From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Jan 1 00:03:08 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Axil 220/245 PSU Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 00:02:59 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9012f818-9af9-47ec-b196-5a78cc205f51@snowmoose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2157510288977418328==" --===============2157510288977418328== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe ask in the Classic Computer discord? Very knowledgeable people there. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 31, 2023, at 15:39, Alan Perry via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThe really frustrating thing is that I found a Usenet thread from = 1998, after Axil shut down, where someone asked a similar question about Axil= 220/245 PSUs and a former Axil employee seems to have sent the person docume= nts that he needed to get his system going. Sadly those documents haven't man= aged to make their way to bitsavers or archive.org. >=20 > alan >=20 >> On 12/31/23 3:33 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> Not really. As I said, Sun and Axil, while using the same 12-pin power con= nector, put the pins in different positions and color code the wires differen= tly. For the 220, Axil also sourced the PSU from a different vendor and it is= a completely different size (almost the same size as a flexatx psu). Also, o= nly 10 of the 12 pins are used. >>=20 >> The Sony PSU used in pizza box sun4c system changed from black (GND)/red(+= 5V)/yellow(+12V)/blue(-12V)/orange(+5V POR) to black/red/blue/brown/gray. The= sun4c lunchboxes used the same connector except they started call the orange= /gray pin SENS (is that the same as POR in Sun's usage?). The sun4c lunchbox = scheme continued through the sun4m lunchboxes. The sun4m pizzaboxes went to a= n 18-pin power connector with the same wire color scheme, except gray became = "PwrOff"/"Poff". >>=20 >> The PSU in my Axil 320 (a SS10/SS20 clone) uses the 18-pin connector and a= color scheme similar to the SS10/20 one but I haven't checked all of the pin= s to see if they are completely the same. >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 12/31/23 2:44 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>> Also a link to the lx service manual >>>=20 >>> http://www.obsolyte.com/sun_lx/sparcLX.pdf >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>>> On Dec 31, 2023, at 14:37, Wayne S wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF Does this help? >>>=20 >>> https://allpinouts.org/pinouts/connectors/power_supply/sun-sparcengine-mo= therboard-power-supply/=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>>> On Dec 31, 2023, at 13:48, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFDoes anyone here have a running Axil 220 or 245 (Sun SPARCstatio= n LX clone)? My 220 has a dead PSU and I am trying to get it working with a m= odern PC PSU. But I don=E2=80=99t know the pinout for the power connector. >>>=20 >>> While the power connector is the same as used by Sun, the pinout and, asi= de from +5V and GND, the wire color scheme are different. I have identified 3= of the 6 wire colors and 7 of the 10 pins. The wire color scheme seemed to b= e a match for early sun4c but I just found something that suggests a couple w= ire colors are used differently. >>>=20 >>> I have found that black is ground, red is +5V, and yellow is +12V. White,= orange, and blue are TBD. A marking on the PSU board suggests white is -12V.= Blue and orange seem to only used by a daughter board centered on a LM339 ch= ip. But, as a software guy, I can=E2=80=99t tell what it does. >>>=20 >>> Anyone here have any insight here that might help me? >>>=20 >>> alan >>>=20 --===============2157510288977418328==-- From mark.romberg@gmail.com Mon Jan 1 01:55:46 2024 From: mark audacity romberg To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Axil 220/245 PSU Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 19:55:28 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218142B8019987ED037A006AE462A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7737974095355742423==" --===============7737974095355742423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How does one access the Classic Computer discord? > On Dec 31, 2023, at 18:03, Wayne S via cctalk wro= te: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFMaybe ask in the Classic Computer discord? Very knowledgeable peop= le there. --===============7737974095355742423==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Jan 1 02:07:21 2024 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Axil 220/245 PSU Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 02:07:14 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4208476670423370466==" --===============4208476670423370466== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here=E2=80=99s the link. https://discord.gg/9g5bTAZe Sent from my iPhone On Dec 31, 2023, at 17:55, mark audacity romberg via cctalk wrote: =EF=BB=BFHow does one access the Classic Computer discord? On Dec 31, 2023, at 18:03, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: =EF=BB=BFMaybe ask in the Classic Computer discord? Very knowledgeable people= there. --===============4208476670423370466==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Mon Jan 1 02:07:26 2024 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone have a D1 deck? Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 17:58:33 -0800 Message-ID: <2B6DFB8D-8E20-4731-82CC-59F16393CCB5@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CxjGcjfb=5Fl5qBgdEEzQMPqDDIa0cZDDzA7MD9zXMYpwcbdC8B?= =?utf-8?q?JqOvvrSVeBpZ3sm8YXXW5gQUAtIri8n50i65uJAL4m-cSUO9-l4r55M7lb0=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?virtadpt=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2968841982499728924==" --===============2968841982499728924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dec 31, 2023, at 1:42 PM, The Doctor via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On Saturday, December 30th, 2023 at 23:24, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The Bosch unit may be very difficult to find. Will a Sony >> DVR-1000/2000/2100 do the same job for those tapes? At least a few of >> those seem to be around. >=20 > None of us are sure. The Sony DVR units have been pretty easy to find but > the possibility of messing up any of the tapes even as a test ties everythi= ng > in a knot. I know a few folks are asking around the A/V offices of a couple > of colleges to see if they have any suitable playback units but so far noth= ing > yet (due to semester break). >=20 > The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] > WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ > Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. If there is money to fund this effort, it might be worth talking to Iron Moun= tain, to see if they can handle the media. They have people that do this sor= t of thing, AND, I know for a fact they have hardware to handle some strange = formats. Zane --===============2968841982499728924==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Mon Jan 1 05:02:32 2024 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF EAST 2024 (Wall, NJ) : Registration Links and info Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 00:01:00 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8799870227066431946==" --===============8799870227066431946== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://vcfed.org/2023/12/31/vcf-east-2024-is-coming-april-12-13-14-infoage/ --===============8799870227066431946==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Mon Jan 1 06:02:30 2024 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Axil 220/245 PSU Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 22:02:11 -0800 Message-ID: <037831b8-941e-4193-900f-15bb6ea0db6c@snowmoose.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3675986571284664135==" --===============3675986571284664135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I looked around the board more and found "POR" etched on the board next=20 to where the orange wire is soldered in and "P5" next to where the blue=20 wire is soldered in. "P12" is etched at where the yellow (+12V) wire is soldered in. "GND" is=20 at where the black wires are soldered in. "N12" is at where the white=20 (-12V) wire is soldered in. How should POR be wired? alan On 12/31/23 3:33 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Not really. As I said, Sun and Axil, while using the same 12-pin power=20 > connector, put the pins in different positions and color code the=20 > wires differently. For the 220, Axil also sourced the PSU from a=20 > different vendor and it is a completely different size (almost the=20 > same size as a flexatx psu). Also, only 10 of the 12 pins are used. > > The Sony PSU used in pizza box sun4c system changed from black=20 > (GND)/red(+5V)/yellow(+12V)/blue(-12V)/orange(+5V POR) to=20 > black/red/blue/brown/gray. The sun4c lunchboxes used the same=20 > connector except they started call the orange/gray pin SENS (is that=20 > the same as POR in Sun's usage?). The sun4c lunchbox scheme continued=20 > through the sun4m lunchboxes. The sun4m pizzaboxes went to an 18-pin=20 > power connector with the same wire color scheme, except gray became=20 > "PwrOff"/"Poff". > > The PSU in my Axil 320 (a SS10/SS20 clone) uses the 18-pin connector=20 > and a color scheme similar to the SS10/20 one but I haven't checked=20 > all of the pins to see if they are completely the same. > > > On 12/31/23 2:44 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Also a link to the lx service manual >> >> http://www.obsolyte.com/sun_lx/sparcLX.pdf >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 31, 2023, at 14:37, Wayne S wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF Does this help? >> >> https://allpinouts.org/pinouts/connectors/power_supply/sun-sparcengine-mot= herboard-power-supply/=20 >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 31, 2023, at 13:48, Alan Perry via cctalk=20 >> wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFDoes anyone here have a running Axil 220 or 245 (Sun SPARCstation= LX=20 >> clone)? My 220 has a dead PSU and I am trying to get it working with=20 >> a modern PC PSU. But I don=E2=80=99t know the pinout for the power connect= or. >> >> While the power connector is the same as used by Sun, the pinout and,=20 >> aside from +5V and GND, the wire color scheme are different. I have=20 >> identified 3 of the 6 wire colors and 7 of the 10 pins. The wire=20 >> color scheme seemed to be a match for early sun4c but I just found=20 >> something that suggests a couple wire colors are used differently. >> >> I have found that black is ground, red is +5V, and yellow is +12V.=20 >> White, orange, and blue are TBD. A marking on the PSU board suggests=20 >> white is -12V. Blue and orange seem to only used by a daughter board=20 >> centered on a LM339 chip. But, as a software guy, I can=E2=80=99t tell wha= t=20 >> it does. >> >> Anyone here have any insight here that might help me? >> >> alan >> --===============3675986571284664135==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Mon Jan 1 15:49:47 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Anyone have any IO Corp 8219HP docs or info Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 10:49:31 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6158254512446973728==" --===============6158254512446973728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy New Year everyone! I was wondering if anyone happens to have any documentation or information about the 8219HP adapter by IO Corporation? It is a protocol converter from Twinax to RS232 emulating an IBM 5219 printer. I am mostly looking for information about the option/rate switches on the back. I acquired one of these for cheap recently but haven't been able to find any information about it. Thanks! --===============6158254512446973728==-- From thomasdzubin@gmail.com Tue Jan 2 19:29:32 2024 From: thomasdzubin@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VAX 4000-200 in BA215 chassis. Can I install a KFQSA card and connect the cabinet disks to it? Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 19:29:28 +0000 Message-ID: <170422376829.4006402.4111526240364420256@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6747932887592173943==" --===============6747932887592173943== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a couple of VAX 4000-200 boxen running OpenVMS. I want to try out Ne= tBSD on them but NetBSD does not support the SHAC DSSI controller on the KA66= 0 CPU card. However NetBSD *DOES* support the KFQSA DSSI controller which I= have a few of in my VAX 3800s. Can I install the KFQSA card in my 4000-200, disconnect the internal disks fr= om the SHAC and connect the disks to the KFQSA thereby allowing NetBSD to run? Has anyone done anything like that? Happy 2024 everyone! Thomas Dzubin Calgary, Vancouver, or Saskatoon CANADA --===============6747932887592173943==-- From kiwi_jonathan@yahoo.com Tue Jan 2 19:42:51 2024 From: Jonathan Stone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 4000-200 in BA215 chassis. Can I install a KFQSA card and connect the cabinet disks to it? Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 19:42:39 +0000 Message-ID: <1443453296.7639314.1704224559862@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <170422376829.4006402.4111526240364420256@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5038077482613059817==" --===============5038077482613059817== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, January 2, 2024 at 11:29:36 AM PST, thomasdzubin--- via cctalk <= cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Can I install the KFQSA card in my 4000-200, disconnect the internal disks = from the SHAC and connect the disks to the KFQSA thereby allowing NetBSD >to = run? Ive read (here?) that he BA430 has special magic which connects the KA660's S= HAC to the internal DSSI bus, via the Q22 fingers. The KA660 ROM has built-in machinery to configure DSSI, both the onboard SHAC= and a KFQSA. So in theory, you could use the KA660 boot-rom to configure the KFQSA.to a di= fferent DSSI node number (not already in use). Connect the KFQSA to the "end" of the internal DSSI bus, via the DSSI bulkhea= d. NetBSD won't recognise the SHAC, so you shouldn't need to disconnect the inte= rnal DSSI bus, at least for manually booting from the KFQSA rather than the S= HAC. I have not yet tried this myself, though -- my BA430 has a KN220. =20 --===============5038077482613059817==-- From kiwi_jonathan@yahoo.com Tue Jan 2 19:51:14 2024 From: Jonathan Stone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 4000-200 in BA215 chassis. Can I install a KFQSA card and connect the cabinet disks to it? Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 19:51:02 +0000 Message-ID: <1147539385.7674607.1704225062820@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1443453296.7639314.1704224559862@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4004409654084586300==" --===============4004409654084586300== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 On Tuesday, January 2, 2024 at 11:29:36 AM PST, thomasdzubin--- via cctalk wrote: > Can I install the KFQSA card in my 4000-200, disconnect the internal disks = from the SHAC and connect the disks to the KFQSA thereby allowing NetBSD >to = run? Oh wait, your "Vax 4000-200" is a KA660 in a BA215? Then the internal DSSI is= connected via the 50-pin connector piggybacked on the KA660. Not via the BA430 backplane. Connecting the KFQSA's external DSSI connector t= o the other end of the DSSI bus, via an external DSSI cable, should still wor= k.=20 The possible problem with just disconnecting the DSSi internal cable from the= CPU and leaving it hanging, is no longer terminating that end of the DSSI bu= s.=20 =20 --===============4004409654084586300==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jan 2 20:31:27 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 4000-200 in BA215 chassis. Can I install a KFQSA card and connect the cabinet disks to it? Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 15:31:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1147539385.7674607.1704225062820@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6165148111180165966==" --===============6165148111180165966== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When you get it working maybe post some pictures or a brief description of the setup. I have a 4000-700 that I believe was used in some sort of dual mode like you describe, but it's still on my to be explored list On Tue, Jan 2, 2024, 2:51 PM Jonathan Stone via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 2, 2024 at 11:29:36 AM PST, thomasdzubin--- via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Can I install the KFQSA card in my 4000-200, disconnect the internal > disks from the SHAC and connect the disks to the KFQSA thereby allowing > NetBSD >to run? > > Oh wait, your "Vax 4000-200" is a KA660 in a BA215? Then the internal DSSI > is connected via the 50-pin connector piggybacked on the KA660. > Not via the BA430 backplane. Connecting the KFQSA's external DSSI > connector to the other end of the DSSI bus, via an external DSSI cable, > should still work. > > The possible problem with just disconnecting the DSSi internal cable from > the CPU and leaving it hanging, is no longer terminating that end of the > DSSI bus. > --===============6165148111180165966==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Tue Jan 2 20:56:37 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 4000-200 in BA215 chassis. Can I install a KFQSA card and connect the cabinet disks to it? Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 12:56:19 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1147539385.7674607.1704225062820@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7209408751442768528==" --===============7209408751442768528== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 11:51=E2=80=AFAM Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 2, 2024 at 11:29:36 AM PST, thomasdzubin--- via cctalk = wrote: > > > Can I install the KFQSA card in my 4000-200, disconnect the internal disk= s from the SHAC and connect the disks to the KFQSA thereby allowing NetBSD >t= o run? > > Oh wait, your "Vax 4000-200" is a KA660 in a BA215? Then the internal DSSI = is connected via the 50-pin connector piggybacked on the KA660. > Not via the BA430 backplane. Connecting the KFQSA's external DSSI connector= to the other end of the DSSI bus, via an external DSSI cable, should still w= ork. > > The possible problem with just disconnecting the DSSi internal cable from t= he CPU and leaving it hanging, is no longer terminating that end of the DSSI = bus. > The BA215 internal DSSI cable wouldn't be left hanging when it is disconnected from the KA660 DSSI connector, it would be connected to the KFQSA instead. So there would be no DSSI bus termination issues. I have a BA215 that I sometimes alternate between a KA660, and an M7554 KDJ11-D/S PDP-11/53 (which was originally a DECserver 550 CPU board). When the M7554 KDJ11-D/S is installed I either use a QBus SCSI controller, or a KFQSA attached to the internal DSSI bus. --===============7209408751442768528==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Jan 4 21:32:47 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 21:32:29 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2645799242286807705==" --===============2645799242286807705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and an OS was 89 https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ The great man has left us. I wrote an obituary. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============2645799242286807705==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jan 4 21:50:08 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 16:49:39 -0500 Message-ID: <11E52572-32B1-4F9E-8C3C-9AD684A8E9D6@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9125908560292803256==" --===============9125908560292803256== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 4, 2024, at 4:32 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and > an OS was 89 >=20 > https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ >=20 > The great man has left us. Great man, indeed. I still have a soft spot for Pascal; it's one of only two= languages where I was able to go from zero knowledge to having a fully funct= ional significant program in one week. (The other is Python.) Pascal is still around; the GCC compiler suite has it, and Modula-2 as well. paul --===============9125908560292803256==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Thu Jan 4 22:38:20 2024 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 22:38:13 +0000 Message-ID: <008001da3f5e$b3e5aba0$1bb102e0$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0257563588453183983==" --===============0257563588453183983== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sad news but a great article Liam, thanks for the interesting history. The second language I taught myself was Algol 68 (!), on a DECSYSTEM20. I lea= rned Pascal at University, when I did my M.Sc I used VAX Pascal on a VAX 11/7= 80 and went on to use it as my first professional language. I loved VAX Pasca= l, I could do just about anything I wanted with it. Of course, it wasn't very= "pure" Pascal. Incidentally, I have asked a couple of times before, but if anyone knows of a= ny media with Algol68C for PDP10 I would love to get hold of it. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Liam Proven via cctalk > Sent: 04 January 2024 21:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Liam Proven > Subject: [cctalk] RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus W= irth >=20 > Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and an > OS was 89 >=20 > https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ >=20 > The great man has left us. I wrote an obituary. >=20 > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ > WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============0257563588453183983==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Jan 5 00:09:41 2024 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 16:09:28 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <11E52572-32B1-4F9E-8C3C-9AD684A8E9D6@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3824288675023305690==" --===============3824288675023305690== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 4 Jan 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 4, 2024, at 4:32 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> >> Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and >> an OS was 89 >> >> https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ >> >> The great man has left us. > > Great man, indeed. I still have a soft spot for Pascal; it's one of only t= wo languages where I was able to go from zero knowledge to having a fully fun= ctional significant program in one week. (The other is Python.) > > Pascal is still around; the GCC compiler suite has it, and Modula-2 as well. > Paul, take a look at Lazarus some time. It's pretty awesome. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============3824288675023305690==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jan 5 00:17:56 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 16:17:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3203181029555737147==" --===============3203181029555737147== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice obituary. I'll have to admit I learned a lot about the man reading it. Sellam On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 1:32=E2=80=AFPM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and > an OS was 89 > > https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ > > The great man has left us. I wrote an obituary. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > --===============3203181029555737147==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Fri Jan 5 00:19:00 2024 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 17:18:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4039094911508566849==" --===============4039094911508566849== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My first two pascal programs of any size were an Alarm Clock for my DEC Rainbow and a PDP-11 simulator, also for my DEC Rainbow (I did a science fair project comparing stack machines to traditional ones, but invented my own stack machine and was too young to know the right way to compare/contrast the two different machines, so I scraped by with a better than average rating... mostly because nobody knew how to evaluate it, but that was to my advantage thinking back on it...). Ah, fond memories of Turbo Pascal. Lack of strings, and lack of a good way to do portable I/O doomed the language. Warner --===============4039094911508566849==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 5 00:34:09 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 19:34:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <008001da3f5e$b3e5aba0$1bb102e0$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8651345658377001363==" --===============8651345658377001363== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 4, 2024, at 5:38 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Sad news but a great article Liam, thanks for the interesting history. >=20 > The second language I taught myself was Algol 68 (!), on a DECSYSTEM20. I l= earned Pascal at University, when I did my M.Sc I used VAX Pascal on a VAX 11= /780 and went on to use it as my first professional language. I loved VAX Pas= cal, I could do just about anything I wanted with it. Of course, it wasn't ve= ry "pure" Pascal. >=20 > Incidentally, I have asked a couple of times before, but if anyone knows of= any media with Algol68C for PDP10 I would love to get hold of it. That would be neat, indeed. Where did that one come from? I remember a well= regarded Algol68 subset compiler from the Royal Radar Establishment in the U= K. Don't remember what machine(s) it targeted. There's an Algol68g (GPL-licensed open source implementation). I haven't tri= ed it yet. I think the CDC 6000 Algol 68 is still around somewhere. That one was create= d in Holland. paul --===============8651345658377001363==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Fri Jan 5 00:39:40 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 19:39:25 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <008001da3f5e$b3e5aba0$1bb102e0$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4688752123556987858==" --===============4688752123556987858== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many thanks Liam. N. Wirth, the man and his creation(s), has a special place in my understanding of computers and how programming works - the way it should. Great men do change things and in N. Wirth's case much for the better in the computing world and dare I say beyond. Murray =F0=9F=99=82 On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 5:38=E2=80=AFPM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Sad news but a great article Liam, thanks for the interesting history. > > The second language I taught myself was Algol 68 (!), on a DECSYSTEM20. I > learned Pascal at University, when I did my M.Sc I used VAX Pascal on a VAX > 11/780 and went on to use it as my first professional language. I loved VAX > Pascal, I could do just about anything I wanted with it. Of course, it > wasn't very "pure" Pascal. > > Incidentally, I have asked a couple of times before, but if anyone knows > of any media with Algol68C for PDP10 I would love to get hold of it. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Liam Proven via cctalk > > Sent: 04 January 2024 21:32 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Liam Proven > > Subject: [cctalk] RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator > Niklaus Wirth > > > > Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and an > > OS was 89 > > > > https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ > > > > The great man has left us. I wrote an obituary. > > > > -- > > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ > > WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > > --===============4688752123556987858==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jan 5 00:51:25 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 16:51:09 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6865761383588443542==" --===============6865761383588443542== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pascal has strings. Sellam On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 4:19=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > My first two pascal programs of any size were an Alarm Clock for my DEC > Rainbow and a PDP-11 simulator, also for my DEC Rainbow (I did a science > fair project comparing stack machines to traditional ones, but invented my > own stack machine and was too young to know the right way to > compare/contrast the two different machines, so I scraped by with a better > than average rating... mostly because nobody knew how to evaluate it, but > that was to my advantage thinking back on it...). Ah, fond memories of > Turbo Pascal. > > Lack of strings, and lack of a good way to do portable I/O doomed the > language. > > Warner > --===============6865761383588443542==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Jan 5 01:29:06 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 19:28:54 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <11E52572-32B1-4F9E-8C3C-9AD684A8E9D6@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1525591344036981467==" --===============1525591344036981467== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/4/24 15:49, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 4, 2024, at 4:32 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> >> Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and >> an OS was 89 >> >> https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ >> >> The great man has left us. > Great man, indeed. I still have a soft spot for Pascal; it's one of only t= wo languages where I was able to go from zero knowledge to having a fully fun= ctional significant program in one week. (The other is Python.) > > Pascal is still around; the GCC compiler suite has it, and Modula-2 as well. Yes, I discovered the FPC (Free Pascal Compiler) in Linux=20 that is designed to support the Borland and DEC extensions.=C2=A0=20 I used it to resurrect a significant program from long ago.=C2=A0=20 My experience with Pascal was that once I got rid of the=20 syntax errors and undeclared variables, most programs ran as=20 designed FIRST TIME!=C2=A0 It made me construct the program=20 logically.=C2=A0 Sorry to hear of Mr. Wirth's passing! Jon --===============1525591344036981467==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Fri Jan 5 04:08:23 2024 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 00:08:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5764499075901541587==" --===============5764499075901541587== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pascal did not have strings originally, but it is a common=20 "enhancement".=C2=A0 I recall 40 years ago setting out to write a program to = create a data file using the S/370 ANSI Pascal compiler and it did not=20 have strings. Paul. On 2024-01-04 8:51 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Pascal has strings. > > Sellam > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 4:19=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh via cctalk > wrote: > >> My first two pascal programs of any size were an Alarm Clock for my DEC >> Rainbow and a PDP-11 simulator, also for my DEC Rainbow (I did a science >> fair project comparing stack machines to traditional ones, but invented my >> own stack machine and was too young to know the right way to >> compare/contrast the two different machines, so I scraped by with a better >> than average rating... mostly because nobody knew how to evaluate it, but >> that was to my advantage thinking back on it...). Ah, fond memories of >> Turbo Pascal. >> >> Lack of strings, and lack of a good way to do portable I/O doomed the >> language. >> >> Warner >> --===============5764499075901541587==-- From barto@kdbarto.org Fri Jan 5 06:11:32 2024 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 14:45:23 -0800 Message-ID: <0F1F1199-A337-4AE2-ABD4-94292681C19C@kdbarto.org> In-Reply-To: <008001da3f5e$b3e5aba0$1bb102e0$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5705478152145072878==" --===============5705478152145072878== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I worked on the UCSD Pascal project which started from the P2 compiler that W= irth created for the CDC computer. I loved working on the project and even mo= re learning so much about compilers, linkers, OS design and how to make it al= l work really well and pretty darn fast for a PDP-11/02 with 64K of RAM and a= floppy disk. He will truly be missed. David > On Jan 4, 2024, at 2:38=E2=80=AFPM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Sad news but a great article Liam, thanks for the interesting history. >=20 > The second language I taught myself was Algol 68 (!), on a DECSYSTEM20. I l= earned Pascal at University, when I did my M.Sc I used VAX Pascal on a VAX 11= /780 and went on to use it as my first professional language. I loved VAX Pas= cal, I could do just about anything I wanted with it. Of course, it wasn't ve= ry "pure" Pascal. >=20 > Incidentally, I have asked a couple of times before, but if anyone knows of= any media with Algol68C for PDP10 I would love to get hold of it. >=20 > Regards >=20 > Rob >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Liam Proven via cctalk >> Sent: 04 January 2024 21:32 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Cc: Liam Proven >> Subject: [cctalk] RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus = Wirth >>=20 >> Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and an >> OS was 89 >>=20 >> https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ >>=20 >> The great man has left us. I wrote an obituary. >>=20 >> -- >> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >> Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com >> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven >> IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ >> WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 >=20 There are two ways to write error-free programs; only the third works. --Alan J. Perlis David Barto barto(a)kdbarto.org --===============5705478152145072878==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Fri Jan 5 07:05:30 2024 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 07:05:21 +0000 Message-ID: <00a101da3fa5$8cc73470$a6559d50$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4156263134367181855==" --===============4156263134367181855== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning > Sent: 05 January 2024 00:34 > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Robert Jarratt > Subject: Re: [cctalk] RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus > Wirth > > > > > On Jan 4, 2024, at 5:38 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Sad news but a great article Liam, thanks for the interesting history. > > > > The second language I taught myself was Algol 68 (!), on a DECSYSTEM20. I > learned Pascal at University, when I did my M.Sc I used VAX Pascal on a VAX > 11/780 and went on to use it as my first professional language. I loved VAX > Pascal, I could do just about anything I wanted with it. Of course, it wasn't > very "pure" Pascal. > > > > Incidentally, I have asked a couple of times before, but if anyone knows of > any media with Algol68C for PDP10 I would love to get hold of it. > > That would be neat, indeed. Where did that one come from? I remember a > well regarded Algol68 subset compiler from the Royal Radar Establishment in > the UK. Don't remember what machine(s) it targeted. Algol68C came from the University of Cambridge. It was written on IBM hardware as a portable compiler and it was ported to PDP10 at the University of Essex. > > There's an Algol68g (GPL-licensed open source implementation). I haven't > tried it yet. > > I think the CDC 6000 Algol 68 is still around somewhere. That one was > created in Holland. > > paul --===============4156263134367181855==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri Jan 5 08:03:35 2024 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 07:27:15 +0000 Message-ID: <7wh6jsw88c.