From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 00:02:44 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 19:02:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <96078ceb1b3f4e13a0b65168ba13c3dd@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5042872778628964642==" --===============5042872778628964642== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do remember reading that=C2=A0 lot of British computers were quite superior= =20 to the rest of the world, but sold for inland use only.=C2=A0 The reason=20 given was that we couldn't figure out ow to make them leak oil! cheers, Nigel On 2024-01-31 14:05, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > <> > > One standard work is "The First Computers : History and Architectures" > Ed Rojas, et al > MIT Press; 2002; ISBN 0-262-68137-4 > US : 5 sections > Germany : 7 sections > UK : 5 sections > Japan : 2 sections > as an indication of activity > > <> > > In the UK context, where there is on-line documentation of the ICL 2900 ser= ies is a question I don't know the answer to > There is of course an operational ICL 2966 at TNMoC, Bletchley Park > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 31 January 2024 18:53 > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Wouter de Waal ; Paul Koning > Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal > > > >> On Jan 31, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Wouter de Waal via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> I have found that computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most i= nteresting were never available in the US. >> Computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most interesting ones wer= e TERRIBLE! > I wonder what fraction of early (before, say, 1955) computer work was done = in the USA. A substantial fraction no doubt, but perhaps not as large as one= might guess. A related question would be how much work was done outside the= USA and UK. > > For that matter, similar questions could be asked about the amount of docum= entation preserved from various countries. One difficulty, I think, is that = resources like bitsavers have a large proportion of US material. Maybe becau= se of the predominance of the work, maybe in part because of the distribution= of collectors. To pick one example, material -- even just a passing referen= ce -- about the Philips PR8000 is very nearly nonexistent. And I see no trac= e of any other Dutch computer at all on Bitsavers. True, some stuff can be f= ound in places like the CWI archive, though searching that can be rather pain= ful. > > paul > --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============5042872778628964642==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Feb 1 00:08:59 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:08:53 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7918180490441316084==" --===============7918180490441316084== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 31 Jan 2024, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > I do remember reading that  lot of British computers were quite superior > to the rest of the world, but sold for inland use only.  The reason given > was that we couldn't figure out ow to make them leak oil! > cheers, > Nigel Did Lucas make computers? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7918180490441316084==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 00:17:15 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 19:16:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1899195219960584067==" --===============1899195219960584067== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Enter museum in Switzerland has a nice library of docs. I found that museum to be chock full of interesting German and other computers. Worth the trip. Bill On Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 7:02 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I do remember reading that lot of British computers were quite superior > to the rest of the world, but sold for inland use only. The reason > given was that we couldn't figure out ow to make them leak oil! > cheers, > Nigel > > > On 2024-01-31 14:05, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > > < and UK. >> > > > > One standard work is "The First Computers : History and Architectures" > > Ed Rojas, et al > > MIT Press; 2002; ISBN 0-262-68137-4 > > US : 5 sections > > Germany : 7 sections > > UK : 5 sections > > Japan : 2 sections > > as an indication of activity > > > > < preserved from various countries. >> > > > > In the UK context, where there is on-line documentation of the ICL 2900 > series is a question I don't know the answer to > > There is of course an operational ICL 2966 at TNMoC, Bletchley Park > > > > Martin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > > Sent: 31 January 2024 18:53 > > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > Cc: Wouter de Waal ; Paul Koning > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal > > > > > > > >> On Jan 31, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Wouter de Waal via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> I have found that computers are much like motorcycles: many of the > most interesting were never available in the US. > >> Computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most interesting ones > were TERRIBLE! > > I wonder what fraction of early (before, say, 1955) computer work was > done in the USA. A substantial fraction no doubt, but perhaps not as large > as one might guess. A related question would be how much work was done > outside the USA and UK. > > > > For that matter, similar questions could be asked about the amount of > documentation preserved from various countries. One difficulty, I think, > is that resources like bitsavers have a large proportion of US material. > Maybe because of the predominance of the work, maybe in part because of the > distribution of collectors. To pick one example, material -- even just a > passing reference -- about the Philips PR8000 is very nearly nonexistent. > And I see no trace of any other Dutch computer at all on Bitsavers. True, > some stuff can be found in places like the CWI archive, though searching > that can be rather painful. > > > > paul > > > > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > > --===============1899195219960584067==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Feb 1 01:12:41 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 20:12:17 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0398115187629555473==" --===============0398115187629555473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/31/2024 1:14 PM, mark audacity romberg via cctalk wrote: > BBC BASIC is the best BASIC there ever was, and I feel sad for those who ha= ve never used it to see how powerful BASIC can be with proper structured prog= ramming. It=E2=80=99s honestly like a different language. >=20 Basic09? VAX BASIC? RSTS/E BASIC-PLUS? Microsoft was not the only BASIC provider in the US. bill --===============0398115187629555473==-- From mark.romberg@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 01:31:14 2024 From: mark audacity romberg To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 19:30:55 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB57371C3ED583ACF0FA3DBE6BED432=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9173995399701544187==" --===============9173995399701544187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suppose I should=E2=80=99ve specified =E2=80=9Cof the versions of BASIC I= =E2=80=99ve ever heard anyone talk about still using this century.=E2=80=9D :P --===============9173995399701544187==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Feb 1 02:04:07 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 21:03:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5baac880-4389-4c2e-89d3-3d78461daf79@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2189944017300162079==" --===============2189944017300162079== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/31/2024 8:30 PM, mark audacity romberg via cctalk wrote: > I suppose I should=E2=80=99ve specified =E2=80=9Cof the versions of BASIC I= =E2=80=99ve ever heard anyone talk about still using this century.=E2=80=9D :P Basic09 is probably still in use on OS9000. VAX BASIC is still in use on VMS ALPHA and Itanium and is about to be released for the recent port of VMS to x86-64. I personally know of a number of rather large production systems in VMS BASIC. RSTS/E is harder to say. There are still a large number of PDP-11 sites running using both real hardware and commercial emulator systems but which OSes they are using I can't say. Could be all RT-11 and RSX-11. But then, BASIC-PLUS and BASIC-PLUS2 both run on RSX-11 as well. I just don't have much experience with RSX-11 as I never really liked it. And none of this takes into account hobbyists like me who use all of them. bill --===============2189944017300162079==-- From jon@jonworld.com Thu Feb 1 13:33:26 2024 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 13:33:09 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <96078ceb1b3f4e13a0b65168ba13c3dd@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5833865082168206616==" --===============5833865082168206616== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > In the UK context, where there is on-line documentation of the ICL 2900 ser= ies is a question I don't know the answer to > There is of course an operational ICL 2966 at TNMoC, Bletchley Park Given the whole Post Office/Horizon scandal and that it was ICL that had the contract as they were absorbed by Fujitsu I'm wondering if we'll (TNMOC) be called upon to replicate the systems/bugs (or if we can get grant money for that.) Also, we need to think about digitizing our archives. --=20 -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============5833865082168206616==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Feb 1 14:37:40 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 09:37:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0236559415623752866==" --===============0236559415623752866== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 31, 2024, at 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The Enter museum in Switzerland has a nice library of docs. I found that > museum to be chock full of interesting German and other computers. Worth > the trip. > Bill Is any of that online? One frustrating thing about various museums is that they have stuff, but you = can't access it. For example, I know a museum with a collection of 1950s sof= tware on punched tape, but they refuse access to it for reading it.=20 paul --===============0236559415623752866==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 14:52:20 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 09:52:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0027544229913742417==" --===============0027544229913742417== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 09:37, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jan 31, 2024, at 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > The Enter museum in Switzerland has a nice library of docs. I found that > > museum to be chock full of interesting German and other computers. Worth > > the trip. > > Bill > > Is any of that online? > > One frustrating thing about various museums is that they have stuff, but > you can't access it. For example, I know a museum with a collection of > 1950s software on punched tape, but they refuse access to it for reading > it. > Generally I have found that access to special collections is conditional on having credentials that the museum is willing to accept. In that case I can imagine that the museum might be willing to allow inspection, perhaps supervised, but that they would not be willing to allow their media to be run through a punched tape reader because they were concerned about the possibility for damage. Did you talk to them about the possibility of some sort of optical scanning? -Henry --===============0027544229913742417==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Thu Feb 1 15:07:39 2024 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 15:07:02 +0000 Message-ID: <952665e9838246a08814011e1843bc9d@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6507519808527156914==" --===============6507519808527156914== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would an optical paper tape reader pass muster ;<) ... FWIW mine has variable sped and stop pedal capabilities, so you can be fairly= gentle / careful - the feed arrangements are most important Museum donations can be done well, see eg https://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archiv= e/pdp8/ProgrammesAndManualsList.html PDP8 tapes much of it standard stuff, with copies described as "written by", = but also locally generated programs - a seam to mine Martin -----Original Message----- From: Henry Bent via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 01 February 2024 14:52 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Henry Bent Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 09:37, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jan 31, 2024, at 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > The Enter museum in Switzerland has a nice library of docs. I found=20 > > that museum to be chock full of interesting German and other=20 > > computers. Worth the trip. > > Bill > > Is any of that online? > > One frustrating thing about various museums is that they have stuff,=20 > but you can't access it. For example, I know a museum with a=20 > collection of 1950s software on punched tape, but they refuse access=20 > to it for reading it. > Generally I have found that access to special collections is conditional on h= aving credentials that the museum is willing to accept. In that case I can i= magine that the museum might be willing to allow inspection, perhaps supervis= ed, but that they would not be willing to allow their media to be run through= a punched tape reader because they were concerned about the possibility for = damage. Did you talk to them about the possibility of some sort of optical s= canning? -Henry --===============6507519808527156914==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 15:12:22 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 10:12:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5D9AE1CF-5684-4323-8685-9AA26C359830@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6271411677752962383==" --===============6271411677752962383== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 10:08, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Feb 1, 2024, at 9:52 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 09:37, Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>> On Jan 31, 2024, at 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> The Enter museum in Switzerland has a nice library of docs. I found > that > >>> museum to be chock full of interesting German and other computers. > Worth > >>> the trip. > >>> Bill > >> > >> Is any of that online? > >> > >> One frustrating thing about various museums is that they have stuff, but > >> you can't access it. For example, I know a museum with a collection of > >> 1950s software on punched tape, but they refuse access to it for reading > >> it. > >> > > > > Generally I have found that access to special collections is conditional > on > > having credentials that the museum is willing to accept. In that case I > > can imagine that the museum might be willing to allow inspection, perhaps > > supervised, but that they would not be willing to allow their media to be > > run through a punched tape reader because they were concerned about the > > possibility for damage. Did you talk to them about the possibility of > some > > sort of optical scanning? > > Yes, a standard optical paper tape reader. And the proposal was to have > their staff supervise or operate, with us supplying the equipment and > delivering the results. > There's a term for that, I think it's called "hoarding." It's very unfortunate that museums run the range from institutions dedicated to preservation to, well, just a large collection that someone has decided to charge access for. -Henry --===============6271411677752962383==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Feb 1 15:16:15 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 10:08:01 -0500 Message-ID: <5D9AE1CF-5684-4323-8685-9AA26C359830@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7195977985858367167==" --===============7195977985858367167== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Feb 1, 2024, at 9:52 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 09:37, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jan 31, 2024, at 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>=20 >>> The Enter museum in Switzerland has a nice library of docs. I found that >>> museum to be chock full of interesting German and other computers. Worth >>> the trip. >>> Bill >>=20 >> Is any of that online? >>=20 >> One frustrating thing about various museums is that they have stuff, but >> you can't access it. For example, I know a museum with a collection of >> 1950s software on punched tape, but they refuse access to it for reading >> it. >>=20 >=20 > Generally I have found that access to special collections is conditional on > having credentials that the museum is willing to accept. In that case I > can imagine that the museum might be willing to allow inspection, perhaps > supervised, but that they would not be willing to allow their media to be > run through a punched tape reader because they were concerned about the > possibility for damage. Did you talk to them about the possibility of some > sort of optical scanning? Yes, a standard optical paper tape reader. And the proposal was to have thei= r staff supervise or operate, with us supplying the equipment and delivering = the results. =20 paul --===============7195977985858367167==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Thu Feb 1 17:36:27 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 17:36:02 +0000 Message-ID: <4QffSqcscutmB4J-YA200Yt3-_fpn5I6JUkvMBZregfniccpGBmG2Sk7D1Pp52HLqrHHN5ZWWosdCKwg69QwuO8Km0WrmiyhYDQ7M8Lie48=@virtadpt.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6184004461582555548==" --===============6184004461582555548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wednesday, January 31st, 2024 at 10:04, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Probably because Americans in Futtbuck, Idaho never heard of any British > computers but Brits certainly knew about American computers, eh wot? The only place many of us might (might) have heard of them was in the backs of _Micro Adventures_ YA books, because of differences in BASIC implementations. The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============6184004461582555548==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 18:17:06 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 19:16:46 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20240131203847.0b03ba20@mort.dW.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7115816393967667720==" --===============7115816393967667720== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 19:40, Wouter de Waal via cctalk wrote: > Computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most interesting > ones were TERRIBLE! Oh, very good. I may quote that. :-D -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7115816393967667720==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 18:20:00 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 19:19:43 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7102372749057822931==" --===============7102372749057822931== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 18:35, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > Surely by this definition UNIX would take the crown? The "core of the OS" > dates from 1969 and modern derivatives are everywhere. Good point, but the OS I was referring to is RISC OS, *the* original ARM OS and it has only ever run on ARM and nothing else. Nobody is making PDP-7s any more, are they? :-) I think the first C-based Unix was 4th edition. Are there any new PDP-11s? If that makes my point any clearer? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7102372749057822931==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 18:22:02 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 19:21:46 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1MAP2t-1rJzXI02bj-00BpbI@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5998647875374068958==" --===============5998647875374068958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 18:52, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > That would be very interesting. I always thought Apricot made some beasts a= nd remeber the cover of Byte for the first 486 system being an Apricot VX. I = would love to see that machine in person. I put one of those in. First and only SCO *UNIX* (as opposed to SCO Xenix) box I ever installed. But before we turned it into a server, we put DOS and Doom on it, very briefly. The built in UPS could power a VGA monitor and we had a bit of fun pushing each other along a corridor, one pushing the AVX/FT and one a wheelie chair, while running Doom on a PC that wasn't connected to mains power. The world's biggest "laptop". --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5998647875374068958==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 18:23:51 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 19:23:34 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2619980882167846497==" --===============2619980882167846497== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 18:35, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: To answer a different part of the question that I missed first time around: > As an American it's true that the vast majority of my vintage computer > experience is completely americentric, but I'm aware that Acorn had a > significant presence in the overseas market and that RiscOS is viewed > fondly. Perhaps it's time for me to find an emulator and experience the > system for myself. It natively runs on the Raspberry Pi and a 10 year old R Pi 1 will be fine, and will probably cost nothing nowadays. It's resolutely single-core anyway. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============2619980882167846497==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 18:26:33 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 19:26:15 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2606120087165957816==" --===============2606120087165957816== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 19:05, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Probably because Americans in Futtbuck, Idaho never heard of any British > computers but Brits certainly knew about American computers, eh wot? Oh, yes, naturally! It is something of a national characteristic, though. I had someone very seriously questioning me, over on Fesse Bouc, if I was serious when I said that the ZX Spectrum could remotely be considered a more significant machine than (one model of) TRS-80, and he was incredulous when I absolutely maintained the point. Only after the fall of Communism did we Sinclair fans discover that there was an entire international market in clones and compatibles of the little Spectrum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ZX_Spectrum_clones -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============2606120087165957816==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 18:28:28 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 19:28:11 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7051442588237594373==" --===============7051442588237594373== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 19:15, mark audacity romberg via cctalk wrote: > > BBC BASIC is the best BASIC there ever was, and I feel sad for those who ha= ve never used it to see how powerful BASIC can be with proper structured prog= ramming. It=E2=80=99s honestly like a different language. Strongly concur. I mean, QuickBASIC 4 was a good implementation, but it's on its way to becoming a different language. Whereas BBC BASIC ran from a 32kB 6502 machine up to multi-gigahertz-class Arms in gigs of RAM today, as well as on DOS, Windows, CP/M, Linux, macOS, and lots of other platforms. https://bbcbasic.com/ --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7051442588237594373==-- From ethan@757.org Thu Feb 1 19:20:43 2024 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 14:20:38 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0947137808813473521==" --===============0947137808813473521== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I had someone very seriously questioning me, over on Fesse Bouc, if I > was serious when I said that the ZX Spectrum could remotely be > considered a more significant machine than (one model of) TRS-80, and > he was incredulous when I absolutely maintained the point. We had the Timex version of the Spectrum in the USA, but it wasn't much of a machine. That probably ruined it so we never got the 2+ or 3+. Virginia USA reporting in, and so far I have the Spectrum 2+ (boxed) and 3+. They are cool machines but I think the Atari and Commodore beat it sound wise. But I *REALLY* dig the fact that you had cassette distribution of software at what looks like pretty low prices? That is really cool. I imagine game tapes in supermarket checkout lines everywhere. Remember when these machines were on the market in the 80s everyone relied on magazines for information, and those magazines relied on advertising dollars. No WWW. So it's not a big wonder that that Americans didn't know about these machines since marketing money wasn't spent here. Thanks to another cclist member I have purchased an A4000 Acorn via facebook marketplace, and am excited to finally get my first Archimedes machine. Hope the repairs needed aren't too bad! After that will be a BBC micro but really the A4000 seems like a killer machine. At some point I might try to find an A3010 as well, but the 4000 checks the boxes for me. It's pretty hard buying machines from over there, local collection only! - Ethan O'Toole --===============0947137808813473521==-- From ethan@757.org Thu Feb 1 19:23:12 2024 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB: x68000 keyboard and mouse Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 14:23:07 -0500 Message-ID: <36b2ba50-3c5f-1b6b-cf4f-fa0d6bf17b9@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4608134099881291689==" --===============4608134099881291689== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit USA here, anyone have a Sharp x68000 keyboard and mouse to sell? The one that I've repaired and am trying to complete is the desktop version, black, mini-din connector. -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============4608134099881291689==-- From wrm@dW.co.za Thu Feb 1 19:26:57 2024 From: Wouter de Waal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 21:26:39 +0200 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20240201212224.07586a30@mort.dW.co.za> In-Reply-To: <170681040987.2847341.12575199185673127159@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5449300860421774707==" --===============5449300860421774707== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >The drive works perfectly for double sided disks (using the >appropriate index hole). Yea, 8" drives are a bit funny like that. You know this, because context. Some future google-ologist might not. So. 8" drives have a different index position for SS and DS. In your case I suspect either the emitter LED or the receiver phototransistor ro maybe the wiring or what ever conditioning on the PCB is b0rken for the SS sensor. Assuming of course your drive has two sensors -- I have not yet owned an 8" drive like that, the ones I have had were dedicated SS or DS. W --===============5449300860421774707==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 19:34:34 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 11:34:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3123531542264460882==" --===============3123531542264460882== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 10:26 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 19:05, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > > Probably because Americans in Futtbuck, Idaho never heard of any British > > computers but Brits certainly knew about American computers, eh wot? > > Oh, yes, naturally! > > It is something of a national characteristic, though. > > I had someone very seriously questioning me, over on Fesse Bouc, if I > was serious when I said that the ZX Spectrum could remotely be > considered a more significant machine than (one model of) TRS-80, and > he was incredulous when I absolutely maintained the point. > > Only after the fall of Communism did we Sinclair fans discover that > there was an entire international market in clones and compatibles of > the little Spectrum. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ZX_Spectrum_clones > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > I agree, based on the very point you are making: the impact, influence and reach of the ZX Spectrum was by far greater than that of the TRS-80. Sellam --===============3123531542264460882==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Feb 1 20:43:10 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 14:42:59 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20240201212224.07586a30@mort.dW.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1880369066339249747==" --===============1880369066339249747== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The drive has 2 index sensors.  I've never seen a double sided 8" disk drive that couldn't read a single sided disk because it didn't have the single sided index sensor. On 2/1/2024 1:26 PM, Wouter de Waal via cctalk wrote: > >> >> The drive works perfectly for double sided disks (using the >> appropriate index hole). > > Yea, 8" drives are a bit funny like that. > > You know this, because context. Some future google-ologist might not. > > So. 8" drives have a different index position for SS and DS. > > In your case I suspect either the emitter LED or the receiver > phototransistor ro maybe the wiring or what ever conditioning on the > PCB is b0rken for the SS sensor. > > Assuming of course your drive has two sensors -- I have not yet owned > an 8" drive like that, the ones I have had were dedicated SS or DS. > > W --===============1880369066339249747==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Feb 1 20:51:29 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 12:50:53 -0800 Message-ID: <73186e1e-abe4-461c-b32c-d66bcfe831cd@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20240201212224.07586a30@mort.dW.