From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jul 1 02:17:30 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 19:17:16 -0700 Message-ID: <9c2e60bb-d30a-023b-7316-b8f1ad8fecc6@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <333c7627-44df-a1a2-788c-5a1c049f108b@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5519053927710882138==" --===============5519053927710882138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I finally got around to cutting some Linux code to handle the RX50 BRU sets. Since the disks date from 1986, I prefer to work with images. Basically, you extract BACKUP.SYS files from the each of the set of disks. For sake of simplicity, rename the BACKUP.SYS files 1 2 3 4... The run brudump dest-dir 1 2 3 4 5 6 7.. Brudump checks the backup sequence and creates the files from the backup and stashes them in dest-dir. Linux x86_64 Debian 5-10-179 was used, but should run well on most recent distros. If you need this, let me know. Cheers, Chuck --===============5519053927710882138==-- From mumpsdev@icloud.com Sat Jul 1 05:32:18 2023 From: Tommy Chang To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 22:22:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5710111633340328664==" --===============5710111633340328664== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Unfortunately I=E2=80=99m in California so I wouldn=E2=80=99t be of much help= . However, I can certainly contribute money. Tommy Chang Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 30, 2023, at 12:42 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOkies. Another unique thingie in my life, need to get it out there. >=20 > So any suggestions on companies that can do the scans in or around Baltimor= e MD? I'd do it for endless beer privileges at future meets/get togethers :-) >=20 > CZ >=20 >> On 6/29/2023 11:42 PM, Tommy Chang wrote: >> Hello, >>=20 >> As a MUMPS programmer, I would definitely be interested=E2=80=A6 A former = boss lent me his copy once. I should have scanned it. >>=20 >> Tommy Chang >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>>> On Jun 28, 2023, at 2:37 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFWell, it's huge. As in totally fills a large DEC binder. Seems t= o have the following: >>>=20 >>> Introduction to DSM >>>=20 >>> Language reference >>>=20 >>> User's Guide >>>=20 >>> XDT reference >>>=20 >>> Release Notes >>>=20 >>> Would go well with that copy of DSM I have imaged on an RD52 drive. >>>=20 >>> So does anyone in MD have access to a faster scanner than mine (Pixma 870= )? >>>=20 >>> CZ >>>=20 >>>> On 6/28/2023 5:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>>> On Jun 28, 2023, at 5:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>>>> While looking for my RSX11 DECNET manual (because the online version do= esn't have any examples of commands which is why you look in the manual in th= e first place) I found a copy of the DSM binder AA-K676B-TK and ilk. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Is this online or does anyone else have it? >>>> It sure doesn't seem to be on-line. In fact, Googling that document numb= er produces exactly one hit (another DEC document which mentions this documen= t in the text). Getting that scanned would be neat. >>>>=20 >>>> paul --===============5710111633340328664==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Jul 1 06:21:29 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 5120/5110-3 casual notes / 8" disks question Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2023 01:21:13 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9a883176-d08e-b026-c9e5-d9a6bcb901b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6658185619181146251==" --===============6658185619181146251== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ok, so I grabbed some DS/DD 3M 8" disks - I assume I can "MARK" them (reformat). But so far no luck. I never had disks on the 5110, so still learning about them on the 5120 - I assume they still need to be "MARK" just like the tapes are? Here is a short video I made of the 5120 disk drives I have during startup of the system. I'll double check the fuses of the system tomorrow - the fuse behind the CRT was blown, so I'm thinking it's possible this system had some other electrical problems. IBM 5120 Disk Drive Example (benchtop experiment) - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxyDDx8LOGw Much to investigate, but so many other projects - I may need to just put away these 8" drives for a while. OH, and I finally got to talk about the 5100 series. I'm not the best speaker and a couple mistakes I noticed - but mostly I hope I didn't horribly misrepresent your prior work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIJNrBaTenM -Steve On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:38 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Steve Lewis wrote: > > My only question is: how "universal" are 8" disk? This 5120 only came > with > > a single IBM 8" Diagnostics disk. It looks to be in fine condition, but > > I've no idea about the data. > > I can answer your question very quickly: > A 5120 is exactly the same as a 5110 plus 5114. This said, the diagnostics > and any software apply to both systems. > > You can take any 5110 floppy image and recreate a real floppy from it. The > format BTW is "the" standard IBM format. The 5114/5120 can handle > everything from single-sided single-density up to double-sided > double-density. The firmware OTOH has a predefined set called "formats", > ranging from 1 to 9, with an optional suffix indicating the number of > additional directory tracks (only available with DD). The list is > somewhere in the manual, e.g. format 1 is SS/SD 128 bytes/sect. 26 > sects/track, and format 8b (b=blank) is DS/DD 512 bytes/sect. 15 > sects/track. > IIRC format 1-3 are SS/SD, 4-6 SS/DD and 7-9 DS/DD > > Christian > --===============6658185619181146251==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jul 1 13:18:35 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 5120/5110-3 casual notes / 8" disks question Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2023 15:18:23 +0200 Message-ID: <2d186bd9-b45f-2968-59e5-c085d3a37dbc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2151307041979237655==" --===============2151307041979237655== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 1 Jul 2023, Steve Lewis wrote: > Ok, so I grabbed some DS/DD 3M 8" disks - I assume I can "MARK" them > (reformat). But so far no luck. I never had disks on the 5110, so still > learning about them on the 5120 - I assume they still need to be "MARK" > just like the tapes are? You must lowlevel format them first. There's a utility (on the Utilities disk) called INITIAL to do this. You will have to choose the layout and density, i.e. format 1-9 and, if applicable, how many extra directory tracks (only on DD disks). Only then you will be able to mark them. > OH, and I finally got to talk about the 5100 series. I'm not the best > speaker and a couple mistakes I noticed - but mostly I hope I didn't > horribly misrepresent your prior work. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIJNrBaTenM +1 :-) Christian --===============2151307041979237655==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Jul 1 20:10:48 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2023 13:10:32 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5783742290334775258==" --===============5783742290334775258== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don Lancaster passed away on June 7. https://gilaherald.com/obituary-for-don-lancaster/ I hope his website is well preserved: https://tinaja.com/ Sellam --===============5783742290334775258==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Jul 1 23:33:45 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2023 18:33:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4564544717771204610==" --===============4564544717771204610== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/1/23 15:10, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Don Lancaster passed away on June 7. > > https://gilaherald.com/obituary-for-don-lancaster/ > > I hope his website is well preserved: > > https://tinaja.com/ > Wow, another legend!  Yes, there is a lot of good stuff there. Jon --===============4564544717771204610==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Sun Jul 2 00:23:55 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2023 20:23:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5879682935388571636==" --===============5879682935388571636== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would call him a legend in electronics... On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 7:33=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 7/1/23 15:10, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Don Lancaster passed away on June 7. > > > > https://gilaherald.com/obituary-for-don-lancaster/ > > > > I hope his website is well preserved: > > > > https://tinaja.com/ > > > Wow, another legend! Yes, there is a lot of good stuff there. > > Jon > > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss --===============5879682935388571636==-- From jrr@flippers.com Sun Jul 2 00:30:51 2023 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2023 17:25:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3569252306688140216==" --===============3569252306688140216== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023/07/01 1:10 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Don Lancaster passed away on June 7. > > https://gilaherald.com/obituary-for-don-lancaster/ > > I hope his website is well preserved: > > https://tinaja.com/ > > Sellam web.archive.org has many copies archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20230000000000*/https://tinaja.com/ A sad day none the less. John -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============3569252306688140216==-- From jon@jonworld.com Sun Jul 2 13:19:28 2023 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Irix 5.3 ntpdate Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2023 14:19:11 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5378795951922537971==" --===============5378795951922537971== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone! I'm having a horrible time trying to find ntpdate pre-compiled for Irix 5.3 anywhere. Does anyone have a package/tardist? -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============5378795951922537971==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Sun Jul 2 13:31:16 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Irix 5.3 ntpdate Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2023 09:30:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1058232286916673991==" --===============1058232286916673991== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2 Jul 2023 at 09:19, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > Hi everyone! > > I'm having a horrible time trying to find ntpdate pre-compiled for > Irix 5.3 anywhere. Does anyone have a package/tardist? > I don't have an IRIX 5.3 system immediately handy but my recollection is that ntp 4.1.2 ( https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/ntp4/ntp-4.1/ ) compiled pretty smoothly with a simple configure and make, even with the SGI compiler. Let me know if this isn't the case and I'll see if I can dig something out. -Henry --===============1058232286916673991==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Sun Jul 2 23:45:28 2023 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2023 23:36:48 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1451270072280779180==" --===============1451270072280779180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 13:10, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Don Lancaster passed away on June 7. > I hope his website is well preserved: > https://tinaja.com/ I just set Leandra to mirroring it, just in case. Her mainboard's been a lit= tle unstable lately, though, so I don't know if she'll crash again before the copy finishes. Other folks might want to start up their own. The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============1451270072280779180==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Mon Jul 3 21:07:49 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] KIM-1 debug board RAM test: *zero* flashes Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2023 14:07:41 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7495239290663316181==" --===============7495239290663316181== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I assembled Dwight Elvey's KIM-1 debug board (thank you, Gary!) and have now certified two of my KIMs with it, so I'm very confident the harness operates properly. Unfortunately, the one I *want* to repair, my original KIM-1, won't start up = at all after replacing the 2102 RAM I was pretty sure was bad. I checked my soldering and found a couple spots without continuity that should according to the schematic, but fixing those didn't fix it. I also buzzed out the socket a= nd found no obvious shorts, and a second 2102 equivalent from a second manufacturer has the same symptoms. I connected the debug harness and test 0, the initial "dead board" test, does show CPU accesses on the red LED and slowly flashes the green LED, so the CPU at least is alive and can access the test EPROM. However, test 1, the RAM test, should show long flashes of the green LED if R= AM is bad. I was prepared to see all long flashes which might implicate the buffers or address decoder, but instead it won't blink the LED at all in that or any of the other tests. The red LED remains lit and appropriately extinguishes when the RS button is down. Again, the board works correctly and fully certifies the other two KIMs. What would cause it to hang (?) in the RAM test on the defective one? --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Roger Waters to moving crew: "Hey! Careful with those racks, Eugene!" ----= -- --===============7495239290663316181==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Tue Jul 4 01:56:24 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 debug board RAM test: *zero* flashes Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2023 18:56:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8766289947756847473==" --===============8766289947756847473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Answering my own question for posterity: > However, test 1, the RAM test, should show long flashes of the green LED if= RAM > is bad. I was prepared to see all long flashes which might implicate the > buffers or address decoder, but instead it won't blink the LED at all in th= at > or any of the other tests. The red LED remains lit and appropriately > extinguishes when the RS button is down. >=20 > Again, the board works correctly and fully certifies the other two KIMs. >=20 > What would cause it to hang (?) in the RAM test on the defective one? Dwight suggested something wrong with the address lines. That made sense, sin= ce the continuity problems I had on the board were on the address lines (turned out to be lifted traces). However, after spending a couple hours more with the tester, the actual problem was two address lines that had an intermittent short. I cleaned that up and everything passes. The original fault, a bad 2nd bit from $280 to $2bf, was indeed a single RAM chip gone bad in a single row. Now that it's replaced and the board is fixed, the fault is gone. Buffers and address decoding check out just fine. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Not sun-worshippers: Son-worshippers! -- Uhura, Star Trek "Bread & Circuse= s" --===============8766289947756847473==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Wed Jul 5 05:27:47 2023 From: brad@techtimetraveller.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2023 15:57:09 -0700 Message-ID: <033101d9aeca$dcd03640$9670a2c0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3514324360953216870==" --===============3514324360953216870== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but thought I would reach out here in case. I have a terminal from 1974 (based on date codes I've found on the motherboard). I'm unable to determine manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic purposes. The terminal casing is made out of foam, and although there are some serial numbers stamped around, nothing really lines up. The fans inside have zero dust or dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have seen much use, or may be a prototype or pilot for something. It does have RS232 capability. Interestingly the screen is set down below the keyboard so that only half of it is visible. My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm safe to attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok, although some voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious). Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these or something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a manual I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on. Some pics here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2Qkj?usp =sharing Brad brad(a)techtimetraveller.com --===============3514324360953216870==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jul 5 13:54:32 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2023 06:54:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <033101d9aeca$dcd03640$9670a2c0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8205945463788458570==" --===============8205945463788458570== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brad, That's a new one on me. But the split CRT reminds me of a 1970s IBM desk computer (it was a computer built into a desk, I forget the model number) and it had a similar display. I wonder if this isn't some third-party IBM compatible terminal? Sellam On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 10:27=E2=80=AFPM Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but > thought I would reach out here in case. I have a terminal from 1974 (based > on date codes I've found on the motherboard). I'm unable to determine > manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic purposes. The terminal > casing is made out of foam, and although there are some serial numbers > stamped around, nothing really lines up. The fans inside have zero dust or > dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have seen much use, or may be a > prototype > or pilot for something. It does have RS232 capability. Interestingly the > screen is set down below the keyboard so that only half of it is visible. > > > > My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm safe > to > attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok, although some > voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious). > > > > Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these or > something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a manual > I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on. > > > > Some pics here: > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2Qkj?usp > =3Dsharing > > > > > Brad > > brad(a)techtimetraveller.com > > > > --===============8205945463788458570==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Wed Jul 5 15:25:13 2023 From: brad@techtimetraveller.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2023 08:25:08 -0700 Message-ID: <054901d9af54$e1e0a590$a5a1f0b0$@techtimetraveller.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2136708699368223567==" --===============2136708699368223567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seems to be RS-232 compatible, which in my experience is unusual for a termin= al in the early half of the 1970s. It has little serial number stickers tuck= ed around but they're all random numbers, nothing really lines up. A few of = the boards have what appears to be serial numbers in the low hundreds. So tempting to just plug in and see what happens, but I'm concerned about the= voltages on two pins that seem off. -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk =20 Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 6:54 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Brad, That's a new one on me. But the split CRT reminds me of a 1970s IBM desk computer (it was a computer = built into a desk, I forget the model number) and it had a similar display. I wonder if this isn't some third-party IBM compatible terminal? Sellam On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 10:27=E2=80=AFPM Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but=20 > thought I would reach out here in case. I have a terminal from 1974=20 > (based on date codes I've found on the motherboard). I'm unable to=20 > determine manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic=20 > purposes. The terminal casing is made out of foam, and although there=20 > are some serial numbers stamped around, nothing really lines up. The=20 > fans inside have zero dust or dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have=20 > seen much use, or may be a prototype or pilot for something. It does=20 > have RS232 capability. Interestingly the screen is set down below the=20 > keyboard so that only half of it is visible. > > > > My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm=20 > safe to attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok,=20 > although some voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious). > > > > Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these=20 > or something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a=20 > manual I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on. > > > > Some pics here: > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2Q > kj?usp > =3Dsharing > Qkj?usp=3Dsharing> > > > > Brad > > brad(a)techtimetraveller.com > > > > --===============2136708699368223567==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Wed Jul 5 15:28:52 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2023 11:28:19 -0400 Message-ID: <4f1b7883-6650-4365-b310-d689f509b991@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <033101d9aeca$dcd03640$9670a2c0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2894772242517948678==" --===============2894772242517948678== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At first glance it reminded me of the Hazeltine 1000, I owned one in the early 1980's.  Brutally simple terminals, I remember getting a ROM from Jameco which allowed the terminal to display lowercase letters.  Pure luxury. Doug On 7/4/2023 6:57 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but > thought I would reach out here in case. I have a terminal from 1974 (based > on date codes I've found on the motherboard). I'm unable to determine > manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic purposes. The terminal > casing is made out of foam, and although there are some serial numbers > stamped around, nothing really lines up. The fans inside have zero dust or > dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have seen much use, or may be a prototype > or pilot for something. It does have RS232 capability. Interestingly the > screen is set down below the keyboard so that only half of it is visible. > > > > My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm safe to > attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok, although some > voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious). > > > > Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these or > something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a manual > I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on. > > > > Some pics here: > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2Qkj?usp > =sharing > > > > Brad > > brad(a)techtimetraveller.com > > > --===============2894772242517948678==-- From bob@jfcl.com Wed Jul 5 15:37:22 2023 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC VT180 "Robin" Maintenance Prints? Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2023 08:26:31 -0700 Message-ID: <004f01d9af55$137fbdc0$3a7f3940$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0705109219489418166==" --===============0705109219489418166== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody have the maintenance prints for the DEC VT180? The VT180, aka "Robin" was DEC's CP/M machine in a VT100 chassis. The terminal part is just a standard VT100 and maintenance prints for that are easy to find, but I need a schematic for the actual Z80 CP/M Robin option card. Can't seem to find that anywhere. Bitsavers and Manx have the technical manual which has some information (although it wastes way too many pages explaining how a VT100 works!) but no actual schematics. On the same topic, has anybody dumped the ROMs for this machine? Again, not the VT100 ROMs, but the CP/M boot/POST ROMs that are on the VT180 Z80 card. Thanks, Bob --===============0705109219489418166==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Wed Jul 5 16:18:21 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2023 09:10:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <054901d9af54$e1e0a590$a5a1f0b0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0203557091540749791==" --===============0203557091540749791== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-Jul-05, at 8:25 AM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Seems to be RS-232 compatible, which in my experience is unusual for a term= inal in the early half of the 1970s. It has little serial number stickers tu= cked around but they're all random numbers, nothing really lines up. A few o= f the boards have what appears to be serial numbers in the low hundreds. >=20 > So tempting to just plug in and see what happens, but I'm concerned about t= he voltages on two pins that seem off. What does 'seem off' mean? One possibility is they are a floating supply for the CRT heater. Not unusual= in those days was just to have an independent 6.3 or 12.6 VAC secondary on t= he PS transformer dedicated to the heater and it often wouldn't be grounded. = You could try checking between the two pins with multimeter ACV range. This terminal (this specific unit) was mentioned on the list 2 years ago: https://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2021-February/thread.html#57808 2021-Feb-12 Mystery (unusual) 1973 terminal Around a dozen messages. In one of those messages I list & ref some of the mo= re-significant ICs from the board photos. --===============0203557091540749791==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Wed Jul 5 16:46:03 2023 From: brad@techtimetraveller.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2023 09:45:56 -0700 Message-ID: <059601d9af60$2b981a50$82c84ef0$@techtimetraveller.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3927405632609481712==" --===============3927405632609481712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you! I couldn't remember if I'd posted it here before, I've been off the list for a while. Because I don't know really anything about it, I'd been operating on the belief the power sent from the PSU was DC. So maybe that's my issue. There is a single 10 pin connector from the PSU to the motherboard. I tested for DC and found the following: Brown - +5V Red - +5V Orange - +5V Yellow - -16V Green - +16V Blue - -0.8V Purple - GND Grey - GND White - GND Black - -2.4V I'm not sure if the +16 and -16v need to be adjusted, or if they are that high because they don't have a load during my testing. The -16V is directly connected to the VEE on a nearby 1488, and I think the max voltage there should be -15V. The blue and black are the ones that didn't seem right. But, if they're not DC then maybe that's my issue. Also last night I found more cold solder joints, so maybe one or both are affected by that. I will test with my DMM as AC instead of DC and see if I get something there instead. Barring that, I'm working on a schematic of the PSU to try and figure out what it's supposed to be delivering. Like I said, very tempting to plug in, I suspect it may be just fine.. but.. there's a lot of chips to blow up here if I'm wrong. -----Original Message----- From: Brent Hilpert via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 9:11 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Brent Hilpert Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal On 2023-Jul-05, at 8:25 AM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Seems to be RS-232 compatible, which in my experience is unusual for a terminal in the early half of the 1970s. It has little serial number stickers tucked around but they're all random numbers, nothing really lines up. A few of the boards have what appears to be serial numbers in the low hundreds. > > So tempting to just plug in and see what happens, but I'm concerned about the voltages on two pins that seem off. What does 'seem off' mean? One possibility is they are a floating supply for the CRT heater. Not unusual in those days was just to have an independent 6.3 or 12.6 VAC secondary on the PS transformer dedicated to the heater and it often wouldn't be grounded. You could try checking between the two pins with multimeter ACV range. This terminal (this specific unit) was mentioned on the list 2 years ago: https://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2021-February/thread.html#57808 2021-Feb-12 Mystery (unusual) 1973 terminal Around a dozen messages. In one of those messages I list & ref some of the more-significant ICs from the board photos. --===============3927405632609481712==-- From bob@jfcl.com Wed Jul 5 19:04:16 2023 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC VT180 "Robin" Maintenance Prints? Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2023 12:04:13 -0700 Message-ID: <007901d9af73$7d4739e0$77d5ada0$@com> In-Reply-To: <4E40DF10-CCD4-254D-B6F6-4EC41D2B40F8@hxcore.ol> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8419873183119020887==" --===============8419873183119020887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Rob Jarratt wrote: >Have you checked here: http://9track.net/roms/ ... Hey, thank you! I didn't know about this particular collection, and he doe= s have the ROM dumps for the VT180 Z80 board. I'd still like to find a schematic, though! Thanks again, Bob --===============8419873183119020887==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Wed Jul 5 22:08:23 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2023 15:08:18 -0700 Message-ID: <22A7A840-3CAD-4F7B-BC1C-85F9160271B7@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <059601d9af60$2b981a50$82c84ef0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5390877640461731313==" --===============5390877640461731313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-Jul-05, at 9:45 AM, wrote: > Thank you! I couldn't remember if I'd posted it here before, I've been off > the list for a while. >=20 > Because I don't know really anything about it, I'd been operating on the > belief the power sent from the PSU was DC. So maybe that's my issue. There > is a single 10 pin connector from the PSU to the motherboard. I tested for > DC and found the following: >=20 > Brown - +5V > Red - +5V > Orange - +5V > Yellow - -16V > Green - +16V > Blue - -0.8V > Purple - GND > Grey - GND > White - GND > Black - -2.4V >=20 > I'm not sure if the +16 and -16v need to be adjusted, or if they are that > high because they don't have a load during my testing. The -16V is directly > connected to the VEE on a nearby 1488, and I think the max voltage there > should be -15V. >=20 > The blue and black are the ones that didn't seem right. But, if they're not > DC then maybe that's my issue. Also last night I found more cold solder > joints, so maybe one or both are affected by that. I will test with my DMM > as AC instead of DC and see if I get something there instead. Barring that, > I'm working on a schematic of the PSU to try and figure out what it's > supposed to be delivering. >=20 > Like I said, very tempting to plug in, I suspect it may be just fine.. but.. > there's a lot of chips to blow up here if I'm wrong. Seeing as how you're looking at the connections from the PS to the logic, rai= ses the question of how the monitor is being powered: does it have it's own P= S from 120VAC, wired to the PS directly, or from the PS via the logic board. Some points about supplies: - The memory chips are 1402 256*4 PMOS shift registers. These need supplies = of Vcc =3D +5 and Vdd =3D -5 to -9V. The 1402s also need higher voltage clock signals, between Vcc-15 and Vcc-1= 7 (may be -10 to -12 relative to gnd). The two MMH0026 ICs beside the 1402s are the clock drivers for the 1402s. - The 3258 character generator needs -12 (and +5). - The 1602 UART probably needs -12 (and +5). - The RS232 needs +something and -something line-drive levels of course. - There's what looks to be a potted crystal clock module on there, might che= ck what its supply is. Could be +5, but could be something else. - There's probably a MOS keyboard encoder that may require some supplies bes= ides just +5. - Some of these supplies may be derived via components (e.g. zener & droppin= g R) on the logic boards. - And of course the monitor needs its supply(s). Seeing as how you have some odd things appearing on the PS, if it were me, I = would be: - RE-ing the PS thoroughly, - figuring out the power connections on the logic boards to these special IC= s, - figuring out the monitor power supply/sources .. so it's known how all these requirements are intended to be met before pow= ering the whole thing up. I recently refurbished a Teleray terminal from the same period. It uses MOS s= hift registers from the same family (1404s) and similar funky clock drivers. = The power supplies design was more straightforward than what you appear to be= dealing with. On things like this I also like to look at the DB25 connector = to see exactly how it's wired - fixed-level ctl-sig outputs, connections for = ctl-sig inputs that may be required, DCE vs DTE, whether there are any non-EI= A-standard connections present. --===============5390877640461731313==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Jul 6 14:42:40 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Is the list broken again? Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 10:42:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7395722662128854624==" --===============7395722662128854624== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I doubt this will go thru either but other attempts to send to the list are now getting rejected as SPAM.  Doesn't the list check addresses to see if the poster is a member? bill --===============7395722662128854624==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Thu Jul 6 14:44:58 2023 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Is the list broken again? Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 03:34:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580245B998DF0F73D9A31AAED2CA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8920762488258212545==" --===============8920762488258212545== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i see u i hear u On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 9:42 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I doubt this will go thru either but other attempts to send to the list are > > now getting rejected as SPAM. Doesn't the list check addresses to see if > > the poster is a member? > > > bill > > > --===============8920762488258212545==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jul 6 14:49:00 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Is the list broken again? Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 10:48:43 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0252641412709217694==" --===============0252641412709217694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a ham radio (in russian) On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 10:44 AM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > i see u i hear u > > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 9:42 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > I doubt this will go thru either but other attempts to send to the list > are > > > > now getting rejected as SPAM. Doesn't the list check addresses to see if > > > > the poster is a member? > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > --===============0252641412709217694==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Jul 6 14:54:40 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Is the list broken again? Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 15:54:25 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580245B998DF0F73D9A31AAED2CA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8080389880804184498==" --===============8080389880804184498== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 at 15:42, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I doubt this will go thru either but other attempts to send to the list are > now getting rejected as SPAM. Doesn't the list check addresses to see if > the poster is a member? I am hearing you loud and clear. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8080389880804184498==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Jul 6 15:18:33 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Is the list broken again? Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 08:18:31 -0700 Message-ID: <021e01d9b01d$204d7e70$60e87b50$@net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580245B998DF0F73D9A31AAED2CA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4616320414769984206==" --===============4616320414769984206== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I doubt this will go thru either but other attempts to send to the list > are > > now getting rejected as SPAM. Doesn't the list check addresses to see > if > > the poster is a member? In short: no. The spam filters on the list are antiquated at best.... --===============4616320414769984206==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Jul 6 16:30:52 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] OT: Ham Radio Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 12:30:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <499c5d52-95ce-2f76-b17c-0d005368f38c@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7964671705158366282==" --===============7964671705158366282== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know this is off topic, but I think there are a number of hams here. Looking to get back into it but have some questions. Now that the a**holes have completely trashed all the USENET ham radio groups where do hams go for the kinds of discussions that used to be there? bill --===============7964671705158366282==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Thu Jul 6 16:33:37 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Ham Radio Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 11:33:21 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55807EF8CCEB81D985A34CE9ED2CA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6676058322990843784==" --===============6676058322990843784== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are specifically into RTTY, there is the greenkeys list. I am not a ham, but I collect and repair teletypes, so I am active on there. -Eric On Thu, Jul 6, 2023, 11:30 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I know this is off topic, but I think there are a number of hams here. > > Looking to get back into it but have some questions. > > > Now that the a**holes have completely trashed all the USENET ham radio > > groups where do hams go for the kinds of discussions that used to be there? > > > bill > > > --===============6676058322990843784==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Jul 6 16:49:08 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Ham Radio Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 12:49:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3337856405682299186==" --===============3337856405682299186== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where are you located? There is a number of groups all over the range of activities that hams do and in various social media. Please free to email me off list if you want to get more info. 73 de Nigel ve3id On 2023-07-06 12:33, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > If you are specifically into RTTY, there is the greenkeys list. I am not a > ham, but I collect and repair teletypes, so I am active on there. > > -Eric > > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023, 11:30 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I know this is off topic, but I think there are a number of hams here. >> >> Looking to get back into it but have some questions. >> >> >> Now that the a**holes have completely trashed all the USENET ham radio >> >> groups where do hams go for the kinds of discussions that used to be there? >> >> >> bill >> >> >> -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============3337856405682299186==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Thu Jul 6 17:15:34 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Is the list broken again? Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 12:15:28 -0500 Message-ID: <3dea999f-eeb7-1b80-b117-c182b83f9918@tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580245B998DF0F73D9A31AAED2CA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7207823228098051797==" --===============7207823228098051797== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/6/23 9:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Doesn't the list check addresses to see if the poster is a member? This has never been a good test. It really only works to reject blatant unwanted messages. It's trivial to lie and say that a message is from someone that it is not from. Both SMTP envelope and message headers. It's somewhat more difficult to successfully spoof some domains than others, depending on the spoofed domain's security posture; e.g. SPF, DKIM, DMARC. Grant. . . . --===============7207823228098051797==-- From curiousmarc3@gmail.com Thu Jul 6 18:43:26 2023 From: Curious Marc To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 11:43:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4463593551884979881==" --===============4463593551884979881== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very nice writeup! Marc > On Jun 26, 2023, at 5:06 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFVCF SW was this past weekend near Dallas, Texas. >=20 > Here are some highlights from my perspective. >=20 > https://voidstar.blog/vcf-southwest-2023/ >=20 >=20 > Most photos you can click to enlarge (Edge has bugs with WordPress, you may > need to scroll up/down a little bit to get the click thing working) >=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Steve --===============4463593551884979881==-- From db@db.net Thu Jul 6 19:32:43 2023 From: db To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Ham Radio Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 15:32:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55807EF8CCEB81D985A34CE9ED2CA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3977253285655782190==" --===============3977253285655782190== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 06, 2023 at 12:30:44PM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > I know this is off topic, but I think there are a number of hams here. >=20 > Looking to get back into it but have some questions. >=20 >=20 > Now that the a**holes have completely trashed all the USENET ham radio >=20 > groups where do hams go for the kinds of discussions that used to be there? You could try https://mastodon.radio/ I'm also on there as va3db >=20 >=20 > bill >=20 >=20 --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https://octodon.social/@Di= anora --===============3977253285655782190==-- From john@yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Jul 6 21:52:37 2023 From: John Many Jars To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 22:52:18 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Ci6HMrSlx9ZB9NKZPHu6=5FcGhoSI9CzKH-trhMy0jmmtbYeuQV?= =?utf-8?q?s9wOpVLKbeYBxa3qYR-LH4a6iYgbwHrOv6c2xQrr-Biws-eHttcjvz2XZLM=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?virtadpt=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0905389491111696162==" --===============0905389491111696162== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More than anyone else (except maybe Gary Bitter) I owe my lifelong interest in computers to this man. How very sad. What a loss. --===============0905389491111696162==-- From rodsmallwood52@btinternet.com Thu Jul 6 21:54:46 2023 From: Rod Smallwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 21:54:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4f1b7883-6650-4365-b310-d689f509b991@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4533082241418463692==" --===============4533082241418463692== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I worked on VDU's as an engineer in the UK before joining DEC to sell=20 volume VT100's in 1975 There's a mention of block on one of the cards so a block mode terminal. That means enter data and press a key to send the lot. The card cage could mean its emulating something. I'd test as many capacitors as possible. PSU first and replace as required. Run PSU and check voltages. =C2=A0Check each board for power rail to ground shorts. =C2=A0If ok give each board +5v on its own and see if the TTL is alive. If theres a clock gen start there (look for a crystal can) =C2=A0Loads of fans might indicate an industrial environment =C2=A0 At this age some TTL will have failed plus capacitors. =C2=A0Rod Smallwood On 05/07/2023 16:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > At first glance it reminded me of the Hazeltine 1000, I owned one in=20 > the early 1980's.=C2=A0 Brutally simple terminals, I remember getting a ROM= =20 > from Jameco which allowed the terminal to display lowercase letters.=C2=A0 = > Pure luxury. > Doug > > On 7/4/2023 6:57 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: >> Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but >> thought I would reach out here in case.=C2=A0 I have a terminal from 1974 = >> (based >> on date codes I've found on the motherboard).=C2=A0 I'm unable to determine >> manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic purposes. The=20 >> terminal >> casing is made out of foam, and although there are some serial numbers >> stamped around, nothing really lines up.=C2=A0 The fans inside have zero=20 >> dust or >> dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have seen much use, or may be a=20 >> prototype >> or pilot for something.=C2=A0 It does have RS232 capability. Interestingly= =20 >> the >> screen is set down below the keyboard so that only half of it is=20 >> visible. >> >> >> My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm=20 >> safe to >> attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok,=20 >> although some >> voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious). >> >> >> Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these or >> something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a=20 >> manual >> I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on. >> >> >> Some pics here: >> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2Qkj?u= sp=20 >> >> =3Dsharing >> >> >> Brad >> >> brad(a)techtimetraveller.com >> >> > --===============4533082241418463692==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Thu Jul 6 22:13:01 2023 From: brad@techtimetraveller.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 15:12:56 -0700 Message-ID: <08c901d9b057$04a11850$0de348f0$@techtimetraveller.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0954754512443474418==" --===============0954754512443474418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Rod! I discovered an immediate problem I hadn't caught before.. two of the trimmer= resistors had actually been broken right off two of their legs.. so that may= account for strange/missing voltages. They are a CONRAC part 928237. The = CRT is CONRAC too, but I still don't think this is a CONRAC terminal. Anyway= , I only found one source for the exact resistor, an aerospace company, and t= hey want $80 per unit (I think they just want me to go away). So far in testing I haven't found any shorts. My main worry is the PSU sendi= ng incorrect voltages to wrong place. In addition to the broken resistors I = also discovered some broken solder joints on the PSU PCB.. those at least are= repaired. I'm trying to figure out the resistance the two resistors were se= t to so I can put a replacement in with same, hopefully that gets me close to= what should be there. Brad -----Original Message----- From: Rod Smallwood via cctalk =20 Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 8:48 AM To: Douglas Taylor via cctalk Cc: Rod Smallwood Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal I worked on VDU's as an engineer in the UK before joining DEC to sell volume = VT100's in 1975 There's a mention of block on one of the cards so a block mode terminal. That means enter data and press a key to send the lot. The card cage could mean its emulating something. I'd test as many capacitors as possible. PSU first and replace as required. Run PSU and check voltages. Check each board for power rail to ground shorts. If ok give each board +5v on its own and see if the TTL is alive. If theres a clock gen start there (look for a crystal can) Loads of fans might indicate an industrial environment At this age some TTL will have failed plus capacitors. Rod Smallwood On 05/07/2023 16:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > At first glance it reminded me of the Hazeltine 1000, I owned one in=20 > the early 1980's. Brutally simple terminals, I remember getting a ROM=20 > from Jameco which allowed the terminal to display lowercase letters. > Pure luxury. > Doug > > On 7/4/2023 6:57 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: >> Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but=20 >> thought I would reach out here in case. I have a terminal from 1974=20 >> (based on date codes I've found on the motherboard). I'm unable to=20 >> determine manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic=20 >> purposes. The terminal casing is made out of foam, and although there=20 >> are some serial numbers stamped around, nothing really lines up. The=20 >> fans inside have zero dust or dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have=20 >> seen much use, or may be a prototype or pilot for something. It does=20 >> have RS232 capability. Interestingly the screen is set down below the=20 >> keyboard so that only half of it is visible. >> >> >> My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm=20 >> safe to attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok,=20 >> although some voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious). >> >> >> Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these=20 >> or something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a=20 >> manual I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on. >> >> >> Some pics here: >> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2 >> Qkj?usp >> >> =3Dsharing >> >> >> Brad >> >> brad(a)techtimetraveller.com >> >> > --===============0954754512443474418==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jul 6 22:26:23 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 18:26:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8651406928738506985==" --===============8651406928738506985== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am going throw out a Jim Butterfield too On Thu, Jul 6, 2023, 5:52 PM John Many Jars via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > More than anyone else (except maybe Gary Bitter) I owe my lifelong interest > in computers to this man. How very sad. What a loss. > --===============8651406928738506985==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jul 6 22:39:44 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] BEWARE: Phishing Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 15:39:33 -0700 Message-ID: <92d33043-f758-3aea-0b6e-33e860059c13@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2775925467603026666==" --===============2775925467603026666== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just got the following message in the account that I use to receive cctalk email: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello cclist, The passwогd to your mailbox (cclist(a)sydex.com) expires in 24 hrs time. Following this prompt, your webmail will log you out and generate a new passwогd. Alternatively, you can retain and continue using your cuггent passwогd, by using the user secured button below; Keep Cuггent Passwогd (link goes to cloudflare-ipfs.com) This email is generated by sydex.com's mail server for cclist(a)sydex.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FYI Chuck --===============2775925467603026666==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Jul 6 23:15:20 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 23:15:14 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <08c901d9b057$04a11850$0de348f0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3371514009553488316==" --===============3371514009553488316== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ve just pressed the 2 broken end together and measured the resistan= ce end to end to get an idea of the resistance. Any old trimmer of suitable v= alue should work as a replacement as the vdu is probably not going to be in a= harsh environment anymore.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2023, at 15:13, Brad H via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThanks Rod! >=20 > I discovered an immediate problem I hadn't caught before.. two of the trimm= er resistors had actually been broken right off two of their legs.. so that m= ay account for strange/missing voltages. They are a CONRAC part 928237. Th= e CRT is CONRAC too, but I still don't think this is a CONRAC terminal. Anyw= ay, I only found one source for the exact resistor, an aerospace company, and= they want $80 per unit (I think they just want me to go away). >=20 > So far in testing I haven't found any shorts. My main worry is the PSU sen= ding incorrect voltages to wrong place. In addition to the broken resistors = I also discovered some broken solder joints on the PSU PCB.. those at least a= re repaired. I'm trying to figure out the resistance the two resistors were = set to so I can put a replacement in with same, hopefully that gets me close = to what should be there. >=20 > Brad >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rod Smallwood via cctalk =20 > Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 8:48 AM > To: Douglas Taylor via cctalk > Cc: Rod Smallwood > Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal >=20 > I worked on VDU's as an engineer in the UK before joining DEC to sell volum= e VT100's in 1975 >=20 > There's a mention of block on one of the cards so a block mode terminal. >=20 > That means enter data and press a key to send the lot. >=20 > The card cage could mean its emulating something. >=20 > I'd test as many capacitors as possible. PSU first and replace as required. >=20 > Run PSU and check voltages. >=20 > Check each board for power rail to ground shorts. >=20 > If ok give each board +5v on its own and see if the TTL is alive. >=20 > If theres a clock gen start there (look for a crystal can) >=20 > Loads of fans might indicate an industrial environment >=20 > At this age some TTL will have failed plus capacitors. >=20 > Rod Smallwood >=20 >=20 >> On 05/07/2023 16:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> At first glance it reminded me of the Hazeltine 1000, I owned one in=20 >> the early 1980's. Brutally simple terminals, I remember getting a ROM=20 >> from Jameco which allowed the terminal to display lowercase letters. >> Pure luxury. >> Doug >>=20 >>> On 7/4/2023 6:57 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but=20 >>> thought I would reach out here in case. I have a terminal from 1974=20 >>> (based on date codes I've found on the motherboard). I'm unable to=20 >>> determine manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic=20 >>> purposes. The terminal casing is made out of foam, and although there=20 >>> are some serial numbers stamped around, nothing really lines up. The=20 >>> fans inside have zero dust or dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have=20 >>> seen much use, or may be a prototype or pilot for something. It does=20 >>> have RS232 capability. Interestingly the screen is set down below the=20 >>> keyboard so that only half of it is visible. