From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed May 1 00:00:52 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 00:00:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7280231613472903568==" --===============7280231613472903568== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you look around, there are cheaper ones. https://www.ebay.com/itm/293053587824?chn=3Dps&var=3D591875689002&_trkparms= =3Dispr%3D1&amdata=3Denc%3A1lR-MWapOQc-w1ymlvIpxOw36&norover=3D1&mkevt=3D1&mk= rid=3D711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=3D2&itemid=3D591875689002_293053587824&targeti= d=3D4580702894586622&device=3Dm&mktype=3D&googleloc=3D&poi=3D&campaignid=3D41= 8640321&mkgroupid=3D1233652283797640&rlsatarget=3Dpla-4580702894586622&abcId= =3D9300602&merchantid=3D51291&msclkid=3D97c9904d0be714f7095af67c795cf5e7 Sent from my iPhone On Apr 30, 2024, at 16:47, Mike Katz via cctalk wro= te: =EF=BB=BFI tried formatting multiple times (standard operating procedure). I= don't have a PC with a 3.5" floppy attached any more but I did try bulk eras= ing the disk first. On 4/30/2024 5:21 PM, Just Kant via cctalk wrote: Format it more then once. That may afford additional stability. Try formatting it in a pc. Then switch over to the HP. --===============7280231613472903568==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Wed May 1 04:22:33 2024 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 01:22:25 -0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <65125332-e6d7-4dba-9699-e512850dabb1@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8812567040176060801==" --===============8812567040176060801== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As Mike said there are two models 9114A and 9114B, they are functionally equivalent, however the B model uses a 1/2 high drive mechanism and I believe there are changes to the controller as well, but I have only seen the inside of a B model. Paul. On 2024-04-30 8:29 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I am not familiar with a 9114 only the 9114A and 9114B. > > On 4/30/2024 6:15 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> Just wondering: I see 9114 and 9114A being used interchangeably (mine >> are 9114s); are they the same or actually different drives? >> >> m >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 5:39 PM Mike Katz via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>     Thank you for your help. >> >>     That is the command I am using on the 41 to try and format the disk. >>     With a directory size of 60. >> >>     On 4/30/2024 4:22 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>     > Also this article refers to a set of commands for this drive. >>     The NEWM command formats a new disk. >>     > Link is >> https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=78 >>     > >>     > >>     > Sent from my iPhone >>     > >>     > On Apr 30, 2024, at 14:07, Wayne S >> wrote: >>     > >>     > What kind of floppies did Hp recommend to use with this drive? >>     > >>     > Sent from my iPhone >>     > >>     > On Apr 30, 2024, at 13:55, Fred Cisin via cctalk >>     wrote: >>     > >>     > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >>     > Yup, that's all I used to do. Some scotch tape over the floppy >>     disk hole to >>     > make the system see it as DD. If it didn't automatically format >>     as 720, you >>     > could specify size or sector count with format.com >>     in dos. >>     > >>     > Somemedia sensors are optical; use opaque taps. >>     > >>     > I did hear folks say it wasn't always reliable (similar to 5.25 >>     disks being >>     > formated on a high density drive) but I never saw any problems >> in my >>     > limited use. >>     > >>     > 3.5" are 600 VS 750 oersted; >>     > 5.25" are 300 vs 600 Oersted; >>     > a low density 5.25 formatted as "high density" won't do well; >>     > a high density 5.25" (1.2M) formatted as low density ("360K") >>     sill self erase VERY soon, sometimes before you can even get it >>     over to another machine.  We had a college purchasing agent in bed >>     with "Roytype", who kept giving us "1.2M" floppies ofr out TRS80s; >>     they self erased very soon. >>     > >>     > -- >>     > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >> --===============8812567040176060801==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed May 1 07:36:46 2024 From: David Wade To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 08:36:32 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1790353875056524297==" --===============1790353875056524297== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/05/2024 00:27, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Thank you. > > My goal is not to use HD floppies on a drive not designed for them. I=20 > saw some on ebay and amazon but I thought I would try here to see if=20 > anybody had some they don't need.=C2=A0 I would help keep them out of the=20 > trash. > I have lots, but being in the UK its probably more expensive to post=20 them that to buy from E-Bay. My recent experiences with real floppies leads me to believe that almost=20 all media and/or the drives are deteriorating and although I have=20 several drives and lots of disks obtaining reliable performance seems as=20 attainable as unicorn horns... > Thank you again. > Dave G4UGM > On 4/30/2024 6:15 PM, Wayne S wrote: >> If it=E2=80=99s any help, i second the reformat completely a disk in a old= =20 >> pc. I had some issues many years ago where disks formatted on an ibm=20 >> pc didn=E2=80=99t work correctly on a non- ibm pc. Reformatting and doing = the=20 >> error checking by reading and writing all sections fixed it. A quick=20 >> format didn=E2=80=99t. >> There are lotsa 720k diskette=E2=80=99s available for sale=E2=80=A6 prices= vary. Even=20 >> Amazon has them! >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 15:39, Mike Katz wrote: >>> >>> =EF=BB=BFThank you.=C2=A0 I didn't see any new procedures that I have alr= eady tried. >>> >>> I do not have a problem with the drive or with trying to format a HD=20 >>> disk with the HP-41 and therefore I was looking for a few DSDD disks=20 >>> instead of DSHD disks. >>> >>>> On 4/30/2024 5:13 PM, Wayne S wrote: >>>> There is also these 2 procedures to try=E2=80=A6. From=20 >>>> https://literature.hpcalc.org/community/hp9114a-ms-en.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> TheHP9114Ausesdouble-sideddiscs.Dataiswrittenonboth sides of the=20 >>>> disc. Thus the normal formatting procedure is double- sided=20 >>>> formatting. Single-sided formatting is allowed for transferring=20 >>>> data from older systems. See the next section for single-sided=20 >>>> formatting. >>>> Before a flexible disc can be used for the first time, it must be=20 >>>> formatted. Formatting establishes the directory and volume label as=20 >>>> wellasverifyingthatthemediaisnotdamaged.Shownnextare two ways to=20 >>>> format discs. Insert a blank disc into the disc drive. >>>> =C2=A0From the P.A.M. display, pressing the =E2=80=9CFile Manager=E2=80= =9D (f2) softkey=20 >>>> gets you to a =E2=80=9CFormat=E2=80=9D softkey. Press the key labeled = =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9CFormat=E2=80=9D=20 >>>> (f5) and answer the next questions. >>>> =E2=80=9CEnter the disc to format=E2=80=9D. The first disc drive is assi= gned the=20 >>>> letter C. Type C: and press return. >>>> =E2=80=9CEnter a volume label (optional).=E2=80=9D The volume label is t= he name you=20 >>>> want to call the disc. This can be up to 11 characters. For=20 >>>> example, let=E2=80=99s call this disc =E2=80=9CFirst=E2=80=9D. Type Firs= t and press Return. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0 The information is displayed on the first two lines below the=20 >>>> cursor.PresstheStartFormatkey(f1)ifthesetwolinesarecorrect. >>>> =E2=80=9CFormatting Disc. Please wait.=E2=80=9D appears on the display. = Formatting=20 >>>> a disc takes about 1 1/2 minutes. The interleave used with this=20 >>>> formattingmethodis8,theoptimalforHP Portable/9114A operation. >>>> After formatting is complete, pressing the =E2=80=9C=E2=80=99Exit Format= =E2=80=9D (f8)=20 >>>> softkey returns you to the main File Manager display. To exit File=20 >>>> Manager press the =E2=80=9CExit File Manager=E2=80=9D softkey. This ends= the format=20 >>>> procedure. >>>> ThesecondmethodofformattingdiscsistousetheMSDOS Format command.=20 >>>> From the initial P.A.M. display, tabbing over to the area called=20 >>>> =E2=80=9CDOS Commands=E2=80=9D and pressing =E2=80=9CReturn=E2=80=9D all= ows you to use the DOS=20 >>>> command called Format. The interleave used inthiscommand=20 >>>> is8whichisoptimalforyourHP Portable/9114A system. >>>> Type FORMAT C: and press Return. >>>> =E2=80=9CPress any key to begin formatting C:=E2=80=9D is displayed. Pre= ss any key=20 >>>> on the keyboard. Formatting takes about 1 1/2 minutes. >>>> After formatting is complete there is another prompt on the display=20 >>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9CVolume label (11 characters, Enter for none)?. *=E2=80= =9CPress =E2=80=9CReturn=E2=80=9Dif=20 >>>> you don=E2=80=99t want a label or enter the name and press =E2=80=9CRetu= rn=E2=80=9D if you=20 >>>> want to label the volume. >>>> When completed =E2=80=9CFormat another (Y/N)?=E2=80=9D appears on the di= splay.=20 >>>> Typing =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D gets you back to entering MS DOS commands. Ty= pe =E2=80=9CEXIT=E2=80=9D=20 >>>> to return to P.A.M. >>>> Formatting Single-sided >>>> TheHPPortable/9114Asystemcanformatdouble-sideddiscsina single-sided=20 >>>> format. This is allowed for data compatability with other 3=20 >>>> 1/2-inch disc systems. There is a utility called=20 >>>> =E2=80=9CFormat.Com=E2=80=9DontheutilitydiscsuppliedwithyourHP Portable = >>>> computer.Youmustloadthe=E2=80=9CFormat.Com=E2=80=9DutilityintoyourHP Por= table. Use=20 >>>> the following sequence. >>>> PlacetheUtilitydiscintoyourHP9114A. TabovertotheDOS Command=20 >>>> blockandpressStartApplic. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0 From theMS DOS command displaytype: COPY C: FORMAT.COM A: and=20 >>>> press Return >>>> This loads the utility and allows you to use the extra parameters=20 >>>> explainedinthefollowingFORMATcommand. >>>> TheMS DOS command thatallowsthiscompatibilitywithits parameters=20 >>>> isshown next. >>>> Format C:/W -Single-sided >>>> /X -Double-sided with 256 byte sectors >>>> /Y -Double-sided with 512 byte sectors /Z -Double-sided with 1024 byte >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 14:39, Mike Katz wrote: >>>>> =EF=BB=BFThank you for your help. >>>>> >>>>> That is the command I am using on the 41 to try and format the=20 >>>>> disk.=C2=A0 With a directory size of 60. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/30/2024 4:22 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> Also this article refers to a set of commands for this drive. The=20 >>>>>> NEWM command formats a new disk. >>>>>> Link is=20 >>>>>> https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=3D= 78=20 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 14:07, Wayne S wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> =EF=BB=BFWhat kind of floppies did Hp recommend to use with this drive? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 13:55, Fred Cisin via cctalk=20 >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, 30 Apr 2024, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> Yup, that's all I used to do. Some scotch tape over the floppy=20 >>>>>> disk hole to >>>>>> make the system see it as DD. If it didn't automatically format=20 >>>>>> as 720, you >>>>>> could specify size or sector count with format.com in dos. >>>>>> >>>>>> Somemedia sensors are optical; use opaque taps. >>>>>> >>>>>> I did hear folks say it wasn't always reliable (similar to 5.25=20 >>>>>> disks being >>>>>> formated on a high density drive) but I never saw any problems in my >>>>>> limited use. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3.5" are 600 VS 750 oersted; >>>>>> 5.25" are 300 vs 600 Oersted; >>>>>> a low density 5.25 formatted as "high density" won't do well; >>>>>> a high density 5.25" (1.2M) formatted as low density ("360K")=20 >>>>>> sill self erase VERY soon, sometimes before you can even get it=20 >>>>>> over to another machine.=C2=A0 We had a college purchasing agent in=20 >>>>>> bed with "Roytype", who kept giving us "1.2M" floppies ofr out=20 >>>>>> TRS80s; they self erased very soon. >>>>>> >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> Grumpy Ol' Fred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============1790353875056524297==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Wed May 1 07:39:38 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 03:39:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5879007566946893390==" --===============5879007566946893390== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, Paul, I'm aware of the 9114A and B versions and some of the differences, but I'm wondering whether my 9114 is identical to the 9114A. Is it maybe like World War I which was just 'The Great War' until WW II came along; same war, different name. m On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 12:38 AM Paul Berger via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > As Mike said there are two models 9114A and 9114B, they are functionally > equivalent, however the B model uses a 1/2 high drive mechanism and I > believe there are changes to the controller as well, but I have only > seen the inside of a B model. > > Paul. > > On 2024-04-30 8:29 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I am not familiar with a 9114 only the 9114A and 9114B. > > > > On 4/30/2024 6:15 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> Just wondering: I see 9114 and 9114A being used interchangeably (mine > >> are 9114s); are they the same or actually different drives? > >> > >> m > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 5:39 PM Mike Katz via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> > >> Thank you for your help. > >> > >> That is the command I am using on the 41 to try and format the disk. > >> With a directory size of 60. > >> > >> On 4/30/2024 4:22 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > >> > Also this article refers to a set of commands for this drive. > >> The NEWM command formats a new disk. > >> > Link is > >> https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=78 > >> > > >> > > >> > Sent from my iPhone > >> > > >> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 14:07, Wayne S > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > What kind of floppies did Hp recommend to use with this drive? > >> > > >> > Sent from my iPhone > >> > > >> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 13:55, Fred Cisin via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > >> > Yup, that's all I used to do. Some scotch tape over the floppy > >> disk hole to > >> > make the system see it as DD. If it didn't automatically format > >> as 720, you > >> > could specify size or sector count with format.com > >> in dos. > >> > > >> > Somemedia sensors are optical; use opaque taps. > >> > > >> > I did hear folks say it wasn't always reliable (similar to 5.25 > >> disks being > >> > formated on a high density drive) but I never saw any problems > >> in my > >> > limited use. > >> > > >> > 3.5" are 600 VS 750 oersted; > >> > 5.25" are 300 vs 600 Oersted; > >> > a low density 5.25 formatted as "high density" won't do well; > >> > a high density 5.25" (1.2M) formatted as low density ("360K") > >> sill self erase VERY soon, sometimes before you can even get it > >> over to another machine. We had a college purchasing agent in bed > >> with "Roytype", who kept giving us "1.2M" floppies ofr out TRS80s; > >> they self erased very soon. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > >> > --===============5879007566946893390==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed May 1 10:24:52 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 11:24:35 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <51fb3f93-b8ec-4b0a-8a12-db7c56629d48@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6336048108621362407==" --===============6336048108621362407== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 18:08, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Does anybody have any extra 720K (double sided, double density) 3.5" > Floppy Disks that could use a good home? > > If so, please email me directly at bitwiz(a)12bitsbest.com. In what country? That massively impacts many people's willingness to donate. If in the USA, you could buy some from https://www.floppydisk.com/ « 3.5" floppy DS/DD MF2-DD "Double Density" "Low density" "720K" 50 New Black DS/DD 720K IBM Format $99.95 50 New Black DS/DD NOT FORMATTED $99.95 50 DS/DD 720K disks Recycled disks--Guaranteed 100% $34.95 Recycled disks are tested, reformated, and relabeled in our facility. » -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6336048108621362407==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Wed May 1 13:15:45 2024 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 10:15:16 -0300 Message-ID: <897f1489-875c-461f-8058-7e3f04227696@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5414105389411447930==" --===============5414105389411447930== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well from pictures I found online at https://www.ebay.com/itm/315148732505 it would seem that the A model just said "9114" on the front however the serial number label on the bottom says 9114A. Paul. On 2024-05-01 4:39 a.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Thanks, Paul, > > I'm aware of the 9114A and B versions and some of the differences, but I'm > wondering whether my 9114 is identical to the 9114A. > > Is it maybe like World War I which was just 'The Great War' until WW > II came along; same war, different name. > > m > > On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 12:38 AM Paul Berger via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> As Mike said there are two models 9114A and 9114B, they are functionally >> equivalent, however the B model uses a 1/2 high drive mechanism and I >> believe there are changes to the controller as well, but I have only >> seen the inside of a B model. >> >> Paul. >> >> On 2024-04-30 8:29 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>> I am not familiar with a 9114 only the 9114A and 9114B. >>> >>> On 4/30/2024 6:15 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >>>> Just wondering: I see 9114 and 9114A being used interchangeably (mine >>>> are 9114s); are they the same or actually different drives? >>>> >>>> m >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 5:39 PM Mike Katz via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thank you for your help. >>>> >>>> That is the command I am using on the 41 to try and format the disk. >>>> With a directory size of 60. >>>> >>>> On 4/30/2024 4:22 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>>> > Also this article refers to a set of commands for this drive. >>>> The NEWM command formats a new disk. >>>> > Link is >>>> https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=78 >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>> > >>>> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 14:07, Wayne S >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > What kind of floppies did Hp recommend to use with this drive? >>>> > >>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>> > >>>> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 13:55, Fred Cisin via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >>>> > Yup, that's all I used to do. Some scotch tape over the floppy >>>> disk hole to >>>> > make the system see it as DD. If it didn't automatically format >>>> as 720, you >>>> > could specify size or sector count with format.com >>>> in dos. >>>> > >>>> > Somemedia sensors are optical; use opaque taps. >>>> > >>>> > I did hear folks say it wasn't always reliable (similar to 5.25 >>>> disks being >>>> > formated on a high density drive) but I never saw any problems >>>> in my >>>> > limited use. >>>> > >>>> > 3.5" are 600 VS 750 oersted; >>>> > 5.25" are 300 vs 600 Oersted; >>>> > a low density 5.25 formatted as "high density" won't do well; >>>> > a high density 5.25" (1.2M) formatted as low density ("360K") >>>> sill self erase VERY soon, sometimes before you can even get it >>>> over to another machine. We had a college purchasing agent in bed >>>> with "Roytype", who kept giving us "1.2M" floppies ofr out TRS80s; >>>> they self erased very soon. >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >>>> --===============5414105389411447930==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed May 1 14:47:17 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 15:47:02 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5959319392547000938==" --===============5959319392547000938== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 5:38 AM Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > As Mike said there are two models 9114A and 9114B, they are functionally > equivalent, however the B model uses a 1/2 high drive mechanism and I > believe there are changes to the controller as well, but I have only > seen the inside of a B model. I've got both types and not surprisingly have been inside them. The controllers are similar in design -- the main changes are for the different drive type and the better battery status monitor on the 'B' -- but are not interchangeable. You probably could get it to work, but.. The -A uses the original Sony 3.5" double-head drive. This always runs at 600rpm, the HP one is not modified. The -B uses a later drive, also 600rpm, which shares a lot of parts with the Apple 800K drive (head carriage, stepper motor, analogue IC...) should you need to do repairs. The older drive has a 26 pin data cable and separate 4 pin power cable, the later drive has a 34 pin cable for data and power (power is on some of the odd-numbered pin, they are not all grounds as you might expect). The disk-inserted sensor on the -A is a spring-loaded plastic part which interrupts the beam of a slotted optoswitch on the motor PCB when a disk is present. Amazingly it lines up with the 'high desity hole' in 1.4M disks. So unless you rigidly block that hole it is likely the drive will not detect such a disk. As others have said the 1.4M disks are higher coercivity so using them is unreliable at best. -tony --===============5959319392547000938==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Wed May 1 16:37:26 2024 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 17:37:21 +0100 Message-ID: <647c4b19-0b73-4724-a71d-91c423c0c834@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8674907894782051155==" --===============8674907894782051155== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I can't vouch for later drives, but the earliest 600RPM Sony drives were built we no knowledge of HD vs DD, so covering the HD hole is probably a moot point in the HP drives, though it is likely worth taping over it for any formatting options. It's worth noting that the speed is pretty much a moot point as well. As long as the data is written on the disks correctly by the modern machine, the older 600RPM drives should have no problem reading it. My RCA MS2000 reads floppies written in modern machines perfectly fine and that has even more oddball single sided 600RPM drives. As someone else said, the disk loading mechanism gets very stiff as the lubricant solidifies. It's quite easy to free it up with some IPA and patience. I'd be very careful not to ruin the upper heads on dual sided drives by forcing disks in and out though. Thankfully a moot point with my drives! Could be that the drive heads need cleaning and alignment. Have you had any success formatting disks on the target machine, if possible? Josh Rice On 30/04/2024 21:06, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Thank you for trying to help.  My situation is unusual at best and I'm > apologize for the extra bandwidth my question is causing. > > *snip* > > The HP9114A drive uses a modified Sony 3.5" floppy drive running at > 600 RPM instead of the normal 300 RPM.  This is an extremely unusual > configuration that is different from any PC/MAC/Commodore/Amiga > situation. > > *snip* > > Than you again everyone for offering to help, > >               Mike > > On 4/30/2024 2:41 PM, Wayne S wrote: >> What errors are you seeing? >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 12:29, Mike Katz via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> I have tried bulk erasing 1.44 MB disks and they still won't format >>> in the HP9114A battery operated HP-IL Floppy Disk drive. >>> >>>> On 4/30/2024 12:20 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On 30/04/2024 18:08, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Having grown up with 1.44MB 3.5" floppies, I have a question: is it >>>>> possible to use a 1.44MB disk and just format it as a 720K disk? >>>> I think it's entirely possible. I'd definitely format them in a >>>> 720kb drive though to be extra safe. Though original 720KB disks >>>> written/formatted  in 1.44MB drives seem perfectly cromulent from >>>> my experience. >>>> >>>> However don't quote me on it, The only double density drives i have >>>> are super early Sony ones built in 1982 and they get pampered with >>>> NOS 720kb media (with the sliders sellotaped open because no auto >>>> opening shutters on my drives!) >>>> >>>> Josh Rice > --===============8674907894782051155==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Wed May 1 22:04:13 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 18:03:45 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0168585208411025445==" --===============0168585208411025445== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nostalgia keeps pressing ahead: It was 60 yrs. ago that BASIC came into existence. I remember very well writing in Apple Basic and GW Basic later on. As a non-compiled OS, an interpreted OS, it was just the right tool for a microcomputer with limited memory. I recall fondly taking code from popular magazines and getting them to run. It was thrilling indeed! Happy computing, Murray 🙂 --===============0168585208411025445==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed May 1 22:26:49 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 17:26:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2655112362499535313==" --===============2655112362499535313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code (BASIC) Developed by John G. Kemeny and Thomas E. Kurtz at Dartmouth College in 1963.  This ran on the Dartmouth Time Sharing System (DTSS) which was an early time sharing system running on Honeywell and GE Main Frames with Datanet systems running the terminal interfaces. This system was intended to be an online code/run/debug cycle system rather than a batch processing system like most Cobol and Fortran compilers were. BASIC was actually their third language attempt to simplify the syntax of languages like Fortran and Algol. There are literally 100's of dialects of BASIC, both as compilers (as was the original) and interpreters and even pseudo compilers. Like many of us older members of this thread, some form of BASIC was our "computer milk language" (our first computer language). Some early microcomputers even wrote their operating systems in some form of BASIC. I learned basic in September of 1972 on a 4K PDP-8/L running EduSystem 10 Basic with time also spent at the Kiewit Computation Center at Dartmouth (as a 12 year old) running Dartmouth Basic. Let's hear your earliest introduction to BASIC. On 5/1/2024 5:03 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Nostalgia keeps pressing ahead: It was 60 yrs. ago that BASIC came into > existence. I remember very well writing in Apple Basic and GW Basic later > on. As a non-compiled OS, an interpreted OS, it was just the right tool for > a microcomputer with limited memory. I recall fondly taking code from > popular magazines and getting them to run. It was thrilling indeed! > > Happy computing, > > Murray 🙂 --===============2655112362499535313==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 1 22:27:07 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 15:26:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1408363690159957156==" --===============1408363690159957156== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 1 May 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Nostalgia keeps pressing ahead: It was 60 yrs. ago that BASIC came into > existence. I remember very well writing in Apple Basic and GW Basic later > on. As a non-compiled OS, an interpreted OS, it was just the right tool for > a microcomputer with limited memory. I recall fondly taking code from > popular magazines and getting them to run. It was thrilling indeed! > Happy computing, > Murray 🙂 BTW, BASIC ("Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code") was developed at Dartmouth college by Kurtz and Kemeny. More than 30 years later was the first time (or so they claimed) that they EVER got around to trying ANY of the BASICs based on their original language. They were APALLED! They came out with "TRUE BASIC", to counter the various "street BASICs. picky details, . . . BASIC was a non-compiled interpreted LANGUAGE, not an OS ("Operating System"), at least in the examples you mention. (also TRS80 and some models of Commodore) However, to be fair, there did exist something called "Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC", used in the Coco, some models of NEC 8801 (and 9801?) That was a Microsoft BASIC that had rudimentary disk operations built in, to serve the needed functions of an OS. The disk directory structure of Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC, with directory entris pointing into a linked list allocation table,was the inspiration for Tim Paterson to use as the directory structure for PC-DOS/MS-DOS/86-DOS/QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System" (a placeholder to use during hardware development while waiting for the overdue CP/M-86)) . More details to research, . . . GWBASIC was a version of BASICA of the 5150/PC, but run from MS-DOS, and not requiring the ROMS. That was so that OEMs of MS-DOS could supply BASIC closely matching that of the PC. Some even renamed GWBASIC into "BASICA", topreserve compatability for batch files that called BASIC. Q: What did "GWBASIC" stand for? at the time, some Microsoft people said that it stood for "Gee Whiz BASIC". But more recently, Microsoft denies any memory of what it was, and billg speculated that it stood for "Greg Whitten BASIC". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1408363690159957156==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 1 22:39:08 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 15:39:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2272821626993205397==" --===============2272821626993205397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember that one of the changes that "street" BASICs made was to make the keyword "LET" be optional. Thus, instead of writing LET X = 3 you could write X = 3 unfortunately, that further confused the issue of ASSIGNMENT versus EQUALITY, and many beginners tried to write 3 = X while they certainly would not have tried to write LET 3 = X Sorry, but off the top of my head, I can't recall the many other differences. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2272821626993205397==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed May 1 22:44:18 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 22:44:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1843706058773522552==" --===============1843706058773522552== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IMHO, =E2=80=9CC=E2=80=9D nomenclature really screwed up the equality vs assi= gnment statements. The =3D=3D made it difficult to understand especially if = you came from a language that didn=E2=80=99t have it. Basically all languages= before =E2=80=9CC=E2=80=9D. Sent from my iPhone > On May 1, 2024, at 15:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI remember that one of the changes that "street" BASICs made was t= o make the keyword "LET" be optional. > Thus, instead of writing > LET X =3D 3 > you could write > X =3D 3 >=20 > unfortunately, that further confused the issue of ASSIGNMENT versus EQUALIT= Y, and many beginners tried to write > 3 =3D X > while they certainly would not have tried to write > LET 3 =3D X >=20 >=20 > Sorry, but off the top of my head, I can't recall the many other difference= s. >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1843706058773522552==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed May 1 22:48:01 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 17:47:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2812708600444885335==" --===============2812708600444885335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing System was compiled. On 5/1/2024 5:26 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 1 May 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> Nostalgia keeps pressing ahead: It was 60 yrs. ago that BASIC came into >> existence. I remember very well writing in Apple Basic and GW Basic >> later >> on. As a non-compiled OS, an interpreted OS, it was just the right >> tool for >> a microcomputer with  limited memory. I recall fondly taking code from >> popular magazines and getting them to run. It was thrilling indeed! >> Happy computing, >> Murray 🙂 > > BTW, BASIC ("Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code") was > developed at Dartmouth college by Kurtz and Kemeny.  More than 30 > years later was the first time (or so they claimed) that they EVER got > around to trying ANY of the BASICs based on their original language. > They were APALLED! > They came out with "TRUE BASIC", to counter the various "street BASICs. > > > picky details, . . . BASIC was a non-compiled interpreted LANGUAGE, > not an OS ("Operating System"), at least in the examples you mention.  > (also TRS80 and some models of Commodore) > > > However, to be fair, there did exist something called "Microsoft > Stand-Alone BASIC", used in the Coco, some models of NEC 8801 (and 9801?) > That was a Microsoft BASIC that had rudimentary disk operations built > in, to serve the needed functions of an OS. > The disk directory structure of Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC, with > directory entris pointing into a linked list allocation table,was the > inspiration for Tim Paterson to use as the directory structure for > PC-DOS/MS-DOS/86-DOS/QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System" (a > placeholder to use during hardware development while waiting for the > overdue CP/M-86)) . > > > More details to research, . . . > GWBASIC was a version of BASICA of the 5150/PC, but run from MS-DOS, > and not requiring the ROMS.  That was so that OEMs of MS-DOS could > supply BASIC closely matching that of the PC.  Some even renamed > GWBASIC into "BASICA", topreserve compatability for batch files that > called BASIC. > > Q: What did "GWBASIC" stand for? > at the time, some Microsoft people said that it stood for "Gee Whiz > BASIC".  But more recently, Microsoft denies any memory of what it > was, and billg speculated that it stood for "Greg Whitten BASIC". > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2812708600444885335==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 1 23:05:46 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 16:05:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2509778900322197001==" --===============2509778900322197001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing Syste= m=20 > was compiled. I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were all=20 interpreted. I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a=20 phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80). Thank you for the details of the history. When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first uses=20 of it were primarily to make my source code less easily accessible to=20 would-be infringers. :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2509778900322197001==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed May 1 23:23:40 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 16:23:24 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0718392015248575493==" --===============0718392015248575493== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Considering the time that it was introduced to the world, and what it was intended to do, and what it did do, and how it went on to become something much, much greater than what Kemeny and Kurtz ever envisioned (even though they didn't like much of it), BASIC does not get nearly as much credit as it deserves. Sellam On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > > I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing > System > > was compiled. > > I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were all > interpreted. > > I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a > phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80). > > > Thank you for the details of the history. > > > When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first uses > of it were primarily to make my source code less easily accessible to > would-be infringers. :-) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============0718392015248575493==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Wed May 1 23:34:35 2024 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 19:34:13 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5256247961380466838==" --===============5256247961380466838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone interested in a flavor of BASIC try my version of BWaterBasic for Linux, Windows and DOS at https://yeolpishack.net/repos/KenUnix/BwBasic It's pretty fast. Full source and DOCs are also there. Ken On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 7:05=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > > I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing > System > > was compiled. > > I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were all > interpreted. > > I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a > phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80). > > > Thank you for the details of the history. > > > When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first uses > of it were primarily to make my source code less easily accessible to > would-be infringers. :-) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED --===============5256247961380466838==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed May 1 23:36:10 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 16:35:58 -0700 Message-ID: <0c060123-f5b1-4a80-96d6-2a5716bfbc69@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2064387910206613881==" --===============2064387910206613881== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive programming languages. We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others, based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart. --Chuck --===============2064387910206613881==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed May 1 23:38:02 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 16:37:46 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0c060123-f5b1-4a80-96d6-2a5716bfbc69@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6796626811146858454==" --===============6796626811146858454== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:36=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive > programming languages. We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others, > based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart. > > --Chuck > And where are all those other languages today? I rest my case. ;) Sellam --===============6796626811146858454==-- From curiousmarc3@gmail.com Wed May 1 23:39:02 2024 From: Curious Marc To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo Model 40 Series - Disturbed head positioning Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 16:38:46 -0700 Message-ID: <98259082-19DF-454F-B58F-A58B1C6DE466@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6937851447232536573==" --===============6937851447232536573== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Power supply problem? Marc > On Apr 30, 2024, at 8:58=E2=80=AFAM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHello everyone >=20 > I need your help to identify an issue on my Diablo Model 40 Series. I don't= know where to look, it's so vast ! >=20 > Here's the problem: > When RUN is activated, the drive begins its spin up and simultaneously depl= oys the heads (normal) but instead of stabilizing them, the Head Positioner r= eceives a burst of reverse/forward micro signals. The heads "vibrate", this c= reates an audible frequency "BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR", and it is infinite, the he= ads are never loaded and the drive never reaches READY. >=20 > At first I thought that perhaps the track zero sensor was defective or some= thing of the same order but when I disengage RUN mode, the drive unloads the = heads and they should be in a fixed position, here they continue to reverse/f= orward but more slowly than in RUN mode. > Because the heads continues to mess around even in unload mode, this a prio= ri excludes alignment problems. >=20 > Here is a video of that issue: >=20 > https://youtu.be/HzzxLnSdEOg >=20 > Other information, if I cut the power while the drive is in RUN mode, it do= es not do an emergency retraction of the heads, related problem? > I was hoping for a power supply problem but all the voltages and even on th= e main board cage seem ok (with a multimeter). >=20 > If one of you had already encountered this problem of lack of head stabiliz= ation and continuous reverse/forward on this type of drive? >=20 > Thanks ! >=20 > Dominique >=20 --===============6937851447232536573==-- From turing@shaw.ca Wed May 1 23:51:08 2024 From: Norman Jaffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 17:43:55 -0600 Message-ID: <1431467353.118695399.1714607035429.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8317971950561551606==" --===============8317971950561551606== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable APL is very much alive - it was invented in the '60s.=20 Lisp is slightly older and it, as well, is still in active use - and it's old= er than FORTRAN, which was the inspiration for BASIC.=20 From: "Sellam Abraham via cctalk" =20 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" =20 Cc: "Sellam Abraham" =20 Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 4:37:46 PM=20 Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC=20 On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk =20 wrote:=20 > To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive=20 > programming languages. We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others,=20 > based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart.=20 >=20 > --Chuck=20 >=20 And where are all those other languages today?=20 I rest my case.=20 ;)=20 Sellam=20 --===============8317971950561551606==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 1 23:51:19 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 16:51:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0c060123-f5b1-4a80-96d6-2a5716bfbc69@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8988241347909972262==" --===============8988241347909972262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 1 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive > programming languages. We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others, > based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart. What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had APL, instead of BASIC? APL was incredible. I was amazed. I was immediately able to do a few simple things that were useful for my boss and myself, and writing simple programs within hours. Its matrix arithmetic was awesome. APL typeball on a selectric terminal at GSFC, . . . Some of the keys were re-labeled, but there was a chart on the wall of which keyboard characters were which APL symbols. My cousin (David Ungar) referred to APL as "terse". He said that you could write a word processing program in a single line, but that was well past my abilities. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8988241347909972262==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed May 1 23:55:39 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 16:55:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2677368402197544061==" --===============2677368402197544061== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/1/24 16:37, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:36=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive >> programming languages. We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others, >> based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart. >> >> --Chuck >> >=20 > And where are all those other languages today? How much of the original BASIC language endures? You know, single-character or character-followed-by-number variable names, floating point only, etc.? Yet FORTRAN, the granddaddy of them all, continues on... It should be noted that FORTRAN celebrates its 70th anniversary this year: https://www.edn.com/1st-fortran-program-runs-september-20-1954/ To the best of my knowledge no supercomputer application code has ever been written in BASIC, but I"m willing to be disabused of that notion. --Chuck --===============2677368402197544061==-- From Michael@jongleur.co.uk Thu May 2 00:03:51 2024 From: Michael Mulhern To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 10:03:34 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5642688926290176818==" --===============5642688926290176818== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In ‘81 FORTRAN77 was the first language I learnt, but it was BASIC that started my IT career. I was writing programs at Griffith University for various lecturers and research staff. This was before the uni even had a dedicated Computer Science Degree. If it wasn’t for BASIC, I’d probably be a High School teacher. What a career change. //m On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 9:34 AM, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Anyone interested in a flavor of BASIC try my version of BWaterBasic for > Linux, Windows and DOS > at https://yeolpishack.net/repos/KenUnix/BwBasic > > It's pretty fast. Full source and DOCs are also there. > > Ken > > On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 7:05 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > > > I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing > > System > > > was compiled. > > > > I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were all > > interpreted. > > > > I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a > > phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80). > > > > > > Thank you for the details of the history. > > > > > > When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first uses > > of it were primarily to make my source code less easily accessible to > > would-be infringers. :-) > > > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > > > > -- > End of line > JOB TERMINATED > --===============5642688926290176818==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 2 00:04:51 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 17:04:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0944352884832508303==" --===============0944352884832508303== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/1/24 16:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > APL was incredible.  I was amazed.  I was immediately able to do a few > simple things that were useful for my boss and myself, and writing > simple programs within hours.  Its matrix arithmetic was awesome. APL > typeball on a selectric terminal at GSFC, . . . > Some of the keys were re-labeled, but there was a chart on the wall of > which keyboard characters were which APL symbols. It was indeed. It was also one of the first languages implemented on a microprocessor-based personal computer system. (MCM-70). To me, APL is logical--strict right-to-left precedence; simple array and matrix operations. I've long wondered if we introduced students to APL as a first language, what our applications code would look like today. My friend Bruce, called it "That Iverson Language". It's interesting to note that the Iverson book was published in 1962, but an implementation (under 7090 IBSYS) didn't come about until 1965, although preliminary implementation as PAT had been done on a 1620 (!) in 1963. --Chuck --===============0944352884832508303==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 2 00:14:15 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 17:14:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3495626795988822838==" --===============3495626795988822838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> APL was incredible.  I was amazed.  I was immediately able to do a few >> simple things that were useful for my boss and myself, and writing >> simple programs within hours.  Its matrix arithmetic was awesome. APL >> typeball on a selectric terminal at GSFC, . . . >> Some of the keys were re-labeled, but there was a chart on the wall of >> which keyboard characters were which APL symbols. On Wed, 1 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > It was indeed. It was also one of the first languages implemented on a > microprocessor-based personal computer system. (MCM-70). > To me, APL is logical--strict right-to-left precedence; simple array and > matrix operations. > I've long wondered if we introduced students to APL as a first language, > what our applications code would look like today. > My friend Bruce, called it "That Iverson Language". > It's interesting to note that the Iverson book was published in 1962, > but an implementation (under 7090 IBSYS) didn't come about until 1965, > although preliminary implementation as PAT had been done on a 1620 (!) > in 1963. The extended character set was an important obstacle to its acceptance. Besides keyboard (masking tape) and output (APL typeball, special character generator, or having to substitute combinations of character), many people were unwilling to even try something with a different character set. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3495626795988822838==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 2 00:20:35 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 17:20:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7549163619445333655==" --===============7549163619445333655== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 1 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Yet FORTRAN, the granddaddy of them all, continues on... It should be > noted that FORTRAN celebrates its 70th anniversary this year: I didn't start until May 29, 1965. I had previously been doing some keypunching, and 084 counting sorter. IBM did the data processing for the CBS "National Drivers Test"; they actually succeeded in using port-a-punch cards sent through the US postal system! My father did the analysis. You can see him behind Walter Cronkite, frantically manually adding numbers where IBM's flawed results didn't add up close enough to 100%. He decided that contracting out programming was too risky. On May 29, he placed a copy of Mc Cracken and Decima Anderson's books on the dining room table. And, we started to learn the basics of programming. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7549163619445333655==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 2 00:24:02 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 19:23:52 -0500 Message-ID: <740e08a1-4061-4c38-a547-cdedead91236@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0224101564992825179==" --===============0224101564992825179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I remember replacing the character generator eprom (the type with the window for UV erasing) on an old ATI EGA video board so that I could have the APL character set. On 5/1/2024 7:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> APL was incredible.  I was amazed.  I was immediately able to do a few >>> simple things that were useful for my boss and myself, and writing >>> simple programs within hours.  Its matrix arithmetic was awesome. APL >>> typeball on a selectric terminal at GSFC, . . . >>> Some of the keys were re-labeled, but there was a chart on the wall of >>> which keyboard characters were which APL symbols. > > On Wed, 1 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> It was indeed.  It was also one of the first languages implemented on a >> microprocessor-based personal computer system.  (MCM-70). >> To me, APL is logical--strict right-to-left precedence; simple array and >> matrix operations. >> I've long wondered if we introduced students to APL as a first language, >> what our applications code would look like today. >> My friend Bruce, called it "That Iverson Language". >> It's interesting to note that the Iverson book was published in 1962, >> but an implementation (under 7090 IBSYS) didn't come about until 1965, >> although preliminary implementation as PAT had been done on a 1620 (!) >> in 1963. > > The extended character set was an important obstacle to its > acceptance. Besides keyboard (masking tape) and output (APL typeball, > special character generator, or having to substitute combinations of > character), many people were unwilling to even try something with a > different character set. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0224101564992825179==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 2 00:38:33 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 18:18:29 -0500 Message-ID: <9b31d020-dc87-48ce-b916-87c4be41ebe9@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4051197001641453575==" --===============4051197001641453575== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Fred, It's not a big deal.  I was exposed to the DTSS as a 7th grader because I was going to a boarding school near by in 1972. The school I was at had a PDP-8/L and I became an early adopter computer geek.🙂 On 5/1/2024 6:05 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote: >> I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing >> System was compiled. > > I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were > all interpreted. > > I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a > phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80). > > > Thank you for the details of the history. > > > When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first > uses of it were primarily to make my source code less easily > accessible to would-be infringers. :-) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4051197001641453575==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 2 00:55:23 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 17:55:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <740e08a1-4061-4c38-a547-cdedead91236@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4914736649589887937==" --===============4914736649589887937== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > I remember replacing the character generator eprom (the type with the windo= w=20 > for UV erasing) on an old ATI EGA video board so that I could have the APL = > character set. sweet At least one of the ATI EGA boards had a daughter board available to be=20 able to use it in Compaq luggables. (Compaq CGA, Compaq EGA, ATI EGA with=20 daughter board) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4914736649589887937==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu May 2 01:07:17 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 21:06:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4937758476458686297==" --===============4937758476458686297== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/1/2024 7:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have > had APL, instead of BASIC? > Maybe not instead of BASIC but I had APL on my TRS-80. bill --===============4937758476458686297==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu May 2 01:10:49 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 21:10:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4775358859633130781==" --===============4775358859633130781== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/1/2024 8:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/1/24 16:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> APL was incredible.  I was amazed.  I was immediately able to do a few >> simple things that were useful for my boss and myself, and writing >> simple programs within hours.  Its matrix arithmetic was awesome. APL >> typeball on a selectric terminal at GSFC, . . . >> Some of the keys were re-labeled, but there was a chart on the wall of >> which keyboard characters were which APL symbols. > > It was indeed. It was also one of the first languages implemented on a > microprocessor-based personal computer system. (MCM-70). > > To me, APL is logical--strict right-to-left precedence; simple array and > matrix operations. > > I've long wondered if we introduced students to APL as a first language, > what our applications code would look like today. Marist College did. We had an intern from there when I was at West Point. He was not better than any of the interns I later ran into and because the only language he was learning at Marist was APL (after all, this was IBM-Land) he was really not of much use to us in a Univac-1100 shop. bill --===============4775358859633130781==-- From kantexplain@protonmail.com Thu May 2 01:45:55 2024 From: Just Kant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 01:36:07 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3332574782614312452==" --===============3332574782614312452== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My first experience with programming (BASIC) and even computers was on an Ata= ri 400 in 9th grade. I hated those damned things, I guess mainly on account o= f the membrane keyboard. Elfin tight wads. In 10th I again decided to enroll = in computer courses, FARTRAN and then COBOL. Mostly on teletype terminals tha= t were arguably more unpleasant experience then BASIC on the 400. We had at l= east 1 Commodore Pet im the "lab". It would have been nice to use that which = had an actual keyboard and screen.=20 --===============3332574782614312452==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Thu May 2 01:53:58 2024 From: brad@techtimetraveller.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 18:53:43 -0700 Message-ID: <07cb01da9c33$90937920$b1ba6b60$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0647123002625466966==" --===============0647123002625466966== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing festival before. After years of only being able to watch others attend the ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here. Super excited. I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even got me two tables which is awesome. Like, how do you prepare for these things? What things that you didn't think of going into your first show do you wish you had? I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the risks of transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention itself). Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be in terms of theme. Brad --===============0647123002625466966==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 2 02:21:27 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 19:21:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <07cb01da9c33$90937920$b1ba6b60$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0939654333175220591==" --===============0939654333175220591== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bring lots of business cards. Even if you aren't running a business, it's a lot better than standing there writing your contact information for everybofy that you want to stay in touch with. paper, pens, pencils, post-it notes, stapler, duct tape, voltmeter, batteries, flashlight, cash, blank disks and memory cards, screwdrivers, vise-grips, hammer. Even if none of those fit in with your plans, those items will help enormously to deal with unexpected situations. It isn't so much how well prepared you are, as how well you can adapt when needed. For example, one year at Comdex, we rented an seven foot by seven foot booth. A year later, at the show, the management realized that that little block of space was something that should not have been rented. So, they gave us a ten by ten. How to you make a seven foot wide back sign at least look like it fills a ten foot space? Home Depot for some aluminum angle iron, fabric store for drapes. Another time, when we had a 10 x 10, next to a couple who we knew well, we had to help them. He ended up in the hospital, but his wife was determined to do the show, anyway. So, we combine the two 10x10s into a 10x20, with only a "virtual" wall in between, and stuck the leads table with the imprinter, etc, in the middle. We always had a tiny refrigerator in our booth. Handing Jerry Pournelle a cold beer got us a lot of free ink. Snack foods for hospitality and/or if things are too busy at lunch time to goget anything. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Wed, 1 May 2024, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing > festival before. After years of only being able to watch others attend the > ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here. Super > excited. I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even got me > two tables which is awesome. > > > > Like, how do you prepare for these things? What things that you didn't > think of going into your first show do you wish you had? > > > > I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my > Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the risks of > transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention > itself). Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be in terms > of theme. > > > > Brad > --===============0939654333175220591==-- From brain@jbrain.com Thu May 2 02:36:29 2024 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 21:36:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6640513848234097404==" --===============6640513848234097404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/1/2024 9:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Bring lots of business cards.  Even if you aren't running a business, > it's a lot better than standing there writing your contact information > for everybofy that you want to stay in touch with. Well, or a couple pieces of paper with QR codes for your web site, or email address, or however you want to be contacted.  I agree writing stuff down is nonsensical. > > paper, pens, pencils, post-it notes, stapler, duct tape, voltmeter, > batteries, flashlight, cash, blank disks and memory cards, > screwdrivers, vise-grips, hammer.  Even if none of those fit in with > your plans, those items will help enormously to deal with unexpected > situations. travel USB cords (you never know) a long power strip with multiple taps.  6-10ft if you can. a few extra of the power cords like goes on newer PCs and such. You may need them as-is, you may need to cut one and hard wire it in.  I have tons of them around here, so a few in the box is no big deal. wire stripper, side nips.  In fact, if you are electronically minded at all, I'd throw an old soldering iron, a bit of solder, wick, needle nose pliers, as well. I am literally packing for a show tonight, and I am carrying all of the above. My paper, pens, pencils, post it, duct tape, batteries, cash, blank disks, memory cards, blank CDs, blank DVDs, small ethernet cable, small USB cables (the rollup kind) are all in my computer bag, so they go everywhere, as well as earphones, stereo splitter, a few checks, travel power supply for my main laptop, extra travel mouse, USB pen drives. travel LCD projector a few RCA patch cords (work for audio or video, though I normally bring home computers, you may not find as much need) signage I tend to bring some essential electronics/sockets/switches/wire as well The computers and peripherals I intend to show. > > >> Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing >> festival before.  After years of only being able to watch others >> attend the >> ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here.  >> Super >> excited.  I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even >> got me >> two tables which is awesome. >> >> >> >> Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't >> think of going into your first show do you wish you had? If you are doing a presentation, finish it before you get there, if at all possible.  There's always people to chat with and other things drawing your attention away while at the show, and doing a presentation while at the show is always hard, if not impossible. I've done, but I do not recommend. As well, just like with any audience, ensure your prez is interesting.  Try it on someone else first.  Don't read the slides if that's your medium.  QR code for more information is nice. >> >> >> >> I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my >> Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the >> risks of >> transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention >> itself).  Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be >> in terms >> of theme. Maybe for the first one, be a bit conservative.  I've taken some high value rare stuff to shows, but you have to pay more attention to those items before, during, and after the show, and I think you'd like to enjoy the show for the moment. Whatever you bring, make sure it is doing something.  Looking at a bare computer not doing anything is not an interesting exhibit. I've been guilty of this, but it's still true. Games are always a good draw, even if that seems like cheating. Now, off to finish packing. >> >> >> >> Brad >> -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============6640513848234097404==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 2 02:52:28 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 19:52:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0331502212281505130==" --===============0331502212281505130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 1 May 2024, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Games are always a good draw, even if that seems like cheating. In the early days of the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga, (and I may have the two reversed in the following anecdote), Atari had a nice display of a bouncing checkered beach ball. Amiga had almost nothing. But, the second day, everybody except the booth bimbos at Commodore looked haggard, but their machine was showing a bouncing checkered beach ball. And it was bouncing faster than Atari's! If you really want to be strategic, have a different demo available for each day :-) Sorry that I forgot to mention soldering iron and related tools; I had one living in my car, so didn't think of it as a separate item. My assistant hired a pretty girlfriend as a booth bimbo. She got us invited to all of the parties (and some Comdex parties are incredible) In my company everybody creates their own job title. I am "a programmer". My assistant alternated between "VP" and "Emperor of the dark lords of the universe". Our booth bimbo gave herself the title, "BAIT" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0331502212281505130==-- From gavin@learn.bio Thu May 2 03:44:17 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 22:44:01 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1033471103499026474==" --===============1033471103499026474== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BASIC was always a popular language in the Hewlett-Packard world. From the HP 2000 timesharing BASIC that was popular in educational settings similar to the original DTSS, To BASIC/3000 on the HP 3000 which was a first-class language with both interpreter and compiler (producing very fast code), to the HP 250/260 which used BASIC as their primary development language, Rocky Mountain BASIC in the technical world, the Series 80 microcomputers, HP Business Basic again on the 3000 which was probably largest and most complex language system ever created for the Classic 16-bit 3000 systems and which was intended to be both a migration path for 250/260 applications to MPE and to be a new standard Basic across multiple HP platforms. From 1980-1986 or so I worked for an HP OEM / ISV whose "ERP" (we didn't call them that yet) package was written in BASIC on the HP 3000. It was limited to Letter-digit variable names but was quite performant and had its own API into the IMAGE DBMS etc. BASIC got used for lots of "serious" development. --===============1033471103499026474==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 2 03:59:11 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 20:59:01 -0700 Message-ID: <0aa879d3-fe20-4fed-8eea-19c10b571b5a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6880711078084054971==" --===============6880711078084054971== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am I the only one on this list who designed and implemented a business BASIC? (I did have two programmers to work with me. Did it in about 4 months). Multiuser on an 8085; later versions were re-hosted on Xenix. https://archive.org/details/durango-star-basic-dx-85-m-reference-manual-5th-e= dition --Chuck --===============6880711078084054971==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Thu May 2 04:37:48 2024 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 04:37:33 +0000 Message-ID: <185358530.3342151.1714624653578@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1963183669906615328==" --===============1963183669906615328== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Then there=C2=A0 was Phantasm for basic=C2=A0 Gavin wrote! Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 8:44 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: BASIC was always a popular language in the Hewlett-Packard worl= d. From the HP 2000 timesharing BASIC that was popular in educational settings similar to the original DTSS, To BASIC/3000 on the HP 3000 which was a first-class language with both interpreter and compiler (producing very fast code), to the HP 250/260 which used BASIC as their primary development language, Rocky Mountain BASIC in the technical world, the Series 80 microcomputers, HP Business Basic again on the 3000 which was probably largest and most complex language system ever created for the Classic 16-bit 3000 systems and which was intended to be both a migration path for 250/260 applications to MPE and to be a new standard Basic across multiple HP platforms. From 1980-1986 or so I worked for an HP OEM / ISV whose "ERP" (we didn't call them that yet) package was written in BASIC on the HP 3000. It was limited to Letter-digit variable names but was quite performant and had its own API into the IMAGE DBMS etc. BASIC got used for lots of "serious" development. =20 --===============1963183669906615328==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu May 2 05:13:17 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 22:13:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3128304824267677121==" --===============3128304824267677121== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 1, 2024, 7:48 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > My paper, pens, pencils, post it, duct tape, batteries, cash, blank > disks, memory cards, blank CDs, blank DVDs, small ethernet cable, small > USB cables (the rollup kind) are all in my computer bag, so they go > everywhere, as well as earphones, stereo splitter, a few checks, travel > power supply for my main laptop, extra travel mouse, USB pen drives. > Don't forget to bring a towel. Sellam --===============3128304824267677121==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu May 2 05:17:55 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 22:17:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5514934502172331113==" --===============5514934502172331113== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 1, 2024, 8:03 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Our booth bimbo gave herself the title, "BAIT" > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred > Boobs And Invitation Technician? Sellam > --===============5514934502172331113==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu May 2 05:31:36 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 22:26:50 -0700 Message-ID: <00a601da9c51$563f8b60$02bea220$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4380754035930712129==" --===============4380754035930712129== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Don't forget to bring a towel. > > Sellam The fact that we all probably got that reference is the amazing part..... -Ali --===============4380754035930712129==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Thu May 2 06:00:50 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 01:00:44 -0500 Message-ID: <1326616849.2071104.1714629644967@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8802677259496679279==" --===============8802677259496679279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recall IITRAN for the IBM 7044, and am i correct that there was an IITRAN f= or the Univac 1108, which was significantly different? 
--Carey
> On 05/01/2024 6:37 PM CDT Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:36=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive > > programming languages. We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others, > > based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart. > > > > --Chuck > > >=20 > And where are all those other languages today? >=20 > I rest my case. >=20 > ;) >=20 > Sellam --===============8802677259496679279==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Thu May 2 06:03:34 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC and other languraes Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 01:03:27 -0500 Message-ID: <1937261899.2071115.1714629807566@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <1431467353.118695399.1714607035429.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6221905120902797528==" --===============6221905120902797528== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I very much miss CMS PIPELINES which was ported to MVS, but afaik never beyon= d IBM mainframes. --===============6221905120902797528==-- From dce@skynet.be Thu May 2 06:44:42 2024 From: Dominique Carlier To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo Model 40 Series - Disturbed head positioning Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 08:44:30 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <98259082-19DF-454F-B58F-A58B1C6DE466@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2788943011626971683==" --===============2788943011626971683== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Marc ! It should be so great if it was just the PSU, everything else is hyper=20 overkill in terms of complexity but on the multimeter all the voltages=20 show the correct values, including +15V and -15V (generated from the=20 +24V and -24V of the power supply). But is it possible that one of these currents, for example the=20 stabalized +5V=C2=A0 is 'parasitized' ? How can it be diagnosed? With an=20 oscilloscope I suppose? The interesting thing now is the lack of emergency retraction of the=20 heads if the power is cut during RUN mode. There is an unfuse +24V=20 provided for this purpose but it is present in the power supply. If that=20 problem is common to the others issues, this leads me to think that=20 there is an issue at the logical level, in this case the breakdown=20 hypotheses are unfortunately infinite (summing junction on SO board,=20 servo positioner, SR board, sensors, ...). If it's not common, it should=20 be a dead capacitor concerning the emergency retraction of the heads,=20 and a dead amplifier transistor on the heat sink board dedicated to the=20 plus/minus (forward/reverse) servo positioner, who knows ? Dominique On 2/05/2024 01:38, Curious Marc wrote: > Power supply problem? > Marc > >> On Apr 30, 2024, at 8:58=E2=80=AFAM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFHello everyone >> >> I need your help to identify an issue on my Diablo Model 40 Series. I don'= t know where to look, it's so vast ! >> >> Here's the problem: >> When RUN is activated, the drive begins its spin up and simultaneously dep= loys the heads (normal) but instead of stabilizing them, the Head Positioner = receives a burst of reverse/forward micro signals. The heads "vibrate", this = creates an audible frequency "BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR", and it is infinite, the h= eads are never loaded and the drive never reaches READY. >> >> At first I thought that perhaps the track zero sensor was defective or som= ething of the same order but when I disengage RUN mode, the drive unloads the= heads and they should be in a fixed position, here they continue to reverse/= forward but more slowly than in RUN mode. >> Because the heads continues to mess around even in unload mode, this a pri= ori excludes alignment problems. >> >> Here is a video of that issue: >> >> https://youtu.be/HzzxLnSdEOg >> >> Other information, if I cut the power while the drive is in RUN mode, it d= oes not do an emergency retraction of the heads, related problem? >> I was hoping for a power supply problem but all the voltages and even on t= he main board cage seem ok (with a multimeter). >> >> If one of you had already encountered this problem of lack of head stabili= zation and continuous reverse/forward on this type of drive? >> >> Thanks ! >> >> Dominique >> --===============2788943011626971683==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Thu May 2 07:27:44 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 02:27:37 -0500 Message-ID: <580583907.2071327.1714634857478@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <00a601da9c51$563f8b60$02bea220$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1711619625048773707==" --===============1711619625048773707== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And a long scarf? 
--Carey
> On 05/02/2024 12:26 AM CDT Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Don't forget to bring a towel. > > > > Sellam > > The fact that we all probably got that reference is the amazing part..... > > -Ali --===============1711619625048773707==-- From lists@skogtun.org Thu May 2 09:00:12 2024 From: Harald Arnesen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 11:00:01 +0200 Message-ID: <379b66c0-23fb-446a-9672-6e9f3859f44a@skogtun.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7968235861693358996==" --===============7968235861693358996== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Scott via cctalk [02/05/2024 05.44]: > BASIC was always a popular language in the Hewlett-Packard world. From > the HP 2000 timesharing BASIC that was popular in educational settings > similar to the original DTSS, To BASIC/3000 on the HP 3000 which was a > first-class language with both interpreter and compiler (producing > very fast code), to the HP 250/260 which used BASIC as their primary > development language, Rocky Mountain BASIC in the technical world, the > Series 80 microcomputers, HP Business Basic again on the 3000 which > was probably largest and most complex language system ever created for > the Classic 16-bit 3000 systems and which was intended to be both a > migration path for 250/260 applications to MPE and to be a new > standard Basic across multiple HP platforms. I learned programming in BASIC/3000 in the early 80s. The biggest problem with that language was that you could only have short variable names (1 letter + one digit, if I remember right). I and two other students wrote kind of an inventory management system for a Norwegian company as a project in class. Oh, the fun of remembering what the variable names were in a program of some thousand lines... I actually preferred the BASIC on my Commodore 64, especially when I got the Simons' BASIC cartridge. -- Hilsen Harald --===============7968235861693358996==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Thu May 2 09:07:06 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 10:06:50 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1326616849.2071104.1714629644967@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1497566750072845821==" --===============1497566750072845821== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I learnt to program at uni on prompt-48, an 8048 development system. Hand-coded assembly, entered in hex and saved to EPROM. Later I moved to z80 with an assembler hosted on a pdp 11/34. Later still I had to do a customer project specified to be written in BASIC on an apple II (no square brackets on this phone keyboard!). I learned much respect for people who had to code in that crummy inflexible language :). Briefly learned some pascal then with much relief discovered C. Not really found anything better for the things I like to work on. On Thu, 2 May 2024, 07:08 CAREY SCHUG via cctalk, wrote: > I recall IITRAN for the IBM 7044, and am i correct that there was an > IITRAN for the Univac 1108, which was significantly different? > > 
--Carey
> > > On 05/01/2024 6:37 PM CDT Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > > > To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive > > > programming languages. We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of > others, > > > based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing > apart. > > > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > And where are all those other languages today? > > > > I rest my case. > > > > ;) > > > > Sellam > --===============1497566750072845821==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu May 2 10:56:03 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 11:55:45 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1993181885153948222==" --===============1993181885153948222== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 00:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had > APL, instead of BASIC? To be perfectly honest I think the home computer boom wouldn't have happened, and it would have crashed and burned in the 1970s, with the result that microcomputers remained firmly under corporate control. I have been watching the APL world with interest since I discovered it at university, and I still don't understand a word of it. I've been watching Lisp for just 15 years or so and I find it unreadable too. I think there are widely different levels of mental flexibility among smart humans and one person's "this just requires a small effort but you get so much in return!" is someone else's eternally impossible, unclimbable mountain. After some 40 years in computers now, I still like BASIC best, with Fortran and Pascal very distant runners-up and everything else from C to Python is basically somewhere between Minoan Linear A and Linear B to me. I think I lack the mental flexibility, and I think I'm better than most of hoi polloi. If the early machines had used something cryptic like APL or Forth I reckon we'd never have had a generation of child programmers. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1993181885153948222==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu May 2 11:31:08 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 07:30:51 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2105576312844196165==" --===============2105576312844196165== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A lot of people regret it later because they dont think they'll need it when packing but I always bring a bathing suit just in case. The vcf exhibitor pool is a nice way to relax after a long day of showing. On Thu, May 2, 2024, 1:13 AM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, May 1, 2024, 7:48=E2=80=AFPM Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > My paper, pens, pencils, post it, duct tape, batteries, cash, blank > > disks, memory cards, blank CDs, blank DVDs, small ethernet cable, small > > USB cables (the rollup kind) are all in my computer bag, so they go > > everywhere, as well as earphones, stereo splitter, a few checks, travel > > power supply for my main laptop, extra travel mouse, USB pen drives. > > > > Don't forget to bring a towel. > > Sellam > --===============2105576312844196165==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Thu May 2 13:07:22 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 09:06:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5395762967156131313==" --===============5395762967156131313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m not certain what constitutes the original foundations of BASIC(Beginner=E2=80=99s All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) but to my kno= wledge it began with J. G. Kemeny and T. E. Kurtz at Dartmouth College in 1964. Apple BASIC and GWBASIC were well established when I began experimenting with them in early 1980=E2=80=99s. By mid-80=E2=80=99s I was running both on = a PC and Coleco ADAM. I wrote a program using GWBASIC for cataloging my books and magazines. Happy computing, Murray =F0=9F=99=82 On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 6:56=E2=80=AFAM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 00:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had > > APL, instead of BASIC? > > To be perfectly honest I think the home computer boom wouldn't have > happened, and it would have crashed and burned in the 1970s, with the > result that microcomputers remained firmly under corporate control. > > I have been watching the APL world with interest since I discovered it > at university, and I still don't understand a word of it. > > I've been watching Lisp for just 15 years or so and I find it unreadable > too. > > I think there are widely different levels of mental flexibility among > smart humans and one person's "this just requires a small effort but > you get so much in return!" is someone else's eternally impossible, > unclimbable mountain. > > After some 40 years in computers now, I still like BASIC best, with > Fortran and Pascal very distant runners-up and everything else from C > to Python is basically somewhere between Minoan Linear A and Linear B > to me. > > I think I lack the mental flexibility, and I think I'm better than > most of hoi polloi. > > If the early machines had used something cryptic like APL or Forth I > reckon we'd never have had a generation of child programmers. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > --===============5395762967156131313==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu May 2 13:19:38 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] MS-DOS source code Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 08:19:33 -0500 Message-ID: <1889571449.10288104.1714655973046@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3398740071427275895==" --===============3398740071427275895== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some may find this interesting. Microsoft has released the source for MS-DOS= versions 1.25, 2, and 4. https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============3398740071427275895==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 2 13:22:46 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 09:22:39 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2462169188401754858==" --===============2462169188401754858== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 1, 2024, at 6:26 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > The Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code (BASIC) >=20 > Developed by John G. Kemeny and Thomas E. Kurtz at Dartmouth College in 196= 3. This ran on the Dartmouth Time Sharing System (DTSS) which was an early t= ime sharing system running on Honeywell and GE Main Frames with Datanet syste= ms running the terminal interfaces. >=20 > This system was intended to be an online code/run/debug cycle system rather= than a batch processing system like most Cobol and Fortran compilers were. >=20 > BASIC was actually their third language attempt to simplify the syntax of l= anguages like Fortran and Algol. >=20 > There are literally 100's of dialects of BASIC, both as compilers (as was t= he original) and interpreters and even pseudo compilers. >=20 > Like many of us older members of this thread, some form of BASIC was our "c= omputer milk language" (our first computer language). >=20 > Some early microcomputers even wrote their operating systems in some form o= f BASIC. >=20 > I learned basic in September of 1972 on a 4K PDP-8/L running EduSystem 10 B= asic with time also spent at the Kiewit Computation Center at Dartmouth (as a= 12 year old) running Dartmouth Basic. >=20 > Let's hear your earliest introduction to BASIC. BASIC was my fourth language, after ALGOL-60, FORTRAN-II, and Philips PR8000 = assembler. The first version I met was BASIC-PLUS, on RSTS-11. That's a com= piler (to threaded code, like P-code, not to machine code). Soon after that = I worked on RT-11 BASIC, which is an interpreter, and modified it to be a lab= machine control system with interrupts and analog and digital I/O. Someone commented on "what if the first PCs had run APL". Shortly after read= ing the famous "Tablet" paper (Stephen Wolfram and his students at U of Illin= ois) I played a bit with that notion: a tablet computer supporting APL so you= could program quickly because it requires so few characters per unit of work= . The crucial miss in that concept is that PCs are not sold (primarily) to p= rogrammers but to application users, and for that an APL-focused machine is n= o advantage. paul --===============2462169188401754858==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Thu May 2 13:27:16 2024 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS source code Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 06:27:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1889571449.10288104.1714655973046@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6664750734163980730==" --===============6664750734163980730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2 May 2024, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Some may find this interesting. Microsoft has released the source for MS-D= OS versions 1.25, 2, and 4. > > https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS > I think the most interesting thing about this is that they published it=20 under an actual open source license (MIT) and not that nonsense that was=20 used when they released 1.25 and 2.0 through the CHM years ago. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6664750734163980730==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu May 2 13:53:45 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS source code Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 09:53:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4985838922847859481==" --===============4985838922847859481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/2/2024 9:27 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 2 May 2024, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > >> Some may find this interesting.  Microsoft has released the source for >> MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2, and 4. >> >> https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS >> > > I think the most interesting thing about this is that they published it > under an actual open source license (MIT) and not that nonsense that was > used when they released 1.25 and 2.0 through the CHM years ago. > All kind of meaningless as we have had an Open Source DOS equivalent for 3 decades already. bill --===============4985838922847859481==-- From mjkerpan@kerpan.com Thu May 2 14:01:20 2024 From: Michael Kerpan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS source code Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 10:01:01 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB573755ED019E8C8B1DBE83B8ED182=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5711640490755347919==" --===============5711640490755347919== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's historically interesting, plus it might help the FreeDOS folks plug some compatibility holes since they can now legally look at the old code to see how it does things. Mike On Thu, May 2, 2024, 9:53 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 5/2/2024 9:27 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 2 May 2024, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Some may find this interesting. Microsoft has released the source for > >> MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2, and 4. > >> > >> https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS > >> > > > > I think the most interesting thing about this is that they published it > > under an actual open source license (MIT) and not that nonsense that was > > used when they released 1.25 and 2.0 through the CHM years ago. > > > > All kind of meaningless as we have had an Open Source DOS equivalent > for 3 decades already. > > bill > > --===============5711640490755347919==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 2 14:03:04 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 10:02:56 -0400 Message-ID: <58EBD7F7-6738-45CA-B575-A01D116C116E@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5593590989870687415==" --===============5593590989870687415== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 2, 2024, at 6:55 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 00:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >>=20 >> What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had >> APL, instead of BASIC? >=20 > To be perfectly honest I think the home computer boom wouldn't have > happened, and it would have crashed and burned in the 1970s, with the > result that microcomputers remained firmly under corporate control. >=20 > I have been watching the APL world with interest since I discovered it > at university, and I still don't understand a word of it. >=20 > I've been watching Lisp for just 15 years or so and I find it unreadable to= o. >=20 > I think there are widely different levels of mental flexibility among > smart humans and one person's "this just requires a small effort but > you get so much in return!" is someone else's eternally impossible, > unclimbable mountain. That sounds right to me. > After some 40 years in computers now, I still like BASIC best, with > Fortran and Pascal very distant runners-up and everything else from C > to Python is basically somewhere between Minoan Linear A and Linear B > to me. Well, Linear B isn't that hard, it's just Greek. :-) My guess is that the languages you use routinely are the ones that work best,= and which languages those are depends on where you work and on what projects= . For example, I don't *like* C (I call it a "feebly typed language") and C+= + not either, but my job uses these two plus Python. Now Python is actually my favorite (though recently I've done a bunch of work= in FORTH). I like to mention that, in 50 years or so, I have only encounter= ed two programming languages where I went from "no knowledge" to "wrote and d= ebugged a substantial program" in only one week -- Pascal (in graduate school= ) and Python (one job ago). paul --===============5593590989870687415==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 2 14:14:28 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 10:14:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM5PR1001MB2185D7E320AD28645C62657CE4192=40DM5PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2185=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1884355866348077408==" --===============1884355866348077408== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 1, 2024, at 6:44 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > IMHO, =E2=80=9CC=E2=80=9D nomenclature really screwed up the equality vs as= signment statements. The =3D=3D made it difficult to understand especially i= f you came from a language that didn=E2=80=99t have it. Basically all languag= es before =E2=80=9CC=E2=80=9D. Well, sort of. Some languages confused the two by using the same token -- BA= SIC is a notorious example. ALGOL, FORTRAN, C, APL, POP-2 all solve the prob= lem by using two different tokens; the only question is which of the two func= tions is marked by the "=3D" token. In ALGOL , APL, and I think POP-2 it's e= quality, in FORTRAN and C it's assignment. Either works but you have to rem= ember which it is; if you use languages of each kind then you may get confuse= d at times. :-( paul --===============1884355866348077408==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 2 14:27:02 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 07:26:42 -0700 Message-ID: <2fd7a086-ef4a-40c7-90d1-e4227e6403f5@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1326616849.2071104.1714629644967@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5535680006371574563==" --===============5535680006371574563== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/1/24 23:00, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > I recall IITRAN for the IBM 7044, and am i correct that there was an IITRAN= for the Univac 1108, which was significantly different? I believe that IITRAN was moved from the 7040 to a 360/40 for a few years, then to an Univac 1108. All architectures very different from one another. I believe that the S/360 ran DOS/360 with the IITRAN running in a foreground partition. Ron Hochsprung, if he's still around, may recall more accurately. --Chuck --===============5535680006371574563==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 2 14:39:56 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 07:39:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <58EBD7F7-6738-45CA-B575-A01D116C116E@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3953329673120141288==" --===============3953329673120141288== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/2/24 07:02, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 > My guess is that the languages you use routinely are the ones that work bes= t, and which languages those are depends on where you work and on what projec= ts. For example, I don't *like* C (I call it a "feebly typed language") and = C++ not either, but my job uses these two plus Python. >=20 > Now Python is actually my favorite (though recently I've done a bunch of wo= rk in FORTH). I like to mention that, in 50 years or so, I have only encount= ered two programming languages where I went from "no knowledge" to "wrote and= debugged a substantial program" in only one week -- Pascal (in graduate scho= ol) and Python (one job ago). Reminds me of the brief trend for so-called "Natural Language" programming in the 70s. NLP for short. "Take the 6rh item on the list and print it" sort of stuff. Apparently, it has resurfaced in the AI community. Problem is that people don't think like computers, even AI-equipped ones. --Chuck --===============3953329673120141288==-- From ce.murillosanchez@gmail.com Thu May 2 14:43:08 2024 From: Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 09:43:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8128141842353656645==" --===============8128141842353656645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > BASIC was always a popular language in the Hewlett-Packard world. From > the HP 2000 timesharing BASIC that was popular in educational settings > similar to the original DTSS, To BASIC/3000 on the HP 3000 which was a > first-class language with both interpreter and compiler (producing > very fast code), to the HP 250/260 which used BASIC as their primary > development language, Rocky Mountain BASIC in the technical world, the > Series 80 microcomputers, HP Business Basic again on the 3000 which > was probably largest and most complex language system ever created for > the Classic 16-bit 3000 systems and which was intended to be both a > migration path for 250/260 applications to MPE and to be a new > standard Basic across multiple HP platforms. I first got acquainted with computers in 1978-79 while in 8th grade, precisely on an HP3000 with BASIC. I was hooked. Carlos. --===============8128141842353656645==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Thu May 2 14:59:18 2024 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MS-DOS source code Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 08:58:59 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6143667954288013556==" --===============6143667954288013556== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 2, 2024, 7:27=E2=80=AFAM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 2 May 2024, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > Some may find this interesting. Microsoft has released the source for > MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2, and 4. > > > > https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS > > > > I think the most interesting thing about this is that they published it > under an actual open source license (MIT) and not that nonsense that was > used when they released 1.25 and 2.0 through the CHM years ago. > Yes. I'd thought about trying to reconstruct the source to the Rainbow version(s) of DOS, but the license soured me on the idea. Warner g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > --===============6143667954288013556==-- From julf@julf.com Thu May 2 15:03:48 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 17:03:38 +0200 Message-ID: <7b5cc5e7-5e15-409d-b70f-48bc8bad5017@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2959269543746438229==" --===============2959269543746438229== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 02/05/2024 01:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had > APL, instead of BASIC? I don't know, but if you had asked "What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had SmallTalk or even ALGOL instead of BASIC?" I would have said "much better". I started out with FORTRAN and 6800 assembler, but my first real programming job was in BASIC. I am fortunate in that they thought me Pascal in university, and I then got exposed to a bunch of other real high level languages - if I hadn't, and had continued with BASIC, I would probably have ended up as a pretty crap programmer. Julf --===============2959269543746438229==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu May 2 15:23:50 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 10:23:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1431467353.118695399.1714607035429.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8710239658026135464==" --===============8710239658026135464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/1/24 18:43, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > APL is very much alive - it was invented in the '60s. > Lisp is slightly older and it, as well, is still in active use - and it's o= lder than FORTRAN, which was the inspiration for BASIC. Lisp is VERY VERY much alive, but rarely seen.=C2=A0 The emacs=20 editor on unix-related systems, (and several other editors=20 on Linux hide emacs from you, but it is the editing engine=20 down underneath.)=C2=A0 AI geeks use Lisp for a variety of things. Jon --===============8710239658026135464==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu May 2 15:34:44 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 10:34:36 -0500 Message-ID: <12f6bdb0-efbe-3e58-e829-72ba21ef6d98@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7384063545625368761==" --===============7384063545625368761== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/2/24 05:55, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 00:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had >> APL, instead of BASIC? > To be perfectly honest I think the home computer boom wouldn't have > happened, and it would have crashed and burned in the 1970s, with the > result that microcomputers remained firmly under corporate control. Well, I have my doubts.  I did run ONE program in BASIC on my home Z-80 system, that was a VERY crude simulation of an electric car.  I had an S-100 Z-80 system from about 1976 with paper tape. I then got a floppy drive, and later a Memorex 10 MB Winchester drive.  I did a LOT of programming in assembly language but also did larger programs like cross assemblers in Pascal. Yes, I know a lot of people programmed in BASIC, but I didn't find it very good. Jon --===============7384063545625368761==-- From turing@shaw.ca Thu May 2 15:48:45 2024 From: Norman Jaffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 09:48:40 -0600 Message-ID: <176675537.121621161.1714664920994.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <7b5cc5e7-5e15-409d-b70f-48bc8bad5017@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0837798515836666524==" --===============0837798515836666524== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was lucky enough to have worked initially in Focal and FORTRAN at UW (Seatt= le) and moved on to PL/I, Pascal and APL at SFU (Burnaby, B.C.) while being e= xposed to Algol, BASIC, C, GPSS, Smalltalk, Simula, SNOBOL4, XPL and many oth= er 'esoteric' languages.=20 Of course, various Assemblers were in the 'mix' - 6800/6809, 8080, Z80, IBM 3= 60/370, IBM 1800, M68K... it's helped me adapt to whatever environment that I= wound up working in.=20 From: "Johan Helsingius via cctalk" =20 To: "cctalk" =20 Cc: "Johan Helsingius" =20 Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2024 8:03:38 AM=20 Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC=20 On 02/05/2024 01:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:=20 > What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had=20 > APL, instead of BASIC?=20 I don't know, but if you had asked "What would our world be like if the=20 first home computers were to have had SmallTalk or even ALGOL instead of=20 BASIC?" I would have said "much better".=20 I started out with FORTRAN and 6800 assembler, but my first real=20 programming job was in BASIC. I am fortunate in that they thought=20 me Pascal in university, and I then got exposed to a bunch of other=20 real high level languages - if I hadn't, and had continued with=20 BASIC, I would probably have ended up as a pretty crap programmer.=20 Julf=20 --===============0837798515836666524==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Thu May 2 16:02:05 2024 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 12:01:51 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <07cb01da9c33$90937920$b1ba6b60$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1681690835074948517==" --===============1681690835074948517== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I learned at VCF East this year that I should have brought an UPS to make sure that my vintage equipment had good, clean AC power.  My PDP11 kept on resetting during the show. Doug On 5/1/2024 9:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing > festival before. After years of only being able to watch others attend the > ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here. Super > excited. I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even got me > two tables which is awesome. > > > > Like, how do you prepare for these things? What things that you didn't > think of going into your first show do you wish you had? > > > > I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my > Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the risks of > transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention > itself). Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be in terms > of theme. > > > > Brad > --===============1681690835074948517==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 2 16:24:46 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 09:24:34 -0700 Message-ID: <774568aa-312f-4050-8f2d-aee033caa2a5@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5346302841528250337==" --===============5346302841528250337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll add a postscript with my reaction upon seeing my first Microsoft Visual BASIC program code: "What the hell is this? It's not BASIC!" --Chuck --===============5346302841528250337==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu May 2 16:40:28 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 12:40:11 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7291841152167882215==" --===============7291841152167882215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree on the UPS! Power can be inconsistent at shows On Thu, May 2, 2024, 12:02 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I learned at VCF East this year that I should have brought an UPS to > make sure that my vintage equipment had good, clean AC power. My PDP11 > kept on resetting during the show. > Doug > > On 5/1/2024 9:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > > Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing > > festival before. After years of only being able to watch others attend > the > > ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here. Super > > excited. I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even got > me > > two tables which is awesome. > > > > > > > > Like, how do you prepare for these things? What things that you didn't > > think of going into your first show do you wish you had? > > > > > > > > I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my > > Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the risks of > > transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention > > itself). Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be in > terms > > of theme. > > > > > > > > Brad > > > > --===============7291841152167882215==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 2 16:53:15 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 11:53:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0339081928156500841==" --===============0339081928156500841== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had a similar experience at VCF Midwest where the line voltage was as low as 90 VAC.  My area was without power for about 2 hours during setup. On 5/2/2024 11:01 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I learned at VCF East this year that I should have brought an UPS to > make sure that my vintage equipment had good, clean AC power.  My > PDP11 kept on resetting during the show. > Doug > > On 5/1/2024 9:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: >> Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing >> festival before.  After years of only being able to watch others >> attend the >> ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here.  >> Super >> excited.  I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even >> got me >> two tables which is awesome. >> >> >> Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't >> think of going into your first show do you wish you had? >> >> >> I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my >> Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the >> risks of >> transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention >> itself).  Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be >> in terms >> of theme. >> >> >> Brad >> > --===============0339081928156500841==-- From bear@typewritten.org Thu May 2 18:01:15 2024 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC and other languraes Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 10:45:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1937261899.2071115.1714629807566@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0050668911704404107==" --===============0050668911704404107== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 1, 2024, at 11:03 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I very much miss CMS PIPELINES which was ported to MVS, but afaik never bey= ond IBM mainframes. >=20 CMS PIPELINES was a mainframe implementation of a =E2=80=9Cstandard" UNIX fac= ility (with some small extensions, e.g. multiplexed pipelines). They are abou= t 85% congruent. ok bear. --===============0050668911704404107==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 2 18:30:43 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 13:30:33 -0500 Message-ID: <674c60ee-95ab-4207-8355-0daf7b8b62e2@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <774568aa-312f-4050-8f2d-aee033caa2a5@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4085614908982081419==" --===============4085614908982081419== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Microsoft loves to take languages developed by others and transmogrify them into the "Microsoft Universe". Quick Basic, Visual Java, Visual Basic, Visual C# (barely resembles C) and the worst offender of all Visual C++ .NET. Your post reminded me that Postscript is an actual programming language as well. On 5/2/2024 11:24 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'll add a postscript with my reaction upon seeing my first Microsoft > Visual BASIC program code: > > "What the hell is this? It's not BASIC!" > > --Chuck > --===============4085614908982081419==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 2 18:53:03 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 14:52:55 -0400 Message-ID: <6CD20D68-1D4E-41CB-8FCF-97BD9E8B2C98@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <674c60ee-95ab-4207-8355-0daf7b8b62e2@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7340187326442890115==" --===============7340187326442890115== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 2, 2024, at 2:30 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Microsoft loves to take languages developed by others and transmogrify them= into the "Microsoft Universe". >=20 > Quick Basic, Visual Java, Visual Basic, Visual C# (barely resembles C) and = the worst offender of all Visual C++ .NET. >=20 > Your post reminded me that Postscript is an actual programming language as = well. It sure is. My favorite fractal curve, the "Tree of Pythagoras" has been my = sample graphics exercise for any number of systems with graphics I/O. The Po= stScript version I have is only a few dozen lines long, a simple recursive pr= ogram. A trickier version is my original one, in FORTRAN II (no recursion). paul --===============7340187326442890115==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Thu May 2 19:17:47 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 14:17:32 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <07cb01da9c33$90937920$b1ba6b60$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4836405505351304133==" --===============4836405505351304133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Less interesting answer but being multiples of any cables you're relying on. If presenting, multiple HDMI/output cables (I've seen HDMI cables not work in specific setups and another cable would for unknown reasons). Display cards or tags describing what you have on the table and what is interesting are always a plus. If you have stuff for sale, things to tag that area or equipment with. I've been confused at some shows that are both presenting and selling on how to identify what the seller has for sale. Then I agree with all the other things folks mentioned for additional power/protection and any tools you might want if you need to troubleshoot a system that gets shy after a day or two of people looking at it or touching it. On Wed, May 1, 2024, 9:03 PM Brad H via cctalk wrote: > > Like, how do you prepare for these things? What things that you didn't > think of going into your first show do you wish you had? > > > > I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff > --===============4836405505351304133==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Thu May 2 19:51:38 2024 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 12:50:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6945674063384894775==" --===============6945674063384894775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The first "professional software" I wrote (almost) out of University in 1979 was a package to emulate the mainframe APL\Plus file primitives on a CP/M APL variant. Used to facilitate porting of mainframe APL applications to microcomputers. I'm still an APL adherent since the late 1960s, but it was probably too heavy-weight, with obstacles noted elsewhere (character-set, radical programming paradigm), to be successful in the early days of microcomputing. Although the MCM-70 was an amazing feat of technology. Too bad because the language itself lends itself to learning by anyone with an understanding of high school algebra. Iverson et al started scratching the surface of introducing computing to elementary/high-school students using APL with success in the 1970s. I myself learned it as my first programming language by just reading a book and hacking while in 7th grade. Further info: THE USE OF APL IN TEACHING =E2=80=94 Software Preservation Group INTRODUCING APL TO TEACHERS =E2=80=94 Software Preservation Group APL in Exposition =E2=80=94 Software Preservation Group Lee Courtney On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 3:56=E2=80=AFAM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 00:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had > > APL, instead of BASIC? > > To be perfectly honest I think the home computer boom wouldn't have > happened, and it would have crashed and burned in the 1970s, with the > result that microcomputers remained firmly under corporate control. > > I have been watching the APL world with interest since I discovered it > at university, and I still don't understand a word of it. > > I've been watching Lisp for just 15 years or so and I find it unreadable > too. > > I think there are widely different levels of mental flexibility among > smart humans and one person's "this just requires a small effort but > you get so much in return!" is someone else's eternally impossible, > unclimbable mountain. > > After some 40 years in computers now, I still like BASIC best, with > Fortran and Pascal very distant runners-up and everything else from C > to Python is basically somewhere between Minoan Linear A and Linear B > to me. > > I think I lack the mental flexibility, and I think I'm better than > most of hoi polloi. > > If the early machines had used something cryptic like APL or Forth I > reckon we'd never have had a generation of child programmers. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > --=20 Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============6945674063384894775==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 2 20:00:58 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 16:00:52 -0400 Message-ID: <054B5431-6D90-4D68-964B-9BBD620B62F6@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4784042609424561481==" --===============4784042609424561481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 2, 2024, at 3:50 PM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The first "professional software" I wrote (almost) out of University in > 1979 was a package to emulate the mainframe APL\Plus file primitives on a > CP/M APL variant. Used to facilitate porting of mainframe APL applications > to microcomputers. >=20 > I'm still an APL adherent since the late 1960s, but it was probably too > heavy-weight, with obstacles noted elsewhere (character-set, radical > programming paradigm), to be successful in the early days of > microcomputing. Although the MCM-70 was an amazing feat of technology. >=20 > Too bad because the language itself lends itself to learning by anyone with > an understanding of high school algebra. The one professional application APL I heard of was in a talk by Ron Rivest, = at DEC around 1982 or so. He described a custom chip he had built, a bignum = ALU (512 bits) to do RSA acceleration. The chip included a chunk of microcod= e, and he mentioned that the microcode store layout was done by an APL progra= m about 500 lines long. That raised some eyebrows... Unless I lost it I still have the article somewhere: it's the cover story on = the inaugural issue of "Lambda" which later became "VLSI Design", a technical= journal about chip design. My own exposure to APL started around 1998, when I decoded to try to use it f= or writing cryptanalysis software. That was for a course in cryptanalysis ta= ught by Alex Biryukov at Technion and offered to remote students. The partic= ular exercise was solving an ADVFX cipher (see "The Code Breakers", the unabr= idged hardcover, not the useless paperback). It worked too, and it took less= than 100 lines. paul --===============4784042609424561481==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 2 20:01:25 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 14:01:15 -0600 Message-ID: <5088e9ce-fc51-4e98-8e48-02650f641990@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <00a601da9c51$563f8b60$02bea220$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7327754193493989605==" --===============7327754193493989605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-05-01 11:26 p.m., Ali via cctalk wrote: >> >> Don't forget to bring a towel. >> >> Sellam > > The fact that we all probably got that reference is the amazing part..... > > -Ali > What no white mouse trap! --===============7327754193493989605==-- From gordon+cctalk@drogon.net Thu May 2 20:23:38 2024 From: Gordon Henderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 21:23:31 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3900729896076695721==" --===============3900729896076695721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Let's hear your earliest introduction to BASIC. The first computer I used ran BASIC - HP9830A. I was at school in Edinburgh in '77/'78. I was 15/16 at the time. The "stupid computer" beat me at "NIM" then the teacher showed me the listing - "Oh, that looks easy" followed by "How hard can it be" ... Ah well. Seems a long time ago now. Dial-up + TTY-33 to the local computing center after that then very soon Apple II. I'm still fond of BASIC (or Basic, whatever). Some 15 years back now I decided I'd write my own "ideal" Basic - line numbers optional, named procedures and functions with local variables - sort of in-line with the last "micro" Basic I used on the BBC Micro (c1981) but with full graphics commands, turtle graphics and more. That's all in C (Under Linux) and I even did some real work with it for some geolocation analysis and even sold a license to it to a company who were developing a Basic computer for educational use. (didn't quite make me a "Bill Gates" though!) And just last year I wrote a fairly traditional "Tiny" Basic that lives in under 4KB of ROM on the 6502... Because why not. I'm told Lua is the new Basic or Python is the new Basic, but the best thing for me about Basic on the old micros was being able to turn the computer on and type Basic into it immediately.... And to that end, I decided to re-target my C Basic it to a bare metal framework for the Raspberry Pi I'd been working on - boots to Basic in... well, it's not as quick as an Apple II or BBC Micro, but under 2 seconds. It's a bit faster on a Pi Zero as there's no USB to initialise... Still better than booting Linux (or MS Win, whatever), logging in, launching the "IDE", .... Cheers, -Gordon --===============3900729896076695721==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 2 20:26:09 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 14:25:56 -0600 Message-ID: <12fe0402-d8b5-4d32-ad27-0d282e6a711b@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0894639134237974883==" --===============0894639134237974883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-05-02 4:55 a.m., Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 00:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> >> What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had >> APL, instead of BASIC? >=20 > To be perfectly honest I think the home computer boom wouldn't have > happened, and it would have crashed and burned in the 1970s, with the > result that microcomputers remained firmly under corporate control. >=20 > I have been watching the APL world with interest since I discovered it > at university, and I still don't understand a word of it. >=20 > I've been watching Lisp for just 15 years or so and I find it unreadable to= o. >=20 > I think there are widely different levels of mental flexibility among > smart humans and one person's "this just requires a small effort but > you get so much in return!" is someone else's eternally impossible, > unclimbable mountain. >=20 > After some 40 years in computers now, I still like BASIC best, with > Fortran and Pascal very distant runners-up and everything else from C > to Python is basically somewhere between Minoan Linear A and Linear B > to me. >=20 > I think I lack the mental flexibility, and I think I'm better than > most of hoi polloi. >=20 > If the early machines had used something cryptic like APL or Forth I > reckon we'd never have had a generation of child programmers. >=20 I have very poor memory, IF,REM,LET ect I can remember. Line noise like TELCO err APL I can not make sense at all. USA(IBM) pushed APL , Europe wanted ALGOL. What users got was STUPID ASCII and the useless accent marks. Without real IO lots of languages died, and we got C and Pascal but only for the US. That just left BASIC the standard as it just needed A-Z0-9[]+-=3D><;" BASIC would be still around in ALT UNIVERSE running off the cloud. --===============0894639134237974883==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 2 20:32:11 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 16:32:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4492588900821033838==" --===============4492588900821033838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 2, 2024, at 4:23 PM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > I'm told Lua is the new Basic or Python is the new Basic, but the best thin= g for me about Basic on the old micros was being able to turn the computer on= and type Basic into it immediately.... And to that end, I decided to re-targ= et my C Basic it to a bare metal framework for the Raspberry Pi I'd been work= ing on - boots to Basic in... well, it's not as quick as an Apple II or BBC M= icro, but under 2 seconds. It's a bit faster on a Pi Zero as there's no USB t= o initialise...=20 That's why I've been playing with FORTH on my Raspberry Pico microcontrollers= (Travis Bemann's "Zeptoforth" dialect, to be precise). It's nice and compac= t, and it boots in milliseconds. Multicore, multitasking, lots of library mo= dules... nice. paul --===============4492588900821033838==-- From gavin@learn.bio Thu May 2 21:00:16 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 15:59:58 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0227615513089263489==" --===============0227615513089263489== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's also Geoff Graham's BASIC for the Pi Pico. https://geoffg.net/picomite.html On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 3:32=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > On May 2, 2024, at 4:23 PM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > > > > ... > > I'm told Lua is the new Basic or Python is the new Basic, but the best th= ing for me about Basic on the old micros was being able to turn the computer = on and type Basic into it immediately.... And to that end, I decided to re-ta= rget my C Basic it to a bare metal framework for the Raspberry Pi I'd been wo= rking on - boots to Basic in... well, it's not as quick as an Apple II or BBC= Micro, but under 2 seconds. It's a bit faster on a Pi Zero as there's no USB= to initialise... > > That's why I've been playing with FORTH on my Raspberry Pico microcontrolle= rs (Travis Bemann's "Zeptoforth" dialect, to be precise). It's nice and comp= act, and it boots in milliseconds. Multicore, multitasking, lots of library = modules... nice. > > paul > > --===============0227615513089263489==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 2 21:09:18 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 14:09:06 -0700 Message-ID: <82b84fef-cb67-4a4b-970a-f6acb3beb097@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7782257218455244123==" --===============7782257218455244123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thinking back over the last couple of months, I realize that most of my recent programming has been in Linux Bash scripts. --Chuck --===============7782257218455244123==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 2 22:39:41 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 15:39:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7700439092209222558==" --===============7700439092209222558== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/2/24 13:59, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > There's also Geoff Graham's BASIC for the Pi Pico. > > https://geoffg.net/picomite.html Then there's the 8042 MCU-embedded BASIC, the BASIC stamp, etc. I have a little MicroPy board here that's fun to play with. --Chuck --===============7700439092209222558==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Fri May 3 00:39:57 2024 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 17:39:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <054B5431-6D90-4D68-964B-9BBD620B62F6@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5530015772174723679==" --===============5530015772174723679== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul, Is this the Lambda/VLSI Design magazine you refer to: Lynn Conway's VLSI Archive: Main Links (umich.edu) ? Thanks! Lee On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 1:00=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning = wrote: > > > > On May 2, 2024, at 3:50 PM, Lee Courtney via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > The first "professional software" I wrote (almost) out of University in > > 1979 was a package to emulate the mainframe APL\Plus file primitives on a > > CP/M APL variant. Used to facilitate porting of mainframe APL > applications > > to microcomputers. > > > > I'm still an APL adherent since the late 1960s, but it was probably too > > heavy-weight, with obstacles noted elsewhere (character-set, radical > > programming paradigm), to be successful in the early days of > > microcomputing. Although the MCM-70 was an amazing feat of technology. > > > > Too bad because the language itself lends itself to learning by anyone > with > > an understanding of high school algebra. > > The one professional application APL I heard of was in a talk by Ron > Rivest, at DEC around 1982 or so. He described a custom chip he had built, > a bignum ALU (512 bits) to do RSA acceleration. The chip included a chunk > of microcode, and he mentioned that the microcode store layout was done by > an APL program about 500 lines long. That raised some eyebrows... > > Unless I lost it I still have the article somewhere: it's the cover story > on the inaugural issue of "Lambda" which later became "VLSI Design", a > technical journal about chip design. > > My own exposure to APL started around 1998, when I decoded to try to use > it for writing cryptanalysis software. That was for a course in > cryptanalysis taught by Alex Biryukov at Technion and offered to remote > students. The particular exercise was solving an ADVFX cipher (see "The > Code Breakers", the unabridged hardcover, not the useless paperback). It > worked too, and it took less than 100 lines. > > paul > > > --=20 Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============5530015772174723679==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri May 3 00:46:10 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 20:45:39 -0400 Message-ID: <8C5DA06A-CDF5-4CF2-ACD5-A086F0D7CD0B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4355209566666710939==" --===============4355209566666710939== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, it sure is. I was mistaken about it being the first issue. Instead, th= e RSA article appears in Vol. 1 No. 3 (4Q80). Too bad the article itself isn= 't included in the scanned material. paul > On May 2, 2024, at 8:39 PM, Lee Courtney wrote: >=20 > Paul, >=20 > Is this the Lambda/VLSI Design magazine you refer to: >=20 > Lynn Conway's VLSI Archive: Main Links (umich.edu) >=20 > ? >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Lee >=20 > On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 1:00=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning > wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On May 2, 2024, at 3:50 PM, Lee Courtney via cctalk > wrote: > >=20 > > The first "professional software" I wrote (almost) out of University in > > 1979 was a package to emulate the mainframe APL\Plus file primitives on a > > CP/M APL variant. Used to facilitate porting of mainframe APL applications > > to microcomputers. > >=20 > > I'm still an APL adherent since the late 1960s, but it was probably too > > heavy-weight, with obstacles noted elsewhere (character-set, radical > > programming paradigm), to be successful in the early days of > > microcomputing. Although the MCM-70 was an amazing feat of technology. > >=20 > > Too bad because the language itself lends itself to learning by anyone wi= th > > an understanding of high school algebra. >=20 > The one professional application APL I heard of was in a talk by Ron Rivest= , at DEC around 1982 or so. He described a custom chip he had built, a bignu= m ALU (512 bits) to do RSA acceleration. The chip included a chunk of microc= ode, and he mentioned that the microcode store layout was done by an APL prog= ram about 500 lines long. That raised some eyebrows... >=20 > Unless I lost it I still have the article somewhere: it's the cover story o= n the inaugural issue of "Lambda" which later became "VLSI Design", a technic= al journal about chip design. >=20 > My own exposure to APL started around 1998, when I decoded to try to use it= for writing cryptanalysis software. That was for a course in cryptanalysis = taught by Alex Biryukov at Technion and offered to remote students. The part= icular exercise was solving an ADVFX cipher (see "The Code Breakers", the una= bridged hardcover, not the useless paperback). It worked too, and it took le= ss than 100 lines. >=20 > paul >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============4355209566666710939==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri May 3 00:47:17 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 20:46:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3BF9FF1C-46D3-4E56-93F2-BD6F433C1DED@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <8C5DA06A-CDF5-4CF2-ACD5-A086F0D7CD0B@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0750318959932900167==" --===============0750318959932900167== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 2, 2024, at 8:45 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 > Yes, it sure is. I was mistaken about it being the first issue. Instead, = the RSA article appears in Vol. 1 No. 3 (4Q80). Too bad the article itself i= sn't included in the scanned material. Ah, but it does show up elsewhere: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLS= I/ClassicDesigns/RSA/RSA.L4Q80.pdf >=20 > paul >=20 >> On May 2, 2024, at 8:39 PM, Lee Courtney > wrote: >>=20 >> Paul, >>=20 >> Is this the Lambda/VLSI Design magazine you refer to: >>=20 >> Lynn Conway's VLSI Archive: Main Links (umich.edu) >>=20 >> ? >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Lee >>=20 >> On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 1:00=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning > wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> > On May 2, 2024, at 3:50 PM, Lee Courtney via cctalk > wrote: >> >=20 >> > The first "professional software" I wrote (almost) out of University in >> > 1979 was a package to emulate the mainframe APL\Plus file primitives on a >> > CP/M APL variant. Used to facilitate porting of mainframe APL applicatio= ns >> > to microcomputers. >> >=20 >> > I'm still an APL adherent since the late 1960s, but it was probably too >> > heavy-weight, with obstacles noted elsewhere (character-set, radical >> > programming paradigm), to be successful in the early days of >> > microcomputing. Although the MCM-70 was an amazing feat of technology. >> >=20 >> > Too bad because the language itself lends itself to learning by anyone w= ith >> > an understanding of high school algebra. >>=20 >> The one professional application APL I heard of was in a talk by Ron Rives= t, at DEC around 1982 or so. He described a custom chip he had built, a bign= um ALU (512 bits) to do RSA acceleration. The chip included a chunk of micro= code, and he mentioned that the microcode store layout was done by an APL pro= gram about 500 lines long. That raised some eyebrows... >>=20 >> Unless I lost it I still have the article somewhere: it's the cover story = on the inaugural issue of "Lambda" which later became "VLSI Design", a techni= cal journal about chip design. >>=20 >> My own exposure to APL started around 1998, when I decoded to try to use i= t for writing cryptanalysis software. That was for a course in cryptanalysis= taught by Alex Biryukov at Technion and offered to remote students. The par= ticular exercise was solving an ADVFX cipher (see "The Code Breakers", the un= abridged hardcover, not the useless paperback). It worked too, and it took l= ess than 100 lines. >>=20 >> paul >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Lee Courtney >> +1-650-704-3934 cell >=20 --===============0750318959932900167==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Fri May 3 01:03:19 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IITRAN [was: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 20:03:12 -0500 Message-ID: <514232017.2097737.1714698192903@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd7a086-ef4a-40c7-90d1-e4227e6403f5@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7136237538579787045==" --===============7136237538579787045== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, I was kind of thinking there was a 360 in the middle, but... Now that you mention it, I remember the 360 being added to the basement compu= ter center. I think they moved the 78044 to the back and put the 360 where i= t used to be, or maybe first installed the 360 in the back, then switched the= m. With the 360, a 2501 card reader was installed in the public area, and studen= ts just loaded in their own decks, must have been to a spooler (was the spool= er running in F1? OR f2, and they were executed in F1? I would NOT have kno= wn that detail). The univac was installed in the new building east of the dorms.' Now, were they all called IITRAN? I'm kind of thinking with the last switch,= they had a new name and the language changed a bit. 
--Carey
> On 05/02/2024 9:26 AM CDT Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > On 5/1/24 23:00, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > > I recall IITRAN for the IBM 7044, and am i correct that there was an IITR= AN for the Univac 1108, which was significantly different? >=20 > I believe that IITRAN was moved from the 7040 to a 360/40 for a few > years, then to an Univac 1108. All architectures very different from > one another. I believe that the S/360 ran DOS/360 with the IITRAN > running in a foreground partition. Ron Hochsprung, if he's still > around, may recall more accurately. >=20 > --Chuck --===============7136237538579787045==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Fri May 3 01:15:28 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: pipelines [was:BASIC and other languages] Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 20:15:21 -0500 Message-ID: <1723796920.2097909.1714698921821@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8369854088787014291==" --===============8369854088787014291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can you direct me to documenation for UNIX pipelines that includes even 10% = as much as CURRENT mainframe PIPELINES? Which is at least 10x what mainframe= was when I lost access to it. Multiplexing alone is an order of magnitude increase in the power of pipeline= s, not something which is only less than 15%. 
