From lproven@gmail.com Mon Jul 1 11:58:03 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 13:57:44 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3858005649512363630==" --===============3858005649512363630== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 at 19:28, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Look in the for sale forums at vcfed.org. > > The Vintage Computer Federation. In my experience this is effectively US-only, or perhaps at best North America only. There is a lot more of the world than the USA+Canada and I've lived in 5 or 6 countries on 2 different continents and never in the US. I've forgotten my credentials it's been so long, but vendors mostly refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's abroad. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3858005649512363630==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Mon Jul 1 21:06:48 2024 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 17:06:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1685162020062031391==" --===============1685162020062031391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > ... vendors mostly > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's > abroad. If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain. Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in 2024 dollars). I declined their "help" and the package went back to the seller to fix. I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear. -ethan --===============1685162020062031391==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 1 22:33:26 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 16:33:15 -0600 Message-ID: <6d028b2d-de1e-4f99-b7ab-955131d421de@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0473724979372088199==" --===============0473724979372088199== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-07-01 3:06 p.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: >> ... vendors mostly >> refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's >> abroad. > > If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain. > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in > 2024 dollars). I declined their "help" and the package went back to > the seller to fix. > > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear. > > -ethan Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA. Now it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA. I expect to pay for shipping from China for bulk things like bypass caps, the same as the cost of the part. It was $5.00 for shipping for The Baker's Scoop Seasoned Frying Flour 3.5 Lb (Pack of 2) off Amazon. --===============0473724979372088199==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 00:00:23 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 16:59:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3253114505470373847==" --===============3253114505470373847== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 2:12=E2=80=AFPM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58=E2=80=AFAM Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > ... vendors mostly > > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's > > abroad. > > If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain. > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in > 2024 dollars). I declined their "help" and the package went back to > the seller to fix. > > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear. > > -ethan > I have a trading buddy in England. I search eBay UK for stuff I'm seeking and he also keeps an eye out for stuff he knows I like, and he buys it for me and has it shipped to his place (shipping is very cheap within the UK). Once enough stuff is accumulated on his end, he packs it all together and sends it as one big bundle, which saves immensely on shipping, but it's still kinda pricey. This all works in reverse too, of course. Suggestion: find yourself a UK or Euro-based trading buddy. I'm not sure what happened--it probably had something to do with Brexit, or the Biden admin--but I remember it being a lot more reasonable to ship across the pond both ways pre-2020. Sellam --===============3253114505470373847==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 00:02:33 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 17:02:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6d028b2d-de1e-4f99-b7ab-955131d421de@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2392093801524997321==" --===============2392093801524997321== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 4:12=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk wrote: > > Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA. > Now it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA. > I expect to pay for shipping from China for bulk things like > bypass caps, the same as the cost of the part. > It was $5.00 for shipping for The Baker's Scoop Seasoned Frying Flour > 3.5 Lb (Pack of 2) off Amazon. > Shipping from USA to Canada is almost if not as or even more expensive than shipping to Europe sometimes. Not so much in the reverse direction, which is weird--when I buy something on eBay from Canada the shipping is not that bad. None of it makes sense, which leads me to believe it's because it's all based on the politics of stupid. Sellam --===============2392093801524997321==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 00:05:06 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 20:04:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4697607402149161382==" --===============4697607402149161382== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad then. Canada to US customs forms (just one, actually) have actually been simplified, but alas, postage rates are still outrageous. m On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 5:12 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > ... vendors mostly > > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's > > abroad. > > If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain. > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in > 2024 dollars). I declined their "help" and the package went back to > the seller to fix. > > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear. > > -ethan --===============4697607402149161382==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 00:27:01 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 20:26:24 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6d028b2d-de1e-4f99-b7ab-955131d421de@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4486434502458293967==" --===============4486434502458293967== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few years ago some kind soul sent me a couple of 5 1/4" HS Vector Graphic diskettes from Minnesota to Toronto; as I recall, it cost him about U$2.00. After copying them I forwarded them to another VG owner in Winnipeg, a few hundred miles from the original sender, and it cost C$10.00! Australia and New Zealand are pretty costly as well; you really have to want whatever it is ;-) And don't talk to me about UPS or other customs brokers! m On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:12=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2024-07-01 3:06 p.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58=E2=80=AFAM Liam Proven via cctalk > > wrote: > >> ... vendors mostly > >> refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's > >> abroad. > > > > If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain. > > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in > > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because > > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the > > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in > > 2024 dollars). I declined their "help" and the package went back to > > the seller to fix. > > > > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear. > > > > -ethan > > Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA. > Now it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA. > I expect to pay for shipping from China for bulk things like > bypass caps, the same as the cost of the part. > It was $5.00 for shipping for The Baker's Scoop Seasoned Frying Flour > 3.5 Lb (Pack of 2) off Amazon. > > > > --===============4486434502458293967==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 2 00:28:17 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 18:28:06 -0600 Message-ID: <7327b424-1e9d-43aa-ac32-8bba9dcd05a2@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7934591127909335285==" --===============7934591127909335285== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad > then. > Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole nobody ships stuff back. :) --===============7934591127909335285==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 00:32:12 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 20:31:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3346427074398336333==" --===============3346427074398336333== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've had the same experience with folks in Australia & NZ, accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to ship it down under. On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:07=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 2:12=E2=80=AFPM Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58=E2=80=AFAM Liam Proven via cctalk > > wrote: > > > ... vendors mostly > > > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's > > > abroad. > > > > If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain. > > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in > > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because > > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the > > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in > > 2024 dollars). I declined their "help" and the package went back to > > the seller to fix. > > > > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear. > > > > -ethan > > > > I have a trading buddy in England. I search eBay UK for stuff I'm seeking > and he also keeps an eye out for stuff he knows I like, and he buys it for > me and has it shipped to his place (shipping is very cheap within the UK). > Once enough stuff is accumulated on his end, he packs it all together and > sends it as one big bundle, which saves immensely on shipping, but it's > still kinda pricey. This all works in reverse too, of course. > > Suggestion: find yourself a UK or Euro-based trading buddy. > > I'm not sure what happened--it probably had something to do with Brexit, or > the Biden admin--but I remember it being a lot more reasonable to ship > across the pond both ways pre-2020. > > Sellam --===============3346427074398336333==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 00:35:50 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 20:35:12 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3153865048189420328==" --===============3153865048189420328== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Odd; in my experience shipping US to Canada is generally cheaper than in the opposite direction. I'm still amazed by the rates from China; maybe it's cheaper to send from Canada to someone in China and have them send it back to the US ;-) On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:02=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 4:12=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA. > > Now it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA. > > I expect to pay for shipping from China for bulk things like > > bypass caps, the same as the cost of the part. > > It was $5.00 for shipping for The Baker's Scoop Seasoned Frying Flour > > 3.5 Lb (Pack of 2) off Amazon. > > > > Shipping from USA to Canada is almost if not as or even more expensive than > shipping to Europe sometimes. Not so much in the reverse direction, which > is weird--when I buy something on eBay from Canada the shipping is not that > bad. > > None of it makes sense, which leads me to believe it's because it's all > based on the politics of stupid. > > Sellam --===============3153865048189420328==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 00:37:29 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 20:36:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7327b424-1e9d-43aa-ac32-8bba9dcd05a2@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8602341066500846471==" --===============8602341066500846471== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ask Ethan; I suppose a lot of stuff did actually get left behind. On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South > > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad > > then. > > > Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole > nobody ships stuff back. :) > > > > --===============8602341066500846471==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 2 00:41:23 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 18:41:11 -0600 Message-ID: <59e26b13-da5a-462d-906c-1559f780d2f6@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5868634129737510484==" --===============5868634129737510484== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-07-01 6:31 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > I've had the same experience with folks in Australia & NZ, > accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to ship it down > under. >I suspect today still shipping is better than it was in the 70's. It is just nobody wants to box and crate the stuff,and wait a few weeks on a ship any more. Ben. PS I suspect some people have so much stuff here, they could ship, to Australia, it could flip to up over. --===============5868634129737510484==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Tue Jul 2 00:50:07 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 17:50:00 -0700 Message-ID: <66834eb9.170a0220.f70c.8458@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6280366911833247566==" --===============6280366911833247566== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I use MyUS for that.. I think they have a UK place also.=C2=A0 Fees are okay = and they will store things for up to 3 months and then ship things in a singl= e bundle.Without them my collection would never have happened.Sent from my Ga= laxy -------- Original message --------From: Mike Stein via cctalk Date: 2024-07-01 5:32=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: "General Disc= ussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Sellam Ab= raham , Mike Stein Subject= : [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" I've had the same experience w= ith folks in Australia & NZ,accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough= to ship it downunder.On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:07=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham v= ia cctalk wrote:>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 2:12=E2=80= =AFPM Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote:>> > On Mon, Ju= l 1, 2024 at 7:58=E2=80=AFAM Liam Proven via cctalk> > wrote:> > > ... vendors mostly> > > refuse to ship internationally and bu= yers won't look at stuff that's> > > abroad.> >> > If you aren't used to cust= oms declaration forms, it can be a pain.> > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amig= a accessory from a 2-man shop in> > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-borde= r shipment before and because> > they didn't get it right, UPS held my packag= e at the border and the> > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 pa= ge form ($220 in> > 2024 dollars).=C2=A0 I declined their "help" and the pack= age went back to> > the seller to fix.> >> > I rarely buy from overseas selle= rs because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.> >> > -ethan> >>> I have a trading= buddy in England.=C2=A0 I search eBay UK for stuff I'm seeking> and he also = keeps an eye out for stuff he knows I like, and he buys it for> me and has it= shipped to his place (shipping is very cheap within the UK).> Once enough st= uff is accumulated=C2=A0 on his end, he packs it all together and> sends it a= s one big bundle, which saves immensely on shipping, but it's> still kinda pr= icey.=C2=A0 This all works in reverse too, of course.>> Suggestion: find your= self a UK or Euro-based trading buddy.>> I'm not sure what happened--it proba= bly had something to do with Brexit, or> the Biden admin--but I remember it b= eing a lot more reasonable to ship> across the pond both ways pre-2020.>> Sel= lam --===============6280366911833247566==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Jul 2 01:06:59 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 21:06:47 -0400 Message-ID: <465cf815-c6a9-4315-9d68-4f43e1d641a0@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <59e26b13-da5a-462d-906c-1559f780d2f6@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0515045908135429352==" --===============0515045908135429352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually I am travelling to France in a few weeks and there is an RM80 platter HDA I could pick up. What is the complexity of just checking it as baggage? Do I have to declare it at Customs if the value is like zilch? CZ On 7/1/2024 8:41 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-07-01 6:31 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >> I've had the same experience with folks in Australia & NZ, >> accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to ship it down >> under. >> I suspect today still shipping is better than it was in the 70's. > It is just nobody wants to box and crate the stuff,and wait a few > weeks on a ship any more. > Ben. > PS I suspect some people have so much stuff here, they could ship, > to Australia, it could flip to up over. > --===============0515045908135429352==-- From steven@malikoff.com Tue Jul 2 01:07:16 2024 From: "steven@malikoff.com steven@malikoff.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 11:02:07 +1000 Message-ID: <2084814605.1999357.1719882127730@webmail-oxcs.register.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6418499266764898489==" --===============6418499266764898489== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike wrote: Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole nobody ships stuff = back. :) There is, and in the past I've acquired vintage stuff shipped back from an An= tarctic Base junk cleanup campaign via someone who was posted there periodica= lly. Not vintage computers though. Also I've found it cheaper to airfreight 1/4 tonne vintage vehicle parts USA-= >Oz than by sea freight, and I had it in two weeks instead of two months (fou= r days air, the rest of that time in local Customs). Just a note on accumulating items stateside for shipment: make sure that send= ing entity gets given invoices for _all_ items in that shipment or Oz Customs= may demand it. I knew someone who did not have the individual invoices for a= n amalgamated collection of vintage vehicle parts and he told me it was a has= sle for him to sort out. --===============6418499266764898489==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Jul 2 01:16:11 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 01:16:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2084814605.1999357.1719882127730@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0052079297648605005==" --===============0052079297648605005== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, the baggage handlers don=E2=80=99t handle things gently so if you coul= d check it ( it=E2=80=99s probably too heavy anyway) it would get broken.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 1, 2024, at 18:08, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFMike wrote: > Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole nobody ships stuf= f back. :) >=20 > There is, and in the past I've acquired vintage stuff shipped back from an = Antarctic Base junk cleanup campaign via someone who was posted there periodi= cally. Not vintage computers though. >=20 > Also I've found it cheaper to airfreight 1/4 tonne vintage vehicle parts US= A->Oz than by sea freight, and I had it in two weeks instead of two months (f= our days air, the rest of that time in local Customs). >=20 > Just a note on accumulating items stateside for shipment: make sure that se= nding entity gets given invoices for _all_ items in that shipment or Oz Custo= ms may demand it. I knew someone who did not have the individual invoices for= an amalgamated collection of vintage vehicle parts and he told me it was a h= assle for him to sort out. --===============0052079297648605005==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 2 01:26:45 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 5.25" Norton Utilties disks Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 18:26:37 -0700 Message-ID: <1e5cc2390c321ceebaa4431956dd966222de5188.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <1e5cc2390c321ceebaa4431956dd966222de5188.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1787473952904168474==" --===============1787473952904168474== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found a stack of 5.25" Norton Utilities disks in my basement. I haven't had a 5.25" drive for years, so I don't know whether they're readable. If you want to try them, send me a PDF for a shipping label for an 8x10x1 9oz envelope. --===============1787473952904168474==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 2 01:35:54 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 18:35:49 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <465cf815-c6a9-4315-9d68-4f43e1d641a0@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8813249505999936538==" --===============8813249505999936538== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could you just carry it, and tell them that it is the disk for your "Personal Computer"? :-) 'course you might need to carry the computer with you to convince them :-) On Mon, 1 Jul 2024, cz via cctalk wrote: > Actually I am travelling to France in a few weeks and there is an RM80 > platter HDA I could pick up. What is the complexity of just checking it as > baggage? Do I have to declare it at Customs if the value is like zilch? > > CZ > > On 7/1/2024 8:41 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 2024-07-01 6:31 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >>> I've had the same experience with folks in Australia & NZ, >>> accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to ship it down >>> under. >>> I suspect today still shipping is better than it was in the 70's. >> It is just nobody wants to box and crate the stuff,and wait a few >> weeks on a ship any more. >> Ben. >> PS I suspect some people have so much stuff here, they could ship, >> to Australia, it could flip to up over. >> --===============8813249505999936538==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jul 2 01:43:17 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 18:43:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1168609518216973699==" --===============1168609518216973699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've long thought that it would be a practical idea to set up a catapult in Detroit with a receiving station in Windsor to serve as a shipping arrangement between the US and Canada. "Honest, Constable, the stuff just fell out of the sky..." --Chuck --===============1168609518216973699==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Jul 2 02:04:52 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 02:04:46 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1940802901398858893==" --===============1940802901398858893== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hda weighs about 50lbs so you aren=E2=80=99t carrying it very far. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 1, 2024, at 18:43, Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI've long thought that it would be a practical idea to set up a ca= tapult > in Detroit with a receiving station in Windsor to serve as a shipping > arrangement between the US and Canada. >=20 > "Honest, Constable, the stuff just fell out of the sky..." >=20 > --Chuck >=20 --===============1940802901398858893==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Tue Jul 2 02:04:59 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 19:04:51 -0700 Message-ID: <66836044.050a0220.20b97.9251@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0183107671036565729==" --===============0183107671036565729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the old days we had a cottage on a binational lake in Quebec, and the bord= er control consisted of a concrete pier with a phone.=C2=A0 "Anything to decl= are?"=C2=A0 "Nope!"Boats passing back to Canada had the side profile of surfb= oards, so low they sat in the water loaded with US clothes and other goodies = from shopping trips.Now they toss your butt in a holding cell if you don't ha= ve a receipt for that $30 pair of new looking slacks.=C2=A0Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Date: 2024-07-01 6:43=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk(a)cla= ssiccmp.org Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: what t= o do with our "treasures" I've long thought that it would be a practical idea= to set up a catapultin Detroit with a receiving station in Windsor to serve = as a shippingarrangement between the US and Canada."Honest, Constable, the st= uff just fell out of the sky..."--Chuck --===============0183107671036565729==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jul 2 02:51:32 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 19:51:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3b1c44a5-454d-4da1-b71a-2ce7f5141c55@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181F2032B81DF25C2351B31E4DC2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8275512365171833018==" --===============8275512365171833018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/1/24 19:04, Wayne S wrote: > Hda weighs about 50lbs so you aren’t carrying it very far. Well, a trebuchet then. How wide is the Detroit river at its narrowest? Seriously, the US-Canada border is over 5,000 miles long, with plenty of opportunity for slipping stuff across, even if it's just tossed over someone's backyard fence. Point Roberts, WA is notable for being accessible by land only by traveling through Canada. --Chuck --===============8275512365171833018==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 2 03:18:34 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 20:18:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3b1c44a5-454d-4da1-b71a-2ce7f5141c55@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4273040380240070362==" --===============4273040380240070362== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Airline baggage used to be a good deal. Size limit on carry-on, weight limit on checked. Sending a tech with parts on a plane was often much cheaper than rush shipping. I remember flying cross country with a pair of VW cylinder heads, two clutch disks, some hand tools, and a loaf of french bread, in order to do a clutch on my parent's bug, and a valve job on their Ghia. Even counting air fare, and 3 hours rental of a floor jack (optional), with a few hours work, I saved them a substantial amount of money. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4273040380240070362==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jul 2 03:40:58 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 20:40:46 -0700 Message-ID: <50bddf5d-25ef-419f-89c4-e1d0c7b861be@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1739864985978484607==" --===============1739864985978484607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/1/24 20:18, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Airline baggage used to be a good deal. > Size limit on carry-on, weight limit on checked. > > Sending a tech with parts on a plane was often much cheaper than rush > shipping. I often took the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with a Samsonite case loaded with 6 10.5" reels of tape--and the reverse course as well. Something about bandwidth? --Chuck --===============1739864985978484607==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 2 04:11:09 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 21:11:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <50bddf5d-25ef-419f-89c4-e1d0c7b861be@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5994648095197765479==" --===============5994648095197765479== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Airline baggage used to be a good deal. >> Size limit on carry-on, weight limit on checked. >> Sending a tech with parts on a plane was often much cheaper than rush >> shipping. On Mon, 1 Jul 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I often took the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with a Samsonite case > loaded with 6 10.5" reels of tape--and the reverse course as well. > Something about bandwidth? Well, Tannenbaum's adage was about a STATION WAGON "hurtling" down the highway, so comparing airflight introduces other variables. :-) --===============5994648095197765479==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 04:33:21 2024 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 00:33:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7327b424-1e9d-43aa-ac32-8bba9dcd05a2@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6737573606671849728==" --===============6737573606671849728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South > > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad > > then. Mike, I do remember. I still have that motherboard on the shelf over my work area at home. I never did get a stable composite adapter made down there (I had to work with the parts I had on hand). The board was fine but the output was shaky because of my adapter. The postage was just Toronto to SFO because it went via APO box. > Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole > nobody ships stuff back. :) Because of the Antarctic Conservation Act of 1978, everything that goes down has to go back. There's millions of pounds of sorted waste that goes North on the cargo vessel every year, including the category "Electronic Scrap". -ethan --===============6737573606671849728==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 11:36:12 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 12:35:56 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2779975389151659617==" --===============2779975389151659617== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brexit made a big difference to postage costs from EU to UK but I don't think affected US costs much. However eBay's US all-inclusive postage seemed very expensive compared with USPS, and many sellers using independent methods have now got very expensive too. I'm not sure if prices have risen to match or if there's some other influence. Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. I think eBay and Aliexpress are managing (surcharging) the increased import costs that UK and other governments are imposing. I recall getting a huge 16500B from the US a few years ago for a fairly reasonable shipping cost but now just the plug-in cards have shipping prices of $100 - often more than the card. I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost. Postage costs are a major factor at the moment and I rarely need things fast. On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:42=E2=80=AFAM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk > wrote: > > On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South > > > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad > > > then. > > Mike, I do remember. I still have that motherboard on the shelf over > my work area at home. I never did get a stable composite adapter made > down there (I had to work with the parts I had on hand). The board > was fine but the output was shaky because of my adapter. > > The postage was just Toronto to SFO because it went via APO box. > > > Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole > > nobody ships stuff back. :) > > Because of the Antarctic Conservation Act of 1978, everything that > goes down has to go back. There's millions of pounds of sorted waste > that goes North on the cargo vessel every year, including the category > "Electronic Scrap". > > -ethan > --===============2779975389151659617==-- From jacob.ritorto@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 13:51:41 2024 From: Jacob Ritorto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 09:51:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2841173463443153193==" --===============2841173463443153193== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ha, cool, Fred. I just recently in 2022 I showed up for my Pennsylvania to San Francisco flight with a 1969 VW MicroBus crankcase (with its guts) in a large box, hand carried it (oof) into the airport and sent it through as an additional checked bag for, I think, $50 additional on the spot. Astounded that that actually still worked. Swapped out the top end in my buddy's gravel driveway in Tiburon and it's back in service. Can't say that I 100% "enjoyed" this particular instance of the old fashioned thrifty way of doing things, but it is kinda bragable :) On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 at 23:27, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Airline baggage used to be a good deal. > Size limit on carry-on, weight limit on checked. > > Sending a tech with parts on a plane was often much cheaper than rush > shipping. > > > I remember flying cross country with a pair of VW cylinder heads, two > clutch disks, some hand tools, and a loaf of french bread, in order to do > a clutch on my parent's bug, and a valve job on their Ghia. > > Even counting air fare, and 3 hours rental of a floor jack (optional), > with a few hours work, I saved them a substantial amount of money. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============2841173463443153193==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Tue Jul 2 14:22:34 2024 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 07:22:19 -0700 Message-ID: <51924025-baa8-4dab-ba83-537565b5677a@snowmoose.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1730974117115455315==" --===============1730974117115455315== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable International shipping is black magic and voodoo. I live in the US and own two cars from the other side of the Atlantic=20 that were not sold new in the US. Because of this, I buy a lot of parts=20 from international vendors, mostly from three in the UK. If I get stuff=20 from them, it usually arrives in 48 hours and shipping costs are less=20 that two day shipping from US vendors (aside from Amazon). A full=20 exhaust system in a box taller than me arrived 40 hours after I ordered=20 it and the shipping was $150. But from other vendors and individual sellers, shipping is expensive.=20 And, between shipping and import duties, it is uneconomical for me to=20 sell stuff to the UK. Some people aren't even willing to pay shipping=20 only. I gave a VME SMD disk controller to someone in Scotland and the=20 lowest price that I found to ship it was $90 (but they needed the=20 controller so ...). alan P.S. A note for those within the US who need to ship something big or=20 awkward west - I will be transporting a truck full of rally car parts=20 from (barely) upstate NY to the Seattle area, probably via I-80, I-90,=20 I-94, then back on I-90 at the end of August. I can make room if you=20 have something to some vintage hardware to move. On 7/2/24 4:35 AM, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > Brexit made a big difference to postage costs from EU to UK but I don't > think affected US costs much. However eBay's US all-inclusive postage > seemed very expensive compared with USPS, and many sellers using > independent methods have now got very expensive too. I'm not sure if prices > have risen to match or if there's some other influence. > Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen > somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. I think eBay and > Aliexpress are managing (surcharging) the increased import costs that UK > and other governments are imposing. > > I recall getting a huge 16500B from the US a few years ago for a fairly > reasonable shipping cost but now just the plug-in cards have shipping > prices of $100 - often more than the card. > > I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost. Postage > costs are a major factor at the moment and I rarely need things fast. > > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:42=E2=80=AFAM Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk >> wrote: >>> On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >>>> Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South >>>> Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad >>>> then. >> Mike, I do remember. I still have that motherboard on the shelf over >> my work area at home. I never did get a stable composite adapter made >> down there (I had to work with the parts I had on hand). The board >> was fine but the output was shaky because of my adapter. >> >> The postage was just Toronto to SFO because it went via APO box. >> >>> Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole >>> nobody ships stuff back. :) >> Because of the Antarctic Conservation Act of 1978, everything that >> goes down has to go back. There's millions of pounds of sorted waste >> that goes North on the cargo vessel every year, including the category >> "Electronic Scrap". >> >> -ethan >> --===============1730974117115455315==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 15:20:42 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 11:19:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3b1c44a5-454d-4da1-b71a-2ce7f5141c55@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0535572617972722659==" --===============0535572617972722659== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not an unreasonable idea with today's drones... On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 10:51 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/1/24 19:04, Wayne S wrote: > > Hda weighs about 50lbs so you aren’t carrying it very far. > > Well, a trebuchet then. How wide is the Detroit river at its narrowest? > > Seriously, the US-Canada border is over 5,000 miles long, with plenty of > opportunity for slipping stuff across, even if it's just tossed over > someone's backyard fence. > > Point Roberts, WA is notable for being accessible by land only by > traveling through Canada. > > --Chuck > > > > --===============0535572617972722659==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 15:31:02 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 11:30:20 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2469521266697123288==" --===============2469521266697123288== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost" Might be worth investigating MyUS. On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 7:42=E2=80=AFAM Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > > Brexit made a big difference to postage costs from EU to UK but I don't > think affected US costs much. However eBay's US all-inclusive postage > seemed very expensive compared with USPS, and many sellers using > independent methods have now got very expensive too. I'm not sure if prices > have risen to match or if there's some other influence. > Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen > somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. I think eBay and > Aliexpress are managing (surcharging) the increased import costs that UK > and other governments are imposing. > > I recall getting a huge 16500B from the US a few years ago for a fairly > reasonable shipping cost but now just the plug-in cards have shipping > prices of $100 - often more than the card. > > I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost. Postage > costs are a major factor at the moment and I rarely need things fast. > > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:42=E2=80=AFAM Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk > > wrote: > > > On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > > > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South > > > > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad > > > > then. > > > > Mike, I do remember. I still have that motherboard on the shelf over > > my work area at home. I never did get a stable composite adapter made > > down there (I had to work with the parts I had on hand). The board > > was fine but the output was shaky because of my adapter. > > > > The postage was just Toronto to SFO because it went via APO box. > > > > > Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole > > > nobody ships stuff back. :) > > > > Because of the Antarctic Conservation Act of 1978, everything that > > goes down has to go back. There's millions of pounds of sorted waste > > that goes North on the cargo vessel every year, including the category > > "Electronic Scrap". > > > > -ethan > > --===============2469521266697123288==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 16:10:11 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FIDONET for shipping? Was: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 12:09:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0457537734762463571==" --===============0457537734762463571== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 11:31=E2=80=AFAM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > "I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost" > > Might be worth investigating MyUS. > > > > > > I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost. Postage > > costs are a major factor at the moment and I rarely need things fast. > > > > A lot of us have storage spaces and we could all possibly work together to create a FIDONET of shipping vintage computer items from one node to the next. I know it's probably in practice impractical on a large scale perhaps but theoretically this might be a nice way to get items slowly and cheaply from point A to point B (via several less expensive hops). Bill --===============0457537734762463571==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 16:37:28 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FIDONET for shipping? Was: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 17:37:10 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1591560396377322507==" --===============1591560396377322507== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is done to some extent on https://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ (also a good model for a non-ebay trading site). A few members - mostly those from the days of rec.models.uk - with frequent business runs across the country will store-and-forward items. That can work on UK distances but I'm not sure about USA - and very unlikely transatlantic. On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:27=E2=80=AFPM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 11:31=E2=80=AFAM Mike Stein via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > "I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost" > > > > Might be worth investigating MyUS. > > > > > > > > > > I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost. > Postage > > > costs are a major factor at the moment and I rarely need things fast. > > > > > > > > A lot of us have storage spaces and we could all possibly work together to > create a FIDONET of shipping vintage computer items from one node to the > next. I know it's probably in practice impractical on a large scale > perhaps but theoretically this might be a nice way to get items slowly and > cheaply from point A to point B (via several less expensive hops). > > Bill > --===============1591560396377322507==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 17:34:36 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FIDONET for shipping? Was: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 10:33:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5948083592499983201==" --===============5948083592499983201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 9:27=E2=80=AFAM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > A lot of us have storage spaces and we could all possibly work together to > create a FIDONET of shipping vintage computer items from one node to the > next. I know it's probably in practice impractical on a large scale > perhaps but theoretically this might be a nice way to get items slowly and > cheaply from point A to point B (via several less expensive hops). > > Bill > This is something I've thought about from time to time. It can more readily be accomplished today with the increased interest and participation in this hobby: there are a lot more collectors out there now across the entire USA and Canada. Sellam --===============5948083592499983201==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 18:10:57 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FIDONET for shipping? Was: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 14:10:39 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3504567428361293096==" --===============3504567428361293096== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 1:42 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 9:27 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > A lot of us have storage spaces and we could all possibly work together > to > > create a FIDONET of shipping vintage computer items from one node to the > > next. I know it's probably in practice impractical on a large scale > > perhaps but theoretically this might be a nice way to get items slowly > and > > cheaply from point A to point B (via several less expensive hops). > > > > Bill > > > > This is something I've thought about from time to time. It can more > readily be accomplished today with the increased interest and participation > in this hobby: there are a lot more collectors out there now across the > entire USA and Canada. > > Sellam > Who knows maybe it could work --===============3504567428361293096==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 2 19:05:44 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 12:05:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5876820581573232884==" --===============5876820581573232884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2 Jul 2024, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen > somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. eBay Chinese shipping seems impossibly low. Does the Chinese guvmint sunsidize shipping exports? Does that influence the balance of trade? (and demise of USA industry?) Decades ago, USA was concerned about "dumping" (charging excessively low prices for exports to USA). They decided that RAM was being "dumped", "in order to drive out USA competition", so USA set up punitive tariffs on handheld power tools, and LCD panels (which contributed to the elimination of laptop manufacturing in USA). I don't understand why the punitive tariffs were not on the items being "abused". Jerry Pournelle said, "How get we get them to dump Mercedes?" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5876820581573232884==-- From julf@julf.com Tue Jul 2 19:20:32 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 21:20:21 +0200 Message-ID: <363d317b-1035-4a03-8a78-95fb4578a179@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5758314624569738133==" --===============5758314624569738133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It becomes a political discussion. On one hand the US is all about "free trade" (when it is an issue of selling US products abroad) but then the US imposes trade barriers against other countries. Yes, the Chinese government does subsidise exports. So do most countries. Julf On 02/07/2024 21:05, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jul 2024, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: >> Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen >> somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. > > eBay Chinese shipping seems impossibly low. > > Does the Chinese guvmint sunsidize shipping exports? > Does that influence the balance of trade? (and demise of USA industry?) > > > Decades ago, USA was concerned about "dumping" (charging excessively low > prices for exports to USA). They decided that RAM was being "dumped", "in > order to drive out USA competition", so USA set up punitive tariffs on > handheld power tools, and LCD panels (which contributed to the elimination > of laptop manufacturing in USA). > I don't understand why the punitive tariffs were not on the items being > "abused". > Jerry Pournelle said, "How get we get them to dump Mercedes?" > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5758314624569738133==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue Jul 2 19:30:54 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FIDONET for shipping? Was: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 12:42:43 -0500 Message-ID: <59a62af0-d79e-4601-943b-ab54d4f8cb5a@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0214696911240115406==" --===============0214696911240115406== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rather than trying a kind o fidonet like transportation system why don't=20 we work together to negotiate a rate with a national electronic=20 equipment mover. Maybe through the ausipices of an existing non-profit organization like=20 the VCFED or maybe an organization of museums. Good luck. On 7/2/2024 12:33 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 9:27=E2=80=AFAM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > >> A lot of us have storage spaces and we could all possibly work together to >> create a FIDONET of shipping vintage computer items from one node to the >> next. I know it's probably in practice impractical on a large scale >> perhaps but theoretically this might be a nice way to get items slowly and >> cheaply from point A to point B (via several less expensive hops). >> >> Bill >> > This is something I've thought about from time to time. It can more > readily be accomplished today with the increased interest and participation > in this hobby: there are a lot more collectors out there now across the > entire USA and Canada. > > Sellam --===============0214696911240115406==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 2 20:38:23 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 14:38:07 -0600 Message-ID: <4fdc7c6c-2a54-409a-8107-a45e9bb66493@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8711960678453128433==" --===============8711960678453128433== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-07-02 1:05 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jul 2024, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: >> Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen >> somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. > > eBay Chinese shipping seems impossibly low. Keep it that way, I need more IC's for a 16 bit computer. > Does the Chinese guvmint sunsidize shipping exports? > Does that influence the balance of trade?  (and demise of USA industry?) Now we talk about it? HOW many clone APPLE II's do we need to return. Why not the "hunger marketing" of APPLE? --===============8711960678453128433==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 20:40:22 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 21:40:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <363d317b-1035-4a03-8a78-95fb4578a179@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4343385387934121850==" --===============4343385387934121850== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was once told that the Chinese government subsidises post in exchange for getting prompt tax returns. Don't know how true that is. There's also some sort of agreement between postal services that means every country gets uncharged local deliveries in the destination countries in exchange for uncharged local deliveries in china. I think this is how the subsidy works - the chinese post being government owned can arrange their accounting so they don't have to balance these sums out. Thus exporters can aggregate their deliveries into a bulk carrier (hence the delay that's longer than DHL/UPS) and pay nothing for the last leg. On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 8:27 PM Johan Helsingius via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > It becomes a political discussion. On one hand the US is all about > "free trade" (when it is an issue of selling US products abroad) > but then the US imposes trade barriers against other countries. > > Yes, the Chinese government does subsidise exports. So do > most countries. > > Julf > > > On 02/07/2024 21:05, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Jul 2024, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > >> Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen > >> somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. > > > > eBay Chinese shipping seems impossibly low. > > > > Does the Chinese guvmint sunsidize shipping exports? > > Does that influence the balance of trade? (and demise of USA industry?) > > > > > > Decades ago, USA was concerned about "dumping" (charging excessively low > > prices for exports to USA). They decided that RAM was being "dumped", > "in > > order to drive out USA competition", so USA set up punitive tariffs on > > handheld power tools, and LCD panels (which contributed to the > elimination > > of laptop manufacturing in USA). > > I don't understand why the punitive tariffs were not on the items being > > "abused". > > Jerry Pournelle said, "How get we get them to dump Mercedes?" > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============4343385387934121850==-- From ylee@columbia.edu Tue Jul 2 20:55:33 2024 From: Yeechang Lee To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 13:47:05 -0700 Message-ID: <26244.26441.565720.11314@dobie-old.ylee.org> In-Reply-To: <6d028b2d-de1e-4f99-b7ab-955131d421de@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2772105095958664255==" --===============2772105095958664255== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ben says: > Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA. Now > it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA. Several points for you and others who buy or sell from the US: * Tell your sellers about Pirate Ship, and tell them to enable Simple Export = rate . This is by far the chea= pest method I know of other than eIS (below) to export from the US to most co= untries, although I do recommend insurance for more valuable shipments or les= s-advanced destinations. * If using UPS, Standard is not actually cheaper than other methods because o= f the brokerage fee. The air shipment methods, Worldwide Expedited/Saver/etc.= , include the brokerage fee. * The best tool I've seen for searching for HS codes is . * By default, eBay US listings since last year have eBay International Shippi= ng (eIS) enabled. Any international sale goes to a US eBay depot, which forwa= rds the item to the customer, and handles customs documentation. *All returns= are handled by eBay and not paid by the seller.* While some categories are e= xcluded from eIS, there is absolutely positively no reason for US sellers to = not sell abroad the majority of categories with it. --===============2772105095958664255==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jul 2 21:10:37 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 14:10:23 -0700 Message-ID: <088ae2a4-daf2-4821-9e83-4d584b7b99f2@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6577327514746768518==" --===============6577327514746768518== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/2/24 13:40, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > I was once told that the Chinese government subsidises post in exchange for > getting prompt tax returns. Don't know how true that is. > > There's also some sort of agreement between postal services that means > every country gets uncharged local deliveries in the destination countries > in exchange for uncharged local deliveries in china. I think this is how > the subsidy works - the chinese post being government owned can arrange > their accounting so they don't have to balance these sums out. Thus > exporters can aggregate their deliveries into a bulk carrier (hence the > delay that's longer than DHL/UPS) and pay nothing for the last leg. Postal rates between countries have long be determined by treaty. Used to be the IPU (International Postal Union), but is now the UPU (Universal Postal Union), which is an agency within the UN. The general idea is for postal rates to be independent of politics. An interesting aside with regards to international postal rates is the story of one Charles Ponzi. --Chuck --===============6577327514746768518==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jul 2 21:21:11 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 14:20:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <26244.26441.565720.11314@dobie-old.ylee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2461830271737885741==" --===============2461830271737885741== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 2:02 PM Yeechang Lee via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > * By default, eBay US listings since last year have eBay International > Shipping (eIS) enabled. Any international sale goes to a US eBay depot, > which forwards the item to the customer, and handles customs documentation. > *All returns are handled by eBay and not paid by the seller.* While some > categories are excluded from eIS, there is absolutely positively no reason > for US sellers to not sell abroad the majority of categories with it. > I have always shipped to anywhere in the world that eBay allows and rarely ever had a problem with it. Everything was made substantially easier (and cheaper) with eBay International Standard Delivery, and now with eIS. The only real problem I ever encountered was a Chinese address that I just could not get eBay to recognize (after a failed attempt where the package was picked up by UPS and then returned the next day because they couldn't read the address on the all-Chinese label...I still don't understand why they didn't just scan it and figure out where it's going that way) but the buyer provided a Hong Kong address instead and that fixed things. The only added step for selling to a foreign buyer on eBay was filling a couple boxes with information for the customs form, which pretty much already had the HS code filled out. You just needed to fill in the actual weight of the product (vs. the product+packaging). Very simple. Sellam --===============2461830271737885741==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Tue Jul 2 21:32:26 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 14:32:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <088ae2a4-daf2-4821-9e83-4d584b7b99f2@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4053260300411900047==" --===============4053260300411900047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 2:10=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Postal rates between countries have long be determined by treaty. Used > to be the IPU (International Postal Union), but is now the UPU > (Universal Postal Union), which is an agency within the UN. The general > idea is for postal rates to be independent of politics. > Previous US president forced a re-eval of this. Which is why now if you buy from AliExpress it's all third party shipper with sometimes USPS only handling the last mile. It used to all be China Post but the US was getting a horrid deal. https://www.vox.com/2018/10/19/17996378/trump-china-universal-postal-union-tr= eaty > By default, eBay US listings since last year have eBay International > Shipping (eIS) enabled. Any international sale goes to a US eBay depot, > which forwards the item to the customer, and handles customs documentation. > *All returns are handled by eBay and not paid by the seller.* While some > categories are excluded from eIS, there is absolutely positively no reason > for US sellers to not sell abroad the majority of categories with it. Under the old Global Shipping Program there were still some odd cases where a seller could be hit with a SNAD claim but under the new EIS it's basically impossible. eBay just eats it in all cases. Of course you'll get barred from the program if you have too many returns or other negative stats. Under the GSP I had a case where an item of mine got "lost", everyone was made whole and the item appeared again from a different seller (who'd bought it from an auction) and he just used my same photos. Funny. --===============4053260300411900047==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Tue Jul 2 22:29:56 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2024 00:29:48 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <465cf815-c6a9-4315-9d68-4f43e1d641a0@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7086282371278828873==" --===============7086282371278828873== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jul 01, 2024 at 09:06:47PM -0400, cz via cctalk wrote: > Actually I am travelling to France in a few weeks and there is an RM80 > platter HDA I could pick up. What is the complexity of just checking it as > baggage? Do I have to declare it at Customs if the value is like zilch? I don't know which country you're in, but I'll just asssume the USA as that's just how this list rolls. There's a duty free amount of (IIRC) $800 below which you don't have to make a customs declaration, or at least don't have to pay duty. Fags and booze have different rules and limits, but you could probably argue that the 200-pack of Gitanes and a bottle of Chartreuse are actually munitions and therefore part of your Second Amendment rights. There is a machine which I want which is extremely rare outside of the UK, sellers who ship internationally charge more than I particularly care to pay, and this might be the reason I finally crack and set foot back on that benighted island to pick it up in person. If I do, I'll likely blow the €300 import duty limit[0] by some margin on return to the Netherlands. [0] Or €430 if I fly or take the ferry, but the Eurostar is a no-brainer for many reasons. The 21% VAT on the €130 difference is only €27.30, which is about the same as a small coffee at Heathrow these days. (There is no import duty on most consumer electrical tat such as computers.) --===============7086282371278828873==-- From stuff@riddermarkfarm.ca Wed Jul 3 00:04:09 2024 From: Stuff Received To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 19:56:33 -0400 Message-ID: <3de3c904-602b-b01b-535b-83b8a78acc68@riddermarkfarm.ca> In-Reply-To: <26244.26441.565720.11314@dobie-old.ylee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4395699943235613378==" --===============4395699943235613378== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-07-02 16:47, Yeechang Lee via cctalk wrote: > ben says: >> Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA. Now >> it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA. > > Several points for you and others who buy or sell from the US: If shipping from the US to CA, ask the shipper to use USPS. Customs is usually handled within Canada Post but a lot of times, they simply let it go through. S. --===============4395699943235613378==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jul 3 00:22:59 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 17:22:51 -0700 Message-ID: <035801daccdf$24b33ab0$6e19b010$@net> In-Reply-To: <363d317b-1035-4a03-8a78-95fb4578a179@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7509882742570757667==" --===============7509882742570757667== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes, the Chinese government does subsidise exports. So do > most countries. >=20 Actually my understanding was the other way around. That is, the US = government is subsidizing (or at least providing preferential rates) to = China for shipping. It actually came up as a point of contention during = the Trump's presidency: "China is still considered a =E2=80=9Ctransitional=E2=80=9D country by = the UPU, which means it enjoys a lower rate for sending mail to a = developed nation like the US. As a result, mail services from China to = the US cost less than Americans are charged by their own postal service = for a comparable domestic delivery." -Ali=20 --===============7509882742570757667==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jul 3 00:28:20 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 17:28:16 -0700 Message-ID: <035901daccdf$e6567510$b3035f30$@net> In-Reply-To: <26244.26441.565720.11314@dobie-old.ylee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3702572195798597785==" --===============3702572195798597785== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > seller.* While some categories are excluded from eIS, there is > absolutely positively no reason for US sellers to not sell abroad the > majority of categories with it. Except cost, time, and of course poor tracking. I haven't used eIS to ship from the US but GSP (which I believe the same thing) to get stuff to the US specially from the UK. I have found in general you pay more, it takes longer, and there is less transparency. It is a good option to expand market reach for small sellers in that it removes headache, cost, and learning curve but the customer ends up paying for the seller's ease. However, if the alternative is not have the opportunity to get an item then it is of course worth it. -Ali --===============3702572195798597785==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Jul 3 00:38:58 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 17:38:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <035901daccdf$e6567510$b3035f30$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4279001238526306130==" --===============4279001238526306130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:28=E2=80=AFPM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > seller.* While some categories are excluded from eIS, there is > > absolutely positively no reason for US sellers to not sell abroad the > > majority of categories with it. > > Except cost, time, and of course poor tracking. I haven't used eIS to ship > from the US but GSP (which I believe the same thing) to get stuff to the US > specially from the UK. I have found in general you pay more > Totally opposite. GSP rates from the US to UK were crazy cheap. I sold a bunch of items. Compared to USPS rates they were 1/3 often. --===============4279001238526306130==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jul 3 00:43:03 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 17:42:57 -0700 Message-ID: <036101dacce1$f3626230$da272690$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5842039444545177118==" --===============5842039444545177118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Totally opposite. GSP rates from the US to UK were crazy cheap. > I sold a bunch of items. Compared to USPS rates they were 1/3 often. Again I am talking about getting stuff from the UK to the US. Generally speak= ing it seems like shipping from the US to anywhere (except maybe China) is ch= eaper than the opposite direction. I.e. for me to ship to Canada, Australia, = Europe generally is much cheaper than if I was to buy the same item and have = them ship it to me from those destinations. YMMV. -Ali --===============5842039444545177118==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 3 01:36:49 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 19:36:30 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <036101dacce1$f3626230$da272690$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5472847858768387619==" --===============5472847858768387619== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-07-02 6:42 p.m., Ali via cctalk wrote: >> Totally opposite. GSP rates from the US to UK were crazy cheap. >> I sold a bunch of items. Compared to USPS rates they were 1/3 often. >=20 > Again I am talking about getting stuff from the UK to the US. Generally spe= aking it seems like shipping from the US to anywhere (except maybe China) is = cheaper than the opposite direction. I.e. for me to ship to Canada, Australia= , Europe generally is much cheaper than if I was to buy the same item and hav= e them ship it to me from those destinations. YMMV. >=20 > -Ali >=20 But are we dealing in rack mount equipment here? This mini looks rather large to ship.=20 https://retrocomputingforum.com/t/20-bit-mini-ge-225-spotted-in-canberra-vcf/= 4234/2 Ben. --===============5472847858768387619==-- From drb@msu.edu Thu Jul 4 00:47:05 2024 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Door / AC power key for various Sun equipment Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2024 20:46:58 -0400 Message-ID: <20240704004658.578BC510098@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1787618066114006194==" --===============1787618066114006194== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For irrelevant reasons, I noticed the other day that the parts-for-power-plants mafia and ebay sellers are all asking $45 - $120 for a Sun 330-2014 key. WTH. If you don't care about the purple plastic on one end, I'm pretty sure that you can make these thusly: Ilco 1043J aka IL11, cut 34244 b-t Illinois/TImberline disc, DSD-44 The Sun handbook says these systems use this key: PRODUCT AC POWER KEY POWER INTERLOCK KEY DOOR KEY E3000/E3500 330-2014 No Interlock 330-2014 E4x00/E5x00/E6x00 330-2014 No Interlock No Key Sun Fire V480/V880/V490/V890 330-2014 No Interlock 330-2014 Sun Fire 3800/48x0/6800 330-2014 No Interlock 330-2014 Sun Fire E4900/E6900 330-2014 No Interlock 330-2014 56" and 68" Rack 330-2014 No Interlock No Key Sun Fire Cabinet 330-2014 No Interlock 330-2014 Hopefully this saves someone some bucks. De --===============1787618066114006194==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Thu Jul 4 02:05:45 2024 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FIDONET for shipping? Was: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2024 10:05:29 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <59a62af0-d79e-4601-943b-ab54d4f8cb5a@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4265299294080714101==" --===============4265299294080714101== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike's idea is brilliant. Corporate rates with DHL or Fedex are much lower than what you get as an individual. If your freight volume gets high enough then it becomes outright cheap. If Vcfed as an organisation could be the broker then it would work well and make some money for Vcfed. Of course it would also require staff to administer the scheme. On Wed, 3 July 2024, 4:07 am Mike Katz via cctalk, wrote: > Rather than trying a kind o fidonet like transportation system why don't > we work together to negotiate a rate with a national electronic > equipment mover. > > Maybe through the ausipices of an existing non-profit organization like > the VCFED or maybe an organization of museums. > > Good luck. > > On 7/2/2024 12:33 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 9:27 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> A lot of us have storage spaces and we could all possibly work together > to > >> create a FIDONET of shipping vintage computer items from one node to the > >> next. I know it's probably in practice impractical on a large scale > >> perhaps but theoretically this might be a nice way to get items slowly > and > >> cheaply from point A to point B (via several less expensive hops). > >> > >> Bill > >> > > This is something I've thought about from time to time. It can more > > readily be accomplished today with the increased interest and > participation > > in this hobby: there are a lot more collectors out there now across the > > entire USA and Canada. > > > > Sellam > > --===============4265299294080714101==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jul 4 04:04:33 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FIDONET for shipping? Was: what to do with our "treasures" Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2024 21:03:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7070715596169199185==" --===============7070715596169199185== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 7:42=E2=80=AFPM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Mike's idea is brilliant. Corporate rates with DHL or Fedex are much lower > than what you get as an individual. If your freight volume gets high enough > then it becomes outright cheap. If Vcfed as an organisation could be the > broker then it would work well and make some money for Vcfed. Of course it > would also require staff to administer the scheme. > May as well just use Pirate Ship then, because they will always have the most competitive rates with their volume. Sellam --===============7070715596169199185==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Mon Jul 8 11:40:41 2024 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Data general MicroNOVA Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2024 11:40:35 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6107924864456973574==" --===============6107924864456973574== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was lucky enough to pick up three MicroNOVA cards and one was a mN602 CPU c= ard. I would love to rebuild the system it came from which was a MP/100 or MP= /200 from my research since the mN602 is a nova 4 instruction set chip so is = pretty powerful. Unfortunately I only have the CPU card a line printer contro= ller and a mystery card I haven=E2=80=99t yet identified. I=E2=80=99m looking for these parts to help with this project.=20 MicroNOVA MP/100 or MP/200 chassis and backplane 4220 paper tape controller 4337 video keyboard interface or 4207-S Async card.=20 Disk controller MicroNOVA memory Would anyone know of someone who would have some of these parts as I think th= is would make an interesting system configuration.=20 --===============6107924864456973574==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Mon Jul 8 12:02:58 2024 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data general MicroNOVA Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2024 13:50:17 +0200 Message-ID: <92a7392d-aa33-471e-a078-2edc8dc36356@greenmail.ch> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLO2P123MB399815694B1C47F9A34D0204A8DA2=40LO2P123MB?= =?utf-8?q?3998=2EGBRP123=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1032110822388825696==" --===============1032110822388825696== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08.07.24 13:40, jake utley via cctalk wrote: > I was lucky enough to pick up three MicroNOVA cards and one was a mN602 CPU= card. I would love to rebuild the system it came from which was a MP/100 or = MP/200 from my research since the mN602 is a nova 4 instruction set chip so i= s pretty powerful. Unfortunately I only have the CPU card a line printer cont= roller and a mystery card I haven=E2=80=99t yet identified. > The MP/200 (I have one) is an AMD2901 based system, yours must have been a MP= /100 Jos --===============1032110822388825696==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Mon Jul 8 12:16:59 2024 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data general MicroNOVA Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2024 12:16:53 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <92a7392d-aa33-471e-a078-2edc8dc36356@greenmail.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2930981645014835793==" --===============2930981645014835793== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reading more I=E2=80=99ve realised my mistake. It probably came from a manual= where the 100 and 200 were mentioned in the same place=20 > On 8 Jul 2024, at 13:03, jos via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 08.07.24 13:40, jake utley via cctalk wrote: >> I was lucky enough to pick up three MicroNOVA cards and one was a mN602 CP= U card. I would love to rebuild the system it came from which was a MP/100 or= MP/200 from my research since the mN602 is a nova 4 instruction set chip so = is pretty powerful. Unfortunately I only have the CPU card a line printer con= troller and a mystery card I haven=E2=80=99t yet identified. >>=20 >=20 > The MP/200 (I have one) is an AMD2901 based system, yours must have been a = MP/100 >=20 > Jos --===============2930981645014835793==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sat Jul 13 02:01:15 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 18:55:56 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2622280726762565004==" --===============2622280726762565004== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm trying to source a new I/O cable for a Convergent WorkSlate (this one is grody from degenerating plasticizers). It's 8P8C with a little offset snag reminiscent of a DEC MMJ, but it's the width of an RJ-11: while an "RJ-45" Ethernet cable is too wide, a phone handset cord is the right width even thou= gh it obviously doesn't have enough connectors. I messed around with filing down= a junk Ethernet patch cord but that's just making a mess bigger than the icky c= able. I think this is a standard connector, but I'm not sure which? --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ----------= -- --===============2622280726762565004==-- From drb@msu.edu Sat Jul 13 02:46:55 2024 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 22:46:50 -0400 Message-ID: <20240713024650.25F9F4FB955@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6943721133106509468==" --===============6943721133106509468== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm trying to source a new I/O cable for a Convergent WorkSlate (this > one is grody from degenerating plasticizers). It's 8P8C with a little > offset snag reminiscent of a DEC MMJ, but it's the width of an RJ-11: > while an "RJ-45" Ethernet cable is too wide, a phone handset cord is > the right width even though it obviously doesn't have enough > connectors. I messed around with filing down a junk Ethernet patch > cord but that's just making a mess bigger than the icky cable. There's a connector system called RJ Point 5, which puts the latch clip on the narrow side, makes the connector half or less the width of a standard 8p8c modular, and looks like it uses internal pins instead of surface contacts. De --===============6943721133106509468==-- From marvin@west.net Sat Jul 13 03:29:14 2024 From: Marvin Johnston To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Value of Intel MDS System Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 20:29:10 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2559889821644946897==" --===============2559889821644946897== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In keeping with a previous discussion about reducing a collection  size, I have an intel MDS system I am kind of looking to sell. This system consists of the processor box, dual floppy drives, two keyboards (one missing a keycap), and monitor. Unfortunately, no manuals or software came with it when I got it some 30 or so years ago. Also I have never powered it up and won't since it has been sitting for a long time and will need a careful checkout to make sure it is safe to power up. I do plan on attending VCFMW in early September, and can bring it with me (and Sellam) for pickup at the show. My route will be I5 to I80 from California so it might be possible for the buyer to make arrangements with us to transfer the unit to the buyer along the way. Generally speaking, there won't be much time along the way since I generally drive 24/7 except for short stops for gas and rest as needed Long winded way of asking here has anyone a clear idea of what to charge. It has been sitting in my garage since I acquired it. Marvin --===============2559889821644946897==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sat Jul 13 03:46:06 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 20:45:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240713024650.25F9F4FB955@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8058068713648762599==" --===============8058068713648762599== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I'm trying to source a new I/O cable for a Convergent WorkSlate (this > > one is grody from degenerating plasticizers). It's 8P8C with a little > > offset snag reminiscent of a DEC MMJ, but it's the width of an RJ-11: > > while an "RJ-45" Ethernet cable is too wide, a phone handset cord is > > the right width even though it obviously doesn't have enough > > connectors. I messed around with filing down a junk Ethernet patch > > cord but that's just making a mess bigger than the icky cable. >=20 > There's a connector system called RJ Point 5, which puts the latch clip > on the narrow side, makes the connector half or less the width of a > standard 8p8c modular, and looks like it uses internal pins instead of > surface contacts. No, they're surface contacts. It looks like Ethernet cabling and has the same contact spacing as RJ-45 and RJ-11, but Ethernet is too wide for the jack. I was wondering about RJ-45S or RJ-48, maybe. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Innovation is hard to schedule. -- Dan Fylstra ---------------------------= -- --===============8058068713648762599==-- From smbaker@gmail.com Sat Jul 13 03:50:52 2024 From: Scott Baker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Value of Intel MDS System Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 20:50:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5644492112722373540==" --===============5644492112722373540== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm not-so-seriously looking for an Intel MDS system :) I have no idea what one is worth though. Vintage computer prices are all over the place. I had a lot of fun recently restoring an iPDS and building some boards for it (the multimodule adapter and a few multimodules for it). I have thought to myself, it would be fun to experiment with a similar system in MDS form factor, one that ran ISIS-II. Scott On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 8:38 PM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > In keeping with a previous discussion about reducing a collection size, > I have an intel MDS system I am kind of looking to sell. This system > consists of the processor box, dual floppy drives, two keyboards (one > missing a keycap), and monitor. Unfortunately, no manuals or software > came with it when I got it some 30 or so years ago. Also I have never > powered it up and won't since it has been sitting for a long time and > will need a careful checkout to make sure it is safe to power up. > > I do plan on attending VCFMW in early September, and can bring it with > me (and Sellam) for pickup at the show. My route will be I5 to I80 from > California so it might be possible for the buyer to make arrangements > with us to transfer the unit to the buyer along the way. Generally > speaking, there won't be much time along the way since I generally drive > 24/7 except for short stops for gas and rest as needed > > Long winded way of asking here has anyone a clear idea of what to > charge. It has been sitting in my garage since I acquired it. > > Marvin > > --===============5644492112722373540==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Jul 13 04:30:07 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Value of Intel MDS System Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 00:29:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7344594634545477587==" --===============7344594634545477587== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just curious what processor and what OS were you running on it, what model chassis? You dont hear a lot about MDS systems even in this list Bill On Fri, Jul 12, 2024, 11:48 PM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > In keeping with a previous discussion about reducing a collection size, > I have an intel MDS system I am kind of looking to sell. This system > consists of the processor box, dual floppy drives, two keyboards (one > missing a keycap), and monitor. Unfortunately, no manuals or software > came with it when I got it some 30 or so years ago. Also I have never > powered it up and won't since it has been sitting for a long time and > will need a careful checkout to make sure it is safe to power up. > > I do plan on attending VCFMW in early September, and can bring it with > me (and Sellam) for pickup at the show. My route will be I5 to I80 from > California so it might be possible for the buyer to make arrangements > with us to transfer the unit to the buyer along the way. Generally > speaking, there won't be much time along the way since I generally drive > 24/7 except for short stops for gas and rest as needed > > Long winded way of asking here has anyone a clear idea of what to > charge. It has been sitting in my garage since I acquired it. > > Marvin > > --===============7344594634545477587==-- From falcon@freecalypso.org Sat Jul 13 05:30:07 2024 From: Mychaela Falconia To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 21:29:50 -0800 Message-ID: <20240713053001.AD36F374045F@freecalypso.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4941529361859070291==" --===============4941529361859070291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cameron Kaiser wrote: > No, they're surface contacts. It looks like Ethernet cabling and has the sa= me > contact spacing as RJ-45 and RJ-11, but Ethernet is too wide for the jack. I > was wondering about RJ-45S or RJ-48, maybe. It is my understanding that RJ-45 and RJ-48 are physically identical, but have different RJ numbers because of different applications/pinouts. I don't know what RJ-45S is. M~ --===============4941529361859070291==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Jul 13 05:34:20 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 05:34:11 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240713053001.AD36F374045F@freecalypso.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0258138276202129919==" --===============0258138276202129919== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is it this one? The multibutton phones like Merlin used them. Not quite rj45 not quite rj11. https://www.ebay.com/itm/163813763385?itmmeta=3D01J2N97M75X5FFPCX85GNV9DNX&ha= sh=3Ditem26240fa939:g:984AAOSwcJNapuIx&itmprp=3Denc%3AAQAJAAAA4GuJK6PHgBGJcuX= UB4xQ2GqRsg56CGc7F9J%2FbWBSJ9Qi0MZYsAtnKFLVSfIYaXJJYcKG5WQ%2BcniGd7WizS0WCpXm= XyjxPC05ohJkA3UcIhv2zHQ0gzctaV0jMugUKllIooGiu%2FfAqTYZbJF1nRPH56s9jmPXwUuER5G= hvAePt7pNJBloA%2FNPFYyZM%2F2HiW8kjcb3vNn7FuC3BYTrW5oq8MHfC6ZiYaBZH4hRiyfpmcdJ= b7g8HwkEfnL4X1yZUQcqht5uwpd4h51Jl4WFsDrW2h7qJEixQXbUoLi77mK9FV4E%7Ctkp%3ABFBM= 0MOeqZVk Sent from my iPhone On Jul 12, 2024, at 22:30, Mychaela Falconia via cctalk wrote: =EF=BB=BFCameron Kaiser wrote: No, they're surface contacts. It looks like Ethernet cabling and has the same contact spacing as RJ-45 and RJ-11, but Ethernet is too wide for the jack. I was wondering about RJ-45S or RJ-48, maybe. It is my understanding that RJ-45 and RJ-48 are physically identical, but have different RJ numbers because of different applications/pinouts. I don't know what RJ-45S is. M~ --===============0258138276202129919==-- From mark.romberg@gmail.com Sat Jul 13 06:06:24 2024 From: mark audacity romberg To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 01:06:08 -0500 Message-ID: <3D488014-F884-4409-95F0-C2DB472D3298@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4867975551668625904==" --===============4867975551668625904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Show us a photo. --===============4867975551668625904==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Jul 13 06:21:20 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 06:21:11 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3D488014-F884-4409-95F0-C2DB472D3298@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0497638140239442928==" --===============0497638140239442928== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Click the link.=20 Cant send photos here Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 12, 2024, at 23:06, mark audacity romberg via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFShow us a photo.=20 --===============0497638140239442928==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Sat Jul 13 06:24:49 2024 From: Nico de Jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Value of Intel MDS System Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 07:06:27 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4994184572718752372==" --===============4994184572718752372== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ah, the (un)famous "Blue Box" ! I used such a system back in the early 80's. I do not recall which OS was used, if any. The programming language was PL/M, and the output was to be burned into an EPROM  (2712??) My system had 3 8" floppy drives, SSSD, 250K , IIRC. The system we developped (I did the telephone exchange part, another guy the communication between tower/repeater and the cars) was used for the gas company, who need for communication between cars, not necessarily within reach of each other, and the office. The system supported 5-6 simultaneous  comminucations between cars, so occupying 10-12 "tasks", 3 local telephone lines (within the office) and IIRC 2 lines into the normal public system. The exchange plus communication to/from the towers, could just fit in a 10 x 16 cm Siemens Eurocard, with IIRC 16  K RAM and 16K EPROM (or 32 and 16) We used normal phones with touch-tone buttons to set up the connection.  In order to break the connection, a special tone was sent when the hook was put back. This gave some problems, as the tones used for that purposed, were rather close to the tones used for the "4" button. So when you dialed a numer with the 4 in it, you never got connected. The problem was solved with the change of a filter circuit. it tought me a lot about low-level programmoing. Nico Den 2024-07-13 kl. 06:29 skrev Bill Degnan via cctalk: > Just curious what processor and what OS were you running on it, what model > chassis? You dont hear a lot about MDS systems even in this list > Bill > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2024, 11:48 PM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> In keeping with a previous discussion about reducing a collection size, >> I have an intel MDS system I am kind of looking to sell. This system >> consists of the processor box, dual floppy drives, two keyboards (one >> missing a keycap), and monitor. Unfortunately, no manuals or software >> came with it when I got it some 30 or so years ago. Also I have never >> powered it up and won't since it has been sitting for a long time and >> will need a careful checkout to make sure it is safe to power up. >> >> I do plan on attending VCFMW in early September, and can bring it with >> me (and Sellam) for pickup at the show. My route will be I5 to I80 from >> California so it might be possible for the buyer to make arrangements >> with us to transfer the unit to the buyer along the way. Generally >> speaking, there won't be much time along the way since I generally drive >> 24/7 except for short stops for gas and rest as needed >> >> Long winded way of asking here has anyone a clear idea of what to >> charge. It has been sitting in my garage since I acquired it. >> >> Marvin >> >> --===============4994184572718752372==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Sat Jul 13 15:48:24 2024 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Value of Intel MDS System Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 15:48:18 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4461392119232926915==" --===============4461392119232926915== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like a MDS 800. Separate drive box and machine. If it is, it is a Multibus system. It likely has a 8080 processor but could h= ave been upgraded to a 8085. It might have a 8086 but it would likely still h= ave the 8080 as the boot processor. Unless it was upgraded to something else, it would have a fm or m2fm disk con= troller. Key board and display would likely be a Beehive ( an excellent terminal ) but= it could be most any serial terminal. It would likely boot to ISIS II from disk. Which boards it has would be intersting. Dwight ________________________________ From: Marvin Johnston via cctalk Sent: Friday, July 12, 2024 8:29 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Marvin Johnston Subject: [cctalk] Value of Intel MDS System In keeping with a previous discussion about reducing a collection size, I have an intel MDS system I am kind of looking to sell. This system consists of the processor box, dual floppy drives, two keyboards (one missing a keycap), and monitor. Unfortunately, no manuals or software came with it when I got it some 30 or so years ago. Also I have never powered it up and won't since it has been sitting for a long time and will need a careful checkout to make sure it is safe to power up. I do plan on attending VCFMW in early September, and can bring it with me (and Sellam) for pickup at the show. My route will be I5 to I80 from California so it might be possible for the buyer to make arrangements with us to transfer the unit to the buyer along the way. Generally speaking, there won't be much time along the way since I generally drive 24/7 except for short stops for gas and rest as needed Long winded way of asking here has anyone a clear idea of what to charge. It has been sitting in my garage since I acquired it. Marvin --===============4461392119232926915==-- From lowen@pari.edu Sat Jul 13 16:11:13 2024 From: Lamar Owen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:01:57 -0400 Message-ID: <1nali9fot6kkt8lbrcvafffi.1720886517060@email.android.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1779830821563647505==" --===============1779830821563647505== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Subject: [cctalk] 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 >It's 8P8C with a little offset snag=20 >reminiscent of a DEC MMJ, but it's the width of an RJ-11: while an >"RJ-45" = >Ethernet cable is too wide, a phone handset cord is the right width >even th= ough=20 >it obviously doesn't have enough connectors. I messed around with >filing do= wn a=20 >junk Ethernet patch cord but that's just making a mess bigger than >the icky= cable.=20 >I think this is a standard connector, but I'm not sure which?=20 Sandman Electronics carries what they call a 'universal' modular plug, 8P8C b= ut the width of a 6P6C or 4P4C (RJ11).=C2=A0 You can look at it at https://sa= ndman.com/products/too5o-blue-universal-mod-plug and they're used for patch c= ords for banjos, like used with clip lead butt sets.=C2=A0 This way you can h= ave one 8 connection banjo with 8P8C jacks but use it with both the wide 8P a= nd medium 6/4P jacks (of course NOT the narrow headset 4P jacks). Sandman carries a lot of specialty stuff. --===============1779830821563647505==-- From roycetaft@gmail.com Sat Jul 13 16:30:41 2024 From: Royce Taft To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Value of Intel MDS System Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 07:55:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3544360838380896151==" --===============3544360838380896151== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I bought my MDS-220 (labeled MDS-120 with a bunch of Intel asset stickers on = it, so probably just an internal rev which made its way to market with a slig= htly different model number??) last year on eBay for $500. It was the startin= g bid, and it was the only bid on the auction. The lot included the actual MD= S with 8=E2=80=9D drive, an 8085 CPU board, a DD disk drive board set, keyboa= rd, an external dual 8=E2=80=9D disk drive unit, an expansion unit to house a= dditional multibus cards, and a PROMPT48 programmer.=20 I paid pretty heftily for shipping (~$400 IIRC), but I could have done local = pickup with a little travel if I hadn=E2=80=99t been mere weeks away from hav= ing a baby.=20 Perhaps if I=E2=80=99d let the auction expire, it may have been relisted for = less, but we=E2=80=99ll never know. So to me, at least, this particular lot w= as worth $500 plus $400 shipping. I was specifically after it due to the mode= l number not matching anything I=E2=80=99ve found in Intel docs online, and t= he property asset stickers being a neat plus.