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <11E52572-32B1-4F9E-8C3C-9AD684A8E9D6@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8522171851165903749==" --===============8522171851165903749== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Koning wrote: > Pascal is still around; the GCC compiler suite has it, and Modula-2 as > well. Speaking of which, GCC (or its first attempt) came from a Pascal compiler called Pastel. --===============8522171851165903749==-- From wrm@dW.co.za Fri Jan 5 09:56:54 2024 From: Wouter de Waal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computhink Eagle 32 - software, docs, info? Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 11:56:38 +0200 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20240105115630.0443e280@mort.dW.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2035097898515447293==" --===============2035097898515447293== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Chris and all >- No video board, whether text or graphics > >Since there’s no video board in the system, and a couple of cables >internally that aren’t attached to anything, I expect it was >removed by a previous caretaker. This is sad because without one >it’s unlikely to come up, not that anyone has found any software >for it. On the other hand, there are zero PALs, so both full reverse >engineering and maintenance should be straightforward. I've scanned the press releases and adverts that come up on Google and I'm going to wager it was meant to be used with one or two terminals. Nowhere do they mention a display, and the adverts show a box sitting next to a terminal. Send me a copy of the ROM binary please? W --===============2035097898515447293==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 5 14:32:08 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 09:23:48 -0500 Message-ID: <72AFEFD2-CEC0-4D4F-BF5A-C2A011FC8252@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7726914025125845247==" --===============7726914025125845247== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 4, 2024, at 11:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Pascal did not have strings originally, but it is a common "enhancement". = I recall 40 years ago setting out to write a program to create a data file us= ing the S/370 ANSI Pascal compiler and it did not have strings. Sounds like ALGOL 60, which suffered from similar problems. (Also no standar= dized I/O.) That was one issue ALGOL 68 corrected. paul --===============7726914025125845247==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 5 16:17:55 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM 5110 IMFs Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 17:00:27 +0100 Message-ID: <98b5063-b73d-d1a5-5018-770f8f876c0@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4834025452252600026==" --===============4834025452252600026== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone here has an actual IMF file (Internal Machine Fix) for the IBM 5110? Not the file called "IMF" on the Customer Support Functions disk/tape, but a real fix. File type should be 23. I am trying to figure out how the patch mechanism works. The IMF is supposed to be loaded with the LOADER utility. Christian --===============4834025452252600026==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Jan 5 16:45:55 2024 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 10:45:39 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4058111892691095881==" --===============4058111892691095881== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In further honor of Niklaus Wirth and Pascal: In a Poly-88 system I acquired last year, it had a printing of the Tiny Pascal Compiler article in a 1978 BYTE publication. That has BASIC source code for the initial interpreter of a Pascal compiler. We ported that over to the Commodore BASIC V2, as used on the Commander X16 system. As-is it only supported the INTEGER type (and arrays thereof). It compiles to a "p-code" where then an interpreter executes those results. The thing about the X16 system is we have BASLOAD that adds a few features to BASIC: long variable names, and symbolic GOTO/GOSUB so that line numbers aren't needed (effectively a kind of QuickBASIC front end to the native BASIC of the host system). It works splendidly at making it far easier to write up more complex BASIC programs. With the original TinyPascal baseline all working, now Martin Schmalenbach is taking the initiative of expanding the type support (including pointer support) and has a working "Version 1" that handles some simple input and output. We realize use of BASIC and p-code was never the most efficient approach to building a robust compiler and development environment. But we still consider it fun to use modern tools and perspective and pulling further on the threads of that 1978 article and see where it goes. It may be a helpful tutorial on the process of using one language to create another, then using that result to develop the language you really wanted (e.g. using tinyPascal to later write an on-system C compiler). Or it may be an example of a "super sized" BASIC program doing an interesting application (and exercising the multiple banks of the X16 system). Original discussion thread: https://cx16forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6833 V1 introductory thread: https://cx16forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6947 -Steve On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:08 PM Paul Berger via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Pascal did not have strings originally, but it is a common > "enhancement". I recall 40 years ago setting out to write a program to > create a data file using the S/370 ANSI Pascal compiler and it did not > have strings. > > Paul. > > On 2024-01-04 8:51 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Pascal has strings. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 4:19 PM Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> My first two pascal programs of any size were an Alarm Clock for my DEC > >> Rainbow and a PDP-11 simulator, also for my DEC Rainbow (I did a science > >> fair project comparing stack machines to traditional ones, but invented > my > >> own stack machine and was too young to know the right way to > >> compare/contrast the two different machines, so I scraped by with a > better > >> than average rating... mostly because nobody knew how to evaluate it, > but > >> that was to my advantage thinking back on it...). Ah, fond memories of > >> Turbo Pascal. > >> > >> Lack of strings, and lack of a good way to do portable I/O doomed the > >> language. > >> > >> Warner > >> > --===============4058111892691095881==-- From glg@grebus.com Fri Jan 5 21:02:39 2024 From: Gary Grebus To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 15:52:47 -0500 Message-ID: <36cc1f9b-f221-4051-ab3b-0c2134b29176@grebus.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1052279442099986094==" --===============1052279442099986094== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/4/24 19:34, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I think the CDC 6000 Algol 68 is still around somewhere. That one was crea= ted in Holland. >=20 There is NOS/BE install for DtCyber available from retro1.org. It=20 includes binaries of both Algol 60 and Algol 68 compilers. Gary --===============1052279442099986094==-- From kjordan715@gmail.com Fri Jan 5 21:42:55 2024 From: Kevin Jordan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 16:42:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <36cc1f9b-f221-4051-ab3b-0c2134b29176@grebus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0297619945587531649==" --===============0297619945587531649== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Both ALGOL60 and ALGOL68 are also available on the CDC Cyber 865 and CDC Cybe= r 175 at the Nostalgic Computing Center (http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org), = and both are also available in the NOS 2.8.7 distribution with DtCyber in the= GitHub repo at https://github.com/kej715/DtCyber. Pascal is available at tho= se locations too. It=E2=80=99s not the original version written fir CDC Maxin= e=E2=80=99s by Wirth, but probably a direct descendant of it. > On Jan 5, 2024, at 4:02 PM, Gary Grebus via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/4/24 19:34, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> I think the CDC 6000 Algol 68 is still around somewhere. That one was cre= ated in Holland. > There is NOS/BE install for DtCyber available from retro1.org. It includes= binaries of both Algol 60 and Algol 68 compilers. >=20 > Gary >=20 >=20 --===============0297619945587531649==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Sat Jan 6 17:30:19 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone have a D1 deck? Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 12:30:10 -0500 Message-ID: <75FC364C-DE07-4F46-9949-199D00248BD7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2B6DFB8D-8E20-4731-82CC-59F16393CCB5@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8953643271464603283==" --===============8953643271464603283== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You could contact https://www.wmbt.org/ to see if they have a Bosch or Sony D= EC to read the tapes. > On Dec 31, 2023, at 8:58 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On Dec 31, 2023, at 1:42 PM, The Doctor via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> On Saturday, December 30th, 2023 at 23:24, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> The Bosch unit may be very difficult to find. Will a Sony >>> DVR-1000/2000/2100 do the same job for those tapes? At least a few of >>> those seem to be around. >>=20 >> None of us are sure. The Sony DVR units have been pretty easy to find but >> the possibility of messing up any of the tapes even as a test ties everyth= ing >> in a knot. I know a few folks are asking around the A/V offices of a coup= le >> of colleges to see if they have any suitable playback units but so far not= hing >> yet (due to semester break). >>=20 >> The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] >> WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ >> Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. >=20 > If there is money to fund this effort, it might be worth talking to Iron Mo= untain, to see if they can handle the media. They have people that do this s= ort of thing, AND, I know for a fact they have hardware to handle some strang= e formats. >=20 > Zane >=20 >=20 --===============8953643271464603283==-- From kgeisel@outlook.com Sat Jan 6 23:55:49 2024 From: Kurt Geisel To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone have a D1 deck? Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 23:55:41 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <75FC364C-DE07-4F46-9949-199D00248BD7@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2744178635646873935==" --===============2744178635646873935== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FWIW, there is one clearly pictured in their 2023 tour photo album (https://a= pp.photobucket.com/u/WMBT/a/095880e5-c73f-4b8c-ae16-a833b765a209/p/caee04d7-c= 7e4-41a5-98eb-35ce31bb77e5), followed by pictures of D-2, D-3, D-5, etc. - Kurt -----Original Message----- From: Michael Thompson =20 Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2024 9:30 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: The Doctor Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone have a D1 deck? You could contact https://www.wmbt.org/ to see if they have a Bosch or Sony D= EC to read the tapes. > On Dec 31, 2023, at 8:58 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On Dec 31, 2023, at 1:42 PM, The Doctor via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> On Saturday, December 30th, 2023 at 23:24, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> The Bosch unit may be very difficult to find. Will a Sony >>> DVR-1000/2000/2100 do the same job for those tapes? At least a few=20 >>> of those seem to be around. >>=20 >> None of us are sure. The Sony DVR units have been pretty easy to=20 >> find but the possibility of messing up any of the tapes even as a=20 >> test ties everything in a knot. I know a few folks are asking around=20 >> the A/V offices of a couple of colleges to see if they have any=20 >> suitable playback units but so far nothing yet (due to semester break). >>=20 >> The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] >> WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ >> Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. >=20 > If there is money to fund this effort, it might be worth talking to Iron Mo= untain, to see if they can handle the media. They have people that do this s= ort of thing, AND, I know for a fact they have hardware to handle some strang= e formats. >=20 > Zane >=20 >=20 --===============2744178635646873935==-- From mark.kahrs@gmail.com Sun Jan 7 03:45:35 2024 From: Mark Kahrs To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] More ALGOL-68 Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 22:45:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7897524534572563547==" --===============7897524534572563547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember circa 1977 CMU had a PDP-11 compiler for '68 with an extensive runtime component. I presume the sources are lost. Peter Hibbard was the guy responsible if I recall. --===============7897524534572563547==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sun Jan 7 08:38:31 2024 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone have a D1 deck? Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2024 02:38:22 -0600 Message-ID: <33da571d-9262-46ec-90be-2fb3826bae78@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMW4PR11MB8268CC937737604E31470437A6652=40MW4PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?8268=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5185485632143269414==" --===============5185485632143269414== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/6/2024 5:55 PM, Kurt Geisel via cctalk wrote: > FWIW, there is one clearly pictured in their 2023 tour photo album (https:/= /app.photobucket.com/u/WMBT/a/095880e5-c73f-4b8c-ae16-a833b765a209/p/caee04d7= -c7e4-41a5-98eb-35ce31bb77e5), followed by pictures of D-2, D-3, D-5, etc. I'd encourage folks to contact the OP of teh article.=C2=A0 I just forwarded = it to the list for additional exposure. jim --===============5185485632143269414==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sun Jan 7 08:38:51 2024 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone have a D1 deck? Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2024 02:38:41 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <75FC364C-DE07-4F46-9949-199D00248BD7@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7971567556427806457==" --===============7971567556427806457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/6/2024 11:30 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: > You could contact https://www.wmbt.org/ to see if they have a Bosch or Sony= DEC to read the tapes. I'd encourage folks to contact the OP of the article.=C2=A0 I just forwarded = it to the list for additional exposure. jim --===============7971567556427806457==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Sun Jan 7 18:34:32 2024 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 86-DOS disks... Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2024 12:34:16 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2166218917143234031==" --===============2166218917143234031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Really cool btw. I thought it was neat that someone on slashdot also acknowledged the interesting nature of yours being the earliest version now found. A few days after your post but recognized your username https://www.slashdot.org/story/423289 On Sun, Dec 31, 2023, 2:37 PM geneb via cctalk wrote: > For those interested, I've imaged a couple of super rare (actually rare, > not "ebay" rare) original 86-DOS disks. > > https://archive.org/details/86-dos-version-0.1-c-serial-11-original-disk > https://archive.org/details/86-dos-version-0.34-c-serial-221-original-disk > > Both will boot under simh. > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > --===============2166218917143234031==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sun Jan 7 20:34:10 2024 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 86-DOS disks... Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2024 13:33:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4883667167583874530==" --===============4883667167583874530== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I love seeing people I've chatted with here in other contexts. Lars and Zork was a recent one too... Warner On Sun, Jan 7, 2024, 11:34=E2=80=AFAM John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Really cool btw. I thought it was neat that someone on slashdot also > acknowledged the interesting nature of yours being the earliest version now > found. A few days after your post but recognized your username > https://www.slashdot.org/story/423289 > > On Sun, Dec 31, 2023, 2:37 PM geneb via cctalk > wrote: > > > For those interested, I've imaged a couple of super rare (actually rare, > > not "ebay" rare) original 86-DOS disks. > > > > https://archive.org/details/86-dos-version-0.1-c-serial-11-original-disk > > > https://archive.org/details/86-dos-version-0.34-c-serial-221-original-disk > > > > Both will boot under simh. > > > > g. > > > > > > -- > > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > > --===============4883667167583874530==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jan 8 15:18:36 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: More ALGOL-68 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2024 10:18:27 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0706162809351828007==" --===============0706162809351828007== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 6, 2024, at 10:45 PM, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I remember circa 1977 CMU had a PDP-11 compiler for '68 with an extensive > runtime component. > I presume the sources are lost. I once had DECtapes with the (Bliss) sources of the runtime part, but I lost = those long ago. And I never did have the other parts of the compiler. Yes, = that would be neat to find. I believe this compiler was for the CMU home-gro= wn PDP-11 OS. paul --===============0706162809351828007==-- From paul@mcjones.org Mon Jan 8 19:00:37 2024 From: Paul McJones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: More ALGOL-68 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2024 10:52:27 -0800 Message-ID: <0D14AC30-88BD-449D-9106-BAD77FF1EFD7@mcjones.org> In-Reply-To: <170465041030.2847341.8163273559216028062@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2680766583288754652==" --===============2680766583288754652== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 6, 2024,Mark Kahrs > wrote: >=20 > I remember circa 1977 CMU had a PDP-11 compiler for '68 with an extensive > runtime component. > I presume the sources are lost. >=20 > Peter Hibbard was the guy responsible if I recall. Yes, Peter was the author, and he also sponsored a corresponding ALGOL68 subs= et. My =E2=80=9Chistory of Algol=E2=80=9D web site has information here: https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/ALGOL/algol68impl/#ALGOL_68S In particular, there is a snapshot with binaries and some assembler files her= e: https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Algol_68/ and a later rewrite by C. H. Lindsey in the Amsterdam Compiler Kit here: https://github.com/davidgiven/ack/tree/default/lang/a68s https://www.clerew.man.ac.uk/#ALGOL%2068 See my web site cited above for additional information, papers, and documenta= tion. Paul --===============2680766583288754652==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 8 20:12:38 2024 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: More ALGOL-68 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2024 12:12:27 -0800 Message-ID: <7488ecb8652f881c9e47dc62f64af28125deea8d.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1178743866129006129==" --===============1178743866129006129== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the giants of that era, Niklaus Wirth, passed away on New Years Day, six weeks before his 90th birthday. He became disillusioned with the directions that Algol 68 was going. He designed Algol W as a competitor. Algol W became Pascal. --===============1178743866129006129==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Tue Jan 9 21:25:21 2024 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for a DG manual Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2024 16:25:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9184177608659201462==" --===============9184177608659201462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Does anyone have a PDF of the AOS/VS Systems internals reference manual by chance? Thanks, Peter --===============9184177608659201462==-- From Bruce@Wild-Hare.com Tue Jan 9 22:29:33 2024 From: Bruce Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for a DG manual Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2024 15:38:14 -0700 Message-ID: <89fa1de5-cd52-4cd9-8916-f383ef2a26ba@Wild-Hare.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8941122178538920083==" --===============8941122178538920083== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G'day Peter - Currently-available AOS/VS manuals are located in the AOS/VS documentation section on: www.novasareforever.org/dgdocs/index.php Contact me if there is something else that you need... Bruce ..preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 1/9/2024 2:25 PM, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > Does anyone have a PDF of the AOS/VS Systems internals reference manual by > chance? > > Thanks, > Peter --===============8941122178538920083==-- From wrm@dW.co.za Wed Jan 10 10:34:17 2024 From: Wouter de Waal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computhink Eagle 32 - software, docs, info? Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:34:00 +0200 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20240109180406.067a87c8@mort.dW.co.za> In-Reply-To: <170395920795.2847341.4545250500208647638@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8760626571351456318==" --===============8760626571351456318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all Chris gave me a copy of the boot ROM and I played around with it a bit. >I threw the 4KB of boot ROM in Ghidra and confirmed a couple things: > >- At boot, ROM is mapped to 0, and then remapped either by a write=20 >to the location or by a cycle counter: The initial stack pointer at=20 >0x0 is 0x0001fffe and the initial program counter at 0x4 is=20 >0x00ffc026, indicating the ROM is normally located at 0x00ffc000. >- The ROM freely interchanges addresses in the=20 >0x00ffc000..0x00ffffff range and addresses in the=20 >0xffffc000..0xffffffff range, which is annoying to deal with in Ghidra. The code takes advantage of the 68000 sign-extend on absolute short=20 addressing mode, like move.b #$00, $8011. IDA correctly disassembles=20 this to "move.b #0,($FF8011).w". I assume Ghidra if sign-extending=20 it all the way to FFFF8011? >- I/O devices appear to be in the 0x00ff8000..0x00ffbfff range, all=20 >of the devices accessed via the bootstrap seem to be barely above 0x00ff8000. >- Only NMI, bus error, interrupt 2, and interrupt 5 are set up by=20 >the bootstrap. Yup. >- The bootstrap is very bare-bones but still has a bunch of=20 >indirection in it; it=C3=A2=C2=80=C2=99s obviously written in assembly, but = it does=20 >seem to have parameterization so it may support both console and serial I/O. I suspect either some low-level high-level language, or massive use=20 of macros (which is in effect a low-level high-level language :-) Code like: ; Called with A6 pointing to a length and a string address 00FFCA4C : 48E7 8080 MOVEM.L D0,A0,-(A7) 00FFCA50 : 3016 MOVE.W (A6),D0 ; length 00FFCA52 : 48C0 EXT.L D0 00FFCA54 : 206E 0002 MOVEA.L +2(A6),A0 ;=20 pointer to string 00FFCA58 : 508E ADDQ.L #8,A6 ; clear sta= ck 00FFCA5A : 5380 SUBQ.L #1,D0 00FFCA5C : 6B0E BMI $00FFCA6C ; done 00FFCA5E : 518E SUBQ.L #8,A6 ;=20 make space on stack again 00FFCA60 : 1D58 0001 MOVE.B (A0)+,+1(A6) ;=20 one character on stack 00FFCA64 : 4EB8 C566 JSR $00FFC566 00FFCA68 : 51C8 FFF4 DBF D0,$00FFCA5E ; loop 00FFCA6C : 4CDF 0101 MOVEM.L (A7)+,D0,A0 00FFCA70 : 4E75 RTS >I suspect that I can figure out from the pattern of I/O accesses=20 >which devices are at which address in the memory map, at least if I=20 >bring up an emulation in MAME. That should at least allow writing=20 >new code for it, and _maybe_ even figuring out which CRT controller=20 >the video hardware uses and where in the memory map it is. (I=20 >suspect the 6845 and/or 6847 just from the time period, but who=20 >knows? Gotta see what it actually do when trying to show the =C3=A2=C2=80=C2= =9CIPL=20 >IN PROGRESS=C3=A2=C2=80=C2=9D string contained in the ROM, or one of the cou= ple=20 >error strings=C2=85) > =C2=97 Chris --===============8760626571351456318==-- From wrm@dW.co.za Wed Jan 10 10:57:34 2024 From: Wouter de Waal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computhink Eagle 32 - software, docs, info? Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:57:22 +0200 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20240110125440.06768308@mort.dW.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2305303030431242456==" --===============2305303030431242456== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all Oops that went off before I was finished with it. >I suspect that I can figure out from the pattern of I/O accesses >which devices are at which address in the memory map, at least if I >bring up an emulation in MAME. That should at least allow writing >new code for it, and _maybe_ even figuring out which CRT controller >the video hardware uses and where in the memory map it is. (I >suspect the 6845 and/or 6847 just from the time period, but who >knows? Gotta see what it actually do when trying to show the “IPL >IN PROGRESS” string contained in the ROM, or one of the couple >error strings…) As far as I can tell this is where a character gets displayed. ; character in +1(A6) 00FFCE0C : 48E7 C000 MOVEM.L D0,D1,-(A7) 00FFCE10 : 302B 06AC MOVE.W +1708(A3),D0 ; get something 00FFCE14 : 6122 BSR $00FFCE38 ; do something 00FFCE16 : 0040 8000 ORI.W #$8000,D0 00FFCE1A : 11C0 8001 MOVE.B D0,$00FF8001 ; Low byte 00FFCE1E : E048 LSR.W #8,D0 00FFCE20 : 11C0 8003 MOVE.B D0,$00FF8003 ; High byte 00FFCE24 : 11EE 0001 8005 MOVE.B +1(A6),$00FF8005 ; Character 00FFCE2A : 0838 0006 801B BTST #6,$00FF801B ; Wait for a flag 00FFCE30 : 66F8 BNE $00FFCE2A 00FFCE32 : 4CDF 0003 MOVEM.L (A7)+,D0,D1 00FFCE36 : 4E75 RTS ; Here with something (from $06AC(A3)) in D0 ; current guess, it's the cursor position, which then gets translated ; to an X and a Y byte in D0.w 00FFCE38 : 0C2B 0050 06B7 CMPI.B #$50,+1719(A3) 00FFCE3E : 6628 BNE $00FFCE68 ; Return 00FFCE40 : 48C0 EXT.L D0 00FFCE42 : 81FC 0050 DIVS #$0050,D0 00FFCE46 : 4840 SWAP D0 00FFCE48 : 3200 MOVE.W D0,D1 00FFCE4A : 4840 SWAP D0 00FFCE4C : ED48 LSL.W #6,D0 00FFCE4E : 0C01 0040 CMPI.B #$40,D1 00FFCE52 : 6C08 BGE $00FFCE5C 00FFCE54 : 11FC 0000 8013 MOVE.B #$00,$00FF8013 00FFCE5A : 600A BRA $00FFCE66 00FFCE5C : 0441 0040 SUBI.W #$0040,D1 00FFCE60 : 11FC 0001 8013 MOVE.B #$01,$00FF8013 00FFCE66 : 8041 OR.W D1,D0 00FFCE68 : 4E75 RTS Or maybe it's talking to a chip (not 6845 which is memory mapped or 7220 which has two registers only) and someone recognises it? W --===============2305303030431242456==-- From r_a_feldman@hotmail.com Wed Jan 10 18:46:21 2024 From: Robert Feldman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FYI: Hobbes OS/2 Archive logs off permanently in April Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:46:14 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1970085543047339745==" --===============1970085543047339745== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From The Register: Bad news for OS/2 fans: the Hobbes OS/2 software archive is to be shuttered o= nce and for all in April. The Hobbes OS/2 Archive, run as a service by the De= partment of Information & Communication Technologies at the US New Mexico Sta= te University, has announced its impending demise. As of April 15, the site w= ill no longer exist. According to a warning on the site: "After many years of service, hobbes.nmsu= .edu will be decommissioned and will no longer be available. You the user are= responsible for downloading any of the files found in this archive if you wa= nt them. These files will no longer be available for access or download as of= the decommission date." https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/10/hobbes_os2_archive_shut_down/ [https://regmedia.co.uk/2023/12/20/shutterstock_switchoff.jpg] The Hobbes OS/2 Archive logs off permanently in April Fans of the tech dinosaur have a few months to fill their drives with software www.theregister.com --===============1970085543047339745==-- From drb@msu.edu Wed Jan 10 18:56:17 2024 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FYI: Hobbes OS/2 Archive logs off permanently in April Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 13:56:12 -0500 Message-ID: <20240110185612.C498C38E201@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV2PR12MB57271D3585F53D6B3CA95325B5692=40LV2PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5727=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1733332400499992859==" --===============1733332400499992859== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > According to a warning on the site: "After many years of service, > hobbes.nmsu.edu will be decommissioned and will no longer be > available. You the user are responsible for downloading any of the > files found in this archive if you want them. These files will no > longer be available for access or download as of the decommission > date." Jason Scott has indicated he has archiving under control. De --===============1733332400499992859==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jan 10 19:13:03 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FYI: Hobbes OS/2 Archive logs off permanently in April Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:07:50 -0800 Message-ID: <1MBVVT-1rSpGe16fn-00CxNx@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5033889070005844928==" --===============5033889070005844928== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does archive.org have an up to date mirror? -Ali --===============5033889070005844928==-- From jrr@flippers.com Wed Jan 10 21:34:43 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FYI: Hobbes OS/2 Archive logs off permanently in April Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 13:34:37 -0800 Message-ID: <17c704b3-e9f6-47d4-b298-626b149219f0@flippers.com> In-Reply-To: <20240110185612.C498C38E201@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0620893358381831834==" --===============0620893358381831834== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024/01/10 10:56 a.m., Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > According to a warning on the site: "After many years of service, > > hobbes.nmsu.edu will be decommissioned and will no longer be > > available. You the user are responsible for downloading any of the > > files found in this archive if you want them. These files will no > > longer be available for access or download as of the decommission > > date." > > Jason Scott has indicated he has archiving under control. > > De I would also suggest you get archive.org in on it... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============0620893358381831834==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Thu Jan 11 17:11:12 2024 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FYI: Hobbes OS/2 Archive logs off permanently in April Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 17:10:38 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <17c704b3-e9f6-47d4-b298-626b149219f0@flippers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6790719062715765405==" --===============6790719062715765405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wednesday, January 10th, 2024 at 13:34, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: > > Jason Scott has indicated he has archiving under control. >=20 > I would also suggest you get archive.org in on it... If Jason's on the case, the Archive's on the case. As far as I know he hasn't posted a status report so let's give it a day or so. He's a busy guy, and wh= en last I heard he was getting ready to go on travel. The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============6790719062715765405==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Fri Jan 12 00:54:28 2024 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF East 2024 Hotel Blocks Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 19:54:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7115844355647661775==" --===============7115844355647661775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those needing a decent price on hotels, check out the hotel blocks page: https://vcfed.org/vcf-east-hotel-blocks/ Thanks! Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner VCF Mid-Atlantic Event Manager Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ jeffrey(a)vcfed.org --===============7115844355647661775==-- From robinson@tuberadio.com Fri Jan 12 06:18:35 2024 From: robinson@tuberadio.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB: PSU for DEC PDP8F Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 17:02:17 +1100 Message-ID: <0edaf55f95c8b3352f63fe69dffdbb10@tuberadio.