From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Sep 1 12:13:22 2024 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:13:12 +0100 Message-ID: <029501dafc68$515f4f50$f41dedf0$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0488679873311489569==" --===============0488679873311489569== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have to say I would like a 510 for completeness but can=E2=80=99t really hous= e all of these, so I can=E2=80=99t make an offer if they have to go as a sing= le lot. =20 From: Liam Proven =20 Sent: 31 August 2024 20:47 To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook =20 On phone, so please excuse the mangled posting. =20 <<=20 Thanks to the various people who have messaged me with various help which has= enabled me to be a bit more specific on some of the details.=20 Looks like I have... Vt420 Vt510=20 Data general 6501=20 Rack mount screen x2 Various keyboards that you can see on the pics inc, I think 1xLK201.=20 Didn't realise there were enthusiasts for this sort of thing so I WONT be tak= ing to tip. Wouldn't want to see something that people like go to waste.=20 Not tested and unsure of whether these work. Not sure of the plugs either but= won't attempt turning on as I don't want to damage the old equipment.=20 If people are interested in taking it the please make a decent offer. Not rea= lly looking to split it up as I just want it gone.=20 Based on solihull.=20 >>=20 =20 On Fri, 30 Aug 2024, 11:04=E2=80=AFam Rob Jarratt via cctalk, > wrote: Hello Dave, I am not on FB, any chance you could tell me what terminals they are and what they are asking for them? Maybe a screenshot if you can fit it on one page. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk > > Sent: 30 August 2024 09:52 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com > Subject: [cctalk] VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook >=20 > Folks, >=20 > Some one in Solihull in the UK has a few terminals, including a VT420, for sale > on Facebook UK. >=20 > They appear to be complete with keyboards but otherwise as-seen. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Sadly they are in a private group so you will need to join Facebook and the > group to see them. >=20 >=20 >=20 > https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerswapmeet/posts/815917 > 25341583 > 87/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > but if you don't want to do this and are interested contact me off list.. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dave >=20 > G4UGM --===============0488679873311489569==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sun Sep 1 21:15:09 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2024 22:14:52 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <029501dafc68$515f4f50$f41dedf0$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6841038813616493034==" --===============6841038813616493034== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 1 Sept 2024 at 13:13, Rob Jarratt wro= te: > > Have to say I would like a 510 for completeness but can=E2=80=99t really ho= use all of these, so I can=E2=80=99t make an offer if they have to go as a si= ngle lot. Get them all, keep the 510, sell the others for a starting bid of =C2=A30.01 on eBay UK? That's what I normally did when I was in the UK. No reserve, and *say* there's no reserve. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6841038813616493034==-- From chd@chdickman.com Sun Sep 1 21:30:52 2024 From: Charles Dickman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NSA releases copy of internal lecture delivered by computing giant Rear Adm. Grace Hopper Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:30:33 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0a638927-858a-44cd-84c1-e6e4da1ef01e@shiresoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7726059610992085174==" --===============7726059610992085174== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The first time I heard of her was on 60 Minutes in March of '83. (I researched when it was.) I was in high school. It is always interesting that some things are timeless: do and ask permission later, the young are smarter than you think, leadership is both ways, management is not leadership, McNamara was evil, etc. The lecture is prescient about parallel processing and distributed computing. Networking is implied, but not described explicitly. -chuck On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 12:46=E2=80=AFAM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I watched the first part and have started the 2nd. She's a great > lecturer with lots of insight. > > I met her in 1974 and was able to have a short (10-15 minute) discussion > with her after her talk. Great lady. > > TTFN - Guy > > On 8/26/24 08:12, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote: > > > https://www.nsa.gov/Press-Room/Press-Releases-Statements/Press-Release-View= /Article/3884041/nsa-releases-copy-of-internal-lecture-delivered-by-computing= -giant-rear-adm-gra/ > > > > FORT MEADE, Md. =E2=80=94 In one of the more unique public proactive > > transparency record releases for the National Security Agency (NSA) to > > date, NSA has released a digital copy of a lecture that then-Capt. > > Grace Hopper gave agency employees on August 19, 1982. > > > > The lecture, =E2=80=9CFuture Possibilities: Data, Hardware, Software, and > > People,=E2=80=9D features Capt. Hopper discussing some of the potential f= uture > > challenges of protecting information. She also provided valuable > > insight on leadership and her experiences breaking barriers in the > > fields of computer science and mathematics. > > > > Rear Adm. Hopper was an American computer scientist, mathematician, > > and United States Navy rear admiral. One of the first programmers of > > the Harvard Mark I computer, she was a pioneer of computer > > programming. Hopper was the first to devise the theory of > > machine-independent programming languages, and the FLOW-MATIC > > programming language she created using this theory was later extended > > to create COBOL, an early high-level programming language still in use > > today. In 2016, President Obama posthumously awarded Rear Adm. Hopper > > the Presidential Medal of Freedom =E2=80=94 the Nation=E2=80=99s highest = civilian > > honor, awarded to individuals who have made especially meritorious > > contributions to the security or national interest of the U.S. =E2=80=94 = for > > her remarkable influence on the field of computer science. > > > > While NSA did not possess the equipment required to access the footage > > from the media format in which it was preserved, NSA deemed the > > footage to be of significant public interest and requested assistance > > from the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) to > > retrieve the footage. NARA=E2=80=99s Special Media Department was able to > > retrieve the footage contained on two 1=E2=80=99 APEX tapes and transferr= ed > > the footage to NSA to be reviewed for public release. > > > > NSA recognizes Rear Adm. Hopper=E2=80=99s significant contributions as a > > trailblazing computer scientist and mathematician, but also as a > > leader. > > > > "The most important thing I've accomplished, other than building the > > compiler, is training young people," Rear Adm. Hopper once said. =E2=80= =9CThey > > come to me, you know, and say, 'Do you think we can do this?' I say, > > 'Try it.' And I back 'em up. They need that. I keep track of them as > > they get older and I stir 'em up at intervals so they don't forget to > > take chances." > > -- > TTFN - Guy > > --===============7726059610992085174==-- From legalize@xmission.com Tue Sep 3 02:27:51 2024 From: Richard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW items available upon request Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2024 20:27:40 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0035032201340003578==" --===============0035032201340003578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In article you write: >I think most people here would disagree with you. How many people would >scrap a KI10, 11/20, PDP8 or any piece of classic computer equipment if it >was not "working in proper order"? > >I usually discuss this with the potential buyer. > >I have never heard a technically skilled person say that. In other words, all your inventory was pulled decades ago and has been rotting away in some warehouse on a shelf and is a restoration project. Got it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Terminals Wiki The Computer Graphics Museum Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --===============0035032201340003578==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Tue Sep 3 04:34:04 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW items available upon request Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2024 23:26:07 -0500 Message-ID: <9d5897c4-0eb7-4471-b918-8146bd0f2a3c@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6496069514356999757==" --===============6496069514356999757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/2/24 21:27, Richard via cctalk wrote: > In article you write: >> I think most people here would disagree with you. How many people would >> scrap a KI10, 11/20, PDP8 or any piece of classic computer equipment if it >> was not "working in proper order"? >> >> I usually discuss this with the potential buyer. >> >> I have never heard a technically skilled person say that. > In other words, all your inventory was pulled decades ago and has been > rotting away in some warehouse on a shelf and is a restoration project. > > Got it. Not sure what this attack on Paul is about, but his collection is from=20 one of the largest DEC resale operations on the map.=C2=A0 It is in great=20 shape from everything I've gotten from him as can be expected for=20 decades old hardware. I'm not stooping to insulting whatever else anyone might have in=20 whatever shape it is in, as mine is in as good as most any of us who=20 aren't Paul Allen can keep it.=C2=A0 And look how well that played out. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Terminals Wiki > The Computer Graphics Museum > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --===============6496069514356999757==-- From useddec@gmail.com Tue Sep 3 06:10:06 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW items available upon request Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 01:09:47 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1039522600339403745==" --===============1039522600339403745== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Since DEC hasn't made anything in decades, all DEC items are decades old. So what's the problem? Do you hate just DEC items, or everything that old? On Mon, Sep 2, 2024 at 9:27 PM Richard via cctalk wrote: > In article < > CACwhfuPN4mxjfHtkzAMGnbwrupPs_fPQaot9mJTD1gci-AKH7w(a)mail.gmail.com> you > write: > >I think most people here would disagree with you. How many people would > >scrap a KI10, 11/20, PDP8 or any piece of classic computer equipment if it > >was not "working in proper order"? > > > >I usually discuss this with the potential buyer. > > > >I have never heard a technically skilled person say that. > > In other words, all your inventory was pulled decades ago and has been > rotting away in some warehouse on a shelf and is a restoration project. > > Got it. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > The Terminals Wiki > The Computer Graphics Museum > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > --===============1039522600339403745==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Tue Sep 3 09:10:33 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW items available upon request Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 04:10:24 -0500 Message-ID: <1760896888.1775626.1725354624248@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5681408852380804458==" --===============5681408852380804458== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Feel free not to buy anything from him, then, but please leave the list out of it. mcl --===============5681408852380804458==-- From classiccmp@crash.com Tue Sep 3 10:29:47 2024 From: Steven M Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Tektronix XP214M X Terminal (1994) is supported by XpressWare 6.3 (1993) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 03:10:00 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8565411874247806133==" --===============8565411874247806133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently picked up a Tektronix XP214M - a MIPS-based, monochrome X terminal from late 1994. I thought I was going to need XPressWare 7 or later, but I haven't been able to turn up anything like that except the 8.1 patches shared on this list a couple years ago (thanks Doc!). And something about the fragments I pulled out of that wasn't working... XpressWare 6.3 is available on Bitsavers (thanks Al!), but appears to date from October 1993. I thought that would be a non-starter, since it predated the announcement of the XP214 by a year. But the v8 docs, and NC Bridge docs from after NCD bought the Tek X terminal line, indicated the binaries for the XP350 were used for the XP200 models, and the terminal was loading the v8.1 "os.350" successfully, it just died later in the boot process... So I tried booting the terminal from the 6.3 tree, and it worked the first time. It may be possible to tease out what's missing or incorrectly placed from the v8.1 patch files, but I'm more concerned with getting something running where the X networking hasn't been neutered... FYI, --Steve. --===============8565411874247806133==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue Sep 3 10:49:09 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW items available upon request Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 10:48:58 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9d5897c4-0eb7-4471-b918-8146bd0f2a3c@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4754791985246936883==" --===============4754791985246936883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > It is in great shape from everything I've gotten from him as can be expect= ed for > decades old hardware. Same, I haven't bought a ton off Paul, just some QBus stuff a few years ago w= hen I was getting my PDP-11/73 squared away, but everything was as advertised. Thanks, Jonathan --===============4754791985246936883==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue Sep 3 11:03:26 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB/Borrow: RK05 Alignment Pack Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 10:55:09 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9033275646340976847==" --===============9033275646340976847== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I'm getting ready to dig into my RK05s, two of which are parts units, of whic= h I hope to make a functional unit. I will definitely need to align it as hea= ds from one will have to go into the other. Does anyone have an alignment/CE = pack I can buy or borrow? Obviously prefer pick-up at VCF MW to avoid the pos= sibility of shipping loss or damage. Thanks, Jonathan --===============9033275646340976847==-- From korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Sep 3 21:17:44 2024 From: Eric Korpela To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 14:17:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <439d01dafa67$4958e8f0$dc0abad0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6133752301327120366==" --===============6133752301327120366== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 4:01 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hasn't he promised to give his money away... Everyone gives away their money when they die. That's pretty much all he has promised to do. He already gave a large amount of money to himself (i.e. his foundation). --===============6133752301327120366==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Sep 3 21:40:19 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 14:40:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2908791276668611434==" --===============2908791276668611434== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Furthermore, he gave his money to himself (via his foundation) and then used it to make gobs more money by forcing his shitty products onto the world via government mandate, just like he did at Microsoft. Sellam On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 2:24 PM Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 4:01 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hasn't he promised to give his money away... > > > Everyone gives away their money when they die. That's pretty much all he > has promised to do. He already gave a large amount of money to himself > (i.e. his foundation). > --===============2908791276668611434==-- From kirkbdavis@me.com Tue Sep 3 23:50:26 2024 From: Kirk Davis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 16:41:39 -0700 Message-ID: <61E3A80F-492D-454A-A033-6EC86FBCF326@me.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5849808208440443884==" --===============5849808208440443884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At least he never started on his evil lair. Sent from my iPad > On Sep 3, 2024, at 2:40=E2=80=AFPM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFFurthermore, he gave his money to himself (via his foundation) and= then > used it to make gobs more money by forcing his shitty products onto the > world via government mandate, just like he did at Microsoft. >=20 > Sellam >=20 >> On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 2:24 PM Eric Korpela via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >> On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >>> Hasn't he promised to give his money away... >>=20 >>=20 >> Everyone gives away their money when they die. That's pretty much all he >> has promised to do. He already gave a large amount of money to himself >> (i.e. his foundation). >>=20 --===============5849808208440443884==-- From barto@kdbarto.org Wed Sep 4 05:14:41 2024 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 15:28:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1474616858580276651==" --===============1474616858580276651== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99d love to see that program. As a UCSD Pascal developer (at UCSD bac= k in the day) interesting Pascal programs are always something that I=E2=80= =99m interested in seeing/reading. David > On Aug 31, 2024, at 7:48=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 8/30/24 21:25, cz via cctalk wrote: >>> By the way, the earth is round... >>=20 >> I'm glad we can agree on this. Of course the Earth is round. >>=20 >> It's also hollow. >>=20 >> To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an extended memory= controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap backplane and enough cards to= make it work but I've never done wire-wrap on this sort of scale. >>=20 >> I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of wire. Is there any= sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping? >=20 > I have a program that takes coordinates of ICs and/or connectors and a net = list and creates a wiring list for first-level and 2nd level wires with short= est length. >=20 > It tells what length wire to use. >=20 > It is written in Pascal, and uses a genetic algorithm to find the shortest = path. Sometimes that doesn't give the best wire routing, but it tries. I ha= ve not used this program in several decades, but I'd be glad to give it to yo= u. >=20 > Jon >=20 A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? David Barto barto(a)kdbarto.org --===============1474616858580276651==-- From useddec@gmail.com Wed Sep 4 06:38:20 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB/Borrow: RK05 Alignment Pack Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2024 01:38:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CIYnrIJsuXUKCcG2t7fOEzOG-xxS=5F4ELfpO4PALPbMG4CjX0E?= =?utf-8?q?eEmYTkmYNZ5xdaGaOnWOwyQTWZn11f7OlbBzVhQz8TmAibrdTC1GmL993kg=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7613273332139301605==" --===============7613273332139301605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 6:03 AM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > All, > > I'm getting ready to dig into my RK05s, two of which are parts units, of > which I hope to make a functional unit. I will definitely need to align it > as heads from one will have to go into the other. Does anyone have an > alignment/CE pack I can buy or borrow? Obviously prefer pick-up at VCF MW > to avoid the possibility of shipping loss or damage. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > > --===============7613273332139301605==-- From useddec@gmail.com Wed Sep 4 06:42:01 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB/Borrow: RK05 Alignment Pack Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2024 01:41:44 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CIYnrIJsuXUKCcG2t7fOEzOG-xxS=5F4ELfpO4PALPbMG4CjX0E?= =?utf-8?q?eEmYTkmYNZ5xdaGaOnWOwyQTWZn11f7OlbBzVhQz8TmAibrdTC1GmL993kg=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1038946287131415373==" --===============1038946287131415373== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jonathan, I'll look for one of mine tomorrow. Call me tonight if you can about the RK05s. Where are you located? Thanks, Paul 217 766 7690 On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 6:03 AM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > All, > > I'm getting ready to dig into my RK05s, two of which are parts units, of > which I hope to make a functional unit. I will definitely need to align it > as heads from one will have to go into the other. Does anyone have an > alignment/CE pack I can buy or borrow? Obviously prefer pick-up at VCF MW > to avoid the possibility of shipping loss or damage. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > > --===============1038946287131415373==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Wed Sep 4 13:28:22 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Microsoft & Apple Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2024 09:28:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1284998253378053482==" --===============1284998253378053482== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had not realized it was 27 yrs. ago that Microsoft =E2=80=98gave=E2=80=99 A= pple $150-$200 million. It was done to keep Microsoft safe from regulators - for its monopoly practices. Later did the lawsuits end between Apple and Microsoft. Did this save Apple? Haven=E2=80=99t researched this enough to deduce a learn= ed response! Happy computing, Murray =F0=9F=99=82 --===============1284998253378053482==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Sep 4 19:25:37 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2024 10:11:33 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2169556888805428687==" --===============2169556888805428687== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/3/24 17:28, David Barto via cctalk wrote: > I=E2=80=99d love to see that program. As a UCSD Pascal developer (at UCSD b= ack in the day) interesting Pascal programs are always something that I=E2=80= =99m interested in seeing/reading. > I have attached the .pas source file, as well as a .net file=20 that defines the wirelist, and a sample .wir output file.=C2=A0 I also attached a .hed file=20 that seems to define the ICs and their positions, but the=20 pascal file wants the IC definition at the top of the .net=20 file, and then a 9999 ends that definition part and the=20 netlist follows. Ahh, it has been so long since I used this I forgot a LOT=20 about how it works. 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ICAgICAgMUgtMTQsNEctMgpORVRfMzU4ICAgICAgICAgICAgNUgtMTUsNkgtMTAKTkVUXzM2MCAg ICAgICAgICAgIDRILTE1LDVILTEwCk5FVF8zNjEgICAgICAgICAgICAzSC0xNSw0SC0xMApORVRf MzYyICAgICAgICAgICAgMkgtMTUsM0gtMTAKTkVUXzM2MyAgICAgICAgICAgIDFILTE1LDJILTEw ClZDQyAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAxRS0xNCwxRi0xNiwxRy0yMCwxSC0xNiwxSS0xNCwyRC0yMCwy RS0xNCwyRi0xNiwyRy0yMCwySC0xNiwySS0xNCwySi0xNCwKICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDNE LTIwLDNFLTE0LDNGLTE2LDNHLTIwLDNILTE2LDNJLTE2LDNKLTE0LDRBLTE0LDRELTIwLDRGLTE2 LDRHLTIwLDRILTE2LAogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgNEktMTQsNUYtMTYsNUctMjAsNUgtMTYs NkEtMjAsNkItMTQsNkMtMjAsNkQtMTYsNkUtMTYsNkYtMTYsNkctMjAsNkgtMTYK --===============2169556888805428687==-- From steven@malikoff.com Thu Sep 5 00:44:38 2024 From: "steven@malikoff.com steven@malikoff.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2024 10:39:25 +1000 Message-ID: <792044142.37981.1725496765810@webmail-oxcs.register.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2748257223602930696==" --===============2748257223602930696== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cctalk is allowing attachments now? I was under the impression that these we= re deliberately disallowed and filtered for bloat reduction or safeguard agai= nst possible malware distribution? I'd personally prefer no attachments on cctalk rather just post a link to som= ewhere they can be retrieved from if desired. Steve > On 09/05/2024 1:11 AM AEST Jon Elson via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =20 > On 9/3/24 17:28, David Barto via cctalk wrote: > > I=E2=80=99d love to see that program. As a UCSD Pascal developer (at UCSD= back in the day) interesting Pascal programs are always something that I=E2= =80=99m interested in seeing/reading. > > > I have attached the .pas source file, as well as a .net file=20 > that defines the wirelist, >=20 > and a sample .wir output file.=C2=A0 I also attached a .hed file=20 > that seems to define the ICs and their positions, but the=20 > pascal file wants the IC definition at the top of the .net=20 > file, and then a 9999 ends that definition part and the=20 > netlist follows. >=20 > Ahh, it has been so long since I used this I forgot a LOT=20 > about how it works. >=20 > Jon --===============2748257223602930696==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Sep 5 23:53:10 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2024 17:52:53 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <792044142.37981.1725496765810@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6160465258191600687==" --===============6160465258191600687== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Sep 4, 2024, 8:04 PM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > cctalk is allowing attachments now? I was under the impression that these > were deliberately disallowed and filtered for bloat reduction or safeguard > against possible malware distribution? > I'd personally prefer no attachments on cctalk rather just post a link to > somewhere they can be retrieved from if desired. > > Steve > I noticed that as well, and was wondering the same. Sellam > --===============6160465258191600687==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 6 00:29:37 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2024 17:29:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0917443152001850877==" --===============0917443152001850877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> cctalk is allowing attachments now? I was under the impression that these >> were deliberately disallowed and filtered for bloat reduction or safeguard >> against possible malware distribution? >> I'd personally prefer no attachments on cctalk rather just post a link to >> somewhere they can be retrieved from if desired. On Thu, 5 Sep 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I noticed that as well, and was wondering the same. You are going to think that I am making this up. (I am not that=20 imaginative): The VP of the college used Wordperfect to create a document that consisted of: "The curriculum committee will meet Tuesday at 2:00 in room D252, instead of = D233." He put a blue horizontal rule (line) across the page below the message. He printed it out on a color printer. He signed it. He scanned the paper. He put that as an attachment to an email. He used a Subject: line of "FYI" The body of the text of the email with the attachment was: "See the attachment" He sent the email to the faculty (The paper was not quite aligned in the scanner, so the horizontal rule=20 had a slight "stair-step") The first item on the agenda was a state mandate that we should teach=20 "Information Competency", in addition to a previous mandate of teaching=20 "Computer Literacy". He opposed it, saying that "ALL of our students and faculty are=20 Information Competent and computer Literate" He is not on this list. In May 2013, I said, "Take this job and shovel it." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0917443152001850877==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 6 01:40:52 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2024 18:40:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1934488312398665456==" --===============1934488312398665456== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forgot to mention that as soon as it had been scsnned, the document was shredded. Occasionally they screwed up and shredded documents before scanning. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1934488312398665456==-- From lawrence@ljw.me.uk Fri Sep 6 06:04:34 2024 From: Lawrence Wilkinson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:41:34 +0200 Message-ID: <4430257f-2c75-4d01-a94f-1c5849428dc8@ljw.me.uk> In-Reply-To: <792044142.37981.1725496765810@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0218192205796321344==" --===============0218192205796321344== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/09/24 02:39, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: > cctalk is allowing attachments now? I was under the impression that these = were deliberately disallowed and filtered for bloat reduction or safeguard ag= ainst possible malware distribution? > I'd personally prefer no attachments on cctalk rather just post a link to s= omewhere they can be retrieved from if desired. > > Steve Posts with attachments get held for moderation. Attachments usually get=20 stripped, but I am not quite sure what the criteria are for that. I allowed that one but didn't expect the attachments to appear, just for=20 the poster to work out what to do next. This is probably the first time=20 someone has posted attachments smaller than 100k. So don't expect general attachments, especially images etc. --=20 Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence(a)ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk --===============0218192205796321344==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Fri Sep 6 08:19:40 2024 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2024 09:19:32 +0100 Message-ID: <8655f669-c7c1-4185-8bbf-d72498cf1aab@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3432482350106852499==" --===============3432482350106852499== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 06/09/2024 02:40, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I forgot to mention that as soon as it had been scsnned, the document > was shredded. > > Occasionally they screwed up and shredded documents before scanning. Surely they would then scan the shreds, just to prove they were following procedure :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============3432482350106852499==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Fri Sep 6 15:39:26 2024 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Microsoft & Apple Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2024 11:39:09 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0099910337370934472==" --===============0099910337370934472== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure seems like Apple recovered, as I type on my Macbook M3 Max! Investing in developing their Unix-like OS and buying that silicon company were some of the greatest business decisions I've witnessed. -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Thu, Sep 5, 2024 at 12:44=E2=80=AFAM Murray McCullough via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I had not realized it was 27 yrs. ago that Microsoft =E2=80=98gave=E2=80=99= Apple $150-$200 > million. It was done to keep Microsoft safe from regulators - for its > monopoly practices. Later did the lawsuits end between Apple and Microsoft. > Did this save Apple? Haven=E2=80=99t researched this enough to deduce a lea= rned > response! > > Happy computing, > > Murray =F0=9F=99=82 > --===============0099910337370934472==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Sep 7 08:18:10 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2024 03:17:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7631874710907225568==" --===============7631874710907225568== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A while back I started studying more about the Sharp PC-5000 (and had it up and running at VCFSW in 2023). I'm now coming back to that project, and one thing I was never able to find was a compatible 5.25 disk drive. I've collected some information about this system at here: https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000/ And I am hoping to put together a video about out. But one challenging aspect is that its LCD screen is difficult to record (lots of reflections). And despite having lots of schematic documentation now, I'm still not savvy enough to try to export its screen content to an external device that might have a backlight. From my notes, as I recall.... The 37-pin connector at the back of the PC-5000 is not the same as the 37-pin connector at the back of the IO card with the original IBM PC 5150. I believe the Sharp product model number I am looking for CE-510F (which might be the same as MZ-80B in certain markets). This isn't an urgent thing - the Bubble Memory modules of this PC-5000 are still all working fine and make the system functional. But I do have a set of disk with the system that might be interesting to try out. So just broadcasting here, on the off-chance someone might be familiar with these and know of a stash of accessories (most likely within a Japanese-speaking community, where I think Sharp products were generally more popular). Thanks! Steve v* --===============7631874710907225568==-- From als@thangorodrim.de Sat Sep 7 15:50:53 2024 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2024 17:43:28 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2177265891449762516==" --===============2177265891449762516== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Sep 05, 2024 at 06:40:42PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I forgot to mention that as soon as it had been scsnned, the document was > shredded. > > Occasionally they screwed up and shredded documents before scanning. Maybe you could have interested them in acquiring a shrinter, for a smooth print-to-shred experience: https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/cool-gadgets-the-shrinter-printer-shreder-combo/ SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============2177265891449762516==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 7 18:44:11 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2024 12:44:00 -0600 Message-ID: <65994baa-60a6-4b35-8a08-d37d420ef045@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7341174400874540590==" --===============7341174400874540590== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-08-17 1:46 a.m., Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 11:42:01PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 2024-08-16 12:11 p.m., Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > [...] >>> From what I can tell of a casual peruse of the documentation of CP/M-68K >>> and CP/M-86, they support the full address space of 4GiB and 1MiB >>> respectively. This is kind of obvious on the m68k since why would they >>> artificially limit it, but on x86 it's less obvious because they could >>> have restricted changing the segment registers. CP/M-86 *also* supports >>> an "8080 model" with CS =3D=3D DS =3D=3D ES, presumably to ease quick por= ts of >>> 8080 code through source-to-source translation. >=20 >> I picked up a bare bones 68000 single board computer, and the only OS is >> is a hacked CPM/68000 version in C. Any guess what compiler/assembler was >> used back then and on what host? Does one have sub directories? >=20 > Classic CP/M does not have subdirectories, and instead has 16 "user areas", > which are of limited utility. But of course the 68000 is far more powerful > than the x80, and the popular 68000 platforms all had hierarchical file > systems, so one might wonder if support had been added since it would be a > bit silly to have a machine which can access 16MiB of memory but is still > limited to a flat file system which can only hold a few tens of files. >=20 > Source code to CP/M-68K can be found at , > so I downloaded them to have a look. I looked at the 1.0x sources as they > are a ZIP file of conventional text files, whereas the later versions are > ZIP files of disk images which are harder to read without a running CP/M > system. >=20 > The bulk of the code is written in K&R C, with some assembly for things such > as exception handlers which can't be written in C or performance-critical > such as floating-point. The source code is for BDOS plus utilities, notably > including a C compiler and assembler. There are various other file droppings > which give a hint of what's going on here. >=20 > From a very rough perusal of the source code, these are my tentative answe= rs > to your questions: >=20 > The sources include a C compiler and assembler, and the readme says they are > "ALCYON Compiler/Assembler/Loader". So this is probably what everything was > built with. They are cross-platform, so long as you are using a > common-or-garden VAX or PDP-11 running Unix or VMS such as the one we all > had in our childhood bedrooms back then, VERSAdos (no, me neither), and > fortunately also natively on CP/M-68K. The file droppings suggest that > Alcyon Corporation probably cross-compiled it on VMS. >=20 > I can't find any likely-looking code in the BDOS sources pertaining to > subdirectories such as file types or attribute bits indicating a directory > entry is actually a subdirectory rather than a regular file, so I think > CP/M-68K still has a flat file system after all. The source for 1.1 comes as > 14 256,256-byte disk images, suggesting a lot of disk-swapping to build it > natively. >=20 I picked up two 68K systems, a cheap one (68000) and better one (6809=20 ops 68030) and it has cp/m 68k A: compressed in ROM. I am now just=20 waiting for 512mb CF cards. The file system is still flat, but you can have drives b: to e: ?: ?: still is ok for my use. They have microemacs, but finding the keybindings to cpm68k may be trickey. --===============7341174400874540590==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Sun Sep 8 08:43:54 2024 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2024 09:42:55 +0100 Message-ID: <68f27c4d-a610-4cf5-80a7-341039d01828@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1207720542977929377==" --===============1207720542977929377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharp computers from the early 80's were truly amazing. Every computer part they produced was a joy to see and feel because of its accuracy and design. If you've ever held a Sharp CE-152 data tape device, you know what I mean. Fortunately, I have a CE-510F with an internal power supply and floppy disk controller. If you're interested, please drop me a PM. Thomas On 07.09.2024 09:17, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > A while back I started studying more about the Sharp PC-5000 (and had it up > and running at VCFSW in 2023). I'm now coming back to that project, and > one thing I was never able to find was a compatible 5.25 disk drive. > > I've collected some information about this system at here: > https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000/ > > And I am hoping to put together a video about out. But one challenging > aspect is that its LCD screen is difficult to record (lots of > reflections). And despite having lots of schematic documentation now, I'm > still not savvy enough to try to export its screen content to an external > device that might have a backlight. > > From my notes, as I recall.... The 37-pin connector at the back of the > PC-5000 is not the same as the 37-pin connector at the back of the IO card > with the original IBM PC 5150. I believe the Sharp product model number > I am looking for CE-510F (which might be the same as MZ-80B in certain > markets). > > This isn't an urgent thing - the Bubble Memory modules of this PC-5000 are > still all working fine and make the system functional. But I do have a set > of disk with the system that might be interesting to try out. So just > broadcasting here, on the off-chance someone might be familiar with these > and know of a stash of accessories (most likely within a Japanese-speaking > community, where I think Sharp products were generally more popular). > > Thanks! > Steve v* --===============1207720542977929377==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Mon Sep 9 12:09:06 2024 From: cctalk@emailtoilet.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 12:08:59 +0000 Message-ID: <172588373980.4006402.3148887453903480610@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0182279968880540618==" --===============0182279968880540618== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Was updating my punch card database/site, www.ibmjunkman.com, and found somet= hing I don=E2=80=99t remember. The 026/029/129 keypunch units printed above row 12 using a dot matrix style = character. I still marvel at the plate and the whole mechanism that did the p= rinting. The 557 Interpreter could print on different rows using a solid type= slug to print. I have run across cards that had dot matrix type printing on rows other than = above the 12 row. Any idea what machines could do this? If any of you old unit record guys have any cards laying around I would love = to add them to my collection. Needless to say the stock 5081 would have to be= real unique for me not to have it already. Donald --===============0182279968880540618==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Sep 9 13:08:41 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Microsoft & Apple Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 15:08:24 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1439838540282721673==" --===============1439838540282721673== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 4 Sept 2024 at 15:28, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > I had not realized it was 27 yrs. ago that Microsoft =E2=80=98gave=E2=80=99= Apple $150-$200 > million. It was done to keep Microsoft safe from regulators - for its > monopoly practices. No, it was not. This is an oft-repeated lie. It was an out of court settlement because Video for Windows contained code stolen from Apple Quicktime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Canyon_Company It has been known and reported for years: https://www.zdnet.com/article/stop-the-lies-the-day-that-microsoft-saved-appl= e/ It was not an investment. That was a lie spread by the marketing lizards. Please don't repeat it or spread it. It is not true and never was. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1439838540282721673==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Sep 9 14:17:41 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 10:17:12 -0400 Message-ID: <432A2E18-7E75-4A87-9D60-D0511C0869CE@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <172588373980.4006402.3148887453903480610@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2391316218820073705==" --===============2391316218820073705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 9, 2024, at 8:08 AM, cctalk--- via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Was updating my punch card database/site, www.ibmjunkman.com, and found som= ething I don=E2=80=99t remember. >=20 > The 026/029/129 keypunch units printed above row 12 using a dot matrix styl= e character. I still marvel at the plate and the whole mechanism that did the= printing. The 557 Interpreter could print on different rows using a solid ty= pe slug to print. Is that what produced card 8 in your collection? I vaguely remember solid (n= ot dot matrix) lettering from Burroughs keypunch machines, which I used (brie= fly) around 1975. paul --===============2391316218820073705==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Mon Sep 9 15:59:36 2024 From: cctalk@emailtoilet.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 15:59:32 +0000 Message-ID: <172589757235.4006402.14036899321238206963@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <432A2E18-7E75-4A87-9D60-D0511C0869CE@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9060353400223738566==" --===============9060353400223738566== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure what created that card.=20 Card 152 appears to be a 557 interpreted card using data from another card.=20 Card 5507 has dot matrix printing on lower rows.=20 Neither card came from a pin feed form that could be printed on a line printe= r. --===============9060353400223738566==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Mon Sep 9 19:33:08 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 14:24:55 -0500 Message-ID: <319253672.408801.1725909895463@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <172589757235.4006402.14036899321238206963@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3394268279460981725==" --===============3394268279460981725== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the 1404 printer could read a selected number of columns and print anywhere (= or everywhere) on their face, with a switchable chain link with different fon= ts. I am pretty confident that is how you got non-dot matrix printing on a c= ard. 
--Carey
> On 09/09/2024 10:59 AM CDT cctalk--- via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =20 > Not sure what created that card.=20 > Card 152 appears to be a 557 interpreted card using data from another card.= =20 > Card 5507 has dot matrix printing on lower rows.=20 >=20 > Neither card came from a pin feed form that could be printed on a line prin= ter. --===============3394268279460981725==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Mon Sep 9 19:38:54 2024 From: cctalk@emailtoilet.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 19:38:47 +0000 Message-ID: <172591072762.4006402.7610945294008914288@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <319253672.408801.1725909895463@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0501867279768829889==" --===============0501867279768829889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Card 157 is from 1949. Don’t think the 1404 existed then. 😊 Was not aware of the 1404 before. Thanks. --===============0501867279768829889==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Sep 9 19:57:59 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 12:57:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172591072762.4006402.7610945294008914288@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3116628758326879265==" --===============3116628758326879265== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another minor detail about column alignment: There was a variant of the 029 punch (I don't remember the specific model) that could interpret/print on already punched cards. It printed 80 column aligned characters. With a drum card, it could be set to skip some and only do the desired ones. ("Regular" models of 029 printed along the top only while punching) (There was also a model of 029 for "verifying", where it read an already punched card while the operator was "punching" from the same data. If the key presses and data on thecards matched, then it would put a small notch on theend of the card. Some "service bureaus" cheated, and used it to "duplicate" blank cards, to have cards that were already "verifiaction notched" before they were even punched.) The 447? stand-alone interpreter did reasonably high speed interpret/print of decks of already punched cards. BUT, it could only do 60? columns on a pass, and they were not column aligned. It had a wire plug board to set which columns, printing positions, etc. Thus, 447 was fine for cards handed to customers/managers, etc., but for programmers who wanted aligned interpreting of specific cloumns, as being more convenient than manually deciphering the pattern of holes, the 29 variant was better, albeit slower. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3116628758326879265==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 02:04:22 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 21:04:05 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7231947711982076342==" --===============7231947711982076342== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Sep 9, 2024, 2:58 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > The 447? stand-alone interpreter did reasonably high speed interpret/print Perhaps you mean the 557? Sellam --===============7231947711982076342==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Sep 10 02:21:59 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 19:21:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7961452434250385144==" --===============7961452434250385144== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The 447? stand-alone interpreter did reasonably high speed interpret/print On Mon, 9 Sep 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Perhaps you mean the 557? I do, indeed. Thank you That was a unit-record machine that I didn't use much. For my father's work, I mostly did keypunch, verify, counting sorter, and lots of simple FORTRAN.. At Goddard, I did my own punching, and put in time on the Gerber Data Digitizer (a graphic arts style table with etch-a-sketch controlled crosshairs and a foot pedal, connected to an 026 punch). A little APL, and a lot of FORTRAN, particularly writing stuff to output to calcomp and Stromberg-Datagrphix plotters. ("plodders") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7961452434250385144==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 03:04:15 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 23:03:56 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8571652649811190057==" --===============8571652649811190057== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a 47 tape to card punch On Mon, Sep 9, 2024, 10:04 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 9, 2024, 2:58 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > The 447? stand-alone interpreter did reasonably high speed > interpret/print > > > Perhaps you mean the 557? > > Sellam > --===============8571652649811190057==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Sep 10 03:20:46 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 20:20:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4361245074223456551==" --===============4361245074223456551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 9 Sep 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > There is a 47 tape to card punch I don't think that I ever saw one of those. Was it IBM? When was it available? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4361245074223456551==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 03:53:27 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 23:53:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3841395327188414196==" --===============3841395327188414196== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IBM 1951-54 IIRC. I have a few early punch and reader docs. They span from just after WWII and into the early 701, 704, 650 days On Mon, Sep 9, 2024, 11:20 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 9 Sep 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > There is a 47 tape to card punch > > I don't think that I ever saw one of those. > Was it IBM? > When was it available? > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============3841395327188414196==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Sep 10 04:15:01 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 21:14:55 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5828018573490844478==" --===============5828018573490844478== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 9 Sep 2024, Bill Degnan wrote: > IBM 1951-54 IIRC. I have a few early punch and reader docs. They span > from just after WWII and into the early 701, 704, 650 days Thanks I got into unit record stuff in the mid to late 1960s. But, my interests were a little esoteric, and I never really learned the mainstream DP stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5828018573490844478==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Sep 10 05:04:41 2024 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 01:04:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0154059599647259334==" --===============0154059599647259334== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 9 Sep 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > IBM 1951-54 IIRC. I have a few early punch and reader docs. They span > from just after WWII and into the early 701, 704, 650 days > > On Mon, Sep 9, 2024, 11:20 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Mon, 9 Sep 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >>> There is a 47 tape to card punch >> >> I don't think that I ever saw one of those. >> Was it IBM? >> When was it available? IBM 047 Tape-To-Card Printing Punch: http://q7.neurotica.com/046-1.jpg http://q7.neurotica.com/046-2.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============0154059599647259334==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 05:05:08 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Punch card info Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 01:04:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2578210904340611143==" --===============2578210904340611143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I actually used the 046 non-printing version back in the day to convert PPT to 80 col. cards, although I didn't deal with the tape it produced; cool machine. https://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Training/Card_Equipme= nt_Summary_Aug57.pdf On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 at 11:20=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 9 Sep 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > There is a 47 tape to card punch > > I don't think that I ever saw one of those. > Was it IBM? > When was it available? > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============2578210904340611143==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 07:29:17 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] A museum for the Brits and those who can reach it easily Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 09:29:08 +0200 Message-ID: <6f28fb98-66d7-4864-a8a0-69cbf01ce94c@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2226531463482545179==" --===============2226531463482545179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had never heard of the Jim Austin Computer Collection before... https://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ « The Computer Sheds The Computer Sheds hold the Jim Austin Computer Collection, over 1500 computers and many thousands of other artifacts such as books, calculators, spares, test equipment as well as a fine collection of Radios and Valves (the RadioShed). It has some incredible items including a computer that weighs over 10 Tons, a computer that ran for over 30 years, one of the first computer mice, and many others. It is one of the largest collections of computers and related technology anywhere. » 1min video: https://www.facebook.com/bbchumberside/videos/3790794644572336 -- Liam Proven --===============2226531463482545179==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Tue Sep 10 15:12:04 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 10:11:53 -0500 Message-ID: <304652029.2462512.1725981113643@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0912786098526878545==" --===============0912786098526878545== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK kids, let's save these things from the scrapyard! :-) mcl --===============0912786098526878545==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Tue Sep 10 15:35:49 2024 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 15:35:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <304652029.2462512.1725981113643@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6803675229720993661==" --===============6803675229720993661== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sadly won=E2=80=99t be bidding as the shipping quotes to me even for the smal= l HP 2100S are too much. For example that HP is 5 grand sans insurance and al= l customs fees.