=20 So that=E2=80=99s at least one price point. Make of it what you will! - Royce Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 12, 2024, at 20:50, Scott Baker via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI'm not-so-seriously looking for an Intel MDS system :) >=20 > I have no idea what one is worth though. Vintage computer prices are all > over the place. >=20 > I had a lot of fun recently restoring an iPDS and building some boards for > it (the multimodule adapter and a few multimodules for it). I have thought > to myself, it would be fun to experiment with a similar system in MDS form > factor, one that ran ISIS-II. >=20 > Scott >=20 >> On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 8:38=E2=80=AFPM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> In keeping with a previous discussion about reducing a collection size, >> I have an intel MDS system I am kind of looking to sell. This system >> consists of the processor box, dual floppy drives, two keyboards (one >> missing a keycap), and monitor. Unfortunately, no manuals or software >> came with it when I got it some 30 or so years ago. Also I have never >> powered it up and won't since it has been sitting for a long time and >> will need a careful checkout to make sure it is safe to power up. >>=20 >> I do plan on attending VCFMW in early September, and can bring it with >> me (and Sellam) for pickup at the show. My route will be I5 to I80 from >> California so it might be possible for the buyer to make arrangements >> with us to transfer the unit to the buyer along the way. Generally >> speaking, there won't be much time along the way since I generally drive >> 24/7 except for short stops for gas and rest as needed >>=20 >> Long winded way of asking here has anyone a clear idea of what to >> charge. It has been sitting in my garage since I acquired it. >>=20 >> Marvin >>=20 >>=20 --===============3544360838380896151==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sat Jul 13 16:51:22 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 09:51:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1nali9fot6kkt8lbrcvafffi.1720886517060@email.android.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6142319686092091473==" --===============6142319686092091473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> It's 8P8C with a little offset snag=20 >> reminiscent of a DEC MMJ, but it's the width of an RJ-11: while an >"RJ-45= "=20 >> Ethernet cable is too wide, a phone handset cord is the right width >even = though=20 >> it obviously doesn't have enough connectors. I messed around with >filing = down a=20 >> junk Ethernet patch cord but that's just making a mess bigger than >the ic= ky cable.=20 >> I think this is a standard connector, but I'm not sure which?=20 > > Sandman Electronics carries what they call a 'universal' modular plug, 8P8C= but the width of a 6P6C or 4P4C (RJ11).=C2=A0 You can look at it at https://= sandman.com/products/too5o-blue-universal-mod-plug and they're used for patch= cords for banjos, like used with clip lead butt sets.=C2=A0 This way you can= have one 8 connection banjo with 8P8C jacks but use it with both the wide 8P= and medium 6/4P jacks (of course NOT the narrow headset 4P jacks). Wow, that looks very much like it. The only other difference I noticed last night is it has a key divot on one side, but I might be able to machine that = out. Thanks for the suggestion. I might pick a couple connectors up and crimp a cable if it fits. It's otherwise wired straight thru except to swap pins 4 and 5 for reasons unclear to me (sadly the Bitsavers documentation on the WorkSla= te is truncated at page 97, so there's no pinout for the port, though I can tell from the wiring that two lines go to ground and one to voltage). --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- You're never too old to become younger. -- Mae West ----------------------= -- --===============6142319686092091473==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sat Jul 13 17:43:04 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] A brief history of Cray Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 10:42:56 -0700 Message-ID: <0MMTtI-1sR0km3A0E-00DJdP@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2223237521041782298==" --===============2223237521041782298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Might be of interest to some on this list. A 30 minute video detailing the st= art of Cray computing from the Rand days all the way to its final resting pla= ce in HP.https://youtu.be/SOQ6F7HMfSc?si=3DYTGTcexPZOoNhxHZ --===============2223237521041782298==-- From mark.romberg@gmail.com Sat Jul 13 19:21:28 2024 From: mark audacity romberg To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 14:21:13 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1nali9fot6kkt8lbrcvafffi.1720886517060@email.android.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3901995208295589451==" --===============3901995208295589451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Patch cords…for banjos?? --===============3901995208295589451==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sat Jul 13 19:22:47 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:22:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8117411277654950146==" --===============8117411277654950146== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Patch cords=E2=80=A6for banjos?? Telco service line sets, often called buttsets or banjos. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- Hunter S. Thompson -----= -- --===============8117411277654950146==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Sat Jul 13 20:20:00 2024 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 13:12:47 -0700 Message-ID: <67E6D7E6-809B-457A-A500-A074E561F29D@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7148816749720952337==" --===============7148816749720952337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just received a message from a friend mentioning stuff from the LCM is to be = in a Christie=E2=80=99s auction in Aug-Sep. Online auction, viewing in Seattle by appointment. https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the-p= aul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc This appears to be just an upcoming auction advisory, there=E2=80=99s very li= ttle info. "CDC-5000 and Cray 2 will be offered alongside their miniaturized predecesso= rs in the Altair 8800 and Apple-1" CDC-5000 ? predecessors ? --===============7148816749720952337==-- From lowen@pari.edu Sat Jul 13 20:22:36 2024 From: Lamar Owen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:22:30 -0400 Message-ID: <1qmt7q3ra3ve8erds52pvjjp.1720901919666@email.android.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8190062784864148774==" --===============8190062784864148774== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ________________________________ =C2=A0 >Patch cords=E2=80=A6for banjos?? A 'banjo' in this context is a device that breaks out the conductors of a mod= ular jack to test points.=C2=A0 Older ones were round-ish and had a hardwired= short flat cord (usually 'silver satin' flat cable) with a modular plug on t= he end l.=C2=A0 Sandman carries an 8 conductor banjo with a short patch cord = with two of these universal plugs on it; https://sandman.com/products/too6g-m= odular-2-4-6-8-pin-butt-set-banjo-adapter Having said that, there are pickups available for the musical instrument banj= o......but that's not this banjo. --===============8190062784864148774==-- From lowen@pari.edu Sat Jul 13 20:57:24 2024 From: Lamar Owen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:57:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2477367566623070370==" --===============2477367566623070370== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ________________________________ =C2=A0 >Patch cords=E2=80=A6for banjos?? A postscript to my previous reply.... While 'Mean' Mary James doesn't typical= ly use one, Deering Banjo does have an acoustic-electric banjo: https://www.d= eeringbanjos.com/products/deering-sierra-5-string-acoustic-electric-banjo And Led Zeppelin joins other rock bands to use the banjo in 'Gallows Pole'=C2= =A0 - even Less Claypool goes 'bassjo' in Primus' 'The Air is Getting Slipper= y.' --===============2477367566623070370==-- From silent700@gmail.com Sat Jul 13 22:25:55 2024 From: Jason T To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF Midwest 19 Table Registration Opening 7/14 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 17:25:38 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0181679701204386394==" --===============0181679701204386394== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table registration for VCFMW 19 will open tomorrow (7/14) at 15:41 CDT! See our announcement here: https://t.co/yze7fmlCAH And our table info page here: https://vcfmw.org/tables.html --===============0181679701204386394==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jul 14 00:33:02 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 17:32:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <67E6D7E6-809B-457A-A500-A074E561F29D@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9075623296534416259==" --===============9075623296534416259== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 13, 2024, 1:28=E2=80=AFPM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Just received a message from a friend mentioning stuff from the LCM is to > be in a Christie=E2=80=99s auction in Aug-Sep. > Online auction, viewing in Seattle by appointment. > > > https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the-= paul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc > < > https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the-= paul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc > > > > This appears to be just an upcoming auction advisory, there=E2=80=99s very = little > info. > > "CDC-5000 and Cray 2 will be offered alongside their miniaturized > predecessors in the Altair 8800 and Apple-1" > > CDC-5000 ? > predecessors ? It's Christie's. They're basically idiots. Sellam --===============9075623296534416259==-- From pat@vax11.net Sun Jul 14 00:44:18 2024 From: Patrick Finnegan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 20:43:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <67E6D7E6-809B-457A-A500-A074E561F29D@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0284443893958795764==" --===============0284443893958795764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm definitely a bit sad that Purdue's former CDC 6500 (priming that's what they meant) will probably go to some unknown high dollar bidder. Patrick Finnegan On Sat, Jul 13, 2024, 16:20 Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > Just received a message from a friend mentioning stuff from the LCM is to > be in a Christie=E2=80=99s auction in Aug-Sep. > Online auction, viewing in Seattle by appointment. > > > https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the-= paul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc > < > https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the-= paul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc > > > > This appears to be just an upcoming auction advisory, there=E2=80=99s very = little > info. > > "CDC-5000 and Cray 2 will be offered alongside their miniaturized > predecessors in the Altair 8800 and Apple-1" > > CDC-5000 ? > predecessors ? --===============0284443893958795764==-- From Michael@jongleur.co.uk Sun Jul 14 00:45:15 2024 From: Michael Mulhern To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:44:57 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3879713694916688645==" --===============3879713694916688645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =E2=80=A6catering to rich idiots. //m On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 at 10:33=E2=80=AFAM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Jul 13, 2024, 1:28=E2=80=AFPM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Just received a message from a friend mentioning stuff from the LCM is to > > be in a Christie=E2=80=99s auction in Aug-Sep. > > Online auction, viewing in Seattle by appointment. > > > > > > > https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the-= paul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc > > < > > > https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the-= paul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc > > > > > > > This appears to be just an upcoming auction advisory, there=E2=80=99s ver= y little > > info. > > > > "CDC-5000 and Cray 2 will be offered alongside their miniaturized > > predecessors in the Altair 8800 and Apple-1" > > > > CDC-5000 ? > > predecessors ? > > > It's Christie's. They're basically idiots. > > Sellam > --===============3879713694916688645==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Sun Jul 14 01:50:59 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 20:50:42 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <67E6D7E6-809B-457A-A500-A074E561F29D@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2269614332736793974==" --===============2269614332736793974== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the notice. Not that any of us will be high bidders but good to at least follow along with the community that cares. On Sat, Jul 13, 2024, 3:20 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Just received a message from a friend mentioning stuff from the LCM is to > be in a Christie=E2=80=99s auction in Aug-Sep. > Online auction, viewing in Seattle by appointment. > > > https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the-= paul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc > < > https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the-= paul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc > > > > This appears to be just an upcoming auction advisory, there=E2=80=99s very = little > info. > > "CDC-5000 and Cray 2 will be offered alongside their miniaturized > predecessors in the Altair 8800 and Apple-1" > > CDC-5000 ? > predecessors ? --===============2269614332736793974==-- From mark.romberg@gmail.com Sun Jul 14 03:06:43 2024 From: mark audacity romberg To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8P8C but width of an RJ-11 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 22:06:25 -0500 Message-ID: <52C51A00-4DF7-4D14-9348-BE9ECF0A41BB@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1qmt7q3ra3ve8erds52pvjjp.1720901919666@email.android.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0250319003816845475==" --===============0250319003816845475== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > A 'banjo' in this context is a device that breaks out the conductors of a m= odular jack to test points.=20 Thanks for this clarification! --===============0250319003816845475==-- From blstuart@bellsouth.net Sun Jul 14 04:14:28 2024 From: "Brian L. Stuart" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 04:14:35 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3741233701437722339==" --===============3741233701437722339== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 08:43:59PM -0400, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > I'm definitely a bit sad that Purdue's former CDC 6500 (priming that's what > they meant) will probably go to some unknown high dollar bidder. > > Patrick Finnegan Same here. I'm pretty sure I ran some code on that machine back in grad school. The whole thing is depressing. BLS --===============3741233701437722339==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jul 14 13:47:55 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 06:47:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2091730064683237541==" --===============2091730064683237541== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/13/24 21:14, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 08:43:59PM -0400, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: >> I'm definitely a bit sad that Purdue's former CDC 6500 (priming that's what >> they meant) will probably go to some unknown high dollar bidder. Yup, ran code on that thing when it was running Purdue's version of MACE. Never asked Greg or Dr. Dave what part they had in that. --Chuck --===============2091730064683237541==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sun Jul 14 16:27:14 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 12:27:05 -0400 Message-ID: <8ac6605d-313b-46fe-9b3f-89fb98c77f6b@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7052927079604681596==" --===============7052927079604681596== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Thanks for the notice. Not that any of us will be high bidders but good to > at least follow along with the community that cares. I'd be happy if a rich person bought the stuff, at least it would not be=20 scrapped. But I'm still guessing the "prettiest" things will be sold at=20 auction and the rest of it will go to a big "scrap" bid. If you care, bid the price above the scrap value. Otherwise you know=20 what's going to happen (ie: the usual) CZ >=20 > On Sat, Jul 13, 2024, 3:20 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> Just received a message from a friend mentioning stuff from the LCM is to >> be in a Christie=E2=80=99s auction in Aug-Sep. >> Online auction, viewing in Seattle by appointment. >> >> >> https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the= -paul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc >> < >> https://www.christies.com/auction/firsts-the-history-of-computing-from-the= -paul-g-allen-collection-23618-nyc >>> >> >> This appears to be just an upcoming auction advisory, there=E2=80=99s very= little >> info. >> >> "CDC-5000 and Cray 2 will be offered alongside their miniaturized >> predecessors in the Altair 8800 and Apple-1" >> >> CDC-5000 ? >> predecessors ? --===============7052927079604681596==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Sun Jul 14 17:22:22 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 17:14:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8ac6605d-313b-46fe-9b3f-89fb98c77f6b@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1433782843139606907==" --===============1433782843139606907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > If you care, bid the price above the scrap value. Otherwise you know > what's going to happen (ie: the usual) This right here. If you aren't willing to pay scrap value, then the item is going to be consid= ered scrap. #1 (only?) positive to old computer junk becoming valuable is now= folks know it's worth more than scrap. Thanks, Jonathan --===============1433782843139606907==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Sun Jul 14 20:54:45 2024 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 13:54:24 -0700 Message-ID: <27BCBE4F-049C-47E9-8D74-453C79692243@snowmoose.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CXuLPGtS6h-RD0L0AadueNfCWFj2jC3R9dePc3HNNMzJs8sJq5q?= =?utf-8?q?LHJNOjKKjIU6SO6mxUsDJt3UZPXGSD9djDaAG4MoU4YrBUg5L=5FgF0rkx0=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8398486096156782993==" --===============8398486096156782993== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 14, 2024, at 10:22, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> If you care, bid the price above the scrap value. Otherwise you know >> what's going to happen (ie: the usual) >=20 > This right here. >=20 > If you aren't willing to pay scrap value, then the item is going to be cons= idered scrap. #1 (only?) positive to old computer junk becoming valuable is n= ow folks know it's worth more than scrap. I doubt that any of the items going to auction at Christie=E2=80=99s is going= to be anything that would sell for scrap value. That isn=E2=80=99t an auctio= n house that scrap dealers frequent. It is the stuff not deemed good enough for Christie=E2=80=99s that is at risk= of being scrapped. alan=20 --===============8398486096156782993==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Sun Jul 14 21:25:13 2024 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 17:16:58 -0400 Message-ID: <76ad1b78-e13c-40a0-b26a-ee694b4b5ddb@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <27BCBE4F-049C-47E9-8D74-453C79692243@snowmoose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4288686825866901374==" --===============4288686825866901374== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/14/2024 4:54 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 14, 2024, at 10:22, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >>> If you care, bid the price above the scrap value. Otherwise you know >>> what's going to happen (ie: the usual) >> This right here. >> >> If you aren't willing to pay scrap value, then the item is going to be con= sidered scrap. #1 (only?) positive to old computer junk becoming valuable is = now folks know it's worth more than scrap. > I doubt that any of the items going to auction at Christie=E2=80=99s is goi= ng to be anything that would sell for scrap value. That isn=E2=80=99t an auct= ion house that scrap dealers frequent. > > It is the stuff not deemed good enough for Christie=E2=80=99s that is at ri= sk of being scrapped. > > alan > The natural question to ask is then; "What happens to all the non-big=20 ticket items? "=C2=A0=C2=A0 The museum must have had a collection of junk to = treasure, what is going to happen to the pedestrian stuff?=C2=A0 You know,=20 the kind of stuff we dabble in. Doug --===============4288686825866901374==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sun Jul 14 21:45:24 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 17:45:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <76ad1b78-e13c-40a0-b26a-ee694b4b5ddb@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1482118718902042925==" --===============1482118718902042925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, a contract is secured with a trusted trasher to come in and clear the place out. Much like what happens when an old person dies. They come in, load up trucks, take it to the recycling center and get an appropriately sized check. No point dealing with little money things. The goal is to get rid of everything, not to sit there and preserve stuff. C On 7/14/2024 5:16 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/14/2024 4:54 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Jul 14, 2024, at 10:22, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>>> If you care, bid the price above the scrap value. Otherwise you know >>>> what's going to happen (ie: the usual) >>> This right here. >>> >>> If you aren't willing to pay scrap value, then the item is going to >>> be considered scrap. #1 (only?) positive to old computer junk >>> becoming valuable is now folks know it's worth more than scrap. >> I doubt that any of the items going to auction at Christie’s is going >> to be anything that would sell for scrap value. That isn’t an auction >> house that scrap dealers frequent. >> >> It is the stuff not deemed good enough for Christie’s that is at risk >> of being scrapped. >> >> alan >> > The natural question to ask is then; "What happens to all the non-big > ticket items? "   The museum must have had a collection of junk to > treasure, what is going to happen to the pedestrian stuff?  You know, > the kind of stuff we dabble in. > > Doug > --===============1482118718902042925==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Sun Jul 14 21:48:38 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 17:48:20 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7122312771080923551==" --===============7122312771080923551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 at 17:45, cz via cctalk wrote: > Well, a contract is secured with a trusted trasher to come in and clear > the place out. Much like what happens when an old person dies. They come > in, load up trucks, take it to the recycling center and get an > appropriately sized check. > > No point dealing with little money things. The goal is to get rid of > everything, not to sit there and preserve stuff. > Unless you know something that the rest of us don't, it is pure speculation that this is what is going to happen in the case of the LCM. All of the threads on this topic have been full of speculation to greater and lesser degrees and it's very frustrating. -Henry --===============7122312771080923551==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun Jul 14 22:14:47 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 18:13:39 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8ac6605d-313b-46fe-9b3f-89fb98c77f6b@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7039306629692182013==" --===============7039306629692182013== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/14/2024 12:27 PM, cz via cctalk wrote: >> Thanks for the notice. Not that any of us will be high bidders but >> good to >> at least follow along with the community that cares. > > I'd be happy if a rich person bought the stuff, at least it would not be > scrapped. What makes you think that? Some rich guy may buy a whole computer so he can get another keyboard to hang on the wall with the rest of his keyboard collection. And scrap the rest. bill --===============7039306629692182013==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sun Jul 14 23:04:42 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 19:04:35 -0400 Message-ID: <8355e18b-17dd-46c9-9a7a-ea07e4a1c5af@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSJ0PR17MB5736B753809A7DFF2A45D78AEDA02=40SJ0PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5736=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6118012038694335115==" --===============6118012038694335115== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > What makes you think that?  Some rich guy may buy a whole computer > so he can get another keyboard to hang on the wall with the rest > of his keyboard collection.  And scrap the rest. Always possible. Better chance of being saved than when a recycler buys the rest. Seriously folks: Paul was a great guy but from the POV of his estate he's just another hoarder. And unless your "museum" has proper incorporation, documentation, and a trust or something behind it to survive the owner's death, it's just another hoard as well. And when you're cleaning up after a hoarder's death there isn't time to go through every item and lovingly find a home for it. Especially if it's yor Dad's collection of used Pinball machine parts. (so to speak) Nor is there really much of an economic incentive: While $10,000 for an that RS08 on Ebay may seem like a lot of "value" to us, at a certain wealth point that's not really worth the time to stop on the street to pick up. So you just junk it to save time. That's just life. --===============6118012038694335115==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun Jul 14 23:14:58 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 23:14:51 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8355e18b-17dd-46c9-9a7a-ea07e4a1c5af@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3576527145090081007==" --===============3576527145090081007== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trying to compare a billionaire=E2=80=99s estate collection with people like = us is futile. Most of us collectors will die and our collection wont be of in= terest to the IRS because it won=E2=80=99t amount to much. Pauls collection, = on the other hand, will be of interest simply because he called out what to d= o with it when he dies (sell and proceeds to charity) and he=E2=80=99s a bill= ionaire so they look very closely at estate where there could be significant = tax revenue. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2024, at 16:04, cz via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> What makes you think that? Some rich guy may buy a whole computer >> so he can get another keyboard to hang on the wall with the rest >> of his keyboard collection. And scrap the rest. >=20 > Always possible. Better chance of being saved than when a recycler buys the= rest. >=20 > Seriously folks: Paul was a great guy but from the POV of his estate he's j= ust another hoarder. And unless your "museum" has proper incorporation, docum= entation, and a trust or something behind it to survive the owner's death, it= 's just another hoard as well. >=20 > And when you're cleaning up after a hoarder's death there isn't time to go = through every item and lovingly find a home for it. Especially if it's yor Da= d's collection of used Pinball machine parts. (so to speak) >=20 > Nor is there really much of an economic incentive: While $10,000 for an tha= t RS08 on Ebay may seem like a lot of "value" to us, at a certain wealth poin= t that's not really worth the time to stop on the street to pick up. So you j= ust junk it to save time. >=20 > That's just life. --===============3576527145090081007==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Sun Jul 14 23:44:17 2024 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 16:44:10 -0700 Message-ID: <2755f02c-c3dd-4b6c-afab-362cda08f559@snowmoose.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7472300652559795061==" --===============7472300652559795061== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/14/24 2:48 PM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 at 17:45, cz via cctalk wrote: > >> Well, a contract is secured with a trusted trasher to come in and clear >> the place out. Much like what happens when an old person dies. They come >> in, load up trucks, take it to the recycling center and get an >> appropriately sized check. >> >> No point dealing with little money things. The goal is to get rid of >> everything, not to sit there and preserve stuff. >> > Unless you know something that the rest of us don't, it is pure speculation > that this is what is going to happen in the case of the LCM. All of the > threads on this topic have been full of speculation to greater and lesser > degrees and it's very frustrating. I have sent a letter to the Museum asking that am item that I donated be returned for violation of the terms of the deed of trust. I have not yet received a response. I doubt that it will be in the Christie's auction, but, if it is, I will notify them of this. I am also trying to figure what legal options that I have, even if it will cost more than what the item is worth. alan --===============7472300652559795061==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun Jul 14 23:47:30 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 23:47:23 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2755f02c-c3dd-4b6c-afab-362cda08f559@snowmoose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0563301480457295505==" --===============0563301480457295505== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Get an attorney. They will respond more quickly to an attorney. You=E2=80=99l= l have to provide proof of your claims, though. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2024, at 16:44, Alan Perry via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On 7/14/24 2:48 PM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 at 17:45, cz via cctalk wro= te: >>>=20 >>> Well, a contract is secured with a trusted trasher to come in and clear >>> the place out. Much like what happens when an old person dies. They come >>> in, load up trucks, take it to the recycling center and get an >>> appropriately sized check. >>>=20 >>> No point dealing with little money things. The goal is to get rid of >>> everything, not to sit there and preserve stuff. >>>=20 >> Unless you know something that the rest of us don't, it is pure speculation >> that this is what is going to happen in the case of the LCM. All of the >> threads on this topic have been full of speculation to greater and lesser >> degrees and it's very frustrating. >=20 >=20 > I have sent a letter to the Museum asking that am item that I donated be re= turned for violation of the terms of the deed of trust. I have not yet receiv= ed a response. I doubt that it will be in the Christie's auction, but, if it = is, I will notify them of this. I am also trying to figure what legal options= that I have, even if it will cost more than what the item is worth. >=20 >=20 > alan >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============0563301480457295505==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jul 15 00:12:32 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 20:12:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218108111FD73CAF771334E8E4A02=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3144301980576513674==" --===============3144301980576513674== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/14/2024 7:14 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Trying to compare a billionaire=E2=80=99s estate collection with people lik= e us is futile. Most of us collectors will die and our collection wont be of = interest to the IRS because it won=E2=80=99t amount to much. Pauls collection= , on the other hand, will be of interest simply because he called out what to= do with it when he dies (sell and proceeds to charity) and he=E2=80=99s a bi= llionaire so they look very closely at estate where there could be significan= t tax revenue. There is probably no tax revenue if it all really goes to charity. bill --===============3144301980576513674==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Jul 15 00:56:14 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 00:56:07 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSJ0PR17MB57363543CE66E7563C047E17EDA12=40SJ0PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5736=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4450761714191138093==" --===============4450761714191138093== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, but you still have to do the paperwork. Declare the revenue you got for = it and then the paperwork from the charity acknowledging they received it and= it=E2=80=99s value. PITA Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2024, at 17:12, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On 7/14/2024 7:14 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Trying to compare a billionaire=E2=80=99s estate collection with people li= ke us is futile. Most of us collectors will die and our collection wont be of= interest to the IRS because it won=E2=80=99t amount to much. Pauls collectio= n, on the other hand, will be of interest simply because he called out what t= o do with it when he dies (sell and proceeds to charity) and he=E2=80=99s a b= illionaire so they look very closely at estate where there could be significa= nt tax revenue. >=20 > There is probably no tax revenue if it all really goes to charity. >=20 > bill >=20 --===============4450761714191138093==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Jul 15 00:59:06 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 00:58:57 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181D14AFED6B37ACB8C6CF4E4A12=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1499151359173126723==" --===============1499151359173126723== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The estate should just have given the collection or parts of it directly to t= he charities if the charities were equipped to=20 dispose of it. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2024, at 17:56, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFYes, but you still have to do the paperwork. Declare the revenue y= ou got for it and then the paperwork from the charity acknowledging they rece= ived it and it=E2=80=99s value. PITA >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Jul 14, 2024, at 17:12, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>>> On 7/14/2024 7:14 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>> Trying to compare a billionaire=E2=80=99s estate collection with people l= ike us is futile. Most of us collectors will die and our collection wont be o= f interest to the IRS because it won=E2=80=99t amount to much. Pauls collecti= on, on the other hand, will be of interest simply because he called out what = to do with it when he dies (sell and proceeds to charity) and he=E2=80=99s a = billionaire so they look very closely at estate where there could be signific= ant tax revenue. >>=20 >> There is probably no tax revenue if it all really goes to charity. >>=20 >> bill >>=20 --===============1499151359173126723==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Mon Jul 15 01:05:14 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 18:05:08 -0700 Message-ID: <669475c5.170a0220.82efe.5e4b@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21818551FAFC61CB67EB50EEE4A12=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2073818791488183257==" --===============2073818791488183257== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder why Paul didn't set it up to try and find a group willing to keep LC= M or the whole collection under a new museum first. Then have a provision tha= t it must be a non profit, and if it doesn't work, proceed to auction for cha= rity.=C2=A0=C2=A0BradSent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Wayne S via cctalk Date: 2024-07-14 5:59=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: Wayne S Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , Wayne S Subject: [cctalk= ] Re: LCM auction pre-notice The estate should just have given the collection= or parts of it directly to the charities if the charities were equipped to d= ispose of it.Sent from my iPhone> On Jul 14, 2024, at 17:56, Wayne S wrote:> > =EF=BB=BFYes, but you still have to do the pape= rwork. Declare the revenue you got for it and then the paperwork from the cha= rity acknowledging they received it and it=E2=80=99s value.=C2=A0 PITA> > Sen= t from my iPhone> >> On Jul 14, 2024, at 17:12, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:>> >> =EF=BB=BF>> >>>> On 7/14/2024 7:14 PM, Wa= yne S via cctalk wrote:>>> Trying to compare a billionaire=E2=80=99s estate c= ollection with people like us is futile. Most of us collectors will die and o= ur collection wont be of interest to the IRS because it won=E2=80=99t amount = to much. Pauls collection, on the other hand, will be of interest simply beca= use he called out what to do with it when he dies (sell and proceeds to chari= ty) and he=E2=80=99s a billionaire so they look very closely at estate where = there could be significant tax revenue.>> >> There is probably no tax revenue= if it all really goes to charity.>> >> bill>>=20 --===============2073818791488183257==-- From mjkerpan@kerpan.com Mon Jul 15 01:15:35 2024 From: Michael Kerpan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 21:15:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <669475c5.170a0220.82efe.5e4b@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3575588871515764790==" --===============3575588871515764790== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He ran out of time. He was starting to formulate plans for his museums, but had only got around to dealing with the Pop Culture Museum before he died. Mike On Sun, Jul 14, 2024, 9:05=E2=80=AFPM brad via cctalk wrote: > I wonder why Paul didn't set it up to try and find a group willing to keep > LCM or the whole collection under a new museum first. Then have a provision > that it must be a non profit, and if it doesn't work, proceed to auction > for charity. BradSent from my Galaxy > -------- Original message --------From: Wayne S via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 2024-07-14 5:59=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) T= o: Wayne > S Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" , Wayne S > Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice The estate should just have > given the collection or parts of it directly to the charities if the > charities were equipped to dispose of it.Sent from my iPhone> On Jul 14, > 2024, at 17:56, Wayne S wrote:> > =EF=BB=BFYes,= but you > still have to do the paperwork. Declare the revenue you got for it and then > the paperwork from the charity acknowledging they received it and it=E2=80= =99s > value. PITA> > Sent from my iPhone> >> On Jul 14, 2024, at 17:12, Bill > Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:>> >> =EF=BB=BF>> >>>= > On > 7/14/2024 7:14 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:>>> Trying to compare a > billionaire=E2=80=99s estate collection with people like us is futile. Most= of us > collectors will die and our collection wont be of interest to the IRS > because it won=E2=80=99t amount to much. Pauls collection, on the other han= d, will > be of interest simply because he called out what to do with it when he dies > (sell and proceeds to charity) and he=E2=80=99s a billionaire so they look = very > closely at estate where there could be significant tax revenue.>> >> There > is probably no tax revenue if it all really goes to charity.>> >> bill>> --===============3575588871515764790==-- From marvin@west.net Mon Jul 15 06:49:09 2024 From: Marvin Johnston To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Ebay past pricing Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 23:49:05 -0700 Message-ID: <6651467d-b76e-4b82-8c3b-5ec83fa73876@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1110156840868381838==" --===============1110156840868381838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would guess most people here are aware of how to use ebay to suggest (mostly inflated) pricing. In the past, I have used Hammertap and Terapeak, but they both seem to have gone away. That said, I finally bit the bullet and joined Worthpoint. So far it is the best I have used and at this point highly recommend it . The format is similar to Ebay BUT... it goes back in time much farther than anything else I've used. The farthest back I've seen so far is 2016. It even shows the one Intel MDS system Scott (?) posted about that sold for $500 about 1 year ago in July 2023. The pricing is comparable with the other services I've used at about $30/month for the basic searching ability (all I am interested in.). IMNSHO, it is well worth it as in addition to past pricing, it also goes back farther than anything I've used previously. My opinion, it is the best I've seen for looking up past ebay sales. Marvin --===============1110156840868381838==-- From useddec@gmail.com Mon Jul 15 07:50:19 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] QED 993 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 02:50:03 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7275168324490617584==" --===============7275168324490617584== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm trying to do some organizing and came across a QED 993. Anyone have an interest in it? Thanks, Paul --===============7275168324490617584==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Mon Jul 15 12:05:09 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QED 993 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 12:04:49 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8978794130031259426==" --===============8978794130031259426== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm trying to do some organizing and came across a QED 993. Anyone have an > interest in it? Is this that Xilinx not-quite-a-J11 board? Thanks, Jonathan --===============8978794130031259426==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Mon Jul 15 12:16:46 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 13:16:40 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7013420875939194579==" --===============7013420875939194579== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 13 Jul 2024, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > I'm definitely a bit sad that Purdue's former CDC 6500 (priming that's what > they meant) will probably go to some unknown high dollar bidder. Who'll then convert it or embed in pieces into a furniture set to impress guests, because why not. Sigh. Maciej --===============7013420875939194579==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Mon Jul 15 13:40:02 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QED 993 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 06:39:45 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CrrTi5YpAY2i0DrA2Wgm8VRv=5F4kVdXl3j7g3kvzWM9ydnJbko?= =?utf-8?q?ZLgOKsPGrzPvPTOiL=5FjONcIgZCCkwqd2kQHsJZFM6Hlfvt6-vBwxJ-vE-K4=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3793627191606008843==" --===============3793627191606008843== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jul 15, 2024, 5:43 AM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I'm trying to do some organizing and came across a QED 993. Anyone have > an > > interest in it? > > Is this that Xilinx not-quite-a-J11 board? > > Thanks, > Jonathan > Sort of an 11/93 equivalent. On board RAM and SLUs, but no floating point support. Maybe it runs RT-11 ok, I never bothered trying. As far as I know, no one has be able to get RSTS/E 10.1 or 2.11BSD to successfully run on it. --===============3793627191606008843==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jul 15 13:55:28 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ebay past pricing Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 06:55:09 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6651467d-b76e-4b82-8c3b-5ec83fa73876@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3905395218072095071==" --===============3905395218072095071== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Jul 14, 2024, 11:49 PM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I would guess most people here are aware of how to use ebay to suggest > (mostly inflated) pricing. In the past, I have used Hammertap and > Terapeak, but they both seem to have gone away. That said, I finally bit > the bullet and joined Worthpoint. So far it is the best I have used and > at this point highly recommend it . The format is similar to Ebay BUT... > it goes back in time much farther than anything else I've used. The > farthest back I've seen so far is 2016. It even shows the one Intel MDS > system Scott (?) posted about that sold for $500 about 1 year ago in > July 2023. > > The pricing is comparable with the other services I've used at about > $30/month for the basic searching ability (all I am interested in.). > IMNSHO, it is well worth it as in addition to past pricing, it also goes > back farther than anything I've used previously. > > My opinion, it is the best I've seen for looking up past ebay sales. > > Marvin > I subscribed to Worthpoint for a couple months and found it kind of worthless (see what I did there). Yes, it let's you go back further than eBay's Terapeak search (which is available free to all eBay sellers and goes back through two years worth of listings) but I found the data to be unreliable, incomplete, and it does not store enough details from the original listing for my purposes. I don't believe it differentiates between listings and actual sold items. In one instance I found one of my own listings, and I forgot what was wrong about it, but it had entirely wrong information. I don't believe it's at all worth $30/month. I'd maybe pay that for a years worth of access. Maybe. Sellam --===============3905395218072095071==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jul 15 14:21:44 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QED 993 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 10:21:35 -0400 Message-ID: <261A02AD-6394-4E28-95EB-C34C855B8F81@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1669561363683139319==" --===============1669561363683139319== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 15, 2024, at 9:39 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jul 15, 2024, 5:43=E2=80=AFAM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >>> I'm trying to do some organizing and came across a QED 993. Anyone have >> an >>> interest in it? >>=20 >> Is this that Xilinx not-quite-a-J11 board? >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Jonathan >>=20 >=20 > Sort of an 11/93 equivalent. On board RAM and SLUs, but no floating point > support. Maybe it runs RT-11 ok, I never bothered trying. As far as I know, > no one has be able to get RSTS/E 10.1 or 2.11BSD to successfully run on it. It would be interesting to know what RSTS didn't like about that. RSTS will = use floating point if available but does not require it. But it does require= a good emulation of whatever real PDP-11 this device is trying to emulate; R= STS is known to be more picky than a number of other OS, including RT-11. I'= ve helped other emulation implementers to fix the missing details that at one= time kept RSTS from running on their creations... paul --===============1669561363683139319==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Mon Jul 15 14:25:32 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QED 993 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 14:25:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7400576116720781414==" --===============7400576116720781414== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Sort of an 11/93 equivalent. On board RAM and SLUs, but no floating point > support. Maybe it runs RT-11 ok, I never bothered trying. As far as I know, > no one has be able to get RSTS/E 10.1 or 2.11BSD to successfully run on it. I'd be interested in it for the purpose of trying out the 2.11BSD floating po= int emulation, which the documentation says is untested since 2.11 requires s= plit I+D and usually that implies floating point hardware. Thanks, Jonathan --===============7400576116720781414==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jul 15 14:32:01 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QED 993 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 10:31:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CPfKxJB033bou9aXsuS-L4KIco1v8jWRWnSbP3QW1kJTCxyF3Yt?= =?utf-8?q?D0TQg=5FrOxJ72LXe0CFo5LCiUv5kjRDrOzZEr4Q48ldDNkzT3IsT482enk=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0664177858415449338==" --===============0664177858415449338== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 15, 2024, at 10:25 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Sort of an 11/93 equivalent. On board RAM and SLUs, but no floating point >> support. Maybe it runs RT-11 ok, I never bothered trying. As far as I know, >> no one has be able to get RSTS/E 10.1 or 2.11BSD to successfully run on it. >=20 > I'd be interested in it for the purpose of trying out the 2.11BSD floating = point emulation, which the documentation says is untested since 2.11 requires= split I+D and usually that implies floating point hardware. While it may be true that a lot of I/D capable systems were sold with FP, the= two features are separate and one does not imply the other. =20 paul --===============0664177858415449338==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jul 15 14:36:00 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QED 993 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 10:35:53 -0400 Message-ID: <6BEA72C2-F199-4BFB-9E1D-1CFE7B5FD17B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CPfKxJB033bou9aXsuS-L4KIco1v8jWRWnSbP3QW1kJTCxyF3Yt?= =?utf-8?q?D0TQg=5FrOxJ72LXe0CFo5LCiUv5kjRDrOzZEr4Q48ldDNkzT3IsT482enk=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2421263803704274314==" --===============2421263803704274314== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 15, 2024, at 10:25 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Sort of an 11/93 equivalent. On board RAM and SLUs, but no floating point >> support. Maybe it runs RT-11 ok, I never bothered trying. As far as I know, >> no one has be able to get RSTS/E 10.1 or 2.11BSD to successfully run on it. >=20 > I'd be interested in it for the purpose of trying out the 2.11BSD floating = point emulation, which the documentation says is untested since 2.11 requires= split I+D and usually that implies floating point hardware. >=20 > Thanks, > Jonathan BTW, if you want to test that, SIMH would be an obvious way: just configure i= t as an 11/45 with no FPP, or some other similar setup that combines the conf= iguration settings you want. For example, "set cpu 11/45" or "set cpu 11/70"= followed by "set cpu nofpp" will do that. paul --===============2421263803704274314==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Jul 15 16:52:07 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Neurodata Catwriter Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 17:51:50 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4088001967368727520==" --===============4088001967368727520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This seems to be a Belgian computer that draws a total blank on Google. https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerclub/posts/8562290167137607/ Anyone ever heard of it? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4088001967368727520==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Jul 15 17:07:21 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 01:20:20 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7835528475425323684==" --===============7835528475425323684== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep. Civil legal stuff takes a lot of time to get done, especially if you nee= d court time. Civil proceedings take a back seat to criminal proceedings so s= cheduling is an inexact science. =20 Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2024, at 18:15, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHe ran out of time. He was starting to formulate plans for his mus= eums, but > had only got around to dealing with the Pop Culture Museum before he died. >=20 > Mike >=20 >> On Sun, Jul 14, 2024, 9:05=E2=80=AFPM brad via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> I wonder why Paul didn't set it up to try and find a group willing to keep >> LCM or the whole collection under a new museum first. Then have a provision >> that it must be a non profit, and if it doesn't work, proceed to auction >> for charity. BradSent from my Galaxy >> -------- Original message --------From: Wayne S via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 2024-07-14 5:59=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) = To: Wayne >> S Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and >> Off-Topic Posts" , Wayne S >> Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice The estate should just have >> given the collection or parts of it directly to the charities if the >> charities were equipped to dispose of it.Sent from my iPhone> On Jul 14, >> 2024, at 17:56, Wayne S wrote:> > =EF=BB=BFYes= , but you >> still have to do the paperwork. Declare the revenue you got for it and then >> the paperwork from the charity acknowledging they received it and it=E2=80= =99s >> value. PITA> > Sent from my iPhone> >> On Jul 14, 2024, at 17:12, Bill >> Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:>> >> =EF=BB=BF>> >>= >> On >> 7/14/2024 7:14 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:>>> Trying to compare a >> billionaire=E2=80=99s estate collection with people like us is futile. Mos= t of us >> collectors will die and our collection wont be of interest to the IRS >> because it won=E2=80=99t amount to much. Pauls collection, on the other ha= nd, will >> be of interest simply because he called out what to do with it when he dies >> (sell and proceeds to charity) and he=E2=80=99s a billionaire so they look= very >> closely at estate where there could be significant tax revenue.>> >> There >> is probably no tax revenue if it all really goes to charity.>> >> bill>> --===============7835528475425323684==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jul 15 17:12:45 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 10:12:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181AA4C61832A126C033CE4E4A12=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0818876166411113100==" --===============0818876166411113100== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The only thing criminal here is Paul Allen's handling of LCM. On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:07=E2=80=AFAM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Yep. Civil legal stuff takes a lot of time to get done, especially if you > need court time. Civil proceedings take a back seat to criminal proceedings > so scheduling is an inexact science. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 14, 2024, at 18:15, Michael Kerpan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFHe ran out of time. He was starting to formulate plans for his m= useums, > but > > had only got around to dealing with the Pop Culture Museum before he > died. > > > > Mike > > > >> On Sun, Jul 14, 2024, 9:05=E2=80=AFPM brad via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> I wonder why Paul didn't set it up to try and find a group willing to > keep > >> LCM or the whole collection under a new museum first. Then have a > provision > >> that it must be a non profit, and if it doesn't work, proceed to auction > >> for charity. BradSent from my Galaxy > >> -------- Original message --------From: Wayne S via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 2024-07-14 5:59=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00= ) To: > Wayne > >> S Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and > >> Off-Topic Posts" , Wayne S < > Wayne.Sudol(a)hotmail.com> > >> Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice The estate should just have > >> given the collection or parts of it directly to the charities if the > >> charities were equipped to dispose of it.Sent from my iPhone> On Jul 14, > >> 2024, at 17:56, Wayne S wrote:> > =EF=BB=BFY= es, but > you > >> still have to do the paperwork. Declare the revenue you got for it and > then > >> the paperwork from the charity acknowledging they received it and it=E2= =80=99s > >> value. PITA> > Sent from my iPhone> >> On Jul 14, 2024, at 17:12, Bill > >> Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:>> >> =EF=BB=BF>> = >>>> On > >> 7/14/2024 7:14 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:>>> Trying to compare a > >> billionaire=E2=80=99s estate collection with people like us is futile. M= ost of > us > >> collectors will die and our collection wont be of interest to the IRS > >> because it won=E2=80=99t amount to much. Pauls collection, on the other = hand, > will > >> be of interest simply because he called out what to do with it when he > dies > >> (sell and proceeds to charity) and he=E2=80=99s a billionaire so they lo= ok very > >> closely at estate where there could be significant tax revenue.>> >> > There > >> is probably no tax revenue if it all really goes to charity.>> >> bill>> > --===============0818876166411113100==-- From doc@vaxen.net Mon Jul 15 17:19:26 2024 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 12:19:18 -0500 Message-ID: <33e671e3-0783-4a8c-92b2-9cc7ffbac54a@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3875381859407460672==" --===============3875381859407460672== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/15/24 12:12, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > The only thing criminal here is Paul Allen's handling of LCM. > With all due respect, man, your noise:signal ratio is getting really awful. Do you ever look at what you've typed and ask yourself if it's *useful*? The last I looked this mailing list was meant to be an exchange of information and a source of support, not a Reddit clone. Doc --===============3875381859407460672==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Mon Jul 15 17:22:45 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 17:22:04 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <33e671e3-0783-4a8c-92b2-9cc7ffbac54a@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3336311360607535015==" --===============3336311360607535015== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seconded. Thanks, Jonathan On Monday, July 15th, 2024 at 13:19, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 7/15/24 12:12, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > The only thing criminal here is Paul Allen's handling of LCM. >=20 >=20 > With all due respect, man, your noise:signal ratio is getting really > awful. Do you ever look at what you've typed and ask yourself if it's > useful? >=20 > The last I looked this mailing list was meant to be an exchange of > information and a source of support, not a Reddit clone. >=20 >=20 > Doc --===============3336311360607535015==-- From joe@barrera.org Mon Jul 15 18:00:58 2024 From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 11:00:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <33e671e3-0783-4a8c-92b2-9cc7ffbac54a@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2694079192054184989==" --===============2694079192054184989== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This whole thread is full of judgements and opinions and condemnations. Sellam makes one flippant comment, in line with the prevailing opinion, not attacking anyone on this list, and he is singled out for being uncivil? I don't understand. No reply needed. Just stating my confusion. > On 7/15/24 12:12, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > The only thing criminal here is Paul Allen's handling of LCM. > > > > With all due respect, man, your noise:signal ratio is getting really > awful. Do you ever look at what you've typed and ask yourself if it's > *useful*? > > The last I looked this mailing list was meant to be an exchange of > information and a source of support, not a Reddit clone. > > > Doc > --===============2694079192054184989==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Mon Jul 15 18:47:28 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 14:47:12 -0400 Message-ID: <3a031f13-676f-42de-afcb-588709a87bfc@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5066624408866537272==" --===============5066624408866537272== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Who'll then convert it or embed in pieces into a furniture set to impress > guests, because why not. Sigh. To be honest, Elon was the other person who was really interested in AI, and now that I think about it he may have been a better custodian. I mean sure: He would have just stuck it on the top of a Falcon rocket and blasted it into space, but then we all would know exactly where it was, and the steps needed to retrieve it if necessary. Hm. CZ --===============5066624408866537272==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jul 15 18:51:23 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 11:50:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8974624763643077705==" --===============8974624763643077705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 11:01 AM Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > This whole thread is full of judgements and opinions and condemnations. > Sellam makes one flippant comment, in line with the prevailing opinion, not > attacking anyone on this list, and he is singled out for being uncivil? I > don't understand. No reply needed. Just stating my confusion. > It's a strange phenomenon. I don't get it myself. Especially since my comment is perhaps literally true. Sellam --===============8974624763643077705==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jul 15 18:54:46 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Neurodata Catwriter Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 11:54:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5227693149554371166==" --===============5227693149554371166== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 11:08 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > This seems to be a Belgian computer that draws a total blank on Google. > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerclub/posts/8562290167137607/ > > Anyone ever heard of it? > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Perhaps the posting has been deleted? Facebook is saying the "content is not available". Sellam --===============5227693149554371166==-- From doc@vaxen.net Mon Jul 15 18:57:14 2024 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 13:57:09 -0500 Message-ID: <93ad6ed7-b8f2-4807-81a6-98e605d7b9e6@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1905412812301701245==" --===============1905412812301701245== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sellam, Stay the FUCK off my private email. That crosses the line and you know it. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [cctalk] Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 11:46:54 -0700 From: Sellam Abraham To: Doc Shipley On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:19 AM Doc Shipley via cctalk > wrote: On 7/15/24 12:12, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > The only thing criminal here is Paul Allen's handling of LCM. > With all due respect, man, your noise:signal ratio is getting really awful.  Do you ever look at what you've typed and ask yourself if it's *useful*? The last I looked this mailing list was meant to be an exchange of information  and a source of support, not a Reddit clone. Useful or not, it needs to be stated. I stand by the comment. Thanks for your feedback. Sellam --===============1905412812301701245==-- From drb@msu.edu Mon Jul 15 19:08:37 2024 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 15:08:33 -0400 Message-ID: <20240715190833.8829850B444@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <93ad6ed7-b8f2-4807-81a6-98e605d7b9e6@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7402755601835898459==" --===============7402755601835898459== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, Once again, it seems I need to ask everyone to drop this discussion. I _still_ don't want to have the moderation flags and banhammers. De --===============7402755601835898459==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jul 15 19:17:59 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 12:17:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <93ad6ed7-b8f2-4807-81a6-98e605d7b9e6@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4118936076812227292==" --===============4118936076812227292== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 11:57 AM Doc Shipley via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sellam, > > Stay the FUCK off my private email. That crosses the line and you > know it. > lol I tried to keep this off-list but you dragged it back out into the open, like an absolute twat. Keep my name out of your stupid messages and I won't have to reply to you at all. Sellam --===============4118936076812227292==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Mon Jul 15 19:52:47 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Neurodata Catwriter Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 21:52:40 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3711626958640079889==" --===============3711626958640079889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 05:51:50PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This seems to be a Belgian computer that draws a total blank on Google. > https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerclub/posts/8562290167137607/ > Anyone ever heard of it? Unfortunately, that link is also a total blank because it's locked behind a private FaceBook group. No, I'm not prepared to sign up to see it. I had a quick trawl of a couple of my local hoarders^W museums' websites but neither seem to have heard of Neurodata. Of the two, Bonami in Zwolle feels more likely to have one as they are very much on the hoarder end of the spectrum with their pile-it-high approach, whereas HCM in Helmond is rather more curated and organised, so if they have one they'd be able to give its location as a shelf number rather than a postcode. (The Zaandam computer museum doesn't have one either. I checked my desk twice to make sure, and also looked in the back of the wardrobe.) I suspect this Catwriter may be a local vendor's rebadged version of a better-known machine since that's the sort of thing that happens in smaller countries. Unfortunately, I don't even know what it looks like or the broad specs to make the identification easier, because any such information is hidden in that walled garden. --===============3711626958640079889==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Mon Jul 15 21:01:53 2024 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Neurodata Catwriter Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 21:56:14 +0100 Message-ID: <3bd82206-cebe-4dc7-a5ed-4269695ca57c@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6505743901298840477==" --===============6505743901298840477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://imgur.com/a/GjiB44R For all of those not in the group, images above. On 15/07/2024 17:51, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This seems to be a Belgian computer that draws a total blank on Google. > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerclub/posts/8562290167137607/ > > Anyone ever heard of it? > --===============6505743901298840477==-- From marvin@west.net Mon Jul 15 21:54:37 2024 From: Marvin Johnston To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ebay past pricing Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 14:54:32 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8968221226419003618==" --===============8968221226419003618== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message: 21 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 06:55:09 -0700 From: Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ebay past pricing To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" I think we are talking apples and oranges. I use Worthpoint to find pricing f= or uncommon (I hate the misuse of the word "rare) items that don't show up in= Ebay searches. So far, the only limitation I've found with Wortphoint is the= ir lack of shipping costs which anyone who sells on Ebay knows is part of the= Ebay price. That is not a serious enough reason for me not to use Worthpoint. A recent example of Ebay failures would be the pricing on Intel MDS system pa= rts. Another example is Lobo Drives/System computers. Or the Lobo HD/floppy d= isk box. Do I need to go on? Marvin > On Sun, Jul 14, 2024, 11:49=E2=80=AFPM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > My opinion, it is the best I've seen for looking up past ebay sales. > > Marvin I subscribed to Worthpoint for a couple months and found it kind of worthless (see what I did there). Yes, it let's you go back further than eBay's Terapeak search (which is available free to all eBay sellers and goes back through two years worth of listings) but I found the data to be unreliable, incomplete, and it does not store enough details from the original listing for my purposes. I don't believe it differentiates between listings and actual sold items. In one instance I found one of my own listings, and I forgot what was wrong about it, but it had entirely wrong information. I don't believe it's at all worth $30/month. I'd maybe pay that for a years worth of access. Maybe. Sellam --===============8968221226419003618==-- From korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 15 23:07:54 2024 From: Eric Korpela To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 16:07:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21814C2CE81C023AF47D8375E4A02=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3493784568810108318==" --===============3493784568810108318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Jul 14, 2024 at 4:47 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Get an attorney. They will respond more quickly to an attorney. You’ll > have to provide proof of your claims, though. This is one reason that long term loans of historical artifacts are sometimes used with museums rather than gifts. But then it gets down to who you trust more. Your heirs or trustees, of the board/director or trustees of the museum. Either can smell a tidy profit from a long way off. --===============3493784568810108318==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Tue Jul 16 00:30:17 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Neurodata Catwriter Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 02:30:09 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3bd82206-cebe-4dc7-a5ed-4269695ca57c@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3290290395372913431==" --===============3290290395372913431== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 09:56:14PM +0100, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > https://imgur.com/a/GjiB44R > For all of those not in the group, images above. The back connectors are a couple of BNC connectors marked "VID [obscured]" and "VID1" so we can assume video, and a DB-25 with three wires connected to pins 2, 3, and 7, so clearly RS-232. There's also some sort of connector to the right of the board but it's cropped and I can't tell if it's exposed to the outside world or what might be plugged into it. It's 2x16 and looks like a boxed pin header. On the board inside, the right hand side is a Z80 with 32K of static RAM and probably an EPROM (a handwritten label obscures the part number), and the left hand side towards the BNC connectors is another 3x8K of static RAM and another EPROM and a lot of discrete TTL including counters. So the right is the computer, and the left is a bespoke video system which I reckon is character mapped due to the EPROM which would contain character bitmaps. The existence of a second crystal and a trimmer next to the video side suggests colour rather than monochrome video. (The two video outputs might mean it offers both.) Doing video the hard way like this seems bizarre since it's how one would do things in the 70s or very early 80s -- an MC6845 replaces all of that discrete logic and was definitely available by 1981 because it's in IBM's MDA card -- yet the date code on the parts indicate this machine was built some time in the early 1990s. (The 32K SRAM is an outlier at 1994, but perhaps it was replaced.) The "MADE IN GERMANY" label supports this theory: it's not "MADE IN WEST GERMANY" so the machine postdates October 1990. I am inclined to believe this is a low-cost serial terminal rather than a general-purpose computer. 8-bit computers were obsolete by 1990 in Western Europe, and even the former communist states wanted Amigas, Atari STs etc rather than Western e-waste. Nobody would try and launch a completely novel 8-bit computer in 1990. (Except MGT, of course, and I'd love to have a Sam Coup� to play with but the prices are utterly insane.) Were it not for the edge connector I'd be certain it's a terminal, but the pin header can expose enough of the CPU that one could bodge on a floppy controller or whatever is needed to make the thing useful as a computer. However, 8-bit computers which had floppy drives as an optional extra would had a tape interface instead, which this thing doesn't have, so I still don't think it's a computer. ... but I'm still mystified as to who in Germany would make a standalone serial terminal in 1990 which still needs you to add some sort of external display. Maybe it's for a dialup service, but it's not like France wasn't handing out Minitel terminals like sweeties years earlier, and the UK similarly had Prestel which you could access via e.g. a terminal emulator on a BBC Micro or a bespoke terminal which was more polished than this device. Even with the knowledge that it is almost certainly a serial terminal, I can't find anything useful about it. I don't even understand why this anachronism would even exist. No wonder it has apparently disappeared without leaving a trace in the history books. How about giving it to a museum so they can tear their hair out trying to figure out where it came from? ;) --===============3290290395372913431==-- From rickb@bensene.com Tue Jul 16 00:38:33 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 00:38:24 +0000 Message-ID: <49422b6d3a36420f8b5e01d169b7777a@bensene.com> In-Reply-To: <20240715190833.8829850B444@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6967263002078887264==" --===============6967263002078887264== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dennis Boone wrote:=20 > Folks, > Once again, it seems I need to ask everyone to drop this discussion. I _st= ill_ don't > > want to have the moderation flags and banhammers. Seconded. =20 Though, I'll get in my last words about it before the thread hopefully dies o= ff. The situation with LCM+L is what it is. Unless someone has the wherewithal = to challenge the whole mess within the legal system (and probably lose anyway= ), there's nothing that anyone can do about it. I, as is clear many others= who inhabit this list, have a great deal of frustration built up about the = demise of LCM+L. With me, it's most specifically felt in the way that the wh= ole thing was executed. At some point, though, I just have to let it go, whi= ch is right now. I agree with Dennis that the time has come for this discus= sion to expire. LCM+L R.I.P. You will be missed. Thanks to all (which includes some membe= rs of this list) who contributed to the amazing place that LCM+L was. Mr. Al= len's heart was in the right place, or he wouldn't have devoted his resources= to creating it in the first place. Unfortunately, his life didn't last long= enough for him to assure that after he was gone it would have some means by = which it could continue on in his memory. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon USA --===============6967263002078887264==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Tue Jul 16 00:59:51 2024 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 17:59:33 -0700 Message-ID: <2B2D0120-2AA5-42A5-A2FE-E057BE08E62F@snowmoose.com> In-Reply-To: <49422b6d3a36420f8b5e01d169b7777a@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3442291426319391660==" --===============3442291426319391660== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Drop the civility discussion or the LCM+L discussion? The LCM+L discussion raises important questions about finding good homes for = one=E2=80=99s vintage computer collection after one passes on. I got more passionate about making sure this kind of stuff got saved when in = the late 90s I found that little of what I worked on at Burroughs in the late= 80s was available most anywhere. I didn=E2=80=99t donate the item that I don= ated to LCM+L just to see it get scrapped. I know of at least one other perso= n who donated rare items there on the condition they would be preserved. alan > On Jul 15, 2024, at 17:38, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Dennis Boone wrote: >=20 >> Folks, >=20 >> Once again, it seems I need to ask everyone to drop this discussion. I _s= till_ don't > >> want to have the moderation flags and banhammers. >=20 > Seconded. =20 >=20 > Though, I'll get in my last words about it before the thread hopefully dies= off. >=20 > The situation with LCM+L is what it is. Unless someone has the wherewitha= l to challenge the whole mess within the legal system (and probably lose anyw= ay), there's nothing that anyone can do about it. I, as is clear many othe= rs who inhabit this list, have a great deal of frustration built up about th= e demise of LCM+L. With me, it's most specifically felt in the way that the = whole thing was executed. At some point, though, I just have to let it go, w= hich is right now. I agree with Dennis that the time has come for this disc= ussion to expire. >=20 > LCM+L R.I.P. You will be missed. Thanks to all (which includes some mem= bers of this list) who contributed to the amazing place that LCM+L was. Mr. = Allen's heart was in the right place, or he wouldn't have devoted his resourc= es to creating it in the first place. Unfortunately, his life didn't last lo= ng enough for him to assure that after he was gone it would have some means b= y which it could continue on in his memory. >=20 > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > https://oldcalculatormuseum.com > Beavercreek, Oregon USA >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============3442291426319391660==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 16 00:59:58 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 20:59:48 -0400 Message-ID: <836D75CE-7345-4026-9285-887B97C0CEB5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <49422b6d3a36420f8b5e01d169b7777a@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8986827834840147922==" --===============8986827834840147922== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 15, 2024, at 8:38 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Dennis Boone wrote:=20 >=20 >> Folks, >=20 >> Once again, it seems I need to ask everyone to drop this discussion. I _s= till_ don't > >> want to have the moderation flags and banhammers. >=20 > Seconded. =20 >=20 > Though, I'll get in my last words about it before the thread hopefully dies= off. >=20 > The situation with LCM+L is what it is. Unless someone has the wherewitha= l to challenge the whole mess within the legal system (and probably lose anyw= ay), there's nothing that anyone can do about it. I, as is clear many othe= rs who inhabit this list, have a great deal of frustration built up about th= e demise of LCM+L. With me, it's most specifically felt in the way that the = whole thing was executed. At some point, though, I just have to let it go, w= hich is right now. I agree with Dennis that the time has come for this disc= ussion to expire. A problem with the whole discussion is that there are two rather different qu= estions: the fate of Paul Allen's collection (things he owned, so that the es= tate now owns) vs. the fate of LCM (a non-profit organization which also owns= things, and those are not part of Paul Allen's estate). Some things we tend to think of as belonging to the museum in fact appear to = be Paul Allen's property, like a PDP-10. I don't know if the Purdue 6500 is = in that category; probably yes since Christie attempted to mention it. On th= e other hand, various things donated to LCM presumably are not being auctione= d since they are not property of the Paul Allen estate, though it's certainly= a good question what will happen to them given that the museum is permanentl= y closed. For the more interesting Paul Allen items, I wonder if there are people here = who would try to bid on them, either as individuals or as members of a team o= f rescuers. I'm seriously tempted to try that for the 6500, even though the = notion of winning and having to pay for transportation is a big scary. paul --===============8986827834840147922==-- From ats@offog.org Tue Jul 16 03:36:18 2024 From: Adam Sampson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Neurodata Catwriter Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 03:57:04 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7441165292532046694==" --===============7441165292532046694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Corlett via cctalk writes: > ... so I still don't think it's a computer. The keyboard, with a BLINK key and what look like vertical/horizontal centring keys, suggests that it's for generating video displays, and the International Electronics Directory '90 lists Neurodata Sprl., Avenue du Progrès 28, 4430 Alleur as being manufacturers of "analog radio control; data transmission terminal using radio link; character generator master and slave units; test pattern generator for CATV; channel identifier for CATV". Between that and the CATWRITER name, I think it's probably a character generator for CATV applications. -- Adam Sampson --===============7441165292532046694==-- From jrr@flippers.com Tue Jul 16 13:06:08 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NeXT computer system... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 06:05:59 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8510281837483082978==" --===============8510281837483082978== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm just starting to clean up a NeXT system that a friend has had in storage for decades... I assume the thing has a battery somewhere - I just hope it isn't Ni-Cad! This is the original cube, monitor, keyboard (& mouse?), printer, assorted cables, and a SCSI secondary hard drive box. So far the manuals haven't shown up, but that is all online AFAICT. My plan is to give them all a good cleaning, then open up and inspect capacitors, look for batteries and any other perishable items, and then do diode checks prior to considering powering up. The remembered background story was a nearby lightning strike may have taken out the (1200 baud?) external modem, so will be paying extra attention to the serial ports! Sniff test may still be useful even after 20ish years. Any suggestions on what else to watch for on this setup prior to first power? I also will be using the Dim-Bulb setup once it seems safe to turn on. Anyone seen a common problem in power supplies for these components for example? Planned destination is auction... Thanks! John :-#)# --===============8510281837483082978==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 16 13:28:19 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT computer system... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 09:28:11 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0732790552212839491==" --===============0732790552212839491== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 16, 2024, at 9:05 AM, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I'm just starting to clean up a NeXT system that a friend has had in storag= e for decades... >=20 > I assume the thing has a battery somewhere - I just hope it isn't Ni-Cad! At that age it might well be. So what? I think they are still available. O= r you can replace it by a non-rechargeable battery. That's what I did with t= he ToD clock battery in my Pro; a lithium coin cell with a series diode to pr= event "charging" is not an ideal solution but adequate, and it would be bette= r if I used a Schottky diode rather than a plain Si rectifier diode I happene= d to have lying around. paul --===============0732790552212839491==-- From jrr@flippers.com Tue Jul 16 14:21:27 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT computer system... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 07:21:17 -0700 Message-ID: <59e6bcbf-12dc-497e-b7ea-2b17e2c7a2aa@flippers.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1938670256809743913==" --===============1938670256809743913== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024/07/16 6:28 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: >> On Jul 16, 2024, at 9:05 AM, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'm just starting to clean up a NeXT system that a friend has had in stora= ge for decades... >> >> I assume the thing has a battery somewhere - I just hope it isn't Ni-Cad! > At that age it might well be. So what? I think they are still available. = Or you can replace it by a non-rechargeable battery. That's what I did with= the ToD clock battery in my Pro; a lithium coin cell with a series diode to = prevent "charging" is not an ideal solution but adequate, and it would be bet= ter if I used a Schottky diode rather than a plain Si rectifier diode I happe= ned to have lying around. > > paul Battery leakage was the issue - having dealt with a great many logic=20 boards damaged or destroyed by leaking Ni-Cad batteries. I've since seen a photo of the inside of the NeXT and it looks like they=20 used a plug in Lithium battery, so that risk is no longer of much=20 concern to me. John :-#)# --===============1938670256809743913==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jul 16 16:24:33 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT computer system... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 12:24:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <59e6bcbf-12dc-497e-b7ea-2b17e2c7a2aa@flippers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7913443751088353659==" --===============7913443751088353659== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit how hard is it to track down a replacement NeXT cube motherboard? Bill On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 11:38 AM John Robertson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2024/07/16 6:28 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jul 16, 2024, at 9:05 AM, John Robertson via cctalk< > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> I'm just starting to clean up a NeXT system that a friend has had in > storage for decades... > >> > >> I assume the thing has a battery somewhere - I just hope it isn't > Ni-Cad! > > At that age it might well be. So what? I think they are still > available. Or you can replace it by a non-rechargeable battery. That's > what I did with the ToD clock battery in my Pro; a lithium coin cell with a > series diode to prevent "charging" is not an ideal solution but adequate, > and it would be better if I used a Schottky diode rather than a plain Si > rectifier diode I happened to have lying around. > > > > paul > > Battery leakage was the issue - having dealt with a great many logic > boards damaged or destroyed by leaking Ni-Cad batteries. > > I've since seen a photo of the inside of the NeXT and it looks like they > used a plug in Lithium battery, so that risk is no longer of much > concern to me. > > John :-#)# > --===============7913443751088353659==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Jul 16 16:36:49 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Neurodata Catwriter Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 17:36:41 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8192248325149646221==" --===============8192248325149646221== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 15/07/2024 8:52 pm, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > Unfortunately, that link is also a total blank because it's locked behind a > private FaceBook group. Yes it is, and it's not my post, so I don't feel it's my right to grab the pix and upload them elsewhere. There's little info. It seems to be a computer built into a keyboard. It has a D25 female and a couple of coax connectors labelled VID1 and VID(illegible) on the back, and a kettle lead power input to an unshielded bare coil. Fun. On the underside of the keyboard it says MADE IN GERMANY. The board says CW 8515 N. It has a Z80 on it, and 2 hand-labelled (ROM?) chips saying CAT16. BF MSTR 11/4/89 and another saying SYNCAT.EPR The printed label on the underside reads: TYPE CATWRITER SERIAL MASPAL Nº 911003 RAITING 220 V 50 HZ 40 W MADE IN BELGIUM _ NEURODATA Yes, "raiting". -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven IoM: +44 7624 227612 ~ UK: +44 7939-087884 ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 --===============8192248325149646221==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Jul 16 16:37:36 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Neurodata Catwriter Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 17:37:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3bd82206-cebe-4dc7-a5ed-4269695ca57c@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6863988698144734324==" --===============6863988698144734324== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 15/07/2024 9:56 pm, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > https://imgur.com/a/GjiB44R > > For all of those not in the group, images above. BTW you missed the motherboard pic. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven IoM: +44 7624 227612 ~ UK: +44 7939-087884 ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 --===============6863988698144734324==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Jul 16 17:04:49 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT computer system... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 13:04:41 -0400 Message-ID: <1ca33850-2d76-45c7-b0ce-832d7c8b199b@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <59e6bcbf-12dc-497e-b7ea-2b17e2c7a2aa@flippers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7199670664866139391==" --===============7199670664866139391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It uses the 3 volt Lithium cell found in later Apple devices. Should not leak or explode, replace it and move on. Needed to start up the NeXT. C On 7/16/2024 10:21 AM, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: > On 2024/07/16 6:28 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Jul 16, 2024, at 9:05 AM, John Robertson via >>> cctalk  wrote: >>> >>> I'm just starting to clean up a NeXT system that a friend has had in >>> storage for decades... >>> >>> I assume the thing has a battery somewhere - I just hope it isn't >>> Ni-Cad! >> At that age it might well be.  So what?  I think they are still >> available.  Or you can replace it by a non-rechargeable battery. >> That's what I did with the ToD clock battery in my Pro; a lithium coin >> cell with a series diode to prevent "charging" is not an ideal >> solution but adequate, and it would be better if I used a Schottky >> diode rather than a plain Si rectifier diode I happened to have lying >> around. >> >>     paul > > Battery leakage was the issue - having dealt with a great many logic > boards damaged or destroyed by leaking Ni-Cad batteries. > > I've since seen a photo of the inside of the NeXT and it looks like they > used a plug in Lithium battery, so that risk is no longer of much > concern to me. > > John :-#)# --===============7199670664866139391==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Tue Jul 16 17:13:16 2024 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT computer system... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:13:10 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0390155081657817314==" --===============0390155081657817314== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I imagine it's quite difficult. Maybe not "functional Twiggy drive" difficult, but probably "unmolested 128k Macintosh" difficult. It of course depends on who you know, and who you ask. Undoubtedly there's a guy out there with a stack of them in a shed somewhere, but getting hold of him is a different matter entirely. Josh Rice On 16/07/2024 17:24, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > how hard is it to track down a replacement NeXT cube motherboard? > Bill > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 11:38 AM John Robertson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 2024/07/16 6:28 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: >>>> On Jul 16, 2024, at 9:05 AM, John Robertson via cctalk< >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> I'm just starting to clean up a NeXT system that a friend has had in >> storage for decades... >>>> I assume the thing has a battery somewhere - I just hope it isn't >> Ni-Cad! >>> At that age it might well be. So what? I think they are still >> available. Or you can replace it by a non-rechargeable battery. That's >> what I did with the ToD clock battery in my Pro; a lithium coin cell with a >> series diode to prevent "charging" is not an ideal solution but adequate, >> and it would be better if I used a Schottky diode rather than a plain Si >> rectifier diode I happened to have lying around. >>> paul >> Battery leakage was the issue - having dealt with a great many logic >> boards damaged or destroyed by leaking Ni-Cad batteries. >> >> I've since seen a photo of the inside of the NeXT and it looks like they >> used a plug in Lithium battery, so that risk is no longer of much >> concern to me. >> >> John :-#)# >> --===============0390155081657817314==-- From jrr@flippers.com Tue Jul 16 17:19:42 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT computer system... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 10:19:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2150418730273622271==" --===============2150418730273622271== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024/07/16 9:24 a.m., Bill Degnan wrote: > how hard is it to track down a replacement NeXT cube motherboard? > Bill Is that a trick question? I have no idea...this is the first NeXT I've seen in over thirty years! And I think this is the same machine I saw in Vancouver all those years in my friend's basement... John ;-#)# > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 11:38 AM John Robertson via cctalk > wrote: > > On 2024/07/16 6:28 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jul 16, 2024, at 9:05 AM, John Robertson via > cctalk wrote: > >> > >> I'm just starting to clean up a NeXT system that a friend has > had in storage for decades... > >> > >> I assume the thing has a battery somewhere - I just hope it > isn't Ni-Cad! > > At that age it might well be.  