From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 1 00:31:15 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2023 17:31:03 -0700 Message-ID: <2c90923c-f9bc-9bbc-39ce-3d6f03c758a6@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0407550522334796159==" --===============0407550522334796159== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/31/23 16:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > They were available with a variety of connectors. > Some of those switchboxes had a short flat wire with spade lugs as > output for connecting to the TV, and for input had screw terminal > antenna input, and RCA for the RF input from the RF modulator. > the Wikipedia article for the Sup'R'Mod II has a picture of one such. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod > My first experience with cable TV, provided free, in an apartment that I was renting was two coax cables coming from a wall plate, connected to a switchbox. No set-top box in those days--and no commercials. When the management decided that free cable was too generous, you could still have it if you paid an extra fee with your rent. They were sending service guys to disconnect those who didn't take them up on the offer. I suspected that they were simply removing the coax cables from the splitter in the wall cavity, so I removed them myself and stashed them away. The service people showed up and looked around the apartment and said "Oh, I guess we've been here already." After they left, I hooked the coax back up... Confessions of an ill-spent youth. --Chuck --Chuck --===============0407550522334796159==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 00:55:05 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000 Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 08:54:48 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2476f6d0-a77f-8a53-0efd-984012329736@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7268869494242468428==" --===============7268869494242468428== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have one Interprocessor Buffer (M8326). Of course just one won't help to connect my Lab-8/e and my PDP-8/e. :-( On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, 12:49 am Mike Katz via cctalk, wrote: > DEC did make the Interprocessor Buffer (M8326) for the Ominibus. That > allowed for relatively high speed communications between machines. You > could also do some kind of serial network like Lantastic. I know some > company made an SDLC board set for the omnibus. > > On 8/30/2023 8:04 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Aug 29, 2023, at 8:46 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> -BUT- That does not mean it *can't* be restored, only that $15,000 is > >>> ridiculous for a machine that clearly needs an expert with time and > money. > >>> b > >> True, it is a silly price. I was thinking about this on the forum: If > someone offers to buy one of my fully running 8/L's for 6k I'll put in an > offer on this one for 3k and restore it. The extra 3k will be used to buy > beer to help me forget about all of the little mouse ghosts I'm going to > find. :-) > >> > >> I'd offer 3k for it outright, but to be honest I can't have 3 pdp8/L's > AND an 8/e. At some point I'd have to wire them into some sort of nightmare > SMP pdp8.... > > Or DECnet/8, though I suspect an 8/L can't run that. > > > > paul > > > > --===============7268869494242468428==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 03:56:45 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 04:56:11 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5683607817986338412==" --===============5683607817986338412== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 7:49=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if Removed" tags were and are illegal. The > > warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the thing you did resul= ted > > in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :) > > eventually codified in the Magnuson-Moss warranty Act, enacted in 1975, > just a few years before RS started pasting those stickers on.. > > But, they didn't say that modifications voided the warranty, . . . > the warranty was only voided if the sticker was damaged. I would love to know how removing an external sticker over a screwhead (and doing nothing else) could cause an IC inside the machine to fail. As the latter is the sort of thing you claim warranty on, removing the sticker have no bearing on the validity of said warranty. I did manage to get one of those stickers off in one piece. I stored it on the backing paper of some rub-down letter transfers (remember those?) and never put it back after I completed the modifications/repairs. My idea was I'd put it on a unit I'd been inside if I did want to claim on th warranty. Never did that, I might still have it somewhere. -tony --===============5683607817986338412==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 04:00:46 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 04:59:42 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6128282547321470307==" --===============6128282547321470307== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 9:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic > diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the > schematic on it if a transistor goes bad.... And they would sell spare parts and service manuals for just about everything they sold. Their pocket computers were of course essentially re-badged Sharp and Casio machines. Getting the service manuals from the original companies was moderately harder than getting defence secrets. Getting the manuals from Tandy/Radio Shack was simply a matter of ordering them at the local shop. -tony --===============6128282547321470307==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Sep 1 04:45:33 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 04:45:27 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3004369985287251199==" --===============3004369985287251199== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think you might be confusing a law argument with a logic argument. =F0=9F= =A4=93 The 2 are not related. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 31, 2023, at 21:00, Tony Duell via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 9:53=E2=80=AFPM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >>=20 >> Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic >> diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the >> schematic on it if a transistor goes bad.... >=20 > And they would sell spare parts and service manuals for just about > everything they sold. >=20 > Their pocket computers were of course essentially re-badged Sharp and > Casio machines. Getting the service manuals from the original > companies was moderately harder than getting defence secrets. Getting > the manuals from Tandy/Radio Shack was simply a matter of ordering > them at the local shop. >=20 > -tony --===============3004369985287251199==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Sep 1 07:30:46 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 09:30:33 +0200 Message-ID: <38a3eb24-2fc6-c0d-b5e8-226aebdf3615@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <604148420.987782.1693112541843@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8205093483757972033==" --===============8205093483757972033== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 27 Aug 2023, Mark Linimon wrote: > The 960B is the only computer I ever walked away from and said "I can't > do this". This was mostly, but not entirely, due to the Silent 700 and > its cassette tapes. > > It took 20 minutes to load the loader, and, then, if I got that right, > 20 minutes to load the editor, and *then* I could start doing work. This would be my exact setup ;-) I have the 960B (without software :-(( ) and a Silent 700 ASR with cassette unit. A real beauty! I just can't believe that no other system with software has survived. But apparently, this system is much rarer (and much more interesting) than an Apple 1 ;-)) Christian --===============8205093483757972033==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Sep 1 07:44:10 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 09:44:03 +0200 Message-ID: <67a76274-5c4b-96c7-3676-fd4babbeeee8@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <75892cd7-b5c6-8a84-cc8b-572847206303@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8046374132565965253==" --===============8046374132565965253== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote: > Composite will 99.999999% of the time be better than RF modulated due to th= e=20 > bandwidth of NTSC (American) Televisions.=C2=A0 The NTSC television standar= d was=20 > not what I would exactly call high tech or high resolution.=C2=A0 It was 52= 5 scan=20 > lines interlaced at 30Hz meaning that there was only 262.5 lines every 60th That is not NTSC. NTSC only defines how to encode colors in a composite=20 signal. It does not define any resolution or so. What you mean is the CCIR norm, for the US it is norm M with the color=20 carrier at about 3.58 MHz, 525 lines with a bandwidth of about 4 MHz (and=20 *this* is the limiting factor for the horizontal resolution). > might get 640 x 480 with alot of flicker.=C2=A0 If you want color the resol= ution=20 > went way down due to the way that the NTSC standard handled colors to be=20 > backwards compatible with black and white televisions. No, not at all. The resolution of the luminance signal was absolutely the=20 same. Christian --===============8046374132565965253==-- From rgrabau1@verizon.net Fri Sep 1 13:42:00 2023 From: Bob Grabau To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 09:41:43 -0400 Message-ID: <705d4bc4-5bbb-039f-4c48-f1cda505bb2a@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <4995ef7e-bd52-607f-25e2-7261e3eab6c3@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2228476850444111142==" --===============2228476850444111142== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Back in the day, I could not afford a terminal. All I could afford was=20 a Polymorphic video card and a real cheap keyboard to connect to my=20 IMSAI 8080 (with a memory card borrowed from a friend that eventually I=20 bought from him). This was in the 1970's, and I was still in the Navy=20 and my pay was minimal at best. Bob On 8/30/2023 4:15 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > /115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at=20 > the top end/ >=20 > That is true.=C2=A0 I remember setting my serial board for external baud ra= te=20 > and the SWTPC CT-82 terminal to generate the baud rate and I think it=20 > was like 38,400 maximum. >=20 > My VT-220 maxes out at 9600 and my VT-330+ maxes out at 19,200. >=20 > Remember the teletypes ran at 110 baud or slower.=C2=A0 The decwrite and GE= =20 > Terminet were speed demons at 300 and 1200 baud. >=20 > On 8/30/2023 3:02 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 1:52=E2=80=AFPM Mike Katz via cctalk=20 >> wrote: >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 syst= em. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Why? >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 The video board/monitor is much faster than a = terminal even at >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 115,200 baud. >> >> >> 115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at=20 >> the top end. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way ch= eaper back then >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 than a >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Sie= gler ADM-3A >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 kits, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap). >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 If the video board supports any kind of graphi= cs that is another >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reason.=C2=A0 The Gimix video board supported graphics = with a RAM >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 character >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 generator. >> >> >> 4. It's a lot less code to directly splat characters into memory than=20 >> to generate >> all the escape sequences you need to 'draw' anything interesting (be=20 >> it a game, >> a graph or just an emacs buffer). >> >> I got into this just after the S100 era, and I opted for the Rainbow=20 >> because it >> was both a terminal I could connect to other systems, and a system=20 >> with an >> internal graphics card. The terminal had completed the move inside the=20 >> computer >> after starting out life as a computer added onto the terminal. DECs=20 >> terminals >> followed this path. Many of the S100 systems that had graphics cards=20 >> were also >> chasing after newish workstations that were just starting to be built. >> >> Warner >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Hi all, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came wi= th a video >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally= equipped >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of = having a >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and= terminal. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that wo= uld be a >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the key= board, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific applicat= ion. But I >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 don't understand the video monitor. I could understand = maybe if >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 there was an RF modulator so that you could use a stand= ard TV. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 That would save the builder some money. But this comput= er just >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 provides composite. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Other than graphics (and maybe some special function = keys for an >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder = in those >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Thanks for the bandwidth. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > 73 Eugene W2HX >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >> --=20 Bob Grabau http://www.astrohbg.org http://www.cherrysprings.org Our Star Party for 2024: June 6-9, 2024 at Cherry Springs State Park, PA --===============2228476850444111142==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 14:26:10 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 07:25:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4721163168393078382==" --===============4721163168393078382== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 1:53=E2=80=AFPM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic > diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the > schematic on it if a transistor goes bad.... > > CZ > Of course, because they want to encourage you to open it and thereby void the warranty. Sellam --===============4721163168393078382==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 14:40:28 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 10:40:12 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7862084942465260456==" --===============7862084942465260456== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have been on hold with customer service now for almost 19 months. On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 10:26 AM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 1:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic > > diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the > > schematic on it if a transistor goes bad.... > > > > CZ > > > > Of course, because they want to encourage you to open it and thereby void > the warranty. > > Sellam > --===============7862084942465260456==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Sep 1 14:50:56 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Anybody got an Emulex QD21? Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 09:50:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <316fe3a4-362c-7632-da4a-1fed9c775eea@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0918575469812403578==" --===============0918575469812403578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I will be going to the VCF - MW.  Does anybody have an Emulex QD21 that could dump a hard drive for me?  I ran a uVAX II at home of 21 years.  Sometime back about 2000 or so, I upgraded to a cast-off SCSI disk, which eventually died.  I didn't have a convenient backup solution for the SCSI disk, so the old 600 MB ESDI drive is kind of my most recent backup.  I have a copy of VMS 4.7 on that. It would be great if somebody could recover what is on that drive.  If I were to set up the uVAX II here, I would not have a very good way to get the data off the drive except the serial port - that might take a WHILE! thanks, Jon --===============0918575469812403578==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Fri Sep 1 15:31:32 2023 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 15:31:27 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21816EDD590C7941008C6CDEE4E4A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2750447507566271416==" --===============2750447507566271416== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do understand the warranty sticker. Say we have the average computer buyer.= He has a screw driver and mostly knows how to use it. He also went to Radio = Shack ( long gone =F0=9F=99=81 ) and bought a cheap soldering iron. He is now= fully equipped to repair what ever is wrong with his box. ( obviously not at= Tony's level of competence ) He takes the cover off and has no idea what he = is looking at or what he is looking for. ( I think we have all been there at = one time ) He sees something with a screw driver slot. He has a screw driver.= Perhaps all it needs is a minor adjustment. He turns the screw one way, and = nothing changes. He turns it the other way and, pop, some smoke comes out of = the other side of the chassis. Oh well, it is under warranty so he goes to sends it in for warranty repair b= ut, dang!, he broke that warranty seal. If we want to have it repaired under warranty, we don't need to know what fai= led ( just curious ). If we expect to fix it ourselves, we bought it. There i= s value in learning how to fix it ourselves but the price is the warranty sti= cker. I except that and will open it up anyway. I just can't stop myself. I n= eed to know what failed and often can fix it myself. Dwight ________________________________ From: Wayne S via cctalk Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2023 9:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Wayne S Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors I think you might be confusing a law argument with a logic argument. =F0=9F= =A4=93 The 2 are not related. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 31, 2023, at 21:00, Tony Duell via cctalk = wrote: > > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 9:53=E2=80=AFPM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic >> diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the >> schematic on it if a transistor goes bad.... > > And they would sell spare parts and service manuals for just about > everything they sold. > > Their pocket computers were of course essentially re-badged Sharp and > Casio machines. Getting the service manuals from the original > companies was moderately harder than getting defence secrets. Getting > the manuals from Tandy/Radio Shack was simply a matter of ordering > them at the local shop. > > -tony --===============2750447507566271416==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 15:43:20 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 16:42:58 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941A5851208272FA5D8BDF1A3E4A=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5466129726637089157==" --===============5466129726637089157== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 4:31=E2=80=AFPM dwight via cctalk wrote: > > I do understand the warranty sticker. Say we have the average computer buye= r. He has a screw driver and mostly knows how to use it. He also went to Radi= o Shack ( long gone =F0=9F=99=81 ) and bought a cheap soldering iron. He is n= ow fully equipped to repair what ever is wrong with his box. ( obviously not = at Tony's level of competence ) He takes the cover off and has no idea what h= e is looking at or what he is looking for. ( I think we have all been there a= t one time ) He sees something with a screw driver slot. He has a screw drive= r. Perhaps all it needs is a minor adjustment. He turns the screw one way, an= d nothing changes. He turns it the other way and, pop, some smoke comes out o= f the other side of the chassis. You clearly know the TRS-80 Model 1 (or are a good guesser). There are 4 presets ('things wth a screwdriver slot) on the Model 1 logic board. Two of them are associated with delays on the horizontal and vertical sync signals. Adusting those can cure a video-going-off-screen issue. The other 2? They set the output voltage of the +12V and +5V regulators. There is no overvoltage protection on the former, turn that too hgh and you may wipe out all the DRAMs. The latter has a fat zener across the output, but I am not sure I trust it. And if you turn the +5V line up you could be looking to replace a lot of ICs... -tony --===============5466129726637089157==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Fri Sep 1 15:51:06 2023 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 15:45:40 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB5269D65F05C6EC07FE930EECB5E6A=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8100403827364250839==" --===============8100403827364250839== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transfo= rmer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer f= or the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and found one that wo= uld work. The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they on= ly made sewing machines ). Dwight ________________________________ From: W2HX via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 2:08 PM To: William Sudbrink ; 'General Discussion: On-Top= ic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Ok great info, everyone. Thanks for the information! 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos -----Original Message----- From: William Sudbrink Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 5:06 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: W2HX Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the = composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and Dad= probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't). -----Original Message----- From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'W2HX' ; William Sudbrink Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (= on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board= that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will f= ind references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manua= ls for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio = Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A Syste= m" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulato= r and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back the= n. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the b= ack of the TV) for noise reasons. -----Original Message----- From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a ke= yboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying = to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using = a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, t= hat would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, = ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there w= as an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the b= uilder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application = on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video c= ard instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============8100403827364250839==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Sep 1 15:54:36 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Anybody got an Emulex QD21? Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 17:54:20 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5032316073361664103==" --===============5032316073361664103== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you can't get help at the VCF - MW (which I don't doubt), and your MicroVAx II has a DELQA or DEQNA network adapter, then I know of two other elegant ways to back up the data from your ESDI disk: Either: configure your MicroVAX II into a Local Area VAXcluster using the instruction in https://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing,_Configuring,_and_Testing_A_VMS_V4.7_Loca= l_Area_VAXcluster_on_SIMH or: follow the blog at https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2021/09/vaxstation-1-software-install-part-1.html and https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2023/08/installing-software-on-microvax-and.html Don't hesitate to ask for help; the first alternative is my work, and I worked a little on the second one. Ulli P.S. I own a QD21 (but no working ESDI drive), but I will not attend the VCF - MW, because I live in Germany ... Am Fr., 1. Sept. 2023 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Jon Elson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > I will be going to the VCF - MW. Does anybody have an > Emulex QD21 that could dump a hard drive for me? I ran a > uVAX II at home of 21 years. Sometime back about 2000 or > so, I upgraded to a cast-off SCSI disk, which eventually > died. I didn't have a convenient backup solution for the > SCSI disk, so the old 600 MB ESDI drive is kind of my most > recent backup. I have a copy of VMS 4.7 on that. > > It would be great if somebody could recover what is on that > drive. If I were to set up the uVAX II here, I would not > have a very good way to get the data off the drive except > the serial port - that might take a WHILE! > > thanks, > > Jon > > --===============5032316073361664103==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 16:02:51 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 17:02:35 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941686DB13E97D76763FA08A3E4A=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0284061050957749753==" --===============0284061050957749753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 4:51=E2=80=AFPM dwight via cctalk wrote: > > My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. > I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a trans= former power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer= for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and found one that = would work. The original TRS-80 model 1 monitor was based on a live-chassis (hot chassis?) RCA TV set. The USA version had an optoisolator circuit on the video input, the LED driver circuit was powered from the +5V line in the computer (hence the +5V on one pin of the video DIN socket). As the TV was designed for 115V mains only, the European version has a step-down transformer on the AC input. They used an isolating transformer, meaning there was no need to isolate the video input in the European models. Philips made a viewdata termal set where the colour monitor was a modified KT3 television. The power supply in that starts by bridge rectifying the mains input, meaning the chassis is dangerously live no matter which way round the mains is connected. The solution to that was a 240V 300mA (or so) secondary winding on the mains transformer in the the viewdate terminal unit. This provided an isolated AC supply to the monitor, so the chassis of the latter could be earthed. > The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they = only made sewing machines ). Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am sure I've seen calculators batched 'Singer Friden'). And I have a telecoms test tone genrator that's badged 'Singer' (I assume the same company) -tony --===============0284061050957749753==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 16:07:00 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 17:06:42 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2569601789347687908==" --===============2569601789347687908== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Singer certainly had a place in early computing. But was it the same Singer that made sewing machines ? On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 5:02=E2=80=AFPM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 4:51=E2=80=AFPM dwight via cctalk > wrote: > > > > My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. > > I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a > transformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a > transformer for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and > found one that would work. > > > The original TRS-80 model 1 monitor was based on a live-chassis (hot > chassis?) RCA TV set. The USA version had an optoisolator circuit on > the video input, the LED driver circuit was powered from the +5V line > in the computer (hence the +5V on one pin of the video DIN socket). As > the TV was designed for 115V mains only, the European version has a > step-down transformer on the AC input. They used an isolating > transformer, meaning there was no need to isolate the video input in > the European models. > > Philips made a viewdata termal set where the colour monitor was a > modified KT3 television. The power supply in that starts by bridge > rectifying the mains input, meaning the chassis is dangerously live no > matter which way round the mains is connected. The solution to that > was a 240V 300mA (or so) secondary winding on the mains transformer in > the the viewdate terminal unit. This provided an isolated AC supply to > the monitor, so the chassis of the latter could be earthed. > > > > > > > The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought > they only made sewing machines ). > > Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am > sure I've seen calculators batched 'Singer Friden'). And I have a > telecoms test tone genrator that's badged 'Singer' (I assume the same > company) > > -tony > --===============2569601789347687908==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 1 17:16:16 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 10:16:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1680154837707362495==" --===============1680154837707362495== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/1/23 09:02, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they= only made sewing machines ). >=20 > Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am > sure I've seen calculators batched 'Singer Friden'). And I have a > telecoms test tone genrator that's badged 'Singer' (I assume the same > company) >=20 I've seen desktop card readers with the "Singer" badge as well as printers. Singer purchased Friden in 1965, but continued the Friden brand on some items until 1974. -Chuck --===============1680154837707362495==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 1 17:18:31 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 10:18:19 -0700 Message-ID: <376ca1dc-2aa4-43d7-de32-07ee4b644d58@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1433427536266633530==" --===============1433427536266633530== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/1/23 09:06, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > Singer certainly had a place in early computing. But was it the same Singer > that made sewing machines ? > Yes, the sewing machine maker (also purchased Link). The small card reader even sounded like a sewing machine when running. --Chuck --===============1433427536266633530==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Sep 1 17:23:26 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 12:23:21 -0500 Message-ID: <1861205772.167191.1693589001885@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4981887940712990980==" --===============4981887940712990980== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They made pistols: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-mac= hine-company-45-pistol-gun/ Will >=20 > On 9/1/23 09:02, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >=20 > >> The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought th= ey only made sewing machines ). --===============4981887940712990980==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 17:26:14 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 10:18:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7259221812863198924==" --===============7259221812863198924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I did manage to get one of those stickers off in one piece. I stored > it on the backing paper of some rub-down letter transfers (remember > those?) and never put it back after I completed the > modifications/repairs. My idea was I'd put it on a unit I'd been > inside if I did want to claim on th warranty. Never did that, I might > still have it somewhere. This week I installed a cooling fan in my Commodore 128DCR. I've been inside that unit twice in the last couple months to replace the power supply and then solder the leads and mount the fan. The warranty sticker remains undisturbed. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- I have but two things to say to you: Celery and Sidewalk. -- Michel Rivard= - --===============7259221812863198924==-- From rickb@bensene.com Fri Sep 1 17:29:53 2023 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 17:29:46 +0000 Message-ID: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346704D6D945A@mail2.bensene.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2534890865548237399==" --===============2534890865548237399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony wrote: > Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am sure I'v= e seen calculators=20 > batched(sic) 'Singer Friden').=20 Yup. In July of 1963, Singer announced its intent to purchase Friden. The d= eal closed in October. It was all a part of a larger diversification move on the part of Singer that= began in the early 1960's. Friden employees in general were not at all happy about the acquisition, espe= cially those in design and engineering. =20 Fortunately, the Singer management was far away, and only made occasional vis= its. But, as is inevitable, the important Friden culture started to be erod= ed. =20 Singer effectively began the death of internal electronic calculator developm= ent at Friden when it quietly started selling the transistorized Friden 1112 = electronic calculator, which was made in Japan by Hitachi, purchased under a = temporary OEM agreement between Singer and Hitachi. =20 The 1112 was an experiment to see how well the machine sold. It did reasonab= ly well, and that was enough for Singer to slowly begin to dismantle the Frid= en electronic calculator development operation, and start selling OEM-acquire= d (from Hitachi initially) calculators under the Singer/Friden badge. =20 The Friden 1154 electronic printing programmable calculator was the last full= y-Friden-designed & built electronic calculator developed. =20 The later Friden 1155 was a design that was farmed out to an independent desi= gn/development company, which was told to re-use as much from the 1154 as pos= sible. After that, all of the calculators were acquired under OEM agreements= from other companies, and by that time, most of the brain trust that made Fr= iden's wonderful and unusual electronic calculators had left. =20 In the fall of 1975, Singer shuttered all Friden operations, ending the legac= y of Friden. =20 --===============2534890865548237399==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 1 17:38:59 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 13:38:29 -0400 Message-ID: <6EF58DE3-71EC-4C20-9757-903597B1AF61@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <1861205772.167191.1693589001885@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8674150638142093269==" --===============8674150638142093269== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > They made pistols: > https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-m= achine-company-45-pistol-gun/ >=20 > Will Lots of companies made weapons during WW2. M1 carbines were made by Rock-Ola= , Pitney-Bowes, IBM, GM, Underwood Typewriters, and several others. That's a= n IBM product I'd love to find... paul --===============8674150638142093269==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 17:41:40 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 18:41:22 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346704D6D945A@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4300654510920237855==" --===============4300654510920237855== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 6:29=E2=80=AFPM Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > Tony wrote: > > > Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am sure I= 've seen calculators > > batched(sic) 'Singer Friden'). > Singer effectively began the death of internal electronic calculator develo= pment at Friden when it quietly started selling the transistorized Friden 111= 2 electronic calculator, which was made in Japan by Hitachi, purchased under = a temporary OEM agreement between Singer and Hitachi. > > The 1112 was an experiment to see how well the machine sold. It did reason= ably well, and that was enough for Singer to slowly begin to dismantle the Fr= iden electronic calculator development operation, and start selling OEM-acqui= red (from Hitachi initially) calculators under the Singer/Friden badge. By coincidence I bought a Hitachi KK521 (later version with vacuum fluorescent display tubes, not Nixies) a couple of weeks back. I read that it was also sold as the Friden EC1117A. -tony --===============4300654510920237855==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 1 17:51:51 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 10:42:14 -0700 Message-ID: <48d8c457-d50a-82d8-42ae-7e0b4a70bd78@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1861205772.167191.1693589001885@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2780785443749074419==" --===============2780785443749074419== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/1/23 10:23, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > They made pistols: > https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-m= achine-company-45-pistol-gun/ >=20 I love these seeming corporate mismatches. You know, Exxon purchasing Zilog (and a number of other unrelated businesses). My favorite was Ex-cell-o, starting business as a machine tool maker, making waxed-paper milk cartons and purchasing disk maker Bryant. But then we also have Ball Brothers, they of the canning (Mason) jars, going into aerospace and making OEM "kit" monitors... --Chuck --===============2780785443749074419==-- From rickb@bensene.com Fri Sep 1 17:53:11 2023 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 17:53:04 +0000 Message-ID: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346704D6D9494@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7432924706876509189==" --===============7432924706876509189== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to add, interestingly, Singer also purchased General Precision from Libr= ascope.=20 Librascope/General Precision were the folks that had earlier acquired Royal-M= cBee. Royal-McBee developed the wonderful (some consider the first "personal= " computer) LGP-30 vacuum-tube, magnetic drum computer that was designed by M= anhattan Project theoretical physicist Stanley Frankel. Frankel had quite a legacy in the world of computing, having contributed to t= he design of the delay-line-based Packard Bell PB-250(with Max Palevsky), and= development of a custom high-speed computer for Continental Oil Company call= ed CONAC (used for data reduction of sounding operations search for oil depos= its). =20 Frankel also developed an early electronic calculator design that was purchas= ed by Smith Corona/Marchant (SCM) and produced as the CRT-display SCM Cogito = 240 calculator, augmented with Square Root as to Cogito 240SR.=20 Frankel also collaborated with SCM on the development of the logic for the fi= rst set of LSI integrated circuits that were used in the later Nixie-tube dis= play Cogito calculators. =20 He also developed a very interesting calculator, based somewhat on the princi= ples of the LGP-30 computer for Diehl in West Germany. The machine was full= y transistorized and used only 142 transistors in its logic. It was based on= magnetostrictive delay lines (two of them), and was a fully microcoded archi= tecture, I believe the first electronic calculator to be completely microcode= d. Since read-only memory (for the microcode) was either physically very large, = or complex and expensive to build at the time (diode ROM, wire rope ROM), the= microcode was loaded into the calculator at power-up time from a two channel= punched metal tape. One channel provided the clocking, and the other chann= el provided the bits. =20 It took just under a minute from when the calculator was powered on until the= microcode was loaded into a delay line, and from there, all operations of th= e machine were controlled by the microcode in the delay line.=20 The machine was able to be implemented with so few transistors because the mi= crocode word was quite wide, and was designed so that it was sequentially int= erpreted as the bits streamed out of the delay line, so not all that many fli= p flops were needed. Working registers were stored in the other delay line, = along with program steps (yes, the machine was programmable). =20 The design was very elegant. The machine debuted as the Diehl Combitron, a= nd the cool thing about its design was that it was really easy to augment by = just changing the microcode tape (which was quite easily done...bugfixes coul= d be easly installed even by end-users, though such was discouraged). =20 Soon after the Combitron was introduced, an augmented version was introduced = called the Combitron-S that added a small amount of I/O circuitry and additi= onal microcode to implement operations to allow the addition of an external p= unched paper tape reader/punch. An interesting aspect of electronic calculator history is that there are a nu= mber of people whose names pop up at various points in time during the evolut= ion of the technology. Frankel was one of those, along with a cast of a few = others, all of whom had major impacts in the realm of electronic calculator (= and the eventual evolution of the electronic calculator into what became the = microcontroller/microprocessor that spurred the development of the personal c= omputer). --===============7432924706876509189==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Sep 1 18:01:19 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 13:01:15 -0500 Message-ID: <2414043.170083.1693591275474@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <48d8c457-d50a-82d8-42ae-7e0b4a70bd78@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0960462986532572550==" --===============0960462986532572550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 09/01/2023 12:42 PM CDT Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 9/1/23 10:23, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > They made pistols: > > https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing= -machine-company-45-pistol-gun/ > >=20 > I love these seeming corporate mismatches. You know, Exxon purchasing > Zilog (and a number of other unrelated businesses). My favorite was > Ex-cell-o, starting business as a machine tool maker, making waxed-paper > milk cartons and purchasing disk maker Bryant. >=20 > But then we also have Ball Brothers, they of the canning (Mason) jars, > going into aerospace and making OEM "kit" monitors... >=20 > --Chuck My favorite is Votrax (speech synthesizers) being a division of Federal Screw= Works. Will If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't a= ssign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless imme= nsity of the sea. Antoine de Saint-Exupery --===============0960462986532572550==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 18:18:28 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 19:18:11 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346704D6D9494@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7374793815257868703==" --===============7374793815257868703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Interesting that processors are getting wider and wider, whilst (perhaps not in the same timeframe) we have moved away from parallel interfaces towards serial ones. I know there are reasons for that in operations-per-cycle and the difficulty of synchronising wide busses off-chip but I wonder if those sweetspots will change again. On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 6:53 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Just to add, interestingly, Singer also purchased General Precision from > Librascope. > Librascope/General Precision were the folks that had earlier acquired > Royal-McBee. Royal-McBee developed the wonderful (some consider the first > "personal" computer) LGP-30 vacuum-tube, magnetic drum computer that was > designed by Manhattan Project theoretical physicist Stanley Frankel. > > Frankel had quite a legacy in the world of computing, having contributed > to the design of the delay-line-based Packard Bell PB-250(with Max > Palevsky), and development of a custom high-speed computer for Continental > Oil Company called CONAC (used for data reduction of sounding operations > search for oil deposits). > > Frankel also developed an early electronic calculator design that was > purchased by Smith Corona/Marchant (SCM) and produced as the CRT-display > SCM Cogito 240 calculator, augmented with Square Root as to Cogito 240SR. > > Frankel also collaborated with SCM on the development of the logic for the > first set of LSI integrated circuits that were used in the later Nixie-tube > display Cogito calculators. > > He also developed a very interesting calculator, based somewhat on the > principles of the LGP-30 computer for Diehl in West Germany. The machine > was fully transistorized and used only 142 transistors in its logic. It > was based on magnetostrictive delay lines (two of them), and was a fully > microcoded architecture, I believe the first electronic calculator to be > completely microcoded. > > Since read-only memory (for the microcode) was either physically very > large, or complex and expensive to build at the time (diode ROM, wire rope > ROM), the microcode was loaded into the calculator at power-up time from a > two channel punched metal tape. One channel provided the clocking, and > the other channel provided the bits. > > It took just under a minute from when the calculator was powered on until > the microcode was loaded into a delay line, and from there, all operations > of the machine were controlled by the microcode in the delay line. > > The machine was able to be implemented with so few transistors because the > microcode word was quite wide, and was designed so that it was sequentially > interpreted as the bits streamed out of the delay line, so not all that > many flip flops were needed. Working registers were stored in the other > delay line, along with program steps (yes, the machine was programmable). > > The design was very elegant. The machine debuted as the Diehl > Combitron, and the cool thing about its design was that it was really easy > to augment by just changing the microcode tape (which was quite easily > done...bugfixes could be easly installed even by end-users, though such was > discouraged). > > Soon after the Combitron was introduced, an augmented version was > introduced called the Combitron-S that added a small amount of I/O > circuitry and additional microcode to implement operations to allow the > addition of an external punched paper tape reader/punch. > > An interesting aspect of electronic calculator history is that there are a > number of people whose names pop up at various points in time during the > evolution of the technology. Frankel was one of those, along with a cast > of a few others, all of whom had major impacts in the realm of electronic > calculator (and the eventual evolution of the electronic calculator into > what became the microcontroller/microprocessor that spurred the development > of the personal computer). > > --===============7374793815257868703==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 1 18:35:38 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 11:35:32 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346704D6D9494@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6703403740953586008==" --===============6703403740953586008== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And, of course, there was the incredible Friden Flexowriter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friden_Flexowriter It was used as a computer console, as well as stand-alone paper-tape typewriter, and dominated the market of form letter mass mailings until superceded by the IBM MTST. (A friend was trying to write a word processing program, with form letter capabilities that he wanted to call "The FULL ST" (as opposed to "empty ST")) Friden was acquired by Singer in 1965. Singer Motors was apparently unrelated to Singer Sewing machines. Singer Motors made bicycles, motorscooters and motorcycles from 1874, and cars until 1970. It was significant in the creation of Aston-Martin, and bought by Rootes Group in 1955 (which was acquired by Chrysler in mid 1960s) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6703403740953586008==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 1 18:39:32 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 14:39:24 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5001503737089062904==" --===============5001503737089062904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 1, 2023, at 2:18 PM, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Interesting that processors are getting wider and wider, whilst (perhaps > not in the same timeframe) we have moved away from parallel interfaces > towards serial ones. I know there are reasons for that in > operations-per-cycle and the difficulty of synchronising wide busses > off-chip but I wonder if those sweetspots will change again. I remember when, in the early days of Ethernet (1981 or so) someone in DEC su= ggested moving towards Ethernet as the I/O interconnect. That didn't go anyw= here -- which makes sense if you remember an Ethernet interface in those days= looked like a DEUNA -- two hex boards -- and run at only 10 Mb/s. Of course= it wasn't too many years after that it started to make sense for terminals (= LAT terminal servers), and not long after that at least for some storage devi= ces (LAVC and InfoServer). There's actually a pull in two opposite directions. One is to put more stuff= within a chip (System On Chip approach) and make the interconnects inside ve= ry wide, perhaps an entire L1 cache line wide. The Raza/NetLogic/Broadcom XL= R and its successors are a good example, very nice MIPS-64 SOCs. The other i= s to do off-chip interconnects serially at very high clock rates. Of course there are cases where serial isn't fast enough. The fastest Ethern= ets are an example, with their multi-lane transceiver buses. Another is the J= ESD204 standard, used in signal processing to connect A/D and D/A converters,= where you might be looking at multiple analog data streams, 14-16 bits wide,= multiple Gsamples/second. That might takes 2-8 serial links working togethe= r. For those, there isn't a requirement for alignment of the bits across the= wires, instead the data streams are reconstructed serially for each lane and= then aligned properly to form the words. So within reason the lanes may hav= e different propagation delay and still work. paul --===============5001503737089062904==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Sep 1 18:41:44 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 11:41:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346704D6D9494@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6621357939094229072==" --===============6621357939094229072== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 10:53 AM Rick Bensene via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > He also developed a very interesting calculator, based somewhat on the > principles of the LGP-30 computer for Diehl in West Germany. The machine > was fully transistorized and used only 142 transistors in its logic. It > was based on magnetostrictive delay lines (two of them), and was a fully > microcoded architecture, I believe the first electronic calculator to be > completely microcoded. > > Since read-only memory (for the microcode) was either physically very > large, or complex and expensive to build at the time (diode ROM, wire rope > ROM), the microcode was loaded into the calculator at power-up time from a > two channel punched metal tape. One channel provided the clocking, and > the other channel provided the bits. > > It took just under a minute from when the calculator was powered on until > the microcode was loaded into a delay line, and from there, all operations > of the machine were controlled by the microcode in the delay line. > > The machine was able to be implemented with so few transistors because the > microcode word was quite wide, and was designed so that it was sequentially > interpreted as the bits streamed out of the delay line, so not all that > many flip flops were needed. Working registers were stored in the other > delay line, along with program steps (yes, the machine was programmable). > > The design was very elegant. The machine debuted as the Diehl > Combitron, and the cool thing about its design was that it was really easy > to augment by just changing the microcode tape (which was quite easily > done...bugfixes could be easly installed even by end-users, though such was > discouraged). > > Soon after the Combitron was introduced, an augmented version was > introduced called the Combitron-S that added a small amount of I/O > circuitry and additional microcode to implement operations to allow the > addition of an external punched paper tape reader/punch. > That is just the coolest. Basically a desk-sized LGP-30-alike. Thanks for that history, Rick. Sellam --===============6621357939094229072==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 1 18:55:25 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 11:55:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941686DB13E97D76763FA08A3E4A=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5595071714399545841==" --===============5595071714399545841== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 1 Sep 2023, dwight via cctalk wrote: > My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. > I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a trans= former power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer= for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and found one that = would work. > The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they = only made sewing machines ). > Dwight Singer/Friden Flexowriter Singer made many things. But sewing machines were successful in the=20 market. --===============5595071714399545841==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Fri Sep 1 18:59:33 2023 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 19:59:27 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3288391373075138536==" --===============3288391373075138536== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/09/2023 19:39, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > There's actually a pull in two opposite directions. One is to put more stu= ff within a chip (System On Chip approach) and make the interconnects inside = very wide, perhaps an entire L1 cache line wide. The Raza/NetLogic/Broadcom = XLR and its successors are a good example, very nice MIPS-64 SOCs. The other= is to do off-chip interconnects serially at very high clock rates. Indeed. Internal interconnects are quite easy to keep a consistent=20 propagation delay. In a similar fashion, (i believe, correct me if i'm=20 wrong) most memory buses are also parallel. It's easy to keep the=20 propagation delay consistent when it's essentially baked into the=20 product. Things like expansion buses and "external" buses like USB can't=20 guarantee that the propagation delay is consistent, and as such, can't=20 operate at a significant speed. > Of course there are cases where serial isn't fast enough. The fastest Ethe= rnets are an example, with their multi-lane transceiver buses. Another is the= JESD204 standard, used in signal processing to connect A/D and D/A converter= s, where you might be looking at multiple analog data streams, 14-16 bits wid= e, multiple Gsamples/second. That might takes 2-8 serial links working toget= her. For those, there isn't a requirement for alignment of the bits across t= he wires, instead the data streams are reconstructed serially for each lane a= nd then aligned properly to form the words. So within reason the lanes may h= ave different propagation delay and still work. > > paul This is essentially how PCIe works. It's easier to take multiple high=20 speed serial streams, and reconstruct the data afterwards, than it is to=20 operate those lanes in a synchronous way. Logic is simpler, and=20 bandwidths are higher. Generally, the serial vs parallel problem has been solved by using=20 multiple serial streams in parallel. True parallel buses are really only=20 useful when latency is a bigger issue than throughput, as whilst serial=20 buses can be fast, it still takes a significant amount of time to=20 reconstruct the data into words, even if you can do a lot very quickly.=20 For most uses, that kind of low latency performance just isn't needed. Josh --===============3288391373075138536==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Fri Sep 1 19:07:57 2023 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Ball Brothers (was: Re: Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 11:58:48 -0700 Message-ID: <8157b628-da87-bc65-b61a-15f254278626@mainecoon.com> In-Reply-To: <48d8c457-d50a-82d8-42ae-7e0b4a70bd78@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3939752744467104155==" --===============3939752744467104155== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/1/23 10:42, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > But then we also have Ball Brothers, they of the canning (Mason) jars, > going into aerospace and making OEM "kit" monitors... At one point in the late 1970's, some division of Ball ended up buying the firm that did contract maintenance on our Novas and 16 bit Eclipses.  After the purchase the quality of the work took a nosedive, which led to one of my coworkers observing "Well, it kinda makes sense when you consider that they also make the garbage cans in the parking lot". -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…" --===============3939752744467104155==-- From legalize@xmission.com Fri Sep 1 19:14:05 2023 From: Richard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 13:13:59 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5178505979334590775==" --===============5178505979334590775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article you write: >And, of course, there was the incredible Friden Flexowriter. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friden_Flexowriter If someone wants one and will be attending VCFmw, I'll bring one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Terminals Wiki The Computer Graphics Museum Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --===============5178505979334590775==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 1 19:24:12 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ball Brothers (was: Re: Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 12:23:59 -0700 Message-ID: <9a1094df-aff2-b0c5-727c-657a4c6f34b3@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <8157b628-da87-bc65-b61a-15f254278626@mainecoon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4293521534943323446==" --===============4293521534943323446== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/1/23 11:58, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > At one point in the late 1970's, some division of Ball ended up buying > the firm that did contract maintenance on our Novas and 16 bit > Eclipses.  After the purchase the quality of the work took a nosedive, > which led to one of my coworkers observing "Well, it kinda makes sense > when you consider that they also make the garbage cans in the parking lot". A friend employed by Ball Aerospace used to receive every year, at Christmastime, a box of holiday-themed mason jars. Of course, Ball has long-since spun off its glass jar operation, although the Ball brand continues. An icon in Muncie, IN for many years, Ball State University was the result of the Ball brothers' commitment to the community. Used to be Ball State Teachers College, known by many as "Testicle Tech". --Chuck --===============4293521534943323446==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 1 19:38:29 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 12:38:20 -0700 Message-ID: <1673414b-f662-6a26-ad74-f78e5be7e9cb@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <48d8c457-d50a-82d8-42ae-7e0b4a70bd78@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3199066310410466991==" --===============3199066310410466991== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With all this talk about Friden and Singer, perhaps someone can help me jog my memory. We were working on a contract that, as remote terminals, included a card reader (singer) and a printing terminal (singer also). The terminal consisted of a leadscrew-fed printing head with a vertical typewheel rotating perpendicular to the (tractor-feed) paper. Said typewheel was in contact with an ink-soaked felt wheel. Carriage return was accomplished via a large spring. Utter steampunk simplicity. What I remember the printers most for was that every printing session started and ended with a page eject, as the ink from the constantly-spinning typewheel made a glorious streak on any stationary paper. I think the printers were eventually scrapped, but I wonder if anyone remembers them. Terminals involving card punching used Univac keypunches--the ones with the LCD display and buffer memory--you typed a card and then hit "feed" and the blank was punched all at once. Apparently, there was an option to hook the thing to a remote server. --Chuck --===============3199066310410466991==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 1 20:09:35 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ball Brothers (was: Re: Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 16:09:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9a1094df-aff2-b0c5-727c-657a4c6f34b3@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6127105319660404960==" --===============6127105319660404960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 1, 2023, at 3:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 9/1/23 11:58, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> At one point in the late 1970's, some division of Ball ended up buying >> the firm that did contract maintenance on our Novas and 16 bit >> Eclipses. After the purchase the quality of the work took a nosedive, >> which led to one of my coworkers observing "Well, it kinda makes sense >> when you consider that they also make the garbage cans in the parking lot". >=20 > A friend employed by Ball Aerospace used to receive every year, at > Christmastime, a box of holiday-themed mason jars. Of course, Ball has > long-since spun off its glass jar operation, although the Ball brand > continues. That's a bit like Coors, which makes beer and high quality ceramics. paul --===============6127105319660404960==-- From rawallis@panix.com Fri Sep 1 21:23:34 2023 From: Andy Wallis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ball Brothers Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 17:04:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9a1094df-aff2-b0c5-727c-657a4c6f34b3@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5212527050353760568==" --===============5212527050353760568== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-09-01 15:23, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > An icon in Muncie, IN for many years, Ball State University was the > result of the Ball brothers' commitment to the community. Used to be > Ball State Teachers College, known by many as "Testicle Tech". > > --Chuck I went to Ball State in the late 90s to get my degree in Computer Science. I got my interest in Sun workstations from there because they use Solaris on Intel 2.5.1 running on Gateway PCs for student lab. They also had Ultra 1 or Ultra 2 as the department NFS and NIS server. Duane Gran ran SolarisCentral.org out of his off-campus apartment before he graduated. I ended up working as a student operator/traffic assistant at the on-campus PBS station, WIPB-TV. I loved working at that station handling the media formats, VTR, and broadcast equipment. I never heard it being called Testicle Tech while I was there. -Andy Wallis --===============5212527050353760568==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Sep 1 22:18:23 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 17:18:18 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1673414b-f662-6a26-ad74-f78e5be7e9cb@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8733849038022088503==" --===============8733849038022088503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/1/23 14:38, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > With all this talk about Friden and Singer, perhaps someone can help me > jog my memory. We were working on a contract that, as remote terminals, > included a card reader (singer) and a printing terminal (singer also). > The terminal consisted of a leadscrew-fed printing head with a vertical > typewheel rotating perpendicular to the (tractor-feed) paper. Said > typewheel was in contact with an ink-soaked felt wheel. Carriage return > was accomplished via a large spring. Utter steampunk simplicity. > I remember a Kleinschmidt (I think) printer that had a wheel that spun on a horizontal shaft that was in front of the paper.  The wheel had a spline so that it turned synchronously with the shaft, but could be slid left and right, maybe by a toothed belt.  Then. I guess there was a hammer behind the paper that pressed it against the ribbon and type wheel when the right character passed by.  It printed at 30 chars/second.  I looked for this model online but didn't find anything. Jon --===============8733849038022088503==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Sep 1 22:23:59 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Anybody got an Emulex QD21? Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 17:23:53 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7826346932777491096==" --===============7826346932777491096== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/1/23 10:54, Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk wrote: > If you can't get help at the VCF - MW (which I don't doubt), and your > MicroVAx II has a DELQA or DEQNA network adapter, then I know of two other > elegant ways to back up the data from your ESDI disk: > Either: configure your MicroVAX II into a Local Area VAXcluster using the > instruction in > https://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing,_Configuring,_and_Testing_A_VMS_V4.7_Lo= cal_Area_VAXcluster_on_SIMH > or: follow the blog at > https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2021/09/vaxstation-1-software-install-part-1.html > and > https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2023/08/installing-software-on-microvax-and.html > > Don't hesitate to ask for help; the first alternative is my work, and I > worked a little on the second one. > VMS 4.7 did not support TCP/IP out of the box.=C2=A0 There were=20 add-ons for that.=C2=A0 They DID support DECNET, but I didn't=20 have any other computers that did.=C2=A0 I did have a DEQNA (I=20 think) at one time but don't have it now!=C2=A0 That would make=20 things a LOT easier. Thanks, Jon --===============7826346932777491096==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 1 22:33:04 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 16:32:57 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1216850896116786286==" --===============1216850896116786286== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-09-01 12:18 p.m., Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > Interesting that processors are getting wider and wider, whilst (perhaps > not in the same timeframe) we have moved away from parallel interfaces > towards serial ones. I know there are reasons for that in > operations-per-cycle and the difficulty of synchronising wide busses > off-chip but I wonder if those sweetspots will change again. >I think that way has been for a while. Having a hard time finding a 68B50 on ebay. All the modern serial devices (I can buy) seem to be serial interfaced. Sigh. Ben. PS: Is it me or was the 6850 ACIA the only simple and bug free uart around at the time with interupts. --===============1216850896116786286==-- From rickb@bensene.com Fri Sep 1 23:13:05 2023 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 23:12:57 +0000 Message-ID: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346704D6D954C@mail2.bensene.com> In-Reply-To: <1673414b-f662-6a26-ad74-f78e5be7e9cb@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6813796577203753572==" --===============6813796577203753572== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck wrote: > The terminal consisted of a leadscrew-fed printing head with a vertical typ= ewheel rotating=20 > perpendicular to the (tractor-feed) paper. Said typewheel was in contact w= ith an ink-soaked felt=20 > wheel. Carriage return was accomplished via a large spring. Utter steamp= unk simplicity. This alphanumeric printer was an extension of the printer internally develope= d by Friden for its first line of printing electronic calculators, the Friden= 115x series. See my online exhibit for one of the 115x calculators, the 1152 at https://ol= dcalculatormuseum.com/friden1152.html These kind of sucked because of there actually was an intermediate "print whe= el inker" drum between the ink-soaked cartridge-loaded ink-source, and the wh= eel. This intermediate wheel was made of a rubber compound that both A) degr= aded due to solvent in the ink, and B) degraded due to rubber's usual degrada= tion due to ozone in the atmosphere. In time, this intermediate roller turne= d into a wad of black, sticky goo that clogged up the works of the printer. = I have a number of Friden 115x calculators where this has happened, and repl= acing that roller is not easy to do, as it's a very precise diameter. I am = pretty sure that the alphanumeric version of this printer (which Singer/Fride= n also sold to OEM customers...not sure if they had many takers) had the same= intermediate drum that acted to transfer the ink from the ink roll to the pr= int wheel. In theory, it was kind of a neat design. In practice, it sucked.= One thing that was interesting is that the characters on the print wheel = were organized in a helical form to help offset the fact that that the carria= ge motion was constant (it didn't stop when the hammer was fired). The prin= t wheel for an alphanumeric version was larger in diameter to allow for the e= xtra characters beyond those used in a printing calculator. --===============6813796577203753572==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Sep 2 00:37:44 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ball Brothers (was: Re: Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 17:37:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0662949937392100419==" --===============0662949937392100419== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 1:09=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > On Sep 1, 2023, at 3:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 9/1/23 11:58, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > > > >> At one point in the late 1970's, some division of Ball ended up buying > >> the firm that did contract maintenance on our Novas and 16 bit > >> Eclipses. After the purchase the quality of the work took a nosedive, > >> which led to one of my coworkers observing "Well, it kinda makes sense > >> when you consider that they also make the garbage cans in the parking > lot". > > > > A friend employed by Ball Aerospace used to receive every year, at > > Christmastime, a box of holiday-themed mason jars. Of course, Ball has > > long-since spun off its glass jar operation, although the Ball brand > > continues. > > That's a bit like Coors, which makes beer and high quality ceramics. > > paul > Panasonic enters the conversation... Sellam --===============0662949937392100419==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Sep 2 00:44:09 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Anybody got an Emulex QD21? Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 20:43:38 -0400 Message-ID: <1289DFCA-C7EC-463D-9041-F3B7804EC05A@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9100400950105186605==" --===============9100400950105186605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 1, 2023, at 6:23 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On 9/1/23 10:54, Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk wrote: >> If you can't get help at the VCF - MW (which I don't doubt), and your >> MicroVAx II has a DELQA or DEQNA network adapter, then I know of two other >> elegant ways to back up the data from your ESDI disk: >> Either: configure your MicroVAX II into a Local Area VAXcluster using the >> instruction in >> https://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing,_Configuring,_and_Testing_A_VMS_V4.7_L= ocal_Area_VAXcluster_on_SIMH >> or: follow the blog at >> https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2021/09/vaxstation-1-software-install-part-1.ht= ml >> and >> https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2023/08/installing-software-on-microvax-and.html >>=20 >> Don't hesitate to ask for help; the first alternative is my work, and I >> worked a little on the second one. >>=20 > VMS 4.7 did not support TCP/IP out of the box. There were add-ons for that= . They DID support DECNET, but I didn't have any other computers that did. = I did have a DEQNA (I think) at one time but don't have it now! That would m= ake things a LOT easier. A DMV-11 would also work, I think. Those aren't great (max speed is 56k) but= better than a serial line. paul --===============9100400950105186605==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Sat Sep 2 02:25:54 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] SDF Interim Computer Festival Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 19:19:36 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6215338395968097030==" --===============6215338395968097030== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI, SDF retro computing and home brew exhibition is scheduled for September = 30 to October 1 in Seattle WA . Link to the exhibit is at https://sdf.org/icf= / and https://icm.museum/ =20 - - - -=20 Tarek Hoteit tarek(a)infocom.ai +1 360-838-3675 https://infocom.ai --===============6215338395968097030==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sat Sep 2 08:27:18 2023 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCFMW Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 03:27:03 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6535526888605634093==" --===============6535526888605634093== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and keep finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest include: PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board MM8-AA/AB 8-E boxes and boards DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu VS40X 4 plane color options SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU Tape drive heads LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts various VTs and monitors and parts MFM and floppy drives Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards 1000s of DEC boards and parts possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off list to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I have quite a lot of DEC items. If you have any questions contact me off list. --===============6535526888605634093==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Sep 2 09:54:35 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 11:54:21 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346704D6D9494@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6574375717460653025==" --===============6574375717460653025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 1 Sep 2023, Rick Bensene wrote: > The machine was able to be implemented with so few transistors because > the microcode word was quite wide, and was designed so that it was > sequentially interpreted as the bits streamed out of the delay line, so > not all that many flip flops were needed. Working registers were stored > in the other delay line, along with program steps (yes, the machine was > programmable). Well, the machine (Diehl Combitron etc.) itself is not microcoded. The machine instructions (5 bit code) are all hardwired. The program on the steel tape is the customer application, i.e. the implementation of the calculator. We had a student who developed a cross assembler for the Combitron, able to load a program or data into the delay line (hooked the reader input to a PC). The small delay line contains the current 11 instructions (one 55 bit word), a double-wide accumulator and an MQ register, in total 4 words. The basic instructions are the four arithmetical functions (yes, hardware multiply and divide) as well as some I/O (for the keyboard and printer) and fill/wait instructions to transfer words from the big delay line, i.e. data/program storage, into or from the small delay line containing the registers and the small block of the current instructions (there was room for 11 instructions). There are *no* jumps! OTOH, to jump to another "location", which means changing the 11-instruction word with another one from the main delay line, you issue a special wait (delay lines are like magnetic drums) and then a fill instruction to transfer a word from the big to the small memory. And, it must be explicitely noted, the CPU does *not* have a program counter! A very ingenious but also very complex/braintwisting design. Christian --===============6574375717460653025==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Sep 2 09:55:28 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 11:55:21 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2414043.170083.1693591275474@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1471605055720150655==" --===============1471605055720150655== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 1 Sep 2023, wrcooke(a)wrcooke.net wrote: > My favorite is Votrax (speech synthesizers) being a division of Federal > Screw Works. We have one attached to our lab8/e :-) Christian --===============1471605055720150655==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Sep 2 13:07:52 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 09:07:41 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941686DB13E97D76763FA08A3E4A=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8426136905906410119==" --===============8426136905906410119== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/1/2023 11:45 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. > I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a trans= former power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer= for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and found one that = would work. > The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they = only made sewing machines ). Believe it or not, at one time they even made Flight Simulators. Early=20 70's I wanted to work at their Binghamton, NY facility but like IBM in Endicott I=20 couldn't even get my foot in the door. bill --===============8426136905906410119==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Sat Sep 2 13:50:33 2023 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 15:50:22 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3499686641908566956==" --===============3499686641908566956== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Sep 01, 2023 at 04:32:57PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > I think that way has been for a while. Having a hard time finding a 68B50 > on ebay. All the modern serial devices (I can buy) seem to be serial > interfaced. Sigh. I see the 68B50 on AliExpress, and they're probably even genuine. The vendor I'm tempted to order some other retro chips from offers them in five packs for about a euro each. For new parts available from a reputable supplier, there's the W65C51. The bumph notes it is "compatible with 65xx and 68xx microprocessors". Available in a variety of packages including DIP, and also in -S and -N variants depending on whether you want CMOS or TTL levels, it runs at a nominal 5V and has speed grades up to 14MHz. It's not a direct replacement for the 6850 but will look quite familiar and present no surprises. For new designs, it's simpler to use as it doesn't need external baud rate generators. A single W65C51N6TPG-14 (DIP, TTL, 14MHz) is €7.10 from my local Mouser. If you can handle SMD, there's even the venerable 16550 and clones which could be handy if you're trying to do high-speed serial, although that's got a more 8080-style bus interface so you'll need a few extra gates to get that going. > PS: Is it me or was the 6850 ACIA the only simple and bug free uart around > at the time with interupts. The W65C51 datasheet notes it has a bug with the flag bit indicating that the transmit buffer is empty, and the recommended workarounds are "don't do that" or "keep using the old NMOS 6551". I suggest the former since the latter is probably once again harder to find. --===============3499686641908566956==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sat Sep 2 14:01:36 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 09:01:30 -0500 Message-ID: <684278531.715570.1693663290312@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1383496483126660953==" --===============1383496483126660953== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 09/02/2023 8:50 AM CDT Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Sep 01, 2023 at 04:32:57PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > I think that way has been for a while. Having a hard time finding a 68B50 Unicorn Electronics has the 68B50 for $7.99 https://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/6800.html Will If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't a= ssign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless imme= nsity of the sea. Antoine de Saint-Exupery --===============1383496483126660953==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Sep 2 15:58:52 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SDF Interim Computer Festival Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 08:58:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1917363899220690985==" --===============1917363899220690985== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Why "Interim"? Sellam On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 7:25 PM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > FYI, SDF retro computing and home brew exhibition is scheduled for > September 30 to October 1 in Seattle WA . Link to the exhibit is at > https://sdf.org/icf/ and https://icm.museum/ > > > - - - - > Tarek Hoteit > tarek(a)infocom.ai > +1 360-838-3675 > > https://infocom.ai > > > > --===============1917363899220690985==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Sat Sep 2 16:24:56 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SDF Interim Computer Festival Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 09:24:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3084883811810612759==" --===============3084883811810612759== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe it is an early experiment unlike the well established VCFs.=20 =20 - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tarek Hoteit tarek(a)infocom.ai +1 360-838-3675 https://infocom.ai > On Sep 2, 2023, at 8:58 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Why "Interim"? >=20 > Sellam >=20 > On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 7:25=E2=80=AFPM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> FYI, SDF retro computing and home brew exhibition is scheduled for >> September 30 to October 1 in Seattle WA . Link to the exhibit is at >> https://sdf.org/icf/ and https://icm.museum/ >>=20 >>=20 >> - - - - >> Tarek Hoteit >> tarek(a)infocom.ai >> +1 360-838-3675 >>=20 >> https://infocom.ai >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 --===============3084883811810612759==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 2 19:40:16 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 13:40:10 -0600 Message-ID: <7dbcbb15-e93d-bba7-f6fc-426064e0b4e9@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6695121981579503649==" --===============6695121981579503649== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-09-02 7:50 a.m., Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 01, 2023 at 04:32:57PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> I think that way has been for a while. Having a hard time finding a 68B50 >> on ebay. All the modern serial devices (I can buy) seem to be serial >> interfaced. Sigh. > > I see the 68B50 on AliExpress, and they're probably even genuine. The vendor > I'm tempted to order some other retro chips from offers them in five packs > for about a euro each. > > For new parts available from a reputable supplier, there's the W65C51. The > bumph notes it is "compatible with 65xx and 68xx microprocessors". Available > in a variety of packages including DIP, and also in -S and -N variants > depending on whether you want CMOS or TTL levels, it runs at a nominal 5V > and has speed grades up to 14MHz. It's not a direct replacement for the 6850 > but will look quite familiar and present no surprises. For new designs, it's > simpler to use as it doesn't need external baud rate generators. > > A single W65C51N6TPG-14 (DIP, TTL, 14MHz) is €7.10 from my local Mouser. > > If you can handle SMD, there's even the venerable 16550 and clones which > could be handy if you're trying to do high-speed serial, although that's got > a more 8080-style bus interface so you'll need a few extra gates to get that > going. > I need it simple, as I am bringing up a new cpu design. 36 bits lives again*. Program testing is to be done I expect from the front panel, until I get boot strap loader into eeprom. The 6850 is just right and coding examples are easy to find. This last PCB is memory and IO.** Ben. * I am building one, if it works is is another story. I use a lot of cmos pals in the design, it makes things so easy build stuff with. ** Once working in need find N x 9 non volitile memory. --===============6695121981579503649==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 2 19:49:34 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 13:49:29 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <684278531.715570.1693663290312@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6501976743586919391==" --===============6501976743586919391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-09-02 8:01 a.m., Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 09/02/2023 8:50 AM CDT Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 01, 2023 at 04:32:57PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: >> [...] >>> I think that way has been for a while. Having a hard time finding a 68B50 > Unicorn Electronics has the 68B50 for $7.99 > https://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/6800.html $ 30 mininum order and 4 weeks shipping to canada stopped me. $12.06 US from china. (ebay). I am having my PCB's made from PCBWAY in china. Shipping takes longer than them being made. ~ $100 US for the PCB's and ~ $50 for shipping and=20 tax. --===============6501976743586919391==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Sat Sep 2 23:00:30 2023 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SDF Interim Computer Festival Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 23:00:22 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0505919559817481883==" --===============0505919559817481883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have only just now joined the outfit, I was unaware of the event until Tar= ek (Thank You!) posted it. I certainly cannot speak for the actual organizers, but this would be My take= . After having many great years Of membership in the truly spectacular Living Computer Museum that the late P= aul Allen created, along with 2 terrific years of the LCM hosting the 2018 and 2019 editions of VCF Pacific= Northwest, the LCM was closed "For Now" in early 2020, due to Covid concerns, and VCF NW 2020 was cancelled= . Not long after the temporary Closure, I got an email that my pro rata membership was being refunded. No ne= ws since, just conjecture, but the LCM is a part of the Paul Allen estate, which is in probate. My uneducated guess; it is called "Interim" as all of us old computer Nerds = up here in Seattle are hoping For the best, that someone interested in continuing the legacy of the LCM wil= l appear, re-open the LCM, start Hosting VCF PNW again...... OK, a guy can Dream.... :>) Mark =09 -----Original Message----- From: Tarek Hoteit via cctalk =20 Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2023 9:25 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Tarek Hoteit Subject: [cctalk] Re: SDF Interim Computer Festival I believe it is an early experiment unlike the well established VCFs.=20 =20 - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tarek Hoteit tarek(a)infocom.ai +1 360-838-3675 https://infocom.ai > On Sep 2, 2023, at 8:58 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Why "Interim"? >=20 > Sellam >=20 > On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 7:25=E2=80=AFPM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk <=20 > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> FYI, SDF retro computing and home brew exhibition is scheduled for=20 >> September 30 to October 1 in Seattle WA . Link to the exhibit is at=20 >> https://sdf.org/icf/ and https://icm.museum/ >>=20 >>=20 >> - - - - >> Tarek Hoteit >> tarek(a)infocom.ai >> +1 360-838-3675 >>=20 >> https://infocom.ai >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 --===============0505919559817481883==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sun Sep 3 01:52:31 2023 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2023 20:52:17 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3536496503745101792==" --===============3536496503745101792== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am located about 2 hours south of Chicago, by Champaign, where 1-72, I-57, and I-74 meet. I also forgot to mention I found a box of new punchcards and several plotter pen holders. On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 3:27 AM Paul Anderson wrote: > I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and keep > finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest include: > PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board > MM8-AA/AB > 8-E boxes and boards > DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts > A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes > a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu > VS40X 4 plane color options > SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU > Tape drive heads > LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts > various VTs and monitors and parts > MFM and floppy drives > Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards > 1000s of DEC boards and parts > possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts > > If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off list > to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I have > quite a lot of DEC items. > > If you have any questions contact me off list. > --===============3536496503745101792==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sun Sep 3 08:13:17 2023 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 03:13:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0689908490612838315==" --===============0689908490612838315== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The DECSTATIONS are: 5000/25 2) 5000/125 5000/133 2) 5000/200 Also a bunch of BA350, BA356, etc.storage works towers, with a selection of power supplies, drives, etc. On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 3:27 AM Paul Anderson wrote: > I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and keep > finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest include: > PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board > MM8-AA/AB > 8-E boxes and boards > DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts > A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes > a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu > VS40X 4 plane color options > SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU > Tape drive heads > LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts > various VTs and monitors and parts > MFM and floppy drives > Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards > 1000s of DEC boards and parts > possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts > > If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off list > to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I have > quite a lot of DEC items. > > If you have any questions contact me off list. > --===============0689908490612838315==-- From mark@matlockfamily.com Sun Sep 3 14:58:08 2023 From: Mark Matlock To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Anybody got an Emulex QD21? Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 09:57:51 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6361700343761851265==" --===============6361700343761851265== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jon, I have an Emulex QD21 that I could part with. I was hoping to attend VCF = MW but it looks very doubtful at this point. I also have a spare DEQNA or DEL= QA. I have not tested these boards to verify that they work although I could = test the ethernet boards on a PDP-11. Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher mentioned wor= k he did testing MicroVAX II transfers with Lee Gleason=E2=80=99s MicroVAX I = project to transfer disk images on bare metal (no-OS) MicroVAX systems. I thi= nk that would be your best bet to recover your ESDI disk. If you don=E2=80=99= t have any luck at the VCCF MW getting what you need, send me an email and we= can work something out. =20 Best, Mark --===============6361700343761851265==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Sep 3 15:12:24 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 10:12:17 -0500 Message-ID: <3a0db3cf-eaf1-c5a7-4dad-0429a18dbbfd@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3784920147173122972==" --===============3784920147173122972== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/2/23 14:49, ben via cctalk wrote: > $ 30 mininum order and 4 weeks shipping to canada stopped me. > $12.06 US from china. (ebay). > I am having my PCB's made from PCBWAY in china. Shipping > takes longer > than them being made. ~ $100 US for the PCB's and ~ $50 > for shipping and tax. I have been using PCBWay for several years.  Quality is excellent, and for small orders, like 5 small boards, they have a much lower cost delivery method through DHL.  I don't know where the breakpoint is on size or weight. Jon --===============3784920147173122972==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Sep 3 20:29:03 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 16:28:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8679610068404653103==" --===============8679610068404653103== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 2, 2023, at 3:49 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2023-09-02 8:01 a.m., Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >>> On 09/02/2023 8:50 AM CDT Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Sep 01, 2023 at 04:32:57PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> [...] >>>> I think that way has been for a while. Having a hard time finding a 68B50 >> Unicorn Electronics has the 68B50 for $7.99 >> https://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/6800.html > $ 30 mininum order and 4 weeks shipping to canada stopped me. > $12.06 US from china. (ebay). > I am having my PCB's made from PCBWAY in china. Shipping takes longer > than them being made. ~ $100 US for the PCB's and ~ $50 for shipping and ta= x. I like OSHPark, US based and pretty quick, decent pricing. Low enough I have= n't felt compelled to look for cheaper alternatives. One nice feature is tha= t they take KiCAD board files directly, no need to generate the low level Ger= ber files. One oddity is their purple (or black) solder mask, but one gets u= sed to it. 2 or 4 layers and some other variations. paul --===============8679610068404653103==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Sep 3 20:56:38 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 13:47:33 -0700 Message-ID: <8636e386-c5ab-7e08-b85d-e09917a25a99@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0335616678822028924==" --===============0335616678822028924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/3/23 13:28, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I like OSHPark, US based and pretty quick, decent pricing. Low enough I ha= ven't felt compelled to look for cheaper alternatives. One nice feature is t= hat they take KiCAD board files directly, no need to generate the low level G= erber files. One oddity is their purple (or black) solder mask, but one gets= used to it. 2 or 4 layers and some other variations. >=20 PCVWay will give you purple (or several other colors) for an extra charge. I think there's a link on the KiCAD PCB layout menu send your design to PCBWay--or at least there was; I haven't checked lately. At one time, I thought that OSHPark (and I've used them) did all of their production domestically, but someone told me that it's not true--they send out their work to China, just like everyone else. --Chuck --===============0335616678822028924==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Sep 3 21:04:20 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 17:04:10 -0400 Message-ID: <1BA6BCDD-7C6C-4713-9DC8-7D30D944B4D1@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <8636e386-c5ab-7e08-b85d-e09917a25a99@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5821198612081346280==" --===============5821198612081346280== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 3, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 9/3/23 13:28, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> I like OSHPark, US based and pretty quick, decent pricing. Low enough I h= aven't felt compelled to look for cheaper alternatives. One nice feature is = that they take KiCAD board files directly, no need to generate the low level = Gerber files. One oddity is their purple (or black) solder mask, but one get= s used to it. 2 or 4 layers and some other variations. >>=20 >=20 > PCVWay will give you purple (or several other colors) for an extra charge. >=20 > I think there's a link on the KiCAD PCB layout menu send your design to > PCBWay--or at least there was; I haven't checked lately. >=20 > At one time, I thought that OSHPark (and I've used them) did all of > their production domestically, but someone told me that it's not > true--they send out their work to China, just like everyone else. That certainly isn't what their website says -- "about us" says specifically = "manufactured in the USA". paul --===============5821198612081346280==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Sun Sep 3 21:10:28 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 17:10:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5439042339426552136==" --===============5439042339426552136== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Paul, For history's sake and to show folks do you have a couple of DEC Flip-Chip cards you could part with? -Ken On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 9:52 PM Paul Anderson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am located about 2 hours south of Chicago, by Champaign, where 1-72, > I-57, and I-74 meet. > > I also forgot to mention I found a box of new punchcards and several > plotter pen holders. > > On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 3:27 AM Paul Anderson wrote: > > > I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and keep > > finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest > include: > > PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board > > MM8-AA/AB > > 8-E boxes and boards > > DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts > > A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes > > a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu > > VS40X 4 plane color options > > SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU > > Tape drive heads > > LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts > > various VTs and monitors and parts > > MFM and floppy drives > > Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards > > 1000s of DEC boards and parts > > possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts > > > > If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off > list > > to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I have > > quite a lot of DEC items. > > > > If you have any questions contact me off list. > > > -- End of line JOB TERMINATED --===============5439042339426552136==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun Sep 3 21:33:14 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 22:32:57 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1BA6BCDD-7C6C-4713-9DC8-7D30D944B4D1@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6242112212372461586==" --===============6242112212372461586== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had a couple of boards from OSHPark. They seemed a bit slower : it took them longer to accumulate enough board orders to fill their panel needs. For a very small board (same size as an HPIB connector) they were excellent. Cheap, and postage included whereas the Chinese suppliers have expensive postage (unlike what we're used to from ebay). However, a bigger board (still only 50mm square) was a lot more expensive. They don't seem to have the 'cheap if it's under 100mm square' rule that the Chinese suppliers do. From here (UK) it seems you need to calculate in detail to choose the optimum for size and postage. On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 10:04 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Sep 3, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 9/3/23 13:28, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I like OSHPark, US based and pretty quick, decent pricing. Low enough > I haven't felt compelled to look for cheaper alternatives. One nice > feature is that they take KiCAD board files directly, no need to generate > the low level Gerber files. One oddity is their purple (or black) solder > mask, but one gets used to it. 2 or 4 layers and some other variations. > >> > > > > PCVWay will give you purple (or several other colors) for an extra > charge. > > > > I think there's a link on the KiCAD PCB layout menu send your design to > > PCBWay--or at least there was; I haven't checked lately. > > > > At one time, I thought that OSHPark (and I've used them) did all of > > their production domestically, but someone told me that it's not > > true--they send out their work to China, just like everyone else. > > That certainly isn't what their website says -- "about us" says > specifically "manufactured in the USA". > > paul > > > --===============6242112212372461586==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Sun Sep 3 21:33:37 2023 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:33:31 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6979972389154488220==" --===============6979972389154488220== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like OSHPark. They are not the cheapest but they also would drill tightly s= paced feed thru's that I could pass wire wrap wire through ( uninsulated ). I= , also, didn't need to create Gerber files for drilling ( always a possible s= ource of errors from a past place I worked at ). I used KiCad. Their boards were purple, if that meets your fancy. Dwight ________________________________ From: Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2023 1:28 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monito= rs) > On Sep 2, 2023, at 3:49 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2023-09-02 8:01 a.m., Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >>> On 09/02/2023 8:50 AM CDT Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 01, 2023 at 04:32:57PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> [...] >>>> I think that way has been for a while. Having a hard time finding a 68B50 >> Unicorn Electronics has the 68B50 for $7.99 >> https://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/6800.html > $ 30 mininum order and 4 weeks shipping to canada stopped me. > $12.06 US from china. (ebay). > I am having my PCB's made from PCBWAY in china. Shipping takes longer > than them being made. ~ $100 US for the PCB's and ~ $50 for shipping and ta= x. I like OSHPark, US based and pretty quick, decent pricing. Low enough I have= n't felt compelled to look for cheaper alternatives. One nice feature is tha= t they take KiCAD board files directly, no need to generate the low level Ger= ber files. One oddity is their purple (or black) solder mask, but one gets u= sed to it. 2 or 4 layers and some other variations. paul --===============6979972389154488220==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun Sep 3 21:34:41 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 22:34:24 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1777893097875306111==" --===============1777893097875306111== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OSHPArk and PCBWay will hold your design and let other people buy them (if you wish). This is an excellent way to do cheap on-demand distribution. I don't believe Jlcpcb offer this. On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 10:32 PM Adrian Godwin wrote: > I had a couple of boards from OSHPark. They seemed a bit slower : it took > them longer to accumulate enough board orders to fill their panel needs. > For a very small board (same size as an HPIB connector) they were > excellent. Cheap, and postage included whereas the Chinese suppliers have > expensive postage (unlike what we're used to from ebay). > > However, a bigger board (still only 50mm square) was a lot more expensive. > They don't seem to have the 'cheap if it's under 100mm square' rule that > the Chinese suppliers do. > > From here (UK) it seems you need to calculate in detail to choose the > optimum for size and postage. > > On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 10:04 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> > On Sep 3, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> > On 9/3/23 13:28, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> > >> >> I like OSHPark, US based and pretty quick, decent pricing. Low enough >> I haven't felt compelled to look for cheaper alternatives. One nice >> feature is that they take KiCAD board files directly, no need to generate >> the low level Gerber files. One oddity is their purple (or black) solder >> mask, but one gets used to it. 2 or 4 layers and some other variations. >> >> >> > >> > PCVWay will give you purple (or several other colors) for an extra >> charge. >> > >> > I think there's a link on the KiCAD PCB layout menu send your design to >> > PCBWay--or at least there was; I haven't checked lately. >> > >> > At one time, I thought that OSHPark (and I've used them) did all of >> > their production domestically, but someone told me that it's not >> > true--they send out their work to China, just like everyone else. >> >> That certainly isn't what their website says -- "about us" says >> specifically "manufactured in the USA". >> >> paul >> >> >> --===============1777893097875306111==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Sep 3 23:03:33 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 19:03:24 -0400 Message-ID: <37D34808-6058-421C-84D6-07527764D678@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6308093431140361032==" --===============6308093431140361032== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 3, 2023, at 5:34 PM, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > OSHPArk and PCBWay will hold your design and let other people buy them (if > you wish). This is an excellent way to do cheap on-demand distribution. I > don't believe Jlcpcb offer this. OSHpark lets you post your design as an open design, and then others can just= order their own for the standard OSH price. Is that what you meant by "buy"= ? It doesn't mean buy in the sense of money going to the designer. For my purposes this is just what I want, and I have posted my 3 boards there. paul --===============6308093431140361032==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun Sep 3 23:08:48 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 00:08:32 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <37D34808-6058-421C-84D6-07527764D678@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1045770923666988243==" --===============1045770923666988243== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, that's what I mean. Of course, it's no good for income-generating things but if all you want to do is make the design available, it's much less hassle than buying stocks of pcbs and mailing them out for minimal profit. It pushes the hassle of doing that onto the recipient but without the added errors of them downloading your design and sending gerbers off. On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 12:03=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Sep 3, 2023, at 5:34 PM, Adrian Godwin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > OSHPArk and PCBWay will hold your design and let other people buy them > (if > > you wish). This is an excellent way to do cheap on-demand distribution. I > > don't believe Jlcpcb offer this. > > OSHpark lets you post your design as an open design, and then others can > just order their own for the standard OSH price. Is that what you meant by > "buy"? It doesn't mean buy in the sense of money going to the designer. > > For my purposes this is just what I want, and I have posted my 3 boards > there. > > paul > > > --===============1045770923666988243==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 3 23:33:38 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 17:33:30 -0600 Message-ID: <3ad1d833-97c1-899d-5197-7441b0407cc4@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2051037612764656522==" --===============2051037612764656522== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-09-03 5:08 p.m., Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > Yes, that's what I mean. >=20 > Of course, it's no good for income-generating things but if all you want to > do is make the design available, it's much less hassle than buying stocks > of pcbs and mailing them out for minimal profit. It pushes the hassle of > doing that onto the recipient but without the added errors of them > downloading your design and sending gerbers off. >=20 I guess the era of kit building is long gone. > On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 12:03=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning wrote: >=20 >> >> >>> On Sep 3, 2023, at 5:34 PM, Adrian Godwin via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> OSHPArk and PCBWay will hold your design and let other people buy them >> (if >>> you wish). This is an excellent way to do cheap on-demand distribution. I >>> don't believe Jlcpcb offer this. >> >> OSHpark lets you post your design as an open design, and then others can >> just order their own for the standard OSH price. Is that what you meant by >> "buy"? It doesn't mean buy in the sense of money going to the designer. >> >> For my purposes this is just what I want, and I have posted my 3 boards >> there. >> >> paul I wonder if there is a need for generic flip chip replacements? I am thinking here with the low cost of pcb's and easy PAL programing=20 one could duplicate most of PDP-# flip chips used. Ben. --===============2051037612764656522==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Mon Sep 4 00:01:37 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 01:01:21 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3ad1d833-97c1-899d-5197-7441b0407cc4@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1967323401759803095==" --===============1967323401759803095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 12:33 AM ben via cctalk wrote: > > I guess the era of kit building is long gone. > > Sadly, yes. The cost of bagging up all the components is large compared with the automated assembly cost, and many people are unwilling to do surface mount manually. Through-hole is possible for some designs but very restricting. What may be feasible is having all the surface mounted parts assembled onto a pcb and leaving through-hole parts such as pots, connectors etc. to the builder. The SMT guys don't like doing that part. --===============1967323401759803095==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Sep 4 02:57:13 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 02:57:05 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7986960237452400336==" --===============7986960237452400336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What kinda kits we talking about? Heathkit kind or the kind you could get in popular electronics?=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 3, 2023, at 17:01, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 12:33=E2=80=AFAM ben via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> I guess the era of kit building is long gone. >>=20 >>=20 > Sadly, yes. The cost of bagging up all the components is large compared > with the automated assembly cost, and many people are unwilling to do > surface mount manually. Through-hole is possible for some designs but very > restricting. >=20 > What may be feasible is having all the surface mounted parts assembled onto > a pcb and leaving through-hole parts such as pots, connectors etc. to the > builder. The SMT guys don't like doing that part. --===============7986960237452400336==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 4 03:15:13 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:15:08 -0600 Message-ID: <97ab6875-3cce-3a89-38a3-dc3ca463295a@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181F72B011F86043380C94BE4E9A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0323221931263701060==" --===============0323221931263701060== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What kinda kits we talking about? > Heathkit kind or the kind you could get in popular electronics? http://www.sworld.com.au/steven/educ-8/ Give the other magazines a chance. :) I always looked a the 1/2 page ads. Get a keyboard $99. 1 cent sale on 7400's. Get a second one for just a penny. 4096 x 36 bit core , untested $89. Printing terminal $399+ $75 shipping in the Continental USA. NOW I have the time and money, the surplus is GONE. Ben. --===============0323221931263701060==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Sep 4 03:21:59 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 03:21:51 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <97ab6875-3cce-3a89-38a3-dc3ca463295a@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7828154225106027248==" --===============7828154225106027248== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was thinking of the parts kits that was offered by sone arrangement between= the author of a construction article and some parts house. Was handy if you = really wanted to build the device. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 3, 2023, at 20:15, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF> What kinda kits we talking about? > > Heathkit kind or the kind you could get in popular electronics? >=20 >=20 > http://www.sworld.com.au/steven/educ-8/ >=20 > Give the other magazines a chance. :) >=20 > I always looked a the 1/2 page ads. > Get a keyboard $99. 1 cent sale on 7400's. Get a second one for just a penn= y. 4096 x 36 bit core , untested $89. > Printing terminal $399+ $75 shipping in the Continental USA. > NOW I have the time and money, > the surplus is GONE. > Ben. >=20 >=20 --===============7828154225106027248==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 4 03:33:43 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Friden (was Silly question about S-100 and video monitors) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:33:05 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181A1F1E2785272A39A029FE4E9A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6776629416635151669==" --===============6776629416635151669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-09-03 9:21 p.m., Wayne S wrote: > I was thinking of the parts kits that was offered by sone arrangement betwe= en the author of a construction article and some parts house. Was handy if yo= u really wanted to build the device. > I was thinking the same thing. Now days any construction article, is=20 just a review of some product. The one good thing about COVID, is all the retro rebuilding stuff going=20 as more people seem had more time at home to do things. Ben. --===============6776629416635151669==-- From useddec@gmail.com Mon Sep 4 04:48:50 2023 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 23:48:35 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0778722730185639355==" --===============0778722730185639355== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What size/vintage are you looking for? I'll try to find a few bad ones that can't be repaired. Paul On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 4:10=E2=80=AFPM KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Paul, > > For history's sake and to show folks do you have a couple of DEC Flip-Chip > cards you could part with? > > -Ken > > > On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 9:52=E2=80=AFPM Paul Anderson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I am located about 2 hours south of Chicago, by Champaign, where 1-72, > > I-57, and I-74 meet. > > > > I also forgot to mention I found a box of new punchcards and several > > plotter pen holders. > > > > On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 3:27=E2=80=AFAM Paul Anderson wrote: > > > > > I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and keep > > > finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest > > include: > > > PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board > > > MM8-AA/AB > > > 8-E boxes and boards > > > DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts > > > A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes > > > a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu > > > VS40X 4 plane color options > > > SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU > > > Tape drive heads > > > LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts > > > various VTs and monitors and parts > > > MFM and floppy drives > > > Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards > > > 1000s of DEC boards and parts > > > possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts > > > > > > If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off > > list > > > to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I > have > > > quite a lot of DEC items. > > > > > > If you have any questions contact me off list. > > > > > > > > -- > End of line > JOB TERMINATED > --===============0778722730185639355==-- From useddec@gmail.com Mon Sep 4 04:58:44 2023 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 23:58:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1572794428958683008==" --===============1572794428958683008== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just found a box of 11/150 and 11/780 prints including FP750, FP780 and CI780.I have other prints and manuals of which some are available. If you like compatible boards I have over 100 Dilog, Emulex, CMD, etc boards I also have BA11-M, N, and S Qbus boxes and several hundred boards. I can configure a system pretty much any way you want it. Paul On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 3:27 AM Paul Anderson wrote: > I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and keep > finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest include: > PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board > MM8-AA/AB > 8-E boxes and boards > DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts > A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes > a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu > VS40X 4 plane color options > SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU > Tape drive heads > LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts > various VTs and monitors and parts > MFM and floppy drives > Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards > 1000s of DEC boards and parts > possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts > > If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off list > to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I have > quite a lot of DEC items. > > If you have any questions contact me off list. > --===============1572794428958683008==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Mon Sep 4 05:00:51 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 01:00:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1793299293176600106==" --===============1793299293176600106== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul, Don't worry. I was just going to show them to new kids who don't understand. -Ken On Mon, Sep 4, 2023, 12:48 AM Paul Anderson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > What size/vintage are you looking for? I'll try to find a few bad ones that > can't be repaired. > > Paul > > On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 4:10=E2=80=AFPM KenUnix via cctalk > wrote: > > > Paul, > > > > For history's sake and to show folks do you have a couple of DEC > Flip-Chip > > cards you could part with? > > > > -Ken > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 9:52=E2=80=AFPM Paul Anderson via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > I am located about 2 hours south of Chicago, by Champaign, where 1-72, > > > I-57, and I-74 meet. > > > > > > I also forgot to mention I found a box of new punchcards and several > > > plotter pen holders. > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 3:27=E2=80=AFAM Paul Anderson > wrote: > > > > > > > I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and > keep > > > > finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest > > > include: > > > > PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board > > > > MM8-AA/AB > > > > 8-E boxes and boards > > > > DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts > > > > A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes > > > > a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu > > > > VS40X 4 plane color options > > > > SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU > > > > Tape drive heads > > > > LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts > > > > various VTs and monitors and parts > > > > MFM and floppy drives > > > > Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards > > > > 1000s of DEC boards and parts > > > > possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts > > > > > > > > If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off > > > list > > > > to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I > > have > > > > quite a lot of DEC items. > > > > > > > > If you have any questions contact me off list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > End of line > > JOB TERMINATED > > > --===============1793299293176600106==-- From raymond.wiker@icloud.com Mon Sep 4 07:39:18 2023 From: raymond.wiker@icloud.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 09:31:20 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580DB04D04E54410B34E8B9EDEBA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4919315905509672261==" --===============4919315905509672261== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 2 Sep 2023, at 15:07, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 9/1/2023 11:45 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. >> I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a tran= sformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transforme= r for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and found one that= would work. >> The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they= only made sewing machines ). >=20 >=20 > Believe it or not, at one time they even made Flight Simulators. Early 70's= I wanted >=20 > to work at their Binghamton, NY facility but like IBM in Endicott I couldn'= t even get my >=20 > foot in the door. >=20 >=20 > bill >=20 >=20 The Singer Link F-16 simulator used Norsk Data superminis (initially ND50, bu= t later ND500). This is not really relevant to S-100 and video monitors, but = I like to mention Norsk Data whenever the opportunity arises. --===============4919315905509672261==-- From geoffr@zipcon.net Mon Sep 4 08:23:11 2023 From: Geoff Reed To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 01:14:03 -0700 Message-ID: <1693815243.64f591cb493ea@webmail.zipcon.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3983816944720519340==" --===============3983816944720519340== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Paul Anderson via cctalk : I wish i were closer, it would be great to replace my 100+ rainbows > The DECSTATIONS are: > > 5000/25 > 2) 5000/125 > 5000/133 > 2) 5000/200 > > Also a bunch of BA350, BA356, etc.storage works towers, with a selection > of > power supplies, drives, etc. > > On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 3:27 AM Paul Anderson > wrote: > > > I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and > keep > > finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest > include: > > PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board > > MM8-AA/AB > > 8-E boxes and boards > > DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts > > A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes > > a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu > > VS40X 4 plane color options > > SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU > > Tape drive heads > > LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts > > various VTs and monitors and parts > > MFM and floppy drives > > Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards > > 1000s of DEC boards and parts > > possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts > > > > If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off > list > > to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I > have > > quite a lot of DEC items. > > > > If you have any questions contact me off list. > > > --===============3983816944720519340==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Sep 4 12:23:05 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 14:22:53 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <38a3eb24-2fc6-c0d-b5e8-226aebdf3615@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3075820830149231477==" --===============3075820830149231477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I won't give up my hopes, but it seems that this system is practically extinct and that noone is really interested in it, although it was the start for the later 980/990 and 9900 series. Christian --===============3075820830149231477==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Sep 4 13:22:18 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 09:22:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2278204960657407332==" --===============2278204960657407332== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/4/2023 3:31 AM, Raymond Wiker via cctalk wrote: > >> On 2 Sep 2023, at 15:07, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 9/1/2023 11:45 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: >>> My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. >>> I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a tra= nsformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transform= er for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and found one tha= t would work. >>> The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought the= y only made sewing machines ). >> >> Believe it or not, at one time they even made Flight Simulators. Early 70'= s I wanted >> >> to work at their Binghamton, NY facility but like IBM in Endicott I couldn= 't even get my >> >> foot in the door. >> >> >> bill >> >> > The Singer Link F-16 simulator used Norsk Data superminis (initially ND50, = but later ND500). This is not really relevant to S-100 and video monitors, bu= t I like to mention Norsk Data whenever the opportunity arises. Our Singer Link facility was gone by the time the F-16 came around.=C2=A0=20 Think F-4 and maybe even F-104 when I was trying to get a job.=C2=A0 Not sure if they did helicopters,= =20 too but it would have been UH-1, Cobra and Chinook. bill --===============2278204960657407332==-- From jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org Mon Sep 4 15:27:40 2023 From: James B DiGriz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 11:27:28 -0400 Message-ID: <20230904112653.39af9d02@crucible.int.dragonsweb.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4007026082018732943==" --===============4007026082018732943== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm interested, the ATS-960 automated test system in particular. I think that's what was with the Applicon I mentioned. jbdigriz On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 14:22:53 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > I won't give up my hopes, but it seems that this system is > practically extinct and that noone is really interested in it, > although it was the start for the later 980/990 and 9900 series. > > Christian > --===============4007026082018732943==-- From gavin@learn.bio Mon Sep 4 16:53:19 2023 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Language Creators Charity Fundraiser (Seattle Sept 19th) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 11:53:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2100890472024141020==" --===============2100890472024141020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This sounds kinda fun (via the Adafruit weekly Python on microcontrollers newsletter): https://pydata.org/language-creator-fundraiser/ Panelists: Adele Goldberg - Smalltalk Guido Van Rossum - Python Anders Hejlsberg - Turbo Pascal, C#, TypeScript James Gosling - Java "PyData Seattle presents its inaugural charity event. The event will feature the creators of C#, Java, Perl, Python, TypeScript, and Smalltalk in a conversation about programming language design. The charity event brings together this unique group of computer science pioneers, unlike any event held before. These great minds come together for what will surely be a fantastic night of discussion as the panel delves into the past and future of programming language creation. The event will attract innovators and engineers from Seattle, the nation’s fastest-growing technology hub. The event is a benefit for Last Mile Education Fund and NUMFOCUS." General admission $229, Students $75. 12:00 - 4:00 PM September 19th, 2023 Cinemark Lincoln Square, Cinemas and IMAX 700 Bellevue Way NE, Suite 310 Bellevue WA 98004 --===============2100890472024141020==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Mon Sep 4 17:12:17 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Key to Disk Terminal Video Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 12:12:00 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5679914213047679647==" --===============5679914213047679647== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://youtu.be/jkOsvQpNmio I hope yall enjoy! --===============5679914213047679647==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Sep 4 20:01:20 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 16:01:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230904112653.39af9d02@crucible.int.dragonsweb.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2187138047249207306==" --===============2187138047249207306== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/4/2023 11:27 AM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > I'm interested, the ATS-960 automated test system in particular. I > think that's what was with the Applicon I mentioned. > > jbdigriz > > On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 14:22:53 +0200 (CEST) > Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > >> I won't give up my hopes, but it seems that this system is >> practically extinct and that noone is really interested in it, >> although it was the start for the later 980/990 and 9900 series. Weren't the TI 900 series the things called Transputers? bill --===============2187138047249207306==-- From gordon+cctalk@drogon.net Mon Sep 4 20:13:33 2023 From: Gordon Henderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 21:13:25 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55802C86AB86C0F712399F50EDE9A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8923119770703042685==" --===============8923119770703042685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 4 Sep 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Weren't the TI 900 series the things called Transputers? I don't think so... You may be thinking of the Inmos T9000 Transputer - successor to the T800 and T4xx (16-bit) series Transputer... Gordon (Worked for one of the spin-off companies from Inmos making big things with Transputers and other stuff) --===============8923119770703042685==-- From jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org Mon Sep 4 20:24:20 2023 From: James B DiGriz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 16:23:51 -0400 Message-ID: <20230904162351.10073ad4@crucible.int.dragonsweb.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55802C86AB86C0F712399F50EDE9A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4730578168902914699==" --===============4730578168902914699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can see some similarity of the 900 series CRU I/O to the Inmos Transputer serial links, but I've never heard of them referred to as Transputers. The 960 was called a "bit pusher", though. jbdigriz On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 16:01:10 -0400 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 9/4/2023 11:27 AM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > > I'm interested, the ATS-960 automated test system in particular. I > > think that's what was with the Applicon I mentioned. > > > > jbdigriz > > > > On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 14:22:53 +0200 (CEST) > > Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I won't give up my hopes, but it seems that this system is > >> practically extinct and that noone is really interested in it, > >> although it was the start for the later 980/990 and 9900 series. > > > Weren't the TI 900 series the things called Transputers? > > > bill > > --===============4730578168902914699==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Mon Sep 4 20:31:39 2023 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 13:12:25 -0700 Message-ID: <938B1B9F-6001-4139-816A-08C51C5702BE@eschatologist.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55802C86AB86C0F712399F50EDE9A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8533244299451620673==" --===============8533244299451620673== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sep 4, 2023, at 1:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Weren't the TI 900 series the things called Transputers? No. Completely unrelated. =E2=80=94 Chris --===============8533244299451620673==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Sep 4 22:03:36 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 18:03:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230904162351.10073ad4@crucible.int.dragonsweb.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1291879940825355099==" --===============1291879940825355099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/4/2023 4:23 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > I can see some similarity of the 900 series CRU I/O to the Inmos > Transputer serial links, but I've never heard of them referred to as > Transputers. The 960 was called a "bit pusher", though. > Looked similar to me, too.  I was just curious if an interest in Transputers had sprung up.  Maybe 20 years ago I had boxes of them and even the ones that went into Sun-3's.  I couldn't even give them away. Don't remember what happened to them at this point.  Might have thrown them in with stuff I gave to a couple of fledgling museums. bill --===============1291879940825355099==-- From jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org Tue Sep 5 03:28:38 2023 From: James B DiGriz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 23:28:05 -0400 Message-ID: <20230904232805.2f7dfc73@crucible.int.dragonsweb.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558016B43324A373C1EDF6B0EDE9A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2611590436049069579==" --===============2611590436049069579== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 18:03:26 -0400 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 9/4/2023 4:23 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > > I can see some similarity of the 900 series CRU I/O to the Inmos > > Transputer serial links, but I've never heard of them referred to as > > Transputers. The 960 was called a "bit pusher", though. > > > Looked similar to me, too.  I was just curious if an interest in > Transputers > > had sprung up.  Maybe 20 years ago I had boxes of them and even the > > ones that went into Sun-3's.  I couldn't even give them away. Don't > remember > > what happened to them at this point.  Might have thrown them in with > stuff > > I gave to a couple of fledgling museums. > > > bill > > Oh, I've always been interested in them, just that opportunity and means never converged when I wasn't distracted by other things, and then they became yesterday's news and hard to find. If yours turn up, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one who'd want some, either. Sorry for top-posting and not trimming, earlier. Kinda out of the mailing list habit. jbdigriz. --===============2611590436049069579==-- From davida@pobox.com Tue Sep 5 05:22:01 2023 From: David Arnold To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2023 15:21:39 +1000 Message-ID: <7716B328-07CC-4228-9489-C9BEA11A53B2@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55802C86AB86C0F712399F50EDE9A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0012842834915923951==" --===============0012842834915923951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 5 Sep 2023, at 06:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: =E2=80=A6 > Weren't the TI 900 series the things called Transputers? Closest thing to a Transputer from TI I can think of were the C-series DSP ch= ips: eg TMS 320C40, although they used 6x byte-wide parallel ports not the 4x= bit-wide serial ports of the Transputer.=20 Some Transputer software was ported to them, including Perihelion=E2=80=99s H= elios operating system, iirc.=20 d --===============0012842834915923951==-- From useddec@gmail.com Tue Sep 5 09:22:21 2023 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCFMW Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2023 04:22:06 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2758625768069716903==" --===============2758625768069716903== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I plan on arriving around noon, and leaving around 6ish. I have most Q-bus and MicroVAX CPU and memory boards along with options and non-DEC boards. In UNI-BUS, I have MOS and core sets plus most options. I can't take everything with me, and whatever doesn't sell at VCFMW can be shipped (small items) after I return. If you are looking for any DEC product, feel free to contact me. Thanks, Paul --===============2758625768069716903==-- From tih@hamartun.priv.no Tue Sep 5 13:59:46 2023 From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2023 15:51:21 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230904232805.2f7dfc73@crucible.int.dragonsweb.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2137280507210431179==" --===============2137280507210431179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James B DiGriz via cctalk writes: > Oh, I've always been interested in them, just that opportunity and > means never converged when I wasn't distracted by other things, and > then they became yesterday's news and hard to find. If yours turn up, > I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one who'd want some, either. I know what you mean. Transputer stuff does turn up from time to time, though. I play with Perihelion's Helios on a Transputer array myself - here's the story of how I finally got started (with some useful links to more Transputer information): https://hamartun.priv.no/b004.html -tih -- Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay --===============2137280507210431179==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Tue Sep 5 16:08:55 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2023 16:08:46 +0000 Message-ID: <12ba45bb68274c589ddb98977ea279a4@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <7716B328-07CC-4228-9489-C9BEA11A53B2@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7868723606311002417==" --===============7868723606311002417== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some of the Analog Devices Sharcs have similar interconnection topologies, e.= g. the ADSP-21160 had six bytewide link ports, doubtless an expressio of the = sincerest form of flatery. Subsequent Sharcs were more targeted to single DSP functionality. =20 The baremetal 12 Sharc boards I worked on were for masochists. Martin -----Original Message----- From: David Arnold via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 05 September 2023 06:22 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: David Arnold Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 > On 5 Sep 2023, at 06:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: =E2=80=A6 > Weren't the TI 900 series the things called Transputers? Closest thing to a Transputer from TI I can think of were the C-series DSP ch= ips: eg TMS 320C40, although they used 6x byte-wide parallel ports not the 4x= bit-wide serial ports of the Transputer.=20 Some Transputer software was ported to them, including Perihelion=E2=80=99s H= elios operating system, iirc.