--Carey
> On 05/02/2024 12:45 PM CDT r.stricklin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > > On May 1, 2024, at 11:03 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > > I very much miss CMS PIPELINES which was ported to MVS, but afaik never b= eyond IBM mainframes. > >=20 >=20 > CMS PIPELINES was a mainframe implementation of a =E2=80=9Cstandard" UNIX f= acility (with some small extensions, e.g. multiplexed pipelines). They are ab= out 85% congruent. >=20 > ok > bear. --===============8369854088787014291==-- From kantexplain@protonmail.com Fri May 3 02:51:18 2024 From: Just Kant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 02:51:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6912209612581495968==" --===============6912209612581495968== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BASICs available at bootup were nice, but really were only useful with 8 bit = micros. IBM ROM BASIC was hobbled until you ran BASICA from disk. And if you = had a floppy it only made sense to buy a cheap compiler (Quick Basic, Turbo B= asic, etc.). Whatever you were missing by not dropping 4-500$ for a full prod= uct probably wasn't worth the expense. ROM BASICs outlived their usefulness very quickly. Compiled Basic was an ent= rance into real world development. It wasn't a tool you could do everything w= ith. But how many programmers sitting at home were creating apps that were ev= en 64k in size. Compiled Basic was the schnitzel. There are also several 32/6= 4 bit versions available for free. Carry on. --===============6912209612581495968==-- From curiousmarc3@gmail.com Fri May 3 03:26:38 2024 From: Curious Marc To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo Model 40 Series - Disturbed head positioning Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 20:26:21 -0700 Message-ID: <2998D668-F28B-492E-AED8-DEFDEB8235B4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3720584231822206173==" --===============3720584231822206173== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes the oscilloscope are your eyes and ears for electrons=E2=80=A6=20 Marc > On May 1, 2024, at 11:44=E2=80=AFPM, Dominique Carlier wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi Marc ! >=20 > It should be so great if it was just the PSU, everything else is hyper over= kill in terms of complexity but on the multimeter all the voltages show the c= orrect values, including +15V and -15V (generated from the +24V and -24V of t= he power supply). > But is it possible that one of these currents, for example the stabalized += 5V is 'parasitized' ? How can it be diagnosed? With an oscilloscope I suppos= e? >=20 > The interesting thing now is the lack of emergency retraction of the heads = if the power is cut during RUN mode. There is an unfuse +24V provided for thi= s purpose but it is present in the power supply. If that problem is common to= the others issues, this leads me to think that there is an issue at the logi= cal level, in this case the breakdown hypotheses are unfortunately infinite (= summing junction on SO board, servo positioner, SR board, sensors, ...). If i= t's not common, it should be a dead capacitor concerning the emergency retrac= tion of the heads, and a dead amplifier transistor on the heat sink board ded= icated to the plus/minus (forward/reverse) servo positioner, who knows ? >=20 > Dominique >=20 >=20 >> On 2/05/2024 01:38, Curious Marc wrote: >> Power supply problem? >> Marc >>=20 >>>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 8:58=E2=80=AFAM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFHello everyone >>>=20 >>> I need your help to identify an issue on my Diablo Model 40 Series. I don= 't know where to look, it's so vast ! >>>=20 >>> Here's the problem: >>> When RUN is activated, the drive begins its spin up and simultaneously de= ploys the heads (normal) but instead of stabilizing them, the Head Positioner= receives a burst of reverse/forward micro signals. The heads "vibrate", this= creates an audible frequency "BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR", and it is infinite, the = heads are never loaded and the drive never reaches READY. >>>=20 >>> At first I thought that perhaps the track zero sensor was defective or so= mething of the same order but when I disengage RUN mode, the drive unloads th= e heads and they should be in a fixed position, here they continue to reverse= /forward but more slowly than in RUN mode. >>> Because the heads continues to mess around even in unload mode, this a pr= iori excludes alignment problems. >>>=20 >>> Here is a video of that issue: >>>=20 >>> https://youtu.be/HzzxLnSdEOg >>>=20 >>> Other information, if I cut the power while the drive is in RUN mode, it = does not do an emergency retraction of the heads, related problem? >>> I was hoping for a power supply problem but all the voltages and even on = the main board cage seem ok (with a multimeter). >>>=20 >>> If one of you had already encountered this problem of lack of head stabil= ization and continuous reverse/forward on this type of drive? >>>=20 >>> Thanks ! >>>=20 >>> Dominique >>>=20 --===============3720584231822206173==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Fri May 3 03:38:43 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 22:38:37 -0500 Message-ID: <1634989754.2099454.1714707517157@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Crj2fsvobODSuib0UputkV8W7bUYZZnivZSCX99b=5FRbBEEuxx?= =?utf-8?q?euUKM4PDi-OTssD-SxkrgHyyAeRnyUqXlwbiPWR05YQuvv3uREumFxXWhX8=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?protonmail=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5895832656524709703==" --===============5895832656524709703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable compiled basics too longer to run and debug because of the compile time. Anything I did was limited to floppy disk, or later even hard disk speed, the= greater speed from compiling could not be noticed. 
--Carey
> On 05/02/2024 9:51 PM CDT Just Kant via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =20 > BASICs available at bootup were nice, but really were only useful with 8 bi= t micros. IBM ROM BASIC was hobbled until you ran BASICA from disk. And if yo= u had a floppy it only made sense to buy a cheap compiler (Quick Basic, Turbo= Basic, etc.). Whatever you were missing by not dropping 4-500$ for a full pr= oduct probably wasn't worth the expense. >=20 > ROM BASICs outlived their usefulness very quickly. Compiled Basic was an e= ntrance into real world development. It wasn't a tool you could do everything= with. But how many programmers sitting at home were creating apps that were = even 64k in size. Compiled Basic was the schnitzel. There are also several 32= /64 bit versions available for free. Carry on. --===============5895832656524709703==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri May 3 08:08:35 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 03:08:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1634989754.2099454.1714707517157@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6512292928472090497==" --===============6512292928472090497== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Great discussions about BASIC. I talked about the IBM 5110 flavor of BASIC last year (such as its FORM keyboard for quickly making structured input forms), and recently "re-learned" that it defaults to running with double-precision. But if you use "RUNS" instead of "RUN" then the same code is run using single-precision (but I haven't verified yet if that translates into an actual runtime speed difference). I think most of the "street BASICs" used single precision (if they supported floats at all). But speaking of Microsoft BASIC, I think Monte Davidoff is still around and deserves a lot of credit for doing the floating point library in the initial Microsoft BASIC (but it's a bit sad that history has lost the names of individual contributors But what I mostly wanted to mention is that on the Commander X16 project, one special thing we now have in its System ROM is a program called BASLOAD. Unfortunately we couldn't come up with a cooler name -- it's not a native compiler, like Blitz. I'm not sure what you'd categorize BASLOAD as, a pre-parser of sorts? By license, we were stuck with the Commodore V2 BASIC (that was derived from Microsoft BASIC, with the story being that Gates wasn't so interested in a 6502 port of Microsoft BASIC, and just sold BASIC source code to Commodore for a flat one time fee rather than a license). One of the main limitations of that V2 BASIC is the two-letter variable names. BASLOAD gives you a feel of being similar to QuickBASIC - in that you can do regular "BASIC things" without using line numbers. You can have long variable names (like THE.SOLUTION) and you can use symbol labels in GOTO/GOSUB (GOTO PROCESS.MORE.DATA, where "." is used since standard PETSCII doesn't have an underscore). All BASLOAD does is "convert" your BASIC-source text file into a tokenized Commodore V2 BASIC input file. Your long variables get "auto assigned" into available two-letter BASIC variables, and it just keeps track of the line number targets of your symbolic labels. Stefan Jakonson did the actual development of BASLOAD, including making it "ROM-able" so that it is always available. Anyhow, BASLOAD has been a "game changer" to me - in that it would have been great to have something like it back in the 80's. Not being constrained by the two-letter variable, and using symbolic label difference, while not dealing with line numbers at all (plus things like similar to a #include to import other BASLOAD source files). Couple more BASIC related comments: (1) There was talk regarding BASIC as an operating system. While not fancy, I actually do think in a way it counts as an operating system. Fundamentally as a parser, BASIC is "just" stream in an input, and some output is produced when you RUN. But to get that point, you need a kind of "operating environment" wrapper around BASIC. In the very early days, that was the line printer. But then CRTs started to become affordable around 1970. Adapting that capability with a text-generator and a console - you have things like the blinking cursor (between each blink, things like time/clock interrupts, joystick polling), and the text-screen itself is your editor (as a gateway to manipulate your program, one screen at a time with no scrollback buffer). And similar to the line-printer days, when you press CR (carriage return) the content on the current line is tokenized and stored in memory (sort of - again on the IBM 5100 it will parse-check upfront and won't let you ENTER/CR a syntactically invalid BASIC line; it shows this arrow on what column the error is which has to be corrected before the line can be committed into memory -- most "street BASIC" seem more forgiving about that, probably just to conserve ROM space and fit in under 8KB). And the BASIC manages access to hardware like printer, serial port, and some file handles. (2) Microsoft BASIC appears on the 1979 NEC PC-8001, which includes disk drive support (similar to the later additions to Commodore BASIC also around 1980). But in the NEC PC-8001 manual about BASIC, it refers to a "FAT" format used on disks. So I suspect Microsoft's early work in adding disk drive support into BASIC did help them in maintaining that format when packaging up QDOS later. On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 10:38 PM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > compiled basics too longer to run and debug because of the compile time. > > Anything I did was limited to floppy disk, or later even hard disk speed, > the greater speed from compiling could not be noticed. > > 
--Carey
> > > On 05/02/2024 9:51 PM CDT Just Kant via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > BASICs available at bootup were nice, but really were only useful with 8 > bit micros. IBM ROM BASIC was hobbled until you ran BASICA from disk. And > if you had a floppy it only made sense to buy a cheap compiler (Quick > Basic, Turbo Basic, etc.). Whatever you were missing by not dropping 4-500$ > for a full product probably wasn't worth the expense. > > > > ROM BASICs outlived their usefulness very quickly. Compiled Basic was > an entrance into real world development. It wasn't a tool you could do > everything with. But how many programmers sitting at home were creating > apps that were even 64k in size. Compiled Basic was the schnitzel. There > are also several 32/64 bit versions available for free. Carry on. > --===============6512292928472090497==-- From bduncan@beachnet.org Fri May 3 08:21:38 2024 From: Bill Duncan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 22:39:47 -0400 Message-ID: <20240503023947.GA330470@linda> In-Reply-To: <674c60ee-95ab-4207-8355-0daf7b8b62e2@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3598566760446978228==" --===============3598566760446978228== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I still have Microsoft's first product somewhere, in my garage I think. 4K and 8K BASIC on Paper tape. Alas, no paper tape reader anymore.. On Thu, May 02, 2024 at 01:30:33PM -0500, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Microsoft loves to take languages developed by others and transmogrify them > into the "Microsoft Universe". > > Quick Basic, Visual Java, Visual Basic, Visual C# (barely resembles C) and > the worst offender of all Visual C++ .NET. > > Your post reminded me that Postscript is an actual programming language as > well. > > > > On 5/2/2024 11:24 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I'll add a postscript with my reaction upon seeing my first Microsoft > > Visual BASIC program code: > > > > "What the hell is this? It's not BASIC!" > > > > --Chuck > > > -- Bill Duncan, | http://billduncan.org/ bduncan(a)beachnet.org | - linux/unix/network/cloud +1 416 697-9315 | - performance engineering, SRE --===============3598566760446978228==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Fri May 3 09:35:12 2024 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 10:34:41 +0100 Message-ID: <326f28f5-75b9-4247-91d8-4002f189a04d@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8801243382917682179==" --===============8801243382917682179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just 7 year old and no longer in service. Anyone with some space in the basement ? https://gsaauctions.gov/auctions/preview/282996?itemName=3DCheyenne+Supercomp= uter&uuid=3DYKVKu9tjzQi6Eina3238 --===============8801243382917682179==-- From gordon+cctalk@drogon.net Fri May 3 09:50:51 2024 From: Gordon Henderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 10:50:43 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6400490733267895767==" --===============6400490733267895767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 3 May 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > There was talk regarding BASIC as an operating system. Basic as an Operating System vs. An Operating system written in Basic? The original Acorn Archimedes (First ARM CPU system) had an OS initially called "Arthur" which was written in BBC Basic and assembler. It supported a graphical user interface - later re-written in assembler and called RISC-OS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_RISC_OS#Arthur -Gordon --===============6400490733267895767==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Fri May 3 13:41:07 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 15:40:57 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Crj2fsvobODSuib0UputkV8W7bUYZZnivZSCX99b=5FRbBEEuxx?= =?utf-8?q?euUKM4PDi-OTssD-SxkrgHyyAeRnyUqXlwbiPWR05YQuvv3uREumFxXWhX8=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?protonmail=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3744941548751445290==" --===============3744941548751445290== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 03, 2024 at 02:51:06AM +0000, Just Kant via cctalk wrote: > BASICs available at bootup were nice, but really were only useful with 8 > bit micros. IBM ROM BASIC was hobbled until you ran BASICA from disk. And > if you had a floppy it only made sense to buy a cheap compiler (Quick > Basic, Turbo Basic, etc.). Whatever you were missing by not dropping > 4-500$ for a full product probably wasn't worth the expense. A bit of perspective: the equivalent of $400-500 (~£200-250) was a couple of weeks salary in the UK at the time. Unless it could be written-off as a business expense, the purchase of that "cheap" compiler just wasn't happening. --===============3744941548751445290==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 3 13:56:31 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 06:56:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2696285360539689857==" --===============2696285360539689857== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, May 2, 2024, 1:33 PM Gordon Henderson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I'm still fond of BASIC (or Basic, whatever). Since it's an acronym it should be written as BASIC (or I guess B.A.S.I.C.). Sellam --===============2696285360539689857==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 3 13:59:18 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 06:59:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Crj2fsvobODSuib0UputkV8W7bUYZZnivZSCX99b=5FRbBEEuxx?= =?utf-8?q?euUKM4PDi-OTssD-SxkrgHyyAeRnyUqXlwbiPWR05YQuvv3uREumFxXWhX8=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?protonmail=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5517819998086215100==" --===============5517819998086215100== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, May 2, 2024, 7:58 PM Just Kant via cctalk wrote: > > ROM BASICs outlived their usefulness very quickly. Certainly a very subjective statement. Sellam --===============5517819998086215100==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 3 14:09:30 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 50th birthday... Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 07:09:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSN6PR07MB508772600F0ED7B7AF2B4C65E51A2=40SN6PR07MB?= =?utf-8?q?5087=2Enamprd07=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1520292268001991309==" --===============1520292268001991309== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 3, 2024, 1:28=E2=80=AFAM Smith, Wayne via cctalk wrote: > I looked up the Jan. 1975 issue of Popular Electronics in the Copyright > Office's Periodicals Digest. It was published on Nov. 19, 1974 if you are > looking for an actual anniversary date. > The January issue was certainly not available in November of 1974. When did it actually get sent out and start showing up in people's mailboxes? Sellam > --===============1520292268001991309==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Fri May 3 14:13:54 2024 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 10:13:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4153461802384310515==" --===============4153461802384310515== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, Where would you fit the Tandy Model 100 in here? Ultimately it supported a disk drive, ran basic and also sported an expansion box that included video support and a floppy. -Ken On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 4:18=E2=80=AFAM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Great discussions about BASIC. I talked about the IBM 5110 flavor of > BASIC last year (such as its FORM keyboard for quickly making structured > input forms), and recently "re-learned" that it defaults to running with > double-precision. But if you use "RUNS" instead of "RUN" then the same > code is run using single-precision (but I haven't verified yet if that > translates into an actual runtime speed difference). I think most of the > "street BASICs" used single precision (if they supported floats at all). > But speaking of Microsoft BASIC, I think Monte Davidoff is still around > and deserves a lot of credit for doing the floating point library in the > initial Microsoft BASIC (but it's a bit sad that history has lost the names > of individual contributors > > But what I mostly wanted to mention is that on the Commander X16 project, > one special thing we now have in its System ROM is a program called > BASLOAD. Unfortunately we couldn't come up with a cooler name -- it's not > a native compiler, like Blitz. I'm not sure what you'd categorize BASLOAD > as, a pre-parser of sorts? By license, we were stuck with the Commodore V2 > BASIC (that was derived from Microsoft BASIC, with the story being that > Gates wasn't so interested in a 6502 port of Microsoft BASIC, and just sold > BASIC source code to Commodore for a flat one time fee rather than a > license). One of the main limitations of that V2 BASIC is the two-letter > variable names. > > BASLOAD gives you a feel of being similar to QuickBASIC - in that you can > do regular "BASIC things" without using line numbers. You can have long > variable names (like THE.SOLUTION) and you can use symbol labels in > GOTO/GOSUB (GOTO PROCESS.MORE.DATA, where "." is used since standard > PETSCII doesn't have an underscore). All BASLOAD does is "convert" your > BASIC-source text file into a tokenized Commodore V2 BASIC input file. > Your long variables get "auto assigned" into available two-letter BASIC > variables, and it just keeps track of the line number targets of your > symbolic labels. Stefan Jakonson did the actual development of BASLOAD, > including making it "ROM-able" so that it is always available. > > Anyhow, BASLOAD has been a "game changer" to me - in that it would have > been great to have something like it back in the 80's. Not being > constrained by the two-letter variable, and using symbolic label > difference, while not dealing with line numbers at all (plus things like > similar to a #include to import other BASLOAD source files). > > > Couple more BASIC related comments: > > (1) > There was talk regarding BASIC as an operating system. While not fancy, I > actually do think in a way it counts as an operating system. Fundamentally > as a parser, BASIC is "just" stream in an input, and some output is > produced when you RUN. But to get that point, you need a kind of > "operating environment" wrapper around BASIC. In the very early days, > that was the line printer. But then CRTs started to become affordable > around 1970. Adapting that capability with a text-generator and a console > - you have things like the blinking cursor (between each blink, things like > time/clock interrupts, joystick polling), and the text-screen itself is > your editor (as a gateway to manipulate your program, one screen at a time > with no scrollback buffer). And similar to the line-printer days, when > you press CR (carriage return) the content on the current line is tokenized > and stored in memory (sort of - again on the IBM 5100 it will parse-check > upfront and won't let you ENTER/CR a syntactically invalid BASIC line; it > shows this arrow on what column the error is which has to be corrected > before the line can be committed into memory -- most "street BASIC" seem > more forgiving about that, probably just to conserve ROM space and fit in > under 8KB). And the BASIC manages access to hardware like printer, serial > port, and some file handles. > > > (2) > Microsoft BASIC appears on the 1979 NEC PC-8001, which includes disk drive > support (similar to the later additions to Commodore BASIC also around > 1980). But in the NEC PC-8001 manual about BASIC, it refers to a "FAT" > format used on disks. So I suspect Microsoft's early work in adding disk > drive support into BASIC did help them in maintaining that format when > packaging up QDOS later. > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 10:38=E2=80=AFPM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > compiled basics too longer to run and debug because of the compile time. > > > > Anything I did was limited to floppy disk, or later even hard disk speed, > > the greater speed from compiling could not be noticed. > > > > 
--Carey
> > > > > On 05/02/2024 9:51 PM CDT Just Kant via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > BASICs available at bootup were nice, but really were only useful with > 8 > > bit micros. IBM ROM BASIC was hobbled until you ran BASICA from disk. And > > if you had a floppy it only made sense to buy a cheap compiler (Quick > > Basic, Turbo Basic, etc.). Whatever you were missing by not dropping > 4-500$ > > for a full product probably wasn't worth the expense. > > > > > > ROM BASICs outlived their usefulness very quickly. Compiled Basic was > > an entrance into real world development. It wasn't a tool you could do > > everything with. But how many programmers sitting at home were creating > > apps that were even 64k in size. Compiled Basic was the schnitzel. There > > are also several 32/64 bit versions available for free. Carry on. > > > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED --===============4153461802384310515==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Fri May 3 14:14:56 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 07:14:47 -0700 Message-ID: <0Lw2rD-1shck03zfp-017pUI@mrelay.perfora.net> In-Reply-To: <326f28f5-75b9-4247-91d8-4002f189a04d@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2956933639208459649==" --===============2956933639208459649== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Just 7 year old and no longer in service.>Anyone with some space in the base= ment ?But will it run Doom? --===============2956933639208459649==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Fri May 3 14:35:55 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 15:35:40 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0Lw2rD-1shck03zfp-017pUI@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7602430225600335498==" --===============7602430225600335498== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fairly sure you could find something to run Doom that uses less than 1.7MW (from https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/04/us-government-auctions= -5-34-petaflop-cheyenne-supercomputer/ ) On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:23=E2=80=AFPM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > >Just 7 year old and no longer in service.>Anyone with some space in the > basement ?But will it run Doom? --===============7602430225600335498==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Fri May 3 15:07:28 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 10:07:22 -0500 Message-ID: <7767fad4-81a8-4b3a-af9c-de612e6494a4@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5058513554288034236==" --===============5058513554288034236== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/3/24 09:35, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > Fairly sure you could find something to run Doom that uses less than 1.7MW I saw that someone posted on Twitter that they repurposed a disposable=20 home pregnancy test stick display and parts to run it. Apparently it wasn't enough (isn't?) to have lines on the stick you need=20 to have it have a fairly capable display.=C2=A0 And it's disposable.=C2=A0 Un= less=20 you're a tinkerer. > > (from > https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/04/us-government-auctio= ns-5-34-petaflop-cheyenne-supercomputer/ > ) > > > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:23=E2=80=AFPM Ali via cctalk wrote: > >>> Just 7 year old and no longer in service.>Anyone with some space in the >> basement ?But will it run Doom? --===============5058513554288034236==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Fri May 3 15:16:06 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 08:15:56 -0700 Message-ID: <0MAg05-1rx5kB07rv-00EWHe@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5948859726463678805==" --===============5948859726463678805== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Fairly sure you could find something to run Doom >that uses less than 1.7MWB= ut what's the point of buying this monstrosity if not to play Doom? It is lik= e SEVEN years old. ;) --===============5948859726463678805==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri May 3 15:31:40 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 10:31:25 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0MAg05-1rx5kB07rv-00EWHe@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0420922780615092164==" --===============0420922780615092164== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's a different world now with GPU and AI performance, so I strongly doubt Cheyenne will ever boot again. Somewhat sad that they're doing such a nice job of de-installing the machine, labeling all the cables etc. 5PF is just not impressive these days. A single Nvidia card will do more than that in FP8 I think which is probably good enough for AI training, and something like 100PF in FP4 for inference. At worst it's a small handful of Nvidia cards to completely replace that monster. It has 8,064 commodity CPUs, "E5-2697v4 (18-core, 2.3 GHz base frequency, Turbo up to 3.6GHz, 145W TDP)" which may still sell new (NOS?) for up to $2K each (though it's probably questionable whether the total future market amounts to anything close to 8K units), and 300TB of standard DDR4 ECC memory. That's probably what people are bidding on. The rest of it is likely getting melted. And it's something like 42 racks of stuff. But tune in for the exciting auction finish at 4PM Pacific. Auction will continue until 10 minutes elapses without a bid I believe. --===============0420922780615092164==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 3 15:42:40 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 08:42:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7767fad4-81a8-4b3a-af9c-de612e6494a4@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3056050039715399585==" --===============3056050039715399585== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/3/24 08:07, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/04/us-government-aucti= ons-5-34-petaflop-cheyenne-supercomputer/ 2.3-GHz Intel Xeon E5-2697v4 processors, I think that's a close relative to what I'm running on the X99 desktop... --Chuck --===============3056050039715399585==-- From jrr@flippers.com Fri May 3 16:56:30 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 360 Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 09:56:24 -0700 Message-ID: <38ce18b8-bb54-4f81-8c09-42ccc5d6e142@flippers.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3811037950572286414==" --===============3811037950572286414== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024/04/09 7:53 p.m., Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I had not realized the IBM 360 was 60 yrs. old this month. I worked on such > a computer in the late 60s in Toronto. What one could do with 8 Kbytes of > ram was remarkable! > > Happy computing > > Murray 🙂 One of my early summer jobs as a teenager (19?) was at IBM in Toronto - stripping old noise reduction foam from card punch machines so they could get sandblasted and repainted...also in the very late 60s. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============3811037950572286414==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri May 3 17:40:09 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 13:39:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5780117167536550557==" --===============5780117167536550557== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/3/2024 10:13 AM, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Steve, > > Where would you fit the Tandy Model 100 in here? Ultimately it supported a > disk drive, > ran basic and also sported an expansion box that included video support and > a floppy. > Ultimately, so did the TRS-80. At least Model I, III and 4. and ethernet, too. Come to think of it, so does the Color Computer. Not sure where we are going with this. :-) bill --===============5780117167536550557==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri May 3 17:56:46 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 12:56:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3728762203983245699==" --===============3728762203983245699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > ROM BASICs outlived their usefulness very quickly. > Certainly a very subjective statement. I was thinking the other day, that I wish the startup BIOS of modern systems had BASIC - such as in a modern i7 based laptop. At the very least, with all the trig functions, it's as useful as any graphing calculator, or time features make it useful as a clock or stopwatch. In the variants that had PEEK/POKE, then BASIC essentially becomes as useful as an assembler (since you can place the opcodes into DATA statements and POKE and SYS them anywhere into memory). It took me awhile to realize why original variants of BASIC didn't have PEEK/POKE: they were probably timeshare systems, and so arbitrary access to write to system memory would be taboo in those environments. But in a single-user micros, that address space is all yours. Even if your main storage components are kaput, boot up BASIC still allows the system to be useful. Most variants will have keywords or features to make use of serial IO, so you could pipe in a larger program through that (or do a simple terminal program). For sure BASIC has its limitations, but I appreciate how it can function with extremely limited resources (and as a somewhat intuitive interface to programmatically access other system calls). -Steve On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 8:59=E2=80=AFAM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 2, 2024, 7:58=E2=80=AFPM Just Kant via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > ROM BASICs outlived their usefulness very quickly. > > > Certainly a very subjective statement. > > Sellam > --===============3728762203983245699==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 3 18:05:43 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 11:05:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3103856364276744090==" --===============3103856364276744090== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 3 May 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Microsoft BASIC appears on the 1979 NEC PC-8001, which includes disk drive > support (similar to the later additions to Commodore BASIC also around > 1980). But in the NEC PC-8001 manual about BASIC, it refers to a "FAT" > format used on disks. So I suspect Microsoft's early work in adding disk > drive support into BASIC did help them in maintaining that format when > packaging up QDOS later. Marc McDonald, Microsoft's first SALARIED employee, designed and implemented 8-bit FAT for the NCR 8200 and Micorsoft Standalone Disk BASIC-80 in 1977. Numerous "authoritative" sources, including Microsoft's "MS-DOS Encyclopedia" (ISBN 1-55615-049-0), as well as Manes' "Gates : How Microsoft's Mogul Reinvented an Industry and Made Himself the Richest Man in America" (ISBN 0-385-42075-7) explicitly state that it was the idea/inspiration for Tim Paterson's (author of QDOS, MS-DOS, ...) use of FAT, while sharing a booth with Microsoft at NCC (trade show) Chicago 1977. "Remembering his conversation at NCC with Marc McDonald about File Allocation Tables in his unfinished, large, and never-released 8-bit MIDAS operating system, Paterson decided that the FAT scheme was a better way to handle disk information than the way CP/M did it." The MS-DOS Encyclopedia says that it was an implementation on NCR. I've never seen the NCR implementation, but the NEC PC8001[A] and PC8801 were quite common. 20 years ago, Sellam and I helped Don Maslin decipher such a disk from an NEC9801 8" disk. And Lee brought me an Okidata standalone BASIC disk from Russia. The Coco uses the same basic disk directory structure, with a few minor differences (including calling it a "GAT" ("Granule Allocation Table") instead of a FAT. The external 5.25" disk drive for the Radio Shack Model 100 also uses the same directory structure. In the various instances of the Standalone BASIC, there are variations in the details of the size and exact form of the directory entries and the size and number of FAT entries. They put the directory, both FAT and file name based entries, on a track near the seek center of the disk. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3103856364276744090==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 3 18:21:11 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 11:21:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4936679792272526021==" --===============4936679792272526021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 3 May 2024, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Steve, > Where would you fit the Tandy Model 100 in here? Ultimately it supported > a disk drive, ran basic and also sported an expansion box that included > video support and a floppy. > -Ken The Model 100 BASIC (puportedly the last product that billg had active coding participation in) was, indeed, closely tied to the Microsoft Standalone BASIC. The external 3.5" "Tandy Portable Disk Drive" was a unique system, that used ordinary 2DD 3.5" floppies, but had a bizarre format, unlike anything else. It is even WAY more different than the 600RPM full-height Sony drives. Although it would be possible, with a system supporting FM/single-density to write code to read those disks, with their half-track FM sectors, you would be far better off to connect that drive to a serial port and use its internal circuitry (there have existed short programs to talk to it). But, the video and floppy external expansion box for the Model 100 uses Microsoft Standalone BASIC MFM format and directory structure on 5.25" floppies. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4936679792272526021==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Fri May 3 18:30:32 2024 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 18:30:25 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6276664700588587283==" --===============6276664700588587283== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Someone seems to want it. Bidding is at $250,000 and counting. I guess someon= e didn=E2=80=99t get the memo about getting just a few nvidia cards! 73 Eugene W2HX My Youtube Channel:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos =20 -----Original Message----- From: Gavin Scott via cctalk =20 Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:31 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Gavin Scott Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne It's a different world now with GPU and AI performance, so I strongly doubt C= heyenne will ever boot again. Somewhat sad that they're doing such a nice job= of de-installing the machine, labeling all the cables etc. 5PF is just not i= mpressive these days. A single Nvidia card will do more than that in FP8 I th= ink which is probably good enough for AI training, and something like 100PF i= n FP4 for inference. At worst it's a small handful of Nvidia cards to complet= ely replace that monster. It has 8,064 commodity CPUs, "E5-2697v4 (18-core, 2.3 GHz base frequency, Tu= rbo up to 3.6GHz, 145W TDP)" which may still sell new (NOS?) for up to $2K each (though it's probably questionable whether the tota= l future market amounts to anything close to 8K units), and 300TB of standard= DDR4 ECC memory. That's probably what people are bidding on. The rest of it is likely getting melted. And it's something like 42 racks of = stuff. But tune in for the exciting auction finish at 4PM Pacific. Auction will cont= inue until 10 minutes elapses without a bid I believe. --===============6276664700588587283==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 3 19:03:15 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 12:03:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5488204862610891706==" --===============5488204862610891706== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/3/24 11:05, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > "Remembering his conversation at NCC with Marc McDonald about File Allocati= on Tables in his unfinished, large, and never-released 8-bit MIDAS operating = system, Paterson decided that the FAT scheme was a better way to handle disk = information than the way CP/M did it."=20 Link-list file allocation was hardly new back then. CDC had been doing that since the mid-1960s (cf. SCOPE RBR, RBT, FNT FST, etc.). I suspect other mainframe operating systems using that scheme may even pre-date that. One thing that I liked about the CDC approach is that you could use certain pre-defined file names (INPUT OUTPUT, PUNCH) and they would be disposed of appropriately at end-of job. Any other "permanent" files had to be explicitly attached to the job, giving permissions, passwords, cycles, etc. Any temporary files were created just by reference and were deleted at the end-of-job unless explicitly saved as "permanent" files. None of this IBM "DD" stuff. --Chuck --===============5488204862610891706==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 3 19:07:47 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 12:07:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5207372940939129702==" --===============5207372940939129702== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, Microsoft certainly did not invent linked list allocation. But, the Microsoft implementation of the existing idea happened to be what=20 inspired Tim Paterson to do it. > On 5/3/24 11:05, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> "Remembering his conversation at NCC with Marc McDonald about File Allocat= ion Tables in his unfinished, large, and never-released 8-bit MIDAS operating= system, Paterson decided that the FAT scheme was a better way to handle disk= information than the way CP/M did it." > On Fri, 3 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Link-list file allocation was hardly new back then. CDC had been doing > that since the mid-1960s (cf. SCOPE RBR, RBT, FNT FST, etc.). I suspect > other mainframe operating systems using that scheme may even pre-date that. > > One thing that I liked about the CDC approach is that you could use > certain pre-defined file names (INPUT OUTPUT, PUNCH) and they would be > disposed of appropriately at end-of job. Any other "permanent" files > had to be explicitly attached to the job, giving permissions, passwords, > cycles, etc. > > Any temporary files were created just by reference and were deleted at > the end-of-job unless explicitly saved as "permanent" files. > > None of this IBM "DD" stuff. > > --Chuck > > --===============5207372940939129702==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri May 3 19:27:56 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 14:27:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB5269E6C74566E679C6092A3DB51F2=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2722256102543451250==" --===============2722256102543451250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 1:30=E2=80=AFPM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Someone seems to want it. Bidding is at $250,000 and counting. I guess some= one didn=E2=80=99t get the memo about getting just a few nvidia cards! If you go to Amazon today and buy just the CPUs and RAM, that will cost you around 21 million dollars. So I imagine those used parts are still worth substantially more than the current high bid. The close of the auction should be interesting. Still pretty sure nobody intends to re-install and run any part of the whole system, but who knows. Maybe there are other SGI systems still out there. --===============2722256102543451250==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri May 3 19:35:38 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 14:35:24 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9159073958331148277==" --===============9159073958331148277== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 9:14=E2=80=AFAM KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Where would you fit the Tandy Model 100 in here? The Model 100 had a great keyboard, a text editor, and a built-in modem, and was apparently very popular among journalists who used it to write and submit stories from the field. So maybe it saw less use of the built-in BASIC than other machines of the day. --===============9159073958331148277==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 3 19:39:40 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 12:39:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB5737E83A02DFB78B6AECB91FED1F2=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3527947515274730025==" --===============3527947515274730025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Where would you fit the Tandy Model 100 in here? Ultimately it >> supported a disk drive, ran basic and also sported an expansion box >> that included video support and a floppy. On Fri, 3 May 2024, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Ultimately, so did the TRS-80. At least Model I, III and 4. > and ethernet, too. Come to think of it, so does the Color > Computer. Not sure where we are going with this. :-) The "Coco" ("Color Computer") was similar to Microsoft Standalone BASIC, particularly in its disk format. The TRS80 models 1, 3, and 4 had file commands in their BASICs. They ran under TRS-DOS. The Saga Of TRSDOS: (long (TLDR?)) TRSDOS was created by Randy Cook as a work for hire. Although it was marketed as TRSDOS 2.0, Randy Cook never finished it, and documentation was inadequately sparse. When Radio Shack came out with their "expansion interface" and disk drives, they gave out TRSDOS 2.0, which barely worked. Randy Cook hurriedly came out with 2.1 , and then left Radio Shack. Radio Shack worked on 2.2 Clifford Ide, under pseudonym "Sam Jones" created an enormous collection of patches to TRSDOS, and called it APRDOS. Apparat marketed it, and changed the name to NEWDOS https://computeradsfromthepast.substack.com/p/apparat-newdos80 But, it was a patched version of TRSDOS. Both Randy Cook and Radio Shack were not amused. Apparat initially said that everybody who used it also had to buy TRSDOS. That didn't hold up well. So, they said that it was changed so much that there was no trace of TRSDOS in it. That didn't hold up well. Randy Cook's lawyer (who was also a programmer, and marketed a serial communications program) gathered witnesses, and typed BOOT.SYS/RV36 , running BOOT.SYS as if it were an executable, using one of the master passwords. The screen cleared, and displayed a full screen copyright message including "Copyright Randy Cook". Apparat settled and agreed to rewrite from scratch to create a non-infringing version (called "NEWDOS80"). That was actually very advantageous, as it made it possible to create a substantially improved product. Meanwhile, Radio Shack was frantically patching TRSDOS 2.2, and came out with TRSDOS 2.3 They changed the hidden copyright message from "Copyright Randy Cook" to "Copyright Tandy Corp" In addition to NEWDOS80, there were several other independents, including DOSPLUS. Most of which added support for double sided drives, and 80 tracks, and numerous other features not present in TRSDOS. In fact, when Micropolis started selling disk drives to TRS80 users, they included their own completely unrelated OS! Meanwhile, Randy Cook, no longer affiliated with Radio Shack, started his own company (ACS), and worked on further expansion of TRSDOS. He worked on adding in incredible features unheard of in microcomputer operating systems. He called it TRS80-DOS-3.0, but that wouldn't hold up for trademark reasons, so he renamed it VTOS 3.0 http://www.trs-80.org/vtos/ Although it was marketed, Randy Cook never finished it, and documentation was inadequately sparse (mostly just a list of features) Scott Adams, (of Adventure Internationsl, NOT Scott Adams of "Dilbert") cut a deal with Randy Cook to expand it and finish it. That was VTOS 4.0 Although it was marketed, Randy Cook never finished it, and documentation was inadequately sparse (mostly just a list of features) Lobo drives was in the lucrative market of marketing disk drives. They could buy drive, including the Shugart SA400 used by Radio Shack and re-sell tham at a substantial profit, and still be WAY cheaper than Radio Shack's prices for the same drive mechanism (~$250 Vs $500, although Radio Shacks case and power supply had a card extender that made them more convenient to install). Lobo decided to develop and market an expansion interface compatible with TRS80 model 1, with double density, and 8 inch drive support! But, there was a glitch. Model 1 TRSDOS, using a Western Digital 1771 chip used some strange address marks, including different ones for directory sectors than for data sectors. It is rumored that that was unintentional, and due to misreading, or misprinting of the 1771 data sheets. Lobo's expansion interface used a WD 1791 FDC, which could do MFM (double density). BUT, it COULD NOT write some of the address marks used by model-1 TRSDOS! Lobo set up another company, ("LSI" "Logical Systems, Inc"), to create a new operating system for it. They purchased rights to VTOS 4.0, and hired all of the best TRS80 assembly language programmers that they could find, such as Roy Soltoff, Bill Schroeder, and Tim Mann. Without Randy Cook. Their all-star team actually FINISHED it! And wrote a large binder of documentation. LSI called their new operating system LDOS 5.0 https://vtda.org/docs/computing/LSI/LSI_LDOS_51_Model_I_III.pdf Meanwhile, Radio Shack was coming out with their model 3, which had double density. Their "TRSDOS [for model3] Version 1.3" had the same problem with address marks! Radio Shack bought a license for LDOS 5.1, and released it as TRSDOS 6.0 Although Randy Cook grumbled, for the first time, he was getting ROYALTIES for TRSDOS, rather than just the paltry payment that he had originally gotten for the work for hire of TRSDOS 2.0 . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3527947515274730025==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri May 3 19:45:32 2024 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 15:45:22 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9088412274214575310==" --===============9088412274214575310== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hardly. The Model 100 basic had a ton of features including modem=20 support, date/time, and so forth. Lots of programs and utilities were=20 written in the BASIC, and games such as Heartbreaker worked perfectly. There was also a really amazing compiler that could compile basic=20 programs to make them smaller/even faster. I've got it on one of my=20 Model 100 floppy disks (which still works, note the belt will turn to=20 gunk but it's an easy thing to replace.) C On 5/3/2024 3:35 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 9:14=E2=80=AFAM KenUnix via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Where would you fit the Tandy Model 100 in here? >=20 > The Model 100 had a great keyboard, a text editor, and a built-in > modem, and was apparently very popular among journalists who used it > to write and submit stories from the field. >=20 > So maybe it saw less use of the built-in BASIC than other machines of the d= ay. --===============9088412274214575310==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri May 3 20:41:50 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 16:41:44 -0400 Message-ID: <5749D8C9-96B8-4570-A7DF-E2B12BD51682@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2041267692835946455==" --===============2041267692835946455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 3, 2024, at 3:27 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 1:30=E2=80=AFPM W2HX via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Someone seems to want it. Bidding is at $250,000 and counting. I guess som= eone didn=E2=80=99t get the memo about getting just a few nvidia cards! >=20 > If you go to Amazon today and buy just the CPUs and RAM, that will > cost you around 21 million dollars. So I imagine those used parts are > still worth substantially more than the current high bid. The close of > the auction should be interesting. Or maybe it's just metals recycling. If there's more than 120 ounces of gold= in all those racks, that's $250k right there.=20 paul --===============2041267692835946455==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 3 20:50:01 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 13:49:55 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1229096837752987408==" --===============1229096837752987408== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Where would you fit the Tandy Model 100 in here? On Fri, 3 May 2024, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > The Model 100 had a great keyboard, a text editor, and a built-in > modem, and was apparently very popular among journalists who used it > to write and submit stories from the field. > So maybe it saw less use of the built-in BASIC than other machines of the d= ay. Many people used the BASIC and loved it. But, there were other built-in "apps", and it was possible to use it=20 without using the BASIC. So, some users used the BASIC, and some did not; those two groups=20 apparently didn't associate much with each other :-) All of the Kyocera based machines (Model 100, NEC8201, and Olivetti M10)=20 had text editor, and telcom. http://oldcomputers.net/kc.html The Model 100 and the Olivetti M10 also had Address and scheduler The model 100 had an optional Multiplan spreadsheet ROM, or you could=20 write yor own ROMS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1229096837752987408==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri May 3 21:31:09 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 22:30:51 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3424977399857729422==" --===============3424977399857729422== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 20:51, Lee Courtney wrote: > Too bad because the language itself lends itself to learning by anyone with= an understanding of high school algebra. You remind me -- and _not_ in a good way -- of the first day of my undergrad 1st year statistics course at university. I did biology and we had a mandatory stats course. The lecturer came on stage and said (roughly, this was ~40 years ago) "Now I know many of you don't want to be here, or are nervous or apprehensive. I just want to reassure you. Don't be. This course is easy stuff, and it will be basically revision for anyone with A-level mathematics. You'll be fine." I failed _O_ level mathematics, and to get onto a science degree course, I had to do another 6 months of remedial maths just to get me through the exam. To be told "easy if you did the A level" would have made me angrily walk out in disgust if it wasn't a mandatory course. As it was, I worked out that the only test I needed was a Chi-squared test. I had no idea how to do it and the explanation was, well, all Greek to me. But my friend did get it, and he helped break it down into very small simple steps for me, while I wrote a Sinclair BASIC program to not merely do a chi-squared test _but to print out all the intermediate working as if I had done it by hand_ so I could copy it down longhand and fake being able to do it in my coursework. That worked. It took me a weekend and was no direct use because at the end of about 32-33 hours of work, I could do a chi-squared test by hand. So, indirectly, it achieved its purpose. But the point is: not everyone can do "high school algebra." I do not know what age "high school" means to you but very basic secondary school algebra was _extremely_ hard for me and took years of real work to master. And yet, I have a degree and at the time I got it I scored about 150 on the Mensa IQ test. I am not daft. In real life, for ordinary people, algebra is a byword for "really hard to understand". As Stephen Hawking wrote in _A Brief History of Time_ =C2=AB Someone told me that each equation I included in the book would halve the sales. I therefore resolved not to have any equations at all. In the end, however, I did put in one equation, Einstein's famous equation, E =3D mc squared. I hope that this will not scare off half of my potential readers. =C2=BB I think it did not help. (I found the book very dull, myself. I already knew what he was trying to explain.) "It's as easy as algebra" is reinforcing my point about this stuff _not_ being easy, natural, obvious, helpful, convenient, clear, meaningful or useful for most people. I wrote an article about 3 new BASIC releases for its 60th anniversary: https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/03/basic_60th_birthday/ Do go read the first comment. It shows how BASIC was immediately apprehensible and memorable in a way that APL never would be. Translation for American readers: "O" level -- school exams at about age 16; you normally do about 8 subjects. I did 12. "A" level -- school exams at ~18, necessary to get into university. You normally do 3. I did 5. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3424977399857729422==-- From kantexplain@protonmail.com Fri May 3 21:32:55 2024 From: Just Kant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 21:32:46 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6536240561787469416==" --===============6536240561787469416== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quick Basic and I seem to recall all or most of M$ Quick compilers were relea= sed at 99$ US. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. As I think on it maybe QB i i= tially was 150$. Those were the cheap compilers I was referring to. By 1987/88 the cost was le= ss then 1/2 a week's take home earnings no matter what you did. I found QB 3 = at a computer show in 1990 and it wasn't much at all, maybe 25$. Sent with Proton Mail secure email. On Friday, May 3rd, 2024 at 9:40 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, May 03, 2024 at 02:51:06AM +0000, Just Kant via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > BASICs available at bootup were nice, but really were only useful with 8 > > bit micros. IBM ROM BASIC was hobbled until you ran BASICA from disk. And > > if you had a floppy it only made sense to buy a cheap compiler (Quick > > Basic, Turbo Basic, etc.). Whatever you were missing by not dropping > > 4-500$ for a full product probably wasn't worth the expense. >=20 >=20 > A bit of perspective: the equivalent of $400-500 (~=C2=A3200-250) was a cou= ple of > weeks salary in the UK at the time. Unless it could be written-off as a > business expense, the purchase of that "cheap" compiler just wasn't > happening. --===============6536240561787469416==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri May 3 21:44:00 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 22:43:44 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8219029477871249840==" --===============8219029477871249840== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 3 May 2024 at 10:58, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > > The original Acorn Archimedes (First ARM CPU system) had an OS initially > called "Arthur" which was written in BBC Basic and assembler. It supported > a graphical user interface - later re-written in assembler and called > RISC-OS. How odd. This is the second time _this evening_ that this false information has come up. No, it was not written in BASIC. Arthur *the OS* was hand-coded in Arm assembly language, including the BBC BASIC V interpreter. The GUI, in Arthur called DESKTOP, was written in BASIC. Just the desktop, nothing else. Later called the WIMP, and still around today and open source. I wrote about it: version 5.30 just came out, runs on bare metal on 7 different Arm boards, and on the Raspberry Pi this version supports Wifi for the first time. https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/02/rool_530_is_here/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8219029477871249840==-- From spc@conman.org Fri May 3 21:51:28 2024 From: Sean Conner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 17:31:59 -0400 Message-ID: <20240503213159.GJ21073@brevard.conman.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0778965493739650889==" --===============0778965493739650889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was thus said that the Great Steve Lewis via cctalk once stated: > Great discussions about BASIC. I talked about the IBM 5110 flavor of > BASIC last year (such as its FORM keyboard for quickly making structured > input forms), and recently "re-learned" that it defaults to running with > double-precision. But if you use "RUNS" instead of "RUN" then the same > code is run using single-precision (but I haven't verified yet if that > translates into an actual runtime speed difference). I think most of the > "street BASICs" used single precision (if they supported floats at all). > But speaking of Microsoft BASIC, I think Monte Davidoff is still around > and deserves a lot of credit for doing the floating point library in the > initial Microsoft BASIC (but it's a bit sad that history has lost the names > of individual contributors I think most of the "street BASICs" were written before IEEE-754 (floating point standard) was ratified (1985 if I recall). Microsoft's floating point [1] was five bytes long---four bytes for the mantissa, and one byte for the exponent, biased by 129. I did some tests a month ago whereby I tested the speed of the Microsoft floating point math on the 6809 (using Color Computer BASIC) vs. the Motorola 6839 (floating point ROM implementing IEEE-754), and the Microsoft version was faster [2]. -spc [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Binary_Format [2] https://boston.conman.org/2024/03/01.1 --===============0778965493739650889==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri May 3 22:14:51 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 23:14:34 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3663554736346065445==" --===============3663554736346065445== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 3 May 2024 at 16:31, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > It has 8,064 commodity CPUs, "E5-2697v4 (18-core, 2.3 GHz base > frequency, Turbo up to 3.6GHz, 145W TDP)" which may still sell new > (NOS?) for up to $2K each Bad news... https://www.ebay.com/itm/235507916254 $47.99 each. Plus shipping, I'm sure. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3663554736346065445==-- From cclist@sytse.net Fri May 3 22:27:59 2024 From: Sytse van Slooten To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 00:22:50 +0200 Message-ID: <67C45D54-989B-4D7B-B839-2BC532A80F45@sytse.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0830169971230834975==" --===============0830169971230834975== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And since nobody else seems to, allow me to recall: - MINC BASIC, with all its extensions for I/O and real time events. - MUBAS, the multi-user basic for RT-11. And playing around with BASIC is just so much easier and more fun than anythi= ng else you can do with old hardware or emulations thereof. Run a C program? = Sure, marvel in how much slower it is than on your desktop, phone, or the MCU= in your microwave. None of those will have BASIC though, and certainly not t= he MINC extensions with the blinkenlights. And isn't that what all the joy is= about? Cheers, Sytse > On 2 May 2024, at 00:03, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Nostalgia keeps pressing ahead: It was 60 yrs. ago that BASIC came into > existence. I remember very well writing in Apple Basic and GW Basic later > on. As a non-compiled OS, an interpreted OS, it was just the right tool for > a microcomputer with limited memory. I recall fondly taking code from > popular magazines and getting them to run. It was thrilling indeed! >=20 > Happy computing, >=20 > Murray =F0=9F=99=82 --===============0830169971230834975==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri May 3 23:22:15 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 18:22:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0027833829774707705==" --===============0027833829774707705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:14 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Bad news... But does he have 8,000 of them haha. Auction is at $435K now (past the end time) with multiple active bidders extending it. --===============0027833829774707705==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Fri May 3 23:47:09 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] CP/M Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 19:46:54 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0161243725266567466==" --===============0161243725266567466== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I came across an article that said CP/M came out in April 1974. I remember using this OS in the microcomputer world in the late 70’s; early 80’s. It came from PL/M, (Programming Language for Microcomputers) later renamed CP/M(Control Program for Microcomputers). I’m not sure what its legacy is though as far as I can recall it was wrapped up in litigation for quite some time. It was used in the 8-bit world but not sure what it's role was in the early PC world! Happy computing, Murray 🙂 --===============0161243725266567466==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri May 3 23:57:40 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 18:57:24 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7094049126384344414==" --===============7094049126384344414== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sold at $480,085.00. On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 6:22 PM Gavin Scott wrote: > > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:14 PM Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > > Bad news... > > But does he have 8,000 of them haha. > > Auction is at $435K now (past the end time) with multiple active > bidders extending it. --===============7094049126384344414==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Sat May 4 00:05:06 2024 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:46 -0700 Message-ID: <311492C1-209A-4138-8AD4-AF19E082DFCF@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7121492566028500559==" --===============7121492566028500559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not bad for scrap value? ;) Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 3, 2024, at 4:57 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFSold at $480,085.00. >=20 >> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 6:22=E2=80=AFPM Gavin Scott wro= te: >>=20 >> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:14=E2=80=AFPM Liam Proven via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >>> Bad news... >>=20 >> But does he have 8,000 of them haha. >>=20 >> Auction is at $435K now (past the end time) with multiple active >> bidders extending it. >=20 --===============7121492566028500559==-- From turing@shaw.ca Sat May 4 00:11:50 2024 From: Norman Jaffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CP/M Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 18:11:45 -0600 Message-ID: <530523812.129044766.1714781505451.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0759949086435203309==" --===============0759949086435203309== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not quite.=20 CP/M is not a rename of PL/M.=20 PL/M is a derivative of the programming language PL/I and was used in the dev= elopment of CP/M - it is not an operating system.=20 CP/M-86 was a later development of CP/M that was designed to run on 16-bit In= tel processors.=20 CP/M-68K was another branch of CP/M for use with Motorola 68K processors.=20 From: "Murray McCullough via cctalk" =20 To: "cctalk" =20 Cc: "Murray McCullough" =20 Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 4:46:54 PM=20 Subject: [cctalk] CP/M=20 I came across an article that said CP/M came out in April 1974. I remember=20 using this OS in the microcomputer world in the late 70=E2=80=99s; early 80= =E2=80=99s. It=20 came from PL/M, (Programming Language for Microcomputers) later renamed=20 CP/M(Control Program for Microcomputers). I=E2=80=99m not sure what its legac= y is=20 though as far as I can recall it was wrapped up in litigation for quite=20 some time. It was used in the 8-bit world but not sure what it's role was=20 in the early PC world!=20 Happy computing,=20 Murray =F0=9F=99=82=20 --===============0759949086435203309==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sat May 4 00:39:07 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CP/M Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 19:38:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <530523812.129044766.1714781505451.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4282700971824740802==" --===============4282700971824740802== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CP/M (Originally Control Program/Monitor later Control Program for=20 Microcomputers) we developed by Gary Killdall in at Digital Research,=20 Inc.=C2=A0 1974. CP/M-86 was released in 1981. CP/M-68K was released in 1982. On 5/3/2024 7:11 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > Not quite. > CP/M is not a rename of PL/M. > PL/M is a derivative of the programming language PL/I and was used in the d= evelopment of CP/M - it is not an operating system. > CP/M-86 was a later development of CP/M that was designed to run on 16-bit = Intel processors. > CP/M-68K was another branch of CP/M for use with Motorola 68K processors. > > From: "Murray McCullough via cctalk" > To: "cctalk" > Cc: "Murray McCullough" > Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 4:46:54 PM > Subject: [cctalk] CP/M > > I came across an article that said CP/M came out in April 1974. I remember > using this OS in the microcomputer world in the late 70=E2=80=99s; early 80= =E2=80=99s. It > came from PL/M, (Programming Language for Microcomputers) later renamed > CP/M(Control Program for Microcomputers). I=E2=80=99m not sure what its leg= acy is > though as far as I can recall it was wrapped up in litigation for quite > some time. It was used in the 8-bit world but not sure what it's role was > in the early PC world! > > Happy computing, > > Murray =F0=9F=99=82 --===============4282700971824740802==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat May 4 00:49:05 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 20:48:56 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240503213159.GJ21073@brevard.conman.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5899799060662426248==" --===============5899799060662426248== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 3, 2024, at 5:31 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: >=20 > It was thus said that the Great Steve Lewis via cctalk once stated: >> Great discussions about BASIC. I talked about the IBM 5110 flavor of >> BASIC last year (such as its FORM keyboard for quickly making structured >> input forms), and recently "re-learned" that it defaults to running with >> double-precision. But if you use "RUNS" instead of "RUN" then the same >> code is run using single-precision (but I haven't verified yet if that >> translates into an actual runtime speed difference). I think most of the >> "street BASICs" used single precision (if they supported floats at all). >> But speaking of Microsoft BASIC, I think Monte Davidoff is still around >> and deserves a lot of credit for doing the floating point library in the >> initial Microsoft BASIC (but it's a bit sad that history has lost the names >> of individual contributors >=20 > I think most of the "street BASICs" were written before IEEE-754 (floating > point standard) was ratified (1985 if I recall). Microsoft's floating point > [1] was five bytes long---four bytes for the mantissa, and one byte for the > exponent, biased by 129. I did some tests a month ago whereby I tested the > speed of the Microsoft floating point math on the 6809 (using Color Computer > BASIC) vs. the Motorola 6839 (floating point ROM implementing IEEE-754), and > the Microsoft version was faster [2]. BASIC-PLUS (part of RSTS) had a weird floating point history. The original v= ersion, through RSTS V3, used 3-word floating point: two words mantissa, one = word exponent. Then, presumably to match the 11/45 FPU, in version 4A they s= witched to your choice of 2 or 4 word float, what later in the VAX era came t= o be called "F" and "D" float. One curious thing about floating point formats of earlier computers is that t= hey came with wrinkles not seen either in IEEE nor in DEC float. As I recall= , the 360 is really hex float, not binary, with an exponent that gives a powe= r of 16. CDC 6600 series mainframes used a floating point format where the m= antissa is an integer, not a fraction, and negation is done by complementing = the entire word. The Electrologica X8 is yet another variation, which apparently came from an = academic paper of the era: it treats the mantissa as an integer too, like the= CDC 6600, but with a different normalizationn rule. THe 6600 does it like m= ost others: shift left until all leading zeroes have been eliminated. (It do= esn't have a "hidden bit" as DEC did.) But in the EL-X8, the normalization r= ule is to make the exponent as close to zero as possible without losing bits.= So an integer value is normalized to the actual integer with exponent zero.= And since there is no "excess n" bias on the exponent, the encoding of an i= nteger and of the identical normalized floating point value are in fact the s= ame. paul --===============5899799060662426248==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat May 4 01:02:57 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CP/M Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 21:02:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0370362087443170391==" --===============0370362087443170391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Herb Johnson has some good info on the history of cp/m here https://www.retrotechnology.com/#dri Bill On Fri, May 3, 2024, 8:23 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I came across an article that said CP/M came out in April 1974. I remember > using this OS in the microcomputer world in the late 70=E2=80=99s; early 80= =E2=80=99s. It > came from PL/M, (Programming Language for Microcomputers) later renamed > CP/M(Control Program for Microcomputers). I=E2=80=99m not sure what its leg= acy is > though as far as I can recall it was wrapped up in litigation for quite > some time. It was used in the 8-bit world but not sure what it's role was > in the early PC world! > > Happy computing, > > Murray =F0=9F=99=82 > --===============0370362087443170391==-- From gavin@learn.bio Sat May 4 01:20:00 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 20:19:44 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3251152446010927977==" --===============3251152446010927977== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:49=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > BASIC-PLUS (part of RSTS) had a weird floating point history. The original= version, through RSTS V3, used 3-word floating point: two words mantissa, on= e word exponent. Then, presumably to match the 11/45 FPU, in version 4A they= switched to your choice of 2 or 4 word float, what later in the VAX era came= to be called "F" and "D" float. Interesting. The original (pre-Series II) HP 3000 systems in the mid 1970s also started with a three (16-bit) word floating point format and later switched to supporting both 2 and 4 word formats. One of the only ways you would see this is in the header line that displays when you run BASIC:: :BASIC HP32101B.00.26(4WD) BASIC (C)HEWLETT-PACKARD CO 1979 > The "4WD" (as opposed to "3WD") tells you you're on a machine that uses the four word long floating point. --===============3251152446010927977==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat May 4 01:24:33 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 18:24:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8144075165581180804==" --===============8144075165581180804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/3/24 17:48, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: I seem to recall that MCBA's business applications were originally coded in DG BASIC. --Chuck --===============8144075165581180804==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat May 4 01:27:50 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 21:27:41 -0400 Message-ID: <9CC87DDD-DD0F-44B7-AFA9-943B4A9EB9FB@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <67C45D54-989B-4D7B-B839-2BC532A80F45@sytse.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5380120767607622043==" --===============5380120767607622043== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 3, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: >=20 > And since nobody else seems to, allow me to recall: >=20 > - MINC BASIC, with all its extensions for I/O and real time events. >=20 > - MUBAS, the multi-user basic for RT-11. >=20 > And playing around with BASIC is just so much easier and more fun than anyt= hing else you can do with old hardware or emulations thereof. Run a C program= ? Sure, marvel in how much slower it is than on your desktop, phone, or the M= CU in your microwave. None of those will have BASIC though, and certainly not= the MINC extensions with the blinkenlights. And isn't that what all the joy = is about? That's one reason I like FORTH: it's just as compact, perhaps more so, fast, = and much more flexible and extensible than BASIC. I didn't know MINC BASIC, should compare it with the "LABBASIC" I created in = college. The one line description is identical; mine ran on an 11/20 with AD= 01, AD11, KW11-P and DR11-A. The programmable clock enabled stuff like take = a vector of samples spaced at a tightly controlled time interval, or run bits= of BASIC code from timer (or DR11) interrupts.=20 paul --===============5380120767607622043==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat May 4 01:30:41 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Saga of CP/M Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 18:30:36 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3645971251341195145==" --===============3645971251341195145== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for microprocessors. CP/M was also briefly called "Control Program and Monitor" It was written by Gary Kildall. (May 19, 1942 - july 11, 1994) Gary taught at Navy Postgraduate School in Monterey. He took a break in 1972, to complete his PhD at University of Washington. He wrote 8008 and 8080 instruction set simulators for Intel, and they loaned = him hardware. In 1973? he wrote CP/M. He offered it to Intel, but they didn't want it, although they marketed the=20 PL/M. He and his wife started "Intergalactic Digital Research" in Pacific Grove.=20 Later renamed "Digital Research, Inc." CP/M rapidly became a defacto standard as operating system for 8080 and later= =20 Z80 computers. In the late 1970s, when CP/M computers were available with 5.25" drives, and = there were hundreds, soon thousands of different formats, I chatted with Gary= ,=20 and pleaded with him ot create a "standard" format for 5.25". His response was a very polite, "The standard format for CP/M is 8 inch singl= e=20 sided single density." I pointed out that formats were proliferating excessively. His response was a very polite, "I understand. Sorry, but the standard format= =20 for CP/M is 8 inch single sided single density." In 1980? IBM was developing a personal computer. (y'all have heard of it) One= =20 of the IBM people had a Microsoft Softcard (Z80 plus CP/M) in his Apple. IBM= =20 went to Microsoft, to negotiate BASIC for the new machine, and CP/M. Bill Gates explained and sent them to Digital Research. When the IBM representatives arrived, Gary was flying his plane up to Oakland= =20 to visit Bill Godbout. He hadn't seen a need to be present, and assumed that= =20 Dorothy would take care of the [presumably completely routine] paperwork. Whi= le=20 visiting Bill godbout, and delivering some software was important, it WAS=20 something that a low level courier could have done. There was a little bit of a culture clash. The IBM people were all in identical blue suits. The DR people were in sandals, barefoot, shorts, t-shirts, braless women, wit= h=20 bicycles, surfboard, plants and even cats in the office, The IBM people demanded a signed non=3Ddisclosure ageement before talking.=20 Dorothy Kildall refused. When Dorothy got Gary on the phone, it is unreliably reported that he said,=20 "well, let them sit on the couch and wait their turn like the rest of the=20 customers." It is also been said that DR people upstairs saw the IBM people marching up, = and thought that it was a drug raid. I have stood in that bay window=20 overlooking the front door, and can believe that. IBM chose to not do business with DR and went back to Microsoft. When billg was unable to convince them that Microsoft was not in the operatin= g=20 system business, Microsoft went into the operating system business. They=20 bought an unlimited license to QDOS (Tim Paterson's work at Seattle Computer = Products). They also hired Tim Paterson. DR was working on CP/M-86, but it was a ways off. Paterson had written QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") as a placehold= er=20 to be able to continue development while waiting for CP/M-86 We've mentioned before, that Tim Paterson got the idea for the directory=20 structure from Microsoft Standalone BASIC. As Chuck pointed out, that was no= t=20 a new invention, merely a choice of which way to do it. billg knew how to deal with officious managers. It is unreliably said that h= e=20 told the Microsoft people, "Everybody who does not own a suit, stay home=20 tomorrow!" IBM insisted that Micorsoft beef up security. window shades, locks on doors = that normally weren't, locks on file cabinets, etc. It is unreliably said that to throw off anyboy who heard about it, that=20 Microsoft referred to the IBm project as "Project Commodore" dr continued to sell CP/M. When the 5150/:PC was ready, IBM announced it with PC-DOS, which was a renami= ng=20 of MS-DOS,renaming 86-DOS, renaming QDOS. If I recall correctly theprice was $40 (or maybe $60?) DR pointed out that NS-DOS was extremely similar to CP/M. https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~johnsojr/2012-13/fall/cs370/resources/An%20Inside%= 20Look%20at%20MS-DOS.pdf IBM didn't consider it a problem, andsimply offered to ALSO sell CP/M-86,=20 particularly since they were already also marketing UCSD P-System. CP/M-86 was not available yet, so everybody buying a disk based PC bought=20 PC-DOS. But, most of us assumed thata CP/M-86 would become the standard once it came = out, and PC-DOS was similar and let us use the machines while waiting. CP/M-86 took a long time to come out (6 months is a LONG time in such things). When it did, the price was $240. There are disagreemnets about whether DR or IBM had set the price point. Most decided to keep using Pc-DOs until CP/M-86 had caught on. But with the price differential, and the lead, PC-DOS remained the standard. dr continued, came out with MP/M-86, and eventually came out with "Concurrent= =20 DOS", and "DR-DOS", which was based on MS-DOS. Microsoft could not fault somebody for copying them, when it was the ones tha= t=20 they had copied. No, Microsoft could certainly not claim trademark status for "DOS"! In fact, although Microsoft trademarkd "MS-DOS", IBM did NOT trademark PC-DOS= ,=20 saying that it just meant Personal Compter Disk Operating System, which is a = description, not a unique name. In 1987, I visited the Patent and Trademark = Office outside of Washington, DC, and personally confirmed that in their=20 stacks. Many people have said that blowing off IBM was the stupidest move in the=20 history of stupid moves. Other people insist that blowing off IBM was the BRAVEST move in history. A lot of people gave Gary flack about it. eventually, he bagan drinking. On July 8, 1994, Gary fell and hit his head. It is unclear whether that was=20 during an altercation. (A lot of people fall during bar brawls) It was at t= he=20 Franklin Street biker Bar & Grill, Investigation as a potential homicide was = inconclusive. About 10 years ago, I was in Pacific Grove, and visited the DR house on=20 Lighthouse street. An extremely hospitable fellow had recently bought it in = a=20 foreclosure sale. At the time that he bought it, he was unaware of the=20 historical significance. He let me wander through the whole place, looking o= ut=20 the upstairs window at the walkway, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3645971251341195145==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sat May 4 01:37:57 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 19:41:08 -0500 Message-ID: <2c51e80d-feea-4238-b359-9c2ba0203d01@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1305319046457727633==" --===============1305319046457727633== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wonder if some intermediary is buying it for a country that cannot legally purchase something like that from the USA. I'm not normally a conspiracy guy but why would any normal company pay half a million dollars for something that could be produced with today's technology for considerably less? On 5/3/2024 6:57 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > Sold at $480,085.00. > > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 6:22 PM Gavin Scott wrote: >> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:14 PM Liam Proven via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> Bad news... >> But does he have 8,000 of them haha. >> >> Auction is at $435K now (past the end time) with multiple active >> bidders extending it. --===============1305319046457727633==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat May 4 01:54:26 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saga of CP/M Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 18:54:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8381753595978381887==" --===============8381753595978381887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/3/24 18:30, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for > microprocessors. Notable that a subset of PL/I was marketed for CP/M around 1981 or so. I've heard from some folks that Gary developed ISIS for Intel. That is definitely not true. It was the work of Jim Stein and Terry Burgett. Disk allocation was quite different from CP/M. ISIS used a list-sort of structure, like Unix. I almost took a job as site analyst at the PG school for CDC, but thought better of it. The guy who did get the job spent a lot of time at the Hog's Breath Inn in Carmel, I recall. --Chuck --===============8381753595978381887==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Sat May 4 02:07:51 2024 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 22:07:39 -0400 Message-ID: <12bcc62f-71ca-4c5f-8703-54fe30b21332@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <2c51e80d-feea-4238-b359-9c2ba0203d01@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1556940925569017364==" --===============1556940925569017364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In the 1980's I attended a US Gov't auction for a Vax 780.  It was being exported to South Africa and the State Dept stopped the transfer because it was ultimately going to a banned country.  Don't know which one, but I do remember the system was configured for 50Hz power.  50Hz power, disks, cpu, everything.  Wow. Doug On 5/3/2024 8:41 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if some intermediary is buying it for a country that cannot > legally purchase something like that from the USA. > > I'm not normally a conspiracy guy but why would any normal company pay > half a million dollars for something that could be produced with > today's technology for considerably less? > > On 5/3/2024 6:57 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >> Sold at $480,085.00. >> >> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 6:22 PM Gavin Scott wrote: >>> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:14 PM Liam Proven via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Bad news... >>> But does he have 8,000 of them haha. >>> >>> Auction is at $435K now (past the end time) with multiple active >>> bidders extending it. > --===============1556940925569017364==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat May 4 02:08:59 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 19:08:49 -0700 Message-ID: <2f29bae5-3363-45b1-8814-8fce8b133250@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <2c51e80d-feea-4238-b359-9c2ba0203d01@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3989462020849215108==" --===============3989462020849215108== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/3/24 17:41, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if some intermediary is buying it for a country that cannot > legally purchase something like that from the USA. > > I'm not normally a conspiracy guy but why would any normal company pay > half a million dollars for something that could be produced with today's > technology for considerably less? Careful disassembly and transportation could run well into 6 figures all by itself. Disassembling for scrap is considerably easier. Bolt cutters, impact wrenches and sawzalls. --Chuck --===============3989462020849215108==-- From gavin@learn.bio Sat May 4 02:57:47 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 21:57:32 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2f29bae5-3363-45b1-8814-8fce8b133250@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4584634615714841099==" --===============4584634615714841099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 9:09 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Careful disassembly and transportation could run well into 6 figures all > by itself. Just getting it out of NCAR could be a substantial fraction of that. Per the auction documents it looks like about 100,000 pounds (~45,000kg) of racks. I think smuggling Nvidia cards would be substantially more viable. --===============4584634615714841099==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Sat May 4 03:45:10 2024 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] New VCF Video bumper Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 23:44:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1585671469429432292==" --===============1585671469429432292== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Vintage Computer Federation is looking for a new bumper to add to the front and back of all their new videos. There are 7 different versions. Vote on the one that you like best! https://forms.gle/Y9Qrj26xokeFXjub6 --===============1585671469429432292==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Sat May 4 04:06:04 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: New VCF Video bumper Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 21:05:47 -0700 Message-ID: <6635b424.170a0220.5a8f5.07f8@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7733893725275921364==" --===============7733893725275921364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I watched them all.=C2=A0 Hmm.I don't think I much like the SID ones.. Commod= ore has become kind of overexposed as a subject and VCF covers so much more t= han Commodore.The Atari one is kind of loud/jarring.I think the graphic seque= nce itself is great but the typing.. hmm.=C2=A0 I realize these are the choic= es but if there was another option with like a single daisywheel or modem or = disk drive or teletype sound - that would do it for me.Just my thoughts.. fri= endly critique here.BradSent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Jeffrey Brace via cctalk Date: 2024-05-03 8:45=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: "General D= iscussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Jeffre= y Brace Subject: [cctalk] New VCF Video bumper The Vint= age Computer Federation is looking for a new bumper to add to thefront and ba= ck of all their new videos.There are 7 different versions. Vote on the one th= at you like best!https://forms.gle/Y9Qrj26xokeFXjub6 --===============7733893725275921364==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Sat May 4 04:10:46 2024 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: New VCF Video bumper Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 00:10:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6635b424.170a0220.5a8f5.07f8@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2548167532233604439==" --===============2548167532233604439== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 12:05 AM brad wrote: > I watched them all. Hmm. > > I don't think I much like the SID ones.. Commodore has become kind of > overexposed as a subject and VCF covers so much more than Commodore. > > The Atari one is kind of loud/jarring. > > I think the graphic sequence itself is great but the typing.. hmm. I > realize these are the choices but if there was another option with like a > single daisywheel or modem or disk drive or teletype sound - that would do > it for me. > > Just my thoughts.. friendly critique here. > So are you willing to make another option for us? > > Brad > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jeffrey Brace via cctalk > Date: 2024-05-03 8:45 p.m. (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Jeffrey Brace > Subject: [cctalk] New VCF Video bumper > > The Vintage Computer Federation is looking for a new bumper to add to the > front and back of all their new videos. > There are 7 different versions. Vote on the one that you like best! > > https://forms.gle/Y9Qrj26xokeFXjub6 > --===============2548167532233604439==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Sat May 4 04:15:10 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] floating point formatnas [was: BASIC] Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 23:15:03 -0500 Message-ID: <2038070924.2125337.1714796104003@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0301582608317649173==" --===============0301582608317649173== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And the 1620 was a 2 decimal digit exponent with a 2 to 98 digit mantissa. I= IRC, you could do math on two numbers with different length mantissas. You = could watch a division with a long mantissa crank through. integer multiplication/division on numbers up to almost 10,000 decimal digits= , and addition/subtraction on two numbers up to almost half of total memory (= max of just under 30,000 decimal digits each). 
--Carey
> On 05/03/2024 7:48 PM CDT Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > > On May 3, 2024, at 5:31 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > > It was thus said that the Great Steve Lewis via cctalk once stated: > >> Great discussions about BASIC. I talked about the IBM 5110 flavor of > >> BASIC last year (such as its FORM keyboard for quickly making structured > >> input forms), and recently "re-learned" that it defaults to running with > >> double-precision. But if you use "RUNS" instead of "RUN" then the same > >> code is run using single-precision (but I haven't verified yet if that > >> translates into an actual runtime speed difference). I think most of the > >> "street BASICs" used single precision (if they supported floats at all). > >> But speaking of Microsoft BASIC, I think Monte Davidoff is still around > >> and deserves a lot of credit for doing the floating point library in the > >> initial Microsoft BASIC (but it's a bit sad that history has lost the na= mes > >> of individual contributors > >=20 > > I think most of the "street BASICs" were written before IEEE-754 (floati= ng > > point standard) was ratified (1985 if I recall). Microsoft's floating po= int > > [1] was five bytes long---four bytes for the mantissa, and one byte for t= he > > exponent, biased by 129. I did some tests a month ago whereby I tested t= he > > speed of the Microsoft floating point math on the 6809 (using Color Compu= ter > > BASIC) vs. the Motorola 6839 (floating point ROM implementing IEEE-754), = and > > the Microsoft version was faster [2]. >=20 > BASIC-PLUS (part of RSTS) had a weird floating point history. The original= version, through RSTS V3, used 3-word floating point: two words mantissa, on= e word exponent. Then, presumably to match the 11/45 FPU, in version 4A they= switched to your choice of 2 or 4 word float, what later in the VAX era came= to be called "F" and "D" float. >=20 > One curious thing about floating point formats of earlier computers is that= they came with wrinkles not seen either in IEEE nor in DEC float. As I reca= ll, the 360 is really hex float, not binary, with an exponent that gives a po= wer of 16. CDC 6600 series mainframes used a floating point format where the= mantissa is an integer, not a fraction, and negation is done by complementin= g the entire word. >=20 > The Electrologica X8 is yet another variation, which apparently came from a= n academic paper of the era: it treats the mantissa as an integer too, like t= he CDC 6600, but with a different normalizationn rule. THe 6600 does it like= most others: shift left until all leading zeroes have been eliminated. (It = doesn't have a "hidden bit" as DEC did.) But in the EL-X8, the normalization= rule is to make the exponent as close to zero as possible without losing bit= s. So an integer value is normalized to the actual integer with exponent zer= o. And since there is no "excess n" bias on the exponent, the encoding of an= integer and of the identical normalized floating point value are in fact the= same. >=20 > paul --===============0301582608317649173==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Sat May 4 04:27:55 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 23:27:49 -0500 Message-ID: <811069466.2125359.1714796869380@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <2c51e80d-feea-4238-b359-9c2ba0203d01@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8546174903099259751==" --===============8546174903099259751== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am not an expert, but are all petaflops the same? might there be some appl= ications fo which this is relatively better than the nominally equivalent pet= aflops of nvidia? as in how intermediate results are shared between calcula= tion units, this is likely to be more cross connected so values can be share = faster, the nvidia would have to keep stopping and waiting to get values from= another node? And of course, could it be some company that has one and wants a drop in back= up or second site? and being bid against by competitors that DON'T want them= to have a backup? 
--Carey
> On 05/03/2024 7:41 PM CDT Mike Katz via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =20 > I wonder if some intermediary is buying it for a country that cannot=20 > legally purchase something like that from the USA. >=20 > I'm not normally a conspiracy guy but why would any normal company pay=20 > half a million dollars for something that could be produced with today's=20 > technology for considerably less? >=20 > On 5/3/2024 6:57 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > > Sold at $480,085.00. > > > > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 6:22=E2=80=AFPM Gavin Scott wr= ote: > >> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:14=E2=80=AFPM Liam Proven via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Bad news... > >> But does he have 8,000 of them haha. > >> > >> Auction is at $435K now (past the end time) with multiple active > >> bidders extending it. --===============8546174903099259751==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat May 4 04:33:09 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 21:32:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5330360216083997482==" --===============5330360216083997482== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 12:48=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Where would you fit the Tandy Model 100 in here? Ultimately it > >> supported a disk drive, ran basic and also sported an expansion box > >> that included video support and a floppy. > > On Fri, 3 May 2024, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Ultimately, so did the TRS-80. At least Model I, III and 4. > > and ethernet, too. Come to think of it, so does the Color > > Computer. Not sure where we are going with this. :-) > > The "Coco" ("Color Computer") was similar to Microsoft Standalone BASIC, > particularly in its disk format. > > The TRS80 models 1, 3, and 4 had file commands in their BASICs. > They ran under TRS-DOS. > > > The Saga Of TRSDOS: (long (TLDR?)) > ... -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com Great write-up, Fred. Sellam --===============5330360216083997482==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Sat May 4 04:56:47 2024 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: New VCF Video bumper Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 21:56:38 -0700 Message-ID: <6635c009.050a0220.b0399.f546@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9186177975530322019==" --===============9186177975530322019== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd be happy to make an attempt or two if interested.=C2=A0 I have a few vint= age printers and tons of machines and peripherals.. sure I could offer some p= ossible options.Not trying to dump on anyone's work by *any* means - just fri= endly and hopefully constructive comments. This stuff is very subjective.=C2= =A0 I may also be a little overly sensitive on sound as I received a ton of..= . er.. critique when I started out in my part time youtubing career.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0It may not matter as much on a bumper.BradSent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Jeffrey Brace D= ate: 2024-05-03 9:10=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: brad Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: [cctalk] New VCF Video bumper On Sat, May 4, 2024= at 12:05=E2=80=AFAM brad wrote:I watched them= all.=C2=A0 Hmm.I don't think I much like the SID ones.. Commodore has become= kind of overexposed as a subject and VCF covers so much more than Commodore.= The Atari one is kind of loud/jarring.I think the graphic sequence itself is = great but the typing.. hmm.=C2=A0 I realize these are the choices but if ther= e was another option with like a single daisywheel or modem or disk drive or = teletype sound - that would do it for me.=C2=A0Just my thoughts.. friendly cr= itique here.So are you willing to make another option for us?=C2=A0BradSent f= rom my Galaxy-------- Original message --------From: Jeffrey Brace via cctalk= Date: 2024-05-03 8:45=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) T= o: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Jeffrey Brace Subject: [cctalk] New VCF Video bu= mper The Vintage Computer Federation is looking for a new bumper to add to th= efront and back of all their new videos.There are 7 different versions. Vote = on the one that you like best!https://forms.gle/Y9Qrj26xokeFXjub6 --===============9186177975530322019==-- From gianluca.bonetti@gmail.com Sat May 4 05:52:15 2024 From: Gianluca Bonetti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Help request with fundraising campaign to save historic computers Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 10:35:49 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0170570767072550487==" --===============0170570767072550487== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone I have been following this mailing for a long time but have never posted yet. Simply, I never had something interesting to write about, until now. Apologies for my first message being a funding request, but I trust you will agree with me about the importance of this matter for preserving computer history. I am helping Museo del Computer with this fundraising effort in order to save a large number of machines with significant historic value, including some Sperry Univac systems. Museo del Computer is a non-profit organization in northern Italy, run solely by volunteer work and donors' money since governments are still not interested in computer history. Museo del Computer is one of the largest computer history museums worldwide, with 4000 sqm between exhibition area and storage space, open to the public upon booking. This recovery expedition will go as far as 750km to load 100+ machines onto 3 lorries. The goal is to preserve these history-rich machines for all living enthusiasts and for future generations. All these hundred machines are really pieces of history, around 50 years old (I wasn't even born back then!) They need to be saved, moved carefully, and preserved in the custody of a Museum which we can all benefit from. The fundraising campaign is on Fundrazr at this link https://fundrazr.com/computermuseum Header pictures show some of the actual machines being saved: they are in great condition and probably still working. I trust you understand the importance of this activity in preserving computer history! Your contribution is greatly appreciated! Please share and spread the word! Thank you very much for any contributions! Will keep you posted, and hope to meet you at Museo del Computer any time soon! Gianluca Bonetti --===============0170570767072550487==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sat May 4 08:54:15 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CP/M Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 09:53:59 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1627822588923584312==" --===============1627822588923584312== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was also Concurrent CP/M (possibly only a /86 variant). On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 2:02=E2=80=AFAM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Herb Johnson has some good info on the history of cp/m here > https://www.retrotechnology.com/#dri > Bill > > On Fri, May 3, 2024, 8:23 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I came across an article that said CP/M came out in April 1974. I > remember > > using this OS in the microcomputer world in the late 70=E2=80=99s; early = 80=E2=80=99s. It > > came from PL/M, (Programming Language for Microcomputers) later renamed > > CP/M(Control Program for Microcomputers). I=E2=80=99m not sure what its l= egacy is > > though as far as I can recall it was wrapped up in litigation for quite > > some time. It was used in the 8-bit world but not sure what it's role was > > in the early PC world! > > > > Happy computing, > > > > Murray =F0=9F=99=82 > > > --===============1627822588923584312==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat May 4 09:04:00 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 04:03:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0414120898705357354==" --===============0414120898705357354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just for fun, I keyed in and ran the "Ahl Benchmark" on a few "boots-to-BASIC" systems that I still have setup: Exploring Project Ahl in 2024 =E2=80=94 voidstar https://voidstar.blog/exploring-project-ahl-in-2024/ On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 5:58=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I remember that one of the changes that "street" BASICs made was to make > the keyword "LET" be optional. > Thus, instead of writing > LET X =3D 3 > you could write > X =3D 3 > > unfortunately, that further confused the issue of ASSIGNMENT versus > EQUALITY, > and many beginners tried to write > 3 =3D X > while they certainly would not have tried to write > LET 3 =3D X > > > Sorry, but off the top of my head, I can't recall the many other > differences. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============0414120898705357354==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Sat May 4 15:21:24 2024 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 15:21:14 +0000 Message-ID: <1c96fe11-6afd-47e9-ad9d-90a0f56c7fec@w2hx.com> In-Reply-To: <811069466.2125359.1714796869380@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6840927629829531175==" --===============6840927629829531175== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder how well that machine would do at bitcoin mining Sent from Nine ________________________________ From: CAREY SCHUG via cctalk Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2024 12:28 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: CAREY SCHUG Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne I am not an expert, but are all petaflops the same? might there be some appl= ications fo which this is relatively better than the nominally equivalent pet= aflops of nvidia? as in how intermediate results are shared between calcula= tion units, this is likely to be more cross connected so values can be share = faster, the nvidia would have to keep stopping and waiting to get values from= another node? And of course, could it be some company that has one and wants a drop in back= up or second site? and being bid against by competitors that DON'T want them= to have a backup? 
