From lproven@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 08:58:07 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 09:57:50 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1151765405.340921.1722435328622@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3929871597611126513==" --===============3929871597611126513== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 15:33, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > > Am i the ONLY person who preferred the win 3.1 user interface? Probably, s= ince I have never seen one like it on linux, and everybody else complains abo= ut it. Pretty close. I customised it heavily with shortcuts for all my apps and things and I missed that. NT 4's 95-a-like Explorer was slower. But it did so much more and needed so much less customisation to be usable. > another wish (for winblows or linux) if it was like Dos/win3.1 This is the closest thing I know: https://github.com/jcs/progman --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3929871597611126513==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 08:59:23 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Macintosh Plus clone Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 09:59:06 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3522642646705035053==" --===============3522642646705035053== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 13:11, Liam Proven wrote: > > So, yes, if replacing just the CPU is possible, replacing the rest of > the logic board as well is just an implementation issue. The entire case can just be 3D-printed: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5532530 https://hackaday.com/2024/07/30/this-home-made-mac-has-a-real-crt/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3522642646705035053==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Aug 1 12:15:29 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 08:15:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0719058393034829969==" --===============0719058393034829969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For awhile I would simply run PROGMAN.EXE on Windows NT, it would bring=20 up the traditional window interface. Eventually I got used to the=20 Windows 95/98 model. C On 8/1/2024 4:57 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 15:33, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Am i the ONLY person who preferred the win 3.1 user interface? Probably, = since I have never seen one like it on linux, and everybody else complains ab= out it. >=20 > Pretty close. I customised it heavily with shortcuts for all my apps > and things and I missed that. NT 4's 95-a-like Explorer was slower. > But it did so much more and needed so much less customisation to be > usable. >=20 >> another wish (for winblows or linux) if it was like Dos/win3.1 >=20 > This is the closest thing I know: >=20 > https://github.com/jcs/progman >=20 >=20 --===============0719058393034829969==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 15:52:04 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 11:51:43 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1151765405.340921.1722435328622@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7111382585881434843==" --===============7111382585881434843== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't forget about CMD and the Power Shell... On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 10:33=E2=80=AFAM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > > Am i the ONLY person who preferred the win 3.1 user interface? Probably, s= ince I have never seen one like it on linux, and everybody else complains abo= ut it. > > 1. I don't like "active anything" that pops up when I move the mouse one pi= xel further than I intended, or hides itself just as I am clicking on it so t= he click goes through to something behind, unintended. and don't get me star= ted on when I am resizing and go one pixel past the edge, so it maximizes...a= cross all my displays. sometimes takes me 3-5 attempts to resize one window = to almost fill one physical display. i think the maximizing across multiple = displays is only a winblows problem. > > 2. I could customize groupings in program manager: > --this group is all things related to the newsletter I prepare monthly, inc= luding the actual document, background info, program to print it, browser wit= h related information, etc. for the 3 days per month I work on it, and keeps= out of my way the rest of the time. > --or this group is only brought up in the spring, with items for planning m= y garden. but I might also bring it up briefly in the autumn when I see some= special seeds I never heard about before. > --the groupings helped for seldom used files/programs whose name I have tro= uble remembering...just bring up the group and it is there > --program manager was always there when I wanted it, or got hidden when I d= idn't > > 3. file manager had features I maybe could find now but have not, such as > --tiling *or* cascading several directories, and dragging files from one to= another, harder to set up with tabs or multiple instances of file manager. > --(maybe its fond memories, but I think I could) select several files and s= ort ONLY THEM, leaving the others unmoved, > --sort on file extension, > --sort with wildcards (probably can, just my ignorance?) > --show date and time even for not the last 24 hour files (I think I did fin= d such a file manager, but it lacked some other critical functions, or crashe= d all the time. > > two really big plusses afaik only in linux: > --I can expand a subdirectory now without jumping completely to it, which w= in 3.1 could not do > --also like that when attaching to an email, or opening, I can select from = "recently used" > > another wish (for winblows or linux) if it was like Dos/win3.1, where you b= oot do a dos prompt, it would be nice if I could bring up the graphical inter= face with &, and then bring up a second one....maybe a different, one or with= different options...especially now that I have multiple display adapters, a = win 3.1 like UI on one monitor, and a current UI on on the other monitor, the= n from either drag application windows to a third monitor. --===============7111382585881434843==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 16:11:49 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 17:11:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8069667561311806015==" --===============8069667561311806015== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 1 Aug 2024 at 13:23, cz via cctalk wrote: > > Windows NT and 2000 did not have the "cut through" ability for apps to > talk to video without going through security proxies, thus games were > always terrible on them. > > Windows XP was the first OS (well aside from Windows 95/ME/whatever) > that allowed fast access. This made it a security sinkhole, but everyone > loved it and that's why it was adopted as the standard for so long. I'm not specifically agreeing or disagreeing here, but I did read back at the time that something like what you describe applied to NT4, although I do not remember details. I think you could install DirectX but it didn't actually connect to the graphics card: it always did software rendering and performance was poor. Only actual OpenGL was hardware-accelerated, as it had been on NT 3.x as well. I'm not a gamer and wasn't then, and I never investigated it much at the time. On the magazine I wrote for then, Windows 98 was known as dismissively as "GameOS" and nobody seriously wanted to play games on NT4. I thought, but am not sure, that Win2K fixed this. The main visible "improvements" in XP were themes, faster boot/shutdown, compression of memory images so that hibernation and resume were much quicker, and some bundled tools (Movie Maker, File and Settings Transfer Wizard, etc.) The real change was external, in the PC hardware market and ecosystem: by the time XP shipped, most hardware vendors offered NT drivers for their hardware, firmware was more NT-compatible, games had been cleaned of code that hit the metal and worked via legal Windows APIs, and so on. So a new PC in 2002 worked much better with XP than a late-1990s PC did, and games worked on XP, etc... but that wasn't due to any particular change in the OS, it was that the hardware and software market had caught up and stopped making unsafe DOS calls, shipping direct-hardware-bashing VxD drivers, etc. MS knew this but spun it as "XP merges Windows 98 and 2000 to give you the best of both worlds, rich media and gaming with NT stability" -- but in actual fact no convergence had happened. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8069667561311806015==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Aug 1 16:22:27 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 16:22:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0319350083927854447==" --===============0319350083927854447== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe the biggest selling factor from Microsoft was that all drivers had = been converted to 32-bit in xp. Prior to that, there were still some 16 bitte= rs around. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2024, at 09:12, Liam Proven via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, 1 Aug 2024 at 13:23, cz via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> Windows NT and 2000 did not have the "cut through" ability for apps to >> talk to video without going through security proxies, thus games were >> always terrible on them. >>=20 >> Windows XP was the first OS (well aside from Windows 95/ME/whatever) >> that allowed fast access. This made it a security sinkhole, but everyone >> loved it and that's why it was adopted as the standard for so long. >=20 > I'm not specifically agreeing or disagreeing here, but I did read back > at the time that something like what you describe applied to NT4, > although I do not remember details. I think you could install DirectX > but it didn't actually connect to the graphics card: it always did > software rendering and performance was poor. Only actual OpenGL was > hardware-accelerated, as it had been on NT 3.x as well. >=20 > I'm not a gamer and wasn't then, and I never investigated it much at > the time. On the magazine I wrote for then, Windows 98 was known as > dismissively as "GameOS" and nobody seriously wanted to play games on > NT4. >=20 > I thought, but am not sure, that Win2K fixed this. >=20 > The main visible "improvements" in XP were themes, faster > boot/shutdown, compression of memory images so that hibernation and > resume were much quicker, and some bundled tools (Movie Maker, File > and Settings Transfer Wizard, etc.) >=20 > The real change was external, in the PC hardware market and ecosystem: > by the time XP shipped, most hardware vendors offered NT drivers for > their hardware, firmware was more NT-compatible, games had been > cleaned of code that hit the metal and worked via legal Windows APIs, > and so on. >=20 > So a new PC in 2002 worked much better with XP than a late-1990s PC > did, and games worked on XP, etc... but that wasn't due to any > particular change in the OS, it was that the hardware and software > market had caught up and stopped making unsafe DOS calls, shipping > direct-hardware-bashing VxD drivers, etc. >=20 > MS knew this but spun it as "XP merges Windows 98 and 2000 to give you > the best of both worlds, rich media and gaming with NT stability" -- > but in actual fact no convergence had happened. >=20 >=20 > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============0319350083927854447==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Aug 1 18:34:30 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF-West Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 11:34:27 -0700 Message-ID: <01ce01dae441$72029530$5607bf90$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5028115493196978433==" --===============5028115493196978433== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I was trying to buy tickets for VCF-West and the ticketing system (through CHM) seems to be down. Anyone have more info or an ETA on repairs? Thanks. -Ali --===============5028115493196978433==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 18:37:12 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF-West Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 11:36:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01ce01dae441$72029530$5607bf90$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2088754088241145199==" --===============2088754088241145199== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 11:34 AM Ali via cctalk wrote: > Hello All, > > I was trying to buy tickets for VCF-West and the ticketing system (through > CHM) seems to be down. Anyone have more info or an ETA on repairs? Thanks. > > -Ali > https://vcfed.org/contact-us/ --===============2088754088241145199==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Aug 1 18:41:19 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF-West Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 11:41:12 -0700 Message-ID: <01da01dae442$64c07580$2e416080$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7414626659945292253==" --===============7414626659945292253== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > https://vcfed.org/contact-us/ There doesn't seem to be an exact contact for VCF-West so I sent an email to = the general info box. Let's see if anyone responds. -Ali --===============7414626659945292253==-- From strick@yak.net Thu Aug 1 19:53:45 2024 From: StricK To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF-West Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 12:53:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01da01dae442$64c07580$2e416080$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1136892873744507833==" --===============1136892873744507833== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having been to VCF-West many times in the past, I'd be very surprised if you can't just show up Friday or Saturday and buy tickets there at the CHM. I always did. (Exhibitors are setting up today and that probably consumes all the time of the volunteers that make this event possible. So if you get no reply, that's probably why.) seeya there! -- strick --===============1136892873744507833==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 20:06:13 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF-West Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 16:05:55 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01da01dae442$64c07580$2e416080$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8631543530885472273==" --===============8631543530885472273== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I asked a woman if she was dating anyone, and she said yes. So I said great, if you date anyone you'll date me then too On Thu, Aug 1, 2024, 2:41 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > https://vcfed.org/contact-us/ > > There doesn't seem to be an exact contact for VCF-West so I sent an email > to the general info box. Let's see if anyone responds. > > -Ali > > --===============8631543530885472273==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 20:28:19 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 15:28:01 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4946322793734290782==" --===============4946322793734290782== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amazing detail and story (feel bad snipping out). I remember some rumor about either NT or 2000 and a claim that Microsoft lost the source code, hence no more versions (maybe it was win 2000 since only 2 service packs?). Does anyone know if that was just Internet rumor of the times or was that factual? I felt that was part of the change of the OS going forward and being more of a hybrid of 98/NT which as others said, was a win for gaming and graphics support. A friend used to try to play games on NT 4.0, mostly either Warcraft and I think panzer general but I recall getting sound drivers to work was a chore. My friend base and i stuck with 98se for a long time but eventually migrated to either 2000 or XP but I honestly can't remember which we used longer. I know (before windows 2000), we all uninstalled windows ME and went back to 98se but that was due to performance issues with ME. On Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 8:53 AM cz via cctalk wrote: > Pretty much, though Windows2000 was a significant redesign over NT4. > > > --===============4946322793734290782==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Aug 1 20:32:10 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 20:31:58 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4913358497162253334==" --===============4913358497162253334== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Was 2000 called =E2=80=9CLonghorn=E2=80=9D internally? If so, the source code= for it escaped out onto the internet. You can still find it out there.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2024, at 13:28, John Herron via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAmazing detail and story (feel bad snipping out). >=20 > I remember some rumor about either NT or 2000 and a claim that Microsoft > lost the source code, hence no more versions (maybe it was win 2000 since > only 2 service packs?). Does anyone know if that was just Internet rumor of > the times or was that factual? >=20 > I felt that was part of the change of the OS going forward and being more > of a hybrid of 98/NT which as others said, was a win for gaming and > graphics support. >=20 > A friend used to try to play games on NT 4.0, mostly either Warcraft and I > think panzer general but I recall getting sound drivers to work was a > chore. My friend base and i stuck with 98se for a long time but eventually > migrated to either 2000 or XP but I honestly can't remember which we used > longer. I know (before windows 2000), we all uninstalled windows ME and > went back to 98se but that was due to performance issues with ME. >=20 >=20 >> On Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 8:53 AM cz via cctalk wrot= e: >>=20 >> Pretty much, though Windows2000 was a significant redesign over NT4. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 --===============4913358497162253334==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Aug 1 20:40:25 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF-West Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 13:40:18 -0700 Message-ID: <01f501dae453$083720a0$18a561e0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5728062267501469744==" --===============5728062267501469744== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Having been to VCF-West many times in the past, >I'd be very surprised if you can't just show up Friday or Saturday and buy t= ickets there at the CHM. >I always did. >(Exhibitors are setting up today and that probably consumes all the time of = the >volunteers that make this event possible. So if you get no reply, that's p= robably why.) >seeya there! Thanks. Yeah that was my backup plan as I had seen sales on site before as we= ll. For anyone else following the thread the link on the vcfed.org site given= here: https://vcfed.org/2024/06/16/vcf-west-2024-tickets-available-now/ is i= ncorrect. The correct working link is: https://connect.computerhistory.org/events/1ffceb98-f556-df49-f011-424756803a= ab See (some of you) this weekend.... -Ali --===============5728062267501469744==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Aug 1 21:44:27 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF-West Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 14:44:21 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01f501dae453$083720a0$18a561e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2791610397662549129==" --===============2791610397662549129== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-west/ says: "The full schedule of speakers and show attractions will be posted at a later date. "Special attractions: ** Details will be added as they are finalized. Please check back for updates! **" Q: Will a schedule of speakers be posted? --===============2791610397662549129==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Aug 1 22:02:08 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF-West Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 15:01:57 -0700 Message-ID: <0LdHBn-1rs5eo29AX-00oEaN@mrelay.perfora.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1026328032873835453==" --===============1026328032873835453== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Q: Will a schedule of speakers be posted?Fred,Try https://vcfed.org/events/vi= ntage-computer-festival-west/vcf-west-exhibits/-Ali --===============1026328032873835453==-- From mphuff@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 23:07:17 2024 From: Michael Huff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 15:06:58 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218154CA9B644372AC36D06AE4B22=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6192689491425895639==" --===============6192689491425895639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm pretty sure it was Vista that was codenamed 'Longhorn', wasn't it? 4chan leaked a bunch of code to 2000/XP with a spattering of NT 3.5 (rumour goes)[1]. Then Microsoft apparently painted themselves into a corner making Vista and reset the whole thing based on 2003's code base. [1] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/working-windows-xp-source-code-posted-to-4c= han-update [2] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/testers-dig-up-an-early-2003-era-vers= ion-of-windows-vistas-aero-theme/ On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Was 2000 called =E2=80=9CLonghorn=E2=80=9D internally? If so, the source co= de for it > escaped out onto the internet. You can still find it out there. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 1, 2024, at 13:28, John Herron via cctalk > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFAmazing detail and story (feel bad snipping out). > > > > I remember some rumor about either NT or 2000 and a claim that Microsoft > > lost the source code, hence no more versions (maybe it was win 2000 since > > only 2 service packs?). Does anyone know if that was just Internet rumor > of > > the times or was that factual? > > > > I felt that was part of the change of the OS going forward and being more > > of a hybrid of 98/NT which as others said, was a win for gaming and > > graphics support. > > > > A friend used to try to play games on NT 4.0, mostly either Warcraft and > I > > think panzer general but I recall getting sound drivers to work was a > > chore. My friend base and i stuck with 98se for a long time but > eventually > > migrated to either 2000 or XP but I honestly can't remember which we used > > longer. I know (before windows 2000), we all uninstalled windows ME and > > went back to 98se but that was due to performance issues with ME. > > > > > >> On Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 8:53 AM cz via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> Pretty much, though Windows2000 was a significant redesign over NT4. > >> > >> > >> > --===============6192689491425895639==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 1 23:16:00 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 16:15:46 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8398507902505690246==" --===============8398507902505690246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2024-08-01 at 15:06 -0800, Michael Huff via cctalk wrote: > I'm pretty sure it was Vista that was codenamed 'Longhorn', wasn't > it? > 4chan leaked a bunch of code to 2000/XP with a spattering of NT 3.5 > (rumour > goes)[1]. Then Microsoft apparently painted themselves into a corner > making > Vista and reset the whole thing based on 2003's code base. >=20 > [1] > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/working-windows-xp-source-code-posted-to-= 4chan-update I remember a columnist in Computerworld or PC Week or some other 1990's trade rag (Spencer Katt?) remarking that "Using Windows NT is like having a child help you." --===============8398507902505690246==-- From roycetaft@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 23:29:05 2024 From: Royce Taft To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 16:28:48 -0700 Message-ID: <8A65B81B-ED76-43F8-B68A-E9DEFA3CDB7F@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1279905147951221319==" --===============1279905147951221319== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wasn=E2=80=99t Vista =E2=80=9CMojave=E2=80=9D? > On Aug 1, 2024, at 16:07, Michael Huff via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI'm pretty sure it was Vista that was codenamed 'Longhorn', wasn't= it? > 4chan leaked a bunch of code to 2000/XP with a spattering of NT 3.5 (rumour > goes)[1]. Then Microsoft apparently painted themselves into a corner making > Vista and reset the whole thing based on 2003's code base. >=20 > [1] > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/working-windows-xp-source-code-posted-to-= 4chan-update > [2] > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/testers-dig-up-an-early-2003-era-ve= rsion-of-windows-vistas-aero-theme/ >=20 >> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >> Was 2000 called =E2=80=9CLonghorn=E2=80=9D internally? If so, the source c= ode for it >> escaped out onto the internet. You can still find it out there. >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>> On Aug 1, 2024, at 13:28, John Herron via cctalk >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFAmazing detail and story (feel bad snipping out). >>>=20 >>> I remember some rumor about either NT or 2000 and a claim that Microsoft >>> lost the source code, hence no more versions (maybe it was win 2000 since >>> only 2 service packs?). Does anyone know if that was just Internet rumor >> of >>> the times or was that factual? >>>=20 >>> I felt that was part of the change of the OS going forward and being more >>> of a hybrid of 98/NT which as others said, was a win for gaming and >>> graphics support. >>>=20 >>> A friend used to try to play games on NT 4.0, mostly either Warcraft and >> I >>> think panzer general but I recall getting sound drivers to work was a >>> chore. My friend base and i stuck with 98se for a long time but >> eventually >>> migrated to either 2000 or XP but I honestly can't remember which we used >>> longer. I know (before windows 2000), we all uninstalled windows ME and >>> went back to 98se but that was due to performance issues with ME. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 8:53 AM cz via cctalk >> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Pretty much, though Windows2000 was a significant redesign over NT4. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 --===============1279905147951221319==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Aug 2 09:41:52 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 10:41:36 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218154CA9B644372AC36D06AE4B22=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4609078449079118030==" --===============4609078449079118030== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 1 Aug 2024 at 21:32, Wayne S via cctalk wro= te: > > Was 2000 called =E2=80=9CLonghorn=E2=80=9D internally? If so, the source co= de for it escaped out onto the internet. You can still find it out there. No. The planned successor to "Whistler" (NT 5.1, sold as WinXP) was "Blackcomb", the planned NT 6. After over-running several years, MS started planning an intermediary release, based on the Windows 2003 Server kernel, codenamed "Longhorn". In the end "Longhorn" became Windows Vista and "Blackcomb" was cancelled and never became a product. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Windows_Vista --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4609078449079118030==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Aug 2 09:54:03 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 10:53:47 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8A65B81B-ED76-43F8-B68A-E9DEFA3CDB7F@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1744886235273633273==" --===============1744886235273633273== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2 Aug 2024 at 00:29, Royce Taft via cctalk wrote: > > Wasn’t Vista “Mojave”? No. That is Mac OS X 10.14. Apple used big cats for a decade or more: Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Tiger, Leopard, Snow Leopard, Lion, Mountain Lion. Then it ran out of cats. It switched to iconic places in North America. Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan, Sierra, High Sierra, Mojave, Catalina, Big Sur, Monterey, Ventura, Sonoma, Sequoia. That's from memory. I may have missed some or got the wrong order. After it started using codenames in marketing, there were different _internal_ codenames as well. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1744886235273633273==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri Aug 2 16:07:33 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 11:07:15 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5428098622182866599==" --===============5428098622182866599== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 9:52 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > And - any thoughts on "digital computer" vs analog? I'm aware of early > Heathkit analog computers. Is it fair to say quantum computing is sort of > a return back to analog computing? Quanta Magazine just published this which may be of interest. https://www.quantamagazine.org/what-is-analog-computing-20240802/ --===============5428098622182866599==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Sat Aug 3 00:57:20 2024 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF West Aug 2 & 3 - Mountain View, CA Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 17:57:05 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2472356810672383726==" --===============2472356810672383726== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Info here: https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-west/ Tickets are available here Speakers List Exhibitors List Program Book Take care! Jeff Brace --===============2472356810672383726==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Aug 3 02:52:42 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF West Aug 2 & 3 - Mountain View, CA Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 19:52:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0156518740591292634==" --===============0156518740591292634== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Today was great! Yes, they do sell tickets at the door. but, . . . They don't take CASH! "Legal tender for all debts public or private", but they don't take it! Lots of great exhibits There was a substantial pile of Dell 5150 and 5160 laptops on the "FREE" table. Dell 5150 is unrelated to IBM 5150, nor to a 3-day hold. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0156518740591292634==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Sat Aug 3 02:56:58 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF West Aug 2 & 3 - Mountain View, CA Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 19:56:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2285623441579298740==" --===============2285623441579298740== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Aug 2, 2024, 7:52 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > "Legal tender for all debts public or private", but they don't take it! > Correct, they don't, so there never was a debt. --===============2285623441579298740==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Aug 3 06:18:48 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF West Aug 2 & 3 - Mountain View, CA Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 23:18:32 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5905140825874884018==" --===============5905140825874884018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Aug 2, 2024, 7:52 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Today was great! > > Yes, they do sell tickets at the door. > > but, . . . > They don't take CASH! > "Legal tender for all debts public or private", but they don't take it! > > Lots of great exhibits > > There was a substantial pile of Dell 5150 and 5160 laptops on the "FREE" > table. Dell 5150 is unrelated to IBM 5150, nor to a 3-day hold. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com I saw you, but you didn't hear me 😞 Sellam --===============5905140825874884018==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Aug 3 14:17:12 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2024 07:16:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0662717612063384565==" --===============0662717612063384565== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 2, 2024, 10:03=E2=80=AFAM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > Then it ran out of cats. It switched to iconic places in North America. > > Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan, Sierra, High Sierra, Mojave, > Catalina, Big Sur, Monterey, Ventura, Sonoma, Sequoia. > Specifically, place names of California. Sellam --===============0662717612063384565==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sat Aug 3 17:09:14 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2024 18:08:56 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5233373700369575496==" --===============5233373700369575496== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 at 15:17, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > > > Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan, Sierra, High Sierra, Mojave, > > Catalina, Big Sur, Monterey, Ventura, Sonoma, Sequoia. > > > > Specifically, place names of California. Yes, that's what I remembered, but I wasn't sure. Never been there, not remotely familiar with the geography. TBH I thought El Cap was in Yosemite and Yosemite was in Wyoming, but on Googling, I think I was mixing up Yosemite and Yellowstone. TBH I never consciously realised before that they were 2 different places. Not my country, not my continent. I've lived in Africa, 3 different countries in Europe, spent a lot of time and speak the languages of 4 more, but America is far off and largely unknown to me -- a frightening semi-theocracy with guns and no healthcare. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5233373700369575496==-- From kirkbdavis@me.com Mon Aug 5 02:22:10 2024 From: Kirk Davis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 19:13:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3711122045464514855==" --===============3711122045464514855== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent from my iPad > > Not my country, not my continent. I've lived in Africa, 3 different > countries in Europe, spent a lot of time and speak the languages of 4 > more, but America is far off and largely unknown to me -- a > frightening semi-theocracy with guns and no healthcare. And in some cases, armed heathcare. --===============3711122045464514855==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Aug 5 03:47:50 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 20:47:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5533283609890848311==" --===============5533283609890848311== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Specifically, place names of California. On Sat, 3 Aug 2024, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Yes, that's what I remembered, but I wasn't sure. Never been there, > not remotely familiar with the geography. > > TBH I thought El Cap was in Yosemite and Yosemite was in Wyoming, but > on Googling, I think I was mixing up Yosemite and Yellowstone. TBH I > never consciously realised before that they were 2 different places. > > Not my country, not my continent. I've lived in Africa, 3 different > countries in Europe, spent a lot of time and speak the languages of 4 > more, but America is far off and largely unknown to me -- a > frightening semi-theocracy with guns and no healthcare. Well, you should come visit, some time. There's a lot to see. --===============5533283609890848311==-- From ik@sjmulder.nl Mon Aug 5 13:26:24 2024 From: "Sijmen J. Mulder" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:20:23 +0200 Message-ID: <20240805152023.a098e9f0a028375d71e81c38@sjmulder.nl> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6236039953136667322==" --===============6236039953136667322== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 22:41:20 +0100 (BST) "Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk" wrote: > > this is linux, right? so I could have one be kde, one gnome and maybe a = third xfce? might try playing with it someday, or good if I want to transiti= on gradually to a different UI, but unless=20 > > one of them could be like the win 3.1 UI, not being unable to join them t= ogether and drag individual app windows from one physical screen to another p= robably makes better to all be the same UI with joined screens. >=20 > With Linux you can definitely have different window managers on different = > X11 instances running on different screens within the same machine. I did = > this before (running two instances of Gnome on :0 and :1 respectively, and = > olvwm on :2) and it's only down to the individual window managers whether=20 > they are happy about it or not. You can have some remote screens such as=20 > via XDMCP as well, each using its own window manager. I have mixed experiences with this with applications or environments interfering with each other. E.g. it'd be impossible to launch the same application in two sessions. It would be nice if applications were a bit more supportive of such scenarios and the virtual terminal thing a bit more flexible. I'd like to be able to remote into a machine and choose to either start a new graphical session (like SSH) or attach to an existing one (like what 'tmux a' does). It's probably possible to hack something together with a VNC X server and then also connecting to it locally, but solutions like that come with compromises like performance. Sijmen --===============6236039953136667322==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Mon Aug 5 14:51:49 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Needed: RL01/RL02 Right Side Inner Rail Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 14:51:38 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4313616907220546674==" --===============4313616907220546674== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a RL02 that someone drilled the pop rivets on and removed one of the i= nner rails. I have no idea why -- this RL02 sat on a shelf above a corporate = cab, so in their application I guess it didn't need it, but they left the oth= er rail on! I do not have the missing inner rail, it was nowhere to be found = when I purchased the system. I need to find a replacement so that I can rack = the drive, as I have the outer rack rails for it. I would like to purchase/trade for/whatever the inner rail, or a junk parts b= ucket RL drive. Thanks, Jonathan --===============4313616907220546674==-- From maxwell@buffalo.edu Mon Aug 5 18:24:23 2024 From: John Maxwell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 13:28:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2039885595638913773==" --===============2039885595638913773== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I recall, it was W2K which allowed you to change the IP without reboot - o= ne of my favorite features of that OS (and beyond). -----Original Message----- From: Tony Jones via cctalk =20 Sent: Wednesday, 31 July, 2024 01:26 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Tony Jones Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS On Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 10:14=E2=80=AFPM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > I remember using 3.1, 4.0, and 2000. As I recall, I loved the=20 > stability of 3.1, but the UI was old and outdated, especially when 95 came = out. > 4.0 offered the nicer UI, but the driver situation was still a=20 > problem, I forget at which NT release you could do advanced things like changing the I= P address without needing to reboot :-). --===============2039885595638913773==-- From maxwell@buffalo.edu Mon Aug 5 18:24:29 2024 From: John Maxwell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 13:55:05 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3280976834775904720==" --===============3280976834775904720== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, my friend, the guns are the only thing that keep us free from tyranny! -----Original Message----- From: Liam Proven via cctalk =20 Sent: Saturday, 3 August, 2024 13:09 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Liam Proven Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Yes, that's what I remembered, but I wasn't sure. Never been there, not remot= ely familiar with the geography. TBH I thought El Cap was in Yosemite and Yosemite was in Wyoming, but on Goog= ling, I think I was mixing up Yosemite and Yellowstone. TBH I never conscious= ly realised before that they were 2 different places. Not my country, not my continent. I've lived in Africa, 3 different countries= in Europe, spent a lot of time and speak the languages of 4 more, but Americ= a is far off and largely unknown to me -- a frightening semi-theocracy with g= uns and no healthcare. -- Liam Proven=20 --===============3280976834775904720==-- From julf@julf.com Mon Aug 5 19:23:00 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 21:22:50 +0200 Message-ID: <8f14f773-3969-4c9b-be4f-6248194468eb@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR15MB482877A8DE85D3B765E09EC3B3BE2=40CO1PR15MB?= =?utf-8?q?4828=2Enamprd15=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7257058000164483679==" --===============7257058000164483679== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/08/2024 15:55, John Maxwell via cctalk wrote: > Well, my friend, the guns are the only thing that keep us free from tyranny! Voting and proper checks and balances (broken by the current US Supreme Court) is what keeps us free from tyranny, not guns. Julf --===============7257058000164483679==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Aug 5 19:27:00 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:26:49 -0400 Message-ID: <09B1F935-550B-47E5-A3AC-9AAB1452509D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <8f14f773-3969-4c9b-be4f-6248194468eb@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2546918413356952791==" --===============2546918413356952791== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could we please keep politics off this list? I could argue at length about t= his topic but I'm not going to, this list is not the forum for that. paul > On Aug 5, 2024, at 3:22 PM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 05/08/2024 15:55, John Maxwell via cctalk wrote: >> Well, my friend, the guns are the only thing that keep us free from tyrann= y! >=20 > Voting and proper checks and balances (broken by the current US Supreme > Court) is what keeps us free from tyranny, not guns. >=20 > Julf --===============2546918413356952791==-- From drb@msu.edu Mon Aug 5 19:34:42 2024 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:34:36 -0400 Message-ID: <20240805193436.B31CA520F7E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <09B1F935-550B-47E5-A3AC-9AAB1452509D@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1655152337182673238==" --===============1655152337182673238== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Could we please keep politics off this list? I could argue at length > about this topic but I'm not going to, this list is not the forum for > that. *clears throat* Yes, what Paul said, please. De ᕙ( ︡’︡ 益 ’︠)ง▬▬█ --===============1655152337182673238==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Mon Aug 5 19:39:58 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:34:53 -0400 Message-ID: <343500613.2982819.1722886493401@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <09B1F935-550B-47E5-A3AC-9AAB1452509D@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0330777268936351110==" --===============0330777268936351110== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 08/05/2024 3:26 PM EDT Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: > > > Could we please keep politics off this list? I could argue at length about = this topic but I'm not going to, this list is not the forum for that. > > paul > I second that. Will --===============0330777268936351110==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Aug 6 02:32:50 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Anyone near Los alamos NM? Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:32:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5338859487168575597==" --===============5338859487168575597== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computer rescue opportunity came in through vintagecomputer.net. northstar horizon. Contact me through vintagecomputer.net use contact form, ask for details. Thanks Bill --===============5338859487168575597==-- From mar60bra@googlemail.com Tue Aug 6 13:00:53 2024 From: mar60bra@googlemail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for PSS RAM65 S100 Manual Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 14:23:18 +0200 Message-ID: <006401dae7fb$6bc103b0$43430b10$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2538331588543476000==" --===============2538331588543476000== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Philip, I have found your inquiry on https://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-March/005247.html. I have a Problem Solver Systems (PSS) RAM65 card that I would like to get working in my IMSAI 8080, but I can not find any manuals for it online. Does anyone on the list have a manual they could possibly scan for me. Much thanks in advance. Philip I have the same board but now information. In meantime did you get a manual or information about the RAM65? It would be glad if you can chair the information to me. Best regards Martin (Germany) --===============2538331588543476000==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Tue Aug 6 13:10:37 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] RR Auctions Apple Auction Aug 22 2024 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 09:10:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5387508214331187962==" --===============5387508214331187962== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was a discussion about RR Auctions and this is their upcoming Aug 2024 auction https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/details/698-steve-jobs-and-the-apple-compu= ter-revolution/ The focus is clearly on Apple and for Apple collectors, there are some non Apple related items. There is a PDP8 for sale as an example https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/lot-detail/349021906984242-digital-equipme= nt-corporation-dec-pdp-8-minicomputer-collection/?cat=3D0 Someone recently asked if people collect magazines and I see some for sale as well. --===============5387508214331187962==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Tue Aug 6 14:14:18 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 10:14:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0212835178624431570==" --===============0212835178624431570== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good then please keep your opinions to yourself on this and stop trying to start issues. On Sat, Aug 3, 2024 at 1:18 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > Not my country, not my continent. I've lived in Africa, 3 different > countries in Europe, spent a lot of time and speak the languages of 4 > more, but America is far off and largely unknown to me -- a > frightening semi-theocracy with guns and no healthcare. > --===============0212835178624431570==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Aug 7 00:09:03 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Forgotten machines Discord broken Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 00:08:54 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0741618446388870066==" --===============0741618446388870066== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Someone posted something on the =E2=80=9C forgotten machines=E2=80=9D discord= that bonks the iphone discord app. Can=E2=80=99t even run it, comes up for a= second then disappears. Posting here because i can=E2=80=99t run discord so = maybe someone can help? Can someone take a look? Sent from my iPhone --===============0741618446388870066==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Aug 7 00:10:22 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Forgotten machines Discord broken Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 00:10:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218132E13E3D4E128ED425D3E4B82=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5923209840705737583==" --===============5923209840705737583== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =E2=80=9CRabbit-Trails=E2=80=9D channel. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 6, 2024, at 17:09, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFSomeone posted something on the =E2=80=9C forgotten machines=E2=80= =9D discord that bonks the iphone discord app. Can=E2=80=99t even run it, com= es up for a second then disappears. Posting here because i can=E2=80=99t run = discord so maybe someone can help? > Can someone take a look? >=20 > Sent from my iPhone --===============5923209840705737583==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Aug 7 00:15:16 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Forgotten machines Discord broken Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 00:15:10 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21814DC46A8C92C29407E29AE4B82=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4720259293189999363==" --===============4720259293189999363== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Had to get an update from the app store to fix. In case other people have the= same issue. I think it was an animated gif that the older version couldn=E2=80=99t handle. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 6, 2024, at 17:10, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF=E2=80=9CRabbit-Trails=E2=80=9D channel. > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Aug 6, 2024, at 17:09, Wayne S wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFSomeone posted something on the =E2=80=9C forgotten machines=E2= =80=9D discord that bonks the iphone discord app. Can=E2=80=99t even run it, = comes up for a second then disappears. Posting here because i can=E2=80=99t r= un discord so maybe someone can help? >> Can someone take a look? >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone --===============4720259293189999363==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Aug 7 00:30:43 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Forgotten machines Discord broken Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 20:30:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21815A30B814D6F1DD727B52E4B82=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2093682829947441718==" --===============2093682829947441718== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow. It's not as if animated GIF files are a novelty -- they are way older t= han Discord. Then again, QA is not a regular software development practice anymore. paul > On Aug 6, 2024, at 8:15 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > Had to get an update from the app store to fix. In case other people have t= he same issue. > I think it was an animated gif that the older version couldn=E2=80=99t hand= le. >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Aug 6, 2024, at 17:10, Wayne S wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF=E2=80=9CRabbit-Trails=E2=80=9D channel. >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>> On Aug 6, 2024, at 17:09, Wayne S wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFSomeone posted something on the =E2=80=9C forgotten machines=E2= =80=9D discord that bonks the iphone discord app. Can=E2=80=99t even run it, = comes up for a second then disappears. Posting here because i can=E2=80=99t r= un discord so maybe someone can help? >>> Can someone take a look? >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone --===============2093682829947441718==-- From maddox@harlie.org Wed Aug 7 06:16:39 2024 From: maddox@harlie.org To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 11:31:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8A65B81B-ED76-43F8-B68A-E9DEFA3CDB7F@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0001142966392117593==" --===============0001142966392117593== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 01.08.2024 16:28, Royce Taft via cctalk wrote: > Wasn’t Vista “Mojave”? As others noted, "Mojave" was the name of a MacOS release. There was, however, an ad campaign that Microsoft ran in an attempt to counter the bad press that Windows Vista was getting at the time of its launch. In it, they showed folks who had been invited to try out a new future version of Windows in development called "Windows Mojave". After they had seen a demo and made positive comments about it, it was then revealed that "Windows Mojave" was actually Vista. --Bill --===============0001142966392117593==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Aug 7 12:55:50 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 08:55:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1902715089086180505==" --===============1902715089086180505== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/6/2024 2:31 PM, maddox--- via cctalk wrote: > On 01.08.2024 16:28, Royce Taft via cctalk wrote: >> Wasn’t Vista “Mojave”? > > As others noted, "Mojave" was the name of a MacOS release.  There was, > however, an ad campaign that Microsoft ran in an attempt to counter the > bad press that Windows Vista was getting at the time of its launch.  In > it, they showed folks who had been invited to try out a new future > version of Windows in development called "Windows Mojave".  After they > had seen a demo and made positive comments about it, it was then > revealed that "Windows Mojave" was actually Vista. > I keep seeing all these bad comments about Vista. Just what was supposed to be wrong with it? I ran it for more than a decade and only stopped when MS deliberately broke it with the final update. It was a hell of a lot better than the crap that followed it. bill --===============1902715089086180505==-- From mark.romberg@gmail.com Wed Aug 7 13:38:16 2024 From: mark audacity romberg To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 08:38:00 -0500 Message-ID: <034D0FC2-6D23-49DA-A706-F8A5347E86B3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8PR06MB9792173E6FF9BFDDC8D61CBEEDB82=40LV8PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?9792=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1135122955023371506==" --===============1135122955023371506== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Slow, code bloat, ate resources. There is no measurable or even reasonably-arguable way that Vista was superio= r to 10. Actually, I can=E2=80=99t think of any way that it was superior to 7, or to 8= once you turned the touch-enabled Start Menu off. --===============1135122955023371506==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Aug 7 13:53:11 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RR Auctions Apple Auction Aug 22 2024 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 09:52:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3461585854163851503==" --===============3461585854163851503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wish the pdp8 lot photos were more targeted to the 8 itself. No pick of the system extended from the rails, no pick of the core memory, no pick of the backplane On Wed, Aug 7, 2024, 7:28 AM Christian Liendo via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > There was a discussion about RR Auctions and this is their upcoming > Aug 2024 auction > > > https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/details/698-steve-jobs-and-the-apple-com= puter-revolution/ > > The focus is clearly on Apple and for Apple collectors, there are some > non Apple related items. > > There is a PDP8 for sale as an example > > > https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/lot-detail/349021906984242-digital-equip= ment-corporation-dec-pdp-8-minicomputer-collection/?cat=3D0 > > Someone recently asked if people collect magazines and I see some for > sale as well. > --===============3461585854163851503==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Aug 7 14:00:51 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RR Auctions Apple Auction Aug 22 2024 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 10:00:21 -0400 Message-ID: <849AC025-1D6A-4F64-B6D4-E55DEA09C5B8@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5811313320985903343==" --===============5811313320985903343== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just below the photos is a link to "a detailed PDF" -- which is indeed quite = detailed, including a list of all the pieces, all the spare FlipChip boards, = all the paper tapes and documents. Looks like quite a find; if I were at all= a PDP-8 person I'd be seriously interested. paul > On Aug 7, 2024, at 9:52 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I wish the pdp8 lot photos were more targeted to the 8 itself. No pick of > the system extended from the rails, no pick of the core memory, no pick of > the backplane >=20 > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024, 7:28 AM Christian Liendo via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> There was a discussion about RR Auctions and this is their upcoming >> Aug 2024 auction >>=20 >>=20 >> https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/details/698-steve-jobs-and-the-apple-co= mputer-revolution/ >>=20 >> The focus is clearly on Apple and for Apple collectors, there are some >> non Apple related items. >>=20 >> There is a PDP8 for sale as an example >>=20 >>=20 >> https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/lot-detail/349021906984242-digital-equi= pment-corporation-dec-pdp-8-minicomputer-collection/?cat=3D0 >>=20 >> Someone recently asked if people collect magazines and I see some for >> sale as well. >>=20 --===============5811313320985903343==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Wed Aug 7 15:00:24 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 16:00:06 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <034D0FC2-6D23-49DA-A706-F8A5347E86B3@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6870383035043689062==" --===============6870383035043689062== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i think it was strongly disliked by many non-technical users because it was the first one where MS tried to lock down some admin functions, forcing the users to confirm or enter an admin password to continue. This isn't necessarily bad but it was rather hamfisted and disliked. Technical reasons for disliking it may have been different. It appeared after I had abandoned their products and I never had to deal with it. On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 2:48 PM mark audacity romberg via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Slow, code bloat, ate resources. > > There is no measurable or even reasonably-arguable way that Vista was > superior to 10. > > Actually, I can’t think of any way that it was superior to 7, or to 8 once > you turned the touch-enabled Start Menu off. > > > --===============6870383035043689062==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Aug 7 16:31:53 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RR Auctions Apple Auction Aug 22 2024 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 12:31:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <849AC025-1D6A-4F64-B6D4-E55DEA09C5B8@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7540904870539740195==" --===============7540904870539740195== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did read that, I just wish there was more picture info. b On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 11:18=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Just below the photos is a link to "a detailed PDF" -- which is indeed > quite detailed, including a list of all the pieces, all the spare FlipChip > boards, all the paper tapes and documents. Looks like quite a find; if I > were at all a PDP-8 person I'd be seriously interested. > > paul > > > On Aug 7, 2024, at 9:52 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I wish the pdp8 lot photos were more targeted to the 8 itself. No pick > of > > the system extended from the rails, no pick of the core memory, no pick > of > > the backplane > > > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024, 7:28 AM Christian Liendo via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> There was a discussion about RR Auctions and this is their upcoming > >> Aug 2024 auction > >> > >> > >> > https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/details/698-steve-jobs-and-the-apple-com= puter-revolution/ > >> > >> The focus is clearly on Apple and for Apple collectors, there are some > >> non Apple related items. > >> > >> There is a PDP8 for sale as an example > >> > >> > >> > https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/lot-detail/349021906984242-digital-equip= ment-corporation-dec-pdp-8-minicomputer-collection/?cat=3D0 > >> > >> Someone recently asked if people collect magazines and I see some for > >> sale as well. > >> > > --===============7540904870539740195==-- From commodorejohn@gmail.com Wed Aug 7 17:15:50 2024 From: John To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 10:15:38 -0700 Message-ID: <20240807101538.00004f29@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <172305000753.2847341.1417145535613126402@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0265400219674274353==" --===============0265400219674274353== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Adrian Godwin > > i think it was strongly disliked by many non-technical users because > it was the first one where MS tried to lock down some admin > functions, forcing the users to confirm or enter an admin password to > continue. This isn't necessarily bad but it was rather hamfisted and > disliked. This, 100%. On top of the usual "chews up more memory for not that much more functionality" issue that's always the case, the initial release of UAC was *spectacularly* braindead, to the point where the simplest way to make Vista usable was to disable it entirely - and once that habit was ingrained in users, they persisted on down the line, even well into Win10's lifetime. Windows really did need improved security/ permissions features, but their rollout was such a bungle that we ended up with a world where millions of people ran *less* secure by choice, because it just wasn't worth the pain. --===============0265400219674274353==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Aug 7 18:55:46 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 18:55:37 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2192346155172939311==" --===============2192346155172939311== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Microsoft changed the way drivers worked and so you needed new drivers. Many = people had hardware that didn=E2=80=99t work after upgrading to Vista so that= and eveything said by others in this list contributed to the hatred. It was = a botched rollout that Microsoft continues to do to this day.=20 Nadella really needs to get a handle on testing.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 7, 2024, at 08:00, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFi think it was strongly disliked by many non-technical users becau= se it was > the first one where MS tried to lock down some admin functions, forcing the > users to confirm or enter an admin password to continue. This isn't > necessarily bad but it was rather hamfisted and disliked. >=20 > Technical reasons for disliking it may have been different. It appeared > after I had abandoned their products and I never had to deal with it. >=20 >> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 2:48=E2=80=AFPM mark audacity romberg via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> Slow, code bloat, ate resources. >>=20 >> There is no measurable or even reasonably-arguable way that Vista was >> superior to 10. >>=20 >> Actually, I can=E2=80=99t think of any way that it was superior to 7, or t= o 8 once >> you turned the touch-enabled Start Menu off. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 --===============2192346155172939311==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Aug 7 19:28:10 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF West Aug 2 & 3 - Mountain View, CA Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 12:28:15 -0700 Message-ID: <006e01dae8ff$f4584120$dd08c360$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7925762834091528890==" --===============7925762834091528890== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well I managed to make it to the 2nd day of VCF-West. Very nice. I haven't be= en to many of them (this was my third one) but by far this was the best, and = at least to me, most heavily attended one I had seen. The age group of partic= ipants was also significantly different. Lots of younger folks, couples doing= dates, and kids. The exhibits were also really interesting a bit Mac heavy b= ut that is understandable. For those that went anybody have pictures up yet? -Ali --===============7925762834091528890==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Wed Aug 7 19:46:27 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 12:46:20 -0700 Message-ID: <66b3cf0d.170a0220.84c1b.73f4@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2115115706157059047==" --===============2115115706157059047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi there,Haven't had much time for vintage computers due to my job dealing wi= th new ones, but the odd evening I have been working on PCB replica projects.= One of them is for the MAI Jolt.=C2=A0 I recently picked up alsome NOS 6530-0= 04s, and thought it'd be a fun replica to try.=C2=A0 I have completed the bac= kside in KiCAD by tracing photos of the board i found online, but unfortunate= ly the only decent photo I was able to find of the top side has components in= stalled, and I am not good with electrical guesswork.I don't know exactly how= the JOLT was originally sold (kit? Assembled?) but I'm thinking if MAI were = like most pioneers then they almost certainly would have provided a schematic= to end users for modifications and troubleshooting.Does anyone know if such = a thing exists?=C2=A0 I've been searching the usual places without success.Or= if anyone out there has a bare board (I know, I know heh).. and wouldn't min= d sending a photo or two..BradSent from my Galaxy --===============2115115706157059047==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Aug 7 20:35:26 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 16:35:21 -0400 Message-ID: <856698657.3309685.1723062921267@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <66b3cf0d.170a0220.84c1b.73f4@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1006912447652606991==" --===============1006912447652606991== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 08/07/2024 3:46 PM EDT brad via cctalk wrote: > > > Hi there,Haven't had much time for vintage computers due to my job dealing = with new ones, but the odd evening I have been working on PCB replica project= s.One of them is for the MAI Jolt. I recently picked up alsome NOS 6530-004s,= and thought it'd be a fun replica to try. I have completed the backside in K= iCAD by tracing photos of the board i found online, but unfortunately the onl= y decent photo I was able to find of the top side has components installed, a= nd I am not good with electrical guesswork.I don't know exactly how the JOLT = was originally sold (kit? Assembled?) but I'm thinking if MAI were like most = pioneers then they almost certainly would have provided a schematic to end us= ers for modifications and troubleshooting.Does anyone know if such a thing ex= ists? I've been searching the usual places without success.Or if anyone out t= here has a bare board (I know, I know heh).. and wouldn't mind sending a phot= o or two..BradSent from my Galaxy Maybe reach out to Ray Holt, the designer. https://mississippirobotics.org/about-mississippi-robotics-mechatronics/ Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============1006912447652606991==-- From mphuff@gmail.com Wed Aug 7 20:47:57 2024 From: Michael Huff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 12:47:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8PR06MB9792173E6FF9BFDDC8D61CBEEDB82=40LV8PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?9792=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1027777729990419336==" --===============1027777729990419336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:55 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 8/6/2024 2:31 PM, maddox--- via cctalk wrote: > > On 01.08.2024 16:28, Royce Taft via cctalk wrote: > >> Wasn’t Vista “Mojave”? > > > > As others noted, "Mojave" was the name of a MacOS release. There was, > > however, an ad campaign that Microsoft ran in an attempt to counter the > > bad press that Windows Vista was getting at the time of its launch. In > > it, they showed folks who had been invited to try out a new future > > version of Windows in development called "Windows Mojave". After they > > had seen a demo and made positive comments about it, it was then > > revealed that "Windows Mojave" was actually Vista. > > > > I keep seeing all these bad comments about Vista. Just what was > supposed to be wrong with it? I ran it for more than a decade > and only stopped when MS deliberately broke it with the final > update. It was a hell of a lot better than the crap that followed > it. > > bill > As others said; it was slower, bloated -Windows 7 felt like a vast improvement performance wise. That said, if you had it on a new (at the time) computer with appropriate drivers it was a pretty alright OS. In my opinion I like the look of it better than I liked 7 -even though I ran 7 for a lot longer. --===============1027777729990419336==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Wed Aug 7 22:45:50 2024 From: brad@techtimetraveller.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 15:45:43 -0700 Message-ID: <014c01dae91b$89114490$9b33cdb0$@techtimetraveller.com> In-Reply-To: <856698657.3309685.1723062921267@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4915815639597416464==" --===============4915815639597416464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks! I did try that but haven't heard back and don't want to pester him. -----Original Message----- From: Will Cooke via cctalk =20 Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2024 1:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: wrcooke(a)wrcooke.net Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt > On 08/07/2024 3:46 PM EDT brad via cctalk wrote: > > > Hi there,Haven't had much time for vintage computers due to my job dealing = with new ones, but the odd evening I have been working on PCB replica project= s.One of them is for the MAI Jolt. I recently picked up alsome NOS 6530-004s,= and thought it'd be a fun replica to try. I have completed the backside in K= iCAD by tracing photos of the board i found online, but unfortunately the onl= y decent photo I was able to find of the top side has components installed, a= nd I am not good with electrical guesswork.I don't know exactly how the JOLT = was originally sold (kit? Assembled?) but I'm thinking if MAI were like most = pioneers then they almost certainly would have provided a schematic to end us= ers for modifications and troubleshooting.Does anyone know if such a thing ex= ists? I've been searching the usual places without success.Or if anyone out t= here has a bare board (I know, I know heh).. and wouldn't mind sending a phot= o or two..BradSent from my Galaxy Maybe reach out to Ray Holt, the designer. https://mississippirobotics.org/about-mississippi-robotics-mechatronics/ Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============4915815639597416464==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Aug 7 23:41:55 2024 From: Wayne Sudol To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 16:41:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <014c01dae91b$89114490$9b33cdb0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5897862414980265032==" --===============5897862414980265032== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have you seen this page. Has a few pictures from a real JOLT. http://retro.hansotten.nl/6502-sbc/jolt-and-super-jolt/jolt/ -----Original Message----- From: Brad H via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2024 3:46 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: brad(a)techtimetraveller.com Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt Thanks! I did try that but haven't heard back and don't want to pester him. -----Original Message----- From: Will Cooke via cctalk =20 Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2024 1:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: wrcooke(a)wrcooke.net Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt > On 08/07/2024 3:46 PM EDT brad via cctalk wrote: > > > Hi there,Haven't had much time for vintage computers due to my job dealing = with new ones, but the odd evening I have been working on PCB replica project= s.One of them is for the MAI Jolt. I recently picked up alsome NOS 6530-004s,= and thought it'd be a fun replica to try. I have completed the backside in K= iCAD by tracing photos of the board i found online, but unfortunately the onl= y decent photo I was able to find of the top side has components installed, a= nd I am not good with electrical guesswork.I don't know exactly how the JOLT = was originally sold (kit? Assembled?) but I'm thinking if MAI were like most = pioneers then they almost certainly would have provided a schematic to end us= ers for modifications and troubleshooting.Does anyone know if such a thing ex= ists? I've been searching the usual places without success.Or if anyone out t= here has a bare board (I know, I know heh).. and wouldn't mind sending a phot= o or two..BradSent from my Galaxy Maybe reach out to Ray Holt, the designer. https://mississippirobotics.org/about-mississippi-robotics-mechatronics/ Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============5897862414980265032==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Aug 8 01:11:03 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 21:10:43 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <014c01dae91b$89114490$9b33cdb0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1352270155090377982==" --===============1352270155090377982== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit He is on linkedIn. There is scant info on the JOLT. You may have more luck with the super jolt. 6502 Micro Journal may have useful detail. I will.have access to the kennett classic library next weekk, and I can check then if you dont have any leads before that. I know there are at least some original Jolt materials but I dont recall specifically the schematic. I assume you saw the photos on vintagecomputer.net/MAI/ BILL On Wed, Aug 7, 2024, 6:45 PM Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Thanks! I did try that but haven't heard back and don't want to pester > him. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Will Cooke via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2024 1:35 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: wrcooke(a)wrcooke.net > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt > > > > > On 08/07/2024 3:46 PM EDT brad via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Hi there,Haven't had much time for vintage computers due to my job > dealing with new ones, but the odd evening I have been working on PCB > replica projects.One of them is for the MAI Jolt. I recently picked up > alsome NOS 6530-004s, and thought it'd be a fun replica to try. I have > completed the backside in KiCAD by tracing photos of the board i found > online, but unfortunately the only decent photo I was able to find of the > top side has components installed, and I am not good with electrical > guesswork.I don't know exactly how the JOLT was originally sold (kit? > Assembled?) but I'm thinking if MAI were like most pioneers then they > almost certainly would have provided a schematic to end users for > modifications and troubleshooting.Does anyone know if such a thing exists? > I've been searching the usual places without success.Or if anyone out there > has a bare board (I know, I know heh).. and wouldn't mind sending a photo > or two..BradSent from my Galaxy > > > Maybe reach out to Ray Holt, the designer. > https://mississippirobotics.org/about-mississippi-robotics-mechatronics/ > > Will > > Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for > children to be always and forever explaining things to them, > > Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince > > --===============1352270155090377982==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Thu Aug 8 01:15:25 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 18:15:18 -0700 Message-ID: <66b41c27.170a0220.23ff60.4651@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0001854481381712962==" --===============0001854481381712962== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Bill, appreciated.Yes I was surprised there wasn't a schematic archive= d somewhere.=C2=A0 I wonder how closely the JOLT follows other designs that u= sed the TIM chip.=C2=A0 Maybe thst might be enough to get me over the finish = line.There is of course the photo of the bare board in the JOLT kit in Byte, = Dec 1975 but unfortunately the resolution is way too low.If you find anything= , I'd be deeply apprcleciative.=C2=A0 If not.. I will do my best to guess my = way through it.=C2=A0=C2=A0BradSent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Bill Degnan via cctalk Date: 2024-08-07 6:11=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: "General Dis= cussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Bill Deg= nan Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout fo= r MAI Jolt He is on linkedIn.There is scant info on the JOLT.=C2=A0 You may h= ave more luck with the superjolt.=C2=A0 6502 Micro Journal may have useful de= tail.I will.have access to the kennett classic library next weekk, and I canc= heck then if you dont have any leads before that.=C2=A0 I know there are atle= ast some original Jolt materials but I dont recall specifically theschematic.= =C2=A0 I assume you saw the photos on vintagecomputer.net/MAI/BILLOn Wed, Aug= 7, 2024, 6:45 PM Brad H via cctalk wrote:> Thanks!= =C2=A0 I did try that but haven't heard back and don't want to pester> him.>>= -----Original Message-----> From: Will Cooke via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2024 1:35 PM> To: General Discussion: On-To= pic and Off-Topic Posts <> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>> Cc: wrcooke(a)wrcooke.ne= t> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt>>>> > On 08/07/= 2024 3:46 PM EDT brad via cctalk wrote:> >> >> > Hi= there,Haven't had much time for vintage computers due to my job> dealing wit= h new ones, but the odd evening I have been working on PCB> replica projects.= One of them is for the MAI Jolt. I recently picked up> alsome NOS 6530-004s, = and thought it'd be a fun replica to try. I have> completed the backside in K= iCAD by tracing photos of the board i found> online, but unfortunately the on= ly decent photo I was able to find of the> top side has components installed,= and I am not good with electrical> guesswork.I don't know exactly how the JO= LT was originally sold (kit?> Assembled?) but I'm thinking if MAI were like m= ost pioneers then they> almost certainly would have provided a schematic to e= nd users for> modifications and troubleshooting.Does anyone know if such a th= ing exists?> I've been searching the usual places without success.Or if anyon= e out there> has a bare board (I know, I know heh).. and wouldn't mind sendin= g a photo> or two..BradSent from my Galaxy>>> Maybe reach out to Ray Holt, th= e designer.> https://mississippirobotics.org/about-mississippi-robotics-mecha= tronics/>> Will>> Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is = tiresome for> children to be always and forever explaining things to them,>> = Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince>> --===============0001854481381712962==-- From maddox@harlie.org Thu Aug 8 05:31:32 2024 From: maddox@harlie.org To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 15:37:35 -0700 Message-ID: <7f8232871e14725420121030e1a3dbcd@harlie.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8PR06MB9792173E6FF9BFDDC8D61CBEEDB82=40LV8PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?9792=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6751727540543518180==" --===============6751727540543518180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 07.08.2024 05:55, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I keep seeing all these bad comments about Vista. Just what was > supposed to be wrong with it? I ran it for more than a decade > and only stopped when MS deliberately broke it with the final > update. It was a hell of a lot better than the crap that followed > it. One issue I have not seen others mention is that Vista moved to a compositing window manager, in which the window manager composed the display from multiple off-screen buffers rather than having the apps paint directly into the framebuffer. This required decent a decent 3D-capable GPU while XP could get along fine without one. In a sop to OEMs that were shipping the then-crappy Intel integrated graphics, Microsoft allowed very underspec'd hardware to make the official compatibility list. Much of the later success of Windows 7 (which added even more compositing eye candy) was simply due to the HW market having moved on to accommodate the new requirements. --Bill --===============6751727540543518180==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sat Aug 10 00:54:19 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] flyback transformer supplier Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2024 20:54:14 -0400 Message-ID: <620865969.3595329.1723251254236@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7156035795510623883==" --===============7156035795510623883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From time to time I have seen people looking for flyback transformers on the = list. I just came across a resource that may (or may not) be useful for anyo= ne looking for one. Hope this is of use to someone. https://www.technotronic-dimensions.com/sitemap.htm Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============7156035795510623883==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Aug 10 05:28:41 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 00:28:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7f8232871e14725420121030e1a3dbcd@harlie.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1313596242436271830==" --===============1313596242436271830== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've always been pro MS-DOS - the earliest version I started with was about 3.20, IIRC. I don't ever recall seeing 86-DOS on shelves, or ever really hearing about it. But CP/M remained fairly popular to mid 1980s (I just mean I knew various friends who daily used CP/M then). A couple issues with CP/M: it never really "broke the 64K barrier", so I've wondered who "pioneered" the segment management needed to make the 1MB conventional RAM seem more contiguous than it really is? (I understand the 640K barrier was just arbitrarily picking 10 segments for end user, and 6 for essentially system reserve - and yes there is more details to that). Maybe it related to the difference between .COM (a 64KB binary sequence, but I think the first 100 bytes reserved for passing from the command line?), and .EXEs that could have enough code to span multiple segments (but does the credit for that go to the operating system, or the compiler writers? or a collaboration between both?). CP/M, as far as I can tell, never tackled "the 64KB barrier" (i.e. was a C compiler for CP/M available that could do x =3D malloc(100000) and use that as a contiguous allocation from a programmer perspective?). And, what about software interrupts? I recall those huge books detailing the MS-DOS interrupts, so I think one does have to give Microsoft credit towards providing developers with technical details (being somewhat reminiscent of IBM's SHARE groups, in a way-- in terms of advocating/training end users, and constant collaboration in developer conferences). In short, I've proposed QDOS may have truly been the better product at those pivotal months of 1980/1981. DR's 86-DOS was "in the works" and just too late (but years later, I did come to love DR DOS 3.40 over MS-DOS 4.xx, and stuck with DR-DOS up until MS-DOS 6.22). On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 12:31=E2=80=AFAM maddox--- via cctalk wrote: > On 07.08.2024 05:55, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > I keep seeing all these bad comments about Vista. Just what was > > supposed to be wrong with it? I ran it for more than a decade > > and only stopped when MS deliberately broke it with the final > > update. It was a hell of a lot better than the crap that followed > > it. > > One issue I have not seen others mention is that Vista moved to a > compositing window manager, in which the window manager composed the > display from multiple off-screen buffers rather than having the apps > paint directly into the framebuffer. This required decent a decent > 3D-capable GPU while XP could get along fine without one. In a sop to > OEMs that were shipping the then-crappy Intel integrated graphics, > Microsoft allowed very underspec'd hardware to make the official > compatibility list. Much of the later success of Windows 7 (which added > even more compositing eye candy) was simply due to the HW market having > moved on to accommodate the new requirements. > > --Bill > > --===============1313596242436271830==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sat Aug 10 08:23:39 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Need audio gear moved from NJ to Chicago area (VCFMW) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 03:23:23 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7332845184490337338==" --===============7332845184490337338== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you have room, I'll be glad to pay you for the help. Thanks, Paul --===============7332845184490337338==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Aug 10 18:33:00 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Schematic or PCB layout for MAI Jolt Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 11:32:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <014c01dae91b$89114490$9b33cdb0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0621155346656052668==" --===============0621155346656052668== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:53 PM Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Thanks! I did try that but haven't heard back and don't want to pester > him. > Keep trying, he's an incredible nice man and would probably be happy to help you. Tell him I said hello when you get through to him. Sellam --===============0621155346656052668==-- From rich.cini@gmail.com Sun Aug 11 10:43:43 2024 From: Richard Cini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for cleaner schematic copies for Lomas boards Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 01:22:57 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3995995960769593829==" --===============3995995960769593829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All =E2=80=93 There may be some overlap between cctalk and other lists, but= I=E2=80=99m working on some Lomas reproduction boards, the first being the C= olor Magic. I=E2=80=99ve made two prototypes, neither of which works with the= Lomas 186 board I have. It=E2=80=99s a very long story (working on this for = more than a year on-and-off), but I borrowed a working set of boards to assis= t with the reproduction so I can test from a known-working configuration. Wha= t I=E2=80=99m looking for is a clean scan of the schematics. There are two ve= rsions floating around, neither of which is particularly clean, so I=E2=80=99= m looking for a clean copy so I can eliminate as many points of difference as= possible. If anyone can assist with this, I=E2=80=99d appreciate it. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://cini.classiccmp.org --===============3995995960769593829==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Mon Aug 12 09:12:19 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 11:02:09 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0436053372367569029==" --===============0436053372367569029== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, in my stash of IC's Ive found a small box containing some Harris TTL Proms 75xx and 76xx. Interestingly the print is up right when the pin 1 is on the left side. I think they are pulled somewhere, otherwise they look linke new..even the pins aren't strongly rectangular..they are spread a little to the outside. I don't know what todo with them. If someone recognizes the numbers printed on them and think that he want those chips, I'll ship them worldwide for just the shipping costs. Drop me a mail, otherwise the will enter the dumpster in a week. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============0436053372367569029==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Mon Aug 12 11:54:17 2024 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 13:53:59 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4215255166542452128==" --===============4215255166542452128== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could you please post a picture or list the type numbers? About 13 years ago we swapped RQDX disk controllers, you got an RQDX3, amd I got an RQDX2 I wanted for my MicroVAX I, do you remembe? Holm Tiffe via cctalk schrieb am Mo., 12. Aug. 2024, 11:12: > Hi, > > in my stash of IC's Ive found a small box containing some Harris TTL > Proms 75xx and 76xx. > Interestingly the print is up right when the pin 1 is on the left side. > I think they are pulled somewhere, otherwise they look linke new..even > the pins aren't strongly rectangular..they are spread a little to the > outside. > > I don't know what todo with them. If someone recognizes the numbers > printed on them and think that he want those chips, I'll ship them > worldwide for just the shipping costs. > > Drop me a mail, otherwise the will enter the dumpster in a week. > > Regards, > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 > info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > --===============4215255166542452128==-- From jrr@flippers.com Mon Aug 12 19:11:21 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 12:11:13 -0700 Message-ID: <8aa9318f-1ea7-4224-9f76-f54db124290b@flippers.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2404141735117023483==" --===============2404141735117023483== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Holm, I use some of those PROMs, but shipping from Germany may make it not so good. And, of course, if they are already programmed then they are worthless - at least to me! I tkae it there are no extra numbers stamped over the Harris part numbers? They are probably not burned if so. How may chips have you got - perhaps just send me a photo perhaps? I am interested! Thanks for posting, John :-#)# On 2024-08-12 2:02 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > in my stash of IC's Ive found a small box containing some Harris TTL > Proms 75xx and 76xx. > Interestingly the print is up right when the pin 1 is on the left side. > I think they are pulled somewhere, otherwise they look linke new..even > the pins aren't strongly rectangular..they are spread a little to the > outside. > > I don't know what todo with them. If someone recognizes the numbers > printed on them and think that he want those chips, I'll ship them > worldwide for just the shipping costs. > > Drop me a mail, otherwise the will enter the dumpster in a week. > > Regards, > Holm > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============2404141735117023483==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Aug 13 12:53:42 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 14:53:34 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8aa9318f-1ea7-4224-9f76-f54db124290b@flippers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6542310679109589626==" --===============6542310679109589626== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Robertson via cctalk wrote: > Hi Holm, > > I use some of those PROMs, but shipping from Germany may make it not so > good. > > And, of course, if they are already programmed then they are worthless - > at least to me! I tkae it there are no extra numbers stamped over the > Harris part numbers? They are probably not burned if so. The question wasn't for people that couldn't use them, it was meant the other way around...just to clearify this. > > How may chips have you got - perhaps just send me a photo perhaps? Yes, forgot the links.. see the other post. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============6542310679109589626==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Aug 13 12:56:09 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 14:55:57 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1466541417672191397==" --===============1466541417672191397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://www.tiffe.de/images/TTL-1.jpg https://www.tiffe.de/images/TTL-2.jpg https://www.tiffe.de/images/TTL-3.jpg Forgot those links.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============1466541417672191397==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Aug 13 13:02:33 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 15:02:21 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3150810688442408547==" --===============3150810688442408547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ..after a closer look, the proms are don't even Harris..that's something lieke a "-B" on them.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============3150810688442408547==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Aug 13 13:31:13 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 09:31:03 -0400 Message-ID: <4327396F-42B7-40B1-95A7-F5DF4C5E5C84@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9211346752851925690==" --===============9211346752851925690== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 13, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ..after a closer look, the proms are don't even Harris..that's something > lieke a "-B" on them.. >=20 > Regards, > Holm It looks that way to me, too. It is the Burroughs logo; you can see the exac= t same image on 1970s era manuals (see Bitsavers for example). paul --===============9211346752851925690==-- From jrr@flippers.com Tue Aug 13 16:41:00 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 09:40:55 -0700 Message-ID: <61ced564-ec1b-4c45-a17c-891f0ce03c07@flippers.