From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Oct 1 01:31:19 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 20:31:12 -0500 Message-ID: <541b3bc9-46a2-6ac7-d5fd-b906cdd29990@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5434598141746865211==" --===============5434598141746865211== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/30/24 16:23, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > One application for devices like that would be vacuum tube power amplifiers= , to delay the high voltage power supply until after the heater current has b= een on for a bit. > > paul > >> On Sep 30, 2024, at 5:21 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like vacuum tubes >> with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) and 12C5 (five >> seconds). >> Another place they were used (but I think 60 second delay)=20 was in the IBM 2314 disk system, where these delayed loading=20 the heads until the drive had been spinning for 60 seconds=20 or so. Jon --===============5434598141746865211==-- From bobalan@sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 1 02:03:45 2024 From: Bob Rosenbloom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 19:03:36 -0700 Message-ID: <0739eb88-dcac-4a4e-9be9-dcde2a666313@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <541b3bc9-46a2-6ac7-d5fd-b906cdd29990@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1702240254403321178==" --===============1702240254403321178== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/30/2024 6:31 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 9/30/24 16:23, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> One application for devices like that would be vacuum tube power >> amplifiers, to delay the high voltage power supply until after the >> heater current has been on for a bit. >> >>     paul >> >>> On Sep 30, 2024, at 5:21 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like vacuum tubes >>> with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) and 12C5 (five >>> seconds). >>> > Another place they were used (but I think 60 second delay) was in the > IBM 2314 disk system, where these delayed loading the heads until the > drive had been spinning for 60 seconds or so. > > Jon > Now that's an actual antique computer application, though I'm surprised they didn't use a solid state implementation. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org --===============1702240254403321178==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 1 02:12:06 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 20:11:58 -0600 Message-ID: <41a1044f-e047-452e-81c0-8207a0538fde@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8570189753073891729==" --===============8570189753073891729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-09-30 5:51 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Another way to use them is to switch a series resistor out of the power sup= ply input after a few seconds; that is good for capacitor-input filters where= the inrush current is otherwise very high. The 5 second delay may be just t= hat; it seems a bit short for the pre-heat delay. >=20 > paul That works nice for both audio and digital power supplies. One can add a relay to latch the output after the time delay, as well as=20 turn off the power to the time delay. 5 seconds sounds good for a core memory power supply. Ben. --===============8570189753073891729==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 1 02:16:25 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 20:16:16 -0600 Message-ID: <3457fa4a-f606-4c8a-b88b-fcbdc2bb7353@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <0739eb88-dcac-4a4e-9be9-dcde2a666313@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5345294638725792585==" --===============5345294638725792585== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-09-30 8:03 p.m., Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > On 9/30/2024 6:31 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 9/30/24 16:23, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> One application for devices like that would be vacuum tube power >>> amplifiers, to delay the high voltage power supply until after the >>> heater current has been on for a bit. >>> >>>     paul >>> >>>> On Sep 30, 2024, at 5:21 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like vacuum tubes >>>> with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) and 12C5 (five >>>> seconds). >>>> >> Another place they were used (but I think 60 second delay) was in the >> IBM 2314 disk system, where these delayed loading the heads until the >> drive had been spinning for 60 seconds or so. >> >> Jon >> > Now that's an actual antique computer application, though I'm surprised > they didn't use a solid state implementation. > > Bob Why would do something so new? We all know keypunches back then came with coding forms and the odd monkey. > Ben, ducking the thrown banana. --===============5345294638725792585==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Oct 1 14:54:51 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 09:54:43 -0500 Message-ID: <43b021be-9c40-a519-cb34-838c30d6529c@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <0739eb88-dcac-4a4e-9be9-dcde2a666313@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4269977044681786601==" --===============4269977044681786601== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/30/24 21:03, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > On 9/30/2024 6:31 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 9/30/24 16:23, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> One application for devices like that would be vacuum >>> tube power amplifiers, to delay the high voltage power >>> supply until after the heater current has been on for a >>> bit. >>> >>>     paul >>> >>>> On Sep 30, 2024, at 5:21 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like >>>> vacuum tubes >>>> with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) >>>> and 12C5 (five >>>> seconds). >>>> >> Another place they were used (but I think 60 second >> delay) was in the IBM 2314 disk system, where these >> delayed loading the heads until the drive had been >> spinning for 60 seconds or so. >> >> Jon >> > Now that's an actual antique computer application, though > I'm surprised they didn't use a solid state implementation. > > Bob > The IBM 2314 was REALLY low tech.  There was almost no electronics in the drives!  They has a read amp, a write amp and a hydraulic "stepper motor" with mechanical detents that moved the heads in response to step in and step out pulses from the control unit. IBM did know how to distill things down to the absolute minimum. Remember, this was developed in the early 1960s and first shipped with the first 360's in 1965. Jon --===============4269977044681786601==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Oct 1 15:11:38 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 11:11:15 -0400 Message-ID: <85D8F288-9ACE-4696-AC85-9D45608881A7@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <43b021be-9c40-a519-cb34-838c30d6529c@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5445955570972471685==" --===============5445955570972471685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 1, 2024, at 10:54 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >> ... > The IBM 2314 was REALLY low tech. There was almost no electronics in the d= rives! They has a read amp, a write amp and a hydraulic "stepper motor" with= mechanical detents that moved the heads in response to step in and step out = pulses from the control unit. >=20 > IBM did know how to distill things down to the absolute minimum. Remember, = this was developed in the early 1960s and first shipped with the first 360's = in 1965. I haven't met a 2314, but I did see 2311 drives on a 360/44 and 1311 drives o= n a 1620. The 1311 is definitely hydraulic -- I learned that when ours sprun= g a leak and sprayed hydraulic fluid all over the system pack. It got fixed = perfectly, though. So that drive technology may be older than 1965. paul --===============5445955570972471685==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Oct 1 15:49:20 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 15:30:45 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <43b021be-9c40-a519-cb34-838c30d6529c@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3750135562112848133==" --===============3750135562112848133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/1/24 07:54, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > The IBM 2314 was REALLY low tech.  There was almost no electronics in > the drives!  They has a read amp, a write amp and a hydraulic "stepper > motor" with mechanical detents that moved the heads in response to step > in and step out pulses from the control unit. > > IBM did know how to distill things down to the absolute minimum. > Remember, this was developed in the early 1960s and first shipped with > the first 360's in 1965. Hydraulic positioning was used in several early drives. The Bryant 4000/CDC 6603, for example, had containers to catch leaks. ISTR that the head assemblies weighed about 8 lbs each. The Univac FASTRAND drum, on the other hand, used electromagnetic positioning, employing a mechanical lever adder to come up with a binary position. -C --===============3750135562112848133==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Tue Oct 1 16:21:48 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Nintendo is 135 years old Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 11:21:32 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3233386258431540609==" --===============3233386258431540609== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Will my Nintendo Switch account still be valid when I'm 135 years old? I've started to wonder when digital accounts start to be locked due to "DOB >> 120" :| On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 3:45=E2=80=AFPM Joe George via cctalk wrote: > > I have an alternate-nerdness fondness for playing cards and unusual card > decks, and Hanafuda cards qualify. I have several decks of Nintendo > Hanafuda cards, they still make them. > > Joe > > > On Sep 29, 2024, at 8:33 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > Quite classic. You would not have believed it - they were not making > > consoles when they started. > > > > [ > > > > Nintendo at 135: Key moments in gaming history > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/articles/c79n845rrj0o > > > > ] > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Tomasz Rola > > > > -- > > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > > ** ** > > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** > > --===============3233386258431540609==-- From uban@ubanproductions.com Tue Oct 1 16:45:59 2024 From: Tom Uban To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NTE is dead Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 11:45:54 -0500 Message-ID: <3ab9620d-233e-46d2-a55c-704645992f1b@ubanproductions.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7516064290205699088==" --===============7516064290205699088== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My local electronics store, which still sells packets of components, informs = me that NTE has gone=20 out of business. They are the last company which sold to these stores as far = as I know, so now my=20 local store has had to resort to buying bulk from places like digikey and the= n packaging the=20 components themselves. I should note that my local store's primary business at this point is install= ing AV systems into=20 peoples homes and repairing old stereo equipment, which means they are likely= the largest consumer=20 of their own stock, but when I need a resistor, transistor, connector, etc, t= his is my goto place. I=20 have been buying from them for about 56 years. --tom RIP NTE --===============7516064290205699088==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Oct 1 17:23:14 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTE is dead Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 13:23:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3ab9620d-233e-46d2-a55c-704645992f1b@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0932203913877143755==" --===============0932203913877143755== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 1, 2024, at 12:45 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > My local electronics store, which still sells packets of components, inform= s me that NTE has gone out of business. They are the last company which sold = to these stores as far as I know, so now my local store has had to resort to = buying bulk from places like digikey and then packaging the components themse= lves. >=20 > I should note that my local store's primary business at this point is insta= lling AV systems into peoples homes and repairing old stereo equipment, which= means they are likely the largest consumer of their own stock, but when I ne= ed a resistor, transistor, connector, etc, this is my goto place. I have been= buying from them for about 56 years. >=20 > --tom >=20 > RIP NTE Too bad. Note though that Digikey will happily sell almost anything in quant= ity 1. It's definitely more expensive, and for things like resistors etc. I = often buy 100 for that reason, but it's a valid option. =20 paul --===============0932203913877143755==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Oct 1 17:26:31 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 13:26:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7057533801116622872==" --===============7057533801116622872== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 1, 2024, at 11:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 10/1/24 07:54, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> The IBM 2314 was REALLY low tech. There was almost no electronics in >> the drives! They has a read amp, a write amp and a hydraulic "stepper >> motor" with mechanical detents that moved the heads in response to step >> in and step out pulses from the control unit. >>=20 >> IBM did know how to distill things down to the absolute minimum. >> Remember, this was developed in the early 1960s and first shipped with >> the first 360's in 1965. >=20 > Hydraulic positioning was used in several early drives. The Bryant > 4000/CDC 6603, for example, had containers to catch leaks. ISTR that > the head assemblies weighed about 8 lbs each. For that matter, the first hard drive (IBM RAMAC) used hydraulic positioners,= for both cylinder and track select I believe. It had only one or two heads,= so track switching was a mechanical operation and actually a lot more expens= ive than changing cylinders. > The Univac FASTRAND drum, on the other hand, used electromagnetic > positioning, employing a mechanical lever adder to come up with a binary > position. >=20 > -C Interesting. It reminds me of technology used on PLATO terminals, both in th= e microfiche projector option and in the audio disc player: a set of pneumati= c pistons with stroke length scaled 1:2:4:8 so you could get any of 16 positi= ons by sending a 4 bit address to a set of 4 valves. It's the only place I'v= e ever seen where computer terminals had connections to pneumatic supply line= s. paul --===============7057533801116622872==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Oct 1 17:32:03 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTE is dead Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 12:31:53 -0500 Message-ID: <12001982-b98b-9f93-ee31-854c77f99c3a@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <3ab9620d-233e-46d2-a55c-704645992f1b@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8682904306436269074==" --===============8682904306436269074== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/1/24 11:45, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > > I should note that my local store's primary business at > this point is installing AV systems into peoples homes and > repairing old stereo equipment, which means they are > likely the largest consumer of their own stock, but when I > need a resistor, transistor, connector, etc, this is my > goto place. I have been buying from them for about 56 years. And, you are very lucky!  We used to have two electronic stores, and now both have closed up.  If you need a connector, length of cable, or something of that sort, there is no place local to get it! Jon --===============8682904306436269074==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Tue Oct 1 20:09:21 2024 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTE is dead Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:09:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3ab9620d-233e-46d2-a55c-704645992f1b@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4363155172928068601==" --===============4363155172928068601== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 1:06=E2=80=AFPM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > My local electronics store, which still sells packets of components, inform= s me that NTE has gone > out of business. That news is sadly true. Heard it back in August. -ethan --===============4363155172928068601==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 22:29:16 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTE is dead Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 18:28:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <12001982-b98b-9f93-ee31-854c77f99c3a@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7844247435378118117==" --===============7844247435378118117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/1/2024 1:31 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > > And, you are very lucky!  We used to have two electronic stores, and now > both have closed up. When I was a kid we had a dozen. 8 Retail and 4 wholesale (but sold singles and small quantities to the public). Today, we also have none. Radio shack was the last and we all know where they went. bill --===============7844247435378118117==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Tue Oct 1 23:38:55 2024 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:29:47 -0700 Message-ID: <00b701db1459$ed5028e0$c7f07aa0$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <43b021be-9c40-a519-cb34-838c30d6529c@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5080261219362965430==" --===============5080261219362965430== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson =20 >>>> I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like vacuum=20 >>>> tubes with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) and=20 >>>> 12C5 (five seconds). >>>> >> Another place they were used (but I think 60 second >> delay) was in the IBM 2314 disk system, where these delayed loading=20 >> the heads until the drive had been spinning for 60 seconds or so. >> >> Jon >> > Now that's an actual antique computer application, though I'm=20 > surprised they didn't use a solid state implementation. > > Bob > The IBM 2314 was REALLY low tech. There was almost no electronics in the dri= ves! They has a read amp, a write amp and a hydraulic "stepper motor" with m= echanical detents that moved the heads in response to step in and step out pu= lses from the control unit. IBM did know how to distill things down to the absolute minimum. Remember, th= is was developed in the early 1960s and first shipped with the first 360's in= 1965. Jon Comment-------------------------------------- I wouldn't call the 2314 low tech - it was the highest areal density at the t= ime, a breakthru with ferrite heads and very low cost to manufacture. Note I= said cost, its profit margin was enormous, in part by putting as much expens= ive electronics as possible in the control unit. =F0=9F=98=8A Actually the 2314 did not ship with the first 360's in 1965; it was announced= in April 1965 about 1 year after the 360 announcement and AFAICT from Bitsav= ers document dates it didn't ship until late 1966, which FWIW, at the Compute= r History Museum, 1966 is also the date for first shipment of the 2414 and it= s ferrite heads. BTW the hydraulic actuator design goes back to the 1311 - m= ore or less the same actuator in the 1311, 2311 and 2314. Tom --===============5080261219362965430==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Oct 1 23:55:35 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 18:55:24 -0500 Message-ID: <2f11e6b8-434e-7eb8-ec88-678d80610e26@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <00b701db1459$ed5028e0$c7f07aa0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4963750450210040175==" --===============4963750450210040175== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/1/24 18:29, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > I wouldn't call the 2314 low tech - it was the highest areal density at the= time, a breakthru with ferrite heads and very low cost to manufacture. Note= I said cost, its profit margin was enormous, in part by putting as much expe= nsive electronics as possible in the control unit. =F0=9F=98=8A > Actually the 2314 did not ship with the first 360's in 1965; it was announc= ed in April 1965 about 1 year after the 360 announcement and AFAICT from Bits= avers document dates it didn't ship until late 1966, which FWIW, at the Compu= ter History Museum, 1966 is also the date for first shipment of the 2414 and = its ferrite heads. BTW the hydraulic actuator design goes back to the 1311 -= more or less the same actuator in the 1311, 2311 and 2314. Well, yes, and in the days of SLT logic, everything was=20 expensive.=C2=A0 So, putting as much of the functions in the=20 control unit rather than the drive was good.=C2=A0 But, one thing=20 that this mindset caused was that they could not have one=20 drive seeking while another drive was transferring.=C2=A0 The=20 entire operation, cylinder seek, rotational seek and data=20 transfer was all one atomic operation.=C2=A0 That really killed=20 the throughput of the whole disk system.=C2=A0 The reason was=20 that the IBM developers came from systems like 7070 and 7090=20 where all permanent storage was on tape, and they didn't=20 quite "get" how central disks were going to be to the 360=20 systems.=C2=A0 They had the CKD scheme, where you could search=20 several cylinders for a match of some arbitrary field in the=20 DATA portion of a sector, but this resulted in massive=20 slowdown of the system, as it tied up not only the drive,=20 but the controller and the channel as well!=C2=A0 Thus the need=20 for the database system, which would make selecting the=20 desired record much faster. I didn't mean that the 2314 DISK was low tech, just that the=20 drive, itself, was quite spartan. Jon --===============4963750450210040175==-- From thedestructionchannel2000@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 01:26:39 2024 From: CJ Reha To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTE is dead Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 21:26:23 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3ab9620d-233e-46d2-a55c-704645992f1b@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2120472787514333150==" --===============2120472787514333150== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The scary part for me is their entire datasheet archive was apparently wiped without any backups. That was crucial for finding rough, =E2=80=9Cclose enough=E2=80=9D specs for house numbered parts that cross referenced to somet= hing they made. I have some physical catalogs but not sure if they cover everything=E2=80=A6 CJ On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 12:46=E2=80=AFPM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > My local electronics store, which still sells packets of components, > informs me that NTE has gone > out of business. They are the last company which sold to these stores as > far as I know, so now my > local store has had to resort to buying bulk from places like digikey and > then packaging the > components themselves. > > I should note that my local store's primary business at this point is > installing AV systems into > peoples homes and repairing old stereo equipment, which means they are > likely the largest consumer > of their own stock, but when I need a resistor, transistor, connector, > etc, this is my goto place. I > have been buying from them for about 56 years. > > --tom > > RIP NTE > --===============2120472787514333150==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Oct 2 01:57:32 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTE is dead Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 21:57:24 -0400 Message-ID: <251879142.9586685.1727834244607@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0335137477243169156==" --===============0335137477243169156== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 10/01/2024 9:26 PM EDT CJ Reha via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 >=20 > The scary part for me is their entire datasheet archive was apparently > wiped without any backups. That was crucial for finding rough, =E2=80=9Cclo= se > enough=E2=80=9D specs for house numbered parts that cross referenced to som= ething > they made. I have some physical catalogs but not sure if they cover > everything=E2=80=A6 >=20 > CJ > Some are on archive.org, such as this one: https://archive.org/details/nteelectronicsse00unse Will You just can't beat the person who never gives up. Babe Ruth --===============0335137477243169156==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Wed Oct 2 02:13:27 2024 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTE is dead Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 19:02:51 -0700 Message-ID: <4E2A28FC-B738-424E-A5D3-B46B59FD0528@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1623288549787057273==" --===============1623288549787057273== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Newark Electronics shows free cross reference software available=20 .https://www.newark.com/pdfs/datasheets/NTE/NTE4049.pdf. =20 Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Oct 1, 2024, at 6:26 PM, CJ Reha via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThe scary part for me is their entire datasheet archive was appare= ntly > wiped without any backups. That was crucial for finding rough, =E2=80=9Cclo= se > enough=E2=80=9D specs for house numbered parts that cross referenced to som= ething > they made. I have some physical catalogs but not sure if they cover > everything=E2=80=A6 >=20 > CJ >=20 >> On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 12:46=E2=80=AFPM Tom Uban via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >> My local electronics store, which still sells packets of components, >> informs me that NTE has gone >> out of business. They are the last company which sold to these stores as >> far as I know, so now my >> local store has had to resort to buying bulk from places like digikey and >> then packaging the >> components themselves. >>=20 >> I should note that my local store's primary business at this point is >> installing AV systems into >> peoples homes and repairing old stereo equipment, which means they are >> likely the largest consumer >> of their own stock, but when I need a resistor, transistor, connector, >> etc, this is my goto place. I >> have been buying from them for about 56 years. >>=20 >> --tom >>=20 >> RIP NTE >>=20 >=20 --===============1623288549787057273==-- From ethan@757.org Wed Oct 2 02:15:10 2024 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTE is dead Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 22:08:17 -0400 Message-ID: <6be4b6da-9a8-a7bf-d712-78a0523aedbe@757.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8P221MB146941BDE72ACE09CB6B0EACED772=40LV8P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1469=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1825526326982496289==" --===============1825526326982496289== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When I was a kid we had a dozen. 8 Retail and 4 wholesale (but > sold singles and small quantities to the public). Today, we > also have none. Radio shack was the last and we all know > where they went. > bill When I was a kid growing up in Southeastern Virginia I remember one of the electronics parts dealers was NTE. I used to hate it when they would cross reference the real replacement part to some NTE kind of a like. I hated that. I wanted the right part with the same number as the original from a name brand. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============1825526326982496289==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 03:11:09 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 93448PC ROM tube Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 23:10:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1978153644602463602==" --===============1978153644602463602== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a tube of 93448PC ROMS labeled as such: 502991-01 4000-41FF 502991-02 4200-43FF 502991-03 4400-45FF 502991-04 4600-47FF 502991-04 4600-47FF 504236 PAL RM-DPS 1600-14FF 1 unmarked Any guess as to what these went to? Anyone recognize these numbers? Commodore B Series? Throwin' a hail mary pass here Bill --===============1978153644602463602==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 03:23:53 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 23:23:36 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3496868972230370460==" --===============3496868972230370460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have accumulated various Dysan testers, disks and manuals. Does anyone still use these? I dont recall anyone mentioning use of this tool set but obviously Dysan sold a lot of their testers Bill --===============3496868972230370460==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Wed Oct 2 03:37:58 2024 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 03:37:49 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7026810168336300663==" --===============7026810168336300663== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill, I would sure like to find something for My Shugart 851s! Mark -----Original Message----- From: Bill Degnan via cctalk =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 8:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: [cctalk] Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers I have accumulated various Dysan testers, disks and manuals. Does anyone sti= ll use these? I dont recall anyone mentioning use of this tool set but obvio= usly Dysan sold a lot of their testers Bill --===============7026810168336300663==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 03:53:16 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 23:52:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV3PR22MB4439B0E49879643C297A52CBC9702=40LV3PR22MB?= =?utf-8?q?4439=2Enamprd22=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8593201970262663310==" --===============8593201970262663310== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What *do* people use to align a shugart drives? I have been ok adjusting the speed of drives but I dont adjust alignments.. I plan to learn more about the Dysan tester gear because this seems to be a popular repair module. Bigger picture, I have been sorting tools, testers, cables, etc. going through everything to better organize stuff so I dont accidentally dont double purchase or needlessly hold multiple items when I only need one of something. On Tue, Oct 1, 2024, 11:37 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Bill, > I would sure like to find something for My Shugart 851s! > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Degnan via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 8:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Bill Degnan > Subject: [cctalk] Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers > > I have accumulated various Dysan testers, disks and manuals. Does anyone > still use these? I dont recall anyone mentioning use of this tool set but > obviously Dysan sold a lot of their testers Bill > --===============8593201970262663310==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Wed Oct 2 04:02:09 2024 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 04:01:57 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7808657402309929891==" --===============7808657402309929891== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I general I just leave them be, not having a real alignment disk. One that I= more or less Brought back to life from damages I used an almost new commercially produced = disk for A half-arsed "Alignment". Interchangeability is, of course, not ideal..... -----Original Message----- From: Bill Degnan via cctalk =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 8:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers What *do* people use to align a shugart drives? I have been ok adjusting the= speed of drives but I dont adjust alignments.. I plan to learn more about th= e Dysan tester gear because this seems to be a popular repair module. Bigger= picture, I have been sorting tools, testers, cables, etc. going through everything to better organize stuff so I dont accidentally dont= double purchase or needlessly hold multiple items when I only need one of so= mething. On Tue, Oct 1, 2024, 11:37 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < cctalk(a)classicc= mp.org> wrote: > Hi Bill, > I would sure like to find something for My Shugart 851s! > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Degnan via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 8:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <=20 > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Bill Degnan > Subject: [cctalk] Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers > > I have accumulated various Dysan testers, disks and manuals. Does=20 > anyone still use these? I dont recall anyone mentioning use of this=20 > tool set but obviously Dysan sold a lot of their testers Bill > --===============7808657402309929891==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 04:08:28 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 00:08:11 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV3PR22MB44394C9A1B2E99B8DA790E59C9702=40LV3PR22MB?= =?utf-8?q?4439=2Enamprd22=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6122811857168356854==" --===============6122811857168356854== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I assume it's not easy to copy alignment disks, but I guess I will find out. On Wed, Oct 2, 2024, 12:02 AM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I general I just leave them be, not having a real alignment disk. > One that I more or less > Brought back to life from damages I used an almost new commercially > produced disk for > A half-arsed "Alignment". Interchangeability is, of course, not ideal..... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Degnan via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 8:53 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Bill Degnan > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers > > What *do* people use to align a shugart drives? I have been ok adjusting > the speed of drives but I dont adjust alignments.. I plan to learn more > about the Dysan tester gear because this seems to be a popular repair > module. Bigger picture, I have been sorting tools, testers, cables, etc. > going through everything to better organize stuff so I dont accidentally > dont double purchase or needlessly hold multiple items when I only need one > of something. > > On Tue, Oct 1, 2024, 11:37 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi Bill, > > I would sure like to find something for My Shugart 851s! > > > > Mark > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bill Degnan via cctalk > > Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 8:24 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Bill Degnan > > Subject: [cctalk] Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers > > > > I have accumulated various Dysan testers, disks and manuals. Does > > anyone still use these? I dont recall anyone mentioning use of this > > tool set but obviously Dysan sold a lot of their testers Bill > > > --===============6122811857168356854==-- From donald@donaldwhittemore.com Wed Oct 2 13:28:00 2024 From: "donald donaldwhittemore.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 00:06:31 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5727725079498796930==" --===============5727725079498796930== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I rue the day I lost an eBay auction. It was a PR photo with a good looking m= odel mounting a disk in an open drawer of a 2314. If you looked carefully you= would see she was holding a 2311 disk. The 2314 pack was probably too heavy = to use for all the repeated takes the photographer wanted. =F0=9F=98=8A --===============5727725079498796930==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Wed Oct 2 14:01:52 2024 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 07:01:46 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2970088244946857923==" --===============2970088244946857923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 2 Oct 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I assume it's not easy to copy alignment disks, but I guess I will find out. > It's actually not possible to copy them. Not for any "copy protection" reasons, but just the very nature of the analog signal laid down on the disk. No "regular" disk drive can recreate the signal. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============2970088244946857923==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Oct 2 14:12:06 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 10:11:57 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8045750511694932866==" --===============8045750511694932866== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 1, 2024, at 8:06 PM, donald donaldwhittemore.com via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I rue the day I lost an eBay auction. It was a PR photo with a good looking= model mounting a disk in an open drawer of a 2314. If you looked carefully y= ou would see she was holding a 2311 disk. The 2314 pack was probably too heav= y to use for all the repeated takes the photographer wanted. =F0=9F=98=8A Funny. Drawer? I thought 2314s are top loaders, like the DEC RP03 (which looks abou= t the same including having a look-alike pack) and the RP04/05/06 series. "D= rawer" sounds like the 3330, or DEC drives like the RL01. paul --===============8045750511694932866==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Oct 2 14:20:13 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 14:09:38 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3244402713874863397==" --===============3244402713874863397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > What do people use to align a shugart drives? The appropriate alignment diskette, an *analog* oscilloscope, and a program t= o step the drive around and load heads. For most drives, that's a PC and Imag= eDisk, but we use a DeRamp FDC+ and AFEXER for Pertec drives in MITS disk sys= tems. Seems we're one of the few places that will still do it for other people. I k= now of two other hobbyists who can align their own drives, but neither will d= o it for other people anymore, I think. > I plan to learn more about the Dysan tester gear because this seems to be a= popular repair > module. Be *very* *careful* mounting an alignment diskette in a drive. If you frag it= , there's no getting it back. They can't be written using a regular drive. Wh= en repairing a drive, I run it in whatever alignment it is, and read/write a = lot of test data to make sure it's not about to wreck my alignment diskette w= ith an errant write. After it is 100% functional, then it gets aligned. Thanks, Jonathan --===============3244402713874863397==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 14:20:17 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 10:19:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0264106520662881095==" --===============0264106520662881095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 10:01 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 2 Oct 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > I assume it's not easy to copy alignment disks, but I guess I will find > out. > > > > It's actually not possible to copy them. Not for any "copy protection" > reasons, but just the very nature of the analog signal laid down on the > disk. No "regular" disk drive can recreate the signal. > > g. > > > Do you have a Dysan disk tester? b --===============0264106520662881095==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 14:25:20 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 10:25:01 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CyDU4ku8i26vdnG7d1cppd8P50N8o2kUGlQJWq3IUe9JjWEYTvk?= =?utf-8?q?9U-Vipq5KBYiLR9WqrKyzgg2aGnGYEx2FIT8csQxLB6HB=5FAghV2b7Pl3k=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8505391758127138933==" --===============8505391758127138933== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 10:20 AM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > What do people use to align a shugart drives? > > The appropriate alignment diskette, an *analog* oscilloscope, and a > program to step the drive around and load heads. For most drives, that's a > PC and ImageDisk, but we use a DeRamp FDC+ and AFEXER for Pertec drives in > MITS disk systems. > > Seems we're one of the few places that will still do it for other people. > I know of two other hobbyists who can align their own drives, but neither > will do it for other people anymore, I think. > > > I plan to learn more about the Dysan tester gear because this seems to > be a popular repair > > module. > > Be *very* *careful* mounting an alignment diskette in a drive. If you frag > it, there's no getting it back. They can't be written using a regular > drive. When repairing a drive, I run it in whatever alignment it is, and > read/write a lot of test data to make sure it's not about to wreck my > alignment diskette with an errant write. After it is 100% functional, then > it gets aligned. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > Looks like I need to take this one step at a time, thanks Jon B --===============8505391758127138933==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Oct 2 15:01:13 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 10:01:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7170800809656410797==" --===============7170800809656410797== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/2/24 09:11, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Oct 1, 2024, at 8:06 PM, donald donaldwhittemore.com via cctalk wrote: >> >> I rue the day I lost an eBay auction. It was a PR photo with a good lookin= g model mounting a disk in an open drawer of a 2314. If you looked carefully = you would see she was holding a 2311 disk. The 2314 pack was probably too hea= vy to use for all the repeated takes the photographer wanted. =F0=9F=98=8A > Funny. > > Drawer? I thought 2314s are top loaders, like the DEC RP03 (which looks ab= out the same including having a look-alike pack) and the RP04/05/06 series. = "Drawer" sounds like the 3330, or DEC drives like the RL01. You spin down the drive, wait a while, pull up on the big=20 blue handle and roll the drive out of the cabinet.=C2=A0 This=20 reveals the top of the pack.=C2=A0 You then lower the cover onto=20 the pack, twist the handle to jack the pack off the spindle,=20 and lift it out. Reverse process to load new pack, then roll=20 drive back into cabinet and flip switch.=C2=A0 So, the drive is=20 essentially a drawer in a cabinet of 9 drives.=C2=A0 look up on=20 google to see what the whole system looked like. Jon --===============7170800809656410797==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 15:30:12 2024 From: David Wade To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 16:30:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6195590827786459246==" --===============6195590827786459246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/10/2024 16:01, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/2/24 09:11, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Oct 1, 2024, at 8:06 PM, donald donaldwhittemore.com via cctalk=20 >>> wrote: >>> >>> I rue the day I lost an eBay auction. It was a PR photo with a good=20 >>> looking model mounting a disk in an open drawer of a 2314. If you=20 >>> looked carefully you would see she was holding a 2311 disk. The 2314=20 >>> pack was probably too heavy to use for all the repeated takes the=20 >>> photographer wanted. =F0=9F=98=8A >> Funny. >> >> Drawer?=C2=A0 I thought 2314s are top loaders, like the DEC RP03 (which=20 >> looks about the same including having a look-alike pack) and the=20 >> RP04/05/06 series.=C2=A0 "Drawer" sounds like the 3330, or DEC drives like= =20 >> the RL01. > > You spin down the drive, wait a while, pull up on the big blue handle=20 > and roll the drive out of the cabinet.=C2=A0 This reveals the top of the=20 > pack.=C2=A0 You then lower the cover onto the pack, twist the handle to=20 > jack the pack off the spindle, and lift it out. Reverse process to=20 > load new pack, then roll drive back into cabinet and flip switch.=C2=A0 So,= =20 > the drive is essentially a drawer in a cabinet of 9 drives.=C2=A0 look up=20 > on google to see what the whole system looked like. > > Jon > There is a nice picture here:- https://web.archive.org/web/20230822210411/http://history.cs.ncl.ac.uk/annive= rsaries/40th/images/ibm360_672/29.html Dave --===============6195590827786459246==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Wed Oct 2 15:51:12 2024 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 08:51:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2304008742899005213==" --===============2304008742899005213== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2 Oct 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 10:01 AM geneb via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Wed, 2 Oct 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I assume it's not easy to copy alignment disks, but I guess I will find >> out. >>> >> >> It's actually not possible to copy them. Not for any "copy protection" >> reasons, but just the very nature of the analog signal laid down on the >> disk. No "regular" disk drive can recreate the signal. >> > Do you have a Dysan disk tester? No. I used to have a number of Shgart 5.25" alignment disks, and I think one made by Dysan. I've got a couple of Lynx drive excercisers around here somewhere as well. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============2304008742899005213==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 15:51:28 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 16:51:11 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0238112591355230277==" --===============0238112591355230277== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 5:25 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I assume it's not easy to copy alignment disks, but I guess I will find out. It's impossible to create an alignment disk on a standard floppy drive. It has eccntrically-recorded tracks for one thing If you manage to get an original, treat it with great care. Use it as little as possible (remember disks do wear out and you're continually reading the same area of the disk when doing an alignment). NEVER put it in a drive that may not be working properly. Remember that if the alignment is not way off, a misaligned drive can format, write to, and read from a normal blank disk. That disk may not be readable in other drives but it will be readable in the misaligned one. So until a drive passes that test (meaning things like the write driver is not stuck on, which will erase any disk you insert) don't put the alignment disk in. -tony --===============0238112591355230277==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 16:02:10 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 17:01:55 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7390538029605078384==" --===============7390538029605078384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 4:53 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > What *do* people use to align a shugart drives? I only ever try to align a drive using an 'catseye' alignment disk. I have a little drive exerciser unit badged 'RS'[1] which will let me move the head around to seek to the alignment pattern track on the disk, etc. I can use that with a normal 'scope. [1] One of the large industrial electronic component suppliers in the UK, been around for not quite 90 years. 50 years ago they were 'Radiospares' which gives an idea how they started. But more often I use a thing called a 'Microtest'. This is a module containing an 8035 microcontroller, ADC and a serial port. It works with any IBM PC (I think the minimum spec is 256K RAM, any video card even MDA, and an RS232 port). I use an old Amstrad PPC640 'laptop' where the second floppy drive has been replaced by a DC37 socket. Basically you connect the drive-under-test to the PC as B:. Then plug the Microtest unit into the PC serial port and run the Microtest software. You select the drive type from a menu, it then shows a layout of the drive PCB (using the IBM line-drawing characters) showing where to connect 5 leads from the microtest unit (ground, index, track 0 sensor, differential outputs of the read amplifier). You can then do various tests -- spindle speed head alignment, index position, track 0 sensor position, etc) some of which use the standard catseye alignment disk. -tony --===============7390538029605078384==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Wed Oct 2 19:15:54 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTE is dead Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 21:15:31 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <12001982-b98b-9f93-ee31-854c77f99c3a@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9098239819061534200==" --===============9098239819061534200== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Oct 01, 2024 at 12:31:53PM -0500, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: [...] > And, you are very lucky! We used to have two electronic stores, and now > both have closed up. If you need a connector, length of cable, or > something of that sort, there is no place local to get it! I can't even find a decent lightbulb in this place, population 76,804! It claims to be a city, but if I'm having difficulty buying anything brighter than 470lm ("40W equivalent", my arse they are) and 2700K ("we hate the red-green colourblind"), or indeed non-potboiler books, or exotic herbs and spices such as garlic and pepper, then I don't think it counts as much more than an overgrown village with delusions. Mail-order is a lifesaver, as is the occasional visit to Zeedijk and environs in Amsterdam for some serious stocking-up of curry ingredients. Fortunately, there are still a few proper old-school electronics shops dotted around, and I was somewhat pleased to discover one recently in Den Haag which had a decent cache of those rather obscure DIN-14 connectors used by the Atari ST for its floppy drives. --===============9098239819061534200==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 19:51:36 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 14:51:18 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4072421641331436475==" --===============4072421641331436475== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've never done an alignment but I also don't really understand, can't someone create an image of one or maybe just create one somehow? Then we could use a floppy emulator and "perfect"/golden image to align disks without risking any damage to originals. On Wed, Oct 2, 2024, 4:20 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have accumulated various Dysan testers, disks and manuals. Does anyone > still use these? I dont recall anyone mentioning use of this tool set but > obviously Dysan sold a lot of their testers > Bill > --===============4072421641331436475==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Oct 2 20:20:37 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 20:20:27 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7376806435435993917==" --===============7376806435435993917== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've never done an alignment but I also don't really understand, can't > someone create an image of one or maybe just create one somehow? Then we > could use a floppy emulator and "perfect"/golden image to align disks > without risking any damage to originals. Not possible. The alignment requires a physical diskette. Thanks, Jonathan --===============7376806435435993917==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Wed Oct 2 20:23:40 2024 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 13:15:22 -0700 Message-ID: <007001db1507$d116ac40$734404c0$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <2f11e6b8-434e-7eb8-ec88-678d80610e26@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1424702347882793821==" --===============1424702347882793821== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2024 4:55 PM To: Tom Gardner via cctalk Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts > >On 10/1/24 18:29, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >> >> I wouldn't call the 2314 low tech - it was the highest areal density at th= e time, a breakthru with ferrite heads and very low cost to manufacture. Not= e I said cost, its profit margin was enormous, in part by putting as much exp= ensive electronics as possible in the control unit. ?? >> Actually the 2314 did not ship with the first 360's in 1965; it was announ= ced in April 1965 about 1 year after the 360 announcement and AFAICT from Bit= savers document dates it didn't ship until late 1966, which FWIW, at the Comp= uter History Museum, 1966 is also the date for first shipment of the 2414 and= its ferrite heads. BTW the hydraulic actuator design goes back to the 1311 = - more or less the same actuator in the 1311, 2311 and 2314. > >Well, yes, and in the days of SLT logic, everything was expensive. So, putt= ing as much of the functions in the control unit rather than the drive was go= od. But, one thing that this mindset caused was that they could not have one= drive seeking while another drive was transferring. The entire operation, c= ylinder seek, rotational seek and data transfer was all one atomic operation.= That really killed the throughput of the whole disk system. The reason was= that the IBM developers came from systems like 7070 and 7090 where all perma= nent storage was on tape, and they didn't quite "get" how central disks were = going to be to the 360 systems. They had the CKD scheme, where you could sea= rch several cylinders for a match of some arbitrary field in the DATA portion= of a sector, but this resulted in massive slowdown of the system, as it tied= up not only the drive, but the controller and the channel as well! Thus the= need for the database system, which would make selecting the desired record = much faster. > >I didn't mean that the 2314 DISK was low tech, just that the drive, itself, = was quite spartan. > >Jon > Well, the IBM S/360 IOS implemented a stand-alone seek which allowed seek ove= rlap and pretty much eliminated seek latency. Later on in System/370 they ad= ded disconnected command chaining and RPS which then reduced seek and rotati= onal latency. S/360 and S/370 seemed to run fast enough for many application= s not using database software. At least it appears to me that the need for d= atabase software was driven by other market forces than the performance of S/= 360 and S/370 Channel hardware Tom --===============1424702347882793821==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Oct 2 20:39:38 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 16:39:29 -0400 Message-ID: <8F4C3B54-77C6-4460-A623-B856493717A5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <007001db1507$d116ac40$734404c0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4953527803113736072==" --===============4953527803113736072== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2024 4:55 PM To: Tom Gardner via cctalk Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts >=20 > On 10/1/24 18:29, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> I wouldn't call the 2314 low tech - it was the highest areal density at th= e time, a breakthru with ferrite heads and very low cost to manufacture. Not= e I said cost, its profit margin was enormous, in part by putting as much exp= ensive electronics as possible in the control unit. ?? >> Actually the 2314 did not ship with the first 360's in 1965; it was announ= ced in April 1965 about 1 year after the 360 announcement and AFAICT from Bit= savers document dates it didn't ship until late 1966, which FWIW, at the Comp= uter History Museum, 1966 is also the date for first shipment of the 2414 and= its ferrite heads. BTW the hydraulic actuator design goes back to the 1311 = - more or less the same actuator in the 1311, 2311 and 2314. >=20 > Well, yes, and in the days of SLT logic, everything was expensive. So, put= ting as much of the functions in the control unit rather than the drive was g= ood. But, one thing that this mindset caused was that they could not have on= e drive seeking while another drive was transferring. The entire operation, = cylinder seek, rotational seek and data transfer was all one atomic operation= . That really killed the throughput of the whole disk system. The reason wa= s that the IBM developers came from systems like 7070 and 7090 where all perm= anent storage was on tape, and they didn't quite "get" how central disks were= going to be to the 360 systems. They had the CKD scheme, where you could se= arch several cylinders for a match of some arbitrary field in the DATA portio= n of a sector, but this resulted in massive slowdown of the system, as it tie= d up not only the drive, but the controller and the channel as well! Thus th= e need for the database system, which would make selecting the desired record= much faster. >=20 > I didn't mean that the 2314 DISK was low tech, just that the drive, itself,= was quite spartan. >=20 > Jon For the earlier 1311, lack of overlap made perfect sense. After all, the 162= 0 has no interrupts, no parallelism of any kind: every I/O operation stalls t= he CPU until the operation is finished. (That and the BB instruction are amo= ng the reasons why Dijkstra rejected the 1620.) Speaking of high profit margins: on the 1620, there was an extra cost option = called "direct seek". I don't know if involved a jumper cut or some actual c= ircuitry (an adder, most likely). We didn't have that, and the result is tha= t a seek from cylinder x to cylinder y was done by a full retract to cylinder= 0, followed by a seek out to y. It was amusing to watch the shaking resulti= ng from a simple "incrementing seek test" -- seek to cylinder i for i =3D 0 t= o 99. Those last few seeks would take the better part of a second. paul --===============4953527803113736072==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 2 21:23:54 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 14:23:42 -0700 Message-ID: <48b053ea2a67e4463f1316d6c336df618085e19d.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <8F4C3B54-77C6-4460-A623-B856493717A5@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4286600200711360144==" --===============4286600200711360144== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2024-10-02 at 16:39 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > For the earlier 1311, lack of overlap made perfect sense.  After all, > the 1620 has no interrupts, no parallelism of any kind: every I/O > operation stalls the CPU until the operation is finished.  (That and > the BB instruction are among the reasons why Dijkstra rejected the > 1620.) 1401 had overlap, but as far as I can tell, only for cards and tape. The 1403 had a buffer, and 1401 had instructions to test whether the printer or carriage were busy, but that "overlap" didn't work the same as for cards and tape. I remember the 1620 being called CADET, but not because it was a beginner computer. It didn't have arithmetic hardware. It was done by table lookup. CADET meant "Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try." One of my colleagues exploited the table-based arithmetic to do octal arithmetic for satellite telemetry processing. --===============4286600200711360144==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 2 23:09:02 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 16:04:04 -0700 Message-ID: <094901db151f$6176b2a0$246417e0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2139958313908687841==" --===============2139958313908687841== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I assume it's not easy to copy alignment disks, but I guess I will > find out. > > > > It's actually not possible to copy them. Not for any "copy protection" > reasons, but just the very nature of the analog signal laid down on the > disk. No "regular" disk drive can recreate the signal. > Chuck had actually talked about how to make one on a VCF post a while back: https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/greaseweazle-v4-reading-m1-5-25-fl oppies-on-a-sa400a-drive.1242918/post-1380519. Didn't sound like it was going to be as easy as copying a disk... ;) --===============2139958313908687841==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Oct 3 00:53:22 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 00:36:47 +0000 Message-ID: <2035535e-9afb-4523-8262-17a44099740e@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <094901db151f$6176b2a0$246417e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2462965259219218626==" --===============2462965259219218626== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/2/24 16:04, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>> I assume it's not easy to copy alignment disks, but I guess I will >> find out. >>> >> >> It's actually not possible to copy them. Not for any "copy protection" >> reasons, but just the very nature of the analog signal laid down on the >> disk. No "regular" disk drive can recreate the signal. >> > > Chuck had actually talked about how to make one on a VCF post a while back: > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/greaseweazle-v4-reading-m1-5-25-fl > oppies-on-a-sa400a-drive.1242918/post-1380519. Didn't sound like it was > going to be as easy as copying a disk... ;) No, not easy, but possible, given skill, equipment and patience. --===============2462965259219218626==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 01:24:05 2024 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 01:23:47 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2035535e-9afb-4523-8262-17a44099740e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4384277642081657541==" --===============4384277642081657541== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree, it isn't a copy type operation. It is a creation type operation. The cats eye is created by two tones written such that it is one cycle differ= ent per revolution. Each tone it offset by one half of the track width. Cats eye don't tend to work well with digital sampling scopes unless they hav= e a large sweep buffer and can keep the high speed sample rates at a slow swe= ep speed of a single full revolution. I don't know of any cheap ones that don= 't change the sample rate with the sweep rate. The next one is single tones are placed as burst at varying radial distances.= This has a similar problem for sampling scopes. When used, it looks like ste= ps that one puts the largest step in the center of the rotation, relative to = the index. The track centers can be aligned with magnetic material, similar to what is u= sed for magna-flux work, as far as I know and a micrometer to measure the off= set to the center hole. It would be far easier to create a new disk than to try and copy one. I can't= imagine how one might copy one. Dwight ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2024 5:36 PM To: Ali via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers On 10/2/24 16:04, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>> I assume it's not easy to copy alignment disks, but I guess I will >> find out. >>> >> >> It's actually not possible to copy them. Not for any "copy protection" >> reasons, but just the very nature of the analog signal laid down on the >> disk. No "regular" disk drive can recreate the signal. >> > > Chuck had actually talked about how to make one on a VCF post a while back: > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/greaseweazle-v4-reading-m1-5-25-fl > oppies-on-a-sa400a-drive.1242918/post-1380519. Didn't sound like it was > going to be as easy as copying a disk... ;) No, not easy, but possible, given skill, equipment and patience. --===============4384277642081657541==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Thu Oct 3 01:28:58 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 01:28:44 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB69418A401E9EE8AE4122A7C3A3712=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4259736901272143809==" --===============4259736901272143809== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Cats eye don't tend to work well with digital sampling scopes unless they h= ave a large sweep buffer and can keep the high speed sample rates at a slow s= weep speed of a single full revolution. I don't know of any cheap ones that d= on't change the sample rate with the sweep rate. Even our older Tek DSO does poorly with the analog alignment patterns...not j= ust the "cat's eye" radial alignment pattern, but also the azimuth bars. Inde= x burst is "good enough" on it and sometimes the ability to introduce large, = precise trigger delays makes it the more suitable tool (like for some alignme= nts where we don't have the correct, factory-specified AAD and have to calcul= ate the index offset). The old Tek 465 does excellent though :P Thanks, Jonathan --===============4259736901272143809==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Oct 3 01:39:16 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 18:39:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2035535e-9afb-4523-8262-17a44099740e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7512602889472715831==" --===============7512602889472715831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>> I assume it's not easy to copy alignment disks, but I guess I will >>> find out. >>> >>> It's actually not possible to copy them. Not for any "copy protection" >>> reasons, but just the very nature of the analog signal laid down on the >>> disk. No "regular" disk drive can recreate the signal. >> >> Chuck had actually talked about how to make one on a VCF post a while back: >> https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/greaseweazle-v4-reading-m1-5-25-= fl >> oppies-on-a-sa400a-drive.1242918/post-1380519. Didn't sound like it was >> going to be as easy as copying a disk... ;) On Thu, 3 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > No, not easy, but possible, given skill, equipment and patience. An analog alignment disk would be an impressive task. Something similar to the Dysan Digital Diagnostic Disk would be far more=20 straight forward, starting with modifying a drive to be able to do precise=20 (micrometer) postitioning of the head away from the normal position.=20 Although far less precise and accurate than the analog alignment disk, . .=20 radial alignment is done by seeing which off center tracks the drive can=20 read. and adjusting it until it can read the same amount off-center in=20 both directions. If it can read disks off-center in one direction better=20 than disks off-center in the other diraction, that tells you which=20 direction the head/positioner needs to be moved. The REAL dysan Digital Diagnostic Disk puts sectors on one track=20 progressively further out of position in alternating sides; calling for=20 reading an equal number of even numbered and odd numbered sectors. THAT=20 would be difficult, but recording entire tracks off alignment by a known=20 amount isn't so hard. Some of the old-timers might remember a guy who was on this list a long=20 time ago, who claimed that the "copy-protectin defeating" program that he=20 used could copy ANYTHING, even alignment disks!=20 'course, he was also the one who claimed that his 1990's "Sentry 7?)=20 machine was the one that email had been "invented" on, that Valtrep was=20 the predecessor to FORTRAN, and that he had a tape of OS/2 for the=20 PDP(labeled "PDP OS/2").=20 Some of us speculated that that MIGHT actually be a backup tape from=20 somebody having been using a PDP to develop some software to run under=20 OS/2 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7512602889472715831==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 01:44:09 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 18:43:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1151001096886660384==" --===============1151001096886660384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Oct 2, 2024, 6:39 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Some of the old-timers might remember a guy who was on this list a long > time ago, who claimed that the "copy-protectin defeating" program that he > used could copy ANYTHING, even alignment disks! > 'course, he was also the one who claimed that his 1990's "Sentry 7?) > machine was the one that email had been "invented" on, that Valtrep was > the predecessor to FORTRAN, and that he had a tape of OS/2 for the > PDP(labeled "PDP OS/2"). > Some of us speculated that that MIGHT actually be a backup tape from > somebody having been using a PDP to develop some software to run under > OS/2 > Thanks for the bad flashbacks from 14 years ago. --===============1151001096886660384==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Oct 3 01:54:01 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 18:53:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0954368924932189281==" --===============0954368924932189281== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Some of the old-timers might remember a guy who was on this list a long >> time ago, who claimed that the "copy-protectin defeating" program that he >> used could copy ANYTHING, even alignment disks! On Wed, 2 Oct 2024, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for the bad flashbacks from 14 years ago. Sorry. --===============0954368924932189281==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Oct 3 02:01:26 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 21:01:14 -0500 Message-ID: <50ebe6e7-80d0-45a3-a363-9a54bab0a934@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0971926207240175964==" --===============0971926207240175964== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And or course if you wanted to align the Processor Technology Helios-II drives you were in for an afternoon of "fun". Persci drives with voice coil head steppers and one spindle motor for both drives. On 10/2/2024 8:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Some of the old-timers might remember a guy who was on this list a long >>> time ago, who claimed that the "copy-protectin defeating" program >>> that he >>> used could copy ANYTHING, even alignment disks! > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2024, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> Thanks for the bad flashbacks from 14 years ago. > > Sorry. --===============0971926207240175964==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Oct 3 02:23:17 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 20:20:46 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2035535e-9afb-4523-8262-17a44099740e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5159062095510406383==" --===============5159062095510406383== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Floppy Alignment disks have analog signals of varying intensity recorded=20 on them.=C2=A0 A flux detector like the greaseweazle is a binary=20 (presence/absence) device. It also has off track signals on it.=C2=A0 I don't think there is any way to = create them with anything but a specially modified drive connected to a=20 special controller. On 10/2/2024 7:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/2/24 16:04, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>>> I assume it's not easy to copy alignment disks, but I guess I will >>> find out. >>> It's actually not possible to copy them. Not for any "copy protection" >>> reasons, but just the very nature of the analog signal laid down on the >>> disk. No "regular" disk drive can recreate the signal. >>> >> Chuck had actually talked about how to make one on a VCF post a while back: >> https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/greaseweazle-v4-reading-m1-5-25-= fl >> oppies-on-a-sa400a-drive.1242918/post-1380519. Didn't sound like it was >> going to be as easy as copying a disk... ;) > No, not easy, but possible, given skill, equipment and patience. > --===============5159062095510406383==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Oct 3 02:44:28 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 20:44:25 -0500 Message-ID: <20b5f89c-43db-441e-bbef-ecd9bcef45e8@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSNjr335HkKaJ=5FU9sKJj5gpPD0uDPWyi4aMtWLsBfkSABuUmB?= =?utf-8?q?N0v3aL2=5FWQO3UOATor9Z7t27WN9Ko0qF26-SER4VIZqE7t7imuncYOUiScQ=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8346594784238406117==" --===============8346594784238406117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Tek 465/475 scopes are the best analog scopes ever made, IMHO. And=20 with the best analog triger I think you might be able to get the cat eye to work on a sampling scope=20 by adjusting the persistence.=C2=A0 At least that's what I would do with my=20 PicoScope. On 10/2/2024 8:28 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> Cats eye don't tend to work well with digital sampling scopes unless they = have a large sweep buffer and can keep the high speed sample rates at a slow = sweep speed of a single full revolution. I don't know of any cheap ones that = don't change the sample rate with the sweep rate. > Even our older Tek DSO does poorly with the analog alignment patterns...not= just the "cat's eye" radial alignment pattern, but also the azimuth bars. In= dex burst is "good enough" on it and sometimes the ability to introduce large= , precise trigger delays makes it the more suitable tool (like for some align= ments where we don't have the correct, factory-specified AAD and have to calc= ulate the index offset). > > The old Tek 465 does excellent though :P > > Thanks, > Jonathan --===============8346594784238406117==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Thu Oct 3 06:23:51 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 01:23:42 -0500 Message-ID: <776857998.353464.1727936622215@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB69418A401E9EE8AE4122A7C3A3712=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1489895266139771632==" --===============1489895266139771632== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable question: could somebody (did they at the time) write a program for the apple= ][ to create such a diskette? The apple drive can do half track stepping, a= nd IIRC the signal is written strictly by a timing loop in the program 
--Carey
> On 10/02/2024 8:23 PM CDT dwight via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > I agree, it isn't a copy type operation. It is a creation type operation. > The cats eye is created by two tones written such that it is one cycle diff= erent per revolution. Each tone it offset by one half of the track width. > Cats eye don't tend to work well with digital sampling scopes unless they h= ave a large sweep buffer and can keep the high speed sample rates at a slow s= weep speed of a single full revolution. I don't know of any cheap ones that d= on't change the sample rate with the sweep rate. > The next one is single tones are placed as burst at varying radial distance= s. This has a similar problem for sampling scopes. When used, it looks like s= teps that one puts the largest step in the center of the rotation, relative t= o the index. > The track centers can be aligned with magnetic material, similar to what is= used for magna-flux work, as far as I know and a micrometer to measure the o= ffset to the center hole. > It would be far easier to create a new disk than to try and copy one. I can= 't imagine how one might copy one. > Dwight > --===============1489895266139771632==-- From bluewater@emailtoilet.com Thu Oct 3 07:13:12 2024 From: "bluewater emailtoilet.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 20:52:45 +0000 Message-ID: <4CB3ADD5-4B1C-4B49-80C7-AB81966BD710@emailtoilet.com> In-Reply-To: <8F4C3B54-77C6-4460-A623-B856493717A5@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2202245515460074011==" --===============2202245515460074011== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some PC HD maker offered a drive with a clear top so you could see the heads = moving. I had a friend write a VB program to do random seeks. It was fun to w= atch. Still have the drive and the program. Don=E2=80=99t know if the program= will run in Win 11. =F0=9F=98=8A > On Oct 2, 2024, at 13:39, Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Elson > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2024 4:55 PM > To: Tom Gardner via cctalk > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts >>=20 >>> On 10/1/24 18:29, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> I wouldn't call the 2314 low tech - it was the highest areal density at t= he time, a breakthru with ferrite heads and very low cost to manufacture. No= te I said cost, its profit margin was enormous, in part by putting as much ex= pensive electronics as possible in the control unit. ?? >>> Actually the 2314 did not ship with the first 360's in 1965; it was annou= nced in April 1965 about 1 year after the 360 announcement and AFAICT from Bi= tsavers document dates it didn't ship until late 1966, which FWIW, at the Com= puter History Museum, 1966 is also the date for first shipment of the 2414 an= d its ferrite heads. BTW the hydraulic actuator design goes back to the 1311= - more or less the same actuator in the 1311, 2311 and 2314. >>=20 >> Well, yes, and in the days of SLT logic, everything was expensive. So, pu= tting as much of the functions in the control unit rather than the drive was = good. But, one thing that this mindset caused was that they could not have o= ne drive seeking while another drive was transferring. The entire operation,= cylinder seek, rotational seek and data transfer was all one atomic operatio= n. That really killed the throughput of the whole disk system. The reason w= as that the IBM developers came from systems like 7070 and 7090 where all per= manent storage was on tape, and they didn't quite "get" how central disks wer= e going to be to the 360 systems. They had the CKD scheme, where you could s= earch several cylinders for a match of some arbitrary field in the DATA porti= on of a sector, but this resulted in massive slowdown of the system, as it ti= ed up not only the drive, but the controller and the channel as well! Thus t= he need for the database system, which would make selecting the desired recor= d much faster. >>=20 >> I didn't mean that the 2314 DISK was low tech, just that the drive, itself= , was quite spartan. >>=20 >> Jon >=20 > For the earlier 1311, lack of overlap made perfect sense. After all, the 1= 620 has no interrupts, no parallelism of any kind: every I/O operation stalls= the CPU until the operation is finished. (That and the BB instruction are a= mong the reasons why Dijkstra rejected the 1620.) >=20 > Speaking of high profit margins: on the 1620, there was an extra cost optio= n called "direct seek". I don't know if involved a jumper cut or some actual= circuitry (an adder, most likely). We didn't have that, and the result is t= hat a seek from cylinder x to cylinder y was done by a full retract to cylind= er 0, followed by a seek out to y. It was amusing to watch the shaking resul= ting from a simple "incrementing seek test" -- seek to cylinder i for i =3D 0= to 99. Those last few seeks would take the better part of a second. >=20 > paul >=20 --===============2202245515460074011==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Thu Oct 3 11:11:52 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 11:11:41 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <776857998.353464.1727936622215@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5746852059735306177==" --===============5746852059735306177== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > question: could somebody (did they at the time) write a program for the app= le ][ to create such a diskette? The apple drive can do half track stepping, = and IIRC the signal is written strictly by a timing loop in the program Not really. Merely half-stepping a drive wouldn't be accurate enough, plus yo= u need to be able to drive not-data waveforms into the heads. This is an accomplishable thing nowadays, but it's not something you can do w= ith normal hardware. If I were doing it, I'd replace the stepper in a drive w= ith a servo positioner and use a packaged digital micrometer to determine abs= olute position. The spindle bearings would probably have to be upgraded, but = that's no big deal. We designed, maintained, and calibrated inspection gauges= using the same basic operating principle for automated compliance inspection= tools at a previous job, nowadays there's no "inventing" involved for proble= ms like this, just expensive industrial Lego. One would then drive the heads = with an external power amplifier and a triggerable arbitrary function generat= or. Index alignment would be the only "needs calibrated from an extant AAD" e= lement, as that would be your trigger for the AFG. (Un?)Fortunately AADs are still cheap and plentiful enough that the above exe= rcise is not the cost effective route...so we keep vintage AADs to get out wo= rk done. Thanks, Jonathan --===============5746852059735306177==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 11:42:32 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 12:42:16 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1559233580207940457==" --===============1559233580207940457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 at 02:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Some of the old-timers might remember a guy who was on this list a long > time ago, who claimed that the "copy-protectin defeating" program that he > used could copy ANYTHING, even alignment disks! > 'course, he was also the one who claimed that his 1990's "Sentry 7?) > machine was the one that email had been "invented" on, that Valtrep was > the predecessor to FORTRAN, and that he had a tape of OS/2 for the > PDP(labeled "PDP OS/2"). > Some of us speculated that that MIGHT actually be a backup tape from > somebody having been using a PDP to develop some software to run under > OS/2 Ohhh yes. Dan Gahlinger, I think. That was quite funny. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1559233580207940457==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 12:55:22 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Bonhams Auction: APPLE "TWIGGY" MACINTOSH PROTOTYPE USED IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF DEMONSTRATION SOFTWARE. Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 08:55:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7255000469812194143==" --===============7255000469812194143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://www.bonhams.com/auction/29514/preview-lot/5918785/apple-twiggy-macint= osh-prototype-used-in-the-development-of-demonstration-software-macintosh-per= sonal-computer-apple-computers-inc-cupertino-ca-1983-with-5-14-inch-twiggy-di= sk-drive-with-corresponding-slot-in-front-panel/ APPLE "TWIGGY" MACINTOSH PROTOTYPE USED IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF DEMONSTRATION SOFTWARE. Macintosh Personal Computer, Apple Computers Inc, Cupertino, CA, [1983], with 5-1/4 inch "Twiggy" disk drive with corresponding slot in front panel, prototype mouse, prototype keyboard. Includes logic board 820-0086-00, copyrighted 1983, featuring Jean-Michel Folon "Mac Man" (Mr. Macintosh) on the edge, with 512 EPROM Adapter board also featuring "Mac Man," contained in pre-production plastic molded case, 330 x 245 x 250 mm, with smooth plastic front panel and with textured plastic case that bears Macintosh team signature molded to interior, but with only Apple logo on back panel and with Apple logo and Macintosh logo in reversed locations as seen only on prototypes, 3 of 4 Trend Plastics rubber feet with Apple logo. Includes prototype keyboard that bears handwritten serial number on label on lower panel and 3 of 4 Trend Plastics rubber feet with Apple logo; prototype M01000 mouse that bears serial number label, but with prototype connector. includes dual density "Twiggy" diskette labeled "Mac Word." THE MACHINE THAT "HAS CHANGED OUR LIVES FOREVER" (Wozniak). Extremely desirable Macintosh prototype with 5 1/4-inch "Twiggy" drive. Original Macintosh team member Dan Kottke on the Folklore.org website fixes the date of this iteration of the digital board to May 1983. The Macintosh began as a personal project of Jef Raskin, who envisioned a Swiss army knife of a computer: a low-cost, easy-to-use, high-volume appliance named for his favorite apple. Already by 1981, utilizing the 16/32-bit Motorola 68000 microprocessor used in the Lisa, they had the design for a machine 60% faster and much less expensive than the Lisa. It was this design that caught the attention of Steve Jobs who, after being removed from the Lisa project, was looking for something new to capture his attention. Once Jobs took interest in the project, it wasn't long before Raskin was forced out. Jobs "immediately saw that [Apple engineer] Burrell [Smith]'s machine could become the future of Apple" (Hertzfeld p 121). Jobs took over the project in January 1981 and more than changed the direction, he wanted to build a "friendly" computer: the personal computer as a tool for personal empowerment. He engendered a non-conformist attitude in his team and a shared vision of a product that was "insanely great." It was an approach that was utilized years later when Jobs returned to save Apple with the iMac, iPod, iPhone and iPad. "The best products, he [Jobs] believed, were 'whole widgets' that were designed end-to-end, with the software closely tailored to the hardware and vice versa. This is what would distinguish the Macintosh, which had an operating system that worked only on its own hardware, from the environment of Microsoft was creating in which its operating system could be used on hardware made by many different companies" (Isaacson p 137). The Macintosh would take the GUI (graphical user interface) that Steve Jobs and the Lisa developers had borrowed from Xerox PARC as well as the WYSIWIG (what you see is what you get) approach also pioneered at Xerox PARC and make it accessible to the masses. Jobs recognized the importance of third-party software developers. After all, it was the third-party spreadsheet program Visicalc, created first only for the Apple II, that drove many to adopt the personal computer=E2=80=94beginning with the Apple II. The team also realized that they had to show software developers how to work with this new playground. Unlike the Apple II where each piece of software could have its own key commands, they wanted to maintain a consistent user experience. The present computer was used by an in-house team member who had moved to Macintosh from the Lisa team. He was tasked with developing demonstrations to show off the computer's capabilities. Among the last-minute major changes to the Macintosh was the disk drive. The original plan was to use the new 5 =C2=BC-inch "Twiggy" drive that was built to greatly expand the capacity of standard floppy disks. It soon became apparent with the release of the Lisa, which featured 2 of these drives, that they were very unreliable and that it would be unfeasible to rely on a single "Twiggy" drive. The team scrambled, under the direction of Jobs, to develop their own 3.5-inch drive with Japanese company Alps based on the latest Sony drive, but realized, excepting Jobs, that they would never make it in time for the projected ship date. The team had to secretly work with Sony until Jobs was ready to acknowledge this=E2=80=94at one point having to hide a Sony employee in the closet to maintain the secret. The finished Macintosh used the new disk format which featured the same data rate as the Twiggy, was more robust than a 5 =C2=BC inch floppy and small enough to fit into a shirt pocket. Reportedly, Jobs had all of the existing Twiggy prototypes destroyed. The new Macintosh was launched during Superbowl XVIII with what is considered by many to be the greatest commercial of all time, "1984" by Ridley Scott. "The ad cast Macintosh as a warrior for the latter cause=E2=80=94a cool, rebellious, and heroic company that was the only thing standing in the way of the big evil corporation's plan for world domination and total mind control" (Isaacson p 162). Although originally sales were sluggish, the Macintosh's all-in-one, friendly design at a reasonable price eventually won out, and the "insanely great" philosophy of Steve Jobs that it embodied informs the devices that today have been inextricably woven into the fabric of daily life. Hertzfield. Revolution in the Valley. [Sebastopol, 2005]; Isaacson. Steve Jobs NY: [2011]; Levy. Insanely Great [NY: 1995]; Kottke, Daniel. "Macintosh Prototypes." Folklore.Org. Footnotes "There are occasionally short windows in time when incredibly important things get invented that shape the lives of humans for hundreds of years. These events are impossible to anticipate, and the inventors, the participants, are often working not for reasons of money, but for the personal satisfaction of making something great. The development of the Macintosh computer was one of these events, and it has changed our lives forever. Every computer today is basically a Macintosh, a very different type of computer from those that preceded it." Steve Wozniak from the forward of Revolution in the Valley. "I'm one of those people who think that Thomas Edison and the light bulb changed the world a lot more than Karl Marx ever did" (Steve Jobs quoted in Levy's Insanely Great). --===============7255000469812194143==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Oct 3 14:05:59 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 10:05:51 -0400 Message-ID: <74344628-9907-47F7-A5A2-55FFBC6C4953@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <48b053ea2a67e4463f1316d6c336df618085e19d.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7148930512567640579==" --===============7148930512567640579== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 2, 2024, at 5:23 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On Wed, 2024-10-02 at 16:39 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> For the earlier 1311, lack of overlap made perfect sense. After all, >> the 1620 has no interrupts, no parallelism of any kind: every I/O >> operation stalls the CPU until the operation is finished. (That and >> the BB instruction are among the reasons why Dijkstra rejected the >> 1620.) >=20 > 1401 had overlap, but as far as I can tell, only for cards and tape. > The 1403 had a buffer, and 1401 had instructions to test whether the > printer or carriage were busy, but that "overlap" didn't work the same > as for cards and tape. >=20 > I remember the 1620 being called CADET, but not because it was a > beginner computer. It didn't have arithmetic hardware. It was done by > table lookup. CADET meant "Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try." One of my > colleagues exploited the table-based arithmetic to do octal arithmetic > for satellite telemetry processing. That would be the Model 1, which had "add-multiply tables" in lowcore. Addin= g and multiplying was done by looking up entries in those tables. I assume t= he address was formed from the two input digits, producing a two-digit result= (or for add, maybe a one digit result plus a carry bit encoded in the sign b= it). Core memory of course is non-volatile so unless you had a program scrib= ble wildly, those tables would carry from one run to the next. When in doubt= , you could boot the add-multiply tables card deck to load the correct values. And yes, you could do octal arithmetic that way, in the sense of interpreting= a string of digits in memory as octal rather than decimal digits. Neat hack. Ours was a Model 2, which differs in a number of ways; one major difference i= s that it has add and multiply hardware. So while we did have an add-multipl= y card deck sitting around, it wasn't actually needed. A fun aspect of both machines is that they would do arithmetic on variable le= ngth operands, of any length if you were patient enough. So you could add a = pair of 5000 digit numbers. The same was true for floating point (I don't kn= ow if that was only in Model 2), the mantissa was variable length (the expone= nt always two digits). I remember the Fortran compiler had a compiler option= setting to choose the "field length" (number of digits) for the integer and = real data types, allowing you to pick any length up to 20 digits separately f= or each. Speaking of interrupts vs. blocking I/O, there's an interesting hybrid techni= que I've seen only in one place: the Electrologica X1 will interrupt on compl= etion of an I/O, but also allows you to start a new I/O on a device that's st= ill busy with the preceding one. If you do that, the second I/O command will= block the CPU until the first one is done, then it will issue the I/O start = and the instruction is then complete. In practice, I/O was interrupt driven,= but with the help of what is arguably the world's first BIOS, a set of ROM r= esident I/O library routines originally written by Dijkstra for his Ph.D. pro= ject. As far as I can tell, the X1 was the world's first production computer= with interrupts as a standard feature. paul --===============7148930512567640579==-- From d44617665@hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 15:13:26 2024 From: David Wise To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 15:13:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <74344628-9907-47F7-A5A2-55FFBC6C4953@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7820024339417672936==" --===============7820024339417672936== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The IBM 1710 was a 1620 enhanced for process control. It had interrupts. Dave Wise ________________________________ From: Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2024 7:05 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts > On Oct 2, 2024, at 5:23 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk = wrote: > > On Wed, 2024-10-02 at 16:39 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> For the earlier 1311, lack of overlap made perfect sense. After all, >> the 1620 has no interrupts, no parallelism of any kind: every I/O >> operation stalls the CPU until the operation is finished. (That and >> the BB instruction are among the reasons why Dijkstra rejected the >> 1620.) > > 1401 had overlap, but as far as I can tell, only for cards and tape. > The 1403 had a buffer, and 1401 had instructions to test whether the > printer or carriage were busy, but that "overlap" didn't work the same > as for cards and tape. > > I remember the 1620 being called CADET, but not because it was a > beginner computer. It didn't have arithmetic hardware. It was done by > table lookup. CADET meant "Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try." One of my > colleagues exploited the table-based arithmetic to do octal arithmetic > for satellite telemetry processing. That would be the Model 1, which had "add-multiply tables" in lowcore. Addin= g and multiplying was done by looking up entries in those tables. I assume t= he address was formed from the two input digits, producing a two-digit result= (or for add, maybe a one digit result plus a carry bit encoded in the sign b= it). Core memory of course is non-volatile so unless you had a program scrib= ble wildly, those tables would carry from one run to the next. When in doubt= , you could boot the add-multiply tables card deck to load the correct values. And yes, you could do octal arithmetic that way, in the sense of interpreting= a string of digits in memory as octal rather than decimal digits. Neat hack. Ours was a Model 2, which differs in a number of ways; one major difference i= s that it has add and multiply hardware. So while we did have an add-multipl= y card deck sitting around, it wasn't actually needed. A fun aspect of both machines is that they would do arithmetic on variable le= ngth operands, of any length if you were patient enough. So you could add a = pair of 5000 digit numbers. The same was true for floating point (I don't kn= ow if that was only in Model 2), the mantissa was variable length (the expone= nt always two digits). I remember the Fortran compiler had a compiler option= setting to choose the "field length" (number of digits) for the integer and = real data types, allowing you to pick any length up to 20 digits separately f= or each. Speaking of interrupts vs. blocking I/O, there's an interesting hybrid techni= que I've seen only in one place: the Electrologica X1 will interrupt on compl= etion of an I/O, but also allows you to start a new I/O on a device that's st= ill busy with the preceding one. If you do that, the second I/O command will= block the CPU until the first one is done, then it will issue the I/O start = and the instruction is then complete. In practice, I/O was interrupt driven,= but with the help of what is arguably the world's first BIOS, a set of ROM r= esident I/O library routines originally written by Dijkstra for his Ph.D. pro= ject. As far as I can tell, the X1 was the world's first production computer= with interrupts as a standard feature. paul --===============7820024339417672936==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 15:33:51 2024 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 15:33:44 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CjIwTSjDQEC3XeYTHn4bIxDxsTmlaz5WeoWsnC4HKiGn4S71S8w?= =?utf-8?q?rDbvClx0jTOMWn6DqBS61xcjp3HFH6fwYd11URCP2Q9hxpdycqgW0whzI=3D=40gl?= =?utf-8?q?itchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1619161371278371481==" --===============1619161371278371481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A small laser interferomenter and a screw driver could be used, once one dete= rmined the center of the track by magnetic material and a microscope. Some wh= at special equipment but not all that special, now days. Years ago, I went to a Seagate building to help a friend with a servo writer = problem. It only took a few minutes so I never charged them. Of interest here= was that they used a stepper motor to control the position of the head. The = problem was that they wanted to turn the power off to the stepper motor to re= move an stray magnetic fields. They did it too soon while the motor was still in motion, causing the motor t= o not stop at the desired location. Adding some delay solved that one. So, th= e point is that a stepper was enough for a hard drive servo track. Of other interest, they were using an AIM 6502, running figForth. The program= mer was obviously a previous BASIC programmer because he'd named vaiables wit= h names like A, B, ... , instead of meaningful names that would have made the= code more readable. Dwight ________________________________ From: Jonathan Chapman via cctalk Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2024 4:11 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Jonathan Chapman Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers > question: could somebody (did they at the time) write a program for the app= le ][ to create such a diskette? The apple drive can do half track stepping, = and IIRC the signal is written strictly by a timing loop in the program Not really. Merely half-stepping a drive wouldn't be accurate enough, plus yo= u need to be able to drive not-data waveforms into the heads. --snip-- --===============1619161371278371481==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Thu Oct 3 16:01:34 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts --1620 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 11:01:29 -0500 Message-ID: <1568465283.362881.1727971289422@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCYXPR84MB351590BE58EEDF0200E0363AAE712=40CYXPR84MB?= =?utf-8?q?3515=2ENAMPRD84=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5909026227842091299==" --===============5909026227842091299== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I worked on a model 1 with 40k memory (my very first computer experience) and= floating point, and later a model 2 stripped. I believe the model 2 still u= sed table lookup for multiply. floating point in model 1 (and I think model 2) was limited to a 98 digit man= tissa, still more precision than the hardware in any subsequent computer AFAI= K. since the exponent was 10**-99 to 10**99 a broader range than any compute= r till many years later I think. fixed point divide was limited to (?) 10000 digits because it ended at addres= s x0099, i set that up once it took a loonng time for that one instruction to= execute. might have been 1000 digits only. don't know if the disk i/o RPQ overlapped, I saw one through a glass window o= nce. I'll have to look up the 1710. There are emulators for the 1620, i hope ther= e are for the 1710 too. I had forgotten or never knew the relationship, than= k you. 