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0376810101020159174==" --===============0376810101020159174== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/1/24 11:26, Wouter de Waal via cctalk wrote: > >> >> The drive works perfectly for double sided disks (using the >> appropriate index hole). > > Yea, 8" drives are a bit funny like that. > > You know this, because context. Some future google-ologist might not. > > So. 8" drives have a different index position for SS and DS. > > In your case I suspect either the emitter LED or the receiver > phototransistor ro maybe the wiring or what ever conditioning on the PCB > is b0rken for the SS sensor. > > Assuming of course your drive has two sensors -- I have not yet owned an > 8" drive like that, the ones I have had were dedicated SS or DS. 2 8" index sensor drives are common as dirt. Basically, if a drive is double-sided, it will have two sensors. Many also include a status output that indicates which sesnor is operational. --Chuck --===============0376810101020159174==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 22:36:05 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 17:35:46 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2539135854917725224==" --===============2539135854917725224== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 13:20, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 18:35, Henry Bent via cctalk > wrote: > > > Surely by this definition UNIX would take the crown? The "core of the > OS" > > dates from 1969 and modern derivatives are everywhere. > > Good point, but the OS I was referring to is RISC OS, *the* original > ARM OS and it has only ever run on ARM and nothing else. > > Nobody is making PDP-7s any more, are they? :-) > > I think the first C-based Unix was 4th edition. Are there any new PDP-11s? > > If that makes my point any clearer? > Yes, that does clarify things, thank you. Looking as a naive researcher, Wikipedia doesn't have any information on the ARM processor before 1981 or RiscOS before 1987. Do you have a source for your date of the late '70s? -Henry --===============2539135854917725224==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Thu Feb 1 22:51:58 2024 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 18:51:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1911586851426295980==" --===============1911586851426295980== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-02-01 4:42 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > The drive has 2 index sensors.  I've never seen a double sided 8" disk > drive that couldn't read a single sided disk because it didn't have > the single sided index sensor. > A double sided drive that can read single sided diskettes has to have two index sensors as the index hole is in different locations on a single sided diskette than on a double sided diskette. Paul. --===============1911586851426295980==-- From kiwi_jonathan@yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 22:58:06 2024 From: Jonathan Stone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 22:57:52 +0000 Message-ID: <1347124504.4201871.1706828272988@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6773251682070603202==" --===============6773251682070603202== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 02:36:10 PM PST, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 13:20, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 [....] Do you have a source > for your [[ first C-based UNIX (kernel ]] date of the late '70s? Bell Systems Technical Journal, 57:6, July/August 1978, Special issue on UNIX= .=20 Particularly "The UNIX Time-Sharing System", Ritchie, D.M., and Thompson, K. I don't, offhand, recall mention of 4th edition. But that definitely dates UN= IX in C in the 1970s! =20 --===============6773251682070603202==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Feb 2 00:16:34 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 17:37:15 -0600 Message-ID: <278473a6-210d-4ccc-b7ec-3acf7d1373de@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3214425885953099441==" --===============3214425885953099441== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Agreed, that is the crux of the entire thread.  The Double sided sensor is working and for some reason the single sided sensor isn't generating the index pulses. The original question was put out here to see if someone knew of a jumper that I missed in the service manual. The comment you were replying to was me responding to someone else. They said they had seen double sided drives that did not have the extra sensor and I said I had never seen that. On 2/1/2024 4:51 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > On 2024-02-01 4:42 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> The drive has 2 index sensors.  I've never seen a double sided 8" >> disk drive that couldn't read a single sided disk because it didn't >> have the single sided index sensor. >> > A double sided drive that can read single sided diskettes has to have > two index sensors as the index hole is in different locations on a > single sided diskette than on a double sided diskette. > > Paul. > > --===============3214425885953099441==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Fri Feb 2 00:32:11 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 16:32:27 -0800 Message-ID: <004201da556f$4d7205e0$e85611a0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4248869899914150610==" --===============4248869899914150610== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I put one of those in. >=20 > First and only SCO *UNIX* (as opposed to SCO Xenix) box I ever > installed. >=20 > But before we turned it into a server, we put DOS and Doom on it, very > briefly. The built in UPS could power a VGA monitor and we had a bit > of fun pushing each other along a corridor, one pushing the AVX/FT and > one a wheelie chair, while running Doom on a PC that wasn't connected > to mains power. The world's biggest "laptop". That must have been quite a workout as I have heard they weighed almost as mu= ch as a refrigerator. The built in UPS seemed to be a unique Apricot feature.= Even after Mitsubishi bought them out they kept including the built in UPS. = Which makes total sense for a standalone server back in the day before racks = became common. I have looked for one here in the US but haven't even seen a g= limmer of the machines. -Ali --===============4248869899914150610==-- From maxwell@buffalo.edu Fri Feb 2 06:42:10 2024 From: John Maxwell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 18:22:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5D9AE1CF-5684-4323-8685-9AA26C359830@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3564599071048013078==" --===============3564599071048013078== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or, they may let you for perhaps a donation (equipment or $$$) - just a thoug= ht. Only my $0.02, -John -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning via cctalk =20 Sent: Thursday, 1 February, 2024 10:08 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Henry Bent ; Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal > On Feb 1, 2024, at 9:52 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 09:37, Paul Koning via cctalk=20 > > wrote: >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jan 31, 2024, at 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>=20 >>> The Enter museum in Switzerland has a nice library of docs. I found=20 >>> that museum to be chock full of interesting German and other=20 >>> computers. Worth the trip. >>> Bill >>=20 >> Is any of that online? >>=20 >> One frustrating thing about various museums is that they have stuff,=20 >> but you can't access it. For example, I know a museum with a=20 >> collection of 1950s software on punched tape, but they refuse access=20 >> to it for reading it. >>=20 >=20 > Generally I have found that access to special collections is=20 > conditional on having credentials that the museum is willing to=20 > accept. In that case I can imagine that the museum might be willing=20 > to allow inspection, perhaps supervised, but that they would not be=20 > willing to allow their media to be run through a punched tape reader=20 > because they were concerned about the possibility for damage. Did you=20 > talk to them about the possibility of some sort of optical scanning? Yes, a standard optical paper tape reader. And the proposal was to have thei= r staff supervise or operate, with us supplying the equipment and delivering = the results. =20 paul --===============3564599071048013078==-- From steven@malikoff.com Fri Feb 2 08:23:24 2024 From: "steven@malikoff.com steven@malikoff.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 18:18:15 +1000 Message-ID: <1025776952.1531884.1706861895856@webmail-oxcs.register.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3913045154678749123==" --===============3913045154678749123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 02/01/2024 4:14 AM AEST mark audacity romberg via cctalk wrote: > BBC BASIC is the best BASIC there ever was, and I feel sad for those who ha= ve never used it to see how powerful BASIC can be BBC Computer 32K Acorn DFS BASIC >10 MAT A =3D IDN(3) >20 MAT PRINT A >RUN Mistake at line 10 > --===============3913045154678749123==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Feb 2 09:01:33 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 03:01:15 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1471274473762762279==" --===============1471274473762762279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not sure I can make it to that VCF SoCal. I'm still looking for a Sharp CE-510F floppy disk drive, that should pair with a Sharp PC-5000. Just the disk drive. Here my compiled info on the PC-5000 so far, for anyone interested. Sharp PC-5000 — voidstar https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000/ On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:45 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'll be attending VCF SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in the > capacity of a presenter (on a panel and a solo presentation). > > Is anyone else planning to attend the event? > > Sellam > --===============1471274473762762279==-- From abs@absd.org Fri Feb 2 10:06:42 2024 From: David Brownlee To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 10:06:25 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20240131203041.0b03b270@mort.dW.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2909730422974563448==" --===============2909730422974563448== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 18:34, Wouter de Waal via cctalk wrote: > > > >Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what > >make/model/config? > > I still use a couple of PPC VME boards (DY4 / Curtiss Wright 182/183/184, b= oth > Conduction-Cooled and Air-Cooled) to test the tail end of hardware that we = are > still shipping (by now EOL and basically NOS). > > But it's work, I don't find them interesting. > > If someone here has the warm fuzzies for PPC VME, we can talk :-) Other than a reflexive twitch to see if NetBSD can run on the MPC7448? :-p David --===============2909730422974563448==-- From bear@typewritten.org Fri Feb 2 10:14:04 2024 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Northstar - odd abuse of 5.25" hard sector floppy disks Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 02:12:49 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5771348045166998083==" --===============5771348045166998083== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recently acquired a stash of 5.25=E2=80=9D Northstar-related floppy disks. = About half are soft sector for the Northstar Dimension, the other half are 10= sector for the Advantage 8/16. There are, however, about a dozen 10 sector floppies all modified in the same= curious way: they have had a write protect sticker stuck over the index hole= . Some with the sticker on top, some on bottom; can=E2=80=99t think of any re= ason that would matter as blocked is blocked. But I=E2=80=99ll mention it. They seem to have something to do with the Dimension, maybe, as a couple of t= hem are marked with NetWare 1.1.1 related labels (all handwritten). There is = a set of what appears to be WordPerfect install floppies (though they don=E2= =80=99t say WordPerfect specifically) . A couple also mention the odd term = =E2=80=9Csmutched=E2=80=9D. One is actually labeled =E2=80=9Csmutch.exe=E2=80= =9D. Tim Mann=E2=80=99s Catweasel tool (cw2dmk) was unable to find any valid secto= rs on them, using the option to ignore the index pulse. I am aware that some = drives won=E2=80=99t enable data if the pulse is missing entirely but I used = a drive that doesn=E2=80=99t care (Teac FD-55BR - I have used it to read unpu= nched =E2=80=9Cflippy=E2=80=9D disks) and still got nothing.=20 Does the Dimension really not need the index pulse, despite otherwise using a= n apparently standard WD-style format? Is something else going on? Does any o= f this ring any bells with the collected wisdom of the list? What am I likely= dealing with here, if I want to recover the contents of these disks? Thanks. ok bear. --===============5771348045166998083==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Feb 2 10:37:06 2024 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Northstar - odd abuse of 5.25" hard sector floppy disks Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 11:36:48 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6035796022406442677==" --===============6035796022406442677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, could you please provide the images for the following software from your collection: - AQ-KZ18B-BE VAX/VMS V4.7A BIN TK50 - AQ-JG62A-BN MicroVMS V4.5 BIN TK50 - AQ-JT80A-BN MicroVMS V4.5B BIN TK50 I'm a collector of DEC hardware and software and I like to complete my "OldVMS collection". You know it's like stamp collecting - you always want the complete set ... Let me know if there is anything I can do for you! Regards Ulli The VAXorcist Am Fr., 2. Feb. 2024 um 11:14 Uhr schrieb r.stricklin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > I recently acquired a stash of 5.25” Northstar-related floppy disks. About > half are soft sector for the Northstar Dimension, the other half are 10 > sector for the Advantage 8/16. > > There are, however, about a dozen 10 sector floppies all modified in the > same curious way: they have had a write protect sticker stuck over the > index hole. Some with the sticker on top, some on bottom; can’t think of > any reason that would matter as blocked is blocked. But I’ll mention it. > > They seem to have something to do with the Dimension, maybe, as a couple > of them are marked with NetWare 1.1.1 related labels (all handwritten). > There is a set of what appears to be WordPerfect install floppies (though > they don’t say WordPerfect specifically) . A couple also mention the odd > term “smutched”. One is actually labeled “smutch.exe”. > > Tim Mann’s Catweasel tool (cw2dmk) was unable to find any valid sectors on > them, using the option to ignore the index pulse. I am aware that some > drives won’t enable data if the pulse is missing entirely but I used a > drive that doesn’t care (Teac FD-55BR - I have used it to read unpunched > “flippy” disks) and still got nothing. > > Does the Dimension really not need the index pulse, despite otherwise > using an apparently standard WD-style format? Is something else going on? > Does any of this ring any bells with the collected wisdom of the list? What > am I likely dealing with here, if I want to recover the contents of these > disks? > > Thanks. > > > ok > bear. --===============6035796022406442677==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Fri Feb 2 10:46:27 2024 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 10:45:02 +0000 Message-ID: <7a671dc0-3d69-40d4-b243-8baf36ed72d4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0627952481715792490==" --===============0627952481715792490== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Surely, it has to go to the UK as stated by the "BRITISH CROWN COPYRIGHT" - t= he 1963 Colossus seehttps://therecord.media/80th-anniversary-colossus-digital-computer-uk-wwii= -nazi-codebreaking On 01.02.2024 22:35, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 13:20, Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 18:35, Henry Bent via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> Surely by this definition UNIX would take the crown? The "core of the >> OS" >>> dates from 1969 and modern derivatives are everywhere. >> Good point, but the OS I was referring to is RISC OS, *the* original >> ARM OS and it has only ever run on ARM and nothing else. >> >> Nobody is making PDP-7s any more, are they? :-) >> >> I think the first C-based Unix was 4th edition. Are there any new PDP-11s? >> >> If that makes my point any clearer? >> > Yes, that does clarify things, thank you. > > Looking as a naive researcher, Wikipedia doesn't have any information on > the ARM processor before 1981 or RiscOS before 1987. Do you have a source > for your date of the late '70s? > > -Henry --===============0627952481715792490==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Feb 2 15:35:29 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 16:35:12 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1938031827299878932==" --===============1938031827299878932== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 23:36, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > > Yes, that does clarify things, thank you. Ah, good. :-) > > Looking as a naive researcher, Wikipedia doesn't have any information on > the ARM processor before 1981 or RiscOS before 1987. Do you have a source > for your date of the late '70s? But manifestly not enough. It *is* really stretching my point, though. The ARM was expressly designed as a sort of 32-bit 6502. It was Acorn's successor to their BBC Micro range of 6502 machines. The BBC Micro came after the Acorn Atom, and that after the Acorn System 1, 2 & 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Eurocard_systems The BBC Micro OS was called MOS -- Machine Operating System. It was not Arm-native because Arm didn't exist yet. But Arthur and RISC OS (Arthur 2) are based on a command-line-only core OS which is a 32-bit version of MOS. (There was also a single model of machine with a 16-bit version for the 65C816, the Acorn Communicator.) I am being cross-examined on a flippant throwaway comment, but it's fair and I brought it upon myself. :`D -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1938031827299878932==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Fri Feb 2 15:42:59 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 10:42:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8096854189954517359==" --===============8096854189954517359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 at 10:35, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 23:36, Henry Bent via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Yes, that does clarify things, thank you. > > Ah, good. :-) > > > > Looking as a naive researcher, Wikipedia doesn't have any information on > > the ARM processor before 1981 or RiscOS before 1987. Do you have a > source > > for your date of the late '70s? > > But manifestly not enough. It *is* really stretching my point, though. > > The ARM was expressly designed as a sort of 32-bit 6502. It was > Acorn's successor to their BBC Micro range of 6502 machines. The BBC > Micro came after the Acorn Atom, and that after the Acorn System 1, 2 > & 3. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Eurocard_systems > > The BBC Micro OS was called MOS -- Machine Operating System. It was > not Arm-native because Arm didn't exist yet. But Arthur and RISC OS > (Arthur 2) are based on a command-line-only core OS which is a 32-bit > version of MOS. > > (There was also a single model of machine with a 16-bit version for > the 65C816, the Acorn Communicator.) > This is all excellent information, thank you. > I am being cross-examined on a flippant throwaway comment, but it's > fair and I brought it upon myself. :`D > I don't mean to be harsh or critical, I'm just trying to find information about a software and hardware ecosystem that I have very little knowledge of, and I suspect many folks on this list also are not very familiar with. -Henry --===============8096854189954517359==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Feb 2 15:52:07 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 16:51:46 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3335044462962635273==" --===============3335044462962635273== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 at 16:43, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > I don't mean to be harsh or critical, I'm just trying to find information > about a software and hardware ecosystem that I have very little knowledge > of, and I suspect many folks on this list also are not very familiar with. As I said... it's fair! Arm is *vast.* I believe they sell ITRO 10 billion chips a quarter. The rest of the microchip industry is a rounding error, in unit numbers. Not in money or anything else, obviously. Arm is small compared to Intel in revenues, say. But yes, the original native Arm OS is still around and runs on modern kit. https://www.riscosopen.org/content/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3335044462962635273==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Feb 2 15:57:11 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 09:57:04 -0600 Message-ID: <935278151.382786.1706889424622@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0334558583352827707==" --===============0334558583352827707== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 02/02/2024 9:42 AM CST Henry Bent via cctalk w= rote: > > I don't mean to be harsh or critical, I'm just trying to find information > about a software and hardware ecosystem that I have very little knowledge > of, and I suspect many folks on this list also are not very familiar with. > > -Henry I, with a big interest in ARM and a small amount of knowledge of the history,= have found this thread very interesting and enlightening! Thanks, Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============0334558583352827707==-- From kantexplain@protonmail.com Fri Feb 2 17:49:18 2024 From: Just Kant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Northstar - odd abuse of 5.25" hard sector floppy disks Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 17:48:51 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4191307890212549247==" --===============4191307890212549247== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello. Please carefully image the Dimension disks. I've been looking for a se= t for ages. The format is IBM compatible. --===============4191307890212549247==-- From marvin@west.net Fri Feb 2 20:00:47 2024 From: Marvin Johnston To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 11:54:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3d8c71e2-1730-51ca-88ef-6e87187f14a7@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2294373543003006283==" --===============2294373543003006283== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Note to those people too lazy to update their subject line... it is REALLY getting tiresome looking for information about the SoCal VCF and finding not one post giving any information about it let alone the multitude of posts seemingly with the subject line "VCF SoCal"!!! Sheesh!!! Kind of makes search totally (almost) useless. I'm still not sure of the date(s) or location except that it is in February somewhere in southern Orange County, CA USA. --===============2294373543003006283==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:24:01 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 20:23:51 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3d8c71e2-1730-51ca-88ef-6e87187f14a7@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3917600346078128842==" --===============3917600346078128842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Its here. https://www.vcfsocal.com/venue Sent from my iPhone On Feb 2, 2024, at 12:00, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: =EF=BB=BFNote to those people too lazy to update their subject line... it is = REALLY getting tiresome looking for information about the SoCal VCF and findi= ng not one post giving any information about it let alone the multitude of po= sts seemingly with the subject line "VCF SoCal"!!! Sheesh!!! Kind of makes se= arch totally (almost) useless. I'm still not sure of the date(s) or location except that it is in February s= omewhere in southern Orange County, CA USA. --===============3917600346078128842==-- From legalize@xmission.com Sun Feb 4 23:46:55 2024 From: Richard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: vt220 firmware source? Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2024 16:26:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8996955197117880902==" --===============8996955197117880902== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article you write: >I'm about to dive in to commenting the disassembly listings, but figured >I'd ping here to see if anybody might have done this already in case I >wouldn't have to start from scratch? Give IDA Pro or Ghidra a crack at it to help you make sense of the raw disassembly. I made pretty good progress on VT100 ROMs before Paul Williams put up a completely reverse engineered commented listing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Terminals Wiki The Computer Graphics Museum Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --===============8996955197117880902==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Feb 5 15:31:06 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2024 16:30:50 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3d8c71e2-1730-51ca-88ef-6e87187f14a7@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8721485015090169137==" --===============8721485015090169137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 at 21:01, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > > Note to those people too lazy to update their subject line... Oh come on, you can't say that and not quote properly. For just me, I intentionally don't do it. For better or worse, Gmail is the best webmail I know if, it does plain text and bottom posting, and it works across my 5 ot 6 laptops, 3 phones and a desktop perfectly. But it hates subject line changes and it destroys its threading. So I never, ever do it if I can avoid it. It is not laziness, like bad quoting. It's 100% intentional. As for info... Didn't you just try Google? vcf south california 1st hit: https://www.vcfsocal.com/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8721485015090169137==-- From paul@frixxon.co.uk Mon Feb 5 16:58:38 2024 From: Paul Flo Williams To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: vt220 firmware source? Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2024 16:23:41 +0000 Message-ID: <20240205162341.6dcfb7cf@chopoc.localdomain> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8151086527008990896==" --===============8151086527008990896== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 04 Feb 2024 16:26:57 -0700 Richard via cctalk wrote: > In article you > write: > >I'm about to dive in to commenting the disassembly listings, but > >figured I'd ping here to see if anybody might have done this already > >in case I wouldn't have to start from scratch? > > Give IDA Pro or Ghidra a crack at it to help you make sense of the raw > disassembly. > > I made pretty good progress on VT100 ROMs before Paul Williams put up > a completely reverse engineered commented listing. Well, in case it helps, I'll explicitly disclaim any intention of disassembling the VT220 :-) After the VT100, I did make a start on the VT102/131 combination but it seemed too samey to hold my interest. More than 20 years ago, I started on the VT320, as my personal favourite, but I didn't understand how to tackle emulation at the time, the 8051 emulator I wrote had flaws, and I spent a long time on getting the emulated video timing correct enough to even pass self test! If only the VT320 had had a technical reference as comprehensive as that published for the VT100. I will return to it at some point, probably using some else's 8051 core, as Peter Sichel (last head of DEC's terminals group) bet me that I wouldn't be able to do it. At the moment, I'm tackling another full commentary, but it may well have an even smaller audience than that for the VT100; I'm 83% through gutting the arcade game Star Force. I've even fixed two æsthetic bugs in the game, 40 years too late for anyone to care. At least this is Z80 assembler, and tinkering with that has always made me *very* happy. Paul. --===============8151086527008990896==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Mon Feb 5 19:16:52 2024 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: vt220 firmware source? Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2024 19:16:46 +0000 Message-ID: <005401da5867$dcf4fdd0$96def970$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <20240205162341.6dcfb7cf@chopoc.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3208683473366624209==" --===============3208683473366624209== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Flo Williams via cctalk > Sent: 05 February 2024 16:24 > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Paul Flo Williams > Subject: [cctalk] Re: vt220 firmware source? >=20 > On Sun, 04 Feb 2024 16:26:57 -0700 > Richard via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > In article you > > write: > > >I'm about to dive in to commenting the disassembly listings, but > > >figured I'd ping here to see if anybody might have done this already > > >in case I wouldn't have to start from scratch? > > > > Give IDA Pro or Ghidra a crack at it to help you make sense of the raw > > disassembly. > > > > I made pretty good progress on VT100 ROMs before Paul Williams put up > > a completely reverse engineered commented listing. >=20 > Well, in case it helps, I'll explicitly disclaim any intention of disassemb= ling the > VT220 :-) >=20 > After the VT100, I did make a start on the VT102/131 combination but it > seemed too samey to hold my interest. Hello Paul, Your annotated VT100 listing was invaluable in helping me to fix my own VT100= (still not working though, but on the video output side). Would be intereste= d in how you did it, I get the impression from your message that you used an = emulator to observe the behaviour? Thank you so much! Rob >=20 > More than 20 years ago, I started on the VT320, as my personal favourite, b= ut > I didn't understand how to tackle emulation at the time, the 8051 emulator I > wrote had flaws, and I spent a long time on getting the emulated video timi= ng > correct enough to even pass self test! If only the VT320 had had a technical > reference as comprehensive as that published for the VT100. I will return t= o it > at some point, probably using some else's 8051 core, as Peter Sichel (last = head > of DEC's terminals group) bet me that I wouldn't be able to do it. >=20 > At the moment, I'm tackling another full commentary, but it may well have an > even smaller audience than that for the VT100; I'm 83% through gutting the > arcade game Star Force. I've even fixed two =C3=A6sthetic bugs in the game,= 40 > years too late for anyone to care. At least this is Z80 assembler, and tink= ering > with that has always made me *very* happy. >=20 > Paul. --===============3208683473366624209==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Feb 5 20:16:35 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: vt220 firmware source? Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2024 13:11:35 -0600 Message-ID: <4c4350aa-7821-45e0-93f1-ce04faa8be5c@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <20240205162341.6dcfb7cf@chopoc.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1626205413013531122==" --===============1626205413013531122== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit you may already know about these but here are a few 8051 Simulators: https://www.electronicshub.org/8051-simulators/ And thoughts on using MAME to emulate terminals: https://zork.net/~st/jottings/Real-VT102-emulation-with-MAME.html Good luck.  