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6542038457839355029==" --===============6542038457839355029== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there, I need a power supply for my PDP8F computer. It is missing. The PDP8F 19" chassis box came in 3 different depths, 600 mm (PSU front to back) 370 mm (PSU across the back) 300 mm (PSU front to back) I need the shallow one, the 300 mm PSU front to back. Do you have one available, or know where I can get one please. Even if it is dead! regards ray --===============6542038457839355029==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sat Jan 13 05:22:09 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: PSU for DEC PDP8F Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 23:21:52 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0edaf55f95c8b3352f63fe69dffdbb10@tuberadio.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8348456464666916704==" --===============8348456464666916704== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ray, Do you just need the regulator? I think the part # is 54-09728 or 54- 09827. I'll try to look it up this weekend. Paul On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 12:18 AM Raymond Robinson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi there, > > I need a power supply for my PDP8F computer. > It is missing. > > The PDP8F 19" chassis box came in 3 different depths, > 600 mm (PSU front to back) > 370 mm (PSU across the back) > 300 mm (PSU front to back) > > I need the shallow one, the 300 mm PSU front to back. > Do you have one available, or know where I can get one please. > Even if it is dead! > > regards > ray > --===============8348456464666916704==-- From rick@rickmurphy.net Sat Jan 13 15:27:31 2024 From: Rick Murphy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: PSU for DEC PDP8F Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 09:27:43 -0500 Message-ID: <1608F5E1-441B-46C7-A117-2AFBC373970A@rickmurphy.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6817261930779881023==" --===============6817261930779881023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 54-09728. That's burned into my brain. (Literally dozens of ECOs) -Rick On January 13, 2024 12:21:52 AM EST, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: >Hi Ray, > >Do you just need the regulator? I think the part # is 54-09728 or 54- >09827. I'll try to look it up this weekend. > >Paul > >On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 12:18=E2=80=AFAM Raymond Robinson via cctalk < >cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi there, >> >> I need a power supply for my PDP8F computer. >> It is missing. >> >> The PDP8F 19" chassis box came in 3 different depths, >> 600 mm (PSU front to back) >> 370 mm (PSU across the back) >> 300 mm (PSU front to back) >> >> I need the shallow one, the 300 mm PSU front to back. >> Do you have one available, or know where I can get one please. >> Even if it is dead! >> >> regards >> ray >> --===============6817261930779881023==-- From jbglaw@lug-owl.de Sat Jan 13 18:27:24 2024 From: Jan-Benedict Glaw To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB: ASTEC BM200-3601 (PSU for HP workstation) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 19:17:25 +0100 Message-ID: <20240113181725.GB21521@lug-owl.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9025307936534201945==" --===============9025307936534201945== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! Due to a broken water line, I ended up with a blown BM200-3601 power supply in a HP workstation. These seem to be notoriously failing due to bad caps, but mine was fine until flooded. Found few offers in the USA (~ 1400 US-$), but adding taxes and shipping to Germany, that would probably end at around 2000 €. That's well beyond what I'd be willing to spend on it. :( Thanks, Jan-Benedict -- --===============9025307936534201945==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sun Jan 14 10:35:01 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: PSU for DEC PDP8F Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 04:34:44 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1608F5E1-441B-46C7-A117-2AFBC373970A@rickmurphy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2744625778077420614==" --===============2744625778077420614== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a few left, but not sure where they are. I should have time to dig later this week. On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 9:27 AM Rick Murphy via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > 54-09728. That's burned into my brain. > (Literally dozens of ECOs) > -Rick > > On January 13, 2024 12:21:52 AM EST, Paul Anderson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >Hi Ray, > > > >Do you just need the regulator? I think the part # is 54-09728 or 54- > >09827. I'll try to look it up this weekend. > > > >Paul > > > >On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 12:18 AM Raymond Robinson via cctalk < > >cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Hi there, > >> > >> I need a power supply for my PDP8F computer. > >> It is missing. > >> > >> The PDP8F 19" chassis box came in 3 different depths, > >> 600 mm (PSU front to back) > >> 370 mm (PSU across the back) > >> 300 mm (PSU front to back) > >> > >> I need the shallow one, the 300 mm PSU front to back. > >> Do you have one available, or know where I can get one please. > >> Even if it is dead! > >> > >> regards > >> ray > >> > --===============2744625778077420614==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun Jan 14 19:49:30 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3367402217594980371==" --===============3367402217594980371== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is kind computer related but maybe more ham radio related but I figure if anywhere, here is the place to find an answer. I have a SkyScan ATOMIC CLOCK. It is supposed to get its time from WWVB. The antenna icon that is supposed to mean it is receiving WWVB is on. Your probably wondering why I keep saying "supposed to". The clock is always wrong. Slow by about 2 minutes. Is there a known problem with WWVB? bill --===============3367402217594980371==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Sun Jan 14 20:01:49 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 19:54:07 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB573785494252788F73E92BB3ED6D2=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8542327327657894693==" --===============8542327327657894693== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, If it's an older clock it's probably tripping over a timecode transmission fo= rmat/modulation change. I forget the exact details but changes were required = to my old 8085-based Spectracom receiver. Thanks, Jonathan On Sunday, January 14th, 2024 at 14:49, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > This is kind computer related but maybe more ham radio related > but I figure if anywhere, here is the place to find an answer. >=20 > I have a SkyScan ATOMIC CLOCK. > It is supposed to get its time from WWVB. > The antenna icon that is supposed to mean it is receiving > WWVB is on. >=20 > Your probably wondering why I keep saying "supposed to". > The clock is always wrong. Slow by about 2 minutes. >=20 > Is there a known problem with WWVB? >=20 > bill --===============8542327327657894693==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun Jan 14 20:11:13 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 15:11:01 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CtfJgyNQKUtR1Wyvr73wgxEUxROuOo9alj2Xu4Vl2Ek565ZA=5F?= =?utf-8?q?FnYTxI11JJpoWY0DLcyMv7knkSlPIa-asxGuvBZhUn25b7YbVmtlXfwdopA=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2520559780062141729==" --===============2520559780062141729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/14/2024 2:54 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > Bill, >=20 > If it's an older clock it's probably tripping over a timecode transmission = format/modulation change. I forget the exact details but changes were require= d to my old 8085-based Spectracom receiver. >=20 Thanks, that's probably it. I assume if I build one of the W8BH WWVB clocks that problem either has been or can be fixed. OH well, the clock I have was a gift to my father long ago when I first got him into ham radio. It still serves to remind me of how much I miss him. Thanks again. bill KB3YV --===============2520559780062141729==-- From nw.johnson@ieee.org Sun Jan 14 20:12:11 2024 From: Nigel Johnson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 15:12:00 -0500 Message-ID: <712F0676-71DB-49DE-B1AE-E8AE70B7EEDE@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB573785494252788F73E92BB3ED6D2=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3314453090624007365==" --===============3314453090624007365== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have two watches that sync to WWVB and they always agree with CHU on HF and= a ham rig that syncs to GNSS. So I think it is bang on or there is a governm= ent conspiracy to make us late for work =F0=9F=A4=94 On January 14, 2024 2:49:19=E2=80=AFp.m. EST, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >This is kind computer related but maybe more ham radio related >but I figure if anywhere, here is the place to find an answer. > >I have a SkyScan ATOMIC CLOCK. >It is supposed to get its time from WWVB. >The antenna icon that is supposed to mean it is receiving >WWVB is on. > >Your probably wondering why I keep saying "supposed to". >The clock is always wrong. Slow by about 2 minutes. > >Is there a known problem with WWVB? > >bill --===============3314453090624007365==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sun Jan 14 20:26:44 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 14:21:28 -0600 Message-ID: <515157960.333011.1705263688905@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CtfJgyNQKUtR1Wyvr73wgxEUxROuOo9alj2Xu4Vl2Ek565ZA=5F?= =?utf-8?q?FnYTxI11JJpoWY0DLcyMv7knkSlPIa-asxGuvBZhUn25b7YbVmtlXfwdopA=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7610852641801539559==" --===============7610852641801539559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 01/14/2024 1:54 PM CST Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Bill, >=20 > If it's an older clock it's probably tripping over a timecode transmission = format/modulation change. I forget the exact details but changes were require= d to my old 8085-based Spectracom receiver. >=20 > Thanks, > Jonathan >=20 > On Sunday, January 14th, 2024 at 14:49, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > This is kind computer related but maybe more ham radio related > > but I figure if anywhere, here is the place to find an answer. > >=20 > > I have a SkyScan ATOMIC CLOCK. > > It is supposed to get its time from WWVB. > > The antenna icon that is supposed to mean it is receiving > > WWVB is on. > >=20 > > Your probably wondering why I keep saying "supposed to". > > The clock is always wrong. Slow by about 2 minutes. > >=20 > > Is there a known problem with WWVB? > >=20 > > bill The details are on the NIST website. The format change was 2011 / 2012 ish. = I think the details are in this paper. https://www.nist.gov/publications/new-improved-system-wwvb-broadcast I'm looking at my "atomic" clock and it agrees with the computer. Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============7610852641801539559==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Sun Jan 14 21:56:12 2024 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 13:45:07 -0800 Message-ID: <80EC7777-CF94-4E61-AED2-8238ADF1C2E8@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB573785494252788F73E92BB3ED6D2=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7342117024575441417==" --===============7342117024575441417== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I also have a decades old SkyScan WWVB LCD wall clock which has survived a fe= w sets of leaking AA batteries :).=20 It still keeps accurate, occasionally it doesn=E2=80=99t sync, though I thin= k that can be chalked up to signal propagation. It=E2=80=99s possible the problem is interference EMF, RF etc. Try moving i= t to another place in the room and/or another room. Don Resor There may be some inter Sent from someone's iPhone > On Jan 14, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > This is kind computer related but maybe more ham radio related > but I figure if anywhere, here is the place to find an answer. >=20 > I have a SkyScan ATOMIC CLOCK. > It is supposed to get its time from WWVB. > The antenna icon that is supposed to mean it is receiving > WWVB is on. >=20 > Your probably wondering why I keep saying "supposed to". > The clock is always wrong. Slow by about 2 minutes. >=20 > Is there a known problem with WWVB? >=20 > bill >=20 --===============7342117024575441417==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sun Jan 14 22:43:00 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 17:42:44 -0500 Message-ID: <8554b5ea-d750-4d66-b388-a53c0796be1a@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB573785494252788F73E92BB3ED6D2=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6887275843806615559==" --===============6887275843806615559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have two watches that sync to WWVB and they always agree with CHU on HF and a ham rig that syncs to GNSS. So I think it is bang on or there is a government conspiracy to make us late for work  🤔 73 de ve3id On January 14, 2024 2:49:19 p.m. EST, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: This is kind computer related but maybe more ham radio related but I figure if anywhere, here is the place to find an answer. I have a SkyScan ATOMIC CLOCK. It is supposed to get its time from WWVB. The antenna icon that is supposed to mean it is receiving WWVB is on. Your probably wondering why I keep saying "supposed to". The clock is always wrong. Slow by about 2 minutes. Is there a known problem with WWVB? bill -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============6887275843806615559==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon Jan 15 01:21:54 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 20:21:32 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <80EC7777-CF94-4E61-AED2-8238ADF1C2E8@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4047064944255647805==" --===============4047064944255647805== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Don on the interference. We have a very high noise floor=20 here in Toronto as well as being on the fringe, and an older watch in=20 the same window as my two Citizens frequently comes up with a fantastic=20 date and time - possibly due to lack of data redundancy are error-checking. 73 de Nigel ve3id On 2024-01-14 16:45, Don R via cctalk wrote: > I also have a decades old SkyScan WWVB LCD wall clock which has survived a = few sets of leaking AA batteries :). > > It still keeps accurate, occasionally it doesn=E2=80=99t sync, though I th= ink that can be chalked up to signal propagation. > > It=E2=80=99s possible the problem is interference EMF, RF etc. Try moving= it to another place in the room and/or another room. > > Don Resor > > There may be some inter > > Sent from someone's iPhone > >> On Jan 14, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> This is kind computer related but maybe more ham radio related >> but I figure if anywhere, here is the place to find an answer. >> >> I have a SkyScan ATOMIC CLOCK. >> It is supposed to get its time from WWVB. >> The antenna icon that is supposed to mean it is receiving >> WWVB is on. >> >> Your probably wondering why I keep saying "supposed to". >> The clock is always wrong. Slow by about 2 minutes. >> >> Is there a known problem with WWVB? >> >> bill >> --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============4047064944255647805==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Mon Jan 15 01:41:41 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 01:41:25 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2292628182684885523==" --===============2292628182684885523== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I agree with Don on the interference. We have a very high noise floor > here in Toronto as well as being on the fringe IIRC there's something on-frequency in England that often swamps WWVB on the = northeastern part of North America, too! Thanks, Jonathan --===============2292628182684885523==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon Jan 15 01:47:11 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 20:46:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Cl3bIw3PFK5zo1RGeuDSG1UTqU9FAV6z4DCUE81Zl0KMZDXJqvx?= =?utf-8?q?qDdEptnyLR8UR5SN3fRcxZ5-midCdJ6U=5FIhvRwOtaOksg=5FH-x4-=5FuisVs?= =?utf-8?q?=3D=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0101434381889253086==" --===============0101434381889253086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That would be good old MSF! https://www.npl.co.uk/msf-signal I wasn't aware of it being heard in NA though - maybe being in the great=20 lakes is a bit too far. Bit it should still sync correctly! cheers, Nigel On 2024-01-14 20:41, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> I agree with Don on the interference. We have a very high noise floor >> here in Toronto as well as being on the fringe > IIRC there's something on-frequency in England that often swamps WWVB on th= e northeastern part of North America, too! > > Thanks, > Jonathan --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============0101434381889253086==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jan 15 03:07:12 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 22:06:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <515157960.333011.1705263688905@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0543851843991051404==" --===============0543851843991051404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will Cooke and Jonathon Chapman explained it. A change to the protocol that old clocks don't know about. bill --===============0543851843991051404==-- From chrise@pobox.com Mon Jan 15 04:05:29 2024 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 21:55:36 -0600 Message-ID: <7D22416E-B7B2-4DDA-9EC7-CB905E4B2D7D@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR17MB573741721AB0B0B4BD6D731CED6C2=40SA1PR17MB?= =?utf-8?q?5737=2Enamprd17=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8617312497963962856==" --===============8617312497963962856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are a number of WWVB simulator projects out there that will transmit a = weak but usable signal to your clock after getting sync=E2=80=99d from ntp or= GPS NMEA time messages. They were developed to help people develop receiver= s :-) One in particular uses an AVR and it should be pretty simple to make = it do the =E2=80=9Cold protocol=E2=80=9D. You=E2=80=99d then hide this behin= d your clock and it will sync to it instead of the actual WWVB signal. Solve= s the protocol problem and the weak signal problem from real WWVB with one li= ttle circuit. If Google does not provide, I can dig up some links tomorrow. Chris N0JCF -- Chris Elmquist > On Jan 14, 2024, at 9:10=E2=80=AFPM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 > Will Cooke and Jonathon Chapman explained it. >=20 > A change to the protocol that old clocks don't know about. >=20 > bill --===============8617312497963962856==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Mon Jan 15 05:22:05 2024 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 05:15:20 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4161702926454498438==" --===============4161702926454498438== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sceptical that MSF is a jammer for WWVB in North America. =20 DCF (77k5, German) commonly provides better signal strength / reception than = MSF in the UK. However, if RF is involved ... Martin -----Original Message----- From: Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 15 January 2024 01:47 To: Jonathan Chapman via cctalk Cc: Nigel Johnson Ham Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB That would be good old MSF! https://www.npl.co.uk/msf-signal I wasn't aware of it being heard in NA though - maybe being in the great lake= s is a bit too far. Bit it should still sync correctly! cheers, Nigel On 2024-01-14 20:41, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> I agree with Don on the interference. We have a very high noise floor >> here in Toronto as well as being on the fringe > IIRC there's something on-frequency in England that often swamps WWVB on th= e northeastern part of North America, too! > > Thanks, > Jonathan --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============4161702926454498438==-- From tim@tim-mann.org Mon Jan 15 10:52:10 2024 From: Tim Mann To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Shugart 850/851 repair needed Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 18:27:06 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2569707188119805038==" --===============2569707188119805038== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks -- long time no post. I'm wondering if there's anyone who would be interested in trying to fix my Shugart 850/851 8-inch floppy drive. It was new old stock when I bought it, and hasn't been used much, but last time I tried it, it would no longer read any data from the back of a floppy, only from the front. I use it with a Catweasel and my cw2dmk software, so I was able to try a few experiments from the software side. What I see is just plain noise coming out on the data line when reading the back. It's possible of course that some unobtainium chip has gone bad, so I don't expect much. But it would be nice if someone with more electronics skill than me, and more knowledge about these drives in particular, would be willing to take a look at it. The drive is of course big and tough to ship, so it probably only makes sense for someone within driving distance (I can drive it over or you can come by), which means being in the SF Bay area. I live in Palo Alto right near downtown. FWIW, the drive and a power supply are mounted in a case that I made by ripping the guts out of a surplus desktop PC case. The power supply seems fine and the drive can read the front of disks fine. Thanks for any help, Tim --===============2569707188119805038==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 15 12:51:49 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Shugart 850/851 repair needed Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 13:51:34 +0100 Message-ID: <37c0e755-455-8737-e11a-ca2dd1655848@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2231940962986025681==" --===============2231940962986025681== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 14 Jan 2024, Tim Mann wrote: > and hasn't been used much, but last time I tried it, it would no longer > read any data from the back of a floppy, only from the front. I use it with > a Catweasel and my cw2dmk software, so I was able to try a few experiments > from the software side. What I see is just plain noise coming out on the > data line when reading the back. I suppose that you are using two-sided floppies ;-) The drives that I know only have one path from the head to the computer, i.e. they only have one read amplifier and so on. The selection of one of the two heads is done with biasing the corresponding diodes (used as DC switched AC gates, labelled CR1..CR8 in the schematics). I would check the path from the side select signal up to there. Maybe the head select driver (IC 5A) has a problem. Check pins 6 and 7, as well as pin 9 (side zero select). Christian --===============2231940962986025681==-- From chrise@pobox.com Mon Jan 15 15:47:29 2024 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 09:47:18 -0600 Message-ID: <20240115154718.GS23409@n0jcf.net> In-Reply-To: <7D22416E-B7B2-4DDA-9EC7-CB905E4B2D7D@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2512603235183530056==" --===============2512603235183530056== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday (01/14/2024 at 09:55PM -0600), Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > There are a number of WWVB simulator projects out there that will transmit = a weak but usable signal to your clock after getting sync=E2=80=99d from ntp = or GPS NMEA time messages. They were developed to help people develop receiv= ers :-) One in particular uses an AVR and it should be pretty simple to mak= e it do the =E2=80=9Cold protocol=E2=80=9D. You=E2=80=99d then hide this beh= ind your clock and it will sync to it instead of the actual WWVB signal. Sol= ves the protocol problem and the weak signal problem from real WWVB with one = little circuit. >=20 > If Google does not provide, I can dig up some links tomorrow. Hmm. Strange. I did follow-up shortly after the above post with this link, https://www.instructables.com/WWVB-Simulator/ but I don't see that that made it to the list. Chris --=20 Chris Elmquist --===============2512603235183530056==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jan 15 17:52:27 2024 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 12:52:15 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20240115154718.GS23409@n0jcf.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3797474221221950519==" --===============3797474221221950519== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/15/2024 10:47 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > On Sunday (01/14/2024 at 09:55PM -0600), Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: >> There are a number of WWVB simulator projects out there that will transmit= a weak but usable signal to your clock after getting sync=E2=80=99d from ntp= or GPS NMEA time messages. They were developed to help people develop recei= vers :-) One in particular uses an AVR and it should be pretty simple to ma= ke it do the =E2=80=9Cold protocol=E2=80=9D. You=E2=80=99d then hide this be= hind your clock and it will sync to it instead of the actual WWVB signal. So= lves the protocol problem and the weak signal problem from real WWVB with one= little circuit. >> >> If Google does not provide, I can dig up some links tomorrow. >=20 > Hmm. Strange. I did follow-up shortly after the above post with this > link, >=20 > https://www.instructables.com/WWVB-Simulator/ >=20 > but I don't see that that made it to the list. >=20 > Chris >=20 It did. I got it. bill --===============3797474221221950519==-- From r_a_feldman@hotmail.com Mon Jan 15 20:17:39 2024 From: Robert Feldman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 20:17:31 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5059050613120541227==" --===============5059050613120541227== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Message: 17 >Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 12:52:15 -0500 >From: Bill Gunshannon >Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB >To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed > >On 1/15/2024 10:47 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: >> On Sunday (01/14/2024 at 09:55PM -0600), Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: >>> There are a number of WWVB simulator projects out there that will transmi= t a weak but usable signal to your clock after getting sync=E2=80=99d from nt= p or GPS NMEA time messages. They were developed to help people develop rece= ivers :-) One in particular uses an AVR and it should be pretty simple to m= ake it do the =E2=80=9Cold protocol=E2=80=9D. You=E2=80=99d then hide this b= ehind your clock and it will sync to it instead of the actual WWVB signal. S= olves the protocol problem and the weak signal problem from real WWVB with on= e little circuit. >>> >>> If Google does not provide, I can dig up some links tomorrow. >> >> Hmm. Strange. I did follow-up shortly after the above post with this >> link, >> >> https://www.instructables.com/WWVB-Simulator/ >> >> but I don't see that that made it to the list. >> >> Chris >> > >It did. I got it. > >bill Your original email with the link did not make it into the digest, which is w= hat I receive. Chirs, Did you also send it directly to Bill. Perhaps that is what he got. Bob --===============5059050613120541227==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Tue Jan 16 02:39:54 2024 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 02:39:48 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV2PR12MB5727979ED51456DBFF5C94B3B56C2=40LV2PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5727=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2519536219686509017==" --===============2519536219686509017== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm in San Jose, Calif. I have a cheap clock that I picked up at a garage sal= e. It being a cheap clock, uses a ferite rod, so is quite directional. Also, = I need to place it in a window as well. It seems to pick up the signal at lea= st once a day, most likely after dark. Mine blinks the antenna signal when it thinks it is receiving the signal and = then has a solid one when it updates, for a day. These are all different so y= our milage may vary. Dwight ________________________________ From: Robert Feldman via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 15, 2024 12:17 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Robert Feldman Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB >Message: 17 >Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 12:52:15 -0500 >From: Bill Gunshannon >Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB >To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed > >On 1/15/2024 10:47 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: >> On Sunday (01/14/2024 at 09:55PM -0600), Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: >>> There are a number of WWVB simulator projects out there that will transmi= t a weak but usable signal to your clock after getting sync=E2=80=99d from nt= p or GPS NMEA time messages. They were developed to help people develop rece= ivers :-) One in particular uses an AVR and it should be pretty simple to m= ake it do the =E2=80=9Cold protocol=E2=80=9D. You=E2=80=99d then hide this b= ehind your clock and it will sync to it instead of the actual WWVB signal. S= olves the protocol problem and the weak signal problem from real WWVB with on= e little circuit. >>> >>> If Google does not provide, I can dig up some links tomorrow. >> >> Hmm. Strange. I did follow-up shortly after the above post with this >> link, >> >> https://www.instructables.com/WWVB-Simulator/ >> >> but I don't see that that made it to the list. >> >> Chris >> > >It did. I got it. > >bill Your original email with the link did not make it into the digest, which is w= hat I receive. Chirs, Did you also send it directly to Bill. Perhaps that is what he got. Bob --===============2519536219686509017==-- From chrise@pobox.com Tue Jan 16 03:33:44 2024 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 21:33:20 -0600 Message-ID: <3C80845D-C43F-42C1-9983-765EBF68DBF5@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV2PR12MB5727979ED51456DBFF5C94B3B56C2=40LV2PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5727=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7477910641178613759==" --===============7477910641178613759== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 > Your original email with the link did not make it into the digest, which is= what I receive. >=20 > Chirs, Did you also send it directly to Bill. Perhaps that is what he got. >=20 > Bob Yes, sorry. I sent the follow-up hastily on an iPad, and the URL I thought I= was pasting was an image and some junk. DennisB let me know of my fail as t= he list stripped the image and the junk, leaving nothing to forward. I tried = again from a real computer where plain text is still a thing and that was wha= t made the list. Bill likely got both attempts. Anyway, hopefully that particular project is useful or if not, there are simi= lar solutions out there. Chris --===============7477910641178613759==-- From rdbrown0au@gmail.com Tue Jan 16 11:52:54 2024 From: Rodney Brown To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Forth on the HP 3000: Alternate History Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 22:52:42 +1100 Message-ID: <87be5006-ba69-472d-83da-77b2571fdce4@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2962967519345750090==" --===============2962967519345750090== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Forth was ported to an HP-2100 in 1972, by Elizabeth Rather, so had early history on HP hardware, though from what I can it it was never a product available from HP. I don't know if Forth Inc ever supported Forth on HP machines. Anthony Pepin provided a Forth to the HP3000 Contributed Library in September 1982, though I think his looks like a virtual machine, I don't remember trying it in the day. Thanks to Gavin Scott's "system" and J. David Bryan's SIMH HP-3000 emulator, I can look at it now. As Anthony Pepin observed, Forth implementations at the time assumed a von Neumann architecture. The HP 3000 with a Harvard architecture implying read-only code with a different address space, needs more thought. Why Forth? I've never been a Forth programmer, but as I understand it, compilers/interpreters weren't standard with HP 3000 Systems, nor were there scripting languages like awk, sed & perhaps the Bourne shell on Unix. A Forth interpreter supporting the HP 3000's supported types & the mathematical functions in SL.PUB.SYS (the system shared library), even without compilation, would have been bettered by the Unix dc (RPN calculator) only for it's multi-precision maths. HP 3000 types (using kludged C style int16_t => INTEGER, uint16_t => LOGICAL, int32_t => DOUBLE f32_hp3k_t = REAL, f48_hp3k_t => LONG REAL COMPLEX & Packed Decimal? A Forth supporting code compiled to Data space would have been a useful tool for learning & testing & perhaps as a scripting language. With Date & Actuarial procedures added, I suspect our Actuarial students would have found it useful. Don't know if it would have been seen as useful at educational institutions like RMIT here in Melbourne, Australia that had 3000s. Assemblers in Forth seem to be a common thing, it would be possible to assemble the Data space code with minor peephole optimization, and the necessary translation from modifying the Next Data instruction variable to branches in the code. That and the Dictionary entry could then be written out as an input file for PATCH.PUB.SYS, allowing the interpreter to be extended without understanding the USL format. I've finally read some of Koopman, Philip (1989) "Stack Computers: The New Wave" looked a little at his Harris RTX-2000 MS-DOS Emulator source, and at James Bowman "J1: a small Forth CPU Core for FPGAs". Like the HP 3000, the Harris RTX-20[01]0 & the J1 are 16-bit machines with a 16-bit instruction width (soley for the Harris & J1). Other than the HP 3000, the architecture use the sign bit to use the instruction value as a call-target address or decode an ALU operation with some Forth special sauce. I've wondered for a while whether the HP 3000 XEQ instruction which executes a stack adressable 16-bit word (0..15 deep on the Stack-Up stack (S register)) has been used for anything other than exiting to clean up the stack on a Ctl-Y trap. A virtual Forth machine where negative int16_t values give a negated call address, with the least-significant bit selecting Code or Data. Almost all 16-bit HP 3000 instructions are positive. Below is an SPL sketch of the virtual machine interpreter Nonsense @ characters are *Fix Me*s    equate Deepest = 15, Dict'Sz = 1024, Padded'Dict'Sz = Dict'Sz + 16;    integer X = X;    logical PB'Address; << Poor Name>>    logical bu'S'15;    pointer restore'S'15;    logical S'15 = S - 15;    logical D'Dict'Used := 0;    logical Code'Offset;    label Next'Word, Execute'TOS, ...    