--Carey
> On 10/03/2024 10:13 AM CDT David Wise via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > The IBM 1710 was a 1620 enhanced for process control. It had interrupts. >=20 > Dave Wise > ________________________________ > From: Paul Koning via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2024 7:05 AM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Paul Koning > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts >=20 >=20 >=20 > > On Oct 2, 2024, at 5:23 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Wed, 2024-10-02 at 16:39 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> For the earlier 1311, lack of overlap made perfect sense. After all, > >> the 1620 has no interrupts, no parallelism of any kind: every I/O > >> operation stalls the CPU until the operation is finished. (That and > >> the BB instruction are among the reasons why Dijkstra rejected the > >> 1620.) > > > > 1401 had overlap, but as far as I can tell, only for cards and tape. > > The 1403 had a buffer, and 1401 had instructions to test whether the > > printer or carriage were busy, but that "overlap" didn't work the same > > as for cards and tape. > > > > I remember the 1620 being called CADET, but not because it was a > > beginner computer. It didn't have arithmetic hardware. It was done by > > table lookup. CADET meant "Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try." One of my > > colleagues exploited the table-based arithmetic to do octal arithmetic > > for satellite telemetry processing. >=20 > That would be the Model 1, which had "add-multiply tables" in lowcore. Add= ing and multiplying was done by looking up entries in those tables. I assume= the address was formed from the two input digits, producing a two-digit resu= lt (or for add, maybe a one digit result plus a carry bit encoded in the sign= bit). Core memory of course is non-volatile so unless you had a program scr= ibble wildly, those tables would carry from one run to the next. When in dou= bt, you could boot the add-multiply tables card deck to load the correct valu= es. >=20 > And yes, you could do octal arithmetic that way, in the sense of interpreti= ng a string of digits in memory as octal rather than decimal digits. Neat ha= ck. >=20 > Ours was a Model 2, which differs in a number of ways; one major difference= is that it has add and multiply hardware. So while we did have an add-multi= ply card deck sitting around, it wasn't actually needed. >=20 > A fun aspect of both machines is that they would do arithmetic on variable = length operands, of any length if you were patient enough. So you could add = a pair of 5000 digit numbers. The same was true for floating point (I don't = know if that was only in Model 2), the mantissa was variable length (the expo= nent always two digits). I remember the Fortran compiler had a compiler opti= on setting to choose the "field length" (number of digits) for the integer an= d real data types, allowing you to pick any length up to 20 digits separately= for each. >=20 > Speaking of interrupts vs. blocking I/O, there's an interesting hybrid tech= nique I've seen only in one place: the Electrologica X1 will interrupt on com= pletion of an I/O, but also allows you to start a new I/O on a device that's = still busy with the preceding one. If you do that, the second I/O command wi= ll block the CPU until the first one is done, then it will issue the I/O star= t and the instruction is then complete. In practice, I/O was interrupt drive= n, but with the help of what is arguably the world's first BIOS, a set of ROM= resident I/O library routines originally written by Dijkstra for his Ph.D. p= roject. As far as I can tell, the X1 was the world's first production comput= er with interrupts as a standard feature. >=20 > paul --===============5909026227842091299==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Oct 3 16:26:10 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 16:26:00 +0000 Message-ID: <1a0f6593-ee1b-4dec-955b-c39668122d21@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2500004816751590937==" --===============2500004816751590937== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/2/24 18:20, Mike Katz wrote: > It also has off track signals on it.  I don't think there is any way to > create them with anything but a specially modified drive connected to a > special controller. Just that--DAD's specifically. We did it with a selected Micropolis worm-screw positioner drive driven through a 100:1 reduction. Pattern generation was done with an microcontroller adapted for the purpose. The whole shebang was mounted on a 3/4" thick aluminum plate. It was good enough to produce DADs for field use. I wonder if the mech out of a Drivetech drive could be similarly adapted. --Chuck --===============2500004816751590937==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Oct 3 17:39:57 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts --1620 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 13:39:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1568465283.362881.1727971289422@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2191132452381473756==" --===============2191132452381473756== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 3, 2024, at 12:01 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I worked on a model 1 with 40k memory (my very first computer experience) a= nd floating point, and later a model 2 stripped. I believe the model 2 still= used table lookup for multiply. Sure enough, that's what the Model 2 manual I just found on Bitsavers says. = I always though that both add and multiply were in hardware. Interesting. A= nother major enhancement in model 2 is index registers. > floating point in model 1 (and I think model 2) was limited to a 98 digit m= antissa, still more precision than the hardware in any subsequent computer AF= AIK. since the exponent was 10**-99 to 10**99 a broader range than any compu= ter till many years later I think. 100 digits says the model 2 manual. Exponents larger than that do appear in machines of that era. The CDC 6000 s= eries goes up to 10**322 (11 bit signed binary exponent) and the Electrologic= a X8 to 10**644 (12 bit signed binary exponent). Both are early 1960s. I do= n't remember what the IBM 360's range is; the exponent field is fairly small = but it's a power of 16 rather than the usual power of 2 (or power of 10 as in= the 1620). > ... > don't know if the disk i/o RPQ overlapped, I saw one through a glass window= once. No, just like all the other I/O instructions they block the CPU. paul --===============2191132452381473756==-- From turing@shaw.ca Thu Oct 3 17:51:47 2024 From: Norman Jaffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts --1620 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 11:51:41 -0600 Message-ID: <1592275409.78659774.1727977901382.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6092367150427943574==" --===============6092367150427943574== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The IBM 360 single precision floating point has a range of 10**-79 to 10**75;= double precision and extended precision has the same number of bits for the = exponent.=20 From: "Paul Koning via cctalk" =20 To: "cctalk" =20 Cc: "David Wise" , "CAREY SCHUG" , "Paul Koning" =20 Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2024 10:39:47 AM=20 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts --1620=20 > On Oct 3, 2024, at 12:01 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote:=20 >=20 > I worked on a model 1 with 40k memory (my very first computer experience) a= nd floating point, and later a model 2 stripped. I believe the model 2 still = used table lookup for multiply.=20 Sure enough, that's what the Model 2 manual I just found on Bitsavers says. I= always though that both add and multiply were in hardware. Interesting. Anot= her major enhancement in model 2 is index registers.=20 > floating point in model 1 (and I think model 2) was limited to a 98 digit m= antissa, still more precision than the hardware in any subsequent computer AF= AIK. since the exponent was 10**-99 to 10**99 a broader range than any comput= er till many years later I think.=20 100 digits says the model 2 manual.=20 Exponents larger than that do appear in machines of that era. The CDC 6000 se= ries goes up to 10**322 (11 bit signed binary exponent) and the Electrologica= X8 to 10**644 (12 bit signed binary exponent). Both are early 1960s. I don't= remember what the IBM 360's range is; the exponent field is fairly small but= it's a power of 16 rather than the usual power of 2 (or power of 10 as in th= e 1620).=20 > ...=20 > don't know if the disk i/o RPQ overlapped, I saw one through a glass window= once.=20 No, just like all the other I/O instructions they block the CPU.=20 paul=20 --===============6092367150427943574==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 3 17:56:15 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 11:56:06 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4CB3ADD5-4B1C-4B49-80C7-AB81966BD710@emailtoilet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6802816982710618245==" --===============6802816982710618245== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-10-02 2:52 p.m., bluewater emailtoilet.com via cctalk wrote: > Some PC HD maker offered a drive with a clear top so you could see the head= s moving. I had a friend write a VB program to do random seeks. It was fun to= watch. Still have the drive and the program. Don=E2=80=99t know if the progr= am will run in Win 11. =F0=9F=98=8A >=20 Not like old computers, that could sing and drives could dance. :) I know the PDP-8 could do music thru a AM radio. Did they ever have it sing? --===============6802816982710618245==-- From julf@julf.com Thu Oct 3 19:14:01 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 21:13:44 +0200 Message-ID: <9447b4ef-571b-4bd0-9926-9aecfbefb7e3@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4391359687313500015==" --===============4391359687313500015== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/10/2024 19:56, ben via cctalk wrote: > Not like old computers, that could sing and drives could dance. :) > I know the PDP-8 could do music thru a AM radio. Did they ever have it sing? No, they used DecTalks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D1l0Ko1GUiSo&pp=3DygUecGV0ZXIgbGFuZ3N0b24gZW= VkaWUgYW5kIGVkZGll https://peterlangston.com/Papers/2332.pdf Julf --===============4391359687313500015==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Oct 3 19:26:04 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts --1620 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 19:25:55 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1592275409.78659774.1727977901382.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4540262945468946830==" --===============4540262945468946830== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/3/24 10:51, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > The IBM 360 single precision floating point has a range of 10**-79 to 10**7= 5; double precision and extended precision has the same number of bits for th= e exponent.=20 ...and most significanrly, normalized to only the hex digit (4 bits), not to the bit. Really awful if you thought you could migrate code from a 7094... --Chuck --===============4540262945468946830==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Oct 3 19:33:22 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts --1620 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 19:27:47 +0000 Message-ID: <2a922877-3e1e-441f-b025-e396bd607fb8@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4624031468887877760==" --===============4624031468887877760== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/3/24 10:39, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On Oct 3, 2024, at 12:01 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >> >> I worked on a model 1 with 40k memory (my very first computer experience) = and floating point, and later a model 2 stripped. I believe the model 2 stil= l used table lookup for multiply. > Sure enough, that's what the Model 2 manual I just found on Bitsavers says.= I always though that both add and multiply were in hardware. Interesting. = Another major enhancement in model 2 is index registers. *FANDK -Chuck --===============4624031468887877760==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Oct 3 19:58:09 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts --1620 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 14:57:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5060951273628515683==" --===============5060951273628515683== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/3/24 14:25, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/3/24 10:51, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >> The IBM 360 single precision floating point has a range of 10**-79 to 10**= 75; double precision and extended precision has the same number of bits for t= he exponent. > ...and most significanrly, normalized to only the hex digit (4 bits), > not to the bit. Really awful if you thought you could migrate code > from a 7094... Yes, this was a huge error on IBM's part.=C2=A0 There are some=20 standard numerical algorithms that work by examining small=20 differences between numbers and then iterating.=C2=A0 The varying=20 level of precision (up to 3 lost bits of significance) made=20 all these iterations very problematic on the 360/370.=C2=A0 IBM=20 finally admitted their mistake and put IEEE floating point=20 on their later mainframes as a software-selectable option.=C2=A0=20 I helped one physicist who was trying to run a big VAX=20 astrophysics simulation on the U of MO 370 that ran into=20 this.=C2=A0 It ran fin on our VAX, of course. Jon --===============5060951273628515683==-- From chrise@pobox.com Thu Oct 3 20:36:14 2024 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 15:28:55 -0500 Message-ID: <20241003202855.GD2342@n0jcf.net> In-Reply-To: <1a0f6593-ee1b-4dec-955b-c39668122d21@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1996049592574996842==" --===============1996049592574996842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just curious if you had a known "good" drive, a golden unit so to speak, that was well aligned with an authentic alignment diskette-- could you then use that drive to write plain old data diskettes that the downstream users would then align their drives to? Could they simply maximize the read signal coming off that data diskette? I'd assume that the data written would include track number in the data so a piece of software could help ensure you are actually on the correct track while you are tweaking the gizmos to maximize the read signal. I'd assume you could get access to the raw read signal (before or after some read amplifier) on the drive and put your scope there to help you maximize that signal level. Wouldn't this result in aligning that user's drive to the sweet spot of the track(s) on the diskette if the assumption is that the data diskette was written with tracks in the right place? cje -- Chris Elmquist --===============1996049592574996842==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Oct 3 21:41:45 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 14:41:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB694180D8E82E5A0A25713D14A3712=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4824845366380064177==" --===============4824845366380064177== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 3 Oct 2024, dwight via cctalk wrote: > A small laser interferomenter and a screw driver could be used, once one de= termined the center of the track by magnetic material and a microscope. Some = what special equipment but not all that special, now days. > Years ago, I went to a Seagate building to help a friend with a servo write= r problem. It only took a few minutes so I never charged them. Of interest he= re was that they used a stepper motor to control the position of the head. Th= e problem was that they wanted to turn the power off to the stepper motor to = remove an stray magnetic fields. > They did it too soon while the motor was still in motion, causing the motor= to not stop at the desired location. Adding some delay solved that one. So, = the point is that a stepper was enough for a hard drive servo track. > Of other interest, they were using an AIM 6502, running figForth. The progr= ammer was obviously a previous BASIC programmer because he'd named vaiables w= ith names like A, B, ... , instead of meaningful names that would have made t= he code more readable. > Dwight That delay is usually handle in software/firmware in the host machine. After a step pulse, wait some time before another step, or other drive=20 access, so that the head finishes moving, and "settles". On PC, for floppies, there is a parameter block pointed to by Int 1Eh. "Over-clockers" like to cut that track to track time down to the lowext=20 that they THINK is adequate. One (of several) reasons for the introduction of PC-DOS 2.10 was that the=20 PCJr used Qunetrak 142 drives that were too slow for PC-DOS 2.00, so they=20 had to increase the time. Sure enough, an over-clocker put out a patch to=20 shorten that extended time. (-: might that be a use for the relays in the "[cctalk] Might be antique computer parts" thread? :-) (emoticon captioned for the humour impaired; there are better ways to delay) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4824845366380064177==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Oct 3 23:30:49 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 18:30:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20241003202855.GD2342@n0jcf.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7441624008152180928==" --===============7441624008152180928== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/3/24 15:28, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > Just curious if you had a known "good" drive, a golden unit so to speak, > that was well aligned with an authentic alignment diskette-- could you > then use that drive to write plain old data diskettes that the downstream > users would then align their drives to? > Yes, and in a pinch I have done that.  What you want is to hack the format program so you can write just ONE track.  Bulk erase the floppy and then format just one track.  Put a scope on the analog read amp signal and see if it looks good.  Then, loosen the screws on the stepper motor and turn the motor to maximize the signal.  Other drives with square motors require some tweaking of the coupling between motor and linear rollator. Jon --===============7441624008152180928==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Oct 4 00:09:16 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2024 17:09:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1782261430032038054==" --===============1782261430032038054== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 3 Oct 2024, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Yes, and in a pinch I have done that.=C2=A0 What you want is to hack the fo= rmat=20 > program so you can write just ONE track.=C2=A0 Bulk erase the floppy and th= en=20 > format just one track.=C2=A0 Put a scope on the analog read amp signal and = see if=20 > it looks good.=C2=A0 Then, loosen the screws on the stepper motor and turn = the=20 > motor to maximize the signal.=C2=A0 Other drives with square motors require= some=20 > tweaking of the coupling between motor and linear rollator. Trivial enhancements: "Teaching grandma to suck eggs": use DOS, not Windows 11. Do a very thorough bulk erase. And then use a 96tpi drive to write to it,=20 even if the target drive to be aligned is 48tpi. That will give you a narrower track, centered on where the wide track=20 would have been. On a PC, rather than trying to make sense out of Microsoft's FORMAT=20 program to modify it, it is not hard to go to Int13h and give it a format=20 command. With NEC type of controller, you will need to set up a buffer=20 containing a list of the sector header contents that you want. (with WD controllers, you create a track image and do a "WRITE TRACK") If the target drive to be aligned is 48tpi, and you use a 96tpi drive to=20 make the test disk, use a "360K" or "720K 5.25" disk, NOT a "1.2M" drive,=20 and remember that if you are going to write sector headers, to double the=20 cylinder number. If you use a "1.2M" drive, be sure to set the motor speed to 300RPM, not=20 360 RPM and write at 250K bits per second, OR, with the motor speed at 360RPM, write at 300K bits per second. With analog alignment disks, you want at least a 20MHz scope; my NLS 215=20 portable scope was not adequate. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1782261430032038054==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 4 07:07:13 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2024 09:07:00 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8F4C3B54-77C6-4460-A623-B856493717A5@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2213568077447719039==" --===============2213568077447719039== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 2 Oct 2024, Tom Gardner wrote: > Speaking of high profit margins: on the 1620, there was an extra cost > option called "direct seek". I don't know if involved a jumper cut or > some actual circuitry (an adder, most likely). We didn't have that, and > the result is that a seek from cylinder x to cylinder y was done by a > full retract to cylinder 0, followed by a seek out to y. It was amusing > to watch the shaking resulting from a simple "incrementing seek test" -- > seek to cylinder i for i = 0 to 99. Those last few seeks would take the > better part of a second. Here's a link to a video that I took last year of a 1311 doing seeks (it is running on a 1401): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXDVRP9pfyw Christian --===============2213568077447719039==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 4 07:22:03 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2024 09:21:54 +0200 Message-ID: <7d98c2cc-f011-5792-f832-31274c4aade@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <20241003202855.GD2342@n0jcf.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3654849584599819411==" --===============3654849584599819411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 3 Oct 2024, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Just curious if you had a known "good" drive, a golden unit so to speak, > that was well aligned with an authentic alignment diskette-- could you > then use that drive to write plain old data diskettes that the downstream > users would then align their drives to? Yes, that is what you do in practice. Although I have a bunch of alignment disks for 5.25" 48tpi and 96tpi (and I guess for 8", too), you don't need them for pure track alignment. I mean, the drive was once good. I can't see how a solid drive can get out of alignment without physical impact. The CBM floppy drives seem to a case of cheap drive mechanics. But I guess that comes from the missing track 0 sensor, thus the head carrier physically hits the chassis, and this can cause dealignment. I also know the cats eye patterns etc. from disk drive alignment packs (e.g. RK05 alignment cartridge). But do I _need_ them for track alignment? Christian --===============3654849584599819411==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Fri Oct 4 11:02:45 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan Alignment and Performance Testers Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2024 11:02:33 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7d98c2cc-f011-5792-f832-31274c4aade@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5495407153995760843==" --===============5495407153995760843== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I mean, the drive was once good. I can't > see how a solid drive can get out of alignment without physical impact. It's a mechanical system, they're *all* old at this point. Some of them just = go out of alignment from wear, heavy use, whatever. I've personally had TM-10= 0s that came with systems I got in the mid 90s slowly become less and less re= liable with reading diskettes written on other systems, or even sometimes one= s written on that drive but 10+ years ago. Turned out to be marginal alignmen= t. I wouldn't be surprised if drives also become more sensitive to marginal alig= nments as everything in them ages -- something like lower head output levels,= sloppier stepper positioning, etc. In particular, I've had drives where the = azimuth alignment ends up out, and on drives with non-adjustable azimuth I do= wonder if they were just not super well aligned from the factory and finally= wore enough to be out. I have not done extensive failure analysis as I use t= hose drives which have uncorrectable alignment issues as parts to fix other d= rives (I now have a couple TM-100s where the only original parts are the fram= e and wiring!) Then there are of course alignment issues caused by break-fix repairs, like r= eplacing an index sensor, a head carriage guide rod (even if you're careful y= ou can knock it out of alignment), stepper replacement/new bearings, or anyth= ing where the carriage actually gets fully removed. > I also know the cats eye patterns etc. from disk drive alignment packs > (e.g. RK05 alignment cartridge). But do I need them for track alignment? Yes. If you want an alignment that allows reliable interchange, you need to a= lign with an AAD. I have had to realign several "good enough using ImageDisk'= s beep alignment" hobbyist jobs done with factory written diskettes. With the= AAD, it's immediately obvious that the alignment was marginal. You could do = a media interchange dance between all of your available drives, but you'd sti= ll be in the position of maybe being misaligned to everyone else in the world= :P If you don't care about interchange, the only really critical alignment is in= dex alignment on hard sectored drives. That needs to be within tolerances or = else you'll get missed sectors around the index. Some drives also have adjust= able index skew, which is a special consideration of index alignment (e.g. Pe= rtec FD-400 and FD-500 series, with leadscrews that are unsupported on the hu= b end) Thanks, Jonathan --===============5495407153995760843==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Oct 4 15:39:15 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2024 15:30:46 +0000 Message-ID: <77a6fd52-305a-4a6a-bc4b-80532b8d70b0@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5152433355170296245==" --===============5152433355170296245== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/4/24 00:07, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 2 Oct 2024, Tom Gardner wrote: >> Speaking of high profit margins: on the 1620, there was an extra cost >> option called "direct seek".  I don't know if involved a jumper cut or >> some actual circuitry (an adder, most likely).  We didn't have that, >> and the result is that a seek from cylinder x to cylinder y was done >> by a full retract to cylinder 0, followed by a seek out to y.  It was >> amusing to watch the shaking resulting from a simple "incrementing >> seek test" -- seek to cylinder i for i = 0 to 99.  Those last few >> seeks would take the better part of a second. > > Here's a link to a video that I took last year of a 1311 doing seeks (it > is running on a 1401): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXDVRP9pfyw We did not have the direct seek feature on the 1311 on our CADET back then. Figure that it takes additional logic to figure out "where am I now and where do I want to go?" So, a feature. --Chuck --===============5152433355170296245==-- From Bruce@Wild-Hare.com Fri Oct 4 18:00:40 2024 From: Bruce Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2024 11:57:10 -0600 Message-ID: <41d08f3b-cfcd-4765-b2bb-c2867d588ebc@Wild-Hare.com> In-Reply-To: <77a6fd52-305a-4a6a-bc4b-80532b8d70b0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5746469701459587458==" --===============5746469701459587458== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Data General MV/8000 emulator beta release is now available from my DG legacy preservation web site: www.NovasAreForever.org The MV/8000 emulator runs AOS/VS and AOS/VS II, plus associated languages and utilities, in a single-user environment on Windows and Linux systems. Files are available at the bottom of the web site's emulator download page: www.NovasAreForever.org/dgbeta/index.php The 'Beta_Update_00.01.00_Notes.txt' file contains brief notes describing the emulator configuration and files, and assumes substantial knowledge about running DG systems. Now "MVs Are Forever..." Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org --===============5746469701459587458==-- From alderson@panix.com Fri Oct 4 18:49:55 2024 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2024 11:30:17 -0700 Message-ID: <02881702-0CBD-408F-AF44-6C6FF460193D@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <41d08f3b-cfcd-4765-b2bb-c2867d588ebc@Wild-Hare.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6726108757937582351==" --===============6726108757937582351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Woohoo! Rich Alderson Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 4, 2024, at 11:00, Bruce Ray via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFA Data General MV/8000 emulator beta release is now available from= my DG > legacy preservation web site: >=20 > www.NovasAreForever.org >=20 >=20 > The MV/8000 emulator runs AOS/VS and AOS/VS II, plus associated > languages and utilities, in a single-user environment on Windows and > Linux systems. >=20 >=20 > Files are available at the bottom of the web site's emulator download page: > www.NovasAreForever.org/dgbeta/index.php >=20 >=20 > The 'Beta_Update_00.01.00_Notes.txt' file contains brief notes > describing the emulator configuration and files, and assumes substantial > knowledge about running DG systems. >=20 >=20 > Now "MVs Are Forever..." >=20 >=20 > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Denver, Colorado USA > bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com >=20 > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org >=20 --===============6726108757937582351==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Fri Oct 4 19:09:54 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTE is dead Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2024 14:09:47 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <12001982-b98b-9f93-ee31-854c77f99c3a@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6796870449898564666==" --===============6796870449898564666== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/1/24 12:31, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/1/24 11:45, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> >> I should note that my local store's primary business at this point is >> installing AV systems into peoples homes and repairing old stereo >> equipment, which means they are likely the largest consumer of their >> own stock, but when I need a resistor, transistor, connector, etc, >> this is my goto place. I have been buying from them for about 56 years. > > And, you are very lucky!  We used to have two electronic stores, and > now both have closed up.  If you need a connector, length of cable, or > something of that sort, there is no place local to get it! > Microcenter in STL > Jon > --===============6796870449898564666==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Oct 4 20:05:06 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2024 16:04:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41d08f3b-cfcd-4765-b2bb-c2867d588ebc@Wild-Hare.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0666429055882841551==" --===============0666429055882841551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice! So is this the current open-simh simulator, or a newer version? Will you upd= ate the one in open-simh? paul > On Oct 4, 2024, at 1:57 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > A Data General MV/8000 emulator beta release is now available from my DG > legacy preservation web site: >=20 > www.NovasAreForever.org >=20 >=20 > The MV/8000 emulator runs AOS/VS and AOS/VS II, plus associated > languages and utilities, in a single-user environment on Windows and > Linux systems. >=20 >=20 > Files are available at the bottom of the web site's emulator download page: > www.NovasAreForever.org/dgbeta/index.php >=20 >=20 > The 'Beta_Update_00.01.00_Notes.txt' file contains brief notes > describing the emulator configuration and files, and assumes substantial > knowledge about running DG systems. >=20 >=20 > Now "MVs Are Forever..." >=20 >=20 > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Denver, Colorado USA > bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com >=20 > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org --===============0666429055882841551==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sat Oct 5 03:01:18 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2024 19:53:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41d08f3b-cfcd-4765-b2bb-c2867d588ebc@Wild-Hare.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4286926021163745866==" --===============4286926021163745866== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > A Data General MV/8000 emulator beta release is now available from my DG > legacy preservation web site: >=20 > www.NovasAreForever.org Very good. Will there be source code, for those of us not on x86 or ARM? --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- There is no rest for the wicked, yet the virtuous have no pillows. -------= -- --===============4286926021163745866==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sat Oct 5 04:42:53 2024 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2024 12:42:25 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41d08f3b-cfcd-4765-b2bb-c2867d588ebc@Wild-Hare.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6476135437414433414==" --===============6476135437414433414== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > ... > Now "MVs Are Forever..." > ... > As the software is binary only it won't be "Forever", but only until the next major change in Windows or Linux APIs which breaks binary compatibility. --===============6476135437414433414==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Sat Oct 5 14:11:35 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2024 09:11:29 -0500 Message-ID: <2058410109.410726.1728137489342@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2614238210623594423==" --===============2614238210623594423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable not really, just run the emulator in a VM or even an x86 emulator with the ol= d winblows/linux. 
--Carey
> On 10/04/2024 11:42 PM CDT Tom Hunter via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > > > > ... > > Now "MVs Are Forever..." > > ... > > >=20 > As the software is binary only it won't be "Forever", but only until the > next major change in Windows or Linux APIs which breaks binary > compatibility. --===============2614238210623594423==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Sat Oct 5 14:51:20 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2024 15:51:13 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4569977654070472569==" --===============4569977654070472569== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 5 Oct 2024, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > As the software is binary only it won't be "Forever", but only until the > next major change in Windows or Linux APIs which breaks binary > compatibility. Linux maintains backwards ABI compatibility as far as both the OS kernel and the C library is concerned. If something breaks with an upgrade then please report a bug rather than complaining on a random mailing list (not that I endorse proprietary or any kind of closed-source software). Maciej --===============4569977654070472569==-- From Bruce@Wild-Hare.com Sat Oct 5 15:33:43 2024 From: Bruce Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2024 09:35:33 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1199190513224650908==" --===============1199190513224650908== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/4/2024 2:04 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Nice! > > So is this the current open-simh simulator, or a newer version? Will you u= pdate the one in open-simh? > > paul > None of the SimH versions currently has an MV emulator, so there is technically nothing to "update". This is a new emulator that uses parts of our commercial product stuffed into the SimH structure. It is a challenge to adapt sections of our commercial software into the SimH framework due to their significant differences in design, implementation and certification. Accordingly, it will take time before source code will be part of a SimH release. Bruce Ray bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com --===============1199190513224650908==-- From Bruce@Wild-Hare.com Sat Oct 5 15:35:48 2024 From: Bruce Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2024 09:37:38 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0146190867467703972==" --===============0146190867467703972== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/4/2024 8:53 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > >> A Data General MV/8000 emulator beta release is now available from my DG >> legacy preservation web site: >> >> www.NovasAreForever.org > > Very good. Will there be source code, for those of us not on x86 or ARM? > This is a new emulator that uses parts of our commercial product stuffed into the SimH structure. It is a challenge to adapt sections of our commercial software into the SimH framework due to their significant differences in design, implementation and certification. Accordingly, it will take time before source code will be part of a SimH release. What platform(s) were you targeting...? Bruce Ray bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com --===============0146190867467703972==-- From lists@skogtun.org Sat Oct 5 16:38:47 2024 From: Harald Arnesen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2024 18:29:45 +0200 Message-ID: <7798f551-62bf-44e7-b791-0d731fe49884@skogtun.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8053217796241037873==" --===============8053217796241037873== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk [2024-10-05 16:51:13]: > On Sat, 5 Oct 2024, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > >> As the software is binary only it won't be "Forever", but only until the >> next major change in Windows or Linux APIs which breaks binary >> compatibility. > > Linux maintains backwards ABI compatibility as far as both the OS kernel > and the C library is concerned. If something breaks with an upgrade then > please report a bug rather than complaining on a random mailing list (not > that I endorse proprietary or any kind of closed-source software). Have you tried to run any libc5-program lately? Or a.out binaries? -- Hilsen Harald --===============8053217796241037873==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Sat Oct 5 16:52:05 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2024 17:51:58 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7798f551-62bf-44e7-b791-0d731fe49884@skogtun.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3008905082242065589==" --===============3008905082242065589== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 5 Oct 2024, Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote: > > Linux maintains backwards ABI compatibility as far as both the OS kernel > > and the C library is concerned. If something breaks with an upgrade then > > please report a bug rather than complaining on a random mailing list (not > > that I endorse proprietary or any kind of closed-source software). > > Have you tried to run any libc5-program lately? Or a.out binaries? If there's an issue with libc5, then please report a bug; anything ELF is supposed to continue running. Support for a.out was removed indeed, I forgot about that. It boils down to maintenance really: no one was interested in becoming a maintainer and I reckon calls to fix bugs were unanswered for years. Someone *has* to do the work, things do not happen automagically. Maciej --===============3008905082242065589==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sat Oct 5 17:28:45 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2024 10:28:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8239578177462115122==" --===============8239578177462115122== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> A Data General MV/8000 emulator beta release is now available from my DG >>> legacy preservation web site: >>> >>> www.NovasAreForever.org >> >> Very good. Will there be source code, for those of us not on x86 or ARM? >> >=20 > This is a new emulator that uses parts of our commercial product stuffed > into the SimH structure.=C2=A0 It is a challenge to adapt sections of our > commercial software into the SimH framework due to their significant > differences in design, implementation and certification.=C2=A0 Accordingly, > it will take time before source code will be part of a SimH release. >=20 > What platform(s) were you targeting...? The one I'm typing on, OpenPower ppc64le (a POWER9 Raptor Talos II). --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- They told me I was gullible ... and I believed them. ---------------------= -- --===============8239578177462115122==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Oct 5 18:41:32 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2024 14:41:15 -0400 Message-ID: <00A6A03D-3BD1-465C-8F47-979E516AD893@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9219640508945620232==" --===============9219640508945620232== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 5, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Bruce Ray via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 10/4/2024 2:04 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Nice! >>=20 >> So is this the current open-simh simulator, or a newer version? Will you = update the one in open-simh? >>=20 >> paul >>=20 >=20 > None of the SimH versions currently has an MV emulator, so there is > technically nothing to "update". >=20 > This is a new emulator that uses parts of our commercial product stuffed > into the SimH structure. It is a challenge to adapt sections of our > commercial software into the SimH framework due to their significant > differences in design, implementation and certification. Accordingly, > it will take time before source code will be part of a SimH release. >=20 > Bruce Ray > bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com I don't know DG computers at all, but I see a Nova emulator in Open SIMH so I= was thinking of your work as an extension of that. This is why I asked abou= t updating. Your answer suggests that you intend to deliver this as an Open SIMH contribu= tion at some point. That's great news. Not soon because of the complexity o= f the job, ok, that's perfectly fine. My question was more about the overall= intent rather than specifics of the timeline. paul --===============9219640508945620232==-- From evanlinwood@hotmail.com Sun Oct 6 11:07:33 2024 From: Evan Linwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2024 11:07:27 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172814760829.2847341.15236785795705234884@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2775406045181326522==" --===============2775406045181326522== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A Data General MV/8000 emulator beta release is now available from my DG > legacy preservation web site: This is really something - thanks so much Bruce! --===============2775406045181326522==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 6 16:05:57 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2024 10:05:49 -0600 Message-ID: <07e0b8a2-b8a4-4459-8672-4f4e7b87d829@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDS7PR11MB61520CFABC26C010F3EF3C8EAB7C2=40DS7PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6152=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2661599219381663950==" --===============2661599219381663950== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-10-06 5:07 a.m., Evan Linwood via cctalk wrote: > > >> A Data General MV/8000 emulator beta release is now available from my DG >> legacy preservation web site: > > > This is really something - thanks so much Bruce! Is there a recommended single board computer for the emulators, or hardware card? Ben. --===============2661599219381663950==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Oct 7 09:11:13 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2024 10:10:56 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7798f551-62bf-44e7-b791-0d731fe49884@skogtun.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8458749048696807329==" --===============8458749048696807329== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 17:38, Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote: > Have you tried to run any libc5-program lately? Or a.out binaries? Does WordPerfect 8 (released in 1998) count? If so, yes, I have: https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/20/wordperfect_for_unix_for_linux/ Instructions to install it yourself: https://www.xwp8users.com/wp81script.htm -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8458749048696807329==-- From lists@skogtun.org Mon Oct 7 09:41:27 2024 From: Harald Arnesen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2024 11:41:19 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3150515007145021320==" --===============3150515007145021320== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Liam Proven via cctalk [2024-10-07 11:10:56]: >> Have you tried to run any libc5-program lately? Or a.out binaries? > Does WordPerfect 8 (released in 1998) count? > > If so, yes, I have: > > https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/20/wordperfect_for_unix_for_linux/ > > Instructions to install it yourself: > > https://www.xwp8users.com/wp81script.htm Sure, I have tested it myself. I can't see a regular user having a need to run a random libc5-program will manage to do this (hunt down the libraries needed and the like). -- Hilsen Harald --===============3150515007145021320==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Mon Oct 7 10:04:35 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2024 11:04:29 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8661989806266652731==" --===============8661989806266652731== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 7 Oct 2024, Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote: > > > Have you tried to run any libc5-program lately? Or a.out binaries? > > Does WordPerfect 8 (released in 1998) count? > >=20 > > If so, yes, I have: > >=20 > > https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/20/wordperfect_for_unix_for_linux/ > >=20 > > Instructions to install it yourself: > >=20 > > https://www.xwp8users.com/wp81script.htm >=20 > Sure, I have tested it myself. I can't see a regular user having a need to = run > a random libc5-program will manage to do this (hunt down the libraries need= ed > and the like). Running 25 years old a piece of software in a new deployment has never=20 been a regular use case. Support is there in the OS, but I agree that=20 making the individual thing run can be a challenge, and if one feels=20 incapable of taking it, they can always ask/hire someone to do it for=20 them. Software freedom does not imply freedom from challenges or free=20 support. FWIW compiling 25 years old a piece of software is even tougher, unless=20 you use contemporary tools in a contemporary environment, so while the=20 availability of the source code is surely always worth appreciating, the=20 challenge to make them run is not any smaller. NB if you clean up old a.out support and submit it for re-inclusion in=20 Linux along with a serious offer to maintain it long-term, then it may=20 well end up being accepted. You have the option to maintain it off-tree=20 too. Maciej --===============8661989806266652731==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Mon Oct 7 10:23:13 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2024 06:22:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3050963067775717975==" --===============3050963067775717975== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 7 Oct 2024 at 06:10, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > FWIW compiling 25 years old a piece of software is even tougher, unless > you use contemporary tools in a contemporary environment, so while the > availability of the source code is surely always worth appreciating, the > challenge to make them run is not any smaller. > That's sort of an odd claim. I bet that you could download an arbitrary piece of software from 25 years ago, run the configure script, and have something working with very few tweaks. The biggest hurdle is probably just going to be disabling all of the guardrails that modern clang/GCC give you (implicit function declarations, implicit int, etc.). The only real hurdle would come when trying to either compile something written for varargs.h or something written in true K&R. At that point we're talking about software written more like 35-40+ years ago. -Henry --===============3050963067775717975==-- From lists@skogtun.org Mon Oct 7 10:47:42 2024 From: Harald Arnesen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2024 12:47:36 +0200 Message-ID: <1cd959c7-7b68-4ce7-85f3-8281edec1d48@skogtun.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2066985146885098958==" --===============2066985146885098958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maciej W. Rozycki [2024-10-07 12:04:29]: > FWIW compiling 25 years old a piece of software is even tougher, unless > you use contemporary tools in a contemporary environment, so while the > availability of the source code is surely always worth appreciating, the > challenge to make them run is not any smaller. That depends. I have compiled several SysV- and BSD4.3-utilities for FreeDOS, using gcc or openwatcom. Most compiled straight away. Most of the C programs I made for my Amiga compiles fine today (obviously not Intuition-based graphics programs). I like to collect old text adventure games, most of what I find are easy to compile on Linux. > NB if you clean up old a.out support and submit it for re-inclusion in > Linux along with a serious offer to maintain it long-term, then it may > well end up being accepted. You have the option to maintain it off-tree > too. Not me. I have really no need to run a.out binaries, nor am i qualified to do such a thing. -- Hilsen Harald --===============2066985146885098958==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Mon Oct 7 11:05:50 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2024 12:05:42 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0325535746258201746==" --===============0325535746258201746== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 7 Oct 2024, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > > FWIW compiling 25 years old a piece of software is even tougher, unless > > you use contemporary tools in a contemporary environment, so while the > > availability of the source code is surely always worth appreciating, the > > challenge to make them run is not any smaller. > > > > That's sort of an odd claim. I bet that you could download an arbitrary > piece of software from 25 years ago, run the configure script, and have > something working with very few tweaks. The biggest hurdle is probably > just going to be disabling all of the guardrails that modern clang/GCC give > you (implicit function declarations, implicit int, etc.). The only real > hurdle would come when trying to either compile something written for > varargs.h or something written in true K&R. At that point we're talking > about software written more like 35-40+ years ago. You bet and I have proofs otherwise, as it's the kind of stuff I've been doing all the time, both professionally and with personal projects. First of all don't expect there'll be a configure script (end even if there is, chances are it'll break with a modern compiler). Then expect all the assumptions the authors made that no longer stand. Even missing #include directives, which used to work owing to indirect inclusions, which have since been cleaned up, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. For example I was recently faced with building SPEC CPU 2006 for POWER9 and RISC-V platforms. No it wasn't trivial, it didn't amount to running configure and making a couple of tweaks at all, and the software was like only 15 years old rather than 25 when I got at it. Likewise try building an old version of GCC, say 4.1 (let's not even mention 2.7, etc.), for whatever platform nowadays. I'm not talking trivial software, I could build a small demonstration shell I wrote back in 1990s with no issue recently when I needed it to debug a serious OS issue and a standard shell just crashed or hung. Maciej --===============0325535746258201746==-- From spc@conman.org Mon Oct 7 20:58:55 2024 From: Sean Conner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General MV/8000 emulator announcement Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2024 16:37:04 -0400 Message-ID: <20241007203704.GA25569@brevard.conman.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3690886599247549090==" --===============3690886599247549090== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was thus said that the Great Henry Bent via cctalk once stated: > On Mon, 7 Oct 2024 at 06:10, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > FWIW compiling 25 years old a piece of software is even tougher, unless > > you use contemporary tools in a contemporary environment, so while the > > availability of the source code is surely always worth appreciating, the > > challenge to make them run is not any smaller. > > > > That's sort of an odd claim. I bet that you could download an arbitrary > piece of software from 25 years ago, run the configure script, and have > something working with very few tweaks. The biggest hurdle is probably > just going to be disabling all of the guardrails that modern clang/GCC > give you (implicit function declarations, implicit int, etc.). The only > real hurdle would come when trying to either compile something written for > varargs.h or something written in true K&R. At that point we're talking > about software written more like 35-40+ years ago. Maybe. I downloaded Viola, an early-90s graphical web browser (around 30 years old), and while it did compile on two different Linux systems (My God! It's full of warnings!), it ran (for various values of "run") on the 32-bit system, and immediately crashed on the 64-bit system (because sizeof(int) == sizeof(long) == sizeof(char *)). It was written just *after* C89 came out, and it shows. -spc --===============3690886599247549090==-- From stepleton@gmail.com Tue Oct 8 20:46:03 2024 From: Tom Stepleton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 21:45:46 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6932007155467165645==" --===============6932007155467165645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, I have a floppy disk data archiving project to undertake, and although I'm aware that this can sometimes lead to spirited discussion (and hope to avoid that!), I'm interested in current good practices for pulling data off of hard-to-replace disks. In this situation, the disks are 8" floppies likely in ordinary IBM 26-sector, 77-track, 128-bytes/sector, double-sided FM format. I have a flux reader and will have a pair of Shugart 851 drives for the job; these likely haven't been used for a while, though. At this stage I'll consider the job done if I manage to get good low-level recordings from the disks: assuming the FM data decodes well and sector CRCs look good, further analysis can come later. The main risk I'm worried about is physical damage to the media. While reportedly the disks don't show visible defects (nb: they belong to someone else so I can't inspect them myself right now), I'm still anxious about any chance I might find the binder that secures the magnetic material to the cookie degraded to the point of allowing the oxide to come free. Most other situations I think I can deal with, but I'd like to have a more concrete plan if I start to find oxide building up on the heads. I'd be interested to know what precautions people might take for common data recovery problems. One option is cyclomethicone for cleaning and lubrication if necessary, but other than "you could use this", I'd be interested to know details of how people put it to use if they are worried about media failure. Meanwhile, I'm disinclined to use isopropanol or other more aggressive solvents given received wisdom, although I know opinions differ here. The disks are boot media and other materials relating to the RSRE Flex operating system as developed for PERQ workstations. I'm not aware of other copies of this OS being available, though it would relieve some of the pressure to learn that these weren't the only ones. The disks themselves are primarily ICL-branded although a few indicate manufacture or resale by Maxell, DEC, Inmac, among other brands. Is there anything else that people would advise me to look out for? I did find this thread , but practices may have advanced in the past six years. I know the whiteboard cleaner that folks seem to have liked is difficult to find these days, particularly here in Britain. I've also had a hard time finding Photo Flo or similar photographic wetting agents and have used deionised water with a drop of dish soap instead. Thanks for any advice, --T --===============6932007155467165645==-- From travispierce70@gmail.com Tue Oct 8 21:09:57 2024 From: Travis Pierce To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 15:09:37 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2953208877646176990==" --===============2953208877646176990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds like a fun project and thank you for taking that on. The only guide I know of is this one , which is a good starting point. Other than the obvious cleaning tips. I think one suggestion often missed is to use your ears. You can really hear when a disk read is going bad. Travis > --===============2953208877646176990==-- From roger@arrick.com Tue Oct 8 22:10:13 2024 From: roger arrick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 22:10:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7675379367947784978==" --===============7675379367947784978== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Tom. We need a lot more of this type of preservation. I've been doing my part and built an imagedisk machine with an Adaptec 1522CF= controller which allows me to read single density. I've started specializing in systems with 8" drives. Imagedisk along with 22DISK to read and copy CP/M files, and anadisk to dive = into weird formats. All running DOS 5 via SD card on a machine that use to run Windows 95. In my experience, old floppies read amazingly well after 45 years. I've recovered almost all of mine and many others. I run my SA850 open so I can see the head surface. They are easy to clean and not near as delicate as we've always heard. I worked on these in the 70s, then 5.25" drives at Percom in the early 80s. Also in my experience, drives that have not been goofed with retain good alig= nment so don't rush off to twist those stepper motors. Reading SSSD 8" 28x128 77 track disks is fairly easy. It's the crazy m2mfm formats from intel and DEC RX02 that are troublesome - I= have systems for those. RogerArrick.com/computers -- Roger Arrick -- Tyler, Texas, USA -- Roger(a)Arrick.com -- ________________________________ From: Tom Stepleton via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2024 3:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Tom Stepleton Subject: [cctalk] Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Hi folks, I have a floppy disk data archiving project to undertake, and although I'm aware that this can sometimes lead to spirited discussion (and hope to avoid that!), I'm interested in current good practices for pulling data off of hard-to-replace disks. In this situation, the disks are 8" floppies likely in ordinary IBM 26-sector, 77-track, 128-bytes/sector, double-sided FM format. I have a flux reader and will have a pair of Shugart 851 drives for the job; these likely haven't been used for a while, though. At this stage I'll consider the job done if I manage to get good low-level recordings from the disks: assuming the FM data decodes well and sector CRCs look good, further analysis can come later. The main risk I'm worried about is physical damage to the media. While reportedly the disks don't show visible defects (nb: they belong to someone else so I can't inspect them myself right now), I'm still anxious about any chance I might find the binder that secures the magnetic material to the cookie degraded to the point of allowing the oxide to come free. Most other situations I think I can deal with, but I'd like to have a more concrete plan if I start to find oxide building up on the heads. I'd be interested to know what precautions people might take for common data recovery problems. One option is cyclomethicone for cleaning and lubrication if necessary, but other than "you could use this", I'd be interested to know details of how people put it to use if they are worried about media failure. Meanwhile, I'm disinclined to use isopropanol or other more aggressive solvents given received wisdom, although I know opinions differ here. The disks are boot media and other materials relating to the RSRE Flex operating system as developed for PERQ workstations. I'm not aware of other copies of this OS being available, though it would relieve some of the pressure to learn that these weren't the only ones. The disks themselves are primarily ICL-branded although a few indicate manufacture or resale by Maxell, DEC, Inmac, among other brands. Is there anything else that people would advise me to look out for? I did find this thread , but practices may have advanced in the past six years. I know the whiteboard cleaner that folks seem to have liked is difficult to find these days, particularly here in Britain. I've also had a hard time finding Photo Flo or similar photographic wetting agents and have used deionised water with a drop of dish soap instead. Thanks for any advice, --T --===============7675379367947784978==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 8 22:25:00 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 15:24:55 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR14MB34498B8ABA7100BF4B32343ED87E2=40DM6PR14MB?= =?utf-8?q?3449=2Enamprd14=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0097629820169050182==" --===============0097629820169050182== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 8 Oct 2024, roger arrick via cctalk wrote: > We need a lot more of this type of preservation. > I've been doing my part and built an imagedisk machine with an Adaptec 1522= CF controller which allows me to read single density. > I've started specializing in systems with 8" drives. > Imagedisk along with 22DISK to read and copy CP/M files, and anadisk to div= e into weird formats. > All running DOS 5 via SD card on a machine that use to run Windows 95. . . . > I run my SA850 open so I can see the head surface. > They are easy to clean and not near as delicate as we've always heard.=20 . . .=20 > Reading SSSD 8" 28x128 77 track disks is fairly easy. A trivial nit: he said DOUBLE sided; which is unimprtant other than they are not "CP/M=20 Standard" format. I ageee that Imagedisk is a good way to handle it. IFF there were format weirdities, such as copy protection, then a flux=20 transition board is good. I'm not sure how much good "baking" does. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0097629820169050182==-- From roger@arrick.com Tue Oct 8 22:27:57 2024 From: roger arrick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 22:27:48 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1851381052304264244==" --===============1851381052304264244== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I figured he was mistaken, the old 'standard' is SSSD. -- Roger Arrick -- Tyler, Texas, USA -- Roger(a)Arrick.com -- ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2024 5:24 PM To: roger arrick via cctalk Cc: Fred Cisin Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice On Tue, 8 Oct 2024, roger arrick via cctalk wrote: > We need a lot more of this type of preservation. > I've been doing my part and built an imagedisk machine with an Adaptec 1522= CF controller which allows me to read single density. > I've started specializing in systems with 8" drives. > Imagedisk along with 22DISK to read and copy CP/M files, and anadisk to div= e into weird formats. > All running DOS 5 via SD card on a machine that use to run Windows 95. . . . > I run my SA850 open so I can see the head surface. > They are easy to clean and not near as delicate as we've always heard. . . . > Reading SSSD 8" 28x128 77 track disks is fairly easy. A trivial nit: he said DOUBLE sided; which is unimprtant other than they are not "CP/M Standard" format. I ageee that Imagedisk is a good way to handle it. IFF there were format weirdities, such as copy protection, then a flux transition board is good. I'm not sure how much good "baking" does. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1851381052304264244==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 8 23:00:27 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 16:00:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR14MB34499D58AE1B5DC529CD971FD87E2=40DM6PR14MB?= =?utf-8?q?3449=2Enamprd14=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5215892236781498185==" --===============5215892236781498185== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 8 Oct 2024, roger arrick via cctalk wrote: > I figured he was mistaken, the old 'standard' is SSSD. Well, that's the CP/M "standard"., and, admittedly, on my first look at the message, I, too, did a double take on "double density" I once had a brief discussion with Gary Kildall, in which I pleaded with him to create a "secondary" standard for 5.25". He replied, "THE CP/M standard is Single Sided Single Density." He felt that people, disunirregardless of which hardware they were using SHOULD be able to transfer back and forth with 8" SSSD So, we ended up with thousands of 5.25" formats. The original poster was NOT CP/M, so 8" SSSD was not applicable. He said: > The disks are boot media and other materials relating to the RSRE Flex > operating system as > developed for PERQ workstations. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5215892236781498185==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 8 23:41:34 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 17:41:25 -0600 Message-ID: <8d316eb3-74e6-439f-9740-2cb5621f43ce@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6148682011756734175==" --===============6148682011756734175== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-10-08 5:00 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 8 Oct 2024, roger arrick via cctalk wrote: >> I figured he was mistaken, the old 'standard' is SSSD. > > Well, that's the CP/M "standard"., > and, admittedly,  on my first look at the message, I, too, did a double > take on "double density" > > I once had a brief discussion with Gary Kildall, in which I pleaded with > him to create a "secondary" standard for 5.25". > He replied, "THE CP/M standard is Single Sided Single Density." > He felt that people, disunirregardless of which hardware they were using > SHOULD be able to transfer back and forth with 8" SSSD > So, we ended up with thousands of 5.25" formats. That is because the 5.25 was 'no standard' format, because the selling of a cheap media device. 35 tracks, single density to who knows what, as every other year a new standard and media. I think the real reason Kildall stuck with that standard,was sectors were 128 bytes, and things had to shoehorn into what memory you had. CPM I think was only 2K of ram for the OS,and 256 bytes of system RAM. > > The original poster was NOT CP/M, so 8" SSSD was not applicable.  He said: >> The disks are boot media and other materials relating to the RSRE Flex >> operating system as >> developed for PERQ workstations. > Why are we archiving now, 25 years ago was the deadline? > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com Ben. --===============6148682011756734175==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 8 23:59:05 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 16:58:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8d316eb3-74e6-439f-9740-2cb5621f43ce@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6474292702850654568==" --===============6474292702850654568== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I once had a brief discussion with Gary Kildall, in which I pleaded with >> him to create a "secondary" standard for 5.25". >> He replied, "THE CP/M standard is Single Sided Single Density." >> He felt that people, disunirregardless of which hardware they were using >> SHOULD be able to transfer back and forth with 8" SSSD >> So, we ended up with thousands of 5.25" formats. On Tue, 8 Oct 2024, ben via cctalk wrote: > That is because the 5.25 was 'no standard' format, because the selling of a > cheap media device. 35 tracks, single density to who knows what, as > every other year a new standard and media. > I think the real reason Kildall stuck with that standard,was sectors were > 128 bytes, and things had to shoehorn into what memory you had. > CPM I think was only 2K of ram for the OS,and 256 bytes of system RAM. Also, he believed in a single standard, and the user had an obligation to be able to get to and from the standard. If he added "secondary" standards, as I was suggesting for 5.25", there would be a never ending proliferation. Need a standard for double sided. Need a standard for double density. Need a standard for 40 tracks. Need a standard for 80 tracks. Need a standard for 3" Need a standard for 3.25". Need a standard for 3.5" . . . By refusing to create a "secondary" standard, he avoided dilution of the standard, and he stood up for his belief that everybody should at least be able to comply with THE standard. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6474292702850654568==-- From doug@doughq.com Wed Oct 9 00:22:43 2024 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 11:16:50 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1438526686764024156==" --===============1438526686764024156== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And yet, here we are. When I built my first system in 1985 as a trainee technical officer, the *first* thing I did was copy all of the 8" floppies I could from a donor system onto my 5.25" DSHD drives (1.2MB - The biggest system in the neighbourhood at the time), so I could return the borrowed 8" drive to its owner. I never had 8" drives at home. I fully accept Kildall's rationale for having one standard - but we have proven in the 50 years since then that a worldview that is static doesn't work long term. One thing worth considering is that CP/M never had subdirectories - only User areas which are a pain to search for things within. (User1 - DIR, User2 - DIR, user 3 - Dir... etc etc..) so limiting floppy size to Single Density made great sense. Fortunately, now we have modern standards that are extensible. They cost us dearly in complexity, but it allows us to plug the next available storage device into a USB orifice, and have it 'just work' Just my $0.02 ;-) Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 10:59, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > >> I once had a brief discussion with Gary Kildall, in which I pleaded with > >> him to create a "secondary" standard for 5.25". > >> He replied, "THE CP/M standard is Single Sided Single Density." > >> He felt that people, disunirregardless of which hardware they were using > >> SHOULD be able to transfer back and forth with 8" SSSD > >> So, we ended up with thousands of 5.25" formats. > > On Tue, 8 Oct 2024, ben via cctalk wrote: > > That is because the 5.25 was 'no standard' format, because the selling of= a > > cheap media device. 35 tracks, single density to who knows what, as > > every other year a new standard and media. > > I think the real reason Kildall stuck with that standard,was sectors were > > 128 bytes, and things had to shoehorn into what memory you had. > > CPM I think was only 2K of ram for the OS,and 256 bytes of system RAM. > > Also, he believed in a single standard, and the user had an obligation to > be able to get to and from the standard. > If he added "secondary" standards, as I was suggesting for 5.25", there > would be a never ending proliferation. > Need a standard for double sided. > Need a standard for double density. > Need a standard for 40 tracks. > Need a standard for 80 tracks. > > Need a standard for 3" > Need a standard for 3.25". > Need a standard for 3.5" > . . . > > By refusing to create a "secondary" standard, he avoided dilution of > the standard, and he stood up for his belief that everybody should at > least be able to comply with THE standard. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > --===============1438526686764024156==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Oct 9 01:15:09 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 01:14:58 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4720421603957921726==" --===============4720421603957921726== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Floppy disk, wuzzat? :) Chuck (still kicking, barely) --===============4720421603957921726==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 9 02:18:04 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 19:17:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0964976913854325958==" --===============0964976913854325958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 9 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Floppy disk, wuzzat? > :) > Chuck > (still kicking, barely) Keep kicking! It's a round piece of magtape material that wasn't long enough to make a tape. Some people even claim that if they ever get the bugs out, it might even replace punchcards! Just think, you could fold it up and carry it in your pocket. There's a hole through the middle for spindling them. And you could get a lot of them into your station wagon hurtling down the highway. 'course, it'd take a lot of them to hold as much as a RAMAC. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0964976913854325958==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 9 03:37:22 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 21:37:13 -0600 Message-ID: <434b7163-0e34-4fcb-b8d3-1a910c2545d8@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5994644182994755102==" --===============5994644182994755102== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-10-08 6:16 p.m., Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > And yet, here we are. > > When I built my first system in 1985 as a trainee technical officer, > the *first* thing I did was copy all of the 8" floppies I could from a > donor system onto my 5.25" DSHD drives (1.2MB - The biggest system in > the neighbourhood at the time), so I could return the borrowed 8" > drive to its owner. > > I never had 8" drives at home. > > I fully accept Kildall's rationale for having one standard - but we > have proven in the 50 years since then that a worldview that is static > doesn't work long term. > > One thing worth considering is that CP/M never had subdirectories - > only User areas which are a pain to search for things within. (User1 - > DIR, User2 - DIR, user 3 - Dir... etc etc..) so limiting floppy size > to Single Density made great sense. Dos also has no subdirectories. So did the hundreds of other 8 bit operating systems. You did need to have two floppies, a: & b: have it work well, but how much software did you have? A spread sheet, word processor and Adventure. https://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archive/games/cpm/ A bit later down the road. Online quote "Microsoft hopes that Xenix will become the preferred choice for software production and exchange", the company stated in 1981.[8] Microsoft referred to its own MS-DOS as its "single-user, single-tasking operating system",[34] and advised customers who wanted multiuser or multitasking support to buy Xenix.[34][35] It planned over time to improve MS-DOS so it would be almost indistinguishable from single-user Xenix, or XEDOS, which would also run on the 68000, Z8000, and LSI-11; they would be upwardly compatible with Xenix, which Byte in 1983 described as "the multi-user MS-DOS of the future".[36][37] Microsoft's Chris Larson described MS-DOS 2.0's Xenix compatibility as "the second most important feature".[38] His company advertised DOS and Xenix together, describing MS-DOS 2.0 (its "single-user OS") as sharing features and system calls with Xenix ("the multi-user, multi-tasking, Unix-derived operating system"), and promising easy porting between ..." Dos 2.0 was to be a single user version of unix. Looking at DOS 2.0 manual, just floppies supported and yes the 8" floppy was supported but not on the PC. > Fortunately, now we have modern standards that are extensible. They > cost us dearly in complexity, but it allows us to plug the next > available storage device into a USB orifice, and have it 'just work' > What happens if does not work. Come fix my system to have Mirror Cast work with my DVD player? I had it play once, hung and never worked since. How many times have you got a product, but it never worked with your system or it got discontinued? 3D movies are a good example, I got a 3D projector and then found they no longer made 3D movies in that format. Since I wear glasses the old red/green spectacles don't work. > Just my $0.02 ;-) > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson Ben. PS. I try to connect, and the PC says disconnecting. --===============5994644182994755102==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 09:55:49 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 10:55:31 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7132804235009163500==" --===============7132804235009163500== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 02:25, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > (still kicking, barely) Oh no! Glad to hear that you are, but something prompted that... Dare I ask? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7132804235009163500==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 10:02:28 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 11:02:12 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6888244885215320971==" --===============6888244885215320971== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 01:05, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > By refusing to create a "secondary" standard, he avoided dilution of > the standard Well, I mean yes, in a theoretical ideal world. https://xkcd.com/927/ But in fact, what he really did was make DOS FAT the standard. With versions for DSDD 40T, DSDD 80T, DSHD 80T, DSED 80T, etc. I know your dislike -- maybe disdain is a better word? -- for using DOS FAT disk sizes as a measure of capacity, but it is what it is. _De facto_ standards tend to trump theoretical or industry ones. Dozens of OSes on as many non-x86 architectures can read and write DOS FAT16 diskettes. Even by the 1980s, many common platforms couldn't read CP/M disks. DR's slowness to adapt to x86 gave DOS its break, and from then on, DOS set the standards. No? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6888244885215320971==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 10:08:50 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 11:08:32 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <434b7163-0e34-4fcb-b8d3-1a910c2545d8@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6176248727587615927==" --===============6176248727587615927== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 04:37, ben via cctalk wrote: > Dos also has no subdirectories. (?) > So did the hundreds of other 8 bit operating > systems. (??) I used several which did. MGT G+DOS was my personal favourite. MSX-DOS is CP/M-binary-compatible but uses MS-DOS FAT disks, with directories, because the same chap wrote them both: Tim Paterson. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6176248727587615927==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 9 10:31:07 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 04:30:57 -0600 Message-ID: <4ac0b899-dfc2-4331-bdd6-4661cfc9bd9c@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0687590164302050302==" --===============0687590164302050302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-10-09 4:08 a.m., Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 04:37, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> Dos also has no subdirectories. > > (?) >> So did the hundreds of other 8 bit operating >> systems. > > (??) The point here, was until hard disks with the PC became common you had the tiny mini-floppies. > I used several which did. MGT G+DOS was my personal favourite. MSX-DOS > is CP/M-binary-compatible but uses MS-DOS FAT disks, with directories, > because the same chap wrote them both: Tim Paterson. > That is new to me, but what cpu? Where are the ADS for said product? Ben. --===============0687590164302050302==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Oct 9 14:42:42 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 14:42:33 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7711886918165524643==" --===============7711886918165524643== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/9/24 02:55, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 02:25, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > >> (still kicking, barely) > > Oh no! Glad to hear that you are, but something prompted that... Dare I ask? The whole thing could be summarized under "How I spent my summer vacation" or "The big C and me". --Chuck --===============7711886918165524643==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Oct 9 14:56:39 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 14:49:17 +0000 Message-ID: <778504a9-aae3-4f64-96c2-d7dbb480d348@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6943127910247129884==" --===============6943127910247129884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/8/24 19:17, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 9 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > It's a round piece of magtape material that wasn't long enough to make a > tape. Heh--that's a pretty accurate description. Invented in the 1950s for audio recording. https://ftldesign.com/Timex/ https://colab.ws/articles/10.1109%2FJRPROC.1961.287786 I'd say that it's all about the holes. --Chuck --===============6943127910247129884==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Wed Oct 9 15:01:53 2024 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 08:01:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6823494392629556522==" --===============6823494392629556522== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 9 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Floppy disk, wuzzat? > I think it's one of these: https://i.imgur.com/XyzsyeD.jpg :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6823494392629556522==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 15:19:26 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 16:19:07 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4371416738823722674==" --===============4371416738823722674== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 15:50, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > The whole thing could be summarized under "How I spent my summer > vacation" or "The big C and me". Ohshit. Sorry to hear that. I hope that they nuke you till you glow and it's successful. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4371416738823722674==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Oct 9 15:24:23 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 15:24:14 +0000 Message-ID: <7595f1ce-9048-40fe-bedf-876cb4310a86@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <778504a9-aae3-4f64-96c2-d7dbb480d348@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7893140390633670376==" --===============7893140390633670376== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/9/24 07:49, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > https://ftldesign.com/Timex/ From the above article: "The unit is as simple to operate as a standard record player; nothing to thread, no tape to break or tangle, no needles to wear out, no complicated controls, no accidental erasures." So Fred, as usual, is very perceptive. --===============7893140390633670376==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 15:32:44 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 16:32:27 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4ac0b899-dfc2-4331-bdd6-4661cfc9bd9c@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3346683296570566965==" --===============3346683296570566965== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 11:31, ben via cctalk wrote: > > The point here, was until hard disks with the PC became common you had > the tiny mini-floppies. I do not understand your points at all. I don't know what "tiny mini-floppies" are. Before the era of the PC, the dominant format was 8". PCs used 5=C2=BC" when introduced in 1981. Then after the PC AT in 1984, 1.2MB HD 5=C2=BC@ disks. Then after ~1987 and the IBM PS/2 range, they standardised on 3=C2=BD high-density 1.4MB disks. So, no, the PC didn't make disks get bigger. They were bigger _before_ the PC and then they got physically _smaller_ but higher in capacity. You also said DOS didn't support subdirectories. Yes it did, from PC DOS 2.0 in 1983. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_DOS_operating_systems In other words, very early on, before even the first 80286 machines. I am 56 and I never saw a pre-DOS 2.x machine in my life. > > I used several which did. MGT G+DOS was my personal favourite. MSX-DOS > > is CP/M-binary-compatible but uses MS-DOS FAT disks, with directories, > > because the same chap wrote them both: Tim Paterson. > > > That is new to me, but what cpu? MGT made a range of disk interfaces for the ZX Spectrum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Gordon_Technology Little known in America but the Spectrum was one of the best-selling microcomputers of all time, selling millions of units and in production from 1982 to 1992, with dozens and dozens of compatible clones from around the world. http://zxspectrum48.i-demo.pl/clones.html So, Z80, all of them. > Where are the ADS for said product? ADS? You want advertisements for a ZX Spectrum disk interface from over 40 years ago? Er, OK. Here are a couple. https://spectrumforeveryone.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/MGT-Plus-D-Adver= t.jpg https://ia902300.us.archive.org/view_archive.php?archive=3D/4/items/World_of_= Spectrum_June_2017_Mirror/World%20of%20Spectrum%20June%202017%20Mirror.zip&fi= le=3DWorld%20of%20Spectrum%20June%202017%20Mirror/sinclair/hardware-adverts/m= /MGTPlusD.gif The DOS that had subdirectories was UNIDOS. Here's the manual: https://web.archive.org/web/20110721112654/http://www.sinclair.hu/speccyalist= a/konyvtar/kezikonyvek/MGT_PlusD_Disciple_UniDos_Manual.pdf For other platforms... well, as i said, MSX-DOS for the MSX range supported FAT disks and subdirectories. https://www.faq.msxnet.org/dos2.html So did Microware OS9: https://www.roug.org/retrocomputing/os/os9/os9guide.pdf It wasn't that rare. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3346683296570566965==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Oct 9 17:22:47 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] RSTS and big MSC disks Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:22:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1221280363499708149==" --===============1221280363499708149== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Earlier there was a question about MSCP disk sizes. I did some checking. RSTS understands all the devices known by name in SIMH, including the "giant"= RF73. As of the "big disk" support, which is in V10.1 and I think a few ear= lier versions, it can handle something that big. It draws the line at 4096 M= B; bigger than that and it will tell you the disk is too big when you try to = initialize it. I thought it might use only the part it can handle, but no, i= t simply refuses entirely. paul --===============1221280363499708149==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 18:17:40 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 11:16:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7362300900184589056==" --===============7362300900184589056== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 8:40=E2=80=AFAM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > MGT made a range of disk interfaces for the ZX Spectrum. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Gordon_Technology > > Little known in America but the Spectrum was one of the best-selling > microcomputers of all time, selling millions of units and in > production from 1982 to 1992, with dozens and dozens of compatible > clones from around the world. > It sounds like the Apple //e of Europe :D Sellam --===============7362300900184589056==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 9 18:53:28 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 18:53:21 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4ac0b899-dfc2-4331-bdd6-4661cfc9bd9c@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4868052586131261297==" --===============4868052586131261297== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roger are you aware of Applesauce and Greaseweasel? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 9, 2024, at 11:50, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2024-10-09 4:08 a.m., Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 04:37, ben via cctalk wro= te: >>> Dos also has no subdirectories. >> (?) >=20 >=20 >>> So did the hundreds of other 8 bit operating >>> systems. >> (??) >=20 > The point here, was until hard disks with the PC became common you had the = tiny mini-floppies. >=20 >> I used several which did. MGT G+DOS was my personal favourite. MSX-DOS >> is CP/M-binary-compatible but uses MS-DOS FAT disks, with directories, >> because the same chap wrote them both: Tim Paterson. > That is new to me, but what cpu? > Where are the ADS for said product? > Ben. >=20 --===============4868052586131261297==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 9 19:04:50 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 19:04:40 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8797653278344173890==" --===============8797653278344173890== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Obscure disk formats. There is a couple projects with hardware that attempt and are pretty successf= ul at doing this, including decoding the many copy protection schemes. Applesauce seems to be the most successful due to the creator being very invo= lved and responsive to solving new issues. There is an Applesauce discord tha= t discusses it.=20 I have no involvement but sm interested.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 9, 2024, at 11:55, Travis Pierce via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFSounds like a fun project and thank you for taking that on. >=20 > The only guide I know of is this one , > which is a good starting point. >=20 > Other than the obvious cleaning tips. I think one suggestion often missed > is to use your ears. You can really hear when a disk read is going bad. >=20 > Travis >=20 >=20 >>=20 --===============8797653278344173890==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 9 19:38:43 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 19:38:36 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5942076650499240734==" --===============5942076650499240734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, make sure to clean the heads of the floppy drive and check the heads to = see if they don=E2=80=99t have any sharp edges, from excessive wear, that co= uld damage the disk. Also spin it up with a scratch disk to see if it spins o= kay. Check the source disk for mold and dirt and see if it spins smoothly in the j= acket w/o hangup.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 9, 2024, at 12:05, Tom Stepleton via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi folks, >=20 > I have a floppy disk data archiving project to undertake, and although I'm > aware that this can sometimes lead to spirited discussion (and hope to > avoid that!), I'm interested in current good practices for pulling data off > of hard-to-replace disks. >=20 > In this situation, the disks are 8" floppies likely in ordinary IBM > 26-sector, 77-track, 128-bytes/sector, double-sided FM format. I have a > flux reader and will have a pair of Shugart 851 drives for the job; these > likely haven't been used for a while, though. At this stage I'll consider > the job done if I manage to get good low-level recordings from the disks: > assuming the FM data decodes well and sector CRCs look good, further > analysis can come later. >=20 > The main risk I'm worried about is physical damage to the media. While > reportedly the disks don't show visible defects (nb: they belong to someone > else so I can't inspect them myself right now), I'm still anxious about any > chance I might find the binder that secures the magnetic material to the > cookie degraded to the point of allowing the oxide to come free. Most other > situations I think I can deal with, but I'd like to have a more concrete > plan if I start to find oxide building up on the heads. >=20 > I'd be interested to know what precautions people might take for common > data recovery problems. One option is cyclomethicone for cleaning and > lubrication if necessary, but other than "you could use this", I'd be > interested to know details of how people put it to use if they are worried > about media failure. Meanwhile, I'm disinclined to use isopropanol or other > more aggressive solvents given received wisdom, although I know opinions > differ here. >=20 > The disks are boot media and other materials relating to the RSRE Flex > operating system as developed > for PERQ workstations. I'm not aware of other copies of this OS being > available, though it would relieve some of the pressure to learn that these > weren't the only ones. The disks themselves are primarily ICL-branded > although a few indicate manufacture or resale by Maxell, DEC, Inmac, among > other brands. >=20 > Is there anything else that people would advise me to look out for? >=20 > I did find this thread > , but > practices may have advanced in the past six years. I know the whiteboard > cleaner that folks seem to have liked is difficult to find these days, > particularly here in Britain. I've also had a hard time finding Photo Flo > or similar photographic wetting agents and have used deionised water with a > drop of dish soap instead. >=20 > Thanks for any advice, > --T --===============5942076650499240734==-- From travispierce70@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 19:52:33 2024 From: Travis Pierce To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:52:13 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21819B99498E0712BF06B21AE47F2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5322520346573042501==" --===============5322520346573042501== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, If you would like some known good disks to test with, I'd be glad to format a few 8 inch disks for you to use as test disks. Just email me and we can figure it out. Chuck sent me a few disks when I was first setting up my 8 inch drives a few years back and that was invaluable. I'd be glad to pass along the favor. Travis On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 1:38=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Tom, make sure to clean the heads of the floppy drive and check the heads > to see if they don=E2=80=99t have any sharp edges, from excessive wear, th= at could > damage the disk. Also spin it up with a scratch disk to see if it spins > okay. > Check the source disk for mold and dirt and see if it spins smoothly in > the jacket w/o hangup. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 9, 2024, at 12:05, Tom Stepleton via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFHi folks, > > > > I have a floppy disk data archiving project to undertake, and although > I'm > > aware that this can sometimes lead to spirited discussion (and hope to > > avoid that!), I'm interested in current good practices for pulling data > off > > of hard-to-replace disks. > > > > In this situation, the disks are 8" floppies likely in ordinary IBM > > 26-sector, 77-track, 128-bytes/sector, double-sided FM format. I have a > > flux reader and will have a pair of Shugart 851 drives for the job; these > > likely haven't been used for a while, though. At this stage I'll consider > > the job done if I manage to get good low-level recordings from the disks: > > assuming the FM data decodes well and sector CRCs look good, further > > analysis can come later. > > > > The main risk I'm worried about is physical damage to the media. While > > reportedly the disks don't show visible defects (nb: they belong to > someone > > else so I can't inspect them myself right now), I'm still anxious about > any > > chance I might find the binder that secures the magnetic material to the > > cookie degraded to the point of allowing the oxide to come free. Most > other > > situations I think I can deal with, but I'd like to have a more concrete > > plan if I start to find oxide building up on the heads. > > > > I'd be interested to know what precautions people might take for common > > data recovery problems. One option is cyclomethicone for cleaning and > > lubrication if necessary, but other than "you could use this", I'd be > > interested to know details of how people put it to use if they are > worried > > about media failure. Meanwhile, I'm disinclined to use isopropanol or > other > > more aggressive solvents given received wisdom, although I know opinions > > differ here. > > > > The disks are boot media and other materials relating to the RSRE Flex > > operating system as > developed > > for PERQ workstations. I'm not aware of other copies of this OS being > > available, though it would relieve some of the pressure to learn that > these > > weren't the only ones. The disks themselves are primarily ICL-branded > > although a few indicate manufacture or resale by Maxell, DEC, Inmac, > among > > other brands. > > > > Is there anything else that people would advise me to look out for? > > > > I did find this thread > > , but > > practices may have advanced in the past six years. I know the whiteboard > > cleaner that folks seem to have liked is difficult to find these days, > > particularly here in Britain. I've also had a hard time finding Photo Flo > > or similar photographic wetting agents and have used deionised water > with a > > drop of dish soap instead. > > > > Thanks for any advice, > > --T > --===============5322520346573042501==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 9 20:30:59 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:30:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4ac0b899-dfc2-4331-bdd6-4661cfc9bd9c@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8930105136425081647==" --===============8930105136425081647== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I used several which did. MGT G+DOS was my personal favourite. MSX-DOS >> is CP/M-binary-compatible but uses MS-DOS FAT disks, with directories, >> because the same chap wrote them both: Tim Paterson. On Wed, 9 Oct 2024, ben via cctalk wrote: > That is new to me, but what cpu? > Where are the ADS for said product? MSX is unknown in USA! It was for Z80, and the disk format was MS-DOS I saw some at comdex. I waited for MSX machines to showup here, but it never happened, although I did find [and buy] a Yamaha MSX machine from Waite Group, at John Craig's Computer Swap America. Didn't see another one. Generic PC clones got so cheap here that nobody would buy Z80 any more. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8930105136425081647==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Oct 9 20:41:56 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 20:38:59 +0000 Message-ID: <316ec6ae-bc89-40f8-8fbb-f9489449db20@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4061789392985303346==" --===============4061789392985303346== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anent strange floppy formats--I recall there being one in the early 70s that used a UART to encode an entire track (1 sector per track). I'm not talking about using a USRT-but an honest-to-goodness 8-bit plus parity start-stop, etc. device. Was that one an OSI innovation? -Chuck --===============4061789392985303346==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 9 20:44:49 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 14:44:42 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4492956013454336399==" --===============4492956013454336399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-10-09 2:30 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > MSX is unknown in USA! > It was for Z80, and the disk format was MS-DOS > > I saw some at comdex. > I waited for MSX machines to showup here, but it never happened, > although I did find [and buy] a Yamaha MSX machine from Waite Group, at > John Craig's Computer Swap America. > Didn't see another one. > > Generic PC clones got so cheap here that nobody would buy Z80 any more. I thought it was the cheap apple clones that did it, as most CP/M was on the S-100 bus. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============4492956013454336399==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Oct 9 21:28:16 2024 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSTS and big MSC disks Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 14:27:59 -0700 Message-ID: <214FAF47-0E2E-4524-B78A-880020F75BBD@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1651969654948120915==" --===============1651969654948120915== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Oct 9, 2024, at 10:22 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Earlier there was a question about MSCP disk sizes. I did some checking. >=20 > RSTS understands all the devices known by name in SIMH, including the "gian= t" RF73. As of the "big disk" support, which is in V10.1 and I think a few e= arlier versions, it can handle something that big. It draws the line at 4096= MB; bigger than that and it will tell you the disk is too big when you try t= o initialize it. I thought it might use only the part it can handle, but no,= it simply refuses entirely. >=20 > Paul I hate to think what setting up a 4GB drive would look like. I have a 1GB SC= SI HD for my PDP-11/73 (assuming the drive isn=E2=80=99t dead). I still reme= mber just how long it took the RSTS/E 10.1 install to prepare that drive (so = long I only did a single pass on the drive test). On a related note, Paul, do you have any idea if RSTS/E can be installed from= a CD-ROM? I=E2=80=99ve done installs of RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD, but cou= ldn=E2=80=99t figure out how to do a RSTS/E install from CD. I can=E2=80=99t= remember if I was able to use 4mm DAT, or if I had to use a TK50 (it=E2=80= =99s been a *LONG* time since I did any installs). Zane --===============1651969654948120915==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 9 21:38:29 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 14:38:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <316ec6ae-bc89-40f8-8fbb-f9489449db20@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8315448281275609132==" --===============8315448281275609132== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 9 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Anent strange floppy formats--I recall there being one in the early 70s > that used a UART to encode an entire track (1 sector per track). I'm > not talking about using a USRT-but an honest-to-goodness 8-bit plus > parity start-stop, etc. device. > Was that one an OSI innovation? Quite likely. OSI (Ohio Scientific, Inc.) interfaced disks with a 6820 and 6850! : https://osi.marks-lab.com/boards/schematics/OSI470.pdf https://retrocomputingforum.com/t/the-strange-world-of-ohio-scientific-floppy= -disk-controllers/3997 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8315448281275609132==-- From stepleton@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 22:07:25 2024 From: Tom Stepleton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 23:07:07 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21819B99498E0712BF06B21AE47F2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5256908569758193788==" --===============5256908569758193788== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Wayne! It's handy to get topical advice, as interesting as musings about Gary Kildall and CP/M floppy standards may be :-) Cheers, --T On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 8:38=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S wr= ote: > Tom, make sure to clean the heads of the floppy drive and check the heads > to see if they don=E2=80=99t have any sharp edges, from excessive wear, th= at could > damage the disk. Also spin it up with a scratch disk to see if it spins > okay. > Check the source disk for mold and dirt and see if it spins smoothly in > the jacket w/o hangup. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 9, 2024, at 12:05, Tom Stepleton via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFHi folks, > > > > I have a floppy disk data archiving project to undertake, and although > I'm > > aware that this can sometimes lead to spirited discussion (and hope to > > avoid that!), I'm interested in current good practices for pulling data > off > > of hard-to-replace disks. > > > > In this situation, the disks are 8" floppies likely in ordinary IBM > > 26-sector, 77-track, 128-bytes/sector, double-sided FM format. I have a > > flux reader and will have a pair of Shugart 851 drives for the job; these > > likely haven't been used for a while, though. At this stage I'll consider > > the job done if I manage to get good low-level recordings from the disks: > > assuming the FM data decodes well and sector CRCs look good, further > > analysis can come later. > > > > The main risk I'm worried about is physical damage to the media. While > > reportedly the disks don't show visible defects (nb: they belong to > someone > > else so I can't inspect them myself right now), I'm still anxious about > any > > chance I might find the binder that secures the magnetic material to the > > cookie degraded to the point of allowing the oxide to come free. Most > other > > situations I think I can deal with, but I'd like to have a more concrete > > plan if I start to find oxide building up on the heads. > > > > I'd be interested to know what precautions people might take for common > > data recovery problems. One option is cyclomethicone for cleaning and > > lubrication if necessary, but other than "you could use this", I'd be > > interested to know details of how people put it to use if they are > worried > > about media failure. Meanwhile, I'm disinclined to use isopropanol or > other > > more aggressive solvents given received wisdom, although I know opinions > > differ here. > > > > The disks are boot media and other materials relating to the RSRE Flex > > operating system as > developed > > for PERQ workstations. I'm not aware of other copies of this OS being > > available, though it would relieve some of the pressure to learn that > these > > weren't the only ones. The disks themselves are primarily ICL-branded > > although a few indicate manufacture or resale by Maxell, DEC, Inmac, > among > > other brands. > > > > Is there anything else that people would advise me to look out for? > > > > I did find this thread > > , but > > practices may have advanced in the past six years. I know the whiteboard > > cleaner that folks seem to have liked is difficult to find these days, > > particularly here in Britain. I've also had a hard time finding Photo Flo > > or similar photographic wetting agents and have used deionised water > with a > > drop of dish soap instead. > > > > Thanks for any advice, > > --T > --===============5256908569758193788==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 9 22:15:26 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 22:15:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1403410729675722108==" --===============1403410729675722108== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My pleasure. Be aware that not all floppy disks were written the same way. Re= gardless of different filesystems, there were different flux encoding schemes= too. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 9, 2024, at 15:07, Tom Stepleton wrote: =EF=BB=BF Thanks Wayne! It's handy to get topical advice, as interesting as musings abo= ut Gary Kildall and CP/M floppy standards may be :-) Cheers, --T On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 8:38=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S > wrote: Tom, make sure to clean the heads of the floppy drive and check the heads to = see if they don=E2=80=99t have any sharp edges, from excessive wear, that co= uld damage the disk. Also spin it up with a scratch disk to see if it spins o= kay. Check the source disk for mold and dirt and see if it spins smoothly in the j= acket w/o hangup. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 9, 2024, at 12:05, Tom Stepleton via cctalk > wrote: > > =EF=BB=BFHi folks, > > I have a floppy disk data archiving project to undertake, and although I'm > aware that this can sometimes lead to spirited discussion (and hope to > avoid that!), I'm interested in current good practices for pulling data off > of hard-to-replace disks. > > In this situation, the disks are 8" floppies likely in ordinary IBM > 26-sector, 77-track, 128-bytes/sector, double-sided FM format. I have a > flux reader and will have a pair of Shugart 851 drives for the job; these > likely haven't been used for a while, though. At this stage I'll consider > the job done if I manage to get good low-level recordings from the disks: > assuming the FM data decodes well and sector CRCs look good, further > analysis can come later. > > The main risk I'm worried about is physical damage to the media. While > reportedly the disks don't show visible defects (nb: they belong to someone > else so I can't inspect them myself right now), I'm still anxious about any > chance I might find the binder that secures the magnetic material to the > cookie degraded to the point of allowing the oxide to come free. Most other > situations I think I can deal with, but I'd like to have a more concrete > plan if I start to find oxide building up on the heads. > > I'd be interested to know what precautions people might take for common > data recovery problems. One option is cyclomethicone for cleaning and > lubrication if necessary, but other than "you could use this", I'd be > interested to know details of how people put it to use if they are worried > about media failure. Meanwhile, I'm disinclined to use isopropanol or other > more aggressive solvents given received wisdom, although I know opinions > differ here. > > The disks are boot media and other materials relating to the RSRE Flex > operating system as developed > for PERQ workstations. I'm not aware of other copies of this OS being > available, though it would relieve some of the pressure to learn that these > weren't the only ones. The disks themselves are primarily ICL-branded > although a few indicate manufacture or resale by Maxell, DEC, Inmac, among > other brands. > > Is there anything else that people would advise me to look out for? > > I did find this thread > , but > practices may have advanced in the past six years. I know the whiteboard > cleaner that folks seem to have liked is difficult to find these days, > particularly here in Britain. I've also had a hard time finding Photo Flo > or similar photographic wetting agents and have used deionised water with a > drop of dish soap instead. > > Thanks for any advice, > --T --===============1403410729675722108==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 9 22:24:10 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 15:24:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5549763000592794268==" --===============5549763000592794268== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 2024-10-09 2:30 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> MSX is unknown in USA! >> It was for Z80, and the disk format was MS-DOS >> . . . >> Generic PC clones got so cheap here that nobody would buy Z80 any more. On Wed, 9 Oct 2024, ben via cctalk wrote: > I thought it was the cheap apple clones that did it, as most CP/M was on th= e=20 > S-100 bus. MSX was later; PC was thoroughly dominant by then, and Apple was solidly=20 estalishing Macintosh. MSX-DOS was created by Tim Paterson as a port to Z80 of MS-DOS=20 1.25. The rest, and hardware, was primarily Japanese, but later marketed=20 everywhere except USA. https://www.msx.org/wiki/The_History_of_MSX-DOS -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5549763000592794268==-- From doug@doughq.com Wed Oct 9 22:41:58 2024 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 09:41:38 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7293618972574172214==" --===============7293618972574172214== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm, MSX.... I only knew of MSX here in Australia (circa 1985/6 ish) because the shop where I hung out, ogling Toshiba T300 PC compatibles has an MSX machine they were trying to sell. I recall its colorful keyboard Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 09:24, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 2024-10-09 2:30 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > >> MSX is unknown in USA! > >> It was for Z80, and the disk format was MS-DOS > >> . . . > >> Generic PC clones got so cheap here that nobody would buy Z80 any more. > > On Wed, 9 Oct 2024, ben via cctalk wrote: > > I thought it was the cheap apple clones that did it, as most CP/M was on = the > > S-100 bus. > > MSX was later; PC was thoroughly dominant by then, and Apple was solidly > estalishing Macintosh. > > MSX-DOS was created by Tim Paterson as a port to Z80 of MS-DOS > 1.25. The rest, and hardware, was primarily Japanese, but later marketed > everywhere except USA. > > https://www.msx.org/wiki/The_History_of_MSX-DOS > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7293618972574172214==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 9 22:42:58 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 15:42:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181BFDFADC8C557A0C5B5F8E47F2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4267338818327481968==" --===============4267338818327481968== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 9 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > My pleasure. Be aware that not all floppy disks were written the same way. = Regardless of different filesystems, there were different flux encoding schem= es too. MOST are FM, MFM, or GCR. But not all. f'rinstance, Amiga is MFM, but does not use WD/IBM sector headers, so a=20 179x controller could read an Amiga track, but parsing sectors and file=20 system has to be done in software. . . .and other variations, ranging from hard/soft sectors to CLV/CAV=20 (constant linear velocity (varying motor speed), constant Angular=20 velocity (fixed motor speed)) old floppies provide a neverending source of interesting stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4267338818327481968==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 22:48:49 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSTS and big MSC disks Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 15:48:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <214FAF47-0E2E-4524-B78A-880020F75BBD@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1782392172565648560==" --===============1782392172565648560== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 9, 2024, 2:45=E2=80=AFPM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > On a related note, Paul, do you have any idea if RSTS/E can be installed > from a CD-ROM? I=E2=80=99ve done installs of RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD, b= ut > couldn=E2=80=99t figure out how to do a RSTS/E install from CD. I can=E2= =80=99t remember > if I was able to use 4mm DAT, or if I had to use a TK50 (it=E2=80=99s been = a *LONG* > time since I did any installs). > > Zane > I didn't have any issues installing 10.1 from Exabyte 8mm tape drives attached to CMD TMSCP SCSI controllers. I never tried 4mm DAT. --===============1782392172565648560==-- From bear@typewritten.org Thu Oct 10 00:01:12 2024 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 16:28:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <316ec6ae-bc89-40f8-8fbb-f9489449db20@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2591577805818581462==" --===============2591577805818581462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 9, 2024, at 1:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Anent strange floppy formats--I recall there being one in the early 70s > that used a UART to encode an entire track (1 sector per track). I'm > not talking about using a USRT-but an honest-to-goodness 8-bit plus > parity start-stop, etc. device. >=20 > Was that one an OSI innovation? Unsure of the 1 SPT detail or whether it was their innovation specifically, b= ut that otherwise matches my (limited) understanding of the OSI FDC.=20 ok bear. --===============2591577805818581462==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Thu Oct 10 00:16:21 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 17:06:27 -0700 Message-ID: <8a9e6ceb-ce84-475d-97c0-a3c4c764b230@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6445151494812101248==" --===============6445151494812101248== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > MSX-DOS was created by Tim Paterson as a port to Z80 of MS-DOS 1.25.=C2=A0 = The rest, > and hardware, was primarily Japanese, but later marketed everywhere except = USA. I remember a handful of MSX-type systems in the USA, though, and some were widely advertised, like the pre-/almost-MSX Spectravideo systems like the SV-318 and SV-328, and the Yamaha CX5M, though Yamaha was pitching this almost entirely as a music computer given the MSX capability would have been almost irrelevant to an American buyer. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- ACTUAL CLASSIFIED AD: Parachute, used once, never opened, small stain. $100 --===============6445151494812101248==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Oct 10 09:22:30 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Valuable floppy archiving: seeking current best practice Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 10:22:13 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2644750185356713909==" --===============2644750185356713909== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 19:25, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > It sounds like the Apple //e of Europe :D I think there were more _unofficial_ Spectrum clones than Apple ][ clones. We didn't know about them until after the fall of the Iron Curtain and the rise of the Web though. _Official_ Spectrum variants and compatibles are comparable: maybe under a dozen models in all? The Sinclair ZX series were the Apple II series of Europe: the Apple II was the first sub-$1000 home computer, but $1000 was too expensive for Europeans back then, so the machines that had the impact over here were the first sub-£100 computers, which was where Sinclair led the field and was strongest. For reference, in 1981, £1=$2. So Sinclair made the first sub-$200 home computers. They were sold in America, but to Americans they seemed like toys and they flopped. And Americans being American, they tend to assume that means that they flopped everywhere and were just a footnote, whereas in Britain and Europe, the Sinclair machines sold in the tens of millions, so in the very early years, it was Commodore and Atari that were expensive premium kit that only rich kids had. Apple was the footnote: nobody owned those things -- they cost as much as a car and were not very well-specified. I was a hobbyist from 1981 or so and I don't think I ever saw or knew a single person who had an Apple II. They were like rocking-horse poop. You heard about them, this weird clunky super-expensive low-spec computer that Americans were bafflingly into. We had TRS-80 kit in the Tandy shops, but they were still expensive and few bought them. Loads of people had TI-994As in the early days, because they got really cheap. Because of course most kids just played games, the C64 became big after 3-4 rounds of price cuts, when it dropped to the point that it was only 2x or 3x the price of a Sinclair. PCs were basically unknown outside of prosperous businesses until Amstrad launched the first affordable-to-Brits PC clone: the PC1512 in 1986. 'Til then, if an Apple II cost as much as a used Ford, then a Compaq cost as much as a new Cadillac. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============2644750185356713909==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Oct 10 17:10:05 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSTS and big MSC disks Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 13:09:54 -0400 Message-ID: <06EE8342-A8CE-4FD5-BEB7-B6DF2294157D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <214FAF47-0E2E-4524-B78A-880020F75BBD@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7456781306012128553==" --===============7456781306012128553== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 9, 2024, at 5:27 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >=20 > On Oct 9, 2024, at 10:22 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> Earlier there was a question about MSCP disk sizes. I did some checking. >>=20 >> RSTS understands all the devices known by name in SIMH, including the "gia= nt" RF73. As of the "big disk" support, which is in V10.1 and I think a few = earlier versions, it can handle something that big. It draws the line at 409= 6 MB; bigger than that and it will tell you the disk is too big when you try = to initialize it. I thought it might use only the part it can handle, but no= , it simply refuses entirely. >>=20 >> Paul >=20 >=20 > I hate to think what setting up a 4GB drive would look like. I have a 1GB = SCSI HD for my PDP-11/73 (assuming the drive isn=E2=80=99t dead). I still re= member just how long it took the RSTS/E 10.1 install to prepare that drive (s= o long I only did a single pass on the drive test). True, though of course you can tell it to skip the pattern test, and then you= can also tell it to skip the erase pass. If you do this then the initialize= is quite fast. paul --===============7456781306012128553==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Oct 10 17:10:56 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fwd: RSTS and big MSC disks Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 13:10:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8935824842036438747==" --===============8935824842036438747== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I meant to reply-all for this. paul > Begin forwarded message: >=20 >> On Oct 9, 2024, at 5:27 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >>=20 >> On Oct 9, 2024, at 10:22 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> Earlier there was a question about MSCP disk sizes. I did some checking. >>>=20 >>> RSTS understands all the devices known by name in SIMH, including the "gi= ant" RF73. As of the "big disk" support, which is in V10.1 and I think a few= earlier versions, it can handle something that big. It draws the line at 40= 96 MB; bigger than that and it will tell you the disk is too big when you try= to initialize it. I thought it might use only the part it can handle, but n= o, it simply refuses entirely. >>>=20 >>> Paul >>=20 >>=20 >> I hate to think what setting up a 4GB drive would look like. I have a 1GB= SCSI HD for my PDP-11/73 (assuming the drive isn=E2=80=99t dead). I still r= emember just how long it took the RSTS/E 10.1 install to prepare that drive (= so long I only did a single pass on the drive test). >>=20 >> On a related note, Paul, do you have any idea if RSTS/E can be installed f= rom a CD-ROM? I=E2=80=99ve done installs of RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD, but = couldn=E2=80=99t figure out how to do a RSTS/E install from CD. I can=E2=80= =99t remember if I was able to use 4mm DAT, or if I had to use a TK50 (it=E2= =80=99s been a *LONG* time since I did any installs). >=20 > I have never seen a RSTS kit on CD-ROM, but it should work just fine. At o= ne time I worked with Fred Knight to help create a "combined kits" CDROM -- o= ne that would hold RSTS plus all the layered products on a bootable CD, inclu= ding at least a dummy standard CDROM file system so you could recognize it. = That required placing two file systems on one device, which turns out to be p= ossible because the starting points ("superblock") of the two are in differen= t blocks. My RSTSFLX V2.x supports creating such a thing. >=20 > While I knew of the plans, I don't think they were ever completed; I certai= nly never saw any actual delivery. >=20 > So anyway, if you were to create a RSTS disk image file with kits on it and= an MSCP bootstrap, and burn that to CDROM, I would think it would be bootabl= e and useable. You might give it a try! >=20 > paul --===============8935824842036438747==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 11:51:41 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 14:51:24 +0300 Message-ID: <48548357-1A1D-48A6-A423-0761675931F1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3372599925648304966==" --===============3372599925648304966== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a Cyber 18= 0/860a. These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. One approach would be to use a 50Hz/400Hz power converter. There are ones on = the market creating almost pure sinus output with minimal harmonics. Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, possibly = by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple KW r= ange or did this in the past? Best Andreas --===============3372599925648304966==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 12:24:56 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 08:24:49 -0400 Message-ID: <3EADA964-DF96-4F26-A758-22D430247A9A@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <48548357-1A1D-48A6-A423-0761675931F1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2980222000404574754==" --===============2980222000404574754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would a motor generator be less expensive? > On Oct 12, 2024, at 7:51 AM, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a Cyber = 180/860a. >=20 > These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. >=20 > One approach would be to use a 50Hz/400Hz power converter. There are ones o= n the market creating almost pure sinus output with minimal harmonics. >=20 > Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, possibl= y by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. >=20 > Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple KW= range or did this in the past? >=20 > Best >=20 > Andreas --===============2980222000404574754==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Oct 12 14:47:32 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 14:47:22 +0000 Message-ID: <829ce051-3b59-4884-9c5a-33be19ce94db@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <48548357-1A1D-48A6-A423-0761675931F1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1069419908399216244==" --===============1069419908399216244== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/12/24 04:51, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a Cyber = 180/860a. >=20 > These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. ISTR that 400Hz 3-phase is required. --===============1069419908399216244==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Oct 12 15:18:58 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 10:18:50 -0500 Message-ID: <8e90d683-2818-6876-166f-c576dd36bbb8@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <48548357-1A1D-48A6-A423-0761675931F1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8316413776408252188==" --===============8316413776408252188== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/12/24 06:51, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a Cyber = 180/860a. > > These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. > > One approach would be to use a 50Hz/400Hz power converter. There are ones o= n the market creating almost pure sinus output with minimal harmonics. > > Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, possibl= y by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. > > Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple KW= range or did this in the past? What level of power does this machine use?=C2=A0 What are the DC=20 voltages to the logic?=C2=A0 How many different voltages are=20 required? Does the system use multiple small AC/DC=20 converters, or just one huge DC supply for all the logic=20 using that voltage? Jon --===============8316413776408252188==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Oct 12 15:24:03 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 10:23:56 -0500 Message-ID: <3613b6ba-cd8c-16c2-a2f7-125baa3b5461@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <829ce051-3b59-4884-9c5a-33be19ce94db@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8344757232689659080==" --===============8344757232689659080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/12/24 09:47, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/12/24 04:51, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a Cyber= 180/860a. >> >> These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. > ISTR that 400Hz 3-phase is required. > The IBM 370/145 had a motor/generator set with a 20 Hp 60Hz=20 motor and a 17 KVA 400 Hz 120/208 3-phase alternator.=C2=A0 This=20 was massive overkill for the 2.5 KW model 145, so I assume=20 they used the same MG unit for the 370/158 model. Good luck finding one of those now! As for the sensibility of going this way, be sure you have=20 vast amounts of power available to start such an MG unit.=C2=A0=20 The phase current in that MG was around 60 A no matter the=20 load (phase angle changes with load), and the starting surge=20 was WAY worse. Jon --===============8344757232689659080==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Oct 12 16:38:03 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 16:37:52 +0000 Message-ID: <86b40cd3-1ed3-4075-a448-66d97417bfb8@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <3613b6ba-cd8c-16c2-a2f7-125baa3b5461@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2993609875722187675==" --===============2993609875722187675== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/12/24 08:23, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/12/24 09:47, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/12/24 04:51, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a >>> Cyber 180/860a. >>> >>> These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. >> ISTR that 400Hz 3-phase is required. >> > The IBM 370/145 had a motor/generator set with a 20 Hp 60Hz motor and a > 17 KVA 400 Hz 120/208 3-phase alternator.  This was massive overkill for > the 2.5 KW model 145, so I assume they used the same MG unit for the > 370/158 model. > > Good luck finding one of those now! Still to be found in the aviation business as ground units. E.g. https://acim.nidec.com/en-us/generators/leroy-somer/products/industrial/400hz --===============2993609875722187675==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 12 17:26:13 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 10:25:57 -0700 Message-ID: <413cd9be6bcb1d03c866dbccbe03b6097f924944.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <48548357-1A1D-48A6-A423-0761675931F1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6751000270400196237==" --===============6751000270400196237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 2024-10-12 at 14:51 +0300, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a > Cyber 180/860a. > > These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. > > One approach would be to use a 50Hz/400Hz power converter. There are > ones on the market creating almost pure sinus output with minimal > harmonics. > > Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, > possibly by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. > > Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the > multiple KW range or did this in the past? Computer History Museum in Mountain View, CA bought an IBM 1401 from Germany, and needed 50 Hz power for it. Contact Rob Garner . They have a second one from Connecticut. The cool address (for their collection) is 1401 Shoreline Boulevard. John Zabolitsky has a collection in Neubiberg on the southeast edge of Munich. He has some Cyber machines. I don't know whether he has a 180, and I don't know which ones are operating. He has a VAX that's being used routinely. > > Best > > Andreas --===============6751000270400196237==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 12 17:28:28 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 10:28:17 -0700 Message-ID: <7a5ec67fa4e1f89fbc9bb6185b5e263f8a1f4a6a.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <3EADA964-DF96-4F26-A758-22D430247A9A@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0715296979663759348==" --===============0715296979663759348== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 2024-10-12 at 08:24 -0400, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: > Would a motor generator be less expensive? AC-DC-AC high-voltage long-distance transmission lines such as the Pacific Intertie originally used motor generators, then thyratrons, now all semiconductors. > > On Oct 12, 2024, at 7:51 AM, hupfadekroua via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on > > a Cyber 180/860a. > > > > These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. > > > > One approach would be to use a 50Hz/400Hz power converter. There > > are ones on the market creating almost pure sinus output with > > minimal harmonics. > > > > Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, > > possibly by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. > > > > Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the > > multiple KW range or did this in the past? > > > > Best > > > > Andreas --===============0715296979663759348==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 12 17:32:21 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 10:32:09 -0700 Message-ID: <0919af1ec0a610a1c6c67b2c50554d304f2d9c79.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <829ce051-3b59-4884-9c5a-33be19ce94db@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5486245107412299663==" --===============5486245107412299663== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 2024-10-12 at 14:47 +0000, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/12/24 04:51, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on > > a Cyber 180/860a. > > > > These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. > > ISTR that 400Hz 3-phase is required. Univac 1108 had a cabinet called CTMC that was full of serial ports. It needed 400 Hz (but the rest of the system ran on 60 Hz power). --===============5486245107412299663==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 17:46:06 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 20:45:45 +0300 Message-ID: <84CAA9CF-DF32-4507-AC48-47A9B252055F@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3613b6ba-cd8c-16c2-a2f7-125baa3b5461@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8828842422413008677==" --===============8828842422413008677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The system is based in a minimal configuration of the following racks using a= own psu per unit. CPU Interconnect Memory IOU to be extended by a second CPU rack for a dual processor configuration. If the interconnect rack does have an own psu we don=E2=80=98t know now, sinc= e this unit has to be picked up next. Peripheral external device controllers have to be assessed separately. These = will be part of a future pickup. Even the CC545 Console will be a challenge. Luckily we saved one before being shipped via the SAP collection to CHM. The next upcoming tasks will be a detailed inspection of the system as well a= s to dig into the documentation. Luckily some docs are on bitsavers, e.g. the site prep guides and we are awai= ting paper based docs or will have access. We are able to provide 73KW 3 Phase 50Hz electrical power as of today. The real power consumption has to be assessed based on the documentation. To use a modern digital controlled frequency converter will have the advantag= e to limit the power surge during startup. Andreas > Am 12.10.2024 um 18:24 schrieb Jon Elson via cctalk : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 10/12/24 09:47, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> On 10/12/24 04:51, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi all, >>>=20 >>> after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a Cybe= r 180/860a. >>>=20 >>> These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. >> ISTR that 400Hz 3-phase is required. >>=20 > The IBM 370/145 had a motor/generator set with a 20 Hp 60Hz motor and a 17 = KVA 400 Hz 120/208 3-phase alternator. This was massive overkill for the 2.5= KW model 145, so I assume they used the same MG unit for the 370/158 model. >=20 > Good luck finding one of those now! >=20 > As for the sensibility of going this way, be sure you have vast amounts of = power available to start such an MG unit. The phase current in that MG was a= round 60 A no matter the load (phase angle changes with load), and the starti= ng surge was WAY worse. >=20 > Jon --===============8828842422413008677==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Sat Oct 12 18:55:08 2024 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 11:54:48 -0700 Message-ID: <6D38D586-3850-4A76-9992-04A15FCE954F@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <48548357-1A1D-48A6-A423-0761675931F1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1591396027524730334==" --===============1591396027524730334== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024Oct 12,, at 4:51 AM, hupfadekroua via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a Cyber = 180/860a. ... > Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, possibl= y by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. >=20 > Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple KW= range or did this in the past? If I recall, the late LCM did this (swapped out the original supply modules a= nd put in modern switching supplies) for one of their large machines. (Again,= IIRC) there were pictures on the website of the new supplies installed in th= e cabinets. I kinda think it was the CDC 6500, but was perhaps one of the DEC = -10's. Of course, you can=E2=80=99t just contact contact the LCM anymore. Was it Rich Alderson from, or formerly, on the list who used to work at LCM? --===============1591396027524730334==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Oct 12 19:31:11 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 15:30:57 -0400 Message-ID: <938D8EE9-09E4-4710-97AC-3E803DE965AF@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <3EADA964-DF96-4F26-A758-22D430247A9A@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8024978434006297162==" --===============8024978434006297162== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Years ago I commented (on this list, probably) that a "VFC" would likely make= a good 400 Hz supply. VFC is "Variable frequency controller", a device that= takes mains input and turns it into three phase output of a frequency of you= r choice. The upper frequency is typically fairly low; I don't think mine re= aches 400 Hz but then again it cost me less than $100 for a unit that can dri= ve a 3 hp motor. That one takes either single or three phase (220 volt) inpu= t; larger ones are normally specified as 3 phase only though chances are they= would in fact work if you fed them single phase power. I'd expect them to be a whole lot cheaper than motor-generator sets, and also= far more available and reliable. paul > On Oct 12, 2024, at 8:24 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Would a motor generator be less expensive? >=20 >> On Oct 12, 2024, at 7:51 AM, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> Hi all, >>=20 >> after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a Cyber= 180/860a. >>=20 >> These systems as other systems before are using 400Hz psus. >>=20 >> One approach would be to use a 50Hz/400Hz power converter. There are ones = on the market creating almost pure sinus output with minimal harmonics. >>=20 >> Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, possib= ly by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. >>=20 >> Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple K= W range or did this in the past? >>=20 >> Best >>=20 >> Andreas --===============8024978434006297162==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Oct 12 19:47:15 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 19:47:07 +0000 Message-ID: <5e21a259-ee12-4cc0-910a-c332f4058087@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <6D38D586-3850-4A76-9992-04A15FCE954F@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1752401910069946803==" --===============1752401910069946803== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/12/24 11:54, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: . >> Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, possib= ly by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. >> >> Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple K= W range or did this in the past? I recall that one of the benefits of using an MG set (probably better referred to as a rotary converter, or motor-alternator set) is the ability to float though short term power glitches. I remember summer employment at a drive-in movie theater during my summers working as a projectionist. Power supply for the DC carbon arc lamps was supplied by a 40 Hp MG set located in its own building. Such things do generate a fair amount of noise. Does this date me? --Chuck --===============1752401910069946803==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 12 20:23:10 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 13:22:58 -0700 Message-ID: <45b160e34e0da9dc3dcdc9f740ec4a83641d4099.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <5e21a259-ee12-4cc0-910a-c332f4058087@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6734779207896135861==" --===============6734779207896135861== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 2024-10-12 at 19:47 +0000, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/12/24 11:54, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > . > > > Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern > > > ones, possibly by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. > > > > > > Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the > > > multiple KW range or did this in the past? > > I recall that one of the benefits of using an MG set (probably better > referred to as a rotary converter, or motor-alternator set) is the > ability to float though short term power glitches. > > I remember summer employment at a drive-in movie theater during my > summers working as a projectionist.  Power supply for the DC carbon > arc > lamps was supplied by a 40 Hp MG set located in its own building.  > Such > things do generate a fair amount of noise. > > Does this date me? Like Felix Unger in The Odd Couple, did you wear your seat belt in the drive-in theater? > > --Chuck > > --===============6734779207896135861==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 12 20:42:00 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 14:41:51 -0600 Message-ID: <551b95cd-28e2-454b-aa52-1dab9c9dbaac@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <5e21a259-ee12-4cc0-910a-c332f4058087@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1208401961699185623==" --===============1208401961699185623== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-10-12 1:47 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/12/24 11:54, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > I remember summer employment at a drive-in movie theater during my > summers working as a projectionist. Power supply for the DC carbon arc > lamps was supplied by a 40 Hp MG set located in its own building. Such > things do generate a fair amount of noise. > > Does this date me? Only if you have the 3D glasses. :) > --Chuck > --===============1208401961699185623==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Oct 12 20:44:51 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 16:44:44 -0400 Message-ID: <345C4108-EBCD-4BDD-BCA1-35B5948CBB11@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <5e21a259-ee12-4cc0-910a-c332f4058087@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6382577910650746988==" --===============6382577910650746988== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 12, 2024, at 3:47 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 10/12/24 11:54, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > . >>> Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, possi= bly by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. >>>=20 >>> Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple = KW range or did this in the past? >=20 > I recall that one of the benefits of using an MG set (probably better > referred to as a rotary converter, or motor-alternator set) is the > ability to float though short term power glitches. Yes, that is true. If you can find an MG set for an affordable price it's a = nice solution, though it does come with the maintenance and reliability consi= derations of any mechanical device. paul --===============6382577910650746988==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Oct 12 20:54:25 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 15:54:18 -0500 Message-ID: <4c39a22b-2a24-db65-9c15-7ef01e4676ff@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <938D8EE9-09E4-4710-97AC-3E803DE965AF@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6060569349533968759==" --===============6060569349533968759== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/12/24 14:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Years ago I commented (on this list, probably) that a "VFC" would likely ma= ke a good 400 Hz supply. VFC is "Variable frequency controller", a device th= at takes mains input and turns it into three phase output of a frequency of y= our choice. The upper frequency is typically fairly low; I don't think mine = reaches 400 Hz but then again it cost me less than $100 for a unit that can d= rive a 3 hp motor. That one takes either single or three phase (220 volt) in= put; larger ones are normally specified as 3 phase only though chances are th= ey would in fact work if you fed them single phase power. VFDs use IGBTs to create variable width square waves of=20 about 400 V.=C2=A0 These can be turned into appropriate waveforms=20 with a filter, but you sure don't want to feed these=20 directly into any kind of computer power supply directly. Jon --===============6060569349533968759==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Oct 12 20:58:12 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 16:58:05 -0400 Message-ID: <2E65B1E4-1DCD-4379-82DD-787FAFDDDC7C@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <4c39a22b-2a24-db65-9c15-7ef01e4676ff@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0313098995953134013==" --===============0313098995953134013== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 12, 2024, at 4:54 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On 10/12/24 14:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Years ago I commented (on this list, probably) that a "VFC" would likely m= ake a good 400 Hz supply. VFC is "Variable frequency controller", a device t= hat takes mains input and turns it into three phase output of a frequency of = your choice. The upper frequency is typically fairly low; I don't think mine= reaches 400 Hz but then again it cost me less than $100 for a unit that can = drive a 3 hp motor. That one takes either single or three phase (220 volt) i= nput; larger ones are normally specified as 3 phase only though chances are t= hey would in fact work if you fed them single phase power. >=20 > VFDs use IGBTs to create variable width square waves of about 400 V. These= can be turned into appropriate waveforms with a filter, but you sure don't w= ant to feed these directly into any kind of computer power supply directly. >=20 > Jon Yes, I've heard that. But why? Power supplies of that era start with a tran= sformer, which acts as a low pass filter, and after the rectifier there's ano= ther filter. Sure you can turn the PWM waveform into sines, but I can't see = that it matters much. paul --===============0313098995953134013==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 21:03:29 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 17:03:13 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5e21a259-ee12-4cc0-910a-c332f4058087@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5959605757146391154==" --===============5959605757146391154== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmm, I think the 40 years has expired, so I can tell the story of the MG=20 at NATO HQ... It had a two-ton flywheel, and a standby generator off a=20 side shaft that kicked in if commercial AC failed.=C2=A0 Problem was, the=20 building was wired with incorrect phase colouring, so when they=20 installed it all the motors went backwards!=C2=A0 U-Thant got in an elevator = for an upper floor and went down and hit the stops! On 2024-10-12 15:47, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/12/24 11:54, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > . >>> Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, possi= bly by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. >>> >>> Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple = KW range or did this in the past? > I recall that one of the benefits of using an MG set (probably better > referred to as a rotary converter, or motor-alternator set) is the > ability to float though short term power glitches. > > I remember summer employment at a drive-in movie theater during my > summers working as a projectionist. Power supply for the DC carbon arc > lamps was supplied by a 40 Hp MG set located in its own building. Such > things do generate a fair amount of noise. > > Does this date me? > > --Chuck > > --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============5959605757146391154==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Oct 12 21:25:51 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 21:25:44 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8219559986794490655==" --===============8219559986794490655== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Didn=E2=80=99t all the IBM mainframes use 400hz? Maybe ask the IBMers how the= y got 400hz. Also, can the local power company supply it? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 12, 2024, at 14:03, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHmm, I think the 40 years has expired, so I can tell the story of = the MG at NATO HQ... It had a two-ton flywheel, and a standby generator off a= side shaft that kicked in if commercial AC failed. Problem was, the buildin= g was wired with incorrect phase colouring, so when they installed it all the= motors went backwards! U-Thant got in an elevator for an upper floor and we= nt down and hit the stops! >=20 >=20 >> On 2024-10-12 15:47, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/12/24 11:54, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> . >>>> Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, poss= ibly by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. >>>>=20 >>>> Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple= KW range or did this in the past? >> I recall that one of the benefits of using an MG set (probably better >> referred to as a rotary converter, or motor-alternator set) is the >> ability to float though short term power glitches. >>=20 >> I remember summer employment at a drive-in movie theater during my >> summers working as a projectionist. Power supply for the DC carbon arc >> lamps was supplied by a 40 Hp MG set located in its own building. Such >> things do generate a fair amount of noise. >>=20 >> Does this date me? >>=20 >> --Chuck >>=20 >>=20 > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 >=20 --===============8219559986794490655==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Oct 13 00:51:11 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 00:51:00 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <45b160e34e0da9dc3dcdc9f740ec4a83641d4099.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1431366295298006089==" --===============1431366295298006089== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/12/24 13:22, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > Like Felix Unger in The Odd Couple, did you wear your seat belt in the > drive-in theater? I ran the projectors--how the heck could I manage changeovers wearing a seat belt? --===============1431366295298006089==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Oct 13 01:07:53 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 20:07:44 -0500 Message-ID: <9fd996c5-cdfd-e6d6-fb3a-5a404739c189@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218164DC34EC0DDA2366BF68E47A2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5088080217992566183==" --===============5088080217992566183== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/12/24 16:25, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Didn=E2=80=99t all the IBM mainframes use 400hz? Maybe ask the IBMers how t= hey got 400hz. > Also, can the local power company supply it? > The IBM 370/145 definitely used 400 Hz internally, there was=20 a 60 Hz 3-phase to 400 Hz 3-phase motor-alternator in the=20 back of the power cabinet. I know that larger installations had massive 400 Hz UPS's=20 that also did the conversion from 60 Hz to 400 Hz. I can't imagine any local power utility would want to supply=20 400 Hz power. Jon --===============5088080217992566183==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Oct 13 01:40:56 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 20:40:48 -0500 Message-ID: <4115ee43-c620-455c-bdae-0efa1e9291e0@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <9fd996c5-cdfd-e6d6-fb3a-5a404739c189@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3152233186243216649==" --===============3152233186243216649== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/12/24 20:07, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/12/24 16:25, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Didn’t all the IBM mainframes use 400hz? Maybe ask the >> IBMers how they got 400hz. >> Also, can the local power company supply it? >> Oh, the IBM 7090 series had a 400 Hz motor generator.  The mid-range IBM 360's (360/50 and 360/65) has "converter-inverters".  There was a star rectifier that took in 208 V 3-phase and converted it to DC with an inductor-input filter at about 300 V DC.  This was then fed to an inductor-input resonant inverter with fast SCRs at 2.5 KHz.  All the power supplies for logic, memory, etc. ran off 120 V single-phase 2.5 KHz power.  This kept the transformers and filter caps and inductors very small.  The inverter SCRs were commutated by two smaller SCRs that momentarily shorted the main SCRs through oil-paper caps. The problem with this system is it didn't offer much ride-through capability if you had crummy power quality. Jon --===============3152233186243216649==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 13 03:26:29 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 21:26:19 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4115ee43-c620-455c-bdae-0efa1e9291e0@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4242165961244157138==" --===============4242165961244157138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-10-12 7:40 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/12/24 20:07, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/12/24 16:25, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>> Didn’t all the IBM mainframes use 400hz? Maybe ask the IBMers how >>> they got 400hz. >>> Also, can the local power company supply it? >>> > Oh, the IBM 7090 series had a 400 Hz motor generator.  The mid-range IBM > 360's (360/50 and 360/65) has "converter-inverters".  There was a star > rectifier that took in 208 V 3-phase and converted it to DC with an > inductor-input filter at about 300 V DC.  This was then fed to an > inductor-input resonant inverter with fast SCRs at 2.5 KHz.  All the > power supplies for logic, memory, etc. ran off 120 V single-phase 2.5 > KHz power.  This kept the transformers and filter caps and inductors > very small.  The inverter SCRs were commutated by two smaller SCRs that > momentarily shorted the main SCRs through oil-paper caps. > > The problem with this system is it didn't offer much ride-through > capability if you had crummy power quality. > > Jon > What did they use for air conditioning? --===============4242165961244157138==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:03:06 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Emails with photos attached to this list Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:02:48 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4904795535467739415==" --===============4904795535467739415== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Will emails with embedded/attached photos send to this list published or drop= ped? Andreas --===============4904795535467739415==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:29:59 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:29:19 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6799637087940250785==" --===============6799637087940250785== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Water cooled > Am 13.10.2024 um 11:15 schrieb ben via cctalk : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2024-10-12 7:40 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> On 10/12/24 20:07, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> On 10/12/24 16:25, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>>> Didn=E2=80=99t all the IBM mainframes use 400hz? Maybe ask the IBMers ho= w they got 400hz. >>>> Also, can the local power company supply it? >>>>=20 >> Oh, the IBM 7090 series had a 400 Hz motor generator. The mid-range IBM 3= 60's (360/50 and 360/65) has "converter-inverters". There was a star rectifi= er that took in 208 V 3-phase and converted it to DC with an inductor-input f= ilter at about 300 V DC. This was then fed to an inductor-input resonant inv= erter with fast SCRs at 2.5 KHz. All the power supplies for logic, memory, e= tc. ran off 120 V single-phase 2.5 KHz power. This kept the transformers and= filter caps and inductors very small. The inverter SCRs were commutated by = two smaller SCRs that momentarily shorted the main SCRs through oil-paper cap= s. >> The problem with this system is it didn't offer much ride-through capabili= ty if you had crummy power quality. >> Jon > What did they use for air conditioning? >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============6799637087940250785==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Oct 13 15:05:47 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 10:05:39 -0500 Message-ID: <81abb4ba-34c9-4849-d237-a4d8d7d3c5fe@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4271292239204864457==" --===============4271292239204864457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/12/24 22:26, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-10-12 7:40 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/12/24 20:07, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> On 10/12/24 16:25, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>>> Didn’t all the IBM mainframes use 400hz? Maybe ask the >>>> IBMers how they got 400hz. >>>> Also, can the local power company supply it? >>>> >> Oh, the IBM 7090 series had a 400 Hz motor generator.  >> The mid-range IBM 360's (360/50 and 360/65) has >> "converter-inverters".  There was a star rectifier that >> took in 208 V 3-phase and converted it to DC with an >> inductor-input filter at about 300 V DC.  This was then >> fed to an inductor-input resonant inverter with fast SCRs >> at 2.5 KHz.  All the power supplies for logic, memory, >> etc. ran off 120 V single-phase 2.5 KHz power.  This kept >> the transformers and filter caps and inductors very >> small.  The inverter SCRs were commutated by two smaller >> SCRs that momentarily shorted the main SCRs through >> oil-paper caps. >> >> The problem with this system is it didn't offer much >> ride-through capability if you had crummy power quality. >> >> Jon >> > What did they use for air conditioning? All 360's except the model /85 were air-cooled.  The model /85 was water cooled, and was essentially a prototype of the 370/165. I can't answer for all installations, but our old computer center had a huge AC unit in the basement that blew cooled air under the raised floor. Jon --===============4271292239204864457==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 15:40:40 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Emails with photos attached to this list Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 08:39:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9200604358153733493==" --===============9200604358153733493== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 8:10 AM hupfadekroua via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Will emails with embedded/attached photos send to this list published or > dropped? > > Andreas Dropped. Sellam --===============9200604358153733493==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 15:52:38 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Emails with photos attached to this list Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 10:52:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2077892746225592596==" --===============2077892746225592596== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can test, but iirc the message comes through, just no attachments? On Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 3:10 AM hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: > Will emails with embedded/attached photos send to this list published or > dropped? > > Andreas --===============2077892746225592596==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Oct 13 23:48:18 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 16:48:13 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6824692853579029500==" --===============6824692853579029500== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1945 - 2024 Found dead 10/11/24 in a "wellness check". Little or no other information yet. Ward Christensen created the first "BBS". Then, when he needed to transfer files, he created XMODEM. The XMODEM protocols became the de facto standard for transferring files. Later, there was some competition from Kermit, but, other than being "FROM A UNIVERSITY!", it wasn't nearly as good. Not only are all of the greats dying off, but soon there won't be anybody around who even knew about them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6824692853579029500==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Mon Oct 14 01:03:21 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 18:03:14 -0700 Message-ID: <89e72bc3-fb8a-43d1-b1d8-c6fc6e15fb13@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9147361682086176879==" --===============9147361682086176879== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > 1945 - 2024 > Found dead 10/11/24 in a "wellness check". > Little or no other information yet. I was trying to find an obit for this. His Wikipedia entry is updated, but as of a couple hours ago had no citation for his date of death. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar --------------= -- --===============9147361682086176879==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Mon Oct 14 01:11:05 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 21:10:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1627043360833624095==" --===============1627043360833624095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm afraid time abides no one! It seems that the greats were of an earlier time, no pun intended, but they were pioneers who made technology work for them.Happy computing. Murray =F0=9F=99=82 On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 9:05=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > 1945 - 2024 > > Found dead 10/11/24 in a "wellness check". > > Little or no other information yet. > > Ward Christensen created the first "BBS". > Then, when he needed to transfer files, he created XMODEM. The XMODEM > protocols became the de facto standard for transferring files. > Later, there was some competition from Kermit, but, other than being "FROM > A > UNIVERSITY!", it wasn't nearly as good. > > > Not only are all of the greats dying off, but soon there won't be anybody > around who even knew about them. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============1627043360833624095==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Oct 14 01:20:38 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 18:20:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1883123961560864377==" --===============1883123961560864377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your book should probably have a chapter on the age of BBS's With thorough mention of Ward Christensen -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I'm afraid time abides no one! It seems that the greats were of an earlier > time, no pun intended, but they were pioneers who made technology work for > them.Happy computing. Murray =F0=9F=99=82 > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 9:05=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> 1945 - 2024 >> >> Found dead 10/11/24 in a "wellness check". >> >> Little or no other information yet. >> >> Ward Christensen created the first "BBS". >> Then, when he needed to transfer files, he created XMODEM. The XMODEM >> protocols became the de facto standard for transferring files. >> Later, there was some competition from Kermit, but, other than being "FROM >> A >> UNIVERSITY!", it wasn't nearly as good. >> >> >> Not only are all of the greats dying off, but soon there won't be anybody >> around who even knew about them. >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1883123961560864377==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon Oct 14 03:40:44 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 22:40:27 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1724885107164109917==" --===============1724885107164109917== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sad indeed, and thanks for letting the group know. I had the honor of meeting with Ward last year at VCF. I was so excited in meeting with him, I forgot to ask and get a proper photo with him. But he did sign my Computer Lib book that I had with me - I bring it with me to VCFs just for that purpose, of a chance encounter with one of the living legends. I found a candid image later. He was helping teach soldering at the tables setup at VCF, very enjoyable to talk with him (I ran a BBS for about 5 years right around 1990, and never-ever imagined that I'd meet the guy who started it all). I wrote about my encounter with him here: https://voidstar.blog/vcf-mw-midwest-2023/ Maybe VCF West and the great CHM might consider a kind of computing "hall of fame". It may be hard to decide who meets that threshold, but one criteria might be that of being humble enough to attend a VCF. If anyone is involved with Commander X16, we're in need of an xmodem implementation for one of the terminals in that system. I think we could pull it off in BASIC even. -Steve On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 8:20 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm afraid time abides no one! It seems that the greats were of an earlier > time, no pun intended, but they were pioneers who made technology work for > them.Happy computing. Murray 🙂 > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 9:05 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > 1945 - 2024 > > > > Found dead 10/11/24 in a "wellness check". > > > > Little or no other information yet. > > > > Ward Christensen created the first "BBS". > > Then, when he needed to transfer files, he created XMODEM. The XMODEM > > protocols became the de facto standard for transferring files. > > Later, there was some competition from Kermit, but, other than being > "FROM > > A > > UNIVERSITY!", it wasn't nearly as good. > > > > > > Not only are all of the greats dying off, but soon there won't be anybody > > around who even knew about them. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > > --===============1724885107164109917==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Mon Oct 14 05:34:55 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 00:34:45 -0500 Message-ID: <2126956594.603906.1728884085903@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5429816418985961494==" --===============5429816418985961494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will rename my PMMI 600 bps modem after him. Are there documentation of messages on his board? I have logs on 5.25" flop= py disks of all my sessions after I got a computer, and printed out. Gettig = the floppies read could be a challenge. Has recovering them become more impo= rtant? Have others saved and made available examples of the chatter on his b= oard? --===============5429816418985961494==-- From donald@donaldwhittemore.com Mon Oct 14 16:52:08 2024 From: "donald donaldwhittemore.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 23:59:37 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1654246662524574428==" --===============1654246662524574428== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know the name. As I am sure many of us old timers do. 3 years older than me. --===============1654246662524574428==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Mon Oct 14 16:53:53 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 06:32:20 +0000 Message-ID: <4118F6F4-4457-47D0-A0D3-81A2FCC9C462@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6D38D586-3850-4A76-9992-04A15FCE954F@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8290963204270750486==" --===============8290963204270750486== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They substituted the original psus of their ki10 > Am 12.10.2024 um 23:50 schrieb Brent Hilpert via cctalk : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2024Oct 12,, at 4:51 AM, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a Cyber= 180/860a. > ... >> Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, possib= ly by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. >>=20 >> Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple K= W range or did this in the past? >=20 >=20 > If I recall, the late LCM did this (swapped out the original supply modules= and put in modern switching supplies) for one of their large machines. (Agai= n, IIRC) there were pictures on the website of the new supplies installed in = the cabinets. > I kinda think it was the CDC 6500, but was perhaps one of the DEC -10's. >=20 > Of course, you can=E2=80=99t just contact contact the LCM anymore. > Was it Rich Alderson from, or formerly, on the list who used to work at LCM? >=20 --===============8290963204270750486==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon Oct 14 17:53:17 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 13:53:01 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0945809998120220698==" --===============0945809998120220698== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you get the chance, go to youtube to watch the Jason Scott documentary on the BBS. There is a lot of good history including Ward Christensen interviews. He is the co-inventor of the BBS not the sole inventor IIRC. Bill On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 1:00 PM donald donaldwhittemore.com via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I know the name. As I am sure many of us old timers do. > > 3 years older than me. > --===============0945809998120220698==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Oct 14 18:12:08 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 13:11:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3101863375183375532==" --===============3101863375183375532== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ward Christensen and Randy Seuss are the co-inventors of the BBS. Ward is the sole inventor of the X-Modem download protocol. On 10/14/2024 12:53 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > If you get the chance, go to youtube to watch the Jason Scott documentary > on the BBS. There is a lot of good history including Ward Christensen > interviews. He is the co-inventor of the BBS not the sole inventor IIRC. > Bill > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 1:00 PM donald donaldwhittemore.com via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I know the name. As I am sure many of us old timers do. >> >> 3 years older than me. >> --===============3101863375183375532==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Mon Oct 14 21:14:50 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 21:06:21 +0000 Message-ID: <4yXYdVEAp0P9JUmCTWNy8aj6F_W9otb3FDU6RjRp0VVT-hQbZqxaTKpTpR6ihutQ8_lva_GjgoipL59m3dSHIWkfrrgPgzyzFI1_8UChVuw=@virtadpt.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8793424846702376488==" --===============8793424846702376488== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, October 13th, 2024 at 16:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Not only are all of the greats dying off, but soon there won't be anybody > around who even knew about them. Some of us younger folks remember him. BBSes and Xmodem got me through high = school in the 90's. He's been added to my GNU-Clacks-Overhead header, for whatever that might be = worth. The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============8793424846702376488==-- From ethan@757.org Mon Oct 14 21:39:05 2024 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 17:38:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C4yXYdVEAp0P9JUmCTWNy8aj6F=5FW9otb3FDU6RjRp0VVT-hQb?= =?utf-8?q?ZqxaTKpTpR6ihutQ8=5Flva=5FGjgoipL59m3dSHIWkfrrgPgzyzFI1=5F8UChVuw?= =?utf-8?q?=3D=40virtadpt=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9209493008945487241==" --===============9209493008945487241== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Not only are all of the greats dying off, but soon there won't be anybody >> around who even knew about them. > > Some of us younger folks remember him. BBSes and Xmodem got me through hig= h school in the > 90's. I remmeber using X-Modem to download a term program that had Z-Modem, so I=20 didn't have to type in filenames and could batch stuff. Plus auto-start.=20 I think I started with Procom (yuck) then moved to Telix and QModem. I do=20 remember Telemate as well. Still to this day, I'll never forget when I caught a BBS user of mine=20 using Leech-Zmodem. The existence of Leech-Zmodem still cracks me up,=20 pretty smart. I kicked that Leech-Zmodem user off my BBS. A number of years later he=20 became a room mate and then co-worker. (Leech-Zmodem would tell the BBS side that there was a CRC error on the=20 line on the last blocks and back up the position, then cancel the transfer=20 so the transfer was "unsuccessful" to the BBS software and didn't hurt=20 upload/download ratios. But it captured the complete file.) - Ethan --===============9209493008945487241==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Oct 14 21:56:14 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 14:56:07 -0700 Message-ID: <03de01db1e83$e0775e70$a1661b50$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8822212423499641811==" --===============8822212423499641811== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I remmeber using X-Modem to download a term program that had Z-Modem, > so I > didn't have to type in filenames and could batch stuff. Plus auto- > start. > I think I started with Procom (yuck) then moved to Telix and QModem. I > do > remember Telemate as well. When Z-modem started being built in the comm programs it was a game changer. Before then you had to use the DSZ external program and setup variables to get Z-Modem. Man I miss those days. Tons of innovation everywhere and it seemed like every other month there was a new term program or protocol (C-Modem, J-Modem, N-Modem... I was waiting for them to run out of letters). The next big game changer was HS-Link. Bi directional transfer, efficient, and you could chat. Too bad the author lost the source code to the program and it was never took off like it could have. -Ali --===============8822212423499641811==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Oct 14 22:10:24 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 15:10:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <03de01db1e83$e0775e70$a1661b50$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3591285995699179962==" --===============3591285995699179962== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote: > (C-Modem, J-Modem, N-Modem... I was waiting for them to run out of letters). Washington, DC had a solution to that exact problem: "Once the alphabet to Y is exhausted, the street names are double syllable=20 words from A to Y followed by triple syllable words A to Y followed by the=20 names of trees and flowers. Sometimes, this system is referred to as the=20 first, second, third, and fourth alphabets." https://badercondominium.org/Bader_Streets.html#:~:text=3DOnce%20the%20alphab= et%20to%20Y,%2C%20third%2C%20and%20fourth%20alphabets. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3591285995699179962==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Oct 14 23:22:20 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 16:22:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8942066848699639001==" --===============8942066848699639001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote: > (C-Modem, J-Modem, N-Modem... I was waiting for them to run out of > letters). Speaking of alphabetic order, . . . 