I have a fully functional VT-330+ and a fully functional VT-220 if i can help at all. On 2/5/2024 10:23 AM, Paul Flo Williams via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 04 Feb 2024 16:26:57 -0700 > Richard via cctalk wrote: > >> In article you >> write: >>> I'm about to dive in to commenting the disassembly listings, but >>> figured I'd ping here to see if anybody might have done this already >>> in case I wouldn't have to start from scratch? >> Give IDA Pro or Ghidra a crack at it to help you make sense of the raw >> disassembly. >> >> I made pretty good progress on VT100 ROMs before Paul Williams put up >> a completely reverse engineered commented listing. > Well, in case it helps, I'll explicitly disclaim any intention of > disassembling the VT220 :-) > > After the VT100, I did make a start on the VT102/131 combination but it > seemed too samey to hold my interest. > > More than 20 years ago, I started on the VT320, as my personal > favourite, but I didn't understand how to tackle emulation at the > time, the 8051 emulator I wrote had flaws, and I spent a long time on > getting the emulated video timing correct enough to even pass self > test! If only the VT320 had had a technical reference as comprehensive > as that published for the VT100. I will return to it at some point, > probably using some else's 8051 core, as Peter Sichel (last head of > DEC's terminals group) bet me that I wouldn't be able to do it. > > At the moment, I'm tackling another full commentary, but it may well > have an even smaller audience than that for the VT100; I'm 83% through > gutting the arcade game Star Force. I've even fixed two æsthetic bugs > in the game, 40 years too late for anyone to care. At least this is Z80 > assembler, and tinkering with that has always made me *very* happy. > > Paul. --===============1626205413013531122==-- From paul@frixxon.co.uk Tue Feb 6 00:03:32 2024 From: Paul Flo Williams To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: vt220 firmware source? Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2024 00:03:23 +0000 Message-ID: <20240206000323.0da0021c@chopoc.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <005401da5867$dcf4fdd0$96def970$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7360872498125502422==" --===============7360872498125502422== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 19:16:46 -0000 "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > Your annotated VT100 listing was invaluable in helping me to fix my > own VT100 (still not working though, but on the video output side). > Would be interested in how you did it, I get the impression from your > message that you used an emulator to observe the behaviour? The main write-up on that is here: https://vt100.net/dec/vt100/rom/how (which I am always prepared to revise, if something doesn't make sense!) I started with MAME, because it supports VT100 emulation with the exception of smooth scrolling, and because it has a really excellent debugger. However, I had to switch to my own program based on Nicolas Allemand's 8080 core in the end, for two reasons: 1. I needed to stimulate the terminal with serial inputs and key presses and observe the serial outputs, and 2. I needed to know that I had covered the entire ROM, so I combined the 8080 core with a coverage checker, to mark all reads, writes and DMA accesses to RAM while it worked its way through a file that contained stimulation instructions: "pause", "keyboard character", "serial input", etc. Coverage checking might sound bizarre, but I had some code that I disassembled, understood and documented and could not for the life of me work out why I couldn't provoke it into executing; it turned out to be a bug in the firmware. Regards, Paul --===============7360872498125502422==-- From wayne.smith@wbd.com Wed Feb 7 06:29:54 2024 From: "Smith, Wayne" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2024 18:21:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <170698320739.2847341.1655374794845420250@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0165026666703067873==" --===============0165026666703067873== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am certainly with you on that, Marvin. I have exhibited at 8 or 9 VCFs (my= first was VCF 3) and was on the mailing list as recently as August 2023 (but= apparently no more) and only happened to see the event being discussed in th= is forum. Thanks to Wayne Sudol for posting the information. Odd that a VCF= finally comes to my home turf and this is the one I only find out about two = weeks in advance! -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2024 11:54:03 -0800 From: Marvin Johnston Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Message-ID: <3d8c71e2-1730-51ca-88ef-6e87187f14a7(a)west.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed Note to those people too lazy to update their subject line... it is REALLY ge= tting tiresome looking for information about the SoCal VCF and finding not on= e post giving any information about it let alone the multitude of posts seemi= ngly with the subject line "VCF SoCal"!!!=20 Sheesh!!! Kind of makes search totally (almost) useless. I'm still not sure of the date(s) or location except that it is in February s= omewhere in southern Orange County, CA USA. --===============0165026666703067873==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Wed Feb 7 07:53:50 2024 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2024 23:53:32 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8066901094510927389==" --===============8066901094510927389== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Feb 2, 2024, at 2:06=E2=80=AFAM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 18:34, Wouter de Waal via cctalk > wrote: >> If someone here has the warm fuzzies for PPC VME, we can talk :-) >=20 > Other than a reflexive twitch to see if NetBSD can run on the MPC7448? :-p It=E2=80=99s NetBSD, of course it can run! The real question is: Does it currently run? If the answer is =E2=80=9CNo,=E2= =80=9D it=E2=80=99s just a port away as long as sufficient information about = the CPU and platform is available. The modularity in NetBSD that enables this is its greatest strength. It enabl= es things like the newly brought up =E2=80=9Cvirt68k=E2=80=9D platform which = is basically NetBSD for a QEMU-hosted 68K emulator with VirtIO, which can be = useful for things like kernel testing and pkgsrc builds. =E2=80=94 Chris --===============8066901094510927389==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Thu Feb 8 01:15:28 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Oscar's PiDP 10 parts arrived in Panama today Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2024 19:15:22 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1110690562325697389==" --===============1110690562325697389== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just saw on Twitter that the parts (main ones being front panel castings) arrived, he's going to start kitting and sending to a fulfifllment center in Florida. I'm sure the audience here knows this, but this puts as marker in the record here, since it's been ongoing for 3 years (according to Oscar). Now to figure out how to get one. thanks jim --===============1110690562325697389==-- From shumaker@att.net Thu Feb 8 03:51:26 2024 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Overland Data Depot4 application Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2024 19:51:16 -0800 Message-ID: <42c655c7-730a-40f9-be0f-d867f4e93f96@att.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6090277854660101644==" --===============6090277854660101644== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings! Based on the comment in a message posted last fall, I downloaded and installed the Overland Data Depot4 software that was mentioned during a discussion of SCSI tape tools.  But so far I've been stumped in getting it to work.   Basic system is a freshly set up Win98SE and an Adaptec 1522 SCSI board connected to a Qualstar 9track.  Depot4 installs and runs without issue but when I try to point it at the ASPI drivers it fails to recognize anything.  Any suggestions on where to look or what to tweak would be seriously appreciated! Steve --===============6090277854660101644==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Thu Feb 8 04:16:16 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Overland Data Depot4 application Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2024 22:16:07 -0600 Message-ID: <9f84c208-2cea-412a-9a4d-7be9db57de6a@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <42c655c7-730a-40f9-be0f-d867f4e93f96@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7838364674212754656==" --===============7838364674212754656== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/7/24 21:51, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > Greetings! > > Based on the comment in a message posted last fall, I downloaded and > installed the Overland Data Depot4 software that was mentioned during > a discussion of SCSI tape tools.  But so far I've been stumped in > getting it to work.   Basic system is a freshly set up Win98SE and an > Adaptec 1522 SCSI board connected to a Qualstar 9track.  Depot4 > installs and runs without issue but when I try to point it at the ASPI > drivers it fails to recognize anything.  Any suggestions on where to > look or what to tweak would be seriously appreciated! > > Steve I have all types of the original Overland Pertec controllers and none were SCSI.  There were drivers for those controllers, but nothing for any generic thing like ASPI that I encountered. If this is for their tape libraries, that is way after my time. Their utilities were great, handling a lot of scenarios and letting you configure for a lot of situations to save having to code and break up records yourself. Not much use I guess, but Depot goes to the original programmed I/O, ATA, and PCI controllers. thanks Jim --===============7838364674212754656==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Thu Feb 8 07:14:27 2024 From: Nico de Jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Overland Data Depot4 application Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2024 07:59:07 +0100 Message-ID: <46ce254e-44c6-4420-92f9-d2985a134eb2@farumdata.dk> In-Reply-To: <9f84c208-2cea-412a-9a4d-7be9db57de6a@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2110232987686358825==" --===============2110232987686358825== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-02-08 05:16, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 2/7/24 21:51, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> Greetings! >> >> Based on the comment in a message posted last fall, I downloaded and >> installed the Overland Data Depot4 software that was mentioned during >> a discussion of SCSI tape tools.  But so far I've been stumped in >> getting it to work.   Basic system is a freshly set up Win98SE and an >> Adaptec 1522 SCSI board connected to a Qualstar 9track.  Depot4 >> installs and runs without issue but when I try to point it at the >> ASPI drivers it fails to recognize anything.  Any suggestions on >> where to look or what to tweak would be seriously appreciated! >> >> Steve > I have all types of the original Overland Pertec controllers and none > were SCSI.  There were drivers for those controllers, but nothing for > any generic thing like ASPI that I encountered. > > If this is for their tape libraries, that is way after my time. > > Their utilities were great, handling a lot of scenarios and letting > you configure for a lot of situations to save having to code and break > up records yourself. > > Not much use I guess, but Depot goes to the original programmed I/O, > ATA, and PCI controllers. > thanks > Jim Maybe you dont know, but all the Qualstars I've met, are basically Pertec. I've run some 1052's on Overland software. The 34xx series has a SCSI - Pertec interface, so if you remove this board, you have a Pertec drive. Thanks' Nico --===============2110232987686358825==-- From travispierce70@gmail.com Thu Feb 8 16:15:57 2024 From: Travis Pierce To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Overland Data Depot4 application Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2024 09:15:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <46ce254e-44c6-4420-92f9-d2985a134eb2@farumdata.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7323917029824770929==" --===============7323917029824770929== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a Qualstar 3412 that I've used with Depot4. I last used this on a 386 running DOS 6.22, a Trantor SCSI card and SCSIWorks! as the ASPI driver. Travis On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:14 AM Nico de Jong via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Based on the comment in a message posted last fall, I downloaded and > >> installed the Overland Data Depot4 software that was mentioned during > >> a discussion of SCSI tape tools. But so far I've been stumped in > >> getting it to work. Basic system is a freshly set up Win98SE and an > >> Adaptec 1522 SCSI board connected to a Qualstar 9track. Depot4 > >> installs and runs without issue but when I try to point it at the > >> ASPI drivers it fails to recognize anything. Any suggestions on > >> where to look or what to tweak would be seriously appreciated! > > > The 34xx series has a SCSI - Pertec interface, so if you remove this > board, you have a Pertec drive. > > Thanks' > > Nico > > > --===============7323917029824770929==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Feb 8 16:22:45 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Overland Data Depot4 application Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2024 08:22:31 -0800 Message-ID: <2fa424a3-df2e-43bc-b62a-bc575814c1c1@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <46ce254e-44c6-4420-92f9-d2985a134eb2@farumdata.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4878024205800794144==" --===============4878024205800794144== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/7/24 22:59, Nico de Jong via cctalk wrote: > > Maybe you dont know, but all the Qualstars I've met, are basically > Pertec. I've run some 1052's on Overland software. > I have a 1260S that's a SCSI interface. The 1052 was also available with a SCSI interface. Basically a 1260 or 1052 with a Pertec-to-SCSI adapter installed. I also have a (disintegrating) Overland drive that's Pertec and printer interface. --Chuck --===============4878024205800794144==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Feb 9 10:08:47 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF SoCal Saturday Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 04:08:30 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3801932993979390135==" --===============3801932993979390135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a good chance I'll make it to the upcoming VCF SoCal coming up on Sat. the 17th. Some things I'm looking for: - recently an associate of mine gifted me their original 1978 TRS-80 (Model 1). But not much in accessories. I have a suitable tape deck, but other accessories might be nice. His father used this particular unit while he worked in the Tandy Towers in downtown FW (that's all I know about it so far). - any IBM 5100/5110 parts (including 8" disks); an associate here in Texas has gotten their IBM 5114 disk drive unit working, so we'd be interested in maybe copying disk files over to QIC tapes, and then somehow off-system to archive. And I'm still looking for a copy of "PC51" (a 5110 BASIC emulator that ran under MS-DOS 2.0), it was by CORE NET. Probably at most only a few hundred customers bought it (at its $3000 price tag) around 1983. - any parts for a Sharp PC-5000. Mine works, but I've been looking for a Sharp CE-510F floppy disk drive (that has a "special" 37-pin connector that makes it only work with some of the Sharp models - and I've verified it is not the same as the 37-pin connector used on the IBM PC 5150 controller card). - anyone who can replace the screen on an Atari Lynx. I have the parts, just don't have the talent :) - a ThinkPad 385CD. I have one and it's in really decent condition, but thinking I'd like to have a spare. Nice thing about the 385CD is it has both 3.5" floppy and CD-ROM. [ I'm specifically looking for 486DX or Pentium, so mid-1990s, not late 1990s - I have plenty of Pentium 3's and onward; going for a "period correct" OS/2 Warp setup, even though I do have ArcaOS on some 2001-era systems ] - I guess while I'm at it, I've also been seeking for a working Datapoint 2200 (or equivalent variant, any 1974 or earlier) or Wang 2200. Even just seeing either of those in working condition would be neat (working in terms of still booting to BASIC). I was surprised I didn't see one at VCF in Dallas last year (but they did have a HP9830 and Tek4051, those were neat to see and still working).. The Wang systems have some decent emulators, but I don't recall emulators for the early Datapoints.- so I've been curious about their font and if it was as good at the brochures show. I've read that the thing that really got Datapoint some money (initially) was they pulled off crisp 80-column early on (and from the IBM SCAMP journals, I read that even IBM struggled to do 80 cols - part of why the IBM 5100 was only 64-column). I just happen to be near LA that weekend, so hopefully it works out that I can get to this VCF event. Is it the first time being held in that area? Cheers, hope weather all works out for this event! -Steve --===============3801932993979390135==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Fri Feb 9 10:55:08 2024 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Saturday Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 11:47:39 +0100 Message-ID: <59bb7bdc-fcc1-40bd-8e2e-b7bb054d5fa2@greenmail.ch> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0913778087999542156==" --===============0913778087999542156== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > - I guess while I'm at it, I've also been seeking for a working Datapoint > 2200 (or equivalent variant, any 1974 or earlier) or Wang 2200. Even just > seeing either of those in working condition would be neat (working in terms > of still booting to BASIC). I was surprised I didn't see one at VCF in > Dallas last year (but they did have a HP9830 and Tek4051, those were neat > to see and still working).. The Wang systems have some decent emulators, > but I don't recall emulators for the early Datapoints.- There now=C2=A0 is a Datapoint 2200 emulator, see https://github.com/MattisLi= nd/DP2200 Mattis is trying to add DP5500 support. Be aware that it does not show the true Datapoint fonts. Jos --===============0913778087999542156==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri Feb 9 12:03:36 2024 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Saturday Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 11:43:26 +0000 Message-ID: <7wh6ihkgm9.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <59bb7bdc-fcc1-40bd-8e2e-b7bb054d5fa2@greenmail.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8112053264170035757==" --===============8112053264170035757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit jos wrote: >> I don't recall emulators for the early Datapoints.- > There now  is a Datapoint 2200 emulator > Be aware that it does not show the true Datapoint fonts. There is also an emulator for the 3300, with a font from an imaged ROM. It's in here: https://github.com/aap/vt05/ (The 3300 is older than the 2200, and doesn't have a processor.) --===============8112053264170035757==-- From mokuba@gmail.com Fri Feb 9 18:16:52 2024 From: Gary Sparkes To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 13:16:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <168431391284.1516385.1034710405225293533@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2931771136283508452==" --===============2931771136283508452== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do we have anyone who can read these tapes? Maybe Al at CHM? On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM mokuba--- via cctalk wrote: > For some handy clarification - some of the tapes I saw seemed to be > operating system tapes for the MAX 32 computer. > > Labeled things like "MAX 32 O/S & SUPPORT PART 2 OF 2" and "MAX 32 GLS -C > COMPILER" > > 1600 BPI, 9 track. > > Also has MODCOMP copyrights, leading to this line of machines: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modcomp > > So likely the Modcomp Classic. Copyright dates on the labeling indicated > 1981. So it would have been the latest and greatest OS for this system at > the time. > > So this would have been the OS, according to that wiki article, > controlling space shuttle launch complex. Also tangentially related > (Modcomp IV, their first 32 bit computer) to the OS running PAVE PAWS > initially. > --=20 Gary G. Sparkes Jr. AC3IG --===============2931771136283508452==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Feb 9 18:50:04 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 10:41:44 -0800 Message-ID: <5c10bc3c-25c4-4baf-a52c-b3a16720985e@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5836782860558290127==" --===============5836782860558290127== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/9/24 10:16, Gary Sparkes via cctalk wrote: > Do we have anyone who can read these tapes? Maybe Al at CHM? Any number of folks here should be able to read them. I certainly can, but that's business for me, so not free. --Chuck --===============5836782860558290127==-- From jlw@jlw.com Fri Feb 9 19:06:10 2024 From: Jeff Woolsey To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 10:57:33 -0800 Message-ID: <2bb94c9e-061a-4cb5-b486-7aeb9ecd1fd8@jlw.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3474483140743062140==" --===============3474483140743062140== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/9/24 10:16 AM, Gary Sparkes via cctalk wrote: > Do we have anyone who can read these tapes? Maybe Al at CHM? He may have an interest in them for their historical value. I could read them.=C2=A0 I'm not as busy as Al, and I'm only a couple miles=20 from his lab in Fremont.=C2=A0 If the tapes are problematic or difficult,=20 there are others who can take actions to condition tapes for higher=20 probability of success, but of all the tapes that I have read, maybe 10%=20 had some trouble requiring re-reading several times but eventually=20 getting all of the data, and maybe 1 or 2% had failures while assisting=20 the tape drive.=C2=A0 (I managed to reconstruct the data because I had made=20 previous incomplete attempts but it was all there in aggregate.=C2=A0 The=20 tape drive declared several tapes to be blank, even though their senders=20 claimed they were not.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I also had some 7-track tapes that I gave = to Al=20 to read (not exactly trivial).=C2=A0=C2=A0 Many people did not need their tap= es=20 back, but I'm reluctant to discard them (how?). About a dozen of the=20 tapes are originally mine. > > On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM mokuba--- via cctalk > wrote: > >> For some handy clarification - some of the tapes I saw seemed to be >> operating system tapes for the MAX 32 computer. >> >> Labeled things like "MAX 32 O/S & SUPPORT PART 2 OF 2" and "MAX 32 GLS -C >> COMPILER" >> >> 1600 BPI, 9 track. >> >> Also has MODCOMP copyrights, leading to this line of machines: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modcomp >> >> So likely the Modcomp Classic. Copyright dates on the labeling indicated >> 1981. So it would have been the latest and greatest OS for this system at >> the time. >> >> So this would have been the OS, according to that wiki article, >> controlling space shuttle launch complex. Also tangentially related >> (Modcomp IV, their first 32 bit computer) to the OS running PAVE PAWS >> initially. >> > --=20 Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire --===============3474483140743062140==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Feb 9 19:22:39 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF SoCal Saturday Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 14:22:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <63094c24-9f1b-44ca-99d3-3b28dab0164f@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2562144913256292478==" --===============2562144913256292478== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/9/2024 5:08 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > There's a good chance I'll make it to the upcoming VCF SoCal coming up on > Sat. the 17th. > > Some things I'm looking for: > - recently an associate of mine gifted me their original 1978 TRS-80 (Model > 1). But not much in accessories. I have a suitable tape deck, but other > accessories might be nice. His father used this particular unit while he > worked in the Tandy Towers in downtown FW (that's all I know about it so > far). > Checkout the MISE and MIRE from Bartlett Labs and the FreHD from Ian Mavric. bill --===============2562144913256292478==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sat Feb 10 03:26:40 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Overland Data Depot4 application Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 21:26:33 -0600 Message-ID: <18c28272-f70a-42bd-afca-001ffb44005e@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <46ce254e-44c6-4420-92f9-d2985a134eb2@farumdata.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1915386107954345332==" --===============1915386107954345332== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/8/24 00:59, Nico de Jong via cctalk wrote: > > Maybe you dont know, but all the Qualstars I've met, are basically > Pertec. I've run some 1052's on Overland software. > > The 34xx series has a SCSI - Pertec interface, so if you remove this > board, you have a Pertec drive. > > Thanks' > > Nico Thanks, Nico.  I have both the Pertec and the SCSI 1052 and 1260.  I know inside there is a SCSI converter.  FWIW there is a SCSI to pertec on both Kennedy and Cipher drives which will run Pertec when you pull off the SCSI adapter on the back as well. I have a system called Pick which some here know, and have Pertec 9 track software to allow the PC version R83 to access Pertec half inch drives, FWIW.  At the early stages we met with the founders in San Diego about their designs as well (Overland).  A friend developed and marketed the Pick product with our engineering help. Thanks for noting about the Qualstars.  I have a skid of a mixture of Cipher, IBM, Qualstar, M4 and some 100X rack mount as well as CDC.  I haven't gotten into the mode of seeing if they still work, but "they did from 10 to 40 years ago". thanks Jim --===============1915386107954345332==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Feb 10 15:43:03 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 07:42:51 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2bb94c9e-061a-4cb5-b486-7aeb9ecd1fd8@jlw.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1824913017829484814==" --===============1824913017829484814== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my experience, the Qualstar drives aren't the best tool for the job. They're basically a cost-minimized apparatus for handling tapes under the most optimistic of conditions. In particular, they don't really move the tape quickly enough at 6250 fci to get a decent read signal. SCSI drives for data recovery are terrible because they take much of the fine control of the drive away from the user, basically sacrificing control to buffer up as much data as possible. This can entail needless shoe-shining and not returning marginal data (i.e. data with hard errors) to the user. A good Pertec-interface drive and accompanying host controller is the next best thing to interpreting the signal from the drive read heads directly. Many drives have vendor-specific commands that are not exposed with a SCSI interface. My .02 only--your mileage may be different. --Chuck --===============1824913017829484814==-- From mark.kahrs@gmail.com Sun Feb 11 02:16:53 2024 From: Mark Kahrs To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 21:16:36 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4218783752278737471==" --===============4218783752278737471== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The LSSM is getting into the Modcomp world, so we are very interested in the disposition of this media. The OS tapes would be particularly valuable. --===============4218783752278737471==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Wed Feb 14 03:08:08 2024 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Repair Workshop/Hack-a-thon in Kennett Square, PA Sat., Feb. 17, 2024 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 22:07:45 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4410046723283148975==" --===============4410046723283148975== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Vintage Computer Federation and Kennett Classic will be doing a joint repair workshop/hack-a-thon Sat. Feb. 17, 2024. Hours: 9AM to 8PM. Signup here if you are interested: https://www.kennettclassic.com/hack-a-thon-workshop-february-17th/ Take care! Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner VCF Mid-Atlantic Event Manager Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ jeffrey(a)vcfed.org --===============4410046723283148975==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Feb 15 16:56:47 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 08:57:13 -0800 Message-ID: <03e301da6030$06e6d9e0$14b48da0$@net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSN6PR07MB50873F4ECF944FD4B2120D7FE5462=40SN6PR07MB?= =?utf-8?q?5087=2Enamprd07=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5352072305701199276==" --===============5352072305701199276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I am certainly with you on that, Marvin. I have exhibited at 8 or 9 > VCFs (my first was VCF 3) and was on the mailing list as recently as > August 2023 (but apparently no more) and only happened to see the event > being discussed in this forum. Thanks to Wayne Sudol for posting the > information. Odd that a VCF finally comes to my home turf and this is > the one I only find out about two weeks in advance! I have looked at the website for the event and I am still not sure if there w= ill be consignment/sales area. Can anyone verify if there is going to be one = or not? Thanks! -Ali --===============5352072305701199276==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Feb 15 17:13:06 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 09:12:49 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <03e301da6030$06e6d9e0$14b48da0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5316617479044342325==" --===============5316617479044342325== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:56 AM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > I have looked at the website for the event and I am still not sure if > there will be consignment/sales area. Can anyone verify if there is going > to be one or not? Thanks! > > -Ali > This VCF SoCal announcement just came into my mailbox this morning so I'm passing it along. It's the final countdown! We are putting on the final touches and getting ready to kick off the inaugural show. EXHIBITORS & VENDORS The exhibit hall is full with 48 different Exhibitors & Vendors! Check the Exhibitors & Vendors page to see the full list and Exhibit Hall Map. SPEAKERS We are delighted to announce that Joe Decuir, legendary Atari engineer, has joined as a presenter, speaking with Thomas Cherryhomes on Atari OS and the foundation of FujiNet. All presentations are listed on the website . Check the list and mark your schedule! CONSIGNMENT Consignment details are up for shopping & selling! Sellers can pre-list their items for sale using the Consignment Form . Consignment shopping hours are: - Saturday 10am-6pm - Sunday 10am-5pm MEET-UPS We've added Meet-Ups to the agenda! Meet with fellow enthusiasts in the Grand Foyer (opposite the Registration Table) at one of our Meet-Ups - a mini-festival inside Vintage Computer Festival SoCal. These are informal gatherings where you can meet folks with a common interest or background, share stories and exchange info. VCF SOCAL SWAG The official, inaugural VCF SoCal T-shirts arrived and they are RAD! Shirts will be on sale during the show, along with VCF SoCal logo Ball Caps, Stickers and fun 2-in-1 Screwdrivers that fit nicely into your trusty pocket protector. FREE TABLE Been holding onto some old retro tech because "someone can use this!"