So what?  I think they are still > available.  Or you can replace it by a non-rechargeable battery.  > That's what I did with the ToD clock battery in my Pro; a lithium > coin cell with a series diode to prevent "charging" is not an > ideal solution but adequate, and it would be better if I used a > Schottky diode rather than a plain Si rectifier diode I happened > to have lying around. > > > >       paul > > Battery leakage was the issue - having dealt with a great many logic > boards damaged or destroyed by leaking Ni-Cad batteries. > > I've since seen a photo of the inside of the NeXT and it looks > like they > used a plug in Lithium battery, so that risk is no longer of much > concern to me. > > John :-#)# > --===============2150418730273622271==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Tue Jul 16 17:49:32 2024 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:49:26 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2B2D0120-2AA5-42A5-A2FE-E057BE08E62F@snowmoose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8916142959943629008==" --===============8916142959943629008== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the key to preservation is assuring next of kin that the items=20 in our possession have value, and are worth seeking out future=20 custodians. There's a lot of stuff in private collections that can bring=20 in great sums of money if only those in charge of selling the estate=20 appreciate what they have to deal with. Making sure spouses and children=20 know that at least some items in the collection are not just "old junk"=20 will help immeasurably in their preservation, as well as pointing them=20 in the direction of those knowledgeable enough to value it. Groups like=20 this, as well as local/national computer museums will, i'm sure, help a=20 lot with valuing pieces of equipment if and when the time comes to=20 auction them off. Of course, a great tool is a personal inventory. A book, or some such=20 document with rough values and other information could be very useful=20 for those unfortunate enough to have to rehome our collections once=20 we're passed. Contact details of those who can help in assessing and=20 distributing such stuff will also be quite useful. I, personally, am quite young compared to many here (no offense=20 intended!), being 32 years old. However i have reassured my spouse that=20 much of my "junk" (largely consisting of QBUS PDP-11's at this time) is=20 actually quite valuable and well worth getting a good price for. Other,=20 rarer items, i have assured her need to be rehomed to a museum. Of=20 course, i intend to hang onto these pieces for at least another 32=20 years, as a good portion is somewhat "retirement projects", as well as=20 "retirement funds", and i definitely intend to divest some of my=20 ever-growing collection when the time comes. But then again, we all have those pieces that are actually quite=20 valueless. It is definitely worth divesting those pieces if and when we=20 get round to it. If and when the time is available to divest these=20 pieces (i'm eyeing up the stack of 30+ Core i7 3770 boards in the corner=20 as i type this, definitely not retro at this time, but definitely need=20 to be divested) it is worth getting the money back when we can. It's a difficult one for those that love and cherish these machines, but=20 it always hurts to see them end up in the trash. Ultimately, as=20 custodians of this equipment, it is also our duty to assure their=20 preservation, and sometimes it is us who know best where to rehome them.=20 Don't hesitate to downsize and find younger folk that have the passion.=20 There isn't a lot of them, but they are out there. Cheers Josh rice On 16/07/2024 01:59, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Drop the civility discussion or the LCM+L discussion? > > The LCM+L discussion raises important questions about finding good homes fo= r one=E2=80=99s vintage computer collection after one passes on. > > I got more passionate about making sure this kind of stuff got saved when i= n the late 90s I found that little of what I worked on at Burroughs in the la= te 80s was available most anywhere. I didn=E2=80=99t donate the item that I d= onated to LCM+L just to see it get scrapped. I know of at least one other per= son who donated rare items there on the condition they would be preserved. > > alan > >> On Jul 15, 2024, at 17:38, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> Dennis Boone wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> Once again, it seems I need to ask everyone to drop this discussion. I _= still_ don't > >>> want to have the moderation flags and banhammers. >> Seconded. >> >> Though, I'll get in my last words about it before the thread hopefully die= s off. >> >> The situation with LCM+L is what it is. Unless someone has the wherewith= al to challenge the whole mess within the legal system (and probably lose any= way), there's nothing that anyone can do about it. I, as is clear many oth= ers who inhabit this list, have a great deal of frustration built up about t= he demise of LCM+L. With me, it's most specifically felt in the way that the= whole thing was executed. At some point, though, I just have to let it go, = which is right now. I agree with Dennis that the time has come for this dis= cussion to expire. >> >> LCM+L R.I.P. You will be missed. Thanks to all (which includes some me= mbers of this list) who contributed to the amazing place that LCM+L was. Mr.= Allen's heart was in the right place, or he wouldn't have devoted his resour= ces to creating it in the first place. Unfortunately, his life didn't last l= ong enough for him to assure that after he was gone it would have some means = by which it could continue on in his memory. >> >> Rick Bensene >> The Old Calculator Museum >> https://oldcalculatormuseum.com >> Beavercreek, Oregon USA >> >> >> --===============8916142959943629008==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jul 16 18:32:40 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT computer system... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 14:32:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6778529735728208174==" --===============6778529735728208174== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a cube project coming up eventually myself Bill On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 1:23 PM Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > I imagine it's quite difficult. Maybe not "functional Twiggy drive" > difficult, but probably "unmolested 128k Macintosh" difficult. > > It of course depends on who you know, and who you ask. Undoubtedly > there's a guy out there with a stack of them in a shed somewhere, but > getting hold of him is a different matter entirely. > > Josh Rice > > On 16/07/2024 17:24, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > how hard is it to track down a replacement NeXT cube motherboard? > > Bill > > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 11:38 AM John Robertson via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On 2024/07/16 6:28 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: > >>>> On Jul 16, 2024, at 9:05 AM, John Robertson via cctalk< > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>>> I'm just starting to clean up a NeXT system that a friend has had in > >> storage for decades... > >>>> I assume the thing has a battery somewhere - I just hope it isn't > >> Ni-Cad! > >>> At that age it might well be. So what? I think they are still > >> available. Or you can replace it by a non-rechargeable battery. That's > >> what I did with the ToD clock battery in my Pro; a lithium coin cell > with a > >> series diode to prevent "charging" is not an ideal solution but > adequate, > >> and it would be better if I used a Schottky diode rather than a plain Si > >> rectifier diode I happened to have lying around. > >>> paul > >> Battery leakage was the issue - having dealt with a great many logic > >> boards damaged or destroyed by leaking Ni-Cad batteries. > >> > >> I've since seen a photo of the inside of the NeXT and it looks like they > >> used a plug in Lithium battery, so that risk is no longer of much > >> concern to me. > >> > >> John :-#)# > >> > --===============6778529735728208174==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Tue Jul 16 18:58:49 2024 From: David Wade To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:58:40 +0100 Message-ID: <0223b9ef-e1cc-485e-87b1-b37bfc9637e6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8065583884624782415==" --===============8065583884624782415== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 16/07/2024 18:49, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > I think the key to preservation is assuring next of kin that the items > in our possession have value, and are worth seeking out future > custodians. There's a lot of stuff in private collections that can > bring in great sums of money if only those in charge of selling the > estate appreciate what they have to deal with. Making sure spouses and > children know that at least some items in the collection are not just > "old junk" will help immeasurably in their preservation, as well as > pointing them in the direction of those knowledgeable enough to value > it. Groups like this, as well as local/national computer museums will, > i'm sure, help a lot with valuing pieces of equipment if and when the > time comes to auction them off. > I think you are living in some alternate universe.  I remember when clearing out a significant (for the uk) collection which consisted of IBM 7090 tapes, cards and CE manuals, and a straight 8 PDP8, talking to the children of the widow, about their mums collection of china, some of it valuable which covered every inch of wall space within the house and which severely hampered our moving of the computers, radios and scopes and other electronic items through the house. What were their plans for that I asked? Toffee Hammers they replied, the intended to smash the lot in a sort of revenge for having to live with it. Money did not matter! They just wanted rid.... ... I am 100% certain my wife and kids feel the same, except perhaps for my ATARI ST on which we played "Buggy Boy", "XENON II" and Tynesoft "Winter Olympics" as a family. ... as for "national museums" all the ones I know of are totally over-whelmed with donations.   Space is expensive. They cherry pick the best because thats all they can afford to store. Certainly in the UK they exist because the offer STEM courses for which they get rewards, Since the UK left the EU their funding sources are further reduced as EU funding has gone, and not been replaced, as promised by the pro-brexit lobby. they won´t accept most of what we have, and any they do take must be donated without condition. ... so as I am now 70 years old my collection of junk is being dispersed as fast as I can to younger enthusiasts, who I hope are not out to make a fast buck  on a quick cheap buy and re-sell on e-bay. If you want to have any confidence it goes to a good home you need to do it yourself.... .. Which brings us back to Paul Allen who sadly did not have the time to do this for LCM+L. I hope he passed peacefully..... Dave G4UGM > Of course, a great tool is a personal inventory. A book, or some such > document with rough values and other information could be very useful > for those unfortunate enough to have to rehome our collections once > we're passed. Contact details of those who can help in assessing and > distributing such stuff will also be quite useful. > > I, personally, am quite young compared to many here (no offense > intended!), being 32 years old. However i have reassured my spouse > that much of my "junk" (largely consisting of QBUS PDP-11's at this > time) is actually quite valuable and well worth getting a good price > for. Other, rarer items, i have assured her need to be rehomed to a > museum. Of course, i intend to hang onto these pieces for at least > another 32 years, as a good portion is somewhat "retirement projects", > as well as "retirement funds", and i definitely intend to divest some > of my ever-growing collection when the time comes. > > But then again, we all have those pieces that are actually quite > valueless. It is definitely worth divesting those pieces if and when > we get round to it. If and when the time is available to divest these > pieces (i'm eyeing up the stack of 30+ Core i7 3770 boards in the > corner as i type this, definitely not retro at this time, but > definitely need to be divested) it is worth getting the money back > when we can. > > It's a difficult one for those that love and cherish these machines, > but it always hurts to see them end up in the trash. Ultimately, as > custodians of this equipment, it is also our duty to assure their > preservation, and sometimes it is us who know best where to rehome > them. Don't hesitate to downsize and find younger folk that have the > passion. There isn't a lot of them, but they are out there. > > Cheers > > Josh rice > > On 16/07/2024 01:59, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> Drop the civility discussion or the LCM+L discussion? >> >> The LCM+L discussion raises important questions about finding good >> homes for one’s vintage computer collection after one passes on. >> >> I got more passionate about making sure this kind of stuff got saved >> when in the late 90s I found that little of what I worked on at >> Burroughs in the late 80s was available most anywhere. I didn’t >> donate the item that I donated to LCM+L just to see it get scrapped. >> I know of at least one other person who donated rare items there on >> the condition they would be preserved. >> >> alan >> >>> On Jul 15, 2024, at 17:38, Rick Bensene via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Dennis Boone wrote: >>> >>>> Folks, >>>> Once again, it seems I need to ask everyone to drop this >>>> discussion.  I _still_ don't > >>>> want to have the moderation flags and banhammers. >>> Seconded. >>> >>> Though, I'll get in my last words about it before the thread >>> hopefully dies off. >>> >>> The situation with LCM+L is what it is.   Unless someone has the >>> wherewithal to challenge the whole mess within the legal system (and >>> probably lose anyway), there's nothing that anyone can do about >>> it.    I, as is clear many others who inhabit this list, have a >>> great deal of  frustration built up about the demise of LCM+L.  With >>> me, it's most specifically felt in the way that the whole thing was >>> executed.  At some point, though, I just have to let it go, which is >>> right now.   I agree with Dennis that the time has come for this >>> discussion to expire. >>> >>> LCM+L  R.I.P.   You will be missed.  Thanks to all (which includes >>> some members of this list) who contributed to the amazing place that >>> LCM+L was.  Mr. Allen's heart was in the right place, or he wouldn't >>> have devoted his resources to creating it in the first place.  >>> Unfortunately, his life didn't last long enough for him to assure >>> that after he was gone it would have some means by which it could >>> continue on in his memory. >>> >>> Rick Bensene >>> The Old Calculator Museum >>> https://oldcalculatormuseum.com >>> Beavercreek, Oregon   USA >>> >>> >>> --===============8065583884624782415==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 16 19:10:35 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 12:10:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2840987460821220578==" --===============2840987460821220578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jul 2024, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > I think the key to preservation is assuring next of kin that the items in o= ur=20 > possession have value, and are worth seeking out future custodians. Collectors always assert that their collection has value, and the next of=20 kin never believe a word of that. My own sister actually claims that her very old French Horns are valuable! Another relative tries to claim that "Blue willow" dishes have some value. Although, perhaps you could search out the highest prices ever bid on=20 eBay, and tape clippings of those to each item. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2840987460821220578==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jul 16 19:35:19 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:35:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4589145733277065774==" --===============4589145733277065774== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Didn't we already kill this horse a few weeks ago? We had a very long thread and branches about the subject and related topics. But, specific to Paul Allen, it obviously was not a priority of his to plan for the LCM after his passing, compared to other things that he did plan. We also talked about sticking it to the survivors. I think we concluded it's best to sell or give away the collection before you're too old to do so. Bill On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 3:18 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jul 2024, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > I think the key to preservation is assuring next of kin that the items > in our > > possession have value, and are worth seeking out future custodians. > > Collectors always assert that their collection has value, and the next of > kin never believe a word of that. > My own sister actually claims that her very old French Horns are valuable! > Another relative tries to claim that "Blue willow" dishes have some value. > > Although, perhaps you could search out the highest prices ever bid on > eBay, and tape clippings of those to each item. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============4589145733277065774==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Tue Jul 16 20:00:44 2024 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 14:59:14 -0500 Message-ID: <20240716200038.A600D91206@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3938529809510936076==" --===============3938529809510936076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 02:10 PM 7/16/2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >Collectors always assert that their collection has value, and the next of ki= n never believe a word of that. It's not just the claimed value, which could be correct at a given=20 moment in time. It's the cost involved in physically storing the stuff, the time and skill it would take to assess and describe it all for sale, and then conducting the sale and shipment. It's=20 a lot of work. At 02:35 PM 7/16/2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >We also talked about sticking it to the survivors. I think we concluded >it's best to sell or give away the collection before you're too old to do so. Far easier to acquire something - just one more! - than to dispose of one. - John --===============3938529809510936076==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 16 20:08:49 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 13:08:40 -0700 Message-ID: <8adeebc9ca49138ad590a96680ffa6b052134732.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <20240716200038.A600D91206@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7590284001737799376==" --===============7590284001737799376== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2024-07-16 at 14:59 -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > Far easier to acquire something - just one more! - than to dispose of > one. The two happiest days in a boat owners life: The day he buys it, and the day he sells it. Boat (n): A hole in the water that you throw money into. --===============7590284001737799376==-- From brianb1224@aol.com Tue Jul 16 20:40:37 2024 From: brianb1224 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:40:24 -0500 Message-ID: <81487781.690411.1721162431735@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <20240716200038.A600D91206@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7264773399494222609==" --===============7264773399494222609== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or do what the Ham Radio guys do and have a commercial auction house that spe= cializes in collectable computers. KF5CNC 73Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Gal= axy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: John Foust via cctalk Date: 7/16/24 3:00 PM (GMT-06:00) To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc= : John Foust Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was= Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice At 02:10 PM 7/16/2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk= wrote:>Collectors always assert that their collection has value, and the nex= t of kin never believe a word of that.It's not just the claimed value, which = could be correct at a given moment in time.=C2=A0 It's the cost involved in p= hysically storing thestuff, the time and skill it would take to assess and de= scribe itall for sale, and then conducting the sale and shipment.=C2=A0 It's = a lot of work.At 02:35 PM 7/16/2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:>We also ta= lked about sticking it to the survivors.=C2=A0 I think we concluded>it's best= to sell or give away the collection before you're too old to do so.Far easie= r to acquire something - just one more! - than to dispose of one.- John --===============7264773399494222609==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 16 20:46:58 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 13:46:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <81487781.690411.1721162431735@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3685795817651142686==" --===============3685795817651142686== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 16 Jul 2024, brianb1224 via cctalk wrote: > Or do what the Ham Radio guys do and have a commercial auction house > that specializes in collectable computers. Which commercial auction houses specialize in collectible computers? (The format of your post comes through much like that of the late Ed Sharpe) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3685795817651142686==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Tue Jul 16 21:46:39 2024 From: brad@techtimetraveller.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 14:46:33 -0700 Message-ID: <016c01dad7c9$a0948fe0$e1bdafa0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7651932094745380548==" --===============7651932094745380548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in vintage copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc. I'm talking mid-1970s, like People's Computer Company, etc. Someone has been selling them one at a time on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each! Was PCC fairly low circulation? I have no idea how rare these things are - if I should just dive in to have my memento or wait. Looking at auction history it seems to be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them. One newsletter I would love to find an original copy of is Micro-8.. but I think the circulation on that was just a hundred or so, so probably unlikely. It has some blurbs from Grant Runyan in there, who built my TVT and Mark-8. But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think generally this stuff *should& be considered valuable - given most/all is archived online. Brad --===============7651932094745380548==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jul 16 22:07:41 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:07:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <016c01dad7c9$a0948fe0$e1bdafa0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6608710776848424135==" --===============6608710776848424135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/16/24 14:46, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in vintage > copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc. I'm talking mid-1970s, like > People's Computer Company, etc. Someone has been selling them one at a time > on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each! Was PCC fairly low > circulation? I have no idea how rare these things are - if I should just > dive in to have my memento or wait. Looking at auction history it seems to > be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them. Zero. I've given mine away for shipping. --===============6608710776848424135==-- From legalize@xmission.com Tue Jul 16 22:32:20 2024 From: Richard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 16:01:44 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <016c01dad7c9$a0948fe0$e1bdafa0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2265799465432914118==" --===============2265799465432914118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article <016c01dad7c9$a0948fe0$e1bdafa0$@techtimetraveller.com> you write: >Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in vintage >copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc. If I come across 'em, I scan 'em. I don't have any personal nostalgia tied to them. >Someone has been selling them one at a time >on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each! All things vintage computer-y, especially early personal computer or microcomputer stuff, has become very much sought after. Who'da thunk that 286s would be sought after some day. -- Richard -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Terminals Wiki The Computer Graphics Museum Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --===============2265799465432914118==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Tue Jul 16 22:36:24 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:36:18 -0700 Message-ID: <6696f5e2.170a0220.9a6bc.66f0@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6822044128409799478==" --===============6822044128409799478== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I always figured hardware would be collectible but I wondered about printed m= aterials like magazines.=C2=A0 Although I did just see two copies of the Popu= lar Electronics issue that introduced the Altair go for $400 each..I also won= der who I'm competing with.. do museums go and bid on ebay for stuff?Sent fro= m my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Richard via cctalk Date: 2024-07-16 3:32=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk(a)classic= cmp.org Cc: Richard Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vinta= ge computing magazine/newsletters In article <016c01dad7c9$a0948fe0$e1bdafa0$= @techtimetraveller.com> you write:>Just a 'survey' sort of question - how muc= h value do you guys put in vintage>copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc.= If I come across 'em, I scan 'em.I don't have any personal nostalgia tied to = them.>Someone has been selling them one at a time>on ebay and they routinely = go for $125+ each!All things vintage computer-y, especially early personal co= mputer ormicrocomputer stuff, has become very much sought after.Who'da thunk = that 286s would be sought after some day.-- Richard--"The Direct3D Graphics P= ipeline" free book =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The Terminals Wiki =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The Computer Graphics Museum =C2=A0 Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --===============6822044128409799478==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jul 16 22:38:00 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:37:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <016c01dad7c9$a0948fe0$e1bdafa0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6853084307621542083==" --===============6853084307621542083== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Personally I find them invaluable for research. Bill On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 5:53 PM Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in > vintage > copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc. I'm talking mid-1970s, like > People's Computer Company, etc. Someone has been selling them one at a > time > on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each! Was PCC fairly low > circulation? I have no idea how rare these things are - if I should just > dive in to have my memento or wait. Looking at auction history it seems to > be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them. > > > > One newsletter I would love to find an original copy of is Micro-8.. but I > think the circulation on that was just a hundred or so, so probably > unlikely. It has some blurbs from Grant Runyan in there, who built my TVT > and Mark-8. > > > > But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think generally this stuff *should& > be > considered valuable - given most/all is archived online. > > > > Brad > > --===============6853084307621542083==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Jul 16 22:40:12 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 22:40:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8794888667178403786==" --===============8794888667178403786== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where did you see them sold? Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 16, 2024, at 15:38, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFPersonally I find them invaluable for research. >=20 > Bill >=20 >> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 5:53 PM Brad H via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >> Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in >> vintage >> copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc. I'm talking mid-1970s, like >> People's Computer Company, etc. Someone has been selling them one at a >> time >> on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each! Was PCC fairly low >> circulation? I have no idea how rare these things are - if I should just >> dive in to have my memento or wait. Looking at auction history it seems to >> be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> One newsletter I would love to find an original copy of is Micro-8.. but I >> think the circulation on that was just a hundred or so, so probably >> unlikely. It has some blurbs from Grant Runyan in there, who built my TVT >> and Mark-8. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think generally this stuff *should& >> be >> considered valuable - given most/all is archived online. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Brad >>=20 >>=20 --===============8794888667178403786==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Tue Jul 16 22:41:20 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:41:11 -0700 Message-ID: <6696f707.170a0220.9a6bc.671f@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218102EF9CC9D414986B0A1EE4A22=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1217649702854450128==" --===============1217649702854450128== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ebay.Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Wayne S via cctalk Date: 2024-07-16 3:40=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discuss= ion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Wayne S Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/= newsletters Where did you see them sold?Sent from my iPhone> On Jul 16, 2024,= at 15:38, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:> > =EF=BB= =BFPersonally I find them invaluable for research.> > Bill> >> On Tue, Jul 16= , 2024, 5:53 PM Brad H via cctalk >> wrote:>> >> Jus= t a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in>> vintage>>= copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc.=C2=A0 I'm talking mid-1970s, like= >> People's Computer Company, etc.=C2=A0 Someone has been selling them one at= a>> time>> on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each!=C2=A0 Was PCC fairl= y low>> circulation?=C2=A0 I have no idea how rare these things are - if I sh= ould just>> dive in to have my memento or wait.=C2=A0 Looking at auction hist= ory it seems to>> be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them.>>= >> >> >> One newsletter I would love to find an original copy of is Micro-8.= . but I>> think the circulation on that was just a hundred or so, so probably= >> unlikely.=C2=A0 It has some blurbs from Grant Runyan in there, who built m= y TVT>> and Mark-8.>> >> >> >> But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think ge= nerally this stuff *should&>> be>> considered valuable - given most/all is ar= chived online.>> >> >> >> Brad>> >>=20 --===============1217649702854450128==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Tue Jul 16 22:45:46 2024 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 16:45:28 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1765679699693765756==" --===============1765679699693765756== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So I'll renew my call for IRUG newsletters. I have a bunch of WARUG issues I need get online... it's a bit of a shame they were forced out of DECUS and had to restart as IRUG since that cut over happened while i was at college and the material around the change went to a dead address =F0=9F=98= =9E. The R in the above is short for DEC Rainbow, of course. Warner On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 4:38=E2=80=AFPM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Personally I find them invaluable for research. > > Bill > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 5:53 PM Brad H via cctalk > wrote: > > > Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in > > vintage > > copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc. I'm talking mid-1970s, like > > People's Computer Company, etc. Someone has been selling them one at a > > time > > on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each! Was PCC fairly low > > circulation? I have no idea how rare these things are - if I should just > > dive in to have my memento or wait. Looking at auction history it seems > to > > be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them. > > > > > > > > One newsletter I would love to find an original copy of is Micro-8.. but > I > > think the circulation on that was just a hundred or so, so probably > > unlikely. It has some blurbs from Grant Runyan in there, who built my > TVT > > and Mark-8. > > > > > > > > But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think generally this stuff *should& > > be > > considered valuable - given most/all is archived online. > > > > > > > > Brad > > > > > --===============1765679699693765756==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Tue Jul 16 22:49:16 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:49:11 -0700 Message-ID: <6696f8e7.170a0220.9a6bc.6772@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8589048035558056751==" --===============8589048035558056751== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes I find them useful also.=C2=A0 But they are almost all archived on archiv= e.org.. so I wondered how much value an actual paper copy would have.=C2=A0 I= thought Peoples Computer Company had a decent circulation (like in the tens = of thousands) and could be expected to turn up from time to time.=C2=A0 Have = to pay more attention.Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Bill Degnan via cctalk Date: 2024-07-16 3:38=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: "General Dis= cussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Bill Deg= nan Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing maga= zine/newsletters Personally I find them invaluable for research.BillOn Tue, J= ul 16, 2024, 5:53 PM Brad H via cctalk wrote:> Just = a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in> vintage> cop= ies of old newsletters, magazines, etc.=C2=A0 I'm talking mid-1970s, like> Pe= ople's Computer Company, etc.=C2=A0 Someone has been selling them one at a> t= ime> on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each!=C2=A0 Was PCC fairly low> = circulation?=C2=A0 I have no idea how rare these things are - if I should jus= t> dive in to have my memento or wait.=C2=A0 Looking at auction history it se= ems to> be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them.>>>> One new= sletter I would love to find an original copy of is Micro-8.. but I> think th= e circulation on that was just a hundred or so, so probably> unlikely.=C2=A0 = It has some blurbs from Grant Runyan in there, who built my TVT> and Mark-8.>= >>> But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think generally this stuff *should&= > be> considered valuable - given most/all is archived online.>>>> Brad>> --===============8589048035558056751==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue Jul 16 23:21:59 2024 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:21:52 -0500 Message-ID: <655c251b-6bec-4944-bafe-e5b112b78a68@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <6696f8e7.170a0220.9a6bc.6772@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2476426133333945510==" --===============2476426133333945510== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I actually enjoy reading physical issues, so I keep them when I come across them.  Most of my paper mag collection is mine from BITD, but I've gathered ones from other platforms and issues before I subscribed to a periodical (Compute!, for instance). If I need to research something, though, I use archive.org.  And, if I had issues that were not archived (or newslettters), I'd archive them first. I would *NOT* pay $125.00 for an issue. I doubt I'd pay that for a collection of issues.  But, if I saw a few for $1/issue or something, I'd buy them. Jim --===============2476426133333945510==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Jul 17 01:05:35 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 01:05:25 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <655c251b-6bec-4944-bafe-e5b112b78a68@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9187335625020663357==" --===============9187335625020663357== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://www.worldradiohistory.com/index.htm Has a lot of old electronics and computer mags in pdf form. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 16, 2024, at 16:22, Jim Brain via cctalk wro= te: =EF=BB=BFI actually enjoy reading physical issues, so I keep them when I come= across them. Most of my paper mag collection is mine from BITD, but I've ga= thered ones from other platforms and issues before I subscribed to a periodic= al (Compute!, for instance). If I need to research something, though, I use archive.org. And, if I had is= sues that were not archived (or newslettters), I'd archive them first. I would *NOT* pay $125.00 for an issue. I doubt I'd pay that for a collection= of issues. But, if I saw a few for $1/issue or something, I'd buy them. Jim --===============9187335625020663357==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 01:22:24 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 21:22:09 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7389884208758248114==" --===============7389884208758248114== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I, as a history-researcher, relied on computer magazines from the early era. I wrote my book using articles from these magazines. I don't subscribe, no pun intended, to the theory that their really worth anything. Hardware is another issue! Happy computing, Murray :) On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 6:45 PM Warner Losh via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > So I'll renew my call for IRUG newsletters. I have a bunch of WARUG issues > I need get online... it's a bit of a shame they were forced out of DECUS > and had to restart as IRUG since that cut over happened while i was at > college and the material around the change went to a dead address 😞. > > The R in the above is short for DEC Rainbow, of course. > > Warner > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 4:38 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Personally I find them invaluable for research. > > > > Bill > > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 5:53 PM Brad H via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in > > > vintage > > > copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc. I'm talking mid-1970s, like > > > People's Computer Company, etc. Someone has been selling them one at a > > > time > > > on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each! Was PCC fairly low > > > circulation? I have no idea how rare these things are - if I should > just > > > dive in to have my memento or wait. Looking at auction history it > seems > > to > > > be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them. > > > > > > > > > > > > One newsletter I would love to find an original copy of is Micro-8.. > but > > I > > > think the circulation on that was just a hundred or so, so probably > > > unlikely. It has some blurbs from Grant Runyan in there, who built my > > TVT > > > and Mark-8. > > > > > > > > > > > > But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think generally this stuff > *should& > > > be > > > considered valuable - given most/all is archived online. > > > > > > > > > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > > --===============7389884208758248114==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Wed Jul 17 01:22:54 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:22:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <016c01dad7c9$a0948fe0$e1bdafa0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3568785251464853856==" --===============3568785251464853856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think generally this stuff *should& be > considered valuable - given most/all is archived online. It's nice for browsing, and sometimes scanning if the online copy wasn't so good, but online is better for searching, of course. That said, I have a good portion of my magazines from when I used to subscribe to them, and acquired most of the rest (a large amount of COMPUTE!, every iss= ue of COMPUTE!'s Gazette with and without the exclamation point, every issue of CTW ENTER, some Ahoy!, some Creative Computing, some Micro, some Family Computing, ...). --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- LDA #TXT:JMP $AB1E:TXT .asc "just another c64 hacker":.byt 0d00 - --===============3568785251464853856==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jul 17 01:40:36 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:40:26 -0700 Message-ID: <166927ce-2de6-4ca5-88af-84929fa2eb54@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6022805496483574707==" --===============6022805496483574707== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/16/24 18:22, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I, as a history-researcher, relied on computer magazines from the early > era. I wrote my book using articles from these magazines. I don't > subscribe, no pun intended, to the theory that their really worth anything. > Hardware is another issue! Early? Like old copies of Datamation? (1957)? --Chuck --===============6022805496483574707==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jul 17 01:44:46 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:44:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6993907714811464991==" --===============6993907714811464991== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/16/24 18:22, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I, as a history-researcher, relied on computer magazines from the early > era. I wrote my book using articles from these magazines. I don't > subscribe, no pun intended, to the theory that their really worth anything. > Hardware is another issue! I suppose that the proceedings of the JCC (FJCC, EJCC, WJCC, SJCC) could also be considered as "magazines", which go back to 1951. --Chuck --===============6993907714811464991==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 02:40:18 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 22:39:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2363309339263182826==" --===============2363309339263182826== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Proceedings are not magazines, they're their own class of document. Bill On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 10:03 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/16/24 18:22, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > I, as a history-researcher, relied on computer magazines from the early > > era. I wrote my book using articles from these magazines. I don't > > subscribe, no pun intended, to the theory that their really worth > anything. > > Hardware is another issue! > > I suppose that the proceedings of the JCC (FJCC, EJCC, WJCC, SJCC) could > also be considered as "magazines", which go back to 1951. > > --Chuck > > > --===============2363309339263182826==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 02:43:11 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:42:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <016c01dad7c9$a0948fe0$e1bdafa0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2687367405100512890==" --===============2687367405100512890== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 4:03 PM Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in > vintage > copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc. I'm talking mid-1970s, like > People's Computer Company, etc. Someone has been selling them one at a > time > on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each! Was PCC fairly low > circulation? I have no idea how rare these things are - if I should just > dive in to have my memento or wait. Looking at auction history it seems to > be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them. > ... > But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think generally this stuff *should& > be > considered valuable - given most/all is archived online. > > Brad > I consider them valuable as they are I believe the first formal magazine aimed at regular folks as opposed to computer professionals. They aren't particularly common. In my years of collecting I managed to score a good run of issues, and still have them, but I didn't come across them a lot. $125 per issue seems really steep. But the fact people are buying them indicates perhaps two things, either or both: there is high demand for them, and early bitcoin investors have a lot of spending power right now. Sellam --===============2687367405100512890==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 02:45:52 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:45:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6696f5e2.170a0220.9a6bc.66f0@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0576986085792542463==" --===============0576986085792542463== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 3:43 PM brad via cctalk wrote: > I always figured hardware would be collectible but I wondered about > printed materials like magazines. Although I did just see two copies of > the Popular Electronics issue that introduced the Altair go for $400 > each..I also wonder who I'm competing with.. do museums go and bid on ebay > for stuff? > It's an iconic issue, and computer collecting has gone somewhat mainstream, and so I believe there's a broader base of collectors going after the more stereotypical items, like the Altair, the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics, Altair 8800, etc. Sellam --===============0576986085792542463==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 02:50:06 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:49:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1243967793607912366==" --===============1243967793607912366== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BTW, I wouldn't be depending on Internet Archive. Not that it's going away anytime soon, but it may some day not be there. Like LCM. Sellam --===============1243967793607912366==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jul 17 03:04:33 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:59:03 -0700 Message-ID: <4b752a50-a52b-4975-beaf-f77a7158fe78@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5277515255787210071==" --===============5277515255787210071== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/16/24 19:39, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Proceedings are not magazines, they're their own class of document. > Bill CACM? It's a monthly. Calls itself a "journal". IEEE "Computer"? Calls itself a "magazine". --Chuck --===============5277515255787210071==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Wed Jul 17 03:15:39 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 20:15:33 -0700 Message-ID: <66973756.050a0220.8bc57.9b57@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1477422318258403292==" --===============1477422318258403292== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah.=C2=A0 I notice even Wikipedia has been really begging lately.=C2=A0 I'm= amazed they've all lasted as long as they have.That would really suck if arc= hive went away.=C2=A0 So useful.Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk Date: 2024-07-16 7:50=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: "General = Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Sella= m Abraham Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage compu= ting magazine/newsletters BTW, I wouldn't be depending on Internet Archive.= =C2=A0 Not that it's going awayanytime soon, but it may some day not be there= .Like LCM.Sellam --===============1477422318258403292==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Jul 17 03:49:54 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters (and hardware) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 22:49:45 -0500 Message-ID: <1327926367.1193658.1721188186001@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7928204932500503127==" --===============7928204932500503127== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What else does this apply to? I believe I have a near complete set of the CL= OAD-80 cassette magazine for the TRS-80, and a few issues of at least one wan= na-be imitation. Were there floppy disk "magazines" for first gen IBM-PC? I have years of saved logs from connecting to ward and randy's CBBS as well a= s several TRS-80 BBSes. Printed and on 5.25" floppies. I was trying to reco= ver the floppies, but got distracted, and stopped working on that. (aside: I= should think 100% accurate OCR should be possible for dot matrix printouts, = but have never seen such a program) the IEEE had a (short lived?) professional journal on personal computers, I t= hink, and these would have been available on paper or microfiche as they were= printed. Hardware: so I should not be sending my 8086, 80286 and 80386 computers to b= e recycled? Other things I've never noticed on ebay might be super valuable rather than w= orthless? like a big board (Z-80 CP/M system) an early Canon inkjet printer where you could swap out the print head for a s= canner head? (I bought the scanner head after I had stopped using the printer= , and bought a real scanner before getting around to installing the replaceab= le one) I've never seen networking stuff being sold (as retro), only cisco 2500 and n= ewer for people going for certifications, am I just looking in the wrong plac= es? I have four AGS-1 routers (before variable submitting) though IIRC I fig= ured out 3 were plus and one not, and various software levels, I bought them = hoping to mix and match for a super system, but some boards did not get recog= nized in other systems). And a few IBM and other routers from that vintage. = such as 10 megabit fiber, FDDI, CDDI, token ring. aside: I've seen references to ONE megabit unshield twisted pair (I assume th= e old 4 prong phone cords), does ANY museum have that, working or not? --Carey --===============7928204932500503127==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 03:52:05 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 23:51:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4b752a50-a52b-4975-beaf-f77a7158fe78@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0659436794957529420==" --===============0659436794957529420== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Proceedings from a convention or event is what I am talking about Bill On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 11:04 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/16/24 19:39, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Proceedings are not magazines, they're their own class of document. > > Bill > > CACM? It's a monthly. Calls itself a "journal". > > IEEE "Computer"? Calls itself a "magazine". > > --Chuck > > > --===============0659436794957529420==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jul 17 04:41:11 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 21:40:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3a936991-4a73-4430-b11f-31a7f96625e1@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6649687797539439987==" --===============6649687797539439987== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/16/24 20:51, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Proceedings from a convention or event is what I am talking about > Bill I was mostly observing that the "JCC Proceedings" back in the day had the most "meat" as far as I was concerned. CACM goes back to 1958, so I guess that's "Early". IEEE Computer goes back to 1970. I miss the HP Journal (started publication in 1949(. --Chuck --===============6649687797539439987==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 04:51:40 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters (and hardware) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 21:50:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1327926367.1193658.1721188186001@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5625746551771480226==" --===============5625746551771480226== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 8:58 PM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > What else does this apply to? I believe I have a near complete set of the > CLOAD-80 cassette magazine for the TRS-80, and a few issues of at least one > wanna-be imitation. Were there floppy disk "magazines" for first gen > IBM-PC? > > I have years of saved logs from connecting to ward and randy's CBBS as > well as several TRS-80 BBSes. Printed and on 5.25" floppies. I was trying > to recover the floppies, but got distracted, and stopped working on that. > (aside: I should think 100% accurate OCR should be possible for dot matrix > printouts, but have never seen such a program) > > the IEEE had a (short lived?) professional journal on personal computers, > I think, and these would have been available on paper or microfiche as they > were printed. > > Hardware: so I should not be sending my 8086, 80286 and 80386 computers > to be recycled? > > Other things I've never noticed on ebay might be super valuable rather > than worthless? like a big board (Z-80 CP/M system) > > an early Canon inkjet printer where you could swap out the print head for > a scanner head? (I bought the scanner head after I had stopped using the > printer, and bought a real scanner before getting around to installing the > replaceable one) > > I've never seen networking stuff being sold (as retro), only cisco 2500 > and newer for people going for certifications, am I just looking in the > wrong places? I have four AGS-1 routers (before variable submitting) > though IIRC I figured out 3 were plus and one not, and various software > levels, I bought them hoping to mix and match for a super system, but some > boards did not get recognized in other systems). And a few IBM and other > routers from that vintage. such as 10 megabit fiber, FDDI, CDDI, token > ring. > > aside: I've seen references to ONE megabit unshield twisted pair (I assume > the old 4 prong phone cords), does ANY museum have that, working or not? > > --Carey > Everything you mention here has value to some one or some institution. However, depending on the item, the effort to reward ratio may not be worth it for you. Sellam --===============5625746551771480226==-- From cz@bunsen.crystel.com Wed Jul 17 05:08:57 2024 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT computer system... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 14:22:52 -0400 Message-ID: <7C1D49BA-74B8-4EE7-9033-2C6B8F03A0F1@bunsen.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5031779078195068582==" --===============5031779078195068582== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have one in my closet=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 16, 2024, at 1:19=E2=80=AFPM, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2024/07/16 9:24 a.m., Bill Degnan wrote: >> how hard is it to track down a replacement NeXT cube motherboard? >> Bill >=20 > Is that a trick question? >=20 > I have no idea...this is the first NeXT I've seen in over thirty years! And= I think this is the same machine I saw in Vancouver all those years in my fr= iend's basement... >=20 > John ;-#)# >=20 >>=20 >> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 11:38=E2=80=AFAM John Robertson via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> On 2024/07/16 6:28 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: >> >> On Jul 16, 2024, at 9:05 AM, John Robertson via >> cctalk wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm just starting to clean up a NeXT system that a friend has >> had in storage for decades... >> >> >> >> I assume the thing has a battery somewhere - I just hope it >> isn't Ni-Cad! >> > At that age it might well be. So what? I think they are still >> available. Or you can replace it by a non-rechargeable battery.=20 >> That's what I did with the ToD clock battery in my Pro; a lithium >> coin cell with a series diode to prevent "charging" is not an >> ideal solution but adequate, and it would be better if I used a >> Schottky diode rather than a plain Si rectifier diode I happened >> to have lying around. >> > >> > paul >>=20 >> Battery leakage was the issue - having dealt with a great many logic >> boards damaged or destroyed by leaking Ni-Cad batteries. >>=20 >> I've since seen a photo of the inside of the NeXT and it looks >> like they >> used a plug in Lithium battery, so that risk is no longer of much >> concern to me. >>=20 >> John :-#)# >>=20 >=20 --===============5031779078195068582==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Jul 17 05:11:05 2024 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 00:10:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4614947550063792184==" --===============4614947550063792184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/16/2024 9:49 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > BTW, I wouldn't be depending on Internet Archive. Not that it's going away > anytime soon, but it may some day not be there. > > Like LCM. > > Sellam I was overly precise.  FOr research, I use online archives of magazines.  Most folks I know put the scans on a platform-specific site or two and send a copy to archive.org, so I always check archive.org first, before researching which platform specific sites might have the periodical. And yes, the statement is true for all online sources.  I am sure many of us save off copies of many items that hold more than a passing interest. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============4614947550063792184==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Wed Jul 17 05:30:28 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 00:30:15 -0500 Message-ID: <659067409.260095.1721194215928@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <3a936991-4a73-4430-b11f-31a7f96625e1@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3810503275374534017==" --===============3810503275374534017== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I miss the HP Journal (started publication in 1949). "raise". I have held in my hands the BSTJ issue with "the" Shannon Paper. I hope Rice University still has its copy. Per wikipedia: "In 1948, the promised memorandum appeared as "A Mathematical Theory of Commu= nication", an article in two parts in the July and October issues of the Bell= System Technical Journal." And, no, I didn't understand one bit of it -- other than the significance. (Especially the part about "this is why I am going to have a job.") mcl --===============3810503275374534017==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Jul 17 06:34:03 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 3d printer recreation question Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 01:33:56 -0500 Message-ID: <1551245665.1194629.1721198036626@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <7C1D49BA-74B8-4EE7-9033-2C6B8F03A0F1@bunsen.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4390444431155350918==" --===============4390444431155350918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable is anybody 3-d printing things that are often lost, or additional ones needed= , like disk caddies for sun and silicon graphics systems? I presume somebody makes imitation scsi disks that are adapters to SSD or oth= er modern hardware. --===============4390444431155350918==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Wed Jul 17 13:33:38 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3d printer recreation question Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 15:33:27 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1551245665.1194629.1721198036626@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7031555246959132524==" --===============7031555246959132524== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 01:33:56AM -0500, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > is anybody 3-d printing things that are often lost, or additional ones > needed, like disk caddies for sun and silicon graphics systems? Yes, and they often publish them for others to use for free on e.g. their GitHub repository or Thingiverse. Here's a random one on Thingiverse for an Octane: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2512810 > I presume somebody makes imitation scsi disks that are adapters to SSD or > other modern hardware. There are things like SCSI2SD, BlueSCSI, CF2SCSI and so on. Some of these are also Open Source so you can send the gerbers off to JLCPCB and build it yourself if they're out of stock or sold from a country which thinks that $100 is a perfectly reasonable shipping charge for something which fits in an envelope[0]. However, the SCSI emulators tend to be bare boards and are not a drop-in replacement for 3.5" disks because the mounting holes don't line up with the caddies. But of course you can go back to Thingiverse and find designs for suitable adaptors. Let's suppose that you want to put a SCSI2SD in an Octane. You'd quickly discover that the SCSI2SD speaks 50-pin narrow SCSI over a boxed pin header whereas the Octane expects 80-pin SCA. It would generally be about this point that I'd realise this wasn't a simple job, go "bugger this" and look to see if there was an internal or external SCSI where the adaptor is more likely to fit. But if we were to persist, we'd also need to design a custom SCA adaptor board. There are off-the-shelf SCA adaptor boards, but the SCA port is the wrong gender as they are intended for plugging an SCA disk into a machine with "normal" SCSI rather than plugging a SCSI device into a SCA backplane. At least these are nice chunky through-hole parts amenable to hand-soldering, so back to JLCPCB for the board and AliExpress for a scavenged connector if you don't already have a dead hard disk to cannibalise for parts. And then you'd need to 3D-print another adaptor which mounts your SCA board in the right place to mate with the Octane's backplane. This is certainly a reasonable amount of work and there'll probably be some respins due to design mistakes or parts being out of tolerance. Me, I'd probably just cable-tie and/or hot-snot the SCSI2SD into an external enclosure and plug it into the HD68 on the back of the Octane, leaving the 3D printer unloved. SCSI enclosures aren't too hard to acquire: I even found one in a charity shop here in Zaandam[2]. (It made a refreshing change from the usual chipped mugs and bottom-of-the-pops CDs.) Some of those free 3D models can leave a lot to be desired. My flatmate asked for a door wedge so I hit up Thingiverse. I found a model which was amusingly-shaped as a cheese wedge, and since I had orange filament already loaded, gave it a spin. The common STL file format has unitless dimensions, but it is widely accepted in the 3D printer community to be millimetres. Unfortunately, Americans also do designs. I immediately saw the problem with the wedge and enlarged it somewhat, but also printed one at the original size for a laugh. It was about 2mm high. 2 inches is probably a bit big but not unreasonably so for a door wedge, which suggests what happened here. Even at a saner size it still didn't really grip the floor properly. I happened to spot an Atari ST in a pile of flytipped rubbish on my travels[1] and brought that back to refurbish, joking that it was also about the right wedge shape. Eventually I just picked up a proper door wedge in Lidl. Apparently one can just walk into a shop and buy a ready-made thing which just works instead of engaging upon a project to build something a bit temperamental, which possibly comes as a surprise to many of us. [0] When searching for stuff, I filter out USA-based vendors for this reason. Sorry if you're a vendor who ships at cost via USPS surface mail and knows how to fill in a customs form correctly, but you're an outlier. [1] My bike broke and I've not yet gotten round to repairing it, so I've been going around at a leisurely 7km/h. This has been a revelation as I get to see all sorts of things in the local area which I had not noticed before when tearing along the roads rather than taking shortcuts through side streets and back alleys. [2] It's basically a dormitory town of Amsterdam. There are some windmills to fleece tourists with, and it smells nice when Verkade is doing a run of chocolate biscuits, but is otherwise one of those places that people end up in "just until I get things sorted and find somewhere better" and still find themselves there many years later. --===============7031555246959132524==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Wed Jul 17 14:48:45 2024 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QED 993 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 10:48:38 -0400 Message-ID: <00a8d63d-3084-449d-8af4-c0250bb5d81e@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CrrTi5YpAY2i0DrA2Wgm8VRv=5F4kVdXl3j7g3kvzWM9ydnJbko?= =?utf-8?q?ZLgOKsPGrzPvPTOiL=5FjONcIgZCCkwqd2kQHsJZFM6Hlfvt6-vBwxJ-vE-K4=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8468177089188590396==" --===============8468177089188590396== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-07-15 08:04, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> I'm trying to do some organizing and came across a QED 993. Anyone have an >> interest in it? > > Is this that Xilinx not-quite-a-J11 board? Lots of Xilinx FPGAs :) http://bitsavers.org/pdf/quickwareEngineering/QED-993/QED-993-top.jpg --===============8468177089188590396==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 15:14:34 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QED 993 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 08:14:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00a8d63d-3084-449d-8af4-c0250bb5d81e@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5042871835570855174==" --===============5042871835570855174== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 7:58 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2024-07-15 08:04, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm trying to do some organizing and came across a QED 993. Anyone have > an > >> interest in it? > > > > Is this that Xilinx not-quite-a-J11 board? > > Lots of Xilinx FPGAs :) > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/quickwareEngineering/QED-993/QED-993-top.jpg The MC68360 provides the SLU ports, only 4 instead of the 8 of a real 11/93, and runs the console boot and configuration firmware. (I have some source code for the MC68360 firmware I got from an QED engineer). There are settings to change some aspects of the host software visible CPU type. I tried a few different settings but could never get RSTS/E to install. I probably have some notes saved away somewhere with details, although it might be quicker to set up the system again for experiments than it would be to find my notes. --===============5042871835570855174==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jul 17 15:26:37 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QED 993 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 11:26:30 -0400 Message-ID: <10931914-C2A2-4C72-89CC-B103FC5830E1@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6624434910739143366==" --===============6624434910739143366== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 17, 2024, at 11:14 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > There are settings to change some aspects of the host software visible CPU > type. I tried a few different settings but could never get RSTS/E to > install. I probably have some notes saved away somewhere with details, > although it might be quicker to set up the system again for experiments > than it would be to find my notes. That would definitely be interesting. RSTS is pretty good about issuing erro= r messages when it sees something it doesn't like. That assumes it doesn't s= imply crash in the OS due to an assumption that's violated by the QED. But e= ven then, a crash dump would give clues. Worst case it will require some code= reading to see what the code is expecting vs. what it actually gets. paul --===============6624434910739143366==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 16:08:08 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 12:07:50 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <016c01dad7c9$a0948fe0$e1bdafa0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1419236302612383047==" --===============1419236302612383047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I enjoy and have many of the older magazines. Some I have in plastic and some I can actually take out and read because they are not in good condition. When I get my house, I would like to display some of them like this. https://www.virginiasweetpea.com/window-wall-decor-vintage-magazine-covers/ I have found that normally people collect specific issues that have to do with the company/computer that they are collecting and they make a great addition to a display. I personally would like to get my hands on "Hobby Computer" Magazine as it's one of the few that I have no issues at all. On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 5:53=E2=80=AFPM Brad H via cctalk wrote: > > Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in vintage > copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc. I'm talking mid-1970s, like > People's Computer Company, etc. Someone has been selling them one at a time > on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each! Was PCC fairly low > circulation? I have no idea how rare these things are - if I should just > dive in to have my memento or wait. Looking at auction history it seems to > be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them. > > > > One newsletter I would love to find an original copy of is Micro-8.. but I > think the circulation on that was just a hundred or so, so probably > unlikely. It has some blurbs from Grant Runyan in there, who built my TVT > and Mark-8. > > > > But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think generally this stuff *should& be > considered valuable - given most/all is archived online. > > > > Brad > --===============1419236302612383047==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 16:12:38 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 12:12:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3828843261889369020==" --===============3828843261889369020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree. I have been doing research about a computer I have and everything I found about it have been from magazines and other publications. Magazines help document history. They are very important. On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 9:28 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > I, as a history-researcher, relied on computer magazines from the early > era. I wrote my book using articles from these magazines. I don't > subscribe, no pun intended, to the theory that their really worth anything. > Hardware is another issue! > > Happy computing, > > Murray :) > > > --===============3828843261889369020==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Wed Jul 17 16:43:13 2024 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3d printer recreation question Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 09:42:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1551245665.1194629.1721198036626@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2480866232655356368==" --===============2480866232655356368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What Sun 4c/4m things are folks looking for? With Shapeways shutting down, I = had incentive to figure out how to get decent prints out of my 3D printer and= finally did it over the weekend. I have pre-sun4u Sun and similar vintage systems with good parts to measure a= nd make models from. I don=E2=80=99t really know what I am doing but I have m= ade models for car parts and custom furniture fasteners that turned out well. alan > On Jul 16, 2024, at 23:34, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFis anybody 3-d printing things that are often lost, or additional = ones needed, like disk caddies for sun and silicon graphics systems? >=20 > I presume somebody makes imitation scsi disks that are adapters to SSD or o= ther modern hardware. --===============2480866232655356368==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Wed Jul 17 17:04:11 2024 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 10:03:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9057795889474460783==" --===============9057795889474460783== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 16, 2024, at 12:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, 16 Jul 2024, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >> I think the key to preservation is assuring next of kin that the items in = our possession have value, and are worth seeking out future custodians. >=20 > Collectors always assert that their collection has value, and the next of k= in never believe a word of that. > My own sister actually claims that her very old French Horns are valuable! > Another relative tries to claim that "Blue willow" dishes have some value. >=20 > Although, perhaps you could search out the highest prices ever bid on eBay,= and tape clippings of those to each item. I think most of this stuff is valuable. To the right person. The trick is fin= ding that person, My wife worked at the part of Sun that made many of the machines in my collec= tion when they were being made, so she is fine with my computer collection. alan --===============9057795889474460783==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Wed Jul 17 17:09:14 2024 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 10:08:52 -0700 Message-ID: <0A17DAA7-A670-43D8-8C3B-07997176D2B4@snowmoose.com> In-Reply-To: <20240716200038.A600D91206@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0599443404992377329==" --===============0599443404992377329== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Storage is one reason I have a Palm Pilot collection ;) I have a dozen differ= ent models from many vendors (including one used on Better Call Saul) as well= as accessories and all of it fits in a bankers box. I hear storage is a problem for CHM. alan > On Jul 16, 2024, at 13:00, John Foust via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAt 02:10 PM 7/16/2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Collectors always assert that their collection has value, and the next of = kin never believe a word of that. >=20 > It's not just the claimed value, which could be correct at a given > moment in time. It's the cost involved in physically storing the > stuff, the time and skill it would take to assess and describe it > all for sale, and then conducting the sale and shipment. It's > a lot of work. >=20 > At 02:35 PM 7/16/2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> We also talked about sticking it to the survivors. I think we concluded >> it's best to sell or give away the collection before you're too old to do = so. >=20 > Far easier to acquire something - just one more! - than to dispose of one. >=20 > - John >=20 --===============0599443404992377329==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 17:39:25 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 13:39:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6717648877330407736==" --===============6717648877330407736== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit R&R Auction. They have been doing mostly Apple and some other. https://www.rrauction.com On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 4:46 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Which commercial auction houses specialize in collectible computers? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6717648877330407736==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Wed Jul 17 17:45:49 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Auction houses vs ebay Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 10:45:43 -0700 Message-ID: <66980348.170a0220.817b.108b@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1280906311076425242==" --===============1280906311076425242== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Question going back to the estate planning subject...do auction houses tend t= o receive higher bids than ebay for vintage computer gear?=C2=A0 Are they any= better in terms of finding the right buyers?One day I might want to sell my = Mark-8 and TVT, not immediately though.=C2=A0 But more and more am thinking o= f getting out before I'm gotten out.BradSent from my Galaxy --===============1280906311076425242==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jul 17 17:53:57 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 10:53:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4749059141368582383==" --===============4749059141368582383== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 17 Jul 2024, Alan Perry wrote: > My wife worked at the part of Sun that made many of the machines in my > collection when they were being made, so she is fine with my computer > collection. Does she have a sister? --===============4749059141368582383==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 17:56:00 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 10:55:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <66980348.170a0220.817b.108b@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8359775862580590832==" --===============8359775862580590832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:45 AM brad via cctalk wrote: > Question going back to the estate planning subject...do auction houses > tend to receive higher bids than ebay for vintage computer gear? Are they > any better in terms of finding the right buyers?One day I might want to > sell my Mark-8 and TVT, not immediately though. But more and more am > thinking of getting out before I'm gotten out.BradSent from my Galaxy > In my experience, yes. If you watch RR Auctions, particularly when they auction off an Apple 1 or some other Steve Jobs related thing, they've begun to list various computers and computer related items, and of the stuff that sells, some of it fetches greater than eBay values. When I did consulting for Christie's back in the 2013 timeframe when they auctioned off the Apple-1 in conjunction with Andy Warhol stuff, Christie's asked if I had any Apple computers I would be interested in including in the auction, so I said sure, and offered up about half a dozen real prizes from my collection, including Apple ][ prototypes, and then also threw in a first revision Apple //e, as they aren't nearly as common as the later revision //e's, but whatever. I specified semi-ridiculous reserve prices for everything, including the //e, which at the time would go for maybe $200. It ended up selling for the ridiculous price of $1,000. Many years ago, there was an auction of the collection of a guy (I forget his name) who spent years collecting computer related books, proceedings, manuscripts, etc. Some of it was mundane but a lot of it was pretty rare and unique, and it all fetched a pretty tidy sum. Auction houses attract a different type of buyer, definitely not your typical computer collector. Sellam --===============8359775862580590832==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 17:56:47 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] CRDS PDP-11/23 For Sale Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 13:56:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3847324011024357080==" --===============3847324011024357080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi alll, I have a Charles River Data Systems MF211E, a branded PDP-11/23 that is looking for a new home. Right now it's running RT-11 but I've also run 2.9BSD on it. I got it with the intent to run Ultrix-11 but due to the non-standard disk controller I could never get that working. Everything was in fully functioning condition when it was powered down a couple of months ago. It has: M8186, a KDF-11A Clearpoint Q-RAM 22, a 1MB memory board FC-202, an RXV21 clone, connected to Shugart SA800s M7504, a DEQNA-M ethernet controller Dilog DQ614, emulating 4 RL02 drives, connected to a 52MB MFM drive in a separate enclosure H-11-5, a Heathkit serial card M9400-YE, a REV11-E terminator I believe it's an H9278 backplane but I'm not 100% certain about that I'm willing to entertain reasonable offers. It is currently located in NE Ohio, and due to age and the substantial weight I will not ship unless you want to pay to have full-service freight show up at my door. Please contact me off-list if you are interested. Thanks! -Henry --===============3847324011024357080==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 17:59:46 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 13:59:28 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7476434939555840674==" --===============7476434939555840674== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am sure you would not follow this person's lead and remove the covers from the magazines.... For Kennett Classic I scan the covers and have them printed with UV-durable ink. I then put into individual black frames. Over time original some covers may fade, their paper decompose or get light stained. Bill On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 12:08=E2=80=AFPM Christian Liendo via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I enjoy and have many of the older magazines. Some I have in plastic > and some I can actually take out and read because they are not in good > condition. > > When I get my house, I would like to display some of them like this. > > https://www.virginiasweetpea.com/window-wall-decor-vintage-magazine-covers/ > > I have found that normally people collect specific issues that have to > do with the company/computer that they are collecting and they make a > great addition to a display. > > I personally would like to get my hands on "Hobby Computer" Magazine > as it's one of the few that I have no issues at all. > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 5:53=E2=80=AFPM Brad H via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much value do you guys put in > vintage > > copies of old newsletters, magazines, etc. I'm talking mid-1970s, like > > People's Computer Company, etc. Someone has been selling them one at a > time > > on ebay and they routinely go for $125+ each! Was PCC fairly low > > circulation? I have no idea how rare these things are - if I should just > > dive in to have my memento or wait. Looking at auction history it seems > to > > be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders going nuts over them. > > > > > > > > One newsletter I would love to find an original copy of is Micro-8.. but > I > > think the circulation on that was just a hundred or so, so probably > > unlikely. It has some blurbs from Grant Runyan in there, who built my > TVT > > and Mark-8. > > > > > > > > But yeah, I just wondered if you guys think generally this stuff > *should& be > > considered valuable - given most/all is archived online. > > > > > > > > Brad > > > --===============7476434939555840674==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 18:01:47 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 14:01:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <66980348.170a0220.817b.108b@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7088758228210920749==" --===============7088758228210920749== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't think you can beat direct sales. Ebay will probably bring a higher price but you have to ship take pics, etc. If you go the auction house route you will get less money, but it will be less effort on your pat. b On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 1:45 PM brad via cctalk wrote: > Question going back to the estate planning subject...do auction houses > tend to receive higher bids than ebay for vintage computer gear? Are they > any better in terms of finding the right buyers?One day I might want to > sell my Mark-8 and TVT, not immediately though. But more and more am > thinking of getting out before I'm gotten out.BradSent from my Galaxy > --===============7088758228210920749==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 18:07:08 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 11:06:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1834677691808528431==" --===============1834677691808528431== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:59 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am sure you would not follow this person's lead and remove the covers > from the magazines.... For Kennett Classic I scan the covers and have them > printed with UV-durable ink. I then put into individual black frames. > Over time original some covers may fade, their paper decompose or get light > stained. > Bill > Thanks for a great tip based on practical experience. Sellam --===============1834677691808528431==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 18:10:11 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 14:09:51 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <66980348.170a0220.817b.108b@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3276297656555054603==" --===============3276297656555054603== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know. This is new and I have only seen a few auctions and they have been from some high profile people. Here was the RR Auction from March 21, 2024 https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/details/690-steve-jobs-and-the-apple-compu= ter-revolution/ Here was the RR Auction from August 24, 2023 https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/details/673 Here was the RR Auction from August, 2022 https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/details/644-apple-jobs-and-computer-hardwa= re On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 1:45=E2=80=AFPM brad w= rote: > > Question going back to the estate planning subject...do auction houses tend= to receive higher bids than ebay for vintage computer gear? Are they any be= tter in terms of finding the right buyers? > > One day I might want to sell my Mark-8 and TVT, not immediately though. Bu= t more and more am thinking of getting out before I'm gotten out. > > Brad > > > > Sent from my Galaxy > > --===============3276297656555054603==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 18:15:49 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 14:15:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8940636038021371067==" --===============8940636038021371067== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I really do like the repurposed window frame with 8 panes through, and the magazine covers in the article are really nice. On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 2:07 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:59 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I am sure you would not follow this person's lead and remove the covers > > from the magazines.... For Kennett Classic I scan the covers and have > them > > printed with UV-durable ink. I then put into individual black frames. > > Over time original some covers may fade, their paper decompose or get > light > > stained. > > Bill > > > > Thanks for a great tip based on practical experience. > > Sellam > --===============8940636038021371067==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 18:18:21 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 14:18:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2100758736106249749==" --===============2100758736106249749== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit that's a good point a premier auction house will get more than Ebay. A "local" auction house with less panache may not. But Someplace like Christie's is only going to accept the A list items. Bill On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 2:03 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:45 AM brad via cctalk > wrote: > > > Question going back to the estate planning subject...do auction houses > > tend to receive higher bids than ebay for vintage computer gear? Are > they > > any better in terms of finding the right buyers?One day I might want to > > sell my Mark-8 and TVT, not immediately though. But more and more am > > thinking of getting out before I'm gotten out.BradSent from my Galaxy > > > > In my experience, yes. > > If you watch RR Auctions, particularly when they auction off an Apple 1 or > some other Steve Jobs related thing, they've begun to list various > computers and computer related items, and of the stuff that sells, some of > it fetches greater than eBay values. > > When I did consulting for Christie's back in the 2013 timeframe when they > auctioned off the Apple-1 in conjunction with Andy Warhol stuff, Christie's > asked if I had any Apple computers I would be interested in including in > the auction, so I said sure, and offered up about half a dozen real prizes > from my collection, including Apple ][ prototypes, and then also threw in a > first revision Apple //e, as they aren't nearly as common as the later > revision //e's, but whatever. I specified semi-ridiculous reserve prices > for everything, including the //e, which at the time would go for maybe > $200. It ended up selling for the ridiculous price of $1,000. > > Many years ago, there was an auction of the collection of a guy (I forget > his name) who spent years collecting computer related books, proceedings, > manuscripts, etc. Some of it was mundane but a lot of it was pretty rare > and unique, and it all fetched a pretty tidy sum. > > Auction houses attract a different type of buyer, definitely not your > typical computer collector. > > Sellam > --===============2100758736106249749==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jul 17 18:26:56 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 11:26:45 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3249874127822272344==" --===============3249874127822272344== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having just updated my Advance Directives document before going under the knife and saw, I thought a bit about the subject of estate planning. My Lovely Wife, were she to become a Lovely Widow has enough trouble dealing with day-to-day tasks. There's no way that she would want to deal with the minutiae of getting rid of the old junk I have. Since I'll be long past the "caring" stage, I've informed her that it's perfectly acceptable to my memory to have a cleaning service come in and dispose of the stuff by carting it off to a recycler. It will simplify her life dramatically. Sorry, but that's what will work for her. She will not deal well with strangers coming into her house, ransacking the place for a bunch of old computer gear and musical instruments. --Chuck --===============3249874127822272344==-- From rob.kolstad@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 18:31:05 2024 From: Rob Kolstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Scientific Subroutine Package Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 12:30:43 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0948370263320482421==" --===============0948370263320482421== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have access to compile-able files for IBM's Scientific Subroutine Package? 360/370, 1130 -- anything will do. I have a copy of 360A_CM-03X_SSP.tap and have even converted it away from EBCDIC. I have not, however, properly de-blocked it yet and figgered I'd ask if someone already has ready-to-go files. FORTRAN would of course be the origin; any language will do, however. RK --===============0948370263320482421==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 19:15:35 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 20:15:16 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8079058362801853427==" --===============8079058362801853427== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The number of UK museums seem to be growing. Perhaps some of the newer ones are not yet full. I think the large Science Museums are pretty well off but the smaller ones may be more flexible. Of course, they are also in greater danger of fading away. I'm sure you're aware of TNMoC at Bletchley Park (though not the same organisation as the Bletchley Park Trust) . I'm hoping to get involved there myself soon. They seem to be mainly limited by the rate at which they can restore the many old buildings on the site. There are still a lot left semi-derelict. Although both organisations have improved their standing a lot recently, I'm still astonished when I compare it with the museum Curious Marc and his team recently visited. Two other notable but more recently established museums are Cambridge's 'Centre for computing History' which has a variety of HP and DEC systems in addition to many homegrown Cambridge machines, and Sam Battle's 'This museum is not obsolete', a volunteer-run museum with a very dedicated staff and an astounding ability to take on work and exhibits. I'd recommend both for a visit and perhaps a donation. On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 6:53=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jul 2024, Alan Perry wrote: > > My wife worked at the part of Sun that made many of the machines in my > > collection when they were being made, so she is fine with my computer > > collection. > > Does she have a sister? > > > --===============8079058362801853427==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Jul 17 20:44:35 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3d printer recreation question Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 15:36:20 -0500 Message-ID: <2078888248.1215665.1721248580073@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8710952956102816276==" --===============8710952956102816276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable it was kind of a general question, but I have a sparcstation 5 or two that it= would be nice to put a second disk into. Also SGI indigo and Indy that I th= ink needed caddies...it's been so long. I bought them but never followed up,= not having had any experience in my working life. I had a stack of sparcstation 5s with no disk, hence needing caddies, but I = donated them to a local VCF. They were received with the hope of my running = a solaris install class at a local nonprofit when we didn't know that had no = disks. 