integer array D'Dict(Padded'Dict'Sz);    << Code must immediately follow, need to access padding perhaps >> Next'Word:    TOS := D'Dict(Code'Offset);    if < then begin << Call (int16_t < 0) >>       Return'Stack'X := Return'Stack'X + 1;       Return'Stack(Return'Stack'X) := -((Code'Offset + 1) & LSL(1)));       assemble(NEG, DUP);       if TOS then begin << Odd => PB (Code) address >>      PB'Address := TOS & LSR(1);      Assemble (@); << Indirect Jump through PB'Address Variable >>       else begin << Even Data Address >>      TOS := TOS & LSR(1);      assemble(DUP);      if TOS >= D'Dict'Used then begin         Error(@);      end      else begin         Code'Offset := TOS; << Weak bounds check >>         goto Next'Word;      end;       end       else begin << (int16_t >= 0), HP-3000 16-bit instruction >> Execute'TOS:      bu'S'15 := S'15;  << Needs testing, backup the value >>      @restore'S'15 := @S'15;  << Save Data address of stack element >>      S'15 := TOS;      << Save the instruction as deep as possible >>      assemble(XEQ 14); << Needs testing probably wrong depth number >>                << Execute the instruction just deposited >>      restore'S'15 := bu'S'15;      Code'Offset := Code'Offset + 1;      goto Next'Word;       end;       << Not sure how to handle end of the Forth code in Data      Could call to a PB (Code) address or do an indirect branch through      a procedure local to the handle code. So in data, a sentinal of sorts>>       << Have Execute'TOS as a label for flexibily >> << Basically, Search the DB (Data) Forth dictionary, if found interpret the data code, otherwise search the PB (Code) Forth dictionary, if found jump to and execute the the code directly. >> <> -- The output from BUILDINT.PUB.SYS over a copy of SPLINTR.PUB.SYS gives the type signatures of the System Intrinsics and compiler library routines. This could be curated & processed to generate shims for calling from the Forth interpreter, though the Option Variable Procedures would take some thought. There seem to be ~600 declarations, some of which are duplicate entry points for the Fortran compiler library for REAL  & LONG REAL functions. (ie RAND & RAND' etc), so you'd need 3 or more code segments to get around ~256 STT (Segment Transfer Table) limit to call everything. Virtual Stack machines executing directly on the HP 3000 stack was what our COCAM language did. Comments? Were HP doing anything like this in the labs? Philip Koopman's Stack page at CMU http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack.html --===============2962967519345750090==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Jan 16 14:22:54 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] The Sinclair QL's legacy at 40 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:22:37 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8345463698449766515==" --===============8345463698449766515== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My 1st contribution to the Register's "retro tech week" may amuse... https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/16/ql_legacy_at_40/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8345463698449766515==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Tue Jan 16 14:42:53 2024 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Sinclair QL's legacy at 40 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 09:42:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7871136580923885699==" --===============7871136580923885699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024-01-16 09:22, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > My 1st contribution to the Register's "retro tech week" may amuse... > > https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/16/ql_legacy_at_40/ > I'll see your 'amuse' and raise you one 'hilarious' this is one I submitted ... https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/24/who_me_pdp_11_election/ cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============7871136580923885699==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 16 15:04:10 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Forth on the HP 3000: Alternate History Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:04:01 -0500 Message-ID: <24BC1B94-988E-41AC-A419-C7900E355849@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <87be5006-ba69-472d-83da-77b2571fdce4@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5677419365218938617==" --===============5677419365218938617== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 16, 2024, at 6:52 AM, Rodney Brown via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Forth was ported to an HP-2100 in 1972, by Elizabeth Rather, so had early > history on HP hardware, though from what I can it it was never a product > available from HP. > I don't know if Forth Inc ever supported Forth on HP machines. > Anthony Pepin provided a Forth to the HP3000 Contributed Library in > September 1982, though I think his looks like a virtual machine, I don't > remember trying it in the day. > Thanks to Gavin Scott's "system" and J. David Bryan's SIMH HP-3000 emulator, > I can look at it now. > As Anthony Pepin observed, Forth implementations at the time assumed a > von Neumann architecture. The HP 3000 with a Harvard architecture implying > read-only code with a different address space, needs more thought. Is the HP implementation a derivative of FIG-FORTH? (FIG is "FORTH Interest = Group".) The PDP-11 FORTH available a bit later came from there. I don't kn= ow the full timeline, FIG may have been later. That version was released by = DEC as an "Unsupported" program for RSTS. FORTH by its nature actually fits well in Harvard architectures. While it's = not quite the same consideration, a number of implementations of it handle RA= M/ROM or RAM/Flash splits nicely. > Why Forth? FORTH is compact and powerful, though a bit tricky to use. I did a lot of wo= rk with it at DEC (the RSTS FORTH port is my work, as are several of the FORT= H based utilities that shipped with it). And in the past 6 months I've gotte= n back into it, using the very nice "Zeptoforth" version for the Raspberry Pi= co and similar dirt-cheap microcontrollers. > ... > Assemblers in Forth seem to be a common thing, it would be possible to > assemble the Data space code with minor peephole optimization, and the nece= ssary > translation from modifying the Next Data instruction variable to branches i= n the > code. That and the Dictionary entry could then be written out as an input f= ile > for PATCH.PUB.SYS, allowing the interpreter to be extended without understa= nding > the USL format. A key FORTH principle is extensibility. The normal implementation technique = is that a small set of "words" is implemented in assembly code, and then all = the rest is in FORTH. You can see this in PDP-11 FORTH -- while it's all one= big assembler source file, most of what's in it is FORTH compiled code writt= en out as a sequence of MACRO-11 statements. In Zeptoforth it's even more ex= plicit: the assembler code is for the "kernel" and you then feed it the FORTH= source files for everything else to give you the final product. And FORTH applications can extend or adjust the language if they want. The R= STS dump analyzer SDA is an example: it changes the FORTH interpreter from a = 16-bit one to a 32-bit one so PDP-11 physical addresses can be manipulated ea= sily. > I've finally read some of Koopman, Philip (1989) "Stack Computers: The New = Wave" looked a little at his Harris RTX-2000 MS-DOS Emulator source, and at > James Bowman "J1: a small Forth CPU Core for FPGAs". > Like the HP 3000, the Harris RTX-20[01]0 & the J1 are 16-bit machines with a > 16-bit instruction width (soley for the Harris & J1). Later FORTH implementations may be 32-bit native; the Pico one is, for exampl= e. The original FORTH definition is 16 bit oriented but later on that was cl= eaned up; there is an ANSI FORTH standard that's independent of word size.=20 It would be an amusing retrocomputing exercise to port FORTH to old architect= ures. It may be a good fit for the B5500 (though FORTH requires two stacks, = not the usual one). But imagine your favorite classic architecture running F= ORTH... paul --===============5677419365218938617==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 16 15:18:11 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Sinclair QL's legacy at 40 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:17:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8843617128922521541==" --===============8843617128922521541== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 16, 2024, at 9:42 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/24/who_me_pdp_11_election/ That reminded me of the Lawrence University PDP-11/20 (running RSTS V4A under= very high loads). It tended to crash roughly every 24 hours. DEC tinkered = with it for months, and finally solved the problem by replacing it with an 11= /45 running RSTS/E. Decades later I was told by one of the "Experts from Maynard" that they did f= igure out the cause: it was the FM transmitter (3 kW) just down the hall. Bu= t at the time, as far as I know, no one said so. paul --===============8843617128922521541==-- From julf@julf.com Tue Jan 16 15:19:19 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Forth on the HP 3000: Alternate History Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 16:13:20 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <24BC1B94-988E-41AC-A419-C7900E355849@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5958726483782393287==" --===============5958726483782393287== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16/01/2024 16:04, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > FORTH by its nature actually fits well in Harvard architectures. Indeed - but it really doesn't fit machines that aren't byte-oriented. I started on porting FIG-FORTH to the PDP-10 architecture but quickly abandoned the effort... Julf --===============5958726483782393287==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 16 15:29:44 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Forth on the HP 3000: Alternate History Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:29:35 -0500 Message-ID: <51A8BB62-492F-455C-B2D7-ED2D93DB8D88@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7748801563969045109==" --===============7748801563969045109== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 16, 2024, at 10:13 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 16/01/2024 16:04, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> FORTH by its nature actually fits well in Harvard architectures.=20 >=20 > Indeed - but it really doesn't fit machines that aren't byte-oriented. > I started on porting FIG-FORTH to the PDP-10 architecture but quickly > abandoned the effort... I suppose it's easier on byte-oriented machines but it seems doable on others= . ANSI FORTH may be helpful for this, since it explicitly distinguishes betw= een "character address" and "cell address" (meaning word address). Consider also that Bowman's J-1 FORTH processor is a word-oriented machine. = His presentation slides don't even mention character words at all. paul --===============7748801563969045109==-- From julf@julf.com Tue Jan 16 16:12:15 2024 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Forth on the HP 3000: Alternate History Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 17:03:26 +0100 Message-ID: <7880607a-5cda-49b9-a9ba-91cd85ff4729@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: <51A8BB62-492F-455C-B2D7-ED2D93DB8D88@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7117307437827586740==" --===============7117307437827586740== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 16/01/2024 16:29, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I suppose it's easier on byte-oriented machines but it seems doable on othe= rs. ANSI FORTH may be helpful for this, since it explicitly distinguishes be= tween "character address" and "cell address" (meaning word address). Good point - that would have been helpful! Julf --===============7117307437827586740==-- From gavin@learn.bio Tue Jan 16 17:09:26 2024 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Forth on the HP 3000: Alternate History Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 11:09:09 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87be5006-ba69-472d-83da-77b2571fdce4@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2809616208517697797==" --===============2809616208517697797== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 5:53 AM Rodney Brown via cctalk wrote: > Anthony Pepin provided a Forth to the HP3000 Contributed Library in > September 1982, though I think his looks like a virtual machine, I don't > remember trying it in the day. > Thanks to Gavin Scott's "system" and J. David Bryan's SIMH HP-3000 emulator, > I can look at it now. In related news, we're not too many days away from Dave releasing update 13 of the HP 3000 SIMH, which can simulate an IMB / HP-IB I/O based HP 3000 Series 58 and that means we can now run all versions of MPE V/E up to and including Release 40, the very last release of Classic MPE which is even Y2K compliant (cough, for the next four years, cough). MPE fans can expect a complete MPE V/E Release 40 turnkey version in the very near future. > As Anthony Pepin observed, Forth implementations at the time assumed a > von Neumann architecture. The HP 3000 with a Harvard architecture implying > read-only code with a different address space, needs more thought. I wouldn't call the classic 3000 a Harvard architecture. It's just that its designers probably knew the issues surrounding self-modifying code and decided that all executable code was going to be reentrant and shareable which means it never has to be swapped "out", does not require separate VM backing store (it's swapped in directly out of the program file or SL library file), etc. so it has to be "read only" under execution. The ideas of dynamically generated code, JITs, etc. just hadn't caught on yet. Besides FORTH etc., this caused issues for things like APL\3000 which was developed at HP Labs in the mid 70s. They made it the world's first dynamically compiled APL, but ran into the read-only-code limitations and so they decided to target a virtual "eMachine" rather than native code and then interpret that intermediate code at runtime. They even included a couple new CPU instructions in the APL microcode to accelerate the dispatch of the virtual machine instructions. Unfortunately APL\3000 suffered from performance issues which pretty much doomed it (which is sad because it would really have shined as later machines got faster and wider). But now in retrospect I wonder why they (and others) didn't just say "Ok guys, we need to dynamically emit and modify code now please." and solve the problem properly. It seems like it would be a relatively small amount of code to implement effective workarounds, even in the extant MPE software and hardware environment. One thought would be to provide a big SL library file full of code segments that are nothing but NOOPs, and then have the application choose one of them and just write the code directly into the segment in the SL file and then dynamically load it. A few more lines of code to update the code segment in memory if it's already present. "ZOMG! Hax! Privileged Mode!" you may cry, but geez, all this stuff that looked scary at the time sure looks really trivial compared to what we have to deal with now. The Classic 3000 is a neat architecture and back in the day we always figured out a way to do whatever we needed to. Gavin --===============2809616208517697797==-- From rdbrown0au@gmail.com Wed Jan 17 13:59:43 2024 From: Rodney Brown To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Forth on the HP 3000: Alternate History Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 00:59:33 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <24BC1B94-988E-41AC-A419-C7900E355849@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2042924379221246074==" --===============2042924379221246074== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/1/24 02:04, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jan 16, 2024, at 6:52 AM, Rodney Brown via cctalk wrote: >> >> Forth was ported to an HP-2100 in 1972, by Elizabeth Rather, so had early >> history on HP hardware, though from what I can it it was never a product >> available from HP. >> I don't know if Forth Inc ever supported Forth on HP machines. >> Anthony Pepin provided a Forth to the HP3000 Contributed Library in >> September 1982, though I think his looks like a virtual machine, I don't >> remember trying it in the day. >> Thanks to Gavin Scott's "system" and J. David Bryan's SIMH HP-3000 emulato= r, >> I can look at it now. .... >> Is the HP implementation a derivative of FIG-FORTH? (FIG is "FORTH Intere= st Group".) The PDP-11 FORTH available a bit later came from there. I don't= know the full timeline, FIG may have been later. That version was released = by DEC as an "Unsupported" program for RSTS. >> >> FORTH by its nature actually fits well in Harvard architectures. While it= 's not quite the same consideration, a number of implementations of it handle= RAM/ROM or RAM/Flash splits nicely. From the HP 3000 source: September, 1982 This program is my personal implimentation of the FORTH language for the HP-3000.=C2=A0 It is based (roughly) on fig-FORTH and trys to be 79-STANDARD. The inital version does not support CODE words, nor system INTRINSICS.=C2=A0 While I eventually hope to support INTRINSICS, I have not yet figured out how to make CODE words work on the 3000.=C2=A0 (Code is code and data is data and never the twain shall meet -- easily, that is!) ... Anthony Pepin >> Why Forth? > FORTH is compact and powerful, though a bit tricky to use. I did a lot of = work with it at DEC (the RSTS FORTH port is my work, as are several of the FO= RTH based utilities that shipped with it). And in the past 6 months I've got= ten back into it, using the very nice "Zeptoforth" version for the Raspberry = Pico and similar dirt-cheap microcontrollers. > > > A key FORTH principle is extensibility. The normal implementation techniqu= e is that a small set of "words" is implemented in assembly code, and then al= l the rest is in FORTH. You can see this in PDP-11 FORTH -- while it's all o= ne big assembler source file, most of what's in it is FORTH compiled code wri= tten out as a sequence of MACRO-11 statements. In Zeptoforth it's even more = explicit: the assembler code is for the "kernel" and you then feed it the FOR= TH source files for everything else to give you the final product. > > And FORTH applications can extend or adjust the language if they want. The= RSTS dump analyzer SDA is an example: it changes the FORTH interpreter from = a 16-bit one to a 32-bit one so PDP-11 physical addresses can be manipulated = easily. > >> I've finally read some of Koopman, Philip (1989) "Stack Computers: The New= Wave" looked a little at his Harris RTX-2000 MS-DOS Emulator source, and at >> James Bowman "J1: a small Forth CPU Core for FPGAs". >> Like the HP 3000, the Harris RTX-20[01]0 & the J1 are 16-bit machines with= a >> 16-bit instruction width (soley for the Harris & J1). > Later FORTH implementations may be 32-bit native; the Pico one is, for exam= ple. The original FORTH definition is 16 bit oriented but later on that was = cleaned up; there is an ANSI FORTH standard that's independent of word size. The Mecrisp implementations for 32-bit ARM or 32-bit RISCV might=20 interest, a smaller REPL than Micropython. > > It would be an amusing retrocomputing exercise to port FORTH to old archite= ctures. It may be a good fit for the B5500 (though FORTH requires two stacks= , not the usual one). But imagine your favorite classic architecture running= FORTH... Forth, Inc. "The Evolution of Forth"=20 https://www.forth.com/resources/forth-programming-language/=C2=A0 has a table= =20 listing 16 models of computers Forth ran on from 1971-1980, with the=20 PDP-11 in 73, not including the microForth implementation for the=20 RCA-1802 microprocessor & subsequently the 8080, 6800, and Z80. I didn't=20 count the 8086 in the table in 1978. Unfortunately, their archive of Forth Systems only includes microForth=20 source & documentation for the RCA 1802. Perhaps Moore's microfiche listings of projects from the early days will=20 get to the Computer History Museum... > paul > > --===============2042924379221246074==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Jan 20 19:09:00 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Forth on the HP 3000: Alternate History Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 14:08:49 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <514523d5-f3cc-4191-9bbe-9e8ff4753ee0@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5303856470397471751==" --===============5303856470397471751== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 19, 2024, at 10:34 PM, Rodney Brown wrote: > ... >=20 > I'm not a polymath who keeps lots of Assembly mnemonics in my head, so I ho= ped the "IEEE Standard for Microprocessor Assembly Language" IEEE Std 694-198= 5 1985 doi:10.1109/IEEESTD.1985.81632 would have taken off. I think only the = Motorola 88000 used it and C probably was far more prevalent. I think the HPP= A 1.1 then started the trend of SIMD instructions, so the portability would h= ave reduced. I had never heard of that IEEE standard, and it doesn't seem to have gone any= where. Which makes sense; assemblers represent the architectural choices of = the hardware, so standardizing them is a strange notion. You could standardi= ze a style of construction (making it sort of a "meta-standard") but that isn= 't very interesting. The general style of opcode and operands had been the p= redominant style by then, and for a long time before. Other styles, like CDC= 6000 Compass (CPU side) or stranger examples seen on Electrologica, haven't = been used in ages. About the only style issue that would be nice to have consistent is ordering:= does destination come first, as with ARM and IBM 360, or source first as wit= h PDP-11 and VAX? Then again, I suppose that's just about as hard a problem = as byte order. paul --===============5303856470397471751==-- From fritzm@fritzm.org Sun Jan 21 03:03:14 2024 From: Fritz Mueller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] vt220 firmware source? Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 19:02:53 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8778236326865081163==" --===============8778236326865081163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks, I=E2=80=99m working on a vt220 debug/repair and have gotten to the point wher= e I need to trace firmware execution at boot. I=E2=80=99ve managed to dump t= he proms (close to but slightly different from the versions in Lars=E2=80=99 = GitHub) and the 8051 internal rom, and can load and disassemble these with th= e s51 simulator. I also have an HP 1660 logic analyzer successfully configur= ed and clipped up to capture instruction traces. I=E2=80=99m about to dive in to commenting the disassembly listings, but figu= red I=E2=80=99d ping here to see if anybody might have done this already in c= ase I wouldn=E2=80=99t have to start from scratch? thanks much, =E2=80=94FritzM. --===============8778236326865081163==-- From rdbrown0au@gmail.com Sun Jan 21 13:29:33 2024 From: Rodney Brown To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IEEE Std 694-1985 Microprocessor Assembly Language - a precis Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 00:29:06 +1100 Message-ID: <5623d076-8143-4440-854c-db691127d819@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0168063866034887529==" --===============0168063866034887529== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 21/1/24 06:08, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jan 19, 2024, at 10:34 PM, Rodney Brown wrote: >> ... >> >> I'm not a polymath who keeps lots of Assembly mnemonics in my head, so I h= oped the "IEEE Standard for Microprocessor Assembly Language" IEEE Std 694-19= 85 1985 doi:10.1109/IEEESTD.1985.81632 would have taken off. I think only the= Motorola 88000 used it and C probably was far more prevalent. I think the HP= PA 1.1 then started the trend of SIMD instructions, so the portability would = have reduced. > I had never heard of that IEEE standard, and it doesn't seem to have gone a= nywhere. Which makes sense; assemblers represent the architectural choices o= f the hardware, so standardizing them is a strange notion. You could standar= dize a style of construction (making it sort of a "meta-standard") but that i= sn't very interesting. The general style of opcode and operands had been the= predominant style by then, and for a long time before. Other styles, like C= DC 6000 Compass (CPU side) or stranger examples seen on Electrologica, haven'= t been used in ages. > > About the only style issue that would be nice to have consistent is orderin= g: does destination come first, as with ARM and IBM 360, or source first as w= ith PDP-11 and VAX? Then again, I suppose that's just about as hard a proble= m as byte orde That was mentioned as a contentious issue. Fischer (December 1979) "Special Feature: Microprocessor Assembly=20 Language Draft Standard" Computer 12(12) pp. 96=E2=80=93109=20 doi:10.1109/MC.1979.1658582. Baldwin, G. (August 1984) "Towards an Assembly Language Standard" IEEE=20 Micro 4(4) pp. 81=E2=80=9385 doi:10.1109/MM.1984.291223 "IEEE Standard for Microprocessor Assembly Language" IEEE Std 694-1985=20 1985 doi:10.1109/IEEESTD.1985.81632 The standard was withdrawn in 2001. None of the articles are freely=20 available. The standard is 19 pages in the PDF. If the effort started in 1976-7, and if it got a reasonable way, may be=20 a samizdat copy in the late 70s might have made a difference. A precis of the standard, using brace expansion, with brackets for=20 optional=C2=A0 & some C stuff. 3.12 Mnemonics: Begin with letter from a verb, no embedding of=20 addressing modes or operand designations. Mnemonics & operands may have types indicated by a suffix ie I single bit I(\d+) ie I1, I18 bit field B: byte=C2=A0 =3D=3D I8 S: short =3D=3D I16 =3D=3D B2 L: long=C2=A0 =3D=3D I32 =3D=3D B4 =3D=3D S2 Q: quad=C2=A0 =3D=3D I64 =3D=3D B8 =3D=3D S4 =3D=3D I2 F for floating pt, FS, FL, FX, FP for the IEEE 754-1985 types D for decimal, so maybe DP for packed decimal Example: CVT.FS .D2.L =3D> Convert int32_t in register D2 to short float As I read it, unless overriden by an assembler directive, the suffixes=20 must be used only when needed. As a teaching tool or an Esparanto in a=20 disassembler the redundancy could help. {ADD,SUB,MUL,DIV}[{U,S}] In general, the destination operand is the first operand. {ADD,SUB}C {INC,DEC} So the DG Eclipse WINC mnemonic would be INC .register.L {CMP,TEST{,SET},NEG,ADJ,CVT,AND,OR,XOR,NOT,{SET,CLR}[{C,V]},{SHL,SHR}{,A}} {ROL,ROR{,C},FILL,PUSH,POP,XCH,IN,OUT} {LD,ST} MOVE ; The destination operand is usually the first operand to match SUB A,B =3D=3D A -=3D B ; The exceptions are the ST, MOVE and OUT instructions {,D,I}{BR,B{Z,NZ,E,NE,GT,GE,LT,LE,H,NH,L,NL,C,NC,P,NP,N,NN,V,NV,PE,PO,T,F}} {CALL,RET,RETI,RETSKIP,SKIP,BRK,CC,EI,DI,ENTER,EXIT,EXT,HALT,INS,NOP,TR,WAIT} 4.4.1 Operators, no surprises to a C programmer except for ~ as exclusive or instead of C's ^ 4.5.1 Numeric constants, default to decimal if the RADIX directive isn't=20 used. Otherwise {B,D,H,Q}'digits, respectively Binary, Decimal, Hex and Octal So ASCII ESC has the value=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 B'11011' =3D Q'33 =3D D'27= =3D H'1B 4.7.1 Address space operators # prefix =3D> literal / prefix =3D> direct address . prefix =3D> register $ prefix =3D> PC relative Without a prefix, the implementor-defined default addressing mode ! prefix =3D> direct page (base page) For segmented addresses the segment precedes the !=C2=A0 ie CODE!100 [] for indexing and indirect addressing. Like operand suffixes or size or type, scaling uses the suffix with a :=20 separator. Size precedes scaling when both are needed, ie A[.3.S:L] =3D> int16_t reg3; int32_t A[]; A[reg3]; 4.7.4 Autoincrement & autodecrement =3D> prefixes or suffixes When a suffix the scaling suffix is last=C2=A0 ie .A2--:L =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D> post-decrement register A2 by 4 When a prefix the scaling suffix is prefixed first=C2=A0 ie :S++.B =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D> pre-increment register B by 2 --Aside there's a bit of a byte-addressed assumption there, in the examples. The HP 3000 had different pointer types for bytes and larger objects, essentially (char *)&an_int16 =3D=3D (&an_int16) << 1; Though an assembler might be able to track the type of objects. I think the Motorola 88000 used IEEE Assembler, but don't remember other=20 uptakes. No DG Aviion stuff on BitSavers that I can see. While I used a little assembler on MSDOS, DG AOS/VS, Vax VMS, mostly C=20 was to the fore. So I saw assembler mainly in gdb or other debugger's disassembly. The HP 3000 could pack 2 stack-ops into 1 16-bit instruction & the RTX 20x0 ALU instruction format http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/sec4_5.html#453 Figure=20 4.9(c) gives a possible NOT, Shift & RET as part of the instruction. I'd guess=20 the itanic would also be uncomfortable, I admit I've avoided even=20 looking at it's disassembled code. Fig 1 1984 article. 6502 example -- LD=C2=A0=C2=A0 .X,/INDEX ; Load 8-bit index into register X.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; LDX=C2=A0 INDEX DEC=C2=A0 .X=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ; Offsets start at 0, = not 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; DEX MOVE .X, .A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ; Move value to accumulator.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; T= XA SHL=C2=A0 .A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ; Double it to form of= fset,=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; ASL=C2=A0 A =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 ;=C2=A0 since table entries are 2 bytes long. MOVE .A, .X=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ; Move offset into index register X.=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; TAX LD=C2=A0=C2=A0 .A,/GOTO[.X]=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ; Get first b= yte=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; LDA=C2=A0 GOTO,X =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;=C2=A0 of de= stination address. ST=C2=A0=C2=A0 .A,/INDIRECT=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ; Store it in target address ho= lder.=C2=A0 ;; STA=C2=A0 INDIRECT LD=C2=A0=C2=A0 .A,(/GOTO + 1)[.X] ; Likewise for second=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; LDA=C2=A0 GOTO=20 + 1,X ST=C2=A0=C2=A0 .A,/INDIRECT + 1=C2=A0=C2=A0 ; byte.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; STA=C2=A0 = INDIRECT+ 1 BR=C2=A0=C2=A0 [/INDIRECT]=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ; Branch= indirectly.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ;; JMP=C2=A0=20 (INDIRECT) From L. Leventhal and W. Saville, 6502 Assembly Language Subroutines, C 1982 The Cygnus/Redhat cgen software generates simulators, assembler (GNU) and disassembles from a guile (scheme) description of the instruction set architecture. Perhaps it could have been enhanced to cope with multiple=20 forms, so the assembler & disassembler could have chosen IEEE or manufacturer=20 style. --===============0168063866034887529==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Tue Jan 23 10:13:25 2024 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FASTBACK Help how to recover files stored in this backup format,? Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 10:13:11 +0000 Message-ID: <1430106755.111490.1706004791654@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1430106755.111490.1706004791654.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0785310858894188839==" --===============0785310858894188839== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FASTBACK bak up ptogrsm...Help how to recover files stored in this backup for= mat,? Back when the museum was next to computer exchange=C2=A0 Inc. Pre '94. We put= out a journal once a year=C2=A0Over 100 pages tightly leaded would like to a= ccess files and reprint. Would need Pagemaker 3 orveoukd data files be upward= compatible with indesign by adob? Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC MUSEUM PROJECT Glendale AZ=C2=A0 Sent from AOL on Android --===============0785310858894188839==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 23 14:57:23 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FASTBACK Help how to recover files stored in this backup format,? Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 05:41:21 -0800 Message-ID: <4459a9f6-f495-4b3a-a5b5-a9b6bcf650f6@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1430106755.111490.1706004791654@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2426033717969657980==" --===============2426033717969657980== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/23/24 02:13, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > FASTBACK bak up ptogrsm...Help how to recover files stored in this backup f= ormat,? > Back when the museum was next to computer exchange=C2=A0 Inc. Pre '94. We p= ut out a journal once a year=C2=A0Over 100 pages tightly leaded would like to= access files and reprint. Would need Pagemaker 3 orveoukd data files be upwa= rd compatible with indesign by adob? > Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC MUSEUM PROJECT Glendale AZ=C2=A0 >=20 > Sent from AOL on Android What version of Fastback? There were two major variations. Initially, Fastback had its own floppy drivers and format. The simplest way to restore from that is to get an XT- or AT-speed system (the program uses programmed delay loops so a fast CPU won't do the job) and the original program (I think I still have it). A subsequent version (Fastback II) used standard BIOS formatting and was more straightforward. Is something wrong with your system? I can barely read the message for all the typos. --Chuck --===============2426033717969657980==-- From gtoal@gtoal.com Tue Jan 23 20:14:00 2024 From: Graham Toal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Can anyone (pref in USA) recover data from an old RK05 disk pack? Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 14:13:39 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2269483033072733429==" --===============2269483033072733429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In 1979, the Dutch team of Harry Whitfield's students writing the Groningen University Time Sharing O/S called GUTS sent an RK05 to Edinburgh for us to try out on a PDP11/60 we had access to in Steven Salter's Wavepower project lab. Ian Young spun it up and learned how to use it. After some years of being out on loan, we hope to have the disk pack returned to us this year, so I'm now looking for someone reliable who can recover very old disk packs, preferably in the USA where we can ship the pack to them, without having to go through customs and risk damage in an inspection (I remember those scary 1970's diagrams showing the comparative size of a smoke particle next to the gap between the heads and the disk surface!). To minimize the risk of damage during shipping, I'm hoping that the person who currently has it can ship it directly to whomever we can find who can read it for us, rather than to me and then to that person. I'll be happy with a raw disk read, but the GUTS file format should be backwards compatible with RT11 files so if the disk is readable I don't think we'll have trouble getting the data off, especially if the person with a pdp11 runs RT11 on it. If we can get a disk image however I think we could get it running again under emulation. Please contact me at gtoal(a)gtoal.com if you know of anyone in the US who might be able to read this disk pack, or contact them and ask them to contact me if they're interested. Thanks, Graham PS We have the 3 GUTS manuals in pdf format, but that's the only GUTS documentation that we know of which survived: https://gtoal.com/history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/red.pdf https://gtoal.com/history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/orange.pdf https://gtoal.com/history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/yellow.pdf --===============2269483033072733429==-- From gtoal@gtoal.com Tue Jan 23 23:39:51 2024 From: Graham Toal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Can anyone (pref in USA) recover data from an old RK05 disk pack? Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 17:39:34 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181249045322A6C62AE8F9BE4742=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5344567305648510418==" --===============5344567305648510418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 3:05 PM Wayne S wrote: > Can’t the pack be read and copied on the system it’s currently on? > It's not been near a computer since 1979. It's currently in Fred van Kempen's storage. Graham --===============5344567305648510418==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 24 10:10:46 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Can anyone (pref in USA) recover data from an old RK05 disk pack? Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 11:10:31 +0100 Message-ID: <1b269aa8-f8e0-12ee-c17e-e03b940a1d@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6478877108962264910==" --===============6478877108962264910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 23 Jan 2024, Graham Toal wrote: > On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 3:05?PM Wayne S wrote: >> Can?t the pack be read and copied on the system it?s currently on? > It's not been near a computer since 1979. It's currently in Fred van > Kempen's storage. And why send it to the US instead of finding someone local in the Netherlands or Europe to read the pack? I mean, there are many people here who can read RK05 packs. Christian --===============6478877108962264910==-- From andrew@carrierdetect.com Wed Jan 24 14:33:45 2024 From: Andrew Back To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB: Keyboard for IBM 3290-1 terminal. Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 14:23:46 +0000 Message-ID: <33221208-f764-4309-88c1-2ddb58b7f1ba@carrierdetect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8242022238378606677==" --===============8242022238378606677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I'm looking for a keyboard to use with an IBM 3290-1 terminal (DB25 connector). IBM part number 6016730 or similar. Regards, Andrew --===============8242022238378606677==-- From david4602@gmail.com Wed Jan 24 19:12:24 2024 From: David Schmidt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: Keyboard for IBM 3290-1 terminal. Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 19:12:19 +0000 Message-ID: <170612353920.4006402.12975984292923106193@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <33221208-f764-4309-88c1-2ddb58b7f1ba@carrierdetect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8460515536930153383==" --===============8460515536930153383== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry I don't have a lead on a keyboard for you, but man, I can still hear th= e beautiful music of those tiger screens updating... - David --===============8460515536930153383==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Wed Jan 24 19:57:42 2024 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM 38 on Facebook Marketplace Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 14:57:22 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9049113653657266735==" --===============9049113653657266735== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know nothing of what they're referring to, but just in case someone is interested: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1033559851065048 -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com --===============9049113653657266735==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Jan 24 20:41:53 2024 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 38 on Facebook Marketplace Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 12:33:35 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0075895928315424092==" --===============0075895928315424092== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Really the only thing I can identify in those photographs is some version of = an IBM 3776 terminal. It=E2=80=99s in Morristown, NJ. The computer itself i= s probably an AS/400 that was originally purchased to replace a System/38 (at= least that=E2=80=99s the only way I see =E2=80=9CIBM 38=E2=80=9D making any = sense). I think that this is an AS/400e 9406 Model 170 Server, from about 1998. Zane > On Jan 24, 2024, at 11:57 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I know nothing of what they're referring to, but just in case someone is > interested: >=20 > https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1033559851065048 >=20 >=20 > -- > Anders Nelson > www.andersknelson.com --===============0075895928315424092==-- From bear@typewritten.org Wed Jan 24 20:50:00 2024 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 38 on Facebook Marketplace Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 12:48:45 -0800 Message-ID: <7A7BE701-8A24-43FF-BE11-501C425705CE@typewritten.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6640341817083901515==" --===============6640341817083901515== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 24, 2024, at 12:33 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I think that this is an AS/400e 9406 Model 170 Server, from about 1998. I concur with this identification. ok bear. --===============6640341817083901515==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Wed Jan 24 20:53:30 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 15:53:12 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2465734569030793632==" --===============2465734569030793632== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Apple Mac, 40 years old, came from Xerox PARC’s GUI and Apple’s LISA. Not sure that it really changed computing though! Financially it didn't help Apple until after 1997 and Gate's investment. Happy computing! Murray 🙂 --===============2465734569030793632==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Jan 24 21:21:31 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 13:21:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5525204654416573229==" --===============5525204654416573229== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 12:53=E2=80=AFPM Murray McCullough via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Apple Mac, 40 years old, came from Xerox PARC=E2=80=99s GUI and Apple= =E2=80=99s LISA. > Not sure that it really changed computing though! Financially it didn't > help Apple until after 1997 and Gate's investment. > I struggle with the whole "birth of the Mac" story. It starts with the "Jobs visit to Parc" story which is often told as if he single handedly made off with Xerox's crown jewels, ignoring the fact that lots of people had been given prior demos of the Smalltalk 76 and 78 systems. Certainly he had the vision to appreciate what he saw and the ability to capitalize on it, but it was hardly the "making off with a secret" it's claimed to be. Then there is the whole "Lisa was a failure story. The Mac (developed at significant cost largely because Jobs felt slighted) launched for I believe $2,495 with a 9" screen, 128k RAM, minimal software and a single tasking OS). At the same time the Lisa 2/5 was released at $3495 with a 12" screen, 512k RAM and a true preemptive multitasking OS. The 128K of the Mac was so limiting that a few months later they had to shortly after launch the Fat Mac (512K) at $2,795 In the mid 90s Mac's were still crippled by the original Mac OS design. Badly behaving apps crashing the entire system was common. Multiple projects to design a replacement had failed. Sure he turned it all around with the Next acquisition and the $2.9 trillion rest is history but I sometimes wonder what would have happened if they'd somehow been able to stop Jobs and instead focus on the Lisa. --===============5525204654416573229==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jan 24 21:55:07 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 13:48:33 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8934969406803516640==" --===============8934969406803516640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 24 Jan 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > The Apple Mac, 40 years old, came from Xerox PARC=E2=80=99s GUI and Apple= =E2=80=99s LISA. > Not sure that it really changed computing though! Financially it didn't > help Apple until after 1997 and Gate's investment. Although they still needed help, the Mac kept the Apple3 and Lisa from=20 destroying the Apple company. Bill Gates' bailout failed to make him a friend to the Apple fan-boys, who=20 hated him even more than the rest of us did. I never hated Bill Gates;=20 when he was still a MILLIONaire, he was kinda cool. We should all,=20 therefore do what we can to make him into a millionaire. The Mac changed a few things. Although not necessarily exclusively, was=20 it the first computer Super Bowl ad? The first computer ad to be ridiculed outside of computing circles; Osborne's "the man on the left doesn't stand a chance" was ridiculed in=20 computer circles ("whose left? ours or theirs?, the guy with the Osborne=20 arrives without the file folders, uninformed of the news, and starving=20 because of no sandwich" (although the open space in the front of the=20 Osborne could hold a small sandwich). Otrona's Charlie Chaplin look-alike struggling down stairs with a PC on a=20 card table was unknown outside of computing circles, at least until IBM=20 claimed trademark of Charlie chaplin's "little tramp" character. But ridicule, such as Futurama's "Hey! We were watching that!" reached=20 all aspects of society. The Mac, although still rather expensive, brought the Lisa's technology=20 within reach of others than executives showing off to other executives. The Mac brought the mouse out of being obscure and esoteric, and brought=20 aspects of the content of The Mother Of All Demos into popularity to the=20 public. It made many people, including some of us, realize that your computer=20 could cost half as much if you were willing to wield a screwdriver, and=20 install parts. The Mac provided one of the very few alternatives to PC. In august 1981. many of us said, "In a few years, all computers will be=20 IBM PC, or imitations thereof.", the Mac helped give the PC an image of=20 not being a monopoly. And it became "PC plus imitations thereof, and a=20 minority of Mac and all others." [Sorry, but few other than us=20 appreciated CP/M, or even Unix] Android has brought a third player into the fray. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8934969406803516640==-- From davida@pobox.com Wed Jan 24 22:03:10 2024 From: David Arnold To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 08:56:17 +1100 Message-ID: <003C0BF6-10BC-45FB-AB45-867CD0257A21@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0772876703868056024==" --===============0772876703868056024== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 25 Jan 2024, at 08:21, Tony Jones via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 12:53=E2=80=AFPM Murray McCullough via cct= alk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> The Apple Mac, 40 years old, came from Xerox PARC=E2=80=99s GUI and Apple= =E2=80=99s LISA. >> Not sure that it really changed computing though! Financially it didn't >> help Apple until after 1997 and Gate's investment. >>=20 >=20 > I struggle with the whole "birth of the Mac" story. >=20 > It starts with the "Jobs visit to Parc" story which is often told as if he > single handedly made off with Xerox's crown jewels, ignoring the fact that > lots of people had been given prior demos of the Smalltalk 76 and 78 > systems. Certainly he had the vision to appreciate what he saw and the > ability to capitalize on it, but it was hardly the "making off with a > secret" it's claimed to be. Agreed. > Then there is the whole "Lisa was a failure story. Lisa had several issues that hampered its success, in my view: The price was too high, relatively.=20 The twiggy drives were unreliable, and it really needed a hard drive, which w= as additional cost on top of the already high base cost. The screen pixels were rectangular. It mightn=E2=80=99t seem like a big deal= , but if you=E2=80=99re a software developer choosing between Lisa and Mac, i= t=E2=80=99s a factor.=20 > The Mac (developed at significant cost largely because Jobs felt slighted) > launched for I believe $2,495 with a 9" screen, 128k RAM, minimal software > and a single tasking OS). > At the same time the Lisa 2/5 was released at $3495 with a 12" screen, 512k > RAM and a true preemptive multitasking OS. I think the advantages of the Lisa OS were largely invisible to purchasers at= the time. It wasn=E2=80=99t something we=E2=80=99d been trained (by Apple DO= S, or CP/M, or MS-DOS) to consider. Perhaps for those with experience using = a =E2=80=9Cproper=E2=80=9D OS it might have been a factor? I don=E2=80=99t recall it being really highlighted by Apple, either. I imagin= e the hand of Jobs in that, making sure marketing didn=E2=80=99t hurt the Mac= .=20 > The 128K of the Mac was so limiting that a few months later they had to > shortly after launch the Fat Mac (512K) at $2,795 >=20 > In the mid 90s Mac's were still crippled by the original Mac OS design. > Badly behaving apps crashing the entire system was common. Multiple > projects to design a replacement had failed. Ultimately the =E2=80=9CBlue Box=E2=80=9D environment for OSX kinda solved th= is problem, emulating aMacOS Classic environment inside Unix processes.=20 But Jobs wasn=E2=80=99t a software engineer, and this was an engineering issu= e. > Sure he turned it all around with the Next acquisition and the $2.9 > trillion rest is history but I sometimes wonder what would have happened if > they'd somehow been able to stop Jobs and instead focus on the Lisa. Without the Lisa, the Mac would have been perceived as =E2=80=9Ctoo expensive= =E2=80=9D. As it was, if you wanted the GUI-style system, a Mac was the cheap= (er) option.=20 I think the Mac would have tanked without this in the first year or so. d --===============0772876703868056024==-- From dillera@dillernet.com Wed Jan 24 22:04:09 2024 From: Andrew Diller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 17:04:04 -0500 Message-ID: <0CA369E0-1F75-4A49-A42A-B741A31E7B9A@dillernet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0794117577413511788==" --===============0794117577413511788== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think now anyone that wants to look a bit more closely has a much better id= ea and context about what caused the Birth of the Mac. That story of "stolen = from PARC" IMHO is just weak writing back when the Internet didn't have the i= nfo it has today which gives full context over what was going on. And many pe= ople have told a much more rich and (I hope) accurate telling of the story. The Mac sure made an impact on me and I've never looked back or wanted to use= any other computing system (for my real computer) since then. -andy > On Jan 24, 2024, at 4:21 PM, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 12:53=E2=80=AFPM Murray McCullough via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> The Apple Mac, 40 years old, came from Xerox PARC=E2=80=99s GUI and Apple= =E2=80=99s LISA. >> Not sure that it really changed computing though! Financially it didn't >> help Apple until after 1997 and Gate's investment. >>=20 >=20 > I struggle with the whole "birth of the Mac" story. >=20 > It starts with the "Jobs visit to Parc" story which is often told as if he > single handedly made off with Xerox's crown jewels, ignoring the fact that > lots of people had been given prior demos of the Smalltalk 76 and 78 > systems. Certainly he had the vision to appreciate what he saw and the > ability to capitalize on it, but it was hardly the "making off with a > secret" it's claimed to be. >=20 > Then there is the whole "Lisa was a failure story. >=20 > The Mac (developed at significant cost largely because Jobs felt slighted) > launched for I believe $2,495 with a 9" screen, 128k RAM, minimal software > and a single tasking OS). > At the same time the Lisa 2/5 was released at $3495 with a 12" screen, 512k > RAM and a true preemptive multitasking OS. >=20 > The 128K of the Mac was so limiting that a few months later they had to > shortly after launch the Fat Mac (512K) at $2,795 >=20 > In the mid 90s Mac's were still crippled by the original Mac OS design. > Badly behaving apps crashing the entire system was common. Multiple > projects to design a replacement had failed. >=20 > Sure he turned it all around with the Next acquisition and the $2.9 > trillion rest is history but I sometimes wonder what would have happened if > they'd somehow been able to stop Jobs and instead focus on the Lisa. --===============0794117577413511788==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jan 24 22:16:40 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 14:16:24 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0CA369E0-1F75-4A49-A42A-B741A31E7B9A@dillernet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6191415765377126215==" --===============6191415765377126215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 2:04 PM Andrew Diller via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I think now anyone that wants to look a bit more closely has a much better > idea and context about what caused the Birth of the Mac. That story of > "stolen from PARC" IMHO is just weak writing back when the Internet didn't > have the info it has today which gives full context over what was going on. > And many people have told a much more rich and (I hope) accurate telling of > the story. > > The Mac sure made an impact on me and I've never looked back or wanted to > use any other computing system (for my real computer) since then. > > -andy > I read a narrative more recently that more accurately depicted the actual events. I wish I could remember any details about it, otherwise I would link it up so others could read it. But basically, Jobs never stole anything. He was pretty much invited to take a look, and then entered into some sort of exclusivity deal (I may be wrong about this detail) to use Xerox tech. Xerox upper execs didn't see a market in this kind of hardware; copiers were their game, so they didn't get what they had, and didn't care. If anything, Apple should be thanked for taking what would have been deadend technology at Xerox and making a product with it. Basically. Sellam --===============6191415765377126215==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Jan 24 22:16:57 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 14:16:40 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0CA369E0-1F75-4A49-A42A-B741A31E7B9A@dillernet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5713714803463935023==" --===============5713714803463935023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 2:04=E2=80=AFPM Andrew Diller wrote: > I think now anyone that wants to look a bit more closely > Hardly a unique situation. Often the story that persists in the mainstream isn't the most accurate. --===============5713714803463935023==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Jan 24 22:23:14 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 14:22:58 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7974862284948580652==" --===============7974862284948580652== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 2:16 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > But basically, Jobs never stole anything. He was pretty much invited to > take a look, and then entered into some sort of exclusivity deal (I may be > wrong about this detail) to use Xerox tech. Xerox upper execs didn't see a > market in this kind of hardware; copiers were their game, so they didn't > get what they had, and didn't care. If anything, Apple should be thanked > for taking what would have been deadend technology at Xerox and making a > product with it. Basically. > This isn't the story told by Adele Goldberg. Jobs was invited for sure. I believe the finance side of Xerox wanted to invest in Apple. It's not clear what Jobs was shown initially but he knew it wasn't everything (because, drumroll, others had seen more). He pushed and was shown more. Was Jobs considered special by Goldberg? Possibly. This was the era where people were starting to leave Parc, disillusioned. "Spreading the PARC RNA" is, I believe, how Simonyi? described it. It is possible Goldberg was already thinking about Parcplace and saw the risk of showing too much to Jobs? --===============7974862284948580652==-- From kiwi_jonathan@yahoo.com Wed Jan 24 22:43:09 2024 From: Jonathan Stone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 22:42:59 +0000 Message-ID: <1360942074.551179.1706136179355@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2454486826848413987==" --===============2454486826848413987== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 On Wednesday, January 24, 2024 at 02:16:44 PM PST, Sellam Abraham via cctalk = wrote: [...] > But basically, Jobs never stole anything.=C2=A0 He was pretty much invited = to > take a look, and then entered into some sort of exclusivity deal (I may be > wrong about this detail) to use Xerox tech.=C2=A0 Xerox upper execs didn't = see a > market in this kind of hardware; copiers were their game, so they didn't > get what they had, and didn't care.=C2=A0 If anything, Apple should be than= ked > for taking what would have been deadend technology at Xerox and making a > product with it.=C2=A0 Basically. Not exactly. Xerox *did* have products based on the D-machines (DandeLion, Da= ndeTiger, etc). They were a commercial failure. Allegedly (from a Lisp-machine user at the ti= me) at least in part because the Xerox sales force only knew how to sell devi= ces that had a toner hooper. Wikipedia on the Daybreak (last D*-machine) says they were used extensively w= ithi Xerox until replaced by PCs r Sun workstations. =20 --===============2454486826848413987==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jan 24 23:58:15 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 18:58:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1360942074.551179.1706136179355@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8001699401830400252==" --===============8001699401830400252== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You all should check out David Greelish's new documentary on the Mac. It just came out today or it just about to be released. We should all support our fellow vintage computer historians, I know he put a lot of time into it. David has been writing about the Mac's significance before Wikipedia even existed Bill On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 5:43 PM Jonathan Stone via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Wednesday, January 24, 2024 at 02:16:44 PM PST, Sellam Abraham via > cctalk wrote: > > [...] > > > But basically, Jobs never stole anything. He was pretty much invited to > > take a look, and then entered into some sort of exclusivity deal (I may > be > > wrong about this detail) to use Xerox tech. Xerox upper execs didn't > see a > > market in this kind of hardware; copiers were their game, so they didn't > > get what they had, and didn't care. If anything, Apple should be thanked > > for taking what would have been deadend technology at Xerox and making a > > product with it. Basically. > > Not exactly. Xerox *did* have products based on the D-machines (DandeLion, > DandeTiger, etc). > They were a commercial failure. Allegedly (from a Lisp-machine user at the > time) at least in part because the Xerox sales force only knew how to sell > devices that had a toner hooper. > > Wikipedia on the Daybreak (last D*-machine) says they were used > extensively withi Xerox until replaced by PCs r Sun workstations. > > > > --===============8001699401830400252==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Thu Jan 25 00:09:27 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 16:09:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3110612997457342594==" --===============3110612997457342594== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 3:58 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > You all should check out David Greelish's new documentary on the Mac. > Sounds good except it's not about the Mac. It's called "Before Macintosh: The Apple Lisa documentary" It just happens to be (finally) getting released on the Mac's 40th anniversary. --===============3110612997457342594==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jan 25 00:12:34 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 19:12:18 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6202588029337697961==" --===============6202588029337697961== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LoL oops. Strike my comment! On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 7:09 PM Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 3:58 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > You all should check out David Greelish's new documentary on the Mac. > > > > Sounds good except it's not about the Mac. It's called "Before Macintosh: > The Apple Lisa documentary" > > It just happens to be (finally) getting released on the Mac's 40th > anniversary. > --===============6202588029337697961==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Thu Jan 25 00:48:01 2024 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 19:47:45 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6093143093122245295==" --===============6093143093122245295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I know a great deal of writings by techno-historians, computer-industry experts and technology enthusiasts concerning the Apple Mac, and now 40 years old, have covered this topic both on and off the net. Unlike originally stated I now feel that the MAC was an important change agent in regards to the all-in-one computer landscape. Why Apple priced it ‘prohibitively’ high, particularly so here in Canada, I’m not sure. Arguments such as an integrated ecosystem to securing a marketing and brand loyalty come to mind. Certainly applies to the world of Apple doesn't it! What I remember most from that time though was their 1984 Super Bowl commercial! It went a long way to putting Apple and the microcomputer industry on the mass-consumer market. Murray 😊 On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:12 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > LoL oops. Strike my comment! > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 7:09 PM Tony Jones via cctalk > > wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 3:58 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > You all should check out David Greelish's new documentary on the Mac. > > > > > > > Sounds good except it's not about the Mac. It's called "Before > Macintosh: > > The Apple Lisa documentary" > > > > It just happens to be (finally) getting released on the Mac's 40th > > anniversary. > > > --===============6093143093122245295==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 25 01:16:05 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 17:15:53 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0737315255502268891==" --===============0737315255502268891== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, if you compare a complete Mac, with a complete PC, including comparable hardware and software, they actually came out close to even! BUT, if you compare a complete Mac with an absolutley bare 5150PC, and shop for reasonable prices on RAM, drives, monitor, etc., with shareware software and/or packages for which you might be eligible under sifte licenses, then the PC comes out substantially cheaper. I wanted word processor, spreadsheet, Assembler, anda few compilers; those cost an amazing amount less from third party vendors for what I wanted compared to the "package" that IBM wanted to bundle. And, if you consider a generic XT clone, such as VIPC, etc., then the PC is WAY cheaper. I heard (another unsubstantiated story), that the engineers were tasked to make the Mac a $500 computer; but when done, Apple chose to charge more than that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Wed, 24 Jan 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I know a great deal of writings by techno-historians, computer-industry > experts and technology enthusiasts concerning the Apple Mac, and now 40 > years old, have covered this topic both on and off the net. Unlike > originally stated I now feel that the MAC was an important change agent in > regards to the all-in-one computer landscape. Why Apple priced it > ‘prohibitively’ high, particularly so here in Canada, I’m not sure. > Arguments such as an integrated ecosystem to securing a marketing and brand > loyalty come to mind. Certainly applies to the world of Apple doesn't it! > What I remember most from that time though was their 1984 Super Bowl > commercial! It went a long way to putting Apple and the microcomputer > industry on the mass-consumer market. > > Murray 😊 --===============0737315255502268891==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Thu Jan 25 01:29:09 2024 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Mac at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 16:08:53 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9039951662650107954==" --===============9039951662650107954== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apple didn't "steal" anything because Xerox received a tranche of pre-IPO App= le shares in exchange for allowing SJ and his folks to visit PARC for a bunch= of demos and do whatever they wanted with what they saw. Nowadays you can also try out systems like Smalltalk-78, Xerox ViewPoint, etc= . as well as the original Lisa and Macintosh systems in emulation -- and read= papers like "Inventing the Lisa Human Interface," published in ACM Interacti= ons 27 years ago -- to see just how different what SJ and his people saw at X= erox was from what Apple shipped in the Lisa and Macintosh 4-5 years after th= e visit. - The top-of-screen menu bar was an Apple invention. - Atkinson's "region" data structure to allow windows to update when partiall= y obscured was an Apple invention. - Open/Save file dialogs were an Apple invention for Macintosh, because with = 128KB of RAM it couldn't run both Finder and an application and thus couldn't= use Lisa's "stationery pad" concept. I can't believe people still don't have a solid grasp of these things after 4= 0 years of both journalism and academia covering them in rather exhaustive de= tail. -- Chris --===============9039951662650107954==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Thu Jan 25 02:04:27 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Mac at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 18:04:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8360322614007350013==" --===============8360322614007350013== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 5:29 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Apple didn't "steal" anything because > ..... > I can't believe people still don't have a solid grasp of these things after > 40 years of both journalism and academia covering them in rather exhaustive > detail. > People likely don't have the solid grasp you feel they should because it's probably not that important to them. Hence some of the myth's live on. No-one mentioned "steal"ing in this thread AFAICT until now so I assume you're talking in the general population sense rather than members of this list. Also it's pretty subjective what "steal" means. Hertzfeld when asked took a very literal view "literally no code was taken, I mean not a single line of code". By that definition I doubt Microsoft took a line of code from Apple either but it didn't stop Apple suing them for copyright infringement :-) I think Atkinson is on record as saying the Goldberg demo was just a confirmation (for him) that a more graphical approach was the way forward. I believe until then the Lisa project had been text based. I would not be the slightest bit surprised to find out that Atkinson had already seen demo's of Smalltalk 76 or 78. I get the impression PARC people smuggled outsiders in late at night to see what they were working on.. It really was all about getting Jobs on the same page. --===============8360322614007350013==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jan 25 02:27:44 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Mac at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 21:27:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6933868357321177259==" --===============6933868357321177259== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Greelish's upcoming documentary has interviews of the people involved with the original project, and the subject of Xerox and all that is pretty well covered. I got a preview of the documentary, wait for it to come out.....my Lisa is at 1hr13 mins in...This is an important documentary because it is thoroughly researched and we can all stop copy and pasting from wikipedia to act like we know what we're talking about. b On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 9:04=E2=80=AFPM Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 5:29=E2=80=AFPM Chris Hanson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Apple didn't "steal" anything because > > ..... > > > I can't believe people still don't have a solid grasp of these things after > > 40 years of both journalism and academia covering them in rather > exhaustive > > detail. > > > > People likely don't have the solid grasp you feel they should because it's > probably not that important to them. Hence some of the myth's live on. > > No-one mentioned "steal"ing in this thread AFAICT until now so I assume > you're talking in the general population sense rather than members of this > list. Also it's pretty subjective what "steal" means. Hertzfeld when > asked took a very literal view "literally no code was taken, I mean not a > single line of code". By that definition I doubt Microsoft took a line of > code from Apple either but it didn't stop Apple suing them for copyright > infringement :-) > > I think Atkinson is on record as saying the Goldberg demo was just a > confirmation (for him) that a more graphical approach was the way forward. > I believe until then the Lisa project had been text based. I would not be > the slightest bit surprised to find out that Atkinson had already seen > demo's of Smalltalk 76 or 78. I get the impression PARC people smuggled > outsiders in late at night to see what they were working on.. It really > was all about getting Jobs on the same page. > --===============6933868357321177259==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 25 03:07:09 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Mac at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 19:06:59 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6452563409045638037==" --===============6452563409045638037== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit and, of course, with anything that people caan get too close to, you will get "blind men and the elephant" discrepancies between any two accounts of the event. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6452563409045638037==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Thu Jan 25 03:33:00 2024 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Mac at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 19:32:44 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1654264521267977942==" --===============1654264521267977942== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 6:27 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: and we can all stop copy and pastin from wikipedia to act like we know what > we're talking about. > You keep saying this. Why? It's rather childish. Most of my knowledge comes from personal interest (I wrote a Smalltalk VM in the late 80's), from reading books like Dealers Of Lightning and from various interviews I've watched over the years. --===============1654264521267977942==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 25 03:56:51 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Mac at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 19:56:46 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8362334141261284363==" --===============8362334141261284363== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > and we can all stop copy and pastin from wikipedia to act like we know what >> we're talking about. On Wed, 24 Jan 2024, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > You keep saying this. Why? It's rather childish. Most of my knowledge > comes from personal interest (I wrote a Smalltalk VM in the late 80's), > from reading books like Dealers Of Lightning and from various interviews > I've watched over the years. Besides, most of us had solidified our wrong perspectives and incorrect beliefs and assumptiond long before Wikipedia came along. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8362334141261284363==-- From jrr@flippers.com Thu Jan 25 06:36:41 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for 1970s OAK keyboard switches... Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 12:52:06 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0386490534094347540==" --===============0386490534094347540== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been hunting for a while now for OAK PCB mount keyboard switches that I can't find a part number for. I've attached a product listing for the switch that shows it pretty well. DPST-NO preferred. Only $0.40 in the early '70s! Any quantity considered... Thanks! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============0386490534094347540==-- From paulhagstrom@me.com Thu Jan 25 06:36:46 2024 From: Paul Hagstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 19:19:29 -0500 Message-ID: <77E20A3B-5749-491E-A3CB-051D3A70CD90@me.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7663987173260069765==" --===============7663987173260069765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 24, 2024, at 7:12 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > LoL oops. Strike my comment! Maybe leave unstruck this part though! > We should all support > our fellow vintage computer historians, I know he put a lot of time into > it.=20 I've seen parts of the documentary already, and it's very interesting, he's g= ot some good interviews in there and he's poured his heart into making this. = I'm impressed with what I've seen so far, and I'm looking forward to watchin= g the rest. Definitely worth checking it out! Even if it IS about the Lisa = and not the Mac. :D -Paul > On Jan 24, 2024, at 7:12 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > LoL oops. Strike my comment! >=20 > On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 7:09 PM Tony Jones via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 3:58=E2=80=AFPM Bill Degnan via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >>> You all should check out David Greelish's new documentary on the Mac. >>>=20 >>=20 >> Sounds good except it's not about the Mac. It's called "Before Macintosh: >> The Apple Lisa documentary" >>=20 >> It just happens to be (finally) getting released on the Mac's 40th >> anniversary. >>=20 --===============7663987173260069765==-- From jrr@flippers.com Thu Jan 25 06:50:37 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for (WTB:) 1970s OAK keyboard switches... Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 22:50:25 -0800 Message-ID: <2b424204-4760-47ae-8c85-e5d867e3d90a@flippers.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3985434479666796246==" --===============3985434479666796246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2024/01/24 12:52 p.m., John Robertson via cctalk wrote: > I've been hunting for a while now for OAK PCB mount keyboard switches > that I can't find a part number for. I've attached a product listing > for the switch that shows it pretty well. DPST-NO preferred. > > Only $0.40 in the early '70s! > > Any quantity considered... > > Thanks! > > John :-#)# > I see attachments aren't permitted, even on of only 70k. When did that stop - going back in my archives I see messages from the early 2000s that had small attachments. Oh well, I'll make some links: https://www.flippers.com/images/Misc/OAK_Pushbutton_Switch-1973.jpg https://www.flippers.com/images/Misc/OAK_MysterySwitchAd.png Anyone seen any of these? They were used in the first Computer Space games...(so on topic - ducking!) Thanks! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============3985434479666796246==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jan 25 14:28:35 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for 1970s OAK keyboard switches... Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 09:28:27 -0500 Message-ID: <00694C53-1D2C-4936-8E1D-6F9CA121BE6D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0660503521750650487==" --===============0660503521750650487== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 24, 2024, at 3:52 PM, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I've been hunting for a while now for OAK PCB mount keyboard switches that = I can't find a part number for. I've attached a product listing for the switc= h that shows it pretty well. DPST-NO preferred. >=20 > Only $0.40 in the early '70s! I don't know about Oak, but I remember that Cherry switches were still availa= ble (new) fairly recently. A friend of mine used them to build replica PLATO= keyboards -- using the same switches that were in the original. paul --===============0660503521750650487==-- From jrr@flippers.com Thu Jan 25 17:33:05 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for 1970s OAK keyboard switches... Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 09:32:55 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00694C53-1D2C-4936-8E1D-6F9CA121BE6D@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7420948466137985553==" --===============7420948466137985553== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024/01/25 6:28 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jan 24, 2024, at 3:52 PM, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: >> >> I've been hunting for a while now for OAK PCB mount keyboard switches that= I can't find a part number for. I've attached a product listing for the swit= ch that shows it pretty well. DPST-NO preferred. >> >> Only $0.40 in the early '70s! > I don't know about Oak, but I remember that Cherry switches were still avai= lable (new) fairly recently. A friend of mine used them to build replica PLA= TO keyboards -- using the same switches that were in the original. > > paul > Cherry switches are quite different in size and mount from the ones I'm=20 looking for unfortunately. John :-#(# --===============7420948466137985553==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Thu Jan 25 19:22:14 2024 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:13:44 -0800 Message-ID: <004101da4fc2$a072f8b0$e158ea10$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4945004733280808910==" --===============4945004733280808910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Abraham =20 Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 2:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: [cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40 =20 On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 2:04 PM Andrew Diller via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: =20 That=20 > story of "stolen from PARC" IMHO is just weak writing back when the=20 > Internet didn't have the info it has today which gives full context over wh= at was going on. =20 I read a narrative more recently that more accurately depicted the actual eve= nts. I wish I could remember any details about it, otherwise I would link it= up so others could read it. =20 But basically, Jobs never stole anything. He was pretty much invited to take= a look, and then entered into some sort of exclusivity deal (I may be wrong = about this detail) to use Xerox tech. Xerox upper execs didn't see a market = in this kind of hardware; copiers were their game, so they didn't get what th= ey had, and didn't care. If anything, Apple should be thanked for taking wha= t would have been deadend technology at Xerox and making a product with it. = Basically. =20 Sellam Xerox was a pre-IPO investor in Apple and Xerox Development Corp (XDC) is rep= orted to have granted Jobs visits to PARC in December 1979. Jes Raskin claim= s to have also facilitated at least one visit after the investment. =20 What is not well known is Jobs had a visit to PARC prior to the Xerox investm= ent which was conducted by the President of Shugart Corporation, then a subsi= diary of Xerox. Jobs had offered pre-IPO stock to the Shugart executives, bu= t when they requested advice from XDC as to whether it was OK, XDC took on th= e investment. Apple was then Shugart=E2=80=99s largest customer and needing= to kill some time before a meeting Shugart=E2=80=99s President, Don Massaro,= took Jobs thru PARC where Jobs purportedly first viewed the various technolo= gies. It is lost to history what sort of disclosure agreements existed at th= at time between Apple and Shugart Corp. =20 Tom --===============4945004733280808910==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jan 25 19:45:04 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:44:45 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7079936976607580626==" --===============7079936976607580626== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll be attending VCF SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in the capacity of a presenter (on a panel and a solo presentation). Is anyone else planning to attend the event? Sellam --===============7079936976607580626==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Jan 25 19:47:20 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:47:13 -0800 Message-ID: <0MHmzz-1rWf8A2EBx-003gnD@mrelay.perfora.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2047639876150362631==" --===============2047639876150362631== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First time I am hearing of this. Are details up on the vcf site?-Ali -------- Original message --------From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk Date: 1/25/24 11:45 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: = On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] VCF SoCal I'll be attending VCF S= oCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in thecapacity of a presenter (= on a panel and a solo presentation).Is anyone else planning to attend the eve= nt?Sellam --===============2047639876150362631==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jan 25 20:03:00 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:02:44 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0MHmzz-1rWf8A2EBx-003gnD@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6132903180867865082==" --===============6132903180867865082== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Forgive me, I should not have assumed everyone already knew about it. February 17-18 at the Hotel Fera Event Center in Orange, California. https://www.vcfsocal.com/ Sellam On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:47 AM Ali via cctalk wrote: > First time I am hearing of this. Are details up on the vcf site?-Ali > -------- Original message --------From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 1/25/24 11:45 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: > Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] VCF SoCal I'll > be attending VCF SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in > thecapacity of a presenter (on a panel and a solo presentation).Is anyone > else planning to attend the event?Sellam --===============6132903180867865082==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 25 21:33:10 2024 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:32:51 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3000620658564623182==" --===============3000620658564623182== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> First time I am hearing of this. Are details up on the vcf site?-Ali On Thu, 25 Jan 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Forgive me, I should not have assumed everyone already knew about it. > February 17-18 at the Hotel Fera Event Center in Orange, California. > https://www.vcfsocal.com/ California VCF's tend to not be announced here! Last august, I missed VCF West, because I didn't hear about it in time. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3000620658564623182==-- From Michael@jongleur.co.uk Thu Jan 25 21:37:42 2024 From: Michael Mulhern To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2024 08:37:23 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1814907398611951233==" --===============1814907398611951233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a denizen of the antipodes I=E2=80=99ve heard about VCFSoCal, but maybe I= =E2=80=99m more into the socials. Maybe VCF(etal) should be also sending notifications through email lists and boards. Hoping anyone local(ish) to VCFSoCal can get there and have a great time. M. On Fri, 26 Jan 2024 at 8:33=E2=80=AFam, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> First time I am hearing of this. Are details up on the vcf site?-Ali > > On Thu, 25 Jan 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Forgive me, I should not have assumed everyone already knew about it. > > February 17-18 at the Hotel Fera Event Center in Orange, California. > > https://www.vcfsocal.com/ > > California VCF's tend to not be announced here! > > Last august, I missed VCF West, because I didn't hear about it in time. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============1814907398611951233==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jan 25 21:44:46 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:44:28 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1978973982819555552==" --===============1978973982819555552== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:37=E2=80=AFPM Michael Mulhern via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > As a denizen of the antipodes I=E2=80=99ve heard about VCFSoCal, but maybe = I=E2=80=99m more > into the socials. > > Maybe VCF(etal) should be also sending notifications through email lists > and boards. > I agree, they should. > Hoping anyone local(ish) to VCFSoCal can get there and have a great time. > > M. > Sellam --===============1978973982819555552==-- From dillera@dillernet.com Fri Jan 26 07:30:51 2024 From: Andrew Diller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:06:24 -0500 Message-ID: <4ACA52EA-1295-43D4-81EB-5849D4FAFC11@dillernet.com> In-Reply-To: <0MHmzz-1rWf8A2EBx-003gnD@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1560646306926533721==" --===============1560646306926533721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hope this helps, I put it together to keep track of them all. -andy > On Jan 25, 2024, at 2:47 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >=20 > First time I am hearing of this. Are details up on the vcf site?-Ali > -------- Original message --------From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk Date: 1/25/24 11:45 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion= : On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Sellam Abraham = Subject: [cctalk] VCF SoCal I'll be attending VCF= SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in thecapacity of a presenter= (on a panel and a solo presentation).Is anyone else planning to attend the e= vent?Sellam --===============1560646306926533721==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jan 26 09:15:10 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2024 01:14:53 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4ACA52EA-1295-43D4-81EB-5849D4FAFC11@dillernet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7462703183306212839==" --===============7462703183306212839== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ??? On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:30 PM Andrew Diller via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Hope this helps, I put it together to keep track of them all. > > -andy > > > > On Jan 25, 2024, at 2:47 PM, Ali via cctalk > wrote: > > > > First time I am hearing of this. Are details up on the vcf site?-Ali > > -------- Original message --------From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 1/25/24 11:45 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: > Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] VCF SoCal I'll > be attending VCF SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in > thecapacity of a presenter (on a panel and a solo presentation).Is anyone > else planning to attend the event?Sellam > > --===============7462703183306212839==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Jan 26 14:00:35 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Mac at 40 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2024 14:00:16 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3759900132460941951==" --===============3759900132460941951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 at 03:56, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Besides, most of us had solidified our wrong perspectives and incorrect > beliefs and assumptiond long before Wikipedia came along. Ha! Excellent. Well said. As it happens I'm trying to do a quick retrospective for El Reg right now, focussing on myth busting. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3759900132460941951==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Jan 26 14:06:08 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2024 14:05:53 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4ACA52EA-1295-43D4-81EB-5849D4FAFC11@dillernet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1993304429334690435==" --===============1993304429334690435== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 26 Jan 2024 at 07:30, Andrew Diller via cctalk wrote: > > Hope this helps, I put it together to keep track of them all. I think you forgot something. There was no link or anything there, and the list doesn't allow attachments. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1993304429334690435==-- From dillera@dillernet.com Fri Jan 26 15:05:49 2024 From: Andrew Diller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2024 10:05:44 -0500 Message-ID: <58E4F16C-3ABC-4F9B-81BD-3FA44F258AC1@dillernet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6525192034388769047==" --===============6525192034388769047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, good point! This is what I was talking about a little poster of shows th= is year: https://envs.sh/Fc7.png -andy diller > On Jan 26, 2024, at 9:05 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 26 Jan 2024 at 07:30, Andrew Diller via cctalk > wrote: >>=20 >> Hope this helps, I put it together to keep track of them all. >=20 > I think you forgot something. >=20 > There was no link or anything there, and the list doesn't allow attachments. >=20 > --=20 > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6525192034388769047==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Mon Jan 29 02:47:22 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 20:41:52 -0600 Message-ID: <2141d2f8-a945-420a-8924-000d847315d1@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1222273886361461657==" --===============1222273886361461657== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/25/24 15:44, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:37=E2=80=AFPM Michael Mulhern via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> As a denizen of the antipodes I=E2=80=99ve heard about VCFSoCal, but maybe= I=E2=80=99m more >> into the socials. >> >> Maybe VCF(etal) should be also sending notifications through email lists >> and boards. >> > I agree, they should. I've seen little mention of it on their discord.=C2=A0 I am not on the vcfed = site much.=C2=A0 might be more action somewhere there. a bit more mention on the cctalk (classsicmp) discord than vcf. thanks Jim > > >> Hoping anyone local(ish) to VCFSoCal can get there and have a great time. >> >> M. >> > Sellam --===============1222273886361461657==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Mon Jan 29 02:47:26 2024 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 20:39:56 -0600 Message-ID: <3bf966c6-9c1f-446d-814c-4e5385cc5e3d@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1681430038093434180==" --===============1681430038093434180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 1000 feet from where I lived in Anaheim.  needed this a few years ago, I would have helped any way I could.  Have fun. If you find the prices at the former Doubletree a bit much, there are probably lots of cheap deals near Mouse Central, just 1 1/2 miles north.  I recommend it if you haven't been, even though it's horribly expensive.  One downside, the Haunted Mansion is closed for a rebuild. Thanks Jim On 1/25/24 13:44, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I'll be attending VCF SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in the > capacity of a presenter (on a panel and a solo presentation). > > Is anyone else planning to attend the event? > > Sellam --===============1681430038093434180==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 29 03:45:19 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 19:44:47 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3bf966c6-9c1f-446d-814c-4e5385cc5e3d@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7906457468826597420==" --===============7906457468826597420== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wow, bummer. I'm staying with my sister in Upland so I'll be fine budget wise. Thanks. Sellam On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 6:47 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > 1000 feet from where I lived in Anaheim. needed this a few years ago, I > would have helped any way I could. Have fun. > > If you find the prices at the former Doubletree a bit much, there are > probably lots of cheap deals near Mouse Central, just 1 1/2 miles > north. I recommend it if you haven't been, even though it's horribly > expensive. One downside, the Haunted Mansion is closed for a rebuild. > > Thanks > Jim > > On 1/25/24 13:44, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > I'll be attending VCF SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in > the > > capacity of a presenter (on a panel and a solo presentation). > > > > Is anyone else planning to attend the event? > > > > Sellam > > --===============7906457468826597420==-- From useddec@gmail.com Mon Jan 29 04:37:54 2024 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 11/15, 11/20 systems and parts, more Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 22:37:38 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3777149281519321699==" --===============3777149281519321699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A quick update: The seller and I have not been able to reach a deal on any of this. He is looking for ebay or higher prices, and nothing is complete. It appears it is bits and pieces leftover from scrapping years ago. Thanks, Paul On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 8:56 PM Paul Anderson wrote: > I am working on a deal which includes several PDP11/15 or 20s. I will be > looking at them next week and hope to get more details. I will look for > exact model numbers and configuration.At least 2 of them have non DEC > silkscreens on the front panel. > > Also a selection of 11/05 and 11/10 including 5 1/4 box, BA11-D, and > BA11-K units. > > If you are interested in a box or parts please email me off list. > > Thanks, Paul > --===============3777149281519321699==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Mon Jan 29 06:06:35 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 11/15, 11/20 systems and parts, more Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 01:09:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4991458361671841802==" --===============4991458361671841802== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The RICM got a complete 11/20 donation a few weeks ago, so we no longer need parts to complete the empty chassis. On Sun, Jan 28, 2024, 11:37 PM Paul Anderson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > A quick update: The seller and I have not been able to reach a deal on any > of this. He is looking for ebay or higher prices, and nothing is complete. > It appears it is bits and pieces leftover from scrapping years ago. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 8:56 PM Paul Anderson wrote: > > > I am working on a deal which includes several PDP11/15 or 20s. I will be > > looking at them next week and hope to get more details. I will look for > > exact model numbers and configuration.At least 2 of them have non DEC > > silkscreens on the front panel. > > > > Also a selection of 11/05 and 11/10 including 5 1/4 box, BA11-D, and > > BA11-K units. > > > > If you are interested in a box or parts please email me off list. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > --===============4991458361671841802==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Mon Jan 29 16:41:19 2024 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:40:30 -0500 Message-ID: <0edb01da52d1$e0fb9ec0$a2f2dc40$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <0edb01da52d1$e0fb9ec0$a2f2dc40$.ref@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0721740959367721405==" --===============0721740959367721405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quick note on ADM3a screen rot... my vintage collection resides in a cool (60-72 degrees F) dry basement. My "pride and joy" ADM3a (I have several) was just starting to show a few bubbles at the corners last September. I was pulling out some parts units on Friday and noticed that one had a much better screen than I remembered. Thinking that I might swap screens, I took a close look at "PnJ" and discovered to my horror that most of the lower half of the screen had "melted". "PnJ" was on a shelf, below eye level, nowhere near a vent or other source of heat. I was so annoyed that I immediately started cleaning/repair without taking any pictures (sorry). Fortunately, there does not appear to be any corrosion from the "goo". I completely desoldered and removed the keyboard assembly to get all of the crud out of (and out from under) it. The mainboard is a fully socketed example and the crud is down in several of the sockets. I'm still working on that. Anyway, the take away is don't assume (like I did) that the ruined ADM3as you see are the result of temperature extremes. It can happen anywhere. Keep a close eye on yours if you have one. Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============0721740959367721405==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon Jan 29 17:16:44 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 12:16:25 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0edb01da52d1$e0fb9ec0$a2f2dc40$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2961749362904991062==" --===============2961749362904991062== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is there a definitive guide for repairing screen rot. One of mine needs it. I have watched others but I have not attempted my own. I might try this at the Kennett Classic workshop this upcoming Feb 17th Bill On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 11:41 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > A quick note on ADM3a screen rot... my vintage collection resides in a cool > (60-72 degrees F) dry basement. My "pride and joy" ADM3a (I have several) > was just starting to show a few bubbles at the corners last September. I > was pulling out some parts units on Friday and noticed that one had a much > better screen than I remembered. Thinking that I might swap screens, I > took > a close look at "PnJ" and discovered to my horror that most of the lower > half of the screen had "melted". "PnJ" was on a shelf, below eye level, > nowhere near a vent or other source of heat. I was so annoyed that I > immediately started cleaning/repair without taking any pictures (sorry). > Fortunately, there does not appear to be any corrosion from the "goo". I > completely desoldered and removed the keyboard assembly to get all of the > crud out of (and out from under) it. The mainboard is a fully socketed > example and the crud is down in several of the sockets. I'm still working > on that. Anyway, the take away is don't assume (like I did) that the > ruined > ADM3as you see are the result of temperature extremes. It can happen > anywhere. Keep a close eye on yours if you have one. > > > > Bill S. > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > --===============2961749362904991062==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Mon Jan 29 17:55:24 2024 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FW: Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 12:54:42 -0500 Message-ID: <0ef501da52dc$3e401200$bac03600$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2731485307451006339==" --===============2731485307451006339== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are several YT videos as you mentioned. Definitive is in the eye of th= e beholder, I think. In hindsight, I would remind people to keep their cool = and carefully think through the safety procedures related to CRTs before star= ting any work. I totally forgot to discharge my CRT but I got away with it (= I guess because it had not been powered on for four months). An interesting = side note is that the anode cap on the leaking CRT had gone rock hard and the= re was a small "streak" on the back of the CRT that looked like the plastic t= hat it was made of had released some sort of oil. Maybe it was attacked by s= omething outgassing from the goo that the CRT was dripping. Anyway, like Wil= e E Coyote, after I had shoved a screwdriver under the uncooperative anode ca= p and finally gotten it off, I suddenly thought "What the HE** did I just do?= ??". Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Degnan via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 12:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: [cctalk] Re: ADM3a screen rot. Is there a definitive guide for repairing screen rot. One of mine needs it. = I have watched others but I have not attempted my own. I might try this at = the Kennett Classic workshop this upcoming Feb 17th Bill On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 11:41=E2=80=AFAM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk= (a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > A quick note on ADM3a screen rot... my vintage collection resides in a=20 > cool > (60-72 degrees F) dry basement. My "pride and joy" ADM3a (I have > several) was just starting to show a few bubbles at the corners last=20 > September. I was pulling out some parts units on Friday and noticed=20 > that one had a much better screen than I remembered. Thinking that I=20 > might swap screens, I took a close look at "PnJ" and discovered to my=20 > horror that most of the lower half of the screen had "melted". "PnJ" > was on a shelf, below eye level, nowhere near a vent or other source=20 > of heat. I was so annoyed that I immediately started cleaning/repair=20 > without taking any pictures (sorry). > Fortunately, there does not appear to be any corrosion from the "goo".