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6543756835095985765==" --===============6543756835095985765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-08-13 6:02 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > ..after a closer look, the proms are don't even Harris..that's something > lieke a "-B" on them.. > > Regards, > Holm Those look pre-programmed to me, the stamped label is often crooked and all are backwards from how everyone else stamps their chips. Only of interest to Burroughs museum folks. You might want to send them to a computer museum for spares. Is Dave McGuire (Data IO list) here? John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============6543756835095985765==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Aug 13 18:50:20 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 20:50:04 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <61ced564-ec1b-4c45-a17c-891f0ce03c07@flippers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3625307312844718663==" --===============3625307312844718663== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Robertson via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-08-13 6:02 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > > ..after a closer look, the proms are don't even Harris..that's something > > lieke a "-B" on them.. > > > > Regards, > > Holm > > Those look pre-programmed to me, the stamped label is often crooked and > all are backwards from how everyone else stamps their chips. That's new to me..mean that with the reverse labeling. That they may be programed was my supposition, that's why I've talked about persons who kow about the numbers. Ok, ppl. that have a Burroughs at home and know what that chips are doing may be scarce... Regards, Holm > > Only of interest to Burroughs museum folks. You might want to send them > to a computer museum for spares. Is Dave McGuire (Data IO list) here? > > John :-#)# > > -- > John's Jukes Ltd. > 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 > Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) > flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============3625307312844718663==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Aug 13 18:51:53 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 20:51:46 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4327396F-42B7-40B1-95A7-F5DF4C5E5C84@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6993841525873838003==" --===============6993841525873838003== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On Aug 13, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > > ..after a closer look, the proms are don't even Harris..that's something > > lieke a "-B" on them.. > >=20 > > Regards, > > Holm >=20 > It looks that way to me, too. It is the Burroughs logo; you can see the ex= act same image on 1970s era manuals (see Bitsavers for example). >=20 > paul >=20 Ok Thx Paul.. I just wanted to ask if someone can use them before they get go into the trash. Regards, Holm --=20 Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,=20 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============6993841525873838003==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Aug 13 19:23:26 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 15:23:18 -0400 Message-ID: <79F40691-C2BD-4B67-B112-FCADC9D6A543@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1787323971458892886==" --===============1787323971458892886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 13, 2024, at 2:50 PM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: >=20 > John Robertson via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On 2024-08-13 6:02 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: >>> ..after a closer look, the proms are don't even Harris..that's something >>> lieke a "-B" on them.. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Holm >>=20 >> Those look pre-programmed to me, the stamped label is often crooked and=20 >> all are backwards from how everyone else stamps their chips. >=20 > That's new to me..mean that with the reverse labeling. > That they may be programed was my supposition, that's why I've talked > about persons who kow about the numbers. Ok, ppl. that have a Burroughs > at home and know what that chips are doing may be scarce... I wonder if T7543 etc. is the date code and that 23599809 or similar number i= s a Burroughs part number. paul --===============1787323971458892886==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 14 07:01:07 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 09:00:55 +0200 Message-ID: <779f6d43-517-48f8-4615-b2ddbba85ac3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5647694216425635284==" --===============5647694216425635284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 13 Aug 2024, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> It looks that way to me, too. It is the Burroughs logo; you can see >> the exact same image on 1970s era manuals (see Bitsavers for example). > I just wanted to ask if someone can use them before they get go into the > trash. Well, you could always send them to us ;-) BTW it was a Google search of 3 minutes. - Burroughs 1673 7108 RAM3 DIP MEMORY ARRAY - Burroughs 1674 5150 RAM1 1024 BIT RAM MEM Both parts found in the B1700 parts manual on bitsavers. The third one could be a sort of driver or TTL part. The 2539 9908 (not 9809 as here) would be an Intel 3207A. Christian --===============5647694216425635284==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Wed Aug 14 07:28:30 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 09:28:22 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <79F40691-C2BD-4B67-B112-FCADC9D6A543@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6660474790723404282==" --===============6660474790723404282== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On Aug 13, 2024, at 2:50 PM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > > John Robertson via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > >> On 2024-08-13 6:02 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > >>> ..after a closer look, the proms are don't even Harris..that's something > >>> lieke a "-B" on them.. > >>>=20 > >>> Regards, > >>> Holm > >>=20 > >> Those look pre-programmed to me, the stamped label is often crooked and = > >> all are backwards from how everyone else stamps their chips. > >=20 > > That's new to me..mean that with the reverse labeling. > > That they may be programed was my supposition, that's why I've talked > > about persons who kow about the numbers. Ok, ppl. that have a Burroughs > > at home and know what that chips are doing may be scarce... >=20 > I wonder if T7543 etc. is the date code and that 23599809 or similar number= is a Burroughs part number. >=20 > paul I think very much the same. There are chips with different T7xxx numbers but the same long part number at bottom. Regards, Holm --=20 Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,=20 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============6660474790723404282==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Wed Aug 14 20:24:34 2024 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Harris TTL Proms.. Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 22:24:25 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <779f6d43-517-48f8-4615-b2ddbba85ac3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8706496257603628748==" --===============8706496257603628748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 13 Aug 2024, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> It looks that way to me, too. It is the Burroughs logo; you can see > >> the exact same image on 1970s era manuals (see Bitsavers for example). > > I just wanted to ask if someone can use them before they get go into the > > trash. > > Well, you could always send them to us ;-) And where exactly is "us" and do you want to pay for a Hermes parcel? > > BTW it was a Google search of 3 minutes. > - Burroughs 1673 7108 > RAM3 DIP MEMORY ARRAY > - Burroughs 1674 5150 > RAM1 1024 BIT RAM MEM > > Both parts found in the B1700 parts manual on bitsavers. > The third one could be a sort of driver or TTL part. The 2539 9908 (not > 9809 as here) would be an Intel 3207A. > > Christian If one knows that this are Burroughs Chips and is interested to find out what they are good for.. then yes. :-) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============8706496257603628748==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Thu Aug 15 16:21:27 2024 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 09:21:21 -0700 Message-ID: <4C643100-A1FE-4BC9-A1AB-68B0314EA4AE@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2370508973433279829==" --===============2370508973433279829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christies lot listings for the Paul Allen / LCM stuff are now up. Pretty sad to see such a collection of notable items broken up. The web presentation is a little confusing. I think it breaks down like this: Intro / overview: https://www.christies.com/en/stories/paul-allen-computer-collection-d946162ef= 5744d7bb43c4459733bf9cf https://www.christies.com/en/stories/gen-one-innovations-from-the-paul-g-alle= n-collection-1f0df60a726e4dcbabef3a91a57ef7ee =E2=80=94 The auctions: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-coll= ection/lots/3726 https://www.christies.com/en/auction/pushing-boundaries-ingenuity-from-the-pa= ul-g-allen-collection-30730/ (Allen, but not computers): https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/over-horizon-art-future-paul-g-allen-colle= ction/lots/3727 =E2=80=94 (A couple of item sublinks from above): The CDC 6500: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-coll= ection/cdc-6500-supercomputer-118/230057?ldp_breadcrumb=3Dback The PDP-10: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-coll= ection/dec-pdp-10-ki10-mainframe-computer-125/230064 --===============2370508973433279829==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Thu Aug 15 16:47:12 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 12:46:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6165368434439170113==" --===============6165368434439170113== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to the group, I am tinkering with some C-code where I am working on something that can process some microcode. The microcode is from a DG MV/10000 machine and while working on it, I noticed it is in little-endian. That's simple enough to work around but that had me wondering, why do we have big and little endianness? What is the benefit of storing the low-order byte first? Or is that simply just an arbitrary decision made by some hardware manufacturers? I am mostly just curious. Thanks, Peter / KG4OKG --===============6165368434439170113==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 15 16:50:36 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 12:50:27 -0400 Message-ID: <378B8606-F99C-458D-B7C6-29A83F644019@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <4C643100-A1FE-4BC9-A1AB-68B0314EA4AE@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6929611050800133107==" --===============6929611050800133107== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 15, 2024, at 12:21 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Christies lot listings for the Paul Allen / LCM stuff are now up. > Pretty sad to see such a collection of notable items broken up. >=20 > The web presentation is a little confusing. I think it breaks down like thi= s: ... It seems there are two auctions, with two separate schedules. One puzzle is = that some of the items in the "History of Computing" auction, like the SC40, = are listed as "LCM collection". LCM of course is a museum and non-profit ins= titution, which makes it puzzling to see its property appear in the same auct= ion as Paul Allen's private items like the CDC 6500. The later auction shows a DD60 console display. Tempting... paul --===============6929611050800133107==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 15 17:00:49 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 13:00:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2732774875616407777==" --===============2732774875616407777== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 15, 2024, at 12:46 PM, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hi to the group, >=20 > I am tinkering with some C-code where I am working on something that can > process some microcode. The microcode is from a DG MV/10000 machine and > while working on it, I noticed it is in little-endian. That's simple enough > to work around but that had me wondering, why do we have big and little > endianness? What is the benefit of storing the low-order byte first? Or is > that simply just an arbitrary decision made by some hardware manufacturers? >=20 > I am mostly just curious. >=20 > Thanks, > Peter / KG4OKG The short answer is "it's historic and manufacturers have done it in differen= t ways". You might read the original paper on the topic, "On holy wars and a plea for = peace" by Danny Cohen (IEN-137, 1 april 1980): https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien= /ien137.txt And yes, different computers have used different ordering, not just character= s-in-word ordering but bit position numbering. For example, very confusingly= there are computers where the conventional numbering has the lowest bit numb= er (0 or 1) assigned to the most significant bit. The more common numbering = of 0 for the LSB gives the property that setting bit n in a word produces the= value 2^n, which is more convenient than, say, 2^(59-n). paul --===============2732774875616407777==-- From commodorejohn@gmail.com Thu Aug 15 17:54:28 2024 From: John To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 10:54:16 -0700 Message-ID: <20240815105416.00000de6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <172374120804.2847341.15097096681837590952@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5606582397868360838==" --===============5606582397868360838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Peter Ekstrom > > I am tinkering with some C-code where I am working on something that > can process some microcode. The microcode is from a DG MV/10000 > machine and while working on it, I noticed it is in little-endian. > That's simple enough to work around but that had me wondering, why do > we have big and little endianness? What is the benefit of storing the > low-order byte first? Or is that simply just an arbitrary decision > made by some hardware manufacturers? Mostly because hardware support for dividing a word into smaller chunks (and addressing them individually) was something manufacturers added at different times, on their own initiative, and there was no agreed-upon way to do it. And since there are two obvious ways to turn a sequence of X Y-bit chunks into a word of X * Y bits and neither one is exactly "wrong," it ended up being a crapshoot as to whether manufacturers would do it the one way, or the other. (...or do something demented instead, like the PDP-11's "middle-endian" approach to 32-bit values...) And most of the debate probably came down to matters of taste; big- endian is how we write things on paper, so it seems "natural" to most people, while little-endian means that byte offset matches place value (i.e. byte 0's value is multiplied by (256 ^ 0) = 1, byte 1's value by (256 ^ 1) = 256, etc.,) so it seems "natural" to math types. That said - and I have no idea whether this actually influenced anyone's decision for any system anywhere ever - one hard advantage of little-endian representation is that, if your CPU does arithmetic in serial fashion, you don't have to "walk backwards" to do it in the correct sequence. --===============5606582397868360838==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 15 18:11:42 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 14:11:35 -0400 Message-ID: <557DBF95-D33E-4ACF-8606-F35F05F249D0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1949903349286349950==" --===============1949903349286349950== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 15, 2024, at 1:27 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >=20 > Danny Cohen, author of "On holy wars and a plea for peace", on the left and= me in the white shirt, taken in 2003. >=20 > MIPS CPUs can be configured by the hardware to run in either big-endian or = little-endian mode. Indeed, though depending on the vendor, support for one of the modes may be m= arginal. I remember evaluating the Raza (now Broadcom) XLR processor when it first cam= e out. Was told it supported little endian, which we needed. Tried to confi= gure the eval unit in little endian mode -- dead as a doornail. Asked the rep. Answer: "well, the *hardware* is designed to support it, but = the power on boot configuration code is big endian only". Oh. Ended up spen= ding a month or two converting fun stuff like DDR timing tuning loops to litt= le endian. It did eventually work, but no thanks to the people selling the d= evice... paul --===============1949903349286349950==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 15 19:41:32 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 13:41:20 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5152662584043352321==" --===============5152662584043352321== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-08-15 11:00 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The short answer is "it's historic and manufacturers have done it in differ= ent ways". >=20 > You might read the original paper on the topic, "On holy wars and a plea fo= r peace" by Danny Cohen (IEN-137, 1 april 1980): https://www.rfc-editor.org/i= en/ien137.txt Not reading the paper, I would say it is more the case having short data=20 types (little) and FORTRAN packing 4 characters in word (big). I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't=20 automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little=20 programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. Now I can see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the=20 CPU's are brain dead in that aspect. char *foo, long bar; ... foobar =3D *foo + bar is r1 =3D foo r3 =3D * r1 r2 =3D bar sex byte r3 sex word r3 r4 =3D r3 + r2 foobar =3D r3 what I want is bar =3D * foo + bar nice easy coding. >=20 > And yes, different computers have used different ordering, not just charact= ers-in-word ordering but bit position numbering. For example, very confusing= ly there are computers where the conventional numbering has the lowest bit nu= mber (0 or 1) assigned to the most significant bit. The more common numberin= g of 0 for the LSB gives the property that setting bit n in a word produces t= he value 2^n, which is more convenient than, say, 2^(59-n). Real computers are 2^36 from the 50's. Big iron is the 60's. :) > paul >=20 --===============5152662584043352321==-- From spc@conman.org Thu Aug 15 20:41:57 2024 From: Sean Conner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:41:50 -0400 Message-ID: <20240815204150.GF10029@brevard.conman.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0328797197572883745==" --===============0328797197572883745== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was thus said that the Great ben via cctalk once stated: > > I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't > automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little > programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. > Now I can see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the > CPU's are brain dead in that aspect. > > char *foo, long bar; > ... foobar = *foo + bar > is r1 = foo > r3 = * r1 > r2 = bar > sex byte r3 > sex word r3 > r4 = r3 + r2 > foobar = r3 > what I want is > bar = * foo + bar > nice easy coding. What CPUs did it correctly? And how did they handle signed vs. unsigned promotion? unsigned char *ufoo; unsigned long ubar; ufoobar = *ufoo + ubar; signed char *foo; signed long bar; foobar = *foo + bar; -spc --===============0328797197572883745==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 15 20:52:58 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:52:50 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240815204150.GF10029@brevard.conman.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0348490670919980661==" --===============0348490670919980661== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 15, 2024, at 4:41 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: >=20 > It was thus said that the Great ben via cctalk once stated: >>=20 >> I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't=20 >> automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little=20 >> programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. >> Now I can see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the=20 >> CPU's are brain dead in that aspect. >>=20 >> char *foo, long bar; >> ... foobar =3D *foo + bar >> is r1 =3D foo >> r3 =3D * r1 >> r2 =3D bar >> sex byte r3 >> sex word r3 >> r4 =3D r3 + r2 >> foobar =3D r3 >> what I want is >> bar =3D * foo + bar >> nice easy coding. >=20 > What CPUs did it correctly? And how did they handle signed vs. unsigned > promotion? =20 >=20 > unsigned char *ufoo; > unsigned long ubar; >=20 > ufoobar =3D *ufoo + ubar; >=20 > signed char *foo; > signed long bar; >=20 > foobar =3D *foo + bar; >=20 > -spc Obviously, "correctly" is in the eye of the beholder. You can do size extens= ion, signed or unsigned, on any computer. How complicated it is depends on t= he machine. For example, on VAX there are instructions for signed as well as unsigned pro= motion (CVTxy and MOVZxy respectively). On PDP11, MOVB into a register does = sign extension; unsigned promotion requires two instructions but that's no bi= g deal. And of course, promotion to bigger types requires multiple instructi= ons either way since you're now dealing with multiple registers. Unsigned promotion on a CDC 6600 is one instruction; signed requires three. paul --===============0348490670919980661==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 15 21:12:01 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:11:54 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4C643100-A1FE-4BC9-A1AB-68B0314EA4AE@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3110461314069096317==" --===============3110461314069096317== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the items listed is "A group of six calculators". Most of them are ca= lculators, but one is an LGP-30. I can't tell how complete it is, but it doe= sn't look too beat up. paul --===============3110461314069096317==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Thu Aug 15 21:13:41 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:13:31 -0500 Message-ID: <1704992596.437060.1723756411500@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6614416440603641141==" --===============6614416440603641141== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > one is an LGP-30. I can't tell how complete it is, but it doesn't look too= beat up. I dare to bet it's the last one. Anywhere. mcl --===============6614416440603641141==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Thu Aug 15 21:41:57 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:41:47 -0500 Message-ID: <206123254.452437.1723758107673@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <1704992596.437060.1723756411500@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0959986849211410605==" --===============0959986849211410605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I dare to bet it's the last one. Anywhere. Well. Now that my *rage* has settled down a bit ... ... a least the "expected amount" on these items will probably mean they won't go to scrap. The machines are probably going to go for less than a million. There are _thousands_ of people in this country who could have just written a check. I'm going back to rage some more. Don't mind me. mcl --===============0959986849211410605==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Aug 15 22:42:48 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:10:47 -0500 Message-ID: <1345427c-84fe-41ec-be8c-bc4b59e43125@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4016198771764328464==" --===============4016198771764328464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm afraid you might not understand how promotion works in C. Promotion has nothing do to with the word size of the machine it's running on. Within the expression, all intermediate values and literals are promoted to the smallest type that can contain the largest value/literal in the expression.  As a general rule numeric literals (actual numbers typed in) are the default integer size of the machine (32 bits on most modern processors and compilers).  This can be changed with pragmas or command line options on most C compilers. This may or may not be promoted or demoted to store the result in its final destination. For example: #include "stdint.h" int foo( void ) {     uint32_t Long1 = 10;     uint32_t Long2 = 20;     uint16_t Short1 = 10;     unit16_t Short2 = 20;     uint8_t Byte1 = 10;     uint8_t Byte2 = 20;     //     //  Everything to the right of the equals is promoted to a uint32, the math will be performed and then the result will be truncated to a uint8_t when assigned.     //     //  This may also generate a compiler warning due to not typecasting the result on the right side of the equals.     //     Byte1 = Short1 + Long1;     //     //  Everything to the right of the equals will be promoted to a uint16, the math will be performed and then the result will be promoted to a uint32 when assigned     //     Long1 = Short1 + Byte1;     //     //  Everything to the right of the equals will not be promoted at all, the math will be performed and the result will be promoted to a uint16 when assigned.     //     Short1 = Byte1 + Byte2; Generally numeric literals (actual numbers typed in) are the default integer size of the machine (32 bits on most modern processors and compilers).  This can be changed with pragmas or command line options on most C compilers. I hope this clears things up? On 8/15/2024 2:41 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-08-15 11:00 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> The short answer is "it's historic and manufacturers have done it in >> different ways". >> >> You might read the original paper on the topic, "On holy wars and a >> plea for peace" by Danny Cohen (IEN-137, 1 april 1980): >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien137.txt > Not reading the paper, I would say it is more the case having short > data types (little) and FORTRAN packing 4 characters in word (big). > > I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't > automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little > programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. > Now I can see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the > CPU's are brain dead in that aspect. > > char *foo, long bar; > ... foobar = *foo + bar >  is r1 = foo >  r3 = * r1 >  r2 = bar >  sex byte r3 >  sex word r3 >  r4 = r3 + r2 >  foobar = r3 >  what I want is >  bar = * foo + bar > nice easy coding. >> >> And yes, different computers have used different ordering, not just >> characters-in-word ordering but bit position numbering. For example, >> very confusingly there are computers where the conventional numbering >> has the lowest bit number (0 or 1) assigned to the most significant >> bit.  The more common numbering of 0 for the LSB gives the property >> that setting bit n in a word produces the value 2^n, which is more >> convenient than, say, 2^(59-n). > > Real computers are 2^36 from the 50's. > Big iron is the 60's. :) > > >>     paul >> > > --===============4016198771764328464==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Aug 15 22:56:22 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:56:13 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7296517661958085299==" --===============7296517661958085299== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When signed and unsigned values (variables or literals) of the same size=20 are combined the compiler assumes that all of the values are signed.=C2=A0=20 This can yield a problem if the unsigned integer is large enough that=20 the most significant bit is set because this bit indicates sign. for example: uint8_t bValue =3D 128; int8_t=C2=A0=C2=A0 bValue1 =3D -128 Both have the same value in memory (0x80). On 8/15/2024 3:52 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Aug 15, 2024, at 4:41 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: >> >> It was thus said that the Great ben via cctalk once stated: >>> I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't >>> automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little >>> programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. >>> Now I can see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the >>> CPU's are brain dead in that aspect. >>> >>> char *foo, long bar; >>> ... foobar =3D *foo + bar >>> is r1 =3D foo >>> r3 =3D * r1 >>> r2 =3D bar >>> sex byte r3 >>> sex word r3 >>> r4 =3D r3 + r2 >>> foobar =3D r3 >>> what I want is >>> bar =3D * foo + bar >>> nice easy coding. >> What CPUs did it correctly? And how did they handle signed vs. unsigned >> promotion? >> >> unsigned char *ufoo; >> unsigned long ubar; >> >> ufoobar =3D *ufoo + ubar; >> >> signed char *foo; >> signed long bar; >> >> foobar =3D *foo + bar; >> >> -spc > Obviously, "correctly" is in the eye of the beholder. You can do size exte= nsion, signed or unsigned, on any computer. How complicated it is depends on= the machine. > > For example, on VAX there are instructions for signed as well as unsigned p= romotion (CVTxy and MOVZxy respectively). On PDP11, MOVB into a register doe= s sign extension; unsigned promotion requires two instructions but that's no = big deal. And of course, promotion to bigger types requires multiple instruc= tions either way since you're now dealing with multiple registers. > > Unsigned promotion on a CDC 6600 is one instruction; signed requires three. > > paul --===============7296517661958085299==-- From kevin_anderson_dbq@yahoo.com Thu Aug 15 23:01:41 2024 From: kevin_anderson_dbq@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 23:01:38 +0000 Message-ID: <172376289845.4006402.10918097955125197322@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <206123254.452437.1723758107673@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8367838543222820948==" --===============8367838543222820948== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am surprised they have the estimated opening bids amounts for the DEC PDP-1= 0 systems, as well as the IBM 7090, set so low. They can't be that numerous e= ither. But then again, still too costly for another museum to just pick them = up. I had selfishly hoped to see my donated mid-1980s Zenith PC clone and all of = its re-badged software (including Lotus 123 and MS Fortran and early DOS Word= ) included in one of the clumped microcomputer collections, but alas it was n= ot. Was probably chucked into a rubbish bin for disposal a long time ago. Kevin Anderson Dubuque, Iowa --===============8367838543222820948==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Aug 15 23:09:40 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:09:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0333480631962934659==" --===============0333480631962934659== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't >>> automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little >>> programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. >>> Now I can see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the >>> CPU's are brain dead in that aspect. It is not the hardware that is at fault. If anybody else is to blame, it is the compiler. int8 A =3D -1; uint8 B =3D 255; /* Those have the same bit pattern! */ int16 X; int16 Y; X =3D A; Y =3D B; will X and Y have a bit patterns of 0000 0000 1111 1111, or 1111 1111 1111 11= 11 If you expect them to be "promoted", you are giving ambiguous instructions=20 to the compiler. The CPU isn't ever going to know. THAT is why explicit typecasting is the way to go. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0333480631962934659==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 15 23:31:45 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:31:37 -0400 Message-ID: <96B929FA-17D9-45F9-A5C5-FAA51FA6F518@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20240815105416.00000de6@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4844256133648725404==" --===============4844256133648725404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 15, 2024, at 1:54 PM, John via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > ... > That said - and I have no idea whether this actually influenced > anyone's decision for any system anywhere ever - one hard advantage of > little-endian representation is that, if your CPU does arithmetic in > serial fashion, you don't have to "walk backwards" to do it in the > correct sequence. It certainly did. A storage startup I worked on had all its code targeted fo= r a little endian machine, and when it came time to consider moving to other = chips the availability of little endian mode was a major point. We did brief= ly consider one big endian only chip, fortunately elected against it (PA Risc= , which was acquired by Apple before they could ship their product). So we s= tayed with MIPS, and I already mentioned some of the complications even with = supposedely little endian capable devices. paul --===============4844256133648725404==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Aug 15 23:32:50 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:40:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240815204150.GF10029@brevard.conman.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1393992873214098516==" --===============1393992873214098516== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/15/2024 3:41 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > It was thus said that the Great ben via cctalk once stated: >> I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't >> automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little >> programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. >> Now I can see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the >> CPU's are brain dead in that aspect. >> >> char *foo, long bar; >> ... foobar =3D *foo + bar >> is r1 =3D foo >> r3 =3D * r1 >> r2 =3D bar >> sex byte r3 >> sex word r3 >> r4 =3D r3 + r2 >> foobar =3D r3 >> what I want is >> bar =3D * foo + bar >> nice easy coding. > What CPUs did it correctly? And how did they handle signed vs. unsigned > promotion? > > unsigned char *ufoo; > unsigned long ubar; > > ufoobar =3D *ufoo + ubar; // *ufoo will be promited to an unsigned long,= added to ubar and the result stored in ufoobar withouut any promotion or dem= otion (assuming ufoobar is an unsigned long) > > signed char *foo; > signed long bar; > > foobar =3D *foo + bar; // *foo will be promoted to a long, added to bar = and the result stored in foobar without any promotion or demotion (assuming f= oobar is a long) > > -spc --===============1393992873214098516==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 15 23:34:39 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:34:33 -0400 Message-ID: <06B2DA91-2487-4360-988E-DFFCAB3F7C16@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <172376289845.4006402.10918097955125197322@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2751361329995034463==" --===============2751361329995034463== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 15, 2024, at 7:01 PM, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I am surprised they have the estimated opening bids amounts for the DEC PDP= -10 systems, as well as the IBM 7090, set so low. They can't be that numerous= either. But then again, still too costly for another museum to just pick the= m up. And never mind the estimate for the LGP-30. Or the PDP-5. Or the straight-8= even allowing for the fact that it seems to have no I/O devices of any kind.= =20 Does anyone know what that SC40 ("PDP-10 clone") can do? It seems to support= SCSI I/O devices, interesting. What software, if any, might run on that? paul --===============2751361329995034463==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 15 23:37:37 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:37:29 -0400 Message-ID: <6E2D1867-2534-4185-AF56-F9740C4638C2@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0363986172641564052==" --===============0363986172641564052== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 15, 2024, at 7:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>> I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't >>>> automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little >>>> programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. >>>> Now I can see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the >>>> CPU's are brain dead in that aspect. >=20 > It is not the hardware that is at fault. > If anybody else is to blame, it is the compiler. More likely the language designers, assuming the compiler doesn't have a stan= dards violation in its code. In the case of C, the type promotion rules that= were just explained are rather bizarre and surprising. Other languages do i= t differently, with perhaps fewer surprises. Some define it very carefully (= ALGOL 68 comes to mind), some not so much. paul --===============0363986172641564052==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 15 23:40:26 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:40:19 -0400 Message-ID: <491346B8-B25E-412C-828D-DD5B64CDEDD4@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <06B2DA91-2487-4360-988E-DFFCAB3F7C16@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4365311998367256722==" --===============4365311998367256722== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 15, 2024, at 7:01 PM, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I am surprised they have the estimated opening bids amounts for the DEC PDP= -10 systems, as well as the IBM 7090, set so low. They can't be that numerous= either. But then again, still too costly for another museum to just pick the= m up. Don't forget the "buyer's premium" -- if I remember right, the bid price goes= to the seller and another 25% on top of that goes to Christie's. And then t= here's shipping... paul --===============4365311998367256722==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Aug 15 23:45:18 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:45:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6E2D1867-2534-4185-AF56-F9740C4638C2@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7607513789122348261==" --===============7607513789122348261== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> It is not the hardware that is at fault. >> If anybody else is to blame, it is the compiler. On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Paul Koning wrote: > More likely the language designers, assuming the compiler doesn't have a st= andards violation in its code. In the case of C, the type promotion rules th= at were just explained are rather bizarre and surprising. Other languages do= it differently, with perhaps fewer surprises. Some define it very carefully= (ALGOL 68 comes to mind), some not so much. C very explicitly leaves some thing undefined, supposedly to work with=20 more machines, and Kernighan & Ritchie say that it is the responsibility=20 of the programmer to create unambiguous code. for example, evaluation of expressions in the lvalue might be done before=20 OR after evaluation of expressions in th rvalue Some other languages are much stricter on types, etc. and have fewer=20 ambiguities. --===============7607513789122348261==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Aug 15 23:47:33 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 18:47:25 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7959109356709341122==" --===============7959109356709341122== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mr. Grumpy :) C has specific specifications for what is promoted when and how. They are not ambiguous just not known by many. I worked for a C compiler company so I'm may be a bit more familiar with the actual C specs and how the compiler works. However, I totally agree with you.  I heavily typecast and parenthesize my code to avoid any possible ambiguity.  Sometimes for the compiler and sometimes for someone else reading my code.            Mike On 8/15/2024 6:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>> I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't >>>> automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little >>>> programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. >>>> Now I can see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the >>>> CPU's are brain dead in that aspect. > > It is not the hardware that is at fault. > If anybody else is to blame, it is the compiler. > > int8 A = -1; > uint8 B = 255; > /* Those have the same bit pattern! */ > int16 X; > int16 Y; > X = A; > Y = B; > will X and Y have a bit patterns of 0000 0000 1111 1111, or 1111 1111 > 1111 1111 > > If you expect them to be "promoted", you are giving ambiguous > instructions to the compiler. > The CPU isn't ever going to know. > > THAT is why explicit typecasting is the way to go. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7959109356709341122==-- From rickb@bensene.com Thu Aug 15 23:49:55 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LGP-30 (was LCM auction) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 23:49:44 +0000 Message-ID: <0636f7b8b80240e088aa72224d8e0ce4@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3041202875008195668==" --===============3041202875008195668== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark L. wrote concerning the LGP-30 computer in the LCM+L/Paul Allen Auctions: > I dare to bet it's the last one. Anywhere. It isn't the last one by any means. There are a few of these machines still = around. Here are links to a few that are in collections: https://www.technikum29.de/en/computer/lgp30.php https://t-lcarchive.org/lgp-30/ http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/lgp30/lgp30.html (wa= s known operational in 2007) https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/11/redditor-discovers-leg= endary-1956-computer-in-grandparents-basement/ (Found in 2022) The LGP-30 was designed by Nuclear Physicist and Manhattan Project Team Membe= r Stanley Frankel, who also designed a number of electronic calculators, including the SCM Cogito 240/240SR and th= e Diehl Combitron. An amazing thing about the LGP-30 is its relative simplicity(compared to cont= emporaries of the time), relying heavily on the aspects of its magnetic drum-= based memory to hold the working registers as well as program storage for the= machine. This means that the machine has very few flip-flops (requiring va= cuum tubes), and uses a large number of inexpensive semiconductor diode logic= gates for data routing and control functions. They weren't fast by any means, but were inexpensive and reliable, and requir= ed no special power or cooling, making them very popular in a wide variety of= settings, from military to business. Quite a large number of them were made= , and fortunately, some have survived to this day. I don't know if any of th= e machines that still exist are actually in running condition today, but ther= e were a few of them that were known to be running in the decade of 2000. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalcultaormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon USA --===============3041202875008195668==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Aug 15 23:54:51 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:54:45 -0400 Message-ID: <1179050766.3534097.1723766085250@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <1345427c-84fe-41ec-be8c-bc4b59e43125@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1411055480561553936==" --===============1411055480561553936== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 08/15/2024 6:10 PM EDT Mike Katz via cctalk wr= ote: > I'm pretty certain you are wrong about the byte case below. The C standard s= ays something about no math will be done smaller than a short. I don't have = it handy so can't quote exactly. But what that means is before the two bytes are added, they are promoted to s= hort / uint16_t and then added. > int foo( void ) > { > uint32_t Long1 =3D 10; > uint32_t Long2 =3D 20; > uint16_t Short1 =3D 10; > unit16_t Short2 =3D 20; > uint8_t Byte1 =3D 10; > uint8_t Byte2 =3D 20; > // ... > // Everything to the right of the equals will not be promoted at > all, the math will be performed and the result will be promoted to a > uint16 when assigned. > // > Short1 =3D Byte1 + Byte2; > In this program segment: uint8_t a =3D 255; uint8_t b =3D 255; uint16_t c =3D 0; c =3D a + b; printf("c: %d \n", c); it will print 510 instead of the 254 that would result if it were added as by= tes. Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============1411055480561553936==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Aug 16 00:32:44 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:32:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0923227532925796094==" --===============0923227532925796094== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > C has specific specifications for what is promoted when and how. They are n= ot=20 > ambiguous just not known by many. > I worked for a C compiler company so I'm may be a bit more familiar with th= e=20 > actual C specs and how the compiler works. > However, I totally agree with you.=C2=A0 I heavily typecast and parenthesiz= e my=20 > code to avoid any possible ambiguity.=C2=A0 Sometimes for the compiler and = > sometimes for someone else reading my code. I will readily concede that ANSI C has fewer problems with ambiguous code=20 than the K&R C that I learned. But, for example, in: X =3D foo() + bar(); has it been defined which order the functions of foo() and bar()=20 are evaluated? Consider the possibility that either or both alter=20 variable that the other function also uses. (Stupidly simpe example, one function increments a variable, and the other=20 one doubles it) As another example of code that I would avoid, int x=3D1,y=3D1; x =3D x++ + x++; y =3D ++y + ++Y; give 2, 3, 4, or 5? is heavily dependent on exactly when the increments get done. But, thorough careful typecasting, use of intermediate variables, etc. can=20 eliminate all such problems. 'course "optimizing compilers" can (but shouldn't) alter your code. If you don't explicitly specify exactly what you want, "C gives you enough=20 rope to shoot yourself in the foot" (as Holub titled one of his books) But, I've always loved how easily C will get out of the way when you want=20 to get closer to the hardware. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0923227532925796094==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Aug 16 00:38:59 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:38:54 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6692123613266621941==" --===============6692123613266621941== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ijust sent a post that agrees so thoroughly with what you just wrote that=20 we even both used the same reference to Holub! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > Fred, > > That is true, Order of expression is undefined between execution points tha= t=20 > is why the following statement can produce different results on different=20 > compilers: > > A =3D 1; > F =3D A++ * A++; > > Without the use of parenthesis the is no way for the user to know beforehan= d=20 > what the value of F will be.=C2=A0 The only guarantee is that when the befo= re the=20 > next instruction is executed the all postfix operators will be evaluated=20 > prior to the start of the next C statement. > > As a general rule rvalue expressions are calculated by the pre-compiler and= =20 > not the compiler.=C2=A0 So the line: > > ulDays=C2=A0 =3D ulSeconds / ( 60 * 60 * 24 ); > > Would be converted by the precompiler to: > > ulDay =3D ulSeconds / 86400; > > The calculation of the lvalue ulSeconds / 86400 will be handled at run time. > > However, if ulSeconds is defined as a const it is possible that a smart=20 > precompiler will do the entire calculation and only the assignment will be = > done at runtime. > > It is possible that the volatile keyword might cause the order of expressio= n=20 > to be altered. > > uint32_t * volatile ulpDMAAddress =3D 0xffff0000;=C2=A0 // Note this is a v= olatile=20 > pointer and NOT a pointer to volatile data. > uint32_t *ulpMyPointer; > > ulpMyPointer =3D *ulpDMAAddress++ + *ulpDMAAddress++; > > My mind is getting numb just looking at that code.=C2=A0 Suffice it to say = that=20 > using multiple prefix/postfix operations in a single execution point is=20 > heavily deprecated because the actual results are implementation defined an= d=20 > my even be different depending upon what other math surrounds it. > > Another implementation specific feature of C is the order of bits in bit=20 > fields.=C2=A0 They can be assigned from most significant to least significa= nt or=20 > vice-versa.=C2=A0 It is totally up to the compiler. > > As Allan Holub says C and=C2=A0 C++, in his book of the same name, gives th= e=20 > programmer "Enough Rope To Shoot Yourself in the Foot" > > > > > On 8/15/2024 6:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> It is not the hardware that is at fault. >>>> If anybody else is to blame, it is the compiler. >>=20 >> On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Paul Koning wrote: >>> More likely the language designers, assuming the compiler doesn't have a = >>> standards violation in its code.=C2=A0 In the case of C, the type promoti= on=20 >>> rules that were just explained are rather bizarre and surprising.=C2=A0 O= ther=20 >>> languages do it differently, with perhaps fewer surprises.