--Carey
> On 07/17/2024 11:42 AM CDT Alan Perry wrote: >=20 > =20 > What Sun 4c/4m things are folks looking for? With Shapeways shutting down, = I had incentive to figure out how to get decent prints out of my 3D printer a= nd finally did it over the weekend. >=20 > I have pre-sun4u Sun and similar vintage systems with good parts to measure= and make models from. I don=E2=80=99t really know what I am doing but I have= made models for car parts and custom furniture fasteners that turned out wel= l. >=20 > alan >=20 > > On Jul 16, 2024, at 23:34, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > > =EF=BB=BFis anybody 3-d printing things that are often lost, or additiona= l ones needed, like disk caddies for sun and silicon graphics systems? > >=20 > > I presume somebody makes imitation scsi disks that are adapters to SSD or= other modern hardware. --===============8710952956102816276==-- From stepleton@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 22:01:20 2024 From: Tom Stepleton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT computer system... Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 23:01:04 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <172123560747.2847341.1317432497127260063@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3874514695092270986==" --===============3874514695092270986== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 18:13=E2=80=AFPM Joshua Rice wrote: > I imagine it's quite difficult. Maybe not "functional Twiggy drive" > difficult, but probably "unmolested 128k Macintosh" difficult. > > It of course depends on who you know, and who you ask. Undoubtedly > there's a guy out there with a stack of them in a shed somewhere, but > getting hold of him is a different matter entirely. > I think this person exists and is relatively easy to contact: it's Rob Blessin of Black Hole Inc (https://next.blackholeinc.com/). If he doesn't have a 68030 board, ask around on the NeXT forums at https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/ (I think these are also related to Rob in some way). In my experience the SMT capacitors pose a much greater threat to NeXT PCBs than the battery: these are classic early 90s caps that must be assumed to be leaking already. Replace them. Same goes for several of the through-hole caps in the N4000-series mono displays (ELNA "Long Life" my foot --- you'll find they come out moist and fishy-smelling). (Plus there are SMT caps in the display's digital board too.) As for the bright yellow Panasonic BR-2/3A lithium primary cell battery: I issue a challenge to this community. I've never seen one leak. Nobody I've asked has ever seen one leak. Rob Blessin who has handled thousands of NeXT boards has never seen one leak. It's a bit maddening since batteries are supposed to leak eventually and the Panasonics just seem like they... don't. In fact, they often still hold a good voltage, and I'll confess here: *I'm still running some of the 30-year-old originals in my NeXTs!* The replacements I got from DigiKey a few years back are sitting in my component stores gathering dust, just waiting. The challenge: have *you* ever seen a leaky Panasonic BR-2/3A lithium primary cell battery? Surely their day will come someday --- we'll see them start to go. But for now it sure feels like we're in the long, low bottom of a very big bathtub-shaped curve. --Tom > Josh Rice > > On 16/07/2024 17:24, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > how hard is it to track down a replacement NeXT cube motherboard? > > Bill > > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 11:38=E2=80=AFAM John Robertson via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On 2024/07/16 6:28 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: > >>>> On Jul 16, 2024, at 9:05 AM, John Robertson via cctalk< > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>>> I'm just starting to clean up a NeXT system that a friend has had in > >> storage for decades... > >>>> I assume the thing has a battery somewhere - I just hope it isn't > >> Ni-Cad! > >>> At that age it might well be. So what? I think they are still > >> available. Or you can replace it by a non-rechargeable battery. That's > >> what I did with the ToD clock battery in my Pro; a lithium coin cell > with a > >> series diode to prevent "charging" is not an ideal solution but > adequate, > >> and it would be better if I used a Schottky diode rather than a plain Si > >> rectifier diode I happened to have lying around. > >>> paul > >> Battery leakage was the issue - having dealt with a great many logic > >> boards damaged or destroyed by leaking Ni-Cad batteries. > >> > >> I've since seen a photo of the inside of the NeXT and it looks like they > >> used a plug in Lithium battery, so that risk is no longer of much > >> concern to me. > >> > >> John :-#)# > >> > --===============3874514695092270986==-- From jrr@flippers.com Wed Jul 17 23:24:02 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 16:23:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2243909088955094180==" --===============2243909088955094180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024/07/17 11:26 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Having just updated my Advance Directives document before going under > the knife and saw, I thought a bit about the subject of estate planning. > > My Lovely Wife, were she to become a Lovely Widow has enough trouble > dealing with day-to-day tasks. There's no way that she would want to > deal with the minutiae of getting rid of the old junk I have. Since > I'll be long past the "caring" stage, I've informed her that it's > perfectly acceptable to my memory to have a cleaning service come in and > dispose of the stuff by carting it off to a recycler. > > It will simplify her life dramatically. > > Sorry, but that's what will work for her. She will not deal well with > strangers coming into her house, ransacking the place for a bunch of old > computer gear and musical instruments. > > --Chuck > Hi Chuck, Having had a quad bypass (I'm good!) a few years back I've thought about this a bit too. My intention is to have friends act as executioners of my stuff as they too are collectors. I do believe if they get money for the stuff it will help my wife out in the future after they cover expenses and their time...the idea is they would simply take everything my wife doesn't want away and deal with the disposal for her and then make some restitution to her. These are honourable folks...and my wife knows them. John :-#)# --===============2243909088955094180==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jul 17 23:55:01 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 19:54:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3313750426788195040==" --===============3313750426788195040== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > My Lovely Wife, were she to become a Lovely Widow has enough trouble > > dealing with day-to-day tasks. There's no way that she would want to > > deal with the minutiae of getting rid of the old junk I have. > > It will simplify her life dramatically. > > > > > > > > --Chuck > > > Hi Chuck, > > > > My intention is to have friends act as executioners of my stuff as they > too are collectors. > > > John :-#)# > I suppose the point is, have a plan that works.for you and you family. No plan is to be avoided Yes? B > --===============3313750426788195040==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Jul 18 00:00:49 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 00:00:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2950748501539308336==" --===============2950748501539308336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, a plan made with reality in mind, not just want you wish to happen. Whe= n you pass the people you task with executing your will might not be able to = do it so gotta think along those lines. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 17, 2024, at 16:55, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>> My Lovely Wife, were she to become a Lovely Widow has enough trouble >>> dealing with day-to-day tasks. There's no way that she would want to >>> deal with the minutiae of getting rid of the old junk I have. >>> It will simplify her life dramatically. >>>=20 >>> >>>=20 >>> --Chuck >>>=20 >> Hi Chuck, >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> My intention is to have friends act as executioners of my stuff as they >> too are collectors. >>=20 >>=20 >> John :-#)# >>=20 >=20 > I suppose the point is, have a plan that works.for you and you family. No > plan is to be avoided >=20 > Yes? >=20 > B >=20 >>=20 --===============2950748501539308336==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Jul 18 05:27:38 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 23:36:05 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3616248412887868284==" --===============3616248412887868284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What if you outlive your =E2=80=9Cexecutioners=E2=80=9D ? You need to have someone a good deal younger than you to be your executor.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 17, 2024, at 16:24, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2024/07/17 11:26 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Having just updated my Advance Directives document before going under >> the knife and saw, I thought a bit about the subject of estate planning. >>=20 >> My Lovely Wife, were she to become a Lovely Widow has enough trouble >> dealing with day-to-day tasks. There's no way that she would want to >> deal with the minutiae of getting rid of the old junk I have. Since >> I'll be long past the "caring" stage, I've informed her that it's >> perfectly acceptable to my memory to have a cleaning service come in and >> dispose of the stuff by carting it off to a recycler. >>=20 >> It will simplify her life dramatically. >>=20 >> Sorry, but that's what will work for her. She will not deal well with >> strangers coming into her house, ransacking the place for a bunch of old >> computer gear and musical instruments. >>=20 >> --Chuck >>=20 > Hi Chuck, >=20 > Having had a quad bypass (I'm good!) a few years back I've thought about th= is a bit too. >=20 > My intention is to have friends act as executioners of my stuff as they too= are collectors. >=20 > I do believe if they get money for the stuff it will help my wife out in th= e future after they cover expenses and their time...the idea is they would si= mply take everything my wife doesn't want away and deal with the disposal for= her and then make some restitution to her. >=20 > These are honourable folks...and my wife knows them. >=20 > John :-#)# >=20 --===============3616248412887868284==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Thu Jul 18 05:51:55 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 22:51:48 -0700 Message-ID: <6698ad75.170a0220.e06ca.52af@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21812791DBF04CCA7193DDD6E4A32=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0512522986912034631==" --===============0512522986912034631== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am dreading the whole executor business again.=C2=A0 When I was young I had= my Dad, but he passed a year ago, so I have to change that.=C2=A0 I have see= n first hand now what the job entails and I'm not really sure my children are= up to it - it is a major undertaking. Almost all of my family lives 3000km a= way too so there's not a ton of younger than me options.=C2=A0 I don't think = my wife wants or can handle that duty either.BradSent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Wayne S via cctalk Date: 2024-07-17 10:27=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: jrr(a)flippers.= com, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Wayne S Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Pla= nning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay What if you outlive your =E2=80=9Cexecu= tioners=E2=80=9D ?You need to have someone a good deal younger than you to be= your executor. Sent from my iPhone> On Jul 17, 2024, at 16:24, John Robertso= n via cctalk wrote:> > =EF=BB=BFOn 2024/07/17 11:26= a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:>> Having just updated my Advance Directi= ves document before going under>> the knife and saw, I thought a bit about th= e subject of estate planning.>> >> My Lovely Wife, were she to become a Lovel= y Widow has enough trouble>> dealing with day-to-day tasks.=C2=A0 There's no = way that she would want to>> deal with the minutiae of getting rid of the old= junk I have.=C2=A0 Since>> I'll be long past the "caring" stage, I've inform= ed her that it's>> perfectly acceptable to my memory to have a cleaning servi= ce come in and>> dispose of the stuff by carting it off to a recycler.>> >> I= t will simplify her life dramatically.>> >> Sorry, but that's what will work = for her.=C2=A0 She will not deal well with>> strangers coming into her house,= ransacking the place for a bunch of old>> computer gear and musical instrume= nts.>> >> --Chuck>> > Hi Chuck,> > Having had a quad bypass (I'm good!) a few= years back I've thought about this a bit too.> > My intention is to have fri= ends act as executioners of my stuff as they too are collectors.> > I do beli= eve if they get money for the stuff it will help my wife out in the future af= ter they cover expenses and their time...the idea is they would simply take e= verything my wife doesn't want away and deal with the disposal for her and th= en make some restitution to her.> > These are honourable folks...and my wife = knows them.> > John :-#)#>=20 --===============0512522986912034631==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Jul 18 06:34:49 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 06:34:38 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6698ad75.170a0220.e06ca.52af@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5118224453430878391==" --===============5118224453430878391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You do not have to make a relative the executor. If you have an estate planne= r they could make a recommendation. It can be anyone. You can name co-executo= rs( as many as you want) =E2=80=94 you can even assign a task to each co-exec= utor. Read up on it. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 17, 2024, at 22:51, brad wrote: =EF=BB=BF I am dreading the whole executor business again. When I was young I had my D= ad, but he passed a year ago, so I have to change that. I have seen first ha= nd now what the job entails and I'm not really sure my children are up to it = - it is a major undertaking. Almost all of my family lives 3000km away too so= there's not a ton of younger than me options. I don't think my wife wants o= r can handle that duty either. Brad Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message -------- From: Wayne S via cctalk Date: 2024-07-17 10:27=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: jrr(a)flippers.com, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Wayne S Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay What if you outlive your =E2=80=9Cexecutioners=E2=80=9D ? You need to have someone a good deal younger than you to be your executor. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 17, 2024, at 16:24, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: > > =EF=BB=BFOn 2024/07/17 11:26 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Having just updated my Advance Directives document before going under >> the knife and saw, I thought a bit about the subject of estate planning. >> >> My Lovely Wife, were she to become a Lovely Widow has enough trouble >> dealing with day-to-day tasks. There's no way that she would want to >> deal with the minutiae of getting rid of the old junk I have. Since >> I'll be long past the "caring" stage, I've informed her that it's >> perfectly acceptable to my memory to have a cleaning service come in and >> dispose of the stuff by carting it off to a recycler. >> >> It will simplify her life dramatically. >> >> Sorry, but that's what will work for her. She will not deal well with >> strangers coming into her house, ransacking the place for a bunch of old >> computer gear and musical instruments. >> >> --Chuck >> > Hi Chuck, > > Having had a quad bypass (I'm good!) a few years back I've thought about th= is a bit too. > > My intention is to have friends act as executioners of my stuff as they too= are collectors. > > I do believe if they get money for the stuff it will help my wife out in th= e future after they cover expenses and their time...the idea is they would si= mply take everything my wife doesn't want away and deal with the disposal for= her and then make some restitution to her. > > These are honourable folks...and my wife knows them. > > John :-#)# > --===============5118224453430878391==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Thu Jul 18 09:08:37 2024 From: David Wade To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Civility; Was Re: Re: LCM auction pre-notice Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 10:08:29 +0100 Message-ID: <933f9800-614a-4a6c-b2cc-77b97390d174@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5054536776355338868==" --===============5054536776355338868== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/07/2024 20:15, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > The number of UK museums seem to be growing. Perhaps some of the newer ones > are not yet full. I think the large Science Museums are pretty well off but > the smaller ones may be more flexible. Of course, they are also in greater > danger of fading away. The Science Museum Group has space but I believe it struggles money. It has made staff redundant recently and closed the Air and Space hall=20 in Manchester last year and scaled updates to the spaces there. > I'm sure you're aware of TNMoC at Bletchley Park (though not the same > organisation as the Bletchley Park Trust) . I am a member of the "TNMOC Supporters club" . > I'm hoping to get involved > there myself soon. They seem to be mainly limited by the rate at which they > can restore the many old buildings on the site. There are still a lot left > semi-derelict. Very few now, and all the TNMOC buildings are leased from the Bletchley=20 Park Trust so as interest in the park grows the Trust may be inclined to=20 let them to commercial concerns. They will accept some donations. > Although both organisations have improved their standing a > lot recently, I'm still astonished when I compare it with the museum > Curious Marc and his team recently visited. I think we expect Museums in the UK to be free. They have to be free to=20 get government money. I think TNMOC charges =C2=A310. Its not really enough, = but I am sure folks would gripe at more. I recently visited the OXO=20 Museum in Malaga which is 15=E2=82=AC for two hours. Its much smaller than TN= MOC=20 yet because of its location I am sure it takes a lot more money. OXO is=20 well worth a visit even if you are not a gamer... https://oxomuseo.com/ > Two other notable but more recently established museums are Cambridge's > 'Centre for computing History' which has a variety of HP and DEC systems in > addition to many homegrown Cambridge machines, A great place, but I think they would only accept things of real=20 importance. They have recently sold off surplus items.. > and Sam Battle's 'This > museum is not obsolete', a volunteer-run museum with a very dedicated staff > and an astounding ability to take on work and exhibits. I'd recommend both > for a visit and perhaps a donation. Not managed to get there yet but on my "Must See" list There is also the "Retro Computer Museum" in Leicester https://retrocomputermuseum.co.uk/ This is a great place to visit, and has an extensive Library. Andy who=20 runs it has taken a few items from me, but also turned down a few.... .. and the Northwest Computer Museum.. https://www.nwcomputermuseum.org.uk/ which is pretty new, but again a great place for post-mainframe exhibits.... ... not sure where Joe is with donations... Dave G4UGM > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 6:53=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Wed, 17 Jul 2024, Alan Perry wrote: >>> My wife worked at the part of Sun that made many of the machines in my >>> collection when they were being made, so she is fine with my computer >>> collection. >> Does she have a sister? >> >> >> --===============5054536776355338868==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jul 18 12:07:59 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 08:07:39 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21812791DBF04CCA7193DDD6E4A32=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5880888577252283270==" --===============5880888577252283270== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The thought occured to me that "registering your collection" with the local computer club or school might not be a bad idea Bill On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 1:38 AM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > What if you outlive your “executioners” ? > You need to have someone a good deal younger than you to be your executor. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 17, 2024, at 16:24, John Robertson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 2024/07/17 11:26 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Having just updated my Advance Directives document before going under > >> the knife and saw, I thought a bit about the subject of estate planning. > >> > >> My Lovely Wife, were she to become a Lovely Widow has enough trouble > >> dealing with day-to-day tasks. There's no way that she would want to > >> deal with the minutiae of getting rid of the old junk I have. Since > >> I'll be long past the "caring" stage, I've informed her that it's > >> perfectly acceptable to my memory to have a cleaning service come in and > >> dispose of the stuff by carting it off to a recycler. > >> > >> It will simplify her life dramatically. > >> > >> Sorry, but that's what will work for her. She will not deal well with > >> strangers coming into her house, ransacking the place for a bunch of old > >> computer gear and musical instruments. > >> > >> --Chuck > >> > > Hi Chuck, > > > > Having had a quad bypass (I'm good!) a few years back I've thought about > this a bit too. > > > > My intention is to have friends act as executioners of my stuff as they > too are collectors. > > > > I do believe if they get money for the stuff it will help my wife out in > the future after they cover expenses and their time...the idea is they > would simply take everything my wife doesn't want away and deal with the > disposal for her and then make some restitution to her. > > > > These are honourable folks...and my wife knows them. > > > > John :-#)# > > > --===============5880888577252283270==-- From mark.romberg@gmail.com Thu Jul 18 12:56:58 2024 From: mark audacity romberg To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 07:56:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181338D998CF14509081218E4AC2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6927211504748044105==" --===============6927211504748044105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why not arrange for a reseller or auction house to buy it wholesale, rather t= han having it all destroyed? It=E2=80=99s rare stuff that someone else could = enjoy, and it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be sold piecemeal or involve her dealin= g with any of the details.=20 Please don=E2=80=99t have rare, irreplaceable things that other people could = enjoy destroyed. I perfectly understand not wanting to subject her to the has= sle of selling everything, especially while she=E2=80=99s mourning, but there= are other ways than sending them to the grinder.=20 =E2=80=94mark >> , I've informed her that it's >> perfectly acceptable to my memory to have a cleaning service come in and >> dispose of the stuff by carting it off to a recycler. >>=20 >> It will simplify her life dramatically. >>=20 >> Sorry, but that's what will work for her. She will not deal well with >> strangers coming into her house, ransacking the place for a bunch of old >> computer gear and musical instruments. >>=20 >> --Chuck --===============6927211504748044105==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Jul 18 13:15:54 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 09:15:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7075967129252032496==" --===============7075967129252032496== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/18/2024 8:56 AM, mark audacity romberg via cctalk wrote: > Why not arrange for a reseller or auction house to buy it wholesale, rather= than having it all destroyed? It=E2=80=99s rare stuff that someone else coul= d enjoy, and it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be sold piecemeal or involve her deal= ing with any of the details. I once had a reseller offer me $100 for all my DEC stuff. Including two brand new, still in the box, modules that they were currently selling for over $1000 each. Nobody is going to "enjoy" any of it. They will pay nothing, sell what has value at ridiculous prices and trash the rest. And today, I doubt they would even offer that much for what I have. >=20 > Please don=E2=80=99t have rare, irreplaceable things that other people coul= d enjoy destroyed. I perfectly understand not wanting to subject her to the h= assle of selling everything, especially while she=E2=80=99s mourning, but the= re are other ways than sending them to the grinder. Sadly, while we value these old computers, the world couldn't care less and the actual value is mostly nothing. I have piles of other "collectables" like sports and other kinds of trading cards. I have attempted to sell a lot of it. So far I have made maybe $20 total on more than a dozen very old and supposedly rare baseball cards. Most of the other stuff either sells for less than the postage needed to send them anywhere or actually has no value at all no matter how rare. bill --===============7075967129252032496==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Thu Jul 18 15:52:31 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Estate Planning was: Re: Auction houses vs ebay Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 15:44:51 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181338D998CF14509081218E4AC2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7989863835594624371==" --===============7989863835594624371== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wednesday, July 17th, 2024 at 23:34, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > You do not have to make a relative the executor. If you have an estate plan= ner they could > make a recommendation. It can be anyone. You can name co-executors( as many= as you want) > =E2=80=94 you can even assign a task to each co-executor. > Read up on it. I just wanted to chime in to say that this is legit, and a good idea. I did = the same thing when I last re-vamped my will, and my estate advisor signed off on it. I hig= hly recommend considering co-executors (e.g., having a designated primary and backup execut= or for home IT related stuff, like accounts). The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============7989863835594624371==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Jul 20 02:52:23 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 21:52:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0965547219258013625==" --===============0965547219258013625== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last month, I got to speak at VCF SW on aspects about the history of personal computers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpF6Ofrr6_0 (I botched a couple things, a link to corrections is in the Description) I brought up the 1968 book "How to build a working digital computer"(Alcosser). I was wondering about opinions here on that book - was it at all influential at the time? Or is anyone aware of actually building the system it describes? And - any thoughts on "digital computer" vs analog? I'm aware of early Heathkit analog computers. Is it fair to say quantum computing is sort of a return back to analog computing? I recently heard someone make a comment that we're near the end of the "3.3V era" (maybe this was in the recent X16 talk, where some of the challenges of the recent retro-remakes is exploring back to the 5V era and how it's getting more difficult to find modern-make components that support that). Has no one explored a "tri-state" system? (discrete regions across 5V?) - Steve (v* voidstar tech, not to be confused with voidstar labs) --===============0965547219258013625==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Jul 20 05:55:37 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage computing magazine/newsletters Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 00:55:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6696f8e7.170a0220.9a6bc.6772@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4182214851003594775==" --===============4182214851003594775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The main appeal of digital archives is that they can then be digitally scanned. And, I think it would be useful to have an "AI" of sorts that can parse and categorize all those old articles (like "technical articles" versus "advertisements" - or something that could find first/last names of folks who authored articles or were mentioned in articles, and try to map them between articles). (to me AI is more about assisted or augmented intelligence, not actual artificial intelligence) But the appeal of printed material is "validation" that those digital archives aren't AI-generated or "doctored." Aside from the technical details, they are also witness to the cultural aspects of how things were presented and advertised. But as real estate costs grow, for sure there comes a point where we just can't physically store everything (or at least not everything in a safe, roden-protected, weather-proof means). In a way - modern society is "migrating" into cyberspace. I suspect within 100 years we'll have a "digital nation" online, where from today's perspective we're not able to comprehend how they'll address physical legal boundaries between the virtual ones. Or as we recognize that we're just not equipped to expand into outer-space, effectively the depth of cyberspace is nearly equally infinite. On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 5:49 PM brad via cctalk wrote: > Yes I find them useful also. But they are almost all archived on > archive.org.. so I wondered how much value an actual paper copy would > have. I thought Peoples Computer Company had a decent circulation (like in > the tens of thousands) and could be expected to turn up from time to time. > Have to pay more attention.Sent from my Galaxy > -------- Original message --------From: Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 2024-07-16 3:38 p.m. (GMT-08:00) To: > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old vintage > computing magazine/newsletters Personally I find them invaluable for > research.BillOn Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 5:53 PM Brad H via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>wrote:> Just a 'survey' sort of question - how much > value do you guys put in> vintage> copies of old newsletters, magazines, > etc. I'm talking mid-1970s, like> People's Computer Company, etc. Someone > has been selling them one at a> time> on ebay and they routinely go for > $125+ each! Was PCC fairly low> circulation? I have no idea how rare > these things are - if I should just> dive in to have my memento or wait. > Looking at auction history it seems to> be the same group of 2 or 3 bidders > going nuts over them.>>>> One newsletter I would love to find an original > copy of is Micro-8.. but I> think the circulation on that was just a > hundred or so, so probably> unlikely. It has some blurbs from Grant Runyan > in there, who built my TVT> and Mark-8.>>>> But yeah, I just wondered if > you guys think generally this stuff *should&> be> considered valuable - > given most/all is archived online.>>>> Brad>> --===============4182214851003594775==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Jul 20 06:06:05 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 02:05:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1298708896177160765==" --===============1298708896177160765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve You ask a lot of good questions. The story is pretty well documented. There was a company that made a commercial version of the computer described in the book https://blog.adafruit.com/2013/05/08/how-to-build-a-working-digital-computer-= out-of-paperclips/ There is a nice paperclip computer at the System Source museum in Hunt Valley, MD. I am sure there are people who actually built homebrew versions by following the book but I have never seen one. Analog computers are not like quantum computers enough for a valid comparison. Different era, different uses. Quantum computers are still digital computers and they're really nothing like analog computers of the 50's-late 60's. Analog computers were wired to complete a circuit that performs a mathematical function circuit. The inputs and outputs are voltages or other electronically-measurable forces such as vibration. When an analog computer program runs the output is sent to a voltmeter, oscilloscope, plotter or counter, or custom device. A person would take the plot (waves, plotted points, etc.) and measure the slope or wave frequency manually by performing additional calculations with a slide rule or feeding the data into a digital computer for analysis. Think smart programmable thermostat. Analog computers are more like open-use peripherals that can be programmed to do one thing at a time over and over. Analog computers often had amplifier tubes which were used to generate input voltage pulses to be fed into the program circuitry. I am just touching the surface, but hope that explains what they did. They're no longer used for general computing because now we have USB devices that do analog to digital conversion 50's-60s' analog computer programming is done by patch panel. BIll On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 10:58=E2=80=AFPM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Last month, I got to speak at VCF SW on aspects about the history of > personal computers. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DfpF6Ofrr6_0 > (I botched a couple things, a link to corrections is in the Description) > > I brought up the 1968 book "How to build a working digital > computer"(Alcosser). I was wondering about opinions here on that book - > was it at all influential at the time? Or is anyone aware of actually > building the system it describes? > > And - any thoughts on "digital computer" vs analog? I'm aware of early > Heathkit analog computers. Is it fair to say quantum computing is sort of > a return back to analog computing? > > I recently heard someone make a comment that we're near the end of the > "3.3V era" (maybe this was in the recent X16 talk, where some of the > challenges of the recent retro-remakes is exploring back to the 5V era and > how it's getting more difficult to find modern-make components that support > that). > > Has no one explored a "tri-state" system? (discrete regions across 5V?) > > - Steve > > (v* voidstar tech, not to be confused with voidstar labs) > --===============1298708896177160765==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Jul 20 06:07:09 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 02:06:54 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5932988655146535837==" --===============5932988655146535837== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I should add, the paperclip computer was a mechanical computer, not an analog computer in the 50-60's sense of the term. b On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 2:05=E2=80=AFAM Bill Degnan = wrote: > Steve > You ask a lot of good questions. > The story is pretty well documented. There was a company that made a > commercial version of the computer described in the book > > https://blog.adafruit.com/2013/05/08/how-to-build-a-working-digital-compute= r-out-of-paperclips/ > There is a nice paperclip computer at the System Source museum in Hunt > Valley, MD. > I am sure there are people who actually built homebrew versions by > following the book but I have never seen one. > > Analog computers are not like quantum computers enough for a valid > comparison. Different era, different uses. Quantum computers are still > digital computers and they're really nothing like analog computers of the > 50's-late 60's. > > Analog computers were wired to complete a circuit that performs a > mathematical function circuit. The inputs and outputs are voltages or > other electronically-measurable forces such as vibration. When an analog > computer program runs the output is sent to a voltmeter, oscilloscope, > plotter or counter, or custom device. A person would take the plot (waves, > plotted points, etc.) and measure the slope or wave frequency manually by > performing additional calculations with a slide rule or feeding the data > into a digital computer for analysis. Think smart programmable thermostat. > > Analog computers are more like open-use peripherals that can be programmed > to do one thing at a time over and over. Analog computers often > had amplifier tubes which were used to generate input voltage pulses to be > fed into the program circuitry. I am just touching the surface, but hope > that explains what they did. They're no longer used for general computing > because now we have USB devices that do analog to digital conversion > > 50's-60s' analog computer programming is done by patch panel. > > BIll > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 10:58=E2=80=AFPM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Last month, I got to speak at VCF SW on aspects about the history of >> personal computers. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DfpF6Ofrr6_0 >> (I botched a couple things, a link to corrections is in the Description) >> >> I brought up the 1968 book "How to build a working digital >> computer"(Alcosser). I was wondering about opinions here on that book - >> was it at all influential at the time? Or is anyone aware of actually >> building the system it describes? >> >> And - any thoughts on "digital computer" vs analog? I'm aware of early >> Heathkit analog computers. Is it fair to say quantum computing is sort of >> a return back to analog computing? >> >> I recently heard someone make a comment that we're near the end of the >> "3.3V era" (maybe this was in the recent X16 talk, where some of the >> challenges of the recent retro-remakes is exploring back to the 5V era and >> how it's getting more difficult to find modern-make components that >> support >> that). >> >> Has no one explored a "tri-state" system? (discrete regions across 5V?) >> >> - Steve >> >> (v* voidstar tech, not to be confused with voidstar labs) >> > --===============5932988655146535837==-- From chris@groessler.org Sat Jul 20 08:54:32 2024 From: Christian Groessler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 10:41:41 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6893156163024150047==" --===============6893156163024150047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/20/24 4:52 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > Has no one explored a "tri-state" system? (discrete regions across 5V?) > Do you mean ternary computers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer Former SU played with it a bit... regards, chris --===============6893156163024150047==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Sat Jul 20 12:47:23 2024 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT computer system... Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:47:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1ca33850-2d76-45c7-b0ce-832d7c8b199b@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2863635942723260150==" --===============2863635942723260150== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 1:04=E2=80=AFPM cz via cctalk wrote: > It uses the 3 volt Lithium cell found in later Apple devices. Should not > leak or explode, replace it and move on. > > Needed to start up the NeXT. Yes it is, and as I found out when I pulled out my NeXT cube for VCF 5 years ago, the default boot device you get after replacing the battery is the optical drive (which mine does not have - I have the fat Maxtor drive). From that thread, this is a handy link for new NeXT owners (still good in 2024)... http://n-1.nl/next/hardware/info/rom-monitor.html And in my case, this is what I had to do... "Turns out, the default when populating from dead/missing battery is 'od'. Fixed it by jumping into the ROM prompt and using 'p' to set the default to 'sd' then 'b sd' to fire it up." -ethan ~ --===============2863635942723260150==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Jul 21 01:43:19 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 17:46:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2817730570370034759==" --===============2817730570370034759== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A fair clarification, I realize that I was sort of mixing two different topics (and didn't mean to imply it had anything to do with analog computing). What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital computer" and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog computer" - and what they might even look like. It's also funny to me they've inserted the word "working" (I wonder if that was a subtle tribute to the Babbage machine, which at the time wasn't confirmed to be a working system -- I've read that the Mark-1 was largely inspired as an intent to realize the Analytic Engine, but the Mark-1 does include numerous "electro" upgrades probably to make the implementation far more practical and more useful in the end). and - thanks on the notes for ternary computers (and also references to where this "paperclip computer" has been realized in the past!). -Steve On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 2:03=E2=80=AFPM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I should add, the paperclip computer was a mechanical computer, not an > analog computer in the 50-60's sense of the term. > b > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 2:05=E2=80=AFAM Bill Degnan wrote: > > > Steve > > You ask a lot of good questions. > > The story is pretty well documented. There was a company that made a > > commercial version of the computer described in the book > > > > > https://blog.adafruit.com/2013/05/08/how-to-build-a-working-digital-compute= r-out-of-paperclips/ > > There is a nice paperclip computer at the System Source museum in Hunt > > Valley, MD. > > I am sure there are people who actually built homebrew versions by > > following the book but I have never seen one. > > > > Analog computers are not like quantum computers enough for a valid > > comparison. Different era, different uses. Quantum computers are still > > digital computers and they're really nothing like analog computers of the > > 50's-late 60's. > > > > Analog computers were wired to complete a circuit that performs a > > mathematical function circuit. The inputs and outputs are voltages or > > other electronically-measurable forces such as vibration. When an analog > > computer program runs the output is sent to a voltmeter, oscilloscope, > > plotter or counter, or custom device. A person would take the plot > (waves, > > plotted points, etc.) and measure the slope or wave frequency manually by > > performing additional calculations with a slide rule or feeding the data > > into a digital computer for analysis. Think smart programmable > thermostat. > > > > Analog computers are more like open-use peripherals that can be > programmed > > to do one thing at a time over and over. Analog computers often > > had amplifier tubes which were used to generate input voltage pulses to > be > > fed into the program circuitry. I am just touching the surface, but hope > > that explains what they did. They're no longer used for general > computing > > because now we have USB devices that do analog to digital conversion > > > > 50's-60s' analog computer programming is done by patch panel. > > > > BIll > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 10:58=E2=80=AFPM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Last month, I got to speak at VCF SW on aspects about the history of > >> personal computers. > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DfpF6Ofrr6_0 > >> (I botched a couple things, a link to corrections is in the Description) > >> > >> I brought up the 1968 book "How to build a working digital > >> computer"(Alcosser). I was wondering about opinions here on that book - > >> was it at all influential at the time? Or is anyone aware of > actually > >> building the system it describes? > >> > >> And - any thoughts on "digital computer" vs analog? I'm aware of early > >> Heathkit analog computers. Is it fair to say quantum computing is sort > of > >> a return back to analog computing? > >> > >> I recently heard someone make a comment that we're near the end of the > >> "3.3V era" (maybe this was in the recent X16 talk, where some of the > >> challenges of the recent retro-remakes is exploring back to the 5V era > and > >> how it's getting more difficult to find modern-make components that > >> support > >> that). > >> > >> Has no one explored a "tri-state" system? (discrete regions across 5V?) > >> > >> - Steve > >> > >> (v* voidstar tech, not to be confused with voidstar labs) > >> > > > --===============2817730570370034759==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jul 21 02:04:55 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:04:49 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5084643808848456166==" --===============5084643808848456166== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 20 Jul 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital computer" > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > computer" - and what they might even look like. half a century ago, my cousin showed me some plexiglas blocks with odd shaped holes through them, and said that they were from an experimental analog computer. I guess that you could figure out fluid behavior by making analogies to electronics - amount of flow is kinda like current, amount of head or pressure is kinda like voltage, restrictions are kinda like resistance, one way valves are diodes, . . . --===============5084643808848456166==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jul 21 02:29:59 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:29:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1520966060307797820==" --===============1520966060307797820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Instead of paper clips and cardboard, consider a pachinko like marble based computer. (claimed to be Turing complete, if you expand it enough) https://upperstory.com/en/turingtumble It's bulkier than a mobile phone. or relays? : https://www.amazon.com/Giant-brains-Machines-that-think/dp/B0006AS6Q4 Giant Brains : or Machines That Think by Edmund C. Berkeley His Simon computer was a relay based (a bit limited for modern uses), but was an early (1950) electro-mechanical personal computer. --===============1520966060307797820==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun Jul 21 04:41:54 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 05:41:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9102638668281491885==" --===============9102638668281491885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 3:08 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital computer" > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > computer" - and what they might even look like. There have been mechanical analogue computers and I have at least one book describing them on my shelves. Typically they used disc integrators with an igenious arrangement of strings and drums as a torque amplifier. These were then coupled by gearing which had to be set up for each problem (simple gear trains correspond to fixed gain amplifiers, differential gear trains to differential amplfiiers, etc). I doubt you could make one from cardboard, but there was at least one UK University that made a simple one from Meccano (similar to Erector Sets across the Pond?). It was on show, not operating, in the London Science Museum at one time, but I think it's in storage now, -tony --===============9102638668281491885==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 21 05:03:49 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 23:03:42 -0600 Message-ID: <230d1cf2-39e5-4999-9acf-1b9b6cdc953a@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5482599414800185351==" --===============5482599414800185351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-07-20 10:41 p.m., Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 3:08 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > >> What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital computer" >> and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog >> computer" - and what they might even look like. > > There have been mechanical analogue computers and I have at least one > book describing them on my shelves. > > Typically they used disc integrators with an igenious arrangement of > strings and drums as a torque amplifier. These were then coupled by > gearing which had to be set up for each problem (simple gear trains > correspond to fixed gain amplifiers, differential gear trains to > differential amplfiiers, etc). > > I doubt you could make one from cardboard, but there was at least one > UK University that made a simple one from Meccano (similar to Erector > Sets across the Pond?). It was on show, not operating, in the London > Science Museum at one time, but I think it's in storage now, > > -tony Fluid computing, tech of the future. Or it was in 1968... --===============5482599414800185351==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Sun Jul 21 07:46:03 2024 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 08:45:55 +0100 Message-ID: <09f901dadb42$05077430$0f165c90$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5674922711880584431==" --===============5674922711880584431== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2024 5:42 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Steve Lewis ; Tony Duell > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer >=20 > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 3:08=E2=80=AFAM Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital computer" > > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > > computer" - and what they might even look like. >=20 > There have been mechanical analogue computers and I have at least one book > describing them on my shelves. >=20 > Typically they used disc integrators with an igenious arrangement of string= s and > drums as a torque amplifier. These were then coupled by gearing which had to > be set up for each problem (simple gear trains correspond to fixed gain > amplifiers, differential gear trains to differential amplfiiers, etc). >=20 > I doubt you could make one from cardboard, but there was at least one UK > University that made a simple one from Meccano (similar to Erector Sets acr= oss > the Pond?). It was on show, not operating, in the London Science Museum at > one time, but I think it's in storage now, Several people have made Analog Computers from Meccano. The "first" I think w= as at Manchester University in the UK intended as a prototype or proof of con= cept it was later replaced by an engineered device. Both were on display in the Science Museum but I believe they are now in Stor= age. Cambridge University UK also had a Meccano Analog Computer. I believe th= is is the one now on display at MOTAT, Aukland, New Zealand https://motat.nz/ there are some pictures of it on my one drive (if it asks you to sign in and = you don't wish to use an incognito window) https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onlsxny71p3CPOQV4svA?e=3DaSdamK=20 in more recent times Tim Robinson built one... https://www.meccano.us/differential_analyzers/robinson_da/index.html .. so there are some clues on how to do it about, but no book as far as I know >=20 > -tony Dave G4UGM --===============5674922711880584431==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun Jul 21 09:39:56 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 10:39:38 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <09f901dadb42$05077430$0f165c90$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4991785929558869555==" --===============4991785929558869555== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think when the book was written, digital computers were the latest tech and analog computers had been actually pretty common for 30 years. Technology included fluid ( https://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/how-does-economy-work), mechanical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerrison_Predictor) and electronic. I don't think the title was related to the analytical engine, my take would be that it was just an encouragement to the reader that it was an achievable and usable device. It may be that the military uses contributed to the lack of public documentation of the mechanical systems. On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 9:03 AM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tony Duell via cctalk > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2024 5:42 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Steve Lewis ; Tony Duell > > > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer > > > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 3:08 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > > > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital > computer" > > > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > > > computer" - and what they might even look like. > > > > There have been mechanical analogue computers and I have at least one > book > > describing them on my shelves. > > > > Typically they used disc integrators with an igenious arrangement of > strings and > > drums as a torque amplifier. These were then coupled by gearing which > had to > > be set up for each problem (simple gear trains correspond to fixed gain > > amplifiers, differential gear trains to differential amplfiiers, etc). > > > > I doubt you could make one from cardboard, but there was at least one UK > > University that made a simple one from Meccano (similar to Erector Sets > across > > the Pond?). It was on show, not operating, in the London Science Museum > at > > one time, but I think it's in storage now, > > Several people have made Analog Computers from Meccano. The "first" I > think was at Manchester University in the UK intended as a prototype or > proof of concept it was later replaced by an engineered device. > Both were on display in the Science Museum but I believe they are now in > Storage. Cambridge University UK also had a Meccano Analog Computer. I > believe this is the one now on display at MOTAT, Aukland, New Zealand > > https://motat.nz/ > > there are some pictures of it on my one drive (if it asks you to sign in > and you don't wish to use an incognito window) > > https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onlsxny71p3CPOQV4svA?e=aSdamK > > in more recent times Tim Robinson built one... > > https://www.meccano.us/differential_analyzers/robinson_da/index.html > > .. so there are some clues on how to do it about, but no book as far as I > know > > > > > -tony > > Dave > G4UGM > > --===============4991785929558869555==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jul 21 14:29:35 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 07:29:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8789359208599204691==" --===============8789359208599204691== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm pretty sure the book included "Working" in the title because who wants to build a non-working computer? Also, mechanical analog computer = slide rule :) Sellam On Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 5:08 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I think when the book was written, digital computers were the latest tech > and analog computers had been actually pretty common for 30 years. > Technology included fluid ( > https://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/how-does-economy-work > ), > mechanical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerrison_Predictor) and > electronic. > > I don't think the title was related to the analytical engine, my take would > be that it was just an encouragement to the reader that it was an > achievable and usable device. > > It may be that the military uses contributed to the lack of public > documentation of the mechanical systems. > > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 9:03 AM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tony Duell via cctalk > > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2024 5:42 AM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > Cc: Steve Lewis ; Tony Duell > > > > > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 3:08 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital > > computer" > > > > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > > > > computer" - and what they might even look like. > > > > > > There have been mechanical analogue computers and I have at least one > > book > > > describing them on my shelves. > > > > > > Typically they used disc integrators with an igenious arrangement of > > strings and > > > drums as a torque amplifier. These were then coupled by gearing which > > had to > > > be set up for each problem (simple gear trains correspond to fixed gain > > > amplifiers, differential gear trains to differential amplfiiers, etc). > > > > > > I doubt you could make one from cardboard, but there was at least one > UK > > > University that made a simple one from Meccano (similar to Erector Sets > > across > > > the Pond?). It was on show, not operating, in the London Science Museum > > at > > > one time, but I think it's in storage now, > > > > Several people have made Analog Computers from Meccano. The "first" I > > think was at Manchester University in the UK intended as a prototype or > > proof of concept it was later replaced by an engineered device. > > Both were on display in the Science Museum but I believe they are now in > > Storage. Cambridge University UK also had a Meccano Analog Computer. I > > believe this is the one now on display at MOTAT, Aukland, New Zealand > > > > https://motat.nz/ > > > > there are some pictures of it on my one drive (if it asks you to sign in > > and you don't wish to use an incognito window) > > > > https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onlsxny71p3CPOQV4svA?e=aSdamK > > > > in more recent times Tim Robinson built one... > > > > https://www.meccano.us/differential_analyzers/robinson_da/index.html > > > > .. so there are some clues on how to do it about, but no book as far as I > > know > > > > > > > > -tony > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > > > > > --===============8789359208599204691==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Jul 21 17:21:07 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 17:23:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0756910240527244823==" --===============0756910240527244823== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian: Fair point on the possible military-uses. I think that's an aspect we often forget about today, compared to back then and "height of the cold war" era. The world was "smaller" then (1950s/1960s) in terms of population being easier to control. Bear with me: what I mean is, it seems then government was far more concerned about technologies and ideas getting into foreign hands. I don't run a business and don't know anything about foreign trade - but "from the outside" it just seems back then, there was a lot more scrutiny on such things in comparison to today. Computers (or "data processing systems" in general) were definitely a competitive advantage that you wouldn't want your adversaries to have. A few years ago I got a FLIR camera, and on the back it says "export controlled" It's the only consumer-device I ever got that has an explicit Export Controlled sticker on it. I imagine if I were to bring it with me on a trip to China, that probably wouldn't go well. Combined also there was a bit more honor in representing your product (back then). Meaning, if you called a little box of wires a computer, first people would claim false advertisement, and second government agents would be interested to know what you're up to (I didn't live in the 50s, so I suspect some of that is a bit hyperbole - but my point is that in contrast today, false-advertisement is kind of the norm and it takes quite a lot for a good ol'e FBI raid these days). (and to clarify - there are some good ads and good products out there, what I mean is there doesn't seem to be much in consequences to false-advertisement, and you can't just bad-mouth that company with the bad-product because they can quickly just morph into another name -- like those cheap $50 "amazing" drones that they claim can do everything a $1000 Mavic Pro can do, mmmhmmmm.... or that CyberTruck is starting to look a bit suspect on the claims it had, but who knows, a little firmware update might solve it all) Actually I haven't checked - do the authors of that book happen to still be around? I'm on the road today, will have to look more into that later tonight. On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:08 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I think when the book was written, digital computers were the latest tech > and analog computers had been actually pretty common for 30 years. > Technology included fluid ( > https://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/how-does-economy-work > ), > mechanical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerrison_Predictor) and > electronic. > > I don't think the title was related to the analytical engine, my take would > be that it was just an encouragement to the reader that it was an > achievable and usable device. > > It may be that the military uses contributed to the lack of public > documentation of the mechanical systems. > > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 9:03 AM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tony Duell via cctalk > > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2024 5:42 AM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > Cc: Steve Lewis ; Tony Duell > > > > > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 3:08 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital > > computer" > > > > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > > > > computer" - and what they might even look like. > > > > > > There have been mechanical analogue computers and I have at least one > > book > > > describing them on my shelves. > > > > > > Typically they used disc integrators with an igenious arrangement of > > strings and > > > drums as a torque amplifier. These were then coupled by gearing which > > had to > > > be set up for each problem (simple gear trains correspond to fixed gain > > > amplifiers, differential gear trains to differential amplfiiers, etc). > > > > > > I doubt you could make one from cardboard, but there was at least one > UK > > > University that made a simple one from Meccano (similar to Erector Sets > > across > > > the Pond?). It was on show, not operating, in the London Science Museum > > at > > > one time, but I think it's in storage now, > > > > Several people have made Analog Computers from Meccano. The "first" I > > think was at Manchester University in the UK intended as a prototype or > > proof of concept it was later replaced by an engineered device. > > Both were on display in the Science Museum but I believe they are now in > > Storage. Cambridge University UK also had a Meccano Analog Computer. I > > believe this is the one now on display at MOTAT, Aukland, New Zealand > > > > https://motat.nz/ > > > > there are some pictures of it on my one drive (if it asks you to sign in > > and you don't wish to use an incognito window) > > > > https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onlsxny71p3CPOQV4svA?e=aSdamK > > > > in more recent times Tim Robinson built one... > > > > https://www.meccano.us/differential_analyzers/robinson_da/index.html > > > > .. so there are some clues on how to do it about, but no book as far as I > > know > > > > > > > > -tony > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > > > > > --===============0756910240527244823==-- From julf@julf.com Sun Jul 21 17:32:41 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 19:32:31 +0200 Message-ID: <3dc7f0f2-b83b-45b7-b14e-5b3c7217ded1@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3597973532158237308==" --===============3597973532158237308== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 21/07/2024 00:23, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > A few years ago I got a FLIR camera, and on the back it says "export > controlled" It's the only consumer-device I ever got that has an explicit > Export Controlled sticker on it. I imagine if I were to bring it with me > on a trip to China, that probably wouldn't go well. I remember back in 1990 or so in the last years of the Soviet Union when I was over in Moscow to help organize the first Soviet UNIX conference. In the list of stuff we were not allowed to bring was the Yamaha DX7 music synthesizer and the Apple LaserWriter. Both had too much CPU power... Julf --===============3597973532158237308==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 21 21:44:44 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 15:44:36 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7449366621392790338==" --===============7449366621392790338== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-07-21 8:29 a.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I'm pretty sure the book included "Working" in the title because who wants > to build a non-working computer? > > Also, mechanical analog computer = slide rule :) > > Sellam > A working computer, is one that makes money? Ben. --===============7449366621392790338==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Sun Jul 21 23:37:27 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 18:37:11 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0766953651807845541==" --===============0766953651807845541== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 9:08 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > A fair clarification, I realize that I was sort of mixing two different > topics (and didn't mean to imply it had anything to do with analog > computing). > > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital computer" > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > computer" - and what they might even look like. > > -Steve > Not retro but when the Goodwill Computer Museum (in Austin) had a knowledgeable team running it they spun off into the Museum of Computer Culture and had created a relay computer the RC3. (They did this while at goodwill but right before the museum got shutdown as it wasn't making the goodwill owners enough money). Unfortunately now the MCC site is also down but a nice reference with a running video (it was loud) but impressive can be found here https://austin.makerfaire.com/maker/entry/709/ There's another relay computer here (I'm not as familiar with) but read that it was a good amount of information around it, maybe it references an early book somewhere. http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html Confusing myself as I thought about it, what category is a relay computer? It's electric and I would say mechanical but then not sure if mechanical can be electric. Is it still analog? - John > --===============0766953651807845541==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jul 21 23:49:25 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 16:49:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5295149080714148961==" --===============5295149080714148961== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 21 Jul 2024, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Not retro but when the Goodwill Computer Museum (in Austin) had a > knowledgeable team running it they spun off into the Museum of Computer > Culture and had created a relay computer the RC3. (They did this while at > goodwill but right before the museum got shutdown as it wasn't making the > goodwill owners enough money). Unfortunately now the MCC site is also down > but a nice reference with a running video (it was loud) but impressive can > be found here https://austin.makerfaire.com/maker/entry/709/ > > There's another relay computer here (I'm not as familiar with) but read > that it was a good amount of information around it, maybe it references an > early book somewhere. http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html > > Confusing myself as I thought about it, what category is a relay computer? > It's electric and I would say mechanical but then not sure if mechanical > can be electric. Is it still analog? Relays are mechanical. Relays are electric, but, are they "electronic"? They are intrinically digital, not analog, but perhaps a hybrid could be built, with analog registers, but digital addreessing? In the late 1960s, I tried to build a photo enlarging/printing exposure and color balance meter, with wheatstone bridges and relays for a crude homemade analog to digital conversion. I got it to work at a proof of concept level, but not well enough to actually be of use. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5295149080714148961==-- From spam@hell.org Sun Jul 21 23:54:03 2024 From: Mike Begley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 23:53:54 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3553164586044004302==" --===============3553164586044004302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Confusing myself as I thought about it, what category is a relay computer? > It's electric and I would say mechanical but then not sure if mechanical ca= n be electric. > Is it still analog? It's digital, in the sense that it operates on data that is encoded into disc= rete values, as opposed to operating on continuous data elements, which would= be analog. I would classify it as an electromechanical digital computer. Also, it's pre= tty neat, and I want one! -mike --===============3553164586044004302==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Mon Jul 22 00:43:17 2024 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 21:43:09 -0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7214607010898404626==" --===============7214607010898404626== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Not retro but when the Goodwill Computer Museum (in Austin) had a > knowledgeable team running it they spun off into the Museum of Computer > Culture and had created a relay computer the RC3. (They did this while at > goodwill but right before the museum got shutdown as it wasn't making the > goodwill owners enough money). Unfortunately now the MCC site is also down > but a nice reference with a running video (it was loud) but impressive can > be found herehttps://austin.makerfaire.com/maker/entry/709/ > > There's another relay computer here (I'm not as familiar with) but read > that it was a good amount of information around it, maybe it references an > early book somewhere.http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html > > Confusing myself as I thought about it, what category is a relay computer? > It's electric and I would say mechanical but then not sure if mechanical > can be electric. Is it still analog? > > - John > I would say digital a common relay has two states open or closed, when you energize the coil it draws in the armature which will open or close the relay's contacts. Konrad Zuse built his first digital computer using largely relay logic in 1940, but his work was not widely known until well after WWII due to him working mostly by himself in Germany.  He was aware that vacuum tubes could be used as logic elements, even having one demonstrated to him by a friend, but stuck with relays as they where easier to obtain. On a trip to Japan CuriousMarc was shown a Japanese relay computer FACOM 128B built in 1958 and still operational. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j544ELauus Paul. --===============7214607010898404626==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Jul 22 01:26:01 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Need Car/Truck space for two DEC size boxes from Chico, Ca to the Chicago area Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 20:25:52 -0500 Message-ID: <01d3ba55-2040-44ab-bff0-674563116c70@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <3dc7f0f2-b83b-45b7-b14e-5b3c7217ded1@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8616232500184307779==" --===============8616232500184307779== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently purchased a PDP-8/L and an expansion box from a very nice gentleman in Chico, California and I need a way to get it to Chicago. If you are driving from Chico, California to Chicago (for VCFMW or just because) and you have room in your car/truck for two 10" High x 19" wide x 24" deep metal boxes plus two small cardboard boxes and are willing to make a stop in Chico to pick up the items I would be very happy to contribute to gas/truck rental. I can drive to meet you if you are coming withing 100 miles of Chicago. Please contact me off list at bitwiz(a)12bitsbest.com to make arrangements. Thank you,            Mike. --===============8616232500184307779==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 22 04:09:18 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 22:09:08 -0600 Message-ID: <18649c2b-ab56-4c09-9e3b-2d9d94588cb6@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3684061565801825024==" --===============3684061565801825024== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-07-21 6:43 p.m., Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > I would say digital a common relay has two states open or closed, when=20 > you energize the coil it draws in the armature which will open or close=20 > the relay's contacts. >=20 > Konrad Zuse built his first digital computer using largely relay logic=20 > in 1940, but his work was not widely known until well after WWII due to=20 > him working mostly by himself in Germany.=C2=A0 He was aware that vacuum=20 > tubes could be used as logic elements, even having one demonstrated to=20 > him by a friend, but stuck with relays as they where easier to obtain. All of Zuse's machines are digital. I find his mechanical memory most interesting. > Paul. Quote on the Z1 > There is a replica of this Model in the Museum of Traffic and Technolog= y in Berlin. Back then it didn't function well, and in that regard the replic= a is very reliable =E2=80=94 it also doesn't work well. > =E2=80=94=E2=80=8AKonrad Zuse Ben. --===============3684061565801825024==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Mon Jul 22 07:17:14 2024 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Relay computers Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 15:16:56 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8906744057065329490==" --===============8906744057065329490== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently people repeatedly mentioned relay computers. There is a very nice 8-bit relay computer implementation by Joe Allen. The computer looks and feels like the microprocessor trainer boards of the 70s. The CPU is implemented in 83 relays. Memory, front panel interface and serial port are implemented in a MicroChip PIC and a few ICs. This is a fully functional computer with a well thought out instruction set. Here is a link to a YouTube video showing the relay computer in operation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1hJoalcK68 Here is the SourceForge project page: http://relaysbc.sourceforge.net/ Joe used to sell the bare PCBs with programmed MicroChip PIC on Tindie and Ebay, but it seems he no longer has any PCBs left. Here is the Tindie link: https://www.tindie.com/products/jhallen/single-board-relay-computer/ Enjoy! Tom --===============8906744057065329490==-- From jrr@flippers.com Mon Jul 22 15:33:57 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 08:33:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7205111805294875602==" --===============7205111805294875602== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024/07/22 12:16 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Recently people repeatedly mentioned relay computers. > > There is a very nice 8-bit relay computer implementation by Joe Allen. The > computer looks and feels like the microprocessor trainer boards of the 70s. > The CPU is implemented in 83 relays. Memory, front panel interface and > serial port are implemented in a MicroChip PIC and a few ICs. This is a > fully functional computer with a well thought out instruction set. > > Here is a link to a YouTube video showing the relay computer in operation: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1hJoalcK68 > > Here is the SourceForge project page: http://relaysbc.sourceforge.net/ > > Joe used to sell the bare PCBs with programmed MicroChip PIC on Tindie and > Ebay, but it seems he no longer has any PCBs left. > > Here is the Tindie link: > https://www.tindie.com/products/jhallen/single-board-relay-computer/ > > Enjoy! > Tom We call them EM pinball games... John ;-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============7205111805294875602==-- From marvin@west.net Mon Jul 22 20:14:40 2024 From: Marvin Johnston To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:14:18 -0700 Message-ID: <246bd6a0-8cc1-4739-8d4d-22a755baa9b1@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6244015959717911198==" --===============6244015959717911198== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One idea I've had for a number of years now is to use a PLC to simulate a relay computer. Seems like it would be a fun project. While I have the PLC, the time and motivation to do it is currently escaping me. The idea came as I was looking at the Simon computer construction project from one of the electronics magazines. Marvin --===============6244015959717911198==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Mon Jul 22 22:32:16 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB: Shugart SA-4008 Hard Drive Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 22:31:58 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6976030768683179428==" --===============6976030768683179428== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As above. Looking for a 14" SA-4008 for testing with the Ohio Scientific CD-2= 3 disk system. We're at the point with it that we can get known good data off= (we see FORTH source in it) but can't boot and get errors off some of the se= ctors/tracks. I'd like to be able to try and initialize it, but the SA-4008 I= have contains useful information that we don't want to destroy! Thanks, Jonathan --===============6976030768683179428==-- From spacewar@gmail.com Tue Jul 23 00:53:36 2024 From: Eric Smith To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 18:53:19 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0737321069620978580==" --===============0737321069620978580== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 8:08 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital computer" > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > computer" - and what they might even look like. > I haven't looked for a book, but if you'll settle for Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_analyser --===============0737321069620978580==-- From jedemtimalter@gmail.com Tue Jul 23 01:05:09 2024 From: Igor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB: Signetics 2519 .. (Apple I components) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 03:04:52 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3278843221659782433==" --===============3278843221659782433== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all! Me and my buddy are building an Apple I replica, for now successfully. Recently we have tested the video signal :) However, we are having big problems (as you can imagine) with finding Signetics 2519 chips. I know many ordered them in bulk, so I would be thankful for any help (we have US address) or information. As for the other components, the 74160, 7450 and DS0025C are the blockers at this moment. These we would probably find much easier (already did actually, just looking to maybe get them from the same source). Thanks in advance, Igor --===============3278843221659782433==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 23 01:06:56 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 18:06:51 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR18MB4826BB3E9B6EDEBF5BE25328ACAF2=40CO1PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?4826=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5970703060095950232==" --===============5970703060095950232== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Besides slide rules, etc. If you have an analog computer consisting of a 5 gallon bucket, and a 3 gallon bucket, and plenty of water available, What are the steps for a PROGRAM to get a result of 4 gallons of water in the 5 gallon bucket? --===============5970703060095950232==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 23 01:18:12 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 19:18:04 -0600 Message-ID: <2f615b4d-be88-4d17-85e6-bdb11cee5394@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7723384766429260927==" --===============7723384766429260927== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-07-22 7:06 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Besides slide rules, etc. > > If you have an analog computer consisting of a 5 gallon bucket, and a 3 > gallon bucket, and plenty of water available, What are the steps for a > PROGRAM to get a result of 4 gallons of water in the 5 gallon bucket? Step 1: Get a cowboy with a 10 gallon hat.:) --===============7723384766429260927==-- From spc@conman.org Tue Jul 23 01:57:39 2024 From: Sean Conner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 21:32:50 -0400 Message-ID: <20240723013250.GD15337@brevard.conman.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5146514049822474567==" --===============5146514049822474567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated: > Besides slide rules, etc. > > If you have an analog computer consisting of a 5 gallon bucket, and a 3 > gallon bucket, and plenty of water available, > What are the steps for a PROGRAM to get a result of 4 gallons of water in > the 5 gallon bucket? 1. Fill 5g bucket 2. Fill 3g bucket from 5g bucket 3. Empty 3g bucket 4. Fill 3g bucket from 5g bucket (3g bucket will have 2g after) 5. Fill 5g bucket 6. Fill 3g bucket from 5g bucket. This will leave 4g in the 5g bucket, and 3g in the 3g bucket. -spc --===============5146514049822474567==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 02:30:12 2024 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 02:30:00 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6866466333028216862==" --===============6866466333028216862== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the last vcf here in California a fellow, I forget the name, brought in tw= o tables that connected together, could generate a damped sine wave. It used = mostly Manco erector like parts. It had some really great 0 backlash torque m= ultipliers. They had to be finely tuned so as to have almost 0 load on the in= tegrating disk. WW2 fire control computers were used on US battle ships. They had to compensa= te for things like coriolis effects, mass, distance and charge. Dwight ________________________________ From: Eric Smith via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 22, 2024 5:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Eric Smith Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 8:08=E2=80=AFPM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital computer" > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > computer" - and what they might even look like. > I haven't looked for a book, but if you'll settle for Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_analyser --===============6866466333028216862==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Tue Jul 23 02:41:19 2024 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: Signetics 2519 .. (Apple I components) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 22:41:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0033683554770019177==" --===============0033683554770019177== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 9:05=E2=80=AFPM Igor via cctalk wrote: > Me and my buddy are building an Apple I replica, for now successfully. > Recently we have tested the video signal :) However, we are having big > problems (as you can imagine) with finding Signetics 2519 chips. I know > many ordered them in bulk, so I would be thankful for any help (we have US > address) or information. If more than one 2519B pop up for less than the crazy eBay prices, I'm interested. I have a Willegal Apple 1 board that I am still sourcing parts for (esp 2519B and 2504/1404) I am not worried about date codes or exact package styles or markings (N vs P etc.) I just want it to work. In the short term, I'm definitely willing to consider a board with 6x4557 programmable chip registers, but that still leaves the 8-pin shift registers. -ethan --===============0033683554770019177==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 05:07:07 2024 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 02:14:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2123553062413108103==" --===============2123553062413108103== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Rosenbloom started to make a relay computer, using pc boards, but found t= hat typical dip relays talk to each other ( leaky magnetic fields ) . Konrad Zuse made several attempts but making useful electromechanical memory = was his down fall. As a kid, I used a handful of radioshack relays to make a sequenced electrica= l lock. One had to enter four each four bit numbers to turn on the lock. Any = wrong number and you had to start over. I think that was first the first time= I did a logical design. You'd set the 4 toggle switches for the next number = in sequence and then enter it. Not a computer but then, I was just a kid. Dwight --===============2123553062413108103==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 23 08:55:26 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: Signetics 2519 .. (Apple I components) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 02:55:15 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8879992591849381494==" --===============8879992591849381494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-07-22 8:41 p.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 9:05=E2=80=AFPM Igor via cctalk wrote: >> Me and my buddy are building an Apple I replica, for now successfully. >> Recently we have tested the video signal :) However, we are having big >> problems (as you can imagine) with finding Signetics 2519 chips. I know >> many ordered them in bulk, so I would be thankful for any help (we have US >> address) or information. >=20 > If more than one 2519B pop up for less than the crazy eBay prices, I'm > interested. I have a Willegal Apple 1 board that I am still sourcing > parts for (esp 2519B and 2504/1404) >=20 > I am not worried about date codes or exact package styles or markings > (N vs P etc.) I just want it to work. In the short term, I'm > definitely willing to consider a board with 6x4557 programmable chip > registers, but that still leaves the 8-pin shift registers. >=20 > -ethan You can't find lose parts, but you still seem to be able to find kits https://unicornelectronics.com/Apple1/apple1.html Ben. --===============8879992591849381494==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 23 12:02:11 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 08:02:04 -0400 Message-ID: <62E132C8-6B68-496C-B9D8-00AAC803D364@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941EB7031A88CFE18831605A3A92=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2271371443894615314==" --===============2271371443894615314== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 22, 2024, at 10:30 PM, dwight via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > At the last vcf here in California a fellow, I forget the name, brought in = two tables that connected together, could generate a damped sine wave. It use= d mostly Manco erector like parts. It had some really great 0 backlash torque= multipliers. They had to be finely tuned so as to have almost 0 load on the = integrating disk. > WW2 fire control computers were used on US battle ships. They had to compen= sate for things like coriolis effects, mass, distance and charge. > Dwight There are Navy training films online (on YouTube, I think) describing in some= detail how those machines worked. paul --===============2271371443894615314==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 23 12:11:31 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 08:11:03 -0400 Message-ID: <35CD0878-8B50-4377-8226-5669A84ECC00@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941D4ED9A0C292FB3334DA5A3A92=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8999550020862399995==" --===============8999550020862399995== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 22, 2024, at 10:14 PM, dwight via cctalk w= rote: >=20 >=20 > Bob Rosenbloom started to make a relay computer, using pc boards, but found= that typical dip relays talk to each other ( leaky magnetic fields ) . > Konrad Zuse made several attempts but making useful electromechanical memor= y was his down fall. Clearly it an be done, considering Mark I as an example. It's also possible to get into a lot of trouble if you aren't skilled enough.= A beautiful example is the ARRA computer designed in Amsterdam around 1950.= It was a relay machine, asynchronous (no clock; the designers were theoreti= cal physicists who didnt know about such things). Perhaps the worst mistake = was that they used relays that for some reason had two coils, and figured the= y could use that to treat the relay as an OR gate. In the end, they got it to work well enough to run a program once, at the off= icial opening of the lab. To minimize risk they made it a random number gene= rator program. :-) But that was the end of it. So they hired a student of = Aiken and built an entirely different machine (with vacuum tube logic, no rel= ays), called ARRA II to make it appear to be just an upgraded ARRA. It's interesting that the designers of ARRA spoke about what they did, and we= re quite honest about their mistakes. Quite refreshing. Unfortunately that = narrative is in Dutch: "Computers ontwerpen, toen". https://ir.cwi.nl/pub/13= 534/13534D.pdf One of these days I should finish my translation of that lect= ure. paul --===============8999550020862399995==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Tue Jul 23 14:03:46 2024 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 11:03:36 -0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <62E132C8-6B68-496C-B9D8-00AAC803D364@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3367464006726125397==" --===============3367464006726125397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-07-23 9:02 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 22, 2024, at 10:30 PM, dwight via cctalk = wrote: >> >> At the last vcf here in California a fellow, I forget the name, brought in= two tables that connected together, could generate a damped sine wave. It us= ed mostly Manco erector like parts. It had some really great 0 backlash torqu= e multipliers. They had to be finely tuned so as to have almost 0 load on the= integrating disk. >> WW2 fire control computers were used on US battle ships. They had to compe= nsate for things like coriolis effects, mass, distance and charge. >> Dwight > There are Navy training films online (on YouTube, I think) describing in so= me detail how those machines worked. > > paul > > For the British and Commonwealth version search for "admiralty fire=20 control clock" or "admiralty fire control table" there seems to be a=20 fair bit of information about them online.=C2=A0 My father-in-law told me=20 that on one ship he was on in the RCN his action station was at the wind=20 input on an=C2=A0 admiralty fire control clock, this would likely have been=20 on the Tribal class destroyer HMCS Nookta. Paul. --===============3367464006726125397==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Jul 23 15:24:56 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: Signetics 2519 .. (Apple I components) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 10:24:47 -0500 Message-ID: <194f08cb-2d28-7b53-7f76-2ef1569ef366@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7792630743970850158==" --===============7792630743970850158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/22/24 21:41, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 9:05=E2=80=AFPM Igor via cctalk wrote: >> Me and my buddy are building an Apple I replica, for now successfully. >> Recently we have tested the video signal :) However, we are having big >> problems (as you can imagine) with finding Signetics 2519 chips. I know >> many ordered them in bulk, so I would be thankful for any help (we have US >> address) or information. I would think that a Xilinx 95xx CPLD could be programmed to=20 do this job.=C2=A0 The chip doesn't have a lot of pins.=C2=A0 The=20 XC95288XL has 288 FFs, so it can do the job (the 2519 has=20 240 FFs.) You could also probably use a small FPGA to do this as well.=20 They usually have more FFs per cell than CPLDs. Jon --===============7792630743970850158==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jul 23 15:34:35 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:34:18 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6075565382516376389==" --===============6075565382516376389== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 1:53 AM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 8:08 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital computer" > > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > > computer" - and what they might even look like. > > > > I haven't looked for a book, but if you'll settle for Wikipedia: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_analyser There is a book, although finding it might well be a problem, at least at a sensible price The title is 'The Differential Analyser' by 'J. Crank'. I have the 1947 edition on my bookshelf, it desribes the non-Meccano machine at Manchester University with photos and somewhat technical informtion on how it worked. -tony --===============6075565382516376389==-- From blstuart@bellsouth.net Tue Jul 23 16:31:20 2024 From: "Brian L. Stuart" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the 1968 how to build a working digital computer Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:31:33 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4046064540021397938==" --===============4046064540021397938== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 06:53:19PM -0600, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 8:08?PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > What I meant was that in the title of the book they use "digital computer" > > and I wonder if there was ever a book describing a mechanical "analog > > computer" - and what they might even look like. > > > > I haven't looked for a book, but if you'll settle for Wikipedia: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_analyser For those who might be interested, here's a small manual for the differential analyzer that was at the University of Pennsylvania. That machine was used primarily by the Army during WWII, but was made available for general use after the war. This booklet appears to have been printed in 1952. http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/eniac/other/diff-upenn.pdf Please excuse the scan quality. This was scanned from microfilm of the ENIAC trial exhibits. The pages with photographs were particularly hard to set an intensity curve that would mostly clear up the background but still show some detail in the photos. BLS --===============4046064540021397938==-- From gavin@learn.bio Tue Jul 23 18:10:06 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 13:09:46 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <35CD0878-8B50-4377-8226-5669A84ECC00@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8926849497957055975==" --===============8926849497957055975== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > It's interesting that the designers of ARRA spoke about what they did, and = were quite honest about their mistakes. Quite refreshing. Unfortunately tha= t narrative is in Dutch: "Computers ontwerpen, toen". https://ir.cwi.nl/pub/= 13534/13534D.pdf One of these days I should finish my translation of that le= cture. ChatGPT 4o did a passable job it looks like. --===============8926849497957055975== Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Translation.txt" MIME-Version: 1.0 Qy5TLiBTY2hvbHRlbg0KSW4gdGhlIHN1bW1lciBvZiAxOTQ3LCBJIHdhcyBvbiB2YWNhdGlvbiBp biBBbG1lbG8uIEVhcmxpZXIgdGhhdCB5ZWFyLCBvbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBkYXkgYXMgbXkgYmVzdCBm cmllbmQgYW5kIGluc2VwYXJhYmxlIHN0dWR5IG1hdGUsIEJyYWluIEphbiBMb29wc3RyYSwgSSBo YWQgc3VjY2Vzc2Z1bGx5IHBhc3NlZCB0aGUgcXVhbGlmeWluZyBleGFtcyBpbiBtYXRoZW1hdGlj cyBhbmQgcGh5c2ljcy4gVGhlIG1hbmRhdG9yeSBicmllZiBpbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24gdG8gdGhlIHRo cmVlIG1ham9yIGxhYm9yYXRvcmllc+KAlHRoZSBQaHlzaWNzIExhYm9yYXRvcnksIHRoZSBWLmQu IFdhYWxzIExhYm9yYXRvcnksIGFuZCB0aGUgWmVlbWFuIExhYm9yYXRvcnnigJR3YXMgYmVoaW5k IHVzLCBhbmQgd2Ugd2VyZSBhYm91dCB0byBzdGFydCBvdXIgZG9jdG9yYWwgc3R1ZGllcyBpbiBl eHBlcmltZW50YWwgcGh5c2ljcy4gRm9yIHR3byB5ZWFycywgd2Ugd291bGQgYmUgcHJhY3RpY2Fs bHkgd29ya2luZyBpbiBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIGFmb3JlbWVudGlvbmVkIGxhYm9yYXRvcmllcy4NCg0K T25lIGRheSwgSSByZWNlaXZlZCBhIHRlbGVncmFtIGluIEFsbWVsbyB3aXRoIGFwcHJveGltYXRl bHkgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBjb250ZW50OiAiV291bGQgeW91IGxpa2UgdG8gYXNzaXN0IGluIGJ1 aWxkaW5nIGFuIGF1dG9tYXRpYyBjYWxjdWxhdGluZyBtYWNoaW5lPyIgRm9yIGFzc3VyYW5jZSwg YW5vdGhlciBzZW50ZW5jZSB3YXMgYWRkZWQ6ICJNci4gTG9vcHN0cmEgaGFzIGFscmVhZHkgYWdy ZWVkLiIgVGhlIHNlbmRlciB3YXMgIlRoZSBNYXRoZW1hdGljYWwgQ2VudGVyLCIgYWNjb3JkaW5n IHRvIGZ1cnRoZXIgZGV0YWlscywgbG9jYXRlZCBpbiBBbXN0ZXJkYW0uIEkgYnJpZWZseSBjb25z aWRlcmVkIHdoZXRoZXIgbXkgZnJpZW5kIGhhZCBhbHJlYWR5IGNvbmZpcm1lZCBteSBjb29wZXJh dGlvbiwgYnV0IGluIHRoYXQgY2FzZSwgdGhlIHRlbGVncmFtIHNlZW1lZCB1bm5lY2Vzc2FyeSwg c28gSSBkaXNtaXNzZWQgdGhhdCBhc3N1bXB0aW9uLiBCb3RoIHNjZW5hcmlvcyB3ZXJlIGVxdWFs bHkgdmFsaWQ6IGJyZWFraW5nIHVwIG91ciBsb25nLXN0YW5kaW5nIGNvb3BlcmF0aW9uIChkYXRp bmcgYmFjayB0byB0aGUgYmVnaW5uaW5nIG9mIGhpZ2ggc2Nob29sKSB3YXMgc2ltcGx5IHVudGhp bmthYmxlLiBGdXJ0aGVybW9yZSwgdGhlIHRlbGVncmFtIGNvbnRhaW5lZCB0d28gYXR0cmFjdGl2 ZSBwb2ludHM6ICJhdXRvbWF0aWMgY2FsY3VsYXRpbmcgbWFjaGluZSIgYW5kICJNYXRoZW1hdGlj YWwgQ2VudGVyLCIgYm90aCBuZXcgY29uY2VwdHMgdG8gbWUuIEkgY291bGRu4oCZdCBkZWR1Y2Ug bW9yZSB0aGFuIHRoZSBuYW1lIHN1Z2dlc3RlZC4gU2luY2UgdGhlIGNvc3Qgb2YgYSB0ZWxlZ3Jh bSBleGNlZWRlZCBteSBidWRnZXQsIEkgcG9zdGVkIGEgcG9zdGNhcmQgd2l0aCBteSBhbnN3ZXIg YW5kIHJlc3VtZWQgbXkgdmFjYXRpb24gYWN0aXZpdGllcy4gVGhvc2Ugb2YgeW91IHdobyBoYXZl IGJlZW4gaW52b2x2ZWQgaW4gcmVjcnVpdGluZyBzdGFmZiB3aWxsLCBJIGFzc3VtZSwgYmUgZmls bGVkIHdpdGggYWRtaXJhdGlvbiBmb3IgdGhpcyB1bmlxdWUgZXhhbXBsZSBvZiByZWNydWl0bWVu dCB0YWN0aWNzOiBubyBmdXNzIGFib3V0IHNhbGFyeSBvciB3b3JraW5nIGhvdXJzLCBub3QgdG8g bWVudGlvbiBpcnJlbGV2YW50IGRldGFpbHMgbGlrZSBwZW5zaW9uLCB2YWNhdGlvbiwgYW5kIHNp Y2sgbGVhdmUuIEZvciB5b3VyIHJlYXNzdXJhbmNlLCBpdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgbWVudGlvbmVkIHRo YXQgSSB3YXMgaW5kZWVkIG9mZmVyZWQgYSBzYWxhcnkgYW5kIGJlbmVmaXRzLCB3aGljaCwgaW4g b3VyIGV5ZXMsIHdlcmUgcXVpdGUgZ2VuZXJvdXMuDQoNCkkgd2Fzbid0IHRvbyBjb25jZXJuZWQg YWJvdXQgaG93IHRoZSBuZXcgam9iIGNvdWxkIGJlIGNvbWJpbmVkIHdpdGggdGhlIG1hbmRhdG9y eSB0d28teWVhciBsYWJvcmF0b3J5IHdvcmsuIEkgYmVsaWV2ZWQgdGhhdCBhIHNvbHV0aW9uIGhh ZCB0byBiZSBmb3VuZCBmb3IgdGhhdC4gQW5kIGEgc29sdXRpb24gd2FzIGZvdW5kOiB0aGUgbGFi b3JhdG9yeSB3b3JrIGNvdWxkIGJlIHJlcGxhY2VkIGJ5IG91ciB3b3JrIGF0IHRoZSBNYXRoZW1h dGljYWwgQ2VudGVyLg0KDQpVcG9uIHJldHVybmluZyB0byBBbXN0ZXJkYW0sIEkgZm91bmQgb3V0 IHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmc6IHRoZSBNYXRoZW1hdGljYWwgQ2VudGVyIHdhcyBmb3VuZGVkIGluIDE5 NDYsIHdpdGggYSBnb2FsIHRoYXQgY291bGQgcm91Z2hseSBiZSBpbmZlcnJlZCBmcm9tIGl0cyBu YW1lLiBPbmUgb2YgdGhlIGRlcGFydG1lbnRzIHdhcyB0aGUgJ0NhbGN1bGF0aW9uIERlcGFydG1l bnQsJyB3aGVyZSBkaWxpZ2VudCB5b3VuZyBsYWRpZXMsIHVzaW5nIGhhbmQgY2FsY3VsYXRvcnPi gJRjb2xsb3F1aWFsbHkga25vd24gYXMgJ2NvZmZlZSBncmluZGVycyfigJRudW1lcmljYWxseSBz b2x2ZWQsIGZvciBleGFtcGxlLCBkaWZmZXJlbnRpYWwgZXF1YXRpb25zIChpbiBhIGxhdGVyIHN0 YWdlLCBzby1jYWxsZWQgJ2Jvb2trZWVwaW5nIG1hY2hpbmVzJyB3ZXJlIGFkZGVkIHRvIHRoZSBt YWNoaW5lcnkpLiBUaGUgcHJvYmxlbXMgZGVhbHQgd2l0aCB1c3VhbGx5IGNhbWUgZnJvbSBleHRl cm5hbCBjbGllbnRzLiBUaGUgaGVhZCBvZiB0aGUgQ2FsY3VsYXRpb24gRGVwYXJ0bWVudCB3YXMg RHIuIGlyLiBBLiB2YW4gV2lqbmdhYXJkZW4uIFN0b3JpZXMgYWJvdXQgYXV0b21hdGljIGNhbGN1 bGF0aW5nIG1hY2hpbmVzIGhhZCBhbHNvIHJlYWNoZWQgdGhlIG1hbmFnZW1lbnQgb2YgdGhlIE1h dGhlbWF0aWNhbCBDZW50ZXIsIGFuZCBpdCB3YXMgY2xlYXIgZnJvbSB0aGUgb3V0c2V0IHRoYXQg c3VjaCBhIHRvb2zigJRpZiB2aWFibGXigJRjb3VsZCBiZSBvZiBncmVhdCBpbXBvcnRhbmNlLCBl c3BlY2lhbGx5IGZvciB0aGUgQ2FsY3VsYXRpb24gRGVwYXJ0bWVudC4gSG93ZXZlciwgaXQgd2Fz IG5vdCBwb3NzaWJsZSB0byBidXkgdGhpcyBlcXVpcG1lbnQ7IHRob3NlIHdobyB3YW50ZWQgdG8g ZGlzY3VzcyBpdCBoYWQgdG8gYnVpbGQgaXQgdGhlbXNlbHZlcy4gQ29uc2VxdWVudGx5LCBpdCB3 YXMgZGVjaWRlZCB0byBlc3RhYmxpc2ggYSBzZXBhcmF0ZSBncm91cCB1bmRlciB0aGUgQ2FsY3Vs YXRpb24gRGVwYXJ0bWVudCwgd2l0aCB0aGUgdGFzayBvZiBjb25zdHJ1Y3RpbmcgYW4gYXV0b21h dGljIGNhbGN1bGF0aW5nIG1hY2hpbmUuIEdpdmVuIHRoZSBwcm9iYWJsZSBuYXR1cmUgb2YgdGhp cyBncm91cOKAmXMgYWN0aXZpdGllcywgaXQgd2FzIHNvbWV3aGF0IGFuIG9kZGl0eSB3aXRoaW4g dGhlIE1hdGhlbWF0aWNhbCBDZW50ZXIsIGRvb21lZCB0byBkaXNhcHBlYXIsIGlmIG5vdCBhZnRl ciBjb21wbGV0aW5nIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBtYWNoaW5lLCB0aGVuIGNlcnRhaW5seSBvbmNlIHRoaXMg a2luZCBvZiB0b29sIGJlY2FtZSBhIG5vcm1hbCB0cmFkZSBvYmplY3QuDQoNCldlIHdlcmUgbm90 IHRoZSBvbmx5IGdyb3VwIGluIHRoZSBOZXRoZXJsYW5kcyBpbnZvbHZlZCBpbiBjb25zdHJ1Y3Rp bmcgY2FsY3VsYXRpbmcgbWFjaGluZXMuIEFzIHdlIGxhdGVyIGRpc2NvdmVyZWQsIERyLiBXLkwu IHYuZC4gUG9lbCBoYWQgYWxyZWFkeSBzdGFydGVkIGNvbnN0cnVjdGluZyBhIG1hY2hpbmUgaW4g MTk0Ni4NCg0KT3VyIGRpcmVjdCBib3NzIHdhcyBWYW4gV2lqbmdhYXJkZW4sIGFuZCBvdXIgbmV3 bHkgZm9ybWVkIHR3by1tYW4gZ3JvdXAgd2FzIHRlbXBvcmFyaWx5IGhvdXNlZCBpbiBhIHJvb20g b2YgdGhlIFBoeXNpY3MgTGFib3JhdG9yeSBvbiBQbGFudGFnZSBNdWlkZXJncmFjaHQsIHdoZXJl IFByb2YuIENsYXkgd2FzIGluIGNoYXJnZS4gT3VyIGZpcnN0IHNpZ25pZmljYW50IGFjdCB3YXMg dGhlIHJlbW92YWwgb2YgYSBoaWdoLXZvbHRhZ2UgaW5zdGFsbGF0aW9uIGluIHRoZSByb29tLCBt dWNoIHRvIHRoZSBkaXNtYXkgb2YgQ2xheSwgd2hvIHdhcyBmb25kIG9mIHRoZSB0aGluZyBidXQg YXJyaXZlZCB0b28gbGF0ZSB0byBwcmV2ZW50IHRoZSBkaXNhc3Rlci4gVGhlbiB3ZSB0aG91Z2h0 IGl0IG1pZ2h0IGJlIHVzZWZ1bCB0byBlcXVpcCB0aGUgcm9vbSB3aXRoIHNvbWUgMjIwViBzb2Nr ZXRzLCBzbyB3ZSB3ZW50IHRvIFdhdGVybG9vcGxlaW4gYW5kIHJldHVybmVkIHdpdGggYSBzZWNv bmQtaGFuZCBoYW1tZXIsIHBsaWVycywgc2NyZXdkcml2ZXIsIHNvbWUgd2lyZSwgYW5kIGEgZmV3 IHdvb2RlbiAoaXQgd2FzIDE5NDchKSBzb2NrZXRzLiBJIHJlbWVtYmVyIHdvbmRlcmluZyB3aGV0 aGVyIHdlIGNvdWxkIHJlYXNvbmFibHkgc3VibWl0IHRoZSBleG9yYml0YW50IGJpbGwgY29ycmVz cG9uZGluZyB0byB0aGVzZSBwdXJjaGFzZXMuIE5vbmV0aGVsZXNzLCB3ZSBkaWQuDQoNCkFmdGVy IHByb3ZpZGluZyBvdXIgcm9vbSB3aXRoIHZvbHRhZ2UsIHdlIGZlbHQgYW4gdW5wbGVhc2FudCBz ZW5zYXRpb24gdGhhdCBzb21ldGhpbmcgd2FzIGV4cGVjdGVkIGZyb20gdXMsIHRob3VnaCB3ZSBo YWQgbm8gaWRlYSBob3cgdG8gc3RhcnQuIFdlIGRlY2lkZWQgdG8gY29uc3VsdCB0aGUgc3BhcnNl IGxpdGVyYXR1cmUuIFRoaXMgaW52ZXN0aWdhdGlvbiB5aWVsZGVkIHR3byBub3RhYmxlIGFydGlj bGVzOiBvbmUgYWJvdXQgdGhlIEVOSUFDLCBhIGRpZ2l0YWwgKGRlY2ltYWwpIGNvbXB1dGVyIGRl c2lnbmVkIGZvciBiYWxsaXN0aWMgcHJvYmxlbXMsIGFuZCBvbmUgYWJvdXQgYSBkaWZmZXJlbnRp YWwgYW5hbHl6ZXIsIGEgZGV2aWNlIGZvciBzb2x2aW5nIGRpZmZlcmVudGlhbCBlcXVhdGlvbnMs IHdoZXJlIHRoZSB2YWx1ZXMgb2YgdmFyaWFibGVzIHdlcmUgcmVwcmVzZW50ZWQgYnkgY29udGlu dW91c2x5IHZhcmlhYmxlIHBoeXNpY2FsIHF1YW50aXRpZXMsIGluIHRoaXMgY2FzZSwgdGhlIHJv dGF0aW9uIG9mIHNoYWZ0cy4gVGhlIGZpcnN0IGFydGljbGUgd2FzIGFib21pbmFibHkgd3JpdHRl biBhbmQgaW5jb21wcmVoZW5zaWJsZSwgYW5kIGFzIGZhciBhcyB3ZSB1bmRlcnN0b29kIGl0LCBp dCB3YXMgZGF1bnRpbmcsIG1lbnRpb25pbmcsIGZvciBpbnN0YW5jZSwgMTgsMDAwIHZhY3V1bSB0 dWJlcywgYSBudW1iZXIgd2Ugd2VyZSBzdXJlIG91ciBlbXBsb3llciBjb3VsZCBuZXZlciBhZmZv cmQuIFRoZSBzZWNvbmQgYXJ0aWNsZSAoYnkgVi4gQnVzaCksIG9uIHRoZSBvdGhlciBoYW5kLCB3 YXMgZXhjZWxsZW50bHkgd3JpdHRlbiBhbmQgZ2F2ZSB1cyB0aGUgaWRlYSB0aGF0IHN1Y2ggYSB0 aGluZyBpbmRlZWQgc2VlbWVkIGJ1aWxkYWJsZS4NCg0KVGhlcmVmb3JlLCBpdCBoYWQgdG8gYmUg YSBkaWZmZXJlbnRpYWwgYW5hbHl6ZXIsIGFuZCBhIG1lY2hhbmljYWwgb25lIGF0IHRoYXQuIEFz IHdlIG5vdyBrbm93LCB3ZSB3ZXJlIGJldHRpbmcgb24gdGhlIHdyb25nIGhvcnNlLCBidXQgZmly c3QsIHdlIGRpZG7igJl0IGtub3cgdGhhdCwgYW5kIHNlY29uZCwgaXQgZGlkbuKAmXQgcmVhbGx5 IG1hdHRlci4gSW5pdGlhbGx5LCB3ZSB3ZXJlIG5vdCB1cCB0byBlaXRoZXIgdGFzayBzaW1wbHkg YmVjYXVzZSB3ZSBsYWNrZWQgYW55IGVsZWN0cm9uaWMgdHJhaW5pbmcuIFdlIHdlcmUgc3VwcG9z ZWQgdG8gbWFzdGVyIGVsZWN0cmljaXR5IGFuZCBhdG9taWMgcGh5c2ljcywgYnV0IGhvdyBhIHZh Y3V1bSB0dWJlIGxvb2tlZCBpbnNpZGUgd2FzIGtub3duIG9ubHkgdG8gcmFkaW8gYW1hdGV1cnMg YW1vbmcgdXMsIGFuZCB3ZSBjZXJ0YWlubHkgd2VyZSBub3QuIE91ciBvd24gKHByZWxpbWluYXJ5 KSBwcmFjdGljdW0gY29udGFpbmVkLCB0byBteSBrbm93bGVkZ2UsIG5vIGV4cGVyaW1lbnQgaW4g d2hpY2ggYSB2YWN1dW0gdHViZSB3YXMgdGhlIG9iamVjdCBvZiBzdHVkeSwgYW5kIHRoZSBwaHlz aWNzIHByYWN0aWN1bSBmb3IgbWVkaWNhbCBzdHVkZW50cyAodGhlIHNvLWNhbGxlZCAnbWVkaWNh bCBwcmFjdGljdW0nKSwgd2hlcmUgd2UgaGFkIHN1cGVydmlzZWQgZm9yIGEgeWVhciBhcyBzdHVk ZW50IGFzc2lzdGFudHMsIGNvbnRhaW5lZCBleGFjdGx5IG9uZSBzdWNoIGV4cGVyaW1lbnQuIEl0 IGludm9sdmVkIGEgcmVjdGlmaWVyLCBkYXRlZCBieSBjb2xsZWFndWVzIHdpdGggc29tZSB0cmFp bmluZyBpbiBhcmNoYWVvbG9neSB0byBhYm91dCB0aGUgZW5kIG9mIHRoZSBGaXJzdCBXb3JsZCBX YXIuIFRoZSBhY2NvbXBhbnlpbmcgbWFudWFsIHByZXNjcmliZWQgdHVybmluZyBvbiB0aGUgJ3Bs YXRlIHZvbHRhZ2UnIG9ubHkgdGVucyBvZiBzZWNvbmRzIGFmdGVyIHRoZSBmaWxhbWVudCB2b2x0 YWdlLCBhbmQgdGhlIHN0dWRlbnRzIGhhZCB0byBhbnN3ZXIgd2h5IHRoaXMgaW5zdHJ1Y3Rpb24g d2FzIGdpdmVuLiBUaGUgYW5zd2VycyB3ZXJlIHNvbWV0aW1lcyB2ZXJ5IGFtdXNpbmcuIE9uZSBz dWNoIGFuc3dlciBJIHdvbuKAmXQgd2l0aGhvbGQgZnJvbSB5b3U6ICdUaGF0IGlzIHRvIGdpdmUg dGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgYSBjaGFuY2UgdG8gZ28gYXJvdW5kIG9uY2UuJw0KDQpPdXIgZmlyc3Qgb3du IGV4cGVyaW1lbnQgd2l0aCBhIHZhY3V1bSB0dWJlIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gb3V0IG9m IHBsYWNlIGluIGEgc2xhcHN0aWNrIG1vdmllLiBJdCBpbnZvbHZlZCBhIHRyaW9kZSwgaW4gd2hv c2UgYW5vZGUgY2lyY3VpdCB3ZSBpbmNsdWRlZCBhIG1lZ29obSByZXNpc3RvciBmb3Igc2FmZXR5 LiBTYWZlbHkgZW5zY29uY2VkIGJlaGluZCBhIHRpcHBlZC1vdmVyIHRhYmxlLCB3ZSB0dXJuZWQg b24gdGhlICdleHBlcmltZW50LicgVW5saWtlIGluIGEgc2xhcHN0aWNrIG1vdmllLCBub3RoaW5n IHNpZ25pZmljYW50IGhhcHBlbmVkIGluIG91ciBjYXNlLg0KDQpXaXRoIHRoZSBoZWxwIG9mIHNv bWUgdGV4dGJvb2tzLCBhbmQgbm90IHRvIGZvcmdldCB0aGUgJ3R1YmUgbWFudWFscycgb2Ygc29t ZSBtYW51ZmFjdHVyZXJzIG9mIHRoZXNlIHVzZWZ1bCBvYmplY3RzLCB3ZSBzb21ld2hhdCBicnVz aGVkIHVwIG9uIG91ciBlbGVjdHJvbmljIGtub3dsZWRnZSBhbmQgbWFuYWdlZCB0byBnZXQgYSBj b3VwbGUgb2YgY29tcG9uZW50cywgd2hpY2ggd2VyZSBzdXBwb3NlZCB0byBwbGF5IGEgcm9sZSBp biB0aGUgZGlmZmVyZW50aWFsIGFuYWx5emVyLCB0byBhIHN0YXRlIHdoZXJlIHRoZWlyIGZ1bmN0 aW9uIGNvdWxkIGF0IGxlYXN0IGJlIGd1ZXNzZWQuIFRoZXkgd2VyZSBhIG1vbWVudCBhbXBsaWZp ZXIgYW5kIGEgY3VydmUgZm9sbG93ZXIuIEhvdyB3ZSBzaG91bGQgcGVyZmVjdCB0aGVzZSBkZXZp Y2VzIHNvIHRoYXQgdGhleSB3b3VsZCB3b3JrIHJlbGlhYmx5IGFuZCBjb3VsZCBiZSBwcm9kdWNl ZCBpbiBzb21lIG51bWJlcnMgcmVtYWluZWQgYSBteXN0ZXJ5IHRvIHVzLiBUaGUgc29sdXRpb24g dG8gdGhpcyBteXN0ZXJ5IHdhcyBuZXZlciBmb3VuZC4gQ2VydGFpbmx5IG5vdCBieSBtZSwgYXMg YXJvdW5kIHRoaXMgdGltZSAoSmFudWFyeSAxOTQ4KSwgSSB3YXMgc3VtbW9uZWQgdG8gbWlsaXRh cnkgc2VydmljZSwgd2hpY2ggY291bGRu4oCZdCBkbyB3aXRob3V0IG1lLiBEdXJpbmcgdGhlIHR3 byB5ZWFycyBhbmQgZWlnaHQgbW9udGhzIG9mIG15IGFic2VuY2UgKEkgcmV0dXJuZWQgdG8gY2l2 aWxpYW4gbGlmZSBpbiBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMTk1MCksIGEgZHJhc3RpYyBjaGFuZ2UgdG9vayBwbGFj ZSwgd2hpY2ggSSBjb3VsZCBmb2xsb3cgdGhhbmtzIHRvIGZyZXF1ZW50IGNvbnRhY3RzIHdpdGgg TG9vcHN0cmEuDQoNCkZpcnN0LCB0aGUgTWF0aGVtYXRpY2FsIENlbnRlciwgaW5jbHVkaW5nIG91 ciBncm91cCwgbW92ZWQgdG8gdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgYnVpbGRpbmcgYXQgMm5kIEJvZXJoYWF2ZXN0 cmFhdCA0OS4gVGhlIGJ1aWxkaW5nIGxvb2tlZCBzb21ld2hhdCBkaWZmZXJlbnQgYmFjayB0aGVu LiBUaGUgZW50aXJlIGJ1aWxkaW5nIGhhZCBjb25zaXN0ZWQgb2YgdHdvIHN5bW1ldHJpY2FsbHkg YnVpbHQgc2Nob29scy4gRHVyaW5nIHRoZSB3YXIsIHRoZSBidWlsZGluZyB3YXMgcmVxdWlzaXRp b25lZCBieSB0aGUgR2VybWFucyBhbmQgdXNlZCBhcyBhIGdhcmFnZS4gSW4gdGhpcyBjb250ZXh0 LCB0aGUgb3V0ZXIgd2FsbCBvZiBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIGd5bW5hc2l1bXMgd2FzIGRlbW9saXNoZWQu IE5vdywgb25lIGhhbGYgd2FzIGFnYWluIGluIHVzZSBhcyBhIHNjaG9vbCwgYW5kIHRoZSBvdGhl ciBoYWxmLCBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIHRoZSBhdHRpYyBhYm92ZSBib3RoIGhhbHZlcywgd2FzIGFzc2ln bmVkIHRvIHRoZSBNYXRoZW1hdGljYWwgQ2VudGVyLiBUaGUgR2VybWFucyBoYWQgaW5zdGFsbGVk IGEgbXVuaXRpb25zIGxpZnQgaW4gdGhlIGJ1aWxkaW5nLiBUaGUgbGlmdCB3YXMgZ29uZSwgYnV0 IHRoZSBhc3NvY2lhdGVkIGxpZnQgc2hhZnQgd2FzIG5vdC4gRm9ydHVuYXRlbHksIGZldyBhbW9u ZyB1cyBoYWQgc3VpY2lkYWwgdGVuZGVuY2llcy4gVGhlIGZyb3N0ZWQgZ2xhc3MgaW4gdGhlIHRv aWxldCBkb29ycyAoYW4gb2xkIHNjaG9vbCEpIGhhZCBsb25nIHNpbmNlIGRpc2FwcGVhcmVkOyBm b3IgdGhlIHNha2Ugb2YgZGVjb3J1bSwgY3VydGFpbnMgd2VyZSBodW5nIGluIGZyb250IG9mIHRo ZW0uDQoNClZhbiBXaWpuZ2FhcmRlbiBjb3VsZCBvcGVyYXRlIGZvciBhIGxvbmcgdGltZSBvdmVy IGEgaG9sZSBpbiB0aGUgZmxvb3IgbmV4dCB0byBoaXMgZGVzaywgY29ycmVzcG9uZGluZyB3aXRo IGEgaG9sZSBpbiB0aGUgY2VpbGluZyBvZiB0aGUgcm9vbSBiZWxvdyAodW5vY2N1cGllZCkuIERl c3BpdGUgaGlzIGltcHJlc3NpdmUgY2lnYXIgY29uc3VtcHRpb24gYXQgdGhhdCB0aW1lLCBJIGRp ZG7igJl0IG5vdGljZSB0aGF0IHRoaXMgZ2lnYW50aWMgYXNodHJheSBldmVyIGZpbGxlZCB1cC4N Cg0KVGhlIG51bWJlciBvZiBlbXBsb3llZXMgaW4gb3VyIGdyb3VwIGhhZCBtZWFud2hpbGUgZXhw YW5kZWQgc29tZXdoYXQ7IGFsbCBpbiBhbGwsIHBlcmhhcHMgYXJvdW5kIGZpdmUuDQoNClRoZSBt b3N0IHNpZ25pZmljYW50IGNoYW5nZSBpbiB0aGUgc2l0dWF0aW9uIGNvbmNlcm5lZCBvdXIgZnVy dGhlciBwbGFucy4gVGhlIGlkZWEgb2YgYSBkaWZmZXJlbnRpYWwgYW5hbHl6ZXIgd2FzIGFiYW5k b25lZCBhcyBpdCBoYWQgYmVjb21lIGNsZWFyIHRoYXQgdGhlIGZ1dHVyZSBiZWxvbmdlZCB0byBk aWdpdGFsIGNvbXB1dGVycy4gVXBvbiBteSByZXR1cm4sIGEgc3Vic3RhbnRpYWwgcGFydCBvZiBz dWNoIGEgY29tcHV0ZXIsIHRoZSAnQScgKEF1dG9tYXRpc2NoZSBSZWxhaXMgUmVrZW5tYWNoaW5l IEFtc3RlcmRhbSksIGhhZCBhbHJlYWR5IGJlZW4gcmVhbGl6ZWQuIFRoZSBtYWluIGNvbXBvbmVu dHMgd2VyZSByZWxheXMgKGZvciB2YXJpb3VzIGxvZ2ljYWwgZnVuY3Rpb25zKSBhbmQgdHViZXMg KGZvciB0aGUgZmxpcC1mbG9wcyB0aGF0IGNvbXBvc2VkIHRoZSByZWdpc3RlcnMpLiBUaGUgcmVs YXlzIHdlcmUgU2llbWVucyBoaWdoLXNwZWVkIHJlbGF5cyAoc3dpdGNoaW5nIHRpbWVzIGluIHRo ZSBvcmRlciBvZiBhIGZldyBtaWxsaXNlY29uZHMpLCBwZXJzb25hbGx5IHJldHJpZXZlZCBieSBM b29wc3RyYSBhbmQgVmFuIFdpam5nYWFyZGVuIGZyb20gYW4gRW5nbGlzaCB3YXIgc3VycGx1cy4g VGhleSBjb250YWluZWQgYSBzaW5nbGUgY2hhbmdlb3ZlciBjb250YWN0IChicmVhay1iZWZvcmUt bWFrZSksIHdpdGggbWFrZSBhbmQgYnJlYWsgY29udGFjdHMgcmlnaWRseSBzZXQsIGFsdGhvdWdo IGFkanVzdGFibGUuIExvZ2ljYWxseSBhcHBlYWxpbmcgd2VyZSB0aGUgdHdvIHNlcGFyYXRlIGNv aWxzICh3aXRoIGFuIGVxdWFsIG51bWJlciBvZiB3aW5kaW5ncyk6IGJvdGggdGhlIGluY2x1c2l2 ZSBhbmQgZXhjbHVzaXZlIE9SIGZ1bmN0aW9ucyB3ZXJlIHdpdGhpbiByZWFjaC4gVGhlIHJlbGF5 cyB3ZXJlIG1vdW50ZWQgb24gb2N0YWwgYmFzZXMgYnkgdXMgYW5kIGxhdGVyIGVuY2xvc2VkIGlu IGEgcGxhc3RpYyBiYWcgdG8gcHJldmVudCBjb250YWN0IGNvbnRhbWluYXRpb24uDQoNClRoZXkg d2VyZSBhIGNvbnN0YW50IHNvdXJjZSBvZiBjb25jZXJuOiBzd2l0Y2hpbmcgdGltZXMgd2VyZSB1 bnJlbGlhYmxlIChlc3BlY2lhbGx5IHdoZW4gdGhlIGV4Y2x1c2l2ZSBPUiB3YXMgYXBwbGllZCkg YW5kIGNvbnRhY3QgZGVncmFkYXRpb24gb2NjdXJyZWQgbm9uZXRoZWxlc3MuIENsZWFuaW5nIHRo ZSBjb250YWN0cyAoJ3BvbGlzaGluZyB0aGUgcGlucycpIGFuZCByZXNldHRpbmcgdGhlIHN3aXRj aGluZyB0aW1lcyBiZWNhbWUgYSByZWd1bGFyIHBhc3RpbWUsIG9mdGVuIGludm9sdmluZyB0aGUg Z2lybHMgZnJvbSB0aGUgQ2FsY3VsYXRpb24gRGVwYXJ0bWVudC4gVGhlIHNldHRpbmcgd2FzIGRv bmUgb24gYSByZWxheSB0ZXN0ZXIsIGFuZCBkdXJpbmcgdGhpcyBzZXR0aW5nLCB0aGUgY29udGFj dHMgd2VyZSB1bmRlciBjb25zaWRlcmFibGUgdm9sdGFnZS4gQWx0aG91Z2ggYW4gaW5zdHJ1bWVu dCB3aXRoIGEgd29vZGVuIGhhbmRsZSB3YXMgdXNlZCBmb3Igc2V0dGluZywgdGhlIGN1cnNlcyBv Y2Nhc2lvbmFsbHkgdXR0ZXJlZCBzdWdnZXN0ZWQgaXQgd2FzIG5vdCBlbnRpcmVseSBlZmZlY3Rp dmUuDQoNCkZvciB0aGUgZmxpcC1mbG9wcywgZG91YmxlIHRyaW9kZXMgd2VyZSB1c2VkLCBmb2xs b3dlZCBieSBhIHBvd2VyIHR1YmUgdG8gZHJpdmUgYSBzdWZmaWNpZW50IG51bWJlciBvZiByZWxh eXMsIGFuZCBhIHBpbG90IGxhbXAgZm9yIHZpc3VhbCBpbmRpY2F0aW9uIG9mIHRoZSBmbGlwLWZs b3Agc3RhdGUuIFNpbmNlIHRoZSBBIGhhZCB0aHJlZSByZWdpc3RlcnMsIGVhY2ggMzAgYml0cyB3 aWRlLCB0aGVyZSBtdXN0IGhhdmUgYmVlbiBhYm91dCA5MCBwb3dlciB0dWJlcywgYW5kIHdlIG5v dGVkIHdpdGggZGlzbWF5IHRoYXQgOTAgcG93ZXIgdHViZXMgb3NjaWxsYXRlZCBleGNlbGxlbnRs eS4gQWZ0ZXIgc29tZSB0aW1lLCB3ZSBrbmV3IGV4YWN0bHkgd2hpY2ggcGlsb3QgbGFtcCBzb2Nr ZXQgbmVlZGVkIGEgMi1tZXRlciB3aXJlIHRvIGVsaW1pbmF0ZSB0aGUgb3NjaWxsYXRpb24uDQoN CkF0IGEgbGF0ZXIgc3RhZ2UsIGEgZHJ1bSAoaW5pdGlhbGx5LCB0aGUgaW5zdHJ1Y3Rpb25zIHdl cmUgcmVhZCBmcm9tIGEgcGx1Z2JvYXJkIHZpYSBzdGVwIHN3aXRjaGVzKSBmdW5jdGlvbmVkIGFz IG1lbW9yeTsgZm9yIGlucHV0IGFuZCBvdXRwdXQsIGEgdGFwZSByZWFkZXIgKHBhcGVyLCBhcyBt YWduZXRpYyB0YXBlIHdhcyB5ZXQgdG8gYmUgaW52ZW50ZWQpIGFuZCBhIHRlbGVwcmludGVyIHdl cmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlLiBBIHdvb2RlbiBraXRjaGVuIHRhYmxlIHNlcnZlZCBhcyB0aGUgY29udHJv bCBkZXNrLg0KDQpSZWxheXMgYW5kIHR1YmVzIG1pZ2h0IGhhdmUgYmVlbiB0aGUgbWFpbiBsb2dp Y2FsIGJ1aWxkaW5nIGJsb2NrcywgYnV0IHRoZXkgd2VyZSBjZXJ0YWlubHkgbm90IHRoZSBvbmx5 IG9uZXMuIFdpdGhvdXQgdG9vIG11Y2ggZXhhZ2dlcmF0aW9uLCBpdCBjYW4gYmUgc2FpZCB0aGF0 IHRoZSBBIHdhcyBhIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gb2Ygd2hhdCB0aGUgZWxlY3Ryb25pYyBpbmR1c3RyeSBo YWQgdG8gb2ZmZXIsIGEgY2lyY3Vtc3RhbmNlIGdyZWF0bHkgY29udHJpYnV0ZWQgdG8gYnkgb3Vy IGZyZXF1ZW50IHRyaXBzIHRvIEVpbmRob3ZlbiwgZnJvbSB3aGVyZSB3ZSBvZnRlbiByZXR1cm5l ZCB3aXRoIHNvbWUgJ3NhbXBsZSBpdGVtcy4nIE9uIHRoZSB0cmFpbiBiYWNrLCB3ZSBmaXJzdCBy ZW1pbmlzY2VkIGFib3V0IHRoZSBleGNlbGxlbnQgbHVuY2ggd2UgaGFkIGVuam95ZWQgYW5kIHRo ZW4gaW52ZW50b3JpZWQgdG8gZGV0ZXJtaW5lIGlmIHdlIGJyb3VnaHQgYmFjayBlbm91Z2ggdG8g Y292ZXIgdGhlIHRyYXZlbCBleHBlbnNlcy4gVGhpcyBleGFtaW5hdGlvbiB1c3VhbGx5IHR1cm5l ZCBvdXQgcG9zaXRpdmUuDQoNCkl0IHNob3VsZCBiZSBub3RlZCB0aGF0IHRoZSBBIHdhcyBtYWlu bHkgbm90IGNsb2NrZWQuIEVhY2ggcHJpbWl0aXZlIG9wZXJhdGlvbiB3YXMgZm9sbG93ZWQgYnkg YW4gJ29wZXJhdGlvbiBjb21wbGV0ZScgc2lnbmFsLCB3aGljaCBpbiB0dXJuIHN0YXJ0ZWQgdGhl IG5leHQgb3BlcmF0aW9uLiBJdCBpcyBzb21ld2hhdCBhbXVzaW5nIHRoYXQgbm93YWRheXMgc3Vj aCBhIHN5c3RlbSBpcyBzb21ldGltZXMgcHJvcG9zZWQgYWdhaW4gKGJ1dCBob3BlZnVsbHkgbW9y ZSByZWxpYWJsZSB0aGFuIHdoYXQgd2UgcHJvZHVjZWQpIHRvIHByZXZlbnQgZ2xpdGNoIHByb2Js ZW1zLCBhIGNvbmNlcHQgd2Ugd2VyZSBub3QgZmFtaWxpYXIgd2l0aCBhdCB0aGUgdGltZS4NCg0K TmVlZGxlc3MgdG8gc2F5LCB0aGUgQSB3YXMgc28gdW5yZWxpYWJsZSB0aGF0IGxpdHRsZSBwcm9k dWN0aXZlIHdvcmsgY291bGQgYmUgZG9uZSB3aXRoIGl0LiBIb3dldmVyLCBpdCB3YXMgb2ZmaWNp YWxseSBwdXQgaW50byB1c2UuIEJ5IG1pZC0xOTUyLCB0aGlzIHdhcyB0aGUgY2FzZS4gSGlzIEV4 Y2VsbGVuY3kgRi5KLiBUaC4gUnV0dGVuLCB0aGVuIE1pbmlzdGVyIG9mIEVkdWNhdGlvbiwgYXBw ZWFyZWQgYXQgb3VyIHBsYWNlIGFuZCBvZmZpY2lhbGx5IGluYXVndXJhdGVkIHRoZSBBIHdpdGgg c29tZSBjZXJlbW9ueS4gRm9yIHRoaXMgcHVycG9zZSwgd2UgY2FyZWZ1bGx5IGNob3NlIGEgZGVt b25zdHJhdGlvbiBwcm9ncmFtIHdpdGggbWluaW1hbCByaXNrIG9mIGZhaWx1cmUsIG5hbWVseSBw cm9kdWNpbmcgcmFuZG9tIG51bWJlcnMgw6AgbGEgRmlib25hY2NpLiBXZSBoYWQgcmVoZWFyc2Vk IHRoZSBkZW1vbnN0cmF0aW9uIHNvIG9mdGVuIHRoYXQgd2Uga25ldyBsYXJnZSBwYXJ0cyBvZiB0 aGUgb3V0cHV0IHNlcXVlbmNlIGJ5IGhlYXJ0LCBhbmQgd2UgYnJlYXRoZWQgYSBzaWdoIG9mIHJl bGllZiB3aGVuIHdlIGZvdW5kIHRoYXQgdGhlIG1hY2hpbmUgcHJvZHVjZWQgdGhlIGNvcnJlY3Qg b3V0cHV0LiBJbiBoaW5kc2lnaHQsIEkgYW0gc3VycHJpc2VkIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBkZW1vbnN0cmF0 aW9uIGRpZCBub3QgZWFybiB1cyBhIHJlcHJpbWFuZCBmcm9tIGhpZ2hlci11cHMuIEltYWdpbmU6 IHlvdSBhcmUgdGhlIE1pbmlzdGVyIG9mIEVkdWNhdGlvbiwgdGhvcm91Z2hseSBicmllZmVkIGF0 IHRoZSBEZXBhcnRtZW50IGFib3V0IHRoZSB3b25kZXJzIG9mIHRoZSB1cGNvbWluZyBjb21wdXRp bmcgbWFjaGluZXM7IHlvdSBhdHRlbmQgdGhlIG9mZmljaWFsIGluYXVndXJhdGlvbiwgYW5kIHlv dSBhcmUgZ3JlZXRlZCBieSBhIGdyb3VwIGV4cGxhaW5pbmcgdGhhdCwgdG8gZGVtb25zdHJhdGUg dGhlc2Ugd29uZGVycywgdGhlIG1hY2hpbmUgd2lsbCBzb29uIHByb2R1Y2UgYSBzZXJpZXMgb2Yg cmFuZG9tIG51bWJlcnMuIFdoZW4gdGhlIG1vbWVudCBhcnJpdmVzLCB0aGV5IHRlbGwgeW91IHdp dGggYmVhbWluZyBmYWNlcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBtYWNoaW5lIHdvcmtzIGV4Y2VsbGVudGx5LiBJIHdv dWxkIGhhdmUgYXNzdW1lZCB0aGF0LCBpZiBub3Qgd2l0aCB0aGUgdHJ1dGgsIGF0IGxlYXN0IHdp dGggbWUsIHRoZXkgd2VyZSBoYXZpbmcgYSBiaXQgb2YgZnVuLiBIaXMgRXhjZWxsZW5jeSByZW1h aW5lZCBmcmllbmRseSwgYSByZW1hcmthYmxlIGRpc3BsYXkgb2Ygc2VsZi1jb250cm9sLg0KDQpU aGUgZW1vdGlvbnMgc3RpcnJlZCBieSB0aGlzIGZlc3Rpdml0eSB3ZXJlIGFwcGFyZW50bHkgdG9v IG11Y2ggZm9yIHRoZSBBLiBBZnRlciB0aGUgb3BlbmluZywgYXMgZmFyIGFzIEkgcmVjYWxsLCBu byByZWFzb25hYmxlIGFtb3VudCBvZiB1c2VmdWwgd29yayB3YXMgZXZlciBwcm9kdWNlZC4gQWZ0 ZXIgc29tZSB0aW1lLCB0b3dhcmRzIHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgMTk1Miwgd2UgZGVjaWRlZCB0byBnaXZl IHVwIHRoZSBBUlJBIGFzIGEgaG9wZWxlc3MgY2FzZSBhbmQgZG8gc29tZXRoaW5nIGVsc2UuIFRo ZXJlIHdhcyBhbm90aGVyIHJlYXNvbiBmb3IgdGhpcyBkZWNpc2lvbi4gVGhlIHllYXIgMTk1MiBz aG91bGQgYmUgY29uc2lkZXJlZCBhbiBleGNlbGxlbnQgaGFydmVzdCB5ZWFyIGZvciB0aGUgTWF0 aGVtYXRpY2FsIENlbnRlciBzdGFmZjogaW4gTWFyY2ggYW5kIE5vdmVtYmVyIG9mIHRoYXQgeWVh ciwgRWRzZ2VyIERpamtzdHJhIGFuZCBHZXJyaXQgQmxhYXV3IHJlc3BlY3RpdmVseSBhcHBlYXJl ZCBvbiB0aGUgc2NlbmUuIE9mIHRoZXNlIHR3bywgdGhlIGxhdHRlciBpcyBvZiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFy IGltcG9ydGFuY2UgZm9yIHRvZGF5J3Mgc3RvcnkgYW5kIG91ciBmdXR1cmUgbmFycmF0aXZlLiBH ZXJyaXQgaGFkIHdvcmtlZCBvbiBjb21wdXRlcnMgYXQgSGFydmFyZCwgdW5kZXIgdGhlIHN1cGVy dmlzaW9uIG9mIEhvd2FyZCBBaWtlbi4gSGUgaGFkIGFsc28gd3JpdHRlbiBhIGRpc3NlcnRhdGlv biB0aGVyZSBhbmQgd2FzIHdpbGxpbmcgdG8gbGVuZCBoaXMga25vd2xlZGdlIGFuZCBpbnNpZ2h0 IHRvIHRoZSBNYXRoZW1hdGljYWwgQ2VudGVyLiBXZSB3ZXJlIG5vdCB2ZXJ5IGNvbXBsaWFudCBi b3lzIGF0IHRoYXQgdGltZS4gTGV0IG1lIHB1dCBpdCB0aGlzIHdheTogd2Ugd2VyZSBhd2FyZSB0 aGF0IHdlIGRpZCBub3QgaGF2ZSBhIG1vbm9wb2x5IG9uIHdpc2RvbSwgYnV0IHdlIGZvdW5kIGl0 IGhpZ2hseSB1bmxpa2VseSB0aGF0IGFueW9uZSBlbHNlIHdvdWxkIGtub3cgYmV0dGVyLiBUaGVy ZWZvcmUsIHRoZSAnbmV3Y29tZXInIHdhcyB2aWV3ZWQgd2l0aCBzb21lIHN1c3BpY2lvbi4gR2Vy cml04oCZcyBhY2hpZXZlbWVudCB3YXMgYWxsIHRoZSBncmVhdGVyIHdoZW4gaGUgY29udmluY2Vk IHVzIGluIGEgbGVjdHVyZSBvZiB0aGUgdmFsaWRpdHkgb2Ygd2hhdCBoZSBwcm9wb3NlZC4gQW5k IHRoYXQgd2FzIHF1aXRlIHNvbWV0aGluZzogYSBjbG9ja2VkIG1hY2hpbmUsIHVuaWZvcm0gYnVp bGRpbmcgYmxvY2tzIGNvbnNpc3Rpbmcgb2YgdmFyaW91cyB0eXBlcyBvZiBBTkQvT1IgZ2F0ZXMg YW5kIGNvcnJlc3BvbmRpbmcgYW1wbGlmaWVycywgcGx1Z2dhYmxlIChhbmQgdGh1cyBpbnRlcmNo YW5nZWFibGUpIHVuaXRzLCBhIG5lYXQgZGVzaWduIG1ldGhvZCBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgdXNlIG9m IHR3byBhbHRlcm5hdGluZywgc2VwYXJhdGUgc2VyaWVzIG9mIGNsb2NrIHB1bHNlcywgYW5kIHBy b3BlciBkb2N1bWVudGF0aW9uLg0KDQpXZSB3ZXJlIHNvbGQgb24gdGhlIHBsYW4gYW5kIGdvdCB0 byB3b3JrLiBBIHNtYWxsIGRpZmZpY3VsdHkgaGFkIHRvIGJlIG92ZXJjb21lOiB3aGF0IHdlIGlu dGVuZGVkIHRvIGRvIHdhcyBvYnZpb3VzbHkgbm90aGluZyBtb3JlIG9yIGxlc3MgdGhhbiBidWls ZGluZyBhIG5ldyBtYWNoaW5lLCBhbmQgdGhpcyBmYWN0IGVuY291bnRlcmVkIHNvbWUgcG9saXRp Y2FsIGRpZmZpY3VsdGllcy4gVGhlIHNvbHV0aW9uIHRvIHRoaXMgcHJvYmxlbSB3YXMgc2ltcGxl OiBmb3JtYWxseSwgaXQgd291bGQgYmUgYSAncmV2aXNpb24nIG9mIHRoZSBBLiBUaGUgbmV3IG1h Y2hpbmUgd2FzIHRodXMgYWxzbyBjYWxsZWQgQSAod2Ugc2hhbGwgaGVuY2Vmb3J0aCBzcGVhayBv ZiBBIElJKSwgYnV0IHRoZSBkb3VibGUgYm90dG9tIHdhcyBwZXJmZWN0bHkgY2xlYXIgdG8gYW55 IHZpc2l0b3I6IHRoZSBmcmFtZXMgb2YgdGhlIHR3byBtYWNoaW5lcyB3ZXJlIGRpc3RpbmN0bHkg c2VwYXJhdGVkLCB3aXRoIG5vIGNvbm5lY3Rpbmcgd2lyZSBiZXR3ZWVuIHRoZW0uDQoNCkZvciB0 aGUgQU5EL09SIGdhdGVzLCB3ZSBkZWNpZGVkIHRvIHVzZSBzZWxlbml1bSBkaW9kZXMuIFRoZXNl IHVzdWFsbHkgYXJyaXZlZCBpbiB0aGUgZm9ybSBvZiBzZWxlbml1bSByZWN0aWZpZXJzLCBhIHNv cnQgb2YgZmlyZWNyYWNrZXJzIG9mIHZhcnlpbmcgc2l6ZXMsIHdoaWNoIHdlIGRpc21hbnRsZWQg dG8gZXh0cmFjdCB0aGUgaW5kaXZpZHVhbCByZWN0aWZpZXIgcGxhdGVzLCBhYm91dCBoYWxmIHRo ZSBkaWFtZXRlciBvZiBhIG1vZGVybi1kYXkgZGltZS4gVGhlIGFzc2VtYmx54oCUdGhlIHNlbGVu aXVtIHBsYXRlcyBjb3VsZG4ndCB0b2xlcmF0ZSBoaWdoIHRlbXBlcmF0dXJlcywgc28gc29sZGVy aW5nIHdhcyBvdXQgb2YgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9u4oCUd2FzIGFzIGZvbGxvd3M6IGhvbGVzIHdlcmUg ZHJpbGxlZCBpbiBhIHRoaWNrIHBpZWNlIG9mIHBlcnRpbmF4LiBPbmUgZW5kIG9mIHRoZSBob2xl IHdhcyBzZWFsZWQgd2l0aCBhIG1ldGFsIHBsdWc7IGludG8gdGhlIHJlc3VsdGluZyBwb3QgaG9s ZSB3ZW50IGEgc3ByaW5nIGFuZCBhIHNlbGVuaXVtIHBsYXRlLCBhbmQgZmluYWxseSwgdGhlIG90 aGVyIGVuZCBvZiB0aGUgaG9sZSB3YXMgYWxzbyBzZWFsZWQgd2l0aCBhIG1ldGFsIHBsdWcuIEZv ciBjb25uZWN0aW5nIHRoZSBwbHVncywgd2UgdGhvdWdodCB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIHNpbHZlciBwYWlu dCB3YXMgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUsIGFuZCBzb29uIHdlIHdlcmUgYnVzeSBwYWludGluZyBvdXIgZmly c3Qgb3duIGNpcmN1aXRzLiBTb21lIHRpbWUgbGF0ZXIsIHdlIGhhZCBwbGVudHkgb2YgcmVhc29u cyB0byBjdXJzZSB0aGlzIGRlY2lzaW9uLiBUaGUgcmVsaWFiaWxpdHkgb2YgdGhlc2UgY29ubmVj dGlvbnMgd2FzIHBvb3IsIHRvIHB1dCBpdCBtaWxkbHksIGFuZCBhcm91bmQgdGhpcyB0aW1lLCB0 aGUgJ2hpZ2gtZnJlcXVlbmN5IGhhbW1lcicgbXVzdCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gaW52ZW50ZWQ6IHdlIHRv b2sgYSBzbWFsbCBoYW1tZXIgd2l0aCBhIHJ1YmJlciBoZWFkIGFuZCByYXR0bGVkIGl0IGFsb25n IHRoZSBoYW5kbGVzIG9mIHRoZSB1bml0cywgbGlrZSBhIGNoaWxkIHJ1bm5pbmcgaXRzIGhhbmQg YWxvbmcgdGhlIHJhaWxpbmdzIG9mIGEgZmVuY2UuIEl0IHByb3ZlZCBhbiBlZmZlY3RpdmUgbWVh bnMgdG8gdHVybiBpbnRlcm1pdHRlbnQgaW50ZXJydXB0aW9ucyBpbnRvIHBlcm1hbmVudCBvbmVz LiBJIHdvbid0IGhhemFyZCBhIGd1ZXNzIGFzIHRvIGhvdyBtYW55IGludGVycnVwdGlvbnMgd2Ug aW50cm9kdWNlZCBpbiB0aGlzIHdheS4gQXQgYSBsYXRlciBzdGFnZSwgdGhlIHNlbGVuaXVtIGRp b2RlcyB3ZXJlIHJlcGxhY2VkIGJ5IGdlcm1hbml1bSBkaW9kZXMsIHdoaWNoIHdlcmUgc2ltcGx5 IHNvbGRlcmVkLg0KDQpUaGUgQU5EL09SIGdhdGVzIHdlcmUgZm9sbG93ZWQgYnkgYSB0cmlvZGUg YW1wbGlmaWVyIGFuZCBhIGNhdGhvZGUgZm9sbG93ZXIuIEEgSUkgYWxzbyBnb3QgYSBkcnVtIGFu ZCBhIHRhcGUgcmVhZGVyLiBGb3Igb3V0cHV0LCBhbiBlbGVjdHJpYyB0eXBld3JpdGVyIHdhcyBp bnN0YWxsZWQsIHdpdGggMTYga2V5cyBvcGVyYWJsZSBieSBwbGFjaW5nIG1hZ25ldHMgdW5kZXJu ZWF0aCB0aGVtLiBUaGUgZGVjb2RpbmcgdHJlZSBmb3IgdGhlc2UgbWFnbmV0cyBwcm92aWRlZCB1 cyB3aXRoIHRoZSBtZWFucyB0byBidWlsZCBhbiBlY2hvLWNoZWNrLCBhbmQgRGlqa3N0cmEgZmFi cmljYXRlZCBhIHJvdXRpbmUgd2hlcmUsIHNpbXVsdGFuZW91c2x5IHdpdGggcHJpbnRpbmcgYSBu dW1iZXIsIHRoZSBzYW1lIG51bWJlciAoaWYgYWxsIHdlbnQgd2VsbCkgd2FzIHJlY29uc3RydWN0 ZWQuIEkgYXNzdW1lIHdlIHRodXMgaGFkIG9uZSBvZiB0aGUgZmlyc3QgZnVsbHkgY29udHJvbGxl ZCBwcmludCByb3V0aW5lcy4gQ2hhcmFjdGVyaXN0aWMgb2YgQSBJSeKAmXMgc3BlZWQgd2FzIHRo ZSB0aW1lIGZvciBhbiBhZGRpdGlvbjogMjAgbXMgKHRoZSB0aW1lIG9mIGEgZHJ1bSByb3RhdGlv bikuDQoNCkEgSUkgY2FtZSBpbnRvIG9wZXJhdGlvbiBpbiBEZWNlbWJlciAxOTUzLCB0aGlzIHRp bWUgd2l0aG91dCBtaW5pc3RlcmlhbCBhc3Npc3RhbmNlLCBidXQgaXQgcGVyZm9ybWVkIHNpZ25p ZmljYW50bHkgbW9yZSB1c2VmdWwgd29yayB0aGFuIGl0cyBwcmVkZWNlc3NvciwgZGVzcGl0ZSB0 aGUgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGRpZmZpY3VsdGllcyBvdXRsaW5lZCBhYm92ZS4NCg0KVGhlIGRlc2lnbiBw aGFzZSBvZiBBIElJIG1hcmtzIGZvciBtZSB0aGUgcG9pbnQgd2hlcmUgY29tcHV0ZXIgZGVzaWdu IGJlZ2FuIHRvIGJlY29tZSBhIHByb2Zlc3Npb24uIFRoaXMgd2FzIGdyZWF0bHkgYWlkZWQgYnkg dGhlIGludHJvZHVjdGlvbiBvZiB1bmlmb3JtIGJ1aWxkaW5nIGJsb2NrcywgZGVzY3JpYmFibGUg aW4gYSBtdWx0aWRpbWVuc2lvbmFsIGJpbmFyeSBzdGF0ZSBzcGFjZSwgbWFraW5nIHRoZSB1c2Ug b2YgdG9vbHMgbGlrZSBCb29sZWFuIGFsZ2VicmEgbWVhbmluZ2Z1bC4gV2UgZmlndXJlZCBvdXQg aG93IHRvIHByb3ZpZGUgQVJSQSBJSSB3aXRoIHNpZ25lZCBtdWx0aXBsaWNhdGl2ZSBhZGRpdGlv biBmb3IgaW50ZWdlcnMgKGkuZS4sIGFuIG9wZXJhdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgZm9ybSAoQSxTKSA6PSAo TSkgKiAowrFTJykgKyAoQSksIGZvciBhbGwgc2lnbiBjb21iaW5hdGlvbnMgb2YgKEEpLCAoUyks IGFuZCAoTSkgYmVmb3JlIGFuZCBvZiB0aGUgcmVzdWx0KSwgZGVzcGl0ZSB0aGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0 IEFSUkEgSUkgaGFkIG9ubHkgYSBjb3VudGVyIGFzIHdpZGUgYXMgYSByZWdpc3Rlci4gQXMgZmFy IGFzIEkgY2FuIHJlY2FsbCwgdGhpcyB3YXMgdGhlIGZpcnN0IHRpbWUgSSBkZXZvdGVkIGEgZG9j dW1lbnQgdG8gcHJvdmluZyB0aGF0IHRoZSBwcm9wb3NlZCBzb2x1dGlvbiB3YXMgY29ycmVjdC4g VW5kb3VidGVkbHksIHRoZSBwcm9vZiB3YXMgaW4gYSBmb3JtIEkgd291bGQgbm90IGJlIHNhdGlz ZmllZCB3aXRoIHRvZGF5LCBidXQgc3RpbGwuLi4gSXQgd29ya2VkIGFzIGludGVuZGVkLCBhbmQg eW91IGNhbiBpbWFnaW5lIG15IGFtdXNlbWVudCB3aGVuLCB5ZWFycyBsYXRlciwgSSBsZWFybmVk IGZyb20gYSBGcmVuY2ggYm9vayBvbiBjb21wdXRlcnMgdGhhdCB0aGlzIHByb2JsZW0gd2FzIGNv bnNpZGVyZWQgdW5zb2x2YWJsZS4NCg0KSW4gTWF5IDE5NTQsIHdvcmsgYmVnYW4gb24gYSAoc2xp Z2h0bHkgbW9kaWZpZWQpIGNvcHkgb2YgQVJSQSBJSSwgdGhlIEZFUlRBIChGb2trZXIncyBGaXJz dCBDYWxjdWxhdGluZyBNYWNoaW5lIFR5cGUgQSksIGludGVuZGVkIGZvciBGb2trZXIuIFRoZSBG RVJUQSB3YXMgaGFuZGVkIG92ZXIgdG8gRm9ra2VyIGluIEFwcmlsIDE5NTUuIFRoaXMgZW50aXJl IGFmZmFpciB3YXMgbWFpbmx5IGhhbmRsZWQgYnkgQmxhYXV3IGFuZCBEaWprc3RyYS4gU2hvcnRs eSB0aGVyZWFmdGVyLCBCbGFhdXcgbGVmdCB0aGUgc2VydmljZSBvZiB0aGUgTWF0aGVtYXRpY2Fs IENlbnRlci4NCg0KSW4gSnVuZSAxOTU2LCB0aGUgQVJNQUMgKEF1dG9tYXRpYyBDYWxjdWxhdGlu ZyBNYWNoaW5lIE1hdGhlbWF0aWNhbCBDZW50ZXIpLCBzdWNjZXNzb3IgdG8gQSBJSSwgd2FzIHB1 dCBpbnRvIG9wZXJhdGlvbiwgc2V2ZXJhbCBkb3plbiB0aW1lcyBmYXN0ZXIgdGhhbiBpdHMgcHJl ZGVjZXNzb3IuIERlc2lnbiBhbmQgY29uc3RydWN0aW9uIHRvb2sgYWJvdXQgMcK9IHllYXJzLiBX b3J0aCBtZW50aW9uaW5nIGlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIEFSTUFDIGZpcnN0IHVzZWQgY29yZXMsIGFsYmVp dCBvbiBhIG1vZGVzdCBzY2FsZSAoaW4gdG90YWwgNjQgd29yZHMgb2YgMzQgYml0cyBlYWNoLCBJ IGJlbGlldmUpLiBGb3IgZ2VuZXJhdGluZyB0aGUgaG9yaXpvbnRhbCBhbmQgdmVydGljYWwgc2Vs ZWN0aW9uIGN1cnJlbnRzIGZvciB0aGVzZSBjb3Jlcywgd2UgdXNlZCBsYXJnZSBjb3Jlcy4gVG8g ZHJpdmUgdGhlc2UgbGFyZ2UgY29yZXMsIGhvd2V2ZXIsIHRoZXkgaGFkIHRvIGJlIGVxdWlwcGVk IHdpdGggYSBjb2lsIHdpdGggYSByZWFzb25hYmxlIG51bWJlciBvZiB3aW5kaW5ncy4gRXh0ZW5z aXZlIGVtYnJvaWRlcnkgd29yayBkaWRu4oCZdCBzZWVtIGFwcGVhbGluZyB0byB1cywgc28gdGhl IGZvbGxvd2luZyBzb2x1dGlvbiB3YXMgZGV2aXNlZDogYSAoZmFpcmx5IGRlZXApIHJpbSB3YXMg dHVybmVkIGZyb20gdHJhbnNwYXJlbnQgcGxhc3RpYy4gVGh1cywgd2Ugbm93IGhhZCB0d28gcmlu Z3M6IHRoZSByaW0gYW5kIHRoZSBjb3JlLiBUaGUgcmltIHdhcyBzYXdlZCBhdCBvbmUgcGxhY2Us IGFuZCB0aGUgZmxleGliaWxpdHkgb2YgdGhlIG1hdGVyaWFsIG1hZGUgaXQgcG9zc2libGUgdG8g aW50ZXJsb2NrIHRoZSB0d28gcmluZ3MuIFRoZW4sIHRoZSBjb2lsIHdhcyBhcHBsaWVkIHRvIHRo ZSByaW0gYnkgcm90YXRpbmcgaXQgZnJvbSB0aGUgb3V0c2lkZSB1c2luZyBhIHJ1YmJlciB3aGVl bC4gVGhlIHJlc3VsdCB3YXMgYSBuZWF0bHkgd291bmQgY29pbC4gVGhlIHdob2xlIHRoaW5nIHdh cyB0aGVuIGVuY2FzZWQgaW4gQXJhbGRpdGUuIFRoZSB1bmludGVuZGVkIHN1cnByaXNpbmcgZWZm ZWN0IHdhcyB0aGF0LCBzaW5jZSB0aGUgcmVmcmFjdGl2ZSBpbmRpY2VzIG9mIHRoZSBwbGFzdGlj IGFuZCBBcmFsZGl0ZSBhcHBhcmVudGx5IGRpZmZlcmVkIGxpdHRsZSwgdGhlIHBsYXN0aWMgcmlt IGJlY2FtZSBjb21wbGV0ZWx5IGludmlzaWJsZS4gVGhlIG9ic2VydmVyIHNhdyBhIGNvcmUgaW4g dGhlIEFyYWxkaXRlIHdpdGggYSBiZWF1dGlmdWxseSByZWd1bGFybHkgd291bmQgY29pbCBhcm91 bmQgaXQuIFdlIGxlZnQgbWFueSBhIHZpc2l0b3IgaW4gdGhlIGRhcmsgZm9yIHF1aXRlIHNvbWUg dGltZSBhYm91dCBob3cgd2UgcHJvZHVjZWQgdGhlc2UgdGhpbmdzIQ0KDQpUaGUgdGltZSBvZiBh bWF0ZXVyaXNtIHdhcyBjb21pbmcgdG8gYW4gZW5kLiBDb21wdXRlcnMgYmVnYW4gdG8gYXBwZWFy IG9uIHRoZSBtYXJrZXQsIGFuZCB0aGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0IG91ciBncm91cCwgd2hpY2ggaGFkIG5v dyBncm93biB0byBzZXZlcmFsIGRvemVuIGVtcGxveWVlcywgZGlkIG5vdCByZWFsbHkgYmVsb25n IGluIHRoZSBNYXRoZW1hdGljYWwgQ2VudGVyIHN0YXJ0ZWQgdG8gYmVjb21lIHBhaW5mdWxseSBj bGVhciB0byB1cy4gR3JhZHVhbCBkaXNzb2x1dGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgZ3JvdXAgd2FzLCBvZiBjb3Vy c2UsIGFuIG9wdGlvbiwgYnV0IHRoYXQgbWVhbnQgZGVzdHJveWluZyBhIGdvb2QgcGllY2Ugb2Yg a25vdy1ob3cuIEEgc29sdXRpb24gd2FzIGZvdW5kIHdoZW4gdGhlIE5pbGxtaWosIHdoaWNoIGhh ZCBiZWVuIGF1dG9tYXRpbmcgaXRzIGFkbWluaXN0cmF0aW9uIGZvciBzb21lIHRpbWUgdXNpbmcg QnVsbCBwdW5jaCBjYXJkIGVxdWlwbWVudCwgZGVjbGFyZWQgaXRzIHdpbGxpbmduZXNzIHRvIHRh a2Ugb3ZlciBvdXIgZ3JvdXAgYXMgdGhlIGNvcmUgb2YgYSBuZXcgRHV0Y2ggY29tcHV0ZXIgaW5k dXN0cnkuIFRodXMgaXQgaGFwcGVuZWQuIFRoZSBuZXcgY29tcGFueSwgTi5WLiBFbGVrdHJvbG9n aWNhLCB3YXMgZm9ybWFsbHkgZXN0YWJsaXNoZWQgaW4gMTk1NiwgYW5kIGdyYWR1YWxseSBvdXIg Z3JvdXDigJlzIGVtcGxveWVlcyB3ZXJlIHRyYW5zZmVycmVkIHRvIEVsZWt0cm9sb2dpY2EsIGEg cHJvY2VzcyB0aGF0IHdhcyBjb21wbGV0ZWQgd2l0aCBteSBvd24gdHJhbnNmZXIgb24gSmFudWFy eSAxLCAxOTU5LiBBcyB0aGUgZmlyc3QgY29tbWVyY2lhbCBtYWNoaW5lLCB3ZSBkZXNpZ25lZCBh IGZ1bGx5IHRyYW5zaXN0b3JpemVkIGNvbXB1dGVyLCB0aGUgWEksIHdob3NlIHByb3RvdHlwZSBw ZXJmb3JtZWQgaXRzIGZpcnN0IGNhbGN1bGF0aW9ucyBhdCB0aGUgZW5kIG9mIDE5NTcuIFRoZSBz cGVlZCB3YXMgYWJvdXQgdGVuIHRpbWVzIHRoYXQgb2YgdGhlIEFSTUFDLg0KDQpXaXRoIHRoaXMs IEkgY29uc2lkZXIgdGhlIHBlcmlvZCBJIGhhZCB0byBjb3ZlciBhcyBjb25jbHVkZWQuIFdoZW4g SSBjb25mcm9udCBteSBtZW1vcmllcyB3aXRoIHRoZSB0aXRsZSBvZiB0aGlzIGxlY3R1cmUsIGl0 IG11c3QgYmUgc2FpZCB0aGF0ICdkZXNpZ25pbmcgY29tcHV0ZXJzJyBhcyBzdWNoIGhhcmRseSBl eGlzdGVkOiB0aGUgYWN0aXZpdGllcyB0aGF0IGNvdWxkIGJlIGxhYmVsZWQgYXMgc3VjaCB3ZXJl IGFic29yYmVkIGluIHRoZSB0b3RhbCBvZiBjb25jZXJucyB0aGF0IGRlbWFuZGVkIG91ciBhdHRl bnRpb24uIFRob3NlIHdobyBlbmdhZ2VkIGluIGNvbnN0cnVjdGluZyBjYWxjdWxhdGluZyBtYWNo aW5lcyBhdCB0aGF0IHRpbWUgdXN1YWxseSB3b3JrZWQgaW4gdmVyeSBzbWFsbCB0ZWFtcyBhbmQg cGVyZm9ybWVkIGFsbCB0aGUgbmVjZXNzYXJ5IHRhc2tzLiBXZSBkZWNpZGVkIG9uIHRoZSBjb25z dHJ1Y3Rpb24gb2YgcmFja3MsIGRvb3JzLCBhbmQgY2xvc3VyZXMsIHRoZSBwbGFjZW1lbnQgb2Yg ZmFucyAodGhlIEFSTUFDIGNvbnN1bWVkIDEwIGtXISksIHdlIG1vdW50ZWQgcG93ZXIgZGlzdHJp YnV0aW9uIGNhYmluZXRzIGFuZCBhc3NvY2lhdGVkIHdpcmluZywgd2Uga25ldyB0aGUgYXZhaWxh YmxlIGZ1c2VzIGFuZCBjcm9zcy1zZWN0aW9ucyBvZiBlbGVjdHJpY2FsIGNhYmxlcyBieSBoZWFy dCwgd2Ugc29sZGVyZWQsIHdlIHBlZXJlZCBhdCBvc2NpbGxvZ3JhcGhzLCB3ZSBjbGltYmVkIGlu dG8gdGhlIG1hY2hpbmUgYXJtZWQgd2l0aCBhIHZhY3V1bSBjbGVhbmVyIHRvIGNsZWFuIGl0LCBh bmQsIGluZGVlZCwgc29tZXRpbWVzIHdlIHdlcmUgYWxzbyBpbnZvbHZlZCBpbiBkZXNpZ24uDQoN CldlIHNob3VsZCBub3QgaWRlYWxpemUuIEFzIHlvdSBtYXkgaGF2ZSBnYXRoZXJlZCBmcm9tIHRo ZSBhYm92ZSwgd2Ugd2VyZSBvY2Nhc2lvbmFsbHkgYnJvdWdodCB0byB0aGUgYnJpbmsgb2YgZGVz cGFpciBieSB0ZWNobmljYWwgcHJvYmxlbXMuIEluYWRlcXVhdGUgY29tcG9uZW50cyBwbGFndWVk IHVzLCBhcyBkaWQgYSBsYWNrIG9mIGtub3dsZWRnZSBhbmQgaW5zaWdodC4gVGhpcyBsYWNrIGV4 aXN0ZWQgbm90IG9ubHkgaW4gb3VyIGdyb3VwIGJ1dCBnbG9iYWxseSB0aGUgZmllbGQgd2FzIG5v dCB5ZXQgbWFzdGVyZWQuDQoNCkhvd2V2ZXIsIGl0IHdhcyBhbHNvIGEgZmFzY2luYXRpbmcgdGlt ZSwgbWFya2VkIGJ5IGEgY29uc3RhbnQgc2Vuc2Ugb2YgJ25ldmVyIGJlZm9yZSBzZWVuLCcgYWx0 aG91Z2ggdGhhdCBtYXkgbm90IGFsd2F5cyBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbGl0ZXJhbGx5IHRydWUuIEl0IHdh cyBhIHRpbWUgd2hlbiBvcmdhbml6aW5nIG92ZXJ0aW1lLCBzb21ldGltZXMgbGFzdGluZyBhbGwg bmlnaHQsIHBvc2VkIG5vIHByb2JsZW0uIEl0IHdhcyBhIHRpbWUgd2hlbiB3ZSBrbmV3IGEgbGFy Z2UgcG9ydGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgcGFydGljaXBhbnRzIGluIGludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgY29tcHV0ZXIg Y29uZmVyZW5jZXMgYXQgbGVhc3QgYnkgc2lnaHQh --===============8926849497957055975==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 23 18:55:52 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:55:42 -0600 Message-ID: <8c9fade4-5319-4fda-814c-8a759a895c87@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7114887897189083298==" --===============7114887897189083298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-07-23 12:09 p.m., Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> It's interesting that the designers of ARRA spoke about what they did, and= were quite honest about their mistakes. Quite refreshing. Unfortunately th= at narrative is in Dutch: "Computers ontwerpen, toen". https://ir.cwi.nl/pub= /13534/13534D.pdf One of these days I should finish my translation of that l= ecture. >=20 > ChatGPT 4o did a passable job it looks like. Real .txt files have LF's and CR's. --===============7114887897189083298==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 23 19:21:12 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 15:20:28 -0400 Message-ID: <989DDCE1-EF39-427B-8AF6-D412A207CA14@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <8c9fade4-5319-4fda-814c-8a759a895c87@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6549263331757041139==" --===============6549263331757041139== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 23, 2024, at 2:55 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2024-07-23 12:09 p.m., Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk >> wrote: >>> It's interesting that the designers of ARRA spoke about what they did, an= d were quite honest about their mistakes. Quite refreshing. Unfortunately t= hat narrative is in Dutch: "Computers ontwerpen, toen". https://ir.cwi.nl/pu= b/13534/13534D.pdf One of these days I should finish my translation of that = lecture. >> ChatGPT 4o did a passable job it looks like. >=20 > Real .txt files have LF's and CR's. Here goes. paul --===============6549263331757041139== Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Translation.txt" MIME-Version: 1.0 Qy5TLiBTY2hvbHRlbg0KDQpJbiB0aGUgc3VtbWVyIG9mIDE5NDcsIEkgd2FzIG9uIHZhY2F0aW9u IGluIEFsbWVsby4gRWFybGllciB0aGF0IHllYXIsDQpvbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBkYXkgYXMgbXkgYmVz dCBmcmllbmQgYW5kIGluc2VwYXJhYmxlIHN0dWR5IG1hdGUsIEJyYWluDQpKYW4gTG9vcHN0cmEs IEkgaGFkIHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWxseSBwYXNzZWQgdGhlIHF1YWxpZnlpbmcgZXhhbXMgaW4NCm1hdGhl bWF0aWNzIGFuZCBwaHlzaWNzLiBUaGUgbWFuZGF0b3J5IGJyaWVmIGludHJvZHVjdGlvbiB0byB0 aGUgdGhyZWUNCm1ham9yIGxhYm9yYXRvcmllc++/ve+/ve+/vXRoZSBQaHlzaWNzIExhYm9yYXRv cnksIHRoZSBWLmQuIFdhYWxzIExhYm9yYXRvcnksDQphbmQgdGhlIFplZW1hbiBMYWJvcmF0b3J5 77+977+977+9d2FzIGJlaGluZCB1cywgYW5kIHdlIHdlcmUgYWJvdXQgdG8gc3RhcnQNCm91ciBk b2N0b3JhbCBzdHVkaWVzIGluIGV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbCBwaHlzaWNzLiBGb3IgdHdvIHllYXJzLCB3 ZSB3b3VsZA0KYmUgcHJhY3RpY2FsbHkgd29ya2luZyBpbiBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIGFmb3JlbWVudGlv bmVkIGxhYm9yYXRvcmllcy4NCg0KT25lIGRheSwgSSByZWNlaXZlZCBhIHRlbGVncmFtIGluIEFs bWVsbyB3aXRoIGFwcHJveGltYXRlbHkgdGhlDQpmb2xsb3dpbmcgY29udGVudDogIldvdWxkIHlv dSBsaWtlIHRvIGFzc2lzdCBpbiBidWlsZGluZyBhbiBhdXRvbWF0aWMNCmNhbGN1bGF0aW5nIG1h Y2hpbmU/IiBGb3IgYXNzdXJhbmNlLCBhbm90aGVyIHNlbnRlbmNlIHdhcyBhZGRlZDoNCiJNci4g TG9vcHN0cmEgaGFzIGFscmVhZHkgYWdyZWVkLiIgVGhlIHNlbmRlciB3YXMgIlRoZSBNYXRoZW1h dGljYWwNCkNlbnRlciwiIGFjY29yZGluZyB0byBmdXJ0aGVyIGRldGFpbHMsIGxvY2F0ZWQgaW4g QW1zdGVyZGFtLiBJIGJyaWVmbHkNCmNvbnNpZGVyZWQgd2hldGhlciBteSBmcmllbmQgaGFkIGFs cmVhZHkgY29uZmlybWVkIG15IGNvb3BlcmF0aW9uLCBidXQNCmluIHRoYXQgY2FzZSwgdGhlIHRl bGVncmFtIHNlZW1lZCB1bm5lY2Vzc2FyeSwgc28gSSBkaXNtaXNzZWQgdGhhdA0KYXNzdW1wdGlv bi4gQm90aCBzY2VuYXJpb3Mgd2VyZSBlcXVhbGx5IHZhbGlkOiBicmVha2luZyB1cCBvdXINCmxv bmctc3RhbmRpbmcgY29vcGVyYXRpb24gKGRhdGluZyBiYWNrIHRvIHRoZSBiZWdpbm5pbmcgb2Yg aGlnaA0Kc2Nob29sKSB3YXMgc2ltcGx5IHVudGhpbmthYmxlLiBGdXJ0aGVybW9yZSwgdGhlIHRl bGVncmFtIGNvbnRhaW5lZA0KdHdvIGF0dHJhY3RpdmUgcG9pbnRzOiAiYXV0b21hdGljIGNhbGN1 bGF0aW5nIG1hY2hpbmUiIGFuZA0KIk1hdGhlbWF0aWNhbCBDZW50ZXIsIiBib3RoIG5ldyBjb25j ZXB0cyB0byBtZS4gSSBjb3VsZG7vv73vv73vv710IGRlZHVjZSBtb3JlDQp0aGFuIHRoZSBuYW1l IHN1Z2dlc3RlZC4gU2luY2UgdGhlIGNvc3Qgb2YgYSB0ZWxlZ3JhbSBleGNlZWRlZCBteQ0KYnVk Z2V0LCBJIHBvc3RlZCBhIHBvc3RjYXJkIHdpdGggbXkgYW5zd2VyIGFuZCByZXN1bWVkIG15IHZh Y2F0aW9uDQphY3Rpdml0aWVzLiBUaG9zZSBvZiB5b3Ugd2hvIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBpbnZvbHZlZCBp biByZWNydWl0aW5nIHN0YWZmDQp3aWxsLCBJIGFzc3VtZSwgYmUgZmlsbGVkIHdpdGggYWRtaXJh dGlvbiBmb3IgdGhpcyB1bmlxdWUgZXhhbXBsZSBvZg0KcmVjcnVpdG1lbnQgdGFjdGljczogbm8g ZnVzcyBhYm91dCBzYWxhcnkgb3Igd29ya2luZyBob3Vycywgbm90IHRvDQptZW50aW9uIGlycmVs ZXZhbnQgZGV0YWlscyBsaWtlIHBlbnNpb24sIHZhY2F0aW9uLCBhbmQgc2ljayBsZWF2ZS4gRm9y DQp5b3VyIHJlYXNzdXJhbmNlLCBpdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgbWVudGlvbmVkIHRoYXQgSSB3YXMgaW5k ZWVkIG9mZmVyZWQgYQ0Kc2FsYXJ5IGFuZCBiZW5lZml0cywgd2hpY2gsIGluIG91ciBleWVzLCB3 ZXJlIHF1aXRlIGdlbmVyb3VzLg0KDQpJIHdhc24ndCB0b28gY29uY2VybmVkIGFib3V0IGhvdyB0 aGUgbmV3IGpvYiBjb3VsZCBiZSBjb21iaW5lZCB3aXRoDQp0aGUgbWFuZGF0b3J5IHR3by15ZWFy IGxhYm9yYXRvcnkgd29yay4gSSBiZWxpZXZlZCB0aGF0IGEgc29sdXRpb24gaGFkDQp0byBiZSBm b3VuZCBmb3IgdGhhdC4gQW5kIGEgc29sdXRpb24gd2FzIGZvdW5kOiB0aGUgbGFib3JhdG9yeSB3 b3JrDQpjb3VsZCBiZSByZXBsYWNlZCBieSBvdXIgd29yayBhdCB0aGUgTWF0aGVtYXRpY2FsIENl bnRlci4NCg0KVXBvbiByZXR1cm5pbmcgdG8gQW1zdGVyZGFtLCBJIGZvdW5kIG91dCB0aGUgZm9s bG93aW5nOiB0aGUNCk1hdGhlbWF0aWNhbCBDZW50ZXIgd2FzIGZvdW5kZWQgaW4gMTk0Niwgd2l0 aCBhIGdvYWwgdGhhdCBjb3VsZA0Kcm91Z2hseSBiZSBpbmZlcnJlZCBmcm9tIGl0cyBuYW1lLiBP bmUgb2YgdGhlIGRlcGFydG1lbnRzIHdhcyB0aGUNCidDYWxjdWxhdGlvbiBEZXBhcnRtZW50LCcg d2hlcmUgZGlsaWdlbnQgeW91bmcgbGFkaWVzLCB1c2luZyBoYW5kDQpjYWxjdWxhdG9yc++/ve+/ ve+/vWNvbGxvcXVpYWxseSBrbm93biBhcyAnY29mZmVlIGdyaW5kZXJzJ++/ve+/ve+/vW51bWVy aWNhbGx5DQpzb2x2ZWQsIGZvciBleGFtcGxlLCBkaWZmZXJlbnRpYWwgZXF1YXRpb25zIChpbiBh IGxhdGVyIHN0YWdlLA0Kc28tY2FsbGVkICdib29ra2VlcGluZyBtYWNoaW5lcycgd2VyZSBhZGRl ZCB0byB0aGUgbWFjaGluZXJ5KS4gVGhlDQpwcm9ibGVtcyBkZWFsdCB3aXRoIHVzdWFsbHkgY2Ft ZSBmcm9tIGV4dGVybmFsIGNsaWVudHMuIFRoZSBoZWFkIG9mDQp0aGUgQ2FsY3VsYXRpb24gRGVw YXJ0bWVudCB3YXMgRHIuIGlyLiBBLiB2YW4gV2lqbmdhYXJkZW4uIFN0b3JpZXMNCmFib3V0IGF1 dG9tYXRpYyBjYWxjdWxhdGluZyBtYWNoaW5lcyBoYWQgYWxzbyByZWFjaGVkIHRoZSBtYW5hZ2Vt ZW50DQpvZiB0aGUgTWF0aGVtYXRpY2FsIENlbnRlciwgYW5kIGl0IHdhcyBjbGVhciBmcm9tIHRo ZSBvdXRzZXQgdGhhdCBzdWNoDQphIHRvb2zvv73vv73vv71pZiB2aWFibGXvv73vv73vv71jb3Vs ZCBiZSBvZiBncmVhdCBpbXBvcnRhbmNlLCBlc3BlY2lhbGx5IGZvciB0aGUNCkNhbGN1bGF0aW9u IERlcGFydG1lbnQuIEhvd2V2ZXIsIGl0IHdhcyBub3QgcG9zc2libGUgdG8gYnV5IHRoaXMNCmVx dWlwbWVudDsgdGhvc2Ugd2hvIHdhbnRlZCB0byBkaXNjdXNzIGl0IGhhZCB0byBidWlsZCBpdA0K dGhlbXNlbHZlcy4gQ29uc2VxdWVudGx5LCBpdCB3YXMgZGVjaWRlZCB0byBlc3RhYmxpc2ggYSBz ZXBhcmF0ZSBncm91cA0KdW5kZXIgdGhlIENhbGN1bGF0aW9uIERlcGFydG1lbnQsIHdpdGggdGhl IHRhc2sgb2YgY29uc3RydWN0aW5nIGFuDQphdXRvbWF0aWMgY2FsY3VsYXRpbmcgbWFjaGluZS4g R2l2ZW4gdGhlIHByb2JhYmxlIG5hdHVyZSBvZiB0aGlzDQpncm91cO+/ve+/ve+/vXMgYWN0aXZp dGllcywgaXQgd2FzIHNvbWV3aGF0IGFuIG9kZGl0eSB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIE1hdGhlbWF0aWNhbA0K Q2VudGVyLCBkb29tZWQgdG8gZGlzYXBwZWFyLCBpZiBub3QgYWZ0ZXIgY29tcGxldGluZyB0aGUg Zmlyc3QNCm1hY2hpbmUsIHRoZW4gY2VydGFpbmx5IG9uY2UgdGhpcyBraW5kIG9mIHRvb2wgYmVj YW1lIGEgbm9ybWFsIHRyYWRlDQpvYmplY3QuDQoNCldlIHdlcmUgbm90IHRoZSBvbmx5IGdyb3Vw IGluIHRoZSBOZXRoZXJsYW5kcyBpbnZvbHZlZCBpbiBjb25zdHJ1Y3RpbmcNCmNhbGN1bGF0aW5n IG1hY2hpbmVzLiBBcyB3ZSBsYXRlciBkaXNjb3ZlcmVkLCBEci4gVy5MLiB2LmQuIFBvZWwgaGFk DQphbHJlYWR5IHN0YXJ0ZWQgY29uc3RydWN0aW5nIGEgbWFjaGluZSBpbiAxOTQ2Lg0KDQpPdXIg ZGlyZWN0IGJvc3Mgd2FzIFZhbiBXaWpuZ2FhcmRlbiwgYW5kIG91ciBuZXdseSBmb3JtZWQgdHdv LW1hbg0KZ3JvdXAgd2FzIHRlbXBvcmFyaWx5IGhvdXNlZCBpbiBhIHJvb20gb2YgdGhlIFBoeXNp Y3MgTGFib3JhdG9yeSBvbg0KUGxhbnRhZ2UgTXVpZGVyZ3JhY2h0LCB3aGVyZSBQcm9mLiBDbGF5 IHdhcyBpbiBjaGFyZ2UuIE91ciBmaXJzdA0Kc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgYWN0IHdhcyB0aGUgcmVtb3Zh bCBvZiBhIGhpZ2gtdm9sdGFnZSBpbnN0YWxsYXRpb24gaW4gdGhlDQpyb29tLCBtdWNoIHRvIHRo ZSBkaXNtYXkgb2YgQ2xheSwgd2hvIHdhcyBmb25kIG9mIHRoZSB0aGluZyBidXQNCmFycml2ZWQg dG9vIGxhdGUgdG8gcHJldmVudCB0aGUgZGlzYXN0ZXIuIFRoZW4gd2UgdGhvdWdodCBpdCBtaWdo dCBiZQ0KdXNlZnVsIHRvIGVxdWlwIHRoZSByb29tIHdpdGggc29tZSAyMjBWIHNvY2tldHMsIHNv IHdlIHdlbnQgdG8NCldhdGVybG9vcGxlaW4gYW5kIHJldHVybmVkIHdpdGggYSBzZWNvbmQtaGFu ZCBoYW1tZXIsIHBsaWVycywNCnNjcmV3ZHJpdmVyLCBzb21lIHdpcmUsIGFuZCBhIGZldyB3b29k ZW4gKGl0IHdhcyAxOTQ3ISkgc29ja2V0cy4gSQ0KcmVtZW1iZXIgd29uZGVyaW5nIHdoZXRoZXIg d2UgY291bGQgcmVhc29uYWJseSBzdWJtaXQgdGhlIGV4b3JiaXRhbnQNCmJpbGwgY29ycmVzcG9u ZGluZyB0byB0aGVzZSBwdXJjaGFzZXMuIE5vbmV0aGVsZXNzLCB3ZSBkaWQuDQoNCkFmdGVyIHBy b3ZpZGluZyBvdXIgcm9vbSB3aXRoIHZvbHRhZ2UsIHdlIGZlbHQgYW4gdW5wbGVhc2FudCBzZW5z YXRpb24NCnRoYXQgc29tZXRoaW5nIHdhcyBleHBlY3RlZCBmcm9tIHVzLCB0aG91Z2ggd2UgaGFk IG5vIGlkZWEgaG93IHRvDQpzdGFydC4gV2UgZGVjaWRlZCB0byBjb25zdWx0IHRoZSBzcGFyc2Ug bGl0ZXJhdHVyZS4gVGhpcyBpbnZlc3RpZ2F0aW9uDQp5aWVsZGVkIHR3byBub3RhYmxlIGFydGlj bGVzOiBvbmUgYWJvdXQgdGhlIEVOSUFDLCBhIGRpZ2l0YWwgKGRlY2ltYWwpDQpjb21wdXRlciBk ZXNpZ25lZCBmb3IgYmFsbGlzdGljIHByb2JsZW1zLCBhbmQgb25lIGFib3V0IGEgZGlmZmVyZW50 aWFsDQphbmFseXplciwgYSBkZXZpY2UgZm9yIHNvbHZpbmcgZGlmZmVyZW50aWFsIGVxdWF0aW9u cywgd2hlcmUgdGhlDQp2YWx1ZXMgb2YgdmFyaWFibGVzIHdlcmUgcmVwcmVzZW50ZWQgYnkgY29u dGludW91c2x5IHZhcmlhYmxlIHBoeXNpY2FsDQpxdWFudGl0aWVzLCBpbiB0aGlzIGNhc2UsIHRo ZSByb3RhdGlvbiBvZiBzaGFmdHMuIFRoZSBmaXJzdCBhcnRpY2xlDQp3YXMgYWJvbWluYWJseSB3 cml0dGVuIGFuZCBpbmNvbXByZWhlbnNpYmxlLCBhbmQgYXMgZmFyIGFzIHdlDQp1bmRlcnN0b29k IGl0LCBpdCB3YXMgZGF1bnRpbmcsIG1lbnRpb25pbmcsIGZvciBpbnN0YW5jZSwgMTgsMDAwDQp2 YWN1dW0gdHViZXMsIGEgbnVtYmVyIHdlIHdlcmUgc3VyZSBvdXIgZW1wbG95ZXIgY291bGQgbmV2 ZXINCmFmZm9yZC4gVGhlIHNlY29uZCBhcnRpY2xlIChieSBWLiBCdXNoKSwgb24gdGhlIG90aGVy IGhhbmQsIHdhcw0KZXhjZWxsZW50bHkgd3JpdHRlbiBhbmQgZ2F2ZSB1cyB0aGUgaWRlYSB0aGF0 IHN1Y2ggYSB0aGluZyBpbmRlZWQNCnNlZW1lZCBidWlsZGFibGUuDQoNClRoZXJlZm9yZSwgaXQg aGFkIHRvIGJlIGEgZGlmZmVyZW50aWFsIGFuYWx5emVyLCBhbmQgYSBtZWNoYW5pY2FsIG9uZQ0K YXQgdGhhdC4gQXMgd2Ugbm93IGtub3csIHdlIHdlcmUgYmV0dGluZyBvbiB0aGUgd3JvbmcgaG9y c2UsIGJ1dA0KZmlyc3QsIHdlIGRpZG7vv73vv73vv710IGtub3cgdGhhdCwgYW5kIHNlY29uZCwg aXQgZGlkbu+/ve+/ve+/vXQgcmVhbGx5DQptYXR0ZXIuIEluaXRpYWxseSwgd2Ugd2VyZSBub3Qg dXAgdG8gZWl0aGVyIHRhc2sgc2ltcGx5IGJlY2F1c2Ugd2UNCmxhY2tlZCBhbnkgZWxlY3Ryb25p YyB0cmFpbmluZy4gV2Ugd2VyZSBzdXBwb3NlZCB0byBtYXN0ZXIgZWxlY3RyaWNpdHkNCmFuZCBh dG9taWMgcGh5c2ljcywgYnV0IGhvdyBhIHZhY3V1bSB0dWJlIGxvb2tlZCBpbnNpZGUgd2FzIGtu b3duIG9ubHkNCnRvIHJhZGlvIGFtYXRldXJzIGFtb25nIHVzLCBhbmQgd2UgY2VydGFpbmx5IHdl cmUgbm90LiBPdXIgb3duDQoocHJlbGltaW5hcnkpIHByYWN0aWN1bSBjb250YWluZWQsIHRvIG15 IGtub3dsZWRnZSwgbm8gZXhwZXJpbWVudCBpbg0Kd2hpY2ggYSB2YWN1dW0gdHViZSB3YXMgdGhl IG9iamVjdCBvZiBzdHVkeSwgYW5kIHRoZSBwaHlzaWNzIHByYWN0aWN1bQ0KZm9yIG1lZGljYWwg c3R1ZGVudHMgKHRoZSBzby1jYWxsZWQgJ21lZGljYWwgcHJhY3RpY3VtJyksIHdoZXJlIHdlIGhh ZA0Kc3VwZXJ2aXNlZCBmb3IgYSB5ZWFyIGFzIHN0dWRlbnQgYXNzaXN0YW50cywgY29udGFpbmVk IGV4YWN0bHkgb25lDQpzdWNoIGV4cGVyaW1lbnQuIEl0IGludm9sdmVkIGEgcmVjdGlmaWVyLCBk YXRlZCBieSBjb2xsZWFndWVzIHdpdGgNCnNvbWUgdHJhaW5pbmcgaW4gYXJjaGFlb2xvZ3kgdG8g YWJvdXQgdGhlIGVuZCBvZiB0aGUgRmlyc3QgV29ybGQNCldhci4gVGhlIGFjY29tcGFueWluZyBt YW51YWwgcHJlc2NyaWJlZCB0dXJuaW5nIG9uIHRoZSAncGxhdGUgdm9sdGFnZScNCm9ubHkgdGVu cyBvZiBzZWNvbmRzIGFmdGVyIHRoZSBmaWxhbWVudCB2b2x0YWdlLCBhbmQgdGhlIHN0dWRlbnRz IGhhZA0KdG8gYW5zd2VyIHdoeSB0aGlzIGluc3RydWN0aW9uIHdhcyBnaXZlbi4gVGhlIGFuc3dl cnMgd2VyZSBzb21ldGltZXMNCnZlcnkgYW11c2luZy4gT25lIHN1Y2ggYW5zd2VyIEkgd29u77+9 77+977+9dCB3aXRoaG9sZCBmcm9tIHlvdTogJ1RoYXQgaXMgdG8NCmdpdmUgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQg YSBjaGFuY2UgdG8gZ28gYXJvdW5kIG9uY2UuJw0KDQpPdXIgZmlyc3Qgb3duIGV4cGVyaW1lbnQg d2l0aCBhIHZhY3V1bSB0dWJlIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gb3V0IG9mDQpwbGFjZSBpbiBh IHNsYXBzdGljayBtb3ZpZS4gSXQgaW52b2x2ZWQgYSB0cmlvZGUsIGluIHdob3NlIGFub2RlDQpj aXJjdWl0IHdlIGluY2x1ZGVkIGEgbWVnb2htIHJlc2lzdG9yIGZvciBzYWZldHkuIFNhZmVseSBl bnNjb25jZWQNCmJlaGluZCBhIHRpcHBlZC1vdmVyIHRhYmxlLCB3ZSB0dXJuZWQgb24gdGhlICdl eHBlcmltZW50LicgVW5saWtlIGluIGENCnNsYXBzdGljayBtb3ZpZSwgbm90aGluZyBzaWduaWZp Y2FudCBoYXBwZW5lZCBpbiBvdXIgY2FzZS4NCg0KV2l0aCB0aGUgaGVscCBvZiBzb21lIHRleHRi b29rcywgYW5kIG5vdCB0byBmb3JnZXQgdGhlICd0dWJlIG1hbnVhbHMnDQpvZiBzb21lIG1hbnVm YWN0dXJlcnMgb2YgdGhlc2UgdXNlZnVsIG9iamVjdHMsIHdlIHNvbWV3aGF0IGJydXNoZWQgdXAN Cm9uIG91ciBlbGVjdHJvbmljIGtub3dsZWRnZSBhbmQgbWFuYWdlZCB0byBnZXQgYSBjb3VwbGUg b2YgY29tcG9uZW50cywNCndoaWNoIHdlcmUgc3VwcG9zZWQgdG8gcGxheSBhIHJvbGUgaW4gdGhl IGRpZmZlcmVudGlhbCBhbmFseXplciwgdG8gYQ0Kc3RhdGUgd2hlcmUgdGhlaXIgZnVuY3Rpb24g Y291bGQgYXQgbGVhc3QgYmUgZ3Vlc3NlZC4gVGhleSB3ZXJlIGENCm1vbWVudCBhbXBsaWZpZXIg YW5kIGEgY3VydmUgZm9sbG93ZXIuIEhvdyB3ZSBzaG91bGQgcGVyZmVjdCB0aGVzZQ0KZGV2aWNl cyBzbyB0aGF0IHRoZXkgd291bGQgd29yayByZWxpYWJseSBhbmQgY291bGQgYmUgcHJvZHVjZWQg aW4gc29tZQ0KbnVtYmVycyByZW1haW5lZCBhIG15c3RlcnkgdG8gdXMuIFRoZSBzb2x1dGlvbiB0 byB0aGlzIG15c3Rlcnkgd2FzDQpuZXZlciBmb3VuZC4gQ2VydGFpbmx5IG5vdCBieSBtZSwgYXMg YXJvdW5kIHRoaXMgdGltZSAoSmFudWFyeSAxOTQ4KSwNCkkgd2FzIHN1bW1vbmVkIHRvIG1pbGl0 YXJ5IHNlcnZpY2UsIHdoaWNoIGNvdWxkbu+/ve+/ve+/vXQgZG8gd2l0aG91dA0KbWUuIER1cmlu ZyB0aGUgdHdvIHllYXJzIGFuZCBlaWdodCBtb250aHMgb2YgbXkgYWJzZW5jZSAoSSByZXR1cm5l ZCB0bw0KY2l2aWxpYW4gbGlmZSBpbiBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMTk1MCksIGEgZHJhc3RpYyBjaGFuZ2Ug dG9vayBwbGFjZSwgd2hpY2ggSQ0KY291bGQgZm9sbG93IHRoYW5rcyB0byBmcmVxdWVudCBjb250 YWN0cyB3aXRoIExvb3BzdHJhLg0KDQpGaXJzdCwgdGhlIE1hdGhlbWF0aWNhbCBDZW50ZXIsIGlu Y2x1ZGluZyBvdXIgZ3JvdXAsIG1vdmVkIHRvIHRoZQ0KY3VycmVudCBidWlsZGluZyBhdCAybmQg Qm9lcmhhYXZlc3RyYWF0IDQ5LiBUaGUgYnVpbGRpbmcgbG9va2VkDQpzb21ld2hhdCBkaWZmZXJl bnQgYmFjayB0aGVuLiBUaGUgZW50aXJlIGJ1aWxkaW5nIGhhZCBjb25zaXN0ZWQgb2YgdHdvDQpz eW1tZXRyaWNhbGx5IGJ1aWx0IHNjaG9vbHMuIER1cmluZyB0aGUgd2FyLCB0aGUgYnVpbGRpbmcg d2FzDQpyZXF1aXNpdGlvbmVkIGJ5IHRoZSBHZXJtYW5zIGFuZCB1c2VkIGFzIGEgZ2FyYWdlLiBJ biB0aGlzIGNvbnRleHQsDQp0aGUgb3V0ZXIgd2FsbCBvZiBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIGd5bW5hc2l1bXMg d2FzIGRlbW9saXNoZWQuIE5vdywgb25lIGhhbGYNCndhcyBhZ2FpbiBpbiB1c2UgYXMgYSBzY2hv b2wsIGFuZCB0aGUgb3RoZXIgaGFsZiwgYXMgd2VsbCBhcyB0aGUgYXR0aWMNCmFib3ZlIGJvdGgg aGFsdmVzLCB3YXMgYXNzaWduZWQgdG8gdGhlIE1hdGhlbWF0aWNhbCBDZW50ZXIuIFRoZQ0KR2Vy bWFucyBoYWQgaW5zdGFsbGVkIGEgbXVuaXRpb25zIGxpZnQgaW4gdGhlIGJ1aWxkaW5nLiBUaGUg bGlmdCB3YXMNCmdvbmUsIGJ1dCB0aGUgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCBsaWZ0IHNoYWZ0IHdhcyBub3QuIEZv cnR1bmF0ZWx5LCBmZXcgYW1vbmcgdXMNCmhhZCBzdWljaWRhbCB0ZW5kZW5jaWVzLiBUaGUgZnJv c3RlZCBnbGFzcyBpbiB0aGUgdG9pbGV0IGRvb3JzIChhbiBvbGQNCnNjaG9vbCEpIGhhZCBsb25n IHNpbmNlIGRpc2FwcGVhcmVkOyBmb3IgdGhlIHNha2Ugb2YgZGVjb3J1bSwgY3VydGFpbnMNCndl cmUgaHVuZyBpbiBmcm9udCBvZiB0aGVtLg0KDQpWYW4gV2lqbmdhYXJkZW4gY291bGQgb3BlcmF0 ZSBmb3IgYSBsb25nIHRpbWUgb3ZlciBhIGhvbGUgaW4gdGhlIGZsb29yDQpuZXh0IHRvIGhpcyBk ZXNrLCBjb3JyZXNwb25kaW5nIHdpdGggYSBob2xlIGluIHRoZSBjZWlsaW5nIG9mIHRoZSByb29t DQpiZWxvdyAodW5vY2N1cGllZCkuIERlc3BpdGUgaGlzIGltcHJlc3NpdmUgY2lnYXIgY29uc3Vt cHRpb24gYXQgdGhhdA0KdGltZSwgSSBkaWRu77+977+977+9dCBub3RpY2UgdGhhdCB0aGlzIGdp Z2FudGljIGFzaHRyYXkgZXZlciBmaWxsZWQgdXAuDQoNClRoZSBudW1iZXIgb2YgZW1wbG95ZWVz IGluIG91ciBncm91cCBoYWQgbWVhbndoaWxlIGV4cGFuZGVkIHNvbWV3aGF0Ow0KYWxsIGluIGFs bCwgcGVyaGFwcyBhcm91bmQgZml2ZS4NCg0KVGhlIG1vc3Qgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgY2hhbmdlIGlu IHRoZSBzaXR1YXRpb24gY29uY2VybmVkIG91ciBmdXJ0aGVyDQpwbGFucy4gVGhlIGlkZWEgb2Yg YSBkaWZmZXJlbnRpYWwgYW5hbHl6ZXIgd2FzIGFiYW5kb25lZCBhcyBpdCBoYWQNCmJlY29tZSBj bGVhciB0aGF0IHRoZSBmdXR1cmUgYmVsb25nZWQgdG8gZGlnaXRhbCBjb21wdXRlcnMuIFVwb24g bXkNCnJldHVybiwgYSBzdWJzdGFudGlhbCBwYXJ0IG9mIHN1Y2ggYSBjb21wdXRlciwgdGhlICdB JyAoQXV0b21hdGlzY2hlDQpSZWxhaXMgUmVrZW5tYWNoaW5lIEFtc3RlcmRhbSksIGhhZCBhbHJl