--Carey
> On 05/03/2024 7:41 PM CDT Mike Katz via cctalk wr= ote: > > > I wonder if some intermediary is buying it for a country that cannot > legally purchase something like that from the USA. > > I'm not normally a conspiracy guy but why would any normal company pay > half a million dollars for something that could be produced with today's > technology for considerably less? > > On 5/3/2024 6:57 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > > Sold at $480,085.00. > > > > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 6:22=E2=80=AFPM Gavin Scott wr= ote: > >> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:14=E2=80=AFPM Liam Proven via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Bad news... > >> But does he have 8,000 of them haha. > >> > >> Auction is at $435K now (past the end time) with multiple active > >> bidders extending it. --===============6840927629829531175==-- From ethan@757.org Sat May 4 16:02:21 2024 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 11:53:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1c96fe11-6afd-47e9-ad9d-90a0f56c7fec@w2hx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1043187216287569364==" --===============1043187216287569364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I wonder how well that machine would do at bitcoin mining Extremely poor? -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============1043187216287569364==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat May 4 16:41:13 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 11:41:04 -0500 Message-ID: <03459eb4-3778-15af-f73a-a9c4098f68c2@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <1c96fe11-6afd-47e9-ad9d-90a0f56c7fec@w2hx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2483099546145947186==" --===============2483099546145947186== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/4/24 10:21, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > I wonder how well that machine would do at bitcoin mining > Umm, it will consume about 4000 Dollars of electricity per day! That is not counting the cooling required, just the power input. that's about $15 million per year. Jon --===============2483099546145947186==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat May 4 16:47:09 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help request with fundraising campaign to save historic computers Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 09:46:51 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2106425205414548386==" --===============2106425205414548386== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 9:28 AM Gianluca Bonetti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > ... > I am helping Museo del Computer with this fundraising effort in order to > save a large number of machines with significant historic value, including > some Sperry Univac systems. > ... I would want to know more of the story and also to see more photos before I would consider donating. Sellam --===============2106425205414548386==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Sat May 4 17:28:32 2024 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 17:28:23 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <03459eb4-3778-15af-f73a-a9c4098f68c2@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7257103173032239616==" --===============7257103173032239616== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure but at $60k per bitcoin it only takes 267 bitcoins to earn a $1M profit = on that $15M per year cost! But I have no idea if a machine like that could m= ine 266 coins in a year or 22/month. Sent from Nine ________________________________ From: Jon Elson via cctalk Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2024 12:41 PM To: W2HX via cctalk Cc: Jon Elson Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne On 5/4/24 10:21, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > I wonder how well that machine would do at bitcoin mining > Umm, it will consume about 4000 Dollars of electricity per day! That is not counting the cooling required, just the power input. that's about $15 million per year. Jon --===============7257103173032239616==-- From gavin@learn.bio Sat May 4 19:13:55 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 14:13:38 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5806800977278875257==" --===============5806800977278875257== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 12:28=E2=80=AFPM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Sure but at $60k per bitcoin it only takes 267 bitcoins to earn a $1M profi= t on that $15M per year cost! But I have no idea if a machine like that could= mine 266 coins in a year or 22/month. I'm not really sure if Cheyenne could ever mine a single bitcoin at this point. Bitcoin mining (as I understand it) moved from CPUs (like Cheyenne, even if it has a lot of them) to GPUs many years ago, and it has now even been quite a few years since they abandoned the use of GPUs too. Today it's done on huge clusters of ASIC hash calculators. You need to be able to do something like 3,000 trillion SHA-256 hashes per second to make one Bitcoin per day (at least according to a quick search). If by "Bitcoin" you mean crypto-mining in general, there's probably something it could be used for, but it would be horribly inefficient compared to more modern hardware. The first uses for Cheyenne that seem to pop to mind (Crypto and AI) are actually the two WORST applications for it I think. It might still be reasonably good at the kind of simulations it was acquired to run (atmospheric sims, etc.) --===============5806800977278875257==-- From drb@msu.edu Sat May 4 19:31:20 2024 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5,34 Petaflop System Cheyenne Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 15:31:14 -0400 Message-ID: <20240504193114.65E4F3A0177@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6798323589835376977==" --===============6798323589835376977== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cheyenne is a nice basement system. Only needs 1.75 MW. The system which replaced Cheyenne is Derecho, a 19.8 petaflop system. https://news.ucar.edu/132904/scientists-nationwide-launch-first-projects-new-= ncar-supercomputer Last fall, NOAA/NWS replaced theirs (one in Manassas, one in Phoenix) with new 12.5 petaflop systems. As the models evolve, they get more demanding. They were able to implement new and enhanced forecast models on the new machines. https://www.noaa.gov/news-release/noaa-completes-upgrade-to-weather-and-clima= te-supercomputer-system De --===============6798323589835376977==-- From cube1@charter.net Sun May 5 23:04:11 2024 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help request with fundraising campaign to save historic computers Date: Sun, 05 May 2024 18:04:05 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7511943352957640482==" --===============7511943352957640482== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/4/2024 11:46 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 9:28 AM Gianluca Bonetti via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> ... >> I am helping Museo del Computer with this fundraising effort in order to >> save a large number of machines with significant historic value, including >> some Sperry Univac systems. >> ... > > I would want to know more of the story and also to see more photos before I > would consider donating. > > Sellam I'm on the same page with you, Sellam.  I would want to see a website, and a link to the donation page on that website before I would consider donating. JRJ --===============7511943352957640482==-- From cube1@charter.net Sun May 5 23:16:13 2024 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help request with fundraising campaign to save historic computers Date: Sun, 05 May 2024 18:16:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1404697687198768712==" --===============1404697687198768712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/3/2024 5:35 AM, Gianluca Bonetti via cctalk wrote: > Hello everyone > > > I am helping Museo del Computer with this fundraising effort in order to > save a large number of machines with significant historic value, including > some Sperry Univac systems. > Museo del Computer is a non-profit organization in northern Italy, run > solely by volunteer work and donors' money since governments are still not > interested in computer history. > Museo del Computer is one of the largest computer history museums > worldwide, with 4000 sqm between exhibition area and storage space, open to > the public upon booking. > > This recovery expedition will go as far as 750km to load 100+ machines onto > 3 lorries. > Gianluca Bonetti Is there a list somewhere of the machines? Also, if there are EXEC OS tapes there, make sure those are treated with=20 care.=C2=A0 If they need help reading 7 track tapes and are willing to ship=20 them to the US, I can recommend a contact who recently read a 7 track=20 tape for me that dated back to the 1960s. As far as vetting the legitimacy of the fund raising campaign, I did a=20 little diggging. First I saw that there is a website that folks may find useful. http://www.museodelcomputer.org/ That website has a donations page, but the translation process makes it=20 hard to find the link on that donation page, but I did see a link on the=20 Italian version, and it does seem to point to the same place, so it=20 seems legit.=C2=A0 (There is a link I found on that page near the end of this= =20 posting). https://fundrazr.com/computermuseum?ref=3Dab_62Z1p5MB63862Z1p5MB638 Also, I followed a link from the above fundrazr that points back to=20 their website donation page, which is reassuring: http://www.museodelcomputer.org/index.php/nav=3DInformazioni.35/Language=3DIT= A/MD=3D/SD=3D/Pagina=3D4 JRJ --===============1404697687198768712==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon May 6 01:27:47 2024 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 50th birthday... Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 01:27:28 +0000 Message-ID: <1726519925.3966543.1714958848839@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4865566996493383093==" --===============4865566996493383093== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps After doing the layout work in the November=C2=A0 it was perhaps copy= righted Immediately during layout But it did not ship Until January Think!=C2= =A0 back in those days things did not instantly happen and we're instantly sh= ipped=C2=A0 Ed# Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:09 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Fri, May 3, 2024, 1:28=E2=80=AFAM Smith, Wayne via cctalk= wrote: > I looked up the Jan. 1975 issue of Popular Electronics in the Copyright > Office's Periodicals Digest.=C2=A0 It was published on Nov. 19, 1974 if you= are > looking for an actual anniversary date. > The January issue was certainly not available in November of 1974. When did it actually get sent out and start showing up in people's mailboxes? Sellam > =20 --===============4865566996493383093==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon May 6 01:36:35 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 50th birthday... Date: Sun, 05 May 2024 18:36:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1726519925.3966543.1714958848839@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3982085282947206928==" --===============3982085282947206928== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, in those days, magazines were printed, and mailed out, or shipped to=20 newstands before their nominal date, in order to be delivered by their=20 nominal date. The intent was that people would have it by January 1st, so=20 it would arrive in late December. So, the January 1975 one would have been written, copyrighted, and printed=20 in November or December 1974. On Mon, 6 May 2024, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Perhaps After doing the layout work in the November=C2=A0 it was perhaps co= pyrighted Immediately during layout But it did not ship Until January Think!= =C2=A0 back in those days things did not instantly happen and we're instantly= shipped=C2=A0 > Ed# > > Sent from AOL on Android > > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:09 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Fri, May 3, 2024, 1:28=E2=80=AFAM Smith, Wayne via cctal= k > wrote: > >> I looked up the Jan. 1975 issue of Popular Electronics in the Copyright >> Office's Periodicals Digest.=C2=A0 It was published on Nov. 19, 1974 if yo= u are >> looking for an actual anniversary date. >> > > The January issue was certainly not available in November of 1974. > > When did it actually get sent out and start showing up in people's > mailboxes? > > Sellam --===============3982085282947206928==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon May 6 06:26:53 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: New VCF Video bumper Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 01:26:38 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7363789760732234701==" --===============7363789760732234701== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I picked the regular Daisy Bell one (except there is a little blip/bump at the 2-second mark that is a little jarring). It's a homage to what the IBM 7094 did back in 1961 (while that one did have vocals, it is a bit eerie, and so just an audio track like a PDP-1 might play it is good). On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 12:03 AM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Vintage Computer Federation is looking for a new bumper to add to the > front and back of all their new videos. > There are 7 different versions. Vote on the one that you like best! > > https://forms.gle/Y9Qrj26xokeFXjub6 > --===============7363789760732234701==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 6 09:53:44 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 11:53:30 +0200 Message-ID: <10bf31d7-4778-7879-daff-9f49dcd27f@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <5441b324-5e6f-4596-88ab-a8833b5becf4@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5530330456309560168==" --===============5530330456309560168== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > I have tried bulk erasing 1.44 MB disks and they still won't format in the > HP9114A battery operated HP-IL Floppy Disk drive. Then I'd guess there is a problem with your drive; write-protect switch? Christian --===============5530330456309560168==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 6 09:55:00 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 11:54:50 +0200 Message-ID: <1bc410b5-fa65-65b-2597-e26cf5ae6e9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5659824311895579354==" --===============5659824311895579354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > The HP9114A drive uses a modified Sony 3.5" floppy drive running at 600 RPM > instead of the normal 300 RPM.  This is an extremely unusual configuration > that is different from any PC/MAC/Commodore/Amiga situation. I am using normal HD floppies in those 600 RPM Sony drives (HP 9121). I haven't had any issues for now. Christian --===============5659824311895579354==-- From kantexplain@protonmail.com Mon May 6 10:28:29 2024 From: Just Kant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 10:28:16 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1bc410b5-fa65-65b-2597-e26cf5ae6e9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2526237158514021731==" --===============2526237158514021731== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a vague recollection of someone telling me there was a trick to demagn= etizing high density disks. Perhaps wave a magnet in various ways, even movin= g the magnet to and from the disk's surface. Then again maybe it's just a cha= tgpt style hallucination. Wouldn't hurt to try though. --===============2526237158514021731==-- From jon@jonworld.com Mon May 6 14:41:58 2024 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Netflix Series: American Conspiracy/Octopus Murders Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 15:41:41 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1072719302188381645==" --===============1072719302188381645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey everyone, My better half recently turned this on and also a podcast with the creator/director. They mentioned they visited "someone" with a working VAX 11/780 to get b-roll footage for the movie. Which one of us was it? :D In all seriousness, it would be fun to try and get a vintage copy of the PROMIS software running on something (I assume it was VAX/VMS in its original incarnation, but many other screenshots show SNA/greenscreen implementations.) Cheers, all! -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============1072719302188381645==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon May 6 16:52:46 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: New VCF Video bumper Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 09:52:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7090228375885833496==" --===============7090228375885833496== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The weird noise at the beginning is confusing. Sounds like it starts off on a street somewhere. Sellam On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 10:03 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Vintage Computer Federation is looking for a new bumper to add to the > front and back of all their new videos. > There are 7 different versions. Vote on the one that you like best! > > https://forms.gle/Y9Qrj26xokeFXjub6 > --===============7090228375885833496==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Mon May 6 16:53:46 2024 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Netflix Series: American Conspiracy/Octopus Murders Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 18:53:30 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3707634765745231621==" --===============3707634765745231621== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do know the VAX-11/780 very well (although I do only own a /750), but what is the PROMIS software good for? Does it run on ancient VMS versions (i.e. V4 or earlier)? Jonathan Katz via cctalk schrieb am Mo., 6. Mai 2024, 16:41: > Hey everyone, > > My better half recently turned this on and also a podcast with the > creator/director. They mentioned they visited "someone" with a working > VAX 11/780 to get b-roll footage for the movie. Which one of us was > it? :D > > In all seriousness, it would be fun to try and get a vintage copy of > the PROMIS software running on something (I assume it was VAX/VMS in > its original incarnation, but many other screenshots show > SNA/greenscreen implementations.) > > Cheers, all! > > -- > -Jon > +44 7792 149029 > --===============3707634765745231621==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Mon May 6 16:56:42 2024 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: New VCF Video bumper Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 12:56:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6585681486680923012==" --===============6585681486680923012== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personally I like Brad's idea of a machine sound versus an intro tune. And if we can reduce background noise (e.g. putting the machine in an anechoic chamber or surrounding it with acoustic panels) when capturing that sound it would feel really professional. Might be easier said than done considering the size of some of these machines, haha. Acoustic foam: https://a.co/d/7cp3H6g =3D] -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 2:26=E2=80=AFAM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > I picked the regular Daisy Bell one (except there is a little blip/bump at > the 2-second mark that is a little jarring). It's a homage to what the > IBM 7094 did back in 1961 (while that one did have vocals, it is a bit > eerie, and so just an audio track like a PDP-1 might play it is good). > > > On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 12:03=E2=80=AFAM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The Vintage Computer Federation is looking for a new bumper to add to the > > front and back of all their new videos. > > There are 7 different versions. Vote on the one that you like best! > > > > https://forms.gle/Y9Qrj26xokeFXjub6 > > > --===============6585681486680923012==-- From pat@vax11.net Mon May 6 17:26:06 2024 From: Patrick Finnegan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Netflix Series: American Conspiracy/Octopus Murders Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 13:25:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6651895796587688500==" --===============6651895796587688500== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My museum is in the credits, so it was probably me... Patrick Finnegan On Mon, May 6, 2024, 10:42 Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > Hey everyone, > > My better half recently turned this on and also a podcast with the > creator/director. They mentioned they visited "someone" with a working > VAX 11/780 to get b-roll footage for the movie. Which one of us was > it? :D > > In all seriousness, it would be fun to try and get a vintage copy of > the PROMIS software running on something (I assume it was VAX/VMS in > its original incarnation, but many other screenshots show > SNA/greenscreen implementations.) > > Cheers, all! > > -- > -Jon > +44 7792 149029 > --===============6651895796587688500==-- From jon@jonworld.com Mon May 6 17:30:46 2024 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Netflix Series: American Conspiracy/Octopus Murders Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 18:30:29 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8695103212234191113==" --===============8695103212234191113== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Awesome! I figured I'd know someone involved. Did you actually get a vintage version of PROMIS running? They talk about it being so "revolutionary" in the documentary, but it just seems like any other database? On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 6:25 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > My museum is in the credits, so it was probably me... > > Patrick Finnegan --===============8695103212234191113==-- From jon@jonworld.com Mon May 6 17:32:33 2024 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Netflix Series: American Conspiracy/Octopus Murders Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 18:32:16 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6052228125191660285==" --===============6052228125191660285== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It dates back to the early 1980s and seems to run on VMS. It was specialised software for law enforcement used to manage casework, but could also do some pattern matching. Almost like a "prehistoric Palantir" based upon what the documentary said. There was a large scandal involving the software, involving stolen source code and the government trying to bankrupt the software company (which is still in business.) On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 5:53 PM Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk wrote: > > I do know the VAX-11/780 very well (although I do only own a /750), but > what is the PROMIS software good for? Does it run on ancient VMS versions > (i.e. V4 or earlier)? > > --===============6052228125191660285==-- From pat@vax11.net Mon May 6 17:36:14 2024 From: Patrick Finnegan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Netflix Series: American Conspiracy/Octopus Murders Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 13:35:56 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2140236419848928516==" --===============2140236419848928516== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There was some movie magic, so no running version of promis. I did the screen design myself for the TVI 950 based on pictures of screens running the software that Christian and Zach provided. They came last year and did a day of filming after a couple days of setting up the set at my place. Supposedly I was the only person they could find with a VAX 11/780 running that had somewhere they could film it (presumably also in their budget). They did pay me a bit for the location, but the whole experience was great. I'm happy it finally came out so I can talk about it. Patrick Finnegan On Mon, May 6, 2024, 13:30 Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > Awesome! I figured I'd know someone involved. Did you actually get a > vintage version of PROMIS running? They talk about it being so > "revolutionary" in the documentary, but it just seems like any other > database? > > On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 6:25 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > > My museum is in the credits, so it was probably me... > > > > Patrick Finnegan > --===============2140236419848928516==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon May 6 18:28:14 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 18:28:08 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CduqS-B0lHh9CARBvIOECySHq9VbQbRjMda-MN0XFg1sk8PFHgI?= =?utf-8?q?IVkDIrKCeLmylJ6AUl4BXZMfVDZGOWq=5FkV50j2K=5Fqde7sYv6HNmBgxZhA=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40protonmail=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6993587547315128845==" --===============6993587547315128845== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You do need a very strong magnet. I=E2=80=99ve put 3.5 floppies on top of a m= ag tape demagnitizer ( not technically called that, but you know what i mean)= and it had no effect at all. I could still read them fine in my pc. I surmis= ed that the magnetic field generated was not strong enough to get through the= plastic disk shield. Gave up after that.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On May 6, 2024, at 03:28, Just Kant via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI have a vague recollection of someone telling me there was a tric= k to demagnetizing high density disks. Perhaps wave a magnet in various ways,= even moving the magnet to and from the disk's surface. Then again maybe it's= just a chatgpt style hallucination. Wouldn't hurt to try though. --===============6993587547315128845==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon May 6 18:59:26 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 11:59:12 -0700 Message-ID: <5446921d-09c8-478f-8d01-d95040be0646@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181C5CB3F4AB3CC699FC8FDE41C2=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7452891389626969234==" --===============7452891389626969234== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/6/24 11:28, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > You do need a very strong magnet. I=E2=80=99ve put 3.5 floppies on top of a= mag tape demagnitizer ( not technically called that, but you know what i mea= n) and it had no effect at all. I could still read them fine in my pc. I surm= ised that the magnetic field generated was not strong enough to get through t= he plastic disk shield. Gave up after that.=20 I made my own PM demagnetizer (I do own a bulk videotape eraser also, but this one is so convenient and works very well). The trick was to use two magnets with like poles facing. I got the magnets from a magnetron--it took a fair amount of clamping to get the things set in place. Unlike poles facing doesn't work, BTW. https://i.imgur.com/MUKTExa.jpg --Chuck --===============7452891389626969234==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon May 6 19:10:01 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Netflix Series: American Conspiracy/Octopus Murders Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 12:09:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1633033377275112060==" --===============1633033377275112060== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 10:36 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > There was some movie magic, so no running version of promis. I did the > screen design myself for the TVI 950 based on pictures of screens running > the software that Christian and Zach provided. > > They came last year and did a day of filming after a couple days of setting > up the set at my place. Supposedly I was the only person they could find > with a VAX 11/780 running that had somewhere they could film it (presumably > also in their budget). > > They did pay me a bit for the location, but the whole experience was great. > I'm happy it finally came out so I can talk about it. > > Patrick Finnegan > The nice thing is that this should lead to further similar engagements for you in the future. Good work. Sellam --===============1633033377275112060==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon May 6 19:16:00 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 12:15:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5446921d-09c8-478f-8d01-d95040be0646@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8761700431861082373==" --===============8761700431861082373== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 11:59 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 5/6/24 11:28, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > You do need a very strong magnet. I’ve put 3.5 floppies on top of a mag > tape demagnitizer ( not technically called that, but you know what i mean) > and it had no effect at all. I could still read them fine in my pc. I > surmised that the magnetic field generated was not strong enough to get > through the plastic disk shield. Gave up after that. > > I made my own PM demagnetizer (I do own a bulk videotape eraser also, > but this one is so convenient and works very well). The trick was to > use two magnets with like poles facing. I got the magnets from a > magnetron--it took a fair amount of clamping to get the things set in > place. Unlike poles facing doesn't work, BTW. > > https://i.imgur.com/MUKTExa.jpg > > --Chuck > At the old Alameda County Computer Resource Center (the non-profit computer recycler I was shacked up with before I got my own warehouse and started my own recycling operation), James ("God") designed a bulk demagnetizer that accommodated several hundred 3.5" floppies at a time. He'd run it for I think 20 minutes (the period of time he determined was required for 100% erasure of data), which also had the side effect of heating up the disks, which had the desirable side effect of making it much easier to peel off the labels. They sold bulk recycled 3.5" disks and made good money off it (this is late 1990s). I wish I could remember the details of how he made it, but he basically took some existing thing and either modded it in some way or simply re-purposed it from its intended purpose to conveniently demagnetize floppy disks. Sellam --===============8761700431861082373==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon May 6 20:30:46 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 16:30:27 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7980734175768949399==" --===============7980734175768949399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/6/2024 2:28 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > You do need a very strong magnet. I’ve put 3.5 floppies on top of > a mag tape demagnitizer ( not technically called that, but you know > what i mean) and it had no effect at all. I could still read them fine > in my pc. I surmised that the magnetic field generated was not strong > enough to get through the plastic disk shield. Gave up after that. And yet, I have a cheap Radio Shack tape degauzer and it erases 3.5" disks just fine. I do it all the time whenever I have one that refuses to reformat. Quick pass over the degauzer and they usually work fine. If not, time to toss them. As for 720K disks I bought a box of new ones (12 boxes actually) several years ago on eBay and expect they will out last me. Especially now that I am moving everything to Goteks. bill --===============7980734175768949399==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon May 6 20:52:02 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 20:51:54 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB573787A5F65C7AA539AD6D63ED1C2=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2047860022559823776==" --===============2047860022559823776== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder if one of the old CRT demagnetizer=E2=80=98s would work. Sent from my iPhone > On May 6, 2024, at 13:30, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 5/6/2024 2:28 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > You do need a very strong magnet. I=E2=80=99ve put 3.5 floppies on top of > > a mag tape demagnitizer ( not technically called that, but you know > > what i mean) and it had no effect at all. I could still read them fine > > in my pc. I surmised that the magnetic field generated was not strong > > enough to get through the plastic disk shield. Gave up after that. >=20 > And yet, I have a cheap Radio Shack tape degauzer and it erases > 3.5" disks just fine. I do it all the time whenever I have > one that refuses to reformat. Quick pass over the degauzer > and they usually work fine. If not, time to toss them. > As for 720K disks I bought a box of new ones (12 boxes actually) > several years ago on eBay and expect they will out last me. > Especially now that I am moving everything to Goteks. >=20 > bill --===============2047860022559823776==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon May 6 22:13:05 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 15:12:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <10bf31d7-4778-7879-daff-9f49dcd27f@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8399667191800937274==" --===============8399667191800937274== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Radio Shack used to sell a "Bulk Tape Eraser". I gave mine to the college. Those are on eBay, and even Amazon. About 25 years ago, Radio Shack/Tandy changed the label and box, and called it "Bulk Disk Eraser". The college bought one, and discarded mine. But, as everyone knows, the one SURE way to totaally erase a disk is to store the only copy of something irreplaceable on it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8399667191800937274==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 7 01:30:18 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 18:30:05 -0700 Message-ID: <5d83b1d0-1dbc-49b8-ba1f-1a8111bc9449@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0575765143594413462==" --===============0575765143594413462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/6/24 15:12, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Radio Shack used to sell a "Bulk Tape Eraser".  I gave mine to the college. > Those are on eBay, and even Amazon. > I've had one of those for years. Resembles a kitchen Mixmaster without the beaters. The problem is that it has a limited working period of about a minute before it gets too hot and the thermal cutout stops the fun. --Chuck --===============0575765143594413462==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue May 7 01:42:34 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 20:42:24 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5d83b1d0-1dbc-49b8-ba1f-1a8111bc9449@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3673727390261771632==" --===============3673727390261771632== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I also have one of those from Radio Shack that I have had for more than=20 30 years. On 5/6/2024 8:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/6/24 15:12, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Radio Shack used to sell a "Bulk Tape Eraser".=C2=A0 I gave mine to the co= llege. >> Those are on eBay, and even Amazon. >> > I've had one of those for years. Resembles a kitchen Mixmaster without > the beaters. The problem is that it has a limited working period of > about a minute before it gets too hot and the thermal cutout stops the fun. > > --Chuck > > --===============3673727390261771632==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 7 01:58:06 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 18:58:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4580268362413394160==" --===============4580268362413394160== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ignorant question: Q: When looking for current availability of bulk tape/disk demagnetizers, on eBay, I ran into a lot of CD/DVD demagnetizers What kind of a problem do they have with magnetism? Or is this like the DVD REWINDERS? --===============4580268362413394160==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue May 7 02:11:38 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 22:11:07 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0253566479393977345==" --===============0253566479393977345== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Radio Shack sold two models: the original, suitable for cassettes and audio tapes, and a later, larger and more powerful version for video tapes as well (44-233A). I keep one of those plugged in beside my desk and still use it fairly often, but I'm planning to build one of Chuck's one of these days (that one minute on, 30 minute off (officially ;-) duty cycle is a PITA if you're degaussing a bunch of disks). On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:42=E2=80=AFPM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I also have one of those from Radio Shack that I have had for more than > 30 years. > > On 5/6/2024 8:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/6/24 15:12, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Radio Shack used to sell a "Bulk Tape Eraser". I gave mine to the > college. > >> Those are on eBay, and even Amazon. > >> > > I've had one of those for years. Resembles a kitchen Mixmaster without > > the beaters. The problem is that it has a limited working period of > > about a minute before it gets too hot and the thermal cutout stops the > fun. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > --===============0253566479393977345==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Tue May 7 03:01:20 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 22:01:15 -0500 Message-ID: <530428448.10694685.1715050875785@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4187753685244409342==" --===============4187753685244409342== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 05/06/2024 8:58 PM CDT Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: > > > Ignorant question: > > Q: When looking for current availability of bulk tape/disk demagnetizers, > on eBay, I ran into a lot of CD/DVD demagnetizers > What kind of a problem do they have with magnetism? > > Or is this like the DVD REWINDERS? A must-have accessory to go with your oxygen-free cables. https://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vs_demagnetizer_e.html Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============4187753685244409342==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Tue May 7 03:20:25 2024 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Vintage Computer and Technology Swap Meet - Wall, NJ - June 22, 2024 Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 23:20:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6126703379731547732==" --===============6126703379731547732== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Same place as last year in the big parking lot across from Brookdale and down the street from InfoAge Science and History Museums. We have the Southern Monmouth County Firehouse museum selling food and drinks in the middle. This is a fundraiser for both museums (VCF and Firehouse museum) which are both part of InfoAge. All the info is here: https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/ Thanks! Jeff Brace VCF Mid-Atlantic Event Manager Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity --===============6126703379731547732==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue May 7 03:23:17 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 20:23:09 -0700 Message-ID: <008301daa02d$e37ca460$aa75ed20$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4996752479678334201==" --===============4996752479678334201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred Never underestimate the sheer ludicrosity and gullibility of an audiophile! -Ali > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2024 6:58 PM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Fred Cisin > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks > > Ignorant question: > > Q: When looking for current availability of bulk tape/disk > demagnetizers, > on eBay, I ran into a lot of CD/DVD demagnetizers > What kind of a problem do they have with magnetism? > > Or is this like the DVD REWINDERS? --===============4996752479678334201==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 7 03:25:37 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 20:25:32 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <530428448.10694685.1715050875785@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2345562326784378279==" --===============2345562326784378279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Ignorant question: >> Q: When looking for current availability of bulk tape/disk demagnetizers, >> on eBay, I ran into a lot of CD/DVD demagnetizers >> What kind of a problem do they have with magnetism? >> Or is this like the DVD REWINDERS? On Mon, 6 May 2024, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > A must-have accessory to go with your oxygen-free cables. > https://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vs_demagnetizer_e.html OK But, neither this one for $80.99 https://www.ebay.com/itm/265168453635 nor even this one for $3600 https://www.ebay.com/itm/134706639303 include a basic feature for rewinding rental DVDs before returning them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2345562326784378279==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 7 03:55:07 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 20:54:53 -0700 Message-ID: <80651c90-08f5-42f3-8e7f-1e623d46697a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6808662316007278427==" --===============6808662316007278427== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/6/24 20:25, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: https://www.ebay.com/itm/134706639303 > > include a basic feature for rewinding rental DVDs before returning them. > Of course, you need a pure silver AC cable for those: https://www.ebay.com/itm/115970049389 --Chuck --===============6808662316007278427==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue May 7 04:22:59 2024 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 21:15:16 -0700 Message-ID: <0CF6082E-F8B6-4038-B806-775F0D34B7D0@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: <80651c90-08f5-42f3-8e7f-1e623d46697a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3441289071072832238==" --===============3441289071072832238== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe I need one of these power cords for my Monroe-Litton 1830 aka Compucorp= 485. It might make the calculations more precise? ;) Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 6, 2024, at 8:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 5/6/24 20:25, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/134706639303 >>=20 >> include a basic feature for rewinding rental DVDs before returning them. >>=20 > Of course, you need a pure silver AC cable for those: >=20 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/115970049389 >=20 > --Chuck >=20 --===============3441289071072832238==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue May 7 04:23:06 2024 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 21:16:43 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3125628401396073406==" --===============3125628401396073406== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BFMaybe I need one of these power cords for my Monroe-Litton 1830 aka = Compucorp 485. It might make the calculations more precise? ;) Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 6, 2024, at 8:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 5/6/24 20:25, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/134706639303 >> include a basic feature for rewinding rental DVDs before returning them. > Of course, you need a pure silver AC cable for those: >=20 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/115970049389 >=20 > --Chuck --===============3125628401396073406==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 7 04:33:15 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 21:33:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2208781191235360497==" --===============2208781191235360497== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/6/24 21:16, Don R wrote: > =EF=BB=BFMaybe I need one of these power cords for my Monroe-Litton 1830 ak= a Compucorp 485. It might make the calculations more precise? ;) That's the economy version. If you're *really* serious, you'll grab this one (on sale: 6% off!): https://www.ebay.com/itm/116042610200 --Chuck --===============2208781191235360497==-- From wayne.smith@wbd.com Tue May 7 05:19:03 2024 From: "Smith, Wayne" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 50th birthday... Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 23:33:45 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <171501480981.2847341.16633798858771876181@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6961977706880626145==" --===============6961977706880626145== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "November 19, 1974" is what is written on the "Date of Publication of This Is= sue" line in Copyright "Form B" (for periodicals) used at the time. The form= then states "The copyright law defines the 'date of publication' as '. . . t= he earliest date when copies . . . were placed on sale, sold or publicly dist= ributed." The form is then signed pursuant to 17 U.S.C. sec. 506(e), which p= rovided for a substantial fine in the event that any false representation was= made on the form. There is no reason to doubt the date of publication in the notice. In fact, = there is every reason to believe it is correct. In the magazine business it = is a routine business practice to have actual publication occur months prior = to the "cover date" the publisher places on the magazine. The reason for thi= s is so that the magazines could remain on the newsstands for at least a few = months without appearing to be stale. This is particularly the case with mag= azines published on a monthly cadence. Just as a check, I looked up the publication date of the January 1975 issue o= f Playboy. According to the copyright registration, it was November 20, 1974. > Date: Mon, 6 May 2024 01:27:28 +0000 (UTC) > From: ED SHARPE > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 50th birthday... > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Cc: Sellam Abraham > Message-ID: <1726519925.3966543.1714958848839(a)mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 >=20 > Perhaps After doing the layout work in the November=C2=A0 it was perhaps > copyrighted Immediately during layout But it did not ship Until January > Think!=C2=A0 back in those days things did not instantly happen and we're i= nstantly > shipped Ed# >=20 > Sent from AOL on Android >=20 > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:09 AM, Sellam Abraham via > cctalk wrote: On Fri, May 3, 2024, 1:28=E2=80=AF= AM Smith, > Wayne via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > I looked up the Jan. 1975 issue of Popular Electronics in the > > Copyright Office's Periodicals Digest.=C2=A0 It was published on Nov. 19, > > 1974 if you are looking for an actual anniversary date. > > >=20 > The January issue was certainly not available in November of 1974. >=20 > When did it actually get sent out and start showing up in people's mailboxe= s? >=20 > Sellam >=20 --===============6961977706880626145==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Tue May 7 05:24:13 2024 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 50th birthday... Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 05:24:02 +0000 Message-ID: <144903041.4226813.1715059442954@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSN6PR07MB5087B81F1D54A46F6D93A287E51C2=40SN6PR07MB?= =?utf-8?q?5087=2Enamprd07=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8357216738015543883==" --===============8357216738015543883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How well I had to remember the early deadline before the date something was r= eally going to be hit the streets I did photography work for magazines and ye= ah you had to have it in early just because it was going to be a December iss= ue I bet you had to have stuff in there generally several months ahead of tim= e are you lost out some editors wanted stuff even earlier just depended on ho= w they were and what they were doing and what schedule they were working on a= nd what their time frames were but yeah I think we all nailed it down on that= date then thanks everybody for chipping in on the information! Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 10:19 PM, Smith, Wayne via cctalk wrote: "November 19, 1974" is what is written on the "Date of Public= ation of This Issue" line in Copyright "Form B" (for periodicals) used at the= time.=C2=A0 The form then states "The copyright law defines the 'date of pub= lication' as '. . . the earliest date when copies . . . were placed on sale, = sold or publicly distributed."=C2=A0 The form is then signed pursuant to 17 U= .S.C. sec. 506(e), which provided for a substantial fine in the event that an= y false representation was made on the form. There is no reason to doubt the date of publication in the notice.=C2=A0 In f= act, there is every reason to believe it is correct.=C2=A0 In the magazine bu= siness it is a routine business practice to have actual publication occur mon= ths prior to the "cover date" the publisher places on the magazine.=C2=A0 The= reason for this is so that the magazines could remain on the newsstands for = at least a few months without appearing to be stale.=C2=A0 This is particular= ly the case with magazines published on a monthly cadence. Just as a check, I looked up the publication date of the January 1975 issue o= f Playboy.=C2=A0 According to the copyright registration, it was November 20,= 1974. > Date: Mon, 6 May 2024 01:27:28 +0000 (UTC) > From: ED SHARPE > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 50th birthday... > To:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Cc: Sellam Abraham > Message-ID: <1726519925.3966543.1714958848839(a)mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 >=20 > Perhaps After doing the layout work in the November=C2=A0 it was perhaps > copyrighted Immediately during layout But it did not ship Until January > Think!=C2=A0 back in those days things did not instantly happen and we're i= nstantly > shipped Ed# >=20 > Sent from AOL on Android >=20 >=C2=A0 On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:09 AM, Sellam Abraham via > cctalk wrote:=C2=A0 On Fri, May 3, 2024, 1:28=E2= =80=AFAM Smith, > Wayne via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > I looked up the Jan. 1975 issue of Popular Electronics in the > > Copyright Office's Periodicals Digest.=C2=A0 It was published on Nov. 19, > > 1974 if you are looking for an actual anniversary date. > > >=20 > The January issue was certainly not available in November of 1974. >=20 > When did it actually get sent out and start showing up in people's mailboxe= s? >=20 > Sellam >=20 =20 --===============8357216738015543883==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue May 7 07:12:38 2024 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 00:12:20 -0700 Message-ID: <209B2FB7-145D-48A7-AF78-3D2F0EA10665@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0887505395016918923==" --===============0887505395016918923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That would just about break my piggy bank, and it wouldn=E2=80=99t even fit t= he connector on the back of the machine. :( Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 6, 2024, at 9:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 5/6/24 2116, Don R wrote: >> =EF=BB=BFMaybe I need one of these power cords for my Monroe-Litton 1830 a= ka Compucorp 485. It might make the calculations more precise? ;) >=20 > That's the economy version. If you're *really* serious, you'll grab > this one (on sale: 6% off!): >=20 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/116042610200 >=20 > --Chuck >=20 --===============0887505395016918923==-- From chrise@pobox.com Tue May 7 15:28:33 2024 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 10:28:22 -0500 Message-ID: <20240507152822.GY2318@n0jcf.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3609144795238312023==" --===============3609144795238312023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday (05/06/2024 at 06:58PM -0700), Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Ignorant question: > > Q: When looking for current availability of bulk tape/disk demagnetizers, on > eBay, I ran into a lot of CD/DVD demagnetizers > What kind of a problem do they have with magnetism? I think you can also fix this problem by coloring around the outer edge of the disc with a green magic marker. Has to be green though. Chris -- Chris Elmquist --===============3609144795238312023==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Tue May 7 16:49:00 2024 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 11:29:57 -0500 Message-ID: <20240507164856.3DE428D43A@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6759890602452798517==" --===============6759890602452798517== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 09:52 PM 5/1/2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >In the early days of the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga, (and I may have the t= wo reversed in the following anecdote), Atari had a nice display of a bouncin= g checkered beach ball. Amiga had almost nothing. >But, the second day, everybody except the booth bimbos at Commodore looked h= aggard, but their machine was showing a bouncing checkered beach ball. And it= was bouncing faster than Atari's! Yes, you have them mixed up. Amiga had the bouncing beach ball, with sound. Atari had nothing. - John --===============6759890602452798517==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue May 7 17:16:18 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 12:15:47 -0500 Message-ID: <1269478115.2193801.1715102147803@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <20240507152822.GY2318@n0jcf.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1644210538088747196==" --===============1644210538088747196== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable my ears would never be good enough to notice any difference.... For what it's worth: First, in general, there are so many apparent reviews of so many products, it= is hard to believe they are all scams. How can there be enough fools to buy= enough of those products to have that many different ones? I mean, it takes= a lot of work to develop a product, if you only sell 5, it is not worth it. = if you take money and don't send anything,t hat would show up in a google se= arch. also, what some hinted at is the issue is even a very slight amount of magnit= sm, spinning very fast, could affect the signal in the playback head.... Do CDs and DVDs have parity and or checksums? If you grab a CD twice, will b= oth results be identical bit for bit? =20 https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/cd-dvd-demagnetization/ https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/if-you-have-a-cd-player-you-need-to-do= -this-periodically At first, this SEEMS even more ludicrous, demagnetizing vinyl LPs, but the pi= ckup heads are analogue magnetic, so maybe more reasonable . https://www.canadianhifi.com/shop/analog/accessories/furutech-demag-a-lp-cd-c= able-demagnetizer/ If my email for him still works, I have asked a relative that use to make a t= hen over $1000 (1970s?) crossover for subwoofers (50hz?) for the audiophile m= arket. Just the crossover (signal separator), not the amp needed after that. 
--Carey
> =20 > On Monday (05/06/2024 at 06:58PM -0700), Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Ignorant question: > >=20 > > Q: When looking for current availability of bulk tape/disk demagnetizers,= on > > eBay, I ran into a lot of CD/DVD demagnetizers > > What kind of a problem do they have with magnetism? > --===============1644210538088747196==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue May 7 17:20:41 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 17:20:31 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1269478115.2193801.1715102147803@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0412386551150010485==" --===============0412386551150010485== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > First, in general, there are so many apparent reviews of so many products, = it is hard to believe they are all scams. How can there be enough fools to bu= y enough of those products to have that many different ones? I see you're new to the intersection of the audiophile world and online selli= ng :P Pretty much all of that stuff is "dubious at best" nonsense. We used to get p= rint magazines/catalogs for that junk at ITI Audio/Sontec. Demagnetizing CDs and DVDs is up there with the special offbrand Sharpie mark= er for coloring the edges of the disc to reduce...whatever it didn't actually= reduce. Thanks, Jonathan --===============0412386551150010485==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 7 17:21:16 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 10:20:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8958797641006783558==" --===============8958797641006783558== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 2:48=E2=80=AFPM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > I failed _O_ level mathematics, and to get onto a science degree > course, I had to do another 6 months of remedial maths just to get me > through the exam. To be told "easy if you did the A level" would have > made me angrily walk out in disgust if it wasn't a mandatory course. > I sucked at math pretty much throughout school. I took first level Calculus three times before I finally got my mind wrapped around the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus (with a little help from LSD in showing me infinity). However, it never prevented me from writing rather involved and complicated computer programs starting in my teen years. For college, I decided I was either going to get into MIT or not go at all, and when I was told that my math grades would not cut it to get into MIT, well then that settled it. I somehow managed to be successful in spite. Thus proving to be complete horseshit all the educators that said if you want to get into a computer career you must be good at math. That worked. It took me a weekend and was no direct use because at the > end of about 32-33 hours of work, I could do a chi-squared test by > hand. So, indirectly, it achieved its purpose. > Very nice. By implementing the algorithm in the computer it planted it in your mind. Great story to illustrate how great a mind-building tool the computer and programming is. It could be said that my math skills were really lacking in the area of logic, in that I did pretty OK in Algebra 1 and 2, but barely passed Geometry as I could never get proofs right, and I ended up with a D in Trigonometry (but there were extenuating circumstances with that). It could have been because I hated homework and studying and Geometry and Trig stuff requires a lot of memorization. But I noticed that when I started going back to school in my 30s towards earning a degree my years of programming had structured my mind to where I could break down problems into little steps and then solve each individually until I arrived at the final answer, much like how one writes a computer program. About a dozen years ago I took up law as a "hobby" and threw myself into that. It turns out programming and law share very similar constructs: a pleading is like a program; the rules of court are the syntax of the basic "programming language" in which the pleading is written; case law are like library calls; and the court is the computer. You submit your program/pleading to the computer/court and it runs...or not, and crashes. And just like a computer, I started to figure out ways that the court can be hacked ;) Anyway, I noticed that when I went back to recreational 6502 programming a few years ago, not only did everything come back to me relatively quickly from my teens, but I found that I was just much better at assembling code, which I attribute to my law hobby. It then began to seem that my practice of law got better after I spent long periods writing 6502 code. Each lent themselves towards helping me get better at the other. It was awesome synergy. But the point is: not everyone can do "high school algebra." I do not > know what age "high school" means to you but very basic secondary > school algebra was _extremely_ hard for me and took years of real work > to master. > ... > "It's as easy as algebra" is reinforcing my point about this stuff > _not_ being easy, natural, obvious, helpful, convenient, clear, > meaningful or useful for most people. > I think it has more to do with just learning the construct, or the language, of the subject. Once you get over that hump, one's basic intelligence then fills in. Every subject has its particular jargon and principles, and having basic competency in that subject is really in memorizing the jargon and principles so you can properly "speak in the language" of the subject. > I wrote an article about 3 new BASIC releases for its 60th anniversary: > https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/03/basic_60th_birthday/ > > Do go read the first comment. > > It shows how BASIC was immediately apprehensible and memorable in a > way that APL never would be. > It was hard going back to BASIC programming after programming in C and other higher level languages for some many years, but once I got back into it (Applesoft specifically) and remembered all the structured programming techniques my high school computer science teacher forced us to learn, and then applied my years of subsequent experience in crafting and organizing programs, the limitations became easy to overcome. It's fun to overcome the limitations of a simple language and still make a good program, and where I need some specific functionally I desire, Applesoft is extensible through the & "command", which is more of a machine language bridge in that the BASIC interpreter will jump to a user-definable vector at which you put your custom token interpretation code. For example, I made an entire low resolution graphics library that supports sprites and background animation with masking and other advanced features and implemented it by re-purposing existing BASIC command tokens for speed of processing. Yeah, I'm an adult, enjoying programming in BASIC, but it's fun. Those versed in APL would just as readily apprehend and remember an APL program, same as those versed in BASIC. But for one who never did any sort of programming, it's probably all Greek to them. (My apologies to the Greeks.) Sellam --===============8958797641006783558==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 7 17:30:59 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 10:30:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CPLWnShU=5FjVJFZSYNDELmMNWPKpIgPoXrHhaP=5F-tI-dazll?= =?utf-8?q?sx3OKYgUhMzF3VlOaH249kx-q9QPUh7fhFC2zsw1WywNzzIrV=5FG3nKdDZOSHU?= =?utf-8?q?=3D=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8386903591058615546==" --===============8386903591058615546== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 10:20 AM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > First, in general, there are so many apparent reviews of so many > products, it is hard to believe they are all scams. How can there be enough > fools to buy enough of those products to have that many different ones? > > I see you're new to the intersection of the audiophile world and online > selling :P > Belief is an incredible force. As it has been said (and as I have come to discover again and again in my dealings with humans): it's easier to fool someone than to explain to them that they've been fooled. Or as Markus Twainius put it: "How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and hard it is to undo that work again!" Sellam --===============8386903591058615546==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue May 7 17:32:09 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 13:31:59 -0400 Message-ID: <62870B21-A998-4B20-9781-8C9735AA47E6@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0354479135540117222==" --===============0354479135540117222== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 7, 2024, at 1:20 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > ... > Thus proving to > be complete horseshit all the educators that said if you want to get into a > computer career you must be good at math. Indeed. One of the most amazing programmers I ever worked with was a graduate of the = Berklee School of Music. And two other quite competent computer people I kno= w had Conservatory of Music degrees in piano performance. (Then again, I had a classmate who was taking a double major: math and music = composition...) paul --===============0354479135540117222==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Tue May 7 17:39:22 2024 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 13:39:15 -0400 Message-ID: <338dc5d3-1741-428c-b956-e68a5bad4cb5@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: <20240507164856.3DE428D43A@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2392165410602425750==" --===============2392165410602425750== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-05-07 12:29, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 09:52 PM 5/1/2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> In the early days of the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga, (and I may have the= two reversed in the following anecdote), Atari had a nice display of a bounc= ing checkered beach ball. Amiga had almost nothing. >> But, the second day, everybody except the booth bimbos at Commodore looked= haggard, but their machine was showing a bouncing checkered beach ball. And = it was bouncing faster than Atari's! >=20 > Yes, you have them mixed up. Amiga had the bouncing beach ball, with sound. > Atari had nothing. Than, the juggler demo on amiga came out, and nobody ever talked about=20 atari & graphics again :) https://www.reddit.com/r/amiga/comments/oqx9qr/35_years_ago_the_amiga_juggler= _demo_released_in/ http://www.etwright.org/cghist/juggler.html --===============2392165410602425750==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 7 17:51:25 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 10:51:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1269478115.2193801.1715102147803@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3621325611538233467==" --===============3621325611538233467== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The thing that many audiophiles fail to grasp is that there's a difference between listening and hearing. The fact is that I'm just as content listening to a recording of an old scratchy 78 with, say, Albert Schweitzer (yes, that guy) playing Bach on organ as the latest wunderkind flogging at the same work in surround-sound Dolbyized, whatever. I hear what AS was trying to say--he could have recorded the stuff on a steam calliope and still have gotten his point across. My take anyway--it's rather difficult to explain. --Chuck --===============3621325611538233467==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue May 7 17:52:46 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 13:52:19 -0400 Message-ID: <6C3955A4-24C8-4CC9-BAF8-93B58049BC75@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <1269478115.2193801.1715102147803@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2451495564439624740==" --===============2451495564439624740== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 7, 2024, at 1:15 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > my ears would never be good enough to notice any difference.... >=20 > For what it's worth: >=20 > First, in general, there are so many apparent reviews of so many products, = it is hard to believe they are all scams. How can there be enough fools to b= uy enough of those products to have that many different ones? I mean, it tak= es a lot of work to develop a product, if you only sell 5, it is not worth it= . if you take money and don't send anything,t hat would show up in a google = search. >=20 > also, what some hinted at is the issue is even a very slight amount of magn= itsm, spinning very fast, could affect the signal in the playback head.... A CD or DVD "demagnetizer" is by definition a scam and an utter fraud. Those= media are non-magnetic and in any case magnetism plays no role whatsoever in= reading them. Also, keep in mind that something may look like a review but it's actually a = press release, perhaps slightly warmed over. > Do CDs and DVDs have parity and or checksums? If you grab a CD twice, will= both results be identical bit for bit? =20 They go way beyond checksums, using sophisticated ECC schemes. There's a goo= d reason why a scratched disk can, in most cases, be read without trouble. I= remember reading years ago that someone showed off the CD ECC scheme by dril= ling a hole into a CD (2-3 mm or so) -- it read just fine anyway. So yes, unless the disk is damaged beyond the power of the ECC, it will read = correctly every time. And even if it does exceed the ECC, it will in most ca= ses read the same, though some bits of data will be unrecoverable. You'd hav= e to go WAY beyond the ECC limits to reach the point of undetected data error= s, i.e., a misreading of the data that the ECC doesn't catch (let alone corre= ct). That property holds for all codes, in fact. Every one of them has a set of e= rror patterns it will detect, a set it will correct, and a set it will miss. = The design challenge for codes is (a) understand the likely error patterns i= t will be confronted with in the wild, (b) understand the required probabilit= ies for (1) uncorrectable and (2) undetected errors, and (c) to create a good= code that delivers on these requirements efficiently. "Efficiency" is defin= ed by coding overhead as well as implementation cost. >=20 > https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/cd-dvd-demagnetization/ >=20 > https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/if-you-have-a-cd-player-you-need-to-= do-this-periodically >=20 > At first, this SEEMS even more ludicrous, demagnetizing vinyl LPs, but the = pickup heads are analogue magnetic, so maybe more reasonable > . > https://www.canadianhifi.com/shop/analog/accessories/furutech-demag-a-lp-cd= -cable-demagnetizer/ What an amazing pile of bunk. Some years ago I was joking about the possibility that someone would sell gol= d plated fiber optic cables to suckers like that. Imagine my surprise when, = somewhat later, I spotted Monster fiber optic cables with gold-plated connect= ors. paul --===============2451495564439624740==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 7 18:00:55 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 11:00:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2698186355313255465==" --===============2698186355313255465== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 10:51 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The thing that many audiophiles fail to grasp is that there's a > difference between listening and hearing. The fact is that I'm just as > content listening to a recording of an old scratchy 78 with, say, Albert > Schweitzer (yes, that guy) playing Bach on organ as the latest > wunderkind flogging at the same work in surround-sound Dolbyized, > whatever. I hear what AS was trying to say--he could have recorded > the stuff on a steam calliope and still have gotten his point across. > > My take anyway--it's rather difficult to explain. > > --Chuck > I guess you're saying: the media is NOT the massage. Sellam --===============2698186355313255465==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 7 18:03:00 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 11:02:43 -0700 Message-ID: <1c5a8a7c-5698-4654-ba7b-d65ac99d75c4@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <62870B21-A998-4B20-9781-8C9735AA47E6@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6674236017245794418==" --===============6674236017245794418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/7/24 10:31, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On May 7, 2024, at 1:20 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> Thus proving to >> be complete horseshit all the educators that said if you want to get into a >> computer career you must be good at math. >=20 > Indeed. That is, or at least wasn't uncommon at all. 50 years ago, the guy in the cube across from mine would take 3 months off to go to Vegas and play trombone. The guy immediately adjacent to my cube held a doctorate in piano from IU, but preferred to play clarinet. I have lots of anecdotes about that type of stuff. For example, an engineer chum had married a few months prior. At an informal gathering (the hostess had a stock of musical instruments and invited folks to feel free to participate), I was noodling around on the piano and the guy, who by then, was a little tipsy, sat down alongside me. He asked if he could have a turn at the ivories. Sure, I jokingly suggested that he give his rendition of the Goldberg Variations--which he promptly proceeded to do, straight through, right to the final aria--from memory. His new wife was in tears at that point. She had no inkling that he was a piano performance graduate of Juiliard who found engineering more interesting than giving piano lessons. The couple didn't even own a piano. People are strange--and interesting. --Chuck --===============6674236017245794418==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 7 18:12:39 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 11:12:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1c5a8a7c-5698-4654-ba7b-d65ac99d75c4@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5176187830747702235==" --===============5176187830747702235== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 11:03 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > People are strange--and interesting. > > --Chuck > But mostly strange :D Sellam --===============5176187830747702235==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 7 19:17:07 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saga of CP/M Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 12:16:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7146280290475246815==" --===============7146280290475246815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 6:54=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/3/24 18:30, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for > > microprocessors. > > Notable that a subset of PL/I was marketed for CP/M around 1981 or so. > > I've heard from some folks that Gary developed ISIS for Intel. That is > definitely not true. It was the work of Jim Stein and Terry Burgett. > Disk allocation was quite different from CP/M. ISIS used a list-sort of > structure, like Unix. > A weird question: do you know if Terry Burgett had a cult? Sellam --===============7146280290475246815==-- From don9030582@gmail.com Tue May 7 20:46:28 2024 From: Don To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Recordak Magnaprint Microfiche Printer Free Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 16:45:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4371734225196084526==" --===============4371734225196084526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I have a Recordak Magnaprint microfiche printer/reader. It appears to be in decent cosmetic condition but I am not sure if it works or if it is complete. This thing used photosensitized paper and some kind of developer to make positive copies of microfiche reels or sheets. https://archive.org/details/TNM_Recordak_Magnaprint_Reader_microfilm_reader-p= _20171102_0036 I don't have space to keep this thing, but I would like to save it from being scrapped if possible. Free for pickup near Buffalo, NY. Contact me if interested! Don --===============4371734225196084526==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 7 22:21:46 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 15:21:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1269478115.2193801.1715102147803@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2494321948965623273==" --===============2494321948965623273== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How difficult is it to measure and compare "With/Without" signals? Even if the signals are not identical when "grabbed twice", it should be=20 possible to statistically evaluate and compare how clean the signals are. . . . and therefore, to what extent the "improvement" is a placebo effect. And/or, select a large sample of listeners, and have them rate the signals=20 multiple times, without knowing which signal they are listening to. That=20 would call for having many multiple players, since the device purports to=20 "repair" the player. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Tue, 7 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > my ears would never be good enough to notice any difference.... > > For what it's worth: > > First, in general, there are so many apparent reviews of so many products, = it is hard to believe they are all scams. How can there be enough fools to b= uy enough of those products to have that many different ones? I mean, it tak= es a lot of work to develop a product, if you only sell 5, it is not worth it= . if you take money and don't send anything,t hat would show up in a google = search. > > also, what some hinted at is the issue is even a very slight amount of magn= itsm, spinning very fast, could affect the signal in the playback head.... > > Do CDs and DVDs have parity and or checksums? If you grab a CD twice, will= both results be identical bit for bit? > > https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/cd-dvd-demagnetization/ > > https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/if-you-have-a-cd-player-you-need-to-= do-this-periodically > > At first, this SEEMS even more ludicrous, demagnetizing vinyl LPs, but the = pickup heads are analogue magnetic, so maybe more reasonable > . > https://www.canadianhifi.com/shop/analog/accessories/furutech-demag-a-lp-cd= -cable-demagnetizer/ > > If my email for him still works, I have asked a relative that use to make a= then over $1000 (1970s?) crossover for subwoofers (50hz?) for the audiophile= market. Just the crossover (signal separator), not the amp needed after tha= t. > > 
--Carey
> >> >> On Monday (05/06/2024 at 06:58PM -0700), Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Ignorant question: >>> >>> Q: When looking for current availability of bulk tape/disk demagnetizers,= on >>> eBay, I ran into a lot of CD/DVD demagnetizers >>> What kind of a problem do they have with magnetism? --===============2494321948965623273==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 7 23:51:36 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 16:51:25 -0700 Message-ID: <4d4b4525-c6c6-488e-8387-28029b619a40@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3857816914623477949==" --===============3857816914623477949== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/7/24 15:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How difficult is it to measure and compare "With/Without" signals? > If you peruse the old Bob Pease articles on "Electronic Design" magazine, I believe more than once, he alluded to a proposed "blind test"--two boxes; one filled with the latest audiophilatic super speaker cable and the other with standard lamp cord with splices. I don't believe that anyone took him up on the proposed challenge. --Chuck --===============3857816914623477949==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 8 00:49:14 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 18:49:02 -0600 Message-ID: <6a9a74ae-b1b5-415a-ab56-e097e68aadc3@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <4d4b4525-c6c6-488e-8387-28029b619a40@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8189326040401320173==" --===============8189326040401320173== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-05-07 5:51 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/7/24 15:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> How difficult is it to measure and compare "With/Without" signals? >> > > If you peruse the old Bob Pease articles on "Electronic Design" > magazine, I believe more than once, he alluded to a proposed "blind > test"--two boxes; one filled with the latest audiophilatic super speaker > cable and the other with standard lamp cord with splices. > > I don't believe that anyone took him up on the proposed challenge. > > --Chuck > Orichalcum has been rediscovered. I say use that! --===============8189326040401320173==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed May 8 01:36:35 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saga of CP/M Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 20:36:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6980633204657931035==" --===============6980633204657931035== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Grumpy Fred, thanks for sharing your story and honored to be around those who met with Gary. I recall some versions of the story was that he decided to go flying that day since he was quarreling with his wife (or that he decided to personally do that errands, just to "get out of the house" sort of thing). That could be a culture thing - what I mean is, that he didn't think it critical for IBM to make their decision THAT day. And that's the other rumors to the story: that IBM did try to follow up in days or weeks that follow. We'll probably never know the exact truth of things - except that I do think everyone generally agrees that at least Bill Gates did TRY to give CP/M a chance, which is somewhat admirable (in acknowledging that "if you want the best, this is the guy you need to talk to"). The autobiography of Paul Allen, he claims he strongly nudged Gates into looking into QDOS. And for me, I'm convinced Tim do sufficient independent work to make QDOS. But I'm baffled - CP/M was always "just" a 64K OS. Meaning QDOS/PC/MS-DOS, to its credit, tackled the banking challenge - that is, from a software developers perspective, you could allocate 250,000 bytes (if the system had RAM) and the OS managed the up-to-10 segments for you rather seamlessly. I never actually actively used CP/M myself, but my understanding is in all the systems you find it on - like even the OSBORNE-1, they are 64K systems. (the later concurrent and DR-DOS obviously tackled that - by 1990 I was fully onboard with DR-DOS, it really was better for a few years there than MS-DOS) -SteveL (v*) On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 8:30=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for > microprocessors. > > CP/M was also briefly called "Control Program and Monitor" > It was written by Gary Kildall. (May 19, 1942 - july 11, 1994) > > Gary taught at Navy Postgraduate School in Monterey. > He took a break in 1972, to complete his PhD at University of Washington. > > He wrote 8008 and 8080 instruction set simulators for Intel, and they > loaned > him hardware. > > In 1973? he wrote CP/M. > He offered it to Intel, but they didn't want it, although they marketed > the > PL/M. > > He and his wife started "Intergalactic Digital Research" in Pacific Grove. > Later renamed "Digital Research, Inc." > > CP/M rapidly became a defacto standard as operating system for 8080 and > later > Z80 computers. > > In the late 1970s, when CP/M computers were available with 5.25" drives, > and > there were hundreds, soon thousands of different formats, I chatted with > Gary, > and pleaded with him ot create a "standard" format for 5.25". > His response was a very polite, "The standard format for CP/M is 8 inch > single > sided single density." > I pointed out that formats were proliferating excessively. > His response was a very polite, "I understand. Sorry, but the standard > format > for CP/M is 8 inch single sided single density." > > > In 1980? IBM was developing a personal computer. (y'all have heard of it) > One > of the IBM people had a Microsoft Softcard (Z80 plus CP/M) in his Apple. > IBM > went to Microsoft, to negotiate BASIC for the new machine, and CP/M. > > Bill Gates explained and sent them to Digital Research. > > When the IBM representatives arrived, Gary was flying his plane up to > Oakland > to visit Bill Godbout. He hadn't seen a need to be present, and assumed > that > Dorothy would take care of the [presumably completely routine] paperwork. > While > visiting Bill godbout, and delivering some software was important, it WAS > something that a low level courier could have done. > > > There was a little bit of a culture clash. > The IBM people were all in identical blue suits. > The DR people were in sandals, barefoot, shorts, t-shirts, braless women, > with > bicycles, surfboard, plants and even cats in the office, > > The IBM people demanded a signed non=3Ddisclosure ageement before talking. > Dorothy Kildall refused. > > When Dorothy got Gary on the phone, it is unreliably reported that he > said, > "well, let them sit on the couch and wait their turn like the rest of the > customers." > > It is also been said that DR people upstairs saw the IBM people marching > up, > and thought that it was a drug raid. I have stood in that bay window > overlooking the front door, and can believe that. > > IBM chose to not do business with DR and went back to Microsoft. > When billg was unable to convince them that Microsoft was not in the > operating > system business, Microsoft went into the operating system business. They > bought an unlimited license to QDOS (Tim Paterson's work at Seattle > Computer > Products). They also hired Tim Paterson. > > DR was working on CP/M-86, but it was a ways off. > Paterson had written QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") as a > placeholder > to be able to continue development while waiting for CP/M-86 > We've mentioned before, that Tim Paterson got the idea for the directory > structure from Microsoft Standalone BASIC. As Chuck pointed out, that was > not > a new invention, merely a choice of which way to do it. > > billg knew how to deal with officious managers. It is unreliably said > that he > told the Microsoft people, "Everybody who does not own a suit, stay home > tomorrow!" > > IBM insisted that Micorsoft beef up security. window shades, locks on > doors > that normally weren't, locks on file cabinets, etc. > It is unreliably said that to throw off anyboy who heard about it, that > Microsoft referred to the IBm project as "Project Commodore" > > > > dr continued to sell CP/M. > When the 5150/:PC was ready, IBM announced it with PC-DOS, which was a > renaming > of MS-DOS,renaming 86-DOS, renaming QDOS. > > If I recall correctly theprice was $40 (or maybe $60?) > > > DR pointed out that NS-DOS was extremely similar to CP/M. > > https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~johnsojr/2012-13/fall/cs370/resources/An%20Insid= e%20Look%20at%20MS-DOS.pdf > IBM didn't consider it a problem, andsimply offered to ALSO sell CP/M-86, > particularly since they were already also marketing UCSD P-System. > > CP/M-86 was not available yet, so everybody buying a disk based PC bought > PC-DOS. > But, most of us assumed thata CP/M-86 would become the standard once it > came > out, and PC-DOS was similar and let us use the machines while waiting. > > CP/M-86 took a long time to come out (6 months is a LONG time in such > things). > When it did, the price was $240. > There are disagreemnets about whether DR or IBM had set the price point. > > Most decided to keep using Pc-DOs until CP/M-86 had caught on. > But with the price differential, and the lead, PC-DOS remained the > standard. > > > dr continued, came out with MP/M-86, and eventually came out with > "Concurrent > DOS", and "DR-DOS", which was based on MS-DOS. > Microsoft could not fault somebody for copying them, when it was the ones > that > they had copied. > No, Microsoft could certainly not claim trademark status for "DOS"! > In fact, although Microsoft trademarkd "MS-DOS", IBM did NOT trademark > PC-DOS, > saying that it just meant Personal Compter Disk Operating System, which is > a > description, not a unique name. In 1987, I visited the Patent and > Trademark > Office outside of Washington, DC, and personally confirmed that in their > stacks. > > Many people have said that blowing off IBM was the stupidest move in the > history of stupid moves. > Other people insist that blowing off IBM was the BRAVEST move in history. > > > A lot of people gave Gary flack about it. > eventually, he bagan drinking. > > On July 8, 1994, Gary fell and hit his head. It is unclear whether that > was > during an altercation. (A lot of people fall during bar brawls) It was > at the > Franklin Street biker Bar & Grill, Investigation as a potential homicide > was > inconclusive. > > > About 10 years ago, I was in Pacific Grove, and visited the DR house on > Lighthouse street. An extremely hospitable fellow had recently bought it > in a > foreclosure sale. At the time that he bought it, he was unaware of the > historical significance. He let me wander through the whole place, > looking out > the upstairs window at the walkway, etc. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============6980633204657931035==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 8 01:59:12 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saga of CP/M Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 18:59:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4737539953781889628==" --===============4737539953781889628== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim Paterson's article "Inside Look At MS-DOS" is a good read. The original intent of QDOS was as a quick and dirty temporary substitute=20 to use while waiting for CP/M-86. Tim assumed that CP/M-86 would be as upwards compatible as possible with=20 CP/M. But, there were a substantial number of things that needed to be=20 done differently, including, as you mentioned, memory management,=20 Interrupt Vector Table, etc. But, Paterson deliberately matched the API so that programs developed with=20 QDOS would need as little as possible patching to run under CP/M-86. I believe that he did NOT copy any code from CP/M. Under modern "look and feel" interpretation of copyright, it would be=20 infringing, just like Adam Osborne's "Paperback Software" spreadsheet was=20 deliberately an exact match for Lotus 123 menus and commands. At the time=20 that Paterson wrote QDOS, it was perfectly legal to make a program that=20 mimiced another program, so long as the code wasn't copied. Hence, the=20 various puckman clones, and compatible BIOS's. I barely met Gary, and never got a chance to get to know him. My chat with him about standardizing disk formats was as a stranger. I had a friend who knew him, who told me about Gary's depression and=20 drinking. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Tue, 7 May 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Hey Grumpy Fred, thanks for sharing your story and honored to be around > those who met with Gary. I recall some versions of the story was that he > decided to go flying that day since he was quarreling with his wife (or > that he decided to personally do that errands, just to "get out of the > house" sort of thing). That could be a culture thing - what I mean is, > that he didn't think it critical for IBM to make their decision THAT day. > And that's the other rumors to the story: that IBM did try to follow up in > days or weeks that follow. We'll probably never know the exact truth of > things - except that I do think everyone generally agrees that at least > Bill Gates did TRY to give CP/M a chance, which is somewhat admirable (in > acknowledging that "if you want the best, this is the guy you need to talk > to"). The autobiography of Paul Allen, he claims he strongly nudged Gates > into looking into QDOS. And for me, I'm convinced Tim do sufficient > independent work to make QDOS. But I'm baffled - CP/M was always "just" > a 64K OS. Meaning QDOS/PC/MS-DOS, to its credit, tackled the banking > challenge - that is, from a software developers perspective, you could > allocate 250,000 bytes (if the system had RAM) and the OS managed the > up-to-10 segments for you rather seamlessly. I never actually actively > used CP/M myself, but my understanding is in all the systems you find it on > - like even the OSBORNE-1, they are 64K systems. (the later concurrent > and DR-DOS obviously tackled that - by 1990 I was fully onboard with > DR-DOS, it really was better for a few years there than MS-DOS) > > -SteveL (v*) > > > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 8:30=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for >> microprocessors. >> >> CP/M was also briefly called "Control Program and Monitor" >> It was written by Gary Kildall. (May 19, 1942 - july 11, 1994) >> >> Gary taught at Navy Postgraduate School in Monterey. >> He took a break in 1972, to complete his PhD at University of Washington. >> >> He wrote 8008 and 8080 instruction set simulators for Intel, and they >> loaned >> him hardware. >> >> In 1973? he wrote CP/M. >> He offered it to Intel, but they didn't want it, although they marketed >> the >> PL/M. >> >> He and his wife started "Intergalactic Digital Research" in Pacific Grove. >> Later renamed "Digital Research, Inc." >> >> CP/M rapidly became a defacto standard as operating system for 8080 and >> later >> Z80 computers. >> >> In the late 1970s, when CP/M computers were available with 5.25" drives, >> and >> there were hundreds, soon thousands of different formats, I chatted with >> Gary, >> and pleaded with him ot create a "standard" format for 5.25". >> His response was a very polite, "The standard format for CP/M is 8 inch >> single >> sided single density." >> I pointed out that formats were proliferating excessively. >> His response was a very polite, "I understand. Sorry, but the standard >> format >> for CP/M is 8 inch single sided single density." >> >> >> In 1980? IBM was developing a personal computer. (y'all have heard of it) >> One >> of the IBM people had a Microsoft Softcard (Z80 plus CP/M) in his Apple. >> IBM >> went to Microsoft, to negotiate BASIC for the new machine, and CP/M. >> >> Bill Gates explained and sent them to Digital Research. >> >> When the IBM representatives arrived, Gary was flying his plane up to >> Oakland >> to visit Bill Godbout. He hadn't seen a need to be present, and assumed >> that >> Dorothy would take care of the [presumably completely routine] paperwork. >> While >> visiting Bill godbout, and delivering some software was important, it WAS >> something that a low level courier could have done. >> >> >> There was a little bit of a culture clash. >> The IBM people were all in identical blue suits. >> The DR people were in sandals, barefoot, shorts, t-shirts, braless women, >> with >> bicycles, surfboard, plants and even cats in the office, >> >> The IBM people demanded a signed non=3Ddisclosure ageement before talking. >> Dorothy Kildall refused. >> >> When Dorothy got Gary on the phone, it is unreliably reported that he >> said, >> "well, let them sit on the couch and wait their turn like the rest of the >> customers." >> >> It is also been said that DR people upstairs saw the IBM people marching >> up, >> and thought that it was a drug raid. I have stood in that bay window >> overlooking the front door, and can believe that. >> >> IBM chose to not do business with DR and went back to Microsoft. >> When billg was unable to convince them that Microsoft was not in the >> operating >> system business, Microsoft went into the operating system business. They >> bought an unlimited license to QDOS (Tim Paterson's work at Seattle >> Computer >> Products). They also hired Tim Paterson. >> >> DR was working on CP/M-86, but it was a ways off. >> Paterson had written QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") as a >> placeholder >> to be able to continue development while waiting for CP/M-86 >> We've mentioned before, that Tim Paterson got the idea for the directory >> structure from Microsoft Standalone BASIC. As Chuck pointed out, that was >> not >> a new invention, merely a choice of which way to do it. >> >> billg knew how to deal with officious managers. It is unreliably said >> that he >> told the Microsoft people, "Everybody who does not own a suit, stay home >> tomorrow!" >> >> IBM insisted that Micorsoft beef up security. window shades, locks on >> doors >> that normally weren't, locks on file cabinets, etc. >> It is unreliably said that to throw off anyboy who heard about it, that >> Microsoft referred to the IBm project as "Project Commodore" >> >> >> >> dr continued to sell CP/M. >> When the 5150/:PC was ready, IBM announced it with PC-DOS, which was a >> renaming >> of MS-DOS,renaming 86-DOS, renaming QDOS. >> >> If I recall correctly theprice was $40 (or maybe $60?) >> >> >> DR pointed out that NS-DOS was extremely similar to CP/M. >> >> https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~johnsojr/2012-13/fall/cs370/resources/An%20Insi= de%20Look%20at%20MS-DOS.pdf >> IBM didn't consider it a problem, andsimply offered to ALSO sell CP/M-86, >> particularly since they were already also marketing UCSD P-System. >> >> CP/M-86 was not available yet, so everybody buying a disk based PC bought >> PC-DOS. >> But, most of us assumed thata CP/M-86 would become the standard once it >> came >> out, and PC-DOS was similar and let us use the machines while waiting. >> >> CP/M-86 took a long time to come out (6 months is a LONG time in such >> things). >> When it did, the price was $240. >> There are disagreemnets about whether DR or IBM had set the price point. >> >> Most decided to keep using Pc-DOs until CP/M-86 had caught on. >> But with the price differential, and the lead, PC-DOS remained the >> standard. >> >> >> dr continued, came out with MP/M-86, and eventually came out with >> "Concurrent >> DOS", and "DR-DOS", which was based on MS-DOS. >> Microsoft could not fault somebody for copying them, when it was the ones >> that >> they had copied. >> No, Microsoft could certainly not claim trademark status for "DOS"! >> In fact, although Microsoft trademarkd "MS-DOS", IBM did NOT trademark >> PC-DOS, >> saying that it just meant Personal Compter Disk Operating System, which is >> a >> description, not a unique name. In 1987, I visited the Patent and >> Trademark >> Office outside of Washington, DC, and personally confirmed that in their >> stacks. >> >> Many people have said that blowing off IBM was the stupidest move in the >> history of stupid moves. >> Other people insist that blowing off IBM was the BRAVEST move in history. >> >> >> A lot of people gave Gary flack about it. >> eventually, he bagan drinking. >> >> On July 8, 1994, Gary fell and hit his head. It is unclear whether that >> was >> during an altercation. (A lot of people fall during bar brawls) It was >> at the >> Franklin Street biker Bar & Grill, Investigation as a potential homicide >> was >> inconclusive. >> >> >> About 10 years ago, I was in Pacific Grove, and visited the DR house on >> Lighthouse street. An extremely hospitable fellow had recently bought it >> in a >> foreclosure sale. At the time that he bought it, he was unaware of the >> historical significance. He let me wander through the whole place, >> looking out >> the upstairs window at the walkway, etc. >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4737539953781889628==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed May 8 02:52:18 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saga of CP/M Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 19:52:11 -0700 Message-ID: <011901daa0f2$ba990050$2fcb00f0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0597194167904035195==" --===============0597194167904035195== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Tim Paterson's article "Inside Look At MS-DOS" is a good read. >=20 A good history and overview of DR including interviews from some of the main = players by the "Computer Chronicles": https://youtu.be/bLVbSjDq0DE -Ali --===============0597194167904035195==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 8 03:47:58 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saga of CP/M Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 20:47:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <011901daa0f2$ba990050$2fcb00f0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1128987755193431478==" --===============1128987755193431478== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Tim Paterson's article "Inside Look At MS-DOS" is a good read. On Tue, 7 May 2024, Ali wrote: > A good history and overview of DR including interviews from some of the mai= n players by the "Computer Chronicles": > https://youtu.be/bLVbSjDq0DE It's good. When that episode was first broadcast by KCSM, it had good closed=20 captions. My VHS copy is long lost. The Youtube auto-generated captions are much better than they once were,=20 but still not quite there. Nevertheless, now good enough to follow along. "das" is DOS b das BDOS VRI DRI Kary Gary, see PM CP/M Bill gob out Bill Godbout PC does PC-DOS kudos QDOS I be M IBM killed L Kildall Carrie Gary Chip A Cheifet etc. The price differential was NOT that much of a surprise, andwas not=20 entiirely IBM's decision. AND, not mentioned, MS-DOS was out for 6 months before CP/M-86 finally=20 became available! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1128987755193431478==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed May 8 03:53:30 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 04:53:14 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4d4b4525-c6c6-488e-8387-28029b619a40@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1569615148152250397==" --===============1569615148152250397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 12:51 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/7/24 15:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > How difficult is it to measure and compare "With/Without" signals? > > > > If you peruse the old Bob Pease articles on "Electronic Design" > magazine, I believe more than once, he alluded to a proposed "blind > test"--two boxes; one filled with the latest audiophilatic super speaker > cable and the other with standard lamp cord with splices. > > I don't believe that anyone took him up on the proposed challenge. There is a UK audio manufacturer which produces equipment under the name 'QUAD'. Their products are based on electronic engineering, not magic, They make amplifiers and also one of the few full-range electrostatic loudspeaker units. Anyway, some of their engineers were setting up for an exhibition/demonstration when they realised they'd forgotten to bring any speaker cable. No problem, one of them goes to the local 'DIY Shed' (large hardware store) and buys some normal mains cable[1]. They use this and not surprisingly it sounds great. [1] Apparently there's a slogan on the wall of the QUAD workshop 'Ohm's Law rules here. Oxygen-free cable is not required' Next day, said chain of 'DIY sheds' gets a run on that mains cable. Audiophools were buying this magic speaker cable.... -tony --===============1569615148152250397==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Wed May 8 04:14:42 2024 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Recordak Magnaprint Microfiche Printer Free Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 04:14:29 +0000 Message-ID: <1323707107.94268.1715141669838@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3164269026821175207==" --===============3164269026821175207== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SMECC had similar but never=C2=A0 got much microfilm so were sent to=C2=A0 hi= storical society=C2=A0 to use on Reels=C2=A0 of news paper microfilm. Heh cle= ared=C2=A0 a bit counter space=C2=A0 30 years ago!---'the liquid was same as = the old wet type copiers used.=C2=A0Is this pr the paper media available=C2= =A0 still?=C2=A0 Not sure... but not many exist anymore.The one in that broch= ure is the classic model and that brand is an innovator.=C2=A0 Ours was a generic looking thing and no where classy as the brochure model. A= nd that=C2=A0 company was THE innovator I think of that tech=C2=A0 YEA=C2=A0 FIND=C2=A0 SOME WHERE TO SAVE IT! Ed#=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SMECC Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 1:46 PM, Don via cctalk wro= te: Hello all, I have a Recordak Magnaprint microfiche printer/reader. It appears to be in decent cosmetic condition but I am not sure if it works or if it is complete. This thing used photosensitized paper and some kind of developer to make positive copies of microfiche reels or sheets. https://archive.org/details/TNM_Recordak_Magnaprint_Reader_microfilm_reader-p= _20171102_0036 I don't have space to keep this thing, but I would like to save it from being scrapped if possible. Free for pickup near Buffalo, NY. Contact me if interested! Don =20 --===============3164269026821175207==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 8 04:59:39 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 22:59:21 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0975997665325467181==" --===============0975997665325467181== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-05-07 9:53 p.m., Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > Anyway, some of their engineers were setting up for an > exhibition/demonstration when they realised they'd forgotten to bring > any speaker cable. No problem, one of them goes to the local 'DIY > Shed' (large hardware store) and buys some normal mains cable[1]. They > use this and not surprisingly it sounds great. > > [1] Apparently there's a slogan on the wall of the QUAD workshop > 'Ohm's Law rules here. Oxygen-free cable is not required' > > Next day, said chain of 'DIY sheds' gets a run on that mains cable. > Audiophools were buying this magic speaker cable.... > > -tony Nice story. QUAD is a bit outdated. Australa is the place for electrostatic speakers, http://www.eraudio.com.au/ --===============0975997665325467181==-- From julf@julf.com Wed May 8 06:13:30 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 08:13:20 +0200 Message-ID: <3133b074-af5f-453d-825e-8159e439964c@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3344248506063129679==" --===============3344248506063129679== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 08/05/2024 05:53, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > [1] Apparently there's a slogan on the wall of the QUAD workshop > 'Ohm's Law rules here. Oxygen-free cable is not required' That would have been back when Quad was run by Peter J. Walker who was a no-nonsense engineer. Unfortunately the company is owned by IAG Group (Shenzen, China) and has resorted to more "audiophile" oriented marketing. As to real audiophile scams, there are companies making "audiophile" ethernet switches and even special, very expensive linear power supplies for ethernet switches for those audiophiles who have switched to streaming music. Oh, and audiophile USB cables... Julf --===============3344248506063129679==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed May 8 11:56:11 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] saving old technology [was: Recordak Magnaprint Microfiche Printer Free] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 06:56:01 -0500 Message-ID: <1102750283.2210530.1715169361359@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <1323707107.94268.1715141669838@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1621298957884368353==" --===============1621298957884368353== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At a local linux meeting, the leader was disparaging any resurrection of old = technology Anybody else reminded of the science fiction story where ethereal life forms = arrive from a distant star system after receiving our first radio transmissio= ns. life that eats radio and electricity, starting with the frequencies of o= ur first transmissions, but then mutating(?) to all radio, then electricity e= ven in wires, and wiping out all communications, vehicles, etc. There is a d= esperate project to resurrect steam engines (to build other steam engines) an= d breed horses. All those steam train museums turn out to be what saves huma= nity. just now I realized..shouldn't they also consume all the light too? B= ut I guess they can't go beyond microwaves. 
--Carey
> On 05/07/2024 11:14 PM CDT ED SHARPE via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =20 > SMECC had similar but never=C2=A0 got much microfilm so were sent to=C2=A0 = historical society=C2=A0 to use on Reels=C2=A0 of news paper microfilm. Heh c= leared=C2=A0 a bit counter space=C2=A0 30 years ago!---'the liquid was same a= s the old wet type copiers used.=C2=A0Is this pr the paper media available=C2= =A0 still?=C2=A0 Not sure... but not many exist anymore.The one in that broch= ure is the classic model and that brand is an innovator.=C2=A0 > Ours was a generic looking thing and no where classy as the brochure model.= And that=C2=A0 company was THE innovator I think of that tech=C2=A0 > YEA=C2=A0 FIND=C2=A0 SOME WHERE TO SAVE IT! > Ed#=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SMECC > --===============1621298957884368353==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed May 8 12:58:54 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: saving old technology [was: Recordak Magnaprint Microfiche Printer Free] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 08:58:46 -0400 Message-ID: <5CA85555-3788-43DD-BE7A-3C70CBAE7682@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <1102750283.2210530.1715169361359@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3320934948808531772==" --===============3320934948808531772== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 8, 2024, at 7:56 AM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > At a local linux meeting, the leader was disparaging any resurrection of ol= d technology >=20 > Anybody else reminded of the science fiction story where ethereal life form= s arrive from a distant star system after receiving our first radio transmiss= ions. life that eats radio and electricity, starting with the frequencies of= our first transmissions, but then mutating(?) to all radio, then electricity= even in wires, and wiping out all communications, vehicles, etc. There is a= desperate project to resurrect steam engines (to build other steam engines) = and breed horses. All those steam train museums turn out to be what saves hu= manity. just now I realized..shouldn't they also consume all the light too? = But I guess they can't go beyond microwaves. "The Waveries" by Fredric Brown, 1945. Never mind the bit about light; the a= uthor missed the fact that Diesel engines don't need electricity, and also th= e fact that thunder can't happen without lightning. paul --===============3320934948808531772==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed May 8 13:01:08 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: saving old technology [was: Recordak Magnaprint Microfiche Printer Free] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 09:00:57 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1102750283.2210530.1715169361359@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4263828442083972292==" --===============4263828442083972292== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 8, 2024, at 7:56 AM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > At a local linux meeting, the leader was disparaging any resurrection of ol= d technology >=20 > Anybody else reminded of the science fiction story where ethereal life form= s arrive from a distant star system after receiving our first radio transmiss= ions. ... An entirely different story but also much about preserving technology is "Luc= ifer's Hammer" by Niven & Pournelle. It's the reason I have the two-volume s= et of "The Way Things Work" on my bookshelf. paul --===============4263828442083972292==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Wed May 8 13:38:15 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: saving old technology [was: Recordak Magnaprint Microfiche Printer Free] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 09:38:07 -0400 Message-ID: <8932210E-B621-4387-A03E-04E6591E8136@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5CA85555-3788-43DD-BE7A-3C70CBAE7682@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0366526910862122136==" --===============0366526910862122136== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Most modern Diesel engines use a common-rail electronically controlled inject= ion system. > On May 8, 2024, at 8:58 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On May 8, 2024, at 7:56 AM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> At a local linux meeting, the leader was disparaging any resurrection of o= ld technology >>=20 >> Anybody else reminded of the science fiction story where ethereal life for= ms arrive from a distant star system after receiving our first radio transmis= sions. life that eats radio and electricity, starting with the frequencies o= f our first transmissions, but then mutating(?) to all radio, then electricit= y even in wires, and wiping out all communications, vehicles, etc. There is = a desperate project to resurrect steam engines (to build other steam engines)= and breed horses. All those steam train museums turn out to be what saves h= umanity. just now I realized..shouldn't they also consume all the light too?= But I guess they can't go beyond microwaves. >=20 > "The Waveries" by Fredric Brown, 1945. Never mind the bit about light; the= author missed the fact that Diesel engines don't need electricity, and also = the fact that thunder can't happen without lightning. >=20 > paul >=20 --===============0366526910862122136==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed May 8 13:57:22 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: saving old technology [was: Recordak Magnaprint Microfiche Printer Free] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 09:57:15 -0400 Message-ID: <8200556C-8751-4AE7-A036-A40AFA1E90C0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <8932210E-B621-4387-A03E-04E6591E8136@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4326550017465570589==" --===============4326550017465570589== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure, but classic Diesel engines are purely mechanical. paul > On May 8, 2024, at 9:38 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: >=20 > Most modern Diesel engines use a common-rail electronically controlled inje= ction system. >=20 >> On May 8, 2024, at 8:58 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On May 8, 2024, at 7:56 AM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> At a local linux meeting, the leader was disparaging any resurrection of = old technology >>>=20 >>> Anybody else reminded of the science fiction story where ethereal life fo= rms arrive from a distant star system after receiving our first radio transmi= ssions. life that eats radio and electricity, starting with the frequencies = of our first transmissions, but then mutating(?) to all radio, then electrici= ty even in wires, and wiping out all communications, vehicles, etc. There is= a desperate project to resurrect steam engines (to build other steam engines= ) and breed horses. All those steam train museums turn out to be what saves = humanity. just now I realized..shouldn't they also consume all the light too= ? But I guess they can't go beyond microwaves. >>=20 >> "The Waveries" by Fredric Brown, 1945. Never mind the bit about light; th= e author missed the fact that Diesel engines don't need electricity, and also= the fact that thunder can't happen without lightning. >>=20 >> paul >>=20 --===============4326550017465570589==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed May 8 14:17:54 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: saving old technology [was: Recordak Magnaprint Microfiche Printer Free] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 09:17:47 -0500 Message-ID: <1635926576.2215064.1715177867528@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <8200556C-8751-4AE7-A036-A40AFA1E90C0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8648032747187965750==" --===============8648032747187965750== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I doubt that creating deisel fuel is purely mechanical. pumping and processi= ng both. And the glow plug to start is electrical, so will a blowtorch heat = it enough to start without damaging the engine? Of course the propane for th= e blowtorch is another issue. Maybe a few farm tractors, with their open fra= mes could be operated, but trucks with all their controls would have to be re= designed from scratch. 
--Carey
> On 05/08/2024 8:57 AM CDT Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > Sure, but classic Diesel engines are purely mechanical. >=20 > paul >=20 > > On May 8, 2024, at 9:38 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > >=20 > > Most modern Diesel engines use a common-rail electronically controlled in= jection system. > >=20 > >> On May 8, 2024, at 8:58 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>> On May 8, 2024, at 7:56 AM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > >>>=20 > >>> At a local linux meeting, the leader was disparaging any resurrection o= f old technology > >>>=20 > >>> Anybody else reminded of the science fiction story where ethereal life = forms arrive from a distant star system after receiving our first radio trans= missions. life that eats radio and electricity, starting with the frequencie= s of our first transmissions, but then mutating(?) to all radio, then electri= city even in wires, and wiping out all communications, vehicles, etc. There = is a desperate project to resurrect steam engines (to build other steam engin= es) and breed horses. All those steam train museums turn out to be what save= s humanity. just now I realized..shouldn't they also consume all the light t= oo? But I guess they can't go beyond microwaves. > >>=20 > >> "The Waveries" by Fredric Brown, 1945. Never mind the bit about light; = the author missed the fact that Diesel engines don't need electricity, and al= so the fact that thunder can't happen without lightning. > >>=20 > >> paul > >> --===============8648032747187965750==-- From lists@skogtun.org Wed May 8 14:25:13 2024 From: Harald Arnesen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 16:25:07 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <62870B21-A998-4B20-9781-8C9735AA47E6@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0178684320655081506==" --===============0178684320655081506== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Koning via cctalk [07/05/2024 19.31]: > (Then again, I had a classmate who was taking a double major: math and musi= c composition...) Mathemathics and music is not a rare combination - see Tom Lehrer, for=20 instance. --=20 Hilsen Harald --===============0178684320655081506==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed May 8 14:30:44 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 10:30:37 -0400 Message-ID: <09A1A4F0-C11F-4AEC-A3AA-2D64034A6EA5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8835003481510533207==" --===============8835003481510533207== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 8, 2024, at 10:25 AM, Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Paul Koning via cctalk [07/05/2024 19.31]: >=20 >> (Then again, I had a classmate who was taking a double major: math and mus= ic composition...) >=20 > Mathemathics and music is not a rare combination - see Tom Lehrer, for inst= ance. > --=20 > Hilsen Harald My wife (a voice major) pointed out that instrumental music majors tend to be= good at math; voice majors not so much. paul --===============8835003481510533207==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed May 8 15:26:44 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 16:26:09 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8615683278226511899==" --===============8615683278226511899== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 3:25=E2=80=AFPM Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote: > > Paul Koning via cctalk [07/05/2024 19.31]: > > > (Then again, I had a classmate who was taking a double major: math and mu= sic composition...) > > Mathemathics and music is not a rare combination - see Tom Lehrer, for > instance. I am, of course, thinking of the well-known book 'Godel, Escher and Bach, an Eternal Golden Braid' -tony --===============8615683278226511899==-- From maxwell@buffalo.edu Wed May 8 19:06:57 2024 From: John Maxwell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 18:54:39 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3133b074-af5f-453d-825e-8159e439964c@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4112518516779792358==" --===============4112518516779792358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recall an ad for a 'double-helix, special' 6-foot power cord going for $500= (or more) claiming that it would make your main power amplifier sound better= with better mains power - that's about the time I started calling them "audi= o-fools"=20 A quick search of these revealed a power cord at 2.5 meters going for $27,000= from Siltech Cables or a Nordost Odin Gold power cord of 1.25 meters for $35= ,000 in a review from November, 2021. I guess I am in the wrong business (or = am too honest!) -----Original Message----- From: Johan Helsingius via cctalk =20 Sent: Wednesday, 8 May, 2024 02:13 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Johan Helsingius Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.= 5" Floppy Disks] On 08/05/2024 05:53, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > [1] Apparently there's a slogan on the wall of the QUAD workshop=20 > 'Ohm's Law rules here. Oxygen-free cable is not required' That would have been back when Quad was run by Peter J. Walker who was a no-n= onsense engineer. Unfortunately the company is owned by IAG Group (Shenzen, C= hina) and has resorted to more "audiophile" oriented marketing. As to real audiophile scams, there are companies making "audiophile" ethernet= switches and even special, very expensive linear power supplies for ethernet= switches for those audiophiles who have switched to streaming music. Oh, and= audiophile USB cables... Julf --===============4112518516779792358==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed May 8 21:01:33 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 13:52:55 -0700 Message-ID: <70c7bab6-6369-4b27-8e20-1e64e17c5668@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR15MB4828AA0ADF1BBECBE795310BB3E52=40CO1PR15MB?= =?utf-8?q?4828=2Enamprd15=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7808103077522987539==" --===============7808103077522987539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/8/24 11:54, John Maxwell via cctalk wrote: > I recall an ad for a 'double-helix, special' 6-foot power cord going for $5= 00 (or more) claiming that it would make your main power amplifier sound bett= er with better mains power - that's about the time I started calling them "au= dio-fools"=20 >=20 > A quick search of these revealed a power cord at 2.5 meters going for $27,0= 00 from Siltech Cables or a Nordost Odin Gold power cord of 1.25 meters for $= 35,000 in a review from November, 2021. I guess I am in the wrong business (o= r am too honest!) What good is a high-end AC cable if you don't have a receptacle to match? https://www.thecableco.com/swo-xxx-outlet.html Only $123 for a 15A 120V outlet. More here: https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/audiophile_ac_outlets.h= tm If I knew that this stuff wasn't real, I'd figure that it was an April Fool's prank. --Chuck --===============7808103077522987539==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 8 23:40:28 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 16:40:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1269478115.2193801.1715102147803@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6936730851487827430==" --===============6936730851487827430== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > also, what some hinted at is the issue is even a very slight amount of > magnitsm, spinning very fast, could affect the signal in the playback > head.... How many Gauss would you get from vinyl, spinning at 33.3, 45, or 78 RPM? 'course, if the "demagnetizing" also included a wipe with a lint free cloth, . . . How many Gauss would you get from CD/DVD spinning at [whatever the fastest drives now spin at]? are there "homeopathic" (less than one atom per square centimeter?) levels of iron on the media? . . . but, using the device to demagnetize the cables, especially the silver power cable, would be a different story, . . . Y'all have quite adequately answered my original ignorant question. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6936730851487827430==-- From chd@chdickman.com Wed May 8 23:46:21 2024 From: Charles Dickman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Voyager 1 revived. [was: Z80 vs other microprocessors of the time. ] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 19:46:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <58f690ccd0c3a3cb7638b57a090b8f9a2ae962fb.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8721266868913502439==" --===============8721266868913502439== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When Voyager was out of contact and it was in the press, I was curious if any of the Voyager computer details were public. I have not found much detailed information online. I don't think it is a security concern, who has a big enough antenna. On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 4:27=E2=80=AFPM Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 2024-04-23 at 12:45 -0500, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > > Sorry, I guess this should dead end, it is too far off track. I will > still post this since I was among those misled into thinking it had an 1802 > microprocessor. The galileo had an 1802, but it suicided. > > > > from Wikipedia: > > > > It has been erroneously reported[41] on the Internet that the Voyager > > space probes were controlled by a version of the RCA 1802 (RCA > > CDP1802 "COSMAC" microprocessor), but such claims are not supported > > by the primary design documents. The CDP1802 microprocessor was used > > later in the Galileo space probe, which was designed and built years > > later. The digital control electronics of the Voyagers were not based > > on a microprocessor integrated-circuit chip. > > > > 
--Carey
> > NASA has an article about the Voyager computers (two each of three > different kinds) at > https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/frequently-asked-questions/ > > Look for the pop-open "What kind of computers are used on the Voyager > spacecraft?" > > The last paragraph is "Voyager was built in-house at JPL; the computers > were manufactured by General Electric to JPL specifications." > > --===============8721266868913502439==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu May 9 00:22:35 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 20:21:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <09A1A4F0-C11F-4AEC-A3AA-2D64034A6EA5@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5834001567098355590==" --===============5834001567098355590== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/8/2024 10:30 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On May 8, 2024, at 10:25 AM, Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote: >> >> Paul Koning via cctalk [07/05/2024 19.31]: >> >>> (Then again, I had a classmate who was taking a double major: math and mu= sic composition...) >> >> Mathemathics and music is not a rare combination - see Tom Lehrer, for ins= tance. >> --=20 >> Hilsen Harald >=20 > My wife (a voice major) pointed out that instrumental music majors tend to = be good at math; voice majors not so much. Too bad it isn't reciprocal. I was great at math from a very early age. Did Algebra and Geometry in grade school. I have at least a half dozen instruments and I suck at all of them. I can play very technically on most of them but I have no art and can not put any real feeling into the music I play. But then, I only play for myself so I guess it really doesn't matter./ :-) bill --===============5834001567098355590==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu May 9 02:01:19 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 19:01:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <70c7bab6-6369-4b27-8e20-1e64e17c5668@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1417600130514599802==" --===============1417600130514599802== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 2:18=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/8/24 11:54, John Maxwell via cctalk wrote: > > I recall an ad for a 'double-helix, special' 6-foot power cord going for > $500 (or more) claiming that it would make your main power amplifier sound > better with better mains power - that's about the time I started calling > them "audio-fools" > > > > A quick search of these revealed a power cord at 2.5 meters going for > $27,000 from Siltech Cables or a Nordost Odin Gold power cord of 1.25 > meters for $35,000 in a review from November, 2021. I guess I am in the > wrong business (or am too honest!) > > What good is a high-end AC cable if you don't have a receptacle to match? > > https://www.thecableco.com/swo-xxx-outlet.html Only $123 for a 15A 120V > outlet. > More here: > > https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/audiophile_ac_outlets= .htm > > If I knew that this stuff wasn't real, I'd figure that it was an April > Fool's prank. > > --Chuck Why stop there? A truly dedicated audiophile would run new pure silver electrical wire through the walls directly to the breaker box. Then you gotta upgrade to the breaker box that was disinfected from transient spirits through an exorcism, and then special 24K solid gold-contact breakers in inert nylon housings. Sellam --===============1417600130514599802==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 02:10:08 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 19:09:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8585607809814421098==" --===============8585607809814421098== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > More here: >> https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/audiophile_ac_outlet= s.htm >> If I knew that this stuff wasn't real, I'd figure that it was an April >> Fool's prank. On Wed, 8 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Why stop there? A truly dedicated audiophile would run new pure silver > electrical wire through the walls directly to the breaker box. > Then you gotta upgrade to the breaker box that was disinfected from > transient spirits through an exorcism, and then special 24K solid > gold-contact breakers in inert nylon housings. But, how much good will that do, if you don't also upgrade the drop from=20 the pole? . . . and, do you know whether the electrons that you are receiving are=20 from nuclear, hydro, solar, wind, or fossil? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred --===============8585607809814421098==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 9 02:14:17 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 21:14:03 -0500 Message-ID: <719d75e4-a845-4c91-b187-440d582d2c1b@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <09A1A4F0-C11F-4AEC-A3AA-2D64034A6EA5@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5319459082693457516==" --===============5319459082693457516== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is scientific proof that studying music helps with math aptitude=20 and vice versa. On 5/8/2024 9:30 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On May 8, 2024, at 10:25 AM, Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote: >> >> Paul Koning via cctalk [07/05/2024 19.31]: >> >>> (Then again, I had a classmate who was taking a double major: math and mu= sic composition...) >> Mathemathics and music is not a rare combination - see Tom Lehrer, for ins= tance. >> --=20 >> Hilsen Harald > My wife (a voice major) pointed out that instrumental music majors tend to = be good at math; voice majors not so much. > > paul > --===============5319459082693457516==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Thu May 9 02:26:00 2024 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Audiofools, (was :Re: Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks]) Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:50 -0700 Message-ID: <15faa272-45a9-4336-b4e2-f65b9dc2a44f@mainecoon.com> In-Reply-To: <70c7bab6-6369-4b27-8e20-1e64e17c5668@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0806222911970113092==" --===============0806222911970113092== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/8/24 13:52, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > If I knew that this stuff wasn't real, I'd figure that it was an April > Fool's prank. When people have waxed poetic about their oxygen-free mains cords, forged on the inner thighs of virgins [1], and how it affects the quality of their sound system, I have always asked them why their rarefied equipment incorporates power supplies that are so crappy that they can hear the effects of things on the line side of the switch. [1] I'm just bitter because I don't have the balls to ask $30K for a line cord... -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…" --===============0806222911970113092==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Thu May 9 02:42:28 2024 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnetization [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 19:41:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1194447768124159650==" --===============1194447768124159650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Next they'll want silver oxygen free plated plumbing and sewage pipes in thei= r homes. Silver plated toilet seats?=20 Walls insulated with Palladium coated corn silk threads?=20 Seems the subject has really gone astray?.... Lions, Tigers and Bears oh my! = =F0=9F=98=B2) Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk =20 Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2024 7:01 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.= 5" Floppy Disks] Why stop there? A truly dedicated audiophile would run new pure silver elect= rical wire through the walls directly to the breaker box. Then you gotta upgrade to the breaker box that was disinfected from transient= spirits through an exorcism, and then special 24K solid gold-contact breaker= s in inert nylon housings. Sellam --===============1194447768124159650==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Thu May 9 03:06:29 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Demagnetization of eproms was :Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 22:06:23 -0500 Message-ID: <009c9067-ada2-46d3-b7d8-010795390c0d@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <1269478115.2193801.1715102147803@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7667254805104883803==" --===============7667254805104883803== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ... [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] On 5/7/24 12:15, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > my ears would never be good enough to notice any difference.... Off on another tangent years ago when the first eproms showed up, where I worked had nothing but programmable proms (as in Data I/O). I had an Imsai system and had just gotten a board to carry eproms, and brought one in to put some patterns in it till I got a programmer. We had a lot of mag tapes, and in our area (programmers cube farm) there was a utility area with paper punches, binding supplies, and a demagnetizer a safe distance from anyone's tapes. We paused during a chat among about half a dozen and I was off to one side near the demagnetizer.  With my eprom in a carrier. While the discussion on some random topic proceeded, I idly put the prom on the demagenetizer and proceeded to "degauss" it.  Someone noticed me doing that, and to my amusement, for a bit people were seriously asking about erasing the part with that.  Couldn't maintain laughing long enough to get to far, but was still hilarious. about 78 maybe? thanks Jim --===============7667254805104883803==-- From barto@kdbarto.org Thu May 9 06:07:16 2024 From: david barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saga of CP/M Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 13:11:27 -0700 Message-ID: <463DBEAC-282E-43B9-946B-924FA75AFA29@kdbarto.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7801390586788413430==" --===============7801390586788413430== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At Ken Bowles retirement from UCSD (Ken was the lead of the UCSD Pascal Proje= ct) he related a story that IBM came to UCSD after being =E2=80=98rejected=E2= =80=99 by DR to see if the Regents of the University would license UCSD Pasca= l (the OS and the language) to IBM for release on the new hardware IBM was de= veloping. The UC Regents said =E2=80=99no=E2=80=99. He was quite sad that history took the very different course. David > On May 3, 2024, at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for microprocesso= rs. >=20 > CP/M was also briefly called "Control Program and Monitor" > It was written by Gary Kildall. (May 19, 1942 - july 11, 1994) >=20 > Gary taught at Navy Postgraduate School in Monterey. > He took a break in 1972, to complete his PhD at University of Washington. >=20 > He wrote 8008 and 8080 instruction set simulators for Intel, and they loane= d him hardware. >=20 > In 1973? he wrote CP/M. > He offered it to Intel, but they didn't want it, although they marketed the= PL/M. >=20 > He and his wife started "Intergalactic Digital Research" in Pacific Grove. = Later renamed "Digital Research, Inc." >=20 > CP/M rapidly became a defacto standard as operating system for 8080 and lat= er Z80 computers. >=20 > In the late 1970s, when CP/M computers were available with 5.25" drives, an= d there were hundreds, soon thousands of different formats, I chatted with Ga= ry, and pleaded with him ot create a "standard" format for 5.25". > His response was a very polite, "The standard format for CP/M is 8 inch sin= gle sided single density." > I pointed out that formats were proliferating excessively. > His response was a very polite, "I understand. Sorry, but the standard form= at for CP/M is 8 inch single sided single density." >=20 >=20 > In 1980? IBM was developing a personal computer. (y'all have heard of it) O= ne of the IBM people had a Microsoft Softcard (Z80 plus CP/M) in his Apple. = IBM went to Microsoft, to negotiate BASIC for the new machine, and CP/M. >=20 > Bill Gates explained and sent them to Digital Research. >=20 > When the IBM representatives arrived, Gary was flying his plane up to Oakla= nd to visit Bill Godbout. He hadn't seen a need to be present, and assumed t= hat Dorothy would take care of the [presumably completely routine] paperwork.= While visiting Bill godbout, and delivering some software was important, it = WAS something that a low level courier could have done. >=20 >=20 > There was a little bit of a culture clash. > The IBM people were all in identical blue suits. > The DR people were in sandals, barefoot, shorts, t-shirts, braless women, w= ith bicycles, surfboard, plants and even cats in the office, >=20 > The IBM people demanded a signed non=3Ddisclosure ageement before talking. = Dorothy Kildall refused. >=20 > When Dorothy got Gary on the phone, it is unreliably reported that he said,= "well, let them sit on the couch and wait their turn like the rest of the cu= stomers." >=20 > It is also been said that DR people upstairs saw the IBM people marching up= , and thought that it was a drug raid. I have stood in that bay window overl= ooking the front door, and can believe that. >=20 > IBM chose to not do business with DR and went back to Microsoft. > When billg was unable to convince them that Microsoft was not in the operat= ing system business, Microsoft went into the operating system business. They= bought an unlimited license to QDOS (Tim Paterson's work at Seattle Computer= Products). They also hired Tim Paterson. >=20 > DR was working on CP/M-86, but it was a ways off. > Paterson had written QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") as a placeho= lder to be able to continue development while waiting for CP/M-86 > We've mentioned before, that Tim Paterson got the idea for the directory st= ructure from Microsoft Standalone BASIC. As Chuck pointed out, that was not = a new invention, merely a choice of which way to do it. >=20 > billg knew how to deal with officious managers. It is unreliably said that= he told the Microsoft people, "Everybody who does not own a suit, stay home = tomorrow!" >=20 > IBM insisted that Micorsoft beef up security. window shades, locks on door= s that normally weren't, locks on file cabinets, etc. > It is unreliably said that to throw off anyboy who heard about it, that Mic= rosoft referred to the IBm project as "Project Commodore" >=20 >=20 >=20 > dr continued to sell CP/M. > When the 5150/:PC was ready, IBM announced it with PC-DOS, which was a rena= ming of MS-DOS,renaming 86-DOS, renaming QDOS. >=20 > If I recall correctly theprice was $40 (or maybe $60?) >=20 >=20 > DR pointed out that NS-DOS was extremely similar to CP/M. > https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~johnsojr/2012-13/fall/cs370/resources/An%20Insid= e%20Look%20at%20MS-DOS.pdf > IBM didn't consider it a problem, andsimply offered to ALSO sell CP/M-86, p= articularly since they were already also marketing UCSD P-System. >=20 > CP/M-86 was not available yet, so everybody buying a disk based PC bought P= C-DOS. > But, most of us assumed thata CP/M-86 would become the standard once it cam= e out, and PC-DOS was similar and let us use the machines while waiting. >=20 > CP/M-86 took a long time to come out (6 months is a LONG time in such thing= s). > When it did, the price was $240. > There are disagreemnets about whether DR or IBM had set the price point. >=20 > Most decided to keep using Pc-DOs until CP/M-86 had caught on. > But with the price differential, and the lead, PC-DOS remained the standard. >=20 >=20 > dr continued, came out with MP/M-86, and eventually came out with "Concurre= nt DOS", and "DR-DOS", which was based on MS-DOS. > Microsoft could not fault somebody for copying them, when it was the ones t= hat they had copied. > No, Microsoft could certainly not claim trademark status for "DOS"! > In fact, although Microsoft trademarkd "MS-DOS", IBM did NOT trademark PC-D= OS, saying that it just meant Personal Compter Disk Operating System, which i= s a description, not a unique name. In 1987, I visited the Patent and Tradem= ark Office outside of Washington, DC, and personally confirmed that in their = stacks. >=20 > Many people have said that blowing off IBM was the stupidest move in the hi= story of stupid moves. > Other people insist that blowing off IBM was the BRAVEST move in history. >=20 >=20 > A lot of people gave Gary flack about it. > eventually, he bagan drinking. >=20 > On July 8, 1994, Gary fell and hit his head. It is unclear whether that was= during an altercation. (A lot of people fall during bar brawls) It was at = the Franklin Street biker Bar & Grill, Investigation as a potential homicide = was inconclusive. >=20 >=20 > About 10 years ago, I was in Pacific Grove, and visited the DR house on Lig= hthouse street. An extremely hospitable fellow had recently bought it in a f= oreclosure sale. At the time that he bought it, he was unaware of the histor= ical significance. He let me wander through the whole place, looking out the= upstairs window at the walkway, etc. >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7801390586788413430==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Thu May 9 10:19:43 2024 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnetization [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 10:57:57 +0100 Message-ID: <02435bf6-c852-4ebe-8266-62322d282a06@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAJlg9s36eDRCs74XZj8gmQoBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0239047852382541646==" --===============0239047852382541646== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 09/05/2024 03:41, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > Next they'll want silver oxygen free plated plumbing and sewage pipes in th= eir homes. Silver plated toilet seats? > > Walls insulated with Palladium coated corn silk threads? > > Seems the subject has really gone astray?.... Lions, Tigers and Bears oh my= ! =F0=9F=98=B2) > > Don Resor > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2024 7:01 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Sellam Abraham > Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density = 3.5" Floppy Disks] > > Why stop there? A truly dedicated audiophile would run new pure silver ele= ctrical wire through the walls directly to the breaker box. > > Then you gotta upgrade to the breaker box that was disinfected from transie= nt spirits through an exorcism, and then special 24K solid gold-contact break= ers in inert nylon housings. Surely you have to get the cables upgraded all the way back to the=20 original generator? Then you have secondary effects, for example, with=20 hydro power, the purity of the water makes a *huge* difference. I also think it's just as important to have your ears, and the gap=20 between them syringed too. Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============0239047852382541646==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu May 9 11:39:28 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 07:39:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <463DBEAC-282E-43B9-946B-924FA75AFA29@kdbarto.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7354105477157766402==" --===============7354105477157766402== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Without doing the research before asking, there was the UCSD p-System Pascal for IBM PC which came out very early in the history of the IBM PC. It was not very popular. The SAGE II that had native Pascal (68000) was not a popular machine. Waterloo Pascal on the SuperPet....Pascal never really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? Bill On Thu, May 9, 2024, 2:07 AM david barto via cctalk wrote: > At Ken Bowles retirement from UCSD (Ken was the lead of the UCSD Pascal > Project) he related a story that IBM came to UCSD after being =E2=80=98reje= cted=E2=80=99 by > DR to see if the Regents of the University would license UCSD Pascal (the > OS and the language) to IBM for release on the new hardware IBM was > developing. The UC Regents said =E2=80=99no=E2=80=99. > > He was quite sad that history took the very different course. > > David > > > On May 3, 2024, at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for > microprocessors. > > > > CP/M was also briefly called "Control Program and Monitor" > > It was written by Gary Kildall. (May 19, 1942 - july 11, 1994) > > > > Gary taught at Navy Postgraduate School in Monterey. > > He took a break in 1972, to complete his PhD at University of Washington. > > > > He wrote 8008 and 8080 instruction set simulators for Intel, and they > loaned him hardware. > > > > In 1973? he wrote CP/M. > > He offered it to Intel, but they didn't want it, although they marketed > the PL/M. > > > > He and his wife started "Intergalactic Digital Research" in Pacific > Grove. Later renamed "Digital Research, Inc." > > > > CP/M rapidly became a defacto standard as operating system for 8080 and > later Z80 computers. > > > > In the late 1970s, when CP/M computers were available with 5.25" drives, > and there were hundreds, soon thousands of different formats, I chatted > with Gary, and pleaded with him ot create a "standard" format for 5.25". > > His response was a very polite, "The standard format for CP/M is 8 inch > single sided single density." > > I pointed out that formats were proliferating excessively. > > His response was a very polite, "I understand. Sorry, but the standard > format for CP/M is 8 inch single sided single density." > > > > > > In 1980? IBM was developing a personal computer. (y'all have heard of > it) One of the IBM people had a Microsoft Softcard (Z80 plus CP/M) in his > Apple. IBM went to Microsoft, to negotiate BASIC for the new machine, and > CP/M. > > > > Bill Gates explained and sent them to Digital Research. > > > > When the IBM representatives arrived, Gary was flying his plane up to > Oakland to visit Bill Godbout. He hadn't seen a need to be present, and > assumed that Dorothy would take care of the [presumably completely routine] > paperwork. While visiting Bill godbout, and delivering some software was > important, it WAS something that a low level courier could have done. > > > > > > There was a little bit of a culture clash. > > The IBM people were all in identical blue suits. > > The DR people were in sandals, barefoot, shorts, t-shirts, braless > women, with bicycles, surfboard, plants and even cats in the office, > > > > The IBM people demanded a signed non=3Ddisclosure ageement before talking. > Dorothy Kildall refused. > > > > When Dorothy got Gary on the phone, it is unreliably reported that he > said, "well, let them sit on the couch and wait their turn like the rest of > the customers." > > > > It is also been said that DR people upstairs saw the IBM people marching > up, and thought that it was a drug raid. I have stood in that bay window > overlooking the front door, and can believe that. > > > > IBM chose to not do business with DR and went back to Microsoft. > > When billg was unable to convince them that Microsoft was not in the > operating system business, Microsoft went into the operating system > business. They bought an unlimited license to QDOS (Tim Paterson's work at > Seattle Computer Products). They also hired Tim Paterson. > > > > DR was working on CP/M-86, but it was a ways off. > > Paterson had written QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") as a > placeholder to be able to continue development while waiting for CP/M-86 > > We've mentioned before, that Tim Paterson got the idea for the directory > structure from Microsoft Standalone BASIC. As Chuck pointed out, that was > not a new invention, merely a choice of which way to do it. > > > > billg knew how to deal with officious managers. It is unreliably said > that he told the Microsoft people, "Everybody who does not own a suit, stay > home tomorrow!" > > > > IBM insisted that Micorsoft beef up security. window shades, locks on > doors that normally weren't, locks on file cabinets, etc. > > It is unreliably said that to throw off anyboy who heard about it, that > Microsoft referred to the IBm project as "Project Commodore" > > > > > > > > dr continued to sell CP/M. > > When the 5150/:PC was ready, IBM announced it with PC-DOS, which was a > renaming of MS-DOS,renaming 86-DOS, renaming QDOS. > > > > If I recall correctly theprice was $40 (or maybe $60?) > > > > > > DR pointed out that NS-DOS was extremely similar to CP/M. > > > https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~johnsojr/2012-13/fall/cs370/resources/An%20Insid= e%20Look%20at%20MS-DOS.pdf > > IBM didn't consider it a problem, andsimply offered to ALSO sell > CP/M-86, particularly since they were already also marketing UCSD P-System. > > > > CP/M-86 was not available yet, so everybody buying a disk based PC > bought PC-DOS. > > But, most of us assumed thata CP/M-86 would become the standard once it > came out, and PC-DOS was similar and let us use the machines while waiting. > > > > CP/M-86 took a long time to come out (6 months is a LONG time in such > things). > > When it did, the price was $240. > > There are disagreemnets about whether DR or IBM had set the price point. > > > > Most decided to keep using Pc-DOs until CP/M-86 had caught on. > > But with the price differential, and the lead, PC-DOS remained the > standard. > > > > > > dr continued, came out with MP/M-86, and eventually came out with > "Concurrent DOS", and "DR-DOS", which was based on MS-DOS. > > Microsoft could not fault somebody for copying them, when it was the > ones that they had copied. > > No, Microsoft could certainly not claim trademark status for "DOS"! > > In fact, although Microsoft trademarkd "MS-DOS", IBM did NOT trademark > PC-DOS, saying that it just meant Personal Compter Disk Operating System, > which is a description, not a unique name. In 1987, I visited the Patent > and Trademark Office outside of Washington, DC, and personally confirmed > that in their stacks. > > > > Many people have said that blowing off IBM was the stupidest move in the > history of stupid moves. > > Other people insist that blowing off IBM was the BRAVEST move in history. > > > > > > A lot of people gave Gary flack about it. > > eventually, he bagan drinking. > > > > On July 8, 1994, Gary fell and hit his head. It is unclear whether that > was during an altercation. (A lot of people fall during bar brawls) It > was at the Franklin Street biker Bar & Grill, Investigation as a potential > homicide was inconclusive. > > > > > > About 10 years ago, I was in Pacific Grove, and visited the DR house on > Lighthouse street. An extremely hospitable fellow had recently bought it > in a foreclosure sale. At the time that he bought it, he was unaware of > the historical significance. He let me wander through the whole place, > looking out the upstairs window at the walkway, etc. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > --===============7354105477157766402==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Thu May 9 11:49:09 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnetization [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 06:49:03 -0500 Message-ID: <1266899916.2239137.1715255344065@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <02435bf6-c852-4ebe-8266-62322d282a06@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7539516560222636465==" --===============7539516560222636465== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What's with this cost-cutting second rate silver? Gold is the best conductor= for now, all the way back to special generation plants where the generators = have gold wires too. And start saving up, there is a possibility of room temperature superconducto= rs in the futue. 