=C2=A0 Some def= ine=20 >>> it very carefully (ALGOL 68 comes to mind), some not so much. >>=20 >> C very explicitly leaves some thing undefined, supposedly to work with mor= e=20 >> machines, and Kernighan & Ritchie say that it is the responsibility of the= =20 >> programmer to create unambiguous code. >> for example, evaluation of expressions in the lvalue might be done before = >> OR after evaluation of expressions in th rvalue >>=20 >> Some other languages are much stricter on types, etc. and have fewer=20 >> ambiguities. > --===============6692123613266621941==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Aug 16 00:46:46 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:46:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6953013283786621731==" --===============6953013283786621731== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was teaching C, it was sometimes quite difficult to help students who had firm assumptions about things that you can'r assume. Such as the sequence of operations in the multiple iterations examples that we both used. I tried desperately to get them to do extensive commnets, and use typecasts even when they could have been left out. --===============6953013283786621731==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Aug 16 00:57:32 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:40:30 -0500 Message-ID: <9ecf592e-5292-4c0f-9180-5bb6b438b051@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <1179050766.3534097.1723766085250@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2873066573746842053==" --===============2873066573746842053== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Will according to the ISE/IEC 9899:2018 C Standard section 6.3.1.8 you=20 are incorrect.=C2=A0 Please the the emboldened line below. 6.3.1.8 Usual arithmetic conversions 1. Many operators that expect operands of arithmetic type cause=20 conversions and yield result types in a similar way. The purpose is to determine a common real type for the=20 operands and result. For the specified operands, each operand is converted, without change of type=20 domain, to a type whose corresponding real type is the common real type. Unless explicitly=20 stated otherwise, the common real type is also the corresponding real type of the result, whose type=20 domain is the type domain of the operands if they are the same, and complex otherwise. This pattern=20 is called the usual arithmetic conversions: First, if the corresponding real type of either operand is long double,=20 the other operand is converted, without change of type domain, to a type whose=20 corresponding real type is long double. Otherwise, if the corresponding real type of either operand is double,=20 the other operand is converted, without change of type domain, to a type whose corresponding=20 real type is double. Otherwise, if the corresponding real type of either operand is float,=20 the other operand is converted, without change of type domain, to a type whose corresponding=20 real type is float.64) Otherwise, the integer promotions are performed on both operands. Then=20 the following rules are applied to the promoted operands: *=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If both operands have the same type, then no further conv= ersion is=20 needed.* =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Otherwise, if both operands have signed integer types or = both have=20 unsigned integer =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 types, the operand with the type of lesser integer conver= sion rank=20 is converted to the type =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the operand with greater rank. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Otherwise, if the operand that has unsigned integer type = has rank=20 greater or equal to =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the rank of the type of the other operand, then the opera= nd with=20 signed integer type is =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 converted to the type of the operand with unsigned intege= r type. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Otherwise, if the type of the operand with signed integer= type can=20 represent all of the =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 values of the type of the operand with unsigned integer t= ype, then=20 the operand with =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 unsigned integer type is converted to the type of the ope= rand with=20 signed integer type. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Otherwise, both operands are converted to the unsigned in= teger type=20 corresponding to =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the type of the operand with signed integer type. 2.=C2=A0 The values of floating operands and of the results of floating=20 expressions may be represented in greater range and precision than that required by the type; the types=20 are not changed thereby. The cast and assignment operators are still required to remove extra range=20 and precision.=C2=A0 See 5.2.4.2.2 regarding evaluation formats. On 8/15/2024 6:54 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > >> On 08/15/2024 6:10 PM EDT Mike Katz via cctalk w= rote: >> > I'm pretty certain you are wrong about the byte case below. The C standard= says something about no math will be done smaller than a short. I don't hav= e it handy so can't quote exactly. > But what that means is before the two bytes are added, they are promoted to= short / uint16_t and then added. > > >> int foo( void ) >> { >> uint32_t Long1 =3D 10; >> uint32_t Long2 =3D 20; >> uint16_t Short1 =3D 10; >> unit16_t Short2 =3D 20; >> uint8_t Byte1 =3D 10; >> uint8_t Byte2 =3D 20; >> // > ... >> // Everything to the right of the equals will not be promoted at >> all, the math will be performed and the result will be promoted to a >> uint16 when assigned. >> // >> Short1 =3D Byte1 + Byte2; >> > In this program segment: > > uint8_t a =3D 255; > uint8_t b =3D 255; > uint16_t c =3D 0; > c =3D a + b; > printf("c: %d \n", c); > > it will print 510 instead of the 254 that would result if it were added as = bytes. > > Will > > > Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for chi= ldren to be always and forever explaining things to them, > > Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============2873066573746842053==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Aug 16 01:39:36 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 21:39:25 -0400 Message-ID: <4479705f-6ebb-4422-ace4-8aec9f5a3d59@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <172376289845.4006402.10918097955125197322@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6881708807688517436==" --===============6881708807688517436== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eh, it will go for what it goes. Try and keep in mind how tough it was=20 to keep a 1010 running in 1995. Then add 30 years to that. The thought of tracking down a bad flip flop on a thousand flip chip=20 boards really makes me think "yow". CZ On 8/15/2024 7:01 PM, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: > I am surprised they have the estimated opening bids amounts for the DEC PDP= -10 systems, as well as the IBM 7090, set so low. They can't be that numerous= either. But then again, still too costly for another museum to just pick the= m up. >=20 > I had selfishly hoped to see my donated mid-1980s Zenith PC clone and all o= f its re-badged software (including Lotus 123 and MS Fortran and early DOS Wo= rd) included in one of the clumped microcomputer collections, but alas it was= not. Was probably chucked into a rubbish bin for disposal a long time ago. >=20 > Kevin Anderson > Dubuque, Iowa --===============6881708807688517436==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 16 01:40:10 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:39:59 -0600 Message-ID: <4f2a13db-aea6-442f-987a-7ac3663b1c13@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3683188083563589160==" --===============3683188083563589160== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-08-15 6:46 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > When I was teaching C, it was sometimes quite difficult to help students > who had firm assumptions about things that you can'r assume.  Such as > the sequence of operations in the multiple iterations examples that we > both used.  I tried desperately to get them to do extensive commnets, > and use typecasts even when they could have been left out. I keep assuming C is still 16 bit K&R. Software tends to depend on the fact bytes are 8 bits, and every thing a 2,4,8 bytes wide and the newest hardware/software/underwear^H^H^H^H^H^H^H is the best. PL/I tried to fit data types, to have variable width that I think was a good idea. foobar Binary:unsigned:36 bits:mixed endian,volatile,module blah,dynamic array x y z. It least then you know what foobar does. HUMBUG foo, not so clear. Ben, still thinking 18 bit computers are just the right size for personal use, and some day I will have hardware. --===============3683188083563589160==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 16 01:44:57 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:44:50 -0600 Message-ID: <7f5ecd9b-664e-4c30-98b2-64db9b24904f@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <4479705f-6ebb-4422-ace4-8aec9f5a3d59@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8332441874985181217==" --===============8332441874985181217== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-08-15 7:39 p.m., cz via cctalk wrote: > Eh, it will go for what it goes. Try and keep in mind how tough it was > to keep a 1010 running in 1995. Then add 30 years to that. > > The thought of tracking down a bad flip flop on a thousand flip chip > boards really makes me think "yow". True, but back then things were designed to fixed and tested. > CZ --===============8332441874985181217==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Aug 16 01:45:06 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:28:21 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1389639135268076072==" --===============1389639135268076072== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Fred, That is true, Order of expression is undefined between execution points that is why the following statement can produce different results on different compilers: A = 1; F = A++ * A++; Without the use of parenthesis the is no way for the user to know beforehand what the value of F will be.  The only guarantee is that when the before the next instruction is executed the all postfix operators will be evaluated prior to the start of the next C statement. As a general rule rvalue expressions are calculated by the pre-compiler and not the compiler.  So the line: ulDays  = ulSeconds / ( 60 * 60 * 24 ); Would be converted by the precompiler to: ulDay = ulSeconds / 86400; The calculation of the lvalue ulSeconds / 86400 will be handled at run time. However, if ulSeconds is defined as a const it is possible that a smart precompiler will do the entire calculation and only the assignment will be done at runtime. It is possible that the volatile keyword might cause the order of expression to be altered. uint32_t * volatile ulpDMAAddress = 0xffff0000;  // Note this is a volatile pointer and NOT a pointer to volatile data. uint32_t *ulpMyPointer; ulpMyPointer = *ulpDMAAddress++ + *ulpDMAAddress++; My mind is getting numb just looking at that code.  Suffice it to say that using multiple prefix/postfix operations in a single execution point is heavily deprecated because the actual results are implementation defined and my even be different depending upon what other math surrounds it. Another implementation specific feature of C is the order of bits in bit fields.  They can be assigned from most significant to least significant or vice-versa.  It is totally up to the compiler. As Allan Holub says C and  C++, in his book of the same name, gives the programmer "Enough Rope To Shoot Yourself in the Foot" On 8/15/2024 6:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> It is not the hardware that is at fault. >>> If anybody else is to blame, it is the compiler. > > On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Paul Koning wrote: >> More likely the language designers, assuming the compiler doesn't >> have a standards violation in its code.  In the case of C, the type >> promotion rules that were just explained are rather bizarre and >> surprising.  Other languages do it differently, with perhaps fewer >> surprises.  Some define it very carefully (ALGOL 68 comes to mind), >> some not so much. > > C very explicitly leaves some thing undefined, supposedly to work with > more machines, and Kernighan & Ritchie say that it is the > responsibility of the programmer to create unambiguous code. > for example, evaluation of expressions in the lvalue might be done > before OR after evaluation of expressions in th rvalue > > Some other languages are much stricter on types, etc. and have fewer > ambiguities. --===============1389639135268076072==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Aug 16 01:47:08 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 20:46:57 -0500 Message-ID: <2254b681-cd72-417c-9af7-f66b103bacd2@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <4f2a13db-aea6-442f-987a-7ac3663b1c13@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4815143862442502636==" --===============4815143862442502636== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That is the reason for the stdint.h file.  Where you specify the width of the variable in bits int8_t, int16_t, uint16_t. etc. On 8/15/2024 8:39 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-08-15 6:46 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> When I was teaching C, it was sometimes quite difficult to help >> students who had firm assumptions about things that you can'r >> assume.  Such as the sequence of operations in the multiple >> iterations examples that we both used.  I tried desperately to get >> them to do extensive commnets, and use typecasts even when they could >> have been left out. > > I keep assuming C is still 16 bit K&R. Software tends to depend on the > fact bytes are 8 bits, and every thing a 2,4,8 bytes wide and the newest > hardware/software/underwear^H^H^H^H^H^H^H is the best. > PL/I tried to fit data types, to have variable width that I think was > a good idea. foobar Binary:unsigned:36 bits:mixed > endian,volatile,module blah,dynamic array x y z. It least then you > know what foobar does. > HUMBUG foo, not so clear. > > Ben, still thinking 18 bit computers are just the right size for > personal use, and some day I will have hardware. > --===============4815143862442502636==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Aug 16 01:49:07 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 18:49:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8658736303872121727==" --===============8658736303872121727== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > I am amazed at how many fresh outs I have met who really can't program thei= r=20 > way out of a paper bag. Advanced programming techniques don't help until they can actually=20 successfully think about the problem. I had a guy working for me VERY briefly, with a UC Berkeley degree, but he=20 couldn't figure out how to do 3-up mailing labels on a daisy wheel=20 printer! (sequence not mattering becuse they were manually peele off and use for a=20 mailing.) He couldn't figure out any way to do it other than needing a way to roll=20 the paper back to get back to the top for the next column! not on THAT=20 printer! (simple way - read three records into memory, print them side by side, and=20 then advance the paper) He had a few other similar shortcomings. I let him stay around until he peeled and stuck all of the labels, and to=20 give him time to find another job. I gave a final exam question on how to sort/sequence the records of a=20 large file that was too big to fit into memory. Several students who had gotten their start at the university insisted=20 that the only way it could be done was to add more memory. (simple way - read a memory sized block from the file and sort it; do that=20 again, until you have a whole bunch of sorted shorter files, do a merge=20 sort of those) Another: "A client has a large file that is in order. But each=20 day/week/month, additional records are appended to it. What's the best=20 sort algorithm to get the file back into order?" (simple 1: put the new records into a separate file, sort that; then do a=20 merge sort between that and the main file. simple 2: (if it isn't too large to manage) a bubble sort, with each pass=20 starting at the ENF of the file where the new records are, and working=20 towards th beginning, or a "shaker sort" that alternates direction. The=20 maximum nuber of passes is the number of records that were out of order. (a "shaker sort" is the best sort algorithm for taking advantage of any=20 existing order, such as a few random records being in the wrong place) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8658736303872121727==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Aug 16 01:52:22 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 21:52:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7f5ecd9b-664e-4c30-98b2-64db9b24904f@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0630824251994401163==" --===============0630824251994401163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > True, but back then things were designed to fixed and tested. Sure, and they can still be fixed, transistors are quite common. But after repairing a pair of pdp8/L's, and a pdp8/I I really have to say it's a bit of a serious job. And the 10 is like..... a billion times more stuff.... > >> CZ > --===============0630824251994401163==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Fri Aug 16 02:03:20 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LGP-30 (was LCM auction) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 21:02:55 -0500 Message-ID: <486876662.462170.1723773775573@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <0636f7b8b80240e088aa72224d8e0ce4@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0172504736164664964==" --===============0172504736164664964== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am absolutely delighted to be wrong in this case. mcl --===============0172504736164664964==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Aug 16 02:14:21 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 20:01:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0631094843627066754==" --===============0631094843627066754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have written several coding standards and comments are always primary in importance. The Misra C standard does a pretty good job of forcing the programmer to aim for something other than their foot with their rope 🙂 I am amazed at how many fresh outs I have met who really can't program their way out of a paper bag. On 8/15/2024 7:46 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > When I was teaching C, it was sometimes quite difficult to help > students who had firm assumptions about things that you can'r assume.  > Such as the sequence of operations in the multiple iterations examples > that we both used.  I tried desperately to get them to do extensive > commnets, and use typecasts even when they could have been left out. --===============0631094843627066754==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Aug 16 02:32:46 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:44:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7640305911726518218==" --===============7640305911726518218== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Fred, You are correct in all of your examples.  That is why many standards specify things like /multiple function calls should not be used in a single expression/.  The compiler will optimize out any unecessarry memory reads and writes so rewriting: X = foo() + bar(); as X = foo(); C += bar(); Will force the correct order of execution of the functions while not taking any more CPU cycles.           Mike On 8/15/2024 7:32 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Mike Katz wrote: >> C has specific specifications for what is promoted when and how. They >> are not ambiguous just not known by many. >> I worked for a C compiler company so I'm may be a bit more familiar >> with the actual C specs and how the compiler works. >> However, I totally agree with you.  I heavily typecast and >> parenthesize my code to avoid any possible ambiguity.  Sometimes for >> the compiler and sometimes for someone else reading my code. > > I will readily concede that ANSI C has fewer problems with ambiguous > code than the K&R C that I learned. > > But, for example, in: > X = foo() + bar(); > > has it been defined which order the functions of foo() and bar() are > evaluated?  Consider the possibility that either or both alter > variable that the other function also uses. > (Stupidly simpe example, one function increments a variable, and the > other one doubles it) > > As another example of code that I would avoid, > int x=1,y=1; > x = x++ + x++; > y = ++y + ++Y; > give 2, 3, 4, or 5? > is heavily dependent on exactly when the increments get done. > > But, thorough careful typecasting, use of intermediate variables, etc. > can eliminate all such problems. > 'course "optimizing compilers" can (but shouldn't) alter your code. > > If you don't explicitly specify exactly what you want, "C gives you > enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot" (as Holub titled one of his > books) > > > But, I've always loved how easily C will get out of the way when you > want to get closer to the hardware. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============7640305911726518218==-- From ats@offog.org Fri Aug 16 03:16:22 2024 From: Adam Sampson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 04:16:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1704992596.437060.1723756411500@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2261052667016120539==" --===============2261052667016120539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Linimon via cctalk writes: >> one is an LGP-30. > I dare to bet it's the last one. Anywhere. There are at least another three in museums, at the University of Stuttgart, technikum29 near Frankfurt (along with an LGP-21), and CHM in California: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/lgp30/lgp30.html https://technikum29.de/de/rechnertechnik/lgp30.php https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/early-computer-companies/5/116/1507 I've also seen discussion of a couple in private collections in the US and Germany. -- Adam Sampson --===============2261052667016120539==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 16 05:44:36 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 23:44:30 -0600 Message-ID: <28c86981-7116-4827-82ca-e598eb762112@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4352194903575748685==" --===============4352194903575748685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-08-15 7:52 p.m., cz via cctalk wrote: >> True, but back then things were designed to fixed and tested. > > Sure, and they can still be fixed, transistors are quite common. But > after repairing a pair of pdp8/L's, and a pdp8/I I really have to say > it's a bit of a serious job. And the 10 is like..... a billion times > more stuff.... This list needs a good machine shop as well, for older I/O devices. Or a least a parts list of spares. Old computers I think had better doc's than today, that had real information, Ben. --===============4352194903575748685==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 16 06:38:46 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 00:38:40 -0600 Message-ID: <613cde52-8d5e-4f48-bba4-a81614cc67c9@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <2254b681-cd72-417c-9af7-f66b103bacd2@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1811656128736376811==" --===============1811656128736376811== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-08-15 7:46 p.m., Mike Katz wrote: > That is the reason for the stdint.h file.  Where you specify the width > of the variable in bits Looks like a useless file to me. I never liked any the standards made to C after K&R. Seems more driven by the latest crappy hardware intel makes, than a language designed by people who use the product. C++ or JAVA never made sense because every class is too different from any other object.Don't say how windows are a good example of object, they are foobar-ed from the start as they deal in pixels, rather than a fractional screen display.Text windows worked under DOS.something easy to program. I don't want write a whole operating system to use modern software like windows. Grumpy Ben, trying to find a embedded C compiler for the 68000. PS: Perhaps if they had good textbook for C and the different standards I might view modern C with less distrust. --===============1811656128736376811==-- From curiousmarc3@gmail.com Fri Aug 16 06:41:02 2024 From: Curious Marc To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LGP-30 (was LCM auction) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 23:40:45 -0700 Message-ID: <097C8922-02E5-4230-BF88-D84D26B7F488@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0636f7b8b80240e088aa72224d8e0ce4@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7079956675494710222==" --===============7079956675494710222== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We also have a LGP-30 on display at the Computer History Museum. Marc > On Aug 15, 2024, at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFMark L. wrote concerning the LGP-30 computer in the LCM+L/Paul All= en Auctions: >=20 >=20 >> I dare to bet it's the last one. Anywhere. >=20 >=20 >=20 > It isn't the last one by any means. There are a few of these machines stil= l around. Here are links to a few that are in collections: >=20 >=20 >=20 > https://www.technikum29.de/en/computer/lgp30.php >=20 > https://t-lcarchive.org/lgp-30/ >=20 > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/lgp30/lgp30.html (= was known operational in 2007) >=20 > https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/11/redditor-discovers-l= egendary-1956-computer-in-grandparents-basement/ (Found in 2022) >=20 >=20 >=20 > The LGP-30 was designed by Nuclear Physicist and Manhattan Project Team Mem= ber Stanley Frankel, who also designed >=20 > a number of electronic calculators, including the SCM Cogito 240/240SR and = the Diehl Combitron. >=20 >=20 >=20 > An amazing thing about the LGP-30 is its relative simplicity(compared to co= ntemporaries of the time), relying heavily on the aspects of its magnetic dru= m-based memory to hold the working registers as well as program storage for t= he machine. This means that the machine has very few flip-flops (requiring = vacuum tubes), and uses a large number of inexpensive semiconductor diode log= ic gates for data routing and control functions. >=20 >=20 >=20 > They weren't fast by any means, but were inexpensive and reliable, and requ= ired no special power or cooling, making them very popular in a wide variety = of settings, from military to business. Quite a large number of them were ma= de, and fortunately, some have survived to this day. I don't know if any of = the machines that still exist are actually in running condition today, but th= ere were a few of them that were known to be running in the decade of 2000. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Rick Bensene >=20 > The Old Calculator Museum >=20 > https://oldcalcultaormuseum.com >=20 > Beavercreek, Oregon USA --===============7079956675494710222==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Fri Aug 16 07:21:21 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 03:22:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7667298608517518660==" --===============7667298608517518660== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The MIT museum has one too. On Thu, Aug 15, 2024, 11:54 PM Adam Sampson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Mark Linimon via cctalk writes: > > >> one is an LGP-30. > > I dare to bet it's the last one. Anywhere. > > There are at least another three in museums, at the University of > Stuttgart, technikum29 near Frankfurt (along with an LGP-21), and CHM in > California: > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/lgp30/lgp30.html > https://technikum29.de/de/rechnertechnik/lgp30.php > > https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/early-computer-companies/5/116/1= 507 > > I've also seen discussion of a couple in private collections in the US > and Germany. > > -- > Adam Sampson > --===============7667298608517518660==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri Aug 16 08:33:50 2024 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 07:49:08 +0000 Message-ID: <7wa5hclxfv.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <06B2DA91-2487-4360-988E-DFFCAB3F7C16@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7345976535928781691==" --===============7345976535928781691== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Koning wrote: > Does anyone know what that SC40 ("PDP-10 clone") can do? It seems to > support SCSI I/O devices, interesting. What software, if any, might > run on that? It probably came from CompuServe, and it would have been running some of CompuServe's software; user interface, database, I don't know. --===============7345976535928781691==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Fri Aug 16 11:49:08 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Documentary on Lee Felsenstein, creator of the first video module card and Sol-20 and Osborne-1 designer Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 07:48:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8869842581258788864==" --===============8869842581258788864== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Daydreamer - Lee Felsenstein Legacy Technologies - Episode 02 This episode is dedicated to Lee Felsenstein, a trailblazer in the development of early personal computers during the 70s and 80s. Lee engineered the VDM-1 (Video Device Module) in 1976, the precursor to modern graphic cards. Along with figures like Steve Wozniak, he helped establish the Homebrew Computer Club, the first community for PC enthusiasts. Lee was also a co-founder of Osborne, designing the notable Osborne-1. Prior to his contributions to computing, Lee was deeply involved in the Free Speech Movement and developed “Community Memory,” a project considered the earliest form of social media. This episode celebrates Lee’s enduring impact across various communities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU7BfeXaeuE --===============8869842581258788864==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Aug 16 12:52:07 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 14:51:57 +0200 Message-ID: <7121924f-d8d3-5f61-2ab-dc3d4e75984@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <1704992596.437060.1723756411500@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8567322549813288907==" --===============8567322549813288907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Mark Linimon wrote: > I dare to bet it's the last one. Anywhere. Why? I know of at least four in Europe, but there are more I think. And then all the LGP-30s in the US (are there any functional ones BTW?) One of the Europeans is ours ;-) Christian --===============8567322549813288907==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Aug 16 13:10:54 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 09:10:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7121924f-d8d3-5f61-2ab-dc3d4e75984@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3373981713832180883==" --===============3373981713832180883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One was on ebay and sold a while back. They're more common than a LINC or Varian mini,etc. On Fri, Aug 16, 2024, 9:08 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Mark Linimon wrote: > > I dare to bet it's the last one. Anywhere. > > Why? I know of at least four in Europe, but there are more I think. And > then all the LGP-30s in the US (are there any functional ones BTW?) > One of the Europeans is ours ;-) > > Christian > --===============3373981713832180883==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Aug 16 14:03:13 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 08:32:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <613cde52-8d5e-4f48-bba4-a81614cc67c9@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8128258815512646448==" --===============8128258815512646448== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ben, The purpose of the stdint.h file is to allow the programmer ti specify the size of the variables. On some systems is an int 32 bits or 64 bits (or even 16 bits on older systems or 16 bit micros).  The size of an int is not specifically defined in the C standard. Especially when doing embedded coding the size of a variable (or the size of the data pointed to by a pointer) is very important. The stdint.h file is created by the authors of the compiler so that the programmer can specify the size of the variable that he wants. /int A/ may or may not be 32 bits but /int32_t A/ will always be 32 bits. This is mostly not a problem on modern 32 bit microprocessors where an int is 32 bits  and a short is 16 bits. However, on that system is a long 32 bits or 64 bits?  By having the typedefs in the stdint.h file, the programmer can specify the exact size of the variable. On 8/16/2024 1:38 AM, ben wrote: > On 2024-08-15 7:46 p.m., Mike Katz wrote: >> That is the reason for the stdint.h file. Where you specify the width >> of the variable in bits > > Looks like a useless file to me. > I never liked any the standards made to C after K&R. Seems more driven > by the latest crappy hardware intel makes, than a language designed by > people who use the product. >  C++ or JAVA never made sense because  every class is too different > from any other object.Don't say how windows are a good example of object, > they are foobar-ed from the start as they deal in pixels, rather than > a fractional screen display.Text windows worked under DOS.something easy > to program. I don't want write a whole operating system to use modern > software like windows. > > Grumpy Ben, trying to find a embedded C compiler for the 68000. > PS: Perhaps if they had good textbook for C and the different > standards I might view modern C with less distrust. > > > --===============8128258815512646448==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Aug 16 14:33:36 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 10:33:29 -0400 Message-ID: <4EAE10D2-5D75-4C10-9399-16E54D0CCE0D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <7f5ecd9b-664e-4c30-98b2-64db9b24904f@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6528624952958535333==" --===============6528624952958535333== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 15, 2024, at 9:44 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2024-08-15 7:39 p.m., cz via cctalk wrote: >> Eh, it will go for what it goes. Try and keep in mind how tough it was to = keep a 1010 running in 1995. Then add 30 years to that. >> The thought of tracking down a bad flip flop on a thousand flip chip board= s really makes me think "yow". >=20 > True, but back then things were designed to fixed and tested. Having the diagnostics available is critical for this. But yes, if you do th= en you're right. It takes me back to 1974, when our college 11/45 crashed and then failed hard= early in the reboot. Called DEC FS. While waiting for the tech to arrive, = we (my classmate Josh Rosen and I) ran CPU diagnostics. Turned up an MMU fai= lure, failed bit in some CSR. Josh grabbed the engineering drawings to find = the data path in question, and pointed at one chip, saying: "that one". I as= ked "why not one of the others?" Answer: "because that's the most expensive = chip in the path". We told Jim Newport when he arrived what we found, including Josh's blaming a= specific chip. Jim said "we'll see". Soon after he grabbed his soldering i= ron and spare chip box to replace -- yes indeed -- the specific chip Josh had= pinpointed. paul --===============6528624952958535333==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Aug 16 14:37:55 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 10:37:45 -0400 Message-ID: <89F9C579-DE31-45DB-8E1B-FD7376EFE3F9@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <7wa5hclxfv.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7203039241083154011==" --===============7203039241083154011== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 16, 2024, at 3:49 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >=20 > Paul Koning wrote: >> Does anyone know what that SC40 ("PDP-10 clone") can do? It seems to >> support SCSI I/O devices, interesting. What software, if any, might >> run on that? >=20 > It probably came from CompuServe, and it would have been running some > of CompuServe's software; user interface, database, I don't know. Yes, I believe the description says so. I was wondering if it could run any = DEC software, in particular any DEC OS. Or other interesting OS... ITS? :-) paul --===============7203039241083154011==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Fri Aug 16 14:56:19 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 16:56:10 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4336606444995732285==" --===============4336606444995732285== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 01:41:20PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't > automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little > programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. Now I can > see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the CPU's are brain > dead in that aspect. This makes them a perfect match for a brain-dead language. But what does it even *mean* to "automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones"? That's a rhetorical question, because your answer will probably disagree with what the C standard actually says :) Widening of integers is normally done through left-extending the sign bit. For unsigned values, the sign bit is implicitly zero although we usually say "sign extend" or "zero extend" to be clearer about whether we're dealing with signed or unsigned values. C will typically do one or the other of these, but not always the one you expected. For sign-extension, m68k has the EXT instruction, and x86 has CBW/CWDE. For zero-extension, pre-clear the register before loading a smaller value into a subregister. From the 386 onwards, there are MOVZX/MOVSX which do load-and-extend in a single operation. If the result of a calculation is then truncated when written back to memory, then the upper bits of the register may have never had an effect on the result and did not need to be set to a known value, so this palaver is quite unnecessary. The thing was only extended in the first place because C's promotion rules required it to be, and the compiler backend has had to prove otherwise to eliminate it again. As it happens, it's not unnessary on modern out-of-order CPUs, so there's a lot more use of MOVZX etc on code compiled for x86-64. Loading into a subregister without clearing the full register first introduces a false dependency on the old value of the upper bits, resulting in a pipeline stall and performance hit. However, this is "just" for performance rather than correctness. Said performance hit is likely the main reason why x86-64 automatically zero-extends when loading a 32-bit value into a register, and so MOVZX is no longer required for that operation. So in fact x86 *does* "automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones". Not doing so would cause an unacceptable performance hit when running 32-bit code (which was basically all of it back in 2003 when the first Opteron was released) or 64-bit code making heavy use of 32-bit data. Now, what kind of badly-written code and/or braindead programming language would go out of its way to be inefficient and use 32-bit arithmetic instead of the native register width? I'm sure you can "C" where I'm going here. `int` is extremely special to it. C really wants to do everything with 32-bit values. Smaller values are widened, larger values are very grudgingly tolerated. C programmers habitually use `int` as array indices rather than `size_t`, particularly in `for` loops. Apparently everything is *still* a VAX. So on 64-bit platforms, the index needs to be widened before adding to the pointer, and there's so much terrible C code out there -- as if there is any other kind -- that the CPUs need hardware mitigations to defend against it. It's not just modern hardware which is a poor fit for C: classic hardware is too. Because of a lot of architectural assumptions in the C model, it is hard to generate efficient code for the 6502 or Z80, for example. But please, feel free to tell me how C is just fine and it's the CPUs which are at fault, even those which are heavily-optimised to run typical C code. --===============4336606444995732285==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri Aug 16 16:11:34 2024 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 16:11:28 +0000 Message-ID: <7w1q2ola6n.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <89F9C579-DE31-45DB-8E1B-FD7376EFE3F9@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7464825259106270820==" --===============7464825259106270820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Koning wrote: >> It probably came from CompuServe, and it would have been running some >> of CompuServe's software; user interface, database, I don't know. > Yes, I believe the description says so. I was wondering if it could > run any DEC software, in particular any DEC OS. Or other interesting > OS... ITS? :-) They ran TOPS-20 and TOPS-10. CompuSeve used some heavily hacked TOPS-10. I think they *could* run ITS if anyone cared to do the work to port it. --===============7464825259106270820==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Aug 16 16:22:09 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Documentary on Lee Felsenstein, creator of the first video module card and Sol-20 and Osborne-1 designer Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 09:21:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4460995649470110399==" --===============4460995649470110399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 5:28 AM Christian Liendo via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Daydreamer - Lee Felsenstein > > Legacy Technologies - Episode 02 This episode is dedicated to Lee > Felsenstein, a trailblazer in the development of early personal > computers during the 70s and 80s. Lee engineered the VDM-1 (Video > Device Module) in 1976, the precursor to modern graphic cards. Along > with figures like Steve Wozniak, he helped establish the Homebrew > Computer Club, the first community for PC enthusiasts. Lee was also a > co-founder of Osborne, designing the notable Osborne-1. Prior to his > contributions to computing, Lee was deeply involved in the Free Speech > Movement and developed “Community Memory,” a project considered the > earliest form of social media. This episode celebrates Lee’s enduring > impact across various communities. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU7BfeXaeuE Hi Christian. Is this your work? Sellam --===============4460995649470110399==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Fri Aug 16 16:27:22 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Documentary on Lee Felsenstein, creator of the first video module card and Sol-20 and Osborne-1 designer Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 12:27:07 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7957633589897501636==" --===============7957633589897501636== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No.. I saw it and I am just sharing. On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 12:22 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 5:28 AM Christian Liendo via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The Daydreamer - Lee Felsenstein > > > > Legacy Technologies - Episode 02 This episode is dedicated to Lee > > Felsenstein, a trailblazer in the development of early personal > > computers during the 70s and 80s. Lee engineered the VDM-1 (Video > > Device Module) in 1976, the precursor to modern graphic cards. Along > > with figures like Steve Wozniak, he helped establish the Homebrew > > Computer Club, the first community for PC enthusiasts. Lee was also a > > co-founder of Osborne, designing the notable Osborne-1. Prior to his > > contributions to computing, Lee was deeply involved in the Free Speech > > Movement and developed “Community Memory,” a project considered the > > earliest form of social media. This episode celebrates Lee’s enduring > > impact across various communities. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU7BfeXaeuE > > > Hi Christian. > > Is this your work? > > Sellam --===============7957633589897501636==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Aug 16 16:35:00 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 09:33:55 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1704992596.437060.1723756411500@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7177705967838342578==" --===============7177705967838342578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 2:13 PM Mark Linimon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > one is an LGP-30. I can't tell how complete it is, but it doesn't look > too beat up. > > I dare to bet it's the last one. Anywhere. > > mcl > I know where one is in Los Angeles (or was as of the early 2000s...hopefully this one isn't it). Sellam --===============7177705967838342578==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Aug 16 16:45:25 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 09:44:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172376289845.4006402.10918097955125197322@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8203141051569951860==" --===============8203141051569951860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 4:01 PM Kevin Anderson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am surprised they have the estimated opening bids amounts for the DEC > PDP-10 systems, as well as the IBM 7090, set so low. They can't be that > numerous either. But then again, still too costly for another museum to > just pick them up. > Based on my experience with Christie's, it's because they have no idea what they're doing, and they didn't bother to hire an expert to help them. Sellam --===============8203141051569951860==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Fri Aug 16 16:56:34 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 18:56:25 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7462333948057761125==" --===============7462333948057761125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Aug 04, 2024 at 08:47:44PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 3 Aug 2024, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: [...] >> Not my country, not my continent. I've lived in Africa, 3 different >> countries in Europe, spent a lot of time and speak the languages of 4 >> more, but America is far off and largely unknown to me -- a frightening >> semi-theocracy with guns and no healthcare. > Well, you should come visit, some time. > There's a lot to see. There is a lot to see in rather less unstable parts of the world too. Life is short even with healthcare and no guns, so one has to prioritise. There is even loads to see within a 5km radius of my home. The next town across is a minor settlement called Amsterdam which I have heard might also contain a museum or two. Europe is not a howling wasteland with a forlorn C64 in the corner. --===============7462333948057761125==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Aug 16 17:18:40 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 12:18:33 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3093895388977922832==" --===============3093895388977922832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/16/24 11:44, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 4:01 PM Kevin Anderson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I am surprised they have the estimated opening bids amounts for the DEC >> PDP-10 systems, as well as the IBM 7090, set so low. They can't be that >> numerous either. But then again, still too costly for another museum to >> just pick them up. >> > Based on my experience with Christie's, it's because they have no idea what > they're doing, and they didn't bother to hire an expert to help them. The whole idea of auctions is to get people sucked in, salivating over the "Deal" they might get, and then keep on bidding it up! It is all a scam to trap the unsophisticated enthusiast. I think Christie's, and other auction houses DO know what they are doing, and they do it very well. Jon --===============3093895388977922832==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Fri Aug 16 18:12:06 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 20:11:56 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0696977206789524181==" --===============0696977206789524181== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 12:28:23AM -0500, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: [...] > I don't ever recall seeing 86-DOS on shelves, or ever really hearing about > it. But CP/M remained fairly popular to mid 1980s (I just mean I knew > various friends who daily used CP/M then). A couple issues with CP/M: it > never really "broke the 64K barrier", so I've wondered who "pioneered" the > segment management needed to make the 1MB conventional RAM seem more > contiguous than it really is? (I understand the 640K barrier was just > arbitrarily picking 10 segments for end user, and 6 for essentially system > reserve - and yes there is more details to that). Your question (well, more of a musing but I'm taking it as something which can be answered) seems a bit muddled, so I'll have a crack at several possible interpretations. CP/M was effectively limited to 64KiB because it had no traction outside of the 8080/Z80 which had a 64KiB address space. To go beyond that limit on those CPUs involves paging, and some platforms did indeed use paging for RAM disks and to move some OS out of the way to leave more RAM for programs. But as far as programs are concerned, 64KiB is the limit unless they happen to be platform-specific and know how to handle the paging. From what I can tell of a casual peruse of the documentation of CP/M-68K and CP/M-86, they support the full address space of 4GiB and 1MiB respectively. This is kind of obvious on the m68k since why would they artificially limit it, but on x86 it's less obvious because they could have restricted changing the segment registers. CP/M-86 *also* supports an "8080 model" with CS == DS == ES, presumably to ease quick ports of 8080 code through source-to-source translation. 