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On 10 Sep 2024, at 16:12, Mark Linimon via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOK kids, let's save these things from the scrapyard! :-) >=20 > mcl --===============6803675229720993661==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Sep 10 17:01:06 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 13:00:55 -0400 Message-ID: <4C7FF4E3-B1C4-4DCB-B886-D4962D05EFD8@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <304652029.2462512.1725981113643@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1214395109326009015==" --===============1214395109326009015== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 10, 2024, at 11:11 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > OK kids, let's save these things from the scrapyard! :-) >=20 > mcl Wow, someone paid $56k for a MITS ALTAIR. And $945k for an Apple 1. Not to = mention $718k for an Enigma machine. A bunch of things went for way above th= e estimate, while for others it's much closer. One wonders why; I suppose a = possible explanation is "because the auction house doesn't particularly under= stand the market for these things". paul --===============1214395109326009015==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Sep 10 17:28:05 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 13:27:51 -0400 Message-ID: <14a478f9-82fb-4203-ac9b-c2ee18122b99@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <4C7FF4E3-B1C4-4DCB-B886-D4962D05EFD8@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2546486944243023383==" --===============2546486944243023383== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, you can get a KI10 for <2k right now at Christie's.... (No, I will not bid. I will not bid because my life would be over if I won) On 9/10/2024 1:00 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 10, 2024, at 11:11 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: >> >> OK kids, let's save these things from the scrapyard! :-) >> >> mcl >=20 > Wow, someone paid $56k for a MITS ALTAIR. And $945k for an Apple 1. Not t= o mention $718k for an Enigma machine. A bunch of things went for way above = the estimate, while for others it's much closer. One wonders why; I suppose = a possible explanation is "because the auction house doesn't particularly und= erstand the market for these things". >=20 > paul >=20 --===============2546486944243023383==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Tue Sep 10 18:41:48 2024 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Back-plane wrap (was Re: Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction)) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 20:41:24 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9e3b4b64-58b1-46ce-af78-2d6527a96d0d@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4784393865609278580==" --===============4784393865609278580== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would you mind me using your tips for wire wrapping for a tutorial at the Computer History Wiki (https://gunkies.org/wiki/Main_Page)? I've learned wire-wrapping right now and thought others should get a little help. Ulli Am Sa., 31. Aug. 2024 um 07:55 Uhr schrieb Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > On 8/30/2024 7:25 PM, cz via cctalk wrote: > > To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an extended > > memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap backplane and > > enough cards to make it work but I've never done wire-wrap on this sort > > of scale. > > > > I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of wire. Is there > > any sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping? > > Some of the older (single-sided especially) DEC back-planes were wrapped > with heavier gauge wire, which needs a different tool. The newer > back-planes seem to be wrapped with 30 gauge wire. You can tell the old > connector blocks, as the pins appear rectangular, rather then square. > > There are all kinds of opportunity for optimizing routing for distance, > cross-talk and and other esoterica. One thing that's worth doing, > though, is to wrap for a max height of two, and such that all the > connections (except possibly the last end of a given signal) are at the > same height. So, if A B C and D are to be connected together, you > connect A to B, then C to D (thus all at the lower level), then put the > connection of B to C at a higher level. This dramatically cuts down on > the amount you have to *unwrap* to fix something. Avoid situations which > cross the height boundary, because then you have to keep unwrapping > stuff you'd rather not, to expose the buried lower side. > > If you are wrapping by hand, you can be assured that you *will* make > mistakes and have to fix something. > > I predict you will also find that you are really sick of wire-wrap long > before you are done. These days, PCBs are inexpensive, and less error > prone (in the sense that you almost always end up with exactly the > connections in the netlist). OTOH, connectors are expensive and hard to > reuse when soldered to a PCB. So you've got to be really confident of > your netlist. > > You might consider investing in a tool where you pull the trigger to do > the wrap. You'll probably get a more consistent result, and > significantly fewer repetitive motion issues. > > Hope that helps! > > Vince > --===============4784393865609278580==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Sep 10 20:31:34 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 13:31:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4C7FF4E3-B1C4-4DCB-B886-D4962D05EFD8@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4524983969686075302==" --===============4524983969686075302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Wow, someone paid $56k for a MITS ALTAIR. And $945k for an Apple 1. Not t= o mention $718k for an Enigma machine. A bunch of things went for way above = the estimate, while for others it's much closer. One wonders why; I suppose = a possible explanation is "because the auction house doesn't particularly und= erstand the market for these things". Any special provenance? (Hitler's personal Enigma?, BillG's' Altair?,=20 Steve's Apple?) Or just multiple bidders on each item, unaware of more reasonable sources? (I think that those prices are high, or the bidders were) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4524983969686075302==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Sep 10 21:28:43 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 17:28:35 -0400 Message-ID: <5C15FFBD-C618-4590-BB36-9EDD058F2CCC@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8096319278868468856==" --===============8096319278868468856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 10, 2024, at 4:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Wow, someone paid $56k for a MITS ALTAIR. And $945k for an Apple 1. Not = to mention $718k for an Enigma machine. A bunch of things went for way above= the estimate, while for others it's much closer. One wonders why; I suppose= a possible explanation is "because the auction house doesn't particularly un= derstand the market for these things". >=20 > Any special provenance? (Hitler's personal Enigma?, BillG's' Altair?, Stev= e's Apple?) Nope. But the Enigma is a four-rotor Navy model, not the more common 3-rotor= one. I didn't know that the Navy had those; I had heard of 4-rotor machines= only as something the Gestapo used. > Or just multiple bidders on each item, unaware of more reasonable sources? > (I think that those prices are high, or the bidders were) Seems that way. For that matter, so does $250k for the Xerox Alto, and a rou= nd million for the Cray 1. Not to mention $32k for the Cyber console display= (I would have liked that one, but not at that price!). And perhaps craziest= of all, $189k for a 360/91 console display. Just the lights panel, nothing = more. paul --===============8096319278868468856==-- From ronstrojnyiii@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 22:15:19 2024 From: Ron Strojny To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 17:15:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4C7FF4E3-B1C4-4DCB-B886-D4962D05EFD8@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6803732734905506112==" --===============6803732734905506112== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Sep 10, 2024 at 12:24 Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Sep 10, 2024, at 11:11 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > OK kids, let's save these things from the scrapyard! :-) > > > > mcl > > Wow, someone paid $56k for a MITS ALTAIR. And $945k for an Apple 1. Not > to mention $718k for an Enigma machine. A bunch of things went for way > above the estimate, while for others it's much closer. One wonders why; I > suppose a possible explanation is "because the auction house doesn't > particularly understand the market for these things". > > paul > > Was anyone watching the stream of the auction? Some of the more expensive items sold to people inside christies if you listened closely. --===============6803732734905506112==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 22:41:33 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 16:41:16 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5C15FFBD-C618-4590-BB36-9EDD058F2CCC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1419821100442408656==" --===============1419821100442408656== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The buyers might be paying a premium because the items came from "the collection of Paul Allen", and because of the way Christie's described the lots, they may have come off with the impression that he personally restored and used all these himself. This whole thing is so stupid. Oh well, at least there's now precedent for $50K Altair 8800s. My retirement is secured. Sellam On Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 4:24 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Sep 10, 2024, at 4:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> Wow, someone paid $56k for a MITS ALTAIR. And $945k for an Apple 1. > Not to mention $718k for an Enigma machine. A bunch of things went for way > above the estimate, while for others it's much closer. One wonders why; I > suppose a possible explanation is "because the auction house doesn't > particularly understand the market for these things". > > > > Any special provenance? (Hitler's personal Enigma?, BillG's' Altair?, > Steve's Apple?) > > Nope. But the Enigma is a four-rotor Navy model, not the more common > 3-rotor one. I didn't know that the Navy had those; I had heard of 4-rotor > machines only as something the Gestapo used. > > > Or just multiple bidders on each item, unaware of more reasonable > sources? > > (I think that those prices are high, or the bidders were) > > Seems that way. For that matter, so does $250k for the Xerox Alto, and a > round million for the Cray 1. Not to mention $32k for the Cyber console > display (I would have liked that one, but not at that price!). And perhaps > craziest of all, $189k for a 360/91 console display. Just the lights > panel, nothing more. > > paul > > --===============1419821100442408656==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 22:46:48 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 18:46:42 -0400 Message-ID: <89d1378e-16c7-444e-8c06-3174f09ea92c@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4903151912164408737==" --===============4903151912164408737== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmm, I have a DEC PDP11 BA23 box that was once owned by the guy that=20 forced Lech Walesa into a second runoff election for President of Poland=20 in 1990. Maybe I should get Christie's to sell it for me and just use SimH :-) cheers, Nigel On 2024-09-10 18:41, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > The buyers might be paying a premium because the items came from "the > collection of Paul Allen", and because of the way Christie's described the > lots, they may have come off with the impression that he personally > restored and used all these himself. > > This whole thing is so stupid. > > Oh well, at least there's now precedent for $50K Altair 8800s. My > retirement is secured. > > Sellam > > On Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 4:24 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > >> >>> On Sep 10, 2024, at 4:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>> Wow, someone paid $56k for a MITS ALTAIR. And $945k for an Apple 1. >> Not to mention $718k for an Enigma machine. A bunch of things went for way >> above the estimate, while for others it's much closer. One wonders why; I >> suppose a possible explanation is "because the auction house doesn't >> particularly understand the market for these things". >>> Any special provenance? (Hitler's personal Enigma?, BillG's' Altair?, >> Steve's Apple?) >> >> Nope. But the Enigma is a four-rotor Navy model, not the more common >> 3-rotor one. I didn't know that the Navy had those; I had heard of 4-rotor >> machines only as something the Gestapo used. >> >>> Or just multiple bidders on each item, unaware of more reasonable >> sources? >>> (I think that those prices are high, or the bidders were) >> Seems that way. For that matter, so does $250k for the Xerox Alto, and a >> round million for the Cray 1. Not to mention $32k for the Cyber console >> display (I would have liked that one, but not at that price!). And perhaps >> craziest of all, $189k for a 360/91 console display. Just the lights >> panel, nothing more. >> >> paul >> >> --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============4903151912164408737==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Tue Sep 10 22:47:24 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 23:37:52 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5C15FFBD-C618-4590-BB36-9EDD058F2CCC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0125938469393251267==" --===============0125938469393251267== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Any special provenance? (Hitler's personal Enigma?, BillG's' Altair?, > > Steve's Apple?) > > Nope. But the Enigma is a four-rotor Navy model, not the more common > 3-rotor one. I didn't know that the Navy had those; I had heard of > 4-rotor machines only as something the Gestapo used. There is one Navy model on display at Bletchley Park FWIW, along with the story behind the expansion. Maciej --===============0125938469393251267==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 23:00:18 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 19:00:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <89d1378e-16c7-444e-8c06-3174f09ea92c@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4474588632764698636==" --===============4474588632764698636== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 10 Sept 2024 at 18:54, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hmm, I have a DEC PDP11 BA23 box that was once owned by the guy that > forced Lech Walesa into a second runoff election for President of Poland > in 1990. > > Maybe I should get Christie's to sell it for me and just use SimH :-) > > The DEC stuff in the auction seems to have magically disappeared, probably since it didn't reach anywhere near the Christie's estimates. I wonder what they're going to do with it now... -Henry --===============4474588632764698636==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Sep 10 23:38:45 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 19:38:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1512567613262087816==" --===============1512567613262087816== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 10, 2024, at 7:00 PM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Tue, 10 Sept 2024 at 18:54, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> Hmm, I have a DEC PDP11 BA23 box that was once owned by the guy that >> forced Lech Walesa into a second runoff election for President of Poland >> in 1990. >>=20 >> Maybe I should get Christie's to sell it for me and just use SimH :-) >>=20 >>=20 > The DEC stuff in the auction seems to have magically disappeared, probably > since it didn't reach anywhere near the Christie's estimates. I wonder > what they're going to do with it now... That would be what you'd expect if there was a "reserve" and the bids did not= reach that number. But what DEC stuff are you talking about? There is a bunch in the on-line au= ction, but that isn't finished yet, it runs through 9/12. paul --===============1512567613262087816==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Sep 10 23:41:52 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 18:41:45 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3199512838574108964==" --===============3199512838574108964== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/10/24 17:37, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >>> Any special provenance? (Hitler's personal Enigma?, BillG's' Altair?, >>> Steve's Apple?) >> Nope. But the Enigma is a four-rotor Navy model, not the more common >> 3-rotor one. I didn't know that the Navy had those; I had heard of >> 4-rotor machines only as something the Gestapo used. > There is one Navy model on display at Bletchley Park FWIW, along with the > story behind the expansion. The army version only had 3 rotors because the Germans figured army messages would be useful only for a short time (move to next bridge over river) and useless after an hour or so.  the Germans knew that the Enigma was a weak system, so they figured they needed better for the navy (meet sub tender at 9AM at coordinates XY) as the messages could be of use by the time they were broken. The Germans apparently had no idea that the allies put together a MASSIVE mechanized code breaking effort.  Bletchley Park had 6 bombes of the Turing design, but the US had 360 machines made by NCR under insane secrecy.  If you saw the movie "The Imitation Game" the model they showed was pretty accurate.  It tried about 24 combinations per second, and took quite a while to find the starting position for the navy code.  The NCR machines ran so fast that when they got a match they had to brake to a stop and back up to record the match.  The British bombe rang a bell and stopped when it got a selected level of a partial match, the NCR machine recorded the match on adding machine tape and then continued trying the rest of the possible combinations.  it tried 1440 combinations/second, and could break the navy code in under 20 minutes, the army code in six minutes. The code was changed every midnight, so for the first message of the day the code breakers had to guess which rotors were to be used that day.  There were 7 rotors, you picked either 3 or 4 for army or navy respectively.  In the US, they set up 26 machines (I think) with all possible combinations of rotors and then found the starting position of the only one that came out right.  Then, once they knew which rotors to use, they re-set all 360 machines to that arrangement and cracked the starting position of 360 messages in parallel.  The messages were sent by underwater cable to the US for cracking from various intercept sites. For higher level message traffic, the Germans had the Lorenz SZ42 (Schlussel Zusatz, literally key attachment, but meaning cypher attachment) which was a VERY strong (for the time) modern encryption device.  But, it too, had a weakness.  The Bletchely Park guys had intercepts of this system that they codenamed "Tunny" and the sender and recipient were indicated in clear text, so they knew this was important stuff.  The machine had rotors that had different numbers of steps, related by prime numbers, so that the cryptoperiod was quite long.  One rotor of each group could either XOR one serial data bit of the Teletype character, or not alter it.  There were two groups of 5 rotors.  Each rotor had "bumps" that could be flipped up or down.  One group of rotors advanced one step for each character, the other group advanced intermittently, determined by two other rotors.  Bletchely Park NEVER saw one of these machines, but by MASSIVE statistical analysis, they managed to figure out completely how it worked, which blows me away!  They built an electronic code cracking machine that ran two paper tapes that differed in length by one character, and as the tapes ran through the reader repeatedly, this managed to compare every character of the ciphertext against every character of the crib tape, and the machine accumulated some statistical information from that.  This machine was called "Colossus". One of the huge cracks they got was a long message from Gen. Erwin Rommel detailing what he thought were the strengths and weaknesses of the allied positions.  We used that to take advantage of what we thought the Germans would do to exploit that. Another big crack was an Irish navy officer had been killed, and with his family's permission, papers with disinformation on the D-day attack were put in his pockets.  Tunny intercepts later showed the Germans were moving positions based on this disinformation, and it helped the invasion go better for the allies. Jon --===============3199512838574108964==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 23:43:55 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 19:43:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0898638116858894478==" --===============0898638116858894478== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 10 Sept 2024 at 19:38, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Sep 10, 2024, at 7:00 PM, Henry Bent via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Tue, 10 Sept 2024 at 18:54, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Hmm, I have a DEC PDP11 BA23 box that was once owned by the guy that > >> forced Lech Walesa into a second runoff election for President of Poland > >> in 1990. > >> > >> Maybe I should get Christie's to sell it for me and just use SimH :-) > >> > >> > > The DEC stuff in the auction seems to have magically disappeared, > probably > > since it didn't reach anywhere near the Christie's estimates. I wonder > > what they're going to do with it now... > > That would be what you'd expect if there was a "reserve" and the bids did > not reach that number. > > But what DEC stuff are you talking about? There is a bunch in the on-line > auction, but that isn't finished yet, it runs through 9/12. > I'm looking at https://www.christies.com/en/auction/pushing-boundaries-ingenuity-from-the-pa= ul-g-allen-collection-30730/ where there are currently 36 items listed, and I swear there were 50+ when I looked at it earlier, including a bunch of DEC stuff. Am I just not looking in the right place? -Henry --===============0898638116858894478==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Tue Sep 10 23:48:20 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 19:48:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3706929882978447999==" --===============3706929882978447999== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 10 Sept 2024 at 19:43, Henry Bent wrote: > On Tue, 10 Sept 2024 at 19:38, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> >> > On Sep 10, 2024, at 7:00 PM, Henry Bent via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> > On Tue, 10 Sept 2024 at 18:54, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < >> > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Hmm, I have a DEC PDP11 BA23 box that was once owned by the guy that >> >> forced Lech Walesa into a second runoff election for President of >> Poland >> >> in 1990. >> >> >> >> Maybe I should get Christie's to sell it for me and just use SimH :-) >> >> >> >> >> > The DEC stuff in the auction seems to have magically disappeared, >> probably >> > since it didn't reach anywhere near the Christie's estimates. I wonder >> > what they're going to do with it now... >> >> That would be what you'd expect if there was a "reserve" and the bids did >> not reach that number. >> >> But what DEC stuff are you talking about? There is a bunch in the >> on-line auction, but that isn't finished yet, it runs through 9/12. >> > > I'm looking at > https://www.christies.com/en/auction/pushing-boundaries-ingenuity-from-the-= paul-g-allen-collection-30730/ > where there are currently 36 items listed, and I swear there were 50+ when > I looked at it earlier, including a bunch of DEC stuff. Am I just not > looking in the right place? > > -Henry > Okay, I figured it out, there are two different auctions. The one I linked above is done, but there is another: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-coll= ection/lots/3726 that is in progress, and that's the link that I was looking at. I apologize for my confusion, I suppose I'm just having a bit of brain fog. -Henry --===============3706929882978447999==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Sep 10 23:50:09 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 16:50:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5C15FFBD-C618-4590-BB36-9EDD058F2CCC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5347351852894552826==" --===============5347351852894552826== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning wrote: > And perhaps craziest of all, $189k for a 360/91 console display. Just > the lights panel, nothing more. Well, that might be all thatthe interior decorators wanted, for hanging on the wall --===============5347351852894552826==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Sep 10 23:53:05 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 16:52:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3908365375349066779==" --===============3908365375349066779== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "bought by Christies" might mean that individual employees, or corporate, might offer a paid "proxy bidding" service? --===============3908365375349066779==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Sep 10 23:56:26 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 19:56:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0041284888854261606==" --===============0041284888854261606== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 10, 2024, at 7:41 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > ... > Another big crack was an Irish navy officer had been killed, and with his f= amily's permission, papers with disinformation on the D-day attack were put i= n his pockets. Tunny intercepts later showed the Germans were moving positio= ns based on this disinformation, and it helped the invasion go better for the= allies. I think you're talking about "Operation Mincemeat", the subject of a quite go= od recent movie. The body in question was Welsh, not an actual officer but a= "legend" was created out of whole cloth for an imaginary officer. See Wikip= edia for the whole story, which includes a picture of his grave marker that = shows both names. paul --===============0041284888854261606==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Sep 10 23:57:17 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 19:57:10 -0400 Message-ID: <35C52ED5-E574-4E87-8A20-87DF32FAE301@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9116009945413771649==" --===============9116009945413771649== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The terms of sale indicate that Christie's employees are allowed to participa= te for themselves and if so are identified as such, but they get no special c= onsideration if they do. paul > On Sep 10, 2024, at 7:52 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > "bought by Christies" might mean that individual employees, or corporate, m= ight offer a paid "proxy bidding" service? --===============9116009945413771649==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Sep 11 00:07:48 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 17:07:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <35C52ED5-E574-4E87-8A20-87DF32FAE301@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4049361635384109490==" --===============4049361635384109490== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> "bought by Christies" might mean that individual employees, or corporate, = might offer a paid "proxy bidding" service? On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The terms of sale indicate that Christie's employees are allowed to partici= pate for themselves and if so are identified as such, but they get no special= consideration if they do. Unless there was specific mandate not to do so, I can imagine either a=20 potential buyer or an employee initiating a "I'll give you 15% over what=20 you pay, up to $100K, if you get it for me." --===============4049361635384109490==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Wed Sep 11 00:10:42 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 20:10:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8068012602787120166==" --===============8068012602787120166== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The original movie was called 'The Man Who Never Was'=20 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049471/?ref_=3Dfn_al_tt_1 So they made another new version? On 2024-09-10 19:56, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Sep 10, 2024, at 7:41 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk= wrote: >> >> ... >> Another big crack was an Irish navy officer had been killed, and with his = family's permission, papers with disinformation on the D-day attack were put = in his pockets. Tunny intercepts later showed the Germans were moving positi= ons based on this disinformation, and it helped the invasion go better for th= e allies. > I think you're talking about "Operation Mincemeat", the subject of a quite = good recent movie. The body in question was Welsh, not an actual officer but= a "legend" was created out of whole cloth for an imaginary officer. See Wik= ipedia for the whole story, which includes a picture of his grave marker tha= t shows both names. > > paul > --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============8068012602787120166==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Sep 11 00:31:25 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 00:31:18 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0059570826444548273==" --===============0059570826444548273== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. Operation Mincemeat. Released in 2021. Operation Mincemeat Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2024, at 17:10, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: =EF=BB=BFThe original movie was called 'The Man Who Never Was' https://www.im= db.com/title/tt0049471/?ref_=3Dfn_al_tt_1 So they made another new version? On 2024-09-10 19:56, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Sep 10, 2024, at 7:41 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk w= rote: ... Another big crack was an Irish navy officer had been killed, and with his fam= ily's permission, papers with disinformation on the D-day attack were put in = his pockets. Tunny intercepts later showed the Germans were moving positions= based on this disinformation, and it helped the invasion go better for the a= llies. I think you're talking about "Operation Mincemeat", the subject of a quite go= od recent movie. The body in question was Welsh, not an actual officer but a= "legend" was created out of whole cloth for an imaginary officer. See Wikip= edia for the whole story, which includes a picture of his grave marker that = shows both names. paul -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============0059570826444548273==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Wed Sep 11 00:42:47 2024 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 18:42:30 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0375104176475527297==" --===============0375104176475527297== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 4:41 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The buyers might be paying a premium because the items came from "the > collection of Paul Allen", and because of the way Christie's described the > lots, they may have come off with the impression that he personally > restored and used all these himself. > > This whole thing is so stupid. > > Oh well, at least there's now precedent for $50K Altair 8800s. My > retirement is secured. > Next week there will be 50 of them o. Ebay for this price. Warner Sellam > > On Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 4:24 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2024, at 4:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> Wow, someone paid $56k for a MITS ALTAIR. And $945k for an Apple 1. > > Not to mention $718k for an Enigma machine. A bunch of things went for > way > > above the estimate, while for others it's much closer. One wonders why; > I > > suppose a possible explanation is "because the auction house doesn't > > particularly understand the market for these things". > > > > > > Any special provenance? (Hitler's personal Enigma?, BillG's' Altair?, > > Steve's Apple?) > > > > Nope. But the Enigma is a four-rotor Navy model, not the more common > > 3-rotor one. I didn't know that the Navy had those; I had heard of > 4-rotor > > machines only as something the Gestapo used. > > > > > Or just multiple bidders on each item, unaware of more reasonable > > sources? > > > (I think that those prices are high, or the bidders were) > > > > Seems that way. For that matter, so does $250k for the Xerox Alto, and a > > round million for the Cray 1. Not to mention $32k for the Cyber console > > display (I would have liked that one, but not at that price!). And > perhaps > > craziest of all, $189k for a 360/91 console display. Just the lights > > panel, nothing more. > > > > paul > > > > > --===============0375104176475527297==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Sep 11 00:46:59 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 18:46:40 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218149F0E8B65CD79647C26BE49B2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5159064517026445636==" --===============5159064517026445636== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's a fun telling of the story ==> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Iipsxj3hRpE Sellam On Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 5:31 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Yes. Operation Mincemeat. Released in 2021. > Operation Mincemeat > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 10, 2024, at 17:10, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > The original movie was called 'The Man Who Never Was' > https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049471/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 > > So they made another new version? > > > On 2024-09-10 19:56, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Sep 10, 2024, at 7:41 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > Another big crack was an Irish navy officer had been killed, and with his > family's permission, papers with disinformation on the D-day attack were > put in his pockets. Tunny intercepts later showed the Germans were moving > positions based on this disinformation, and it helped the invasion go > better for the allies. > I think you're talking about "Operation Mincemeat", the subject of a quite > good recent movie. The body in question was Welsh, not an actual officer > but a "legend" was created out of whole cloth for an imaginary officer. > See Wikipedia for the whole story, which includes a picture of his grave > marker that shows both names. > > paul > > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > --===============5159064517026445636==-- From cz@bunsen.crystel.com Wed Sep 11 05:43:05 2024 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 21:06:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2650881244754833165==" --===============2650881244754833165== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting. I wonder how they handled the stekler boards Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 10, 2024, at 7:53=E2=80=AFPM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF"bought by Christies" might mean that individual employees, or cor= porate, might offer a paid "proxy bidding" service? --===============2650881244754833165==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Wed Sep 11 06:03:19 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 01:03:08 -0500 Message-ID: <1024735940.2348666.1726034588330@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2896488183727344027==" --===============2896488183727344027== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Next week there will be 50 of them o. Ebay for this price. (looks around the room) Make that 52. mcl --===============2896488183727344027==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Sep 11 14:43:37 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 07:43:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1024735940.2348666.1726034588330@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1463943144084278267==" --===============1463943144084278267== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 53 On Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 11:03 PM Mark Linimon wrote: > > Next week there will be 50 of them o. Ebay for this price. > > (looks around the room) > > Make that 52. > > mcl > --===============1463943144084278267==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Sep 11 16:13:21 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 11:13:12 -0500 Message-ID: <5735ef33-90af-8c4f-861a-576f702996ff@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2135855162533610395==" --===============2135855162533610395== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/10/24 20:06, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > Interesting. I wonder how they handled the stekler boards The stecker (plugboard) is just another rotor that never moves, so is much easier to deal with. If you have the codebooks, you also know the stecker plug setting, but without the books you have to guess that.  