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm=20 >>> safe to attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok,=20 >>> although some voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious). >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these=20 >>> or something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a=20 >>> manual I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Some pics here: >>> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2 >>> Qkj?usp >>>=20 >>> =3Dsharing >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Brad >>>=20 >>> brad(a)techtimetraveller.com >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 --===============3371514009553488316==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Thu Jul 6 23:17:00 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 19:16:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <92d33043-f758-3aea-0b6e-33e860059c13@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5672044354768824252==" --===============5672044354768824252== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck, So what actions are we supposed to take?? I was going to go to the cloudflair link but got a message that this was a dangerous site! This link looks dangerous This link opens a site that is likely to be harmful Ken On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:39=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Just got the following message in the account that I use to receive > cctalk email: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hello cclist, > > The passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d to your mailbox (cclist(a)sydex.com) expires in 24 h= rs time. > > Following this prompt, your webmail will log you out and generate a new > passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d. > > > Alternatively, you can retain and continue using your cu=D0=B3=D0=B3ent pas= sw=D0=BE=D0=B3d, > by using the user secured button below; > > Keep Cu=D0=B3=D0=B3ent Passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d (link goes to cloudflare-ipfs.com) > > This email is generated by sydex.com's mail server for cclist(a)sydex.com. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > FYI > Chuck > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss --===============5672044354768824252==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 6 23:30:36 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 19:30:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1336867491540493677==" --===============1336867491540493677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You should ignore it, just like all other criminal messages of that kind. paul > On Jul 6, 2023, at 7:16 PM, KenUnix via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > Chuck, >=20 > So what actions are we supposed to take?? >=20 > I was going to go to the cloudflair link but got a message that this was a > dangerous site! >=20 > This link looks dangerous > This link opens a site that is likely to be harmful >=20 > Ken >=20 > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:39=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> Just got the following message in the account that I use to receive >> cctalk email: >>=20 >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> Hello cclist, >>=20 >> The passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d to your mailbox (cclist(a)sydex.com) expires in 24 = hrs time. >>=20 >> Following this prompt, your webmail will log you out and generate a new >> passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d. >>=20 >>=20 >> Alternatively, you can retain and continue using your cu=D0=B3=D0=B3ent pa= ssw=D0=BE=D0=B3d, >> by using the user secured button below; >>=20 >> Keep Cu=D0=B3=D0=B3ent Passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d (link goes to cloudflare-ipfs.co= m) >>=20 >> This email is generated by sydex.com's mail server for cclist(a)sydex.com. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>=20 >> FYI >> Chuck >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > End of line > JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss --===============1336867491540493677==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Fri Jul 7 00:18:57 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 20:18:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3766970527776273927==" --===============3766970527776273927== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okey Dokey Thanks. On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 7:30=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > You should ignore it, just like all other criminal messages of that kind. > > paul > > > On Jul 6, 2023, at 7:16 PM, KenUnix via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Chuck, > > > > So what actions are we supposed to take?? > > > > I was going to go to the cloudflair link but got a message that this was > a > > dangerous site! > > > > This link looks dangerous > > This link opens a site that is likely to be harmful > > > > Ken > > > > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:39=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> Just got the following message in the account that I use to receive > >> cctalk email: > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Hello cclist, > >> > >> The passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d to your mailbox (cclist(a)sydex.com) expires in 2= 4 hrs time. > >> > >> Following this prompt, your webmail will log you out and generate a new > >> passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d. > >> > >> > >> Alternatively, you can retain and continue using your cu=D0=B3=D0=B3ent = passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d, > >> by using the user secured button below; > >> > >> Keep Cu=D0=B3=D0=B3ent Passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d (link goes to cloudflare-ipfs.= com) > >> > >> This email is generated by sydex.com's mail server for cclist(a)sydex.com > . > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> FYI > >> Chuck > >> > > > > > > -- > > End of line > > JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss > > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss --===============3766970527776273927==-- From doug@doughq.com Fri Jul 7 00:47:36 2023 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 10:47:13 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2457024611192021053==" --===============2457024611192021053== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everybody. It is important to keep everyone aware of phishing attempts, but it's also important to make sure when you send warning emails to simply delete the actual URL that the criminals provide so that nobody accidently clicks on something... Kind of like making sure that 400V capacitor was discharged before handing it to your lab mate in class :-) Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 10:19, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Okey Dokey Thanks. > > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 7:30 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > You should ignore it, just like all other criminal messages of that kind. > > > > paul > > > > > On Jul 6, 2023, at 7:16 PM, KenUnix via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > Chuck, > > > > > > So what actions are we supposed to take?? > > > > > > I was going to go to the cloudflair link but got a message that this > was > > a > > > dangerous site! > > > > > > This link looks dangerous > > > This link opens a site that is likely to be harmful > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Just got the following message in the account that I use to receive > > >> cctalk email: > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> Hello cclist, > > >> > > >> The passwогd to your mailbox (cclist(a)sydex.com) expires in 24 hrs > time. > > >> > > >> Following this prompt, your webmail will log you out and generate a > new > > >> passwогd. > > >> > > >> > > >> Alternatively, you can retain and continue using your cuггent > passwогd, > > >> by using the user secured button below; > > >> > > >> Keep Cuггent Passwогd (link goes to cloudflare-ipfs.com) > > >> > > >> This email is generated by sydex.com's mail server for > cclist(a)sydex.com > > . > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> > > >> FYI > > >> Chuck > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > End of line > > > JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss > > > > > > -- > End of line > JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss > --===============2457024611192021053==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri Jul 7 02:41:05 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 22:40:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <08c901d9b057$04a11850$0de348f0$@techtimetraveller.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6095174346578336447==" --===============6095174346578336447== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Conrac mainly made CRT monitor assemblies, so the actual terminal was quite possibly made by someone else. It looks vaguely familiar; I'm surprised no one's recognized it. m On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:13 PM Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Thanks Rod! > > I discovered an immediate problem I hadn't caught before.. two of the > trimmer resistors had actually been broken right off two of their legs.. so > that may account for strange/missing voltages. They are a CONRAC part > 928237. The CRT is CONRAC too, but I still don't think this is a CONRAC > terminal. Anyway, I only found one source for the exact resistor, an > aerospace company, and they want $80 per unit (I think they just want me to > go away). > > So far in testing I haven't found any shorts. My main worry is the PSU > sending incorrect voltages to wrong place. In addition to the broken > resistors I also discovered some broken solder joints on the PSU PCB.. > those at least are repaired. I'm trying to figure out the resistance the > two resistors were set to so I can put a replacement in with same, > hopefully that gets me close to what should be there. > > Brad > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rod Smallwood via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 8:48 AM > To: Douglas Taylor via cctalk > Cc: Rod Smallwood > Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal > > I worked on VDU's as an engineer in the UK before joining DEC to sell > volume VT100's in 1975 > > There's a mention of block on one of the cards so a block mode terminal. > > That means enter data and press a key to send the lot. > > The card cage could mean its emulating something. > > I'd test as many capacitors as possible. PSU first and replace as required. > > Run PSU and check voltages. > > Check each board for power rail to ground shorts. > > If ok give each board +5v on its own and see if the TTL is alive. > > If theres a clock gen start there (look for a crystal can) > > Loads of fans might indicate an industrial environment > > At this age some TTL will have failed plus capacitors. > > Rod Smallwood > > > On 05/07/2023 16:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > At first glance it reminded me of the Hazeltine 1000, I owned one in > > the early 1980's. Brutally simple terminals, I remember getting a ROM > > from Jameco which allowed the terminal to display lowercase letters. > > Pure luxury. > > Doug > > > > On 7/4/2023 6:57 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but > >> thought I would reach out here in case. I have a terminal from 1974 > >> (based on date codes I've found on the motherboard). I'm unable to > >> determine manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic > >> purposes. The terminal casing is made out of foam, and although there > >> are some serial numbers stamped around, nothing really lines up. The > >> fans inside have zero dust or dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have > >> seen much use, or may be a prototype or pilot for something. It does > >> have RS232 capability. Interestingly the screen is set down below the > >> keyboard so that only half of it is visible. > >> > >> > >> My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm > >> safe to attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok, > >> although some voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious). > >> > >> > >> Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these > >> or something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a > >> manual I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on. > >> > >> > >> Some pics here: > >> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2 > >> Qkj?usp > >> > >> =sharing > >> > >> > >> Brad > >> > >> brad(a)techtimetraveller.com > >> > >> > > > > --===============6095174346578336447==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Fri Jul 7 03:17:36 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 21:17:17 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6902604961003879118==" --===============6902604961003879118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Jul 6, 2023, 8:41 PM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Conrac mainly made CRT monitor assemblies, so the actual terminal was quite > possibly made by someone else. > > It looks vaguely familiar; I'm surprised no one's recognized it. > Yea. Looks vaguely SABER like, but my only experience with them is airline tickets an eon ago... but the screen looks all wrong... Warner m > > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:13 PM Brad H via cctalk > wrote: > > > Thanks Rod! > > > > I discovered an immediate problem I hadn't caught before.. two of the > > trimmer resistors had actually been broken right off two of their legs.. > so > > that may account for strange/missing voltages. They are a CONRAC part > > 928237. The CRT is CONRAC too, but I still don't think this is a CONRAC > > terminal. Anyway, I only found one source for the exact resistor, an > > aerospace company, and they want $80 per unit (I think they just want me > to > > go away). > > > > So far in testing I haven't found any shorts. My main worry is the PSU > > sending incorrect voltages to wrong place. In addition to the broken > > resistors I also discovered some broken solder joints on the PSU PCB.. > > those at least are repaired. I'm trying to figure out the resistance the > > two resistors were set to so I can put a replacement in with same, > > hopefully that gets me close to what should be there. > > > > Brad > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rod Smallwood via cctalk > > Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 8:48 AM > > To: Douglas Taylor via cctalk > > Cc: Rod Smallwood > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal > > > > I worked on VDU's as an engineer in the UK before joining DEC to sell > > volume VT100's in 1975 > > > > There's a mention of block on one of the cards so a block mode terminal. > > > > That means enter data and press a key to send the lot. > > > > The card cage could mean its emulating something. > > > > I'd test as many capacitors as possible. PSU first and replace as > required. > > > > Run PSU and check voltages. > > > > Check each board for power rail to ground shorts. > > > > If ok give each board +5v on its own and see if the TTL is alive. > > > > If theres a clock gen start there (look for a crystal can) > > > > Loads of fans might indicate an industrial environment > > > > At this age some TTL will have failed plus capacitors. > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > On 05/07/2023 16:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > At first glance it reminded me of the Hazeltine 1000, I owned one in > > > the early 1980's. Brutally simple terminals, I remember getting a ROM > > > from Jameco which allowed the terminal to display lowercase letters. > > > Pure luxury. > > > Doug > > > > > > On 7/4/2023 6:57 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > > >> Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but > > >> thought I would reach out here in case. I have a terminal from 1974 > > >> (based on date codes I've found on the motherboard). I'm unable to > > >> determine manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic > > >> purposes. The terminal casing is made out of foam, and although there > > >> are some serial numbers stamped around, nothing really lines up. The > > >> fans inside have zero dust or dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have > > >> seen much use, or may be a prototype or pilot for something. It does > > >> have RS232 capability. Interestingly the screen is set down below the > > >> keyboard so that only half of it is visible. > > >> > > >> > > >> My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm > > >> safe to attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok, > > >> although some voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious). > > >> > > >> > > >> Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these > > >> or something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a > > >> manual I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on. > > >> > > >> > > >> Some pics here: > > >> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2 > > >> Qkj?usp > > >> > > >> =sharing > > >> > > >> > > >> Brad > > >> > > >> brad(a)techtimetraveller.com > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > --===============6902604961003879118==-- From rodsmallwood52@btinternet.com Fri Jul 7 06:39:45 2023 From: Rod Smallwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 07:39:40 +0100 Message-ID: <2cb00b1a-1109-a5c5-83c5-61e40ad8a2a5@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4213482031066423313==" --===============4213482031066423313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK time to look at what we dont see. No numeric pad No function keys Keys with blank tops (dummies?) Pretty much a 'glass teletype' Not untypical of a general use terminal in a college or university. Rod Smallwood On 07/07/2023 04:17, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023, 8:41 PM Mike Stein via cctalk > wrote: > >> Conrac mainly made CRT monitor assemblies, so the actual terminal was quite >> possibly made by someone else. >> >> It looks vaguely familiar; I'm surprised no one's recognized it. >> > Yea. Looks vaguely SABER like, but my only experience with them is airline > tickets an eon ago... but the screen looks all wrong... > > Warner > > m >> On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:13=E2=80=AFPM Brad H via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Rod! >>> >>> I discovered an immediate problem I hadn't caught before.. two of the >>> trimmer resistors had actually been broken right off two of their legs.. >> so >>> that may account for strange/missing voltages. They are a CONRAC part >>> 928237. The CRT is CONRAC too, but I still don't think this is a CONRAC >>> terminal. Anyway, I only found one source for the exact resistor, an >>> aerospace company, and they want $80 per unit (I think they just want me >> to >>> go away). >>> >>> So far in testing I haven't found any shorts. My main worry is the PSU >>> sending incorrect voltages to wrong place. In addition to the broken >>> resistors I also discovered some broken solder joints on the PSU PCB.. >>> those at least are repaired. I'm trying to figure out the resistance the >>> two resistors were set to so I can put a replacement in with same, >>> hopefully that gets me close to what should be there. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rod Smallwood via cctalk >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 8:48 AM >>> To: Douglas Taylor via cctalk >>> Cc: Rod Smallwood >>> Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal >>> >>> I worked on VDU's as an engineer in the UK before joining DEC to sell >>> volume VT100's in 1975 >>> >>> There's a mention of block on one of the cards so a block mode terminal. >>> >>> That means enter data and press a key to send the lot. >>> >>> The card cage could mean its emulating something. >>> >>> I'd test as many capacitors as possible. PSU first and replace as >> required. >>> Run PSU and check voltages. >>> >>> Check each board for power rail to ground shorts. >>> >>> If ok give each board +5v on its own and see if the TTL is alive. >>> >>> If theres a clock gen start there (look for a crystal can) >>> >>> Loads of fans might indicate an industrial environment >>> >>> At this age some TTL will have failed plus capacitors. >>> >>> Rod Smallwood >>> >>> >>> On 05/07/2023 16:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>>> At first glance it reminded me of the Hazeltine 1000, I owned one in >>>> the early 1980's. Brutally simple terminals, I remember getting a ROM >>>> from Jameco which allowed the terminal to display lowercase letters. >>>> Pure luxury. >>>> Doug >>>> >>>> On 7/4/2023 6:57 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but >>>>> thought I would reach out here in case. I have a terminal from 1974 >>>>> (based on date codes I've found on the motherboard). I'm unable to >>>>> determine manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic >>>>> purposes. The terminal casing is made out of foam, and although there >>>>> are some serial numbers stamped around, nothing really lines up. The >>>>> fans inside have zero dust or dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have >>>>> seen much use, or may be a prototype or pilot for something. It does >>>>> have RS232 capability. Interestingly the screen is set down below the >>>>> keyboard so that only half of it is visible. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm >>>>> safe to attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok, >>>>> although some voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these >>>>> or something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a >>>>> manual I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Some pics here: >>>>> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2 >>>>> Qkj?usp >>>>> >>>>> =3Dsharing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brad >>>>> >>>>> brad(a)techtimetraveller.com >>>>> >>>>> >>> --===============4213482031066423313==-- From holger.veit@iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Jul 7 07:50:38 2023 From: "Veit, Holger" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FOSBIC Compiler Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 07:43:16 +0000 Message-ID: <87faaf94ee9c40c29dc28da8c9507570@iais.fraunhofer.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0915955124304349473==" --===============0915955124304349473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, maybe someone here is interested in the FOSBIC (FORTRAN Simulated BASIC Inter= pretive Compiler) system. Background: This was developed, oder rather ported from UWBIC (University of = Washington, Prog. W.H. Sharpe) in the mid 70s, by Prof Weber et al. at the Ge= rman University of Gie=C3=9Fen, for the purpose of teaching BASIC on their CD= C3300 batch system. It is written in FORTRAN IV, and knows most of Dartmouth BASIC, including MAT= statements and basic sequential/ISAM file handling. I have ported that, with the help to GNU gfortran, to modern Windows (mingw/c= ygwin) and Linux, so anyone may play with it. It is still a batch system, i.e= . on has to provide the BASIC program as a file (formerly it had to be a card= deck), and feed it into the program through stdin, as in "./fosbic < hello.bas | ./asa" The code with many examples is available at https://github.com/hveit01/FOSBIC= , and has also found its way to bitsavers.org/pdf/uni-giessen. -- Regards Holger --===============0915955124304349473==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Fri Jul 7 07:54:18 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Ham Radio Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 08:54:10 +0100 Message-ID: <0bb301d9b0a8$37a2c9f0$a6e85dd0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55807EF8CCEB81D985A34CE9ED2CA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4738704657788348835==" --===============4738704657788348835== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, There are moderated groups, but many don't want to use them. Not sure why, de= lays in posting etc. As most of the noxious people are consistent in posting ids some kill filters= can fix. Dave=20 G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2023 5:31 PM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Bill Gunshannon > Subject: [cctalk] OT: Ham Radio >=20 >=20 >=20 > I know this is off topic, but I think there are a number of hams here. >=20 > Looking to get back into it but have some questions. >=20 >=20 > Now that the a**holes have completely trashed all the USENET ham radio >=20 > groups where do hams go for the kinds of discussions that used to be there? >=20 >=20 > bill >=20 --===============4738704657788348835==-- From skogtun@gmail.com Fri Jul 7 10:25:32 2023 From: Harald Arnesen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FOSBIC Compiler Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 12:25:20 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87faaf94ee9c40c29dc28da8c9507570@iais.fraunhofer.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7169537643459471128==" --===============7169537643459471128== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Veit, Holger via cctalk [07/07/2023 09.43]: > Hi all, > maybe someone here is interested in the FOSBIC (FORTRAN Simulated BASIC Int= erpretive Compiler) system. Compiles fine, the tests I have run works as intended. > It is still a batch system, i.e. on has to provide the BASIC program as a f= ile (formerly it had to be a card deck), and feed it into the program through= stdin, as > in "./fosbic < hello.bas | ./asa" I made a shell script to do this, along with checking that the source=20 file exists. Thanks! --=20 Hilsen Harald =D0=A1=D0=BB=D0=B0=D0=B2=D0=B0 =D0=A3=D0=BA=D1=80=D0=B0=D1=97=D0=BD=D1=96! --===============7169537643459471128==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jul 7 14:27:57 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FOSBIC Compiler Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 07:27:33 -0700 Message-ID: <7f66c4a1-e39a-181e-0774-9b0f30113093@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <87faaf94ee9c40c29dc28da8c9507570@iais.fraunhofer.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0234547392518688182==" --===============0234547392518688182== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/7/23 00:43, Veit, Holger via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > maybe someone here is interested in the FOSBIC (FORTRAN Simulated BASIC Int= erpretive Compiler) system. >=20 > Background: This was developed, oder rather ported from UWBIC (University o= f Washington, Prog. W.H. Sharpe) in the mid 70s, by Prof Weber et al. at the = German University of Gie=C3=9Fen, for the purpose of teaching BASIC on their = CDC3300 batch system. > It is written in FORTRAN IV, and knows most of Dartmouth BASIC, including M= AT statements and basic sequential/ISAM file handling. >=20 > I have ported that, with the help to GNU gfortran, to modern Windows (mingw= /cygwin) and Linux, so anyone may play with it. It is still a batch system, i= .e. on has to provide the BASIC program as a file (formerly it had to be a ca= rd deck), and feed it into the program through stdin, as > in "./fosbic < hello.bas | ./asa" > The code with many examples is available at https://github.com/hveit01/FOSB= IC, and has also found its way to bitsavers.org/pdf/uni-giessen. Does a test/validation suite exist for this thing? Just wondering--how does one tell if a good version has been produced? --Chuck --===============0234547392518688182==-- From holger.veit@iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Jul 7 14:58:17 2023 From: "Veit, Holger" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FOSBIC Compiler Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 14:50:51 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7f66c4a1-e39a-181e-0774-9b0f30113093@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3877152579968399588==" --===============3877152579968399588== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ________________________________________ Von: Chuck Guzis via cctalk > On 7/7/23 00:43, Veit, Holger via cctalk wrote: >> Hi all, >> maybe someone here is interested in the FOSBIC (FORTRAN Simulated BASIC In= terpretive Compiler) system. >> >> Background: This was developed, oder rather ported from UWBIC (University = of Washington, Prog. W.H. Sharpe) in the mid 70s, by Prof Weber et al. at the= German University of Gie=C3=9Fen, for the purpose of teaching BASIC on their= CDC3300 batch system. >> It is written in FORTRAN IV, and knows most of Dartmouth BASIC, including = MAT statements and basic sequential/ISAM file handling. >> >> I have ported that, with the help to GNU gfortran, to modern Windows (ming= w/cygwin) and Linux, so anyone may play with it. It is still a batch system, = i.e. on has to provide the BASIC program as a file (formerly it had to be a c= ard deck), and feed it into the program through stdin, as >> in "./fosbic < hello.bas | ./asa" >> The code with many examples is available at https://github.com/hveit01/FOS= BIC, and has also found its way to bitsavers.org/pdf/uni-giessen. > >Does a test/validation suite exist for this thing? > >Just wondering--how does one tell if a good version has been produced? Where should a validation suite come from with such old code? There are numerous examples, partly from the accompanying text books, partly = generated by myself by reverse engineering the source code, where I even found a number of bugs in the published code, as well as some qu= irks such as PRINT also being accepted as PRONT, due to incomplete decoding o= f keywords. The examples do work, but there is no warranty that it will be bu= g free under all circumstances. Take it or leave it as is. Holger --===============3877152579968399588==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 7 18:34:21 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 13:34:13 -0500 Message-ID: <6fac5905-a5bc-e793-9b5d-4d6ae23e84c0@tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2915488616463732012==" --===============2915488616463732012== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/6/23 7:47 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Hi Everybody. Hi, > It is important to keep everyone aware of phishing attempts, but it's > also important to make sure when you send warning emails to simply > delete the actual URL that the criminals provide so that nobody > accidently clicks on something... As someone that tends to investigate a lot of things -- though not this specific one -- I appreciate breaking, but not removing, URLs. E.g.: www.example.com Becomes: wwwDOTexampleDOTcom or www.exa BREAK LINK mple.com So the data is there but is rendered safe for people. > Kind of like making sure that 400V capacitor was discharged before > handing it to your lab mate in class :-) What?! Grant. . . . --===============2915488616463732012==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jul 7 19:24:54 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 12:24:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6874600498392045011==" --===============6874600498392045011== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 5:47 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Kind of like making sure that 400V capacitor was discharged before handing > it to your lab mate in class :-) > How else are we to know that the capacitor is charged, or that the link is dangerous? ;) Sellam --===============6874600498392045011==-- From drb@msu.edu Fri Jul 7 19:28:52 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 15:28:47 -0400 Message-ID: <20230707192847.74ABC4AA5D7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <6fac5905-a5bc-e793-9b5d-4d6ae23e84c0@tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2153180157248066045==" --===============2153180157248066045== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It is important to keep everyone aware of phishing attempts, but it's=20 > > also important to make sure when you send warning emails to simply=20 > > delete the actual URL that the criminals provide so that nobody=20 > > accidently clicks on something... > As someone that tends to investigate a lot of things -- though not this=20 > specific one -- I appreciate breaking, but not removing, URLs. While bowdlerizing the link in an obvious way is probably a good plan, it seems like blindly clicking on a link labeled BEWARE might not be a good plan. :) De --===============2153180157248066045==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Fri Jul 7 20:30:13 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 22:17:01 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8348028077271642462==" --===============8348028077271642462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jul 06, 2023 at 07:16:38PM -0400, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, > > So what actions are we supposed to take?? Laugh, say "nix try", ignore that phishing attempt and move on with life. > I was going to go to the cloudflair link but got a message that this was a > dangerous site! Do not follow link in such emails, as at best, they'll point to a deceptive trap (that tries to con you into handing over e.g. login credentials). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============8348028077271642462==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Fri Jul 7 20:38:22 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 15:38:05 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0599796836832182472==" --===============0599796836832182472== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It probably goes without saying but if you did access the link or submit a password, you'll want to reset any accounts using those credentials. Interesting though. I didn't receive anything, but not complaining :-) Thanks for reporting and the awareness. On Thu, Jul 6, 2023, 6:17 PM KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, > > So what actions are we supposed to take?? > > I was going to go to the cloudflair link but got a message that this was a > dangerous site! > > This link looks dangerous > This link opens a site that is likely to be harmful > > Ken > > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:39=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Just got the following message in the account that I use to receive > > cctalk email: > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Hello cclist, > > > > The passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d to your mailbox (cclist(a)sydex.com) expires in 24= hrs time. > > > > Following this prompt, your webmail will log you out and generate a new > > passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d. > > > > > > Alternatively, you can retain and continue using your cu=D0=B3=D0=B3ent p= assw=D0=BE=D0=B3d, > > by using the user secured button below; > > > > Keep Cu=D0=B3=D0=B3ent Passw=D0=BE=D0=B3d (link goes to cloudflare-ipfs.c= om) > > > > This email is generated by sydex.com's mail server for cclist(a)sydex.com. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > FYI > > Chuck > > > > > -- > End of line > JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss > --===============0599796836832182472==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Fri Jul 7 21:23:18 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 14:23:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7121197979841553375==" --===============7121197979841553375== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 12:24 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > How else are we to know that the capacitor is charged, or that the link is > dangerous? I clicked on the link. Now all of my apes are gone. --===============7121197979841553375==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jul 7 22:13:36 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 15:13:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3967107794482084116==" --===============3967107794482084116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> How else are we to know that the capacitor is charged, or that the link is >> dangerous? On Fri, 7 Jul 2023, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > I clicked on the link. Now all of my apes are gone. Perhaps your apes planted the malware as a diversion to escape? --===============3967107794482084116==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Fri Jul 7 22:21:06 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 18:20:43 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0774709806185631847==" --===============0774709806185631847== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + ---| |--- - ZAP On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 6:13=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> How else are we to know that the capacitor is charged, or that the link > is > >> dangerous? > > On Fri, 7 Jul 2023, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > I clicked on the link. Now all of my apes are gone. > > Perhaps your apes planted the malware as a diversion to escape? > > > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss --===============0774709806185631847==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 7 23:18:01 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 18:17:53 -0500 Message-ID: <384287d3-e4f9-f9a5-1627-c9bd32923ad5@tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1402139043154755428==" --===============1402139043154755428== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/7/23 2:24 PM, Sellam Abraham wrote: > How else are we to know that the capacitor is charged, or that the > link is dangerous? You touch your neighbor with it. }:-) Grant. . . . --===============1402139043154755428==-- From doug@doughq.com Sat Jul 8 02:50:08 2023 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2023 12:49:43 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <384287d3-e4f9-f9a5-1627-c9bd32923ad5@tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0676618648030820335==" --===============0676618648030820335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To be completely honest, Electrotechnology students with 415v DC bench supplies and HV caps all learnt very quickly not to catch something when somebody threw it to you. Ahhh - The folly of youth :-) Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Sat, 8 Jul 2023 at 09:18, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/7/23 2:24 PM, Sellam Abraham wrote: > > How else are we to know that the capacitor is charged, or that the > > link is dangerous? > You touch your neighbor with it. }:-) > > > > Grant. . . . > --===============0676618648030820335==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Sat Jul 8 09:20:05 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2023 10:19:55 +0100 Message-ID: <141801d9b17d$5c63e820$152bb860$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4826757859783333760==" --===============4826757859783333760== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > Sent: Friday, July 7, 2023 8:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Sellam Abraham > Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing >=20 > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 5:47=E2=80=AFPM Doug Jackson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 > > Kind of like making sure that 400V capacitor was discharged before > > handing it to your lab mate in class :-) > > >=20 > How else are we to know that the capacitor is charged, or that the link is > dangerous? Despite what your browser says, the link itself isn't dangerous. Web browsers= aren't dangerous. Its USERS that are dangerous. If it=E2=80=99s phishing it its relying on you putting in a password from ano= ther site, or in selling you something like e-currency. So before touching any high voltage capacitor best practice is to a discharge= resistor across the terminals and not rely on time or another person to disc= harge it.=20 So before putting your username and password into a web site it=E2=80=99s a g= ood idea to check the whole URL matches what you expect. Often such e-mails will try and convince you something is time critical so in= this case " expires in 24 hrs time. >=20 > ;) >=20 > Sellam Dave --===============4826757859783333760==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Sat Jul 8 09:28:05 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2023 10:27:55 +0100 Message-ID: <142301d9b17e$7af4cec0$70de6c40$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5531618417598769091==" --===============5531618417598769091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ... sorry sent this to soon... > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > Sent: Friday, July 7, 2023 8:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Sellam Abraham > Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing >=20 > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 5:47=E2=80=AFPM Doug Jackson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 > > Kind of like making sure that 400V capacitor was discharged before > > handing it to your lab mate in class :-) > > >=20 > How else are we to know that the capacitor is charged, or that the link is > dangerous? Despite what your browser says, the link itself isn't dangerous. Web browsers= aren't dangerous. Its USERS that are dangerous. If it=E2=80=99s phishing it its relying on you putting in a password from ano= ther site, or in selling you something like e-currency. (bitcoin is down again today) So before touching any high voltage capacitor best practice is to a discharge= resistor across the terminals and not rely on time or another person to disc= harge it.=20 So before putting your username and password into a web site it=E2=80=99s a g= ood idea to check the whole URL matches what you expect. Often such e-mails will try and convince you something is time critical so in= this case " expires in 24 hrs time. This is to panic you into not making such checks.... ... personally, I recommend a password manager. The you don't know any passwo= rds and can't put them in by accident, and it knows which passwords match whi= ch site URL so it won't put them in a phishing site.... >=20 > ;) >=20 > Sellam Dave --===============5531618417598769091==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sat Jul 8 13:53:42 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2023 15:36:27 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5062266351309039869==" --===============5062266351309039869== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jul 08, 2023 at 12:49:43PM +1000, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > To be completely honest, Electrotechnology students with 415v DC bench > supplies and HV caps all learnt very quickly not to catch something when > somebody threw it to you. Old electricians wisdom: "Be wary of honking great capacitors, lest they bite thee in the arse" ;-) > Ahhh - The folly of youth :-) Was fun, though ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============5062266351309039869==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sat Jul 8 14:09:35 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2023 09:09:30 -0500 Message-ID: <1453746293.959446.1688825370038@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3232096275406186176==" --===============3232096275406186176== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 07/08/2023 8:36 AM CDT Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Jul 08, 2023 at 12:49:43PM +1000, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > To be completely honest, Electrotechnology students with 415v DC bench > > supplies and HV caps all learnt very quickly not to catch something when > > somebody threw it to you. > Old electricians wisdom: "Be wary of honking great capacitors, lest they > bite thee in the arse" ;-) >=20 > > http://wrcooke.net/electronics/ten_commandments.html --===============3232096275406186176==-- From jim@photojim.ca Sat Jul 8 20:05:05 2023 From: Jim MacKenzie To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Ham Radio Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2023 13:56:53 -0600 Message-ID: <6c912e63-e13a-9b06-c760-feffab4c9057@photojim.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1284885631768859841==" --===============1284885631768859841== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just want to jump in that I'm also a CCer who is a ham. I'm on a couple of Facebook ham radio groups, and there are a few decent forums, but one of the best places to talk about ham radio is on the radio itself. If you can find a local repeater that enough hams monitor, it's not hard to get a conversation going about what to do next. 73 Jim VE5EV On 2023-07-06 10:49, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > Where are you located? There is a number of groups all over the range > of activities that hams do and in various social media. > > Please free to email me off list if you want to get more info. > > 73 de Nigel ve3id > > > On 2023-07-06 12:33, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: >> If you are specifically into RTTY, there is the greenkeys list. I am >> not a >> ham, but I collect and repair teletypes, so I am active on there. >> >> -Eric >> >> On Thu, Jul 6, 2023, 11:30 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> I know this is off topic, but I think there are a number of hams here. >>> >>> Looking to get back into it but have some questions. >>> >>> >>> Now that the a**holes have completely trashed all the USENET ham radio >>> >>> groups where do hams go for the kinds of discussions that used to be >>> there? >>> >>> >>> bill >>> >>> >>> --===============1284885631768859841==-- From classiccmp@earthlink.net Sat Jul 8 23:12:06 2023 From: "David C. Jenner" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Ham Radio Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2023 16:06:54 -0700 Message-ID: <0070bd39-f9a9-d196-33f8-c5bb3ca277b0@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <0bb301d9b0a8$37a2c9f0$a6e85dd0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7941253785575689039==" --===============7941253785575689039== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are numerous Ham Radio groups at Groups.io: https://groups.io If you know what you are after, search for it. If you're not sure,=20 search for "ham radio". I belong to about 44 ham radio groups there. 73, Dave K7DCJ On 7/7/23 12:54 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > Bill, > There are moderated groups, but many don't want to use them. Not sure why, = delays in posting etc. > As most of the noxious people are consistent in posting ids some kill filte= rs can fix. > Dave > G4UGM >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2023 5:31 PM >> To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >> Cc: Bill Gunshannon >> Subject: [cctalk] OT: Ham Radio >> >> >> >> I know this is off topic, but I think there are a number of hams here. >> >> Looking to get back into it but have some questions. >> >> >> Now that the a**holes have completely trashed all the USENET ham radio >> >> groups where do hams go for the kinds of discussions that used to be there? >> >> >> bill >> >=20 >=20 --===============7941253785575689039==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Sun Jul 9 03:08:21 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2023 23:08:05 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4388787696765942570==" --===============4388787696765942570== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:26 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I am going throw out a Jim Butterfield too I never got to meet him or correspond with him directly, but through his articles and his work with TORPUG, he absolutely had a huge indirect influence on my early years. I did learn plenty from Don Lancaster too, but it was more general knowledge than anything. I don't think I ever read something of his that I didn't learn something from. -ethan --===============4388787696765942570==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Sun Jul 9 14:10:25 2023 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Ham Radio Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2023 21:05:49 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55807EF8CCEB81D985A34CE9ED2CA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2718781245511679960==" --===============2718781245511679960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Threes this discord server where there is a nice ham community but most of th= e groups I=E2=80=99ve found are on Facebook.=20 It=E2=80=99s fun to combine both hobbies like I=E2=80=99ve been computer cont= rolling one of my old rigs with a apple 2 and using a C64 in conjunction as a= rtty terminal. So many people take joy from seeing what crazy things I do ne= xt.=20 M7BLJ.=20 > On 6 Jul 2023, at 17:31, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 > I know this is off topic, but I think there are a number of hams here. >=20 > Looking to get back into it but have some questions. >=20 >=20 > Now that the a**holes have completely trashed all the USENET ham radio >=20 > groups where do hams go for the kinds of discussions that used to be there? >=20 >=20 > bill >=20 >=20 --===============2718781245511679960==-- From djenner@earthlink.net Sun Jul 9 14:10:38 2023 From: "David C. Jenner" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Ham Radio Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2023 15:32:24 -0700 Message-ID: <1bee0a01-7f9d-5632-294d-11bf61f9e249@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55807EF8CCEB81D985A34CE9ED2CA=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3739285542336160158==" --===============3739285542336160158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are numerous Ham Radio groups at Groups.io: https://groups.io If you know what you are after, search for it. If you're not sure, search for "ham radio". I belong to about 44 ham radio groups there. 73, Dave K7DCJ On 7/6/23 9:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > I know this is off topic, but I think there are a number of hams here. > > Looking to get back into it but have some questions. > > > Now that the a**holes have completely trashed all the USENET ham radio > > groups where do hams go for the kinds of discussions that used to be there? > > > bill > > --===============3739285542336160158==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Jul 9 15:38:49 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 16:38:41 +0100 Message-ID: <000001d9b27b$70715f60$51541e20$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4142852666423940720==" --===============4142852666423940720== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I have a non-functioning VT100. I think I may have isolated the problem to an Intel 8228 chip (or 88228, the schematic says 8228, the part is marked 88228C). Certainly, the part gets a bit hot and it doesn't seem to be outputting anything on the I/O W pin (pin 27) despite activity on STSTB (pin 1), DBIN (pin 4) and WR (Pin 3). There is no activity on the HLDA input though, but I am not sure if that is required because I think the firmware is just trying to send its status to the keyboard LEDs. I can find a brief datasheet for the 8228 but it doesn't tell me the logic for producing the I/O W signal, so I am not sure if it is behaving as it should. Does anyone have more comprehensive information on how the 8228 is supposed to work? I have dumped the ROMs and been able to capture the ROM reads and they match the disassembled code, so I think the 8080 CPU itself is working. Thanks Rob --===============4142852666423940720==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Jul 9 16:12:28 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 17:12:21 +0100 Message-ID: <000501d9b280$246001d0$6d200570$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <000001d9b27b$70715f60$51541e20$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2034509100797085145==" --===============2034509100797085145== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually I have just found a more detailed description in the Intel 8080 Microcomputer Systems Users Manual 1975, but it still doesn't tell me exactly how it works. It isn't completely clear to me if it needs HLDA to be asserted for I/O W to be asserted. > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2023 4:39 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: Rob Jarratt > Subject: [cctalk] VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 > > Hello, > > > > I have a non-functioning VT100. I think I may have isolated the problem to an > Intel 8228 chip (or 88228, the schematic says 8228, the part is marked > 88228C). Certainly, the part gets a bit hot and it doesn't seem to be > outputting anything on the I/O W pin (pin 27) despite activity on STSTB (pin > 1), DBIN (pin 4) and WR (Pin 3). There is no activity on the HLDA input > though, but I am not sure if that is required because I think the firmware is > just trying to send its status to the keyboard LEDs. > > > > I can find a brief datasheet for the 8228 but it doesn't tell me the logic for > producing the I/O W signal, so I am not sure if it is behaving as it should. > Does anyone have more comprehensive information on how the 8228 is > supposed to work? > > > > I have dumped the ROMs and been able to capture the ROM reads and they > match the disassembled code, so I think the 8080 CPU itself is working. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob --===============2034509100797085145==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Sun Jul 9 16:26:05 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 16:18:24 +0000 Message-ID: <-ZvCz8o8O2fS05WPSoNOSteBMoJq8vsox5_M8eVmoGjCOD6BHJhJOCOaneZbWu3TIkbSgzFLv43CHa6ttzAFWunA3WAGY5sRTUCQ7yrrYHw=@glitchwrks.com> In-Reply-To: <000501d9b280$246001d0$6d200570$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1179837239357217194==" --===============1179837239357217194== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HLDA should be deasserted, that puts the processor in a DMA mode where it rel= eases all the control signals. I/O W is asserted low when OUT is high and the low WR pulse comes along. It's= both status and timing, coming out of the 8228. You would probably do well seeing if MEMR and MEMW are asserting. If the prog= ram is running off due to e.g. bad RAM, ROM bitrot, etc. you may never see th= e I/O lines assert. Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, July 9th, 2023 at 12:12, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Actually I have just found a more detailed description in the Intel 8080 > Microcomputer Systems Users Manual 1975, but it still doesn't tell me > exactly how it works. It isn't completely clear to me if it needs HLDA to be > asserted for I/O W to be asserted. >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rob Jarratt via cctalk cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2023 4:39 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > Cc: Rob Jarratt robert.jarratt(a)ntlworld.com > > Subject: [cctalk] VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 > >=20 > > Hello, > >=20 > > I have a non-functioning VT100. I think I may have isolated the problem to >=20 > an >=20 > > Intel 8228 chip (or 88228, the schematic says 8228, the part is marked > > 88228C). Certainly, the part gets a bit hot and it doesn't seem to be > > outputting anything on the I/O W pin (pin 27) despite activity on STSTB >=20 > (pin >=20 > > 1), DBIN (pin 4) and WR (Pin 3). There is no activity on the HLDA input > > though, but I am not sure if that is required because I think the firmware >=20 > is >=20 > > just trying to send its status to the keyboard LEDs. > >=20 > > I can find a brief datasheet for the 8228 but it doesn't tell me the logic >=20 > for >=20 > > producing the I/O W signal, so I am not sure if it is behaving as it >=20 > should. >=20 > > Does anyone have more comprehensive information on how the 8228 is > > supposed to work? > >=20 > > I have dumped the ROMs and been able to capture the ROM reads and they > > match the disassembled code, so I think the 8080 CPU itself is working. > >=20 > > Thanks > >=20 > > Rob --===============1179837239357217194==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Sun Jul 9 18:54:45 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Talking PDP11 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 14:46:27 -0400 Message-ID: <5bf0236e-6233-c182-d0a9-2295c3621141@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2125614795770840510==" --===============2125614795770840510== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a PDP-11/53 and have just started playing with an AAV11-C D/A board.  It is a 4 channel D/A convertor with 12 bit resolution. Can it be used to play an audio bit stream? Here is simple code used to see if the thing was actually working:     .title AAV11 D/A test     ;     .asect     dbr0 = 170440     .=1000 start:     mov #7777,r0     4096 value to R0     mov #dbr0,r1     first D/A buffer out loop:    mov r0,(r1)    transfer value in r0 to D/A out     dec r0        subtract 1 from D/A value     bne loop     br start        loop back to start I was surprised to see that it took ~34 ms to run through all the numbers from 0-7777, that is about 34 Hz.  The manual says the 'settling time' is 6 microseconds.  