? That's what the Free Table in the Grand Foyer is for. Bring some goodies along to leave on the Free Table. Check the table for that elusive component you've been searching for. PRO TIP: Check the Free Table throughout the show as it's always changing! TICKETS Thank You to those who have bought tickets already. If you haven't gotten tickets, now's the time! We have a variety of ticket options for sale. The Vintage Fan Weekend Bundle is a fan favorite and Will Not be available once the show starts. It includes a Weekend Pass, the 2024 VCF SoCal T-shirt, an Exclusive Vintage Fan Badge and a cool VCF SoCal sticker. See you this weekend! Micki & Steve Diederich VCF SoCal vcfsocal.com #vcfsocal > --===============5316617479044342325==-- From silent700@gmail.com Fri Feb 16 07:19:46 2024 From: Jason T To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP/11 Available in Denver Area Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 01:19:29 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4352248815568265988==" --===============4352248815568265988== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello - I was contacted recently by a non-collector who is cleaning out their parents estate. They have what they describe as a PDP-11/23 system with various accessories (maybe terminal, printer, docs, etc?) which they would like to see go to a collector, rather than a scrapper. As I am not near Denver, Colorado, I am posting here in the hope that someone out there who is may want to take on the '11 and whatever comes with it. If you are interested, please reply to me directly and I can put you in touch with the owner. -jt -- s700.net --===============4352248815568265988==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Fri Feb 16 16:35:30 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 08:35:56 -0800 Message-ID: <048401da60f6$37f22b90$a7d682b0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2863698664326458255==" --===============2863698664326458255== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > This VCF SoCal announcement just came into my mailbox this morning so > I'm > passing it along. > Great! Thanks for the info! -Ali --===============2863698664326458255==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Fri Feb 16 20:53:39 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 12:54:06 -0800 Message-ID: <04c901da611a$48f37650$dada62f0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6414690115398250520==" --===============6414690115398250520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One last question: Do kids get in free? If so what is the age cutoff? It looks like tickets are = needed for everyone but figure I would check just in case. -Ali --===============6414690115398250520==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Fri Feb 16 20:55:46 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 12:56:15 -0800 Message-ID: <04d301da611a$954ce720$bfe6b560$@net> In-Reply-To: <04c901da611a$48f37650$dada62f0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3628064772409291516==" --===============3628064772409291516== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > One last question: >=20 > Do kids get in free? If so what is the age cutoff? It looks like > tickets are needed for everyone but figure I would check just in case. >=20 Never mind... Important to read all the WAY to the END. LOL. Kids 12 and unde= r are free! -Ali --===============3628064772409291516==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Feb 16 21:10:42 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Kennett Classic Workshop Tomorrow Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 16:10:25 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7594781719144259396==" --===============7594781719144259396== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a reminder that out vintage computing workshop is tomorrow, all day and into the evening. Kennett Square, PA 9AM - 8PM For more details: https://www.kennettclassic.com/hack-a-thon-workshop-february-17th/ Bill --===============7594781719144259396==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Fri Feb 16 21:25:22 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 13:25:50 -0800 Message-ID: <04e401da611e$b7b9ef20$272dcd60$@net> In-Reply-To: <04d301da611a$954ce720$bfe6b560$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7067485661438480157==" --===============7067485661438480157== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > One last question: > > > > Do kids get in free? If so what is the age cutoff? It looks like > > tickets are needed for everyone but figure I would check just in > case. > > >=20 > Never mind... Important to read all the WAY to the END. LOL. Kids 12 > and under are free! Anybody successfully buy tickets? I tried and I get an error that check out i= sn't working and to contact them. Of course like all good sites they provide = absolutely no way to contact them. If anyone has contact info that would be g= reat or if anyone knows that tickets can be purchased at the door? Otherwise = hard pass here. No way I am driving to the OC, in possible SoCal rain traffic= , without something a bit more solid.... -Ali --===============7067485661438480157==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Feb 16 22:27:11 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 14:26:52 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04e401da611e$b7b9ef20$272dcd60$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8942022981221001114==" --===============8942022981221001114== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Micki. I'm passing along this message from Ali. Can you please help him? I checked the website and verified that there is no obvious way to contact anyone in the organization for regular communication. Forgive me if I overlooked something. Thank you. Sellam On Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:25 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > One last question: > > > > > > Do kids get in free? If so what is the age cutoff? It looks like > > > tickets are needed for everyone but figure I would check just in > > case. > > > > > > > Never mind... Important to read all the WAY to the END. LOL. Kids 12 > > and under are free! > > > Anybody successfully buy tickets? I tried and I get an error that check > out isn't working and to contact them. Of course like all good sites they > provide absolutely no way to contact them. If anyone has contact info that > would be great or if anyone knows that tickets can be purchased at the > door? Otherwise hard pass here. No way I am driving to the OC, in possible > SoCal rain traffic, without something a bit more solid.... > > -Ali > > --===============8942022981221001114==-- From silent700@gmail.com Sun Feb 18 23:38:35 2024 From: Jason T To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP/11 Available in Denver Area Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 17:38:19 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7350393019279633913==" --===============7350393019279633913== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have a couple parties interested in the Denver 11 and one pursuing. I will post it it becomes available again. J On Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 01:19 Jason T wrote: > Hello - I was contacted recently by a non-collector who is cleaning out > their parents estate. They have what they describe as a PDP-11/23 system > with various accessories (maybe terminal, printer, docs, etc?) which they > would like to see go to a collector, rather than a scrapper. > > As I am not near Denver, Colorado, I am posting here in the hope that > someone out there who is may want to take on the '11 and whatever comes > with it. > > If you are interested, please reply to me directly and I can put you > in touch with the owner. > > -jt > -- > s700.net > --===============7350393019279633913==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Feb 19 04:11:44 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] SOCAL VCF Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 20:12:15 -0800 Message-ID: <059c01da62e9$d2b6ac60$78240520$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5462069352308688751==" --===============5462069352308688751== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So did anyone go? How was it? I never heard back from the organizers regarding the ticketing situation despite my, and Sellam's, best efforts so I skipped it. Hopefully, the event went better then the organization and the next one will have the bugs ironed out. -Ali --===============5462069352308688751==-- From ShowRunner@VCFSoCal.com Mon Feb 19 06:34:39 2024 From: ShowRunner@VCFSoCal.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 07:09:39 +0000 Message-ID: <7D28E49F-BB8E-4049-9056-5265721253FE@VCFSoCal.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1621966775042806123==" --===============1621966775042806123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Sellam. Tickets can be purchased at the door. I=E2=80=99m sorry they=E2=80=99re havin= g trouble. We=E2=80=99ve got a constant stream of ticket purchases coming thr= ough. Perhaps try another browser or on their mobile? Micki > On Feb 16, 2024, at 2:26=E2=80=AFPM, Sellam Abraham wrote: >=20 > Hi Micki. >=20 > I'm passing along this message from Ali. Can you please help him? >=20 > I checked the website and verified that there is no obvious way to contact = anyone in the organization for regular communication. Forgive me if I overloo= ked something. >=20 > Thank you. >=20 > Sellam >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:25 PM Ali via cctalk > wrote: >> > > One last question: >> > > >> > > Do kids get in free? If so what is the age cutoff? It looks like >> > > tickets are needed for everyone but figure I would check just in >> > case. >> > > >> >=20 >> > Never mind... Important to read all the WAY to the END. LOL. Kids 12 >> > and under are free! >>=20 >>=20 >> Anybody successfully buy tickets? I tried and I get an error that check ou= t isn't working and to contact them. Of course like all good sites they provi= de absolutely no way to contact them. If anyone has contact info that would b= e great or if anyone knows that tickets can be purchased at the door? Otherwi= se hard pass here. No way I am driving to the OC, in possible SoCal rain traf= fic, without something a bit more solid.... >>=20 >> -Ali >>=20 --===============1621966775042806123==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon Feb 19 07:26:23 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SOCAL VCF Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 01:26:07 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <059c01da62e9$d2b6ac60$78240520$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4966621810212837130==" --===============4966621810212837130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was able to make it, and the weather turned out very fair. Here is my summary review of the two days. Sorry about the ticket issue - I was able to get an online ticket the day before the event without issue. VCF SoCal 2024 — voidstar https://voidstar.blog/vcf-socal-2024/ -SteveL On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:11 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > So did anyone go? How was it? I never heard back from the organizers > regarding the ticketing situation despite my, and Sellam's, best efforts so > I skipped it. Hopefully, the event went better then the organization and > the > next one will have the bugs ironed out. > > -Ali > > > > > --===============4966621810212837130==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Feb 19 08:19:33 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SOCAL VCF Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 00:20:02 -0800 Message-ID: <000301da630c$70d69780$5283c680$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2390016758808326635==" --===============2390016758808326635== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I was able to make it, and the weather turned out very fair. > >Here is my summary review of the two days. Sorry about the ticket issue -= I was able to get an online ticket the day >before the event without issue. = Steve, Thanks for the excellent write up and the great pictures. It looks like it wa= s a fun, and packed, event. Sorry I missed it. Hopefully I can make it next y= ear. Yeah, I am not sure what the problem was with the tickets and I didn't k= now if there was going to be tickets available at the door so I opted to skip= out on the 55 mile drive. I did finally hear back from Micki. Unfortunately,= she didn't reply back to me directly and instead sent a reply to the list wh= ich I did not receive until tonight (Sunday) at 2300. It just wasn't meant to= be this time around. LOL! -Ali --===============2390016758808326635==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Mon Feb 19 19:35:47 2024 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF East 2024 Tickets on sale now! (Wall, NJ April 12-14) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 14:35:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2347083799052385234==" --===============2347083799052385234== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit VCF East takes place in Wall, NJ at InfoAge Science and History Museums (formerly Camp Evans). For more information: https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-east/ Lots of great exhibits, speakers, consignment, Atari Classroom and Glitch Works workshop. Tickets for VCF East (Eventbrite) – Non-VCF Members should use this link. Discounted tickets for VCF Members Only (VCF’s website) – VCF members should use this link. To get the 20% discount you need to become a VCF member by Clicking Here Take care! Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner --===============2347083799052385234==-- From wayne.smith@wbd.com Wed Feb 21 09:07:22 2024 From: "Smith, Wayne" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SOCAL VCF Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 18:51:34 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <170836560927.2847341.307063938926556283@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0848353614051879807==" --===============0848353614051879807== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 20:12:15 -0800 > From: "Ali" > Subject: [cctalk] SOCAL VCF > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <059c01da62e9$d2b6ac60$78240520$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >=20 > So did anyone go? How was it? I never heard back from the organizers regard= ing the ticketing situation despite my, and Sellam's, best efforts so I skipp= ed it. Hopefully, the event went better then the organization and the next on= e will have the bugs ironed out. >=20 > -Ali I have been to around 10 VCFs, but not since VCF West XI in 2016. I drove do= wn on Sunday morning and enjoyed it. There were some very interesting exhibi= ts, many of which were video game/console or adjacent (e.g., Commodore SX-64)= oriented. There was some great emulation work on display as well. Of note = was what was not there. No IBM, no HP, no S-100, almost no big iron (a stati= c Data General machine was the exception), and almost nothing pre-1980. The = facility was quite nice, including the presentation room. The consignment ta= ble looked pretty picked over by the time I got to it. There was a guy in the= consignment area with a small table selling comic books and he also had some= Funkos. I wish I had actually known about the show prior to two weeks befor= e so I could have at least thought about putting together an exhibit. Hopefu= lly the show will continue! ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 23:03:43 -0800 From: "ShowRunner(a)VCFSoCal.com" Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal To: Sellam Abraham Cc: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Message-ID: <7D28E49F-BB8E-4049-9056-5265721253FE(a)VCFSoCal.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 Thanks Sellam. Tickets can be purchased at the door. I=E2=80=99m sorry they=E2=80=99re havin= g trouble. We=E2=80=99ve got a constant stream of ticket purchases coming thr= ough. Perhaps try another browser or on their mobile? Micki > On Feb 16, 2024, at 2:26=E2=80=AFPM, Sellam Abraham wrote: >=20 > Hi Micki. >=20 > I'm passing along this message from Ali. Can you please help him? >=20 > I checked the website and verified that there is no obvious way to contact = anyone in the organization for regular communication. Forgive me if I overloo= ked something. >=20 > Thank you. >=20 > Sellam >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:25 PM Ali via cctalk > wrote: >> > > One last question: >> > > >> > > Do kids get in free? If so what is the age cutoff? It looks like=20 >> > > tickets are needed for everyone but figure I would check just in >> > case. >> > > >> >=20 >> > Never mind... Important to read all the WAY to the END. LOL. Kids=20 >> > 12 and under are free! >>=20 >>=20 >> Anybody successfully buy tickets? I tried and I get an error that check ou= t isn't working and to contact them. Of course like all good sites they provi= de absolutely no way to contact them. If anyone has contact info that would b= e great or if anyone knows that tickets can be purchased at the door? Otherwi= se hard pass here. No way I am driving to the OC, in possible SoCal rain traf= fic, without something a bit more solid.... >>=20 >> -Ali >>=20 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 01:26:07 -0600 From: Steve Lewis Subject: [cctalk] Re: SOCAL VCF To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" I was able to make it, and the weather turned out very fair. Here is my summary review of the two days. Sorry about the ticket issue - I was able to get an online ticket the day before the event without issue. VCF SoCal 2024 =E2=80=94 voidstar https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://voidstar.blog/vcf-socal-2024/__;!!AQdq3sQ= hfUj4q8uUguY!ih17Z4JrLMpaWkltcvcu_tA_eMQ6a1UuUxea2SdRPJCygK-Hu2eoQG892DBRWj9c= 1Eze7O_kiDEKHNqzItFleWXipEnwNzIqow$=20 -SteveL On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:11=E2=80=AFPM Ali via cctalk wrote: > So did anyone go? How was it? I never heard back from the organizers=20 > regarding the ticketing situation despite my, and Sellam's, best=20 > efforts so I skipped it. Hopefully, the event went better then the=20 > organization and the next one will have the bugs ironed out. > > -Ali > > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 00:20:02 -0800 From: "Ali" Subject: [cctalk] Re: SOCAL VCF To: "'Steve Lewis'" , "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Message-ID: <000301da630c$70d69780$5283c680$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" >I was able to make it, and the weather turned out very fair. > >Here is my summary review of the two days. Sorry about the ticket issue -= I was able to get an online ticket the day >before the event without issue. = Steve, Thanks for the excellent write up and the great pictures. It looks like it wa= s a fun, and packed, event. Sorry I missed it. Hopefully I can make it next y= ear. Yeah, I am not sure what the problem was with the tickets and I didn't k= now if there was going to be tickets available at the door so I opted to skip= out on the 55 mile drive. I did finally hear back from Micki. Unfortunately,= she didn't reply back to me directly and instead sent a reply to the list wh= ich I did not receive until tonight (Sunday) at 2300. It just wasn't meant to= be this time around. LOL! -Ali End of cctalk Digest, Vol 504, Issue 1 ************************************** --===============0848353614051879807==-- From Stefan.Skoglund@agj.net Wed Feb 21 09:39:51 2024 From: Stefan Skoglund To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 10:33:20 +0100 Message-ID: <05fd4f0cca7f5dd51a16f4a28c867a65dc292f6c.camel@agj.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2505028908325880572==" --===============2505028908325880572== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Liam, TriPOS ? If i'm not wrong it was a OS developed in Cambridge (Cambridgeshire). Did someone port it to other arch than ARM ? --===============2505028908325880572==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Feb 21 11:06:06 2024 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 11:01:09 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <05fd4f0cca7f5dd51a16f4a28c867a65dc292f6c.camel@agj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9117115726503694551==" --===============9117115726503694551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 9:39 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > > Liam, TriPOS ? > > If i'm not wrong it was a OS developed in Cambridge (Cambridgeshire). It was. The name came from the fact that a course at Cambridge University is called a Tripos. Originally written by Martin Richards (as in BCPL) > > Did someone port it to other arch than ARM ? The oldest version I know of ran on PDP11s. I am pretty sure there was a 68000 version at one point too. -tony --===============9117115726503694551==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Feb 21 11:18:56 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 05:18:52 -0600 Message-ID: <923201169.1396477.1708514332319@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8872231479187588368==" --===============8872231479187588368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 02/21/2024 5:01 AM CST Tony Duell via cctalk w= rote: > > > > Did someone port it to other arch than ARM ? > The oldest version I know of ran on PDP11s. I am pretty sure there was > a 68000 version at one point too. > > -tony Wasn't the Amiga OS built on Tripos? Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============8872231479187588368==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Feb 21 11:24:13 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NOT AT ALL ABOUT VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 03:23:57 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3679647482789494615==" --===============3679647482789494615== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This thread needs to die gracefully. Stop responding to it. This has nothing to do with VCF SoCal. At least change the subject of you're going to respond. Please stop hijacking threads with misleading subject headings. Have some respect for the list. Don't even respond to this. Just delete. Sellam On Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:06 AM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 9:39 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Liam, TriPOS ? > > > > If i'm not wrong it was a OS developed in Cambridge (Cambridgeshire). > > It was. The name came from the fact that a course at Cambridge > University is called a Tripos. Originally written by Martin Richards > (as in BCPL) > > > > > Did someone port it to other arch than ARM ? > > The oldest version I know of ran on PDP11s. I am pretty sure there was > a 68000 version at one point too. > > -tony > --===============3679647482789494615==-- From jacob.ritorto@gmail.com Fri Feb 23 23:47:18 2024 From: Jacob Ritorto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 18:46:37 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0431168969439087467==" --===============0431168969439087467== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi! Remember the blearrnnnnt-meeeeeelrp sounding seek oscillation noise that the RD54 makes when you turn it on -- after it spins up, unlatches and loads the heads? Well, I took a chance on an el-(c)heapo ePay special RD54 that does all these things perfectly up until the seek oscillation thing and then only makes one steady meeee- sound that seems to last indefinitely (or at least until I get tired of listening to it after a few minutes). Would anyone here know enough about these disks to venture a guess at where to begin troubleshooting this? thx jake P.S. If I'm being too vague, let me restate: I can hear it spin up, bearings sound normal, hear it unlock its head lock latch, then a perfectly *slight* noise of head actuation and the normal accompanying barely audible riding-on-air head noise. Then I expect to hear the two seek tones, but only get one steady seek tone that lasts (I assume) forever. --===============0431168969439087467==-- From bear@typewritten.org Sat Feb 24 00:01:23 2024 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 15:59:49 -0800 Message-ID: <76708A8C-4618-4A92-9D06-8BE90554E1CF@typewritten.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2424244864562307403==" --===============2424244864562307403== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Feb 23, 2024, at 3:46 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Would anyone here know enough about these disks to venture a guess at where > to begin troubleshooting this? voice coil positioner. ok bear. --===============2424244864562307403==-- From jacob.ritorto@gmail.com Sat Feb 24 00:15:38 2024 From: Jacob Ritorto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 19:14:58 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <76708A8C-4618-4A92-9D06-8BE90554E1CF@typewritten.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5095363832737412628==" --===============5095363832737412628== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 19:01, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > voice coil positioner. Yikes, so that's an "open the lid" situation, bear? Any "how to" advise / docs / anecdotes out there as I begin searching? --===============5095363832737412628==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sat Feb 24 02:25:30 2024 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 10:25:09 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0464199153671749886==" --===============0464199153671749886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It may be that the voice coil positioner is stuck due to some hardened grease. If that is the case, you could try holding the drive in your hand and flick your wrist hard several times to try to dislodge a possibly stuck voice coil. Alternatively you could flick the drive against something soft like your thigh or a rubber mat. Finally you could try to gently heat the drive to about 60 degrees C and then immediately before cooling connect it up to exercise the now hopefully loosened voice coil mechanism. On Sat, Feb 24, 2024 at 8:15 AM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 19:01, r.stricklin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > voice coil positioner. > > > Yikes, so that's an "open the lid" situation, bear? Any "how to" advise / > docs / anecdotes out there as I begin searching? > --===============0464199153671749886==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Feb 24 03:12:47 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 19:03:50 -0800 Message-ID: <6163f5d6-d482-4b13-9296-f117d618b448@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0550653556673926112==" --===============0550653556673926112== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if the XT2180 uses the same mech as the XT1140. That thing's initial seek would wake the dead.. --Chuck --===============0550653556673926112==-- From rickb@bensene.com Sat Feb 24 04:13:22 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 04:07:08 +0000 Message-ID: <91e2bda17a2f42e5b1a877213a9dc95b@bensene.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0096977770580139466==" --===============0096977770580139466== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just make sure when you torque the drive as mentioned that you rotate it in a= s close to the same axis of rotation as the platter(s) spin as possible, as a= ny other direction of torque could cause the head(s) to impact the platter(s)= with more energy than desirable, especially if the head(s) are positioned ov= er data areas. =20 Sometimes the actuator will not fully park when the drive is last powered off= , especially if things are already gummy. That can leave the heads over area= of the disk where data or servo information is recorded, potentially causing= damage that may not be repairable (without opening the sealed area), and lik= ely ruining part or all of the data on the drive (if you care about what's on= it) even if the positioner is "unstuck" by the torque. I have successfully (at least temporarily) resurrected some old Maxtor XT-114= 0 (ST-506) drives using this "twist" technique. My experience shows that th= e technique only works a few times and then it quits working. Thus, if you d= o get the drive running and care about the data that is on it, before powerin= g it up, get it connected up to a system that you can use to reliably archive= the content, because once you power it back down, it may get stuck worse tha= n it was before. I have not tried "cooking" the drive as also mentioned. =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hunter via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 6:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Tom Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep It may be that the voice coil positioner is stuck due to some hardened grease. If that is the case, you could try holding the drive in your hand and flick y= our wrist hard several times to try to dislodge a possibly stuck voice coil. Alternatively you could flick the drive against something soft like your thig= h or a rubber mat. Finally you could try to gently heat the drive to about 60 degrees C and then= immediately before cooling connect it up to exercise the now hopefully loose= ned voice coil mechanism. On Sat, Feb 24, 2024 at 8:15=E2=80=AFAM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < cctalk(a)c= lassiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 19:01, r.stricklin via cctalk <=20 > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > voice coil positioner. > > > Yikes, so that's an "open the lid" situation, bear? Any "how to"=20 > advise / docs / anecdotes out there as I begin searching? > --===============0096977770580139466==-- From shumaker@att.net Sat Feb 24 04:33:06 2024 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Overland Data Depot4 application Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 20:32:56 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2fa424a3-df2e-43bc-b62a-bc575814c1c1@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2956810255738215432==" --===============2956810255738215432== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Would you consider parting with it?  I've actually got the 1052S up and working with the Depot4 software but I'm still looking for a 6250 unit. Steve On 2/8/24 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 2/7/24 22:59, Nico de Jong via cctalk wrote: >> Maybe you dont know, but all the Qualstars I've met, are basically >> Pertec. I've run some 1052's on Overland software. >> > I have a 1260S that's a SCSI interface. The 1052 was also available > with a SCSI interface. Basically a 1260 or 1052 with a Pertec-to-SCSI > adapter installed. I also have a (disintegrating) Overland drive that's > Pertec and printer interface. > > > --Chuck > > --===============2956810255738215432==-- From shumaker@att.net Sat Feb 24 04:37:15 2024 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Overland Data Depot4 application Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 20:37:01 -0800 Message-ID: <1b207624-80e0-4cab-8af3-eb154b0203ea@att.net> In-Reply-To: <18c28272-f70a-42bd-afca-001ffb44005e@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6078054900005334887==" --===============6078054900005334887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the comments and suggestions!  