The bombes had provision for the steckers. Jon --===============2135855162533610395==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 11 18:42:37 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 12:42:27 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8532868670578132559==" --===============8532868670578132559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-09-11 8:43 a.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > 53 >=20 > On Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 11:03 PM Mark Linimon wrote: >=20 >>> Next week there will be 50 of them o. Ebay for this price. >> >> (looks around the room) >> >> Make that 52. >> >> mcl >> But as the ratio of buyers is a complex number. It is often in the=20 imaginary realm. -200j,3 is my guess. The number of retro 6502/z80 projects seem to be on the rise. Now even a TTL version. https://hackaday.io/project/190345-isetta-ttl-computer/log/232670progress-o= f-new-pcb It is the lack of cases that sadly are limited. Ben. --===============8532868670578132559==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Sep 11 20:20:01 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 13:18:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4784783608157704139==" --===============4784783608157704139== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 11:49=E2=80=AFAM ben via cctalk wrote: > Now even a TTL version. > > https://hackaday.io/project/190345-isetta-ttl-computer/log/232670progress-o= f-new-pcb That link is bad. It is not good. It is the lack of cases that sadly are limited. People generally 3D print their own nowadays. And I imagine you can still buy generic enclosures of all sizes from Amazon or eBay or Ali Baba or whatever. Sellam --===============4784783608157704139==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Sep 12 02:10:55 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 21:10:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2345565328728966728==" --===============2345565328728966728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Links fine, just needs a slash / before progress. Nice TTL build with sound/video, VGA, PS/2 (although in this context should "sound" on the PCB be labeled "audio"? just a nitpick) Regarding cases - for the X16, they went with the ATX form factor and that's worked out for a lot of folks. The "official" X16 cases still only comes from the UK and was something around $150 (we call it the "pizza box" case, since it does resemble a box for a small pizza- giving it somewhat of a unique personality). Many folks seemed to desire a classic "wedge" case, to attach in one of the "official" keyboards. I consider the SOL-20 the OG of wedge shape computers. You can order decent quality carbon fiber off Amazon, good density that's easy to cut. Here is one I made (although maybe not really considered a case, but a "display shelf") https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D9sNIyPpBPqM On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 3:20=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 11:49=E2=80=AFAM ben via cctalk > wrote: > > > Now even a TTL version. > > > > > https://hackaday.io/project/190345-isetta-ttl-computer/log/232670progress-o= f-new-pcb > > > That link is bad. It is not good. > > It is the lack of cases that sadly are limited. > > > People generally 3D print their own nowadays. And I imagine you can still > buy generic enclosures of all sizes from Amazon or eBay or Ali Baba or > whatever. > > Sellam > --===============2345565328728966728==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 12 02:13:12 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 20:13:05 -0600 Message-ID: <9f872c35-31bb-4bc0-a090-a7b1c25f1335@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2883258856672696615==" --===============2883258856672696615== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-09-11 2:18 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 11:49=E2=80=AFAM ben via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> Now even a TTL version. >> >> https://hackaday.io/project/190345-isetta-ttl-computer/log/232670progress-= of-new-pcb >=20 >=20 > That link is bad. It is not good. The link worked fine before the copy and paste. :( google 'isetta-ttl-computer' works But really, do have room for more computers:) > It is the lack of cases that sadly are limited. >=20 >=20 > People generally 3D print their own nowadays. And I imagine you can still > buy generic enclosures of all sizes from Amazon or eBay or Ali Baba or > whatever. There are services on line for front panels and they often do cases. I was hoping a for ham radio guy type service as well. > Sellam --===============2883258856672696615==-- From als@thangorodrim.de Thu Sep 12 20:00:12 2024 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 21:58:41 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5C15FFBD-C618-4590-BB36-9EDD058F2CCC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0646494584265450134==" --===============0646494584265450134== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Sep 10, 2024 at 05:28:35PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On Sep 10, 2024, at 4:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > > wrote: > >=20 > > On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> Wow, someone paid $56k for a MITS ALTAIR. And $945k for an Apple 1. Not > >> to mention $718k for an Enigma machine. A bunch of things went for way > >> above the estimate, while for others it's much closer. One wonders why;= I > >> suppose a possible explanation is "because the auction house doesn't > >> particularly understand the market for these things". > >=20 > > Any special provenance? (Hitler's personal Enigma?, BillG's' Altair?, > > Steve's Apple?) >=20 > Nope. But the Enigma is a four-rotor Navy model, not the more common 3-rot= or > one. I didn't know that the Navy had those; I had heard of 4-rotor machines > only as something the Gestapo used. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine "A four-rotor Enigma was introduced by the Navy for U-boat traffic on 1 February 1942, called M4 [..]" That page also has a photo of a 4-rotor Kriegsmarine Enigma machine. Kind regards, Alex. --=20 "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============0646494584265450134==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Fri Sep 13 00:30:07 2024 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 17:29:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1627670546197839933==" --===============1627670546197839933== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This lot-group is closed. Sale prices were insane. https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-col= lection/lots/3726 (In my estimation) a few items went for high but maybe-semi-sensible prices, = everything else was stratosphere. ASR-33: 24K$ !! ? !! --===============1627670546197839933==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 01:01:25 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 21:01:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6663050182720500842==" --===============6663050182720500842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder if anyone has done a study of high-profile auction sale prices vs apples to apples contemporary sales prices (ebay, etc) of the same item. Paul Allen's [item name] will always sell for more that Joe Schmo's [item name]. Buyer can forever say this was Paul Allen's [item name]. The providence Sorry Joe Schmo, you're items must be sold on Ebay at regular prices. Provenance is everything on the high-end collectibles market. On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 8:30 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > This lot-group is closed. Sale prices were insane. > > > https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-co= llection/lots/3726 > < > https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-co= llection/lots/3726 > > > > (In my estimation) a few items went for high but maybe-semi-sensible > prices, everything else was stratosphere. > > ASR-33: 24K$ !! ? !! > > --===============6663050182720500842==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 01:03:01 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 21:02:43 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1194693864494768113==" --===============1194693864494768113== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oops phone autocorrect..provenance is the correct term. B On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 9:01 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > I wonder if anyone has done a study of high-profile auction sale prices vs > apples to apples contemporary sales prices (ebay, etc) of the same item. > Paul Allen's [item name] will always sell for more that Joe Schmo's [item > name]. Buyer can forever say this was Paul Allen's [item name]. The > providence > > Sorry Joe Schmo, you're items must be sold on Ebay at regular prices. > Provenance is everything on the high-end collectibles market. > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 8:30 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> This lot-group is closed. Sale prices were insane. >> >> >> https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-c= ollection/lots/3726 >> < >> https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-c= ollection/lots/3726 >> > >> >> (In my estimation) a few items went for high but maybe-semi-sensible >> prices, everything else was stratosphere. >> >> ASR-33: 24K$ !! ? !! >> >> --===============1194693864494768113==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Fri Sep 13 01:10:58 2024 From: cctalk@emailtoilet.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 01:10:54 +0000 Message-ID: <172618985478.4006402.1402771324959984846@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0211872416919614598==" --===============0211872416919614598== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Saw a pair of Selectric typewriters went for $8k. Available on eBay for 200-400. --===============0211872416919614598==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 13 01:13:16 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 21:12:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3427216154975442856==" --===============3427216154975442856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/12/2024 8:29 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > This lot-group is closed. Sale prices were insane. >=20 > https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-c= ollection/lots/3726 >=20 > (In my estimation) a few items went for high but maybe-semi-sensible prices= , everything else was stratosphere. >=20 > ASR-33: 24K$ !! ? !! >=20 Well, that really sucks. When I left New York back in 1987 I left an=20 ASR-33 and a Lorenz LO-15 shoved way back in the eaves of the attic in the house I lived in there. bill --===============3427216154975442856==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 01:13:26 2024 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 20:13:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2618822481912734528==" --===============2618822481912734528== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WaIt someone paid 23k for a asr33? On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 8:03=E2=80=AFPM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Oops phone autocorrect..provenance is the correct term. > B > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 9:01 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > > > I wonder if anyone has done a study of high-profile auction sale prices > vs > > apples to apples contemporary sales prices (ebay, etc) of the same item. > > Paul Allen's [item name] will always sell for more that Joe Schmo's [item > > name]. Buyer can forever say this was Paul Allen's [item name]. The > > providence > > > > Sorry Joe Schmo, you're items must be sold on Ebay at regular prices. > > Provenance is everything on the high-end collectibles market. > > > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 8:30 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> This lot-group is closed. Sale prices were insane. > >> > >> > >> > https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-co= llection/lots/3726 > >> < > >> > https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-co= llection/lots/3726 > >> > > >> > >> (In my estimation) a few items went for high but maybe-semi-sensible > >> prices, everything else was stratosphere. > >> > >> ASR-33: 24K$ !! ? !! > >> > >> > --===============2618822481912734528==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 13 01:14:55 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 21:14:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3952333064612136757==" --===============3952333064612136757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/12/2024 9:01 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if anyone has done a study of high-profile auction sale prices vs > apples to apples contemporary sales prices (ebay, etc) of the same item. > Paul Allen's [item name] will always sell for more that Joe Schmo's [item > name]. Buyer can forever say this was Paul Allen's [item name]. The > providence How do you prove it? Kinda like Babe Ruth baseballs. bill --===============3952333064612136757==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 01:29:06 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 21:28:43 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172618985478.4006402.1402771324959984846@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0365052984960419953==" --===============0365052984960419953== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Available at the curb in front of my house for free, with spare ribbons and balls... On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM cctalk--- via cctalk wrote: > Saw a pair of Selectric typewriters went for $8k. Available on eBay for > 200-400. > --===============0365052984960419953==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 13 01:31:24 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 18:31:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8P221MB1469E9EE25DE86280D1B0AA3ED652=40LV8P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1469=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2940065008579010078==" --===============2940065008579010078== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I wonder if anyone has done a study of high-profile auction sale prices vs >> apples to apples contemporary sales prices (ebay, etc) of the same item. >> Paul Allen's [item name] will always sell for more that Joe Schmo's [item >> name]. Buyer can forever say this was Paul Allen's [item name]. The >> providence > On Thu, 12 Sep 2024, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > How do you prove it? Kinda like Babe Ruth baseballs. The closest that you can get is records of the serial number. And statements of experts. A signed statement by Abby Sciuto of his fingerprints on it, and that that was his DNA in the drop of dried blood where previous owner cut themselves on the sharp edge. --===============2940065008579010078==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 02:24:39 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 19:24:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4068941088817165706==" --===============4068941088817165706== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 6:13=E2=80=AFPM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > WaIt someone paid 23k for a asr33? Price Realised USD 23,940 Does that include the 26% buyer's premium, or is that another $6,224 for a total of $30,164 for the ASR33? https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-coll= ection/teletype-asr-33-110/230048 --===============4068941088817165706==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Fri Sep 13 02:43:53 2024 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 19:43:47 -0700 Message-ID: <9AED9A1C-0B2C-4C7C-A8C2-379D5B8F78DE@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5174351280425710184==" --===============5174351280425710184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024Sep 12,, at 7:24 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 6:13=E2=80=AFPM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> WaIt someone paid 23k for a asr33? >=20 > Price Realised USD 23,940 >=20 > Does that include the 26% buyer's premium, or is that another $6,224 for a > total of $30,164 for the ASR33? >=20 > https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-co= llection/teletype-asr-33-110/230048 My understanding from the friend who has been following things more closely, = is that is the hammer+house price. --===============5174351280425710184==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 02:44:58 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 22:44:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0348145086922451233==" --===============0348145086922451233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, but a Christies certificate of authentication is a gold standard. On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:39=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> I wonder if anyone has done a study of high-profile auction sale prices > vs > >> apples to apples contemporary sales prices (ebay, etc) of the same item. > >> Paul Allen's [item name] will always sell for more that Joe Schmo's > [item > >> name]. Buyer can forever say this was Paul Allen's [item name]. The > >> providence > > > On Thu, 12 Sep 2024, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > How do you prove it? Kinda like Babe Ruth baseballs. > > The closest that you can get is records of the serial number. > And statements of experts. > A signed statement by Abby Sciuto of his fingerprints on it, and that that > was his DNA in the drop of dried blood where previous owner cut themselves > on the sharp edge. > --===============0348145086922451233==-- From bobalan@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 13 02:45:33 2024 From: Bob Rosenbloom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 19:45:25 -0700 Message-ID: <1b464884-7af8-446c-93f1-3a56bee2b042@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7961614912942685488==" --===============7961614912942685488== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/12/2024 7:24 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 6:13=E2=80=AFPM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> WaIt someone paid 23k for a asr33? > > > Price Realised USD 23,940 > > Does that include the 26% buyer's premium, or is that another $6,224 for a > total of $30,164 for the ASR33? > > https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-co= llection/teletype-asr-33-110/230048 The "price realized" does include the 26% but not any taxes. Bob --=20 Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org --===============7961614912942685488==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 03:44:46 2024 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 22:44:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9AED9A1C-0B2C-4C7C-A8C2-379D5B8F78DE@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1653025995928087265==" --===============1653025995928087265== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:54=E2=80=AFPM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2024Sep 12,, at 7:24 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 6:13=E2=80=AFPM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> WaIt someone paid 23k for a asr33? > > > > Price Realised USD 23,940 > > > > Does that include the 26% buyer's premium, or is that another $6,224 for > a > > total of $30,164 for the ASR33? > > > > > https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-co= llection/teletype-asr-33-110/230048 > > > > My understanding from the friend who has been following things more > closely, is that is the hammer+house price. > > --===============1653025995928087265==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 03:45:10 2024 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 22:44:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4233329636062578132==" --===============4233329636062578132== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the what? meaning the rich people blowing money price? On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 10:44=E2=80=AFPM Adrian Stoness wrote: > the > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:54=E2=80=AFPM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 2024Sep 12,, at 7:24 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk >> wrote: >> > >> > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 6:13=E2=80=AFPM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < >> > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> >> WaIt someone paid 23k for a asr33? >> > >> > Price Realised USD 23,940 >> > >> > Does that include the 26% buyer's premium, or is that another $6,224 >> for a >> > total of $30,164 for the ASR33? >> > >> > >> https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-c= ollection/teletype-asr-33-110/230048 >> >> >> >> My understanding from the friend who has been following things more >> closely, is that is the hammer+house price. >> >> --===============4233329636062578132==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Sep 13 04:01:24 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 00:01:13 -0400 Message-ID: <614bda35-5b22-4d79-81d9-663b580037c3@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0005798820528281377==" --===============0005798820528281377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This lot-group is closed. Sale prices were insane. Well, to be honest 13k for a KS10 plus a TU78 (interesting, forgot they had 18 bit fiddlers) and an RM05 isn't too bad. $100k for a KA is a bit nuts, and 200k for a KI is like well ok.... But a KS is actually useful. As for the rest..... All I can think is it was really nice of the collector community to essentially donate 3 million worth of irreplaceable stuff to Paul Allen's estate. I mean I know we should just give rich people more money, but this whole experience was..... Sad. CZ --===============0005798820528281377==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 04:50:34 2024 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 23:50:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <614bda35-5b22-4d79-81d9-663b580037c3@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2650129087374805620==" --===============2650129087374805620== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable was reading 16million was raised and going to charity or something?? and that the rest got bought by another museum https://www.geekwire.com/2024/paul-allen-estate-sells-remaining-living-comput= ers-artifacts-and-systems-to-museum-near-atlanta/?fbclid=3DIwY2xjawFQd4pleHRu= A2FlbQIxMQABHZ4m-gu6GjWv35Z7DYzXzTr6N2kKjposlvBibVA928kg1YEsU_JMSN6jNQ_aem_9G= K4dxV5ur5VnqqcGMLm9g On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 11:01=E2=80=AFPM cz via cctalk wrote: > > This lot-group is closed. Sale prices were insane. > > Well, to be honest 13k for a KS10 plus a TU78 (interesting, forgot they > had 18 bit fiddlers) and an RM05 isn't too bad. $100k for a KA is a bit > nuts, and 200k for a KI is like well ok.... But a KS is actually useful. > > As for the rest..... All I can think is it was really nice of the > collector community to essentially donate 3 million worth of > irreplaceable stuff to Paul Allen's estate. I mean I know we should just > give rich people more money, but this whole experience was..... > > Sad. > > CZ > --===============2650129087374805620==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 05:13:31 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 01:13:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7601542989963186491==" --===============7601542989963186491== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 13 Sept 2024 at 00:59, Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > was reading 16million was raised and going to charity or something?? and > that the rest got bought by another museum > > https://www.geekwire.com/2024/paul-allen-estate-sells-remaining-living-comp= uters-artifacts-and-systems-to-museum-near-atlanta/?fbclid=3DIwY2xjawFQd4pleH= RuA2FlbQIxMQABHZ4m-gu6GjWv35Z7DYzXzTr6N2kKjposlvBibVA928kg1YEsU_JMSN6jNQ_aem_= 9GK4dxV5ur5VnqqcGMLm9g > > Yes, the provenance would certainly be attractive to museums, even museums that do not necessarily specialize in technology, and some of those have very deep pockets. I was wondering what percentage of the Christie's auction went to museums rather than private collectors. I suppose only time will tell. -Henry --===============7601542989963186491==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Fri Sep 13 05:14:05 2024 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 05:13:55 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7770928720987387160==" --===============7770928720987387160== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "CuriousMarc" Verdiell visited that museum a bit ago and made a YouTube on c= hannel. Very impressive looking museum... if LCM Stuff has to go somewhere, it looks = like a good location. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DPcNekvIxjTo Quite a drive from Seattle, though.... Mark -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Stoness via cctalk =20 Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2024 9:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Adrian Stoness Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes was reading 16million was raised and going to charity or something?? and that= the rest got bought by another museum https://www.geekwire.com/2024/paul-all= en-estate-sells-remaining-living-computers-artifacts-and-systems-to-museum-ne= ar-atlanta/?fbclid=3DIwY2xjawFQd4pleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHZ4m-gu6GjWv35Z7DYzXzTr6N2= kKjposlvBibVA928kg1YEsU_JMSN6jNQ_aem_9GK4dxV5ur5VnqqcGMLm9g On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 11:01=E2=80=AFPM cz via cctalk wrote: > > This lot-group is closed. Sale prices were insane. > > Well, to be honest 13k for a KS10 plus a TU78 (interesting, forgot=20 > they had 18 bit fiddlers) and an RM05 isn't too bad. $100k for a KA is=20 > a bit nuts, and 200k for a KI is like well ok.... But a KS is actually usef= ul. > > As for the rest..... All I can think is it was really nice of the=20 > collector community to essentially donate 3 million worth of=20 > irreplaceable stuff to Paul Allen's estate. I mean I know we should=20 > just give rich people more money, but this whole experience was..... > > Sad. > > CZ > --===============7770928720987387160==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Fri Sep 13 06:00:59 2024 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] The ultimate nerd fashion accessory Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 23:00:53 -0700 Message-ID: <13B2808F-81D9-430C-9EC6-BC7B6F46D8E8@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4991060293688425212==" --===============4991060293688425212== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://apollo-instruments.com Groan. Spoiler: Wristwatch DSKY --===============4991060293688425212==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 13 06:25:15 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The ultimate nerd fashion accessory Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 00:25:05 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <13B2808F-81D9-430C-9EC6-BC7B6F46D8E8@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2541084731480773190==" --===============2541084731480773190== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-09-13 12:00 a.m., Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > https://apollo-instruments.com > > Groan. > > > Spoiler: Wristwatch DSKY > Nice gimmick after your third or forth LEM.:) --===============2541084731480773190==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Fri Sep 13 06:50:52 2024 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 06:50:46 +0000 Message-ID: <513565712.11101152.1726210246609@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3768847900715652589==" --===============3768847900715652589== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wondering, what will happen with the XDS Sigma 9 and the DECsystem 2020 with = their disk drives...=C2=A0 To my little understanding, the CDC 9766 of the Sigma and the CDC disk pack d= rives of the Sigma were the only large disk pack drives known to be operation= able. I am truly curious if they will be ever operated again. Though this question = applies to all large systems sold during that auction lot.=20 Cheers,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Freitag, 13. September 2024 um 02:30:11 MESZ hat Brent Hilpert via cctalk = Folgendes geschrieben:=20 This lot-group is closed. Sale prices were insane. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computin= g-paul-g-allen-collection/lots/3726 (In my estimation) a few items went for high but maybe-semi-sensible prices, = everything else was stratosphere. ASR-33:=C2=A0 24K$=C2=A0 !! ? !! --===============3768847900715652589==-- From rodsmallwood52@btinternet.com Fri Sep 13 07:53:17 2024 From: Rod Smallwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The ultimate nerd fashion accessory Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 08:47:32 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <13B2808F-81D9-430C-9EC6-BC7B6F46D8E8@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2169561320545115715==" --===============2169561320545115715== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw the moon landing live on TV in '69 Now that is a cool watch - Hell yes man! R On 13/09/2024 07:00, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > https://apollo-instruments.com > > Groan. > > > Spoiler: Wristwatch DSKY > --===============2169561320545115715==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Fri Sep 13 10:03:00 2024 From: cctalk@emailtoilet.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 10:02:56 +0000 Message-ID: <172622177664.4006402.12393430445795974993@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV3PR22MB4439426B281C52FED5772A7AC9652=40LV3PR22MB?= =?utf-8?q?4439=2Enamprd22=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1616076176583541073==" --===============1616076176583541073== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I left CA for NV in 2019 I sold the bulk of my IBM related stuff to the = CMoA. It was a heavy Apple place at the time. My stuff moved Lonnie into the= IBM world. The stuff filled the floor of a 26 ft truck. He paid for shipping= . I then put together a half pallet of stragglers that he arranged for pickup= . I went to the grand opening. He had an archivist that was not an I.T. geek. Did many emails explaining wha= t stuff was. --===============1616076176583541073==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Fri Sep 13 10:23:58 2024 From: cctalk@emailtoilet.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0000 Message-ID: <172622303482.4006402.9911828376186183721@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <172622177664.4006402.12393430445795974993@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4724436703380763117==" --===============4724436703380763117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone is curious as to what the CMoA got from me. http://www.myimagecollection.com/cmoa/ --===============4724436703380763117==-- From maddox@harlie.org Fri Sep 13 11:37:49 2024 From: maddox@harlie.org To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 18:33:16 -0700 Message-ID: <615021d9ccd5c270056c600c1daa7b25@harlie.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8664842703215580404==" --===============8664842703215580404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a dozen of them in my storage unit. Time to buy that Lamborghini ;) On 12.09.2024 18:13, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > WaIt someone paid 23k for a asr33? --===============8664842703215580404==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 13 11:40:02 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 07:39:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7679045573493900680==" --===============7679045573493900680== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/12/2024 9:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> I wonder if anyone has done a study of high-profile auction sale >>> prices vs >>> apples to apples contemporary sales prices (ebay, etc) of the same item. >>> Paul Allen's [item name] will always sell for more that Joe Schmo's >>> [item >>> name].  Buyer can forever say this was Paul Allen's [item name].  The >>> providence >> > On Thu, 12 Sep 2024, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> How do you prove it?  Kinda like Babe Ruth baseballs. > > The closest that you can get is records of the serial number. > And statements of experts. > A signed statement by Abby Sciuto I get a real laugh every time I see statements like this. Back when I was still in the military (around 2005) I had to attend a Navy Security briefing. Everybody got a real kick out of the opening (break the ice) statement that NCIS didn't have a lab at all. All their lab work was done by Army CID at FT. Gillem, GA. bill --===============7679045573493900680==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 13 11:40:59 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 07:40:51 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1809340605478292427==" --===============1809340605478292427== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/12/2024 10:44 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Yes, but a Christies certificate of authentication is a gold standard. > Only that you got it from Christies. bill --===============1809340605478292427==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Fri Sep 13 12:12:02 2024 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:11:54 +0100 Message-ID: <5bc599b0-1758-4a11-8a71-d122ffef1801@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7028856938173062356==" --===============7028856938173062356== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 13/09/2024 05:50, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > was reading 16million was raised and going to charity or something?? and > that the rest got bought by another museum > https://www.geekwire.com/2024/paul-allen-estate-sells-remaining-living-comp= uters-artifacts-and-systems-to-museum-near-atlanta/?fbclid=3DIwY2xjawFQd4pleH= RuA2FlbQIxMQABHZ4m-gu6GjWv35Z7DYzXzTr6N2kKjposlvBibVA928kg1YEsU_JMSN6jNQ_aem_= 9GK4dxV5ur5VnqqcGMLm9g That's a different Roswell, right? It's not like I can pack two visits=20 into one day? :-) Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============7028856938173062356==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Sep 13 12:57:58 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 08:57:46 -0400 Message-ID: <56aee03f-c076-44d0-8211-329bcb4f6d86@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6705336702199274795==" --===============6705336702199274795== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Charity" for this group is an interesting concept. Check into what=20 kinds of "charities" get money from these foundations. That said, oh well. Lessons learned all around from this, least of all=20 that any of us with a hoard is now RICH RICH RICH!!!! WOOHOO!!! C On 9/13/2024 12:50 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > was reading 16million was raised and going to charity or something?? and > that the rest got bought by another museum > https://www.geekwire.com/2024/paul-allen-estate-sells-remaining-living-comp= uters-artifacts-and-systems-to-museum-near-atlanta/?fbclid=3DIwY2xjawFQd4pleH= RuA2FlbQIxMQABHZ4m-gu6GjWv35Z7DYzXzTr6N2kKjposlvBibVA928kg1YEsU_JMSN6jNQ_aem_= 9GK4dxV5ur5VnqqcGMLm9g >=20 > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 11:01=E2=80=AFPM cz via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >>> This lot-group is closed. Sale prices were insane. >> >> Well, to be honest 13k for a KS10 plus a TU78 (interesting, forgot they >> had 18 bit fiddlers) and an RM05 isn't too bad. $100k for a KA is a bit >> nuts, and 200k for a KI is like well ok.... But a KS is actually useful. >> >> As for the rest..... All I can think is it was really nice of the >> collector community to essentially donate 3 million worth of >> irreplaceable stuff to Paul Allen's estate. I mean I know we should just >> give rich people more money, but this whole experience was..... >> >> Sad. >> >> CZ >> --===============6705336702199274795==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 13:56:18 2024 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 08:55:58 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172622303482.4006402.9911828376186183721@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8350958709708131377==" --===============8350958709708131377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable u had one of the nixie tube displays for the evm tape drives? did u get that off that ukrainian fellow? ive got the m4030 panels he had On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 8:29=E2=80=AFAM cctalk--- via cctalk wrote: > If anyone is curious as to what the CMoA got from me. > > http://www.myimagecollection.com/cmoa/ > --===============8350958709708131377==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 13 14:54:30 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 10:54:01 -0400 Message-ID: <2F2ED71D-0560-4F75-8C14-2E8CA44A801B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1342281099687444979==" --===============1342281099687444979== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 13, 2024, at 12:50 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >=20 > was reading 16million was raised and going to charity or something?? and > that the rest got bought by another museum > https://www.geekwire.com/2024/paul-allen-estate-sells-remaining-living-comp= uters-artifacts-and-systems-to-museum-near-atlanta/?fbclid=3DIwY2xjawFQd4pleH= RuA2FlbQIxMQABHZ4m-gu6GjWv35Z7DYzXzTr6N2kKjposlvBibVA928kg1YEsU_JMSN6jNQ_aem_= 9GK4dxV5ur5VnqqcGMLm9g That's likely to be good news. I assume that this is the portion of what was shown at LCM that was actually = LCM property -- things donated to LCM itself. The things sold at auction wer= e Paul Allen property, things he had bought though many of them were exhibite= d at LCM. The difference is that museum property doesn't belong to his estat= e. So this most likely means that LCM collection items like a set of (functional= ) PLATO terminals will go to that other museum. paul --===============1342281099687444979==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Fri Sep 13 15:16:59 2024 From: cctalk@emailtoilet.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 15:16:55 +0000 Message-ID: <172624061543.4006402.9654210643349981402@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4253404689285368302==" --===============4253404689285368302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, my old brain has not retained that information. --===============4253404689285368302==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 15:21:47 2024 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 10:21:30 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172624061543.4006402.9654210643349981402@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0779563137037259282==" --===============0779563137037259282== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable time flys still cool stumbling into one as not allot of the soviet stuff gets seen in NA or in general On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM cctalk--- via cctalk wrote: > Sorry, my old brain has not retained that information. > --===============0779563137037259282==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 13 17:10:43 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 10:10:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8P221MB14697EB9C4E256E8CEF8BBD3ED652=40LV8P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1469=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0286098426276409423==" --===============0286098426276409423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The closest that you can get is records of the serial number. >> And statements of experts. >> A signed statement by Abby Sciuto On Fri, 13 Sep 2024, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I get a real laugh every time I see statements like this. > Back when I was still in the military (around 2005) I had > to attend a Navy Security briefing. Everybody got a real > kick out of the opening (break the ice) statement that NCIS > didn't have a lab at all. All their lab work was done by > Army CID at FT. Gillem, GA. Perhaps it needs to be emoticon captioned for the humor impaired. Abby Sciuto is a fictional forensics epecialist in a fictional show. She does wondrous stuff, such as getting hits of computer facial recognition from reflections from a shiny car fender. --===============0286098426276409423==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 13 17:38:42 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:38:36 -0400 Message-ID: <264D7DA2-2543-43CE-9BF7-2318747A81D5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV3PR22MB4439426B281C52FED5772A7AC9652=40LV3PR22MB?= =?utf-8?q?4439=2Enamprd22=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2882495001752506070==" --===============2882495001752506070== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's curious that the ASR33 went for $24k while the ASR35 "only" fetched $3k.= The 35 is less common as well as far more reliable (and heavier). paul --===============2882495001752506070==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Sep 13 17:40:33 2024 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 12:40:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <264D7DA2-2543-43CE-9BF7-2318747A81D5@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6348873679298178858==" --===============6348873679298178858== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit could be 2 people having a pising contest that have money or did it belong to paul allen or somthing silly On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 12:39 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > It's curious that the ASR33 went for $24k while the ASR35 "only" fetched > $3k. The 35 is less common as well as far more reliable (and heavier). > > paul > > --===============6348873679298178858==-- From chris@groessler.org Fri Sep 13 18:25:19 2024 From: Christian Groessler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for an IF-20 interface for an Brother AX-45 typewriter Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 19:53:25 +0200 Message-ID: <19bd6796-070b-4921-ae7c-86c8a0919db4@groessler.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7292162630667498023==" --===============7292162630667498023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, says it all. I've inherited an AX-45 from my late uncle. Would like to use it with a computer. best regards, chris --===============7292162630667498023==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Sep 14 00:32:28 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 19:32:23 -0500 Message-ID: <5b2c2910-8e3d-5cc4-b279-c8895d9beb30@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <264D7DA2-2543-43CE-9BF7-2318747A81D5@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3070678193410712881==" --===============3070678193410712881== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/13/24 12:38, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > It's curious that the ASR33 went for $24k while the ASR35 "only" fetched $3= k. The 35 is less common as well as far more reliable (and heavier). Yes, I spotted that too!=C2=A0 I think the 35 is also quieter=20 than a 33.=C2=A0 The 33 is supposed to survive for 2 weeks if=20 left on continuously.=C2=A0 Then, it can be rebuilt for another 2=20 weeks, and then it is totally worn out. Jon --===============3070678193410712881==-- From classiccmp@earthlink.net Sat Sep 14 01:46:16 2024 From: "David C. Jenner" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 18:41:09 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7455335452571401503==" --===============7455335452571401503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This was from the 360/91 at UCLA when I was there in the 1970s. I recall seeing them working on refurbishing it when I was last at the LCM a few years ago. On 9/10/24 4:50 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 10 Sep 2024, Paul Koning wrote: >> And perhaps craziest of all, $189k for a 360/91 console display.  Just >> the lights panel, nothing more. > > Well, that might be all thatthe interior decorators wanted, for hanging > on the wall --===============7455335452571401503==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Sep 14 02:43:09 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 19:43:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7007745641837802305==" --===============7007745641837802305== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> And perhaps craziest of all, $189k for a 360/91 console display.=C2=A0 Ju= st=20 >>> the lights panel, nothing more. >> Well, that might be all thatthe interior decorators wanted, for hanging on= =20 >> the wall On Fri, 13 Sep 2024, David C. Jenner wrote: > This was from the 360/91 at UCLA when I was there in the 1970s. I recall=20 > seeing them working on refurbishing it when I was last at the LCM a few yea= rs=20 > ago. If the machine was being refurbished, why was the console display=20 separated from the machine? --===============7007745641837802305==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Sat Sep 14 03:21:22 2024 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2024 03:21:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6578477386986242832==" --===============6578477386986242832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think David meant He saw them working on refurbishing the panel itself. LC= M Staff designed and Built the circuitry to generate the pseudo blinkenlights effect, along with c= onverting to LEDs. As I recall, the Panel was the only thing left of the original 360/91. I do remember Paul Alle= n had spent a lot of time looking For a restorable 360, ending up with mostly bad tips. Flew a Guy to a storage= building in Australia, only to Discover in person....nope. An article mentioned that, since 360s were pretty= much leased machines, they Returned to IBM for summary execution..... The LCM was working on rebuilding a 360/30 they did locate, a considerably s= maller entry level 360. When I last saw it they had considerable power supply rebuilding to accomplis= h. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin via cctalk =20 Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 7:43 PM To: David C. Jenner Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; Fred Cisin Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes >>> And perhaps craziest of all, $189k for a 360/91 console display.=C2=A0=20 >>> Just the lights panel, nothing more. >> Well, that might be all thatthe interior decorators wanted, for=20 >> hanging on the wall On Fri, 13 Sep 2024, David C. Jenner wrote: > This was from the 360/91 at UCLA when I was there in the 1970s. I=20 > recall seeing them working on refurbishing it when I was last at the=20 > LCM a few years ago. If the machine was being refurbished, why was the console display separated f= rom the machine? --===============6578477386986242832==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Sep 14 13:58:53 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2024 08:58:47 -0500 Message-ID: <008edae5-dfce-d559-f1de-518a85a27edb@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV3PR22MB443987D79DCA733852A7D3DEC9662=40LV3PR22MB?= =?utf-8?q?4439=2Enamprd22=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7009535684473447190==" --===============7009535684473447190== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/13/24 22:21, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote: > I think David meant He saw them working on refurbishing the panel itself. = LCM Staff designed and > Built the circuitry to generate the pseudo blinkenlights effect, along with= converting to LEDs. As I recall, the > Panel was the only thing left of the original 360/91. I do remember Paul Al= len had spent a lot of time looking > For a restorable 360, ending up with mostly bad tips. Flew a Guy to a stora= ge building in Australia, only to > Discover in person....nope. An article mentioned that, since 360s were pret= ty much leased machines, they > Returned to IBM for summary execution..... > Well, actually, the FAA's National Airspace System=20 commandeered all SLT cards from retired 360's to keep the=20 9020D and 9020E computers running.=C2=A0 These were slightly=20 modified 360/50 and 360/65 processors, with small additions=20 to the microcode and different front panels.=C2=A0 There were=20 lots of owned 360's in the 1980's. Jon --===============7009535684473447190==-- From djenner@earthlink.net Sun Sep 15 08:15:37 2024 From: "David C. Jenner" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2024 22:22:47 -0700 Message-ID: <905de0fd-5b92-447a-b11d-928fdfbe0114@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV3PR22MB443987D79DCA733852A7D3DEC9662=40LV3PR22MB?= =?utf-8?q?4439=2Enamprd22=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0438549936590942767==" --===============0438549936590942767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, LCM had just the console. I left UCLA and moved to CDC land at=20 UW-Seattle in '78. I don't know what happened to, or replaced, the 360/91. The main machine room at LCM was impressive. At one time I had used all=20 the (types of) machines in it. Dave On 9/13/24 8:21 PM, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote: > I think David meant He saw them working on refurbishing the panel itself. = LCM Staff designed and > Built the circuitry to generate the pseudo blinkenlights effect, along with= converting to LEDs. As I recall, the > Panel was the only thing left of the original 360/91. I do remember Paul Al= len had spent a lot of time looking > For a restorable 360, ending up with mostly bad tips. Flew a Guy to a stora= ge building in Australia, only to > Discover in person....nope. An article mentioned that, since 360s were pret= ty much leased machines, they > Returned to IBM for summary execution..... >=20 > The LCM was working on rebuilding a 360/30 they did locate, a considerably= smaller entry level 360. > When I last saw it they had considerable power supply rebuilding to accompl= ish. >=20 > Mark >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 7:43 PM > To: David C. Jenner > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; Fred Cisin > Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes >=20 >>>> And perhaps craziest of all, $189k for a 360/91 console display. >>>> Just the lights panel, nothing more. >>> Well, that might be all thatthe interior decorators wanted, for >>> hanging on the wall >=20 > On Fri, 13 Sep 2024, David C. Jenner wrote: >> This was from the 360/91 at UCLA when I was there in the 1970s. I >> recall seeing them working on refurbishing it when I was last at the >> LCM a few years ago. >=20 > If the machine was being refurbished, why was the console display separated= from the machine? --===============0438549936590942767==-- From spam@hell.org Sun Sep 15 15:01:31 2024 From: Mike Begley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2024 15:01:23 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <905de0fd-5b92-447a-b11d-928fdfbe0114@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1264057666558088206==" --===============1264057666558088206== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I loved the machine room in the LCM. It was my favorite place in the museum. I had been a student operator of the machine room at my university in the lat= e 80s. When I first walked into the LCM machine room I was instantly transpo= rted back. The sound, the all-surrounding light level from the bright fluore= scent lights reflected off the raised floor tiles, and most surreally - the s= mell. All the ozone coming off the machines gave the air a distinct, slightl= y sour but not unpleasant aroma that I have only experienced in a proper mach= ine room. It was a collection of sensations I had all but forgotten. Also, the machine room was where I encountered my first AT&T 5620 terminal ou= tside my own and a couple that some friends picked up from our university sur= plus. I was absolutely giddy about that - demonstrating to largely disintere= sted friends show COOL that terminal was, that it was that it had multiple te= rminals windows...multiplexed through a single 9600 baud serial port! Friend= s who had grown up on windows and macs didn't see how incredible and groundbr= eaking that particular device was when it was released. Well...maybe I my ex= citement I conveyed a little bit of that... =F0=9F=98=8A It's a shame there really aren't any places like that. Seeing a CDC6500 powe= red off and behind a velvet rope just isn't the same as seeing it on and oper= ating, in its natural environment, surrounded by a collection of its equally = impressive peers and tended by volunteers happy to answer questions. -mike -----Original Message----- From: David C. Jenner via cctalk =20 Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 10:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: David C. Jenner Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Yes, LCM had just the console. I left UCLA and moved to CDC land at UW-Seatt= le in '78. I don't know what happened to, or replaced, the 360/91. The main machine room at LCM was impressive. At one time I had used all the = (types of) machines in it. Dave On 9/13/24 8:21 PM, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote: > I think David meant He saw them working on refurbishing the panel=20 > itself. LCM Staff designed and Built the circuitry to generate the=20 > pseudo blinkenlights effect, along with converting to LEDs. As I=20 > recall, the Panel was the only thing left of the original 360/91. I do=20 > remember Paul Allen had spent a lot of time looking For a restorable=20 > 360, ending up with mostly bad tips. Flew a Guy to a storage building in Au= stralia, only to Discover in person....nope. An article mentioned that, since= 360s were pretty much leased machines, they Returned to IBM for summary exec= ution..... >=20 > The LCM was working on rebuilding a 360/30 they did locate, a considerably= smaller entry level 360. > When I last saw it they had considerable power supply rebuilding to accompl= ish. >=20 > Mark >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 7:43 PM > To: David C. Jenner > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts=20 > ; Fred Cisin > Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes >=20 >>>> And perhaps craziest of all, $189k for a 360/91 console display. >>>> Just the lights panel, nothing more. >>> Well, that might be all thatthe interior decorators wanted, for=20 >>> hanging on the wall >=20 > On Fri, 13 Sep 2024, David C. Jenner wrote: >> This was from the 360/91 at UCLA when I was there in the 1970s. I=20 >> recall seeing them working on refurbishing it when I was last at the=20 >> LCM a few years ago. >=20 > If the machine was being refurbished, why was the console display separated= from the machine? --===============1264057666558088206==-- From athornton@gmail.com Sun Sep 15 15:26:42 2024 From: Adam Thornton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] The CMoaA is OK Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2024 08:26:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172624680879.2847341.14314422095875938162@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3365540309741846797==" --===============3365540309741846797== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > was reading 16million was raised and going to charity or something?? and > > that the rest got bought by another museum > > > > > https://www.geekwire.com/2024/paul-allen-estate-sells-remaining-living-comp= uters-artifacts-and-systems-to-museum-near-atlanta/?fbclid=3DIwY2xjawFQd4pleH= RuA2FlbQIxMQABHZ4m-gu6GjWv35Z7DYzXzTr6N2kKjposlvBibVA928kg1YEsU_JMSN6jNQ_aem_= 9GK4dxV5ur5VnqqcGMLm9g > > Oh, it's the CMoA? That's actually really really good news. The last time I was in Atlanta, before my parents moved out here (so...2019?), I had a couple hours to kill on my way to visit a high school friend. So I went there, wandered around, and left their Atari on the Easter Egg screen in Adventure. One of the staff noticed that, talked to me for a bit, and asked me to wait while he phoned up Lonnie Mimms (the founder) and asked him to come in and meet me. We talked for a good hour, and it was great. I would describe what he's done there as what I would have liked to have done if I had come from a family business of real-estate-developer money, rather than (not that I'm complaining) IT consultant/sysadmin/software-developer money. The CMoA was not as hands-on as LCM, but it did have some working machines you could play with. Whatever Lonnie got his hands on from the LCM is unlikely to be sold for the metal value. Five years ago, anyway, he seemed serious and his restoration work looked pretty legit. Adam --===============3365540309741846797==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Sun Sep 15 17:11:38 2024 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The CMoaA is OK Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2024 10:10:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5397697327500393603==" --===============5397697327500393603== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Computer Museum of America Acquires Collection from Living Computers Museum and Estate of Paul G. Allen - Computer Museum of America % On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 8:26=E2=80=AFAM Adam Thornton via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > was reading 16million was raised and going to charity or something?? > and > > > that the rest got bought by another museum > > > > > > > > > https://www.geekwire.com/2024/paul-allen-estate-sells-remaining-living-comp= uters-artifacts-and-systems-to-museum-near-atlanta/?fbclid=3DIwY2xjawFQd4pleH= RuA2FlbQIxMQABHZ4m-gu6GjWv35Z7DYzXzTr6N2kKjposlvBibVA928kg1YEsU_JMSN6jNQ_aem_= 9GK4dxV5ur5VnqqcGMLm9g > > > > Oh, it's the CMoA? That's actually really really good news. > > The last time I was in Atlanta, before my parents moved out here > (so...2019?), I had a couple hours to kill on my way to visit a high school > friend. So I went there, wandered around, and left their Atari on the > Easter Egg screen in Adventure. > > One of the staff noticed that, talked to me for a bit, and asked me to wait > while he phoned up Lonnie Mimms (the founder) and asked him to come in and > meet me. We talked for a good hour, and it was great. I would describe > what he's done there as what I would have liked to have done if I had come > from a family business of real-estate-developer money, rather than (not > that I'm complaining) IT consultant/sysadmin/software-developer money. > The CMoA was not as hands-on as LCM, but it did have some working machines > you could play with. > > Whatever Lonnie got his hands on from the LCM is unlikely to be sold for > the metal value. Five years ago, anyway, he seemed serious and his > restoration work looked pretty legit. > > Adam > --=20 Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============5397697327500393603==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Sun Sep 15 20:06:48 2024 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The CMoaA is OK Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2024 13:00:09 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2835194890112234267==" --===============2835194890112234267== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sep 15, 2024, at 10:10 AM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Computer Museum of America Acquires Collection from Living Computers Museum > and Estate of Paul G. Allen - Computer Museum of America % > Hopefully this means that they get the =E2=80=9Cpaper assets=E2=80=9D, and ar= e willing to scan them. There is stuff that regrettably went to LCM, that sh= ould have been scanned. Zane --===============2835194890112234267==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Mon Sep 16 07:31:00 2024 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The CMoaA is OK Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 07:30:52 +0000 Message-ID: <197083196.12432212.1726471852959@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4773060674834613711==" --===============4773060674834613711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Hopefully this means that they get the =E2=80=9Cpaper assets=E2=80=9D, and a= re willing to scan them.=C2=A0 There is stuff that regrettably went to LCM, t= hat should have >been scanned. > >Zane What kind of paper assets are we talking about? *curious* Cheers,=20 Pierre --===============4773060674834613711==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Sep 16 09:43:40 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The CMoaA is OK Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 11:43:28 +0200 Message-ID: <359e157a-3070-dce2-f536-14804dc30e9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1592422327660874853==" --===============1592422327660874853== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 15 Sep 2024, Lee Courtney wrote: > Computer Museum of America Acquires Collection from Living Computers Museum > and Estate of Paul G. Allen - Computer Museum of America % > Is that a different Computer Museum of America that that from San Diego? At least the concept is very different. I only see bla bla and artifacts=20 under covers. That is not how a computer museum should present history.=20 The machines must be running and demonstrated. Christian --===============1592422327660874853==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Sep 16 14:43:34 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The CMoaA is OK Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 10:43:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <197083196.12432212.1726471852959@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3861452601853007838==" --===============3861452601853007838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 16, 2024, at 3:30 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> Hopefully this means that they get the =E2=80=9Cpaper assets=E2=80=9D, and= are willing to scan them. There is stuff that regrettably went to LCM, that= should have >been scanned. >>=20 >> Zane >=20 > What kind of paper assets are we talking about? *curious* >=20 > Cheers,=20 > Pierre Whatever documentation came with object donated to LCM. And any documents th= at were donated to LCM separately (as opposed to alongside some object). For example, LCM has a number of PLATO terminals, and I suspect there were do= cuments accompanying them. Some of those may be things that have not been ma= de public elsewhere. paul --===============3861452601853007838==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Sep 16 14:46:45 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The CMoaA is OK Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 10:46:16 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <359e157a-3070-dce2-f536-14804dc30e9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6321142324092737066==" --===============6321142324092737066== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 16, 2024, at 5:43 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Sun, 15 Sep 2024, Lee Courtney wrote: >> Computer Museum of America Acquires Collection from Living Computers Museum >> and Estate of Paul G. Allen - Computer Museum of America % >> >=20 > Is that a different Computer Museum of America that that from San Diego? > At least the concept is very different. I only see bla bla and artifacts un= der covers. That is not how a computer museum should present history. The mac= hines must be running and demonstrated. >=20 > Christian Not necessarily. There's value in preserving objects even if they are not in= runnable condition. Yes, having runnable system as LCM set out to do is int= eresting. It may also involve compromises, such as replacing failed original= modules by replacements that are very different. You can see this at work i= n the LCM CDC 6500, where a number of the 4k x 12 core memory modules were re= placed by SRAM based replacements. They are easy to spot in the photos. The= y would probably operate differently too -- SRAM doesn't change to zero when = read, and that actually creates a user-visible difference in the case of PP m= emory. paul --===============6321142324092737066==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Wed Sep 18 02:35:40 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Microsoft & Apple Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 22:35:23 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3653928775589589170==" --===============3653928775589589170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I see the error of my ways...I'm not sure to what effect me not spreading this lie will have on the grand world out there. Apologies though is warranted. Murray =F0=9F=99=82 On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 at 9:19=E2=80=AFAM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 4 Sept 2024 at 15:28, Murray McCullough via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I had not realized it was 27 yrs. ago that Microsoft =E2=80=98gave=E2=80= =99 Apple > $150-$200 > > million. It was done to keep Microsoft safe from regulators - for its > > monopoly practices. > > No, it was not. > > This is an oft-repeated lie. > > It was an out of court settlement because Video for Windows contained > code stolen from Apple Quicktime. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Canyon_Company > > It has been known and reported for years: > > > https://www.zdnet.com/article/stop-the-lies-the-day-that-microsoft-saved-ap= ple/ > > It was not an investment. That was a lie spread by the marketing > lizards. Please don't repeat it or spread it. It is not true and never > was. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > --===============3653928775589589170==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Sep 18 14:54:06 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 07:54:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <359e157a-3070-dce2-f536-14804dc30e9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0521814041848221489==" --===============0521814041848221489== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Electronics Goldmine has them for $19.95 https://theelectronicgoldmine.com/products/g28288 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0521814041848221489==-- From jrr@flippers.com Wed Sep 18 17:20:17 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 10:12:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1069258374823004647==" --===============1069258374823004647== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-09-18 7:54 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Electronics Goldmine has them for $19.95 > > https://theelectronicgoldmine.com/products/g28288 > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com Unicorn isn't much better: www.unicornelectronics.com 80000 <#> 🔗 https://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/80000.html  John :-#(# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============1069258374823004647==-- From commodorejohn@gmail.com Wed Sep 18 17:53:52 2024 From: John To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 10:53:40 -0700 Message-ID: <20240918105340.00000a31@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <172667881013.2847341.3190097316903501298@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2824231242258572732==" --===============2824231242258572732== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunno, what does a box of Cracker Jack cost these days...? --===============2824231242258572732==-- From cctalk@emailtoilet.com Wed Sep 18 18:01:02 2024 From: Donald Whittemore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 18:00:58 +0000 Message-ID: <172668245845.4006402.15490642715321040411@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <20240918105340.00000a31@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3672542711715018078==" --===============3672542711715018078== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 12 boxes for $15 on Amazon. --===============3672542711715018078==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Sep 18 18:30:00 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 11:29:55 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240918105340.00000a31@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1398410863932783271==" --===============1398410863932783271== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 18 Sep 2024, John via cctalk wrote: > Dunno, what does a box of Cracker Jack cost these days...? I checked; Amazon has Cracker Jack THREE boxes for $4.53 That's sold by a third party, but fulfilled by Amazon. I've been told that the current prizes are stickers to unlock games on their website. They haven't had microprocessors as prizes in a long time. The switch to games saved money, and protected them from liability lawsuits for choking on a prize (an 80286 might do some damage if swallowed) So far, Arduinos are still more expensive than stickers. But, keep waiting. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1398410863932783271==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 18 19:31:43 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 13:31:36 -0600 Message-ID: <05b9542c-7213-4829-97d1-d59c752c6f13@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6484750159598401050==" --===============6484750159598401050== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-09-18 12:29 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 18 Sep 2024, John via cctalk wrote: > >> Dunno, what does a box of Cracker Jack cost these days...? > > I checked; Amazon has Cracker Jack THREE boxes for $4.53 > That's sold by a third party, but fulfilled by Amazon. > > I've been told that the current prizes are stickers to unlock games on > their website. > > They haven't had microprocessors as prizes in a long time. > The switch to games saved money, and protected them from liability > lawsuits for choking on a prize (an 80286 might do some damage if > swallowed) > > So far, Arduinos are still more expensive than stickers.  But, keep > waiting. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com The price is 25 cents, or $2,500 when you need one. I was more a lucky elephant person. Ben. --===============6484750159598401050==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Wed Sep 18 19:52:19 2024 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Microsoft & Apple Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 12:14:39 -0700 Message-ID: <0857A512-0B92-4C07-A8B1-C238F46676BA@eschatologist.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7901064415437229964==" --===============7901064415437229964== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sep 9, 2024, at 6:08=E2=80=AFAM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > It was not an investment. That was a lie spread by the marketing > lizards. Please don't repeat it or spread it. It is not true and never > was. This is also not true=E2=80=94Microsoft received some amount of restricted (n= on-voting) stock in Apple at the same time, so it was an investment *as well*= as being a settlement of all pending litigation. The investment paid off substantially for Microsoft as well. =E2=80=94 Chris --===============7901064415437229964==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Sep 18 21:37:17 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 16:29:00 -0500 Message-ID: <357346329.655064.1726694940693@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5133797690183454881==" --===============5133797690183454881== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable no long ago, dollar tree had 3 boxes for $1.25. 
--Carey
> On 09/18/2024 1:29 PM CDT Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =20 > On Wed, 18 Sep 2024, John via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > Dunno, what does a box of Cracker Jack cost these days...? >=20 > I checked; Amazon has Cracker Jack THREE boxes for $4.53 > That's sold by a third party, but fulfilled by Amazon. >=20 > I've been told that the current prizes are stickers to unlock games on=20 > their website. >=20 > They haven't had microprocessors as prizes in a long time. > The switch to games saved money, and protected them from liability=20 > lawsuits for choking on a prize (an 80286 might do some damage if swallowed) >=20 > So far, Arduinos are still more expensive than stickers. But, keep=20 > waiting. >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5133797690183454881==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Sep 18 21:42:30 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 16:34:15 -0500 Message-ID: <1892330850.655225.1726695255850@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8123296628170746595==" --===============8123296628170746595== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable if I don't have a computer with one in it in my basement, it's because I rece= ntly took it in for recycling. should I not do that any more? I have some 8= 086 and probably 80386 machines. probably sx and dx, and maybe one with a nu= merical coprocessor. 
--Carey
--===============8123296628170746595==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Sep 19 04:21:42 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 21:20:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1892330850.655225.1726695255850@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1308187789203129359==" --===============1308187789203129359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Sep 18, 2024 at 2:42 PM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > if I don't have a computer with one in it in my basement, it's because I > recently took it in for recycling. should I not do that any more? I have > some 8086 and probably 80386 machines. probably sx and dx, and maybe one > with a numerical coprocessor. > > 
--Carey
> Yes, believe it or not people actually want that stuff now. Offer it up to the list or take it to one of the VCFs and put it on the free pile. Sellam --===============1308187789203129359==-- From doc@vaxen.net Thu Sep 19 20:51:21 2024 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2024 15:43:01 -0500 Message-ID: <2edf7470-58ed-47fa-a630-333c9ce31ef9@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: <1892330850.655225.1726695255850@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1162811592509455142==" --===============1162811592509455142== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/18/24 16:34, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > if I don't have a computer with one in it in my basement, it's because I re= cently took it in for recycling. should I not do that any more? I have some= 8086 and probably 80386 machines. probably sx and dx, and maybe one with a = numerical coprocessor. >=20 > 
--Carey
You should see what a DIP 8250-compatible UART costs... Doc --===============1162811592509455142==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Fri Sep 20 09:35:58 2024 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 10:35:52 +0100 Message-ID: <046801db0b40$7c214810$7463d830$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5b2c2910-8e3d-5cc4-b279-c8895d9beb30@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6513501297243712685==" --===============6513501297243712685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Elson via cctalk > Sent: 14 September 2024 01:32 > To: Paul Koning via cctalk > Cc: Jon Elson > Subject: [cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes >=20 > On 9/13/24 12:38, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > It's curious that the ASR33 went for $24k while the ASR35 "only" fetched = $3k. > The 35 is less common as well as far more reliable (and heavier). Much bigger, not what was generally used, does not bring back memories. Bit s= urprised it fetched that much,, >=20 > Yes, I spotted that too! I think the 35 is also quieter than a 33. The 33= is > supposed to survive for 2 weeks if left on continuously. Then, it can be r= ebuilt > for another 2 weeks, and then it is totally worn out. That sounds like the biggest load of twaddle I have ever heard. When I was at= Uni we had ASR33s that were in solid use and I don't ever remember them ever= being out of order. Like all mechanical kit they do need regular lubrication, but then so did IBM= 2741 golf ball typewriter.... .. If you look here for example https://robs-old-computers.com/projects/mu5/mu5-pictures/ and scroll down there is an ASR33 as the console of MU5, one of Manchester Un= iversities Experimental Computers. This thing ran 24 hours a day..=20 >=20 > Jon Dave --===============6513501297243712685==-- From uban@ubanproductions.com Sat Sep 21 19:21:37 2024 From: Tom Uban To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] SCSI2SD v5.0a problems Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2024 14:21:29 -0500 Message-ID: <8124e08a-2f14-4073-9bbe-4bd475ef8900@ubanproductions.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8512831810500723208==" --===============8512831810500723208== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am trying to use a SCSI2SD v5.0a SCSI to microSD adapter card, but it does = not seem to work properly. When I run the scsi2sd-util on either mac or linux, it sees my board over USB= , but it is unable to=20 save changed options to the device. I am using a PnY 16GB microSD card. I've also tried a 32GB card. I've also tr= ied a different USB cable. I have two of these boards and they both behave the same. Does anyone have any experience with these? --tnx --tom --===============8512831810500723208==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Sat Sep 21 19:44:08 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCSI2SD v5.0a problems Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2024 15:43:49 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8124e08a-2f14-4073-9bbe-4bd475ef8900@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0239589452479223611==" --===============0239589452479223611== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 21 Sept 2024 at 15:39, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I am trying to use a SCSI2SD v5.0a SCSI to microSD adapter card, but it > does not seem to work properly. > When I run the scsi2sd-util on either mac or linux, it sees my board over > USB, but it is unable to > save changed options to the device. > I am using a PnY 16GB microSD card. I've also tried a 32GB card. I've also > tried a different USB cable. > I have two of these boards and they both behave the same. > Does anyone have any experience with these? > > --tnx > --tom > I have and have used a SCSI2SD v5, and I've always had great success contacting the manufacturer directly when I had issues. Is there a reason that you cannot or have not done that? -Henry --===============0239589452479223611==-- From uban@ubanproductions.com Sun Sep 22 14:58:43 2024 From: Tom Uban To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCSI2SD v5.0a problems Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2024 09:58:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8269089983281042083==" --===============8269089983281042083== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/21/24 14:43, Henry Bent wrote: > On Sat, 21 Sept 2024 at 15:39, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > > I am trying to use a SCSI2SD v5.0a SCSI to microSD adapter card, but it= does not seem to work > properly. > When I run the scsi2sd-util on either mac or linux, it sees my board ov= er USB, but it is > unable to > save changed options to the device. > I am using a PnY 16GB microSD card. I've also tried a 32GB card. I've a= lso tried a different > USB cable. > I have two of these boards and they both behave the same. > Does anyone have any experience with these? > > --tnx > --tom > > > > I have and have used a SCSI2SD v5, and I've always had great success contac= ting the manufacturer=20 > directly when I had issues.=C2=A0 Is there a reason that you cannot or have= not done that? > > -Henry Once I located the correct firmware update and installed it, everything worke= d fine. --===============8269089983281042083==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon Sep 23 09:19:07 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 10:15:02 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <66f13156.050a0220.750fa.b4e9.GMR@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5736225872449772890==" --===============5736225872449772890== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there are program available that will take an image of a CP/M disk in .IMD format (say) and let me view the directory, extract or add files and so on? If so, what is recommended and where can I get it? -tony --===============5736225872449772890==-- From tingox@gmail.com Mon Sep 23 11:45:09 2024 From: Torfinn Ingolfsen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 13:44:51 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6075681479081119328==" --===============6075681479081119328== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cpmtools? (it works on raw images) https://github.com/lipro-cpm4l/cpmtools http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/ On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 11:19 AM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > Is there are program available that will take an image of a CP/M disk > in .IMD format (say) and let me view the directory, extract or add > files and so on? > > If so, what is recommended and where can I get it? > > -tony -- mvh Torfinn --===============6075681479081119328==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Mon Sep 23 13:59:37 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 15:22:59 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2edf7470-58ed-47fa-a630-333c9ce31ef9@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0720881904153060041==" --===============0720881904153060041== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 03:43:01PM -0500, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: [...] > You should see what a DIP 8250-compatible UART costs... The venerable 16550 is an 8250-compatible, so that would be $4.47 from Digikey, plus another couple of bucks for a PLCC-to-DIP adaptor from wherever. DIP versions are also available at a similar price, but from less-reliable sources. I haven't put the two datasheets side-by-side to check, but if the 16550 isn't actually directly pin-compatible with the 8250 (which I expect it probably is) then it'll certainly be close enough that a few bodge wires on that adaptor board will be all that's needed. We're not trying to install a Threadripper into a 286 socket or anything like that. --===============0720881904153060041==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Mon Sep 23 15:13:24 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 08:13:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4167122719062754907==" --===============4167122719062754907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 23, 2024, 2:19=E2=80=AFAM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > Is there are program available that will take an image of a CP/M disk > in .IMD format (say) and let me view the directory, extract or add > files and so on? > > If so, what is recommended and where can I get it? > > -tony > This is what I have used in the past: https://www.cpm8680.com/cpmtools/ I might not say it is the recommended set of tools only because those are Win32 executables, which may cause some people to blow a gasket. If I had an .IMD image, I would first use the ImageDisk tools to covert the image to a plain binary sector image. --===============4167122719062754907==-- From doc@vaxen.net Mon Sep 23 15:54:31 2024 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 10:54:21 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5211653682738597860==" --===============5211653682738597860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/23/24 08:22, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 03:43:01PM -0500, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> You should see what a DIP 8250-compatible UART costs... > > The venerable 16550 is an 8250-compatible, so that would be $4.47 from > Digikey, plus another couple of bucks for a PLCC-to-DIP adaptor from > wherever. DIP versions are also available at a similar price, but from > less-reliable sources. Oh, I know, and have a bag of PLCC 16550s from other projects. I did want to keep this board - an Alloy PC-SLAVE/16 - period correct. I probably will not. Doc --===============5211653682738597860==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 23 15:59:44 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What's the going rate for 80286? Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 09:59:35 -0600 Message-ID: <638006cc-7ee6-4f2a-b3ca-7707511b77c4@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8585183367774587893==" --===============8585183367774587893== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-09-23 7:22 a.m., Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 03:43:01PM -0500, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> You should see what a DIP 8250-compatible UART costs... > > The venerable 16550 is an 8250-compatible, so that would be $4.47 from > Digikey, plus another couple of bucks for a PLCC-to-DIP adaptor from > wherever. DIP versions are also available at a similar price, but from > less-reliable sources. > > I haven't put the two datasheets side-by-side to check, but if the 16550 > isn't actually directly pin-compatible with the 8250 (which I expect it > probably is) then it'll certainly be close enough that a few bodge wires on > that adaptor board will be all that's needed. We're not trying to install a > Threadripper into a 286 socket or anything like that. > But the real question on what uarts does the fifo work? --===============8585183367774587893==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Tue Sep 24 06:16:57 2024 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Siemens 4004 mainframe pictures on bitsavers Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 06:16:46 +0000 Message-ID: <544204310.17595433.1727158606377@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <544204310.17595433.1727158606377.