--Carey
--===============7539516560222636465==-- From raymond.wiker@icloud.com Thu May 9 11:51:02 2024 From: raymond.wiker@icloud.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 13:45:20 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8325271342418848492==" --===============8325271342418848492== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Sage machines had UCSD as one of their OS options (others were Mirage and= probably also CP/M-68K). I've never heard of a native Pascal for Sage. Sage had a multi-user BIOS, so you could have several people sharing a single= machine. They were also quite popular and successful for a while. > On 9 May 2024, at 13:39, Bill Degnan via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > Without doing the research before asking, there was the UCSD p-System > Pascal for IBM PC which came out very early in the history of the IBM PC. > It was not very popular. The SAGE II that had native Pascal (68000) was > not a popular machine. Waterloo Pascal on the SuperPet....Pascal never > really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? > Bill >=20 > On Thu, May 9, 2024, 2:07 AM david barto via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> At Ken Bowles retirement from UCSD (Ken was the lead of the UCSD Pascal >> Project) he related a story that IBM came to UCSD after being =E2=80=98rej= ected=E2=80=99 by >> DR to see if the Regents of the University would license UCSD Pascal (the >> OS and the language) to IBM for release on the new hardware IBM was >> developing. The UC Regents said =E2=80=99no=E2=80=99. >>=20 >> He was quite sad that history took the very different course. >>=20 >> David >>=20 >>> On May 3, 2024, at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM, Fred Cisin via cctalk >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for >> microprocessors. >>>=20 >>> CP/M was also briefly called "Control Program and Monitor" >>> It was written by Gary Kildall. (May 19, 1942 - july 11, 1994) >>>=20 >>> Gary taught at Navy Postgraduate School in Monterey. >>> He took a break in 1972, to complete his PhD at University of Washington. >>>=20 >>> He wrote 8008 and 8080 instruction set simulators for Intel, and they >> loaned him hardware. >>>=20 >>> In 1973? he wrote CP/M. >>> He offered it to Intel, but they didn't want it, although they marketed >> the PL/M. >>>=20 >>> He and his wife started "Intergalactic Digital Research" in Pacific >> Grove. Later renamed "Digital Research, Inc." >>>=20 >>> CP/M rapidly became a defacto standard as operating system for 8080 and >> later Z80 computers. >>>=20 >>> In the late 1970s, when CP/M computers were available with 5.25" drives, >> and there were hundreds, soon thousands of different formats, I chatted >> with Gary, and pleaded with him ot create a "standard" format for 5.25". >>> His response was a very polite, "The standard format for CP/M is 8 inch >> single sided single density." >>> I pointed out that formats were proliferating excessively. >>> His response was a very polite, "I understand. Sorry, but the standard >> format for CP/M is 8 inch single sided single density." >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> In 1980? IBM was developing a personal computer. (y'all have heard of >> it) One of the IBM people had a Microsoft Softcard (Z80 plus CP/M) in his >> Apple. IBM went to Microsoft, to negotiate BASIC for the new machine, and >> CP/M. >>>=20 >>> Bill Gates explained and sent them to Digital Research. >>>=20 >>> When the IBM representatives arrived, Gary was flying his plane up to >> Oakland to visit Bill Godbout. He hadn't seen a need to be present, and >> assumed that Dorothy would take care of the [presumably completely routine] >> paperwork. While visiting Bill godbout, and delivering some software was >> important, it WAS something that a low level courier could have done. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> There was a little bit of a culture clash. >>> The IBM people were all in identical blue suits. >>> The DR people were in sandals, barefoot, shorts, t-shirts, braless >> women, with bicycles, surfboard, plants and even cats in the office, >>>=20 >>> The IBM people demanded a signed non=3Ddisclosure ageement before talking. >> Dorothy Kildall refused. >>>=20 >>> When Dorothy got Gary on the phone, it is unreliably reported that he >> said, "well, let them sit on the couch and wait their turn like the rest of >> the customers." >>>=20 >>> It is also been said that DR people upstairs saw the IBM people marching >> up, and thought that it was a drug raid. I have stood in that bay window >> overlooking the front door, and can believe that. >>>=20 >>> IBM chose to not do business with DR and went back to Microsoft. >>> When billg was unable to convince them that Microsoft was not in the >> operating system business, Microsoft went into the operating system >> business. They bought an unlimited license to QDOS (Tim Paterson's work at >> Seattle Computer Products). They also hired Tim Paterson. >>>=20 >>> DR was working on CP/M-86, but it was a ways off. >>> Paterson had written QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") as a >> placeholder to be able to continue development while waiting for CP/M-86 >>> We've mentioned before, that Tim Paterson got the idea for the directory >> structure from Microsoft Standalone BASIC. As Chuck pointed out, that was >> not a new invention, merely a choice of which way to do it. >>>=20 >>> billg knew how to deal with officious managers. It is unreliably said >> that he told the Microsoft people, "Everybody who does not own a suit, stay >> home tomorrow!" >>>=20 >>> IBM insisted that Micorsoft beef up security. window shades, locks on >> doors that normally weren't, locks on file cabinets, etc. >>> It is unreliably said that to throw off anyboy who heard about it, that >> Microsoft referred to the IBm project as "Project Commodore" >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> dr continued to sell CP/M. >>> When the 5150/:PC was ready, IBM announced it with PC-DOS, which was a >> renaming of MS-DOS,renaming 86-DOS, renaming QDOS. >>>=20 >>> If I recall correctly theprice was $40 (or maybe $60?) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> DR pointed out that NS-DOS was extremely similar to CP/M. >>>=20 >> https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~johnsojr/2012-13/fall/cs370/resources/An%20Insi= de%20Look%20at%20MS-DOS.pdf >>> IBM didn't consider it a problem, andsimply offered to ALSO sell >> CP/M-86, particularly since they were already also marketing UCSD P-System. >>>=20 >>> CP/M-86 was not available yet, so everybody buying a disk based PC >> bought PC-DOS. >>> But, most of us assumed thata CP/M-86 would become the standard once it >> came out, and PC-DOS was similar and let us use the machines while waiting. >>>=20 >>> CP/M-86 took a long time to come out (6 months is a LONG time in such >> things). >>> When it did, the price was $240. >>> There are disagreemnets about whether DR or IBM had set the price point. >>>=20 >>> Most decided to keep using Pc-DOs until CP/M-86 had caught on. >>> But with the price differential, and the lead, PC-DOS remained the >> standard. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> dr continued, came out with MP/M-86, and eventually came out with >> "Concurrent DOS", and "DR-DOS", which was based on MS-DOS. >>> Microsoft could not fault somebody for copying them, when it was the >> ones that they had copied. >>> No, Microsoft could certainly not claim trademark status for "DOS"! >>> In fact, although Microsoft trademarkd "MS-DOS", IBM did NOT trademark >> PC-DOS, saying that it just meant Personal Compter Disk Operating System, >> which is a description, not a unique name. In 1987, I visited the Patent >> and Trademark Office outside of Washington, DC, and personally confirmed >> that in their stacks. >>>=20 >>> Many people have said that blowing off IBM was the stupidest move in the >> history of stupid moves. >>> Other people insist that blowing off IBM was the BRAVEST move in history. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> A lot of people gave Gary flack about it. >>> eventually, he bagan drinking. >>>=20 >>> On July 8, 1994, Gary fell and hit his head. It is unclear whether that >> was during an altercation. (A lot of people fall during bar brawls) It >> was at the Franklin Street biker Bar & Grill, Investigation as a potential >> homicide was inconclusive. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> About 10 years ago, I was in Pacific Grove, and visited the DR house on >> Lighthouse street. An extremely hospitable fellow had recently bought it >> in a foreclosure sale. At the time that he bought it, he was unaware of >> the historical significance. He let me wander through the whole place, >> looking out the upstairs window at the walkway, etc. >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >>=20 >>=20 --===============8325271342418848492==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu May 9 11:58:55 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 07:58:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5141098276671634759==" --===============5141098276671634759== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I meant UCSD not native Pascal. I assume the SAGE was popular with those who bought them, but relative to the PC, quite obscure of a computer. Most people today have little knowledge of the SAGE II / IV. How many even exist today? A hundred? I think the issue with Pascal at that time is that the underlying DOS was adapted to the machine, but little time was spent on the file utilities and such to make it a competitor with MS DOS or CP/M for that matter. I can be convinced otherwise but it seems like microcomputing Pascal was more of a staging environment for then upload into a production mainframe/mini Bill On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFAM Raymond Wiker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Sage machines had UCSD as one of their OS options (others were Mirage > and probably also CP/M-68K). I've never heard of a native Pascal for Sage. > > Sage had a multi-user BIOS, so you could have several people sharing a > single machine. They were also quite popular and successful for a while. > > > On 9 May 2024, at 13:39, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Without doing the research before asking, there was the UCSD p-System > > Pascal for IBM PC which came out very early in the history of the IBM PC. > > It was not very popular. The SAGE II that had native Pascal (68000) was > > not a popular machine. Waterloo Pascal on the SuperPet....Pascal never > > really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? > > Bill > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2024, 2:07 AM david barto via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> At Ken Bowles retirement from UCSD (Ken was the lead of the UCSD Pascal > >> Project) he related a story that IBM came to UCSD after being > =E2=80=98rejected=E2=80=99 by > >> DR to see if the Regents of the University would license UCSD Pascal > (the > >> OS and the language) to IBM for release on the new hardware IBM was > >> developing. The UC Regents said =E2=80=99no=E2=80=99. > >> > >> He was quite sad that history took the very different course. > >> > >> David > >> > >>> On May 3, 2024, at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for > >> microprocessors. > >>> > >>> CP/M was also briefly called "Control Program and Monitor" > >>> It was written by Gary Kildall. (May 19, 1942 - july 11, 1994) > >>> > >>> Gary taught at Navy Postgraduate School in Monterey. > >>> He took a break in 1972, to complete his PhD at University of > Washington. > >>> > >>> He wrote 8008 and 8080 instruction set simulators for Intel, and they > >> loaned him hardware. > >>> > >>> In 1973? he wrote CP/M. > >>> He offered it to Intel, but they didn't want it, although they marketed > >> the PL/M. > >>> > >>> He and his wife started "Intergalactic Digital Research" in Pacific > >> Grove. Later renamed "Digital Research, Inc." > >>> > >>> CP/M rapidly became a defacto standard as operating system for 8080 and > >> later Z80 computers. > >>> > >>> In the late 1970s, when CP/M computers were available with 5.25" > drives, > >> and there were hundreds, soon thousands of different formats, I chatted > >> with Gary, and pleaded with him ot create a "standard" format for 5.25". > >>> His response was a very polite, "The standard format for CP/M is 8 inch > >> single sided single density." > >>> I pointed out that formats were proliferating excessively. > >>> His response was a very polite, "I understand. Sorry, but the standard > >> format for CP/M is 8 inch single sided single density." > >>> > >>> > >>> In 1980? IBM was developing a personal computer. (y'all have heard of > >> it) One of the IBM people had a Microsoft Softcard (Z80 plus CP/M) in > his > >> Apple. IBM went to Microsoft, to negotiate BASIC for the new machine, > and > >> CP/M. > >>> > >>> Bill Gates explained and sent them to Digital Research. > >>> > >>> When the IBM representatives arrived, Gary was flying his plane up to > >> Oakland to visit Bill Godbout. He hadn't seen a need to be present, and > >> assumed that Dorothy would take care of the [presumably completely > routine] > >> paperwork. While visiting Bill godbout, and delivering some software was > >> important, it WAS something that a low level courier could have done. > >>> > >>> > >>> There was a little bit of a culture clash. > >>> The IBM people were all in identical blue suits. > >>> The DR people were in sandals, barefoot, shorts, t-shirts, braless > >> women, with bicycles, surfboard, plants and even cats in the office, > >>> > >>> The IBM people demanded a signed non=3Ddisclosure ageement before > talking. > >> Dorothy Kildall refused. > >>> > >>> When Dorothy got Gary on the phone, it is unreliably reported that he > >> said, "well, let them sit on the couch and wait their turn like the > rest of > >> the customers." > >>> > >>> It is also been said that DR people upstairs saw the IBM people > marching > >> up, and thought that it was a drug raid. I have stood in that bay > window > >> overlooking the front door, and can believe that. > >>> > >>> IBM chose to not do business with DR and went back to Microsoft. > >>> When billg was unable to convince them that Microsoft was not in the > >> operating system business, Microsoft went into the operating system > >> business. They bought an unlimited license to QDOS (Tim Paterson's > work at > >> Seattle Computer Products). They also hired Tim Paterson. > >>> > >>> DR was working on CP/M-86, but it was a ways off. > >>> Paterson had written QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") as a > >> placeholder to be able to continue development while waiting for CP/M-86 > >>> We've mentioned before, that Tim Paterson got the idea for the > directory > >> structure from Microsoft Standalone BASIC. As Chuck pointed out, that > was > >> not a new invention, merely a choice of which way to do it. > >>> > >>> billg knew how to deal with officious managers. It is unreliably said > >> that he told the Microsoft people, "Everybody who does not own a suit, > stay > >> home tomorrow!" > >>> > >>> IBM insisted that Micorsoft beef up security. window shades, locks on > >> doors that normally weren't, locks on file cabinets, etc. > >>> It is unreliably said that to throw off anyboy who heard about it, that > >> Microsoft referred to the IBm project as "Project Commodore" > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> dr continued to sell CP/M. > >>> When the 5150/:PC was ready, IBM announced it with PC-DOS, which was a > >> renaming of MS-DOS,renaming 86-DOS, renaming QDOS. > >>> > >>> If I recall correctly theprice was $40 (or maybe $60?) > >>> > >>> > >>> DR pointed out that NS-DOS was extremely similar to CP/M. > >>> > >> > https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~johnsojr/2012-13/fall/cs370/resources/An%20Insid= e%20Look%20at%20MS-DOS.pdf > >>> IBM didn't consider it a problem, andsimply offered to ALSO sell > >> CP/M-86, particularly since they were already also marketing UCSD > P-System. > >>> > >>> CP/M-86 was not available yet, so everybody buying a disk based PC > >> bought PC-DOS. > >>> But, most of us assumed thata CP/M-86 would become the standard once it > >> came out, and PC-DOS was similar and let us use the machines while > waiting. > >>> > >>> CP/M-86 took a long time to come out (6 months is a LONG time in such > >> things). > >>> When it did, the price was $240. > >>> There are disagreemnets about whether DR or IBM had set the price > point. > >>> > >>> Most decided to keep using Pc-DOs until CP/M-86 had caught on. > >>> But with the price differential, and the lead, PC-DOS remained the > >> standard. > >>> > >>> > >>> dr continued, came out with MP/M-86, and eventually came out with > >> "Concurrent DOS", and "DR-DOS", which was based on MS-DOS. > >>> Microsoft could not fault somebody for copying them, when it was the > >> ones that they had copied. > >>> No, Microsoft could certainly not claim trademark status for "DOS"! > >>> In fact, although Microsoft trademarkd "MS-DOS", IBM did NOT trademark > >> PC-DOS, saying that it just meant Personal Compter Disk Operating > System, > >> which is a description, not a unique name. In 1987, I visited the > Patent > >> and Trademark Office outside of Washington, DC, and personally confirmed > >> that in their stacks. > >>> > >>> Many people have said that blowing off IBM was the stupidest move in > the > >> history of stupid moves. > >>> Other people insist that blowing off IBM was the BRAVEST move in > history. > >>> > >>> > >>> A lot of people gave Gary flack about it. > >>> eventually, he bagan drinking. > >>> > >>> On July 8, 1994, Gary fell and hit his head. It is unclear whether that > >> was during an altercation. (A lot of people fall during bar brawls) It > >> was at the Franklin Street biker Bar & Grill, Investigation as a > potential > >> homicide was inconclusive. > >>> > >>> > >>> About 10 years ago, I was in Pacific Grove, and visited the DR house on > >> Lighthouse street. An extremely hospitable fellow had recently bought > it > >> in a foreclosure sale. At the time that he bought it, he was unaware of > >> the historical significance. He let me wander through the whole place, > >> looking out the upstairs window at the walkway, etc. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > >> > >> > > --===============5141098276671634759==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 9 12:01:14 2024 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 07:53:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4654443154036999242==" --===============4654443154036999242== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 9 May 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Without doing the research before asking, there was the UCSD p-System > Pascal for IBM PC which came out very early in the history of the IBM PC. > It was not very popular. The SAGE II that had native Pascal (68000) was > not a popular machine. Waterloo Pascal on the SuperPet....Pascal never > really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? I can't quote numbers, but Borland's Turbo Pascal was quite popular on bo= th=20 CP/M machines and IBM PC and clones. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============4654443154036999242==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu May 9 12:24:50 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 08:24:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3731880943228809606==" --===============3731880943228809606== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike I was thinking operating systems and the early launch version IBM PC, but yes once the hardware caught up Turbo Pascal was a popular program now that I think about it. So I guess the PC versions just needed more horsepower and some useful libraries. But Pascal never matched C Bill On Thu, May 9, 2024, 8:08 AM Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 9 May 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > Without doing the research before asking, there was the UCSD p-System > > Pascal for IBM PC which came out very early in the history of the IBM PC. > > It was not very popular. The SAGE II that had native Pascal (68000) was > > not a popular machine. Waterloo Pascal on the SuperPet....Pascal never > > really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? > > I can't quote numbers, but Borland's Turbo Pascal was quite popular on > both > CP/M machines and IBM PC and clones. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > --===============3731880943228809606==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu May 9 12:45:18 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 07:45:13 -0500 Message-ID: <2057121570.11090215.1715258713921@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1446385011834011905==" --===============1446385011834011905== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 05/09/2024 7:24 AM CDT Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: > > > Mike > I was thinking operating systems and the early launch version IBM PC, but > yes once the hardware caught up Turbo Pascal was a popular program now that > I think about it. So I guess the PC versions just needed more horsepower > and some useful libraries. But Pascal never matched C > Bill > My perception is that UCSD P system was quite popular in the late 70s on Appl= e and other systems. Then when the university turned it over to commercial m= arketing (SofTech?), the silly games played turned a lot of people off. Like= trying to revoke previously granted licenses and charging "too much." I suspect that left a bad taste in a lot of mouths that might otherwise have = been interested. But I was a distant observer at the time; I couldn't affor= d more than my ZX-81 and VIC-20. Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============1446385011834011905==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Thu May 9 12:48:32 2024 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnetization [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 05:47:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <02435bf6-c852-4ebe-8266-62322d282a06@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4169722034764319225==" --===============4169722034764319225== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Antonio, Thanks for the chuckle! What will happen when the audio-phools when a visit to the Ear Nose and Throa= t specialist requires their ear canals be cleaned.=20 What if the sound they so preciously loved is no longer like fine wine but in= stead Ripple, Muscatel, Pre-Foosay, Old Crow or Poosay-Foosay? (Benny Hill). On a personal note I rented a two banger generator when Edison was replacing = a transformer in the area. I could hear a percussive sound in a small electr= ic fan I had in the bedroom. Fly Wheel was too small I suppose. I don't rem= ember a 1970s Onan generators had that problem. One doesn't realize what is missing until it is... Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: Antonio Carlini via cctalk =20 Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2024 2:58 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Antonio Carlini Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnetization [was: Double Density 3.5"= Floppy Disks] On 09/05/2024 03:41, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > Next they'll want silver oxygen free plated plumbing and sewage pipes in th= eir homes. Silver plated toilet seats? > > Walls insulated with Palladium coated corn silk threads? > > Seems the subject has really gone astray?.... Lions, Tigers and Bears=20 > oh my! =F0=9F=98=B2) > > Don Resor > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2024 7:01 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts=20 > > Cc: Sellam Abraham > Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double=20 > Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] > > Why stop there? A truly dedicated audiophile would run new pure silver ele= ctrical wire through the walls directly to the breaker box. > > Then you gotta upgrade to the breaker box that was disinfected from transie= nt spirits through an exorcism, and then special 24K solid gold-contact break= ers in inert nylon housings. Surely you have to get the cables upgraded all the way back to the original g= enerator? Then you have secondary effects, for example, with hydro power, the= purity of the water makes a *huge* difference. I also think it's just as important to have your ears, and the gap between th= em syringed too. Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============4169722034764319225==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Thu May 9 13:08:43 2024 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 06:08:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8129056363808346945==" --===============8129056363808346945== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 9 May 2024, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 9 May 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > >> Without doing the research before asking, there was the UCSD p-System >> Pascal for IBM PC which came out very early in the history of the IBM PC. >> It was not very popular. The SAGE II that had native Pascal (68000) was >> not a popular machine. Waterloo Pascal on the SuperPet....Pascal never >> really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? > > I can't quote numbers, but Borland's Turbo Pascal was quite popular on > both CP/M machines and IBM PC and clones. It was a juggernaut until a pack of drooling morons wielding MBAs got their claws into Borland. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============8129056363808346945==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Thu May 9 13:09:02 2024 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 14:59:22 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <80651c90-08f5-42f3-8e7f-1e623d46697a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6340038969911233608==" --===============6340038969911233608== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, May 06, 2024 at 08:54:53PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/6/24 20:25, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/134706639303 > > > > include a basic feature for rewinding rental DVDs before returning them. > > > Of course, you need a pure silver AC cable for those: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/115970049389 Wow, the description text is hilarious: "[..] the mid frequency is loose and hydrated [..]" I sure hope those cables are properly sealed, wouldn't want some hydrated mid freqency sloshing onto the shag pile! SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============6340038969911233608==-- From als@thangorodrim.de Thu May 9 13:30:13 2024 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 15:17:41 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1269478115.2193801.1715102147803@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1310922878387884752==" --===============1310922878387884752== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 07, 2024 at 12:15:47PM -0500, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > my ears would never be good enough to notice any difference.... >=20 > For what it's worth: >=20 > First, in general, there are so many apparent reviews of so many products, = it > is hard to believe they are all scams. How can there be enough fools to buy > enough of those products to have that many different ones? I mean, it takes > a lot of work to develop a product, if you only sell 5, it is not worth it. > if you take money and don't send anything,t hat would show up in a google > search. I don't think that stuff like "oxygen free copper cables" take much development effort given that cheap regular copper wire already _is_ both 99.99% copper (result of the eletrorefining process) and contains no oxygen in the metal. The most effort, I suspect, is making up the marketing materials and selling that bullshit while keeping a (somewhat) straight face. > also, what some hinted at is the issue is even a very slight amount of > magnitsm, spinning very fast, could affect the signal in the playback > head.... CDs and DVDs are made from polycarbonate (for the body) and aluminium (the reflector) - nothing even remotely magnetic here, no matter what some sellers of high grade recrystallized snake oil claim. >=20 > Do CDs and DVDs have parity and or checksums? If you grab a CD twice, will > both results be identical bit for bit? =20 Audio CDs use Reed Solomon error correcting codes (specifically Cross Interleaved Reed-Solomon Coding (CIRC)) in order to extract acceptable signal out of a not-so-great storage medium. Digital CD formats pile at _least_ another layer of error correction on top of that. >=20 > https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/cd-dvd-demagnetization/ >=20 > https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/if-you-have-a-cd-player-you-need-to-= do-this-periodically >=20 > At first, this SEEMS even more ludicrous, demagnetizing vinyl LPs, but the = pickup heads are analogue magnetic, so maybe more reasonable There are plenty of reasons why the correct pronounciation of "Audiophile" is "Audiofool". E.g. "magnetism that has built up during playback" - tell me you slept through physics class without telling me you slept through physics class. But, as always, there is plenty of money to be made selling bullshit to the gullible ;-) Kind regards, Alex. --=20 "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============1310922878387884752==-- From als@thangorodrim.de Thu May 9 13:38:49 2024 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 15:24:35 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3133b074-af5f-453d-825e-8159e439964c@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6382529614028188474==" --===============6382529614028188474== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, May 08, 2024 at 08:13:20AM +0200, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > On 08/05/2024 05:53, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > [1] Apparently there's a slogan on the wall of the QUAD workshop > > 'Ohm's Law rules here. Oxygen-free cable is not required' > > That would have been back when Quad was run by Peter J. Walker > who was a no-nonsense engineer. Unfortunately the company is > owned by IAG Group (Shenzen, China) and has resorted to more > "audiophile" oriented marketing. > > As to real audiophile scams, there are companies making > "audiophile" ethernet switches and even special, very > expensive linear power supplies for ethernet switches > for those audiophiles who have switched to streaming > music. Oh, and audiophile USB cables... I've seen "audio phile grade" Ethernet cables, promising "smoother sound delivery" and other, impossible to measure, nonsense. Basically bog-standard cat5 cable in fancy dress with eye-watering markup. A fool and his money are soon parted. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============6382529614028188474==-- From als@thangorodrim.de Thu May 9 13:38:53 2024 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 15:28:24 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5776374112005384150==" --===============5776374112005384150== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 08, 2024 at 07:09:58PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > More here: > > > https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/audiophile_ac_out= lets.htm > > > If I knew that this stuff wasn't real, I'd figure that it was an April > > > Fool's prank. >=20 > On Wed, 8 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Why stop there? A truly dedicated audiophile would run new pure silver > > electrical wire through the walls directly to the breaker box. > > Then you gotta upgrade to the breaker box that was disinfected from > > transient spirits through an exorcism, and then special 24K solid > > gold-contact breakers in inert nylon housings. >=20 > But, how much good will that do, if you don't also upgrade the drop from the > pole? >=20 > . . . and, do you know whether the electrons that you are receiving are from > nuclear, hydro, solar, wind, or fossil? German snake oil wizards to the rescue! The "Atomstromfilter" (nuclear power filter) joke product has been making the rounds in Germany for at _least_ 20+y now: https://traumshop.net/produkt/atomstromfilter/ It claims to filter power generated by nuclear power plants out of your power flow at the wall socket ;-) Kind regards, Alex. --=20 "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============5776374112005384150==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Thu May 9 13:46:38 2024 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 07:46:19 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1140205027637857979==" --===============1140205027637857979== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 9, 2024, 5:39=E2=80=AFAM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Without doing the research before asking, there was the UCSD p-System > Pascal for IBM PC which came out very early in the history of the IBM PC. > It was not very popular. The SAGE II that had native Pascal (68000) was > not a popular machine. Waterloo Pascal on the SuperPet....Pascal never > really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? > Not until TurboPascal... But it was only a few years until C emerged from the language "street fight" as top dog... depending on what the universe of microcomputers we're talking about. Warner Bill > > On Thu, May 9, 2024, 2:07 AM david barto via cctalk > > wrote: > > > At Ken Bowles retirement from UCSD (Ken was the lead of the UCSD Pascal > > Project) he related a story that IBM came to UCSD after being =E2=80=98re= jected=E2=80=99 > by > > DR to see if the Regents of the University would license UCSD Pascal (the > > OS and the language) to IBM for release on the new hardware IBM was > > developing. The UC Regents said =E2=80=99no=E2=80=99. > > > > He was quite sad that history took the very different course. > > > > David > > > > > On May 3, 2024, at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > > > > PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for > > microprocessors. > > > > > > CP/M was also briefly called "Control Program and Monitor" > > > It was written by Gary Kildall. (May 19, 1942 - july 11, 1994) > > > > > > Gary taught at Navy Postgraduate School in Monterey. > > > He took a break in 1972, to complete his PhD at University of > Washington. > > > > > > He wrote 8008 and 8080 instruction set simulators for Intel, and they > > loaned him hardware. > > > > > > In 1973? he wrote CP/M. > > > He offered it to Intel, but they didn't want it, although they marketed > > the PL/M. > > > > > > He and his wife started "Intergalactic Digital Research" in Pacific > > Grove. Later renamed "Digital Research, Inc." > > > > > > CP/M rapidly became a defacto standard as operating system for 8080 and > > later Z80 computers. > > > > > > In the late 1970s, when CP/M computers were available with 5.25" > drives, > > and there were hundreds, soon thousands of different formats, I chatted > > with Gary, and pleaded with him ot create a "standard" format for 5.25". > > > His response was a very polite, "The standard format for CP/M is 8 inch > > single sided single density." > > > I pointed out that formats were proliferating excessively. > > > His response was a very polite, "I understand. Sorry, but the standard > > format for CP/M is 8 inch single sided single density." > > > > > > > > > In 1980? IBM was developing a personal computer. (y'all have heard of > > it) One of the IBM people had a Microsoft Softcard (Z80 plus CP/M) in his > > Apple. IBM went to Microsoft, to negotiate BASIC for the new machine, > and > > CP/M. > > > > > > Bill Gates explained and sent them to Digital Research. > > > > > > When the IBM representatives arrived, Gary was flying his plane up to > > Oakland to visit Bill Godbout. He hadn't seen a need to be present, and > > assumed that Dorothy would take care of the [presumably completely > routine] > > paperwork. While visiting Bill godbout, and delivering some software was > > important, it WAS something that a low level courier could have done. > > > > > > > > > There was a little bit of a culture clash. > > > The IBM people were all in identical blue suits. > > > The DR people were in sandals, barefoot, shorts, t-shirts, braless > > women, with bicycles, surfboard, plants and even cats in the office, > > > > > > The IBM people demanded a signed non=3Ddisclosure ageement before > talking. > > Dorothy Kildall refused. > > > > > > When Dorothy got Gary on the phone, it is unreliably reported that he > > said, "well, let them sit on the couch and wait their turn like the rest > of > > the customers." > > > > > > It is also been said that DR people upstairs saw the IBM people > marching > > up, and thought that it was a drug raid. I have stood in that bay window > > overlooking the front door, and can believe that. > > > > > > IBM chose to not do business with DR and went back to Microsoft. > > > When billg was unable to convince them that Microsoft was not in the > > operating system business, Microsoft went into the operating system > > business. They bought an unlimited license to QDOS (Tim Paterson's work > at > > Seattle Computer Products). They also hired Tim Paterson. > > > > > > DR was working on CP/M-86, but it was a ways off. > > > Paterson had written QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") as a > > placeholder to be able to continue development while waiting for CP/M-86 > > > We've mentioned before, that Tim Paterson got the idea for the > directory > > structure from Microsoft Standalone BASIC. As Chuck pointed out, that > was > > not a new invention, merely a choice of which way to do it. > > > > > > billg knew how to deal with officious managers. It is unreliably said > > that he told the Microsoft people, "Everybody who does not own a suit, > stay > > home tomorrow!" > > > > > > IBM insisted that Micorsoft beef up security. window shades, locks on > > doors that normally weren't, locks on file cabinets, etc. > > > It is unreliably said that to throw off anyboy who heard about it, that > > Microsoft referred to the IBm project as "Project Commodore" > > > > > > > > > > > > dr continued to sell CP/M. > > > When the 5150/:PC was ready, IBM announced it with PC-DOS, which was a > > renaming of MS-DOS,renaming 86-DOS, renaming QDOS. > > > > > > If I recall correctly theprice was $40 (or maybe $60?) > > > > > > > > > DR pointed out that NS-DOS was extremely similar to CP/M. > > > > > > https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~johnsojr/2012-13/fall/cs370/resources/An%20Insid= e%20Look%20at%20MS-DOS.pdf > > > IBM didn't consider it a problem, andsimply offered to ALSO sell > > CP/M-86, particularly since they were already also marketing UCSD > P-System. > > > > > > CP/M-86 was not available yet, so everybody buying a disk based PC > > bought PC-DOS. > > > But, most of us assumed thata CP/M-86 would become the standard once it > > came out, and PC-DOS was similar and let us use the machines while > waiting. > > > > > > CP/M-86 took a long time to come out (6 months is a LONG time in such > > things). > > > When it did, the price was $240. > > > There are disagreemnets about whether DR or IBM had set the price > point. > > > > > > Most decided to keep using Pc-DOs until CP/M-86 had caught on. > > > But with the price differential, and the lead, PC-DOS remained the > > standard. > > > > > > > > > dr continued, came out with MP/M-86, and eventually came out with > > "Concurrent DOS", and "DR-DOS", which was based on MS-DOS. > > > Microsoft could not fault somebody for copying them, when it was the > > ones that they had copied. > > > No, Microsoft could certainly not claim trademark status for "DOS"! > > > In fact, although Microsoft trademarkd "MS-DOS", IBM did NOT trademark > > PC-DOS, saying that it just meant Personal Compter Disk Operating System, > > which is a description, not a unique name. In 1987, I visited the Patent > > and Trademark Office outside of Washington, DC, and personally confirmed > > that in their stacks. > > > > > > Many people have said that blowing off IBM was the stupidest move in > the > > history of stupid moves. > > > Other people insist that blowing off IBM was the BRAVEST move in > history. > > > > > > > > > A lot of people gave Gary flack about it. > > > eventually, he bagan drinking. > > > > > > On July 8, 1994, Gary fell and hit his head. It is unclear whether that > > was during an altercation. (A lot of people fall during bar brawls) It > > was at the Franklin Street biker Bar & Grill, Investigation as a > potential > > homicide was inconclusive. > > > > > > > > > About 10 years ago, I was in Pacific Grove, and visited the DR house on > > Lighthouse street. An extremely hospitable fellow had recently bought it > > in a foreclosure sale. At the time that he bought it, he was unaware of > > the historical significance. He let me wander through the whole place, > > looking out the upstairs window at the walkway, etc. > > > > > > -- > > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > > > > --===============1140205027637857979==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Thu May 9 14:04:26 2024 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 15:04:20 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7176769334258411580==" --===============7176769334258411580== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 09/05/2024 14:28, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > German snake oil wizards to the rescue! The "Atomstromfilter" (nuclear > power filter) joke product has been making the rounds in Germany for > at _least_ 20+y now:https://traumshop.net/produkt/atomstromfilter/ > > It claims to filter power generated by nuclear power plants out of > your power flow at the wall socket ;-) > Sorry, but that's clearly rubbish: it's way, way too cheap. Mind you, there are none on eBay UK, so maybe I could put some up at a bargain price ... £3500 too much? (I was going to add  a tin foil hat too, to save on postage, but those are already on eBay :-() Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============7176769334258411580==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Thu May 9 15:52:25 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 16:52:02 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3108630637325970503==" --===============3108630637325970503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 1:08 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I meant UCSD not native Pascal. I assume the SAGE was popular with those > who bought them, but relative to the PC, quite obscure of a computer. Most > people today have little knowledge of the SAGE II / IV. How many even > exist today? A hundred? A trivial data point, but a Sage II along with a somewhat-related Stride 440 (68020 CPU running the P-system) exist in my collection. -tony --===============3108630637325970503==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 9 15:53:07 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 10:52:55 -0500 Message-ID: <10459889-763c-4358-a385-85caff9db9d5@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6807150017824032223==" --===============6807150017824032223== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is an article on it but I still think it's total bunk: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/cd-dvd-demagnetization/ On 5/9/2024 9:04 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 09/05/2024 14:28, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: >> German snake oil wizards to the rescue! The "Atomstromfilter" (nuclear >> power filter) joke product has been making the rounds in Germany for >> at _least_ 20+y now:https://traumshop.net/produkt/atomstromfilter/ >> >> It claims to filter power generated by nuclear power plants out of >> your power flow at the wall socket ;-) >> > > Sorry, but that's clearly rubbish: it's way, way too cheap. Mind you, > there are none on eBay UK, so maybe I could put some up at a bargain > price ... £3500 too much? > > > (I was going to add  a tin foil hat too, to save on postage, but those > are already on eBay :-() > > > Antonio > > --===============6807150017824032223==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu May 9 16:25:06 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 09:24:51 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <10459889-763c-4358-a385-85caff9db9d5@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2477886142287536613==" --===============2477886142287536613== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 8:53=E2=80=AFAM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > This is an article on it but I still think it's total bunk: > > https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/cd-dvd-demagnetization/ "There is now research to suggest that demagnetization of computer discs (including CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD, DVD-R, and other similar disc media) *result in reduced block error rates*." It's still the same data coming off the medium, whether it has reduced block error rates or not. This is so comically horseshitient that I'm just going to go revolutionize audio with bold new claims that I'm an Audio Shaman that can exorcise your gear to clean it of the dark spirits that are haunting your audio signal, introducing "audio ghosting" that possesses the listener and affects how they perceive and therefore hear the music. I will change the listener's perception by spiritually cleansing their equipment. For $9,999 (plus room and board in the most lavish local hotel) I will visit you in person and conduct the ceremony in front of your setup. And change your perception. Taking bookings now, don't wait as slots fill up fast. Sellam --===============2477886142287536613==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 9 16:48:33 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 12:48:03 -0400 Message-ID: <0ED5CB50-B419-4F18-9F3B-4F13AC787ED1@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1671281904345402267==" --===============1671281904345402267== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 9, 2024, at 9:28 AM, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Wed, May 08, 2024 at 07:09:58PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> More here: >>>> https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/audiophile_ac_outl= ets.htm >>>> If I knew that this stuff wasn't real, I'd figure that it was an April >>>> Fool's prank. >>=20 >> On Wed, 8 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> Why stop there? A truly dedicated audiophile would run new pure silver >>> electrical wire through the walls directly to the breaker box. >>> Then you gotta upgrade to the breaker box that was disinfected from >>> transient spirits through an exorcism, and then special 24K solid >>> gold-contact breakers in inert nylon housings. >>=20 >> But, how much good will that do, if you don't also upgrade the drop from t= he >> pole? >>=20 >> . . . and, do you know whether the electrons that you are receiving are fr= om >> nuclear, hydro, solar, wind, or fossil? >=20 > German snake oil wizards to the rescue! The "Atomstromfilter" (nuclear > power filter) joke product has been making the rounds in Germany for > at _least_ 20+y now: https://traumshop.net/produkt/atomstromfilter/ >=20 > It claims to filter power generated by nuclear power plants out of > your power flow at the wall socket ;-) That's a wonderful joke site. They don't make it really obvious, but product= s like a "dark LED" and "frozen hot water" are a hint. paul --===============1671281904345402267==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 17:28:35 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 10:28:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0ED5CB50-B419-4F18-9F3B-4F13AC787ED1@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6697077801854839482==" --===============6697077801854839482== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> German snake oil wizards to the rescue! The "Atomstromfilter" (nuclear >> power filter) joke product has been making the rounds in Germany for >> at _least_ 20+y now: https://traumshop.net/produkt/atomstromfilter/ >> It claims to filter power generated by nuclear power plants out of >> your power flow at the wall socket ;-) On Thu, 9 May 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > That's a wonderful joke site. They don't make it really obvious, but > products like a "dark LED" and "frozen hot water" are a hint. . . . actually, . . . want clear, instead of cloudy ice cubes? If you fill your ice cube trays with hot water, instead of cold, it will take longer to freeze, but the air in the fresh tap water will dissipate, and give you clearer ice cubes. It is a well-known caterer's trick. --===============6697077801854839482==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Thu May 9 18:02:32 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 14:01:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1896338159886138708==" --===============1896338159886138708== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How much extra to turn my deadly lead pipes into gold while you're here? On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 12:43=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 8:53=E2=80=AFAM Mike Katz via cctalk > > wrote: > > > This is an article on it but I still think it's total bunk: > > > > https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/cd-dvd-demagnetization/ > > > "There is now research to suggest that demagnetization of computer discs > (including CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD, DVD-R, and other similar disc > media) *result > in reduced block error rates*." > > It's still the same data coming off the medium, whether it has reduced > block error rates or not. > > This is so comically horseshitient that I'm just going to go revolutionize > audio with bold new claims that I'm an Audio Shaman that can exorcise your > gear to clean it of the dark spirits that are haunting your audio signal, > introducing "audio ghosting" that possesses the listener and affects how > they perceive and therefore hear the music. I will change the listener's > perception by spiritually cleansing their equipment. > > For $9,999 (plus room and board in the most lavish local hotel) I will > visit you in person and conduct the ceremony in front of your setup. And > change your perception. > > Taking bookings now, don't wait as slots fill up fast. > > Sellam > --===============1896338159886138708==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 18:11:09 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 11:11:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0227259354042002188==" --===============0227259354042002188== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 9 May 2024, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > How much extra to turn my deadly lead pipes into gold while you're here? Alchemist servicess are kinda expensive. Could you get away with just gold plating them? --===============0227259354042002188==-- From commodorejohn@gmail.com Thu May 9 19:23:48 2024 From: John To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 12:23:37 -0700 Message-ID: <20240509122337.00004a3c@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <171527400770.2847341.17628681434849060091@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3637726469940199704==" --===============3637726469940199704== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Pascal never really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? > I can be convinced otherwise but it seems like microcomputing Pascal > was more of a staging environment for then upload into a production > mainframe/mini Pascal was the language of choice over at Apple in the original MacOS days, and as Mike has noted Turbo Pascal was popular enough on the PC; it was more, I think, that the UCSD-style language-environment-as-OS paradigm never caught on in the microcomputer world. Early consumer micros of course had ROM BASIC, but once you got past that to a reasonably full-featured operating system, there was no compelling reason for it to be tightly coupled to one particular language/compiler when it could just as easily treat compilers as Yet Another Program and support arbitrarily many. --===============3637726469940199704==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Thu May 9 19:31:17 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: New VCF Video bumper Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 14:31:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6738681890333614714==" --===============6738681890333614714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you know who your demographic or age is that you're trying to attract to watch the videos? On Fri, May 3, 2024, 10:45 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Vintage Computer Federation is looking for a new bumper to add to the > front and back of all their new videos. > There are 7 different versions. Vote on the one that you like best! > > https://forms.gle/Y9Qrj26xokeFXjub6 > --===============6738681890333614714==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 20:36:16 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #1 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 13:36:11 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2188968052493024657==" --===============2188968052493024657== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did not make it to the list, so I am breaking it up and re-sending it in=20 pieces > Without doing the research before asking, there was the UCSD p-System > Pascal for IBM PC which came out very early in the history of the IBM PC. > It was not very popular. In the original 5150 launch (August 1981), the operating systems announced we= re=20 availability of PC-DOS and/or UCSD P-System, and CP/M-86 was "coming soon". --===============2188968052493024657==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 20:37:08 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #2 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 13:37:02 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5266108858112078488==" --===============5266108858112078488== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The SAGE II that had native Pascal (68000) was > not a popular machine. Waterloo Pascal on the SuperPet....Pascal never > really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? Bob Wallace (Microsoft's tenth employee) wrote the Micorsoft MS-DOS Pascal=20 compiler. He told me not to use the runtime library, which was also then=20 included with Microsoft Fortran, etc. Later, he left Microsoft when an=20 appointment became necessary to talk to billg, and formed "Quicksoft", sellin= g=20 PC-Write (a significant player in "shareware") --===============5266108858112078488==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 20:38:01 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 13:37:57 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6440205369163340098==" --===============6440205369163340098== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Turbo-Pascal was quite popular. At the annnouncement of it (West Coast=20 Computer Faire), Phillipe Kahn (Borland) was so inundated with "yeah, but wha= t=20 about C?" questions, that by the end of the first day, "Turbo C is coming soo= n" --===============6440205369163340098==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 20:39:08 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #4 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 13:39:03 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0855795308439328094==" --===============0855795308439328094== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At NCC - Anaheim, I bought John Draper lunch (I never exercised with him) for= a=20 quick consultation about P-system directory structure. I added some P-system= =20 formats into XenoCopy a week later. --===============0855795308439328094==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 20:40:08 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #5 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 13:40:03 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6778337383958476634==" --===============6778337383958476634== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable UCSD P-system could only allocate contiguous disk space. So a disk that had = become "checkerboarded" by writing and deletng files had to be defragmented, = using a spplied utility called "Crunch". Was that adequately protected against catastrophes caused by interruption? Softech and UCSD Regents filed trademark registration for "XenoFile", and=20 listed it as a product, but as near as I can tell, NEVER sent out any copies. (February 1987, I went to the Patent and Trademark Office outside of=20 Washington, Dc, and researched some trademarks, in preparation for my tradema= rk=20 registration) They also announced a "universal disk format" for ALL machines, but never had= a=20 clue about how to do anything compatible with FM, MFM, and GCR. --===============6778337383958476634==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 20:46:03 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #6 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 13:45:57 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4271371601430850536==" --===============4271371601430850536== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK This seems to be the one that the list choked on (possibly due to special quote characters? On Thu, May 9, 2024, 2:07 AM david barto via cctalk = =20 wrote: > At Ken Bowles retirement from UCSD (Ken was the lead of the UCSD Pascal > Project) he related a story that IBM came to UCSD after being "rejected" > by DR to see if the Regents of the University would license UCSD Pascal (the > OS and the language) to IBM for release on the new hardware IBM was > developing. The UC Regents said "no" > He was quite sad that history took the very different course. well, it wasn't quite a "rejected by DR". But, the culture clash certainly d= id=20 strengthen IBM's desire for CP/M alternatives. And, they DID cut a deal with= =20 Softech/UCSD-Regents to have UCSD P-system as one of the original operating=20 systems for the 5150. The "very different course" of the market going with CP/M and MS-DOS, rather = than P-System, was due to many factors. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4271371601430850536==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Thu May 9 20:53:15 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnetization [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 21:52:58 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <02435bf6-c852-4ebe-8266-62322d282a06@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9051069798712638335==" --===============9051069798712638335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Best to have an atmosphere of dry nitrogen, too. Breathing that may take some practice. On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 11:19 AM Antonio Carlini via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 09/05/2024 03:41, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > Next they'll want silver oxygen free plated plumbing and sewage pipes in > their homes. Silver plated toilet seats? > > > > Walls insulated with Palladium coated corn silk threads? > > > > Seems the subject has really gone astray?.... Lions, Tigers and Bears oh > my! 😲) > > > > Don Resor > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > > Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2024 7:01 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Sellam Abraham > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double > Density 3.5" Floppy Disks] > > > > Why stop there? A truly dedicated audiophile would run new pure silver > electrical wire through the walls directly to the breaker box. > > > > Then you gotta upgrade to the breaker box that was disinfected from > transient spirits through an exorcism, and then special 24K solid > gold-contact breakers in inert nylon housings. > > Surely you have to get the cables upgraded all the way back to the > original generator? Then you have secondary effects, for example, with > hydro power, the purity of the water makes a *huge* difference. > > > I also think it's just as important to have your ears, and the gap > between them syringed too. > > > Antonio > > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio(a)acarlini.com > > --===============9051069798712638335==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu May 9 21:44:36 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 14:44:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5458089723786957023==" --===============5458089723786957023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 1:38=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Turbo-Pascal was quite popular. At the annnouncement of it (West Coast > Computer Faire), Phillipe Kahn (Borland) was so inundated with "yeah, but > what > about C?" questions, that by the end of the first day, "Turbo C is coming > soon" > I learned on Turbo C. It was a fantastic little IDE. Sellam --===============5458089723786957023==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu May 9 21:45:29 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #4 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 14:45:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8121389979151021630==" --===============8121389979151021630== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 1:48=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > At NCC - Anaheim, I bought John Draper lunch (I never exercised with him) Those in the know chuckled. Sellam --===============8121389979151021630==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Thu May 9 22:10:42 2024 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 15:10:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3216458844131996953==" --===============3216458844131996953== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone used Oh Pascal book while working on Turbo Pascal? I coded a memory vi= ewer that was similar to Norton Utilities and PC Tools at the time for CP/M o= n Epson QX10 using Pascal. It was somewhere between 83 and 85 Regards, Tarek Hoteit AI Consultant, PhD +1 360-838-3675 > On May 9, 2024, at 13:38, Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFTurbo-Pascal was quite popular. At the annnouncement of it (West = Coast Computer Faire), Phillipe Kahn (Borland) was so inundated with "yeah, b= ut what about C?" questions, that by the end of the first day, "Turbo C is co= ming soon" --===============3216458844131996953==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 22:10:50 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 15:10:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7270288779077762488==" --===============7270288779077762488== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Turbo-Pascal was quite popular. At the annnouncement of it (West Coast >> Computer Faire), Phillipe Kahn (Borland) was so inundated with "yeah, >> but what about C?" questions, that by the end of the first day, "Turbo >> C is coming soon" On Thu, 9 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I learned on Turbo C. It was a fantastic little IDE. I have heard that Pascal was originally developed for TEACHING programming. Turbo Pascal makes that easier. In my C programming classes, for every homework assignment, I required that the students submit the output (screen print), a source file, and a screen print of the portion of the directory, to show that they had created a source file and an executable file. And that the executable file was created AFTER the source file was created; a surprising number were NOT. We had available Turbo C and Quick C, as well as Microsoft C compiler, DeSmet ("Personal C"), and GCC compilers. and occasionally a few others. I required that each student had to do one program in an IDE, and one with a command line compiler. After they had shown that they COULD do both, then they could use whatever they wanted for subsequent assignments. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7270288779077762488==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 9 22:43:40 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 15:43:26 -0700 Message-ID: <2abd3bd5-698a-4f5b-a3b0-7656e21aea6c@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3040014492121945721==" --===============3040014492121945721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/9/24 15:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Turbo-Pascal was quite popular.  At the annnouncement of it (West >>> Coast Computer Faire), Phillipe Kahn (Borland) was so inundated with >>> "yeah, but what about C?" questions, that by the end of the first >>> day, "Turbo C is coming soon" > > On Thu, 9 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> I learned on Turbo C.  It was a fantastic little IDE. > > I have heard that Pascal was originally developed for TEACHING programming. > Turbo Pascal makes that easier. The first versions of Pascal lacked any I/O specification. About a decade ago, I retrieved an early version of Pascal (source) written on the CDC 6000 from a batch of tapes from UIUC: (********************************************************* * * * * * COMPILER FOR PASCAL 6000 - 3.4 * * ****************************** * * * * * * RELEASE 2 MARCH 1976 * * * * * * * * CDC SCIENTIFIC CHAR SET VERSION * * (00B AND 63B ARE TREATED IDENTICALLY) * * * * AUTHOR% URS AMMANN * * INSTITUT FUER INFORMATIK * * EIDG. TECHNISCHE HOCHSCHULE * * CH-8006 ZUERICH * * * *********************************************************) Apparently, the collection had a listing, but not machine-readable source code. That turned up on one of my tapes, so I forwarded it on. You can see the whole shebang at http://pascal.hansotten.com/niklaus-wirth/cdc-6000-pascal-compilers/ I've written code in Pascal, as well as Modula-2. Never liked it--seemed to be a bit awkward for the low-level stuff that I was doing. --Chuck --===============3040014492121945721==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 9 22:46:44 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 16:46:33 -0600 Message-ID: <6e73ba5e-200a-470b-8e08-a65acb27f584@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <20240509122337.00004a3c@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0396521104589157125==" --===============0396521104589157125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-05-09 1:23 p.m., John via cctalk wrote: >> Pascal never really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? > >> I can be convinced otherwise but it seems like microcomputing Pascal >> was more of a staging environment for then upload into a production >> mainframe/mini > > Pascal was the language of choice over at Apple in the original MacOS > days, and as Mike has noted Turbo Pascal was popular enough on the PC; > it was more, I think, that the UCSD-style language-environment-as-OS > paradigm never caught on in the microcomputer world. Early consumer > micros of course had ROM BASIC, but once you got past that to a > reasonably full-featured operating system, there was no compelling > reason for it to be tightly coupled to one particular language/compiler > when it could just as easily treat compilers as Yet Another Program and > support arbitrarily many. And every one maxed out with small model for the IBM PC, and 48K for CP/M. Did any one make a REAL TIME OS the 386? --===============0396521104589157125==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu May 9 23:05:17 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 18:05:11 -0500 Message-ID: <328565206.11225272.1715295911618@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <6e73ba5e-200a-470b-8e08-a65acb27f584@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3129632873294555069==" --===============3129632873294555069== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 05/09/2024 5:46 PM CDT ben via cctalk wrote: > > Did any one make a REAL TIME OS the 386? There were / are quite a few. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_real-time_operating_systems The 386ex was specifically intended for embedded systems. The first one that came to mind, and caused me to find that list, was RTEMS t= hat I think was originally written on/for the 386. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTEMS Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============3129632873294555069==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Thu May 9 23:10:36 2024 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC Qbus/Massbus? Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 23:10:30 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7037562322145807449==" --===============7037562322145807449== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was there ever a massbus controller card for qbus systems? 73 Eugene W2HX My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos --===============7037562322145807449==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 9 23:31:26 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 19:31:19 -0400 Message-ID: <3466D222-CB4F-411D-911F-9BE2E7DB3206@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <2abd3bd5-698a-4f5b-a3b0-7656e21aea6c@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1525299956623280395==" --===============1525299956623280395== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 9, 2024, at 6:43 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > I've written code in Pascal, as well as Modula-2. Never liked > it--seemed to be a bit awkward for the low-level stuff that I was doing. Not surprising, since that's not what it is all about. Both, like their pred= ecessor ALGOL-60 as well as successors like Ada, are strongly typed languages= where doing unsafe stuff is made very hard. Contrast that with C, which set= s out to make it easy to do unsafe things and partly for that reason has a fe= eble type system. So doing low level stuff like device drivers is difficult,= unless you create extensions to break out of the type system. An example of= how to do that is the Burroughs extension of ALGOL called ESPOL, which is wh= at they used to write the OS. Actually, Burroughs did a number of extended v= ersions for different purposes; there's also DCALGOL (Data comm ALGOL) intend= ed for writing communications software. Why that's separate from ESPOL I don= 't really know; I only ever got to do regular ALGOL programming on Burroughs = mainframes. One reason for that: those systems depend on the compilers for t= heir security; if ordinary users got access to ESPOL they could write dangero= us code, but in ALGOL they cannot. paul --===============1525299956623280395==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Thu May 9 23:31:32 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 19:30:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2abd3bd5-698a-4f5b-a3b0-7656e21aea6c@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3091294938542037736==" --===============3091294938542037736== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a source code tape for Pascal on a CDC 6600 from CDC in France. I am not sure which version it is. On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 6:43=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/9/24 15:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> Turbo-Pascal was quite popular. At the annnouncement of it (West > >>> Coast Computer Faire), Phillipe Kahn (Borland) was so inundated with > >>> "yeah, but what about C?" questions, that by the end of the first > >>> day, "Turbo C is coming soon" > > > > On Thu, 9 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > >> I learned on Turbo C. It was a fantastic little IDE. > > > > I have heard that Pascal was originally developed for TEACHING > programming. > > Turbo Pascal makes that easier. > > The first versions of Pascal lacked any I/O specification. > > About a decade ago, I retrieved an early version of Pascal (source) > written on the CDC 6000 from a batch of tapes from UIUC: > > (********************************************************* > * * > * * > * COMPILER FOR PASCAL 6000 - 3.4 * > * ****************************** * > * * > * * > * RELEASE 2 MARCH 1976 * > * * > * * > * * > * CDC SCIENTIFIC CHAR SET VERSION * > * (00B AND 63B ARE TREATED IDENTICALLY) * > * * > * AUTHOR% URS AMMANN * > * INSTITUT FUER INFORMATIK * > * EIDG. TECHNISCHE HOCHSCHULE * > * CH-8006 ZUERICH * > * * > *********************************************************) > > Apparently, the collection had a listing, but not machine-readable > source code. That turned up on one of my tapes, so I forwarded it on. > > You can see the whole shebang at > http://pascal.hansotten.com/niklaus-wirth/cdc-6000-pascal-compilers/ > > I've written code in Pascal, as well as Modula-2. Never liked > it--seemed to be a bit awkward for the low-level stuff that I was doing. > > --Chuck > > --=20 Michael Thompson --===============3091294938542037736==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 9 23:32:32 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 19:32:06 -0400 Message-ID: <32838DD8-3352-4CCF-A916-2B15B81A1561@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <328565206.11225272.1715295911618@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6169289422549735387==" --===============6169289422549735387== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 9, 2024, at 7:05 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 05/09/2024 5:46 PM CDT ben via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >=20 >> Did any one make a REAL TIME OS the 386? >=20 > There were / are quite a few. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_real-time_operating_systems >=20 > The 386ex was specifically intended for embedded systems. >=20 > The first one that came to mind, and caused me to find that list, was RTEMS= that I think was originally written on/for the 386. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTEMS RTEMS is still around. I still have a uc/OS book, though I haven't used that RTOS. paul --===============6169289422549735387==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 9 23:56:06 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 16:55:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3466D222-CB4F-411D-911F-9BE2E7DB3206@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6712990557032526875==" --===============6712990557032526875== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> ... >> I've written code in Pascal, as well as Modula-2. Never liked >> it--seemed to be a bit awkward for the low-level stuff that I was doing. On Thu, 9 May 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Not surprising, since that's not what it is all about. Both, like their > predecessor ALGOL-60 as well as successors like Ada, are strongly typed > languages where doing unsafe stuff is made very hard. Contrast that > with C, which sets out to make it easy to do unsafe things and partly > for that reason has a feeble type system. So doing low level stuff like > device drivers is difficult, unless you create extensions to break out > of the type system. An example of how to do that is the Burroughs > extension of ALGOL called ESPOL, which is what they used to write the > OS. Actually, Burroughs did a number of extended versions for different > purposes; there's also DCALGOL (Data comm ALGOL) intended for writing > communications software. Why that's separate from ESPOL I don't really > know; I only ever got to do regular ALGOL programming on Burroughs > mainframes. One reason for that: those systems depend on the compilers > for their security; if ordinary users got access to ESPOL they could > write dangerous code, but in ALGOL they cannot. One of the things that _I_ love about C is that it is easy to get it out of the way when you want to do something lower level. Rather than feeble type system, it could have had a requirement to explicitly "cast" anything being used as a "wrong" type. One of Alan Holub's books about C is titled "Enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot" Each language has its own specialty. And you need to find the one that fits you best. It used to be (and likely still is), that every computer science grad student created a new language. A requirement (usually UNSPOKEN) was that the compiler be able to compile itself. That the language compiler is written (actually normally RE-written) in that language and compiled by that compiler. That certainly seems to bias things towards languages that are well suited for writing compilers! If you were to create a language that was specializzed for something completely different, and poorly suited for writing compilers, then it would not be respected. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6712990557032526875==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri May 10 00:10:50 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 20:10:40 -0400 Message-ID: <74C0C94D-E27F-4A88-8004-DCA9AB8185E7@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7820654432564636409==" --===============7820654432564636409== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 9, 2024, at 7:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >>> ... >>> I've written code in Pascal, as well as Modula-2. Never liked >>> it--seemed to be a bit awkward for the low-level stuff that I was doing. >=20 > On Thu, 9 May 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Not surprising, since that's not what it is all about. Both, like their p= redecessor ALGOL-60 as well as successors like Ada, are strongly typed langua= ges where doing unsafe stuff is made very hard. Contrast that with C, which = sets out to make it easy to do unsafe things and partly for that reason has a= feeble type system. So doing low level stuff like device drivers is difficu= lt, unless you create extensions to break out of the type system. An example= of how to do that is the Burroughs extension of ALGOL called ESPOL, which is= what they used to write the OS. Actually, Burroughs did a number of extende= d versions for different purposes; there's also DCALGOL (Data comm ALGOL) int= ended for writing communications software. Why that's separate from ESPOL I = don't really know; I only ever got to do regular ALGOL programming on Burroug= hs mainframes. One reason for that: those systems depend on the compilers fo= r their security; if ordinary users got access to ESPOL they could write dang= erous code, but in ALGOL they cannot. >=20 > One of the things that _I_ love about C is that it is easy to get it out of= the way when you want to do something lower level. >=20 > Rather than feeble type system, it could have had a requirement to explicit= ly "cast" anything being used as a "wrong" type. >=20 > One of Alan Holub's books about C is titled > "Enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot" True, and Stroustrup added that "and C++ is a cannon that blows off your enti= re leg". > Each language has its own specialty. And you need to find the one that fit= s you best. >=20 > It used to be (and likely still is), that every computer science grad stude= nt created a new language. A requirement (usually UNSPOKEN) was that the com= piler be able to compile itself. That the language compiler is written (actu= ally normally RE-written) in that language and compiled by that compiler. Th= at certainly seems to bias things towards languages that are well suited for = writing compilers! If you were to create a language that was specializzed fo= r something completely different, and poorly suited for writing compilers, th= en it would not be respected. If you don't mind the total lack of protection, FORTH is very nice: it even m= ore easily than C lets you do low level things, and it is also very small. A= nd the implementation is by definition entirely extensible. A large FORTH pr= ogram I wrote in the 1980s, on PDP-11 FORTH, starts out by redefining the lan= guage as a 32-bit version. I still remember a classmate of mine, who told me when we were both at DEC th= at he had written an expression parser in COBOL. I think he also tried to do= one in RPG but found it was too hard. paul --===============7820654432564636409==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Fri May 10 00:17:09 2024 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 18:16:49 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <74C0C94D-E27F-4A88-8004-DCA9AB8185E7@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5593811669541422982==" --===============5593811669541422982== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 9, 2024, 6:10=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On May 9, 2024, at 7:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > >>> ... > >>> I've written code in Pascal, as well as Modula-2. Never liked > >>> it--seemed to be a bit awkward for the low-level stuff that I was > doing. > > > > On Thu, 9 May 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> Not surprising, since that's not what it is all about. Both, like > their predecessor ALGOL-60 as well as successors like Ada, are strongly > typed languages where doing unsafe stuff is made very hard. Contrast that > with C, which sets out to make it easy to do unsafe things and partly for > that reason has a feeble type system. So doing low level stuff like device > drivers is difficult, unless you create extensions to break out of the type > system. An example of how to do that is the Burroughs extension of ALGOL > called ESPOL, which is what they used to write the OS. Actually, Burroughs > did a number of extended versions for different purposes; there's also > DCALGOL (Data comm ALGOL) intended for writing communications software. > Why that's separate from ESPOL I don't really know; I only ever got to do > regular ALGOL programming on Burroughs mainframes. One reason for that: > those systems depend on the compilers for their security; if ordinary users > got access to ESPOL they could write dangerous code, but in ALGOL they > cannot. > > > > One of the things that _I_ love about C is that it is easy to get it out > of the way when you want to do something lower level. > > > > Rather than feeble type system, it could have had a requirement to > explicitly "cast" anything being used as a "wrong" type. > > > > One of Alan Holub's books about C is titled > > "Enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot" > > True, and Stroustrup added that "and C++ is a cannon that blows off your > entire leg". > The other joke is that C++ lets you shoot off the 27 identical legs you didn't know you had... Warner > Each language has its own specialty. And you need to find the one that > fits you best. > > > > It used to be (and likely still is), that every computer science grad > student created a new language. A requirement (usually UNSPOKEN) was that > the compiler be able to compile itself. That the language compiler is > written (actually normally RE-written) in that language and compiled by > that compiler. That certainly seems to bias things towards languages that > are well suited for writing compilers! If you were to create a language > that was specializzed for something completely different, and poorly suited > for writing compilers, then it would not be respected. > > If you don't mind the total lack of protection, FORTH is very nice: it > even more easily than C lets you do low level things, and it is also very > small. And the implementation is by definition entirely extensible. A > large FORTH program I wrote in the 1980s, on PDP-11 FORTH, starts out by > redefining the language as a 32-bit version. > > I still remember a classmate of mine, who told me when we were both at DEC > that he had written an expression parser in COBOL. I think he also tried > to do one in RPG but found it was too hard. > > paul > > --===============5593811669541422982==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri May 10 00:26:08 2024 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC Qbus/Massbus? Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 20:26:01 -0400 Message-ID: <99bad864-71f0-4b19-9185-c80bd98f4245@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB526937FE5B5ED46C58DAC737B5E62=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7258094820487792842==" --===============7258094820487792842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not as such. The RH11 was not replicated on Q Bus because Q-Bus was made for small disks for a long time and I think DEC didn't want to undercut the sale of Unibus. That said, I have run into 11/23 systems that used RM02's with a Plessy Quniverter. Works fine enough, but only 18 bit memory support of course which kind of does suck. The more common thing to do was run something like an Emulex SMD controller which could handle 22 bits (you did have to patch the drivers in RSX I think) and could run all sorts of devices (which did need solid patches). Or just run a proper MSCP controller, pref one with burst and block mode DMA (which could exceed the speed of the Unibus controllers). C On 5/9/2024 7:10 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Was there ever a massbus controller card for qbus systems? > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > --===============7258094820487792842==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri May 10 00:34:15 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 19:33:59 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3466D222-CB4F-411D-911F-9BE2E7DB3206@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7888095648889874300==" --===============7888095648889874300== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 6:31=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > On May 9, 2024, at 6:43 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ... > > I've written code in Pascal, as well as Modula-2. Never liked > > it--seemed to be a bit awkward for the low-level stuff that I was doing. > > Not surprising, since that's not what it is all about. Both, like their pr= edecessor ALGOL-60 as well as successors like Ada, are strongly typed languag= es where doing unsafe stuff is made very hard. HP chose Pascal as their system programming language when they came to rewrite the HP 3000's MPE Operating System onto PA-RISC to produce MPE/XL in the mid 80s. It had many extensions to solve the inherent limitations of standard Pascal, like the ability to have formal parameters which could receive actual values of any type, extensive pointer support, well-defined variant records, etc., etc. It remained the most popular language for writing low-level code inside HP and for customers as well, even after C became available. C (including GCC when we got POSIX support) was more commonly used to port open source stuff to the machine. We sold an early client-server retail POS system with a Classic MPE 3000 talking to HP-150 IIs over serial ports, which was written in PASCAL/V on the 3000 and Microsoft Pascal on the HP-150s. Even this earlier Pascal had sufficient extensions to get done what you needed to do without issue. --===============7888095648889874300==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 10 00:37:23 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 17:37:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240509122337.00004a3c@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3022422058899381117==" --===============3022422058899381117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 2:08 PM John via cctalk wrote: > Pascal was the language of choice over at Apple in the original MacOS > days, and as Mike has noted Turbo Pascal was popular enough on the PC; > it was more, I think, that the UCSD-style language-environment-as-OS > paradigm never caught on in the microcomputer world. Early consumer > micros of course had ROM BASIC, but once you got past that to a > reasonably full-featured operating system, there was no compelling > reason for it to be tightly coupled to one particular language/compiler > when it could just as easily treat compilers as Yet Another Program and > support arbitrarily many. > The UCSD shell was atrocious. The compiler was slow. The editor was terrible. The entire experience was reminiscent of working on a dumb terminal connected to a mainframe, when it could've taken advantage of the features of the personal computer. I hated it. I hate it. Sellam --===============3022422058899381117==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 10 00:46:26 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 17:46:09 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <74C0C94D-E27F-4A88-8004-DCA9AB8185E7@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7365169437429374231==" --===============7365169437429374231== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > On May 9, 2024, at 7:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > One of the things that _I_ love about C is that it is easy to get it out > of the way when you want to do something lower level. > > > > Rather than feeble type system, it could have had a requirement to > explicitly "cast" anything being used as a "wrong" type. > > > > One of Alan Holub's books about C is titled > > "Enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot" > > True, and Stroustrup added that "and C++ is a cannon that blows off your > entire leg". That's what compiler warnings are for: "Warning on line 33: you are about to blow your leg off." Sellam --===============7365169437429374231==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri May 10 00:50:42 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] GEM95 cable Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 20:50:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2989016112622144255==" --===============2989016112622144255== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a cable with two heads on one end and a rj45 phone connector on the other end. On the two-headed side is a 25-pin ( serial female RS232 ?) and 9-pin (serial female RS232 ?) The 25 pin adapter has a GEM95 sticker on it. What was this cable used for? BIll --===============2989016112622144255==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 10 00:59:11 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 17:58:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7228427100059916353==" --===============7228427100059916353== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/9/24 16:30, Michael Thompson wrote: > I have a source code tape for Pascal on a CDC 6600 from CDC in France. > I am not sure which version it is. Broadly speaking, there were only three major CDC versions; the 1972 original, the 1975 rewrite, and the (I think) 1980s version. There were intermediate versions, of course. I think that the 1975 version was widely used as a reference for many other implementations. But now comes the question, "Does one design a machine to a language or a language to a machine?" If you take the former course, you have the problem of not being able to implement features that the language designers didn't imagine. In the latter case, you wind up with a language that isn't easily made portable. C, being a "use at your own peril, and by the way, we have inline assembly language features" represents the former, but with lots of latitude. And it requires a certain amount of skill to use effectively. But heck, at CDC, we were writing FORTRAN programs that used negative subscripts. Who remembers SYMPL or CYBIL? LLL had their own extended dialect of FORTRAN, (LRLTRAN) which didn't have a single dialect. Consider the following, which addresses the problem of a standard language not having the necessary hardware implementation. https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/390015.808405 I was briefly immersed in this mess with F90 X3J3. IBM, DEC and other had their own idea of a vector language (e.g. VECTRAN) and didn't want to entertain the committee's proposals. Both threatened to pull out over this. How many programming languages are there (past and future)? The lists I can find are far from exhaustive. Note that the Pascal site I noted talks about CDC 6000 SCALLOP. Never heard of it--must have been a local ETH creation. --Chuck --===============7228427100059916353==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 10 01:09:47 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: GEM95 cable Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 18:09:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0710100790288726709==" --===============0710100790288726709== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/9/24 17:50, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have a cable with two heads on one end and a rj45 phone connector on the > other end. On the two-headed side is a 25-pin ( serial female RS232 ?) and > 9-pin (serial female RS232 ?) > > The 25 pin adapter has a GEM95 sticker on it. > > What was this cable used for? I've got a couple of similar adapters with 25 pin DSUB and an RJ25 (6p6c) receptacle on the other. They were used in office environments where one could share the telephone closet wiring with serial data. I don't know if this is the case for yours, however. --Chuck --===============0710100790288726709==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri May 10 01:16:19 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: GEM95 cable Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 21:16:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2193044714586017180==" --===============2193044714586017180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 9:09=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/9/24 17:50, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I have a cable with two heads on one end and a rj45 phone connector on > the > > other end. On the two-headed side is a 25-pin ( serial female RS232 ?) > and > > 9-pin (serial female RS232 ?) > > > > The 25 pin adapter has a GEM95 sticker on it. > > > > What was this cable used for? > > I've got a couple of similar adapters with 25 pin DSUB and an RJ25 > (6p6c) receptacle on the other. They were used in office environments > where one could share the telephone closet wiring with serial data. > > I don't know if this is the case for yours, however. > > --Chuck > Thanks Chuck. Makes sense. I am sorting cables (fun) and I was unsure about this one. Bill --===============2193044714586017180==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 10 01:38:48 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: GEM95 cable Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 18:38:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8355186341880724799==" --===============8355186341880724799== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/9/24 18:16, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks Chuck. Makes sense. I am sorting cables (fun) and I was unsure > about this one. Go on to Amazon and search for "cable RJ45 DB25" The things are apparently still in use. --Chuck --===============8355186341880724799==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Fri May 10 03:26:30 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #4 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 20:19:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4677330058475280914==" --===============4677330058475280914== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > At NCC - Anaheim, I bought John Draper lunch (I never exercised with him) So what you're saying is, you increased his energy level. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Isn't it odd how Mac users are loyal to Apple, but not always vice versa? = -- --===============4677330058475280914==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Fri May 10 03:32:11 2024 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF Southwest June 14-16, Dallas, TX - Preview livestream Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 23:31:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4391473700442373841==" --===============4391473700442373841== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The organizers of VCF Southwest will talk about the upcoming show this Saturday, May 11 at 6:30PM EDT : https://youtube.com/live/Y_4wr-Bml5M?feature=share More info on the show vcfsw.org Enjoy! Jeff Brace --===============4391473700442373841==-- From barto@kdbarto.org Fri May 10 05:51:00 2024 From: david barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 12:03:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2057121570.11090215.1715258713921@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0299651917051077827==" --===============0299651917051077827== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 9, 2024, at 5:45=E2=80=AFAM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 05/09/2024 7:24 AM CDT Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> Mike >> I was thinking operating systems and the early launch version IBM PC, but >> yes once the hardware caught up Turbo Pascal was a popular program now that >> I think about it. So I guess the PC versions just needed more horsepower >> and some useful libraries. But Pascal never matched C >> Bill >>=20 >=20 > My perception is that UCSD P system was quite popular in the late 70s on Ap= ple and other systems. Then when the university turned it over to commercial= marketing (SofTech?), the silly games played turned a lot of people off. Li= ke trying to revoke previously granted licenses and charging "too much." >=20 > I suspect that left a bad taste in a lot of mouths that might otherwise hav= e been interested. But I was a distant observer at the time; I couldn't aff= ord more than my ZX-81 and VIC-20. >=20 > Will >=20 SofTech MicroSystems to be specific. They spun it up specifically for UCSD Pa= scal and hired a lot of the projects students as their first engineers and ma= nagers. It was an interesting place to work, mostly because we (the students/= new employees) still had the UCSD development mindset and not the corporate p= hilosophy that SofTech wanted. Yes, They did the silly games and screwed up a good thing. UCSD Pascal IV.II = (4.2) was pretty good IIRC however it was too little/too late to the party. B= y then everything was MS/DOS and C was coming on strong even in the micro wor= ld. The fact that you had to run the P-System OS and the 64KB limit on addressing= didn=E2=80=99t help adoption. David --===============0299651917051077827==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri May 10 05:51:14 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #6 Date: Thu, 09 May 2024 16:06:34 -0500 Message-ID: <3c4d85b9-0d82-4262-b838-838a86437857@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3346637908131393792==" --===============3346637908131393792== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nicholas Wirth in his paper on Modula-2 about fixing the flaws in Pascal. In planning Modula-2, I saw it as a new version of Pascal, updated to the requirements of the time, and I seized the opportunity to correct various mistakes in Pascal’s design, such as, for example, the syntactic anomaly of the dangling “else”, the incomplete specification of procedure parameters, and others. Apart from relatively minor corrections and additions the primary innovation was that of modules. On 5/9/2024 3:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > OK > This seems to be the one that the list choked on > (possibly due to special quote characters? > > On Thu, May 9, 2024, 2:07 AM david barto via cctalk > wrote: >> At Ken Bowles retirement from UCSD (Ken was the lead of the UCSD Pascal >> Project) he related a story that IBM came to UCSD after being "rejected" >> by DR to see if the Regents of the University would license UCSD >> Pascal (the >> OS and the language) to IBM for release on the new hardware IBM was >> developing. The UC Regents said "no" >> He was quite sad that history took the very different course. > > well, it wasn't quite a "rejected by DR".  But, the culture clash > certainly did strengthen IBM's desire for CP/M alternatives.  And, > they DID cut a deal with Softech/UCSD-Regents to have UCSD P-system as > one of the original operating systems for the 5150. > The "very different course" of the market going with CP/M and MS-DOS, > rather than P-System, was due to many factors. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3346637908131393792==-- From curiousmarc3@gmail.com Fri May 10 08:08:42 2024 From: Curious Marc To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: New VCF Video bumper Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 01:08:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4158779384918965331==" --===============4158779384918965331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First one. Sounds vintage, is not musically annoying like most of the others,= and has a nice easter egg in it. Marc > On May 9, 2024, at 12:31=E2=80=AFPM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFDo you know who your demographic or age is that you're trying to a= ttract to > watch the videos? >=20 >> On Fri, May 3, 2024, 10:45 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> The Vintage Computer Federation is looking for a new bumper to add to the >> front and back of all their new videos. >> There are 7 different versions. Vote on the one that you like best! >>=20 >> https://forms.gle/Y9Qrj26xokeFXjub6 >>=20 --===============4158779384918965331==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri May 10 13:44:59 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 09:44:47 -0400 Message-ID: <4172C66F-22C2-4CEC-95FD-8B3BE60C50DC@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6174490490364011247==" --===============6174490490364011247== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 9, 2024, at 8:58 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 5/9/24 16:30, Michael Thompson wrote: >> I have a source code tape for Pascal on a CDC 6600 from CDC in France. >> I am not sure which version it is. >=20 > Broadly speaking, there were only three major CDC versions; the 1972 > original, the 1975 rewrite, and the (I think) 1980s version. There were > intermediate versions, of course. >=20 > I think that the 1975 version was widely used as a reference for many > other implementations. >=20 > But now comes the question, "Does one design a machine to a language or > a language to a machine?" If you take the former course, you have the > problem of not being able to implement features that the language > designers didn't imagine. In the latter case, you wind up with a > language that isn't easily made portable. Or neither. "Machine to a language" can be seen in the Burroughs mainframes = (ALGOL-60), in the IBM 360 (Fortran and COBOL) and perhaps some others. But = a lot of machines are not built to a particular language, certainly that's th= e case for most if not all modern machines. Some machines might have featur= es to optimize certainly languages while still being quite general; the "disp= lay" support in the Electrologica X8 is an example, but it is just as happy r= unning Fortran or LISP. As for "language to the machine" that's pretty much unheard of. While there = certainly are languages that only were seen on one or a few machines or archi= tectures -- SYMPL, CYBIL, BLISS, TUTOR -- it isn't because that was the inten= t of those languages. I suppose you could pose ESPOL as an example of a lang= uage for a machine, though I suspect it could have been generalized, as C was= , if there had been a desire to do so. paul --===============6174490490364011247==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 10 14:36:00 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 07:35:48 -0700 Message-ID: <48107f2a-6501-41f5-9e8c-b0f0b188188a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <4172C66F-22C2-4CEC-95FD-8B3BE60C50DC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2648380864440631120==" --===============2648380864440631120== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/10/24 06:44, Paul Koning wrote: > > As for "language to the machine" that's pretty much unheard of. While ther= e certainly are languages that only were seen on one or a few machines or arc= hitectures -- SYMPL, CYBIL, BLISS, TUTOR -- it isn't because that was the int= ent of those languages. I suppose you could pose ESPOL as an example of a la= nguage for a machine, though I suspect it could have been generalized, as C w= as, if there had been a desire to do so. There's a third class that I haven't (yet) mentioned. Design a machine to solve a particular problem or class of problems. Saxpy was such a machine; we have bitcoin ASICs and our latest AI ventures. What was the CM-1 programmed in? --Chuck --===============2648380864440631120==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri May 10 14:56:06 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help request with fundraising campaign to save historic computers Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 15:55:50 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5000824381604851802==" --===============5000824381604851802== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 4 May 2024 at 17:28, Gianluca Bonetti via cctalk wrote: > > I am helping Museo del Computer with this fundraising effort in order to > save a large number of machines with significant historic value, including > some Sperry Univac systems. I shared the links on Vintage Computer Club on Facebook, but I agree: you need an English language website, and an English language project description, if you want to raise money internationally. The websites did not successfully go through Google Translate, although the Museo homepage did in Firefox, oddly enough. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5000824381604851802==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 10 15:16:52 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 08:16:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <48107f2a-6501-41f5-9e8c-b0f0b188188a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6633432262175480306==" --===============6633432262175480306== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 10, 2024, 7:53=E2=80=AFAM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > There's a third class that I haven't (yet) mentioned. Design a machine > to solve a particular problem or class of problems. Saxpy was such a > machine; we have bitcoin ASICs and our latest AI ventures. > > What was the CM-1 programmed in? > > --Chuck > Of course, there's the Manchester Baby. Sellam > > --===============6633432262175480306==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri May 10 15:18:17 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 11:18:11 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1515986218802134764==" --===============1515986218802134764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 10, 2024, at 11:16 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, May 10, 2024, 7:53=E2=80=AFAM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> There's a third class that I haven't (yet) mentioned. Design a machine >> to solve a particular problem or class of problems. Saxpy was such a >> machine; we have bitcoin ASICs and our latest AI ventures. >>=20 >> What was the CM-1 programmed in? >>=20 >> --Chuck >>=20 >=20 > Of course, there's the Manchester Baby. >=20 > Sellam And SAGE. paul --===============1515986218802134764==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri May 10 15:34:11 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 10:33:53 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4172C66F-22C2-4CEC-95FD-8B3BE60C50DC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2331290166131401907==" --===============2331290166131401907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 8:45 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I suppose you could pose ESPOL as an example of a language for a machine, ESPOL was likely a major inspiration for SPL (System Programming Language) for the Classic stack-based HP 3000 which was used to write the MPE operating system (there was also no separate assembly language). The constructs in SPL map pretty much directly onto the hardware features, and it has an ASSEMBLE(...) statement for in-line machine code which is used frequently because an SPL programmer knows what's happening at the machine level and sometimes you just want to ASSEMBLE(SWAP, DUP) etc. SPL was a very machine-specific language designed explicitly for its machine. It was picked up by Tandem (perhaps literally off someone's desk when they weren't looking) to create TAL which was used to develop Tandem's original NonStop operating system for their machine which was, er, "inspired" by the original HP 3000 design. Later when HP migrated MPE to PA-RISC, there were eventually two different PA-RISC SPL compilers developed, one (SPLash!) by Allegro Consultants, and one internally by HP that was used to migrate the TurboIMAGE DBMS to native code (after their attempt to replace it with a new HP IMAGE based on a relational kernel crashed and burned), --===============2331290166131401907==-- From robert.stek@gmail.com Fri May 10 17:12:21 2024 From: Robert Stek To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #4 Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 13:12:04 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6308419638301981018==" --===============6308419638301981018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After 'lunch with Draper', you almost immediately reference a 'CRUNCH' utility? Seems like more than coincidence to me, but I'm big on conspiracy theories. --===============6308419638301981018==-- From stuff@riddermarkfarm.ca Fri May 10 18:24:51 2024 From: Stuff Received To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 14:17:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4600724262446870289==" --===============4600724262446870289== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-05-09 09:46, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 9, 2024, 5:39=E2=80=AFAM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> Without doing the research before asking, there was the UCSD p-System >> Pascal for IBM PC which came out very early in the history of the IBM PC. >> It was not very popular. The SAGE II that had native Pascal (68000) was >> not a popular machine. Waterloo Pascal on the SuperPet....Pascal never >> really made it on the microcomputer platform did it? >> >=20 > Not until TurboPascal... But it was only a few years until C emerged from > the language "street fight" as top dog... depending on what the universe of > microcomputers we're talking about. I recall that MS sold a Pascal compiler, possibly from someone else. It=20 was very slow and buggy. I heard a story that to speed up disc access,=20 MS put FAT-manipulation code in the actual compiler and that=20 occasionally destroyed the FAT. S. --===============4600724262446870289==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 10 19:01:48 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 12:01:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4922438193991499632==" --===============4922438193991499632== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been some minor skirmishes in the MCU world over what language should be used when programming. C/C++ is very much top dog, probably because the development suites are written for that. There's a small group that advocates Python; and some say that Ada is best. But they represent a very small segment. --Chuck --===============4922438193991499632==-- From commodorejohn@gmail.com Fri May 10 19:15:18 2024 From: John To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 12:15:09 -0700 Message-ID: <20240510121509.00005137@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <171536040796.2847341.3467774191619431752@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8285997092202498652==" --===============8285997092202498652== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 10 May 2024 12:00:07 -0500 cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: > The UCSD shell was atrocious. The compiler was slow. The editor was > terrible. The entire experience was reminiscent of working on a dumb > terminal connected to a mainframe, when it could've taken advantage of > the features of the personal computer. > > I hated it. > > I hate it. I've never had the pleasure, but a glance over the documentation is... enlightening. God only knows why so many people over the decades have gravitated to the "pick the thing you want to do from this list of the things which can be done" school of UI design... --===============8285997092202498652==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 10 20:36:30 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 13:36:24 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3748984063761942989==" --===============3748984063761942989== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 10 May 2024, Stuff Received via cctalk wrote: > I recall that MS sold a Pascal compiler, possibly from someone else. It wa= s=20 > very slow and buggy. I heard a story that to speed up disc access, MS put = > FAT-manipulation code in the actual compiler and that occasionally destroye= d=20 > the FAT. Sorry Stuff, ain't so. Bob Wallace wrote the Microsoft Pascal compiler, while he was at=20 Microsoft. He was their tenth employee. He told me that their runtime=20 library (which he didn't write) is buggy and slow. So slow that it made benchmarks with their Fortran compiler (which also=20 used the buggy and slow runtime library), perform SLOWER than interpreted=20 BASIC. But, it certainly did NOT do anything to the disk; certainly no messing=20 with the FAT. If you had FAT corruption issues, perhaps you had SMARTDRV enabled with=20 write cacheing (which did occasionally mess up the FAT). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3748984063761942989==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 10 21:04:10 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 14:03:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0599867026601567033==" --===============0599867026601567033== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 1:36=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 10 May 2024, Stuff Received via cctalk wrote: > > I recall that MS sold a Pascal compiler, possibly from someone else. It > was > > very slow and buggy. I heard a story that to speed up disc access, MS > put > > FAT-manipulation code in the actual compiler and that occasionally > destroyed > > the FAT. > > Sorry Stuff, ain't so. > > Bob Wallace wrote the Microsoft Pascal compiler, while he was at > Microsoft. He was their tenth employee. He told me that their runtime > library (which he didn't write) is buggy and slow. > So slow that it made benchmarks with their Fortran compiler (which also > used the buggy and slow runtime library), perform SLOWER than interpreted > BASIC. > I developed quite a bit and for many years with Microsoft C v6.0 under DOS and it was not bad. The compiler was decently fast and once 486s and then Pentiums became available compile time wasn't really an issue. It was actually the least shitty Microsoft product I've ever used, next to MS-DOS 6.22. It was actually pretty good. > If you had FAT corruption issues, perhaps you had SMARTDRV enabled with > write cacheing (which did occasionally mess up the FAT). > A good example of why I generally hate MS software. But the solution was easy: just turn off write-caching. Sellam --===============0599867026601567033==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 10 21:06:16 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Programming languages; Was: DOS p-System Pascal Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 14:05:40 -0700 Message-ID: <87a0edd9-a618-4465-804c-340bb79e7e05@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1064913630010468531==" --===============1064913630010468531== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While doing my customary "whatever happened to" sweep, I ran across this paper of Jules Schwartz (he of JOVIAL) A refreshingly frank evaluation from the author from 1978. http://jovial.com/documents/p203-schwartz-jovial.pdf (Tidbit: The "J" in JOVIAL does stand for "Jules'", but was not of his doing--rather, he relates that it was done behind his back.) Just on the subject of "languages and how we got here." --Chuck --===============1064913630010468531==-- From Gary@realtimecomp.com Fri May 10 21:17:31 2024 From: "Gary L. Messick" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 21:12:19 +0000 Message-ID: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A89201C2F8A0AA@SERVER.RealTime.local> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2879498346982121135==" --===============2879498346982121135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > From: Fred Cisin via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2024 4:36 PM > To: Stuff Received via cctalk > Cc: Fred Cisin > Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) >=20 > Sorry Stuff, ain't so. >=20 > Bob Wallace wrote the Microsoft Pascal compiler, while he was at > Microsoft. He was their tenth employee. He told me that their runtime > library (which he didn't write) is buggy and slow. > So slow that it made benchmarks with their Fortran compiler (which also > used the buggy and slow runtime library), perform SLOWER than interpreted > BASIC. >=20 >=20 > But, it certainly did NOT do anything to the disk; certainly no messing > with the FAT. >=20 > If you had FAT corruption issues, perhaps you had SMARTDRV enabled with > write cacheing (which did occasionally mess up the FAT). >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com I wrote SW with MS Pascal for an accelerometer experiment on the Space Shuttl= e using DOS on an 8086 Multibus system (OARE). MS Pascal supported a modifie= r for procedures named "Interrupt" that was supposed to be used for Interrupt= Service Routines, problem was they forgot to push and pop the register set b= efore and after entry. It didn't work very well. IIRC, we had to create an = assembly macro at entry and exit to do the register saves and restores. DOS, of course, is/was not reentrant, so no DOS services could be used in the= interrupt code. The SW worked well, but was on Columbia when it was lost on= reentry. The flight spares for that program ended up going on the ISS, with= a different system I ported to a PC-104 80486 system in C under VxWorks (MAM= S) that had been in use for 20 years until it was brought back down for refur= bishment. Gary --===============2879498346982121135==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 10 21:19:49 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 14:19:40 -0700 Message-ID: <1e1633f5-c5c3-4ae7-b97a-f4a974d31e20@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8339927529057096491==" --===============8339927529057096491== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/10/24 14:03, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 1:36=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > I developed quite a bit and for many years with Microsoft C v6.0 under DOS > and it was not bad. The compiler was decently fast and once 486s and then > Pentiums became available compile time wasn't really an issue. It was > actually the least shitty Microsoft product I've ever used, next to MS-DOS > 6.22. It was actually pretty good. Same here. And it only took MS about 5 revisions before ML/MASM was dependable. :) --Chuck --===============8339927529057096491==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 10 21:28:20 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 14:28:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4071132238911980331==" --===============4071132238911980331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> very slow and buggy. I heard a story that to speed up disc access, MS put >>> FAT-manipulation code in the actual compiler and that occasionally >>> destroyed the FAT. >> >> Sorry Stuff, ain't so. >> If you had FAT corruption issues, perhaps you had SMARTDRV enabled with >> write cacheing (which did occasionally mess up the FAT). On Fri, 10 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I developed quite a bit and for many years with Microsoft C v6.0 under DOS > and it was not bad. The compiler was decently fast and once 486s and then > Pentiums became available compile time wasn't really an issue. It was > actually the least shitty Microsoft product I've ever used, next to MS-DOS > 6.22. It was actually pretty good. > A good example of why I generally hate MS software. But the solution was > easy: just turn off write-caching. I also liked their C V6. and MASM 5.00 and beyond were the first MASM to have documentation that=20 was not CRIMINALLY bad. SMARTDRV caused a lot of disk corruption. Which was erroneously blamed on=20 the compression. When Infoworld did a test routine that did a bunch of=20 miscellaneous stuff and rebooted in a loop (thereby corrupting disk=20 because SMARTDRV write cache had not been written out!) and blamed the=20 compression, billg tried to explain that their test routine was faulty,=20 not the compression, but wasn't about to admit that SMARTDRV was at fault.=20 Infoworld reported that conversation as an attempt to intimidate! MS-DOS 6.2x "fixed the problems with compression"! The way that it did so was to change SMARTDRV to NOT default to=20 write-cacheing on, IFF the user turned SMARTDRV write-cacheing back on, then SMARTDRV was change= d=20 to NOT re-arrange the sequence of writes (had been for efficiency, but=20 risky), and NOT display the DOS prompt until the write cache(s) were written. (thus=20 not implicitly telling the user that it was now OK to turn off the=20 computer (which had a shutdown sequence of turn off the power)) Those changes to SMARTDRV "fixed compression". MS-DOS 6.2x also did a LOT of other fixes; it may have been the only=20 Microsoft product where the primary goal of the updaate was to improve=20 reliability! MS-DOS 6.20 SMARTDRV and other fixes MS-DOS 6.21 6.20 without compression; Microsoft had lost lawsuit with STAC=20 ($100K judgment from Microsoft to STAC, and $30K judgement from STAC to=20 Microsoft. billg said, "I'm having a bad day.") MS-DOS 6.22 6.20 with a new non-infringing compression -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4071132238911980331==-- From doug@doughq.com Fri May 10 21:44:28 2024 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 07:44:09 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4003857923696631233==" --===============4003857923696631233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Circa 1986 I was working at the Research School of Physical Sciences at the Australian National University. As late as that we were still running CP/M on an eclictic mix of Imsai8080 and STD Bus based machines. These were all running laboratory experiments. Turbo Pascal was king in that environment. C compilers were just way too weird to even consider. Even when we started rilling out IBM PC's in about 1988, we still used Turbo Pascal. Re compiling apps for the new platform was magic... When I left there and moved into a small packet switching hardware developed in the mid 90s, we used Turbo pascal for the PC side of any interface, and Cross compiled C for the 68000/010/020 based hardware plug in line controllers. Everything was hosted in a custom VME rack system running Unix. C didn't enter my world until I started running FreeBSD in the late 90's where it was essentially part of the OS. I remember paying $600 bucks AUD for a Borland C compiler running under Windows, but the whole concept of writing a simple app was insane. Now I use C and C++ regularly for small microcomputers, but still not on my CP/M systems. Doug On Sat, 11 May 2024, 5:01=E2=80=AFam Chuck Guzis via cctalk, wrote: > There have been some minor skirmishes in the MCU world over what > language should be used when programming. > > C/C++ is very much top dog, probably because the development suites are > written for that. > > There's a small group that advocates Python; and some say that Ada is > best. But they represent a very small segment. > > --Chuck > > --===============4003857923696631233==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 10 22:22:59 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 15:22:42 -0700 Message-ID: <33acf185-609b-4bf1-8c8a-ebe83db3dc67@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3396964374124764885==" --===============3396964374124764885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/10/24 14:44, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > C didn't enter my world until I started running FreeBSD in the late 90's > where it was essentially part of the OS. I remember paying $600 bucks AUD > for a Borland C compiler running under Windows, but the whole concept of > writing a simple app was insane. As of about 1984, Microsoft recommended Lattice C. (Still have my two-floppy compiler). One had to be keenly aware of the architecture and what the compiler was doing, but at least it was easier than assembly and a bit more portable. Various C implementations, like 1960s FORTRAN implementations, could be all over the map. It wasn't until C90 that we had some sort of real standard. I remember that on Usenet, in the early 80s, I think it was Brian Kernighan ran a newsgroup for C (could have been Dennis Ritchie). One of the infrequent posts I recall was "What does this statement do?". There were several "Undefined" situations. --Chuck --===============3396964374124764885==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 10 22:29:00 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CORRECTIONS Re: DOS p-System Pascal: Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 15:28:54 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0721538111047932067==" --===============0721538111047932067== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please note, that I am NOT saying that there was nothing wrong in the compression. Merely that the disasters that prompted the public outcry were due to SMARTDRV's problems, not the problems with the compression. My numbers were all wrong on the Microsoft V Stac lawsuit. Micorsoft and Stac had looked at each others code as part of alicensing negotiation, that fell through. Microsoft had to pay $120 million, and Stac had to pay $13.6 million. But Microsoft also settled some claims out of court with a $39.9 million dollar investment in Stac, and paid $43 million in royalties. Yes, billg had a bad day. comparable to my losing $100 IBM's PC-DOS 6.10 had a similar bundle list to MS-DOS 6.00, but each product from a different vendor than Microsoft's On Fri, 10 May 2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: . . . --===============0721538111047932067==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 10 22:42:08 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M) Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 16:41:56 -0600 Message-ID: <6089348e-f021-4207-8e46-78f1c1afc214@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1562316573527024410==" --===============1562316573527024410== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-05-10 1:01 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > There have been some minor skirmishes in the MCU world over what > language should be used when programming. EASY! OCTAL! If it worked on the 8 it is good enough for me. > C/C++ is very much top dog, probably because the development suites are > written for that. > > There's a small group that advocates Python; and some say that Ada is > best. But they represent a very small segment. > > --Chuck > I think it is more the case UNIX was around, and written in assembler. The egg. Then we got B, a Archaeopteryx and flock of chickens that all start with C. C generates real code output and not some virtual machine, another important factor as well as having bit fields and structures. The late 70's , early 80's where the golden years of computing. C,Pascal and PL/M are the only big names for 8 bit cpu's, and what came later. --===============1562316573527024410==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 10 22:57:09 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CORRECTIONS Re: DOS p-System Pascal: Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 15:56:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8156640134563117884==" --===============8156640134563117884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 10, 2024, 3:38=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Microsoft had to pay $120 million, and Stac had to pay $13.6 million. > But Microsoft also settled some claims out of court with a $39.9 million > dollar investment in Stac, and paid $43 million in royalties. > Yes, billg had a bad day. comparable to my losing $100 > I was going to say, if it was only $100K then old Billy Boy would've laughed all the way out of court and on the way home. I remember the Stac lawsuit. It was just another company actually doing innovation whose technology Microschlock tried to appropriate in its typically and despicably underhanded ways. Stac was one of the few (only?) companies to come out pretty well after "partnering" with MS. Sellam --===============8156640134563117884==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 10 23:23:43 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CORRECTIONS Re: DOS p-System Pascal: Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 16:23:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0064738740862628727==" --===============0064738740862628727== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Microsoft had to pay $120 million, and Stac had to pay $13.6 million. >> But Microsoft also settled some claims out of court with a $39.9 million >> dollar investment in Stac, and paid $43 million in royalties. >> Yes, billg had a bad day. comparable to my losing $100 On Fri, 10 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I was going to say, if it was only $100K then old Billy Boy would've > laughed all the way out of court and on the way home. Yes, as soon as I sent that, I knew that I had screwed up. > I remember the Stac lawsuit. It was just another company actually doing > innovation whose technology Microschlock tried to appropriate in its > typically and despicably underhanded ways. Stac was one of the few (only?) > companies to come out pretty well after "partnering" with MS. Too much proprietary information shared too early in the negotiations. The award was based on "$5.50 per copy", . . . When Seattle Computer Products, who had a royalty-free license to sell MS-DOS, was on the rocks, and MICROS~1 was terrified of somebody like AT&T getting that, they did the right thing, and simply BOUGHT the company. As always seems to happen in these kinda cases (just like Word and Mac), it was never adequately spelled out whether "The operating system" meant version 0.9, or all versions including current, and what products, such as Windoze could be construed to be derivative products. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0064738740862628727==-- From charlesmorris800@centurytel.net Fri May 10 23:26:50 2024 From: Charles To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 18:14:42 -0500 Message-ID: <3991c284-3505-4d89-ab7e-5768b3d9674c@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <171536040805.2847341.143721567734836210@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5957471054571153527==" --===============5957471054571153527== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the early '80's, I did some programming with Micro Concurrent Pascal, on embedded CDP1802 systems. It was really nice to be able to program in something other than assembly language (a cross-assembler that ran on a PDP-11 system). Regarding protections, it didn't have many. I remember spending a day tracking down a fatal bug with a logic analyzer (emulators were still a dream in this small company)... another programmer had used an array subscript out of range and the compiler didn't catch it for some reason. So in this array defined [0..20], when the typo caused a write to FOO[60] instead of FOO[20], bad things happened. Ah, the good old days ;) -Charles --===============5957471054571153527==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 10 23:37:15 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 16:37:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3991c284-3505-4d89-ab7e-5768b3d9674c@centurytel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4873990325021252163==" --===============4873990325021252163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 10 May 2024, Charles via cctalk wrote: > Regarding protections, it didn't have many. I remember spending a day=20 > tracking down a fatal bug with a logic analyzer (emulators were still a dre= am=20 > in this small company)... another programmer had used an array subscript ou= t=20 > of range and the compiler didn't catch it for some reason. So in this array= =20 > defined [0..20], when the typo caused a write to FOO[60] instead of FOO[20]= ,=20 > bad things happened. > Ah, the good old days ;) At Goddard Space Flight Center, my position was negligible (gopher and APL=20 and FORTRAN programming for a British pysicist studying the Van Allen=20 belts). I was told that some of the many locally applied patches were done by=20 writes to array elements with negative subscripts. We may have been the first one to get some IBM 360 operating systems. I=20 remember one time, shortly after "upgrading", we rolled back to the=20 previous one, until the next one arrived. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4873990325021252163==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat May 11 00:02:09 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 17:01:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3724984920137645121==" --===============3724984920137645121== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/10/24 16:37, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I was told that some of the many locally applied patches were done by > writes to array elements with negative subscripts. > CDC 6000 (the one with PPUs) OS (SCOPE, KRNONOS, MACE and NOS) used a single PPU that, among other things, monitored the contents of location 1 in each control point's field length. Normally, it was zero; but if it became nonzero, it took the format of a system request, very often to be serviced by a certain PPU program. In CDC FTN (and probably RUN), you could get the (60 bit word) address of a variable using either the LOCF() function call or .LOC. unary operator, depending on the dialect of FORTRAN. So, to put something into that location 1 address word was pretty straightforward. INTEGER AX(1), IX; IX = LOCF( AX) AX ( -IX-1) = To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Better demagnetize all of your cables! Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 11:09:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5563968332925791473==" --===============5563968332925791473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/products/aurora-30-minute-forecast stormy sunny weather --===============5563968332925791473==-- From raymond.wiker@icloud.com Sat May 11 19:06:45 2024 From: Raymond Wiker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 20:56:49 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4172C66F-22C2-4CEC-95FD-8B3BE60C50DC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3224471775638121748==" --===============3224471775638121748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Norsk Data had at least two programming languages designed in-house: NPL and = PLANC. These had some fairly unusual features, reflecting the hardware. Sent from my iPhone > On 10 May 2024, at 15:45, Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > As for "language to the machine" that's pretty much unheard of. While ther= e certainly are languages that only were seen on one or a few machines or arc= hitectures -- SYMPL, CYBIL, BLISS, TUTOR -- it isn't because that was the int= ent of those languages. I suppose you could pose ESPOL as an example of a la= nguage for a machine, though I suspect it could have been generalized, as C w= as, if there had been a desire to do so. --===============3224471775638121748==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun May 12 13:59:15 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] ANSI-M (Mumps) and the VA Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 09:58:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2120836039576417742==" --===============2120836039576417742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the VA dropping Vista what happens to that army of Mumps programmers they had? Can't see much call for them in the IT world today. Seems like a worse fate than COBOL Programmers. bill --===============2120836039576417742==-- From cube1@charter.net Sun May 12 16:20:07 2024 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ANSI-M (Mumps) and the VA Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 11:19:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB57372F2E36C8C848DF5628F1EDE12=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0376497131508996892==" --===============0376497131508996892== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They can apply at epic systems in Verona, Wisconsin. They are underlying inf= rastructure is based on mice and mumps. Sent from my iPad > On May 12, 2024, at 08:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > With the VA dropping Vista what happens to that army of Mumps > programmers they had? Can't see much call for them in the IT > world today. Seems like a worse fate than COBOL Programmers. >=20 > bill --===============0376497131508996892==-- From mumpsdev@icloud.com Tue May 14 02:18:12 2024 From: Tommy Chang To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ANSI-M (Mumps) and the VA Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 19:09:05 -0700 Message-ID: <49581CFB-4D76-4D5A-93A0-E4C1FDBEE30B@icloud.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3739348832051924325==" --===============3739348832051924325== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Yes, Epic is the most popular electronic medical records vendor and their bac= kend is MUMPS (originally MIIS). I don=E2=80=99t work for them but I do work= for one of their large customers writing custom MUMPS code. =20 Tommy Chang > On May 12, 2024, at 9:20=E2=80=AFAM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThey can apply at epic systems in Verona, Wisconsin. They are und= erlying infrastructure is based on mice and mumps. >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 >> On May 12, 2024, at 08:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> With the VA dropping Vista what happens to that army of Mumps >> programmers they had? Can't see much call for them in the IT >> world today. Seems like a worse fate than COBOL Programmers. >>=20 >> bill >=20 --===============3739348832051924325==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Thu May 16 01:38:26 2024 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 21:38:09 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7278478445146291078==" --===============7278478445146291078== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had > APL, instead of BASIC? > > > The Ampere WS-1? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere_WS-1 Definitely more stylish. KJ --===============7278478445146291078==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Thu May 16 01:47:33 2024 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 21:47:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0894008410928850536==" --===============0894008410928850536== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 8:59=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Who remembers SYMPL or CYBIL? > > Please...I'm trying very hard not to remember them (or NOS...worse, NOS/VE). KJ --===============0894008410928850536==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Thu May 16 01:49:35 2024 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ANSI-M (Mumps) and the VA Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 21:49:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <49581CFB-4D76-4D5A-93A0-E4C1FDBEE30B@icloud.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1860597627145132734==" --===============1860597627145132734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 10:18 PM Tommy Chang via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Yes, Epic is the most popular electronic medical records vendor and their > backend is MUMPS (originally MIIS). > My wife is in medical practice management. That explains a lot. KJ --===============1860597627145132734==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 16 02:34:14 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 19:34:01 -0700 Message-ID: <99fe3447-2a96-45cc-8f73-26cc4028ad88@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2714767269504723669==" --===============2714767269504723669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/15/24 18:47, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > Please...I'm trying very hard not to remember them (or NOS...worse, NOS/VE). I left CDC at around the time that SCOPE 3.4 was being renamed NOS BE and KRONOS was becoming NOS. I remember attending a design meeting for the pager in what was to become NOS/VE. I asked the presenter if he'd conferred with any of the virtual memory pager talent that CDC had in-house. Blank stare. I informed him that the STAR-100 people had lived in that particular hell since about 1969--and that demand paging was not the way to run a shop. STAR had long-since switched to a working set algorithm. Even that wasn't enough. If one selected a large (65 KW) page size and set up certain vector instructions so that addresses crossed page boundaries, it was impossible to get the required pages into memory all at once. The system just sat there and thrashed.... --Chuck --===============2714767269504723669==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Thu May 16 03:00:24 2024 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 23:00:07 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <99fe3447-2a96-45cc-8f73-26cc4028ad88@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3394578280111737502==" --===============3394578280111737502== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I came to it all a bit later. I do recall the CDC salesthing saying something like "oh, you guys have some Unix around here? Have we got something for you!". And the systems guys brought up NOS/VE on the last CDC machines we ever bought. On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 10:43 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 5/15/24 18:47, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > > > Please...I'm trying very hard not to remember them (or NOS...worse, > NOS/VE). > > I left CDC at around the time that SCOPE 3.4 was being renamed NOS BE > and KRONOS was becoming NOS. I remember attending a design meeting for > the pager in what was to become NOS/VE. I asked the presenter if he'd > conferred with any of the virtual memory pager talent that CDC had > in-house. Blank stare. I informed him that the STAR-100 people had > lived in that particular hell since about 1969--and that demand paging > was not the way to run a shop. STAR had long-since switched to a > working set algorithm. > > Even that wasn't enough. If one selected a large (65 KW) page size and > set up certain vector instructions so that addresses crossed page > boundaries, it was impossible to get the required pages into memory all > at once. > > The system just sat there and thrashed.... > > --Chuck > > --===============3394578280111737502==-- From mumpsdev@icloud.com Thu May 16 04:48:32 2024 From: Tommy Chang To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ANSI-M (Mumps) and the VA Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 21:48:14 -0700 Message-ID: <6DF98111-A764-4D52-8AF4-BE72FE5A28E3@icloud.