=20 d --===============7868723606311002417==-- From lbickley@bickleywest.com Wed Sep 6 02:38:21 2023 From: Lyle Bickley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Walter Shawlee of Sphere, RIP Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2023 18:56:33 -0700 Message-ID: <20230905185633.5a822fb3@asrock.bcwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0646863480408963199==" --===============0646863480408963199== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I purchased several items from Walter at Sphere over the years. I suspect many others of you Tek and HP fans on this list have, too. He was always helpful a= nd kind. Walter has been ill for some time and passed away yesterday. It's good that his wife, Susan, will continue to run the business (I got an email from Susan before Walter passed so stating). Here is a link to Walter's obituary: https://bit.ly/3qZ2lBX Regards, Lyle --=20 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" --===============0646863480408963199==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Sep 6 07:14:59 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 09:14:48 +0200 Message-ID: <4913b848-aa81-1cbe-8883-9043adc17a15@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1027014567105527972==" --===============1027014567105527972== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 5 Sep 2023, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote: > James B DiGriz via cctalk writes: > >> Oh, I've always been interested in them, just that opportunity and >> means never converged when I wasn't distracted by other things, and >> then they became yesterday's news and hard to find. If yours turn up, >> I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one who'd want some, either. > > I know what you mean. Transputer stuff does turn up from time to time, > though. I play with Perihelion's Helios on a Transputer array myself - > here's the story of how I finally got started (with some useful links to > more Transputer information): https://hamartun.priv.no/b004.html Ok, I do have tons of transputer staff here. For example a transputer board from Meico for SUN VME machines. And Inmos development systems etc. But I don't see any relation of that to the subject... ;-) Christian --===============1027014567105527972==-- From gordon+cctalk@drogon.net Wed Sep 6 09:49:16 2023 From: Gordon Henderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 10:49:08 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4913b848-aa81-1cbe-8883-9043adc17a15@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3055389121911983459==" --===============3055389121911983459== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 6 Sep 2023, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 5 Sep 2023, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote: >> James B DiGriz via cctalk writes: >> >>> Oh, I've always been interested in them, just that opportunity and >>> means never converged when I wasn't distracted by other things, and >>> then they became yesterday's news and hard to find. If yours turn up, >>> I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one who'd want some, either. >> >> I know what you mean. Transputer stuff does turn up from time to time, >> though. I play with Perihelion's Helios on a Transputer array myself - >> here's the story of how I finally got started (with some useful links to >> more Transputer information): https://hamartun.priv.no/b004.html > > Ok, I do have tons of transputer staff here. For example a transputer board > from Meico for SUN VME machines. And Inmos development systems etc. > But I don't see any relation of that to the subject... ;-) It was Meiko I worked for. I don't recall an in-Sun transputer board but we had boards for PCs, Suns and VAXes that had the transuter link-chip on them that then allowed them to front-end a "Computing Surface" - aka big box full of transputers and other peripherals. You'd develop the code on the PC/Sun/VAX then use the tools to load up the transputer array and off you went... I've only ever seen one Meiko system in a museum since then - Jim Austins private collection and while it might power-up, it's missing all the SCSI drives with all the software on - which appears to have been lost to time, sadly. Gordon --===============3055389121911983459==-- From mattislind@gmail.com Wed Sep 6 11:20:12 2023 From: Mattis Lind To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NS32k software on Ebay Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 13:19:56 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7047982440080263470==" --===============7047982440080263470== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been a number of Ebay listings for various ns32k software, QIC tapes and 1/2 inch tapes. I thought I would buy them if there were no other bids to try to recover the contents. https://www.ebay.com/itm/225759541222 https://www.ebay.com/itm/225759543101 https://www.ebay.com/itm/225750706891 But there was a buyer and I didn't want to fight over something where I don't have the actual hardware. Maybe someone here is the buyer? I am just curious if this will end up on bitsavers in the future? /Mattis --===============7047982440080263470==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Sep 6 15:31:36 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NS32k software on Ebay Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 10:31:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1728402871921310647==" --===============1728402871921310647== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/6/23 06:19, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > There have been a number of Ebay listings for various ns32k software, QIC > tapes and 1/2 inch tapes. I thought I would buy them if there were no other > bids to try to recover the contents. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/225759541222 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/225759543101 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/225750706891 > > But there was a buyer and I didn't want to fight over something where I > don't have the actual hardware. Maybe someone here is the buyer? I am just > curious if this will end up on bitsavers in the future? > Oh, yes, first one is the VAX cross-compiler for Pascal, cross-asm and debugger.  I had all of these at one time.  I still have the Pascal manual and maybe some other stuff, as well as a bunch of the development boards.  I'll be hauling all of that to the VCF-MW this weekend. Jon --===============1728402871921310647==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Sep 6 16:36:18 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 11:36:10 -0500 Message-ID: <43c0f5ca-0f12-65a0-b048-eaef25e184b7@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3613432461726912160==" --===============3613432461726912160== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do you understand "Stop this RIM RAM or I will DEC you"? Do you know what PDP is an acronym for? Do you think in PDP-11 Assembler. Do you know the difference between OS/8 and RTS/8. Is EMACS your friend? Can you discuss the advantages of Tops 10 over Tops 20. Have you ever programmed a DEC 18 bit machine? Does VAX have nothing to do with vacuum cleaners? If you can answer yes to any of these I am hosting a "DECnut" pizza party, at my house, Saturday, September 9th at 7PM with pizza to be delivered sometime after that. If you are interested please stop by my table (first 2 tables to the left of the door in the "big iron" room).  Look for the PDP-8/E with an RX02 attached. Please feel free to pass this email on to any DEC fan. Thanks,              Mike --===============3613432461726912160==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Sep 6 17:08:43 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 13:08:36 -0400 Message-ID: <5D912AFD-34BF-48C9-A608-70558D47784D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <43c0f5ca-0f12-65a0-b048-eaef25e184b7@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1711091603183369278==" --===============1711091603183369278== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reminds me of the "PDP-11 trivia contest" that was held at DECUS, I think on = the occasion of the 20th anniversary of the PDP-11. If so that would have be= en 2000. I still have the poster that went with it somewhere. And I remembe= r the question I contributed: "On what model and under what circumstances wil= l the PC increment by 1?" paul > On Sep 6, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Do you understand "Stop this RIM RAM or I will DEC you"? >=20 > Do you know what PDP is an acronym for? >=20 > Do you think in PDP-11 Assembler. >=20 > Do you know the difference between OS/8 and RTS/8. >=20 > Is EMACS your friend? >=20 > Can you discuss the advantages of Tops 10 over Tops 20. >=20 > Have you ever programmed a DEC 18 bit machine? >=20 > Does VAX have nothing to do with vacuum cleaners? >=20 > If you can answer yes to any of these I am hosting a "DECnut" pizza party, = at my house, Saturday, September 9th at 7PM with pizza to be delivered someti= me after that. >=20 > If you are interested please stop by my table (first 2 tables to the left o= f the door in the "big iron" room). Look for the PDP-8/E with an RX02 attach= ed. >=20 > Please feel free to pass this email on to any DEC fan. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Mike --===============1711091603183369278==-- From fritzm@fritzm.org Wed Sep 6 17:14:21 2023 From: Fritz Mueller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 10:14:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5D912AFD-34BF-48C9-A608-70558D47784D@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7334204415046185558==" --===============7334204415046185558== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 6, 2023, at 10:08 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > "On what model and under what circumstances will the PC increment by 1?" At least true on a KD11-B when executing code out of the memory-mapped regist= er file :-) (I just happen to have been wading through one of these a couple weeks back= =E2=80=A6) =E2=80=94FritzM. --===============7334204415046185558==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Sep 6 17:24:23 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 13:24:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3613109985392125579==" --===============3613109985392125579== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 6, 2023, at 1:14 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 6, 2023, at 10:08 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> "On what model and under what circumstances will the PC increment by 1?" >=20 > At least true on a KD11-B when executing code out of the memory-mapped regi= ster file :-) Correct... PDP11/05 and /10. paul --===============3613109985392125579==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Sep 6 19:01:06 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 14:00:56 -0500 Message-ID: <5de49124-01bb-5d3c-7ba4-0e4429f89d04@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <5D912AFD-34BF-48C9-A608-70558D47784D@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8008545996683579498==" --===============8008545996683579498== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul, I'm not an 11 expert but don't most instruction fetches (or the last=20 clock phase on an instruction) cause the pc to increment by one? On 9/6/2023 12:08 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Reminds me of the "PDP-11 trivia contest" that was held at DECUS, I think o= n the occasion of the 20th anniversary of the PDP-11. If so that would have = been 2000. I still have the poster that went with it somewhere. And I remem= ber the question I contributed: "On what model and under what circumstances w= ill the PC increment by 1?" > > paul > >> On Sep 6, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> Do you understand "Stop this RIM RAM or I will DEC you"? >> >> Do you know what PDP is an acronym for? >> >> Do you think in PDP-11 Assembler. >> >> Do you know the difference between OS/8 and RTS/8. >> >> Is EMACS your friend? >> >> Can you discuss the advantages of Tops 10 over Tops 20. >> >> Have you ever programmed a DEC 18 bit machine? >> >> Does VAX have nothing to do with vacuum cleaners? >> >> If you can answer yes to any of these I am hosting a "DECnut" pizza party,= at my house, Saturday, September 9th at 7PM with pizza to be delivered somet= ime after that. >> >> If you are interested please stop by my table (first 2 tables to the left = of the door in the "big iron" room). Look for the PDP-8/E with an RX02 attac= hed. >> >> Please feel free to pass this email on to any DEC fan. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mike --===============8008545996683579498==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Sep 6 19:29:00 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 14:28:52 -0500 Message-ID: <8e4cc55b-95ba-0258-00fd-8cc1caeefb0e@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <5D912AFD-34BF-48C9-A608-70558D47784D@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0881559104327319858==" --===============0881559104327319858== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/6/23 12:08, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Reminds me of the "PDP-11 trivia contest" that was held at DECUS, I think o= n the occasion of the 20th anniversary of the PDP-11. If so that would have = been 2000. I still have the poster that went with it somewhere. And I remem= ber the question I contributed: "On what model and under what circumstances w= ill the PC increment by 1?" > The PDP-11 was introduced in 1970, so the 20th anniversary=20 would have been 1990, or 2000 would have been the 30th. Jon --===============0881559104327319858==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Sep 6 19:32:27 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 14:32:23 -0500 Message-ID: <7fdca6ad-ae70-0295-987f-7ed2d11ae04e@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <5de49124-01bb-5d3c-7ba4-0e4429f89d04@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6325891208772840960==" --===============6325891208772840960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/6/23 14:00, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Paul, > > I'm not an 11 expert but don't most instruction fetches > (or the last clock phase on an instruction) cause the pc > to increment by one? PDP-11 instructions are 16-bit.  Since memory is byte-addressed, the instruction counter should normally increment by 2, except where immediate  operands are used. Jon --===============6325891208772840960==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Sep 6 19:44:14 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 15:44:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5de49124-01bb-5d3c-7ba4-0e4429f89d04@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8056943356078770408==" --===============8056943356078770408== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 6, 2023, at 3:00 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Paul, >=20 > I'm not an 11 expert but don't most instruction fetches (or the last clock = phase on an instruction) cause the pc to increment by one? No, by 2 because memory addresses are byte addresses but instructions are 2-b= yte words and word aligned. I just remembered two other PDP-11 trivia questions, not model dependent. 1. Describes a one-word program that executes backward in memory. 2. Describe a one-word program that clears the entire 16-bit address space, h= alting on completion. paul --===============8056943356078770408==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Wed Sep 6 19:44:42 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 15:44:35 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5de49124-01bb-5d3c-7ba4-0e4429f89d04@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8696810241263468849==" --===============8696810241263468849== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And for a bonus point, which signal description had an asterisk beside it with a footnote, "add an extra 20 minutes on Saturday night" before marketing found out and scotched it? cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2023-09-06 15:00, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Paul, > > I'm not an 11 expert but don't most instruction fetches (or the last > clock phase on an instruction) cause the pc to increment by one? > > On 9/6/2023 12:08 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Reminds me of the "PDP-11 trivia contest" that was held at DECUS, I >> think on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of the PDP-11.  If so >> that would have been 2000.  I still have the poster that went with it >> somewhere.  And I remember the question I contributed: "On what model >> and under what circumstances will the PC increment by 1?" >> >>     paul >> >>> On Sep 6, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> Do you understand "Stop this RIM RAM or I will DEC you"? >>> >>> Do you know what PDP is an acronym for? >>> >>> Do you think in PDP-11 Assembler. >>> >>> Do you know the difference between OS/8 and RTS/8. >>> >>> Is EMACS your friend? >>> >>> Can you discuss the advantages of Tops 10 over Tops 20. >>> >>> Have you ever programmed a DEC 18 bit machine? >>> >>> Does VAX have nothing to do with vacuum cleaners? >>> >>> If you can answer yes to any of these I am hosting a "DECnut" pizza >>> party, at my house, Saturday, September 9th at 7PM with pizza to be >>> delivered sometime after that. >>> >>> If you are interested please stop by my table (first 2 tables to the >>> left of the door in the "big iron" room).  Look for the PDP-8/E with >>> an RX02 attached. >>> >>> Please feel free to pass this email on to any DEC fan. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>>               Mike > -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============8696810241263468849==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Sep 6 19:48:09 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 15:48:00 -0400 Message-ID: <7B68D489-F531-4DBD-BD39-36D254B91B07@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <7fdca6ad-ae70-0295-987f-7ed2d11ae04e@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4617593553948155180==" --===============4617593553948155180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 6, 2023, at 3:32 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On 9/6/23 14:00, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> Paul, >>=20 >> I'm not an 11 expert but don't most instruction fetches (or the last clock= phase on an instruction) cause the pc to increment by one? > PDP-11 instructions are 16-bit. Since memory is byte-addressed, the instru= ction counter should normally increment by 2, except where immediate operand= s are used. Even then it increments by 2, by special exception. So 112700, 1 (movb #1,r0= ) fetches the instruction and increments PC by 2, then fetches the word where= the PC points and increments by 2, not 1, again. The weird case of the 11/05 is because the general registers are assigned add= resses 177700 through 177707 for R0 through PC, so R1 is at 177701 even thoug= h it's a word wide. On most models those addresses only work from the operat= or console, but on the 11/05 they are also visible from the program. And by = special microcode hack ("just because they could", says ABC) if the PC is in = that range it increments by 1. paul --===============4617593553948155180==-- From rickb@bensene.com Wed Sep 6 20:02:40 2023 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NS32k software on Ebay Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 18:33:28 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0692930040296425890==" --===============0692930040296425890== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mattis Lind wrote: >There have been a number of Ebay listings for various ns32k software, QIC ta= pes and 1/2 inch tapes. >I thought I would buy them if there were no other bi= ds to try to recover the contents. ... >But there was a buyer and I didn't want to fight over something where I don'= t have the actual >hardware. Maybe someone here is the buyer? I am just curio= us if this will end up on bitsavers in the >future? I would certainly be interested in what's on the tapes, especially those that= are specifically ns32k related. My difficulty at the moment is funding to bu= y the stuff due to illness that has severely curtailed my working hours, and = thus, putting a squeeze on finances. So, I won't be bidding on the tapes. :-( I have the ability to read =C2=BD=E2=80=9D tapes (up to 6250 BPI) as well as = QIC tapes. My difficulty at the moment is funding to purchase the stuff due to illness t= hat has severely curtailed my working hours, and thus, putting a squeeze on f= inances. So, I won't be bidding on any of the media, but certainly am interes= ted in what's on the media. I would volunteer to read the media and provide it in a form usable (e.g., pr= ovided external hard drive) if someone purchases the media but doesn=E2=80=99= t have the tools to read/extract the data on the tapes, and is willing to sen= d them to me. After everything possible is extracted and archived into a usable form on mor= e current hardware(disk, large thumb drive, or I could put it up on a private= FTP for download), I'd return the tapes to their owner along with the extrac= ted data in whatever form desired. Hopefully Mattis or someone else with a preservationist mindset will end up w= inning the tapes. Bottom line is that the most important thing is that these tapes don't disapp= ear into some personal collection of stuff that will never again see the ligh= t of day (or worse, end up being used as media for overwriting with other stu= ff). The best possible outcome in my mind would be for the contents to be pu= t up on Bitsavers for anyone who has interest to peruse/download. My concern is copyright. With the laws the way they are, if the content on = the tape has copyright notices (or the labels themselves do), it may not be l= egal to make the content public without obtaining some kind of legal release = from National Semiconductor to publish this obsolete material, which could be= a somewhat arduous process. Definitely something to consider if the desire= is to make the content of the tapes public. I will still help anyone with = extraction of the data from the tapes for their personal (non-public) use if = copyright gets in the way of publishing it for public access. Anyway, if I can be of assistance in reading/extracating the media, feel free= to contact me via Email at XrickbX(a)YbenseneY.comZ (remove the X's Y's, and Z's). -Rick --===============0692930040296425890==-- From fritzm@fritzm.org Wed Sep 6 21:42:59 2023 From: Fritz Mueller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 14:42:43 -0700 Message-ID: <9AEC7D71-BEF1-4FD6-AEB7-5D4DD536ECC3@fritzm.org> In-Reply-To: <7B68D489-F531-4DBD-BD39-36D254B91B07@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0964632502688222925==" --===============0964632502688222925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 6, 2023, at 12:48 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The weird case of the 11/05 is because the general registers are assigned a= ddresses 177700 through 177707 for R0 through PC, so R1 is at 177701 even tho= ugh it's a word wide. On most models those addresses only work from the oper= ator console, but on the 11/05 they are also visible from the program. And b= y special microcode hack ("just because they could", says ABC) if the PC is i= n that range it increments by 1. This was on the tip of my tongue because I was actually just debugging these = very bits of microcode on a GT40 (which Scott Swazey will be demoing at VCFMW= running =E2=80=9CLunar Lander=E2=80=9D if it survives the journey there by c= ar!) The ALU B-leg input in the data paths on this CPU has a selection to generate= constant +1. In the usual cases, where the microcode needs +2 to be added t= o something, the additional +1 comes from a microcode field bit and is added = in at the ALU least-significant-bit-slice carry input. There is additional c= ircuitry to inhibit this carry input in special cases like internal register = address decodes, etc. On our GT40, we had a microcode PROM failure which took out this very carry s= ource bit. Thus our GT40 PC was incrementing by just one _incorrectly_ in mo= st cases where it should have been incrementing by two. Quite a coincidence = that your question came up soon after dealing with this :-) =E2=80=94FritzM. --===============0964632502688222925==-- From ball.of.john@gmail.com Thu Sep 7 02:37:13 2023 From: John Ball To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Walter Shawlee of Sphere, RIP Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 19:37:04 -0700 Message-ID: <4CBE904F1DF1415F9F335A27AEF5A9F1@Sparks> In-Reply-To: <169401960755.2847341.15272095670196650335@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7698650489717459077==" --===============7698650489717459077== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had heard he was in poor health due to a bad diagnosis but it's tragic to hear he's gone now. It was because his annual Free Stuff Days I was able to build up most of my lab equipment. Those were the days when you could still pull up and fill your car with all sorts of goodies. I bought my first real EPROM programmer (a 29B) from him. -John --===============7698650489717459077==-- From lars@nocrew.org Thu Sep 7 07:17:51 2023 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 07:17:46 +0000 Message-ID: <7wa5tysb8l.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <7B68D489-F531-4DBD-BD39-36D254B91B07@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6630639017232416104==" --===============6630639017232416104== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Koning wrote: > Even then it increments by 2, by special exception. So 112700, 1 > (movb #1,r0) fetches the instruction and increments PC by 2, then > fetches the word where the PC points and increments by 2, not 1, > again. It's not really a special exception because immediate mode is @(R7)+. --===============6630639017232416104==-- From useddec@gmail.com Thu Sep 7 08:44:53 2023 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Apollo motherboard 013034, 246402-01 available Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 03:44:36 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8091946242902478910==" --===============8091946242902478910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dated 1988, refurb? --===============8091946242902478910==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Sep 7 13:12:58 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:12:49 -0400 Message-ID: <09A0777A-17AC-493B-B56E-F9C82B1E9D78@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <7wa5tysb8l.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6193100248797643136==" --===============6193100248797643136== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 7, 2023, at 3:17 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >=20 > Paul Koning wrote: >> Even then it increments by 2, by special exception. So 112700, 1 >> (movb #1,r0) fetches the instruction and increments PC by 2, then >> fetches the word where the PC points and increments by 2, not 1, >> again. >=20 > It's not really a special exception because immediate mode is @(R7)+. (R7)+, actually; @(R7)+ is absolute. I meant "special exception" because aut= o inc/dec of R6 and R7 always increments by 1, while for R0-R5 it increments = by the datum size. paul --===============6193100248797643136==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Sep 7 13:16:09 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:15:58 -0400 Message-ID: <63FEBEFD-22F5-4193-AE3D-417F45483D9E@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <09A0777A-17AC-493B-B56E-F9C82B1E9D78@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1891365109402888021==" --===============1891365109402888021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:12 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 7, 2023, at 3:17 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >>=20 >> Paul Koning wrote: >>> Even then it increments by 2, by special exception. So 112700, 1 >>> (movb #1,r0) fetches the instruction and increments PC by 2, then >>> fetches the word where the PC points and increments by 2, not 1, >>> again. >>=20 >> It's not really a special exception because immediate mode is @(R7)+. >=20 > (R7)+, actually; @(R7)+ is absolute. I meant "special exception" because a= uto inc/dec of R6 and R7 always increments by 1, while for R0-R5 it increment= s by the datum size. Oops, typo. Of course, auto inc/dec of R6 and R7 (SP and PC) always incremen= t by TWO, while auto inc/dec of other registers increments by the size of wha= tever is accessed. paul --===============1891365109402888021==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Sep 7 14:35:24 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Setup for VCFMW Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:35:14 -0500 Message-ID: <8cd0f98d-4260-91db-a233-60c54c912148@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1219886606233786081==" --===============1219886606233786081== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What time is setup Tomorrow (Friday, 8-Sep-23) for VCFMW? --===============1219886606233786081==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Sep 7 16:20:54 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Setup for VCFMW Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 11:20:48 -0500 Message-ID: <82807245-8b35-60c6-7075-54ae6d2aceef@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <8cd0f98d-4260-91db-a233-60c54c912148@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3787734610659789592==" --===============3787734610659789592== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/7/23 09:35, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > What time is setup Tomorrow (Friday, 8-Sep-23) for VCFMW? They sent out a message to vendors that it would be open 10 AM to 10 PM, a few people would stay during the pizza dinner to allow latecomers to load their stuff. Jon --===============3787734610659789592==-- From steven@malikoff.com Thu Sep 7 21:49:43 2023 From: "steven@malikoff.com steven@malikoff.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 07:44:37 +1000 Message-ID: <912918008.711045.1694123077107@webmail-oxcs.register.com> In-Reply-To: <43c0f5ca-0f12-65a0-b048-eaef25e184b7@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4517997175133880409==" --===============4517997175133880409== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 09/07/2023 2:36 AM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk w= rote: > Does VAX have nothing to do with vacuum cleaners? Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many decades. = We had one until recently. https://www.vax.com.au/ Steve --===============4517997175133880409==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Sep 7 22:05:38 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 17:05:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <912918008.711045.1694123077107@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5532184443759626753==" --===============5532184443759626753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With Dorothy and the Tin Woodsman as their salespeople =F0=9F=A4=A3 I think those would be micro-vaxen because they are only single user. On 9/7/2023 4:44 PM, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >> On 09/07/2023 2:36 AM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >> Does VAX have nothing to do with vacuum cleaners? > Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many decades= . We had one until recently. > https://www.vax.com.au/ > > Steve --===============5532184443759626753==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Thu Sep 7 22:18:51 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 18:18:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8671889382773653547==" --===============8671889382773653547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi guys. Since I can't get out due to my stroke, be sure to post plenty of snaps of the event... Pizza hold the pepperoni. -Ken On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 6:06=E2=80=AFPM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > With Dorothy and the Tin Woodsman as their salespeople =F0=9F=A4=A3 > > I think those would be micro-vaxen because they are only single user. > > On 9/7/2023 4:44 PM, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: > >> On 09/07/2023 2:36 AM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: > >> Does VAX have nothing to do with vacuum cleaners? > > Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many > decades. We had one until recently. > > https://www.vax.com.au/ > > > > Steve > > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED --===============8671889382773653547==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Sep 7 23:32:50 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 18:32:44 -0500 Message-ID: <344aaaa9-d9a7-ef15-d6b6-3efca4089571@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8690238857151759130==" --===============8690238857151759130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/7/23 17:18, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Hi guys. > > Since I can't get out due to my stroke, be sure to post plenty of snaps of > the event... > Sorry to hear about that.  I had a very mild stroke 2 years ago, but it has affected dexterity in my right hand.  My writing is now horrible (my penmanship was never really great) and typing is more error prone than before. Jon --===============8690238857151759130==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Thu Sep 7 23:58:40 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 19:58:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <344aaaa9-d9a7-ef15-d6b6-3efca4089571@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0941849656663415380==" --===============0941849656663415380== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jon, Yea. It affected my left side. Loss of muscle strength. I am left handed and lost my strength but luckily can still type albeit slower. Good thing the keyboard has a backspace key. Fortunately I still get ideas but it sometimes takes awhile to write them down. -Ken On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 7:32=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 9/7/23 17:18, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > > Hi guys. > > > > Since I can't get out due to my stroke, be sure to post plenty of snaps > of > > the event... > > > Sorry to hear about that. I had a very mild stroke 2 years > ago, but it has affected dexterity in my right hand. My > writing is now horrible (my penmanship was never really > great) and typing is more error prone than before. > > Jon > > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED --===============0941849656663415380==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Sep 8 00:08:01 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 19:07:42 -0500 Message-ID: <32343c31-43ad-dbf2-4b45-00cb50d99683@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3385933889531211621==" --===============3385933889531211621== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My sympathies to both of you and wishes for a good and complete recovery. 2 years ago I had a heart attack in my dojo.=C2=A0=C2=A0 8 stents and a pacem= aker=20 later I was back on the mat in 3 weeks.=C2=A0 It was 6 months before I was=20 able to go full speed. Getting old sucks!!! On 9/7/2023 6:58 PM, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Jon, > > Yea. It affected my left side. Loss of muscle strength. I am left handed > and lost my strength but luckily can still type albeit slower. > > Good thing the keyboard has a backspace key. > > Fortunately I still get ideas but it sometimes takes awhile to write them > down. > > -Ken > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 7:32=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 9/7/23 17:18, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi guys. >>> >>> Since I can't get out due to my stroke, be sure to post plenty of snaps >> of >>> the event... >>> >> Sorry to hear about that. I had a very mild stroke 2 years >> ago, but it has affected dexterity in my right hand. My >> writing is now horrible (my penmanship was never really >> great) and typing is more error prone than before. >> >> Jon >> >> --===============3385933889531211621==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Fri Sep 8 00:12:43 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 17:12:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3FDF5B1A-77FA-4D50-80CD-819C46602D65@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: <32343c31-43ad-dbf2-4b45-00cb50d99683@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8411097414128792886==" --===============8411097414128792886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Safe recovery! Yes, the physical human OLD sucks (not the geeky-part <- guess= that keeps us more functioning) =20 - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tarek Hoteit tarek(a)infocom.ai +1 360-838-3675 https://infocom.ai > On Sep 7, 2023, at 5:07 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > My sympathies to both of you and wishes for a good and complete recovery. >=20 > 2 years ago I had a heart attack in my dojo. 8 stents and a pacemaker lat= er I was back on the mat in 3 weeks. It was 6 months before I was able to go= full speed. >=20 > Getting old sucks!!! >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 9/7/2023 6:58 PM, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: >> Jon, >>=20 >> Yea. It affected my left side. Loss of muscle strength. I am left handed >> and lost my strength but luckily can still type albeit slower. >>=20 >> Good thing the keyboard has a backspace key. >>=20 >> Fortunately I still get ideas but it sometimes takes awhile to write them >> down. >>=20 >> -Ken >>=20 >> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 7:32=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >>> On 9/7/23 17:18, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: >>>> Hi guys. >>>>=20 >>>> Since I can't get out due to my stroke, be sure to post plenty of snaps >>> of >>>> the event... >>>>=20 >>> Sorry to hear about that. I had a very mild stroke 2 years >>> ago, but it has affected dexterity in my right hand. My >>> writing is now horrible (my penmanship was never really >>> great) and typing is more error prone than before. >>>=20 >>> Jon >>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 --===============8411097414128792886==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Sep 8 00:26:05 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 19:25:43 -0500 Message-ID: <0ad8d847-e843-decb-639d-7ffe8da3bb06@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <3FDF5B1A-77FA-4D50-80CD-819C46602D65@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5268321114009415661==" --===============5268321114009415661== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Whom ever said youth is wasted on the young was telling a very serious truth. On 9/7/2023 7:12 PM, Tarek Hoteit wrote: > Safe recovery! Yes, the physical human OLD sucks (not the geeky-part > <- guess that keeps us more functioning) > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Tarek Hoteit > tarek(a)infocom.ai > +1 360-838-3675 > > https://infocom.ai > > > >> On Sep 7, 2023, at 5:07 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> My sympathies to both of you and wishes for a good and complete recovery. >> >> 2 years ago I had a heart attack in my dojo.   8 stents and a >> pacemaker later I was back on the mat in 3 weeks. It was 6 months >> before I was able to go full speed. >> >> Getting old sucks!!! >> >> >> >> On 9/7/2023 6:58 PM, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: >>> Jon, >>> >>> Yea. It affected my left side. Loss of muscle strength. I am left handed >>> and lost my strength but luckily can still type albeit slower. >>> >>> Good thing the keyboard has a backspace key. >>> >>> Fortunately I still get ideas but it sometimes takes awhile to write >>> them >>> down. >>> >>> -Ken >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 7:32 PM Jon Elson via cctalk >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 9/7/23 17:18, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Hi guys. >>>>> >>>>> Since I can't get out due to my stroke, be sure to post plenty of >>>>> snaps >>>> of >>>>> the event... >>>>> >>>> Sorry to hear about that.  I had a very mild stroke 2 years >>>> ago, but it has affected dexterity in my right hand.  My >>>> writing is now horrible (my penmanship was never really >>>> great) and typing is more error prone than before. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> >> > --===============5268321114009415661==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Fri Sep 8 00:38:46 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 17:38:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0ad8d847-e843-decb-639d-7ffe8da3bb06@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0539152728918119723==" --===============0539152728918119723== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TRUE! Only the vintage folks (us) would appreciate what or how we think Earlier today Paul Koning sent a post under a seperate thread =E2=80=9C=E2= =80=A6., (movb #1,r0) fetches the instruction and increments PC by 2, thfetc= hes the word where the PC points and increments by 2, not 1 again.=E2=80=9D A= nd then sent a correction "R7)+, actually; @(R7)+ is absolute. =E2=80=A6=E2= =80=9D. I swear when I read it, I thought how my 20yr old kids or even my l= ifelong wife would react if I echoed back the same words to them=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=A6=E2=80=A6=20 - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tarek Hoteit tarek(a)infocom.ai +1 360-838-3675 https://infocom.ai > On Sep 7, 2023, at 5:25 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >=20 > Whom ever said youth is wasted on the young was telling a very serious trut= h. >=20 > On 9/7/2023 7:12 PM, Tarek Hoteit wrote: >> Safe recovery! Yes, the physical human OLD sucks (not the geeky-part <- gu= ess that keeps us more functioning) =20 >>=20 >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> Tarek Hoteit >> tarek(a)infocom.ai >> +1 360-838-3675 >>=20 >> https://infocom.ai >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 5:07 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> My sympathies to both of you and wishes for a good and complete recovery. >>>=20 >>> 2 years ago I had a heart attack in my dojo. 8 stents and a pacemaker l= ater I was back on the mat in 3 weeks. It was 6 months before I was able to = go full speed. >>>=20 >>> Getting old sucks!!! >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 9/7/2023 6:58 PM, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: >>>> Jon, >>>>=20 >>>> Yea. It affected my left side. Loss of muscle strength. I am left handed >>>> and lost my strength but luckily can still type albeit slower. >>>>=20 >>>> Good thing the keyboard has a backspace key. >>>>=20 >>>> Fortunately I still get ideas but it sometimes takes awhile to write them >>>> down. >>>>=20 >>>> -Ken >>>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 7:32=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> On 9/7/23 17:18, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> Hi guys. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Since I can't get out due to my stroke, be sure to post plenty of snaps >>>>> of >>>>>> the event... >>>>>>=20 >>>>> Sorry to hear about that. I had a very mild stroke 2 years >>>>> ago, but it has affected dexterity in my right hand. My >>>>> writing is now horrible (my penmanship was never really >>>>> great) and typing is more error prone than before. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Jon >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 --===============0539152728918119723==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri Sep 8 01:20:31 2023 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 20:20:15 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <912918008.711045.1694123077107@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3053294947465900508==" --===============3053294947465900508== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: > Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many decades= . We had one until recently. > https://www.vax.com.au/ http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html --===============3053294947465900508==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 8 01:34:27 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 19:34:20 -0600 Message-ID: <9d915df6-45e2-c290-50cd-ff9e10f3a980@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <912918008.711045.1694123077107@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7180234408751170524==" --===============7180234408751170524== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-09-07 3:44 p.m., steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On 09/07/2023 2:36 AM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >> Does VAX have nothing to do with vacuum cleaners? >=20 > Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many decades= . We had one until recently. > https://www.vax.com.au/ >=20 > Steve I say a good item to have, when the bit bucket overflows. Ben. --===============7180234408751170524==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 8 13:21:09 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 09:20:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0688906311214656650==" --===============0688906311214656650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via > cctalk wrote: >> Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many decade= s. We had one until recently. >> https://www.vax.com.au/ > http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!"=C2=A0=C2=A0 :-) bill --===============0688906311214656650==-- From raymond.wiker@icloud.com Fri Sep 8 13:30:13 2023 From: raymond.wiker@icloud.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:29:46 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558085D16FDBEEE4CE79F8A8EDEDA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1110573424759300796==" --===============1110573424759300796== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 8 Sep 2023, at 15:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via >> cctalk wrote: >>> Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many decad= es. We had one until recently. >>> https://www.vax.com.au/ >> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html >=20 >=20 > "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) I remember seeing that slogan in the 80s, when I was a student in Glasgow. --===============1110573424759300796==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 8 13:36:56 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 09:36:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0402238970325834589==" --===============0402238970325834589== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/8/2023 9:29 AM, Raymond Wiker via cctalk wrote: > >> On 8 Sep 2023, at 15:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via >>> cctalk wrote: >>>> Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many deca= des. We had one until recently. >>>> https://www.vax.com.au/ >>> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html >> >> "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) > I remember seeing that slogan in the 80s, when I was a student in Glasgow. When it first showed up it was all the rage on comp.os.vms. And then I got the announcement signs on the side of the Central=20 Scranton Expressway here in PA announcing "Coming soon - VMS". Of course, that turned out to be The "Virtual Messaging System" which I=20 am sure people see on their highways every day any more. bill --===============0402238970325834589==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 17:58:01 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCO on Virtualbox Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:57:45 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8537778779700321775==" --===============8537778779700321775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 at 01:05, KenUnix via cctalk wr= ote: > > I have been experimenting with GhostBSD 64bit. It runs quite well under > Virtualbox Sorry for the very slow reply... Work is burying me, and I am somewhat crippled due to a pulverised right forearm. I am glad you've found something you're happy with! I do actually have GhostBSD on a Thinkpad here. I personally wasn't very impressed by it, but I have got somewhat more used to real FreeBSD and do occasionally use that these days. But if you're happy with it, great! --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8537778779700321775==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 18:11:36 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Moon (Was: PDP-8/L $15,000 Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 19:11:20 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4369407183597472339==" --===============4369407183597472339== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 01:29, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Then, one of the Sci-Fi magazines [...] in which the capsule settled down o= nto the moon, and > immediately sank irrevocably below kilometer thick layer of dust. I am strongly reminded of _A Fall of Moondust_ by Arthur C. Clarke. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4369407183597472339==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 18:13:56 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NewtonOS Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 19:13:41 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21818ED333C47EC2E7A0C148E4E6A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3476249547837546574==" --===============3476249547837546574== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 02:59, Wayne S via cctalk wr= ote: > > I used a newton and still have it a box. I have 2 of them myself. > It was heavy and very slow. Graffiti didn=E2=80=99t work very well either. The OMP was. I later bought a Newton 2100 and it's a very different beast. It's quite usable by comparison. Last year I played with a friends ReMarkable e-ink tablet, and I nearly wept. It is so utterly braindead by comparison. We have gone backwards, not forwards. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3476249547837546574==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 18:14:28 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 19:14:11 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <132eea05-5932-478f-8361-e90ec8347eeb@app.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6803668709541615467==" --===============6803668709541615467== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 17:25, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > I swear to God, Discord will be the end of the open Internet, it's where in= formation goes to die. I hate it with every fiber of my being. And yes, I use= it, I'm on many servers. I'm still allowed to detest it. 100% agreement from this end. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6803668709541615467==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 18:15:49 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP-8/L Is: $7900 (Was: PDP-8/L $15,000) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 14:15:33 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6544647862186869406==" --===============6544647862186869406== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Price change, https://www.ebay.com/itm/126067408991 Bill --===============6544647862186869406==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Sep 8 18:23:52 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NewtonOS Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:23:45 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5679784443620426358==" --===============5679784443620426358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an ipad 3 and it was absolutely great. Everything worked well on it un= til apple =F0=9F=8D=8E made IOS 10 which doesn=E2=80=99t run on it. Then, gra= dually, some apps, like Amazon Prime TV, were upgraded to use 10 and above an= d simply stopped working.=20 I probably won=E2=80=99t buy another Ipad just because of that.=20 Liem, sorry about your forearm. Get well and keep writing =E2=9C=8D=EF=B8=8F = Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2023, at 11:14, Liam Proven via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 02:59, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> I used a newton and still have it a box. >=20 > I have 2 of them myself. >=20 >> It was heavy and very slow. Graffiti didn=E2=80=99t work very well either. >=20 > The OMP was. >=20 > I later bought a Newton 2100 and it's a very different beast. It's > quite usable by comparison. >=20 > Last year I played with a friends ReMarkable e-ink tablet, and I > nearly wept. It is so utterly braindead by comparison. We have gone > backwards, not forwards. >=20 > --=20 > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5679784443620426358==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 18:48:45 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NewtonOS Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 19:48:28 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181811D716E93580450A512E4EDA=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4554161653970741420==" --===============4554161653970741420== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 19:23, Wayne S wrote: > > I have an ipad 3 and it was absolutely great. Everything worked well on it = until apple =F0=9F=8D=8E made IOS 10 which doesn=E2=80=99t run on it. Then, g= radually, some apps, like Amazon Prime TV, were upgraded to use 10 and above = and simply stopped working. It is funny you should say that: I have one too, and just today, I dug it out of its pouch for the first time since July. I had left it on! But it was in airplane mode, and so still had 15% battery. Amazing. I am trying to work out how to put my assortment of PDFs onto it so I can use it as an ebook reader. This is... not trivial. It was my mother's. When it was no longer able to run Skype, I bought her an iPad 5th Gen instead. This is the first model with the iPad Air form-factor. Her eyesight is very bad now -- retinal haemorrhage plus macular degeneration -- so then I got her a first-model iPad Pro. But, to my surprise, she prefers the smaller one, as it's much lighter to hold. I asked for and was given the cast-off iPad 3. > I probably won=E2=80=99t buy another Ipad just because of that. Well, I see your point. The device is badly crippled now, yes. Especially as I preferred iOS 9 -- the newer ones have a lot of bloat, like window tiling and pop-up floating windows, that just confuse her. I can see being aggrieved by the discontinuation of support. Personally I don't like the things much but I am trying to find a use for this old one. But if I _liked_ it, that's different. FWIW I always buy them used, from these guys: https://webuy.com/ The company was founded by a friend of mine, sadly long dead now. > Liem, sorry about your forearm. Get well and keep writing =E2=9C=8D=EF=B8=8F Thank you! --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4554161653970741420==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Sep 8 19:15:10 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NewtonOS Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 19:15:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0681413412294301554==" --===============0681413412294301554== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: PDF I use a free app Pdfreader to view and usually just email the pdfs i want to = read and save them that way.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2023, at 11:48, Liam Proven via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 19:23, Wayne S = wrote: >>=20 >> I have an ipad 3 and it was absolutely great. Everything worked well on it= until apple =F0=9F=8D=8E made IOS 10 which doesn=E2=80=99t run on it. Then, = gradually, some apps, like Amazon Prime TV, were upgraded to use 10 and above= and simply stopped working. >=20 > It is funny you should say that: I have one too, and just today, I dug > it out of its pouch for the first time since July. >=20 > I had left it on! But it was in airplane mode, and so still had 15% > battery. Amazing. >=20 > I am trying to work out how to put my assortment of PDFs onto it so I > can use it as an ebook reader. This is... not trivial. >=20 > It was my mother's. When it was no longer able to run Skype, I bought > her an iPad 5th Gen instead. This is the first model with the iPad Air > form-factor. >=20 > Her eyesight is very bad now -- retinal haemorrhage plus macular > degeneration -- so then I got her a first-model iPad Pro. But, to my > surprise, she prefers the smaller one, as it's much lighter to hold. >=20 > I asked for and was given the cast-off iPad 3. >=20 >> I probably won=E2=80=99t buy another Ipad just because of that. >=20 > Well, I see your point. The device is badly crippled now, yes. > Especially as I preferred iOS 9 -- the newer ones have a lot of bloat, > like window tiling and pop-up floating windows, that just confuse her. >=20 > I can see being aggrieved by the discontinuation of support. > Personally I don't like the things much but I am trying to find a use > for this old one. But if I _liked_ it, that's different. >=20 > FWIW I always buy them used, from these guys: https://webuy.com/ The > company was founded by a friend of mine, sadly long dead now. >=20 >> Liem, sorry about your forearm. Get well and keep writing =E2=9C=8D=EF=B8= =8F >=20 > Thank you! >=20 > --=20 > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============0681413412294301554==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Sep 8 19:33:20 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NewtonOS Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 19:33:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218142C3CF070F5F633A63CBE4EDA=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7649321872836035241==" --===============7649321872836035241== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: ipad 3 lack of support.=20 What gets me the most is that Apple doesn=E2=80=99t seem to allow old version= s of app on the store anymore. Seems that they force developers to use the ne= wer SDK which only supports IOS 10 and above. Hate That with a passion. Take care. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2023, at 12:15, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFRe: PDF > I use a free app Pdfreader to view and usually just email the pdfs i want t= o read and save them that way.=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 11:48, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 19:23, Wayne S wrote: >>>=20 >>> I have an ipad 3 and it was absolutely great. Everything worked well on i= t until apple =F0=9F=8D=8E made IOS 10 which doesn=E2=80=99t run on it. Then,= gradually, some apps, like Amazon Prime TV, were upgraded to use 10 and abov= e and simply stopped working. >>=20 >> It is funny you should say that: I have one too, and just today, I dug >> it out of its pouch for the first time since July. >>=20 >> I had left it on! But it was in airplane mode, and so still had 15% >> battery. Amazing. >>=20 >> I am trying to work out how to put my assortment of PDFs onto it so I >> can use it as an ebook reader. This is... not trivial. >>=20 >> It was my mother's. When it was no longer able to run Skype, I bought >> her an iPad 5th Gen instead. This is the first model with the iPad Air >> form-factor. >>=20 >> Her eyesight is very bad now -- retinal haemorrhage plus macular >> degeneration -- so then I got her a first-model iPad Pro. But, to my >> surprise, she prefers the smaller one, as it's much lighter to hold. >>=20 >> I asked for and was given the cast-off iPad 3. >>=20 >>> I probably won=E2=80=99t buy another Ipad just because of that. >>=20 >> Well, I see your point. The device is badly crippled now, yes. >> Especially as I preferred iOS 9 -- the newer ones have a lot of bloat, >> like window tiling and pop-up floating windows, that just confuse her. >>=20 >> I can see being aggrieved by the discontinuation of support. >> Personally I don't like the things much but I am trying to find a use >> for this old one. But if I _liked_ it, that's different. >>=20 >> FWIW I always buy them used, from these guys: https://webuy.com/ The >> company was founded by a friend of mine, sadly long dead now. >>=20 >>> Liem, sorry about your forearm. Get well and keep writing =E2=9C=8D=EF=B8= =8F >>=20 >> Thank you! >>=20 >> --=20 >> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >> Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com >> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven >> IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 >> Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7649321872836035241==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 19:59:01 2023 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:58:41 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0590905453850824107==" --===============0590905453850824107== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but I'm somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to create an open-source USB adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). Is such a thing possible? I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of formats that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? Any pointers are appreciated! Anders www.andersknelson.com --===============0590905453850824107==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 8 20:10:02 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 13:09:50 -0700 Message-ID: <112b73ad-d022-e426-fd93-bca4c16ea403@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7483803963485980865==" --===============7483803963485980865== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/8/23 12:58, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p > connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> > 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. > > I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but I'm > somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to > create an open-source USB adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" > disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). > Is such a thing possible? > > I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip > which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs > headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. > > I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of formats > that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the > community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? > > Any pointers are appreciated! Hard-sector or soft-sector? Easiest thing for most cases is to hook it to a legacy floppy on a PC. Call the disk a 1.2MB 5.25" and you'll be fine. --Chuck --===============7483803963485980865==-- From milovelimirovic@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 20:12:33 2023 From: Milo =?utf-8?q?Velimirovi=C4=87?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L Is: $7900 (Was: PDP-8/L $15,000) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:12:17 -0500 Message-ID: <286B22DE-62F2-46EB-B488-5C51DB9D74D9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4980685460050320486==" --===============4980685460050320486== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 8, 2023, at 1:15 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Price change, > https://www.ebay.com/itm/126067408991 > Bill Still too spicy :) --===============4980685460050320486==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 8 20:15:25 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 13:15:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0489122391769798335==" --===============0489122391769798335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p > connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> > 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. very few of the lines need to be rearraanged, so you can just twist a few wires in a cable. One exception is that if you need the TG43 signal for writing, then you will need additional circuitry. > I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but I'm > somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to > create an open-source USB adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" > disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). > Is such a thing possible? Sure. Ine the very early days of external USB floppies, there existed a rare few in which the circuitry was a general purpose FDC. All currently produced ones are locked in to only supporting a couple of PC 3.5" formats. Look for "mode 3", which is support for the NEC format, which is compatible with 8" formats, IFF you can modify the hardware to work. > I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip > which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs > headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. Yes. It is called "IBM format", but that is confusing, since it is talking about the track structure that IBM designed (3740?), NOT about IBM PC (which does use that structure) > I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of formats > that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the > community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? Not everybody will agree, but, . . . NEC modified their 3.5" drives to be 360RPM, same as their 5.25" 1.2M drives, and 8" drives. Thus, they used the same format on all three sizes! http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html#8 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0489122391769798335==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Sep 8 20:16:30 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:16:24 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0374607261401111873==" --===============0374607261401111873== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2023, at 13:15, Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >> Hi all, >> I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p >> connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> >> 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. >=20 > very few of the lines need to be rearraanged, so you can just twist a few w= ires in a cable. One exception is that if you need the TG43 signal for writi= ng, then you will need additional circuitry. >=20 >> I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but I'm >> somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to >> create an open-source USB >> adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" >> disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). >> Is such a thing possible? >=20 > Sure. Ine the very early days of external USB floppies, there existed a ra= re few in which the circuitry was a general purpose FDC. All currently produ= ced ones are locked in to only supporting a couple of PC 3.5" formats. Look = for "mode 3", which is support for the NEC format, which is compatible with 8= " formats, IFF you can modify the hardware to work. >=20 >> I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip >> which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs >> headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. >=20 > Yes. It is called "IBM format", but that is confusing, since it is talking= about the track structure that IBM designed (3740?), NOT about IBM PC (which= does use that structure) >=20 >> I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of formats >> that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the >> community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? >=20 > Not everybody will agree, but, . . . > NEC modified their 3.5" drives to be 360RPM, same as their 5.25" 1.2M drive= s, and 8" drives. Thus, they used the same format on all three sizes! >=20 > http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html#8 >=20 >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0374607261401111873==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Sep 8 20:22:03 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:21:54 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8174985200987878968==" --===============8174985200987878968== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2023, at 13:16, Wayne S wrote: >=20 >> but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). Anders, for what practical purpose would you do that?=20 It=E2=80=99s not like there=E2=80=99s so many 8 inch floppies around to make = it feasible. You would have to have a LOT of intelligence in the Usb interfac= e due to the different physical formats let alone the software formats.=20 It would be difficult. --===============8174985200987878968==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Sep 8 20:26:08 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L Is: $7900 (Was: PDP-8/L $15,000) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:26:01 -0400 Message-ID: <547fa4bd-c175-8dd9-745c-8e3965283883@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <286B22DE-62F2-46EB-B488-5C51DB9D74D9@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6510448710909693018==" --===============6510448710909693018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But more reasonable. Get down to 4k and it's interesting. C On 9/8/2023 4:12 PM, Milo Velimirovi=C4=87 via cctalk wrote: > >> On Sep 8, 2023, at 1:15 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >> Price change, >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/126067408991 >> Bill > Still too spicy :) --===============6510448710909693018==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 20:40:21 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 21:40:13 +0100 Message-ID: <4233b79a-dea9-4a16-9ab2-0e5dc40954a3@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0561284016360023388==" --===============0561284016360023388== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit « Everything I know about floppy disks 2023-08-28 Floppy disk drives are curious things. We know them as the slots that ingest those small almost-square plastic "floppy disks" and we only really see them now in Computer Museums. But there's a lot going on in that humble square of plastic and I wanted to write down what I've learned so far. » https://thejpster.org.uk/blog/blog-2023-08-28/ -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven IoM: +44 7624 227612 ~ UK: +44 7939-087884 ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 --===============0561284016360023388==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Fri Sep 8 21:17:20 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 14:07:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558085D16FDBEEE4CE79F8A8EDEDA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3661242501835878808==" --===============3661242501835878808== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 8, 2023, at 6:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via >> cctalk wrote: >>> Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many decad= es. We had one until recently. >>> https://www.vax.com.au/ >> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html >=20 >=20 > "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) >=20 >=20 > bill >=20 >=20 I rather like the old Trade Show button from WordPerfect that is sitting on t= op of the Keyboard I=E2=80=99m using to type this (an old Apple ADB Extended = II Keyboard via USB converter), it says =E2=80=9CLoyal to VAX=E2=80=9D. I normally have a physical VAX running 24x7. It was shutdown recently, but o= nly due to high temps, and it=E2=80=99s back online now. Zane --===============3661242501835878808==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 8 21:24:32 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 14:24:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4233b79a-dea9-4a16-9ab2-0e5dc40954a3@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3656419923220664583==" --===============3656419923220664583== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Everything I know about floppy disks > 2023-08-28 > Floppy disk drives are curious things. We know them as the slots that inges= t=20 > those small almost-square plastic "floppy disks" and we only really see the= m=20 > now in Computer Museums. But there's a lot going on in that humble square o= f=20 > plastic and I wanted to write down what I've learned so far. > https://thejpster.org.uk/blog/blog-2023-08-28/ It's got some really good stuff, but some things that are awkward,=20 although few totally WRONG. For example, he says that 8" drives have 40 tracks. It's 77, and that=20 becomes important. He mentions that 100tpi drives are 77 track, but doesn't mention WHY they=20 aren't 80. He says that 1.2M drives are 360 RPM, but mis-states that as being to=20 compensate for inadequacy of the media, rather than that it was to match=20 8" He gets the track width right as the reason why 1.2M drives are bad at=20 writing 40 track disks, but erroneously thinks that the coercivity of the=20 HD disk is a reason. (1.2M drives handle both 300 and 600 Oersted disks) He correctly explains "quad density" drives, but doesn't implicate=20 marketing for the ambiguous naming. I don't care for his explanation of MFM. "If you programmed the controller to run at 250 kbit/sec on a 360 rpm=20 drive, the end of the track would crash into the start of the track and=20 the data would be corrupted." could more correctly say that the track is=20 too short and would overlap, not "crash into". His table of disk formats is somewhat sparse, and on PC fails to note the=20 importance of minor version number of DOS (720K was dos 3.20; 1.4M was DOS=20 3.30). He does an excellent job of explaining why a "1.44MB" disk is 1.4M, NOT=20 1.44M. Overall, a good start, for MOST aspects. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3656419923220664583==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 21:33:25 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 22:33:08 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0922700511118027893==" --===============0922700511118027893== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 22:24, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > It's got some really good stuff, but some things that are awkward, > although few totally WRONG. [...] > Overall, a good start, for MOST aspects. That is high praise indeed, I think! :-) -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============0922700511118027893==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 8 21:41:18 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 14:41:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1438527350678443849==" --===============1438527350678443849== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> It's got some really good stuff, but some things that are awkward, >> although few totally WRONG. > [...] >> Overall, a good start, for MOST aspects. > On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > That is high praise indeed, I think! :-) He has an "About Me" page,and even his CV, but goes to some effort to avoid stating his NAME! (Jonathan Pallant) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1438527350678443849==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 21:44:39 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 22:44:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6753540465074421041==" --===============6753540465074421041== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 22:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > He has an "About Me" page,and even his CV, but goes to some effort to > avoid stating his NAME! (Jonathan Pallant) I noticed that, too. I think it's [a] the modern internet way, and [2] may be connected with his efforts to get into politics... maybe? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6753540465074421041==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 8 21:53:53 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 14:53:49 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2642710072258559639==" --===============2642710072258559639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> He has an "About Me" page,and even his CV, but goes to some effort to >> avoid stating his NAME! (Jonathan Pallant) On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I noticed that, too. I think it's [a] the modern internet way, and [2] > may be connected with his efforts to get into politics... maybe? https://github.com/thejpster When Ronald Reagan got into politics, I wrote him a postcard pleading him NOT TO. I said, "Hollywood needs you." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2642710072258559639==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 21:57:50 2023 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 17:57:28 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21819D766007515688B71FFCE4EDA=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1753875626749766989==" --===============1753875626749766989== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Wayne, For sure the controller would have to do a lot more, but I know firmware pretty well and BIOS/ancient OSes not at all! =F0=9F=98=85 On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 4:22 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 8, 2023, at 13:16, Wayne S wrote: > > > >> but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). > > Anders, for what practical purpose would you do that? > It=E2=80=99s not like there=E2=80=99s so many 8 inch floppies around to mak= e it feasible. > You would have to have a LOT of intelligence in the Usb interface due to > the different physical formats let alone the software formats. > It would be difficult. > > > --===============1753875626749766989==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 22:01:53 2023 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:00:01 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2081432367271280370==" --===============2081432367271280370== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chuck, The drive is a Qume Qumetrak 242 so I assume soft sector? I'm open to correction. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 4:15 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p > > connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> > > 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. > > very few of the lines need to be rearraanged, so you can just twist a few > wires in a cable. One exception is that if you need the TG43 signal for > writing, then you will need additional circuitry. > > > I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but > I'm > > somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to > > create an open-source USB adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" > > disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block > device). > > Is such a thing possible? > > Sure. Ine the very early days of external USB floppies, there existed a > rare few in which the circuitry was a general purpose FDC. All currently > produced ones are locked in to only supporting a couple of PC 3.5" > formats. Look for "mode 3", which is support for the NEC format, which is > compatible with 8" formats, IFF you can modify the hardware to work. > > > I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip > > which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs > > headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. > > Yes. It is called "IBM format", but that is confusing, since it is > talking about the track structure that IBM designed (3740?), NOT about IBM > PC (which does use that structure) > > > I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of > formats > > that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the > > community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? > > Not everybody will agree, but, . . . > NEC modified their 3.5" drives to be 360RPM, same as their 5.25" 1.2M > drives, and 8" drives. Thus, they used the same format on all three > sizes! > > http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html#8 > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============2081432367271280370==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 22:04:52 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 23:04:36 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6038820181862572279==" --===============6038820181862572279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 22:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > When Ronald Reagan got into politics, I wrote him a postcard pleading him > NOT TO. I said, "Hollywood needs you." It's a real shame that didn't work. AIUI the repeal of Glass-Steagal caused a lot of the problems we're in today, and while that happened under Clinton, the process _started_ under Ronnie. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6038820181862572279==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 8 22:20:41 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:20:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6996436016435132590==" --===============6996436016435132590== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>> but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). >> Anders, for what practical purpose would you do that? >> It=E2=80=99s not like there=E2=80=99s so many 8 inch floppies around to ma= ke it feasible. >> You would have to have a LOT of intelligence in the Usb interface due to >> the different physical formats let alone the software formats. >> It would be difficult. On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hi Wayne, > For sure the controller would have to do a lot more, but I know firmware > pretty well and BIOS/ancient OSes not at all! =F0=9F=98=85 It would still be handy to have a USB device that operates as a "normal"=20 fully functional FDC. It would make it possible to add floppies to devices without them, and/or=20 add more or different floppies to devices that do have them. The basic software for it could be in flash RAM in the same USB device. Source code for the IBM PC BIOS was published. For floppies, you need Int13h, and there is a table of parameters pointed=20 to by Int1Eh. Handling formats other than PC, auch as CP/M, P-System, TRSDOS, MS=20 Stand-Alone BASIC, Mac "1.44MB", etc. would require additional code. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6996436016435132590==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 22:27:24 2023 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:27:09 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6145914722373016273==" --===============6145914722373016273== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree, and that generic USB FDC is already available: https://github.com/dhansel/ArduinoFDC If I can simply select 5 1/4 floppy mode and it'll work with an 8" disk, I guess I don't need anything else? On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 6:20 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>>> but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). > > >> Anders, for what practical purpose would you do that? > >> It’s not like there’s so many 8 inch floppies around to make it > feasible. > >> You would have to have a LOT of intelligence in the Usb interface due to > >> the different physical formats let alone the software formats. > >> It would be difficult. > > On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Wayne, > > For sure the controller would have to do a lot more, but I know firmware > > pretty well and BIOS/ancient OSes not at all! 😅 > > It would still be handy to have a USB device that operates as a "normal" > fully functional FDC. > It would make it possible to add floppies to devices without them, and/or > add more or different floppies to devices that do have them. > The basic software for it could be in flash RAM in the same USB device. > > Source code for the IBM PC BIOS was published. > For floppies, you need Int13h, and there is a table of parameters pointed > to by Int1Eh. > > Handling formats other than PC, auch as CP/M, P-System, TRSDOS, MS > Stand-Alone BASIC, Mac "1.44MB", etc. would require additional code. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6145914722373016273==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 22:44:25 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:44:09 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7633810064435297524==" --===============7633810064435297524== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Apple Disk ][ information needs some editing as well. And then there's the part suggesting the Commodore 1541 was more popular than the Disk ][. What utter pishposh. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 3:04=E2=80=AFPM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 22:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > When Ronald Reagan got into politics, I wrote him a postcard pleading him > > NOT TO. I said, "Hollywood needs you." > > It's a real shame that didn't work. > > AIUI the repeal of Glass-Steagal caused a lot of the problems we're in > today, and while that happened under Clinton, the process _started_ > under Ronnie. > Which were continuations of policies under Carter, that started with Ford, that began with Nixon, that initiated under Johnson, that originated with Kennedy, that were rooted in what Eisenhower did, which was based on Truman policies, inspired by Roosevelt....... Sellam --===============7633810064435297524==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 8 22:48:43 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:48:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4265312657078596252==" --===============4265312657078596252== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> It would still be handy to have a USB device that operates as a "normal" >> fully functional FDC. On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson wrote: > I agree, and that generic USB FDC is already available: > https://github.com/dhansel/ArduinoFDC > If I can simply select 5 1/4 floppy mode and it'll work with an 8" disk, I > guess I don't need anything else? An 8" drive and a 5.25" 1.2M drive look the same to whatever they are connected to, with a few trivial exceptions 8" is 50 pin; 5.25" is 34 pin. The very first 1.2M 5.25 that I encountered (purchased at a swap) was a pre-release/prototype? Mitsubishi 4854, and had a 50 pin connector! I heard from some of the usual unreliable sources that when the AT BIOS was being modified for 1.2M, some of the programmers thought that IBM was adding an 8" drive! 8" is 77 track, 1.2M is 80 track. Therefore, trying to format an 8" disk as 1.2M without special software will fail on tracks 77-79 For writing, TG43 provides write pre-compensation. not needed for reading. BTW, 8" power connectors were not standardized, so different brands of drives will need different connectors. READY/DISK-CHANGED on pin 34 was not standardized, and can confuse the system is wrong. Ideally, you would also want 8" SSSD, as that was "THE STANDARD" format for CP/M. The PC formats are/were all 512 bytes per sector; other formats had 1024, 256, and occasionally 128. Many PC FDCs can not handle FM/SD, and many can't handle 128 bytes per sector. I;m forgetting numerous other items, so those are left as an exercise for the reader :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4265312657078596252==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 22:54:22 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:54:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5731789039981596772==" --===============5731789039981596772== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have had better luck with a P-III motherboard that connects to the 34-50 pin adapter in the middle and 8" on the other end. This way you can trick the BIOS of the computer to think the 8" drive is a 1.2Mb 5 1/4". With this set up I have made a bootable DOS 6.22 8" disk, so I know it works. THEN use the USB port to copy files as a separate drive. The USB to floppy devices are pretty good for 3.5" but I would not expect a direct adapter from the 8" to be reliable. Bill On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 3:59 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p > connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> > 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. > > I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but I'm > somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to > create an open-source USB adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" > disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). > Is such a thing possible? > > I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip > which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs > headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. > > I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of formats > that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the > community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? > > Any pointers are appreciated! > > Anders > www.andersknelson.com > --===============5731789039981596772==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 8 23:02:32 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:02:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1180357505688404592==" --===============1180357505688404592== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > The Apple Disk ][ information needs some editing as well. And then there's > the part suggesting the Commodore 1541 was more popular than the Disk ][. > What utter pishposh. There are many details to flesh out things such as Apple, such as 13 VS 16 sector per track and the corresponding differences in the GCR. 35 track VS 40 (also applicable for TRS80) I always wanted the Sorrento Valley FDC for Apple2 Does "more popular" mean sold more units, or does it mean better liked by its owners? :-) I never had a Commodore 64! but, I had an MSD drive for Commodore 64 that interfaced with it with IEC? and IEEE488. What about the Amiga? with MFM, but not IBM/WD track/sector structure It's odd that he brings up things such as 100tpi drives (VS 96tpi) and 3" (but not 3.25" on which Dysan bet the company), the very early 40 track 3.5", the use of FDC for certain tape drives, LS120, but not floptical, ZIP, etc. And, of course the Kodak high density 5.25" and Amlyn juke box :-) To be fully complete with the level of esoterics that he does mention would require a LOT more content. Whereas a good proofread, and rewrite of some sections could make it a good reference for many parts. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1180357505688404592==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 8 23:05:43 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:05:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2035663385649049498==" --===============2035663385649049498== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have had better luck with a P-III motherboard that connects to the 34-50 > pin adapter in the middle and 8" on the other end. This way you can trick > the BIOS of the computer to think the 8" drive is a 1.2Mb 5 1/4". With > this set up I have made a bootable DOS 6.22 8" disk, so I know it works. > THEN use the USB port to copy files as a separate drive. The USB to floppy > devices are pretty good for 3.5" but I would not expect a direct adapter > from the 8" to be reliable. A USB to floppy device that supports 5.25" 1.2M "should" work. A USB to floppy device that supports the 3.5" "mode 3"/NEC98 (360RPM 3.5") might be coercible into working. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2035663385649049498==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 23:20:24 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:20:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6883930105769094474==" --===============6883930105769094474== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 4:02=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I always wanted the Sorrento Valley FDC for Apple2 > I've seen one in the wild before, but the guy didn't want to sell it with the pile of Lisas I bought from him. It's possible I have documentation for it. Does "more popular" mean sold more units, or does it mean better liked by > its owners? :-) > I'm positive the Disk ][ was better liked by its owners than that glorified tape drive called the 1541. > I never had a Commodore 64! but, I had an MSD drive for Commodore 64 that > interfaced with it with IEC? and IEEE488. > I sold one of those within the past couple years. > To be fully complete with the level of esoterics that he does mention > would require a LOT more content. Whereas a good proofread, and rewrite > of some sections could make it a good reference for many parts. I think it's something the author wrote in one fell swoop, i.e. "everything I know about floppy disks". Sellam --===============6883930105769094474==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Fri Sep 8 23:59:05 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 19:58:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1571812151216414647==" --===============1571812151216414647== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zane is it accessible remotely? Just curious.. -Ken On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Sep 8, 2023, at 6:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- v= ia > >> cctalk wrote: > >>> Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many > decades. We had one until recently. > >>> https://www.vax.com.au/ > >> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html > > > > > > "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) > > > > > > bill > > > > > > I rather like the old Trade Show button from WordPerfect that is sitting > on top of the Keyboard I=E2=80=99m using to type this (an old Apple ADB Ext= ended II > Keyboard via USB converter), it says =E2=80=9CLoyal to VAX=E2=80=9D. > > I normally have a physical VAX running 24x7. It was shutdown recently, > but only due to high temps, and it=E2=80=99s back online now. > > Zane > > > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED --===============1571812151216414647==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Sep 9 00:01:36 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 17:01:26 -0700 Message-ID: <396da7ec-78ab-7378-6d7b-305af3089729@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8602698570724194513==" --===============8602698570724194513== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/8/23 15:00, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > The drive is a Qume Qumetrak 242 so I assume soft sector? I'm open to > correction. > Mostly. Most drives can, with the proper logic be made to read and write hard-sector disks. You just don't get separate SECTOR/ and INDEX/ outputs. I read hard sector floppies in an 842, for example and it lacks the hard-sector support logic. On the other hand, my Siemens FDD 200 have the logic, along with a configurable sector divider (32,16,8 sectors) as well as an optional data separator. There is a lot of variation in 8" drives. --Chuck --===============8602698570724194513==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Sep 9 00:08:22 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 17:08:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8234084884379308458==" --===============8234084884379308458== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/8/23 15:20, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: pretty well and BIOS/ancient OSes not at all! 😅 > > It would still be handy to have a USB device that operates as a "normal" > fully functional FDC. > It would make it possible to add floppies to devices without them, > and/or add more or different floppies to devices that do have them. > The basic software for it could be in flash RAM in the same USB device. I use a STM32F4 MCU for my floppy work (and my tape work also). Half a meg of program flash and 192KB of SRAM on-chip, running at 168MHz. But my interface is strictly by image file. The USB connection is strictly for file transfer and terminal operation. One does a whole disk at a time, since the bulk storage interface is SD Card. Currently, I'm limited to 32GB there. I'm interested in recovering data, not running games. --Chuck --===============8234084884379308458==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Sep 9 00:10:56 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:10:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6347472938662976704==" --===============6347472938662976704== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/8/2023 5:07 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > >> On Sep 8, 2023, at 6:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via >>> cctalk wrote: >>>> Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many deca= des. We had one until recently. >>>> https://www.vax.com.au/ >>> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html >> >> "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) >> >> >> bill >> >> > I rather like the old Trade Show button from WordPerfect that is sitting on= top of the Keyboard I=E2=80=99m using to type this (an old Apple ADB Extende= d II Keyboard via USB converter), it says =E2=80=9CLoyal to VAX=E2=80=9D. > > I normally have a physical VAX running 24x7. It was shutdown recently, but= only due to high temps, and it=E2=80=99s back online now. > I've been thinking of bringing up a VAX again.=C2=A0 I think I can fix my VXT= =20 and I think I now have some hardware that will let me put a PC class LCD monitor on it. VAXStations just aren't much fun without the graphics. bill --===============6347472938662976704==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Sun Sep 10 06:22:12 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 06:21:59 +0000 Message-ID: <2076746419.10090810.1694326919318@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8624483645175101673==" --===============8624483645175101673== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Paul,=20 how are you doing? Hope that healthwise, things are fine on your side since o= ur last conversations a few years ago. I bought an RK611 controller back then= from you.=20 Just came accross your below post and was wondering if you have any CI750-rel= ated equipment around? I have the boards, but one has broken ICs. I am also missing the CI750 backpl= ane.=20 Let me know if you happen to remember to have anything around related to that= piece of equipment that allows to connect a 11/750 to a CI-network.=20 Thanks,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Montag, 4. September 2023 um 06:58:47 MESZ hat Paul Anderson via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben:=20 I just found a box of 11/150 and 11/780 prints including FP750, FP780 and CI780.I have other prints and manuals of which some are available. If you like compatible boards I have over 100 Dilog, Emulex, CMD, etc boards I also have BA11-M, N, and S Qbus boxes and several hundred boards. I can configure a system pretty much any way you want it. Paul On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 3:27=E2=80=AFAM Paul Anderson wr= ote: > I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and keep > finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest include: > PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board > MM8-AA/AB > 8-E boxes and boards > DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts > A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes > a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu > VS40X 4 plane color options > SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU > Tape drive heads > LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts > various VTs and monitors and parts > MFM and floppy drives > Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards > 1000s of DEC boards and parts > possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts > > If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off list > to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I have > quite a lot of DEC items. > > If you have any questions contact me off list. > --===============8624483645175101673==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sun Sep 10 09:06:51 2023 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 04:06:33 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2076746419.10090810.1694326919318@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2351174696683549608==" --===============2351174696683549608== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pierre, Yes, I remember and I'm doing ok thanks. I hope all is well with you. I just found a CI750 print set last week, But I won't have much time to look at it for a week or so. If you send me the board part number and the chip number I should be able to find you the part number. Thanks, Paul On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 1:22=E2=80=AFAM P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Hello Paul, > > how are you doing? Hope that healthwise, things are fine on your side > since our last conversations a few years ago. I bought an RK611 controller > back then from you. > Just came accross your below post and was wondering if you have any > CI750-related equipment around? > I have the boards, but one has broken ICs. I am also missing the CI750 > backplane. > Let me know if you happen to remember to have anything around related to > that piece of equipment that allows to connect a 11/750 to a CI-network. > > > Thanks, > Pierre > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de > > > > > > > Am Montag, 4. September 2023 um 06:58:47 MESZ hat Paul Anderson via cctalk > Folgendes geschrieben: > > > > > > I just found a box of 11/150 and 11/780 prints including FP750, FP780 and > CI780.I have other prints and manuals of which some are available. > > If you like compatible boards I have over 100 Dilog, Emulex, CMD, etc > boards > > I also have BA11-M, N, and S Qbus boxes and several hundred boards. I can > configure a system pretty much any way you want it. > > Paul > > On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 3:27=E2=80=AFAM Paul Anderson = wrote: > > > I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and keep > > finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest > include: > > PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board > > MM8-AA/AB > > 8-E boxes and boards > > DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts > > A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes > > a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu > > VS40X 4 plane color options > > SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU > > Tape drive heads > > LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts > > various VTs and monitors and parts > > MFM and floppy drives > > Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards > > 1000s of DEC boards and parts > > possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts > > > > If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off > list > > to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I have > > quite a lot of DEC items. > > > > If you have any questions contact me off list. > > > --===============2351174696683549608==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Sun Sep 10 12:47:27 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fw: Re: VCFMW Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 12:47:21 +0000 Message-ID: <1139411936.10198576.1694350041130@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2076746419.10090810.1694326919318@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1787016292253197460==" --===============1787016292253197460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies to the list for the noise. This email was supposed to be sent directly to Paul, my mistake.=20 Have a nice Sunday,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de ----- Weitergeleitete Nachricht ----- Von: P Gebhardt An: Paul Anderson via cctalk Gesendet: Sonntag, 10. September 2023 um 08:21:59 MESZ Betreff: Re: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW Hello Paul,=20 how are you doing? Hope that healthwise, things are fine on your side since o= ur last conversations a few years ago. I bought an RK611 controller back then= from you.=20 Just came accross your below post and was wondering if you have any CI750-rel= ated equipment around? I have the boards, but one has broken ICs. I am also missing the CI750 backpl= ane.=20 Let me know if you happen to remember to have anything around related to that= piece of equipment that allows to connect a 11/750 to a CI-network.=20 Thanks,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Montag, 4. September 2023 um 06:58:47 MESZ hat Paul Anderson via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben:=20 I just found a box of 11/150 and 11/780 prints including FP750, FP780 and CI780.I have other prints and manuals of which some are available. If you like compatible boards I have over 100 Dilog, Emulex, CMD, etc boards I also have BA11-M, N, and S Qbus boxes and several hundred boards. I can configure a system pretty much any way you want it. Paul On Sat, Sep 2, 2023 at 3:27=E2=80=AFAM Paul Anderson wr= ote: > I've started pulling parts for people who have requested them and keep > finding things I had forgotten. A few things of possible interest include: > PDP-8A parts including backplanes, most CPU boards, 128K, MM board > MM8-AA/AB > 8-E boxes and boards > DECMATE Rainbow, and PRO systems and parts > A few 11/05, 11/10 boxes > a new 54-21149 KN15 cpu > VS40X 4 plane color options > SI-QS 1000 board labeled QED 993 CPU > Tape drive heads > LA36, LA120, and other printers and parts > various VTs and monitors and parts > MFM and floppy drives > Qbus boxes and hundreds of boards > 1000s of DEC boards and parts > possible a few 3000 and 5000 boxes and parts > > If anyone wants to stop by and look for things, please contact me off list > to set up a time. Most of the people who have stopped by would say I have > quite a lot of DEC items. > > If you have any questions contact me off list. > --===============1787016292253197460==-- From jay-cctalk0092@toaster.com Sun Sep 10 14:16:29 2023 From: Jay Logue To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 07:11:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0228902913231666701==" --===============0228902913231666701== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/8/2023 16:02, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > It's odd that he brings up things such as 100tpi drives (VS 96tpi) > and 3" (but not 3.25" on which Dysan bet the company), the very early > 40 track 3.5", > the use of FDC for certain tape drives, LS120, but not floptical, ZIP, > etc. > And, of course the Kodak high density 5.25" and Amlyn juke box :-) > > To be fully complete with the level of esoterics that he does mention > would require a LOT more content.  Whereas a good proofread, and > rewrite of some sections could make it a good reference for many parts. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com Has anyone reached out with corrections? --Jay --===============0228902913231666701==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sun Sep 10 14:22:08 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 15:21:51 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8707453123637381751==" --===============8707453123637381751== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 10 Sept 2023 at 15:16, Jay Logue via cctalk wrote: > > Has anyone reached out with corrections? Yes, me. I pointed him at Fred's response, he was very pleased, and he's updated it. (I can't see much difference but I am not so expert as Mr Cisin at this stuff. There's a revision history on Github. Aside: Also on Github if you know where to find me is my own 25YO website, which I recently recovered from the Internet Archive, fixed a few links, and re-uploaded. I am wondering what to do with it. It needs 23 years of maintenance and who has the time? I saw a post somewhere -- can't find it now -- on hosting a homepage _without using HTML_ which was very impressive. I am considering doing this, and rather than trying to update my awful 1990s HTML, actually downgrading it. Did anyone see that site? It was a mixture of plain text and a tiny bit of Unicode cleverness, I think. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8707453123637381751==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Sun Sep 10 14:35:32 2023 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 15:35:27 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6865600186022335936==" --===============6865600186022335936== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 09/09/2023 00:02, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > It's odd that he brings up things such as 100tpi drives (VS 96tpi) > and 3" (but not 3.25" on which Dysan bet the company), the very early > 40 track 3.5", > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com What confused me, is that i believe the 3.5" Sony Microfloppy originally had 70 tracks. I'm personally completely oblivious to any 40-track 3.5" microfloppy formats. I have a pair of Sony OA-D30V drives, which i believe were the first commercially available 3.5" microfloppy drives, and they have a single head. The format the machine that they're linked up to only uses 70 tracks (though the drives might be capable of a few more?) for a SSDD format of 315KB. 40 track 3.5" microfloppy drives therefore seem more of a branching derivative rather than the "predecessor" that the article seems to allude to. Unless, of course, we're talking of an unrelated format that just used the same size disks... The early Sony Microfloppy is definitely not quite the standard "modern" 3.5" floppy disk we're aware of today, but is still largely compatible with modern disks, with slight modification. Namely the drives have no mechanism of opening the shutters, so i've found the easiest method is taping the shutters on the disks open with a bit of sellotape. Josh Rice --===============6865600186022335936==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Sep 10 15:09:22 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 08:09:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6356167110446898276==" --===============6356167110446898276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/10/23 07:35, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > What confused me, is that i believe the 3.5" Sony Microfloppy originally > had 70 tracks. I'm personally completely oblivious to any 40-track 3.5" > microfloppy formats. > > I have a pair of Sony OA-D30V drives, which i believe were the first > commercially available 3.5" microfloppy drives, and they have a single > head. The format the machine that they're linked up to only uses 70 > tracks (though the drives might be capable of a few more?) for a SSDD > format of 315KB. > > 40 track 3.5" microfloppy drives therefore seem more of a branching > derivative rather than the "predecessor" that the article seems to > allude to. Unless, of course, we're talking of an unrelated format that > just used the same size disks... > > The early Sony Microfloppy is definitely not quite the standard "modern" > 3.5" floppy disk we're aware of today, but is still largely compatible > with modern disks, with slight modification. Namely the drives have no > mechanism of opening the shutters, so i've found the easiest method is > taping the shutters on the disks open with a bit of sellotape. Early Sonys were indeed 70 track, single-sided--and for several versions, 600 RPM. A PC controller that can handle 3.5" HD floppies will also handle the early Sony drives. I'm trying to recall if there was a head-load solenoid in those also. I believe so. There are 40 track derivatives; used for word processing, particularly on some Brother models. No big deal; when reading those, one simply double-steps a "normal" drive. In any case, as far as I recall, they all used Brother's proprietary GCR encoding. I've processed a couple hundred of those. Brother WP drives are a bit unusual in that there's no track 0 sensor. The drive simply bangs the head carriage against a stop and then micro-steps to where it finds track 0 data. This creates a problem when using "normal" 3.5" drives--I keep about 3 around with varying degrees of misalignment to handle those. Now, let's talk about 2.8" and 3.25" drives; UK readers are certainly familiar with 3.0 inch CF drives used on Amstrads. Then there are the oddball cases. Caleb UHD drives and 3M Superdisks... --Chuck --===============6356167110446898276==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sun Sep 10 16:45:17 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:44:59 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4867060795917841543==" --===============4867060795917841543== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 10 Sept 2023 at 16:09, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > UK readers are certainly > familiar with 3.0 inch CF drives used on Amstrads. Oh yes indeed. I think I have, in my basement in Prague, two Amstrad PCW 9512 machines, an original 9512 (1987, one 3" drive) and a 9512+ (1991, one 3.5" drive). Both DS/DD and 720 kB. I believe -- not tried it -- that the 9512+ can read/write DOS floppies. (The second was a kind gift from a list member -- thanks Roger!) I suspect that the 9512+ was the last ever new CP/M machine (excluding 21st century hobbyist kit). They had a volatile ~450kB RAM disk as drive M: and 720x256 mono graphics, with a text resolution of 90*32. As CP/M machines they are pretty nice kit. No slots and not very expandable, but very capable spec. You could load all the nonresident CP/M commands into the M: drive and then it was a capable single-floppy machine which never needed the boot disk again. No idea of the CPU performance. 4MHz Z80A but whether there was any contention or anything I have no idea. I believe one of the interesting bits of the design is that there's no ROM at all. They came with a dedicated printer (as well as a Centronics port) and masked into a corner of the printer controller chip was a tiny bit of bootstrap code. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4867060795917841543==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Sun Sep 10 17:49:46 2023 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 19:49:35 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1627615862004737387==" --===============1627615862004737387== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 05:44:59PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: [...] > No idea of the CPU performance. 4MHz Z80A but whether there was any > contention or anything I have no idea. I believe one of the > interesting bits of the design is that there's no ROM at all. They > came with a dedicated printer (as well as a Centronics port) and > masked into a corner of the printer controller chip was a tiny bit of > bootstrap code. One unusual and interesting thing about the Amstrad PCW is how it uses a display list system, unlike basically any other home computer of the era apart from the Atari 8-bits and the Amiga. This lets it have a nice high-resolution bitmap display and do *partial* scrolling quickly without having to get the CPU to copy the whole screen around. This is obviously useful for a word processor which mostly just inserts and delete lines and makes the thing so much smoother to use. Various of its contemporaries such as the Beeb, CPC or PC video cards used or were inspired by the MC6845 CRTC that can only scroll the entire screen. This is fine for a dumb terminal experience such as the MS-DOS shell, but has to fall back to CPU rendering for partial scrolls. You can see the difference on a Beeb or emulator. Go into MODE 1 and type in any old junk such as "*HELP" to print a wodge of text. Towards the bottom, do "COLOUR 129" to set the text background to red (not strictly necessary, but it makes the changed area bigger and more obvious) and do that "*HELP" or whatever to make it scroll. Watch how the screen scrolls quickly with no tearing. That's using 6845 hardware scrolling. Now repeat this but do VDU 28,1,30,38,1 to set up a text viewport which is one character in from each edge and do the same. Look how it scrolls slowly and tears. That's software rendering making a pig's ear of it because there's just not enough memory bandwidth to copy a screen's worth of memory within a 20ms frame. This hardware scrolling support is more useful to the PCW than the CPU. If it had a 68000 in it, but no display list, it'd be much slower at editing text. Just look at wordprocessors on the original 128k Mac. --===============1627615862004737387==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Sep 10 18:19:55 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 11:19:40 -0700 Message-ID: <72481287-3068-df2d-8308-7c10aa462f97@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4505718199483188990==" --===============4505718199483188990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/10/23 09:44, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > No idea of the CPU performance. 4MHz Z80A but whether there was any > contention or anything I have no idea. I believe one of the > interesting bits of the design is that there's no ROM at all. They > came with a dedicated printer (as well as a Centronics port) and > masked into a corner of the printer controller chip was a tiny bit of > bootstrap code. From my PCW tinkerings--I bought it for the CF drive, so it was mostly a curiosity with me. I think the base unit (120VAC) was sold by Sears in the US for a time. I grabbed one locally and upgraded the RAM to 512K and a 3.5" 720K drive (Teac FD235F)--the READY line is required for operation. I noted that changing a single byte in the boot code enabled support for DS media. But the "no ROM" claim should probably be modified to "no discrete ROM", as I believe the boot code is contained in the printer controller and is strobed onto the Z80 bus at IPL time. Almost certainly mask-programmed. The PCW, although interesting languished in my shop for about a decade. Finally was contacted by someone who was willing to drive up from California and relieve me of it. He also received an AT&T 6300 for his troubles. I am loath to recycle old interesting gear, but am willing to give it away to interested parties. --Chuck --Chuck --===============4505718199483188990==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Sep 10 19:36:23 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 12:36:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3328994791570507390==" --===============3328994791570507390== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> It's odd that he brings up things such as 100tpi drives (VS 96tpi) >> and 3" (but not 3.25" on which Dysan bet the company), the very early 40=20 >> track 3.5", On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > What confused me, is that i believe the 3.5" Sony Microfloppy originally ha= d=20 > 70 tracks. I'm personally completely oblivious to any 40-track 3.5"=20 > microfloppy formats. Yes, my sentence is twisted into knots :-) > I have a pair of Sony OA-D30V drives, which i believe were the first=20 > commercially available 3.5" microfloppy drives, and they have a single head= .=20 > The format the machine that they're linked up to only uses 70 tracks (thoug= h=20 > the drives might be capable of a few more?) for a SSDD format of 315KB. Those were fascinating. 600 RPM and full height > 40 track 3.5" microfloppy drives therefore seem more of a branching=20 > derivative rather than the "predecessor" that the article seems to allude t= o.=20 > Unless, of course, we're talking of an unrelated format that just used the = > same size disks... I agree that They were indeed, probably a derivative, rather than a=20 predecessor. Although I think that it was an early derivative. "Ordinary"=20 3.5" is 135 tpi with 80 tracks. Epson, and very few others, briefly tried=20 67.5 tpi, 40 track. Epson Geneva PX-8, etc. I had a 67.5 tpi drive from=20 another manufacturer, which means that somebody expected it to catch on,=20 or they thought that there would be a market for Epson accessories? > The early Sony Microfloppy is definitely not quite the standard "modern" 3.= 5"=20 > floppy disk we're aware of today, but is still largely compatible with mode= rn=20 > disks, with slight modification. Namely the drives have no mechanism of=20 > opening the shutters, so i've found the easiest method is taping the shutte= rs=20 > on the disks open with a bit of sellotape. The apparently earliest 3.5" diskettes did not have a shutter. I have (or=20 had) a few labelled "Shugart". It is possible that those might have been=20 from a large batch of prototoypes for development, rather than=20 commercially available. Then came manual "pinch" shutters. The user slid the shutter open, and it=20 latched. After removing the disk, the user pinches the corner of the disk=20 and a spring closes the shutter. The spot to pinch on the corner of the=20 disk had a tiny arrow pointing to it, and the word "Pinch". Then came modern automatic shutters. The word "Pinch" is gone, but on=20 many of them, the arrow remained! At Comdex, somebody at one of the disk=20 manufacturers told me, "That arrow is a reminder of which direction to=20 insert the disk." I don't think that he believed me when I told him the=20 origin of the arrow. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3328994791570507390==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Sep 10 19:39:19 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 12:39:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8585364319460375217==" --===============8585364319460375217== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > There are 40 track derivatives; used for word processing, particularly > on some Brother models. No big deal; when reading those, one simply > double-steps a "normal" drive. In any case, as far as I recall, they > all used Brother's proprietary GCR encoding. I've processed a couple > hundred of those. With the exception, the Epson Geneva PX8 40 track 3.5" was MFM -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8585364319460375217==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Sep 10 19:52:57 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 12:52:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4908648422270082220==" --===============4908648422270082220== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/10/23 12:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> There are 40 track derivatives; used for word processing, particularly >> on some Brother models.  No big deal; when reading those, one simply >> double-steps a "normal" drive.  In any case, as far as I recall, they >> all used Brother's proprietary GCR encoding.  I've processed a couple >> hundred of those. > > With the exception, the Epson Geneva PX8 40 track 3.5" was MFM Got some of those in my rogue's gallery too. The thing that seems to be lost on many is that legacy (i.e. Shugart-interface) floppy drives are very dumb devices. Pretty much don't care what you put on them, so long as it satisfies the bandpass requirements. --Chuck --===============4908648422270082220==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Sep 10 20:00:17 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 13:00:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5310682378276684435==" --===============5310682378276684435== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Now, let's talk about 2.8" and 3.25" drives; UK readers are certainly > familiar with 3.0 inch CF drives used on Amstrads. Amdek? sold a dual 3" drive in USA, marketed as external drives. There were ads for it in one or more of the Coco magazines. And there were ads for it as external drives for Apple2! Q: were those different electronics? OR did they include an FDC for Apple2? 3.25: The three leading contenders for "Shirt pocket disks" were 3", 3.25", and 3.5". There were many others, such as a 3.9" that IBM was rumored to be planning. But, for shirt pocket puspose, 3" seems the most promising. There was extensive argument in the trade journals. George Morrow said, "Why don't we get the clothing industry to make shirt pockets 5.25 inch?" Dysan did not want such an extreme retooling, so they were pushing the 3.25", which was basicaally a smaller 5.25", with a metal hub. They reasoned that whichever size had the most software would end up being the winner. So, Dysan set up an enormous software publishing venture. Before there were any machines using 3.25", you could purchase most of the major software packages on 3.25" disks! I ended up with a few drives and disks from Micropro. But, then HP and Apple both went with 3.5". When IBM went with 3.5" (PS/2, PC-DOS 3.20), the coffin was nailed shut. Seequa Chameleon 325 seems to have been the only machine that made it to market with 3.25" drives. Dysan had invested so much into their software publishing venture to promote 3.25" that, when 3.25" died, they couldn't ever recover. R.I.P. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5310682378276684435==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Sep 10 20:17:08 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 13:16:54 -0700 Message-ID: <428b8fa8-5227-d747-56a4-5b0aae6f6fe3@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1343978747444173677==" --===============1343978747444173677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/10/23 13:00, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Now, let's talk about 2.8" and 3.25" drives; UK readers are certainly >> familiar with 3.0 inch CF drives used on Amstrads. > > Amdek? sold a dual 3" drive in USA, marketed as external drives. > There were ads for it in one or more of the Coco magazines. > > And there were ads for it as external drives for Apple2! > Q: were those different electronics?  OR did they include an FDC for > Apple2? Can't say, but probably. I've got an 8" disk here written by an Apple II. Encoding is weird--basically the Apple RWTS encoded as 8 bit FM (3740) bytes. Haven't bothered to see from whence it came. --Chuck --===============1343978747444173677==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Sep 10 20:31:35 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 13:31:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <428b8fa8-5227-d747-56a4-5b0aae6f6fe3@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7679949914766924638==" --===============7679949914766924638== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Can't say, but probably. I've got an 8" disk here written by an Apple > II. Encoding is weird--basically the Apple RWTS encoded as 8 bit FM > (3740) bytes. Haven't bothered to see from whence it came. Sorrento Valley Associates sold an FDC for Apple2. At Comdex, they had it wired to an 8" drive. So, perhaps they supported an FM version of the Apple2 GCR format? --===============7679949914766924638==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Sep 10 21:24:44 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 14:24:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6085681196230915472==" --===============6085681196230915472== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/10/23 13:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Can't say, but probably.  I've got an 8" disk here written by an Apple >> II.  Encoding is weird--basically the Apple RWTS encoded as 8 bit FM >> (3740) bytes. Haven't bothered to see from whence it came. > > Sorrento Valley Associates sold an FDC for Apple2.  At Comdex, they had > it wired to an 8" drive.  So, perhaps they supported an FM version of > the Apple2 GCR format? Have no idea, but was surprise to see RWTS encodings in standard FM. --Chuck --===============6085681196230915472==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Sep 10 21:27:54 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 14:27:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4715377306974360930==" --===============4715377306974360930== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 2:24 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 9/10/23 13:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Can't say, but probably. I've got an 8" disk here written by an Apple > >> II. Encoding is weird--basically the Apple RWTS encoded as 8 bit FM > >> (3740) bytes. Haven't bothered to see from whence it came. > > > > Sorrento Valley Associates sold an FDC for Apple2. At Comdex, they had > > it wired to an 8" drive. So, perhaps they supported an FM version of > > the Apple2 GCR format? > > Have no idea, but was surprise to see RWTS encodings in standard FM. > > --Chuck > No, that controller (I'm suspecting) allowed native Apple ][ access to IBM 3740 format disks. Sellam --===============4715377306974360930==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Sep 10 21:40:54 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 14:40:49 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9103331462089238481==" --===============9103331462089238481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> Can't say, but probably.  I've got an 8" disk here written by an Apple >>> II.  Encoding is weird--basically the Apple RWTS encoded as 8 bit FM >>> (3740) bytes. Haven't bothered to see from whence it came. >> Sorrento Valley Associates sold an FDC for Apple2.  At Comdex, they had >> it wired to an 8" drive.  So, perhaps they supported an FM version of >> the Apple2 GCR format? On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Have no idea, but was surprise to see RWTS encodings in standard FM. Some people like to play gaames with PC; but what could top THAT? --===============9103331462089238481==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Sep 10 22:07:25 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 15:07:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4086176437883777031==" --===============4086176437883777031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>> Can't say, but probably. I've got an 8" disk here written by an Apple >>>> II. Encoding is weird--basically the Apple RWTS encoded as 8 bit FM >>>> (3740) bytes. Haven't bothered to see from whence it came. >> On 9/10/23 13:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Sorrento Valley Associates sold an FDC for Apple2. At Comdex, they had >>> it wired to an 8" drive. So, perhaps they supported an FM version of >>> the Apple2 GCR format? > On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 2:24 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> Have no idea, but was surprise to see RWTS encodings in standard FM. On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > No, that controller (I'm suspecting) allowed native Apple ][ access to IBM > 3740 format disks. I have no idea about the format(s) supported with that board. Possibly FM (for 8"SSSD, which is what the Flagstaff Engineering modified 5150 FDC was for) Possibly MFM (for 5150 disks, but could also, with appropriate additional software handle thousands of others) Could it have also had support for pseudo Apple-DOS (and Apple CP/M, P-System, ProDOS), so that machines with that controller, but without also Apple drives, could run Apple software/programs, once copied to an FM pseudo AppleDOS format? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4086176437883777031==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sun Sep 10 22:12:37 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:12:32 -0500 Message-ID: <1908998345.1988699.1694383952404@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6141297919378445131==" --===============6141297919378445131== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 09/10/2023 3:00 PM CDT Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: >=20 >=20 > On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Now, let's talk about 2.8" and 3.25" drives; UK readers are certainly > > familiar with 3.0 inch CF drives used on Amstrads. > Amdek? sold a dual 3" drive in USA, marketed as external drives. > There were ads for it in one or more of the Coco magazines. >=20 > And there were ads for it as external drives for Apple2! > Q: were those different electronics? OR did they include an FDC for > Apple2? >=20 >=20 > 3.25: > The three leading contenders for "Shirt pocket disks" were 3", 3.25", and > 3.5". There were many others, such as a 3.9" that IBM was rumored to be > planning. > But, for shirt pocket puspose, 3" seems the most promising. > There was extensive argument in the trade journals. > George Morrow said, "Why don't we get the clothing industry to make > shirt pockets 5.25 inch?" >=20 > Dysan did not want such an extreme retooling, so they were pushing the > 3.25", which was basicaally a smaller 5.25", with a metal hub. They > reasoned that whichever size had the most software would end up being the > winner. So, Dysan set up an enormous software publishing venture. Before > there were any machines using 3.25", you could purchase most of the major > software packages on 3.25" disks! I ended up with a few drives and disks > from Micropro. >=20 > But, then HP and Apple both went with 3.5". > When IBM went with 3.5" (PS/2, PC-DOS 3.20), the coffin was nailed shut. > Seequa Chameleon 325 seems to have been the only machine that made it to > market with 3.25" drives. >=20 > Dysan had invested so much into their software publishing venture to > promote 3.25" that, when 3.25" died, they couldn't ever recover. R.I.P. >=20 >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com I make an official motion that Fred write his own "Everything I Know About Fl= oppy Disks" page / book /encyclopedia. =20 I suspect that what is inside his head is the greatest collection of knowledg= e about floppies on the planet. Fred, you will be paid with great admiration and appreciation. Sorry, all I = can offer. :-) Anyone with me? Will If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't a= ssign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless imme= nsity of the sea. Antoine de Saint-Exupery --===============6141297919378445131==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Sep 10 22:24:36 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 15:24:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1908998345.1988699.1694383952404@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3914455328226896658==" --===============3914455328226896658== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > I make an official motion that Fred write his own "Everything I Know > About Floppy Disks" page / book /encyclopedia. > I suspect that what is inside his head is the greatest collection of > knowledge about floppies on the planet. >> Fred, you will be paid with great admiration and appreciation. Sorry, > all I can offer. :-) > Anyone with me? 1) Chuck Guzis knows FAR more than I do about floppy disks. Tony Duell (ARD) knows FAR more than I do about disk drives. 2) It is now so far out of date that, Who would want it? (besides a few here) 3) I've already said most of it; just a matter of gathering it. I started writing a book on it 30 years ago; never finished. Now I'm writing an undergraduate textbook on Information Science, which I will also never finish. I find it easier to edit, critique, and contribute to somebody else's than to build from scratch. Some pieces have finally found places in other people's works. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3914455328226896658==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Sep 10 22:28:22 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF MW 2023 recap (Fri/Sat only) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:28:05 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3797952000130356974==" --===============3797952000130356974== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got the chance to attend another great VCF! This time in Chicago over this past weekend. Most images should be able to click and enlarge (if not, wiggle the page a bit and try again). https://voidstar.blog/vcf-mw-midwest-2023/ --===============3797952000130356974==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Sun Sep 10 22:47:01 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Teletype Exhibit at VCFMW Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:46:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7072468970037271406==" --===============7072468970037271406== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://youtu.be/W6mJB9ovES4 I had two model 14s set up, details in the video description :) --===============7072468970037271406==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Sep 11 01:44:42 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 18:44:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1908998345.1988699.1694383952404@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5008422892258849173==" --===============5008422892258849173== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 3:12=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > I make an official motion that Fred write his own "Everything I Know About > Floppy Disks" page / book /encyclopedia. > > I suspect that what is inside his head is the greatest collection of > knowledge about floppies on the planet. > > Fred, you will be paid with great admiration and appreciation. Sorry, all > I can offer. :-) > > Anyone with me? > > Will > > > If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and > don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the > endless immensity of the sea. > We must teach Fred to long for the endless immensity of the written word (in book form, focusing specifically on floppy disk drives). Sellam --===============5008422892258849173==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Mon Sep 11 01:54:15 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 19:53:57 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1908998345.1988699.1694383952404@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8085287528404489155==" --===============8085287528404489155== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Sep 10, 2023, 4:12 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 09/10/2023 3:00 PM CDT Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > Now, let's talk about 2.8" and 3.25" drives; UK readers are certainly > > > familiar with 3.0 inch CF drives used on Amstrads. > > Amdek? sold a dual 3" drive in USA, marketed as external drives. > > There were ads for it in one or more of the Coco magazines. > > > > And there were ads for it as external drives for Apple2! > > Q: were those different electronics? OR did they include an FDC for > > Apple2? > > > > > > 3.25: > > The three leading contenders for "Shirt pocket disks" were 3", 3.25", and > > 3.5". There were many others, such as a 3.9" that IBM was rumored to be > > planning. > > But, for shirt pocket puspose, 3" seems the most promising. > > There was extensive argument in the trade journals. > > George Morrow said, "Why don't we get the clothing industry to make > > shirt pockets 5.25 inch?" > > > > Dysan did not want such an extreme retooling, so they were pushing the > > 3.25", which was basicaally a smaller 5.25", with a metal hub. They > > reasoned that whichever size had the most software would end up being the > > winner. So, Dysan set up an enormous software publishing venture. Before > > there were any machines using 3.25", you could purchase most of the major > > software packages on 3.25" disks! I ended up with a few drives and disks > > from Micropro. > > > > But, then HP and Apple both went with 3.5". > > When IBM went with 3.5" (PS/2, PC-DOS 3.20), the coffin was nailed shut. > > Seequa Chameleon 325 seems to have been the only machine that made it to > > market with 3.25" drives. > > > > Dysan had invested so much into their software publishing venture to > > promote 3.25" that, when 3.25" died, they couldn't ever recover. R.I.P. > > > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > > I make an official motion that Fred write his own "Everything I Know About > Floppy Disks" page / book /encyclopedia. > > I suspect that what is inside his head is the greatest collection of > knowledge about floppies on the planet. > > Fred, you will be paid with great admiration and appreciation. Sorry, all > I can offer. :-) > > Anyone with me? > I am. I thought I was hot shit with what I knew about floppies. And for the tiny sliver I needed for my Rainbow hacking, I kinda sorta knew enough. This thread and all the others shows I know next to nothing. Warner > Will > > > If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and > don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the > endless immensity of the sea. > > Antoine de Saint-Exupery > --===============8085287528404489155==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Sep 11 02:24:29 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 19:24:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5736188488109725754==" --===============5736188488109725754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and >> don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the >> endless immensity of the sea. On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > We must teach Fred to long for the endless immensity of the written word > (in book form, focusing specifically on floppy disk drives). 45 years ago, I started writing about repairing Honda cars. Wasn't getting f= ar=20 until an acquaintance who fancied himself to be a writer got me to agree to d= o=20 a book with him. He sold the idea to John Muir Publications (publisher of th= e=20 Volkswagen Idiot book, different John Muir). I wrote it, my co-author edited= ,=20 the publisher put their own editor on it, who butchered it. But, the publish= er=20 also brought in Peter Aschwanden, who is a GREAT automotive illustrator (see = the VW idiot book). In 1979, I switched to TRS80, and did it with Electric=20 Pencil, and then Scripsit. I had a DTC300 Hytype-I daisy wheel printer. I=20 printed it 8.5" wide down the middle of 14 7/8 paper, giving lots of room for= =20 comments, etc. For the illustrator, I printed it on the left side of the wid= e=20 paper, leaving a large area for doodles. The publisher's editor butchered it= =20 badly enough that my co-author switched to a pseudonym. With the publisher's= =20 accounting, never got enough in royalties to fuuly pay all of my expenses. https://www.amazon.com/How-Keep-Your-Honda-Alive/dp/0912528257 In the 1990s, I started writing about floppy disks, how FM/MFM worked, IBM/WD= =20 track and sector structure, directory structures, DOS Utilities, disk repair,= =20 etc. But, got bogged down with too much to do, such as closing my office, etc., . = .=20 . 20 years ago, I started writing an undergraduate textbook on Information=20 Science. How searches and search engines work, and how to search better, how= =20 companies cheat the search engines (SEO), relevance ranking, trade-offs betwe= en=20 recall and precision (cf. Buckland), the DIK[W[E]]=20 (Data/Information/Knowledge/[Wisdom/[Enlightenment]]) pyramid, etc. I wanted= =20 to make a community college class out of it. But, certain administrators (who= I=20 failed to ever defenestrate) refused to consider understanding of information= =20 to be appropriate for community college (anything beyond their total lack of = comprehension was "inappropriate") (Do YOU consider it "computer literate" to create a memo about a room change = for a meeting in WordPerfect, print it with a color printer (for the logo and= a=20 ruling line), SCAN that printed memo, and send it out as an ATTACHMENT to an = email with subject line of "FYI" and text body of "See the attachment"?) I haven't made progress on it lately. So, yes, I have always longed for the endless immensity of the written word, = .=20 . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5736188488109725754==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Sep 11 03:43:19 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 20:43:15 -0700 Message-ID: <006301d9e462$19bee890$4d3cb9b0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6219693035613468765==" --===============6219693035613468765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In the 1990s, I started writing about floppy disks, how FM/MFM worked, > IBM/WD > track and sector structure, directory structures, DOS Utilities, disk > repair, > etc. > But, got bogged down with too much to do, such as closing my office, > etc., . . > . Now this would be an interesting book to read depending on the technical background required to understand it. i.e. could a layman such as I understand it or do I need to be an EE w/ CS background? ;) -Ali --===============6219693035613468765==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Sep 11 04:00:50 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 21:00:45 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <006301d9e462$19bee890$4d3cb9b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2135288215044525285==" --===============2135288215044525285== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> In the 1990s, I started writing about floppy disks, how FM/MFM worked, >> IBM/WD track and sector structure, directory structures, DOS Utilities, >> disk repair, etc. But, got bogged down with too much to do, such as >> closing my office, etc., . . . On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Ali wrote: > Now this would be an interesting book to read depending on the technical > background required to understand it. i.e. could a layman such as I > understand it or do I need to be an EE w/ CS background? ;) I was trying to write it at our level. Like what I write here. For interested hobbyist with a reasonable background, but without formal engineering and electronics background, and trying not to offend those who do have extensive background. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2135288215044525285==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Sep 11 08:12:06 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 09:11:49 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1908998345.1988699.1694383952404@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5801606582496790180==" --===============5801606582496790180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 10 Sept 2023 at 23:12, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > I make an official motion that Fred write his own "Everything I Know About = Floppy Disks" page / book /encyclopedia. > > I suspect that what is inside his head is the greatest collection of knowle= dge about floppies on the planet. > > Fred, you will be paid with great admiration and appreciation. Sorry, all = I can offer. :-) > > Anyone with me? I second that motion. I defer to Fred's deference to others, but that notwithstanding, Mr Grumpy here has a knack for communicating with wit and flair. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5801606582496790180==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Sep 11 08:14:33 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 09:14:17 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4422629431560226865==" --===============4422629431560226865== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 10 Sept 2023 at 18:49, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > One unusual and interesting thing about the Amstrad PCW is how it uses a > display list system, unlike basically any other home computer of the era > apart from the Atari 8-bits and the Amiga. Fascinating... thanks for that. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4422629431560226865==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Mon Sep 11 08:56:42 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD? Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 04:49:26 -0400 Message-ID: <8fccbfe3-a659-f453-9505-8ab8f5286cde@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2818828978073988518==" --===============2818828978073988518== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-09-08 20:08, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I use a STM32F4 MCU for my floppy work (and my tape work also). Half a > meg of program flash and 192KB of SRAM on-chip, running at 168MHz. But > my interface is strictly by image file. The USB connection is strictly > for file transfer and terminal operation. One does a whole disk at a > time, since the bulk storage interface is SD Card. Currently, I'm > limited to 32GB there. You have this somewhere on GIT? --===============2818828978073988518==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Mon Sep 11 09:03:08 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 10:02:52 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4775878431604911061==" --===============4775878431604911061== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any proprietary interface or message database is anathema to honest communication. And even if they currently have benevolent commercial policies there's always the possibility of another twitter-style regression. Moguls love communication platforms and always have, from Randall Hearst onwards, because they provide the means to control the conversation and resulting attitudes. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 7:14=E2=80=AFPM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 17:25, Seth Morabito via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I swear to God, Discord will be the end of the open Internet, it's where > information goes to die. I hate it with every fiber of my being. And yes, I > use it, I'm on many servers. I'm still allowed to detest it. > > 100% agreement from this end. > > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > --===============4775878431604911061==-- From ethan@757.org Mon Sep 11 16:16:39 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Anyone in Sheffield uk? Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:16:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6017345609679426792==" --===============6017345609679426792== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone in Sheffield UK? There is an Acorn Archemedies computer I am interested in buying but the guy is collection only. I am in the USA, but interested in buying and repairing the system. - Ethan --===============6017345609679426792==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Sep 11 16:43:47 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:43:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4260364033850529948==" --===============4260364033850529948== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 10, 2023, at 6:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> I make an official motion that Fred write his own "Everything I Know About= Floppy Disks" page / book /encyclopedia. >> I suspect that what is inside his head is the greatest collection of knowl= edge about floppies on the planet. >>> Fred, you will be paid with great admiration and appreciation. Sorry,=20 >> all I can offer. :-) >> Anyone with me? >=20 > 1) Chuck Guzis knows FAR more than I do about floppy disks. > Tony Duell (ARD) knows FAR more than I do about disk drives. >=20 > 2) It is now so far out of date that, Who would want it? (besides a few he= re) Anyone who wants to resuscitate either old drives, or recover data from old d= isks. There is a lot of such data... Also, history is important. Not always in obvious ways, but if it's lost it = tends to be very hard to recover. One of my favorite examples of old history= is the Ph.D. thesis of Gauthier van den Hove (U. Amsterdam, a few years ago)= analyzing in extreme detail the world's first ALGOL-60 compiler, by Dijkstra= and Zonneveld. Why bother? Well, for one, because it wasn't just the first= compiler but the place where a whole bunch of later-standard techniques were= first invented, and understanding the origin of things and what problems the= y solve and why they do it that way can be surprisingly important. paul --===============4260364033850529948==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Mon Sep 11 17:15:10 2023 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone in Sheffield uk? Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 17:14:57 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4856123449326354250==" --===============4856123449326354250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m in Barnsley which is close to Sheffield. Where in Sheffield is it= as I possibly go pick it up really soon if you want.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On 11 Sep 2023, at 17:16, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAnyone in Sheffield UK? There is an Acorn Archemedies computer I a= m interested in buying but the guy is collection only. I am in the USA, but i= nterested in buying and repairing the system. >=20 > - Ethan >=20 >=20 --===============4856123449326354250==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 11 17:18:12 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 11:18:04 -0600 Message-ID: <06c586a2-2fe7-6bcb-d938-55d399a1bf45@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1717258586867231009==" --===============1717258586867231009== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-09-11 10:43 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 10, 2023, at 6:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >>> I make an official motion that Fred write his own "Everything I Know Abou= t Floppy Disks" page / book /encyclopedia. >>> I suspect that what is inside his head is the greatest collection of know= ledge about floppies on the planet. >>>> Fred, you will be paid with great admiration and appreciation. Sorry, >>> all I can offer. :-) >>> Anyone with me? >> >> 1) Chuck Guzis knows FAR more than I do about floppy disks. >> Tony Duell (ARD) knows FAR more than I do about disk drives. >> >> 2) It is now so far out of date that, Who would want it? (besides a few h= ere) >=20 > Anyone who wants to resuscitate either old drives, or recover data from old= disks. There is a lot of such data... >=20 > Also, history is important. Not always in obvious ways, but if it's lost i= t tends to be very hard to recover. One of my favorite examples of old histo= ry is the Ph.D. thesis of Gauthier van den Hove (U. Amsterdam, a few years ag= o) analyzing in extreme detail the world's first ALGOL-60 compiler, by Dijkst= ra and Zonneveld. Why bother? Well, for one, because it wasn't just the fir= st compiler but the place where a whole bunch of later-standard techniques we= re first invented, and understanding the origin of things and what problems t= hey solve and why they do it that way can be surprisingly important. >=20 > paul >=20 Did Algol in general have memory leaks?,or is just C and Windows. --===============1717258586867231009==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Mon Sep 11 17:55:49 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:55:45 -0500 Message-ID: <927696506.2166172.1694454945807@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <06c586a2-2fe7-6bcb-d938-55d399a1bf45@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7152256363141434364==" --===============7152256363141434364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 09/11/2023 12:18 PM CDT ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Did Algol in general have memory leaks?,or is just C and Windows. Not sure about the language, but at this point most of its programmers have m= emory leaks. Will If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't a= ssign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless imme= nsity of the sea. Antoine de Saint-Exupery --===============7152256363141434364==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Mon Sep 11 18:09:49 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 18:09:31 +0000 Message-ID: <0353ed2689b04d009f1631d9a023704f@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <06c586a2-2fe7-6bcb-d938-55d399a1bf45@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2909652394607949358==" --===============2909652394607949358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Did Algol in general have memory leaks?,or is just C and Windows. This is very much from recollection of programming in Algol 60 & 68, 40+ year= s ago. Algol60 did not have heap storage or pointers IIRC Therefore no potential fo= r memory leaks Algol68R had fairly agressive garbage collection, which generally precluded m= emory leaks, in a language with dynamic arrays, ref ref ref pointers, etc. Also, the small memory model of initially 32 kiW address space - which is all= I can recollect ever using on an unpaged time sharing machine ICL 1904S with= (IIRC) 256 kiWd of physical memory - leads to a rather more static programmi= ng style. The grandchild of the Algols and this style of programming is perhaps subset = Ada=20 A wag might observe that programmers may have memory leaks, that teams genera= te memory leaks, and that organisations lack corporate memory. Martin --===============2909652394607949358==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Sep 11 20:53:23 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks" Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 16:53:15 -0400 Message-ID: <225C9E12-03A6-4FED-A4E7-DD0F08C8037D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <0353ed2689b04d009f1631d9a023704f@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5997278534609441158==" --===============5997278534609441158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 11, 2023, at 2:09 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> Did Algol in general have memory leaks?,or is just C and Windows. >=20 > This is very much from recollection of programming in Algol 60 & 68, 40+ ye= ars ago. >=20 > Algol60 did not have heap storage or pointers IIRC Therefore no potential = for memory leaks Correct. > Algol68R had fairly agressive garbage collection, which generally precluded= memory leaks, in a language with dynamic arrays, ref ref ref pointers, etc. I don't know the 68R subset specifically. ALGOL 68 certainly has pointers, a= nd heap storage, where objects remain in existence so long as something refer= s to them. That's similar to the model of BASIC strings, or Python objects. = Garbage collection or reference counting arethe usual way to deal with unref= erenced objects, though things get tricky when circular references are possib= le. > Also, the small memory model of initially 32 kiW address space - which is a= ll I can recollect ever using on an unpaged time sharing machine ICL 1904S wi= th (IIRC) 256 kiWd of physical memory - leads to a rather more static program= ming style. >=20 > The grandchild of the Algols and this style of programming is perhaps subse= t Ada=20 >=20 > A wag might observe that programmers may have memory leaks, that teams gene= rate memory leaks, and that organisations lack corporate memory. :-) The reason C and C++ have memory leaks is that they are low level languages w= here there is no linkage between the lifetime of objects and the existence of= references to them, nor in fact a way for the implementation to know whether= there are references. By constrast, in strongly typed languages like ALGOL-= 68 or Pascal or Ada, and even in languages like Python, that question does ha= ve a clear answer so memory management can be done by the implementation rath= er than left to the tender mercies of the programmer. paul --===============5997278534609441158==-- From silvercreekvalley@yahoo.com Tue Sep 12 07:18:59 2023 From: Ian F To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for an original Sun PS2 ->Sun keyboard adapter 370-2068 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 07:18:56 +0000 Message-ID: <169450313624.4006402.17023014883789174155@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0250425677464307318==" --===============0250425677464307318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Looking for an original Sun 370-2068, which is a PS2 to Sun keyboard adapter.= If anyone has one please DM me, happy to pay a reasonable price & internatio= nal shipping if needed. Thanks! --===============0250425677464307318==-- From plamenspam@afterpeople.com Tue Sep 12 07:26:33 2023 From: Plamen Mihaylov To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for an original Sun PS2 ->Sun keyboard adapter 370-2068 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 10:26:16 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169450313624.4006402.17023014883789174155@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4990814868006763754==" --===============4990814868006763754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is one listed on ebay right now - itm 295819078074 On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 10:19 AM Ian F via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > Looking for an original Sun 370-2068, which is a PS2 to Sun keyboard > adapter. If anyone has one please DM me, happy to pay a reasonable price & > international shipping if needed. > > Thanks! > --===============4990814868006763754==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Sep 12 12:22:19 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for an original Sun PS2 ->Sun keyboard adapter 370-2068 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 08:22:01 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2450296133919379424==" --===============2450296133919379424== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps dumb question but would a Wombat keyboard adapter work or is this a keyboard adapter with a box adapter, more than one wire? On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, 3:26 AM Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > There is one listed on ebay right now - itm 295819078074 > > On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 10:19=E2=80=AFAM Ian F via cctalk > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Looking for an original Sun 370-2068, which is a PS2 to Sun keyboard > > adapter. If anyone has one please DM me, happy to pay a reasonable price > & > > international shipping if needed. > > > > Thanks! > > > --===============2450296133919379424==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Sep 12 14:11:52 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Comparing PDP-8 processor flipchip Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 10:11:35 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4829040932024583232==" --===============4829040932024583232== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The recent Ebay auction for the original PDP-8 got my attention because one of the photos (the processor logic flipchip array) is a nice snapshot for comparison purposes with the system I am working on. https://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp-8/PDP-8_flip-chips_left.png (mine) https://vintagecomputer.net/temp/EBAYPDP-8ProcessorFlipchips.jpg Given my PDP-8 is close to working, I would assume that the Ebay PDP-8 would have a fighting chance, at least as far as the flip chip configuration goes. This is also a nice confirmation that I more or less have the flipchips in the right places. There are only a few slight differences. Bill --===============4829040932024583232==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Tue Sep 12 15:29:36 2023 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Comparing PDP-8 processor flipchip Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 11:29:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3477651274892026390==" --===============3477651274892026390== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have seen lots of small differences between machines with no real explanati= on of why. > On Sep 12, 2023, at 10:11 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The recent Ebay auction for the original PDP-8 got my attention because one > of the photos (the processor logic flipchip array) is a nice snapshot for > comparison purposes with the system I am working on. >=20 > https://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp-8/PDP-8_flip-chips_left.png (mine) > https://vintagecomputer.net/temp/EBAYPDP-8ProcessorFlipchips.jpg >=20 > Given my PDP-8 is close to working, I would assume that the Ebay PDP-8 > would have a fighting chance, at least as far as the flip chip > configuration goes. This is also a nice confirmation that I more or less > have the flipchips in the right places. There are only a few slight > differences. >=20 > Bill --===============3477651274892026390==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Sep 12 15:31:34 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Comparing PDP-8 processor flipchip Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 11:31:16 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7019402788237954780==" --===============7019402788237954780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The biggest worry I have regarding the ebay auction are the three missing core memory case screws. Implies a non-DEC repair/inspection attempted. Bill On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, 11:29 AM Michael Thompson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have seen lots of small differences between machines with no real > explanation of why. > > > On Sep 12, 2023, at 10:11 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > The recent Ebay auction for the original PDP-8 got my attention because > one > > of the photos (the processor logic flipchip array) is a nice snapshot for > > comparison purposes with the system I am working on. > > > > https://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp-8/PDP-8_flip-chips_left.png > (mine) > > https://vintagecomputer.net/temp/EBAYPDP-8ProcessorFlipchips.jpg > > > > Given my PDP-8 is close to working, I would assume that the Ebay PDP-8 > > would have a fighting chance, at least as far as the flip chip > > configuration goes. This is also a nice confirmation that I more or less > > have the flipchips in the right places. There are only a few slight > > differences. > > > > Bill > --===============7019402788237954780==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Sep 12 17:25:18 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Comparing PDP-8 processor flipchip Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 10:25:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4343954738029735479==" --===============4343954738029735479== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 8:31 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The biggest worry I have regarding the ebay auction are the three missing > core memory case screws. Implies a non-DEC repair/inspection attempted. > > Bill > Did you ask the seller about it? Sellam --===============4343954738029735479==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Sep 12 18:52:06 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Comparing PDP-8 processor flipchip Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 14:51:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3420522021520267596==" --===============3420522021520267596== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I should have said, my worry - if I was to buy or bid - is that the screws are removed from the core memory cover. I am not remotely planning to bid, too pricey IMHO Bill On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, 1:25 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 8:31 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The biggest worry I have regarding the ebay auction are the three missing > > core memory case screws. Implies a non-DEC repair/inspection attempted. > > > > Bill > > > > Did you ask the seller about it? > > Sellam > --===============3420522021520267596==-- From silvercreekvalley@yahoo.com Tue Sep 12 19:54:26 2023 From: silcreval To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for an original Sun PS2 ->Sun keyboard adapter 370-2068 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:54:16 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6956813877141021212==" --===============6956813877141021212== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks - I did spot that - just hoping to get a slightly better price if I ca= n :-) --===============6956813877141021212==-- From silvercreekvalley@yahoo.com Tue Sep 12 19:54:47 2023 From: silcreval To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for an original Sun PS2 ->Sun keyboard adapter 370-2068 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:54:37 +0100 Message-ID: <5847A33A-8EB6-4023-986F-5EB15C4C37F1@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5847A33A-8EB6-4023-986F-5EB15C4C37F1.ref@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2640176587700349143==" --===============2640176587700349143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've not heard of the Wombat adapter - was that Sun related? --===============2640176587700349143==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Sep 12 20:25:08 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for an original Sun PS2 ->Sun keyboard adapter 370-2068 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 16:24:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5847A33A-8EB6-4023-986F-5EB15C4C37F1@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8852903526047913529==" --===============8852903526047913529== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's more of a Mac /Next thing. It's a keyboard or mouse adapter Prob dies not apply. Bill On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, 3:54 PM silcreval via cctalk wrote: > I've not heard of the Wombat adapter - was that Sun related? > --===============8852903526047913529==-- From kevin.bowling@kev009.com Tue Sep 12 23:32:50 2023 From: Kevin Bowling To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB: IBM 9221 ESCON card Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 16:32:33 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3881777697379598999==" --===============3881777697379598999== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am looking for a CH3s QH50, P/N 63F3825 for a 9221 ES/9000. A CH1s would also do. Anyone have an ES/9000 that is a brick because no processor console that can help me out? Regards, Kevin --===============3881777697379598999==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Sep 14 19:19:40 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] OT: Anyone near Glasnevin (Dublin), Ireland (to pick-up an item)? Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:19:22 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6539106933263661547==" --===============6539106933263661547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm looking for someone near Glasnevin near Dublin, Ireland who would be willing to pick up an item for me and ship it to me State-side. Seller will not ship. Thank you in advance. Sellam --===============6539106933263661547==-- From markarmbrennan@gmail.com Thu Sep 14 19:53:31 2023 From: Mark Brennan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Anyone near Glasnevin (Dublin), Ireland (to pick-up an item)? Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 20:53:13 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7504131872660670659==" --===============7504131872660670659== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Sellam What are you shipping I might be able to help, DM me Regards Mark On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 8:19 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm looking for someone near Glasnevin near Dublin, Ireland who would be > willing to pick up an item for me and ship it to me State-side. Seller > will not ship. > > Thank you in advance. > > Sellam > --===============7504131872660670659==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Thu Sep 14 19:54:32 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Anyone near Glasnevin (Dublin), Ireland (to pick-up an item)? Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 20:48:20 +0100 Message-ID: <01SW51F2AS9K8WZ1XX@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5624532209512489171==" --===============5624532209512489171== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Sellam, It's on the other side of the city from me but I'm probably the nearest you are likely to come across. Send me an email and we can discuss it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > I'm looking for someone near Glasnevin near Dublin, Ireland who would be > willing to pick up an item for me and ship it to me State-side. Seller > will not ship. > > Thank you in advance. > > Sellam --===============5624532209512489171==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Sep 15 23:45:22 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTD: transputer multi-cpu isa card Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2023 16:45:05 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0084312772762842377==" --===============0084312772762842377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to get an ISA based transputer card. Something with multiple cpus (so not the B004). A B008 or one of the clones that accepts multiple TRAM modules would be ideal (https://www.geekdot.com/inmos-b008) It doesn't have to be TRAM. I saw this multi-cpu board on ebay.ie but a) it's more than I was hoping to spend b) I can't find any info on it. Whatever I get I want there to be reasonable docs and archived software: https://www.ebay.ie/itm/234283597489 Suggestions on what to look for welcomed. I'm in no rush and good things come to those who wait. I'm in the USA but have family in the UK and go there often so I'm looking on ebay.co.uk Thanks! --===============0084312772762842377==-- From davida@pobox.com Sat Sep 16 01:48:38 2023 From: David Arnold To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTD: transputer multi-cpu isa card Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 11:48:13 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5270614159012811704==" --===============5270614159012811704== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 16 Sep 2023, at 09:45, Tony Jones via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI'd like to get an ISA based transputer card. Something with mul= tiple > cpus <=E2=80=A6> > Suggestions on what to look for welcomed. Transtech also made a B008-compatible TRAM motherboard: the TMB08 iirc? d --===============5270614159012811704==-- From tshoppa@wmata.com Sat Sep 16 15:52:42 2023 From: "Shoppa, Tim" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 15:52:33 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0895197761313618773==" --===============0895197761313618773== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask: Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's in-cab= in display? Examples: https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and F= eet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others show= it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet the d= isplay looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also popular = for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" but I'm = not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with no visibl= e segmentation? I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popular= control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't ru= le out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there d= oesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I might = expect with either of those technologies. The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at the = left and right edges which might be a clue? Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and 7-segment g= reen LED display. Don't need help with that one =F0=9F=99=82. Tim N3QE --===============0895197761313618773==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Sat Sep 16 16:25:55 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 09:25:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB48095F5B88696937394D1C75BAF5A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?4809=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8072598652572059667==" --===============8072598652572059667== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-Sep-16, at 8:52 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask: >=20 > Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's in-c= abin display? >=20 > Examples: > https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg > https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg >=20 > The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and= Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others sh= ow it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet the= display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also popula= r for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" but I'= m not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with no visi= ble segmentation? >=20 > I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popul= ar control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't = rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there= doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I migh= t expect with either of those technologies. >=20 > The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at th= e left and right edges which might be a clue? >=20 > Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and 7-segment= green LED display. Don't need help with that one =F0=9F=99=82. It sure looks like back-projection. Rather than individual digits, perhaps it= was a single scroll for each of the items. E.g. the altitude display may hav= e been only 1000-ft resolution, the temperature display only 5-degree resolut= ion, etc., reducing the count of values to be presented to something manageab= le. Even then though, I can't say I've seen an off-the-shelf type that would = fit, even with custom films. But being Concorde, a full-custom design is quit= e conceivable. --===============8072598652572059667==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sat Sep 16 16:34:27 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 16:34:21 +0000 Message-ID: <05921971a5964a96bbea3a4ae7d850e9@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB48095F5B88696937394D1C75BAF5A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?4809=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0905395540990176237==" --===============0905395540990176237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The UK Concorde heritage sites may provide contacts / answers e.g. https://www.heritageconcorde.com/duxford Martin -----Original Message----- From: Shoppa, Tim via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 16 September 2023 16:53 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Shoppa, Tim Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology? Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask: Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's in-cab= in display? Examples: https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and F= eet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others show= it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet the d= isplay looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also popular = for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" but I'm = not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with no visibl= e segmentation? I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popular= control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't ru= le out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there d= oesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I might = expect with either of those technologies. The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at the = left and right edges which might be a clue? Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and 7-segment g= reen LED display. Don't need help with that one =F0=9F=99=82. Tim N3QE --===============0905395540990176237==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Sep 16 16:37:23 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 16:37:04 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <05921971a5964a96bbea3a4ae7d850e9@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4795131444572590886==" --===============4795131444572590886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can find some manuals here, but probably not what you want=E2=80=A6 WWW.FLIGHT-MANUALS-ONLINE.COM Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16, 2023, at 09:34, Martin Bishop via cctalk = wrote: =EF=BB=BFThe UK Concorde heritage sites may provide contacts / answers e.g. https://www.heritageconcorde.com/duxford Martin -----Original Message----- From: Shoppa, Tim via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] Sent: 16 September 2023 16:53 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Shoppa, Tim Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology? Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask: Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's in-cab= in display? Examples: https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and F= eet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others show= it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet the d= isplay looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also popular = for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" but I'm = not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with no visibl= e segmentation? I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popular= control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't ru= le out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there d= oesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I might = expect with either of those technologies. The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at the = left and right edges which might be a clue? Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and 7-segment g= reen LED display. Don't need help with that one =F0=9F=99=82. Tim N3QE --===============4795131444572590886==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Sep 16 17:02:49 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 10:02:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181FA3D05EF4231423B6239E4F5A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7823385665466179687==" --===============7823385665466179687== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apparently, the Museum of Flight in Seattle, Washington has one on display: https://www.museumofflight.org/exhibits-and-events/aircraft/concorde Perhaps if you bring a screwdriver with you they might let you peek behind some panels? :D Sellam On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:37=E2=80=AFAM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > You can find some manuals here, but probably not what you want=E2=80=A6 > > WWW.FLIGHT-MANUALS-ONLINE.COM > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 16, 2023, at 09:34, Martin Bishop via cctalk > wrote: > > =EF=BB=BFThe UK Concorde heritage sites may provide contacts / answers > > e.g. https://www.heritageconcorde.com/duxford > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shoppa, Tim via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 16 September 2023 16:53 > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Shoppa, Tim > Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology? > > Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask: > > Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's > in-cabin display? > > Examples: > > https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg > > https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg > > > The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach > and Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and > others show it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT > colors, yet the display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors > were also popular for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident > "flatness" but I'm not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits > like this with no visible segmentation? > > I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a > popular control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I > can't rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any > event there doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between > digits that I might expect with either of those technologies. > > The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at > the left and right edges which might be a clue? > > Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and > 7-segment green LED display. Don't need help with that one =F0=9F=99=82. > > Tim N3QE > > > > --===============7823385665466179687==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Sep 16 18:07:03 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 14:06:30 -0400 Message-ID: <0610A090-C23E-42FA-8A08-F017A3784BE5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181FA3D05EF4231423B6239E4F5A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5487523139167905135==" --===============5487523139167905135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice. They have quite a collection -- including two I have (I think from a d= ifferent supplier), the A-10 "Warthog" and the SR-71. Good to see that, unlike some others, they don't claim copyright on those sca= ns, which of course would not be valid (at least not in the USA). paul > On Sep 16, 2023, at 12:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > You can find some manuals here, but probably not what you want=E2=80=A6 >=20 > WWW.FLIGHT-MANUALS-ONLINE.COM >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Sep 16, 2023, at 09:34, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThe UK Concorde heritage sites may provide contacts / answers >=20 > e.g. https://www.heritageconcorde.com/duxford >=20 > Martin >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Shoppa, Tim via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 16 September 2023 16:53 > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Shoppa, Tim > Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology? >=20 > Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask: >=20 > Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's in-c= abin display? >=20 > Examples: >=20 > https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg >=20 > https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg >=20 >=20 > The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and= Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others sh= ow it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet the= display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also popula= r for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" but I'= m not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with no visi= ble segmentation? >=20 > I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popul= ar control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't = rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there= doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I migh= t expect with either of those technologies. >=20 > The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at th= e left and right edges which might be a clue? >=20 > Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and 7-segment= green LED display. Don't need help with that one =F0=9F=99=82. >=20 > Tim N3QE >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============5487523139167905135==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Sep 16 18:20:32 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 14:20:03 -0400 Message-ID: <97705896-7DD0-4CA2-8F45-525539AED6FB@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB48095F5B88696937394D1C75BAF5A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?4809=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1428096100573434788==" --===============1428096100573434788== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 16, 2023, at 11:52 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask: >=20 > Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's in-c= abin display? >=20 > Examples: >=20 > https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg >=20 > https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg >=20 >=20 > The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and= Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others sh= ow it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet the= display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also popula= r for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" but I'= m not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with no visi= ble segmentation? >=20 > I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popul= ar control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't = rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there= doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I migh= t expect with either of those technologies. I would make the same guess. They look a bit like the IEE "In line display" = numeric projection displays that were popular in the 1960s. I have a couple,= they are very nice high quality (very readable) numeric displays using a set= of mini-projectors each with its own incandescent lamp to project a digit on= to a frosted glass (or plastic) screen. https://www.industrialalchemy.org/ar= ticleview.php?item=3D511 The Concorde displays are not those exact units but they may well use the sam= e technology, or perhaps even use a custom-made variant. paul --===============1428096100573434788==-- From andreww591@gmail.com Sat Sep 16 19:14:07 2023 From: Andrew Warkentin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 13:13:57 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <97705896-7DD0-4CA2-8F45-525539AED6FB@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4350308294493179435==" --===============4350308294493179435== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/16/23, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> >> I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a >> popular control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but >> I can't rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any >> event there doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between >> digits that I might expect with either of those technologies. > > I would make the same guess. They look a bit like the IEE "In line display" > numeric projection displays that were popular in the 1960s. I have a > couple, they are very nice high quality (very readable) numeric displays > using a set of mini-projectors each with its own incandescent lamp to > project a digit onto a frosted glass (or plastic) screen. > https://www.industrialalchemy.org/articleview.php?item=511 > > The Concorde displays are not those exact units but they may well use the > same technology, or perhaps even use a custom-made variant. > > paul > > > In this video , they definitely appear to be some kind of video displays, since they show graphics before takeoff and have a very noticeable refresh. These almost certainly were a later addition, presumably replacing the 7-segment displays that Tim mentioned (which can be seen at ). --===============4350308294493179435==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Sat Sep 16 19:48:48 2023 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTD: transputer multi-cpu isa card Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 20:46:27 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8890723222102971416==" --===============8890723222102971416== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an Inmos Transputer board set sitting here somewhere around. It's a B4B-board set that consist of an B4B Master and PCT Slave card=20 (not a SGX-board set) T425=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 board EL 2217 B4B-card with 4 MByte Part rate Mb Bt [=C2=A0 Link0=C2=A0 Link1=C2=A0 Link2=C2=A0 Link3 ] (Ftest) R= AM,cycle T425c-20 0.19 0 [=C2=A0=C2=A0 HOST=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ...=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1:= 0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2:0 ]=C2=A0 (OK) 4K,1+4096K,3; T222=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 bard EL 2208 PCT card with 6 * 34 kByte Part rate Mb Bt [=C2=A0 Link0=C2=A0 Link1=C2=A0 Link2=C2=A0 Link3 ] (Ftest) R= AM,cycle T222c-20 1.64 0 [=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3:1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3:2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 5:1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 5:2 ]=C2=A0 (OK) 2K,1+32K,2; Both cards operate in a Toshiba 3100/20 with MOSES ISDN software package. Pictures and others can be seen here:=20 https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1waWgQMx6tEYwUTa2rvHbngXPYchH50nu?usp= =3Dsharing In case of interest, pls send me a PM. Thomas Am 16.09.2023 um 00:45 schrieb Tony Jones via cctalk: > I'd like to get an ISA based transputer card. Something with multiple > cpus (so not the B004). > > A B008 or one of the clones that accepts multiple TRAM modules would be > ideal (https://www.geekdot.com/inmos-b008) > > It doesn't have to be TRAM. I saw this multi-cpu board on ebay.ie but a) > it's more than I was hoping to spend b) I can't find any info on it. > Whatever I get I want there to be reasonable docs and archived > software: https://www.ebay.ie/itm/234283597489 > > Suggestions on what to look for welcomed. I'm in no rush and good things > come to those who wait. I'm in the USA but have family in the UK and go > there often so I'm looking on ebay.co.uk > > Thanks! --===============8890723222102971416==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Sat Sep 16 20:10:30 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTD: transputer multi-cpu isa card Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 13:10:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4168257113626697417==" --===============4168257113626697417== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 12:48 PM osi.superboard via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: In case of interest, pls send me a PM. > replied to you off-list. --===============4168257113626697417==-- From steven@malikoff.com Sun Sep 17 01:52:27 2023 From: "steven@malikoff.com steven@malikoff.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 11:47:19 +1000 Message-ID: <410709867.1632027.1694915239579@webmail-oxcs.register.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB48095F5B88696937394D1C75BAF5A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?4809=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0803956057649660648==" --===============0803956057649660648== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim said > Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's in-c= abin display? > https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg > https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg It sort of looks like the extreme left and right edges are curved so I think = it could be a backlit film moved between spools.=20 It also seems very flat, not impinging the cabin bulkhead. If this is the case it could be much like the late 1950s/early 60s Union Swit= ch and Signal Readall Readout which has a backlit Mylar tape: https://archive.org/details/TNM_Readall_Readout_Instruments_from_Union_Switch= _and_Signal_Division_20170623_0181/ I happen to have one I snagged off UK eBay a few years ago, it is the 64-char= acter UN366299 assignment listed on page 9. I haven't taken the cover plate off or powered it up yet. Steve. --===============0803956057649660648==-- From andreww591@gmail.com Sun Sep 17 04:20:22 2023 From: Andrew Warkentin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 22:20:16 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5865889013091024422==" --===============5865889013091024422== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/16/23, Andrew Warkentin wrote: > > In this video , they > definitely appear to be some kind of video displays, since they show > graphics before takeoff and have a very noticeable refresh. These > almost certainly were a later addition, presumably replacing the > 7-segment displays that Tim mentioned (which can be seen at > ). > Just found this article, and apparently the old displays were replaced with the new ones shortly after the grounding in 2000/2001. This would mean they are probably LCDs. http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/mods.html Also, here's a photo that very clearly shows the refresh: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7009833 --===============5865889013091024422==-- From steven@malikoff.com Sun Sep 17 04:36:57 2023 From: "steven@malikoff.com steven@malikoff.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 14:36:50 +1000 Message-ID: <1239099157.1633456.1694925410897@webmail-oxcs.register.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5272509523428014922==" --===============5272509523428014922== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew said > Just found this article, and apparently the old displays were replaced > with the new ones shortly after the grounding in 2000/2001. This would > mean they are probably LCDs. >=20 > http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/mods.html >=20 > Also, here's a photo that very clearly shows the refresh: >=20 > https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7009833 Interesting. Searching for 'Marrilite display' (I wonder what that is) turned= up this page, which mentions=20 "There was a plasma display at the front of the cabin showing the altitude, t= he air temperature and the current speed in both miles per hour and Mach numb= er." https://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-cabin--passenger-experience --===============5272509523428014922==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Sun Sep 17 04:55:40 2023 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 04:55:34 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1239099157.1633456.1694925410897@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5213126331575333977==" --===============5213126331575333977== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, it is a "Marilake" display, built by Marilake in the UK, still in = business.=20 From what I have been able to find, they were installed in British Airways Co= ncordes Around 1985, to replace a much less attractive 7 segment LED display. The Fr= ench=20 Concordes apparently retained the earlier LED type display. The other article is referring to a different display that replaced the Maril= akes. Most of the references I have found indicate the Marilakes were Plasma displa= ys. Nothing definitive, however. www.marilake.com/ Mark -----Original Message----- From: steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk =20 Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 9:37 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: steven(a)malikoff.com steven(a)malikoff.com Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Andrew said > Just found this article, and apparently the old displays were replaced=20 > with the new ones shortly after the grounding in 2000/2001. This would=20 > mean they are probably LCDs. >=20 > http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/mods.html >=20 > Also, here's a photo that very clearly shows the refresh: >=20 > https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7009833 Interesting. Searching for 'Marrilite display' (I wonder what that is) turned= up this page, which mentions "There was a plasma display at the front of the= cabin showing the altitude, the air temperature and the current speed in bot= h miles per hour and Mach number." https://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-cabin--passenger-experience --===============5213126331575333977==-- From bobalan@sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 17 06:12:28 2023 From: Bob Rosenbloom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 23:12:18 -0700 Message-ID: <6f3de960-34fd-b495-072b-5db2dbb9d48c@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB62675E6247CF830640F20915C9F4A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?6267=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2894557706344536095==" --===============2894557706344536095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This link mentions the Marilake displays were LCD:=20 https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3D194031 Most plasma displays I've seen were more red or red/orange. The Marilake=20 displays look too yellow. Could be a monochrome LCD with an EL backlight. Bob On 9/16/2023 9:55 PM, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote: > Actually, it is a "Marilake" display, built by Marilake in the UK, still i= n business. > From what I have been able to find, they were installed in British Airways= Concordes > Around 1985, to replace a much less attractive 7 segment LED display. The = French > Concordes apparently retained the earlier LED type display. > > The other article is referring to a different display that replaced the Mar= ilakes. > Most of the references I have found indicate the Marilakes were Plasma disp= lays. > Nothing definitive, however. > > www.marilake.com/ > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 9:37 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: steven(a)malikoff.com steven(a)malikoff.com > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? > > > Andrew said >> Just found this article, and apparently the old displays were replaced >> with the new ones shortly after the grounding in 2000/2001. This would >> mean they are probably LCDs. >> >> http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/mods.html >> >> Also, here's a photo that very clearly shows the refresh: >> >> https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7009833 > Interesting. Searching for 'Marrilite display' (I wonder what that is) turn= ed up this page, which mentions "There was a plasma display at the front of t= he cabin showing the altitude, the air temperature and the current speed in b= oth miles per hour and Mach number." > https://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-cabin--passenger-experience --=20 Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org --===============2894557706344536095==-- From andreww591@gmail.com Sun Sep 17 06:13:12 2023 From: Andrew Warkentin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 00:13:05 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB62675E6247CF830640F20915C9F4A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?6267=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7600557838173688015==" --===============7600557838173688015== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/16/23, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote: > Actually, it is a "Marilake" display, built by Marilake in the UK, still in > business. > From what I have been able to find, they were installed in British Airways > Concordes > Around 1985, to replace a much less attractive 7 segment LED display. The > French > Concordes apparently retained the earlier LED type display. > > The other article is referring to a different display that replaced the > Marilakes. > Most of the references I have found indicate the Marilakes were Plasma > displays. > Apparently they never actually installed newer displays despite the impression I got from the last article I linked. That makes a bit more sense. I'd think if they'd installed them in the early 2000s they would have used full-color displays. https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=319307 According to this thread, there was an early version of the Marilake display that was an LCD, but for various reasons it was rather flaky and they ended up replacing it with a plasma display, which is what is seen in most photos/videos. https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question-61.html --===============7600557838173688015==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Sun Sep 17 06:39:11 2023 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 06:39:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6f3de960-34fd-b495-072b-5db2dbb9d48c@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1310907510904502905==" --===============1310907510904502905== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, Yes, I've found no shortage of statements on the web saying they Were LCD or Plasma, just haven't found anything definitive.=20 ` The early plasma displays, like the Compaq III portable, Grid Case And others were definitely orange-red. For a while it was thought that=20 Plasma displays were going to take over the world, which they did for a while. There was apparently a lot of work going on in color plasma displays in the 80's, but it seems unlikely that a suitable color plasma was = available and rated for aircraft service by 1985. I found a NASA tech report = concerning developing plasma displays for the Space Shuttle. The commercial color displays arrived in 1992, but they were developed with much higher res and color gamut than the Concorde use would have required.=20 Given the time period, I wonder if there is anyone at modern Day Marilake that would still have the information. They did bid the proposed Updated Mach display for the return to flight planned upgrade, but that Never really happened. Called the "Rocket Project". There is a reference On an old (2005) edition of their web page. It does say that that version was= LCD. You can see that here:=20 https://web.archive.org/web/20050207053216/http://www.marilake.com/ Select "Products" then "Concorde Displays" Mark -----Original Message----- From: Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk =20 Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 11:12 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Bob Rosenbloom Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? This link mentions the Marilake displays were LCD:=20 https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3D194031 Most plasma displays I've seen were more red or red/orange. The Marilake disp= lays look too yellow. Could be a monochrome LCD with an EL backlight. Bob On 9/16/2023 9:55 PM, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote: > Actually, it is a "Marilake" display, built by Marilake in the UK, still i= n business. > From what I have been able to find, they were installed in British=20 > Airways Concordes Around 1985, to replace a much less attractive 7=20 > segment LED display. The French Concordes apparently retained the earlier = LED type display. > > The other article is referring to a different display that replaced the Mar= ilakes. > Most of the references I have found indicate the Marilakes were Plasma disp= lays. > Nothing definitive, however. > > www.marilake.com/ > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 9:37 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts=20 > > Cc: steven(a)malikoff.com steven(a)malikoff.com > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? > > > Andrew said >> Just found this article, and apparently the old displays were=20 >> replaced with the new ones shortly after the grounding in 2000/2001.=20 >> This would mean they are probably LCDs. >> >> http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/mods.html >> >> Also, here's a photo that very clearly shows the refresh: >> >> https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7009833 > Interesting. Searching for 'Marrilite display' (I wonder what that is) turn= ed up this page, which mentions "There was a plasma display at the front of t= he cabin showing the altitude, the air temperature and the current speed in b= oth miles per hour and Mach number." > https://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-cabin--passenger-experience -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org --===============1310907510904502905==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Sun Sep 17 06:43:23 2023 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 06:43:17 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6f3de960-34fd-b495-072b-5db2dbb9d48c@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8808588476716438762==" --===============8808588476716438762== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did find a reference on the UK Concorde Heritage site from a Guy who mentioned that He had been involved with rehabilitating The Marilake in their aircraft, although it was 2011. I may try to ping Him and see what he knows. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 11:12 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Bob Rosenbloom Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology? --===============8808588476716438762==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Sep 17 12:46:33 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Tracking Down a RAM Issue in a VT100 (how does the 2114 chip work?) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 13:32:11 +0100 Message-ID: <023801d9e962$fb40e020$f1c2a060$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8597782901859924770==" --===============8597782901859924770== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a non-functioning VT100. I think it is failing in the POST during the RAM check. I don't know for sure because I can't get it to light up the LEDs on the keyboard, however I used my logic analyser (a HP1630G) to see what values were written to the UART to send to the keyboard and I see it sends the values FF then 1, 2, 3, 4 and finally 5. The last value corresponds to the RAM test so I am fairly confident the RAM test is what is failing. I have disassembled the VT100 ROM and if I have understood it correctly it zeroes out the RAM (high address to low) and then for each address (low address to high) it tries first to read back the zero and then writes 0xAA to the location and tries to read that back. I am also confident the 8080 is working OK because I was able to capture an address trace on the ROM that showed it executing the program as per the disassembled ROM. My problem is getting the logic analyser reliably to tell me how each RAM chip is being addressed and what data is being read or written. I am seeing strange values for the addresses (sometimes) and I am not sure I have setup the logic analyser correctly. I have read the datasheet for the 2114 chip and I am not entirely clear that I have understood it correctly. Here is how I have set it up: Trigger on the -ve edge of Chip Select (pin 8) Capture A9-A0 as the address Capture WE as an indication of Read or Write The timing diagrams show the write cycle where the WE signal and CE signal seem to transition at the same time and the data may be only valid a bit later then the CS -ve edge. But this may just be me not knowing how to read the datasheet. Using the +ve edge of CS seems no better. Is there something I am missing about how to analyse how the RAM chips are being used? Thanks Rob --===============8597782901859924770==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Sep 18 08:55:26 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM 727 tape drive Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 10:55:13 +0200 Message-ID: <5467e0a6-1e3-93d9-3688-115e9e7efd83@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7958289792260514887==" --===============7958289792260514887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, as it will be soon of importance to us, I am seeking for the systems engineering manual and drawings, well, everything about the IBM 727 tape drive (not the 729!). I especially need the module locations charts and the module schematics. I see that there is the CE manual on bitsavers. Eventually, the other manuals are available somewhere, too? Christian --===============7958289792260514887==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 18 14:14:24 2023 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 727 tape drive Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 07:12:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5467e0a6-1e3-93d9-3688-115e9e7efd83@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7206721997848777211==" --===============7206721997848777211== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 2023-09-18 at 10:55 +0200, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > as it will be soon of importance to us, I am seeking for the systems > engineering manual and drawings, well, everything about the IBM 727 > tape > drive (not the 729!). I especially need the module locations charts > and > the module schematics. Ask Robert Garner . He's the lead for the 1401 restoration at the Computer History Museum. They don't have any 727s, but most of the project guys are retired IBM CEs. > I see that there is the CE manual on bitsavers. Eventually, the other > manuals are available somewhere, too? > > Christian --===============7206721997848777211==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Sep 18 17:14:49 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTD: transputer multi-cpu isa card Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 19:14:34 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1271408036249984548==" --===============1271408036249984548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 16 Sept 2023 at 01:45, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > > Suggestions on what to look for welcomed. Just FWIW there is now a bare-metal Transputer emulator for the Raspberry Pi Pico which is accurate enough that you can interconnect several Pi Picos *using the original INMOS silicon* for the fabric interconnect. I wrote about it: https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/06/pi_pico_transputer_code/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1271408036249984548==-- From len@shustek.com Mon Sep 18 23:36:16 2023 From: Len Shustek To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 727 tape drive Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 16:05:47 -0700 Message-ID: <7.1.0.9.2.20230918160547.07c0b4a0@shustek.com> In-Reply-To: <169505640741.2847341.12600488607841224941@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7174093849720596380==" --===============7174093849720596380== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At Mon, 18 Sep 2023 10:55:13 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote: >as it will be soon of importance to us, I am seeking for the systems >engineering manual and drawings, well, everything about the IBM 727 tape >drive (not the 729!). I especially need the module locations charts and >the module schematics. Just a few weeks ago I donated to the Computer History Museum a set of 14 original IBM black binders of "Type 7xx" manuals from the 1950s, including the 727. That one is likely to be the same as what's on bitsavers, but since it's no longer in hand I can't check. They probably haven't made it through the CHM cataloging process yet. --===============7174093849720596380==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Sep 20 10:26:52 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 727 tape drive Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 12:26:41 +0200 Message-ID: <92416065-8135-bbe7-fd1-9755c78dc977@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <7.1.0.9.2.20230918160547.07c0b4a0@shustek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7128538484511249067==" --===============7128538484511249067== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 18 Sep 2023, Len Shustek wrote: > Just a few weeks ago I donated to the Computer History Museum a set of 14=20 > original IBM black binders of "Type 7xx" manuals from the 1950s, including = > the 727. That one is likely to be the same as what's on bitsavers, but sinc= e=20 > it's no longer in hand I can't check. They probably haven't made it through= =20 > the CHM cataloging process yet. The background is, we will pick up a 727 drive next week. It appears to be=20 in a quite decent shape. I would like to restore it as much as possible,=20 so wiring diagrams, schematics, module utilization charts, in short,=20 everything that would help, is highly appreciated. The 729 is already=20 solid state, but the 727 with its tube modules is a real technical beauty :-) It doesn't seem that there is any other such drive in existence, apart=20 perhaps at the Museum of Transport and Technology in New Zealand, but they=20 describe it as "Upright rectangular unit on four wheels" and things like=20 "A.C. Motor inside unit is coloured metallic blue with red stickers" *lol* Christian --===============7128538484511249067==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 20 14:44:59 2023 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 727 tape drive Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 07:42:51 -0700 Message-ID: <49a020485313de7cd2c846bd94135e5f76e807fa.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <92416065-8135-bbe7-fd1-9755c78dc977@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9116636727401304440==" --===============9116636727401304440== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 2023-09-20 at 12:26 +0200, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 18 Sep 2023, Len Shustek wrote: > > Just a few weeks ago I donated to the Computer History Museum a set > > of 14 > > original IBM black binders of "Type 7xx" manuals from the 1950s, > > including > > the 727. That one is likely to be the same as what's on bitsavers, > > but since > > it's no longer in hand I can't check. They probably haven't made it > > through > > the CHM cataloging process yet. > > The background is, we will pick up a 727 drive next week. It appears > to be > in a quite decent shape. I would like to restore it as much as > possible, > so wiring diagrams, schematics, module utilization charts, in short, > everything that would help, is highly appreciated. The 729 is already > solid state, but the 727 with its tube modules is a real technical > beauty :-) > > It doesn't seem that there is any other such drive in existence, > apart > perhaps at the Museum of Transport and Technology in New Zealand, but > they > describe it as "Upright rectangular unit on four wheels" and things > like > "A.C. Motor inside unit is coloured metallic blue with red stickers" > *lol* I wonder if Susan Vigor has 727s with her 7094? Probably not. > > Christian --===============9116636727401304440==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Sep 21 00:24:23 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 17:24:12 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9134117682587835460==" --===============9134117682587835460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Group, Ive got a tape here from what I believe to be a VM system. The structure is unknown to me, although I can possibly take a stab at it. Lots of data between tapemarks that seems to consist of a number of records that start out something like this (translated from EBCIDC): > 00000000 02 43 4d 53 46 30 30 30 31 31 32 30 35 31 31 32 |.CMSF000112051= 12| > 00000010 34 37 30 37 36 30 31 32 32 32 31 31 30 31 31 31 |47076012221101= 11| Another example: > 00000000 02 43 4d 53 46 44 41 54 41 20 5f 4e 55 4c 4c 5f |.CMSFDATA _NUL= L_| > 00000010 3b 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 |; = | > 00000020 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 | = | The data itself appears to be a bunch of 80 character card images. I found a mention on the old yahoo groups H390-VM discussions, but no clarity was ever shed on the subject. Does anyone know about this tape format? --Chuck --===============9134117682587835460==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Sep 21 00:28:52 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 00:28:47 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7599303349977895430==" --===============7599303349977895430== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Might be IBM CMS Conversational Monitor System (CMS, originally Cambridge Mon= itor System). Used it in 1977. Don=E2=80=99t know about the format though. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 20, 2023, at 17:24, Chuck Guzis via cctalk w= rote: =EF=BB=BFGroup, Ive got a tape here from what I believe to be a VM system. The structure is unknown to me, although I can possibly take a stab at it. Lots of data between tapemarks that seems to consist of a number of records that start out something like this (translated from EBCIDC): 00000000 02 43 4d 53 46 30 30 30 31 31 32 30 35 31 31 32 |.CMSF00011205112| 00000010 34 37 30 37 36 30 31 32 32 32 31 31 30 31 31 31 |4707601222110111| Another example: 00000000 02 43 4d 53 46 44 41 54 41 20 5f 4e 55 4c 4c 5f |.CMSFDATA _NULL_| 00000010 3b 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 |; | 00000020 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 | | The data itself appears to be a bunch of 80 character card images. I found a mention on the old yahoo groups H390-VM discussions, but no clarity was ever shed on the subject. Does anyone know about this tape format? --Chuck --===============7599303349977895430==-- From drb@msu.edu Thu Sep 21 03:33:06 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 23:33:01 -0400 Message-ID: <20230921033301.0BED344787A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7849874599418933626==" --===============7849874599418933626== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ive got a tape here from what I believe to be a VM system. The > structure is unknown to me, although I can possibly take a stab at > it. Lots of data between tapemarks that seems to consist of a number > of records that start out something like this (translated from > EBCIDC): I think this might be the older VMFPLC (not VMFPLC2) format, used by IBM for software distribution and other things. The format seems fairly simple: Five character block header (x'02' 'CMS' 'N' or '0'), 800 bytes of contents. First block is the FST for the file. https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#42 Old VMFPLC may be just CMS TAPE DUMP under the covers. De --===============7849874599418933626==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Sep 21 05:34:36 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 22:34:24 -0700 Message-ID: <8c860298-2e5d-6ac9-c0e0-03df9c8de5bd@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <20230921033301.0BED344787A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1890065683683917093==" --===============1890065683683917093== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/20/23 20:33, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > Ive got a tape here from what I believe to be a VM system. The > > structure is unknown to me, although I can possibly take a stab at > > it. Lots of data between tapemarks that seems to consist of a number > > of records that start out something like this (translated from > > EBCIDC): >=20 > I think this might be the older VMFPLC (not VMFPLC2) format, used by IBM > for software distribution and other things. The format seems fairly > simple: Five character block header (x'02' 'CMS' 'N' or '0'), 800 bytes > of contents. First block is the FST for the file. >=20 > https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#42 >=20 > Old VMFPLC may be just CMS TAPE DUMP under the covers. >=20 > De Looks like there might be some grist for my mill. I'll have to take some time staring at hex dumps, but maybe I'm very close. 1600 bpi tape. What's interesting is that all of the tape blocks are what one would consider to be odd sizes: 87 bytes, 4101 bytes, etc. The distance between the CMS header and the CMSN header appears to be much larger than 800 bytes--the first, for example is about 4K . The next CMS file name header follows about 80 bytes later. I don't see any indication of file or record lengths in the header, which is troubling. The first block has the following (ASCII version) > 00000000 02 43 4d 53 46 44 41 54 41 20 5f 4e 55 4c 4c 5f |.CMSFDATA _NUL= L_| > 00000010 3b 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 |; = | > 00000020 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 | = | > * > 000000a0 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 46 49 4c 45 20 20 20 | FILE = | > 000000b0 20 20 20 50 52 49 4e 54 3b 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 | PRINT; = | > 000000c0 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 | = | > * > 000000f0 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 54 49 54 4c 45 20 20 | TITLE= | > 00000100 20 20 27 3d 3d 3d 3d 3d 3d 3e 20 42 41 44 2c 20 | '=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D> BAD, | > 00000110 4d 49 53 53 49 4e 47 20 4f 52 20 45 58 54 52 41 |MISSING OR EXT= RA| > 00000120 20 43 41 52 44 20 23 27 27 53 20 3c 3d 3d 3d 3d | CARD #''S <= =3D=3D=3D=3D| > 00000130 3d 3d 27 3b 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 |=3D=3D'; = | In any case, I'll dig a bit. This is a lone tape out of a set, so no comparatives. All the best, Chuck --Chuck --===============1890065683683917093==-- From drb@msu.edu Thu Sep 21 06:29:21 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 02:29:17 -0400 Message-ID: <20230921062917.09BC4447DD1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <8c860298-2e5d-6ac9-c0e0-03df9c8de5bd@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8302083029490185424==" --===============8302083029490185424== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The distance between the CMS header and the CMSN header appears to be > much larger than 800 bytes--the first, for example is about 4K . The > next CMS file name header follows about 80 bytes later. Later versions of the filesystem would be more likely to use 2k or 4k blocks. > I don't see any indication of file or record lengths in the header, > which is troubling. The first block has the following (ASCII > version) The FST contents would be the filesystem metadata, wherever that has landed. De --===============8302083029490185424==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Thu Sep 21 10:58:27 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:58:21 +0100 Message-ID: <1f1401d9ec7a$897bfdb0$9c73f910$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20230921033301.0BED344787A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5427503728930050010==" --===============5427503728930050010== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Boone via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2023 4:33 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Dennis Boone > Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format > > > Ive got a tape here from what I believe to be a VM system. The > structure is > unknown to me, although I can possibly take a stab at > it. Lots of data > between tapemarks that seems to consist of a number > of records that start > out something like this (translated from > EBCIDC): > > I think this might be the older VMFPLC (not VMFPLC2) format, used by IBM for > software distribution and other things. The format seems fairly > simple: Five character block header (x'02' 'CMS' 'N' or '0'), 800 bytes of contents. > First block is the FST for the file. Never seen a VMFPLC format tape, only VMFPLC2 or CMS TAPE command format. The main difference between CMSTAPE and VMFPLC2 is one has the FST at the start, the other at the end. I tweaked some utils from old to read and write these in AW format... https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onhK8KXjiJ7iUXUgRs8A?e=qS99zs which may help.. > > https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#42 > > Old VMFPLC may be just CMS TAPE DUMP under the covers. > > De Dave --===============5427503728930050010==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Sep 21 14:38:59 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 07:38:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230921062917.09BC4447DD1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6018213763238967721==" --===============6018213763238967721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I slept on the problem a bit--good thing that I'm old; I like to sleep--and think that I've got it sussed out. Tape appears to consist of 4101 byte blocks, each with a "/02CMSx" header; the first one seems to be "CMSF" with the intervening ones being "CMSV" and then a final 87 byte block starting with "/02CMSN" and with what appears to be file metadata, including the file name. The body of the 4K+ blocks appears to be 80 character card images. Last block of each file seems to be padded with nulls. I'll dig into it a bit today, but I believe that I'm on the right track. Unfortunately, the data itself is client-proprietary, so no sharing there, sorry. What threw me was that there are 5 physical files on the tape (i.e. blocks separated by tapemarks), so I was expecting something logical. Silly me. Thanks, Chuck --===============6018213763238967721==-- From drb@msu.edu Thu Sep 21 15:24:02 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:23:57 -0400 Message-ID: <20230921152357.CAC7B4A8CC2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0271660207532868322==" --===============0271660207532868322== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I slept on the problem a bit--good thing that I'm old; I like to > sleep--and think that I've got it sussed out. :) > Tape appears to consist of 4101 byte blocks, each with a "/02CMSx" > header; the first one seems to be "CMSF" with the intervening ones being > "CMSV" and then a final 87 byte block starting with "/02CMSN" and with > what appears to be file metadata, including the file name. The body of > the 4K+ blocks appears to be 80 character card images. Last block of > each file seems to be padded with nulls. Starting on pdf page 135 here is a description of the FST data structures from circa 1986: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/VM_SP/Release_5_Dec86/LY24-5221-2_VM_SP_Rel= ease_5_Data_Areas_and_Control_Block_Logic_Volume_2_CMS_Dec1986.pdf Might help sort the CMSN block. De --===============0271660207532868322==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Thu Sep 21 15:42:11 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 16:42:05 +0100 Message-ID: <245901d9eca2$2c66c510$85344f30$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7027942547420037044==" --===============7027942547420037044== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2023 3:39 PM > To: Dennis Boone via cctalk > Cc: Chuck Guzis > Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format >=20 > I slept on the problem a bit--good thing that I'm old; I like to sleep--and= think > that I've got it sussed out. >=20 > Tape appears to consist of 4101 byte blocks, each with a "/02CMSx" > header; the first one seems to be "CMSF" with the intervening ones being > "CMSV" and then a final 87 byte block starting with "/02CMSN" and with > what appears to be file metadata, including the file name. The body of > the 4K+ blocks appears to be 80 character card images. Last block of each f= ile > seems to be padded with nulls. >=20 > I'll dig into it a bit today, but I believe that I'm on the right track. >=20 > Unfortunately, the data itself is client-proprietary, so no sharing there, = sorry. >=20 > What threw me was that there are 5 physical files on the tape (i.e. > blocks separated by tapemarks), so I was expecting something logical. > Silly me. >=20 > Thanks, > Chuck Take a look at the link I pointed you too. There is code in there to list the= files on the tape and copy then to a PC disk. It will work with AWS files an= d physical tapes. Dave --===============7027942547420037044==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Sep 21 15:46:34 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:46:24 -0700 Message-ID: <1efa0ba2-a7a3-1995-2118-28906ef803a8@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <20230921152357.CAC7B4A8CC2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7073321241468715249==" --===============7073321241468715249== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/21/23 08:23, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Starting on pdf page 135 here is a description of the FST data > structures from circa 1986: >=20 > https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/VM_SP/Release_5_Dec86/LY24-5221-2_VM_SP_R= elease_5_Data_Areas_and_Control_Block_Logic_Volume_2_CMS_Dec1986.pdf >=20 > Might help sort the CMSN block. Probably will be of help. This one was easy, comparatively. I've got yet another "mystery tape", but it has standard labels and appears to be raw data for some program (said program, of course, having disappeared). The question I don't ask myself is "exactly what will anyone do with this stuff?". Card images are mostly numeric data, arranged in fields, but no information of what the fields are, for example. Thanks, Chuck --===============7073321241468715249==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Thu Sep 21 16:22:14 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 17:10:10 +0100 Message-ID: <01SWEM2VFNTG8WZBGS@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2175918855485448633==" --===============2175918855485448633== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I'll dig into it a bit today, but I believe that I'm on the right track. >=20 > Unfortunately, the data itself is client-proprietary, so no sharing > there, sorry. >=20 Hi Chuck, I think I pulled the files out of a similar tape image for you about 8 years ago using the CMSTAPE utility on MUSIC/SP. I'd be willing to do the same again for this one but it looks like your client won't allow it this time. You could fire up the MUSIC/SP demo system and use CMSTAPE yourself but it's probably easier to go with something along the lines of Dave's code if you are not familiar with MUSIC/SP. (I sent you an email about this earlier today but you probably haven't seen i= t.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. --===============2175918855485448633==-- From athornton@gmail.com Thu Sep 21 18:29:15 2023 From: Adam Thornton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:28:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169531560949.2847341.11228594788296326521@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3882669692819952383==" --===============3882669692819952383== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seems like rather than going through MUSIC/SP it'd be easier to just fire up VM/CE 1.2 (which is VM/370 r6) and use CMS TAPE (which is present) directly from the CMS UI. You can probably attach the file you've got as a tape device; not entirely sure Hercules will like the format, but it wouldn't hurt to try. Adam --===============3882669692819952383==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Thu Sep 21 18:50:44 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 19:34:17 +0100 Message-ID: <01SWER6UKDH48WZBGS@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2137560297903974490==" --===============2137560297903974490== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Seems like rather than going through MUSIC/SP it'd be easier to just fire > up VM/CE 1.2 (which is VM/370 r6) and use CMS TAPE (which is present) > directly from the CMS UI. You can probably attach the file you've got as a > tape device; not entirely sure Hercules will like the format, but it > wouldn't hurt to try. > Seems like it but it isn't. Tried that the last time the issue came up and it didn't work. "CMS TAPE" format blocks are pretty much copies of CMS disk blocks. They are most likely 1K, 2K (or maybe 4K? - I don't recall) from just before the VM/SP era or later, and most unlikely to be the 800 byte blocks which are all that VM/370 R6 supports. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > Adam > --===============2137560297903974490==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 22 03:41:01 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 20:40:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SWER6UKDH48WZBGS@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3084800432662376105==" --===============3084800432662376105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the information so far, folks. Now this boils down to interpreting the final CMS record for each file. I'm not clear on how to interpret them, however. For example, > Block 10, 87 bytes: > 000000 02 c3 d4 e2 d5 01 76 00 01 c1 f1 01 75 00 00 c6 |.CMSN....A1....F| > 000010 00 00 00 00 50 00 08 f8 f4 12 05 12 31 00 00 01 |....&..84.......| > 000020 3b 00 00 00 08 00 00 01 75 01 04 84 12 05 12 31 |...........d....| > 000030 21 00 00 00 00 e4 e3 c5 40 e2 c1 e2 c6 c9 d3 c5 |.....UTE SASFILE| > 000040 40 00 00 00 00 c3 c8 c5 c3 d2 f1 40 40 d7 e2 c1 | ....CHECK1 PSA| > 000050 e2 40 40 40 40 c1 f1 |S A1 | I can figure some parts of it; for example, the hex 50 at offset 0x14 apparently is the record length. I'm guessing that the 01 04 84 might be a date code in packed BCD. Guesses welcome ! TIA Chuck --===============3084800432662376105==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Fri Sep 22 10:11:25 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 09:57:59 +0100 Message-ID: <01SWFNBTRH4C8WZBGS@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0898834559454644318==" --===============0898834559454644318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Thanks for the information so far, folks. >=20 > Now this boils down to interpreting the final CMS record for each file. > I'm not clear on how to interpret them, however. For example, >=20 >> Block 10, 87 bytes: >> 000000 02 c3 d4 e2 d5 01 76 00 01 c1 f1 01 75 00 00 c6 |.CMSN....A1....F| >> 000010 00 00 00 00 50 00 08 f8 f4 12 05 12 31 00 00 01 |....&..84.......| >> 000020 3b 00 00 00 08 00 00 01 75 01 04 84 12 05 12 31 |...........d....| >> 000030 21 00 00 00 00 e4 e3 c5 40 e2 c1 e2 c6 c9 d3 c5 |.....UTE SASFILE= |=20 >> 000040 40 00 00 00 00 c3 c8 c5 c3 d2 f1 40 40 d7 e2 c1 | ....CHECK1 PSA| >> 000050 e2 40 40 40 40 c1 f1 |S A1 | > > I can figure some parts of it; for example, the hex 50 at offset 0x14 > apparently is the record length. I'm guessing that the 01 04 84 might > be a date code in packed BCD. >=20 > Guesses welcome ! > It looks like a disk FST tweaked for writing to tape to me. Using the FST layout in LY24-5221-2 referenced by Dennis earlier, I think maybe it might be interpreted something like below. Apologies if I've mixed anything up here. ? 01 76 Dunno ? 00 01 Dunno FSTFMODE c1 f1 (Filemode A1) FSTRECCT 01 75 (Records in file 373) FSTCLPT 00 00 Dunno FSTRECFM c6 ("F" fixed record format) FSTFLAGS 00 FSTLRECL 00 00 00 50 (Record length 80 bytes) FSTBLKCT 00 08 (800? byte block count) FSTYEARW f8 f4 (Year written: 84) ... bit of a jump here ... FSTDATEW 12 05 (Date: December 05) FSTTIMEW 12 31 (Time: 12:31) ? 00 00 01 3b Dunno FSTADBC 00 00 00 08 (should be same as FSTBLKCT for small files) FSTAIC 00 00 01 75 (should be same as FSTRECCT for small files) FSTNLVL 01 Dunno FSTPTRSZ 04 Dunno FSTADATI f8 f4 12 05 12 31 21 (Alternate date/time: 841205 12:31:21) The next part seems mangled to me. The first part of a filename seems to be missing. ? 00 00 00 00 ? e4 e3 c5 40 e2 c1 e2 c6 c9 d3 c5 40 (incomplete filenam= e?) ? 00 00 00 00 ? c3 c8 c5 c3 d2 f1 40 40 d7 e2 c1 e2 40 40 40 40 c1 f1 (complete filename) Regards, Peter Coghlan =20 > > TIA > Chuck > --===============0898834559454644318==-- From ethan@757.org Fri Sep 22 16:02:19 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Any leads on Fairlight sampler that needs repair? Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 12:02:14 -0400 Message-ID: <6b5a6ff-71f1-83a-e73e-7defea7ff46f@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1499236669522070488==" --===============1499236669522070488== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone have any leads in USA on a Fairlight CMI or similar that needs repair? S-100 based sampler from the 80s. Would be fun to restore one. - Ethan --===============1499236669522070488==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Sep 22 16:20:08 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any leads on Fairlight sampler that needs repair? Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 09:19:51 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6b5a6ff-71f1-83a-e73e-7defea7ff46f@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1697962622167674520==" --===============1697962622167674520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They are a fairly high demand item when they come up for sale, and are very expensive. Sellam On Fri, Sep 22, 2023, 9:02 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Anyone have any leads in USA on a Fairlight CMI or similar that needs > repair? S-100 based sampler from the 80s. Would be fun to restore one. > > - Ethan > --===============1697962622167674520==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 22 16:29:38 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM VM "CMS" tape format Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 09:29:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SWFNBTRH4C8WZBGS@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3308157475769516188==" --===============3308157475769516188== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/22/23 01:57, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > It looks like a disk FST tweaked for writing to tape to me. Using the FST > layout in LY24-5221-2 referenced by Dennis earlier, I think maybe it might > be interpreted something like below. Apologies if I've mixed anything up > here. Thank you, Peter. If additional samples of CMSN records would help clarify things, I can supply them. The tape itself appears to contain data from a run of SAS Institute's (https://www.sas.com/en_us/home.html) software. I can determine that it was run between the last months of 1984 and the early months of 1985 on a 3083. The client has expressed an enthusiastic interest in the content. --Chuck --===============3308157475769516188==-- From ethan@757.org Fri Sep 22 16:42:13 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any leads on Fairlight sampler that needs repair? Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 12:42:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5048169369877233549==" --===============5048169369877233549== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's why I said broken! A boy can dream! - Ethan > They are a fairly high demand item when they come up for sale, and are very > expensive. > > Sellam --===============5048169369877233549==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Sep 22 17:01:50 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 11:04:35 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SWEM2VFNTG8WZBGS@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3209318523287160271==" --===============3209318523287160271== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm working on the design for an Omnibus (PDP-8/E) debug board and I am not very good at circuit design.  I know there are programs that will compile something that looks like C into Verilog/VHDL/Abel/Etc for use on some kind of large (more than 64 pins) programmable logic device. Can any of you recommend a good C like tool for programmable logic? Thank you,              Mike --===============3209318523287160271==-- From kgeisel@outlook.com Fri Sep 22 17:10:07 2023 From: Kurt Geisel To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any leads on Fairlight sampler that needs repair? Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 17:10:01 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1883454067958783565==" --===============1883454067958783565== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You will likely learn a lot by watching this series: https://www.youtube.com/= watch?v=3DxmCrbUk1evc (we're up to Episode 17, be warned!). Or, to dream about hiring a pro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBNdZowgySnE http://ghservices.com/gregh/fairligh/ - Kurt -----Original Message----- From: Ethan O'Toole =20 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2023 9:42 AM To: Sellam Abraham via cctalk Cc: Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any leads on Fairlight sampler that needs repair? That's why I said broken! A boy can dream! - Ethan > They are a fairly high demand item when they come up for sale, and are=20 > very expensive. > > Sellam --===============1883454067958783565==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 22 17:34:15 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 11:24:32 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4468348169352520452==" --===============4468348169352520452== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FPGA's tend to be ALL 3.3 volts or less today. Cmos 22v10's are nice chips to program that is still working at 5 volts. FPGA's also have high learning curve to catch the bugs and gotya's. I got tl866 ii + programer and it works great under windows, with wincupl. --===============4468348169352520452==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 22 18:03:59 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 14:03:50 -0400 Message-ID: <28F61183-A4C0-42D8-B562-465D21EB6225@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1248796633534380405==" --===============1248796633534380405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 22, 2023, at 12:04 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I'm working on the design for an Omnibus (PDP-8/E) debug board and I am not= very good at circuit design. I know there are programs that will compile so= mething that looks like C into Verilog/VHDL/Abel/Etc for use on some kind of = large (more than 64 pins) programmable logic device. >=20 > Can any of you recommend a good C like tool for programmable logic? >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > Mike Spartan 2 FPGAs have (among other things) 3.3 volt output drivers, with a min= imum high output spec of 2.4 volts. That's probably good enough to drive 5 v= olt TTL devices. (FWIW, I've had good luck driving 5V logic from the 3.3 vol= t I/O of a Raspberry Pico. Not quite the same but similar). They also show = 5 volt tolerant inputs, so while the device is powered by 3.3 volt it can acc= ept 5V TTL inputs without complaint. I recently built a device that had a lot of inputs to that Raspberry Pico, wh= ich is documented as NOT 5V tolerant. So instead of searching for level shif= ters I simply used an array of resistive voltage dividers. Worked flawlessly. As for a C like tool, I've heard of something called "System C" for logic des= ign. No idea if it is reality for any FPGA, let alone for the older ones. T= he difficulty is that C is a sequential system description, which is fine for= (single core) computers. But logic such as FPGAs does many things concurren= tly, and that calls for a different way of describing what you need. I'd sug= gest learning VHDL; it isn't all that hard. Or Verilog I suppose, which I do= n't know. Years ago I bought Peter Ashenden's "Designer's guide to VHDL" whi= ch is very good. paul --===============1248796633534380405==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Fri Sep 22 18:41:41 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 14:34:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5292124466477186191==" --===============5292124466477186191== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-09-22 12:04, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I'm working on the design for an Omnibus (PDP-8/E) debug board and I am > not very good at circuit design.  I know there are programs that will > compile something that looks like C into Verilog/VHDL/Abel/Etc for use > on some kind of large (more than 64 pins) programmable logic device. There are still some 84pin chips out there(Altera & Xilinx). Sometimes they are pulls, or some 5V tolerant xilinx xc95xxxxl > Can any of you recommend a good C like tool for programmable logic? Stay away from them :) At the end, you will spend as much time learning the differences (as it is not real "C") so invest the time in learning system verilog or VHDL. VHDL is a little more verbose, system verilog lets you shoot in your foot much easier. If you just like to "debug" the bus, get an FPGA & some level shifters, very easy to do ... --===============5292124466477186191==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 22 19:07:18 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 12:07:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1366994548252840189==" --===============1366994548252840189== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/22/23 11:34, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > There are still some 84pin chips out there(Altera & Xilinx). Sometimes > they are pulls, or some 5V tolerant xilinx xc95xxxxl I still have a few 84 pin PLCC XC95108 5V CPLDs Originally, I did a tape controller design with one before Xilinx discontinued them. I figured that using a discontinued part was not the way forward, so I dropped the project. Xilinx did/does have its ISE design suite, which is fairly easy to use. Eventually, it turned out that using a reasonably fast MCU with 5V tolerant I/O worked just as well and avoided the "mystery in a chip" of a CPLD. --Chuck --===============1366994548252840189==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Fri Sep 22 19:24:30 2023 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 15:24:12 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1400811124490868598==" --===============1400811124490868598== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe these can help?: https://www.olimex.com/Products/FPGA/iCE40/iCE40HX1K-EVB/open-source-hardware, pair with https://www.olimex.com/Products/FPGA/iCE40/iCE40-DIO/open-source-hardware https://www.crowdsupply.com/1bitsquared/icebreaker-fpga I've personally used the iCE40 and iCE5LP in my larger designs, wonderfully capable and affordable devices. =] -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Fri, Sep 22, 2023 at 3:07 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 9/22/23 11:34, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > > There are still some 84pin chips out there(Altera & Xilinx). Sometimes > > they are pulls, or some 5V tolerant xilinx xc95xxxxl > > I still have a few 84 pin PLCC XC95108 5V CPLDs Originally, I did a > tape controller design with one before Xilinx discontinued them. I > figured that using a discontinued part was not the way forward, so I > dropped the project. Xilinx did/does have its ISE design suite, which > is fairly easy to use. > > Eventually, it turned out that using a reasonably fast MCU with 5V > tolerant I/O worked just as well and avoided the "mystery in a chip" of > a CPLD. > > --Chuck > > --===============1400811124490868598==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Fri Sep 22 19:26:26 2023 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 15:26:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5800667313183595372==" --===============5800667313183595372== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, and Verilog all the way. I just can't with VHDL. =F0=9F=98=86 -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Fri, Sep 22, 2023 at 3:24=E2=80=AFPM Anders Nelson wrote: > Maybe these can help?: > > > https://www.olimex.com/Products/FPGA/iCE40/iCE40HX1K-EVB/open-source-hardwa= re, > pair with > https://www.olimex.com/Products/FPGA/iCE40/iCE40-DIO/open-source-hardware > > https://www.crowdsupply.com/1bitsquared/icebreaker-fpga > > I've personally used the iCE40 and iCE5LP in my larger designs, > wonderfully capable and affordable devices. > > =3D] > -- > Anders Nelson > www.andersknelson.com > > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2023 at 3:07=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 9/22/23 11:34, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> >> > There are still some 84pin chips out there(Altera & Xilinx). Sometimes >> > they are pulls, or some 5V tolerant xilinx xc95xxxxl >> >> I still have a few 84 pin PLCC XC95108 5V CPLDs Originally, I did a >> tape controller design with one before Xilinx discontinued them. I >> figured that using a discontinued part was not the way forward, so I >> dropped the project. Xilinx did/does have its ISE design suite, which >> is fairly easy to use. >> >> Eventually, it turned out that using a reasonably fast MCU with 5V >> tolerant I/O worked just as well and avoided the "mystery in a chip" of >> a CPLD. >> >> --Chuck >> >> --===============5800667313183595372==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Fri Sep 22 19:59:25 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 19:59:14 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1864034752596717815==" --===============1864034752596717815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 100% disagree, Verilog and SV are bad tools - very easy to do a bad job with = - penknife grade. Verilog however is very c like in that it is untyped and prone to all the con= sequent tar pits; see above. VHDL is a good tool which is typed and like the Algol family of languages pre= cludes many follies. The 2008 flavor, which is where the tools are curently, is not as pedantic as= the older standards '97 & '83. However, any non trivial FPGA design work requires an understanding of FPGA (= not SSI/MSI) logic, an HDL and the toolchain(s). Quite a lot of learning / experience. Martin <<<<>>>> Oh, and Verilog all the way. I just can't with VHDL. =F0=9F=98=86 -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com <<<<>>>> Can any of you recommend a good C like tool for programmable logic? Thank you, Mike --===============1864034752596717815==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Fri Sep 22 20:42:59 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 20:42:48 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0774872553042522815==" --===============0774872553042522815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike The level you are working at, inspecting busses, is not really where C like t= ools are targeted - however ... I shall infer that an 8/E debug board has the functionality of a bus monitor = / logic analyser front end. The recent discussion <> cover= ed a lot of similar ground : worth reviewing. Also, the debug tools for 11's on http://retrocmp.com/ https://digilent.com/shop/cora-z7-zynq-7000-single-core-for-arm-fpga-soc-deve= lopment/ provides ~79 IOs on an Arduino footprint ('orrible) - quick cheap su= ggestion for a candidate hardware platform. That means you are using the AMD (Xilinx) toochain: - Vivado as the HDL IDE : VHDL & Verilog, a flakey simulator, HLS (High Level= Synthesis) [c like] tools and IP generation capabilities. -- inside Vivado a block diagram editor which with a bit of pro forma IP gene= ration might build your logic without any HDL -- also inside the IP library / Vivado logic analyser capabilities (ILAs) for= capturing / displaying bus signals -- and HLS implements SystemC or somesuch : a toolset for C to parallel hardw= are development - Vitis, which is basically Eclipse, for programming the hard Arm core(s) If you wish an HDL simulator, download Microchip's FPGA development tools - y= ou get ModelSim. This will be quite sufficient for pre-synthesis bebug, if you have to simulat= e post synthesis revisit the design fundamentals. There was discussion further up the chain of voltage translation / clipping. Another cheap and nasty way of doing it is Zenner diodes - works well on perf= board. Todays (fairly) Gucci voltage clamp is an N-FET with a suitable gate voltage;= there were "octal" devices using this teknik. Voltage translation devices remain quite common, but anything more assembly f= riendly than SOIC less common. However,74LVT is both 3v3 powered, possessed of 5V tollerant inputs and (mayb= e just still) in DIL packages, e.g. 74LVT244 Another handy family is 74LVC1G (and 2G ...) which also accepts 5V inputs whe= n running on 3v3 rails, e.g. 74LVC1G17 If you require HiZ, specific thresholds or hysteresis, comparators are your f= riend, e.g. TLV3501AIDBV (SOT-23) Best Wishes Martin -----Original Message----- From: Mike Katz via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 22 September 2023 17:05 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Mike Katz Subject: [cctalk] Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler I'm working on the design for an Omnibus (PDP-8/E) debug board and I am not v= ery good at circuit design.=C2=A0 I know there are programs that will compile= something that looks like C into Verilog/VHDL/Abel/Etc for use on some kind = of large (more than 64 pins) programmable logic device. Can any of you recommend a good C like tool for programmable logic? Thank you, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mike --===============0774872553042522815==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 22 21:14:50 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 15:14:39 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2038872802172104216==" --===============2038872802172104216== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-09-22 12:34 p.m., emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-09-22 12:04, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> I'm working on the design for an Omnibus (PDP-8/E) debug board and I >> am not very good at circuit design.  I know there are programs that >> will compile something that looks like C into Verilog/VHDL/Abel/Etc >> for use on some kind of large (more than 64 pins) programmable logic >> device. > > There are still some 84pin chips out there(Altera & Xilinx). Sometimes > they are pulls, or some 5V tolerant xilinx xc95xxxxl > >> Can any of you recommend a good C like tool for programmable logic? > > Stay away from them :) > > At the end, you will spend as much time learning the differences > (as it is not real "C") so invest the time in learning system verilog or > VHDL. VHDL is a little more verbose, system verilog lets you shoot in > your foot much easier. I hate both. You can't shoot yourself in the foot, because you can never figure where the feet are with all that verbose. > If you just like to "debug" the bus, get an FPGA & some level shifters, > very easy to do ... > I use ADHL. It is vender specific, but I can figure out the logic. FPGA's have too many vender specific features,to go from one brand to the other. Schematic capture, is the other option. One gota with FPGA's, flip flops only have asyncronus clears, not preset. --===============2038872802172104216==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Sep 22 21:16:59 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 16:16:45 -0500 Message-ID: <34a46bf9-89a8-0cc8-3c5d-e7889ea25d21@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8165806326293078143==" --===============8165806326293078143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Martin, The debug board will need to have the following functionality: 1. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is running using one cycle data break (DEC's version of DMA for the PDP-8). Single Cycle DMA requires some interesting signaling, including putting the priority on the data bus during part of the cycle. 2. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is halted using front panel emulation (something totally different than one cycle data break unfortunately) 3. Handle 4 breakpoints (based on address, data, R/W and count) and signal the cpu to stop.=C2=A0 I don't know, yet, if there will be enough time in the CPU's instruction cycle to top the CPU before the fetch of the next instruction.=C2=A0 If this cannot be done in hardware than a much more crude break point system can be done in software. 4. There are 96 active signals on the PDP-8/E's Omnibus.=C2=A0 I expect to need most or all of them for this project. 5. The Omnibus is an open drain, active low bus where +2.7V to +4.5V is a zero and -0.5 to +0.4V is a one.=C2=A0 I don't necessarily need a 5V tolerant gate array but what ever I use to interface to the bus will need to be. A full description of the Omnibus can be found here:=20 https://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00157_00_A_DEC_STD_157_OMNIBUS_Spe= cification_Aug76.pdf Coding the break point system in some kind of parallel C like language=20 seems way easier to me than to write this in gates.=C2=A0 I don't have a clue= =20 how to design the count registers. I need to get #'s 1 and 2 working first and then I can dive into #3. Thanks. --===============8165806326293078143==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 22 21:45:40 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 15:45:23 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <34a46bf9-89a8-0cc8-3c5d-e7889ea25d21@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3400115888385289912==" --===============3400115888385289912== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-09-22 3:16 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Martin, >=20 > The debug board will need to have the following functionality: >=20 > 1. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is running using one > =C2=A0=C2=A0 cycle data break (DEC's version of DMA for the PDP-8). Single= Cycle > =C2=A0=C2=A0 DMA requires some interesting signaling, including putting the > =C2=A0=C2=A0 priority on the data bus during part of the cycle. > 2. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is halted using front > =C2=A0=C2=A0 panel emulation (something totally different than one cycle d= ata > =C2=A0=C2=A0 break unfortunately) > 3. Handle 4 breakpoints (based on address, data, R/W and count) and > =C2=A0=C2=A0 signal the cpu to stop.=C2=A0 I don't know, yet, if there wil= l be enough > =C2=A0=C2=A0 time in the CPU's instruction cycle to top the CPU before the= fetch > =C2=A0=C2=A0 of the next instruction.=C2=A0 If this cannot be done in hard= ware than a > =C2=A0=C2=A0 much more crude break point system can be done in software. > 4. There are 96 active signals on the PDP-8/E's Omnibus.=C2=A0 I expect to > =C2=A0=C2=A0 need most or all of them for this project. > 5. The Omnibus is an open drain, active low bus where +2.7V to +4.5V is > =C2=A0=C2=A0 a zero and -0.5 to +0.4V is a one.=C2=A0 I don't necessarily = need a 5V > =C2=A0=C2=A0 tolerant gate array but what ever I use to interface to the b= us will > =C2=A0=C2=A0 need to be. >=20 > A full description of the Omnibus can be found here:=20 > https://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00157_00_A_DEC_STD_157_OMNIBUS_S= pecification_Aug76.pdf >=20 > Coding the break point system in some kind of parallel C like language=20 > seems way easier to me than to write this in gates.=C2=A0 I don't have a cl= ue=20 > how to design the count registers. >=20 > I need to get #'s 1 and 2 working first and then I can dive into #3. >=20 > Thanks. Hexadecimal displays til311, (pulled DIS1417's) can be found on ebay for=20 about $5 not counting shipping. This way you have easy to read hex or=20 octal numbers. --===============3400115888385289912==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Sep 22 22:49:06 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 17:48:54 -0500 Message-ID: <219a9a67-43b0-7242-a309-14ca8dc9b1bb@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7512351397249698106==" --===============7512351397249698106== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My plan is to have both a serial port for connection to a PC/Terminal=20 and an I2C output to a multi line display. Thanks for the suggestion. On 9/22/2023 4:45 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-09-22 3:16 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> Martin, >> >> The debug board will need to have the following functionality: >> >> 1. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is running using one >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cycle data break (DEC's version of DMA for the PDP-8). = Single Cycle >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DMA requires some interesting signaling, including putt= ing the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 priority on the data bus during part of the cycle. >> 2. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is halted using front >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 panel emulation (something totally different than one c= ycle data >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 break unfortunately) >> 3. Handle 4 breakpoints (based on address, data, R/W and count) and >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 signal the cpu to stop.=C2=A0 I don't know, yet, if the= re will be enough >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time in the CPU's instruction cycle to top the CPU befo= re the fetch >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the next instruction.=C2=A0 If this cannot be done i= n hardware than a >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 much more crude break point system can be done in softw= are. >> 4. There are 96 active signals on the PDP-8/E's Omnibus.=C2=A0 I expect to >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 need most or all of them for this project. >> 5. The Omnibus is an open drain, active low bus where +2.7V to +4.5V is >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a zero and -0.5 to +0.4V is a one.=C2=A0 I don't necess= arily need a 5V >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 tolerant gate array but what ever I use to interface to= the bus will >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 need to be. >> >> A full description of the Omnibus can be found here:=20 >> https://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00157_00_A_DEC_STD_157_OMNIBUS_= Specification_Aug76.pdf >> >> Coding the break point system in some kind of parallel C like=20 >> language seems way easier to me than to write this in gates.=C2=A0 I don't= =20 >> have a clue how to design the count registers. >> >> I need to get #'s 1 and 2 working first and then I can dive into #3. >> >> Thanks. > > Hexadecimal displays til311, (pulled DIS1417's) can be found on ebay=20 > for about $5 not counting shipping. This way you have easy to read hex=20 > or octal numbers. > --===============7512351397249698106==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 22 22:52:47 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 15:52:36 -0700 Message-ID: <2ab7a1b7-b7b9-a56c-bca2-c5ad1baa1d00@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4632861421292858147==" --===============4632861421292858147== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stupid question, I know, but someone has to ask it. Is there some overwhelming reason that the FPGA and associated logic couldn't be subsumed into an inexpensive 32-bit MCU running at, oh, 200 MHz? I can't believe that a PDP8 is all that fast... --Chuck --===============4632861421292858147==-- From cube1@charter.net Fri Sep 22 22:58:52 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 17:51:38 -0500 Message-ID: <1b6458f7-8967-bae4-834b-80c7bf51e5e7@charter.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7177942578305593938==" --===============7177942578305593938== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/22/2023 4:45 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-09-22 3:16 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> Martin, >> >> The debug board will need to have the following functionality: >> >> 1. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is running using one >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cycle data break (DEC's version of DMA for the PDP-8). = Single Cycle >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DMA requires some interesting signaling, including putt= ing the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 priority on the data bus during part of the cycle. >> 2. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is halted using front >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 panel emulation (something totally different than one c= ycle data >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 break unfortunately) >> 3. Handle 4 breakpoints (based on address, data, R/W and count) and >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 signal the cpu to stop.=C2=A0 I don't know, yet, if the= re will be enough >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time in the CPU's instruction cycle to top the CPU befo= re the fetch >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the next instruction.=C2=A0 If this cannot be done i= n hardware than a >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 much more crude break point system can be done in softw= are. >> 4. There are 96 active signals on the PDP-8/E's Omnibus.=C2=A0 I expect to >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 need most or all of them for this project. >> 5. The Omnibus is an open drain, active low bus where +2.7V to +4.5V is >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a zero and -0.5 to +0.4V is a one.=C2=A0 I don't necess= arily need a 5V >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 tolerant gate array but what ever I use to interface to= the bus will >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 need to be. >> >> A full description of the Omnibus can be found here:=20 >> https://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00157_00_A_DEC_STD_157_OMNIBUS_= Specification_Aug76.pdf >> >> Coding the break point system in some kind of parallel C like=20 >> language seems way easier to me than to write this in gates.=C2=A0 I don't= =20 >> have a clue how to design the count registers. >> >> I need to get #'s 1 and 2 working first and then I can dive into #3. >> >> Thanks. > > Hexadecimal displays til311, (pulled DIS1417's) can be found on ebay=20 > for about $5 not counting shipping. This way you have easy to read hex=20 > or octal numbers. > As an alternative, perhaps consider basing a design on the PDP-11=20 QBone/UniBONE boards, with bus interface chips to handle the 5V UNIBUS=20 signalling and a Beagle Bone with it's attached processors (PRU) for the=20 bus interface.=C2=A0 That would allow a lot of work to be done in plain old=20 C/C++/Whatever, and the board could serve as a debug board, peripheral=20 emulator, whatever based on whatever software was loaded onto BB. Also, if one would want to do logic in an FPGA, VHDL and Verilog aren't=20 *that* hard to learn if one has a background in hardware. Some resources=20 include: Logic and Computer Design Fundamentals, Mano/Kime, Prentice Hall Digital Design using Digilent FPGA Boards (There are VHDL and Verilog=20 editions) Advanced Digital Design Using Digilent FPGA Boards Even if one is not using Digitlent boards, the examples given for=20 various typical uses cases for things are helpful (counters, state=20 machines, multiplexers, selectors etc. etc.) JRJ --===============7177942578305593938==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Fri Sep 22 23:07:17 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 23:06:46 +0000 Message-ID: <6a707cd42f594a33affd1c2bf946574c@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <2ab7a1b7-b7b9-a56c-bca2-c5ad1baa1d00@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7969076439208678764==" --===============7969076439208678764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck, Your point is wholly valid, although the core will run more at 1 GHz than 200= MHz. The UniBone http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone is a UniBus board capable of= monitoring the unibus and of emulating CPU / rotating rust / memory / ... W= ith the bulk of the logic in c on an Arm Processor. Jay Jaeger has just elab= orated the UniBone's essentials. Martin -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 22 September 2023 23:53 To: ben via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Stupid question, I know, but someone has to ask it. Is there some overwhelming reason that the FPGA and associated logic couldn't= be subsumed into an inexpensive 32-bit MCU running at, oh, 200 MHz? I can't= believe that a PDP8 is all that fast... --Chuck --===============7969076439208678764==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Sep 22 23:26:53 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:26:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2ab7a1b7-b7b9-a56c-bca2-c5ad1baa1d00@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3617842832520827691==" --===============3617842832520827691== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I plan on controlling the gate array with an RP2040 dual core cortex M0 running at 133 MHz and 8 PIO processors. However, the Data Break (DMA) timings on the Omnibus are in the 100nS range.  The bus runs 6 different timing signals plus manipulating all of the other signals to implement Data Break. I just don't think a micro would be fast enough. That same holds for the break point.  In order to be able to respond to address, data, r/w and count for 4 breakpoints in the <1uS window to stop the CPU before the start of the next cycle would stress most embedded micros (sub  $10 micros anyway). The PDP-8/E main clocks are derived from a 20MHz crystal (That's a 50nS minimum timing). Quoting the DEC Omnibus Standard Document Memory, Address and Data must be settled within 50nS  minimum and no more than 250nS depending on what is going on on the bus. There is a boot strap board that emulates the front panel with an Arduino and an I/O expander. But to implement Data Break requires much more tight timing.  This bus was designed to handle core memory which requires a write after read because the read is destructive. On 9/22/2023 5:52 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Stupid question, I know, but someone has to ask it. > > Is there some overwhelming reason that the FPGA and associated logic > couldn't be subsumed into an inexpensive 32-bit MCU running at, oh, 200 > MHz? I can't believe that a PDP8 is all that fast... > > --Chuck > > --===============3617842832520827691==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Sep 22 23:28:41 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:28:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6a707cd42f594a33affd1c2bf946574c@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3584904120081698193==" --===============3584904120081698193== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no plans to emulate the CPU.=C2=A0 This is intended to be a board to=20 help debug programs and possibly some hardware issues. On 9/22/2023 6:06 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, > > Your point is wholly valid, although the core will run more at 1 GHz than 2= 00 MHz. > > The UniBone http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone is a UniBus board capable = of monitoring the unibus and of emulating CPU / rotating rust / memory / ... = With the bulk of the logic in c on an Arm Processor. Jay Jaeger has just el= aborated the UniBone's essentials. > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 22 September 2023 23:53 > To: ben via cctalk > Cc: Chuck Guzis > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler > > Stupid question, I know, but someone has to ask it. > > Is there some overwhelming reason that the FPGA and associated logic couldn= 't be subsumed into an inexpensive 32-bit MCU running at, oh, 200 MHz? I can= 't believe that a PDP8 is all that fast... > > --Chuck > > --===============3584904120081698193==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Fri Sep 22 23:53:44 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 23:53:33 +0000 Message-ID: <21cc0b9f3bed4613bf22b3aa7a59582c@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3172200937400062244==" --===============3172200937400062244== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike An M0 will require an FPGA below it to interact with the OmniBus A BeagleBone, using the PRUs - which are ~microcoded, would be in with more o= f a chance Industrial grade SoCs / FPGAs should have no difficulty Martin -----Original Message----- From: Mike Katz via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 23 September 2023 00:27 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Mike Katz Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler I plan on controlling the gate array with an RP2040 dual core cortex M0 runni= ng at 133 MHz and 8 PIO processors. However, the Data Break (DMA) timings on the Omnibus are in the 100nS range.= =C2=A0 The bus runs 6 different timing signals plus manipulating all of the o= ther signals to implement Data Break. I just don't think a micro would be fas= t enough. That same holds for the break point.=C2=A0 In order to be able to respond to = address, data, r/w and count for 4 breakpoints in the <1uS window to stop the= CPU before the start of the next cycle would stress most embedded micros (su= b=C2=A0 $10 micros anyway). The PDP-8/E main clocks are derived from a 20MHz crystal (That's a 50nS minim= um timing). Quoting the DEC Omnibus Standard Document Memory, Address and Data must be se= ttled within 50nS =C2=A0minimum and no more than 250nS depending on what is going on on the bu= s. There is a boot strap board that emulates the front panel with an Arduino and= an I/O expander. But to implement Data Break requires much more tight timing.=C2=A0 This bus w= as designed to handle core memory which requires a write after read because t= he read is destructive. On 9/22/2023 5:52 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Stupid question, I know, but someone has to ask it. > > Is there some overwhelming reason that the FPGA and associated logic=20 > couldn't be subsumed into an inexpensive 32-bit MCU running at, oh,=20 > 200 MHz? I can't believe that a PDP8 is all that fast... > > --Chuck > > --===============3172200937400062244==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sat Sep 23 00:16:12 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 19:16:00 -0500 Message-ID: <6ec114dc-d00a-4005-e483-e96c6ab4c3aa@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <21cc0b9f3bed4613bf22b3aa7a59582c@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9065920955079174001==" --===============9065920955079174001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Martin, Thank you for all of your suggestions. I am a software guy who has dabbled in hardware since I built my first=20 Heathkit in 1972.=C2=A0 I have designed simple 6809 single boards in my past = professional life but the Omnibus is several orders of magnitude more=20 complicated than a 6809. Just reading the Single Cycle Data Break documentation in the Omnibus=20 spec is enough to give me a headache. I think in C much better than I think in logic gates.=C2=A0 I can write=20 parallel C to describe parallel circuits.=C2=A0 The last time I programmed=20 any programmable logic it was FPGA's of the 10L8/16V10 variety. Sometimes the data is on the memory bus, sometimes it is on the data=20 bus, depending on whether you are reading or writing to memory, for example. There is no bus multplexing between address and data or data and memory=20 busses. Here is the basic definition of the Omnibus: Memory Address:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 15 Signals Memory Data:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 12 Signals Memory Direction:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1 Signal Data Bus:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 12 Signals I/O Control Signals:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 10 Signals DMA Control Signals:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 8 Signals Timing Signals:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 9 Signals CPU State:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 6 Signals Memory Timing:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0= 5 Signals Misc Signals:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 18 Signals (Mostly used by the front panel) One of my goals here is to use thru hole parts and sockets so the=20 average person can assemble it.=C2=A0 I realize this may be impossible bit=20 I'm trying. I have a good surface mount contract manufacturer close to my home that=20 I have a business relationship will so I can go to full surface mount if=20 I have to but that will increase the cost of the boards. On 9/22/2023 6:53 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > Mike > > An M0 will require an FPGA below it to interact with the OmniBus > > A BeagleBone, using the PRUs - which are ~microcoded, would be in with more= of a chance > > Industrial grade SoCs / FPGAs should have no difficulty > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Katz via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 23 September 2023 00:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Mike Katz > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler > > I plan on controlling the gate array with an RP2040 dual core cortex M0 run= ning at 133 MHz and 8 PIO processors. > > However, the Data Break (DMA) timings on the Omnibus are in the 100nS range= .=C2=A0 The bus runs 6 different timing signals plus manipulating all of the = other signals to implement Data Break. I just don't think a micro would be fa= st enough. > > That same holds for the break point.=C2=A0 In order to be able to respond t= o address, data, r/w and count for 4 breakpoints in the <1uS window to stop t= he CPU before the start of the next cycle would stress most embedded micros (= sub=C2=A0 $10 micros anyway). > > The PDP-8/E main clocks are derived from a 20MHz crystal (That's a 50nS min= imum timing). > > Quoting the DEC Omnibus Standard Document Memory, Address and Data must be = settled within 50nS > =C2=A0minimum and no more than 250nS depending on what is going on on the= bus. > > There is a boot strap board that emulates the front panel with an Arduino a= nd an I/O expander. > > But to implement Data Break requires much more tight timing.=C2=A0 This bus= was designed to handle core memory which requires a write after read because= the read is destructive. > > > On 9/22/2023 5:52 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Stupid question, I know, but someone has to ask it. >> >> Is there some overwhelming reason that the FPGA and associated logic >> couldn't be subsumed into an inexpensive 32-bit MCU running at, oh, >> 200 MHz? I can't believe that a PDP8 is all that fast... >> >> --Chuck >> >> --===============9065920955079174001==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Sep 23 00:45:44 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 20:45:37 -0400 Message-ID: <6EB2BD25-CEA8-4305-8B0E-8947EDBE425E@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6348192212677886014==" --===============6348192212677886014== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 22, 2023, at 3:59 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >=20 > 100% disagree, Verilog and SV are bad tools - very easy to do a bad job wit= h - penknife grade. >=20 > Verilog however is very c like in that it is untyped and prone to all the c= onsequent tar pits; see above. >=20 > VHDL is a good tool which is typed and like the Algol family of languages p= recludes many follies. > The 2008 flavor, which is where the tools are curently, is not as pedantic = as the older standards '97 & '83. I only know VHDL but I had heard that Verilog is C-like, and yes, C offers an= unusually large set of tools to shoot yourself in the foot with. So it woul= dn't surprise me that Verilog does likewise, which certainly means that it wo= uld be the option to avoid. VHDL is very clearly based on Ada, which like Pascal and ALGOL takes data typ= es seriously rather than only as suggestions the way C does. I've built some= very large designs with VHDL, but not because I actually wrote that much cod= e -- a lot is generated code produced from wire lists. But I did write all t= he models of all the 6000 modules, which does add up. Apart from vendor tools for producing bits for particular FPGAs, you can also= find VHDL simulators that just simulate a model but don't deliver it to a pa= rticular chip. I use GHDL, which is part of the GCC toolset. Yes, a VHDL co= mpiler, interesting. Among other things, it allows you to link bits in other= languages, so I can take device models from the DtCyber emulator and attach = them to a VHDL-modeled I/O channel. On FPGAs, it's worth checking what the story is for vendor tools. Some devic= es and vendors try to suck large sums of money out of you for them; Lattice i= s an example. Even for small devices (like the ispLSI2032 I used years ago) = that expense adds up rapidly. I think they have become somewhat more reasona= ble now, offering free tools for the smaller devices. I know Xilinx does so,= and "smaller" covers a surprising amount of capacity these days. I'm pretty= sure a PDP-11 model would fit fine in one of those "free tool" devices, thou= gh a CDC 6600 probably won't. paul --===============6348192212677886014==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sat Sep 23 01:09:45 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 20:09:40 -0500 Message-ID: <2061253994.1047800.1695431380982@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3461037549586568131==" --===============3461037549586568131== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 09/22/2023 6:26 PM CDT Mike Katz via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 >=20 > I plan on controlling the gate array with an RP2040 dual core cortex M0 > running at 133 MHz and 8 PIO processors. >=20 Hi Mike, Since you are planning to use a micro anyway, and it doesn't appear you will = need a great deal of external logic, you might consider one of the micros tha= t has some programmable logic on board. Cypress PSOC is the prototypical exa= mple: https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/microcontroller/32-bit-psoc-arm-corte= x-microcontroller/ They have a wide variety starting with Cortex M0 and going up, with varying a= mounts of programmable logic. Their tools are pretty nice, too, with pre-bui= lt modules and also allowing you to drop into raw HDL if you need or want to.= They have a nice selection of reasonably priced dev boards to get started. Will If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't a= ssign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless imme= nsity of the sea. Antoine de Saint-Exupery --===============3461037549586568131==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sat Sep 23 01:30:47 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 01:30:29 +0000 Message-ID: <6236dbbb82da4803a2dfcd9df6139f00@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <6EB2BD25-CEA8-4305-8B0E-8947EDBE425E@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5963213003983541004==" --===============5963213003983541004== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul I endorse your point regarding Lattice's gouging. Support for anything prior= to the XO parts now costs a significant premium. Their XO2 parts are the mo= st useful to this community - free tools and 0.5 mm pitch, e.g. 100p & 144p -= not dense but usefully large, 3v3 IO and agricultural assembly. The Xilinx free tools no longer have license files, which was how Lattice cut= us all off at the pass. The current Vivado ML Standard Edition (tools to no= rmal people) are free up to the XC7Z030 - which is a fairly serious device. = I have a PDP-11 and space to spare running in the markedly smaller XC7Z010; 1= 6b / no MMU, most of the 45 instruction set. FPGA are (organically) memory p= oor - perhaps because the access time is ~3 ns. I should think you would be = in with a chance of fitting the 6600 logic, however on a '30 you have 265 x 4= ki by BRAMs =3D ~1 Mi By, if more is required either a dedicated external me= mory device or DMA to/fr DRAM would be required. Martin -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning(a)comcast.net]=20 Sent: 23 September 2023 01:46 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Martin Bishop Subject: Re: [cctalk] Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler > On Sep 22, 2023, at 3:59 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >=20 > 100% disagree, Verilog and SV are bad tools - very easy to do a bad job wit= h - penknife grade. >=20 > Verilog however is very c like in that it is untyped and prone to all the c= onsequent tar pits; see above. >=20 > VHDL is a good tool which is typed and like the Algol family of languages p= recludes many follies. > The 2008 flavor, which is where the tools are curently, is not as pedantic = as the older standards '97 & '83. I only know VHDL but I had heard that Verilog is C-like, and yes, C offers an= unusually large set of tools to shoot yourself in the foot with. So it woul= dn't surprise me that Verilog does likewise, which certainly means that it wo= uld be the option to avoid. VHDL is very clearly based on Ada, which like Pascal and ALGOL takes data typ= es seriously rather than only as suggestions the way C does. I've built some= very large designs with VHDL, but not because I actually wrote that much cod= e -- a lot is generated code produced from wire lists. But I did write all t= he models of all the 6000 modules, which does add up. Apart from vendor tools for producing bits for particular FPGAs, you can also= find VHDL simulators that just simulate a model but don't deliver it to a pa= rticular chip. I use GHDL, which is part of the GCC toolset. Yes, a VHDL co= mpiler, interesting. Among other things, it allows you to link bits in other= languages, so I can take device models from the DtCyber emulator and attach = them to a VHDL-modeled I/O channel. On FPGAs, it's worth checking what the story is for vendor tools. Some devic= es and vendors try to suck large sums of money out of you for them; Lattice i= s an example. Even for small devices (like the ispLSI2032 I used years ago) = that expense adds up rapidly. I think they have become somewhat more reasona= ble now, offering free tools for the smaller devices. I know Xilinx does so,= and "smaller" covers a surprising amount of capacity these days. I'm pretty= sure a PDP-11 model would fit fine in one of those "free tool" devices, thou= gh a CDC 6600 probably won't. paul --===============5963213003983541004==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sat Sep 23 08:46:39 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 09:46:22 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6236dbbb82da4803a2dfcd9df6139f00@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2600714132444892889==" --===============2600714132444892889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are now some open source tools for working with fpgas. They started with the ice40 but have now been extended to cover others such that it's worth googling for free fpga tools rather than going to a single site. example https://www.digikey.co.uk/en/maker/projects/introduction-to-fpga-part-2-toolc= hain-setup/563a9518cd11466fb6a75cf3cb684d6d On Sat, Sep 23, 2023 at 2:30=E2=80=AFAM Martin Bishop via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Paul > > I endorse your point regarding Lattice's gouging. Support for anything > prior to the XO parts now costs a significant premium. Their XO2 parts are > the most useful to this community - free tools and 0.5 mm pitch, e.g. 100p > & 144p - not dense but usefully large, 3v3 IO and agricultural assembly. > > The Xilinx free tools no longer have license files, which was how Lattice > cut us all off at the pass. The current Vivado ML Standard Edition (tools > to normal people) are free up to the XC7Z030 - which is a fairly serious > device. I have a PDP-11 and space to spare running in the markedly smaller > XC7Z010; 16b / no MMU, most of the 45 instruction set. FPGA are > (organically) memory poor - perhaps because the access time is ~3 ns. I > should think you would be in with a chance of fitting the 6600 logic, > however on a '30 you have 265 x 4 ki by BRAMs =3D ~1 Mi By, if more is > required either a dedicated external memory device or DMA to/fr DRAM would > be required. > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning(a)comcast.net] > Sent: 23 September 2023 01:46 > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Martin Bishop > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler > > > > > On Sep 22, 2023, at 3:59 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > 100% disagree, Verilog and SV are bad tools - very easy to do a bad job > with - penknife grade. > > > > Verilog however is very c like in that it is untyped and prone to all > the consequent tar pits; see above. > > > > VHDL is a good tool which is typed and like the Algol family of > languages precludes many follies. > > The 2008 flavor, which is where the tools are curently, is not as > pedantic as the older standards '97 & '83. > > I only know VHDL but I had heard that Verilog is C-like, and yes, C offers > an unusually large set of tools to shoot yourself in the foot with. So it > wouldn't surprise me that Verilog does likewise, which certainly means that > it would be the option to avoid. > > VHDL is very clearly based on Ada, which like Pascal and ALGOL takes data > types seriously rather than only as suggestions the way C does. I've built > some very large designs with VHDL, but not because I actually wrote that > much code -- a lot is generated code produced from wire lists. But I did > write all the models of all the 6000 modules, which does add up. > > Apart from vendor tools for producing bits for particular FPGAs, you can > also find VHDL simulators that just simulate a model but don't deliver it > to a particular chip. I use GHDL, which is part of the GCC toolset. Yes, > a VHDL compiler, interesting. Among other things, it allows you to link > bits in other languages, so I can take device models from the DtCyber > emulator and attach them to a VHDL-modeled I/O channel. > > On FPGAs, it's worth checking what the story is for vendor tools. Some > devices and vendors try to suck large sums of money out of you for them; > Lattice is an example. Even for small devices (like the ispLSI2032 I used > years ago) that expense adds up rapidly. I think they have become somewhat > more reasonable now, offering free tools for the smaller devices. I know > Xilinx does so, and "smaller" covers a surprising amount of capacity these > days. I'm pretty sure a PDP-11 model would fit fine in one of those "free > tool" devices, though a CDC 6600 probably won't. > > paul > > > --===============2600714132444892889==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sat Sep 23 11:58:16 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 07:58:07 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6ec114dc-d00a-4005-e483-e96c6ab4c3aa@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8149643797752453393==" --===============8149643797752453393== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-09-22 20:16, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Martin, >=20 > Thank you for all of your suggestions. Actually, there is something like you're trying to do, on discord, he is making a board for the data general nova: https://discord.com/channels/700194611091472415/805549176238112768/1137590594= 831646860 --===============8149643797752453393==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sat Sep 23 13:06:46 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FW: Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 23:58:29 +0000 Message-ID: <9a6294ee77bd4ba6bbec9c22114b6725@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <34a46bf9-89a8-0cc8-3c5d-e7889ea25d21@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3514007373716253464==" --===============3514007373716253464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike A key factor is that 60 years have passed: - the PDP8/E (and its chums) were core store machines - the bus time slots are 300 + 250 + 350 + 300 ns =3D 1200 ns [T1 T2 T3= T4 phases of core access] - FPGA fabric can trivially run at 100 MHz, and talk to an AXI bus + Ar= m Core - SoCs have 32 / 64 bit =E2=80=9Cexternal=E2=80=9D data busses - Arm cores run at 666 MHz and above - consequently the test hardware is ~3 orders of magnitude faster than = the old iron, wider and capable of performing lots of (hardware) logic in 10 = ns =E2=80=93 a cascade of 10 LUT6=E2=80=99s is not unreasonable on a mid rang= e FPGA. To cut to the chase, a clone of the UniBone should be possible and largely a = software project =E2=80=93 there is a large body of code and experience to bu= ild on and the Omni and Uni / Q Busses are similar. The 96 signals need not define the scale of the FPGA / SoC hardware. There i= s probably scope for multiplexing / serialising the lines to / from the OmniB= us =E2=80=93 I should think the RetroCmp designs use this technology =E2=80= =93 unfortunately I have not had the time to read them sufficiently carefully= to say. Interfacing between the omnibus and an FPGA / SoC will require debouncing and= a metastable hardened synchronisers (~3 stages of FFs) to bring the signals = into the FPGA/SoC synchronous domain. Beyond a Schmidt trigger / equivalent = front end this is a job for modern digits, in the input FPGA/CPLD(s). Re your specific requirements: 1) Was a hardware task 60 years ago, It would now be trivial to do it with= an FPGA controlled by any reasonable processor 2) You should be able to this by bit banging over JTAG, maybe with a littl= e hardware assist 3) Sequencer breakpoints in FPGAs are straightforward, provide the conditi= on and it pulls the stop line; all that is required are condition register se= ts and comparison logic 4) see comment above re Mux/Serial 5) I should think avoiding stubs will be more important than the specific = input devices I would restate your needs / the design as: a) bus interface b) FPGA interface c) bus receiving, driving, uC demand (e.g. DMA, FP emulation, breakpoint c= onditions) and reactive logic d) uC code HtH; Best Regards Martin From: Mike Katz [mailto:bitwiz(a)12bitsbest.com] Sent: 22 September 2023 22:17 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Martin Bishop > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Martin, The debug board will need to have the following functionality: 1. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is running using one cycle d= ata break (DEC's version of DMA for the PDP-8). Single Cycle DMA requires so= me interesting signaling, including putting the priority on the data bus duri= ng part of the cycle. 2. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is halted using front panel = emulation (something totally different than one cycle data break unfortunatel= y) 3. Handle 4 breakpoints (based on address, data, R/W and count) and signal= the cpu to stop. I don't know, yet, if there will be enough time in the CPU= 's instruction cycle to top the CPU before the fetch of the next instruction.= If this cannot be done in hardware than a much more crude break point syste= m can be done in software. 4. There are 96 active signals on the PDP-8/E's Omnibus. I expect to need= most or all of them for this project. 5. The Omnibus is an open drain, active low bus where +2.7V to +4.5V is a = zero and -0.5 to +0.4V is a one. I don't necessarily need a 5V tolerant gate= array but what ever I use to interface to the bus will need to be. A full description of the Omnibus can be found here: https://bitsavers.org/p= df/dec/standards/EL-00157_00_A_DEC_STD_157_OMNIBUS_Specification_Aug76.pdf Coding the break point system in some kind of parallel C like language seems = way easier to me than to write this in gates. I don't have a clue how to des= ign the count registers. I need to get #'s 1 and 2 working first and then I can dive into #3. Thanks. --===============3514007373716253464==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sat Sep 23 13:06:53 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 01:01:51 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6ec114dc-d00a-4005-e483-e96c6ab4c3aa@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5159768746718642334==" --===============5159768746718642334== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike I shall focus a few specifics I did 30+ years of software, with occasional hardware toys, before I added 20= years of Hw, FPGA & Sw : old dogs can learn. FPGA logic source has more in common with software than old school (SSI / MSI= / LSI) hardware. With the bonus that it all happens in parallel. Essential= ly you instantiate lots of little processors / state machines, with some inte= rconnect and some IO knitting. It has not got any better since the OmiBus data break spec, the AXI spec is s= ufficiently complex that testing DMA interfaces is done at a minimum with ver= ification IP. Although AXI busses do at least have a "global" synchronous cl= ock. Interface complexity / verification is just one of those little challen= ges. I appreciate that OmniBus is not a multiplexed bus, like Q-bus. I was sugges= ting that you could multiplex the bus signals to/fr your processing hardware = to enable the use of cheaper/simpler hardware. Of course, YMMV. The data being on either memory or data bus would not defeat an FPGA, as it w= ould know the state of RnW and make the appropriate comparison. And, in VHDL= it would all read like "parallel" Ada.=20 Down to 0.5 mm pitch gull wing legs can be readily hand soldered by a wireman= . Surface mount double sided PCBs can be hand assembled (by me), in small qu= antities, by restricting the components to 0603 and 0.65 mm pitch using an un= der board heater and hot air. The fine pitch stuff goes on first. OTOH a go= od wireman can hand solder 0402 components. So, don't back off completely fr= om SMD. You "only" need: a quartz heater, a hot air wand, and a solder paste= dispenser (you spit it on by hand). Note that surface tension squares every= thing up and moves the solder onto the pads; which need to be (hand assembly)= oversize. NB this approach is for very low volume / zero budget / assemble = tonight work; for serious boards / volumes you send the kit to the assembler. BGAs are another story - dodge them; e.g. use https://digilent.com/shop/cmod-= a7-35t-breadboardable-artix-7-fpga-module/ or similar to apply FPGAs in a 0.1= " DIL form factor, at LVTTL levels. You could build an OmniBus interface wit= h two of these, some bus interface chips 74LVC for Rx, something OD (and not = too fast) for Tx, and a "host" processor. Best Regards Martin =20 -----Original Message----- From: Mike Katz [mailto:bitwiz(a)12bitsbest.com]=20 Sent: 23 September 2023 01:16 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Martin Bishop Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Martin, Thank you for all of your suggestions. I am a software guy who has dabbled in hardware since I built my first Heathk= it in 1972.=C2=A0 I have designed simple 6809 single boards in my past profes= sional life but the Omnibus is several orders of magnitude more complicated t= han a 6809. Just reading the Single Cycle Data Break documentation in the Omnibus spec is= enough to give me a headache. I think in C much better than I think in logic gates.=C2=A0 I can write paral= lel C to describe parallel circuits.=C2=A0 The last time I programmed any pro= grammable logic it was FPGA's of the 10L8/16V10 variety. Sometimes the data is on the memory bus, sometimes it is on the data bus, dep= ending on whether you are reading or writing to memory, for example. There is no bus multplexing between address and data or data and memory busse= s. Here is the basic definition of the Omnibus: Memory Address:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 15 Signals Memory Data:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 12 Signals Memory Direction:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1 Signal Data Bus:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 12 Signals I/O Control Signal= s:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 10 Signals DMA Control Signals:=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 8 Signals Timing Signals:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 9 Signals CPU State:= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 6 Signals Memory Timing:=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5 Signals Misc Signals= :=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0 18 Signals (Mostly used by the front panel) One of my goals here is to use thru hole parts and sockets so the average per= son can assemble it.=C2=A0 I realize this may be impossible bit I'm trying. I have a good surface mount contract manufacturer close to my home that I hav= e a business relationship will so I can go to full surface mount if I have to= but that will increase the cost of the boards. On 9/22/2023 6:53 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > Mike > > An M0 will require an FPGA below it to interact with the OmniBus > > A BeagleBone, using the PRUs - which are ~microcoded, would be in with=20 > more of a chance > > Industrial grade SoCs / FPGAs should have no difficulty > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Katz via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 23 September 2023 00:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts=20 > > Cc: Mike Katz > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler > > I plan on controlling the gate array with an RP2040 dual core cortex M0 run= ning at 133 MHz and 8 PIO processors. > > However, the Data Break (DMA) timings on the Omnibus are in the 100nS range= .=C2=A0 The bus runs 6 different timing signals plus manipulating all of the = other signals to implement Data Break. I just don't think a micro would be fa= st enough. > > That same holds for the break point.=C2=A0 In order to be able to respond t= o address, data, r/w and count for 4 breakpoints in the <1uS window to stop t= he CPU before the start of the next cycle would stress most embedded micros (= sub=C2=A0 $10 micros anyway). > > The PDP-8/E main clocks are derived from a 20MHz crystal (That's a 50nS min= imum timing). > > Quoting the DEC Omnibus Standard Document Memory, Address and Data must be = settled within 50nS > =C2=A0minimum and no more than 250nS depending on what is going on on the= bus. > > There is a boot strap board that emulates the front panel with an Arduino a= nd an I/O expander. > > But to implement Data Break requires much more tight timing.=C2=A0 This bus= was designed to handle core memory which requires a write after read because= the read is destructive. > > > On 9/22/2023 5:52 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Stupid question, I know, but someone has to ask it. >> >> Is there some overwhelming reason that the FPGA and associated logic=20 >> couldn't be subsumed into an inexpensive 32-bit MCU running at, oh, >> 200 MHz? I can't believe that a PDP8 is all that fast... >> >> --Chuck >> >> --===============5159768746718642334==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Sep 23 18:28:56 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 14:28:25 -0400 Message-ID: <61D7F3C4-6E8B-4B74-947E-89CBBC6B7D4A@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4639836167724877924==" --===============4639836167724877924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 22, 2023, at 9:01 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > Down to 0.5 mm pitch gull wing legs can be readily hand soldered by a wirem= an. Surface mount double sided PCBs can be hand assembled (by me), in small = quantities, by restricting the components to 0603 and 0.65 mm pitch using an = under board heater and hot air. The fine pitch stuff goes on first. OTOH a = good wireman can hand solder 0402 components. So, don't back off completely = from SMD. You "only" need: a quartz heater, a hot air wand, and a solder pas= te dispenser (you spit it on by hand). Note that surface tension squares eve= rything up and moves the solder onto the pads; which need to be (hand assembl= y) oversize. NB this approach is for very low volume / zero budget / assembl= e tonight work; for serious boards / volumes you send the kit to the assemble= r. I used to not mind sub-mm lead pitch; but my most recent bout with SMD (with = a TSSOP multi-RS232 transceiver) was enough trouble with my older hands that = I'm more hesitant now. Then again, the fact that I didn't make the footprint= quite wide enough undoubtedly didn't help. Leadless packages may actually b= e easier -- no micro-legs to break off. Next time, maybe. > BGAs are another story - dodge them; e.g. use https://digilent.com/shop/cmo= d-a7-35t-breadboardable-artix-7-fpga-module/ or similar to apply FPGAs in a 0= .1" DIL form factor, at LVTTL levels. You could build an OmniBus interface w= ith two of these, some bus interface chips 74LVC for Rx, something OD (and no= t too fast) for Tx, and a "host" processor. There have been some good articles about assembling SMD boards (I think inclu= ding at least modest size BGA) using a toaster oven with a suitable heat cont= roller. John Wilson of Ersatz-11 fame made such a controller (an Arduino dau= ghterboard). For solder paste, some PCB shops make stencils quite cheaply, o= r partner with a maker of those; OSH is one I remember. They might be the cl= assic stainless steel ones or a less expensive (and less but sufficiently dur= able) material. I should try this one of these days. paul --===============4639836167724877924==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Sep 23 18:31:11 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 14:31:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7702621464880806204==" --===============7702621464880806204== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 22, 2023, at 3:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 9/22/23 11:34, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> There are still some 84pin chips out there(Altera & Xilinx). Sometimes >> they are pulls, or some 5V tolerant xilinx xc95xxxxl >=20 > I still have a few 84 pin PLCC XC95108 5V CPLDs Originally, I did a > tape controller design with one before Xilinx discontinued them. I > figured that using a discontinued part was not the way forward, so I > dropped the project. Xilinx did/does have its ISE design suite, which > is fairly easy to use. >=20 > Eventually, it turned out that using a reasonably fast MCU with 5V > tolerant I/O worked just as well and avoided the "mystery in a chip" of > a CPLD. I used an Arduino Feather that way, for my PS-2 to LK201 converter. And whil= e not 5V tolerant, a Raspberry Pico is a particularly powerful and cheap opti= on; one of my projects could run DDCMP at 10 Mb/s including the "integral mod= em" compatible signaling. As I mentioned, 5V tolerant inputs can, at least for not too high speeds, be = done simply by resistive voltage dividers. paul --===============7702621464880806204==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Sep 23 18:36:37 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 14:36:29 -0400 Message-ID: <9960B34F-DA0E-4447-B51B-AF4FA92F154C@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6236dbbb82da4803a2dfcd9df6139f00@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5970055191051190887==" --===============5970055191051190887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 22, 2023, at 9:30 PM, Martin Bishop wrote: >=20 > Paul >=20 > I endorse your point regarding Lattice's gouging. Support for anything pri= or to the XO parts now costs a significant premium. Their XO2 parts are the = most useful to this community - free tools and 0.5 mm pitch, e.g. 100p & 144p= - not dense but usefully large, 3v3 IO and agricultural assembly. >=20 > The Xilinx free tools no longer have license files, which was how Lattice c= ut us all off at the pass. The current Vivado ML Standard Edition (tools to = normal people) are free up to the XC7Z030 - which is a fairly serious device.= I have a PDP-11 and space to spare running in the markedly smaller XC7Z010;= 16b / no MMU, most of the 45 instruction set. FPGA are (organically) memory= poor - perhaps because the access time is ~3 ns. I should think you would b= e in with a chance of fitting the 6600 logic, however on a '30 you have 265 x= 4 ki by BRAMs =3D ~1 Mi By, if more is required either a dedicated external = memory device or DMA to/fr DRAM would be required. The 6600 model I'm building is a gate level model, so it is cycle-accurate, b= ut also large. I'm figuring several hundred thousand gates, which makes sens= e if you consider the module count for a 6600. A large enough FPGA for that = seems to have enough on-chip memory for both PP and CP memories, leaving only= ECS as off-chip. That's helpful because both PP and CP have tightly constra= ined cycles; DRAM would be nearly impossible to make work, though SRAM is doa= ble. paul --===============5970055191051190887==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 23 19:03:29 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 13:03:19 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9960B34F-DA0E-4447-B51B-AF4FA92F154C@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7951211803911605121==" --===============7951211803911605121== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-09-23 12:36 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 22, 2023, at 9:30 PM, Martin Bishop wrote: >> >> Paul >> >> I endorse your point regarding Lattice's gouging. Support for anything pr= ior to the XO parts now costs a significant premium. Their XO2 parts are the= most useful to this community - free tools and 0.5 mm pitch, e.g. 100p & 144= p - not dense but usefully large, 3v3 IO and agricultural assembly. >> >> The Xilinx free tools no longer have license files, which was how Lattice = cut us all off at the pass. The current Vivado ML Standard Edition (tools to= normal people) are free up to the XC7Z030 - which is a fairly serious device= . I have a PDP-11 and space to spare running in the markedly smaller XC7Z010= ; 16b / no MMU, most of the 45 instruction set. FPGA are (organically) memor= y poor - perhaps because the access time is ~3 ns. I should think you would = be in with a chance of fitting the 6600 logic, however on a '30 you have 265 = x 4 ki by BRAMs =3D ~1 Mi By, if more is required either a dedicated external= memory device or DMA to/fr DRAM would be required. >=20 > The 6600 model I'm building is a gate level model, so it is cycle-accurate,= but also large. I'm figuring several hundred thousand gates, which makes se= nse if you consider the module count for a 6600. A large enough FPGA for tha= t seems to have enough on-chip memory for both PP and CP memories, leaving on= ly ECS as off-chip. That's helpful because both PP and CP have tightly const= rained cycles; DRAM would be nearly impossible to make work, though SRAM is d= oable. >=20 > paul >=20 I say get the memory first, who knows what you need will be around=20 later. I wish you good luck, as FPGA software does what it thinks is=20 right, not what you think is right. Ben. --===============7951211803911605121==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sat Sep 23 19:29:56 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 19:29:33 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9960B34F-DA0E-4447-B51B-AF4FA92F154C@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2567906993078721416==" --===============2567906993078721416== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul A Zynq '30 has 125,000 Logic Cells, a ZU4EG has 192,000 logic cells. Both ca= n be synthesised with the free tools. You may of course get more LCs on a su= pported FPGA, vice SoC. Logic cell is a marketing term, the engineering equivalent would be "LUT4 + F= F". Google assures me that a Logic cell is ~15 ASIC gates. So the Z30's fabric looks like it may be a 2 M ASIC gate equivalent device. = YMMV I look forward to hearing reports on what its utility is for implementing the= 6600. Martin=20 -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning(a)comcast.net]=20 Sent: 23 September 2023 19:36 The 6600 model I'm building is a gate level model, so it is cycle-accurate, b= ut also large. I'm figuring several hundred thousand gates, which makes sens= e if you consider the module count for a 6600. A large enough FPGA for that = seems to have enough on-chip memory for both PP and CP memories, leaving only= ECS as off-chip. That's helpful because both PP and CP have tightly constra= ined cycles; DRAM would be nearly impossible to make work, though SRAM is doa= ble. paul --===============2567906993078721416==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sat Sep 23 20:25:27 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 14:25:08 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7541374667961414582==" --===============7541374667961414582== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 12:31 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Sep 22, 2023, at 3:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 9/22/23 11:34, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > > >> There are still some 84pin chips out there(Altera & Xilinx). Sometimes > >> they are pulls, or some 5V tolerant xilinx xc95xxxxl > > > > I still have a few 84 pin PLCC XC95108 5V CPLDs Originally, I did a > > tape controller design with one before Xilinx discontinued them. I > > figured that using a discontinued part was not the way forward, so I > > dropped the project. Xilinx did/does have its ISE design suite, which > > is fairly easy to use. > > > > Eventually, it turned out that using a reasonably fast MCU with 5V > > tolerant I/O worked just as well and avoided the "mystery in a chip" of > > a CPLD. > > I used an Arduino Feather that way, for my PS-2 to LK201 converter. And > while not 5V tolerant, a Raspberry Pico is a particularly powerful and > cheap option; one of my projects could run DDCMP at 10 Mb/s including the > "integral modem" compatible signaling. > > As I mentioned, 5V tolerant inputs can, at least for not too high speeds, > be done simply by resistive voltage dividers. > What's too fast in absolute terms? Warner paul > > > --===============7541374667961414582==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sat Sep 23 21:06:46 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 16:06:41 -0500 Message-ID: <114485206.1110291.1695503201979@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7079233441808176927==" --===============7079233441808176927== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 09/23/2023 3:25 PM CDT Warner Losh via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 12:31 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > > > > > > On Sep 22, 2023, at 3:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On 9/22/23 11:34, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > >> There are still some 84pin chips out there(Altera & Xilinx). Sometimes > > >> they are pulls, or some 5V tolerant xilinx xc95xxxxl > > > > > > I still have a few 84 pin PLCC XC95108 5V CPLDs Originally, I did a > > > tape controller design with one before Xilinx discontinued them. I > > > figured that using a discontinued part was not the way forward, so I > > > dropped the project. Xilinx did/does have its ISE design suite, which > > > is fairly easy to use. > > > Eventually, it turned out that using a reasonably fast MCU with 5V > > > tolerant I/O worked just as well and avoided the "mystery in a chip" of > > > a CPLD. > > I used an Arduino Feather that way, for my PS-2 to LK201 converter. And > > while not 5V tolerant, a Raspberry Pico is a particularly powerful and > > cheap option; one of my projects could run DDCMP at 10 Mb/s including the > > "integral modem" compatible signaling. > > As I mentioned, 5V tolerant inputs can, at least for not too high speeds, > > be done simply by resistive voltage dividers. >=20 > What's too fast in absolute terms? >=20 > Warner >=20 > paul > > > > > > I can't answer for Paul, but I can tell you how to do approximate calculation= s for yourself. =20 You need to know two things: the equivalent parallel resistance (Thevenin equ= ivalent) of the two series resistors and the input capacitance of the driven = pin (including stray capacitance.) =20 If you assume the input+stray capacitance is 10 pF (a reasonable first approx= imation) and the resistance is 1000 Ohms, the time constant (time for the sig= nal to go from 0 to 63% of max) will be 1000 * 10E(-12) seconds or 10,000 pic= oseconds =3D 10 nanoseconds. That assumes the 5V output can switch instantan= eously into the 5 mA or so load. I would double that for the real world. So= the signal gets delayed around 20 nS and the output has to drive 5 mA or so. A more realistic divider might be 5K or 10K resistance for less power consump= tion and less strain on the output. With 10K you are looking at a delay of 1= 00 to 200 nS. If the timing isn't critical you "might" be able to go as high= as 5 MHz that way. But probably more like 1 MHz is more realistic. =20 I've used voltage divider level translation at about 1 MHz, using something l= ike 2200 and 4700 ohms for the divider (Thevenin equivalent 1500.) ymmv Will If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't a= ssign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless imme= nsity of the sea. Antoine de Saint-Exupery --===============7079233441808176927==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Sep 24 15:13:48 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 11:13:41 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <114485206.1110291.1695503201979@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9132580125262052247==" --===============9132580125262052247== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2023, at 5:06 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I can't answer for Paul, but I can tell you how to do approximate calculati= ons for yourself. =20 >=20 > You need to know two things: the equivalent parallel resistance (Thevenin e= quivalent) of the two series resistors and the input capacitance of the drive= n pin (including stray capacitance.) =20 >=20 > If you assume the input+stray capacitance is 10 pF (a reasonable first appr= oximation) and the resistance is 1000 Ohms, the time constant (time for the s= ignal to go from 0 to 63% of max) will be 1000 * 10E(-12) seconds or 10,000 p= icoseconds =3D 10 nanoseconds. That assumes the 5V output can switch instant= aneously into the 5 mA or so load. I would double that for the real world. = So the signal gets delayed around 20 nS and the output has to drive 5 mA or s= o. >=20 > A more realistic divider might be 5K or 10K resistance for less power consu= mption and less strain on the output. With 10K you are looking at a delay of= 100 to 200 nS. If the timing isn't critical you "might" be able to go as hi= gh as 5 MHz that way. But probably more like 1 MHz is more realistic. =20 >=20 > I've used voltage divider level translation at about 1 MHz, using something= like 2200 and 4700 ohms for the divider (Thevenin equivalent 1500.) That sounds right. In my case, I was using a Raspberry Pico as an EPP mode p= arallel port emulator, so order of 1 MHz would be a good outcome. Also, EPP = mode is an interlocked (handshakes) communication protocol so any delays intr= oduced by what I was doing would not interfere with operation. paul --===============9132580125262052247==-- From erik@baigar.de Sun Sep 24 15:31:28 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 15:31:22 +0000 Message-ID: <169556948276.4006402.7692462215505111847@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8215441652045396722==" --===============8215441652045396722== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi there,=20 in the last weeks my last two working UltraBooks died. Today I investigated t= he problem=20 and obviously in these RDI made notebooks, the NVRAMs not only contain the bo= ot information, the host ID and the MAC address but also the hardware configuration. Hence: Once the NVRAM is completeley dead, absent or replaced, the unit will = not=20 start up any more - it gets stuck in the power on test BEFORE the screen show= s any information. Do anyone out there have got UltraBooks or UltraBooks IIi up and running? Wou= ld=20 highly be interested in a dump of the NVRAM/Timekeeper!!! The failed first generation UltraBook are (DS1643 NVRAM): (*) U20-14-9-512P with three (!!) hard drives, no battery port (*) U20-14-3-128B two hard drives, battery port And my beloved UltraBook IIi (TimeKeeper DS1553-070) (*) U40-14-1X-1024C one harddrive, battery port and creator graphics. Reply here or PM erik(a)baigar.de, Thanks ''~`` ( o o ) +--------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.-------------------------+ | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | | Salzstrasse 1 .oooO Vintage Computer | | D87616 Marktoberdorf ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist / Physicist | | erik(a)baigar.de +------\ (----( )---------------------------+ | www.baigar.de | \_) ) / +----------------------+ (_/ So advice to all owners: Backup your NVRAM contents and I'd be more than happ= y=20 to get in touch with you! Not affected seem to be the PrecisionBooks (e.g. H16-12-8-512L2, two hard- drives and battery port) as they do not contain an NVRAM/TimeKeeper. --===============8215441652045396722==-- From plamenspam@afterpeople.com Sun Sep 24 15:36:21 2023 From: Plamen Mihaylov To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 18:36:15 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169556948276.4006402.7692462215505111847@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5063535072709413942==" --===============5063535072709413942== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen similar behavior on all Force2CE VME boards with empty NVRAM. On Sunday, September 24, 2023, erik--- via cctalk wrote: > Hi there, > > in the last weeks my last two working UltraBooks died. Today I > investigated the problem > and obviously in these RDI made notebooks, the NVRAMs not only contain the > boot information, > the host ID and the MAC address but also the hardware configuration. > > Hence: Once the NVRAM is completeley dead, absent or replaced, the unit > will not > start up any more - it gets stuck in the power on test BEFORE the screen > shows any > information. > > Do anyone out there have got UltraBooks or UltraBooks IIi up and running? > Would > highly be interested in a dump of the NVRAM/Timekeeper!!! > > The failed first generation UltraBook are (DS1643 NVRAM): > (*) U20-14-9-512P with three (!!) hard drives, no battery port > (*) U20-14-3-128B two hard drives, battery port > > And my beloved UltraBook IIi (TimeKeeper DS1553-070) > (*) U40-14-1X-1024C one harddrive, battery port and creator graphics. > > Reply here or PM erik(a)baigar.de, > > Thanks > > ''~`` > ( o o ) > +--------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.-------------------------+ > | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | > | Salzstrasse 1 .oooO Vintage Computer | > | D87616 Marktoberdorf ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist / Physicist | > | erik(a)baigar.de +------\ (----( )---------------------------+ > | www.baigar.de | \_) ) / > +----------------------+ (_/ > > > > So advice to all owners: Backup your NVRAM contents and I'd be more than > happy > to get in touch with you! > > Not affected seem to be the PrecisionBooks (e.g. H16-12-8-512L2, two hard- > drives and battery port) as they do not contain an NVRAM/TimeKeeper. > --===============5063535072709413942==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sun Sep 24 15:52:26 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 11:52:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169556948276.4006402.7692462215505111847@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5357733117022604873==" --===============5357733117022604873== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have the same situation, would love to know how to resolve this as well. Bill On Sun, Sep 24, 2023 at 11:31=E2=80=AFAM erik--- via cctalk wrote: > Hi there, > > in the last weeks my last two working UltraBooks died. Today I > investigated the problem > and obviously in these RDI made notebooks, the NVRAMs not only contain the > boot information, > the host ID and the MAC address but also the hardware configuration. > > Hence: Once the NVRAM is completeley dead, absent or replaced, the unit > will not > start up any more - it gets stuck in the power on test BEFORE the screen > shows any > information. > > Do anyone out there have got UltraBooks or UltraBooks IIi up and running? > Would > highly be interested in a dump of the NVRAM/Timekeeper!!! > > The failed first generation UltraBook are (DS1643 NVRAM): > (*) U20-14-9-512P with three (!!) hard drives, no battery port > (*) U20-14-3-128B two hard drives, battery port > > And my beloved UltraBook IIi (TimeKeeper DS1553-070) > (*) U40-14-1X-1024C one harddrive, battery port and creator graphics. > > Reply here or PM erik(a)baigar.de, > > Thanks > > ''~`` > ( o o ) > +--------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.-------------------------+ > | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | > | Salzstrasse 1 .oooO Vintage Computer | > | D87616 Marktoberdorf ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist / Physicist | > | erik(a)baigar.de +------\ (----( )---------------------------+ > | www.baigar.de | \_) ) / > +----------------------+ (_/ > > > > So advice to all owners: Backup your NVRAM contents and I'd be more than > happy > to get in touch with you! > > Not affected seem to be the PrecisionBooks (e.g. H16-12-8-512L2, two hard- > drives and battery port) as they do not contain an NVRAM/TimeKeeper. > --===============5357733117022604873==-- From erik@baigar.de Sun Sep 24 16:11:26 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 16:11:22 +0000 Message-ID: <169557188287.4006402.2072449084904231071@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3967584718422488641==" --===============3967584718422488641== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quite sad and I really hate that type of "limited lifetime" :-( Unfortunate= ly the manufacturer RDI/Cupertino/US was acquired in 1998 by Tadpole and they= dissolved in "General Dynamics" in 2005. The remains are now taken care of b= y Flextronics/Flex, but I do not have got much hope, they will be of help :-( --===============3967584718422488641==-- From erik@baigar.de Sun Sep 24 16:21:15 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 16:21:10 +0000 Message-ID: <169557247027.4006402.5676490018689490713@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6273267202555816958==" --===============6273267202555816958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The more are joining the higher the probability, that we will be able to solv= e it somehow ;-) What kind of UltraBook do you have got? --===============6273267202555816958==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sun Sep 24 16:23:19 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 12:22:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169557247027.4006402.5676490018689490713@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5861157785842046160==" --===============5861157785842046160== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have RDI Powerlite 85's. The box says "RDI/Tadpole" Bill On Sun, Sep 24, 2023 at 12:21=E2=80=AFPM erik--- via cctalk wrote: > The more are joining the higher the probability, that we will be able to > solve it somehow ;-) What kind of UltraBook do you have got? > --===============5861157785842046160==-- From erik@baigar.de Sun Sep 24 16:23:41 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 16:23:38 +0000 Message-ID: <169557261871.4006402.4064510506628126669@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <169556948276.4006402.7692462215505111847@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2683720607949492776==" --===============2683720607949492776== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just checked the datasheets: The NVRAMs of the UltraBooks I know of are the D= S1643 and the DS1553. Both should be similar enough to be read/write by any r= eader that supports the DS1643 or the DS1553. Of course I'd offer creating an= modified Arduino doing the task, to test it and to supply it to anyone who i= s willing to dump his NVRAM!!! --===============2683720607949492776==-- From erik@baigar.de Sun Sep 24 16:33:09 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 16:33:05 +0000 Message-ID: <169557318534.4006402.13484311401810089212@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4990177514150346646==" --===============4990177514150346646== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm, not sure on that one actually. So it does not boot up at all? In the desktop Sun workstations and e.g. the Tadpole SparcBook, a lost NVRAM = at least shows the firmware prompt on the screen (no HOSTID and no ethernet M= AC). So there the situation is not as severe as with the UltraBooks where the= screen remains black/dark and no interaction is possible! --===============4990177514150346646==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun Sep 24 16:37:08 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 17:36:51 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169557261871.4006402.4064510506628126669@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4288200352324230784==" --===============4288200352324230784== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are solutions to the dying DS chips. I have seen replacement with newer ones (but sometimes those have old cells too), surgery to replace the internal cell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZJDlNoJk7M, and replacement with a clone https://www.tindie.com/search/?q=dallas. However the critical thing would be to replace the data with something that doesn't hang on booting (perhaps even incorrect information from another unit would be close). On Sun, Sep 24, 2023 at 5:23 PM erik--- via cctalk wrote: > Just checked the datasheets: The NVRAMs of the UltraBooks I know of are > the DS1643 and the DS1553. Both should be similar enough to be read/write > by any reader that supports the DS1643 or the DS1553. Of course I'd offer > creating an modified Arduino doing the task, to test it and to supply it to > anyone who is willing to dump his NVRAM!!! > --===============4288200352324230784==-- From erik@baigar.de Sun Sep 24 16:48:12 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 16:48:07 +0000 Message-ID: <169557408740.4006402.15653903231354658660@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0472369190761910242==" --===============0472369190761910242== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Exactly that is what I did lot of times with my sparc stations already. But l= ast week, the UltraBook IIi showed for the first time inconsistent NVRAM and = following that, I replaced the NVRAM by one with an external battery but in m= y sillyness I had not saved the contens as I was not aware of the consequence= s :-( So teh main reason for my post is to make other owners aware and getting hand= on the contens of a matching NVRAM!!! --===============0472369190761910242==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sun Sep 24 18:35:55 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 11:28:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169556948276.4006402.7692462215505111847@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4502502544896368130==" --===============4502502544896368130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Do anyone out there have got UltraBooks or UltraBooks IIi up and running? W= ould=20 > highly be interested in a dump of the NVRAM/Timekeeper!!! >=20 > The failed first generation UltraBook are (DS1643 NVRAM): > (*) U20-14-9-512P with three (!!) hard drives, no battery port > (*) U20-14-3-128B two hard drives, battery port >=20 > And my beloved UltraBook IIi (TimeKeeper DS1553-070) > (*) U40-14-1X-1024C one harddrive, battery port and creator graphics. I just got out my own UltraBook IIi to test and while it makes a lot of complaints during POST (which takes a good couple minutes), it does eventually come up into OpenBoot and will start Solaris. I note that it states it seems = to have already lost its NVRAM contents but appears to have spontaneously self-recovered. Typing verbatim from the boot screen, Starting real time clock... Incorrect configuration checksum; Setting NVRAM parameters to default values. Setting diag-switch? NVRAM parameter to true. Reset Control: BXIR:0 BPOR:0 SXIR:0 SPOR:1 POR:0 UltraSPARC-IIi Version 9.1 (E$=3D1MB) 2-2 module Advanced PCI Bridge Version 1.3 Probing Memory Group #0 256 + 256 : 512 Megabytes Probing Memory Group #2 0 + 0 : 0 Megabytes Probing Floppy: No drives detected Probing UPA Slot at 1e,0 Nothing there Probing /pci(a)1f,0/pci(a)1,1 at Device 1 network Probing /pci(a)1f,0/pci(a)1,1 at Device 2 Nothing there Probing /pci(a)1f,0/pci(a)1,1 at Device 4 Nothing there Probing /pci(a)1f,0/pci(a)1,1 at Device 3 ide disk cdrom Probing /pci(a)1f,0/pci(a)1 at Device 1 pcma pcma Probing /pci(a)1f,0/pci(a)1 at Device 2 ATI,3D-Expression Probing /pci(a)1f,0/pci(a)1 at Device 3 scsi disk tape ------ Ultrabook IIi (UltraSPARC-IIi 400MHz), Sun Keyboard ------ OpenBoot 3.10.7 Tadpole-RDI 1.06, 512MB memory, Serial #[censored] ------ Ethernet address [censored], Host ID: [censored]. The IDPROM contents are invalid Creator card not detected Boot device: net File and args: From there it times out, drops to an ok prompt, and I can start Solaris. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- si non confectus, non reficiat -------------------------------------------= -- --===============4502502544896368130==-- From erik@baigar.de Sun Sep 24 18:40:00 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 18:39:55 +0000 Message-ID: <169558079500.4006402.17880494960137240525@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1632146852717664613==" --===============1632146852717664613== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting. So you still have got the hostid and the MAC address which might= indicate, that the contents are not completely lost yet. Maybe just a few bi= ts flipped leading to a wrong checksum (and the diag-switch? being set to tru= e, leading to loooong POST times)? --===============1632146852717664613==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sun Sep 24 18:41:39 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 11:41:30 -0700 Message-ID: <1096cb09-cde2-d97a-1435-81d8063193fc@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: <169558079500.4006402.17880494960137240525@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6247803065684707026==" --===============6247803065684707026== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Interesting. So you still have got the hostid and the MAC address which mig= ht indicate, that the contents are not completely lost yet. Maybe just a few = bits flipped leading to a wrong checksum (and the diag-switch? being set to t= rue, leading to loooong POST times)? Maybe, but it also says "Setting NVRAM parameters to default values." which suggests it has default values stored somewhere to set NVRAM to. I don't know much about these systems' boot process, however. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- It's bad luck to be suspicious. -- Andrew W. Mathis ----------------------= -- --===============6247803065684707026==-- From erik@baigar.de Sun Sep 24 18:56:53 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 18:56:50 +0000 Message-ID: <169558181032.4006402.5618289528236880329@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <1096cb09-cde2-d97a-1435-81d8063193fc@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5898904264325345708==" --===============5898904264325345708== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, but usually that process does only reset the boot flags described in in = the maunal, it does not reset the hardware relevant stuff like the hostID and= MAC (those are lost in the Sparc Stations when the NVRAM is pulled or comple= tely empty). But of course one can not be entirely sure - I ordered a "new" N= VRAM for the UltraBookII just in case it did not like getting pulled and the = battery attached. Upon reading the NVRAM withoug pullig it and using a hardware reader device: = I guess that with the peek commands (see OpenFirmware guide, https://docs.ora= cle.com/cd/E19457-01/801-7042/801-7042.pdf) one can read the NVRAM contents. = Of course no idea how to find the memory address where it is located. The adr= ess space is huge compared to the 8k of the NVRAM... --===============5898904264325345708==-- From erik@baigar.de Sun Sep 24 19:22:44 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 19:22:40 +0000 Message-ID: <169558336075.4006402.12362210063858327455@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <169558181032.4006402.5618289528236880329@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5970432036577344503==" --===============5970432036577344503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm, did littel reading in the OpenFirmware manual I linked above. There is = an example how to use show-devs for listing the existing devices. The example= contains... /virtual-memory(a)0,0 /memory(a)0,0 /counter-timer(a)1,f3000000 /eeprom(a)1,f2000000 /openprom So being lucky, the hex numbers given are the physical (non-mapped) address o= f memory, eeprom and counter-timer (=3DNVRAM). A check would be using the fir= mware's read commands to see if there is information starting at f3000000 and= more specific whether the locations f3001ff9 - 73001fff show any change (tha= t is the location where the real time clock should appear if there is a NVRAM= at this location. --===============5970432036577344503==-- From stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com Sun Sep 24 19:39:08 2023 From: Stephen Pereira To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Vintage Computer Systems for sale Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 15:38:52 -0400 Message-ID: <1933D487-8C67-49A3-BB29-B0B9D79C5C4F@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1681678416404178523==" --===============1681678416404178523== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good afternoon to all, I am starting the process of selling off some of my vintage computer systems,= so as to not burden anyone I leave behind. The systems I list here are available for viewing in Bedford, NH, just west o= f Manchester, NH. Anyone interested can send me an e-mail message and we can= set up an appointment for you to visit. Cash and Carry, of course, and reas= onable offers will be considered. Altair 8800c =E2=80=94 $2500 I constructed this system early in 2019. I built the front panel and front p= anel interface boards, and soldered up the backplane. The rest of the boards= were purchased assembled and tested. You can see the Altair 8800c story her= e: https://deramp.com/altair.html The system is fully tested and working, c= urrently using virtual Altair disk drives via the Deramp application. Plenty= of documentation. Single 8 inch disk drive in a dual drive cabinet =E2=80=94 $500 This physical disk drive has been paired with the Altair 8800c in the past. = Works fine. I included will be an 8 inch disk drive that used to be in this = cabinet until the power supply failed. I believe this drive can be repaired.= Included will be another 8 inch drive that is the wrong form factor to fit = into the cabinet. Purchased on eBay, untested. Altair 680 =E2=80=94 $2000 I acquired this system on eBay back at the end of 2018. It was not working, = but a bit of troubleshooting discovered bad ram which was replaced. The leas= t significant LED of the address display does not light, but I=E2=80=99ve tes= ted that the proper signals are there. I simply did not want to risk changin= g out the LED. This system comes with the 4-slot riser, but the connectors a= re not yet soldered in. No add-in boards. Plenty of documentation. Complete SWTPC 6800 clone system from Corsham Technologies =E2=80=94 $400 I acquired this system from Bob at Corsham in the middle of 2018. It is the = complete setup, with the full 64K ram and the virtual disk drives. Documenta= tion available at Corsham Technologies: http://www.corshamtech.com Northstar Horizon =E2=80=94 $800 I purchased this system on eBay as a running system. From time to time I had= problems with the top 8K ram on the Horizon 64K ram board. The 64k ram boar= d has been replaced with a Compupro Ram 17 (or clone), works great, no proble= ms. I will include the glitchy Horizon 64K ram board. FYI, a Deramp Virtual= Sector Generator works great with this system, eliminating the need for hard= sector diskettes. https://deramp.com/vsg.html Thanks for listening! smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE --===============1681678416404178523==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sun Sep 24 20:26:30 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 20:26:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169557261871.4006402.4064510506628126669@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4832481825140790850==" --===============4832481825140790850== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Once upon a time DS... was (other things apart) Dallas, then Maxim, now Analo= g Devices. Mouser says DS 1553 & DS1643 are obsolete. However, there appears to be afte= rmarket activity: - https://www.radwell.co.uk/en-GB/Search/?q=3Dds1553=20 - https://www.radwell.co.uk/en-GB/Search/?q=3Dds1643 - which implies purchase & DIY possibilities ... Seems to be the sort of part under discussion HtH, Martin -----Original Message----- From: erik--- via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 24 September 2023 17:24 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: erik(a)baigar.de Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs= rescue... Just checked the datasheets: The NVRAMs of the UltraBooks I know of are the D= S1643 and the DS1553. Both should be similar enough to be read/write by any r= eader that supports the DS1643 or the DS1553. Of course I'd offer creating an= modified Arduino doing the task, to test it and to supply it to anyone who i= s willing to dump his NVRAM!!! --===============4832481825140790850==-- From erik@baigar.de Sun Sep 24 20:35:48 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 20:35:44 +0000 Message-ID: <169558774489.4006402.3596849900761500697@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <169558336075.4006402.12362210063858327455@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3200536858456984479==" --===============3200536858456984479== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Played a little around - and the OpenFirmware's "dump" command on my older Sp= arcBook 3GX (so no Ultra, but 4m architecture) is able to dump virtual memory= . Obeying to the forth syntax, the following command... 1000 100 dump ...dumps 256 bytes starting at address 1000. Of course, reading undefined (= =3Dunmapped) memory leads to an access violation. But as the firmware manual = describes, devices can be selected and than it is possible to dump their io-s= pace and I bet somewhere in there, the NVRAM is hidden. At ffee0000 I see pop= ulated memory in the 3GX - the dumpable range starts at ffee0000 and ends at = ffefffff (in total 128k). So having a running UltraBook that would be the way= to seach for the NVRAM? --===============3200536858456984479==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Sep 24 21:22:50 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Systems for sale Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 14:22:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1933D487-8C67-49A3-BB29-B0B9D79C5C4F@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5564665439403937760==" --===============5564665439403937760== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen, You have a terrific website. It's very well presented and a nice resource for homebrew computing circa the mid-1970s. Sellam --===============5564665439403937760==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Sun Sep 24 22:00:20 2023 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 22:00:14 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169558774489.4006402.3596849900761500697@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8698737272897587008==" --===============8698737272897587008== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an older one and it seems like, I recall, openboot has a name for the = nvram. possible caMel or similar. Dwight ________________________________ From: erik--- via cctalk Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2023 1:35 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: erik(a)baigar.de Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs= rescue... Played a little around - and the OpenFirmware's "dump" command on my older Sp= arcBook 3GX (so no Ultra, but 4m architecture) is able to dump virtual memory= . Obeying to the forth syntax, the following command... 1000 100 dump ...dumps 256 bytes starting at address 1000. Of course, reading undefined (= =3Dunmapped) memory leads to an access violation. But as the firmware manual = describes, devices can be selected and than it is possible to dump their io-s= pace and I bet somewhere in there, the NVRAM is hidden. At ffee0000 I see pop= ulated memory in the 3GX - the dumpable range starts at ffee0000 and ends at = ffefffff (in total 128k). So having a running UltraBook that would be the way= to seach for the NVRAM? --===============8698737272897587008==-- From stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com Mon Sep 25 15:11:55 2023 From: Stephen Pereira To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Systems for sale Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 11:11:38 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4941915221578525609==" --===============4941915221578525609== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry Sellam, none of the websites I mentioned for information are mine. smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE --===============4941915221578525609==-- From stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com Mon Sep 25 21:29:24 2023 From: Stephen Pereira To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Vintage Computer Systems for sale Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 19:35:29 +0000 Message-ID: <43E9AB6D-E0C0-4724-BB04-76BFA87EF62E@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8839998969407061282==" --===============8839998969407061282== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good afternoon to all, I am starting the process of selling off some of my vintage computer systems,= so as to not burden anyone I leave behind. The systems I list here are available for viewing in Bedford, NH, just west o= f Manchester, NH. Anyone interested can send me an e-mail message and we can= set up an appointment for you to visit. Cash and Carry, of course, and reas= onable offers will be considered. Altair 8800c =E2=80=94 $2500 I constructed this system early in 2019. I built the front panel and front p= anel interface boards, and soldered up the backplane. The rest of the boards= were purchased assembled and tested. You can see the Altair 8800c story her= e: https://deramp.com/altair.html The system is fully tested and working, c= urrently using virtual Altair disk drives via the Deramp application. Plenty= of documentation. Single 8 inch disk drive in a dual drive cabinet =E2=80=94 $500 This physical disk drive has been paired with the Altair 8800c in the past. = Works fine. I included will be an 8 inch disk drive that used to be in this = cabinet until the power supply failed. I believe this drive can be repaired.= Included will be another 8 inch drive that is the wrong form factor to fit = into the cabinet. Purchased on eBay, untested. Altair 680 =E2=80=94 $2000 I acquired this system on eBay back at the end of 2018. It was not working, = but a bit of troubleshooting discovered bad ram which was replaced. The leas= t significant LED of the address display does not light, but I=E2=80=99ve tes= ted that the proper signals are there. I simply did not want to risk changin= g out the LED. This system comes with the 4-slot riser, but the connectors a= re not yet soldered in. No add-in boards. Plenty of documentation. Complete SWTPC 6800 clone system from Corsham Technologies =E2=80=94 $400 I acquired this system from Bob at Corsham in the middle of 2018. It is the = complete setup, with the full 64K ram and the virtual disk drives. Documenta= tion available at Corsham Technologies: http://www.corshamtech.com Northstar Horizon =E2=80=94 $800 I purchased this system on eBay as a running system. From time to time I had= problems with the top 8K ram on the Horizon 64K ram board. The 64k ram boar= d has been replaced with a Compupro Ram 17 (or clone), works great, no proble= ms. I will include the glitchy Horizon 64K ram board. FYI, a Deramp Virtual= Sector Generator works great with this system, eliminating the need for hard= sector diskettes. https://deramp.com/vsg.html Thanks for listening! smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE --===============8839998969407061282==-- From js@cimmeri.com Mon Sep 25 23:04:35 2023 From: js@cimmeri.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FTGH: (3) Qualstar 1260 9 track tape drives pertec interface Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 18:03:05 -0500 Message-ID: <2bf5addf-6a10-ff7d-86c0-22f35e2712ef@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1114970716116200668==" --===============1114970716116200668== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 2 units working when properly stored a few years ago.  1 unit, parts unit. Must take all 3. Tested successfully only with a PC and a VAX. Located in Frederick, Maryland, USA --===============1114970716116200668==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Sep 25 23:48:53 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Systems for sale Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 16:48:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6261186810726191171==" --===============6261186810726191171== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 8:12 AM Stephen Pereira via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sorry Sellam, none of the websites I mentioned for information are mine. > > smp > - - - > Stephen Pereira > No worries, but the way you wrote your message seems to imply that those are your websites, and that the machines you're selling are depicted therein. You might want to clarify this. Sellam --===============6261186810726191171==-- From shumaker@att.net Tue Sep 26 01:37:54 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FTGH: (3) Qualstar 1260 9 track tape drives pertec interface Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 18:37:43 -0700 Message-ID: <62098786-737d-938a-f04c-2136b53ffa85@att.net> In-Reply-To: <2bf5addf-6a10-ff7d-86c0-22f35e2712ef@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5665636025553137806==" --===============5665636025553137806== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do you know of a source for drivers and software for the PC environment for this equipment?  I was recently given a 1054 which is supposedly the same system with a SCSI interface.  I've yet to find anything online.  Any suggestions would be most appreciated! Steve On 9/25/23 4:03 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > 2 units working when properly stored a few years ago.  1 unit, parts > unit. > > Must take all 3. > > Tested successfully only with a PC and a VAX. > > Located in Frederick, Maryland, USA --===============5665636025553137806==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue Sep 26 02:10:18 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FTGH: (3) Qualstar 1260 9 track tape drives pertec interface Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 02:00:24 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <62098786-737d-938a-f04c-2136b53ffa85@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8411263071485942457==" --===============8411263071485942457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Do you know of a source for drivers and software for the PC environment > for this equipment? I was recently given a 1054 which is supposedly the > same system with a SCSI interface. I've yet to find anything online. > Any suggestions would be most appreciated! The version with SCSI (it's a SCSI to Pertec bridge inside) works fine under = Linux with the usual SCSI tape driver and `mt`. Thanks, Jonathan --===============8411263071485942457==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Sep 26 03:28:06 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FTGH: (3) Qualstar 1260 9 track tape drives pertec interface Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 20:27:55 -0700 Message-ID: <066d6a25-e06b-3407-3f27-a3a647d22af0@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <62098786-737d-938a-f04c-2136b53ffa85@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8170356778526557091==" --===============8170356778526557091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/25/23 18:37, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > Do you know of a source for drivers and software for the PC environment > for this equipment?  I was recently given a 1054 which is supposedly the > same system with a SCSI interface.  I've yet to find anything online.  > Any suggestions would be most appreciated! It's SCSI; implements the basic ANSI SCSI command set for tape devices. So you need a SCSI controller, the proper cables and terminator, and, depending on your operating system, you might also need a driver (DOS uses an ASPI driver for Adaptec controllers, for example). Linux knows about most SCSI adapters and will instantiate an /dev/mtx device if it sees the drive. There are various backup packages for SCSI tapes for the various Microsoft offerings. FWIW, there is a non-SCSI 1260 drive as well (Pertec interface). Properly, the SCSI 1260 is a 1260S. Personally, I don't much care for the Qualstar drives; for 6250, they don't really develop enough tape speed to get a good signal; at 1600, they're barely passable. But, I suppose, better than nothing. --Chuck --===============8170356778526557091==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Tue Sep 26 06:25:29 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC VT36 Color Graphics Display Control System Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 08:25:13 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0753911646343472384==" --===============0753911646343472384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, who knows details about the DEC VT36 Color Graphics Display Control System ( https://classic.technology/vt36-color-graphics-display-control-system/)? I'm looking for manuals for the VT36 as well as for the associated VAX-11/PROVUE or RSX-11/PROVUE software. Anyone with personal experience with the VT36 and/or PROVUE? Ulli --===============0753911646343472384==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Tue Sep 26 14:17:14 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FTGH: (3) Qualstar 1260 9 track tape drives pertec interface Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 09:11:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <62098786-737d-938a-f04c-2136b53ffa85@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8223884037484026292==" --===============8223884037484026292== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Overland data Pertec controllers, ISA, AT and PCI interfaces with utilities for the Pertec interface drives. As Chuck mentioned, the 1260S is the SCSI version. I use one of a stack of DL360 systems for the SCSI / Linux combo. has worked well, and is less fuss than building up a system and adding an Adaptec these days. thanks jim On 9/25/23 20:37, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > I've yet to find anything online. --===============8223884037484026292==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Sep 26 15:13:05 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FTGH: (3) Qualstar 1260 9 track tape drives pertec interface Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 08:12:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3d8947ff-2809-939e-6a57-23cb1830627e@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8285289398210898926==" --===============8285289398210898926== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/26/23 07:11, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > Overland data Pertec controllers, ISA, AT and PCI interfaces with > utilities for the Pertec interface drives. I also posted plans and software for a Pertec tape controller using an MCU with U SB or serial for comms and control. Data is stored on mcriSD card. You can find details on Github. I run mine with a 32GB SD card; it works just fine. --Chuck --===============8285289398210898926==-- From erik@baigar.de Wed Sep 27 18:19:15 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 18:19:12 +0000 Message-ID: <169583875212.4006402.16725229890896828316@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB6941FCD47802414AAB3A57B1A3FDA=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0160023056040495859==" --===============0160023056040495859== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did some experiments in removing/swapping NVRAMs and none of my UltraBooks is= reaching the OpenFirmware or even turning on the backlight/LCD, so I have no= way of trying to read the NVRAM contents from there :-( Symptoms (i.e. behaviour of the LCD display) of the UltraBooks differ with co= ntents of NVRAM or if there is no NVRAM at all. So without some known-valid N= VRAM contents I fear I am lost :-( Symtpoms I see: Power symbols coming up always then (a) only tock-tock from s= peaker (b) blank, only the inverse A flashing several times, later a single t= ime again and then blank forever (c) heart beat and speaker flashing, later t= he inverse A coming on as well. Can anyone out there at least tell me what their LCDis showing during startup? I will archive the contents of the NVRAMs as they are now although they are p= robably not of much use... --===============0160023056040495859==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Wed Sep 27 18:58:42 2023 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FTGH: (3) Qualstar 1260 9 track tape drives pertec interface Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 14:58:24 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3d8947ff-2809-939e-6a57-23cb1830627e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2205333447568184113==" --===============2205333447568184113== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck - is this the one?: https://github.com/Tubatstuff/Pertec-Interface-Tape-Controller =] -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 11:13 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 9/26/23 07:11, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > Overland data Pertec controllers, ISA, AT and PCI interfaces with > > utilities for the Pertec interface drives. > > I also posted plans and software for a Pertec tape controller using an > MCU with U SB or serial for comms and control. Data is stored on mcriSD > card. You can find details on Github. > > I run mine with a 32GB SD card; it works just fine. > > --Chuck > > > --===============2205333447568184113==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Wed Sep 27 18:59:21 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 14:59:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169583875212.4006402.16725229890896828316@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7277245348064280388==" --===============7277245348064280388== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Erik, I just happen to have mine out and took a quick video of boot up. Mine does not have a floppy drive or hard drive (I don't have a caddy) so it boots pretty quickly to the "ok" prompt but you can see the LCD display and when the LCD comes up. Here's a quick video. https://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Tadpole/Ultrabook-boot.mp4 On another note: Still hoping to find an Ultrabook hard drive caddy if anyone has a spare or even internal pictures to see if it has any smarts or if it's just an EIDE drive that goes pin-for-pin to the internal 40 pin SCSI-5 connector. I've been checking eBay for years now :( Hope this helps, Santo On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 2:19 PM erik--- via cctalk wrote: > Did some experiments in removing/swapping NVRAMs and none of my UltraBooks > is reaching the OpenFirmware or even turning on the backlight/LCD, so I > have no way of trying to read the NVRAM contents from there :-( > > Symptoms (i.e. behaviour of the LCD display) of the UltraBooks differ with > contents of NVRAM or if there is no NVRAM at all. So without some > known-valid NVRAM contents I fear I am lost :-( > > Symtpoms I see: Power symbols coming up always then (a) only tock-tock > from speaker (b) blank, only the inverse A flashing several times, later a > single time again and then blank forever (c) heart beat and speaker > flashing, later the inverse A coming on as well. > > Can anyone out there at least tell me what their LCDis showing during > startup? > > I will archive the contents of the NVRAMs as they are now although they > are probably not of much use... > --===============7277245348064280388==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Wed Sep 27 19:00:55 2023 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FTGH: (3) Qualstar 1260 9 track tape drives pertec interface Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 15:00:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8820719400799513808==" --===============8820719400799513808== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yup, right there in /doc. -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 2:58 PM Anders Nelson wrote: > Chuck - is this the one?: > > https://github.com/Tubatstuff/Pertec-Interface-Tape-Controller > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > www.andersknelson.com > > > On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 11:13 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 9/26/23 07:11, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> > Overland data Pertec controllers, ISA, AT and PCI interfaces with >> > utilities for the Pertec interface drives. >> >> I also posted plans and software for a Pertec tape controller using an >> MCU with U SB or serial for comms and control. Data is stored on mcriSD >> card. You can find details on Github. >> >> I run mine with a 32GB SD card; it works just fine. >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> --===============8820719400799513808==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Sep 27 19:14:40 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 19:14:23 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169583875212.4006402.16725229890896828316@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0571322040630293240==" --===============0571322040630293240== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable /me hears mention of dead NVRAMs and materializes Pulled out my UltraBook IIe today, it's fine with a dead NVRAM, just gives yo= u the usual "IDPROM contents are invalid" message you see on Suns. If I'd have to guess, based on past experience, you likely have a counterfeit= DS1553W or you ordered the DS1553 without the W suffix. The W means 3.3V par= t. On a 3.3V system, the DS1553 5V part will never release write lock-out; fu= rthermore, the DS1553 has a power-on reset comparator and will never de-asser= t reset either! I don't know if the UltraBooks use this reset output, but if = I were designing a system and using the DS1553/W, I certainly would. A missing DS1742W in a SGI Tezro stops it dead, as does a DS1742 5V part (W s= uffix is, again, 3.3V). Part of what took so long on my designing a replaceme= nt for the DS1742W was the sacrificial modules that were sent to me were...wa= it for it...Chinese counterfeits! The part numbers from the dissected modules= were all 5V parts!