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2562853224233786982==" --===============2562853224233786982== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello list,=20 out of curiosity: Does anybody know where the two pictures of the Siemens 400= 4 CPU uploaded on=20 http://bitsavers.org/pdf/siemens/4004/Model_15/pictures/ where taken? Are these from the unit being part of the SAP collection at CHM?= =C2=A0 Cheers,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============2562853224233786982==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 24 06:53:24 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Siemens 4004 mainframe pictures on bitsavers Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 08:53:14 +0200 Message-ID: <2692462c-a827-5cca-ba4a-62db73b5801c@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <544204310.17595433.1727158606377@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3417690389731819945==" --===============3417690389731819945== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, P Gebhardt wrote: > out of curiosity: Does anybody know where the two pictures of the Siemens 4= 004 CPU uploaded on > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/siemens/4004/Model_15/pictures/ > where taken? Are these from the unit being part of the SAP collection at=20 > CHM?=C2=A0 No, thanksfully this machine is still in Germany. It is nor far from me=20 BTW ;-) I know where it came from and who has it now. It is complete=20 with peripherals (storage, card reader, console, printer) and=20 hopefully, will be running soon again :-) Christian --===============3417690389731819945==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Sep 24 07:29:23 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CPM Disk Image Tools (was Re: Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 08:29:13 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6330553680718259834==" --===============6330553680718259834== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Corrected the Subject: line... On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 4:13=E2=80=AFPM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2024, 2:19=E2=80=AFAM Tony Duell via cctalk > wrote: > > > Is there are program available that will take an image of a CP/M disk > > in .IMD format (say) and let me view the directory, extract or add > > files and so on? > > > > If so, what is recommended and where can I get it? > > > > -tony > > > > This is what I have used in the past: > > https://www.cpm8680.com/cpmtools/ > > I might not say it is the recommended set of tools only because those > are Win32 executables, which may cause some people to blow a gasket. Thanks. That seems to do what I need. And the computer I am handling the disk images on does actually run Windows (don't panic, I've got plenty of classic computers running nicer OSes) > > If I had an .IMD image, I would first use the ImageDisk tools to covert the > image to a plain binary sector image. I've used the Greaseweazle software (now there's a bit of documentation for it!) to turn .imd into .dsk. Pity I have to go through another step, but then file formats are like standards. Everybody should have their own... -tony --===============6330553680718259834==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Sep 24 13:35:45 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Siemens 4004 mainframe pictures on bitsavers Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 09:35:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <544204310.17595433.1727158606377@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0762242700913703533==" --===============0762242700913703533== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 24, 2024, at 2:16 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hello list,=20 >=20 > out of curiosity: Does anybody know where the two pictures of the Siemens 4= 004 CPU uploaded on=20 > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/siemens/4004/Model_15/pictures/ >=20 > where taken? Are these from the unit being part of the SAP collection at CH= M?=20 >=20 > Cheers,=20 > Pierre I once ran into a Siemens computer used to control a Contraves precision draw= ing machine. I found recently that those were mainly used for drawing master= plots for printed maps. I remember nothing about it except that it used hex= digits 0-9, where 9 could also be written as A, and then B to G for the digi= ts representing 10 to 15. Does that ring any bells? paul --===============0762242700913703533==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Tue Sep 24 13:50:42 2024 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Siemens 4004 mainframe pictures on bitsavers Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 21:03:30 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <544204310.17595433.1727158606377@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5813221754296923520==" --===============5813221754296923520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable it was being talked about on one of the discords voice chats the other day. the guy is looking for manuals for it so if u got them upload them On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:17=E2=80=AFAM P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Hello list, > > out of curiosity: Does anybody know where the two pictures of the Siemens > 4004 CPU uploaded on > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/siemens/4004/Model_15/pictures/ > > where taken? Are these from the unit being part of the SAP collection at > CHM? > > Cheers, > Pierre > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de > --===============5813221754296923520==-- From john@jfloren.net Wed Sep 25 00:10:05 2024 From: John Floren To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Free computing books, SF bay area Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 16:59:33 -0700 Message-ID: <87seto61rs.fsf@thufir.floren.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6807968390331311295==" --===============6807968390331311295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm trying to tidy the absolute dragon's hoard I call an office, so I'm looking to give away some books I haven't touched in years. These are free for the taking for anybody who wants to drive to SF and get them. I'd really prefer for somebody to take them all at once, of course. - DEC PDP11/70 Processor Handbook - DEC VAX11 Architecture Handbook - DEC PDP11 Peripherals and Interfacing Handbook - DEC Introduction to Programming (PDP-8) - Programming Languages: History and Fundamentals (Sammet) - Computer Networks, 1st ed (Tanenbaum) - Modern Operating Systems, 2nd ed (Tanenbaum) - Operating Systems Design and Implementation, 1st ed (Tanenbaum) - Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment (Stevens) - Computer Architecture and Organization, 2nd ed (Hayes) - Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools (Aho, Sethi, Ullman) - The Undocumented PC, 2nd ed (van Gilluwe) - Cybernetics (Wiener) If you want these, please email me *off-list* to set it up. John --===============6807968390331311295==-- From lyokoboy0@gmail.com Wed Sep 25 00:47:48 2024 From: Devin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free computing books, SF bay area Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 20:47:38 -0400 Message-ID: <189EEAB5-1D8D-4CF6-BF28-D8BFAC5BB7C3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <87seto61rs.fsf@thufir.floren.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7981419811509266013==" --===============7981419811509266013== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, i am interested! Located in the melbourne florida area. Is local picku= p or shipping an option , if i were to pay? I would love to have a 1st editio= n copy of the minix book, and have lots of dec systems applicable to the book= s. Where are you located at exactly? --Devin D. On September 24, 2024 7:59:33 PM EDT, John Floren via cctalk wrote: >I'm trying to tidy the absolute dragon's hoard I call an office, so I'm >looking to give away some books I haven't touched in years. These are >free for the taking for anybody who wants to drive to SF and get >them. I'd really prefer for somebody to take them all at once, of >course. > >- DEC PDP11/70 Processor Handbook >- DEC VAX11 Architecture Handbook >- DEC PDP11 Peripherals and Interfacing Handbook >- DEC Introduction to Programming (PDP-8) >- Programming Languages: History and Fundamentals (Sammet) >- Computer Networks, 1st ed (Tanenbaum) >- Modern Operating Systems, 2nd ed (Tanenbaum) >- Operating Systems Design and Implementation, 1st ed (Tanenbaum) >- Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment (Stevens) >- Computer Architecture and Organization, 2nd ed (Hayes) >- Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools (Aho, Sethi, Ullman) >- The Undocumented PC, 2nd ed (van Gilluwe) >- Cybernetics (Wiener) > >If you want these, please email me *off-list* to set it up. > > > John --===============7981419811509266013==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Sep 25 01:57:24 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] request for 5.25 floppies Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 20:57:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8596634605915812374==" --===============8596634605915812374== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I feel a little silly asking this, I hope it is not an overly inappropriate request for this mailing list. But does anyone here in the States happen to have a stack of known-good 5.25 disks they don't want anymore? And more specifically, would it be possible for anyone to image such a disk with a copy of PC-DOS 2.0 or earlier? (and maybe on up to 3.3 or so) The later part is the service that would be more helpful to me. I finally have a drive for an old system that currently uses bubble memory cartridges to boot to PC-DOS 2.0, and so we'd like to see if (using these external drives) it could also boot to a (confirmed legit) image of IBM PC-DOS (and/or very early Microsoft DOS). Or, do we still need some kind of proprietary Sharp DOS image? (in which case, extra blank disk would be good, as I think there are tools on these bubble memory cartridges to initialize disks accordingly). An actual 160KB formatted PC DOS 1.0 would be fantastic to have on hand - but the 180KB slightly later image would be fine also (and then also to experiment how far "past 2.0" that this system might support, if at all). For shipping/delivery purposes, I'm in north Texas. When I got these drives, I then realized I no longer have any 5.25 floppies anymore - and even if I did, then I'm not quite sure how to get the images on there (did anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25" drive? I have a couple 3.5 versions of those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for USB? :D ). Thanks, SteveL --===============8596634605915812374==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Sep 25 02:24:18 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 19:24:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3066454790286074525==" --===============3066454790286074525== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > But does anyone here in the States happen to have a stack of known-good > 5.25 disks they don't want anymore? Sorry, not right now > have a drive for an old system that currently uses bubble memory > cartridges to boot to PC-DOS 2.0, and so we'd like to see if (using > these external drives) it could also boot to a (confirmed legit) image > of IBM PC-DOS (and/or very early Microsoft DOS). Or, do we still need > some kind of proprietary Sharp DOS image? (in which case, extra blank > disk would be good, as I think there are tools on these bubble memory > cartridges to initialize disks accordingly). What kind of drive is it? If it boots to PC-DOS 2.00, not MS-DOS 2.00, then it is not some kind of proprietary Sharp DOS. If Sharp, or whoever made your machine, ever did provide their own customized MS-DOS, it was likely to be versions 1.25, 2.11, or 3.31 Many OEMs added 3.5 support in MS-DOS 2.00 amd 2.11. PC-DOS didn't support 720K until PC-DOS 3.20, and 1.4M 2ith 3.30 > (did anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25" drive? I have a couple 3.5 > versions of those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for > USB? :D ). a few minor problems, in addition to power (easily solved with a external brick) There did once exist a few, but they are VERY rare. There were also some with cooperative circuitry, that had an unmodified 3.5 drive in them that could be recabled to 5.25. (still a few gotchas to deal with, such as "Disk changed" signal) But, if you have a functioning 720K 3.5, you could put early 5.25 DOS on it, even down to 1.00, and just use the first 40 tracks. In the days before the 5170, the machine didn't really care, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3066454790286074525==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Wed Sep 25 02:41:15 2024 From: "Ryan de Laplante (Personal)" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Back-plane wrap (was Re: Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction)) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 22:34:51 -0400 Message-ID: <335cc836-a5a5-4cf0-84e4-61a75ffb3997@ryandelaplante.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2978802508760114377==" --===============2978802508760114377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Mike, Did the wire wrap tool sell?   Is it any good for DEC backplanes? Thanks, Ryan On 2024-08-31 10:29 a.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > If I can find it, is anyone interested in a battery-powered wire wrap tool? > Not sure of the diameter but it's larger than an IC socket, so I suspect > that it is in fact for a backplane. > > Postage from Toronto. > > On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 1:55 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 8/30/2024 7:25 PM, cz via cctalk wrote: >>> To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an extended >>> memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap backplane and >>> enough cards to make it work but I've never done wire-wrap on this sort >>> of scale. >>> >>> I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of wire. Is there >>> any sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping? >> Some of the older (single-sided especially) DEC back-planes were wrapped >> with heavier gauge wire, which needs a different tool. The newer >> back-planes seem to be wrapped with 30 gauge wire. You can tell the old >> connector blocks, as the pins appear rectangular, rather then square. >> >> There are all kinds of opportunity for optimizing routing for distance, >> cross-talk and and other esoterica. One thing that's worth doing, >> though, is to wrap for a max height of two, and such that all the >> connections (except possibly the last end of a given signal) are at the >> same height. So, if A B C and D are to be connected together, you >> connect A to B, then C to D (thus all at the lower level), then put the >> connection of B to C at a higher level. This dramatically cuts down on >> the amount you have to *unwrap* to fix something. Avoid situations which >> cross the height boundary, because then you have to keep unwrapping >> stuff you'd rather not, to expose the buried lower side. >> >> If you are wrapping by hand, you can be assured that you *will* make >> mistakes and have to fix something. >> >> I predict you will also find that you are really sick of wire-wrap long >> before you are done. These days, PCBs are inexpensive, and less error >> prone (in the sense that you almost always end up with exactly the >> connections in the netlist). OTOH, connectors are expensive and hard to >> reuse when soldered to a PCB. So you've got to be really confident of >> your netlist. >> >> You might consider investing in a tool where you pull the trigger to do >> the wrap. You'll probably get a more consistent result, and >> significantly fewer repetitive motion issues. >> >> Hope that helps! >> >> Vince >> --===============2978802508760114377==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Wed Sep 25 02:46:29 2024 From: "Ryan de Laplante (Personal)" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Does anyone have a VT52, TU56 controller, or Apple II rev 0 available for sale? Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 22:46:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6529088604482451785==" --===============6529088604482451785== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you or someone you know might be willing to sell, please contact me off-list.  I'm in Canada, near Toronto. The TU56 controller is for a PDP 11/45. I know about the VT52 in Australia on eBay right now. Shipping something that large and heavy from Australia is too much, and we have different electrical outlets in North America. I'm also looking for certain NightOwl shareware CDs from the BBSing era: 1 - 9 (except 4 and 6), 24, 26, Games #1, Games #3, Windows Vol 1 & 2. Maybe some Boardwatch magazines as well.  Anything BBS related. --===============6529088604482451785==-- From travispierce70@gmail.com Wed Sep 25 03:07:48 2024 From: Travis Pierce To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 21:07:33 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2788689278467603147==" --===============2788689278467603147== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Steve! I have quite a few DSDD 5.25" disks in inventory right now. I bought a bunch from a military surplus store online a few years back and those disks have proven to be very reliable. I'd be glad to make any disk that you need. I do quite a bit of disk archiving and I have quite a few drives for just about any project. It will only take me a few minutes to make any disk. Just email me directly and we can go from there. I'll just need to be pointed to the disk images that you want to use. I'm in Utah. travispierce70(a)gmail.com Travis On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 8:24=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > But does anyone here in the States happen to have a stack of known-good > > 5.25 disks they don't want anymore? > > Sorry, not right now > > > > have a drive for an old system that currently uses bubble memory > > cartridges to boot to PC-DOS 2.0, and so we'd like to see if (using > > these external drives) it could also boot to a (confirmed legit) image > > of IBM PC-DOS (and/or very early Microsoft DOS). Or, do we still need > > some kind of proprietary Sharp DOS image? (in which case, extra blank > > disk would be good, as I think there are tools on these bubble memory > > cartridges to initialize disks accordingly). > > What kind of drive is it? > > If it boots to PC-DOS 2.00, not MS-DOS 2.00, then it is not some kind of > proprietary Sharp DOS. > > If Sharp, or whoever made your machine, ever did provide their own > customized MS-DOS, it was likely to be versions 1.25, 2.11, or 3.31 > Many OEMs added 3.5 support in MS-DOS 2.00 amd 2.11. PC-DOS didn't > support 720K until PC-DOS 3.20, and 1.4M 2ith 3.30 > > > > (did anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25" drive? I have a couple 3.5 > > versions of those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for > > USB? :D ). > > a few minor problems, in addition to power (easily solved with a external > brick) > There did once exist a few, but they are VERY rare. > There were also some with cooperative circuitry, that had an unmodified > 3.5 drive in them that could be recabled to 5.25. > (still a few gotchas to deal with, such as "Disk changed" signal) > > > But, if you have a functioning 720K 3.5, you could put early 5.25 DOS on > it, even down to 1.00, and just use the first 40 tracks. In the days > before the 5170, the machine didn't really care, > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============2788689278467603147==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Sep 25 04:19:54 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 23:19:38 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7478377226675470721==" --===============7478377226675470721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually - in the Sharp advertisement, they "name drop" Microsoft explicitly - so perhaps I misspoke in mentioning IBM's PC-DOS (but if we're making disks, I'd just try to have both ready just in case). I've not yet opened the external drive enclosure to investigate specific model/parts (I'm very curious about the controller and how it differs from the standard IBM ISA disk drive controller, but there is some difference since a 37-pin drive that worked in my 5150 wouldn't work with this Sharp). I'm generally clumsy with hardware (in a "oops, dropped that cup of screws all onto the board while it was powered on" kind of way- maybe not that bad, but enough to know to go slow and enjoy what I have for a bit first, before I open it and screw it all up; my biggest regret was on a 1996 ThinkPad - it was running OS/2 just fine on a handsome solid state proxy IDE, but I didn't like the color fade on the bezel of the CD-ROM, and just "had" to going back in and address that - and that system has never booted since). Point being, I'd like to try some disk first before tinkering inside this drive enclosure. The host system is this: < https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000 > which I hope to finally prepare a broader video about it before the end of this year. And - oh, depending on the controller, we might be able to adapt a 720K drive onto it? I see, that'd be an interesting mod. But not yet - gotta try as-is first. This Sharp is a tad confusing (or it was to me). I had the impression that the DOS was built into the ROM - but no, it's actually copied/placed onto each of the bubble memory cartridges, so it is always "booting" to DOS like a "normal" system. Also in my notes - i may have to revise on if the BASIC is built-in or not. It's "built into" one of the ROM cartridges you place into the bottom of the system. So it's not technically a "boot to BASIC" system either (I'm not sure if that excused them from Microsoft licensing in some way??). Or actually - I'll have to unplug that cartridge and remind myself what all the system can do on its own (as I recall, in doing so, it does "boot" into a self-running demo mode). I hope it's not too much of a lost cause - I think I do recall coming across an article that mentioned that the system could be booted from the external floppy. And if it could miraculously boot to something like DOS 3.2 - well, I can't think of any program of that era that would play nice with an 8 row screen. But that's the goal here, to just see what happens. In the worse case, this will mean I can make a backup of all the content of these bubble memory cartridges content, just in case they start to deteriorate in some way (that said - since it does have a "built in" BASIC, I suppose technically I can do a BASIC that invokes the serial port and I could export every file that way; thumbing through the manual it does have some keywords that might accommodate that -- I'll save that as a last resort). And Thank You Travis, I'll be in contact!! -Steve On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 10:00 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > But does anyone here in the States happen to have a stack of known-good > > 5.25 disks they don't want anymore? > > Sorry, not right now > > > > have a drive for an old system that currently uses bubble memory > > cartridges to boot to PC-DOS 2.0, and so we'd like to see if (using > > these external drives) it could also boot to a (confirmed legit) image > > of IBM PC-DOS (and/or very early Microsoft DOS). Or, do we still need > > some kind of proprietary Sharp DOS image? (in which case, extra blank > > disk would be good, as I think there are tools on these bubble memory > > cartridges to initialize disks accordingly). > > What kind of drive is it? > > If it boots to PC-DOS 2.00, not MS-DOS 2.00, then it is not some kind of > proprietary Sharp DOS. > > If Sharp, or whoever made your machine, ever did provide their own > customized MS-DOS, it was likely to be versions 1.25, 2.11, or 3.31 > Many OEMs added 3.5 support in MS-DOS 2.00 amd 2.11. PC-DOS didn't > support 720K until PC-DOS 3.20, and 1.4M 2ith 3.30 > > > > (did anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25" drive? I have a couple 3.5 > > versions of those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for > > USB? :D ). > > a few minor problems, in addition to power (easily solved with a external > brick) > There did once exist a few, but they are VERY rare. > There were also some with cooperative circuitry, that had an unmodified > 3.5 drive in them that could be recabled to 5.25. > (still a few gotchas to deal with, such as "Disk changed" signal) > > > But, if you have a functioning 720K 3.5, you could put early 5.25 DOS on > it, even down to 1.00, and just use the first 40 tracks. In the days > before the 5170, the machine didn't really care, > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============7478377226675470721==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Sep 25 11:42:20 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Siemens 4004 mainframe pictures on bitsavers Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 13:42:07 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7217889750628629844==" --===============7217889750628629844== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those who doesn't know it: The Siemens 4004 was basically a rebadged RCA Spectra 70, so this is a RCA 70/15. Maybe technical/service manuals for this system come up. (the owner already searched everything incl. bitsavers, of course) Christian On Mon, 23 Sep 2024, Adrian Stoness wrote: > it was being talked about on one of the discords voice chats the other day. > the guy is looking for manuals for it so if u got them upload them > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:17?AM P Gebhardt via cctalk > wrote: > >> Hello list, >> >> out of curiosity: Does anybody know where the two pictures of the Siemens >> 4004 CPU uploaded on >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/siemens/4004/Model_15/pictures/ >> >> where taken? Are these from the unit being part of the SAP collection at >> CHM? >> >> Cheers, >> Pierre >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >> http://www.digitalheritage.de >> > --===============7217889750628629844==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Wed Sep 25 11:51:11 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 12:51:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1766008075219089515==" --===============1766008075219089515== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > For shipping/delivery purposes, I'm in north Texas. When I got these > drives, I then realized I no longer have any 5.25 floppies anymore - and > even if I did, then I'm not quite sure how to get the images on there (did > anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25" drive? I have a couple 3.5 versions of > those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for USB? :D ). From the software's point of view the drives are the same (with different limits of course), e.g. once I successfully formatted 3.5" HD medium for 80 tracks of 15 sectors double-sided and imaged a 1.2MB 5.25" disk onto it for use with IIRC DOS 3.2 that didn't support 3.5" drives and it booted from that disk and worked just fine treating the 3.5" HD drive as a 5.25" HD drive. However whatever the circuitry the USB-to-FDD adapter has, it has to provide a way to set track and sector count with the drive behind, but I guess it has to anyway to support 720kB (and maybe 2.88MB) 3.5" medium if nothing else. As someone else pointed out power can be supplied externally and data can be wired using an original flat ribbon cable, by using corresponding .1" pitch PCB pin header and PCB edge IDC connectors originally intended for the drive at the same address (or an equivalent purpose-made cable). NB this is based on my past experience with original floppy disk drives and not any USB-to-FDD adapters, in a hope that it will help. Good luck! Maciej --===============1766008075219089515==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Wed Sep 25 11:57:52 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 12:57:46 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3930305645610792597==" --===============3930305645610792597== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 25 Sep 2024, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > As someone else pointed out power can be supplied externally and data can > be wired using an original flat ribbon cable, by using corresponding .1" > pitch PCB pin header and PCB edge IDC connectors originally intended for > the drive at the same address (or an equivalent purpose-made cable). Umm, I realised this will be the wrong gender as I suppose an USB-to-FDD adapter will have the PCB pin header connector soldered directly. So a purpose-made cable will be needed and it will require parts and tools. Maciej --===============3930305645610792597==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 25 17:24:27 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 10:24:16 -0700 Message-ID: <38762d19253c529c093a2d7ac63e7bf3dac2f915.