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8379066294193704533==" --===============8379066294193704533== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yup=E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m so glad I taught myself MUMPS when others thought i= t wouldn=E2=80=99t be of much use. It=E2=80=99s my favorite language and it = got me a really great job which I enjoy. I get constant inquiries from recru= iters (in fact my current employer (who I=E2=80=99ve been with 10 years) recr= uited me away from my previous employer). There is always the risk of gettin= g outsourced in this industry of course but so far, they seem to have difficu= lty finding MUMPS resources in India (so it=E2=80=99s a little safer than bei= ng a COBOL programmer in that regard).=20 Tommy Chang > On May 15, 2024, at 6:49=E2=80=AFPM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Mon, May 13, 2024 at 10:18=E2=80=AFPM Tommy Chang via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> Yes, Epic is the most popular electronic medical records vendor and their >> backend is MUMPS (originally MIIS). >>=20 >=20 > My wife is in medical practice management. That explains a lot. >=20 > KJ --===============8379066294193704533==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Thu May 16 05:08:06 2024 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 13:07:40 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4770441238704698657==" --===============4770441238704698657== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought the CDC CYBER and 6000 series mainframes were great systems which performed admirably for what they were designed for. I liked COMPASS, SYMPL and NOS 1 and 2. I didn't do much work in CYBIL, but it was basically an enhanced version of PASCAL suitable for operating systems work. What is there not to like? These mainframes and the CDC 7600 outperformed every other machine until Seymour Cray released his own machines. On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 11:08 AM Ken Seefried via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I came to it all a bit later. I do recall the CDC salesthing saying > something like "oh, you guys have some Unix around here? Have we got > something for you!". And the systems guys brought up NOS/VE on the last > CDC machines we ever bought. > > On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 10:43 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 5/15/24 18:47, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Please...I'm trying very hard not to remember them (or NOS...worse, > > NOS/VE). > > > > I left CDC at around the time that SCOPE 3.4 was being renamed NOS BE > > and KRONOS was becoming NOS. I remember attending a design meeting for > > the pager in what was to become NOS/VE. I asked the presenter if he'd > > conferred with any of the virtual memory pager talent that CDC had > > in-house. Blank stare. I informed him that the STAR-100 people had > > lived in that particular hell since about 1969--and that demand paging > > was not the way to run a shop. STAR had long-since switched to a > > working set algorithm. > > > > Even that wasn't enough. If one selected a large (65 KW) page size and > > set up certain vector instructions so that addresses crossed page > > boundaries, it was impossible to get the required pages into memory all > > at once. > > > > The system just sat there and thrashed.... > > > > --Chuck > > > > > --===============4770441238704698657==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 16 05:52:10 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 22:41:59 -0700 Message-ID: <33c8798b-48c8-48ae-8dc6-22bcc1c56b0d@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0475950326355544418==" --===============0475950326355544418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/15/24 22:07, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I thought the CDC CYBER and 6000 series mainframes were great systems which > performed admirably for what they were designed for. I liked COMPASS, SYMPL > and NOS 1 and 2. I didn't do much work in CYBIL, but it was basically an > enhanced version of PASCAL suitable for operating systems work. What is > there not to like? These mainframes and the CDC 7600 outperformed every > other machine until Seymour Cray released his own machines. SYMPL was pretty new when I left the 6000 series behind. Much of the code, but for some utilities was still assembly. FORTRAN (FTN) was used for some simple things. I worked on Zodiac, which was a multi-CPU COBOL (!) multithreaded multitask OS written for USAF--very unlike anything CDC has ever had.. Lots of ECS and oceans of 844 drives. Special Systems Division was a lot of fun back in the day. Lots of variety before they started cycling down work at SVLOPS. My final years at CDC Sunnyvale were with STAR, only to be resurrected in the 1980s with the ETA machines. I think the ROVER people were among the last people at SVLOPS, but I can't recall precisely. A little factoid is that the 6000 series was very good at running COBOL. --Chuck --===============0475950326355544418==-- From markwgreen@rogers.com Thu May 16 07:09:14 2024 From: Mark GREEN To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 07:09:06 +0000 Message-ID: <683082658.587081.1715843346361@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <33c8798b-48c8-48ae-8dc6-22bcc1c56b0d@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5945160256872655250==" --===============5945160256872655250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I worked on the run time support for the early versions of Pascal on the CDC= 6000 series.=C2=A0 Depending upon the character set determining the end of l= ine was a major pain.=C2=A0 There was a loop hole in the Pascal type system t= hat allowed you to call any PPU program directly from Pascal.=C2=A0 It was no= t widely known, but it came in handy at times. On Thursday, May 16, 2024 at 01:52:12 a.m. EDT, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 5/15/24 22:07, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I thought the CDC CYBER and 6000 series mainframes were great systems which > performed admirably for what they were designed for. I liked COMPASS, SYMPL > and NOS 1 and 2. I didn't do much work in CYBIL, but it was basically an > enhanced version of PASCAL suitable for operating systems work. What is > there not to like? These mainframes and the CDC 7600 outperformed every > other machine until Seymour Cray released his own machines. SYMPL was pretty new when I left the 6000 series behind.=C2=A0 Much of the code, but for some utilities was still assembly.=C2=A0 FORTRAN (FTN) was used for some simple things. I worked on Zodiac, which was a multi-CPU COBOL=C2=A0 (!) multithreaded multitask OS written for USAF--very unlike anything CDC has ever had.. Lots of ECS and oceans of 844 drives. Special Systems Division was a lot of fun back in the day.=C2=A0 Lots of variety before they started cycling down work at SVLOPS.=C2=A0 My final years at CDC Sunnyvale were with STAR, only to be resurrected in the 1980s with the ETA machines. I think the ROVER people were among the last people at SVLOPS, but I can't recall precisely. A little factoid is that the 6000 series was very good at running COBOL. --Chuck =20 --===============5945160256872655250==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Thu May 16 08:04:04 2024 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 16:03:37 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <683082658.587081.1715843346361@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4087272621101794988==" --===============4087272621101794988== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I assume you refer to the "case ... of" construct in PASCAL record types which allowed you to arbitrarily "cast" - to use a C term - variables to any type you wanted and could be (ab)used to assign integers to pointers. The ability to call PP programs via RA+1 calls was not a loop hole, but a design feature of the CYBER/6600 operating systems like COS, KRONOS and NOS. It simply involved writing to the word in location 1 (RA+1) relative to the start of the segment of memory assigned to your program by the OS. The contents of the word were essentially the name of the PP program and some parameters - typically the address of a parameter block somewhere in your segment of memory. When the OS processed the request, it cleared location 1 (RA+1). This was the standard mechanism used to request OS functions like writing to a file etc. Higher level languages typically wrapped this in library functions (or macros when programming in assembler i.e. COMPASS), but if the language allowed negative array offsets and the ability to determine the address of the array, then it was trivial to explicitly call PPs via RA+1 calls (even more trivial using COMPASS). The OS periodically scanned the RA+1 words of each of several programs currently in memory (i.e. a program assigned to a "control point") and if the RA+1 contents were non-zero, then the OS allocated a free PP to the request and loaded and started the requested PP program into that PP and finally cleared the word at RA+1. You typically would expedite this by after writing the PP request to RA+1, execute an "exchange jump" instruction which stopped the user program from running and re-entered the OS to allow it to soon after process pending RA+1 requests. I hope this all makes sense. On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 3:28=E2=80=AFPM Mark GREEN via cctalk wrote: > I worked on the run time support for the early versions of Pascal on the > CDC 6000 series. Depending upon the character set determining the end of > line was a major pain. There was a loop hole in the Pascal type system > that allowed you to call any PPU program directly from Pascal. It was not > widely known, but it came in handy at times. > On Thursday, May 16, 2024 at 01:52:12 a.m. EDT, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 5/15/24 22:07, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > I thought the CDC CYBER and 6000 series mainframes were great systems > which > > performed admirably for what they were designed for. I liked COMPASS, > SYMPL > > and NOS 1 and 2. I didn't do much work in CYBIL, but it was basically an > > enhanced version of PASCAL suitable for operating systems work. What is > > there not to like? These mainframes and the CDC 7600 outperformed every > > other machine until Seymour Cray released his own machines. > > SYMPL was pretty new when I left the 6000 series behind. Much of the > code, but for some utilities was still assembly. FORTRAN (FTN) was used > for some simple things. > I worked on Zodiac, which was a multi-CPU COBOL (!) multithreaded > multitask OS written for USAF--very unlike anything CDC has ever had.. > Lots of ECS and oceans of 844 drives. Special Systems Division was a lot > of fun back in the day. Lots of variety before they started cycling > down work at SVLOPS. My final years at CDC Sunnyvale were with STAR, > only to be resurrected in the 1980s with the ETA machines. > > I think the ROVER people were among the last people at SVLOPS, but I > can't recall precisely. > > A little factoid is that the 6000 series was very good at running COBOL. > > --Chuck > > > > --===============4087272621101794988==-- From markwgreen@rogers.com Thu May 16 09:10:38 2024 From: Mark GREEN To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 09:10:30 +0000 Message-ID: <1966419229.598383.1715850630437@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6294204333692180100==" --===============6294204333692180100== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It was a loop hole in the strong typing of Pascal, not the operating system = itself.=C2=A0 You could set up a record structure that mirrored the communica= tions area and then map this to location zero.=C2=A0 This was important for P= ascal since it had no library mechanism, it was essentially a compile and go = system.=C2=A0 The run time was tied to the particular version of the compiler= , if the run time was updated you had to update the tables in the compiler.= =C2=A0 This was somewhat similar to the run Fortran compiler, which also avoi= ded using the loader.=C2=A0 The loader was a wonderful piece of software, but= it was expensive, so for teaching programming it was avoided at all cost.=C2= =A0 I wrote a relational database system in Pascal for the CDC 6000 using thi= s approach for the low level I/O routines.=C2=A0 There were some wonderful th= ings that you could do through the PPU programs. If you were using the FTN compiler for Fortran you could do all of this in CO= MPASS, but for Pascal that wasn't an option.=C2=A0 One of the fun things you = could do is having multiple I/O operations occurring at the same time.=C2=A0 = A fun game was to issue a read and write on the same memory location and see = when they passed each other. On Thursday, May 16, 2024 at 04:04:05 a.m. EDT, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 I assume you refer to the "case ... of" construct in PASCAL record types which allowed you to arbitrarily "cast" - to use a C term - variables to any type you wanted and could be (ab)used to assign integers to pointers. The ability to call PP programs via RA+1 calls was not a loop hole, but a design feature of the CYBER/6600 operating systems like COS, KRONOS and NOS. It simply involved writing to the word in location 1 (RA+1) relative to the start of the segment of memory assigned to your program by the OS. The contents of the word were essentially the name of the PP program and some parameters - typically the address of a parameter block somewhere in your segment of memory. When the OS processed the request, it cleared location 1 (RA+1). This was the standard mechanism used to request OS functions like writing to a file etc. Higher level languages typically wrapped this in library functions (or macros when programming in assembler i.e. COMPASS), but if the language allowed negative array offsets and the ability to determine the address of the array, then it was trivial to explicitly call PPs via RA+1 calls (even more trivial using COMPASS). The OS periodically scanned the RA+1 words of each of several programs currently in memory (i.e. a program assigned to a "control point") and if the RA+1 contents were non-zero, then the OS allocated a free PP to the request and loaded and started the requested PP program into that PP and finally cleared the word at RA+1. You typically would expedite this by after writing the PP request to RA+1, execute an "exchange jump" instruction which stopped the user program from running and re-entered the OS to allow it to soon after process pending RA+1 requests. I hope this all makes sense. On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 3:28=E2=80=AFPM Mark GREEN via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 I worked on the run time support for the early versions of Pascal on = the > CDC 6000 series.=C2=A0 Depending upon the character set determining the end= of > line was a major pain.=C2=A0 There was a loop hole in the Pascal type system > that allowed you to call any PPU program directly from Pascal.=C2=A0 It was= not > widely known, but it came in handy at times. >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thursday, May 16, 2024 at 01:52:12 a.m. EDT, Chuck Guzis vi= a cctalk > wrote: > >=C2=A0 On 5/15/24 22:07, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > I thought the CDC CYBER and 6000 series mainframes were great systems > which > > performed admirably for what they were designed for. I liked COMPASS, > SYMPL > > and NOS 1 and 2. I didn't do much work in CYBIL, but it was basically an > > enhanced version of PASCAL suitable for operating systems work. What is > > there not to like? These mainframes and the CDC 7600 outperformed every > > other machine until Seymour Cray released his own machines. > > SYMPL was pretty new when I left the 6000 series behind.=C2=A0 Much of the > code, but for some utilities was still assembly.=C2=A0 FORTRAN (FTN) was us= ed > for some simple things. > I worked on Zodiac, which was a multi-CPU COBOL=C2=A0 (!) multithreaded > multitask OS written for USAF--very unlike anything CDC has ever had.. > Lots of ECS and oceans of 844 drives. Special Systems Division was a lot > of fun back in the day.=C2=A0 Lots of variety before they started cycling > down work at SVLOPS.=C2=A0 My final years at CDC Sunnyvale were with STAR, > only to be resurrected in the 1980s with the ETA machines. > > I think the ROVER people were among the last people at SVLOPS, but I > can't recall precisely. > > A little factoid is that the 6000 series was very good at running COBOL. > > --Chuck > > > > =20 --===============6294204333692180100==-- From mi@fritscholyt.de Thu May 16 14:23:37 2024 From: Michael Fritsch To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 16:13:35 +0200 Message-ID: <57bf3014-d15e-c4c6-913a-00f7e39e422a@fritscholyt.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5941904858224775831==" --===============5941904858224775831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a Decitek 442A9 papertape reader which needs repair. I have already replaced the belt, but that is not enough. The reader behaves = very strangely. It=20 starts running as soon as I apply power. And there is another problem: when I= load a tape, it=20 rattles irregular during reading. This is not a mechanical problem, it seems = to react to the pulse=20 of the feed hole, which arrives at the wrong time. I'm pretty sure, that I have to adjust the sprockets somehow relative to the = stop positions of the=20 stepper motor. It was nothing to be found online except pictures of a similar model 443A9 at= RICM:=20 https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-pdp-8s-4. The controller board number is 30291A Does anyone happen to have the manual and/or schematics or any other document= s? Thank you, Micha --===============5941904858224775831==-- From glg@grebus.com Thu May 16 15:08:53 2024 From: Gary Grebus To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 11:08:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6856839397064195783==" --===============6856839397064195783== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We were a beta test site for NOS/VE and the hardware (Cyber 180?). CDC sent the machine and a software support engineer to help us do something with it. My one recollection was that the command language was horribly awkward, but I didn't spend much time on the system. I know there are some manuals for NOS/VE on bitsavers, but I wonder if any of the software still exists? Gary On 5/15/24 23:00, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > I came to it all a bit later. I do recall the CDC salesthing saying > something like "oh, you guys have some Unix around here? Have we got > something for you!". And the systems guys brought up NOS/VE on the last > CDC machines we ever bought. > > On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 10:43 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 5/15/24 18:47, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Please...I'm trying very hard not to remember them (or NOS...worse, >> NOS/VE). >> >> I left CDC at around the time that SCOPE 3.4 was being renamed NOS BE >> and KRONOS was becoming NOS. I remember attending a design meeting for >> the pager in what was to become NOS/VE. I asked the presenter if he'd >> conferred with any of the virtual memory pager talent that CDC had >> in-house. Blank stare. I informed him that the STAR-100 people had >> lived in that particular hell since about 1969--and that demand paging >> was not the way to run a shop. STAR had long-since switched to a >> working set algorithm. >> >> Even that wasn't enough. If one selected a large (65 KW) page size and >> set up certain vector instructions so that addresses crossed page >> boundaries, it was impossible to get the required pages into memory all >> at once. >> >> The system just sat there and thrashed.... >> >> --Chuck >> >> --===============6856839397064195783==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 16 15:12:49 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 11:12:39 -0400 Message-ID: <9AC7A1CA-2CC6-4E7A-811E-C8F3AEA02EE6@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5004140598490117634==" --===============5004140598490117634== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 16, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Gary Grebus via cctalk wrote: >=20 > We were a beta test site for NOS/VE and the hardware (Cyber 180?). CDC sen= t the machine and a software support engineer to help us do something with it= . My one recollection was that the command language was horribly awkward, bu= t I didn't spend much time on the system. >=20 > I know there are some manuals for NOS/VE on bitsavers, but I wonder if any = of the software still exists? I don't know if it does. The other issue is that there isn't as far as I kno= w, an emulator that supports the 64 bit mode it needs. There is of course a = (very solid) emulator for the classic 60 bit architecture, DtCyber. paul --===============5004140598490117634==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Thu May 16 15:14:47 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 11:06:24 -0400 Message-ID: <8AF31A48-22A4-4650-AFEC-B66AE1BAC599@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <57bf3014-d15e-c4c6-913a-00f7e39e422a@fritscholyt.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8467919172044208200==" --===============8467919172044208200== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Decitek is still in business, so try decitek.com > On May 16, 2024, at 10:13 AM, Michael Fritsch via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I have a Decitek 442A9 papertape reader which needs repair. >=20 > I have already replaced the belt, but that is not enough. The reader behave= s very strangely. It starts running as soon as I apply power. And there is an= other problem: when I load a tape, it rattles irregular during reading. This = is not a mechanical problem, it seems to react to the pulse of the feed hole,= which arrives at the wrong time. > I'm pretty sure, that I have to adjust the sprockets somehow relative to th= e stop positions of the stepper motor. >=20 > It was nothing to be found online except pictures of a similar model 443A9 = at RICM: https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-p= dp-8s-4. >=20 > The controller board number is 30291A >=20 > Does anyone happen to have the manual and/or schematics or any other docume= nts? >=20 > Thank you, > Micha >=20 --===============8467919172044208200==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Thu May 16 15:29:42 2024 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 15:22:34 +0000 Message-ID: <8aa91b21404240aebdd1eae911660b95@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <57bf3014-d15e-c4c6-913a-00f7e39e422a@fritscholyt.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5936043417638159556==" --===============5936043417638159556== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It looks as though Decitek remain in business http://www.decitek.com/index.ht= ml Scan of a series 700 reader manual on bitsavers http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/= decitek/ On an optical reader, I would not recon the capstan running at power on as un= usual - a pinch roller which engages for drive and a tape clamp engaging for = stop motion are both common features. For simple single byte read operations= , probably the paradigm used when the unit was built, it is not uncommon for = the sprocket hole to stop feed and energise clamp. The circuitry to control = this behaviour may be in the drive or controller or shared; and then there ar= e configuration links / switches ... An empirical approach is to scope / LA the sprocket and data bit outputs; ide= ally with a tape loop. HtH; Martin -----Original Message----- From: Michael Fritsch via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 16 May 2024 15:14 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Michael Fritsch Subject: [cctalk] Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics I have a Decitek 442A9 papertape reader which needs repair. I have already replaced the belt, but that is not enough. The reader behaves = very strangely. It starts running as soon as I apply power. And there is anot= her problem: when I load a tape, it rattles irregular during reading. This is= not a mechanical problem, it seems to react to the pulse of the feed hole, w= hich arrives at the wrong time. I'm pretty sure, that I have to adjust the sprockets somehow relative to the = stop positions of the stepper motor. It was nothing to be found online except pictures of a similar model 443A9 at= RICM:=20 https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-pdp-8s-4. The controller board number is 30291A Does anyone happen to have the manual and/or schematics or any other document= s? Thank you, Micha --===============5936043417638159556==-- From mi@fritscholyt.de Thu May 16 16:02:33 2024 From: Michael Fritsch To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 18:02:28 +0200 Message-ID: <5333169d-6394-9e3b-07d7-d9761a7eb2a3@fritscholyt.de> In-Reply-To: <8aa91b21404240aebdd1eae911660b95@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5080184215799449247==" --===============5080184215799449247== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know the document on bitsavers, but the series 700 is a complete different = one. In this reader there is no clamp or breake or similar things, but a stepper m= otor which drives two=20 sprocket wheels. Between the wheels is the optical sensor. In the moment I'm about to reverse engineer the board. The db25 connector at = the back is almost=20 completely populated. I would like to known what the pin are for. Very good, = that Decitek still=20 exists. I will write them. Micha Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > It looks as though Decitek remain in business http://www.decitek.com/index.= html >=20 > Scan of a series 700 reader manual on bitsavers http://www.bitsavers.org/pd= f/decitek/ >=20 > On an optical reader, I would not recon the capstan running at power on as = unusual - a pinch roller which engages for drive and a tape clamp engaging fo= r stop motion are both common features. For simple single byte read operatio= ns, probably the paradigm used when the unit was built, it is not uncommon fo= r the sprocket hole to stop feed and energise clamp. The circuitry to contro= l this behaviour may be in the drive or controller or shared; and then there = are configuration links / switches ... >=20 > An empirical approach is to scope / LA the sprocket and data bit outputs; i= deally with a tape loop. >=20 > HtH; Martin >=20 --===============5080184215799449247==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu May 16 17:21:44 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 13:21:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <57bf3014-d15e-c4c6-913a-00f7e39e422a@fritscholyt.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7811504696500085598==" --===============7811504696500085598== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have something close-ish http://www.memex.ca/wp-content/uploads/old/M110545-Dostek-440A-BTR-User-Guide= .pdf Bill On Thu, May 16, 2024, 10:33 AM Michael Fritsch via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a Decitek 442A9 papertape reader which needs repair. > > I have already replaced the belt, but that is not enough. The reader > behaves very strangely. It > starts running as soon as I apply power. And there is another problem: > when I load a tape, it > rattles irregular during reading. This is not a mechanical problem, it > seems to react to the pulse > of the feed hole, which arrives at the wrong time. > I'm pretty sure, that I have to adjust the sprockets somehow relative to > the stop positions of the > stepper motor. > > It was nothing to be found online except pictures of a similar model 443A9 > at RICM: > https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-pdp-8s-4 > . > > The controller board number is 30291A > > Does anyone happen to have the manual and/or schematics or any other > documents? > > Thank you, > Micha > > --===============7811504696500085598==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 16 17:27:06 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 13:26:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8aa91b21404240aebdd1eae911660b95@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8564225062919699369==" --===============8564225062919699369== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 16, 2024, at 11:22 AM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >=20 > It looks as though Decitek remain in business http://www.decitek.com/index.= html >=20 > Scan of a series 700 reader manual on bitsavers http://www.bitsavers.org/pd= f/decitek/ >=20 > On an optical reader, I would not recon the capstan running at power on as = unusual - a pinch roller which engages for drive and a tape clamp engaging fo= r stop motion are both common features. For simple single byte read operatio= ns, probably the paradigm used when the unit was built, it is not uncommon fo= r the sprocket hole to stop feed and energise clamp.=20 There are two basic design schemes for optical tape readers: a sprocket wheel= that engages the tape and does the start-stop motion, typically with a stepp= er motor; and a transport roller with pinch roller and brake, typically solen= oid driven. The DEC PC11 is an exaxmple of the former. The latter are more = likely to show up in high speed readers because the tape motion is continuous= , so easier on the tape as long as it doesn't need to stop. I'm still amazed at the Electrologica X8 tape reader, rated at over 1000 char= acters per second, and able to stop and restart without skipping a byte. paul --===============8564225062919699369==-- From kej@kyrafre.com Thu May 16 17:58:04 2024 From: Kevin Jordan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 13:50:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9AC7A1CA-2CC6-4E7A-811E-C8F3AEA02EE6@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3725751604071706625==" --===============3725751604071706625== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Regarding NOS/VE and the notion that its command language was horribly awkward ... the command language was strongly influenced by Multics and some thinking in the Computer Science world about user-friendliness in command languages being linked to predictability. Commands in NOS/VE's SCL (System Command Language) were verbose and their names followed strict rules. Specifically, every command began with a verb followed by an object, and one or two modifiers might occur between them. The individual words were separated by underscores. And, every command could be abbreviated in a standard and predictable way -- first three letters of verb followed by first letter of each subsequent word. Examples: create_file (abbreviated cref) delete_file (abbreviated delf) display_catalog (disc) display_command_list (discl) display_command_parameters (discp) edit_file (edif) etc. There were similar, predictable rules about command parameter names and their abbreviations. The language truly was very predictable and actually quite easy to learn because of it. Unfortunately, it reached the market too late. For example, it came to market around the same time as X-Windows, which muted the need for "user-friendly" command languages. Also, NOS/VE ran on expensive Cyber 180 mainframes and came to market during the time that supermini's were flourishing and Moore's Law was turning PC's into competitive computing platforms too. On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 11:13 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On May 16, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Gary Grebus via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > We were a beta test site for NOS/VE and the hardware (Cyber 180?). CDC > sent the machine and a software support engineer to help us do something > with it. My one recollection was that the command language was horribly > awkward, but I didn't spend much time on the system. > > > > I know there are some manuals for NOS/VE on bitsavers, but I wonder if > any of the software still exists? > > I don't know if it does. The other issue is that there isn't as far as I > know, an emulator that supports the 64 bit mode it needs. There is of > course a (very solid) emulator for the classic 60 bit architecture, DtCyber. > > paul > > --===============3725751604071706625==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 16 18:09:24 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3 Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 14:09:17 -0400 Message-ID: <33170C84-6261-4215-BFE9-806B3DD2DAA7@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8998745337840282324==" --===============8998745337840282324== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 16, 2024, at 1:50 PM, Kevin Jordan wrote: >=20 > Regarding NOS/VE and the notion that its command language was horribly awkw= ard ... the command language was strongly influenced by Multics and some thin= king in the Computer Science world about user-friendliness in command languag= es being linked to predictability. ... It's taken a while for people to learn that languages need to be designed to = match the environment where they are used. Language needed for rapid interac= tion can't be as verbose as regular programming languages. The Unix shell ta= kes that notion to extremes (as does the ITS command handler, from what littl= e I know of it -- and its ancestor the PDP-10 interactive debugger). One of my favorite examples of an interesting command language is the one on = Burroughs mainframes, called WFL (work flow language). It looks vaguely like= ALGOL, for the very good reason that is is compiled into executable code tha= t is run to perform the various operations you ask for, by invoking the vario= us applications as "forks" and executing flow control like "if" and looping s= tatements. For ALGOL programmers, which was most of us on that system, it wa= s a very comfortable setup. Oh yes, that was a batch system, so WFL would be= on card decks, not banged into a terminal interactively. paul --===============8998745337840282324==-- From mi@fritscholyt.de Thu May 16 18:34:00 2024 From: Michael Fritsch To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 20:33:57 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6821411907510958374==" --===============6821411907510958374== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Bill, but the board in the link is completely different. The board in my reader is almost identical to the one in this auction (versio= n D vs. A): https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333131813919 Only TTL-Logic, no processor, no UART, paralle=C3=B6l data output. Micha Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have something close-ish >=20 > http://www.memex.ca/wp-content/uploads/old/M110545-Dostek-440A-BTR-User-Gui= de.pdf >=20 > Bill >=20 --===============6821411907510958374==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu May 16 19:29:08 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 15:28:50 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4802388239303506763==" --===============4802388239303506763== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It would have been quite a bit of good luck, but I thought maybe .... b On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 2:53=E2=80=AFPM Michael Fritsch via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thank you Bill, but the board in the link is completely different. > The board in my reader is almost identical to the one in this auction > (version D vs. A): > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333131813919 > Only TTL-Logic, no processor, no UART, paralle=C3=B6l data output. > > Micha > > > Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I have something close-ish > > > > > http://www.memex.ca/wp-content/uploads/old/M110545-Dostek-440A-BTR-User-Gui= de.pdf > > > > Bill > > > --===============4802388239303506763==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Thu May 16 20:16:14 2024 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 20:15:16 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5333169d-6394-9e3b-07d7-d9761a7eb2a3@fritscholyt.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7907980618011681108==" --===============7907980618011681108== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Micha That the board is TTL and 2 layer by the look of it makes reverse engineering= rather more tractable : good luck. The 25p D pin outs for readers/punches seem substantially standardised, I thi= nk you will find that the Dostek 440 manual (which is a solid state substitu= te for PTP / PTR) will get you a long way. The use case for PT after the ear= ly 70's seems to have primarily been CNC, feeding G code to machines. Additionally, the DEC PC-04/05 and PC-11 manuals / eng drws should provide a = worked example from the same era (they are online). They look to be sprocket= fed, and have (eg) details of motor / sprocket adjustment. You will also find Facit N4000 and 4070 documentation on line; however, 232 i= nterfaces seem to be the prefered flavor GNT is another PTR/PTP OEM, again with some documentation online, model numbe= rs include 36, 4601, 4604, 3406, 29 I have a Sanyo Denshi 2702 PTR (sprocket feed) which is on the gather dust ma= nyana list. I have a serviceable friction feed / optical sense reader which = I much prefer, the sprockets look to me like a paper shredding mechanism. HtH Martin -----Original Message----- From: Michael Fritsch via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 16 May 2024 17:02 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Michael Fritsch Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics I know the document on bitsavers, but the series 700 is a complete different = one. In this reader there is no clamp or breake or similar things, but a stepper m= otor which drives two sprocket wheels. Between the wheels is the optical sens= or. In the moment I'm about to reverse engineer the board. The db25 connector at = the back is almost completely populated. I would like to known what the pin a= re for. Very good, that Decitek still exists. I will write them. Micha Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > It looks as though Decitek remain in business=20 > http://www.decitek.com/index.html >=20 > Scan of a series 700 reader manual on bitsavers=20 > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/decitek/ >=20 > On an optical reader, I would not recon the capstan running at power on as = unusual - a pinch roller which engages for drive and a tape clamp engaging fo= r stop motion are both common features. For simple single byte read operatio= ns, probably the paradigm used when the unit was built, it is not uncommon fo= r the sprocket hole to stop feed and energise clamp. The circuitry to contro= l this behaviour may be in the drive or controller or shared; and then there = are configuration links / switches ... >=20 > An empirical approach is to scope / LA the sprocket and data bit outputs; i= deally with a tape loop. >=20 > HtH; Martin >=20 --===============7907980618011681108==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu May 16 21:20:35 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 16:20:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3101885922859626594==" --===============3101885922859626594== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/16/24 15:15, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > Micha > > That the board is TTL and 2 layer by the look of it makes reverse engineeri= ng rather more tractable : good luck. > > The 25p D pin outs for readers/punches seem substantially standardised, I believe the standard is RS-323 (all search attempts assume=20 you mean RS-232).=C2=A0 The logic levels are 12 V or so, so not=20 quite TTL compatible. Jon --===============3101885922859626594==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Thu May 16 21:47:57 2024 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 21:46:53 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6633679936068096297==" --===============6633679936068096297== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The D-25 PTR / PTP parallel interfaces are TTL, the ones I have had on the be= nch at any rate, typically using 74 series for interfacing and 5V rails. Gen= erally, the data lines are on pins 1 to 8 after that it gets a bit YMMV and a= t the top end you get ground and exported voltage. Hence my Dostek's emulato= r is a good guide comment. Additionally, the pin out does not mimic what mus= t be the later D-25 PC printer plug layout. An additional confounding factor is that PTR/PTP are substantially from the e= ra when D-25 connectors were commonly used for RS232 serial comms, and quite = a few featured serial interfaces : RTFM territory. +/- 12V levels were used for RS232 back in the day, these days a MAX3232 on 3= v3/LVTTL with integral charge pumps for +/- 6v is typical. And of course RS-423, RS-422 and RS-485 are all potentially applicable interf= ace circuit standards; however only RS-485 is not in the legacy category Numeric gloup Martin -----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 16 May 2024 22:20 To: Martin Bishop via cctalk Cc: Jon Elson Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics On 5/16/24 15:15, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > Micha > > That the board is TTL and 2 layer by the look of it makes reverse engineeri= ng rather more tractable : good luck. > > The 25p D pin outs for readers/punches seem substantially=20 > standardised, I believe the standard is RS-323 (all search attempts assume you mean RS-232)= .=C2=A0 The logic levels are 12 V or so, so not quite TTL compatible. Jon --===============6633679936068096297==-- From marvin@west.net Fri May 17 09:55:53 2024 From: Marvin Johnston To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Mylar/Sponge Keyboard Repair Kits Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 02:49:07 -0700 Message-ID: <0f7e7e0d-4cb8-4906-bda8-908f55674173@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8684793587295892466==" --===============8684793587295892466== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've got a couple of keyboards where the sponge has disintegrated to the point they no longer work. The latest one is a Vector 3 keyboard and I would love to get it fixed. Can repair kits still be purchased and/or are the instructions for making those sponge/mylar pieces available? Thanks! Marvin --===============8684793587295892466==-- From pat@vax11.net Fri May 17 10:02:11 2024 From: Patrick Finnegan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mylar/Sponge Keyboard Repair Kits Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 06:01:50 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0f7e7e0d-4cb8-4906-bda8-908f55674173@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3023492048034411233==" --===============3023492048034411233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://texelec.com/product/foam-capacitive-pads-keytronic/ Patrick Finnegan On Fri, May 17, 2024, 05:55 Marvin Johnston via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've got a couple of keyboards where the sponge has disintegrated to the > point they no longer work. The latest one is a Vector 3 keyboard and I > would love to get it fixed. > > Can repair kits still be purchased and/or are the instructions for > making those sponge/mylar pieces available? > > Thanks! > > Marvin > > > --===============3023492048034411233==-- From amp1ron@gmail.com Fri May 17 11:13:10 2024 From: amp1ron@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mylar/Sponge Keyboard Repair Kits Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 07:13:03 -0400 Message-ID: <007901daa84b$3078fd20$916af760$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0f7e7e0d-4cb8-4906-bda8-908f55674173@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8602960684445130097==" --===============8602960684445130097== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TexElec makes and sells replacement "foam and foil" discs for those keyboards= . See https://texelec.com/product/foam-capacitive-pads-keytronic/ . They ar= e usually shown as on backorder. The one time I ordered a set, they were on = backorder and arrived a few weeks after I placed the order. I wouldn't recom= mend waiting for them to be in stock before ordering as that might require a = VERY long wait. -- Ron Pool -----Original Message----- From: Marvin Johnston via cctalk =20 Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 5:49 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Marvin Johnston Subject: [cctalk] Mylar/Sponge Keyboard Repair Kits I've got a couple of keyboards where the sponge has disintegrated to the=20 point they no longer work. The latest one is a Vector 3 keyboard and I=20 would love to get it fixed. Can repair kits still be purchased and/or are the instructions for=20 making those sponge/mylar pieces available? Thanks! Marvin --===============8602960684445130097==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri May 17 14:33:11 2024 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mylar/Sponge Keyboard Repair Kits Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 07:32:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0f7e7e0d-4cb8-4906-bda8-908f55674173@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5226491726332004017==" --===============5226491726332004017== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 17 May 2024, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > I've got a couple of keyboards where the sponge has disintegrated to the=20 > point they no longer work. The latest one is a Vector 3 keyboard and I woul= d=20 > love to get it fixed. > > Can repair kits still be purchased and/or are the instructions for making=20 > those sponge/mylar pieces available? > I think you can still get them from texelec.com. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============5226491726332004017==-- From alberto@museodelcomputer.org Fri May 17 17:13:27 2024 From: Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione Museo del Computer To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help request with fundraising campaign to save historic computers Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 15:57:48 +0200 Message-ID: <005601daa862$33fc3900$9bf4ab00$@org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7971399579343736442==" --===============7971399579343736442== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Sellam, I'm one of the volunteers of the Museum. > I would want to know more of the story and also to see more photos > before I > would consider donating. In the page of the fundraising I'm regulary putting pictures of some machines= that are part of this mission. But I cannot show all pictures, because the d= onation is from a governative entity and they ask to mantain reserved the inf= ormation until the end of the operations. In many pictures there are people o= r part of the offices. Which machines in particular are you interested in? I can see if I have any p= hotos and send them to you. Bye, Alberto. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione Museo del Computer Via per Occhieppo 29 - 13891 CAMBURZANO (BI) Tel 015 8853201 Fax 015 8853202 Mobile 335 6026632 Mail : alberto(a)museodelcomputer.org Web : www.museodelcomputer.org PEC : museodelcomputer(a)pec.it PI 02314610037 CF 94064520037 --===============7971399579343736442==-- From alberto@museodelcomputer.org Fri May 17 20:51:32 2024 From: Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione Museo del Computer To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help request with fundraising campaign to save historic computers Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 19:52:23 +0200 Message-ID: <005801daa882$f99be7d0$ecd3b770$@org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2809437545921751049==" --===============2809437545921751049== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Jay, thanks for the interest. >=20 > I'm on the same page with you, Sellam.=EF=BF=BD I would want to see a websi= te, > and a link to the donation page on that website before I would consider > donating. >=20 > JRJ Our website is http://www.museodelcomputer.org Sorry, at now is only in italian language. The first new on the homepage speak about this mission. In the fundrising page https://fundrazr.com/computermuseum you can read about the mission (english is after italian text) and I often po= st pictures that I can show (I can't show all pictures because is a governati= ve enviroment and they not allow. Answering to your other mail : > Is there a list somewhere of the machines? > Yes, I we have a list, but not complete, because some machine are unknown and= other are not accessible still we can move other machines that are blocking. > Also, if there are EXEC OS tapes there, make sure those are treated > with > care.=EF=BF=BD If they need help reading 7 track tapes and are willing to s= hip > them to the US, I can recommend a contact who recently read a 7 track > tape for me that dated back to the 1960s. > I've not seen many tapes, only sono reel to reel tapes but with no label :-( = But there are some box with unknown materials, they are sealed, it possible t= hat are filled with documentation and software. When we reach the goal that can allow the transport, then we can make an inve= ntory of all the machine and the materials on box and pallet. It's a very lar= ge storage full of materials. > First I saw that there is a website that folks may find useful. >=20 > http://www.museodelcomputer.org/ yes, it's our website, but is very old :-( we have to renew it and make in en= glish but the time is not a friend > That website has a donations page, but the translation process makes it > hard to find the link on that donation page, but I did see a link on > the > Italian version, and it does seem to point to the same place, so it > seems legit.=EF=BF=BD (There is a link I found on that page near the end of > this > posting). This is the link to the donation page, I hope work with the ENG parameter in = the path http://www.museodelcomputer.org/index.php/nav=3DInformazioni.35/Language=3DEN= G/MD=3D/SD=3D/Pagina=3D4 Sorry for the delay in the answer, but I've read only today Bye Alberto ---------------------------------------------------------------- Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione Museo del Computer Via per Occhieppo 29 - 13891 CAMBURZANO (BI) Tel 015 8853201 Fax 015 8853202 Mobile 335 6026632 Mail : alberto(a)museodelcomputer.org Web : www.museodelcomputer.org PEC : museodelcomputer(a)pec.it PI 02314610037 CF 94064520037 --===============2809437545921751049==-- From alberto@museodelcomputer.org Fri May 17 20:51:37 2024 From: Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione Museo del Computer To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help request with fundraising campaign to save historic computers Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 19:57:29 +0200 Message-ID: <005901daa883$b0b190a0$1214b1e0$@org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5341226908385886856==" --===============5341226908385886856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Liam,=20 sorry for the delay, I'm readin now > I shared the links on Vintage Computer Club on Facebook, but I agree: > you need an English language website, and an English language project > description, if you want to raise money internationally. You are right :-( we need a better website, the actual is of more than 15 yea= rs ago. And the english version is a MUST. We are working on, but we are all volontee= rs. =20 > The websites did not successfully go through Google Translate, > although the Museo homepage did in Firefox, oddly enough. Thank for the suggestion, now I go to check with google translate Bye Alberto ---------------------------------------------------------------- Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione Museo del Computer Via per Occhieppo 29 - 13891 CAMBURZANO (BI) Tel 015 8853201 Fax 015 8853202 Mobile 335 6026632 Mail : alberto(a)museodelcomputer.org Web : www.museodelcomputer.org PEC : museodelcomputer(a)pec.it PI 02314610037 CF 94064520037 > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5341226908385886856==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sun May 19 11:59:56 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NTSC TV demodulator Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 06:59:50 -0500 Message-ID: <1691207605.660953.1716119990965@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7866852196421414704==" --===============7866852196421414704== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a couple of 70s/80s "home" computers (e.g. Radio Shack Color Computer)= that are intended to connect to a TV set. They don't have easily available c= omposite video, even internally, only modulated RF output. Currently I have a= n old CRT TV that I use with them, but for various reasons that isn't practic= al long-term. Does anyone know of a small TV tuner that tunes old analog TV channels (US NT= SC) and outputs composite or VGA or HDMI signals? I've looked around a bit bu= t haven't found anything. It's relatively easy to build one, but I would pref= er a pre-built solution. And I'm sure others have run into this same problem. Thanks, Will --===============7866852196421414704==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Sun May 19 13:31:52 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTSC TV demodulator Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 08:31:44 -0500 Message-ID: <1454759630.842001.1716125504737@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <1691207605.660953.1716119990965@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8661943320632371672==" --===============8661943320632371672== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I presume the "digitial tv converter boxes" will pass through an analog signa= l, and suspect at least some of them provide a composite output. 
--Carey
> On 05/19/2024 6:59 AM CDT Will Cooke via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =20 > I have a couple of 70s/80s "home" computers (e.g. Radio Shack Color Compute= r) that are intended to connect to a TV set. They don't have easily available= composite video, even internally, only modulated RF output. Currently I have= an old CRT TV that I use with them, but for various reasons that isn't pract= ical long-term. >=20 > Does anyone know of a small TV tuner that tunes old analog TV channels (US = NTSC) and outputs composite or VGA or HDMI signals? I've looked around a bit = but haven't found anything. It's relatively easy to build one, but I would pr= efer a pre-built solution. And I'm sure others have run into this same probl= em. >=20 > Thanks, > Will --===============8661943320632371672==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Sun May 19 13:50:26 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTSC TV demodulator Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 09:50:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1691207605.660953.1716119990965@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4132681859802110169==" --===============4132681859802110169== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, May 19, 2024, 08:08 Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > I have a couple of 70s/80s "home" computers (e.g. Radio Shack Color > Computer) that are intended to connect to a TV set. They don't have easily > available composite video, even internally, only modulated RF output. > Currently I have an old CRT TV that I use with them, but for various > reasons that isn't practical long-term. > > Does anyone know of a small TV tuner that tunes old analog TV channels (US > NTSC) and outputs composite or VGA or HDMI signals? I've looked around a > bit but haven't found anything. It's relatively easy to build one, but I > would prefer a pre-built solution. And I'm sure others have run into this > same problem. > I just googled "rf to HDMI" and there appear to be several options from the usual large sellers. As I have no experience with them, I don't want to endorse any particular model. My assumption is that they would take output on NTSC channel 3 or 4, as was common for equipment of the time. -Henry > --===============4132681859802110169==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sun May 19 13:56:49 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTSC TV demodulator Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 08:56:43 -0500 Message-ID: <772270306.641035.1716127003937@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2616396652689936672==" --===============2616396652689936672== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 05/19/2024 8:50 AM CDT Henry Bent via cctalk w= rote: > > > On Sun, May 19, 2024, 08:08 Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > > > I have a couple of 70s/80s "home" computers (e.g. Radio Shack Color > > Computer) that are intended to connect to a TV set. They don't have easily > > available composite video, even internally, only modulated RF output. > > Currently I have an old CRT TV that I use with them, but for various > > reasons that isn't practical long-term. > > Does anyone know of a small TV tuner that tunes old analog TV channels (US > > NTSC) and outputs composite or VGA or HDMI signals? I've looked around a > > bit but haven't found anything. It's relatively easy to build one, but I > > would prefer a pre-built solution. And I'm sure others have run into this > > same problem. > > I just googled "rf to HDMI" and there appear to be several options from the > usual large sellers. As I have no experience with them, I don't want to > endorse any particular model. My assumption is that they would take output > on NTSC channel 3 or 4, as was common for equipment of the time. > > -Henry > > > Perfect! Thanks. I Googled all sorts of things except "rf". Will --===============2616396652689936672==-- From coryheisterkamp@gmail.com Sun May 19 14:00:11 2024 From: Cory Heisterkamp To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NTSC TV demodulator Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 08:59:41 -0500 Message-ID: <5E90938F-2C9F-46AC-A384-0A6FAA2E6AE6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1454759630.842001.1716125504737@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5262468524664282560==" --===============5262468524664282560== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My personal experience with DTV boxes (and I do have a small assortment I use= routinely), is that the analog pass-through only functions with the box off = (RF in->RF out), so no chance of A/V extraction in that case. The majority of= newer boxes have eliminated the pass-through option entirely. While not ideal if the goal is to reduce size, an old VCR is certainly smalle= r than a CRT TV and could provide this functionality. While prices are now cl= imbing on these, it should be easy enough to obtain one with a non-functional= transport for almost nothing. A handful of the DVD/VHS combo units even had = HDMI output. Do keep in mind that some of the early home systems bend the rules with NTSC = timing, so what looks good on your CRT may not be acceptable on an LCD, and b= uyer-beware on the published specs of off the shelf converters. -C > On May 19, 2024, at 8:31 AM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I presume the "digitial tv converter boxes" will pass through an analog sig= nal, and suspect at least some of them provide a composite output. >=20 > 
--Carey
>=20 >> On 05/19/2024 6:59 AM CDT Will Cooke via cctalk = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> I have a couple of 70s/80s "home" computers (e.g. Radio Shack Color Comput= er) that are intended to connect to a TV set. They don't have easily availabl= e composite video, even internally, only modulated RF output. Currently I hav= e an old CRT TV that I use with them, but for various reasons that isn't prac= tical long-term. >>=20 >> Does anyone know of a small TV tuner that tunes old analog TV channels (US= NTSC) and outputs composite or VGA or HDMI signals? I've looked around a bit= but haven't found anything. It's relatively easy to build one, but I would p= refer a pre-built solution. And I'm sure others have run into this same prob= lem. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Will --===============5262468524664282560==-- From merlyn@geeks.org Sun May 19 14:02:36 2024 From: Doug McIntyre To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTSC TV demodulator Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 08:53:15 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1691207605.660953.1716119990965@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8596372689615771650==" --===============8596372689615771650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 06:59:50AM -0500, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > I have a couple of 70s/80s "home" computers (e.g. Radio Shack Color Compute= r) that are intended to connect to a TV set. They don't have easily available= composite video, even internally, only modulated RF output. Currently I have= an old CRT TV that I use with them, but for various reasons that isn't pract= ical long-term. >=20 > Does anyone know of a small TV tuner that tunes old analog TV channels (US = NTSC) and outputs composite or VGA or HDMI signals? I've looked around a bit = but haven't found anything. It's relatively easy to build one, but I would pr= efer a pre-built solution. And I'm sure others have run into this same probl= em. Nothing small. I've had tuner boxes in the past that were as large as a VCR. I also have used a VCR to do the function you are asking about. Surely an ancient used VCR would be the absolute cheapest solution. NTSC Tuner boxes are a niche item, and exist, but are _expensive_. The same with video demodulators, they exist, but are very pricey. The retro-home computer community has come through alot with hardware to get = something more modern for video output on these old computers. Ie. https://coco3.org/ mentions several FPGA projects to plug into the comput= er to get modern video out. I'm eyeing a https://www.reactivemicro.com/product/a2fpga-multicard/ for my A= pple ][ The main problem with the hobiest hardware, is that they only do small batches, and have to get enough orders together to make it worthwhile to do another run. So you may have to wait a very long time. Sometimes you can find these used on eBay (for outrageous prices, but such is the nature).=20 But as you've seen, alot of these are open-hardware, so people can do it themselves with enough traction behind it. Print-to-order PCBs are super c= heap. Electronics parts can be expensive, but thats what makes these small hobbiest= boards expensive, that they don't get to order the big chips in batches of 10,000 to= get a good price. --===============8596372689615771650==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Sun May 19 15:21:05 2024 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 08:14:42 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3511608310405191014==" --===============3511608310405191014== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BFA friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in= their thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a = Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think= she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the part= y host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the early days of= computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. What I found dis= appointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about com= puting history or even early computers. Except for their recall of the 3.5 fl= oppy or early 2000=E2=80=99s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else that = they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our livin= g version of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in this g= roup witnessed the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop with= our generation. I assume that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup are = in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to anyone. I am turning fifty myself= ) I sense that no other generation following this user group's generation wi= ll ever talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything dee= med exciting in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the line for = the most exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts? Regards, Tarek Hoteit --===============3511608310405191014==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Sun May 19 15:38:54 2024 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 16:38:46 +0100 Message-ID: <64ebad7f-75f2-4b17-88f5-d39e8f923a3e@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8181273605303389019==" --===============8181273605303389019== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Younger folk are indeed more ignorant of where technology came from, but=20 i wouldn't say all of them are. I'm 32 years young and, well, i'm=20 posting this email on the mailing list, so that probably says enough. Sure, the pool of those interested in old computer tech might be smaller=20 nowadays than it used to be, but then so is the pool of those interested=20 in Ford Model T's or gasoline powered Maytag washing machines, or steam=20 traction engines. But as long as stuff exists, there will be people=20 interested in tinkering with it. It's just that some tech is just not=20 relevant any more, so those exposed to it or used it in anger are going=20 to be fewer and far between. It's OK to be concerned, but i don't think the retro computing scene is=20 as dire as some might make it out to be. Cheers, Josh Rice On 19/05/2024 16:14, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > =EF=BB=BFA friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was = in their thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met = a Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I thi= nk she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the pa= rty host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the early days = of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. What I found d= isappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about c= omputing history or even early computers. Except for their recall of the 3.5 = floppy or early 2000=E2=80=99s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else tha= t they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our liv= ing version of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in this= group witnessed the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop wi= th our generation. I assume that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup ar= e in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to anyone. I am turning fifty myse= lf) I sense that no other generation following this user group's generation = will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything d= eemed exciting in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the line fo= r the most exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts? > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > --===============8181273605303389019==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Sun May 19 15:56:24 2024 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 08:46:37 -0700 Message-ID: <6EAC19CE-21BF-4102-9895-B8271B21716F@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3258384561295995563==" --===============3258384561295995563== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BFThank you, Josh. How did your passion start with classical computers= ? Maybe this helps in understanding the generation? Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On May 19, 2024, at 08:39, Joshua Rice via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFYounger folk are indeed more ignorant of where technology came fro= m, but i wouldn't say all of them are. I'm 32 years young and, well, i'm post= ing this email on the mailing list, so that probably says enough. >=20 > Sure, the pool of those interested in old computer tech might be smaller no= wadays than it used to be, but then so is the pool of those interested in For= d Model T's or gasoline powered Maytag washing machines, or steam traction en= gines. But as long as stuff exists, there will be people interested in tinker= ing with it. It's just that some tech is just not relevant any more, so those= exposed to it or used it in anger are going to be fewer and far between. >=20 > It's OK to be concerned, but i don't think the retro computing scene is as = dire as some might make it out to be. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Josh Rice >=20 >> On 19/05/2024 16:14, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >> =EF=BB=BFA friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was= in their thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met= a Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I th= ink she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the p= arty host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the early days= of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. What I found = disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about = computing history or even early computers. Except for their recall of the 3.5= floppy or early 2000=E2=80=99s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else th= at they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our li= ving version of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in thi= s group witnessed the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop w= ith our generation. I assume that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup a= re in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to anyone. I am turning fifty mys= elf) I sense that no other generation following this user group's generation= will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything = deemed exciting in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the line f= or the most exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts? >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit --===============3258384561295995563==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun May 19 15:58:11 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 08:57:54 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6503345453828242800==" --===============6503345453828242800== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am seeing this hobby growing beyond my own expectations, and a lot of younger people are coming into it. Many people in their teens and twenties are newly discovering the 8-bit computers with which I grew up. I had no concept of computer history until I fell into the hobby, and was fascinated to learn all about the computers that came before my time, including the S-100s of the 1970s, then the mini-computers of the prior generation on which the S-100 machines were based, and then the mainframes on which the minicomputers were based. I was floored when I first learned that the ENIAC was up and running in the 1940s--a digital computer in the 1940s!! Today it seems almost obvious, because I've studied--basically lived--computer history for so long now. Like with any passion, you either get it or you don't. Out of the handful of computer professionals you spoke to, maybe 1 of them will delve deeper into the history and come away somewhat interested, perhaps inspired in some way, but for the most part, their career does not depend on knowing where it all started, just like a mechanic can know every last part of a car without needing to know about Ford, the Dodge brothers, etc. But as new people continue to find their way into this hobby, each will find their niche, and as long as we today do a good job of preserving what came before us to present up to the people who come after, there will at least be that opportunity for newcomers to discover and explore the various facets of computer history. In short, yes, it will live on, thanks in part to us. Sellam On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 8:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their > thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a > Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I > think she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with > the party host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the > early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. > What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost > ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for their > recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely > nothing else that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a > sign that our living version of classical personal computing, in which many > of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in > the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging > folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to > anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation > following this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M > s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is > there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of > personal computers? Thoughts? > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > > --===============6503345453828242800==-- From mark.romberg@gmail.com Sun May 19 16:10:19 2024 From: mark audacity romberg To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 11:10:02 -0500 Message-ID: <0663FAF1-18F7-4BDE-8295-A2AF4A5C4F4B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7061552302404488730==" --===============7061552302404488730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How much did you know about tub files or Telex exchanges at their age? Same d= eal.=20 You know about it because you were there, and you=E2=80=99re confusing knowle= dge of a specific era with knowledge of the era immediately prior to one=E2= =80=99s own.=20 Will people who weren=E2=80=99t alive for the computers of the 80s feel for t= hem the way people who remember them do? Of course not. They=E2=80=99ll feel = that way about a generation newer, in the same way that as a hobbyist you did= n=E2=80=99t build your own edge-notched card system. We=E2=80=99re already se= eing Gen Z enthusiasts get really into late-90s off-brand beige Wintel boxen,= which is baffling to me as someone who lived through that era and thinks it= =E2=80=99s about as exciting as collecting Kleenex, but that=E2=80=99s their = version of Millennials trying to revive the 80s technofuture.=20 Remember that relative age and absolute age are not interchangeable, and cons= ider whether you celebrate the era you do because you picked it out of all th= e possibilities, or because it=E2=80=99s what=E2=80=99s nostalgic for you bas= ed on when you were forming those early memories. :) =E2=80=94m.a (the TL;dr is that any statement that hinges on =E2=80=9Ckids these days can= =E2=80=99t $skill=E2=80=9D is usually not materially of much weight and is a = lack of perspective on the speaker=E2=80=99s part. It was said about your gen= eration by your parents, and the one before that, and the one before that, ba= ck to the first sharpened stone. The specifics change, but the phenomenon has= n=E2=80=99t been new for twenty thousand years.=20 Don't get your mind get old. It=E2=80=99s a choice.) > On May 19, 2024, at 10:58, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI am seeing this hobby growing beyond my own expectations, and a l= ot of > younger people are coming into it. Many people in their teens and twenties > are newly discovering the 8-bit computers with which I grew up. I had no > concept of computer history until I fell into the hobby, and was fascinated > to learn all about the computers that came before my time, including the > S-100s of the 1970s, then the mini-computers of the prior generation on > which the S-100 machines were based, and then the mainframes on which the > minicomputers were based. I was floored when I first learned that the > ENIAC was up and running in the 1940s--a digital computer in the 1940s!! > Today it seems almost obvious, because I've studied--basically > lived--computer history for so long now. >=20 > Like with any passion, you either get it or you don't. Out of the handful > of computer professionals you spoke to, maybe 1 of them will delve deeper > into the history and come away somewhat interested, perhaps inspired in > some way, but for the most part, their career does not depend on knowing > where it all started, just like a mechanic can know every last part of a > car without needing to know about Ford, the Dodge brothers, etc. >=20 > But as new people continue to find their way into this hobby, each will > find their niche, and as long as we today do a good job of preserving what > came before us to present up to the people who come after, there will at > least be that opportunity for newcomers to discover and explore the various > facets of computer history. >=20 > In short, yes, it will live on, thanks in part to us. >=20 > Sellam >=20 >> On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFAM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their >> thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a >> Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I >> think she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with >> the party host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the >> early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. >> What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost >> ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for their >> recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000=E2=80=99s Windows, there was absolu= tely >> nothing else that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a >> sign that our living version of classical personal computing, in which many >> of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in >> the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging >> folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to >> anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation >> following this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M >> s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is >> there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of >> personal computers? Thoughts? >>=20 >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 --===============7061552302404488730==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sun May 19 16:13:12 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 12:12:54 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7863825237353236652==" --===============7863825237353236652== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What I find a little sad is that the accounting machine world has been almost entirely ignored. The punched card batch processing systems such as IBM's 402/403/407 machines and peripherals are documented and even still in existence here and there, but the manual entry machines that could once be found in every bank branch or small office and were the foundations of computer companies like Burroughs, NCR etc. have largely disappeared and are pretty sparsely documented. It's quite interesting to follow their evolution from motor-driven purely mechanical monsters full of cams, levers and springs corresponding to and actually called accumulators, registers etc. to completely solid state electronic systems with disk and tape drives, displays and terminals, line printers, communication capability, PPT and punched card devices etc. etc. Along the way there were many interesting innovations like small 96 column punched cards, magnetic striped ledger cards and automatic feeder/stackers, multiple cassette drives equivalent to the open reel versions, custom devices like the 'core counter' (a non-volatile electro-magnetic device that emitted a pulse for every 10 input pulses) etc.; a shame that so little documentation and examples remain today. m On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 11:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their > thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a > Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I > think she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with > the party host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the > early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. > What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost > ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for their > recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely > nothing else that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a > sign that our living version of classical personal computing, in which many > of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in > the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging > folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to > anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation > following this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M > s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is > there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of > personal computers? Thoughts? > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > > --===============7863825237353236652==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun May 19 16:14:56 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 09:14:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6EAC19CE-21BF-4102-9895-B8271B21716F@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4519945087104828300==" --===============4519945087104828300== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 8:56 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thank you, Josh. How did your passion start with classical computers? > Maybe this helps in understanding the generation? > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > I was 26 when I joined the list in 1997. I was a younger member of the crowd back then, because my experience with computers was limited to micros, whereas a lot of the discussion on the list was about minicomputers and mainframes that came well before my time, so I imagine that there were members in their 50s and 60s in the early days. Now I'm in my 50s and have observed 25 more years of invention and development in the computer field, and the growth of this hobby in terms of size and reach (it's now global). Now there are guys (and gals) in their 60s, 70s and 80s involved in the hobby, maintaining old systems, attending VCFs and reminiscing on mailing lists. It's definitely become multigenerational. I see so many parallels in the hobby currently to my time when I first got into it. The things younger folks are doing today with the benefit of coming into a world more increasingly computerized than the one I did, and having access at a younger age to the tools of technology and having a comfort and proficiency with them, can do stuff I could only dream about a quarter century ago, just as I then was able to easily and readily accomplish things with old machines--with the benefit of the internet--that those who came before me only dreamt about in their time. The most amazing thing to me about computer history back in the 1990s and early 2000s when this hobby really started to get going is that we lived at a time when many of the people who literally invented the industry were still around to be interviewed. It would be like a classic car collector being able to go meet Ford and ask him questions in person about the Model A or whatever. Sellam --===============4519945087104828300==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Sun May 19 16:28:21 2024 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 17:28:13 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6EAC19CE-21BF-4102-9895-B8271B21716F@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7164618681877575815==" --===============7164618681877575815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well my interest in computers started in my teens. I liked tinkering=20 with hardware and playing with OSes, but growing up in the 2000's, the=20 technology landscape had already "stagnated" into PC dominance. I=20 suppose there's only so much messing with Linux and other FOSS operating=20 systems you can do before you yearn for something different. Getting hold of a BBC Micro in my early 20's definitely scratched that=20 "something different" itch, and i found i quite liked it. 10 years later=20 and i've got a house full of tinkering projects. The vintage computing=20 bug bit me well and truly in my early 20's, when i was old enough to at=20 least know the basics of what i was doing. It generally helps to be exposed to this stuff at a young age. For me, i=20 just found modern tech to be quite "mundane", and yearned for something=20 different, so seeked out vintage systems on my own back. I guess it's=20 the same for car mechanics who have a classic car they tinker with on=20 the weekends, or electricians and electrical engineers who mess around=20 with vintage AV equipment as a side hobby. Some people might have seen=20 their object of desire in old TV or films, or went to a museum or show=20 and saw something that intrigues them, and felt it would be worthwhile=20 persuing the desire to have their own to tinker with. Of course, there=20 are those that get into it when they're older. I'm pretty sure Adrian=20 Black didn't get into vintage computing until fairly recently, and he's=20 got a few more years on him than i do. Where people who get into a hobby revolving around vintage technology of=20 whatever caliber they choose, actually get their inspiration from, will=20 be different for everyone. But the fact that there's 150 year old steam=20 engines still working today shows that you don't have to have used this=20 stuff in "anger" to have an interest in preserving it. Cheers, Josh Rice On 19/05/2024 16:46, Tarek Hoteit wrote: > =EF=BB=BFThank you, Josh. How did your passion start with classical compute= rs? Maybe this helps in understanding the generation? > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit --===============7164618681877575815==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun May 19 16:30:43 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 09:30:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3167959073808364793==" --===============3167959073808364793== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 9:13=E2=80=AFAM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > What I find a little sad is that the accounting machine world has been > almost entirely ignored. > > The punched card batch processing systems such as IBM's 402/403/407 > machines and peripherals are documented and even still in existence here > and there, but the manual entry machines that could once be found in every > bank branch or small office and were the foundations of computer companies > like Burroughs, NCR etc. have largely disappeared and are pretty sparsely > documented. > > It's quite interesting to follow their evolution from motor-driven purely > mechanical monsters full of cams, levers and springs corresponding to and > actually called accumulators, registers etc. to completely solid state > electronic systems with disk and tape drives, displays and terminals, line > printers, communication capability, PPT and punched card devices etc. etc. > > Along the way there were many interesting innovations like small 96 column > punched cards, magnetic striped ledger cards and automatic feeder/stackers, > multiple cassette drives equivalent to the open reel versions, custom > devices like the 'core counter' (a non-volatile electro-magnetic device > that emitted a pulse for every 10 input pulses) etc.; a shame that so > little documentation and examples remain today. > Before my dreams were derailed, I was working on acquiring and assembling a complete punched card data processing set up, just to experience it. It would be fun to do such if I still had the resources and the time and nothing else to do, but it takes a lot of time and resources, whereas an old digital computer, even some of the big power hungry beasts of the 60s, can still do something more interesting than just move paper around. I would compare it to the reason why interest in old radios peaked and then died out in the 2000s: all the people who had an interest in that stuff passed on; and there's only so much an old radio can do. It can receive and deliver an audio signal, poorly. That's an activity one might rather enjoy on modern equipment. The same with old punched card equipment. It's fun to run cards through it, but other than that, most people don't even get what it's doing. It's doing one thing of the whole "computing" process, poorly. There's no much interest in that, and only so many people can devote the space, power, and maintenance to an entire punched card data processing setup. That being said, I believe the Haus zur Geschichte der IBM Datenverarbeitung (House of the History of IBM Data Processing) in Sindelfingen, Germany may still be demonstrating that very thing, or at least they were when I visited in the mid-2000s with Hans Franke. Here's an old article about it =3D=3D> https://www.smh.com.au/technology/history-galore-at-ibm-museum-20050201-gdklj= v.html Sellam --===============3167959073808364793==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun May 19 16:31:33 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 12:31:20 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4412003734870411104==" --===============4412003734870411104== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/19/2024 11:14 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their = thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a Google = engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she wa= s a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the party host.= I had several conversations about computer origins, the early days of comput= ing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. What I found disappoint= ing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about computing = history or even early computers. Except for their recall of the 3.5 floppy or= early 2000=E2=80=99s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else that they we= re familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our living versi= on of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in this group wi= tnessed the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop with our ge= neration. I assume that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup are in thei= r fifties and beyond. (No offense to anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I se= nse that no other generation following this user group's generation will ever= talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exc= iting in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the line for the mos= t exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts? I'm 73. How do you think I feel. I worked for 25 years in a Computer Science Department of a University and not only did they not teach any of the history. They mostly didn't know it themselves anyway. I kept PDP-11's and Vaxen in the department for the students to see and, if they wished, use but eventually I was told it was wasting space and when they moved the department to the new science building there was no space allocated for anything but the bare minimum of equipment. bill --===============4412003734870411104==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun May 19 16:42:10 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 11:42:00 -0500 Message-ID: <903a468d-b4c7-c4c1-7f81-db73bb4d5ac0@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2483137671590460462==" --===============2483137671590460462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/19/24 10:57, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I am seeing this hobby growing beyond my own expectations, and a lot of > younger people are coming into it. Yes, I have been to two Vintage Computer Fests at the Chicago location.  Most of the people there are fairly young.  There are some older guys demonstrating PDP-8's, Data General Novas and similar vintage gear.  Then TONS of TRS-80s, Commodores, etc.  I'm 73, by the way. Jon --===============2483137671590460462==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sun May 19 16:55:00 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 12:54:41 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0561339533252503974==" --===============0561339533252503974== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In my post about the accounting machine era I forgot to mention that of course they were all programmable; the mechanical versions used different length pins, sometimes custom made with a special tool, that went into a 'magazine' to define the various columns and the operations to be performed there; as electronics started to take over, patch panels full of jumper wires (just like IBM's EAM panels) appeared, and finally 'soft' programming appeared with assemblers, report generators and 'high' level languages cross-compiled on larger systems. Programs were loaded by inserting a 'magazine' (usually about 30" long and weighing about 10 lbs.), inserting a patch panel, or the 'modern way' from punched cards*, paper tape, magnetic cards, mag tape or cassette, diskette or even remotely. *Another innovation was the 'Edge punched card', a card normally the size of an 80 column Hollerith card but with 8-column paper tape punched holes along the edge so it could be read with a PPT reader. A shame that there isn't a video anywhere of an operator entering data into a Burroughs L9000 and then processing it with 4 cassettes spinning back and forth like their big brothers, automatically feeding ledger cards through the console and the external high-speed reader, printing a log and reports on the dual console printer and the external high-speed printer, maybe sending summary data to a remote system etc., while the operator takes a coffee break. BTW, AFAIK the Burroughs B80 and B90 were the last machines of this class and the only ones with (8") diskette drives; does anyone know of any later ones? m On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 11:28=E2=80=AFAM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > > A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their = thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a Google = engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she wa= s a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the party host.= I had several conversations about computer origins, the early days of comput= ing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. What I found disappoint= ing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about computing = history or even early computers. Except for their recall of the 3.5 floppy or= early 2000=E2=80=99s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else that they we= re familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our living versi= on of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in this group wi= tnessed the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop with our ge= neration. I assume that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup are in thei= r fifties and beyond. (No offense to anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I se= nse that no other generation following this user group's generation will ever= talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exc= iting in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the line for the mos= t exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts? > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > --===============0561339533252503974==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Sun May 19 16:59:59 2024 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 09:59:21 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3726082446588055132==" --===============3726082446588055132== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BFBut, Bill, maybe you did influence at least one student or more when= you showed them the PDP or VAX. Perhaps we don't know who, but we have to ke= ep believing that we are influencing someone somewhere. The fact that you are= 73 (Jon also said he is in his 70s) and your passion is rock solid is an exc= ellent attestation that those who love computers are unique and will always d= o so. We don't need every techie to be involved, only the passionate ones. Jo= sh is deep into classic computers in his thirties, as he said. Sellam joined = the group in his twenties, thirty years ago. Many of us are of different age= s. I am in my fifty and touched the first computer key on a keyboard in 78. T= his group maybe one of the last mailing lists standing about classical comput= er. To be specific: I saw a lot of Discord channels on retro computers but th= ey all lack true experienced folks who actually worked on such machines. I = guess the most important thing is for that special geek out there is to be aw= are of this distribution and make sure to keep it running=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit AI Consultant, PhD +1 360-838-3675 > On May 19, 2024, at 09:31, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > =EF=BB=BF >=20 > On 5/19/2024 11:14 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >> A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their= thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a Google= engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she w= as a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the party host= . I had several conversations about computer origins, the early days of compu= ting, its importance in what we have today, and so on. What I found disappoin= ting and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about computing= history or even early computers. Except for their recall of the 3.5 floppy o= r early 2000=E2=80=99s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else that they w= ere familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our living vers= ion of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in this group w= itnessed the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop with our g= eneration. I assume that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup are in the= ir fifties and beyond. (No offense to anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I s= ense that no other generation following this user group's generation will eve= r talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed ex= citing in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the line for the mo= st exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts? >=20 >=20 > I'm 73. How do you think I feel. I worked for 25 years in a Computer > Science Department of a University and not only did they not teach any > of the history. They mostly didn't know it themselves anyway. I kept > PDP-11's and Vaxen in the department for the students to see and, if > they wished, use but eventually I was told it was wasting space and > when they moved the department to the new science building there was > no space allocated for anything but the bare minimum of equipment. >=20 > bill --===============3726082446588055132==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun May 19 17:38:51 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 13:38:43 -0400 Message-ID: <1F3B9E97-3BA5-4DC0-8DBB-A68DEAD8E54D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2948278653167783266==" --===============2948278653167783266== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 19, 2024, at 11:14 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >=20 > A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their = thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a Google = engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she wa= s a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the party host.= I had several conversations about computer origins, the early days of comput= ing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. What I found disappoint= ing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about computing = history or even early computers. ... I don't find this very surprising. It's just a special case of the fact that= few young people know much about history. And the fact that they know so li= ttle about the country's history is a far more serious matter than that they = know so little about the history of computing. That said, I've run into a number of young people who definitely are interest= ed. On the PLATO system at Cyber1.org there are a number of them. One is a = CS professor who teaches a course about computer games, and has brought the P= LATO multi-user games that date back to the 1970s into that class. Another i= s a small business tech owner/engineer who has made himself into one of the w= orld's top experts on the PLATO plasma terminals -- which are older than he i= s. paul --===============2948278653167783266==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sun May 19 17:42:41 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 13:42:23 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2081318333920328933==" --===============2081318333920328933== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're right in that the IBM unit record batch EAM stuff is mainly 'only' interesting in a historical sense (although ISTR that there were a (very) few games that you could play on them); they evolved into the mainframes we know and love. I find them interesting from a 'system' PoV: when you're in a room with one of these it's like physically being inside a large computer; there's a separate machine to sort data, another to merge files, another to do calculations, one to update files, another to add, subtract and print, etc., with the operator acting as the 'bus' by carrying decks of cards (data) from one machine to the next. Gives you a different perspective on data processing. But the 'manual' accounting machines also evolved into 'real' computers, but smaller and really no different from an S100 system except for the physical configuration (e.g. the integrated keyboard/printer). The later Burroughs L & B series had card cages and removable cards about the same size and functions as S100, used cassette, diskette and paper tape I/O, could communicated with remote systems and could be programmed in machine language, assembler, report generator or even high level languages such as Cobol. Yes, there was a Lunar Lander program! m On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 12:30=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 9:13=E2=80=AFAM Mike Stein via cctalk > wrote: > > > What I find a little sad is that the accounting machine world has been > > almost entirely ignored. > > > > The punched card batch processing systems such as IBM's 402/403/407 > > machines and peripherals are documented and even still in existence here > > and there, but the manual entry machines that could once be found in every > > bank branch or small office and were the foundations of computer companies > > like Burroughs, NCR etc. have largely disappeared and are pretty sparsely > > documented. > > > > It's quite interesting to follow their evolution from motor-driven purely > > mechanical monsters full of cams, levers and springs corresponding to and > > actually called accumulators, registers etc. to completely solid state > > electronic systems with disk and tape drives, displays and terminals, line > > printers, communication capability, PPT and punched card devices etc. etc. > > > > Along the way there were many interesting innovations like small 96 column > > punched cards, magnetic striped ledger cards and automatic feeder/stacker= s, > > multiple cassette drives equivalent to the open reel versions, custom > > devices like the 'core counter' (a non-volatile electro-magnetic device > > that emitted a pulse for every 10 input pulses) etc.; a shame that so > > little documentation and examples remain today. > > > > Before my dreams were derailed, I was working on acquiring and assembling a > complete punched card data processing set up, just to experience it. > > It would be fun to do such if I still had the resources and the time and > nothing else to do, but it takes a lot of time and resources, whereas an > old digital computer, even some of the big power hungry beasts of the 60s, > can still do something more interesting than just move paper around. > > I would compare it to the reason why interest in old radios peaked and then > died out in the 2000s: all the people who had an interest in that stuff > passed on; and there's only so much an old radio can do. It can receive > and deliver an audio signal, poorly. That's an activity one might rather > enjoy on modern equipment. The same with old punched card equipment. It's > fun to run cards through it, but other than that, most people don't even > get what it's doing. It's doing one thing of the whole "computing" > process, poorly. There's no much interest in that, and only so many people > can devote the space, power, and maintenance to an entire punched card data > processing setup. > > That being said, I believe the Haus zur Geschichte der IBM > Datenverarbeitung (House of the History of IBM Data Processing) in > Sindelfingen, Germany may still be demonstrating that very thing, or at > least they were when I visited in the mid-2000s with Hans Franke. > > Here's an old article about it =3D=3D> > https://www.smh.com.au/technology/history-galore-at-ibm-museum-20050201-gdk= ljv.html > > Sellam --===============2081318333920328933==-- From blstuart@bellsouth.net Sun May 19 18:19:31 2024 From: "Brian L. Stuart" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 18:16:03 +0000 Message-ID: <889862876.1758611.1716142563259@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3104556660005256386==" --===============3104556660005256386== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suppose this makes a good point for me to jump in with my 20 milli-dollars= worth. =C2=A0To establish context, I'm in the middle to upper part of the age= rangeat 62. =C2=A0My first contact with a computer was my cousin's Altair ar= ound '76or '77. =C2=A0The first exposure to information about computing were = a PDP-8manual and a FORTRAN manual centered on the 1620 in the attic growingu= p. I'm not sure where it came from, but even as early as my freshman year ofcoll= ege, I had some interest in the history of the field. =C2=A0Several of us mis= seda few days of class to attend NCC '81 in Chicago. =C2=A0That year they wer= ecelebrating the 35th anniversary of the UNIVAC I. =C2=A0One of the days wasd= esignated "founders' day" and they had a session where several earlypioneers = spoke. =C2=A0My memory is a little foggy, but I'm pretty sure the listinclude= d Hopper, Backus, Eckert, Kay Mauchly (John had already passed),and I think m= aybe even Zuse. =C2=A0To this day, I've never been able to finda definitive l= ist of who was there, much less a recording or transcript ofwhat they said. = =C2=A0But it definitely made an impression on me. =C2=A0That eventwas also co= upled with an accidental brush with history during my undergraddays. =C2=A0On= e day I was wandering through the stacks at the library when abook caught my = eye. =C2=A0The spine simply had the title "Manual of Operation."Of course, I = had to take the volume down and see what it was the manualof operation for. = =C2=A0It was an original copy of the manual for the Harvard Mark I!Needless t= o say, I checked it out. On Sunday, May 19, 2024 at 05:00:04=E2=80=AFPM UTC, Tarek Hoteit via ccta= lk wrote: =20 > But, Bill, maybe you did influence at least one student or more when you s= howed them> the PDP or VAX. Perhaps we don't know who, but we have to keep be= lieving that we are> influencing someone somewhere. That brings us to the present where I'm also on the faculty of a universityan= d am doing but a tiny amount to try to keep the history alive. =C2=A0On Tueda= y,I'll be doing what I've come to call my CS professor endurance test wherefo= r six lectures in a row, I'll be presenting what has become a traditionallect= ure for our freshmen. =C2=A0In it, I trace a line of influence from the Whirl= wind,through the LINC, to a PDP-8/M that I demonstrate for the class, to the8= -bit computers that I grew up with. =C2=A0I've generally heard good thingsabo= ut the experience, so there are at least some who are getting somevery brief = exposure. The other comment I'll make has to do with the natural evolution ofthe hobby/= study of history. =C2=A0The older things get, the more studyingthem becomes s= omething specialized. =C2=A0The number of people whoare enthusiasts of the '7= 0s and '80s 8-bit micros here is certainly verystrong, and quite a number of = us are also into minis from the likes ofDEC, DG, and HP. =C2=A0But the intere= st in the vacuum tube machines ismuch more specialized. =C2=A0It's natural to= gravitate to what was availableand aspirational when we were first exposed t= o computing, but therewill always be some of us who go deep into older stuff.= =C2=A0I, myself, amseveral years down the rabbit hole of the ENIAC, the most= recent bitbeing a direct demonstration of its Turing completeness: http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/eniac/turing/ So I feel confident that the interest will always be there, but it will alway= sbe confined to a relatively small subset of those in the field. =C2=A0As muc= h asI think we'd all argue that it's important for anyone to know about the h= istoryof their field, it's not likely to become pervasive unless the big-name= employerssitting on advisory boards for CS departments start saying "you rea= lly needto have a required computer history class." =C2=A0When every CS major= hasthe experience of writing some PDP-8 assembly code and toggling itin on a= front panel, when they all have the experience of realizing a differentialeq= uation on an analog computer, when they have all written a simulatorfor an ol= d machine, then I'll be able to die happy. =C2=A0At this rate, I'll live fore= ver. BLS =20 --===============3104556660005256386==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun May 19 18:57:42 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTSC TV demodulator Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 11:57:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1691207605.660953.1716119990965@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2528922612259524061==" --===============2528922612259524061== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 19 May 2024, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > I have a couple of 70s/80s "home" computers (e.g. Radio Shack Color > Computer) that are intended to connect to a TV set. They don't have > easily available composite video, even internally, only modulated RF > output. Currently I have an old CRT TV that I use with them, but for > various reasons that isn't practical long-term. > Does anyone know of a small TV tuner that tunes old analog TV channels > (US NTSC) and outputs composite or VGA or HDMI signals? I've looked > around a bit but haven't found anything. It's relatively easy to build > one, but I would prefer a pre-built solution. And I'm sure others have > run into this same problem. VCR, Digital converter box, Closed caption decoder even some TVs have a composite out, all of which had RF input All of those are now old. Not all of those have composite output out, but such do exist for each of those. You should know that your specific example, Radio Shack Color Computer, can produce composite internally with trivial modifications. A large number of such machines internally share a common RF module; if you identify the input to their RF modulator, often clipping onto that may be all you need. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2528922612259524061==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 19 20:26:51 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 14:26:35 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4857968684513739713==" --===============4857968684513739713== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-05-19 9:14 a.m., Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > =EF=BB=BFA friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was = in their thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met = a Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I thi= nk she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the pa= rty host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the early days = of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. What I found d= isappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about c= omputing history or even early computers. Except for their recall of the 3.5 = floppy or early 2000=E2=80=99s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else tha= t they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our liv= ing version of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in this= group witnessed the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop wi= th our generation. I assume that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup ar= e in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to anyone. I am turning fifty myse= lf) I sense that no other generation following this user group's generation = will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything d= eemed exciting in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the line fo= r the most exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts? >=20 > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit >=20 Well with the internet I have been finding a lot more about behind the=20 history of the 1970's. The West Coast made the chips, and the East coast made the computers,=20 while here in Canada,We just got to watch computers on TV with the=20 blinking lights back then and the few chip sold by Radio Shack. Back then you could get to build a computer of some kind, on the kitchen table, as the knowledge was available, and parts Thu the hole. People are going retro simply because modern computers are too complex with documentation known to a few. The Z80 may be long gone, but I am sure lots of 8080's are sill for sale on ebay. I wanted to build a computer in my teens, and now I have time and the=20 money. Looking back in time I see how bad the tech was back the for the average Joe. BASIC to rot your brain. 4K ram so you never learned how to comment stuff. Word lengths 4,8,16 so you spent all your time shoe horning a stuff to fit. Parts costing a arm and a leg, and three weeks for delivery. (Today parts from China 95 cents, 2 months delivery and arm and leg for=20 shipping). My latest design on paper, requires 74LSXX,74H74,CY7C122 (25ns 256x4=20 ram),13 mhz osc, and lots of cmos 22V10's.A 18 bit serial cpu, with a memory cycle time of 2.25 uS. I am still working on my personal computer. Who knows,It might even work, but first the EMULATOR and cross assembler. Ben. --===============4857968684513739713==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 19 20:31:44 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 14:31:27 -0600 Message-ID: <3f3a370e-2ece-4777-b25f-9907d977b993@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <0663FAF1-18F7-4BDE-8295-A2AF4A5C4F4B@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4802165106092998854==" --===============4802165106092998854== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Don't get your mind get old. It’s a choice. My mind is fine, it the eyes that are going. Screens are getting bigger and text is getting smaller. I must be dreaming that. --===============4802165106092998854==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Sun May 19 23:11:12 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 19:10:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5663033325582933829==" --===============5663033325582933829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My first emulator was for the Coleco ADAM back in the 1990’s. I bought the ADAM in 1984 and watched a community grow up around it in various locations across Canada and the US. The ADAM-con conventions began in 1989 in Orlando. Emulation began in the 1990’s as a response to the continued interest in keeping the 8-bit world going. Happy computing, Murray 🙂 On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 4:33 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-05-19 9:14 a.m., Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > > A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in > their thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a > Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I > think she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with > the party host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the > early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. > What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost > ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for their > recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely > nothing else that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a > sign that our living version of classical personal computing, in which many > of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in > the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging > folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to > anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation > following this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M > s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is > there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of > personal computers? Thoughts? > > > > Regards, > > Tarek Hoteit > > > Well with the internet I have been finding a lot more about behind the > history of the 1970's. > The West Coast made the chips, and the East coast made the computers, > while here in Canada,We just got to watch computers on TV with the > blinking lights back then and the few chip sold by Radio Shack. > > Back then you could get to build a computer of some kind, on the kitchen > table, as the knowledge was available, and parts Thu the hole. People > are going retro simply because modern computers are too complex with > documentation known to a few. > The Z80 may be long gone, but I am sure lots of 8080's are sill > for sale on ebay. > > I wanted to build a computer in my teens, and now I have time and the > money. Looking back in time I see how bad the tech was back the for the > average Joe. BASIC to rot your brain. 4K ram so you never learned how > to comment stuff. Word lengths 4,8,16 so you spent all your time shoe > horning a stuff to fit. Parts costing a arm and a leg, and three weeks > for delivery. > (Today parts from China 95 cents, 2 months delivery and arm and leg for > shipping). > > My latest design on paper, requires 74LSXX,74H74,CY7C122 (25ns 256x4 > ram),13 mhz osc, and lots of cmos 22V10's.A 18 bit serial cpu, > with a memory cycle time of 2.25 uS. I am still working on my > personal computer. > Who knows,It might even work, but first the EMULATOR > and cross assembler. > Ben. > > > > > > > > > > --===============5663033325582933829==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sun May 19 23:39:21 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 19:39:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3f3a370e-2ece-4777-b25f-9907d977b993@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3824327777507204106==" --===============3824327777507204106== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I hear you there! I started out as a junior FE on the Univac 418 in 1971. Back then the console was a modified TeleType and no problem seeing the characters as the wove across the page at 10 cps! Over my career, starting with 80x24 video terminals (VT05, VT52, VT100 and clones) I was excited as the video went MDA, CGA. VGA, XGA and all the rest as  resolutions increased. Lately however I am decreasing the resolution so I can see the characters! On the matter of the interest of the younger generation, I had 25 years of teaching at the end of my career as a point of observation. I frequently went into stories to explain how things that I taught matter : To a question about why we need to learn about cycle times of machine instructions, I recounted a story about a time i was called in to find out why both 6800 processors that were monitoring SWR levels of multiple 25kW BDCST FM TXs were showing 'Computer Failure' after a lightning strike on the CN Tower in Toronto.  I looked at the source code, calculated the cycle times, and worked out that the program was executing exactly as planned - IIRC 13.5 ms for the loop.  I put my scope on the watchdog reset signal and saw exactly that time!  (The problem was that the designer  was driving relays directly from TTL and the system had never been powered down). Adding a transistor driver solved the problem and stressed to the students the importance of carrying knowledge of instruction times and basic electronics in their toolbags! From the above interaction, I got comments on my end-of-term faculty feedback form ranging from 'he brings the theory to life' to 'he keeps on going off into stories from the past that no longer matter'! In one consulting contract i did, a young graduate was showing his disdain for the past when another consultant pointed out that I had already forgotten more than he will ever know about computer engineering! Sometimes you can't teach them, I hope the remainder are able to carry the torch! As I get older (71 this year) I wonder if there are really enough people in the world who care! cheers, Nigel Johnson (Previously popularly known as Bill Johnson, MD of Emulex Canada 1984-1987) On 2024-05-19 16:31, ben via cctalk wrote: > > >> Don't get your mind get old. It’s a choice. > > My mind is fine, it the eyes that are going. > Screens are getting bigger and text is getting smaller. > I must be dreaming that. > > > -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============3824327777507204106==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon May 20 02:32:05 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 22:31:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2562797673074003433==" --===============2562797673074003433== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On the matter of the interest of the younger generation, I had 25 years > of teaching at the end of my career as a point of observation. I > frequently went into stories to explain how things that I taught matter > > > As I get older (71 this year) I wonder if there are really enough people > in the world who care! > > cheers, > Nigel Johnson > (Previously popularly known as Bill Johnson, MD of Emulex Canada 1984-1987) > > > Having run a computer museum for 5 years, I can tell you there will always be young people who care about old tech, and who seek out knowledge. I have had many elementary school kids show up who know quite obscure details of systems sold decades before they were born. For the average visitor however I learned really quick that you have to start off with something that the person can connect with easily, before you get right into deep ancient lore. At some point computers as we know them (whatever your age) will be forgotten. The first-person experiences and problem solving, the real-world use. Like the archeologist who learns how to make ancient human stone points for research purposes, but who has no actual reason to actually hunt and prepare a meal with them. The context will be lost. Even mundane things like printing, connecting with a modem, saving files to external media.....fading away. Bill --===============2562797673074003433==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon May 20 08:53:20 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTSC TV demodulator Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 09:50:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1691207605.660953.1716119990965@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4053618345773200087==" --===============4053618345773200087== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 1:08=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know of a small TV tuner that tunes old analog TV channels (US = NTSC) and outputs composite or VGA or HDMI signals? I've looked around a bit = but haven't found anything. It's relatively easy to build one, but I would pr= efer a pre-built solution. And I'm sure others have run into this same probl= em. Not for NTSC video, but for the UK UHF analogue TV... About 30 years ago we had a hobbyist electronics shop chain called Maplin, who produced and sold their own range of kits, many of them very good. When NICAM stereo TV sound was introduced in the UK, they produced a kit to decode the NICAM signal to audio. In fact it was a total of 3 kits -- the NICAM decoder board, a TV tuner/IF strip to feed it (if you didn't want to try to tap off the NICAM subcarrier from your existing TV 's tuner), and the case/connectors/tuner channel memory/etc.. I built the entire system for my parents who had a VCR [1] that could record stereo sound from line-level inputs but which pre-dated NICAM. I then realised that the tuner/IF board on its own, with a multi-turn pot added for tuning (rather than the remote control/memory control IC used in the full unit) would be ideal for turning the RF output of UK home computers into composite video. So I built a second tuner board for that. Still have it, still use it. -tony --===============4053618345773200087==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon May 20 08:58:58 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 09:56:03 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6EAC19CE-21BF-4102-9895-B8271B21716F@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0581958281547438364==" --===============0581958281547438364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 4:56=E2=80=AFPM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > > Thank you, Josh. How did your passion start with classical computers? Maybe= this helps in understanding the generation? I know how I got started, but not really why. Although I can explain how it progressed. It was May 1986, I was at a sale of old electronics hoping to get a keyboard for my homebrew computer (this was before cheap PC keyboards in the UK). I saw a Philips P850 minicomputer being sold essentially for the scrap metal price. It had the user and service manuals with it, and it had a lights-and-switches front panel which I'd read about and never used. I bought it and somehow got it back to my student room. That evening I realised that there was a period of about 25 years of computing which was going to be lost and forgotten if nobody did something about it. So I did something and started collecting and restoring all the old computers I could find. It was a lot easier to find minicomputers and the like back then than it is now. But why did I buy that initial P850? I am not sure. I've always been interested in the history of electronics and computers, so perhaps that was it. -tony --===============0581958281547438364==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Mon May 20 10:13:20 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTSC TV demodulator Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 11:13:00 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5480740613139090082==" --===============5480740613139090082== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At one time I had a few Bt848 based PCI TV tuner cards for a PC - Hauppage was a big player but there were others. Some were composite video in, some also had a TV tuner section. I tried one as a video converter for PAL composite out from some home micro - possibly a Jupiter Ace. It wasn't that great, to be honest and doubtless the RF input is even worse but you don't really expect a great deal from an RF output in terms of video quality. If you can find one (most have been replaced by DVB-T cards : do they also accept analogue TV signals ?) they should be almost free. On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 10:03 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 1:08 PM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a small TV tuner that tunes old analog TV channels > (US NTSC) and outputs composite or VGA or HDMI signals? I've looked around > a bit but haven't found anything. It's relatively easy to build one, but I > would prefer a pre-built solution. And I'm sure others have run into this > same problem. > > Not for NTSC video, but for the UK UHF analogue TV... > > About 30 years ago we had a hobbyist electronics shop chain called > Maplin, who produced and sold their own range of kits, many of them > very good. When NICAM stereo TV sound was introduced in the UK, they > produced a kit to decode the NICAM signal to audio. In fact it was a > total of 3 kits -- the NICAM decoder board, a TV tuner/IF strip to > feed it (if you didn't want to try to tap off the NICAM subcarrier > from your existing TV 's tuner), and the case/connectors/tuner channel > memory/etc.. > > I built the entire system for my parents who had a VCR [1] that could > record stereo sound from line-level inputs but which pre-dated NICAM. > > I then realised that the tuner/IF board on its own, with a multi-turn > pot added for tuning (rather than the remote control/memory control IC > used in the full unit) would be ideal for turning the RF output of UK > home computers into composite video. So I built a second tuner board > for that. Still have it, still use it. > > -tony > --===============5480740613139090082==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Mon May 20 10:22:53 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NTSC TV demodulator Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 11:22:37 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3712209017163665617==" --===============3712209017163665617== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've also had TVs with modular RF inputs. One was a huge plasma wall TV and the other a tiny cheap caravan TV but both had locations for an RF input card which I assumed could be replaced by cards to suit local national TV standards. These have no visible controls and, like the PC TV cards, probably have an I2C tuner module. The linux TV application xawtv has code for controlling these. A similar device was used with BBC and Archimedes computers to receive the UK teletext service - it tuned to the TV services and extracted data that was broadcast in the vertical blanking interval. On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 11:13=E2=80=AFAM Adrian Godwin wrote: > At one time I had a few Bt848 based PCI TV tuner cards for a PC - Hauppage > was a big player but there were others. Some were composite video in, some > also had a TV tuner section. > > I tried one as a video converter for PAL composite out from some home > micro - possibly a Jupiter Ace. It wasn't that great, to be honest and > doubtless the RF input is even worse but you don't really expect a great > deal from an RF output in terms of video quality. If you can find one (most > have been replaced by DVB-T cards : do they also accept analogue TV signals > ?) they should be almost free. > > > > On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 10:03=E2=80=AFAM Tony Duell via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 1:08=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> > Does anyone know of a small TV tuner that tunes old analog TV channels >> (US NTSC) and outputs composite or VGA or HDMI signals? I've looked around >> a bit but haven't found anything. It's relatively easy to build one, but I >> would prefer a pre-built solution. And I'm sure others have run into this >> same problem. >> >> Not for NTSC video, but for the UK UHF analogue TV... >> >> About 30 years ago we had a hobbyist electronics shop chain called >> Maplin, who produced and sold their own range of kits, many of them >> very good. When NICAM stereo TV sound was introduced in the UK, they >> produced a kit to decode the NICAM signal to audio. In fact it was a >> total of 3 kits -- the NICAM decoder board, a TV tuner/IF strip to >> feed it (if you didn't want to try to tap off the NICAM subcarrier >> from your existing TV 's tuner), and the case/connectors/tuner channel >> memory/etc.. >> >> I built the entire system for my parents who had a VCR [1] that could >> record stereo sound from line-level inputs but which pre-dated NICAM. >> >> I then realised that the tuner/IF board on its own, with a multi-turn >> pot added for tuning (rather than the remote control/memory control IC >> used in the full unit) would be ideal for turning the RF output of UK >> home computers into composite video. So I built a second tuner board >> for that. Still have it, still use it. >> >> -tony >> > --===============3712209017163665617==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Mon May 20 10:45:39 2024 From: Nico de Jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 12:08:02 +0200 Message-ID: <98062849-1246-4420-8e28-e3484598eabd@farumdata.dk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0234333898182581881==" --===============0234333898182581881== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Den 2024-05-20 kl. 10:56 skrev Tony Duell via cctalk: > On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 4:56=E2=80=AFPM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk > wrote: >> Thank you, Josh. How did your passion start with classical computers? Mayb= e this helps in understanding the generation? > I know how I got started, but not really why. Although I can explain > how it progressed. > > It was May 1986, I was at a sale of old electronics hoping to get a > keyboard for my homebrew computer (this was before cheap PC keyboards > in the UK). I saw a Philips P850 minicomputer being sold essentially > for the scrap metal price. It had the user and service manuals with > it, and it had a lights-and-switches front panel which I'd read about > and never used. I bought it and somehow got it back to my student > room. > > That evening I realised that there was a period of about 25 years of > computing which was going to be lost and forgotten if nobody did > something about it. So I did something and started collecting and > restoring all the old computers I could find. It was a lot easier to > find minicomputers and the like back then than it is now. > > But why did I buy that initial P850? I am not sure. I've always been > interested in the history of electronics and computers, so perhaps > that was it. > > -tony I used to work on the P6000 series, and they had a very interesting=20 architecture. For those who want to know a bit more about Philips'=20 history, I can recommend an e-book written by one of the guys in Sweden,=20 where the P6000 series was developped. The P6000 was based on the P800,=20 but extended into a system appropiate for bookings, airline=20 reservations, banking etc. (Link below). The author is Mats Danielson. By the way, the James Bond film "For your=20 eyes only" shows a lot of Philips hardware. The "atomic comb" is a PTS=20 6272 keyboard with (I think) a display boltet to the back of it.=20 Hilarious, just like the book. /Nico --------------------------- Read my new history book (free e-book) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/377777427_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Phili= ps_Data_Systems /Nico --===============0234333898182581881==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon May 20 13:27:04 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 09:26:33 -0400 Message-ID: <65F51D07-23C1-4B2F-A62F-7707E7E0076A@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <98062849-1246-4420-8e28-e3484598eabd@farumdata.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0048381713342566662==" --===============0048381713342566662== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 20, 2024, at 6:08 AM, Nico de Jong via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > I used to work on the P6000 series, and they had a very interesting archite= cture. For those who want to know a bit more about Philips' history, I can re= commend an e-book written by one of the guys in Sweden, where the P6000 serie= s was developped. The P6000 was based on the P800, but extended into a system= appropiate for bookings, airline reservations, banking etc. >=20 > (Link below). >=20 > The author is Mats Danielson. By the way, the James Bond film "For your eye= s only" shows a lot of Philips hardware. The "atomic comb" is a PTS 6272 keyb= oard with (I think) a display boltet to the back of it. Hilarious, just like = the book. >=20 > /Nico >=20 > --------------------------- > Read my new history book (free e-book) >=20 > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/377777427_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Phi= lips_Data_Systems Nice! I just flipped through it briefly, and spotted what was the Electrologica hea= dquarters (page 143). And a few pages later there is a bit of history that e= xplains the French origin of the PR8000 (or P8000), which was where I learned= assembly language programming. Quite a neat machine but very little documen= tation of it still exists. paul --===============0048381713342566662==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Mon May 20 13:34:09 2024 From: Nico de Jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 15:33:58 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <65F51D07-23C1-4B2F-A62F-7707E7E0076A@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9213384095906194798==" --===============9213384095906194798== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Den 2024-05-20 kl. 15:26 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk: > >> On May 20, 2024, at 6:08 AM, Nico de Jong via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> I used to work on the P6000 series, and they had a very interesting archit= ecture. For those who want to know a bit more about Philips' history, I can r= ecommend an e-book written by one of the guys in Sweden, where the P6000 seri= es was developped. The P6000 was based on the P800, but extended into a syste= m appropiate for bookings, airline reservations, banking etc. >> >> (Link below). >> >> The author is Mats Danielson. By the way, the James Bond film "For your ey= es only" shows a lot of Philips hardware. The "atomic comb" is a PTS 6272 key= board with (I think) a display boltet to the back of it. Hilarious, just like= the book. >> >> /Nico >> >> --------------------------- >> Read my new history book (free e-book) >> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/377777427_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Ph= ilips_Data_Systems > Nice! > > I just flipped through it briefly, and spotted what was the Electrologica h= eadquarters (page 143). And a few pages later there is a bit of history that= explains the French origin of the PR8000 (or P8000), which was where I learn= ed assembly language programming. Quite a neat machine but very little docum= entation of it still exists. > > paul I have quite a lot of documentation for the P85x CPU's and other stuff.=20 Let me know what you need. /Nico --===============9213384095906194798==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon May 20 13:42:57 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 09:42:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3169732683784751823==" --===============3169732683784751823== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 20, 2024, at 9:33 AM, Nico de Jong via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Den 2024-05-20 kl. 15:26 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk: >>=20 >> ... >> I just flipped through it briefly, and spotted what was the Electrologica = headquarters (page 143). And a few pages later there is a bit of history tha= t explains the French origin of the PR8000 (or P8000), which was where I lear= ned assembly language programming. Quite a neat machine but very little docu= mentation of it still exists. >>=20 >> paul >=20 > I have quite a lot of documentation for the P85x CPU's and other stuff. Let= me know what you need. >=20 > /Nico The P85x are 16-bit machines, right? The PR8000 is 24 bits. The only docume= ntation I have seen is what I supplied to Bitsavers. paul --===============3169732683784751823==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Mon May 20 16:07:32 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 15:59:47 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3f3a370e-2ece-4777-b25f-9907d977b993@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1296191988855486265==" --===============1296191988855486265== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, May 19th, 2024 at 13:31, ben via cctalk = wrote: > My mind is fine, it the eyes that are going. > Screens are getting bigger and text is getting smaller. > I must be dreaming that. HiDPI flatpanel displays definitely don't help with this. :/ The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============1296191988855486265==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Mon May 20 16:13:46 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 11:13:38 -0500 Message-ID: <606069227.872447.1716221618125@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7787077295854325327==" --===============7787077295854325327== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This may have been covered before, VERY early in this tread. I think I tried a game on a flatscreen, and had issues. I don't know if it a= pplies to the radio shack Color Computer, the interest of the original poster. many games and entry pcs with old style tv analog format, don't interlace, an= d tube TVs nearly all (except maybe a few late model high end ones?) are fine= with that, but I seem to recall that most or all digital/flat screen can't = deal with non-interlace. 