35 years ago, I was interviewed for a puff piece in the comdex daily "news". Among other amateur stupid questions, I was asked "Do you want FAME?" I replied, "Well, someday, I'd like to be recognized a little, and maybe even listed along with Ward Christensen." The very next year, the attendee roster of a conference I went to listed: ... Christensen, Ward Cisin, Fred Cisler, Steve ... That is much preferable to being listed with him in the subject line of this thread -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8942066848699639001==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Oct 14 23:43:38 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 16:43:32 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5079410e-2b8d-498c-b2f0-0082767431c2@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3285386135570537218==" --===============3285386135570537218== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > Does anyone have any information about visitation or a wake or funeral? I was unable to find any information using Google. Nothing about cause of death, memorial services, etc. If you find any information, please share. --===============3285386135570537218==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue Oct 15 00:00:43 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 18:31:37 -0500 Message-ID: <5079410e-2b8d-498c-b2f0-0082767431c2@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5111255008184472742==" --===============5111255008184472742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone have any information about visitation or a wake or funeral? On 10/14/2024 6:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> (C-Modem, J-Modem, N-Modem... I was waiting for them to run out of >> letters). > > > Speaking of alphabetic order, . . . > > 35 years ago, I was interviewed for a puff piece in the comdex daily > "news". > Among other amateur stupid questions, I was asked "Do you want FAME?" > I replied, "Well, someday, I'd like to be recognized a little, and > maybe even listed along with Ward Christensen." > > The very next year, the attendee roster of a conference I went to listed: > ... > Christensen, Ward > Cisin, Fred > Cisler, Steve > ... > > That is much preferable to being listed with him in the subject line > of this thread > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5111255008184472742==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Oct 15 00:03:31 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 00:03:17 +0000 Message-ID: <582d8652-5df3-43ff-9c4f-13be6c48c9b6@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0060564444575794259==" --===============0060564444575794259== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/14/24 14:38, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > (Leech-Zmodem would tell the BBS side that there was a CRC error on the > line on the last blocks and back up the position, then cancel the > transfer so the transfer was "unsuccessful" to the BBS software and > didn't hurt upload/download ratios. But it captured the complete file.) Heck, last year I coded a version of Ymodem for an embedded application. It's pretty easy when all you have is a serial connection. --Chuck --===============0060564444575794259==-- From evanlinwood@hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 00:14:39 2024 From: Evan Linwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Passing of Edson (Ed) De Castro, Founder of Data General Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 00:14:33 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7179164374326538482==" --===============7179164374326538482== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was surprised to find out this morning that it seems Ed De Castro has passe= d on September 6 this year. I can't see any reference to this in cctalk, so I'll try to give a short summ= ary of Ed's accomplishments. Many here would know that Ed worked for DEC and was project manager in charge= of developing the PDP-8. He left DEC to found DG in the late 60's and was the original designer of the= ir Nova system, introduced to the marketplace when he was 29. Ed was obviously a highly talented engineer, but it was the founding of DG th= at I would imagine was his most outstanding accomplishment. DG wasn't the first disruptive new entrant in the computing marketplace in th= at period, or the largest for example with DEC and HP preceding them. In order to stand out, DG used every trick in the marketing/advertising book = that they could think of. It seems that DG may have been the first disruptive tech startup to also disp= lay a very high level of cheeky confidence as being central to their brand. I get the impression that DG staff took up this spirit and ran with it, at ti= mes even faster than management might have liked them to. DG also sounds like a company that required high performance - everyone there= knew what the expectations were. Somehow a generally quiet, matter of fact engineer like Ed created a 'pirate = ship' that people absolutely thrived in. Perhaps it could even be said that DG were the template, in terms of culture,= for what we imagine tech startups to be striving for even today. There are numerous videos on YouTube that give a sense of this, including reg= arding the Talking Propeller Heads, the inhouse DG rock/comedy band. Looking also at early Apple advertisements, for example, I was struck persona= lly with the similarity in tone and style to DG's advertisements. This quote from http://www.teamfoster.com/billteamfostercom sums up the compa= ny well: "The company was a puzzle. It broke all the rules and yet was extremely succ= essful. It had the reputation of being the "bad boy" of the computer industr= y -- heck, of any industry. And it enjoyed this reputation. DG became a pub= lic company less than two years after it was founded and shattered records in= making it to the Fortune 500. Too bad Harvard never wrote a case study. It= would have been groundbreaking! But if they did Harvard would have had to a= dmit that EVERYTHING they taught about how to run a business could be wrong= =E2=80=A6" Also this quote from https://www.ithistory.org/honor-roll/mr-edson-ed-de-cast= ro: "Steve Wozniak, Apple's future co-founder, (in high school at the time) was s= aid to be enchanted with the Nova's elegantly designed architecture, and had = photos of the machine taped on his bedroom wall." And of course most of us know of Tracy Kidder's Pulitzer prize-winning book, = The Soul of a New Machine. These are just some short thoughts from someone who never worked at DG. Hopefully some others here with deeper experience can comment also. Vale Ed De Castro --===============7179164374326538482==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 00:20:47 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 20:20:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5079410e-2b8d-498c-b2f0-0082767431c2@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2126249293187226868==" --===============2126249293187226868== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I regret not doing a section on the BBS in my book. I read today(Thanksgiving in Canada and certainly giving thanks to Christensen) that he and Suess created the CBBS in 1978. Christensen created the Xmodem a year earlier. Both enabled computers to communicate with each other. Christensen through humility, his openness to sharing, left us a legacy that some in today's computer world should best emulate. May the computer Gods forever care for Mr. Christensen.. Happy computing, Murray =F0=9F=99=82 On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 8:10=E2=80=AFPM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have any information about visitation or a wake or funeral? > > > On 10/14/2024 6:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote: > >> (C-Modem, J-Modem, N-Modem... I was waiting for them to run out of > >> letters). > > > > > > Speaking of alphabetic order, . . . > > > > 35 years ago, I was interviewed for a puff piece in the comdex daily > > "news". > > Among other amateur stupid questions, I was asked "Do you want FAME?" > > I replied, "Well, someday, I'd like to be recognized a little, and > > maybe even listed along with Ward Christensen." > > > > The very next year, the attendee roster of a conference I went to listed: > > ... > > Christensen, Ward > > Cisin, Fred > > Cisler, Steve > > ... > > > > That is much preferable to being listed with him in the subject line > > of this thread > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > --===============2126249293187226868==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 05:31:54 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 00:31:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <68f27c4d-a610-4cf5-80a7-341039d01828@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5229110506978473185==" --===============5229110506978473185== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Thomas, Do you happen to have also the original SHARP MS-DOS 2.00 disks? It may have come with the CE-510F. All my bubble cartridges have MS-DOS 2.00, and one of the cartridges has SYS.COM. So... I did a FORMAT /8 on another x86 system and formatted a 320KB disks. Then I put that disk into the PC-5000, then did a SYS C: from the bubble cartridge that has SYS.COM, and it said "System transferred" (and CHKDSK.COM agrees, there are 2 hidden files). I added COMMAND.COM to the disk, but it (the PC-5000) still won't boot from that disk. I turn the system off, remove the bubble cartridge, power on the system with this "new" 320KB disk inserted... and it says WARNING: NON-SYSTEM DISK. So we'll be hunting for an original SHARP PC-5000 boot disk still. -Steve On Sun, Sep 8, 2024 at 4:09 AM osi.superboard via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sharp computers from the early 80's were truly amazing. Every computer > part they produced was a joy to see and feel because of its accuracy and > design. If you've ever held a Sharp CE-152 data tape device, you know > what I mean. > > Fortunately, I have a CE-510F with an internal power supply and floppy > disk controller. > If you're interested, please drop me a PM. > Thomas > > On 07.09.2024 09:17, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > A while back I started studying more about the Sharp PC-5000 (and had it > up > > and running at VCFSW in 2023). I'm now coming back to that project, and > > one thing I was never able to find was a compatible 5.25 disk drive. > > > > I've collected some information about this system at here: > > https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000/ > > > > And I am hoping to put together a video about out. But one challenging > > aspect is that its LCD screen is difficult to record (lots of > > reflections). And despite having lots of schematic documentation now, > I'm > > still not savvy enough to try to export its screen content to an external > > device that might have a backlight. > > > > From my notes, as I recall.... The 37-pin connector at the back of the > > PC-5000 is not the same as the 37-pin connector at the back of the IO > card > > with the original IBM PC 5150. I believe the Sharp product model > number > > I am looking for CE-510F (which might be the same as MZ-80B in certain > > markets). > > > > This isn't an urgent thing - the Bubble Memory modules of this PC-5000 > are > > still all working fine and make the system functional. But I do have a > set > > of disk with the system that might be interesting to try out. So just > > broadcasting here, on the off-chance someone might be familiar with these > > and know of a stash of accessories (most likely within a > Japanese-speaking > > community, where I think Sharp products were generally more popular). > > > > Thanks! > > Steve v* > --===============5229110506978473185==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 06:06:26 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 11:35:22 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4749559212734500188==" --===============4749559212734500188== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Once I visited LCM some years ago I was allowed to visit their repair laborat= ory. I was introduced to an approach to substitute DEC BA11 PSU modules by modern= DC-DC converter modules. They used a 3D printed plastic chassis to mount the converter, electrolytic a= s well as the connectors to be fitted into the psu chassis of a BA11 enclosur= e, quite nice. See photo attached =E2=80=A6 Does someone knows if this stl or design has been saved while or after LCMs c= losure? Best Andreas --===============4749559212734500188==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Tue Oct 15 06:51:59 2024 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 08:51:44 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1584138447251289294==" --===============1584138447251289294== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, your photos didn't show up here - better put them to another place and send the link to the group. hupfadekroua via cctalk schrieb am Di., 15. Okt. 2024, 08:06: > Hi all, > > Once I visited LCM some years ago I was allowed to visit their repair > laboratory. > > I was introduced to an approach to substitute DEC BA11 PSU modules by > modern DC-DC converter modules. > > They used a 3D printed plastic chassis to mount the converter, > electrolytic as well as the connectors to be fitted into the psu chassis of > a BA11 enclosure, quite nice. > > See photo attached … > > Does someone knows if this stl or design has been saved while or after > LCMs closure? > > Best > > Andreas --===============1584138447251289294==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 07:26:19 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Convex and CDC items on ebay.de Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 10:26:02 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1348680578404643927==" --===============1348680578404643927== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, there are some Convex and CDC items on ebay.de Best --===============1348680578404643927==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 11:54:07 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Passing of Edson (Ed) De Castro, Founder of Data General Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 12:53:50 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDS7PR11MB61525383EB8D3A0BFB7C9DE8AB452=40DS7PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6152=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3459230485911239377==" --===============3459230485911239377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 at 01:14, Evan Linwood via cctalk wrote: > And of course most of us know of Tracy Kidder's Pulitzer prize-winning book= , The Soul of a New Machine. Oh, my, of course yes. This is sad news. I wonder if I can talk my editor into a belated obit? I feel too ignorant though... --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3459230485911239377==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 13:12:05 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 16:11:47 +0300 Message-ID: <96065F3D-C745-4835-93EE-0B8FF6B90929@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6015454160062486872==" --===============6015454160062486872== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Next try =E2=80=A6 https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjBMV48 A. > Am 15.10.2024 um 15:28 schrieb Milo Velimirovi=C4=87 : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThe photos didn=E2=80=99t make it through. I=E2=80=99ve got a pdp1= 1/05 that I=E2=80=99d like to restore and new PSUs make total sense to me. Pl= ease send photos directly. >=20 > Thanks! > =E2=80=94Milo >=20 >> On Oct 12, 2024, at 6:35=E2=80=AFAM, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> Hi all, >>=20 >> Once I visited LCM some years ago I was allowed to visit their repair labo= ratory. >>=20 >> I was introduced to an approach to substitute DEC BA11 PSU modules by mod= ern DC-DC converter modules. >>=20 >> They used a 3D printed plastic chassis to mount the converter, electrolyti= c as well as the connectors to be fitted into the psu chassis of a BA11 enclo= sure, quite nice. >>=20 >> See photo attached =E2=80=A6 >>=20 >> Does someone knows if this stl or design has been saved while or after LCM= s closure? >>=20 >> Best >>=20 >> Andreas >=20 --===============6015454160062486872==-- From milovelimirovic@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 13:51:07 2024 From: Milo =?utf-8?q?Velimirovi=C4=87?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 08:50:52 -0500 Message-ID: <837F8ECD-E142-418F-B875-1A8507A1F76C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <96065F3D-C745-4835-93EE-0B8FF6B90929@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6161914932648912686==" --===============6161914932648912686== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any thoughts on wiring harnesses and connectors to mate to DEC backplanes? Thanks! =E2=80=94Milo > On Oct 15, 2024, at 8:11=E2=80=AFAM, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Next try =E2=80=A6 >=20 > https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjBMV48 >=20 >=20 > A. >=20 >> Am 15.10.2024 um 15:28 schrieb Milo Velimirovi=C4=87 : >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFThe photos didn=E2=80=99t make it through. I=E2=80=99ve got a pdp= 11/05 that I=E2=80=99d like to restore and new PSUs make total sense to me. P= lease send photos directly. >>=20 >> Thanks! >> =E2=80=94Milo >>=20 >>> On Oct 12, 2024, at 6:35=E2=80=AFAM, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi all, >>>=20 >>> Once I visited LCM some years ago I was allowed to visit their repair lab= oratory. >>>=20 >>> I was introduced to an approach to substitute DEC BA11 PSU modules by mo= dern DC-DC converter modules. >>>=20 >>> They used a 3D printed plastic chassis to mount the converter, electrolyt= ic as well as the connectors to be fitted into the psu chassis of a BA11 encl= osure, quite nice. >>>=20 >>> See photo attached =E2=80=A6 >>>=20 >>> Does someone knows if this stl or design has been saved while or after LC= Ms closure? >>>=20 >>> Best >>>=20 >>> Andreas >>=20 --===============6161914932648912686==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 16:19:44 2024 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 12:19:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <96065F3D-C745-4835-93EE-0B8FF6B90929@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7923289035816269266==" --===============7923289035816269266== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great fix! I'd like to suggest that anyone distributing 3D models for 3D printing, please include a STEP file. STLs are mesh based (at least that's how they load into Fusion 360) and by default you can't align objects to them or perform other standard operations. I include STEP, STL and F3D (Fusion source) file formats in all my posts on Thingiverse, Printables, etc. because my goal is to let people modify them as they need. =3D] -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 9:20=E2=80=AFAM hupfadekroua via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Next try =E2=80=A6 > > https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjBMV48 > > > A. > > > Am 15.10.2024 um 15:28 schrieb Milo Velimirovi=C4=87 < > milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com>: > > > > =EF=BB=BFThe photos didn=E2=80=99t make it through. I=E2=80=99ve got a pd= p11/05 that I=E2=80=99d like to > restore and new PSUs make total sense to me. Please send photos directly. > > > > Thanks! > > =E2=80=94Milo > > > >> On Oct 12, 2024, at 6:35=E2=80=AFAM, hupfadekroua via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Once I visited LCM some years ago I was allowed to visit their repair > laboratory. > >> > >> I was introduced to an approach to substitute DEC BA11 PSU modules by > modern DC-DC converter modules. > >> > >> They used a 3D printed plastic chassis to mount the converter, > electrolytic as well as the connectors to be fitted into the psu chassis of > a BA11 enclosure, quite nice. > >> > >> See photo attached =E2=80=A6 > >> > >> Does someone knows if this stl or design has been saved while or after > LCMs closure? > >> > >> Best > >> > >> Andreas > > > --===============7923289035816269266==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Tue Oct 15 16:23:15 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 16:23:00 +0000 Message-ID: <7k3n4fKgIkxlUK8L-Zd__FaC7Gvve65oKeHgKYBrveURo3CdkHmsZpnrnTgZilXuFNfKFbxc_OWpRbnHwLMeqGEruobdStB6U7eDk_voaoM=@virtadpt.net> In-Reply-To: <582d8652-5df3-43ff-9c4f-13be6c48c9b6@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9183933649830702561==" --===============9183933649830702561== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, October 14th, 2024 at 17:03, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > (Leech-Zmodem would tell the BBS side that there was a CRC error on the > > line on the last blocks and back up the position, then cancel the > > transfer so the transfer was "unsuccessful" to the BBS software and > > didn't hurt upload/download ratios. But it captured the complete file.) So /that's/ what Leech-Zmodem was. I knew it was banned on just about every board in my NPA, and asking about it (or getting caught using it) was a banna= ble offense. Cute. > Heck, last year I coded a version of Ymodem for an embedded application. > It's pretty easy when all you have is a serial connection. I keep copies of the Xmodem and Kermit protocol specs in my wiki in case I need them again. Working in airgapped environments means that sometimes you don't have the right tool for the job. The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============9183933649830702561==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 16:40:16 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 09:39:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4406261644954605369==" --===============4406261644954605369== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 4:22=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > (C-Modem, J-Modem, N-Modem... I was waiting for them to run out of > > letters). > > > Speaking of alphabetic order, . . . > > 35 years ago, I was interviewed for a puff piece in the comdex daily > "news". > Among other amateur stupid questions, I was asked "Do you want FAME?" > I replied, "Well, someday, I'd like to be recognized a little, and > maybe even listed along with Ward Christensen." > > The very next year, the attendee roster of a conference I went to listed: > ... > Christensen, Ward > Cisin, Fred > Cisler, Steve > ... > > That is much preferable to being listed with him in the subject > line of this thread > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com Fred, you are an absolute gem. Sellam --===============4406261644954605369==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 16:47:48 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 09:46:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1793693007094271781==" --===============1793693007094271781== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think it's worth noting that Ward's body wasn't found until apparently a couple days after he passed. People had been trying to contact him with no reply forthcoming, and it wasn't until a couple days later when someone finally went to check on him that they discovered him dead. A lot of us are old, some getting older. Just a suggestion: check on your older friends often and make sure you follow up if you don't hear from them. Sellam --===============1793693007094271781==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 16:50:21 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 09:49:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3207264136841785283==" --===============3207264136841785283== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:35 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Maybe VCF West and the great CHM might consider a kind of computing "hall > of fame". It may be hard to decide who meets that threshold, but one > criteria might be that of being humble enough to attend a VCF. > CHM has its "Fellows" ==> https://computerhistory.org/hall-of-fellows/ Sellam --===============3207264136841785283==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 17:22:25 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 20:22:06 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7540157011835989940==" --===============7540157011835989940== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For the substitution of the H732 psus of their KI10 Cabinets LCM used execsys xlc devices. A quite interesting since configurable approach, but not cheap. On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 7:19=E2=80=AFPM Anders Nelson wrote: > Great fix! > > I'd like to suggest that anyone distributing 3D models for 3D printing, > please include a STEP file. STLs are mesh based (at least that's how they > load into Fusion 360) and by default you can't align objects to them or > perform other standard operations. I include STEP, STL and F3D (Fusion > source) file formats in all my posts on Thingiverse, Printables, etc. > because my goal is to let people modify them as they need. > > =3D] > -- > Anders Nelson > www.andersknelson.com > > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 9:20=E2=80=AFAM hupfadekroua via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Next try =E2=80=A6 >> >> https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjBMV48 >> >> >> A. >> >> > Am 15.10.2024 um 15:28 schrieb Milo Velimirovi=C4=87 < >> milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com>: >> > >> > =EF=BB=BFThe photos didn=E2=80=99t make it through. I=E2=80=99ve got a p= dp11/05 that I=E2=80=99d like >> to restore and new PSUs make total sense to me. Please send photos directl= y. >> > >> > Thanks! >> > =E2=80=94Milo >> > >> >> On Oct 12, 2024, at 6:35=E2=80=AFAM, hupfadekroua via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> Once I visited LCM some years ago I was allowed to visit their repair >> laboratory. >> >> >> >> I was introduced to an approach to substitute DEC BA11 PSU modules by >> modern DC-DC converter modules. >> >> >> >> They used a 3D printed plastic chassis to mount the converter, >> electrolytic as well as the connectors to be fitted into the psu chassis of >> a BA11 enclosure, quite nice. >> >> >> >> See photo attached =E2=80=A6 >> >> >> >> Does someone knows if this stl or design has been saved while or after >> LCMs closure? >> >> >> >> Best >> >> >> >> Andreas >> > >> > --===============7540157011835989940==-- From ljw-cctech@ljw.me.uk Tue Oct 15 18:48:40 2024 From: Lawrence Wilkinson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Emails with photos attached to this list Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 20:23:34 +0200 Message-ID: <55f5556a-bee3-4ed9-9f96-d56c1a54d79b@ljw.me.uk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8377603233564438307==" --===============8377603233564438307== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 13/10/24 10:02, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: > Will emails with embedded/attached photos send to this list published or dr= opped? > > Andreas Andreas, sorry for the delay - your messages were sitting in the=20 moderation queue along with a zillion spams. I am glad you found a=20 solution. --=20 Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 --===============8377603233564438307==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 20:08:18 2024 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 16:08:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6935537728532199048==" --===============6935537728532199048== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 12:25 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I'd like to suggest that anyone distributing 3D models for 3D printing, > please include a STEP file. STLs are mesh based (at least that's how they > load into Fusion 360) and by default you can't align objects to them or > perform other standard operations. I include STEP, STL and F3D (Fusion > source) file formats in all my posts on Thingiverse, Printables, etc. > because my goal is to let people modify them as they need. If you are using a tool that generates STEP files that sounds great but I do all of my design in OpenSCAD so you get STLs from me. Any STEP files would have to come out of a converter. I do recommend if you use OpenSCAD, please publish the source files with the STL. -ethan --===============6935537728532199048==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Oct 15 20:36:28 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 16:36:20 -0400 Message-ID: <3364815D-80B7-4ED5-9576-49F186760843@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6894112104354162492==" --===============6894112104354162492== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 15, 2024, at 4:08 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 12:25=E2=80=AFPM Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: >> I'd like to suggest that anyone distributing 3D models for 3D printing, >> please include a STEP file. STLs are mesh based (at least that's how they >> load into Fusion 360) and by default you can't align objects to them or >> perform other standard operations. I include STEP, STL and F3D (Fusion >> source) file formats in all my posts on Thingiverse, Printables, etc. >> because my goal is to let people modify them as they need. >=20 > If you are using a tool that generates STEP files that sounds great > but I do all of my design in OpenSCAD so you get STLs from me. Any > STEP files would have to come out of a converter. >=20 > I do recommend if you use OpenSCAD, please publish the source files > with the STL. >=20 > -ethan "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from" - A= ndrew Tanenbaum. That applies in spades to 3d model files; I've been amazed at the number of f= ormats FreeCAD3d knows about and tries to import (mostly quite poorly). paul --===============6894112104354162492==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 15 21:16:26 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 14:16:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3364815D-80B7-4ED5-9576-49F186760843@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7543868867547542511==" --===============7543868867547542511== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from" -= Andrew Tanenbaum. George Morrow said,=20 "I believe in standards. Everyone should have one." About 45 years ago, he and Howard Fullmer tried to standardize the=20 S100 bus. There seemed to have been as little written about Howard's death as the=20 void around Ward christensen's death. --===============7543868867547542511==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 21:46:44 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 14:45:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8339410607116853071==" --===============8339410607116853071== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 2:25=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose > from" - Andrew Tanenbaum. > > George Morrow said, > "I believe in standards. Everyone should have one." > > About 45 years ago, he and Howard Fullmer tried to standardize the > S100 bus. > > There seemed to have been as little written about Howard's death as the > void around Ward christensen's death. > Understandable, considering he eventually turned his back on the industry and never looked back. Sellam --===============8339410607116853071==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 15 21:54:40 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 14:54:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4443666362478067650==" --===============4443666362478067650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> George Morrow said, >> "I believe in standards. Everyone should have one." >> >> About 45 years ago, he and Howard Fullmer tried to standardize the >> S100 bus. >> >> There seemed to have been as little written about Howard's death as the >> void around Ward christensen's death. On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Understandable, considering he eventually turned his back on the industry > and never looked back. BTW, THANK YOU for getting George's widow to relinquish the rights to "Quotations Of Chairman Morrow" , so that it is available to all. --===============4443666362478067650==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 15 23:16:58 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 16:16:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6574896901575606423==" --===============6574896901575606423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is a little more information: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/10/ward-christensen-bbs-inventor-and-arc= hitect-of-our-online-age-dies-at-age-78/ still no cause of death ("probably natural causes"), memorial services,=20 relatives/loved ones left behind, etc. --===============6574896901575606423==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 00:26:52 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 00:26:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6682566567692742182==" --===============6682566567692742182== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When someone dies at home with no doctor present, an autopsy is always done a= nd it takes awhile. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 15, 2024, at 16:17, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHere is a little more information: > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/10/ward-christensen-bbs-inventor-and-a= rchitect-of-our-online-age-dies-at-age-78/ >=20 >=20 > still no cause of death ("probably natural causes"), memorial services, rel= atives/loved ones left behind, etc. --===============6682566567692742182==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 16 00:44:38 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 17:44:31 -0700 Message-ID: <04c501db1f64$91289c30$b379d490$@net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218193044F6B27DACBC5D284E4462=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0906657376265038887==" --===============0906657376265038887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When someone dies at home with no doctor present, an autopsy is always > done and it takes awhile. Since when? -Ali --===============0906657376265038887==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 01:54:23 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 01:54:16 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04c501db1f64$91289c30$b379d490$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3229946684732228322==" --===============3229946684732228322== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Don’t know when it started, but at least 30 years. Cause of death is a must. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 15, 2024, at 17:44, Ali wrote: > >  >> >> When someone dies at home with no doctor present, an autopsy is always >> done and it takes awhile. > > Since when? > > -Ali > --===============3229946684732228322==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 16 02:45:05 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 19:44:55 -0700 Message-ID: <04da01db1f75$63153310$293f9930$@net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181101745C4C6B9B6AB2AD3E4462=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8748815204457970616==" --===============8748815204457970616== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Don=E2=80=99t know when it started, but at least 30 years. > Cause of death is a must. What does that even mean: "Cause of death is a must"? Are you referring to a cause of death being listed on the death certificate? = Then yes, a cause needs to be written. However, that does not require an auto= psy in significant majority of cases.=20 Again I am not sure where you are coming up with 100% autopsy requirement? He= ck, even cases where the law requires referral to the coroner it is entirely = in the purview of the coroner if they wish to take the case and subsequently = do an autopsy. Autopsies are expensive and very time consuming. Nobody is doi= ng any unnecessary autopsies for free. -Ali --===============8748815204457970616==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 03:01:10 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 03:01:01 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04da01db1f75$63153310$293f9930$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8025274421509209483==" --===============8025274421509209483== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When my mom died, at home , at age 99, the ambulance people said that an auto= psy has to be performed when someone dies at home. The police also came and s= aid the same thing. When my mother-in-law passed, in the hospital, no autopsy needed to be done. = I did not ask specifics in either case. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 15, 2024, at 19:44, Ali wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> Don=E2=80=99t know when it started, but at least 30 years. >> Cause of death is a must. >=20 > What does that even mean: "Cause of death is a must"? >=20 > Are you referring to a cause of death being listed on the death certificate= ? Then yes, a cause needs to be written. However, that does not require an au= topsy in significant majority of cases. >=20 > Again I am not sure where you are coming up with 100% autopsy requirement? = Heck, even cases where the law requires referral to the coroner it is entirel= y in the purview of the coroner if they wish to take the case and subsequentl= y do an autopsy. Autopsies are expensive and very time consuming. Nobody is d= oing any unnecessary autopsies for free. >=20 > -Ali >=20 --===============8025274421509209483==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 16 03:06:58 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 20:06:49 -0700 Message-ID: <04db01db1f78$71e68170$55b38450$@net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181F03A4BF0365E79765087E4462=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4983040625727563930==" --===============4983040625727563930== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > When my mom died, at home , at age 99, the ambulance people said that > an autopsy has to be performed when someone dies at home. The police > also came and said the same thing. > When my mother-in-law passed, in the hospital, no autopsy needed to be > done. > I did not ask specifics in either case. Was an autopsy actually done? Did they contact you with a report/result? I ca= n almost guarantee that a 99 y.o. passing in her home will not warrant an aut= opsy short of some other horrible thing happening at the same time e.g. arson= ist set the house on fire and now the DA wants to link the death to the arson= to add a murder charge.=20 -Ali --===============4983040625727563930==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 16 03:13:17 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 20:13:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04db01db1f78$71e68170$55b38450$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4446722330112819115==" --===============4446722330112819115== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> When my mom died, at home , at age 99, the ambulance people said that >> an autopsy has to be performed when someone dies at home. The police >> also came and said the same thing. >> When my mother-in-law passed, in the hospital, no autopsy needed to be >> done. >> I did not ask specifics in either case. On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Was an autopsy actually done? Did they contact you with a report/result? I = can almost guarantee that a 99 y.o. passing in her home will not warrant an a= utopsy short of some other horrible thing happening at the same time e.g. ars= onist set the house on fire and now the DA wants to link the death to the ars= on to add a murder charge. Are there differences in different areas? Is "autopsy has to be performed" a city, county, state, or federal mandate? Ward Christensen died in Rolling Meadows, IL What are the rules THERE? --===============4446722330112819115==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 03:28:33 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 03:28:25 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6356726437673897075==" --===============6356726437673897075== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As for my Mom, she had a heart attack, heart stopped , paramedics got it rest= arted but she passed before she could even be loaded into the ambulance. It= took about 7 minutes from call to ambulance arriving. The death certificate = said she died of a heart attack, which she was on medication for. I don=E2=80= =99t think a full autopsy was performed, just a toxicology. They can tell so= me things from just tox and blood tests. Another oddity, is that when you sell your house, at least here in California= , there is a check box on the realtor form asking if someone died in the hous= e. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 15, 2024, at 20:13, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>> When my mom died, at home , at age 99, the ambulance people said that >>> an autopsy has to be performed when someone dies at home. The police >>> also came and said the same thing. >>> When my mother-in-law passed, in the hospital, no autopsy needed to be >>> done. >>> I did not ask specifics in either case. >=20 >> On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> Was an autopsy actually done? Did they contact you with a report/result? I= can almost guarantee that a 99 y.o. passing in her home will not warrant an = autopsy short of some other horrible thing happening at the same time e.g. ar= sonist set the house on fire and now the DA wants to link the death to the ar= son to add a murder charge. >=20 > Are there differences in different areas? > Is "autopsy has to be performed" a city, county, state, or federal mandate? >=20 >=20 > Ward Christensen died in Rolling Meadows, IL > What are the rules THERE? >=20 --===============6356726437673897075==-- From kirkbdavis@me.com Wed Oct 16 04:37:50 2024 From: Kirk Davis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 21:30:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181DE5735E47EF368557BD2E4462=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1489579769066427712==" --===============1489579769066427712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also, a clandestine drug lab needs to be disclosed (another fun fact). Sent from my iPad > On Oct 15, 2024, at 8:28=E2=80=AFPM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAs for my Mom, she had a heart attack, heart stopped , paramedics = got it restarted but she passed before she could even be loaded into the amb= ulance. It took about 7 minutes from call to ambulance arriving. The death c= ertificate said she died of a heart attack, which she was on medication for. = I don=E2=80=99t think a full autopsy was performed, just a toxicology. They = can tell some things from just tox and blood tests. >=20 > Another oddity, is that when you sell your house, at least here in Californ= ia, there is a check box on the realtor form asking if someone died in the ho= use. >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Oct 15, 2024, at 20:13, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>>=20 >>>> When my mom died, at home , at age 99, the ambulance people said that >>>> an autopsy has to be performed when someone dies at home. The police >>>> also came and said the same thing. >>>> When my mother-in-law passed, in the hospital, no autopsy needed to be >>>> done. >>>> I did not ask specifics in either case. >>=20 >>>> On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>> Was an autopsy actually done? Did they contact you with a report/result? = I can almost guarantee that a 99 y.o. passing in her home will not warrant an= autopsy short of some other horrible thing happening at the same time e.g. a= rsonist set the house on fire and now the DA wants to link the death to the a= rson to add a murder charge. >>=20 >> Are there differences in different areas? >> Is "autopsy has to be performed" a city, county, state, or federal mandate? >>=20 >>=20 >> Ward Christensen died in Rolling Meadows, IL >> What are the rules THERE? >>=20 --===============1489579769066427712==-- From evanlinwood@hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 05:42:49 2024 From: Evan Linwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Passing of Edson (Ed) De Castro, Founder of Data General Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 05:42:41 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0362573538002144686==" --===============0362573538002144686== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Oh, my, of course yes. > This is sad news. I wonder if I can talk my editor into a belated > obit? I feel too ignorant though... I guess you could try I'm a nobody but De Castro was important First person (I think) to put a whole CPU on a single card, at least in a mas= s-produced machine --===============0362573538002144686==-- From bluewater@emailtoilet.com Wed Oct 16 06:36:56 2024 From: "bluewater emailtoilet.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 17:14:07 +0000 Message-ID: <0ADF05C4-FB54-4780-8FFA-3E3578DD73B0@emailtoilet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2663133835061798763==" --===============2663133835061798763== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ward was 3 years older than me. I email someone every morning with an email t= hat is titled Up. No deep discourse. Just a sentence saying what I plan to do= that day. They either send or reply to me with the same. If we have not hea= rd from each other by 11:00 we try text. If that does not work we contact the= ir local police and ask for a welfare check. I also send a daily meme to anot= her person. I may ask if they care to get in on the scheme. There are paid services that basically do the same thing. > On Oct 15, 2024, at 09:48, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI think it's worth noting that Ward's body wasn't found until appa= rently a > couple days after he passed. People had been trying to contact him with no > reply forthcoming, and it wasn't until a couple days later when someone > finally went to check on him that they discovered him dead. >=20 > A lot of us are old, some getting older. Just a suggestion: check on your > older friends often and make sure you follow up if you don't hear from them. >=20 > Sellam --===============2663133835061798763==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Wed Oct 16 06:50:14 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] CDC Documentation and Manuals Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 09:49:58 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6699337479755339588==" --===============6699337479755339588== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I do see a lot of CDC documentation on bitsavers like software, hardware concepts, programming concepts, but no logic diagrams, schematics, detailed assembly etc. Didn't publish CDC logic diagrams, schematic, board layouts etc, esp. of course for the 180/8xx series in the past - wasn't such kind of docs ever available? A. --===============6699337479755339588==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Oct 16 07:03:33 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 09:03:21 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4099809959352554707==" --===============4099809959352554707== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 12:25?PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: >> I'd like to suggest that anyone distributing 3D models for 3D printing, >> please include a STEP file. STLs are mesh based (at least that's how they > If you are using a tool that generates STEP files that sounds great > but I do all of my design in OpenSCAD so you get STLs from me. Any > STEP files would have to come out of a converter. > I do recommend if you use OpenSCAD, please publish the source files > with the STL. This is what I wanted to write, too. I don't know STEP files, and while I can import STL files into the slicer, I can't modify them, just position and scale. So yes, *if* someone publishes 3D models e.g. on Thingiverse, _include_ then sources! OpenSCAD is a great tool. Christian --===============4099809959352554707==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Wed Oct 16 10:07:07 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] CHM Visit in May 2018 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 13:06:50 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1163500300400974739==" --===============1163500300400974739== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I'd like to share the photographs I took during my CHM visit in May 2018. https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjBNeWY Andreas --===============1163500300400974739==-- From hupfadekroua@gmail.com Wed Oct 16 10:10:34 2024 From: hupfadekroua To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 13:10:17 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3073082212046756635==" --===============3073082212046756635== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe there are someone on this list, formerly employed at or involved in CHM who saved the STL or design files of this chassis substitute? Andreas On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 2:35=E2=80=AFPM hupfadekroua wrote: > Hi all, > > Once I visited LCM some years ago I was allowed to visit their repair > laboratory. > > I was introduced to an approach to substitute DEC BA11 PSU modules by > modern DC-DC converter modules. > > They used a 3D printed plastic chassis to mount the converter, > electrolytic as well as the connectors to be fitted into the psu chassis of > a BA11 enclosure, quite nice. > > See photo attached =E2=80=A6 > > Does someone knows if this stl or design has been saved while or after > LCMs closure? > > Best > > Andreas --===============3073082212046756635==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Wed Oct 16 13:05:46 2024 From: Donald Whittemore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] CHM and CMOA Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 13:05:40 +0000 Message-ID: <172908394034.4006402.6820818348789697605@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1078528041238983025==" --===============1078528041238983025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have 30 minutes and a decent size screen. 2009 and 2014 slide shows. http://www.myimagecollection.com/CHM2009/index.html http://www.myimagecollection.com/CHM2014/index.html And what I sold to CMOA in 2019. They arranged for a 26=E2=80=99 truck to pic= k it all up. :) http://www.myimagecollection.com/cmoa/ And if you are interested in punchcards, my collection. https://www.ibmjunkman.com/ --===============1078528041238983025==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:55:38 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 06:55:21 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8418799053081786191==" --===============8418799053081786191== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Oct 15, 2024, 3:00 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > BTW, THANK YOU for getting George's widow to relinquish the rights to > "Quotations Of Chairman Morrow" , so that it is available to all. > When did I do this? BTW, I recently came across the copy that I borrowed from Michael Swaine (from which I transcribed the book into a file many years ago) which I somehow failed to return way back when. The book is now back in his hands and he's doing well from what he tells me. Sellam > --===============8418799053081786191==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Oct 16 13:58:24 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 08:58:14 -0500 Message-ID: <876621607.670452.1729087094821@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6700314326175257640==" --===============6700314326175257640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable when my brother died at home, in bed, with his wife, in evanston so same stat= e different city, an autopsy had to be performed. What if a relative came ba= ck 5 months later and claimed the wife killed him? what if a home intruder k= illed the person, including by feeding carbon monoxide into the building or s= omething even less obvious? besides possible criminal behavior, there is inh= eritance issues. Or if he died from eating bad food, somebody to be sued by = heirs. the hospital is excluded because the doctor's statement is sufficient. 
--Carey
> On 10/15/2024 10:13 PM CDT Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > >> When my mom died, at home , at age 99, the ambulance people said that > >> an autopsy has to be performed when someone dies at home. The police > >> also came and said the same thing. > >> When my mother-in-law passed, in the hospital, no autopsy needed to be > >> done. > >> I did not ask specifics in either case. >=20 > On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Was an autopsy actually done? Did they contact you with a report/result? = I can almost guarantee that a 99 y.o. passing in her home will not warrant an= autopsy short of some other horrible thing happening at the same time e.g. a= rsonist set the house on fire and now the DA wants to link the death to the a= rson to add a murder charge. >=20 > Are there differences in different areas? > Is "autopsy has to be performed" a city, county, state, or federal mandate? >=20 >=20 > Ward Christensen died in Rolling Meadows, IL > What are the rules THERE? --===============6700314326175257640==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 16 17:51:02 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 10:50:55 -0700 Message-ID: <053501db1ff3$f42c75b0$dc856110$@net> In-Reply-To: <876621607.670452.1729087094821@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2322781787929619689==" --===============2322781787929619689== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > when my brother died at home, in bed, with his wife, in evanston so > same state different city, an autopsy had to be performed. What if a > relative came back 5 months later and claimed the wife killed him? > what if a home intruder killed the person, including by feeding carbon > monoxide into the building or something even less obvious? besides > possible criminal behavior, there is inheritance issues. Or if he died > from eating bad food, somebody to be sued by heirs. the hospital is > excluded because the doctor's statement is sufficient. Straight from the horse's mouth: https://www.cookcountyil.gov/content/medical-examiner-frequently-asked-questi= ons "What types of death are investigated by the Medical Examiner? In general, those deaths suspected to be homicides, suicides, accidents or su= dden unexpected natural deaths are investigated by the Medical Examiner=E2=80= =99s Office." "Will an autopsy always be performed? No. An autopsy is performed at the Medical Examiner=E2=80=99s discretion base= d on all of the information available at the time of examination. An autopsy = may not be required when the death is known to be the result of natural cause= s, adequate medical history exists and there are no signs of foul play. Autop= sies are required when there is evidence or reasonable suspicion of foul play= ." -Ali --===============2322781787929619689==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 16 17:51:06 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 10:50:55 -0700 Message-ID: <053601db1ff3$f46204a0$dd260de0$@net> In-Reply-To: <0ADF05C4-FB54-4780-8FFA-3E3578DD73B0@emailtoilet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1101957745333819926==" --===============1101957745333819926== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Ward was 3 years older than me. I email someone every morning with an > email that is titled Up. No deep discourse. Just a sentence saying what > I plan to do that day. They either send or reply to me with the same. > If we have not heard from each other by 11:00 we try text. If that does > not work we contact their local police and ask for a welfare check. I > also send a daily meme to another person. I may ask if they care to get > in on the scheme. That is really smart. More people should do this if they have the resources/c= apacity for it. >=20 > There are paid services that basically do the same thing. Wow, are you located in the USA? You hear about these types of things but alw= ays in Japan (e.g. grandchildren for hire or the other way around grandparent= s for hire) but I didn't think we had any in the USA. -Ali --===============1101957745333819926==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 16 17:51:13 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 10:50:56 -0700 Message-ID: <053901db1ff3$f51c2ce0$df5486a0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4883237507721289091==" --===============4883237507721289091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Are there differences in different areas? > Is "autopsy has to be performed" a city, county, state, or federal > mandate? Fred, There are no Federal mandates regarding autopsy. However, each state has its own criteria but generally the criteria are for referral to a coroner who then determines if an autopsy is warranted. So to give a concrete example in CA any deaths that occur within 24 hours of a patient having surgery is automatically a coroner's case. What this means is the hospital calls the coroner and gives them the circumstances of the death. The coroner then can choose to take the patient for further investigation or release the body to go to a funeral home/family/etc. Having, unfortunately had family members pass in a home not witnessed I can also tell you that there are no mandatory autopsies. -Ali --===============4883237507721289091==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 16 17:51:18 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 10:50:56 -0700 Message-ID: <053801db1ff3$f4e9d240$debd76c0$@net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181DE5735E47EF368557BD2E4462=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4081581894220955318==" --===============4081581894220955318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > As for my Mom, she had a heart attack, heart stopped , paramedics got > it restarted but she passed before she could even be loaded into the > ambulance. It took about 7 minutes from call to ambulance arriving. > The death certificate said she died of a heart attack, which she was on > medication for. I don=E2=80=99t think a full autopsy was performed, just a > toxicology. They can tell some things from just tox and blood tests. I would be surprised if they even did a toxicology. The manner of death was p= retty clear. The receiving physician would have declared her DOA either on ar= rival over the phone and the manner of death would be recorded as such. >=20 > Another oddity, is that when you sell your house, at least here in > California, there is a check box on the realtor form asking if someone > died in the house. This is accurate. It is mostly aimed at people who died in a violent crime bu= t of course applies to everyone. I think it stems from a case where someone w= as killed in their home, the home was sold, and the perpetrators came back no= t knowing the home was sold and then attacked the new owners by mistake. But = don't quote me on that. -Ali --===============4081581894220955318==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 16 17:51:24 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 10:50:56 -0700 Message-ID: <053701db1ff3$f4a3efa0$ddebcee0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7030705995438347288==" --===============7030705995438347288== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Also, a clandestine drug lab needs to be disclosed (another fun fact). > That kind of defeats the purpose of it being clandestine, no? ;) -Ali --===============7030705995438347288==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Oct 16 19:50:21 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 12:49:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <053801db1ff3$f4e9d240$debd76c0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4104119839796823267==" --===============4104119839796823267== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Unholy hell, no one cares about how or when or why an autopsy is performed. Put it to rest. On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 11:00 AM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > As for my Mom, she had a heart attack, heart stopped , paramedics got > > it restarted but she passed before she could even be loaded into the > > ambulance. It took about 7 minutes from call to ambulance arriving. > > The death certificate said she died of a heart attack, which she was on > > medication for. I don’t think a full autopsy was performed, just a > > toxicology. They can tell some things from just tox and blood tests. > > I would be surprised if they even did a toxicology. The manner of death > was pretty clear. The receiving physician would have declared her DOA > either on arrival over the phone and the manner of death would be recorded > as such. > > > > > Another oddity, is that when you sell your house, at least here in > > California, there is a check box on the realtor form asking if someone > > died in the house. > > > This is accurate. It is mostly aimed at people who died in a violent crime > but of course applies to everyone. I think it stems from a case where > someone was killed in their home, the home was sold, and the perpetrators > came back not knowing the home was sold and then attacked the new owners by > mistake. But don't quote me on that. > > -Ali > > > --===============4104119839796823267==-- From Michael@jongleur.co.uk Wed Oct 16 21:30:53 2024 From: Michael Mulhern To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM STL Files for 3D Printing of DEC PSU Chassis Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 08:30:35 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4608884020246181269==" --===============4608884020246181269== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I’ve needed to modify STL files so I import them into TinkerCAD, an online basic CAD environment, then export the STL out for printing. //m On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 at 6:03 pm, Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 12:25?PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > > wrote: > >> I'd like to suggest that anyone distributing 3D models for 3D printing, > >> please include a STEP file. STLs are mesh based (at least that's how > they > > If you are using a tool that generates STEP files that sounds great > > but I do all of my design in OpenSCAD so you get STLs from me. Any > > STEP files would have to come out of a converter. > > I do recommend if you use OpenSCAD, please publish the source files > > with the STL. > > This is what I wanted to write, too. > I don't know STEP files, and while I can import STL files into the slicer, > I can't modify them, just position and scale. > > So yes, *if* someone publishes 3D models e.g. on Thingiverse, _include_ > then sources! OpenSCAD is a great tool. > > Christian > --===============4608884020246181269==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Thu Oct 17 03:56:23 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 23:56:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2234948494395539678==" --===============2234948494395539678== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What OS are you using to format the disk? If you have a DOS system running (or can run DOS from a USB drive) you might try FORMAT /S and whatever other options you need; make sure the system files are in the DOS directory. AFAIK you can also use WIN98 or earlier. On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 1:31 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Thomas, > Do you happen to have also the original SHARP MS-DOS 2.00 disks? It may > have come with the CE-510F. > > All my bubble cartridges have MS-DOS 2.00, and one of the cartridges has > SYS.COM. So... I did a FORMAT /8 on another x86 system and formatted a > 320KB disks. Then I put that disk into the PC-5000, then did a SYS C: from > the bubble cartridge that has SYS.COM, and it said "System transferred" > (and CHKDSK.COM agrees, there are 2 hidden files). I added COMMAND.COM to > the disk, but it (the PC-5000) still won't boot from that disk. I turn > the system off, remove the bubble cartridge, power on the system with this > "new" 320KB disk inserted... and it says WARNING: NON-SYSTEM DISK. > > So we'll be hunting for an original SHARP PC-5000 boot disk still. > > > -Steve > > > On Sun, Sep 8, 2024 at 4:09 AM osi.superboard via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Sharp computers from the early 80's were truly amazing. Every computer > > part they produced was a joy to see and feel because of its accuracy and > > design. If you've ever held a Sharp CE-152 data tape device, you know > > what I mean. > > > > Fortunately, I have a CE-510F with an internal power supply and floppy > > disk controller. > > If you're interested, please drop me a PM. > > Thomas > > > > On 07.09.2024 09:17, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > A while back I started studying more about the Sharp PC-5000 (and had > it > > up > > > and running at VCFSW in 2023). I'm now coming back to that project, > and > > > one thing I was never able to find was a compatible 5.25 disk drive. > > > > > > I've collected some information about this system at here: > > > https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000/ > > > > > > And I am hoping to put together a video about out. But one challenging > > > aspect is that its LCD screen is difficult to record (lots of > > > reflections). And despite having lots of schematic documentation now, > > I'm > > > still not savvy enough to try to export its screen content to an > external > > > device that might have a backlight. > > > > > > From my notes, as I recall.... The 37-pin connector at the back of > the > > > PC-5000 is not the same as the 37-pin connector at the back of the IO > > card > > > with the original IBM PC 5150. I believe the Sharp product model > > number > > > I am looking for CE-510F (which might be the same as MZ-80B in certain > > > markets). > > > > > > This isn't an urgent thing - the Bubble Memory modules of this PC-5000 > > are > > > still all working fine and make the system functional. But I do have a > > set > > > of disk with the system that might be interesting to try out. So > just > > > broadcasting here, on the off-chance someone might be familiar with > these > > > and know of a stash of accessories (most likely within a > > Japanese-speaking > > > community, where I think Sharp products were generally more popular). > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Steve v* > > > --===============2234948494395539678==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Oct 17 07:06:05 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 02:05:47 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7219239110464752533==" --===============7219239110464752533== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With help, I'm trying a combination of versions. It's an "odd duck" of a system - I've seen claims it has MS-DOS 1.25 built into ROM. But the bubble cartridges are all booting to MS-DOS 2.00. Each cartridge also has BASIC.COM (which just examining that COM, all it does is kick off running BASICEXE.EXE - which a .BAT could have done that). That BASICEXE.EXE is ~61KB, so it's a full GW-BASIC right there. And if so, then why does one need the BASIC ROM module inserted at the bottom of the system? (rhetorical question, I'll experiment more on it over the next weekend on how functional the system is with that ROM card removed) We tried an MS-DOS 2.11 (Sharp image), but to be bootable even the manual states that the bubble cartridges use 8 sectors per track instead of the more typical 9. So the system can read either one (320 or 360), but it may only boot to a 320 (TBD). Which leads to another odd thing: the bubble cartridges are advertised as 128KB storage, but in doing a DIR and CHKDSK, those are reporting file content of over 300KB on some of these bubble cartridges. So I'm not sure if the sales team went to press before coordinating with the engineering team? ;) We did try /S on an MS-DOS 3.30 and tried booting that, but the PC-5000 said NON-SYSTEM DISK. But we're not yet sure if that's because it was a 9 sector per track instead of 8. Another thing is, the bubble memory cartridges CHKDSK is saying 6 hidden files instead of the normal 2. I'll look into that more also next weekend (attrib.exe didn't work for me on that system, but have a couple other options to try). Another thing I just realized - if IMD.COM can run on DOS 2.0, and has command line options (because a text-mode "GUI" of IMD won't work on the 8 row screen of the PC-5000), then I wonder if IMD could be used to image the 320KB bubble memory cartridges. Will also try that next weekend, now that I know I have a way to copy things to floppy (and the luxury of two disk drives, so can run IMD and dump the image on the other drive) For anyone interested, I'm keeping notes about the PC-5000 here: Sharp PC-5000 — voidstar https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000/ -Steve On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 10:56 PM Mike Stein wrote: > What OS are you using to format the disk? > > If you have a DOS system running (or can run DOS from a USB drive) you > might try FORMAT /S and whatever other options you need; make sure the > system files are in the DOS directory. AFAIK you can also use WIN98 or > earlier. > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 1:31 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi Thomas, >> Do you happen to have also the original SHARP MS-DOS 2.00 disks? It may >> have come with the CE-510F. >> >> All my bubble cartridges have MS-DOS 2.00, and one of the cartridges has >> SYS.COM. So... I did a FORMAT /8 on another x86 system and formatted a >> 320KB disks. Then I put that disk into the PC-5000, then did a SYS C: >> from >> the bubble cartridge that has SYS.COM, and it said "System transferred" >> (and CHKDSK.COM agrees, there are 2 hidden files). I added COMMAND.COM >> to >> the disk, but it (the PC-5000) still won't boot from that disk. I turn >> the system off, remove the bubble cartridge, power on the system with this >> "new" 320KB disk inserted... and it says WARNING: NON-SYSTEM DISK. >> >> So we'll be hunting for an original SHARP PC-5000 boot disk still. >> >> >> -Steve >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 8, 2024 at 4:09 AM osi.superboard via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > Sharp computers from the early 80's were truly amazing. Every computer >> > part they produced was a joy to see and feel because of its accuracy and >> > design. If you've ever held a Sharp CE-152 data tape device, you know >> > what I mean. >> > >> > Fortunately, I have a CE-510F with an internal power supply and floppy >> > disk controller. >> > If you're interested, please drop me a PM. >> > Thomas >> > >> > On 07.09.2024 09:17, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >> > > A while back I started studying more about the Sharp PC-5000 (and had >> it >> > up >> > > and running at VCFSW in 2023). I'm now coming back to that project, >> and >> > > one thing I was never able to find was a compatible 5.25 disk drive. >> > > >> > > I've collected some information about this system at here: >> > > https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000/ >> > > >> > > And I am hoping to put together a video about out. But one >> challenging >> > > aspect is that its LCD screen is difficult to record (lots of >> > > reflections). And despite having lots of schematic documentation >> now, >> > I'm >> > > still not savvy enough to try to export its screen content to an >> external >> > > device that might have a backlight. >> > > >> > > From my notes, as I recall.... The 37-pin connector at the back of >> the >> > > PC-5000 is not the same as the 37-pin connector at the back of the IO >> > card >> > > with the original IBM PC 5150. I believe the Sharp product model >> > number >> > > I am looking for CE-510F (which might be the same as MZ-80B in certain >> > > markets). >> > > >> > > This isn't an urgent thing - the Bubble Memory modules of this PC-5000 >> > are >> > > still all working fine and make the system functional. But I do have >> a >> > set >> > > of disk with the system that might be interesting to try out. So >> just >> > > broadcasting here, on the off-chance someone might be familiar with >> these >> > > and know of a stash of accessories (most likely within a >> > Japanese-speaking >> > > community, where I think Sharp products were generally more popular). >> > > >> > > Thanks! >> > > Steve v* >> > >> > --===============7219239110464752533==-- From bluewater@emailtoilet.com Thu Oct 17 13:09:53 2024 From: "bluewater emailtoilet.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen (BBS, XMODEM) has died Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 02:08:21 +0000 Message-ID: <7067EAED-A9AE-4C9C-8B6F-4F9743AD5FAE@emailtoilet.com> In-Reply-To: <053601db1ff3$f46204a0$dd260de0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6423209588147283863==" --===============6423209588147283863== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://carecheckers.com/ https://www.seniorresource.com/daily-check-in-services-for-seniors-living-alo= ne/ On Oct 16, 2024, at 10:51, Ali via cctalk wrote: =EF=BB=BF Ward was 3 years older than me. I email someone every morning with an email that is titled Up. No deep discourse. Just a sentence saying what I plan to do that day. They either send or reply to me with the same. If we have not heard from each other by 11:00 we try text. If that does not work we contact their local police and ask for a welfare check. I also send a daily meme to another person. I may ask if they care to get in on the scheme. That is really smart. More people should do this if they have the resources/c= apacity for it. There are paid services that basically do the same thing. Wow, are you located in the USA? You hear about these types of things but alw= ays in Japan (e.g. grandchildren for hire or the other way around grandparent= s for hire) but I didn't think we had any in the USA. -Ali --===============6423209588147283863==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Oct 17 16:35:45 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 09:34:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0456690881272950411==" --===============0456690881272950411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 10:31 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > All my bubble cartridges have MS-DOS 2.00, and one of the cartridges has > SYS.COM. So... I did a FORMAT /8 on another x86 system and formatted a > 320KB disks. Then I put that disk into the PC-5000, then did a SYS C: from > the bubble cartridge that has SYS.COM, and it said "System transferred" > (and CHKDSK.COM agrees, there are 2 hidden files). I added COMMAND.COM to > the disk, but it (the PC-5000) still won't boot from that disk. I turn > the system off, remove the bubble cartridge, power on the system with this > "new" 320KB disk inserted... and it says WARNING: NON-SYSTEM DISK. > Is it possible to try formatting the disk from the Sharp PC-5000 itself? It's possible there's something special about the boot sector on the bubble carts. You might try reading the raw sectors off of it and examining the boot sector to see if it's doing something special to allow it to boot, then maybe copy that code into the boot sector on the floppy. Sellam --===============0456690881272950411==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Oct 17 21:00:00 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CDC Documentation and Manuals Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 16:59:28 -0400 Message-ID: <3448F75C-60AD-4CF7-825A-50D853A0955F@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5551072339684179760==" --===============5551072339684179760== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a lot there, look in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fiel= dEngr/ . Among othe= r things, you will find block diagrams (60119300), complete wire lists which = also show the schematics for every module ("chassis tabs") and the interconne= ct between the chassis ("cable tabs"). All these are for the 6600, which is = the most interesting of the bunch. Unfortunately it's not a matched set; for example the chassis 1 wire lists ar= e an early edition which predates the central exchange jump and ECS features,= and the same is true for some of the other ones. There are also a couple of "training manuals", where you can find interesting= things like a detailed description of how the core memory module is construc= ted.=20 There are also two versions of the DD60 (console display) reference manual, w= hich includes full schematics, module descriptions, and maintenance procedure= s. I'll admit I haven't looked for analogous documentation for the 170 or 180 se= ries. paul > On Oct 16, 2024, at 2:49 AM, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > I do see a lot of CDC documentation on bitsavers like software, hardware > concepts, programming concepts, but no logic diagrams, schematics, detailed > assembly etc. >=20 > Didn't publish CDC logic diagrams, schematic, board layouts etc, esp. of > course for the 180/8xx series in the past - wasn't such kind of docs ever > available? >=20 > A. --===============5551072339684179760==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 00:35:00 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 19:34:45 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1744866433635955765==" --===============1744866433635955765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, none of the bubble cartridges has a FORMAT.COM. There is MODE.COM, CHKDSK.COM, EDLIN.COM, and then SYS.COM . And trying to run FORMAT.COM from another DOS 3.30 on the PC-5000, it actually does try to run, but then says "Incorrect DOS version" We're trying another cut of the Sharp MS-DOS 2.11 image (the first one had some issues). It has a FORMAT.COM, so hopefully that will just work. If not, then maybe trying to extract an older FORMAT.COM from a DOS 1.X image might be worth a try? I'm not too savvy about boot sector stuff and DOS interrupts - maybe there is some DEBUG.COM stuff that can help probe boot sectors of these bubble cartridges? I'm not sure if I can borrow a DEBUG.COM from another DOS disks, will try that also over the weekend. -SteveL On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 12:00 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 10:31 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > All my bubble cartridges have MS-DOS 2.00, and one of the cartridges has > > SYS.COM. So... I did a FORMAT /8 on another x86 system and formatted a > > 320KB disks. Then I put that disk into the PC-5000, then did a SYS C: > from > > the bubble cartridge that has SYS.COM, and it said "System transferred" > > (and CHKDSK.COM agrees, there are 2 hidden files). I added COMMAND.COM > to > > the disk, but it (the PC-5000) still won't boot from that disk. I turn > > the system off, remove the bubble cartridge, power on the system with > this > > "new" 320KB disk inserted... and it says WARNING: NON-SYSTEM DISK. > > > > Is it possible to try formatting the disk from the Sharp PC-5000 itself? > > It's possible there's something special about the boot sector on the bubble > carts. You might try reading the raw sectors off of it and examining the > boot sector to see if it's doing something special to allow it to boot, > then maybe copy that code into the boot sector on the floppy. > > Sellam > --===============1744866433635955765==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Oct 18 01:43:25 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 18:43:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0042587692350075167==" --===============0042587692350075167== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Well, none of the bubble cartridges has a FORMAT.COM. There is MODE.COM, > CHKDSK.COM, EDLIN.COM, and then SYS.COM . > And trying to run FORMAT.COM from another DOS 3.30 on the PC-5000, it > actually does try to run, but then says "Incorrect DOS version" Try te VER command, to confirm whether what is running is 2.00 Back in 1982?, when PC-DOS 1.10/1.25 came out, with different disk format, there were problems. If you stuck one of those disks into a machine running PC-DOS 1.00, and ran CHKDSK, it would proceed to gladly "repair" problems with the disk rendering it unusable. (well, alot of tedious manual repair of the DIRectory needed) SO, MICROS~1 eventually changed CHKDSK, to not make repairs unless you had used the /F (fix) option, and explicitly asking you whether you wanted it to do the "repairs" (I had an interesting conversation with Jef Raskin about his view that "if a disk is unreadable, and therefore presumably blank, The computer should just go ahead anf FORMAT it") Then, they made another change. EVERY executable program included with DOS, before it runs would check the currently running DOS version, and refuse to run if it was the wrong DOS version running. NOT ALL programs had a problem with running under another version, but they had to be cautious.. That created problems with some executables, such as LINK and EXE2BIN that were acquired with one version of DOS, but were needed on other versions. The solution to THAT in DOS 5.00? was SETVER. Setver lets DOS lie about it's age! So, when you want to use DOS 2.00 LINK, you can use setver to tell DOS, "If LINK asks the DOS version, tell it 2.00", etc. Obviously you don't have SETVER, that came along later to solve that problem. SO, you need to do a mnor patch. You could seek out a copy of DOS 2.00 FORMAT. OR, since the differences do NOT matter, you can patch FORMAT to not care about which DOS version is running. It will be simplest if you use a relatively old verstion of FORMAT that is a .COM file, not a .EXE Unfortunately the filename won't work for determining that. (later versions of DOS, when progams became too bulky for tiny memory model, they used .EXE programs, but renamed them .COM! Fortunately, DOS 2.11 should be ideal. The sure way to tell whether itis REALLY .COM or .EXE is whether the first two bytes of te file are "MZ" (Mark Zbikowski!) ALL .EXE files have his initials as the first two bytes of the file, disunirregardless of whether the filename claims to be .COM or .EXE REAL .COM programs will NOT start with "MZ" Load it into DEBUG DEBUG FORMAT.COM (any version of DEBUG that works for you, on any computer) Use the U command ("UNassemble") find where it has MOV AH 30 Int 21 CMP AX, 1e03 or whatever. (3.30) If the next line is JNZ . . . or JNE ...,, replace that with NOPs, or a JMP to the next instruction after the JNZ If the line is JZ or JE, . . . repace that with JMP OR, change the CMP AX, 1E03 to CMP Ax, 0002 IFF VER reports 2.00 DOS stores the major version number internally as a number which function 30 returns in AL, and a minor version number whigh it stores as if it had been a 2 digit decimal number returned in AH Therefore, your 3.30 is not 3 - 3 It is 3 - THIRTY Yes, 3.30 thinks that its version THIRTY of DOS 3! By removing or bypassing the comparison of version number, it will now NEVER give "INCORRECT DIS VERSION" > > We're trying another cut of the Sharp MS-DOS 2.11 image (the first one had > some issues). It has a FORMAT.COM, so hopefully that > will just work. If not, then maybe trying to extract an older FORMAT.COM > from a DOS 1.X image might be worth a try? I'm not too savvy > about boot sector stuff and DOS interrupts - maybe there is some DEBUG.COM > stuff that can help probe boot sectors of these bubble cartridges? > I'm not sure if I can borrow a DEBUG.COM from another DOS disks, will try > that also over the weekend. DEBUG.COM will only run on the version of DOS that it shipped with unless you do the same patch. 'course how do you run DEBUG to patch DEBUG if it won't run until sfter you patch it? :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0042587692350075167==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Oct 18 01:53:58 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 18:53:54 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4638625514646229080==" --===============4638625514646229080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAKE SPARE COPIES OF FORMAT.COM, BEFORE YOU STEP ON IT! --===============4638625514646229080==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Oct 18 02:59:35 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 19:59:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1468257495770802663==" --===============1468257495770802663== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know your level of familiarity with DEBUG, assembly, etc. So, if you need more detail, then when I get a chance, I could write out more detailed instructions First step, is to confirm whether the DOS that is running is actually 2.00 If so, then we can work on making the DOS 2.11 FORMAT run under DOS 2.00 Be aware that 2.11 is an OEM version, and is sometimes heavily customized for specific hardware. Ideally, you will want the MODE.COM that is specific toyour hardware. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1468257495770802663==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Fri Oct 18 03:20:56 2024 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 21:20:38 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6114229614731794802==" --===============6114229614731794802== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The DEC Rainbow had an interesting boot loader. It knew the physical sectors of the io.sys and msdos.sys. so 2.0, 2.1 and 3.1 all were different since the file sizes were different. So version very much mattered. Also, hard disks had smarter loader, but not by much. So if this isn't 100% you may be down the habit hole needed the exact right disk for this machine... Warner On Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 8:59=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I don't know your level of familiarity with DEBUG, assembly, etc. > > So, if you need more detail, then when I get a chance, I could write out > more detailed instructions > > > First step, is to confirm whether the DOS that is running is actually 2.00 > > If so, then we can work on making the DOS 2.11 FORMAT run under DOS 2.00 > > Be aware that 2.11 is an OEM version, and is sometimes heavily customized > for specific hardware. Ideally, you will want the MODE.COM that is > specific toyour hardware. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============6114229614731794802==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 04:25:49 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 23:25:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8400687728515185523==" --===============8400687728515185523== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I follow all that (on the DEBUG.COM notes) and appreciate the notes - that will save some time, I look forward to trying a few things out tomorrow. I forgot to do VER explicitly, but on boot up it is saying MS-DOS 2.00. And just now, I recalled that on github there is MS-DOS source (and bins) - I think Dave's Garage, he recently did a video on building and booting MS-DOS 4.0 from that source. Maybe I should use this as an excuse to try a 2.0 build? Or least, reading through the FORMAT.ASM, I see all the DOSVER checking stuff - helps confirm patch addresses, or maybe try just recompiling that one utility without this check. Reading through the CONFIG.txt in the MS-DOS 2.0 github repo, it's interesting near the end: (the use of forward slash instead of backslash, ha! and just above this, the comments mention /dev/) "A typical configuration file might look like this: BUFFERS = 10 FILES = 10 DEVICE = /bin/network.sys BREAK = ON SWITCHAR = - SHELL = a:/bin/command.com a:/bin -p" -SteveL On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 10:05 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don't know your level of familiarity with DEBUG, assembly, etc. > > So, if you need more detail, then when I get a chance, I could write out > more detailed instructions > > > First step, is to confirm whether the DOS that is running is actually 2.00 > > If so, then we can work on making the DOS 2.11 FORMAT run under DOS 2.00 > > Be aware that 2.11 is an OEM version, and is sometimes heavily customized > for specific hardware. Ideally, you will want the MODE.COM that is > specific toyour hardware. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============8400687728515185523==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Oct 18 04:47:38 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 21:47:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1446981012604492216==" --===============1446981012604492216== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis wrote: > I follow all that (on the DEBUG.COM notes) and appreciate the notes - that > will save some time, I look forward to trying a few things out tomorrow. > > I forgot to do VER explicitly, but on boot up it is saying MS-DOS 2.00. > > And just now, I recalled that on github there is MS-DOS source (and bins) - > I think Dave's Garage, he recently did a video on building and booting > MS-DOS 4.0 from that source. Maybe I should use this as an excuse to try > a 2.0 build? Or least, reading through the FORMAT.ASM, I see all the > DOSVER checking stuff - helps confirm patch addresses, or maybe try just > recompiling that one utility without this check. > > > Reading through the CONFIG.txt in the MS-DOS 2.0 github repo, it's > interesting near the end: (the use of forward slash instead of backslash, > ha! and just above this, the comments mention /dev/) > > "A typical configuration file might look like this: > > BUFFERS = 10 > FILES = 10 > DEVICE = /bin/network.sys > BREAK = ON > SWITCHAR = - > SHELL = a:/bin/command.com a:/bin -p" GOOD So, you should be able to patch FORMAT 2.11 ti work on the DOS version that is running. BUT, whether Format /S or SYS will work remains to be seen. I have seen cases where the opening banner does not quite match the stored version number, such as 4.01 V 4.00 and a conditional jmp needs an exact match. So, definitely run VER and/or in debug A(Assemble) MOV AH,30 INT 21 INT 3 ; ends program and displays registers and see what it shows in AX (running that in CMD of my Windows 7 gives 0005 (5.00)!) One of the early homework assignments when I taught PC Assembly was to go into DEBUG and patch LINK.EXE and EXE2BIN.EXE to eliminate DOD version checking. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1446981012604492216==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 23:00:42 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 19:00:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9172201074404422331==" --===============9172201074404422331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to the group, I have acquired some boards and a backplane for a PDP 11/23+. The disk controller is an RQDX3 and I have a 3.5" drive that works as an RX50. I have a greazeweasle so I am able to write RX50 images to 3.5 inch floppies. I also have an RD32 MFM drive that also works. Since I have an M8189 CPU board, I have a second serial port that works as a TU58 device so I can use the tu58em emulator. I also have 512K of memory and a DZV11. Using the TU58 emulator I have been able to get RT-11 up and running on it. My goal though is to try and get RSX11M (I have no FPP right now) on it, but I am somewhat at a loss on how to get it installed. Anyone have any suggestions on how I could do that? I have some .tap files and some RL02 images with various versions of RSX11M, but I don't know how to get them onto my RD32 drive. Thanks in advance for any pointers or suggestions. And let me just say I love finally having a real PDP11!! -Peter --===============9172201074404422331==-- From cc@alderson.users.panix.com Fri Oct 18 23:03:37 2024 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] LCM+L power supply shenanigans [was Re: Re: CDC Cyber 180/8xx PSU] Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 18:47:08 -0400 Message-ID: <4XVfwD2Sv1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <6D38D586-3850-4A76-9992-04A15FCE954F@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8443895149630501118==" --===============8443895149630501118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 11:54:48 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > On 2024Oct 12,, at 4:51 AM, hupfadekroua via cctalk wrote: >> after approx 30 years of waiting our time has come to get hands on a Cyber= 180/860a. > ... >> Another approach would be to substitute the old psu by modern ones, possib= ly >> by DC-DC converters or switching powersupplies. >> Does someone have experience in the substitution of psus in the multiple KW >> range or did this in the past? Yes, we did. > If I recall, the late LCM did this (swapped out the original supply modules > and put in modern switching supplies) for one of their large machines. > (Again, IIRC) there were pictures on the website of the new supplies > installed in the cabinets. > I kinda think it was the CDC 6500, but was perhaps one of the DEC -10's. Nope, not the 6500. We replaced power supplies on a KL-10 in the blue 6ft cabinets (a DECsystem-1080) which was never on the 2nd floor, the PDP-7 from the Universi= ty of Oregon Nuclear Physics lab, and the KI-10 from Kiel. We rebuilt others. I personally rebuilt the Might Mite in the MIT-AI KS-10 (OMG, sysadmin with a screwdriver and high-V!). We rebuilt the big arse line= ar and all the smaller DEC power units in the orange 5ft KL-10 (a DECSYSTEM-2065) on which we ran Tops-10, because we had XKL Toad-1 and TOAD-2 systems for TOP= S-20. And on the 6500, we used a commercial semiconductor based converter which took in 60VAC and output 400VAC, because that was the least expensive thing we cou= ld do. > Of course, you can't just contact contact the LCM anymore. > Was it Rich Alderson from, or formerly, on the list who used to work at LCM? Used to work at, headed the project which became, was first curator for, spent 17 years at. Yeah. Rich --===============8443895149630501118==-- From nadav.eiron@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 23:43:49 2024 From: Nadav Eiron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:43:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5561598400070152232==" --===============5561598400070152232== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You may want to use simh (where you'll be able to mount tapes and RL02 images) to do the installation and generate an RD32 image. Once you have the disk image, use vtserver (note - some versions are limited to 32MB images, but there are some that remove that limitation - check if the struct vtcmd in vtserver.c uses 2 or 4 bytes for the block number), or PDP11GUI (Windows only) to transfer the RD32 disk image to your PDP over a serial port. On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 4:25 PM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello to the group, > > I have acquired some boards and a backplane for a PDP 11/23+. The disk > controller is an RQDX3 and I have a 3.5" drive that works as an RX50. I > have a greazeweasle so I am able to write RX50 images to 3.5 inch > floppies. I also have an RD32 MFM drive that also works. > > Since I have an M8189 CPU board, I have a second serial port that works as > a TU58 device so I can use the tu58em emulator. I also have 512K of memory > and a DZV11. Using the TU58 emulator I have been able to get RT-11 up and > running on it. > > My goal though is to try and get RSX11M (I have no FPP right now) on it, > but I am somewhat at a loss on how to get it installed. Anyone have any > suggestions on how I could do that? I have some .tap files and some RL02 > images with various versions of RSX11M, but I don't know how to get them > onto my RD32 drive. > > Thanks in advance for any pointers or suggestions. > > And let me just say I love finally having a real PDP11!! > > -Peter > --===============5561598400070152232==-- From kirkbdavis@me.com Fri Oct 18 23:49:27 2024 From: Kirk Davis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:42:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1312880761876490789==" --===============1312880761876490789== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Start on the simulator first you can make a lot of turns quickly and know wha= t to expect when you work on the real hardware. Kirk Sent from my iPad > On Oct 18, 2024, at 4:00=E2=80=AFPM, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHello to the group, >=20 > I have acquired some boards and a backplane for a PDP 11/23+. The disk > controller is an RQDX3 and I have a 3.5" drive that works as an RX50. I > have a greazeweasle so I am able to write RX50 images to 3.5 inch > floppies. I also have an RD32 MFM drive that also works. >=20 > Since I have an M8189 CPU board, I have a second serial port that works as > a TU58 device so I can use the tu58em emulator. I also have 512K of memory > and a DZV11. Using the TU58 emulator I have been able to get RT-11 up and > running on it. >=20 > My goal though is to try and get RSX11M (I have no FPP right now) on it, > but I am somewhat at a loss on how to get it installed. Anyone have any > suggestions on how I could do that? I have some .tap files and some RL02 > images with various versions of RSX11M, but I don't know how to get them > onto my RD32 drive. >=20 > Thanks in advance for any pointers or suggestions. >=20 > And let me just say I love finally having a real PDP11!! >=20 > -Peter --===============1312880761876490789==-- From kirkbdavis@me.com Sat Oct 19 00:11:45 2024 From: Kirk Davis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 17:11:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3587306095688356911==" --===============3587306095688356911== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are two versions of the TU58 emulator both from the same source I belie= ve. They both work well, but one has more de bugging features which are usef= ul. I used raspberry pi three I think. It had 2 USB serial ports. I set up a = terminal server that just reconnected to the USB serial port that is connecte= d to the console serial port on the CPU card. I don=E2=80=99t remember which = software I used. The simulator has debugging for the TU58 virtual driver. You can compare the = outputs with the debugging from the TU58 emulator on the real hardware too he= lp with debugging. The simulator has debugging break points. I believe if you set a point at loc= ation zero it will break just after the first stage of the boot has completed= . This was loaded from the first (and second ?) block on the tape. The second= stage isn=E2=80=99t too long after it=E2=80=99s done it jumps up high to the= actual RT 11 loader. I don=E2=80=99t remember any details about it after tha= t. This is all from memory so if I=E2=80=99m getting anything wrong, I=E2=80=99m= sure someone will clarify. Kirk Sent from my iPad > On Oct 18, 2024, at 4:50=E2=80=AFPM, Kirk Davis wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFStart on the simulator first you can make a lot of turns quickly a= nd know what to expect when you work on the real hardware. >=20 > Kirk >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 >> On Oct 18, 2024, at 4:00=E2=80=AFPM, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFHello to the group, >>=20 >> I have acquired some boards and a backplane for a PDP 11/23+. The disk >> controller is an RQDX3 and I have a 3.5" drive that works as an RX50. I >> have a greazeweasle so I am able to write RX50 images to 3.5 inch >> floppies. I also have an RD32 MFM drive that also works. >>=20 >> Since I have an M8189 CPU board, I have a second serial port that works as >> a TU58 device so I can use the tu58em emulator. I also have 512K of memory >> and a DZV11. Using the TU58 emulator I have been able to get RT-11 up and >> running on it. >>=20 >> My goal though is to try and get RSX11M (I have no FPP right now) on it, >> but I am somewhat at a loss on how to get it installed. Anyone have any >> suggestions on how I could do that? I have some .tap files and some RL02 >> images with various versions of RSX11M, but I don't know how to get them >> onto my RD32 drive. >>=20 >> Thanks in advance for any pointers or suggestions. >>=20 >> And let me just say I love finally having a real PDP11!! >>=20 >> -Peter --===============3587306095688356911==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Oct 19 01:00:46 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 21:00:32 -0400 Message-ID: <392c63a0-4728-4ed1-a624-0462086c091b@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2665802388618957284==" --===============2665802388618957284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The RL02 images probably won't help without a real RL02. Likewise .tap images won't help without a real TK50 or 70 tape unit. I typically gen my own M and M+ off real RL02 packs, but this takes time and is complicated. Thus I agree with the concept of build a RD32 image in SIMH, install RSX to it, then copy it over to your real RD32 and get rolling. M 4.2 should be fine for you, however you probably want to get a FPP at some point to more easily run FORTRAN programs. And with M you can install Decnet 4.0 which can allow you to use the second serial port for all sorts of fun shenannigans (I guess you could hook it to a serial port on a Pi, then bridge via TCP to HECNet) C On 10/18/2024 7:00 PM, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk wrote: > Hello to the group, > > I have acquired some boards and a backplane for a PDP 11/23+. The disk > controller is an RQDX3 and I have a 3.5" drive that works as an RX50. I > have a greazeweasle so I am able to write RX50 images to 3.5 inch > floppies. I also have an RD32 MFM drive that also works. > > Since I have an M8189 CPU board, I have a second serial port that works as > a TU58 device so I can use the tu58em emulator. I also have 512K of memory > and a DZV11. Using the TU58 emulator I have been able to get RT-11 up and > running on it. > > My goal though is to try and get RSX11M (I have no FPP right now) on it, > but I am somewhat at a loss on how to get it installed. Anyone have any > suggestions on how I could do that? I have some .tap files and some RL02 > images with various versions of RSX11M, but I don't know how to get them > onto my RD32 drive. > > Thanks in advance for any pointers or suggestions. > > And let me just say I love finally having a real PDP11!! > > -Peter --===============2665802388618957284==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Oct 19 13:58:31 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 08:58:15 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7207410068748896209==" --===============7207410068748896209== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some interesting things (on PC-5000): - I copied over QMATH, and old command line "parsing-calculator" I did in Turbo Pascal decades ago (probably about 1992, so post MSDOS5 at least), and it runs on the PC-5000! It's packaged in my "VUC" tools here (along with CDIR) voidstar78/VUC4DOS: voidstar Utility Collection for (MS/DR/PC) DOS (github.com) That just speaks well to the PC-5000 really being MS-DOS compatible (and that it ran an executable from a much later generation of MS-DOS). Note that CDIR itself doesn't run on that MS-DOS 2.00 system (I suspect anything that "touches color" won't run, based on trying to run a few other similar type things) - VER is saying MS-DOS 2.00, same as the startup/bootup note. Though it does say the "Command v2.02" shortly after (I suspect as it is loading the command.com, or in any case just prior to invoking autoexec.bat) - I don't have a "native" DEBUG.COM for 2.X yet (and ended up in a bad time that archive.org is majorly down again). And trying to run DEBUG.COM from 3.30 disks on the PC-5000 just says "Incorrect DOS version" (was we've discussed, which as mentioned I'll have to debug the debug.com on another system first to patch it) I'll dig into the .COM patching later, have some errands this weekend first. Plus, it turns out I "blew up" my parallel port *again*. Modern day, we take it for granted about USB being hot-swappable. Well, parallel-ports apparently aren't that forgiving - and I keep forgetting that. I've zapped two parallel cards now while swapping between parallel devices. (which I'm making good progress figuring out the "retro printer" that will emulator old printers and let us print from old software and go straight to a PDF, but still working on it) The LPT devices themselves are fine, just I really heard the electrical pop and just the parallel port is absolutely dead (everything else seems fine though) More to report later, but was excited that "something from the future" (qmath.exe built almost a decade after the PC-5000 was sold) worked. -SteveL On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:35=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis wrote: > > > I follow all that (on the DEBUG.COM notes) and appreciate the notes - > that > > will save some time, I look forward to trying a few things out tomorrow. > > > > I forgot to do VER explicitly, but on boot up it is saying MS-DOS 2.00. > > > > And just now, I recalled that on github there is MS-DOS source (and > bins) - > > I think Dave's Garage, he recently did a video on building and booting > > MS-DOS 4.0 from that source. Maybe I should use this as an excuse to > try > > a 2.0 build? Or least, reading through the FORMAT.ASM, I see all the > > DOSVER checking stuff - helps confirm patch addresses, or maybe try just > > recompiling that one utility without this check. > > > > > > Reading through the CONFIG.txt in the MS-DOS 2.0 github repo, it's > > interesting near the end: (the use of forward slash instead of > backslash, > > ha! and just above this, the comments mention /dev/) > > > > "A typical configuration file might look like this: > > > > BUFFERS =3D 10 > > FILES =3D 10 > > DEVICE =3D /bin/network.sys > > BREAK =3D ON > > SWITCHAR =3D - > > SHELL =3D a:/bin/command.com a:/bin -p" > > GOOD > So, you should be able to patch FORMAT 2.11 ti work on the DOS version > that is running. > > BUT, whether Format /S or SYS will work remains to be seen. > > > I have seen cases where the opening banner does not quite match the stored > version number, such as 4.01 V 4.00 > and a conditional jmp needs an exact match. > > > So, definitely run VER > > and/or > in debug A(Assemble) > > MOV AH,30 > INT 21 > INT 3 ; ends program and displays registers > > and see what it shows in AX > (running that in CMD of my Windows 7 gives 0005 (5.00)!) > > > One of the early homework assignments when I taught PC Assembly was to go > into DEBUG and patch LINK.EXE and EXE2BIN.EXE to eliminate DOD version > checking. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============7207410068748896209==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Sat Oct 19 17:28:41 2024 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 12:20:26 -0500 Message-ID: <4e7a10ab-6b77-4267-a433-e107bdc33ea0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <172935720804.2847341.362288465942512497@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0136982019111467429==" --===============0136982019111467429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/19/2024 12:00 PM, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: > [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 >You may want to use simh (where you'll be able to mount tapes and RL02 >images) to do the installation and generate an RD32 image. Once you have >the disk image, use vtserver (note - some versions are limited to 32MB >images, but there are some that remove that limitation - check if the >struct vtcmd in vtserver.c uses 2 or 4 bytes for the block number), or >PDP11GUI (Windows only) to transfer the RD32 disk image to your PDP over a >serial port. If you go this route, be advised, that SIMH creates RD32 disk images are n= ot the same size as a real RD32. This will likely cause problems when writing= a SIMH created image to a real disk (and I'm not talking about the additiona= l issues that the trailing metadata on disk images from the Pizzolato version= of SIMH can cause - the problem I'm describing is caused by an incorrect dis= k size value in SIMH). -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============0136982019111467429==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sat Oct 19 17:43:47 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 13:43:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7558412782504756801==" --===============7558412782504756801== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Great to see my old PC5000 receiving so much loving attention; thanks Steve! FWIW, related to the discussion elsewhere about BBSs, that PC5000 was originally owned by Canada Remote Systems, a smaller Canadian version of Compuserve based here in Toronto, It was a fairly large (by Canadian standards) commercial BBS system of the 80s and 90s, noted primarily for its extensive file collection; I think I still have some of their collection disks on 8" media somewhere. On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 10:05 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Some interesting things (on PC-5000): > > - I copied over QMATH, and old command line "parsing-calculator" I did in > Turbo Pascal decades ago (probably about 1992, so post MSDOS5 at least), > and it runs on the PC-5000! It's packaged in my "VUC" tools here (along > with CDIR) voidstar78/VUC4DOS: voidstar Utility Collection for (MS/DR/PC) > DOS (github.com) > That just speaks well to the PC-5000 really being MS-DOS compatible (and > that it ran an executable from a much later generation of MS-DOS). Note > that CDIR itself doesn't run on that MS-DOS 2.00 system (I suspect anything > that "touches color" won't run, based on trying to run a few other similar > type things) > > - VER is saying MS-DOS 2.00, same as the startup/bootup note. Though it > does say the "Command v2.02" shortly after (I suspect as it is loading the > command.com, or in any case just prior to invoking autoexec.bat) > > - I don't have a "native" DEBUG.COM for 2.X yet (and ended up in a bad > time > that archive.org is majorly down again). And trying to run DEBUG.COM from > 3.30 disks on the PC-5000 just says "Incorrect DOS version" (was we've > discussed, which as mentioned I'll have to debug the debug.com on another > system first to patch it) > > I'll dig into the .COM patching later, have some errands this weekend > first. Plus, it turns out I "blew up" my parallel port *again*. Modern > day, we take it for granted about USB being hot-swappable. Well, > parallel-ports apparently aren't that forgiving - and I keep forgetting > that. I've zapped two parallel cards now while swapping between parallel > devices. (which I'm making good progress figuring out the "retro printer" > that will emulator old printers and let us print from old software and go > straight to a PDF, but still working on it) The LPT devices themselves > are fine, just I really heard the electrical pop and just the parallel port > is absolutely dead (everything else seems fine though) > > More to report later, but was excited that "something from the future" > (qmath.exe built almost a decade after the PC-5000 was sold) worked. > > > -SteveL > > > > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:35 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis wrote: > > > > > I follow all that (on the DEBUG.COM notes) and appreciate the notes - > > that > > > will save some time, I look forward to trying a few things out > tomorrow. > > > > > > I forgot to do VER explicitly, but on boot up it is saying MS-DOS 2.00. > > > > > > And just now, I recalled that on github there is MS-DOS source (and > > bins) - > > > I think Dave's Garage, he recently did a video on building and booting > > > MS-DOS 4.0 from that source. Maybe I should use this as an excuse to > > try > > > a 2.0 build? Or least, reading through the FORMAT.ASM, I see all the > > > DOSVER checking stuff - helps confirm patch addresses, or maybe try > just > > > recompiling that one utility without this check. > > > > > > > > > Reading through the CONFIG.txt in the MS-DOS 2.0 github repo, it's > > > interesting near the end: (the use of forward slash instead of > > backslash, > > > ha! and just above this, the comments mention /dev/) > > > > > > "A typical configuration file might look like this: > > > > > > BUFFERS = 10 > > > FILES = 10 > > > DEVICE = /bin/network.sys > > > BREAK = ON > > > SWITCHAR = - > > > SHELL = a:/bin/command.com a:/bin -p" > > > > GOOD > > So, you should be able to patch FORMAT 2.11 ti work on the DOS version > > that is running. > > > > BUT, whether Format /S or SYS will work remains to be seen. > > > > > > I have seen cases where the opening banner does not quite match the > stored > > version number, such as 4.01 V 4.00 > > and a conditional jmp needs an exact match. > > > > > > So, definitely run VER > > > > and/or > > in debug A(Assemble) > > > > MOV AH,30 > > INT 21 > > INT 3 ; ends program and displays registers > > > > and see what it shows in AX > > (running that in CMD of my Windows 7 gives 0005 (5.00)!) > > > > > > One of the early homework assignments when I taught PC Assembly was to go > > into DEBUG and patch LINK.EXE and EXE2BIN.EXE to eliminate DOD version > > checking. > > > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > > --===============7558412782504756801==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Oct 19 18:18:50 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 14:18:39 -0400 Message-ID: <9aa71280-b3ab-4af8-b378-a35506422588@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <4e7a10ab-6b77-4267-a433-e107bdc33ea0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6408059576601934326==" --===============6408059576601934326== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >   If you go this route, be advised, that SIMH creates RD32 disk images > are not the same size as a real RD32. This will likely cause problems > when writing a SIMH created image to a real disk (and I'm not talking > about the additional issues that the trailing metadata on disk images > from the Pizzolato version of SIMH can cause - the problem I'm > describing is caused by an incorrect disk size value in SIMH). True, I think you can get around this by making the disk in SIMH a couple of blocks smaller. However there is another way. Format your real RD32 with the RQDX3 formatter, then once formatted suck it into a file. Then you have an exact replica you can mount in SIMH and load it up. I did this with a 154mb Hitachi ESDI MCSP disk that went "bad" 30 years ago and would not boot. Sucked it in, booted RSX11M off a virtual drive, then mounted it. Turns out when I did a purge of old files I deleted the RSX11M.TSK file I was using to boot because I forgot to do a /SAV /WB in VMR to update the boot block to the new file location. Did that, system booted, then copied it back to the "real" Hitachi disk. Back in operation. :-) --===============6408059576601934326==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Oct 20 07:03:42 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 02:03:26 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6961981273158704556==" --===============6961981273158704556== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mike!! Oh I was so nervous taking it apart - I was thinking of you, and worrying about how I'm probably going to end up having to sadly explain why this system doesn't work anymore. But 'lo and behold, I did manage to get it back together! (notes are in my PC-5000 page linked earlier, which is now a bit long winded for a single page - I'll spit it out eventually). I was trying to go after the CMOS battery, or its equivalent - but wow, Sharp made that very difficult. As you'll see in the photos, the component side of the mainboard is actually pointed down. Since this is still very much a working system, I didn't feel comfortable completely disassembling it - you have to get the entire mainboard out. But I got to the vicinity of the area at least. On the positive, my thinking is that since the battery is "inverted" from normal and pointing towards the ground - if it does leak, it'll just leak into the plastic base of the system. With the disk drives, I can now get new software onto the system more easily. But, looks like I'll have to give up on making a boot disk floppy for the system. I've added a ton of notes to my PC-5000 page about it. @Fred Cisin - I did manage to digest and follow your DEBUG.COM advise, and it all did work (in getting past "incorrect DOS version"). But when it came to the business of actually executing a format, they still did not work. As others have suspect, we're just going to need to find that original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 boot disk someday. In poking around the MS-DOS 2.00 source code on github, it actually doesn't have a pre-built FORMAT.COM - instead it has a FORMAT.DOC file that describes notes on what is expected for an OEM vendor to implement to support doing a format. While we did finally find a format that allows SYS.COM to work, it's still mysterious on why the (bootable) bubble memory report 6 hidden files, but a SYS'd disk is only reporting 2 hidden files (I think someone else here did cover that, in suggesting some vendors did need extra files to fully implementation their DOS?) So it's been a valiant effort, but I'm content enough just being able to move files on/off the system via disks - meanwhile we'll just hunt for that original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 image, it surely is somewhere "out there" eventually. (again, notes on this are on my PC-5000 page - but the short of it is: - MS-DOS 1.25 FORMAT.COM didn't care about version but didn't even try to actually format (locked up) - (Sharp) MS-DOS 2.11 FORMAT.COM was patched, and would show help on command line arguments, but wouldn't actually run when given /2 /8 or /S, etc. - MS-DOS 3.30 FORMAT.COM was patched, but declared the target drive as ASSIGNed or SUBSTed and refused to proceed The disk controller interface on this system just isn't "PC Compatible" enough. -SL On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 12:43 PM Mike Stein wrote: > Great to see my old PC5000 receiving so much loving attention; thanks > Steve! > > FWIW, related to the discussion elsewhere about BBSs, that PC5000 was > originally owned by Canada Remote Systems, a smaller Canadian version of > Compuserve based here in Toronto, It was a fairly large (by Canadian > standards) commercial BBS system of the 80s and 90s, noted primarily for > its extensive file collection; I think I still have some of their > collection disks on 8" media somewhere. > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 10:05 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Some interesting things (on PC-5000): >> >> - I copied over QMATH, and old command line "parsing-calculator" I did in >> Turbo Pascal decades ago (probably about 1992, so post MSDOS5 at least), >> and it runs on the PC-5000! It's packaged in my "VUC" tools here (along >> with CDIR) voidstar78/VUC4DOS: voidstar Utility Collection for (MS/DR/PC) >> DOS (github.com) >> That just speaks well to the PC-5000 really being MS-DOS compatible (and >> that it ran an executable from a much later generation of MS-DOS). Note >> that CDIR itself doesn't run on that MS-DOS 2.00 system (I suspect >> anything >> that "touches color" won't run, based on trying to run a few other similar >> type things) >> >> - VER is saying MS-DOS 2.00, same as the startup/bootup note. Though it >> does say the "Command v2.02" shortly after (I suspect as it is loading the >> command.com, or in any case just prior to invoking autoexec.bat) >> >> - I don't have a "native" DEBUG.COM for 2.X yet (and ended up in a bad >> time >> that archive.org is majorly down again). And trying to run DEBUG.COM >> from >> 3.30 disks on the PC-5000 just says "Incorrect DOS version" (was we've >> discussed, which as mentioned I'll have to debug the debug.com on another >> system first to patch it) >> >> I'll dig into the .COM patching later, have some errands this weekend >> first. Plus, it turns out I "blew up" my parallel port *again*. Modern >> day, we take it for granted about USB being hot-swappable. Well, >> parallel-ports apparently aren't that forgiving - and I keep forgetting >> that. I've zapped two parallel cards now while swapping between parallel >> devices. (which I'm making good progress figuring out the "retro >> printer" >> that will emulator old printers and let us print from old software and go >> straight to a PDF, but still working on it) The LPT devices themselves >> are fine, just I really heard the electrical pop and just the parallel >> port >> is absolutely dead (everything else seems fine though) >> >> More to report later, but was excited that "something from the future" >> (qmath.exe built almost a decade after the PC-5000 was sold) worked. >> >> >> -SteveL >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:35 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >> >> > On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis wrote: >> > >> > > I follow all that (on the DEBUG.COM notes) and appreciate the notes - >> > that >> > > will save some time, I look forward to trying a few things out >> tomorrow. >> > > >> > > I forgot to do VER explicitly, but on boot up it is saying MS-DOS >> 2.00. >> > > >> > > And just now, I recalled that on github there is MS-DOS source (and >> > bins) - >> > > I think Dave's Garage, he recently did a video on building and booting >> > > MS-DOS 4.0 from that source. Maybe I should use this as an excuse to >> > try >> > > a 2.0 build? Or least, reading through the FORMAT.ASM, I see all >> the >> > > DOSVER checking stuff - helps confirm patch addresses, or maybe try >> just >> > > recompiling that one utility without this check. >> > > >> > > >> > > Reading through the CONFIG.txt in the MS-DOS 2.0 github repo, it's >> > > interesting near the end: (the use of forward slash instead of >> > backslash, >> > > ha! and just above this, the comments mention /dev/) >> > > >> > > "A typical configuration file might look like this: >> > > >> > > BUFFERS = 10 >> > > FILES = 10 >> > > DEVICE = /bin/network.sys >> > > BREAK = ON >> > > SWITCHAR = - >> > > SHELL = a:/bin/command.com a:/bin -p" >> > >> > GOOD >> > So, you should be able to patch FORMAT 2.11 ti work on the DOS version >> > that is running. >> > >> > BUT, whether Format /S or SYS will work remains to be seen. >> > >> > >> > I have seen cases where the opening banner does not quite match the >> stored >> > version number, such as 4.01 V 4.00 >> > and a conditional jmp needs an exact match. >> > >> > >> > So, definitely run VER >> > >> > and/or >> > in debug A(Assemble) >> > >> > MOV AH,30 >> > INT 21 >> > INT 3 ; ends program and displays registers >> > >> > and see what it shows in AX >> > (running that in CMD of my Windows 7 gives 0005 (5.00)!) >> > >> > >> > One of the early homework assignments when I taught PC Assembly was to >> go >> > into DEBUG and patch LINK.EXE and EXE2BIN.EXE to eliminate DOD version >> > checking. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >> > >> > --===============6961981273158704556==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Sun Oct 20 13:02:54 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 09:02:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9aa71280-b3ab-4af8-b378-a35506422588@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4316747171174844713==" --===============4316747171174844713== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you all for the tips and pointers. I like the idea of pulling the image off of my real drive, but how would I transfer it between the pdp and my Linux box with Simh? It is too big for the tu58 emulator. On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 03:15 cz via cctalk wrote: > > If you go this route, be advised, that SIMH creates RD32 disk images > > are not the same size as a real RD32. This will likely cause problems > > when writing a SIMH created image to a real disk (and I'm not talking > > about the additional issues that the trailing metadata on disk images > > from the Pizzolato version of SIMH can cause - the problem I'm > > describing is caused by an incorrect disk size value in SIMH). > > True, I think you can get around this by making them disk in SIMH a > couple of blocks smaller. > > However there is another way. Format your real RD32 with the RQDX3 > formatter, then once formatted suck it into a file. Then you have an > exact replica you can mount in SIMH and load it up. > > I did this with a 154mb Hitachi ESDI MCSP disk that went "bad" 30 years > ago and would not boot. Sucked it in, booted RSX11M off a virtual drive, > then mounted it. Turns out when I did a purge of old files I deleted the > RSX11M.TSK file I was using to boot because I forgot to do a /SAV /WB in > VMR to update the boot block to the new file location. Did that, system > booted, then copied it back to the "real" Hitachi disk. > > Back in operation. :-) > > --===============4316747171174844713==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Sun Oct 20 13:07:28 2024 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] RM 380Z software. Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 13:07:22 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5922377376886097290==" --===============5922377376886097290== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have recently been able to fix my early 380Z blue case however it is a cass= ette only system and it=E2=80=99s not as simple as adding my spare disk contr= oller so I=E2=80=99m on the lookout for 380 software cassettes or dumps of th= ose cassettes so I can run software on it and demonstrate it at VCF Zurich in= January --===============5922377376886097290==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sun Oct 20 13:23:43 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 09:23:33 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2720027659165167706==" --===============2720027659165167706== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit use pdp11gui or vtserver. They can use ODT to upload a small program to the 11 which allows it to send or receive an image to a MCSP or RL/RX/Whatever drive. Can be slow (top speed is 9600 or 19200 baud on an 11/23) but it does get the job done. C On 10/20/2024 9:02 AM, Peter Ekstrom wrote: > Thank you all for the tips and pointers. I like the idea of pulling the > image off of my real drive, but how would I transfer it between the pdp > and my Linux box with Simh? It is too big for the tu58 emulator. > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 03:15 cz via cctalk > wrote: > > >    If you go this route, be advised, that SIMH creates RD32 disk > images > > are not the same size as a real RD32. This will likely cause > problems > > when writing a SIMH created image to a real disk (and I'm not > talking > > about the additional issues that the trailing metadata on disk > images > > from the Pizzolato version of SIMH can cause - the problem I'm > > describing is caused by an incorrect disk size value in SIMH). > > True, I think you can get around this by making them  disk in SIMH a > couple of blocks smaller. > > However there is another way. Format your real RD32 with the RQDX3 > formatter, then once formatted suck it into a file. Then you have an > exact replica you can mount in SIMH and load it up. > > I did this with a 154mb Hitachi ESDI MCSP disk that went "bad" 30 years > ago and would not boot. Sucked it in, booted RSX11M off a virtual > drive, > then mounted it. Turns out when I did a purge of old files I deleted > the > RSX11M.TSK file I was using to boot because I forgot to do a /SAV / > WB in > VMR to update the boot block to the new file location. Did that, system > booted, then copied it back to the "real" Hitachi disk. > > Back in operation. :-) > --===============2720027659165167706==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Sun Oct 20 13:31:13 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 09:30:55 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1889139679150535107==" --===============1889139679150535107== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aha! Ok great, I need to look closer at those then. Thank you! On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:23 AM cz wrote: > use pdp11gui or vtserver. They can use ODT to upload a small program to > the 11 which allows it to send or receive an image to a MCSP or > RL/RX/Whatever drive. Can be slow (top speed is 9600 or 19200 baud on an > 11/23) but it does get the job done. > > C > > > On 10/20/2024 9:02 AM, Peter Ekstrom wrote: > > Thank you all for the tips and pointers. I like the idea of pulling the > > image off of my real drive, but how would I transfer it between the pdp > > and my Linux box with Simh? It is too big for the tu58 emulator. > > > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 03:15 cz via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > If you go this route, be advised, that SIMH creates RD32 disk > > images > > > are not the same size as a real RD32. This will likely cause > > problems > > > when writing a SIMH created image to a real disk (and I'm not > > talking > > > about the additional issues that the trailing metadata on disk > > images > > > from the Pizzolato version of SIMH can cause - the problem I'm > > > describing is caused by an incorrect disk size value in SIMH). > > > > True, I think you can get around this by making them disk in SIMH a > > couple of blocks smaller. > > > > However there is another way. Format your real RD32 with the RQDX3 > > formatter, then once formatted suck it into a file. Then you have an > > exact replica you can mount in SIMH and load it up. > > > > I did this with a 154mb Hitachi ESDI MCSP disk that went "bad" 30 > years > > ago and would not boot. Sucked it in, booted RSX11M off a virtual > > drive, > > then mounted it. Turns out when I did a purge of old files I deleted > > the > > RSX11M.TSK file I was using to boot because I forgot to do a /SAV / > > WB in > > VMR to update the boot block to the new file location. Did that, > system > > booted, then copied it back to the "real" Hitachi disk. > > > > Back in operation. :-) > > > > --===============1889139679150535107==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Sun Oct 20 16:34:48 2024 From: Donald Whittemore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 16:34:44 +0000 Message-ID: <172944208421.4006402.17743075962991302259@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7712527243100696809==" --===============7712527243100696809== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Finally got the program I had a friend write back in 2009 working. I had it w= ritten specifically because I had this disk. Shades of watching a 2311 working. =F0=9F=98=80 http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/exercise.mp4 --===============7712527243100696809==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 21 00:10:51 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 18:10:42 -0600 Message-ID: <09d9952d-ae8f-4578-aeb8-e5c71fd5e88e@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <172944208421.4006402.17743075962991302259@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5614629178668847770==" --===============5614629178668847770== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-10-20 10:34 a.m., Donald Whittemore via cctalk wrote: > Finally got the program I had a friend write back in 2009 working. I had it= written specifically because I had this disk. > Shades of watching a 2311 working. =F0=9F=98=80 >=20 > http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/exercise.mp4 Now, let's do this in LEGO. :) --===============5614629178668847770==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 14:27:44 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:27:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4852798272790266540==" --===============4852798272790266540== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hmm, not sure why yet, but I'm not able to get vtserver to work. I have entered the bootcode manually in ODT, and I have had vtserver send it. It looks like it loads the code and then reads one record but then hangs. I'm wondering if my version of ODT on the CPU board needs something to be handled differently. Btw, the version I have found of vtserver is 2.3.1.5. I can't seem to find anything later than that. I am going to try PDP11GUI but I am waiting on a supported USB-RS232 adapter to arrive. The ones I have aren't supported under Windows anymore. I should have it tomorrow. -Peter On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:30 AM Peter Ekstrom wrote: > Aha! Ok great, I need to look closer at those then. Thank you! > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:23 AM cz wrote: > >> use pdp11gui or vtserver. They can use ODT to upload a small program to >> the 11 which allows it to send or receive an image to a MCSP or >> RL/RX/Whatever drive. Can be slow (top speed is 9600 or 19200 baud on an >> 11/23) but it does get the job done. >> >> C >> >> >> On 10/20/2024 9:02 AM, Peter Ekstrom wrote: >> > Thank you all for the tips and pointers. I like the idea of pulling the >> > image off of my real drive, but how would I transfer it between the pdp >> > and my Linux box with Simh? It is too big for the tu58 emulator. >> > >> > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 03:15 cz via cctalk > > > wrote: >> > >> > > If you go this route, be advised, that SIMH creates RD32 disk >> > images >> > > are not the same size as a real RD32. This will likely cause >> > problems >> > > when writing a SIMH created image to a real disk (and I'm not >> > talking >> > > about the additional issues that the trailing metadata on disk >> > images >> > > from the Pizzolato version of SIMH can cause - the problem I'm >> > > describing is caused by an incorrect disk size value in SIMH). >> > >> > True, I think you can get around this by making them disk in SIMH a >> > couple of blocks smaller. >> > >> > However there is another way. Format your real RD32 with the RQDX3 >> > formatter, then once formatted suck it into a file. Then you have an >> > exact replica you can mount in SIMH and load it up. >> > >> > I did this with a 154mb Hitachi ESDI MCSP disk that went "bad" 30 >> years >> > ago and would not boot. Sucked it in, booted RSX11M off a virtual >> > drive, >> > then mounted it. Turns out when I did a purge of old files I deleted >> > the >> > RSX11M.TSK file I was using to boot because I forgot to do a /SAV / >> > WB in >> > VMR to update the boot block to the new file location. Did that, >> system >> > booted, then copied it back to the "real" Hitachi disk. >> > >> > Back in operation. :-) >> > >> >> --===============4852798272790266540==-- From nadav.eiron@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 15:10:30 2024 From: Nadav Eiron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 08:10:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0020758029740299990==" --===============0020758029740299990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My 11/23 is not accessible, but I believe I've used this version a couple of years ago (on a Raspberry Pi): https://github.com/drboone/vtserver On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 7:45=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hmm, not sure why yet, but I'm not able to get vtserver to work. I have > entered the bootcode manually in ODT, and I have had vtserver send it. > It looks like it loads the code and then reads one record but then hangs. > I'm wondering if my version of ODT on the CPU board needs something to be > handled differently. > Btw, the version I have found of vtserver is 2.3.1.5. I can't seem to find > anything later than that. > > I am going to try PDP11GUI but I am waiting on a supported USB-RS232 > adapter to arrive. The ones I have aren't supported under Windows anymore. > I should have it tomorrow. > > -Peter > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:30=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom wrote: > > > Aha! Ok great, I need to look closer at those then. Thank you! > > > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:23=E2=80=AFAM cz wro= te: > > > >> use pdp11gui or vtserver. They can use ODT to upload a small program to > >> the 11 which allows it to send or receive an image to a MCSP or > >> RL/RX/Whatever drive. Can be slow (top speed is 9600 or 19200 baud on an > >> 11/23) but it does get the job done. > >> > >> C > >> > >> > >> On 10/20/2024 9:02 AM, Peter Ekstrom wrote: > >> > Thank you all for the tips and pointers. I like the idea of pulling > the > >> > image off of my real drive, but how would I transfer it between the > pdp > >> > and my Linux box with Simh? It is too big for the tu58 emulator. > >> > > >> > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 03:15 cz via cctalk >> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > > If you go this route, be advised, that SIMH creates RD32 > disk > >> > images > >> > > are not the same size as a real RD32. This will likely cause > >> > problems > >> > > when writing a SIMH created image to a real disk (and I'm not > >> > talking > >> > > about the additional issues that the trailing metadata on disk > >> > images > >> > > from the Pizzolato version of SIMH can cause - the problem I'm > >> > > describing is caused by an incorrect disk size value in SIMH). > >> > > >> > True, I think you can get around this by making them disk in > SIMH a > >> > couple of blocks smaller. > >> > > >> > However there is another way. Format your real RD32 with the RQDX3 > >> > formatter, then once formatted suck it into a file. Then you have > an > >> > exact replica you can mount in SIMH and load it up. > >> > > >> > I did this with a 154mb Hitachi ESDI MCSP disk that went "bad" 30 > >> years > >> > ago and would not boot. Sucked it in, booted RSX11M off a virtual > >> > drive, > >> > then mounted it. Turns out when I did a purge of old files I > deleted > >> > the > >> > RSX11M.TSK file I was using to boot because I forgot to do a /SAV > / > >> > WB in > >> > VMR to update the boot block to the new file location. Did that, > >> system > >> > booted, then copied it back to the "real" Hitachi disk. > >> > > >> > Back in operation. :-) > >> > > >> > >> > --===============0020758029740299990==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 15:55:13 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 11:54:56 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4990915412245963301==" --===============4990915412245963301== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Awesome! That appears to work. So even though it has the same version number as the one I have tried from another git repo, it is different. Thank you for this information! -Peter On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 11:10=E2=80=AFAM Nadav Eiron wrote: > My 11/23 is not accessible, but I believe I've used this version a couple > of years ago (on a Raspberry Pi): https://github.com/drboone/vtserver > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 7:45=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hmm, not sure why yet, but I'm not able to get vtserver to work. I have >> entered the bootcode manually in ODT, and I have had vtserver send it. >> It looks like it loads the code and then reads one record but then hangs. >> I'm wondering if my version of ODT on the CPU board needs something to be >> handled differently. >> Btw, the version I have found of vtserver is 2.3.1.5. I can't seem to find >> anything later than that. >> >> I am going to try PDP11GUI but I am waiting on a supported USB-RS232 >> adapter to arrive. The ones I have aren't supported under Windows anymore. >> I should have it tomorrow. >> >> -Peter >> >> On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:30=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom >> wrote: >> >> > Aha! Ok great, I need to look closer at those then. Thank you! >> > >> > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:23=E2=80=AFAM cz wr= ote: >> > >> >> use pdp11gui or vtserver. They can use ODT to upload a small program to >> >> the 11 which allows it to send or receive an image to a MCSP or >> >> RL/RX/Whatever drive. Can be slow (top speed is 9600 or 19200 baud on >> an >> >> 11/23) but it does get the job done. >> >> >> >> C >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10/20/2024 9:02 AM, Peter Ekstrom wrote: >> >> > Thank you all for the tips and pointers. I like the idea of pulling >> the >> >> > image off of my real drive, but how would I transfer it between the >> pdp >> >> > and my Linux box with Simh? It is too big for the tu58 emulator. >> >> > >> >> > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 03:15 cz via cctalk > >> > > wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > If you go this route, be advised, that SIMH creates RD32 >> disk >> >> > images >> >> > > are not the same size as a real RD32. This will likely cause >> >> > problems >> >> > > when writing a SIMH created image to a real disk (and I'm not >> >> > talking >> >> > > about the additional issues that the trailing metadata on disk >> >> > images >> >> > > from the Pizzolato version of SIMH can cause - the problem I'm >> >> > > describing is caused by an incorrect disk size value in SIMH). >> >> > >> >> > True, I think you can get around this by making them disk in >> SIMH a >> >> > couple of blocks smaller. >> >> > >> >> > However there is another way. Format your real RD32 with the >> RQDX3 >> >> > formatter, then once formatted suck it into a file. Then you >> have an >> >> > exact replica you can mount in SIMH and load it up. >> >> > >> >> > I did this with a 154mb Hitachi ESDI MCSP disk that went "bad" 30 >> >> years >> >> > ago and would not boot. Sucked it in, booted RSX11M off a virtual >> >> > drive, >> >> > then mounted it. Turns out when I did a purge of old files I >> deleted >> >> > the >> >> > RSX11M.TSK file I was using to boot because I forgot to do a >> /SAV / >> >> > WB in >> >> > VMR to update the boot block to the new file location. Did that, >> >> system >> >> > booted, then copied it back to the "real" Hitachi disk. >> >> > >> >> > Back in operation. :-) >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > --===============4990915412245963301==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 02:15:51 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RSX11M installation on real PDP11 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 22:15:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3381752872126177368==" --===============3381752872126177368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alright! I booted up RSX11M 4.2 a little bit ago on my 11/23-plus! I had logged in to one of my Linux machines from my work laptop to run the copy, and of course they installed Windows updates and it needed to reboot. But I have a little more than half of the disk image copied over so I was able to boot it up. Very exciting! I'll start the copy over a bit later in the week when I can let it run longer. I also have a DECNA card in the machine now so I can install DECnet and play with that uner RSX. I wish I could install TCP/IP but I understand the hardware doesn't have the separate I/D space so it won't work. Thanks again for all the pointers and tips! -Peter On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 11:54=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom wrote: > Awesome! That appears to work. So even though it has the same version > number as the one I have tried from another git repo, it is different. > > Thank you for this information! > > -Peter > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 11:10=E2=80=AFAM Nadav Eiron > wrote: > >> My 11/23 is not accessible, but I believe I've used this version a couple >> of years ago (on a Raspberry Pi): https://github.com/drboone/vtserver >> >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 7:45=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Hmm, not sure why yet, but I'm not able to get vtserver to work. I have >>> entered the bootcode manually in ODT, and I have had vtserver send it. >>> It looks like it loads the code and then reads one record but then hangs. >>> I'm wondering if my version of ODT on the CPU board needs something to be >>> handled differently. >>> Btw, the version I have found of vtserver is 2.3.1.5. I can't seem to >>> find >>> anything later than that. >>> >>> I am going to try PDP11GUI but I am waiting on a supported USB-RS232 >>> adapter to arrive. The ones I have aren't supported under Windows >>> anymore. >>> I should have it tomorrow. >>> >>> -Peter >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:30=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Aha! Ok great, I need to look closer at those then. Thank you! >>> > >>> > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:23=E2=80=AFAM cz w= rote: >>> > >>> >> use pdp11gui or vtserver. They can use ODT to upload a small program >>> to >>> >> the 11 which allows it to send or receive an image to a MCSP or >>> >> RL/RX/Whatever drive. Can be slow (top speed is 9600 or 19200 baud on >>> an >>> >> 11/23) but it does get the job done. >>> >> >>> >> C >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On 10/20/2024 9:02 AM, Peter Ekstrom wrote: >>> >> > Thank you all for the tips and pointers. I like the idea of pulling >>> the >>> >> > image off of my real drive, but how would I transfer it between the >>> pdp >>> >> > and my Linux box with Simh? It is too big for the tu58 emulator. >>> >> > >>> >> > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 03:15 cz via cctalk >> >> > > wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > > If you go this route, be advised, that SIMH creates RD32 >>> disk >>> >> > images >>> >> > > are not the same size as a real RD32. This will likely cause >>> >> > problems >>> >> > > when writing a SIMH created image to a real disk (and I'm not >>> >> > talking >>> >> > > about the additional issues that the trailing metadata on >>> disk >>> >> > images >>> >> > > from the Pizzolato version of SIMH can cause - the problem >>> I'm >>> >> > > describing is caused by an incorrect disk size value in >>> SIMH). >>> >> > >>> >> > True, I think you can get around this by making them disk in >>> SIMH a >>> >> > couple of blocks smaller. >>> >> > >>> >> > However there is another way. Format your real RD32 with the >>> RQDX3 >>> >> > formatter, then once formatted suck it into a file. Then you >>> have an >>> >> > exact replica you can mount in SIMH and load it up. >>> >> > >>> >> > I did this with a 154mb Hitachi ESDI MCSP disk that went "bad" >>> 30 >>> >> years >>> >> > ago and would not boot. Sucked it in, booted RSX11M off a >>> virtual >>> >> > drive, >>> >> > then mounted it. Turns out when I did a purge of old files I >>> deleted >>> >> > the >>> >> > RSX11M.TSK file I was using to boot because I forgot to do a >>> /SAV / >>> >> > WB in >>> >> > VMR to update the boot block to the new file location. Did that, >>> >> system >>> >> > booted, then copied it back to the "real" Hitachi disk. >>> >> > >>> >> > Back in operation. :-) >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> --===============3381752872126177368==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 19:20:59 2024 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 20:19:32 +0100 Message-ID: <61883f94-5f1f-4588-8c22-9ff9e651f9b0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5387221639518358374==" --===============5387221639518358374== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve, I think I can help you. I have a PC-5000 disk image of a double-sided 5.25 disk (360kb format)=20 called CE-101FA on my Google Drive. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qo6A3ZzkOHzxh5M5XEjqcKPP2F63Zi9P?usp= =3Dsharing The images were created with a Greazweasel. For test read twice, but=20 identical in both cases. The disk files can be found in the Disk_Image directory. Including=20 Format and Basic and Macro Assembler and so on. Also various image=20 formats for creating disks. Enjoy Thomas On 20.10.2024 08:03, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Hi Mike!! Oh I was so nervous taking it apart - I was thinking of you, > and worrying about how I'm probably going to end up having to sadly explain > why this system doesn't work anymore. But 'lo and behold, I did manage to > get it back together! (notes are in my PC-5000 page linked earlier, which > is now a bit long winded for a single page - I'll spit it out eventually). > > > I was trying to go after the CMOS battery, or its equivalent - but wow, > Sharp made that very difficult. As you'll see in the photos, the > component side of the mainboard is actually pointed down. Since this is > still very much a working system, I didn't feel comfortable completely > disassembling it - you have to get the entire mainboard out. But I got to > the vicinity of the area at least. On the positive, my thinking is that > since the battery is "inverted" from normal and pointing towards the ground > - if it does leak, it'll just leak into the plastic base of the system. > > With the disk drives, I can now get new software onto the system more > easily. But, looks like I'll have to give up on making a boot disk floppy > for the system. I've added a ton of notes to my PC-5000 page about it. > > > @Fred Cisin - I did manage to digest and follow your DEBUG.COM advise, and > it all did work (in getting past "incorrect DOS version"). But when it > came to the business of actually executing a format, they still did not > work. As others have suspect, we're just going to need to find that > original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 boot disk someday. In poking around the MS-DOS > 2.00 source code on github, it actually doesn't have a pre-built FORMAT.COM > - instead it has a FORMAT.DOC file that describes notes on what is expected > for an OEM vendor to implement to support doing a format. While we did > finally find a format that allows SYS.COM to work, it's still mysterious on > why the (bootable) bubble memory report 6 hidden files, but a SYS'd disk is > only reporting 2 hidden files (I think someone else here did cover that, in > suggesting some vendors did need extra files to fully implementation their > DOS?) So it's been a valiant effort, but I'm content enough just being > able to move files on/off the system via disks - meanwhile we'll just hunt > for that original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 image, it surely is somewhere "out > there" eventually. > (again, notes on this are on my PC-5000 page - but the short of it is: > - MS-DOS 1.25 FORMAT.COM didn't care about version but didn't even try to > actually format (locked up) > - (Sharp) MS-DOS 2.11 FORMAT.COM was patched, and would show help on > command line arguments, but wouldn't actually run when given /2 /8 or /S, > etc. > - MS-DOS 3.30 FORMAT.COM was patched, but declared the target drive as > ASSIGNed or SUBSTed and refused to proceed > > > The disk controller interface on this system just isn't "PC Compatible" > enough. > > -SL > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 12:43=E2=80=AFPM Mike Stein = wrote: > >> Great to see my old PC5000 receiving so much loving attention; thanks >> Steve! >> >> FWIW, related to the discussion elsewhere about BBSs, that PC5000 was >> originally owned by Canada Remote Systems, a smaller Canadian version of >> Compuserve based here in Toronto, It was a fairly large (by Canadian >> standards) commercial BBS system of the 80s and 90s, noted primarily for >> its extensive file collection; I think I still have some of their >> collection disks on 8" media somewhere. >> >> On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 10:05=E2=80=AFAM Steve Lewis via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Some interesting things (on PC-5000): >>> >>> - I copied over QMATH, and old command line "parsing-calculator" I did in >>> Turbo Pascal decades ago (probably about 1992, so post MSDOS5 at least), >>> and it runs on the PC-5000! It's packaged in my "VUC" tools here (along >>> with CDIR) voidstar78/VUC4DOS: voidstar Utility Collection for (MS/DR/PC) >>> DOS (github.com) >>> That just speaks well to the PC-5000 really being MS-DOS compatible (and >>> that it ran an executable from a much later generation of MS-DOS). Note >>> that CDIR itself doesn't run on that MS-DOS 2.00 system (I suspect >>> anything >>> that "touches color" won't run, based on trying to run a few other similar >>> type things) >>> >>> - VER is saying MS-DOS 2.00, same as the startup/bootup note. Though it >>> does say the "Command v2.02" shortly after (I suspect as it is loading the >>> command.com, or in any case just prior to invoking autoexec.bat) >>> >>> - I don't have a "native" DEBUG.COM for 2.X yet (and ended up in a bad >>> time >>> that archive.org is majorly down again). And trying to run DEBUG.COM >>> from >>> 3.30 disks on the PC-5000 just says "Incorrect DOS version" (was we've >>> discussed, which as mentioned I'll have to debug the debug.com on another >>> system first to patch it) >>> >>> I'll dig into the .COM patching later, have some errands this weekend >>> first. Plus, it turns out I "blew up" my parallel port *again*. Modern >>> day, we take it for granted about USB being hot-swappable. Well, >>> parallel-ports apparently aren't that forgiving - and I keep forgetting >>> that. I've zapped two parallel cards now while swapping between parallel >>> devices. (which I'm making good progress figuring out the "retro >>> printer" >>> that will emulator old printers and let us print from old software and go >>> straight to a PDF, but still working on it) The LPT devices themselves >>> are fine, just I really heard the electrical pop and just the parallel >>> port >>> is absolutely dead (everything else seems fine though) >>> >>> More to report later, but was excited that "something from the future" >>> (qmath.exe built almost a decade after the PC-5000 was sold) worked. >>> >>> >>> -SteveL >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:35=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis wrote: >>>> >>>>> I follow all that (on the DEBUG.COM notes) and appreciate the notes - >>>> that >>>>> will save some time, I look forward to trying a few things out >>> tomorrow. >>>>> I forgot to do VER explicitly, but on boot up it is saying MS-DOS >>> 2.00. >>>>> And just now, I recalled that on github there is MS-DOS source (and >>>> bins) - >>>>> I think Dave's Garage, he recently did a video on building and booting >>>>> MS-DOS 4.0 from that source. Maybe I should use this as an excuse to >>>> try >>>>> a 2.0 build? Or least, reading through the FORMAT.ASM, I see all >>> the >>>>> DOSVER checking stuff - helps confirm patch addresses, or maybe try >>> just >>>>> recompiling that one utility without this check. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reading through the CONFIG.txt in the MS-DOS 2.0 github repo, it's >>>>> interesting near the end: (the use of forward slash instead of >>>> backslash, >>>>> ha! and just above this, the comments mention /dev/) >>>>> >>>>> "A typical configuration file might look like this: >>>>> >>>>> BUFFERS =3D 10 >>>>> FILES =3D 10 >>>>> DEVICE =3D /bin/network.sys >>>>> BREAK =3D ON >>>>> SWITCHAR =3D - >>>>> SHELL =3D a:/bin/command.com a:/bin -p" >>>> GOOD >>>> So, you should be able to patch FORMAT 2.11 ti work on the DOS version >>>> that is running. >>>> >>>> BUT, whether Format /S or SYS will work remains to be seen. >>>> >>>> >>>> I have seen cases where the opening banner does not quite match the >>> stored >>>> version number, such as 4.01 V 4.00 >>>> and a conditional jmp needs an exact match. >>>> >>>> >>>> So, definitely run VER >>>> >>>> and/or >>>> in debug A(Assemble) >>>> >>>> MOV AH,30 >>>> INT 21 >>>> INT 3 ; ends program and displays registers >>>> >>>> and see what it shows in AX >>>> (running that in CMD of my Windows 7 gives 0005 (5.00)!) >>>> >>>> >>>> One of the early homework assignments when I taught PC Assembly was to >>> go >>>> into DEBUG and patch LINK.EXE and EXE2BIN.EXE to eliminate DOD version >>>> checking. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >>>> --===============5387221639518358374==-- From r_a_feldman@hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 18:50:17 2024 From: Robert Feldman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 18:50:10 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4664109479020910170==" --===============4664109479020910170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78 https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?unlo= cked_article_code=3D1.UU4.nswM.540OUXuySX84&smid=3Durl-share --===============4664109479020910170==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 23 19:22:08 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 12:22:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CIA1PR02MB96133DC800789558CC251B70B54D2=40IA1PR02MB?= =?utf-8?q?9613=2Enamprd02=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1848190130760348613==" --===============1848190130760348613== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: > Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78 > > https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un= locked_article_code=3D1.UU4.nswM.540OUXuySX84&smid=3Durl-share Thank you for sharing that. The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to=20 have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about=20 any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does not=20 seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it=20 "resembles Facebook". "Early Visionary of Social Media" It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS ("a=20 forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook") A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and even=20 there, only about its use on CBBS: "In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer=20 files across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S." . . .=20 "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1848190130760348613==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 19:40:47 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:40:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0534234595703152250==" --===============0534234595703152250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Author is a general assignment reporter. Not young judging from his mugshot. = Wouldn=E2=80=99t expect him to cover XM modem too much as that=E2=80=99s for = very technical people and wouldn=E2=80=99t be relevant to his article. If Dav= id Pogue wrote the article then perhaps All in all a very good article what did you say? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2024, at 12:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78 >>=20 >> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?u= nlocked_article_code=3D1.UU4.nswM.540OUXuySX84&smid=3Durl-share >=20 > Thank you for sharing that. >=20 >=20 > The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to = have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about any = computer to computer connections other than internet. He does not seem to kn= ow about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it "resembles Facebook". > "Early Visionary of Social Media" >=20 >=20 > It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS ("a f= orerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook") >=20 > A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and even = there, only about its use on CBBS: >=20 > "In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer file= s across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S." > . . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM." >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0534234595703152250==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 19:57:24 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:57:17 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21810612A54E9983D6F9666AE44D2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6164525987246691065==" --===============6164525987246691065== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phone caught the =E2=80=9CWhat did you say=E2=80=9D phrase. Please disregard! Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2024, at 12:40, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAuthor is a general assignment reporter. Not young judging from hi= s mugshot. Wouldn=E2=80=99t expect him to cover XM modem too much as that=E2= =80=99s for very technical people and wouldn=E2=80=99t be relevant to his art= icle. If David Pogue wrote the article then perhaps > All in all a very good article what did you say? >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 12:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78 >>>=20 >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?= unlocked_article_code=3D1.UU4.nswM.540OUXuySX84&smid=3Durl-share >>=20 >> Thank you for sharing that. >>=20 >>=20 >> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to= have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about any= computer to computer connections other than internet. He does not seem to k= now about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it "resembles Facebook= ". >> "Early Visionary of Social Media" >>=20 >>=20 >> It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS ("a = forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook") >>=20 >> A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and even= there, only about its use on CBBS: >>=20 >> "In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer fil= es across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S." >> . . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM." >>=20 >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6164525987246691065==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Wed Oct 23 20:08:50 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:08:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8450575365417412916==" --===============8450575365417412916== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 at 16:00, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: > > > Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78 > > > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un= locked_article_code=3D1.UU4.nswM.540OUXuySX84&smid=3Durl-share > > Thank you for sharing that. > > > The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to > have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about > any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does not > seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it > "resembles Facebook". > I cannot help but agree. This is a piece written by someone who is clearly unfamiliar with any sort of computer networking before the '90s, and they were obviously not willing to do any sort of research into contemporary (in the '70s) computer culture either from a business or hobbyist perspective. I suppose that I might have expected something more of a very high profile newspaper, but at the same time I'm sure this is a "drive-by" piece for the author - checks all the boxes, fulfills all of the requirements that might be asked of the dilettante readership, and it's on to the next surface level treatment of someone who probably made a real impact. -Henry --===============8450575365417412916==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 20:15:15 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:15:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7506478516975441759==" --===============7506478516975441759== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to respectfully disagree. This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete histor= y of his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a major ne= wspaper where space is limited. I think the author did do some rather deep in= vestigation. He did talk to Ward Christiansen=E2=80=98s brother for remembran= ces and information. =20 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2024, at 13:09, Henry Bent via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, 23 Oct 2024 at 16:00, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78 >>>=20 >>>=20 >> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?u= nlocked_article_code=3D1.UU4.nswM.540OUXuySX84&smid=3Durl-share >>=20 >> Thank you for sharing that. >>=20 >>=20 >> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to >> have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about >> any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does not >> seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it >> "resembles Facebook". >>=20 >=20 > I cannot help but agree. This is a piece written by someone who is clearly > unfamiliar with any sort of computer networking before the '90s, and they > were obviously not willing to do any sort of research into contemporary (in > the '70s) computer culture either from a business or hobbyist perspective. > I suppose that I might have expected something more of a very high profile > newspaper, but at the same time I'm sure this is a "drive-by" piece for the > author - checks all the boxes, fulfills all of the requirements that might > be asked of the dilettante readership, and it's on to the next surface > level treatment of someone who probably made a real impact. >=20 > -Henry --===============7506478516975441759==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Wed Oct 23 20:20:57 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:20:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21815693DE88E57FF8FE7AD7E44D2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5821769979209260437==" --===============5821769979209260437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The author did their best to pad the piece up to length by doing the least amount of work possible - interview immediate family and the "standout names" who responded in a timely manner - and then that's it. On to the next one. -Henry On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 at 16:15, Wayne S wrote: > I have to respectfully disagree. > This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete > history of his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a > major newspaper where space is limited. I think the author did do some > rather deep investigation. He did talk to Ward Christiansen=E2=80=98s broth= er for > remembrances and information. > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 23, 2024, at 13:09, Henry Bent via cctalk > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, 23 Oct 2024 at 16:00, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78 > >>> > >>> > >> > https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un= locked_article_code=3D1.UU4.nswM.540OUXuySX84&smid=3Durl-share > >> > >> Thank you for sharing that. > >> > >> > >> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed > to > >> have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about > >> any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does not > >> seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it > >> "resembles Facebook". > >> > > > > I cannot help but agree. This is a piece written by someone who is > clearly > > unfamiliar with any sort of computer networking before the '90s, and they > > were obviously not willing to do any sort of research into contemporary > (in > > the '70s) computer culture either from a business or hobbyist > perspective. > > I suppose that I might have expected something more of a very high > profile > > newspaper, but at the same time I'm sure this is a "drive-by" piece for > the > > author - checks all the boxes, fulfills all of the requirements that > might > > be asked of the dilettante readership, and it's on to the next surface > > level treatment of someone who probably made a real impact. > > > > -Henry > --===============5821769979209260437==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 23 21:09:57 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 14:09:51 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21815693DE88E57FF8FE7AD7E44D2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3698896345774361926==" --===============3698896345774361926== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > I have to respectfully disagree. > This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete hist= ory of his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a major = newspaper where space is limited. I think the author did do some rather deep = investigation. He did talk to Ward Christiansen=E2=80=98s brother for remembr= ances and information. We can get along without agreeing :-) If you will pardon some exaggeration to make clear my point, it is somewhat like going into detail about Henry Ford being co-founder of=20 Kingsford charcoal, and then only two mentions, in passing, of making=20 cars. :-) Yes, I admit that is an exaggerated analogy. CBBS WAS extremely important and significant. But, I think that XMODEM had even more long-term impact. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3698896345774361926==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:23:31 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 21:23:17 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3658491803465491213==" --===============3658491803465491213== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do understand that opinion in and i agree. It=E2=80=99s that having worked = for major newspapers for 35 years, i know the way stories are written and how= much work goes into them and how much editing and fact checking is done. The= re is only so much space for words and can=E2=80=99t be covered, so the writ= er and copyeditor have to trim the article. Xmodem, while important, is not s= omething the average reader would know or remember much about, but a lot of p= eople would remember BBS systems since they were all over the news back then. If you were to write an obit of Edwin deCastro, who recently died, what accom= plishments would you emphasize?=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2024, at 14:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> I have to respectfully disagree. >> This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete his= tory of his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a major= newspaper where space is limited. I think the author did do some rather deep= investigation. He did talk to Ward Christiansen=E2=80=98s brother for rememb= rances and information. >=20 > We can get along without agreeing :-) >=20 > If you will pardon some exaggeration to make clear my point, > it is somewhat like going into detail about Henry Ford being co-founder of = Kingsford charcoal, and then only two mentions, in passing, of making cars. = :-) >=20 > Yes, I admit that is an exaggerated analogy. > CBBS WAS extremely important and significant. > But, I think that XMODEM had even more long-term impact. >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3658491803465491213==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:26:09 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 21:26:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21815AE545B95187612FF5FCE44D2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1857241878734375612==" --===============1857241878734375612== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One last thing=E2=80=A6 Most news organizations have a death file for famous people. Their obits have already been written.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2024, at 14:23, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI do understand that opinion in and i agree. It=E2=80=99s that hav= ing worked for major newspapers for 35 years, i know the way stories are writ= ten and how much work goes into them and how much editing and fact checking i= s done. There is only so much space for words and can=E2=80=99t be covered, = so the writer and copyeditor have to trim the article. Xmodem, while importan= t, is not something the average reader would know or remember much about, but= a lot of people would remember BBS systems since they were all over the news= back then. > If you were to write an obit of Edwin deCastro, who recently died, what acc= omplishments would you emphasize? >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 14:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>> I have to respectfully disagree. >>> This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete hi= story of his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a majo= r newspaper where space is limited. I think the author did do some rather dee= p investigation. He did talk to Ward Christiansen=E2=80=98s brother for remem= brances and information. >>=20 >> We can get along without agreeing :-) >>=20 >> If you will pardon some exaggeration to make clear my point, >> it is somewhat like going into detail about Henry Ford being co-founder of= Kingsford charcoal, and then only two mentions, in passing, of making cars. = :-) >>=20 >> Yes, I admit that is an exaggerated analogy. >> CBBS WAS extremely important and significant. >> But, I think that XMODEM had even more long-term impact. >>=20 >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1857241878734375612==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 23 21:57:02 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 14:56:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181837056CE083F330A7D83E44D2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7997331586837265854==" --===============7997331586837265854== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good point I don't see much impact of that on this one. Other than editing in his=20 brother's statement that it was a heart attack, I don't see anything=20 obvious in this about whether it was pre-written long ago, or freshly=20 written. (XMODEM was already extremely popular 40 years ago) Would the fact that NYT took 10 days before publishing it be an=20 indication that it was NOT previously written? I would have thought that=20 the reason for a "death file" was so that an obituary could immediately=20 follow the news. I don't know much of anything about Edson de Castro, other than Data=20 General Nova. But I like to think that if I were tasked to write about him, I would ask=20 around [to people such as you? :-)] and try to find out more about the=20 other things that he did (such as working on PDP-8). But, I don't have your newspaper experience, so maybe that would be=20 unrealistic. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S wrote: > One last thing=E2=80=A6 > Most news organizations have a death file for famous people. > Their obits have already been written. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 23, 2024, at 14:23, Wayne S wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFI do understand that opinion in and i agree. It=E2=80=99s that ha= ving worked for major newspapers for 35 years, i know the way stories are wri= tten and how much work goes into them and how much editing and fact checking = is done. There is only so much space for words and can=E2=80=99t be covered, = so the writer and copyeditor have to trim the article. Xmodem, while importa= nt, is not something the average reader would know or remember much about, bu= t a lot of people would remember BBS systems since they were all over the new= s back then. >> If you were to write an obit of Edwin deCastro, who recently died, what ac= complishments would you emphasize? >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 14:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>>> I have to respectfully disagree. >>>> This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete h= istory of his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a maj= or newspaper where space is limited. I think the author did do some rather de= ep investigation. He did talk to Ward Christiansen=E2=80=98s brother for reme= mbrances and information. >>> >>> We can get along without agreeing :-) >>> >>> If you will pardon some exaggeration to make clear my point, >>> it is somewhat like going into detail about Henry Ford being co-founder o= f Kingsford charcoal, and then only two mentions, in passing, of making cars.= :-) >>> >>> Yes, I admit that is an exaggerated analogy. >>> CBBS WAS extremely important and significant. >>> But, I think that XMODEM had even more long-term impact. >>> >>> -- >>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7997331586837265854==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Wed Oct 23 22:07:28 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 23:07:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5003418094076390613==" --===============5003418094076390613== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > the vicinity of the area at least. On the positive, my thinking is that > since the battery is "inverted" from normal and pointing towards the ground > - if it does leak, it'll just leak into the plastic base of the system. Mind the capillary action though! The stuff that leaks is nasty. Maciej --===============5003418094076390613==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 23 22:09:07 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 15:09:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <342e79be-4dba-4a65-965b-1829f8ae0b2d@email.android.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0581899763697001088==" --===============0581899763697001088== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > I agree with you but phrased differently. XMODEM is ubiquitous but CBBS cr= eated a > totally new way of sharing information and is the forerunner of everything = from > CompuServe to the internet, instant messaging and even social media. >=20 > Most people reading an obit would not appreciate the significance of a data= transfer > protocol however the first "social media" type message system they would un= derstand. Community Memory (Lee Felsenstein, Ephrem Lipkin, et al) preceded it by=20 about five years. BUT, CBBS was the first with dial-up access [from home], rather than=20 dedicated publicly available terminals. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0581899763697001088==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Oct 23 22:10:33 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:10:23 -0500 Message-ID: <263802185.199718.1729721423997@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2683071397645930159==" --===============2683071397645930159== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable for the "unwashed masses", cbbs was like a blog, and revolutionary. and somet= hing they can relate to people send photos on emails, but file transfer with xmodem was only meaningf= ul for computer nerds. business did file transfer more like faxing. special= ized devices called each other, maybe even manually answered, and used dedica= ted protocols for those devices. 