The issue turned out to be an ASPI config problem in the startup files. Depot4 fired right up once it saw the ASPI driver. Steve On 2/9/24 7:26 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 2/8/24 00:59, Nico de Jong via cctalk wrote: >> >> Maybe you dont know, but all the Qualstars I've met, are basically >> Pertec. I've run some 1052's on Overland software. >> >> The 34xx series has a SCSI - Pertec interface, so if you remove this >> board, you have a Pertec drive. >> >> Thanks' >> >> Nico > Thanks, Nico.  I have both the Pertec and the SCSI 1052 and 1260. I > know inside there is a SCSI converter.  FWIW there is a SCSI to pertec > on both Kennedy and Cipher drives which will run Pertec when you pull > off the SCSI adapter on the back as well. > > I have a system called Pick which some here know, and have Pertec 9 > track software to allow the PC version R83 to access Pertec half inch > drives, FWIW.  At the early stages we met with the founders in San > Diego about their designs as well (Overland).  A friend developed and > marketed the Pick product with our engineering help. > > Thanks for noting about the Qualstars.  I have a skid of a mixture of > Cipher, IBM, Qualstar, M4 and some 100X rack mount as well as CDC.  I > haven't gotten into the mode of seeing if they still work, but "they > did from 10 to 40 years ago". > > thanks > Jim --===============6078054900005334887==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Feb 24 05:38:26 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Overland Data Depot4 application Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:38:16 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7814376525436462562==" --===============7814376525436462562== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/23/24 20:32, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > Would you consider parting with it?  I've actually got the 1052S up and > working with the Depot4 software but I'm still looking for a 6250 unit. > Hi Steve, I might consider a trade, but to be perfectly frank, I don't think you'd like it. At 6250, the tape speed is slow, slow slow and really isn't fast enough to generate a reliable signal in the read head. You need an almnost-perfect tape for it to work. At least that's my experience. I use the drive mostly for spot checks on tapes,rather than for archiving. The SCSI controller has a 256KB buffer and will shoeshine things to death if it can't get a solid read. I recommend a good drive; an M4, Cipher, HP, Fujitsu, CDC etc. The Qualstar is too much of a dog walking on its hind legs, if you catch my drift. All the best, Chuck --===============7814376525436462562==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Sat Feb 24 07:22:10 2024 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] @r.stricklin about VMS TK50 images Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 08:21:54 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1565115414366722897==" --===============1565115414366722897== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I tried several times to contact you directly via bear(a)typewriiten.org, but no success, so I'm trying it this way now: Could you please provide the images for the following software from your collection: - AQ-KZ18B-BE VAX/VMS V4.7A BIN TK50 - AQ-JG62A-BN MicroVMS V4.5 BIN TK50 - AQ-JT80A-BN MicroVMS V4.5B BIN TK50 I'm a collector of DEC hardware and software and I like to complete my "OldVMS collection". You know it's like stamp collecting - you always want the complete set ... Let me know if there is anything I can do for you! Regards Ulli The VAXorcist --===============1565115414366722897==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sat Feb 24 11:42:26 2024 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 19:42:12 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <91e2bda17a2f42e5b1a877213a9dc95b@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5145243382474974121==" --===============5145243382474974121== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Rick for clarifying my somewhat ambiguous description of how to dislodge a stuck voice coil mechanism. On Sat, 24 Feb 2024, 12:13 pm Rick Bensene via cctalk, < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Just make sure when you torque the drive as mentioned that you rotate it > in as close to the same axis of rotation as the platter(s) spin as > possible, as any other direction of torque could cause the head(s) to > impact the platter(s) with more energy than desirable, especially if the > head(s) are positioned over data areas. > > Sometimes the actuator will not fully park when the drive is last powered > off, especially if things are already gummy. That can leave the heads over > area of the disk where data or servo information is recorded, potentially > causing damage that may not be repairable (without opening the sealed > area), and likely ruining part or all of the data on the drive (if you care > about what's on it) even if the positioner is "unstuck" by the torque. > > I have successfully (at least temporarily) resurrected some old Maxtor > XT-1140 (ST-506) drives using this "twist" technique. My experience shows > that the technique only works a few times and then it quits working. Thus, > if you do get the drive running and care about the data that is on it, > before powering it up, get it connected up to a system that you can use to > reliably archive the content, because once you power it back down, it may > get stuck worse than it was before. > > I have not tried "cooking" the drive as also mentioned. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Hunter via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 6:25 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Tom Hunter > Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep > > It may be that the voice coil positioner is stuck due to some hardened > grease. > If that is the case, you could try holding the drive in your hand and > flick your wrist hard several times to try to dislodge a possibly stuck > voice coil. > Alternatively you could flick the drive against something soft like your > thigh or a rubber mat. > Finally you could try to gently heat the drive to about 60 degrees C and > then immediately before cooling connect it up to exercise the now hopefully > loosened voice coil mechanism. > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2024 at 8:15 AM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 19:01, r.stricklin via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > > > voice coil positioner. > > > > > > Yikes, so that's an "open the lid" situation, bear? Any "how to" > > advise / docs / anecdotes out there as I begin searching? > > > --===============5145243382474974121==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sat Feb 24 13:20:03 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 13:19:44 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <05fd4f0cca7f5dd51a16f4a28c867a65dc292f6c.camel@agj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4351016204186130925==" --===============4351016204186130925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 09:33, Stefan Skoglund wro= te: > > Liam, TriPOS ? > > If i'm not wrong it was a OS developed in Cambridge (Cambridgeshire). > > Did someone port it to other arch than ARM ? I am mystified. This appeared in a thread about the VCF SoCal and apropos of nothing with no quote. Have I said anything about Tripos anywhere? --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4351016204186130925==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Feb 24 14:09:59 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 09:09:30 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1988176302268029023==" --===============1988176302268029023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Back in the day when these disks were common I used to elicit a good laugh from my boss when I got out my little mallet and smacked the side of the drive. Stiction was the problem but a good hammer fixes anything. And, no, I never had it damage a disk. I guess it was all in the technique. :-) bill --===============1988176302268029023==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Feb 24 17:30:54 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 09:30:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2597303250182296337==" --===============2597303250182296337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "...blearrnnnnt-meeeeeelrp..." Best audio-to-text descriptive ever. Sellam On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:47 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi! Remember the blearrnnnnt-meeeeeelrp sounding seek oscillation noise > that the RD54 makes when you turn it on -- after it spins up, unlatches and > loads the heads? > > Well, I took a chance on an el-(c)heapo ePay special RD54 that does all > these things perfectly up until the seek oscillation thing and then only > makes one steady meeee- sound that seems to last indefinitely (or at least > until I get tired of listening to it after a few minutes). > > Would anyone here know enough about these disks to venture a guess at where > to begin troubleshooting this? > > > thx > jake > > P.S. If I'm being too vague, let me restate: I can hear it spin up, > bearings sound normal, hear it unlock its head lock latch, then a perfectly > *slight* noise of head actuation and the normal accompanying barely audible > riding-on-air head noise. Then I expect to hear the two seek tones, but > only get one steady seek tone that lasts (I assume) forever. > --===============2597303250182296337==-- From rickb@bensene.com Sat Feb 24 17:41:35 2024 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 17:41:09 +0000 Message-ID: <349e56ef44084c629ea226cdbe5646a8@bensene.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB57378A51030F6B59E2C54525ED542=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5551237692961065700==" --===============5551237692961065700== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unsticking stiction is different than dislodging a stuck actuator. =20 Stiction is where the heads resting on the disk surface resist the torque of = the spindle drive, causing the drive not to spin up. Generally it is caused = by weak driver transistors in the spindle drive such that the spindle motor d= oes not generate sufficient torque to overcome the static tension on the disk= caused by the numerous heads sitting on it. =20 This didn't happen on drives that retracted the heads either completely off o= f the disk surface, or had a ramp mechanism that raised the heads off the sur= face when the heads were retracted. The retraction would occur at power off= when a large capacitor was discharged across the voicecoil with enough energ= y to pull the heads to the parking position. =20 However, some drives actually had a dedicated landing zone on the disk surfac= es where the heads could gently settle down (land) onto the disk surface as t= he platters spun down. It was this type of drive that tended to have issues = with stiction.=20 Other cases where stiction could become a problem is in situations where the = power-off retract didn't work properly, leaving the heads in contact with the= disk surface when they weren't supposed to be. In these situations, if th= e stiction was cleared by rapping the drive the right way, data damage could = occur. =20 In the case of stiction where there is a landing zone, since there's no data/= servo information in the landing zone area, causing an abrupt acceleration in= the correct axis could dislodge the heads, allowing the drive to spin up pro= perly. So, rapping them with a hammer was a solution for these cases, though= I typically used a small-sized dead-blow rubber mallet rather than a hammer,= as it wouldn't induce as much resonance as rapping the HDA case with a metal= -headed hammer.=20 Also, I managed to use a variant of the "twist" method to clear stiction. I = would hook a power connector to the drive, with a switch that switched the +1= 2 and +5 power. I would hold the drive in one hand, and the switch in the ot= her. I'd throw the switch to the ON position, and at the same time, give the= drive a quick twist. The twist would accelerate the platters just enough to= overcome the stiction such that the spindle drive could start up properly. = I'd let it run long enough to warm up, then shut it off, and quickly hook it= up to the archival system, and it'd properly spin up and I could get the dat= a off. I also used the hammer method to release stiction. =20 Another trick was for drives whose read/write amplifiers (which were typicall= y situated within the sealed chamber, thus not replaceable except in a clean-= room facility) had become flakey, and the drive would start getting lots of I= /O errors. =20 I would take the drive and put it inside a large ziplock bag, along with a ba= g of desiccant(this part is really important to suck up moisture in the air i= n the bag), and a small battery-powered digital thermometer. I'd put it in t= he freezer until the drive had reached roughly 42F, and then take it out, and= immediately hook it up to an archival system and power it up while it was st= ill cold. =20 This would allow me to get the data off without I/O errors as long as I could= get what I needed before the drive warmed up enough that the weakness in the= amplifiers again became a problem. I found out about this trick somewhere = on USENET many moons ago. It worked for me a number of times. =20 I can't say that it'd work on anything more recent than /early/ 3.5" hard dis= k drives, though. Newer technology drives have such tight tolerances that the= cooling might cause shrinkage that could cause head crashes, so take heed. = -----Original Message----- From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2024 6:10 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Bill Gunshannon Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Back in the day when these disks were common I used to elicit a good laugh fr= om my boss when I got out my little mallet and smacked the side of the drive.= Stiction was the problem but a good hammer fixes anything. And, no, I never= had it damage a disk. I guess it was all in the technique. :-) bill --===============5551237692961065700==-- From kantexplain@protonmail.com Sat Feb 24 20:36:52 2024 From: Just Kant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Turbo Prolog Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 20:36:35 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5165917774409600547==" --===============5165917774409600547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone used it or something contemporaneous? Is it at all applicable to any degree to today's approach to AI/machine learn= ing tasks? I would like to perhaps eventually create a game, probably not che= ss, lilely something simpler. The old expert system modeling paradigm seems t= o have largely if not entirely fallen out of favor. From what I'm reading tho= ugh TP seems to be geared for that. --===============5165917774409600547==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Sun Feb 25 04:32:07 2024 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 20:22:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CeEVYn9ziaSxF4KzW9XsjVSxxlbThG5v5LOZd6qacyztQcpwSxZ?= =?utf-8?q?82ZFcv37VWMJ1XTCBSSwL=5FxS5EamieJE5oZOI=5Fex20YwAWH39n9OhPFa0=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40protonmail=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1788585875075005645==" --===============1788585875075005645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I bought it when my first ship was in Bahrain, but never did anything with it= . I think I still have the manuals, but am not sure about the floppies. May= be something for when I retire. Zane=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 24, 2024, at 12:36=E2=80=AFPM, Just Kant via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHas anyone used it or something contemporaneous? > Is it at all applicable to any degree to today's approach to AI/machine lea= rning tasks? I would like to perhaps eventually create a game, probably not c= hess, lilely something simpler. The old expert system modeling paradigm seems= to have largely if not entirely fallen out of favor. From what I'm reading t= hough TP seems to be geared for that. --===============1788585875075005645==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Sun Feb 25 13:41:35 2024 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 14:35:59 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CeEVYn9ziaSxF4KzW9XsjVSxxlbThG5v5LOZd6qacyztQcpwSxZ?= =?utf-8?q?82ZFcv37VWMJ1XTCBSSwL=5FxS5EamieJE5oZOI=5Fex20YwAWH39n9OhPFa0=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40protonmail=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6901492799334084430==" --===============6901492799334084430== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Feb 24, 2024 at 08:36:35PM +0000, Just Kant via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone used it or something contemporaneous? Not me, at least not yet. I am kind of wet dreaming about it, so maybe one day. > Is it at all applicable to any degree to today's approach to > AI/machine learning tasks? I would like to perhaps eventually create > a game, probably not chess, lilely something simpler. The old expert > system modeling paradigm seems to have largely if not entirely > fallen out of favor. From what I'm reading though TP seems to be > geared for that. AI is many things, and one of them is Chad Geppetto. I think Prolog is quite underappreciated and it might be more relevant (at least in some cases) simply because, unlike Chad, one's code in Prolog will not hallucinate. Unless this is exactly what you put into it. From my point of view, Chad is close to useless, because I could not trust the results. It would tell me a story in a second and I would then spent a day or a week trying to verify veracity of it. But Chad is a new fancy of some people. As long as it does not become my problem, I see no problem. As of games, I would first test the language. I do not think real-time kind of speed/reaction was in Prolog's design criteria. I would try OCaml for games - never used this either, but I have read they keep their compiler stable and code written umpty (twenty?) years ago compiles nowadays without changes. You may appreciate this when your game turns fifteen years old. I have read about guy who first coded his game in Java and gradually driven himself to a point when he could no longer maintain it, so he rewrote in OCaml. I have read about other guy, who wrote their tool in Python and for whatever reason (do not remember) rewrote it on OCaml, again. They sounded satisfied with their choices. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============6901492799334084430==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Feb 25 15:09:32 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 07:09:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <349e56ef44084c629ea226cdbe5646a8@bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8694268373001728062==" --===============8694268373001728062== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 24, 2024, 9:41 AM Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > Another trick was for drives whose read/write amplifiers (which were > typically situated within the sealed chamber, thus not replaceable except > in a clean-room facility) had become flakey, and the drive would start > getting lots of I/O errors. > > I would take the drive and put it inside a large ziplock bag, along with a > bag of desiccant(this part is really important to suck up moisture in the > air in the bag), and a small battery-powered digital thermometer. I'd put > it in the freezer until the drive had reached roughly 42F, and then take it > out, and immediately hook it up to an archival system and power it up while > it was still cold. > > This would allow me to get the data off without I/O errors as long as I > could get what I needed before the drive warmed up enough that the weakness > in the amplifiers again became a problem. I found out about this trick > somewhere on USENET many moons ago. It worked for me a number of times. > This jogged some brain cells. I vaguely recall placing a container full of ice on top of a drive to keep it cool enough during operation for its bearings to not start screaming before I was able to copy all the data of of it. Sellam > --===============8694268373001728062==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun Feb 25 17:24:09 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Another blast from the past... Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 12:23:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3937237979878332448==" --===============3937237979878332448== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, here I was binge watching a scifi series called "Night Sky", which sadly was not renewed, but I digress... In one of the episodes two of the characters go to see a man who apparently is a monitor for something having to do with the devices that teleport people all over not only earth but other planets as well. He has this workbench covered with computers that look like mostly PC's but some could be Suns or other real computers. And many displays with really cool graphics. And sitting in the middle of all of this is ------- An IMSAI-8080. :-) Front panel is clearly visible in a number of scenes. Of course, with the program being canceled one has to wonder, did it go back into a prop warehouse somewhere or just the nearest dumpster? :-( bill --===============3937237979878332448==-- From wheagy@gmail.com Sun Feb 25 19:22:17 2024 From: Win Heagy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 14:22:00 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7283997552876802234==" --===============7283997552876802234== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I bought a copy at a mall in Nashville TN some 30+ years ago. I was working at an airline at the time and was interested in the crew scheduling problem, as well as all things AI related. I never got too far using Prolog on that particular problem. I found the disks and manual like 13 years ago and made a short video and put it on youtube. Turbo Prolog was pretty speedy even on old hardware. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svcxu0xiH34 Win --===============7283997552876802234==-- From norwayjose@mac.com Sun Feb 25 19:51:05 2024 From: Rod Bartlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 14:41:30 -0500 Message-ID: <29CAF0FA-6C62-46B0-832E-211E0442DCD7@mac.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CeEVYn9ziaSxF4KzW9XsjVSxxlbThG5v5LOZd6qacyztQcpwSxZ?= =?utf-8?q?82ZFcv37VWMJ1XTCBSSwL=5FxS5EamieJE5oZOI=5Fex20YwAWH39n9OhPFa0=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40protonmail=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4437096465337272558==" --===============4437096465337272558== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 35 years ago I got tasked to write a simple expert system in Turbo Prolog bec= ause I was familiar with Turbo Pascal. The goal was an application to assist= new members of the help desk. I have vague recollections of having to defin= e rules to evaluate answers to simple questions. What I remember seems far r= emoved from what I know of modern AI implementations. - Rod > On Feb 24, 2024, at 3:36=E2=80=AFPM, Just Kant via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Has anyone used it or something contemporaneous? > Is it at all applicable to any degree to today's approach to AI/machine lea= rning tasks? I would like to perhaps eventually create a game, probably not c= hess, lilely something simpler. The old expert system modeling paradigm seems= to have largely if not entirely fallen out of favor. From what I'm reading t= hough TP seems to be geared for that. --===============4437096465337272558==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sun Feb 25 19:57:03 2024 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 14:51:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1436110502267521103==" --===============1436110502267521103== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is quite possible to put a touch of watch oil on the shaft of an=20 older drive (without opening it) to quiet the bearings and re-libricate=20 the grease. I'm still running RD54's and RD53's without much of an=20 issue, firing them up every few months seems to keep them happy. Same for RD51's and RD50's. By the time you get to the full height=20 Hitachi ESDI and CDC half height ESDI drives they just seem to work=20 without complaining. No issues there. C (I love RD53's: They were the biggest disk you could run in a=20 Pro/350-380 and I have opened them to free stuck heads. They have an=20 absolute air filter in there which filters the air as it is sucked into=20 the spindle to be blown out over the heads, so to be honest I think you=20 can open and close them without the world coming to an end. Just don't sprinkle salt from a shaker into the drive to see if the=20 heads will FINALLY crash (yes, eventually that will do it). On 2/25/2024 10:09 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Feb 24, 2024, 9:41 AM Rick Bensene via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> >> Another trick was for drives whose read/write amplifiers (which were >> typically situated within the sealed chamber, thus not replaceable except >> in a clean-room facility) had become flakey, and the drive would start >> getting lots of I/O errors. >> >> I would take the drive and put it inside a large ziplock bag, along with a >> bag of desiccant(this part is really important to suck up moisture in the >> air in the bag), and a small battery-powered digital thermometer. I'd put >> it in the freezer until the drive had reached roughly 42F, and then take it >> out, and immediately hook it up to an archival system and power it up while >> it was still cold. >> >> This would allow me to get the data off without I/O errors as long as I >> could get what I needed before the drive warmed up enough that the weakness >> in the amplifiers again became a problem. I found out about this trick >> somewhere on USENET many moons ago. It worked for me a number of times. >> >=20 > This jogged some brain cells. I vaguely recall placing a container full of > ice on top of a drive to keep it cool enough during operation for its > bearings to not start screaming before I was able to copy all the data of > of it. >=20 > Sellam >=20 >> --===============1436110502267521103==-- From kantexplain@protonmail.com Sun Feb 25 21:15:51 2024 From: Just Kant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 21:15:25 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1599381777929395367==" --===============1599381777929395367== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So the portions of code belonging to chatgpt which produce the hallucinations= have been isolated? Which languages were used to build it? --===============1599381777929395367==-- From gavin@learn.bio Sun Feb 25 22:20:20 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 16:20:04 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CFMjzNcGWcoiuO3567DESTef9C0zYEBt8g9qVbs5iUxWfw8Y8Yh?= =?utf-8?q?gkYleXqGcEhbFe4CO2zzF7vtxFHp4OA7-WKLEM2CqAY8jH0DcirGIfMsw=3D=40pr?= =?utf-8?q?otonmail=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7711137817933675831==" --===============7711137817933675831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 3:15=E2=80=AFPM Just Kant via cctalk wrote: > So the portions of code belonging to chatgpt which produce the hallucinatio= ns have been isolated? It's a massive deep neural network, so you can't really isolate anything. But there are parameters that you can use to tune it, like how quickly it forgets earlier parts of a conversation, etc. and some people speculate that they tweaked something like that which resulted in the recent issues. > Which languages were used to build it? One could say Python, but that mostly sits on top of C++, which then invokes CUDA (or TPU or similar) code, but at the bottom it's all just matrix multiplication. Polog and other Logic Programming tools aren't applicable to Machine Learning approaches which is all anyone is interested in for "AI" these days. If you want to make a rules-based expert system, and you know what all the rules are, then Prolog might still be a useful tool. Turbo Pascal is even still available as its originators took it back from Borland and made it into Visual Prolog for Windows which has a free personal edition (the commercial license is only 100 euros too). Also there's GNU Prolog if you just want to futz around with Prolog. --===============7711137817933675831==-- From gavin@learn.bio Sun Feb 25 22:21:37 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 16:21:21 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9109545853870872892==" --===============9109545853870872892== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Of course I mean Turbo Prolog there, sorry. On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 4:20=E2=80=AFPM Gavin Scott wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 3:15=E2=80=AFPM Just Kant via cctalk > wrote: > > > So the portions of code belonging to chatgpt which produce the hallucinat= ions have been isolated? > > It's a massive deep neural network, so you can't really isolate > anything. But there are parameters that you can use to tune it, like > how quickly it forgets earlier parts of a conversation, etc. and some > people speculate that they tweaked something like that which resulted > in the recent issues. > > > Which languages were used to build it? > > One could say Python, but that mostly sits on top of C++, which then > invokes CUDA (or TPU or similar) code, but at the bottom it's all just > matrix multiplication. > > Polog and other Logic Programming tools aren't applicable to Machine > Learning approaches which is all anyone is interested in for "AI" > these days. If you want to make a rules-based expert system, and you > know what all the rules are, then Prolog might still be a useful tool. > Turbo Pascal is even still available as its originators took it back > from Borland and made it into Visual Prolog for Windows which has a > free personal edition (the commercial license is only 100 euros too). > Also there's GNU Prolog if you just want to futz around with Prolog. --===============9109545853870872892==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Feb 25 23:42:02 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 17:41:55 -0600 Message-ID: <58a39e97-4360-7ed0-6664-8300ce0a483c@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5385736682525589694==" --===============5385736682525589694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/25/24 16:20, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > > Turbo Pascal is even still available as its originators took it back > from Borland and made it into Visual Prolog for Windows which has a > free personal edition (the commercial license is only 100 euros too). > Also there's GNU Prolog if you just want to futz around with Prolog. I wrote a large application in Turbo Pascal in 1996 or so, and it had been cast adrift since then.  