--Carey
--===============7787077295854325327==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon May 20 16:35:39 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 12:35:32 -0400 Message-ID: <4FCFAB19-F882-403A-8761-FE20C474BCDD@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <606069227.872447.1716221618125@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5024286158482867421==" --===============5024286158482867421== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think you have that backwards. TVs use interlace. Older PC displays may do so, or not; typically the 480 li= ne format was not interlaced but there might be high resolution modes that we= re. The reason was to deal with bandwidth limitations. Flat panel displays normally support a pile of input formats, though only the= "native" format (the actual line count matching the display hardware) is dir= ectly handled, all the others involve reformatting to the native format. Tha= t reformatting generally results in some loss of display quality, how much de= pends on how well the relevant hardware is designed. And interlaced formats = are often supported not just for the VGA input (if there is one) but also for= DVI/HDMI inputs. To get the accurate answer you have to check the specifica= tion sheet. paul > On May 20, 2024, at 12:13 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > This may have been covered before, VERY early in this tread. >=20 > I think I tried a game on a flatscreen, and had issues. I don't know if it= applies to the radio shack Color Computer, the interest of the original post= er. >=20 > many games and entry pcs with old style tv analog format, don't interlace, = and tube TVs nearly all (except maybe a few late model high end ones?) are fi= ne with that, but I seem to recall that most or all digital/flat screen can'= t deal with non-interlace. >=20 > 
--Carey
--===============5024286158482867421==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon May 20 16:46:55 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 16:46:41 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4FCFAB19-F882-403A-8761-FE20C474BCDD@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3487776381416990365==" --===============3487776381416990365== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IIRC, didn=E2=80=99t most older pc monitors have a setup mode where one of th= e options was interlace or non-interlace. Sent from my iPhone > On May 20, 2024, at 09:35, Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI think you have that backwards. >=20 > TVs use interlace. Older PC displays may do so, or not; typically the 480 = line format was not interlaced but there might be high resolution modes that = were. The reason was to deal with bandwidth limitations. >=20 > Flat panel displays normally support a pile of input formats, though only t= he "native" format (the actual line count matching the display hardware) is d= irectly handled, all the others involve reformatting to the native format. T= hat reformatting generally results in some loss of display quality, how much = depends on how well the relevant hardware is designed. And interlaced format= s are often supported not just for the VGA input (if there is one) but also f= or DVI/HDMI inputs. To get the accurate answer you have to check the specifi= cation sheet. >=20 > paul >=20 >> On May 20, 2024, at 12:13 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> This may have been covered before, VERY early in this tread. >>=20 >> I think I tried a game on a flatscreen, and had issues. I don't know if i= t applies to the radio shack Color Computer, the interest of the original pos= ter. >>=20 >> many games and entry pcs with old style tv analog format, don't interlace,= and tube TVs nearly all (except maybe a few late model high end ones?) are f= ine with that, but I seem to recall that most or all digital/flat screen can= 't deal with non-interlace. >>=20 >> 
--Carey
>=20 --===============3487776381416990365==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Mon May 20 17:06:21 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 12:06:13 -0500 Message-ID: <273751072.875121.1716224773736@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181AC6CA22F1801558A88A3E4E92=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5808840656641047340==" --===============5808840656641047340== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wayne, you must be one of those thirty-something techies from another thread. for those of us in our 60s and 70s,.... setup mode? huh? old TVs and monitors were purely analog. No on-screen dis= plays and non-volatile memory bytes for setup. adjustments for size and posi= tion were rheostats. interlace (on TVs) was because the incoming sigonal sta= rted SLIGHTLY later for the interlaced frame and the horizontal sync was slig= htly different (advanced?) on the incoming signal relative to the vertical sy= nc. =20 With digital, the conversion of the analog input to digital for the display h= as to start recording only half the first line. and whatever conversion the= re is because on the analog display, the scan line is at a slight angle, lowe= r on the right, so the interlaced frame starts at the same vertical height, i= n the middle, as the other frame started on the left side. so, just curious. how do digital TVs (and monitors) work? I presume the dot= s are a rectangle, not sloping down to the right, no half a line at the top a= nd bottom. Do they just assume the brain can't tell that (for the converted = old analog tv signal) the image therefor slopes UP very slightly to the right= from what it "should" be? and the top line is blank on the left side because= that is the interlace frame? 
--Carey
> On 05/20/2024 11:46 AM CDT Wayne S via cctalk wro= te: >=20 > =20 > IIRC, didn=E2=80=99t most older pc monitors have a setup mode where one of = the options was interlace or non-interlace. >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > > On May 20, 2024, at 09:35, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > > =EF=BB=BFI think you have that backwards. > >=20 > > TVs use interlace. Older PC displays may do so, or not; typically the 48= 0 line format was not interlaced but there might be high resolution modes tha= t were. The reason was to deal with bandwidth limitations. > >=20 > > Flat panel displays normally support a pile of input formats, though only= the "native" format (the actual line count matching the display hardware) is= directly handled, all the others involve reformatting to the native format. = That reformatting generally results in some loss of display quality, how muc= h depends on how well the relevant hardware is designed. And interlaced form= ats are often supported not just for the VGA input (if there is one) but also= for DVI/HDMI inputs. To get the accurate answer you have to check the speci= fication sheet. > >=20 > > paul > >=20 > >> On May 20, 2024, at 12:13 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > >>=20 > >> This may have been covered before, VERY early in this tread. > >>=20 > >> I think I tried a game on a flatscreen, and had issues. I don't know if= it applies to the radio shack Color Computer, the interest of the original p= oster. > >>=20 > >> many games and entry pcs with old style tv analog format, don't interlac= e, and tube TVs nearly all (except maybe a few late model high end ones?) are= fine with that, but I seem to recall that most or all digital/flat screen c= an't deal with non-interlace. > >>=20 > >> 
--Carey
> > --===============5808840656641047340==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Mon May 20 17:11:44 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 13:11:28 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1641597630845498204==" --===============1641597630845498204== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I see computer history slowly growing. Before you had only one museum in the United States and now you have multiple ones such as but not limited to: American Computer Museum Computer History Museum Computer Museum of America Large Scale Systems Museum Rhode Island Computer Museum System Source Computer Museum 10 years ago I didn't see any computing history taught in a university. Now I see it being taught at NJIT. https://news.njit.edu/new-computer-science-elective-examines-history-computing There are people whose hard work is keeping computer history alive. --===============1641597630845498204==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Mon May 20 17:12:30 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 13:12:13 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8919258094621793876==" --===============8919258094621793876== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry I forgot to add Kennet Classic. I failed, my mistake. On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 1:11=E2=80=AFPM Christian Liendo wrote: > > I see computer history slowly growing. Before you had only one museum > in the United States and now you have multiple ones such as but not > limited to: > > American Computer Museum > Computer History Museum > Computer Museum of America > Large Scale Systems Museum > Rhode Island Computer Museum > System Source Computer Museum > > 10 years ago I didn't see any computing history taught in a > university. Now I see it being taught at NJIT. > > https://news.njit.edu/new-computer-science-elective-examines-history-comput= ing > > There are people whose hard work is keeping computer history alive. --===============8919258094621793876==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon May 20 17:25:23 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 13:25:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3014113643985752526==" --===============3014113643985752526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lol! I don't care, our little non profit is but a wee dot on the map compared with the well-funded giants. On Mon, May 20, 2024, 1:12 PM Christian Liendo via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sorry I forgot to add Kennet Classic. I failed, my mistake. > > On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 1:11=E2=80=AFPM Christian Liendo > wrote: > > > > I see computer history slowly growing. Before you had only one museum > > in the United States and now you have multiple ones such as but not > > limited to: > > > > American Computer Museum > > Computer History Museum > > Computer Museum of America > > Large Scale Systems Museum > > Rhode Island Computer Museum > > System Source Computer Museum > > > > 10 years ago I didn't see any computing history taught in a > > university. Now I see it being taught at NJIT. > > > > > https://news.njit.edu/new-computer-science-elective-examines-history-comput= ing > > > > There are people whose hard work is keeping computer history alive. > --===============3014113643985752526==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon May 20 17:37:43 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 17:37:36 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <273751072.875121.1716224773736@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7570391598946346605==" --===============7570391598946346605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Young , hah. No i=E2=80=99m old 70. The pc monitors, not Tv, always had a setup menu. Even the Vt100 series let y= ou choose interlace if you needed.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On May 20, 2024, at 10:06, CAREY SCHUG wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFWayne, you must be one of those thirty-something techies from anot= her thread. >=20 > for those of us in our 60s and 70s,.... >=20 > setup mode? huh? old TVs and monitors were purely analog. No on-screen d= isplays and non-volatile memory bytes for setup. adjustments for size and po= sition were rheostats. interlace (on TVs) was because the incoming sigonal s= tarted SLIGHTLY later for the interlaced frame and the horizontal sync was sl= ightly different (advanced?) on the incoming signal relative to the vertical = sync. =20 >=20 > With digital, the conversion of the analog input to digital for the display= has to start recording only half the first line. and whatever conversion t= here is because on the analog display, the scan line is at a slight angle, lo= wer on the right, so the interlaced frame starts at the same vertical height,= in the middle, as the other frame started on the left side. >=20 > so, just curious. how do digital TVs (and monitors) work? I presume the d= ots are a rectangle, not sloping down to the right, no half a line at the top= and bottom. Do they just assume the brain can't tell that (for the converte= d old analog tv signal) the image therefor slopes UP very slightly to the rig= ht from what it "should" be? and the top line is blank on the left side becau= se that is the interlace frame? >=20 > 
--Carey
>=20 >> On 05/20/2024 11:46 AM CDT Wayne S via cctalk wr= ote: >>=20 >>=20 >> IIRC, didn=E2=80=99t most older pc monitors have a setup mode where one of= the options was interlace or non-interlace. >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>>> On May 20, 2024, at 09:35, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFI think you have that backwards. >>>=20 >>> TVs use interlace. Older PC displays may do so, or not; typically the 48= 0 line format was not interlaced but there might be high resolution modes tha= t were. The reason was to deal with bandwidth limitations. >>>=20 >>> Flat panel displays normally support a pile of input formats, though only= the "native" format (the actual line count matching the display hardware) is= directly handled, all the others involve reformatting to the native format. = That reformatting generally results in some loss of display quality, how muc= h depends on how well the relevant hardware is designed. And interlaced form= ats are often supported not just for the VGA input (if there is one) but also= for DVI/HDMI inputs. To get the accurate answer you have to check the speci= fication sheet. >>>=20 >>> paul >>>=20 >>>> On May 20, 2024, at 12:13 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> This may have been covered before, VERY early in this tread. >>>>=20 >>>> I think I tried a game on a flatscreen, and had issues. I don't know if= it applies to the radio shack Color Computer, the interest of the original p= oster. >>>>=20 >>>> many games and entry pcs with old style tv analog format, don't interlac= e, and tube TVs nearly all (except maybe a few late model high end ones?) are= fine with that, but I seem to recall that most or all digital/flat screen c= an't deal with non-interlace. >>>>=20 >>>> 
--Carey
>>>=20 --===============7570391598946346605==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon May 20 17:41:55 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 10:41:35 -0700 Message-ID: <6003343b-4989-4a71-9d74-995ed746d0ee@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1776393076410895498==" --===============1776393076410895498== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/20/24 10:25, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> American Computer Museum >>> Computer History Museum >>> Computer Museum of America >>> Large Scale Systems Museum >>> Rhode Island Computer Museum >>> System Source Computer Museum Of course, there's the Living Computer Museum--oh, wait.... -Chuck --===============1776393076410895498==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Mon May 20 17:42:50 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 13:42:35 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4293730006928737909==" --===============4293730006928737909== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kennet Classic is still important in getting history out to the public. On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 1:25=E2=80=AFPM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Lol! I don't care, our little non profit is but a wee dot on the map > compared with the well-funded giants. > > On Mon, May 20, 2024, 1:12 PM Christian Liendo via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Sorry I forgot to add Kennet Classic. I failed, my mistake. > > > > On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 1:11=E2=80=AFPM Christian Liendo > > wrote: > > > > > > I see computer history slowly growing. Before you had only one museum > > > in the United States and now you have multiple ones such as but not > > > limited to: > > > > > > American Computer Museum > > > Computer History Museum > > > Computer Museum of America > > > Large Scale Systems Museum > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum > > > System Source Computer Museum > > > > > > 10 years ago I didn't see any computing history taught in a > > > university. Now I see it being taught at NJIT. > > > > > > > > https://news.njit.edu/new-computer-science-elective-examines-history-comp= uting > > > > > > There are people whose hard work is keeping computer history alive. > > --===============4293730006928737909==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Mon May 20 17:46:26 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 19:46:17 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <606069227.872447.1716221618125@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8642430267338814368==" --===============8642430267338814368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 11:13:38AM -0500, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: [...] > many games and entry pcs with old style tv analog format, don't interlace, > and tube TVs nearly all (except maybe a few late model high end ones?) are > fine with that, but I seem to recall that most or all digital/flat screen > can't deal with non-interlace. Flat panels sold as PC monitors tend to support a smaller range of video timings than those sold as televisions. Any television which can't handle non-interlaced 15kHz video should be returned to the shop as defective. What you may however find is that while all TVs should support 15kHz video, they sometimes artificially restrict the range of supported modes on a per-input basis, purportedly for compatibility or ease-of-use or similar marketing claptrap. Further, some models will offer a different feature set based on the *name* you assigned to that input via the TV's menus. So you may well find that your TV starts playing nicely with your 1980s micros if you lie to it and claim that you've really connected a VHS machine. --===============8642430267338814368==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon May 20 17:51:39 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 13:51:30 -0400 Message-ID: <147EF66A-A843-4396-9E9B-08DDC5E39B9C@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21813D55BFB16DE55A53E69DE4E92=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7634690024508912580==" --===============7634690024508912580== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 20, 2024, at 1:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > Young , hah. No i=E2=80=99m old 70. > The pc monitors, not Tv, always had a setup menu. Even the Vt100 series let= you choose interlace if you needed.=20 VT100? I don't think so. And yes, it has a setup menu, but that's setup of = the terminal functionality, not the monitor part. The earliest monitors could only handle one format. A major innovation was "= multisync" where the monitor would determine the horizontal and vertical swee= p rate and line count, and display things the right way. The first PC I owne= d had one of those, and as far as I can remember it had nothing that one woul= d call a "setup menu". The reason interlace matters is not the very slight slope of the scan line in= analog monitors, but rather the fact that alternate frames are offset by hal= f the line spacing of the basic frame, so each frame sweeps out the gaps in b= etween the lines scanned by the preceding frame. It matters to get that righ= t, otherwise you're not correctly displaying consecutive rows of pixels. In = particular, when doing scan conversion (from analog format to a digital X/Y p= ixel raster) you have to offset Y by one every other frame if interlace is us= ed, but not if it isn't. paul --===============7634690024508912580==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon May 20 18:03:05 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 18:02:57 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <147EF66A-A843-4396-9E9B-08DDC5E39B9C@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1448935768491651589==" --===============1448935768491651589== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the vt100, setup menu =E2=80=9CB=E2=80=9D had an interlace on or off setti= ng. I just looked it up. Sent from my iPhone > On May 20, 2024, at 10:51, Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On May 20, 2024, at 1:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk = wrote: >>=20 >> Young , hah. No i=E2=80=99m old 70. >> The pc monitors, not Tv, always had a setup menu. Even the Vt100 series le= t you choose interlace if you needed.=20 >=20 > VT100? I don't think so. And yes, it has a setup menu, but that's setup o= f the terminal functionality, not the monitor part. >=20 > The earliest monitors could only handle one format. A major innovation was= "multisync" where the monitor would determine the horizontal and vertical sw= eep rate and line count, and display things the right way. The first PC I ow= ned had one of those, and as far as I can remember it had nothing that one wo= uld call a "setup menu". >=20 > The reason interlace matters is not the very slight slope of the scan line = in analog monitors, but rather the fact that alternate frames are offset by h= alf the line spacing of the basic frame, so each frame sweeps out the gaps in= between the lines scanned by the preceding frame. It matters to get that ri= ght, otherwise you're not correctly displaying consecutive rows of pixels. I= n particular, when doing scan conversion (from analog format to a digital X/Y= pixel raster) you have to offset Y by one every other frame if interlace is = used, but not if it isn't. >=20 > paul >=20 >=20 --===============1448935768491651589==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon May 20 18:06:49 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 18:06:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21816928E34026E5C8B3D8B3E4E92=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5447401586671431567==" --===============5447401586671431567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The setup on the earlier monitors was sometimes call =E2=80=9CODB=E2=80=9D , = don=E2=80=98t know why. Was equivalent to setup.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On May 20, 2024, at 11:02, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFIn the vt100, setup menu =E2=80=9CB=E2=80=9D had an interlace on o= r off setting. > I just looked it up. >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On May 20, 2024, at 10:51, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>>> On May 20, 2024, at 1:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> Young , hah. No i=E2=80=99m old 70. >>> The pc monitors, not Tv, always had a setup menu. Even the Vt100 series l= et you choose interlace if you needed.=20 >>=20 >> VT100? I don't think so. And yes, it has a setup menu, but that's setup = of the terminal functionality, not the monitor part. >>=20 >> The earliest monitors could only handle one format. A major innovation wa= s "multisync" where the monitor would determine the horizontal and vertical s= weep rate and line count, and display things the right way. The first PC I o= wned had one of those, and as far as I can remember it had nothing that one w= ould call a "setup menu". >>=20 >> The reason interlace matters is not the very slight slope of the scan line= in analog monitors, but rather the fact that alternate frames are offset by = half the line spacing of the basic frame, so each frame sweeps out the gaps i= n between the lines scanned by the preceding frame. It matters to get that r= ight, otherwise you're not correctly displaying consecutive rows of pixels. = In particular, when doing scan conversion (from analog format to a digital X/= Y pixel raster) you have to offset Y by one every other frame if interlace is= used, but not if it isn't. >>=20 >> paul >>=20 >>=20 --===============5447401586671431567==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Mon May 20 18:16:26 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 13:16:21 -0500 Message-ID: <860787503.775686.1716228981672@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21816928E34026E5C8B3D8B3E4E92=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6020560446530965796==" --===============6020560446530965796== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 05/20/2024 1:02 PM CDT Wayne S via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 >=20 > In the vt100, setup menu =E2=80=9CB=E2=80=9D had an interlace on or off set= ting. > I just looked it up. >=20 >=20 That is almost certainly setting what type of signal is generated. Like a TV= of the same era, the monitor (display) portion doesn't care; it just displa= ys what it is sent. That is very different from a monitor setting that sets = either interlaced or non-interlaced. Some reasons why you might prefer one over the other on the same screen: non= -interlaced would have a horizontal gap between displayed lines whereas inter= laced would fill them in. However, interlaced is more prone to flickering, w= hich can be very tiring to the eyes and cause headaches. Will --===============6020560446530965796==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 20 18:21:50 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 12:21:38 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <860787503.775686.1716228981672@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3667529676997828456==" --===============3667529676997828456== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-05-20 12:16 p.m., Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 05/20/2024 1:02 PM CDT Wayne S via cctalk wro= te: >> >> >> In the vt100, setup menu =E2=80=9CB=E2=80=9D had an interlace on or off se= tting. >> I just looked it up. >> >> > That is almost certainly setting what type of signal is generated. Like a = TV of the same era, the monitor (display) portion doesn't care; it just disp= lays what it is sent. That is very different from a monitor setting that set= s either interlaced or non-interlaced. >=20 > Some reasons why you might prefer one over the other on the same screen: n= on-interlaced would have a horizontal gap between displayed lines whereas int= erlaced would fill them in. However, interlaced is more prone to flickering,= which can be very tiring to the eyes and cause headaches. >=20 > Will And you have Color VS B&W. --===============3667529676997828456==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon May 20 18:23:42 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 11:23:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181052732B0C98048E7EB06E4E92=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4959987711403826682==" --===============4959987711403826682== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is it perhaps OBD--On-Board Diagnostics? Sellam On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 11:06=E2=80=AFAM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > The setup on the earlier monitors was sometimes call =E2=80=9CODB=E2=80=9D = , don=E2=80=98t know > why. Was equivalent to setup. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2024, at 11:02, Wayne S wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFIn the vt100, setup menu =E2=80=9CB=E2=80=9D had an interlace on= or off setting. > > I just looked it up. > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On May 20, 2024, at 10:51, Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> =EF=BB=BF > >> > >>>> On May 20, 2024, at 1:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Young , hah. No i=E2=80=99m old 70. > >>> The pc monitors, not Tv, always had a setup menu. Even the Vt100 > series let you choose interlace if you needed. > >> > >> VT100? I don't think so. And yes, it has a setup menu, but that's > setup of the terminal functionality, not the monitor part. > >> > >> The earliest monitors could only handle one format. A major innovation > was "multisync" where the monitor would determine the horizontal and > vertical sweep rate and line count, and display things the right way. The > first PC I owned had one of those, and as far as I can remember it had > nothing that one would call a "setup menu". > >> > >> The reason interlace matters is not the very slight slope of the scan > line in analog monitors, but rather the fact that alternate frames are > offset by half the line spacing of the basic frame, so each frame sweeps > out the gaps in between the lines scanned by the preceding frame. It > matters to get that right, otherwise you're not correctly displaying > consecutive rows of pixels. In particular, when doing scan conversion > (from analog format to a digital X/Y pixel raster) you have to offset Y by > one every other frame if interlace is used, but not if it isn't. > >> > >> paul > >> > >> > --===============4959987711403826682==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Mon May 20 18:26:52 2024 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 20:26:44 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <273751072.875121.1716224773736@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0363652884015757150==" --===============0363652884015757150== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 12:06:13PM -0500, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: [...] > so, just curious. how do digital TVs (and monitors) work? I presume the > dots are a rectangle, not sloping down to the right, no half a line at the > top and bottom. Do they just assume the brain can't tell that (for the > converted old analog tv signal) the image therefor slopes UP very slightly > to the right from what it "should" be? and the top line is blank on the > left side because that is the interlace frame? The half-lines are not visible on an analogue CRT (unless it's faulty or miscalibrated) because they're hidden behind the top and bottom of the screen bezel, assuming that they're even sent to the electron gun at all. A digital TV displaying an analogue signal will just crop the image to simulate the bezel, since there's a lot of other cruft and noise in the signal which is not actually picture data and would be quite distracting if you could actually see it. The slope in the scanlines is very gentle and pretty much not noticable unless you're looking for it, and maybe not even then. You may well look at it and say "yeah, that's on a slope", but is that due to the scanning process or because the deflection yoke is twisted slightly? There are so many adjustments on a CRT that affect each other that getting a picture at all is a minor miracle. I don't miss CRTs. --===============0363652884015757150==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Mon May 20 18:36:45 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 13:36:41 -0500 Message-ID: <361314608.779901.1716230201684@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <273751072.875121.1716224773736@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6043293520025809716==" --===============6043293520025809716== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 05/20/2024 12:06 PM CDT CAREY SCHUG via cctalk = wrote: > > > so, just curious. how do digital TVs (and monitors) work? I presume the dot= s are a rectangle, not sloping down to the right, no half a line at the top a= nd bottom. Do they just assume the brain can't tell that (for the converted o= ld analog tv signal) the image therefor slopes UP very slightly to the right = from what it "should" be? and the top line is blank on the left side because = that is the interlace frame? > > 
--Carey
> Well, the slope is VERY slight. Approximately 1/500 of the picture height.Pr= obably impossible to detect with the eye. In the old days when us older folk= s were young, the TV camera image was generated the same way, with a scanned = beam. So then the generated image matched the displayed image. But Around t= he end of the 70s when solid state image sensors started coming into use, the= generated image didn't match that displayed on the CRT. But nobody noticed.= Now, almost all pictures are generated by some type of solid state generato= r and the lines aren't angled, and neither are the displayed lines. So, agai= n, it matches. The NTSC signal defines 525 lines per "frame," each frame made of two "fields= " of 262 1/2 lines (I may have frame and field mixed up.) In one field, the= half line is at the top. It is at the bottom on the other. But out of thos= e 525 total lines, only around 480 (I forget exactly) are displayable. The n= on-displayed lines are split between the top and bottom. So the two half-lin= es aren't diplayable. Those non-displayed lines are used for all sorts of th= ings, including closed captioning. Old analog TVs and monitors make any changes for different types of signals; = they just (attempted to ) displayed whatever was thrown at them. Will --===============6043293520025809716==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Mon May 20 19:40:30 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 20:40:15 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <361314608.779901.1716230201684@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5074890852272498918==" --===============5074890852272498918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember the VT100 interlace setting. Yes, it changed the signal generated. I don't know if it also changed the characteristics of the monitor but I would think not. It gave slightly higher resolution (the expectation would be double but the tube didn't have focus that good) at the cost of a horrible juddering display. I don't remember it being there on the later VT220. On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 7:43=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 05/20/2024 12:06 PM CDT CAREY SCHUG via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > > so, just curious. how do digital TVs (and monitors) work? I presume the > dots are a rectangle, not sloping down to the right, no half a line at the > top and bottom. Do they just assume the brain can't tell that (for the > converted old analog tv signal) the image therefor slopes UP very slightly > to the right from what it "should" be? and the top line is blank on the > left side because that is the interlace frame? > > > > 
--Carey
> > > > Well, the slope is VERY slight. Approximately 1/500 of the picture > height.Probably impossible to detect with the eye. In the old days when us > older folks were young, the TV camera image was generated the same way, > with a scanned beam. So then the generated image matched the displayed > image. But Around the end of the 70s when solid state image sensors > started coming into use, the generated image didn't match that displayed on > the CRT. But nobody noticed. Now, almost all pictures are generated by > some type of solid state generator and the lines aren't angled, and neither > are the displayed lines. So, again, it matches. > > The NTSC signal defines 525 lines per "frame," each frame made of two > "fields" of 262 1/2 lines (I may have frame and field mixed up.) In one > field, the half line is at the top. It is at the bottom on the other. But > out of those 525 total lines, only around 480 (I forget exactly) are > displayable. The non-displayed lines are split between the top and > bottom. So the two half-lines aren't diplayable. Those non-displayed > lines are used for all sorts of things, including closed captioning. > > Old analog TVs and monitors make any changes for different types of > signals; they just (attempted to ) displayed whatever was thrown at them. > > Will > --===============5074890852272498918==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon May 20 19:49:26 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 15:49:19 -0400 Message-ID: <618C9295-F08C-46BC-90EC-F80E1BDED063@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7255497145173522245==" --===============7255497145173522245== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 20, 2024, at 3:40 PM, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I remember the VT100 interlace setting. Yes, it changed the signal > generated. I don't know if it also changed the characteristics of the > monitor but I would think not. The Pro also has such a thing in its video card. It doesn't touch the monito= r as far as I can tell. The details may in the video gate array spec (I have= that on paper, buried somewhere); my guess would be that it changes the vert= ical sync frequency from horizontal rate / 262 to horizontal rate / 262.5. > It gave slightly higher resolution (the expectation would be double but the > tube didn't have focus that good) at the cost of a horrible juddering > display. I don't remember it being there on the later VT220. Yes, that's just how I remember it on the Pro. The Pro has another display feature: you can set it to 625 lines at 25 Hz (or= half that at 50 Hz). The US monitor handles that, somewhat to my surprise, = but it's not a pleasant experience. paul --===============7255497145173522245==-- From kej@kyrafre.com Tue May 21 05:48:49 2024 From: Kevin Jordan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 13:39:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8163113110794195380==" --===============8163113110794195380== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Virtual museums as well, e.g.: http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 1:28=E2=80=AFPM Christian Liendo via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I see computer history slowly growing. Before you had only one museum > in the United States and now you have multiple ones such as but not > limited to: > > American Computer Museum > Computer History Museum > Computer Museum of America > Large Scale Systems Museum > Rhode Island Computer Museum > System Source Computer Museum > > 10 years ago I didn't see any computing history taught in a > university. Now I see it being taught at NJIT. > > > https://news.njit.edu/new-computer-science-elective-examines-history-comput= ing > > There are people whose hard work is keeping computer history alive. > --===============8163113110794195380==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Wed May 22 14:07:03 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 10:06:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8927590677778064762==" --===============8927590677778064762== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ars Technica https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/05/gordon-bell-an-architect-of-our-digit= al-age-dies-at-age-89/ New York Times Obit https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/21/technology/c-gordon-bell-dead.html?unlocke= d_article_code=3D1.t00.xAnm.sr2ZsjF5OSti&smid=3Durl-share --===============8927590677778064762==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed May 22 15:37:08 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 08:36:51 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7508852777731671401==" --===============7508852777731671401== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gordon Bell was a real delightful man, and most unassuming. He was always warm and friendly to everyone, and it was a pleasure and honor to have known him. Sellam On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 7:07=E2=80=AFAM Christian Liendo via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Ars Technica > > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/05/gordon-bell-an-architect-of-our-dig= ital-age-dies-at-age-89/ > > > New York Times Obit > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/21/technology/c-gordon-bell-dead.html?unloc= ked_article_code=3D1.t00.xAnm.sr2ZsjF5OSti&smid=3Durl-share > --===============7508852777731671401==-- From rickb@bensene.com Wed May 22 16:35:42 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 16:26:53 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6003343b-4989-4a71-9d74-995ed746d0ee@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2004072509817777520==" --===============2004072509817777520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/20/24 10:25, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> American Computer Museum >>> Computer History Museum >>> Computer Museum of America >>> Large Scale Systems Museum >>> Rhode Island Computer Museum >>> System Source Computer Museum Of course, there's the Living Computer Museum--oh, wait.... ...and wait...and wait...and.... $&#**^% Bean Counters! --===============2004072509817777520==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed May 22 17:19:36 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 13:19:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9185786783301796954==" --===============9185786783301796954== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's a slog, but if you can make it through Gordon Bell's book, "Computer Structures Readings and Examples" you realize Gordon is a "father of vintage computing", in addition to his involvement with the first computer museum in Boston. He knew better than anyone the historical significance of computing well before the term "vintage computer" existed. And there is that stuff he did at DEC.... Bill On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 12:14=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Gordon Bell was a real delightful man, and most unassuming. He was always > warm and friendly to everyone, and it was a pleasure and honor to have > known him. > > Sellam > > On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 7:07=E2=80=AFAM Christian Liendo via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Ars Technica > > > > > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/05/gordon-bell-an-architect-of-our-dig= ital-age-dies-at-age-89/ > > > > > > New York Times Obit > > > > > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/21/technology/c-gordon-bell-dead.html?unloc= ked_article_code=3D1.t00.xAnm.sr2ZsjF5OSti&smid=3Durl-share > > > --===============9185786783301796954==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Wed May 22 17:36:41 2024 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 08:10:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6230680793126650998==" --===============6230680793126650998== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Control-G In one of the comments I found this interesting tidbit: Working at DEC for many years, I learned a lot from Mr. Bell. One of my favo= rite sayings was he calling himself "the industry standard dummy." Which sim= ply meant that he approached all new products without pre-conceived notions o= f "how" it should work. He found so many bugs and interface errors that way,= and taught everyone to do the same. On old computer keyboards one used to b= e able to make a bell ring by typeing CTRL-G. That industry standard was set= for G. Bell. Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 22, 2024, at 7:07 AM, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFArs Technica > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/05/gordon-bell-an-architect-of-our-dig= ital-age-dies-at-age-89/ >=20 >=20 > New York Times Obit >=20 > https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/21/technology/c-gordon-bell-dead.html?unloc= ked_article_code=3D1.t00.xAnm.sr2ZsjF5OSti&smid=3Durl-share >=20 --===============6230680793126650998==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed May 22 18:32:28 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 11:32:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2654818212503733773==" --===============2654818212503733773== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 10:19 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > It's a slog, but if you can make it through Gordon Bell's book, "Computer > Structures Readings and Examples" you realize Gordon is a "father of > vintage computing", in addition to his involvement with the first computer > museum in Boston. He knew better than anyone the historical significance > of computing well before the term "vintage computer" existed. > > And there is that stuff he did at DEC.... > > Bill > He really is. Perhaps "Grandfather" is more appropriate. His and his wife Gwen's (god rest her soul as well) personal collecting and the museum at DEC was the basis for the Boston Computer Museum, which effectively went west and became the Computer History Museum. Sellam --===============2654818212503733773==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed May 22 18:40:21 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 14:40:12 -0400 Message-ID: <34F35BE7-051F-419C-9A64-7F2B319C1CBB@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4268761426717815119==" --===============4268761426717815119== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 22, 2024, at 11:10 AM, Don R via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > Control-G >=20 > In one of the comments I found this interesting tidbit: >=20 > Working at DEC for many years, I learned a lot from Mr. Bell. One of my fa= vorite sayings was he calling himself "the industry standard dummy." Which s= imply meant that he approached all new products without pre-conceived notions= of "how" it should work. He found so many bugs and interface errors that wa= y, and taught everyone to do the same. On old computer keyboards one used to= be able to make a bell ring by typeing CTRL-G. That industry standard was s= et for G. Bell. That's a nice story but it doesn't seem all that likely. A "bell" code long = predates ASCII where indeed it was Control-G; it showed up decades earlier in= the 5-bit Teletype machines "Baudot" (a.k.a., "Murray") code. paul --===============4268761426717815119==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed May 22 18:50:21 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 14:50:15 -0400 Message-ID: <2669FBCB-8C19-41FB-9B4D-640CDBF32C72@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2501490739895262465==" --===============2501490739895262465== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 22, 2024, at 1:19 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > It's a slog, but if you can make it through Gordon Bell's book, "Computer > Structures Readings and Examples" you realize Gordon is a "father of > vintage computing", in addition to his involvement with the first computer > museum in Boston. He knew better than anyone the historical significance > of computing well before the term "vintage computer" existed. I still have that book, though it's deep in some box. Fun trivia item: it's the only book I can remember that is square. Almost al= l books are "portrait" layout; a few are "landscape", but while square format= is a known option shown in book design references, it is almost unheard of. The only other book I can think of that's nearly (but not quite) square is th= e lovely "Powers of ten". paul --===============2501490739895262465==-- From gavin@learn.bio Wed May 22 19:00:15 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 13:59:59 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2669FBCB-8C19-41FB-9B4D-640CDBF32C72@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8312163367854572307==" --===============8312163367854572307== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 1:50=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I still have that book, though it's deep in some box. https://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/cgb%20files/computer%20structures%20read= ings%20and%20examples%201971.pdf --===============8312163367854572307==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Wed May 22 19:25:27 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 14:25:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2669FBCB-8C19-41FB-9B4D-640CDBF32C72@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2341402668558549350==" --===============2341402668558549350== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, May 22, 2024, 1:58 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On May 22, 2024, at 1:19 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > It's a slog, but if you can make it through Gordon Bell's book, "Computer > > Structures Readings and Examples" you realize Gordon is a "father of > > vintage computing", > > I still have that book, though it's deep in some box. > > Fun trivia item: it's the only book I can remember that is square. Almost > all books are "portrait" layout; a few are "landscape", but while square > format is a known option shown in book design references, it is almost > unheard of. > > paul > Out of curiosity is the book the size of a floppy disk or some computer item at the time? (Any significance or just him being unique?). > --===============2341402668558549350==-- From gavin@learn.bio Wed May 22 19:30:07 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 14:29:48 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1563721885710273389==" --===============1563721885710273389== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 2:25=E2=80=AFPM John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Out of curiosity is the book the size of a floppy disk or some computer > item at the time? (Any significance or just him being unique?). Here's an Amazon listing showing what it looked like. Ordinary book size if not shape. https://www.amazon.com/Computer-Structures-Readings-Examples-McGraw-Hill/dp/0= 070043574/ --===============1563721885710273389==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed May 22 19:39:36 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 15:39:08 -0400 Message-ID: <448564F7-0565-4334-9E8F-816999B30C81@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5200075221085078776==" --===============5200075221085078776== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 22, 2024, at 3:29 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 2:25=E2=80=AFPM John Herron via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> Out of curiosity is the book the size of a floppy disk or some computer >> item at the time? (Any significance or just him being unique?). >=20 > Here's an Amazon listing showing what it looked like. Ordinary book > size if not shape. >=20 > https://www.amazon.com/Computer-Structures-Readings-Examples-McGraw-Hill/dp= /0070043574/ It's about as high as a typical hardcover textbook, just unusually wide. I d= on't know of any other reason other than "it's different". As I mentioned, it is not unprecedented; I have a book about book design whic= h talks at some length about choosing the page proportions, and it mentions s= quare pages as one of the recognized choices. I think it says that it isn't = very common, but I don't remember what else it says, for example any particul= ar reason why one might choose this format (or reasons to avoid it). paul --===============5200075221085078776==-- From gavin@learn.bio Wed May 22 20:01:16 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 15:01:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <448564F7-0565-4334-9E8F-816999B30C81@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9165392994357616340==" --===============9165392994357616340== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 2:39=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning wrote: > As I mentioned, it is not unprecedented; I have a book about book design wh= ich talks at some length about choosing the page proportions, and it mentions= square pages as one of the recognized choices. I think it says that it isn'= t very common, but I don't remember what else it says, for example any partic= ular reason why one might choose this format (or reasons to avoid it). Here's another example: https://www.amazon.com/Annotated-Illustrated-Double-Helix/dp/1476715491 where there's essentially a normal width book inside but the wider pages allow for extensive sidebar-style annotations and also provide more options for graphic layout of illustrations, etc. --===============9165392994357616340==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed May 22 20:08:57 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 20:08:49 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1976194117951508294==" --===============1976194117951508294== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One issue in choosing a book size is that the booksellers have put the book o= n a standard sized shelf so it should conform to that size. Very tall books, = like coffee table books are hard to display because they don=E2=80=99t fit on= a shelf. Booksellers really don=E2=80=99t like those (unless they become best sellers). Sent from my iPhone > On May 22, 2024, at 13:01, Gavin Scott via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, May 22, 2024 at 2:39=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning wrote: >> As I mentioned, it is not unprecedented; I have a book about book design w= hich talks at some length about choosing the page proportions, and it mention= s square pages as one of the recognized choices. I think it says that it isn= 't very common, but I don't remember what else it says, for example any parti= cular reason why one might choose this format (or reasons to avoid it). >=20 > Here's another example: >=20 > https://www.amazon.com/Annotated-Illustrated-Double-Helix/dp/1476715491 >=20 > where there's essentially a normal width book inside but the wider > pages allow for extensive sidebar-style annotations and also provide > more options for graphic layout of illustrations, etc. --===============1976194117951508294==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Wed May 22 20:15:32 2024 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 15:15:14 -0500 Message-ID: <20240522201529.4097C8E566@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3200347341160505460==" --===============3200347341160505460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 01:32 PM 5/22/2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >His and his wife >Gwen's (god rest her soul as well) personal collecting and the museum at >DEC was the basis for the Boston Computer Museum, which effectively went >west and became the Computer History Museum. He was quite sensitive about this. I made the same mistake, referring to it as the "Boston Computer Museum." He told me: "Let me be clear The Computer Museum (TCM) was NEVER called the=20 Boston Computer Museum... Boston was a temporary home when computing=20 passed through New England, but the city itself gave nothing to it. ... As a former collector, founder, and board member of the=20 Digital Computer Museum > The Computer Museum >> current Computer History Mus= eum=20 (a name I deplore and that exists only because of the way the Museum left Bos= ton)=20 I have always been a strong advocate of getting as many artifacts into as man= y=20 hands as possible, and this includes selling museum artifacts when appropriat= e. In essence a whole industry of museums and collectors is essential." - John --===============3200347341160505460==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed May 22 20:39:29 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 13:39:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <664e5260.920a0220.a5cb.7296SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8011949083910468399==" --===============8011949083910468399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 1:15 PM John Foust wrote: > At 01:32 PM 5/22/2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > >His and his wife > >Gwen's (god rest her soul as well) personal collecting and the museum at > >DEC was the basis for the Boston Computer Museum, which effectively went > >west and became the Computer History Museum. > > He was quite sensitive about this. I made the same mistake, referring > to it as the "Boston Computer Museum." He told me: > > "Let me be clear The Computer Museum (TCM) was NEVER called the > Boston Computer Museum... Boston was a temporary home when computing > passed through New England, but the city itself gave nothing to it. > ... As a former collector, founder, and board member of the > Digital Computer Museum > The Computer Museum >> current Computer History > Museum > (a name I deplore and that exists only because of the way the Museum left > Boston) > I have always been a strong advocate of getting as many artifacts into as > many > hands as possible, and this includes selling museum artifacts when > appropriate. > In essence a whole industry of museums and collectors is essential." > > - John > I appreciate the clarification. I agree that it's a shame that the CHM couldn't be called TCM. "Computer History Museum" is a fairly awkward name. Sellam --===============8011949083910468399==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Wed May 22 20:46:45 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 21:46:28 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0754549737952601476==" --===============0754549737952601476== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At least it's a better title than 'The centre for computing history' (Cambridge, UK). On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 9:39 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 1:15 PM John Foust wrote: > > > At 01:32 PM 5/22/2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > >His and his wife > > >Gwen's (god rest her soul as well) personal collecting and the museum at > > >DEC was the basis for the Boston Computer Museum, which effectively went > > >west and became the Computer History Museum. > > > > He was quite sensitive about this. I made the same mistake, referring > > to it as the "Boston Computer Museum." He told me: > > > > "Let me be clear The Computer Museum (TCM) was NEVER called the > > Boston Computer Museum... Boston was a temporary home when computing > > passed through New England, but the city itself gave nothing to it. > > ... As a former collector, founder, and board member of the > > Digital Computer Museum > The Computer Museum >> current Computer History > > Museum > > (a name I deplore and that exists only because of the way the Museum left > > Boston) > > I have always been a strong advocate of getting as many artifacts into as > > many > > hands as possible, and this includes selling museum artifacts when > > appropriate. > > In essence a whole industry of museums and collectors is essential." > > > > - John > > > > I appreciate the clarification. > > I agree that it's a shame that the CHM couldn't be called TCM. "Computer > History Museum" is a fairly awkward name. > > Sellam > --===============0754549737952601476==-- From dave.dunfield@gmail.com Thu May 23 19:54:30 2024 From: Dave Dunfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 15:53:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8444537061094687149==" --===============8444537061094687149== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I case anyone is interested... I've just passed on my "Mits Altair 8800" - this is a very historic system from the 70s - it is: First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) First S100 buss system First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) I did write a pretty decent emulator for my exact Altair system some years ago... And with recent interest in the system, I've just updated it with a few minor improvements and a "cleaned up" edition of the software I created to bootstrap a hardware front-panel based system (no on-board ROM) via a serial port card - requiring you to enter only 18 bytes through the front panel So .. if you'd like to experience what it was like to use a system from the 70s - here's some of the things you can do: Bootstrap it cold Run NorthStar DOS (one of the first commercial DOSes) Run DMF (Device Management Facility) - a DOS I created for it - can you tell that at the time I was working on an IBM mainframe ... my - OS name sounds a lot like various IBM mainframe packages at the time. A few other software setups (for example there's a stand-alone bootable FORTH) Has Editors, Assemblers, BASIC and other tools from the era. and a few games - some written by yours truly - some very early commercial offerings (like "Cranston Manor Adventure", or "Valdez") Note1: My Altair emulator was created under DOS and is a 16 bit program! It does work very well with DosBox (I recommend the one on my site) Note2: I've not updated the ALTAIR.ZIP on "Daves Old Computers" yet - you can get the updated one from: "Daves Old Computers" -> Personal -> Downloads -> OlderDownloadsFromPrevious - look for "ALTAIR" under: Simulators and Emulators *** I don't follow this list nearly as much these days - if you want to reach me, use the contact link on my site! --=20 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Search "Dave's Old Computers" see "my personal" at bottom! --===============8444537061094687149==-- From kevin_anderson_dbq@yahoo.com Thu May 23 21:00:28 2024 From: Kevin Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 21:00:19 +0000 Message-ID: <66649736.3649604.1716498019876@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <66649736.3649604.1716498019876.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4164781574633689777==" --===============4164781574633689777== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had the good fortune of visiting The Computer Museum in Boston in the summe= r of 1984. Reading the museum's Wikipedia article, it appears I was there wh= ile they were still freshly setting up their Museum Wharf location, yet hadn'= t officially opened yet. Unfortunately I only had an hour (or little more) t= o visit before I had to return to where my wife was at a different location (= which I vaguely recall was at an aquarium somewhere nearby?). The clerk at t= he front entrance was really surprised that I was leaving so soon...which in = hindsight I wish now had not been so short. Kevin Anderson Dubuque, Iowa --===============4164781574633689777==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 23 23:05:01 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 16:04:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7531564589368064721==" --===============7531564589368064721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/23/24 12:53, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: > I've just passed on my "Mits Altair 8800" - this is a very historic system > from the 70s - it is: > First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) > First S100 buss system > First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) I don't think the "first" applies in this case. The MCM/70 used an 8008 and was complete computer with storage and display--something the MITS 8800 was not. I spent the weekend soldering together my 8800 (CPU, SIO and 2x 4K DRAM) system, cursing the cheap white wire in the process. Finally got it running with a TVT. I couldn't wait to show it to a female working in my section. She dropped by my apartment, took one look at the thing sitting on my kitchen table and burst out laughing. "That's not a computer; it's a toy!" was her withering reaction. I don't know if my male ego ever recovered from that. And I *hated* the DRAM boards. I do, however, still have the MITS box. Haven't run it in nearly 40 years. --Chuck --===============7531564589368064721==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Thu May 23 23:19:51 2024 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 16:19:09 -0700 Message-ID: <6307CDD1-7271-48BC-AC04-D3BC09F53BE9@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2872806658344647145==" --===============2872806658344647145== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think if you can find that colleague of yours again and then say =E2=80=9Cw= ho is laughing now?=E2=80=9D=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit AI Consultant, PhD +1 360-838-3675 > On May 23, 2024, at 16:05, Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 5/23/24 12:53, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> I've just passed on my "Mits Altair 8800" - this is a very historic system >> from the 70s - it is: >> First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) >> First S100 buss system >> First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) >=20 > I don't think the "first" applies in this case. The MCM/70 used an 8008 > and was complete computer with storage and display--something the MITS > 8800 was not. >=20 > I spent the weekend soldering together my 8800 (CPU, SIO and 2x 4K DRAM) > system, cursing the cheap white wire in the process. Finally got it > running with a TVT. >=20 > I couldn't wait to show it to a female working in my section. She > dropped by my apartment, took one look at the thing sitting on my > kitchen table and burst out laughing. "That's not a computer; it's a > toy!" was her withering reaction. >=20 > I don't know if my male ego ever recovered from that. And I *hated* the > DRAM boards. >=20 > I do, however, still have the MITS box. Haven't run it in nearly 40 years. >=20 > --Chuck >=20 --===============2872806658344647145==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 23 23:58:15 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 19:58:06 -0400 Message-ID: <48042BDD-2EC5-4904-A660-04B120216702@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <66649736.3649604.1716498019876@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1118349277941924480==" --===============1118349277941924480== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a vague memory of visiting the Computer Museum when it was still at DE= C, in the Marlboro building (MRO-n). About the only item I recall is a Goody= ear STARAN computer (or piece of one). I found it rather surprising to have = see a computer made by a tire company. I learned years later that the STARAN= is a very unusual architecture, sometimes called a one-bit machine. More pr= ecisely, I think it's a derivative of William Shooman's "Orthogonal Computer"= vector computer architecture, which was for a while sold by Sanders Associat= es where he worked. =20 paul > On May 23, 2024, at 5:00 PM, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I had the good fortune of visiting The Computer Museum in Boston in the sum= mer of 1984. Reading the museum's Wikipedia article, it appears I was there = while they were still freshly setting up their Museum Wharf location, yet had= n't officially opened yet. Unfortunately I only had an hour (or little more)= to visit before I had to return to where my wife was at a different location= (which I vaguely recall was at an aquarium somewhere nearby?). The clerk at= the front entrance was really surprised that I was leaving so soon...which i= n hindsight I wish now had not been so short. >=20 > Kevin Anderson > Dubuque, Iowa --===============1118349277941924480==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 24 00:04:29 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 17:04:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5337199498438859768==" --===============5337199498438859768== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 23 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I couldn't wait to show it to a female working in my section. She > dropped by my apartment, took one look at the thing sitting on my > kitchen table and burst out laughing. "That's not a computer; it's a > toy!" was her withering reaction. > I don't know if my male ego ever recovered from that. And I *hated* the > DRAM boards. Be very thankful that it was before you had more invested in the relationship. I almost failed to heed the warning (although FAR less personally humiliating), when a new interest thought that "Hitchhiker's guide To The Galaxy" was "stupid". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5337199498438859768==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri May 24 01:36:10 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 20:36:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4167379478417519413==" --===============4167379478417519413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit When my wife (now my ex-wife) told me during a move that my 2 PDP-8/E racks were not going to the new apartment because there wasn't room for her roll top desk and my computer.  And told me "they go or you go with them but they are not moving with us", I should have seen the signs and gone with them. That would have saved me a bunch of money in the divorce AND I would still have those beautiful PDP-8's. I'm still trying to recover from that one. On 5/23/2024 7:04 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 23 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I couldn't wait to show it to a female working in my section.  She >> dropped by my apartment, took one look at the thing sitting on my >> kitchen table and burst out laughing.  "That's not a computer; it's a >> toy!" was her withering reaction. >> I don't know if my male ego ever recovered from that.  And I *hated* the >> DRAM boards. > > Be very thankful that it was before you had more invested in the > relationship. > > I almost failed to heed the warning (although FAR less personally > humiliating), when a new interest thought that "Hitchhiker's guide To > The Galaxy" was "stupid". > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4167379478417519413==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Fri May 24 01:54:45 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 21:54:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8180980539788081602==" --===============8180980539788081602== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The MCM/70 was a Canadian invention though not certain it was a 'first' in the microcomputer world. Some say the Kenbak 1 was. The Altair 8800, as I argue, the first to reach a large audience. It demonstrated what was possible to non-computer people. Happy computing, Murray :) On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 9:36=E2=80=AFPM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > When my wife (now my ex-wife) told me during a move that my 2 PDP-8/E > racks were not going to the new apartment because there wasn't room for > her roll top desk and my computer. And told me "they go or you go with > them but they are not moving with us", I should have seen the signs and > gone with them. > > That would have saved me a bunch of money in the divorce AND I would > still have those beautiful PDP-8's. > > I'm still trying to recover from that one. > > On 5/23/2024 7:04 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 23 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I couldn't wait to show it to a female working in my section. She > >> dropped by my apartment, took one look at the thing sitting on my > >> kitchen table and burst out laughing. "That's not a computer; it's a > >> toy!" was her withering reaction. > >> I don't know if my male ego ever recovered from that. And I *hated* the > >> DRAM boards. > > > > Be very thankful that it was before you had more invested in the > > relationship. > > > > I almost failed to heed the warning (although FAR less personally > > humiliating), when a new interest thought that "Hitchhiker's guide To > > The Galaxy" was "stupid". > > > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > --===============8180980539788081602==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri May 24 09:45:02 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 11:44:46 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7086825405718176851==" --===============7086825405718176851== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 23 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/23/24 12:53, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: >> First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) This would go back to the 50s or earlier. The LGP-30 and comparable machines are considered as personal computers, too. >> First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? > I don't think the "first" applies in this case. The MCM/70 used an 8008 > and was complete computer with storage and display--something the MITS > 8800 was not. And looking beyond the Great American barrier ;-) there was the MICRAL N, much earlier than the MITS, and considered as the first complete commercial microprocessor based computer, i.e. not a kit and available to normal customers. Christian --===============7086825405718176851==-- From dave.dunfield@gmail.com Fri May 24 11:47:06 2024 From: Dave Dunfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 07:46:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4246530935122069321==" --===============4246530935122069321== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry in not a proper chained reply - it's been so long since I've subscribed to this list, systems have changed, and I really can't recall how to log in - so I can post replies! These are replies to my previous: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) -- Chuck Guizis (and several others) -- On "first personal computer" >I don't think the "first" applies in this case. The MCM/70 used an 8008 >and was complete computer with storage and display--something the MITS >8800 was not. I knew this would get lots of comments! -this is what my documentation says: Others debate it, however the Altair deserves this title because: - First computer of substantial capability marketed to hobbiests and small business, and affordable by people of modest means. - First computer to be widely owned by people not professionally involved with the computers industry. - First widely standardized small system bus (S-100), opened the "off the shelf" market for computer add-on's. Ed Roberts, Altair creator: "We coined the phrase Personal Computer and it was first applied to the Altair, i.e., by definition the first personal computer." .. "The beginning of the personal computer industry started without question at MITS with the Altair." -- Christian Corti -- on "Bill Gates first code" >Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? I'm sure he wrote code before Mits BASIC - everyone writes lots of stuff as they learn - but as far as I have been able to determine - Mits BASIC was his first published commercial product. --=20 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Search "Dave's Old Computers" see "my personal" at bottom! --===============4246530935122069321==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Fri May 24 12:51:16 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 08:50:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5894050800081447126==" --===============5894050800081447126== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, May 24, 2024, 07:47 Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: > > -- Christian Corti -- on "Bill Gates first code" > >Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? > > I'm sure he wrote code before Mits BASIC - everyone writes lots of stuff as > they learn - but as far as I have been able to determine - Mits BASIC was > his > first published commercial product. > Surely the code written for Traf-O-Data, before Altair BASIC, counts as a commercial product; I'm not sure what definition of "published" you're using here. -Henry > --===============5894050800081447126==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 24 14:40:49 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 07:40:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8211454679711917650==" --===============8211454679711917650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 24, 2024, 2:45 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, 23 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5/23/24 12:53, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: > >> First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) > > This would go back to the 50s or earlier. The LGP-30 and comparable > machines are considered as personal computers, too. > But was it called a "personal computer"? And was it designed to be "personal"? >> First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) > > Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? > Yes, poorly. > I don't think the "first" applies in this case. The MCM/70 used an 8008 > > and was complete computer with storage and display--something the MITS > > 8800 was not. > > And looking beyond the Great American barrier ;-) there was the MICRAL N, > much earlier than the MITS, and considered as the first complete > commercial microprocessor based computer, i.e. not a kit and available to > normal customers. > But it doesn't meet the other criteria Dave laid out. Most people these days have never heard of the Micral, but even normies might've heard of the Altair 8800 because of the very notoriety it has today because of it's significance back then. Sellam --===============8211454679711917650==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri May 24 14:54:10 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 10:54:04 -0400 Message-ID: <99D2A4B1-2B89-423D-8606-090927ED339A@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4829225250008790105==" --===============4829225250008790105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 24, 2024, at 10:40 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > But it doesn't meet the other criteria Dave laid out. Most people these > days have never heard of the Micral, but even normies might've heard of the > Altair 8800 because of the very notoriety it has today because of it's > significance back then. This is a familiar pattern in discovery and invention. In many cases, X was = first invented by A and then some time later by B. Or "discovered" instead o= f "invented". And often the reason A is not generally identified as the firs= t to do X is that the way A did it didn't lead to something that was widely u= sed. For example: Vikings were the first Europeans to discover America, but their voyages didn'= t start a major movement so Columbus usually gets the credit. FM radio was invented by Hanso Idzerda, but his approach was a bit odd and th= e economic reasons for it disappeared some years later, so Edwin Armstrong ge= ts the credit and Idzerda is pretty much forgotten. In this case, the bias i= s so strong that attempts to revise Wikipedia to correct the history get reje= cted. :-( paul --===============4829225250008790105==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Fri May 24 14:57:57 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 09:57:52 -0500 Message-ID: <1598228494.1006673.1716562672046@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3744024728191516354==" --===============3744024728191516354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable c'mon guys, the altair was the first device with a CPU chip and memory --marketed to INDIVIDUALS, with the expectation that only one person or one r= elated family will use it --intended to be for GENERAL PURPOSE Two, IMHO, requirements for a PERSONAL COMPUTER. Note that a "personal compu= ter" can be used by business or colleges also without being disqualified to b= eing a personal computer earlier devices were targeted as TRAINERS, controllers, or for embeded use,=20 or sold to organizations (business or colleges) the LGP-30 was used by one person AT A TIME, but on different days used by d= ifferent people, who might or might not know each other, by some arbitrary sc= heduling algorithm. The one I was familiar with was run by a tech or grad st= udent, doing work not for self, but for another, definitely outside the realm= of "personal" (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that was a = training device, no?) 
--Carey
--===============3744024728191516354==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 24 15:34:45 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 08:34:35 -0700 Message-ID: <0591205c-a600-4168-8f52-a6230499382a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1598228494.1006673.1716562672046@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0213746251136112898==" --===============0213746251136112898== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/24/24 07:57, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that was = a training device, no?) Do your homewoork--the MCM-70 ran APL, had cassette storage and a display and keyboard. The MITS 8800 had nothing other than RAM and a CPU. APL would have been a distant dream. Of course, the MCM0/70 was Canadian, and not USAn... --Chuck --===============0213746251136112898==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 24 16:14:45 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 09:14:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0591205c-a600-4168-8f52-a6230499382a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7991625997156682862==" --===============7991625997156682862== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 8:34 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 5/24/24 07:57, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > > > (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that > was a training device, no?) > > Do your homewoork--the MCM-70 ran APL, had cassette storage and a > display and keyboard. The MITS 8800 had nothing other than RAM and a > CPU. APL would have been a distant dream. > > Of course, the MCM0/70 was Canadian, and not USAn... > > --Chuck > This is on the Canonical List of ClassicCmp Debate Topics and is a dead horse so beaten that there's nothing left but teeth and fur at this point. Sellam --===============7991625997156682862==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Fri May 24 16:37:17 2024 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 11:36:58 -0500 Message-ID: <20240524163711.8C4B58E4FA@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3731206467509671487==" --===============3731206467509671487== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 07:50 AM 5/24/2024, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: >Surely the code written for Traf-O-Data, before Altair BASIC, counts as a >commercial product; I'm not sure what definition of "published" you're >using here. They didn't sell Traf-o-data, did they? I thought it was a tool they used to analyze data for municipalities, and got paid for the service. - John --===============3731206467509671487==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 24 16:45:45 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 09:45:28 -0700 Message-ID: <48753ddb-d158-4f03-bbeb-d0d0d48ad627@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0775433484989580451==" --===============0775433484989580451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/24/24 09:14, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > This is on the Canonical List of ClassicCmp Debate Topics and is a dead > horse so beaten that there's nothing left but teeth and fur at this point. > Whatever--the MITS 8800 only I/O was a bunch of switches and LEDs. While an I/O card could be added, that's as far as MITS went for several years. Real I/O was left to the user (i.e. buy a terminal of some sort). By way of comparison, the HP-41 was far more complete as a personal computer--it had I/O, expandable storage, input and display. It was Turing-complete. And personal? I suspect more HP41s were sold than the entirety of MITS 8800s. Just pointing out that "firsts" are very difficult. Even though, for years, Shockley et al were trumpeted as the "inventors of the transistor", it's noteworthy that their patent application was carefully worded to avoid claims from work decades earlier by Julius Lilienfeld. In an interesting twist of history, it's the Lilienfeld model of a MOS transistor that prevails in our current technology, not the Shockley junction device. I would not be at all surprised if some obscure work turned up that predates Lilienfeld. Certainly, "oscillating diodes" were known by his time, but not commercialized. "First" is a tricky term, like "best". --Chuck --===============0775433484989580451==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri May 24 16:49:39 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] First Personal Computer Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 11:49:25 -0500 Message-ID: <22384ca9-faa4-40ae-a19d-b86b1a738c87@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3260134623289151396==" --===============3260134623289151396== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The problem with this debate is that the definition of Personal Computer=20 is totally fluid and can be written so that the writers opinion is fact. Each computer system has contributed, in some way, to those that followed. If you really want say what is the first "personal" computing machine=20 that did not require manual manipulation (like an abacus) it would have=20 to be the Antikythera Mechanism. This orrery (model of the solar system) was built around 35 BC.=C2=A0 Yes is = was an analog computer but technically it was the first personal=20 computer (single user, autonomous, hand held and portable too). https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/an-ancient-greek-astronomical-calc= ulation-machine-reveals-new-secrets/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism Ok, all of you computer brains out there, find me something older that=20 matches this (I'm sorry but the sun dial, sextant and compass don't=20 count because they don't calculate they only indicate). Tongue firmly implanted in cheek =F0=9F=98=9B=F0=9F=98=82 On 5/24/2024 11:14 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 8:34=E2=80=AFAM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 5/24/24 07:57, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >> >>> (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that >> was a training device, no?) >> >> Do your homewoork--the MCM-70 ran APL, had cassette storage and a >> display and keyboard. The MITS 8800 had nothing other than RAM and a >> CPU. APL would have been a distant dream. >> >> Of course, the MCM0/70 was Canadian, and not USAn... >> >> --Chuck >> > This is on the Canonical List of ClassicCmp Debate Topics and is a dead > horse so beaten that there's nothing left but teeth and fur at this point. > > Sellam --===============3260134623289151396==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri May 24 16:52:17 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 12:52:08 -0400 Message-ID: <960B4640-544F-478B-978A-C96325F2D79C@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <48753ddb-d158-4f03-bbeb-d0d0d48ad627@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6638418162890737778==" --===============6638418162890737778== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 24, 2024, at 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > Just pointing out that "firsts" are very difficult. Even though, for > years, Shockley et al were trumpeted as the "inventors of the > transistor", it's noteworthy that their patent application was carefully > worded to avoid claims from work decades earlier by Julius Lilienfeld. > In an interesting twist of history, it's the Lilienfeld model of a MOS > transistor that prevails in our current technology, not the Shockley > junction device. I once ran into a pre-WW2 data sheet (or ad?) for a transistor, indeed an FET= that used selenium as the semiconducting material. Most likely that was the= Lilienfeld device. Apparently they didn't work well, not surprising given the use of selenium, w= hich is a very marginal semiconductor. Speaking of which: some early compute= rs tried to use selenium diodes as circuit elements (for gates), with rather = limited success. The MC ARRA is an example. paul --===============6638418162890737778==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 24 17:34:04 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 10:26:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3c3ae7c6-7ffd-436f-b106-c753f4bf0fb4@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <960B4640-544F-478B-978A-C96325F2D79C@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6056888427667701780==" --===============6056888427667701780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/24/24 09:52, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 > I once ran into a pre-WW2 data sheet (or ad?) for a transistor, indeed an F= ET that used selenium as the semiconducting material. Most likely that was t= he Lilienfeld device. Could also have been a device from Oskar Heil in the 1930s. What really made the difference in the case of transistors of any stripe, was the adoption of zone refining: (1951) William Gardner Pfann. Pfann knew Shockley and devised one of the early point-contact transistors, from a 1N26 diode. Zone-refining removed one of the bugaboos that plagued early semiconductor research--that of getting extremely pure material. Pfann was a quiet, shy individual which perhaps explains why he doesn't get the historical applause. Something akin to the Tesla-Steinmetz treatment. --Chuck --===============6056888427667701780==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 24 17:38:43 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 10:38:24 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <48753ddb-d158-4f03-bbeb-d0d0d48ad627@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4248816750593998885==" --===============4248816750593998885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 9:45 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Just pointing out that "firsts" are very difficult. ... > "First" is a tricky term, like "best". > > --Chuck Yep, which is part of the canonical debate ;) This is why I and many others in the hobby removed the term "first" from our vocabularies when speaking of vintage computers. It's kind of pointless anyway as people tend to want a starting point in time at which they can point and say, "That is where it began", when in reality all new invention is just a continuum of improvement over time and occasionally a particular improvement makes more impact than others and gets elevated to "first" status. It's nice for newspaper headlines and such but for historians it's a waste of time (as we've borne witness to countless times over the years as this discussion re-rages periodically). Sellam --===============4248816750593998885==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri May 24 17:46:12 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 13:46:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3c3ae7c6-7ffd-436f-b106-c753f4bf0fb4@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0592894291445566447==" --===============0592894291445566447== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 24, 2024, at 1:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >=20 > On 5/24/24 09:52, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> I once ran into a pre-WW2 data sheet (or ad?) for a transistor, indeed an = FET that used selenium as the semiconducting material. Most likely that was = the Lilienfeld device. >=20 > Could also have been a device from Oskar Heil in the 1930s. No idea. I vaguely remember that it was French. It was in a pile of papers = in my father's office -- long since lost, unfortunately. > What really made the difference in the case of transistors of any > stripe, was the adoption of zone refining: (1951) William Gardner Pfann. > Pfann knew Shockley and devised one of the early point-contact > transistors, from a 1N26 diode. Zone-refining removed one of the > bugaboos that plagued early semiconductor research--that of getting > extremely pure material. >=20 > Pfann was a quiet, shy individual which perhaps explains why he doesn't > get the historical applause. >=20 > Something akin to the Tesla-Steinmetz treatment. I also remember the name Czochralski -- creator of the process that produces = single crystals from which the wafers are sliced. paul --===============0592894291445566447==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri May 24 17:55:46 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 19:55:30 +0200 Message-ID: <2298efc2-c09a-1de2-494-db6b5162dc77@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3888910339034578605==" --===============3888910339034578605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 24 May 2024, Sellam Abraham wrote: > On Fri, May 24, 2024, 2:45?AM Christian Corti via cctalk < >> This would go back to the 50s or earlier. The LGP-30 and comparable >> machines are considered as personal computers, too. > But was it called a "personal computer"? And was it designed to be > "personal"? The term "personal computer" is a modern invention. But it was definitely designed to be used by individuals; it was personal in all ways. Although not affordable for home use. But neither was the original IBM PC. >> And looking beyond the Great American barrier ;-) there was the MICRAL N, > But it doesn't meet the other criteria Dave laid out. Most people these > days have never heard of the Micral, but even normies might've heard of the > Altair 8800 because of the very notoriety it has today because of it's > significance back then. The Altair was absolutely insignificant in Europe. Ok, the MICRAL, too. I'd say, all microprocessor systems before the PET or some SBCs around the mid 70s were totally insignificant. Christian --===============3888910339034578605==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri May 24 17:57:26 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 19:57:17 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1598228494.1006673.1716562672046@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0394123921732933284==" --===============0394123921732933284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 24 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG wrote: > the LGP-30 was used by one person AT A TIME, but on different days used > by different people, who might or might not know each other, by some > arbitrary scheduling algorithm. The one I was familiar with was run by > a tech or grad student, doing work not for self, but for another, > definitely outside the realm of "personal" Ehm... no! Christian --===============0394123921732933284==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri May 24 18:00:39 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 20:00:32 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <960B4640-544F-478B-978A-C96325F2D79C@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0865999755148844315==" --===============0865999755148844315== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 24 May 2024, Paul Koning wrote: > selenium, which is a very marginal semiconductor. Speaking of which: > some early computers tried to use selenium diodes as circuit elements > (for gates), with rather limited success. The MC ARRA is an example. The Anita electronic desktop calculators are a perfect example for the usage of selenium rectifiers in logic gates. Christian --===============0865999755148844315==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 24 18:53:38 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 11:53:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6051635917464841900==" --===============6051635917464841900== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 24 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > This is on the Canonical List of ClassicCmp Debate Topics and is a dead > horse so beaten that there's nothing left but teeth and fur at this point. Besides nobody fully comprehending what "FIRST" really means, . . . "The Altair was just an obscure predecessor; the personal computer was invented by Steve Jobs!" :-) "How can you call it a 'Personal Computer' with no mouse or Windoze?" :-) --===============6051635917464841900==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Fri May 24 23:04:33 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 18:04:27 -0500 Message-ID: <15b1827e-6b20-41a9-9fd7-71f1a636af8d@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <22384ca9-faa4-40ae-a19d-b86b1a738c87@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1289770354314691748==" --===============1289770354314691748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/24/24 11:49, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > The problem with this debate is that the definition of Personal > Computer is totally fluid A friend worked with an IBM 4361 at UMSL in St. Louis.  It was very little used as the print and other unit record had a separate unit to handle that traffic to the University of Missouri, Columbia's 370-145 (later upgraded a lot). But the 4361 was his "PC" and was about ideal.  He had the system, tape drive, a few disks, and a 2741 and a couple of terminals to log on with.  Also a printer. Ran VM/SP 5 as the OS, so you could do about anything you  liked without any impact on the system as far as creating a problem. lots of toys if you knew where to get them.  I don't think they had anything but VM, or if they did wasn't complicated. I think the 4361 was the best of all of those systems, because of the integrated storage director. It had plenty of channels if you needed to add anything, and usually you'd have at least a tape drive on those. All of the air cooled systems, 31, 41, 61 and 81 had integrated com connections, so you could hook up a console, as well as a few other "regular" consoles w/o adding a controller of any sort. Thanks Jim --===============1289770354314691748==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Fri May 24 23:17:29 2024 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 16:17:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0186426152128924504==" --===============0186426152128924504== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well the Xerox Alto had a three button mouse, making it =E2=80=9Cextra=E2=80= =9D personal. ;) Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 24, 2024, at 11:53 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, 24 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>=20 > Besides nobody fully comprehending what "FIRST" really means, . . . > "The Altair was just an obscure predecessor; the personal computer was inve= nted by Steve Jobs!" :-) >=20 > "How can you call it a 'Personal Computer' with no mouse or Windoze?" :-) >=20 --===============0186426152128924504==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 24 23:32:40 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 16:32:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7670075411914670525==" --===============7670075411914670525== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Besides nobody fully comprehending what "FIRST" really means, . . . >> "The Altair was just an obscure predecessor; the personal computer was inv= ented by Steve Jobs!" :-) >> "How can you call it a 'Personal Computer' with no mouse or Windoze?" :-) On Fri, 24 May 2024, Don R wrote: > Well the Xerox Alto had a three button mouse, making it =E2=80=9Cextra=E2= =80=9D personal. ;) You can put significant effort into creating an unambiguous definition. But, SOMEBODY can find an example that doesn't apply that still meets the=20 definition. Using the argument that Roberts was the first to CALL it a "personal=20 computer", means that the "MINI-Computer" was invented by a DEC marketing=20 person. Relatively early (NOT "FIRST") PC mice, such as Logitech's had three=20 buttons. I have heard conflicting stories about why Apple put only one button on=20 their mouse: 1) It would be too confusing for the user, including the need to look away=20 from the screen to see which mouse button is being pushed 2) Difficulty of explaining which button is which, and getting user=20 comprehension of such, in writing documentation 3) Jef Raskin's concept that the system should KNOW what is wanted, so=20 there is no need for more than one. . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7670075411914670525==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Sat May 25 00:27:59 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 20:27:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4080493588137486862==" --===============4080493588137486862== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There was a 4004 based computer developed in 1972 that was released before the Micral called the Comstar 4. It's not very well known but it was written about in the ACM and the Computer History Museum has a copy of their sales manual ACM article https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1499949.1499959 Manual at Computer History Museum https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102686568 On Fri, May 24, 2024, 5:45 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > And looking beyond the Great American barrier ;-) there was the MICRAL N, > much earlier than the MITS, and considered as the first complete > commercial microprocessor based computer, i.e. not a kit and available to > normal customers. > > Christian > > --===============4080493588137486862==-- From cc@alderson.users.panix.com Sat May 25 00:48:26 2024 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 20:31:18 -0400 Message-ID: <4VmNBG1SkmzfYm@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4488931375412896704==" --===============4488931375412896704== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First, Dave wrote: > Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 15:53:53 -0400 > From: Dave Dunfield > I've just passed on my "Mits Altair 8800" - this is a very historic system > from the 70s - it is: > First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) Which is on the face of it incorrect. Then Christian Corti responded (in replying to someone else's objection to Dave's claim of firstness: > Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 11:44:46 +0200 (CEST) > From: Christian Corti via cctalk > >> First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) > Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? Which is nearer the mark, but not fully correct. Then Sellam Abraham stuck his oar in: > Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 07:40:31 -0700 > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > > Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? > Yes, poorly. Oh, FFS, Sellam. OK. Once again, the history goes like this. I have heard it from the horses' mouths (yes, plural). Bill Gates and Paul Allen, along with 4 other students (out of a class of abo= ut 20), really cottoned onto programming in BASIC when a class was offered at their school, the Lakeside School in Seattle. That class used a remote timesharing service called GEIS (General Electric Information System), which ran on GE 635 computers. The six boys (it was a boys' school until the next year when it went co-ed) were allowed to visit a new computer service bureau called CCC, because one of their mothers was acquainted with one of the primaries. This company was usi= ng a DEC PDP-10 timesharing system; the boys were given guest accounts under the proviso that when the system crashed they would document what they were doing at the time of the crash. They were so eager to learn that the systems programmers (two MIT alums and a Stanford alum) allowed them access to the hardware and system call reference manuals, so that they learned assembler programming as well as BASIC, to an expert level. The summer between Paul's graduation and starting college, he along with Bill and three others of the group got ACTUAL PAYING JOBS PROGRAMMING PDP-10 SYSTE= MS FOR THE BONNEVILLE POWER ADMINISTRATION, on a project called RODS (Real-time Operational Data System) which used the systems for control purposes. (The sixth member of their coterie got a job as a junior ranger at Mount Rainier National Park, so wasn't interested in being indoors all day all summer.) Paul dropped out of college after his sophomore year and moved to the Boston area, where he worked for Honeywell's software division and hung out with Bill and Bill's college friends, meanwhile looking for a way to have a small computer of their own. They read the industry magazines to news of small systems. In the mean time, they tried to create a company to sell a traffic counting device based on the Intel 8008 microprocessor. The prototype hardware failed in their first demonstration to the City of Seattle traffic department, and they shelved the idea. When the Altair issue of Popular Electronics came out in mid-December 1974 (cover data January 1975), they were prepared for the challenge. After ascertaining that Ed Roberts and MITS would entertain the idea of looking at a BASIC interpreter for the new system, they sat down and created one from whole cloth, with the division of labor as follows: Bill Gates: the interpreter itself Paul Allen: a simulator running on the PDP-10 for the Intel 8080 process= or Monte Davidoff: a math whiz freshman who wrote the transcendental math r= outines (My sources are Paul Allen and Bob Barnett. Bob was Paul and Bill's manager = at RODS, and the original business manager for Living Computer Museum. I have = no reason to believe that either had any reason to lie to me.) Micro-soft incorporated in June/July 1975, so six months after they wrote the= ir first 8080 machine code, so Dave is wrong about "long before Microsoft". And Sellam is simply wrong. Rich --===============4488931375412896704==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Sat May 25 01:29:55 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 20:29:24 -0500 Message-ID: <426028106.1025635.1716600565005@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <0591205c-a600-4168-8f52-a6230499382a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8274369919400566542==" --===============8274369919400566542== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gak, 4k ram but 100k via virtual memory TO CASSETTE? I want one just for tha= t. LOL Was the cassette multi-track with one track containing timing marks,= so records would not overlay each other? I guess I would argue the definition of a PERSONAL computer is if many or (pr= eferably) nearly all of them were purchased from personal accounts (credit ca= rd, check, or cash via some kind of money order) as opposed to corporate or b= usiness accounts likely subject to double entry bookkeeping and depreciation.= Maybe being depreciated is the definition of NOT personal? For instance, I doubt more than one or two of those LGP-30s were purchased fr= om a personal account, and if so, probably by a start-up that was not yet int= o having a corporate account. This web page https://www.xnumber.com/xnumber/MCM_70_microcomputer.htm=20 indicates they were sold to corporations and universities, so the in the same= category as the LGP-30, which predated it by many years. 
--Carey
> On 05/24/2024 10:34 AM CDT Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > On 5/24/24 07:57, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that wa= s a training device, no?) >=20 > Do your homewoork--the MCM-70 ran APL, had cassette storage and a > display and keyboard. The MITS 8800 had nothing other than RAM and a > CPU. APL would have been a distant dream. >=20 > Of course, the MCM0/70 was Canadian, and not USAn... >=20 > --Chuck --===============8274369919400566542==-- From rickb@bensene.com Sat May 25 01:58:09 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ANITA ((was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 01:58:00 +0000 Message-ID: <96cc3d959f5a4c8e854b934eb1b9e45d@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6956336444464822368==" --===============6956336444464822368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christian Corti wrote: > The Anita electronic desktop calculators are a perfect example for the usag= e of=20 > selenium rectifiers in logic gates. ..and anyone who has restored one knows that the vast majority of the back-to= -back selenium diode packages have to be replaced with something else as the= y no longer function properly. Ambient moisture kills Selenium as a semicond= uctor, and even though these devices were packaged to avoid that to some degr= ee, after 60 years, stuff happens. Many restorers resort to de-soldering the dual-diode packages from the circui= t boards, hollowing out the package (removing the Selenium rectifiers and the= potting material used) and installing back-to-back conventional Silicon diod= es that are rated for the appropriate voltages involved in these machines, po= tting the diodes in place with some kind of material (epoxy?), and re-solderi= ng the package to the circuit board. These calculators used gas-discharge ac= tive logic elements (e.g., thyratrons and dekatrons) and used (relatively spe= aking) high voltages for their logic levels. Fortunately, these gas-discharg= e devices seem to fare quite well with time, and though some do fail due to a= tomic-level outgassing or simple breakage, the majority of them work just as = well the day the machine came off the assembly line. Such practice with the Selenium rectifier modules makes the calculator look o= riginal if done carefully, and allows it to function when operation was impos= sible with the original devices. It is an extremely tedious and time-consum= ing process, as there are a great many of these devices used in the first-gen= eration Sumlock/ANITA calculators. =20 I applaud anyone with the courage and patience to perform such surgery on the= se unusual artifacts. Fortunately, the circuit boards are quite robustly made= , and the traces are large and well adhered to the base material of the circu= it board (unlike many later calculators), making such an operation feasible. = I am not brave enough to try this with the museum's ANITA Mk8. After 25+ yea= rs of owning this artifact, I have not even tried to apply power to it in any= fashion, and probably never will. It is one of the very few calculators in = the museum that is probably not in operational condition, as I strive for all= of the exhibited machines to be operable and available for visitors to the p= hysical museum to play with if they desire. I'm content to leave it as it is= for a display machine, as it is in very nice original condition. Interesting to note that many ANITA Mk8 machines have a single transistor in = them. It's in the power supply. The designers were comfortable enough usin= g these relatively fussy gas-discharge logic devices as digital devices(they = had developed machines like Colossus using this technology considerably befor= e transistors were a thing, so there was certainly historical precedent), but= the transistor was just fine for an analog purpose in the power supply. =20 Boy, did they ever get it backwards (in terms of the longevity of gas-dischar= ge logic elements in electronic calculators and what became the ubiquitous us= e to transistors)! =20 Not intended at all to slight the accomplishment of Sumlock Comptometer in th= e development of these calculators. They set the stage for the explosion of= what was to become a many hundreds of million dollar market by the end of th= e decade, not to mention setting the electronic calculator up to be the drivi= ng force behind integrated circuit development for a consumer-oriented device= . =20 ICs before their development for use in calculators were only for big mainfra= me computers, military weapons systems, the spooks at places like the NSA, an= d the space program. For that matter, the ANITA Mk7/8 could be said to be t= he progenitors for the development of the CPU on a chip, and by extension, th= e personal computer. =20 Notice I didn't specify any machine, or say "first". Slippery slope there. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalculatormuseum.com --===============6956336444464822368==-- From dave.dunfield@gmail.com Sat May 25 03:30:56 2024 From: Dave Dunfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 03:30:53 +0000 Message-ID: <171660785376.4006402.15076876496430779643@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7791139346434970355==" --===============7791139346434970355== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Weill .. I certainly expected lots of "discussion" on these statements about my Altair: I have never claimed to be an "unknown drip"(*) on details of computer history, but here is my reasoning: > First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) I am well aware of small systems that predated the Altair, but they are/were not neary as well known (mainly due to Jan/Feb 1975 Popular Electronics), and I don't recall that nearly as many of them were as commonly owned and operated by "people of modest means" and/or not "in the industry". And unlike most predecessors it was expandable by a means that grew onto a whole industry. I too generally avoid using "first" in history discussions... but At one time I discussed this with Ed Roberts, the creator of the Altair, and he said: "We coined the phrase Personal Computer and it was first applied to the Altair, i.e., by definition the first personal computer." ... "The beginning of the personal computer industry started without question at MITS with the Altair." > First S100 buss system Originally called "Roberts Buss" the Atair expansion buss was used by many systems that followed, and not wanting to use their competitors name, the buss became known as "S100" (presumably System buss with 100 pins) Again, Ed Roberts confirmed this to me. > First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) I should have qualified this with "well known published" code. As far as I know, Bill's career really went off with his implementation of BASIC - which became: Mits Altair Basic And perhaps Microsoft started "only a few years" after (which WAS a LONG time in those days of the industry) - but it wasn't anywhere what it would become some years after that! - and I don't think it was at all well known till MS-DOS (post IBM-PC). But again, I don't claim to be: (*) X - marks the unknown Spurt - a drip under pressure .. and I don't claim to be an "unknown drip under pressure" (I'll happily leave that honor to others in the group :-) Dave --===============7791139346434970355==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat May 25 03:55:59 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 23:55:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <171660785376.4006402.15076876496430779643@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0909300872970810904==" --===============0909300872970810904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 11:30 PM Dave Dunfield via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Weill .. I certainly expected lots of "discussion" on these statements > about my Altair: > > I have never claimed to be an "unknown drip"(*) on details of computer > history, but here is my reasoning: > > > First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) > > I am well aware of small systems that predated the Altair, but they > are/were not neary as well known (mainly due to Jan/Feb 1975 Popular > Electronics), and I don't recall that nearly as many of them were as > commonly owned and operated by "people of modest means" and/or not > "in the industry". > > And unlike most predecessors it was expandable by a means that grew > onto a whole industry. > > > With respect, I have studied the 1956 Royal McBee LGP-23 (and later -30) at length and found one could easily use this computer as a "personal computer". The machine docs indicate that it was sold for general computing use, operated in real time by one person. From the training materials I have on hand, it appears as if this machine was intended as an open system and people were trained to have at it. The Friden Flexowriter was the I/O device, a bootstrap was loaded into the drum memory and off you went. THe LGP-30 inspired Kertz and Kimmeny to write BASIC. One might find it pretty easy to program "Hunt the Wumpus" using this machine, but it was not powerful enough to run BASIC as it was written originally. Pretty cool if you ask me and I don't know of any other stand-alone computer intended to be used specifically as a one person general electronic computing device before the LGP-23/30. A first? Not saying that, but my definition of personal computer is met by the Royal McBee LGP. Conclude what you want. If anyone has a spare LGP-23 or 30 please send to me, thanks in advance. I will come pick it up. Bill Degnan --===============0909300872970810904==-- From dave.dunfield@gmail.com Sat May 25 04:01:38 2024 From: Dave Dunfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 04:01:35 +0000 Message-ID: <171660969522.4006402.9182557215693044718@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0187041714069480440==" --===============0187041714069480440== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't think the "first" applies in this case. The MCM/70 used an 8008 On the subject of early 8008 designs - there was a Canadian one (1974 I think= ) the MIL (Microsystems International Limited) MOD-8 - later also released as the G= NC-8 (Great Northern Computers) I also created an emulator for it as well - so you can experience using anoth= er very early system if you like... Sometime later, Scelbi 8008 BASIC was ported to it (also in my archive) - thi= s has to be one of the very earliest (notice I didn't say F-r-t :-) BASICs. Dave --===============0187041714069480440==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sat May 25 13:27:10 2024 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 09:27:01 -0400 Message-ID: <66484f35-e60f-48bb-82bf-ccae75dfa779@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4042163645140193074==" --===============4042163645140193074== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, anybody in the US could program some SCM90448 EPROMs for me? None of my programmers I have here, can do it. Some old, trusty DATA I/O ??? Thanks! --===============4042163645140193074==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat May 25 13:37:58 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 06:37:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4VmNBG1SkmzfYm@panix5.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8780547540263173842==" --===============8780547540263173842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 24, 2024, 5:48 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > And Sellam is simply wrong. > > Rich > You got your opinions, I got mine. And old Billy Boy has some skeletons in his closet. Perhaps literally. Sellam > --===============8780547540263173842==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat May 25 15:14:18 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 10:14:11 -0500 Message-ID: <694585de-0fdb-46a5-e910-5630c1254882@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <22384ca9-faa4-40ae-a19d-b86b1a738c87@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8193611926292097598==" --===============8193611926292097598== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/24/24 11:49, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > The problem with this debate is that the definition of > Personal Computer is totally fluid and can be written so > that the writers opinion is fact. Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal computer. It was as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT more, and drew much more power.  (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 Germanium diodes,  drum memory.)  but, one guy could program it and run it. The LINC comes in a close second. Jon --===============8193611926292097598==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat May 25 15:21:00 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 08:20:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <694585de-0fdb-46a5-e910-5630c1254882@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2588785025917474411==" --===============2588785025917474411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, May 25, 2024, 8:14 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 5/24/24 11:49, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > The problem with this debate is that the definition of > > Personal Computer is totally fluid and can be written so > > that the writers opinion is fact. > > Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal > computer. It was as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT > more, and drew much more power. (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 > Germanium diodes, drum memory.) but, one guy could program > it and run it. > > The LINC comes in a close second. > > Jon > I know a guy in a basement in Germany that has three supercomputers up and running, that he installed and maintains himself. Except for when he invites guests over, they're very personal. That being said, I don't know that the Bendix G-15 fits the bill, but the LINC very much does, especially considering it was kinda of intended to be a single user machine, and at least one of the team that put it together brought one home and used it there. If I were writing the definitive history of personal computing, I'd maybe start with SIMON, then the LINC, then eventually the Altair. Sellam > --===============2588785025917474411==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat May 25 16:09:21 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 09:09:06 -0700 Message-ID: <5e128a31-c54f-40a4-aff7-d9a4e4e7bb52@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <694585de-0fdb-46a5-e910-5630c1254882@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0971670121524975382==" --===============0971670121524975382== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/25/24 08:14, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal computer. It was > as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT more, and drew much more > power.  (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 Germanium diodes,  drum memory.)  but, > one guy could program it and run it. > > The LINC comes in a close second. Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires special power wiring cannot be "personal" So, for example, the PB-250 qualifies; the IBM 1130 does not. The Honeywell H316 "Kitchen computer" probably does, in the sense of intent, but it was never produced for mass consumption. I recall a short-lived 60's attempt at a personal data retrieval device (cassette tape storage)--I don't think it had any computational capabilities, so probably not a computer per se. Anyone remember the name? --Chuck --===============0971670121524975382==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Sat May 25 17:23:52 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 10:23:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <66484f35-e60f-48bb-82bf-ccae75dfa779@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0015821424520103742==" --===============0015821424520103742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 6:27 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > anybody in the US could program some SCM90448 EPROMs for me? > None of my programmers I have here, can do it. > > Some old, trusty DATA I/O ??? What is an SCM90448? Can you find a datasheet for that part? I cannot. --===============0015821424520103742==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Sat May 25 18:05:26 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 13:05:21 -0500 Message-ID: <1571370084.1035622.1716660321158@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1066883990533039400==" --===============1066883990533039400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When announced and sold new, were the SIMON, LINC and G-15 sold and described= as, in the exact words, "personal computer"? Did the guy with multiple supe= rcomputers in his basement buy them NEW, to use them for their designed purpo= se? If not they are just memorabilia, like a victrola. Somebody claimed the altair was the first time the actual words "personal com= puter" were used. If so, I would say that is the correct definition. Period. Final Answer, Re= gis. I cannot redefine my 8-core gaming machine with 3 NVIDIA cards as a "supercom= puter" just because I want to and it has more memory and megaflops than some = other device that historically was defined as a supercomputer. I cannot take= 250 Radio Shack Color Computers and network them to cooperatively solve a si= ngle problem, and then call that a supercomputer, unless somebody did that wh= en the computer was still being sold new (yes, I know there were "networks" f= or radio shack computers, but AFAIK they only let some number of students sha= re resources from the central teacher's computer and in most or all cases cou= ld not talk directly to each other). specifically, like the altair, which seems to fit common usages of the words = "personal" and "computer":=20 "something sold NEW to private citizens, for personal enjoyment and not = for gain" Granted some buyers hoped to develop software or hardware they could sell. S= ome may have had a day job in computers, but almost as likely might have been= cooks or door-to-door bible salesmen (statistically not absolutely). Because ONE *developer* of the LINC used his position to take one home and us= e it the way we currently use "personal computers" does not mean EVERY OTHER = LINC was also a personal computer. Did he pay the full street price? I'm gu= essing not. If you want to put a plaque on that single unit, fine, but I am = sure other one-off home brew machines need to be included too. I think here = were are talking about production machines available for sale to all. I remember seeing the original development unit for the Amdahl V6, made with = descreet components and much larger (and slower) than the production models, = which although it was nicknamed "Gene's machine", but that was NOT a personal= computer, sorry. =20 The ISA cards that anybody could buy to run S/370 operating systems in a PC s= hould qualify, IMHO, but not 4331 level units. That is getting iffy, i'd lik= e to see statistics on how many were purchased by schools and business for th= eir employees to use AS LONG AS THEY REMAINED EMPLOYED, verses how many were = purchased by individuals and run in their place of resident. I'm guessing at= least 5% were sold to private individuals, and if anybody quibbles that is n= ot enough, I am willing to not include them. I at least thought about buying= one, perhaps there were ongoing license charges that ended that dream? I believe some obsolete warships (certainly ICBM silos) have been sold to pri= vate individuals. Does that retroactively mean the original warships and ICBM= s are "personal yachts and weapons"? I'll bet one rich guy bought a Mississi= ppi riverboat for personal use, does that make them *ALL* into "personal plea= sure craft"? That is a slippery slope. 
--Carey
> On 05/25/2024 10:20 AM CDT Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > On Sat, May 25, 2024, 8:14=E2=80=AFAM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > On 5/24/24 11:49, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > > The problem with this debate is that the definition of > > > Personal Computer is totally fluid and can be written so > > > that the writers opinion is fact. > > > > Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal > > computer. It was as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT > > more, and drew much more power. (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 > > Germanium diodes, drum memory.) but, one guy could program > > it and run it. > > > > The LINC comes in a close second. > > > > Jon > > >=20 > I know a guy in a basement in Germany that has three supercomputers up and > running, that he installed and maintains himself. Except for when he > invites guests over, they're very personal. >=20 > That being said, I don't know that the Bendix G-15 fits the bill, but the > LINC very much does, especially considering it was kinda of intended to be > a single user machine, and at least one of the team that put it together > brought one home and used it there. >=20 > If I were writing the definitive history of personal computing, I'd maybe > start with SIMON, then the LINC, then eventually the Altair. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > > --===============1066883990533039400==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat May 25 18:23:17 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 11:23:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1571370084.1035622.1716660321158@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7203917015062624463==" --===============7203917015062624463== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 11:05 AM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Because ONE *developer* of the LINC used his position to take one home and > use it the way we currently use "personal computers" does not mean EVERY > OTHER LINC was also a personal computer. Did he pay the full street > price? I'm guessing not. If you want to put a plaque on that single unit, > fine, but I am sure other one-off home brew machines need to be included > too. I think here were are talking about production machines available for > sale to all. > I agree with you on the Altair. I was only submitting my comment on the LINC in the scenario where we're throwing context out the window and relying on revisionism to define the term. But in actuality, there were more than one LINC made, and the design was the basis for the DEC MINC-11. So it has some of the requirements. > I believe some obsolete warships (certainly ICBM silos) have been sold to > private individuals. Does that retroactively mean the original warships and > ICBMs are "personal yachts and weapons"? I'll bet one rich guy bought a > Mississippi riverboat for personal use, does that make them *ALL* into > "personal pleasure craft"? That is a slippery slope. > > 
--Carey
> Hey, if the government needs a fully-provisioned aircraft carrier to defend the nation, then so do I. Sellam --===============7203917015062624463==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat May 25 18:27:50 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 13:27:42 -0500 Message-ID: <85d54473-ec20-3f0c-2f60-1eed093ae43b@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <1571370084.1035622.1716660321158@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4082958470652154722==" --===============4082958470652154722== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/25/24 13:05, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > When announced and sold new, were the SIMON, LINC and G-15 sold and describ= ed as, in the exact words, "personal computer"? Did the guy with multiple su= percomputers in his basement buy them NEW, to use them for their designed pur= pose? If not they are just memorabilia, like a victrola. > The Bendix G-15 came out in 1956!=C2=A0 It cost about $60,000 in=20 1956 Dollars.=C2=A0 The first LINC machines were built at an MIT=20 summer school by grad students who would then take them back=20 to their home institutions and use then in biomedical=20 research labs.=C2=A0 The LINCs in this case cost about $50K, and=20 were built starting in 1961-62.=C2=A0 The term "personal=20 computer" was not coined until a LONG time after. Jon --===============4082958470652154722==-- From rickb@bensene.com Sat May 25 20:33:27 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 20:33:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <85d54473-ec20-3f0c-2f60-1eed093ae43b@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1664210400079967214==" --===============1664210400079967214== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While the LGP-30(vacuum tube/drum), G-15(vacuum tube/drum), and PB-250(transi= stor/delay lines) predated it, the ground-breaking Olivetti Programma 101(tra= nsistor/delay line) programmable desktop calculator was officially called a "= personal computer" in some of its advertising and sales literature. It was i= ntroduced in October of 1965. =20 Late in the game as far as single-user, standard AC-line-powered computing de= vices compared to those machines and probably others, but those machines, AFA= IK, were not advertised nor specified as "personal computers". =20 That said, I am much more aware of electronic calculator history than compute= r history, so I could be entirely biased here. Also, the Programma 101, as I= 've stated here before, only scratches the definition of a true computer in t= hat it is not capable of handling any data type but floating point binary-cod= ed decimal numbers, has very limited data storage capability, and had no peri= pheral interfacing capability. There were quite a number of single-user computing devices made and sold that= ran on standard AC power, and were vastly more capable than the Programma 10= 1, and predated it, but, AFAIK, were not advertised or particularly marketed = as "personal computers". One that comes to mind is the Monroe Monrobot III(vacuum tube/drum), introduc= ed in February, 1955. Another is the IBM 610 "Auto Point"(vacuum tube/drum) computer, introduced in= 1957. It was originally named the "Personal Automatic Computer" (PAC) by its design= er. I'm sure that there are quite a few other machines developed in the mid-to-la= te 1950's that would qualify as personal computing devices, but these two are= the ones that I'm aware of that seem to fit the bill. Some of these may ac= tually have been capable of manipulating data types other than decimal number= s. In 1962, Casio introduced its AL-1 programmable (up to 360 steps) relay-based= electric calculator. It was definitely intended as a personal computing dev= ice, and calculations could be performed manually from a keyboard much like a= regular calculator, but also automatically via plastic toothed gears that wo= uld have teeth broken off of them to encode program steps. The gears would b= e electrically read by the machine and directed the machine to perform comput= er-like operations. I'm not arguing that any of these, including the Programma 101, are the first= "personal computers" by any means. I'm just adding some thoughts to the di= scussion. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalculatormuseum.com --===============1664210400079967214==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat May 25 20:41:48 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 13:41:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5e128a31-c54f-40a4-aff7-d9a4e4e7bb52@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3589068694112579047==" --===============3589068694112579047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/25/24 08:14, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from > competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp > wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires > special power wiring cannot be "personal" . . . or 100V or 220V in locations where those are the standard for household residential wiring. Woulld not want to automatically exclude UK machines, such as the Sinclair doorstop wedge. --===============3589068694112579047==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Sat May 25 21:26:58 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 16:26:29 -0500 Message-ID: <1955785072.1038838.1716672389585@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7502406118732158301==" --===============7502406118732158301== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Rick--IIRC, some later Curta (knockoffs?) could do square roots too, is that= true, do you have one?) OK, I'll loosen up, or make exceptions. Maybe some devices before the altair used the exact or inexact words "persona= l computer". but they did not "create a market" or lead directly to a series of similar, c= ompeting products, and do not come anywhere close to what we think of as a "p= ersonal computer" now. The Altair is very different from a modern personal c= omputer, but still has more similarities and a continuous chain of intermedia= te stages. Part of what makes a personal computer to us is that we can easil= y switch from one to another. That would not have been possible between the = LGP-30, LINC, etc. I still ask the question, what fraction of the G-15, LINC, IBM 610, Programma= 101, etc, were purchased as "personal" devices by an individual, for persona= l use, and from household funds rather than via a corporate (including educat= ional) purchase-order? Other terminology: IIRC the first computers that were sold as "supercomputers" were scalar, mayb= e with a few more processors than the generation before, but programmed in th= e same manner. Then shortly came the massively parallel "supercomputers" cre= ated from commodity microcomputer chips, and the term supercomputer has trans= itioned to mean them. 