Is this fast enough for audio? How would you convert a modern audio file into 12 bit integers? Doug --===============2125614795770840510==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sun Jul 9 19:31:13 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 14:31:08 -0500 Message-ID: <1854961795.1058394.1688931068143@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <5bf0236e-6233-c182-d0a9-2295c3621141@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6988935745123838844==" --===============6988935745123838844== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 07/09/2023 1:46 PM CDT Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > I was surprised to see that it took ~34 ms to run through all the > numbers from 0-7777, that is about 34 Hz. The manual says the 'settling > time' is 6 microseconds. Is this fast enough for audio? >=20 > How would you convert a modern audio file into 12 bit integers? >=20 > Doug If you put out 4096 samples in in 34 ms, that means you are putting out ~139,= 000 samples per second. Telephone audio is generally 8000 samples per second= . CD quality is 44,100. So you can easily put samples out fast enough. If = you just feed a bitstream to the DAC you shouldn't have any problems. If you= try to do any processing in between, ymmv. There are various programs around that will convert different audio media to = just about anything. Take a look at Audacity. I "think" it will do what you= want. https://www.audacityteam.org/ It's cross platform, but I don't thin= k PDP-11 is one of the ones it runs on :-) Will --===============6988935745123838844==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Jul 9 19:34:59 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 14:34:54 -0500 Message-ID: <6f59eddd-44de-bd50-f01c-ed2fa7b28c12@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <5bf0236e-6233-c182-d0a9-2295c3621141@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0897186993820713384==" --===============0897186993820713384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/9/23 13:46, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I have a PDP-11/53 and have just started playing with an > AAV11-C D/A board.  It is a 4 channel D/A convertor with > 12 bit resolution. > > Can it be used to play an audio bit stream? > > Here is simple code used to see if the thing was actually > working: > >     .title AAV11 D/A test >     ; >     .asect > >     dbr0 = 170440 > >     .=1000 > start: >     mov #7777,r0     4096 value to R0 >     mov #dbr0,r1     first D/A buffer out > > loop:    mov r0,(r1)    transfer value in r0 to D/A out >     dec r0        subtract 1 from D/A value >     bne loop > >     br start        loop back to start > > I was surprised to see that it took ~34 ms to run through > all the numbers from 0-7777, that is about 34 Hz.  The > manual says the 'settling time' is 6 microseconds.  Is > this fast enough for audio? > > How would you convert a modern audio file into 12 bit > integers? Without DMA, it is pretty hard to do audio.  But, if I calculated it right, 4096 samples /0.34 seconds, that's 120470 samples/second.  Of course, with standard 32 K word address space, you only can get about 1/4 second of audio in the available memory space, without switching memory space with the MMU. Jon --===============0897186993820713384==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Jul 9 19:51:33 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 20:51:25 +0100 Message-ID: <000601d9b29e$bf008700$3d019500$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C-ZvCz8o8O2fS05WPSoNOSteBMoJq8vsox5=5FM8eVmoGjCOD6B?= =?utf-8?q?HJhJOCOaneZbWu3TIkbSgzFLv43CHa6ttzAFWunA3WAGY5sRTUCQ7yrrYHw=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7786936341877058851==" --===============7786936341877058851== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for confirming that HLDA doesn't need to be asserted at this stage. I looked at the address trace and matched it to the disassembled ROM. My ROM = image compares to another ROM image that has been posted online at 9track.net= , so I am fairly confident that the CPU and ROM are OK. I don't think that the RAM test is passing though, it might not even be able = to start it, I have not traced this sufficiently to be sure, but it is in a l= oop at one point, but not before sending data to the keyboard UART. That is w= hat made me look at the 8228 because I traced back that far to where somethin= g did not seem be happening correctly. In fact, I now realise that I should have checked MEM WR and MEM RD. I can se= e that MEM WR is never asserted, but MEM RD is asserted. I do see WR being as= serted on the input side immediately after startup, but then it isn't asserte= d again. It is possible that the firmware is in a loop before it gets to the RAM test,= possibly because the 8228 driver is not working. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Chapman > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2023 5:18 PM > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 >=20 > HLDA should be deasserted, that puts the processor in a DMA mode where it > releases all the control signals. >=20 > I/O W is asserted low when OUT is high and the low WR pulse comes along. > It's both status and timing, coming out of the 8228. >=20 > You would probably do well seeing if MEMR and MEMW are asserting. If the > program is running off due to e.g. bad RAM, ROM bitrot, etc. you may never > see the I/O lines assert. >=20 > Thanks, > Jonathan >=20 > ------- Original Message ------- > On Sunday, July 9th, 2023 at 12:12, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >=20 > > > > > > Actually I have just found a more detailed description in the Intel > > 8080 Microcomputer Systems Users Manual 1975, but it still doesn't > > tell me exactly how it works. It isn't completely clear to me if it > > needs HLDA to be asserted for I/O W to be asserted. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rob Jarratt via cctalk cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2023 4:39 PM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > > Cc: Rob Jarratt robert.jarratt(a)ntlworld.com > > > Subject: [cctalk] VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I have a non-functioning VT100. I think I may have isolated the > > > problem to > > > > an > > > > > Intel 8228 chip (or 88228, the schematic says 8228, the part is > > > marked 88228C). Certainly, the part gets a bit hot and it doesn't > > > seem to be outputting anything on the I/O W pin (pin 27) despite > > > activity on STSTB > > > > (pin > > > > > 1), DBIN (pin 4) and WR (Pin 3). There is no activity on the HLDA > > > input though, but I am not sure if that is required because I think > > > the firmware > > > > is > > > > > just trying to send its status to the keyboard LEDs. > > > > > > I can find a brief datasheet for the 8228 but it doesn't tell me the > > > logic > > > > for > > > > > producing the I/O W signal, so I am not sure if it is behaving as it > > > > should. > > > > > Does anyone have more comprehensive information on how the 8228 is > > > supposed to work? > > > > > > I have dumped the ROMs and been able to capture the ROM reads and > > > they match the disassembled code, so I think the 8080 CPU itself is > working. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rob --===============7786936341877058851==-- From tpisek@pobox.com Sun Jul 9 20:00:30 2023 From: Todd Pisek To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 1-click exploits was Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 14:51:22 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2348487329993378451==" --===============2348487329993378451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Be aware that clicking on a malicious url can result on malware or spyware be= ing installed on your machine without any further action on your part. All br= owsers have vulnerabilities. The most famous of these was the older version o= f Pegasus by NSO back in the 2014-2016 timeframe. These so called 1-click exp= loits are well known to bad actors. It=E2=80=99s a continuous cat and mouse g= ame between exploit writers and infosec. For the interested, look at this rep= ort regarding Apple and the =E2=80=9CTrident=E2=80=9D series of exploits from= 2016. https://info.lookout.com/rs/051-ESQ-475/images/pegasus-exploits-technical-det= ails.pdf =E2=80=94-Todd P.S. Exploits have evolved considerably since Trident and now include 0-click= exploits. See Google=E2=80=99s Project Zero for instance. --===============2348487329993378451==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sun Jul 9 20:09:57 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 20:09:44 +0000 Message-ID: <53ac0fbef69342bbbf2595cbd08b067e@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <5bf0236e-6233-c182-d0a9-2295c3621141@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6595552745517521228==" --===============6595552745517521228== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You just did use it to play "audio" :<) The 6 us settling time corresponds to a sampling rate of ~167 kHz, not that y= ou will ever get there or would wish to. The theoretical (real) sampling rate required for a given bandwith is Fs =3D = 2 Bw. That requires brick wall filters and it is a lot of work to get close = without significant distortion. These old DACs are all but certain to use la= dder circuits [see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor_ladder] the se= ttlng time will mostly come from the output buffer [see e.g. https://www.anal= og.com/en/technical-articles/ltc1668-dac-lt1807-opamp-achieve-90ns-settling-t= o-16bits-83db-sfdr-small-footprint.html for bleeding edge examples]. To see = something other than ringing on a scope you want at least 10 samples per cycl= e, e.g. for 3 kHz bandwidth (i.e. 0 - 3 kHz frequency coverage) output at 30 = kHz or greater. A low pass (reconstruction in the argot) filter will round o= ff the corners - set the corner just above the passband DMA, a local FIFO or at least double buffering are the minimum to avoid sampl= e jitter. On basic hardware you will probably have to do what you can with a= sampling clock derived from the RTC card, from 10 MHz you could get an inter= upt at 40 kHz or 25 kHz but maybe not 30 kHz. The interupt then controls the= play out from a table or disk ;<) For testing you can do quite a lot with a single cycle sine wave table in mem= ory. Say you are playing out at Fs =3D 30 kHz, and you have a 30 k sample ta= ble. By varying the step through the table from 15k to 1 you can alter the o= utput frequency from 15 kHz to 1 Hz in 1 Hz increments; i.e. output frequency= =3D Fs * stride / table length. From a VQ look at the AAV11 docs it uses the bottom 12 bits, doubtless <11> i= s ms, hopefully it will like 2's complement numbers and the analog offset vol= tage will be trimmed for bipolar signals. Have fun and good luck Martin -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 09 July 2023 19:46 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Douglas Taylor Subject: [cctalk] Talking PDP11 I have a PDP-11/53 and have just started playing with an AAV11-C D/A board.= =C2=A0 It is a 4 channel D/A convertor with 12 bit resolution. Can it be used to play an audio bit stream? Here is simple code used to see if the thing was actually working: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .title AAV11 D/A test =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0; =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0.asect =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0dbr0 =3D 170440 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0.=3D1000 start: =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0mov #7777,r0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A04096 value to R0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0mov #dbr0,r1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0first D/A buffer out loop:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 mov r0,(r1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transfer value in r0 to= D/A out =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0dec r0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 subtract 1 fr= om D/A value =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0bne loop =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0br start=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 loop back t= o start I was surprised to see that it took ~34 ms to run through all the numbers fro= m 0-7777, that is about 34 Hz.=C2=A0 The manual says the 'settling time' is 6= microseconds.=C2=A0 Is this fast enough for audio? How would you convert a modern audio file into 12 bit integers? Doug --===============6595552745517521228==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jul 9 20:19:50 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1-click exploits was Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 13:12:45 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8340953352031089917==" --===============8340953352031089917== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/9/23 12:51, Todd Pisek via cctalk wrote: > Be aware that clicking on a malicious url can result on malware or spyware = being installed on your machine without any further action on your part. All = browsers have vulnerabilities. The most famous of these was the older version= of Pegasus by NSO back in the 2014-2016 timeframe. These so called 1-click e= xploits are well known to bad actors. It=E2=80=99s a continuous cat and mouse= game between exploit writers and infosec. For the interested, look at this r= eport regarding Apple and the =E2=80=9CTrident=E2=80=9D series of exploits fr= om 2016. >=20 > https://info.lookout.com/rs/051-ESQ-475/images/pegasus-exploits-technical-d= etails.pdf >=20 > =E2=80=94-Todd >=20 It helps if you're running a version of *nix....and not fenestrae. --Chuck --===============8340953352031089917==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Sun Jul 9 21:09:09 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1-click exploits was Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 21:08:58 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3495734688821869665==" --===============3495734688821869665== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > It helps if you're running a version of *nix....and not fenestrae. Helps, but is not the near cure-all it was at one point, especially for the l= arger/more popular distros! Thanks, Jonathan --===============3495734688821869665==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Sun Jul 9 23:21:05 2023 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Problems with getting your newslatter Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 19:20:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3582480386984923843==" --===============3582480386984923843== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello sir, I used to get your newsletter but no longer...I understand there are problems... I would be most interested in getting your newsletter again. Many thanks, Murray 🙂 --===============3582480386984923843==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 10 00:07:05 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 19:06:56 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <142301d9b17e$7af4cec0$70de6c40$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3771263274597962742==" --===============3771263274597962742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/8/23 4:27=E2=80=AFAM, dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com wrote: > ... sorry sent this to soon... Things happen. > Despite what your browser says, the link itself isn't dangerous. Web browse= rs aren't dangerous. Its USERS that are dangerous. All the single, or worse zero click, attack vectors tend to imply that=20 browsers (or software in general) definitely do have a hand in this. > So before putting your username and password into a web site it=E2=80=99s a= good idea to check the whole URL matches what you expect. Sadly, some of the aforementioned vectors (bugs) have allowed malicious=20 sites to change the appearance of the address in the URL bar. > ... personally, I recommend a password manager. The you don't know=20 > any passwords and can't put them in by accident, and it knows which=20 > passwords match which site URL so it won't put them in a phishing=20 > site.... +1 on password managers being a good idea. PSA: Not all password managers are created equally. Grant. . . . --===============3771263274597962742==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 10 00:10:18 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1-click exploits was Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 19:10:12 -0500 Message-ID: <5d3b857c-b081-4589-0c41-29e798418e78@tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9004331982387838539==" --===============9004331982387838539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/9/23 3:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It helps if you're running a version of *nix....and not fenestrae. Not as much as one would hope. Android (Linux) and iOS (BSD derivative thus probably has a better clain to Unix) have had 1-click or the dreaded 0-click vulnerabilities (bugs) repeatedly throughout their life cycle. It's not just desktop software. *nix isn't and end-all be-all cure. Grant. . . . --===============9004331982387838539==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Mon Jul 10 00:22:00 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 19:21:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5280563910447062478==" --===============5280563910447062478== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Jul 9, 2023, 7:07 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > PSA: Not all password managers are created equally. > It can be a buzz kill if you visit about:logins on Firefox. > --===============5280563910447062478==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 10 00:46:58 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 19:46:49 -0500 Message-ID: <51dfe3c8-7ffd-f938-e9df-7479ff9078df@tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9130979001648646162==" --===============9130979001648646162== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/9/23 7:21 PM, John Herron wrote: > It can be a buzz kill if you visit about:logins on Firefox. Yes, that can be a bit of a surprise to someone not in the know. But if you stop and think about it for a few minutes, any and all password managers absolutely MUST have access to the unencrypted passwords. Because it can't do it's job if it doesn't have access to the unencrypted passwords. Grant. . . . --===============9130979001648646162==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Mon Jul 10 01:20:46 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 21:19:55 -0400 Message-ID: <174838d0-6001-d809-c8dd-01af05667f7d@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <53ac0fbef69342bbbf2595cbd08b067e@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4823481932004882296==" --===============4823481932004882296== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow! Actual engineers responding... It looks like I could only do the most rudimentary audio. 1. Sample Rate: You got maybe 20K samples to store in lower memory.=C2=A0 At = 7KHz sample rate that would allow 3 seconds of audio.=C2=A0 Voice only. 2. Samples: They must be 12 bits. Converting a modern audio clip=20 requires, band filtering, resampling and mapping to 12 bit integers.=C2=A0=20 Could be done in python, they have libraries. 3. Clocking output:=C2=A0 I have a KMV11, but never programmed=C2=A0 around i= t. 4. Amplify output: AAV11-C produces -10 to +10 volts, have to divide=20 this down for input to an audio amp. In the end I will have undone all the advances made in digital audio in=20 the last 30 to 40 years. Doug On 7/9/2023 4:09 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > You just did use it to play "audio" :<) > > The 6 us settling time corresponds to a sampling rate of ~167 kHz, not that= you will ever get there or would wish to. > > The theoretical (real) sampling rate required for a given bandwith is Fs = =3D 2 Bw. That requires brick wall filters and it is a lot of work to get cl= ose without significant distortion. These old DACs are all but certain to us= e ladder circuits [see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor_ladder] th= e settlng time will mostly come from the output buffer [see e.g. https://www.= analog.com/en/technical-articles/ltc1668-dac-lt1807-opamp-achieve-90ns-settli= ng-to-16bits-83db-sfdr-small-footprint.html for bleeding edge examples]. To = see something other than ringing on a scope you want at least 10 samples per = cycle, e.g. for 3 kHz bandwidth (i.e. 0 - 3 kHz frequency coverage) output at= 30 kHz or greater. A low pass (reconstruction in the argot) filter will rou= nd off the corners - set the corner just above the passband > > DMA, a local FIFO or at least double buffering are the minimum to avoid sam= ple jitter. On basic hardware you will probably have to do what you can with= a sampling clock derived from the RTC card, from 10 MHz you could get an int= erupt at 40 kHz or 25 kHz but maybe not 30 kHz. The interupt then controls t= he play out from a table or disk ;<) > > For testing you can do quite a lot with a single cycle sine wave table in m= emory. Say you are playing out at Fs =3D 30 kHz, and you have a 30 k sample = table. By varying the step through the table from 15k to 1 you can alter the= output frequency from 15 kHz to 1 Hz in 1 Hz increments; i.e. output frequen= cy =3D Fs * stride / table length. > > From a VQ look at the AAV11 docs it uses the bottom 12 bits, doubtless <11= > is ms, hopefully it will like 2's complement numbers and the analog offset = voltage will be trimmed for bipolar signals. > > Have fun and good luck > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 09 July 2023 19:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Douglas Taylor > Subject: [cctalk] Talking PDP11 > > I have a PDP-11/53 and have just started playing with an AAV11-C D/A board.= =C2=A0 It is a 4 channel D/A convertor with 12 bit resolution. > > Can it be used to play an audio bit stream? > > Here is simple code used to see if the thing was actually working: > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .title AAV11 D/A test > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0; > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0.asect > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0dbr0 =3D 170440 > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0.=3D1000 > start: > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0mov #7777,r0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A04096 value to R0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0mov #dbr0,r1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0first D/A buffer = out > > loop:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 mov r0,(r1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transfer value in r0 = to D/A out > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0dec r0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 subtract 1= from D/A value > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0bne loop > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0br start=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 loop bac= k to start > > I was surprised to see that it took ~34 ms to run through all the numbers f= rom 0-7777, that is about 34 Hz.=C2=A0 The manual says the 'settling time' is= 6 microseconds.=C2=A0 Is this fast enough for audio? > > How would you convert a modern audio file into 12 bit integers? > > Doug > --===============4823481932004882296==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Mon Jul 10 03:07:54 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 03:07:45 +0000 Message-ID: <2e309577388349fa9c9ae50a5956aea7@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <174838d0-6001-d809-c8dd-01af05667f7d@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3733830382555118095==" --===============3733830382555118095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug You have the essence of what it can do and how it might do it, an old iron PD= P-11 / LSI-11 can't organically do the signal processing necessary to go from= a compact signal representation to audio. That said you could use a one bit= output, which would for efficiency require a serialiser, to drive a sigma de= lta converter, e.g. https://digilent.com/shop/pmod-i2s2-stereo-audio-input-an= d-output/, to convert a word stream to sound. Generating the I2S bit stream = is of course an XFU, probably doable from a DRV11 type interface, with a fair= bit of logic or your favorite microcontroller as intermediary. A 7 kHz sample rate will not be easily achieved, unless you can use an extern= al clock or plug in an "optimal" oscillator, e.g. the classic example (but no= t for this requirement) is one running at a multiple of baud rate frequencies= , 12M288 Hz say. On these old boards, frequency =3D oscillator / prescaler /= divisor. Generally, the divisor is the "round" number and the frequency is = the fractional mess. Also, the prescalers may be powers of two, ten, or 1/2/= 5 : YMMV. The sort of thing you could demonstrate as audio output from your hardware is= either Morse or audio composed of phonemes. The Morse would require some ev= olution of the test generator I described and a little tapering of the attack= / decay of the di dah dit sounds to avoid harshness, or could be done from c= anned waveforms (returning to 0V). The phonemes might generate text to speec= h of 1980's (i.e. contemporary period) standard. Have fun Martin -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 10 July 2023 02:20 To: Martin Bishop via cctalk Cc: Douglas Taylor Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Wow! Actual engineers responding... It looks like I could only do the most rudimentary audio. 1. Sample Rate: You got maybe 20K samples to store in lower memory.=C2=A0 At = 7KHz sample rate that would allow 3 seconds of audio.=C2=A0 Voice only. 2. Samples: They must be 12 bits. Converting a modern audio clip requires, ba= nd filtering, resampling and mapping to 12 bit integers. Could be done in pyt= hon, they have libraries. 3. Clocking output:=C2=A0 I have a KMV11, but never programmed=C2=A0 around i= t. 4. Amplify output: AAV11-C produces -10 to +10 volts, have to divide this dow= n for input to an audio amp. In the end I will have undone all the advances made in digital audio in the l= ast 30 to 40 years. Doug On 7/9/2023 4:09 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > You just did use it to play "audio" :<) > > The 6 us settling time corresponds to a sampling rate of ~167 kHz, not that= you will ever get there or would wish to. > > The theoretical (real) sampling rate required for a given bandwith is=20 > Fs =3D 2 Bw. That requires brick wall filters and it is a lot of work=20 > to get close without significant distortion. These old DACs are all=20 > but certain to use ladder circuits [see e.g.=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor_ladder] the settlng time will=20 > mostly come from the output buffer [see e.g.=20 > https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/ltc1668-dac-lt1807-opamp- > achieve-90ns-settling-to-16bits-83db-sfdr-small-footprint.html for=20 > bleeding edge examples]. To see something other than ringing on a=20 > scope you want at least 10 samples per cycle, e.g. for 3 kHz bandwidth=20 > (i.e. 0 - 3 kHz frequency coverage) output at 30 kHz or greater. A=20 > low pass (reconstruction in the argot) filter will round off the=20 > corners - set the corner just above the passband > > DMA, a local FIFO or at least double buffering are the minimum to=20 > avoid sample jitter. On basic hardware you will probably have to do=20 > what you can with a sampling clock derived from the RTC card, from 10=20 > MHz you could get an interupt at 40 kHz or 25 kHz but maybe not 30=20 > kHz. The interupt then controls the play out from a table or disk ;<) > > For testing you can do quite a lot with a single cycle sine wave table in m= emory. Say you are playing out at Fs =3D 30 kHz, and you have a 30 k sample = table. By varying the step through the table from 15k to 1 you can alter the= output frequency from 15 kHz to 1 Hz in 1 Hz increments; i.e. output frequen= cy =3D Fs * stride / table length. > > From a VQ look at the AAV11 docs it uses the bottom 12 bits, doubtless <11= > is ms, hopefully it will like 2's complement numbers and the analog offset = voltage will be trimmed for bipolar signals. > > Have fun and good luck > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 09 July 2023 19:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts=20 > > Cc: Douglas Taylor > Subject: [cctalk] Talking PDP11 > > I have a PDP-11/53 and have just started playing with an AAV11-C D/A board.= =C2=A0 It is a 4 channel D/A convertor with 12 bit resolution. > > Can it be used to play an audio bit stream? > > Here is simple code used to see if the thing was actually working: > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .title AAV11 D/A test > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0; > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0.asect > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0dbr0 =3D 170440 > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0.=3D1000 > start: > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0mov #7777,r0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A04096 value to R0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0mov #dbr0,r1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0first D/A buffer = out > > loop:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 mov r0,(r1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transfer value in r0 = to D/A out > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0dec r0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 subtract 1= from D/A value > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0bne loop > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0br start=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 loop bac= k to start > > I was surprised to see that it took ~34 ms to run through all the numbers f= rom 0-7777, that is about 34 Hz.=C2=A0 The manual says the 'settling time' is= 6 microseconds.=C2=A0 Is this fast enough for audio? > > How would you convert a modern audio file into 12 bit integers? > > Doug > --===============3733830382555118095==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Mon Jul 10 11:59:51 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1-click exploits was Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 04:50:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6899906936346726206==" --===============6899906936346726206== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 9 Jul 2023, Todd Pisek via cctalk wrote: > Be aware that clicking on a malicious url can result on malware or spyware = being installed on your machine without any further action on your part. All = browsers have vulnerabilities. The most famous of these was the older version= of Pegasus by NSO back in the 2014-2016 timeframe. These so called 1-click e= xploits are well known to bad actors. It?s a continuous cat and mouse game be= tween exploit writers and infosec. For the interested, look at this report re= garding Apple and the ?Trident? series of exploits from 2016. > > https://info.lookout.com/rs/051-ESQ-475/images/pegasus-exploits-technical-d= etails.pdf > Excellent advice. I'd also point out that malware can be served up by ad=20 networks, so it's also in your best interests to install the Privacy=20 Badger and U-Block Origin plugins to whatever browser you use. If you're /really/ paranoid, read email with Alpine. You'll never get=20 phished when it's painfully obvious where a link *really* goes. ;) g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6899906936346726206==-- From akirby03049@gmail.com Mon Jul 10 13:32:23 2023 From: Alan Kirby To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] A from-scratch PDP 11 OS - ruos Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 08:16:38 -0400 Message-ID: <6E6ACA9C-FFED-4134-8B3E-53E36B27FC68@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4676985458405172722==" --===============4676985458405172722== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A friend suggested that some in this group may have an interest in this. ruos stands for Retro Useless Operating System ruos is an OS for the long-obsolete PDP11/70 from Digital Equipment Corporati= on. ruos runs on the simh simulator for that machine. It was written complete= ly from scratch in C and assembler. On a modern machine, the kernel and user = code builds in a few seconds. Overview: It can run something less than 64 processes simultaneously with one user on t= he console and others on other serial ports. Equal priority CPU-bound tasks s= hare the CPU. The user program API includes a number of stdio-like C functions ruos was built using the gcc toolchain for the PDP11 (Thanks for those toolch= ain bug fixes Paul Koning!) Each user process is given exactly 64kB for code, data, heap, and stack and i= s (mostly) isolated from other processes Users access the OS using a very simple unix-like shell for command executio= n with pipes allowed It does not have its own file system but uses a proxy for file IO. The proxy = code (Python 3) is included. Communication between the OS and the proxy is via UDP/IPv4/Ethernet. Familiar user binaries include: cat, ps, echo, grep. Device status is provide= d by ds If a user tries to run a program that is not native to ruos, an attempt is ma= de to run it on the proxy. Using this mechanism, users can edit files or buil= d new programs (assuming the gcc toolchain is installed on the proxy and the = proxy is on the same machine as simh). It is accessible here: https://ajco...(a)bitbucket.org/ajcorbeil/ruos.git Regards, Alan Kirby --===============4676985458405172722==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Jul 10 13:33:59 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 08:31:09 -0500 Message-ID: <662f6022-92b4-6be5-2906-9bb61e8effbf@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <2e309577388349fa9c9ae50a5956aea7@emeritus-solutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3931020121679187677==" --===============3931020121679187677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug, You could also do some kind synthesizer using fixed frequencies and=20 pulse width modulation. It would not be that difficult to add attack and decay and even be=20 polyphonic. You could either use the keyboard for single tone with different keys to=20 change the PWM, Attack, Decay, white noise, pink noise, and volume of=20 each channel or you could write some kind of interpreter that would play=20 music from some kind of text file. Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2 MHZ=20 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. If you want to generate different waveforms they can be stored in memory=20 and the faster you cycle through them the higher the frequency.=C2=A0=20 However, the finer the resolution the greater the memory requirement. Square waves are the easiest to produce as they don't need waveform=20 tables.=C2=A0 Just remember you need to remember the Nyquist frequency. You=20 need to be writing to the D/A at at least double the frequency of the=20 tone you are trying to product.=C2=A0 However,=C2=A0 twice the frequency only= =20 allows you to produce square waves. I would look at the output of your program on an oscilloscope to see if=20 there is any high frequency artifacts that you might want to filter out=20 electronically. Have fun and please post some recordings. On 7/9/2023 10:07 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > Doug > > You have the essence of what it can do and how it might do it, an old iron = PDP-11 / LSI-11 can't organically do the signal processing necessary to go fr= om a compact signal representation to audio. That said you could use a one b= it output, which would for efficiency require a serialiser, to drive a sigma = delta converter, e.g. https://digilent.com/shop/pmod-i2s2-stereo-audio-input-= and-output/, to convert a word stream to sound. Generating the I2S bit strea= m is of course an XFU, probably doable from a DRV11 type interface, with a fa= ir bit of logic or your favorite microcontroller as intermediary. > > A 7 kHz sample rate will not be easily achieved, unless you can use an exte= rnal clock or plug in an "optimal" oscillator, e.g. the classic example (but = not for this requirement) is one running at a multiple of baud rate frequenci= es, 12M288 Hz say. On these old boards, frequency =3D oscillator / prescaler= / divisor. Generally, the divisor is the "round" number and the frequency i= s the fractional mess. Also, the prescalers may be powers of two, ten, or 1/= 2/5 : YMMV. > > The sort of thing you could demonstrate as audio output from your hardware = is either Morse or audio composed of phonemes. The Morse would require some = evolution of the test generator I described and a little tapering of the atta= ck / decay of the di dah dit sounds to avoid harshness, or could be done from= canned waveforms (returning to 0V). The phonemes might generate text to spe= ech of 1980's (i.e. contemporary period) standard. > > Have fun > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 10 July 2023 02:20 > To: Martin Bishop via cctalk > Cc: Douglas Taylor > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 > > Wow! Actual engineers responding... > > It looks like I could only do the most rudimentary audio. > > 1. Sample Rate: You got maybe 20K samples to store in lower memory.=C2=A0 A= t 7KHz sample rate that would allow 3 seconds of audio.=C2=A0 Voice only. > 2. Samples: They must be 12 bits. Converting a modern audio clip requires, = band filtering, resampling and mapping to 12 bit integers. Could be done in p= ython, they have libraries. > 3. Clocking output:=C2=A0 I have a KMV11, but never programmed=C2=A0 around= it. > 4. Amplify output: AAV11-C produces -10 to +10 volts, have to divide this d= own for input to an audio amp. > > In the end I will have undone all the advances made in digital audio in the= last 30 to 40 years. > > Doug > > On 7/9/2023 4:09 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >> You just did use it to play "audio" :<) >> >> The 6 us settling time corresponds to a sampling rate of ~167 kHz, not tha= t you will ever get there or would wish to. >> >> The theoretical (real) sampling rate required for a given bandwith is >> Fs =3D 2 Bw. That requires brick wall filters and it is a lot of work >> to get close without significant distortion. These old DACs are all >> but certain to use ladder circuits [see e.g. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor_ladder] the settlng time will >> mostly come from the output buffer [see e.g. >> https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/ltc1668-dac-lt1807-opamp- >> achieve-90ns-settling-to-16bits-83db-sfdr-small-footprint.html for >> bleeding edge examples]. To see something other than ringing on a >> scope you want at least 10 samples per cycle, e.g. for 3 kHz bandwidth >> (i.e. 0 - 3 kHz frequency coverage) output at 30 kHz or greater. A >> low pass (reconstruction in the argot) filter will round off the >> corners - set the corner just above the passband >> >> DMA, a local FIFO or at least double buffering are the minimum to >> avoid sample jitter. On basic hardware you will probably have to do >> what you can with a sampling clock derived from the RTC card, from 10 >> MHz you could get an interupt at 40 kHz or 25 kHz but maybe not 30 >> kHz. The interupt then controls the play out from a table or disk ;<) >> >> For testing you can do quite a lot with a single cycle sine wave table in = memory. Say you are playing out at Fs =3D 30 kHz, and you have a 30 k sample= table. By varying the step through the table from 15k to 1 you can alter th= e output frequency from 15 kHz to 1 Hz in 1 Hz increments; i.e. output freque= ncy =3D Fs * stride / table length. >> >> From a VQ look at the AAV11 docs it uses the bottom 12 bits, doubtless <= 11> is ms, hopefully it will like 2's complement numbers and the analog offse= t voltage will be trimmed for bipolar signals. >> >> Have fun and good luck >> >> Martin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] >> Sent: 09 July 2023 19:46 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Cc: Douglas Taylor >> Subject: [cctalk] Talking PDP11 >> >> I have a PDP-11/53 and have just started playing with an AAV11-C D/A board= .=C2=A0 It is a 4 channel D/A convertor with 12 bit resolution. >> >> Can it be used to play an audio bit stream? >> >> Here is simple code used to see if the thing was actually working: >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .title AAV11 D/A test >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0; >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0.asect >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0dbr0 =3D 170440 >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0.=3D1000 >> start: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0mov #7777,r0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A04096 value to R0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0mov #dbr0,r1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0first D/A buffe= r out >> >> loop:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 mov r0,(r1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transfer value in r0= to D/A out >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0dec r0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 subtract= 1 from D/A value >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0bne loop >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0br start=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 loop b= ack to start >> >> I was surprised to see that it took ~34 ms to run through all the numbers = from 0-7777, that is about 34 Hz.=C2=A0 The manual says the 'settling time' i= s 6 microseconds.=C2=A0 Is this fast enough for audio? >> >> How would you convert a modern audio file into 12 bit integers? >> >> Doug >> --===============3931020121679187677==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jul 10 13:41:15 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 09:41:06 -0400 Message-ID: <6D617E34-EF01-4A56-83BC-366FF6B55380@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <174838d0-6001-d809-c8dd-01af05667f7d@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5282007001392444672==" --===============5282007001392444672== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 9, 2023, at 9:19 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Wow! Actual engineers responding... >=20 > It looks like I could only do the most rudimentary audio. >=20 > 1. Sample Rate: You got maybe 20K samples to store in lower memory. At 7KH= z sample rate that would allow 3 seconds of audio. Voice only. > 2. Samples: They must be 12 bits. Converting a modern audio clip requires, = band filtering, resampling and mapping to 12 bit integers. Could be done in = python, they have libraries. > 3. Clocking output: I have a KMV11, but never programmed around it. > 4. Amplify output: AAV11-C produces -10 to +10 volts, have to divide this d= own for input to an audio amp. >=20 > In the end I will have undone all the advances made in digital audio in the= last 30 to 40 years. I'm reminded of a project I did in college in 1974, when I made a primitive g= raphics display using an X/Y oscilloscope driven by an AA-11. Since the mach= ine was a PDP-11/20 with 8 kW of memory, I decided to use the RC-11 disk as t= he refresh memory, doing DMA directly from disk to the D/A data CSR. So on the scenario here: the sample rate is clearly more than adequate. 12 b= its is not CD grade audio but not bad; for ears used to the distorions of com= pressed audio files it's probably good enough. =20 The PDP-11 certainly won't be able to decompress modern lossy compression fil= es. It should be fine with raw or nearly-raw files, which means you can conv= ert externally and feed the resulting files to the PDP-11. You could convert= to 16 bit raw mono with standard tools and then drop the bottom 4 bits. Ban= d filtering? Resampling? I don't know why you would want to do that, unless= there isn't a reasonable way to drive the device at the source file's data r= ate. For example, if you have a KW-11/P that's clearly doable. (Come to thi= nk of it, that 11/20 had a KW-11/P and I created BASIC extensions for it that= would allow sampling to be driven by that clock, at a rate of your choosing.) You can't fit a whole lot of data in 64 kW of memory, but that isn't needed. = That rate isn't all that high; it isn't hard to write a program that does do= uble buffering from a disk file to memory to the D/A. That makes a really ni= ce real time programming exercise. paul --===============5282007001392444672==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jul 10 13:55:14 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 06:54:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6D617E34-EF01-4A56-83BC-366FF6B55380@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1342706558890082740==" --===============1342706558890082740== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On my Apple ] [ with 48k memory I used to be able to sample audio from the cassette port and store about 30 seconds of audio that was fairly decent quality upon playback. With a 1MB RAM board installed I was able to sample the entire ~5 minutes of Led Zeppelin's Over The Hills And Far Away from their Houses of the Holy album. Sellam On Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 6:41 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jul 9, 2023, at 9:19 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Wow! Actual engineers responding... > > > > It looks like I could only do the most rudimentary audio. > > > > 1. Sample Rate: You got maybe 20K samples to store in lower memory. At > 7KHz sample rate that would allow 3 seconds of audio. Voice only. > > 2. Samples: They must be 12 bits. Converting a modern audio clip > requires, band filtering, resampling and mapping to 12 bit integers. Could > be done in python, they have libraries. > > 3. Clocking output: I have a KMV11, but never programmed around it. > > 4. Amplify output: AAV11-C produces -10 to +10 volts, have to divide > this down for input to an audio amp. > > > > In the end I will have undone all the advances made in digital audio in > the last 30 to 40 years. > > I'm reminded of a project I did in college in 1974, when I made a > primitive graphics display using an X/Y oscilloscope driven by an AA-11. > Since the machine was a PDP-11/20 with 8 kW of memory, I decided to use the > RC-11 disk as the refresh memory, doing DMA directly from disk to the D/A > data CSR. > > So on the scenario here: the sample rate is clearly more than adequate. > 12 bits is not CD grade audio but not bad; for ears used to the distorions > of compressed audio files it's probably good enough. > > The PDP-11 certainly won't be able to decompress modern lossy compression > files. It should be fine with raw or nearly-raw files, which means you can > convert externally and feed the resulting files to the PDP-11. You could > convert to 16 bit raw mono with standard tools and then drop the bottom 4 > bits. Band filtering? Resampling? I don't know why you would want to do > that, unless there isn't a reasonable way to drive the device at the source > file's data rate. For example, if you have a KW-11/P that's clearly > doable. (Come to think of it, that 11/20 had a KW-11/P and I created BASIC > extensions for it that would allow sampling to be driven by that clock, at > a rate of your choosing.) > > You can't fit a whole lot of data in 64 kW of memory, but that isn't > needed. That rate isn't all that high; it isn't hard to write a program > that does double buffering from a disk file to memory to the D/A. That > makes a really nice real time programming exercise. > > paul > > --===============1342706558890082740==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Jul 10 15:54:30 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 08:54:31 -0700 Message-ID: <007001d9b346$d1cc4c90$7564e5b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1537076662752315331==" --===============1537076662752315331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am wondering if anyone has a private or knows of a mirror for ftp.compaq.com that is older than 2014? All the ones I have found online, including the file at archive.org, are from 2014. By then a number of files and directories had been purged e.g. "/pub/supportinformation/techpubs" and "softlib1". I am looking for some old documentation and firmware for Compaq switches and Tape Libraries but if anyone has a full set of files I am happy to add them to a mirror. TIA! -Ali --===============1537076662752315331==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Mon Jul 10 16:19:25 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 12:19:14 -0400 Message-ID: <2d864229-93c0-57f8-5317-001d49802fdb@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6D617E34-EF01-4A56-83BC-366FF6B55380@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0580924756675154776==" --===============0580924756675154776== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm looking to see if it possible to do something similar.=C2=A0 Just=20 blasting raw 12bit samples from memory out the D/A board. A fine point would be to use the KWV11-C realtime clock board for the=20 sample rate control.=C2=A0 No interrupts, just polling. Harder is taking an existing MPG or WAV audio clip and converting it=20 into raw 12bit integers. I wouldn't try this on the PDP11, I would do this in Linux, offline,=20 using python or octave to take a wide band audio file convert it into a=20 narrowband audio file, then resample down to the rate I would use on the=20 PDP11 and finally convert the numbers into 12bit integers. Then just deposit those 12bit numbers into the PDP11 memory and blast away! Will it work?=C2=A0 I don't know. Anyway, it's July and too hot to go outside.=C2=A0 This is an inside project,= =20 with air conditioning. Doug On 7/10/2023 9:41 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 9, 2023, at 9:19 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> Wow! Actual engineers responding... >> >> It looks like I could only do the most rudimentary audio. >> >> 1. Sample Rate: You got maybe 20K samples to store in lower memory. At 7K= Hz sample rate that would allow 3 seconds of audio. Voice only. >> 2. Samples: They must be 12 bits. Converting a modern audio clip requires,= band filtering, resampling and mapping to 12 bit integers. Could be done in= python, they have libraries. >> 3. Clocking output: I have a KMV11, but never programmed around it. >> 4. Amplify output: AAV11-C produces -10 to +10 volts, have to divide this = down for input to an audio amp. >> >> In the end I will have undone all the advances made in digital audio in th= e last 30 to 40 years. > I'm reminded of a project I did in college in 1974, when I made a primitive= graphics display using an X/Y oscilloscope driven by an AA-11. Since the ma= chine was a PDP-11/20 with 8 kW of memory, I decided to use the RC-11 disk as= the refresh memory, doing DMA directly from disk to the D/A data CSR. > > So on the scenario here: the sample rate is clearly more than adequate. 12= bits is not CD grade audio but not bad; for ears used to the distorions of c= ompressed audio files it's probably good enough. > > The PDP-11 certainly won't be able to decompress modern lossy compression f= iles. It should be fine with raw or nearly-raw files, which means you can co= nvert externally and feed the resulting files to the PDP-11. You could conve= rt to 16 bit raw mono with standard tools and then drop the bottom 4 bits. B= and filtering? Resampling? I don't know why you would want to do that, unle= ss there isn't a reasonable way to drive the device at the source file's data= rate. For example, if you have a KW-11/P that's clearly doable. (Come to t= hink of it, that 11/20 had a KW-11/P and I created BASIC extensions for it th= at would allow sampling to be driven by that clock, at a rate of your choosin= g.) > > You can't fit a whole lot of data in 64 kW of memory, but that isn't needed= . That rate isn't all that high; it isn't hard to write a program that does = double buffering from a disk file to memory to the D/A. That makes a really = nice real time programming exercise. > > paul > --===============0580924756675154776==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jul 10 16:27:57 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 12:27:49 -0400 Message-ID: <82018D22-8A00-45CC-A9B5-CF3CDCD74636@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <2d864229-93c0-57f8-5317-001d49802fdb@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0278774182808325992==" --===============0278774182808325992== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 10, 2023, at 12:19 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I'm looking to see if it possible to do something similar. Just blasting r= aw 12bit samples from memory out the D/A board. > A fine point would be to use the KWV11-C realtime clock board for the sampl= e rate control. No interrupts, just polling. In the case I mentioned I could use the "inhibit bus address increment" featu= re of the RC11 controller (and a number of other older controllers) so a long= DMA would send every 16-bit data word to the same bus address (the AA11 data= CSR). That may not be an option for you. If not, you'd have to read from d= isk while simultaneously sending to the D/A, which is a simple exercise in as= ynchronous I/O programming. > Harder is taking an existing MPG or WAV audio clip and converting it into r= aw 12bit integers. > I wouldn't try this on the PDP11, I would do this in Linux, offline, using = python or octave to take a wide band audio file convert it into a narrowband = audio file, then resample down to the rate I would use on the PDP11 and final= ly convert the numbers into 12bit integers. You could certainly downsample if you want to, but as was already observed th= e hardware can handle standard audio data rates of 44.1 k (CD rate) or 48 k (= the other common rate) directly. That also avoids the need for much if any f= iltering of the output, since the aliases would be above the audible range. paul --===============0278774182808325992==-- From johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org Mon Jul 10 17:06:57 2023 From: "John H. Reinhardt" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 11:57:14 -0500 Message-ID: <20c8ffb5-d0c0-3524-26a1-55e51a7b9203@thereinhardts.org> In-Reply-To: <007001d9b346$d1cc4c90$7564e5b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2280738600380207790==" --===============2280738600380207790== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just found this the other day, but I see the update date in in 2014 so it m= ay not be of use. http://ftp.zx.net.nz/cgi-bin/archive-mirror There is some info about libraries under the Storageworks folder. https://ftp.zx.net.nz/pub/archive/ftp.compaq.com/pub/products/storageworks/ --=20 John H. Reinhardt On 7/10/2023 10:54 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Hello All, > > I am wondering if anyone has a private or knows of a mirror for > ftp.compaq.com that is older than 2014? All the ones I have found online, > including the file at archive.org, are from 2014. By then a number of files > and directories had been purged e.g. "/pub/supportinformation/techpubs" and > "softlib1". I am looking for some old documentation and firmware for Compaq > switches and Tape Libraries but if anyone has a full set of files I am happy > to add them to a mirror. TIA! > > > -Ali --===============2280738600380207790==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Jul 10 17:13:15 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 10:13:17 -0700 Message-ID: <007d01d9b351$d2609c50$7721d4f0$@net> In-Reply-To: <20c8ffb5-d0c0-3524-26a1-55e51a7b9203@thereinhardts.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3081903107210600729==" --===============3081903107210600729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I just found this the other day, but I see the update date in in 2014 > so it may not be of use. >=20 > http://ftp.zx.net.nz/cgi-bin/archive-mirror John, Thanks. Actually I have been talking to David (the maintainer/owner of that m= irror) and he doesn't have those files either. >=20 > There is some info about libraries under the Storageworks folder. > =20 > https://ftp.zx.net.nz/pub/archive/ftp.compaq.com/pub/products/storagewo > rks/ Thanks I will check it out. -Ali --===============3081903107210600729==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 10 17:37:42 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 12:37:34 -0500 Message-ID: <421e9c38-84cf-4f66-9a21-c294fe33685c@tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: <007001d9b346$d1cc4c90$7564e5b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3981855842977047624==" --===============3981855842977047624== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/10/23 10:54 AM, Ali wrote: > Hello All, Hi, > I am looking for some old documentation and firmware for Compaq > switches and Tape Libraries but if anyone has a full set of files I > am happy to add them to a mirror. TIA! I can't help with the mirror, but maybe I can help with the old spinning plastic that I have related to ProLiants and / or StorageWorks stuff. Please clarify what you're looking for and I'll see if anything I have is germane. Grant. . . . --===============3981855842977047624==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon Jul 10 17:46:17 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:46:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20c8ffb5-d0c0-3524-26a1-55e51a7b9203@thereinhardts.