The computer it ran on was getting old and I was worried it would die, and then I discovered FPC (Free Pascal Compiler).  It was designed to port over Turbo Pascal and DEC Pascal programs, and took the separate compilation directives like uses and $I.  I was able to get that program running on a Linux system in a few days. Jon --===============5385736682525589694==-- From kantexplain@protonmail.com Mon Feb 26 00:01:53 2024 From: Just Kant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 00:01:40 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <58a39e97-4360-7ed0-6664-8300ce0a483c@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0208620388763999043==" --===============0208620388763999043== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He meant to say Prolog, not Pascal. Regardless if you want to alleviate all the fuss and mess of running 16 bit w= ares on modern h/w, just look for a 32 bit cast off. Many appropriate mobos c= an be had on epay for a song. Now no one I know wants to spend the next 40 years writing 16 bit apps. But i= f it can't be (easily) done otherwise, it can be done on raw metal cheaply. Sent with Proton Mail secure email. On Sunday, February 25th, 2024 at 6:41 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I wrote a large application in Turbo Pascal in 1996 or so, > and it had been cast adrift since then. The computer it ran > on was getting old and I was worried it would die, and then > I discovered FPC (Free Pascal Compiler). It was designed to > port over Turbo Pascal and DEC Pascal programs, and took the > separate compilation directives like uses and $I. I was > able to get that program running on a Linux system in a few > days. >=20 > Jon --===============0208620388763999043==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Feb 26 03:55:10 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Seeking Z180 Assembly Programmer Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 19:54:53 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5865248490703554352==" --===============5865248490703554352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was at the VCF SoCal last weekend I met a gentleman who was looking for someone with Zilog Z180 assembly language experience. He says he needs someone to rewrite code in what sounds like some kind of terminal server product he sells(?) to convert the protocol it uses from Televideo format to ANSI (because Televideo is getting harder to support). This gentleman said he has a modest budget for the project. Let me know if you might be particularly qualified and interested and I'll put you in touch with him and you can go from there. Sellam --===============5865248490703554352==-- From jon@jonworld.com Mon Feb 26 13:20:38 2024 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] =?utf-8?q?Mexico=E2=80=99s?= SNIPE system? Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 13:20:21 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1712090590437588698==" --===============1712090590437588698== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A bit of an odd one=E2=80=A6. I=E2=80=99m trying to figure out what type of computers ran Mexico=E2=80=99s = infamous SNIPE electoral vote system in 1988. I have an LA Times article from 1994 talking about how the NEW system was RS/6000-based. But this was a system built in 1987-1988. Narcos Mexico had a pretty re-creation but I didn=E2=80=99t spy any brand names. Any ideas? I figure there may be photos or press releases from that time but my Google-fu (and espa=C3=B1ol) is weak. -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============1712090590437588698==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Feb 26 16:48:15 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another blast from the past... Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 19:20:21 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB5737D514CC725EFAF858B285ED5B2=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7362632633500362255==" --===============7362632633500362255== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Most of the computer props are rented from other companies so probably they w= ere not dumpstered. Apex electronics in Sun Valley, Ca is an electronics stor= e with lots of recycled equipment and components for sale. They have a sectio= n roped off that displays old terminals that can be rented for props. It=E2= =80=99s fun to browse there.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 25, 2024, at 09:24, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 > So, here I was binge watching a scifi series called "Night Sky", > which sadly was not renewed, but I digress... >=20 > In one of the episodes two of the characters go to see a man who > apparently is a monitor for something having to do with the devices > that teleport people all over not only earth but other planets as well. > He has this workbench covered with computers that look like mostly > PC's but some could be Suns or other real computers. And many displays > with really cool graphics. And sitting in the middle of all of this > is ------- An IMSAI-8080. :-) Front panel is clearly visible in a > number of scenes. >=20 > Of course, with the program being canceled one has to wonder, did it > go back into a prop warehouse somewhere or just the nearest dumpster? > :-( >=20 > bill --===============7362632633500362255==-- From jacob.ritorto@gmail.com Mon Feb 26 22:29:39 2024 From: Jacob Ritorto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 17:28:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7350250778943900405==" --===============7350250778943900405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the good ideas and convo everyone. Now please do note that I can definitely hear motor/platter spinup happening so it's definitely not "heads stuck to platter" stiction. I hear the lock unlatch and I *think* I even hear the heads load and fly (comparing what I hear on this drive to other drives I've actually seen the guts of in flying action) so I substantially doubt it's "arm stuck to lock pad goo" stiction. So we've made it through a lot of the powerup sequence and the problem is at the final part - the track scan up and back down the surface - the phase when the signature "...blearrnnnnt-meeeeeelrp..." happens :) And yes I believe from memory that XT-2190 is supposed to make the same track scan noise as the XT-1140 (I have an XT-1140 running perfectly as a fake RD54 in another pdp here). So could my behaviour of being hung at the final phase - the track scan noise - be the result of a lost servo track? Thinking about that, didn't someone on this list kill an XT-2190 recently by taking an outrageous magnet to it? Did you get the same track scan failure as I'm getting? Confused electronics on the PCB? Something else? Where would one begin diagnosing this particular problem? I did try the wrist twist torquing thing. And lightly whacking side of housing with palm of hand during track scan noise. Declining to do that hard, tho. Powered off and back on (to retry) probably near a hundred times now. Heated it gently in front of our forced-air furnace duct until comfortably warm to touch - probably near 105 F. All these produced absolutely zero behaviour change. thx jake --===============7350250778943900405==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Feb 26 22:35:40 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 22:35:33 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7519405504012608181==" --===============7519405504012608181== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here=E2=80=99s some info. https://www.stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/maxtor/XT-2190-155MB-5-25-FH= -MFM-ST506.html It does sound like it can=E2=80=99t seek. Maybe a jumper incorrect? Sent from my iPhone On Feb 26, 2024, at 14:29, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk = wrote: =EF=BB=BFThanks for the good ideas and convo everyone. Now please do note that I can definitely hear motor/platter spinup happening so it's definitely not "heads stuck to platter" stiction. I hear the lock unlatch and I *think* I even hear the heads load and fly (comparing what I hear on this drive to other drives I've actually seen the guts of in flying action) so I substantially doubt it's "arm stuck to lock pad goo" stiction. So we've made it through a lot of the powerup sequence and the problem is at the final part - the track scan up and back down the surface - the phase when the signature "...blearrnnnnt-meeeeeelrp..." happens :) And yes I believe from memory that XT-2190 is supposed to make the same track scan noise as the XT-1140 (I have an XT-1140 running perfectly as a fake RD54 in another pdp here). So could my behaviour of being hung at the final phase - the track scan noise - be the result of a lost servo track? Thinking about that, didn't someone on this list kill an XT-2190 recently by taking an outrageous magnet to it? Did you get the same track scan failure as I'm getting? Confused electronics on the PCB? Something else? Where would one begin diagnosing this particular problem? I did try the wrist twist torquing thing. And lightly whacking side of housing with palm of hand during track scan noise. Declining to do that hard, tho. Powered off and back on (to retry) probably near a hundred times now. Heated it gently in front of our forced-air furnace duct until comfortably warm to touch - probably near 105 F. All these produced absolutely zero behaviour change. thx jake --===============7519405504012608181==-- From erik@baigar.de Tue Feb 27 06:23:17 2024 From: "Dr. Erik Baigar" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 07:17:05 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1624054252215014455==" --===============1624054252215014455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there - recently I posted a small video on a rugged paper tape casette... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2jnThYsPKc I wonder whether anyone kows if someone else had the idea of putting paper/mylar tape into a casette for repeated use e.g. to load an OS or similar. Best wishes, Erik. ''~`` ( o o ) +------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.---------------------------+ | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | | Salzstrasse 1 .oooO Vintage Computer | | D87616 Marktoberdorf ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist / Physicist | | erik(a)baigar.de +----\ (----( )-----------------------------+ | www.baigar.de | \_) ) / +----------------------+ (_/ --===============1624054252215014455==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Tue Feb 27 07:58:55 2024 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 22:50:56 -0500 Message-ID: <2e42d814-b687-4a7c-a311-33909cabf697@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1342877425212867157==" --===============1342877425212867157== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh wait, that sound? Over and over? I had a RD54 type drive that I hit with a magnet by mistake and took out the servo platter. Got that sound, over and over because the drive used servo loop positioning and couldn't find the servo track. Since you probably didn't do this, check to see if you get a signal off the servo head, and the preamps there. That might actually be it. C On 2/26/2024 5:28 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for the good ideas and convo everyone. > > Now please do note that I can definitely hear motor/platter spinup > happening so it's definitely not "heads stuck to platter" stiction. > > I hear the lock unlatch and I *think* I even hear the heads load and fly > (comparing what I hear on this drive to other drives I've actually seen the > guts of in flying action) so I substantially doubt it's "arm stuck to lock > pad goo" stiction. > > So we've made it through a lot of the powerup sequence and the problem is > at the final part - the track scan up and back down the surface - the phase > when the signature "...blearrnnnnt-meeeeeelrp..." happens :) > > And yes I believe from memory that XT-2190 is supposed to make the same > track scan noise as the XT-1140 (I have an XT-1140 running perfectly as a > fake RD54 in another pdp here). > > So could my behaviour of being hung at the final phase - the track scan > noise - be the result of a lost servo track? Thinking about that, didn't > someone on this list kill an XT-2190 recently by taking an outrageous > magnet to it? Did you get the same track scan failure as I'm getting? > > Confused electronics on the PCB? > > Something else? > > Where would one begin diagnosing this particular problem? > > I did try the wrist twist torquing thing. > > And lightly whacking side of housing with palm of hand during track scan > noise. Declining to do that hard, tho. > > Powered off and back on (to retry) probably near a hundred times now. > > Heated it gently in front of our forced-air furnace duct until comfortably > warm to touch - probably near 105 F. > > All these produced absolutely zero behaviour change. > > thx > jake --===============1342877425212867157==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Feb 27 14:23:07 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 09:22:37 -0500 Message-ID: <8E53C8EC-D3F1-47CF-BD58-2D19C55B2F95@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0807055421631168374==" --===============0807055421631168374== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Feb 27, 2024, at 1:17 AM, Dr. Erik Baigar via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi there - recently I posted a small video on a rugged > paper tape casette... >=20 > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DO2jnThYsPKc >=20 > I wonder whether anyone kows if someone else had the idea > of putting paper/mylar tape into a casette for repeated use > e.g. to load an OS or similar. >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 > Erik. Interesting! The only "heavy use" approach to paper tape I have seen is the = use of mylar tape instead of paper. OS boot tapes might be punched on that. = My father had a machine in his lab (precision measurement lab) in which a ta= pe of correction data was used. That was punched on mylar. I think there are two variants of mylar tape: mylar sandwiched with paper, wh= ich looks much like plain paper tape, and simple mylar alone. The latter oft= en comes metallized on one side, and is glossy. The metallization I suspect = is for reliable optical reading, to avoid problems with the mylar alone being= too translucent. Optical readers are pretty gentle in their tape handling even at high speed, = at least if they can avoid starting and stopping. At TU Eindhoven, where pap= er tape was the exclusive input medium for the university mainframe computer = (Electrologica X8), they used optical readers rated at 2000 characters per se= cond. These could start and stop very quickly but in normal use were spooled= to drum so they were moving all the time. The input side would be a roll; o= n the way out of the reader the tape would drop into a bucket from which it c= ould be rewound with a separate tape winder. I don't remember if the X8 tape reader could stop between characters. I know= the X1 reader (1000 cps I think) could do so, which is quite an amazing mech= anical accomplishment. paul --===============0807055421631168374==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Feb 27 15:05:35 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 09:05:29 -0600 Message-ID: <6968f3bd-e06f-fe93-357f-c001ddff79eb@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5304844099683122330==" --===============5304844099683122330== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/27/24 00:17, Dr. Erik Baigar via cctalk wrote: > > > I wonder whether anyone kows if someone else had the idea > of putting paper/mylar tape into a casette for repeated use > e.g. to load an OS or similar. I think the Bendix G-15 had cassettes for the 5-level tape they used. I had an optical reader that was designed for some kind of cassette, but I never had the cassettes.  But, it could be used with open spools of tape. Jon --===============5304844099683122330==-- From erik@baigar.de Tue Feb 27 16:05:47 2024 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:58:23 +0200 Message-ID: <1709049503322.null> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0956091181815632235==" --===============0956091181815632235== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jon! > think the Bendix G-15 had cassettes for the 5-level tape > they used. Aha, interesting! Did a short search, but have not been able to find a picture of a casette. Just a pile of paper tape instead ;-) https://images.app.goo.gl/HYqkpYHJUxZeGfiA8 > of mylar tape instead of paper. OS boot tapes might be punched > on that. Yes, for heavy use (and e.g. humid environments), the mil guys obviously used Mylar or heavily oiled tape. Although not experrienced myself, I was told that the Mylar tape cuts through the guiding pins of the readers over time. And yes, it also may easily cut one's fingers ;-) > much like plain paper tape, and simple mylar alone. The latter often > comes metallized on one side, and is glossy. Yes, that is the one within the casette and the aluminum as you expect is for optical reading (Most plastics including Mylar are quite transparent for IR light and in the old days, when thungsten bulbs where used, the IR part of the light was the major part contributing to the response of the photodiodes! > input medium for the university mainframe computer (Electrologica X8), > they used optical readers rated at 2000 characters per second. Wow - that is indeed pretty fast!!! My FACIT is 1200cps maximum and stopping "on character" as it is called is VERY hard at that speed. But buffering helps here and in case of the 920M, the casette is used for, there was no buffering. So software needs to be read in one run. Best wishes, Erik. ''~`` ( o o ) +--------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.-------------------------+ | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | | Salzstrasse 1 .oooO Vintage Computer | | D87616 Marktoberdorf ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist / Physicist | | erik(a)baigar.de +------\ (----( )---------------------------+ | www.baigar.de | \_) ) / +----------------------+ (_/ --===============0956091181815632235==-- From rodsmallwood52@btinternet.com Tue Feb 27 16:20:18 2024 From: Rod Smallwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 08:31:18 +0000 Message-ID: <0632ce4d-e78e-4d7c-92c9-eecf2a2ccf48@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: <2e42d814-b687-4a7c-a311-33909cabf697@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5567714166233603434==" --===============5567714166233603434== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Get a sheet of glass. In a not too dusty area (hint A/C has filers usually) gloves on Top off glass on - all will be revealed. Rod - Digital Equipment Corporation  1975 - 1985 On 27/02/2024 03:50, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Oh wait, that sound? Over and over? > > I had a RD54 type drive that I hit with a magnet by mistake and took > out the servo platter. Got that sound, over and over because the drive > used servo loop positioning and couldn't find the servo track. > > Since you probably didn't do this, check to see if you get a signal > off the servo head, and the preamps there. That might actually be it. > > C > > > On 2/26/2024 5:28 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: >> Thanks for the good ideas and convo everyone. >> >> Now please do note that I can definitely hear motor/platter spinup >> happening so it's definitely not "heads stuck to platter" stiction. >> >> I hear the lock unlatch and I *think* I even hear the heads load and fly >> (comparing what I hear on this drive to other drives I've actually >> seen the >> guts of in flying action) so I substantially doubt it's "arm stuck to >> lock >> pad goo" stiction. >> >> So we've made it through a lot of the powerup sequence and the >> problem is >> at the final part - the track scan up and back down the surface - the >> phase >> when the signature "...blearrnnnnt-meeeeeelrp..." happens :) >> >> And yes I believe from memory that XT-2190 is supposed to make the same >> track scan noise as the XT-1140 (I have an XT-1140 running perfectly >> as a >> fake RD54 in another pdp here). >> >> So could my behaviour of being hung at the final phase - the track scan >> noise - be the result of a lost servo track?  Thinking about that, >> didn't >> someone on this list kill an XT-2190 recently by taking an outrageous >> magnet to it?  Did you get the same track scan failure as I'm getting? >> >> Confused electronics on the PCB? >> >> Something else? >> >> Where would one begin diagnosing this particular problem? >> >> I did try the wrist twist torquing thing. >> >> And lightly whacking side of housing with palm of hand during track scan >> noise.  Declining to do that hard, tho. >> >> Powered off and back on (to retry) probably near a hundred times now. >> >> Heated it gently in front of our forced-air furnace duct until >> comfortably >> warm to touch - probably near 105 F. >> >> All these produced absolutely zero behaviour change. >> >> thx >> jake --===============5567714166233603434==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue Feb 27 16:29:05 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 10:20:49 -0600 Message-ID: <6802495.520678.1709050849914@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <1709049503322.null> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3113446346928456007==" --===============3113446346928456007== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's not a cassette, but the PB-440 (Pitney-Bowes), renamed Raytheon 440 and = its upgrade the raytheon 520 had a large reel paper tape with a bidirectional= read and an "operating system" Load the os, say we want to run fortran, spi= n down to fortran, read the program in on 80 column cards (probably 2 pass, I= don'trecall), automatically reload the monitor when done, read and execute t= he program from cards. Frequently used programs could be on the OS paper tap= e reel. btw, that computer was user level microcode. multiple "machine" definitions,= with typical 24 bit word, one instruction set optimized for fortran executio= n, one for fortran compilation, etc (don't remember exactly, as I only progra= mmed in the microcode of mostly 2 micro instructions per word). 
--Carey
> On 02/27/2024 8:58 AM CST erik--- via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > =20 > Hi Jon! >=20 > > think the Bendix G-15 had cassettes for the 5-level tape=20 > > they used. > --===============3113446346928456007==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Feb 27 17:07:57 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 11:07:50 -0600 Message-ID: <14ad0530-b7df-eebf-a80e-361e4dd33546@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <1709049503322.null> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8529417424218246712==" --===============8529417424218246712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/27/24 08:58, erik--- via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jon! > >> think the Bendix G-15 had cassettes for the 5-level tape >> they used. > Aha, interesting! Did a short search, but have not been able to > find a picture of a casette. Just a pile of paper tape instead ;-) > > https://images.app.goo.gl/HYqkpYHJUxZeGfiA8 Yes, the cassette is visible right below where the tape is coming out of the punch,  Most other photos of the G-15 show a shiny aluminum rectangle near the top front of the computer.  That is the cassette.  There is a horizontal lever across the cassette that holds it in place. Jon --===============8529417424218246712==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 27 18:20:37 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 11:10:34 -0700 Message-ID: <97cc8c60-434e-4686-b8bb-3514f040d41e@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <6802495.520678.1709050849914@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2252472226153099778==" --===============2252472226153099778== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-02-27 9:20 a.m., CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > It's not a cassette, but the PB-440 (Pitney-Bowes), renamed Raytheon 440 an= d its upgrade the raytheon 520 had a large reel paper tape with a bidirection= al read and an "operating system" Load the os, say we want to run fortran, s= pin down to fortran, read the program in on 80 column cards (probably 2 pass,= I don'trecall), automatically reload the monitor when done, read and execute= the program from cards. Frequently used programs could be on the OS paper t= ape reel. >=20 > btw, that computer was user level microcode. multiple "machine" definition= s, with typical 24 bit word, one instruction set optimized for fortran execut= ion, one for fortran compilation, etc (don't remember exactly, as I only prog= rammed in the microcode of mostly 2 micro instructions per word). >=20 > 
--Carey
Where is some document ion on that machine? I finally got around to building the TTL home-brew computer I wanted=20 from the 1970's and now I need all the goodies like paper tape and i/o=20 that is Algol ready. :) Ben. OK I cheated using Cmos 2901's and 22v10's, but that is what I had to make the PCB layouts easy.I don't think 1 74H04 counts for making it=20 a TTL computer. :) PS: With low cost Chinese PCB's and vintage parts, why are people not building real hardware replica's of interesting machines. --===============2252472226153099778==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Tue Feb 27 18:29:53 2024 From: paul.kimpel@digm.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 18:29:49 +0000 Message-ID: <170905858909.4006402.1729242765553861830@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <1709049503322.null> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7231411943650451334==" --===============7231411943650451334== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable erik=EF=BC=A0baigar.de wrote: >=20 > > think the Bendix G-15 had cassettes for the 5-level > > tape=20 > > they used.=20 > Aha, interesting! Did a short search, but have not been able to > find a picture of a casette. Just a pile of paper tape instead ;-) >=20 > https://images.app.goo.gl/HYqkpYHJUxZeGfiA8 Bitsavers has a collection of G-15 manuals. For a picture of an open cassette= , see PDF page 27 in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bendix/g-15/60061400_G15D_Parts= _Manual.pdf. Also see PDF page 18 in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bendix/g-15/G15_Operating_Ma= n_Jul59.pdf. David Lovett has been restoring a G-15 for the System Source Computer Museum = in Maryland (US). He regularly publishes videos of his progress, such as this= one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DWNfR4DmoZQU&pp=3DygUWYmVuZGl4IGctMTUgcGFwZX= IgdGFwZQ%3D%3D To see more, try searching youtube.com for "bendix g-15 paper tape". --===============7231411943650451334==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Feb 27 18:56:52 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 10:40:37 -0800 Message-ID: <4148d334-c263-40b1-abbe-93153f723c0e@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <97cc8c60-434e-4686-b8bb-3514f040d41e@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8044877030830132641==" --===============8044877030830132641== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/27/24 10:10, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2024-02-27 9:20 a.m., CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >> It's not a cassette, but the PB-440 (Pitney-Bowes), renamed Raytheon >> 440 and its upgrade the raytheon 520 had a large reel paper tape with >> a bidirectional read and an "operating system"  Load the os, say we >> want to run fortran, spin down to fortran, read the program in on 80 >> column cards (probably 2 pass, I don'trecall), automatically reload >> the monitor when done, read and execute the program from cards.  >> Frequently used programs could be on the OS paper tape reel. >> >> btw, that computer was user level microcode.  multiple "machine" >> definitions, with typical 24 bit word, one instruction set optimized >> for fortran execution, one for fortran compilation, etc (don't >> remember exactly, as I only programmed in the microcode of mostly 2 >> micro instructions per word). Is the "PB" Pitney-Bowes or Packard-Bell? I note that only because that Raytheon bought out Packard-Bell's computer operation and re-dubbed their models. So a Packard-Bell PB 250 became the Raytheon PB 250. As regards the 440, it's on my short list of interesting "hybrid" computers of the 1960s, which was a hot topic then: It was part of the TRICE setup: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/raytheon/trice/TRICE_440_Oct64.pdf --Chuck --===============8044877030830132641==-- From merlyn@geeks.org Tue Feb 27 20:22:36 2024 From: Doug McIntyre To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 14:13:32 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <97cc8c60-434e-4686-b8bb-3514f040d41e@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8336629547116659134==" --===============8336629547116659134== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 27, 2024 at 11:10:34AM -0700, ben via cctalk wrote: > PS: With low cost Chinese PCB's and vintage parts, why are people not > building real hardware replica's of interesting machines. But they are..=20 I can't tell what you'd find interesting since the list is pretty wide. I've got an Apple I replica board that someday I intend to populate and get r= unning.=20 You've got the ReAmiga project producing new boards for using up old parts on= broken boards. https://www.reamiga.info/?page_id=3D36 One thing that I find interesting (although I'd never do it), is a board to e= mulate a 68000 CPU at much higher speeds running barebones emulator on a Raspberry P= i. Aimed at Amiga A1200 again. https://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=3DPistorm32-Lite I've put together my IMSAI 8080 frontpanel kit, with the CPU emulated on an E= SP32. https://thehighnibble.com/imsai8080/ Or they are about to ship out the PiDP-10 blinkenlights kits https://obsolescence.dev/pidp10.html The CPU again emulated on a RaPi, but all new boards and plastic for the cons= ole kit=20 I'm not sure if anybody has ever thought about making flipchip boards themsel= ves though. Although they might have been.. https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/a-general-purpose-flip-chip-adapter= -board-worth-doing.1228572/ --===============8336629547116659134==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue Feb 27 21:29:12 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PB-440 [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 15:28:43 -0600 Message-ID: <1228968905.530949.1709069323770@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <4148d334-c263-40b1-abbe-93153f723c0e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1873809374717358581==" --===============1873809374717358581== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable you are correct. Packard Bell. apologies. And the picture on page 8 is (or = is close to) the paper tape reader I remember. So many fun things to program (I programme= d in octal only). conditional instructions were "skip if", so if the first microinstruction in = the word, applied to the=20 second, if the second, applied to the next word, that is, 2 micro instruction= s, the first of which=20 might also be a conditional... two relative jumps in one word allowed a jump to be twice as big. I *think* I should have the microcode programming book for this on paper. al= l boxed up when I got married and never unboxed after the divorce. brown and black cover. 