YWR5IGJlZW4gcmVhbGl6ZWQuIFRoZSBtYWluDQpjb21wb25lbnRzIHdlcmUgcmVsYXlzIChmb3Ig dmFyaW91cyBsb2dpY2FsIGZ1bmN0aW9ucykgYW5kIHR1YmVzIChmb3INCnRoZSBmbGlwLWZsb3Bz IHRoYXQgY29tcG9zZWQgdGhlIHJlZ2lzdGVycykuIFRoZSByZWxheXMgd2VyZSBTaWVtZW5zDQpo aWdoLXNwZWVkIHJlbGF5cyAoc3dpdGNoaW5nIHRpbWVzIGluIHRoZSBvcmRlciBvZiBhIGZldw0K bWlsbGlzZWNvbmRzKSwgcGVyc29uYWxseSByZXRyaWV2ZWQgYnkgTG9vcHN0cmEgYW5kIFZhbiBX aWpuZ2FhcmRlbg0KZnJvbSBhbiBFbmdsaXNoIHdhciBzdXJwbHVzLiBUaGV5IGNvbnRhaW5lZCBh IHNpbmdsZSBjaGFuZ2VvdmVyDQpjb250YWN0IChicmVhay1iZWZvcmUtbWFrZSksIHdpdGggbWFr ZSBhbmQgYnJlYWsgY29udGFjdHMgcmlnaWRseSBzZXQsDQphbHRob3VnaCBhZGp1c3RhYmxlLiBM b2dpY2FsbHkgYXBwZWFsaW5nIHdlcmUgdGhlIHR3byBzZXBhcmF0ZSBjb2lscw0KKHdpdGggYW4g ZXF1YWwgbnVtYmVyIG9mIHdpbmRpbmdzKTogYm90aCB0aGUgaW5jbHVzaXZlIGFuZCBleGNsdXNp dmUNCk9SIGZ1bmN0aW9ucyB3ZXJlIHdpdGhpbiByZWFjaC4gVGhlIHJlbGF5cyB3ZXJlIG1vdW50 ZWQgb24gb2N0YWwgYmFzZXMNCmJ5IHVzIGFuZCBsYXRlciBlbmNsb3NlZCBpbiBhIHBsYXN0aWMg YmFnIHRvIHByZXZlbnQgY29udGFjdA0KY29udGFtaW5hdGlvbi4NCg0KVGhleSB3ZXJlIGEgY29u c3RhbnQgc291cmNlIG9mIGNvbmNlcm46IHN3aXRjaGluZyB0aW1lcyB3ZXJlDQp1bnJlbGlhYmxl IChlc3BlY2lhbGx5IHdoZW4gdGhlIGV4Y2x1c2l2ZSBPUiB3YXMgYXBwbGllZCkgYW5kIGNvbnRh Y3QNCmRlZ3JhZGF0aW9uIG9jY3VycmVkIG5vbmV0aGVsZXNzLiBDbGVhbmluZyB0aGUgY29udGFj dHMgKCdwb2xpc2hpbmcNCnRoZSBwaW5zJykgYW5kIHJlc2V0dGluZyB0aGUgc3dpdGNoaW5nIHRp bWVzIGJlY2FtZSBhIHJlZ3VsYXIgcGFzdGltZSwNCm9mdGVuIGludm9sdmluZyB0aGUgZ2lybHMg ZnJvbSB0aGUgQ2FsY3VsYXRpb24gRGVwYXJ0bWVudC4gVGhlIHNldHRpbmcNCndhcyBkb25lIG9u IGEgcmVsYXkgdGVzdGVyLCBhbmQgZHVyaW5nIHRoaXMgc2V0dGluZywgdGhlIGNvbnRhY3RzIHdl cmUNCnVuZGVyIGNvbnNpZGVyYWJsZSB2b2x0YWdlLiBBbHRob3VnaCBhbiBpbnN0cnVtZW50IHdp dGggYSB3b29kZW4NCmhhbmRsZSB3YXMgdXNlZCBmb3Igc2V0dGluZywgdGhlIGN1cnNlcyBvY2Nh c2lvbmFsbHkgdXR0ZXJlZCBzdWdnZXN0ZWQNCml0IHdhcyBub3QgZW50aXJlbHkgZWZmZWN0aXZl Lg0KDQpGb3IgdGhlIGZsaXAtZmxvcHMsIGRvdWJsZSB0cmlvZGVzIHdlcmUgdXNlZCwgZm9sbG93 ZWQgYnkgYSBwb3dlciB0dWJlDQp0byBkcml2ZSBhIHN1ZmZpY2llbnQgbnVtYmVyIG9mIHJlbGF5 cywgYW5kIGEgcGlsb3QgbGFtcCBmb3IgdmlzdWFsDQppbmRpY2F0aW9uIG9mIHRoZSBmbGlwLWZs b3Agc3RhdGUuIFNpbmNlIHRoZSBBIGhhZCB0aHJlZSByZWdpc3RlcnMsDQplYWNoIDMwIGJpdHMg d2lkZSwgdGhlcmUgbXVzdCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gYWJvdXQgOTAgcG93ZXIgdHViZXMsIGFuZCB3ZQ0K bm90ZWQgd2l0aCBkaXNtYXkgdGhhdCA5MCBwb3dlciB0dWJlcyBvc2NpbGxhdGVkIGV4Y2VsbGVu dGx5LiBBZnRlcg0Kc29tZSB0aW1lLCB3ZSBrbmV3IGV4YWN0bHkgd2hpY2ggcGlsb3QgbGFtcCBz b2NrZXQgbmVlZGVkIGEgMi1tZXRlcg0Kd2lyZSB0byBlbGltaW5hdGUgdGhlIG9zY2lsbGF0aW9u Lg0KDQpBdCBhIGxhdGVyIHN0YWdlLCBhIGRydW0gKGluaXRpYWxseSwgdGhlIGluc3RydWN0aW9u cyB3ZXJlIHJlYWQgZnJvbSBhDQpwbHVnYm9hcmQgdmlhIHN0ZXAgc3dpdGNoZXMpIGZ1bmN0aW9u ZWQgYXMgbWVtb3J5OyBmb3IgaW5wdXQgYW5kDQpvdXRwdXQsIGEgdGFwZSByZWFkZXIgKHBhcGVy LCBhcyBtYWduZXRpYyB0YXBlIHdhcyB5ZXQgdG8gYmUgaW52ZW50ZWQpDQphbmQgYSB0ZWxlcHJp bnRlciB3ZXJlIGF2YWlsYWJsZS4gQSB3b29kZW4ga2l0Y2hlbiB0YWJsZSBzZXJ2ZWQgYXMgdGhl DQpjb250cm9sIGRlc2suDQoNClJlbGF5cyBhbmQgdHViZXMgbWlnaHQgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHRoZSBt YWluIGxvZ2ljYWwgYnVpbGRpbmcgYmxvY2tzLCBidXQNCnRoZXkgd2VyZSBjZXJ0YWlubHkgbm90 IHRoZSBvbmx5IG9uZXMuIFdpdGhvdXQgdG9vIG11Y2ggZXhhZ2dlcmF0aW9uLA0KaXQgY2FuIGJl IHNhaWQgdGhhdCB0aGUgQSB3YXMgYSBjb2xsZWN0aW9uIG9mIHdoYXQgdGhlIGVsZWN0cm9uaWMN CmluZHVzdHJ5IGhhZCB0byBvZmZlciwgYSBjaXJjdW1zdGFuY2UgZ3JlYXRseSBjb250cmlidXRl ZCB0byBieSBvdXINCmZyZXF1ZW50IHRyaXBzIHRvIEVpbmRob3ZlbiwgZnJvbSB3aGVyZSB3ZSBv ZnRlbiByZXR1cm5lZCB3aXRoIHNvbWUNCidzYW1wbGUgaXRlbXMuJyBPbiB0aGUgdHJhaW4gYmFj aywgd2UgZmlyc3QgcmVtaW5pc2NlZCBhYm91dCB0aGUNCmV4Y2VsbGVudCBsdW5jaCB3ZSBoYWQg ZW5qb3llZCBhbmQgdGhlbiBpbnZlbnRvcmllZCB0byBkZXRlcm1pbmUgaWYgd2UNCmJyb3VnaHQg YmFjayBlbm91Z2ggdG8gY292ZXIgdGhlIHRyYXZlbCBleHBlbnNlcy4gVGhpcyBleGFtaW5hdGlv bg0KdXN1YWxseSB0dXJuZWQgb3V0IHBvc2l0aXZlLg0KDQpJdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgbm90ZWQgdGhh dCB0aGUgQSB3YXMgbWFpbmx5IG5vdCBjbG9ja2VkLiBFYWNoIHByaW1pdGl2ZQ0Kb3BlcmF0aW9u IHdhcyBmb2xsb3dlZCBieSBhbiAnb3BlcmF0aW9uIGNvbXBsZXRlJyBzaWduYWwsIHdoaWNoIGlu DQp0dXJuIHN0YXJ0ZWQgdGhlIG5leHQgb3BlcmF0aW9uLiBJdCBpcyBzb21ld2hhdCBhbXVzaW5n IHRoYXQgbm93YWRheXMNCnN1Y2ggYSBzeXN0ZW0gaXMgc29tZXRpbWVzIHByb3Bvc2VkIGFnYWlu IChidXQgaG9wZWZ1bGx5IG1vcmUgcmVsaWFibGUNCnRoYW4gd2hhdCB3ZSBwcm9kdWNlZCkgdG8g cHJldmVudCBnbGl0Y2ggcHJvYmxlbXMsIGEgY29uY2VwdCB3ZSB3ZXJlDQpub3QgZmFtaWxpYXIg d2l0aCBhdCB0aGUgdGltZS4NCg0KTmVlZGxlc3MgdG8gc2F5LCB0aGUgQSB3YXMgc28gdW5yZWxp YWJsZSB0aGF0IGxpdHRsZSBwcm9kdWN0aXZlIHdvcmsNCmNvdWxkIGJlIGRvbmUgd2l0aCBpdC4g SG93ZXZlciwgaXQgd2FzIG9mZmljaWFsbHkgcHV0IGludG8gdXNlLiBCeQ0KbWlkLTE5NTIsIHRo aXMgd2FzIHRoZSBjYXNlLiBIaXMgRXhjZWxsZW5jeSBGLkouIFRoLiBSdXR0ZW4sIHRoZW4NCk1p bmlzdGVyIG9mIEVkdWNhdGlvbiwgYXBwZWFyZWQgYXQgb3VyIHBsYWNlIGFuZCBvZmZpY2lhbGx5 DQppbmF1Z3VyYXRlZCB0aGUgQSB3aXRoIHNvbWUgY2VyZW1vbnkuIEZvciB0aGlzIHB1cnBvc2Us IHdlIGNhcmVmdWxseQ0KY2hvc2UgYSBkZW1vbnN0cmF0aW9uIHByb2dyYW0gd2l0aCBtaW5pbWFs IHJpc2sgb2YgZmFpbHVyZSwgbmFtZWx5DQpwcm9kdWNpbmcgcmFuZG9tIG51bWJlcnMg77+977+9 IGxhIEZpYm9uYWNjaS4gV2UgaGFkIHJlaGVhcnNlZCB0aGUNCmRlbW9uc3RyYXRpb24gc28gb2Z0 ZW4gdGhhdCB3ZSBrbmV3IGxhcmdlIHBhcnRzIG9mIHRoZSBvdXRwdXQgc2VxdWVuY2UNCmJ5IGhl YXJ0LCBhbmQgd2UgYnJlYXRoZWQgYSBzaWdoIG9mIHJlbGllZiB3aGVuIHdlIGZvdW5kIHRoYXQg dGhlDQptYWNoaW5lIHByb2R1Y2VkIHRoZSBjb3JyZWN0IG91dHB1dC4gSW4gaGluZHNpZ2h0LCBJ IGFtIHN1cnByaXNlZCB0aGF0DQp0aGlzIGRlbW9uc3RyYXRpb24gZGlkIG5vdCBlYXJuIHVzIGEg cmVwcmltYW5kIGZyb20NCmhpZ2hlci11cHMuIEltYWdpbmU6IHlvdSBhcmUgdGhlIE1pbmlzdGVy IG9mIEVkdWNhdGlvbiwgdGhvcm91Z2hseQ0KYnJpZWZlZCBhdCB0aGUgRGVwYXJ0bWVudCBhYm91 dCB0aGUgd29uZGVycyBvZiB0aGUgdXBjb21pbmcgY29tcHV0aW5nDQptYWNoaW5lczsgeW91IGF0 dGVuZCB0aGUgb2ZmaWNpYWwgaW5hdWd1cmF0aW9uLCBhbmQgeW91IGFyZSBncmVldGVkIGJ5DQph IGdyb3VwIGV4cGxhaW5pbmcgdGhhdCwgdG8gZGVtb25zdHJhdGUgdGhlc2Ugd29uZGVycywgdGhl IG1hY2hpbmUNCndpbGwgc29vbiBwcm9kdWNlIGEgc2VyaWVzIG9mIHJhbmRvbSBudW1iZXJzLiBX aGVuIHRoZSBtb21lbnQgYXJyaXZlcywNCnRoZXkgdGVsbCB5b3Ugd2l0aCBiZWFtaW5nIGZhY2Vz IHRoYXQgdGhlIG1hY2hpbmUgd29ya3MgZXhjZWxsZW50bHkuIEkNCndvdWxkIGhhdmUgYXNzdW1l ZCB0aGF0LCBpZiBub3Qgd2l0aCB0aGUgdHJ1dGgsIGF0IGxlYXN0IHdpdGggbWUsIHRoZXkNCndl cmUgaGF2aW5nIGEgYml0IG9mIGZ1bi4gSGlzIEV4Y2VsbGVuY3kgcmVtYWluZWQgZnJpZW5kbHks IGENCnJlbWFya2FibGUgZGlzcGxheSBvZiBzZWxmLWNvbnRyb2wuDQoNClRoZSBlbW90aW9ucyBz dGlycmVkIGJ5IHRoaXMgZmVzdGl2aXR5IHdlcmUgYXBwYXJlbnRseSB0b28gbXVjaCBmb3INCnRo ZSBBLiBBZnRlciB0aGUgb3BlbmluZywgYXMgZmFyIGFzIEkgcmVjYWxsLCBubyByZWFzb25hYmxl IGFtb3VudCBvZg0KdXNlZnVsIHdvcmsgd2FzIGV2ZXIgcHJvZHVjZWQuIEFmdGVyIHNvbWUgdGlt ZSwgdG93YXJkcyB0aGUgZW5kIG9mDQoxOTUyLCB3ZSBkZWNpZGVkIHRvIGdpdmUgdXAgdGhlIEFS UkEgYXMgYSBob3BlbGVzcyBjYXNlIGFuZCBkbw0Kc29tZXRoaW5nIGVsc2UuIFRoZXJlIHdhcyBh bm90aGVyIHJlYXNvbiBmb3IgdGhpcyBkZWNpc2lvbi4gVGhlIHllYXINCjE5NTIgc2hvdWxkIGJl IGNvbnNpZGVyZWQgYW4gZXhjZWxsZW50IGhhcnZlc3QgeWVhciBmb3IgdGhlDQpNYXRoZW1hdGlj YWwgQ2VudGVyIHN0YWZmOiBpbiBNYXJjaCBhbmQgTm92ZW1iZXIgb2YgdGhhdCB5ZWFyLCBFZHNn ZXINCkRpamtzdHJhIGFuZCBHZXJyaXQgQmxhYXV3IHJlc3BlY3RpdmVseSBhcHBlYXJlZCBvbiB0 aGUgc2NlbmUuIE9mDQp0aGVzZSB0d28sIHRoZSBsYXR0ZXIgaXMgb2YgcGFydGljdWxhciBpbXBv cnRhbmNlIGZvciB0b2RheSdzIHN0b3J5DQphbmQgb3VyIGZ1dHVyZSBuYXJyYXRpdmUuIEdlcnJp dCBoYWQgd29ya2VkIG9uIGNvbXB1dGVycyBhdCBIYXJ2YXJkLA0KdW5kZXIgdGhlIHN1cGVydmlz aW9uIG9mIEhvd2FyZCBBaWtlbi4gSGUgaGFkIGFsc28gd3JpdHRlbiBhDQpkaXNzZXJ0YXRpb24g dGhlcmUgYW5kIHdhcyB3aWxsaW5nIHRvIGxlbmQgaGlzIGtub3dsZWRnZSBhbmQgaW5zaWdodA0K dG8gdGhlIE1hdGhlbWF0aWNhbCBDZW50ZXIuIFdlIHdlcmUgbm90IHZlcnkgY29tcGxpYW50IGJv eXMgYXQgdGhhdA0KdGltZS4gTGV0IG1lIHB1dCBpdCB0aGlzIHdheTogd2Ugd2VyZSBhd2FyZSB0 aGF0IHdlIGRpZCBub3QgaGF2ZSBhDQptb25vcG9seSBvbiB3aXNkb20sIGJ1dCB3ZSBmb3VuZCBp dCBoaWdobHkgdW5saWtlbHkgdGhhdCBhbnlvbmUgZWxzZQ0Kd291bGQga25vdyBiZXR0ZXIuIFRo ZXJlZm9yZSwgdGhlICduZXdjb21lcicgd2FzIHZpZXdlZCB3aXRoIHNvbWUNCnN1c3BpY2lvbi4g R2Vycml077+977+977+9cyBhY2hpZXZlbWVudCB3YXMgYWxsIHRoZSBncmVhdGVyIHdoZW4gaGUg Y29udmluY2VkDQp1cyBpbiBhIGxlY3R1cmUgb2YgdGhlIHZhbGlkaXR5IG9mIHdoYXQgaGUgcHJv cG9zZWQuIEFuZCB0aGF0IHdhcw0KcXVpdGUgc29tZXRoaW5nOiBhIGNsb2NrZWQgbWFjaGluZSwg dW5pZm9ybSBidWlsZGluZyBibG9ja3MgY29uc2lzdGluZw0Kb2YgdmFyaW91cyB0eXBlcyBvZiBB TkQvT1IgZ2F0ZXMgYW5kIGNvcnJlc3BvbmRpbmcgYW1wbGlmaWVycywNCnBsdWdnYWJsZSAoYW5k IHRodXMgaW50ZXJjaGFuZ2VhYmxlKSB1bml0cywgYSBuZWF0IGRlc2lnbiBtZXRob2QgYmFzZWQN Cm9uIHRoZSB1c2Ugb2YgdHdvIGFsdGVybmF0aW5nLCBzZXBhcmF0ZSBzZXJpZXMgb2YgY2xvY2sg cHVsc2VzLCBhbmQNCnByb3BlciBkb2N1bWVudGF0aW9uLg0KDQpXZSB3ZXJlIHNvbGQgb24gdGhl IHBsYW4gYW5kIGdvdCB0byB3b3JrLiBBIHNtYWxsIGRpZmZpY3VsdHkgaGFkIHRvIGJlDQpvdmVy Y29tZTogd2hhdCB3ZSBpbnRlbmRlZCB0byBkbyB3YXMgb2J2aW91c2x5IG5vdGhpbmcgbW9yZSBv ciBsZXNzDQp0aGFuIGJ1aWxkaW5nIGEgbmV3IG1hY2hpbmUsIGFuZCB0aGlzIGZhY3QgZW5jb3Vu dGVyZWQgc29tZSBwb2xpdGljYWwNCmRpZmZpY3VsdGllcy4gVGhlIHNvbHV0aW9uIHRvIHRoaXMg cHJvYmxlbSB3YXMgc2ltcGxlOiBmb3JtYWxseSwgaXQNCndvdWxkIGJlIGEgJ3JldmlzaW9uJyBv ZiB0aGUgQS4gVGhlIG5ldyBtYWNoaW5lIHdhcyB0aHVzIGFsc28gY2FsbGVkIEENCih3ZSBzaGFs bCBoZW5jZWZvcnRoIHNwZWFrIG9mIEEgSUkpLCBidXQgdGhlIGRvdWJsZSBib3R0b20gd2FzDQpw ZXJmZWN0bHkgY2xlYXIgdG8gYW55IHZpc2l0b3I6IHRoZSBmcmFtZXMgb2YgdGhlIHR3byBtYWNo aW5lcyB3ZXJlDQpkaXN0aW5jdGx5IHNlcGFyYXRlZCwgd2l0aCBubyBjb25uZWN0aW5nIHdpcmUg YmV0d2VlbiB0aGVtLg0KDQpGb3IgdGhlIEFORC9PUiBnYXRlcywgd2UgZGVjaWRlZCB0byB1c2Ug c2VsZW5pdW0gZGlvZGVzLiBUaGVzZSB1c3VhbGx5DQphcnJpdmVkIGluIHRoZSBmb3JtIG9mIHNl bGVuaXVtIHJlY3RpZmllcnMsIGEgc29ydCBvZiBmaXJlY3JhY2tlcnMgb2YNCnZhcnlpbmcgc2l6 ZXMsIHdoaWNoIHdlIGRpc21hbnRsZWQgdG8gZXh0cmFjdCB0aGUgaW5kaXZpZHVhbCByZWN0aWZp ZXINCnBsYXRlcywgYWJvdXQgaGFsZiB0aGUgZGlhbWV0ZXIgb2YgYSBtb2Rlcm4tZGF5IGRpbWUu IFRoZSBhc3NlbWJsee+/ve+/ve+/vXRoZQ0Kc2VsZW5pdW0gcGxhdGVzIGNvdWxkbid0IHRvbGVy YXRlIGhpZ2ggdGVtcGVyYXR1cmVzLCBzbyBzb2xkZXJpbmcgd2FzDQpvdXQgb2YgdGhlIHF1ZXN0 aW9u77+977+977+9d2FzIGFzIGZvbGxvd3M6IGhvbGVzIHdlcmUgZHJpbGxlZCBpbiBhIHRoaWNr DQpwaWVjZSBvZiBwZXJ0aW5heC4gT25lIGVuZCBvZiB0aGUgaG9sZSB3YXMgc2VhbGVkIHdpdGgg YSBtZXRhbCBwbHVnOw0KaW50byB0aGUgcmVzdWx0aW5nIHBvdCBob2xlIHdlbnQgYSBzcHJpbmcg YW5kIGEgc2VsZW5pdW0gcGxhdGUsIGFuZA0KZmluYWxseSwgdGhlIG90aGVyIGVuZCBvZiB0aGUg aG9sZSB3YXMgYWxzbyBzZWFsZWQgd2l0aCBhIG1ldGFsDQpwbHVnLiBGb3IgY29ubmVjdGluZyB0 aGUgcGx1Z3MsIHdlIHRob3VnaHQgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBzaWx2ZXIgcGFpbnQgd2FzDQphcHByb3By aWF0ZSwgYW5kIHNvb24gd2Ugd2VyZSBidXN5IHBhaW50aW5nIG91ciBmaXJzdCBvd24NCmNpcmN1 aXRzLiBTb21lIHRpbWUgbGF0ZXIsIHdlIGhhZCBwbGVudHkgb2YgcmVhc29ucyB0byBjdXJzZSB0 aGlzDQpkZWNpc2lvbi4gVGhlIHJlbGlhYmlsaXR5IG9mIHRoZXNlIGNvbm5lY3Rpb25zIHdhcyBw b29yLCB0byBwdXQgaXQNCm1pbGRseSwgYW5kIGFyb3VuZCB0aGlzIHRpbWUsIHRoZSAnaGlnaC1m cmVxdWVuY3kgaGFtbWVyJyBtdXN0IGhhdmUNCmJlZW4gaW52ZW50ZWQ6IHdlIHRvb2sgYSBzbWFs bCBoYW1tZXIgd2l0aCBhIHJ1YmJlciBoZWFkIGFuZCByYXR0bGVkDQppdCBhbG9uZyB0aGUgaGFu ZGxlcyBvZiB0aGUgdW5pdHMsIGxpa2UgYSBjaGlsZCBydW5uaW5nIGl0cyBoYW5kIGFsb25nDQp0 aGUgcmFpbGluZ3Mgb2YgYSBmZW5jZS4gSXQgcHJvdmVkIGFuIGVmZmVjdGl2ZSBtZWFucyB0byB0 dXJuDQppbnRlcm1pdHRlbnQgaW50ZXJydXB0aW9ucyBpbnRvIHBlcm1hbmVudCBvbmVzLiBJIHdv bid0IGhhemFyZCBhIGd1ZXNzDQphcyB0byBob3cgbWFueSBpbnRlcnJ1cHRpb25zIHdlIGludHJv ZHVjZWQgaW4gdGhpcyB3YXkuIEF0IGEgbGF0ZXINCnN0YWdlLCB0aGUgc2VsZW5pdW0gZGlvZGVz IHdlcmUgcmVwbGFjZWQgYnkgZ2VybWFuaXVtIGRpb2Rlcywgd2hpY2gNCndlcmUgc2ltcGx5IHNv bGRlcmVkLg0KDQpUaGUgQU5EL09SIGdhdGVzIHdlcmUgZm9sbG93ZWQgYnkgYSB0cmlvZGUgYW1w bGlmaWVyIGFuZCBhIGNhdGhvZGUNCmZvbGxvd2VyLiBBIElJIGFsc28gZ290IGEgZHJ1bSBhbmQg YSB0YXBlIHJlYWRlci4gRm9yIG91dHB1dCwgYW4NCmVsZWN0cmljIHR5cGV3cml0ZXIgd2FzIGlu c3RhbGxlZCwgd2l0aCAxNiBrZXlzIG9wZXJhYmxlIGJ5IHBsYWNpbmcNCm1hZ25ldHMgdW5kZXJu ZWF0aCB0aGVtLiBUaGUgZGVjb2RpbmcgdHJlZSBmb3IgdGhlc2UgbWFnbmV0cyBwcm92aWRlZA0K dXMgd2l0aCB0aGUgbWVhbnMgdG8gYnVpbGQgYW4gZWNoby1jaGVjaywgYW5kIERpamtzdHJhIGZh YnJpY2F0ZWQgYQ0Kcm91dGluZSB3aGVyZSwgc2ltdWx0YW5lb3VzbHkgd2l0aCBwcmludGluZyBh IG51bWJlciwgdGhlIHNhbWUgbnVtYmVyDQooaWYgYWxsIHdlbnQgd2VsbCkgd2FzIHJlY29uc3Ry dWN0ZWQuIEkgYXNzdW1lIHdlIHRodXMgaGFkIG9uZSBvZiB0aGUNCmZpcnN0IGZ1bGx5IGNvbnRy b2xsZWQgcHJpbnQgcm91dGluZXMuIENoYXJhY3RlcmlzdGljIG9mIEEgSUnvv73vv73vv71zIHNw ZWVkDQp3YXMgdGhlIHRpbWUgZm9yIGFuIGFkZGl0aW9uOiAyMCBtcyAodGhlIHRpbWUgb2YgYSBk cnVtIHJvdGF0aW9uKS4NCg0KQSBJSSBjYW1lIGludG8gb3BlcmF0aW9uIGluIERlY2VtYmVyIDE5 NTMsIHRoaXMgdGltZSB3aXRob3V0DQptaW5pc3RlcmlhbCBhc3Npc3RhbmNlLCBidXQgaXQgcGVy Zm9ybWVkIHNpZ25pZmljYW50bHkgbW9yZSB1c2VmdWwNCndvcmsgdGhhbiBpdHMgcHJlZGVjZXNz b3IsIGRlc3BpdGUgdGhlIHRlY2huaWNhbCBkaWZmaWN1bHRpZXMgb3V0bGluZWQNCmFib3ZlLg0K DQpUaGUgZGVzaWduIHBoYXNlIG9mIEEgSUkgbWFya3MgZm9yIG1lIHRoZSBwb2ludCB3aGVyZSBj b21wdXRlciBkZXNpZ24NCmJlZ2FuIHRvIGJlY29tZSBhIHByb2Zlc3Npb24uIFRoaXMgd2FzIGdy ZWF0bHkgYWlkZWQgYnkgdGhlDQppbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24gb2YgdW5pZm9ybSBidWlsZGluZyBibG9j a3MsIGRlc2NyaWJhYmxlIGluIGENCm11bHRpZGltZW5zaW9uYWwgYmluYXJ5IHN0YXRlIHNwYWNl LCBtYWtpbmcgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiB0b29scyBsaWtlDQpCb29sZWFuIGFsZ2VicmEgbWVhbmluZ2Z1 bC4gV2UgZmlndXJlZCBvdXQgaG93IHRvIHByb3ZpZGUgQVJSQSBJSSB3aXRoDQpzaWduZWQgbXVs dGlwbGljYXRpdmUgYWRkaXRpb24gZm9yIGludGVnZXJzIChpLmUuLCBhbiBvcGVyYXRpb24gb2Yg dGhlDQpmb3JtIChBLFMpIDo9IChNKSAqICjvv73vv71TJykgKyAoQSksIGZvciBhbGwgc2lnbiBj b21iaW5hdGlvbnMgb2YgKEEpLA0KKFMpLCBhbmQgKE0pIGJlZm9yZSBhbmQgb2YgdGhlIHJlc3Vs dCksIGRlc3BpdGUgdGhlIGZhY3QgdGhhdCBBUlJBIElJDQpoYWQgb25seSBhIGNvdW50ZXIgYXMg d2lkZSBhcyBhIHJlZ2lzdGVyLiBBcyBmYXIgYXMgSSBjYW4gcmVjYWxsLCB0aGlzDQp3YXMgdGhl IGZpcnN0IHRpbWUgSSBkZXZvdGVkIGEgZG9jdW1lbnQgdG8gcHJvdmluZyB0aGF0IHRoZSBwcm9w b3NlZA0Kc29sdXRpb24gd2FzIGNvcnJlY3QuIFVuZG91YnRlZGx5LCB0aGUgcHJvb2Ygd2FzIGlu IGEgZm9ybSBJIHdvdWxkIG5vdA0KYmUgc2F0aXNmaWVkIHdpdGggdG9kYXksIGJ1dCBzdGlsbC4u LiBJdCB3b3JrZWQgYXMgaW50ZW5kZWQsIGFuZCB5b3UNCmNhbiBpbWFnaW5lIG15IGFtdXNlbWVu dCB3aGVuLCB5ZWFycyBsYXRlciwgSSBsZWFybmVkIGZyb20gYSBGcmVuY2gNCmJvb2sgb24gY29t cHV0ZXJzIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBwcm9ibGVtIHdhcyBjb25zaWRlcmVkIHVuc29sdmFibGUuDQoNCklu IE1heSAxOTU0LCB3b3JrIGJlZ2FuIG9uIGEgKHNsaWdodGx5IG1vZGlmaWVkKSBjb3B5IG9mIEFS UkEgSUksIHRoZQ0KRkVSVEEgKEZva2tlcidzIEZpcnN0IENhbGN1bGF0aW5nIE1hY2hpbmUgVHlw ZSBBKSwgaW50ZW5kZWQgZm9yDQpGb2trZXIuIFRoZSBGRVJUQSB3YXMgaGFuZGVkIG92ZXIgdG8g Rm9ra2VyIGluIEFwcmlsIDE5NTUuIFRoaXMgZW50aXJlDQphZmZhaXIgd2FzIG1haW5seSBoYW5k bGVkIGJ5IEJsYWF1dyBhbmQgRGlqa3N0cmEuIFNob3J0bHkgdGhlcmVhZnRlciwNCkJsYWF1dyBs ZWZ0IHRoZSBzZXJ2aWNlIG9mIHRoZSBNYXRoZW1hdGljYWwgQ2VudGVyLg0KDQpJbiBKdW5lIDE5 NTYsIHRoZSBBUk1BQyAoQXV0b21hdGljIENhbGN1bGF0aW5nIE1hY2hpbmUgTWF0aGVtYXRpY2Fs DQpDZW50ZXIpLCBzdWNjZXNzb3IgdG8gQSBJSSwgd2FzIHB1dCBpbnRvIG9wZXJhdGlvbiwgc2V2 ZXJhbCBkb3plbg0KdGltZXMgZmFzdGVyIHRoYW4gaXRzIHByZWRlY2Vzc29yLiBEZXNpZ24gYW5k IGNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiB0b29rIGFib3V0DQox77+977+9IHllYXJzLiBXb3J0aCBtZW50aW9uaW5n IGlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIEFSTUFDIGZpcnN0IHVzZWQgY29yZXMsIGFsYmVpdA0Kb24gYSBtb2Rlc3Qg c2NhbGUgKGluIHRvdGFsIDY0IHdvcmRzIG9mIDM0IGJpdHMgZWFjaCwgSSBiZWxpZXZlKS4gRm9y DQpnZW5lcmF0aW5nIHRoZSBob3Jpem9udGFsIGFuZCB2ZXJ0aWNhbCBzZWxlY3Rpb24gY3VycmVu dHMgZm9yIHRoZXNlDQpjb3Jlcywgd2UgdXNlZCBsYXJnZSBjb3Jlcy4gVG8gZHJpdmUgdGhlc2Ug bGFyZ2UgY29yZXMsIGhvd2V2ZXIsIHRoZXkNCmhhZCB0byBiZSBlcXVpcHBlZCB3aXRoIGEgY29p bCB3aXRoIGEgcmVhc29uYWJsZSBudW1iZXIgb2YNCndpbmRpbmdzLiBFeHRlbnNpdmUgZW1icm9p ZGVyeSB3b3JrIGRpZG7vv73vv73vv710IHNlZW0gYXBwZWFsaW5nIHRvIHVzLCBzbw0KdGhlIGZv bGxvd2luZyBzb2x1dGlvbiB3YXMgZGV2aXNlZDogYSAoZmFpcmx5IGRlZXApIHJpbSB3YXMgdHVy bmVkDQpmcm9tIHRyYW5zcGFyZW50IHBsYXN0aWMuIFRodXMsIHdlIG5vdyBoYWQgdHdvIHJpbmdz OiB0aGUgcmltIGFuZCB0aGUNCmNvcmUuIFRoZSByaW0gd2FzIHNhd2VkIGF0IG9uZSBwbGFjZSwg YW5kIHRoZSBmbGV4aWJpbGl0eSBvZiB0aGUNCm1hdGVyaWFsIG1hZGUgaXQgcG9zc2libGUgdG8g aW50ZXJsb2NrIHRoZSB0d28gcmluZ3MuIFRoZW4sIHRoZSBjb2lsDQp3YXMgYXBwbGllZCB0byB0 aGUgcmltIGJ5IHJvdGF0aW5nIGl0IGZyb20gdGhlIG91dHNpZGUgdXNpbmcgYSBydWJiZXINCndo ZWVsLiBUaGUgcmVzdWx0IHdhcyBhIG5lYXRseSB3b3VuZCBjb2lsLiBUaGUgd2hvbGUgdGhpbmcg d2FzIHRoZW4NCmVuY2FzZWQgaW4gQXJhbGRpdGUuIFRoZSB1bmludGVuZGVkIHN1cnByaXNpbmcg ZWZmZWN0IHdhcyB0aGF0LCBzaW5jZQ0KdGhlIHJlZnJhY3RpdmUgaW5kaWNlcyBvZiB0aGUgcGxh c3RpYyBhbmQgQXJhbGRpdGUgYXBwYXJlbnRseSBkaWZmZXJlZA0KbGl0dGxlLCB0aGUgcGxhc3Rp YyByaW0gYmVjYW1lIGNvbXBsZXRlbHkgaW52aXNpYmxlLiBUaGUgb2JzZXJ2ZXIgc2F3DQphIGNv cmUgaW4gdGhlIEFyYWxkaXRlIHdpdGggYSBiZWF1dGlmdWxseSByZWd1bGFybHkgd291bmQgY29p bCBhcm91bmQNCml0LiBXZSBsZWZ0IG1hbnkgYSB2aXNpdG9yIGluIHRoZSBkYXJrIGZvciBxdWl0 ZSBzb21lIHRpbWUgYWJvdXQgaG93DQp3ZSBwcm9kdWNlZCB0aGVzZSB0aGluZ3MhDQoNClRoZSB0 aW1lIG9mIGFtYXRldXJpc20gd2FzIGNvbWluZyB0byBhbiBlbmQuIENvbXB1dGVycyBiZWdhbiB0 byBhcHBlYXINCm9uIHRoZSBtYXJrZXQsIGFuZCB0aGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0IG91ciBncm91cCwgd2hp Y2ggaGFkIG5vdyBncm93biB0bw0Kc2V2ZXJhbCBkb3plbiBlbXBsb3llZXMsIGRpZCBub3QgcmVh bGx5IGJlbG9uZyBpbiB0aGUgTWF0aGVtYXRpY2FsDQpDZW50ZXIgc3RhcnRlZCB0byBiZWNvbWUg cGFpbmZ1bGx5IGNsZWFyIHRvIHVzLiBHcmFkdWFsIGRpc3NvbHV0aW9uIG9mDQp0aGUgZ3JvdXAg d2FzLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UsIGFuIG9wdGlvbiwgYnV0IHRoYXQgbWVhbnQgZGVzdHJveWluZyBhIGdv b2QNCnBpZWNlIG9mIGtub3ctaG93LiBBIHNvbHV0aW9uIHdhcyBmb3VuZCB3aGVuIHRoZSBOaWxs bWlqLCB3aGljaCBoYWQNCmJlZW4gYXV0b21hdGluZyBpdHMgYWRtaW5pc3RyYXRpb24gZm9yIHNv bWUgdGltZSB1c2luZyBCdWxsIHB1bmNoIGNhcmQNCmVxdWlwbWVudCwgZGVjbGFyZWQgaXRzIHdp bGxpbmduZXNzIHRvIHRha2Ugb3ZlciBvdXIgZ3JvdXAgYXMgdGhlIGNvcmUNCm9mIGEgbmV3IER1 dGNoIGNvbXB1dGVyIGluZHVzdHJ5LiBUaHVzIGl0IGhhcHBlbmVkLiBUaGUgbmV3IGNvbXBhbnks DQpOLlYuIEVsZWt0cm9sb2dpY2EsIHdhcyBmb3JtYWxseSBlc3RhYmxpc2hlZCBpbiAxOTU2LCBh bmQgZ3JhZHVhbGx5DQpvdXIgZ3JvdXDvv73vv73vv71zIGVtcGxveWVlcyB3ZXJlIHRyYW5zZmVy cmVkIHRvIEVsZWt0cm9sb2dpY2EsIGEgcHJvY2Vzcw0KdGhhdCB3YXMgY29tcGxldGVkIHdpdGgg bXkgb3duIHRyYW5zZmVyIG9uIEphbnVhcnkgMSwgMTk1OS4gQXMgdGhlDQpmaXJzdCBjb21tZXJj aWFsIG1hY2hpbmUsIHdlIGRlc2lnbmVkIGEgZnVsbHkgdHJhbnNpc3Rvcml6ZWQgY29tcHV0ZXIs DQp0aGUgWEksIHdob3NlIHByb3RvdHlwZSBwZXJmb3JtZWQgaXRzIGZpcnN0IGNhbGN1bGF0aW9u cyBhdCB0aGUgZW5kIG9mDQoxOTU3LiBUaGUgc3BlZWQgd2FzIGFib3V0IHRlbiB0aW1lcyB0aGF0 IG9mIHRoZSBBUk1BQy4NCg0KV2l0aCB0aGlzLCBJIGNvbnNpZGVyIHRoZSBwZXJpb2QgSSBoYWQg dG8gY292ZXIgYXMgY29uY2x1ZGVkLiBXaGVuIEkNCmNvbmZyb250IG15IG1lbW9yaWVzIHdpdGgg dGhlIHRpdGxlIG9mIHRoaXMgbGVjdHVyZSwgaXQgbXVzdCBiZSBzYWlkDQp0aGF0ICdkZXNpZ25p bmcgY29tcHV0ZXJzJyBhcyBzdWNoIGhhcmRseSBleGlzdGVkOiB0aGUgYWN0aXZpdGllcyB0aGF0 DQpjb3VsZCBiZSBsYWJlbGVkIGFzIHN1Y2ggd2VyZSBhYnNvcmJlZCBpbiB0aGUgdG90YWwgb2Yg Y29uY2VybnMgdGhhdA0KZGVtYW5kZWQgb3VyIGF0dGVudGlvbi4gVGhvc2Ugd2hvIGVuZ2FnZWQg aW4gY29uc3RydWN0aW5nIGNhbGN1bGF0aW5nDQptYWNoaW5lcyBhdCB0aGF0IHRpbWUgdXN1YWxs eSB3b3JrZWQgaW4gdmVyeSBzbWFsbCB0ZWFtcyBhbmQgcGVyZm9ybWVkDQphbGwgdGhlIG5lY2Vz c2FyeSB0YXNrcy4gV2UgZGVjaWRlZCBvbiB0aGUgY29uc3RydWN0aW9uIG9mIHJhY2tzLA0KZG9v cnMsIGFuZCBjbG9zdXJlcywgdGhlIHBsYWNlbWVudCBvZiBmYW5zICh0aGUgQVJNQUMgY29uc3Vt ZWQgMTANCmtXISksIHdlIG1vdW50ZWQgcG93ZXIgZGlzdHJpYnV0aW9uIGNhYmluZXRzIGFuZCBh c3NvY2lhdGVkIHdpcmluZywgd2UNCmtuZXcgdGhlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBmdXNlcyBhbmQgY3Jvc3Mt c2VjdGlvbnMgb2YgZWxlY3RyaWNhbCBjYWJsZXMgYnkNCmhlYXJ0LCB3ZSBzb2xkZXJlZCwgd2Ug cGVlcmVkIGF0IG9zY2lsbG9ncmFwaHMsIHdlIGNsaW1iZWQgaW50byB0aGUNCm1hY2hpbmUgYXJt ZWQgd2l0aCBhIHZhY3V1bSBjbGVhbmVyIHRvIGNsZWFuIGl0LCBhbmQsIGluZGVlZCwNCnNvbWV0 aW1lcyB3ZSB3ZXJlIGFsc28gaW52b2x2ZWQgaW4gZGVzaWduLg0KDQpXZSBzaG91bGQgbm90IGlk ZWFsaXplLiBBcyB5b3UgbWF5IGhhdmUgZ2F0aGVyZWQgZnJvbSB0aGUgYWJvdmUsIHdlDQp3ZXJl IG9jY2FzaW9uYWxseSBicm91Z2h0IHRvIHRoZSBicmluayBvZiBkZXNwYWlyIGJ5IHRlY2huaWNh bA0KcHJvYmxlbXMuIEluYWRlcXVhdGUgY29tcG9uZW50cyBwbGFndWVkIHVzLCBhcyBkaWQgYSBs YWNrIG9mIGtub3dsZWRnZQ0KYW5kIGluc2lnaHQuIFRoaXMgbGFjayBleGlzdGVkIG5vdCBvbmx5 IGluIG91ciBncm91cCBidXQgZ2xvYmFsbHkgdGhlDQpmaWVsZCB3YXMgbm90IHlldCBtYXN0ZXJl ZC4NCg0KSG93ZXZlciwgaXQgd2FzIGFsc28gYSBmYXNjaW5hdGluZyB0aW1lLCBtYXJrZWQgYnkg YSBjb25zdGFudCBzZW5zZSBvZg0KJ25ldmVyIGJlZm9yZSBzZWVuLCcgYWx0aG91Z2ggdGhhdCBt YXkgbm90IGFsd2F5cyBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbGl0ZXJhbGx5DQp0cnVlLiBJdCB3YXMgYSB0aW1lIHdo ZW4gb3JnYW5pemluZyBvdmVydGltZSwgc29tZXRpbWVzIGxhc3RpbmcgYWxsDQpuaWdodCwgcG9z ZWQgbm8gcHJvYmxlbS4gSXQgd2FzIGEgdGltZSB3aGVuIHdlIGtuZXcgYSBsYXJnZSBwb3J0aW9u IG9mDQp0aGUgcGFydGljaXBhbnRzIGluIGludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgY29tcHV0ZXIgY29uZmVyZW5j ZXMgYXQgbGVhc3QgYnkNCnNpZ2h0IQ0K --===============6549263331757041139==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 23 19:32:15 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 15:31:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9199281347863565887==" --===============9199281347863565887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 23, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Gavin Scott wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> It's interesting that the designers of ARRA spoke about what they did, and= were quite honest about their mistakes. Quite refreshing. Unfortunately th= at narrative is in Dutch: "Computers ontwerpen, toen". https://ir.cwi.nl/pub= /13534/13534D.pdf One of these days I should finish my translation of that l= ecture. >=20 > ChatGPT 4o did a passable job it looks like. Very much so. Comparing it with my draft translation I'd say it is quite goo= d, much better than I'm used to from mechanical translations. paul --===============9199281347863565887==-- From rickb@bensene.com Tue Jul 23 21:20:19 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 21:20:02 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941D4ED9A0C292FB3334DA5A3A92=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0616398612832722128==" --===============0616398612832722128== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dwight wrote: > As a kid, I used a handful of radioshack relays to make a sequenced electri= cal lock. One had to > enter four each four bit numbers to turn on the lock. Any wrong number and = you had to start over. I > think that was first the first time I did a logica= l design. You'd set the 4 toggle switches for the > next number in sequence a= nd then enter it. > Not a computer but then, I was just a kid. Like minds, I guess. I did the same kind of thing when I was a kid, too. Except, we were pretty = poor, and couldn't afford Radio Shack relays. I had to make my own, out of 1= /4" plywood scraps for the base, tin snipped from coffee can lids, nails for = pivot points, wire-wound nails for electromagnets, and tacks for contacts. I= made both usual relays was well as relays with two coils, one to set the rel= ay and another to "unset" it (latching). The wiring was all telephone wire,= from a 50-pair cable that my Dad found somewhere and gave to me. My sequen= tial combination lock was for a "burglar alarm" I made for my bedroom door. I= made my own keyboards using similar materials, but mine were decimal, encode= d with diodes that a neighbor who was into electronics gave to me. The comb= ination was four digits that had to be entered in the correct order on the ke= yboard outside my door. I also had a keyboard next to my bed that allowed me= to override the alarm if someone knocked to come in, as well as to reset the= password at any time. The password was stored by sixteen of those set/rese= t latching relays. The four digit password had to be entered entirely, then = an "ENTER" key pressed, and if there was an error anywhere in the password, a= s soon as ENTER was pressed, the alarm would go off, which was a ringer salva= ged from a telephone that someone gave me. The only way to shut off the al= arm was to enter the correct code. If someone opened the bedroom door when th= e alarm was set (by entering the code) the bell would start ringing. The tra= nsformer from my train set powered the thing. It worked reliably, but my Mom= grew tired of it quickly. Not easy to enter the code with a basket-load of = clothes in her arms. I learned a lot from making that thing. The hardest p= art was making the sequencer that would step as each digit was entered, then = compared the entered digit against the corresponding digit of the stored code= . That took quite a few relays. I got quite good at making the relays so th= at they were reliable and consistent in their behavior. It was a total rats= nest of wiring on a piece of larger plywood that leaned up against a wall in= my room. =20 A few years later, I built a four-bit binary adder using a bit-serial ALU and= sequencer made with old telephone relays. The two numbers to be added were entered using a keyboard I made from a salva= ged touch tone telephone keyboard. Then, an ADD (#) button was pressed, and = the sequencer (which was made with a motor that turned a drum with contacts m= ade from sheet metal screws) would step through selecting each group of two b= its, adding them, saving the carry, and then moving onto the next two bits. = The result was displayed on five #47 lamps. It was not particularly fast; t= he fastest I could make it go would give a result in about 1/2 second. Tryin= g to run it any faster resulted in errors, probably due to issues with the de= sign rather than the relays themselves. The thing covered a tabletop, again = wired together with telephone wire. I tired of it pretty quickly because it= just added numbers. I had visions of somehow making a memory out of relays a= nd making some kind of programming method, again probably using a drum with c= ontacts that would close when a screw was screwed into the drum, such that it= could run short programs, but I didn't have the space to build out the rest = of it, so, I eventually took it apart so I could have my table back. What I'd give to be able to have all that free time during the summer when sc= hool was out. Virtually no real responsibilities (mow the yard, keep my roo= m "clean", do dishes) - just limitless time to dream up projects to build wit= h limited resources. I had no training in logic design, I just kind of figure= d it out as I went along. -Rick =20 --===============0616398612832722128==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 23 22:18:43 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:18:35 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0815437719924965979==" --===============0815437719924965979== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-07-23 1:31 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Jul 23, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Gavin Scott wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk >> wrote: >>> It's interesting that the designers of ARRA spoke about what they did, an= d were quite honest about their mistakes. Quite refreshing. Unfortunately t= hat narrative is in Dutch: "Computers ontwerpen, toen". https://ir.cwi.nl/pu= b/13534/13534D.pdf One of these days I should finish my translation of that = lecture. >> >> ChatGPT 4o did a passable job it looks like. >=20 > Very much so. Comparing it with my draft translation I'd say it is quite g= ood, much better than I'm used to from mechanical translations. >=20 > paul >=20 A very good read. Young,brave and and wiling to try new things. --===============0815437719924965979==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 23 23:30:01 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 19:29:30 -0400 Message-ID: <3C50D612-6AD5-4A52-B5EC-4FB9584E4936@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3215096211260812875==" --===============3215096211260812875== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 23, 2024, at 6:18 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2024-07-23 1:31 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> On Jul 23, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Gavin Scott wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> It's interesting that the designers of ARRA spoke about what they did, a= nd were quite honest about their mistakes. Quite refreshing. Unfortunately = that narrative is in Dutch: "Computers ontwerpen, toen". https://ir.cwi.nl/p= ub/13534/13534D.pdf One of these days I should finish my translation of that= lecture. >>>=20 >>> ChatGPT 4o did a passable job it looks like. >> Very much so. Comparing it with my draft translation I'd say it is quite = good, much better than I'm used to from mechanical translations. >> paul >=20 > A very good read. Young,brave and and wiling to try new things. Yes. And also amazingly poorly trained in practical matters. Admittedly Dut= ch universities are more narrow than American ones and more likely to emphasi= ze theory; still, it's surprising to come out with a degree in physics and ha= ve zero clue about the operation of vacuum tubes. paul --===============3215096211260812875==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 24 07:10:09 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:09:49 +0200 Message-ID: <43dec11-2e3c-297-c8bc-8ea9a37e7570@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941D4ED9A0C292FB3334DA5A3A92=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8848329564609715538==" --===============8848329564609715538== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 23 Jul 2024, dwight wrote: > Konrad Zuse made several attempts but making useful electromechanical > memory was his down fall. Huh? The Z11 was Zuse's first commercially produced machine and it was entirely relay based. It was quite successful and reliable. And this electromechanical memory (or machine) was more or less the _beginning_ of the company, not his down fall. Christian --===============8848329564609715538==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Jul 24 10:48:56 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:48:36 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8114367957831266827==" --===============8114367957831266827== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 23 Jul 2024 at 19:18, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > It's interesting that the designers of ARRA spoke about what they did, an= d were quite honest about their mistakes. Quite refreshing. Unfortunately t= hat narrative is in Dutch: "Computers ontwerpen, toen". https://ir.cwi.nl/pu= b/13534/13534D.pdf One of these days I should finish my translation of that = lecture. > > ChatGPT 4o did a passable job it looks like. I'd like to share this more widely. Any objections if I put the text on my tech blog, with credit and attribution? (Or without, if you prefer!) --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8114367957831266827==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jul 24 13:12:58 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:12:30 -0400 Message-ID: <2A86B2FE-9294-48EB-9362-D9E3448C08AC@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4532533660307947659==" --===============4532533660307947659== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 24, 2024, at 6:48 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Tue, 23 Jul 2024 at 19:18, Gavin Scott via cctalk > wrote: >>=20 >> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk >> wrote: >>> It's interesting that the designers of ARRA spoke about what they did, an= d were quite honest about their mistakes. Quite refreshing. Unfortunately t= hat narrative is in Dutch: "Computers ontwerpen, toen". https://ir.cwi.nl/pu= b/13534/13534D.pdf One of these days I should finish my translation of that = lecture. >>=20 >> ChatGPT 4o did a passable job it looks like. >=20 > I'd like to share this more widely. Any objections if I put the text > on my tech blog, with credit and attribution? (Or without, if you > prefer!) The original is here: https://ir.cwi.nl/pub/13534 and that shows the citation= you should use. paul --===============4532533660307947659==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Jul 24 15:47:09 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:47:01 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3019400298483539313==" --===============3019400298483539313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Would anyone like to rescue a vintage Pick minicomputer in Manitoba, Canada? https://discuss.systems/@ahelwer/112836345012817998 « A wide ask here so please boost: my grandfather is trying to get rid of an old business computer, and I was wondering whether any vintage computer people might want it. It was purchased for $50k from The Ultimate Corporation in the early 80s. This ran the Pick operating system, and my best guess is the hardware was originally manufactured by GE or Honeywell. It's about the size of a half-rack and currently lives in Brandon, Manitoba, Canada. It has sat covered in plastic in a chemical warehouse for the past 35 years. Where do people usually post stuff like this other than here? Thanks! » -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven IoM: +44 7624 227612 ~ UK: +44 7939-087884 ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 --===============3019400298483539313==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jul 24 16:01:38 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:00:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4351852035203529551==" --===============4351852035203529551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 2:20 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Dwight wrote: > > > As a kid, I used a handful of radioshack relays to make a sequenced > electrical lock. One had to > > enter four each four bit numbers to turn on the lock. Any wrong number > and you had to start over. I > think that was first the first time I did a > logical design. You'd set the 4 toggle switches for the > next number in > sequence and then enter it. > > Not a computer but then, I was just a kid. > > Like minds, I guess. > > I did the same kind of thing when I was a kid, too. Except, we were > pretty poor, and couldn't afford Radio Shack relays. I had to make my own, > out of 1/4" plywood scraps for the base, tin snipped from coffee can lids, > nails for pivot points, wire-wound nails for electromagnets, and tacks for > contacts. I made both usual relays was well as relays with two coils, one > to set the relay and another to "unset" it (latching). The wiring was all > telephone wire, from a 50-pair cable that my Dad found somewhere and gave > to me. My sequential combination lock was for a "burglar alarm" I made > for my bedroom door. I made my own keyboards using similar materials, but > mine were decimal, encoded with diodes that a neighbor who was into > electronics gave to me. The combination was four digits that had to be > entered in the correct order on the keyboard outside my door. I also had a > keyboard next to my bed that allowed me to override the alarm if someone > knocked to come in, as well as to reset the password at any time. The > password was stored by sixteen of those set/reset latching relays. The > four digit password had to be entered entirely, then an "ENTER" key > pressed, and if there was an error anywhere in the password, as soon as > ENTER was pressed, the alarm would go off, which was a ringer salvaged from > a telephone that someone gave me. The only way to shut off the alarm was > to enter the correct code. If someone opened the bedroom door when the > alarm was set (by entering the code) the bell would start ringing. The > transformer from my train set powered the thing. It worked reliably, but > my Mom grew tired of it quickly. Not easy to enter the code with a > basket-load of clothes in her arms. I learned a lot from making that > thing. The hardest part was making the sequencer that would step as each > digit was entered, then compared the entered digit against the > corresponding digit of the stored code. That took quite a few relays. I > got quite good at making the relays so that they were reliable and > consistent in their behavior. It was a total rats nest of wiring on a > piece of larger plywood that leaned up against a wall in my room. > > A few years later, I built a four-bit binary adder using a bit-serial ALU > and sequencer made with old telephone relays. > > The two numbers to be added were entered using a keyboard I made from a > salvaged touch tone telephone keyboard. Then, an ADD (#) button was > pressed, and the sequencer (which was made with a motor that turned a drum > with contacts made from sheet metal screws) would step through selecting > each group of two bits, adding them, saving the carry, and then moving onto > the next two bits. The result was displayed on five #47 lamps. It was > not particularly fast; the fastest I could make it go would give a result > in about 1/2 second. Trying to run it any faster resulted in errors, > probably due to issues with the design rather than the relays themselves. > The thing covered a tabletop, again wired together with telephone wire. I > tired of it pretty quickly because it just added numbers. I had visions of > somehow making a memory out of relays and making some kind of programming > method, again probably using a drum with contacts that would close when a > screw was screwed into the drum, such that it could run short programs, but > I didn't have the space to build out the rest of it, so, I eventually took > it apart so I could have my table back. > This is a very cool story, Rick. > What I'd give to be able to have all that free time during the summer when > school was out. Virtually no real responsibilities (mow the yard, keep my > room "clean", do dishes) - just limitless time to dream up projects to > build with limited resources. I had no training in logic design, I just > kind of figured it out as I went along. > Those truly were the days. Sellam --===============4351852035203529551==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Jul 24 17:01:06 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:00:57 +0100 Message-ID: <24b76094-76c2-4296-8e79-3c1ddf932fd4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2A86B2FE-9294-48EB-9362-D9E3448C08AC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4031058176528313544==" --===============4031058176528313544== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 24/07/2024 2:12 pm, Paul Koning wrote: > The original is here:https://ir.cwi.nl/pub/13534 and that shows the citatio= n you should use. Done. https://liam-on-linux.dreamwidth.org/91041.html Here's what I wrote: ARRA was the first ever Dutch computer. There's an account of its creation entitled _9.2 Computers ontwerpen,=20 toen_ ("Computer Designs, then") by the late Carel S Scholten, but sadly=20 for Anglophone readers it's in Dutch. This is a translation into English, done using ChatGPT 4o by Gavin=20 Scott. I found it readable and fun, although I have no way to judge how=20 accurate it is. --=20 Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven IoM: +44 7624 227612 ~ UK: +44 7939-087884 =C4=8CR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 --===============4031058176528313544==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jul 24 17:48:38 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:48:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0452817053482175733==" --===============0452817053482175733== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 24 Jul 2024, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Would anyone like to rescue a vintage Pick minicomputer in Manitoba, Canada? > https://discuss.systems/@ahelwer/112836345012817998 > A wide ask here so please boost: my grandfather is trying to get rid of an = > old business computer, and I was wondering whether any vintage computer=20 > people might want it. It was purchased for $50k from The Ultimate Corporati= on=20 > in the early 80s. This ran the Pick operating system, and my best guess is = > the hardware was originally manufactured by GE or Honeywell. It's about the= =20 > size of a half-rack and currently lives in Brandon, Manitoba, Canada. It ha= s=20 > sat covered in plastic in a chemical warehouse for the past 35 years. Where= =20 > do people usually post stuff like this other than here? Thanks! Sorry, no help with re-homing it. Did you know that a publisher made a series of books called "xxxx Pocket Guide" They even had one for Pick, with the obvious title! --===============0452817053482175733==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jul 24 17:57:01 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:56:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5328763198383145125==" --===============5328763198383145125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://www.amazon.com/Pick-pocket-guide-library/dp/083063245X On Wed, 24 Jul 2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 24 Jul 2024, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> Would anyone like to rescue a vintage Pick minicomputer in Manitoba,=20 >> Canada? >> https://discuss.systems/@ahelwer/112836345012817998 >> A wide ask here so please boost: my grandfather is trying to get rid of an= =20 >> old business computer, and I was wondering whether any vintage computer=20 >> people might want it. It was purchased for $50k from The Ultimate=20 >> Corporation in the early 80s. This ran the Pick operating system, and my=20 >> best guess is the hardware was originally manufactured by GE or Honeywell.= =20 >> It's about the size of a half-rack and currently lives in Brandon,=20 >> Manitoba, Canada. It has sat covered in plastic in a chemical warehouse fo= r=20 >> the past 35 years. Where do people usually post stuff like this other than= =20 >> here? Thanks! > > Sorry, no help with re-homing it. > > Did you know that a publisher made a series of books called > "xxxx Pocket Guide" > > They even had one for Pick, with the obvious title! --===============5328763198383145125==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Wed Jul 24 18:01:54 2024 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:01:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3325798440827353027==" --===============3325798440827353027== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 24 Jul 2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > https://www.amazon.com/Pick-pocket-guide-library/dp/083063245X > You can also download it (and all his other Pick books) from here: https://jes.com/downloads g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============3325798440827353027==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jul 24 19:22:00 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:21:52 -0500 Message-ID: <31c93478-6ca3-0154-7c4c-bc083b67ba43@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0109231513664403919==" --===============0109231513664403919== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/24/24 10:47, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Would anyone like to rescue a vintage Pick minicomputer in > Manitoba, Canada? > > https://discuss.systems/@ahelwer/112836345012817998 > > « > A wide ask here so please boost: my grandfather is trying > to get rid of an old business computer, and I was > wondering whether any vintage computer people might want > it. It was purchased for $50k from The Ultimate > Corporation in the early 80s. This ran the Pick operating > system, and my best guess is the hardware was originally > manufactured by GE or Honeywell. It's about the size of a > half-rack and currently lives in Brandon, Manitoba, > Canada. It has sat covered in plastic in a chemical > warehouse for the past 35 years. Where do people usually > post stuff like this other than here? Thanks! > » > The card cage has a VERY strong DEC look to it - probably LSI-11. Jon --===============0109231513664403919==-- From drb@msu.edu Wed Jul 24 19:31:38 2024 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:31:33 -0400 Message-ID: <20240724193133.A4CF051F65C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <31c93478-6ca3-0154-7c4c-bc083b67ba43@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7610705005219444370==" --===============7610705005219444370== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The card cage has a VERY strong DEC look to it - probably LSI-11. The tape drive is a rebadged Cipher streamer. The two disk are Priam devices, in spite of the Xentek label on the one. De --===============7610705005219444370==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Jul 24 19:37:15 2024 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:31:46 -0700 Message-ID: <959212A3-D67C-41EF-A5E2-19FA2680AF52@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <31c93478-6ca3-0154-7c4c-bc083b67ba43@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4216888002326947322==" --===============4216888002326947322== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jul 24, 2024, at 12:21 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On 7/24/24 10:47, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> Would anyone like to rescue a vintage Pick minicomputer in Manitoba, Canad= a? >>=20 >> https://discuss.systems/@ahelwer/112836345012817998 >>=20 >> =C2=AB >> A wide ask here so please boost: my grandfather is trying to get rid of an= old business computer, and I was wondering whether any vintage computer peop= le might want it. It was purchased for $50k from The Ultimate Corporation in = the early 80s. This ran the Pick operating system, and my best guess is the h= ardware was originally manufactured by GE or Honeywell. It's about the size o= f a half-rack and currently lives in Brandon, Manitoba, Canada. It has sat co= vered in plastic in a chemical warehouse for the past 35 years. Where do peop= le usually post stuff like this other than here? Thanks! >> =C2=BB >>=20 > The card cage has a VERY strong DEC look to it - probably LSI-11. >=20 > Jon One of the comments identified it as having a PDP-11/02 CPU. Zane --===============4216888002326947322==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Wed Jul 24 21:04:51 2024 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:04:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <959212A3-D67C-41EF-A5E2-19FA2680AF52@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8915917848875066800==" --===============8915917848875066800== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable what is this thing im up in lynn lake be down in wpg in a week witch is 2hr drive from wpg On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 3:13=E2=80=AFPM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Jul 24, 2024, at 12:21 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 7/24/24 10:47, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >> Would anyone like to rescue a vintage Pick minicomputer in Manitoba, > Canada? > >> > >> https://discuss.systems/@ahelwer/112836345012817998 > >> > >> =C2=AB > >> A wide ask here so please boost: my grandfather is trying to get rid of > an old business computer, and I was wondering whether any vintage computer > people might want it. It was purchased for $50k from The Ultimate > Corporation in the early 80s. This ran the Pick operating system, and my > best guess is the hardware was originally manufactured by GE or Honeywell. > It's about the size of a half-rack and currently lives in Brandon, > Manitoba, Canada. It has sat covered in plastic in a chemical warehouse for > the past 35 years. Where do people usually post stuff like this other than > here? Thanks! > >> =C2=BB > >> > > The card cage has a VERY strong DEC look to it - probably LSI-11. > > > > Jon > > One of the comments identified it as having a PDP-11/02 CPU. > > Zane > > > --===============8915917848875066800==-- From rick@rickmurphy.net Wed Jul 24 22:45:08 2024 From: Rick Murphy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:59:32 -0400 Message-ID: <2c11e489-8d46-4cf4-af70-51fb1d67923c@rickmurphy.net> In-Reply-To: <959212A3-D67C-41EF-A5E2-19FA2680AF52@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2931051099065258318==" --===============2931051099065258318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/24/2024 3:31 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > One of the comments identified it as having a PDP-11/02 CPU. From the photos - the CPU card is a M7270 - LSI-11/2 (dual-height LSI-11).     -Rick --===============2931051099065258318==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jul 24 23:07:37 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:07:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0558561723439352416==" --===============0558561723439352416== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is apparently an LSI/PDP-11/2 with Pick operating system On Wed, 24 Jul 2024, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > what is this thing im up in lynn lake be down in wpg in a week witch is 2hr > drive from wpg --===============0558561723439352416==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 25 09:59:35 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:59:26 +0200 Message-ID: <1965f17-7d74-8aeb-3fcb-8ae837888cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0179900051113605535==" --===============0179900051113605535== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 backplane, though I have the cards. Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD drive (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the Massbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus at all. Christian --===============0179900051113605535==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jul 25 10:42:05 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 06:41:57 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1965f17-7d74-8aeb-3fcb-8ae837888cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6499351293800480169==" --===============6499351293800480169== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The CDC test system for the RM03 is a standard SMD device. You disconnect the= Massbus interface and connect the test system where the Massbus interface wa= s connected. So the drive interface is probably standard SMD. The data transf= er of the 9762 is fairly high, so it may not work with slow controllers. > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:59 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hello all, >=20 > we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 backp= lane, though I have the cards. > Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the = Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD drive = (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). > There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't loo= k there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the Massbu= s adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus at all. >=20 > Christian --===============6499351293800480169==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 25 11:03:05 2024 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:02:52 +0200 Message-ID: <84F32553-20DE-46F1-BF14-5C2EE0A51600@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5334872028023214875==" --===============5334872028023214875== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have always heard that Dec screwed with the smd spec. Maybe not? On July 25, 2024 12:41:57 PM GMT+02:00, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: >The CDC test system for the RM03 is a standard SMD device. You disconnect th= e Massbus interface and connect the test system where the Massbus interface w= as connected. So the drive interface is probably standard SMD. The data trans= fer of the 9762 is fairly high, so it may not work with slow controllers. > >> On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:59 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> Hello all, >>=20 >> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 back= plane, though I have the cards. >> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the= Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD drive= (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't lo= ok there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the Massb= us adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus at all. >>=20 >> Christian --===============5334872028023214875==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Jul 25 12:14:30 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Relay computers Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:14:24 -0400 Message-ID: <97df1fa7-451f-4a7a-9225-d5535c5f95f1@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941D4ED9A0C292FB3334DA5A3A92=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0568539214417661804==" --===============0568539214417661804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the history of Enigma, the folk at Bletchley Park wanted to build a=20 working replica of Colossus.=C2=A0 They thought=C2=A0 that the cost of=20 manufacturing WW2-era telephone relays would be prohibitive, until they=20 found that BT was just converting all their exchanges to electronic=20 switching! cheers, Nigel On 2024-07-22 22:14, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Bob Rosenbloom started to make a relay computer, using pc boards, but found= that typical dip relays talk to each other ( leaky magnetic fields ) . > Konrad Zuse made several attempts but making useful electromechanical memor= y was his down fall. > As a kid, I used a handful of radioshack relays to make a sequenced electri= cal lock. One had to enter four each four bit numbers to turn on the lock. An= y wrong number and you had to start over. I think that was first the first ti= me I did a logical design. You'd set the 4 toggle switches for the next numbe= r in sequence and then enter it. > Not a computer but then, I was just a kid. > Dwight > > --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============0568539214417661804==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Jul 25 12:19:15 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:19:10 -0400 Message-ID: <11369662-7fd4-44bf-97fb-d52b72e5db0c@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <84F32553-20DE-46F1-BF14-5C2EE0A51600@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8229770410193347760==" --===============8229770410193347760== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have never dealt with a massbus controller but have installed many=20 9762s on Emulex controllers. One thing that the device that DEC put into=20 the drive was to do with sector and index. The bog standard drive comes=20 with them on the A cable, but in order to have multiple drives you have=20 to move them on to the B cable, which is where the controllers look for=20 them.=C2=A0 It is a tricky w/w job on the card cage backplane of the drive.= =C2=A0=20 I no longer have the procedure. IIRC the transfer rate is 9.6608 MHz - but I may be worng on that, it=20 has been a few years! cheers, Nigel On 2024-07-25 07:02, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > I have always heard that Dec screwed with the smd spec. Maybe not? > > On July 25, 2024 12:41:57 PM GMT+02:00, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: >> The CDC test system for the RM03 is a standard SMD device. You disconnect = the Massbus interface and connect the test system where the Massbus interface= was connected. So the drive interface is probably standard SMD. The data tra= nsfer of the 9762 is fairly high, so it may not work with slow controllers. >> >>> On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:59 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 bac= kplane, though I have the cards. >>> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore th= e Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD driv= e (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >>> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't l= ook there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the Mass= bus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus at all. >>> >>> Christian --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============8229770410193347760==-- From uban@ubanproductions.com Thu Jul 25 12:41:03 2024 From: Tom Uban To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 07:40:57 -0500 Message-ID: <0a77de93-7bcc-423a-9049-6f472c4129f5@ubanproductions.com> In-Reply-To: <1965f17-7d74-8aeb-3fcb-8ae837888cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8025792667892480741==" --===============8025792667892480741== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Christian, As others have indicated, the drive has an SMD interface. FWIW, I have a drive which was working when I acquired it a number of years a= go, along with a bunch=20 of disk packs and I have some emulex unibus disc controllers (SC31, SC72). If= you are interested in=20 these items, I am looking to reduce my collection (I have loads of pdp11 hard= ware). Where are you=20 located? I am in NW Indiana... --tom On 7/25/24 04:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > > we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 backp= lane, though I have the=20 > cards. > Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the = Massbus adapter in the=20 > drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD drive (at least it uses the= standard 60+26 pin=20 > cables). > There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't loo= k there. And all I=20 > could find on the net were discussions of using the Massbus adapter for nor= mal SMD drives but in=20 > my case, I don't want Massbus at all. > > Christian --===============8025792667892480741==-- From uban@ubanproductions.com Thu Jul 25 12:47:58 2024 From: Tom Uban To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 07:47:50 -0500 Message-ID: <4e08c89a-ee79-401d-8446-df90d1fda56b@ubanproductions.com> In-Reply-To: <0a77de93-7bcc-423a-9049-6f472c4129f5@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3491410285250334056==" --===============3491410285250334056== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I forgot to mention that your online resource for vintage docs is here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/ --tom On 7/25/24 07:40, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > Hi Christian, > > As others have indicated, the drive has an SMD interface. > FWIW, I have a drive which was working when I acquired it a number of years= ago, along with a=20 > bunch of disk packs and I have some emulex unibus disc controllers (SC31, S= C72). If you are=20 > interested in these items, I am looking to reduce my collection (I have loa= ds of pdp11 hardware).=20 > Where are you located? I am in NW Indiana... > > --tom > > > On 7/25/24 04:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 back= plane, though I have=20 >> the cards. >> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the= Massbus adapter in the=20 >> drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD drive (at least it uses th= e standard 60+26 pin=20 >> cables). >> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't lo= ok there. And all I=20 >> could find on the net were discussions of using the Massbus adapter for no= rmal SMD drives but in=20 >> my case, I don't want Massbus at all. >> >> Christian > --===============3491410285250334056==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 25 12:57:48 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 14:57:37 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <11369662-7fd4-44bf-97fb-d52b72e5db0c@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0315481063216916170==" --===============0315481063216916170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 25 Jul 2024, Nigel Johnson Ham wrote: > I have never dealt with a massbus controller but have installed many 9762s = on=20 > Emulex controllers. One thing that the device that DEC put into the drive w= as=20 > to do with sector and index. The bog standard drive comes with them on the = A=20 > cable, but in order to have multiple drives you have to move them on to the= B=20 > cable, which is where the controllers look for them.=C2=A0 It is a tricky w= /w job=20 > on the card cage backplane of the drive.=C2=A0 I no longer have the procedu= re. Thanks for the hint. I will compare both the standard SMD pinout and the=20 "SMD" side of the adapter. I've seen that some modern drives have jumpers to select on which cable to=20 put the I/S signals. > IIRC the transfer rate is 9.6608 MHz - but I may be worng on that, it has=20 > been a few years! Just the standard SMD drive speed and not the later SMD-E. Christian --===============0315481063216916170==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 25 12:58:58 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 14:58:50 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4e08c89a-ee79-401d-8446-df90d1fda56b@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8766203403495537616==" --===============8766203403495537616== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 25 Jul 2024, Tom Uban wrote: > I forgot to mention that your online resource for vintage docs is here: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/ I know, I'm one of the official mirror hosters of bitsavers ;-) Christian --===============8766203403495537616==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 25 12:59:57 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 14:59:49 +0200 Message-ID: <16c5ac1-e0ad-34e7-39f7-f85c1ab2587b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <0a77de93-7bcc-423a-9049-6f472c4129f5@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0332338649139576030==" --===============0332338649139576030== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 25 Jul 2024, Tom Uban wrote: > controllers (SC31, SC72). If you are interested in these items, I am lookin= g=20 > to reduce my collection (I have loads of pdp11 hardware). Where are you=20 > located? I am in NW Indiana... South Germany... Christian --===============0332338649139576030==-- From uban@ubanproductions.com Thu Jul 25 13:05:52 2024 From: Tom Uban To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:05:46 -0500 Message-ID: <4060b65a-d364-494d-99ee-971782b41190@ubanproductions.com> In-Reply-To: <16c5ac1-e0ad-34e7-39f7-f85c1ab2587b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0589349961936723460==" --===============0589349961936723460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/25/24 07:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 25 Jul 2024, Tom Uban wrote: >> controllers (SC31, SC72). If you are interested in these items, I am looki= ng to reduce my=20 >> collection (I have loads of pdp11 hardware). Where are you located? I am i= n NW Indiana... > > South Germany... > > Christian Ok, well, while I have a friend in Northern Germany (near Luebeck), it does n= ot help... --tom --===============0589349961936723460==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 25 13:05:57 2024 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:05:43 +0200 Message-ID: <6CD90C80-5A59-4401-97C4-EB629D3C2FF8@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <11369662-7fd4-44bf-97fb-d52b72e5db0c@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6549663465937281126==" --===============6549663465937281126== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting. The massbus adapters normally supported one drive per cage (I th= ink the rm05 did two) I'll have to check it out I would be happy to run my rm80 on the sc03 or uc03 controllers I have C On July 25, 2024 2:19:10 PM GMT+02:00, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >I have never dealt with a massbus controller but have installed many 9762s o= n Emulex controllers. One thing that the device that DEC put into the drive w= as to do with sector and index. The bog standard drive comes with them on the= A cable, but in order to have multiple drives you have to move them on to th= e B cable, which is where the controllers look for them.=C2=A0 It is a tricky= w/w job on the card cage backplane of the drive.=C2=A0 I no longer have the = procedure. > >IIRC the transfer rate is 9.6608 MHz - but I may be worng on that, it has be= en a few years! > >cheers, > >Nigel > > > >On 2024-07-25 07:02, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I have always heard that Dec screwed with the smd spec. Maybe not? >>=20 >> On July 25, 2024 12:41:57 PM GMT+02:00, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: >>> The CDC test system for the RM03 is a standard SMD device. You disconnect= the Massbus interface and connect the test system where the Massbus interfac= e was connected. So the drive interface is probably standard SMD. The data tr= ansfer of the 9762 is fairly high, so it may not work with slow controllers. >>>=20 >>>> On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:59 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hello all, >>>>=20 >>>> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 ba= ckplane, though I have the cards. >>>> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore t= he Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD dri= ve (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >>>> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't = look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the Mas= sbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus at al= l. >>>>=20 >>>> Christian > >--=20 >Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >Skype: TILBURY2591 > --===============6549663465937281126==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 25 13:32:12 2024 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:31:58 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0a77de93-7bcc-423a-9049-6f472c4129f5@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5877472059036843250==" --===============5877472059036843250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An rm03? I could use one for my 2020 On July 25, 2024 2:40:57 PM GMT+02:00, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >Hi Christian, > >As others have indicated, the drive has an SMD interface. >FWIW, I have a drive which was working when I acquired it a number of years = ago, along with a bunch of disk packs and I have some emulex unibus disc cont= rollers (SC31, SC72). If you are interested in these items, I am looking to r= educe my collection (I have loads of pdp11 hardware). Where are you located? = I am in NW Indiana... > >--tom > > >On 7/25/24 04:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> Hello all, >>=20 >> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 back= plane, though I have the cards. >> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the= Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD drive= (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't lo= ok there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the Massb= us adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus at all. >>=20 >> Christian > --===============5877472059036843250==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Jul 25 13:36:16 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:36:10 -0400 Message-ID: <53783601-5b65-44cd-9ab0-d290dd17515a@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4060b65a-d364-494d-99ee-971782b41190@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4143203424201402662==" --===============4143203424201402662== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-07-25 09:05, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > On 7/25/24 07:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, 25 Jul 2024, Tom Uban wrote: >>> controllers (SC31, SC72). If you are interested in these items, I am >>> looking to reduce my collection (I have loads of pdp11 hardware). >>> Where are you located? I am in NW Indiana... >> >> South Germany... >> >> Christian > > Ok, well, while I have a friend in Northern Germany (near Luebeck), it > does not help... > > --tom > IIRC the 50Hz conversion required replacing the pulleys on the main drive, probably unobtainium nowadays! cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============4143203424201402662==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 25 13:43:41 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:43:11 -0400 Message-ID: <0BD8C43B-C5B9-44C3-AC77-A1030CD392CB@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <1965f17-7d74-8aeb-3fcb-8ae837888cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6941350692237539567==" --===============6941350692237539567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:59 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hello all, >=20 > we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 backp= lane, though I have the cards. > Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the = Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD drive = (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). > There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't loo= k there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the Massbu= s adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus at all. Sure there are online manuals; look here https://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/= -- I see 9762 mentioned in the "smd" subdirectory and there is also an "smd_= interface_specs" subdirectory. paul --===============6941350692237539567==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 25 13:44:07 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:43:59 -0400 Message-ID: <5E490EAA-59CF-4CAC-A55E-FE18F0CC30A6@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <53783601-5b65-44cd-9ab0-d290dd17515a@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2112343967377883020==" --===============2112343967377883020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:36 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2024-07-25 09:05, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/25/24 07:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>> On Thu, 25 Jul 2024, Tom Uban wrote: >>>> controllers (SC31, SC72). If you are interested in these items, I am loo= king to reduce my collection (I have loads of pdp11 hardware). Where are you = located? I am in NW Indiana... >>>=20 >>> South Germany... >>>=20 >>> Christian >>=20 >> Ok, well, while I have a friend in Northern Germany (near Luebeck), it doe= s not help... >>=20 >> --tom >>=20 > IIRC the 50Hz conversion required replacing the pulleys on the main drive, = probably unobtainium nowadays! Not to anyone who has a lathe. Making a pulley is an easy job. You just nee= d to find, or calculate, the proper dimensions. paul --===============2112343967377883020==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Jul 25 15:41:05 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:40:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <53783601-5b65-44cd-9ab0-d290dd17515a@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8364564364024961812==" --===============8364564364024961812== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/25/24 08:36, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-07-25 09:05, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/25/24 07:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>> On Thu, 25 Jul 2024, Tom Uban wrote: >>>> controllers (SC31, SC72). If you are interested in >>>> these items, I am looking to reduce my collection (I >>>> have loads of pdp11 hardware). Where are you located? I >>>> am in NW Indiana... >>> >>> South Germany... >>> >>> Christian >> >> Ok, well, while I have a friend in Northern Germany (near >> Luebeck), it does not help... >> >> --tom >> > IIRC the 50Hz conversion required replacing the pulleys on > the main drive, probably unobtainium nowadays! But, those could easily be made by anybody with a lathe. Jon --===============8364564364024961812==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Thu Jul 25 16:32:17 2024 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:32:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <84F32553-20DE-46F1-BF14-5C2EE0A51600@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3218795900769415144==" --===============3218795900769415144== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 7:03=E2=80=AFAM Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > I have always heard that Dec screwed with the smd spec. Maybe not? > > On July 25, 2024 12:41:57 PM GMT+02:00, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: > >The CDC test system for the RM03 is a standard SMD device. You disconnect = the Massbus interface and connect the test system where the Massbus interface= was connected. So the drive interface is probably standard SMD. Back in the late 80s I worked for a guy at a general-purpose shop. Mostly he resold things, some over-the-counter, some custom PC builds, and some repair jobs. In house, he ran a small VAX and a couple PDP-11s. At one point, he got an RM03 or two and had me try to get them working with a 3rd-party Unibus SMD controller (his main disks were SMD). I was only about 21-22 and he knew a lot more about electronics than I did. He already had a working 9762. We compared the cards in the drive card cages (the RM03 has a different outer skin but the innards are pure CDC). There were 1-2 visible differences between how the RM03 and the 9762 were populated. We spent a few days on it, but we weren't able to get the RM03 talking to the Emulex SMD controller so we buttoned up the RM03s which ended up getting bought by my next employer (cheap backup hardware for our 160MB Fuji drive that emulated two RM03s and was the boot drive for our 11/750). So... my recommendation is to look over schematics for differences. I think there are some. With the community's present knowledge and access to tools and disposable MCUs, I think success is much more likely now than it was 35 years ago. -ethan --===============3218795900769415144==-- From ggs@shiresoft.com Thu Jul 25 18:25:46 2024 From: Guy Sotomayor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:27:38 -0700 Message-ID: <0a77171b-8727-4a19-ae1e-7de4b73770f2@shiresoft.com> In-Reply-To: <0a77de93-7bcc-423a-9049-6f472c4129f5@ubanproductions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1418558595144493918==" --===============1418558595144493918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd be interested in the unibus SMD controllers as I'm in the middle of working on an SMD emulator and it would be "nice" to be able to use one on my 11/40 (my 11/70 already has an SMD controller in the RH70 slots). TTFN - Guy On 7/25/24 05:40, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > Hi Christian, > > As others have indicated, the drive has an SMD interface. > FWIW, I have a drive which was working when I acquired it a number of > years ago, along with a bunch of disk packs and I have some emulex > unibus disc controllers (SC31, SC72). If you are interested in these > items, I am looking to reduce my collection (I have loads of pdp11 > hardware). Where are you located? I am in NW Indiana... > > --tom > > > On 7/25/24 04:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 >> backplane, though I have the cards. >> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could >> ignore the Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a >> "normal" SMD drive (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I >> can't look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of >> using the Massbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I >> don't want Massbus at all. >> >> Christian > -- TTFN - Guy --===============1418558595144493918==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Thu Jul 25 20:50:27 2024 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 20:50:19 +0000 Message-ID: <1138317078.296940.1721940619681@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1965f17-7d74-8aeb-3fcb-8ae837888cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8885830084863552218==" --===============8885830084863552218== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guten Abend Christian,=20 bei mir ist es genau umgekehrt: ich habe zwei 9762 Laufwerke in meinem Zoo, d= ie =C3=BCber SMD angesprochen werden k=C3=B6nnen und habe f=C3=BCr meine VAX = 11/750 einen passenden Massbus Controller samt Kabel und Terminatoren, aber k= eine einzige Massbus Peripherie.