--Carey
> On 05/25/2024 3:33 PM CDT Rick Bensene via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > While the LGP-30(vacuum tube/drum), G-15(vacuum tube/drum), and PB-250(tran= sistor/delay lines) predated it, the ground-breaking Olivetti Programma 101(t= ransistor/delay line) programmable desktop calculator was officially called a= "personal computer" in some of its advertising and sales literature. It was= introduced in October of 1965. =20 >=20 > Late in the game as far as single-user, standard AC-line-powered computing = devices compared to those machines and probably others, but those machines, A= FAIK, were not advertised nor specified as "personal computers". > =20 > That said, I am much more aware of electronic calculator history than compu= ter history, so I could be entirely biased here. Also, the Programma 101, as= I've stated here before, only scratches the definition of a true computer in= that it is not capable of handling any data type but floating point binary-c= oded decimal numbers, has very limited data storage capability, and had no pe= ripheral interfacing capability. >=20 > There were quite a number of single-user computing devices made and sold th= at ran on standard AC power, and were vastly more capable than the Programma = 101, and predated it, but, AFAIK, were not advertised or particularly markete= d as "personal computers". >=20 > One that comes to mind is the Monroe Monrobot III(vacuum tube/drum), introd= uced in February, 1955. >=20 > Another is the IBM 610 "Auto Point"(vacuum tube/drum) computer, introduced = in 1957. > It was originally named the "Personal Automatic Computer" (PAC) by its desi= gner. >=20 > I'm sure that there are quite a few other machines developed in the mid-to-= late 1950's that would qualify as personal computing devices, but these two a= re the ones that I'm aware of that seem to fit the bill. Some of these may = actually have been capable of manipulating data types other than decimal numb= ers. >=20 > In 1962, Casio introduced its AL-1 programmable (up to 360 steps) relay-bas= ed electric calculator. It was definitely intended as a personal computing d= evice, and calculations could be performed manually from a keyboard much like= a regular calculator, but also automatically via plastic toothed gears that = would have teeth broken off of them to encode program steps. The gears would= be electrically read by the machine and directed the machine to perform comp= uter-like operations. >=20 > I'm not arguing that any of these, including the Programma 101, are the fir= st "personal computers" by any means. I'm just adding some thoughts to the = discussion. >=20 > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > https://oldcalculatormuseum.com --===============7502406118732158301==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat May 25 21:57:19 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 14:57:10 -0700 Message-ID: <686a9f2e-c784-4dae-b8e3-f5e4985b09f3@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2628723784519309603==" --===============2628723784519309603== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/25/24 13:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > . . . or 100V or 220V in locations where those are the standard for > household residential wiring. > Woulld not want to automatically exclude UK machines, such as the > Sinclair doorstop wedge. Okay, I'll refine it for the international crowd. Anything that requires over 1800 VA to run isn't a "personal computer" That's about 8 amps for the 220 volt world. --Chuck --===============2628723784519309603==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sat May 25 23:41:09 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 18:09:13 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0745445954803003923==" --===============0745445954803003923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have an old Logical Devices Inc, Gangpro 8 with DIP sockets on it.  What package is this part?  Is it compatible with anything more widely known? On 5/25/2024 12:23 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 6:27 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk > wrote: >> Hi all, >> anybody in the US could program some SCM90448 EPROMs for me? >> None of my programmers I have here, can do it. >> >> Some old, trusty DATA I/O ??? > What is an SCM90448? Can you find a datasheet for that part? I cannot. --===============0745445954803003923==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sat May 25 23:59:05 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 18:58:53 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <686a9f2e-c784-4dae-b8e3-f5e4985b09f3@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1228433815717639196==" --===============1228433815717639196== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Now that is an interesting refinement.  Limiting to 1800 VA, most likely eliminates almost anything vacuum tube based. My 1974 PDP-8/E computer alone (not counting external storage devices) was rated at 115V @ 10A.  I don't know what the power factor of it is but that is 1150 Watts.  Does that count? Technically I don't need any peripherals to program it or get the program results.  I just use the front panel. Does that 1800VA include any necessary peripherals such as terminals, CRT's, disk drives, tape drives, etc? See, even that definition is really non-specific and open to interpretation. Should we add a limitation on volume occupied as well?  This would eliminate many rack or multiple rack computers. What about memory type?  Before semiconductor RAM and CORE there was serial, drum, tape and mechanical memory systems Does it have to be a digital computer.  There we many table top analog computers in the 50's and 60's.  Even Heathkit made some. Does the output need to be text (What about an analog computer with a digital nixie tube display)??? Everyone has their own definition of what a Personal Computer is to them.  It's all subjective. How much computing power and electricity are we using trying to identify something whose mere definition is so subject to interpretation? On 5/25/2024 4:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/25/24 13:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> . . . or 100V or 220V in locations where those are the standard for >> household residential wiring. >> Woulld not want to automatically exclude UK machines, such as the >> Sinclair doorstop wedge. > Okay, I'll refine it for the international crowd. Anything that > requires over 1800 VA to run isn't a "personal computer" That's about 8 > amps for the 220 volt world. > > --Chuck > --===============1228433815717639196==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sun May 26 00:01:46 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 18:42:13 -0500 Message-ID: <85460e0e-8d0d-4896-849e-bd621e3d4862@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <1955785072.1038838.1716672389585@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6813742285797915434==" --===============6813742285797915434== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm sorry but I beg to differ with you here.=C2=A0 The DEC PDP line of single= =20 user interactive computers (as opposed to batch processing only systems)=20 started in the late 1950's and early 1960's and spawned many generations=20 as well as copies and other companies (Data General being the most well=20 known of these).Yes multi user time sharing operating systems we added=20 later on but initially they were single user interactive, (DEC 10 & 20=20 excepted).Does a computer lose its "Personal" identification if it can=20 handle multiple users as an option. There were multiple user time=20 sharing Operating Systems for many early personal computers (Unix,=20 Xenix, MP/M, Uniflex, OS/9, etc.). Even the aforementioned PDP computers=20 ran multi-user time sharing systems. Does that, then, invalidate them=20 for consideration as a personal computer? Does that make any Linux=20 machine not a personal computer, by definition, because it can handle=20 more than one user or task? As I have said earlier in this thead and its=20 fore bearers, the term Personal Computer is so non-specific that we can=20 argue from here to Alpha Centauri and back without coming up with an=20 agreed upon definition. So, until a concrete definition can be made, the=20 discussion of the answer is completely moot. I stick by my original=20 challenge, find a calculating device that predates the Antikythera=20 Mechanism (36 BCE). Simple measuring devices like the sun dial and=20 sextant don't count as they don't calculate, they measure. On 5/25/2024 4:26 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > (Rick--IIRC, some later Curta (knockoffs?) could do square roots too, is th= at true, do you have one?) > > OK, I'll loosen up, or make exceptions. > > Maybe some devices before the altair used the exact or inexact words "perso= nal computer". > > but they did not "create a market" or lead directly to a series of similar,= competing products, and do not come anywhere close to what we think of as a = "personal computer" now. The Altair is very different from a modern personal= computer, but still has more similarities and a continuous chain of intermed= iate stages. Part of what makes a personal computer to us is that we can eas= ily switch from one to another. That would not have been possible between th= e LGP-30, LINC, etc. > > I still ask the question, what fraction of the G-15, LINC, IBM 610, Program= ma 101, etc, were purchased as "personal" devices by an individual, for perso= nal use, and from household funds rather than via a corporate (including educ= ational) purchase-order? > > Other terminology: > > IIRC the first computers that were sold as "supercomputers" were scalar, ma= ybe with a few more processors than the generation before, but programmed in = the same manner. Then shortly came the massively parallel "supercomputers" c= reated from commodity microcomputer chips, and the term supercomputer has tra= nsitioned to mean them. > > 
--Carey
> >> On 05/25/2024 3:33 PM CDT Rick Bensene via cctalk= wrote: >> >> =20 >> While the LGP-30(vacuum tube/drum), G-15(vacuum tube/drum), and PB-250(tra= nsistor/delay lines) predated it, the ground-breaking Olivetti Programma 101(= transistor/delay line) programmable desktop calculator was officially called = a "personal computer" in some of its advertising and sales literature. It wa= s introduced in October of 1965. >> >> Late in the game as far as single-user, standard AC-line-powered computing= devices compared to those machines and probably others, but those machines, = AFAIK, were not advertised nor specified as "personal computers". >> =20 >> That said, I am much more aware of electronic calculator history than comp= uter history, so I could be entirely biased here. Also, the Programma 101, a= s I've stated here before, only scratches the definition of a true computer i= n that it is not capable of handling any data type but floating point binary-= coded decimal numbers, has very limited data storage capability, and had no p= eripheral interfacing capability. >> >> There were quite a number of single-user computing devices made and sold t= hat ran on standard AC power, and were vastly more capable than the Programma= 101, and predated it, but, AFAIK, were not advertised or particularly market= ed as "personal computers". >> >> One that comes to mind is the Monroe Monrobot III(vacuum tube/drum), intro= duced in February, 1955. >> >> Another is the IBM 610 "Auto Point"(vacuum tube/drum) computer, introduced= in 1957. >> It was originally named the "Personal Automatic Computer" (PAC) by its des= igner. >> >> I'm sure that there are quite a few other machines developed in the mid-to= -late 1950's that would qualify as personal computing devices, but these two = are the ones that I'm aware of that seem to fit the bill. Some of these may= actually have been capable of manipulating data types other than decimal num= bers. >> >> In 1962, Casio introduced its AL-1 programmable (up to 360 steps) relay-ba= sed electric calculator. It was definitely intended as a personal computing = device, and calculations could be performed manually from a keyboard much lik= e a regular calculator, but also automatically via plastic toothed gears that= would have teeth broken off of them to encode program steps. The gears woul= d be electrically read by the machine and directed the machine to perform com= puter-like operations. >> >> I'm not arguing that any of these, including the Programma 101, are the fi= rst "personal computers" by any means. I'm just adding some thoughts to the= discussion. >> >> Rick Bensene >> The Old Calculator Museum >> https://oldcalculatormuseum.com --===============6813742285797915434==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sun May 26 00:16:10 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 18:20:55 -0500 Message-ID: <15eb7a0b-8d0f-4a12-8a8b-c91764bbfdea@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <85d54473-ec20-3f0c-2f60-1eed093ae43b@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0988481126240771788==" --===============0988481126240771788== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You see, we are back to my original comment.  The definition of Personal Computer is quite fluid.  Does it have to be called a Personal Computer in advertising literature or does any computer that can be used by a single person, in any environment, constitute a personal computer. If i am writing the definition than my original comment that the Antikythera Mechanism is the first computing device designed to be used by a single person.. To someone else the Altiar is the first personal computer.  And to yet, someone else an early PDP or HP computer might be the first personal computer. There are many mechanical and later analog computing devices in use long before the modern digital computer.  What about the Hollerith Machine used to count the census from the 1890's to the 1950's.  It was a one person calculating machine but since it was used for commercial purposes does that make it a personal computer.  When IBM initially released the first PC it was intended not for home use but for business use (for $10,000 1980's dollars).  The Northstar Horizon was also marketed as a business computer but used by home S-100 hobbyists. The point, as I stated earlier, is that for every different definition we will find a different result. I guess this means that the definition of personal computer is personal😛 This is written with tongue firmly implanted in cheek. On 5/25/2024 1:27 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 5/25/24 13:05, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >> When announced and sold new, were the SIMON, LINC and G-15 sold and >> described as, in the exact words, "personal computer"?  Did the guy >> with multiple supercomputers in his basement buy them NEW, to use >> them for their designed purpose?  If not they are just memorabilia, >> like a victrola. >> > The Bendix G-15 came out in 1956!  It cost about $60,000 in 1956 > Dollars.  The first LINC machines were built at an MIT summer school > by grad students who would then take them back to their home > institutions and use then in biomedical research labs.  The LINCs in > this case cost about $50K, and were built starting in 1961-62.  The > term "personal computer" was not coined until a LONG time after. > > Jon > --===============0988481126240771788==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Sun May 26 01:56:16 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs in home vs businesses (70s/80s) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 02:50:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6299068543481302427==" --===============6299068543481302427== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 27 Apr 2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How many know that AAM is a two byte instruction, with te second byte beint > 0Ah? > Changing the second byte to 8 gave division by 8, etc. It's the kind of a question you can't really answer, but the feature has been known since forever. Myself I've found this out in early 1990s, soon after I switched from the Z80 to x86. And now it's a documented feature: Opcode Instruction Op/ 64-bit Compat/ Description En Mode Leg Mode D5 0A AAD A Invalid Valid ASCII adjust AX before division. D5 ib (No mnemonic) A Invalid Valid Adjust AX before division to number base imm8. Opcode Instruction Op/ 64-bit Compat/ Description En Mode Leg Mode D4 0A AAM A Invalid Valid ASCII adjust AX after multiply. D4 ib (No mnemonic) A Invalid Valid Adjust AX after multiply to number base imm8. (from "Intel 64 and IA-32 Architectures Software Developer's Manual"). I did use these instructions in a bunch of my programs; by 1990s it hardly mattered that some early x86 clones did not support these encodings (and I think it was indeed the way to tell NEC V20 and other x86 chips apart: good if you wanted to make seamless use of the 8080 emulation mode). FWIW, Maciej --===============6299068543481302427==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun May 26 02:59:24 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs in home vs businesses (70s/80s) Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 19:59:15 -0700 Message-ID: <1a7f2b96-3b12-431d-8b72-f02ceb07d56c@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6198057120642990954==" --===============6198057120642990954== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/25/24 18:50, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > I think it was indeed the way to tell NEC V20 and other x86 chips apart: > good if you wanted to make seamless use of the 8080 emulation mode). Is this something you've actually verified? Seems to be a bit of an urban legend. I can test it on a V20 system if you don't have one. --Chuck --===============6198057120642990954==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun May 26 03:14:54 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 20:14:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3408859458444708313==" --===============3408859458444708313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 1:33 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I'm just adding some thoughts to the discussion. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > https://oldcalculatormuseum.com Rick, I always appreciate your incredibly informative contributions. Sellam --===============3408859458444708313==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun May 26 03:21:18 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 20:21:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <15eb7a0b-8d0f-4a12-8a8b-c91764bbfdea@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6556088458763015437==" --===============6556088458763015437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 5:16=E2=80=AFPM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > You see, we are back to my original comment. The definition of Personal > Computer is quite fluid. Does it have to be called a Personal Computer > in advertising literature or does any computer that can be used by a > single person, in any environment, constitute a personal computer. Perhaps in the future people will not so much be fixated on the terms we use and debate today and will instead mark progress in computing by some other more sociologically-centered metric, like adoption of computers at home. That seemed to really take off around 1975, with the public release of the Altair 8800. Time will tell. Sellam --===============6556088458763015437==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Sun May 26 05:03:53 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs in home vs businesses (70s/80s) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 06:03:46 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1a7f2b96-3b12-431d-8b72-f02ceb07d56c@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0282803093409901027==" --===============0282803093409901027== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I think it was indeed the way to tell NEC V20 and other x86 chips apart: > > good if you wanted to make seamless use of the 8080 emulation mode). > > Is this something you've actually verified? Seems to be a bit of an > urban legend. I can test it on a V20 system if you don't have one. You mean the 8080 emulation mode or the CPU detection via AAD/AAM? If the latter, then I'm fairly sure I verified that as we had a lab full of V20 PC/XT clones back at the university (mind it's been ~30 years now though) and here's a piece of code of mine I could find from back in the day, dated Mar 10th, 1996: ; - = 00: ; 00 - 8088 ; 01 - 8086 ; 02 - V20 (NEC) ; 03 - V30 (NEC) ; >= 04 - reserved (do not use) [...] ; 8088, 8086, V20 or V30 MOV AH,001H AAD 000H JZ CHKBUS ADD [CPUDSC],002H ; = 00 or 02 CHKBUS: CALL DETBUS ; incremented if 16-bit data bus ADD [CPUDSC],AL JMP EDTCPU This replaced older code going back to Oct 11th, 1993 that instead did: MOV AL,040H MUL AL JNZ CHKBUS I cannot remember anymore why I made this change: it may well have been for the sake of it as I was eager to experiment with odd stuff. I can't imagine myself making a change though that would regress things. As to the former I meant to try it and had documentation, but that has never materialised. I did a little 8080 programming, but not much and with actual 8080 hardware only. Feel free to make any tests you want with your V20 though as my memory could be tricking me after so many years. I haven't come across a V20 ever since 1990s. Maciej --===============0282803093409901027==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 26 06:50:30 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 00:50:18 -0600 Message-ID: <004d27a6-e8c4-4a21-b388-5e7bf213c6eb@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <85460e0e-8d0d-4896-849e-bd621e3d4862@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6404671465788704480==" --===============6404671465788704480== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-05-25 5:42 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I'm sorry but I beg to differ with you here.  The DEC PDP line of single > user interactive computers (as opposed to batch processing only systems) > started in the late 1950's and early 1960's and spawned many generations > as well as copies and other companies (Data General being the most well > known of these).Yes multi user time sharing operating systems we added > later on but initially they were single user interactive, (DEC 10 & 20 > excepted).Does a computer lose its "Personal" identification if it can > handle multiple users as an option. There were multiple user time > sharing Operating Systems for many early personal computers (Unix, > Xenix, MP/M, Uniflex, OS/9, etc.). Even the aforementioned PDP computers > ran multi-user time sharing systems. Does that, then, invalidate them > for consideration as a personal computer? Does that make any Linux > machine not a personal computer, by definition, because it can handle > more than one user or task? As I have said earlier in this thead and its > fore bearers, the term Personal Computer is so non-specific that we can > argue from here to Alpha Centauri and back without coming up with an > agreed upon definition. So, until a concrete definition can be made, the > discussion of the answer is completely moot. I stick by my original > challenge, find a calculating device that predates the Antikythera > Mechanism (36 BCE). Simple measuring devices like the sun dial and > sextant don't count as they don't calculate, they measure. I think the most important thing for a Personal Computer, is the average Joe, can afford and use it. The second thing is to have ample memory and IO to run useful programs. The basic Apple I,II does not count as many others as it had BASIC in ROM and tape IO. The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer. CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. Unix for the PDP-11 is real operating system but not personal as it requires a admin,and a swapping media. --===============6404671465788704480==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 26 06:53:48 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 00:53:38 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <686a9f2e-c784-4dae-b8e3-f5e4985b09f3@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8529712023929059165==" --===============8529712023929059165== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-05-25 3:57 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/25/24 13:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> . . . or 100V or 220V in locations where those are the standard for >> household residential wiring. >> Woulld not want to automatically exclude UK machines, such as the >> Sinclair doorstop wedge. > > Okay, I'll refine it for the international crowd. Anything that > requires over 1800 VA to run isn't a "personal computer" That's about 8 > amps for the 220 volt world. > > --Chuck > That means all the NEW gaming PC's have been deleted from this discussion, Good job. :) --===============8529712023929059165==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Sun May 26 07:37:23 2024 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 08:37:15 +0100 Message-ID: <22f201daaf3f$87ebd0f0$97c372d0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <15eb7a0b-8d0f-4a12-8a8b-c91764bbfdea@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5179162729671832976==" --===============5179162729671832976== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Katz via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2024 12:21 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Mike Katz > Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer >=20 > You see, we are back to my original comment. The definition of Personal > Computer is quite fluid. Does it have to be called a Personal Computer in > advertising literature or does any computer that can be used by a single pe= rson, > in any environment, constitute a personal computer. Surely when we say "Personal Computer" we mean "Turing Complete Digital Perso= nal Computer" it is just a tad long winded to say so..... ... and if we simply say "digital" which excludes many devices that still inc= ludes the Abacus .... Dave --===============5179162729671832976==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sun May 26 10:59:27 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 11:59:10 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004d27a6-e8c4-4a21-b388-5e7bf213c6eb@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4203974417419424327==" --===============4203974417419424327== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 26 May 2024 at 07:50, ben via cctalk wrote: > > I think the most important thing for a Personal Computer, > is the average Joe, can afford and use it. Yes, agreed. > The second thing is > to have ample memory and IO to run useful programs. Now, you see, I'd agree with that but then you immediately go and blow it out of the water with this: > The basic Apple > I,II does not count as many others as it had BASIC in ROM and tape IO. Hang on. So what? My first computer was a Sinclair ZX Spectrum. 48kB RAM, tape cassette storage, floating-point BASIC with graphics commands in ROM. It was an ample amount of RAM, it could run useful programs, and I both bought hundreds of them and wrote my own. What kind of subjective elitist BS is this?! My Spectrum outspecced many early CP/M machines and they sold in the hundreds of thousands to millions (worldwide, amalgamating all brands) and spawned a multi-TRILLION-dollar industry, but in the opinion of the mighty Mr I-don't-need-a-capital-letter-or-a-surname ben, they don't count? Get in the sea. Utter tosh. You dismiss an entire decade's worth of hardware that created careers, shaped the economies of nations, and arguably caused the collapse of communism in Europe because you don't approve? No. Not for a second, not to be even entertained for amusement for an instant, no. > The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer. Tell me you never used DOS in anger, never saw CCP/M and CDOS and QNX and DESQview, or Xenix, or really knew the PC platform at all, without telling me. Utter bilgewater. Apparently you never even saw Borland Sidekick. Ill-informed nonsense. > CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. Wrong. > Unix for the PDP-11 is real > operating system but not personal as it requires a admin,and a swapping > media. Irrelevant. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4203974417419424327==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sun May 26 11:06:53 2024 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 07:06:44 -0400 Message-ID: <2ea8c662-06c1-4350-9cce-ece55bfc34a0@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5634783946436496828==" --===============5634783946436496828== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-05-25 13:23, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 6:27 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> anybody in the US could program some SCM90448 EPROMs for me? >> None of my programmers I have here, can do it. >> >> Some old, trusty DATA I/O ??? > > What is an SCM90448? Can you find a datasheet for that part? I cannot. Motorola EPROM, 8kx8, 24 pin DIL. Was used a lot on pdp11/23s, and PRO350? Trying to upgrade some of my 11/23+ boards --===============5634783946436496828==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Sun May 26 11:26:58 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 04:26:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2ea8c662-06c1-4350-9cce-ece55bfc34a0@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2860368252984286118==" --===============2860368252984286118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, May 26, 2024, 4:06 AM emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2024-05-25 13:23, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 6:27 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> Hi all, > >> anybody in the US could program some SCM90448 EPROMs for me? > >> None of my programmers I have here, can do it. > >> > >> Some old, trusty DATA I/O ??? > > > > What is an SCM90448? Can you find a datasheet for that part? I cannot. > Motorola EPROM, 8kx8, 24 pin DIL. > > Was used a lot on pdp11/23s, and PRO350? > > Trying to upgrade some of my 11/23+ boards > Oh, so a Motorola MCM68764 / MCM68766? > --===============2860368252984286118==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sun May 26 12:33:09 2024 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 20:32:53 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2240065221425823573==" --===============2240065221425823573== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well said. On Sun, 26 May 2024, 6:59=E2=80=AFpm Liam Proven via cctalk, wrote: > On Sun, 26 May 2024 at 07:50, ben via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I think the most important thing for a Personal Computer, > > is the average Joe, can afford and use it. > > Yes, agreed. > > > The second thing is > > to have ample memory and IO to run useful programs. > > Now, you see, I'd agree with that but then you immediately go and blow > it out of the water with this: > > > The basic Apple > > I,II does not count as many others as it had BASIC in ROM and tape IO. > > Hang on. So what? > > My first computer was a Sinclair ZX Spectrum. 48kB RAM, tape cassette > storage, floating-point BASIC with graphics commands in ROM. It was an > ample amount of RAM, it could run useful programs, and I both bought > hundreds of them and wrote my own. > > What kind of subjective elitist BS is this?! > > My Spectrum outspecced many early CP/M machines and they sold in the > hundreds of thousands to millions (worldwide, amalgamating all brands) > and spawned a multi-TRILLION-dollar industry, but in the opinion of > the mighty Mr I-don't-need-a-capital-letter-or-a-surname ben, they > don't count? > > Get in the sea. > > Utter tosh. You dismiss an entire decade's worth of hardware that > created careers, shaped the economies of nations, and arguably caused > the collapse of communism in Europe because you don't approve? > > No. Not for a second, not to be even entertained for amusement for an > instant, no. > > > > The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer. > > Tell me you never used DOS in anger, never saw CCP/M and CDOS and QNX > and DESQview, or Xenix, or really knew the PC platform at all, without > telling me. Utter bilgewater. Apparently you never even saw Borland > Sidekick. > > Ill-informed nonsense. > > > > CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. > > Wrong. > > > Unix for the PDP-11 is real > > operating system but not personal as it requires a admin,and a swapping > > media. > > Irrelevant. > > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > --===============2240065221425823573==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Sun May 26 14:26:59 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 09:26:50 -0500 Message-ID: <733268321.1044913.1716733610522@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1147099684584993613==" --===============1147099684584993613== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the time of its release, (1) learning to program and (2) blinking lights w= as enough to be a useful device. 
--Carey
> On 05/26/2024 5:59 AM CDT Liam Proven via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On Sun, 26 May 2024 at 07:50, ben via cctalk wrot= e: > > > > I think the most important thing for a Personal Computer, > > is the average Joe, can afford and use it. >=20 > Yes, agreed. >=20 > > The second thing is > > to have ample memory and IO to run useful programs. >=20 > Now, you see, I'd agree with that but then you immediately go and blow > it out of the water with this: >=20 > > The basic Apple > > I,II does not count as many others as it had BASIC in ROM and tape IO. >=20 > Hang on. So what? --===============1147099684584993613==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun May 26 15:49:54 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 08:49:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <22f201daaf3f$87ebd0f0$97c372d0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4539959891367595704==" --===============4539959891367595704== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, May 26, 2024, 12:37 AM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike Katz via cctalk > > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2024 12:21 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Mike Katz > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer > > > > You see, we are back to my original comment. The definition of Personal > > Computer is quite fluid. Does it have to be called a Personal Computer > in > > advertising literature or does any computer that can be used by a single > person, > > in any environment, constitute a personal computer. > > Surely when we say "Personal Computer" we mean "Turing Complete Digital > Personal Computer" it is just a tad long winded to say so..... > ... and if we simply say "digital" which excludes many devices that still > includes the Abacus .... > > Dave > The abacus is no more a computer than a ruler, or maybe a slide rule. Sellam --===============4539959891367595704==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Sun May 26 16:30:21 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 09:30:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3012915947201389100==" --===============3012915947201389100== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 4:26 AM Glen Slick wrote: > > On Sun, May 26, 2024, 4:06 AM emanuel stiebler wrote: >> >> On 2024-05-25 13:23, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> > On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 6:27 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> anybody in the US could program some SCM90448 EPROMs for me? >> >> None of my programmers I have here, can do it. >> >> >> >> Some old, trusty DATA I/O ??? >> > >> > What is an SCM90448? Can you find a datasheet for that part? I cannot. >> Motorola EPROM, 8kx8, 24 pin DIL. >> >> Was used a lot on pdp11/23s, and PRO350? >> >> Trying to upgrade some of my 11/23+ boards > > Oh, so a Motorola MCM68764 / MCM68766? Anyway, if the SCM90448 EPROMs for your M8189 KDF11-B are actually Motorola MC68764 / MC68766 EPROMs, I have BP Microsystems device programmers that can handle those. I have programmed some of those myself for my own M8189 KDF11-B. Are you looking to get set up with the 23-380E4 / 23-381E4 M8189-BG firmware? Those Motorola EPROMs require a Vpp of 25 volts, which is probably why a lot of modem device programmers don't handle them. --===============3012915947201389100==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun May 26 16:56:35 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 09:56:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004d27a6-e8c4-4a21-b388-5e7bf213c6eb@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2541225315896647964==" --===============2541225315896647964== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 26 May 2024, ben via cctalk wrote: > I think the most important thing for a Personal Computer, > is the average Joe, can afford and use it. The second thing is > to have ample memory and IO to run useful programs. The basic Apple I,II > does not count as many others as it had BASIC in ROM and tape IO. > The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer. > CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. Unix for the PDP-11 is real operating > system but not personal as it requires a admin,and a swapping > media. So, basically, the first "Personal Computer" does not yet exist, and all of those being discussed are merely predecessors for it. I can definitely agree with that, although not necessarily with your specific list of requirements. Although there need to be some that Joe Average can afford, they don't all need to be, as a requirement; Tony Cole can build a gold plated one, and billg can spec optional features that the rest of us can't afford - if I were designing billg's house, I'd build some "personal" computing capability in the walls, or filling the main rooms, and bedroom could be a cot in the walls. "Ample memory"??!? perhaps that should be TerrorBytes. I/O??!? Does that need to be built in, in the minimum purchase configuration, or merely provision for it externally? "Real OS"? While I don't agree with your specific examples of inadequacies, I will readily concede that nothing so far is ready for the title. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2541225315896647964==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 26 18:11:37 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 12:11:26 -0600 Message-ID: <57d74f16-2c30-4367-9493-7487586bb9f2@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2967261620363633402==" --===============2967261620363633402== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-05-26 10:56 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 26 May 2024, ben via cctalk wrote: >> I think the most important thing for a Personal Computer, >> is the average Joe, can afford and use it. The second thing is >> to have ample memory and IO to run useful programs. The  basic Apple >> I,II does not count as many others as it had BASIC in ROM and tape IO. >> The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer. >> CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. Unix for the PDP-11 is real >> operating system but not personal as it requires a admin,and a swapping >> media. > > So, basically, the first "Personal Computer" does not yet exist, and all > of those being discussed are merely predecessors for it. > > I can definitely agree with that, > although not necessarily with your specific list of requirements. > > Although there need to be some that Joe Average can afford, they don't > all need to be, as a requirement; Tony Cole can build a gold plated one, > and billg can spec optional features that the rest of us can't afford - > if I were designing billg's house, I'd build some "personal" computing > capability in the  walls, or filling the main rooms, and bedroom could > be a cot in the walls. I want more books and shelves to with them. That a side, how many people here still use the 16Kb (favorite machine) with tape IO? I did use a CP/M machine once, but the 8" drive was a bit sticky. You rap the drive to get it unstuck, but if you rap it too hard the machine would reset. > "Ample memory"??!?  perhaps that should be TerrorBytes. > I/O??!?  Does that need to be built in, in the minimum purchase > configuration, or merely provision for it externally? > For non graphics, I say 64kb for a 8 bit machine with basic in rom. CP/M 32K. > "Real OS"?  While I don't agree with your specific examples of > inadequacies, I will readily concede that nothing so far is ready for > the title. CP/M was the cats meyow in the 1970's,but there was other systems out like flex for the 6800, or later OS/9 for the 6809. Don't they get a chance too for real OS. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2967261620363633402==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun May 26 20:01:35 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 13:01:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <57d74f16-2c30-4367-9493-7487586bb9f2@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1775574467795201205==" --===============1775574467795201205== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/26/24 11:11, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-05-26 10:56 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I did use a CP/M machine once, but the 8" drive was a bit sticky. > You rap the drive to get it unstuck, but if you rap it too hard > the machine would reset. Fred, just forget it. We belong to a bygone era and there's no sense in trying to explain things to the younger folk. However, perhaps someone can tell me why an HP-41 or TI SR-52 isn't a "personal computer"... --Chuck --===============1775574467795201205==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sun May 26 20:30:12 2024 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 13:30:03 -0700 Message-ID: <5b392c51-8a71-424f-b7b6-f2825c0f2407@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: <57d74f16-2c30-4367-9493-7487586bb9f2@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4236314842779419614==" --===============4236314842779419614== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > You rap the drive to get it unstuck, but if you rap it too hard > the machine would reset. I think I had a co-worker like that once. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Males are biologically driven to go out and hunt giraffes. -- Newt Gingrich --===============4236314842779419614==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 26 20:45:04 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 14:44:52 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0985642609492968643==" --===============0985642609492968643== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-05-26 2:01 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/26/24 11:11, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 2024-05-26 10:56 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> I did use a CP/M machine once, but the 8" drive was a bit sticky. >> You rap the drive to get it unstuck, but if you rap it too hard >> the machine would reset. > > Fred, just forget it. We belong to a bygone era and there's no sense in > trying to explain things to the younger folk. > > However, perhaps someone can tell me why an HP-41 or TI SR-52 isn't a > "personal computer"... > You can't play space invaders on it. > --Chuck Since IBM defined the PC, let's leave it that for what a PC is. The technology was only ready at the 1981 ish time frame, for the personal market. I favor the IBM 1130 as the first personal computer. Most of my nit picking is with having low income, quality software and hardware is hard to find. My personal gripe, is that rather than building a cleaner text OS,every body jumped on having TV video game operating systems, like windows. The mac was better, but I don't think it did a 8x10 full page of text, like the original experimental operating systems. --===============0985642609492968643==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Sun May 26 21:14:43 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 16:14:37 -0500 Message-ID: <880087760.1051987.1716758077346@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6479100140854309662==" --===============6479100140854309662== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable if it only manipulates numeric data, it is a calculator. It must be able to = search, rearrange look up, compare, and display characters. I would have tho= ught that to be obvious. I don'care if it has 99 terabites of high speed mem= ory and does fourier transforms in minus 0 seconds, if it cannot give a text = description of the answer, it is a calculator. Also something about arbritray branches to any location (ok, any executable l= ocation if something has separate code and data memory). 
--Carey
> On 05/26/2024 3:01 PM CDT Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > On 5/26/24 11:11, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2024-05-26 10:56 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > I did use a CP/M machine once, but the 8" drive was a bit sticky. > > You rap the drive to get it unstuck, but if you rap it too hard > > the machine would reset. >=20 > Fred, just forget it. We belong to a bygone era and there's no sense in > trying to explain things to the younger folk. >=20 > However, perhaps someone can tell me why an HP-41 or TI SR-52 isn't a > "personal computer"... >=20 > --Chuck --===============6479100140854309662==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun May 26 22:50:04 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 15:49:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <57d74f16-2c30-4367-9493-7487586bb9f2@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7529372967408018837==" --===============7529372967408018837== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> "Real OS"?  While I don't agree with your specific examples of >> inadequacies, I will readily concede that nothing so far is ready for the >> title. On Sun, 26 May 2024, ben via cctalk wrote: > CP/M was the cats meyow in the 1970's,but there was other systems out like > flex for the 6800, or later OS/9 for the 6809. Don't they get a chance too > for real OS. OS/9 was kinda cool, but my Cocos were kinda inadequate hardware to make full use of it. Randy Cook tried to make a "real OS" for the TRS80. But, he never FINISHED [nor documented] TRSDOS, nor VTOS. When LSI commissioned LDOS, as the finishing of TRSDOS/VTOS, they stripped out a lot of the "real OS" features that Randy Cook had intended, but never finished implementing. But, when Radio-shack licensed LDOS, to be TRSDOS 6.0, Randy Cook finally started to receive royalties. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7529372967408018837==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun May 26 23:05:39 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 16:05:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5b392c51-8a71-424f-b7b6-f2825c0f2407@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4352943528168280715==" --===============4352943528168280715== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> You rap the drive to get it unstuck, but if you rap it too hard >> the machine would reset. On Sun, 26 May 2024, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > I think I had a co-worker like that once. The problem with trying to implement percussive maintenance with cow- orkers, is that the force needed to unstick them is likely to be more than that which would reboot. --===============4352943528168280715==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun May 26 23:27:33 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 16:27:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <880087760.1051987.1716758077346@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4625591916826885577==" --===============4625591916826885577== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/26/24 14:14, CAREY SCHUG wrote: > if it only manipulates numeric data, it is a calculator. It must be able t= o search, rearrange look up, compare, and display characters. I would have t= hought that to be obvious. I don'care if it has 99 terabites of high speed m= emory and does fourier transforms in minus 0 seconds, if it cannot give a tex= t description of the answer, it is a calculator. >=20 > Also something about arbritray branches to any location (ok, any executable= location if something has separate code and data memory). HP-41 has an alpha-numeric display, and keyboard, and is Turing-complete. Really a phenomenal little gizmo. Read up on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-41C --Chuck --===============4625591916826885577==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon May 27 00:09:18 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 19:09:05 -0500 Message-ID: <6e622e09-8fad-48ca-9f2c-9ddcb0f7e7fb@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <880087760.1051987.1716758077346@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3998875282653869096==" --===============3998875282653869096== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i'm sorry but you are misinformed about the HP-41C Calculator. The HP-41 was the first calculator that had Alpha-Numerics.=C2=A0 It could=20 very well give text descriptions, text prompts and even manipulate=20 text.=C2=A0 It also had a full goto and gosub to alphanumeric labels. It had a very sophisticated programming language that could be user=20 enhanced in both user (FOCAL [No Relation to DEC's Focal]) language and=20 machine language. The user community enhanced the user language through the use of=20 "Synthetic Programming".=C2=A0 This is creating additional user commands not = originally implemented by HP. It came with four expansion slots built into it for RAM, ROM and=20 peripherals. It supported several different file systems in both RAM and digital media. There was a forth interpreter available for it as well. Here is a list of some of the peripherals available for it (I know there=20 are way more than this list): Direct Plug In: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Magnetic Card Reader =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Bar Code Reader =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 20 Column Thermal Printer =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 HI-IL (2 wire network) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 EEPROM Box for Machine Code =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RAM Box for Machine Code =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Additional Program Memory =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Extended Memory =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ROM Module for user code and machine code (both from HP a= nd user=20 written). HP-IL Peripherals =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 20 Column Thermal Printer =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 80 Column Ink Jet Printer =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Digital Magnetic Tape Drive =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3 1/2" Floppy Disk Drive =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RS-232 Interface =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IEE-488 (GPIB) Interface =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Video Interface (40 column, 80 column, graphics) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 HP-IL Interface for Epson MX-80 dot matrix printer =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Digital Multimeter =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Frequency Counter =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 20 Channel Data Acquisition Box The CPU had a 10 bit instruction word with a 56 bit data word.=C2=A0 With a=20 Harvard Architecture (separate RAM and ROM address spaces).=C2=A0 The RAM=20 address space was 8192 8 bit bytes.=C2=A0 The ROM address space was 65536 10 = bit words.=C2=A0 With paging the machine code address space was expanded to=20 192K maximum) That hardly sounds like just a calculator to me.=C2=A0 It could be called the= =20 first Pocket PC. On 5/26/2024 4:14 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > if it only manipulates numeric data, it is a calculator. It must be able t= o search, rearrange look up, compare, and display characters. I would have t= hought that to be obvious. I don'care if it has 99 terabites of high speed m= emory and does fourier transforms in minus 0 seconds, if it cannot give a tex= t description of the answer, it is a calculator. > > Also something about arbritray branches to any location (ok, any executable= location if something has separate code and data memory). > > 
--Carey
> >> On 05/26/2024 3:01 PM CDT Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >> >> =20 >> On 5/26/24 11:11, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2024-05-26 10:56 a.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> I did use a CP/M machine once, but the 8" drive was a bit sticky. >>> You rap the drive to get it unstuck, but if you rap it too hard >>> the machine would reset. >> Fred, just forget it. We belong to a bygone era and there's no sense in >> trying to explain things to the younger folk. >> >> However, perhaps someone can tell me why an HP-41 or TI SR-52 isn't a >> "personal computer"... >> >> --Chuck --===============3998875282653869096==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon May 27 00:15:52 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 19:15:44 -0500 Message-ID: <632d3a2c-7943-4afa-b838-d9b77e61cbc3@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7576922236629772126==" --===============7576922236629772126== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OS/9 was an incredible operating system for an 8 bit machine.  Level 1 was a bit limited. But level II,  which could address a megabyte of memory or more, supported multiple tasks, users and intelligent peripherals.  It supported applications in ROM and RAM and made full use of all of the advanced capabilities of the 6809 CPU. It was a little bit of a memory hog because code written for it had to be written as position independent code.  On the 6809 this could take up more RAM because some of the relative instructions required 16 bits or more to decode. On 5/26/2024 5:49 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> "Real OS"?  While I don't agree with your specific examples of >>> inadequacies, I will readily concede that nothing so far is ready >>> for the title. > > On Sun, 26 May 2024, ben via cctalk wrote: >> CP/M was the cats meyow in the 1970's,but there was other systems out >> like >> flex for the 6800, or later OS/9 for the 6809. Don't they get a >> chance too for real OS. > > OS/9 was kinda cool, but my Cocos were kinda inadequate hardware to > make full use of it. > > > Randy Cook tried to make a "real OS" for the TRS80.  But, he never > FINISHED [nor documented] TRSDOS, nor VTOS.  When LSI commissioned > LDOS, as the finishing of TRSDOS/VTOS, they stripped out a lot of the > "real OS" features that Randy Cook had intended, but never finished > implementing. > But, when Radio-shack licensed LDOS, to be TRSDOS 6.0, Randy Cook > finally started to receive royalties. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7576922236629772126==-- From rickb@bensene.com Mon May 27 00:30:38 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 00:30:21 +0000 Message-ID: <710820c15aed46f6b39237784bb6d193@bensene.com> In-Reply-To: <880087760.1051987.1716758077346@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7546153386517047327==" --===============7546153386517047327== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carey S. writes: > If it only manipulates numeric data, it is a calculator. It must be able t= o search,=20 > rearrange look up, compare, and display characters. I would have thought t= hat to be > obvious. ...if it cannot give a text description of the answer, it = is a=20 > calculator. > Also something about arbitrary branches to any location (ok, any executable= location if=20 > something has separate code and data memory). So, are the HP 9820, HP 9830, Tektronix 31, Tektronix 4051, and the Texas Ins= truments=20 SR-60 calculators or computers? All of them were at least initially marketed as calculators(except perhaps th= e 4051, but it could definitely serve as a calculator, though massive overkil= l). This was because if someone submitted a capital equipment request for a "comp= uter", bean counters would immediately reject it, while calculators would sai= l right through. =20 Why? =20 Because computers were big complicated machines that required expensive, brai= ny people to support, and they needed all kinds of "extras" like special powe= r, air conditioning, storage systems, printers, terminals, maintenance contr= acts, installation fees, and other stuff that cost even more money. At least= , that was the mentality, be it right or wrong. It has been historically doc= umented as such in numerous books written about that period in time. Calculators... well, you just took 'em out of the box, set them on the desk, = plugged them in and off you go. Didn=E2=80=99t really matter if it was a fou= r-banger, or something like an HP 9830(if all you wanted to do was calculate = with it). With machines like this, engineers and scientists could get themselves a "com= puter" without the fuss of having to say it was a computer on their equipment= request. All of the above devices could be programmed to manipulate and display and/or= print alpha-numeric and special characters, They could be programmed to sear= ch, compare, find, re-arrange, sort, combine, and manipulate numerical and no= n-numerical data. They all also had the ability to branch to an arbitrary location within a pro= gram, though off the top of my head, I think that all of the machines except = the 4051(EXEC) (and maybe the HP 9830, I can't remember off the top of my he= ad - it may have required a special ROM module to be added in order to do tha= t) didn't have the ability to branch to arbitrary data in memory and execute = it. All of the named machines certainly could qualify as a computer, right? =20 At the same time, each of them could have a mathematical expression (some eve= n with variables) entered as it would be written on paper, without any progra= mming, and they would display/print the numeric result after pressing a singl= e key to terminate the entry. These expressions could include functions such= as logarithms, trig, roots, exponentials, etc., just like a calculator. =20 Perhaps that really does make them calculators? Why did Digital Equipment Corporation brand their computers as "PDP"? It was= an acronym for "Programmed Data Processor". A "PDP" isn't a computer for al= l bean counters might know. The point of this designation (which was only the= PDP part, not its expansion) was to allow capital requests to get through th= e approval process without the fussy "computer" word in the request. =20 You'd just write down "PDP 11/70" on the request. As long as the money was = in your budget, the worst that might happen is someone from finance may ring = you up and ask you "What's a PDP 11/70?", and you could say, "Oh, it's a real= ly fancy calculator" (not a lie), and they'd go away happy, and your request = would be granted, even if it amounted to tens of thousands (or more) dollars.= =20 Weeks later, you'd have an really powerful Programmed Data Processor show up = at the loading dock, no one really the wiser. This is probably exaggerating the reality a bit, but the true point of the PD= P designation was to make it easier for engineers, scientists, and anyone els= e that needed a real computer but had a bureaucracy to go through before they= could get one. Perhaps the distinction noted isn't quite as clear cut as indicated. -Rick PS: Carey, I am working on a response to your message from yesterday, it's ju= st taking a while, hopefully it'll arrive to you later today or tomorrow some= time. -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalculatormuseum.com --===============7546153386517047327==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Mon May 27 00:30:41 2024 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 00:30:26 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <15eb7a0b-8d0f-4a12-8a8b-c91764bbfdea@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3248904213583503400==" --===============3248904213583503400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not claiming it was the first personal computer but is was my first perso= nal computer. It was within a year or two of just about any other first perso= nal computer. It was a Poly88 with ROM based tiny basic. I had a keyboard, I think I got fr= om Mike Quin's as well as a Singer typing terminal that I converted into a se= rial printer. I used a transformer powered TV as a monitor and used a cassette recorder as = mass storage. It was more personal than other machine as it was my personal creation after = several modifications to enhance it. I learned a lot about computers and how = they worked from that machine. Dwight --===============3248904213583503400==-- From rickb@bensene.com Mon May 27 00:40:43 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 00:40:36 +0000 Message-ID: <1aa5c5351893416fbca34601614e735e@bensene.com> In-Reply-To: <6e622e09-8fad-48ca-9f2c-9ddcb0f7e7fb@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2029387384158770026==" --===============2029387384158770026== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike Katz wrote: > I'm sorry but you are misinformed about the HP-41C Calculator. > The HP-41 was the first calculator that had Alpha-Numerics. That is not true. =20 Technically, out of the box, it was the HP 9830. Yes, it wasn't a handheld c= alculator, and it didn't run on batteries(it was big and quite heavy and requ= ired standard 115V AC power), but it had an alpha-numeric display(and optiona= lly a printer) that could be programmatically written to, and the machine cou= ld accept alpha-numeric input and process it as such. The HP 9820 had an alphanumeric display, and could be programmed to generate = alphanumeric prompts on the display, but I don't believe (off the top of my h= ead, I could be wrong) it had the capability to accept and process alpha-nume= rics out of the box. The HP 9820 and 9830 were introduced in June of 1972. Seven years before the= HP-41. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, OR USA --===============2029387384158770026==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon May 27 00:48:15 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Black Apple (Was: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 17:48:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <710820c15aed46f6b39237784bb6d193@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7243881784171809446==" --===============7243881784171809446== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 27 May 2024, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > This was because if someone submitted a capital equipment request for a > "computer", bean counters would immediately reject it, while calculators > would sail right through. > Why? >> Because computers were big complicated machines that required expensive, > brainy people to support, and they needed all kinds of "extras" like > special power, air conditioning, storage systems, printers, terminals, > maintenance contracts, installation fees, and other stuff that cost even > more money. At least, that was the mentality, be it right or wrong. > It has been historically documented as such in numerous books written > about that period in time. Does anybody here have personal experience with the "Black Apple"? I don't but read about it with interest at the time. Apple cut a deal to market some machines through Bell and Howell ("Hell and bowel"?) The machine was an ordinary Apple, with a black case, non-removable power cord, and latches, instead of velcro, for the lid, all to reduce pilferage of parts. Educators were having serious difficulty getting purchase requests for computers through school district purchasing departments. However, when the purchase request said "Bell And Howell equipment", it would sail right through! Around the same time, Apple wanted to "give" a machine to each and every school and take a tax deduction. But, the IRS reasoned that if they let Apple do it, then every other computer company would also. It fell apart in the negotiations about the size of the tax deduction; Apple wanted to deduct retail, or at least dealer price; the IRS said that they could only deduct the price of the components. (not teven the labor that Apple paid for assembly) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7243881784171809446==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon May 27 01:10:44 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 18:10:33 -0700 Message-ID: <81c70583-4faf-41cb-8f72-0645942ad6b1@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941223EB9AE1466122E3A20A3F02=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5079669503716124203==" --===============5079669503716124203== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/26/24 17:30, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm not claiming it was the first personal computer but is was my first per= sonal computer. It was within a year or two of just about any other first per= sonal computer. > It was a Poly88 with ROM based tiny basic. I had a keyboard, I think I got = from Mike Quin's as well as a Singer typing terminal that I converted into a = serial printer. > I used a transformer powered TV as a monitor and used a cassette recorder a= s mass storage. > It was more personal than other machine as it was my personal creation afte= r several modifications to enhance it. I learned a lot about computers and ho= w they worked from that machine. I built a TVT and drove a hot-chassis all-tube Zenith portable TV. A little tricky when it came to getting the AC plugs the right way. Back then, US AC plugs were not polarized. --===============5079669503716124203==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon May 27 01:15:59 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 18:15:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <81c70583-4faf-41cb-8f72-0645942ad6b1@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8157719383127112286==" --===============8157719383127112286== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 26 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/26/24 17:30, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> I'm not claiming it was the first personal computer but is was my first pe= rsonal computer. It was within a year or two of just about any other first pe= rsonal computer. >> It was a Poly88 with ROM based tiny basic. I had a keyboard, I think I got= from Mike Quin's as well as a Singer typing terminal that I converted into a= serial printer. >> I used a transformer powered TV as a monitor and used a cassette recorder = as mass storage. >> It was more personal than other machine as it was my personal creation aft= er several modifications to enhance it. I learned a lot about computers and h= ow they worked from that machine. > > I built a TVT and drove a hot-chassis all-tube Zenith portable TV. A > little tricky when it came to getting the AC plugs the right way. Back > then, US AC plugs were not polarized. . . . and, even when they were, at least half of the polarized outlets=20 were wired backwards --===============8157719383127112286==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon May 27 01:20:58 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs in home vs businesses (70s/80s) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 18:20:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3e556a56-f105-40a1-8f39-bf793c823ded@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8360359066812961539==" --===============8360359066812961539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/25/24 22:03, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >>> I think it was indeed the way to tell NEC V20 and other x86 chips apart: >>> good if you wanted to make seamless use of the 8080 emulation mode). >> >> Is this something you've actually verified? Seems to be a bit of an >> urban legend. I can test it on a V20 system if you don't have one. > > You mean the 8080 emulation mode or the CPU detection via AAD/AAM? In my V20/V30 emulator, I first filtered out the 80186, 80286+ and then ran the following snippet. > mov dx,sp > push cs > mov cl,255 > > ;-----------------------------------------------------------------------; > ; On the NEC V20, the following 2 instructions are interpreted as ; > ; ; > ; clr1 cl,cl ; > ; ; > ; with cl = 0ffh, this results in cl = 07fh (bit 7 is cleared). ; > ; on the Intel 8088/8086/80186/80286 chips, however, the code ; > ; is interpreted as written, resulting in cl remaining the same. ; > ; ; > db 0fh ; pop cs, but masm doesn't like it ; > adc al,cl ; > ;-----------------------------------------------------------------------; > > mov sp,dx ; fix stack > test cl,cl > jns Initialize4 ; if v20 This from my 1988 backup files. --Chuck --===============8360359066812961539==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon May 27 04:07:22 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 05:07:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1aa5c5351893416fbca34601614e735e@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8841121701811925663==" --===============8841121701811925663== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 1:40=E2=80=AFAM Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > Mike Katz wrote: > > > I'm sorry but you are misinformed about the HP-41C Calculator. > > > The HP-41 was the first calculator that had Alpha-Numerics. > > That is not true. > > Technically, out of the box, it was the HP 9830. Yes, it wasn't a handheld= calculator, and it didn't run on batteries(it was big and quite heavy and re= quired standard 115V AC power), but it had an alpha-numeric display(and optio= nally a printer) that could be programmatically written to, and the machine c= ould accept alpha-numeric input and process it as such. Could it? The 9830 could certainly use fixed text strings to prompt for input and label output but I thought that to manipulate text in memory you needed the 'String Variables' add-on ROM module. > > The HP 9820 had an alphanumeric display, and could be programmed to generat= e alphanumeric prompts on the display, but I don't believe (off the top of my= head, I could be wrong) it had the capability to accept and process alpha-nu= merics out of the box. All the 98x0 machines, even the 9810, could be interfaced to a paper tape punch and reader and could read/punch the tape one byte at a time So : Type some text on a Model 33ASR and produce a paper tape of it. Read that tape one character at a time into a 98x0, manipulate the data, and punch the output Feed the resulting paper tape back into the Model 33ASR and print it. Is that handlng text on a calculator? -tony --===============8841121701811925663==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Mon May 27 09:48:04 2024 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 05:47:54 -0400 Message-ID: <28f7600a-e9ab-4b36-ad17-a5724b1b2d58@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1170058235544659734==" --===============1170058235544659734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-05-26 12:30, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 4:26 AM Glen Slick wrote: > Anyway, if the SCM90448 EPROMs for your M8189 KDF11-B are actually > Motorola MC68764 / MC68766 EPROMs, I have one board with MCM68766 and two boards with SCM90448 > I have BP Microsystems device > programmers that can handle those. I have programmed some of those > myself for my own M8189 KDF11-B. Excellent! > Are you looking to get set up with > the 23-380E4 / 23-381E4 M8189-BG firmware? Yup! Actually hoping for: MicroPDP-11/23 ROM v1.1 (23-453E4 and 23-454E4 > Those Motorola EPROMs require a Vpp of 25 volts, which is probably why > a lot of modem device programmers don't handle them. OK! --===============1170058235544659734==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Mon May 27 10:20:23 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 03:20:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <28f7600a-e9ab-4b36-ad17-a5724b1b2d58@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6305908363211387048==" --===============6305908363211387048== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 27, 2024, 2:47=E2=80=AFAM emanuel stiebler wro= te: > On 2024-05-26 12:30, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 4:26=E2=80=AFAM Glen Slick wrote: > > > Anyway, if the SCM90448 EPROMs for your M8189 KDF11-B are actually > > Motorola MC68764 / MC68766 EPROMs, > > I have one board with MCM68766 and two boards with SCM90448 > > > I have BP Microsystems device > > programmers that can handle those. I have programmed some of those > > myself for my own M8189 KDF11-B. > > Excellent! > > > Are you looking to get set up with > > the 23-380E4 / 23-381E4 M8189-BG firmware? > > Yup! Actually hoping for: > MicroPDP-11/23 ROM v1.1 (23-453E4 and 23-454E4 > Right, that is the final version as far as I know, and images are available here: https://web.archive.org/web/20160321035043/http://avitech.com.au/pdp-11-03/bd= v11-rom-upgrade.html I'll have to check my M8189. I might not have had images for that version available at the time I upgraded mine. I wonder if "SCM90448" is just a customer specific label for a standard MC68766 part. --===============6305908363211387048==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 27 11:48:41 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 13:48:28 +0200 Message-ID: <9977853f-c745-3cbf-c824-58932e6ff297@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3747739220628124774==" --===============3747739220628124774== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 24 May 2024, ??? wrote: > There was a 4004 based computer developed in 1972 that was released before > the Micral called the Comstar 4. It's not very well known but it was > written about in the ACM and the Computer History Museum has a copy of > their sales manual Interesting system. But it seems as it was designed as an industrial and process control system, not much for individuals as a general purpose "personal computer". Christian --===============3747739220628124774==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 27 12:10:19 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ANITA ((was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 14:10:10 +0200 Message-ID: <865d6e3-ca4d-7d42-d2bc-917f8c8e01c@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <96cc3d959f5a4c8e854b934eb1b9e45d@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6417056963089840305==" --===============6417056963089840305== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 25 May 2024, Rick Bensene wrote: > ..and anyone who has restored one knows that the vast majority of the > back-to-back selenium diode packages have to be replaced with something > else as they no longer function properly. Ambient moisture kills > Selenium as a semiconductor, and even though these devices were packaged > to avoid that to some degree, after 60 years, stuff happens. We had replaced (or better, bypassed) several of the rectifiers with 1N4007. But most of them are still ok in our machines. I guess we have about five Mk8 here, some are in quite bad shape. The biggest problems within the Anita is caused by the high-value carbon resistors. Especially the 20 megohms go bad/high(er) resistance, so the thyratrons (cold-cathode relay tubes) don't ignite reliably. > Interesting to note that many ANITA Mk8 machines have a single > transistor in them. It's in the power supply. The designers were No, it is not in the power supply. The transistor is used to invert and drive a control signal (called HIGHWAY OUT in the schematics), going to the cathodes of the individual register state drivers (the ECC 81 at the back of the machine). All Mk8 should have this transistor. I guess that the designers discovered some issues and needed a quick and simple fix. > comfortable enough using these relatively fussy gas-discharge logic > devices as digital devices(they had developed machines like Colossus They are designed as digital devices, hence called cold-cathode relay tubes. All thyratrons act digitally, there is only an on and an off state, both very distinct. Christian --===============6417056963089840305==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 27 12:13:36 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 14:13:28 +0200 Message-ID: <7092f8d9-a662-2c2-e85f-c8cc2915496b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <171660785376.4006402.15076876496430779643@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7513778170544718789==" --===============7513778170544718789== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 25 May 2024, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> First S100 buss system > > Originally called "Roberts Buss" the Atair expansion buss was used by > many systems that followed, and not wanting to use their competitors > name, the buss became known as "S100" (presumably System buss with > 100 pins) As a non-native speaker: What is the difference between buss/buses(pl.) and bus/busses(pl.)? I mean, you don't say omnibuss, do you? Christian --===============7513778170544718789==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 27 12:17:39 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 14:17:31 +0200 Message-ID: <195e5363-efb8-446e-28d6-6727dc943f@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0887698259103737360==" --===============0887698259103737360== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 24 May 2024, Bill Degnan wrote: > With respect, I have studied the 1956 Royal McBee LGP-23 (and later -30) at What is an LGP-23? I know the LGP-21, the transistorised and slower successor of the LGP-30 which came out later. Christian --===============0887698259103737360==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 27 12:23:11 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 14:23:03 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5e128a31-c54f-40a4-aff7-d9a4e4e7bb52@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2387595382280407472==" --===============2387595382280407472== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from > competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp > wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires > special power wiring cannot be "personal" I I were King of the World, I'd immediately ban everything non-standard like 110/120V, 208V two-phase and 60Hz ish as well as everything non-metric/SI based ;-))))) > So, for example, the PB-250 qualifies; the IBM 1130 does not. The The IBM 1130 *does* run on a simple wall power outlet if you don't have the 1133 I/O multiplexer. Christian --===============2387595382280407472==-- From nadav.eiron@gmail.com Mon May 27 12:25:36 2024 From: Nadav Eiron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 05:25:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7624661330157144474==" --===============7624661330157144474== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For programming Motorola EPROMs for the KDF-11B I had very good luck building and using this programmer: https://www.mattmillman.com/projects/hveprom-project/an-easy-to-build-program= mer-for-2704-2708-mcm68764-mcm68766-eproms/ On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 3:20=E2=80=AFAM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, May 27, 2024, 2:47=E2=80=AFAM emanuel stiebler w= rote: > > > On 2024-05-26 12:30, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 4:26=E2=80=AFAM Glen Slick > wrote: > > > > > Anyway, if the SCM90448 EPROMs for your M8189 KDF11-B are actually > > > Motorola MC68764 / MC68766 EPROMs, > > > > I have one board with MCM68766 and two boards with SCM90448 > > > > > I have BP Microsystems device > > > programmers that can handle those. I have programmed some of those > > > myself for my own M8189 KDF11-B. > > > > Excellent! > > > > > Are you looking to get set up with > > > the 23-380E4 / 23-381E4 M8189-BG firmware? > > > > Yup! Actually hoping for: > > MicroPDP-11/23 ROM v1.1 (23-453E4 and 23-454E4 > > > > Right, that is the final version as far as I know, and images are available > here: > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20160321035043/http://avitech.com.au/pdp-11-03/= bdv11-rom-upgrade.html > > I'll have to check my M8189. I might not have had images for that version > available at the time I upgraded mine. > > I wonder if "SCM90448" is just a customer specific label for a standard > MC68766 part. > --===============7624661330157144474==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 27 12:27:34 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 14:27:27 +0200 Message-ID: <3f92687-6259-d9e4-6ac1-8396f3a3e6eb@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <686a9f2e-c784-4dae-b8e3-f5e4985b09f3@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4714135412308819065==" --===============4714135412308819065== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, I'll refine it for the international crowd. Anything that > requires over 1800 VA to run isn't a "personal computer" That's about 8 > amps for the 220 volt world. Why the limit of 8 amps? The standard fusing for a single-phase outlet here is 16 amps (230V/16A), sometimes 10A. So yes, we can run 3,6kW devices from a single outlet (i.e. water boilers, ovens, cloth dryers ...) Christian --===============4714135412308819065==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 27 12:28:55 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 14:28:49 +0200 Message-ID: <5667a95e-4d52-b150-4bd7-d8ad30b1919a@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7144983793949135042==" --===============7144983793949135042== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 25 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote: > Now that is an interesting refinement.  Limiting to 1800 VA, most likely > eliminates almost anything vacuum tube based. The LGP-30 needs less power. Christian --===============7144983793949135042==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Mon May 27 12:37:47 2024 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 05:37:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3f92687-6259-d9e4-6ac1-8396f3a3e6eb@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2788903782669995117==" --===============2788903782669995117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 16amps where? Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 27, 2024, at 5:27 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Okay, I'll refine it for the international crowd. Anything that >> requires over 1800 VA to run isn't a "personal computer" That's about 8 >> amps for the 220 volt world. >=20 > Why the limit of 8 amps? > The standard fusing for a single-phase outlet here is 16 amps (230V/16A), s= ometimes 10A. So yes, we can run 3,6kW devices from a single outlet (i.e. wat= er boilers, ovens, cloth dryers ...) >=20 > Christian >=20 --===============2788903782669995117==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 27 13:07:35 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 07:07:19 -0600 Message-ID: <75a6d7d0-04df-41b8-9f2a-ad72ecb303bf@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5299152724967803132==" --===============5299152724967803132== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-05-27 6:23 a.m., Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from >> competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp >> wall receptacle.   The rationale being that anything that requires >> special power wiring cannot be "personal" > > I I were King of the World, I'd immediately ban everything non-standard > like 110/120V, 208V two-phase and 60Hz ish as well as everything > non-metric/SI based ;-))))) I would ban the eruo and the metric system. Bring back British rule. Long live the KING. >> So, for example, the PB-250 qualifies; the IBM 1130 does not.  The > > The IBM 1130 *does* run on a simple wall power outlet if you don't have > the 1133 I/O multiplexer. > > Christian I/O motors can be adapted I suspect for phase and power. Remember not needing a raised floor and AC was big selling point of the IBM 1130 in the 1960's. Four-Phase Systems, had a impressive system in the 1970's. One 24 bit box with up to 32 terminals in 1974. The IBM 1130 was retired around then,and it was good time for 24 bit computers. --===============5299152724967803132==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Mon May 27 13:13:20 2024 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 09:13:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9977853f-c745-3cbf-c824-58932e6ff297@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0653722807030559465==" --===============0653722807030559465== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Micral N was developed for process control as well. The only difference was that Comstar was purchased by Warmer Swasey and it was integrated to their systems so they never marketed their systems outside of that market. On Mon, May 27, 2024, 7:48 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 24 May 2024, ??? wrote: > > There was a 4004 based computer developed in 1972 that was released > before > > the Micral called the Comstar 4. It's not very well known but it was > > written about in the ACM and the Computer History Museum has a copy of > > their sales manual > > Interesting system. But it seems as it was designed as an industrial and > process control system, not much for individuals as a general purpose > "personal computer". > > Christian > --===============0653722807030559465==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Mon May 27 13:54:40 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] just curious about eproms [was: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 08:54:35 -0500 Message-ID: <872266709.1059822.1716818076016@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0951100547839774927==" --===============0951100547839774927== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just curioius, as a much less techy person, are there sets of eproms that are= compatible for reading, but just require a different programming regimen? C= ould the OP have used a different eprom that is easier to program? If not, is the limitation pinout, so a header swapping pins could let a diffe= rent eprom be used? 
--Carey
--===============0951100547839774927==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon May 27 14:18:13 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: just curious about eproms [was: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 10:17:52 -0400 Message-ID: <3164799f-47f8-4bf6-9213-19be3a8929e7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <872266709.1059822.1716818076016@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0949613333550428577==" --===============0949613333550428577== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-05-27 09:54, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > Just curioius, as a much less techy person, are there sets of eproms that a= re compatible for reading, but just require a different programming regimen? = Could the OP have used a different eprom that is easier to program? > > If not, is the limitation pinout, so a header swapping pins could let a dif= ferent eprom be used? > > 
--Carey
Yes, there are EPROMs, EEPROMS, and PROMs of different technologies that=20 are pin-compatible. But you have to be careful about access times! When=20 programmed, they may appear to read the same on the programmer, but=20 access times may be different.=C2=A0 For example on the DEC MXV11 board you=20 can mount both bipolar and E-PROMs, but the access times are wildly=20 different.=C2=A0 I had a client that brought a board to me that would not run= =20 a standard bootstrap after he copied it from purchased PROMs.. The=20 problem was that when you bought the boot ROMs from DEC, they were=20 bipolar (82S series I think).=C2=A0 He used EPROMS with many times slower=20 access speed.=C2=A0 The problem was that the PROMs were being read at bus=20 speed and the data was being presented to the bus way after the CPU had=20 tried to read it! cheers, Nigel --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============0949613333550428577==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Mon May 27 14:25:31 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: just curious about eproms [was: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 07:25:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <872266709.1059822.1716818076016@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4827930659607355952==" --===============4827930659607355952== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 27, 2024, 6:54=E2=80=AFAM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > Just curioius, as a much less techy person, are there sets of eproms that > are compatible for reading, but just require a different programming > regimen? Could the OP have used a different eprom that is easier to > program? > > If not, is the limitation pinout, so a header swapping pins could let a > different eprom be used? > > Just curioius, as a much less techy person, are there sets of eproms that are compatible for reading, but just require a different programming regimen? In general, yes, EPROMs of a given capacity usually all of the same pinout, but different device manufacturer specific programming algorithms. For a given capacity, a device manufacturer might even have multiple parts of that capacity with different algorithms. For example, an original version of a device, then a later A-suffix version with improved specifications and a different programming algorithm. (In earlier days there were some incompatible 16K-bit and 32K-bit EPROM pinouts. For example, be careful with TI TMS2516/TMS2716 TMS2532/TMS2732 EPROMs). > Could the OP have used a different eprom that is easier to program? In this case, the common 64K-bit 8Kx8 EPROM generic 2764 pinout has 28 pins. The Motorola MC68764 / MC68766 are uncommon 64K-bit EPROMs with only 24 pins, which I believe matches a 64K- bit mask ROM pinout instead. That limits the choices for drop in replacements. --===============4827930659607355952==-- From ats@offog.org Mon May 27 14:27:18 2024 From: Adam Sampson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 14:43:28 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7092f8d9-a662-2c2-e85f-c8cc2915496b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2313290614395634031==" --===============2313290614395634031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christian Corti via cctalk writes: > What is the difference between buss/buses(pl.) and bus/busses(pl.)? > I mean, you don't say omnibuss, do you? No difference -- they're variant spellings of the same word. From the examples given in the OED, it looks like "buss" was originally the more common spelling when people first started shortening "omnibus". It might have been influenced by older words in English pronounced the same way, e.g. "buss" meaning "to kiss", or "a buss" being a type of fishing boat. Both spellings were in use by the time "bus[s]-bar" was invented, which is where the computer sense comes from. We wouldn't call a vehicle a "buss" any more, but both spellings survive in electronics. -- Adam Sampson --===============2313290614395634031==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Mon May 27 15:35:10 2024 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 17:28:27 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7668224219641764479==" --===============7668224219641764479== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents, please be aware of the WSI 57C49 Eprom, 8Kx8 in a 24 pin DIP It can go low as 25nS access time. Note that addresslines A10,A11 and A12 are swapped, so the contents needs to = be moved accordingly. I used the C program below to create replacements for some Tektronix 4052 ROMS Jos #include #include /* =C2=A0* radapt =C2=A0* =C2=A0* quick hack to transpose rom inages from mk36000 to wsi57c49 =C2=A0* These are pincombatible except for A10, A11 and A12 =C2=A0* =C2=A0*/ #define=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 K8 8192 #define=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 K1 1024 unsigned char in[K8], out[K8]; void move(int a, int b) { int i; printf("%d %d\n",a,b); for (i=3D0;i To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 17:53:15 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9154289234872182744==" --===============9154289234872182744== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 16amps where? In Europe? At least in Germany 16 amps is standard. The Schuko outlets and plugs are rated for this current. As an example, the fuse box in my appartment is splitting up the three input phases (63A each) from the main distribution panel to 3x 3 circuits/16A each. Christian --===============9154289234872182744==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon May 27 19:56:14 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 15:55:57 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5991272939730555337==" --===============5991272939730555337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's also the unusual, little known but readily available and programmable TMS2564 (Vpp also 25V, alas); it (sort of) stayed with the original ROM/EPROM pinouts when everyone else switched to the JEDEC standard as more pins became needed. It's a 28 pin 8K x 8 EPROM, but the upper 24 pins are pin-compatible with the MCM68764/6 and many 24 pin 8K x 8 ROMS (BTW, what's the difference between the 68764 and the 68766?) Of course you need the room for the extra 4 pins hanging off the end and a jumper to the extra chip selects, but it's definitely an option, especially as the Moto parts are getting scarce. I believe there's also a Hitachi (?) version equivalent to the 6876x but I can't find the number at the moment; probably even more obscure... m On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 11:35=E2=80=AFAM jos via cctalk wrote: > > > > Gents, please be aware of the WSI 57C49 Eprom, 8Kx8 in a 24 pin DIP > It can go low as 25nS access time. > > Note that addresslines A10,A11 and A12 are swapped, so the contents needs t= o be moved accordingly. > I used the C program below to create replacements for some Tektronix 4052 R= OMS > > > Jos > > > > > > #include > #include > > /* > * radapt > * > * quick hack to transpose rom inages from mk36000 to wsi57c49 > * These are pincombatible except for A10, A11 and A12 > * > */ > > #define K8 8192 > #define K1 1024 > > unsigned char in[K8], out[K8]; > > void move(int a, int b) > { int i; > printf("%d %d\n",a,b); > for (i=3D0;i out[b*K1+i]=3Din[a*K1+i]; > > } > > > int main(int argc,char *argv[]) > { > int i=3D0; > > int c; > FILE *fptr; > > > > fptr=3Dfopen(argv[1],"rb"); > { if (!fptr) > printf("Unable to open file %s\n",argv[1]); > else > { while( (c=3Dfgetc(fptr)) !=3DEOF ) > { in[i]=3Dc; i++;} > fclose(fptr); > if (i!=3DK8) > { printf("incorrect input file size, must be %d, not %d\n",K8= ,i); > exit(-1); } > move(0,0); > move(1,2); > move(2,4); > move(3,6); > move(4,1); > move(5,3); > move(6,5); > move(7,7); > fptr=3Dfopen("out.bin","w"); > for (i=3D0;i fputc(out[i],fptr); > fclose(fptr); > printf("Output file out.bin written\nmv out.bin %s\n",argv[1]); > }; > }; > } > > --===============5991272939730555337==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Mon May 27 20:51:29 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 13:51:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1636167718413849675==" --===============1636167718413849675== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 27, 2024, 12:56=E2=80=AFPM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > (BTW, what's the > difference between the 68764 and the 68766?) > From what I can tell from a quick look at the datasheets, on the 68764 the /E pin is both a low power mode pin and an output enable pin, while on the 68766 the /G pin in just an output enable pin. So there might be less average power consumed when using the 68764, but the 68766 data output valid from /G might be quicker than the 68764 data output valid from /E if the address lines are stable earlier than /E or /G are asserted. --===============1636167718413849675==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue May 28 00:20:48 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 20:20:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8985714168099030712==" --===============8985714168099030712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the info! Missed that the several times I looked at that. On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 4:51=E2=80=AFPM Glen Slick w= rote: > > On Mon, May 27, 2024, 12:56=E2=80=AFPM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> (BTW, what's the >> difference between the 68764 and the 68766?) > > > From what I can tell from a quick look at the datasheets, on the 68764 the = /E pin is both a low power mode pin and an output enable pin, while on the 68= 766 the /G pin in just an output enable pin. > > So there might be less average power consumed when using the 68764, but the= 68766 data output valid from /G might be quicker than the 68764 data output = valid from /E if the address lines are stable earlier than /E or /G are asser= ted. > --===============8985714168099030712==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue May 28 08:08:17 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 10:08:03 +0200 Message-ID: <426327e0-23e0-842a-6c52-89c61710a8fb@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8998503823645376897==" --===============8998503823645376897== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Forwarded from Martin Bishop as some anti spam mechanism rejects his posts] -----Original Message----- From: Martin Bishop Sent: 27 May 2024 23:57 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer In the UK the domestic wiring norm is 13A plugs on a 32A ring at 230V : ~3 kW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#BS_1363_(Type_G) My domestic computer supplies are wired out on BS4343 (Euro /=20 Industrial) plugs and sockets 16A on a 32A ring at 230V : 3k68 VA. https://www.edwardes.co.uk/categories/industrial-euro-plugs---sockets-bs4343 IMHO, based on measurement, the BS4343 outlets have much better earth=20 conductivity than the BS1361 Gs I want the protective devices to trip,=20 not an electrical experience - other folk's installations provided that=20 Tshirt Martin -----Original Message----- From: Christian Corti via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] Sent: 27 May 2024 16:53 To: Don R. Cc: Christian Corti Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer > 16amps where? In Europe? At least in Germany 16 amps is standard. The Schuko outlets and pl= ugs are rated for this current. As an example, the fuse box in my appartment is splitting up the three input = phases (63A each) from the main distribution panel to 3x 3 circuits/16A each. Christian --===============8998503823645376897==-- From dave.dunfield@gmail.com Tue May 28 12:15:27 2024 From: Dave Dunfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 12:15:24 +0000 Message-ID: <171689852465.4006402.16780753252270373820@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6239665444349314867==" --===============6239665444349314867== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >With respect, I have studied the 1956 Royal McBee LGP-23 (and later -30) at >length and found one could easily use this computer as a "personal >computer". I've not see one of these - that's a VERY early system! Sounds like it could have been used for "personal" computing - but was it common and inexpensive enough that "average people" could have one? I just went on Ed Roberts claim to be one who coined the term "Personal Computer" - I've not found any specific references to this term pre-dating 1975 ... but who knows! (I've not really looked that hard :-) >One might find it pretty easy to program "Hunt the Wumpus" ... Interesting reference.. My Altair eventually had a "North Star" MDC-A1 installed, this is a very early SSSD floppy disk system - a whopping 90k per diskette. When I created my Altair emulator (about 2003 IIRC), I made and included .NSI (NorthStarImage)s of all the non-junk floppy disks I had at that time. This included a couple "games" disks, and "Hunt The Wumpus" is there! Dave Dunfield - https://dunfield.themindfactory.com --===============6239665444349314867==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue May 28 12:47:15 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 08:46:50 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <28f7600a-e9ab-4b36-ad17-a5724b1b2d58@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8439012101665941266==" --===============8439012101665941266== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/27/2024 5:47 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-05-26 12:30, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 4:26=E2=80=AFAM Glen Slick wrote: >=20 >> Anyway, if the SCM90448 EPROMs for your M8189 KDF11-B are actually >> Motorola MC68764 / MC68766 EPROMs,=20 >=20 > I have one board with MCM68766 and two boards with SCM90448 >=20 >> I have BP Microsystems device >> programmers that can handle those. I have programmed some of those >> myself for my own M8189 KDF11-B.=20 >=20 > Excellent! >=20 >> Are you looking to get set up with >> the 23-380E4 / 23-381E4 M8189-BG firmware? >=20 > Yup! Actually hoping for: > MicroPDP-11/23 ROM v1.1 (23-453E4 and 23-454E4 >=20 >> Those Motorola EPROMs require a Vpp of 25 volts, which is probably why >> a lot of modem device programmers don't handle them. > OK! I would love to have copies of the image HEX files so I could get some of mine running again. bill --===============8439012101665941266==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue May 28 13:02:56 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 09:02:35 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5e128a31-c54f-40a4-aff7-d9a4e4e7bb52@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3578164290778940397==" --===============3578164290778940397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/25/2024 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/25/24 08:14, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal computer. It was >> as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT more, and drew much more >> power.  (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 Germanium diodes,  drum memory.)  but, >> one guy could program it and run it. >> >> The LINC comes in a close second. > > Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from > competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp > wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires > special power wiring cannot be "personal" > None of the houses I have lived in were limited to 120V 15A. Even my very first apartment 50 years ago (over some guys garage) had 120V 30A (Intended for an A/C Unit but you could plug anything in it you wanted.) Every house I have owned had 230V available. I have several large power outlets in my current home. Range, clothes dryer, water heater, hot tub. And I have 220V 50A in the garage feeding my welder, electric heater and a 30A outlet for my camper. In the past I have had PDP-11's (with RL and RA disks), VAX, AT&T 3b's, an Apollo (great space heater on cold winter days) and piles of systems people are more likely to accept as "Personal". bill --===============3578164290778940397==-- From nadav.eiron@gmail.com Tue May 28 13:06:21 2024 From: Nadav Eiron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 06:06:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB57378BD51F0476B2BA7250CDEDF12=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7686188248511605726==" --===============7686188248511605726== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I got my images here: http://oldpc.su/articles/dec_roms/ On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 5:47 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 5/27/2024 5:47 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > On 2024-05-26 12:30, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > >> On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 4:26 AM Glen Slick > wrote: > > > >> Anyway, if the SCM90448 EPROMs for your M8189 KDF11-B are actually > >> Motorola MC68764 / MC68766 EPROMs, > > > > I have one board with MCM68766 and two boards with SCM90448 > > > >> I have BP Microsystems device > >> programmers that can handle those. I have programmed some of those > >> myself for my own M8189 KDF11-B. > > > > Excellent! > > > >> Are you looking to get set up with > >> the 23-380E4 / 23-381E4 M8189-BG firmware? > > > > Yup! Actually hoping for: > > MicroPDP-11/23 ROM v1.1 (23-453E4 and 23-454E4 > > > >> Those Motorola EPROMs require a Vpp of 25 volts, which is probably why > >> a lot of modem device programmers don't handle them. > > OK! > > I would love to have copies of the image HEX files so I could get > some of mine running again. > > bill > --===============7686188248511605726==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Tue May 28 13:08:50 2024 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 09:01:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB57378BD51F0476B2BA7250CDEDF12=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5012591651198799021==" --===============5012591651198799021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-05-28 08:46, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I would love to have copies of the image HEX files so I could get > some of mine running again. What do you have, an 11/23+ or BDV? --===============5012591651198799021==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue May 28 13:24:03 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 09:23:50 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004d27a6-e8c4-4a21-b388-5e7bf213c6eb@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6460927606212076440==" --===============6460927606212076440== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/26/2024 2:50 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > I think the most important thing for a Personal Computer, > is the average Joe, can afford and use it. The second thing is > to have ample memory and IO to run useful programs. The  basic Apple > I,II does not count as many others as it had BASIC in ROM and tape IO. Why not? I have seen some very serious research done on Apple][ systems at the University where I worked. I even have two of them that I saved from the dumpster. > The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer. > CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. Unix for the PDP-11 is real > operating system but not personal as it requires a admin,and a swapping > media. Tandy Color Computer running OS/9. I have had as many as 5 simultaneous users on one. Plus background tasks like a web server. Easily affordable since its inception. Can run very serious programs written in languages other than BASIC, plus it had Basic09 which was a much more serious language than the run-of-the-mill BASIC. bill --===============6460927606212076440==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue May 28 13:32:11 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 09:31:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <57d74f16-2c30-4367-9493-7487586bb9f2@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7792395002044909712==" --===============7792395002044909712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/26/2024 2:11 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > how many people here still use the 16Kb (favorite machine) > with tape IO? > I can, and have recently. TRS-80 Model I. In order to do some stuff with Tiny Pascal. But not so much any more as the machine also has 48K available if I hook up the EI and it has floppies, hard disks and ethernet (with TCP/IP available) when I need it. bill --===============7792395002044909712==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue May 28 13:38:20 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 09:38:13 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB57372E3A8F8E7C4BA9D2C569EDF12=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6775846861943174996==" --===============6775846861943174996== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 28, 2024, at 9:23 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 5/26/2024 2:50 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> I think the most important thing for a Personal Computer, >> is the average Joe, can afford and use it. The second thing is >> to have ample memory and IO to run useful programs. The basic Apple I,II = does not count as many others as it had BASIC in ROM and tape IO. >=20 > Why not? I have seen some very serious research done on Apple][ > systems at the University where I worked. I even have two of > them that I saved from the dumpster. That reminds me of an even more primitive personal computer, a 4004 based one= designed and built from scratch by a college classmate of mine in 1974. It = was a wire wrap board, with perhaps 100 chips on it (about the size of the S-= 100 motherboard I built from a kit some years later). When it was just about= complete he took it with him on his summer intern job at one of the US natio= nal labs, where apparently they liked it enough that they asked him to built = a couple of copies for them to use. He got honors in independent study for his work. paul --===============6775846861943174996==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue May 28 13:49:47 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 09:49:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4637397338284456175==" --===============4637397338284456175== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/28/2024 9:01 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2024-05-28 08:46, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> I would love to have copies of the image HEX files so I could get >> some of mine running again. > > What do you have, an 11/23+ or BDV? > I have both available. But mostly I would like to find images for my 11/23+ and 11/73 boards as I am finding a lot of faded EPROMs when I dig thru stuff. Problem with things sitting idle for so many years, bill --===============4637397338284456175==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue May 28 13:56:37 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 09:56:20 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <171689852465.4006402.16780753252270373820@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7806024204074221071==" --===============7806024204074221071== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 8:15 AM Dave Dunfield via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >With respect, I have studied the 1956 Royal McBee LGP-23 (and later -30) > at > >length and found one could easily use this computer as a "personal > >computer". > > I've not see one of these - that's a VERY early system! Sounds like it > could have been used for "personal" computing - but was it common and > inexpensive enough that "average people" could have one? > I don't consider whether a computer is inexpensive enough for the average person to use as a criteria for whether a computer could be considered by nature a personal computer. The key for me is "by nature". The manual and training materials for the LGP-30, which I have studied and worked with extensively, walk the average person how to use it as if it were a personal computer, even if they don't use that term in the manuals. I believe the LGP-30's were for the academic market, and large companies who had research labs. The materials I have are from DuPont in Wilmington Delaware. In the 50's a personal computer would be the same cost as a house, but can the average person afford a house now? Does that no longer make it a house? I did not have enough money to buy a Sinclair TS1000 when they first came out, my parents would never have bought one as it would have appeared a frivolous expense then. But no one would argue that the TS1000 (ZX81) was a personal computer. > > I just went on Ed Roberts claim to be one who coined the term "Personal > Computer" - I've not found any specific references to this term pre-dating > 1975 ... but who knows! (I've not really looked that hard :-) > > Not everyone speaks English, who knows if there is a Spanish, German, French, etc. use of the term. It would be hard to claim "first" of anything like that. > > >One might find it pretty easy to program "Hunt the Wumpus" ... > > > The LGP-30 had 3 tubes in it's clock module card, it was not a small, easy to move system, but it was contained in a single piece of furniture. My vote is for the LGP-30 to be considered among the first electronic personal computers. In simplest terms - a computer with an instruction set, programmable, saved programs, has RAM of some sort, electronic (not analog). Analog computers are a separate class as far as I am concerned, as are mechanical calculators, etc. The LGP-30 pre-dates the Bendix 15 and no where in any of those user manuals does it indicate anything hinting at personal use of the computer. IT was designed and marketed as a miniconmputer / industrial tool computer. Bill --===============7806024204074221071==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue May 28 14:16:51 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 10:16:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3355783871660136529==" --===============3355783871660136529== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 28, 2024, at 9:56 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > I don't consider whether a computer is inexpensive enough for the average > person to use as a criteria for whether a computer could be considered by > nature a personal computer.=20 And that makes sense. Consider that cell phones have always clearly been per= sonal phones, but the first ones were definitely not priced for the "average = person", not by a long shot. paul --===============3355783871660136529==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 28 14:24:56 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 07:24:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5792549981234828725==" --===============5792549981234828725== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 28, 2024, 7:16=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > And that makes sense. Consider that cell phones have always clearly been > personal phones, but the first ones were definitely not priced for the > "average person", not by a long shot. > > paul > Are you comparing a telephone, which can and only ever has (until the speakerphone) been able to be used by one person and one person only? The term "personal" as we use it for computers does not at all apply to telephones. Telephones are more akin to toothbrushes in terms of their use, or in a family situation, the toilet. It's not at all a fitting analogy. Sellam > --===============5792549981234828725==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue May 28 14:43:39 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 09:43:34 -0500 Message-ID: <1947739800.1085675.1716907414174@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB57377F4876A7C49C801D0D80EDF12=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7986504551368296960==" --===============7986504551368296960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable so if ONE person maybe living in a loft formerly industrial space has water c= ooling, and 200 amp 3 phase in their house, that automatically makes EVERY co= mputer using that power personal computer eligible? --First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had some f= ixtures for gas lighting. washer/dryer/furnace/hot water were all shared in = basement, real screw in fuses (not safety) so MAYBE had 220 if you used exten= sion cords to two rooms, probably 10 amps. --townhouse my parents moved to had 220 at the circuit box, but intended for = gas appliances and you either bought central AC before construction completed= , or tough luck, so no 220 outlets. --my first two personal apartments again no 220, probably 15 A --my condo had hi amp 110 for the living room sleeve A/C --rental house when married back to older, no 220 --current house has 220 hard wired for hot water, sauna, & central A/C, had 2= 20 outlet (or hard wired?) for electric stove in the kitchen (now ex-wife swa= pped out for gas as first priority, so wires capped and hidden under floor), = so only outlet for 220 is in laundry room for electric dryer, damp and not a = good place to run a computer..=20 
--Carey
> On 05/28/2024 8:02 AM CDT Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > On 5/25/2024 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/25/24 08:14, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >=20 ... > >=20 > > Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from > > competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp > > wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires > > special power wiring cannot be "personal" > >=20 >=20 > None of the houses I have lived in were limited to 120V 15A. Even my > very first apartment 50 years ago (over some guys garage) had 120V 30A > (Intended for an A/C Unit but you could plug anything in it you wanted.) > Every house I have owned had 230V available. I have several large power > outlets in my current home. Range, clothes dryer, water heater, hot > tub. And I have 220V 50A in the garage feeding my welder, electric > heater and a 30A outlet for my camper. >=20 > In the past I have had PDP-11's (with RL and RA disks), VAX, AT&T 3b's, > an Apollo (great space heater on cold winter days) and piles of systems > people are more likely to accept as "Personal". >=20 > bill --===============7986504551368296960==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue May 28 14:57:19 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 09:57:12 -0500 Message-ID: <119587767.1086672.1716908232289@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2634403088193120711==" --===============2634403088193120711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I still return to.=20 -->Who bought them?<-- Unless at least 5% (see quibbling below) of new purchases were by private ind= ividuals, not required for their gainful employment, they are "single user co= mputers", not "personal computers". "Personal" is how they are used, not how= they could be used. They do not become "personal computers" 40 years later when the only sales, u= sed, are to private individuals. If I buy a retired electric streetcare, do= es that make all streetcars "personal transportation"? Actually, I'd prefer to say 10% of purchases, where a corporate PO for 2500 c= omputers in a lot counts as one, and Sally Smith buying one for her kids to p= lay with also counts as one. Fred Jones buying one to manage his personal st= ock portfolio counts as personal, but Sara Perez buying one to manage her pai= d clients' portfolios does not. 
--Carey
> On 05/28/2024 9:24 AM CDT Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > On Tue, May 28, 2024, 7:16=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > > > And that makes sense. Consider that cell phones have always clearly been > > personal phones, but the first ones were definitely not priced for the > > "average person", not by a long shot. > > > > paul > > >=20 > Are you comparing a telephone, which can and only ever has (until the > speakerphone) been able to be used by one person and one person only? >=20 > The term "personal" as we use it for computers does not at all apply to > telephones. Telephones are more akin to toothbrushes in terms of their > use, or in a family situation, the toilet. It's not at all a fitting > analogy. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > > --===============2634403088193120711==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 28 14:59:54 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 07:59:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <119587767.1086672.1716908232289@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8232667887781267824==" --===============8232667887781267824== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 28, 2024, 7:57=E2=80=AFAM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > I still return to. > > -->Who bought them?<-- > What if Dad bought one for use by the entire family? Sellam --===============8232667887781267824==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue May 28 15:00:31 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 10:00:18 -0500 Message-ID: <1334806665.1086872.1716908418661@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4091383569251040172==" --===============4091383569251040172== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Au crontraire, I belive the first mobile phones were mostly purchased by corp= orations for their executives to use, if the executive left, the phone stayed= with the corporation. Early mobile phones were NOT personal devices. Back to "who bought them" as a criteria. 
--Carey
> On 05/28/2024 9:16 AM CDT Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > > On May 28, 2024, at 9:56 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > > ... > > I don't consider whether a computer is inexpensive enough for the average > > person to use as a criteria for whether a computer could be considered by > > nature a personal computer.=20 >=20 > And that makes sense. Consider that cell phones have always clearly been p= ersonal phones, but the first ones were definitely not priced for the "averag= e person", not by a long shot. >=20 > paul --===============4091383569251040172==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue May 28 15:25:18 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 10:25:13 -0500 Message-ID: <1726956168.1088493.1716909913141@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2526926888787684290==" --===============2526926888787684290== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I thought that was covered by the suggested person buying for their kids bein= g personal? No? sorry, my apologies, I should have made a paragraph break, I was mixing purch= ase orders with individual purchases. see square brackets for clarifications --- "Actually, I'd prefer to say 10% of purchases, where a corporate PO for 2500 = computers in a lot counts as one [purchase], and Sally Smith buying one for h= er kids to play with also counts as one [purchase]. =20 [added: so there could be 9 corporations buying 2500 each, and one average jo= e buying one to play with, and it could be a personal computer. Assuming LGP= -30s were purchased 1 or two at a time, the home installations would have to = be 5-10 % of total units sold] [***missing paragraph break***] Fred Jones buying one [computer] to manage his personal stock portfolio count= s as personal, but Sara Perez buying one [computer] to manage her paid client= s' portfolios does not." [reasoning: if purpose is to make money, it is an investment for business gai= n] If somebody bought an LGP-30 for their family to play with, that particular i= nstance [computer] was personal, but the percentage rule still kicks in. [We= re 10% of all purchases of LGP-30s made by parents for their kids to play wit= h?] --- Same concept as, if one guy living in a formerly industrial loft has water co= oling, and 300 amp 3 phase power available, that does NOT make any computer r= equiring that "personal". For that I'd say must be able to plug into 50% of = all homes, but realize more quibbling might apply there, such as 90% of all "= middle class" homes. 
--Carey
> On 05/28/2024 9:59 AM CDT Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > On Tue, May 28, 2024, 7:57=E2=80=AFAM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > I still return to. > > > > -->Who bought them?<-- > > >=20 > What if Dad bought one for use by the entire family? >=20 > Sellam --===============2526926888787684290==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 28 16:56:44 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 10:56:22 -0600 Message-ID: <487bd925-90fa-46cb-abe4-c197aca21e9c@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <1947739800.1085675.1716907414174@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3575881572883878271==" --===============3575881572883878271== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-05-28 8:43 a.m., CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > so if ONE person maybe living in a loft formerly industrial space has water= cooling, and 200 amp 3 phase in their house, that automatically makes EVERY = computer using that power personal computer eligible? >=20 > --First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had some= fixtures for gas lighting. washer/dryer/furnace/hot water were all shared i= n basement, real screw in fuses (not safety) so MAYBE had 220 if you used ext= ension cords to two rooms, probably 10 amps. > --townhouse my parents moved to had 220 at the circuit box, but intended fo= r gas appliances and you either bought central AC before construction complet= ed, or tough luck, so no 220 outlets. > --my first two personal apartments again no 220, probably 15 A Still wanting a GAS Computer? :) --===============3575881572883878271==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue May 28 16:58:46 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 17:58:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <487bd925-90fa-46cb-abe4-c197aca21e9c@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5258047487592391086==" --===============5258047487592391086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 5:56=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk wrote: > > --First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had so= me fixtures for gas lighting. washer/dryer/furnace/hot water were all shared= in basement, real screw in fuses (not safety) so MAYBE had 220 if you used e= xtension cords to two rooms, probably 10 amps. > > --townhouse my parents moved to had 220 at the circuit box, but intended = for gas appliances and you either bought central AC before construction compl= eted, or tough luck, so no 220 outlets. > > --my first two personal apartments again no 220, probably 15 A > > Still wanting a GAS Computer? :) I once repaired a gas radio (dating from the 1930s). No I am not joking. -tony --===============5258047487592391086==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 28 17:02:48 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 11:02:38 -0600 Message-ID: <12230d34-754d-4940-b486-36f6eccc6ea9@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <1726956168.1088493.1716909913141@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6115411131939024893==" --===============6115411131939024893== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Same concept as, if one guy living in a formerly industrial loft has water = cooling, and 300 amp 3 phase power available, that does NOT make any computer= requiring that "personal". For that I'd say must be able to plug into 50% o= f all homes, but realize more quibbling might apply there, such as 90% of all= "middle class" homes. For me to have a computer, means taking it 3 flights of stairs. Thus most vintage computers, I don't even think about them. --===============6115411131939024893==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 28 17:06:17 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 11:05:56 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7390156234567625569==" --===============7390156234567625569== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-05-28 10:58 a.m., Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 5:56=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 >>> --First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had so= me fixtures for gas lighting. washer/dryer/furnace/hot water were all shared= in basement, real screw in fuses (not safety) so MAYBE had 220 if you used e= xtension cords to two rooms, probably 10 amps. >>> --townhouse my parents moved to had 220 at the circuit box, but intended = for gas appliances and you either bought central AC before construction compl= eted, or tough luck, so no 220 outlets. >>> --my first two personal apartments again no 220, probably 15 A >> >> Still wanting a GAS Computer? :) >=20 > I once repaired a gas radio (dating from the 1930s). No I am not joking. >=20 > -tony Just what is a gas radio? --===============7390156234567625569==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue May 28 17:17:25 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 18:17:06 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3032737887448375560==" --===============3032737887448375560== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06 PM ben wrote: > Just what is a gas radio? A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity mains. Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both energy sources could easily be used for that. But then a large number of electric appliances using motors started to appear, along with other things, like radios that ran off the electricity mains (rather than a dry battery for the HT supply (B+) and a single-cell lead acid accumulator for the valve filaments). The gas supply companies were worried they would lose business as a result and designed gas powered version of all the mains electrical devices. One classis was the table fan which had a small Stirling-type hot air engine to turn the blades. There was of course a little gas burner to run the engine. The only problem was the heat of the flame rather negated the cooling effect of the fan. Anyway, the gas radio. This was a wooden floor-standing console cabinet looking like most other radios of the time. The bit I repaired (for a museum, where I understood it would be run off a normal electrical power supply for obvious reasons) was the radio which was a normal-for-the time 3 or 4 valve (tube) set. There was a speaker in the cabinet too. At the bottom was the power supply. This consisted of a gas burner with a thermopile (array of thermocouple junctions) on top to provide the valve filament and HT voltages. There was no flue. The combustion products were simply vented into the room, And yes the gas burner was inside the wooden console cabinet, so it was something of a fire risk to be polite about it. AFAIK they were never sold to the public, thankfully. -tony > --===============3032737887448375560==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 28 17:23:14 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 10:23:05 -0700 Message-ID: <227c4fd8-9005-4a11-a426-e73358936e7b@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2965290894064528946==" --===============2965290894064528946== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/28/24 10:05, ben via cctalk wrote: > Just what is a gas radio? One powered by thermoelectricity fueled by lighting gas. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Museum Looks to be an English peculiarity. Akin to the wood-gas powered card. --Chuck --===============2965290894064528946==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 28 17:29:39 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 10:29:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <227c4fd8-9005-4a11-a426-e73358936e7b@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4552453518309655826==" --===============4552453518309655826== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More on gas radios: http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/thermoelectric/thermoelectric.htm#rl --Chuck --===============4552453518309655826==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Tue May 28 17:45:59 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 13:45:51 -0400 Message-ID: <3f2feb67-9eb3-4889-adff-8acef8fcd611@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1429547990653769000==" --===============1429547990653769000== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In line with my memories completely, Tony, although I was just a wee sapling back then. It is also where the terms 'A', 'B' and 'C' supplies come from, since there were three batteries per radio, grid bias, HT, and heaters. The grid bias battery lasted a long time since there was very little current drawn. And I have fond memories of learning to play the piano by gaslight, since the elderly spinster piano teacher and her mother refused to let the house be connected to the electric mains as they were afraid of it! Then of course there was the Ronan Point gas explosion which blew out a whole floor of a high-rise building in London that might have changed people's minds! 73 de Nigel ve3id On 2024-05-28 13:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06 PM ben wrote: > >> Just what is a gas radio? > A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity mains. > > Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes > until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both > energy sources could easily be used for that. But then a large number > of electric appliances using motors started to appear, along with > other things, like radios that ran off the electricity mains (rather > than a dry battery for the HT supply (B+) and a single-cell lead acid > accumulator for the valve filaments). > > The gas supply companies were worried they would lose business as a > result and designed gas powered version of all the mains electrical > devices. One classis was the table fan which had a small Stirling-type > hot air engine to turn the blades. There was of course a little gas > burner to run the engine. The only problem was the heat of the flame > rather negated the cooling effect of the fan. > > Anyway, the gas radio. This was a wooden floor-standing console > cabinet looking like most other radios of the time. The bit I > repaired (for a museum, where I understood it would be run off a > normal electrical power supply for obvious reasons) was the radio > which was a normal-for-the time 3 or 4 valve (tube) set. There was a > speaker in the cabinet too. At the bottom was the power supply. This > consisted of a gas burner with a thermopile (array of thermocouple > junctions) on top to provide the valve filament and HT voltages. > > There was no flue. The combustion products were simply vented into the > room, And yes the gas burner was inside the wooden console cabinet, so > it was something of a fire risk to be polite about it. > > AFAIK they were never sold to the public, thankfully. > > -tony > > -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============1429547990653769000==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Tue May 28 18:23:28 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 14:23:22 -0400 Message-ID: <433de72d-788c-4597-8ba2-15456e5b18e5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3f2feb67-9eb3-4889-adff-8acef8fcd611@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0568598854704092418==" --===============0568598854704092418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could this be the answer to the question we have been studying? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cleaning-crew-discovers-one-worlds-= oldest-surviving-desktop-computers-180984399/?fbclid=3DIwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0X= LQ55t9rqdmPmIZ2G9wnk5PQyQBAPgIldqyWY1aSBSumxmnIxxj1pKB8_aem_AYsP2xUVa1G4_zU9n= pLd2aOC1SSXE13QtKIpVwLXoSfmIprnTqf2pwotD3ZeGgUwtxN5ggJxhF9_IcL815ePnMlO cheers, Nigel On 2024-05-28 13:45, Nigel Johnson Ham wrote: > > In line with my memories completely, Tony, although I was just a wee=20 > sapling back then. > > It is also where the terms 'A', 'B' and 'C' supplies come from, since=20 > there were three batteries per radio, grid bias, HT, and heaters. The=20 > grid bias battery lasted a long time since there was very little=20 > current drawn. > > And I have fond memories of learning to play the piano by gaslight,=20 > since the elderly spinster piano teacher and her mother refused to let=20 > the house be connected to the electric mains as they were afraid of it! > > Then of course there was the Ronan Point gas explosion which blew out=20 > a whole floor of a high-rise building in London that might have=20 > changed people's minds! > > 73 de Nigel ve3id > > > > On 2024-05-28 13:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06=E2=80=AFPM ben wro= te: >> >>> Just what is a gas radio? >> A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity mains. >> >> Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes >> until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both >> energy sources could easily be used for that. But then a large number >> of electric appliances using motors started to appear, along with >> other things, like radios that ran off the electricity mains (rather >> than a dry battery for the HT supply (B+) and a single-cell lead acid >> accumulator for the valve filaments). >> >> The gas supply companies were worried they would lose business as a >> result and designed gas powered version of all the mains electrical >> devices. One classis was the table fan which had a small Stirling-type >> hot air engine to turn the blades. There was of course a little gas >> burner to run the engine. The only problem was the heat of the flame >> rather negated the cooling effect of the fan. >> >> Anyway, the gas radio. This was a wooden floor-standing console >> cabinet looking like most other radios of the time. The bit I >> repaired (for a museum, where I understood it would be run off a >> normal electrical power supply for obvious reasons) was the radio >> which was a normal-for-the time 3 or 4 valve (tube) set. There was a >> speaker in the cabinet too. At the bottom was the power supply. This >> consisted of a gas burner with a thermopile (array of thermocouple >> junctions) on top to provide the valve filament and HT voltages. >> >> There was no flue. The combustion products were simply vented into the >> room, And yes the gas burner was inside the wooden console cabinet, so >> it was something of a fire risk to be polite about it. >> >> AFAIK they were never sold to the public, thankfully. >> >> -tony >> >> > --=20 > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============0568598854704092418==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue May 28 18:28:49 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 13:28:42 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1334806665.1086872.1716908418661@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4829758082557219430==" --===============4829758082557219430== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/28/24 10:00, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > Au crontraire, I belive the first mobile phones were mostly purchased by co= rporations for their executives to use, if the executive left, the phone stay= ed with the corporation. Early mobile phones were NOT personal devices. > In 1971 or 1972 I was in the Washington DC airport executive=20 lounge.=C2=A0 Dolly Parton was in there, she had two gofers=20 getting her coffee and stuff, and she had a large "bag=20 phone" that she was on a lot of the time, presumably making=20 arrangements for shows.=C2=A0 This was a square-cornered hard bag=20 with a shoulder strap, and there was an old-style handset=20 with a coil cord connected to it.=C2=A0 The bag was something=20 like 10 by 8 x 4" and appeared to be quite heavy.=C2=A0 I am=20 pretty sure the thing was "personal" to her. Jon --===============4829758082557219430==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue May 28 18:32:12 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 13:32:05 -0500 Message-ID: <8f270af8-8018-3857-2ffc-9632f1221d68@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <12230d34-754d-4940-b486-36f6eccc6ea9@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3775982626398051809==" --===============3775982626398051809== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/28/24 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote: > > >> Same concept as, if one guy living in a formerly >> industrial loft has water cooling, and 300 amp 3 phase >> power available, that does NOT make any computer >> requiring that "personal".  For that I'd say must be able >> to plug into 50% of all homes, but realize more quibbling >> might apply there, such as 90% of all "middle class" homes. > > For me to have a computer, means taking it 3 flights of > stairs. > Thus most vintage computers, I don't even think about them. > There's a story about a guy in Australia that found an abandoned IBM 360/30 in a storage/shipper's warehouse and dragged it to a rented office space that had no elevator. He carefully dismantled it, dragged the pieces up to at least the 2nd or 3rd floor, put it back together and got it running! QUITE a story! Jon --===============3775982626398051809==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue May 28 18:34:31 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 13:34:26 -0500 Message-ID: <393644462.1099015.1716921266526@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0710005524699069420==" --===============0710005524699069420== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > On 05/28/2024 1:05 PM CDT Sellam Abraham wrote: > =20 > What if a corporation in 1970 purchased an IBM 360 for each of their employ= ees for their individual personal use? Now what? > =20 > Sellam >=20 1. I don't believe ANYBODY could purchase a 360. You had to lease them. =20 2. do you know of such a company? (with a significant number of employees, no= t a lone entrepreneur). I figure asking means that maybe you do. and since = I believe no 360 but maybe the model 20 (not a real 360) or the model 22 woul= d plug into household power it seems unlikely unless a tax dodge. =20 3. if it was one purchase order, it sounds like ONE for the personal computer= tally, vs thousands for the not-personal tally. Remember we still need to h= ave enough computers to be 10% (or negotiated percentage) of the total produc= ed. One exception does not change everything. =20 ----------------------- =20 I should have repeated my other suggestion. Only computers NOT depreciated/e= xpensed count as personal. If depreciated, it is a business computer for bus= iness purposes. =20 to summarize any or all of the following:=20 =20 -- if depreciated or expensed (reducing income) it is business, otherwise pe= rsonal. ** --10% of purchases (a lot counts as ONE purchase, including "100-200 per mont= h for 3 years") must be out of household funds (per income tax filings) for a= nd used for household education, not for earning claimed income. --by some criteria, be able to plug into private home power for a reasonable = subset of the population. =20 ** There could be tax reasons/dodges (not saying they are legal): (1) a small= business could expense them immediately (vs depreciate over years) by titlin= g them in employees' or families' names, (2) a private individual could depre= ciate even though not actually doing any significant amount of income earning= work on them (3) would have been expensed/depreciated but not enough income = to be of any advantage, (4) probably many others, ask a shady tax lawyer. --Carey --===============0710005524699069420==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue May 28 18:42:23 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 13:42:15 -0500 Message-ID: <355393244.1099446.1716921735919@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <8f270af8-8018-3857-2ffc-9632f1221d68@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7588614104872971648==" --===============7588614104872971648== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since I belive ALL IBM computers in that era were ONLY leased, it is technica= lly still the property of IBM and they could claim it back. 