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7457871580933029940==" --===============7457871580933029940== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am surprised the original Compaq diagnostics for 5 1/4"- native systems and early DOS and even OS/2 are not someplace On Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 1:07 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I just found this the other day, but I see the update date in in 2014 so > it may not be of use. > > http://ftp.zx.net.nz/cgi-bin/archive-mirror > > There is some info about libraries under the Storageworks folder. > > https://ftp.zx.net.nz/pub/archive/ftp.compaq.com/pub/products/storageworks/ > > -- > John H. Reinhardt > > > On 7/10/2023 10:54 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I am wondering if anyone has a private or knows of a mirror for > > ftp.compaq.com that is older than 2014? All the ones I have found > online, > > including the file at archive.org, are from 2014. By then a number of > files > > and directories had been purged e.g. "/pub/supportinformation/techpubs" > and > > "softlib1". I am looking for some old documentation and firmware for > Compaq > > switches and Tape Libraries but if anyone has a full set of files I am > happy > > to add them to a mirror. TIA! > > > > > > -Ali > --===============7457871580933029940==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Jul 10 18:18:22 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 11:18:14 -0700 Message-ID: <007e01d9b35a$e568cee0$b03a6ca0$@net> In-Reply-To: <421e9c38-84cf-4f66-9a21-c294fe33685c@tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4166084112724568076==" --===============4166084112724568076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I can't help with the mirror, but maybe I can help with the old > spinning > plastic that I have related to ProLiants and / or StorageWorks stuff. >=20 > Please clarify what you're looking for and I'll see if anything I have > is germane. Hi Grant, I am currently looking for the following: Firmware for the MSL5000 Tape Library (version 5.20). The file name would be = something like Nextgen_520.bin. The MSL5000 is a rebranded Overland library. = Apparently you could have used the original Overland firmware in the MSL5000 = as well but Overland doesn't have any of the info/files up on that model any = more either after the merger with Tandenberg... The manual for the SW5450 Switch Manual and any FW updates (not sure if there= was any). Any FW later then 1.01 for the SW332x series of dual speed switches. TIA! -Ali --===============4166084112724568076==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Jul 10 18:19:57 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 11:19:58 -0700 Message-ID: <008001d9b35b$22fd9420$68f8bc60$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7585946043966262025==" --===============7585946043966262025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I am surprised the original Compaq diagnostics for 5 1/4"- native > systems > and early DOS and even OS/2 are not someplace Bill, I think those are out there. I believe the last version for DOS was 8.x and t= hat is in the first 500 Softpaqs. I can find the exact number for you if you = are interested. -Ali --===============7585946043966262025==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Mon Jul 10 22:59:30 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 17:59:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2d864229-93c0-57f8-5317-001d49802fdb@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8920733671176293837==" --===============8920733671176293837== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/10/23 11:19, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'm looking to see if it possible to do something > similar.  Just blasting raw 12bit samples from memory out > the D/A board. > A fine point would be to use the KWV11-C realtime clock > board for the sample rate control.  No interrupts, just > polling. > > Harder is taking an existing MPG or WAV audio clip and > converting it into raw 12bit integers. > I wouldn't try this on the PDP11, I would do this in > Linux, offline, using python or octave to take a wide band > audio file convert it into a narrowband audio file, then > resample down to the rate I would use on the PDP11 and > finally convert the numbers into 12bit integers. I think audacity will convert to any arbitrary sample rate.  I'm not sure if there's a way to set the bits/sample, but if you turn the volume down you should be able to just truncate the data. Jon --===============8920733671176293837==-- From cube1@charter.net Tue Jul 11 10:23:13 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM 1410 FPGA Status Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 21:32:45 -0500 Message-ID: <5e7175b4-dd2e-fbbe-b0d0-812a4a1241c8@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8734456553939078748==" --===============8734456553939078748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over the past couple of months I have been working on my FPGA implementation of the IBM 1410 1960's era pre System/360 system again. I am pleased to share that the CPU now passes a significant diagnostic, CU01, which tests almost all of the instructions, and also tests I/O with overlap and the priority feature (interrupts). Also, it runs at generally the same speed as the original machine (comparing the IBM estimates for 1000 passes), using the same logic as the original machine (though no doubt optimized by the process of taking in VHDL logic statements and turning combinatorial logic into lookup tables (LUTs), and some additions of "D" flip flops to avoid race conditions in latches and logic loops.) (The speed is the same because its "oscillator" - crystal controlled in the original - is now a clock divider/counter off of the FPGA chip clock.) For more details, see https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/ibm-1410-fpga-implementation/ Mostly the ALD (Automated Logic Diagram) data capture seems to have been very accurate. I really only had to do four things this year to get it to this point: - Make the necessary logic gate deletions / changes for configuration option S40/$40 - 40K of core - Add the ability to transfer a core image from the PC support program to the FPGA. - Fix some issues in the Assembly Channel because while almost all of the ALDs are for a 1410 with the Accelerator feature, several pages of the very important Assembly channel were for the base 1410 model. - Deal with a race condition during overlapped I/O These are generally discussed in individual blog posts off the above link. I really was quite happily surprised that when capturing the data on over two hundred ALDs with over 10,000 logic gates, over 4,200 individual unique signals, more than 12,000 signal names on individual ALDs, and more than 32,000 interconnections that there were not a lot more problems than these. (I may run into some as yet undiscovered errors involving the channels as I add I/O devices, though). I suppose that there were not more problems because for most of the individual sheets and in many cases groups of sheets I wrote VHDL test benches using the Intermediate Logic Diagrams (ILDs) as a guide, and of course took considerable care during the data entry process from the ALDs, checking connection counts on each logic block, for example. The last post ("Off to the Races") on the aforementioned web page also discusses the next expected steps: some more work on the PC/Console support program, more diagnostic tests, other support program enhancements, and figuring out how to go about I/O, especially since I don't have ALDs for the 1414 I/O Synchronizers. But I no longer have any doubts about the viability of this process, so long as the FPGA logic clock is somewhere around 10x the logic clock of the simulated machine. (I expect to try and "push it" by speeding up the 1410 logic clock to see at what ratio of the FPGA clock to the CPU clock things break down, as well). JRJ --===============8734456553939078748==-- From steven@malikoff.com Tue Jul 11 11:48:50 2023 From: "steven@malikoff.com steven@malikoff.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 21:43:40 +1000 Message-ID: <840571022.591129.1689075820563@webmail-oxcs.register.com> In-Reply-To: <662f6022-92b4-6be5-2906-9bb61e8effbf@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1218779855693121958==" --===============1218779855693121958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 07/10/2023 11:31 PM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: > Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2 MHZ=20 > 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. Much the same here. I recounted this on VCFed a few months ago about building= a simple 2-chip 8-bit ladder DAC with one-transistor amplifier for my Applie= d Technology DG680 S100 machine back in the early 80s from this absolutely ex= cellent BYTE article on how to do polyphonic synthesis on a microcomputer (KI= M-1): https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-09/page/n63/mode/2up A schoolfriend who had an Apple ][ and had not done any Z80 machine code befo= re asked for me to hand him my Zaks book, upon which he wrote out one attempt= in Z80, crossed it out and wrote a second version. Which worked perfectly. F= or the music piece I got it to play four-voice polyphony after painstakingly = encoding Bach's Praeludium in C Major from my mothers' collection of piano mu= sic scores. A few years ago I had thoughts about porting the 6502 code to the PDP-11 and = use the same sort of ladder DAC. Not sure if the slimline 11/05 would be fast= enough for anything too high frequency, but if it was, the slimline 05's pow= er supply could then temporarily come out and be perhaps be powered off some = beefy batteries in that space, along with a small 1970s transistor amp and 19= 70s headphones topped off with a leather shoulder strap to lug it around like= a giant Walkman. --===============1218779855693121958==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 11 13:19:56 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 09:19:24 -0400 Message-ID: <1D897532-D32D-4882-BA41-C6B6691D9E68@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <840571022.591129.1689075820563@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5349799922702885143==" --===============5349799922702885143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 11, 2023, at 7:43 AM, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On 07/10/2023 11:31 PM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >> Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2 MHZ=20 >> 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. >=20 > Much the same here. I recounted this on VCFed a few months ago about buildi= ng a simple 2-chip 8-bit ladder DAC with one-transistor amplifier for my Appl= ied Technology DG680 S100 machine back in the early 80s from this absolutely = excellent BYTE article on how to do polyphonic synthesis on a microcomputer (= KIM-1): >=20 > https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-09/page/n63/mode/2up >=20 > A schoolfriend who had an Apple ][ and had not done any Z80 machine code be= fore asked for me to hand him my Zaks book, upon which he wrote out one attem= pt in Z80, crossed it out and wrote a second version. Which worked perfectly.= For the music piece I got it to play four-voice polyphony after painstakingl= y encoding Bach's Praeludium in C Major from my mothers' collection of piano = music scores. >=20 > A few years ago I had thoughts about porting the 6502 code to the PDP-11 an= d use the same sort of ladder DAC. Not sure if the slimline 11/05 would be fa= st enough for anything too high frequency, but if it was, the slimline 05's p= ower supply could then temporarily come out and be perhaps be powered off som= e beefy batteries in that space, along with a small 1970s transistor amp and = 1970s headphones topped off with a leather shoulder strap to lug it around li= ke a giant Walkman. Speaking of old computerized music playing technology, there are two from the= PLATO system at the University of Illinois that are perhaps the earliest of = all in their category and not all that well known. The first of the two is the GSW (Gooch Synthetic Woodwind), which is a four v= oice, 7 levels per voice, square wave synthesizer. It's fully documented in = Sherwin's US patent 4,206,675. That one was attached to the auxiliary device= port of a PLATO terminal and driven from the host computer, at 1200 bps. It= worked quite well for playing music and was widely used for music education.= It's a very simple device as you can see from the full schematics (which ar= e, surprisingly, given in the patent). That patent was filed in 1977 but the= invention is somewhat older, perhaps 1975 or 1976. The followon to that is the GCS (Gooch Cybernetic Synthesizer), unfortunately= not well documented. That's a 16 voice programmable waveform (256 words by = 16 bits per voice), more levels (256?), driven as a peripheral off the 8080-b= ased "programmable PLATO terminal" from a program running in that terminal. = So the musical score level definition of what to play still came from the hos= t, still at 1200 bps, but the attack/decay etc. shaping would happen in the t= erminal. That one was a bit of an electrical muddle, with memory, logic, and= D/A per voice followed by a 16 input combiner. Getting the analog parts to = work right was a hairy task with far too many trimpots. Sherwin vowed that a= ny followup would be digital all the way to one final D/A, which of course la= ter became the answer in the PC sound cards, but if he did that it was after = I left. The GCS was built around 1977. There were some interesting related = pieces of work, such as a speed-sensing piano keyboard (so unlike an electron= ic organ you could have dynamics, exactly as on a piano), a music editing sys= tem with a score printing program to print on a dot matric (electrostatic) pr= inter, and some other stuff. I'm not sure if the GCS is the earliest fully programmable waveform digital m= usic synthesizer, but if not it is close. paul --===============5349799922702885143==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Tue Jul 11 14:22:14 2023 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 14:22:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1D897532-D32D-4882-BA41-C6B6691D9E68@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5551838666629616737==" --===============5551838666629616737== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And by 1979 there was the fairlight... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairlight_CMI 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos >Speaking of old computerized music playing technology, there are two from th= e PLATO system at the University of Illinois that are perhaps the earliest of= all in their category and not all that well known. The first of the two is the GSW (Gooch Synthetic Woodwind), which is a four v= oice, 7 levels per voice, square wave synthesizer. It's fully documented in = Sherwin's US patent 4,206,675. That one was attached to the auxiliary device= port of a PLATO terminal and driven from the host computer, at 1200 bps. It= worked quite well for playing music and was widely used for music education.= It's a very simple device as you can see from the full schematics (which ar= e, surprisingly, given in the patent). That patent was filed in 1977 but the= invention is somewhat older, perhaps 1975 or 1976. The followon to that is the GCS (Gooch Cybernetic Synthesizer), unfortunately= not well documented. That's a 16 voice programmable waveform (256 words by = 16 bits per voice), more levels (256?), driven as a peripheral off the 8080-b= ased "programmable PLATO terminal" from a program running in that terminal. = So the musical score level definition of what to play still came from the hos= t, still at 1200 bps, but the attack/decay etc. shaping would happen in the t= erminal. That one was a bit of an electrical muddle, with memory, logic, and= D/A per voice followed by a 16 input combiner. Getting the analog parts to = work right was a hairy task with far too many trimpots. Sherwin vowed that a= ny followup would be digital all the way to one final D/A, which of course la= ter became the answer in the PC sound cards, but if he did that it was after = I left. The GCS was built around 1977. There were some interesting related = pieces of work, such as a speed-sensing piano keyboard (so unlike an electron= ic organ you could have dynamics, exactly as on a piano), a music editing sys= tem with a score printing program to print on a dot matric (electrostatic) pr= inter, and some other stuff. I'm not sure if the GCS is the earliest fully programmable waveform digital m= usic synthesizer, but if not it is close. paul --===============5551838666629616737==-- From db@db.net Tue Jul 11 14:42:01 2023 From: db To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 10:41:39 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB52693A5F584D42AA2FB777FBB531A=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0963196432880646138==" --===============0963196432880646138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 02:22:03PM +0000, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > And by 1979 there was the fairlight... > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairlight_CMI >=20 >=20 > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos >=20 > >Speaking of old computerized music playing technology, there are two from = the PLATO system at the University of Illinois that are perhaps the earliest = of all in their category and not all that well known. https://ingeniumcanada.org/scitech/artifact/hugh-le-caine-electronic-sackbut-= synthesizer --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https://octodon.social/@Di= anora --===============0963196432880646138==-- From wdonzelli@gmail.com Tue Jul 11 14:51:24 2023 From: William Donzelli To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 10:51:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB52693A5F584D42AA2FB777FBB531A=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6855433165740473119==" --===============6855433165740473119== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Synclavier I was commercially available in 1977, based off the Dartmouth Digital Synthesizer of earlier times. The core was a New England Digital minicomputer architecture (they did sell just the minicomputer to the military, as a side). The truth is that there were quite a few digital synths in labs in 1977. -- Will On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 10:22=E2=80=AFAM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > And by 1979 there was the fairlight... > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairlight_CMI > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > > >Speaking of old computerized music playing technology, there are two from = the PLATO system at the University of Illinois that are perhaps the earliest = of all in their category and not all that well known. > > The first of the two is the GSW (Gooch Synthetic Woodwind), which is a four= voice, 7 levels per voice, square wave synthesizer. It's fully documented i= n Sherwin's US patent 4,206,675. That one was attached to the auxiliary devi= ce port of a PLATO terminal and driven from the host computer, at 1200 bps. = It worked quite well for playing music and was widely used for music educatio= n. It's a very simple device as you can see from the full schematics (which = are, surprisingly, given in the patent). That patent was filed in 1977 but t= he invention is somewhat older, perhaps 1975 or 1976. > > The followon to that is the GCS (Gooch Cybernetic Synthesizer), unfortunate= ly not well documented. That's a 16 voice programmable waveform (256 words b= y 16 bits per voice), more levels (256?), driven as a peripheral off the 8080= -based "programmable PLATO terminal" from a program running in that terminal.= So the musical score level definition of what to play still came from the h= ost, still at 1200 bps, but the attack/decay etc. shaping would happen in the= terminal. That one was a bit of an electrical muddle, with memory, logic, a= nd D/A per voice followed by a 16 input combiner. Getting the analog parts t= o work right was a hairy task with far too many trimpots. Sherwin vowed that= any followup would be digital all the way to one final D/A, which of course = later became the answer in the PC sound cards, but if he did that it was afte= r I left. The GCS was built around 1977. There were some interesting relate= d pieces of work, such as a speed-sensing piano keyboard (so unlike an electr= onic organ you could have dynamics, exactly as on a piano), a music editing s= ystem with a score printing program to print on a dot matric (electrostatic) = printer, and some other stuff. > > I'm not sure if the GCS is the earliest fully programmable waveform digital= music synthesizer, but if not it is close. > > paul > --===============6855433165740473119==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 11 14:59:31 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 10:59:14 -0400 Message-ID: <5E371F3D-EB4F-4295-9A55-0073C898ACB5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7545912185407968414==" --===============7545912185407968414== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 11, 2023, at 10:51 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The Synclavier I was commercially available in 1977, based off the > Dartmouth Digital Synthesizer of earlier times. The core was a New > England Digital minicomputer architecture (they did sell just the > minicomputer to the military, as a side). >=20 > The truth is that there were quite a few digital synths in labs in 1977. But, judging by Wikipedia, the earlier Synclavier models were not digital sam= pled waveform synthesizers but rather FM synthesizers. So I still wonder if = anyone did it earlier than Sherwin. paul --===============7545912185407968414==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jul 11 15:11:28 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 11:11:12 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3231705235315530037==" --===============3231705235315530037== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Coincidentally I am doing research into this topic and here is a great article that you all would find on topic to this discussion https://www.vintagecomputer.net/CISC367/creative%20computing%20mar-apr%201977= %20UDel-Sound-Synthisizer.pdf I have one of the U of Delaware Plato Synths btw...working to get it running eventually. Just need a Plato or a way to emulate it. Bill On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 10:51=E2=80=AFAM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Synclavier I was commercially available in 1977, based off the > Dartmouth Digital Synthesizer of earlier times. The core was a New > England Digital minicomputer architecture (they did sell just the > minicomputer to the military, as a side). > > The truth is that there were quite a few digital synths in labs in 1977. > > -- > Will > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 10:22=E2=80=AFAM W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > > And by 1979 there was the fairlight... > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairlight_CMI > > > > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > > > > >Speaking of old computerized music playing technology, there are two > from the PLATO system at the University of Illinois that are perhaps the > earliest of all in their category and not all that well known. > > > > The first of the two is the GSW (Gooch Synthetic Woodwind), which is a > four voice, 7 levels per voice, square wave synthesizer. It's fully > documented in Sherwin's US patent 4,206,675. That one was attached to the > auxiliary device port of a PLATO terminal and driven from the host > computer, at 1200 bps. It worked quite well for playing music and was > widely used for music education. It's a very simple device as you can see > from the full schematics (which are, surprisingly, given in the patent). > That patent was filed in 1977 but the invention is somewhat older, perhaps > 1975 or 1976. > > > > The followon to that is the GCS (Gooch Cybernetic Synthesizer), > unfortunately not well documented. That's a 16 voice programmable waveform > (256 words by 16 bits per voice), more levels (256?), driven as a > peripheral off the 8080-based "programmable PLATO terminal" from a program > running in that terminal. So the musical score level definition of what to > play still came from the host, still at 1200 bps, but the attack/decay etc. > shaping would happen in the terminal. That one was a bit of an electrical > muddle, with memory, logic, and D/A per voice followed by a 16 input > combiner. Getting the analog parts to work right was a hairy task with far > too many trimpots. Sherwin vowed that any followup would be digital all > the way to one final D/A, which of course later became the answer in the PC > sound cards, but if he did that it was after I left. The GCS was built > around 1977. There were some interesting related pieces of work, such as a > speed-sensing piano keyboard (so unlike an electronic organ you could have > dynamics, exactly as on a piano), a music editing system with a score > printing program to print on a dot matric (electrostatic) printer, and some > other stuff. > > > > I'm not sure if the GCS is the earliest fully programmable waveform > digital music synthesizer, but if not it is close. > > > > paul > > > --===============3231705235315530037==-- From nw.johnson@ieee.org Tue Jul 11 15:17:19 2023 From: Nigel Johnson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 11:17:11 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6541917222302391604==" --===============6541917222302391604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the 80s I was FE on an 11/40 which eventually became the McClavier. DEC li= ked it so much they transported all 6 racks of equipment to display at the Ca= nadian International Computer show, but when David needed urgent support they= wanted $4000 to change the backplane before they started! On July 11, 2023 10:41:39 a.m. EDT, db via cctalk w= rote: >On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 02:22:03PM +0000, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> And by 1979 there was the fairlight... >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairlight_CMI >>=20 >>=20 >> 73 Eugene W2HX >> Subscribe to my Youtube Channel:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos >>=20 >> >Speaking of old computerized music playing technology, there are two from= the PLATO system at the University of Illinois that are perhaps the earliest= of all in their category and not all that well known. > > >https://ingeniumcanada.org/scitech/artifact/hugh-le-caine-electronic-sackbut= -synthesizer > >--=20 >db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https://octodon.social/@D= ianora --===============6541917222302391604==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 11 15:20:03 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 11:19:28 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5539603511126024683==" --===============5539603511126024683== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 11, 2023, at 11:11 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Coincidentally I am doing research into this topic and here is a great > article that you all would find on topic to this discussion >=20 > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/CISC367/creative%20computing%20mar-apr%2019= 77%20UDel-Sound-Synthisizer.pdf Wow, that's a truly uncivilized piece of work. He describes at some length h= ow PLATO was used for this, without ever naming, let alone crediting, Sherwin= Gooch as the inventor of that "four voice synthesizer". That's a GSW he's r= eferring to. > I have one of the U of Delaware Plato Synths btw...working to get it > running eventually. Just need a Plato or a way to emulate it. PLATO is available, and the one described at cyber1.org has GSW software and = a terminal emulator that includes GSW emulation. It wouldn't be all that har= d to take that emulator and connect it to an actual GSW (and I'd be intereste= d in hearing side by side comparison of the emulator and the real thing. Apart from that, you can of course create your own driver software for one of= those, since it's all documented in the patent and/or the online documentati= on on PLATO. paul --===============5539603511126024683==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Tue Jul 11 15:20:27 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 10:20:22 -0500 Message-ID: <407740480.50169.1689088822106@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <5E371F3D-EB4F-4295-9A55-0073C898ACB5@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7578018216904521033==" --===============7578018216904521033== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 07/11/2023 9:59 AM CDT Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: > But, judging by Wikipedia, the earlier Synclavier models were not digital s= ampled waveform synthesizers but rather FM synthesizers. So I still wonder if= anyone did it earlier than Sherwin. >=20 > paul Possibly the Computer Music Inc Melodian? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampler_(musical_instrument)#:~:text=3DThe%20Me= lodian%20was%20a%20monophonic,such%20as%20an%20ARP%202600. Will --===============7578018216904521033==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue Jul 11 15:41:56 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 10:41:40 -0500 Message-ID: <8dd2aca4-1f11-a5d2-8d56-9cc66e10547f@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <840571022.591129.1689075820563@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8938071347575910112==" --===============8938071347575910112== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I originally used R-2R DACs but I was lucky enough to be able to buy a=20 couple of DAC08 chips at Radio Shack and built a circuit using 74LS244=20 latching buffers so that I could drive both channels of a single 8-bit=20 parallel port and 2 extra control lines (Select and Strobe). On 7/11/2023 6:43 AM, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >> On 07/10/2023 11:31 PM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >> Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2 MHZ >> 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. > Much the same here. I recounted this on VCFed a few months ago about buildi= ng a simple 2-chip 8-bit ladder DAC with one-transistor amplifier for my Appl= ied Technology DG680 S100 machine back in the early 80s from this absolutely = excellent BYTE article on how to do polyphonic synthesis on a microcomputer (= KIM-1): > > https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-09/page/n63/mode/2up > > A schoolfriend who had an Apple ][ and had not done any Z80 machine code be= fore asked for me to hand him my Zaks book, upon which he wrote out one attem= pt in Z80, crossed it out and wrote a second version. Which worked perfectly.= For the music piece I got it to play four-voice polyphony after painstakingl= y encoding Bach's Praeludium in C Major from my mothers' collection of piano = music scores. > > A few years ago I had thoughts about porting the 6502 code to the PDP-11 an= d use the same sort of ladder DAC. Not sure if the slimline 11/05 would be fa= st enough for anything too high frequency, but if it was, the slimline 05's p= ower supply could then temporarily come out and be perhaps be powered off som= e beefy batteries in that space, along with a small 1970s transistor amp and = 1970s headphones topped off with a leather shoulder strap to lug it around li= ke a giant Walkman. --===============8938071347575910112==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Tue Jul 11 16:29:27 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:28:43 -0400 Message-ID: <36e0451d-3e91-76db-f89f-a8c85da04b38@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <8dd2aca4-1f11-a5d2-8d56-9cc66e10547f@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0985592801697482873==" --===============0985592801697482873== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The DACs on the AAV11-C board are not marked in any revealing way.  I think they are Burr Brown DAC80, 24 pin, but I'm not sure.  I wasn't sure if they were working and was looking for a replacement. Looking at the spec sheets DAC's seem to come in Voltage or Current versions.  Life got more complicated. This started out as a simple exercise into verifying the AAV11-C operation using PDP11GUI to program up a basic program to run all the codes thru the DAC.  It worked, got a ramp out.  Now, I'm starting to look at the KWV11-C and how to use that to send values to the DAC at a controllable rate. Doug ------------------ On 7/11/2023 11:41 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I originally used R-2R DACs but I was lucky enough to be able to buy a > couple of DAC08 chips at Radio Shack and built a circuit using 74LS244 > latching buffers so that I could drive both channels of a single 8-bit > parallel port and 2 extra control lines (Select and Strobe). > > On 7/11/2023 6:43 AM, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >>> On 07/10/2023 11:31 PM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2 MHZ >>> 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. >> Much the same here. I recounted this on VCFed a few months ago about >> building a simple 2-chip 8-bit ladder DAC with one-transistor >> amplifier for my Applied Technology DG680 S100 machine back in the >> early 80s from this absolutely excellent BYTE article on how to do >> polyphonic synthesis on a microcomputer (KIM-1): >> >> https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-09/page/n63/mode/2up >> >> A schoolfriend who had an Apple ][ and had not done any Z80 machine >> code before asked for me to hand him my Zaks book, upon which he >> wrote out one attempt in Z80, crossed it out and wrote a second >> version. Which worked perfectly. For the music piece I got it to play >> four-voice polyphony after painstakingly encoding Bach's Praeludium >> in C Major from my mothers' collection of piano music scores. >> >> A few years ago I had thoughts about porting the 6502 code to the >> PDP-11 and use the same sort of ladder DAC. Not sure if the slimline >> 11/05 would be fast enough for anything too high frequency, but if it >> was, the slimline 05's power supply could then temporarily come out >> and be perhaps be powered off some beefy batteries in that space, >> along with a small 1970s transistor amp and 1970s headphones topped >> off with a leather shoulder strap to lug it around like a giant Walkman. > --===============0985592801697482873==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 11 16:30:41 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:30:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <407740480.50169.1689088822106@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5735902722321520573==" --===============5735902722321520573== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 11, 2023, at 11:20 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 07/11/2023 9:59 AM CDT Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 >> But, judging by Wikipedia, the earlier Synclavier models were not digital = sampled waveform synthesizers but rather FM synthesizers. So I still wonder i= f anyone did it earlier than Sherwin. >>=20 >> paul >=20 > Possibly the Computer Music Inc Melodian? > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampler_(musical_instrument)#:~:text=3DThe%20= Melodian%20was%20a%20monophonic,such%20as%20an%20ARP%202600. Interesting. Yes, in a way. Sampling as in the GCS and about one year earli= er, but single channel so less than the GSW. paul --===============5735902722321520573==-- From nw.johnson@ieee.org Tue Jul 11 16:34:00 2023 From: Nigel Johnson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:33:51 -0400 Message-ID: <5332CE31-E856-4FDC-B935-05CBAF4746A2@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: <36e0451d-3e91-76db-f89f-a8c85da04b38@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4288601634447142989==" --===============4288601634447142989== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You might try looking for Data Translation products. I know some of the later= ad and da modules were made by them for DEC On July 11, 2023 12:28:43 p.m. EDT, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >The DACs on the AAV11-C board are not marked in any revealing way.=C2=A0 I t= hink they are Burr Brown DAC80, 24 pin, but I'm not sure.=C2=A0 I wasn't sure= if they were working and was looking for a replacement. > >Looking at the spec sheets DAC's seem to come in Voltage or Current versions= .=C2=A0 Life got more complicated. > >This started out as a simple exercise into verifying the AAV11-C operation u= sing PDP11GUI to program up a basic program to run all the codes thru the DAC= .=C2=A0 It worked, got a ramp out.=C2=A0 Now, I'm starting to look at the KWV= 11-C and how to use that to send values to the DAC at a controllable rate. > >Doug > >------------------ > >On 7/11/2023 11:41 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> I originally used R-2R DACs but I was lucky enough to be able to buy a cou= ple of DAC08 chips at Radio Shack and built a circuit using 74LS244 latching = buffers so that I could drive both channels of a single 8-bit parallel port a= nd 2 extra control lines (Select and Strobe). >>=20 >> On 7/11/2023 6:43 AM, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 07/10/2023 11:31 PM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>>> Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2 MHZ >>>> 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. >>> Much the same here. I recounted this on VCFed a few months ago about buil= ding a simple 2-chip 8-bit ladder DAC with one-transistor amplifier for my Ap= plied Technology DG680 S100 machine back in the early 80s from this absolutel= y excellent BYTE article on how to do polyphonic synthesis on a microcomputer= (KIM-1): >>>=20 >>> https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-09/page/n63/mode/2up >>>=20 >>> A schoolfriend who had an Apple ][ and had not done any Z80 machine code = before asked for me to hand him my Zaks book, upon which he wrote out one att= empt in Z80, crossed it out and wrote a second version. Which worked perfectl= y. For the music piece I got it to play four-voice polyphony after painstakin= gly encoding Bach's Praeludium in C Major from my mothers' collection of pian= o music scores. >>>=20 >>> A few years ago I had thoughts about porting the 6502 code to the PDP-11 = and use the same sort of ladder DAC. Not sure if the slimline 11/05 would be = fast enough for anything too high frequency, but if it was, the slimline 05's= power supply could then temporarily come out and be perhaps be powered off s= ome beefy batteries in that space, along with a small 1970s transistor amp an= d 1970s headphones topped off with a leather shoulder strap to lug it around = like a giant Walkman. >>=20 > --===============4288601634447142989==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Tue Jul 11 16:43:27 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:42:57 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5332CE31-E856-4FDC-B935-05CBAF4746A2@ieee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9197369688452173881==" --===============9197369688452173881== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Funny you mention that, I've got a Data Translation DT2766 and it is=20 identical to the AAV11-C.=C2=A0 I mean identical!=C2=A0 In the day DT must ha= ve=20 sold them based on 2 selling points: (1) Cheaper than DEC and (2) Exact=20 drop in replacement for the DEC AAV11-C. Doug On 7/11/2023 12:33 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > You might try looking for Data Translation products. I know some of the lat= er ad and da modules were made by them for DEC > > On July 11, 2023 12:28:43 p.m. EDT, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> The DACs on the AAV11-C board are not marked in any revealing way.=C2=A0 I= think they are Burr Brown DAC80, 24 pin, but I'm not sure.=C2=A0 I wasn't su= re if they were working and was looking for a replacement. >> >> Looking at the spec sheets DAC's seem to come in Voltage or Current versio= ns.=C2=A0 Life got more complicated. >> >> This started out as a simple exercise into verifying the AAV11-C operation= using PDP11GUI to program up a basic program to run all the codes thru the D= AC.=C2=A0 It worked, got a ramp out.=C2=A0 Now, I'm starting to look at the K= WV11-C and how to use that to send values to the DAC at a controllable rate. >> >> Doug >> >> ------------------ >> >> On 7/11/2023 11:41 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>> I originally used R-2R DACs but I was lucky enough to be able to buy a co= uple of DAC08 chips at Radio Shack and built a circuit using 74LS244 latching= buffers so that I could drive both channels of a single 8-bit parallel port = and 2 extra control lines (Select and Strobe). >>> >>> On 7/11/2023 6:43 AM, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On 07/10/2023 11:31 PM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2 MHZ >>>>> 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. >>>> Much the same here. I recounted this on VCFed a few months ago about bui= lding a simple 2-chip 8-bit ladder DAC with one-transistor amplifier for my A= pplied Technology DG680 S100 machine back in the early 80s from this absolute= ly excellent BYTE article on how to do polyphonic synthesis on a microcompute= r (KIM-1): >>>> >>>> https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-09/page/n63/mode/2up >>>> >>>> A schoolfriend who had an Apple ][ and had not done any Z80 machine code= before asked for me to hand him my Zaks book, upon which he wrote out one at= tempt in Z80, crossed it out and wrote a second version. Which worked perfect= ly. For the music piece I got it to play four-voice polyphony after painstaki= ngly encoding Bach's Praeludium in C Major from my mothers' collection of pia= no music scores. >>>> >>>> A few years ago I had thoughts about porting the 6502 code to the PDP-11= and use the same sort of ladder DAC. Not sure if the slimline 11/05 would be= fast enough for anything too high frequency, but if it was, the slimline 05'= s power supply could then temporarily come out and be perhaps be powered off = some beefy batteries in that space, along with a small 1970s transistor amp a= nd 1970s headphones topped off with a leather shoulder strap to lug it around= like a giant Walkman. --===============9197369688452173881==-- From nw.johnson@ieee.org Tue Jul 11 16:54:38 2023 From: Nigel Johnson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:54:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7320473795840855080==" --===============7320473795840855080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wouldn't want to violate my NDA! On July 11, 2023 12:42:57 p.m. EDT, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >Funny you mention that, I've got a Data Translation DT2766 and it is identic= al to the AAV11-C.=C2=A0 I mean identical!=C2=A0 In the day DT must have sold= them based on 2 selling points: (1) Cheaper than DEC and (2) Exact drop in r= eplacement for the DEC AAV11-C. > >Doug > >On 7/11/2023 12:33 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> You might try looking for Data Translation products. I know some of the la= ter ad and da modules were made by them for DEC >>=20 >> On July 11, 2023 12:28:43 p.m. EDT, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> The DACs on the AAV11-C board are not marked in any revealing way.=C2=A0 = I think they are Burr Brown DAC80, 24 pin, but I'm not sure.=C2=A0 I wasn't s= ure if they were working and was looking for a replacement. >>>=20 >>> Looking at the spec sheets DAC's seem to come in Voltage or Current versi= ons.=C2=A0 Life got more complicated. >>>=20 >>> This started out as a simple exercise into verifying the AAV11-C operatio= n using PDP11GUI to program up a basic program to run all the codes thru the = DAC.=C2=A0 It worked, got a ramp out.=C2=A0 Now, I'm starting to look at the = KWV11-C and how to use that to send values to the DAC at a controllable rate. >>>=20 >>> Doug >>>=20 >>> ------------------ >>>=20 >>> On 7/11/2023 11:41 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>>> I originally used R-2R DACs but I was lucky enough to be able to buy a c= ouple of DAC08 chips at Radio Shack and built a circuit using 74LS244 latchin= g buffers so that I could drive both channels of a single 8-bit parallel port= and 2 extra control lines (Select and Strobe). >>>>=20 >>>> On 7/11/2023 6:43 AM, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> On 07/10/2023 11:31 PM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2 MHZ >>>>>> 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. >>>>> Much the same here. I recounted this on VCFed a few months ago about bu= ilding a simple 2-chip 8-bit ladder DAC with one-transistor amplifier for my = Applied Technology DG680 S100 machine back in the early 80s from this absolut= ely excellent BYTE article on how to do polyphonic synthesis on a microcomput= er (KIM-1): >>>>>=20 >>>>> https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-09/page/n63/mode/2up >>>>>=20 >>>>> A schoolfriend who had an Apple ][ and had not done any Z80 machine cod= e before asked for me to hand him my Zaks book, upon which he wrote out one a= ttempt in Z80, crossed it out and wrote a second version. Which worked perfec= tly. For the music piece I got it to play four-voice polyphony after painstak= ingly encoding Bach's Praeludium in C Major from my mothers' collection of pi= ano music scores. >>>>>=20 >>>>> A few years ago I had thoughts about porting the 6502 code to the PDP-1= 1 and use the same sort of ladder DAC. Not sure if the slimline 11/05 would b= e fast enough for anything too high frequency, but if it was, the slimline 05= 's power supply could then temporarily come out and be perhaps be powered off= some beefy batteries in that space, along with a small 1970s transistor amp = and 1970s headphones topped off with a leather shoulder strap to lug it aroun= d like a giant Walkman. > > --===============7320473795840855080==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 11 17:06:56 2023 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 1410 FPGA Status Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 10:06:48 -0700 Message-ID: <22a3ed5b1199ed3c752612c91e4d7009e188d660.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <5e7175b4-dd2e-fbbe-b0d0-812a4a1241c8@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7525191031422393700==" --===============7525191031422393700== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 2023-07-10 at 21:32 -0500, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Over the past couple of months I have been working on my FPGA > implementation of the IBM 1410 1960's era pre System/360 system again. > I am pleased to share that the CPU now passes a significant diagnostic, > CU01, which tests almost all of the instructions, and also tests I/O > with overlap and the priority feature (interrupts). Did you implement the compatibility feature, so it can run 1401 programs too? --===============7525191031422393700==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Tue Jul 11 17:10:22 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 17:10:08 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <36e0451d-3e91-76db-f89f-a8c85da04b38@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1101888276511979355==" --===============1101888276511979355== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For info on DAC internals, have a look at https://www.analog.com/en/education= /education-library/analog-digital-conversion-1986.html Part 2 details basic A= /D & D/A architectures Current output converters are: - less common than voltage output DACs - and, if a ladder conversion architecture is used, lurking inside voltage ou= tput DACs behind a transimpedance amplifier (I to V converter) I would be very surprised if the AAV11 does not output buffered volts Lots of other good reference material on analog.com, TI.com is also worth a l= ook Martin PS Most contemporary audio work uses SigmaDelta converters, see e.g. Analog D= evices AN-283 and MT-022 -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 11 July 2023 17:29 To: Mike Katz via cctalk Cc: Douglas Taylor Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 The DACs on the AAV11-C board are not marked in any revealing way.=C2=A0 I th= ink they are Burr Brown DAC80, 24 pin, but I'm not sure.=C2=A0 I wasn't sure = if they were working and was looking for a replacement. Looking at the spec sheets DAC's seem to come in Voltage or Current versions.= =C2=A0 Life got more complicated. This started out as a simple exercise into verifying the AAV11-C operation us= ing PDP11GUI to program up a basic program to run all the codes thru the DAC.= =C2=A0 It worked, got a ramp out.=C2=A0 Now, I'm starting to look at the KWV1= 1-C and how to use that to send values to the DAC at a controllable rate. Doug ------------------ On 7/11/2023 11:41 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I originally used R-2R DACs but I was lucky enough to be able to buy a=20 > couple of DAC08 chips at Radio Shack and built a circuit using 74LS244=20 > latching buffers so that I could drive both channels of a single 8-bit=20 > parallel port and 2 extra control lines (Select and Strobe). > > On 7/11/2023 6:43 AM, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >>> On 07/10/2023 11:31 PM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk=20 >>> wrote: >>> Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2=20 >>> MHZ >>> 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. >> Much the same here. I recounted this on VCFed a few months ago about=20 >> building a simple 2-chip 8-bit ladder DAC with one-transistor=20 >> amplifier for my Applied Technology DG680 S100 machine back in the=20 >> early 80s from this absolutely excellent BYTE article on how to do=20 >> polyphonic synthesis on a microcomputer (KIM-1): >> >> https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-09/page/n63/mode/2up >> >> A schoolfriend who had an Apple ][ and had not done any Z80 machine=20 >> code before asked for me to hand him my Zaks book, upon which he=20 >> wrote out one attempt in Z80, crossed it out and wrote a second=20 >> version. Which worked perfectly. For the music piece I got it to play=20 >> four-voice polyphony after painstakingly encoding Bach's Praeludium=20 >> in C Major from my mothers' collection of piano music scores. >> >> A few years ago I had thoughts about porting the 6502 code to the >> PDP-11 and use the same sort of ladder DAC. Not sure if the slimline >> 11/05 would be fast enough for anything too high frequency, but if it=20 >> was, the slimline 05's power supply could then temporarily come out=20 >> and be perhaps be powered off some beefy batteries in that space,=20 >> along with a small 1970s transistor amp and 1970s headphones topped=20 >> off with a leather shoulder strap to lug it around like a giant Walkman. > --===============1101888276511979355==-- From cube1@charter.net Tue Jul 11 18:25:40 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 1410 FPGA Status Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 13:18:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <22a3ed5b1199ed3c752612c91e4d7009e188d660.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2843540403251478763==" --===============2843540403251478763== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, as it was part and parcel of every 1410. but I have not tested it yet. Sent from my iPad > On Jul 11, 2023, at 12:06, Van Snyder via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Mon, 2023-07-10 at 21:32 -0500, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> Over the past couple of months I have been working on my FPGA=20 >> implementation of the IBM 1410 1960's era pre System/360 system again.