=20 Now the good news is, I can probably make replacements for the DS1553W. I alr= eady have a prototype replacement for the DS1643, some customer must've neede= d it for a one-off as I've never run more, but that should already be a solve= d problem. I have one or two GW-1643-1 prototypes on hand for testing. Thanks, Jonathan --===============0571322040630293240==-- From travispierce70@gmail.com Wed Sep 27 19:42:42 2023 From: Travis Pierce To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FTGH: (3) Qualstar 1260 9 track tape drives pertec interface Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 13:42:25 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9220357030049310682==" --===============9220357030049310682== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm a bit late to the ballgame, but I use Depot 4 - which is available for download from Curious Marc. https://www.curiousmarc.com/computing/overland-tape-drive On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 1:00=E2=80=AFPM Anders Nelson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Yup, right there in /doc. > -- > Anders Nelson > www.andersknelson.com > > > On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 2:58=E2=80=AFPM Anders Nelson > wrote: > > > Chuck - is this the one?: > > > > https://github.com/Tubatstuff/Pertec-Interface-Tape-Controller > > > > =3D] > > -- > > Anders Nelson > > www.andersknelson.com > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 11:13=E2=80=AFAM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On 9/26/23 07:11, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > >> > Overland data Pertec controllers, ISA, AT and PCI interfaces with > >> > utilities for the Pertec interface drives. > >> > >> I also posted plans and software for a Pertec tape controller using an > >> MCU with U SB or serial for comms and control. Data is stored on mcriSD > >> card. You can find details on Github. > >> > >> I run mine with a 32GB SD card; it works just fine. > >> > >> --Chuck > >> > >> > >> > --===============9220357030049310682==-- From cube1@charter.net Wed Sep 27 19:43:33 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Shelves / Rails for DEC Racks Questions Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 11:25:54 -0500 Message-ID: <573afc59-0118-698a-4d86-28b7a064de18@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0740110522525924946==" --===============0740110522525924946== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have some open slots in some of my racks.  I do have some old DEC rails, but I have a fair amount of equipment, from both DEC and other manufacturers, for which those rails are not suitable. Does anyone have any specific recommendations for shelving? (where equipment could just be slid on top of, if the equipment isn't too wide - some pieces are very close to 19 inches all by themselves, and were designed for front cantilever style mounting.) Would also be interested in specific recommendations for the following: DEC VR14 (I have one on a PDP-12 with proper rails, but have another to mount and don't have proper rails for it) HP 88780 (Perhaps a shelf is the best bet for these?) JRJ --===============0740110522525924946==-- From erik@baigar.de Wed Sep 27 20:00:25 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 20:00:16 +0000 Message-ID: <169584481672.4006402.5719702524756553186@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8956108570702004050==" --===============8956108570702004050== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Santo, thanks for your efforts in taking the vid that looks different from= my behaviour on all UltraBooks!=20 Drive Caddy: They are silly devices - no smart stuff. I can take pictures on = the weekend and make a wiring chart if you want. I have a 160GB drive, WD1600BEVE for the OS. Erik. --===============8956108570702004050==-- From erik@baigar.de Wed Sep 27 20:03:37 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 20:03:33 +0000 Message-ID: <169584501373.4006402.10171324318231415465@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CA1mvTzg=5FBcXIfFmyVP4yp-cMkUJOKVl5ogWZEFOJFKX=5Fhd?= =?utf-8?q?o=5F5RPILYIKlRp5kQhGMP-6AewGvPfICpArd1btdoy6f=5F1OX21W9GWufL5ktBw?= =?utf-8?q?=3D=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7946882188389085537==" --===============7946882188389085537== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jonathan, thanks for your thoughs. I am still using the same NVRAM, just w= ith external battery attached, so no Chineese counterfeit. My hypothesis is: With the battery losing voltage, some bits flip first. They= cause the error message you see and values get set to proper values. But the= re are some bytes which must not flip because they determine e.g. the type of= graphics, processor, speed, RAM timing etc. If one of these bits flips first= , than one is lost because the machine does not reach the OpenBoot firmware b= ecause it tries to test non-existing hardware etc. etc. --===============7946882188389085537==-- From erik@baigar.de Wed Sep 27 20:07:00 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 20:06:56 +0000 Message-ID: <169584521631.4006402.12292423202805389477@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CA1mvTzg=5FBcXIfFmyVP4yp-cMkUJOKVl5ogWZEFOJFKX=5Fhd?= =?utf-8?q?o=5F5RPILYIKlRp5kQhGMP-6AewGvPfICpArd1btdoy6f=5F1OX21W9GWufL5ktBw?= =?utf-8?q?=3D=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6558166895171726965==" --===============6558166895171726965== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jonathan! > Now the good news is, I can probably make replacements > for the DS1553W. I already have a prototype replacement > for the DS1643 Interesting - did you youse some modern technology for doing that? I already thought to attach a logic analyzer to the NVRAM to see which bytes are read first (e.g. for dtermining the hardware configuration). --===============6558166895171726965==-- From ethan@757.org Wed Sep 27 20:14:48 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 16:14:44 -0400 Message-ID: <2ba724cb-862d-45f5-84ad-bdfa175d16d@757.org> In-Reply-To: <169584521631.4006402.12292423202805389477@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1338039466271467578==" --===============1338039466271467578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Interesting - did you youse some modern technology for > doing that? I already thought to attach a logic analyzer to the > NVRAM to see which bytes are read first (e.g. for dtermining > the hardware configuration). Late to the convo, but it's interesting. You might be able to dump the ROMs and find someone who knows Sparc assembly to run it through a debugger/emulator and trace it? Hard part would probably be knowing where the NVRAM lives in memory space (memory map.) Maybe the MAME people would have an idea? Some of the old arcade games suffer from the exact same issue - they store variables in the ST Microelectronics Timekeepers and once it dies game won't boot due to a byte or two. MAME has SPARC emulation. Other thing is people with a working Tadpoles needs to dump their NVRAMS ASAP because it sounds like all of them are about to quit working? -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============1338039466271467578==-- From erik@baigar.de Wed Sep 27 20:20:14 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 20:20:10 +0000 Message-ID: <169584601029.4006402.3401734647600317152@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <2ba724cb-862d-45f5-84ad-bdfa175d16d@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4636563259887572464==" --===============4636563259887572464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ethan - yes, I think that may be a severe issue and getting hands on a dum= p/making users aware was already in my first post and therefore it is also ti= tled "species needs rescue" ;-) Never looked into MAME - if they run the OpenBoot firmware, that would indeed= be an opion! Thanks for the hint... --===============4636563259887572464==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Wed Sep 27 20:22:04 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 16:21:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2ba724cb-862d-45f5-84ad-bdfa175d16d@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5457968820135084894==" --===============5457968820135084894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Speaking of dumping... Is it possible to read a Dallas DS1643 in programmer? That's what's in my Ultrabook. I just tried with a Topmax II that supports it and I get all zeros. :( Santo On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 4:14 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Interesting - did you youse some modern technology for > > doing that? I already thought to attach a logic analyzer to the > > NVRAM to see which bytes are read first (e.g. for dtermining > > the hardware configuration). > > Late to the convo, but it's interesting. > > You might be able to dump the ROMs and find someone who knows Sparc > assembly to run it through a debugger/emulator and trace it? Hard part > would probably be knowing where the NVRAM lives in memory space (memory > map.) > > Maybe the MAME people would have an idea? Some of the old arcade games > suffer from the exact same issue - they store variables in the ST > Microelectronics Timekeepers and once it dies game won't boot due to a > byte or two. > > MAME has SPARC emulation. > > Other thing is people with a working Tadpoles needs to dump their NVRAMS > ASAP because it sounds like all of them are about to quit working? > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > --===============5457968820135084894==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Sep 27 20:35:24 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 20:35:04 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6423516388964356952==" --===============6423516388964356952== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Speaking of dumping... >=20 > Is it possible to read a Dallas DS1643 in programmer? That's what's in my > Ultrabook. I just tried with a Topmax II that supports it and I get all > zeros. :( You probably need to make a shim socket and pull pin 26 to VCC (pin 28), then= read it as a DS1225. I'd also pull pin 27 (*WE) to VCC to avoid errant write= s. Thanks, Jonathan --===============6423516388964356952==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Sep 27 20:37:24 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 20:37:07 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169584521631.4006402.12292423202805389477@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2343142080152899754==" --===============2343142080152899754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Interesting - did you youse some modern technology for > doing that? Modern "special sauce" replacements from Dallas/Maxim/Analog/etc., plus a fas= t, low-power SRAM, all packaged on a circuit board with Batten & Allen DIP le= adframe pins, like this: https://users.glitchwrks.com/~glitch/2018/03/17/gw-1244-1 (note that the Phantom RTC chip used in that is *not* what would be needed fo= r Sun-style NVRAMs) Thanks, Jonathan --===============2343142080152899754==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Sep 27 20:39:23 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 20:39:01 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169584501373.4006402.10171324318231415465@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0481682739319857953==" --===============0481682739319857953== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Hi Jonathan, thanks for your thoughs. I am still using the same NVRAM, just= with external battery attached, so no Chineese counterfeit. > My hypothesis is: With the battery losing voltage, some bits flip first. Th= ey cause the error message you see and values get set to proper values. But t= here are some bytes which must not flip because they determine e.g. the type = of graphics, processor, speed, RAM timing etc. If one of these bits flips fir= st, than one is lost because the machine does not reach the OpenBoot firmware= because it tries to test non-existing hardware etc. etc. I wouldn't think that's possible, the small portion of NVRAM used to set para= meters is checksummed, so it's unlikely a random combination would also resul= t in a correct checksum. Still, to rule that out, try blanking the NVRAM by writing all zeroes to it. = You may be able to do that with something like a TL866+ and a shim socket -- = don't just plug the DS1553 right in, as it's got two output pins that may cau= se a conflict! Thanks, Jonathan --===============0481682739319857953==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Sep 27 20:53:31 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Shelves / Rails for DEC Racks Questions Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 16:53:03 -0400 Message-ID: <2C8BE230-51D1-4D65-9D8B-98E210DB22CA@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <573afc59-0118-698a-4d86-28b7a064de18@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6635776514568884392==" --===============6635776514568884392== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 27, 2023, at 12:25 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I have some open slots in some of my racks. I do have some old DEC rails, = but I have a fair amount of equipment, from both DEC and other manufacturers,= for which those rails are not suitable. >=20 > Does anyone have any specific recommendations for shelving? (where equipmen= t could just be slid on top of, if the equipment isn't too wide - some pieces= are very close to 19 inches all by themselves, and were designed for front c= antilever style mounting.) Rack makers sell these; for example https://www.budind.com/racks-cabinets-acc= essories/ or https://www.dell.com/en-us/search/server%20rack%20shelves but I = would expect any number of places that produce racks have them. I have an H960 and needed a solution for a 3U 19 storage array that can attac= h in the front but needs more support and doesn't mate up with the H960 rear = rails. So rather than spend significant money on a shelf, I just installed a= pair of angle irons from front to back (vertical flange down) and set the ar= ray on that. Since it's close to 19 inches wide, that simple solution fully = supports it. For a heavy oscilloscope I wanted to install as well, I did something similar= : angle iron supporting a sheet of plywood. In that case, it has some additi= onal angle irons running across, to keep the plywood from bowing under the lo= ad. =20 paul --===============6635776514568884392==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Wed Sep 27 21:13:39 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 17:13:20 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CUs5iAY6KWwrZEDnr59JmPEJpupzb7-=5F=5Fi8Z0NwajKpZt7H?= =?utf-8?q?fzNXMu=5Fkbm-=5FruByzzlrH8OhxzCxwxUGUMb4BXQQxp4mbbwmE5VQI3baZUkSU?= =?utf-8?q?=3D=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8347232548213343870==" --===============8347232548213343870== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Jonathan. I'm not sure this is correct as I needed to select a DS1643 after I tied pin 26 and pin 27 to pin 28 (and cut 26 and 27 in a chip socket/adapter) but I did manage to dump it. It is very small though. All zeros until data starts at 0x1800. Would you have an idea if this is accurate? Reading as a DS1225 got all zeros. https://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Tadpole/Ultrabook2-8528496.bin Maybe if Eric can write this to his Dallas chip, he might be in business if it's good? Santo On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 4:35 PM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Speaking of dumping... > > > > Is it possible to read a Dallas DS1643 in programmer? That's what's in my > > Ultrabook. I just tried with a Topmax II that supports it and I get all > > zeros. :( > > You probably need to make a shim socket and pull pin 26 to VCC (pin 28), > then read it as a DS1225. I'd also pull pin 27 (*WE) to VCC to avoid errant > writes. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > --===============8347232548213343870==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Thu Sep 28 04:02:15 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Theory of operation of DEC H7441 regulator? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:01:50 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8159988515250449705==" --===============8159988515250449705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The DEC H7441 regulator is a relatively complex circuit using 2 x 555 timers, 2 x LM301 op-amps, 2 x transformers and 2 inductors I am struggling to understand how it is meant to work and was hoping to find a maintenance manual for it. Could anyone with such a manual please help? Alternatively is there another explanation of the operation of this or similar types of circuits? The circuit implements a switch mode supply. One of the two 555 timers operates as an oscillator, the second I think operates as a monoflop with the pulse length controlled via one of the LM301s. Overall the circuit seems very complex and while I understand parts of it, other parts are mysterious. In particular the top left section around Q1/Q2/Q3 and T1/T2 and E3 is most confusing. I did not find anything remotely similar in "The Art of Electronics" from Horowitz & Winfield. The H7441 schematics are available from here: https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporatio= n/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/02%20PDP-1134A%20Power%20Supply/H7441%20FMPS= %20MP00271%20part-1%20(H7441).pdf Thanks for any help or suggested reading material. Tom --===============8159988515250449705==-- From len@shustek.com Thu Sep 28 05:05:01 2023 From: Len Shustek To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Free Fujitsu M2444 6250 BPI tape drive Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 21:34:36 -0700 Message-ID: <7.1.0.9.2.20230927213436.07c92268@shustek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1002184743747956660==" --===============1002184743747956660== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I bought this giant GCR tape drive on eBay five years ago, http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/_brochures/M244X_Brochure_1984.pdf hoping to be able to use it to extract analog signals from 6250 BPI tapes to feed into my decoding program. https://github.com/LenShustek/readtape I failed to figure out how to get the right signals out, and eventually abandoned the project. I now need the space it takes, so I'm offering it for free before consigning it to the landfill. It's big (20" x 24" x 30" on the wheeled stand I built) and heavy (160 lbs) so I won't ship it. Pickup only, on the San Francisco peninsula. --===============1002184743747956660==-- From erik@baigar.de Thu Sep 28 05:54:10 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 05:54:07 +0000 Message-ID: <169588044706.4006402.9852544327935069486@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CGJX=5FNQiyjQeislq5B6yTbsZKLq1fHbCwIlXMwtmCLVU-2Crb?= =?utf-8?q?f=5FrMW7FYxY8F5QDu-tMk7aUp87e4Es07JwF1tua3jvYqrPoklGAaH5baH5c=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4902077207195378354==" --===============4902077207195378354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable @Jonathan: Wow, amazing project in creating the replacement NVRAM. You reall= y spent lot of time and efforts into that one. To attach the external battery= I took a X-Ray to know where to have access to the battery pins most easily = - was just 1 hour of work but far less cool of course! Thanks for sharing! @Santo: MANY thanks for dumping your NVRAM - looks interesting. I must admit = that the plenty of 55 and AA look like lot of bits flipped from zero to 1 alr= eady (that is what happens with many memory chips) but yes, the lower section= is all zeros. I will give that one a try in the next opportunity! By the way= : What type of UltraBook was that from precisely (U14.....?)? --===============4902077207195378354==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Sep 28 06:00:19 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free Fujitsu M2444 6250 BPI tape drive Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 23:00:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7.1.0.9.2.20230927213436.07c92268@shustek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9107906367221927142==" --===============9107906367221927142== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can recommend this drive. Very solid units and used on a lot of Sun installations, which usually included the extra 256K buffer option. Yes, it's heavy, particularly if you install it in an EIA rack--you should have the heavy-duty mounting kit for it. I picked mine up as a new unit--surplused as a defective unit from Intel. Turns out that the AC power jumpers were set wrong. Sometimes you get lucky... --Chuck On 9/27/23 21:34, Len Shustek via cctalk wrote: > I bought this giant GCR tape drive on eBay five years ago, > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/_brochures/M244X_Brochure_1984.pdf > hoping to be able to use it to extract analog signals from 6250 BPI > tapes to feed into my decoding program. > https://github.com/LenShustek/readtape > > I failed to figure out how to get the right signals out, and eventually > abandoned the project. I now need the space it takes, so I'm offering it > for free before consigning it to the landfill. It's big (20" x 24" x 30" > on the wheeled stand I built) and heavy (160 lbs) so I won't ship it. > Pickup only, on the San Francisco peninsula. --===============9107906367221927142==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Thu Sep 28 07:29:22 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Theory of operation of DEC H7441 regulator? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 00:29:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4441817719753224201==" --===============4441817719753224201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-Sep-27, at 9:01 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > The DEC H7441 regulator is a relatively complex circuit using 2 x 555 > timers, 2 x LM301 op-amps, 2 x transformers and 2 inductors > I am struggling to understand how it is meant to work and was hoping to > find a maintenance manual for it. >=20 > Could anyone with such a manual please help? >=20 > Alternatively is there another explanation of the operation of this or > similar types of circuits? > The circuit implements a switch mode supply. >=20 > One of the two 555 timers operates as an oscillator, the second I think > operates as a monoflop with the pulse length controlled via one of the > LM301s. > Overall the circuit seems very complex and while I understand parts of it, > other parts are mysterious. >=20 > In particular the top left section around Q1/Q2/Q3 and T1/T2 and E3 is most > confusing. >=20 > I did not find anything remotely similar in "The Art of Electronics" from > Horowitz & Winfield. >=20 > The H7441 schematics are available from here: >=20 > https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporat= ion/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/02%20PDP-1134A%20Power%20Supply/H7441%20FM= PS%20MP00271%20part-1%20(H7441).pdf >=20 > Thanks for any help or suggested reading material. I'll take a stab at a brief description: The basic form is that of a switching inductive buck/step-down regulator. L1 is the main bucking inductor. D12 is the inductor discharge diode for the bucking operation. Q1 and Q2 are the main switching transistors, operating in parallel with T2 i= n their emitter circuits to balance current through the two transistors. Q3 is a driver stage for Q1,Q2. C11,L2,C16 are the main output filter. Fixed-frequency oscillator E1 triggers variable-width monostable E2 via Q6 to= create the PWM switching pulses. Q8 and associated form a constant-current source for the timing capacitor C10= of this PWM-monostable, to linearize the charge curve of the capacitor for b= etter operation of the pulse-width timing. The switching pulses from the PWM-mono are amplified by Q5 to drive T1. T1 provides galvanic (voltage) isolation to shift the pulses up to the higher= operating voltage of Q1,Q2,Q3. All base-drive energy for Q1 and Q2 is delivered through Q3 from T1, thus Q5 = driving T1 must itself be a reasonably hefty driver. Excessive current through Q5 produces a V-drop across R10 which may turn on Q= 7 to take the PWM-mono into reset (E2.4=3Dlow). D7,D8,R3 clamp and sink reverse voltage/energy from the T1 secondary to avoid= reverse breakdown/damage to Q1,Q2,Q3. Op-amp E4 is the voltage-sense amplifier for the main regulation feedback loo= p. D18 and associated provide the master reference voltage. An increase in the sensed +5 output voltage presented at -input E4.2 relative= to the reference voltage at +input E4.3 lowers the voltage into the PWM-mono= control input E2.5 to shorten the ON-width of the switching pulses, and vice= -versa for a decrease in the +5 output. Op-amp E3 is running open-loop to function as a comparator for over-current s= ense. R17,R18 are the current-sense resistors, placed here in the negative supply l= ine of the +5 main output. If the current-induced voltage drop across R17,R18 becomes high enough, E3 tr= ips high, turning on Q7 to take the PWM-mono into reset. R19,R20 provide the counter-bias V that the R17,R18 V-drop must overcome to t= rip E3. E3 tripping high also turns on Q9 to short the reference voltage to GND at E4= .3, to minimize the ON-width of the switching pulses. D20,D21,D22 form a crowbar for the +5 output. The crowbar tripping performs two actions: shorting the +5 output via D19, as= well as shorting the switching pulses at the base of Q5 via D23 so the suppl= y doesn't keep pumping energy into the shorted output. D2,Q4 and associated form a simple linear regulator for internal supply of ~ = +12V to the control electronics. C7,D17,D25,C8 are a little charge pump driven off oscillator E1 to create a n= egative V supply for the op-amps E3,E4. --===============4441817719753224201==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Thu Sep 28 07:49:11 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Theory of operation of DEC H7441 regulator? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 00:49:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1589874158613321290==" --===============1589874158613321290== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-Sep-28, at 12:29 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > ... > Excessive current through Q5 produces a V-drop across R10 which may turn on= Q7 to take the PWM-mono into reset (E2.4=3Dlow). > D7,D8,R3 clamp and sink reverse voltage/energy from the T1 secondary to avo= id reverse breakdown/damage to Q1,Q2,Q3. ^^ correction: that should be R7, not R3. --===============1589874158613321290==-- From erik@baigar.de Thu Sep 28 09:08:32 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 09:08:29 +0000 Message-ID: <169589210937.4006402.6374086351157420527@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <169557318534.4006402.13484311401810089212@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4120817981553365863==" --===============4120817981553365863== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Hmmm, not sure on that one actually. So it does not boot up at all? Yes - exactly! > In the desktop Sun workstations and e.g. the Tadpole SparcBook, a lost NVRA= M at least > shows the firmware prompt on the screen (no HOSTID and no ethernet MAC). Yes, that is different in the UltraBooks. There is very likely some deep hard= ware specific stuff in the NVRAM. In Tafpoles, SparcStations and similar (I h= ave some of them) there is NEVER a sticker with the serial numer on the NVRAM= , but in the UltraBooks there is. That is also anindication for me, that the = NVRAM is paired to the hardware. > situation is not as severe as with the UltraBooks where the screen remains = black/dark and > no interaction is possible! Exactly - and therefore I fear, that all the UltraBooks will die, once the re= levant bytes get lost. Mine operated for some years with the "Invalid NVRAM" = message until I attached the battery to the NVRAM and herein completely erase= d it because it was completely without power for some time (old battery was d= own to 0.426V). --===============4120817981553365863==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Thu Sep 28 10:55:53 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Theory of operation of DEC H7441 regulator? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 18:55:27 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6595607355923861375==" --===============6595607355923861375== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you very much Brent !!! Your explanation beautifully clarified how the H7441 works. I have asked the same question over at vcfed.org without an answer.. I hope it is Ok to share to vcfed.org what you wrote as others are likely to struggle too with the complexity of the H7441 in the future and vcfed.org is searchable. Thanks again for your time and effort to explain what I really struggled to understand. Tom On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 3:29=E2=80=AFPM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2023-Sep-27, at 9:01 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > The DEC H7441 regulator is a relatively complex circuit using 2 x 555 > > timers, 2 x LM301 op-amps, 2 x transformers and 2 inductors > > I am struggling to understand how it is meant to work and was hoping to > > find a maintenance manual for it. > > > > Could anyone with such a manual please help? > > > > Alternatively is there another explanation of the operation of this or > > similar types of circuits? > > The circuit implements a switch mode supply. > > > > One of the two 555 timers operates as an oscillator, the second I think > > operates as a monoflop with the pulse length controlled via one of the > > LM301s. > > Overall the circuit seems very complex and while I understand parts of > it, > > other parts are mysterious. > > > > In particular the top left section around Q1/Q2/Q3 and T1/T2 and E3 is > most > > confusing. > > > > I did not find anything remotely similar in "The Art of Electronics" from > > Horowitz & Winfield. > > > > The H7441 schematics are available from here: > > > > > https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporat= ion/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/02%20PDP-1134A%20Power%20Supply/H7441%20FM= PS%20MP00271%20part-1%20(H7441).pdf > > > > Thanks for any help or suggested reading material. > > > > I'll take a stab at a brief description: > > The basic form is that of a switching inductive buck/step-down regulator. > > L1 is the main bucking inductor. > D12 is the inductor discharge diode for the bucking operation. > Q1 and Q2 are the main switching transistors, operating in parallel with > T2 in their emitter circuits to balance current through the two transistors. > Q3 is a driver stage for Q1,Q2. > C11,L2,C16 are the main output filter. > > Fixed-frequency oscillator E1 triggers variable-width monostable E2 via Q6 > to create the PWM switching pulses. > Q8 and associated form a constant-current source for the timing capacitor > C10 of this PWM-monostable, to linearize the charge curve of the capacitor > for better operation of the pulse-width timing. > > The switching pulses from the PWM-mono are amplified by Q5 to drive T1. > T1 provides galvanic (voltage) isolation to shift the pulses up to the > higher operating voltage of Q1,Q2,Q3. > All base-drive energy for Q1 and Q2 is delivered through Q3 from T1, thus > Q5 driving T1 must itself be a reasonably hefty driver. > Excessive current through Q5 produces a V-drop across R10 which may turn > on Q7 to take the PWM-mono into reset (E2.4=3Dlow). > D7,D8,R3 clamp and sink reverse voltage/energy from the T1 secondary to > avoid reverse breakdown/damage to Q1,Q2,Q3. > > Op-amp E4 is the voltage-sense amplifier for the main regulation feedback > loop. > D18 and associated provide the master reference voltage. > An increase in the sensed +5 output voltage presented at -input E4.2 > relative to the reference voltage at +input E4.3 lowers the voltage into > the PWM-mono control input E2.5 to shorten the ON-width of the switching > pulses, and vice-versa for a decrease in the +5 output. > > Op-amp E3 is running open-loop to function as a comparator for > over-current sense. > R17,R18 are the current-sense resistors, placed here in the negative > supply line of the +5 main output. > If the current-induced voltage drop across R17,R18 becomes high enough, E3 > trips high, turning on Q7 to take the PWM-mono into reset. > R19,R20 provide the counter-bias V that the R17,R18 V-drop must overcome > to trip E3. > E3 tripping high also turns on Q9 to short the reference voltage to GND at > E4.3, to minimize the ON-width of the switching pulses. > > D20,D21,D22 form a crowbar for the +5 output. > The crowbar tripping performs two actions: shorting the +5 output via D19, > as well as shorting the switching pulses at the base of Q5 via D23 so the > supply doesn't keep pumping energy into the shorted output. > > D2,Q4 and associated form a simple linear regulator for internal supply of > ~ +12V to the control electronics. > C7,D17,D25,C8 are a little charge pump driven off oscillator E1 to create > a negative V supply for the op-amps E3,E4. > > --===============6595607355923861375==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Thu Sep 28 11:41:50 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 11:41:38 +0000 Message-ID: <57bpK1lfeIJkBHa5QkSXuyXB0xHKrg-M35t9GZg6BT0g59zIQDTvqgviRX43PtF1cZPFTP7ZvEYRyg6_RAQdVD3LF_YZ9dASYVgyufHLUd8=@glitchwrks.com> In-Reply-To: <169589210937.4006402.6374086351157420527@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3045040319222055368==" --===============3045040319222055368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yet we have a few datapoints showing that a dead NVRAM/RTC still boot UltraBo= oks just fine! As I said, I personally confirmed with my UltraBook IIe. Prett= y sure the NVRAM is dead in my SPARCbook too, I can confirm that today. Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 28th, 2023 at 05:08, erik--- via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > > Hmmm, not sure on that one actually. So it does not boot up at all? >=20 >=20 > Yes - exactly! >=20 > > In the desktop Sun workstations and e.g. the Tadpole SparcBook, a lost NV= RAM at least > > shows the firmware prompt on the screen (no HOSTID and no ethernet MAC). >=20 >=20 > Yes, that is different in the UltraBooks. There is very likely some deep ha= rdware specific stuff in the NVRAM. In Tafpoles, SparcStations and similar (I= have some of them) there is NEVER a sticker with the serial numer on the NVR= AM, but in the UltraBooks there is. That is also anindication for me, that th= e NVRAM is paired to the hardware. >=20 > > situation is not as severe as with the UltraBooks where the screen remain= s black/dark and > > no interaction is possible! >=20 >=20 > Exactly - and therefore I fear, that all the UltraBooks will die, once the = relevant bytes get lost. Mine operated for some years with the "Invalid NVRAM= " message until I attached the battery to the NVRAM and herein completely era= sed it because it was completely without power for some time (old battery was= down to 0.426V). --===============3045040319222055368==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Thu Sep 28 11:59:05 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 07:58:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169588044706.4006402.9852544327935069486@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9086281205585159431==" --===============9086281205585159431== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My Ultrabook is a U20-14-1X-128C3. Hope that helps, Santo On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 1:54 AM erik--- via cctalk wrote: > @Jonathan: Wow, amazing project in creating the replacement NVRAM. You > really spent lot of time and efforts into that one. To attach the external > battery I took a X-Ray to know where to have access to the battery pins > most easily - was just 1 hour of work but far less cool of course! Thanks > for sharing! > > @Santo: MANY thanks for dumping your NVRAM - looks interesting. I must > admit that the plenty of 55 and AA look like lot of bits flipped from zero > to 1 already (that is what happens with many memory chips) but yes, the > lower section is all zeros. I will give that one a try in the next > opportunity! By the way: What type of UltraBook was that from precisely > (U14.....?)? > --===============9086281205585159431==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Thu Sep 28 12:49:19 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:48:52 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C57bpK1lfeIJkBHa5QkSXuyXB0xHKrg-M35t9GZg6BT0g59zIQD?= =?utf-8?q?TvqgviRX43PtF1cZPFTP7ZvEYRyg6=5FRAQdVD3LF=5FYZ9dASYVgyufHLUd8=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2190772985916006970==" --===============2190772985916006970== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Booted the SPARCbook 3, its battery is in fact dead, and aside from taking a = little longer to come up (totally expected) it's fine. Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 28th, 2023 at 07:41, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Yet we have a few datapoints showing that a dead NVRAM/RTC still boot Ultra= Books just fine! As I said, I personally confirmed with my UltraBook IIe. Pre= tty sure the NVRAM is dead in my SPARCbook too, I can confirm that today. >=20 > Thanks, > Jonathan >=20 > ------- Original Message ------- > On Thursday, September 28th, 2023 at 05:08, erik--- via cctalk cctalk(a)cla= ssiccmp.org wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > Hmmm, not sure on that one actually. So it does not boot up at all? > >=20 > > Yes - exactly! > >=20 > > > In the desktop Sun workstations and e.g. the Tadpole SparcBook, a lost = NVRAM at least > > > shows the firmware prompt on the screen (no HOSTID and no ethernet MAC). > >=20 > > Yes, that is different in the UltraBooks. There is very likely some deep = hardware specific stuff in the NVRAM. In Tafpoles, SparcStations and similar = (I have some of them) there is NEVER a sticker with the serial numer on the N= VRAM, but in the UltraBooks there is. That is also anindication for me, that = the NVRAM is paired to the hardware. > >=20 > > > situation is not as severe as with the UltraBooks where the screen rema= ins black/dark and > > > no interaction is possible! > >=20 > > Exactly - and therefore I fear, that all the UltraBooks will die, once th= e relevant bytes get lost. Mine operated for some years with the "Invalid NVR= AM" message until I attached the battery to the NVRAM and herein completely e= rased it because it was completely without power for some time (old battery w= as down to 0.426V). --===============2190772985916006970==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Thu Sep 28 14:04:17 2023 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Theory of operation of DEC H7441 regulator? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 10:03:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3234678864656777883==" --===============3234678864656777883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This guy bucks. I'm much less an analog guy, but that explanation was clear enough to make sense of every stage. Very cool! -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Thu, Sep 28, 2023, 3:29 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2023-Sep-27, at 9:01 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > The DEC H7441 regulator is a relatively complex circuit using 2 x 555 > > timers, 2 x LM301 op-amps, 2 x transformers and 2 inductors > > I am struggling to understand how it is meant to work and was hoping to > > find a maintenance manual for it. > > > > Could anyone with such a manual please help? > > > > Alternatively is there another explanation of the operation of this or > > similar types of circuits? > > The circuit implements a switch mode supply. > > > > One of the two 555 timers operates as an oscillator, the second I think > > operates as a monoflop with the pulse length controlled via one of the > > LM301s. > > Overall the circuit seems very complex and while I understand parts of > it, > > other parts are mysterious. > > > > In particular the top left section around Q1/Q2/Q3 and T1/T2 and E3 is > most > > confusing. > > > > I did not find anything remotely similar in "The Art of Electronics" from > > Horowitz & Winfield. > > > > The H7441 schematics are available from here: > > > > > https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporat= ion/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/02%20PDP-1134A%20Power%20Supply/H7441%20FM= PS%20MP00271%20part-1%20(H7441).pdf > > > > Thanks for any help or suggested reading material. > > > > I'll take a stab at a brief description: > > The basic form is that of a switching inductive buck/step-down regulator. > > L1 is the main bucking inductor. > D12 is the inductor discharge diode for the bucking operation. > Q1 and Q2 are the main switching transistors, operating in parallel with > T2 in their emitter circuits to balance current through the two transistors. > Q3 is a driver stage for Q1,Q2. > C11,L2,C16 are the main output filter. > > Fixed-frequency oscillator E1 triggers variable-width monostable E2 via Q6 > to create the PWM switching pulses. > Q8 and associated form a constant-current source for the timing capacitor > C10 of this PWM-monostable, to linearize the charge curve of the capacitor > for better operation of the pulse-width timing. > > The switching pulses from the PWM-mono are amplified by Q5 to drive T1. > T1 provides galvanic (voltage) isolation to shift the pulses up to the > higher operating voltage of Q1,Q2,Q3. > All base-drive energy for Q1 and Q2 is delivered through Q3 from T1, thus > Q5 driving T1 must itself be a reasonably hefty driver. > Excessive current through Q5 produces a V-drop across R10 which may turn > on Q7 to take the PWM-mono into reset (E2.4=3Dlow). > D7,D8,R3 clamp and sink reverse voltage/energy from the T1 secondary to > avoid reverse breakdown/damage to Q1,Q2,Q3. > > Op-amp E4 is the voltage-sense amplifier for the main regulation feedback > loop. > D18 and associated provide the master reference voltage. > An increase in the sensed +5 output voltage presented at -input E4.2 > relative to the reference voltage at +input E4.3 lowers the voltage into > the PWM-mono control input E2.5 to shorten the ON-width of the switching > pulses, and vice-versa for a decrease in the +5 output. > > Op-amp E3 is running open-loop to function as a comparator for > over-current sense. > R17,R18 are the current-sense resistors, placed here in the negative > supply line of the +5 main output. > If the current-induced voltage drop across R17,R18 becomes high enough, E3 > trips high, turning on Q7 to take the PWM-mono into reset. > R19,R20 provide the counter-bias V that the R17,R18 V-drop must overcome > to trip E3. > E3 tripping high also turns on Q9 to short the reference voltage to GND at > E4.3, to minimize the ON-width of the switching pulses. > > D20,D21,D22 form a crowbar for the +5 output. > The crowbar tripping performs two actions: shorting the +5 output via D19, > as well as shorting the switching pulses at the base of Q5 via D23 so the > supply doesn't keep pumping energy into the shorted output. > > D2,Q4 and associated form a simple linear regulator for internal supply of > ~ +12V to the control electronics. > C7,D17,D25,C8 are a little charge pump driven off oscillator E1 to create > a negative V supply for the op-amps E3,E4. > > --===============3234678864656777883==-- From erik@baigar.de Thu Sep 28 14:13:21 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 14:13:17 +0000 Message-ID: <169591039709.4006402.10840537456169085408@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CEO=5FXM1QvPS5guZKC3rOeQG-uc9GREy-yN4ERr9=5FnWOwNOW?= =?utf-8?q?rI6snYJYIpy7usvrg7NXS2lHJFqyPB7eVQGL6UCsazpGC5LgRoxyXkd90QQbA=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0836190871907334715==" --===============0836190871907334715== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jonathan, will try that soon and I have got GALEP3 and a TopMax, so readin= g a 1643 with pins left out should be easy. Zeroing is a good idea for the be= ginning - just needing some content there that brings me to the Firmware ;-) --===============0836190871907334715==-- From rollerton@gmail.com Thu Sep 28 15:17:43 2023 From: Robert Ollerton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free Fujitsu M2444 6250 BPI tape drive Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 08:17:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3245585301095213886==" --===============3245585301095213886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i'm looking for cables for this if anyone has one to spare or a lead where to find em. much thanks bob. On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 11:00 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I can recommend this drive. Very solid units and used on a lot of Sun > installations, which usually included the extra 256K buffer option. > Yes, it's heavy, particularly if you install it in an EIA rack--you > should have the heavy-duty mounting kit for it. > > I picked mine up as a new unit--surplused as a defective unit from > Intel. Turns out that the AC power jumpers were set wrong. Sometimes > you get lucky... > > --Chuck > > > > On 9/27/23 21:34, Len Shustek via cctalk wrote: > > I bought this giant GCR tape drive on eBay five years ago, > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/_brochures/M244X_Brochure_1984.pdf > > hoping to be able to use it to extract analog signals from 6250 BPI > > tapes to feed into my decoding program. > > https://github.com/LenShustek/readtape > > > > I failed to figure out how to get the right signals out, and eventually > > abandoned the project. I now need the space it takes, so I'm offering it > > for free before consigning it to the landfill. It's big (20" x 24" x 30" > > on the wheeled stand I built) and heavy (160 lbs) so I won't ship it. > > Pickup only, on the San Francisco peninsula. > > --===============3245585301095213886==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Sep 28 15:39:27 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free Fujitsu M2444 6250 BPI tape drive Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 08:39:17 -0700 Message-ID: <651ae940-8566-17c0-6f40-b9db8660f4be@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1221136794342757184==" --===============1221136794342757184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/28/23 08:17, Robert Ollerton wrote: > i'm looking for cables for this if anyone has one to spare or a lead > where to find em. > What are you connecting to at the far end? The drive connections are simple 2x50 pin IDC (ribbon) headers. I made my own--took me about 15 minutes. I used Spectra-Twist cable--about 10' for each. The power cable connector is a bit unusual, but I'm sure it's available. --Chuck --===============1221136794342757184==-- From erik@baigar.de Thu Sep 28 17:22:50 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 17:22:46 +0000 Message-ID: <169592176604.4006402.13186671897055929189@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0769221035405201386==" --===============0769221035405201386== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Santo, as promised I took pictures of the caddy of UltraBook and UltraBook= II (it is the same). The harddrives are slim PATA notebook drives and I ran = (until failure) 10GB...160GB drives in the UltraBooks. CAUTION: Fitting a PATA SSD did not work for me - somehow they are probably t= o fast for at least Solaris 2.6. Here a thorough documentation of caddy and the electrical connections (withou= t warranty): http://www.baigar.de/UltraBook/UltraBook-HDDcaddy-EBaigar-20230928.pdf CAUTION: The plug listed there probably is, what you find within the Notebook= s, so it should fit the adapter (again no warrranty!). For those interested: Here a X-Ray of the DS1553 I used for quickly finding t= he battery pins for connecting an external battery:=20 http://www.baigar.de/UltraBook/DS1553WrongOrientation20230923_121643.jpg Hope to report Saturday on the NVRAM results and vacation after that until 10= /6/2023.. --===============0769221035405201386==-- From erik@baigar.de Thu Sep 28 18:25:44 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 18:25:40 +0000 Message-ID: <169592554072.4006402.1236781651062060704@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <2ba724cb-862d-45f5-84ad-bdfa175d16d@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6227119204356306821==" --===============6227119204356306821== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ethan, thanks for suggesting MAME - did some research and somehow I do not= think it emulates UltraSparc but only 32bit Sarc. But saw, that QEMU has a U= ltraSparc emulation and they... https://www.qemu.org/docs/master/system/target-sparc64.html ...explicitly claim that a NVRAM is emulated, although they are doing a M48T5= 9 there is at least some chance that the memory address can be found in the Q= EMU sources. Will take a look in the next weeks ;-) --===============6227119204356306821==-- From kiwi_jonathan@yahoo.com Thu Sep 28 18:30:30 2023 From: Jonathan Stone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free Fujitsu M2444 6250 BPI tape drive Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 18:30:22 +0000 Message-ID: <2114653040.8523527.1695925822128@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <7.1.0.9.2.20230927213436.07c92268@shustek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8842490850242595120==" --===============8842490850242595120== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, has this found a new home? If not, Is it Pertec-compatible? I live on the Peninsula and I have a pickup truck. I'll find it a hom if the = alternative is landfill. thanks -Jonatahn Stone On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 10:05:04 PM PDT, Len Shustek via cct= alk wrote: =20 =20 I bought this giant GCR tape drive on eBay five years ago, http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/_brochures/M244X_Brochure_1984.pdf hoping to be able to use it to extract analog signals from 6250 BPI=20 tapes to feed into my decoding program. https://github.com/LenShustek/readtape I failed to figure out how to get the right signals out, and=20 eventually abandoned the project. I now need the space it takes, so=20 I'm offering it for free before consigning it to the landfill. It's=20 big (20" x 24" x 30" on the wheeled stand I built) and heavy (160=20 lbs) so I won't ship it. Pickup only, on the San Francisco peninsula. =20 --===============8842490850242595120==-- From ethan@757.org Thu Sep 28 18:34:44 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 14:34:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169592554072.4006402.1236781651062060704@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5677321528763971130==" --===============5677321528763971130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Awesome! Didn't realize MAME ws limited to 32-Bit SPARC. But the emulators can definitely be handy, or at least get you partly there! - Ethan > Hi Ethan, thanks for suggesting MAME - did some research and somehow I > do not think it emulates UltraSparc but only 32bit Sarc. But saw, that > QEMU has a UltraSparc emulation and they... > > https://www.qemu.org/docs/master/system/target-sparc64.html > > ...explicitly claim that a NVRAM is emulated, although they are doing a > M48T59 there is at least some chance that the memory address can be > found in the QEMU sources. Will take a look in the next weeks ;-) > -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============5677321528763971130==-- From erik@baigar.de Thu Sep 28 18:46:31 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 18:46:28 +0000 Message-ID: <169592678801.4006402.17978315521142096141@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <2ba724cb-862d-45f5-84ad-bdfa175d16d@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6105995318298628543==" --===============6105995318298628543== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah - reading the source code of QEMU I found the structure of the NVRAM -=20 EVEN BETTER there was a WEB page with a good description of the various NVRAM= s on Sun machines up to Ultra1. Yes, there "was". =20 FORTUNATELY via archive.org, that page can be accessed - Tadaaaaaaaa- here it= is: https://web.archive.org/web/20151107014449/http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/s= un-nvram-hostid.faq.html HOT: As I suspected: The first byte of the hostID in some systems defines the= machine type.=20 PERFECT: There are also commands given to read/write the NVRAM from the firmw= are. Thanks Ethan, the hint to check the emulation was great! --===============6105995318298628543==-- From len@shustek.com Thu Sep 28 21:28:58 2023 From: Len Shustek To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free Fujitsu M2444 6250 BPI tape drive Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 13:58:11 -0700 Message-ID: <7.1.0.9.2.20230928135811.07a58848@shustek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3122424572426933110==" --===============3122424572426933110== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The drive is saved from the landfill! It was picked up by a classic computing fan at noon this morning. (And yes, it is Pertec-compatible.) --===============3122424572426933110==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Sep 29 02:17:40 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Teletypes for sale Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 20:24:47 -0500 Message-ID: <8f48c51e-d6d1-ab41-d2f9-bfc6e23f335f@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <7.1.0.9.2.20230928135811.07a58848@shustek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5892747584152158730==" --===============5892747584152158730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey folks. I need to re-home a bunch of cool old Teletype Corporation=20 machines. Working condition unknown, and also have some spare parts. I=20 am not out to make a mint, so make offer! They seem mostly complete, in=20 varying condition. Some are nicer than others. They all worked when=20 stored (years ago) The following need to find new homes: TT Model 28 ASR (3 of these) TT Model 28 KSR (2 of these) TT Model 28 RO (2 of these) Extra Model 28 Parts TT Model 28 Floor Standing Paper Punch TT Model 32 Baudot TT Model 35 KSR (heavy duty version of the ASR-33) TT Model 35 ASR (Floor stand heavy duty, 2 of these, one Telex) TT Model 40 Dataspeed Teletype manuals and documentation for each model Tell your friends! Delivery is possible. I can assist with loading.=20 Message me for details. Located in the Midwest (Missouri) https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerclub/permalink/730714426598554= 3/ --===============5892747584152158730==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Fri Sep 29 04:44:30 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Teletypes for sale Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 04:44:20 +0000 Message-ID: <830109154.4588826.1695962660207@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <8f48c51e-d6d1-ab41-d2f9-bfc6e23f335f@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8264963019921061455==" --===============8264963019921061455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We would=C2=A0 love the asr 35sWHAT SHAPE ARE THEY IN? Alas smecc museum is in AZWonder how we could manage this?Ed Sharpe archivist= for SMECC museum. Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 7:17 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: =20 Hey folks. I need to re-home a bunch of cool old Teletype Corporation=20 machines. Working condition unknown, and also have some spare parts. I=20 am not out to make a mint, so make offer! They seem mostly complete, in=20 varying condition. Some are nicer than others. They all worked when=20 stored (years ago) The following need to find new homes: TT Model 28 ASR (3 of these) TT Model 28 KSR (2 of these) TT Model 28 RO (2 of these) Extra Model 28 Parts TT Model 28 Floor Standing Paper Punch TT Model 32 Baudot TT Model 35 KSR (heavy duty version of the ASR-33) TT Model 35 ASR (Floor stand heavy duty, 2 of these, one Telex) TT Model 40 Dataspeed Teletype manuals and documentation for each model Tell your friends! Delivery is possible. I can assist with loading.=20 Message me for details. Located in the Midwest (Missouri) https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerclub/permalink/730714426598554= 3/ =20 --===============8264963019921061455==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Fri Sep 29 04:59:27 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Theory of operation of DEC H7441 regulator? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 21:59:21 -0700 Message-ID: <22D76215-1C66-49DA-92B0-4DA1556934AB@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2023567318285663443==" --===============2023567318285663443== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-Sep-28, at 3:55 AM, Tom Hunter wrote: > Thank you very much Brent !!! >=20 > Your explanation beautifully clarified how the H7441 works. > I have asked the same question over at vcfed.org without an answer.. > I hope it is Ok to share to vcfed.org what you wrote as others are likely t= o struggle too with the complexity of the H7441 in the future and vcfed.org i= s searchable. >=20 > Thanks again for your time and effort to explain what I really struggled to= understand. >=20 > Tom Great. With the basic form identified, if you're unfamiliar with buck converters, I'= m sure the AofE you mentioned (I've heard of the book but never seen it) must= have some discussion of their operation. --===============2023567318285663443==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Fri Sep 29 06:09:36 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 14:56:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169592678801.4006402.17978315521142096141@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4843415362231742017==" --===============4843415362231742017== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Erik, do you have any of the documentation for the Ultrabook? Attached are the NVRAM settings for the Ultrabook found in the "Ultrabook Hardware Reference Guide". Also attached is an NVRAM recovery procedure that Sun put out on the Ultrabook. Santo On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 2:46=E2=80=AFPM erik--- via cctalk wrote: > Yeah - reading the source code of QEMU I found the structure of the NVRAM > - > > EVEN BETTER there was a WEB page with a good description of the various > NVRAMs on Sun machines up to Ultra1. Yes, there "was". > > FORTUNATELY via archive.org, that page can be accessed - Tadaaaaaaaa- > here it is: > > https://web.archive.org/web/20151107014449/http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel= /sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html > > HOT: As I suspected: The first byte of the hostID in some systems defines > the machine type. > > PERFECT: There are also commands given to read/write the NVRAM from the > firmware. > > Thanks Ethan, the hint to check the emulation was great! > --===============4843415362231742017==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Fri Sep 29 06:09:46 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 15:06:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4045101842921779093==" --===============4045101842921779093== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In addition to my last message, I forgot to add the second page of NVRAM settings. Attached. Santo On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 2:56=E2=80=AFPM Santo Nucifora wrote: > Erik, do you have any of the documentation for the Ultrabook? > > Attached are the NVRAM settings for the Ultrabook found in the > "Ultrabook Hardware Reference Guide". Also attached is an NVRAM recovery > procedure that Sun put out on the Ultrabook. > > Santo > > On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 2:46=E2=80=AFPM erik--- via cctalk > wrote: > >> Yeah - reading the source code of QEMU I found the structure of the NVRAM >> - >> >> EVEN BETTER there was a WEB page with a good description of the various >> NVRAMs on Sun machines up to Ultra1. Yes, there "was". >> >> FORTUNATELY via archive.org, that page can be accessed - Tadaaaaaaaa- >> here it is: >> >> https://web.archive.org/web/20151107014449/http://www.squirrel.com/squirre= l/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html >> >> HOT: As I suspected: The first byte of the hostID in some systems defines >> the machine type. >> >> PERFECT: There are also commands given to read/write the NVRAM from the >> firmware. >> >> Thanks Ethan, the hint to check the emulation was great! >> > --===============4045101842921779093==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Sep 29 13:11:01 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Teletypes for sale - redux with pics on google drive and contact info. Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 08:10:50 -0500 Message-ID: <047c09b3-2fda-6a52-7f2a-78675b45ed9a@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <830109154.4588826.1695962660207@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0172683986694343944==" --===============0172683986694343944== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey folks. I need to re-home a bunch of cool old Teletype Corporation machines. Working condition unknown, and also have some spare parts. I am not out to make a mint, so make offer! They seem mostly complete, in varying condition. Some are nicer than others. They all worked when stored (years ago) The following need to find new homes: TT Model 28 ASR (3 of these) TT Model 28 KSR (2 of these) TT Model 28 RO (2 of these) Extra Model 28 Parts TT Model 28 Floor Standing Paper Punch TT Model 32 Baudot TT Model 35 KSR (heavy duty version of the ASR-33) TT Model 35 ASR (Floor stand heavy duty, 2 of these, one Telex) TT Model 40 Dataspeed Teletype manuals and documentation for each model Tell your friends! Delivery is possible. I can assist with loading. Message me for details. Located in the Midwest (Missouri) Pictures:=20 https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iWKntZTwws1Qdk6JPEh4f7BjbP0of62t?usp= =3Dsharing Contact: Mat at Mobile Techinical Services, (217) 690-9239 (mobiletechserv(a)gmail.com) --===============0172683986694343944==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 13:34:21 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] GEAC Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 09:33:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0979447151510669182==" --===============0979447151510669182== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's a question for all our Computer Museum curators. Have any of the old GEAC Library systems ever been salvaged and put into a museum?  They were curious boxes and I think would make a nice addition to a collection. bill --===============0979447151510669182==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Sep 29 13:38:15 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: GEAC Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 09:38:01 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55803CEEBBE19BBC94FF9275EDC0A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8570416840799027163==" --===============8570416840799027163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Are you referring to GE/PAC RTMOS? On Fri, Sep 29, 2023 at 9:34 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Here's a question for all our Computer Museum curators. > > > Have any of the old GEAC Library systems ever been salvaged and put into > > a museum? They were curious boxes and I think would make a nice addition > > to a collection. > > > bill > > > --===============8570416840799027163==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Fri Sep 29 13:39:42 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: GEAC Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 09:39:24 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1514850670477886236==" --===============1514850670477886236== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe Bill is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geac_Computer_Corporation -Henry On Fri, 29 Sept 2023 at 09:38, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Are you referring to GE/PAC RTMOS? > > > On Fri, Sep 29, 2023 at 9:34=E2=80=AFAM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Here's a question for all our Computer Museum curators. > > > > > > Have any of the old GEAC Library systems ever been salvaged and put into > > > > a museum? They were curious boxes and I think would make a nice addition > > > > to a collection. > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > --===============1514850670477886236==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 13:43:36 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: GEAC Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 09:42:43 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1955132581568188523==" --===============1955132581568188523== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/29/2023 9:39 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > I believe Bill is referring to > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geac_Computer_Corporation > > -Henry > > On Fri, 29 Sept 2023 at 09:38, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > >> Are you referring to GE/PAC RTMOS? >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 29, 2023 at 9:34=E2=80=AFAM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Here's a question for all our Computer Museum curators. >>> >>> >>> Have any of the old GEAC Library systems ever been salvaged and put into >>> >>> a museum? They were curious boxes and I think would make a nice addition >>> >>> to a collection. Yes, we had one at the University of Scranton until it was replaced by=C2=A0 = a software only solution running on VAX/VMS. bill --===============1955132581568188523==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 17:59:43 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Teletypes for sale - redux with pics on google drive and contact info. Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 17:59:35 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <047c09b3-2fda-6a52-7f2a-78675b45ed9a@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7281237069255256882==" --===============7281237069255256882== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike you should post this on the classic computer discord under teletypes.=20 Do you want an invite to the discord or do you already have one? The teletype discord is fairly active lately. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 29, 2023, at 06:11, Mike Katz via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHey folks. I need to re-home a bunch of cool old Teletype Corporat= ion > machines. Working condition unknown, and also have some spare parts. I > am not out to make a mint, so make offer! They seem mostly complete, in > varying condition. Some are nicer than others. They all worked when > stored (years ago) The following need to find new homes: > TT Model 28 ASR (3 of these) > TT Model 28 KSR (2 of these) > TT Model 28 RO (2 of these) > Extra Model 28 Parts > TT Model 28 Floor Standing Paper Punch > TT Model 32 Baudot > TT Model 35 KSR (heavy duty version of the ASR-33) > TT Model 35 ASR (Floor stand heavy duty, 2 of these, one Telex) > TT Model 40 Dataspeed > Teletype manuals and documentation for each model > Tell your friends! Delivery is possible. I can assist with loading. > Message me for details. Located in the Midwest (Missouri) >=20 > Pictures: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iWKntZTwws1Qdk6JPEh4f7Bjb= P0of62t?usp=3Dsharing >=20 > Contact: >=20 > Mat at Mobile Techinical Services, (217) 690-9239 (mobiletechserv(a)gmail.c= om) >=20 --===============7281237069255256882==-- From cube1@charter.net Fri Sep 29 18:11:34 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Shelves / Rails for DEC Racks Questions Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 13:11:26 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2C8BE230-51D1-4D65-9D8B-98E210DB22CA@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6419196795518527282==" --===============6419196795518527282== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/27/2023 3:53 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Sep 27, 2023, at 12:25 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have some open slots in some of my racks. I do have some old DEC rails,= but I have a fair amount of equipment, from both DEC and other manufacturers= , for which those rails are not suitable. >> >> Does anyone have any specific recommendations for shelving? (where equipme= nt could just be slid on top of, if the equipment isn't too wide - some piece= s are very close to 19 inches all by themselves, and were designed for front = cantilever style mounting.) > Rack makers sell these; for example https://www.budind.com/racks-cabinets-a= ccessories/ or https://www.dell.com/en-us/search/server%20rack%20shelves but = I would expect any number of places that produce racks have them. > > I have an H960 and needed a solution for a 3U 19 storage array that can att= ach in the front but needs more support and doesn't mate up with the H960 rea= r rails. So rather than spend significant money on a shelf, I just installed= a pair of angle irons from front to back (vertical flange down) and set the = array on that. Since it's close to 19 inches wide, that simple solution full= y supports it. > > For a heavy oscilloscope I wanted to install as well, I did something simil= ar: angle iron supporting a sheet of plywood. In that case, it has some addi= tional angle irons running across, to keep the plywood from bowing under the = load. > > paul Amazon has them at lower prices than those -- I was just wondering if=20 anyone in their travels found a particular one that worked well in a DEC=20 rack (e.g. H960) JRJ --===============6419196795518527282==-- From erik@baigar.de Fri Sep 29 21:16:24 2023 From: erik@baigar.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 21:16:20 +0000 Message-ID: <169602218027.4006402.6357909585239214214@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <169556948276.4006402.7692462215505111847@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3995816310060489734==" --===============3995816310060489734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Before heading to some short vacation first of all: Thanks to all contributer= s! I built an adapter for reading the NVRAMs in my programmers (CE2 pulled to VC= C using a resistor, pin 1 isolated) - this adapter us usable for both the DS= 1643 and the DS1553. The TopMax2 software has got a bug - it reads 1643 only = as 4k device so I read all NVRAMs selecting the DS1225 using my Galep-III (so= ftware Galep32) and my TopMax2.=20 Results: (1) The contents of the 1643s (unmodified from UltraBooks) showed va= rying content with lot of 55 and AA as in Santo's dump above. Writing to NVR= AM is of course not persistent. (2) The contents of my modified 1553 (from UltraBookIIi with the external bat= tery attached) are stable (so the battery works) but the content is ramdom. T= he oscillator is stopped hence no update of the clock. After starting that in= the UltraBookIIi the clock still is stopped, so the device is in its factory= -fresh mode and the firmware does not start clock. I can write the data secti= on and any modification is persistent (again: the external battery works).=20 After my vacation I will zero the RAM, start the clock, set reasonable values= for the watchdog and hostid and give it a new try. The problems to be solved= before: The TopMax2 just died and the Galep-III can not write the configurat= ion section - it writes all bytes in one run and than does a verify, but to w= rite the upper 16 bytes first the write bit needs to be set, than data should= be written and it gets latched only in clearing the write bit again. That pr= ocess simply is not present in the Galep32 software because the device gets p= owered down before verify :-( Stay tuned... --===============3995816310060489734==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Sat Sep 30 19:50:24 2023 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF Swap Meet - Wall, NJ - Oct. 28, 2023 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 15:50:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0676061776072033989==" --===============0676061776072033989== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Same place as last year in the big parking lot across from Brookdale and down the street from InfoAge Science and History Museums. We have Southern Monmouth County Firehouse museum selling food and drinks in the middle. This is a fundraiser for both museums (VCF and Firehouse museum) which are both part of InfoAge. All the info is here: https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/ Thanks! Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner VCF Mid-Atlantic Event Manager Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ jeffrey(a)vcfed.org --===============0676061776072033989==--