--Carey
--===============2683071397645930159==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 23:17:45 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 23:17:37 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <263802185.199718.1729721423997@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7853141639838268820==" --===============7853141639838268820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, probably there was no death file for Ward so the writer had to start fr= om scratch. Associated Press has a deaths wire where they put up obits of people of inter= est. I=E2=80=99d assume that=E2=80=99s how NYT even knew about Ward. It=E2=80= =99s interesting to me that they bothered to put up his obit as he is mildly = famous even to tech folks. They might have seen the chatter about him and dec= ided based upon that. 10 days might be because that=E2=80=99s when they had e= nough space in the newspaper or maybe they wanted it to run in the science or= technology page which is not run every day. I wouldn=E2=80=99t be asked because i=E2=80=99m not a source for anything. I only knew about Edwins passing from other people on the Classic Computer di= scord. Death files have fact checked items and a summary obituary written usually fo= r someone older like both Clintons, George Bush, Donald Trump, Jack Nicholson= , Cher, etc. They are updated from time to time with new items. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2024, at 15:10, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFfor the "unwashed masses", cbbs was like a blog, and revolutionary= . and something they can relate to >=20 > people send photos on emails, but file transfer with xmodem was only meanin= gful for computer nerds. business did file transfer more like faxing. speci= alized devices called each other, maybe even manually answered, and used dedi= cated protocols for those devices. >=20 > 
--Carey
--===============7853141639838268820==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 00:39:53 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:39:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4168648304914481036==" --===============4168648304914481036== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/23/2024 3:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78 >> >> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?u= nlocked_article_code=3D1.UU4.nswM.540OUXuySX84&smid=3Durl-share >=20 > Thank you for sharing that. >=20 >=20 > The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed=20 > to have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor=20 > about any computer to computer connections other than internet.=C2=A0 He do= es=20 > not seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it=20 > "resembles Facebook". > "Early Visionary of Social Media" >=20 >=20 > It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS=20 > ("a forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook") >=20 > A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and=20 > even there, only about its use on CBBS: >=20 > "In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer=20 > files across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S." > . . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM." >=20 Which had already been done with UUCP in 1976. bill' --===============4168648304914481036==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Oct 24 02:26:05 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:17:57 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21815AE545B95187612FF5FCE44D2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5056955043924544117==" --===============5056955043924544117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/23/24 14:23, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > If you were to write an obit of Edwin deCastro, who recently died, what acc= omplishments would you emphasize?=20 Did Edson de Castro have a brother named Edwin? --Chuck --===============5056955043924544117==-- From doug@doughq.com Thu Oct 24 02:36:35 2024 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 13:36:17 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CIA2P221MB1468333A9C7743524D475BF5ED4E2=40IA2P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1468=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6532874342671318701==" --===============6532874342671318701== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was unobtanium in the early computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer. It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's. I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows' Unheard of - I did a heap of learning. That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991) into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10 1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files. So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 11:39, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 10/23/2024 3:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78 > >> > >> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html= ?unlocked_article_code=3D1.UU4.nswM.540OUXuySX84&smid=3Durl-share > > > > Thank you for sharing that. > > > > > > The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed > > to have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor > > about any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does > > not seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it > > "resembles Facebook". > > "Early Visionary of Social Media" > > > > > > It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS > > ("a forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook") > > > > A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and > > even there, only about its use on CBBS: > > > > "In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer > > files across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S." > > . . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM." > > > > Which had already been done with UUCP in 1976. > > bill' > --===============6532874342671318701==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Oct 24 02:46:11 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:46:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6953136341808422640==" --===============6953136341808422640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was unobtanium in the early > computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer. > > It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a > Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's. > > I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from > my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during > the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed > and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows' Unheard of - I > did a heap of learning. > > That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became > accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991) > into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my > first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10 > 1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files. > > So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles. Very slightly before that (not by much), Xenix (Unix without the trademark royalties, and peddled by MICROS~1) could run on a 80286. Bill Gates said that the 80286 was "brain dead". (possibly due to the difficulty of switching back and forth to "protected mode") The 80386, and even the 80386SX, was a very welcome step. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6953136341808422640==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 24 02:58:05 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:57:54 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6396789917104049189==" --===============6396789917104049189== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-10-23 8:36 p.m., Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was unobtanium in the early > computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer. > > It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a > Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's. > > I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from > my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during > the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed > and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows' Unheard of - I > did a heap of learning. > > That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became > accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991) > into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my > first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10 > 1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files. > > So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles. > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug(a)doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > XMODEM and BBS's were nice for the times, but for us people down on the farm here 6&*(((&^%%&* DANG CROW's on phone line again (*0^&^ did not have much impact with with the high price of long distance phone lines and any dial up service. The fact that most BBS's only had one or two lines did not help the matter at 110 baud. What was important it stated the concept of networking data, for the general public, and public access. --===============6396789917104049189==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 07:10:27 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:10:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <61883f94-5f1f-4588-8c22-9ff9e651f9b0@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0664731745782258936==" --===============0664731745782258936== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thomas, That does indeed look like exactly what this system needs - thank you for making that available. And in multiple formats - I do have an HxC device using HFE images (I never fully understood why they are so relatively large, by a 3X factor). But I think the IMD versions is what I'll work with to reconstruct a physical disk. I look forward to trying these out this weekend! From the HFE image - I see it contains a FORMAT.COM (and a MASM.EXE!!), but does not have SYS.COM or expected hidden files (IO.SYS, MSDOS.SYS). So that makes me a little suspect on whether these will be bootable images. We'll see what options the FORMAT.COM offers, and there is a SYS.COM on the bubble cartridges - I'm still suspect on if the system will boot up to either a 320KB or 360KB disk. But we'll try a few things out and see (including RECOVER.COM!?) -SteveL On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 1:50=E2=80=AFPM osi.superboard via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > I think I can help you. > I have a PC-5000 disk image of a double-sided 5.25 disk (360kb format) > called CE-101FA on my Google Drive. > > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qo6A3ZzkOHzxh5M5XEjqcKPP2F63Zi9P?us= p=3Dsharing > > The images were created with a Greazweasel. For test read twice, but > identical in both cases. > The disk files can be found in the Disk_Image directory. Including > Format and Basic and Macro Assembler and so on. Also various image > formats for creating disks. > > Enjoy > > Thomas > > On 20.10.2024 08:03, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Mike!! Oh I was so nervous taking it apart - I was thinking of > you, > > and worrying about how I'm probably going to end up having to sadly > explain > > why this system doesn't work anymore. But 'lo and behold, I did manage > to > > get it back together! (notes are in my PC-5000 page linked earlier, > which > > is now a bit long winded for a single page - I'll spit it out > eventually). > > > > > > I was trying to go after the CMOS battery, or its equivalent - but wow, > > Sharp made that very difficult. As you'll see in the photos, the > > component side of the mainboard is actually pointed down. Since this is > > still very much a working system, I didn't feel comfortable completely > > disassembling it - you have to get the entire mainboard out. But I got > to > > the vicinity of the area at least. On the positive, my thinking is that > > since the battery is "inverted" from normal and pointing towards the > ground > > - if it does leak, it'll just leak into the plastic base of the system. > > > > With the disk drives, I can now get new software onto the system more > > easily. But, looks like I'll have to give up on making a boot disk > floppy > > for the system. I've added a ton of notes to my PC-5000 page about it. > > > > > > @Fred Cisin - I did manage to digest and follow your DEBUG.COM advise, > and > > it all did work (in getting past "incorrect DOS version"). But when it > > came to the business of actually executing a format, they still did not > > work. As others have suspect, we're just going to need to find that > > original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 boot disk someday. In poking around the > MS-DOS > > 2.00 source code on github, it actually doesn't have a pre-built > FORMAT.COM > > - instead it has a FORMAT.DOC file that describes notes on what is > expected > > for an OEM vendor to implement to support doing a format. While we did > > finally find a format that allows SYS.COM to work, it's still > mysterious on > > why the (bootable) bubble memory report 6 hidden files, but a SYS'd disk > is > > only reporting 2 hidden files (I think someone else here did cover that, > in > > suggesting some vendors did need extra files to fully implementation > their > > DOS?) So it's been a valiant effort, but I'm content enough just being > > able to move files on/off the system via disks - meanwhile we'll just > hunt > > for that original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 image, it surely is somewhere "out > > there" eventually. > > (again, notes on this are on my PC-5000 page - but the short of it is: > > - MS-DOS 1.25 FORMAT.COM didn't care about version but didn't even try > to > > actually format (locked up) > > - (Sharp) MS-DOS 2.11 FORMAT.COM was patched, and would show help on > > command line arguments, but wouldn't actually run when given /2 /8 or /S, > > etc. > > - MS-DOS 3.30 FORMAT.COM was patched, but declared the target drive as > > ASSIGNed or SUBSTed and refused to proceed > > > > > > The disk controller interface on this system just isn't "PC Compatible" > > enough. > > > > -SL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 12:43=E2=80=AFPM Mike Stein wrote: > > > >> Great to see my old PC5000 receiving so much loving attention; thanks > >> Steve! > >> > >> FWIW, related to the discussion elsewhere about BBSs, that PC5000 was > >> originally owned by Canada Remote Systems, a smaller Canadian version of > >> Compuserve based here in Toronto, It was a fairly large (by Canadian > >> standards) commercial BBS system of the 80s and 90s, noted primarily for > >> its extensive file collection; I think I still have some of their > >> collection disks on 8" media somewhere. > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 10:05=E2=80=AFAM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Some interesting things (on PC-5000): > >>> > >>> - I copied over QMATH, and old command line "parsing-calculator" I did > in > >>> Turbo Pascal decades ago (probably about 1992, so post MSDOS5 at > least), > >>> and it runs on the PC-5000! It's packaged in my "VUC" tools here > (along > >>> with CDIR) voidstar78/VUC4DOS: voidstar Utility Collection for > (MS/DR/PC) > >>> DOS (github.com) > >>> That just speaks well to the PC-5000 really being MS-DOS compatible > (and > >>> that it ran an executable from a much later generation of MS-DOS). > Note > >>> that CDIR itself doesn't run on that MS-DOS 2.00 system (I suspect > >>> anything > >>> that "touches color" won't run, based on trying to run a few other > similar > >>> type things) > >>> > >>> - VER is saying MS-DOS 2.00, same as the startup/bootup note. Though > it > >>> does say the "Command v2.02" shortly after (I suspect as it is loading > the > >>> command.com, or in any case just prior to invoking autoexec.bat) > >>> > >>> - I don't have a "native" DEBUG.COM for 2.X yet (and ended up in a bad > >>> time > >>> that archive.org is majorly down again). And trying to run DEBUG.COM > >>> from > >>> 3.30 disks on the PC-5000 just says "Incorrect DOS version" (was we've > >>> discussed, which as mentioned I'll have to debug the debug.com on > another > >>> system first to patch it) > >>> > >>> I'll dig into the .COM patching later, have some errands this weekend > >>> first. Plus, it turns out I "blew up" my parallel port *again*. > Modern > >>> day, we take it for granted about USB being hot-swappable. Well, > >>> parallel-ports apparently aren't that forgiving - and I keep forgetting > >>> that. I've zapped two parallel cards now while swapping between > parallel > >>> devices. (which I'm making good progress figuring out the "retro > >>> printer" > >>> that will emulator old printers and let us print from old software and > go > >>> straight to a PDF, but still working on it) The LPT devices > themselves > >>> are fine, just I really heard the electrical pop and just the parallel > >>> port > >>> is absolutely dead (everything else seems fine though) > >>> > >>> More to report later, but was excited that "something from the future" > >>> (qmath.exe built almost a decade after the PC-5000 was sold) worked. > >>> > >>> > >>> -SteveL > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:35=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I follow all that (on the DEBUG.COM notes) and appreciate the notes > - > >>>> that > >>>>> will save some time, I look forward to trying a few things out > >>> tomorrow. > >>>>> I forgot to do VER explicitly, but on boot up it is saying MS-DOS > >>> 2.00. > >>>>> And just now, I recalled that on github there is MS-DOS source (and > >>>> bins) - > >>>>> I think Dave's Garage, he recently did a video on building and > booting > >>>>> MS-DOS 4.0 from that source. Maybe I should use this as an excuse > to > >>>> try > >>>>> a 2.0 build? Or least, reading through the FORMAT.ASM, I see all > >>> the > >>>>> DOSVER checking stuff - helps confirm patch addresses, or maybe try > >>> just > >>>>> recompiling that one utility without this check. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Reading through the CONFIG.txt in the MS-DOS 2.0 github repo, it's > >>>>> interesting near the end: (the use of forward slash instead of > >>>> backslash, > >>>>> ha! and just above this, the comments mention /dev/) > >>>>> > >>>>> "A typical configuration file might look like this: > >>>>> > >>>>> BUFFERS =3D 10 > >>>>> FILES =3D 10 > >>>>> DEVICE =3D /bin/network.sys > >>>>> BREAK =3D ON > >>>>> SWITCHAR =3D - > >>>>> SHELL =3D a:/bin/command.com a:/bin -p" > >>>> GOOD > >>>> So, you should be able to patch FORMAT 2.11 ti work on the DOS version > >>>> that is running. > >>>> > >>>> BUT, whether Format /S or SYS will work remains to be seen. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I have seen cases where the opening banner does not quite match the > >>> stored > >>>> version number, such as 4.01 V 4.00 > >>>> and a conditional jmp needs an exact match. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> So, definitely run VER > >>>> > >>>> and/or > >>>> in debug A(Assemble) > >>>> > >>>> MOV AH,30 > >>>> INT 21 > >>>> INT 3 ; ends program and displays registers > >>>> > >>>> and see what it shows in AX > >>>> (running that in CMD of my Windows 7 gives 0005 (5.00)!) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> One of the early homework assignments when I taught PC Assembly was to > >>> go > >>>> into DEBUG and patch LINK.EXE and EXE2BIN.EXE to eliminate DOD version > >>>> checking. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > >>>> > --===============0664731745782258936==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 08:57:01 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 03:56:45 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4428950764010794738==" --===============4428950764010794738== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sad to hear about the confirmation and circumstances of his passing. I had been hoping it wasn't true (a different Ward or something), but I see now a week ago Als Geek Lab already put a tribute video up (and included a section about xmodem). And of course the NYT article now. I hope any surviving family will keep in mind that the CBBS equipment is historical - don't toss it! (I think it is a "homebrew IMSAI 8080" base). When I spoke with Ward last year, one of the questions I had was whether he still had that equipment - and he did say Yes. I showed him a picture, to make sure we were talking about the same thing (it's at the bottom of the 1978 column in the final version of my "domesticating the computer" poster). It's possible he mis-remembered or I misunderstood, but I'd like to think it's still sitting there next to his chair. I mentioned previously here that at one VCF last year, I asked Ward to sign my ComputerLib book. He also signed a poster for my daughter. I'm not big into sports or PopCulture, but I always thought it would be more meaningful to get autographs from famous scientists and engineers. I'm not sure if images can (or should) be shared here (attachments) - and it's just a small thing really. But if anyone interested, here's an image of his signing at the bottom of this page: https://voidstar.blog/2024/10/24/ward-christensen-brief-notes/ A while back I recall trying to find the CBBS source code. I don't think the original-original is still around, the earliest was maybe a 1979 or 1980 update to it. Well - I think I have my topic now for VCF next year.... not about BBS's. But I'm thinking maybe to cover more about the ComputerLib book itself (which I only very lightly touched on earlier this year). It has no Table of Contents, nor an index, so it really is a bit of a hard read (that, and my eyes vs its font) - eveni digitally scanning it is tough. Mine's one of the later 1987 revised editions. As someone mentioned, it probably has a section about Ward in there - I'll keep looking through it. - SteveL (v*) On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 4:10=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > I have to respectfully disagree. > > This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete > history of his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a > major newspaper where space is limited. I think the author did do some > rather deep investigation. He did talk to Ward Christiansen=E2=80=98s broth= er for > remembrances and information. > > We can get along without agreeing :-) > > If you will pardon some exaggeration to make clear my point, > it is somewhat like going into detail about Henry Ford being co-founder of > Kingsford charcoal, and then only two mentions, in passing, of making > cars. :-) > > Yes, I admit that is an exaggerated analogy. > CBBS WAS extremely important and significant. > But, I think that XMODEM had even more long-term impact. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4428950764010794738==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 11:38:50 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 07:38:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181EDE301F67135960D3528E44D2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7772995967411408390==" --===============7772995967411408390== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Associated Press has a deaths wire where they put up obits of people of int= erest. I=E2=80=99d assume that=E2=80=99s how NYT even knew about Ward. It=E2= =80=99s interesting to me that they bothered to put up his obit as he is mild= ly famous even to tech folks. They might have seen the chatter about him and = decided based upon that. 10 days might be because that=E2=80=99s when they ha= d enough space in the newspaper or maybe they wanted it to run in the science= or technology page which is not run every day. Actually I posted the ArsTechnica article in one of the New York Times internal chat channels on Oct 16th, I was hoping someone would pick this up. I did the same when Chuck Peddle died. I work for the Times and there are a few people here who appreciate old technology. I don't have any pull, but some of the writers are serious techies. As for the article, this is the New York Times and not ArsTechnica. The readers are different and the writers have to find ways to relate. Depending on your perspective, BBSes were the social systems of the time. I can see the link between them. I thought it was well written and regardless of what you think of the Times, it is nice to see Ward Christensen remembered with a proper obituary. On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 10:55=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > Fred, probably there was no death file for Ward so the writer had to start = from scratch. > Associated Press has a deaths wire where they put up obits of people of int= erest. I=E2=80=99d assume that=E2=80=99s how NYT even knew about Ward. It=E2= =80=99s interesting to me that they bothered to put up his obit as he is mild= ly famous even to tech folks. They might have seen the chatter about him and = decided based upon that. 10 days might be because that=E2=80=99s when they ha= d enough space in the newspaper or maybe they wanted it to run in the science= or technology page which is not run every day. > I wouldn=E2=80=99t be asked because i=E2=80=99m not a source for anything. > I only knew about Edwins passing from other people on the Classic Computer = discord. > Death files have fact checked items and a summary obituary written usually = for someone older like both Clintons, George Bush, Donald Trump, Jack Nichols= on, Cher, etc. They are updated from time to time with new items. > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 23, 2024, at 15:10, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFfor the "unwashed masses", cbbs was like a blog, and revolutiona= ry. and something they can relate to > > > > people send photos on emails, but file transfer with xmodem was only mean= ingful for computer nerds. business did file transfer more like faxing. spe= cialized devices called each other, maybe even manually answered, and used de= dicated protocols for those devices. > > > > 
--Carey
--===============7772995967411408390==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 13:10:33 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] RQDX3 Formatter Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 09:10:17 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1591565170294629038==" --===============1591565170294629038== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, Does anyone have the source for the ZRQCxx formatter? I have found a pdf for ZRQCE0 but am curious if the actual source code for that one, or ZRQCH0 is available? I'd like to make some changes to the UIT table. -Peter --===============1591565170294629038==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 16:14:21 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:14:13 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5333102928784997138==" --===============5333102928784997138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I thought it was a good article too. Christian, what do you do at the Times? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 24, 2024, at 04:38, Christian Liendo wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> Associated Press has a deaths wire where they put up obits of people of in= terest. I=E2=80=99d assume that=E2=80=99s how NYT even knew about Ward. It=E2= =80=99s interesting to me that they bothered to put up his obit as he is mild= ly famous even to tech folks. They might have seen the chatter about him and = decided based upon that. 10 days might be because that=E2=80=99s when they ha= d enough space in the newspaper or maybe they wanted it to run in the science= or technology page which is not run every day. >=20 > Actually I posted the ArsTechnica article in one of the New York Times > internal chat channels on Oct 16th, I was hoping someone would pick > this up. I did the same when Chuck Peddle died. >=20 > I work for the Times and there are a few people here who appreciate > old technology. I don't have any pull, but some of the writers are > serious techies. >=20 > As for the article, this is the New York Times and not ArsTechnica. > The readers are different and the writers have to find ways to relate. > Depending on your perspective, BBSes were the social systems of the > time. I can see the link between them. >=20 > I thought it was well written and regardless of what you think of the > Times, it is nice to see Ward Christensen remembered with a proper > obituary. >=20 >=20 >> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 10:55=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >> Fred, probably there was no death file for Ward so the writer had to start= from scratch. >> Associated Press has a deaths wire where they put up obits of people of in= terest. I=E2=80=99d assume that=E2=80=99s how NYT even knew about Ward. It=E2= =80=99s interesting to me that they bothered to put up his obit as he is mild= ly famous even to tech folks. They might have seen the chatter about him and = decided based upon that. 10 days might be because that=E2=80=99s when they ha= d enough space in the newspaper or maybe they wanted it to run in the science= or technology page which is not run every day. >> I wouldn=E2=80=99t be asked because i=E2=80=99m not a source for anything. >> I only knew about Edwins passing from other people on the Classic Computer= discord. >> Death files have fact checked items and a summary obituary written usually= for someone older like both Clintons, George Bush, Donald Trump, Jack Nichol= son, Cher, etc. They are updated from time to time with new items. >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 15:10, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFfor the "unwashed masses", cbbs was like a blog, and revolutiona= ry. and something they can relate to >>>=20 >>> people send photos on emails, but file transfer with xmodem was only mean= ingful for computer nerds. business did file transfer more like faxing. spe= cialized devices called each other, maybe even manually answered, and used de= dicated protocols for those devices. >>>=20 >>> 
--Carey
--===============5333102928784997138==-- From mem@schmem.com Thu Oct 24 17:15:13 2024 From: "Mark E. Mallett" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 13:08:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218168ACF5AD76BACE882897E44E2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1903345919241680594==" --===============1903345919241680594== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another reference: Randy Cassingham's "Honorary UnSubscribe" page https://honoraryunsubscribe.com/ward-christensen/ -mm- (folding it into this thread even though it's not related to the NY Times) --===============1903345919241680594==-- From joe@barrera.org Thu Oct 24 17:49:57 2024 From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 10:49:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4066400209910575861==" --===============4066400209910575861== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to > have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-) --===============4066400209910575861==-- From brain@jbrain.com Thu Oct 24 17:51:39 2024 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 12:46:32 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218168ACF5AD76BACE882897E44E2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3982361028424648517==" --===============3982361028424648517== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/24/2024 11:14 AM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > I thought it was a good article too. To add to the chorus, I concur. I think the writer did an excellent job capturing some of the cool pieces of Ward's impact on the tech world and made it relatable to the general public. We should encourage writers like this one in composing pieces like this. Jim --===============3982361028424648517==-- From jacob.ritorto@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 18:29:34 2024 From: Jacob Ritorto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RQDX3 Formatter Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 14:28:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5126729663032329710==" --===============5126729663032329710== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't have the source, but I had great success octal-patching my copy a few years ago, made it work with a Maxtor xt-11something instead of the real rd54 / xt-2190. I'll reply again if I can find the instructions for doing it. Just followed recipe from some guy's website and it worked perfect. On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 09:20, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Does anyone have the source for the ZRQCxx formatter? I have found a pdf > for ZRQCE0 but am curious if the actual source code for that one, or ZRQCH0 > is available? I'd like to make some changes to the UIT table. > > -Peter > --===============5126729663032329710==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 19:01:44 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 12:00:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2156679133482320280==" --===============2156679133482320280== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I went and read the obit to see what all the hubbubb is aboot. Seems like a nice tribute to me. Naming CBBS as the progenitor to "Reddit, TikTok, Facebook and YouTube, as well as countless internet file-sharing services" is a Big Deal and a high honor (although perhaps not entirely accurate). Right in the middle of the obituary I find this: *"How The Times decides who gets an obituary: There is no formula, scoring system or checklist in determining the news value of a life. We investigate, research and ask around before settling on our subjects. If you know of someone who might be a candidate for a Times obituary, please suggest it here."* This part made me chuckle: *"Mr. Suess suggested they call the new system “the Computer Elites’ Communication Project,” or C.E.C.,"* I love the grandiosity. Sellam P.S. Ward was dead 2 days before his body was found, which makes me sad. A reminder to check on your older friends right away if you don't hear from them when you should've. --===============2156679133482320280==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 19:17:45 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 19:17:37 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6629905053634258658==" --===============6629905053634258658== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They must=E2=80=99ve inserted it after i read the obit, because it wasn=E2=80= =99t there. Maybe Christian made them aware of the fuss. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 24, 2024, at 12:01, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI went and read the obit to see what all the hubbubb is aboot. Se= ems like > a nice tribute to me. Naming CBBS as the progenitor to "Reddit, TikTok, > Facebook and YouTube, as well as countless internet file-sharing services" > is a Big Deal and a high honor (although perhaps not entirely accurate). >=20 > Right in the middle of the obituary I find this: >=20 > *"How The Times decides who gets an obituary: There is no formula, scoring > system or checklist in determining the news value of a life. We > investigate, research and ask around before settling on our subjects. If > you know of someone who might be a candidate for a Times obituary, please > suggest it here."* >=20 > This part made me chuckle: >=20 > *"Mr. Suess suggested they call the new system =E2=80=9Cthe Computer Elites= =E2=80=99 > Communication Project,=E2=80=9D or C.E.C.,"* >=20 > I love the grandiosity. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > P.S. Ward was dead 2 days before his body was found, which makes me sad. A > reminder to check on your older friends right away if you don't hear from > them when you should've. --===============6629905053634258658==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 24 19:18:06 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 13:17:57 -0600 Message-ID: <9765e89d-cde8-46e0-893b-47e47ecfbf95@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8336588309109017951==" --===============8336588309109017951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-10-24 11:49 a.m., Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: >> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to >> have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about > > Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-) Was all that stuff like $10 a hour + long distance charges ? That was a good reason to ignore it back then, if you could log on. --===============8336588309109017951==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 19:24:50 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 19:24:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9765e89d-cde8-46e0-893b-47e47ecfbf95@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7272476591416010889==" --===============7272476591416010889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did compuserve. It was about $10 a month. They had a lot of local numbers s= o you didn=E2=80=99t have to pay Toll charges. Never had any problems logging= in except during a =E2=80=9Cconstruction event=E2=80=9D. Meaning some backhoe operator sliced a cable in the street somewhere. No grap= hics, just text. Used Archie a lot to find stuff.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 24, 2024, at 12:18, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2024-10-24 11:49 a.m., Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: >>> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to >>> have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about >> Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-) >=20 > Was all that stuff like $10 a hour + long distance charges ? > That was a good reason to ignore it back then, if you could > log on. >=20 --===============7272476591416010889==-- From merlyn@geeks.org Thu Oct 24 19:50:29 2024 From: Doug McIntyre To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 14:32:20 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9765e89d-cde8-46e0-893b-47e47ecfbf95@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7568919963591917208==" --===============7568919963591917208== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 01:17:57PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-10-24 11:49 a.m., Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: > > > The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed= to > > > have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about > >=20 > > Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-) >=20 > Was all that stuff like $10 a hour + long distance charges ? > That was a good reason to ignore it back then, if you could > log on. CompuServe (and The Source) typically utilized their own and Tymnet dialup po= ols spread all across the country, that got you onto the packet switched network of the day. They had day rates/= night rates, since the main reason for the Tymnet packet switched networks were paying bus= iness customers by day, leaving night time open up for hobbiests. So, no long distance charges in major markets. But they did tend to get expensive hourly rates to pay for the packet network= , and the main/miniframe time that they ran on. The Source was probably around that pri= ce range. I remember switching to Compuserve to get cheaper per-hour rates. --===============7568919963591917208==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Thu Oct 24 20:00:24 2024 From: Donald Whittemore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 20:00:17 +0000 Message-ID: <172980001746.4006402.14374218411231878034@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7255015055890255403==" --===============7255015055890255403== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Had a contracting job in Italy late 1989. Introduced the client to CompuServe= . I was part of Team Toshiba at the time. We used the local dial up number bu= t had problems. Somewhere along the line it was discovered we could somehow c= onnect directly to the packet network. We started doing that. We stopped when= the first bill arrived. It was 5 digits USD. =F0=9F=98=8A --===============7255015055890255403==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Oct 24 20:36:14 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 13:36:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3231536031343555639==" --===============3231536031343555639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to >> have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-) dialog (1966), Compuserve (1069), The Source (1979, so a tie), and=20 Community Memory (1973, but not dialup), and probably a few lesser ones prece= ded CBBS. BUT, CBBS did have a few things to distinguish it. no SUBSCRIPTION charges a peer culture, without major corporate management and control Of interest only here: run on a Z80 (8080?) miscrocomputer encouraged others to do the same (absolutely not the case with the commercial= ones) For those unable or unwilling to pay for a subscription, and for those who=20 just wanted to casually try it withno committment, CBBS made it possible. THAT got quite a few people started. So, CBBS was extremely important, but not "THE FIRST" bulletin board system. (and, of course, XMODEM was not "THE FIRST" file transfer protocol) (thank you, to our newspaper people, for clarifying why XMODEM was barely men= tioned) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3231536031343555639==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Oct 24 20:43:53 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 13:43:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1339776631872295445==" --===============1339776631872295445== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote: > Actually I posted the ArsTechnica article in one of the New York Times > internal chat channels on Oct 16th, I was hoping someone would pick > this up. I did the same when Chuck Peddle died. > > I work for the Times and there are a few people here who appreciate > old technology. I don't have any pull, but some of the writers are > serious techies. > > As for the article, this is the New York Times and not ArsTechnica. > The readers are different and the writers have to find ways to relate. > Depending on your perspective, BBSes were the social systems of the > time. I can see the link between them. > > I thought it was well written and regardless of what you think of the > Times, it is nice to see Ward Christensen remembered with a proper > obituary. . . . and, did you hear about first on this list? if so, NYT heard it from you, (THANK YOU!) you heard it from this list, I did the first post about it on this list I heard about it on another list, the person who posted about it on that list doesn't remember source -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1339776631872295445==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Oct 24 20:59:05 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 13:58:57 -0700 Message-ID: <02c801db2657$8c439090$a4cab1b0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7020991915497820654==" --===============7020991915497820654== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After all of this all I want to know is if an autopsy was done or not? ;) -Ali > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2024 1:44 PM > To: Christian Liendo via cctalk > Cc: Fred Cisin > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary > > On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote: > > Actually I posted the ArsTechnica article in one of the New York > Times > > internal chat channels on Oct 16th, I was hoping someone would pick > > this up. I did the same when Chuck Peddle died. > > > > I work for the Times and there are a few people here who appreciate > > old technology. I don't have any pull, but some of the writers are > > serious techies. > > > > As for the article, this is the New York Times and not ArsTechnica. > > The readers are different and the writers have to find ways to > relate. > > Depending on your perspective, BBSes were the social systems of the > > time. I can see the link between them. > > > > I thought it was well written and regardless of what you think of the > > Times, it is nice to see Ward Christensen remembered with a proper > > obituary. > > . . . and, did you hear about first on this list? > if so, > NYT heard it from you, (THANK YOU!) > you heard it from this list, > I did the first post about it on this list > I heard about it on another list, > the person who posted about it on that list doesn't remember source > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7020991915497820654==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 21:23:30 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 14:21:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4137505803589532858==" --===============4137505803589532858== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 1:45=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed > to > >> have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about > > On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-) > > dialog (1966), Compuserve (1069), The Source (1979, so a tie), and > Community Memory (1973, but not dialup), and probably a few lesser ones > preceded CBBS. > Come on, Fred. You're old but you're not that old, and I don't think there were computers back in 1069. At least I don't think there were. Sellam --===============4137505803589532858==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 21:34:06 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RQDX3 Formatter Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 14:33:49 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3240515047400453011==" --===============3240515047400453011== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did Lou ever publish somewhere his notes on patching ZRQCH0? Back from around almost 10 years ago: https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/patching-zrqch0-to-use-any-geometry= -mfm-hard-disk-on-rqdx3.39318/ Is Lou still around? Looks like he hasn't posted on VCFed in a few years. On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > > I don't have the source, but I had great success octal-patching my copy a > few years ago, made it work with a Maxtor xt-11something instead of the > real rd54 / xt-2190. > I'll reply again if I can find the instructions for doing it. Just > followed recipe from some guy's website and it worked perfect. > > On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 09:20, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > Does anyone have the source for the ZRQCxx formatter? I have found a pdf > > for ZRQCE0 but am curious if the actual source code for that one, or ZRQC= H0 > > is available? I'd like to make some changes to the UIT table. > > > > -Peter > > --===============3240515047400453011==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Oct 24 21:48:14 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 21:48:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172980001746.4006402.14374218411231878034@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1985875766347842045==" --===============1985875766347842045== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/24/24 13:00, Donald Whittemore via cctalk wrote: > Had a contracting job in Italy late 1989. Introduced the client to CompuSer= ve. I was part of Team Toshiba at the time. We used the local dial up number = but had problems. Somewhere along the line it was discovered we could somehow= connect directly to the packet network. We started doing that. We stopped wh= en the first bill arrived. It was 5 digits USD. =F0=9F=98=8A How about Tymshare/Tymnet/SBC....etc. Did Call Computer in Mountain View employ a file transfer protocol for use by subscribers? --Chuck --===============1985875766347842045==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Oct 24 21:54:12 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 14:54:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0588527287717671971==" --===============0588527287717671971== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> dialog (1966), Compuserve (1069), The Source (1979, so a tie), and >> Community Memory (1973, but not dialup), and probably a few lesser ones >> preceded CBBS. On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Come on, Fred. You're old but you're not that old, and I don't think there > were computers back in 1069. At least I don't think there were. Yes, that was a typo (adjacent keys). But long ago, people hired to do arithmetic were called "computers" :-) or at least "calculators" But, even so, I doubt that the vikings who discovered America, nor king William the Conqueror (subjugating Northern Englan), nor Romanos IV (attacking the seljik Turks) did much arithmetic. They were still reeling from Y1K. Stonehenge wasn't portable, or at least Belafon the systems analyst said so. Antikytheran devices were in very short supply. And, it was more than 500 years before the Pascaline (developed by Blaise Pascal), Napier's Bones, or slide rules. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0588527287717671971==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Oct 24 22:32:49 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 14:57:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8877609088366833187==" --===============8877609088366833187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > How about Tymshare/Tymnet/SBC....etc. > > Did Call Computer in Mountain View employ a file transfer protocol for > use by subscribers? Impressive claims were made about station wagon full of tapes hurtling down t= he highway. --===============8877609088366833187==-- From joe@barrera.org Thu Oct 24 22:42:34 2024 From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 15:18:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4654935446432418324==" --===============4654935446432418324== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Come on, Fred. You're old but you're not that old, and I don't think there > were computers back in 1069. At least I don't think there were. No, the date is correct. Creating CompuServe was one of the first acts of King William in the immediate aftermath of winning the Norman Conquest in 1066. CompuServe (using human computers, of course, as Fred points out) was a way for King William to communicate with his newly conquered land, in a time when the printing press was not to be invented until centuries later. Neil Stephenson wrote an excellent summary of this topic in his introduction to the 50th anniversary edition of The Crying of Lot 49. If you're wondering, I learned all of these facts from ChatGPT. On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 2:23 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 1:45 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > >> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, > seemed > > to > > >> have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor > about > > > > On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > > Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-) > > > > dialog (1966), Compuserve (1069), The Source (1979, so a tie), and > > Community Memory (1973, but not dialup), and probably a few lesser ones > > preceded CBBS. > > > > Come on, Fred. You're old but you're not that old, and I don't think there > were computers back in 1069. At least I don't think there were. > > Sellam > --===============4654935446432418324==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 22:42:36 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 18:35:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3010396077997402919==" --===============3010396077997402919== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/23/2024 10:46 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > >> Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was unobtanium in the early >> computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer. >> >> It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a >> Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's. >> >> I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from >> my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during >> the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed >> and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows'   Unheard of - I >> did a heap of learning. >> >> That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became >> accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991) >> into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my >> first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10 >> 1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files. >> >> So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles. > > Very slightly before that (not by much), Xenix (Unix without the > trademark royalties, and peddled by MICROS~1) could run on a 80286. > > Bill Gates said that the 80286 was "brain dead". (possibly due to the > difficulty of switching back and forth to "protected mode") The 80386, > and even the 80386SX, was a very welcome step. > And yet, Minix ran on the 8088. bill --===============3010396077997402919==-- From joe@barrera.org Thu Oct 24 22:47:21 2024 From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 15:47:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1507711385396902678==" --===============1507711385396902678== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Impressive claims were made about station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. That was Jim Gray's favorite way of illustrating the difference between bandwidth and latency when discussing e.g. high speed networking. Nowadays, of course, it would be a Chevrolet Suburban full of 1 TB micro-SDXC cards. Micro-SD volume[1]: 21.5 mm =C3=97 20 mm =C3=97 1.4 mm =3D 0.000602 liters Suburban cargo volume[2]: 144.7 cu ft =3D 4097.4477 liters # TB =3D # cards =3D 4097.4477 / 0.000602 =3D 6,806,392 TB =3D 6.5 EB [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_card#Physical_size [2] https://www.chevrolet.com/suvs/suburban On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 3:26=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > How about Tymshare/Tymnet/SBC....etc. > > > > Did Call Computer in Mountain View employ a file transfer protocol for > > use by subscribers? > > Impressive claims were made about station wagon full of tapes hurtling > down the highway. > --===============1507711385396902678==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Oct 24 23:40:28 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 23:40:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5348038022996172753==" --===============5348038022996172753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/24/24 14:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> How about Tymshare/Tymnet/SBC....etc. >> >> Did Call Computer in Mountain View employ a file transfer protocol for >> use by subscribers? > > Impressive claims were made about station wagon full of tapes hurtling > down the highway. I still have the Samsonite briefcase I used to transport 7-track tapes as carry-on baggage. Jets even then, were much faster than station wagons. 6 tapes to a trip. More than once it was "hand the tapes to someone meeting you at the gate and catch the next return flight". --Chuck --===============5348038022996172753==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Oct 24 23:42:10 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:42:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CIA2P221MB1468F0AAFE8FFE0B09B6B0CEED4E2=40IA2P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1468=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5812800745680679049==" --===============5812800745680679049== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > And yet, Minix ran on the 8088. One system called "Minix", from Digital Systems House was based on AT&T Unix code, but I haven't found out anything about it. Much more popularly known as "Minix", was a Unix-like operating system written by Andrew S. Tannenbaum, the person usually credited with the quotation: "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway." Linus Torvalds employed a monolithic kernel instead of a microkernel, as Tannenbaum's Minix used. Tannenbaum and Torvalds argued about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_debate -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5812800745680679049==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Thu Oct 24 23:43:50 2024 From: Donald Whittemore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 23:43:47 +0000 Message-ID: <172981342729.4006402.4039440981441704953@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0049181961772915048==" --===============0049181961772915048== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I once brought source code open reel tapes back from Italy. Had to explain to= customs guy at O=E2=80=99Hare what they were. --===============0049181961772915048==-- From brain@jbrain.com Thu Oct 24 23:59:40 2024 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 18:59:32 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2339757312997267173==" --===============2339757312997267173== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/24/2024 5:47 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: > > Nowadays, of course, it would be a Chevrolet Suburban full of 1 TB > micro-SDXC cards. > > Micro-SD volume[1]: 21.5 mm × 20 mm × 1.4 mm = 0.000602 liters > Suburban cargo volume[2]: 144.7 cu ft = 4097.4477 liters > # TB = # cards = 4097.4477 / 0.000602 = 6,806,392 TB = 6.5 EB > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_card#Physical_size > [2] https://www.chevrolet.com/suvs/suburban > Thanks not only for the analogy update, but kudos for actually doing the math. tips hat Jim --===============2339757312997267173==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Oct 25 00:02:54 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:02:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0709015218523840503==" --===============0709015218523840503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Impressive claims were made about station wagon full of tapes hurtling >> down the highway. On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I still have the Samsonite briefcase I used to transport 7-track tapes > as carry-on baggage. Jets even then, were much faster than station > wagons. 6 tapes to a trip. > More than once it was "hand the tapes to someone meeting you at the gate > and catch the next return flight". I sold Microsoft FORTRAN [for TRS80] to the college (while I was both teaching and running a business) I was not the teacher of the FORTRAN class. But Lifeboat (the distributor) kept missing deadlines, and telling me that it had been shipped, and then telling me that it would be shipped soon. So, I called my friend Bob Wallace who was still working at Microsoft (he was the tenth employee). On my way back from the eclipse in Montana, I flew back with a stop in Seattle. Bob got the FIRST THREE copies (so THAT's why Lifeboat couldn't ship yet!), and handed them to me in the Seattle airport. I was not impressed by The teacher. He was as sharp as a bag of wet hair. He announced that the compilers "DO NOT WORK", because he typed in a tiny trivial code example in the manual, and it failed due to a typo of a missing comma in the printing of the manual. (That any REAL FORTRAN programmer would spot immediately.) I corrected his source code, and he grudgingly accepted them. A few years later, he left (without notice) for a position at Cal State Hayward, and, with six hours notice, I began teaching Fortran. But, by that time, the college was using IBM Microsoft Fortran for the PC (which had its own problems) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0709015218523840503==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Oct 25 00:10:25 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:08:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6231749407930511876==" --===============6231749407930511876== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 4:50 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > More than once it was "hand the tapes to someone meeting you at the gate > and catch the next return flight". > > --Chuck > How did you know you were handing it to the right guy and not a Russian spy? Sellam --===============6231749407930511876==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Oct 25 00:16:41 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:16:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8685232771011796729==" --===============8685232771011796729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> More than once it was "hand the tapes to someone meeting you at the gate >> and catch the next return flight". On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > How did you know you were handing it to the right guy and not a Russian spy? He said, "Julius sent me", and had a piece of a Jell-O box --===============8685232771011796729==-- From joe@barrera.org Fri Oct 25 00:35:51 2024 From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:35:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8249547692416387860==" --===============8249547692416387860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks! Oh, heck, I forgot to compute the maximum bandwidth. The bandwidth is linear with distance so I'll arbitrarily pick the two ends of I-90 / I-94 in Montana (Sohon and Wibaux). Google maps says that if you stay on the interstate, that's 10 h 8 min (608 minutes or 63,480 seconds). So 6,806,392 TB / 63,480 seconds =3D 107.2 TB / s =3D 878,354 Gbps (note bits not bytes). But then you have to put up with 20+ hour ping times... On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 4:59=E2=80=AFPM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 10/24/2024 5:47 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: > > > > Nowadays, of course, it would be a Chevrolet Suburban full of 1 TB > > micro-SDXC cards. > > > > Micro-SD volume[1]: 21.5 mm =C3=97 20 mm =C3=97 1.4 mm =3D 0.000602 liters > > Suburban cargo volume[2]: 144.7 cu ft =3D 4097.4477 liters > > # TB =3D # cards =3D 4097.4477 / 0.000602 =3D 6,806,392 TB =3D 6.5 EB > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_card#Physical_size > > [2] https://www.chevrolet.com/suvs/suburban > > > > > Thanks not only for the analogy update, but kudos for actually doing the > math. > > > tips hat > > Jim > > --===============8249547692416387860==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 25 01:56:12 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 19:56:04 -0600 Message-ID: <0e075410-eb46-45cb-aadb-f38f8ea93b98@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0101803245652942609==" --===============0101803245652942609== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-10-24 3:21 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 1:45=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >>>> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed >> to >>>> have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about >> >> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: >>> Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-) >> >> dialog (1966), Compuserve (1069), The Source (1979, so a tie), and >> Community Memory (1973, but not dialup), and probably a few lesser ones >> preceded CBBS. >> >=20 > Come on, Fred. You're old but you're not that old, and I don't think there > were computers back in 1069. At least I don't think there were. >=20 Well back then they computed time mostly. > Sellam --===============0101803245652942609==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 25 02:04:25 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 20:04:16 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CIA2P221MB1468F0AAFE8FFE0B09B6B0CEED4E2=40IA2P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1468=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4697594613529361604==" --===============4697594613529361604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-10-24 4:35 p.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > And yet, Minix ran on the 8088. NO the PC, and even then it was developed under a UNIX emulator. Some where I read, wen ported to the PC it would randomly crash. This was later found to a case of undocumented irq service routine for memory parity errors. > > bill > --===============4697594613529361604==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Oct 25 02:12:34 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 02:12:27 +0000 Message-ID: <9b879bf6-0ed8-4726-ae16-30fc53af97fc@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0046661758894220447==" --===============0046661758894220447== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/24/24 17:08, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 4:50 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> More than once it was "hand the tapes to someone meeting you at the gate >> and catch the next return flight". >> >> --Chuck >> > > How did you know you were handing it to the right guy and not a Russian spy? Given the nature of the project, that might have scored a US victory in the Cold War years earlier... :) --===============0046661758894220447==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Fri Oct 25 12:05:08 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 08:04:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6135545275802540020==" --===============6135545275802540020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 5:00=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > . . . and, did you hear about first on this list? > if so, > NYT heard it from you, (THANK YOU!) I read about it on the list and I shared the link to my company's chant chann= el. I don't know if what I did made it happen but it did and I'm satisfied. We do have people in the Times that care. It's sad we don't have John Markoff anymore, he cares a lot.I had good talks with him. --===============6135545275802540020==-- From jesse@cypress-tech.com Fri Oct 25 12:25:17 2024 From: Jesse Dougherty To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for a A990 20-slot chassis Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 08:25:03 -0400 Message-ID: <501ac302-16c7-4498-868a-b00ef1a153b4@Cypress-Tech.com> In-Reply-To: <832df251-c469-46d8-86ad-0f03dcb841f7@Cypress-Tech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9129984230002255566==" --===============9129984230002255566== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone have a 20-slot HP 1000 990 chassis p/n A2959 / A2999 for sale? I can also trade for other 1k / mx HP related hardware. Feel free to email me direct off group to  Jesse(a)Cypress-tech.com Thanks Jesse Jesse(a)Cypress-tech.com --===============9129984230002255566==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Oct 25 14:30:48 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 10:30:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4778624177255191307==" --===============4778624177255191307== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/24/2024 10:04 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-10-24 4:35 p.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> >> >> And yet, Minix ran on the 8088. > NO the PC, and even then it was developed under a UNIX emulator. > Some where I read, wen ported to the PC it would randomly crash. > This was later found to a case of undocumented irq service routine > for memory parity errors. The original IBM PC on which Minix ran (I still have my copies of the original) was an Intel 8088. bill --===============4778624177255191307==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Oct 25 18:17:09 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] OS2 on a ThinkPad Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 13:16:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8207247406174207775==" --===============8207247406174207775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You'd think an IBM operating system on an IBM ThinkPad would be easy-peasy - but good grief, it's taken me over a year to finally get a magic formula that works. Not too new, not too old.... (and yes, I have ArcaOS too, but I wanted an OG 1994 install) One interesting thing I found is that OS/2 can actually run SecondReality (in full screen, but it suspends it when I ALT-ESC to something else) -- including with SBPro audio. I couldn't do that with WinXP yet (same hardware), even though trying explicit DOS settings. I may tinker some more on that, but rebooting to "MS-DOS Mode" in 95/98 can changing EMM386 from NOEMS to RAM then SR works. I'll do a write up on the adventure soon-ish, I'm still trying to figure out the TCP/IP settings stuff for OS/2. My first experience on the Internet was "borrowing" my sister's credit card and racking up $100 for an afternoon of web-surfing on dial up, with OS/2 Warp in 1994. A graphical Traceroute was so neat to see, a graphical Gopher, and some early web sites. Frankly, that day I fully realized that "BBS's are done for" (or cute ANSI couldn't compete with HTML). I paid my sister back, eventually. At the time I thought it was just an activation gate, didn't realize there was a per-minute charge. Sorry sis! Don't leave your card out on the table :P -Steve --===============8207247406174207775==-- From chd@chdickman.com Fri Oct 25 21:40:45 2024 From: Charles Dickman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RQDX3 Formatter Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 17:40:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7973121350875705312==" --===============7973121350875705312== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Search the list back in late 2018, there is a thread with the same subject. There is a link to a spreadsheet in that thread that has the calculations for new drive sizes. Lou and I sort of worked out the details without knowledge of each other and he had a nice document describing how to create a new entry in the table. He seemed reluctant to share it at the time, so I will respect that now. I was interested in modifying the tables so that I could create a maximum sized disk to use with an MFM disk emulator. Congratulations if you have an MFM drive that you think is reliable enough today to format and try to use. The central theme of the RQDX3 format is bad block replacement, and you will probably need it. Based on the reliability of the drive, a portion of the drive is allocated to bad block replacement. One sector per track (?) is reserved for in-track replacement and a group of tracks are allocated for out-of-track replacement. The space allotted for replacements is inconsistent, for example the RD51 has room for 0.66% of the blocks to fail vs. the RD33 which can only tolerate 0.19% block failure rate. The replacement block locations are based on a hash. The only place I have seen the replacement algorithm documented is in an Ultrix driver for the microVAX 2000 (?). This would make a sector image of an RQDX3 drive very difficult to work with unless it is connected to another RQDX3 or the replacement map is understood. Is Lou around? I hope so, he refined a PDP-8/e memory board design I did and built multiple copies. That phrase used to imply moving on to some other hobby, but lately these old computer lists it's become past on. Ugh. -chuck If the original author is no longer available to ask I can contribute my copy to bitsavers. This has been a topic of discussion for many years. I doubt DEC/Compaq/HP cares anymore. On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 5:34=E2=80=AFPM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Did Lou ever publish somewhere his notes on patching ZRQCH0? > > Back from around almost 10 years ago: > > > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/patching-zrqch0-to-use-any-geomet= ry-mfm-hard-disk-on-rqdx3.39318/ > > Is Lou still around? Looks like he hasn't posted on VCFed in a few years. > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I don't have the source, but I had great success octal-patching my copy a > > few years ago, made it work with a Maxtor xt-11something instead of the > > real rd54 / xt-2190. > > I'll reply again if I can find the instructions for doing it. Just > > followed recipe from some guy's website and it worked perfect. > > > > On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 09:20, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > Does anyone have the source for the ZRQCxx formatter? I have found a > pdf > > > for ZRQCE0 but am curious if the actual source code for that one, or > ZRQCH0 > > > is available? I'd like to make some changes to the UIT table. > > > > > > -Peter > > > > --===============7973121350875705312==-- From rickb@bensene.com Sat Oct 26 17:27:21 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] GE Mark I/Mark II Timeshare Systems Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 17:20:58 +0000 Message-ID: <802be3ab9b24433aaaf395a81d032d70@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4154883116325556572==" --===============4154883116325556572== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, all, I know that there has been great effort to gather up and make available via e= mulation (SIMH) timeshared Operating Systems for DEC machines, as well as Hew= lett Packard 2000-Series Timeshared BASIC systems, but I was wondering if the= re has been any efforts made to archive and perhaps emulate any versions of G= eneral Electric's timesharing systems?=20 GE's architecture was similar to Hewlett Packard's timeshared BASIC (2000A, C= , C', F, /ACCESS) in that there was a main computer that took care of managin= g the user-space and running user programs, and a communications processor th= at acted as the front-end that did the terminal services handling. At one point, GE's timesharing system service was the largest timeshared comp= uting service bureau out there, getting an early start in timesharing out of = the timesharing research done at Dartmouth, as GE computers were used in this= research. The GE timeshare service had local dial-up lines in most major ci= ties, and eventually were connected into Tymnet, further adding to the places= where a local dial-up number could get you into any of a number of different= GE timeshare systems that were connected to the network. =20 Has anyone done work on emulating any of GE's processors (200-series, 400-ser= ies, DATANET machines) that were used in the Mark I and Mark II timesharing s= ystems? GE's place in timesharing history is quite significant, and seems certainly d= eserving of efforts to procure and preserve the code, and perhaps make it liv= e on through emulation. However, GE being the huge entity that it is (and w= as back then), getting hands on the code as well as permission to do anything= with it could be a challenge that may have been attempted and failed who kno= ws how many times over the years. I'm just wondering if anyone out there may have old listings, mag-tapes, or c= ard decks laying around that have the source(or binary distributions) for any= of these GE timesharing systems? =20 If, so, any such media should certainly be put in the hands of an entity that= can assure that they are preserved, and perhaps at some point, made availabl= e online so that others who may have interest could begin work on emulating t= hese systems. I thought of this today because an old memory came to the fore out of the blu= e. The memory is very clear despite the many years that have elapsed since t= hen. It is as clear in my mind as it was the day it happened. I have no id= ea why it has stuck so clearly in my mind. Back in high school, there was a service man that would come in to repair/tun= e-up the Teletype model 33-ASR's we used to dial into the school district's H= P Timeshared BASIC system. These machines were heavily used by students who = didn't always treat them gently, and the 33-ASR's weren't really designed for= the use they were exposed to, so he would come in frequently to fix machines= that had broken down. =20 After he had worked on a Teletype, he would dial-in to some kind of timeshare= system with a local phone number and run some test programs to validate the = proper operation of the terminal. and then log his work by running a BASIC pr= ogram that would ask him questions about the job, and he'd fill in the answer= s. =20 One day, I happened to be working at a Teletype next to the one he was workin= g on, and he had just finished up his work on the machine. He and I had chat= ted numerous times in the past, so he was comfortable with me, as I was with = him. I watched as he dialed up the phone number for the system and I memori= zed it as he dialed it. I also watched as he entered his account to log into = the system. It was IBB00999, and the password was "INFO". I couldn't see th= e print out from my angle, so I had to watch his fingers as he typed in the i= nformation. I tried to be as inconspicuous as possible while watching him, b= ut he made no attempt to block my view or otherwise keep me from seeing what = he was doing. He always made a point of taking the printout of his session w= ith him rather than leaving it on the machine or tearing it off and tossing i= t in the trash. I figure that was a security measure as the at least the use= r ID would be listed on the paper. But, it didn't stop someone from watching= him enter the information. I had become pretty good at watching people's f= ingers on the keyboard to figure out what they were typing. After he had finished his work, I dialed up the system, and when it asked "US= ER NUMBER--", I typed in "IBB00999,INFO", and pressed [RETURN]. I guess I h= ad observed what he'd typed correctly, because then the TTY clattered out "SY= STEM--", which I did not happen to note the service man's answer to this quer= y, but I figured it wanted to know what language to use, so I typed in "BASIC= ", and hit [RETURN]. The system then said "NEW OR OLD--", and since I didn't= know what programs were already in the directory, I typed in NEW, and then p= ressed [RETURN]. I was then greeted with "READY". I'd seen this NEW/OLD us= ed on a DEC RSTS/E system, so I knew it meant either to start fresh with a ne= w program, or if OLD was typed, it'd want to know the name of a program to lo= ad from the catalog. I typed in a simple BASIC program, something like generating a listing of num= bers and their square roots from 1 to 100, and typed "RUN", and it paused for= a short time, then began rattling off the list of numbers. I got nervous, t= hough, and logged out after the program finished (I didn't know how to stop i= t, though I later figured out that pressing the [BREAK] key would work, just = like it did on the HP Timeshared BASIC system. =20 Over the following days, I logged into the system and played with it here and= there, making sure to only log short sessions so as not to rack up too much = time, as the company that the service guy worked for may have been charged fo= r the online time. I never stayed logged in for more than perhaps 10 minutes= at a time, and the programs I tried didn't chew up much in the way of resour= ces. I didn't save any programs, nor did I try to do anything that would lea= ve traces of my visits, other than the fact that I had dialed in and logged i= n. =20 The system seemed to have a FORTRAN subsystem also, and I was able to enter a= small FORTRAN program and RUN it, which was kind of cool. I had learned FOR= TRAN by taking a class at a local community college that had an IBM 360/30, s= o I knew enough to be able to enter a simple FORTRAN program and try it out. = I thought it was really cool that this system could do both BASIC and FORTRA= N. I tried to see if it had COBOL (which I had also learned by taking anothe= r class at a community college), but alas, it did not. =20 I don't know if the languages on the system were interpreted, semi-compiled (= into pseudo-code which was then interpreted), or fully compiled into machine = code. I do know that when you typed RUN to execute a program, the system wou= ld pause for some time before execution began, so there must have been some k= ind of processing going on that could have been compilation of some form. I remember that the system seemed to be quite a bit more responsive than the = HP 2000C Timeshared BASIC system the school had access to. It would general= ly respond to commands immediately, while sometimes the HP system would pause= a bit before anything happened. Admittedly, I knew that our HP 2000C system= was very busy all the time during the school days as it was shared by quite = a few different school districts in the county. I had no idea how many user= s may have been on the GE timeshared system.