=20 > I completely desoldered and removed the keyboard assembly to get all=20 > of the crud out of (and out from under) it. The mainboard is a fully=20 > socketed example and the crud is down in several of the sockets. I'm=20 > still working on that. Anyway, the take away is don't assume (like I > did) that the ruined ADM3as you see are the result of temperature=20 > extremes. It can happen anywhere. Keep a close eye on yours if you=20 > have one. > > > > Bill S. > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > --=20 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============2731485307451006339==-- From fritzm@fritzm.org Mon Jan 29 18:56:41 2024 From: Fritz Mueller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 10:56:23 -0800 Message-ID: <5797D9B3-3B94-480E-934D-01C8CD1FC601@fritzm.org> In-Reply-To: <0ef501da52dc$3e401200$bac03600$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4721347499147729431==" --===============4721347499147729431== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 29, 2024, at 9:54=E2=80=AFAM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > ...the anode cap on the leaking CRT had gone rock hard and there was a smal= l "streak" on the back of the CRT that looked like the plastic that it was ma= de of had released some sort of oil=E2=80=A6 Often times dielectric grease is used around anode caps, and it=E2=80=99s not= unusual to see streaks like this. Usually harmless, but you can clean it up= and replace/freshen it if you replace the hardened rubber cap. Be careful w= ith such cleaning on the tube, though =E2=80=94 depending on the tube, there = may be an external aquadag coating which you won=E2=80=99t want to damage/rem= ove. =E2=80=94FritzM. --===============4721347499147729431==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 29 20:00:50 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 12:00:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0ef501da52dc$3e401200$bac03600$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6886897327116567582==" --===============6886897327116567582== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 9:55 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > There are several YT videos as you mentioned. Definitive is in the eye of > the beholder, I think. In hindsight, I would remind people to keep their > cool and carefully think through the safety procedures related to CRTs > before starting any work. I totally forgot to discharge my CRT but I got > away with it (I guess because it had not been powered on for four months). > An interesting side note is that the anode cap on the leaking CRT had gone > rock hard and there was a small "streak" on the back of the CRT that looked > like the plastic that it was made of had released some sort of oil. Maybe > it was attacked by something outgassing from the goo that the CRT was > dripping. Anyway, like Wile E Coyote, after I had shoved a screwdriver > under the uncooperative anode cap and finally gotten it off, I suddenly > thought "What the HE** did I just do???". > > Bill S. > I think you were fine. That's how you discharge them anyway. You were just missing the grounding wire :) Sellam -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Degnan via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 12:16 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Bill Degnan > Subject: [cctalk] Re: ADM3a screen rot. > > Is there a definitive guide for repairing screen rot. One of mine needs > it. I have watched others but I have not attempted my own. I might try > this at the Kennett Classic workshop this upcoming Feb 17th Bill > > On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 11:41 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > A quick note on ADM3a screen rot... my vintage collection resides in a > > cool > > (60-72 degrees F) dry basement. My "pride and joy" ADM3a (I have > > several) was just starting to show a few bubbles at the corners last > > September. I was pulling out some parts units on Friday and noticed > > that one had a much better screen than I remembered. Thinking that I > > might swap screens, I took a close look at "PnJ" and discovered to my > > horror that most of the lower half of the screen had "melted". "PnJ" > > was on a shelf, below eye level, nowhere near a vent or other source > > of heat. I was so annoyed that I immediately started cleaning/repair > > without taking any pictures (sorry). > > Fortunately, there does not appear to be any corrosion from the "goo". > > I completely desoldered and removed the keyboard assembly to get all > > of the crud out of (and out from under) it. The mainboard is a fully > > socketed example and the crud is down in several of the sockets. I'm > > still working on that. Anyway, the take away is don't assume (like I > > did) that the ruined ADM3as you see are the result of temperature > > extremes. It can happen anywhere. Keep a close eye on yours if you > > have one. > > > > > > > > Bill S. > > > > > > > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > www.avast.com > > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > --===============6886897327116567582==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Mon Jan 29 20:05:16 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 14:05:11 -0600 Message-ID: <583728005.615852.1706558711274@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4391702777654985909==" --===============4391702777654985909== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 01/29/2024 2:00 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 9:55=E2=80=AFAM William Sudbrink via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > dripping. Anyway, like Wile E Coyote, after I had shoved a screwdriver > > under the uncooperative anode cap and finally gotten it off, I suddenly > > thought "What the HE** did I just do???". > > Bill S. >=20 > I think you were fine. That's how you discharge them anyway. You were > just missing the grounding wire :) >=20 > Sellam >=20 Perhaps we should edit that? You were just the grounding wire :) Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============4391702777654985909==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Mon Jan 29 20:46:26 2024 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 15:45:43 -0500 Message-ID: <0f3601da52f4$2143a4b0$63caee10$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3806464708156669127==" --===============3806464708156669127== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sellam Abraham wrote: > I think you were fine. That's how you discharge them anyway. You were jus= t missing the grounding wire :) Yes, I have one set up for just that purpose. Wire clamped to the shaft with= an alligator at the other end. But I was so pissed off, I just grabbed a screwdriver off of my workbench. I= 'd rather not be the electron sink In this case. I've never taken a hit off of a CRT have you? Bill S. --=20 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============3806464708156669127==-- From pete@dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 30 00:09:27 2024 From: Pete Turnbull To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 23:59:01 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0f3601da52f4$2143a4b0$63caee10$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6517775227884286169==" --===============6517775227884286169== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 29/01/2024 20:45, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Sellam Abraham wrote: > >> I think you were fine. That's how you discharge them anyway. You >> were just missing the grounding wire :) > I'd rather not be the electron sink In this case. I've never taken a > hit off of a CRT have you? Yes, from a 26" CRT in a colour TV. It threw me across the room and taught me a lesson I'll not forget. BTW, if anyone has CRTs lying out of circuit, don't assume they're safe either. The EHT in normal use forces electrons into the glass, and when disconnected they very slowly migrate back to the aquadag, producing a substantial voltage. I remember seeing this demonstrated on an electronics course several decades ago. Which is where I /should/ have learned about discharging CRTs *through a suitable resistor* :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull --===============6517775227884286169==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 30 00:34:37 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 19:34:27 -0500 Message-ID: <2D97C986-F71E-4713-BD86-94168FDFDEA4@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8703478810527295822==" --===============8703478810527295822== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 29, 2024, at 6:59 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 29/01/2024 20:45, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: >> Sellam Abraham wrote: >>> I think you were fine. That's how you discharge them anyway. You >>> were just missing the grounding wire :) >=20 >> I'd rather not be the electron sink In this case. I've never taken a >> hit off of a CRT have you? >=20 > Yes, from a 26" CRT in a colour TV. It threw me across the room and > taught me a lesson I'll not forget. >=20 > BTW, if anyone has CRTs lying out of circuit, don't assume they're safe > either. The EHT in normal use forces electrons into the glass, and when > disconnected they very slowly migrate back to the aquadag, producing a > substantial voltage. I remember seeing this demonstrated on an > electronics course several decades ago. Which is where I /should/ have > learned about discharging CRTs *through a suitable resistor* :-) This apparently is true of some capacitors as well, I'm not sure which types. paul --===============8703478810527295822==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 30 01:48:15 2024 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 01:47:38 +0000 Message-ID: <1tm2QNiQtMyUiSU1QWc5cMTczaRHhWf8e7MIzEf7u5QRwF8TENPOatNqPPJxaY67hXE0afRF_S0Aq10HjtVmRpLM33AR8MtCM3Afjg7GlXg=@glitchwrks.com> In-Reply-To: <2D97C986-F71E-4713-BD86-94168FDFDEA4@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2583910312869286430==" --===============2583910312869286430== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > This apparently is true of some capacitors as well, I'm not sure which type= s. It is true of all capacitors (CRTs are intentional capacitors, after all) des= igned for and subjected to sufficiently high voltage. It's referred to as die= lectric absorption, and is why HV caps ship from the factory with the leads s= horted. I have a 4.7 uF tens-of-kV capacitor in the shop for reasons. The shorting ju= mper got knocked off once while moving stuff past it, and I noticed it the ne= xt day. By that point, it had accumulated enough charge to register over 200V= on a Simpson 260 VOM (not a high impedance meter). I don't know if that was = accumulated static charge or from dielectric absorption. Thanks, Jonathan --===============2583910312869286430==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 30 01:57:06 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 20:56:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C1tm2QNiQtMyUiSU1QWc5cMTczaRHhWf8e7MIzEf7u5QRwF8TEN?= =?utf-8?q?POatNqPPJxaY67hXE0afRF=5FS0Aq10HjtVmRpLM33AR8MtCM3Afjg7GlXg=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8748348637570109091==" --===============8748348637570109091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 29, 2024, at 8:47 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> This apparently is true of some capacitors as well, I'm not sure which typ= es. >=20 > It is true of all capacitors (CRTs are intentional capacitors, after all) d= esigned for and subjected to sufficiently high voltage. It's referred to as d= ielectric absorption, and is why HV caps ship from the factory with the leads= shorted. >=20 > I have a 4.7 uF tens-of-kV capacitor in the shop for reasons. The shorting = jumper got knocked off once while moving stuff past it, and I noticed it the = next day. By that point, it had accumulated enough charge to register over 20= 0V on a Simpson 260 VOM (not a high impedance meter). I don't know if that wa= s accumulated static charge or from dielectric absorption. >=20 > Thanks, > Jonathan Thanks for the confirmation. And also a good reminder that static electricit= y is one way to charge capacitors, at least ones with good dielectrics. Afte= r all, the famous Leyden jar is nothing more than a capacitor charged by stat= ic electricity, and it can certainly hand out substantial shocks. paul --===============8748348637570109091==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jan 30 04:07:29 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Vmebus Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 23:07:11 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0107619047901675125==" --===============0107619047901675125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what make/model/config? Bill --===============0107619047901675125==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Tue Jan 30 04:44:23 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 23:44:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9100248486915266293==" --===============9100248486915266293== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 at 23:07, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what > make/model/config? > Bill > Do you mean use as in collect and keep in working condition, or as in run for productivity? -Henry --===============9100248486915266293==-- From jrr@flippers.com Tue Jan 30 06:43:50 2024 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: Re: ADM3a screen rot. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 22:43:42 -0800 Message-ID: <1743d7c7-18bd-4783-a9cf-7697d1a456cb@flippers.com> In-Reply-To: <0f3601da52f4$2143a4b0$63caee10$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8667278680800840814==" --===============8667278680800840814== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024/01/29 12:45 p.m., William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Sellam Abraham wrote: > >> I think you were fine. That's how you discharge them anyway. You were ju= st missing the grounding wire :) > Yes, I have one set up for just that purpose. Wire clamped to the shaft wi= th an alligator at the other end. > But I was so pissed off, I just grabbed a screwdriver off of my workbench. = I'd rather not be the electron sink > In this case. I've never taken a hit off of a CRT have you? > > Bill S. > > I had a chat with an electrical engineer about discharging old picture=20 tubes many years ago, and he highly recommended using a suitable=20 resistor array - like a HV probe to drain the charge on B&W monitors.=20 Particularly ones that had a separate HV diode. He told me that=20 discharging with a screwdriver can pass too much current (caused by a=20 cascade of charges) through the diode array and damage them. This explained a problem we were having with B&W XY monitors made by=20 Electrohome and Wells Gardner where the diode that was mounted between=20 the HV transformer and the picture tube would fail and run hot, over=20 heating the silicon rubber caps on the ends. I've not lost any HV diodes=20 on machines since using our HV probe to discharge since that time. John :-#)# --=20 John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============8667278680800840814==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Jan 30 17:09:21 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 11:09:13 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8476281663623967028==" --===============8476281663623967028== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/29/24 22:07, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what > make/model/config? We have a Weiner VME system, specifically designed for nuclear data acquisition. I have a couple other VME crates with power supplies we use for the same purpose.  We now use the Jtec XLM module, which is an FPGA and memory set up to scan VME devices like ADCs, and packetize the data to send out on a USB.  So, at that end, there is NO CPU. Jon --===============8476281663623967028==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Tue Jan 30 22:30:39 2024 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 14:30:11 -0800 Message-ID: <9AEE3D66-63FF-448D-8382-3CD62AB23908@snowmoose.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2889122490489868858==" --===============2889122490489868858== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was given a Sun 3/260 that had been sitting in an open barn for a decade. I= t is a 12-slot, 9U VME system. I got it running with its CPU board (25Mhz 680= 20) and a Sun 32M memory board (the 8M board it came with has a h/w issue). After that people started giving me Sun VME stuff. That includes a Computervi= sion Sun3-based (so VME) CADDS Station that I need to get working at some poi= nt. alan > On Jan 29, 2024, at 20:07, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAnyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so,= what > make/model/config? > Bill --===============2889122490489868858==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Tue Jan 30 23:04:14 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 15:03:58 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9AEE3D66-63FF-448D-8382-3CD62AB23908@snowmoose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5062225155721148294==" --===============5062225155721148294== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh yeah, that reminds me, I have a Sun 4/110. Never really thought much about it being a VME system, such as a Motorola MVME system. I can't say I use the Sun 4/110 at least occasionally. I don't remember the last time I powered it on. I suppose I should see if it still boots up sometime. On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > I was given a Sun 3/260 that had been sitting in an open barn for a decade.= It is a 12-slot, 9U VME system. I got it running with its CPU board (25Mhz 6= 8020) and a Sun 32M memory board (the 8M board it came with has a h/w issue). > > After that people started giving me Sun VME stuff. That includes a Computer= vision Sun3-based (so VME) CADDS Station that I need to get working at some p= oint. > > alan > > > On Jan 29, 2024, at 20:07, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFAnyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If s= o, what > > make/model/config? > > Bill --===============5062225155721148294==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jan 30 23:25:46 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:25:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3173799666604175492==" --===============3173799666604175492== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable thanks. I suppose that gives me enough idea what time period and use they had Bill On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 6:04=E2=80=AFPM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Oh yeah, that reminds me, I have a Sun 4/110. Never really thought > much about it being a VME system, such as a Motorola MVME system. I > can't say I use the Sun 4/110 at least occasionally. I don't remember > the last time I powered it on. I suppose I should see if it still > boots up sometime. > > On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I was given a Sun 3/260 that had been sitting in an open barn for a > decade. It is a 12-slot, 9U VME system. I got it running with its CPU board > (25Mhz 68020) and a Sun 32M memory board (the 8M board it came with has a > h/w issue). > > > > After that people started giving me Sun VME stuff. That includes a > Computervision Sun3-based (so VME) CADDS Station that I need to get working > at some point. > > > > alan > > > > > On Jan 29, 2024, at 20:07, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFAnyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If= so, > what > > > make/model/config? > > > Bill > --===============3173799666604175492==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Tue Jan 30 23:48:52 2024 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 15:48:36 -0800 Message-ID: <99BC5409-17F0-4821-833D-11BA6BCE258F@eschatologist.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3128810253720972425==" --===============3128810253720972425== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 30, 2024, at 3:25=E2=80=AFPM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > thanks. I suppose that gives me enough idea what time period and use they > had VMEbus was widely used as a successor to MultiBus in the workstation market, = a lot of vendors that started with MultiBus (Sun/SGI for example) switched to= VME because they were using 68K anyway and it a supported full 32-bit addres= s and data space, where MultiBus was mostly designed for 8080/8085/8086 (and = even 8086 required some extension to support 16-bit data bus width and 20-bit= address space). The biggest uses of VMEbus though were in laboratory automation, process cont= rol, and robotics, where it was in competition with both MultiBus and DIO[1] = (the bus on the HP 9000-200 and 9000-300 series, which were originally design= ed as successors to the HP 1000/21MX/2100 series). That's why you'll see a lo= t of analog and digital I/O hardware, computer vision systems, motor controll= ers, and so on in the VMEbus 3U and 6U form factors. This is also what got VM= Ebus used in a lot of American defense applications. -- Chris --===============3128810253720972425==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jan 31 00:34:16 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:34:07 -0500 Message-ID: <1486F5D1-7707-4C67-8D09-B6DC3546DB43@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <99BC5409-17F0-4821-833D-11BA6BCE258F@eschatologist.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4472907473817147733==" --===============4472907473817147733== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 30, 2024, at 6:48 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Jan 30, 2024, at 3:25=E2=80=AFPM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> thanks. I suppose that gives me enough idea what time period and use they >> had >=20 > VMEbus was widely used as a successor to MultiBus in the workstation market= , a lot of vendors that started with MultiBus (Sun/SGI for example) switched = to VME because they were using 68K anyway and it a supported full 32-bit addr= ess and data space, where MultiBus was mostly designed for 8080/8085/8086 (an= d even 8086 required some extension to support 16-bit data bus width and 20-b= it address space). >=20 > The biggest uses of VMEbus though were in laboratory automation, process co= ntrol, and robotics, where it was in competition with both MultiBus and DIO[1= ] (the bus on the HP 9000-200 and 9000-300 series, which were originally desi= gned as successors to the HP 1000/21MX/2100 series). That's why you'll see a = lot of analog and digital I/O hardware, computer vision systems, motor contro= llers, and so on in the VMEbus 3U and 6U form factors. This is also what got = VMEbus used in a lot of American defense applications. There's also VXIbus, which is VMEbus with some extensions and packaging stand= ards for instrumentation modules. It seems to be still alive and well today. paul --===============4472907473817147733==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jan 31 00:48:09 2024 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:48:03 -0600 Message-ID: <7fcf1e45-4384-8593-5c83-118f6f20a081@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3669447525303474614==" --===============3669447525303474614== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/30/24 11:09, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 1/29/24 22:07, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least >> occasionally? If so, what >> make/model/config? Oh, also my Samsung-made pick and place machine has a 68020 to run the motion system, and a PC that runs the GUI, they are connected by a dual-port memory interface from the PC's ISA bus. The 68K connects to all the motion and vision cards over VME. Jon --===============3669447525303474614==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Wed Jan 31 00:59:43 2024 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 15:41:53 -0800 Message-ID: <63A518C9-91B4-4DA5-B330-88A4788FE0A1@eschatologist.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8550510371118626559==" --===============8550510371118626559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 29, 2024, at 8:07=E2=80=AFPM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what > make/model/config? I have a variety of VME hardware that I use some of the time, and on the Clas= sicCmp Discord we even have a #vme channel. I've mostly been using a Motorola MVME167 (with some additional VMEbus memory= cards) netbooted to NetBSD off and on, though I also have 147 and 177 cards = (68030 and 68060) that I'll use. I also have a couple of MVME197 88000-based = cards that I've used to port OpenBSD-mvme88k forward by one point release fro= m when they dropped support. (I wish NetBSD had mvme88k=E2=80=A6) And I have = a couple other 68K VMEbus cards like a Xycom XVME-600 and XVME-630; the 600 i= s cute and runs Mach2 FORTH from ROM, while the 630 is a more or less generic= 68EC030. I have a variety of peripheral cards that I've been trying to do various thin= gs with, including a slick RasterGraf RG-750 graphics & human interface card = (it's 34010-based and has AT keyboard and serial mouse ports), a couple NI GP= IB cards, and a bunch of earlier cards like Motorola HD/floppy, Ethernet, SCS= I, and intelligent serial cards, and so on. I also have a few older Motorola 68010 and 68020 boards; I want to bring up M= INIX 1.5.10.7 at some point on my MVME050+MVME121 and see if I can't get it t= o leverage the MMU. And I have a VME/10 workstation that needs to be put back= together that I'd like to run Motorola SVR2 on. Finally, I have a bit of more exotic gear. I have a couple of the INMOS Trans= puter VME cards (as well as the non-VME equivalents for my ITEMs) and I have = a few Mercury Computer Systems i860 cards for which I really, really, *really= * want to find documentation someday. It'd be a lot fun to have a bunch of i8= 60s rendering a scene or something that I can then output via the RG-750, con= trolled by an 88K... Oh yeah, and I have a few Suns and a Symbolics that use 9U VME, as well as a = couple ISI systems that use 6U VME[1].=20 -- Chris [1] ISI used their own QBus-style ejectors on the card top instead of the sta= ndard Motorola style plates, so they're *not quite* the same form factor. Dar= ned annoying. --===============8550510371118626559==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Wed Jan 31 01:39:45 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:32:06 -0600 Message-ID: <307649379.1371222.1706664726874@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <99BC5409-17F0-4821-833D-11BA6BCE258F@eschatologist.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3483921494236276718==" --===============3483921494236276718== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 01/30/2024 5:48 PM CST Chris Hanson via cctalk = wrote: > VMEbus was widely used as a successor to MultiBus in the workstation market Or, in the case of Mizar, Inc., their STDBus line of cards. > The biggest uses of VMEbus though were in laboratory automation, process co= ntrol, and robotics Yep. That's where many of Mizar's boards went; the rest went to military app= lications. It was a good enough living for a number of years in the 1980s. mcl --===============3483921494236276718==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Wed Jan 31 03:35:51 2024 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:35:34 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1486F5D1-7707-4C67-8D09-B6DC3546DB43@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8316362521754116857==" --===============8316362521754116857== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 4:34=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > There's also VXIbus, which is VMEbus with some extensions and packaging sta= ndards for instrumentation modules. It seems to be still alive and well toda= y. I have a couple of PA-RISC based HP/Agilent V743/64 (E1497A) and V743/100 (E1498A) single-slot, C-size VXI embedded computers. You can run standard HP-UX on them and control VXI instrument modules installed in the same VXI mainframe. I also have a couple of 68000 based HP/Agilent E1406A VXI GPIB Command Modules, which provide a GPIB controller interface to VXI instrument modules installed in the same VXI mainframe. The versions I have can also run Instrument Basic on the E1406A as a standalone controller with a terminal interface attached to the E1406A serial port. Plus also a couple of X86 based Radisys EPC-5 or EPC-7 VXI CPU modules. I forget what versions those are. I haven't touched those in around 20 years, and forget why I have those. --===============8316362521754116857==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Wed Jan 31 06:36:12 2024 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 00:36:01 -0600 Message-ID: <139173544.1381154.1706682961460@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5148344831517852504==" --===============5148344831517852504== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 01/30/2024 9:35 PM CST Glen Slick via cctalk w= rote: > I have a couple of PA-RISC based HP/Agilent V743/64 (E1497A) and > V743/100 (E1498A) single-slot, C-size VXI embedded computers. OMFG I thought *my* co-design of a Sparc VMEbus board was rare/obscure. mcl --===============5148344831517852504==-- From knowak@alumni.calpoly.edu Wed Jan 31 07:26:11 2024 From: Kurt Nowak To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:04:09 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8231539124898332665==" --===============8231539124898332665== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have several Sun3 machines... 3/160, 3/110, 3/50 and 3/60. All except the 3/80 use VME bus. -Kurt On Mon, Jan 29, 2024, 20:07 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what > make/model/config? > Bill > --===============8231539124898332665==-- From plamenspam@afterpeople.com Wed Jan 31 07:27:29 2024 From: Plamen Mihaylov To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 09:27:12 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <139173544.1381154.1706682961460@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6149630937128775653==" --===============6149630937128775653== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've been running a VME chassis with 3 boards for several years: MVME172, MVME177 and GE VME7671 They are still kicking! On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 8:36 AM Mark Linimon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 01/30/2024 9:35 PM CST Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > > I have a couple of PA-RISC based HP/Agilent V743/64 (E1497A) and > > V743/100 (E1498A) single-slot, C-size VXI embedded computers. > > OMFG I thought *my* co-design of a Sparc VMEbus board was rare/obscure. > > mcl > --===============6149630937128775653==-- From kl@2k.ca Wed Jan 31 07:41:09 2024 From: Kevin Lee To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] A little help please Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:31:12 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7173357163725568477==" --===============7173357163725568477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could someone kindly delete me from this list..=20 The mailing list software says it does not know me and yet I am getting email= s :) Thanks K. Ps: appreciate the help.=20 --===============7173357163725568477==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 31 10:08:20 2024 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 11:08:09 +0100 Message-ID: <627f5e19-672-84-7a86-947158ec4ac@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <9AEE3D66-63FF-448D-8382-3CD62AB23908@snowmoose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8388421949170496315==" --===============8388421949170496315== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 30 Jan 2024, Alan Perry wrote: > I was given a Sun 3/260 that had been sitting in an open barn for a > decade. It is a 12-slot, 9U VME system. I got it running with its CPU > board (25Mhz 68020) and a Sun 32M memory board (the 8M board it came > with has a h/w issue). Our SUN 4/260 is still running 24h/7d since 1988 :-) Christian --===============8388421949170496315==-- From tih@hamartun.priv.no Wed Jan 31 11:24:05 2024 From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 12:14:44 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2287998651130963017==" --===============2287998651130963017== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Degnan via cctalk writes: > Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what > make/model/config? I have a couple of old Stride Micro systems, a 440 and a 460, that get turned on very occasionally. They run UniStride 2.1, which is based on SVR2, if memory serves. Nice 68010-based machines, interesting software architecture, with an advanced BIOS that supports several operating systems, and can even run multiple OS-es simultaneously. -tih -- Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay --===============2287998651130963017==-- From kl@2k.ca Wed Jan 31 12:11:16 2024 From: Kevin Lee To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:01:17 +0100 Message-ID: <9cd800f8-b52b-4027-b991-1888fcd309d5@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8520843683722953904==" --===============8520843683722953904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unsubscribe me from this list. On Wed, Jan 31, 2024, at 12:14 PM, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via cctalk wrote: > Bill Degnan via cctalk writes: > > > Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what > > make/model/config? > > I have a couple of old Stride Micro systems, a 440 and a 460, that get > turned on very occasionally. They run UniStride 2.1, which is based on > SVR2, if memory serves. Nice 68010-based machines, interesting software > architecture, with an advanced BIOS that supports several operating > systems, and can even run multiple OS-es simultaneously. > > -tih > -- > Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance > of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay > --===============8520843683722953904==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jan 31 13:57:45 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:57:27 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9cd800f8-b52b-4027-b991-1888fcd309d5@app.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0051535071933522130==" --===============0051535071933522130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, that is the old FAQ and may not be correct, here is a newer page https://classiccmp.org/mailman3/postorius/lists/cctalk.classiccmp.org/ On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > Unsubscribe me from this list. > > > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2024, at 12:14 PM, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via cctalk wrote: > > Bill Degnan via cctalk writes: > > > > > Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what > > > make/model/config? > > > > I have a couple of old Stride Micro systems, a 440 and a 460, that get > > turned on very occasionally. They run UniStride 2.1, which is based on > > SVR2, if memory serves. Nice 68010-based machines, interesting software > > architecture, with an advanced BIOS that supports several operating > > systems, and can even run multiple OS-es simultaneously. > > > > -tih > > -- > > Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the > significance > > of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan > Kay > > > --===============0051535071933522130==-- From christopher1400@gmail.com Wed Jan 31 14:23:32 2024 From: Christopher Satterfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 06:23:01 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3160944500275165294==" --===============3160944500275165294== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm going to be presenting a (fine? idk) collection of British Computers. Dragging along at least an Acorn RiscPC 700, a Castle Iyonix, Sinclair Spectrum 48k and a Q68. Possibly static Apricot FP1/F1 if I can be bothered to reassemble them despite their non-functional states. --===============3160944500275165294==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jan 31 15:33:23 2024 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:51:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9cd800f8-b52b-4027-b991-1888fcd309d5@app.