--Carey
> On 02/27/2024 12:40 PM CST Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > On 2/27/24 10:10, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Is the "PB" Pitney-Bowes or Packard-Bell? I note that only because that > Raytheon bought out Packard-Bell's computer operation and re-dubbed > their models. So a Packard-Bell PB 250 became the Raytheon PB 250. >=20 > As regards the 440, it's on my short list of interesting "hybrid" > computers of the 1960s, which was a hot topic then: It was part of the > TRICE setup: >=20 > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/raytheon/trice/TRICE_440_Oct64.pdf >=20 > --Chuck > > On 2024-02-27 9:20 a.m., CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > >> It's not a cassette, but the PB-440 (Pitney-Bowes), renamed Raytheon > >> 440 and its upgrade the raytheon 520 had a large reel paper tape with > >> a bidirectional read and an "operating system"=C2=A0 Load the os, say we > >> want to run fortran, spin down to fortran, read the program in on 80 > >> column cards (probably 2 pass, I don'trecall), automatically reload > >> the monitor when done, read and execute the program from cards.=C2=A0 > >> Frequently used programs could be on the OS paper tape reel. > >> > >> btw, that computer was user level microcode.=C2=A0 multiple "machine" > >> definitions, with typical 24 bit word, one instruction set optimized > >> for fortran execution, one for fortran compilation, etc (don't > >> remember exactly, as I only programmed in the microcode of mostly 2 > >> micro instructions per word). --===============1873809374717358581==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 27 21:31:00 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 14:30:41 -0700 Message-ID: <5ef02d9a-1bc4-4054-bfaf-66b0b66a1096@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1711541315290521725==" --===============1711541315290521725== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-02-27 1:13 p.m., Doug McIntyre via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2024 at 11:10:34AM -0700, ben via cctalk wrote: >> PS: With low cost Chinese PCB's and vintage parts, why are people not >> building real hardware replica's of interesting machines. >=20 > But they are.. > I can't tell what you'd find interesting since the list is pretty wide. >=20 Anything not APPLE or IBM or DEC or a PI-emulation for a home brew computer. > I've got an Apple I replica board that someday I intend to populate and get= running. >=20 1) Get a good power supply 2) hack in a 6809. 3) get a good power supply. > You've got the ReAmiga project producing new boards for using up old parts = on broken boards. > https://www.reamiga.info/?page_id=3D36 >=20 > One thing that I find interesting (although I'd never do it), is a board to= emulate > a 68000 CPU at much higher speeds running barebones emulator on a Raspberry= Pi. > Aimed at Amiga A1200 again. > https://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=3DPistorm32-Lite >=20 > I've put together my IMSAI 8080 frontpanel kit, with the CPU emulated on an= ESP32. > https://thehighnibble.com/imsai8080/ I had z80/s100 kit once, but the power supply failed taking every thing out. > Or they are about to ship out the PiDP-10 blinkenlights kits > https://obsolescence.dev/pidp10.html > The CPU again emulated on a RaPi, but all new boards and plastic for the co= nsole kit I think the PI is too cheap of computer build wise for emulation of any system. It might blink your lights, but never run 20 users timesharing. > I'm not sure if anybody has ever thought about making flipchip boards=20 themselves though. > Although they might have been.. >=20 https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/a-general-purpose-flip-chip-adapter= -board-worth-doing.1228572/ Small PCB's run at $5 each and PAL 22v10 in each could replace a lot=20 simple cards. I would love to see a PDP-8 with 1/2 size flip chips using today's=20 smaller logic. A good home brew computer is what I am looking for. In hindsight I want 18 bit addressing (bytes optional) and single word memory ref's. Since 2901 alu's are 4 bits wide, 20,24,28 bits are my only option for a COMPUTER not for digital controller faking it. Still working on the pro-type stage here. For test pcb's I have, good source of Chinese toggle switches with a PCB foot print. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/143887059040 Hex displays are here. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/281809099152 --===============1711541315290521725==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Feb 27 21:51:57 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PB-440 [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 13:45:27 -0800 Message-ID: <9b2414b2-01ad-42f0-9af0-5cf1237a58d5@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1228968905.530949.1709069323770@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7212325727806886744==" --===============7212325727806886744== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/27/24 13:28, CAREY SCHUG wrote: > you are correct. Packard Bell. apologies. And the picture on page 8 is (o= r is close to) > the paper tape reader I remember. So many fun things to program (I program= med in octal only). I like the description on that same page referring to "octal arabic character" as opposed to, say, Babylonian character. :) --Chuck --===============7212325727806886744==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue Feb 27 21:57:36 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] recreating old computers [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 15:49:00 -0600 Message-ID: <1307686544.531665.1709070540596@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4285334640745801349==" --===============4285334640745801349== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Religion warning: I was a mainframer. Since at any practical budget, they c= an only be emulated, for=20 small computers, I would like pure hardware as much as possible, and what did= or could have existed (no fpga). What I wish somebody would create is an S-100 card (probably with a raspberry= pie daughter running simulation for future upgradeability) that, initially emulates a complete Byt= e-8 or Imsai computer including memory and disk images on sdc cards, 24x40 display on an HDMI displ= ay and USB keyboard. serial and parallel ports emulated. software upgrades could be: -- a full web page with clickable front panels and ascii terminals. -- support other CPU cards, e.g. 8088, 68000, 6502, etc but the big thing: bidirectional ports on all S-100 data lines. go into supervisory mode and de= fine=20 --this memory range go to the s-100 bus so you can get that old 8k memory car= d working. --this io range go to s-100 bus to get the old printer interface, etc going --eventually down to just the CPU, pull this new card, put in old CPU and you= have an original. --possibly reverse also, so would be super board emulating memory, disk, etc = for an original CPU card. AND maybe headers to connect to ribbon cables to do the same functions to rec= over other busses: apple, TRS-80, OSI, unibus, isa, eisa, s-bus 
--Carey
> On 02/27/2024 2:13 PM CST Doug McIntyre via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > On Tue, Feb 27, 2024 at 11:10:34AM -0700, ben via cctalk wrote: > > PS: With low cost Chinese PCB's and vintage parts, why are people not > > building real hardware replica's of interesting machines. >=20 > But they are..=20 > I can't tell what you'd find interesting since the list is pretty wide. >=20 > I've got an Apple I replica board that someday I intend to populate and get= running.=20 >=20 > You've got the ReAmiga project producing new boards for using up old parts = on broken boards. > https://www.reamiga.info/?page_id=3D36 >=20 > One thing that I find interesting (although I'd never do it), is a board to= emulate > a 68000 CPU at much higher speeds running barebones emulator on a Raspberry= Pi. > Aimed at Amiga A1200 again. > https://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=3DPistorm32-Lite >=20 > I've put together my IMSAI 8080 frontpanel kit, with the CPU emulated on an= ESP32. > https://thehighnibble.com/imsai8080/ >=20 > Or they are about to ship out the PiDP-10 blinkenlights kits > https://obsolescence.dev/pidp10.html > The CPU again emulated on a RaPi, but all new boards and plastic for the co= nsole kit=20 > I'm not sure if anybody has ever thought about making flipchip boards thems= elves though. > Although they might have been.. > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/a-general-purpose-flip-chip-adapt= er-board-worth-doing.1228572/ --===============4285334640745801349==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Feb 27 22:09:28 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: recreating old computers [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 17:09:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1307686544.531665.1709070540596@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5502511284018357720==" --===============5502511284018357720== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Feb 27, 2024, at 4:49 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Religion warning: I was a mainframer. Since at any practical budget, they= can only be emulated,=20 Depends on your definition of emulated. Is an FPGA version merely an "emulat= ion"? You might say yes if it's a functional model. Arguably no, if it's a = gate level model. Suppose you had schematics of, say, a KA-10. You could turn those gates into= VHDL or Verilog, and that should deliver an exact replica of the original ma= chine, bug for bug compatible. That assumes the timing quirks are manageable= , which for most machines should be true. (It isn't for a CDC 6600.) paul --===============5502511284018357720==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue Feb 27 22:22:23 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Resurrecting old microcomputers Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:22:16 -0600 Message-ID: <1971762359.532460.1709072536094@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6793892721147558517==" --===============6793892721147558517== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, probably the hardest part is the floppy disk, as the mechanics corrode ov= er time more than chips. People have built electronics to connect to a floppy cable and emulate a drive electronically. Difficult to catch the timing on flux changes and digitize. More than I want to spend at this time. Couldn't somebody more clever than me develop something that would plug into a Western Digital floppy disk controller socket, catch the commands to the devi= ce directly? Probably need to be an FPGA, to actively monitor and catch the bus signals. Yes, and apple would have to have it's own, probably a card to plug into the = bus. Although I think I have an apple ][ 3rd party card what uses a WD controller = and standards shugart style drives. probably the disks are incompatible with tho= se from the apple ][ card, which is why I then bought a 3rd party apple style ca= rd=20 and disk (but did not do enough with any of them to remember details). IIRC = there was one other early PC that did not use WD floppy controller chips. connect this wd emulator via USB to a modern tablet/desktop/smartphone where = storage=20 and heavy lifting would be done. With minimal changes to the original operating system, define floppy with at = least 255 tracks of (?) at least 255 records of (?) 4096 bytes, effectively making = a hard disk, and of course as fast as it can transfer data. can't do that wi= th something grabbing signals off the floppy cable. the emulation would initially be storing track images. Later it could unders= tand the floppy formats and actually store the data in PC files...shareable betwee= n Apple ][, Atari, TRS-80 (all flavors), etc, etc, and the modern PC.=20 the WD emulator could emulate the original floppy controller also, so a compu= ter could have both the original mechanical floppy and modern high volume storage. That= would require a clip to wherever the floppy select lines were stored. --===============6793892721147558517==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Tue Feb 27 22:31:52 2024 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 22:31:12 +0000 Message-ID: <64ee26a852ec4fe3bac28e4c1794effe@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <5ef02d9a-1bc4-4054-bfaf-66b0b66a1096@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6098235589579983639==" --===============6098235589579983639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> I would love to see a PDP-8 with 1/2 size flip chips using today's smalle= r logic. Can you get the logic ? Especially the bus / backplane driving parts. https://retrocmp.com/projects/qbone/326-qbone-unibone-alternative-bus-drivers Q-bus transceivers (DS8641 being a classic) are unobtainium in commercial qty= s, the substitutes listed seem little more available Omnibus parts ... https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/pic16f13145 An 8..28 pin microcontroller with 32 (4-1) LUTs on 1.8 - 5 V supply, might co= ntrol output transistors for roll your own bus transceivers Small, cheap and perhaps sufficiently fast / flexible; also, perhaps competit= ion for the 22V10 ? Martin --===============6098235589579983639==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Tue Feb 27 22:34:16 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:34:03 -0600 Message-ID: <910438105.262658.1709073243393@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <6968f3bd-e06f-fe93-357f-c001ddff79eb@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2741588248637119352==" --===============2741588248637119352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 02/27/2024 9:05 AM CST Jon Elson via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > I think the Bendix G-15 had cassettes for the 5-level tape=20 > they used. I can confirm this from personal experience. mcl --===============2741588248637119352==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Feb 27 22:42:36 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 22:42:30 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <64ee26a852ec4fe3bac28e4c1794effe@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5998618970874028078==" --===============5998618970874028078== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Take a look at the Applesauce. It hooks up to a lot of different floppy drives and records and decodes the f= lux.=20 Version2 of the hardware is being sourced and should be available in a few mo= nths.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 27, 2024, at 14:32, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>> I would love to see a PDP-8 with 1/2 size flip chips using today's smalle= r logic. >=20 > Can you get the logic ? Especially the bus / backplane driving parts. >=20 > https://retrocmp.com/projects/qbone/326-qbone-unibone-alternative-bus-drive= rs > Q-bus transceivers (DS8641 being a classic) are unobtainium in commercial q= tys, the substitutes listed seem little more available > Omnibus parts ... >=20 > https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/pic16f13145 > An 8..28 pin microcontroller with 32 (4-1) LUTs on 1.8 - 5 V supply, might = control output transistors for roll your own bus transceivers > Small, cheap and perhaps sufficiently fast / flexible; also, perhaps compet= ition for the 22V10 ? >=20 > Martin >=20 >=20 --===============5998618970874028078==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Feb 27 22:52:53 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: recreating old computers [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 14:52:42 -0800 Message-ID: <0c160c79-4c5f-44b6-a85e-6de8da222b8c@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7720399022243580964==" --===============7720399022243580964== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/27/24 14:09, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Suppose you had schematics of, say, a KA-10. You could turn those gates in= to VHDL or Verilog, and that should deliver an exact replica of the original = machine, bug for bug compatible. That assumes the timing quirks are manageab= le, which for most machines should be true. (It isn't for a CDC 6600.) A section manager from years ago mentioned to me that, as a fresh EE out of school, his first job at CDC was measuring the loops of (taper pin) wire on the 6600 to which Seymour had attached tags that said "tune". --Chuck --===============7720399022243580964==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Tue Feb 27 22:54:11 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:54:00 -0600 Message-ID: <1291611251.263548.1709074440725@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <170905858909.4006402.1729242765553861830@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8960718559452353693==" --===============8960718559452353693== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 02/27/2024 12:29 PM CST paul.kimpel--- via cctalk wrote: > Bitsavers has a collection of G-15 manuals. Rob Kolstad (formerly of BSDI) and I sat down last August to categorize his online scans. AFAICT he has the largest collection. (Of course I forgot to bring my copy of the technical manual with all the waveforms penciled in.) He and I need to get back to that project. It had been a long time (high school days!) since I looked at that doc. To an experienced engineer, it's now clear how much of a work of genius it was (so few gates!) No wonder I had trouble understanding it all as a teenager. > David Lovett has been restoring a G-15 for the System Source Computer Museu= m in Maryland (US). Hmm. I don't remember if Rob told me about that project. He knows of two in Texas. Some of my old notes are at http://obscurecomputers.org/g15/index.html . mcl --===============8960718559452353693==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue Feb 27 22:58:25 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: applesauce vs western digital emulator Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:50:10 -0600 Message-ID: <2097454434.533135.1709074210636@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218188047B98838D8927DA5FE4592=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5237939909646458420==" --===============5237939909646458420== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable but still only floppy speeds. maybe they have software mods for larger capac= ity, but still only floppy speeds. emulate the western digital chip and go as fast as= the original machine can handle it. there were non-apple disk emulators (including one designed for automatic loo= m weavers or something). I think still would be far more expensive than circuitry to decode floppy dri= ve data lines. 
--Carey
> On 02/27/2024 4:42 PM CST Wayne S via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > =20 > Take a look at the Applesauce. > It hooks up to a lot of different floppy drives and records and decodes the= flux.=20 > Version2 of the hardware is being sourced and should be available in a few = months.=20 > --===============5237939909646458420==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Feb 27 23:02:16 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 15:02:04 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218188047B98838D8927DA5FE4592=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0179543820053568444==" --===============0179543820053568444== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/27/24 14:42, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Take a look at the Applesauce. > It hooks up to a lot of different floppy drives and records and decodes the= flux.=20 > Version2 of the hardware is being sourced and should be available in a few = months.=20 >=20 Good grief, there are more of these things floating around than one can shake a stick at. The Greasweazel is perhaps the cheapest, using a $3 ($1.30 or so from Aliexpress) STM32F103 "Blue Pill" board. It's almost trivial doing this if you don't need the "eye candy". Basically you run a timer in capture mode, with capture triggered by an edge on the drive's "read data" line. Modern MCUs don't even break a sweat doing this. It's nice seeing the proliferation after many years of harping on the subject... --Chuck --===============0179543820053568444==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Feb 27 23:12:19 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 23:12:13 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9111707250418222622==" --===============9111707250418222622== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck, not to disagree much, because you are an expert, but there=E2=80=99s m= ore to decoding floppies than just reading them. Some floppies have tracks th= at are recorded at different speeds. Some have tracks that use different modu= lation gcr on some and mfm on others. A lot of floppies have different skew. = The applesauce tries to handle these problems and give you a readable file. I= t=E2=80=99s mostly in the software. I tried to send the discord link but don=E2=80=99t know if it got thru so her= e it is again https://discord.gg/njetE8zU Wayne Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:02, Chuck Guzis via cctalk w= rote: =EF=BB=BFOn 2/27/24 14:42, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: Take a look at the Applesauce. It hooks up to a lot of different floppy drives and records and decodes the f= lux. Version2 of the hardware is being sourced and should be available in a few mo= nths. Good grief, there are more of these things floating around than one can shake a stick at. The Greasweazel is perhaps the cheapest, using a $3 ($1.30 or so from Aliexpress) STM32F103 "Blue Pill" board. It's almost trivial doing this if you don't need the "eye candy". Basically you run a timer in capture mode, with capture triggered by an edge on the drive's "read data" line. Modern MCUs don't even break a sweat doing this. It's nice seeing the proliferation after many years of harping on the subject... --Chuck --===============9111707250418222622==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Feb 27 23:18:21 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 23:18:14 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21819AAB5E78036A4FE0EA77E4592=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1638141380321294300==" --===============1638141380321294300== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The =E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D channel has the most info on the applesause. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:12, Wayne S wrote: =EF=BB=BF Chuck, not to disagree much, because you are an expert, but there= =E2=80=99s more to decoding floppies than just reading them. Some floppies ha= ve tracks that are recorded at different speeds. Some have tracks that use di= fferent modulation gcr on some and mfm on others. A lot of floppies have diff= erent skew. The applesauce tries to handle these problems and give you a read= able file. It=E2=80=99s mostly in the software. I tried to send the discord link but don=E2=80=99t know if it got thru so her= e it is again https://discord.gg/njetE8zU Wayne Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:02, Chuck Guzis via cctalk w= rote: =EF=BB=BFOn 2/27/24 14:42, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: Take a look at the Applesauce. It hooks up to a lot of different floppy drives and records and decodes the f= lux. Version2 of the hardware is being sourced and should be available in a few mo= nths. Good grief, there are more of these things floating around than one can shake a stick at. The Greasweazel is perhaps the cheapest, using a $3 ($1.30 or so from Aliexpress) STM32F103 "Blue Pill" board. It's almost trivial doing this if you don't need the "eye candy". Basically you run a timer in capture mode, with capture triggered by an edge on the drive's "read data" line. Modern MCUs don't even break a sweat doing this. It's nice seeing the proliferation after many years of harping on the subject... --Chuck --===============1638141380321294300==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Tue Feb 27 23:23:46 2024 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] "HB A8" ISA SCSI controller BIOS image? Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 18:23:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3352386157454287732==" --===============3352386157454287732== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have some 8-bit ISA 53c90a based SCSI controllers labeled "SCSI HB A8". Mine are made by "Advanced Information Concepts", but apparently they were also made by "Control Concepts". Unfortunately, mine don't have the BIOS chips installed. I have a picture of the card with a chip installed labeled "Ver-3.02 CCI 0991", so I know an 8k or 16k boot prom existed. Does anyone have such a card that they'd be willing to dump a prom image from (or let me borrow it to dump). KJ --===============3352386157454287732==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Feb 27 23:26:20 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: applesauce vs western digital emulator Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 15:26:09 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2097454434.533135.1709074210636@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0018007866884812253==" --===============0018007866884812253== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/27/24 14:50, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > but still only floppy speeds. maybe they have software mods for larger cap= acity, but > still only floppy speeds. emulate the western digital chip and go as fast = as the > original machine can handle it. There are inexpensive floppy emulators available with custom software. Search for "Gotek". You can even modify the basic cheap unit to have a small OLED screen and a rotary encoder for switching among the hundreds of images that you've recorded using your Greaseweazle. The Gotek is essentially a cheap MCU-with some level-shifting logic and a USB port for a pen drive. There is also an emulator for an MFM hard drive. Silicon just keeps marching on... --Chuck --===============0018007866884812253==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Tue Feb 27 23:33:34 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] emulating floppies [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 17:33:05 -0600 Message-ID: <30600012.534143.1709076785360@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21813D46FFC6D3268AE26213E4592=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3583572895376906477==" --===============3583572895376906477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I knew most of this, which is why emulating the floppy controller should be e= asier. applesauce is platform specific (ok, ANY floppy emulation will be platform sp= ecific for apple) I thought the applesauce page said it was not yet available for standard shug= art style as in trs-80, s-100... greaseweasel is platform specific. the color coco is not yet available in th= e USA, needing shipping from Europe, which in my experience is not cheap. no= t even promised for trs80 1/3/4 or s-100. and are the parts cheap? dunno. did not know about gcr/mfm on same floppy...if you respond, please mention wh= o does that. gaak, I don't even recognize "gcr" at this point. I remember mfm and something else. mfm was s= ingle density, right? was gcr=20 double density? does not seem familiar, but certainly there was a double den= sity encoding scheme that the device attached to the floppy cable would have to recognize. I had forgotten that atari? commodore? changed speed, though I remember I kn= ew that before.=20 
--Carey
> On 02/27/2024 5:18 PM CST Wayne S via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > =20 > The =E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D channel has the most info on the applesause. >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:12, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF Chuck, not to disagree much, because you are an expert, but there= =E2=80=99s more to decoding floppies than just reading them. Some floppies ha= ve tracks that are recorded at different speeds. Some have tracks that use di= fferent modulation gcr on some and mfm on others. A lot of floppies have diff= erent skew. The applesauce tries to handle these problems and give you a read= able file. It=E2=80=99s mostly in the software. >=20 > I tried to send the discord link but don=E2=80=99t know if it got thru so h= ere it is again >=20 > https://discord.gg/njetE8zU >=20 > Wayne >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:02, Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2/27/24 14:42, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Take a look at the Applesauce. > It hooks up to a lot of different floppy drives and records and decodes the= flux. > Version2 of the hardware is being sourced and should be available in a few = months. >=20 > Good grief, there are more of these things floating around than one can > shake a stick at. The Greasweazel is perhaps the cheapest, using a $3 > ($1.30 or so from Aliexpress) STM32F103 "Blue Pill" board. >=20 > It's almost trivial doing this if you don't need the "eye candy". > Basically you run a timer in capture mode, with capture triggered by an > edge on the drive's "read data" line. >=20 > Modern MCUs don't even break a sweat doing this. >=20 > It's nice seeing the proliferation after many years of harping on the > subject... >=20 > --Chuck --===============3583572895376906477==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Feb 27 23:43:46 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: emulating floppies [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 23:43:39 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <30600012.534143.1709076785360@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1321522429563083879==" --===============1321522429563083879== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know you do this for a living and are good at it. Most of us don=E2=80=99t = do it as a living but have piles of floppies that we want to recover cheaply = using an existing method. Grease, cat and other wezels, are fine but you ha= ve to do more work to get usable stuff, unless your floppies are all c64 =F0= =9F=98=80 The applesauce just seems further along than the others.=20 Just my opinion. Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:33, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI knew most of this, which is why emulating the floppy controller = should be easier. >=20 > applesauce is platform specific (ok, ANY floppy emulation will be platform = specific for apple) >=20 > I thought the applesauce page said it was not yet available for standard sh= ugart style as in trs-80, s-100... >=20 > greaseweasel is platform specific. the color coco is not yet available in = the USA, needing shipping from Europe, which in my experience is not cheap. = not even promised for trs80 1/3/4 or s-100. and are the parts cheap? dunno. >=20 > did not know about gcr/mfm on same floppy...if you respond, please mention = who does that. gaak, I don't even > recognize "gcr" at this point. I remember mfm and something else. mfm was= single density, right? was gcr=20 > double density? does not seem familiar, but certainly there was a double d= ensity encoding scheme that the > device attached to the floppy cable would have to recognize. >=20 > I had forgotten that atari? commodore? changed speed, though I remember I = knew that before.=20 >=20 > 