=20 It would take longer on the GE system after you typed RUN on a BASIC program = before the program started executing, but once it did, it would rip through t= he program considerably faster than the HP system, especially when it came to= doing lots of math. I once entered a program that would calculate factorial= s, and I ran the programs side by side, one on the HP 2000C, and the other on= the GE timeshared system (I didn't know it was a GE system at the time, but = figured it out later). I gave the GE system a little head-start because of t= he processing before the program ran. The program would generate a list of = integers and their factorials from 1 to 40. As the numbers got larger, the = HP timeshared system would print out the integer and some spaces, then stop f= or a bit, taking longer as the factorial was computed, and then print the fac= torial. The program was the same on both systems, but the GE system never pa= used during the output, and finished just under a minute faster than the HP s= ystem. =20 I didn't have any manuals or other documentation for the system, and so I jus= t had to trial-and-error my way through. I'm sure I didn't even begin to scr= atch the surface of the capabilities of the system, but it was nonetheless in= teresting to poke around in a system that was different than our timeshare sy= stem. After I had tinkered around with it intermittently for a few weeks, I= ran out of things to try, and stopped playing with it, partly out of worry a= bout getting caught somehow. =20 A few months later, I thought about it again, and when I tried to login, it a= ppeared that the user had been deleted or the password changed. Perhaps my t= inkering had showed up as a larger than usual bill for services, and that res= ulted in the change. Or, maybe it was policy to change the user/password eve= ry so often. It was fun to explore while it lasted. =20 The Teletype service guy would be much more careful when he was dialing up th= e system and entering his userID/password, and would ask anyone nearby to ple= ase turn away while he was connecting up to the system. I have no idea if it= was my tinkering that caused this change in behavior, but if I was nearby, I= would comply with his request, so I never got a chance to gather up another = userID/password. Some years later, my father's business, which was a precision machine shop, h= ad an account on a GE Timeshare System that had the "APT" "part programming l= anguage" that was used to describe a machined part. When the APT program was= "compiled", it would result in a punched paper tape that would be fed into a= Numerically-Controlled machining center to actually create the part. It wa= s very expensive to use, and though my Dad did let me log in once and look ar= ound a little, I didn't want to rack up charges, and stayed away from messing= with it. The service was discontinued when MASTERCAM came out for the IBM P= C and they bought a couple of high-end PC clones and licenses for MASTERCAM. = Anyway, enough old memories. If anyone out there had experience with GE time= shared systems, or may know of existence of any distribution media or source = listings of the systems, or perhaps has memories of using them, I'd love to r= ead about it. If you think it might be of general interest to the list, po= st it to the list, but you are certainly welcome to send it to me directly at moc-dot-enesneb+at+bkcir (backwards with special characters spelled out to h= opefully prevent it being snarfed up by 5p(a)mm3rZ).=20 Thanks for reading, and best to all! Rick Bensene https://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon USA=20 --===============4154883116325556572==-- From david4602@gmail.com Sat Oct 26 17:50:44 2024 From: David Schmidt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OS2 on a ThinkPad Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 17:50:40 +0000 Message-ID: <172996504062.4006402.5775733197697923026@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5921948196475333914==" --===============5921948196475333914== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve Lewis wrote: > I'll do a write up on the adventure soon-ish, I'm still trying to figure > out the TCP/IP settings stuff for OS/2. You stand a much better chance of getting OS/2 drivers for IBM-produced machi= nes than just about anyone else's, but hat's off to you for getting it done. I (and I'm sure lots of others) can help if you need it navigating LAPS/MPTS/= TCP/IP settings. The stack is coming from a much more naive era with respect= to security; you probably don't want to set up an FTP server, for example. ;= -) - David --===============5921948196475333914==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Oct 26 20:13:36 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OS2 on a ThinkPad Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 15:13:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172996504062.4006402.5775733197697923026@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2249532556192500039==" --===============2249532556192500039== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That's true. Part of the trouble was just finding a ThinkPad still in decent enough shape. They're note equipment but not exactly ToughBook tanks. For many, the plastic case has just become brittle. And I'm not sure if the cooling was really adequate for the Pentium's (especially if the case gets compromised and has any sort of large crack). But I'd get one that ended up with a busted floppy, or a busted CD, or sour screen, etc. Installing from CD was really what I was going for (Warp 3 Connect), and many of the CD equipped ThinkPad's are just too new. Then I saw inconsistencies across the same model line (for example some could boot to CD or PCMCIA, some couldn't). I thought perhaps they were just re-badged instances, but then realized: oh, it was due to firmware update differences over time. Anyhow, sorry to distract about 1990's stuff . Anyone got a working Univac-422? :) A modern-retro remake of one those would be neat, but it seems it's always all about the PDP's instead :P On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 12:50 PM David Schmidt via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Steve Lewis wrote: > > I'll do a write up on the adventure soon-ish, I'm still trying to figure > > out the TCP/IP settings stuff for OS/2. > > You stand a much better chance of getting OS/2 drivers for IBM-produced > machines than just about anyone else's, but hat's off to you for getting it > done. > > I (and I'm sure lots of others) can help if you need it navigating > LAPS/MPTS/TCP/IP settings. The stack is coming from a much more naive era > with respect to security; you probably don't want to set up an FTP server, > for example. ;-) > > - David > --===============2249532556192500039==-- From ggs@shiresoft.com Sun Oct 27 05:19:21 2024 From: Guy Sotomayor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OS2 on a ThinkPad Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 21:34:33 -0700 Message-ID: <46ae0c82-41fc-48d5-aa8d-81a14ed0889f@shiresoft.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9103537853980034994==" --===============9103537853980034994== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You could also look at ArcaOS from Arca Noae.  Arca Noae took over OS/2 from IBM when it was discontinued.  They've been updating it and making a number of releases with updated hardware support.  For example, they just released a version that has the ability to boot from UEFI- based systems. TTFN - Guy On 10/26/24 13:13, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > That's true. Part of the trouble was just finding a ThinkPad still in > decent enough shape. They're note equipment but not exactly ToughBook > tanks. For many, the plastic case has just become brittle. And I'm not > sure if the cooling was really adequate for the Pentium's (especially if > the case gets compromised and has any sort of large crack). But I'd get > one that ended up with a busted floppy, or a busted CD, or sour screen, > etc. Installing from CD was really what I was going for (Warp 3 Connect), > and many of the CD equipped ThinkPad's are just too new. > > Then I saw inconsistencies across the same model line (for example some > could boot to CD or PCMCIA, some couldn't). I thought perhaps they were > just re-badged instances, but then realized: oh, it was due to firmware > update differences over time. > > Anyhow, sorry to distract about 1990's stuff . Anyone got a working > Univac-422? :) A modern-retro remake of one those would be neat, but it > seems it's always all about the PDP's instead :P > > > > > On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 12:50 PM David Schmidt via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Steve Lewis wrote: >>> I'll do a write up on the adventure soon-ish, I'm still trying to figure >>> out the TCP/IP settings stuff for OS/2. >> You stand a much better chance of getting OS/2 drivers for IBM-produced >> machines than just about anyone else's, but hat's off to you for getting it >> done. >> >> I (and I'm sure lots of others) can help if you need it navigating >> LAPS/MPTS/TCP/IP settings. The stack is coming from a much more naive era >> with respect to security; you probably don't want to set up an FTP server, >> for example. ;-) >> >> - David >> -- TTFN - Guy --===============9103537853980034994==-- From jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk Sun Oct 27 10:06:57 2024 From: jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Recovering intel intellec microcomputers, hardware and software Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 10:06:53 +0000 Message-ID: <173002361326.4006402.18188669931329446538@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3605282814595955885==" --===============3605282814595955885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As the venerable intellec microcomputers have reached their half-century, I'm= interested in contacting other owners/collectors to try and obtain original = assembler tapes (or their contents) to enable restoration of systems to full = working order. My particular interest is in the intellec 4 mod 40 (I've rebui= lt the one I used in college, 1975-1977) but I don't have the original softwa= re, supplied on paper tape. I've also been in contact with other owners and p= eople interested in making replicas of the intellec 8 and mod 80 systems, and= there's a lack of info on the the ROM monitors. Given the historical significance of these fine machines (and my personal ann= oyance at the lack of foresight I had as a callow postgraduate regarding hang= ing on to copies of paper tape) I'd like to put a shout out to see if any of = this information/software is available in a historical nook or cranny somewhe= re in the computing world and try to gather it together to help complete syst= ems and share the techniques used when 4K of RAM was a really big, expensive = and rather hot deal.... --===============3605282814595955885==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Sun Oct 27 13:32:16 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RQDX3 Formatter Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 09:32:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3751153125885263278==" --===============3751153125885263278== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chuck, Lou did reach out to me and shared a copy of his document. (If you read this Lou, thank you!) I haven't yet, but I plan to go through it and learn (I know I will) lots of good stuff. I did come across the thread you mention with your spreadsheet and I also plan to make good use of it. Thank you for sharing it in that thread! I have an RD32 drive that has been working fine, but recently developed some sort of problem that now prevents me from even formatting it. It starts out just fine, encounters a couple of bad blocks and then stalls the formatting process. I have another drive that isn't DEC standard so that's where patching of ZRQCH0 on my XXDP tape comes into place. I'm guessing you're right, I may have to abandon the idea of using the real drives and get something like a Qbone or something. Is there such a thing as an MFM drive emulator that would plug in to the RQDX3 as a real drive would? Back in the 80's I came close to getting an 11/23 with a couple of RL02 drives and I think some RX-drives as well. Probably a tape drive too. But unfortunately it fell through. So this is an attempt to get to tinker with the real thing. I love the SIMH simulator suite but for some reason, missing the hardware takes away a big part of tinkering for me. So I am enjoying having these 11/23+ boards and drives to tinker with now. Thank you for all the information, tips and pointers! -Peter On Sun, Oct 27, 2024 at 1:55=E2=80=AFAM Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Search the list back in late 2018, there is a thread with the same subject. > > There is a link to a spreadsheet in that thread that has the calculations > for new drive sizes. > > Lou and I sort of worked out the details without knowledge of each other > and he had a nice document describing how to create a new entry in the > table. He seemed reluctant to share it at the time, so I will respect that > now. > > I was interested in modifying the tables so that I could create a maximum > sized disk to use with an MFM disk emulator. > > Congratulations if you have an MFM drive that you think is reliable enough > today to format and try to use. The central theme of the RQDX3 format is > bad block replacement, and you will probably need it. > > Based on the reliability of the drive, a portion of the drive is allocated > to bad block replacement. One sector per track (?) is reserved for in-track > replacement and a group of tracks are allocated for out-of-track > replacement. The space allotted for replacements is inconsistent, for > example the RD51 has room for 0.66% of the blocks to fail vs. the RD33 > which can only tolerate 0.19% block failure rate. The replacement block > locations are based on a hash. The only place I have seen the replacement > algorithm documented is in an Ultrix driver for the microVAX 2000 (?). This > would make a sector image of an RQDX3 drive very difficult to work with > unless it is connected to another RQDX3 or the replacement map is > understood. > > Is Lou around? I hope so, he refined a PDP-8/e memory board design I did > and built multiple copies. That phrase used to imply moving on to some > other hobby, but lately these old computer lists it's become past on. Ugh. > > -chuck > > If the original author is no longer available to ask I can contribute my > copy to bitsavers. This has been a topic of discussion for many years. I > doubt DEC/Compaq/HP cares anymore. > > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 5:34=E2=80=AFPM Glen Slick via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Did Lou ever publish somewhere his notes on patching ZRQCH0? > > > > Back from around almost 10 years ago: > > > > > > > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/patching-zrqch0-to-use-any-geomet= ry-mfm-hard-disk-on-rqdx3.39318/ > > > > Is Lou still around? Looks like he hasn't posted on VCFed in a few years. > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > I don't have the source, but I had great success octal-patching my > copy a > > > few years ago, made it work with a Maxtor xt-11something instead of the > > > real rd54 / xt-2190. > > > I'll reply again if I can find the instructions for doing it. Just > > > followed recipe from some guy's website and it worked perfect. > > > > > > On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 09:20, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > Does anyone have the source for the ZRQCxx formatter? I have found a > > pdf > > > > for ZRQCE0 but am curious if the actual source code for that one, or > > ZRQCH0 > > > > is available? I'd like to make some changes to the UIT table. > > > > > > > > -Peter > > > > > > > --===============3751153125885263278==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sun Oct 27 13:51:35 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: GE Mark I/Mark II Timeshare Systems Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 09:51:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <802be3ab9b24433aaaf395a81d032d70@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0717871130878707418==" --===============0717871130878707418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick I believe they used straight-up Dartmouth BASIC, but maybe that's obvious and does not need to be stated. I have a paper tape exercise saved by someone who took intro training in use of the system, with the intro brochure materials, etc. When I printed the paper tape it contained BASIC code and the output. The first time I printed the tape it was upside down, with confusing results! Sorry I dont have the actual BASIC but it very well may be a simH GE mini tape file(s) out there GE 225 or 235. I seem to remember seeing this but did not find after a quick google search just now. Bill On Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 1:35 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > Hello, all, > > I know that there has been great effort to gather up and make available > via emulation (SIMH) timeshared Operating Systems for DEC machines, as well > as Hewlett Packard 2000-Series Timeshared BASIC systems, but I was > wondering if there has been any efforts made to archive and perhaps emulate > any versions of General Electric's timesharing systems? > > GE's architecture was similar to Hewlett Packard's timeshared BASIC > (2000A, C, C', F, /ACCESS) in that there was a main computer that took care > of managing the user-space and running user programs, and a communications > processor that acted as the front-end that did the terminal services > handling. > > At one point, GE's timesharing system service was the largest timeshared > computing service bureau out there, getting an early start in timesharing > out of the timesharing research done at Dartmouth, as GE computers were > used in this research. The GE timeshare service had local dial-up lines in > most major cities, and eventually were connected into Tymnet, further > adding to the places where a local dial-up number could get you into any of > a number of different GE timeshare systems that were connected to the > network. > > Has anyone done work on emulating any of GE's processors (200-series, > 400-series, DATANET machines) that were used in the Mark I and Mark II > timesharing systems? > > GE's place in timesharing history is quite significant, and seems > certainly deserving of efforts to procure and preserve the code, and > perhaps make it live on through emulation. However, GE being the huge > entity that it is (and was back then), getting hands on the code as well as > permission to do anything with it could be a challenge that may have been > attempted and failed who knows how many times over the years. > > I'm just wondering if anyone out there may have old listings, mag-tapes, > or card decks laying around that have the source(or binary distributions) > for any of these GE timesharing systems? > > If, so, any such media should certainly be put in the hands of an entity > that can assure that they are preserved, and perhaps at some point, made > available online so that others who may have interest could begin work on > emulating these systems. > > I thought of this today because an old memory came to the fore out of the > blue. The memory is very clear despite the many years that have elapsed > since then. It is as clear in my mind as it was the day it happened. I > have no idea why it has stuck so clearly in my mind. > > Back in high school, there was a service man that would come in to > repair/tune-up the Teletype model 33-ASR's we used to dial into the school > district's HP Timeshared BASIC system. These machines were heavily used by > students who didn't always treat them gently, and the 33-ASR's weren't > really designed for the use they were exposed to, so he would come in > frequently to fix machines that had broken down. > > After he had worked on a Teletype, he would dial-in to some kind of > timeshare system with a local phone number and run some test programs to > validate the proper operation of the terminal. and then log his work by > running a BASIC program that would ask him questions about the job, and > he'd fill in the answers. > > One day, I happened to be working at a Teletype next to the one he was > working on, and he had just finished up his work on the machine. He and I > had chatted numerous times in the past, so he was comfortable with me, as I > was with him. I watched as he dialed up the phone number for the system > and I memorized it as he dialed it. I also watched as he entered his > account to log into the system. It was IBB00999, and the password was > "INFO". I couldn't see the print out from my angle, so I had to watch his > fingers as he typed in the information. I tried to be as inconspicuous as > possible while watching him, but he made no attempt to block my view or > otherwise keep me from seeing what he was doing. He always made a point of > taking the printout of his session with him rather than leaving it on the > machine or tearing it off and tossing it in the trash. I figure that was a > security measure as the at least the user ID would be listed on the paper. > But, it didn't stop someone from watching him enter the information. I > had become pretty good at watching people's fingers on the keyboard to > figure out what they were typing. > > After he had finished his work, I dialed up the system, and when it asked > "USER NUMBER--", I typed in "IBB00999,INFO", and pressed [RETURN]. I > guess I had observed what he'd typed correctly, because then the TTY > clattered out "SYSTEM--", which I did not happen to note the service man's > answer to this query, but I figured it wanted to know what language to use, > so I typed in "BASIC", and hit [RETURN]. The system then said "NEW OR > OLD--", and since I didn't know what programs were already in the > directory, I typed in NEW, and then pressed [RETURN]. I was then greeted > with "READY". I'd seen this NEW/OLD used on a DEC RSTS/E system, so I knew > it meant either to start fresh with a new program, or if OLD was typed, > it'd want to know the name of a program to load from the catalog. > > I typed in a simple BASIC program, something like generating a listing of > numbers and their square roots from 1 to 100, and typed "RUN", and it > paused for a short time, then began rattling off the list of numbers. I > got nervous, though, and logged out after the program finished (I didn't > know how to stop it, though I later figured out that pressing the [BREAK] > key would work, just like it did on the HP Timeshared BASIC system. > > Over the following days, I logged into the system and played with it here > and there, making sure to only log short sessions so as not to rack up too > much time, as the company that the service guy worked for may have been > charged for the online time. I never stayed logged in for more than > perhaps 10 minutes at a time, and the programs I tried didn't chew up much > in the way of resources. I didn't save any programs, nor did I try to do > anything that would leave traces of my visits, other than the fact that I > had dialed in and logged in. > > The system seemed to have a FORTRAN subsystem also, and I was able to > enter a small FORTRAN program and RUN it, which was kind of cool. I had > learned FORTRAN by taking a class at a local community college that had an > IBM 360/30, so I knew enough to be able to enter a simple FORTRAN program > and try it out. I thought it was really cool that this system could do > both BASIC and FORTRAN. I tried to see if it had COBOL (which I had also > learned by taking another class at a community college), but alas, it did > not. > > I don't know if the languages on the system were interpreted, > semi-compiled (into pseudo-code which was then interpreted), or fully > compiled into machine code. I do know that when you typed RUN to execute a > program, the system would pause for some time before execution began, so > there must have been some kind of processing going on that could have been > compilation of some form. > > I remember that the system seemed to be quite a bit more responsive than > the HP 2000C Timeshared BASIC system the school had access to. It would > generally respond to commands immediately, while sometimes the HP system > would pause a bit before anything happened. Admittedly, I knew that our HP > 2000C system was very busy all the time during the school days as it was > shared by quite a few different school districts in the county. I had no > idea how many users may have been on the GE timeshared system. > > It would take longer on the GE system after you typed RUN on a BASIC > program before the program started executing, but once it did, it would rip > through the program considerably faster than the HP system, especially when > it came to doing lots of math. I once entered a program that would > calculate factorials, and I ran the programs side by side, one on the HP > 2000C, and the other on the GE timeshared system (I didn't know it was a GE > system at the time, but figured it out later). I gave the GE system a > little head-start because of the processing before the program ran. The > program would generate a list of integers and their factorials from 1 to > 40. As the numbers got larger, the HP timeshared system would print out > the integer and some spaces, then stop for a bit, taking longer as the > factorial was computed, and then print the factorial. The program was the > same on both systems, but the GE system never paused during the output, and > finished just under a minute faster than the HP system. > > I didn't have any manuals or other documentation for the system, and so I > just had to trial-and-error my way through. I'm sure I didn't even begin > to scratch the surface of the capabilities of the system, but it was > nonetheless interesting to poke around in a system that was different than > our timeshare system. After I had tinkered around with it intermittently > for a few weeks, I ran out of things to try, and stopped playing with it, > partly out of worry about getting caught somehow. > > A few months later, I thought about it again, and when I tried to login, > it appeared that the user had been deleted or the password changed. > Perhaps my tinkering had showed up as a larger than usual bill for > services, and that resulted in the change. Or, maybe it was policy to > change the user/password every so often. It was fun to explore while it > lasted. > > The Teletype service guy would be much more careful when he was dialing up > the system and entering his userID/password, and would ask anyone nearby to > please turn away while he was connecting up to the system. I have no idea > if it was my tinkering that caused this change in behavior, but if I was > nearby, I would comply with his request, so I never got a chance to gather > up another userID/password. > > Some years later, my father's business, which was a precision machine > shop, had an account on a GE Timeshare System that had the "APT" "part > programming language" that was used to describe a machined part. When the > APT program was "compiled", it would result in a punched paper tape that > would be fed into a Numerically-Controlled machining center to actually > create the part. It was very expensive to use, and though my Dad did let > me log in once and look around a little, I didn't want to rack up charges, > and stayed away from messing with it. The service was discontinued when > MASTERCAM came out for the IBM PC and they bought a couple of high-end PC > clones and licenses for MASTERCAM. > > Anyway, enough old memories. If anyone out there had experience with GE > timeshared systems, or may know of existence of any distribution media or > source listings of the systems, or perhaps has memories of using them, I'd > love to read about it. If you think it might be of general interest to > the list, post it to the list, but you are certainly welcome to send it to > me directly at > moc-dot-enesneb+at+bkcir (backwards with special characters spelled out > to hopefully prevent it being snarfed up by 5p(a)mm3rZ). > > Thanks for reading, and best to all! > > Rick Bensene > https://oldcalculatormuseum.com > Beavercreek, Oregon USA > > > --===============0717871130878707418==-- From pbirkel@gmail.com Sun Oct 27 13:56:01 2024 From: pbirkel@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 09:55:54 -0400 Message-ID: <065d01db2877$f12fc2e0$d38f48a0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0728011128404601780==" --===============0728011128404601780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone identify the 14" HDD seen in the following photo (not mine)? It's unusual in that there are two moving heads on the top surface of the platter. I presume that there's a fixed head on the bottom surface for the clock track. This is from a Data General 6100 disc subsystem which is advertised as 25MB capacity. There's a related model with half that capacity. https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?attachments/img_5116-jpeg.1288418 The only thing that I can say for sure is that it's visually not a Shugart SA4000 and that exhausts my knowledge on the subject.. While I presume that the 25-signal twisted-pair ribbon cable is for control signals, there is also a 16(?) line grey ribbon cable connected to the left side of the DG-specific power control PCB. I'm guessing that would be data/clock lines from hidden electronics where the 25-signal twisted-pair ribbon originates; not sure what else may be then happening on the DG-specific power control PCB. Thank you for any insights into manufacturer, model, and documentation. -paul --===============0728011128404601780==-- From pete@dunnington.plus.com Sun Oct 27 15:48:15 2024 From: Pete Turnbull To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 15:37:45 +0000 Message-ID: <216dd4b0-189f-4006-80b8-0b4dce56386f@dunnington.plus.com> In-Reply-To: <065d01db2877$f12fc2e0$d38f48a0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6075281952802956378==" --===============6075281952802956378== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 27/10/2024 13:55, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone identify the 14" HDD seen in the following photo (not mine)? > It's unusual in that there are two moving heads on the top surface of the > platter. I presume that there's a fixed head on the bottom surface for the > clock track. This is from a Data General 6100 disc subsystem which is > advertised as 25MB capacity. There's a related model with half that > capacity. > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?attachments/img_5116-jpeg.1288418 It's a Fujitsu drive and has an SMD interface, but I don't know what model. -- Pete Pete Turnbull --===============6075281952802956378==-- From roger@arrick.com Sun Oct 27 15:52:33 2024 From: roger arrick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Recovering intel intellec microcomputers, hardware and software Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 15:52:23 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <173002361326.4006402.18188669931329446538@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5359134307868301785==" --===============5359134307868301785== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In related news: I have a restored MDS888 (800) and an MDSII, both can run ISIS-II and CP/M https://www.rogerarrick.com/mds888/ [https://www.rogerarrick.com/mds888/mds888_system_1000.jpg] RogerArrick.com Intel MDS888 MDS800 Development System www.rogerarrick.com There's a group for Intellec on FB: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1929894570383916 -- Roger Arrick -- Tyler, Texas, USA -- Roger(a)Arrick.com -- ________________________________ From: jonesthechip--- via cctalk Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2024 5:06 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: jonesthechip(a)logicmagic.co.uk Subject: [cctalk] Recovering intel intellec microcomputers, hardware and soft= ware As the venerable intellec microcomputers have reached their half-century, I'm= interested in contacting other owners/collectors to try and obtain original = assembler tapes (or their contents) to enable restoration of systems to full = working order. My particular interest is in the intellec 4 mod 40 (I've rebui= lt the one I used in college, 1975-1977) but I don't have the original softwa= re, supplied on paper tape. I've also been in contact with other owners and p= eople interested in making replicas of the intellec 8 and mod 80 systems, and= there's a lack of info on the the ROM monitors. Given the historical significance of these fine machines (and my personal ann= oyance at the lack of foresight I had as a callow postgraduate regarding hang= ing on to copies of paper tape) I'd like to put a shout out to see if any of = this information/software is available in a historical nook or cranny somewhe= re in the computing world and try to gather it together to help complete syst= ems and share the techniques used when 4K of RAM was a really big, expensive = and rather hot deal.... --===============5359134307868301785==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Sun Oct 27 16:37:21 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 17:28:39 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8995610358282409804==" --===============8995610358282409804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys, I've got a bunch of TMS32020 and two TMS320C25 Chips and I want to play with them a little :-) Is the old DOS (orf VMS?) Software still available from somewhere? (Yes, I have an VS4000-90 under the desk..long time ago since I've last booted it, but ...simh also exists). I'm looking for assembler, linker and the simulator that was abailable when those chips came out (1986...) but I can't find any occurences of that old stuff anymore. Was a C compiler available for those old DSP's? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============8995610358282409804==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Sun Oct 27 17:08:26 2024 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 17:08:18 +0000 Message-ID: <265234155.10902221.1730048898983@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <216dd4b0-189f-4006-80b8-0b4dce56386f@dunnington.plus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8684830796036122220==" --===============8684830796036122220== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>On 27/10/2024 13:55, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: >> >> Can anyone identify the 14" HDD seen in the following photo (not mine)? >> It's unusual in that there are two moving heads on the top surface of the >> platter.=C2=A0 I presume that there's a fixed head on the bottom surface f= or the >> clock track.=C2=A0 This is from a Data General 6100 disc subsystem which is >> advertised as 25MB capacity.=C2=A0 There's a related model with half that >> capacity. >> >> https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?attachments/img_5116-jpeg.1288418 > > >It's a Fujitsu drive and has an SMD interface, but I don't know what model. I can't access the image via this link since I don't have a login for that pa= ge,=20 but if it's a Fujitsu SMD drive with 14", then it can only by a M2284, M2294 = or M2298. They didn't do more models than that with 14" platters. And they indeed have to heads per platter side. http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/fujitsu/disk/M228X/B03P-4580= -0100A_M228x_Apr81.pdf Cheers,=20 Pierre --===============8684830796036122220==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun Oct 27 17:34:36 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Recovering intel intellec microcomputers, hardware and software Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 17:34:18 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <173002361326.4006402.18188669931329446538@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4172442565054281882==" --===============4172442565054281882== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 27, 2024 at 5:15=E2=80=AFPM jonesthechip--- via cctalk wrote: > > As the venerable intellec microcomputers have reached their half-century, I= 'm interested in contacting other owners/collectors to try and obtain origina= l assembler tapes (or their contents) to enable restoration of systems to ful= l working order. My particular interest is in the intellec 4 mod 40 (I've reb= uilt the one I used in college, 1975-1977) but I don't have the original soft= ware, supplied on paper tape. I've also been in contact with other owners and= people interested in making replicas of the intellec 8 and mod 80 systems, a= nd there's a lack of info on the the ROM monitors. I have a mod80 system with a minor fault that I must get round to fixing (it jusr involves replacing an obscure 82xx multiplexer chip on the front panel). I used it seriously a month or so ago to read out some 1702A EPROMs. I have a dump of the ROM monitor if you want it, but no other offical software for the machine. -tony --===============4172442565054281882==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Sun Oct 27 17:44:07 2024 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 17:43:54 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9095135695843469767==" --===============9095135695843469767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have the starter kit user software for the TMS320C5x if that helps. I need = to archive those disks if I remember. I pulled them out of the scrap pile in = my first year of university=20 > On 27 Oct 2024, at 16:37, Holm Tiffe via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi guys, >=20 > I've got a bunch of TMS32020 and two TMS320C25 Chips and I want to play > with them a little :-) >=20 > Is the old DOS (orf VMS?) Software still available from somewhere? > (Yes, I have an VS4000-90 under the desk..long time ago since I've last > booted it, but ...simh also exists). >=20 > I'm looking for assembler, linker and the simulator that was abailable > when those chips came out (1986...) but I can't find any occurences > of that old stuff anymore. > Was a C compiler available for those old DSP's? >=20 > Regards, > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 > info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >=20 --===============9095135695843469767==-- From rickb@bensene.com Sun Oct 27 18:02:18 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: GE Mark I/Mark II Timeshare Systems Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 18:02:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0243996753953832173==" --===============0243996753953832173== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 1:35 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: ... > If anyone out there had experience with=20 > GE timeshared systems, or may know of existence of any distribution=20 > media or source listings of the systems, or perhaps has memories of using t= hem, I'd > love to read about it.=20 ... Bill D. wrote: > I believe they used straight-up Dartmouth BASIC, but maybe that's obvious a= nd does not need to be=20 > stated. =20 From all I've been able to determine by reading documentation for the systems= on Bitsavers (thanks, Al!), the early versions may well have been Dartmouth = BASIC as it was run there, but GE kept refining and adding features to BASIC,= and by the time the Mark II systems came along, it was substantially differe= nt code. > I have a paper tape exercise saved by someone who took intro training in u= se of the system,=20 > with the intro brochure materials, etc. When I printed the paper tape it c= ontained BASIC code and=20 > the output. The first time I printed the tape it was upside down, with con= fusing results! I can believe it probably looked like it was some kind of binary executable w= ith the tape upside-down. I'm sure that the introductory materials presente= d examples of code that were very vanilla Dartmouth BASIC...LET, FOR/NEXT, IN= PUT, PRINT, READ, DATA, etc. > Sorry I don't have the actual BASIC but it very well may be a simH GE mini = tape file(s) out there GE > 225 or 235. I seem to remember seeing this but d= id not find after a quick google search just now. As far as I know, there's no simulation for any of the General Electric CPUs = available under SimH or other commonly known vintage computer simulators. Th= ere may be tape image files floating around somewhere, but so far I haven't b= een able to find anything that appears to be relevant. The early versions of the GE Timesharing environment provided three different= language processors that were able to be run simultaneously on the system. = Of course, there was BASIC. But, there was also a FORTRAN compiler, as well = as ALGOL. Indications are that all of these were compiler-based, such that = actual machine code was generated when a program was run. I have found refer= ence to the ability to be able to save the compiled code as an executable tha= t could run (mostly) standalone, although there was a runtime library that th= e executable would link to that provided common math processing and I/O routi= nes. This made the GE systems more flexible than the HP Timeshared system, = as the HP TSB systems only supported BASIC. DEC's more advanced timeshared= operating systems were capable of supporting multiple languages by design. The more I'm learning about the GE timeshared systems, it seems that it'd be = a bit of an endeavor to simulate them, as both the main computer (executive) = and the communications processor have shared connections to the disk controll= er, as well as a two-way channel for communication between the executive and = front-end CPUs.=20 The front-end machine does considerably more in the GE environment than it do= es in the HP Timeshared BASIC environment. The front-end processor parses co= mpleted lines of user input, and if there is a command such as generating a d= isk catalog (directory listing), it would use its access to disk to pull the = catalog and generate the output to the user without bothering the executive p= rocessor.=20 The dual-port access to the disk controller did not allow simultaneous access= from both the executive and communications processor. Priority was placed o= n disk access requests from the communications processor, with the executive = processor having to wait for access to the disk if the communications process= or was busy accessing it. =20 One of the "spare time" tasks the communications processor took care of was t= o maintain terminal status data on the disk that was read the executive proce= ssor so the exec would know if a user's session dropped unexpectedly so it co= uld perform the necessary cleanup operations for the user's process running o= n the executive. I also believe that the communications processor performed = user login and credential validation locally by accessing the user catalog ar= ea on disk. =20 The GE communications front-end CPU ran a multi-tasking monitor that had high= -priority tasks that watched the communications lines for activity (ring, car= rier detect, carrier loss, etc.) and serial data bit transitions (yes, it use= d bit-banging for the terminal I/O) and accumulating input/output bytes. Low= er-priority "spare time" tasks were used for doing things like sending a comp= leted command line or program statement that couldn't be handled locally off = to the executive CPU for processing, as well as sending output generated by e= ither the executive processor or itself to the user's terminal. It made more sense back in the mid-1960's when the architecture was designed = to use a software-based UART rather than using hardware to handle the serial = data streams, because hardware to do the job for each terminal would have bee= n prohibitively expensive, as MOS/LSI UARTs didn't yet exist. Implementing a= UART with small or even medium-scale DTL/TTL requires quite a few devices, a= nd given that the Mark I systems could support upwards of 40 simultaneous use= rs, using hardware to accumulate the bits (including start and stop bits) fro= m each communication line would have amounted to a lot of hardware. I am not= aware if the later Mark II systems kept with using bit-banging, or if hardwa= re became available to handle the serial I/O. The communications processor in the HP Timeshared BASIC systems just managed = the communications, and had no access to the disk/drum store. Nor did it hav= e any understanding of the data coming in from the user...it just accumulated= it in local buffers and passed completed lines of input to the main processo= r for it to handle, as well as sending output generated by the main processor= to the user terminals. I am not aware if the HP communications multiplexor= s interrupted the communications processor on each serial data signal transit= ion, or if they had hardware to accumulate bytes to/from terminals. =20 All of DECs timeshared operating systems ran on one processor, putting both t= he I/O and language processing/compute on the same machine. However, DEC use= d hardware UARTs for serial I/O, removing the burden of bit-banging, which is= likely why they were able to put everyone on one CPU. Even early TSS/8 that= ran on the PDP 8 mini with a high-speed fixed head disk ran entirely on one = CPU. RSTS/E and RSX ran on single CPU PDP 11s and could handle a substantial = number of simultaneous users. =20 Simulating the shared disk drive along with the inter-processor link of the G= E timeshared environment, and getting the timing right could be a challenge. = The communications processor had an interrupt that would trigger every 9.09mS= to scan all of the terminal lines at every bit-time (110 baud) to read the l= ogic level of each, and accumulate bytes in a local buffer for each terminal.= When a line of input had been accumulated(e.g., terminated with a carriage-= return), the communications processor would parse it to determine whether it = was a command that it could process locally (like a disk catalog command) or = if it needed to send it off to the executive processor for handling.=20 If the input required attention from the executive processor, the communicati= ons processor would schedule a "spare time" task to send a message to the exe= cutive processor over the inter-processor communications interface, letting t= he executive know that there was a line of input ready for it to receive. I know that there were some tricky aspects of getting the timing and interloc= ks right on the HP 21xx simulation when the inter-processor communication int= erface was used to connect two CPUs together. Given the added complexity of = the GE environment, with both shared access to the disk, as well as an inter-= processor communications interface, could be significantly more difficult, bu= t that's just assumption on my part. A lot would depend on just exactly how = much brains were in the dual-port disk controller, as well as in the inter-pr= ocessor interface. =20 Simulating all of this may not be possible at the CPU timing level. It may r= equire that I/O processor be emulated rather than simulated down to the CPU l= evel, as it may be too intensive to try to simulate and get all of the timing= right given that the simulation would need to run on a large variety of proc= essors and operating systems. AFAIK simulating bit-banging isn't really poss= ible in any case given the comparatively smart serial interfaces of modern co= mputers. All in all, I truly believe that the historical significance of the GE Timesh= aring Systems is such that if any of the code survives anywhere to this day, = it needs to be captured and archived in a form that perhaps someone with much= more programming skill and time than I would embark on a project to bring th= e systems back to life through a simulation/emulation. =20 The GE 200-series and 400-series computers were historically significant in t= heir own right, with the machines being involved in developing the ERMA syste= m that created the way that bank drafts (checks) are encoded with magnetic in= k characters that are readable by machine to allow full automation of check p= rocessing at bank clearing houses. Of course, the development of BASIC at D= artmouth was a huge historical point, seeded by GE providing a 225 and a Data= net 30 communications processor to the institution. =20 I found DTSS.org/DTSS, a website that has an emulation of an early version of= Dartmouth's DTSS timesharing system. It appears to be broken (I tried to r= egister as a new user, and it threw a ASP error), but the introduction page s= ays that the Datanet-30 is emulated, but the executive processor actually run= s a simulation of the 225 down to the instruction level(in Java), and the BAS= IC Language Processor, as well as the kernel that runs on the 225 were extrac= ted from listings that the authors of the emulator have or had access to that= were scanned/OCRd. It is stated that they had listings of the Dartmouth ALG= OL language processor, but had not yet implemented it. So, at least something is out there that could potentially serve as the basis= for simulation of the executive processor, and potentially some original sou= rce listings for the DTSS versions of BASIC and ALGOL =20 This code could potentially serve as the basis for running some of the later = GE production timesharing systems, however, that would be fully dependent on = whether any of the GE production timeshare system code is still out there any= where, as well as whether the authors of the simulation/emulation were willin= g to share. There did not appear to be any links on the pages I looked thro= ugh to contact the authors.=20 Maybe someone on the list knows of some of the GE code that may still exist s= omewhere so it can at least be archived somewhere like Bitsavers. =20 --===============0243996753953832173==-- From pbirkel@gmail.com Sun Oct 27 18:31:34 2024 From: pbirkel@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 14:31:28 -0400 Message-ID: <06c901db289e$7031fe70$5095fb50$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <216dd4b0-189f-4006-80b8-0b4dce56386f@dunnington.plus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6341675781820681460==" --===============6341675781820681460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Turnbull via cctalk =20 > Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2024 11:38 AM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Pete Turnbull > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm > > On 27/10/2024 13:55, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > Can anyone identify the 14" HDD seen in the following photo (not mine)? > > It's unusual in that there are two moving heads on the top surface of=20 > > the platter. I presume that there's a fixed head on the bottom=20 > > surface for the clock track. This is from a Data General 6100 disc=20 > > subsystem which is advertised as 25MB capacity. There's a related=20 > > model with half that capacity. > > > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?attachments/img_5116-jpeg.1288418 > > It's a Fujitsu drive and has an SMD interface, but I don't know what model. > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull According to https://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/disk/FujitsuDriveList.txt = as Pierre notes it would then have to be one of these three: M2284N 160MB 14" SMD=20 M2294N 330MB 14" SMD M2298N 498MB 14" SMD All are multi-platter drives, and all with way too _much_ capacity; the one o= n the photo is only 25MB. It looks like a single-platter drive to me, and it= doesn't much look like the diagrams in B03P-4580-0100A_M228x_Apr81.pdf, even= after ignoring the multi-platter aspect. So I don't think that it's a Fujits= u. It seems to me that it must be another manufacturer. The VCF thread containing the image and context is here: https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/nova-4-x-restoration.1250317/#post-= 1411885 ----- --===============6341675781820681460==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Sun Oct 27 18:49:51 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 19:49:40 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLO2P123MB3998D9E2B8F9073DC3535FF8A8492=40LO2P123MB?= =?utf-8?q?3998=2EGBRP123=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0914335734080493464==" --===============0914335734080493464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May be it helps, maybe not. I don't know how this software may be configurable to build code for the older processors, but Yes, I'm interested in a copy of that sw and will try what I can do with it. TIA, Holm jake utley via cctalk wrote: > I have the starter kit user software for the TMS320C5x if that helps. I nee= d to archive those disks if I remember. I pulled them out of the scrap pile i= n my first year of university=20 >=20 > > On 27 Oct 2024, at 16:37, Holm Tiffe via cctalk = wrote: > >=20 > > =EF=BB=BFHi guys, > >=20 > > I've got a bunch of TMS32020 and two TMS320C25 Chips and I want to play > > with them a little :-) > >=20 > > Is the old DOS (orf VMS?) Software still available from somewhere? > > (Yes, I have an VS4000-90 under the desk..long time ago since I've last > > booted it, but ...simh also exists). > >=20 > > I'm looking for assembler, linker and the simulator that was abailable > > when those chips came out (1986...) but I can't find any occurences > > of that old stuff anymore. > > Was a C compiler available for those old DSP's? > >=20 > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > > Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 > > info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > >=20 --=20 Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,=20 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============0914335734080493464==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Sun Oct 27 19:44:54 2024 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:35:53 -0700 Message-ID: <35f0905b-cfe6-4254-93a6-9489444cf232@mainecoon.com> In-Reply-To: <265234155.10902221.1730048898983@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1484229806362082207==" --===============1484229806362082207== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/27/24 10:08, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > I can't access the image via this link since I don't have a login for that = page, > but if it's a Fujitsu SMD drive with 14", then it can only by a M2284, M229= 4 or M2298. > They didn't do more models than that with 14" platters. > And they indeed have to heads per platter side. It's not a Fuji; the 6100 "Echo" disk is only 25MB, and all of the 14"=20 Fujis are an order of magnitude greater than that. If memory serves, the 6100 was a weird combo of a 6103 or 6105 disk=20 (maybe from Micro Products) and a 6096 Micro Products quad density=20 floppy (as opposed to the 6097, which was also quad density, but=20 unspecified manufacturer). --=20 Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration=E2=80=A6" --===============1484229806362082207==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Sun Oct 27 20:54:47 2024 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RQDX3 Formatter Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 16:16:55 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0705980447966611796==" --===============0705980447966611796== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Oct 27, 2024 at 09:32:00AM -0400, Peter Ekstrom wrote: > Is there such a > thing as an MFM drive emulator that would plug in to the RQDX3 as > a real drive would? > Yes. https://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/ --===============0705980447966611796==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Oct 27 21:26:49 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 16:26:42 -0500 Message-ID: <1a6a3a24-f8eb-42e3-7cd9-725fa6bbd609@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7901125848593300505==" --===============7901125848593300505== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/27/24 11:28, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've got a bunch of TMS32020 and two TMS320C25 Chips and I want to play > with them a little :-) > > Is the old DOS (orf VMS?) Software still available from somewhere? > (Yes, I have an VS4000-90 under the desk..long time ago since I've last > booted it, but ...simh also exists). > My 2000-vintage pick and place machine has a number of these 320XX series DSPs in it to process camera images.  I seem to recall they are a Harvard architecture.  I never did any programming on them. Jon --===============7901125848593300505==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Sun Oct 27 21:29:30 2024 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 21:29:16 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1a6a3a24-f8eb-42e3-7cd9-725fa6bbd609@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5521814800437242700==" --===============5521814800437242700== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ll make images of them if needed but I think I have already. If I h= ave then I=E2=80=99ll put the software up on archive.org > On 27 Oct 2024, at 21:26, Jon Elson via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 10/27/24 11:28, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: >> Hi guys, >>=20 >> I've got a bunch of TMS32020 and two TMS320C25 Chips and I want to play >> with them a little :-) >>=20 >> Is the old DOS (orf VMS?) Software still available from somewhere? >> (Yes, I have an VS4000-90 under the desk..long time ago since I've last >> booted it, but ...simh also exists). >>=20 > My 2000-vintage pick and place machine has a number of these 320XX series D= SPs in it to process camera images. I seem to recall they are a Harvard arch= itecture. I never did any programming on them. >=20 > Jon >=20 --===============5521814800437242700==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Sun Oct 27 21:51:34 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:51:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1a6a3a24-f8eb-42e3-7cd9-725fa6bbd609@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4959615445951781874==" --===============4959615445951781874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/27/24 11:28, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > > Hi guys, > > > > I've got a bunch of TMS32020 and two TMS320C25 Chips and I want to play > > with them a little :-) > > > > Is the old DOS (orf VMS?) Software still available from somewhere? > > (Yes, I have an VS4000-90 under the desk..long time ago since I've last > > booted it, but ...simh also exists). > > > My 2000-vintage pick and place machine has a number of these 320XX series > DSPs in it to process camera images.  I seem to recall they are a Harvard > architecture.  I never did any programming on them. > > Jon ...a modified Havard Architecture...you can write Program memory and can execute it, there is only one Data Bus. Thefirst TMS320's are very limited with the really small hardware stack that has only a few levels. No deep subroutine calls, no interrupt cascading, no recursion. There is some Software routine published that moves the HW Stack contents to the external RAM ..maybe a link register would be better? Don't know about later TMS's, for soure that got fixed fast.. I've found that a C Compiler for the TMS320C25 was available, the TMS32020 isn't mentioned in that regard. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============4959615445951781874==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Sun Oct 27 21:52:19 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:52:08 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLO2P123MB3998B5CDBD9C39748E5873F2A8492=40LO2P123MB?= =?utf-8?q?3998=2EGBRP123=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8361618841950724498==" --===============8361618841950724498== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please drop me a line if you do that.. THX, Holm jake utley via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99ll make images of them if needed but I think I have already. If I= have then I=E2=80=99ll put the software up on archive.org > > On 27 Oct 2024, at 21:26, Jon Elson via cctalk = wrote: > >=20 > > =EF=BB=BFOn 10/27/24 11:28, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi guys, > >>=20 > >> I've got a bunch of TMS32020 and two TMS320C25 Chips and I want to play > >> with them a little :-) > >>=20 > >> Is the old DOS (orf VMS?) Software still available from somewhere? > >> (Yes, I have an VS4000-90 under the desk..long time ago since I've last > >> booted it, but ...simh also exists). > >>=20 > > My 2000-vintage pick and place machine has a number of these 320XX series= DSPs in it to process camera images. I seem to recall they are a Harvard ar= chitecture. I never did any programming on them. > >=20 > > Jon > >=20 --=20 Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,=20 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============8361618841950724498==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Oct 27 22:47:58 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OS2 on a ThinkPad Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 17:47:42 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172996504062.4006402.5775733197697923026@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0703429889165300985==" --===============0703429889165300985== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As somewhat OS/2 related, here is that result of SecondReality running under OS/2. Also a sort of 386/486 hardware comparison. A '386, '486 and a Pentium go to a bar together and encounter a Commander X16 Just for fun, view it with cc commentary on for the "dialog" story. On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 12:50 PM David Schmidt via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Steve Lewis wrote: > > I'll do a write up on the adventure soon-ish, I'm still trying to figure > > out the TCP/IP settings stuff for OS/2. > > You stand a much better chance of getting OS/2 drivers for IBM-produced > machines than just about anyone else's, but hat's off to you for getting it > done. > > I (and I'm sure lots of others) can help if you need it navigating > LAPS/MPTS/TCP/IP settings. The stack is coming from a much more naive era > with respect to security; you probably don't want to set up an FTP server, > for example. ;-) > > - David > --===============0703429889165300985==-- From Bruce@Wild-Hare.com Sun Oct 27 22:59:22 2024 From: Bruce Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 17:01:53 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <065d01db2877$f12fc2e0$d38f48a0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8437034513543855372==" --===============8437034513543855372== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In 1979 Data General started manufacturing its own two line of 14" Winchester disk drives - a 12.5 MB [Model 6099] and a 25.5 MB [Model 6103] version. A "quad-density" 1.2 MB 8" floppy diskette drive or two were often part of the system for installation and backup purposes. There is usually an ID plate on the back of the disk drive that contains the model number and DG Product number (i.e. 005-xxxxx-yy) of that specific unit. Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 10/27/2024 7:55 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone identify the 14" HDD seen in the following photo (not mine)? > It's unusual in that there are two moving heads on the top surface of the > platter. I presume that there's a fixed head on the bottom surface for the > clock track. This is from a Data General 6100 disc subsystem which is > advertised as 25MB capacity. There's a related model with half that > capacity. > > > > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?attachments/img_5116-jpeg.1288418 > > > > The only thing that I can say for sure is that it's visually not a Shugart > SA4000 and that exhausts my knowledge on the subject.. > > > > While I presume that the 25-signal twisted-pair ribbon cable is for control > signals, there is also a 16(?) line grey ribbon cable connected to the left > side of the DG-specific power control PCB. I'm guessing that would be > data/clock lines from hidden electronics where the 25-signal twisted-pair > ribbon originates; not sure what else may be then happening on the > DG-specific power control PCB. > > > > Thank you for any insights into manufacturer, model, and documentation. > > > > -paul > --===============8437034513543855372==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon Oct 28 05:05:13 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 00:04:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <61883f94-5f1f-4588-8c22-9ff9e651f9b0@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0530228962280864129==" --===============0530228962280864129== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thomas, Those images for the SHARP PC-5000 boot disk of MS-DOS 2.00 have worked splendidly (at least the .IMD files, DiskImage is all I tried). I did have to change the IMD Settings to Sides Two, Double-step On, and the 250kps to 300kps. I don't fully understand that last setting, but absolutely it was necessary - the IMD image file wouldn't write to disk otherwise. That did contain the FORMAT.COM (as you mentioned), which I then used to format a few other disks. There is no /? help on that early build of FORMAT. But /s would transfer system files, and /8 would format to a 320KB disk (that was a 320KB bootable disk, but a regular 360KB was bootable as well). Not that I'll need 320KB formatted disks, but just interesting that it can boot from either format. In the disk image share is CE-101FA.jpg that appears to be the front cover of the MS-DOS manual. In a parts listing for this system, I see a line item "CE-100F MS-DOS diskette and manual $25.00" The User Manual that I have only covers some DOS commands (DIR, MKDIR, DEL, and batch commands like IF, FOR, REM), but on the MS-DOS 2.00 disks are some extra things like CREF.COM, KEYBFR.COM. Any chance anyone has this CE-100F manual digitized? It might cover the MS-DOS programs and their arguments. Thanks again Thomas, the drives and boot images are working great! -Steve On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 1:50=E2=80=AFPM osi.superboard via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > I think I can help you. > I have a PC-5000 disk image of a double-sided 5.25 disk (360kb format) > called CE-101FA on my Google Drive. > > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qo6A3ZzkOHzxh5M5XEjqcKPP2F63Zi9P?us= p=3Dsharing > > The images were created with a Greazweasel. For test read twice, but > identical in both cases. > The disk files can be found in the Disk_Image directory. Including > Format and Basic and Macro Assembler and so on. Also various image > formats for creating disks. > > Enjoy > > Thomas > > On 20.10.2024 08:03, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Mike!! Oh I was so nervous taking it apart - I was thinking of > you, > > and worrying about how I'm probably going to end up having to sadly > explain > > why this system doesn't work anymore. But 'lo and behold, I did manage > to > > get it back together! (notes are in my PC-5000 page linked earlier, > which > > is now a bit long winded for a single page - I'll spit it out > eventually). > > > > > > I was trying to go after the CMOS battery, or its equivalent - but wow, > > Sharp made that very difficult. As you'll see in the photos, the > > component side of the mainboard is actually pointed down. Since this is > > still very much a working system, I didn't feel comfortable completely > > disassembling it - you have to get the entire mainboard out. But I got > to > > the vicinity of the area at least. On the positive, my thinking is that > > since the battery is "inverted" from normal and pointing towards the > ground > > - if it does leak, it'll just leak into the plastic base of the system. > > > > With the disk drives, I can now get new software onto the system more > > easily. But, looks like I'll have to give up on making a boot disk > floppy > > for the system. I've added a ton of notes to my PC-5000 page about it. > > > > > > @Fred Cisin - I did manage to digest and follow your DEBUG.COM advise, > and > > it all did work (in getting past "incorrect DOS version"). But when it > > came to the business of actually executing a format, they still did not > > work. As others have suspect, we're just going to need to find that > > original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 boot disk someday. In poking around the > MS-DOS > > 2.00 source code on github, it actually doesn't have a pre-built > FORMAT.COM > > - instead it has a FORMAT.DOC file that describes notes on what is > expected > > for an OEM vendor to implement to support doing a format. While we did > > finally find a format that allows SYS.COM to work, it's still > mysterious on > > why the (bootable) bubble memory report 6 hidden files, but a SYS'd disk > is > > only reporting 2 hidden files (I think someone else here did cover that, > in > > suggesting some vendors did need extra files to fully implementation > their > > DOS?) So it's been a valiant effort, but I'm content enough just being > > able to move files on/off the system via disks - meanwhile we'll just > hunt > > for that original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 image, it surely is somewhere "out > > there" eventually. > > (again, notes on this are on my PC-5000 page - but the short of it is: > > - MS-DOS 1.25 FORMAT.COM didn't care about version but didn't even try > to > > actually format (locked up) > > - (Sharp) MS-DOS 2.11 FORMAT.COM was patched, and would show help on > > command line arguments, but wouldn't actually run when given /2 /8 or /S, > > etc. > > - MS-DOS 3.30 FORMAT.COM was patched, but declared the target drive as > > ASSIGNed or SUBSTed and refused to proceed > > > > > > The disk controller interface on this system just isn't "PC Compatible" > > enough. > > > > -SL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 12:43=E2=80=AFPM Mike Stein wrote: > > > >> Great to see my old PC5000 receiving so much loving attention; thanks > >> Steve! > >> > >> FWIW, related to the discussion elsewhere about BBSs, that PC5000 was > >> originally owned by Canada Remote Systems, a smaller Canadian version of > >> Compuserve based here in Toronto, It was a fairly large (by Canadian > >> standards) commercial BBS system of the 80s and 90s, noted primarily for > >> its extensive file collection; I think I still have some of their > >> collection disks on 8" media somewhere. > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 10:05=E2=80=AFAM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Some interesting things (on PC-5000): > >>> > >>> - I copied over QMATH, and old command line "parsing-calculator" I did > in > >>> Turbo Pascal decades ago (probably about 1992, so post MSDOS5 at > least), > >>> and it runs on the PC-5000! It's packaged in my "VUC" tools here > (along > >>> with CDIR) voidstar78/VUC4DOS: voidstar Utility Collection for > (MS/DR/PC) > >>> DOS (github.com) > >>> That just speaks well to the PC-5000 really being MS-DOS compatible > (and > >>> that it ran an executable from a much later generation of MS-DOS). > Note > >>> that CDIR itself doesn't run on that MS-DOS 2.00 system (I suspect > >>> anything > >>> that "touches color" won't run, based on trying to run a few other > similar > >>> type things) > >>> > >>> - VER is saying MS-DOS 2.00, same as the startup/bootup note. Though > it > >>> does say the "Command v2.02" shortly after (I suspect as it is loading > the > >>> command.com, or in any case just prior to invoking autoexec.bat) > >>> > >>> - I don't have a "native" DEBUG.COM for 2.X yet (and ended up in a bad > >>> time > >>> that archive.org is majorly down again). And trying to run DEBUG.COM > >>> from > >>> 3.30 disks on the PC-5000 just says "Incorrect DOS version" (was we've > >>> discussed, which as mentioned I'll have to debug the debug.com on > another > >>> system first to patch it) > >>> > >>> I'll dig into the .COM patching later, have some errands this weekend > >>> first. Plus, it turns out I "blew up" my parallel port *again*. > Modern > >>> day, we take it for granted about USB being hot-swappable. Well, > >>> parallel-ports apparently aren't that forgiving - and I keep forgetting > >>> that. I've zapped two parallel cards now while swapping between > parallel > >>> devices. (which I'm making good progress figuring out the "retro > >>> printer" > >>> that will emulator old printers and let us print from old software and > go > >>> straight to a PDF, but still working on it) The LPT devices > themselves > >>> are fine, just I really heard the electrical pop and just the parallel > >>> port > >>> is absolutely dead (everything else seems fine though) > >>> > >>> More to report later, but was excited that "something from the future" > >>> (qmath.exe built almost a decade after the PC-5000 was sold) worked. > >>> > >>> > >>> -SteveL > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:35=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I follow all that (on the DEBUG.COM notes) and appreciate the notes > - > >>>> that > >>>>> will save some time, I look forward to trying a few things out > >>> tomorrow. > >>>>> I forgot to do VER explicitly, but on boot up it is saying MS-DOS > >>> 2.00. > >>>>> And just now, I recalled that on github there is MS-DOS source (and > >>>> bins) - > >>>>> I think Dave's Garage, he recently did a video on building and > booting > >>>>> MS-DOS 4.0 from that source. Maybe I should use this as an excuse > to > >>>> try > >>>>> a 2.0 build? Or least, reading through the FORMAT.ASM, I see all > >>> the > >>>>> DOSVER checking stuff - helps confirm patch addresses, or maybe try > >>> just > >>>>> recompiling that one utility without this check. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Reading through the CONFIG.txt in the MS-DOS 2.0 github repo, it's > >>>>> interesting near the end: (the use of forward slash instead of > >>>> backslash, > >>>>> ha! and just above this, the comments mention /dev/) > >>>>> > >>>>> "A typical configuration file might look like this: > >>>>> > >>>>> BUFFERS =3D 10 > >>>>> FILES =3D 10 > >>>>> DEVICE =3D /bin/network.sys > >>>>> BREAK =3D ON > >>>>> SWITCHAR =3D - > >>>>> SHELL =3D a:/bin/command.com a:/bin -p" > >>>> GOOD > >>>> So, you should be able to patch FORMAT 2.11 ti work on the DOS version > >>>> that is running. > >>>> > >>>> BUT, whether Format /S or SYS will work remains to be seen. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I have seen cases where the opening banner does not quite match the > >>> stored > >>>> version number, such as 4.01 V 4.00 > >>>> and a conditional jmp needs an exact match. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> So, definitely run VER > >>>> > >>>> and/or > >>>> in debug A(Assemble) > >>>> > >>>> MOV AH,30 > >>>> INT 21 > >>>> INT 3 ; ends program and displays registers > >>>> > >>>> and see what it shows in AX > >>>> (running that in CMD of my Windows 7 gives 0005 (5.00)!) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> One of the early homework assignments when I taught PC Assembly was to > >>> go > >>>> into DEBUG and patch LINK.EXE and EXE2BIN.EXE to eliminate DOD version > >>>> checking. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > >>>> > --===============0530228962280864129==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Oct 28 05:13:56 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:13:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6988236951986497477==" --===============6988236951986497477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 28 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Thomas, > Those images for the SHARP PC-5000 boot disk of MS-DOS 2.00 have worked > splendidly (at least the .IMD files, DiskImage is all I tried). I did have > to change the IMD Settings to Sides Two, Double-step On, and the 250kps to > 300kps. I don't fully understand that last setting, but absolutely it was > necessary - the IMD image file wouldn't write to disk otherwise. That is because you are writing "320K" disk in a 1.2M drive. double step is to get 40 tracks instead of 80 a 160/180/320/360K drive spins at 300 RPM, and uses 250K data transfer rate. But, a 1.2M drive spins at 360 RPM, so you have to either change the drive to 300 RPM at 250k, OR use the 360RPM at 300K (some drives are dual speed; the FDC has a 300bps rate to compensatefor those that are not.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6988236951986497477==-- From pbirkel@gmail.com Mon Oct 28 08:02:25 2024 From: pbirkel@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 04:02:16 -0400 Message-ID: <07f301db290f$b47757d0$1d660770$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1780750609788848231==" --===============1780750609788848231== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Bruce. Data General actually went into the 14" drive manufacturing bu= siness, platters, heads, positioner, spindle, and all? I've been assuming th= at they sourced the drive assembly OEM and then built their finished product = around that. Yes, the associated 8" FDD is DSDD so "quad"; manufacturer is Qume (842?) in = that particular system. I imagine that DG might have used others. Christian= Kennedy mentioned MPI as the FDD manufacturer (9404B?), and possibly for the= HDD, so I rooted around in the CDC documentation on Bitsavers (thanks Al!) a= nd I see that the 9730 MMD used a dual head per surface configuration and fro= m https://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/CDC_Drive_Models.txt this: Model Media 1st Ship Unformatted Size Name 9730-12 14" 5/77 12.9 F= ixed 9730-24 14" 5/77 25.8 F= ixed That all looks promising, however the technical details don't match very well= unless the unit in the photo is actually 12.5MB capacity [Model 6099] in whi= ch case the 9730-12 matches well with one platter, one servo head (lower surf= ace), and two recording heads (upper surface). The 9730-24 stacks two platte= rs and doubles the number of recording heads (the upper platter has the pair = of heads on the underside). See: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/brochures/CDC_9730_MMD_Brochure_Oct76.pdf= =20 https://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/mmd/64709700r8_MMD_9730-xx_ProdSpec_Mar78= .pdf https://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/brochures/CDC_9730_MMD_Brochure_May79.pdf= =20 The CDC / MPI finished product uses a SMD interface and stacks the drive elec= tronics over the drive assembly. It seems reasonable to conclude that DG acq= uired the drive assembly from MPI and then did their own electronics to a pro= prietary non-SMD interface, which would explain the cabling visible in the ph= oto. The earlier product brochure is October 1976 (and is light on details), MPI s= hips the 9730-12 (finished product) in May 1977, the family engineering spec = (rev 8) is March 1978, the second product brochure is May 1979, and the DG dr= ive assembly in the photo seems to be mid-1981 based on the bad block sticker= . Not sure how much earlier DG introduced the Model 6099 but this seems like= a reasonably consistent timeline. The clear head photos in the second product brochure aren't an exact match, b= ut they are close. Perhaps MPI made some engineering tweaks over the lifespa= n in the drive assembly? Bruce, are you sure that DG didn't OEM the drive assembly from elsewhere, and= in particular MPI? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Ray via cctalk =20 Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2024 7:02 PM To: Paul Birkel via cctalk Cc: Bruce Ray Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm In 1979 Data General started manufacturing its own two line of 14"=20 Winchester disk drives - a 12.5 MB [Model 6099] and a 25.5 MB [Model=20 6103] version. A "quad-density" 1.2 MB 8" floppy diskette drive or two=20 were often part of the system for installation and backup purposes. There is usually an ID plate on the back of the disk drive that contains=20 the model number and DG Product number (i.e. 005-xxxxx-yy) of that specific u= nit. Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org --===============1780750609788848231==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Mon Oct 28 11:04:08 2024 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 11:02:04 +0000 Message-ID: <0d1356cc-040a-4ad3-8ad0-05771fdbd303@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2655447699839250847==" --===============2655447699839250847== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, great to hear that you now can use the external drive and boot from it ! Actually the MS-DOS diskette and manual is in a huge hard cover binder=20 including full documentation of MS-DOS and the Microsoft Macro assembler. I guess this are 250+ pages and no plans to scan it. The image was taken with a 300 RPM drive 40 track DS. And I recommend to=20 write back the image on a 40 track drive, as 80 tracks/double steps=20 wouldn't create a quality disk. Please also consider to use "real" DS DD=20 disks, as HD disks are not suitable for DD disk drives (only if you plan=20 to read only the content). Cheers Thomas On 28.10.2024 05:04, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Thomas, > Those images for the SHARP PC-5000 boot disk of MS-DOS 2.00 have worked > splendidly (at least the .IMD files, DiskImage is all I tried). I did have > to change the IMD Settings to Sides Two, Double-step On, and the 250kps to > 300kps. I don't fully understand that last setting, but absolutely it was > necessary - the IMD image file wouldn't write to disk otherwise. > > That did contain the FORMAT.COM (as you mentioned), which I then used to > format a few other disks. There is no /? help on that early build of > FORMAT. But /s would transfer system files, and /8 would format to a 320KB > disk (that was a 320KB bootable disk, but a regular 360KB was bootable as > well). Not that I'll need 320KB formatted disks, but just interesting > that it can boot from either format. > > In the disk image share is CE-101FA.jpg that appears to be the front cover > of the MS-DOS manual. In a parts listing for this system, I see a line > item > "CE-100F MS-DOS diskette and manual $25.00" > > The User Manual that I have only covers some DOS commands (DIR, MKDIR, DEL, > and batch commands like IF, FOR, REM), but on the MS-DOS 2.00 disks are > some extra things like CREF.COM, KEYBFR.COM. Any chance anyone has this > CE-100F manual digitized? It might cover the MS-DOS programs and their > arguments. > > > Thanks again Thomas, the drives and boot images are working great! > -Steve > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 1:50=E2=80=AFPM osi.superboard via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi Steve, >> >> I think I can help you. >> I have a PC-5000 disk image of a double-sided 5.25 disk (360kb format) >> called CE-101FA on my Google Drive. >> >> >> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qo6A3ZzkOHzxh5M5XEjqcKPP2F63Zi9P?u= sp=3Dsharing >> >> The images were created with a Greazweasel. For test read twice, but >> identical in both cases. >> The disk files can be found in the Disk_Image directory. Including >> Format and Basic and Macro Assembler and so on. Also various image >> formats for creating disks. >> >> Enjoy >> >> Thomas >> >> On 20.10.2024 08:03, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi Mike!! Oh I was so nervous taking it apart - I was thinking of >> you, >>> and worrying about how I'm probably going to end up having to sadly >> explain >>> why this system doesn't work anymore. But 'lo and behold, I did manage >> to >>> get it back together! (notes are in my PC-5000 page linked earlier, >> which >>> is now a bit long winded for a single page - I'll spit it out >> eventually). >>> >>> I was trying to go after the CMOS battery, or its equivalent - but wow, >>> Sharp made that very difficult. As you'll see in the photos, the >>> component side of the mainboard is actually pointed down. Since this is >>> still very much a working system, I didn't feel comfortable completely >>> disassembling it - you have to get the entire mainboard out. But I got >> to >>> the vicinity of the area at least. On the positive, my thinking is that >>> since the battery is "inverted" from normal and pointing towards the >> ground >>> - if it does leak, it'll just leak into the plastic base of the system. >>> >>> With the disk drives, I can now get new software onto the system more >>> easily. But, looks like I'll have to give up on making a boot disk >> floppy >>> for the system. I've added a ton of notes to my PC-5000 page about it. >>> >>> >>> @Fred Cisin - I did manage to digest and follow your DEBUG.COM advise, >> and >>> it all did work (in getting past "incorrect DOS version"). But when it >>> came to the business of actually executing a format, they still did not >>> work. As others have suspect, we're just going to need to find that >>> original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 boot disk someday. In poking around the >> MS-DOS >>> 2.00 source code on github, it actually doesn't have a pre-built >> FORMAT.COM >>> - instead it has a FORMAT.DOC file that describes notes on what is >> expected >>> for an OEM vendor to implement to support doing a format. While we did >>> finally find a format that allows SYS.COM to work, it's still >> mysterious on >>> why the (bootable) bubble memory report 6 hidden files, but a SYS'd disk >> is >>> only reporting 2 hidden files (I think someone else here did cover that, >> in >>> suggesting some vendors did need extra files to fully implementation >> their >>> DOS?) So it's been a valiant effort, but I'm content enough just being >>> able to move files on/off the system via disks - meanwhile we'll just >> hunt >>> for that original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 image, it surely is somewhere "out >>> there" eventually. >>> (again, notes on this are on my PC-5000 page - but the short of it is: >>> - MS-DOS 1.25 FORMAT.COM didn't care about version but didn't even try >> to >>> actually format (locked up) >>> - (Sharp) MS-DOS 2.11 FORMAT.COM was patched, and would show help on >>> command line arguments, but wouldn't actually run when given /2 /8 or /S, >>> etc. >>> - MS-DOS 3.30 FORMAT.COM was patched, but declared the target drive as >>> ASSIGNed or SUBSTed and refused to proceed >>> >>> >>> The disk controller interface on this system just isn't "PC Compatible" >>> enough. >>> >>> -SL >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 12:43=E2=80=AFPM Mike Stein wrote: >>> >>>> Great to see my old PC5000 receiving so much loving attention; thanks >>>> Steve! >>>> >>>> FWIW, related to the discussion elsewhere about BBSs, that PC5000 was >>>> originally owned by Canada Remote Systems, a smaller Canadian version of >>>> Compuserve based here in Toronto, It was a fairly large (by Canadian >>>> standards) commercial BBS system of the 80s and 90s, noted primarily for >>>> its extensive file collection; I think I still have some of their >>>> collection disks on 8" media somewhere. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 10:05=E2=80=AFAM Steve Lewis via cctalk < >>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Some interesting things (on PC-5000): >>>>> >>>>> - I copied over QMATH, and old command line "parsing-calculator" I did >> in >>>>> Turbo Pascal decades ago (probably about 1992, so post MSDOS5 at >> least), >>>>> and it runs on the PC-5000! It's packaged in my "VUC" tools here >> (along >>>>> with CDIR) voidstar78/VUC4DOS: voidstar Utility Collection for >> (MS/DR/PC) >>>>> DOS (github.com) >>>>> That just speaks well to the PC-5000 really being MS-DOS compatible >> (and >>>>> that it ran an executable from a much later generation of MS-DOS). >> Note >>>>> that CDIR itself doesn't run on that MS-DOS 2.00 system (I suspect >>>>> anything >>>>> that "touches color" won't run, based on trying to run a few other >> similar >>>>> type things) >>>>> >>>>> - VER is saying MS-DOS 2.00, same as the startup/bootup note. Though >> it >>>>> does say the "Command v2.02" shortly after (I suspect as it is loading >> the >>>>> command.com, or in any case just prior to invoking autoexec.bat) >>>>> >>>>> - I don't have a "native" DEBUG.COM for 2.X yet (and ended up in a bad >>>>> time >>>>> that archive.org is majorly down again). And trying to run DEBUG.COM >>>>> from >>>>> 3.30 disks on the PC-5000 just says "Incorrect DOS version" (was we've >>>>> discussed, which as mentioned I'll have to debug the debug.com on >> another >>>>> system first to patch it) >>>>> >>>>> I'll dig into the .COM patching later, have some errands this weekend >>>>> first. Plus, it turns out I "blew up" my parallel port *again*. >> Modern >>>>> day, we take it for granted about USB being hot-swappable. Well, >>>>> parallel-ports apparently aren't that forgiving - and I keep forgetting >>>>> that. I've zapped two parallel cards now while swapping between >> parallel >>>>> devices. (which I'm making good progress figuring out the "retro >>>>> printer" >>>>> that will emulator old printers and let us print from old software and >> go >>>>> straight to a PDF, but still working on it) The LPT devices >> themselves >>>>> are fine, just I really heard the electrical pop and just the parallel >>>>> port >>>>> is absolutely dead (everything else seems fine though) >>>>> >>>>> More to report later, but was excited that "something from the future" >>>>> (qmath.exe built almost a decade after the PC-5000 was sold) worked. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -SteveL >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:35=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk < >>>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I follow all that (on the DEBUG.COM notes) and appreciate the notes >> - >>>>>> that >>>>>>> will save some time, I look forward to trying a few things out >>>>> tomorrow. >>>>>>> I forgot to do VER explicitly, but on boot up it is saying MS-DOS >>>>> 2.00. >>>>>>> And just now, I recalled that on github there is MS-DOS source (and >>>>>> bins) - >>>>>>> I think Dave's Garage, he recently did a video on building and >> booting >>>>>>> MS-DOS 4.0 from that source. Maybe I should use this as an excuse >> to >>>>>> try >>>>>>> a 2.0 build? Or least, reading through the FORMAT.ASM, I see all >>>>> the >>>>>>> DOSVER checking stuff - helps confirm patch addresses, or maybe try >>>>> just >>>>>>> recompiling that one utility without this check. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reading through the CONFIG.txt in the MS-DOS 2.0 github repo, it's >>>>>>> interesting near the end: (the use of forward slash instead of >>>>>> backslash, >>>>>>> ha! and just above this, the comments mention /dev/) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "A typical configuration file might look like this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BUFFERS =3D 10 >>>>>>> FILES =3D 10 >>>>>>> DEVICE =3D /bin/network.sys >>>>>>> BREAK =3D ON >>>>>>> SWITCHAR =3D - >>>>>>> SHELL =3D a:/bin/command.com a:/bin -p" >>>>>> GOOD >>>>>> So, you should be able to patch FORMAT 2.11 ti work on the DOS version >>>>>> that is running. >>>>>> >>>>>> BUT, whether Format /S or SYS will work remains to be seen. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have seen cases where the opening banner does not quite match the >>>>> stored >>>>>> version number, such as 4.01 V 4.00 >>>>>> and a conditional jmp needs an exact match. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So, definitely run VER >>>>>> >>>>>> and/or >>>>>> in debug A(Assemble) >>>>>> >>>>>> MOV AH,30 >>>>>> INT 21 >>>>>> INT 3 ; ends program and displays registers >>>>>> >>>>>> and see what it shows in AX >>>>>> (running that in CMD of my Windows 7 gives 0005 (5.00)!) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> One of the early homework assignments when I taught PC Assembly was to >>>>> go >>>>>> into DEBUG and patch LINK.EXE and EXE2BIN.EXE to eliminate DOD version >>>>>> checking. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >>>>>> --===============2655447699839250847==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon Oct 28 13:42:36 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 08:42:17 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0807683556201555888==" --===============0807683556201555888== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > That is because you are writing "320K" disk in a 1.2M drive. > double step is to get 40 tracks instead of 80 Makes sense, thanks. I wasn't 100% sure if this was a 1.2M drive or not. How difficult is it to change a drive? And could it go the other way, upping a 360K stock drive to support 1.2M? I imagine it's not as easy as jumper settings- but a matter of voltage divider maybe? I don't want to void my warranty (joking!! :) ) I think I've heard of people altering their drives, I just hadn't seen it done. I guess another 5.25 related question comes to mind - when a new system was delivered, they had (cardboard?) inserts into the drives. Was that more to protect them during transport/delivery? Or a dust protection? or both? For long term storage (maybe 6+ months?) should we put inserts back into our 5.25 drives? -Steve On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 12:30 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > Thomas, > > Those images for the SHARP PC-5000 boot disk of MS-DOS 2.00 have worked > > splendidly (at least the .IMD files, DiskImage is all I tried). I did > have > > to change the IMD Settings to Sides Two, Double-step On, and the 250kps > to > > 300kps. I don't fully understand that last setting, but absolutely it > was > > necessary - the IMD image file wouldn't write to disk otherwise. > > That is because you are writing "320K" disk in a 1.2M drive. > double step is to get 40 tracks instead of 80 > a 160/180/320/360K drive spins at 300 RPM, and uses 250K data transfer > rate. > But, a 1.2M drive spins at 360 RPM, so you have to either change the drive > to 300 RPM at 250k, OR use the 360RPM at 300K > > (some drives are dual speed; the FDC has a 300bps rate to compensatefor > those that are not.) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============0807683556201555888==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Oct 28 17:41:33 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 10:41:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5535133901875979771==" --===============5535133901875979771== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 28 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis wrote: >> That is because you are writing "320K" disk in a 1.2M drive. >> double step is to get 40 tracks instead of 80 > > Makes sense, thanks. I wasn't 100% sure if this was a 1.2M drive or not. > How difficult is it to change a drive? And could it go the other way, > upping a 360K stock drive to support 1.2M? I imagine it's not as easy as > jumper settings- but a matter of voltage divider maybe? I don't want to > void my warranty (joking!! :) ) I think I've heard of people altering > their drives, I just hadn't seen it done. > > I guess another 5.25 related question comes to mind - when a new system was > delivered, they had (cardboard?) inserts into the drives. Was that more to > protect them during transport/delivery? Or a dust protection? or both? For > long term storage (maybe 6+ months?) should we put inserts back into our > 5.25 drives? I'll have to answer the other questions later, . . . I think that the cardboard is to protect the heads from banging into each other. With the door of the drive closed, the heads are close together, and can hit each other if the drive is jarred. They probably do help keep dust off of the working surfae of the head(s), but I don't think that tat is the reason for them. If you don't have one, and need to move the drive afound, or ship it, although it's not quite as good, the full thickness of the jacket of a disk will do. Just turn the disk 180 degrees, so that it's the full jacket, not just the cookie between the heads. (For a Twiggy disk turn it 90 degrees) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5535133901875979771==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Oct 28 18:02:15 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 11:02:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8315290190964225468==" --===============8315290190964225468== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'll have to answer some other questions later, . . . Diskettes: For writing 10K/180K/320K/360K disks, use THOSE, never 1.2M dikettes! "360K" diskettes are 300 Oersted; 1.2M are 600 Oersted. The 1.2M/600-Oersted dikettes use a reduced write current (pin6? of the interface) Twiggy disks, and Amlyn cartridge (5 disks in a jukebox holder) were 600 Oersted. If you try to use 1.2M diskettes for the lower density, it might seem to be working, but the recording doesn't last. Using Roytype (who the college purchasing agent was sleeping with) HD disks with TRS80 gave us disks that didn't keep their contents long enough to sneakernet to another machine! To tell them apart, there is usually a difference of color. and 1.2M diskettes generally do NOT have a hub reinforcing ring (unless somebody manually added one later) 360K diskettes generally come with a hub reinforcing ring. (except for EARLY ones, such as Verbatim before they came out with "Datalife") The reinforcing ring was because many early drives would occasionally misclamp and mangle the edges of the hole; later drives, including all 1.2M were probably an improved shape of clamping cone. In contrast, 720K/400K/800K 3.5 inch disks are 600 Oersted; 1.4M 3.5" disks are about 750 Oersted Which is close enough that a high quality 720K disk could be used as a low quality 1.4M, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8315290190964225468==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Oct 28 18:37:12 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 11:37:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6558866466643724873==" --===============6558866466643724873== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 28 Oct 2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Converting drive: (NOT PEACTICAL!) 1) Disk controllers intended for 360K generally run 250K bits per second (125K for single density), and do NOT support the 300K bps and 500K bps that are needed. Weltec sold some drives with a VERY bizarre work-around, by making the drive of a 1.2M drive spin at 180 RPM! 180 RPM with 250kbps being equivalent to 360RPM at 500K bps 2) motor speed is not as easy as increasing/decreasing voltage. On a belt driven drive, you might be able to change pulleys. Althoug, I think that a "50Hz" pulley on a "60Hz" drive might give you the change from 300 RPM to 360RPM?, . . . Some/many?/all? 8 inch drives use synchronous motors (8 inch drive power connections were NOT standardized!) with one of their voltages being a lowered voltage AC BTW, NEC APC? ran their 3.5" 1.4M drives at 360RPM, instead of 300RPM. That meant that all three of their sizes (8", 1.2M 5.25", 3.5") could have the same format! Some Japanese 3.5" drives (called "3 mode?") canswitch between 300 and 360RPM! 3) 360K and 1.2M require different current level for writing. 1.2M drives will generally have a signal (pin6?) for choosing current So, that will require a work-around. (also, READY/DISK CHANGED signal was not completely standardized.) AFTER coming out with the 1.2M drives, it bagan to be important to tell them apart. So, getting it backwards?, they started embossing an asterisk on 360K drives. So, any drive with an asterisk is 360K, a drive WITHOUT an asterisk might be a 1.2M, OR might be a 360K from before they added asterisks. If you convert any drives, be sure to add or remove asterisk :-) A label maker would help with that, and also lable which drive is "A" or "B" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6558866466643724873==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Mon Oct 28 19:17:37 2024 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 19:17:29 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6820389279575282975==" --===============6820389279575282975== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So it looks like I can=E2=80=99t upload to archive.org for a bit of time but = I=E2=80=99ll have a look and see if I can put it somewhere I can share.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On 27 Oct 2024, at 21:52, Holm Tiffe via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFPlease drop me a line if you do that.. >=20 > THX, > Holm >=20 > jake utley via cctalk wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ll make images of them if needed but I think I have already. If = I have then I=E2=80=99ll put the software up on archive.org >>>> On 27 Oct 2024, at 21:26, Jon Elson via cctalk = wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFOn 10/27/24 11:28, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: >>>> Hi guys, >>>>=20 >>>> I've got a bunch of TMS32020 and two TMS320C25 Chips and I want to play >>>> with them a little :-) >>>>=20 >>>> Is the old DOS (orf VMS?) Software still available from somewhere? >>>> (Yes, I have an VS4000-90 under the desk..long time ago since I've last >>>> booted it, but ...simh also exists). >>>>=20 >>> My 2000-vintage pick and place machine has a number of these 320XX series= DSPs in it to process camera images. I seem to recall they are a Harvard ar= chitecture. I never did any programming on them. >>>=20 >>> Jon >>>=20 >=20 > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 > info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >=20 --===============6820389279575282975==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Oct 28 19:22:08 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 12:22:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2323120070013317522==" --===============2323120070013317522== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Track width 360K drives (40 track) have tracks 48 tpi. (Early on, Shugart SA400, and Apple SA390, only used 35 of those tracks) That's about 1/2 mm from center of one track to center of the next. The track itself is about 1/3 mm wide, leaving a little blank space between tracks. 80 track (both 1.2M, and 5/25" 720K/800K) have tracks 96 tpi. that's about 1/4 mm from center of one track to center of the next. The track width is about 1/6 mm. (BTW, 8" disks are 48tpi) It is possible to use a 1.2M drive to make a usable 360K disk, Use the right ("360K"/300 Oersted) diskette. DO NOT USE A 1.2M DISKETTE! Start with a thoroughly bulk eraased or virgin disk that is NOT "preformatted" The 1.2M drive will have to "double step" to get 40 tracks at 48tpi The drive must not be using the HD write current (I've no idea of amperage) The drive must switch to 300 RPM at 250K bps, or switch to 300 bps at 360 RPM The resulting diskette will have narrower tracks than normal, which is usually not a problem, but the tracks will be at the right spacing. DO NOT "RE-WRITE", nor "RE-FORMAT" a 360K diskette in a 1.2M drive unless you throughly bulk erase it. When you RE-WRITE a 360K diskette in a 1.2M drive, it already has wide tracks, and the 1.2M drive will write a narrow track down the middle of each. It will still be quite readable with the 1.2M drive. BUT, a 360K drive, instead of finding a wide track, finds a wide track with a narrow track down the middle of it! (and tiny gaps alongside the narrow track) It can't read that. By analogy, a bike caan ride down the middle of a car tire track rut, and two bikes can go side by side in the two ruts. But, if you try to analyze the tread pattern, it's different in the middle than away from the middle, and won't match anything. On fresh mud, two bikes at the right distance apart can make a pair of rute that looks like a car with narrow wheels. (a 5.25" "720K/800K/"quad density" drive has the same problem) (BTW, "quad density" is a marketing obfuscation. It is still double density, but with more tracks, conflating disk total capacity with linear density. It is not a change in the linear density.) (BTW, Superbrain (intertec?) when the changed from SSDD to DSDD called the two sided same density, "QUAD DENSITY"! But, then later when they went to 80 track DSDD, which many companies called "Quad density", they couldn't call it that, because they had alread used that term. So, they called it "SUPER DENSTY"! and abbreviated that SD (which means FM/single-density to everybody else)) If you do tackle the Herculean task of converting a 1.2M drive into a 360K drive, be aware that that will have abnormally narrower heads! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2323120070013317522==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Oct 28 19:48:29 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 19:48:22 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLO2P123MB399862874257B414B2968E61A84A2=40LO2P123MB?= =?utf-8?q?3998=2EGBRP123=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5910894686097366832==" --===============5910894686097366832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dropbox works for this kinda stuff. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 28, 2024, at 12:17, jake utley via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFSo it looks like I can=E2=80=99t upload to archive.org for a bit o= f time but I=E2=80=99ll have a look and see if I can put it somewhere I can s= hare. > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >>> On 27 Oct 2024, at 21:52, Holm Tiffe via cctalk = wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFPlease drop me a line if you do that.. >>>=20 >>> THX, >>> Holm >>>=20 >>> jake utley via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99ll make images of them if needed but I think I have already. If= I have then I=E2=80=99ll put the software up on archive.org >>>>> On 27 Oct 2024, at 21:26, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 10/27/24 11:28, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Hi guys, >>>>>=20 >>>>> I've got a bunch of TMS32020 and two TMS320C25 Chips and I want to play >>>>> with them a little :-) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Is the old DOS (orf VMS?) Software still available from somewhere? >>>>> (Yes, I have an VS4000-90 under the desk..long time ago since I've last >>>>> booted it, but ...simh also exists). >>>>>=20 >>>> My 2000-vintage pick and place machine has a number of these 320XX serie= s DSPs in it to process camera images. I seem to recall they are a Harvard a= rchitecture. I never did any programming on them. >>>>=20 >>>> Jon >>>>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >> Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 >> info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >>=20 --===============5910894686097366832==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Oct 28 20:50:36 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 13:50:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2747799223352133283==" --===============2747799223352133283== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Converting drive: SOME 96tpi drives had a jumper to make them always double step SOME 2 speed drives had a jumper to force one speed. SO, it couldbe jumpered into a 360K, other than the heads being too narrow --===============2747799223352133283==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Tue Oct 29 00:18:55 2024 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 00:18:47 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0687602392623871681==" --===============0687602392623871681== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do note that Fred last line can be important. If you take a disk that is a 96 tpi and write something on a clean disk, you = should be able to take it to a 360k drive and read it. If the disk was use on= a 360k machine and you over write anything that was previously on it, it will= unlikely read on a 360K drive. This is because the 96 tpi drive does not era= se the wider track written by the earlier 360k drive =F0=9F=99=81 It is like a oneway ticket. It only gets you there but not back. Dwight ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Monday, October 28, 2024 1:50 PM To: Fred Cisin via cctalk Cc: Fred Cisin Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Loo= king for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) > Converting drive: SOME 96tpi drives had a jumper to make them always double step SOME 2 speed drives had a jumper to force one speed. SO, it couldbe jumpered into a 360K, other than the heads being too narrow --===============0687602392623871681==-- From evanlinwood@hotmail.com Tue Oct 29 06:52:19 2024 From: Evan Linwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 06:52:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <173013480861.2847341.12166107026617412343@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1570292133242487378==" --===============1570292133242487378== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul, Actually I've got a couple of these units, and as Bruce has indicated yes the= y're a Data General manufactured product. (Bruce is the one with vastly more = DG knowledge than myself). Mine is a '6098', which is really an integrated combination of fixed disk dri= ve, floppy disk drive and controller card. As Bruce has mentioned there will also be the internal DG product number, pre= fixed with 005, on it somewhere (it's possible yours isn't exactly the same m= odel as mine). This manual is up on Bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dg/disc/Disc_Subsystem/014-000638-00_6097_6098_6= 099_6100_6103_Disc_Subsystem.pdf DG manufactured drives up through 300MB removable pack type drives, and fixed= drives with capacities into the multi-GB area (used in MV series systems). --===============1570292133242487378==-- From evanlinwood@hotmail.com Tue Oct 29 06:59:22 2024 From: Evan Linwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify 14" HDD with two heads on single arm Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 06:59:14 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2419168113175205375==" --===============2419168113175205375== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry you'll notice also on the lower half of the front is an aluminium cover= that detaches with a couple of screws, revealing another card with additiona= l labelling on it. Also have a look around the inside of the case. Any of tho= se thin, printed strips are where you'll likely find one (or more) of these 0= 05- series numbers. On my unit, the '6098-4' label can be seen on the externa= l rear of the machine, adjacent to and below where the label describing the p= ower characteristics is located. --===============2419168113175205375==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Tue Oct 29 10:30:34 2024 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 10:28:32 +0000 Message-ID: <94f5b2b2-91f9-47e1-bd65-2be982bdf4be@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941249FACF3795F0AB6F8A8A34B2=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6179548147347608291==" --===============6179548147347608291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perfect timing!! In a few weeks, California will be flooded with 5.25-inch floppy drives,=20 which are still used today by the San Francisco Municipal Transportation=20 Agency. See article: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/storage/san-francisco-will-spend-u= sd212-million-to-bid-5-25-inch-floppy-disks-goodbye-muni-metro-light-rail-upg= rade-represents-a-usd700-million-investment Thomas On 29.10.2024 00:18, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Do note that Fred last line can be important. > If you take a disk that is a 96 tpi and write something on a clean disk, yo= u should be able to take it to a 360k drive and read it. If the disk was use = ona 360k machine and you over write anything that was previously on it, it wi= ll unlikely read on a 360K drive. This is because the 96 tpi drive does not e= rase the wider track written by the earlier 360k drive =F0=9F=99=81 > It is like a oneway ticket. It only gets you there but not back. > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2024 1:50 PM > To: Fred Cisin via cctalk > Cc: Fred Cisin > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: L= ooking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) > >> Converting drive: > SOME 96tpi drives had a jumper to make them always double step > SOME 2 speed drives had a jumper to force one speed. > > SO, it couldbe jumpered into a 360K, other than the heads being too narrow > > > --===============6179548147347608291==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Oct 29 12:16:51 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 12:16:34 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4764175926163236021==" --===============4764175926163236021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 6:45=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > 2) motor speed is not as easy as increasing/decreasing voltage. > On a belt driven drive, you might be able to change pulleys. Althoug, I > think that a "50Hz" pulley on a "60Hz" drive might give you the change > from 300 RPM to 360RPM?, . . . > Some/many?/all? 8 inch drives use synchronous motors (8 inch drive power > connections were NOT standardized!) with one of their voltages being a > lowered voltage AC I've never seen a 5.25" or smaller floppy drive with a mains sychronous motor. _Most_ 8" drives, including all the ones I've worked on, did use such motors but I've read an 8" drive service manual where the spindle motor was an electronically-controlled DC motor running off the 24V supply. As an aside, Tektronix used normal 8" drives in some of their machines, always fitted with 60Hz pulley sets. They produced a 115V 60Hz output in the power supply, frequency contolled by a crystal. As a result said machine would run off 50Hz mains, 60Hz and indeed 400Hz aircraft supplies without pulley changes > 3) 360K and 1.2M require different current level for writing. 1.2M drives > will generally have a signal (pin6?) for choosing current It was pin 2 on the original PC/AT 1.2M drive (I've just checked the TechRef) and I would guess most clones did the same thing. > So, that will require a work-around. > (also, READY/DISK CHANGED signal was not completely standardized.) > > > AFTER coming out with the 1.2M drives, it bagan to be important to tell > them apart. So, getting it backwards?, they started embossing an asterisk > on 360K drives. So, any drive with an asterisk is 360K, a drive WITHOUT > an asterisk might be a 1.2M, OR might be a 360K from before they added > asterisks. It's worse than that! IBM had 2 half-height 360K drives. One for the PC/AT with a light grey panel. It has the asterisk. Made by YE Data I think The other for the PortablePC and PCr. Black panel, no asterisk. A Qumetrak 14= 2. I've got a PortablePC (5155) in bits on the bench at the moment. I don't much like those Qumetrak drives to work on. I have the IBM TechRef and the Qume service manual. Both contain schematics. The schematics do not agree with each other, or with either of the drives in my machine (which are both IBM labelled Qumetraks and are slightly different....) Quite why IBM used 2 different drives from different manufacturers I don't kn= ow. -tony --===============4764175926163236021==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Oct 29 12:26:07 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 12:25:50 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2141609853421616464==" --===============2141609853421616464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 7:22=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Track width > 360K drives (40 track) have tracks 48 tpi. (Early on, Shugart SA400, and For the pedants, the IBM 360K format is 80 track. 40 cylinders, each of 2 tracks, one on each side of the disk. > Apple SA390, only used 35 of those tracks) That's about 1/2 mm from > center of one track to center of the next. The track itself is about > 1/3 mm wide, leaving a little blank space between tracks. > > 80 track (both 1.2M, and 5/25" 720K/800K) have tracks 96 tpi. that's about > 1/4 mm from center of one track to center of the next. The track width is > about 1/6 mm. There were a few 100tpi 5.25" drives. Annoying because they couldn't read 40 cylinder disks even if you double-stepped them. Didn't Commodore use them in the 8050? 3.5" drives tend to be 80 cylinder, 135 tpi. There were a few 40 cylinder 67.5 tpi drives with, I assume, a wider head. I've never seen one in a PC though. The spec I can find for the 40 cylinder 3" drive says it's 100tpi. So I assume the 80 cylinder one (often used as a second drive on Amstad PCW's) would be 200tpi. > > (BTW, 8" disks are 48tpi) > > > It is possible to use a 1.2M drive to make a usable 360K disk, > Use the right ("360K"/300 Oersted) diskette. DO NOT USE A 1.2M DISKETTE! > Start with a thoroughly bulk eraased or virgin disk that is NOT "preformatt= ed" > The 1.2M drive will have to "double step" to get 40 tracks at 48tpi > The drive must not be using the HD write current (I've no idea of amperage) > The drive must switch to 300 RPM at 250K bps, or switch to 300 bps at 360 R= PM > > The resulting diskette will have narrower tracks than normal, which is > usually not a problem, but the tracks will be at the right spacing. I've done this many times, mostly to write 40 cylinder CP/M disks on 80 cylinder drives. I use a bulk-erased disk, format and write on the 80 cylinder drive then copy it to a fresh 40 cylinder disk on the target machine. Never had any problems doing that. -tony --===============2141609853421616464==-- From legalize@xmission.com Tue Oct 29 16:38:06 2024 From: Richard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 09:40:25 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1539164778800279306==" --===============1539164778800279306== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article you write: >I'm looking for assembler, linker and the simulator that was abailable >when those chips came out (1986...) but I can't find any occurences >of that old stuff anymore. >Was a C compiler available for those old DSP's? Did you look here? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Terminals Wiki The Computer Graphics Museum Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --===============1539164778800279306==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 29 18:54:25 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 11:54:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7055368254855721165==" --===============7055368254855721165== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> 2) motor speed is not as easy as increasing/decreasing voltage. >> On a belt driven drive, you might be able to change pulleys. Althoug, I >> think that a "50Hz" pulley on a "60Hz" drive might give you the change >> from 300 RPM to 360RPM?, . . . >> Some/many?/all? 8 inch drives use synchronous motors (8 inch drive power >> connections were NOT standardized!) with one of their voltages being a >> lowered voltage AC > On Tue, 29 Oct 2024, Tony Duell wrote: > I've never seen a 5.25" or smaller floppy drive with a mains > sychronous motor. Nor I. I don't recall ever seeing a 5.25", 3", 3.25", nor 3.5" that used=20 anything other than 5VDC and/or 12VDC Almost all of the 5.25" (and, I think 3") used the same "molex" connector. I have a 3.25" drive that uses the same connector as 3.5", BUT different=20 postions for the voltages! > As an aside, Tektronix used normal 8" drives in some of their > machines, always fitted with 60Hz pulley sets. They produced a 115V > 60Hz output in the power supply, frequency contolled by a crystal. As > a result said machine would run off 50Hz mains, 60Hz and indeed 400Hz > aircraft supplies without pulley changes How much 115VAC power do they produce? >> 3) 360K and 1.2M require different current level for writing. 1.2M drives >> will generally have a signal (pin6?) for choosing current > It was pin 2 on the original PC/AT 1.2M drive (I've just checked the > TechRef) and I would guess most clones did the same thing. THANK YOU! I put the question mark because I wasn't sure, and 6 didn't seem right. > The other for the PortablePC and PCr. Black panel, no asterisk. A Qumetrak = 142. > > I've got a PortablePC (5155) in bits on the bench at the moment. I > don't much like those Qumetrak drives to work on. I have the IBM > TechRef and the Qume service manual. Both contain schematics. The > schematics do not agree with each other, or with either of the drives > in my machine (which are both IBM labelled Qumetraks and are slightly > different....) > Quite why IBM used 2 different drives from different manufacturers I don't = know. Because one couldn't supply drives with an asterisk? or because they didn't want to use the crappy Qume 142 drives on anything=20 else? The Qume 142 was so slow stepping, that that was one of the reasons for=20 introducing PC-DOS 2.10, to have a slower step time. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7055368254855721165==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 29 19:00:29 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 12:00:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5042492333977691675==" --===============5042492333977691675== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> 360K drives (40 track) have tracks 48 tpi. (Early on, Shugart SA400, and > On Tue, 29 Oct 2024, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > For the pedants, the IBM 360K format is 80 track. 40 cylinders, each > of 2 tracks, one on each side of the disk. point taken. I should have said "Tracks per side" > There were a few 100tpi 5.25" drives. Annoying because they couldn't > read 40 cylinder disks even if you double-stepped them. Didn't > Commodore use them in the 8050? Yes, but this was in response to 360K/1.2M issues. I have had some 100TPI, both Micropolis and Tandon TM100-4M One of the 100tpi Tandon drives is mislabeled as being TM100-4, without=20 the criticaally important 'M' > 3.5" drives tend to be 80 cylinder, 135 tpi. There were a few 40 > cylinder 67.5 tpi drives with, I assume, a wider head. I've never seen > one in a PC though. Not in s PC, but Epson Geneva PX-8 used one. > The spec I can find for the 40 cylinder 3" drive says it's 100tpi. So > I assume the 80 cylinder one (often used as a second drive on Amstad > PCW's) would be 200tpi. >> It is possible to use a 1.2M drive to make a usable 360K disk, >> Use the right ("360K"/300 Oersted) diskette. DO NOT USE A 1.2M DISKETTE! >> Start with a thoroughly bulk eraased or virgin disk that is NOT "preformat= ted" >> The 1.2M drive will have to "double step" to get 40 tracks at 48tpi >> The drive must not be using the HD write current (I've no idea of amperage) >> The drive must switch to 300 RPM at 250K bps, or switch to 300 bps at 360 = RPM >> The resulting diskette will have narrower tracks than normal, which is >> usually not a problem, but the tracks will be at the right spacing. > > I've done this many times, mostly to write 40 cylinder CP/M disks on > 80 cylinder drives. I use a bulk-erased disk, format and write on the > 80 cylinder drive then copy it to a fresh 40 cylinder disk on the > target machine. Never had any problems doing that. Shouldn't ever have problems with it. But, if the disk is damaged,=20 would the wider track be able to survive a little more damage? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5042492333977691675==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Oct 29 19:09:32 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 19:09:14 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7255766287815543486==" --===============7255766287815543486== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 7:00 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> 360K drives (40 track) have tracks 48 tpi. (Early on, Shugart SA400, and > > > On Tue, 29 Oct 2024, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > For the pedants, the IBM 360K format is 80 track. 40 cylinders, each > > of 2 tracks, one on each side of the disk. > > point taken. > I should have said "Tracks per side" True. I prefer to talk about 'cylinders' though. > > > There were a few 100tpi 5.25" drives. Annoying because they couldn't > > read 40 cylinder disks even if you double-stepped them. Didn't > > Commodore use them in the 8050? > > Yes, but this was in response to 360K/1.2M issues. Sure. I was just adding information for completeness. > I have had some 100TPI, both Micropolis and Tandon TM100-4M > One of the 100tpi Tandon drives is mislabeled as being TM100-4, without > the criticaally important 'M' ARGH! I wonder if the same heads (with different diameter pulleys on the stepper motor) were used both 96tpi and 100tpi drives in some cases. You'd get away with it if the head was made for 100tpi I think. > > > 3.5" drives tend to be 80 cylinder, 135 tpi. There were a few 40 > > cylinder 67.5 tpi drives with, I assume, a wider head. I've never seen > > one in a PC though. > Not in s PC, but Epson Geneva PX-8 used one. That little portable drive? I have one with a failed 6303 CU chip,alas. Wasn't one version of the portable drive for the TRS-80 model 100 also 40 cylinder? And they were certainly used in some music synthesisers, etc. > Shouldn't ever have problms with it. But, if the disk is damaged, > would the wider track be able to survive a little more damage? I've had floppy disks that will reliably format and work in 40 cylinder drives (data readable at least a year later) but which threw up errors if you tried to format them in (standard data rate) 80 cylinder drives. I never got to the bottom of that. -tony --===============7255766287815543486==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Oct 29 19:24:42 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 12:24:41 -0700 Message-ID: <00d101db2a38$34bae3c0$9e30ab40$@net> In-Reply-To: <94f5b2b2-91f9-47e1-bd65-2be982bdf4be@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4716018224855479124==" --===============4716018224855479124== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In a few weeks, California will be flooded with 5.25-inch floppy > drives, > which are still used today by the San Francisco Municipal > Transportation > Agency. I hope so. The price of Floppy drives has gotten ridunculous! -Ali --===============4716018224855479124==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Oct 29 19:26:36 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 19:26:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2478702177346274779==" --===============2478702177346274779== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 7:10 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I've never seen a 5.25" or smaller floppy drive with a mains > > sychronous motor. > Nor I. I don't recall ever seeing a 5.25", 3", 3.25", nor 3.5" that used > anything other than 5VDC and/or 12VDC Nor have I. On the other hand there are Archive tape drives that used +5 and +24V with the same power connector as a 5.25" floppy drive. Thankfully they kept the 5V and grounds in the same place. I am told some Sun machines had power cables for both disk drives and said tape drive, the only difference was the colour of the wire (yellow for 12V, orange for 24V) Sounds like a source of magic smoke emission. > > Almost all of the 5.25" (and, I think 3") used the same "molex" connector. Certainly the Panasonic (used by Amstrad, 26 pin header for the signals) and Hitachi (34 pin edge connector for the signals, same as a 5.25" drive) 3" drives used the same AMP power connector as the 5.25" drive, pins in the same order. I forget who made the drive in the Tatung Einstein but that was the same power connector too. > I have a 3.25" drive that uses the same connector as 3.5", BUT different > postions for the voltages! ARGH! > > > As an aside, Tektronix used normal 8" drives in some of their > > machines, always fitted with 60Hz pulley sets. They produced a 115V > > 60Hz output in the power supply, frequency contolled by a crystal. As > > a result said machine would run off 50Hz mains, 60Hz and indeed 400Hz > > aircraft supplies without pulley changes > > How much 115VAC power do they produce? Well enough to run a couple of normal 8" Drives. Nothing more, the rest of the electronics including the micropolis hard disk (which can replace one of the floppy disks), DEC 11/03 or 11/23 CPU board and all the Tektronix memory and I/O boards run off the DC outputs of the switch mode PSU > Because one couldn't supply drives with an asterisk? Well the Qumetrak 142 drives have 'IBM' moulded nto the panel so presumably the could have had the asterisk as well. > or because they didn't want to use the crappy Qume 142 drives on anything > else? > The Qume 142 was so slow stepping, that that was one of the reasons for > introducing PC-DOS 2.10, to have a slower step time. Hmm. It's strange, it looks like the thing double-steps. There are some monostables to generate a second step pulse a bit after the normal one. The Qume manual says they can be modified for 6ms step rate but doesn't say how, The IBM TechRef says their 'slimline' drive runs at a 6ms step rate. I've just stripped and cleaned a pair of the IBM-badged ones (ignore the Qume manual, there are better ways to do it!). I've had them on an exerciser and they work reliably at 6ms step rate. -tony --===============2478702177346274779==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Oct 29 19:55:37 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 19:55:27 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7445716444191160134==" --===============7445716444191160134== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/29/24 12:09, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if the same heads (with different diameter pulleys on the > stepper motor) were used both 96tpi and 100tpi drives in some cases. > You'd get away with it if the head was made for 100tpi I think. Somewhere in my pile, I have a TM-100-4M with a paper label under the door latch that says "96 tpi" (it's not). Micropolis, of course, used leadscrew positioning, rather than taut-band, (something that they were very proud of) so the difference there was substantial. I seem to recall that the Micropolis (the "M" in TM-100-4M) employed a slightly different pinout for DS3 and DS4 selects. MPI also made 100 tpi drive variants; I don't recall if Teac ever did. The location of track 0 is radically different in the 96 tpi and 100 tpi conventions--there's about a 6 track offset. 100 tpi drives were also spec-ed as being 77 track (like their 8" relatives). As regards reliability between the two conventions, that's pretty hard to nail down. Micropolis was an early adapter of GCR encoding in their own controllers, while the rest of the world, by and large, used FM or MFM encoding. So, for example, one could fit 12 sectors of 512 bytes on a track using the Micropolis technique, while the limit for MFM was 10. My feeling is that using the same encoding, the difference between the two, reliability-wise, was negligible. > I've had floppy disks that will reliably format and work in 40 > cylinder drives (data readable at least a year later) but which threw > up errors if you tried to format them in (standard data rate) 80 > cylinder drives. I never got to the bottom of that. There, the degausser (bulk eraser) is your friend. >>> 3.5" drives tend to be 80 cylinder, 135 tpi. A few Japanese-origin systems retained the 77 cylinder color of 8" drives. In addition, the rotation rate was 360 RPM, not 300 as most of the West uses. I suspect that it's the reason that the so-called "1.2M) 5.25" drives also spin (default) at 360 RPM. Indeed, there were Japanese-origin 5.25" drives that were not capable of supporting the lower data rates of "360K" drives. In retrospect, this was an eminently common-sense approach: no difference in disk format regardless of physical embodiment. For whatever it's worth, Chuck --===============7445716444191160134==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Oct 29 19:59:59 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 19:59:49 +0000 Message-ID: <0b980948-452c-4673-b81b-b57612151d86@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0174726056852532676==" --===============0174726056852532676== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/29/24 12:26, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > >> I have a 3.25" drive that uses the same connector as 3.5", BUT different >> postions for the voltages! > > ARGH! That certainly is true for the 3" CF2 drives, but my 3,25" drives use the conventional power connection of other mainstream drives. I found the difference out first-hand with the CF2 drives by letting the magic smoke out of a Teac FD235F 3.5" unit. --Chuck --===============0174726056852532676==-- From bear@typewritten.org Tue Oct 29 23:01:11 2024 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 15:31:22 -0700 Message-ID: <296489DA-1162-4BBF-8566-D56AA87EAB36@typewritten.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8466152522067468202==" --===============8466152522067468202== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 29, 2024, at 12:26 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On the other hand there are Archive tape drives that used +5 and +24V > with the same power connector as a 5.25" floppy drive. Thankfully they > kept the 5V and grounds in the same place. >=20 > I am told some Sun machines had power cables for both disk drives and > said tape drive, the only difference was the colour of the wire > (yellow for 12V, orange for 24V) Sounds like a source of magic smoke > emission. >=20 Correct. The 2/120 does, and the Sun-2 SCSI shoebox, both for use with the (8= =E2=80=9D) Archive Sidewinder QIC. The 5v/24v power lead has two connectors, = meant to power the Sidewinder and the Sysgen SC4000 QIC-02/SCSI bridge. The l= atter only requires 5v and has nothing connected to the 12v/24v pins. The 2/100U, 2/150U, and 2/170 have no internal storage devices, and the VME S= un-2 machines use 5.25=E2=80=9D QIC drive models with the 5v/12v molex everyo= ne expects. ok bear. --===============8466152522067468202==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 30 01:26:48 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 18:26:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3851341599086495576==" --===============3851341599086495576== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 29 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The location of track 0 is radically different in the 96 tpi and 100 tpi > conventions--there's about a 6 track offset. 100 tpi drives were also > spec-ed as being 77 track (like their 8" relatives). Are the tracks offset from one side of a disk to the other? --===============3851341599086495576==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Oct 30 05:03:59 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 00:03:42 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1516747000618948027==" --===============1516747000618948027== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fascinating notes! I did run into oddities when using a 360KB disks in between a 1.2M 5.25 drive on the '386 and the 5.25 drive on the Sharp PC-5000. I forget my exact sequence of events, but in short the MS-DOS 2.00 FORMAT.COM on the Sharp PC-5000 would start marking a few bad sectors (sometimes just a few KB, sometimes as much as 20KB of bad sectors). And yet those same disks were formatted as just fine and no bad sectors over the '386. Or, if I used IMD and wrote full MS-DOS 2.00 image to the disk, then the disk would work (and boot) fine in the Sharp PC-5000. Without nit-picking the specifics here (of whatever I did) - my lesson was there is definitely a difference between a completely uninitialized disks, versus something that has been previously formatted. Which, yeah, duh - but my real lesson was: you can't always FORMAT.COM your way back into a bootable disk. If something else has "touched" the boot sectors, then another system might start flagging those as bad sectors. I'm not sure if IMD (ImageDisk) trumps all that? Meaning, whatever crap is on the disk, does IMD not care? In otherwords, is using IMD kinda-sorta like degaussing (and then applying whatever the image is)? It just seemed to me that however I mangled the format on a disk, IMD was always able to get me back into a usable (and bootable) disk. I do remember (vaguely for me) in the 80s we'd get boxes of uninitialized disks, and there were generally warnings along the lines of once it was formatted to whatever system you intended to use the disk for, it was thereafter basically committed to being used for that system. (but it seems only because, back in those days we didn't typically have the benefit of something like IMD software or a Greazeweasal - and I imagine the documentation from disk vendors didn't want to get into the weeds of waving magnets around your disk, especially when they already had bold warnings of keeping your disk the heck away from any magnets :) ) Regarding the article on SF rail replacing disk drives, to avoid "catastrophic failure".... recall a while back, ActionRetro made a RAID out of floppy disk drives (3.5"'s). With all the firmware going into modern SSD's and M.2's, I ponder the irony of "old dumb mechanical drives" actually being (in a way) more secure. -Steve On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 29 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > The location of track 0 is radically different in the 96 tpi and 100 tpi > > conventions--there's about a 6 track offset. 100 tpi drives were also > > spec-ed as being 77 track (like their 8" relatives). > > Are the tracks offset from one side of a disk to the other? > > --===============1516747000618948027==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Oct 30 05:58:01 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 05:57:52 +0000 Message-ID: <5d6e3b91-ed10-41ba-86df-39751320ede3@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5931596658986566304==" --===============5931596658986566304== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/29/24 18:26, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 29 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> The location of track 0 is radically different in the 96 tpi and 100 tpi >> conventions--there's about a 6 track offset.  100 tpi drives were also >> spec-ed as being 77 track (like their 8" relatives). > > Are the tracks offset from one side of a disk to the other? I believe so. --===============5931596658986566304==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Wed Oct 30 17:31:19 2024 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 17:31:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8911179870286648103==" --===============8911179870286648103== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ve put it on my google drive. If you can=E2=80=99t access it I=E2= =80=99ll see if I have a setting wrong. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hjRq= dN0ss51BNetFZKR9OZls-6T3bmPI/view?usp=3Ddrivesdk On 29 Oct 2024, at 16:38, Richard via cctalk wrote: =EF=BB=BFIn article you write: I'm looking for assembler, linker and the simulator that was abailable when those chips came out (1986...) but I can't find any occurences of that old stuff anymore. Was a C compiler available for those old DSP's? Did you look here? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Terminals Wiki The Computer Graphics Museum Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --===============8911179870286648103==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Thu Oct 31 01:30:22 2024 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OS2 on a ThinkPad Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 21:30:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4942503234506318990==" --===============4942503234506318990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I tried to install Warp 4 on a T42 while back. I concur...it was a pain in the butt, and never worked well enough to stick with it. On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 2:25 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > You'd think an IBM operating system on an IBM ThinkPad would be easy-peasy > - but good grief, it's taken me over a year to finally get a magic formula > that works. Not too new, not too old.... (and yes, I have ArcaOS too, but > I wanted an OG 1994 install) > > One interesting thing I found is that OS/2 can actually run SecondReality > (in full screen, but it suspends it when I ALT-ESC to something else) -- > including with SBPro audio. I couldn't do that with WinXP yet (same > hardware), even though trying explicit DOS settings. I may tinker some > more on that, but rebooting to "MS-DOS Mode" in 95/98 can changing EMM386 > from NOEMS to RAM then SR works. > > I'll do a write up on the adventure soon-ish, I'm still trying to figure > out the TCP/IP settings stuff for OS/2. My first experience on the > Internet was "borrowing" my sister's credit card and racking up $100 for an > afternoon of web-surfing on dial up, with OS/2 Warp in 1994. A graphical > Traceroute was so neat to see, a graphical Gopher, and some early web > sites. Frankly, that day I fully realized that "BBS's are done for" (or > cute ANSI couldn't compete with HTML). > > I paid my sister back, eventually. At the time I thought it was just an > activation gate, didn't realize there was a per-minute charge. Sorry sis! > Don't leave your card out on the table :P > > -Steve > --===============4942503234506318990==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Oct 31 02:25:29 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OS2 on a ThinkPad Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 21:25:14 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <46ae0c82-41fc-48d5-aa8d-81a14ed0889f@shiresoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6534797218239495515==" --===============6534797218239495515== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I tried ArcaOS on some 2001-era Dell laptops, it works decent enough, but still didn't "feel" quite the same. Then there was a bit of drama of ArcaOS making complaints of people making videos about ArcaOS, claiming it violated their license (it wasn't quite that dramatic and likely blown out of proportion- but it was an uncomfortable circumstance; but to be fair, Arca is obligated to stay on the good side of IBM, as OS/2 is still sort of export controlled? Something like that- while I don't think the military makes too much use of OS/2, I do think some banks still do). I had trouble finding a 486 laptop in the 93/94 years that also had a built in CD-ROM. It seems in laptops, they skipped 486's and went straight to Pentiums (not saying they don't exist, just they don't seem to be plentiful such that those who have them price them accordingly-- I've wonder if the power/performance and battery ratio for a 486 laptop just wasn't favorable?) Installing at least from CD on the TP385CD has been far more bearable. -Steve On Sun, Oct 27, 2024 at 5:55 PM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > You could also look at ArcaOS from Arca Noae. Arca Noae took over OS/2 > from IBM when it was discontinued. They've been updating it and making > a number of releases with updated hardware support. For example, they > just released a version that has the ability to boot from UEFI- based > systems. > > TTFN - Guy > > On 10/26/24 13:13, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > That's true. Part of the trouble was just finding a ThinkPad still in > > decent enough shape. They're note equipment but not exactly ToughBook > > tanks. For many, the plastic case has just become brittle. And I'm not > > sure if the cooling was really adequate for the Pentium's (especially if > > the case gets compromised and has any sort of large crack). But I'd get > > one that ended up with a busted floppy, or a busted CD, or sour screen, > > etc. Installing from CD was really what I was going for (Warp 3 > Connect), > > and many of the CD equipped ThinkPad's are just too new. > > > > Then I saw inconsistencies across the same model line (for example some > > could boot to CD or PCMCIA, some couldn't). I thought perhaps they were > > just re-badged instances, but then realized: oh, it was due to firmware > > update differences over time. > > > > Anyhow, sorry to distract about 1990's stuff . Anyone got a working > > Univac-422? :) A modern-retro remake of one those would be neat, but > it > > seems it's always all about the PDP's instead :P > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 12:50 PM David Schmidt via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Steve Lewis wrote: > >>> I'll do a write up on the adventure soon-ish, I'm still trying to > figure > >>> out the TCP/IP settings stuff for OS/2. > >> You stand a much better chance of getting OS/2 drivers for IBM-produced > >> machines than just about anyone else's, but hat's off to you for > getting it > >> done. > >> > >> I (and I'm sure lots of others) can help if you need it navigating > >> LAPS/MPTS/TCP/IP settings. The stack is coming from a much more naive > era > >> with respect to security; you probably don't want to set up an FTP > server, > >> for example. ;-) > >> > >> - David > >> > -- > TTFN - Guy > > --===============6534797218239495515==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Thu Oct 31 08:50:33 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 09:50:27 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLO2P123MB399822D6DDBCBA1C35AACFAEA8542=40LO2P123MB?= =?utf-8?q?3998=2EGBRP123=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7914164192444813765==" --===============7914164192444813765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, I got the file..you made all right! Regards, Holm jake utley via cctalk wrote: > I=E2=80=99ve put it on my google drive. If you can=E2=80=99t access it I=E2= =80=99ll see if I have a setting wrong. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hjRq= dN0ss51BNetFZKR9OZls-6T3bmPI/view?usp=3Ddrivesdk >=20 >=20 > On 29 Oct 2024, at 16:38, Richard via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFIn article you write: > I'm looking for assembler, linker and the simulator that was abailable > when those chips came out (1986...) but I can't find any occurences > of that old stuff anymore. > Was a C compiler available for those old DSP's? >=20 > Did you look here? > >=20 > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Terminals Wiki > The Computer Graphics Museum > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --=20 Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,=20 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============7914164192444813765==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Thu Oct 31 08:52:06 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old TMS3202x Software? Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 09:51:54 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4620160785663606750==" --===============4620160785663606750== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard via cctalk wrote: > In article you write: > >I'm looking for assembler, linker and the simulator that was abailable > >when those chips came out (1986...) but I can't find any occurences > >of that old stuff anymore. > >Was a C compiler available for those old DSP's? > > Did you look here? > > I've looked at bitsavers but missed that one until your post. There are several imd files that look interesting, I'll take a closer look at them. Thank you! Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============4620160785663606750==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Oct 31 12:06:45 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 12:06:28 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21813DDA3E2762E27AED6E93E44E2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5329647832643833970==" --===============5329647832643833970== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 20:24, Wayne S via cctalk wr= ote: > They had a lot of local numbers so you didn=E2=80=99t have to pay Toll char= ges. Only in the USA, or maybe N America. Most of the world, AFAIK, we all paid for all calls, local and long-distance. Local was cheaper but it was by the minute which really killed off BBS type activity. I had to explain this to Netscape Inc on a transatlantic call in 1996. They had no idea. It persisted until the very late 1990s in the UK and Ireland. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5329647832643833970==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Thu Oct 31 12:17:01 2024 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 12:16:52 +0000 Message-ID: <0a24e5cc-20bb-4e17-b8a8-4250e75db272@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6119400483938339308==" --===============6119400483938339308== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, could you please explain, what exact disk media you are using. On 30.10.2024 05:03, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Fascinating notes! > > I did run into oddities when using a 360KB disks in between a 1.2M 5.25 > drive on the '386 and the 5.25 drive on the Sharp PC-5000. I forget my > exact sequence of events, but in short the MS-DOS 2.00 FORMAT.COM on the > Sharp PC-5000 would start marking a few bad sectors (sometimes just a few > KB, sometimes as much as 20KB of bad sectors). And yet those same disks > were formatted as just fine and no bad sectors over the '386. Or, if I > used IMD and wrote full MS-DOS 2.00 image to the disk, then the disk would > work (and boot) fine in the Sharp PC-5000. Without nit-picking the > specifics here (of whatever I did) - my lesson was there is definitely a > difference between a completely uninitialized disks, versus something that > has been previously formatted. Which, yeah, duh - but my real lesson was: > you can't always FORMAT.COM your way back into a bootable disk. If > something else has "touched" the boot sectors, then another system might > start flagging those as bad sectors. > > I'm not sure if IMD (ImageDisk) trumps all that? Meaning, whatever crap is > on the disk, does IMD not care? In otherwords, is using IMD kinda-sorta > like degaussing (and then applying whatever the image is)? It just seemed > to me that however I mangled the format on a disk, IMD was always able to > get me back into a usable (and bootable) disk. > > I do remember (vaguely for me) in the 80s we'd get boxes of uninitialized > disks, and there were generally warnings along the lines of once it was > formatted to whatever system you intended to use the disk for, it was > thereafter basically committed to being used for that system. (but it > seems only because, back in those days we didn't typically have the benefit > of something like IMD software or a Greazeweasal - and I imagine the > documentation from disk vendors didn't want to get into the weeds of waving > magnets around your disk, especially when they already had bold warnings of > keeping your disk the heck away from any magnets :) ) > > > > Regarding the article on SF rail replacing disk drives, to avoid > "catastrophic failure".... recall a while back, ActionRetro made a RAID > out of floppy disk drives (3.5"'s). With all the firmware going into modern > SSD's and M.2's, I ponder the irony of "old dumb mechanical drives" > actually being (in a way) more secure. > > > -Steve > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> The location of track 0 is radically different in the 96 tpi and 100 tpi >>> conventions--there's about a 6 track offset. 100 tpi drives were also >>> spec-ed as being 77 track (like their 8" relatives). >> Are the tracks offset from one side of a disk to the other? >> >> --===============6119400483938339308==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Oct 31 12:22:35 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OS2 on a ThinkPad Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 12:22:16 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5903823834530850014==" --===============5903823834530850014== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 31 Oct 2024 at 01:30, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > > I tried to install Warp 4 on a T42 while back. I concur...it was a pain in > the butt, and never worked well enough to stick with it. I can believe that. I have several legit copies of eComStation somewhere but I got the version of 2.1 from the Internet Archive working on an X61 tablet a couple of years ago. https://archive.org/details/ecomstation2.1 Easier than real Warp, with a ton of updates already integrated. I could only get an ancient version of Firefox working and that was a _lot_ of work -- days of it. I could not get Firefox 45 to install: I was defeated by too many dependencies, even with "yum" working. ArcaOS is better, much much better, but eCS does work and saves a lot of hass= le. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5903823834530850014==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Thu Oct 31 14:35:42 2024 From: Donald Whittemore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] System 360 question Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 14:35:38 +0000 Message-ID: <173038533815.4006402.1287859979364517989@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0522377608075145785==" --===============0522377608075145785== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If I remember right I was told back in the early 70s by our IBM CE that physi= cal damage could be done to our model 30 or 40 if we ran a program that did a= n Assembler instruction, B * For those non-Assembler people that is an ins= truction to branch to the location of the instruction. I think it might have= caused a heat problem in the core or CCROS or TROS. Possible? Or is my 76 year old brain hallucinating? --===============0522377608075145785==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Oct 31 15:49:39 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: System 360 question Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 15:41:59 +0000 Message-ID: <6a1fc10d-f127-41ce-98f8-893ea860d46d@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <173038533815.4006402.1287859979364517989@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0041228893074755164==" --===============0041228893074755164== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/31/24 07:35, Donald Whittemore via cctalk wrote: > If I remember right I was told back in the early 70s by our IBM CE that phy= sical damage could be done to our model 30 or 40 if we ran a program that did= an Assembler instruction, B * For those non-Assembler people that is an i= nstruction to branch to the location of the instruction. I think it might ha= ve caused a heat problem in the core or CCROS or TROS. >=20 > Possible? Or is my 76 year old brain hallucinating? I recall that sort of thing was an issue in the CDC 7600; it could throw parity errors because of core heating. I believe that the problem was in the PPUs, but it's been too many years to remember accurately. --Chuck --===============0041228893074755164==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Oct 31 17:39:14 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: System 360 question Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 13:39:06 -0400 Message-ID: <15C59399-CCA8-4D75-8DFA-209229490BC5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6a1fc10d-f127-41ce-98f8-893ea860d46d@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2685840689207813717==" --===============2685840689207813717== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 31, 2024, at 11:41 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 10/31/24 07:35, Donald Whittemore via cctalk wrote: >> If I remember right I was told back in the early 70s by our IBM CE that ph= ysical damage could be done to our model 30 or 40 if we ran a program that di= d an Assembler instruction, B * For those non-Assembler people that is an = instruction to branch to the location of the instruction. I think it might h= ave caused a heat problem in the core or CCROS or TROS. >>=20 >> Possible? Or is my 76 year old brain hallucinating? >=20 > I recall that sort of thing was an issue in the CDC 7600; it could throw > parity errors because of core heating. I believe that the problem was > in the PPUs, but it's been too many years to remember accurately. I could imagine it in PPs, also in 6400 machines since they don't have an "in= struction stack" so instruction fetches would go to memory. For all of those= you'd end up hammmering a single memory cell at high speed, and each time yo= u do that you get a read and a write cycle, both of which inject some energy = into the cores in question. In CDC's OS (NOS) the idle loop contains a couple of instructions which are f= airly slow, apparently with the specific intent to slow down memory reference= s. I remember a PDP-11 diagnostic called the "core heating test": it knows the g= eometry of the core modules it was written for, and uses that knowledge to do= lots of memory cycles in a small physical region of the core so that section= heats up. It them moves around the core planes, looking for regions that ar= e marginal and start misbehaving when heated. It's a very slow test. I actu= ally ran it once, mostly for grins; it didn't fail. paul --===============2685840689207813717==-- From jlw@jlw.com Thu Oct 31 19:01:15 2024 From: Jeff Woolsey To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: System 360 question Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 11:53:02 -0700 Message-ID: <27e8ea62-e226-4766-b6ea-1afe5bc7e384@jlw.com> In-Reply-To: <15C59399-CCA8-4D75-8DFA-209229490BC5@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8554100228782373425==" --===============8554100228782373425== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/31/24 10:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Oct 31, 2024, at 11:41 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 10/31/24 07:35, Donald Whittemore via cctalk wrote: >>> If I remember right I was told back in the early 70s by our IBM CE that p= hysical damage could be done to our model 30 or 40 if we ran a program that d= id an Assembler instruction, B * For those non-Assembler people that is an= instruction to branch to the location of the instruction. I think it might = have caused a heat problem in the core or CCROS or TROS. >>> >>> Possible? Or is my 76 year old brain hallucinating? >> I recall that sort of thing was an issue in the CDC 7600; it could throw >> parity errors because of core heating. I believe that the problem was >> in the PPUs, but it's been too many years to remember accurately. Ahh, yes, the Duty Cycle Integrator.=C2=A0 Slows things down when they heat=20 up.=C2=A0 The DECwriter III has a similar feature when you're printing long=20 lines of dense characters, such as '#'. > I could imagine it in PPs, also in 6400 machines since they don't have an "= instruction stack" so instruction fetches would go to memory. For all of tho= se you'd end up hammmering a single memory cell at high speed, and each time = you do that you get a read and a write cycle, both of which inject some energ= y into the cores in question. > > In CDC's OS (NOS) the idle loop contains a couple of instructions which are= fairly slow, apparently with the specific intent to slow down memory referen= ces. A couple divides, or count instructions, though bit counting might not=20 be as slow as divides on machines that have an instruction stack,=20 similar to the difference between iterative shifting and a barrel shifter. --=20 Jeff Woolsey {woolsey,jlw}@{jlw,jxh}.com first.last@{gmail,jlw}.com Spum bad keming. Nature abhors a straight antenna, a clean lens, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management "Card sorting, Joel." -me, re Solitaire --===============8554100228782373425==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Oct 31 19:25:42 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: System 360 question Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 19:25:34 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <15C59399-CCA8-4D75-8DFA-209229490BC5@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6175373639551342830==" --===============6175373639551342830== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/31/24 10:39, Paul Koning wrote: > I could imagine it in PPs, also in 6400 machines since they don't have an "= instruction stack" so instruction fetches would go to memory. For all of tho= se you'd end up hammmering a single memory cell at high speed, and each time = you do that you get a read and a write cycle, both of which inject some energ= y into the cores in question. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/60258200C_7600_RefMan_Feb71.p= df, PDF page 90 "Duty Cycle Integrator" for SCM in the CPU was the fix for the problem. You won't find it described in the very early 7600 hardware manuals. At first, I wondered if it might be a PPU thing, as the 7600 PPUs operate independently (no "barrel"), but the situation would be easy to avoid, since the casual user doesn't write PPU code. "Don't do that" would be sufficient. At any rate, the 7600 was a marvel of complexity when compared with its earlier 6000-series relatives. I remember marveling at the SCOPE 2 design documents and how very different they were from the 6000 operating system implementation. --Chuck --===============6175373639551342830==-- From gavin@learn.bio Thu Oct 31 22:12:51 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: System 360 question Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 17:12:33 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <173038533815.4006402.1287859979364517989@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6439972673770155810==" --===============6439972673770155810== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 9:35=E2=80=AFAM Donald Whittemore via cctalk wrote: > If I remember right I was told back in the early 70s by our IBM CE that phy= sical damage could be done to our model 30 or 40 if we ran a program that did= an Assembler instruction, B * For those non-Assembler people that is an i= nstruction to branch to the location of the instruction. Tangentially related: The classic stack-based HP 3000 has an XEQ instruction to treat a word on the stack as an instruction. It was commonly used to generate a customized EXIT instruction at the end of a function. Pretty much every use case was "XEQ 0" meaning take the word from the top of the stack and execute it, but you could also do XEQ 1-7 specifying how far down the stack from the top your instruction word was. On our Series 40 sometime in the 80s I discovered that if you put an "XEQ n" at n words down the stack, where n was 4-7, the microcode would go into a loop that not even the HALT button on the front panel could interrupt and you would have to power-cycle the CPU to recover (this was an unprivileged operation too). The CPU kept the top four words of the stack in registers, so I guess when the target instruction was outside that range it took a different path through the microcode having to fetch it over and over from memory. Fortunately nobody ever used this for evil purposes because it would have been very hard to identify what was going on since you could not get a memory dump. --===============6439972673770155810==-- From donald@donaldwhittemore.com Fri Nov 1 07:11:57 2024 From: "donald donaldwhittemore.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: System 360 question Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 22:17:10 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7168548774159028325==" --===============7168548774159028325== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Glad I never tried it. 😊 --===============7168548774159028325==--