86-DOS is the same 1MiB. Applications are free to change the segment registers. As to the 8086, it really does have a 1MiB linear address space. The gotcha is that 20-bit linear addresses are too wide to fit in a 16-bit register, so use a pair of registers. This much is no different to splitting a 16-bit register across the 8-bit H and L registes on the Z80. The problem is that there are just too few segment registers and so they need reloading all the time, which is expensive, and pointer arithmetic is much more difficult due to the shift-by-four, so for performance one tries to write code such that they don't get changed so often, and one way to do that is to introduce an artificial 64KiB limit. It's also worth noting that the PC memory space is very much *not* divided into fixed 64KiB segments (and ISTR it was originally a 512/512 split). Segment registers have 16-byte granularity and a segment can straddle a 64kiB boundary just fine. This is used to some effect on the 286 to gain an extra 65520 bytes beyond the 1MiB boundary in real mode. --===============0696977206789524181==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Aug 16 18:42:06 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 11:42:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5276653019304967400==" --===============5276653019304967400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > It's also worth noting that the PC memory space is very much *not* divided > into fixed 64KiB segments (and ISTR it was originally a 512/512 split). > Segment registers have 16-byte granularity and a segment can straddle a > 64kiB boundary just fine. This is used to some effect on the 286 to gain an > extra 65520 bytes beyond the 1MiB boundary in real mode. A segment can, indeed, straddle a physical 64KiB boundary. 5150 disk IO had problems if the DMA buffer straddled a=20 physical 64KiB boundary (Int13h return code 9) Not hard to work around; just move the buffer https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58564895/problem-with-bios-int-13h-read-s= ectors-from-drive -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5276653019304967400==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Aug 16 21:02:25 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 16:02:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0701927420757405607==" --===============0701927420757405607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Such an incredible collection, wish I could have visited years ago in its prime presentation. So many great artifacts, at least fairly certain they'll go to good homes. The LINC-8 and Micral-N in particular appeal to me - but I'm in no position to bid on anything this year. If anyone does know where those two items end up, look me up - maybe someday they'll need yet another new home! Especially if they are in possible working condition. IMO, electronics prior to 1975 become exponentially harder to keep in working order. Steve v* On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 12:18=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 8/16/24 11:44, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Kevin Anderson via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> I am surprised they have the estimated opening bids amounts for the DEC > >> PDP-10 systems, as well as the IBM 7090, set so low. They can't be that > >> numerous either. But then again, still too costly for another museum to > >> just pick them up. > >> > > Based on my experience with Christie's, it's because they have no idea > what > > they're doing, and they didn't bother to hire an expert to help them. > > The whole idea of auctions is to get people sucked in, > salivating over the "Deal" they might get, and then keep on > bidding it up! It is all a scam to trap the unsophisticated > enthusiast. > > I think Christie's, and other auction houses DO know what > they are doing, and they do it very well. > > Jon > > --===============0701927420757405607==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 16 22:00:50 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 16:00:40 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8798286049515537013==" --===============8798286049515537013== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-08-16 8:56 a.m., Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 01:41:20PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> I don't know about the VAX,but my gripe is the x86 and the 68000 don't >> automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones. What little >> programming I have done was in C never cared about that detail. Now I can >> see way it is hard to generate good code in C when all the CPU's are brain >> dead in that aspect. > > This makes them a perfect match for a brain-dead language. But what does it > even *mean* to "automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger ones"? > That's a rhetorical question, because your answer will probably disagree > with what the C standard actually says :) I have yet to read a standard, I can never find, or afford the documentation. I used Microsoft C for DOS,and had that as standard model as well as 8088 cpu. C for the most part was 16 bit code, with a long here and there. I use Pelles C for windows version 8, since windows dropped 32 bit programs. As a hobby project, I am building a CPU of some size 24 bits or less. Tried a FPGA card for the last decade, but the internal routing kept screwing up. Now that we got cheap PCB's from china, I had 2901 Bit slice machine almost working. I can read/write from the front panel,but programs don't work. Software emulation in C under windows works only as prototype code. I picked up a cheap 68K board since it has no MMU and just static ram,I can use that to emulate my hardware design. Now I need to get a cross assembler and c compiler for the 68K. When I get the C emulator code working, I can later write a faster version in assembler. When I started this project any software my I could need would be written in the small C subset of C, or a revise a 16 bit C compiler source code. > > Now, what kind of badly-written code and/or braindead programming language > would go out of its way to be inefficient and use 32-bit arithmetic instead > of the native register width? The problem is the native register width keeps changing with every cpu. C was quick and dirty language for the PDP 11, with 16 bit ints. They never planned UNIX or C or Hardware would change like it did, so one gets a patched version of C. That reminds me I use gets and have to get a older version of C. > > I'm sure you can "C" where I'm going here. `int` is extremely special to it. > C really wants to do everything with 32-bit values. Smaller values are > widened, larger values are very grudgingly tolerated. C programmers > habitually use `int` as array indices rather than `size_t`, particularly in > `for` loops. Apparently everything is *still* a VAX. So on 64-bit platforms, > the index needs to be widened before adding to the pointer, and there's so > much terrible C code out there -- as if there is any other kind -- that the > CPUs need hardware mitigations to defend against it. I still using DOS c compilers,for small C. Int just has one size - 16. No longs, shorts or other stuff. DOSBOX-X is nice in that I can run dos programs or windows command line programs. > It's not just modern hardware which is a poor fit for C: classic hardware is > too. Because of a lot of architectural assumptions in the C model, it is > hard to generate efficient code for the 6502 or Z80, for example. or any PDP not 10 or 11. I heard that AT&T had C cpu but it turned out to be a flop. C main advantage, was a stack for local varables and return addresses and none of the complex subroutine nesting of ALGOL or PASCAL. > But please, feel free to tell me how C is just fine and it's the CPUs which > are at fault, even those which are heavily-optimised to run typical C code. > A computer system, CPU , memory, IO , video & mice all have to share the same pie. If you want one thing to go faster, something else must go slower. C's model is random access main memory for simple variables and array data. Register was for a simple pointer or data. Caches may seem to speed things up, but they can't handle random data (REAL(I+3,J+3)+REAL(I-3,J-3)+REAL(I+3,J-3)+REAL(I-3,J+3)/4.0)+REAL(I,J) I will stick to a REAL PDP-8. I know a TAD takes 1.5 us, not 1.7 us 70% of the time and 1.4 us the other 30%. Real time OS's and CPU's are out there, how else would my toaster know when to burn my toast. Only knowing the over all structure, of a program and hardware can one optimize it. Ben. --===============8798286049515537013==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 04:14:55 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 21:13:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6502738143294173088==" --===============6502738143294173088== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 10:18=E2=80=AFAM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 8/16/24 11:44, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Kevin Anderson via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> I am surprised they have the estimated opening bids amounts for the DEC > >> PDP-10 systems, as well as the IBM 7090, set so low. They can't be that > >> numerous either. But then again, still too costly for another museum to > >> just pick them up. > >> > > Based on my experience with Christie's, it's because they have no idea > what > > they're doing, and they didn't bother to hire an expert to help them. > > The whole idea of auctions is to get people sucked in, > salivating over the "Deal" they might get, and then keep on > bidding it up! It is all a scam to trap the unsophisticated > enthusiast. > > I think Christie's, and other auction houses DO know what > they are doing, and they do it very well. > > Jon > You are giving them far too much credit :) Sellam --===============6502738143294173088==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 17 05:42:09 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 23:42:01 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6002837259780539391==" --===============6002837259780539391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-08-16 12:11 p.m., Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > CP/M was effectively limited to 64KiB because it had no traction outside of > the 8080/Z80 which had a 64KiB address space. To go beyond that limit on > those CPUs involves paging, and some platforms did indeed use paging for RAM > disks and to move some OS out of the way to leave more RAM for programs. But > as far as programs are concerned, 64KiB is the limit unless they happen to > be platform-specific and know how to handle the paging. >=20 > From what I can tell of a casual peruse of the documentation of CP/M-68K a= nd > CP/M-86, they support the full address space of 4GiB and 1MiB respectively. > This is kind of obvious on the m68k since why would they artificially limit > it, but on x86 it's less obvious because they could have restricted changing > the segment registers. CP/M-86 *also* supports an "8080 model" with CS =3D= =3D DS > =3D=3D ES, presumably to ease quick ports of 8080 code through source-to-so= urce > translation. > I picked up a bare bones 68000 single board computer, and the only OS is=20 is a hacked CPM/68000 version in C. Any guess what compiler/assembler=20 was used back then and on what host? Does one have sub directories? --===============6002837259780539391==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Sat Aug 17 07:46:19 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:46:11 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7346317570612815003==" --===============7346317570612815003== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 11:42:01PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-08-16 12:11 p.m., Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: [...] >> From what I can tell of a casual peruse of the documentation of CP/M-68K >> and CP/M-86, they support the full address space of 4GiB and 1MiB >> respectively. This is kind of obvious on the m68k since why would they >> artificially limit it, but on x86 it's less obvious because they could >> have restricted changing the segment registers. CP/M-86 *also* supports >> an "8080 model" with CS == DS == ES, presumably to ease quick ports of >> 8080 code through source-to-source translation. > I picked up a bare bones 68000 single board computer, and the only OS is > is a hacked CPM/68000 version in C. Any guess what compiler/assembler was > used back then and on what host? Does one have sub directories? Classic CP/M does not have subdirectories, and instead has 16 "user areas", which are of limited utility. But of course the 68000 is far more powerful than the x80, and the popular 68000 platforms all had hierarchical file systems, so one might wonder if support had been added since it would be a bit silly to have a machine which can access 16MiB of memory but is still limited to a flat file system which can only hold a few tens of files. Source code to CP/M-68K can be found at , so I downloaded them to have a look. I looked at the 1.0x sources as they are a ZIP file of conventional text files, whereas the later versions are ZIP files of disk images which are harder to read without a running CP/M system. The bulk of the code is written in K&R C, with some assembly for things such as exception handlers which can't be written in C or performance-critical such as floating-point. The source code is for BDOS plus utilities, notably including a C compiler and assembler. There are various other file droppings which give a hint of what's going on here. From a very rough perusal of the source code, these are my tentative answers to your questions: The sources include a C compiler and assembler, and the readme says they are "ALCYON Compiler/Assembler/Loader". So this is probably what everything was built with. They are cross-platform, so long as you are using a common-or-garden VAX or PDP-11 running Unix or VMS such as the one we all had in our childhood bedrooms back then, VERSAdos (no, me neither), and fortunately also natively on CP/M-68K. The file droppings suggest that Alcyon Corporation probably cross-compiled it on VMS. I can't find any likely-looking code in the BDOS sources pertaining to subdirectories such as file types or attribute bits indicating a directory entry is actually a subdirectory rather than a regular file, so I think CP/M-68K still has a flat file system after all. The source for 1.1 comes as 14 256,256-byte disk images, suggesting a lot of disk-swapping to build it natively. --===============7346317570612815003==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 09:35:20 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC parts at WCFMW Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 04:35:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5740129430505601648==" --===============5740129430505601648== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you want any DEC parts, boards, options, etc brought up to VCFMW please contact me off list. I will probably be there Saturday only and leave by 7. If you would like to stop by on the way to or from WCFMW, I should be available by appointment except Saturday. I am located about 10 miles west of Champaign, IL close to I-57, I-72, and I-74. I have PDP 8 and 11 (Qbus and Unibus) boxes, systems and parts, as well as printers and a few terminals. I have several vaxes for parts, and some 3100, 3000, and 5000- including -25, 125, 133, and 200. Please email me off list with questions,and I'll give you my # to call. I have dozens of backplanes and front panels ( including 2 11/70) and probably over 1000 boards. I also collect US and foreign coins and currency, and will take them in trade for computer gear. If anyone is driving in from the NYC/New Jersey area I need a few small things picked up there. Thanks, Paul --===============5740129430505601648==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Aug 17 12:08:25 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 14:08:13 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6035127437347297372==" --===============6035127437347297372== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Sellam Abraham wrote: > I know where one is in Los Angeles (or was as of the early > 2000s...hopefully this one isn't it). Back in 2002, when I visited San Diego, there was a LGP-30 and LGP-21 in the Computermuseum of America. I have no idea where the stuff is now. Christian --===============6035127437347297372==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Sat Aug 17 12:32:09 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 14:32:00 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5891737272878735691==" --===============5891737272878735691== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 04:00:40PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-08-16 8:56 a.m., Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: [...] >> This makes them a perfect match for a brain-dead language. But what does >> it even *mean* to "automaticaly promote smaller data types to larger >> ones"? That's a rhetorical question, because your answer will probably >> disagree with what the C standard actually says :) > I have yet to read a standard, I can never find, or afford the > documentation. Google "N3096.PDF". You're welcome. [...] > Now I need to get a cross assembler and c compiler for the 68K. The GNU tools work fine for me for cross-compiling to bare-metal m68k. I use it on Unix systems, but you can probably get it working on Windows if you must. I even maintain a set of patches for GCC to do register parameters, although unless you specifically need that functionality, upstream GCC is just fine. [...] >> Now, what kind of badly-written code and/or braindead programming >> language would go out of its way to be inefficient and use 32-bit >> arithmetic instead of the native register width? > The problem is the native register width keeps changing with every cpu. C > was quick and dirty language for the PDP 11, with 16 bit ints. They never > planned UNIX or C or Hardware would change like it did, so one gets a > patched version of C. That reminds me I use gets and have to get a older > version of C. They'd have had to be fairly blinkered to not notice the S/360 series which had been around for years before the PDP-11 came out. It doesn't take a particularly large crystal ball to realise that computers got smaller and cheaper over time and features from larger machines such as wider registers would filter down into minicomputers and microcomputers. But C also seems to ignore a lot of the stuff we already knew in the 1960s about how to design languages to avoid programmers making various common mistakes, so those were quite large blinkers. They've never been taken off either: when Rob and Ken went to work for Google they came up with a "new" C-like language which makes many of the same mistakes, plus some new ones, and it is also more bloated and can't even be used to write bare-metal stuff which is one of the few things one might reasonably need C for in the first place. [...] >> It's not just modern hardware which is a poor fit for C: classic hardware >> is too. Because of a lot of architectural assumptions in the C model, it >> is hard to generate efficient code for the 6502 or Z80, for example. > or any PDP not 10 or 11. > I heard that AT&T had C cpu but it turned out to be a flop. C main > advantage, was a stack for local varables and return addresses and none of > the complex subroutine nesting of ALGOL or PASCAL. That'd be the AT&T Hobbit, "optimized for running code compiled from the C programming language". It's basically an early RISC design which spent too much time in development and the released product was buggy, slow, expensive, and had some unconventional design decisions which would have scared off potential users. Had it come out earlier it may have had a chance, but then ARM came along and that was that. Complex subroutine nesting can be done just fine on a CPU "optimised for" running C. For example, you can synthesise an anonymous structure to hold pointers to or copies of the outer variables used in the inner function, and have the inner function take that as its first parameter. This is perfectly doable in C itself, but nobody would bother because it's a lot of error-prone boilerplate. But if the compiler does it automatically, it suddenly opens up a lot more design options which result in cleaner code. >> But please, feel free to tell me how C is just fine and it's the CPUs >> which are at fault, even those which are heavily-optimised to run typical >> C code. > A computer system, CPU , memory, IO , video & mice all have to share the > same pie. If you want one thing to go faster, something else must go > slower. C's model is random access main memory for simple variables and > array data. Register was for a simple pointer or data. Caches may seem to > speed things up, but they can't handle random data > (REAL(I+3,J+3)+REAL(I-3,J-3)+REAL(I+3,J-3)+REAL(I-3,J+3)/4.0)+REAL(I,J) A "computer system" today is a network of multiple CPUs running autonomously, and are merely co-ordinated by the main CPU. Adding a faster disk to my system does not per se make the main CPU slower, although of course the improved performance means that the CPU load may go up purely because it is not being held back on I/O and can achieve higher throughput. Graphics cards are a very extreme form of moving things off the main CPU. They are special-purpose parallel CPUs which can number-crunch certain problems (such as making Tamriel beautiful) many orders of magnitude faster than the main CPU. And did I write "main CPU"? A typical PC today has four "main" CPUs on one die. There's even a network between those CPUs, and each CPU really does see the others as mere I/O devices onto which they can offload work. This is very much not the zero-sum game you imply. > I will stick to a REAL PDP-8. I know a TAD takes 1.5 us, not 1.7 us 70% of > the time and 1.4 us the other 30%. Real time OS's and CPU's are out there, > how else would my toaster know when to burn my toast. While general-purpose high-performance CPUs have rather uneven performance, the sheer brute force overcomes a lot of latency concerns. If I can perform a peak of 50 additions per nanosecond, but there are occasional microsecond-long stalls bringing the performance down to 90% of that, that's still more than good enough for general-purpose computing. If I need hard realtime performance with sub-microsecond accuracy, I've got a box of microcontrollers. A simple RISC CPU with a two-stage pipeline and zero wait state SRAM rather than a CPU cache, meaning all instructions have predictable timing, generally 1 or 2 cycles. Oh, and it is rated to go at up to 133MHz and costs €3 each in the retail version packaged up nicely on a PCB resembling a DIP40 chip and ready to plug into a breadboard, or $1 each if I'm buying the bare microcontrollers wholesale. In fact it contains *two* CPUs, although since they share the same RAM banks this can introduce contention which will affect execution time. There are two fixes for that problem: program it carefully such that contention does not happen, or just spend another dollar and add a second microcontroller. It can emulate that PDP-8 just fine, with exactly the same instruction timing, mostly because it can execute 100-200 instructions in 1.5 microseconds, so it'll spend much of its time twiddling its thumbs waiting for the next emulated clock tick. Twiddling its Thumb-2, in fact, so you have probably already worked out which microcontroller I'm referring to. > Only knowing the over all structure, of a program and hardware can one > optimize it. That's venturing into the "premature optimisation" which Knuth warns about. In anything but the most trivial of systems, there are enough unknown unknowns that pontificating about what should be slow does not reliably deliver the correct answer, and just running the code and measuring it to see which parts are taking too long is a much more productive use of one's time. --===============5891737272878735691==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Aug 17 14:33:17 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:33:10 -0500 Message-ID: <9fd50a60-505f-9c76-1a34-35ad86dbbf19@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3263610553473002824==" --===============3263610553473002824== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/16/24 23:13, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 10:18=E2=80=AFAM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 8/16/24 11:44, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Kevin Anderson via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I am surprised they have the estimated opening bids amounts for the DEC >>>> PDP-10 systems, as well as the IBM 7090, set so low. They can't be that >>>> numerous either. But then again, still too costly for another museum to >>>> just pick them up. >>>> >>> Based on my experience with Christie's, it's because they have no idea >> what >>> they're doing, and they didn't bother to hire an expert to help them. >> The whole idea of auctions is to get people sucked in, >> salivating over the "Deal" they might get, and then keep on >> bidding it up! It is all a scam to trap the unsophisticated >> enthusiast. >> >> I think Christie's, and other auction houses DO know what >> they are doing, and they do it very well. >> >> Jon >> > You are giving them far too much credit :) > Well, in this specific market niche, maybe, but I think the=20 big auction houses know how to hook "collectors" of all=20 flavors in, and get insane prices for items.=C2=A0 They know how=20 to make hype and buzz. Jon --===============3263610553473002824==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Aug 17 18:51:28 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 18:51:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9fd50a60-505f-9c76-1a34-35ad86dbbf19@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0675058091408037447==" --===============0675058091408037447== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this sale might propel computer collecting into a parallel market now= occupied by car collectors.=20 In car collecting, not all cars are classic collectibles, but are worth more = than scrap value because of condition, hobbyist wanting to fix up or maybe se= ntimentality. Think a Volkswagen bug for example. People buy those for variou= s reasons.=20 The classic cars that command big money are traded among very well-To-do coll= ectors.=20 I think Christies may be trying to duplicate the collectable car market with = collectable computers. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 17, 2024, at 07:33, Jon Elson via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 8/16/24 23:13, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 10:18=E2=80=AFAM Jon Elson via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 8/16/24 11:44, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>>> On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Kevin Anderson via cctalk < >>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> I am surprised they have the estimated opening bids amounts for the DEC >>>>> PDP-10 systems, as well as the IBM 7090, set so low. They can't be that >>>>> numerous either. But then again, still too costly for another museum to >>>>> just pick them up. >>>>>=20 >>>> Based on my experience with Christie's, it's because they have no idea >>> what >>>> they're doing, and they didn't bother to hire an expert to help them. >>> The whole idea of auctions is to get people sucked in, >>> salivating over the "Deal" they might get, and then keep on >>> bidding it up! It is all a scam to trap the unsophisticated >>> enthusiast. >>>=20 >>> I think Christie's, and other auction houses DO know what >>> they are doing, and they do it very well. >>>=20 >>> Jon >>>=20 >> You are giving them far too much credit :) >>=20 > Well, in this specific market niche, maybe, but I think the big auction hou= ses know how to hook "collectors" of all flavors in, and get insane prices fo= r items. They know how to make hype and buzz. >=20 > Jon >=20 --===============0675058091408037447==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Aug 17 20:19:56 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little off-topic but at least somewhat related: endianness Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 16:19:47 -0400 Message-ID: <7F3E7D0D-6883-4907-8B56-21CE52BAC321@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1754378405425698458==" --===============1754378405425698458== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 17, 2024, at 8:32 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... >> The problem is the native register width keeps changing with every cpu. C >> was quick and dirty language for the PDP 11, with 16 bit ints. They never >> planned UNIX or C or Hardware would change like it did, so one gets a >> patched version of C. That reminds me I use gets and have to get a older >> version of C. >=20 > They'd have had to be fairly blinkered to not notice the S/360 series which > had been around for years before the PDP-11 came out. It doesn't take a > particularly large crystal ball to realise that computers got smaller and > cheaper over time and features from larger machines such as wider registers > would filter down into minicomputers and microcomputers. Not to mention that K&R had experience with the PDP-7, which is an 18 bit wor= d oriented machine. And a whole lot of other machines of that era had word l= engths different from 16, and apart from the S/360 and the Nova most weren't = powers of two. > But C also seems to ignore a lot of the stuff we already knew in the 1960s > about how to design languages to avoid programmers making various common > mistakes, so those were quite large blinkers. They've never been taken off > either: when Rob and Ken went to work for Google they came up with a "new" > C-like language which makes many of the same mistakes, plus some new ones, > and it is also more bloated and can't even be used to write bare-metal stuff > which is one of the few things one might reasonably need C for in the first > place. C, especially its early incarnations, could be called a semi-assembly languag= e. For example, you can tell that struct declarations originally amounted si= mply to symbolic offsets (you could use a field name declared for struct a in= operations on types of struct b). And yes, ALGOL showed the way with a far = cleaner design, and ALGOL extensions existed to do all sorts of hard work wit= h it. Consider the Burroughs 5500 series and their software, all written in = ALGOL or slightly tweaked extensions of same, including the OS. > ... > Complex subroutine nesting can be done just fine on a CPU "optimised for" > running C. For example, you can synthesise an anonymous structure to hold > pointers to or copies of the outer variables used in the inner function, and > have the inner function take that as its first parameter. This is perfectly > doable in C itself, but nobody would bother because it's a lot of > error-prone boilerplate. But if the compiler does it automatically, it > suddenly opens up a lot more design options which result in cleaner code. Absolutely. The first ALGOL compiler was written for the Electrologica X1, a= machine with two accumulators plus one index register, a one address instruc= tion set, and no stack or complex addressing modes. It worked just fine, it = simply meant that you had to do some things in software that other machines m= ight implement in hardware (or, more likely, in microcode). Or consider the = CDC 6000 mainframes, RISC machines with no stack, no addressing modes, and no= t just an ALGOL 60 but even an ALGOL 68 compiler. On the other hand there was the successor of the X1, the X8, which adds a sta= ck both for data and subroutine calling, as well as "display" addressing mode= s to deal directly with variable references in nested blocks up to 63 deep. = Yes, that makes the generated code from the ALGOL compiler shorter, but it do= esn't necessarily make things any faster and I don't know that such features = were ever seen again. paul --===============1754378405425698458==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 23:17:20 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 18:17:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4969023723947292102==" --===============4969023723947292102== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I still remember how amazing it was to watch the Linc-8 at VCF (west) 10 being troubleshot by previous developers. I swear I stood there (trying to be out of the way) longer than most exhibits just in amazement how they were looking at map size schematics and running test programs that still felt like futuristic science fiction. In unrelated news, I saw the auction has been posted to slashdot :scream:. Not sure if there is still the slashdot effect but many more potential bidders will be eying the auction now. On Fri, Aug 16, 2024, 5:18 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Such an incredible collection, wish I could have visited years ago in its > prime presentation. So many great artifacts, at least fairly certain > they'll go to good homes. > > The LINC-8 and Micral-N in particular appeal to me - but I'm in no position > to bid on anything this year. > > If anyone does know where those two items end up, look me up - maybe > someday they'll need yet another new home! Especially if they are in > possible working condition. IMO, electronics prior to 1975 become > exponentially harder to keep in working order. > > Steve v* > --===============4969023723947292102==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Aug 17 23:34:17 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 23:34:09 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2159807786488423216==" --===============2159807786488423216== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Word got around. Most aren=E2=80=99t gonna bid because of price but they=E2= =80=99ll watch prices because a lot of people have the same systems. After t= his auction, you=E2=80=99ll see a bunch of stuff on eBay had even more astron= omical prices than they=E2=80=99re currently asking. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 17, 2024, at 16:17, John Herron via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI still remember how amazing it was to watch the Linc-8 at VCF (we= st) 10 > being troubleshot by previous developers. I swear I stood there (trying to > be out of the way) longer than most exhibits just in amazement how they > were looking at map size schematics and running test programs that still > felt like futuristic science fiction. >=20 > In unrelated news, I saw the auction has been posted to slashdot :scream:. > Not sure if there is still the slashdot effect but many more potential > bidders will be eying the auction now. >=20 >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024, 5:18 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >> Such an incredible collection, wish I could have visited years ago in its >> prime presentation. So many great artifacts, at least fairly certain >> they'll go to good homes. >>=20 >> The LINC-8 and Micral-N in particular appeal to me - but I'm in no position >> to bid on anything this year. >>=20 >> If anyone does know where those two items end up, look me up - maybe >> someday they'll need yet another new home! Especially if they are in >> possible working condition. IMO, electronics prior to 1975 become >> exponentially harder to keep in working order. >>=20 >> Steve v* >>=20 --===============2159807786488423216==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sat Aug 17 23:44:54 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF Midwest DEC "Nut" Party Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 17:51:44 -0500 Message-ID: <0cd10d70-1dac-438a-8074-afdb89be9698@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2793328784183581610==" --===============2793328784183581610== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For all of you who are DEC computer nuts (or aficionados) we will have our second annual DEC "Nut" pizza get together after the show at my house on Saturday (Sept 7th) after 7PM. I am unemployed so I ask all who attend to contribute to the cost of the pizza (beer and pop will be provided). Please see me at the show for my address. I hope to see you there.         Mike Katz         +1 (773) 414-1044 (Cell) --===============2793328784183581610==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Aug 18 01:01:39 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Midwest DEC "Nut" Party Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 20:01:33 -0500 Message-ID: <519d9093-65d4-62ca-002f-8fead5b02e01@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <0cd10d70-1dac-438a-8074-afdb89be9698@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6622716889192227419==" --===============6622716889192227419== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/17/24 17:51, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > For all of you who are DEC computer nuts (or aficionados) > we will have our second annual DEC "Nut" pizza get > together after the show at my house on Saturday (Sept 7th) > after 7PM. > > I am unemployed so I ask all who attend to contribute to > the cost of the pizza (beer and pop will be provided). > > Please see me at the show for my address. A general map might be helpful, my wife's GPS was SO LOST trying to find your place! Hopefully, I will have my DG Nova/Tandem friend along.  He has GOOD war stories! Jon --===============6622716889192227419==-- From useddec@gmail.com Mon Aug 19 02:51:52 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] M920 (unibus backplane jumper) to M935 (omnibus) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 21:51:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6495369069266229612==" --===============6495369069266229612== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone remember how this is done? Or the BC11- to the one used in 8s? Thanks, Paul --===============6495369069266229612==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Mon Aug 19 14:34:54 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: M920 (unibus backplane jumper) to M935 (omnibus) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 09:34:46 -0500 Message-ID: <1988be4b-793d-6a8e-277f-4f58fada9f7c@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7283502978509332667==" --===============7283502978509332667== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/18/24 21:51, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone remember how this is done? Or the BC11- to the one used in 8s? > > Thanks, Paul I seem to recall that the M920 has two boards with the double-wide DEC connectors, that had a plastic spacer riveted between them, and about 6" of the special DEC ribbon cable soldered to each board. Jon --===============7283502978509332667==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Aug 19 15:28:54 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: M920 (unibus backplane jumper) to M935 (omnibus) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 11:28:44 -0400 Message-ID: <3801F1D7-A847-44A7-8118-826BB6287822@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <1988be4b-793d-6a8e-277f-4f58fada9f7c@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7777898066785297180==" --===============7777898066785297180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 19, 2024, at 10:34 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 8/18/24 21:51, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: >> Does anyone remember how this is done? Or the BC11- to the one used in 8s? >>=20 >> Thanks, Paul >=20 > I seem to recall that the M920 has two boards with the double-wide DEC conn= ectors, that had a plastic spacer riveted between them, and about 6" of the s= pecial DEC ribbon cable soldered to each board. >=20 > Jon Yes, and there is a variation on that (M9201???) that has taller boards and 6= feet or so of that cable zigzag-folded in between. That is used every so ma= ny boxes to keep the reflections under control. See the Unibus handbook. paul --===============7777898066785297180==-- From useddec@gmail.com Mon Aug 19 15:35:41 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: M920 (unibus backplane jumper) to M935 (omnibus) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 10:35:24 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3801F1D7-A847-44A7-8118-826BB6287822@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2571718163816982105==" --===============2571718163816982105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, that is the M9202. I remember there being a hack to convert M920 from an 11 to a M935 for an 8. On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 10:28 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Aug 19, 2024, at 10:34 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 8/18/24 21:51, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > >> Does anyone remember how this is done? Or the BC11- to the one used in > 8s? > >> > >> Thanks, Paul > > > > I seem to recall that the M920 has two boards with the double-wide DEC > connectors, that had a plastic spacer riveted between them, and about 6" of > the special DEC ribbon cable soldered to each board. > > > > Jon > > Yes, and there is a variation on that (M9201???) that has taller boards > and 6 feet or so of that cable zigzag-folded in between. That is used > every so many boxes to keep the reflections under control. See the Unibus > handbook. > > paul --===============2571718163816982105==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Aug 20 12:34:38 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 08:34:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5626283585203335429==" --===============5626283585203335429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > I picked up a bare bones 68000 single board computer, and the only OS is > is a hacked CPM/68000 version in C. Any guess what compiler/assembler > was used back then and on what host? Does one have sub directories? > > > What does the Sage II use? --===============5626283585203335429==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Tue Aug 20 18:17:20 2024 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: M920 (unibus backplane jumper) to M935 (omnibus) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 14:17:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2250991413121181593==" --===============2250991413121181593== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 11:35 AM Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > I remember there being a hack to convert M920 from an 11 to a M935 for an 8. I'd love to see that hack. I could have really used it in the 80s. -ethan --===============2250991413121181593==-- From useddec@gmail.com Wed Aug 21 10:03:31 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PC04/05 punches, card reader, 11/40, 45, 70 front panels Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 05:03:13 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2588876765072850324==" --===============2588876765072850324== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found while cleaning and getting ready for VCFMW: 2 either NOS or refurbished paper tape punches for PC04/05. I would say these are rather uncommon, if not rare. Documation M200 card reader and a few boxes of cards. Also PDP-8 and 11 interfaces. Various front panels before they go on ebay. I will trade for coins at VCF Please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul --===============2588876765072850324==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Aug 21 17:43:42 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Computers in the Paul Allen collection Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 13:43:13 -0400 Message-ID: <80CE9F63-EFAE-420A-BC47-714EB67BF934@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6197471135034854675==" --===============6197471135034854675== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know how many of you have read through the whole Christie's listings,= so I figured I'd summarize the computers that are in the Paul Allen auctions. There are two auctions: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-com= puting-paul-g-allen-collection/lots/3726 starting Friday, and https://www.ch= risties.com/en/auction/pushing-boundaries-ingenuity-from-the-paul-g-allen-col= lection-30730/ on September 10th. In the first one, I see these computers (ignoring microcomputers and personal= machines like Tandy computers): Lot 102, LGP-30 (and other stuff) Lot 106, IBM 650 Lot 107, IBM 7094 Lot 111, PDP-5 Lot 112, PDP-10 (KA10) Lot 115, Straight 8 Lot 116, Linc-8 Lot 117, PDP-7 Lot 118, CDC 6500 Lot 119, Xerox Sigma 9 Lot 122, HP 2100S Log 125, PDP-10 (KI10) Lot 135, IBM system 6 Lot 137, DECsystem-2020 Lot 138, LISP machine Lot 139, Xerox Star Lot 144, HP 1000 Lot 147, Cray-2 Lot 149, System Concepts SC40 In the second one: Lot 16, Bendix G-15 Lot 17, CDC 160 Lot 30, Xerox Alto Lot 32, Cray-1 Some of these seem like things that are not totally out of reach; I wonder if= some of you are thinking about bidding. paul --===============6197471135034854675==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Wed Aug 21 18:28:09 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computers in the Paul Allen collection Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 11:27:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <80CE9F63-EFAE-420A-BC47-714EB67BF934@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7101230920617083178==" --===============7101230920617083178== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 10:43=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I don't know how many of you have read through the whole Christie's > listings, so I figured I'd summarize the computers that are in the Paul > Allen auctions. > > There are two auctions: > https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-co= llection/lots/3726 > starting Friday, and > https://www.christies.com/en/auction/pushing-boundaries-ingenuity-from-the-= paul-g-allen-collection-30730/ > on September 10th. > > In the first one, I see these computers (ignoring microcomputers and > personal machines like Tandy computers): > > Lot 102, LGP-30 (and other stuff) > Lot 106, IBM 650 > Lot 107, IBM 7094 > Lot 111, PDP-5 > Lot 112, PDP-10 (KA10) > Lot 115, Straight 8 > Lot 116, Linc-8 > Lot 117, PDP-7 > Lot 118, CDC 6500 > Lot 119, Xerox Sigma 9 > Lot 122, HP 2100S > Log 125, PDP-10 (KI10) > Lot 135, IBM system 6 > Lot 137, DECsystem-2020 > Lot 138, LISP machine > Lot 139, Xerox Star > Lot 144, HP 1000 > Lot 147, Cray-2 > Lot 149, System Concepts SC40 > > In the second one: > > Lot 16, Bendix G-15 > Lot 17, CDC 160 > Lot 30, Xerox Alto > Lot 32, Cray-1 > > Some of these seem like things that are not totally out of reach; I wonder > if some of you are thinking about bidding. > > paul > If an HP 2100S is really worth USD 10,000 - USD 15,000, I would happily sell my 2100A for a lot less than that, although with only half the core memory populated. USD 5,000 - USD 8,000 also seems a bit much for an HP A900. I'd happily sell an A900 for a lot less than that. Jesse/Cypress probably would too. Although you wouldn't get the Strobe Data sticker. --===============7101230920617083178==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Aug 21 19:25:11 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computers in the Paul Allen collection Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 15:25:03 -0400 Message-ID: <909CBD7A-125B-4253-B028-F34874C0DEC0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7392829253001992406==" --===============7392829253001992406== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 21, 2024, at 2:27 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > If an HP 2100S is really worth USD 10,000 - USD 15,000, I would happily > sell my 2100A for a lot less than that, although with only half the core > memory populated. >=20 > USD 5,000 - USD 8,000 also seems a bit much for an HP A900. I'd happily > sell an A900 for a lot less than that. Jesse/Cypress probably would too. > Although you wouldn't get the Strobe Data sticker. I would not take those Christie's estimates all that seriously. They don't k= now much about computers; no reason to believe those numbers have much connec= tion to reality. paul --===============7392829253001992406==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Wed Aug 21 20:03:32 2024 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computers in the Paul Allen collection Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 20:03:22 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <909CBD7A-125B-4253-B028-F34874C0DEC0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1307383453595857451==" --===============1307383453595857451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone want to guess what the Xerox Alto will (should) sell for? 73 Eugene W2HX My Youtube Channel:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos =20 -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning via cctalk =20 Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2024 3:25 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computers in the Paul Allen collection > On Aug 21, 2024, at 2:27 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > If an HP 2100S is really worth USD 10,000 - USD 15,000, I would=20 > happily sell my 2100A for a lot less than that, although with only=20 > half the core memory populated. >=20 > USD 5,000 - USD 8,000 also seems a bit much for an HP A900. I'd=20 > happily sell an A900 for a lot less than that. Jesse/Cypress probably would= too. > Although you wouldn't get the Strobe Data sticker. I would not take those Christie's estimates all that seriously. They don't k= now much about computers; no reason to believe those numbers have much connec= tion to reality. paul --===============1307383453595857451==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Aug 21 20:43:50 2024 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computers in the Paul Allen collection Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 21:43:44 +0100 Message-ID: <2df701daf40a$d0bba660$7232f320$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CPH0PR12MB8821F259C091AD0C8E8EA064B58E2=40PH0PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?8821=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3740087046008012947==" --===============3740087046008012947== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't think you can make sensible prediction. Look Apple I prices. The last documented sale was 2010 and $30k. I would say its desirable, so if two people fight who knows what it might get too. On the other hand, if only one person bids it could flop. I think this is highly unlikely.... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: W2HX via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2024 9:03 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: W2HX > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computers in the Paul Allen collection > > Anyone want to guess what the Xerox Alto will (should) sell for? > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2024 3:25 PM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Paul Koning > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computers in the Paul Allen collection > > > > > On Aug 21, 2024, at 2:27 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > > > > ... > > If an HP 2100S is really worth USD 10,000 - USD 15,000, I would > > happily sell my 2100A for a lot less than that, although with only > > half the core memory populated. > > > > USD 5,000 - USD 8,000 also seems a bit much for an HP A900. I'd > > happily sell an A900 for a lot less than that. Jesse/Cypress probably would too. > > Although you wouldn't get the Strobe Data sticker. > > I would not take those Christie's estimates all that seriously. They don't know > much about computers; no reason to believe those numbers have much > connection to reality. > > paul --===============3740087046008012947==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Aug 21 20:50:25 2024 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computers in the Paul Allen collection Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 16:43:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7566831731276668095==" --===============7566831731276668095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 21 Aug 2024, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 10:43=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > >> I don't know how many of you have read through the whole Christie's >> listings, so I figured I'd summarize the computers that are in the Paul >> Allen auctions. > > If an HP 2100S is really worth USD 10,000 - USD 15,000, I would happily > sell my 2100A for a lot less than that, although with only half the core > memory populated. There's an HP 2100S on Epay for $999 BIN, but it doesn't have any boards.= =20 It's been there for a long time. The same seller has a 2100A at the same=20 price, also with no boards. I'd say $2,000 would be tops for a 2100S, fully=20 populated. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============7566831731276668095==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Fri Aug 23 12:07:26 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 08:07:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181F45C2558F59ADCDEBAF5E4822=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8536139555342934676==" --===============8536139555342934676== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 5:28=E2=80=AFAM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > I think this sale might propel computer collecting into a parallel market n= ow occupied by car collectors. > In car collecting, not all cars are classic collectibles, but are worth mor= e than scrap value because of condition, hobbyist wanting to fix up or maybe = sentimentality. Think a Volkswagen bug for example. People buy those for vari= ous reasons. > The classic cars that command big money are traded among very well-To-do co= llectors. > I think Christies may be trying to duplicate the collectable car market wit= h collectable computers. > I think we getting to that point and to show this I have the link for RR Auctions collection that closed yesterday and look at the sales numbers. https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/auction-details/698?page=3D2&itemQty=3D96&= view=3Dgallery&sort=3Dtime&cat=3D0 I'm intrigued by the magazines being graded now. I think I'm one of the few who enjoy the magazines and so seeing them graded and sold is odd to me. I have been talking to people out ticket the vintage computer community who happen to like old technology and with money to spend. They have taken an interest in the hobby and are dropping good money on things they want. What I don't think we have yet is many of the speculators that the classic car hobby has. --===============8536139555342934676==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Aug 23 12:33:14 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 08:32:54 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1070066154975248473==" --===============1070066154975248473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 23, 2024 at 8:07=E2=80=AFAM Christian Liendo via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 5:28=E2=80=AFAM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: > > I think this sale might propel computer collecting into a parallel > market now occupied by car collectors. > > In car collecting, not all cars are classic collectibles, but are worth > more than scrap value because of condition, hobbyist wanting to fix up or > maybe sentimentality. Think a Volkswagen bug for example. People buy those > for various reasons. > > The classic cars that command big money are traded among very well-To-do > collectors. > > I think Christies may be trying to duplicate the collectable car market > with collectable computers. > > > > I think we getting to that point and to show this I have the link for > RR Auctions collection that closed yesterday and look at the sales > numbers. > > > https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/auction-details/698?page=3D2&itemQty=3D9= 6&view=3Dgallery&sort=3Dtime&cat=3D0 > > I'm intrigued by the magazines being graded now. I think I'm one of > the few who enjoy the magazines and so seeing them graded and sold is > odd to me. > > I have been talking to people out ticket the vintage computer > community who happen to like old technology and with money to spend. > > They have taken an interest in the hobby and are dropping good money > on things they want. > > What I don't think we have yet is many of the speculators that the > classic car hobby has. > $3400 for the premier issue of Mac World? Who would pay that much for this? Bill --===============1070066154975248473==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Aug 23 12:36:36 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 08:36:25 -0400 Message-ID: <70c263ac-5bf3-4119-8498-949bd1f14845@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5390809120197748170==" --===============5390809120197748170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Space Command remote control went for $1200...... Yeah, why not? On 8/23/2024 8:07 AM, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 5:28=E2=80=AFAM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: >> I think this sale might propel computer collecting into a parallel market = now occupied by car collectors. >> In car collecting, not all cars are classic collectibles, but are worth mo= re than scrap value because of condition, hobbyist wanting to fix up or maybe= sentimentality. Think a Volkswagen bug for example. People buy those for var= ious reasons. >> The classic cars that command big money are traded among very well-To-do c= ollectors. >> I think Christies may be trying to duplicate the collectable car market wi= th collectable computers. >> >=20 > I think we getting to that point and to show this I have the link for > RR Auctions collection that closed yesterday and look at the sales > numbers. >=20 > https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/auction-details/698?page=3D2&itemQty=3D9= 6&view=3Dgallery&sort=3Dtime&cat=3D0 >=20 > I'm intrigued by the magazines being graded now. I think I'm one of > the few who enjoy the magazines and so seeing them graded and sold is > odd to me. >=20 > I have been talking to people out ticket the vintage computer > community who happen to like old technology and with money to spend. >=20 > They have taken an interest in the hobby and are dropping good money > on things they want. >=20 > What I don't think we have yet is many of the speculators that the > classic car hobby has. --===============5390809120197748170==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Aug 23 13:23:45 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 09:23:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6163661758219779260==" --===============6163661758219779260== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 17, 2024, at 7:17 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I still remember how amazing it was to watch the Linc-8 at VCF (west) 10 > being troubleshot by previous developers. I swear I stood there (trying to > be out of the way) longer than most exhibits just in amazement how they > were looking at map size schematics and running test programs that still > felt like futuristic science fiction. That reminds me of the PDP-11 20th anniversary event at DECUS (in New Orleans= , I think) where we (RSTS team) brought in an 11/05 and tried to get it to ru= n RSTS-11 V4A. The machine was having trouble, including a DECtape that was = acting very strangely indeed. At one point Tom Stockebrand walked by and glanced at the system. Then he lo= oked more closely, inspecting the indicator lights on the DECtape drive. The= n he commented "wait... that should not be possible!" I think he spent a whi= le helping debug the machine. In the end I think we had it running a "blinke= nlights" loop since it couldn't boot a full OS. But it was neat to have the = white-haired inventor of DECtape help us with that machine. paul --===============6163661758219779260==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Aug 23 14:49:26 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 09:49:17 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3713780696918979146==" --===============3713780696918979146== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug, I will call Sallam in a little bit. Thank you, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mike On 8/23/2024 8:23 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Aug 17, 2024, at 7:17 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >> >> I still remember how amazing it was to watch the Linc-8 at VCF (west) 10 >> being troubleshot by previous developers. I swear I stood there (trying to >> be out of the way) longer than most exhibits just in amazement how they >> were looking at map size schematics and running test programs that still >> felt like futuristic science fiction. > That reminds me of the PDP-11 20th anniversary event at DECUS (in New Orlea= ns, I think) where we (RSTS team) brought in an 11/05 and tried to get it to = run RSTS-11 V4A. The machine was having trouble, including a DECtape that wa= s acting very strangely indeed. > > At one point Tom Stockebrand walked by and glanced at the system. Then he = looked more closely, inspecting the indicator lights on the DECtape drive. T= hen he commented "wait... that should not be possible!" I think he spent a w= hile helping debug the machine. In the end I think we had it running a "blin= kenlights" loop since it couldn't boot a full OS. But it was neat to have th= e white-haired inventor of DECtape help us with that machine. > > paul > > --===============3713780696918979146==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Aug 23 18:24:57 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 18:24:50 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6515162249738848853==" --===============6515162249738848853== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The moneyed collector world is a lot different than us people who collect and= like to fix and see things run again.=20 The reason that item sold for that high a price is because the buyer =E2=80= =9Ccould afford to pay that price=E2=80=9D. In other words =E2=80=9Cbecause i= can=E2=80=9D. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 23, 2024, at 05:33, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, Aug 23, 2024 at 8:07=E2=80=AFAM Christian Liendo via cctal= k < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 5:28=E2=80=AFAM Wayne S via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> I think this sale might propel computer collecting into a parallel >> market now occupied by car collectors. >>> In car collecting, not all cars are classic collectibles, but are worth >> more than scrap value because of condition, hobbyist wanting to fix up or >> maybe sentimentality. Think a Volkswagen bug for example. People buy those >> for various reasons. >>> The classic cars that command big money are traded among very well-To-do >> collectors. >>> I think Christies may be trying to duplicate the collectable car market >> with collectable computers. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I think we getting to that point and to show this I have the link for >> RR Auctions collection that closed yesterday and look at the sales >> numbers. >>=20 >>=20 >> https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/auction-details/698?page=3D2&itemQty=3D= 96&view=3Dgallery&sort=3Dtime&cat=3D0 >>=20 >> I'm intrigued by the magazines being graded now. I think I'm one of >> the few who enjoy the magazines and so seeing them graded and sold is >> odd to me. >>=20 >> I have been talking to people out ticket the vintage computer >> community who happen to like old technology and with money to spend. >>=20 >> They have taken an interest in the hobby and are dropping good money >> on things they want. >>=20 >> What I don't think we have yet is many of the speculators that the >> classic car hobby has. >>=20 >=20 > $3400 for the premier issue of Mac World? Who would pay that much for this? > Bill --===============6515162249738848853==-- From stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com Fri Aug 23 19:29:21 2024 From: Stephen Pereira To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Free Vintage Computers - Manchester NH area Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 15:29:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0559206255393868404==" --===============0559206255393868404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I am winnowing down my collection of Vintage Computer stuff to make space for= other storage needs, and to make life a little easier on those who I will ev= entually leave behind. I have the following stuff available for free to pickup in the Manchester NH = area: - Sun Sparc Classic, with hard disk, CDROM drive, keyboard, some documentatio= n, very large Sun video CRT. - Power Macintosh 7200, with keyboard - Power Macintosh 7300, with keyboard - Osborne I (3 inch screen) - Osborne II (5 inch screen) - a couple of original Macintosh powerbook laptops - Tandy 2800 laptop (286 + 287, EGA LCD screen), plus another for spare parts - some sort of Toshiba laptop - Macintosh Powerbook clamshell, with USB, Firewire, & CDROM drive - boxes of books & parts & cables I have a few photos of these as currently stored in my basement. All =E2=80= =9Cworking when put into storage=E2=80=9D. The basement is dry and dehumidif= ied. I cannot vouch for working condition today because of decaying capacito= rs and internal batteries over the past 15-20 years. I would greatly appreciate someone to take the entire lot. =20 I just do not have the energy to go through the eBay Selling & shipping with = all this stuff. If anyone is interested, please email me and we talk and I can provide the fe= w photos and my address for pickup. smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE --===============0559206255393868404==-- From schuld@radionut.net Fri Aug 23 20:02:22 2024 From: David Schuler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free Vintage Computers - Manchester NH area Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 15:57:15 -0400 Message-ID: <842024be-1534-4edc-912f-8a96f01fc1f0@radionut.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7205837451949212261==" --===============7205837451949212261== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen: I'm not "jumping at the bit", but if you should NOT find another person who is interested in the Osborne I & II systems, I would be interested.=C2=A0 It's not a priority to me, but I would not want to see them go to the junk pile, and would be able to take them if nobody else is interested in taking them. Would you have any discs / manuals that go with the Osborne systems? Also, when you say boxes of "parts", would it be just computer-level parts (boards, etc), or might it be at the component level (Z80's, 74xx TTL parts, passives, etc)? If you have components, I might also be interested in those.=C2=A0 If you could provide info / photos, that would hel= p. I have friends down in the Manchester area, so if it was necessary to (re)move these items quickly, I could make a few calls and get a friend to pick the items up... or else I will probably be down in Concord/Manchester NH area sometime in Sept/Oct and could make arrangements with you for pickup. THANKS for considering my interest. Dave Schuler - KB1YGP (Amateur/Extra) Jericho VT schuld2(a)comcast.net On 8/23/2024 3:29 PM, Stephen Pereira via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > > I am winnowing down my collection of Vintage Computer stuff to make space f= or other storage needs, and to make life a little easier on those who I will = eventually leave behind. > > I have the following stuff available for free to pickup in the Manchester N= H area: > > - Sun Sparc Classic, with hard disk, CDROM drive, keyboard, some documentat= ion, very large Sun video CRT. > - Power Macintosh 7200, with keyboard > - Power Macintosh 7300, with keyboard > - Osborne I (3 inch screen) > - Osborne II (5 inch screen) > - a couple of original Macintosh powerbook laptops > - Tandy 2800 laptop (286 + 287, EGA LCD screen), plus another for spare par= ts > - some sort of Toshiba laptop > - Macintosh Powerbook clamshell, with USB, Firewire, & CDROM drive > - boxes of books & parts & cables > > I have a few photos of these as currently stored in my basement. All =E2= =80=9Cworking when put into storage=E2=80=9D. The basement is dry and dehumi= dified. I cannot vouch for working condition today because of decaying capac= itors and internal batteries over the past 15-20 years. > > I would greatly appreciate someone to take the entire lot. > I just do not have the energy to go through the eBay Selling & shipping wit= h all this stuff. > If anyone is interested, please email me and we talk and I can provide the = few photos and my address for pickup. > > smp > - - - > Stephen Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > --===============7205837451949212261==-- From stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com Sat Aug 24 17:02:58 2024 From: Stephen Pereira To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free Vintage Computers - Manchester NH area Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 13:02:42 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3294270695626944995==" --===============3294270695626944995== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I have been contacted by an individual who will be taking the entire lot off = my hands. Should this deal fall through for some reason, I will re-post my offer. smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE --===============3294270695626944995==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Mon Aug 26 15:12:52 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NSA releases copy of internal lecture delivered by computing giant Rear Adm. Grace Hopper Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2024 11:12:36 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1204114537297978476==" --===============1204114537297978476== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://www.nsa.gov/Press-Room/Press-Releases-Statements/Press-Release-View/A= rticle/3884041/nsa-releases-copy-of-internal-lecture-delivered-by-computing-g= iant-rear-adm-gra/ FORT MEADE, Md. =E2=80=94 In one of the more unique public proactive transparency record releases for the National Security Agency (NSA) to date, NSA has released a digital copy of a lecture that then-Capt. Grace Hopper gave agency employees on August 19, 1982. The lecture, =E2=80=9CFuture Possibilities: Data, Hardware, Software, and People,=E2=80=9D features Capt. Hopper discussing some of the potential future challenges of protecting information. She also provided valuable insight on leadership and her experiences breaking barriers in the fields of computer science and mathematics. Rear Adm. Hopper was an American computer scientist, mathematician, and United States Navy rear admiral. One of the first programmers of the Harvard Mark I computer, she was a pioneer of computer programming. Hopper was the first to devise the theory of machine-independent programming languages, and the FLOW-MATIC programming language she created using this theory was later extended to create COBOL, an early high-level programming language still in use today. In 2016, President Obama posthumously awarded Rear Adm. Hopper the Presidential Medal of Freedom =E2=80=94 the Nation=E2=80=99s highest civi= lian honor, awarded to individuals who have made especially meritorious contributions to the security or national interest of the U.S. =E2=80=94 for her remarkable influence on the field of computer science. While NSA did not possess the equipment required to access the footage from the media format in which it was preserved, NSA deemed the footage to be of significant public interest and requested assistance from the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) to retrieve the footage. NARA=E2=80=99s Special Media Department was able to retrieve the footage contained on two 1=E2=80=99 APEX tapes and transferred the footage to NSA to be reviewed for public release. NSA recognizes Rear Adm. Hopper=E2=80=99s significant contributions as a trailblazing computer scientist and mathematician, but also as a leader. "The most important thing I've accomplished, other than building the compiler, is training young people," Rear Adm. Hopper once said. =E2=80=9CThey come to me, you know, and say, 'Do you think we can do this?' I say, 'Try it.' And I back 'em up. They need that. I keep track of them as they get older and I stir 'em up at intervals so they don't forget to take chances." --===============1204114537297978476==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Aug 26 16:45:21 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NSA releases copy of internal lecture delivered by computing giant Rear Adm. Grace Hopper Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2024 12:44:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6734995400809260329==" --===============6734995400809260329== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 26, 2024, at 11:12 AM, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote: >=20 > https://www.nsa.gov/Press-Room/Press-Releases-Statements/Press-Release-View= /Article/3884041/nsa-releases-copy-of-internal-lecture-delivered-by-computing= -giant-rear-adm-gra/ Nice, thanks! My wife and I still remember attending a lecture by Grace Hopper at DEC. For= a while she, and a handful of other early computer pioneers, was a DEC emplo= yee and traveled widely delivering lectures on her work. A detail we both remember well is her way to let the audience understand the = small time units that computers work with. She showed us a foot-long piece = of wire and said "This is a nanosecond". (I just worked out the correspondin= g visualization for a picosecond: a grain of salt. Hm...) paul --===============6734995400809260329==-- From ggs@shiresoft.com Tue Aug 27 04:46:51 2024 From: Guy Sotomayor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NSA releases copy of internal lecture delivered by computing giant Rear Adm. Grace Hopper Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2024 21:20:08 -0700 Message-ID: <0a638927-858a-44cd-84c1-e6e4da1ef01e@shiresoft.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8906680928472474119==" --===============8906680928472474119== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I watched the first part and have started the 2nd.=C2=A0 She's a great=20 lecturer with lots of insight. I met her in 1974 and was able to have a short (10-15 minute) discussion=20 with her after her talk.=C2=A0 Great lady. TTFN - Guy On 8/26/24 08:12, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote: > https://www.nsa.gov/Press-Room/Press-Releases-Statements/Press-Release-View= /Article/3884041/nsa-releases-copy-of-internal-lecture-delivered-by-computing= -giant-rear-adm-gra/ > > FORT MEADE, Md. =E2=80=94 In one of the more unique public proactive > transparency record releases for the National Security Agency (NSA) to > date, NSA has released a digital copy of a lecture that then-Capt. > Grace Hopper gave agency employees on August 19, 1982. > > The lecture, =E2=80=9CFuture Possibilities: Data, Hardware, Software, and > People,=E2=80=9D features Capt. Hopper discussing some of the potential fut= ure > challenges of protecting information. She also provided valuable > insight on leadership and her experiences breaking barriers in the > fields of computer science and mathematics. > > Rear Adm. Hopper was an American computer scientist, mathematician, > and United States Navy rear admiral. One of the first programmers of > the Harvard Mark I computer, she was a pioneer of computer > programming. Hopper was the first to devise the theory of > machine-independent programming languages, and the FLOW-MATIC > programming language she created using this theory was later extended > to create COBOL, an early high-level programming language still in use > today. In 2016, President Obama posthumously awarded Rear Adm. Hopper > the Presidential Medal of Freedom =E2=80=94 the Nation=E2=80=99s highest ci= vilian > honor, awarded to individuals who have made especially meritorious > contributions to the security or national interest of the U.S. =E2=80=94 for > her remarkable influence on the field of computer science. > > While NSA did not possess the equipment required to access the footage > from the media format in which it was preserved, NSA deemed the > footage to be of significant public interest and requested assistance > from the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) to > retrieve the footage. NARA=E2=80=99s Special Media Department was able to > retrieve the footage contained on two 1=E2=80=99 APEX tapes and transferred > the footage to NSA to be reviewed for public release. > > NSA recognizes Rear Adm. Hopper=E2=80=99s significant contributions as a > trailblazing computer scientist and mathematician, but also as a > leader. > > "The most important thing I've accomplished, other than building the > compiler, is training young people," Rear Adm. Hopper once said. =E2=80=9CT= hey > come to me, you know, and say, 'Do you think we can do this?' I say, > 'Try it.' And I back 'em up. They need that. I keep track of them as > they get older and I stir 'em up at intervals so they don't forget to > take chances." --=20 TTFN - Guy --===============8906680928472474119==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Aug 27 14:10:54 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 07:10:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6343132759435001071==" --===============6343132759435001071== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Aug 23, 2024, 5:33 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > $3400 for the premier issue of Mac World? Who would pay that much for > this? > Bill > That's pretty much what I'm thinking for the vast majority of this stuff. The Altair 8800 issue of Poptronics sold for arounda K. A lot of this stuff can be found on eBay at any given time for anywhere from10 to 50 cents on the RR Auction dollar. Sellam > --===============6343132759435001071==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Tue Aug 27 16:14:13 2024 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 17:13:28 +0100 Message-ID: <28e7b39e-dbe6-4b05-be8c-ef00858122a4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8579182392526290240==" --===============8579182392526290240== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do have a 1975 Byte#1 issue magazine unopened in its original Byte=20 mailing paper wrap. Should be worth a few more pennies to read this issue for the first=20 time. Or should I ? On 27.08.2024 15:10, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Aug 23, 2024, 5:33 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > >> $3400 for the premier issue of Mac World? Who would pay that much for >> this? >> Bill >> > That's pretty much what I'm thinking for the vast majority of this stuff. > The Altair 8800 issue of Poptronics sold for arounda K. > > A lot of this stuff can be found on eBay at any given time for anywhere > from10 to 50 cents on the RR Auction dollar. > > Sellam > --===============8579182392526290240==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Tue Aug 27 16:30:48 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 12:30:42 -0400 Message-ID: <13a09cf8-9d33-4247-9348-2bdb79e66ffd@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <28e7b39e-dbe6-4b05-be8c-ef00858122a4@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4031273619172648052==" --===============4031273619172648052== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I once had a copy of the very first byte magazine, personally handed to me by the original publisher, Wayne Green, W2NSD, as I had just signed up for a one-year subscription. I hesitated to sign up for a year because Wayne had two previous magazine failures, RPT magazine and FM magazine. Apparently it was third time lucky for him! cheers, Nigel On 2024-08-27 12:13, osi.superboard via cctalk wrote: > I do have a 1975 Byte#1 issue magazine unopened in its original Byte > mailing paper wrap. > > Should be worth a few more pennies to read this issue for the first > time. Or should I ? > > > On 27.08.2024 15:10, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2024, 5:33 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk >> >> wrote: >> >>> $3400 for the premier issue of Mac World?  Who would pay that much for >>> this? >>> Bill >>> >> That's pretty much what I'm thinking for the vast majority of this >> stuff. >> The Altair 8800 issue of Poptronics sold for arounda K. >> >> A lot of this stuff can be found on eBay at any given time for anywhere >> from10 to 50 cents on the RR Auction dollar. >> >> Sellam >> -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============4031273619172648052==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Aug 27 17:29:14 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:28:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <28e7b39e-dbe6-4b05-be8c-ef00858122a4@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2693341819116001538==" --===============2693341819116001538== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keep it wrapped and sell it. You can read it online. Sellam On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 9:39 AM osi.superboard via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I do have a 1975 Byte#1 issue magazine unopened in its original Byte > mailing paper wrap. > > Should be worth a few more pennies to read this issue for the first > time. Or should I ? > > > On 27.08.2024 15:10, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2024, 5:33 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> $3400 for the premier issue of Mac World? Who would pay that much for > >> this? > >> Bill > >> > > That's pretty much what I'm thinking for the vast majority of this stuff. > > The Altair 8800 issue of Poptronics sold for arounda K. > > > > A lot of this stuff can be found on eBay at any given time for anywhere > > from10 to 50 cents on the RR Auction dollar. > > > > Sellam > > > --===============2693341819116001538==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Aug 27 18:04:31 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 18:04:25 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6672405017062374688==" --===============6672405017062374688== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keep it preserved somewhere. Out of sunlight and maybe in a container of some sort. Might want to consult = a museum about preservation. Is the market hot for publications?=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 27, 2024, at 10:29, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFKeep it wrapped and sell it. You can read it online. >=20 > Sellam >=20 >> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 9:39 AM osi.superboard via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> I do have a 1975 Byte#1 issue magazine unopened in its original Byte >> mailing paper wrap. >>=20 >> Should be worth a few more pennies to read this issue for the first >> time. Or should I ? >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 27.08.2024 15:10, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2024, 5:33 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> $3400 for the premier issue of Mac World? Who would pay that much for >>>> this? >>>> Bill >>>>=20 >>> That's pretty much what I'm thinking for the vast majority of this stuff. >>> The Altair 8800 issue of Poptronics sold for arounda K. >>>=20 >>> A lot of this stuff can be found on eBay at any given time for anywhere >>> from10 to 50 cents on the RR Auction dollar. >>>=20 >>> Sellam >>>=20 >>=20 --===============6672405017062374688==-- From useddec@gmail.com Wed Aug 28 08:56:43 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCFMW items available upon request Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 03:56:26 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5758038542830479558==" --===============5758038542830479558== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a list of some items I can bring to VCFMW if requested. I am not going to bring them unless there is interest in them. Celebris 560 830WW (I think that is this one) Venturis 466 d54 WW Venturis 575 921WW DECpc 433dxLP PC473 2) PCWXE-A2 DECpc DECpc 433 workstationPCW10-A2 DEC 3000 400 PE40A-CC missing cover, parts machine? VS43A-CZ VAXstation 4000 60 few 3100 parts units storage expansion box VAX CPU, memory, option boards Q-bus CPU, memory, option boards, most boxes UNIBUS 100's of boards LA36 Printers LA120 printers --===============5758038542830479558==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Aug 28 18:49:37 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 14:49:24 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0450493023466135377==" --===============0450493023466135377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/27/2024 10:10 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Aug 23, 2024, 5:33 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> >> $3400 for the premier issue of Mac World? Who would pay that much for >> this? >> Bill >> >=20 > That's pretty much what I'm thinking for the vast majority of this stuff. > The Altair 8800 issue of Poptronics sold for arounda K. >=20 > A lot of this stuff can be found on eBay at any given time for anywhere > from10 to 50 cents on the RR Auction dollar. >=20 And who would pay a million for a Superman Comic? At lest computer magazines (well, some of them) have real content with real value. Even if nowhere near $3400, bill --===============0450493023466135377==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Aug 28 19:31:23 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 19:31:13 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8P221MB14699DB6D5C09AA571AB3811ED952=40LV8P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1469=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2585509567094482641==" --===============2585509567094482641== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would because in 5 years i could sell it for 2 million! Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 28, 2024, at 11:49, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On 8/27/2024 10:10 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2024, 5:33 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> $3400 for the premier issue of Mac World? Who would pay that much for >>> this? >>> Bill >>>=20 >> That's pretty much what I'm thinking for the vast majority of this stuff. >> The Altair 8800 issue of Poptronics sold for arounda K. >> A lot of this stuff can be found on eBay at any given time for anywhere >> from10 to 50 cents on the RR Auction dollar. >=20 > And who would pay a million for a Superman Comic? >=20 > At lest computer magazines (well, some of them) have real content > with real value. Even if nowhere near $3400, >=20 > bill >=20 --===============2585509567094482641==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Wed Aug 28 19:40:06 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 14:39:45 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181036BB26703358F3CDF64E4942=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2722832976127837989==" --===============2722832976127837989== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Fool me once... (Jk but ironic museum suggestion given the subject). On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 1:14 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Keep it preserved somewhere. > Out of sunlight and maybe in a container of some sort. Might want to > consult a museum about preservation. Is the market hot for publications? > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 27, 2024, at 10:29, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Keep it wrapped and sell it. You can read it online. > > > > Sellam > > > >> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 9:39 AM osi.superboard via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> I do have a 1975 Byte#1 issue magazine unopened in its original Byte > >> mailing paper wrap. > >> > >> Should be worth a few more pennies to read this issue for the first > >> time. Or should I ? > --===============2722832976127837989==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 28 19:58:34 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Norton Utilities on 5.25" floppies Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 12:58:24 -0700 Message-ID: <16eef3871fa44102d951e45a59c82258f9decb66.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <16eef3871fa44102d951e45a59c82258f9decb66.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8907367113709658450==" --===============8907367113709658450== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have Norton Utilities on 5.25" floppies. I don't have a drive so I don't know whether they're readable. Send me a PDF for a shipping label for 8"x10"x1" 8oz envelope and they're yours. Van Snyder --===============8907367113709658450==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Thu Aug 29 09:15:45 2024 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 10:14:59 +0100 Message-ID: <70299080-800f-4b7a-8765-db5c24a6ebd8@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7710681191790589940==" --===============7710681191790589940== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unfortunately, museums are no longer a safe place for donated and rare=20 artifacts. Paul Allen's heirs just want to keep their $17 billion for=20 themselves. See Paul Allen=E2=80=99s Living Computers: Museum article.=20 https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/paul-allens-living-computers-museum= -labs-will-close-permanently/ On 28.08.2024 20:39, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Fool me once... (Jk but ironic museum suggestion given the subject). > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 1:14 PM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: > >> Keep it preserved somewhere. >> Out of sunlight and maybe in a container of some sort. Might want to >> consult a museum about preservation. Is the market hot for publications? >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 27, 2024, at 10:29, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> =EF=BB=BFKeep it wrapped and sell it. You can read it online. >>> >>> Sellam >>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 9:39 AM osi.superboard via cctalk < >>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> I do have a 1975 Byte#1 issue magazine unopened in its original Byte >>>> mailing paper wrap. >>>> >>>> Should be worth a few more pennies to read this issue for the first >>>> time. Or should I ? --===============7710681191790589940==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Aug 29 12:12:06 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 08:11:57 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <70299080-800f-4b7a-8765-db5c24a6ebd8@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4682241694112130105==" --===============4682241694112130105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Unfortunately, museums are no longer a safe place for donated and rare=20 > artifacts. Paul Allen's heirs just want to keep their $17 billion for=20 > themselves. Never have been. If there is one thing in life I have learned it's that=20 the purpose of a museum is not to preserve history. The purpose of a museum is to destroy history. Oh the reasons are good: History will be preserved, culture will be=20 remembered, artifacts will no longer sit in the dirt. But throughout=20 history, from the Library of Alexandria to the museums of kings to the=20 Middle Ages, people would pile all of their art, culture, and works into=20 nice compact buildings. Then when the ignorant mobs come they have a single place to torch to=20 remove the heresy and treason counter to the current "beliefs". And it's=20 all gone. Think about ISIS, think about what happened in Iraq, think about the=20 LCM, the Boston Computer Museum, and all of that. Sad but when you find=20 an artifact in the ground the best thing you can do for it is to cover=20 it up and forget it existed.... C >=20 > See Paul Allen=E2=80=99s Living Computers: Museum article.