--Carey
>=20 >> On 02/27/2024 5:18 PM CST Wayne S via cctalk wro= te: >>=20 >>=20 >> The =E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D channel has the most info on the applesause. >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >> On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:12, Wayne S wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF Chuck, not to disagree much, because you are an expert, but ther= e=E2=80=99s more to decoding floppies than just reading them. Some floppies h= ave tracks that are recorded at different speeds. Some have tracks that use d= ifferent modulation gcr on some and mfm on others. A lot of floppies have dif= ferent skew. The applesauce tries to handle these problems and give you a rea= dable file. It=E2=80=99s mostly in the software. >>=20 >> I tried to send the discord link but don=E2=80=99t know if it got thru so = here it is again >>=20 >> https://discord.gg/njetE8zU >>=20 >> Wayne >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >> On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:02, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFOn 2/27/24 14:42, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Take a look at the Applesauce. >> It hooks up to a lot of different floppy drives and records and decodes th= e flux. >> Version2 of the hardware is being sourced and should be available in a few= months. >>=20 >> Good grief, there are more of these things floating around than one can >> shake a stick at. The Greasweazel is perhaps the cheapest, using a $3 >> ($1.30 or so from Aliexpress) STM32F103 "Blue Pill" board. >>=20 >> It's almost trivial doing this if you don't need the "eye candy". >> Basically you run a timer in capture mode, with capture triggered by an >> edge on the drive's "read data" line. >>=20 >> Modern MCUs don't even break a sweat doing this. >>=20 >> It's nice seeing the proliferation after many years of harping on the >> subject... >>=20 >> --Chuck --===============1321522429563083879==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Feb 27 23:48:52 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: emulating floppies [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 23:48:45 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218107C244E93EB95F16482EE4592=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1525792655193244499==" --===============1525792655193244499== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vector uses gcr. Apparently.=20 I=E2=80=99m not well versed in any of this, just relaying stuff i read from t= he Applesauce discord support channel. People ask questions like all of yours= there all the time.=20 Join it and scroll back on that channel. Lotsa interesting stuff. Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:43, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI know you do this for a living and are good at it. Most of us don= =E2=80=99t do it as a living but have piles of floppies that we want to recov= er cheaply using an existing method. Grease, cat and other wezels, are fine= but you have to do more work to get usable stuff, unless your floppies are a= ll c64 =F0=9F=98=80 The applesauce just seems further along than the others. = > Just my opinion. >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:33, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFI knew most of this, which is why emulating the floppy controller= should be easier. >>=20 >> applesauce is platform specific (ok, ANY floppy emulation will be platform= specific for apple) >>=20 >> I thought the applesauce page said it was not yet available for standard s= hugart style as in trs-80, s-100... >>=20 >> greaseweasel is platform specific. the color coco is not yet available in= the USA, needing shipping from Europe, which in my experience is not cheap. = not even promised for trs80 1/3/4 or s-100. and are the parts cheap? dunno. >>=20 >> did not know about gcr/mfm on same floppy...if you respond, please mention= who does that. gaak, I don't even >> recognize "gcr" at this point. I remember mfm and something else. mfm wa= s single density, right? was gcr=20 >> double density? does not seem familiar, but certainly there was a double = density encoding scheme that the >> device attached to the floppy cable would have to recognize. >>=20 >> I had forgotten that atari? commodore? changed speed, though I remember I= knew that before.=20 >>=20 >> 
--Carey
>>=20 >>>> On 02/27/2024 5:18 PM CST Wayne S via cctalk w= rote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The =E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D channel has the most info on the applesause. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>>> On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:12, Wayne S wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF Chuck, not to disagree much, because you are an expert, but the= re=E2=80=99s more to decoding floppies than just reading them. Some floppies = have tracks that are recorded at different speeds. Some have tracks that use = different modulation gcr on some and mfm on others. A lot of floppies have di= fferent skew. The applesauce tries to handle these problems and give you a re= adable file. It=E2=80=99s mostly in the software. >>>=20 >>> I tried to send the discord link but don=E2=80=99t know if it got thru so= here it is again >>>=20 >>> https://discord.gg/njetE8zU >>>=20 >>> Wayne >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>>> On Feb 27, 2024, at 15:02, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFOn 2/27/24 14:42, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>> Take a look at the Applesauce. >>> It hooks up to a lot of different floppy drives and records and decodes t= he flux. >>> Version2 of the hardware is being sourced and should be available in a fe= w months. >>>=20 >>> Good grief, there are more of these things floating around than one can >>> shake a stick at. The Greasweazel is perhaps the cheapest, using a $3 >>> ($1.30 or so from Aliexpress) STM32F103 "Blue Pill" board. >>>=20 >>> It's almost trivial doing this if you don't need the "eye candy". >>> Basically you run a timer in capture mode, with capture triggered by an >>> edge on the drive's "read data" line. >>>=20 >>> Modern MCUs don't even break a sweat doing this. >>>=20 >>> It's nice seeing the proliferation after many years of harping on the >>> subject... >>>=20 >>> --Chuck --===============1525792655193244499==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Feb 28 00:01:30 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: emulating floppies [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:01:19 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218107C244E93EB95F16482EE4592=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4537637459656963837==" --===============4537637459656963837== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/27/24 15:43, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > I know you do this for a living and are good at it. Most of us don=E2=80=99= t do it as a living but have piles of floppies that we want to recover cheapl= y using an existing method. Grease, cat and other wezels, are fine but you = have to do more work to get usable stuff, unless your floppies are all c64 = =F0=9F=98=80 The applesauce just seems further along than the others.=20 > Just my opinion. To be fair, the OP was talking about replacing the WD disk controller. As far as I know, WD 17xx and 27xx controllers can do FM and MFM. Heck, they can't even do M2FM. A small exception. Back in the 1970s, we did do GCR using the WD1781, which is basically a 1771 without the modulation appendages. And even then, it took a Multibus-sized board to implement the scheme. --Chuck --===============4537637459656963837==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Feb 28 00:12:23 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: emulating floppies [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:12:18 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <30600012.534143.1709076785360@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6142727948711832889==" --===============6142727948711832889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 27 Feb 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > did not know about gcr/mfm on same floppy...if you respond, please mention = who does that. gaak, I don't even > recognize "gcr" at this point. I remember mfm and something else. mfm was= single density, right? was gcr > double density? does not seem familiar, but certainly there was a double d= ensity encoding scheme that the > device attached to the floppy cable would have to recognize. Grossly oversimplified: FM is Frequency Modulation, often called "single density". There are clock pulses, and bit or no bit between the pulses, therefore,=20 strings of off bits look like one frewuency, and strings of on bits look=20 like another (double) frequency. MFM is Modified Frequency modulation. when it came out, it was almost=20 double the capacity of FM, so the marketing people called it "double=20 density". It wasn't until after that naming that FM began to be called=20 "single density" (In a very similar way, if you look at old newspapers,=20 "World War 1" wasn't called that until the existence or spectre of "World=20 War 2") It was obvious that clock pulses weren't really needed between on bits.=20 By leaving those ones out, the average frequency/signal density was much=20 lower, making it possible to increase (typically double) the data transfer=20 rate. and thus almost twice the capacity per track. GCR is Group Coded Record. Some patterns of bits are more "spread out"=20 than others. If you can find those, you could break up your 8 bit data=20 into 2 "nybbles" of 4 bits each, using only the nybbles that were spread=20 out enough to increase the data transfer rate, and squeeze more of those=20 pairs into the space that the 8 bit bytes had taken. If you can find 32=20 "loose" patterns, then you could record 5 bytes into 8 of those patterns. A little extra firmware to do the conversion, but nothing horrendous. Thus GCR typically would be about one and a half as much data per track=20 as FM, GCR was used on Apple2, 400K/800K Mac, Commodore, Sirius/Vector, etc. 1.4M Mac is ordinary MFM, and can be done with WD style disk controllers. Commodore Amiga was MFM, BUT, did not have the IBM/WD track and sector=20 structures; losing those, and reading a track at a time, and decoding that=20 into sectors in software permitted a little more capacity per track/disk. In addition, on some hard drives, RLL (Run Length limited) is similar to=20 GCR. Changing the motor speed or the data transfer rate for different tracks,=20 makes it easier to use different numbers of sectors, to put less data on=20 the small inner tracks, and more on the longer outer tracks. In order to=20 get closer to a standard linear velocity on the track, instead of a=20 standard angular velocity. There are a few machines, such as Ensoniq, that would put multiple sizes=20 of sectors on a track! You can fit 5 1024 byte sectors on a track, but=20 not enough left for a sixth; however there was enough space for an=20 additional 512 byte sector. There were more recording formats, such as MMFM, having FM sector=20 headers, with MFM sector content, etc. The NEC 765 and its ilk are similar to WD 179x in capability, but with=20 important differences, including, WD has a "track read" command, NEC does=20 not but has a "multiple sector resd", NEC is "flash blinded" by the index=20 pulse, and needs a little more time after index before reading, some NEC=20 controllers can't handle 128 byte MFM sector, many are implemented=20 without support for FM on the FDC board, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6142727948711832889==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Feb 28 00:16:01 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: emulating floppies [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:15:55 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3035365859599864422==" --===============3035365859599864422== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CORRECTION: > GCR was used on Apple2, 400K/800K Mac, Commodore, Sirius/Vector, etc. That should read Victor 9000, NOT Vector [Graphics] Vector Graphics was hard sectored, and not GCR. Northstar is probably the best known of the hard sector formats. --===============3035365859599864422==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Feb 28 00:37:35 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Resurrecting old microcomputers Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 19:29:19 -0500 Message-ID: <2487212F-A494-4D83-B2D0-28769F082AC4@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <1971762359.532460.1709072536094@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3446971734809327478==" --===============3446971734809327478== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Feb 27, 2024, at 5:22 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > OK, probably the hardest part is the floppy disk, as the mechanics corrode = over time > more than chips. >=20 > People have built electronics to connect to a floppy cable and emulate a dr= ive > electronically. Difficult to catch the timing on flux changes and digitize. Not hard for floppies. Harder but still doable for MFM hard drives -- David = Gesswein did a very impressive version that's surprisingly inexpensive, using= a BeagleBone Black or Green as the control engine. I have one, it works per= fectly. paul --===============3446971734809327478==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 28 01:17:06 2024 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: recreating old computers [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 18:16:47 -0700 Message-ID: <9615ce62-7603-475a-acc3-7c0ade86e2c5@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3692369968738042554==" --===============3692369968738042554== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-02-27 3:09 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Feb 27, 2024, at 4:49 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >> >> Religion warning: I was a mainframer. Since at any practical budget, the= y can only be emulated, >=20 Dumpster diving is a 0 dollar budget. People could afford the APPLE II, 8080 S-100 bus, SWTPC 6909. I assume=20 with careful shopping one can rebuild them for about the same price, in=20 small quanities. Power supplies require harder to find parts. Main frame rebuilding is costly, but I suspect the real cost is I/O that can't be duplicated. A hardware emulation using microcode to me is real computer, a windows fly by night emulation is not, as the base platform is too unstable. > Depends on your definition of emulated. Is an FPGA version merely an "emul= ation"? You might say yes if it's a functional model. Arguably no, if it's = a gate level model. >=20 I have bad luck with FPGA's, too many timing issues with routing. I have better luck with a 2901 4 bit alu and some support logic mounted=20 on a small pcb. > Suppose you had schematics of, say, a KA-10. You could turn those gates in= to VHDL or Verilog, and that should deliver an exact replica of the original = machine, bug for bug compatible. That assumes the timing quirks are manageab= le, which for most machines should be true. (It isn't for a CDC 6600.) >=20 > paul The IBM 1130 is also a pretty scary machine inside. The blog is here. https://rescue1130.blogspot.com/ Ben. --===============3692369968738042554==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Feb 28 02:34:55 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: recreating old computers [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 20:34:25 -0600 Message-ID: <173191067.537857.1709087665983@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <9615ce62-7603-475a-acc3-7c0ade86e2c5@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5965576268061455012==" --===============5965576268061455012== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd say the real cost is the second or third system to get spare parts. that is why I want to replace the WD chip. the microprocessor talks to it at bus speed. the os knows it has to wait, though some waits are for the=20 wd chip to say it is done. a SIMPLE mod to the legacy OS can eliminate those waits, thus IO as fast as a real hard disk, maybe as fast as an SSD. I love the 1130, the only I/O instructions given to the printer are input. And the 1620 does addition and multiplication by table lookup. Again, even if somebody offered me a complete IBM model 30 with disk and tape drives, I could not afford the shipping. would probably have to=20 take out the a window to get it inside (big expense), and it might=20 instantly become a basement installation. I'd have to have much more power and A/C installed. And no spare parts. Now, any front panels... Even recreations of front panels would be treasured. In the 1980s the Bradford exchange had a 360/40 front panel mounted in their space with lights artificially flashing. I might even attempt to modify an=20 emulator program to flash the lights appropriately. 
--Carey
> On 02/27/2024 7:16 PM CST ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =20 > On 2024-02-27 3:09 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > >=20 > >> On Feb 27, 2024, at 4:49 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> Religion warning: I was a mainframer. Since at any practical budget, t= hey can only be emulated, > >=20 >=20 > Dumpster diving is a 0 dollar budget. > People could afford the APPLE II, 8080 S-100 bus, SWTPC 6909. I assume=20 > with careful shopping one can rebuild them for about the same price, in=20 > small quanities. > Power supplies require harder to find parts. >=20 > Main frame rebuilding is costly, but I suspect the real cost is I/O > that can't be duplicated. A hardware emulation using microcode to me > is real computer, a windows fly by night emulation is not, as the base > platform is too unstable. >=20 >=20 > > Depends on your definition of emulated. Is an FPGA version merely an "em= ulation"? You might say yes if it's a functional model. Arguably no, if it'= s a gate level model. > >=20 > I have bad luck with FPGA's, too many timing issues with routing. > I have better luck with a 2901 4 bit alu and some support logic mounted=20 > on a small pcb. >=20 > > Suppose you had schematics of, say, a KA-10. You could turn those gates = into VHDL or Verilog, and that should deliver an exact replica of the origina= l machine, bug for bug compatible. That assumes the timing quirks are manage= able, which for most machines should be true. (It isn't for a CDC 6600.) > >=20 > > paul >=20 > The IBM 1130 is also a pretty scary machine inside. > The blog is here. > https://rescue1130.blogspot.com/ >=20 > Ben. --===============5965576268061455012==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Feb 28 02:56:22 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: recreating old computers [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 20:56:13 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <173191067.537857.1709087665983@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9221910918882145885==" --===============9221910918882145885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/27/24 20:34, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > Again, even if somebody offered me a complete IBM model 30 with disk and > tape drives, I could not afford the shipping. would A 360/30 could be a real problem.  It used air bags to push the microcode cards against the bit line boards.  Those air bags looked suspiciously like IV bags from the hospital.  I can't imagine they would still hold air after 50 years. The 360/40 had mylar cards with flex-print to make the microcode word lines, these were punched to break the lines so they went either through, or around the sense transformers to select a 1 or 0 for that bit.  Old mylar tends to crack, and I assume that would break the conductive printing. The 360/50 and /65 had capacitive microcode read only storage which consisted of bit line boards with copper squares and word line boards that had zig-zag word line traces that had either the drive line or balance line widened to cover the bit line square, to select 1 or 0.  These boards were separated by a 1 mil mylar sheet, and squeezed by a spring-loaded metal plate and a foam pressure spreader.  I think these have at least a SLIGHT chance of still working after 5 decades. The power was not real high on these machines, although the peripherals could draw a lot.  The 360/50 and /65 CPUs drew just a couple KW each. Of course, the models /50 and /65 were a LOT bigger than a /30, and much heavier.  There's a reason people used to talk about "big iron". As for the logic, the 360's used SLT, a 1/2" square ceramic hybrid with, generally two transistors, 4 diodes and 4 resistors per package.  The complete schematics for all of them are in the FEMM, and I'll bet one could replace them with a tiny PCB with SOT23 transistors, etc. to replace any bad modules. Jon --===============9221910918882145885==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Feb 28 03:54:01 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: recreating old computers [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 19:53:50 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <173191067.537857.1709087665983@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2507299848831110742==" --===============2507299848831110742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/27/24 18:34, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > And the 1620 does addition and multiplication by table lookup. That was only the CADET; the Model II had the math hardcoded. There was an octal arithmetic option for the Model II, so it could do binary math of a sort. Spent lots of fun hours on a CADET with a 1311 disk drive. --Chuck --===============2507299848831110742==-- From sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net Wed Feb 28 05:03:08 2024 From: CAREY SCHUG To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: recreating old computers [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 23:02:58 -0600 Message-ID: <106219546.539622.1709096578576@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8958170156805776725==" --===============8958170156805776725== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable our 1620 model 2 still did multiplication by table lookup. 
--Carey
> On 02/27/2024 9:53 PM CST Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > On 2/27/24 18:34, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > And the 1620 does addition and multiplication by table lookup. >=20 > That was only the CADET; the Model II had the math hardcoded. There was > an octal arithmetic option for the Model II, so it could do binary math > of a sort. Spent lots of fun hours on a CADET with a 1311 disk drive. >=20 > --Chuck --===============8958170156805776725==-- From lars@nocrew.org Wed Feb 28 06:41:22 2024 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: recreating old computers [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 06:41:13 +0000 Message-ID: <7wa5nlccqe.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <1307686544.531665.1709070540596@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5812660240463211771==" --===============5812660240463211771== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CAREY SCHUG wrote: > What I wish somebody would create is an S-100 card (probably with a > raspberry pie daughter running simulation for future upgradeability) > that, initially emulates a complete Byte-8 or Imsai computer including > memory and disk images on sdc cards, 24x40 display on an HDMI display > and USB keyboard. serial and parallel ports emulated. I believe this tick some of your boxes: https://thehighnibble.com/imsai8080/ --===============5812660240463211771==-- From lars@nocrew.org Wed Feb 28 06:44:40 2024 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: recreating old computers [was: Paper tape in casettes...] Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 06:44:31 +0000 Message-ID: <7w34tdcckw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7529617018808177526==" --===============7529617018808177526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Koning wrote: > Suppose you had schematics of, say, a KA-10. You could turn those > gates into VHDL or Verilog, and that should deliver an exact replica > of the original machine, bug for bug compatible. That assumes the > timing quirks are manageable The mapping from asynchronous pulses, delay lines, etc, to VHDL or Verilog isn't entirely straight forward. Still, it can be done, and in the case of a KA10, it has. See https://github.com/aap/fpdpga --===============7529617018808177526==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Feb 28 08:38:55 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 09:38:43 +0100 Message-ID: <86dfadf-39c2-36db-a072-ba4bbfb6f12b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5641995748257536958==" --===============5641995748257536958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 27 Feb 2024, Dr. Erik Baigar wrote: > I wonder whether anyone kows if someone else had the idea > of putting paper/mylar tape into a casette for repeated use > e.g. to load an OS or similar. The Diehl Dilector had cassettes with a paper tape loop. Christian --===============5641995748257536958==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Feb 28 17:10:14 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 11:10:07 -0600 Message-ID: <826007489.2370357.1709140207651@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0594898809686070396==" --===============0594898809686070396== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 02/27/2024 2:13 PM CST Doug McIntyre via cctalk wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 27, 2024 at 11:10:34AM -0700, ben via cctalk wrote: > > PS: With low cost Chinese PCB's and vintage parts, why are people not > > building real hardware replica's of interesting machines. > But they are.. You might also want to have a look here: http://www.s100computers.com/My%20System%20Index%20Page.htm How about reproductions of "classic" S100 systems? Or a Z180? Or PDP-11 on S100? or 486? Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============0594898809686070396==-- From erik@baigar.de Wed Feb 28 18:11:34 2024 From: Erik Baigar To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 19:11:09 +0100 Message-ID: <636148684.1454526.1709143869371@webmail.strato.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7603933347951280939==" --===============7603933347951280939== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul, thanks for your answer and the interesting links... > > Aha, interesting! Did a short search, but have not been able to > > find a picture of a casette. Just a pile of paper tape instead ;-) > >=20 > > https://images.app.goo.gl/HYqkpYHJUxZeGfiA8 >=20 > Bitsavers has a collection of G-15 manuals. For a picture of an=20 > open cassette, see PDF page 27 in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bendix/g-15/6006= 1400_G15D_Parts_Manual.pdf. Ahh OK, I see. But that is not a hermetically sealed casette =20 suitable for outdoor use in windy, rainy weather like the=20 one on my desk. As the thread deviated meanwhile, I guess the Elliott Mylar tape casette is a unique leftover from the old days ;-) Best wishes, Erik. ''~`` ( o o ) +--------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.-------------------------+ | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | | Salzstrasse 1 .oooO Vintage Computer | | D87616 Marktoberdorf ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist / Physicist | | erik(a)baigar.de +------\ (----( )---------------------------+ | www.baigar.de | \_) ) / +----------------------+ (_/ --===============7603933347951280939==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Wed Feb 28 18:47:08 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes... Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 18:46:45 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5ef02d9a-1bc4-4054-bfaf-66b0b66a1096@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6828892529369338980==" --===============6828892529369338980== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, February 27th, 2024 at 13:30, ben via cctalk wrote: > I had z80/s100 kit once, but the power supply failed taking every thing out. Ouch. > I think the PI is too cheap of computer build wise for emulation > of any system. It might blink your lights, but never run 20 users > timesharing. It depends on what they're doing. I've had twelve folks using a 3B+ as a reg= ular old messing around server before. The microSD card wound up being the bottleneck= . Anyway. > A good home brew computer is what I am looking for. Like this, maybe? https://rc2014.co.uk/ The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============6828892529369338980==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Thu Feb 29 23:52:51 2024 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Decwriter III self test issue? Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 23:52:44 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0322233656265920147==" --===============0322233656265920147== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I recently acquired a very nice decwriter III and it seems in good nick. Howe= ver, the self test "hangs" on the return direction of the second line. Here i= s a video on it: https://youtu.be/pj6rk5Dlnbk Anyone have any ideas where to look? In local mode, it appears to work proper= ly. I haven't tried any external serial connection yet. 73 Eugene W2HX My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos --===============0322233656265920147==--