--Carey
> On 05/28/2024 1:32 PM CDT Jon Elson via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =20 > On 5/28/24 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> Same concept as, if one guy living in a formerly=20 > >> industrial loft has water cooling, and 300 amp 3 phase=20 > >> power available, that does NOT make any computer=20 > >> requiring that "personal".=C2=A0 For that I'd say must be able=20 > >> to plug into 50% of all homes, but realize more quibbling=20 > >> might apply there, such as 90% of all "middle class" homes. > > > > For me to have a computer, means taking it 3 flights of=20 > > stairs. > > Thus most vintage computers, I don't even think about them. > > > There's a story about a guy in Australia that found an=20 > abandoned IBM 360/30 in a storage/shipper's warehouse and=20 > dragged it to a rented office space that had no elevator. He=20 > carefully dismantled it, dragged the pieces up to at least=20 > the 2nd or 3rd floor, put it back together and got it running! >=20 > QUITE a story! >=20 > Jon --===============7588614104872971648==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue May 28 18:54:31 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 14:53:54 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5928187541652924506==" --===============5928187541652924506== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/28/2024 2:28 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 5/28/24 10:00, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >> Au crontraire, I belive the first mobile phones were mostly purchased >> by corporations for their executives to use, if the executive left, >> the phone stayed with the corporation.  Early mobile phones were NOT >> personal devices. >> > In 1971 or 1972 I was in the Washington DC airport executive lounge. > Dolly Parton was in there, she had two gofers getting her coffee and > stuff, and she had a large "bag phone" that she was on a lot of the > time, presumably making arrangements for shows.  This was a > square-cornered hard bag with a shoulder strap, and there was an > old-style handset with a coil cord connected to it.  The bag was > something like 10 by 8 x 4" and appeared to be quite heavy.  I am pretty > sure the thing was "personal" to her. > My wife had one. It was definitely personal. bill --===============5928187541652924506==-- From commodorejohn@gmail.com Tue May 28 19:23:47 2024 From: John To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 12:23:37 -0700 Message-ID: <20240528122337.0000389b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <171674280822.2847341.12109229757735326770@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8881968779767717709==" --===============8881968779767717709== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: ben To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] > The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer. > CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. Unix for the PDP-11 is real > operating system but not personal as it requires a admin,and a > swapping media. This an auld refrain among *nix partisans of the ESR type, but I've yet to hear someone offer up a real defense of it. Even putting aside what "handles IRQs" means here (yes, strictly speaking the IRQs on the IBM PC are handled by the BIOS and/or add-on drivers/utilties, but DOS most certainly makes use of the facilities provided,) why does that make it "not a real OS?" What does PDP-11 Unix provide which MS-DOS doesn't to make one "real" and the other not? Certainly, nothing about a single-tasking single-user text-based environment *requires* interrupt-based I/O, even if it may smooth out performance in some aspects. And there's little if any call for a security system that'd require an administrator account in such a model; if one user "owns" the machine, whatever they decide to do to it can be Considered Legitimate. Virtual-memory capability may certainly enable the user to do more than they'd otherwise be able to, but it's hard to make an argument for it as a *requirement;* even *nix can run without swap, and in point of fact DOS can be support virtual memory with a protected-mode extender. Or is it multi-tasking capability itself that makes the difference? Can't see why that should be the case; it's definitely convenient, but as one person can only be doing so much at any given time, it's also hard to see that as a *requirement.* So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why? --===============8881968779767717709==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue May 28 19:39:01 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 15:38:53 -0400 Message-ID: <4AB7C3EC-D196-47F7-A32B-B85D12390F14@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20240528122337.0000389b@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1023353056375546004==" --===============1023353056375546004== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 28, 2024, at 3:24 PM, John via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > From: ben > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] >=20 >> The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer. >> CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. Unix for the PDP-11 is real=20 >> operating system but not personal as it requires a admin,and a >> swapping media. >=20 > This an auld refrain among *nix partisans of the ESR type, but I've yet > to hear someone offer up a real defense of it. Even putting aside what > "handles IRQs" means here (yes, strictly speaking the IRQs on the IBM > PC are handled by the BIOS and/or add-on drivers/utilties, but DOS most > certainly makes use of the facilities provided,) why does that make it > "not a real OS?" What does PDP-11 Unix provide which MS-DOS doesn't to > make one "real" and the other not? >=20 > Certainly, nothing about a single-tasking single-user text-based > environment *requires* interrupt-based I/O, even if it may smooth out > performance in some aspects. ... >=20 > Or is it multi-tasking capability itself that makes the difference? > Can't see why that should be the case; it's definitely convenient, but > as one person can only be doing so much at any given time, it's also > hard to see that as a *requirement.* >=20 > So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why? Is RT-11 a "real operating system"? What about RT-11 SJ? I would consider i= t to be one. For that matter, what about OS/360 PCP? That's a single task OS, just like R= T-11 SJ only much less efficient. Is FIG-FORTH an OS? What about POLYFORTH or ZeptoFORTH? The picture gets particularly muddled when you look at RTOS. For example, it= 's well known in hard real-time OS that using interrupts is not necessarily a= good plan. A very successful storage system I worked on ran on a dual core = MIPS system. One core ran NetBSD; the other ran a home-grown RTOS called QRQ= that used a polling loop (and no priorities) rather than interrupts. The be= nefit of such a design is that its time bounds are easy to establish, unlike = interrupt driven systems where that is certainly harder and not always possib= le at all. I'd say an OS is a software system that runs on bare metal (or equivalent, li= ke a VM) and offers a set of services intended to make creating and running a= pplications easier. In that sense, RT-11 SJ or OS/360 PCP are operating syst= ems, just as Linux is. QRQ is on the edge (it's written for a single applica= tion). Similarly, I would not call FIG-FORTH an OS, nor those other FORTH sy= stems, though admittedly it's also a bit fuzzy. paul --===============1023353056375546004==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 28 20:50:00 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 13:49:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <393644462.1099015.1716921266526@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7289320242383838398==" --===============7289320242383838398== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:34=E2=80=AFAM CAREY SCHUG wrote: > > > On 05/28/2024 1:05 PM CDT Sellam Abraham wrote: > > What if a corporation in 1970 purchased an IBM 360 for each of their > employees for their individual personal use? Now what? > > Sellam > > Thanks for carrying the proposition to the list. I didn't realize I only replied to you privately. > 1. I don't believe ANYBODY could purchase a 360. You had to lease them. > Why should that matter? Shouldn't it be how they were used rather than how they were acquired? What if grandpa buys an Apple ][ for his grandson, presumably for his personal use? But what if grandson is CEO of a corporation and is going to use it for corporate purposes? What if an organization purchases a large multi-user computer, keeps it in storage as a backup (so it's never used), then years later when it's no longer fit for organizational use sells it as surplus to a guy named Phil who brings it home and installs it in his garage and uses it by himself for fun? What if he then starts a business and then starts using it for the business, and he hires other people and they start using it as well? Since it was purchased by a corporation initially, does it make it not a personal computer, even though it was previously only ever used personally by a person that purchased it? > 2. do you know of such a company? (with a significant number of employees, > not a lone entrepreneur). I figure asking means that maybe you do. and > since I believe no 360 but maybe the model 20 (not a real 360) or the > model 22 would plug into household power it seems unlikely unless a tax > dodge. > So you concede it could have been done. Butt seriously, what if a large corporation purchases a bunch of IBM PCs (disregard that they are called "PC", i.e. "Personal Computer") for individual employees for their personal use in their office at work? Are they not "personal computers" because the corporation purchased them? > > 3. if it was one purchase order, it sounds like ONE for the personal > computer tally, vs thousands for the not-personal tally. Remember we still > need to have enough computers to be 10% (or negotiated percentage) of the > total produced. One exception does not change everything. > What if a thousand people got together to crowdfund the purchase of a computer for poor little Timmy? What if that computer was a Cray 1? I think you need to put away the purchaser criterion. I should have repeated my other suggestion. Only computers NOT > depreciated/expensed count as personal. If depreciated, it is a business > computer for business purposes. > Are you an accountant by any chance? > to summarize any or all of the following: > > -- if depreciated or expensed (reducing income) it is business, otherwise > personal. ** > --10% of purchases (a lot counts as ONE purchase, including "100-200 per > month for 3 years") must be out of household funds (per income tax filings) > for and used for household education, not for earning claimed income. > --by some criteria, be able to plug into private home power for a > reasonable subset of the population. > I love it, short and simple. I'll start printing this heuristic onto a durable plastic card and we can start distributing them to all the VCF attendees so they can properly determine whether a computer is personal or not. We'll then have to establish a standards organization to ensure that people are properly trained on how to read expense reports, go through corporate books, compute depreciation (and power usage, which will require electronics training), etc. > ** There could be tax reasons/dodges (not saying they are legal): (1) a > small business could expense them immediately (vs depreciate over years) by > titling them in employees' or families' names, (2) a private individual > could depreciate even though not actually doing any significant amount of > income earning work on them (3) would have been expensed/depreciated but > not enough income to be of any advantage, (4) probably many others, ask a > shady tax lawyer. > > --Carey > > How about can we be done with this now? :D Sellam --===============7289320242383838398==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 28 21:21:10 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 14:21:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5336955733194119542==" --===============5336955733194119542== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 28 May 2024, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > In 1971 or 1972 I was in the Washington DC airport executive lounge.=C2=A0 = Dolly=20 > Parton was in there, she had two gofers getting her coffee and stuff, and s= he=20 > had a large "bag phone" that she was on a lot of the time, presumably makin= g=20 > arrangements for shows.=C2=A0 This was a square-cornered hard bag with a sh= oulder=20 > strap, and there was an old-style handset with a coil cord connected to it.= =C2=A0=20 > The bag was something like 10 by 8 x 4" and appeared to be quite heavy.=C2= =A0 I=20 > am pretty sure the thing was "personal" to her. On Tue, 28 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > [reasoning: if purpose is to make money, it is an investment for business g= ain] Therefore, since Dolly Parton was "presumably making arrangements for=20 shows", then by CAREY SCHUG's criteris, it was NOT "personal" to her. . . . and that of the dozens of "personal computers" that I had prior to Y2K, none of them were "personal" We can never agree on the definition. The blind men are fixxated on=20 individual features of the elephant. I contend that making money, and purchasing by a business and handing out=20 to employees, are orthogonal to whether it is a "personal" computer, and=20 on a par with whether it was in the bedroom, living room, or home office. (bedroom (unless a sex-worker) is "personal", kitchen table or home office=20 is not.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5336955733194119542==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 28 21:35:10 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 14:35:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <393644462.1099015.1716921266526@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8768579555450816258==" --===============8768579555450816258== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 28 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > 1. I don't believe ANYBODY could purchase a 360. You had to lease them. > 2. do you know of such a company? (with a significant number of employees, = not a lone entrepreneur). I figure asking means that maybe you do. and sinc= e I believe no 360 but maybe the model 20 (not a real 360) or the model 22 wo= uld plug into household power it seems unlikely unless a tax dodge. > 3. if it was one purchase order, it sounds like ONE for the personal comput= er tally, vs thousands for the not-personal tally. Remember we still need to= have enough computers to be 10% (or negotiated percentage) of the total prod= uced. One exception does not change everything. > ----------------------- > I should have repeated my other suggestion. Only computers NOT depreciated= /expensed count as personal. If depreciated, it is a business computer for b= usiness purposes. > to summarize any or all of the following: > -- if depreciated or expensed (reducing income) it is business, otherwise = personal. ** > --10% of purchases (a lot counts as ONE purchase, including "100-200 per mo= nth for 3 years") must be out of household funds (per income tax filings) for= and used for household education, not for earning claimed income. > --by some criteria, be able to plug into private home power for a reasonabl= e subset of the population. > > ** There could be tax reasons/dodges (not saying they are legal): (1) a=20 > small business could expense them immediately (vs depreciate over years)=20 > by titling them in employees' or families' names, (2) a private=20 > individual could depreciate even though not actually doing any=20 > significant amount of income earning work on them (3) would have been=20 > expensed/depreciated but not enough income to be of any advantage, (4)=20 > probably many others, ask a shady tax lawyer. 1) property of a sole proprietorship IS legally in the owner's name I depreciated my first two TRS80 Model 1's, which got "personal" use, as=20 well as business use. Later machines I expensed out, which surprisingly held up through an=20 audit!, on the argument that because of the nature of the business that I=20 was doing, I needed to purchase current machines, rather than the usual=20 use over many years. For example, when IBM switched from 8088 to 80286, I=20 needed an AT immediately briefly, and not for very long, to test and fix=20 my code (prefetch buffer size was an issue, solved by a JMP $) "Self-modifying code may seem like fun, but it WILL ALWAYS come back=20 eventually and byte your ass." Continuing to have them, and even some lesser use of them after thay had=20 served their initial purpose and amortized did not obviate that.=20 4) I could have used a shadier tax lawyer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8768579555450816258==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 28 21:37:23 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 14:37:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <355393244.1099446.1716921735919@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1693054537911918082==" --===============1693054537911918082== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 28 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > Since I belive ALL IBM computers in that era were ONLY leased, it is techni= cally still the property of IBM and they could claim it back. > 
--Carey
So, . . . RENTING (including "rent to own" scams) a "personal computer" makes it not "p= ersonal"? --===============1693054537911918082==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 28 21:44:49 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 14:44:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240528122337.0000389b@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1009863453699161048==" --===============1009863453699161048== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 28 May 2024, John via cctalk wrote: > Even putting aside what > "handles IRQs" means here (yes, strictly speaking the IRQs on the IBM > PC are handled by the BIOS and/or add-on drivers/utilties, but DOS most > certainly makes use of the facilities provided,) Installed add-on drivers/utilities become part of the OS. BIOS??!? "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres: BIOS, BDOS, Command processor" > So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and WHY? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1009863453699161048==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue May 28 21:49:56 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 16:49:45 -0500 Message-ID: <5736938c-da03-42da-9e8f-25e0e3b521de@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <4AB7C3EC-D196-47F7-A32B-B85D12390F14@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2484199622313768380==" --===============2484199622313768380== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul, you said:/ / /I'd say an OS is a software system that runs on bare metal (or=20 equivalent, like a VM) and offers a set of services intended to make=20 creating and running applications easier. In that sense, RT-11 SJ or=20 OS/360 PCP are operating systems, just as Linux is. QRQ is on the edge=20 (it's written for a single application). Similarly, I would not call=20 FIG-FORTH an OS, nor those other FORTH systems, though admittedly it's=20 also a bit fuzzy. / If the file system and basic I/O functions drivers are in ROM what is the dif= ference between a BIOS and an Operating System. Technically speaking, for some, the BIOS offers a hardware abstraction level = to some more generic software that runs on top. BIOS means Basic Input Outpu= t System. Is that restricted to the console only? Some systems run their en= tire "Operating System" out of ROM? Let's take a very simple computer, the HP-41C Calculator. The internal 12K o= r ROM handled all of the keypad I/O, display I/O, math functions and programm= ing functions. Each device added contained all of it's drivers in ROM. Ther= e was never an "Operating System" to load but with additonal hardware/softwar= e modules even reading and writing to floppy disks and mini data cassettes wa= s supported. The 12K main ROM and how the expansion hardware/ROM integrated = into it was definitely an operating system. On the IBM-PC most boards (that were not just multi I/O or RAM boards) came w= ith their own drivers in ROM as well and were even called bios extensions. T= he big difference between the PC and the HP-41C that the PC needed to load th= e file system handler (and others as time when on) from disk to run. Whereas= the HP-41C never needed to "bootstrap" from some kind of media. By your definition many BIOS's are really operating systems. And if I really= want to pick nits, what you defined as an Operating System is really an appl= ication that uses the BIOS Operating System. Yes, I know, not all BIOS's hav= e enough functionality to qualify as an operating system. To spark even further debate, does an operating system require file system ca= pabilities. Many do not. This furthers my supposition that the BIOS is real= ly the operating system and what you are calling an operating system is merel= y an application using the BIOS API for the required services.=F0=9F=99=82 My comments are not intended to inflame but rather to cause further discussio= n. On 5/28/2024 2:38 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On May 28, 2024, at 3:24 PM, John via cctalk wro= te: >> >> From: ben >> To:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >> Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] >> >>> The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer. >>> CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. Unix for the PDP-11 is real >>> operating system but not personal as it requires a admin,and a >>> swapping media. >> This an auld refrain among *nix partisans of the ESR type, but I've yet >> to hear someone offer up a real defense of it. Even putting aside what >> "handles IRQs" means here (yes, strictly speaking the IRQs on the IBM >> PC are handled by the BIOS and/or add-on drivers/utilties, but DOS most >> certainly makes use of the facilities provided,) why does that make it >> "not a real OS?" What does PDP-11 Unix provide which MS-DOS doesn't to >> make one "real" and the other not? >> >> Certainly, nothing about a single-tasking single-user text-based >> environment *requires* interrupt-based I/O, even if it may smooth out >> performance in some aspects. ... >> >> Or is it multi-tasking capability itself that makes the difference? >> Can't see why that should be the case; it's definitely convenient, but >> as one person can only be doing so much at any given time, it's also >> hard to see that as a *requirement.* >> >> So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why? > Is RT-11 a "real operating system"? What about RT-11 SJ? I would consider= it to be one. > > For that matter, what about OS/360 PCP? That's a single task OS, just like= RT-11 SJ only much less efficient. > > Is FIG-FORTH an OS? What about POLYFORTH or ZeptoFORTH? > > The picture gets particularly muddled when you look at RTOS. For example, = it's well known in hard real-time OS that using interrupts is not necessarily= a good plan. A very successful storage system I worked on ran on a dual cor= e MIPS system. One core ran NetBSD; the other ran a home-grown RTOS called Q= RQ that used a polling loop (and no priorities) rather than interrupts. The = benefit of such a design is that its time bounds are easy to establish, unlik= e interrupt driven systems where that is certainly harder and not always poss= ible at all. > > I'd say an OS is a software system that runs on bare metal (or equivalent, = like a VM) and offers a set of services intended to make creating and running= applications easier. In that sense, RT-11 SJ or OS/360 PCP are operating sy= stems, just as Linux is. QRQ is on the edge (it's written for a single appli= cation). Similarly, I would not call FIG-FORTH an OS, nor those other FORTH = systems, though admittedly it's also a bit fuzzy. > > paul > --===============2484199622313768380==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 28 22:08:09 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 15:08:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3702278687075716024==" --===============3702278687075716024== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 28 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Why should that matter? Shouldn't it be how they were used rather than how > they were acquired? About a quarter century ago, the college gave a computer to each tenured professor. Although possibly nominally owned by the college, they did not ask for them back, and refused when anybody tried to return one. After the contract for them was negotiated for name-brand machines, the purchasing office (malfeasance with kickbacks) let the vendor substitute generics. ("Chembook" with NTFS 4) Our union (powerless wimps) had been unsuccessful at getting it to permit individuals to make their own purchase and be reimbursed. Would reimbursement of a apersonal purchase change whether it was a "personal" computer? "If your working television sits on top of your non-working television, you might be a redneck." - Jeff Foxworthy What if your current laptop (not being carried around) sits on top of your previous laptop? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3702278687075716024==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 28 22:11:04 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 15:10:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4599678881047587937==" --===============4599678881047587937== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 28 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > How about can we be done with this now? :D Sorry, but "FIRST" and "PERSONAL" are permanent topics, along with emacs V VI, big-endian/little-endian, Mac/PC, 6502/Z80, etc. --===============4599678881047587937==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue May 28 22:11:22 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 17:11:16 -0500 Message-ID: <1572365854.1107777.1716934276236@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5881759487736764785==" --===============5881759487736764785== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll make it simple. if a computer is being purchased by a non-human, i.e. corporation, to be used= to benefit the corporation, it is NOT a personal computer. Corporations ten= d to buy things on purchase orders, including open ended, for hundreds or tho= usands at a time. One way to determine if it is being used for business or not is if it is depr= eciated. In MOST cases, if it is being depreciated (or perhaps even expensed= ), then it is a BUSINESS computer. Simple Tax law. Aside from tax cheats, i= t is ILLEGAL to depreciate a computer UNLESS IT IS BEING USED FOR BUSINESS, a= nd therefore NOT personally. I presume when Apple gave computers to schools, they were considered a donati= on, not depreciated or expensed. If a computer is being purchased by a human, for the use of a few humans and = not for their primary livelihood, it is a personal computer. =20 I won't quibble the exact transition point for someone who does the books for= his home business as well as play games on the device. BECAUSE as long as 10% of purchases are for use as a PERSONAL COMPUTER, then = I will call it a personal computer, even if 90% of the purchases, (and 99.9% = of the computers, because each business purchase is for 500 computers). If you want to quibble the 10%, fine, I don't have the energy or desire to fi= ght it out, but it is NOT reasonable to say that if JUST A SINGLE ONE of the = computer type was being ised not-for-business, for two months, 6 years ago, t= hen it is a personal computer. 
--Carey
> On 05/28/2024 3:49 PM CDT Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:34=E2=80=AFAM CAREY SCHUG wrote: >=20 > > > > > > On 05/28/2024 1:05 PM CDT Sellam Abraham wrot= e: > > > > What if a corporation in 1970 purchased an IBM 360 for each of their > > employees for their individual personal use? Now what? > > > > Sellam > > > > Thanks for carrying the proposition to the list. I didn't realize I only > replied to you privately. >=20 >=20 > > 1. I don't believe ANYBODY could purchase a 360. You had to lease them. > > >=20 > Why should that matter? Shouldn't it be how they were used rather than how > they were acquired? What if grandpa buys an Apple ][ for his grandson, > presumably for his personal use? But what if grandson is CEO of a > corporation and is going to use it for corporate purposes? What if an > organization purchases a large multi-user computer, keeps it in storage as > a backup (so it's never used), then years later when it's no longer fit for > organizational use sells it as surplus to a guy named Phil who brings it > home and installs it in his garage and uses it by himself for fun? What if > he then starts a business and then starts using it for the business, and he > hires other people and they start using it as well? Since it was purchased > by a corporation initially, does it make it not a personal computer, even > though it was previously only ever used personally by a person that > purchased it? >=20 >=20 > > 2. do you know of such a company? (with a significant number of employees, > > not a lone entrepreneur). I figure asking means that maybe you do. and > > since I believe no 360 but maybe the model 20 (not a real 360) or the > > model 22 would plug into household power it seems unlikely unless a tax > > dodge. > > >=20 > So you concede it could have been done. Butt seriously, what if a large > corporation purchases a bunch of IBM PCs (disregard that they are called > "PC", i.e. "Personal Computer") for individual employees for their personal > use in their office at work? Are they not "personal computers" because the > corporation purchased them? >=20 >=20 > > > > 3. if it was one purchase order, it sounds like ONE for the personal > > computer tally, vs thousands for the not-personal tally. Remember we sti= ll > > need to have enough computers to be 10% (or negotiated percentage) of the > > total produced. One exception does not change everything. > > >=20 > What if a thousand people got together to crowdfund the purchase of a > computer for poor little Timmy? What if that computer was a Cray 1? >=20 > I think you need to put away the purchaser criterion. >=20 > I should have repeated my other suggestion. Only computers NOT > > depreciated/expensed count as personal. If depreciated, it is a business > > computer for business purposes. > > >=20 > Are you an accountant by any chance? >=20 >=20 > > to summarize any or all of the following: > > > > -- if depreciated or expensed (reducing income) it is business, otherwise > > personal. ** > > --10% of purchases (a lot counts as ONE purchase, including "100-200 per > > month for 3 years") must be out of household funds (per income tax filing= s) > > for and used for household education, not for earning claimed income. > > --by some criteria, be able to plug into private home power for a > > reasonable subset of the population. > > >=20 > I love it, short and simple. I'll start printing this heuristic onto a > durable plastic card and we can start distributing them to all the VCF > attendees so they can properly determine whether a computer is personal or > not. We'll then have to establish a standards organization to ensure that > people are properly trained on how to read expense reports, go through > corporate books, compute depreciation (and power usage, which will require > electronics training), etc. >=20 >=20 > > ** There could be tax reasons/dodges (not saying they are legal): (1) a > > small business could expense them immediately (vs depreciate over years) = by > > titling them in employees' or families' names, (2) a private individual > > could depreciate even though not actually doing any significant amount of > > income earning work on them (3) would have been expensed/depreciated but > > not enough income to be of any advantage, (4) probably many others, ask a > > shady tax lawyer. > > > > --Carey > > > > > How about can we be done with this now? :D >=20 > Sellam --===============5881759487736764785==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 28 22:39:54 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 15:39:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1572365854.1107777.1716934276236@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9041855142307446550==" --===============9041855142307446550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 28 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > I'll make it simple. > if a computer is being purchased by a non-human, i.e. corporation, to be > used to benefit the corporation, it is NOT a personal computer. > Corporations tend to buy things on purchase orders, including open > ended, for hundreds or thousands at a time. I don't agree with you about that being relevant to the issue, but, you have made a good case for your point of view. > One way to determine if it is being used for business or not is if it is > depreciated. In MOST cases, if it is being depreciated (or perhaps even > expensed), then it is a BUSINESS computer. Simple Tax law. Aside from > tax cheats, it is ILLEGAL to depreciate a computer UNLESS IT IS BEING > USED FOR BUSINESS, and therefore NOT personally. I don't see depreciation as being as significant as you do. In fact, the IRS auditor (audit was triggered by space rentals, not equipment, and the end result of the audit was they owed me almost $100!) agreed that 90% of necessity of use being in first year, with the remaining 10% spread out over 10 years (asymptotically) SHOULD in theory be "accelerated depreciation" but that it was acceptable to just expense it in that case. > I presume when Apple gave computers to schools, they were considered a > donation, not depreciated or expensed. IRS blocked the large Apple donation plan, due to disagreement over amount of deduction. > If a computer is being purchased by a human, for the use of a few humans > and not for their primary livelihood, it is a personal computer. yes > I won't quibble the exact transition point for someone who does the > books for his home business as well as play games on the device. we will probably never come up with a well-defined transition point. But, we can agree that there are some situations of overlap. > BECAUSE as long as 10% of purchases are for use as a PERSONAL COMPUTER, > then I will call it a personal computer, even if 90% of the purchases, > (and 99.9% of the computers, because each business purchase is for 500 > computers). alas, we are stuck who pays for it, rather than what it is used for. The machines that the college gave to the professors were used well over 90% for personal use, although the college had paid for them (and mis-negotiated the purchase). The purchase and distribution were in exchange for other concessions by the union, and the college acknowledged that they were for personal use by the professors. That's certainly a case that falls between your and my criteria. > If you want to quibble the 10%, fine, I don't have the energy or desire > to fight it out, but it is NOT reasonable to say that if JUST A SINGLE > ONE of the computer type was being ised not-for-business, for two > months, 6 years ago, then it is a personal computer. the specific number is of relatively less importance. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============9041855142307446550==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue May 28 22:57:43 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 17:31:04 -0500 Message-ID: <01126f84-e02f-4f5b-bc91-7155a70f8b38@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5111826459851789924==" --===============5111826459851789924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Fred, I'm sorry but those arguments are religion to most of us and the clear answer has already been decided (tongue firmly implanted in cheek)😛 1.  Between Vi and EMACS - Any editor where you have a cursor movement mode that is separate from edit mode (since the invention of arrow keys or the control key) just isn't a real editor. 2.  Between Big Endian and Little Endian - Big endian is easier to read for us dumb humans but little endian was easier to implement on early hardware.      I want to add to this argument and ask Is bit 0 the high order bit (like on the PDP-8) or the low order bit (like on the 6809)? 3.  Between the 6502 and the Z-80 the 6809 wins hands down every time. As for the first personal computer, no one has been able refuted my claim that the Antikythera Mechanism is not only the first Personal Computer but also first portable computer 🤣 On 5/28/2024 5:10 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 28 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> How about can we be done with this now? :D > > Sorry, but "FIRST" and "PERSONAL" are permanent topics, > along with emacs V VI, big-endian/little-endian, Mac/PC, > 6502/Z80, etc. > --===============5111826459851789924==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Tue May 28 23:09:14 2024 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 00:08:58 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1650143099693022981==" --===============1650143099693022981== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:08 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > "If your working television sits on top of your non-working television, > you might be a redneck." - Jeff Foxworthy > > As a child. my parents weren't sufficiently enamoured of televisions to buy one, but I was given some old ones. The one on the bottom had working sound and the one on the top had working video. --===============1650143099693022981==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 28 23:16:54 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 16:16:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7228549203389044765==" --===============7228549203389044765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> "If your working television sits on top of your non-working television, >> you might be a redneck." - Jeff Foxworthy On Wed, 29 May 2024, Adrian Godwin wrote: > As a child. my parents weren't sufficiently enamoured of televisions to buy > one, but I was given some old ones. > The one on the bottom had working sound and the one on the top had working > video. When the TV wasn't working, and seemingly unrepariable (drugstore tube testers), my father would buy another cheap old working TV from Goodwill, etc. A significant part of the time, that meant not having a working one. So, my brother and I pooled our money to buy a 19" "portable" Philco. My father chipped in the balance for the UHF option ("educational" TV was UHF in those days). I remember watching the "Cuban Missile Crisis" on it. I also remember going down Massachusetts avenue in the middle of the night, and all embassies had all of their lights on all night. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7228549203389044765==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 28 23:29:48 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 17:29:36 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240528122337.0000389b@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0626700030664068592==" --===============0626700030664068592== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-05-28 1:23 p.m., John via cctalk wrote: > So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why? I am grumpy about OS's like MSDOS, in that programs kept by passing DOS to handle screen, and serial IO. I also favor OS's that don't require one to build a file control block. --===============0626700030664068592==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue May 28 23:39:42 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 19:39:35 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5736938c-da03-42da-9e8f-25e0e3b521de@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0815345455019123736==" --===============0815345455019123736== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 28, 2024, at 5:49 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >=20 > Paul, you said: > I'd say an OS is a software system that runs on bare metal (or equivalent,= like a VM) and offers a set of services intended to make creating and runnin= g applications easier. In that sense, RT-11 SJ or OS/360 PCP are operating s= ystems, just as Linux is. QRQ is on the edge (it's written for a single appl= ication). Similarly, I would not call FIG-FORTH an OS, nor those other FORTH= systems, though admittedly it's also a bit fuzzy. >=20 > If the file system and basic I/O functions drivers are in ROM what is the d= ifference between a BIOS and an Operating System. >=20 > Technically speaking, for some, the BIOS offers a hardware abstraction leve= l to some more generic software that runs on top. BIOS means Basic Input Out= put System. Is that restricted to the console only? Some systems run their = entire "Operating System" out of ROM? Well, sure. The memory used is irrelevant to what the software does (other t= han details like mutability, so if you have ROM you have to separate the R/W = data from the rest, while if it's all in RAM that isn't necessary). Operatin= g systems have been found in ROM, RAM, drums, tapes, and any number of other = memory devices. > Let's take a very simple computer, the HP-41C Calculator. The internal 12K= or ROM handled all of the keypad I/O, display I/O, math functions and progra= mming functions. Each device added contained all of it's drivers in ROM. Th= ere was never an "Operating System" to load but with additonal hardware/softw= are modules even reading and writing to floppy disks and mini data cassettes = was supported. The 12K main ROM and how the expansion hardware/ROM integrate= d into it was definitely an operating system. >=20 > On the IBM-PC most boards (that were not just multi I/O or RAM boards) came= with their own drivers in ROM as well and were even called bios extensions. = The big difference between the PC and the HP-41C that the PC needed to load = the file system handler (and others as time when on) from disk to run. Where= as the HP-41C never needed to "bootstrap" from some kind of media. >=20 > By your definition many BIOS's are really operating systems. And if I real= ly want to pick nits, what you defined as an Operating System is really an ap= plication that uses the BIOS Operating System. Yes, I know, not all BIOS's h= ave enough functionality to qualify as an operating system. A BIOS is more likely a helper, providing bootstrap services and some I/O sup= port. That goes back to the first BIOS, around 1958 in the Electrologica X-1= . In fact, that's an interesting one: it was written by Dijkstra as his Ph.D= . project to abstract the then very new and daunting problem of dealing with = interrupts. The BIOS would do this, and other code could then use those APIs= to do I/O more easily without worrying about asynchronous pain. It also contained a simpler assembler/loader as well as operator console serv= ices. > To spark even further debate, does an operating system require file system = capabilities. Many do not. This furthers my supposition that the BIOS is re= ally the operating system and what you are calling an operating system is mer= ely an application using the BIOS API for the required services.=F0=9F=99=82 Does something need file system features to be an OS? Certainly not. Many R= TOS have plenty of stuff in them to be judged an OS without much debate, yet = are used in embedded products where a file system is not needed. For that matter, one of the first and properly famous operating systems, Dijk= stra's THE operating system that gave us semaphores, ring design, and various= other things, did not have a file system. > My comments are not intended to inflame but rather to cause further discuss= ion. paul --===============0815345455019123736==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 28 23:44:46 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 16:44:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3907327515323429687==" --===============3907327515323429687== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why? On Tue, 28 May 2024, ben via cctalk wrote: > I am grumpy about OS's like MSDOS, in that programs kept by passing > DOS to handle screen, and serial IO. > I also favor OS's that don't require one to build a file control block. Is it not "Real", if it is just crappy? It was possible to handle screen through MS-DOS, or using ANS.SYS, but, you had to go below DOS to the BIOS, or even direct to hardware to get acceptable performance. MS-DOS 1.xx used CP/M-like File Control Blocks, and the Program Segment Prefix contained the content of the command line (at 80h), and unopened FCBs parsed from the first two command line arguments, at 5Ch and 6Ch BUT, MS-DOS 2.xx still had all of that, but implemented unix-like file handles, so programming could be done without requiring one to build a File Control Block. Is it not "Real", if it is just crappy? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3907327515323429687==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 28 23:45:19 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 16:45:09 -0700 Message-ID: <7d0e045e-d9cc-4312-abae-36c29cf40b9c@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1391419296193108217==" --===============1391419296193108217== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/28/24 16:29, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-05-28 1:23 p.m., John via cctalk wrote: > >> So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why? > > I am grumpy about OS's like MSDOS, in that programs kept by passing > DOS to handle screen, and serial IO. > I also favor OS's that don't require one to build a file control block. Do you mean like MSDOS (later functions use file handles, not FCBs)? Been like that since about DOS 2.0... --Chuck . --===============1391419296193108217==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 29 00:02:35 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 18:02:15 -0600 Message-ID: <36aecd0c-174b-4eb6-9467-60c9781ea186@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <7d0e045e-d9cc-4312-abae-36c29cf40b9c@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2156220556147322765==" --===============2156220556147322765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-05-28 5:45 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/28/24 16:29, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 2024-05-28 1:23 p.m., John via cctalk wrote: >> >>> So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why? >> >> I am grumpy about OS's like MSDOS, in that programs kept by passing >> DOS to handle screen, and serial IO. >> I also favor OS's that don't require one to build a file control block. > > Do you mean like MSDOS (later functions use file handles, not FCBs)? > Been like that since about DOS 2.0... > > --Chuck > True, but serial IO was never fixed to my knowledge to use interrupts. --===============2156220556147322765==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 29 00:06:17 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 17:06:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1007116111112282678==" --===============1007116111112282678== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 28 May 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> If the file system and basic I/O functions drivers are in ROM what is the = difference between a BIOS and an Operating System. >> Technically speaking, for some, the BIOS offers a hardware abstraction lev= el to some more generic software that runs on top. BIOS means Basic Input Ou= tput System. Is that restricted to the console only? Some systems run their= entire "Operating System" out of ROM? > Well, sure. The memory used is irrelevant to what the software does (other= than details like mutability, so if you have ROM you have to separate the R/= W data from the rest, while if it's all in RAM that isn't necessary). Operat= ing systems have been found in ROM, RAM, drums, tapes, and any number of othe= r memory devices. >> Let's take a very simple computer, the HP-41C Calculator. The internal 12= K or ROM handled all of the keypad I/O, display I/O, math functions and progr= amming functions. Each device added contained all of it's drivers in ROM. T= here was never an "Operating System" to load but with additonal hardware/soft= ware modules even reading and writing to floppy disks and mini data cassettes= was supported. The 12K main ROM and how the expansion hardware/ROM integrat= ed into it was definitely an operating system. > . . .=20 >> By your definition many BIOS's are really operating systems. And if I rea= lly want to pick nits, what you defined as an Operating System is really an a= pplication that uses the BIOS Operating System. Yes, I know, not all BIOS's = have enough functionality to qualify as an operating system. > A BIOS is more likely a helper, providing bootstrap services and some I/O s= upport. That goes back to the first BIOS, around 1958 in the Electrologica X= -1. In fact, that's an interesting one: it was written by Dijkstra as his Ph= .D. project to abstract the then very new and daunting problem of dealing wit= h interrupts. The BIOS would do this, and other code could then use those AP= Is to do I/O more easily without worrying about asynchronous pain. "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres: BIOS, BDOS, Command processor" In CP/M, MS-DOS, there are three layers of the OS, BIOS is the hardware management layer. It consists of ROM(s), supplemented by files loaded at boot time (IO.SYS=20 or IBMBIO.COM) ROM VS disk file(s) is irrelevant; Poqet (MS-DOS 5.00) and=20 Atari Portfolio (Atari imitation MS-DOS) put the entire OS in ROM.=20 Different hardware requires a different BIOS, but not necessarily changes=20 in the upper layers. BIOS also includes the initial layer of the bootstrap code, that loads=20 the boot sector of the disk into RAM and sends control to it. BDOS is the file management layer, and the central/core layer of the OS (MSDOS.SYS or IBMDOS.COM) Many BDOS functions (Int 21h) call BIOS functions. Command processor (COMMAND.COM) communicates with the user, parsing=20 commands, rendering messages, launching programs, and calling functions in=20 BDOS. In theory, all communication between user and OS or hardware is through=20 COMMAND.COM, or running application programs. In actuality, "going through channels" as a "well behaved program" isn't=20 adequate performance, so many/most prograams bypass one or more layers of=20 the OS. MS-DOS/PC-DOS documentation included explanation of what was required to=20 write your own replacement for COMMAND.COM! Windows 1x, 2x, 3x took over the functions of COMMAND.COM. Windows NT, 9x, etc. blurred the boundaries of the layers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1007116111112282678==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed May 29 00:13:35 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 17:13:23 -0700 Message-ID: <82c4525b-b91a-43ee-971e-a9c95c6af664@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <36aecd0c-174b-4eb6-9467-60c9781ea186@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8239194484513293119==" --===============8239194484513293119== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/28/24 17:02, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-05-28 5:45 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 5/28/24 16:29, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2024-05-28 1:23 p.m., John via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why? >>> >>> I am grumpy about OS's like MSDOS, in that programs kept by passing >>> DOS to handle screen, and serial IO. >>> I also favor OS's that don't require one to build a file control block. >> >> Do you mean like MSDOS (later functions use file handles, not FCBs)? >> Been like that since about DOS 2.0... >> >> --Chuck >> > True, but serial IO was never fixed to my knowledge to use interrupts. There were several device drivers that hooked the BIOS interrupt and used interrupt servicing. Lots of comm programs simply internalized the serial i/O driver code, just like the screen display code. No big deal --Chuck --===============8239194484513293119==-- From js@cimmeri.com Wed May 29 00:42:45 2024 From: js@cimmeri.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 19:35:11 -0500 Message-ID: <9b30f2da-af1a-17f8-44ed-7d031d444e70@cimmeri.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6344568738249886790==" --===============6344568738249886790== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/28/2024 6:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 29 May 2024, Adrian Godwin wrote: >> As a child. my parents weren't sufficiently enamoured of televisions >> to buy >> one, but I was given some old ones. >> The one on the bottom had working sound and the one on the top had >> working >> video. > > When the TV wasn't working, and seemingly unrepariable (drugstore tube > testers), my father would buy another cheap old working TV from > Goodwill, etc. > > A significant part of the time, that meant not having a working one. > > So, my brother and I pooled our money to buy a 19" "portable" Philco.  > My father chipped in the balance for the UHF option ("educational" TV > was UHF in those days). > > I remember watching the "Cuban Missile Crisis" on it. > I also remember going down Massachusetts avenue in the middle of the > night, and all embassies had all of their lights on all night. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com Not sure it's the same model you had, but I have several of those 19" Philcos, at least one is still working.  The others, I'll repair. --===============6344568738249886790==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed May 29 01:06:25 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] TVs [was: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 20:06:20 -0500 Message-ID: <612376084.1112335.1716944780629@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <9b30f2da-af1a-17f8-44ed-7d031d444e70@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8508952406194069623==" --===============8508952406194069623== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We spent 64-65 in japan, bought a TV, brought it back, channels were differen= t, so i bought a surplus tv tuner at that place on elston in Chicago an repla= ced it. These were tubes. I started in electronics taking apart the 8" tv we were given, which had two = complete chassis, each with a hefty power supply, mostly full size tubes, IIR= C. 
--Carey
--===============8508952406194069623==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed May 29 01:54:20 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVs [was: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 20:54:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <612376084.1112335.1716944780629@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4076982584425122011==" --===============4076982584425122011== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe that place on Elston was either Joseph Electronics or The=20 American Science Center depending on whether is was in Chicago or Niles. On 5/28/2024 8:06 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > We spent 64-65 in japan, bought a TV, brought it back, channels were differ= ent, so i bought a surplus tv tuner at that place on elston in Chicago an rep= laced it. These were tubes. > > I started in electronics taking apart the 8" tv we were given, which had tw= o complete chassis, each with a hefty power supply, mostly full size tubes, I= IRC. > > 
--Carey
--===============4076982584425122011==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 29 02:12:14 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVs [was: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 19:12:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8621410087357906768==" --===============8621410087357906768== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What/when was the first personal TV? :-) --===============8621410087357906768==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Wed May 29 02:19:06 2024 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVs [was: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 19:18:56 -0700 Message-ID: <01ff3fe7-99be-4743-b9e6-dfaa49c91cac@mainecoon.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8239581339167230721==" --===============8239581339167230721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/28/24 19:12, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > What/when was the first personal TV?  :-) When someone slapped a handle on the top of a console and called it "portable"? Despite the fact that Fred was being cheeky, a serious contender is probably this tricorder-llike thing from the end of the '50s: https://www.earlytelevision.org/philco_safari.html -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…" --===============8239581339167230721==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 29 02:39:42 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVs [was: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 19:39:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01ff3fe7-99be-4743-b9e6-dfaa49c91cac@mainecoon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6066784033158887432==" --===============6066784033158887432== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> What/when was the first personal TV?=C2=A0 :-) On Tue, 28 May 2024, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > When someone slapped a handle on the top of a console and called it=20 > "portable"? My Philco from about 1960 had a handle, and was portable, But, I gave my parents their first COLOR TV (a used one) in the late=20 1970s. It was a large heavy box, but it had a handle on each end. So, "portable" might mean a loop on the top to attach the crane, or riser=20 blocks to give the forklift clearance? "personal" may be orthogonal to "portable". My "personal residence" is certainly not portable, . . . > Despite the fact that Fred was being cheeky, a serious contender is probabl= y=20 > this tricorder-llike thing from the end of the '50s:=20 > https://www.earlytelevision.org/philco_safari.html My grandfather had one of those! My cousin (David Unger) ended up with it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6066784033158887432==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed May 29 05:22:01 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVs [was: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 00:21:52 -0500 Message-ID: <2119739497.1115931.1716960112569@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6113298138569675683==" --===============6113298138569675683== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable EDI? just before the RR underpas, south of Foster? or, come to think of it, that long ago, the place sort of across from Allied = Radio at 100 N western Ave? back then, American science center was on Northwest Highway, south of Devon. 
--Carey
> On 05/28/2024 8:54 PM CDT Mike Katz via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =20 > I believe that place on Elston was either Joseph Electronics or The=20 > American Science Center depending on whether is was in Chicago or Niles. >=20 > On 5/28/2024 8:06 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > > We spent 64-65 in japan, bought a TV, brought it back, channels were diff= erent, so i bought a surplus tv tuner at that place on elston in Chicago an r= eplaced it. These were tubes. > > > > I started in electronics taking apart the 8" tv we were given, which had = two complete chassis, each with a hefty power supply, mostly full size tubes,= IIRC. > > > > 
--Carey
--===============6113298138569675683==-- From wayne.smith@wbd.com Wed May 29 05:43:11 2024 From: "Smith, Wayne" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 15:27:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <171682920897.2847341.14524116992345482143@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2739572799041507697==" --===============2739572799041507697== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did a bit of searching on Google Books and there is an article from the Jun= e 28, 1972 issue of ComputerWorld that states "Ever since Hitachi introduce t= he Hitac 10 as a 'personal computer' in 1969, not only the regular computer m= anufacturers but electric appliance, calculator, watchmakers, communications = and software companies, and even textile manufacturers, have plunged into the= minigame." While they are talking about minis, what this does show is that = the term "personal computer" was used prior to the advent of the Altair. --===============2739572799041507697==-- From lars@nocrew.org Wed May 29 06:03:42 2024 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Bit numbering Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 05:27:58 +0000 Message-ID: <7wo78pjig1.fsf_-_@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <01126f84-e02f-4f5b-bc91-7155a70f8b38@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0067262003664775498==" --===============0067262003664775498== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Katz wrote: > I want to add to this argument and ask Is bit 0 the high order bit > (like on the PDP-8) or the low order bit (like on the 6809)? It's the same across all PDPs... except maybe the 11, I'm sure someone will remind me. There are good arguments for numbering "bit N" such that its value is 2^N. With PDP-style bit numbering, it's quite awkward if you have several different word lengths so that bit 0 have different value depending on what kind of word you're dealing with. However, it's not entirely clear cut. In many situations data inside words are arranged "left to right" and in this case the PDP numbering sometimes is more convenient than the opposite. --===============0067262003664775498==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed May 29 07:44:07 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 09:43:56 +0200 Message-ID: <756cad3d-41e2-64c8-a2a8-5dda647da4e@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <119587767.1086672.1716908232289@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4774812526391271512==" --===============4774812526391271512== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 28 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG wrote: > Unless at least 5% (see quibbling below) of new purchases were by > private individuals, not required for their gainful employment, they are > "single user computers", not "personal computers". "Personal" is how > they are used, not how they could be used. In my opinion, the essential difference between "single user" and "personal" is the kind of physical access to the computer. A "single user" computer may run unattended in a lab, as part of a larger system, or as a special processor for data processing, whatever. In contrast to this, a "personal" computer is a machine where by design, you actually work in front of it and interact with it personally - not in the style of a systems' operator, but for all the tasks the computer should do for _you_. Christian --===============4774812526391271512==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed May 29 07:59:40 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 09:59:32 +0200 Message-ID: <5d799d54-d0fb-bd28-63e1-f538b204e65@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <1572365854.1107777.1716934276236@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8367911091412140201==" --===============8367911091412140201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 28 May 2024, Sellam Abraham wrote: > if a computer is being purchased by a non-human, i.e. corporation, to be > used to benefit the corporation, it is NOT a personal computer. So then, that excludes the IBM PC / XT etc... At that time they were mostly bought by corporations. Christian --===============8367911091412140201==-- From dave.dunfield@gmail.com Wed May 29 12:16:32 2024 From: Dave Dunfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 12:16:25 +0000 Message-ID: <171698498580.4006402.6248706349020584632@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <393644462.1099015.1716921266526@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7495498399841952701==" --===============7495498399841952701== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Always good to spark an "interesting discussion" "Personal computer" - Generic enough that it can have multiple interpretation= s: While technically somebody could have put a Cray1 in his (big :-) basement and used it for his own enjoyment (ie: a "personal" computer) ... I don't think I have ever seem such an arrangement promoter in a "marketing term". I tend to think along the lines of places where I've seen the term actually used in the industry: The most obvious is IBM - the "IBM Personal Computer" (5150) Perhaps there were others, but AFAIK this was a huge change in the way the most prominent company I was aware of at the time in the industry did business! Prior to the PC, IBM rented large mainframes which came with a whole support contract -- The first computer I ever saw was an IBM 360 at "University of New Brunswick" ** and I got to know the people to ran it and some of the IBM engineers who supported it quite well ** With the PC - IBM created a system that they could actually sell (and could be afforded by) most anyone who wanted a computer. Yes, MANY of there sales were to companies who wanted dozens of them, but they were offered in electronics stores, or could be ordered. Mits claimed to be the first to use term "Personal computer" which they used to reference their Altair - but most people are much more aware of the "IBM PC". And "along the way" I "personally" had a a few full-rack systems in my own basement (actually - Dining room - at least till I got married :-) These induced a couple "Data General Novas", a few "DEC PDP-8's and PDP-11's" and a few others - but I never really though of these as my "personal systems" - to me at the time, they were "lucky finds of industrial computers" that I had managed to acquire! Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Perso= nal ** When I first "met" the universitys IBM 360, the only way for students to use it was with "punch cards", and a dedicates self serve room with a card reader and massive chain line printer. Then they got a room of Selectric 2741 printing terminals, after that one with serial CRT terminals and finally a row of five IBM 3270 page- mode CRT terminals across the end. I of course was the guy who was in there constantly, late at night, early mornings and weekends - learning about and putting the system through as many "tricky things" as I could! At one point I became friends with a couple of the operators, who told me than whenever the system went down, the first thing they asked was "Where's Dave"? And I had the pleasure (significant to me at the time) of seeing one of the 3270s being used by an IBM engineer who was running disgnostics and other system test/monitor programs (the kind of stuff I really wanted to see) - while the other four were being used by IBM engineers running a multi-user "tank game" that I had written (which really excercised page- mode updates to the terminals that had proven to be fairly upsetting to the stability of the system). I do recall one of the players of my game saying something like "I've never seem them used this way - quite cool!" --===============7495498399841952701==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed May 29 13:48:46 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bit numbering Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 06:48:34 -0700 Message-ID: <49b9e942-a339-40ab-92a9-0cbfac45bb2b@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <7wo78pjig1.fsf_-_@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4412016920486063064==" --===============4412016920486063064== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/28/24 22:27, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > However, it's not entirely clear cut. In many situations data inside > words are arranged "left to right" and in this case the PDP numbering > sometimes is more convenient than the opposite. The CDC STAR/CYBER machines were bit-addressed. When dealing with bit strings for the likes of control- and sparse-vectors, it's the only thing that makes sense, particularly when vectors can be very large. As the nominal word size of those machines was 64 bits and the preferred display radix was hexadecimal, it made for some interesting mental gymnastics when converting between bit, byte, halfword and word addresses (alignment requirements). The odd fallout from this was that when a word in memory was addressed, the most significant bit was the lowest bit address. --Chuck --===============4412016920486063064==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed May 29 13:49:14 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 08:49:05 -0500 Message-ID: <481876906.1123079.1716990545754@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <5d799d54-d0fb-bd28-63e1-f538b204e65@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6241743533578882676==" --===============6241743533578882676== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable something can be BOTH a "personal computer" *AND* "industrial computer" (or w= hatever term you want to use) I use cooking oil to start my charcoal grill, that does not make it NOT be fo= od.=20 I use vinegar and baking soda (separately) to kill weeds, that does not stop = them from being food. Old (purchased used) items are likely to be "collectors items". I have a pendulum time clock that prints up to 3 in and out times per day on = time cards for up to a week. When new they where not purchased by individual= s just to keep time in their homes, so that is an industrial collector's item. I have electrical insulators from old power poles. Nobody bought them new ex= cept maybe someone extending power deep onto their private property, and prob= ably then they still hired a contractor who made the actual purchase, unless = they were a current or retired power company power installer. So any collectors items, whether IBM 360 mainframes, early tube based compute= rs, or recent super computers, purchased when made surplus by their industria= l users, do NOT become redefined as "personal computers". Also, any hand made items, not produced, advertised, and sold are "specialize= d computers", not "personal computers" or "industrial computers". I think th= is includes the ESS switching computers produced by the Bell Telephone system= (though I don't know the specs, if they were switching only, and did not han= dle directories with alpha data, that disqualifies them. if they didn't do d= irectories, each central office must have had some kind of computer for that,= i doubt they would have done anything but build their own, again, not sold t= o public in quantities, so a "specialized computer". aside: AFAIK, nobody has talked about having telephone network switching comp= uters in their basement....any volunteers? I mean computers, not the circula= r relays, somebody had those in my college dorm and they used them to make a = "time tunnel" of sequential blinking lights down the hallway. A computer, such as the original IBM PC can be BOTH a "personal computer" AND= an "industrial computer". I remember that many said, when it came out, that= the IBM PC was the first personal computer, because IBM's entry into the mar= ket made it legitimate, before that they were just nerd toys. I am surprised= nobody here has promoted that. Probably IBM hatred? So, to set a line between a "industrial computer" and a "both kinds", I sugge= sted a limit that 5% (or 10%) had to be sold to individuals out of household = funds. And since companies purchased them by the truckload, I said each ORDE= R counts as one, so if 19 companies each order a lot of 1000 computers and 1 = individual buys one, that makes the 5% threshold. But PDP/1s & PDP/8s were we= re at most purchased by the 10s, and far probably only by a handful of indivi= duals so I doubt they would make the threshhold. I also suggested that another way would be to say if it was depreciated or ex= pensed (counted off against income) it was industrial. Yes, some people play= ed star wars AND used it in a home business for which they took it off their = income. I wouldn't think that many, but could well be wrong. 
--Carey
> On 05/29/2024 2:59 AM CDT Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > On Tue, 28 May 2024, Sellam Abraham wrote: > > if a computer is being purchased by a non-human, i.e. corporation, to be = > > used to benefit the corporation, it is NOT a personal computer. >=20 > So then, that excludes the IBM PC / XT etc... At that time they were=20 > mostly bought by corporations. >=20 > Christian --===============6241743533578882676==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed May 29 14:04:21 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: STUPID THREAD NEEDS TO DIE Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 07:04:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <481876906.1123079.1716990545754@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8220391574032136690==" --===============8220391574032136690== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 29, 2024, 6:49=E2=80=AFAM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > something can be BOTH a "personal computer" *AND* "industrial computer" > (or whatever term you want to use) > So now you've incorporated "industrial" into the mix in order to extend this stupid debate out even beyond the ridiculous place it is now. You are conflating and making dichotomous terms that aren't: "personal" vs. "business" is not a valid comparison here. "Personal Computer" is in fact a careless marketing term with no fixed and/or coherent meaning. I recommend you move this debate to ChatGPT. It has endless patience for this nonsense. I don't. Sellam --===============8220391574032136690==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed May 29 14:32:24 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 09:32:18 -0500 Message-ID: <1ceeb29a-8a3f-f6a4-5ffd-9b548e2311a3@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <393644462.1099015.1716921266526@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7314660654992327788==" --===============7314660654992327788== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/28/24 13:34, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > =20 > >> On 05/28/2024 1:05 PM CDT Sellam Abraham wrote: >> =20 >> What if a corporation in 1970 purchased an IBM 360 for each of their emplo= yees for their individual personal use? Now what? >> =20 >> Sellam >> > 1. I don't believe ANYBODY could purchase a 360. You had to lease them. In the early 1960's, that was quite true. Then, the US=20 government's General Services Administration got mad about=20 IBM's pricing and sued IBM.=C2=A0 It ended up with the "Consent=20 Decree" that required IBM to sell anything they made,=20 unbundle support and hardware, and also help competitors=20 make plug-compatible hardware.=C2=A0 There was a strong move=20 afoot to break up IBM, like the later Bell system breakup,=20 but it would have been more complicated and would have=20 wrecked a national resource. > 2. do you know of such a company? (with a significant number of employees, = not a lone entrepreneur). I figure asking means that maybe you do. and sinc= e I believe no 360 but maybe the model 20 (not a real 360) or the model 22 wo= uld plug into household power it seems unlikely unless a tax dodge. > =20 > 3. if it was one purchase order, it sounds like ONE for the personal comput= er tally, vs thousands for the not-personal tally. Remember we still need to= have enough computers to be 10% (or negotiated percentage) of the total prod= uced. One exception does not change everything. I seriously doubt any individual bought a NEW IBM 360, but=20 there are stories about people who bought off-lease or=20 retired 360's. If I had lived in the Boston area, I would=20 likely have bought a National Advanced Systems 360 clone.=C2=A0=20 When NAS closed, there was a broker's warehouse full of=20 those systems that went for peanuts. Jon --===============7314660654992327788==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 29 23:50:16 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PRIVATE: Re: STUPID THREAD NEEDS TO DIE Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 16:50:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1255988686434068172==" --===============1255988686434068172== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I apologize for my active participation in the offensive thread. Yeah, I just couldn't get past his insistence that method of purchase was=20 more important than use. Yes, CHATGPT could probably give a definitive answer to "When did Steve=20 Jobs invent the personal computer?" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Wed, 29 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, May 29, 2024, 6:49=E2=80=AFAM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk > wrote: > >> something can be BOTH a "personal computer" *AND* "industrial computer" >> (or whatever term you want to use) >> > > So now you've incorporated "industrial" into the mix in order to extend > this stupid debate out even beyond the ridiculous place it is now. > > You are conflating and making dichotomous terms that aren't: "personal" vs. > "business" is not a valid comparison here. > > "Personal Computer" is in fact a careless marketing term with no fixed > and/or coherent meaning. > > I recommend you move this debate to ChatGPT. It has endless patience for > this nonsense. I don't. > > Sellam --===============1255988686434068172==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 29 23:51:25 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PRIVATE: Re: STUPID THREAD NEEDS TO DIE Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)] Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 16:51:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2971180588921420866==" --===============2971180588921420866== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SORRY! That was not intended to go to the list. On Wed, 29 May 2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I apologize for my active participation in the offensive thread. --===============2971180588921420866==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Thu May 30 06:06:00 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 01:05:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <433de72d-788c-4597-8ba2-15456e5b18e5@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0619785953842071150==" --===============0619785953842071150== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Only because I thought it would be funny to hear ChatGPT's wrong answer. Here is ChatGPT's answer on the first personal computer. ME> What was the first personal computer? ChatGPT> The first personal computer is a bit of a debated topic, but one of the earliest and most influential examples is the Altair 8800, released in 1975. It was developed by a company called MITS (Micro Instrumentation and Telemetry Systems). The Altair 8800 was a build-it-yourself kit based on the Intel 8080 microprocessor, and it featured toggle switches and LED lights for input and output. This computer is often credited with sparking the microcomputer revolution and inspiring a generation of computer enthusiasts, including a young Bill Gates and Paul Allen, who famously developed a version of the BASIC programming language for the Altair. (Pouring gas on the fire, but thought it was funny.) On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 1:23=E2=80=AFPM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Could this be the answer to the question we have been studying? > > https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cleaning-crew-discovers-one-world= s-oldest-surviving-desktop-computers-180984399/?fbclid=3DIwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR= 0XLQ55t9rqdmPmIZ2G9wnk5PQyQBAPgIldqyWY1aSBSumxmnIxxj1pKB8_aem_AYsP2xUVa1G4_zU= 9npLd2aOC1SSXE13QtKIpVwLXoSfmIprnTqf2pwotD3ZeGgUwtxN5ggJxhF9_IcL815ePnMlO > > cheers, > Nigel > > > On 2024-05-28 13:45, Nigel Johnson Ham wrote: > > > > In line with my memories completely, Tony, although I was just a wee > > sapling back then. > > > > It is also where the terms 'A', 'B' and 'C' supplies come from, since > > there were three batteries per radio, grid bias, HT, and heaters. The > > grid bias battery lasted a long time since there was very little > > current drawn. > > > > And I have fond memories of learning to play the piano by gaslight, > > since the elderly spinster piano teacher and her mother refused to let > > the house be connected to the electric mains as they were afraid of it! > > > > Then of course there was the Ronan Point gas explosion which blew out > > a whole floor of a high-rise building in London that might have > > changed people's minds! > > > > 73 de Nigel ve3id > > > > > > > > On 2024-05-28 13:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > >> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06=E2=80=AFPM ben w= rote: > >> > >>> Just what is a gas radio? > >> A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity > mains. > >> > >> Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes > >> until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both > >> energy sources could easily be used for that. But then a large number > >> of electric appliances using motors started to appear, along with > >> other things, like radios that ran off the electricity mains (rather > >> than a dry battery for the HT supply (B+) and a single-cell lead acid > >> accumulator for the valve filaments). > >> > >> The gas supply companies were worried they would lose business as a > >> result and designed gas powered version of all the mains electrical > >> devices. One classis was the table fan which had a small Stirling-type > >> hot air engine to turn the blades. There was of course a little gas > >> burner to run the engine. The only problem was the heat of the flame > >> rather negated the cooling effect of the fan. > >> > >> Anyway, the gas radio. This was a wooden floor-standing console > >> cabinet looking like most other radios of the time. The bit I > >> repaired (for a museum, where I understood it would be run off a > >> normal electrical power supply for obvious reasons) was the radio > >> which was a normal-for-the time 3 or 4 valve (tube) set. There was a > >> speaker in the cabinet too. At the bottom was the power supply. This > >> consisted of a gas burner with a thermopile (array of thermocouple > >> junctions) on top to provide the valve filament and HT voltages. > >> > >> There was no flue. The combustion products were simply vented into the > >> room, And yes the gas burner was inside the wooden console cabinet, so > >> it was something of a fire risk to be polite about it. > >> > >> AFAIK they were never sold to the public, thankfully. > >> > >> -tony > >> > >> > > -- > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > > > > > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > --===============0619785953842071150==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Thu May 30 08:09:26 2024 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 01:09:06 -0700 Message-ID: <54FAA266-EB23-4585-8030-02874C9EAF28@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7013517764146144977==" --===============7013517764146144977== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m surprised you didn=E2=80=99t quiz ChatGPT until it refused to ans= wer and/or crashed. I understand =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D can use very =E2=80=9Ccolorful=E2=80=9D lan= guage when provoked and poked. ;) Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 29, 2024, at 11:06 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOnly because I thought it would be funny to hear ChatGPT's wrong a= nswer. > Here is ChatGPT's answer on the first personal computer. >=20 > ME> What was the first personal computer? > ChatGPT> The first personal computer is a bit of a debated topic, but one > of the earliest and most influential examples is the Altair 8800, released > in 1975. It was developed by a company called MITS (Micro Instrumentation > and Telemetry Systems). The Altair 8800 was a build-it-yourself kit based > on the Intel 8080 microprocessor, and it featured toggle switches and LED > lights for input and output. This computer is often credited with sparking > the microcomputer revolution and inspiring a generation of computer > enthusiasts, including a young Bill Gates and Paul Allen, who famously > developed a version of the BASIC programming language for the Altair. >=20 > (Pouring gas on the fire, but thought it was funny.) >=20 >> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 1:23=E2=80=AFPM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> Could this be the answer to the question we have been studying? >>=20 >> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cleaning-crew-discovers-one-worl= ds-oldest-surviving-desktop-computers-180984399/?fbclid=3DIwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAA= R0XLQ55t9rqdmPmIZ2G9wnk5PQyQBAPgIldqyWY1aSBSumxmnIxxj1pKB8_aem_AYsP2xUVa1G4_z= U9npLd2aOC1SSXE13QtKIpVwLXoSfmIprnTqf2pwotD3ZeGgUwtxN5ggJxhF9_IcL815ePnMlO >>=20 >> cheers, >> Nigel >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 2024-05-28 13:45, Nigel Johnson Ham wrote: >>>=20 >>> In line with my memories completely, Tony, although I was just a wee >>> sapling back then. >>>=20 >>> It is also where the terms 'A', 'B' and 'C' supplies come from, since >>> there were three batteries per radio, grid bias, HT, and heaters. The >>> grid bias battery lasted a long time since there was very little >>> current drawn. >>>=20 >>> And I have fond memories of learning to play the piano by gaslight, >>> since the elderly spinster piano teacher and her mother refused to let >>> the house be connected to the electric mains as they were afraid of it! >>>=20 >>> Then of course there was the Ronan Point gas explosion which blew out >>> a whole floor of a high-rise building in London that might have >>> changed people's minds! >>>=20 >>> 73 de Nigel ve3id >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 2024-05-28 13:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>>> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06=E2=80=AFPM ben w= rote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Just what is a gas radio? >>>> A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity >> mains. >>>>=20 >>>> Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes >>>> until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both >>>> energy sources could easily be used for that. But then a large number >>>> of electric appliances using motors started to appear, along with >>>> other things, like radios that ran off the electricity mains (rather >>>> than a dry battery for the HT supply (B+) and a single-cell lead acid >>>> accumulator for the valve filaments). >>>>=20 >>>> The gas supply companies were worried they would lose business as a >>>> result and designed gas powered version of all the mains electrical >>>> devices. One classis was the table fan which had a small Stirling-type >>>> hot air engine to turn the blades. There was of course a little gas >>>> burner to run the engine. The only problem was the heat of the flame >>>> rather negated the cooling effect of the fan. >>>>=20 >>>> Anyway, the gas radio. This was a wooden floor-standing console >>>> cabinet looking like most other radios of the time. The bit I >>>> repaired (for a museum, where I understood it would be run off a >>>> normal electrical power supply for obvious reasons) was the radio >>>> which was a normal-for-the time 3 or 4 valve (tube) set. There was a >>>> speaker in the cabinet too. At the bottom was the power supply. This >>>> consisted of a gas burner with a thermopile (array of thermocouple >>>> junctions) on top to provide the valve filament and HT voltages. >>>>=20 >>>> There was no flue. The combustion products were simply vented into the >>>> room, And yes the gas burner was inside the wooden console cabinet, so >>>> it was something of a fire risk to be polite about it. >>>>=20 >>>> AFAIK they were never sold to the public, thankfully. >>>>=20 >>>> -tony >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>> -- >>> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >>> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >>> Skype: TILBURY2591 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype: TILBURY2591 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --===============7013517764146144977==-- From stefano@mmcc.it Thu May 30 09:07:30 2024 From: Stefano Sanna To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Video/keyboard mono cable for Sun 386i Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 10:59:52 +0200 Message-ID: <24730750-bcaa-43e3-9d72-025cea98f00a@mmcc.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8778939065893717570==" --===============8778939065893717570== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi. I recently bought a Sun Microsystems 386i and I discovered (too late...) that monitor and keyboard are connected to the same D15 connector on the back using a "Y" cable (I had experience with other Sun workstations, this was first contact with Intel-based hardware). Unfortunately, I have not such a cable neither I was able to find any info on the web about the pinout/wiring; probably it would be possible to create the cable from scratch (assuming that no other circuitry was inside the original Y cable). Moreover, I discovered that there is more than one option for video boards (mono and color): therefore, there is more than a single Y cable to connect monitor and keyboard. Looking at the official Sun's hardware list, I found this item: 630-1621     386i video/keyboard cable but it does not specify whether it is the mono or the color cable. In any case, it seems impossible to buy it on eBay or similar. Does anybody have some information on how to rebuild it? Thank you. -s --===============8778939065893717570==-- From ejb@trick-1.net Thu May 30 09:51:33 2024 From: Richard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Video/keyboard mono cable for Sun 386i Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 19:43:43 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <24730750-bcaa-43e3-9d72-025cea98f00a@mmcc.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8879935781869635621==" --===============8879935781869635621== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi There, I have a cable attached to my Sun 386i. I used to have spares but sadly no mo= re. I don=E2=80=99t believe there is anything special in the cable. If I have an opportunity I can buzz through and let you know what each pin is= in the cable. Give me a week or two and if I haven=E2=80=99t reverted please do reach out Richard=20 Sent from my iPhone > On 30 May 2024, at 19:07, Stefano Sanna via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi. >=20 > I recently bought a Sun Microsystems 386i and I discovered (too late...) th= at monitor and keyboard are connected to the same D15 connector on the back u= sing a "Y" cable (I had experience with other Sun workstations, this was firs= t contact with Intel-based hardware). >=20 > Unfortunately, I have not such a cable neither I was able to find any info = on the web about the pinout/wiring; probably it would be possible to create t= he cable from scratch (assuming that no other circuitry was inside the origin= al Y cable). Moreover, I discovered that there is more than one option for vi= deo boards (mono and color): therefore, there is more than a single Y cable t= o connect monitor and keyboard. >=20 > Looking at the official Sun's hardware list, I found this item: >=20 > 630-1621 386i video/keyboard cable >=20 > but it does not specify whether it is the mono or the color cable. In any c= ase, it seems impossible to buy it on eBay or similar. >=20 > Does anybody have some information on how to rebuild it? >=20 > Thank you. > -s --===============8879935781869635621==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu May 30 09:53:57 2024 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Video/keyboard mono cable for Sun 386i Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 05:53:49 -0400 Message-ID: <41e78d19-43a1-404d-a790-0c20ffe28d4c@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <24730750-bcaa-43e3-9d72-025cea98f00a@mmcc.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8808740506381227831==" --===============8808740506381227831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have one around here somewhere. Sun built two cables, one was for the color boards (CGThree and CGFive) and the other was for monochrome systems (the D15). In the meantime you can hook a computer to the RS232 port and start running the thing headless to see what's there. Note, you're going to have to replace the timekeeper chip (or hack a new battery into it, there's docs on how I did that 30 years ago). I recommend wiring in a dual AAA adapter, that way you can replace the batteries every 15 or so years. Last time I fired up my three 386i's, two of the power supplies had blown up and one of the boards would not pass diagnostics. Of the supplies, one was hopeless so I hacked in a standard PC-AT supply board and got everything running (you don't NEED the -15 volts, but heck some ISA board you plug in will want it :-) and I figured out how to fix the other one by wiring in a new 12 volt kick starter supply to get the main supply up and running. I wrote up all of this on the vcf forum. Worth a read. If it's got a hard disk and it spins I'd recommend hooking it up to a SCSI adapter and doing a dd image of it first. Then you can figure out the partitions by whacking away at the image (I did this), then mount the volumes on another system, grab /etc/passwd, and crack the passwords in about 4 hours with john or a related tool. Once up, put it on the public internet and confuse the hell out of hackers. Have fun! CZ On 5/30/2024 4:59 AM, Stefano Sanna via cctalk wrote: > Hi. > > I recently bought a Sun Microsystems 386i and I discovered (too late...) > that monitor and keyboard are connected to the same D15 connector on the > back using a "Y" cable (I had experience with other Sun workstations, > this was first contact with Intel-based hardware). > > Unfortunately, I have not such a cable neither I was able to find any > info on the web about the pinout/wiring; probably it would be possible > to create the cable from scratch (assuming that no other circuitry was > inside the original Y cable). Moreover, I discovered that there is more > than one option for video boards (mono and color): therefore, there is > more than a single Y cable to connect monitor and keyboard. > > Looking at the official Sun's hardware list, I found this item: > > 630-1621     386i video/keyboard cable > > but it does not specify whether it is the mono or the color cable. In > any case, it seems impossible to buy it on eBay or similar. > > Does anybody have some information on how to rebuild it? > > Thank you. > -s --===============8808740506381227831==-- From stefano@mmcc.it Thu May 30 11:59:21 2024 From: Stefano Sanna To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Video/keyboard mono cable for Sun 386i Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 13:59:16 +0200 Message-ID: <59bbe6dc-bb63-441f-a62d-74db62fec458@mmcc.it> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6005785471645253063==" --===============6005785471645253063== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you! On 30/05/24 11:43, Richard wrote: > Hi There, > > I have a cable attached to my Sun 386i. I used to have spares but sadly no = more. > > I don=E2=80=99t believe there is anything special in the cable. > > If I have an opportunity I can buzz through and let you know what each pin = is in the cable. > > Give me a week or two and if I haven=E2=80=99t reverted please do reach out > > Richard > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 30 May 2024, at 19:07, Stefano Sanna via cctalk wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFHi. >> >> I recently bought a Sun Microsystems 386i and I discovered (too late...) t= hat monitor and keyboard are connected to the same D15 connector on the back = using a "Y" cable (I had experience with other Sun workstations, this was fir= st contact with Intel-based hardware). >> >> Unfortunately, I have not such a cable neither I was able to find any info= on the web about the pinout/wiring; probably it would be possible to create = the cable from scratch (assuming that no other circuitry was inside the origi= nal Y cable). Moreover, I discovered that there is more than one option for v= ideo boards (mono and color): therefore, there is more than a single Y cable = to connect monitor and keyboard. >> >> Looking at the official Sun's hardware list, I found this item: >> >> 630-1621 386i video/keyboard cable >> >> but it does not specify whether it is the mono or the color cable. In any = case, it seems impossible to buy it on eBay or similar. >> >> Does anybody have some information on how to rebuild it? >> >> Thank you. >> -s --===============6005785471645253063==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu May 30 12:29:49 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 08:29:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0284988532263652856==" --===============0284988532263652856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 2:06 AM John Herron via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Only because I thought it would be funny to hear ChatGPT's wrong answer. > Here is ChatGPT's answer on the first personal computer. > > ME> What was the first personal computer? > ChatGPT> The first personal computer is a bit of a debated topic, but one > of the earliest and most influential examples is the Altair 8800, released > in 1975. It was developed by a company called MITS (Micro Instrumentation > and Telemetry Systems). The Altair 8800 was a build-it-yourself kit based > on the Intel 8080 microprocessor, and it featured toggle switches and LED > lights for input and output. This computer is often credited with sparking > the microcomputer revolution and inspiring a generation of computer > enthusiasts, including a young Bill Gates and Paul Allen, who famously > developed a version of the BASIC programming language for the Altair. > > (Pouring gas on the fire, but thought it was funny.) > > I honestly do agree that in our modern PC world, prior to the smartphone anyway, the first major micorprocessor-driven microcomputer that was successful in the US is the Altair. This would be a fun topic for a series of online debates. There seem to be a few angles 1) First microcomputer of the modern style (desktop computer running home/small business applications) 2) First computer that was primarily used as a personal computer but not necessarily practically or large-scale 3) First inadvertent use of a computer as a personal computer (i.e. first application developed for personal use on a machine not originally designed for such a purpose) more? BIl --===============0284988532263652856==-- From stefano@mmcc.it Thu May 30 13:06:59 2024 From: Stefano Sanna To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Video/keyboard mono cable for Sun 386i Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 15:06:48 +0200 Message-ID: <3510b06c-e0ae-4384-8188-ab57e2dfa4a3@mmcc.it> In-Reply-To: <41e78d19-43a1-404d-a790-0c20ffe28d4c@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2349613943138019629==" --===============2349613943138019629== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi. I thought about using the serial connection (which should be enabled only if the video card is removed). Thank you for the advice about the battery: usual issue with SGI, Sony News.... :-) Unfortunately, the hard disk was been removed before I collected the workstation. Could you please share the link to your post on the VCF Forum? Thank you. -s On 30/05/24 11:53, cz via cctalk wrote: > I have one around here somewhere. Sun built two cables, one was for > the color boards (CGThree and CGFive) and the other was for monochrome > systems (the D15). > > In the meantime you can hook a computer to the RS232 port and start > running the thing headless to see what's there. Note, you're going to > have to replace the timekeeper chip (or hack a new battery into it, > there's docs on how I did that 30 years ago). I recommend wiring in a > dual AAA adapter, that way you can replace the batteries every 15 or > so years. > > Last time I fired up my three 386i's, two of the power supplies had > blown up and one of the boards would not pass diagnostics. Of the > supplies, one was hopeless so I hacked in a standard PC-AT supply > board and got everything running (you don't NEED the -15 volts, but > heck some ISA board you plug in will want it :-) and I figured out how > to fix the other one by wiring in a new 12 volt kick starter supply to > get the main supply up and running. > > I wrote up all of this on the vcf forum. Worth a read. > > If it's got a hard disk and it spins I'd recommend hooking it up to a > SCSI adapter and doing a dd image of it first. Then you can figure out > the partitions by whacking away at the image (I did this), then mount > the volumes on another system, grab /etc/passwd, and crack the > passwords in about 4 hours with john or a related tool. > > Once up, put it on the public internet and confuse the hell out of > hackers. > > Have fun! > CZ > > > On 5/30/2024 4:59 AM, Stefano Sanna via cctalk wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I recently bought a Sun Microsystems 386i and I discovered (too >> late...) that monitor and keyboard are connected to the same D15 >> connector on the back using a "Y" cable (I had experience with other >> Sun workstations, this was first contact with Intel-based hardware). >> >> Unfortunately, I have not such a cable neither I was able to find any >> info on the web about the pinout/wiring; probably it would be >> possible to create the cable from scratch (assuming that no other >> circuitry was inside the original Y cable). Moreover, I discovered >> that there is more than one option for video boards (mono and color): >> therefore, there is more than a single Y cable to connect monitor and >> keyboard. >> >> Looking at the official Sun's hardware list, I found this item: >> >> 630-1621     386i video/keyboard cable >> >> but it does not specify whether it is the mono or the color cable. In >> any case, it seems impossible to buy it on eBay or similar. >> >> Does anybody have some information on how to rebuild it? >> >> Thank you. >> -s --===============2349613943138019629==-- From stefano@mmcc.it Thu May 30 13:07:47 2024 From: Stefano Sanna To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Video/keyboard mono cable for Sun 386i Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 14:52:13 +0200 Message-ID: <27aaaab4-3b5f-406f-b859-cb5ab99bcc87@mmcc.it> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1250025390181024190==" --===============1250025390181024190== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [sending message again, with attachment replaced by a link:=20 https://www.mmcc.it/resources/misc/IMG_7975_video.JPG ] Thank you Richard! To use this cable, I need to replace my video card with a color one.=20 Please, see attached picture of the connector I have on my 386i. I=20 suppose that finding the video card is harder then the cable itself! :-)=20 However, this cable could be a good start for trying to do some reverse=20 engineering of the pinouts. Since the code I found is different, I supposed that we can assume=20 630-1621 is the code of monochrome screen/cable. BR. -s On 30/05/24 11:47, Richard wrote: > Oh and there is this > > > > s-l400.jpg > SUN Microsystems 530-1366-01 Monitor + Keyboard Cable 13W3 Mini Din8=20 > /A4 8 Pin=20 > > ebay.com.au=20 > > > > Which looks right > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 30 May 2024, at 19:07, Stefano Sanna via cctalk=20 >> wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFHi. >> >> I recently bought a Sun Microsystems 386i and I discovered (too=20 >> late...) that monitor and keyboard are connected to the same D15=20 >> connector on the back using a "Y" cable (I had experience with other=20 >> Sun workstations, this was first contact with Intel-based hardware). >> >> Unfortunately, I have not such a cable neither I was able to find any=20 >> info on the web about the pinout/wiring; probably it would be=20 >> possible to create the cable from scratch (assuming that no other=20 >> circuitry was inside the original Y cable). Moreover, I discovered=20 >> that there is more than one option for video boards (mono and color):=20 >> therefore, there is more than a single Y cable to connect monitor and=20 >> keyboard. >> >> Looking at the official Sun's hardware list, I found this item: >> >> 630-1621=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 386i video/keyboard cable >> >> but it does not specify whether it is the mono or the color cable. In=20 >> any case, it seems impossible to buy it on eBay or similar. >> >> Does anybody have some information on how to rebuild it? >> >> Thank you. >> -s --===============1250025390181024190==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu May 30 13:10:15 2024 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Video/keyboard mono cable for Sun 386i Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 09:10:01 -0400 Message-ID: <14462A8A-64BF-4A96-A560-A21A8A4C7A15@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <3510b06c-e0ae-4384-8188-ab57e2dfa4a3@mmcc.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9108217877660496277==" --===============9108217877660496277== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am at a conference just do a search on 386i and I should pop up On May 30, 2024 9:06:48 AM EDT, Stefano Sanna via cctalk wrote: >Hi. > >I thought about using the serial connection (which should be enabled only if= the video card is removed). > >Thank you for the advice about the battery: usual issue with SGI, Sony News.= ... :-) > >Unfortunately, the hard disk was been removed before I collected the worksta= tion. > >Could you please share the link to your post on the VCF Forum? > >Thank you. >-s > >On 30/05/24 11:53, cz via cctalk wrote: >> I have one around here somewhere. Sun built two cables, one was for the co= lor boards (CGThree and CGFive) and the other was for monochrome systems (the= D15). >>=20 >> In the meantime you can hook a computer to the RS232 port and start runnin= g the thing headless to see what's there. Note, you're going to have to repla= ce the timekeeper chip (or hack a new battery into it, there's docs on how I = did that 30 years ago). I recommend wiring in a dual AAA adapter, that way yo= u can replace the batteries every 15 or so years. >>=20 >> Last time I fired up my three 386i's, two of the power supplies had blown = up and one of the boards would not pass diagnostics. Of the supplies, one was= hopeless so I hacked in a standard PC-AT supply board and got everything run= ning (you don't NEED the -15 volts, but heck some ISA board you plug in will = want it :-) and I figured out how to fix the other one by wiring in a new 12 = volt kick starter supply to get the main supply up and running. >>=20 >> I wrote up all of this on the vcf forum. Worth a read. >>=20 >> If it's got a hard disk and it spins I'd recommend hooking it up to a SCSI= adapter and doing a dd image of it first. Then you can figure out the partit= ions by whacking away at the image (I did this), then mount the volumes on an= other system, grab /etc/passwd, and crack the passwords in about 4 hours with= john or a related tool. >>=20 >> Once up, put it on the public internet and confuse the hell out of hackers. >>=20 >> Have fun! >> CZ >>=20 >>=20 >> On 5/30/2024 4:59 AM, Stefano Sanna via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi. >>>=20 >>> I recently bought a Sun Microsystems 386i and I discovered (too late...) = that monitor and keyboard are connected to the same D15 connector on the back= using a "Y" cable (I had experience with other Sun workstations, this was fi= rst contact with Intel-based hardware). >>>=20 >>> Unfortunately, I have not such a cable neither I was able to find any inf= o on the web about the pinout/wiring; probably it would be possible to create= the cable from scratch (assuming that no other circuitry was inside the orig= inal Y cable). Moreover, I discovered that there is more than one option for = video boards (mono and color): therefore, there is more than a single Y cable= to connect monitor and keyboard. >>>=20 >>> Looking at the official Sun's hardware list, I found this item: >>>=20 >>> 630-1621=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 386i video/keyboard cable >>>=20 >>> but it does not specify whether it is the mono or the color cable. In any= case, it seems impossible to buy it on eBay or similar. >>>=20 >>> Does anybody have some information on how to rebuild it? >>>=20 >>> Thank you. >>> -s --===============9108217877660496277==-- From stefano@mmcc.it Thu May 30 13:12:01 2024 From: Stefano Sanna To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Video/keyboard mono cable for Sun 386i Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 15:11:52 +0200 Message-ID: <4811e750-a933-4cf3-b3ca-dc5e08e433ac@mmcc.it> In-Reply-To: <14462A8A-64BF-4A96-A560-A21A8A4C7A15@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3899633029300175310==" --===============3899633029300175310== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you! On 30/05/24 15:10, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > Am at a conference just do a search on 386i and I should pop up > > On May 30, 2024 9:06:48 AM EDT, Stefano Sanna via cctalk wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I thought about using the serial connection (which should be enabled only = if the video card is removed). >> >> Thank you for the advice about the battery: usual issue with SGI, Sony New= s.... :-) >> >> Unfortunately, the hard disk was been removed before I collected the works= tation. >> >> Could you please share the link to your post on the VCF Forum? >> >> Thank you. >> -s >> >> On 30/05/24 11:53, cz via cctalk wrote: >>> I have one around here somewhere. Sun built two cables, one was for the c= olor boards (CGThree and CGFive) and the other was for monochrome systems (th= e D15). >>> >>> In the meantime you can hook a computer to the RS232 port and start runni= ng the thing headless to see what's there. Note, you're going to have to repl= ace the timekeeper chip (or hack a new battery into it, there's docs on how I= did that 30 years ago). I recommend wiring in a dual AAA adapter, that way y= ou can replace the batteries every 15 or so years. >>> >>> Last time I fired up my three 386i's, two of the power supplies had blown= up and one of the boards would not pass diagnostics. Of the supplies, one wa= s hopeless so I hacked in a standard PC-AT supply board and got everything ru= nning (you don't NEED the -15 volts, but heck some ISA board you plug in will= want it :-) and I figured out how to fix the other one by wiring in a new 12= volt kick starter supply to get the main supply up and running. >>> >>> I wrote up all of this on the vcf forum. Worth a read. >>> >>> If it's got a hard disk and it spins I'd recommend hooking it up to a SCS= I adapter and doing a dd image of it first. Then you can figure out the parti= tions by whacking away at the image (I did this), then mount the volumes on a= nother system, grab /etc/passwd, and crack the passwords in about 4 hours wit= h john or a related tool. >>> >>> Once up, put it on the public internet and confuse the hell out of hacker= s. >>> >>> Have fun! >>> CZ >>> >>> >>> On 5/30/2024 4:59 AM, Stefano Sanna via cctalk wrote: >>>> Hi. >>>> >>>> I recently bought a Sun Microsystems 386i and I discovered (too late...)= that monitor and keyboard are connected to the same D15 connector on the bac= k using a "Y" cable (I had experience with other Sun workstations, this was f= irst contact with Intel-based hardware). >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, I have not such a cable neither I was able to find any in= fo on the web about the pinout/wiring; probably it would be possible to creat= e the cable from scratch (assuming that no other circuitry was inside the ori= ginal Y cable). Moreover, I discovered that there is more than one option for= video boards (mono and color): therefore, there is more than a single Y cabl= e to connect monitor and keyboard. >>>> >>>> Looking at the official Sun's hardware list, I found this item: >>>> >>>> 630-1621=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 386i video/keyboard cable >>>> >>>> but it does not specify whether it is the mono or the color cable. In an= y case, it seems impossible to buy it on eBay or similar. >>>> >>>> Does anybody have some information on how to rebuild it? >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> -s --===============3899633029300175310==-- From lukaskron@posteo.de Thu May 30 13:30:31 2024 From: lukaskron@posteo.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Punchcards Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 13:30:27 +0000 Message-ID: <171707582729.4006402.15586502172776776569@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6295067435883620375==" --===============6295067435883620375== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! This is my first message to this mailing list but I think this question is we= ll suited for here. My name is Lukas and I am currently living in Germany and I am searching for = punch cards preferable with logos/universities around the world. If someone s= till has some of such cards laying around I would love a message of your offe= r (off-list).=20 Highly appreciated as I am collecting them. Kindly Lukas --===============6295067435883620375==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Thu May 30 15:12:41 2024 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 11:12:20 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1911486565850032888==" --===============1911486565850032888== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not sure I share your definition of 'fun'... On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 8:29 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 2:06 AM John Herron via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Only because I thought it would be funny to hear ChatGPT's wrong answer. > > Here is ChatGPT's answer on the first personal computer. > > > > ME> What was the first personal computer? > > ChatGPT> The first personal computer is a bit of a debated topic, but one > > of the earliest and most influential examples is the Altair 8800, released > > in 1975. It was developed by a company called MITS (Micro Instrumentation > > and Telemetry Systems). The Altair 8800 was a build-it-yourself kit based > > on the Intel 8080 microprocessor, and it featured toggle switches and LED > > lights for input and output. This computer is often credited with sparking > > the microcomputer revolution and inspiring a generation of computer > > enthusiasts, including a young Bill Gates and Paul Allen, who famously > > developed a version of the BASIC programming language for the Altair. > > > > (Pouring gas on the fire, but thought it was funny.) > > > > > I honestly do agree that in our modern PC world, prior to the smartphone > anyway, the first major micorprocessor-driven microcomputer that was > successful in the US is the Altair. > > This would be a fun topic for a series of online debates. There seem to be > a few angles > > 1) First microcomputer of the modern style (desktop computer running > home/small business applications) > 2) First computer that was primarily used as a personal computer but not > necessarily practically or large-scale > 3) First inadvertent use of a computer as a personal computer (i.e. first > application developed for personal use on a machine not originally designed > for such a purpose) > > more? > > BIl --===============1911486565850032888==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Fri May 31 03:20:49 2024 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 04:20:43 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181052732B0C98048E7EB06E4E92=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7724675129656126710==" --===============7724675129656126710== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 20 May 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > The setup on the earlier monitors was sometimes call =E2=80=9CODB=E2=80=9D = , don=E2=80=98t know=20 > why. Was equivalent to setup. As a counterexample my first PC monitor had nothing like that. It was a=20 dual-frequency B&W CRT and only had three controls: a power-on switch, a=20 brightness control rheostat and a contrast control rheostat. That was it.=20 It accepted both interlaced and non-interlaced analogue video input, 0.7V=20 p-p, separate sync. Earlier on I came across numerous digital (TTL) input=20 PC monitors and they had similar controls. Some had additional rheostats=20 to adjust vertical position and sync. There was no setup in any of them. Maciej --===============7724675129656126710==-- From dave.dunfield@gmail.com Fri May 31 12:37:28 2024 From: Dave Dunfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ] Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 12:37:24 +0000 Message-ID: <171715904405.4006402.7434620416443202649@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <606069227.872447.1716221618125@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2829052900209707586==" --===============2829052900209707586== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CAREY SCHUG wrote: > I think I tried a game on a flatscreen, and had issues. I've seen this lots - I'm not sure its entirely "interlace" - I tended to thi= nk more of the fact that CRT's scan causing the "pixel dots" to flash at high speed (not det= ectable to the human eye, but detecting a such a frequency is definitely possible for a = bit of electronics. (Of course scan/interlace all contribute to the rate of picture = elements flashing - all depends on what the particular device looked for) For example, I had an NES with the "light gun" - this was a gun you could use= to shoot things moving around on the screen. When you pulled the trigger - the whole s= creen would flash - basically they quickly blanked it with only a small while square a th= e location of the moving item - during this time, they would look for a light image received by= the (fairly highly focused) gun at the refresh frequency - so you couldn't just point it = at a light source - it had to be the TV screen (or course you COULD fool it with a= nother source "blinking" at the right frequency - but this was beyond the knowledge/= ability of most who used the system :-) On an LCD TV - the gun didn't shoot! - LCD pixels tended not to be scanned/re= freshed the same way, and are also slower - so whatever scan frequency might have been used is= n't detectable. Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Perso= nal --===============2829052900209707586==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri May 31 16:08:07 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 17:07:48 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7479269303895155998==" --===============7479269303895155998== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 28 May 2024 at 22:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > We can never agree on the definition. The blind men are fixxated on > individual features of the elephant. You have a point. You usually do, Fred. I am surprised one thing hasn't been mentioned yet. Any computer can be "personal" if only one person uses it for their own private purposes, right? My first fiancée's dad had what he reckoned was the first mainframe in Norway. (And Norway was, I believe, the first country outside North America on the internet.) He worked for the state oil company and persuaded them that having _a computer_ for modelling and so on was worth it. So they bought one and gave it to him. It took the whole floor of the building below his office. He had some serious clout. But they didn't have a plan for what to do with it, so for its first year or so, he was the sole user, learning what it could do, what languages it supported, etc. He died about 20Y ago now so I can't ask him, but IIRC, by the time he did his feasibility report, it was largely obsolete so it was never really used and they bought another, newer one for actual production. He thought it was hilarious that this multi-million-krone machine was his personal computer. It would probably fit the earlier poster's definition of a "real OS" which I thought was so spurious. But OTOH I would concur that things like that IBM APL machine that the legendary time traveller John Titor wanted wasn't a "PC" -- not a "real OS" but in the sense that it was a sort of glorified programmable calculator, not able to be used for general purpose use. If you can't write a letter on it, is it a PC? I suggest a somewhat arbirtrary rule: not merely needing a general purpose OS, able to be programmed but able to run applications for multiple uses including text editing, but simple games and things.... But intended for a single user. Not a departmental machine with 1 user. Not a multiuser box that happens to only have 1. And also not a brilliant inspired but ultra-limited thing like a Kenbak or some hexadecimal trainer. It needs to have a microprocessor to qualify. Microprocessors are what created the PC. No µP = not a PC. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7479269303895155998==-- From doc@vaxen.net Fri May 31 16:35:45 2024 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Windows, Was Re: Re: First Personal Computer Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 11:29:53 -0500 Message-ID: <1fc1062b-0ec0-4e8a-adf4-56c309a10576@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0355562063268907052==" --===============0355562063268907052== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/30/24 07:29, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 2:06 AM John Herron via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Only because I thought it would be funny to hear ChatGPT's wrong answer. >> Here is ChatGPT's answer on the first personal computer. > This would be a fun topic for a series of online debates. There seem to be > a few angles > > 1) First microcomputer of the modern style (desktop computer running > home/small business applications) > 2) First computer that was primarily used as a personal computer but not > necessarily practically or large-scale > 3) First inadvertent use of a computer as a personal computer (i.e. first > application developed for personal use on a machine not originally designed > for such a purpose) > > more? Can we do the "Which version of Windows is 'Classic' now?" flame war next? Pleeeeeeeze? Doc --===============0355562063268907052==-- From mark@matlockfamily.com Fri May 31 17:10:34 2024 From: Mark Matlock To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89 Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 12:10:17 -0500 Message-ID: <90644E37-9FF5-4F3A-A508-202A0CDB4EA2@matlockfamily.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9214850775135680539==" --===============9214850775135680539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In addition to the Goodyear STARAN computer, another tire company Firesto= ne did built some interesting one off systems of unusual design. My first job= out of college was with Firestone Central Research. While there, I became fr= iends with William Clayton who was one of three of their research fellows. He= was a big proponent of APL and there I was exposed to the MCM/700 (see https= ://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/apl/Brochures/MCM700Brochure ) and t= he IBM 5100 desktop APL computer as well as APL via IBM 360 timeshare. We use= d APL to simulate the heat flow and rubber curing in very large earth mover t= ires with finite-element techniques coupled with chemical kinetics. However, Bill Clayton most interesting work was around optimizing formulat= ions from designed experiment data. He built an analog computer that used sta= tic card readers that provided contacts to feedback resistors to simultaneous= compute the output of 16 second order polynomial equations with cross terms = for 8 independent variables. Each of these 16 polynomials had 54 static coeff= icients that were determined from second order statistical regressions of dat= a from designed experiments. One equation for example might be tensile streng= th of a rubber compounded with various amounts of sulfur, carbon black, oil, = accelerators, etc. Then another equation might represent wear resistance meas= ured from the same combination of compounding ingredients. The 16 equations h= ad upper and lower limits of acceptable values for tensile strength, wear, et= c. The analog computer would then begin an exhaustive grid search of the 8 in= dependent variables to find a combination of the 8 ingredients that met all 1= 6 of the desired output traits. When a solution was found the independent var= iable value voltages were read by an A/D controlled by a PDP-8 and then print= ed on a console. Thus the system was actually a hybrid computer part analog a= nd part digital. I was told that doing the 8 factor grid search in Fortran on= an IBM 360/168 would have taken 1300 hours but this hybrid system did it in = 5 minutes, Only three of these systems were ever built, two of which were use= d outside of Firestone (one by the Air Force).=20 U.S. Patent 3,560,725 from 1968 provides some background as it covered an = early version of the later more highly developed system. Mark > From: Paul Koning > Subject: [cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Protot= ype, Dies at 89 > Date: May 23, 2024 at 6:58:06=E2=80=AFPM CDT > To: "cctalk(a)classiccmp.org" > Cc: Kevin Anderson > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >=20 >=20 > I have a vague memory of visiting the Computer Museum when it was still at = DEC, in the Marlboro building (MRO-n). About the only item I recall is a Goo= dyear STARAN computer (or piece of one). I found it rather surprising to hav= e see a computer made by a tire company. I learned years later that the STAR= AN is a very unusual architecture, sometimes called a one-bit machine. More = precisely, I think it's a derivative of William Shooman's "Orthogonal Compute= r" vector computer architecture, which was for a while sold by Sanders Associ= ates where he worked. =20 >=20 > paul --===============9214850775135680539==-- From lists@skogtun.org Fri May 31 17:56:59 2024 From: Harald Arnesen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 19:56:46 +0200 Message-ID: <1bcd454c-3cd2-45dd-b866-7a0bf04e5098@skogtun.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7831209602725342260==" --===============7831209602725342260== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Liam Proven via cctalk [31/05/2024 18.07]: > My first fianc=C3=A9e's dad had what he reckoned was the first mainframe in > Norway. Was it this: - in Norwegian, machine translation work ok. --=20 Hilsen Harald --===============7831209602725342260==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Fri May 31 19:26:53 2024 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Windows, Was Re: Re: First Personal Computer Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 12:17:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1fc1062b-0ec0-4e8a-adf4-56c309a10576@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8925344461063807406==" --===============8925344461063807406== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On May 31, 2024, at 9:29 AM, Doc Shipley via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Can we do the "Which version of Windows is 'Classic' now?" flame war next? >=20 > Pleeeeeeeze? >=20 >=20 > Doc I=E2=80=99m rather partial to =E2=80=9CBow Windows=E2=80=9D, I feel they have= a rather classic look. Zane --===============8925344461063807406==-- From dave.dunfield@gmail.com Fri May 31 22:02:19 2024 From: Dave Dunfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 22:02:15 +0000 Message-ID: <171719293551.4006402.11973175277787545704@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0845556821303229982==" --===============0845556821303229982== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Liam Proven wrote: > It needs to have a microprocessor to qualify. > ... No µP = not a PC. Not entirely sure ... http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/primitiv Dave --===============0845556821303229982==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Fri May 31 23:38:38 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s) Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 19:37:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <171719293551.4006402.11973175277787545704@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0819220886162506168==" --===============0819220886162506168== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I quite agree. I do believe that a *u*P is the minimum that can be accepted to call a PC a microcomputer. Another is that it must be usable, i.e., non-programmable, for the average PC owner. Like a car one doesn't need to know how it works in order to drive/use a car to get from one place to another. One can use a computer to solve a spreadsheet problem in an efficient manner without learning the inner-workings of such spreadsheet. Happy computing, Murray 🙂 On Fri, May 31, 2024 at 6:02 PM Dave Dunfield via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > It needs to have a microprocessor to qualify. > > ... No µP = not a PC. > > Not entirely sure ... > http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/primitiv > > Dave > --===============0819220886162506168==--