=20 >> I am pleased to share that the CPU now passes a significant diagnostic,=20 >> CU01, which tests almost all of the instructions, and also tests I/O=20 >> with overlap and the priority feature (interrupts). >=20 > Did you implement the compatibility feature, so it can run 1401 > programs too? >=20 >=20 --===============2843540403251478763==-- From cramcram@gmail.com Tue Jul 11 19:06:19 2023 From: Marc Howard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 15:06:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4715860270897780126==" --===============4715860270897780126== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Try 1970. https://www.vintagecomputermusic.com/notran_system.php I worked in the same (computer graphics) lab with Hal. He wrote the seminal book on microprocessor generated music and later worked at Kurzweil. Marc Howard On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 1:10 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > For info on DAC internals, have a look at > https://www.analog.com/en/education/education-library/analog-digital-conver= sion-1986.html > Part 2 details basic A/D & D/A architectures > > Current output converters are: > - less common than voltage output DACs > - and, if a ladder conversion architecture is used, lurking inside voltage > output DACs behind a transimpedance amplifier (I to V converter) > > I would be very surprised if the AAV11 does not output buffered volts > > Lots of other good reference material on analog.com, TI.com is also worth > a look > > Martin > > PS Most contemporary audio work uses SigmaDelta converters, see e.g. > Analog Devices AN-283 and MT-022 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 11 July 2023 17:29 > To: Mike Katz via cctalk > Cc: Douglas Taylor > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 > > The DACs on the AAV11-C board are not marked in any revealing way. I > think they are Burr Brown DAC80, 24 pin, but I'm not sure. I wasn't sure > if they were working and was looking for a replacement. > > Looking at the spec sheets DAC's seem to come in Voltage or Current > versions. Life got more complicated. > > This started out as a simple exercise into verifying the AAV11-C operation > using PDP11GUI to program up a basic program to run all the codes thru the > DAC. It worked, got a ramp out. Now, I'm starting to look at the KWV11-C > and how to use that to send values to the DAC at a controllable rate. > > Doug > > ------------------ > > On 7/11/2023 11:41 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I originally used R-2R DACs but I was lucky enough to be able to buy a > > couple of DAC08 chips at Radio Shack and built a circuit using 74LS244 > > latching buffers so that I could drive both channels of a single 8-bit > > parallel port and 2 extra control lines (Select and Strobe). > > > > On 7/11/2023 6:43 AM, steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: > >>> On 07/10/2023 11:31 PM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk > >>> wrote: > >>> Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2 > >>> MHZ > >>> 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. > >> Much the same here. I recounted this on VCFed a few months ago about > >> building a simple 2-chip 8-bit ladder DAC with one-transistor > >> amplifier for my Applied Technology DG680 S100 machine back in the > >> early 80s from this absolutely excellent BYTE article on how to do > >> polyphonic synthesis on a microcomputer (KIM-1): > >> > >> https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-09/page/n63/mode/2up > >> > >> A schoolfriend who had an Apple ][ and had not done any Z80 machine > >> code before asked for me to hand him my Zaks book, upon which he > >> wrote out one attempt in Z80, crossed it out and wrote a second > >> version. Which worked perfectly. For the music piece I got it to play > >> four-voice polyphony after painstakingly encoding Bach's Praeludium > >> in C Major from my mothers' collection of piano music scores. > >> > >> A few years ago I had thoughts about porting the 6502 code to the > >> PDP-11 and use the same sort of ladder DAC. Not sure if the slimline > >> 11/05 would be fast enough for anything too high frequency, but if it > >> was, the slimline 05's power supply could then temporarily come out > >> and be perhaps be powered off some beefy batteries in that space, > >> along with a small 1970s transistor amp and 1970s headphones topped > >> off with a leather shoulder strap to lug it around like a giant Walkman. > > > > --===============4715860270897780126==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 11 20:14:18 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 16:13:48 -0400 Message-ID: <0788DB65-A34D-40F4-A63F-66AA964C2DCD@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0219239041823535456==" --===============0219239041823535456== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 11, 2023, at 3:06 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Try 1970. > https://www.vintagecomputermusic.com/notran_system.php >=20 > I worked in the same (computer graphics) lab with Hal. He wrote the > seminal book on microprocessor generated music and later worked at Kurzweil. That reminds me of a book I read in 1974 about synthesizer generated music (n= ot sure if it involved computers). It had an audio record, LP type, in the b= ack, with a number of pieces. One of them I played on the university radio s= tation, it was an "eight tone canon", in other words a canon on a scale of 8 = equal intervals for the octave. That sounds very strange indeed because the = single step in that scale doesn't match any in the usual scales we're familia= r with. I'd like to find a copy of that; it would be neat to transcribe that= piece for another synthesizer. The GSW I mentioned could easily handle that. paul --===============0219239041823535456==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 11 21:27:48 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 16:27:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007e01d9b35a$e568cee0$b03a6ca0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6281812347905620021==" --===============6281812347905620021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/10/23 1:18 PM, Ali wrote: > Hi Grant, Hi Ali, > I am currently looking for the following: > > Firmware for the MSL5000 Tape Library (version 5.20). The file name > would be something like Nextgen_520.bin. The MSL5000 is a rebranded > Overland library. Apparently you could have used the original > Overland firmware in the MSL5000 as well but Overland doesn't have > any of the info/files up on that model any more either after the > merger with Tandenberg... > > The manual for the SW5450 Switch Manual and any FW updates (not sure > if there was any). > > Any FW later then 1.01 for the SW332x series of dual speed switches. I happened to have my CD binders out yesterday looking for something else and paid attention as I flipped past the Compaq CDs (having recently seen / replied to this thread). It seems as if all the CDs that I have are Compaq SmartStart CDs, likely for the various ProLiants that I've had over the years. I think there was a firmware maintenance CD that was also for the ProLiants. Do you think that there is any chance that the tape library software / firmware would be on them? If so I can get them back out and search them. But I'd like to have a better idea what I'm looking for before embarking on such a search. I am happy to (slowly over the next week?) do so if you think it's worthwhile for me to do so. > TIA! You're welcome. Please let me know if you think it's worth my while to search or at least generate a directory listing to provide for and to you for your searching. Grant. . . . --===============6281812347905620021==-- From curiousmarc3@gmail.com Wed Jul 12 16:31:34 2023 From: Curious Marc To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 1410 FPGA Status Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 09:31:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5e7175b4-dd2e-fbbe-b0d0-812a4a1241c8@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8839863092007418729==" --===============8839863092007418729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very impressive. Congratulations! Marc > On Jul 11, 2023, at 3:23 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOver the past couple of months I have been working on my FPGA impl= ementation of the IBM 1410 1960's era pre System/360 system again. I am pleas= ed to share that the CPU now passes a significant diagnostic, CU01, which tes= ts almost all of the instructions, and also tests I/O with overlap and the pr= iority feature (interrupts). Also, it runs at generally the same speed as th= e original machine (comparing the IBM estimates for 1000 passes), using the s= ame logic as the original machine (though no doubt optimized by the process o= f taking in VHDL logic statements and turning combinatorial logic into lookup= tables (LUTs), and some additions of "D" flip flops to avoid race conditions= in latches and logic loops.) >=20 > (The speed is the same because its "oscillator" - crystal controlled in the= original - is now a clock divider/counter off of the FPGA chip clock.) >=20 > For more details, see >=20 > https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/ibm-1410-fpga-implementation/ >=20 > Mostly the ALD (Automated Logic Diagram) data capture seems to have been ve= ry accurate. I really only had to do four things this year to get it to this= point: >=20 > - Make the necessary logic gate deletions / changes for configuration > option S40/$40 - 40K of core > - Add the ability to transfer a core image from the PC support program > to the FPGA. > - Fix some issues in the Assembly Channel because while almost all of > the ALDs are for a 1410 with the Accelerator feature, several pages of > the very important Assembly channel were for the base 1410 model. > - Deal with a race condition during overlapped I/O >=20 > These are generally discussed in individual blog posts off the above link. >=20 > I really was quite happily surprised that when capturing the data on over t= wo hundred ALDs with over 10,000 logic gates, over 4,200 individual unique si= gnals, more than 12,000 signal names on individual ALDs, and more than 32,000= interconnections that there were not a lot more problems than these. (I may= run into some as yet undiscovered errors involving the channels as I add I/O= devices, though). >=20 > I suppose that there were not more problems because for most of the individ= ual sheets and in many cases groups of sheets I wrote VHDL test benches using= the Intermediate Logic Diagrams (ILDs) as a guide, and of course took consid= erable care during the data entry process from the ALDs, checking connection = counts on each logic block, for example. >=20 > The last post ("Off to the Races") on the aforementioned web page also disc= usses the next expected steps: some more work on the PC/Console support progr= am, more diagnostic tests, other support program enhancements, and figuring o= ut how to go about I/O, especially since I don't have ALDs for the 1414 I/O S= ynchronizers. >=20 > But I no longer have any doubts about the viability of this process, so lon= g as the FPGA logic clock is somewhere around 10x the logic clock of the simu= lated machine. (I expect to try and "push it" by speeding up the 1410 logic = clock to see at what ratio of the FPGA clock to the CPU clock things break do= wn, as well). >=20 > JRJ --===============8839863092007418729==-- From bob@jfcl.com Wed Jul 12 17:06:27 2023 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 1410 FPGA Status Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 10:06:24 -0700 Message-ID: <00b401d9b4e3$30307c00$90917400$@com> In-Reply-To: <22a3ed5b1199ed3c752612c91e4d7009e188d660.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0644322532391610891==" --===============0644322532391610891== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2023-07-10 at 21:32 -0500, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Over the past couple of months I have been working on my FPGA=20 > implementation of the IBM 1410 ... What are your plans for implementing I/O? Are you going to emulate a card = reader and line printer using an SD card and a FAT filesystem? Or maybe an E= thernet connection? It's a batch system; how will you submit jobs to it? Just curious... Thanks, Bob --===============0644322532391610891==-- From cube1@charter.net Wed Jul 12 22:01:15 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 1410 FPGA Status Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 17:01:02 -0500 Message-ID: <69c13f00-0d5e-cfb5-cc7e-d9d4cee72275@charter.net> In-Reply-To: <00b401d9b4e3$30307c00$90917400$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1661587282475737162==" --===============1661587282475737162== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I/O is already (for the 1415 console) and will be (for tape, print,=20 reader, disk, telegraph -- whatever) handled by a PC support program,=20 communicating with the Digilent NEXSYS4 over its USB serial port. This is covered in the following posts: https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/2022/04/19/ibm-1410-fpga-serial-= output-fifo-and-arbitration/ https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/2022/05/22/ibm1410-fpga-inputs/ And the plans moving forward include the info at: https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/2023/07/10/ibm-1410-fpga-off-to-= the-races/ JRJ On 7/12/2023 12:06 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 2023-07-10 at 21:32 -0500, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> Over the past couple of months I have been working on my FPGA >> implementation of the IBM 1410 ... >=20 > What are your plans for implementing I/O? Are you going to emulate a ca= rd reader and line printer using an SD card and a FAT filesystem? Or maybe a= n Ethernet connection? It's a batch system; how will you submit jobs to it? >=20 > Just curious... >=20 > Thanks, > Bob >=20 >=20 --===============1661587282475737162==-- From cube1@charter.net Wed Jul 12 22:06:01 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 1410 FPGA Status Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 17:05:53 -0500 Message-ID: <8670e273-4877-139c-cef8-e3478196871b@charter.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8427724156020062096==" --===============8427724156020062096== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI, I tried the 1401 mode diagnostic M011 today. Results were=20 encouraging, if not perfect: - The 1410 mode console output for the instruction to the opertor to=20 switch to 1401 mode quit after seeing a space character. Should be an=20 easy fix, especially if I can make it happen under simulation. My first=20 guess is that it was the space itself that caused the issue, but I=20 forgot to simply try altering the space to something else when I tried. - The 1401 mode tests get quite far, but then error out at location=20 06029 with an Instruction check. No idea what the issue is. The 1401=20 mode halt and branch (right at the beginning of test M011) also fails.=20 That should be an easy one, too. JRJ On 7/11/2023 1:18 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Yes, as it was part and parcel of every 1410. but I have not tested it yet. >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 >> On Jul 11, 2023, at 12:06, Van Snyder via cctalk = wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFOn Mon, 2023-07-10 at 21:32 -0500, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >>> Over the past couple of months I have been working on my FPGA >>> implementation of the IBM 1410 1960's era pre System/360 system again. >>> I am pleased to share that the CPU now passes a significant diagnostic, >>> CU01, which tests almost all of the instructions, and also tests I/O >>> with overlap and the priority feature (interrupts). >> >> Did you implement the compatibility feature, so it can run 1401 >> programs too? >> >> --===============8427724156020062096==-- From silvercreekvalley@yahoo.com Fri Jul 14 09:03:09 2023 From: silcreval To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB XVR-4000 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2023 10:02:58 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7438115452075233441==" --===============7438115452075233441== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, I recently dug out my V880 and all seems to be working brilliantly. I've alwa= ys liked these machines and it would be nice to upgrade this to the V880z spe= c, ie by adding the mighty XVR-4000 graphics module. I know the XVR-4000 is a bit of a mixed bag, but would be fun to play around = with this and also who can not be impressed with the shear size of the module= . Must be one of the biggest Sun graphics 'cards'? Does anyone have one of these boards they would be willing to part with. Happ= y to pay a reasonable amount as I know these are not easy to find. PM me if you have anything. Ian. --===============7438115452075233441==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Jul 14 09:48:49 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB XVR-4000 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2023 10:48:32 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4065890003616789322==" --===============4065890003616789322== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 at 10:03, silcreval via cctalk wrote: > > I recently dug out my V880 and all seems to be working brilliantly. I've al= ways liked these machines and it would be nice to upgrade this to the V880z s= pec, ie by adding the mighty > XVR-4000 graphics module. I had no idea what a V880 or V880z was, so I went Googling. After a bit of hunting around, and skimming a dozen pages of a few PDFs, I found this, with some specs and pictures and details of what it's for. https://forums.sgi.sh/index.php?threads/the-sun-fire-v880z.332/ =C2=AB The Sun Fire V880Z [...] This is the largest machine I currently have in my collection! (All 157kg of it!!!) I received this little monster brand new in box!!! (So I've been lucky enough to experience the unboxing of such a piece of equipment!) It has the following spec: 6x UltraSPARC III Cu 1.2GHz, XVR-4000, 48GB of RAM (It's at max spec) =C2=BB --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4065890003616789322==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sat Jul 15 23:43:45 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Shot In the Dark: Compaq System Manager Facility Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2023 16:43:49 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01d9b776$356ab5b0$a0402110$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6397273875946079355==" --===============6397273875946079355== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Really long shot, and I have asked here before without much luck, but anyone have a copy of the Compaq System Manager Facility 1.10 or 1.11 (or any version for that matter). This would have been released in 1994/95 time frame and is necessary for the use of the Compaq Server Manager/R EISA board. This is a very early EISA RILO board for the System Pro and Proliant line of servers. Please note this is not the same as the System Management Agents nor the Insight Manager. TIA! -Ali --===============6397273875946079355==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sun Jul 16 01:49:01 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Shot In the Dark: Compaq System Manager Facility Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2023 19:48:53 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000e01d9b776$356ab5b0$a0402110$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1424606838614664581==" --===============1424606838614664581== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have compaq-system-config-us-proliant-3000-333.disk1.gz compaq-system-config-us-proliant-3000-333.disk2.gz compaq-system-config-us-proliant-3000-333.disk3.gz compaq-system-config-us-proliant-3000-333.disk4.gz In my collection that I think I used to configure a Proliant 3000 with EISA bus. is that useful? Warner On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 5:43 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > Really long shot, and I have asked here before without much luck, but > anyone > have a copy of the Compaq System Manager Facility 1.10 or 1.11 (or any > version for that matter). This would have been released in 1994/95 time > frame and is necessary for the use of the Compaq Server Manager/R EISA > board. This is a very early EISA RILO board for the System Pro and Proliant > line of servers. Please note this is not the same as the System Management > Agents nor the Insight Manager. TIA! > > -Ali > > > > --===============1424606838614664581==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sun Jul 16 04:31:03 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Shot In the Dark: Compaq System Manager Facility Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2023 21:31:01 -0700 Message-ID: <001401d9b79e$5455df90$fd019eb0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0991137378793140312==" --===============0991137378793140312== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >compaq-system-config-us-proliant-3000-333.disk1.gz > compaq-system-config-us-proliant-3000-333.disk2.gz > compaq-system-config-us-proliant-3000-333.disk3.gz > compaq-system-config-us-proliant-3000-333.disk4.gz > In my collection that I think I used to configure a Proliant 3000 with EISA= bus. Hi Warner, Thanks but that is the ECU set for EISA systems. This would be far older - i.= e. maybe before even the first ServicePaqs came out.=20 I get the feeling Compaq never put it on the FTP because by then they had dis= continued the EISA card and replaced it with a new one. So the only way anyon= e would have one is if they had the card with the original software. -Ali --===============0991137378793140312==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Jul 16 08:31:25 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 03:31:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4597706718295446251==" --===============4597706718295446251== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sad to hear about Don Lancaster. Things like this is what motivated me to make the "domesticating the computer" video, which briefly mentions the TV Typewriter - to honor these "living legends". I wish I could have fit in more about Don and also Ted Nelson, author of Computer Lib. And speaking of Ted, I wish I could grasp/understand Project Xanadu better. My only explanation is that our typical/classical approach to "file management" has borrowed all the concepts of the physical world -- a desktop, a cabinet with drawers, containing folders and files. But in cyberspace there was no real reason to follow that model, and we could have had a better approach to linking information (in some more bi-directional fashion). I don't know if that comes close to Xanadu's ideals, but that's my gist understanding. Our spoken languages I think sometimes make it difficult to convey novel ideas sometimes. -SL On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 10:08 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:26 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > I am going throw out a Jim Butterfield too > > I never got to meet him or correspond with him directly, but through > his articles and his work with TORPUG, he absolutely had a huge > indirect influence on my early years. > > I did learn plenty from Don Lancaster too, but it was more general > knowledge than anything. I don't think I ever read something of his > that I didn't learn something from. > > -ethan > --===============4597706718295446251==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jul 16 11:15:55 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 04:15:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9107625862628717108==" --===============9107625862628717108== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 1:31 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sad to hear about Don Lancaster. Things like this is what motivated me to > make the "domesticating the computer" video, which briefly mentions the TV > Typewriter - to honor these "living legends". I wish I could have fit in > more about Don and also Ted Nelson, author of Computer Lib. And speaking > of Ted, I wish I could grasp/understand Project Xanadu better. My only > explanation is that our typical/classical approach to "file management" has > borrowed all the concepts of the physical world -- a desktop, a cabinet > with drawers, containing folders and files. But in cyberspace there was no > real reason to follow that model, and we could have had a better approach > to linking information (in some more bi-directional fashion). I don't know > if that comes close to Xanadu's ideals, but that's my gist understanding. > Our spoken languages I think sometimes make it difficult to convey novel > ideas sometimes. > > -SL > Ted personally demonstrated Xanadu to me and I still came away somewhat baffled :) Sellam --===============9107625862628717108==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Jul 16 17:14:04 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 18:13:55 +0100 Message-ID: <000001d9b808$e70bce20$b5236a60$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <000601d9b29e$bf008700$3d019500$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8972191516665528921==" --===============8972191516665528921== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used a logic analyser to check the 8228 and it does appear to be working as= expected as can be seen here https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2023/07/82= 28-operation.jpg. The labels are not very clear, but the 3rd from top is the = WR input and the 4th from top is the I/O W output. So it does look like it is= working. The odd thing is that I can't pick this up with my DSO. I have tried messing = with the trigger, but I just can't pick up anything that shows I/O W going lo= w. I am using -ve edge triggers. I have tried a pulse trigger with a width >2= 0ns and I have tried nth edge trigger, neither of the latter two ever trigger= . Obviously it is my method that is wrong, but I really don't know what it is= about my method that is wrong. Are there any common mistakes that novices ma= ke? Thanks > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt > Sent: 09 July 2023 20:51 > To: 'Jonathan Chapman' ; rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; > 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 >=20 > Thanks for confirming that HLDA doesn't need to be asserted at this stage. >=20 > I looked at the address trace and matched it to the disassembled ROM. My > ROM image compares to another ROM image that has been posted online at > 9track.net, so I am fairly confident that the CPU and ROM are OK. >=20 > I don't think that the RAM test is passing though, it might not even be abl= e to > start it, I have not traced this sufficiently to be sure, but it is in a lo= op at one > point, but not before sending data to the keyboard UART. That is what made > me look at the 8228 because I traced back that far to where something did > not seem be happening correctly. >=20 > In fact, I now realise that I should have checked MEM WR and MEM RD. I can > see that MEM WR is never asserted, but MEM RD is asserted. I do see WR > being asserted on the input side immediately after startup, but then it isn= 't > asserted again. >=20 > It is possible that the firmware is in a loop before it gets to the RAM tes= t, > possibly because the 8228 driver is not working. >=20 > Regards >=20 > Rob >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jonathan Chapman > > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2023 5:18 PM > > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > > Posts > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 > > > > HLDA should be deasserted, that puts the processor in a DMA mode where > > it releases all the control signals. > > > > I/O W is asserted low when OUT is high and the low WR pulse comes > along. > > It's both status and timing, coming out of the 8228. > > > > You would probably do well seeing if MEMR and MEMW are asserting. If > > the program is running off due to e.g. bad RAM, ROM bitrot, etc. you > > may never see the I/O lines assert. > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > > > ------- Original Message ------- > > On Sunday, July 9th, 2023 at 12:12, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually I have just found a more detailed description in the Intel > > > 8080 Microcomputer Systems Users Manual 1975, but it still doesn't > > > tell me exactly how it works. It isn't completely clear to me if it > > > needs HLDA to be asserted for I/O W to be asserted. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Rob Jarratt via cctalk cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2023 4:39 PM > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > > > Cc: Rob Jarratt robert.jarratt(a)ntlworld.com > > > > Subject: [cctalk] VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I have a non-functioning VT100. I think I may have isolated the > > > > problem to > > > > > > an > > > > > > > Intel 8228 chip (or 88228, the schematic says 8228, the part is > > > > marked 88228C). Certainly, the part gets a bit hot and it doesn't > > > > seem to be outputting anything on the I/O W pin (pin 27) despite > > > > activity on STSTB > > > > > > (pin > > > > > > > 1), DBIN (pin 4) and WR (Pin 3). There is no activity on the HLDA > > > > input though, but I am not sure if that is required because I > > > > think the firmware > > > > > > is > > > > > > > just trying to send its status to the keyboard LEDs. > > > > > > > > I can find a brief datasheet for the 8228 but it doesn't tell me > > > > the logic > > > > > > for > > > > > > > producing the I/O W signal, so I am not sure if it is behaving as > > > > it > > > > > > should. > > > > > > > Does anyone have more comprehensive information on how the 8228 is > > > > supposed to work? > > > > > > > > I have dumped the ROMs and been able to capture the ROM reads and > > > > they match the disassembled code, so I think the 8080 CPU itself > > > > is > > working. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob --===============8972191516665528921==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jul 16 18:43:28 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Hypertext/Ted Nelson (Was: Don Lancaster has passed away at 83 Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 11:43:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0772073979430127073==" --===============0772073979430127073== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 16 Jul 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > more about Don and also Ted Nelson, author of Computer Lib. And speaking > of Ted, I wish I could grasp/understand Project Xanadu better. My only > explanation is that our typical/classical approach to "file management" has > borrowed all the concepts of the physical world -- a desktop, a cabinet > with drawers, containing folders and files. But in cyberspace there was no > real reason to follow that model, and we could have had a better approach > to linking information (in some more bi-directional fashion). I don't know > if that comes close to Xanadu's ideals, but that's my gist understanding. > Our spoken languages I think sometimes make it difficult to convey novel > ideas sometimes. It takes some work to follow Ted's writings. It might help a little to read Vannevar Bush's "As We May Think". https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/ https://www.w3.org/History/1945/vbush/vbush.shtml Bush didn't like, nor fully understand the concept of hierarchicaal=20 organization of information. Instead, he was into a more conversational=20 sequential model, where threads would take off on tangents. OB_past-futures (The obligatory predictions of what will be to come):=20 "microfilm replica. The Encyclopoedia Britannica could be reduced to the=20 volume of a matchbox. . . . The material for the microfilm Britannica=20 would cost a nickel, and it could be mailed anywhere for a cent." [Every new storage medium uses Emcyclopedia Britannica, and/or a mythical=20 version of Library Of Congess that actually stores every published work. At a party at Comdex, a few decades back, a [possibly inebriated] engineer=20 working for EB said, "It'll never happen. We are not in the information=20 business; we are in the leather bookbinding usiness" Many people reading "As We May Think" get the impression that Bush implied=20 that he had built it. He had not, it was purely speculative. Several=20 aspects were not practical with the current technology, such as that flash=20 tubes of the time were NOT fast enough to freeze [for reading] a streaming=20 microfilm. Bush was known for not always crediting those whose work he built on.=20 Buckland documented the work of Emanuel Goldberg, who was an earlier=20 creator of a microfilm selector (recording a few bits on the edge of the=20 film, to permit machine readable recognition of frames), particularly in=20 the context of Bush's work. https://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/goldbush.html The lack of credit raises some questions of academic integrity. In contrast, Ted credited Bush, and Tim Berners-Lee credited Ted and Bush. But, even with the background of Bush's concepts, Ted's writings require=20 dedicated work to understand. However, "Hyperland", a 1990 [pre-WWW] BBC documentary about the future of=20 the internet, which he co-authored with Douglas Adams, and starring Tom=20 Baker, is completely watchable. (although no really good prints of it are=20 extant) https://archive.org/details/DouglasAdams-Hyperland If you want subtitles/captions, 5 years ago, I created an .SRT (camptions fil= e) of it! .SRT file: (view with an ASCII plain-text text editor, such as Notepad) http://www.xenosoft.com/HyperlandCAPS_En_US_0_77.srt https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4hCJm9ZEADCblVSVlBxdmZyREU/view?usp=3Ddrive= _web (400MB video with subtitles burned in) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0772073979430127073==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Mon Jul 17 03:57:10 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] How to archive floppies Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 21:56:52 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7506801965262048401==" --===============7506801965262048401== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK. I have about 500 DEC Ranibow floppy images that I've ripped over the years. I also have a number of .td0 images as well as other oddballs. Other than Lotus 123 needing to have funky sectors on one of its bigger tracks for copy protection, I think having the raw images suffice. I have some disks that I have multiple copies of (MS-DOS, CP/M, Winchester Utilities, DEC Rainbow diagnostics etc).I have a few copies of some software packages. I have a few disks that are clearly personal. And some of the variations of MS-DOS have different patches applied by various install programs (or debug scripts published in different trade rags of the time). And at least one has a special driver installed that overwrites the DEC Winchester for things like Univation). So, what I'd like to do is to is somehow organize all this. I wrote some software to extract files from the filesystem.So I'd like to have a separate copy of the expanded files. Lots of moving parts for 40-year-old floppies. I'm struggling with how to organize all this, how to keep track of this, and how to allow others to contribute their disk images and allow things to be studied and run. I'd like to keep the raw images (to mine them for drivers like the univation one I discovered). I'd like to keep the busted apart files to access them more easily, etc. Is there some book, website, paper, etc that I can use to to help me organize all this so I can share it with others? Is this even the right place to ask? There's got to be several people that have solved this issue before.... Warner --===============7506801965262048401==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Jul 17 04:42:58 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to archive floppies Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 21:42:51 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0601630258075459739==" --===============0601630258075459739== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 16 Jul 2023, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > OK. I have about 500 DEC Ranibow floppy images that I've ripped over the > years. > > I also have a number of .td0 images as well as other oddballs. > > Other than Lotus 123 needing to have funky sectors on one of its bigger > tracks for copy protection, I think having the raw images suffice. > > I have some disks that I have multiple copies of (MS-DOS, CP/M, Winchester > Utilities, DEC Rainbow diagnostics etc).I have a few copies of some > software packages. I have a few disks that are clearly personal. And some > of the variations of MS-DOS have different patches applied by various > install programs (or debug scripts published in different trade rags of the > time). And at least one has a special driver installed that overwrites the > DEC Winchester for things like Univation). > > So, what I'd like to do is to is somehow organize all this. I wrote some > software to extract files from the filesystem.So I'd like to have a > separate copy of the expanded files. > > Lots of moving parts for 40-year-old floppies. I'm struggling with how to > organize all this, how to keep track of this, and how to allow others to > contribute their disk images and allow things to be studied and run. I'd > like to keep the raw images (to mine them for drivers like the univation > one I discovered). I'd like to keep the busted apart files to access them > more easily, etc. > > Is there some book, website, paper, etc that I can use to to help me > organize all this so I can share it with others? Is this even the right > place to ask? There's got to be several people that have solved this issue > before.... > > Warner A few thoughts, . . . There are readily available patches to remove the copy protection from Lotus. I would be hesitant to trust my data to a program that relied on anything as precarious as an "uncopyable disk" And make special labels for all such special disks, as reminders. make copies of DOS progams, and remove the version number checking. Don't rely on SETVER. For example, besides all of the utilities that come with DOS, LINK.EXE and EXE2BIN have version number checking. Label them! Version number checking was created due to disasters from running DOS 1.00 CHKDSK on DOS 1.10 and 2.00 disks! In most cases it is trivial; search for MOV AH, 30h Int 21h and gut the conditional branch that follows. (in some cases that is quite similar to the removal of copy protection) Keep some of the old hardware. You might not expect that a program (such as the drivers for the Cordata laser printer) to refuse to run on a newer processor. I dedicated an XT for it. Set up a cool, dry storage for the originals. Have moderately extreme redundancy of your copies of everything. Different media, and different locations. Index by function, name, and chronology. . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0601630258075459739==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Mon Jul 17 05:24:38 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:24:19 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001d9b808$e70bce20$b5236a60$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2326387077475869407==" --===============2326387077475869407== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Common DSO trigger problems experienced by a novice are: 1) Trigger position is off the screen. The trigger position relative to the current visible capture is typically shown somewhere on the screen - often at the top of the screen. Reduce the horizontal resolution to something like 10 ms/division and then scroll the trigger position to be in the exact centre of the screen and then increase the horizontal resolution to something suitable e.g 500 ns/division. Typically the DSO will keep the trigger position centred if you had it close enough to the centre position before increasing the horizontal resolution. 2) The horizontal resolution is set so that the pulse is invisible. For example 1 ms/division for a 10 ns pulse. 3) Triggering on the wrong channel. 4) Trigger level above or below the signal. 5) Trigger mode set to "Auto" as opposed to "Normal" or "Single" causing a momentary display of the triggered signal which is immediately overwritten by the current signal. Tom Hunter On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 1:14 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I used a logic analyser to check the 8228 and it does appear to be working > as expected as can be seen here > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2023/07/8228-operation.jpg. The > labels are not very clear, but the 3rd from top is the WR input and the 4th > from top is the I/O W output. So it does look like it is working. > > The odd thing is that I can't pick this up with my DSO. I have tried > messing with the trigger, but I just can't pick up anything that shows I/O > W going low. I am using -ve edge triggers. I have tried a pulse trigger > with a width >20ns and I have tried nth edge trigger, neither of the latter > two ever trigger. Obviously it is my method that is wrong, but I really > don't know what it is about my method that is wrong. Are there any common > mistakes that novices make? > > Thanks > > > --===============2326387077475869407==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jul 17 14:51:44 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 10 types of people Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 10:51:35 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5087422916670666448==" --===============5087422916670666448== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seen on the GCC bugzilla: "actually, there are 10 types of people: those who understand ternary, those = who dont, and those who thought this was going to be a binary joke" :-) paul --===============5087422916670666448==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Mon Jul 17 14:55:25 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 10 types of people Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 08:55:08 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0192232279183842643==" --===============0192232279183842643== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 8:51 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Seen on the GCC bugzilla: > > "actually, there are 10 types of people: those who understand ternary, > those who dont, and those who thought this was going to be a binary joke" > I almost didn't open this... but I'm glad I did... though those sets aren't completely disjoint... otherwise I neither understand nor don't understand ternary :) Warner :-) > > paul > > --===============0192232279183842643==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Mon Jul 17 16:28:25 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:28:08 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7616920387500354298==" --===============7616920387500354298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I just noticed that images of a full RX50 floppy set for Ultrix-32m 1.2 was posted on Bitsavers ( http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/vax/ultrix/1.2/ULTRIX-32M_V1.2_RX= 50_1986.zip ). I am having difficulty parsing these images into a usable raw format for SIMH. As a reference, TUHS has a set of 1.0 floppies ( https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/DEC/Ultrix-32M/ ) that are usable for installation purposes. (You can ignore the 1.2 floppies in that archive, they aren't actually a full set). The first disk of that installer, 32m-1.0-bin/01, has a bootloader that starts at byte zero as we would expect. This should be approximately equivalent to disk 1 in the Bitsavers set. Oddly though, in the "raw" dump the bootloader doesn't start until 0x1400, and a number of the other disks I looked at appear to have odd holes/zeroes in them. IMD format dumps of the 1.2 disks are provided but when I converted the IMD format to a raw image I got the same issue. I'm almost thoroughly unfamiliar with IMD - is there some obvious extraction/conversion option that I am missing here? Were these disks actually imaged correctly? I would appreciate any suggestions. -Henry --===============7616920387500354298==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jul 17 16:47:55 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 09:47:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3076893071089202994==" --===============3076893071089202994== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/17/23 09:28, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > I just noticed that images of a full RX50 floppy set for Ultrix-32m 1.2 was > posted on Bitsavers ( > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/vax/ultrix/1.2/ULTRIX-32M_V1.2_= RX50_1986.zip > ). I am having difficulty parsing these images into a usable raw format > for SIMH. >=20 > As a reference, TUHS has a set of 1.0 floppies ( > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/DEC/Ultrix-32M/ ) that are > usable for installation purposes. (You can ignore the 1.2 floppies in that > archive, they aren't actually a full set). The first disk of that > installer, 32m-1.0-bin/01, has a bootloader that starts at byte zero as we > would expect. This should be approximately equivalent to disk 1 in the > Bitsavers set. Oddly though, in the "raw" dump the bootloader doesn't > start until 0x1400, and a number of the other disks I looked at appear to > have odd holes/zeroes in them. IMD format dumps of the 1.2 disks are > provided but when I converted the IMD format to a raw image I got the same > issue. >=20 > I'm almost thoroughly unfamiliar with IMD - is there some obvious > extraction/conversion option that I am missing here? Were these disks > actually imaged correctly? I would appreciate any suggestions. A quick glance at the RAW dumps tells me that the sectors are interleaved. I haven't checked to see if it's the standard FILES-11 interleave, but it looks likely. --Chuck --===============3076893071089202994==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Mon Jul 17 16:48:23 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:48:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3680692161285598667==" --===============3680692161285598667== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 12:28=E2=80=AFPM Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > I just noticed that images of a full RX50 floppy set for Ultrix-32m 1.2 was > posted on Bitsavers ( > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/vax/ultrix/1.2/ULTRIX-32M_V1.2_= RX50_1986.zip > ). I am having difficulty parsing these images into a usable raw format > for SIMH. You are not the first to encounter this. > Oddly though, in the "raw" dump the bootloader doesn't > start until 0x1400, and a number of the other disks I looked at appear to > have odd holes/zeroes in them. IMD format dumps of the 1.2 disks are > provided but when I converted the IMD format to a raw image I got the same > issue. Yes. IMD->raw just decompresses the IMD format back into the exact number of bytes, in the same order, of the original media. Keep reading for why this is not sufficient... > I'm almost thoroughly unfamiliar with IMD - is there some obvious > extraction/conversion option that I am missing here? Were these disks > actually imaged correctly? I would appreciate any suggestions. This is not an IMD issue. IMD files are numbered as they come off the media and can be written back out, as is, to make physical media, which was the primary purpose. For nearly all cases, this also happens to match sequential sector order so that the same data can be used for emulators (simh and others). The one case where the two situations don't match is the RX50. What DEC did was to put a software-defined sector interleave and track shifting into their RX50 controllers (RQDX1 et al). In addition to the sectors on the disk not being in "logical filesystem order", track 0 gets moved to the end of the list From: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt "The RX50 floppy starts at track 1. Track 0 is logically placed after track 79. The sectors are interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. The track shift and interleave must be taken into account when moving disks between real PDP-11 and emulators." --===============3680692161285598667==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Mon Jul 17 16:51:18 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:51:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4930706322494635051==" --===============4930706322494635051== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 12:48=E2=80=AFPM Ethan Dicks wrote: > From: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt > > "The RX50 floppy starts at track 1. Track 0 is logically placed after > track 79. The sectors are interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, > 10. The track shift and interleave must be taken into account when > moving disks between real PDP-11 and emulators." Let me point out that this webpage quote accidentally lists too many sectors for an RX50. It should be "... interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8..." There is no "sector 10" when counting from 0. -ethan --===============4930706322494635051==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jul 17 16:57:25 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:56:56 -0400 Message-ID: <0D3BB044-BB29-442A-8B13-A7D096E44769@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7409509151483721249==" --===============7409509151483721249== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 17, 2023, at 12:28 PM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > I just noticed that images of a full RX50 floppy set for Ultrix-32m 1.2 was > posted on Bitsavers ( > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/vax/ultrix/1.2/ULTRIX-32M_V1.2_= RX50_1986.zip > ). I am having difficulty parsing these images into a usable raw format > for SIMH. >=20 > As a reference, TUHS has a set of 1.0 floppies ( > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/DEC/Ultrix-32M/ ) that are > usable for installation purposes. (You can ignore the 1.2 floppies in that > archive, they aren't actually a full set). The first disk of that > installer, 32m-1.0-bin/01, has a bootloader that starts at byte zero as we > would expect. This should be approximately equivalent to disk 1 in the > Bitsavers set. Oddly though, in the "raw" dump the bootloader doesn't > start until 0x1400, and a number of the other disks I looked at appear to > have odd holes/zeroes in them. IMD format dumps of the 1.2 disks are > provided but when I converted the IMD format to a raw image I got the same > issue. It's unfortunate that there is no description of what format these image file= s have. From your description it looks like these are physical track/sector ordered c= opies of the floppy, while SIMH for the RX50 container files wants to see log= ical order. One tool that can convert between the two is the "rx50.py" utili= ty that is part of my RSTSFLX V3 tool, a RSTS file system handler in Python. = You can find it at svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/flx/trunk (that's a Subversion = repository). Note that the rstsflx in the "simtools" repository of Open-SIMH= is V2, that's an entirely different version written in C. It also has the i= nterleave algorithm but no command line tool analogous to the rx50.py tool. The key element is that logical track 0 is physical track 1, and similarly al= l the others differ by one except logical track 79 which is physical track 0.= That fits what you stated: bootloader starting at 0x1400, that is sector 10= so the first sector in physical track 1. The other parts of the address translation are: sectors on the track are 2:1 = interleaved, and there is a 2 sector skew from each track to the next. So, f= or example, logical sector 0 is physical track 1 sector 0; logical sector 1 i= s physical track 1 sector 2; local sector 5 is physical track 1 sector 1, and= logical sector 10 is physical track 2 sector 2. What you need to do is to invert that interleave algorithm to convert from th= e physical sector order to the logical. =20 paul --===============7409509151483721249==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Mon Jul 17 16:59:13 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:58:55 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1075246687456515692==" --===============1075246687456515692== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 12:48=E2=80=AFPM Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 12:28=E2=80=AFPM Henry Bent via cctalk > > I'm almost thoroughly unfamiliar with IMD - is there some obvious > > extraction/conversion option that I am missing here? As mentioned previously, yes. There's an additional step that has to happen to any direct imaging of RX50 disks. John Wilson's PUTR happens to do this convolution internally. If you desire is to snapshot physical media for rewriting later, IMD is excellent. If you want logical-block-order files for simh, you need one more step (keep reading). > Were these disks actually imaged correctly? I would appreciate any sugges= tions. Yes they were. > From: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt > > "The RX50 floppy starts at track 1. Track 0 is logically placed after > track 79. The sectors are interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, > 10. The track shift and interleave must be taken into account when > moving disks between real PDP-11 and emulators." I have had good luck with a secfor convolver from the same page as this comme= nt: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/lbn2rx50.c It will go both ways, to and from physical block order and logical block orde= r. Cheers, -ethan --===============1075246687456515692==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jul 17 17:05:51 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:05:22 -0400 Message-ID: <1C3EE801-88CA-43FD-BA53-6DE5232CDD36@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3214629525819344245==" --===============3214629525819344245== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 17, 2023, at 12:51 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 12:48=E2=80=AFPM Ethan Dicks wrote: >> From: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt >>=20 >> "The RX50 floppy starts at track 1. Track 0 is logically placed after >> track 79. The sectors are interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, >> 10. The track shift and interleave must be taken into account when >> moving disks between real PDP-11 and emulators." >=20 > Let me point out that this webpage quote accidentally lists too many > sectors for an RX50. >=20 > It should be "... interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8..." There > is no "sector 10" when counting from 0. >=20 > -ethan I don't know what to make of that web page's description, it certainly doesn'= t have much connection to reality. Are those numbers supposed to represent t= he placement of logical sector numbers onto the physical track? If so, they = show 5:1 interleave rather than 2:1 interleave. Or do they represent the phy= sical sector numbers for consecutive logical sectors? If so, it seems to be = backwards. The actual algorithm is what I wrote in my previous email, which you can also= find in my RSTSFLX tools. That has been tested against real world RX50 flop= pies, and against the source code of the RT11 RX50 driver. paul --===============3214629525819344245==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Mon Jul 17 17:06:22 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:06:05 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2792887153501277729==" --===============2792887153501277729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 at 12:59, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > From: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt > > > > "The RX50 floppy starts at track 1. Track 0 is logically placed after > > track 79. The sectors are interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, > > 10. The track shift and interleave must be taken into account when > > moving disks between real PDP-11 and emulators." > > I have had good luck with a secfor convolver from the same page as this > comment: > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/lbn2rx50.c > > It will go both ways, to and from physical block order and logical block > order. > That seems to have worked perfectly. Thank you for the utility and the explanation. Now off to working on the next steps! -Henry --===============2792887153501277729==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Mon Jul 17 17:16:50 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 11:16:32 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8179886101176607640==" --===============8179886101176607640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 10:59 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 12:48=E2=80=AFPM Ethan Dicks > wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 12:28=E2=80=AFPM Henry Bent via cctalk > > > I'm almost thoroughly unfamiliar with IMD - is there some obvious > > > extraction/conversion option that I am missing here? > > As mentioned previously, yes. There's an additional step that has to > happen to any direct imaging of RX50 disks. John Wilson's PUTR > happens to do this convolution internally. > > If you desire is to snapshot physical media for rewriting later, IMD > is excellent. If you want logical-block-order files for simh, you > need one more step (keep reading). > > > Were these disks actually imaged correctly? I would appreciate any > suggestions. > > Yes they were. > > > From: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt > > > > "The RX50 floppy starts at track 1. Track 0 is logically placed after > > track 79. The sectors are interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, > > 10. The track shift and interleave must be taken into account when > > moving disks between real PDP-11 and emulators." > > I have had good luck with a secfor convolver from the same page as this > comment: > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/lbn2rx50.c > > It will go both ways, to and from physical block order and logical block > order. > I've encountered this with Rainbow disks. I have a logical to phys conversion program. Also when i wrote the impdrive driver for the rainbow: you have to do the unmapping the Z80 code would do to make the 3.5" 720k floppy work in the Rainbow. The physical sectors are numbered 1-10 on the drive (maybe past track 0 and 1). And it is 1-10, there is no sector 0. These sectors refer to the logical sectors 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 2, 4, 6, 8 ,10. My program filters the 'physical' disk into a 'logical' oneso that mtools can read the FAT contained on my MS-DOS disks. On the Rainbow, at least, the WD floppy controller didn't mess with the sectors, so the interleave was done at the lowest levels of whatever OS' floppy driver. Chances are quite good that there's a mismatch somewhere. If you always read in one way and write in that same way, it works (eg, both ends agree). Sometimes you need to convert from one to the other, which I always have to do via trial and error. For Venix, there was a different interleave (because of course there is), so there may be some experimenting that's needed. But since it is Unix, I suspect Ultrix may have its own interleave, but who knows. I've not looked at the source. I believe I've uploaded these to github, but can't find them at the moment. I can look if people want. This may be all that's needed. It's been handy for both DOS and Venix disks I've had to decode. Warner > --===============8179886101176607640==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Mon Jul 17 18:12:43 2023 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:12:15 -0500 Message-ID: <7932304d-8653-d2f2-2dbd-16a0808cf4d1@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6619109313030650548==" --===============6619109313030650548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have had good luck with a secfor convolver from the same page as this=20 comment: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/lbn2rx50.cIt will go both ways,=20 to and from physical block order and logical block order. For people=20 working on P/OS or RSX, without a c compiler, here is a utility that can=20 convert from track/sector order to LBN order.