=20 Andreas Holz wollte mal f=C3=BCr ein ungetestetes RP06 vor knapp zehn Jahren = 500 Euro haben - das war mir einfach zu viel.=20 Solltest Du eine L=C3=B6sung finden, Dein 9762 Laufwerk =C3=BCber SMD zu betr= eiben und Interesse daran haben, den Massbus-Controller gegen Tausch oder Gel= d) abzugeben, dann melde Dich bei Gelegenheit bei mir. Ich w=C3=BCrde mich se= hr dar=C3=BCber freuen, denn dann k=C3=B6nnte ich eines der beiden Laufwerke = =C3=BCber den Massbus betreiben.=20 =C3=9Cbrigens hat DEC sehr detaillierte Dokumentation =C3=BCber die RM03 Lauf= werke: Massbus-Adapter samt dem Rest von CDC. Mit etwas Zeit sollte sich hera= usfinden lassen, ob der Massbus adapter tats=C3=A4chlich nur eine "Konverter-= Box" ist, die wiederrum an das SMD Interface angeschlossen wird, oder ob DEC = auch die CDC-eigene Elektronik angefasst hat - was ich mir nicht so recht vor= stellen kann - aber sicher bin ich mir nat=C3=BCrlich nicht.=20 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe aus Mannheim,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2024 um 11:59:39 MESZ hat Christian Corti via cctalk = Folgendes geschrieben:=20 Hello all, we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11=20 backplane, though I have the cards. Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the=20 Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD=20 drive (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't=20 look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the=20 Massbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus=20 at all. Christian --===============8885830084863552218==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Thu Jul 25 20:51:53 2024 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 20:51:46 +0000 Message-ID: <1758075982.5103.1721940706980@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1965f17-7d74-8aeb-3fcb-8ae837888cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0292612743979213249==" --===============0292612743979213249== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for the noise in German, folks,=20 that message was meant to be private. Cheers,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2024 um 11:59:39 MESZ hat Christian Corti via cctalk = Folgendes geschrieben:=20 Hello all, we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11=20 backplane, though I have the cards. Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the=20 Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD=20 drive (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't=20 look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the=20 Massbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus=20 at all. Christian --===============0292612743979213249==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 25 21:07:30 2024 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 23:07:08 +0200 Message-ID: <64525F8E-0D19-4740-9E3C-27F77EB3157E@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <0a77171b-8727-4a19-ae1e-7de4b73770f2@shiresoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3794199118470733434==" --===============3794199118470733434== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of which did any of the emulex sc univus adapters support 18 bit mod= e? On July 25, 2024 6:27:38 PM GMT+02:00, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >I'd be interested in the unibus SMD controllers as I'm in the middle of work= ing on an SMD emulator and it would be "nice" to be able to use one on my 11/= 40 (my 11/70 already has an SMD controller in the RH70 slots). > >TTFN - Guy > >On 7/25/24 05:40, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> Hi Christian, >>=20 >> As others have indicated, the drive has an SMD interface. >> FWIW, I have a drive which was working when I acquired it a number of year= s ago, along with a bunch of disk packs and I have some emulex unibus disc co= ntrollers (SC31, SC72). If you are interested in these items, I am looking to= reduce my collection (I have loads of pdp11 hardware). Where are you located= ? I am in NW Indiana... >>=20 >> --tom >>=20 >>=20 >> On 7/25/24 04:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>> Hello all, >>>=20 >>> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 bac= kplane, though I have the cards. >>> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore th= e Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD driv= e (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >>> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't l= ook there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the Mass= bus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus at all. >>>=20 >>> Christian >>=20 >--=20 >TTFN - Guy > --===============3794199118470733434==-- From uban@ubanproductions.com Thu Jul 25 21:18:44 2024 From: Tom Uban To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:18:39 -0500 Message-ID: <385d5105-b89b-4bb5-bf0a-bb7c4a35e1af@ubanproductions.com> In-Reply-To: <64525F8E-0D19-4740-9E3C-27F77EB3157E@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7761557983031990349==" --===============7761557983031990349== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/SC3151001-L_SC31tech_Nov84.pdf Page 2-1, section 2.1 says: "18-bit set of address lines" On 7/25/24 16:07, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of which did any of the emulex sc univus adapters support 18 bit m= ode? > > On July 25, 2024 6:27:38 PM GMT+02:00, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> I'd be interested in the unibus SMD controllers as I'm in the middle of wo= rking on an SMD emulator and it would be "nice" to be able to use one on my 1= 1/40 (my 11/70 already has an SMD controller in the RH70 slots). >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> On 7/25/24 05:40, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi Christian, >>> >>> As others have indicated, the drive has an SMD interface. >>> FWIW, I have a drive which was working when I acquired it a number of yea= rs ago, along with a bunch of disk packs and I have some emulex unibus disc c= ontrollers (SC31, SC72). If you are interested in these items, I am looking t= o reduce my collection (I have loads of pdp11 hardware). Where are you locate= d? I am in NW Indiana... >>> >>> --tom >>> >>> >>> On 7/25/24 04:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 ba= ckplane, though I have the cards. >>>> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore t= he Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD dri= ve (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >>>> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't = look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the Mas= sbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus at al= l. >>>> >>>> Christian >> --=20 >> TTFN - Guy >> --===============7761557983031990349==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Jul 25 23:20:45 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 19:20:39 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <64525F8E-0D19-4740-9E3C-27F77EB3157E@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6089145758385947867==" --===============6089145758385947867== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, Chris. I installed the very first Emulex SC11 controller in Canada,=20 (s/n 00019 IIRC)=C2=A0 and it was on an 18-bit machine. cheers, Nigel On 2024-07-25 17:07, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of which did any of the emulex sc univus adapters support 18 bit m= ode? > > On July 25, 2024 6:27:38 PM GMT+02:00, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> I'd be interested in the unibus SMD controllers as I'm in the middle of wo= rking on an SMD emulator and it would be "nice" to be able to use one on my 1= 1/40 (my 11/70 already has an SMD controller in the RH70 slots). >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> On 7/25/24 05:40, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi Christian, >>> >>> As others have indicated, the drive has an SMD interface. >>> FWIW, I have a drive which was working when I acquired it a number of yea= rs ago, along with a bunch of disk packs and I have some emulex unibus disc c= ontrollers (SC31, SC72). If you are interested in these items, I am looking t= o reduce my collection (I have loads of pdp11 hardware). Where are you locate= d? I am in NW Indiana... >>> >>> --tom >>> >>> >>> On 7/25/24 04:59, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 ba= ckplane, though I have the cards. >>>> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore t= he Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD dri= ve (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >>>> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't = look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the Mas= sbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus at al= l. >>>> >>>> Christian >> --=20 >> TTFN - Guy >> --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============6089145758385947867==-- From evanlinwood@hotmail.com Fri Jul 26 00:03:51 2024 From: Evan Linwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 00:03:44 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2700948717741786237==" --===============2700948717741786237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "So... my recommendation is to look over schematics for differences. I think there are some." I have some RM03's and a 9762, and this matches my understanding of these dri= ves also, in other words one or more of the cards in the RM drive itself were= modified, meaning that the MASSBUS interface doesn't connect to the drive ov= er a standard SMD interface. These cards (in the drives) are not very large o= r complex, I'm guessing it should be possible to identify the differences. Al= so please don't discard the MASSBUS adapters - they're probably of interest t= o the community! --===============2700948717741786237==-- From rickb@bensene.com Fri Jul 26 01:51:17 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 01:50:58 +0000 Message-ID: <4a571202947b4da0ac91f35fe8e79955@bensene.com> In-Reply-To: <0a77171b-8727-4a19-ae1e-7de4b73770f2@shiresoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4609873270153739359==" --===============4609873270153739359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guy wrote: > I'd be interested in the unibus SMD controllers ... I'd be interested in one also, for my 11/34A, and a couple of Fujitsu pure SM= D drives I have. Would Be a lot faster than the RL02s. -Rick Bensene firstnamelastinitial(a)lastname.com --===============4609873270153739359==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sat Jul 27 03:49:07 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 22:41:06 -0500 Message-ID: <8cc03fc3-58f3-4709-bcff-6696550f63f9@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <31c93478-6ca3-0154-7c4c-bc083b67ba43@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0517815650458687350==" --===============0517815650458687350== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All but the processor board is built by Sigma System in Anaheim, CA.  I think it's an 11/23 clone system. The owner said all of the boards were not dec, but the processor. They built a Qbus system very much like the DEC one but w/o some of the hard to find things DEC only built. thanks Jim On 7/24/24 14:21, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 7/24/24 10:47, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> Would anyone like to rescue a vintage Pick minicomputer in Manitoba, >> Canada? >> >> https://discuss.systems/@ahelwer/112836345012817998 >> >> « >> A wide ask here so please boost: my grandfather is trying to get rid >> of an old business computer, and I was wondering whether any vintage >> computer people might want it. It was purchased for $50k from The >> Ultimate Corporation in the early 80s. This ran the Pick operating >> system, and my best guess is the hardware was originally manufactured >> by GE or Honeywell. It's about the size of a half-rack and currently >> lives in Brandon, Manitoba, Canada. It has sat covered in plastic in >> a chemical warehouse for the past 35 years. Where do people usually >> post stuff like this other than here? Thanks! >> » >> > The card cage has a VERY strong DEC look to it - probably LSI-11. > > Jon --===============0517815650458687350==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sat Jul 27 03:49:17 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 22:39:18 -0500 Message-ID: <98850b43-2710-4af7-85a1-a002dee3e1bb@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2978779040306555290==" --===============2978779040306555290== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I know a lot about Ultimate systems, worked there as a developer, and have a system. I've contacted the fellow about helping with the system. It's got apparently 2 66mb Priam drives, and an F880 Cipher tape, a nice system. If anyone here rescues it, I'm glad to help.  I am in Kansas City now, a bit distant, but asked him about it.  Probably will have to help someone else with it. thanks Jim On 7/24/24 18:07, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > It is apparently an LSI/PDP-11/2 with Pick operating system > > On Wed, 24 Jul 2024, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >> what is this thing im up in lynn lake be down in wpg in a week witch >> is 2hr >> drive from wpg --===============2978779040306555290==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sat Jul 27 08:32:48 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 03:32:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1965f17-7d74-8aeb-3fcb-8ae837888cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3573762801082765407==" --===============3573762801082765407== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Are you interested in a RH11 backplane? I might have an extra one or one with boards. I believe I have the 3 flat cables that go to the transition bracket but I'm not sure about the round massbus cable. Also maybe a few packs. Thanks, Paul On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:59 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello all, > > we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 > backplane, though I have the cards. > Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the > Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD > drive (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). > There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't > look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the > Massbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus > at all. > > Christian > --===============3573762801082765407==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sat Jul 27 08:34:37 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 03:34:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7921059729509367035==" --===============7921059729509367035== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The RM03 overran the RH11, that's why DEC had the RM02. Same basic drive, just slower. On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 3:32 AM Paul Anderson wrote: > Are you interested in a RH11 backplane? I might have an extra one or one > with boards. I believe I have the 3 flat cables that go to the transition > bracket but I'm not sure about the round massbus cable. Also maybe a few > packs. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:59 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 >> backplane, though I have the cards. >> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore >> the >> Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD >> drive (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't >> look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the >> Massbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want >> Massbus >> at all. >> >> Christian >> > --===============7921059729509367035==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Jul 27 18:23:18 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 14:22:59 -0400 Message-ID: <3265294D-1963-4025-9F68-CA88413651DD@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2263336285145543413==" --===============2263336285145543413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's right. If you have an RM03, you'll need either an RH70, or a VAX. paul > On Jul 27, 2024, at 4:34 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The RM03 overran the RH11, that's why DEC had the RM02. Same basic drive, > just slower. >=20 > On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 3:32=E2=80=AFAM Paul Anderson = wrote: >=20 >> Are you interested in a RH11 backplane? I might have an extra one or one >> with boards. I believe I have the 3 flat cables that go to the transition >> bracket but I'm not sure about the round massbus cable. Also maybe a few >> packs. >>=20 >> Thanks, Paul >>=20 >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:59=E2=80=AFAM Christian Corti via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >>> Hello all, >>>=20 >>> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 >>> backplane, though I have the cards. >>> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore >>> the >>> Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD >>> drive (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >>> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't >>> look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the >>> Massbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want >>> Massbus >>> at all. >>>=20 >>> Christian >>>=20 >>=20 --===============2263336285145543413==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Sat Jul 27 18:33:55 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 14:33:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3265294D-1963-4025-9F68-CA88413651DD@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2247146145067881005==" --===============2247146145067881005== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Or a PDP-10 KS10. On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 2:23 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > That's right. If you have an RM03, you'll need either an RH70, or a VAX. > > paul > > > -- Michael Thompson --===============2247146145067881005==-- From ggs@shiresoft.com Sun Jul 28 00:06:48 2024 From: Guy Sotomayor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 16:50:30 -0700 Message-ID: <40f6549e-0263-4d7f-ac27-13bf527ab533@shiresoft.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1423161124488755028==" --===============1423161124488755028== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I *might* also have an RH11 backplane along with the card.  I also just found at least one "bulkhead" connector that allows one to plug in massbus cables (which I also have a number of). Let me know what you're interested in and we can see about a deal.  ;-) TTFN - Guy On 7/27/24 01:32, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Are you interested in a RH11 backplane? I might have an extra one or one > with boards. I believe I have the 3 flat cables that go to the transition > bracket but I'm not sure about the round massbus cable. Also maybe a few > packs. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:59 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 >> backplane, though I have the cards. >> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore the >> Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD >> drive (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't >> look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the >> Massbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want Massbus >> at all. >> >> Christian >> -- TTFN - Guy --===============1423161124488755028==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Sun Jul 28 01:42:13 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Macintosh Plus clone Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 21:41:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1492244372086710073==" --===============1492244372086710073== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I came across this today: “Electronics engineer builds 1986 Macintosh Plus clone”. Is there some reason one would want to do this? Not sure what the point is but it proves it can be done! Happy computing. Murray 🙂 --===============1492244372086710073==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jul 28 02:31:16 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Macintosh Plus clone Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 19:31:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3965364292233974503==" --===============3965364292233974503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 27 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I came across this today: “Electronics engineer builds 1986 Macintosh Plus > clone”. Is there some reason one would want to do this? Not sure what the > point is but it proves it can be done! You could write a small section of your book on David Small Rather than recreate the whole computer, he created a cartridge to convert an Atari ST into a Macintoch emulator. ("Magic Sac", and "Spectre 128") https://www.atarimagazines.com/startv3n6/mac_pc_on_st.php https://lowendmac.com/2016/atari-st-magic-sac-spectre-128-and-spectre-gcr/ -- Grumpy Ol' Fred --===============3965364292233974503==-- From cz@bunsen.crystel.com Sun Jul 28 13:30:50 2024 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 11:32:04 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8256175114393474448==" --===============8256175114393474448== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure. I have enough spare boards to make another rh11 and while I have some p= acks extras are handy. Let=E2=80=99s chat next week when I am back C Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 27, 2024, at 10:34=E2=80=AFAM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThe RM03 overran the RH11, that's why DEC had the RM02. Same basic= drive, > just slower. >=20 >> On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 3:32=E2=80=AFAM Paul Anderson wrote: >>=20 >> Are you interested in a RH11 backplane? I might have an extra one or one >> with boards. I believe I have the 3 flat cables that go to the transition >> bracket but I'm not sure about the round massbus cable. Also maybe a few >> packs. >>=20 >> Thanks, Paul >>=20 >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:59=E2=80=AFAM Christian Corti via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >>> Hello all, >>>=20 >>> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 >>> backplane, though I have the cards. >>> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore >>> the >>> Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD >>> drive (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >>> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't >>> look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the >>> Massbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want >>> Massbus >>> at all. >>>=20 >>> Christian >>>=20 >>=20 --===============8256175114393474448==-- From cz@bunsen.crystel.com Sun Jul 28 13:30:55 2024 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 11:32:55 +0000 Message-ID: <839689B1-0ABB-45B7-8D08-2E0E8C247CBB@bunsen.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2297386387137579233==" --===============2297386387137579233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unless you enable hog mode dma. Works but then you can=E2=80=99t reliably use= other dma devices on the Unibus.=20 Like like that Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 27, 2024, at 10:34=E2=80=AFAM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThe RM03 overran the RH11, that's why DEC had the RM02. Same basic= drive, > just slower. >=20 >> On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 3:32=E2=80=AFAM Paul Anderson wrote: >>=20 >> Are you interested in a RH11 backplane? I might have an extra one or one >> with boards. I believe I have the 3 flat cables that go to the transition >> bracket but I'm not sure about the round massbus cable. Also maybe a few >> packs. >>=20 >> Thanks, Paul >>=20 >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:59=E2=80=AFAM Christian Corti via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >>> Hello all, >>>=20 >>> we now have a RM03 drive, but are missing all the cables and the RH11 >>> backplane, though I have the cards. >>> Since the drive itself is a CDC 9762 I was wondering if I could ignore >>> the >>> Massbus adapter in the drive cabinet and use the CDC as a "normal" SMD >>> drive (at least it uses the standard 60+26 pin cables). >>> There are no service manuals/schematics of the drive itself, so I can't >>> look there. And all I could find on the net were discussions of using the >>> Massbus adapter for normal SMD drives but in my case, I don't want >>> Massbus >>> at all. >>>=20 >>> Christian >>>=20 >>=20 --===============2297386387137579233==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 29 08:50:45 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RM03 / CDC 9762 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:50:34 +0200 Message-ID: <5aa9a97f-d6b0-fc9e-1938-5248435d3f55@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <3265294D-1963-4025-9F68-CA88413651DD@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6138541915066684399==" --===============6138541915066684399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 27 Jul 2024, Paul Anderson wrote: > That's right. If you have an RM03, you'll need either an RH70, or a VAX. Well then I guess that I'm out of business, at least for connecting the drive to a RH11. I admit that I don't know the origin of the drive and the RH11 cards, the owner passed away and I picked up some stuff as the garage/cellar has to be cleared. So I will either look for trading the drive for a stock 9762, or try to convert it back to a standard SMD drive. But this will be a project for the future. Christian --===============6138541915066684399==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Mon Jul 29 13:19:31 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 09:19:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6598209853173301986==" --===============6598209853173301986== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for $50,000 – US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM’s version thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, moreso than what 8-bit machines could do! Happy computing. Murray🙂 --===============6598209853173301986==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Jul 29 19:26:10 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Macintosh Plus clone Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:25:53 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0015780659091506541==" --===============0015780659091506541== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 at 03:18, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > I came across this today: “Electronics engineer builds 1986 Macintosh Plus > clone”. Is there some reason one would want to do this? Not sure what the > point is but it proves it can be done! It can be done on a Raspberry Pi Pico, a sub-$1 microcontroller. https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/18/apples_macintosh_128k_on_a_pico/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============0015780659091506541==-- From thedestructionchannel2000@gmail.com Mon Jul 29 19:40:09 2024 From: CJ Reha To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Macintosh Plus clone Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:39:51 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3551091232610145123==" --===============3551091232610145123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SE's occasionally get battery bombed and I'm imagining that's the case in mind, similar to the reproduction SE/30 boards (though they get it much worse as the caps leak too). But even beyond that it's a pretty neat project. CJ On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 10:18 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I came across this today: “Electronics engineer builds 1986 Macintosh Plus > clone”. Is there some reason one would want to do this? Not sure what the > point is but it proves it can be done! > > Happy computing. > > Murray 🙂 > --===============3551091232610145123==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 29 23:19:08 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Norton Utilities on 5.25" floppies Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:18:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1729759982252359022==" --===============1729759982252359022== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have Norton Utilities on 5.25" floppies. I don't have a drive so I don't know whether they're readable. They're yours if you send me a PDF of a shipping label for 8"x10"x1" 8oz. Van Snyder 2229 Shields Street La Crescenta, CA 91214 van.snyder(a)sbcglobal.net --===============1729759982252359022==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 30 00:21:30 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 17:21:24 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3835268661521260373==" --===============3835268661521260373== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for $50,000 > =E2=80=93 US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM=E2=80= =99s version > thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, moreso than what > 8-bit machines could do! Ah, but there is so much more to the story, which deserves an entire=20 chapter in the history. More than you wanted to know? : (but even more details available if you real= ly want them) Tim Paterson, of Seattle Computer Products was developing 8086 hardware,=20 but CP/M-86 was delayed. So, he wrote a temporary place-holder to use=20 instead of CP/M-86 until CP/M-86 became available. That was called=20 "QDOS", "Quick and Dirty Operating System". Later it became known as=20 "SCP-DOS" and/or "86-DOS" Then came the "culture clash" between IBM and Digital Research=20 (previously known as "Intergalctic digital Research"). That has been=20 documented elsewhere; some claim that there was not a culture clash, nor=20 an error. So, Microsoft (possibly Bill Gates personally) went down the street to=20 Seattle Computer Products, and bought an unlimited license for 86-DOS=20 "that we can sell to our [un-named] client" Tim Paterson, who later opened "Falcon Technologies" and Seattle Computer=20 Products both also retained licenes to be able to sell "the=20 operating system". Note that the version was not specified, as to whether=20 such license would include rights to sell updated versions; that error=20 (failure to specify whether future/derivative products were included) has=20 been repeated elsewhere (cf. Apple/Microsoft) Microsoft also hired Tim Paterson to maintain and update "MS-DOS". Microsoft sold a license to IBM, where it became PC-DOS. And, it was available through Lifeboat as "86-DOS" In August 1981, when the PC (5150) was released, IBM started selling=20 PC-DOS. But digital Research was not happy with IBM selling a copy of=20 their operating system.=20 In those days, selling a copy was legal, if the internal code was not=20 copied. (hence the development of "clean-room reverse engineering") It wasn't until the Lotus/Paperback Software (Adam Osborne)=20 lawsuit that "look and feel" became copyrightable. So, IBM agreed to also sell CP/M-86 IN ADDITION to selling PC-DOS. . . . and sold UCSD P-System. But CP/M-86 was STILL not ready, so everybody bought PC-DOS, many of whom=20 planned to switch to CP/M-86 when it became available. But, when CP/M-86 was finally ready, the price was $240 vs $40 for PC-DOS. There are arguments about whether IBM or Digital Research set that price. Although, if that price was IBM's idea, then why did Digital Research=20 charge $240 for copies sold through other sources (such as Lifeboat)? Initially MS-DOS and PC-DOS differed only in name and trivial items, such=20 as "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" being renamed "IBMBIO.COM" and "IBMDOS.COM" When changes were made, Microsoft's and IBM's version numbers were=20 separated. Thus 1.00 was the same for both IBM released PC-DOS 1.10, and Microsoft released MS-DOS 1.25 2.00 was the same for both 2.10 VS 2.11 (IBM needed trivial changes to 2.00 to deal with the=20 excessively slow Qumetrak 142 disk drives in the PC-Junior and "portable" 3.00 was the same 3.10, adding network support and the "network redirector for CD-ROMs 3.20 VS 3.21, adding "720K" 3.5" drive support 3.30 VS 3.31, BUT 3.31 was the first to support larger than 32Mebibyte drive= s! 4.00 and 4.01 IBM/Microsoft did not provide third party vendors enough=20 advanced warning, so Norton Utilities, etc. did not work on 4.00 (NOT=20 4.00 did not work with Norton Utilities!) 5.00 In 6.00 each company bundled a whole bunch of third party stuff (such as=20 disk compression) and each got them from different sources.=20 When Microsoft's disk compression was blamed for serious problems caused=20 by SMARTDRV, Microsoft released 6.20 (repaired and reliability improved=20 from 6.00). Then 6.21 and 6.22 as a result of Microsoft's legal case with Stac=20 Electronics. Please note that MS-DOS/PC-DOS ALWAYS had a version number, a period, and=20 then a TWO DIGIT DECIMAL sub-version number. THAT is what is stored=20 internally. Thus, 1.10 is stored as ONE.TEN (01h.0Ah), 3.31 is actually=20 THREE.Thirty-ONE (03h.1Fh), etc. If there had ever actually been a "1.1" or "3.2", those would have been=20 01h.01h (1.01) and 03h.02h (3.02), etc. "1.1" was NOT the same as "1.10", nor "3.2" the same as "3.20", otherwise=20 VERY minor changes would be confused with serious changes, as happened=20 when some people called 4.01 "four point one". Later still, Seattle Computer Products was on the rocks. There was some=20 speculation that AT&T might buy it, to get the DOS license (and not have=20 to pay royalties per copy!). After some legal animosity, Microsoft did=20 the right and smart thing, and bought Seattle Computer Products, thus=20 closing that vulnerability. Windows originally started as an add-on command processor and user=20 interface on top of DOS. Windows95 made that invisibly seamless, so the=20 user never saw a DOS prompt without explicitly asking for it. Windows 95=20 still contained DOS (7.00), but the user never saw it. Gordon Letwin at Microsoft developed OS/2. But Microsoft sold it off to=20 IBM, and it became known as an IBM product. Microsoft used some key technology from it in developing WindowsNT. Within Microsoft's offerings, NT competed with non-NT windows, such as=20 Windows95, Windows98, and Windows2000. Windows[NT] Vista, XP, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 continued, and the old Windows was=20 "deprecated'. Naming a version after the year it is released is great for sales in the=20 first year, and a serious liability in subsequent years, unless there is=20 actually going to be a new version every year (as automobiles do) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3835268661521260373==-- From d44617665@hotmail.com Tue Jul 30 01:01:33 2024 From: David Wise To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 01:01:10 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8469345832046234607==" --===============8469345832046234607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Windows 2000 is NT-based. Dave Wise ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 5:21 PM To: Murray McCullough via cctalk Cc: Fred Cisin Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for $50,000 > =E2=80=93 US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM=E2=80= =99s version > thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, moreso than what > 8-bit machines could do! Ah, but there is so much more to the story, which deserves an entire chapter in the history. More than you wanted to know? : (but even more details available if you real= ly want them) Tim Paterson, of Seattle Computer Products was developing 8086 hardware, but CP/M-86 was delayed. So, he wrote a temporary place-holder to use instead of CP/M-86 until CP/M-86 became available. That was called "QDOS", "Quick and Dirty Operating System". Later it became known as "SCP-DOS" and/or "86-DOS" Then came the "culture clash" between IBM and Digital Research (previously known as "Intergalctic digital Research"). That has been documented elsewhere; some claim that there was not a culture clash, nor an error. So, Microsoft (possibly Bill Gates personally) went down the street to Seattle Computer Products, and bought an unlimited license for 86-DOS "that we can sell to our [un-named] client" Tim Paterson, who later opened "Falcon Technologies" and Seattle Computer Products both also retained licenes to be able to sell "the operating system". Note that the version was not specified, as to whether such license would include rights to sell updated versions; that error (failure to specify whether future/derivative products were included) has been repeated elsewhere (cf. Apple/Microsoft) Microsoft also hired Tim Paterson to maintain and update "MS-DOS". Microsoft sold a license to IBM, where it became PC-DOS. And, it was available through Lifeboat as "86-DOS" In August 1981, when the PC (5150) was released, IBM started selling PC-DOS. But digital Research was not happy with IBM selling a copy of their operating system. In those days, selling a copy was legal, if the internal code was not copied. (hence the development of "clean-room reverse engineering") It wasn't until the Lotus/Paperback Software (Adam Osborne) lawsuit that "look and feel" became copyrightable. So, IBM agreed to also sell CP/M-86 IN ADDITION to selling PC-DOS. . . . and sold UCSD P-System. But CP/M-86 was STILL not ready, so everybody bought PC-DOS, many of whom planned to switch to CP/M-86 when it became available. But, when CP/M-86 was finally ready, the price was $240 vs $40 for PC-DOS. There are arguments about whether IBM or Digital Research set that price. Although, if that price was IBM's idea, then why did Digital Research charge $240 for copies sold through other sources (such as Lifeboat)? Initially MS-DOS and PC-DOS differed only in name and trivial items, such as "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" being renamed "IBMBIO.COM" and "IBMDOS.COM" When changes were made, Microsoft's and IBM's version numbers were separated. Thus 1.00 was the same for both IBM released PC-DOS 1.10, and Microsoft released MS-DOS 1.25 2.00 was the same for both 2.10 VS 2.11 (IBM needed trivial changes to 2.00 to deal with the excessively slow Qumetrak 142 disk drives in the PC-Junior and "portable" 3.00 was the same 3.10, adding network support and the "network redirector for CD-ROMs 3.20 VS 3.21, adding "720K" 3.5" drive support 3.30 VS 3.31, BUT 3.31 was the first to support larger than 32Mebibyte drive= s! 4.00 and 4.01 IBM/Microsoft did not provide third party vendors enough advanced warning, so Norton Utilities, etc. did not work on 4.00 (NOT 4.00 did not work with Norton Utilities!) 5.00 In 6.00 each company bundled a whole bunch of third party stuff (such as disk compression) and each got them from different sources. When Microsoft's disk compression was blamed for serious problems caused by SMARTDRV, Microsoft released 6.20 (repaired and reliability improved from 6.00). Then 6.21 and 6.22 as a result of Microsoft's legal case with Stac Electronics. Please note that MS-DOS/PC-DOS ALWAYS had a version number, a period, and then a TWO DIGIT DECIMAL sub-version number. THAT is what is stored internally. Thus, 1.10 is stored as ONE.TEN (01h.0Ah), 3.31 is actually THREE.Thirty-ONE (03h.1Fh), etc. If there had ever actually been a "1.1" or "3.2", those would have been 01h.01h (1.01) and 03h.02h (3.02), etc. "1.1" was NOT the same as "1.10", nor "3.2" the same as "3.20", otherwise VERY minor changes would be confused with serious changes, as happened when some people called 4.01 "four point one". Later still, Seattle Computer Products was on the rocks. There was some speculation that AT&T might buy it, to get the DOS license (and not have to pay royalties per copy!). After some legal animosity, Microsoft did the right and smart thing, and bought Seattle Computer Products, thus closing that vulnerability. Windows originally started as an add-on command processor and user interface on top of DOS. Windows95 made that invisibly seamless, so the user never saw a DOS prompt without explicitly asking for it. Windows 95 still contained DOS (7.00), but the user never saw it. Gordon Letwin at Microsoft developed OS/2. But Microsoft sold it off to IBM, and it became known as an IBM product. Microsoft used some key technology from it in developing WindowsNT. Within Microsoft's offerings, NT competed with non-NT windows, such as Windows95, Windows98, and Windows2000. Windows[NT] Vista, XP, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 continued, and the old Windows was "deprecated'. Naming a version after the year it is released is great for sales in the first year, and a serious liability in subsequent years, unless there is actually going to be a new version every year (as automobiles do) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8469345832046234607==-- From d44617665@hotmail.com Tue Jul 30 01:22:56 2024 From: David Wise To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 01:22:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0549140072196187273==" --===============0549140072196187273== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will never forget Windows ME. Bleargh! Dave I wrote PC BIOS code for Phoenix Technologies from 1996 to 2023, we had to su= ffer through every Windows release as old stuff broke and had to be fixed. ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 6:05 PM To: David Wise Cc: Murray McCullough via cctalk Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Sorry, I can never remember which is which between Windows 2000 and Windows ME ("Millenium Edition") On Tue, 30 Jul 2024, David Wise wrote: > I think Windows 2000 is NT-based. > > Dave Wise > ________________________________ > From: Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 5:21 PM > To: Murray McCullough via cctalk > Cc: Fred Cisin > Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for $50,000 >> =E2=80=93 US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM=E2=80= =99s version >> thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, moreso than what >> 8-bit machines could do! > > Ah, but there is so much more to the story, which deserves an entire > chapter in the history. > > More than you wanted to know? : (but even more details available if you re= ally want them) > > Tim Paterson, of Seattle Computer Products was developing 8086 hardware, > but CP/M-86 was delayed. So, he wrote a temporary place-holder to use > instead of CP/M-86 until CP/M-86 became available. That was called > "QDOS", "Quick and Dirty Operating System". Later it became known as > "SCP-DOS" and/or "86-DOS" > > Then came the "culture clash" between IBM and Digital Research > (previously known as "Intergalctic digital Research"). That has been > documented elsewhere; some claim that there was not a culture clash, nor > an error. > > So, Microsoft (possibly Bill Gates personally) went down the street to > Seattle Computer Products, and bought an unlimited license for 86-DOS > "that we can sell to our [un-named] client" > > Tim Paterson, who later opened "Falcon Technologies" and Seattle Computer > Products both also retained licenes to be able to sell "the > operating system". Note that the version was not specified, as to whether > such license would include rights to sell updated versions; that error > (failure to specify whether future/derivative products were included) has > been repeated elsewhere (cf. Apple/Microsoft) > > Microsoft also hired Tim Paterson to maintain and update "MS-DOS". > > Microsoft sold a license to IBM, where it became PC-DOS. > And, it was available through Lifeboat as "86-DOS" > > In August 1981, when the PC (5150) was released, IBM started selling > PC-DOS. But digital Research was not happy with IBM selling a copy of > their operating system. > In those days, selling a copy was legal, if the internal code was not > copied. (hence the development of "clean-room reverse engineering") > It wasn't until the Lotus/Paperback Software (Adam Osborne) > lawsuit that "look and feel" became copyrightable. > > So, IBM agreed to also sell CP/M-86 IN ADDITION to selling PC-DOS. > . . . and sold UCSD P-System. > > But CP/M-86 was STILL not ready, so everybody bought PC-DOS, many of whom > planned to switch to CP/M-86 when it became available. > But, when CP/M-86 was finally ready, the price was $240 vs $40 for PC-DOS. > There are arguments about whether IBM or Digital Research set that price. > Although, if that price was IBM's idea, then why did Digital Research > charge $240 for copies sold through other sources (such as Lifeboat)? > > > Initially MS-DOS and PC-DOS differed only in name and trivial items, such > as "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" being renamed "IBMBIO.COM" and "IBMDOS.COM" > When changes were made, Microsoft's and IBM's version numbers were > separated. > Thus 1.00 was the same for both > IBM released PC-DOS 1.10, and Microsoft released MS-DOS 1.25 > 2.00 was the same for both > 2.10 VS 2.11 (IBM needed trivial changes to 2.00 to deal with the > excessively slow Qumetrak 142 disk drives in the PC-Junior and "portable" > 3.00 was the same > 3.10, adding network support and the "network redirector for CD-ROMs > 3.20 VS 3.21, adding "720K" 3.5" drive support > 3.30 VS 3.31, BUT 3.31 was the first to support larger than 32Mebibyte dri= ves! > 4.00 and 4.01 IBM/Microsoft did not provide third party vendors enough > advanced warning, so Norton Utilities, etc. did not work on 4.00 (NOT > 4.00 did not work with Norton Utilities!) > 5.00 > In 6.00 each company bundled a whole bunch of third party stuff (such as > disk compression) and each got them from different sources. > When Microsoft's disk compression was blamed for serious problems caused > by SMARTDRV, Microsoft released 6.20 (repaired and reliability improved > from 6.00). > Then 6.21 and 6.22 as a result of Microsoft's legal case with Stac > Electronics. > > > Please note that MS-DOS/PC-DOS ALWAYS had a version number, a period, and > then a TWO DIGIT DECIMAL sub-version number. THAT is what is stored > internally. Thus, 1.10 is stored as ONE.TEN (01h.0Ah), 3.31 is actually > THREE.Thirty-ONE (03h.1Fh), etc. > If there had ever actually been a "1.1" or "3.2", those would have been > 01h.01h (1.01) and 03h.02h (3.02), etc. > "1.1" was NOT the same as "1.10", nor "3.2" the same as "3.20", otherwise > VERY minor changes would be confused with serious changes, as happened > when some people called 4.01 "four point one". > > > Later still, Seattle Computer Products was on the rocks. There was some > speculation that AT&T might buy it, to get the DOS license (and not have > to pay royalties per copy!). After some legal animosity, Microsoft did > the right and smart thing, and bought Seattle Computer Products, thus > closing that vulnerability. > > Windows originally started as an add-on command processor and user > interface on top of DOS. Windows95 made that invisibly seamless, so the > user never saw a DOS prompt without explicitly asking for it. Windows 95 > still contained DOS (7.00), but the user never saw it. > > > Gordon Letwin at Microsoft developed OS/2. But Microsoft sold it off to > IBM, and it became known as an IBM product. > Microsoft used some key technology from it in developing WindowsNT. > Within Microsoft's offerings, NT competed with non-NT windows, such as > Windows95, Windows98, and Windows2000. > Windows[NT] Vista, XP, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 continued, and the old Windows was > "deprecated'. > > > Naming a version after the year it is released is great for sales in the > first year, and a serious liability in subsequent years, unless there is > actually going to be a new version every year (as automobiles do) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0549140072196187273==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 30 01:44:37 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 18:44:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCYXPR84MB3515C810F78A405CD1B69B39AEB02=40CYXPR84MB?= =?utf-8?q?3515=2ENAMPRD84=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0233064233116369001==" --===============0233064233116369001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After having extensively used every version of Pc-DOS and MS-DOS,=20 including some obscure variants, and Windows 3.00, 3.10, 3.11, I used=20 Windows 95, and then windows 98 and Wndows NT 4.51, and then SKIPPED to XP=20 and then Windows 7. I have yet to see any benefit to me of windows 8, 9, 10, or 11, other than "Warnings" that I get on Windows 7 about it being discontinued. I never used Windows 2000, Windows ME, nor Windows Vista. Ironically, one of the colleges that I taught at was "Vista College".=20 while Windows Vista was still "in bloom", they went about changing the=20 name of the college to "Berkeley City College", in spite of my pleas to=20 keep the name "Vista" for a while longer, at least in parallel, to cash in=20 on "Learn Wndows Vista at Vista college". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Tue, 30 Jul 2024, David Wise wrote: > I will never forget Windows ME. Bleargh! > > Dave > > I wrote PC BIOS code for Phoenix Technologies from 1996 to 2023, we had to = suffer through every Windows release as old stuff broke and had to be fixed. > ________________________________ > From: Fred Cisin > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 6:05 PM > To: David Wise > Cc: Murray McCullough via cctalk > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS > > Sorry, > I can never remember which is which between Windows 2000 > and Windows ME ("Millenium Edition") > > On Tue, 30 Jul 2024, David Wise wrote: > >> I think Windows 2000 is NT-based. >> >> Dave Wise >> ________________________________ --===============0233064233116369001==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 30 01:47:32 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS (fwd) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 18:47:23 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7288169156067101280==" --===============7288169156067101280== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did not show up on the list, so I am forwarding another copy; sorry if there are duplicates On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for $50,000 > US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM's version > thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, moreso than what > 8-bit machines could do! There are conflicting reports that list that price as $25,000, $50,000, or=20 $75,000, although there is suppoirt for each for example: https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=3D99 "for $50,000 or $75,000, depending on how the cost is calculated." The price that IBM paid Microsoft is stated variously as $25,000, $50,000, to= =20 $430,000 Great detail, but a few items are arguable: https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-rise-of-dos-how-microsoft-got-the-ibm-pc-os-co= ntract "By most accounts, Nishi was the one most strongly in favor of Microsoft=20 getting into the operating system world. Allen said in his autobiography Idea= =20 Man that Gates was less enthusiastic. Allen called Seattle Computer Products = owner Rod Brock and licensed QDOS for $10,000 plus a royalty of $15,000 for=20 every company that licensed the software." "In Big Blues: The Unmaking of IBM, Sams is quoted as saying Gates told him=20 about QDOS and offered it to IBM. "The question was: Do you want to buy it or= =20 do you want me to buy it?" Sams said. Since IBM had already had decided to go= =20 with an open architecture, the company wanted Microsoft to purchase QDOS.=20 Besides, Sams said, "If we'd bought the software, we'd have just screwed it=20 up." "According to Allen, under the contract signed that November, IBM agreed to p= ay=20 Microsoft a total of $430,000, including $45,000 for what would end up being = called DOS, $310,000 for the various 16-bit languages, and $75,000 for=20 "adaptions, testing and consultation." In contrast, the TV "Pirates of the Valley" made the false and absurd claim=20 that bill Gates cold-called IBM to convince them to get an operating system! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7288169156067101280==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Tue Jul 30 02:30:27 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:30:15 -0700 Message-ID: <13dbe306-ebd5-410c-8680-1a4b3c9aa4cb@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8292506482243637302==" --===============8292506482243637302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Ironically, one of the colleges that I taught at was "Vista College". while > Windows Vista was still "in bloom", they went about changing the name of the > college to "Berkeley City College", in spite of my pleas to keep the name > "Vista" for a while longer, at least in parallel, to cash in on "Learn Wndo= ws > Vista at Vista college". Perhaps they could have simply called it "Windows Vista College." They could hand out diplomas that if you remodel your house too noticeably, they become invalid and you're forced to be an undergraduate until you call in to get a n= ew one. Great at parties. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The World is Not Enough" ------------------------= -- --===============8292506482243637302==-- From norwayjose@mac.com Tue Jul 30 02:34:35 2024 From: Rod Bartlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:28:05 -0400 Message-ID: <8C18EC20-B62A-4DE6-A649-1492A1B94BDF@mac.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9201012643323477629==" --===============9201012643323477629== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I found Tim Peterson's old blog a while back which contained some interesting= tidbits about the history of DOS from the original author. http://dosmandrivel.blogspot.com/ - Rod > On Jul 29, 2024, at 8:21=E2=80=AFPM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for $50,000 >> =E2=80=93 US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM=E2=80= =99s version >> thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, moreso than what >> 8-bit machines could do! >=20 > Ah, but there is so much more to the story, which deserves an entire chapte= r in the history. >=20 > More than you wanted to know? : (but even more details available if you re= ally want them) >=20 > Tim Paterson, of Seattle Computer Products was developing 8086 hardware, bu= t CP/M-86 was delayed. So, he wrote a temporary place-holder to use instead = of CP/M-86 until CP/M-86 became available. That was called "QDOS", "Quick an= d Dirty Operating System". Later it became known as "SCP-DOS" and/or "86-DOS" >=20 > Then came the "culture clash" between IBM and Digital Research (previously = known as "Intergalctic digital Research"). That has been documented elsewher= e; some claim that there was not a culture clash, nor an error. >=20 > So, Microsoft (possibly Bill Gates personally) went down the street to Seat= tle Computer Products, and bought an unlimited license for 86-DOS "that we ca= n sell to our [un-named] client" >=20 > Tim Paterson, who later opened "Falcon Technologies" and Seattle Computer P= roducts both also retained licenes to be able to sell "the operating system".= Note that the version was not specified, as to whether such license would i= nclude rights to sell updated versions; that error (failure to specify whethe= r future/derivative products were included) has been repeated elsewhere (cf. = Apple/Microsoft) >=20 > Microsoft also hired Tim Paterson to maintain and update "MS-DOS". >=20 > Microsoft sold a license to IBM, where it became PC-DOS. > And, it was available through Lifeboat as "86-DOS" >=20 > In August 1981, when the PC (5150) was released, IBM started selling PC-DOS= . But digital Research was not happy with IBM selling a copy of their operat= ing system. In those days, selling a copy was legal, if the internal code was= not copied. (hence the development of "clean-room reverse engineering") > It wasn't until the Lotus/Paperback Software (Adam Osborne) lawsuit that "l= ook and feel" became copyrightable. >=20 > So, IBM agreed to also sell CP/M-86 IN ADDITION to selling PC-DOS. > . . . and sold UCSD P-System. >=20 > But CP/M-86 was STILL not ready, so everybody bought PC-DOS, many of whom p= lanned to switch to CP/M-86 when it became available. > But, when CP/M-86 was finally ready, the price was $240 vs $40 for PC-DOS. > There are arguments about whether IBM or Digital Research set that price. > Although, if that price was IBM's idea, then why did Digital Research charg= e $240 for copies sold through other sources (such as Lifeboat)? >=20 >=20 > Initially MS-DOS and PC-DOS differed only in name and trivial items, such a= s "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" being renamed "IBMBIO.COM" and "IBMDOS.COM" > When changes were made, Microsoft's and IBM's version numbers were separate= d. > Thus 1.00 was the same for both > IBM released PC-DOS 1.10, and Microsoft released MS-DOS 1.25 > 2.00 was the same for both > 2.10 VS 2.11 (IBM needed trivial changes to 2.00 to deal with the excessive= ly slow Qumetrak 142 disk drives in the PC-Junior and "portable" > 3.00 was the same > 3.10, adding network support and the "network redirector for CD-ROMs > 3.20 VS 3.21, adding "720K" 3.5" drive support > 3.30 VS 3.31, BUT 3.31 was the first to support larger than 32Mebibyte dri= ves! > 4.00 and 4.01 IBM/Microsoft did not provide third party vendors enough adv= anced warning, so Norton Utilities, etc. did not work on 4.00 (NOT 4.00 did n= ot work with Norton Utilities!) > 5.00 > In 6.00 each company bundled a whole bunch of third party stuff (such as di= sk compression) and each got them from different sources. When Microsoft's di= sk compression was blamed for serious problems caused by SMARTDRV, Microsoft = released 6.20 (repaired and reliability improved from 6.00). > Then 6.21 and 6.22 as a result of Microsoft's legal case with Stac Electron= ics. >=20 >=20 > Please note that MS-DOS/PC-DOS ALWAYS had a version number, a period, and t= hen a TWO DIGIT DECIMAL sub-version number. THAT is what is stored internall= y. Thus, 1.10 is stored as ONE.TEN (01h.0Ah), 3.31 is actually THREE.Thirty-= ONE (03h.1Fh), etc. > If there had ever actually been a "1.1" or "3.2", those would have been 01h= .01h (1.01) and 03h.02h (3.02), etc. > "1.1" was NOT the same as "1.10", nor "3.2" the same as "3.20", otherwise V= ERY minor changes would be confused with serious changes, as happened when so= me people called 4.01 "four point one". >=20 >=20 > Later still, Seattle Computer Products was on the rocks. There was some sp= eculation that AT&T might buy it, to get the DOS license (and not have to pay= royalties per copy!). After some legal animosity, Microsoft did the right a= nd smart thing, and bought Seattle Computer Products, thus closing that vulne= rability. >=20 > Windows originally started as an add-on command processor and user interfac= e on top of DOS. Windows95 made that invisibly seamless, so the user never s= aw a DOS prompt without explicitly asking for it. Windows 95 still contained= DOS (7.00), but the user never saw it. >=20 >=20 > Gordon Letwin at Microsoft developed OS/2. But Microsoft sold it off to IB= M, and it became known as an IBM product. > Microsoft used some key technology from it in developing WindowsNT. > Within Microsoft's offerings, NT competed with non-NT windows, such as Wind= ows95, Windows98, and Windows2000. > Windows[NT] Vista, XP, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 continued, and the old Windows was "= deprecated'. >=20 >=20 > Naming a version after the year it is released is great for sales in the fi= rst year, and a serious liability in subsequent years, unless there is actual= ly going to be a new version every year (as automobiles do) >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============9201012643323477629==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 30 03:14:13 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:14:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8C18EC20-B62A-4DE6-A649-1492A1B94BDF@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0770886877857572696==" --===============0770886877857572696== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Rod Bartlett wrote: > I found Tim Peterson's old blog a while back which contained some interesti= ng tidbits about the history of DOS from the original author. > http://dosmandrivel.blogspot.com/ thank you, that is a very useful reference, although it is only part of the=20 "elephant" --===============0770886877857572696==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 30 03:16:58 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:16:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <13dbe306-ebd5-410c-8680-1a4b3c9aa4cb@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6804879977306242076==" --===============6804879977306242076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Ironically, one of the colleges that I taught at was "Vista College". while >> Windows Vista was still "in bloom", they went about changing the name of t= he >> college to "Berkeley City College", in spite of my pleas to keep the name >> "Vista" for a while longer, at least in parallel, to cash in on "Learn Wnd= ows >> Vista at Vista college". On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > Perhaps they could have simply called it "Windows Vista College." They could > hand out diplomas that if you remodel your house too noticeably, they become > invalid and you're forced to be an undergraduate until you call in to get a= new > one. Great at parties. One of my proposals was to call the building that we were in, "Berkeley=20 city College, Vista Campus", which would let people include or not=20 include "Vista" as needed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6804879977306242076==-- From dave.dunfield@gmail.com Tue Jul 30 03:35:51 2024 From: Dave Dunfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 03:35:45 +0000 Message-ID: <172231054590.4006402.14694839871284987446@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCYXPR84MB3515C810F78A405CD1B69B39AEB02=40CYXPR84MB?= =?utf-8?q?3515=2ENAMPRD84=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2933897667416297985==" --===============2933897667416297985== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I can never remember which is which between Windows 2000 > and Windows ME ("Millenium Edition") IIRC (It's been a long time) - 3.1, 95, 98 and ME were all on top of DOS NT, 2000, XP, Vista, 7, 10+ were all NT FWIW - At one time IBM actually gave-away PC-DOS - as part of a free "IBM Ser= verGuide Scriptine toolkit" A little project I did a while back, DBBD - "DosBox Boot Dos" made up a little set of files and a command to easily boot various actual DOS distributions under DosBox (I still sometime need to do/check something in ac= tual DOS) - I included every DOS I could find freely available, including the abov= e mentioned PC-DOS, FreeDos, Caldera OpenDos and PTS DOS - but I've never seen any versio= n of MS-DOS available like that! Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Perso= nal --===============2933897667416297985==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Tue Jul 30 03:48:14 2024 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:47:55 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6172998497163593689==" --===============6172998497163593689== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 6:21=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for > $50,000 > > =E2=80=93 US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM=E2= =80=99s version > > thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, moreso than > what > > 8-bit machines could do! > > Ah, but there is so much more to the story, which deserves an entire > chapter in the history. > > More than you wanted to know? : (but even more details available if you > really want them) > ... > Initially MS-DOS and PC-DOS differed only in name and trivial items, such > as "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" being renamed "IBMBIO.COM" and "IBMDOS.COM" > When changes were made, Microsoft's and IBM's version numbers were > separated. > Thus 1.00 was the same for both > IBM released PC-DOS 1.10, and Microsoft released MS-DOS 1.25 > 2.00 was the same for both > The DEC Rainbow had initially a 2.01 and later 2.05 version. > 2.10 VS 2.11 (IBM needed trivial changes to 2.00 to deal with the > excessively slow Qumetrak 142 disk drives in the PC-Junior and "portable" > And then upgraded to 2.11 quickly when it was available... > 3.00 was the same > 3.10, adding network support and the "network redirector for CD-ROMs > Later, there was 3.10 (from Ford, semi-bootleg) and then 3.10a and 3.10b (from suitable solutions).... and not 3.11 and 3.12 like I'd half expected... > 3.20 VS 3.21, adding "720K" 3.5" drive support > Yea, I had to write IMPDRIVE because I could get 3.5" drives for no money, but not SS iDrive at the time to get this... > 3.30 VS 3.31, BUT 3.31 was the first to support larger than 32Mebibyte > drives! > I'd wished that there would have been a 3.30 Rainbow port for bigger disks, but no joy... But the native controllers maxed out at 67MB and the 'modded' controllers with one more bit for I think heads (using the next version of the WD chip) could do 134MB.... But it was all too little too late (I've seen 2 Rainbows with this mod, not my own alas)... This side trip down memory lane brought to you by one motor, two disks RX-50... Warner --===============6172998497163593689==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 30 04:08:29 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:08:24 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0334518363987652608==" --===============0334518363987652608== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Warner Losh wrote: > The DEC Rainbow had initially a 2.01 and later 2.05 version. Yes, some OEM licensers made significant changes, particularly when PC-DOS and "vanilla" MS-DOS didn't handle their disk formats. And many companies started to use 3.5" drives or 80 track DD 5.25" drives before DOS 3.30, which was the first official support. So, you may see various version 2.11 with "720K" drive support. Including the IBM PC-JX > Later, there was 3.10 (from Ford, semi-bootleg) and then 3.10a and 3.10b > (from suitable Letters appended were often modifications made by the OEM. For example, Gavilan used MS-DOS version 2.11, but had their own format. It wasn't until revision J, K, or L that they supported the "ordinary" "720K" format. Note that although the Gavilan came with either a 3.0" drive, or a 3.5" single sided drive, it supported 3.5" double sided. so, you could replace the drive with a double sided 3.5". Their drive bezel was proprietary, but some brands would fit without bezel, and the bezel form Gavilan's Shugart SA300 drive would fit Shugart SA350. --===============0334518363987652608==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jul 30 04:09:09 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:09:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8C18EC20-B62A-4DE6-A649-1492A1B94BDF@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1255873501138639168==" --===============1255873501138639168== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Rod Bartlett wrote: > I found Tim Peterson's old blog a while back which contained some interesti= ng tidbits about the history of DOS from the original author. > http://dosmandrivel.blogspot.com/ I did find one unimportant error, He said that DOS 1.10 supported both double sided, and 9 sectors per=20 track. That may have been what he wished for, but I'm pretty sure that what=20 Microsoft actually released was DOS 1.10/1.25 supported double sided 8=20 sectors per track (up from single sided in DOS 1.00), (SOME OEM versions of 1.25 support 8" disks!) and DOS 2.00 supported 9 sectors per track (Plus enormous other major=20 changes, such as the "file handle" API, added to the existing "FCB" API. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1255873501138639168==-- From ggs@shiresoft.com Tue Jul 30 05:24:29 2024 From: Guy Sotomayor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:38:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5756329632363884845==" --===============5756329632363884845== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/29/24 17:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > Gordon Letwin at Microsoft developed OS/2.  But Microsoft sold it off > to IBM, and it became known as an IBM product. > Umm, no.  OS/2 was a joint development effort between IBM and Microsoft.  IBM had actually started work on it first and enlisted Microsoft early on mainly because they wanted an OS that wasn't viewed as something just by IBM (e.g. they wanted broad industry support).  That all went away when Bill decided to take Microsoft their own way. I was not a fan of OS/2 while at IBM but it was a decent OS.  I was on the "mode switch task force" which argued against using that crazy feature of the 286/386 and argued that the "new" OS should move directly to the 386 but we were overridden by management due to schedule constraints.  As it turned out OS/2 was very late and the the 386 was (more or less) on time which was the main argument from management (OS/2 would *only* take 9 months...it was more like 18 and the 386 would be late just like the 286 and it wasn't). -- TTFN - Guy --===============5756329632363884845==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 30 05:24:37 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:24:27 -0600 Message-ID: <9335a110-671c-4200-9ec0-33078caea8d6@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2623629585877097137==" --===============2623629585877097137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-07-29 10:09 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Rod Bartlett wrote: >> I found Tim Peterson's old blog a while back which contained some >> interesting tidbits about the history of DOS from the original author. >> http://dosmandrivel.blogspot.com/ > > I did find one unimportant error, > He said that DOS 1.10 supported both double sided, and 9 sectors per track. > > That may have been what he wished for, but I'm pretty sure that what > Microsoft actually released was DOS 1.10/1.25 supported double sided 8 > sectors per track (up from single sided in DOS 1.00), > (SOME OEM versions of 1.25 support 8" disks!) > > and DOS 2.00 supported 9 sectors per track (Plus enormous other major > changes, such as the "file handle" API, added to the existing "FCB" API. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com 2.0 was better but not quite a finished product. Xenix... It planned over time to improve MS-DOS so it would be almost indistinguishable from single-user Xenix, or XEDOS, which would also run on the 68000, Z8000, and LSI-11; they would be upwardly compatible with Xenix, which Byte in 1983 described as "the multi-user MS-DOS of the future". Microsoft's Chris Larson described MS-DOS 2.0's Xenix compatibility as "the second most important feature".] His company advertised DOS and Xenix together, describing MS-DOS 2.0 (its "single-user OS") as sharing features and system calls with Xenix ("the multi-user, multi-tasking, Unix-derived operating system"), and promising easy porting between them. --===============2623629585877097137==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Tue Jul 30 08:42:12 2024 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 09:42:04 +0100 Message-ID: <104701dae25c$5aedbf50$10c93df0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCYXPR84MB35152AFD3F475CE3F1C8B77CAEB02=40CYXPR84MB?= =?utf-8?q?3515=2ENAMPRD84=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7030603992151915205==" --===============7030603992151915205== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: David Wise via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2024 2:01 AM > To: Murray McCullough via cctalk > Cc: David Wise > Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS > > I think Windows 2000 is NT-based. > Yes it started life as NT5 but at some point in got renamed to 2000 and DEC Alpha support was dropped. I may have some NT5 Beta CDs in the loft. Dave > Dave Wise > ________________________________ > From: Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 5:21 PM > To: Murray McCullough via cctalk > Cc: Fred Cisin > Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for > > $50,000 - US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM's > > version thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, > > moreso than what 8-bit machines could do! > > Ah, but there is so much more to the story, which deserves an entire chapter in > the history. > > More than you wanted to know? : (but even more details available if you really > want them) > > Tim Paterson, of Seattle Computer Products was developing 8086 hardware, but > CP/M-86 was delayed. So, he wrote a temporary place-holder to use instead of > CP/M-86 until CP/M-86 became available. That was called "QDOS", "Quick and > Dirty Operating System". Later it became known as "SCP-DOS" and/or "86-DOS" > > Then came the "culture clash" between IBM and Digital Research (previously > known as "Intergalctic digital Research"). That has been documented > elsewhere; some claim that there was not a culture clash, nor an error. > > So, Microsoft (possibly Bill Gates personally) went down the street to Seattle > Computer Products, and bought an unlimited license for 86-DOS "that we can > sell to our [un-named] client" > > Tim Paterson, who later opened "Falcon Technologies" and Seattle Computer > Products both also retained licenes to be able to sell "the operating system". > Note that the version was not specified, as to whether such license would > include rights to sell updated versions; that error (failure to specify whether > future/derivative products were included) has been repeated elsewhere (cf. > Apple/Microsoft) > > Microsoft also hired Tim Paterson to maintain and update "MS-DOS". > > Microsoft sold a license to IBM, where it became PC-DOS. > And, it was available through Lifeboat as "86-DOS" > > In August 1981, when the PC (5150) was released, IBM started selling PC-DOS. > But digital Research was not happy with IBM selling a copy of their operating > system. > In those days, selling a copy was legal, if the internal code was not copied. > (hence the development of "clean-room reverse engineering") It wasn't until the > Lotus/Paperback Software (Adam Osborne) lawsuit that "look and feel" became > copyrightable. > > So, IBM agreed to also sell CP/M-86 IN ADDITION to selling PC-DOS. > . . . and sold UCSD P-System. > > But CP/M-86 was STILL not ready, so everybody bought PC-DOS, many of whom > planned to switch to CP/M-86 when it became available. > But, when CP/M-86 was finally ready, the price was $240 vs $40 for PC-DOS. > There are arguments about whether IBM or Digital Research set that price. > Although, if that price was IBM's idea, then why did Digital Research charge > $240 for copies sold through other sources (such as Lifeboat)? > > > Initially MS-DOS and PC-DOS differed only in name and trivial items, such as > "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" being renamed "IBMBIO.COM" and "IBMDOS.COM" > When changes were made, Microsoft's and IBM's version numbers were > separated. > Thus 1.00 was the same for both > IBM released PC-DOS 1.10, and Microsoft released MS-DOS 1.25 > 2.00 was the same for both > 2.10 VS 2.11 (IBM needed trivial changes to 2.00 to deal with the excessively > slow Qumetrak 142 disk drives in the PC-Junior and "portable" > 3.00 was the same > 3.10, adding network support and the "network redirector for CD-ROMs > 3.20 VS 3.21, adding "720K" 3.5" drive support > 3.30 VS 3.31, BUT 3.31 was the first to support larger than 32Mebibyte drives! > 4.00 and 4.01 IBM/Microsoft did not provide third party vendors enough > advanced warning, so Norton Utilities, etc. did not work on 4.00 (NOT > 4.00 did not work with Norton Utilities!) > 5.00 > In 6.00 each company bundled a whole bunch of third party stuff (such as disk > compression) and each got them from different sources. > When Microsoft's disk compression was blamed for serious problems caused by > SMARTDRV, Microsoft released 6.20 (repaired and reliability improved from > 6.00). > Then 6.21 and 6.22 as a result of Microsoft's legal case with Stac Electronics. > > > Please note that MS-DOS/PC-DOS ALWAYS had a version number, a period, and > then a TWO DIGIT DECIMAL sub-version number. THAT is what is stored > internally. Thus, 1.10 is stored as ONE.TEN (01h.0Ah), 3.31 is actually > THREE.Thirty-ONE (03h.1Fh), etc. > If there had ever actually been a "1.1" or "3.2", those would have been 01h.01h > (1.01) and 03h.02h (3.02), etc. > "1.1" was NOT the same as "1.10", nor "3.2" the same as "3.20", otherwise VERY > minor changes would be confused with serious changes, as happened when > some people called 4.01 "four point one". > > > Later still, Seattle Computer Products was on the rocks. There was some > speculation that AT&T might buy it, to get the DOS license (and not have to pay > royalties per copy!). After some legal animosity, Microsoft did the right and > smart thing, and bought Seattle Computer Products, thus closing that > vulnerability. > > Windows originally started as an add-on command processor and user interface > on top of DOS. Windows95 made that invisibly seamless, so the user never saw > a DOS prompt without explicitly asking for it. Windows 95 still contained DOS > (7.00), but the user never saw it. > > > Gordon Letwin at Microsoft developed OS/2. But Microsoft sold it off to IBM, > and it became known as an IBM product. > Microsoft used some key technology from it in developing WindowsNT. > Within Microsoft's offerings, NT competed with non-NT windows, such as > Windows95, Windows98, and Windows2000. > Windows[NT] Vista, XP, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 continued, and the old Windows was > "deprecated'. > > > Naming a version after the year it is released is great for sales in the first year, > and a serious liability in subsequent years, unless there is actually going to be a > new version every year (as automobiles do) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7030603992151915205==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Jul 30 11:58:32 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 07:58:05 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <104701dae25c$5aedbf50$10c93df0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4573655355849990821==" --===============4573655355849990821== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pretty much, though Windows2000 was a significant redesign over NT4. I was one of the first users of NT4 at the IEEE Computer Society in the early 90's. We ran it on TALOS, the 8 CPU NCR 3550 system and it was one of the first truly SMP systems out there (with dual Microchannel busses as well). We needed the power because it ran the Computer Society's Digital Library, a neat set of hacks running on Netscape commerce server, a SGML-HTML converter called DynaWeb and a custom little program that I wrote to convert TEK math into gifs to embed into the HTML documents so the math looked perfect. For this kind of highly distributed process (call the server to get the page, Dynaweb to render the text and fonts, and TEK to convert all the formula to embedded graphics) we really needed all the CPU power we could get and frequently had the system running 8 CPUs at 70%-80%. Ultimately we upgraded it to 16 Pentium Pro/200 CPUs and finally to 16 Pentium Pro Overdrives running at 333mhz* The big problem with NT was that the TCP/IP stack kept crashing. Ran out of memory even though we had 512mb of memory in this beast. I then remembered my RSX11M days and how M systems would crash with out of memory errors with plenty of free memory in RMD. In that case unterminated RS232 connections were picking up interference and were sending streams of text to the TT: driver. This would run the system out of pool and since the pool partition was a fixed region size it would sink the server. Worked with Microsoft and sure enough: The issue was system controlled partitions with the TCP/IP driver being loaded into a partition that had limited memory. For NT they patched it, but for Windows 2000 they flattened the former various partitions into what was essentially GEN. Yes, they were stunned that we figured this out. Yes, there are boot options in 2000 to fix all this. But Windows 2000 was a re-architected version of NT that people hated because of the GUI. So they dusted up the GUI with Windows 98's stuff and released it as XP. Rest was history.... CZ * Yes, you could run 16 Pentium overdrive chips even though their design limited SMP to two CPUs. The trick was the NCR 3550's Pentium Pro board had 4 chips on it but they ran in pairs of two. In other words two PPro's communicated to a L3 cache controller which then used its' own glue logic to connect to one side of the dual 256 bit wide memory buses. So to the CPUs they just saw their neighbor. The other pair of two CPUs was connected its own level 3 cache that hooked into the second 256 bit memory bus which went to the 4 memory cards (dual ported cards). The two MCA channels also attached to the big bus, one per side. Thus it was possible to have both MCA channels doing DMA at full blast speed to memory and the system would just take it. We duplexed the drives and got amazing performance with RAID5 on each bus. The only trick to this was that processes would rip like hell in cache if they stayed on their own PPro CPU (running out of L1/L2 cache) and would run fast if they were within their pair of processors (dump L1/L2, but L3 was super quick). What slowed you down was if the process was moved to another board which meant you had to reload L1, L2, AND L3 cache which was a serious time sink. 256 bit memory fetch ahead helped, but it would cause cache storms on the system as processes started leaping around on a full system. The solution was to use process affinity to essentially "carve" the system up into 8 regions of two processors and have affinity prefer to keep certain processes (Dynaweb got 8 of the CPUs, TEK got 4, and Netscape/OS got the last 4) close to their CPUs when possible. But if a CPU was totally idle and a neighboring cluster was asking for more TEK math converters the system would start up new processes on the unused processor (no real cache hit) but not move it off there till it terminated (most were short lived) Fascinating times. We really had a lot of fun with that box. In a way, it was the SMP RSX11M+ I always wanted to play with. On 7/30/2024 4:42 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Wise via cctalk >> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2024 2:01 AM >> To: Murray McCullough via cctalk >> Cc: David Wise >> Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS >> >> I think Windows 2000 is NT-based. >> > > Yes it started life as NT5 but at some point in got renamed to 2000 and DEC > Alpha support was dropped. I may have some NT5 Beta CDs in the loft. > > Dave > > >> Dave Wise >> ________________________________ >> From: Fred Cisin via cctalk >> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 5:21 PM >> To: Murray McCullough via cctalk >> Cc: Fred Cisin >> Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS >> >> On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >>> I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for >>> $50,000 - US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM's >>> version thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, >>> moreso than what 8-bit machines could do! >> >> Ah, but there is so much more to the story, which deserves an entire > chapter in >> the history. >> >> More than you wanted to know? : (but even more details available if you > really >> want them) >> >> Tim Paterson, of Seattle Computer Products was developing 8086 hardware, > but >> CP/M-86 was delayed. So, he wrote a temporary place-holder to use instead > of >> CP/M-86 until CP/M-86 became available. That was called "QDOS", "Quick > and >> Dirty Operating System". Later it became known as "SCP-DOS" and/or > "86-DOS" >> >> Then came the "culture clash" between IBM and Digital Research (previously >> known as "Intergalctic digital Research"). That has been documented >> elsewhere; some claim that there was not a culture clash, nor an error. >> >> So, Microsoft (possibly Bill Gates personally) went down the street to > Seattle >> Computer Products, and bought an unlimited license for 86-DOS "that we can >> sell to our [un-named] client" >> >> Tim Paterson, who later opened "Falcon Technologies" and Seattle Computer >> Products both also retained licenes to be able to sell "the operating > system". >> Note that the version was not specified, as to whether such license would >> include rights to sell updated versions; that error (failure to specify > whether >> future/derivative products were included) has been repeated elsewhere (cf. >> Apple/Microsoft) >> >> Microsoft also hired Tim Paterson to maintain and update "MS-DOS". >> >> Microsoft sold a license to IBM, where it became PC-DOS. >> And, it was available through Lifeboat as "86-DOS" >> >> In August 1981, when the PC (5150) was released, IBM started selling > PC-DOS. >> But digital Research was not happy with IBM selling a copy of their > operating >> system. >> In those days, selling a copy was legal, if the internal code was not > copied. >> (hence the development of "clean-room reverse engineering") It wasn't > until the >> Lotus/Paperback Software (Adam Osborne) lawsuit that "look and feel" > became >> copyrightable. >> >> So, IBM agreed to also sell CP/M-86 IN ADDITION to selling PC-DOS. >> . . . and sold UCSD P-System. >> >> But CP/M-86 was STILL not ready, so everybody bought PC-DOS, many of whom >> planned to switch to CP/M-86 when it became available. >> But, when CP/M-86 was finally ready, the price was $240 vs $40 for PC-DOS. >> There are arguments about whether IBM or Digital Research set that price. >> Although, if that price was IBM's idea, then why did Digital Research > charge >> $240 for copies sold through other sources (such as Lifeboat)? >> >> >> Initially MS-DOS and PC-DOS differed only in name and trivial items, such > as >> "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" being renamed "IBMBIO.COM" and "IBMDOS.COM" >> When changes were made, Microsoft's and IBM's version numbers were >> separated. >> Thus 1.00 was the same for both >> IBM released PC-DOS 1.10, and Microsoft released MS-DOS 1.25 >> 2.00 was the same for both >> 2.10 VS 2.11 (IBM needed trivial changes to 2.00 to deal with the > excessively >> slow Qumetrak 142 disk drives in the PC-Junior and "portable" >> 3.00 was the same >> 3.10, adding network support and the "network redirector for CD-ROMs >> 3.20 VS 3.21, adding "720K" 3.5" drive support >> 3.30 VS 3.31, BUT 3.31 was the first to support larger than 32Mebibyte > drives! >> 4.00 and 4.01 IBM/Microsoft did not provide third party vendors enough >> advanced warning, so Norton Utilities, etc. did not work on 4.00 (NOT >> 4.00 did not work with Norton Utilities!) >> 5.00 >> In 6.00 each company bundled a whole bunch of third party stuff (such as > disk >> compression) and each got them from different sources. >> When Microsoft's disk compression was blamed for serious problems caused > by >> SMARTDRV, Microsoft released 6.20 (repaired and reliability improved from >> 6.00). >> Then 6.21 and 6.22 as a result of Microsoft's legal case with Stac > Electronics. >> >> >> Please note that MS-DOS/PC-DOS ALWAYS had a version number, a period, and >> then a TWO DIGIT DECIMAL sub-version number. THAT is what is stored >> internally. Thus, 1.10 is stored as ONE.TEN (01h.0Ah), 3.31 is actually >> THREE.Thirty-ONE (03h.1Fh), etc. >> If there had ever actually been a "1.1" or "3.2", those would have been > 01h.01h >> (1.01) and 03h.02h (3.02), etc. >> "1.1" was NOT the same as "1.10", nor "3.2" the same as "3.20", otherwise > VERY >> minor changes would be confused with serious changes, as happened when >> some people called 4.01 "four point one". >> >> >> Later still, Seattle Computer Products was on the rocks. There was some >> speculation that AT&T might buy it, to get the DOS license (and not have > to pay >> royalties per copy!). After some legal animosity, Microsoft did the right > and >> smart thing, and bought Seattle Computer Products, thus closing that >> vulnerability. >> >> Windows originally started as an add-on command processor and user > interface >> on top of DOS. Windows95 made that invisibly seamless, so the user never > saw >> a DOS prompt without explicitly asking for it. Windows 95 still contained > DOS >> (7.00), but the user never saw it. >> >> >> Gordon Letwin at Microsoft developed OS/2. But Microsoft sold it off to > IBM, >> and it became known as an IBM product. >> Microsoft used some key technology from it in developing WindowsNT. >> Within Microsoft's offerings, NT competed with non-NT windows, such as >> Windows95, Windows98, and Windows2000. >> Windows[NT] Vista, XP, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 continued, and the old Windows was >> "deprecated'. >> >> >> Naming a version after the year it is released is great for sales in the > first year, >> and a serious liability in subsequent years, unless there is actually > going to be a >> new version every year (as automobiles do) >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============4573655355849990821==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Jul 30 12:30:37 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 13:30:21 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2287391904412069018==" --===============2287391904412069018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 30 Jul 2024 at 01:28, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Gordon Letwin at Microsoft developed OS/2. But Microsoft sold it off to > IBM, and it became known as an IBM product. That is not quite how I remember it... > Microsoft used some key technology from it in developing WindowsNT. > Within Microsoft's offerings, NT competed with non-NT windows, such as > Windows95, Windows98, and Windows2000. One small slip here: The DOS-based versions were 95 (& (& 95A, 95B, & 95C), 98 (& 98SE) and ME. Windows 2000 is NT 5.0. > Naming a version after the year it is released is great for sales in the > first year, and a serious liability in subsequent years, unless there is > actually going to be a new version every year (as automobiles do) Agreed. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============2287391904412069018==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Jul 30 12:34:17 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 13:34:01 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <104701dae25c$5aedbf50$10c93df0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2191196077145520734==" --===============2191196077145520734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 30 Jul 2024 at 09:42, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > Yes it started life as NT5 but at some point in got renamed to 2000 and DEC > Alpha support was dropped. I may have some NT5 Beta CDs in the loft. I think *all* the non-Intel versions were dropped, weren't they? There was an unreleased 64-bit Alpha built. It was rediscovered and shared last year. I wrote about it. https://www.theregister.com/2023/05/19/first_64bit_windows/ More recently someone has written a bootloader and firmware to run NT PowerPC on G3 PowerMacs. You can install NT 4 on a "Bondi Blue" iMac now! https://www.theregister.com/2024/07/17/windows_nt_on_powermac_g3/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============2191196077145520734==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Tue Jul 30 16:10:22 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Macintosh Plus clone Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 16:10:02 +0000 Message-ID: <8pJO3N8RglVW-G_Q1TB5VlZ7GhfHmmX-pIcH54J_0Rbu6huq6OpKVR0FhHh8Vf2mBcHpmQhPVMcUmY7d_dpZXhQMFl41qhqYzD81cc5ZSTs=@virtadpt.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7355311659319057413==" --===============7355311659319057413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, July 29th, 2024 at 12:25, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > I came across this today: =E2=80=9CElectronics engineer builds 1986 Macin= tosh Plus > > clone=E2=80=9D. Is there some reason one would want to do this? Not sure = what the > > point is but it proves it can be done! >=20 > It can be done on a Raspberry Pi Pico, a sub-$1 microcontroller. >=20 > https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/18/apples_macintosh_128k_on_a_pico/ But, can you integrate the Pico into the Mac Plus chassis and peripherals in = the same way? Replica and cloned boards are probably going to be more important as time goe= s by. The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============7355311659319057413==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Tue Jul 30 16:12:57 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 16:12:49 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCYXPR84MB3515C810F78A405CD1B69B39AEB02=40CYXPR84MB?= =?utf-8?q?3515=2ENAMPRD84=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3781964805207028821==" --===============3781964805207028821== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, July 29th, 2024 at 18:22, David Wise via cctalk wrote: > I will never forget Windows ME. Bleargh! I had to admin a fax server running on an ME box for a couple of years. I si= ncerely hope I never have to do that again.. The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============3781964805207028821==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Tue Jul 30 16:21:05 2024 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Macintosh Plus clone Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 17:20:55 +0100 Message-ID: <4e248475-56e0-4c5b-8b0d-ac81e27b1fec@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0645961835830529350==" --===============0645961835830529350== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If this is DOSfox's clone, he also built a Lisa clone last year. Of course, the point, like a lot of stuff in this hobby, is "because why not?" On 28/07/2024 02:41, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I came across this today: “Electronics engineer builds 1986 Macintosh Plus > clone”. Is there some reason one would want to do this? Not sure what the > point is but it proves it can be done! > > Happy computing. > > Murray 🙂 --===============0645961835830529350==-- From doc@vaxen.net Tue Jul 30 20:20:23 2024 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:20:16 -0500 Message-ID: <2709bfb1-1a4d-4236-b2ca-ff3011b34e5b@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3066645109806280040==" --===============3066645109806280040== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/29/24 19:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for >> $50,000 >> – US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM’s version >> thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, moreso than >> what >> 8-bit machines could do! > > Initially MS-DOS and PC-DOS differed only in name and trivial items, > such as "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" being renamed "IBMBIO.COM" and > "IBMDOS.COM" > When changes were made, Microsoft's and IBM's version numbers were > separated. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com And I learned last week that DOS is still alive, and well, and damned expensive. Tuxera Systems acquired Datalight in 2019 and now sells ROM-DOS. They claim it's still fully compatible with MS-DOS. Single User ROM-DOS costs $55 USD, and the SDK for building it embedded is "Call for a Quote". They're apparently pretty active with the Cease & Desist action - none of their products are "out there" in the usual places. Long Live DOS! Doc --===============3066645109806280040==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue Jul 30 20:55:41 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:55:36 -0500 Message-ID: <181018697.324271.1722372936452@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3ChkBxy-fyCGl1yETfnDv1kgNcIwJ9Mh5dlNXD6WYWP5yjELqMqL?= =?utf-8?q?hedSrFldDhksfCCB-oIGzfo9U6dNEuG34CaTYsCtvTnxegUp9ttf3pFjA=3D=40vi?= =?utf-8?q?rtadpt=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8018788386468211700==" --===============8018788386468211700== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think anaybody has reposted this one on this thread. Microsoft release Windows CE, which bombed Then Windows ME, another bomb Finally Window NT, a moderate success So they combined them but still can't get windows CEMENT to complete the boot= process. ...or something like that. 
--Carey
--===============8018788386468211700==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 30 21:19:00 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:18:51 -0600 Message-ID: <7c325204-d174-42b5-a103-ba80d2c469a2@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <181018697.324271.1722372936452@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8571803492981749478==" --===============8571803492981749478== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-07-30 2:55 p.m., CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > I don't think anaybody has reposted this one on this thread. >=20 > Microsoft release Windows CE, which bombed >=20 > Then Windows ME, another bomb >=20 > Finally Window NT, a moderate success >=20 > So they combined them but still can't get windows CEMENT to complete the bo= ot process. >=20 >=20 > ...or something like that. There's a tugboat down by the river, don't you know Where a cement bag's just a-drooping on down Oh, that cement is just, it's there for the weight, dear Five'll get ya ten, ol' Gates's back in town > 
--Carey
Ben --===============8571803492981749478==-- From ama@ugr.es Tue Jul 30 21:52:00 2024 From: Angel M Alganza To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 23:43:44 +0200 Message-ID: <66957182eec25dfb3846b4e6d273f3d6@ugr.es> In-Reply-To: <2709bfb1-1a4d-4236-b2ca-ff3011b34e5b@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1576107718310556632==" --===============1576107718310556632== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-07-30 22:20, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > And I learned last week that DOS is still alive, and well, and damned > expensive. [...] > Long Live DOS! FreeDOS is cheaper :-) Long Live FreeDOS! https://freedos.org/ --===============1576107718310556632==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Jul 30 22:10:02 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:09:52 -0700 Message-ID: <009801dae2cd$37e5a1a0$a7b0e4e0$@net> In-Reply-To: <66957182eec25dfb3846b4e6d273f3d6@ugr.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3126589788792619393==" --===============3126589788792619393== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > FreeDOS is cheaper :-) > Long Live FreeDOS! > > https://freedos.org/ Unfortunately FreeDOS (as expected given the nature of the project) progresses very slowly. I would love to see FreeDOS become a full fledged MS-DOS 7.0, would have/could have/should have been, replacement. I still run DOS 6.22 for almost all of my DOS needs. Not sure what others like to do though. -Ali --===============3126589788792619393==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Jul 30 22:10:08 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:09:52 -0700 Message-ID: <009701dae2cd$37a0a960$a6e1fc20$@net> In-Reply-To: <2709bfb1-1a4d-4236-b2ca-ff3011b34e5b@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3175671641939633234==" --===============3175671641939633234== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Tuxera Systems acquired Datalight in 2019 and now sells ROM-DOS. They > claim it's still fully compatible with MS-DOS. >=20 > Single User ROM-DOS costs $55 USD, and the SDK for building it embedded > is "Call for a Quote". $55 isn't that bad. If it was a real commercial product with printed manuals,= disks, etc. I would say that is pretty fair. However, I think it is a downlo= ad only purchase option though. On the upside it supposedly has built in supp= ort for LFN and FAT32.... -Ali --===============3175671641939633234==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Jul 31 05:14:23 2024 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 00:14:16 -0500 Message-ID: <6c44774e-2616-496a-9fc3-38d099503eff@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7502784565877245219==" --===============7502784565877245219== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/30/2024 6:58 AM, cz via cctalk wrote: > But Windows 2000 was a re-architected version of NT that people hated > because of the GUI. So they dusted up the GUI with Windows 98's stuff > and released it as XP. Rest was history.... In the interest of facts, I don't think this is correct. Windows NT 3.1 utilized the Windows 3.1 UI look and feel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.1 Windows NT 3.5 continued the 3.1 look and feel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.5 Windows NT 4.0 utilized the Windows 95 look and feel, as did 2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_4.0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_2000 Thus, I believe the UI hate evaporated before Windows XP. I remember using 3.1, 4.0, and 2000.  As I recall, I loved the stability of 3.1, but the UI was old and outdated, especially when 95 came out. 4.0 offered the nicer UI, but the driver situation was still a problem, compared to the better driver support for Windows 95/98.  Windows 2000 was supposed to unify the OS variants, but it didn't quite make it (though I think W2K moved the graphics subsystem into the kernel for better performance), and Windows XP was the first unified OS and the first with a 64 bit variant. Jim --===============7502784565877245219==-- From cz@bunsen.crystel.com Wed Jul 31 05:24:01 2024 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 14:48:11 -0400 Message-ID: <527DFBE7-7B75-48A0-8FEF-287EE0D405D5@bunsen.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3ChkBxy-fyCGl1yETfnDv1kgNcIwJ9Mh5dlNXD6WYWP5yjELqMqL?= =?utf-8?q?hedSrFldDhksfCCB-oIGzfo9U6dNEuG34CaTYsCtvTnxegUp9ttf3pFjA=3D=40vi?= =?utf-8?q?rtadpt=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6327162287654725931==" --===============6327162287654725931== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh lord was it gammafax? Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 30, 2024, at 12:12=E2=80=AFPM, The Doctor via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On Monday, July 29th, 2024 at 18:22, David Wise via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> I will never forget Windows ME. Bleargh! >=20 > I had to admin a fax server running on an ME box for a couple of years. I = sincerely hope > I never have to do that again.. >=20 > The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] > WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ > Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. >=20 --===============6327162287654725931==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Jul 31 05:26:05 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 22:25:49 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6c44774e-2616-496a-9fc3-38d099503eff@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8621027814444398842==" --===============8621027814444398842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 10:14=E2=80=AFPM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > I remember using 3.1, 4.0, and 2000. As I recall, I loved the stability > of 3.1, but the UI was old and outdated, especially when 95 came out. > 4.0 offered the nicer UI, but the driver situation was still a problem, I forget at which NT release you could do advanced things like changing the IP address without needing to reboot :-). --===============8621027814444398842==-- From doc@vaxen.net Wed Jul 31 07:12:20 2024 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 02:12:13 -0500 Message-ID: <3ee55a52-b807-49a2-b0da-ec30f0c884da@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: <009701dae2cd$37a0a960$a6e1fc20$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0444465475008026324==" --===============0444465475008026324== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/30/24 17:09, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> Tuxera Systems acquired Datalight in 2019 and now sells ROM-DOS. They >> claim it's still fully compatible with MS-DOS. >> >> Single User ROM-DOS costs $55 USD, and the SDK for building it embedded >> is "Call for a Quote". >=20 > $55 isn't that bad. If it was a real commercial product with printed manual= s, disks, etc. I would say that is pretty fair. However, I think it is a down= load only purchase option though. On the upside it supposedly has built in su= pport for LFN and FAT32.... That price wouldn't be bad at all if the "ROM" part were included. I have embedded systems from a V40 8088-alike to Pentium that will run=20 from EPROM or EEPROM; it would be fantastic to have the DataLight/Tuxera=20 run-from-ROM tools. And sadly, even the SDK delivers on CD - no paper for you! Doc --===============0444465475008026324==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Wed Jul 31 07:40:46 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 08:40:28 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6838504439774697918==" --===============6838504439774697918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 6:26=E2=80=AFAM Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > > I forget at which NT release you could do advanced things like changing the > IP address without needing to reboot :-). > I've been playing with some HP 16700 logic analysers recently - HPUX 10 from the late 90s. Setting the date and changing from static address to DHCP each required their own reboot (though it's possibly the application-specific GUI forcing that rather than HPUX itself). Brought back memories of 'You have moved the mouse, do you want to reboot? '. --===============6838504439774697918==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Jul 31 11:32:21 2024 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 12:32:16 +0100 Message-ID: <1b4801dae33d$4bec52a0$e3c4f7e0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6c44774e-2616-496a-9fc3-38d099503eff@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3730294502790283360==" --===============3730294502790283360== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Brain via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2024 6:14 AM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Jim Brain > Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS >=20 > On 7/30/2024 6:58 AM, cz via cctalk wrote: > > But Windows 2000 was a re-architected version of NT that people hated > > because of the GUI. So they dusted up the GUI with Windows 98's stuff > > and released it as XP. Rest was history.... The GUI in Windows/2000 is very similar to 9X. The issue with Windows/2000 th= at put people off was applications compatibility. Because it does not sit on = top of DOS like 95,98 and ME. So it broke many applications that worked in the DOS world. From a corporate, enterprise view it was a game changer. The scalability of A= ctivity Directory as opposed to the NT SAM just opened the door to wide scale= deployments. The controls that Group Policy provided allowed you much more control over th= e end user machine.=20 Proper roaming profiles and multi master replication.. Really it delivered something approaching the manageability of a Mainframe in= a PC based distributed network..... https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/active-directory-second/0596004664/ch01s= 02.html ... for those on Windows 2000, initially XP offered very little, except for a= "TeleTubbie" user interface, so the start of the dumbing down of Windows... .. in fact I would say Windows/2000 is probably my favourite OS .... >=20 > In the interest of facts, I don't think this is correct. >=20 > Windows NT 3.1 utilized the Windows 3.1 UI look and feel >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.1 >=20 > Windows NT 3.5 continued the 3.1 look and feel. >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.5 >=20 > Windows NT 4.0 utilized the Windows 95 look and feel, as did 2000 >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_4.0 >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_2000 >=20 > Thus, I believe the UI hate evaporated before Windows XP. >=20 > I remember using 3.1, 4.0, and 2000. As I recall, I loved the stability of= 3.1, but > the UI was old and outdated, especially when 95 came out. > 4.0 offered the nicer UI, but the driver situation was still a problem, com= pared > to the better driver support for Windows 95/98. Windows 2000 was supposed > to unify the OS variants, but it didn't quite make it (though I think W2K m= oved > the graphics subsystem into the kernel for better performance), and Windows= XP > was the first unified OS and the first with a 64 bit variant. >=20 > Jim >=20 Dave p.s. I once went to talk to some MS techies about an Exchange/IBM mail gatewa= y we were supporting, but which Microsoft had bought. I had things set up to = run on a couple of machines and had tested everything worked in an isolated e= nvironment. What I hadn't noticed, in the pressure of making sure there were = no glitches was that my XP desktop had the normal background replaced with on= e the BBC provided for fans of the TeleTubbies https://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/shows/teletubbies got a big cheer from the Techies at Microsoft...... Dave =20 --===============3730294502790283360==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Jul 31 12:12:10 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Macintosh Plus clone Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 13:11:54 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C8pJO3N8RglVW-G=5FQ1TB5VlZ7GhfHmmX-pIcH54J=5F0Rbu6h?= =?utf-8?q?uq6OpKVR0FhHh8Vf2mBcHpmQhPVMcUmY7d=5FdpZXhQMFl41qhqYzD81cc5ZSTs?= =?utf-8?q?=3D=40virtadpt=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0347457459149933481==" --===============0347457459149933481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 30 Jul 2024 at 17:28, The Doctor via cctalk wrote: > > But, can you integrate the Pico into the Mac Plus chassis and peripherals i= n the same way? > Replica and cloned boards are probably going to be more important as time g= oes by. It's a fair point. That would be a lot more work but it is eminently doable, yes. I don't know if you have ever heard of the PiStorm, but it works by taking the 68000 out of an Amiga and putting an entire Raspberry Pi on an adaptor board in the CPU socket. To run the computer, the original PiStorm software initialises, pauses the bus, boots Linux, loads a 68000 emulator, unpauses the bus, loads the OS from Amiga media into the emulator on the Pi and then executes it. The original version ran at about 5x the speed of a 25MHz 68030. It cost =C2= =A350. https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/12/pistorm_accelerated_amiga_pi/ Now there's a bare-metal emulator that's about 130x faster. So, yes, if replacing just the CPU is possible, replacing the rest of the logic board as well is just an implementation issue. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============0347457459149933481==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Jul 31 12:21:45 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 13:21:27 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <009801dae2cd$37e5a1a0$a7b0e4e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7028704335278197925==" --===============7028704335278197925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 30 Jul 2024 at 23:10, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Unfortunately FreeDOS (as expected given the nature of the project) > progresses very slowly. Fair. There are quarterly updates but they keep very quiet about them. https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/test/ > I would love to see FreeDOS become a full fledged > MS-DOS 7.0, would have/could have/should have been, replacement. Agreed. > I still run > DOS 6.22 for almost all of my DOS needs. Not sure what others like to do > though. IBM made the kernel and core files of PC DOS 7.1 a free download as part of the Serverguide Scripting Toolkit. I consider that as a public release. I combined that with the free PC-DOS 7.01 VM distributed for free with Microsoft VirtualPC. https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/59703.html You get Y2K compliance, FAT32 and LBA support, and also IBM E and Rexx if you want them. It works very well. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7028704335278197925==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Jul 31 12:26:00 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 13:25:43 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6c44774e-2616-496a-9fc3-38d099503eff@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5591847745650651457==" --===============5591847745650651457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 06:14, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > In the interest of facts, I don't think this is correct. > > Windows NT 3.1 utilized the Windows 3.1 UI look and feel > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.1 > > Windows NT 3.5 continued the 3.1 look and feel. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.5 OK, true but misses out a major release, the best one of NT 3.x. I think it would be simpler to say: NT 3.1, 3.5 and 3.51 used the Windows 3.1 UI. NT 4 used the Windows 95 UI. Windows 2000 used the same UI as Windows ME: it's a modified updated version of the "Active Desktop" from Windows 98. > Thus, I believe the UI hate evaporated before Windows XP. Agreed. > I remember using 3.1, 4.0, and 2000. I deployed all of them in production. > As I recall, I loved the stability > of 3.1, but the UI was old and outdated, especially when 95 came out. Agreed. > 4.0 offered the nicer UI, but the driver situation was still a problem, > compared to the better driver support for Windows 95/98. True. Also, no Plug'n'Play, no ACPI, no USB, no FAT32. > Windows 2000 > was supposed to unify the OS variants, but it didn't quite make it > (though I think W2K moved the graphics subsystem into the kernel for > better performance), No, that was NT4. > and Windows XP was the first unified OS It wasn't really "unified" in any way. That was marketing spiel. > and the > first with a 64 bit variant. Kinda sorta yes, but it was not 64-bit at release. First an Itanium version came out a year or so later, then a year or so after that, an AMD64 version followed. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5591847745650651457==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Jul 31 13:57:28 2024 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 08:57:21 -0500 Message-ID: <48560fb7-7566-4342-b8b4-692d0e6e5354@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7776666806377658642==" --===============7776666806377658642== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/31/2024 7:25 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 06:14, Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: >> In the interest of facts, I don't think this is correct. >> >> Windows NT 3.1 utilized the Windows 3.1 UI look and feel >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.1 >> >> Windows NT 3.5 continued the 3.1 look and feel. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.5 > OK, true but misses out a major release, the best one of NT 3.x. > > I think it would be simpler to say: > > NT 3.1, 3.5 and 3.51 used the Windows 3.1 UI. > > NT 4 used the Windows 95 UI. I was trying to be a bit pedantic, since I was correcting information in the previous posting. I honestly did not remember 3.51, and I was not sure if 4 used the WIn95 UI or a facsimile of it built from some of the same source. > > Windows 2000 used the same UI as Windows ME: it's a modified updated > version of the "Active Desktop" from Windows 98. I was not aware (or, maybe I was, but it's been long enough I forgot) > >> Windows 2000 >> was supposed to unify the OS variants, but it didn't quite make it >> (though I think W2K moved the graphics subsystem into the kernel for >> better performance), > No, that was NT4. I think you're referring to the GFX subsystem move, and I stand corrected.  If you're referring to NT 4 being the unified OS, I would disagree. >> and Windows XP was the first unified OS > It wasn't really "unified" in any way. That was marketing spiel. A poor choice of words.  I did not mean to imply the code was merged, but that they had tried to offer feature parity in the WinNT tech. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============7776666806377658642==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jul 31 14:06:35 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 10:06:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <48560fb7-7566-4342-b8b4-692d0e6e5354@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3920908139414723618==" --===============3920908139414723618== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Windows NT and 2000 did not have the "cut through" ability for apps to talk to video without going through security proxies, thus games were always terrible on them. Windows XP was the first OS (well aside from Windows 95/ME/whatever) that allowed fast access. This made it a security sinkhole, but everyone loved it and that's why it was adopted as the standard for so long. C On 7/31/2024 9:57 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 7/31/2024 7:25 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 06:14, Jim Brain via cctalk >>   wrote: >>> In the interest of facts, I don't think this is correct. >>> >>> Windows NT 3.1 utilized the Windows 3.1 UI look and feel >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.1 >>> >>> Windows NT 3.5 continued the 3.1 look and feel. >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.5 >> OK, true but misses out a major release, the best one of NT 3.x. >> >> I think it would be simpler to say: >> >> NT 3.1, 3.5 and 3.51 used the Windows 3.1 UI. >> >> NT 4 used the Windows 95 UI. > I was trying to be a bit pedantic, since I was correcting information in > the previous posting. I honestly did not remember 3.51, and I was not > sure if 4 used the WIn95 UI or a facsimile of it built from some of the > same source. >> >> Windows 2000 used the same UI as Windows ME: it's a modified updated >> version of the "Active Desktop" from Windows 98. > I was not aware (or, maybe I was, but it's been long enough I forgot) >> >>>   Windows 2000 >>> was supposed to unify the OS variants, but it didn't quite make it >>> (though I think W2K moved the graphics subsystem into the kernel for >>> better performance), >> No, that was NT4. > > I think you're referring to the GFX subsystem move, and I stand > corrected.  If you're referring to NT 4 being the unified OS, I would > disagree. > >>> and Windows XP was the first unified OS >> It wasn't really "unified" in any way. That was marketing spiel. > A poor choice of words.  I did not mean to imply the code was merged, > but that they had tried to offer feature parity in the WinNT tech. > > > Jim > --===============3920908139414723618==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Jul 31 14:15:45 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 09:15:28 -0500 Message-ID: <1151765405.340921.1722435328622@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <1b4801dae33d$4bec52a0$e3c4f7e0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1017120314410123585==" --===============1017120314410123585== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am i the ONLY person who preferred the win 3.1 user interface? Probably, sin= ce I have never seen one like it on linux, and everybody else complains about= it. 1. I don't like "active anything" that pops up when I move the mouse one pixe= l further than I intended, or hides itself just as I am clicking on it so the= click goes through to something behind, unintended. and don't get me starte= d on when I am resizing and go one pixel past the edge, so it maximizes...acr= oss all my displays. sometimes takes me 3-5 attempts to resize one window to= almost fill one physical display. i think the maximizing across multiple di= splays is only a winblows problem. 2. I could customize groupings in program manager: --this group is all things related to the newsletter I prepare monthly, inclu= ding the actual document, background info, program to print it, browser with = related information, etc. for the 3 days per month I work on it, and keeps o= ut of my way the rest of the time. --or this group is only brought up in the spring, with items for planning my = garden. but I might also bring it up briefly in the autumn when I see some s= pecial seeds I never heard about before. --the groupings helped for seldom used files/programs whose name I have troub= le remembering...just bring up the group and it is there --program manager was always there when I wanted it, or got hidden when I did= n't 3. file manager had features I maybe could find now but have not, such as=20 --tiling *or* cascading several directories, and dragging files from one to a= nother, harder to set up with tabs or multiple instances of file manager. --(maybe its fond memories, but I think I could) select several files and sor= t ONLY THEM, leaving the others unmoved,=20 --sort on file extension,=20 --sort with wildcards (probably can, just my ignorance?) --show date and time even for not the last 24 hour files (I think I did find = such a file manager, but it lacked some other critical functions, or crashed = all the time. two really big plusses afaik only in linux: --I can expand a subdirectory now without jumping completely to it, which win= 3.1 could not do --also like that when attaching to an email, or opening, I can select from "r= ecently used" another wish (for winblows or linux) if it was like Dos/win3.1, where you boo= t do a dos prompt, it would be nice if I could bring up the graphical interfa= ce with &, and then bring up a second one....maybe a different, one or with d= ifferent options...especially now that I have multiple display adapters, a wi= n 3.1 like UI on one monitor, and a current UI on on the other monitor, then = from either drag application windows to a third monitor. --===============1017120314410123585==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jul 31 14:31:09 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 09:31:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1b4801dae33d$4bec52a0$e3c4f7e0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3920190236287267033==" --===============3920190236287267033== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We were given an expensive device (X-ray fluorescence analyzer) that had a dying computer.  The instrument had an ISA bus card to interface to it.  I cloned the hard drive, and tried to get it to boot properly on a new "industrial" computer that had ISA slots. The original OS was DOS 3.1  That didn't work well, so we got a DOS 7.1 install disk, and had to do a bunch of magic to get the ANSI graphics support loaded properly, but then the whole thing worked! I have a Samsung-built pick and place machine at home that runs Windows 95, because the user-mode control program talks directly to the hardware (a Motorola 68040 VME board connected through a dual-port memory). So, both of these systems require ANCIENT OS versions. Jon --===============3920190236287267033==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Wed Jul 31 14:44:02 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 15:43:46 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1151765405.340921.1722435328622@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0056548877550763287==" --===============0056548877550763287== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't recall anything I liked about 3.1, but certainly all those gesture-based actions that came later are a plague. On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 3:15 PM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Am i the ONLY person who preferred the win 3.1 user interface? Probably, > since I have never seen one like it on linux, and everybody else complains > about it. > > 1. I don't like "active anything" that pops up when I move the mouse one > pixel further than I intended, or hides itself just as I am clicking on it > so the click goes through to something behind, unintended. and don't get > me started on when I am resizing and go one pixel past the edge, so it > maximizes...across all my displays. sometimes takes me 3-5 attempts to > resize one window to almost fill one physical display. i think the > maximizing across multiple displays is only a winblows problem. > > 2. I could customize groupings in program manager: > --this group is all things related to the newsletter I prepare monthly, > including the actual document, background info, program to print it, > browser with related information, etc. for the 3 days per month I work on > it, and keeps out of my way the rest of the time. > --or this group is only brought up in the spring, with items for planning > my garden. but I might also bring it up briefly in the autumn when I see > some special seeds I never heard about before. > --the groupings helped for seldom used files/programs whose name I have > trouble remembering...just bring up the group and it is there > --program manager was always there when I wanted it, or got hidden when I > didn't > > 3. file manager had features I maybe could find now but have not, such as > --tiling *or* cascading several directories, and dragging files from one > to another, harder to set up with tabs or multiple instances of file > manager. > --(maybe its fond memories, but I think I could) select several files and > sort ONLY THEM, leaving the others unmoved, > --sort on file extension, > --sort with wildcards (probably can, just my ignorance?) > --show date and time even for not the last 24 hour files (I think I did > find such a file manager, but it lacked some other critical functions, or > crashed all the time. > > two really big plusses afaik only in linux: > --I can expand a subdirectory now without jumping completely to it, which > win 3.1 could not do > --also like that when attaching to an email, or opening, I can select from > "recently used" > > another wish (for winblows or linux) if it was like Dos/win3.1, where you > boot do a dos prompt, it would be nice if I could bring up the graphical > interface with &, and then bring up a second one....maybe a different, one > or with different options...especially now that I have multiple display > adapters, a win 3.1 like UI on one monitor, and a current UI on on the > other monitor, then from either drag application windows to a third monitor. > --===============0056548877550763287==-- From mjkerpan@kerpan.com Wed Jul 31 14:58:30 2024 From: Michael Kerpan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 10:58:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3898687810612670913==" --===============3898687810612670913== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Windows 2000 certainly had all the same support for fast graphics graphics as Windows XP. Plenty of gamers actually preferred Win2k over XP because it was lighter weight and could deliver better frame rates under some circumstances. Mike On Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 10:06=E2=80=AFAM cz via cctalk wrote: > Windows NT and 2000 did not have the "cut through" ability for apps to > talk to video without going through security proxies, thus games were > always terrible on them. > > Windows XP was the first OS (well aside from Windows 95/ME/whatever) > that allowed fast access. This made it a security sinkhole, but everyone > loved it and that's why it was adopted as the standard for so long. > > C > > On 7/31/2024 9:57 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/31/2024 7:25 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >> On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 06:14, Jim Brain via cctalk > >> wrote: > >>> In the interest of facts, I don't think this is correct. > >>> > >>> Windows NT 3.1 utilized the Windows 3.1 UI look and feel > >>> > >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.1 > >>> > >>> Windows NT 3.5 continued the 3.1 look and feel. > >>> > >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.5 > >> OK, true but misses out a major release, the best one of NT 3.x. > >> > >> I think it would be simpler to say: > >> > >> NT 3.1, 3.5 and 3.51 used the Windows 3.1 UI. > >> > >> NT 4 used the Windows 95 UI. > > I was trying to be a bit pedantic, since I was correcting information in > > the previous posting. I honestly did not remember 3.51, and I was not > > sure if 4 used the WIn95 UI or a facsimile of it built from some of the > > same source. > >> > >> Windows 2000 used the same UI as Windows ME: it's a modified updated > >> version of the "Active Desktop" from Windows 98. > > I was not aware (or, maybe I was, but it's been long enough I forgot) > >> > >>> Windows 2000 > >>> was supposed to unify the OS variants, but it didn't quite make it > >>> (though I think W2K moved the graphics subsystem into the kernel for > >>> better performance), > >> No, that was NT4. > > > > I think you're referring to the GFX subsystem move, and I stand > > corrected. If you're referring to NT 4 being the unified OS, I would > > disagree. > > > >>> and Windows XP was the first unified OS > >> It wasn't really "unified" in any way. That was marketing spiel. > > A poor choice of words. I did not mean to imply the code was merged, > > but that they had tried to offer feature parity in the WinNT tech. > > > > > > Jim > > > --===============3898687810612670913==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Jul 31 15:39:37 2024 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 16:39:31 +0100 Message-ID: <1de801dae35f$d6832c50$838984f0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1151765405.340921.1722435328622@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8822959140599270180==" --===============8822959140599270180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: CAREY SCHUG via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2024 3:15 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: CAREY SCHUG > Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? >=20 > Am i the ONLY person who preferred the win 3.1 user interface? Probably, s= ince > I have never seen one like it on linux, and everybody else complains about = it. >=20 > 1. I don't like "active anything" that pops up when I move the mouse one pi= xel > further than I intended, or hides itself just as I am clicking on it so the= click goes > through to something behind, unintended. and don't get me started on when I > am resizing and go one pixel past the edge, so it maximizes...across all my > displays. sometimes takes me 3-5 attempts to resize one window to almost f= ill > one physical display. i think the maximizing across multiple displays is o= nly a > winblows problem. Not sure about this... >=20 > 2. I could customize groupings in program manager: > --this group is all things related to the newsletter I prepare monthly, inc= luding > the actual document, background info, program to print it, browser with rel= ated > information, etc. for the 3 days per month I work on it, and keeps out of = my > way the rest of the time. > --or this group is only brought up in the spring, with items for planning my > garden. but I might also bring it up briefly in the autumn when I see some > special seeds I never heard about before. > --the groupings helped for seldom used files/programs whose name I have > trouble remembering...just bring up the group and it is there --program man= ager > was always there when I wanted it, or got hidden when I didn't >=20 > 3. file manager had features I maybe could find now but have not, such as -- > tiling *or* cascading several directories, and dragging files from one to a= nother, > harder to set up with tabs or multiple instances of file manager. > --(maybe its fond memories, but I think I could) select several files and s= ort ONLY > THEM, leaving the others unmoved, --sort on file extension, --sort with > wildcards (probably can, just my ignorance?) --show date and time even for = not > the last 24 hour files (I think I did find such a file manager, but it lack= ed some > other critical functions, or crashed all the time. >=20 You can still install the old File Manager https://github.com/Microsoft/winfile/releases You can use the corner dock to get four explorer windows > two really big plusses afaik only in linux: > --I can expand a subdirectory now without jumping completely to it, which w= in > 3.1 could not do --also like that when attaching to an email, or opening, I= can > select from "recently used" >=20 Not sure about this > another wish (for winblows or linux) if it was like Dos/win3.1, where you b= oot do > a dos prompt, it would be nice if I could bring up the graphical interface = with &, > and then bring up a second one....maybe a different, one or with different > options...especially now that I have multiple display adapters, a win 3.1 l= ike UI > on one monitor, and a current UI on on the other monitor, then from either = drag > application windows to a third monitor. You can have Multiple Desktops ... Dave --===============8822959140599270180==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Jul 31 16:41:46 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 11:41:17 -0500 Message-ID: <915368085.347161.1722444077338@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <1de801dae35f$d6832c50$838984f0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8257436787896615199==" --===============8257436787896615199== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, should have specified...I don't use winblows that much, I would Like t= hose features on Linux. think i installed something old on some operating system and it blew up when = I exceed some max for the old system. long filenames, or special characters = in filenames, or something. maybe that would be fixed now. >=20 > > 3. file manager had features I maybe could find now but have not, such as= -- > > tiling *or* cascading several directories, and dragging files from one to= another, > > harder to set up with tabs or multiple instances of file manager. > > --(maybe its fond memories, but I think I could) select several files and= sort ONLY > > THEM, leaving the others unmoved, --sort on file extension, --sort with > > wildcards (probably can, just my ignorance?) --show date and time even fo= r not > > the last 24 hour files (I think I did find such a file manager, but it la= cked some > > other critical functions, or crashed all the time. > >=20 >=20 > You can still install the old File Manager >=20 > https://github.com/Microsoft/winfile/releases >=20 > You can use the corner dock to get four explorer windows >=20 > > two really big plusses afaik only in linux: > > --I can expand a subdirectory now without jumping completely to it, which= win > > 3.1 could not do --also like that when attaching to an email, or opening,= I can > > select from "recently used" > >=20 >=20 >=20 > You can have Multiple Desktops ... I have multiple desktops, but they are all the same UI. my "wish" was to hav= e different UIs on different desktops, a big order, I realize, it requires so= me underlying shared tool kit and being friendly with each other. --===============8257436787896615199==-- From ama@ugr.es Wed Jul 31 16:57:56 2024 From: Angel M Alganza To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:57:52 +0200 Message-ID: <7ca1acca625f241b765602f903965830@ugr.es> In-Reply-To: <915368085.347161.1722444077338@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9142561564255565133==" --===============9142561564255565133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-07-31 18:41, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > I have multiple desktops, but they are all the same UI. my "wish" was > to have different UIs on different desktops, a big order, I realize, it > requires some underlying shared tool kit and being friendly with each > other. If you press CONTROL+ALT+Fx (F1, F2, ...), you go to the virtual consoles, where you can launch new graphical sessions (this is what I believe you call different UIs) by typing "startx -- :1" (then 2, 3, etc...). Have fun! Ángel --===============9142561564255565133==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Jul 31 19:35:33 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 14:35:27 -0500 Message-ID: <964738039.353806.1722454527960@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <7ca1acca625f241b765602f903965830@ugr.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3998325301261103646==" --===============3998325301261103646== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable this is linux, right? so I could have one be kde, one gnome and maybe a thir= d xfce? might try playing with it someday, or good if I want to transition g= radually to a different UI, but unless=20 one of them could be like the win 3.1 UI, not being unable to join them toget= her and drag individual app windows from one physical screen to another proba= bly makes better to all be the same UI with joined screens. 
--Carey
> On 07/31/2024 11:57 AM CDT Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > On 2024-07-31 18:41, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > I have multiple desktops, but they are all the same UI. my "wish" was=20 > > to have different UIs on different desktops, a big order, I realize, it=20 > > requires some underlying shared tool kit and being friendly with each=20 > > other. >=20 > If you press CONTROL+ALT+Fx (F1, F2, ...), you go to the virtual=20 > consoles, where you can launch new graphical sessions (this is what I=20 > believe you call different UIs) by typing "startx -- :1" (then 2, 3,=20 > etc...). >=20 > Have fun! > =C3=81ngel --===============3998325301261103646==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Wed Jul 31 21:41:27 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 22:41:20 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <964738039.353806.1722454527960@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3823321161395018413==" --===============3823321161395018413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 31 Jul 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > this is linux, right? so I could have one be kde, one gnome and maybe a th= ird xfce? might try playing with it someday, or good if I want to transition= gradually to a different UI, but unless=20 > one of them could be like the win 3.1 UI, not being unable to join them tog= ether and drag individual app windows from one physical screen to another pro= bably makes better to all be the same UI with joined screens. With Linux you can definitely have different window managers on different=20 X11 instances running on different screens within the same machine. I did=20 this before (running two instances of Gnome on :0 and :1 respectively, and=20 olvwm on :2) and it's only down to the individual window managers whether=20 they are happy about it or not. You can have some remote screens such as=20 via XDMCP as well, each using its own window manager. Maciej --===============3823321161395018413==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Jul 31 21:50:01 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 14:49:45 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2464378902630039560==" --===============2464378902630039560== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 2:41 PM Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, 31 Jul 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > > > this is linux, right? so I could have one be kde, one gnome and maybe a > third xfce? might try playing with it someday, or good if I want to > transition gradually to a different UI, but unless > > one of them could be like the win 3.1 UI, not being unable to join them > together and drag individual app windows from one physical screen to > another probably makes better to all be the same UI with joined screens. > > With Linux you can definitely have different window managers on different > X11 instances running on different screens within the same machine. > I'm pretty sure you can't move windows between two window managers however (above "drag individual app windows" comment). --===============2464378902630039560==-- From frank@artair.com Wed Jul 31 22:59:00 2024 From: Frank Smith To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI? Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 17:50:24 -0500 Message-ID: <29217461-41D3-444A-B9D8-01EA965D7F24@artair.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7056496123364850281==" --===============7056496123364850281== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 31, 2024, at 4:50=E2=80=AFPM, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 2:41=E2=80=AFPM Maciej W. Rozycki via ccta= lk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >>> On Wed, 31 Jul 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> this is linux, right? so I could have one be kde, one gnome and maybe a >> third xfce? might try playing with it someday, or good if I want to >> transition gradually to a different UI, but unless >>> one of them could be like the win 3.1 UI, not being unable to join them >> together and drag individual app windows from one physical screen to >> another probably makes better to all be the same UI with joined screens. >>=20 >> With Linux you can definitely have different window managers on different >> X11 instances running on different screens within the same machine. >>=20 >=20 > I'm pretty sure you can't move windows between two window managers however > (above "drag individual app windows" comment). xpra (https://www.xpra.org) might accomplish the task. It is like an X11 reim= agining of the Linux =E2=80=98screen=E2=80=99 program. It lets you open a win= dow in one X session, disconnect from it, and reattach it to another X sessio= n.=20 Frank --===============7056496123364850281==--