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4843946629855178655==" --===============4843946629855178655== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Only related to the subject, not the body of the discussion: I found a stack of 5.25" floppies for Norton Utilities. I don't have any 5.25" drives. If you want the disks, they're yours for a PDF of a shipping label for 8"x10"x1" 8oz. I have no idea whether they're readable. Van Snyder 2229 Shields Street La Crescenta, CA 91214 --===============4843946629855178655==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Wed Sep 25 18:17:27 2024 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 19:11:49 +0100 Message-ID: <1d02a699-591e-464d-ba19-9c38933723b0@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8407895133808610229==" --===============8407895133808610229== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will chip my 5 cents worth in here... For some reference, i have experience writing some weird formats to both 3.5 and 5.25 floppy disks. On 25/09/2024 02:57, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > And more specifically, would it be > possible for anyone to image such a disk with a copy of PC-DOS 2.0 or > earlier? (and maybe on up to 3.3 or so) There is a plethora of floppy disk manipulation software out there. Much of it for PC based systems. There is a DOS based CP/M image writing software suite i have seen but not used. Omniflop, which is freeware for 32bit NT OSes can write a whole host of obscure systems, probably including your Sharp system. Obviously, you need disk images to write to the floppies, but any post-pentium system should be a good bridge system for such a task. Win2k is the last NT system without activation, so is a great candidate for an NT bridge system. > The later part is the service that would be more helpful to me. I finally > have a drive for an old system that currently uses bubble memory cartridges > to boot to PC-DOS 2.0, and so we'd like to see if (using these external > drives) it could also boot to a (confirmed legit) image of IBM PC-DOS > (and/or very early Microsoft DOS). Or, do we still need some kind of > proprietary Sharp DOS image? (in which case, extra blank disk would be > good, as I think there are tools on these bubble memory cartridges to > initialize disks accordingly). As long as the floppy drive has a Shugart compatible interface ("standard" 5.25 card edge or 34pin connector) you can use said drive with a PC to format the disks. Might require drive swapping between systemsand a kludgy system to make them, but it's pretty simple. I'm sure there's disk images out there. Cheers, Josh Rice --===============8407895133808610229==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Sep 25 19:01:35 2024 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 20:01:28 +0100 Message-ID: <306d01db0f7d$53e496e0$fbadc4a0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3358002652534570450==" --===============3358002652534570450== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk > Sent: 25 September 2024 12:51 > To: Steve Lewis via cctalk > Cc: Steve Lewis ; Maciej W. Rozycki > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies > > On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > For shipping/delivery purposes, I'm in north Texas. When I got these > > drives, I then realized I no longer have any 5.25 floppies anymore - > > and even if I did, then I'm not quite sure how to get the images on > > there (did anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25" drive? I have a couple 3.5 > > versions of those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for USB? :D > ). There are several USB to floppy tools that interface to floppies at a low level and which can be used to read/write images. This is one:- https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki Dave G4UGM > > From the software's point of view the drives are the same (with different limits > of course), e.g. once I successfully formatted 3.5" HD medium for > 80 tracks of 15 sectors double-sided and imaged a 1.2MB 5.25" disk onto it for > use with IIRC DOS 3.2 that didn't support 3.5" drives and it booted from that > disk and worked just fine treating the 3.5" HD drive as a 5.25" > HD drive. > > However whatever the circuitry the USB-to-FDD adapter has, it has to provide a > way to set track and sector count with the drive behind, but I guess it has to > anyway to support 720kB (and maybe 2.88MB) 3.5" medium if nothing else. > > As someone else pointed out power can be supplied externally and data can be > wired using an original flat ribbon cable, by using corresponding .1" > pitch PCB pin header and PCB edge IDC connectors originally intended for the > drive at the same address (or an equivalent purpose-made cable). > > NB this is based on my past experience with original floppy disk drives and not > any USB-to-FDD adapters, in a hope that it will help. Good luck! > > Maciej Dave --===============3358002652534570450==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Sep 25 19:54:41 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Siemens 4004 mainframe pictures on bitsavers Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 12:53:24 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4140770040614413076==" --===============4140770040614413076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 4:42 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > For those who doesn't know it: > The Siemens 4004 was basically a rebadged RCA Spectra 70, so this is a > RCA 70/15. Maybe technical/service manuals for this system come up. > (the owner already searched everything incl. bitsavers, of course) > > Christian > Thanks for the elucidation. I forgot that Siemens also had a 4004 model CPU and was wondering here how that mess of wires had anything to do with the Intel 4004 :) Sellam --===============4140770040614413076==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Sep 25 20:05:59 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 13:05:55 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1225786203549684482==" --===============1225786203549684482== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 25 Sep 2024, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > From the software's point of view the drives are the same (with different > limits of course), e.g. once I successfully formatted 3.5" HD medium for > 80 tracks of 15 sectors double-sided and imaged a 1.2MB 5.25" disk onto it > for use with IIRC DOS 3.2 that didn't support 3.5" drives and it booted > from that disk and worked just fine treating the 3.5" HD drive as a 5.25" > HD drive. yes trivial correction: 3.20 supported "720K" 3.5" (also some OEM modified MS-DOS 2.00 and 2.11) 3.30 supported "1.4M" 3.5" I used "720K" 3.5" drives, even down to PC-DOS 1.00 ! (but, my primary interest was reading sectors, and then parsing file systems) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1225786203549684482==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Sep 25 20:41:11 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 13:41:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0564578388736541076==" --===============0564578388736541076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Sharp PC-5000 was definitely MS-DOS, not PC-DOS. PC-DOS, however might work on it! or at least almost. BUT, some of the supplied programs will be different. For example, MODE.COM will be significantly different. The PC-7000 was reasonably PC compatible. The PC-5000 was VERY similar to the Gavilan. The Gavilan came with an 8 line display, and later a 16 line display. But, it also had an RCA phono jack to connect to an external compostie monitor! Gavilan had optional bubble memory cartridges, but that never caught on. They had a thermal/ink printer that could attach to the backside. (plain paper with a ribbon, or thermaal paper, or excellent quality using thermal paper with the ribbon. Yhey had an external 5.25" drive, and a clip-on second 3.5" drive. The first Gavilans were 3" disks, but they soon changed to 3.5" The drives were single sided, with a custom bezel, but that bezel could be easily mounted on Shugart SA350 to instaall in place of the stock drive, for double sided. The Gavilan started off with a modified MS-DOS 2.00. The Gavilan 3.5" disk format was NOT the same as PC-DOS 3.20 format, initially. But, by their MS-DOS 2.11, with revision L (released after the company had closed down!), the format was matched to IBM's. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Actually - in the Sharp advertisement, they "name drop" Microsoft > explicitly - so perhaps I misspoke in mentioning IBM's PC-DOS (but if we're > making disks, I'd just try to have both ready just in case). I've not > yet opened the external drive enclosure to investigate specific model/parts > (I'm very curious about the controller and how it differs from the standard > IBM ISA disk drive controller, but there is some difference since a 37-pin > drive that worked in my 5150 wouldn't work with this Sharp). > > I'm generally clumsy with hardware (in a "oops, dropped that cup of screws > all onto the board while it was powered on" kind of way- maybe not that > bad, but enough to know to go slow and enjoy what I have for a bit first, > before I open it and screw it all up; my biggest regret was on a 1996 > ThinkPad - it was running OS/2 just fine on a handsome solid state proxy > IDE, but I didn't like the color fade on the bezel of the CD-ROM, and just > "had" to going back in and address that - and that system has never booted > since). Point being, I'd like to try some disk first before tinkering > inside this drive enclosure. The host system is this: < > https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000 > which I hope to finally prepare a > broader video about it before the end of this year. > > And - oh, depending on the controller, we might be able to adapt a 720K > drive onto it? I see, that'd be an interesting mod. But not yet - gotta > try as-is first. This Sharp is a tad confusing (or it was to me). I had > the impression that the DOS was built into the ROM - but no, it's actually > copied/placed onto each of the bubble memory cartridges, so it is always > "booting" to DOS like a "normal" system. Also in my notes - i may have to > revise on if the BASIC is built-in or not. It's "built into" one of the > ROM cartridges you place into the bottom of the system. So it's not > technically a "boot to BASIC" system either (I'm not sure if that excused > them from Microsoft licensing in some way??). Or actually - I'll have to > unplug that cartridge and remind myself what all the system can do on its > own (as I recall, in doing so, it does "boot" into a self-running demo > mode). > > I hope it's not too much of a lost cause - I think I do recall coming > across an article that mentioned that the system could be booted from the > external floppy. And if it could miraculously boot to something like DOS > 3.2 - well, I can't think of any program of that era that would play nice > with an 8 row screen. But that's the goal here, to just see what > happens. In the worse case, this will mean I can make a backup of all the > content of these bubble memory cartridges content, just in case they start > to deteriorate in some way (that said - since it does have a "built in" > BASIC, I suppose technically I can do a BASIC that invokes the serial port > and I could export every file that way; thumbing through the manual it does > have some keywords that might accommodate that -- I'll save that as a last > resort). > > And Thank You Travis, I'll be in contact!! > -Steve --===============0564578388736541076==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Wed Sep 25 22:47:49 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Back-plane wrap (was Re: Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction)) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 18:47:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <335cc836-a5a5-4cf0-84e4-61a75ffb3997@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5840190134260159258==" --===============5840190134260159258== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No, nobody else inquired about it. I have no idea it will fit a DEC backplane; AFAIK it was used on NCR systems. It might take me a while to find it; when I do I'll try to determine the dimensions of the pins and the wire gauge. On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 10:41 PM Ryan de Laplante (Personal) via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hey Mike, > > Did the wire wrap tool sell? Is it any good for DEC backplanes? > > > Thanks, > > Ryan > > > On 2024-08-31 10:29 a.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > If I can find it, is anyone interested in a battery-powered wire wrap > tool? > > Not sure of the diameter but it's larger than an IC socket, so I suspect > > that it is in fact for a backplane. > > > > Postage from Toronto. > > > > On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 1:55 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On 8/30/2024 7:25 PM, cz via cctalk wrote: > >>> To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an extended > >>> memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap backplane and > >>> enough cards to make it work but I've never done wire-wrap on this sort > >>> of scale. > >>> > >>> I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of wire. Is there > >>> any sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping? > >> Some of the older (single-sided especially) DEC back-planes were wrapped > >> with heavier gauge wire, which needs a different tool. The newer > >> back-planes seem to be wrapped with 30 gauge wire. You can tell the old > >> connector blocks, as the pins appear rectangular, rather then square. > >> > >> There are all kinds of opportunity for optimizing routing for distance, > >> cross-talk and and other esoterica. One thing that's worth doing, > >> though, is to wrap for a max height of two, and such that all the > >> connections (except possibly the last end of a given signal) are at the > >> same height. So, if A B C and D are to be connected together, you > >> connect A to B, then C to D (thus all at the lower level), then put the > >> connection of B to C at a higher level. This dramatically cuts down on > >> the amount you have to *unwrap* to fix something. Avoid situations which > >> cross the height boundary, because then you have to keep unwrapping > >> stuff you'd rather not, to expose the buried lower side. > >> > >> If you are wrapping by hand, you can be assured that you *will* make > >> mistakes and have to fix something. > >> > >> I predict you will also find that you are really sick of wire-wrap long > >> before you are done. These days, PCBs are inexpensive, and less error > >> prone (in the sense that you almost always end up with exactly the > >> connections in the netlist). OTOH, connectors are expensive and hard to > >> reuse when soldered to a PCB. So you've got to be really confident of > >> your netlist. > >> > >> You might consider investing in a tool where you pull the trigger to do > >> the wrap. You'll probably get a more consistent result, and > >> significantly fewer repetitive motion issues. > >> > >> Hope that helps! > >> > >> Vince > >> > > --===============5840190134260159258==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Sep 26 00:11:27 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 19:11:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <38762d19253c529c093a2d7ac63e7bf3dac2f915.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4988146742112847040==" --===============4988146742112847040== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll take that offer, thanks Van! And in general, about this experiment: Reviewing my notes when I last explored into this, a little over a year ago: https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/sharp-ce-510f-disk-drive-looking-fo= r-pinout-for-sharp-pc-5000-or-mz-80b.1242950/ It mentions: 360KB, 9 sector/track, DS/DD. But also, it mentions a peculiar Sharp model number for disk media, specifically "MS-DOS CE-101F" I've so far been unable to find an image of their stock OS, and so I'm just hoping/gambling some distro of either PC-DOS or MS-DOS might work. And their interface on this is a 37-pin, but digging into that (see notes in the link above) I think some of the pins used ended up being different than the pin out described in the IBM manuals for the IBM 5150's standard disk drive controller (that also has a 37-pin connector at the back of it). By reading, it seems pin 4, 6, 10, and 34 were different (but I'm not tech h/w savvy enough to deduce yet if it's just different ordering, or truly different signals along the wiring) One other thing - I think the PC-5000 on bootup (with the cartridges) I recall it saying DOS 2.01 or possibly 2.11 - I don't have the machine near me at the moment, but in a few days I'll be able to check again. -Steve On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 12:24=E2=80=AFPM Van Snyder via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Only related to the subject, not the body of the discussion: > > I found a stack of 5.25" floppies for Norton Utilities. I don't have > any 5.25" drives. If you want the disks, they're yours for a PDF of a > shipping label for 8"x10"x1" 8oz. I have no idea whether they're > readable. > > Van Snyder > 2229 Shields Street > La Crescenta, CA 91214 > > > --===============4988146742112847040==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Sep 26 00:58:49 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 17:58:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1871364192888489149==" --===============1871364192888489149== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pin 4 is "Head Load" Pin 6 can be either "Ready" or drive select 4 Pin 10 is drive select for first drive. Pin 34 is "READY", or "Disk Changed", or fourth drive selrct (TRS80) BUT, IBM PC puts a twist in the cable (pins 10 - 16?), and does selection=20 by the cable with all drives jumpered to be second drive. Drive A: is=20 after the twist; drive B: is before the twist. https://superuser.com/questions/849079/what-is-the-little-twist-in-this-flopp= y-ribbon-cable-for So, at the very least, you will need to make up a cable. possibly a straight cable, and jumper the drive as A: ! https://archive.org/stream/TNM_Sharp_PC-5000_portable_computer_-_Sharp_Elect_= 20180303_0200/TNM_Sharp_PC-5000_portable_computer_-_Sharp_Elect_20180303_0200= _djvu.txt says that CE-101F is a "System disk" (bootable) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Wed, 25 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > I'll take that offer, thanks Van! > > > And in general, about this experiment: > > Reviewing my notes when I last explored into this, a little over a year ago: > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/sharp-ce-510f-disk-drive-looking-= for-pinout-for-sharp-pc-5000-or-mz-80b.1242950/ > > It mentions: 360KB, 9 sector/track, DS/DD. > > But also, it mentions a peculiar Sharp model number for disk media, > specifically "MS-DOS CE-101F" > I've so far been unable to find an image of their stock OS, and so I'm just > hoping/gambling some distro of either PC-DOS or MS-DOS might work. > > And their interface on this is a 37-pin, but digging into that (see notes > in the link above) I think some of the pins used ended up being different > than the pin out described in the IBM manuals for the IBM 5150's standard > disk drive controller (that also has a 37-pin connector at the back of > it). By reading, it seems pin 4, 6, 10, and 34 were different (but I'm not > tech h/w savvy enough to deduce yet if it's just different ordering, or > truly different signals along the wiring) > > > > One other thing - I think the PC-5000 on bootup (with the cartridges) I > recall it saying DOS 2.01 or possibly 2.11 - I don't have the machine near > me at the moment, but in a few days I'll be able to check again. > > > -Steve > > > > On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 12:24=E2=80=AFPM Van Snyder via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Only related to the subject, not the body of the discussion: >> >> I found a stack of 5.25" floppies for Norton Utilities. I don't have >> any 5.25" drives. If you want the disks, they're yours for a PDF of a >> shipping label for 8"x10"x1" 8oz. I have no idea whether they're >> readable. >> >> Van Snyder >> 2229 Shields Street >> La Crescenta, CA 91214 >> >> >> --===============1871364192888489149==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Fri Sep 27 22:57:56 2024 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF Swap Meet - Wall, NJ - Oct. 26, 2024 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 18:57:34 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3214453076660638260==" --===============3214453076660638260== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IT=E2=80=99S GOING TO BE A *COOL *ONE! 60 degrees, sunny and dry. So buy a VCF hoodie when you get there ;-D We are again having our popular tech swap meet on Saturday Oct. 26 and it will be bigger than ever! VENDOR SIGNUP CLICK HERE FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *FOOD TRUCK*: We will once again have John=E2=80=99s Cracker Barrel selling delicious food from their food truck. I will see you there! Stay warm! INFORMATION IS HERE: https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/ Blog Post is here: https://vcfed.org/2024/09/27/tech-swap-meet-sat-oct-26-near-infoage/ Take care! Jeff Brace VCF Mid-Atlantic Event Manager Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ --===============3214453076660638260==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Sun Sep 29 12:40:00 2024 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Nintendo is 135 years old Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:33:31 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6288846444104014874==" --===============6288846444104014874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Quite classic. You would not have believed it - they were not making consoles when they started. [ Nintendo at 135: Key moments in gaming history https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/articles/c79n845rrj0o ] -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============6288846444104014874==-- From jgeorge_cctalk@nbi6.com Mon Sep 30 20:37:11 2024 From: Joe George To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Nintendo is 135 years old Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:27:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7084343148611489414==" --===============7084343148611489414== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an alternate-nerdness fondness for playing cards and unusual card deck= s, and Hanafuda cards qualify. I have several decks of Nintendo Hanafuda card= s, they still make them. Joe > On Sep 29, 2024, at 8:33 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hi >=20 > Quite classic. You would not have believed it - they were not making > consoles when they started. >=20 > [ >=20 > Nintendo at 135: Key moments in gaming history >=20 > https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/articles/c79n845rrj0o >=20 > ] >=20 > --=20 > Regards, > Tomasz Rola >=20 > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============7084343148611489414==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 30 21:21:20 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Might be antique computer parts Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 14:21:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1869361949448509619==" --===============1869361949448509619== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like vacuum tubes with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) and 12C5 (five seconds). They're in their original boxes. I have no idea what devices used them. It seems a shame to throw them in a recycle bin. Does anybody want them? Van Snyder --===============1869361949448509619==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Sep 30 21:23:48 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 17:23:41 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4694720105938874785==" --===============4694720105938874785== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One application for devices like that would be vacuum tube power amplifiers, = to delay the high voltage power supply until after the heater current has bee= n on for a bit. paul > On Sep 30, 2024, at 5:21 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like vacuum tubes > with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) and 12C5 (five > seconds). >=20 > They're in their original boxes. >=20 > I have no idea what devices used them. >=20 > It seems a shame to throw them in a recycle bin. >=20 > Does anybody want them? >=20 > Van Snyder >=20 --===============4694720105938874785==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Sep 30 22:04:28 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 22:04:21 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1788454167662905734==" --===============1788454167662905734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If no takers, donate them to Goodwill. They=E2=80=99ll put them up on their w= eb site and someone will buy them. And you can get a tax deduction. =20 Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 30, 2024, at 14:23, Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOne application for devices like that would be vacuum tube power a= mplifiers, to delay the high voltage power supply until after the heater curr= ent has been on for a bit. >=20 > paul >=20 >> On Sep 30, 2024, at 5:21 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like vacuum tubes >> with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) and 12C5 (five >> seconds). >>=20 >> They're in their original boxes. >>=20 >> I have no idea what devices used them. >>=20 >> It seems a shame to throw them in a recycle bin. >>=20 >> Does anybody want them? >>=20 >> Van Snyder >>=20 >=20 --===============1788454167662905734==-- From dwilliams@port8080.net Mon Sep 30 22:58:30 2024 From: Daniel Williams To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:58:10 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218169C1E9ECD973E0296D4FE4762=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5032355264450377981==" --===============5032355264450377981== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd be happy to take them if no one else has a specific use for them. They sound like they'd be interesting to put into a project. What do you want for them? And what would shipping cost? ~Daniel On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 4:04=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > If no takers, donate them to Goodwill. They=E2=80=99ll put them up on their= web > site and someone will buy them. And you can get a tax deduction. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 30, 2024, at 14:23, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOne application for devices like that would be vacuum tube power > amplifiers, to delay the high voltage power supply until after the heater > current has been on for a bit. > > > > paul > > > >> On Sep 30, 2024, at 5:21 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >> I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like vacuum tubes > >> with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) and 12C5 (five > >> seconds). > >> > >> They're in their original boxes. > >> > >> I have no idea what devices used them. > >> > >> It seems a shame to throw them in a recycle bin. > >> > >> Does anybody want them? > >> > >> Van Snyder > >> > > > --===============5032355264450377981==-- From bobalan@sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 30 23:39:57 2024 From: Bob Rosenbloom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:39:49 -0700 Message-ID: <87c811f9-be6e-46f1-8261-f15f8d8d80c0@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3982980937402898204==" --===============3982980937402898204== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tektronix used this type of tube in some of their later vacuum tube scopes. Some audio amplifiers also used them. Can help improve tube life by keeping the plate supply off until the tubes warm up. Bob On 9/30/2024 2:21 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like vacuum tubes > with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) and 12C5 (five > seconds). > > They're in their original boxes. > > I have no idea what devices used them. > > It seems a shame to throw them in a recycle bin. > > Does anybody want them? > > Van Snyder > -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org --===============3982980937402898204==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Sep 30 23:52:13 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Might be antique computer parts Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 19:51:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87c811f9-be6e-46f1-8261-f15f8d8d80c0@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4970713621946630332==" --===============4970713621946630332== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another way to use them is to switch a series resistor out of the power suppl= y input after a few seconds; that is good for capacitor-input filters where t= he inrush current is otherwise very high. The 5 second delay may be just tha= t; it seems a bit short for the pre-heat delay. paul > On Sep 30, 2024, at 7:39 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Tektronix used this type of tube in some of their later vacuum tube scopes.= Some audio amplifiers also used them. Can help improve tube life by keeping = the plate supply off until the tubes warm up. >=20 > Bob >=20 > On 9/30/2024 2:21 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >> I have two SPST time delay 12-volt relays packaged like vacuum tubes >> with octal bases, Amperite models 12N010 (ten seconds) and 12C5 (five >> seconds). >>=20 >> They're in their original boxes. >>=20 >> I have no idea what devices used them. >>=20 >> It seems a shame to throw them in a recycle bin. >>=20 >> Does anybody want them? >>=20 >> Van Snyder >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org >=20 --===============4970713621946630332==--