=20 https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2018/02/rsx-utility-for-converting-track-sector.ht= ml -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)ccomcast.net --===============6619109313030650548==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Mon Jul 17 18:42:19 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 14:42:01 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9184312769771940037==" --===============9184312769771940037== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 at 13:06, Henry Bent wrote: > On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 at 12:59, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> > From: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt >> > >> > "The RX50 floppy starts at track 1. Track 0 is logically placed after >> > track 79. The sectors are interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, >> > 10. The track shift and interleave must be taken into account when >> > moving disks between real PDP-11 and emulators." >> >> I have had good luck with a secfor convolver from the same page as this >> comment: >> >> http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/lbn2rx50.c >> >> It will go both ways, to and from physical block order and logical block >> order. >> > > That seems to have worked perfectly. Thank you for the utility and the > explanation. Now off to working on the next steps! > > -Henry > A brief follow-up on this: After lots of (virtual) disk-swapping I was able to upgrade an existing 1.0 system but was not able to install a 1.2 system from scratch. It seems that there is some sort of bootloader issue with a clean install, which I suspect might be a SIMH problem and I will follow up there after some more investigation. I truly feel for the folks who had to do this at the time, using 38 floppies on a MicroVAX I. The installer does give time estimates for certain milestones so that you could go and get a coffee or whatever. "Configuring vmunix, this takes about 30 minutes" is certainly indicative of the relative speed of the machine at the time. Also there is an indication that there was a tape distribution but so far that has not surfaced. I'm not even sure what medium that would have been - RC25? --===============9184312769771940037==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Mon Jul 17 18:53:53 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 14:53:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1C3EE801-88CA-43FD-BA53-6DE5232CDD36@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3333901026141036614==" --===============3333901026141036614== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > On Jul 17, 2023, at 12:51 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 12:48=E2=80=AFPM Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> From: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt > >> > >> "The RX50 floppy starts at track 1. Track 0 is logically placed after > >> track 79. The sectors are... > > > > It should be "... interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8..." There > > is no "sector 10" when counting from 0. > > > > -ethan > > I don't know what to make of that web page's description, it certainly does= n't have much connection to reality. Are those numbers supposed to represent= the placement of logical sector numbers onto the physical track? If so, the= y show 5:1 interleave rather than 2:1 interleave. Or do they represent the p= hysical sector numbers for consecutive logical sectors? If so, it seems to b= e backwards. It looks like it represents how to go from a physical track to get things back in the logical order that one would see from a PDP-11 or VAX on real hardware - i.e., the boot block (if any) is the very first thing you encounter. I agree, it's not a 2:1 interleave in any classic sense. > The actual algorithm is what I wrote in my previous email, which you can al= so find in my RSTSFLX tools. That has been tested against real world RX50 fl= oppies, and against the source code of the RT11 RX50 driver. Chuck Dickman's algorithm is in lbn2rx50.c #define RX50_TRACKS 80 #define RX50_SECTORS 10 int interleave[] =3D { 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 }; track =3D lbn/RX50_SECTORS; track =3D (track + 1)%RX50_TRACKS; sector =3D lbn%RX50_SECTORS; sector =3D (interleave[sector] + 2*(track - 1) + RX50_SECTORS)%RX50_SECTO= RS; -ethan --===============3333901026141036614==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Mon Jul 17 18:57:02 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:56:44 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9032943668179978392==" --===============9032943668179978392== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 12:42 PM Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 at 13:06, Henry Bent wrote: > > > On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 at 12:59, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> > From: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt > >> > > >> > "The RX50 floppy starts at track 1. Track 0 is logically placed after > >> > track 79. The sectors are interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, > >> > 10. The track shift and interleave must be taken into account when > >> > moving disks between real PDP-11 and emulators." > >> > >> I have had good luck with a secfor convolver from the same page as this > >> comment: > >> > >> http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/lbn2rx50.c > >> > >> It will go both ways, to and from physical block order and logical block > >> order. > >> > > > > That seems to have worked perfectly. Thank you for the utility and the > > explanation. Now off to working on the next steps! > > > > -Henry > > > > A brief follow-up on this: After lots of (virtual) disk-swapping I was able > to upgrade an existing 1.0 system but was not able to install a 1.2 system > from scratch. It seems that there is some sort of bootloader issue with a > clean install, which I suspect might be a SIMH problem and I will follow up > there after some more investigation. > > I truly feel for the folks who had to do this at the time, using 38 > floppies on a MicroVAX I. The installer does give time estimates for > certain milestones so that you could go and get a coffee or whatever. > "Configuring vmunix, this takes about 30 minutes" is certainly indicative > of the relative speed of the machine at the time. Also there is an > indication that there was a tape distribution but so far that has not > surfaced. I'm not even sure what medium that would have been - RC25? > Doing a VMS install, twice, on a microvax ii is what convinced the powers that be to get a tk50... and an eagle 400mb drive... or at least put them over the edge to proposing work that got the upgrade funded... iirc... The VMS install was on a crazy number of floppies, if you counted all the layered products and third party packages... Warner > --===============9032943668179978392==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Mon Jul 17 19:06:16 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 15:06:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6677743862703676250==" --===============6677743862703676250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 at 14:56, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 12:42 PM Henry Bent via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> I truly feel for the folks who had to do this at the time, using 38 >> floppies on a MicroVAX I. The installer does give time estimates for >> certain milestones so that you could go and get a coffee or whatever. >> "Configuring vmunix, this takes about 30 minutes" is certainly indicative >> of the relative speed of the machine at the time. Also there is an >> indication that there was a tape distribution but so far that has not >> surfaced. I'm not even sure what medium that would have been - RC25? >> > > Doing a VMS install, twice, on a microvax ii is what convinced the powers > that be to get a tk50... and an eagle 400mb drive... or at least put them > over the edge to proposing work that got the upgrade funded... iirc... The > VMS install was on a crazy number of floppies, if you counted all the > layered products and third party packages... > > Warner > Ah, after a little research I see that the TK50 was introduced in mid-1985, and it was available for the MicroVAX I, so with Ultrix-32m 1.2 being shipped in 1986 it makes sense that it could have been distributed on a TK50. I did not previously think that the TK50 had been available that early. -Henry --===============6677743862703676250==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jul 17 21:34:06 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 14:33:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1710390384527973979==" --===============1710390384527973979== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/17/23 11:53, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Chuck Dickman's algorithm is in lbn2rx50.c >=20 > #define RX50_TRACKS 80 > #define RX50_SECTORS 10 >=20 > int interleave[] =3D { 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 }; >=20 > track =3D lbn/RX50_SECTORS; > track =3D (track + 1)%RX50_TRACKS; >=20 > sector =3D lbn%RX50_SECTORS; > sector =3D (interleave[sector] + 2*(track - 1) + RX50_SECTORS)%RX50_SEC= TORS; Depends on the application. Files-11 RX50 encoding is a bit stranger, with Track 79 mapped to physical track 0. I can pass my algorithm along, if anyone is interested. On the other hand, DECMate II and Rainbow use sector interleave but not track skew. If anything can be said about DEC, they were consistent in their inconsistency. --Chuck --===============1710390384527973979==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Mon Jul 17 21:39:01 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 15:38:43 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0580234019029417669==" --===============0580234019029417669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 3:34 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/17/23 11:53, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > Chuck Dickman's algorithm is in lbn2rx50.c > > > > #define RX50_TRACKS 80 > > #define RX50_SECTORS 10 > > > > int interleave[] = { 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 }; > > > > track = lbn/RX50_SECTORS; > > track = (track + 1)%RX50_TRACKS; > > > > sector = lbn%RX50_SECTORS; > > sector = (interleave[sector] + 2*(track - 1) + > RX50_SECTORS)%RX50_SECTORS; > > Depends on the application. Files-11 RX50 encoding is a bit stranger, > with Track 79 mapped to physical track 0. > > I can pass my algorithm along, if anyone is interested. > > On the other hand, DECMate II and Rainbow use sector interleave but not > track skew. > > If anything can be said about DEC, they were consistent in their > inconsistency. > Yup. The Rainbow's track 0 and 1 were not interleaved to make the boot loader easier... I think the decmate did yhe same but with different tracks... The rainbow also had a cool partitioning format that looked like it was some general thing, but I never saw it elsewhere or have found an electronic copy of the printed docs I pulled off dec's tops20 support machine from the LSG in the late 80s Warner --Chuck > > > > --===============0580234019029417669==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jul 17 23:55:14 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 19:55:05 -0400 Message-ID: <5FC0C01F-97F5-4C26-B3F0-BD7A9C990955@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1875976503761959796==" --===============1875976503761959796== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 17, 2023, at 5:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 7/17/23 11:53, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Chuck Dickman's algorithm is in lbn2rx50.c >>=20 >> #define RX50_TRACKS 80 >> #define RX50_SECTORS 10 >>=20 >> int interleave[] =3D { 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 }; >>=20 >> track =3D lbn/RX50_SECTORS; >> track =3D (track + 1)%RX50_TRACKS; >>=20 >> sector =3D lbn%RX50_SECTORS; >> sector =3D (interleave[sector] + 2*(track - 1) + RX50_SECTORS)%RX50_SEC= TORS; >=20 > Depends on the application. Files-11 RX50 encoding is a bit stranger, > with Track 79 mapped to physical track 0. That's the RX50 standard mapping; Files-11 is not any different. Physical tr= acks are (logical track + 1) % 80, which is what the code cited above include= s. > I can pass my algorithm along, if anyone is interested. >=20 > On the other hand, DECMate II and Rainbow use sector interleave but not > track skew. >=20 > If anything can be said about DEC, they were consistent in their > inconsistency. Interesting, I did not know that about Rainbow etc. But PDP11 and VAX are co= nsistent (RQDX as well as Pro, the difference being that in the Pro the drive= r has to do the translation). paul --===============1875976503761959796==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Mon Jul 17 23:57:45 2023 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to archive floppies Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 19:23:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8747450463298600119==" --===============8747450463298600119== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 09:56:52PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > So, what I'd like to do is to is somehow organize all this. I wrote some > software to extract files from the filesystem.So I'd like to have a > separate copy of the expanded files. > What I did is use cgi-bin so site only has the media images and the file list is generated by my scripts. Also have a search function. Yes all somewhat dated now. What is in what directory is more tied to where they came from than anything logical so has issues. Haven't looked to know what is available for you to use off the shelf. Not saying what I did is the best way to do things but may have useful ideas. At least you don't have to deal with machine is 12 bit so files don't naturally transfer to machines with multiple's of 8 bit. http://www.pdp8online.com/images/ --===============8747450463298600119==-- From cctalk@snarc.net Tue Jul 18 05:32:53 2023 From: Evan Koblentz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 10 types of people Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 11:25:54 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4254377337953777225==" --===============4254377337953777225== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/17/23 10:51, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Seen on the GCC bugzilla: > > "actually, there are 10 types of people: those who understand ternary, thos= e who dont, and those who thought this was going to be a binary joke" > > :-) > > paul HA!!! Another version: "There are two types of people: Those who can=20 extrapolate from incomplete data..." --===============4254377337953777225==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Tue Jul 18 12:30:42 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 14:30:23 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6481080732029210251==" --===============6481080732029210251== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Some questions if you don't mind ;-)) - Could you please give some instructions how you managed to install V1.0? - What kind of error messages did you get when you wanted to install V1.2? - What microvax1 simulator did you use: the OpenSiḿh one or that from Simh (Mark Pizzolato)? - What is in your microvax1.ini file? This is what I get when trying to boot the 1st V1.0 floppy: Logging to file "ULT012_MV1_001.log" sim> b rq1 .2..1..0. Boot : ra(1,0)vmunix 186016+46652+44656 start 0x10bc Ultrix-32m V1.0 System #1: Fri Aug 17 11:57:07 EDT 1984 real mem = 2093056 avail mem = 1511424 using 102 buffers containing 208896 bytes of memory MicroVAX 1, microcode level = 5 Q22 bus rqd0 at bus0 csr 172150 vec 774, ipl 17 ra0 at rqd0 slave 0 ra1 at rqd0 slave 1 ra2 at rqd0 slave 2 panic: iinit syncing disks... done dumping to dev 901, offset 0 dump succeededRebooting... .2..1..0. Boot : ra(1,0)vmunix 186016+46652+44656 start 0x10bc ... Ulli Am Mo., 17. Juli 2023 um 20:42 Uhr schrieb Henry Bent via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 at 13:06, Henry Bent wrote: > > > On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 at 12:59, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> > From: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt > >> > > >> > "The RX50 floppy starts at track 1. Track 0 is logically placed after > >> > track 79. The sectors are interleaved 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, > >> > 10. The track shift and interleave must be taken into account when > >> > moving disks between real PDP-11 and emulators." > >> > >> I have had good luck with a secfor convolver from the same page as this > >> comment: > >> > >> http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/lbn2rx50.c > >> > >> It will go both ways, to and from physical block order and logical block > >> order. > >> > > > > That seems to have worked perfectly. Thank you for the utility and the > > explanation. Now off to working on the next steps! > > > > -Henry > > > > A brief follow-up on this: After lots of (virtual) disk-swapping I was able > to upgrade an existing 1.0 system but was not able to install a 1.2 system > from scratch. It seems that there is some sort of bootloader issue with a > clean install, which I suspect might be a SIMH problem and I will follow up > there after some more investigation. > > I truly feel for the folks who had to do this at the time, using 38 > floppies on a MicroVAX I. The installer does give time estimates for > certain milestones so that you could go and get a coffee or whatever. > "Configuring vmunix, this takes about 30 minutes" is certainly indicative > of the relative speed of the machine at the time. Also there is an > indication that there was a tape distribution but so far that has not > surfaced. I'm not even sure what medium that would have been - RC25? > --===============6481080732029210251==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Tue Jul 18 13:03:48 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring Ultrix-32m 1.2 Floppies Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 09:03:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5950271672823820473==" --===============5950271672823820473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 at 08:30, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Some questions if you don't mind ;-)) > Not at all! > > - Could you please give some instructions how you managed to install V1.0? > Yes, I suppose this should be documented, as I have been unable to find any installation documentation scans for Ultrix-32m 1.x. The installation process needs the disk to be rq0 and have two floppies, rq1 and rq2. 32m-bin-1.0/01 needs to be attached as the first floppy and 32m-1.0-bin/02 needs to be attached to the second floppy. I chose to use the RD52 for installation as 1.0 doesn't understand any of the larger RD-series disks. /etc/disktab does have entries for the RA80 and RA81 but my recollection is that trying to install to those disks didn't actually work. > - What kind of error messages did you get when you wanted to install V1.2? > It looks like there is an issue with the bootloader - the self-tests go into an infinite loop. I have yet to try moving the bootloader from 1.0 to the 1.2 system, but I believe this should work. > - What microvax1 simulator did you use: the OpenSiḿh one or that from Simh > (Mark Pizzolato)? > I am using OpenSIMH but I don't believe there are any significant differences between the two branches that would affect this system. > - What is in your microvax1.ini file? > Here is an INI file for installing 1.0; you don't have to use the QVSS but I enjoy the experience. set cpu idle=ULTRIX-1.X set cpu INSTRUCTIONS=D-FLOAT set tti 7b set tto 7b set cr dis set lpt dis set rl dis set rq0 rd52 att rq0 rd52.dsk # The installer freaks out if the floppies are locked! #set rq1 lock set rq1 rx50 att rq1 32m-1.0-bin/01 #set rq2 lock set rq2 rx50 att rq2 32m-1.0-bin/02 set rq3 dis set ts dis set tq dis set qvss enable set xq type=deqna # change this to whatever works in your environment att xq tap:tap1 boot --===============5950271672823820473==-- From Mark@Misty.com Wed Jul 19 00:03:26 2023 From: Mark G Thomas To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 19:56:48 -0400 Message-ID: <20230718235647.GA9893@dora.home.misty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4970098746290874281==" --===============4970098746290874281== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ The Vintage Computer Federation and the System Source Computer Museum are hosting a vintage computer repair workshop on Saturday July 22nd and Sunday July 23rd 2023 ... Mark -- Mark G. Thomas , KC3DRE --===============4970098746290874281==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Jul 19 00:06:00 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 00:05:39 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230718235647.GA9893@dora.home.misty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3846491330961847086==" --===============3846491330961847086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm going, there's going to be a fair bit of Ohio Scientific hacking going on= this weekend. We're going to try and get my CD-23 hard disk system up and go= ing and pull data off it (14" Shugart SA-4008) Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, July 18th, 2023 at 19:56, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. >=20 > https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ >=20 > The Vintage Computer Federation and the System Source Computer Museum are > hosting a vintage computer repair workshop on Saturday July 22nd and > Sunday July 23rd 2023 > ... >=20 > Mark >=20 > -- > Mark G. Thomas Mark(a)Misty.com, KC3DRE --===============3846491330961847086==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jul 19 00:08:13 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 17:07:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230718235647.GA9893@dora.home.misty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9188727704313248138==" --===============9188727704313248138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is that somewhere in Maryland? On Tue, 18 Jul 2023, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. > > https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ > > The Vintage Computer Federation and the System Source Computer Museum are > hosting a vintage computer repair workshop on Saturday July 22nd and > Sunday July 23rd 2023 > ... > > Mark > > -- > Mark G. Thomas , KC3DRE --===============9188727704313248138==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Jul 19 00:25:11 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 00:25:01 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2957050063690944929==" --===============2957050063690944929== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is that somewhere in Maryland? Yeah, Cockeysville, just outside Baltimore off I-83. Thanks, Jonathan --===============2957050063690944929==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jul 19 00:56:48 2023 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 20:48:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2476153581839110621==" --===============2476153581839110621== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit System Source 338 Clubhouse Road Hunt Valley, MD 21031 On Tue, 18 Jul 2023, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is that somewhere in Maryland? > > > On Tue, 18 Jul 2023, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. >> >> https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ >> >> The Vintage Computer Federation and the System Source Computer Museum are >> hosting a vintage computer repair workshop on Saturday July 22nd and >> Sunday July 23rd 2023 >> ... >> >> Mark >> >> -- >> Mark G. Thomas , KC3DRE > > Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============2476153581839110621==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 19 02:48:11 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 21:48:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007001d9b346$d1cc4c90$7564e5b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6539523791522938206==" --===============6539523791522938206== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/10/23 10:54 AM, Ali wrote: > Hello All, Hi Ali, > I am wondering if anyone has a private or knows of a mirror for > ftp.compaq.com that is older than 2014? I'm watching a video talking about Protoweb and one of the ftp sites that they are talking about is ftp.compaq.com. The video in question is: Link - Protoweb - Reviving the '90s Internet! (Overview & Demo) - https://youtu.be/1FSd-XhGLqk I'm interested in checking out Protoweb for various reasons, but I figured that I'd let you, and fellow cctalk subscribers, know about the ftp.compaq.com archive. Grant. . . . --===============6539523791522938206==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Wed Jul 19 03:07:35 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 23:07:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8220845808837451318==" --===============8220845808837451318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 at 22:48, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/10/23 10:54=E2=80=AFAM, Ali wrote: > > Hello All, > > Hi Ali, > > > I am wondering if anyone has a private or knows of a mirror for > > ftp.compaq.com that is older than 2014? > I'm watching a video talking about Protoweb and one of the ftp sites > that they are talking about is ftp.compaq.com. > > The video in question is: > > Link - Protoweb - Reviving the '90s Internet! (Overview & Demo) > - https://youtu.be/1FSd-XhGLqk > > I'm interested in checking out Protoweb for various reasons, but I > figured that I'd let you, and fellow cctalk subscribers, know about the > ftp.compaq.com archive. > You could have just said "there's a site that set up a proxy server for browsing a moderate number of old mirrors of HTTP and FTP sites" and linked to that site instead of sending us a link to a youtube video. It's https://protoweb.org/ and this definitely seems to be aimed at an audience that wasn't alive when these browsers and websites were around. If it was aimed at the cctech crowd it could have been a very simple webpage that explains that they have an HTTP/FTP/Gopher proxy server at wayback.protoweb.com:7851 and you can then go to www.inode.com to see what's available. Instead that information is hidden under multiple layers of bizarre hand-holding. -Henry --===============8220845808837451318==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jul 19 14:08:34 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 10:08:27 -0400 Message-ID: <5d0dde6b-7a6a-c84d-1a9d-fe12206437e5@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <20230718235647.GA9893@dora.home.misty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6767558244566239935==" --===============6767558244566239935== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yep, I'm going to the swapfest early Saturday. Bringing a bunch of things I just don't need for sale including: pdp8/e AF01 (*Negibus A/D converter, 64 channels) SGI Indigo High Impact Mac Plus Dec BA11-S with power supply (working) Dec backplanes Lots of Q Bus cards Some Unibus cards My Pdp11/24 Pdp11/23+ CPUs I could bring the BA11-F Unibus Window if the price is right Diablo drive plus Q Bus adapter Things like that. On 7/18/2023 7:56 PM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. > > https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ > > The Vintage Computer Federation and the System Source Computer Museum are > hosting a vintage computer repair workshop on Saturday July 22nd and > Sunday July 23rd 2023 > ... > > Mark > --===============6767558244566239935==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Wed Jul 19 14:38:53 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 10:38:19 -0400 Message-ID: <995ca799-e5a5-308d-7eba-b4a73397ad96@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20230718235647.GA9893@dora.home.misty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0844647378878545968==" --===============0844647378878545968== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I plan on being there, for me it is a lot closer that the Swap Meet in Wall NJ on the same day. Doug On 7/18/2023 7:56 PM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. > > https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ > > The Vintage Computer Federation and the System Source Computer Museum are > hosting a vintage computer repair workshop on Saturday July 22nd and > Sunday July 23rd 2023 > ... > > Mark > --===============0844647378878545968==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Jul 19 15:27:24 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 09:28:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230718235647.GA9893@dora.home.misty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6935260953075097861==" --===============6935260953075097861== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yep, I'm going to the swapfest early Saturday. Bringing a bunch of things I just don't need for sale including: pdp8/e AF01 (*Negibus A/D converter, 64 channels) SGI Indigo High Impact Mac Plus Dec BA11-S with power supply (working) Dec backplanes Lots of Q Bus cards Some Unibus cards My Pdp11/24 Pdp11/23+ CPUs I could bring the BA11-F Unibus Window if the price is right Diablo drive plus Q Bus adapter Things like that. On 7/18/2023 7:56 PM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. > > https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ > > The Vintage Computer Federation and the System Source Computer Museum are > hosting a vintage computer repair workshop on Saturday July 22nd and > Sunday July 23rd 2023 > ... > > Mark > --===============6935260953075097861==-- From ethan@757.org Wed Jul 19 15:31:55 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 11:23:35 -0400 Message-ID: <31f42566-426c-4c74-78c4-4a829631ce88@757.org> In-Reply-To: <20230718235647.GA9893@dora.home.misty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7480581430941229454==" --===============7480581430941229454== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hi, > I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. > https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ I am heading up there with friends Friday night so we can get there early Saturday. Bringing some stuff to sell, nothing too crazy just odds and ends. PICMG Pentium rackmount machine and odds and ends for micros. Only system on my "to get" list is Acorn Archemedies. Looking forward to it, and I think System Source might be the #1 collection in the world. Very cool place. Say hi if you see me and are on this list. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============7480581430941229454==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jul 19 16:17:35 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OLD ftp.compaq.com Mirror? Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 09:17:35 -0700 Message-ID: <008c01d9ba5c$881ab6f0$985024d0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8532504346589166907==" --===============8532504346589166907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I'm watching a video talking about Protoweb and one of the ftp sites > that they are talking about is ftp.compaq.com. >=20 > The video in question is: >=20 > Link - Protoweb - Reviving the '90s Internet! (Overview & Demo) > - https://youtu.be/1FSd-XhGLqk >=20 > I'm interested in checking out Protoweb for various reasons, but I > figured that I'd let you, and fellow cctalk subscribers, know about the > ftp.compaq.com archive. Grant, Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately, I can't seem to get to the actual arc= hive on protoweb. I am sure it is some sort of config problem on my end. I wi= ll have to play with it some more this weekend. TBH I would be surprised that= they have an older mirror/more complete mirror. Archive.org actually has an = ok selection of crawls from Compaq.com but they of course never got any files= from the FTP. -Ali --===============8532504346589166907==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Jul 19 16:33:31 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 12:33:11 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <31f42566-426c-4c74-78c4-4a829631ce88@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0432770236788272091==" --===============0432770236788272091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/19/2023 11:23 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> Hi, >> I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. >> https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ > > I am heading up there with friends Friday night so we can get there > early Saturday. > > Bringing some stuff to sell, nothing too crazy just odds and ends. > PICMG Pentium rackmount machine and odds and ends for micros. > > Only system on my "to get" list is Acorn Archemedies. > > Looking forward to it, and I think System Source might be the #1 > collection in the world. Very cool place. > > Say hi if you see me and are on this list. > > All this chatter has made me interested in maybe making the drive (a bit over 3 hours). What time does it start on Saturday?  How would we know each other? :-) bill --===============0432770236788272091==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Wed Jul 19 17:26:49 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 13:26:13 -0400 Message-ID: <6c2d645a-8d0e-b3ff-1303-a8d0ab44565d@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55809A9328D55772C27FC6E0ED39A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5606609140974858852==" --===============5606609140974858852== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/19/2023 12:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/19/2023 11:23 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi, >>> I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. >>> https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ >> >> I am heading up there with friends Friday night so we can get there >> early Saturday. >> >> Bringing some stuff to sell, nothing too crazy just odds and ends. >> PICMG Pentium rackmount machine and odds and ends for micros. >> >> Only system on my "to get" list is Acorn Archemedies. >> >> Looking forward to it, and I think System Source might be the #1 >> collection in the world. Very cool place. >> >> Say hi if you see me and are on this list. >> >> > All this chatter has made me interested in maybe making the drive (a > bit over 3 hours). > > What time does it start on Saturday?  How would we know each other? :-) > > > bill > > Starts at 8AM, I think name tags would be a good idea so we can match a name we know only from the list to a face. Doug --===============5606609140974858852==-- From ethan@757.org Wed Jul 19 20:58:32 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 16:58:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0852005405343337916==" --===============0852005405343337916== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'll be there. Hello Ethan. Bring some good stuff for me to buy. jk. > -andy Years ago there was an auction of an Internet Kiosk company in Newport News Virginia. I decided to go. It was well advertised and run by a big company (probably Rasmus but I don't remember.) I get there. The crowd seemed to be a random bunch but it was well attended. Crowd was a mix of the flipper types, estate sales types maybe and a few geeks. I run into some people I knew from the BBS scene in my childhood. They could be troublemakers, but they tended to be funny. You know the type. We had separated ways years before and ran in different geek circles, but here they were. Kind of good seeing them again, but also obvious not much had changed. They were running a computer repair store, and purchased things like the filing cabinet full of customer records so they could market to them. They left test copies on all the copiers of ads for their adult website(s). I remember the auctioneer picking up the face down full coverage 8x11 paper ads in the output tray a little shocked on the mic "Looks like it works well..." Well one guy bids on this maxwell house can of screws. The hex head things that hold on the covers to your standard beige PC and the smaller ones that hold in the CD-ROMs and floppies. But not the hard drives, those use the case sized ones. Sold for $20 or whatever it was. I mean, it was pretty full but I thought it was a strange purchase. Some loud lady proclaims "Who on earth would pay $20 for a can of screws?" Everyone is watching, Geoff just shrugs. Doesn't say anything. She bids on this beige tower PC. Wins. Goes to pick it up and the cover slides right off. A lot of people see this. Kind of mortified she looks over at Geoff who is sitting on some furniture running his fingers through his $20 can of screws. He loudly says "Hey, I've got screws for sale a dollar each" once she looks over. Some are amused some confused. The auctioneer chuckles. --===============0852005405343337916==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jul 20 01:28:56 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 18:28:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1199729560294629162==" --===============1199729560294629162== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 1:58 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I'll be there. Hello Ethan. Bring some good stuff for me to buy. jk. > > -andy > > Years ago there was an auction of an Internet Kiosk company in Newport > News Virginia. I decided to go. It was well advertised and run by a big > company (probably Rasmus but I don't remember.) > > I get there. The crowd seemed to be a random bunch but it was well > attended. Crowd was a mix of the flipper types, estate sales types maybe > and a few geeks. > > I run into some people I knew from the BBS scene in my childhood. They > could be troublemakers, but they tended to be funny. You know the type. We > had separated ways years before and ran in different geek circles, but > here they were. Kind of good seeing them again, but also obvious not much > had changed. > > They were running a computer repair store, and purchased things like the > filing cabinet full of customer records so they could market to them. They > left test copies on all the copiers of ads for their adult website(s). I > remember the auctioneer picking up the face down full coverage 8x11 paper > ads in the output tray a little shocked on the mic "Looks like it works > well..." > > Well one guy bids on this maxwell house can of screws. The hex head things > that hold on the covers to your standard beige PC and the smaller ones > that hold in the CD-ROMs and floppies. But not the hard drives, those use > the case sized ones. > > Sold for $20 or whatever it was. I mean, it was pretty full but I thought > it was a strange purchase. > > Some loud lady proclaims "Who on earth would pay $20 for a can of screws?" > Everyone is watching, Geoff just shrugs. Doesn't say anything. > > She bids on this beige tower PC. Wins. Goes to pick it up and the cover > slides right off. A lot of people see this. Kind of mortified she looks > over at Geoff who is sitting on some furniture running his fingers > through his $20 can of screws. He loudly says "Hey, I've got screws > for sale a dollar each" once she looks over. Some are amused some > confused. The auctioneer chuckles. > I, too, chuckle. Sellam --===============1199729560294629162==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Thu Jul 20 02:36:08 2023 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Death of Mitnick Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 22:35:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3355710644722154572==" --===============3355710644722154572== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe this note is off topic but I don't think so: The death of Kevin Mitnick. His book "Ghost in the Wire" is a classic. Too bad he was a criminal! Murray 🙂 --===============3355710644722154572==-- From shumaker@att.net Thu Jul 20 02:56:11 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 19:55:56 -0700 Message-ID: <9a5cc1c2-42cd-c083-7c02-8002e77c4dfc@att.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3325040426852228215==" --===============3325040426852228215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit what's your source for this? On 7/19/23 7:35 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Maybe this note is off topic but I don't think so: The death of Kevin > Mitnick. His book "Ghost in the Wire" is a classic. Too bad he was a > criminal! > > Murray 🙂 --===============3325040426852228215==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Thu Jul 20 03:06:51 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 19:58:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9a5cc1c2-42cd-c083-7c02-8002e77c4dfc@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6391457552495662443==" --===============6391457552495662443== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A quick google turned this up. https://www.securityweek.com/famed-hacker-kevin-mitnick-dead-at-59/ Zane > On Jul 19, 2023, at 7:55 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >=20 > what's your source for this? >=20 > On 7/19/23 7:35 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> Maybe this note is off topic but I don't think so: The death of Kevin >> Mitnick. His book "Ghost in the Wire" is a classic. Too bad he was a >> criminal! >>=20 >> Murray =F0=9F=99=82 >=20 --===============6391457552495662443==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Jul 20 03:07:39 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:07:32 -0700 Message-ID: <0LgJO6-1parhK2Rca-00neuZ@mrelay.perfora.net> In-Reply-To: <9a5cc1c2-42cd-c083-7c02-8002e77c4dfc@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5860915818256622074==" --===============5860915818256622074== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well there is his obituary..... plus news articles.... -------- Original message --------From: steve shumaker via cctalk Date: 7/19/23 7:56 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.or= g Cc: steve shumaker Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitn= ick what's your source for this?On 7/19/23 7:35 PM, Murray McCullough via cct= alk wrote:> Maybe this note is off topic but I don't think so: The death of K= evin> Mitnick. His book "Ghost in the Wire" is a classic. Too bad he was a> c= riminal!>> Murray =F0=9F=99=82 --===============5860915818256622074==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jul 20 03:35:43 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:35:21 -0700 Message-ID: <96fb56c8-063d-d66d-5c32-5ef4bbc46db0@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0646623810993570025==" --===============0646623810993570025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/19/23 19:58, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > A quick google turned this up. > > https://www.securityweek.com/famed-hacker-kevin-mitnick-dead-at-59/ Too bad, but on the other hand, John Draper turned 80 this year. Probably a better role model. --Chuck --===============0646623810993570025==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Thu Jul 20 04:41:10 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 23:40:59 -0500 Message-ID: <59d37064-bdc8-1473-952b-c4f9e11c45d2@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <96fb56c8-063d-d66d-5c32-5ef4bbc46db0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0541462211564119124==" --===============0541462211564119124== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/19/23 22:35, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/19/23 19:58, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> A quick google turned this up. >> >> https://www.securityweek.com/famed-hacker-kevin-mitnick-dead-at-59/ > Too bad, but on the other hand, John Draper turned 80 this year. > Probably a better role model. > > --Chuck > > https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/las-vegas-nv/kevin-mitnick-11371668 --===============0541462211564119124==-- From ethan@757.org Thu Jul 20 06:10:47 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 02:10:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <96fb56c8-063d-d66d-5c32-5ef4bbc46db0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6315009824517910392==" --===============6315009824517910392== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Too bad, but on the other hand, John Draper turned 80 this year. > Probably a better role model. > --Chuck > Hah! Funny! - Ethan --===============6315009824517910392==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jul 20 07:06:09 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 00:05:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <96fb56c8-063d-d66d-5c32-5ef4bbc46db0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0626229873264029457==" --===============0626229873264029457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 8:35 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/19/23 19:58, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > A quick google turned this up. > > > > https://www.securityweek.com/famed-hacker-kevin-mitnick-dead-at-59/ > > Too bad, but on the other hand, John Draper turned 80 this year. > Probably a better role model. > > --Chuck > Oh, god, no. Sellam > --===============0626229873264029457==-- From john@yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Jul 20 10:38:06 2023 From: John Many Jars To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 11:37:46 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2174564724477178365==" --===============2174564724477178365== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yeah, when I was young and foolish I never ... (: On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 at 03:36, Murray McCullough via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Maybe this note is off topic but I don't think so: The death of Kevin > Mitnick. His book "Ghost in the Wire" is a classic. Too bad he was a > criminal! > > Murray 🙂 > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift --===============2174564724477178365==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Thu Jul 20 12:33:37 2023 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 06:49:00 -0500 Message-ID: <20230720123333.2127A8723E@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5775648395052232533==" --===============5775648395052232533== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 02:05 AM 7/20/2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >On Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 8:35 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk >wrote: >> Too bad, but on the other hand, John Draper turned 80 this year. >> Probably a better role model. >> >> --Chuck > >Oh, god, no. Chuck's only saying that because he wasn't invited to "work out." - John --===============5775648395052232533==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 20 13:07:59 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 09:07:46 -0400 Message-ID: <15D97C34-79B6-4A6D-A909-8057E99AC10B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3218987288943042969==" --===============3218987288943042969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 19, 2023, at 10:35 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Maybe this note is off topic but I don't think so: The death of Kevin > Mitnick. His book "Ghost in the Wire" is a classic. Too bad he was a > criminal! I remember when we in RSTS/E development were at the receiving end of his att= acks. That would have been 1982 or thereabouts. We introduced a time-based = second key system, somewhat like the later cryptographic tokens, to keep him = out. paul --===============3218987288943042969==-- From dillera@gmail.com Thu Jul 20 13:18:56 2023 From: Andrew Diller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF and System Source Computer Museum swap meet this weekend Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 16:32:05 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <31f42566-426c-4c74-78c4-4a829631ce88@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7043198784295626899==" --===============7043198784295626899== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll be there. Hello Ethan. Bring some good stuff for me to buy. jk. -andy > On Jul 19, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Hi, >> I am curious if anyone here might be planning on attending. >> https://museum.syssrc.com/artifact/events/3000/ >=20 > I am heading up there with friends Friday night so we can get there early S= aturday. >=20 > Bringing some stuff to sell, nothing too crazy just odds and ends. PICMG Pe= ntium rackmount machine and odds and ends for micros. >=20 > Only system on my "to get" list is Acorn Archemedies. >=20 > Looking forward to it, and I think System Source might be the #1 collection= in the world. Very cool place. >=20 > Say hi if you see me and are on this list. >=20 > - Ethan >=20 >=20 > -- > : Ethan O'Toole >=20 >=20 --===============7043198784295626899==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Thu Jul 20 15:42:05 2023 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 08:35:50 -0700 Message-ID: <40232431-3720-359f-e39f-3b141257ba22@mainecoon.com> In-Reply-To: <20230720123333.2127A8723E@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7306926735671929442==" --===============7306926735671929442== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/20/23 04:49, John Foust via cctalk wrote: [snip] > Chuck's only saying that because he wasn't invited to "work out." Those of us who received such invites should form a club or somethin'. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…" --===============7306926735671929442==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jul 20 16:21:13 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 12:20:56 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <40232431-3720-359f-e39f-3b141257ba22@mainecoon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2992753292264409755==" --===============2992753292264409755== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a funny video of a bunch us including John at the DigiBarn about 20 years ago. Dan Kotke (sp?), Steve Russell, a few others. On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 11:42 AM Christian Kennedy via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 7/20/23 04:49, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > [snip] > > Chuck's only saying that because he wasn't invited to "work out." > > Those of us who received such invites should form a club or somethin'. > > > -- > Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. > chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 > http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…" > > --===============2992753292264409755==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jul 20 16:57:35 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 09:57:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <40232431-3720-359f-e39f-3b141257ba22@mainecoon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0458480535989809001==" --===============0458480535989809001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 8:42 AM Christian Kennedy via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 7/20/23 04:49, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > [snip] > > Chuck's only saying that because he wasn't invited to "work out." > > Those of us who received such invites should form a club or somethin'. > > -- > Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. > Survivors of John Draper Sellam --===============0458480535989809001==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Thu Jul 20 20:08:25 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 21:08:03 +0100 Message-ID: <00ca01d9bb45$e40aa260$ac1fe720$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0325024519199562794==" --===============0325024519199562794== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the suggestions but I think I was already aware of all of those. I= have double checked against your list and still don=E2=80=99t see the pulses= with the DSO. There has to be something else I am doing wrong =E2=98=B9 =20 From: Tom Hunter =20 Sent: 17 July 2023 06:24 To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: VT100: Datasheet for Intel 8228 =20 Common DSO trigger problems experienced by a novice are: =20 1) Trigger position is off the screen. The trigger position relative to the c= urrent visible capture is typically shown somewhere on the screen - often at = the top of the screen. Reduce the horizontal resolution to something like 10 = ms/division and then scroll the trigger position to be in the exact centre of= the screen and then increase the horizontal resolution to something suitable= e.g 500 ns/division. Typically the DSO will keep the trigger position centre= d if you had it close enough to the centre position before increasing the hor= izontal resolution. =20 2) The horizontal resolution is set so that the pulse is invisible. For examp= le 1 ms/division for a 10 ns pulse. =20 3) Triggering on the wrong channel. =20 4) Trigger level above or below the signal. =20 5) Trigger mode set to "Auto" as opposed to "Normal" or "Single" causing a mo= mentary display of the triggered signal which is immediately overwritten by t= he current signal. =20 Tom Hunter =20 On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 1:14=E2=80=AFAM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: I used a logic analyser to check the 8228 and it does appear to be working as= expected as can be seen here https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2023/07/82= 28-operation.jpg. The labels are not very clear, but the 3rd from top is the = WR input and the 4th from top is the I/O W output. So it does look like it is= working. The odd thing is that I can't pick this up with my DSO. I have tried messing = with the trigger, but I just can't pick up anything that shows I/O W going lo= w. I am using -ve edge triggers. I have tried a pulse trigger with a width >2= 0ns and I have tried nth edge trigger, neither of the latter two ever trigger= . Obviously it is my method that is wrong, but I really don't know what it is= about my method that is wrong. Are there any common mistakes that novices ma= ke? Thanks --===============0325024519199562794==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jul 20 21:14:57 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 14:14:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2225651981410464047==" --===============2225651981410464047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> [snip] >>> Chuck's only saying that because he wasn't invited to "work out." >> >> Those of us who received such invites should form a club or somethin'. On Thu, 20 Jul 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Survivors of John Draper I ran into John Draper often. When I got my PC Technical Reference Manual, but had not yet received a PC, I visited him in the gated community (to keep people out, not a prison) near the Caldicott Tunnel. We spent a couple of hours with the manual, and wrote trivial programs, such as putting characters on the screen with Int10h. He gave me a copy of the SCP assembler. We did not work out. At NCC in 1983, (when it was too hot for the tents), booth idiots at both Intertec/Superbrain and Telvideo told me that they would sue me if I included their disk formats in XenoCopy, because they could not understand any reason to transfer files between disk formats other than to steal their proprietary software. I added both format that night. I bought John lunch, and over air conditioned diner food, he told me the basics and directory structure for p-system disks. Very worthwhile for me. We did not work out. One time, he visited me at my office. At one point, he had a temper tantrum, yelling at people in the lobby of the building, because he thought that he smelled a cigarette. I did not invite him back. We did not work out. So, I was an acquaintance of John Draper, rather than a survivor, because I never work out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2225651981410464047==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jul 20 22:09:33 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:09:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3de809a6-1100-179f-7848-329b06df6aff@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4748831871730570072==" --===============4748831871730570072== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/20/23 14:14, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > So, I was an acquaintance of John Draper, rather than a survivor, > because I never work out. > John has a twitter account and he's apparently hit on hard times, asking for contributions so he can keep his Internet service... --Chuck --===============4748831871730570072==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jul 20 22:14:55 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:14:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3171865009735904839==" --===============3171865009735904839== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 2:15=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> [snip] > >>> Chuck's only saying that because he wasn't invited to "work out." > >> > >> Those of us who received such invites should form a club or somethin'. > > On Thu, 20 Jul 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Survivors of John Draper > > So, I was an acquaintance of John Draper, rather than a survivor, because > I never work out. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com Very well then: Survivors of John Draper and Grumpy Ol' Fred To be fair to him, he seems to have mellowed out in his later years. And I hate to imagine the abuse he suffered as a child that made him who he became. He's definitely a special individual, very talented and intellectually gifted, but most likely misunderstood as a boy, and probably didn't come from a very loving home environment. Sellam Sellam --===============3171865009735904839==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jul 20 22:15:51 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:15:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3de809a6-1100-179f-7848-329b06df6aff@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4291876921140032472==" --===============4291876921140032472== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 3:09 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > John has a twitter account and he's apparently hit on hard times, asking > for contributions so he can keep his Internet service... > > --Chuck > That's pretty much par for the course with him. Sellam --===============4291876921140032472==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jul 20 22:34:23 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:34:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8448123413379242998==" --===============8448123413379242998== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So, I was an acquaintance of John Draper, rather than a survivor, because >> I never work out. >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Thu, 20 Jul 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Very well then: > > Survivors of John Draper and Grumpy Ol' Fred That implies that there are survivors of Grumpy Ol' Fred! Have you been talking to my former students? > To be fair to him, he seems to have mellowed out in his later years. And I > hate to imagine the abuse he suffered as a child that made him who he > became. He's definitely a special individual, very talented and > intellectually gifted, but most likely misunderstood as a boy, and probably > didn't come from a very loving home environment. Well, I'm not cute enough for him not to accept a simple "no, thank you". He has always had some issues with social interactions. I'm guessing Aspergers. But, other than the tantrum at my office about thinking he smelled a cigarette, he's always treated me OK. Sorry for those who weren't. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8448123413379242998==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jul 21 00:00:08 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 16:59:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8178280681512924359==" --===============8178280681512924359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 3:34=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > So, I was an acquaintance of John Draper, rather than a survivor, because > >> I never work out. > >> -- > >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > On Thu, 20 Jul 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Very well then: > > > > Survivors of John Draper and Grumpy Ol' Fred > > That implies that there are survivors of Grumpy Ol' Fred! > Have you been talking to my former students? > Survivors of John Draper, and Grumpy Ol' Fred Not sure if that is a bona fide example of the Oxford Comma at work, but nonetheless I hope it clarifies the matter. > > To be fair to him, he seems to have mellowed out in his later years. > And I > > hate to imagine the abuse he suffered as a child that made him who he > > became. He's definitely a special individual, very talented and > > intellectually gifted, but most likely misunderstood as a boy, and > probably > > didn't come from a very loving home environment. > > Well, I'm not cute enough for him not to accept a simple "no, thank you". > > He has always had some issues with social interactions. I'm guessing > Aspergers. But, other than the tantrum at my office about thinking he > smelled a cigarette, he's always treated me OK. Sorry for those who > weren't. > I should make a shirt: I GOT INVITED TO "SHARE MASSAGES" WITH JOHN DRAPER BUT FORTUNATELY ALL I GOT WAS THIS T-SHIRT. Sellam --===============8178280681512924359==-- From shumaker@att.net Fri Jul 21 00:05:40 2023 From: Steven Shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 16:55:28 -0700 Message-ID: <7291376f-1844-e883-083d-6aa5d3967b35@att.net> In-Reply-To: <0LgJO6-1parhK2Rca-00neuZ@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6378054380824432957==" --===============6378054380824432957== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable oops -=C2=A0 it does help=C2=A0 google when you give it the correct spelling.= .=C2=A0 duh Steve On 7/19/2023 8:07 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Well there is his obituary..... plus news articles.... > -------- Original message --------From: steve shumaker via cctalk Date: 7/19/23 7:56 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.= org Cc: steve shumaker Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mi= tnick what's your source for this?On 7/19/23 7:35 PM, Murray McCullough via c= ctalk wrote:> Maybe this note is off topic but I don't think so: The death of= Kevin> Mitnick. His book "Ghost in the Wire" is a classic. Too bad he was a>= criminal!>> Murray =F0=9F=99=82 --===============6378054380824432957==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Fri Jul 21 00:09:57 2023 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Can't access Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:09:41 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1088715481098291471==" --===============1088715481098291471== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear sir; I can't access your site. Not sure why! It mat be due to the email address I employ. Many thanks, Murray 🙂 --===============1088715481098291471==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jul 21 00:53:19 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:53:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3621242769658670998==" --===============3621242769658670998== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> So, I was an acquaintance of John Draper, rather than a survivor, because >>>> I never work out. >>>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >> >> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> Very well then: >>> Survivors of John Draper and Grumpy Ol' Fred >> That implies that there are survivors of Grumpy Ol' Fred! >> Have you been talking to my former students? On Thu, 20 Jul 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Survivors of John Draper, and Grumpy Ol' Fred > > Not sure if that is a bona fide example of the Oxford Comma at work, but > nonetheless I hope it clarifies the matter. It's not exactly "the Oxford comma",but it is a little clearer. I am reasonably sure that there are no survivors of Grumpy Ol' Fred Since there are a few people here with computer programming backgrounds, . . = .=20 (Survivors of John Draper) and Grumpy Ol' Fred works less ambiguously --===============3621242769658670998==-- From brianb1224@aol.com Fri Jul 21 17:30:42 2023 From: brianb1224 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:30:28 -0500 Message-ID: <739212482.65078.1689960636841@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <7291376f-1844-e883-083d-6aa5d3967b35@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5078936563371429959==" --===============5078936563371429959== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting person. -------- Original message --------From: Steven Shumaker via cctalk Date: 7/20/23 7:05 PM (GMT-06:00) To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.o= rg Cc: Steven Shumaker Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mi= tnick oops -=C2=A0 it does help=C2=A0 google when you give it the correct spe= lling..=C2=A0 duhSteveOn 7/19/2023 8:07 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:> Well there= is his obituary..... plus news articles....> -------- Original message -----= ---From: steve shumaker via cctalk Date: 7/19/23=C2= =A0 7:56 PM=C2=A0 (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: steve shumaker = Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick what's your sourc= e for this?On 7/19/23 7:35 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:> Maybe thi= s note is off topic but I don't think so: The death of Kevin> Mitnick. His bo= ok "Ghost in the Wire" is a classic. Too bad he was a> criminal!>> Murray =F0= =9F=99=82 --===============5078936563371429959==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Fri Jul 21 19:40:00 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Draper, wsa: Re: Re: Death of Mitnick Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:39:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <40232431-3720-359f-e39f-3b141257ba22@mainecoon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6105587836679679386==" --===============6105587836679679386== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 10:42 AM Christian Kennedy via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 7/20/23 04:49, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > [snip] > > Chuck's only saying that because he wasn't invited to "work out." > > Those of us who received such invites should form a club or somethin'. > Wow. I guess I never researched him lately and hadn't heard any of those allegations. I'm still curious about the potential new documentary about him and the phreaking scene though. I think it's a Kickstarter or something. I guess one would need to check if the money is going to a production company vs internet bills. --===============6105587836679679386==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Jul 21 21:34:15 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Can't access Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 22:33:56 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4689998905642973918==" --===============4689998905642973918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 at 01:10, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > Dear sir; > > I can't access your site. Not sure why! It mat be due to the email > address I employ. Wrong email address, Murray? I am sure none of us have any idea what you're talking about... -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4689998905642973918==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jul 21 21:41:28 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Can't access Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:41:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8568153188062606452==" --===============8568153188062606452== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 at 01:10, Murray McCullough via cctalk > wrote: >> Dear sir; >> I can't access your site. Not sure why! It mat be due to the email >> address I employ. On Fri, 21 Jul 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Wrong email address, Murray? > I am sure none of us have any idea what you're talking about... When complaining about inability to access a site, always include the exact and complete URL of the site that you can't access. In some cases, it is a typo in the URL, such as including the period that completed the sentence that the URL was in. In other cases, it might be that the entire site has been moved, and you need the current/updated URL. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8568153188062606452==-- From bear@typewritten.org Sat Jul 22 00:58:05 2023 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] xerox viewboard Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 17:56:44 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3630428636641225384==" --===============3630428636641225384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking for information on how to set the jumpers/dip switches on the Xerox V= iewBoard (AWPI Bounty) and ViewBoard II. Apparently there=E2=80=99s one or more hardware installation manuals for thes= e boards, which were also sold as part of the =E2=80=9CNetwork Services for P= C=E2=80=9D product, so the hardware installation manual for that would presum= ably also contain this information. Bitsavers has the Network Services for PC= software installation manual, which mentions the separate hardware manual(s)= , but I haven=E2=80=99t yet been able to locate any copies of anything that d= escribes the jumpers/switches. ok bear. --===============3630428636641225384==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Sat Jul 22 01:24:48 2023 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: xerox viewboard Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 18:13:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4995214233255733726==" --===============4995214233255733726== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You might also try contacting someone at Digibarn. Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:58 PM, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFLooking for information on how to set the jumpers/dip switches on = the Xerox ViewBoard (AWPI Bounty) and ViewBoard II. >=20 > Apparently there=E2=80=99s one or more hardware installation manuals for th= ese boards, which were also sold as part of the =E2=80=9CNetwork Services for= PC=E2=80=9D product, so the hardware installation manual for that would pres= umably also contain this information. Bitsavers has the Network Services for = PC software installation manual, which mentions the separate hardware manual(= s), but I haven=E2=80=99t yet been able to locate any copies of anything that= describes the jumpers/switches. >=20 >=20 > ok > bear. >=20 >=20 --===============4995214233255733726==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Jul 22 01:53:39 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: xerox viewboard Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 18:53:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2105596998126138030==" --===============2105596998126138030== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bruce transferred everything in DigiBarn to System Source Computer Museum in Maryland. Sellam On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 6:24 PM Don R via cctalk wrote: > You might also try contacting someone at Digibarn. > > Don Resor > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:58 PM, r.stricklin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Looking for information on how to set the jumpers/dip switches on the > Xerox ViewBoard (AWPI Bounty) and ViewBoard II. > > > > Apparently there’s one or more hardware installation manuals for these > boards, which were also sold as part of the “Network Services for PC” > product, so the hardware installation manual for that would presumably also > contain this information. Bitsavers has the Network Services for PC > software installation manual, which mentions the separate hardware > manual(s), but I haven’t yet been able to locate any copies of anything > that describes the jumpers/switches. > > > > > > ok > > bear. > > > > > > --===============2105596998126138030==-- From bear@typewritten.org Sat Jul 22 04:44:06 2023 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: xerox viewboard Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 21:42:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3A25B9D0-187A-4F79-9BAF-5E694660522A@typewritten.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5983509808103760851==" --===============5983509808103760851== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, and I reached out to System Source. They responded, but I failed to achi= eve any conclusive result. ok bear. > On Jul 21, 2023, at 6:53 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Bruce transferred everything in DigiBarn to System Source Computer Museum > in Maryland. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 6:24=E2=80=AFPM Don R via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> You might also try contacting someone at Digibarn. >>=20 >> Don Resor >>=20 >> Sent from someone's iPhone >>=20 >>> On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:58 PM, r.stricklin via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFLooking for information on how to set the jumpers/dip switches o= n the >> Xerox ViewBoard (AWPI Bounty) and ViewBoard II. >>>=20 >>> Apparently there=E2=80=99s one or more hardware installation manuals for = these >> boards, which were also sold as part of the =E2=80=9CNetwork Services for = PC=E2=80=9D >> product, so the hardware installation manual for that would presumably also >> contain this information. Bitsavers has the Network Services for PC >> software installation manual, which mentions the separate hardware >> manual(s), but I haven=E2=80=99t yet been able to locate any copies of any= thing >> that describes the jumpers/switches. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ok >>> bear. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --===============5983509808103760851==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Jul 22 22:51:43 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: xerox viewboard Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2023 18:51:35 -0400 Message-ID: <3dcbf08e-543c-1bc3-83cb-e18a73beae73@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <3A25B9D0-187A-4F79-9BAF-5E694660522A@typewritten.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7307324073370592399==" --===============7307324073370592399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It all seems to be there. Bruce's 12, 8, big Cray things are nicely=20 displayed. CZ On 7/22/2023 12:42 AM, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > Yes, and I reached out to System Source. They responded, but I failed to ac= hieve any conclusive result. > > ok > bear. > >> On Jul 21, 2023, at 6:53 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> >> Bruce transferred everything in DigiBarn to System Source Computer Museum >> in Maryland. >> >> Sellam >> >> On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 6:24=E2=80=AFPM Don R via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> You might also try contacting someone at Digibarn. >>> >>> Don Resor >>> >>> Sent from someone's iPhone >>> >>>> On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:58 PM, r.stricklin via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> =EF=BB=BFLooking for information on how to set the jumpers/dip switches = on the >>> Xerox ViewBoard (AWPI Bounty) and ViewBoard II. >>>> Apparently there=E2=80=99s one or more hardware installation manuals for= these >>> boards, which were also sold as part of the =E2=80=9CNetwork Services for= PC=E2=80=9D >>> product, so the hardware installation manual for that would presumably al= so >>> contain this information. Bitsavers has the Network Services for PC >>> software installation manual, which mentions the separate hardware >>> manual(s), but I haven=E2=80=99t yet been able to locate any copies of an= ything >>> that describes the jumpers/switches. >>>> >>>> ok >>>> bear. >>>> >>>> >>> --===============7307324073370592399==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sun Jul 23 13:52:47 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IMSAI SIO 8080 Comm Program? Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 09:52:27 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8144354967295071215==" --===============8144354967295071215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for a basic or commercial IMSAI SIO 8080 Comm Program that uses SIO serial connector 2 for modem communications. Something I can start from a ROM monitor running from the console running through serial connector 1. My system is using the original 8080, I want to avoid the cp/m z80 route. Bill --===============8144354967295071215==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Sun Jul 23 19:00:24 2023 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI SIO 8080 Comm Program? Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 19:00:16 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1136474055432683492==" --===============1136474055432683492== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill I don't have one handy but you need to state how your SIO card is configured= . The one I have, has a number of jumper options. I think we'd need to know t= he options for which bits are used for which. Dwight ________________________________ From: Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2023 6:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: [cctalk] IMSAI SIO 8080 Comm Program? I am looking for a basic or commercial IMSAI SIO 8080 Comm Program that uses SIO serial connector 2 for modem communications. Something I can start from a ROM monitor running from the console running through serial connector 1. My system is using the original 8080, I want to avoid the cp/m z80 route. Bill --===============1136474055432683492==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 24 07:11:57 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] ICL / Digico Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 09:11:45 +0200 Message-ID: <5bab35a-ede7-9f7a-f6ac-50846b20d7d5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5693952645037299215==" --===============5693952645037299215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, I was trying to contact "Pete" at vintage-icl-computers.com several times during the last years. Obiously, the site and/or the person is dead, no reaction whatever. I'm hoping that someone on this list might be able to help me: I still have a Digico Micro 16V computer that, one day, I'd like to restore. On the ICL site above I can see that they have (had?) the service manual/schematics for the system, and I would really love to get a scan (or at least high resolution photos) of these. Does anyone here maybe have them or can provide me with some pointers? Oh BTW, software (e.g. papertape images) would be great, too :-) Christian --===============5693952645037299215==-- From jon@jonworld.com Mon Jul 24 07:15:08 2023 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ICL / Digico Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 08:14:51 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5bab35a-ede7-9f7a-f6ac-50846b20d7d5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4842119880528861801==" --===============4842119880528861801== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We have a lot of ICL expertise at TNMOC. I can ask there. I know we have a lot of stuff. On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 8:11 AM Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > So, I was trying to contact "Pete" at vintage-icl-computers.com several > times during the last years. Obiously, the site and/or the person is dead, > no reaction whatever. > I'm hoping that someone on this list might be able to help me: > I still have a Digico Micro 16V computer that, one day, I'd like to > restore. On the ICL site above I can see that they have (had?) the service > manual/schematics for the system, and I would really love to get a scan > (or at least high resolution photos) of these. Does anyone here maybe have > them or can provide me with some pointers? Oh BTW, software (e.g. > papertape images) would be great, too :-) > > Christian -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============4842119880528861801==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon Jul 24 07:16:13 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ICL / Digico Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 07:16:00 +0000 Message-ID: <147792139.2338860.1690182960650@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5bab35a-ede7-9f7a-f6ac-50846b20d7d5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5669028309270147293==" --===============5669028309270147293== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe checkout internet archive various date versions of thier site???Ed#=C2= =A0 =C2=A0SMECC Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 12:12 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: So, I was trying to contact "Pete" at vintage-icl-compute= rs.com several=20 times during the last years. Obiously, the site and/or the person is dead,=20 no reaction whatever. I'm hoping that someone on this list might be able to help me: I still have a Digico Micro 16V computer that, one day, I'd like to=20 restore. On the ICL site above I can see that they have (had?) the service=20 manual/schematics for the system, and I would really love to get a scan=20 (or at least high resolution photos) of these. Does anyone here maybe have=20 them or can provide me with some pointers? Oh BTW, software (e.g.=20 papertape images) would be great, too :-) Christian =20 --===============5669028309270147293==-- From rodsmallwood52@btinternet.com Mon Jul 24 07:20:22 2023 From: Rod Smallwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ICL / Digico Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 08:20:16 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5bab35a-ede7-9f7a-f6ac-50846b20d7d5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0871257813231662856==" --===============0871257813231662856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi     I worked with Digico systems in about 1974     I did some reseach a while back and did find some info.     I'll see what I have     Rod Smallwood On 24/07/2023 08:11, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > So, I was trying to contact "Pete" at vintage-icl-computers.com > several times during the last years. Obiously, the site and/or the > person is dead, no reaction whatever. > I'm hoping that someone on this list might be able to help me: > I still have a Digico Micro 16V computer that, one day, I'd like to > restore. On the ICL site above I can see that they have (had?) the > service manual/schematics for the system, and I would really love to > get a scan (or at least high resolution photos) of these. Does anyone > here maybe have them or can provide me with some pointers? Oh BTW, > software (e.g. papertape images) would be great, too :-) > > Christian --===============0871257813231662856==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Mon Jul 24 11:55:34 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ICL / Digico Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 07:55:11 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <147792139.2338860.1690182960650@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2431435711479003801==" --===============2431435711479003801== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks ED. Some quite amazing pictures. On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 3:16=E2=80=AFAM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Maybe checkout internet archive various date versions of thier site???Ed# > SMECC > > Sent from AOL on Android > > On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 12:12 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk< > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: So, I was trying to contact "Pete" at > vintage-icl-computers.com several > times during the last years. Obiously, the site and/or the person is dead, > no reaction whatever. > I'm hoping that someone on this list might be able to help me: > I still have a Digico Micro 16V computer that, one day, I'd like to > restore. On the ICL site above I can see that they have (had?) the service > manual/schematics for the system, and I would really love to get a scan > (or at least high resolution photos) of these. Does anyone here maybe have > them or can provide me with some pointers? Oh BTW, software (e.g. > papertape images) would be great, too :-) > > Christian > > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss --===============2431435711479003801==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon Jul 24 17:11:48 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ICL / Digico Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 17:11:32 +0000 Message-ID: <1277077289.2471562.1690218692876@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4534793326090467101==" --===============4534793326090467101== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I urge folks to contribute $$=C2=A0 to internet archive... The archive and wa= y back machine is a great asset.Ed#=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SMECC Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 4:55 AM, KenUnix wrote: = Thanks ED. Some quite amazing pictures. On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 3:16=E2=80=AFAM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: Maybe checkout internet archive various date versions of thier site???Ed#=C2= =A0 =C2=A0SMECC Sent from AOL on Android=20 =C2=A0 On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 12:12 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:=C2=A0 =C2=A0So, I was trying to contact "Pete" at vint= age-icl-computers.com several=20 times during the last years. Obiously, the site and/or the person is dead,=20 no reaction whatever. I'm hoping that someone on this list might be able to help me: I still have a Digico Micro 16V computer that, one day, I'd like to=20 restore. On the ICL site above I can see that they have (had?) the service=20 manual/schematics for the system, and I would really love to get a scan=20 (or at least high resolution photos) of these. Does anyone here maybe have=20 them or can provide me with some pointers? Oh BTW, software (e.g.=20 papertape images) would be great, too :-) Christian --=20 End of lineJOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss =20 --===============4534793326090467101==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jul 25 06:48:15 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ICL / Digico Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 08:47:59 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1277077289.2471562.1690218692876@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9111727277324981659==" --===============9111727277324981659== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 24 Jul 2023, ED SHARPE wrote: > On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 4:55 AM, KenUnix wrote: = > Thanks ED. Some quite amazing pictures. What pictures? Of the Digico system? What are you talking about? > On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 3:16?AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Maybe checkout internet archive various date versions of thier=20 > site???Ed#=C2=A0 =C2=A0SMECC This post did not come through the list... at least not to me. But I don't see how the IA could help me with something that was never=20 available online. Christian --===============9111727277324981659==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Jul 26 01:34:18 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM 8" disk drives - anyone need? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:33:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5139565312860101653==" --===============5139565312860101653== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a pair of IBM 8" disk drives - they are from an 1980 IBM 5120 I simply won't have the time to give them the attention they deserve for many years. They seem mechanically ok (they spin) but I don't know much more about them, or how "universal" they might be as 8" floppy disk drives. I think I do have to cut them from the transformer they are connected to (couple thick red wires), but otherwise they have all the original power harness stuff as well. Thinking just cost of shipping plus rounded to nearest $10 or $100. They are about 20lbs (together, and I would like to keep them together - there is a pin/clip that is used to latch them together, but I do think they can be separated fairly easily). Message me if any interest. If you do need/want them for another 5120 project, I can probably include some adapter cards. -Steve --===============5139565312860101653==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jul 26 01:49:47 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 8" disk drives - anyone need? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 18:49:37 -0700 Message-ID: <2e643d7c-1b36-c90c-8a79-be4c77741673@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7360265312972734136==" --===============7360265312972734136== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/25/23 18:33, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > I have a pair of IBM 8" disk drives - they are from an 1980 IBM 5120 > > I simply won't have the time to give them the attention they deserve for > many years. They seem mechanically ok (they spin) but I don't know much > more about them, or how "universal" they might be as 8" floppy disk drives. > > I think I do have to cut them from the transformer they are connected to > (couple thick red wires), but otherwise they have all the original power > harness stuff as well. > > Thinking just cost of shipping plus rounded to nearest $10 or $100. They > are about 20lbs (together, and I would like to keep them together - there > is a pin/clip that is used to latch them together, but I do think they can > be separated fairly easily). > > Message me if any interest. If you do need/want them for another 5120 > project, I can probably include some adapter cards. My recollection of the 5120 drives is that they're sui generis in terms of interface--i.e. not Shugart-type. However, I suspect that they'll be of great interest to several folks on the Vintage Computer Forum. If you'd like, I can post the availability there. --Chuck --===============7360265312972734136==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Jul 26 01:58:39 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 8" disk drives - anyone need? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:58:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2e643d7c-1b36-c90c-8a79-be4c77741673@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9193187200501501759==" --===============9193187200501501759== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ah, I'm on VCF. Actually forgot the item/trade/etc section there. But still, prefered to offer them here first. I'll wait a few days. Also I might make it to VCF MW (Chicago) in September - still not 100% sure. But possible I could just bring them with me to that (I mean if someone wanted to pick them up there, not for the free table! :D ) -Steve On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 8:49 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 7/25/23 18:33, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > I have a pair of IBM 8" disk drives - they are from an 1980 IBM 5120 > > > > I simply won't have the time to give them the attention they deserve for > > many years. They seem mechanically ok (they spin) but I don't know much > > more about them, or how "universal" they might be as 8" floppy disk > drives. > > > > I think I do have to cut them from the transformer they are connected to > > (couple thick red wires), but otherwise they have all the original power > > harness stuff as well. > > > > Thinking just cost of shipping plus rounded to nearest $10 or $100. They > > are about 20lbs (together, and I would like to keep them together - there > > is a pin/clip that is used to latch them together, but I do think they > can > > be separated fairly easily). > > > > Message me if any interest. If you do need/want them for another 5120 > > project, I can probably include some adapter cards. > > My recollection of the 5120 drives is that they're sui generis in terms > of interface--i.e. not Shugart-type. However, I suspect that they'll be > of great interest to several folks on the Vintage Computer Forum. > > If you'd like, I can post the availability there. > > --Chuck > > > --===============9193187200501501759==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Jul 26 04:24:07 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] SCAMP at 50 (IBM 5100) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:23:51 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3953179145340696763==" --===============3953179145340696763== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For anyone interested, I'm placing my SCAMP notes here! Had an incredibly great opportunity to learn more about it. https://voidstar.blog/scamp-a-review-50-years-later/ --===============3953179145340696763==-- From cctalk@snarc.net Wed Jul 26 05:40:58 2023 From: Evan Koblentz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] F/S: Lego robot kits for IBM PC Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:50:35 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3561119347485879308==" --===============3561119347485879308== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Around the middle of the 1980s, Lego made a robotics system for 8-bit computers, including the Apple II, BBC Micro, Commodore 64, and IBM PC. The system includes a hardware interface (set #9750, "Interface A"), a card or cable (differs for each computer; the PC-ISA card is set #9771), and various electronic Lego bits (sensors, lights, motors, etc., the main set of which is #9700.) I recently acquired several of the PC-ISA version. I am selling these as a bundle: 1x-9750, 1x-9771, 2x-9700. The price is $400 + s/h from New Jersey. Full details about the sets are on my website, www.brickhacks.com. The site isn't finished and some links will not work, but the meat of it is all there. I'll also be posting how-to videos on YouTube (@TechnicallyEvan) but I can't promise when that will happen -- I'm very busy in real life. All of the manuals are on the Internet Archive, under the "vintage Lego robotics" collection. Interested buyers should send me a private message to evan(a)snarc.net. --===============3561119347485879308==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jul 26 14:30:18 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 10:30:10 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5371209820473715402==" --===============5371209820473715402== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that 3.2 is out there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad disk in the distro) however are these disks out there now? Pro/Venix 1.0 on floppies POS V2.0a on floppies POS version 1.5 (with test diskette, maintenance application, a thing called Pro/Pre labelled "Diskette system", system overview and instruction disks) POS V1.7 (I have that here somewhere) Pro/Basic Version 1.0 and 1.2 SPSS/X For Professional (this is a really interesting one, anyone heard of this?) If so let me know and I won't copy them. If not I'll go over to the mighty Deskpro/XE and start sucking the data off for archives.... Thanks! Chris (Hoping to find old drivers or scaffolding or something that will give me a hint into how DEC ported POS) --===============5371209820473715402==-- From maxwell@buffalo.edu Wed Jul 26 16:39:49 2023 From: John Maxwell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:13:21 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4639932598198081567==" --===============4639932598198081567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris, I have images of Pro/Venix 1.0 and 2.0 (for the 380) with the serial gener= ator. I'll have the _check_ though. Best, -John Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that 3.2 is ou= t there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad disk in the dist= ro) however are these disks out there now? Pro/Venix 1.0 on floppies POS V2.0a on floppies POS version 1.5 (with test diskette, maintenance application, a thing called = Pro/Pre labelled "Diskette system", system overview and instruction disks) POS V1.7 (I have that here somewhere) Pro/Basic Version 1.0 and 1.2 SPSS/X For Professional (this is a really interesting one, anyone heard of th= is?) If so let me know and I won't copy them. If not I'll go over to the mighty De= skpro/XE and start sucking the data off for archives.... Thanks! Chris (Hoping to find old drivers or scaffolding or something that will give me a h= int into how DEC ported POS) --===============4639932598198081567==-- From mark@matlockfamily.com Wed Jul 26 17:51:29 2023 From: Mark Matlock To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 12:51:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <169039080863.2847341.13306611948708356080@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7880225823154719274==" --===============7880225823154719274== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, I would be interested in getting a copy of the SSPS/X software for POS. I = have a manual for SPSS/11 and would love to try to get the software running = under RSX11M+ if possible. Thanks, Mark > On Jul 26, 2023, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: >=20 > From: Chris Zach > > Subject: [cctalk] Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there > Date: July 26, 2023 at 9:30:10 AM CDT > To: CCTalk mailing list > > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >=20 >=20 > Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that 3.2 is = out there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad disk in the di= stro) however are these disks out there now? >=20 > Pro/Venix 1.0 on floppies > POS V2.0a on floppies >=20 > POS version 1.5 (with test diskette, maintenance application, a thing calle= d Pro/Pre labelled "Diskette system", system overview and instruction disks) >=20 > POS V1.7 (I have that here somewhere) >=20 > Pro/Basic Version 1.0 and 1.2 >=20 > SPSS/X For Professional (this is a really interesting one, anyone heard of = this?) >=20 > If so let me know and I won't copy them. If not I'll go over to the mighty = Deskpro/XE and start sucking the data off for archives.... >=20 > Thanks! > Chris > (Hoping to find old drivers or scaffolding or something that will give me a= hint into how DEC ported POS) --===============7880225823154719274==-- From tosteve@yahoo.com Wed Jul 26 18:48:43 2023 From: Steven Stengel To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] May need help buying computer in Houston - =?utf-8?q?I?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99m?= in CA Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 11:48:23 -0700 Message-ID: <0CDDBCC4-E879-48F1-9A1D-02CDF2D971D1@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <0CDDBCC4-E879-48F1-9A1D-02CDF2D971D1.ref@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6834772491814986813==" --===============6834772491814986813== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to buy an old computer from a guy I don=E2=80=99t know in Houston (I= =E2=80=99ll pay shipping to CA), but it=E2=80=99s a lot of money, and I don= =E2=80=99t want to lose it - what are my options? Thanks- Steve.=20 --===============6834772491814986813==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Jul 26 18:59:26 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: May need help buying computer in Houston - =?utf-8?q?I?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99m?= in CA Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 11:59:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0CDDBCC4-E879-48F1-9A1D-02CDF2D971D1@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6573797755152599930==" --===============6573797755152599930== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 11:48=E2=80=AFAM Steven Stengel via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I want to buy an old computer from a guy I don=E2=80=99t know in Houston (I= =E2=80=99ll pay > shipping to CA), but it=E2=80=99s a lot of money, and I don=E2=80=99t want = to lose it - > what are my options? > Thanks- > Steve. > What do you mean by "lose it"? Get scammed? Delay so someone else gets it? Generally to avoid the later means increasing your risk of the former. If you know someone in Houston who will fund the purchase, get the item fast and ship it to you, that's the best option. Just remember "no good deed goes unpunished" so if they're not an expert in the item, have them skype you in to eval it before they hand over the money. --===============6573797755152599930==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Wed Jul 26 19:27:40 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: May need help buying computer in Houston - =?utf-8?q?I?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99m?= in CA Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:27:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0CDDBCC4-E879-48F1-9A1D-02CDF2D971D1@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3278159568916181425==" --===============3278159568916181425== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, What is it? Do you expect it to work when you get it? Is the seller giving you any guarantees? On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 2:48=E2=80=AFPM Steven Stengel via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I want to buy an old computer from a guy I don=E2=80=99t know in Houston (I= =E2=80=99ll pay > shipping to CA), but it=E2=80=99s a lot of money, and I don=E2=80=99t want = to lose it - > what are my options? > Thanks- > Steve. > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED --===============3278159568916181425==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jul 26 19:29:51 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: May need help buying computer in Houston - =?utf-8?q?I?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99m?= in CA Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 12:29:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0CDDBCC4-E879-48F1-9A1D-02CDF2D971D1@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3051841869675928091==" --===============3051841869675928091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 11:48=E2=80=AFAM Steven Stengel via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I want to buy an old computer from a guy I don=E2=80=99t know in Houston (I= =E2=80=99ll pay > shipping to CA), but it=E2=80=99s a lot of money, and I don=E2=80=99t want = to lose it - > what are my options? > Thanks- > Steve. I'm sure we have at least one Houstonite on the list who will see this message and be in a position to be your eyes and hands on the ground and assist you with the purchase. If not, one suggestion is to reach out to the VCF Southwest folks and see if they can lend you a hand somehow =3D=3D> https://www.vcfsw.org/ They're in Dallas, but I'm guessing they know collectors in Houston. Sellam --===============3051841869675928091==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jul 26 20:02:53 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 16:02:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4125751367552496062==" --===============4125751367552496062== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hm. I never thought of running it on RSX11M+. I think it used the Pro's=20 video for graphs and could do amazing bitmaps on the LA50, but I'll bet=20 it just uses VT125/131 codes to talk to the display as opposed to=20 accessing the Pro's bitmap registers. I'll see if I can read it in now. On 7/26/2023 1:51 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > Chris, > I would be interested in getting a copy of the SSPS/X software for POS.= I have a manual for SPSS/11 and would love to try to get the software runni= ng under RSX11M+ if possible. > > Thanks, > Mark > >> On Jul 26, 2023, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: >> >> From: Chris Zach > >> Subject: [cctalk] Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there >> Date: July 26, 2023 at 9:30:10 AM CDT >> To: CCTalk mailing list > >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> >> >> Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that 3.2 is= out there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad disk in the d= istro) however are these disks out there now? >> >> Pro/Venix 1.0 on floppies >> POS V2.0a on floppies >> >> POS version 1.5 (with test diskette, maintenance application, a thing call= ed Pro/Pre labelled "Diskette system", system overview and instruction disks) >> >> POS V1.7 (I have that here somewhere) >> >> Pro/Basic Version 1.0 and 1.2 >> >> SPSS/X For Professional (this is a really interesting one, anyone heard of= this?) >> >> If so let me know and I won't copy them. If not I'll go over to the mighty= Deskpro/XE and start sucking the data off for archives.... >> >> Thanks! >> Chris >> (Hoping to find old drivers or scaffolding or something that will give me = a hint into how DEC ported POS) --===============4125751367552496062==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jul 26 22:55:06 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 18:54:59 -0400 Message-ID: <1852fa92-5e47-47fe-0a40-61e937ead46e@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7490778162289464634==" --===============7490778162289464634== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, files are up on https://www.crystel.com/pdp/os and=20 https://www.crystel.com/pro350 MicroRSX, Ultrix11, MicroRSTS/E, and um spss On 7/26/2023 1:51 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > Chris, > I would be interested in getting a copy of the SSPS/X software for POS.= I have a manual for SPSS/11 and would love to try to get the software runni= ng under RSX11M+ if possible. > > Thanks, > Mark > >> On Jul 26, 2023, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: >> >> From: Chris Zach > >> Subject: [cctalk] Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there >> Date: July 26, 2023 at 9:30:10 AM CDT >> To: CCTalk mailing list > >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> >> >> Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that 3.2 is= out there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad disk in the d= istro) however are these disks out there now? >> >> Pro/Venix 1.0 on floppies >> POS V2.0a on floppies >> >> POS version 1.5 (with test diskette, maintenance application, a thing call= ed Pro/Pre labelled "Diskette system", system overview and instruction disks) >> >> POS V1.7 (I have that here somewhere) >> >> Pro/Basic Version 1.0 and 1.2 >> >> SPSS/X For Professional (this is a really interesting one, anyone heard of= this?) >> >> If so let me know and I won't copy them. If not I'll go over to the mighty= Deskpro/XE and start sucking the data off for archives.... >> >> Thanks! >> Chris >> (Hoping to find old drivers or scaffolding or something that will give me = a hint into how DEC ported POS) --===============7490778162289464634==-- From drb@msu.edu Thu Jul 27 00:29:51 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 20:29:29 -0400 Message-ID: <20230727002929.EF33A3760FA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <1852fa92-5e47-47fe-0a40-61e937ead46e@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3844440314200271083==" --===============3844440314200271083== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that > 3.2 is out there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad > disk in the distro) however are these disks out there now? I appear to have diskette sets including Pro Hard Disk 3.0, a 3.1 update set, DECnet Pro, COMMTK, F77, Pascal, Word-11 v3.0 for Pro, what looks like a few class software packages in engineering - physics - chemistry, maybe others. I haven't read these, so I don't know for sure what's really there. Is this stuff already in captivity, or should I add it to the list of stuff to read? Dex --===============3844440314200271083==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 27 00:43:08 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 20:43:01 -0400 Message-ID: <1C295457-13AE-4982-960A-8CE5F9629C7A@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20230727002929.EF33A3760FA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3523106725439947129==" --===============3523106725439947129== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 26, 2023, at 8:29 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that >> 3.2 is out there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad >> disk in the distro) however are these disks out there now? >=20 > I appear to have diskette sets including Pro Hard Disk 3.0, a 3.1 update > set, DECnet Pro, COMMTK, F77, Pascal, Word-11 v3.0 for Pro, what looks > like a few class software packages in engineering - physics - chemistry, > maybe others. >=20 > I haven't read these, so I don't know for sure what's really there. >=20 > Is this stuff already in captivity, or should I add it to the list of > stuff to read? I don't see it on Bitsavers, not sure where else to look, so probably worth r= eading. I remember people asking if DECnet/Pro was available, that seems to = be hard to find. Pascal and F77 also don't sound like things I've seen menti= oned before. And what is COMMTK? What is "Word-11"? Is that WPS-Plus for Pro? Or something non-DEC? paul --===============3523106725439947129==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 27 00:44:08 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 20:43:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1852fa92-5e47-47fe-0a40-61e937ead46e@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1894462747887148804==" --===============1894462747887148804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 26, 2023, at 6:54 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Ok, files are up on https://www.crystel.com/pdp/os and https://www.crystel.= com/pro350 >=20 > MicroRSX, Ultrix11, MicroRSTS/E, and um spss Great stuff -- but could you fix the protections? I see 121 files listed, b= ut only 30 are accessible. The file names are not very clear -- what versions are these? paul --===============1894462747887148804==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 27 01:14:18 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 21:14:12 -0400 Message-ID: <8dd90a02-44cc-882e-7a43-e3967836cdb9@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9165814381256021985==" --===============9165814381256021985== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fixed. I think it's Ultrix 11, MicroRSTS/E 2.1 and MicroRSX 2.1 Chris On 7/26/2023 8:43 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jul 26, 2023, at 6:54 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Ok, files are up on https://www.crystel.com/pdp/os and https://www.crystel= .com/pro350 >> >> MicroRSX, Ultrix11, MicroRSTS/E, and um spss > Great stuff -- but could you fix the protections? I see 121 files listed,= but only 30 are accessible. > > The file names are not very clear -- what versions are these? > > paul > --===============9165814381256021985==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Thu Jul 27 01:26:09 2023 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCAMP at 50 (IBM 5100) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 18:18:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3a9a479a-cc8b-6155-9cf5-a6dc5a770efd@snowmoose.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0075185485073115974==" --===============0075185485073115974== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wait! There is a SCAMP other than Burroughs' Single Chip A-Series Mainframe Processor. alan On 7/25/23 9:23 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > For anyone interested, I'm placing my SCAMP notes here! > Had an incredibly great opportunity to learn more about it. > > https://voidstar.blog/scamp-a-review-50-years-later/ --===============0075185485073115974==-- From drb@msu.edu Thu Jul 27 01:59:56 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCAMP at 50 (IBM 5100) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 21:59:52 -0400 Message-ID: <20230727015952.3C8FC3769F5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <3a9a479a-cc8b-6155-9cf5-a6dc5a770efd@snowmoose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7353255912020130865==" --===============7353255912020130865== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Wait! There is a SCAMP other than Burroughs' Single Chip A-Series=20 > Mainframe Processor. And then there's the SC/MP. De --===============7353255912020130865==-- From mattislind@gmail.com Thu Jul 27 06:54:27 2023 From: Mattis Lind To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:54:11 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1852fa92-5e47-47fe-0a40-61e937ead46e@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2963747419464263623==" --===============2963747419464263623== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, Den tors 27 juli 2023 kl 00:55 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > Ok, files are up on https://www.crystel.com/pdp/os and > https://www.crystel.com/pro350 Would you mind adding some kind of metadata to the files, please! A simple photo of the diskette with the same filename-base as the image would help a lot to understand what you have actually dumped. The other solution is to write something into the metadata of the IMD file. I checked the ULTRIX1.IMD file and there was no metadata in it. One of the RSTS disks had metadata which is great! I know from my own experience that writing the metadata into the IMD program for each dumped disk so therefore a photo/scan of each disk would equally good (or in some ways even better). All in all it is hard to discern what version it is and which of all the install disks this really is. When you already did such a great effort to dump all these disks I would kindly ask you to just take a photo of each of them so other people could use them easily. Thanks, Mattis Lind > > > MicroRSX, Ultrix11, MicroRSTS/E, and um spss > > On 7/26/2023 1:51 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > > Chris, > > I would be interested in getting a copy of the SSPS/X software for > POS. I have a manual for SPSS/11 and would love to try to get the software > running under RSX11M+ if possible. > > > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > >> On Jul 26, 2023, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: > >> > >> From: Chris Zach >> > >> Subject: [cctalk] Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there > >> Date: July 26, 2023 at 9:30:10 AM CDT > >> To: CCTalk mailing list cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>> > >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > >> > >> > >> Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that 3.2 > is out there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad disk in > the distro) however are these disks out there now? > >> > >> Pro/Venix 1.0 on floppies > >> POS V2.0a on floppies > >> > >> POS version 1.5 (with test diskette, maintenance application, a thing > called Pro/Pre labelled "Diskette system", system overview and instruction > disks) > >> > >> POS V1.7 (I have that here somewhere) > >> > >> Pro/Basic Version 1.0 and 1.2 > >> > >> SPSS/X For Professional (this is a really interesting one, anyone heard > of this?) > >> > >> If so let me know and I won't copy them. If not I'll go over to the > mighty Deskpro/XE and start sucking the data off for archives.... > >> > >> Thanks! > >> Chris > >> (Hoping to find old drivers or scaffolding or something that will give > me a hint into how DEC ported POS) > --===============2963747419464263623==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 27 15:09:05 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 11:08:57 -0400 Message-ID: <6ee24197-da96-45d4-cbe8-93fa8d2c6513@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6170232467263029111==" --===============6170232467263029111== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yah. One problem with me is that I have the detail skills of a gopher.