=20 > https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/paul-allens-living-computers-muse= um-labs-will-close-permanently/ >=20 >=20 > On 28.08.2024 20:39, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >> Fool me once... (Jk but ironic museum suggestion given the subject). >> >> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 1:14 PM Wayne S via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> Keep it preserved somewhere. >>> Out of sunlight and maybe in a container of some sort. Might want to >>> consult a museum about preservation. Is the market hot for publications? >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Aug 27, 2024, at 10:29, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> =EF=BB=BFKeep it wrapped and sell it. You can read it online. >>>> >>>> Sellam >>>> >>>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 9:39 AM osi.superboard via cctalk < >>>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I do have a 1975 Byte#1 issue magazine unopened in its original Byte >>>>> mailing paper wrap. >>>>> >>>>> Should be worth a few more pennies to read this issue for the first >>>>> time. Or should I ? --===============4682241694112130105==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Aug 29 13:44:48 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:44:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1092236037753211982==" --===============1092236037753211982== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/29/2024 8:11 AM, cz via cctalk wrote: >> Unfortunately, museums are no longer a safe place for donated and rare >> artifacts. Paul Allen's heirs just want to keep their $17 billion for >> themselves. > > Never have been. If there is one thing in life I have learned it's that > the purpose of a museum is not to preserve history. > > The purpose of a museum is to destroy history. And let's not forget libraries. I donated a book (Theological Subject, another of my degree concentrations not computer related) to the University library where I worked. It lasted about 5 years before it was no longer on the shelf or in the card catalog. bill --===============1092236037753211982==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Aug 29 13:55:19 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 06:55:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3701983625398368359==" --===============3701983625398368359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Aug 29, 2024, 5:12 AM cz via cctalk wrote: > > Then when the ignorant mobs come they have a single place to torch to > remove the heresy and treason counter to the current "beliefs". And it's > all gone. > ...visions of the Computer History Museum being sacked by Mostly Peaceful protestors with the restored PDP-1 rolled off into the night by hooded teens, never to be seen again. Sellam --===============3701983625398368359==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 29 14:25:07 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 10:24:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8P221MB1469EE10611DD65E3C87C702ED962=40LV8P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1469=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9167602472289328466==" --===============9167602472289328466== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 29, 2024, at 9:44 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 8/29/2024 8:11 AM, cz via cctalk wrote: >>> Unfortunately, museums are no longer a safe place for donated and rare ar= tifacts. Paul Allen's heirs just want to keep their $17 billion for themselve= s. >> Never have been. If there is one thing in life I have learned it's that th= e purpose of a museum is not to preserve history. >> The purpose of a museum is to destroy history. >=20 > And let's not forget libraries. I donated a book (Theological > Subject, another of my degree concentrations not computer related) > to the University library where I worked. It lasted about 5 years before i= t was no longer on the shelf or in the card catalog. Indeed, the risk with these organizations isn't merely outside pillagers, but= inside jobs. If you donate something, the museum will do with it what they = want, including throwing it away if they feel like it. And if you have contr= actual restrictions in place, it's anyone's guess whether any court will enfo= rce those. Precedent (in the USA at least) suggests that courts can be swaye= d by snow jobs from museums to set aside the plain English wording of donor t= erms. A loan is a whole lot safer, though even then you have to worry about damage = to the item. I know of a case where a classic computer was lent to a museum = and came back after the museum canceled the loan, with one of its core module= s missing. By curious coincidence, a core module exactly like that one appea= red as a separate item "from an anonymous donor" in the museum's collection a= round that time. paul --===============9167602472289328466==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Thu Aug 29 15:20:12 2024 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:45:57 -0500 Message-ID: <20240829152008.3B2DD92CFD@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4996018852283547610==" --===============4996018852283547610== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 07:11 AM 8/29/2024, cz via cctalk wrote: >The purpose of a museum is to destroy history. Ridiculous. Do the math. If there was a computer so magical and historically significant because only 100 of them were made, and 95 of them were scrapped = long ago by individual and corporate owners, and one made it into a "museum," why aren't you equally blaming the people who tossed the 95? At least the museum tried to save it. =20 - John --===============4996018852283547610==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 29 15:48:49 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:48:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240829152008.3B2DD92CFD@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7735250423462023994==" --===============7735250423462023994== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 29, 2024, at 10:45 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >=20 > At 07:11 AM 8/29/2024, cz via cctalk wrote: >> The purpose of a museum is to destroy history. >=20 > Ridiculous. Do the math. If there was a computer so magical and historica= lly > significant because only 100 of them were made, and 95 of them were scrappe= d long > ago by individual and corporate owners, and one made it into a "museum," > why aren't you equally blaming the people who tossed the 95? At least > the museum tried to save it. =20 Did it, though? The attempt may have been made by the collector who donated = it, and the museum may be the one who reneged on the commitment to preserve. paul --===============7735250423462023994==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Aug 29 16:04:05 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:03:53 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0399251052769171736==" --===============0399251052769171736== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unless the museum has an large enough endowment to take care of itself=20 and grow it will fail. I'm sure even the Smithsonian discards items that is can no longer=20 afford to house.=C2=A0 And that is after it has sat in storage for years. Whether publicly, privately or government funded expenses and the need=20 for space and man power always increase. Maybe we need a new law, we will call it Allen's law and it is directly=20 related to Moore's law.=C2=A0 As computers become obsolete faster and faster = the space, time and money to preserve them increases respectively. On 8/29/2024 10:48 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Aug 29, 2024, at 10:45 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >> >> At 07:11 AM 8/29/2024, cz via cctalk wrote: >>> The purpose of a museum is to destroy history. >> Ridiculous. Do the math. If there was a computer so magical and historic= ally >> significant because only 100 of them were made, and 95 of them were scrapp= ed long >> ago by individual and corporate owners, and one made it into a "museum," >> why aren't you equally blaming the people who tossed the 95? At least >> the museum tried to save it. > Did it, though? The attempt may have been made by the collector who donate= d it, and the museum may be the one who reneged on the commitment to preserve. > > paul > --===============0399251052769171736==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Aug 29 16:07:55 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 12:07:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4697796466941263506==" --===============4697796466941263506== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Maybe we need a new law, we will call it Allen's law and it is directly > related to Moore's law. As computers become obsolete faster and faster > the space, time and money to preserve them increases respectively. > > > ooo! That's good! Bill --===============4697796466941263506==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Thu Aug 29 16:24:21 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:24:14 -0700 Message-ID: <66d0a0af.170a0220.17cee8.5a19@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0435068710392224904==" --===============0435068710392224904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used to think museums were the only right place for historic items, and des= pite being a collector myself, I used to kind of not love things disappearing= into private collections.=C2=A0 But I realize now private collections are a = fairly efficient, cost effective and safe way for things to be preserved.=C2= =A0 Museums often end up storing a lot of what they have anyway so it's not l= ike it's any more accessible.=C2=A0 Plus with private collections artifacts a= re distributed all over the place, so things survive despite disasters here a= nd there.Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Mike Katz via cctalk Date: 2024-08-29 9:04=E2=80=AFa.m. (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discu= ssion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Mike Katz = Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Unless the museum= has an large enough endowment to take care of itself and grow it will fail.I= 'm sure even the Smithsonian discards items that is can no longer afford to h= ouse.=C2=A0 And that is after it has sat in storage for years.Whether publicl= y, privately or government funded expenses and the need for space and man pow= er always increase.Maybe we need a new law, we will call it Allen's law and i= t is directly related to Moore's law.=C2=A0 As computers become obsolete fast= er and faster the space, time and money to preserve them increases respective= ly.On 8/29/2024 10:48 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:>>> On Aug 29, 2024, a= t 10:45 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:>>>> At 07:= 11 AM 8/29/2024, cz via cctalk wrote:>>> The purpose of a museum is to destro= y history.>> Ridiculous.=C2=A0 Do the math.=C2=A0 If there was a computer so = magical and historically>> significant because only 100 of them were made, an= d 95 of them were scrapped long>> ago by individual and corporate owners, and= one made it into a "museum,">> why aren't you equally blaming the people who= tossed the 95?=C2=A0 At least>> the museum tried to save it.> Did it, though= ?=C2=A0 The attempt may have been made by the collector who donated it, and t= he museum may be the one who reneged on the commitment to preserve.>> paul> --===============0435068710392224904==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Thu Aug 29 16:35:30 2024 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 12:27:11 -0400 Message-ID: <1a6455c7-0b76-4021-bde2-8480b14143e0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6059938116553648638==" --===============6059938116553648638== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The solution is right in front of us.   One of us here has to become a multi-billionaire and create a museum to save all this stuff!  Let the fighting and bickering begin! Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? Doug --===============6059938116553648638==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Thu Aug 29 16:37:42 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:37:31 -0700 Message-ID: <7c0e2ebf-a6e2-46d4-b9d2-41711e671df7@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6258462555840417668==" --===============6258462555840417668== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> It's 8P8C with a little offset snag=20 >>> reminiscent of a DEC MMJ, but it's the width of an RJ-11: while an "RJ-45= "=20 >>> Ethernet cable is too wide, a phone handset cord is the right width even = though=20 >>> it obviously doesn't have enough connectors. I messed around with filing = down a=20 >>> junk Ethernet patch cord but that's just making a mess bigger than the ic= ky cable.=20 >>> I think this is a standard connector, but I'm not sure which? >> >> Sandman Electronics carries what they call a 'universal' modular plug, 8P8= C but the width of a 6P6C or 4P4C (RJ11).=C2=A0 You can look at it at https:/= /sandman.com/products/too5o-blue-universal-mod-plug and they're used for patc= h cords for banjos, like used with clip lead butt sets.=C2=A0 This way you ca= n have one 8 connection banjo with 8P8C jacks but use it with both the wide 8= P and medium 6/4P jacks (of course NOT the narrow headset 4P jacks). > > Wow, that looks very much like it. The only other difference I noticed last > night is it has a key divot on one side, but I might be able to machine tha= t out. >=20 > Thanks for the suggestion. I might pick a couple connectors up and crimp a > cable if it fits. It's otherwise wired straight thru except to swap pins 4 = and > 5 for reasons unclear to me (sadly the Bitsavers documentation on the WorkS= late > is truncated at page 97, so there's no pinout for the port, though I can te= ll > from the wiring that two lines go to ground and one to voltage). Just to close the loop - I ended up just buying an entire banjo with the cable from Sandman ( https://www.sandman.com/products/too6g-modular-2-4-6-8-pin-butt-set-banjo-ada= pter , part #TOO6G). I figured I'd need some sort of breakout anyway, so that seem= ed like the easiest route to go, and I didn't have to worry that I'd farked up crimping the cable. The included cable connector's narrow 8P8C is the right width and a careful swipe or two with a Dremel machined out enough of a divot to match the port key. Alligator clips and jumpers were enough to wire it up to serial and the connection is functional and snug. Thanks for the suggestion, Lamar! It did the job. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- When two elephants fight, the grass and trees suffer. -- African proverb -= -- --===============6258462555840417668==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Thu Aug 29 17:07:22 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 12:07:14 -0500 Message-ID: <1529232344.1420083.1724951234008@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <1a6455c7-0b76-4021-bde2-8480b14143e0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5275773878851232539==" --===============5275773878851232539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? The joke doesn't work as well this way, but the old Texas joke was "how do you become a Texas oil millionaire? Start by being a Texas oil billionaire." mcl --===============5275773878851232539==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Thu Aug 29 17:15:08 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 10:15:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1529232344.1420083.1724951234008@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3974366149587774852==" --===============3974366149587774852== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? > > The joke doesn't work as well this way, but the old Texas joke > was "how do you become a Texas oil millionaire? Start by being > a Texas oil billionaire." Insert Ross Perot joke here. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- One can live in Paris ... on just grief and anguish. -- Henry Miller -----= -- --===============3974366149587774852==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Aug 29 17:59:21 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 10:59:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1529232344.1420083.1724951234008@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5929396060657357002==" --===============5929396060657357002== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? For a few decades, we have been saying that "We must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire." --===============5929396060657357002==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 29 18:09:09 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 12:09:01 -0600 Message-ID: <547cc0f0-0642-4a3b-aa38-ee455710b5ca@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <1a6455c7-0b76-4021-bde2-8480b14143e0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8846927349287764763==" --===============8846927349287764763== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-08-29 10:27 a.m., Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > The solution is right in front of us.   One of us here has to become a > multi-billionaire and create a museum to save all this stuff!  Let the > fighting and bickering begin! > > Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? > > Doug > Find a billion fools with money. :) While most of it was luck, and the right place at the right time, Apple , Microsoft, Intel & Zilog and the 6502* it still took a lot of work to get there in the early days.Only later did they get rich. Ben. PS: * Had to say the 6502, or a cult with torches might show up at my door. --===============8846927349287764763==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 29 18:11:10 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 12:11:02 -0600 Message-ID: <044bfbc6-e80f-443d-af13-b83cab58cb47@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0962959838987714110==" --===============0962959838987714110== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-08-29 11:59 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? > > For a few decades, we have been saying that > "We must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire." it is called TAX! --===============0962959838987714110==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Aug 29 18:46:22 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 18:46:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <044bfbc6-e80f-443d-af13-b83cab58cb47@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1767982399585435894==" --===============1767982399585435894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Speaking of Bill Gates, does anyone know if he collects? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 29, 2024, at 11:11, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2024-08-29 11:59 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? >> For a few decades, we have been saying that >> "We must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire." > it is called TAX! > > --===============1767982399585435894==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Aug 29 18:55:22 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:55:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218164623D1765FD3972E6C8E4962=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6038853802909328976==" --===============6038853802909328976== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, he collects money. Sellam On Thu, Aug 29, 2024, 11:54 AM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of Bill Gates, does anyone know if he collects? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 29, 2024, at 11:11, ben via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 2024-08-29 11:59 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? > >> For a few decades, we have been saying that > >> "We must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire." > > it is called TAX! > > > > > --===============6038853802909328976==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Aug 29 18:56:37 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 18:56:30 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4688316101010020032==" --===============4688316101010020032== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know and he=E2=80=99s good at it! Besides money though. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 29, 2024, at 11:55, Sellam Abraham wrote: =EF=BB=BF Yes, he collects money. Sellam On Thu, Aug 29, 2024, 11:54 AM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: Speaking of Bill Gates, does anyone know if he collects? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 29, 2024, at 11:11, ben via cctalk > wrote: > > =EF=BB=BFOn 2024-08-29 11:59 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? >> For a few decades, we have been saying that >> "We must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire." > it is called TAX! > > --===============4688316101010020032==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Aug 29 18:58:10 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 14:58:06 -0400 Message-ID: <412605605.6064516.1724957886339@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218170A9180809E00A8519C9E4962=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1359045047703909024==" --===============1359045047703909024== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 08/29/2024 2:56 PM EDT Wayne S via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 >=20 > I know and he=E2=80=99s good at it! > Besides money though. > Sent from my iPhone >=20 politicians > On Aug 29, 2024, at 11:55, Sellam Abraham wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yes, he collects money. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > On Thu, Aug 29, 2024, 11:54 AM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: > Speaking of Bill Gates, does anyone know if he collects? >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > > On Aug 29, 2024, at 11:11, ben via cctalk > wrote: > > On 2024-08-29 11:59 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > >> Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? > > > For a few decades, we have been saying that > > > "We must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire." > > it is called TAX! > > Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============1359045047703909024==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Thu Aug 29 20:03:24 2024 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:53:32 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1a6455c7-0b76-4021-bde2-8480b14143e0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5106766638368315422==" --===============5106766638368315422== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 29/08/2024 17:27, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > The solution is right in front of us.   One of us here has to become a > multi-billionaire and create a museum to save all this stuff!  Let the > fighting and bickering begin! > > Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? Let me start by saying this is my idea, I thought of it first and I'm declaring copyright on it. If everyone on this list sends me just 0.5% of their total wealth, I promise to try really hard to preserve some retro computing stuff. Honest. USDC would be best please, I'll set up a wallet as soon as the first donor steps up :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============5106766638368315422==-- From legalize@xmission.com Thu Aug 29 20:43:03 2024 From: Richard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW items available upon request Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 14:09:16 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4915633825013200740==" --===============4915633825013200740== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In article you write: >Here is a list of some items I can bring to VCFMW if requested. [...] Unless they are qualified as working in proper order, they are just scrap and should be priced accordingly. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Terminals Wiki The Computer Graphics Museum Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --===============4915633825013200740==-- From falcon@freecalypso.org Thu Aug 29 21:36:53 2024 From: Mychaela Falconia To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 13:28:40 -0800 Message-ID: <20240829212845.A27FA37401DA@freecalypso.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9103983356775306795==" --===============9103983356775306795== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > If everyone on this list sends me just 0.5% of their total wealth, I > promise to try really hard to preserve some retro computing stuff. Honest. If total wealth means cash or assets that can be readily and reliably converted into cash (i.e., if giant stashes of retro equipment of highly uncertain resale value don't count), then 0.5% of my total wealth would be a little under $200 - but I'll round it up to an even $200 for this thought exercise. I am seriously considering taking you up on your offer, thereby becoming that first donor you asked for - but I have one condition. This same condition applies not only to Antonio, but to _anyone_ whom I would potentially consider as a recipient for any of my retro equipment _or_ any of my extremely meager cash. Specifically: I am potentially willing to donate my equipment and/or my cash only to those who are Pureblood, meaning UNvaccinated. How would someone prove that they are unjabbed? Easy: show me the list of family members and once-friends who disowned you for your resistance to the vaxx push, the list of groups and events from which you've been banned or uninvited because of the same personal bodily autonomy choice, etc. > USDC would be best please, I'll set up a wallet as soon as the first > donor steps up :-) Assuming you are pureblood per above (if not, then never mind), would you accept an old-fashioned paper check by snail mail instead? Sincerely, Mychaela, an ultra-far-leftist California girl who resisted the Covidian narrative from day 1 (and took 0 jabs), and who is now politically homeless and tribeless, rejected by The Left for my anti-scamdemic values while still rejected by The Right for all of the other unalterable aspects of who I am. --===============9103983356775306795==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Thu Aug 29 23:00:55 2024 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:00:46 +0100 Message-ID: <439d01dafa67$4958e8f0$dc0abad0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0672636559412645772==" --===============0672636559412645772== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hasn't he promised to give his money away... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2024 7:55 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: Wayne S ; Sellam Abraham > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction > > Yes, he collects money. > > Sellam > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2024, 11:54 AM Wayne S via cctalk > > wrote: > > > Speaking of Bill Gates, does anyone know if he collects? > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Aug 29, 2024, at 11:11, ben via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > On 2024-08-29 11:59 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > >>> Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? > > >> For a few decades, we have been saying that "We must do whatever it > > >> takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire." > > > it is called TAX! > > > > > > > > --===============0672636559412645772==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Aug 29 23:21:21 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <439d01dafa67$4958e8f0$dc0abad0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6086540077907002766==" --===============6086540077907002766== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 30 Aug 2024, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > Hasn't he promised to give his money away... Yes He is a follower of Carnegie. Ruthlessly make an enormous amount of money, and then "buy your way into heaven" by doing good deeds with a large part of the money. Look at the Carnegie libraries. 'course, once you are a MULTI-billionairs, you can give a billion to worthy charities, and still be obscenely rich. "Brewster's Millions" (both the original and the Richard Pryor/John Candy remake) are about the difficulty of spending more than a certain amount. It's probably kinda expensive to put a tracking chip into every vaccine, . . . :-) 'course, once every Windows, Apple, and Android machines stay connected to the interwebs, all of the tracking data is already there. It's not worth the storage to keep tracking data of CP/M and TRSDOS. --===============6086540077907002766==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Aug 29 23:50:57 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 19:50:47 -0400 Message-ID: <94E66593-85C6-4448-93CA-DE18E3BE915B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6705286114729754585==" --===============6705286114729754585== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 29, 2024, at 7:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 30 Aug 2024, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: >> Hasn't he promised to give his money away... >=20 > Yes > He is a follower of Carnegie. Ruthlessly make an enormous amount of money,= and then "buy your way into heaven" by doing good deeds with a large part of= the money. Look at the Carnegie libraries. In an earlier century, those schemes were called "indulgences" and were one o= f the main causes of the Reformation. paul --===============6705286114729754585==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Aug 30 00:01:34 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 17:01:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <94E66593-85C6-4448-93CA-DE18E3BE915B@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1495004215077792442==" --===============1495004215077792442== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> Hasn't he promised to give his money away... >> >> Yes >> He is a follower of Carnegie. Ruthlessly make an enormous amount of money= , and then "buy your way into heaven" by doing good deeds with a large part o= f the money. Look at the Carnegie libraries. > On Thu, 29 Aug 2024, Paul Koning wrote: > In an earlier century, those schemes were called "indulgences" and were one= of the main causes of the Reformation. Martin Luther's post on the church door was, of course, completely=20 inadequate to put an end to indulgences. And there are other sorts of them still being created. "Solar Renewable=20 Energy Certificates" seem like an indulgence market. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1495004215077792442==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Aug 30 00:47:46 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:47:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218164623D1765FD3972E6C8E4962=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1177973913788461735==" --===============1177973913788461735== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/29/2024 2:46 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of Bill Gates, does anyone know if he collects? > He might collect something but I doubt it has anything to do with computers. I don't think he ever had any interest in computers other than as a means to get rich. And at the time he started there were a lot of snakeoil salesman so it was easy for him to slide right in. bill --===============1177973913788461735==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Aug 30 01:21:11 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 18:21:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <55856bc3-cf4d-43d8-97e1-b494c82a1b3a@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7067315086426052419==" --===============7067315086426052419== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Carnegie (and Gates) were only figuratively "buying their way into heaven". I don't think that either did it for religious reasons. Although most would assume that it is a religious issue, that was not my intent. The specific example that I gave is non-religious. "I have learned that no good can ever come from starting a discussion of politics, religion, or the Great Pumpkin." - Linus We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Thu, 29 Aug 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > And then there's the story in the bible about Jesus throwing the people > selling indulgences (and other things) out of the temple?😮 > > That kind of thing has been going on for thousands of years.  It predates > Catholicism but became a part of the Catholic Church in the 11th and 12 > centuries. > > This is not intended to start a theological discussion in any way shape or > form.  I was just mentioning that buying your salvation has been a part of > mankind for a long time. > > On 8/29/2024 7:01 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Hasn't he promised to give his money away... >>>> >>>> Yes >>>> He is a follower of Carnegie.  Ruthlessly make an enormous amount of >>>> money, and then "buy your way into heaven" by doing good deeds with a >>>> large part of the money.  Look at the Carnegie libraries. >>> >> On Thu, 29 Aug 2024, Paul Koning wrote: >>> In an earlier century, those schemes were called "indulgences" and were >>> one of the main causes of the Reformation. >> >> Martin Luther's post on the church door was, of course, completely >> inadequate to put an end to indulgences. >> >> And there are other sorts of them still being created.  "Solar Renewable >> Energy Certificates" seem like an indulgence market. >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7067315086426052419==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Aug 30 01:39:16 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 19:33:00 -0500 Message-ID: <55856bc3-cf4d-43d8-97e1-b494c82a1b3a@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0943684943007321839==" --===============0943684943007321839== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And then there's the story in the bible about Jesus throwing the people selling indulgences (and other things) out of the temple?😮 That kind of thing has been going on for thousands of years.  It predates Catholicism but became a part of the Catholic Church in the 11th and 12 centuries. This is not intended to start a theological discussion in any way shape or form.  I was just mentioning that buying your salvation has been a part of mankind for a long time. On 8/29/2024 7:01 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> Hasn't he promised to give his money away... >>> >>> Yes >>> He is a follower of Carnegie.  Ruthlessly make an enormous amount of >>> money, and then "buy your way into heaven" by doing good deeds with >>> a large part of the money.  Look at the Carnegie libraries. >> > On Thu, 29 Aug 2024, Paul Koning wrote: >> In an earlier century, those schemes were called "indulgences" and >> were one of the main causes of the Reformation. > > Martin Luther's post on the church door was, of course, completely > inadequate to put an end to indulgences. > > And there are other sorts of them still being created.  "Solar > Renewable Energy Certificates" seem like an indulgence market. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0943684943007321839==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Fri Aug 30 01:56:47 2024 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 18:50:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8796773656370677031==" --===============8796773656370677031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/29/24 18:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [snip] > > We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. Now you've done it ;) -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…" --===============8796773656370677031==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Aug 30 02:02:30 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 22:02:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7868566247594900989==" --===============7868566247594900989== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ED! ED MAN! MAN ED! Ed is the standard text editor...... On 8/29/2024 9:50 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/29/24 18:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > [snip] >> >> We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. > > Now you've done it ;) > --===============7868566247594900989==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri Aug 30 02:21:15 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 21:20:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6896253808700340605==" --===============6896253808700340605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 9:02=E2=80=AFPM cz via cctalk wrote: > > ED! > > ED MAN! Ed's dead baby. Ed's dead. --===============6896253808700340605==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 02:38:51 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 19:38:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2757262431803816384==" --===============2757262431803816384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Aug 29, 2024, 6:29 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com Apple II vs. IBM PC vs. Commodore 64 vs. Atari 800 vs Radio Shack TRS-80 vs... Sellam --===============2757262431803816384==-- From useddec@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 02:44:41 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW items available upon request Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 21:44:24 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3770768053705744074==" --===============3770768053705744074== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think most people here would disagree with you. How many people would scrap a KI10, 11/20, PDP8 or any piece of classic computer equipment if it was not "working in proper order"? I usually discuss this with the potential buyer. I have never heard a technically skilled person say that. Paul On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 3:43 PM Richard via cctalk wrote: > In article < > CACwhfuP8Lk19iPgAHAB-Hp-M0fKPTMQG7hh07Hg8Rz7uYYnfVw(a)mail.gmail.com> you > write: > >Here is a list of some items I can bring to VCFMW if requested. [...] > > Unless they are qualified as working in proper order, they are just > scrap and should be priced accordingly. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > The Terminals Wiki > The Computer Graphics Museum > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > --===============3770768053705744074==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Aug 30 02:48:58 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 19:48:54 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8714867580788028157==" --===============8714867580788028157== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. On Thu, 29 Aug 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Apple II vs. IBM PC vs. Commodore 64 vs. Atari 800 vs Radio Shack TRS-80 > vs... DOSPLUS vs NEWDOS-80 Electric Pencil vs. Scripsit Pre-CP/M Electric Pencil vs TRS80 release vs Pennington versions (including P= C) . . . --===============8714867580788028157==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Fri Aug 30 02:50:35 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 21:50:26 -0500 Message-ID: <1219984356.1449066.1724986226677@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1885357943895981528==" --===============1885357943895981528== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ed's dead baby. Ed's dead. Dave? Dave's not here, man. mcl --===============1885357943895981528==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 03:49:46 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:49:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8041899203944121787==" --===============8041899203944121787== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Help. Unsubscibe. Jane, get me off this crazy list. --===============8041899203944121787==-- From doug@doughq.com Fri Aug 30 04:16:21 2024 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:06:30 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7669687745174526567==" --===============7669687745174526567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We can unsubscribe? No -Once you give your email over, it's there forever :-) Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 at 13:49, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > Help. Unsubscibe. Jane, get me off this crazy list. --===============7669687745174526567==-- From julf@julf.com Fri Aug 30 06:08:13 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 08:08:04 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240829212845.A27FA37401DA@freecalypso.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4500318172485978580==" --===============4500318172485978580== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 29/08/2024 23:28, Mychaela Falconia via cctalk wrote: > Specifically: I am potentially willing to donate my equipment and/or > my cash only to those who are Pureblood, meaning UNvaccinated. I assume you are aware that child mortality was 50% well into the 20th century, and was still 25% in 1950. It is now 4.3%. Guess what made the dramatic difference? Yes, vaccines... Julf --===============4500318172485978580==-- From julf@julf.com Fri Aug 30 06:09:58 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 08:09:51 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2515393454464873386==" --===============2515393454464873386== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I vote for cat. Julf On 30/08/2024 04:02, cz via cctalk wrote: > ED! > > ED MAN! > > MAN ED! > > Ed is the standard text editor...... > > On 8/29/2024 9:50 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 8/29/24 18:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> [snip] >>> >>> We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. >> >> Now you've done it ;) >> --===============2515393454464873386==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 06:22:45 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 23:21:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6157693531303376657==" --===============6157693531303376657== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 9:16 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > We can unsubscribe? > > No -Once you give your email over, it's there forever :-) > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson 1997 OG ClassicCmp'er represent. Sellam > > --===============6157693531303376657==-- From useddec@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 07:00:16 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] More for VCFMW: DECmates, Pros, rainbows, PDP8, 861-C pwr controllers Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 01:59:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1051638779408822476==" --===============1051638779408822476== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More for VCFMW: DECmates, Pro350/380s, rainbows, PDP8, 861-C pwr controllers as is without power cords. Boards, boxes, CPUs, systems, etc I trade for coins! Please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul --===============1051638779408822476==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 08:51:48 2024 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 09:51:40 +0100 Message-ID: <44fb01dafab9$d52cd5b0$7f868110$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7735436142259539188==" --===============7735436142259539188== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, Some one in Solihull in the UK has a few terminals, including a VT420, for sale on Facebook UK. They appear to be complete with keyboards but otherwise as-seen. Sadly they are in a private group so you will need to join Facebook and the group to see them. https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerswapmeet/posts/81591725341583 87/ but if you don't want to do this and are interested contact me off list.. Dave G4UGM --===============7735436142259539188==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Fri Aug 30 10:04:04 2024 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 10:17:25 +0100 Message-ID: <023201dafabd$6df35f00$49da1d00$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <44fb01dafab9$d52cd5b0$7f868110$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5005993461907951745==" --===============5005993461907951745== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave, I am not on FB, any chance you could tell me what terminals they are and what they are asking for them? Maybe a screenshot if you can fit it on one page. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk > Sent: 30 August 2024 09:52 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com > Subject: [cctalk] VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook > > Folks, > > Some one in Solihull in the UK has a few terminals, including a VT420, for sale > on Facebook UK. > > They appear to be complete with keyboards but otherwise as-seen. > > > > Sadly they are in a private group so you will need to join Facebook and the > group to see them. > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerswapmeet/posts/815917 > 25341583 > 87/ > > > > but if you don't want to do this and are interested contact me off list.. > > > > Dave > > G4UGM --===============5005993461907951745==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Fri Aug 30 11:11:55 2024 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 12:11:48 +0100 Message-ID: <023301dafacd$68acdd90$3a0698b0$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <023201dafabd$6df35f00$49da1d00$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4453194737130515443==" --===============4453194737130515443== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry that was meant to be a private reply! > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt via cctalk > Sent: 30 August 2024 10:17 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Cc: Rob Jarratt > Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook > > Hello Dave, > > I am not on FB, any chance you could tell me what terminals they are and > what they are asking for them? Maybe a screenshot if you can fit it on one > page. > > Thanks > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk > > Sent: 30 August 2024 09:52 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Cc: dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com > > Subject: [cctalk] VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook > > > > Folks, > > > > Some one in Solihull in the UK has a few terminals, including a VT420, > > for > sale > > on Facebook UK. > > > > They appear to be complete with keyboards but otherwise as-seen. > > > > > > > > Sadly they are in a private group so you will need to join Facebook > > and > the > > group to see them. > > > > > > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerswapmeet/posts/815917 > > 25341583 > > 87/ > > > > > > > > but if you don't want to do this and are interested contact me off list.. > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > G4UGM --===============4453194737130515443==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Fri Aug 30 11:22:12 2024 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 12:22:06 +0100 Message-ID: <62834bd9-7087-4601-b6b5-2c74d7303d3a@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <023201dafabd$6df35f00$49da1d00$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3564094153177912080==" --===============3564094153177912080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 30/08/2024 10:17, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I am not on FB, any chance you could tell me what terminals they are and > what they are asking for them? Maybe a screenshot if you can fit it on one > page. Photos sent via email ... I don't think I can do attachments on the list. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============3564094153177912080==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Fri Aug 30 16:21:06 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 16:20:54 +0000 Message-ID: <-pTUfVBufBxn2xITZ9l8h7nDB2EFRpe7UE6F381wWvCKZmHiNVSa-QAfzbsX-fF5-KZZYakdyorY3ly6WKUmbvwVG5huFqbvY78U21oV5v8=@virtadpt.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8409820595571440740==" --===============8409820595571440740== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday, August 29th, 2024 at 18:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. edlin. The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============8409820595571440740==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Fri Aug 30 16:28:49 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 16:18:17 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7909978370662199079==" --===============7909978370662199079== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday, August 29th, 2024 at 16:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > He is a follower of Carnegie. Ruthlessly make an enormous amount of > money, and then "buy your way into heaven" by doing good deeds with a > large part of the money. Look at the Carnegie libraries. Good deeds cost money. Bad deeds earn money. The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============7909978370662199079==-- From als@thangorodrim.de Fri Aug 30 17:30:25 2024 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 19:06:02 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0010200932800826289==" --===============0010200932800826289== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 08:08:04AM +0200, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > On 29/08/2024 23:28, Mychaela Falconia via cctalk wrote: > > Specifically: I am potentially willing to donate my equipment and/or > > my cash only to those who are Pureblood, meaning UNvaccinated. > > I assume you are aware that child mortality was 50% well into > the 20th century, and was still 25% in 1950. It is now 4.3%. > Guess what made the dramatic difference? Yes, vaccines... Now don't you derail someone's political rant and posturing with actual facts ... SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============0010200932800826289==-- From rickb@bensene.com Fri Aug 30 17:36:46 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 17:36:39 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5927439336159170298==" --===============5927439336159170298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glen S. wrote: > Jane, get me off this crazy list. How many here catch this reference? Very nice, Glen....very nice. -Rick --===============5927439336159170298==-- From rickb@bensene.com Fri Aug 30 17:38:21 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 17:38:14 +0000 Message-ID: <6da8ddaf0ed04e9aabb60d23a04cec3b@bensene.