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1190190617134849784==" --===============1190190617134849784== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc(a)u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. [][][][][][][][][][] On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > Unsubscribe me from this list. > > > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2024, at 12:14 PM, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via cctalk wrote: > > Bill Degnan via cctalk writes: > > > > > Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what > > > make/model/config? > > > > I have a couple of old Stride Micro systems, a 440 and a 460, that get > > turned on very occasionally. They run UniStride 2.1, which is based on > > SVR2, if memory serves. Nice 68010-based machines, interesting software > > architecture, with an advanced BIOS that supports several operating > > systems, and can even run multiple OS-es simultaneously. > > > > -tih > > -- > > Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the > significance > > of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan > Kay > > > --===============1190190617134849784==-- From kl@2k.ca Wed Jan 31 15:33:27 2024 From: Kevin Lee To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 15:17:46 +0100 Message-ID: <6c267440-d114-47fd-b2eb-0f80943e7f94@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4619845183601253712==" --===============4619845183601253712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please unsubscribe me from this list.=20 On Wed, Jan 31, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Sorry, that is the old FAQ and may not be correct, here is a newer page > https://classiccmp.org/mailman3/postorius/lists/cctalk.classiccmp.org/ >=20 > On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM Kevin Lee via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > Unsubscribe me from this list. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2024, at 12:14 PM, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via cctalk wrote: > > > Bill Degnan via cctalk writes: > > > > > > > Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, wh= at > > > > make/model/config? > > > > > > I have a couple of old Stride Micro systems, a 440 and a 460, that get > > > turned on very occasionally. They run UniStride 2.1, which is based on > > > SVR2, if memory serves. Nice 68010-based machines, interesting software > > > architecture, with an advanced BIOS that supports several operating > > > systems, and can even run multiple OS-es simultaneously. > > > > > > -tih > > > -- > > > Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the > > significance > > > of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan > > Kay > > > > > >=20 --===============4619845183601253712==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Wed Jan 31 15:34:54 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 10:34:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3967008143094106338==" --===============3967008143094106338== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a Sun3E VMEbus system. It is a Sun3/60 split into five 6Ux160 VMEbus boards. On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 8:57 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sorry, that is the old FAQ and may not be correct, here is a newer page > https://classiccmp.org/mailman3/postorius/lists/cctalk.classiccmp.org/ > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 7:11 AM Kevin Lee via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Unsubscribe me from this list. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2024, at 12:14 PM, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via cctalk wrote: > > > Bill Degnan via cctalk writes: > > > > > > > Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, > what > > > > make/model/config? > > > > > > I have a couple of old Stride Micro systems, a 440 and a 460, that get > > > turned on very occasionally. They run UniStride 2.1, which is based on > > > SVR2, if memory serves. Nice 68010-based machines, interesting > software > > > architecture, with an advanced BIOS that supports several operating > > > systems, and can even run multiple OS-es simultaneously. > > > > > > -tih > > > -- > > > Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the > > significance > > > of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan > > Kay > > > > > > -- Michael Thompson --===============3967008143094106338==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Jan 31 17:13:17 2024 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:13:00 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1586111119781464156==" --===============1586111119781464156== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 14:23, Christopher Satterfield via cctalk wrote: > > I'm going to be presenting a (fine? idk) collection of British Computers. > Dragging along at least an Acorn RiscPC 700, a Castle Iyonix, Sinclair > Spectrum 48k and a Q68. Possibly static Apricot FP1/F1 if I can be bothered > to reassemble them despite their non-functional states. As a Brit, can I just express my appreciation of this? :-) I write for an international audience and sometimes people from the USA are openly and repeatedly incredulous that "obscure" British computers -- that means they've never heard of them -- can be considered significant or important, even compared to American machines that were on sale in East Futtbuck Idaho for 6 weeks in Spring 1973 and have never been mentioned since. The biggest selling CPU in history is a British design from a British company. Its native OS is still updated and is FOSS today, and provided the inspiration for a key part of the Windows 95 user interface now used by billions. The core of the OS dates from the late 1970s or so and may be the oldest OS of which a modern derivative still can run on the bare metal of new hardware in 2024. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1586111119781464156==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Wed Jan 31 17:34:59 2024 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 12:34:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5948155475773650143==" --===============5948155475773650143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 12:13, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: I write for an international audience and sometimes people from the > USA are openly and repeatedly incredulous that "obscure" British > computers -- that means they've never heard of them -- can be > considered significant or important, even compared to American > machines that were on sale in East Futtbuck Idaho for 6 weeks in > Spring 1973 and have never been mentioned since. > I wish that I were in a position to visit that VCF and see those machines. As an American it's true that the vast majority of my vintage computer experience is completely americentric, but I'm aware that Acorn had a significant presence in the overseas market and that RiscOS is viewed fondly. Perhaps it's time for me to find an emulator and experience the system for myself. And yes, there does appear to be outsize interest from the community in dead-end and/or sub-par American machines vs. those from overseas. For example, I gather that Omron did fairly well in the UNIX hardware business in Japan, but had effectively zero market penetration elsewhere. Interest in those systems here is effectively zero, mostly because they never appeared on the secondary market and so there was no long tail leading to hobbyist use. > The biggest selling CPU in history is a British design from a British > company. Its native OS is still updated and is FOSS today, and > provided the inspiration for a key part of the Windows 95 user > interface now used by billions. The core of the OS dates from the late > 1970s or so and may be the oldest OS of which a modern derivative > still can run on the bare metal of new hardware in 2024. > Surely by this definition UNIX would take the crown? The "core of the OS" dates from 1969 and modern derivatives are everywhere. -Henry --===============5948155475773650143==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jan 31 17:51:57 2024 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 09:51:48 -0800 Message-ID: <1MAP2t-1rJzXI02bj-00BpbI@mrelay.perfora.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9156207597835367370==" --===============9156207597835367370== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That would be very interesting. I always thought Apricot made some beasts and= remeber the cover of Byte for the first 486 system being an Apricot VX. I wo= uld love to see that machine in person.=C2=A0 -------- Original message --------From: Christopher Satterfield via cctalk Date: 1/31/24 6:23 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Disc= ussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Christoph= er Satterfield Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal = I'm going to be presenting a (fine? idk) collection of British Computers.Drag= ging along at least an Acorn RiscPC 700, a Castle Iyonix, SinclairSpectrum 48= k and a Q68. Possibly static Apricot FP1/F1 if I can be botheredto reassemble= them despite their non-functional states. --===============9156207597835367370==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Jan 31 17:57:50 2024 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 11:57:46 -0600 Message-ID: <1974275214.75058.1706723866413@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6718011208394505218==" --===============6718011208394505218== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 01/31/2024 11:34 AM CST Henry Bent via cctalk = wrote: > > > On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 12:13, Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > I write for an international audience and sometimes people from the > > USA are openly and repeatedly incredulous that "obscure" British > > computers -- that means they've never heard of them -- can be > > considered significant or important, even compared to American > > machines that were on sale in East Futtbuck Idaho for 6 weeks in > > Spring 1973 and have never been mentioned since. > > I wish that I were in a position to visit that VCF and see those machines. I as well. I do hope you will record it and make it available online somewhe= re. I have found that computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most inter= esting were never available in the US. Thanks, Will Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for child= ren to be always and forever explaining things to them, Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince --===============6718011208394505218==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jan 31 18:04:39 2024 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 10:04:22 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7803827949060612746==" --===============7803827949060612746== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 9:13 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 14:23, Christopher Satterfield via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I'm going to be presenting a (fine? idk) collection of British Computers. > > Dragging along at least an Acorn RiscPC 700, a Castle Iyonix, Sinclair > > Spectrum 48k and a Q68. Possibly static Apricot FP1/F1 if I can be > bothered > > to reassemble them despite their non-functional states. > > As a Brit, can I just express my appreciation of this? :-) > > I write for an international audience and sometimes people from the > USA are openly and repeatedly incredulous that "obscure" British > computers -- that means they've never heard of them -- can be > considered significant or important, even compared to American > machines that were on sale in East Futtbuck Idaho for 6 weeks in > Spring 1973 and have never been mentioned since. > > The biggest selling CPU in history is a British design from a British > company. Its native OS is still updated and is FOSS today, and > provided the inspiration for a key part of the Windows 95 user > interface now used by billions. The core of the OS dates from the late > 1970s or so and may be the oldest OS of which a modern derivative > still can run on the bare metal of new hardware in 2024. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Probably because Americans in Futtbuck, Idaho never heard of any British computers but Brits certainly knew about American computers, eh wot? P.S. Just so this doesn't cause an international incident, I am very fond of various British computers and right now I'm on a BBC Micro kick, specifically because of its BASIC interpreter. Sellam --===============7803827949060612746==-- From mark.romberg@gmail.com Wed Jan 31 18:15:01 2024 From: mark audacity romberg To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 12:14:44 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8999747009123356189==" --===============8999747009123356189== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BBC BASIC is the best BASIC there ever was, and I feel sad for those who have= never used it to see how powerful BASIC can be with proper structured progra= mming. It=E2=80=99s honestly like a different language.=20 > On Jan 31, 2024, at 12:05, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFright now I'm on a BBC Micro kick, > specifically because of its BASIC interpreter. --===============8999747009123356189==-- From wrm@dW.co.za Wed Jan 31 18:34:53 2024 From: Wouter de Waal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 20:34:27 +0200 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20240131203041.0b03b270@mort.dW.co.za> In-Reply-To: <170663760730.2847341.3384895964982942309@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6415458656867699932==" --===============6415458656867699932== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what >make/model/config? I still use a couple of PPC VME boards (DY4 / Curtiss Wright 182/183/184, both Conduction-Cooled and Air-Cooled) to test the tail end of hardware that we are still shipping (by now EOL and basically NOS). But it's work, I don't find them interesting. If someone here has the warm fuzzies for PPC VME, we can talk :-) W --===============6415458656867699932==-- From wrm@dW.co.za Wed Jan 31 18:40:00 2024 From: Wouter de Waal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 20:39:45 +0200 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20240131203847.0b03ba20@mort.dW.co.za> In-Reply-To: <170672400783.2847341.10454461613607910580@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5438268951588269753==" --===============5438268951588269753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I have found that computers are much like motorcycles: many of the >most interesting were never available in the US. Computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most interesting ones were TERRIBLE! W --===============5438268951588269753==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jan 31 18:52:58 2024 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:52:45 -0500 Message-ID: <80C2A188-9B83-42C1-8E79-FC8B3AC0E88A@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20240131203847.0b03ba20@mort.dW.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7496950833748477876==" --===============7496950833748477876== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 31, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Wouter de Waal via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> I have found that computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most in= teresting were never available in the US. >=20 > Computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most interesting ones were= TERRIBLE! I wonder what fraction of early (before, say, 1955) computer work was done in= the USA. A substantial fraction no doubt, but perhaps not as large as one m= ight guess. A related question would be how much work was done outside the U= SA and UK. =20 For that matter, similar questions could be asked about the amount of documen= tation preserved from various countries. One difficulty, I think, is that re= sources like bitsavers have a large proportion of US material. Maybe because= of the predominance of the work, maybe in part because of the distribution o= f collectors. To pick one example, material -- even just a passing reference= -- about the Philips PR8000 is very nearly nonexistent. And I see no trace = of any other Dutch computer at all on Bitsavers. True, some stuff can be fou= nd in places like the CWI archive, though searching that can be rather painfu= l. paul --===============7496950833748477876==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Wed Jan 31 18:56:46 2024 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 18:56:10 +0000 Message-ID: <2d05916ea9c842f6bf2b2f407c041faf@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20240131203041.0b03b270@mort.dW.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1226322271172080831==" --===============1226322271172080831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, PPC VME cards, add VXworks, funky coprocessors, COTS IO and you have defi= nitely got something best avoided : details would involve libations. The conduction cooled chassis are OK and worth repurposing. Contrariwise the= VME bus is best avoided, whether classic 32b VME or the 64 bit revision. Ho= wever, the connectors for VME 64x backplanes and the form factor have merit, = but that is to depart from the past. Martin -----Original Message----- From: Wouter de Waal via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 31 January 2024 18:34 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Wouter de Waal Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus > >Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what=20 >make/model/config? I still use a couple of PPC VME boards (DY4 / Curtiss Wright 182/183/184, bot= h Conduction-Cooled and Air-Cooled) to test the tail end of hardware that we = are still shipping (by now EOL and basically NOS). But it's work, I don't find them interesting. If someone here has the warm fuzzies for PPC VME, we can talk :-) W --===============1226322271172080831==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Wed Jan 31 19:06:17 2024 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 19:05:43 +0000 Message-ID: <96078ceb1b3f4e13a0b65168ba13c3dd@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <80C2A188-9B83-42C1-8E79-FC8B3AC0E88A@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5481643258069921042==" --===============5481643258069921042== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <> One standard work is "The First Computers : History and Architectures" Ed Rojas, et al MIT Press; 2002; ISBN 0-262-68137-4 US : 5 sections Germany : 7 sections UK : 5 sections Japan : 2 sections as an indication of activity <> In the UK context, where there is on-line documentation of the ICL 2900 serie= s is a question I don't know the answer to There is of course an operational ICL 2966 at TNMoC, Bletchley Park Martin -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 31 January 2024 18:53 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Wouter de Waal ; Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal > On Jan 31, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Wouter de Waal via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> I have found that computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most in= teresting were never available in the US. >=20 > Computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most interesting ones were= TERRIBLE! I wonder what fraction of early (before, say, 1955) computer work was done in= the USA. A substantial fraction no doubt, but perhaps not as large as one m= ight guess. A related question would be how much work was done outside the U= SA and UK. =20 For that matter, similar questions could be asked about the amount of documen= tation preserved from various countries. One difficulty, I think, is that re= sources like bitsavers have a large proportion of US material. Maybe because= of the predominance of the work, maybe in part because of the distribution o= f collectors. To pick one example, material -- even just a passing reference= -- about the Philips PR8000 is very nearly nonexistent. And I see no trace = of any other Dutch computer at all on Bitsavers. True, some stuff can be fou= nd in places like the CWI archive, though searching that can be rather painfu= l. paul --===============5481643258069921042==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 31 19:38:24 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:12:13 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2d05916ea9c842f6bf2b2f407c041faf@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8234251444207151307==" --===============8234251444207151307== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have recently acquired a Qume Model 842 double sided 8" disk drive. I have reset all of the settings to factory default and hooked it up to=20 my greastweazle. The drive works perfectly for double sided disks (using the appropriate=20 index hole). However, the greaseweasel reports no index pulse when I put a single=20 sided diskette in the drive.=C2=A0 I have attempted to clean out the sensor=20 for single sided diskettes to on avail. Does any one have any ideas? The grease weasel works perfectly when I connect SA-800 drives. I have not yet tried installing terminating resistors in the Qume. Thank you in advance for your help, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mike On 1/31/2024 12:56 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > Ah, PPC VME cards, add VXworks, funky coprocessors, COTS IO and you have de= finitely got something best avoided : details would involve libations. > > The conduction cooled chassis are OK and worth repurposing. Contrariwise t= he VME bus is best avoided, whether classic 32b VME or the 64 bit revision. = However, the connectors for VME 64x backplanes and the form factor have merit= , but that is to depart from the past. > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wouter de Waal via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 31 January 2024 18:34 > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Wouter de Waal > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus > > >> Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what >> make/model/config? > I still use a couple of PPC VME boards (DY4 / Curtiss Wright 182/183/184, b= oth Conduction-Cooled and Air-Cooled) to test the tail end of hardware that w= e are still shipping (by now EOL and basically NOS). > > But it's work, I don't find them interesting. > > If someone here has the warm fuzzies for PPC VME, we can talk :-) > > W > --===============8234251444207151307==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Wed Jan 31 20:29:39 2024 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 15:29:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8689337780117680398==" --===============8689337780117680398== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Connect an oscilloscope to the output of the single-sided sensor and see if it works. If so, trace the signal through the logic and see if it gets to the I/O connector that goes to the greaseweazel. On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 2:38=E2=80=AFPM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I have recently acquired a Qume Model 842 double sided 8" disk drive. > > I have reset all of the settings to factory default and hooked it up to > my greastweazle. > > The drive works perfectly for double sided disks (using the appropriate > index hole). > > However, the greaseweasel reports no index pulse when I put a single > sided diskette in the drive. I have attempted to clean out the sensor > for single sided diskettes to on avail. > > Does any one have any ideas? > > The grease weasel works perfectly when I connect SA-800 drives. > > I have not yet tried installing terminating resistors in the Qume. > > Thank you in advance for your help, > > Mike > > On 1/31/2024 12:56 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > > Ah, PPC VME cards, add VXworks, funky coprocessors, COTS IO and you have > definitely got something best avoided : details would involve libations. > > > > The conduction cooled chassis are OK and worth repurposing. > Contrariwise the VME bus is best avoided, whether classic 32b VME or the 64 > bit revision. However, the connectors for VME 64x backplanes and the form > factor have merit, but that is to depart from the past. > > > > Martin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Wouter de Waal via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > > Sent: 31 January 2024 18:34 > > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > Cc: Wouter de Waal > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus > > > > > >> Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what > >> make/model/config? > > I still use a couple of PPC VME boards (DY4 / Curtiss Wright > 182/183/184, both Conduction-Cooled and Air-Cooled) to test the tail end of > hardware that we are still shipping (by now EOL and basically NOS). > > > > But it's work, I don't find them interesting. > > > > If someone here has the warm fuzzies for PPC VME, we can talk :-) > > > > W > > > > --=20 Michael Thompson --===============8689337780117680398==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jan 31 20:55:55 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 12:17:16 -0800 Message-ID: <036a190e-1b80-42d1-b7aa-8aae32e7904d@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0434771516508827220==" --===============0434771516508827220== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/31/24 11:12, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I have not yet tried installing terminating resistors... That might help. It's also possible that the LED/phototransistor for the SS index position is faulty. The two LEDs (SS and DS) are connected in series, so you know that at least one isn't open. Grab your DMM and check the voltage levels on pins A6 and A7 on connector J2. They should change as the beam is broken in each with a piece of tinfoil or something else opaque. --Chuck --===============0434771516508827220==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 31 21:04:03 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 15:03:44 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2870933670312408653==" --===============2870933670312408653== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael, Thank you, that was what I was planning as my next step.  I haven't checked to see if the service manual has a full schematic. The main purpose of my message on here was to see if I was missing something obvious like an option trace cut or something like that that I missed when I checked the manual. Thanks again,          Mike On 1/31/2024 2:29 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > Connect an oscilloscope to the output of the single-sided sensor and > see if it works. If so, trace the signal through the logic and see if > it gets to the I/O connector that goes to the greaseweazel. > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 2:38 PM Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: > > I have recently acquired a Qume Model 842 double sided 8" disk drive. > > I have reset all of the settings to factory default and hooked it > up to > my greastweazle. > > The drive works perfectly for double sided disks (using the > appropriate > index hole). > > However, the greaseweasel reports no index pulse when I put a single > sided diskette in the drive.  I have attempted to clean out the > sensor > for single sided diskettes to on avail. > > Does any one have any ideas? > > The grease weasel works perfectly when I connect SA-800 drives. > > I have not yet tried installing terminating resistors in the Qume. > > Thank you in advance for your help, > >                        Mike > > --===============2870933670312408653==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 31 21:39:06 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 15:08:11 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <036a190e-1b80-42d1-b7aa-8aae32e7904d@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4033827583140251561==" --===============4033827583140251561== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That is one of the tests recommended in the service manual.  It's on my list of things to check. Thank you... On 1/31/2024 2:17 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/31/24 11:12, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> I have not yet tried installing terminating resistors... > That might help. It's also possible that the LED/phototransistor for > the SS index position is faulty. The two LEDs (SS and DS) are connected > in series, so you know that at least one isn't open. Grab your DMM and > check the voltage levels on pins A6 and A7 on connector J2. They should > change as the beam is broken in each with a piece of tinfoil or > something else opaque. > > --Chuck > > --===============4033827583140251561==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jan 31 22:00:00 2024 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:59:47 -0800 Message-ID: <611408ae-9749-478e-90fb-363ef3f3fb96@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5465942269209054737==" --===============5465942269209054737== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/31/24 13:03, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Michael, > > Thank you, that was what I was planning as my next step.  I haven't > checked to see if the service manual has a full schematic. > > The main purpose of my message on here was to see if I was missing > something obvious like an option trace cut or something like that that I > missed when I checked the manual. > > Thanks again, Mike - There is indeed a schematic in the 842 service manual PDF page 87 is what you're looking for. Since the LEDs are always powered, you need only be concerned with the output of the phototransistor. DMM is fine; no scope necessary. An opto going bad is not completely unknown on these drives. (I have a couple of the 842s--good drives, otherwise) Diskette drives really are non-intelligent devices... --Chuck --===============5465942269209054737==-- From kantexplain@protonmail.com Wed Jan 31 22:03:50 2024 From: Just Kant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NEC APC external floppy drivers needed Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 21:56:19 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8833826906188510917==" --===============8833826906188510917== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't even have an APC anymore. But since this thing is eyeing me menacingl= y I figured I'd put the request out. Butler Flats Associates dual external 5 = 1/4" accoutrement, has it's own controller card (based on wd1771/1772 iirc). = Contact me off list if you have these. Much appreciated. Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email. --===============8833826906188510917==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 31 22:27:24 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:27:15 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <611408ae-9749-478e-90fb-363ef3f3fb96@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4185578307763362143==" --===============4185578307763362143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I believe the pull ups are all on inputs from the external controller and not for outputs from the drive itself.  Looking at the schematic the Index output (J1-P20) does not go through the pull up resistors. Thanks again for your help. On 1/31/2024 3:59 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/31/24 13:03, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> Michael, >> >> Thank you, that was what I was planning as my next step.  I haven't >> checked to see if the service manual has a full schematic. >> >> The main purpose of my message on here was to see if I was missing >> something obvious like an option trace cut or something like that that I >> missed when I checked the manual. >> >> Thanks again, > Mike - > > There is indeed a schematic in the 842 service manual PDF page 87 is > what you're looking for. Since the LEDs are always powered, you need > only be concerned with the output of the phototransistor. DMM is fine; > no scope necessary. An opto going bad is not completely unknown on > these drives. (I have a couple of the 842s--good drives, otherwise) > > Diskette drives really are non-intelligent devices... > > --Chuck > > --===============4185578307763362143==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 31 23:20:23 2024 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Qume 842 8" Disk Drive Question Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:22:00 -0600 Message-ID: <2beba7f1-f576-4e51-acec-3646d8a50c5c@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <611408ae-9749-478e-90fb-363ef3f3fb96@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4521838638851429359==" --===============4521838638851429359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I haven't worked on 8" drives since the early 80's with th exception of the RX02 drives on my PDP-8. And DEC worked their own "magic" on those drives :) Thanks for the help. On 1/31/2024 3:59 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/31/24 13:03, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> Michael, >> >> Thank you, that was what I was planning as my next step.  I haven't >> checked to see if the service manual has a full schematic. >> >> The main purpose of my message on here was to see if I was missing >> something obvious like an option trace cut or something like that that I >> missed when I checked the manual. >> >> Thanks again, > Mike - > > There is indeed a schematic in the 842 service manual PDF page 87 is > what you're looking for. Since the LEDs are always powered, you need > only be concerned with the output of the phototransistor. DMM is fine; > no scope necessary. An opto going bad is not completely unknown on > these drives. (I have a couple of the 842s--good drives, otherwise) > > Diskette drives really are non-intelligent devices... > > --Chuck > > --===============4521838638851429359==-- From doug@doughq.com Wed Jan 31 23:58:06 2024 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A little help please Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2024 10:49:07 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2981356952525512863==" --===============2981356952525512863== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kevin, Often that is because you signed up using an old email that is forwarded to your current email - Have a look at the message headers to see which email it is sending messages to. You can then log into the list manager with that email and remove yourself. it is particularly tricky for me, as I run about 7 different email aliases depending on the environment I am in at any time. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 18:41, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > Could someone kindly delete me from this list.. > The mailing list software says it does not know me and yet I am getting > emails :) > > Thanks > K. > > Ps: appreciate the help. > > --===============2981356952525512863==--