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C-pTUfVBufBxn2xITZ9l8h7nDB2EFRpe7UE6F381wWvCKZmHiNV?= =?utf-8?q?Sa-QAfzbsX-fF5-KZZYakdyorY3ly6WKUmbvwVG5huFqbvY78U21oV5v8=3D=40vi?= =?utf-8?q?rtadpt=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6179733071393390347==" --===============6179733071393390347== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred Cisin wrote: > We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. sed. Enough sed. -Rick --===============6179733071393390347==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 17:41:35 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 18:41:18 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2579266312358305636==" --===============2579266312358305636== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit But do the recipients have to be free from all vaccines (would be hard to find an english person who hasn't had the polio or smallpox vaccines) or only one of the several covid vaccines ? On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 6:30 PM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 08:08:04AM +0200, Johan Helsingius via cctalk > wrote: > > On 29/08/2024 23:28, Mychaela Falconia via cctalk wrote: > > > Specifically: I am potentially willing to donate my equipment and/or > > > my cash only to those who are Pureblood, meaning UNvaccinated. > > > > I assume you are aware that child mortality was 50% well into > > the 20th century, and was still 25% in 1950. It is now 4.3%. > > Guess what made the dramatic difference? Yes, vaccines... > > Now don't you derail someone's political rant and posturing with > actual facts ... > > SCNR, > Alex. > -- > "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison > --===============2579266312358305636==-- From turing@shaw.ca Fri Aug 30 17:53:11 2024 From: Norman Jaffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 11:45:59 -0600 Message-ID: <1485102430.177412832.1725039959855.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6080899740127141573==" --===============6080899740127141573== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You do realize that 'Pureblood' is a phrase most definitely associated with t= he Aryan Nations and other neo-Nazi, white supremacist hate groups?=20 From: "Adrian Godwin via cctalk" =20 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" =20 Cc: "Adrian Godwin" =20 Sent: Friday, August 30, 2024 10:41:18 AM=20 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction)=20 But do the recipients have to be free from all vaccines (would be hard to=20 find an english person who hasn't had the polio or smallpox vaccines) or=20 only one of the several covid vaccines ?=20 On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 6:30 PM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk <=20 cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:=20 > On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 08:08:04AM +0200, Johan Helsingius via cctalk=20 > wrote:=20 > > On 29/08/2024 23:28, Mychaela Falconia via cctalk wrote:=20 > > > Specifically: I am potentially willing to donate my equipment and/or=20 > > > my cash only to those who are Pureblood, meaning UNvaccinated.=20 > >=20 > > I assume you are aware that child mortality was 50% well into=20 > > the 20th century, and was still 25% in 1950. It is now 4.3%.=20 > > Guess what made the dramatic difference? Yes, vaccines...=20 >=20 > Now don't you derail someone's political rant and posturing with=20 > actual facts ...=20 >=20 > SCNR,=20 > Alex.=20 > --=20 > "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and= =20 > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison=20 >=20 --===============6080899740127141573==-- From dstalkowski@ody.ca Fri Aug 30 18:08:30 2024 From: Don Stalkowski To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:00:38 -0400 Message-ID: <20240830180038.GA13098@cel2> In-Reply-To: <6da8ddaf0ed04e9aabb60d23a04cec3b@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6352272683910692885==" --===============6352272683910692885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Fred Cisin wrote: > > > We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. > TECO Don --===============6352272683910692885==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 18:08:44 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 11:07:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1485102430.177412832.1725039959855.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4226003741391141551==" --===============4226003741391141551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit People, please: resist the urge to jump into this tarbaby. Sellam On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 10:53 AM Norman Jaffe via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > You do realize that 'Pureblood' is a phrase most definitely associated > with the Aryan Nations and other neo-Nazi, white supremacist hate groups? > > From: "Adrian Godwin via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: "Adrian Godwin" > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2024 10:41:18 AM > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) > > But do the recipients have to be free from all vaccines (would be hard to > find an english person who hasn't had the polio or smallpox vaccines) or > only one of the several covid vaccines ? > > On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 6:30 PM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 08:08:04AM +0200, Johan Helsingius via cctalk > > wrote: > > > On 29/08/2024 23:28, Mychaela Falconia via cctalk wrote: > > > > Specifically: I am potentially willing to donate my equipment and/or > > > > my cash only to those who are Pureblood, meaning UNvaccinated. > > > > > > I assume you are aware that child mortality was 50% well into > > > the 20th century, and was still 25% in 1950. It is now 4.3%. > > > Guess what made the dramatic difference? Yes, vaccines... > > > > Now don't you derail someone's political rant and posturing with > > actual facts ... > > > > SCNR, > > Alex. > > -- > > "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls > and > > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison > > > --===============4226003741391141551==-- From falcon@freecalypso.org Fri Aug 30 18:27:10 2024 From: Mychaela Falconia To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 10:26:54 -0800 Message-ID: <20240830182702.03DC13740235@freecalypso.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4863024899238325348==" --===============4863024899238325348== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > But do the recipients have to be free from all vaccines (would be hard to > find an english person who hasn't had the polio or smallpox vaccines) or > only one of the several covid vaccines ? Sorry, my bad for not stating this part explicitly - I meant specifically scamdemic vaccines OR any other vaccine that was administered in the post-scamdemic world. For non-Covid vaccines, I use the midpoint of 2020 as my rule of thumb - anything before that time point, I consider it safe (unless it was explicitly a Covid vaxx in experimental development), but for anything after that time point, I consider any vaccine injections to be potentially tainted until proven otherwise. I wasn't an antivaxxer prior to the imposition of 2020-March tyranny of evil - but the scamdemic _made_ me into a total antivaxxer now. M~ --===============4863024899238325348==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 30 19:24:42 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 13:24:34 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1279230704287253331==" --===============1279230704287253331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-08-29 1:53 p.m., Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 29/08/2024 17:27, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> The solution is right in front of us.   One of us here has to become a >> multi-billionaire and create a museum to save all this stuff!  Let the >> fighting and bickering begin! >> >> Any ideas on how to become a billionaire? > > > Let me start by saying this is my idea, I thought of it first and I'm > declaring copyright on it. > > If everyone on this list sends me just 0.5% of their total wealth, I > promise to try really hard to preserve some retro computing stuff. Honest. > > > USDC would be best please, I'll set up a wallet as soon as the first > donor steps up :-) > > > Antonio MONEY SUCK PROGRAM ARE YOU SURE! (Y/N) --===============1279230704287253331==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 30 19:26:56 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 13:26:48 -0600 Message-ID: <2b8b92c8-692d-4cc4-977c-77f4b111499f@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <20240830180038.GA13098@cel2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3339420955501168184==" --===============3339420955501168184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-08-30 12:00 p.m., Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: >> Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. >> > > TECO > > Don Does anybody use that any more? --===============3339420955501168184==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Aug 30 19:33:14 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 15:33:07 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1485102430.177412832.1725039959855.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8047223387891113443==" --===============8047223387891113443== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/30/2024 1:45 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > You do realize that 'Pureblood' is a phrase most definitely associated with= the Aryan Nations and other neo-Nazi, white supremacist hate groups? >=20 And Wizards and Witches. Don't forget them. bill --===============8047223387891113443==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Aug 30 19:36:42 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:36:33 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8P221MB1469D85C2B51D34184F2F2EBED972=40LV8P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1469=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1643808301637936004==" --===============1643808301637936004== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We can't have any mud bloods amongst our ranks, now can we. 😂 On 8/30/2024 2:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/30/2024 1:45 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >> You do realize that 'Pureblood' is a phrase most definitely >> associated with the Aryan Nations and other neo-Nazi, white >> supremacist hate groups? >> > > And Wizards and Witches.  Don't forget them. > > bill > --===============1643808301637936004==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Aug 30 19:59:10 2024 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 12:49:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240830182702.03DC13740235@freecalypso.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7486043629543185089==" --===============7486043629543185089== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 30 Aug 2024, Mychaela Falconia via cctalk wrote: > Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > >> But do the recipients have to be free from all vaccines (would be hard to >> find an english person who hasn't had the polio or smallpox vaccines) or >> only one of the several covid vaccines ? > > Sorry, my bad for not stating this part explicitly - I meant > specifically scamdemic vaccines OR any other vaccine that was > administered in the post-scamdemic world. For non-Covid vaccines, > I use the midpoint of 2020 as my rule of thumb - anything before that > time point, I consider it safe (unless it was explicitly a Covid vaxx > in experimental development), but for anything after that time point, > I consider any vaccine injections to be potentially tainted until > proven otherwise. > > I wasn't an antivaxxer prior to the imposition of 2020-March tyranny > of evil - but the scamdemic _made_ me into a total antivaxxer now. > You know, next time instead of writing all that text, just write, "I'm a complete fucking idiot!" It means the same thing but takes up so much less space. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============7486043629543185089==-- From dstalkowski@ody.ca Fri Aug 30 20:37:24 2024 From: Don Stalkowski To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 16:37:45 -0400 Message-ID: <20240830203745.GA19682@cel2> In-Reply-To: <2b8b92c8-692d-4cc4-977c-77f4b111499f@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5055618994144900738==" --===============5055618994144900738== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 01:26:48PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-08-30 12:00 p.m., Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: > > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > > > > We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. > > > > > > > TECO > > > > Don > Does anybody use that any more? > > > Yes, and mung also. Don --===============5055618994144900738==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 20:37:46 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 21:37:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2b8b92c8-692d-4cc4-977c-77f4b111499f@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3919538774621305589==" --===============3919538774621305589== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I did use it, in my first job. Sometimes have an urge to go back to it but I seem to be too lazy. $$ On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 8:34 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-08-30 12:00 p.m., Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: > >> Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > >>> We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. > >> > > > > TECO > > > > Don > Does anybody use that any more? > > > --===============3919538774621305589==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Aug 30 21:02:53 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 17:02:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2b8b92c8-692d-4cc4-977c-77f4b111499f@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1194295778377813580==" --===============1194295778377813580== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 30, 2024, at 3:26 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2024-08-30 12:00 p.m., Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: >>> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>=20 >>>> We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. >>>=20 >> TECO >> Don > Does anybody use that any more? Yes, I do. I even have a version implemented in Python for use on platforms = that can't run the original. (The Python version has the neat property that = it can edit Unicode text...) paul --===============1194295778377813580==-- From milovelimirovic@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 21:53:37 2024 From: Milo =?utf-8?q?Velimirovi=C4=87?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TECO Was: LCM auction Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 16:53:19 -0500 Message-ID: <8964C624-2986-44BD-9E6B-06FC806A096E@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3982375085888778650==" --===============3982375085888778650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used it at my first job =E2=80=94 writing DIBOL applications. We used the K= ED (?) macros with VT52s to get screen editor functionality. I still have one= of those keypad condoms. I s=E2=80=99pose now that I have a PiPD-10 I should= see if TECO and KED still feel good enough to use. Mostly nowadays I use vi or macOS TextEdit.app=E2=80=94I was never infected w= ith emacs. =E2=80=94Milo > On Aug 30, 2024, at 3:37=E2=80=AFPM, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I did use it, in my first job. Sometimes have an urge to go back to it but > I seem to be too lazy. > $$ >=20 > On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 8:34=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> On 2024-08-30 12:00 p.m., Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: >>>> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> We have our own non-theological religious wars, such as vi vs emacs. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> TECO >>>=20 >>> Don >> Does anybody use that any more? >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 --===============3982375085888778650==-- From doug@doughq.com Fri Aug 30 23:38:11 2024 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 09:37:52 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4467235168192077951==" --===============4467235168192077951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I never thought I would write this, but can we please keep drug induced Scandemic theories off list. I would have thought that as a group of technical people we would all have been capable of thought and could read. There was a pandemic. There were vaccines of varying levels of success developed insanely quickly. They were succesfull in slowing down hospitalisation rates, which was all they needed to do. Humanity is better for them. If you disagree, please turn your computers over to another list member, put on a tin hat, and go somewhere else. By the way, the earth is round... Sigh... On Sat, 31 Aug 2024, 5:59 am geneb via cctalk, wrote: > On Fri, 30 Aug 2024, Mychaela Falconia via cctalk wrote: > > > Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > > > >> But do the recipients have to be free from all vaccines (would be hard > to > >> find an english person who hasn't had the polio or smallpox vaccines) or > >> only one of the several covid vaccines ? > > > > Sorry, my bad for not stating this part explicitly - I meant > > specifically scamdemic vaccines OR any other vaccine that was > > administered in the post-scamdemic world. For non-Covid vaccines, > > I use the midpoint of 2020 as my rule of thumb - anything before that > > time point, I consider it safe (unless it was explicitly a Covid vaxx > > in experimental development), but for anything after that time point, > > I consider any vaccine injections to be potentially tainted until > > proven otherwise. > > > > I wasn't an antivaxxer prior to the imposition of 2020-March tyranny > > of evil - but the scamdemic _made_ me into a total antivaxxer now. > > > > You know, next time instead of writing all that text, just write, "I'm a > complete fucking idiot!" It means the same thing but takes up so much > less space. > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > --===============4467235168192077951==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 23:47:45 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 16:46:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7188126546264887490==" --===============7188126546264887490== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 4:38 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > If you disagree, please turn your computers over to another list member, > put on a tin hat, and go somewhere else. > > You could've simply asked for this thread to stop, rather than using it as an opportunity to broadcast your political opinions and issuing an ultimatum to probably over half this mailing list to fuck off. By the way, the earth is round... > Any idiot knows it's a torroid. Sellam --===============7188126546264887490==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Aug 31 00:29:50 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 17:29:45 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3627496284936726112==" --===============3627496284936726112== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> If you disagree, please turn your computers over to another list member, >> put on a tin hat, and go somewhere else. and, we come full circle back to the original question of how to turn your computers over to another list member. On Fri, 30 Aug 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > You could've simply asked for this thread to stop, rather than using it as > an opportunity to broadcast your political opinions and issuing an > ultimatum to probably over half this mailing list to fuck off. > By the way, the earth is round... > Any idiot knows it's a torroid. I looked at a map. It is obviously a rectangle, not round. But, Mercator and others came up with ways to project that rectangle onto the surface of a sphere. Minor problem that Greenland comes out undersized on the sphere. But, the sphere projection does have the toroidal aspect with a hole through the middle for an axis on which it could rotate. From an engineering perspective, always wear the foil hat with the shiny side out. If the dull side is out, it will act as an antenna, instead of a shield. --===============3627496284936726112==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Aug 31 02:25:17 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 22:25:08 -0400 Message-ID: <011b1672-2e1e-41b6-a17e-8ef86c618c5f@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8403212142047397207==" --===============8403212142047397207== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > By the way, the earth is round... I'm glad we can agree on this. Of course the Earth is round. It's also hollow. To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an extended memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap backplane and enough cards to make it work but I've never done wire-wrap on this sort of scale. I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of wire. Is there any sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping? C --===============8403212142047397207==-- From thedestructionchannel2000@gmail.com Sat Aug 31 02:26:19 2024 From: CJ Reha To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Tektronix XD88 information/advice sought Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 22:26:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6007933685100408458==" --===============6007933685100408458== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks - I come humbly seeking help in regards to bringing up a strange and quite rare Tektronix workstation from the late 80s/early 90s. TEXT WALL WARNING! For the uninitiated, the XD88 was Tek's final attempt at penetrating the graphics workstation market before ultimately giving up and exclusively selling X terminals. They are Motorola 88k-based machines running UTek V, Tek's inhouse SVR3 port. The tower machines are quite interesting in that the "compute" and "graphics engine" sides are modular, technically independent, and can be run standalone or stacked together for more compute/graphics power depending on the customer's needs. They are also the only machines I have ever seen that use the IEEE 896 "Futurebus," and although I could ramble for much longer, I should get to the point... The VCF museum in New Jersey has an XD88/30 on permanent loan along with its accompanying monitor, intact with original disks, but unfortunately no peripherals. Over the past year or so I've slowly worked to restore it to functionality and I have finally hit a roadblock I'm not sure I can figure out alone. We were able to slurp an intact copy of UTek V off the original hard drive before it failed, and after some power supply maintenance were able to actually boot the machine off a SCSI emulator. It appears the hardware itself is fully functional as the machine passes all diagnostics and we are even able to navigate the filesystem over serial console. But not having a keyboard means the system will not start X or do anything graphical, as it assumes it is an XD88/01 headless machine. We acquired a keyboard -- at moderate expense, they're unfortunately quite desirable to collectors for some reason -- but quickly came to the realization we were missing something else as the connectors were physically incompatible and entirely different pinouts electrically. It turns out, as mentioned in the manuals (available on the Tek wiki), the /30 (and probably /35) machines specifically use an "MIS" module inline with the keyboard to combine inputs with the optional dial box. We do not have this box and the manuals do not elaborate on if the box is "smart"/actually does anything beyond simply combine pinouts. By beeping both sides out and making up a little adapter with DuPont wires, we were able to power up the keyboard and get it receiving data from the computer enough to come out of a "lock-out" mode and start being able to transmit data of its own...but we have not yet figured out how to get the computer to recognize its keyboard and take in data to display on the screen. Without knowing if we're missing any translating logic in the MIS box, we are at a bit of a brick wall. I have some very rough pinout scribblings I can provide to try to make this less confusing, and I haven't totally exhausted adapter combinations to try...but I am putting out a plead for help! If anyone has an XD88, or worked with them in any capacity, I'd absolutely love to talk and compare notes. I threw some images of the system in an Imgur album for those interested: https://imgur.com/a/YFEbijI Once we're able to get the system booted and able to wipe potential PII I would be happy to share the disk image, since I know software for them is basically nonexistent and a handful of the surviving machines were recovered diskless. In general I am working on putting together a public page with my notes and research on the machine to hopefully help anyone who might have one. Any questions and comments are welcome! Take care, CJ R. --===============6007933685100408458==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Aug 31 04:21:38 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 21:20:32 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7226165669694110739==" --===============7226165669694110739== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 5:39=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> If you disagree, please turn your computers over to another list member, > >> put on a tin hat, and go somewhere else. > > and, we come full circle back to the original question of how to turn your > computers over to another list member. > Nice save. I'm almost done with a full set of Revocable Living Trust papers, designed specifically for computer collectors, which should make this easy. Making final touches prior to release have been put on temporary hold whilst I finish the move of my collection. In the process, I located several boxes of computer brochures and pamphlets and mailings long ago sent to one Fred Cisin that I received from you over 20 years ago (closer to 30 now) and that you received anywhere from 20-30 years prior to that. With the patina of time, a lot of this stuff has matured into some very interesting literature for period study. There were so many computer shows back then that I had never known about. Personal computers were a really big thing back in the early 1980s. But, the sphere projection does have the toroidal aspect with a hole > through the middle for an axis on which it could rotate. > See? It simply manifests as a strange artifact on the Mercator map, which only serves as more evidence of the earth's torroidal nature. From an engineering perspective, always wear the foil hat with the shiny > side out. If the dull side is out, it will act as an antenna, instead of > a shield. > Yeah, but if you wear the shiny side in, it reflects one's own brilliance back upon itself, thereby amplifying it. It's like sniffing one's own farts, but virtually. Sellam --===============7226165669694110739==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 31 04:41:10 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 22:40:58 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <011b1672-2e1e-41b6-a17e-8ef86c618c5f@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7528174826552323312==" --===============7528174826552323312== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> By the way, the earth is round... > > I'm glad we can agree on this. Of course the Earth is round. > > It's also hollow.Oh it is a donut!> > To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an extended > memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap backplane and > enough cards to make it work but I've never done wire-wrap on this sort > of scale. > > I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of wire. Is there > any sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping? I think back then they used different wire wrap sized wire on the back planes --===============7528174826552323312==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Sat Aug 31 05:55:49 2024 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Back-plane wrap (was Re: Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction)) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 22:55:44 -0700 Message-ID: <9e3b4b64-58b1-46ce-af78-2d6527a96d0d@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <011b1672-2e1e-41b6-a17e-8ef86c618c5f@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1085383254699706960==" --===============1085383254699706960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/30/2024 7:25 PM, cz via cctalk wrote: > To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an extended > memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap backplane and > enough cards to make it work but I've never done wire-wrap on this sort > of scale. > > I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of wire. Is there > any sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping? Some of the older (single-sided especially) DEC back-planes were wrapped with heavier gauge wire, which needs a different tool. The newer back-planes seem to be wrapped with 30 gauge wire. You can tell the old connector blocks, as the pins appear rectangular, rather then square. There are all kinds of opportunity for optimizing routing for distance, cross-talk and and other esoterica. One thing that's worth doing, though, is to wrap for a max height of two, and such that all the connections (except possibly the last end of a given signal) are at the same height. So, if A B C and D are to be connected together, you connect A to B, then C to D (thus all at the lower level), then put the connection of B to C at a higher level. This dramatically cuts down on the amount you have to *unwrap* to fix something. Avoid situations which cross the height boundary, because then you have to keep unwrapping stuff you'd rather not, to expose the buried lower side. If you are wrapping by hand, you can be assured that you *will* make mistakes and have to fix something. I predict you will also find that you are really sick of wire-wrap long before you are done. These days, PCBs are inexpensive, and less error prone (in the sense that you almost always end up with exactly the connections in the netlist). OTOH, connectors are expensive and hard to reuse when soldered to a PCB. So you've got to be really confident of your netlist. You might consider investing in a tool where you pull the trigger to do the wrap. You'll probably get a more consistent result, and significantly fewer repetitive motion issues. Hope that helps! Vince --===============1085383254699706960==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sat Aug 31 14:29:54 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Back-plane wrap (was Re: Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction)) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 10:29:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9e3b4b64-58b1-46ce-af78-2d6527a96d0d@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2867107811773479879==" --===============2867107811773479879== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If I can find it, is anyone interested in a battery-powered wire wrap tool? Not sure of the diameter but it's larger than an IC socket, so I suspect that it is in fact for a backplane. Postage from Toronto. On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 1:55 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 8/30/2024 7:25 PM, cz via cctalk wrote: > > To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an extended > > memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap backplane and > > enough cards to make it work but I've never done wire-wrap on this sort > > of scale. > > > > I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of wire. Is there > > any sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping? > > Some of the older (single-sided especially) DEC back-planes were wrapped > with heavier gauge wire, which needs a different tool. The newer > back-planes seem to be wrapped with 30 gauge wire. You can tell the old > connector blocks, as the pins appear rectangular, rather then square. > > There are all kinds of opportunity for optimizing routing for distance, > cross-talk and and other esoterica. One thing that's worth doing, > though, is to wrap for a max height of two, and such that all the > connections (except possibly the last end of a given signal) are at the > same height. So, if A B C and D are to be connected together, you > connect A to B, then C to D (thus all at the lower level), then put the > connection of B to C at a higher level. This dramatically cuts down on > the amount you have to *unwrap* to fix something. Avoid situations which > cross the height boundary, because then you have to keep unwrapping > stuff you'd rather not, to expose the buried lower side. > > If you are wrapping by hand, you can be assured that you *will* make > mistakes and have to fix something. > > I predict you will also find that you are really sick of wire-wrap long > before you are done. These days, PCBs are inexpensive, and less error > prone (in the sense that you almost always end up with exactly the > connections in the netlist). OTOH, connectors are expensive and hard to > reuse when soldered to a PCB. So you've got to be really confident of > your netlist. > > You might consider investing in a tool where you pull the trigger to do > the wrap. You'll probably get a more consistent result, and > significantly fewer repetitive motion issues. > > Hope that helps! > > Vince > --===============2867107811773479879==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Aug 31 14:48:52 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 09:48:46 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <011b1672-2e1e-41b6-a17e-8ef86c618c5f@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8068930938644906960==" --===============8068930938644906960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/30/24 21:25, cz via cctalk wrote: >> By the way, the earth is round... > > I'm glad we can agree on this. Of course the Earth is round. > > It's also hollow. > > To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an > extended memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire > wrap backplane and enough cards to make it work but I've > never done wire-wrap on this sort of scale. > > I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of > wire. Is there any sites that discuss how to do reasonable > wire-wrapping? I have a program that takes coordinates of ICs and/or connectors and a net list and creates a wiring list for first-level and 2nd level wires with shortest length. It tells what length wire to use. It is written in Pascal, and uses a genetic algorithm to find the shortest path.  Sometimes that doesn't give the best wire routing, but it tries.  I have not used this program in several decades, but I'd be glad to give it to you. Jon --===============8068930938644906960==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Aug 31 14:52:59 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 09:52:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5434283769622143908==" --===============5434283769622143908== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/30/24 23:40, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> By the way, the earth is round... > > > > I'm glad we can agree on this. Of course the Earth is > round. > > > > It's also hollow.Oh it is a donut!> > > To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make > an extended > > memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap > backplane and > > enough cards to make it work but I've never done > wire-wrap on this sort > > of scale. > > > > I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of > wire. Is there > > any sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping? > >  I think back then they used different wire wrap sized > wire on the back planes > Oh, yes, the older DEC backplanes MIGHT have used a different wire size.  But, all I am familiar with seem to have used #30 AWG wire.  But, I have not worked extensively with PDP-8's, but I'm pretty sure by the 8L they would have used the #30 wire. Jon --===============5434283769622143908==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sat Aug 31 17:50:42 2024 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 19:34:40 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <011b1672-2e1e-41b6-a17e-8ef86c618c5f@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6613995323588945604==" --===============6613995323588945604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 10:25:08PM -0400, cz via cctalk wrote: > > By the way, the earth is round... > > I'm glad we can agree on this. Of course the Earth is round. > > It's also hollow. Well, everybody who watched the documentary "Iron Sky: The Coming Race" knows that, of course. SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============6613995323588945604==-- From julf@julf.com Sat Aug 31 19:39:37 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 21:30:59 +0200 Message-ID: <2f0aa92a-d8ab-44f7-9c2c-95a6cc7622b4@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0129415052007921207==" --===============0129415052007921207== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 31/08/2024 19:34, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > Well, everybody who watched the documentary "Iron Sky: The Coming Race" > knows that, of course. And if you haven't seen the original Iron Sky then you will never appreciate Space Nazis in the same way... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Sky Julf --===============0129415052007921207==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Aug 31 19:42:17 2024 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 15:42:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2f0aa92a-d8ab-44f7-9c2c-95a6cc7622b4@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7574986721593891231==" --===============7574986721593891231== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 31 Aug 2024, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > On 31/08/2024 19:34, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: >> Well, everybody who watched the documentary "Iron Sky: The Coming Race" >> knows that, of course. > > And if you haven't seen the original Iron Sky then you will never > appreciate Space Nazis in the same way... > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Sky DIE THREAD, DIE!!!! --===============7574986721593891231==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sat Aug 31 19:46:53 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 20:46:34 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <023201dafabd$6df35f00$49da1d00$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2928551955901866397==" --===============2928551955901866397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On phone, so please excuse the mangled posting. << Thanks to the various people who have messaged me with various help which has enabled me to be a bit more specific on some of the details. Looks like I have... Vt420 Vt510 Data general 6501 Rack mount screen x2 Various keyboards that you can see on the pics inc, I think 1xLK201. Didn't realise there were enthusiasts for this sort of thing so I WONT be taking to tip. Wouldn't want to see something that people like go to waste. Not tested and unsure of whether these work. Not sure of the plugs either but won't attempt turning on as I don't want to damage the old equipment. If people are interested in taking it the please make a decent offer. Not really looking to split it up as I just want it gone. Based on solihull. >> On Fri, 30 Aug 2024, 11:04=E2=80=AFam Rob Jarratt via cctalk, wrote: > Hello Dave, > > I am not on FB, any chance you could tell me what terminals they are and > what they are asking for them? Maybe a screenshot if you can fit it on one > page. > > Thanks > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk > > Sent: 30 August 2024 09:52 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Cc: dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com > > Subject: [cctalk] VT + Other Terminals - UK - Facebook > > > > Folks, > > > > Some one in Solihull in the UK has a few terminals, including a VT420, > for > sale > > on Facebook UK. > > > > They appear to be complete with keyboards but otherwise as-seen. > > > > > > > > Sadly they are in a private group so you will need to join Facebook and > the > > group to see them. > > > > > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerswapmeet/posts/815917 > > 25341583 > > 87/ > > > > > > > > but if you don't want to do this and are interested contact me off list.. > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > G4UGM > > --===============2928551955901866397==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Sat Aug 31 21:24:13 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 21:24:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8687341060475765052==" --===============8687341060475765052== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, August 31st, 2024 at 00:29, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > From an engineering perspective, always wear the foil hat with the shiny > side out. If the dull side is out, it will act as an antenna, instead of > a shield. That's just what They want you to think. https://www.howtogeek.com/114037/researchers-prove-tin-foil-hats-boost-recept= ivity-to-government-signals/ The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============8687341060475765052==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sat Aug 31 21:31:55 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 17:31:49 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CqLczex8uCtgenYpmQ2EMcMsrS4xLPhNylZRnCLl9cuPQORB3dR?= =?utf-8?q?fawSlPglO8TwBLfokwEqgTcnwrBHDyRyQlMm=5F86JYVOXe9yO7hEGaYp30=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?virtadpt=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5560280820369809001==" --===============5560280820369809001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-08-31 17:24, The Doctor via cctalk wrote: > On Saturday, August 31st, 2024 at 00:29, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> From an engineering perspective, always wear the foil hat with the shiny >> side out. If the dull side is out, it will act as an antenna, instead of >> a shield. > That's just what They want you to think. > > https://www.howtogeek.com/114037/researchers-prove-tin-foil-hats-boost-rece= ptivity-to-government-signals/ > > The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] > WWW:https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ > Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. > But there are some designs that appear to have been built around the=20 critical angle, meaning that signals will pass right through: https://lessemf.com/product-category/emf-shielding/clothing-emf-shielding/ 73 de Nigel ve3id --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============5560280820369809001==-- From db@db.net Sat Aug 31 23:10:15 2024 From: Diane Bruce To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 18:56:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7547239986462598257==" --===============7547239986462598257== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 05:31:49PM -0400, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-08-31 17:24, The Doctor via cctalk wrote: > > On Saturday, August 31st, 2024 at 00:29, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > > > From an engineering perspective, always wear the foil hat with the shi= ny > > > side out. If the dull side is out, it will act as an antenna, instead of > > > a shield. > > That's just what They want you to think. > >=20 > > https://www.howtogeek.com/114037/researchers-prove-tin-foil-hats-boost-re= ceptivity-to-government-signals/ > >=20 > > The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] > > WWW:https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ > > Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. > >=20 > But there are some designs that appear to have been built around the > critical angle, meaning that signals will pass right through: >=20 > https://lessemf.com/product-category/emf-shielding/clothing-emf-shielding/ >=20 > 73 de Nigel ve3id Well it is well known that EMF does cause many cancers some of which cause death but I am not sure this clothing would protect against sunburn. 73 de Diane va3db >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https://ottawa.place/@Dian= ora --===============7547239986462598257==-- From justme123482@gmail.com Mon Sep 2 20:05:54 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PdPI-8/I revision question - version 2 - reposted Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 23:24:56 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6658716895326615251==" --===============6658716895326615251== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oscar, I am building a second PiDP-8/I kit that I bought, unassembled, from a gentleman in the UK,  a couple of years ago. The circuit board in the kit is labeled Rev 2.2 2016-02-16.  You call this the 2016-18 version. This version did not come with the LED spacers or the LED cover bracket and the switches have a much larger front metal piece and have mounting holes in them. Would it make sense for me to buy the LED spacers, LED bracket and possibly the updated PC board for this kit before putting it together?  If so how much should I send you? What else would I need to upgrade to go with the newest PCB? If I don't upgrade the PCB, Are there any cuts and jumpers that I should do before assembling the circuit board? What is the correct deposit switch inversion for this board? Will I have any problems running any of the Raspberry Pi versions on this kit (Zero through 5)? I will be benchmarking the new build of the PiDP SIMH software on a bunch of different Pi's so compatibility is an issue. Thank you,           Mike P.S.  Is there any chance you will be at VCF Midwest this year? --===============6658716895326615251==-- From justme123482@gmail.com Mon Sep 2 20:06:40 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PiDPI-8/I revision question - version 2 - reposted Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:50:11 +0000 Message-ID: <1916ba81-ff86-42f1-88a1-0c95c5f00b9e@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2390266476288777236==" --===============2390266476288777236== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oscar, I am building a second PiDP-8/I kit that I bought, unassembled, from a gentleman in the UK,  a couple of years ago. The circuit board in the kit is labeled Rev 2.2 2016-02-16.  You call this the 2016-18 version. This version did not come with the LED spacers or the LED cover bracket and the switches have a much larger front metal piece and have mounting holes in them. Would it make sense for me to buy the LED spacers, LED bracket and possibly the updated PC board for this kit before putting it together?  If so how much should I send you? What else would I need to upgrade to go with the newest PCB? If I don't upgrade the PCB, Are there any cuts and jumpers that I should do before assembling the circuit board? What is the correct deposit switch inversion for this board? Will I have any problems running any of the Raspberry Pi versions on this kit (Zero through 5)? I will be benchmarking the new build of the PiDP SIMH software on a bunch of different Pi's so compatibility is an issue. Thank you,           Mike P.S.  Is there any chance you will be at VCF Midwest this year? --===============2390266476288777236==--