=20 So I'm not the best person to try and add proper metadata to files. That said, they are a bit minimally descriptive due to DOS 8.3 naming=20 conventions. I'll take some pictures of the floppies and add a text=20 document explaining roughly what is what. More important, can someone actually try doing installs on SIMH to see=20 if all the files are good? I want to make sure I didn't misname a disk=20 or make an error like that. Thanks and more to come! Chris On 7/27/2023 2:54 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Chris, > > Den tors 27 juli 2023 kl 00:55 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > >> Ok, files are up on https://www.crystel.com/pdp/os and >> https://www.crystel.com/pro350 > > Would you mind adding some kind of metadata to the files, please! A simple > photo of the diskette with the same filename-base as the image would help a > lot to understand what you have actually dumped. The other solution is to > write something into the metadata of the IMD file. I checked the > ULTRIX1.IMD file and there was no metadata in it. One of the RSTS disks had > metadata which is great! I know from my own experience that writing the > metadata into the IMD program for each dumped disk so therefore a > photo/scan of each disk would equally good (or in some ways even better). > > All in all it is hard to discern what version it is and which of all the > install disks this really is. When you already did such a great effort to > dump all these disks I would kindly ask you to just take a photo of each of > them so other people could use them easily. > > Thanks, > > Mattis Lind > > > > >> >> MicroRSX, Ultrix11, MicroRSTS/E, and um spss >> >> On 7/26/2023 1:51 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: >>> Chris, >>> I would be interested in getting a copy of the SSPS/X software for >> POS. I have a manual for SPSS/11 and would love to try to get the software >> running under RSX11M+ if possible. >>> Thanks, >>> Mark >>> >>>> On Jul 26, 2023, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Chris Zach >>> >>>> Subject: [cctalk] Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there >>>> Date: July 26, 2023 at 9:30:10 AM CDT >>>> To: CCTalk mailing list > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>> >>>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > >>>> >>>> Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that 3.2 >> is out there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad disk in >> the distro) however are these disks out there now? >>>> Pro/Venix 1.0 on floppies >>>> POS V2.0a on floppies >>>> >>>> POS version 1.5 (with test diskette, maintenance application, a thing >> called Pro/Pre labelled "Diskette system", system overview and instruction >> disks) >>>> POS V1.7 (I have that here somewhere) >>>> >>>> Pro/Basic Version 1.0 and 1.2 >>>> >>>> SPSS/X For Professional (this is a really interesting one, anyone heard >> of this?) >>>> If so let me know and I won't copy them. If not I'll go over to the >> mighty Deskpro/XE and start sucking the data off for archives.... >>>> Thanks! >>>> Chris >>>> (Hoping to find old drivers or scaffolding or something that will give >> me a hint into how DEC ported POS) >> --===============6170232467263029111==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 27 15:12:18 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 11:12:04 -0400 Message-ID: <85F823A9-CE5B-41B4-AEFE-C83FDD7085B3@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6ee24197-da96-45d4-cbe8-93fa8d2c6513@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3202135136426589258==" --===============3202135136426589258== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 27, 2023, at 11:08 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Yah. One problem with me is that I have the detail skills of a gopher. So I= 'm not the best person to try and add proper metadata to files. >=20 > That said, they are a bit minimally descriptive due to DOS 8.3 naming conve= ntions. I'll take some pictures of the floppies and add a text document expla= ining roughly what is what. >=20 > More important, can someone actually try doing installs on SIMH to see if a= ll the files are good? I want to make sure I didn't misname a disk or make an= error like that. I'll try out the micro-RSTS kit. One minor nuisance is that the images are i= n physical sector order, so they have to be de-interleaved for SIMH since it = uses logical order. No big deal, but worth pointing out. paul --===============3202135136426589258==-- From mattislind@gmail.com Thu Jul 27 15:28:55 2023 From: Mattis Lind To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 17:28:38 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <85F823A9-CE5B-41B4-AEFE-C83FDD7085B3@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9219246323256272124==" --===============9219246323256272124== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Den tors 27 juli 2023 kl 17:12 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > > > > On Jul 27, 2023, at 11:08 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Yah. One problem with me is that I have the detail skills of a gopher. > So I'm not the best person to try and add proper metadata to files. > > > > That said, they are a bit minimally descriptive due to DOS 8.3 naming > conventions. I'll take some pictures of the floppies and add a text > document explaining roughly what is what. > > > > More important, can someone actually try doing installs on SIMH to see > if all the files are good? I want to make sure I didn't misname a disk or > make an error like that. > > I'll try out the micro-RSTS kit. One minor nuisance is that the images > are in physical sector order, so they have to be de-interleaved for SIMH > since it uses logical order. No big deal, but worth pointing out. > Perhaps it would be a good idea to upload de-interleaved images along with the .IMD, .DSK and a quick document that explains the situation. Otherwise we will have this coming up every now and then and people will scratch their heads until Paul explains the details. I hope all this will be shipped off to bitsavers sooner or later, right? /Mattis > > paul > > > --===============9219246323256272124==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 27 15:46:28 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Cool program found for Pro/350 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 11:46:22 -0400 Message-ID: <8cb188a2-b74b-4edc-d656-b282ddb7c1c7@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4659594390238590472==" --===============4659594390238590472== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over the weekend I picked up a Pro/350 from the System Source swap. The good news is I traded something of similar size for it, and more importantly I didn't bring anything else home :-) Anyway, it's a pretty basic system with 10mb ST412 drive, 128k memory on board, 256kb memory expansion, disk controller, floppy controller and RX50 (with the usual loose pad, glued back in), and a video card WITHOUT the extended bitmap option. Brought it home, pulled everything, checked the power supply (good), got the drive spinning, and since drives like this tend to be precious I sucked the data off it using a Gesswin emulator (best money I have spent). Sucked the data off with no errors, thus everything is preserved for eternity. I'll take a look at the drive and see about using a bit of watch oil on the shaft to lubricate the bearings and put this disk back into a "usable" category. Even better: Fired up and compiled xhomer on my Raspberry Pi CM3+, loaded the image, and sure enough: There is a POS 2.0 install on the disk, with a really neat app called "Prostar/300" Seems to be an office tool for real estate office, specifically farm management, investment, and amortization. Even better it looks like all the data was stored on Floppies (now long gone) so no PII issues. And there is a word processor built into the app along with the normal PROSE editor. I'll tool around with it for a bit, then put the disk image up on crystel.com. An interesting application, can be easily transferred to a real disk using a gesswin emulator or put it on xhomer. :-) Pretty nice application from 1986 vintage, I can see this being used in offices around the midwest. Chris --===============4659594390238590472==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 27 15:50:47 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 11:50:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <85F823A9-CE5B-41B4-AEFE-C83FDD7085B3@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4562733260757074262==" --===============4562733260757074262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Really? So SIMH doesn't work with the images, or it's "slow"? I prefer to keep images close to "real" as I may want to write them back=20 to physical floppies. For reference, these images do work with um....=20 the Goteks which is what I would use to load onto real equipment. Why in the name of heaven would SIMH not support proper disk formats? C On 7/27/2023 11:12 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jul 27, 2023, at 11:08 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Yah. One problem with me is that I have the detail skills of a gopher. So = I'm not the best person to try and add proper metadata to files. >> >> That said, they are a bit minimally descriptive due to DOS 8.3 naming conv= entions. I'll take some pictures of the floppies and add a text document expl= aining roughly what is what. >> >> More important, can someone actually try doing installs on SIMH to see if = all the files are good? I want to make sure I didn't misname a disk or make a= n error like that. > I'll try out the micro-RSTS kit. One minor nuisance is that the images are= in physical sector order, so they have to be de-interleaved for SIMH since i= t uses logical order. No big deal, but worth pointing out. > > paul > > --===============4562733260757074262==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 27 16:27:58 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 18:27:48 +0200 Message-ID: <23e290ca-e9ad-c1ef-54ca-16ba8c768ee5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0562648119595440565==" --===============0562648119595440565== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 26 Jul 2023, Chris Zach wrote: > Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that 3.2 is > out there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad disk in the > distro) however are these disks out there now? Anything of interest on our archive site? ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pro3xx (the stuff was already there for 13 years, but I have reimaged it and scanned the labels) > (Hoping to find old drivers or scaffolding or something that will give me a > hint into how DEC ported POS) I have a microfiche set labelled AH-CG16B-TK "P/OS I/O DRV FICHE" with 16 fiches, but no means to scan them, and no idea what they contain. Christian --===============0562648119595440565==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 27 17:36:49 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 13:36:41 -0400 Message-ID: <0EF429F4-3AD2-408A-932F-8B53B9138E45@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8172867337474809389==" --===============8172867337474809389== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 27, 2023, at 11:50 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Really? So SIMH doesn't work with the images, or it's "slow"? >=20 > I prefer to keep images close to "real" as I may want to write them back to= physical floppies. For reference, these images do work with um.... the Gotek= s which is what I would use to load onto real equipment. >=20 > Why in the name of heaven would SIMH not support proper disk formats? SIMH emulated the MSCP controllers for RX50, in which the program sees sector= s in logical order. In every SIMH emulated disk the container file contains = sectors in the order seen by the software, so RX50 container files are that w= ay just as RA80 container files or RK05 container files are. On a Pro the picture is different, there the controller presents the physical= layout and the conversion to logical order is done in software (in the devic= e driver). This is why xHomer container files are in physical order, not log= ical order.=20 It wouldn't be all that hard to add an option to the SIMH MSCP emulation to d= o logical->physical order mapping so it would understand container files in p= hysical order, but such an option doesn't currently exist. It's simple enoug= h (for example, the algorithm could be lifted directly from simtools/.../flx/= disk.c). paul --===============8172867337474809389==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jul 27 20:24:25 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 13:24:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7847301656910484709==" --===============7847301656910484709== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 27 Jul 2023, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Really? So SIMH doesn't work with the images, or it's "slow"? > I prefer to keep images close to "real" as I may want to write them back to= =20 > physical floppies. For reference, these images do work with um.... the Gote= ks=20 > which is what I would use to load onto real equipment. > Why in the name of heaven would SIMH not support proper disk formats? When transferring files, often the sequence of sectors must be rearranged=20 so that the data on the disk properly creates the information of the=20 files. However, when making IMAGES OF DISKS, what is the "proper" sequence? Should the imaging prograam re-arrange the sectors into their logical=20 order? Or should the imaging prograam maintain the physical sequence of the=20 sectors? This is not entirely a rhetorical question. (Don't you hate rhetorical questions?) If using the information from the disk, obviously you want "logical"=20 order. If using the image as data to recreate a disk, obviously you want physical=20 order. Of course, ideally, imaging programs should support both outputs, and=20 programs working from images should support both inputs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7847301656910484709==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 27 20:38:56 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 16:38:49 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6840174231986550118==" --===============6840174231986550118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 27, 2023, at 4:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 27 Jul 2023, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Really? So SIMH doesn't work with the images, or it's "slow"? >> I prefer to keep images close to "real" as I may want to write them back t= o physical floppies. For reference, these images do work with um.... the Gote= ks which is what I would use to load onto real equipment. >> Why in the name of heaven would SIMH not support proper disk formats? >=20 > When transferring files, often the sequence of sectors must be rearranged s= o that the data on the disk properly creates the information of the files. >=20 > However, when making IMAGES OF DISKS, what is the "proper" sequence? > Should the imaging prograam re-arrange the sectors into their logical order? > Or should the imaging prograam maintain the physical sequence of the sector= s? >=20 > This is not entirely a rhetorical question. > (Don't you hate rhetorical questions?) >=20 > If using the information from the disk, obviously you want "logical" order. > If using the image as data to recreate a disk, obviously you want physical = order. Agreed. The SIMH logic is that the container file addressing matches the add= ressing exposed at the interface between device and driver. In the RX50 case= , that is "logical order" because the MSCP controllers work that way. Conver= sely, in XHomer it's physical order, because the Pro RX controller works that= way. > Of course, ideally, imaging programs should support both outputs, and progr= ams working from images should support both inputs. Sure, which is why I mentioned that it would make a worth while new feature f= or SIMH. paul --===============6840174231986550118==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jul 28 07:11:15 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 09:11:01 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6209495612956923435==" --===============6209495612956923435== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 27 Jul 2023, Paul Koning wrote: > Agreed. The SIMH logic is that the container file addressing matches > the addressing exposed at the interface between device and driver. In > the RX50 case, that is "logical order" because the MSCP controllers work > that way. Conversely, in XHomer it's physical order, because the Pro RX > controller works that way. I think the bare image files should always be in physical sector order. As you state it, it's the MSCP controller that rearranges the sectors into logical order. And thus, the MSCP emulation in SIMH should exactly do that when emulating a RX50. Christian --===============6209495612956923435==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Jul 28 12:04:54 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 14:04:35 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <23e290ca-e9ad-c1ef-54ca-16ba8c768ee5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2385093036988102145==" --===============2385093036988102145== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it possible that there is a Linux version of ImageDisk? I found a signature "IMD Linux 0.19" in the P/OS images from ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pro3xx If so, could you please provide a source or link for the said software? Thanks a lot! Ulli Am Do., 27. Juli 2023 um 18:28 Uhr schrieb Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > On Wed, 26 Jul 2023, Chris Zach wrote: > > Starting to go through my boxes of POS stuff. I know of course that 3.2 > is > > out there (minus the Pro/Communications option which has a bad disk in > the > > distro) however are these disks out there now? > > Anything of interest on our archive site? > > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pro3xx > > (the stuff was already there for 13 years, but I have reimaged it and > scanned the labels) > > > (Hoping to find old drivers or scaffolding or something that will give > me a > > hint into how DEC ported POS) > > I have a microfiche set labelled AH-CG16B-TK "P/OS I/O DRV FICHE" with 16 > fiches, but no means to scan them, and no idea what they contain. > > Christian > --===============2385093036988102145==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jul 28 14:09:35 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 10:09:00 -0400 Message-ID: <0011292F-6386-4AD1-BB43-E4ED29096534@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5921664379655013302==" --===============5921664379655013302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you want to copy raw floppy image files to the device, a simple "dd" comma= nd will serve, if you first use fdparm to set /dev/fd1 to 10 sectors per trac= k. paul > On Jul 28, 2023, at 8:04 AM, Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Is it possible that there is a Linux version of ImageDisk? > I found a signature "IMD Linux 0.19" in the P/OS images from > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pro3xx > If so, could you please provide a source or link for the said software? > Thanks a lot! >=20 > Ulli --===============5921664379655013302==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Fri Jul 28 21:47:37 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 15:47:20 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0011292F-6386-4AD1-BB43-E4ED29096534@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3469228558843811688==" --===============3469228558843811688== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Paul, Doesn't .IMD format have extra headers and metadata that means you can't just dd it to the raw device? Warner On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 8:09 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > If you want to copy raw floppy image files to the device, a simple "dd" > command will serve, if you first use fdparm to set /dev/fd1 to 10 sectors > per track. > > paul > > > On Jul 28, 2023, at 8:04 AM, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Is it possible that there is a Linux version of ImageDisk? > > I found a signature "IMD Linux 0.19" in the P/OS images from > > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pro3xx > > If so, could you please provide a source or link for the said software? > > Thanks a lot! > > > > Ulli > > --===============3469228558843811688==-- From mark.tapley@swri.org Fri Jul 28 22:46:09 2023 From: "Tapley, Mark B." To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1-click exploits was Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 22:36:46 +0000 Message-ID: <905DCF80-7019-46E7-A519-8A07A8D7D4E7@swri.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8942679028174710481==" --===============8942679028174710481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TLDR: =E2=80=9Cyour computer can be infected by clicking on a single link =E2=80=A6= please click on this single link.=E2=80=9D Is this an IQ test? Did I pass? On Jul 9, 2023, at 2:51 PM, Todd Pisek via cctalk w= rote: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be aware that clicking on a malicious url can result on malware or spyware be= ing installed on your machine without any further action on your part. All br= owsers have vulnerabilities. The most famous of these was the older version o= f Pegasus by NSO back in the 2014-2016 timeframe. These so called 1-click exp= loits are well known to bad actors. It=E2=80=99s a continuous cat and mouse g= ame between exploit writers and infosec. For the interested, look at this rep= ort regarding Apple and the =E2=80=9CTrident=E2=80=9D series of exploits from= 2016. https://info.lookout.com/rs/051-ESQ-475/images/pegasus-exploits-technical-det= ails.pdf =E2=80=94-Todd P.S. Exploits have evolved considerably since Trident and now include 0-click= exploits. See Google=E2=80=99s Project Zero for instance. --===============8942679028174710481==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Jul 29 00:35:09 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 20:34:33 -0400 Message-ID: <3DDFD270-C8E1-423F-BDB1-E312A125C0DC@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7451968208728603586==" --===============7451968208728603586== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no idea, I know nothing about IMD format. Is there a spec? Is it op= en? paul > On Jul 28, 2023, at 5:47 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > Paul, >=20 > Doesn't .IMD format have extra headers and metadata that means you can't ju= st dd it to the raw device? >=20 > Warner >=20 > On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 8:09=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > If you want to copy raw floppy image files to the device, a simple "dd" com= mand will serve, if you first use fdparm to set /dev/fd1 to 10 sectors per tr= ack. >=20 > paul >=20 > > On Jul 28, 2023, at 8:04 AM, Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk > wrote: > >=20 > > Is it possible that there is a Linux version of ImageDisk? > > I found a signature "IMD Linux 0.19" in the P/OS images from > > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pro3xx > > If so, could you please provide a source or link for the said software? > > Thanks a lot! > >=20 > > Ulli >=20 --===============7451968208728603586==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Jul 29 01:19:10 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 21:19:03 -0400 Message-ID: <319bd3ed-c5ee-d609-5e99-38d9a990d538@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <3DDFD270-C8E1-423F-BDB1-E312A125C0DC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2002594891910040400==" --===============2002594891910040400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is why I put them up in .imd (ImageDisk, it works on DOS) and .img=20 (image). Oddly enough I went to install SPSS/X on xHomer and it blew the=20 emulator sky high (crashed the "Pro"). Then I put it on my real 380=20 running 3.2. It installed but when I ran it the program displayed the=20 opening page (bitmapped, worked on Xhomer) then wanted Disk 3 in drive=20 0. Well, then it wanted it write unlocked (no way on a install disk), so=20 I used Imagedisk to write a copy, popped it in and with a quick "access"=20 it started the program and now it doesn't need the disk. At a files-11 level there are no changes but I'll bet if I dumped that=20 disk and did a DD: I'd find that the program hard wrote something to=20 some sector with the serial number of my Pro. So it couldn't be=20 installed in other places. I wonder if xhomer emulated the serial number=20 register on the Pro/350, maybe not and that's what blew it up. Still, it works, and it was fun to fiddle around a bit. Really nice to=20 be honest. CZ On 7/28/2023 8:34 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I have no idea, I know nothing about IMD format. Is there a spec? Is it = open? > > paul > >> On Jul 28, 2023, at 5:47 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> Paul, >> >> Doesn't .IMD format have extra headers and metadata that means you can't j= ust dd it to the raw device? >> >> Warner >> >> On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 8:09=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> If you want to copy raw floppy image files to the device, a simple "dd" co= mmand will serve, if you first use fdparm to set /dev/fd1 to 10 sectors per t= rack. >> >> paul >> >>> On Jul 28, 2023, at 8:04 AM, Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk > wrote: >>> >>> Is it possible that there is a Linux version of ImageDisk? >>> I found a signature "IMD Linux 0.19" in the P/OS images from >>> ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pro3xx >>> If so, could you please provide a source or link for the said software? >>> Thanks a lot! >>> >>> Ulli --===============2002594891910040400==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sat Jul 29 04:31:26 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1-click exploits was Re: BEWARE: Phishing Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 23:31:14 -0500 Message-ID: <0e22a01b-9bc9-4fba-2950-7b7cfc8ed6a6@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <905DCF80-7019-46E7-A519-8A07A8D7D4E7@swri.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7812154200251259003==" --===============7812154200251259003== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/28/23 17:36, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: > TLDR: > > =E2=80=9Cyour computer can be infected by clicking on a single link =E2=80= =A6 please click on this single link.=E2=80=9D > > Is this an IQ test? > > Did I pass? > Yes.=C2=A0 A three letter company I worked for and another large company in=20 San Diego=C2=A0 would send out less obvious emails and if you clicked on=20 them, would get remedial invites to training. BTW, these are pretty simple to navigate with lynx.=C2=A0 I downloaded a=20 pretty subtle one some time ago and unpacked the payload.=C2=A0 Fun things I = didn't follow, mostly sucking in other stuff from other sites. thanks Jim > On Jul 9, 2023, at 2:51 PM, Todd Pisek via cctalk = wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > Be aware that clicking on a malicious url can result on malware or spyware = being installed on your machine without any further action on your part. All = browsers have vulnerabilities. The most famous of these was the older version= of Pegasus by NSO back in the 2014-2016 timeframe. These so called 1-click e= xploits are well known to bad actors. It=E2=80=99s a continuous cat and mouse= game between exploit writers and infosec. For the interested, look at this r= eport regarding Apple and the =E2=80=9CTrident=E2=80=9D series of exploits fr= om 2016. > > https://info.lookout.com/rs/051-ESQ-475/images/ pegasus-exploits-technical-= details.pdf > > =E2=80=94-Todd > > P.S. Exploits have evolved considerably since Trident and now include 0-cli= ck exploits. See Google=E2=80=99s Project Zero for instance. > --===============7812154200251259003==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sat Jul 29 04:35:18 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 23:35:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <319bd3ed-c5ee-d609-5e99-38d9a990d538@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6342591244014756243==" --===============6342591244014756243== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/28/23 20:19, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Well, then it wanted it write unlocked (no way on a install disk), so > I used Imagedisk to write a copy, popped it in and with a quick > "access" it started the program and now it doesn't need the disk. This sounds suspiciously like something I think was called Prolock or such.  Used screwed up disks, usually as the boot disk with a signature to enable the final bit of install.  Copywrite (I think it was) which did bit binary copying with timing on the disk could copy them.  Even had some things to align with the high track bit offset of the defect. A company I worked for bought them  but didn't study the usage manual and ended up with disks which could be copied by dos copy command, then write protected.  The genuine ones had to have the write protect removed.  The disk error from the write protect caused it to think the read of the protected part of the track was successful. thanks Jim --===============6342591244014756243==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sat Jul 29 07:38:51 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Well, SPSS for RSX is sorta up. Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 18:10:12 -0400 Message-ID: <26bbf468-f8ae-19d9-1756-aa197e21d64e@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2232127177250716387==" --===============2232127177250716387== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Copied all the files onto my Gotek, it's SO EASY to just turn a dial to select a disk! Anyway, loaded all the files, but when I try to run them it says it's missing PROF77 Common. My guess is that's the same block as F77OTS, but how does one load a common block with a different name? I forgot.... Directory DU0:[SPSS] 28-JUL-2023 18:06 ANVTSK.TSK;1        173.    C  28-JUL-2023 18:01 NPTTSK.TSK;1        189.    C  28-JUL-2023 18:02 SRVTSK.TSK;1        167.    C  28-JUL-2023 18:02 SPSTSK.TSK;2        576.    C  28-JUL-2023 17:59 TTSTSK.TSK;2        116.    C  28-JUL-2023 18:00 SPSS.INS;2          3.      C  28-JUL-2023 18:00 RPTTSK.TSK;1        190.    C  28-JUL-2023 18:02 SPSS.TSK;1          136.    C  28-JUL-2023 18:03 SCATSK.TSK;1        117.    C  28-JUL-2023 18:03 SPSS.MNU;1          7.      C  28-JUL-2023 18:03 SPSS.HLP;1          124.    C  28-JUL-2023 18:03 PARTSK.TSK;1        130.    C  28-JUL-2023 18:03 SPSS.MSG;1          18.     C  28-JUL-2023 18:04 SPRTSK.TSK;1        98.     C  28-JUL-2023 18:04 SPSS.ERR;1          69.     C  28-JUL-2023 18:04 TEST1.LST;1         21.        28-JUL-2023 18:05 GSS77.SAV;1         123.       28-JUL-2023 18:05 TEST2.LST;1         27.        28-JUL-2023 18:05 TEST3.LST;1         21.        28-JUL-2023 18:05 TEST1.CMD;1         1.         28-JUL-2023 18:05 TEST2.CMD;1         2.         28-JUL-2023 18:05 TEST3.CMD;1         6.         28-JUL-2023 18:05 Total of 2314./2325. blocks in 22. files $ run spss INS -- Common block not loaded PROF77 --===============2232127177250716387==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Sat Jul 29 15:04:26 2023 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: May need help buying computer in Houston - =?utf-8?q?I?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99m?= in CA Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 10:04:19 -0500 Message-ID: <47444610-fd65-aaea-f858-a4dc80ef9776@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <0CDDBCC4-E879-48F1-9A1D-02CDF2D971D1@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6340710976525065721==" --===============6340710976525065721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit   Errr, I'm in Houston. What did you have in mind to get done locally on this deal? == Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)comcast.com --===============6340710976525065721==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Sat Jul 29 15:08:44 2023 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 10:00:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <23e290ca-e9ad-c1ef-54ca-16ba8c768ee5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3223654848814185967==" --===============3223654848814185967== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit   Sounds like these may the long lost P/OS drivers. Contact Jörg Hoppe at RETROCMP - he's been scanning in a lot of DEC fiche of late. http://retrocmp.com/ -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============3223654848814185967==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Jul 29 16:01:53 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 12:01:47 -0400 Message-ID: <39b995b5-c3e2-2b9e-5379-a9045314722b@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1963583464780208494==" --===============1963583464780208494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Meantime a question: The pro/350 has two memory daughter cards on the board. The Pro/380 appears to have a spot on the motherboard that takes the same size card. Can one use a Pro/350 internal memory board (not CTI) on the Pro/380 motherboard? Wondering before I plug this in.... On 7/29/2023 11:00 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > > >   Sounds like these may the long lost P/OS drivers. Contact Jörg Hoppe > at RETROCMP - he's been scanning in a lot of DEC fiche of late. > http://retrocmp.com/ > > > -- > Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR > Control-G Consultants > lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============1963583464780208494==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Jul 29 16:45:55 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 12:45:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <39b995b5-c3e2-2b9e-5379-a9045314722b@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5981865100555736138==" --===============5981865100555736138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Answering my own question: Yes it does work. My Pro/380 now sees 320kw of memory instead of 256kw. Now to buy some sockets and upgrade these boards to 256kw each. One can go in the Pro/350 and the other plus the memory boards should take my Pro/380 to almost 1kw. I wonder if the CTI memory boards can be upgraded from 64k chips to 256k chips. Probably would require reprogramming the ROM as well on the board. Hm. On 7/29/2023 12:01 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Meantime a question: The pro/350 has two memory daughter cards on the > board. The Pro/380 appears to have a spot on the motherboard that > takes the same size card. Can one use a Pro/350 internal memory board > (not CTI) on the Pro/380 motherboard? > > Wondering before I plug this in.... > > On 7/29/2023 11:00 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>   Sounds like these may the long lost P/OS drivers. Contact Jörg >> Hoppe at RETROCMP - he's been scanning in a lot of DEC fiche of late. >> http://retrocmp.com/ >> >> >> -- >> Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR >> Control-G Consultants >> lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============5981865100555736138==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sat Jul 29 17:01:51 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 12:00:14 -0400 Message-ID: <77b1352c-81d6-dffa-698e-2a0616e8fdf4@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3868813507059445344==" --===============3868813507059445344== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Possible. I see that Xhomer includes a version of RT11, and when I looked at that I saw that the .MAC files for the DZ and whatever the disk is (DY?) drivers appear to be there. So it might not be impossible to write the drivers in M+ based on that. Maybe. On 7/29/2023 11:00 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > > >   Sounds like these may the long lost P/OS drivers. Contact Jörg Hoppe > at RETROCMP - he's been scanning in a lot of DEC fiche of late. > http://retrocmp.com/ > > > -- > Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR > Control-G Consultants > lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============3868813507059445344==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Jul 29 17:36:24 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 13:36:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5703328162897265364==" --===============5703328162897265364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 29, 2023, at 12:45 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Answering my own question: Yes it does work. My Pro/380 now sees 320kw of m= emory instead of 256kw. >=20 > Now to buy some sockets and upgrade these boards to 256kw each. One can go = in the Pro/350 and the other plus the memory boards should take my Pro/380 to= almost 1kw. >=20 > I wonder if the CTI memory boards can be upgraded from 64k chips to 256k ch= ips. Probably would require reprogramming the ROM as well on the board. Hm. The Pro Technical Manual (on Bitsavers) answers a bunch of these questions. = If I remember right, the 380 will accept 350 memory daugher cards but also la= rger-capacity cards (bigger chips) that are 380 only. Also, the wiring for t= he board allows for larger memories than what DEC actually built; the details= are in the CPU/Motherboard chapter of the manual. And/or in the schematics.= I've thought about building such a daughtercard, I think the best case allo= ws close to full 4 MB worth of memory. paul --===============5703328162897265364==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Jul 29 17:37:52 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 13:37:43 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <77b1352c-81d6-dffa-698e-2a0616e8fdf4@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4632487465426208897==" --===============4632487465426208897== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 29, 2023, at 12:00 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Possible. I see that Xhomer includes a version of RT11, and when I looked a= t that I saw that the .MAC files for the DZ and whatever the disk is (DY?) dr= ivers appear to be there. So it might not be impossible to write the drivers = in M+ based on that. >=20 > Maybe. When I did a RSTS port for Pro I named the drivers after the names used elsew= here, either P/OS or (more likely) RT11. DZ is the floppy, DW the hard drive. DY would be the standard RT11 name for the RX02 driver, that's an entirely di= fferent beast. paul --===============4632487465426208897==-- From bdweb@mindspring.com Sat Jul 29 18:02:54 2023 From: Bjoren Davis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 13:57:34 -0400 Message-ID: <1c43aa32-1306-728c-2cae-66d36a53e2f9@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8560749138307338519==" --===============8560749138307338519== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul, A couple of years ago I did design and build a new daughterboard with=20 modern SRAM that supports up to 2 MiB of RAM on the PC/380 and up to 512=20 KiB on the PC/350. https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/eBNkBw8x It even works. I never made a push to publish it because by the time I got to it the=20 parts (Cypress CY62167G-45ZXI SRAM and ATF1504AS-10AU100 CPLD) had=20 become unobtainable. Maybe things have changed, but right now there are only 3 of these=20 boards.=C2=A0 I have 2 and I think I sent the 3rd to you, Paul. --Bjoren On 7/29/2023 10:36 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 29, 2023, at 12:45 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Answering my own question: Yes it does work. My Pro/380 now sees 320kw of = memory instead of 256kw. >> >> Now to buy some sockets and upgrade these boards to 256kw each. One can go= in the Pro/350 and the other plus the memory boards should take my Pro/380 t= o almost 1kw. >> >> I wonder if the CTI memory boards can be upgraded from 64k chips to 256k c= hips. Probably would require reprogramming the ROM as well on the board. Hm. > The Pro Technical Manual (on Bitsavers) answers a bunch of these questions.= If I remember right, the 380 will accept 350 memory daugher cards but also = larger-capacity cards (bigger chips) that are 380 only. Also, the wiring for= the board allows for larger memories than what DEC actually built; the detai= ls are in the CPU/Motherboard chapter of the manual. And/or in the schematic= s. I've thought about building such a daughtercard, I think the best case al= lows close to full 4 MB worth of memory. > > paul > > --===============8560749138307338519==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sat Jul 29 18:05:22 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 13:58:01 -0400 Message-ID: <4c0a057a-2dc5-9595-4eb8-781f0ca2aa9d@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6386126988224928394==" --===============6386126988224928394== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-07-29 13:36, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The Pro Technical Manual (on Bitsavers) answers a bunch of these questions.= If I remember right, the 380 will accept 350 memory daugher cards but also = larger-capacity cards (bigger chips) that are 380 only. Also, the wiring for= the board allows for larger memories than what DEC actually built; the detai= ls are in the CPU/Motherboard chapter of the manual. And/or in the schematic= s. I've thought about building such a daughtercard, I think the best case al= lows close to full 4 MB worth of memory. Seems that a 3 MB module could be built, giving a 3.5 MB total? --===============6386126988224928394==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Jul 29 18:55:34 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 14:55:28 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3731884567523216531==" --===============3731884567523216531== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll have to look that pro380 technical book up, I've always referred to=20 my XT100 documents but those were pre-release for the Pro/350. Now for the real 50k question: Does the AVO socket next to it take the=20 same board format for the 8 bit color video memory? Anyone have a=20 picture of the AVO board? It's the same size and the board fits. Maybe it had more space for 256kb=20 of memory chips for video RAM? C On 7/29/2023 1:36 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jul 29, 2023, at 12:45 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Answering my own question: Yes it does work. My Pro/380 now sees 320kw of = memory instead of 256kw. >> >> Now to buy some sockets and upgrade these boards to 256kw each. One can go= in the Pro/350 and the other plus the memory boards should take my Pro/380 t= o almost 1kw. >> >> I wonder if the CTI memory boards can be upgraded from 64k chips to 256k c= hips. Probably would require reprogramming the ROM as well on the board. Hm. > The Pro Technical Manual (on Bitsavers) answers a bunch of these questions.= If I remember right, the 380 will accept 350 memory daugher cards but also = larger-capacity cards (bigger chips) that are 380 only. Also, the wiring for= the board allows for larger memories than what DEC actually built; the detai= ls are in the CPU/Motherboard chapter of the manual. And/or in the schematic= s. I've thought about building such a daughtercard, I think the best case al= lows close to full 4 MB worth of memory. > > paul > > --===============3731884567523216531==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sat Jul 29 19:44:09 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 15:36:50 -0400 Message-ID: <23913a3c-1871-14d2-8d8c-be473d80b047@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: <1c43aa32-1306-728c-2cae-66d36a53e2f9@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6222399474808436498==" --===============6222399474808436498== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-07-29 13:57, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > Paul, > > A couple of years ago I did design and build a new daughterboard with > modern SRAM that supports up to 2 MiB of RAM on the PC/380 and up to 512 > KiB on the PC/350. https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/eBNkBw8x Cool! > It even works. ;-) > I never made a push to publish it because by the time I got to it the > parts (Cypress CY62167G-45ZXI SRAM and ATF1504AS-10AU100 CPLD) had > become unobtainable. The SRAM can still be find, but the CPLD? Any chance to replace it with something newer? > Maybe things have changed, but right now there are only 3 of these > boards.  I have 2 and I think I sent the 3rd to you, Paul. Any chance you like to have a look at it again? --===============6222399474808436498==-- From bdweb@mindspring.com Sat Jul 29 23:21:14 2023 From: Bjoren Davis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 19:20:55 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <23913a3c-1871-14d2-8d8c-be473d80b047@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8538360620763790033==" --===============8538360620763790033== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/29/2023 12:36 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2023-07-29 13:57, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > >> I never made a push to publish it because by the time I got to it the >> parts (Cypress CY62167G-45ZXI SRAM and ATF1504AS-10AU100 CPLD) had >> become unobtainable. > > The SRAM can still be find, but the CPLD? > Any chance to replace it with something newer? Possibly.  This was only the 2nd PCB I ever designed, so I was very conservative and used a CPLD.  Now that the logic has been proven, I'm sure the board could be reworked using just 5V-compatible flip-flops, discrete logic, and a latch. As far as using the board as it is: I think the only other possible CPLD that would work would be the 25 ns version ATF1504ASL-25AU100.  I think that's still plenty fast enough, but it seems to be just as hard to get as the original. > >> Maybe things have changed, but right now there are only 3 of these >> boards.  I have 2 and I think I sent the 3rd to you, Paul. > > Any chance you like to have a look at it again? > Sure, I guess.  As I mentioned I think the best thing would be to rework it with discrete logic so as to really reduce the susceptibility to future shortages.  Even if it increases BOM and assembly costs. The problem with reworking the board with a different CPLD is that it needs to be a 5V-compatible CPLD, and it needs to be able to buffer half of the address lines (9 in and 20 out).  That means it needs a high pin count.  These two criteria quickly narrow the possibilities down to almost nothing.  Add to that the wanting a reasonable price and availability for a few years and it really does go to nothing.. Digikey claims that the ATF1504AS-10AU100 is still an Active product and expects new product in April, 2024.  Maybe it just makes sense to wait? --===============8538360620763790033==-- From steven@malikoff.com Sun Jul 30 03:14:35 2023 From: "steven@malikoff.com steven@malikoff.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] SCAMP at 61 (IBM Scientific Computer And Modular Processor) was Re: SCAMP at 50 (IBM 5100) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 13:14:26 +1000 Message-ID: <1793417757.1379305.1690686866266@webmail-oxcs.register.com> In-Reply-To: <20230727015952.3C8FC3769F5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5281589190958352511==" --===============5281589190958352511== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dennis said =20 > > Wait! There is a SCAMP other than Burroughs' Single Chip A-Series=3D20 > > Mainframe Processor. >=20 > And then there's the SC/MP. Here's a relic from IBM's first SCAMP, a large ring binder (16 rings!) from H= ursley, early 1960s. Unfortunately no SCAMP diagrams inside but to this day i= t still contains drawings and paintings I did as a kid :) http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/IBM_SCAMP_folder_Hursley_UK_1962.png Steve. --===============5281589190958352511==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 31 08:38:01 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Professional/350 software, any of this out there Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 10:37:46 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4508590220135305159==" --===============4508590220135305159== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 28 Jul 2023, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher wrote: > Is it possible that there is a Linux version of ImageDisk? > I found a signature "IMD Linux 0.19" in the P/OS images from Yes, it's my own version that I wrote. It uses ioctl() for direct floppy access (not libdisk). I much prefer a command line utility and a universal Linux version so I can image floppies while I continue working at my PC. Christian --===============4508590220135305159==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 31 08:59:28 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCAMP at 61 (IBM Scientific Computer And Modular Processor) was Re: SCAMP at 50 (IBM 5100) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 10:59:19 +0200 Message-ID: <32e37e7c-2720-65c2-aee-bd4f9d1f1276@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <1793417757.1379305.1690686866266@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9006507157619807691==" --===============9006507157619807691== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, steven(a)malikoff.com steven(a)malikoff.com wrote: > Here's a relic from IBM's first SCAMP, a large ring binder (16 rings!) > from Hursley, early 1960s. Unfortunately no SCAMP diagrams inside but to > this day it still contains drawings and paintings I did as a kid :) Either the date is very wrong, or it is not about SCAMP (Special Computer APL Machine Portable, or something like that), as it was developed ten years later. Christian --===============9006507157619807691==-- From steven@malikoff.com Mon Jul 31 10:18:01 2023 From: "steven@malikoff.com steven@malikoff.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCAMP at 61 (IBM Scientific Computer And Modular Processor) was Re: SCAMP at 50 (IBM 5100) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 20:17:54 +1000 Message-ID: <1112660528.1419134.1690798674632@webmail-oxcs.register.com> In-Reply-To: <32e37e7c-2720-65c2-aee-bd4f9d1f1276@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8564077853340745869==" --===============8564077853340745869== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 07/31/2023 6:59 PM AEST Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, steven(a)malikoff.com steven(a)malikoff.com wrote: > > Here's a relic from IBM's first SCAMP, a large ring binder (16 rings!)=20 > > from Hursley, early 1960s. Unfortunately no SCAMP diagrams inside but to = > > this day it still contains drawings and paintings I did as a kid :) >=20 > Either the date is very wrong, or it is not about SCAMP (Special Computer=20 > APL Machine Portable, or something like that), as it was developed ten=20 > years later. The date is very right, and it is about SCAMP: https://slx-online.biz/hursley/site-search-results-mod1.asp?descrip_tion=3Dsc= amp My dad was at Hursley shortly after to train on the 360/40 before being annou= nced and I can only suppose he fished the folder out of the rubbish during th= at time. --===============8564077853340745869==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Mon Jul 31 17:33:31 2023 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCAMP at 61 (IBM Scientific Computer And Modular Processor) was Re: SCAMP at 50 (IBM 5100) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 10:32:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1112660528.1419134.1690798674632@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9019212576382061224==" --===============9019212576382061224== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Note "S*cientific Computer and Modular Processor (SCAMP) was developed during 1961 and 1962*" <> SCAMP (Special Computer APL Machine Portable) developed in the early 1970s and the subject of the original post. On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 3:18=E2=80=AFAM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via c= ctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 07/31/2023 6:59 PM AEST Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, steven(a)malikoff.com steven(a)malikoff.com wrote: > > > Here's a relic from IBM's first SCAMP, a large ring binder (16 rings!) > > > from Hursley, early 1960s. Unfortunately no SCAMP diagrams inside but > to > > > this day it still contains drawings and paintings I did as a kid :) > > > > Either the date is very wrong, or it is not about SCAMP (Special > Computer > > APL Machine Portable, or something like that), as it was developed ten > > years later. > > The date is very right, and it is about SCAMP: > > https://slx-online.biz/hursley/site-search-results-mod1.asp?descrip_tion=3D= scamp > > My dad was at Hursley shortly after to train on the 360/40 before being > announced and I can only suppose he fished the folder out of the rubbish > during that time. > --=20 Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============9019212576382061224==-- From steven@malikoff.com Mon Jul 31 22:01:50 2023 From: "steven@malikoff.com steven@malikoff.com" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCAMP at 61 (IBM Scientific Computer And Modular Processor) was Re: SCAMP at 50 (IBM 5100) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 07:56:30 +1000 Message-ID: <1134528438.1525918.1690840590860@webmail-oxcs.register.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9061340546953428869==" --===============9061340546953428869== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee said > Note "Scientific Computer and Modular Processor (SCAMP) was developed durin= g 1961 and 1962" <> SCAMP (Special Computer APL Machine Portable) developed i= n the early 1970s and the subject of the original post. =20 Yes, I know. I still have that massive issue of PC World in which I read abou= t it in the early 80s, been interested in it ever since. It was a tremendous = achievement. Hmm two admonishments for taking the thread tangentially (I even= changed the title) so perhaps this happens only rarely on cctalk. OK no more= from me on SCAMP #1, I'll sincerely try and find something more interesting = and on-topic before posting next time. --===============9061340546953428869==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon Jul 31 23:09:28 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCAMP at 61 (IBM Scientific Computer And Modular Processor) was Re: SCAMP at 50 (IBM 5100) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 18:09:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1134528438.1525918.1690840590860@webmail-oxcs.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7228523155199799481==" --===============7228523155199799481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey, it is interesting! It has a reference to microcode and a ROS/ROM type storage. Paul Friedl's January 1973 initial diagram of SCAMP includes a "circular shaped device" at the base - I always took it to be a hard drive platter, but maybe not - maybe it is this older SCAMP type storage (which actually makes more sense -- Paul would know a HDD head and all that wouldn't fit in there). And it's plausible that Mr Friedl "re-purposed" the acronym of SCAMP - no direct evidence as of yet. But I think in 1973 it's possible Paul had 10+ years with IBM by then. I'm also not yet sure if Paul had (by Jan 1973) seen the HP9830 or an earlier sampling of it in late 1972 (my understanding is that the HP9830 was "announced" in late 1972, but not actually available until early 1973 - the IBM engineer's technical journal doesn't mention the HP9830 until October 1973) -- BUT that January 8th 1973 diagram from Paul is suspiciously similar in shape as the HP9830 (including the "printer on top"). See the first image in my summary here: https://voidstar.blog/ibm-scamp-joe-george-notebook/ I see it as 50/50: Possible that these are coincidentally the same name to two different projects. But it also possible the tech of this modular processor perhaps did help inspire the idea of more portable computing? Just unfortunate that Paul Friedl's notes and letters that we have available from 1972/1973, he never elaborates or explains the origin of the name SCAMP. -Steve On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:01 PM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Lee said > > Note "Scientific Computer and Modular Processor (SCAMP) was developed > during 1961 and 1962" <> SCAMP (Special Computer APL Machine Portable) > developed in the early 1970s and the subject of the original post. > > Yes, I know. I still have that massive issue of PC World in which I read > about it in the early 80s, been interested in it ever since. It was a > tremendous achievement. Hmm two admonishments for taking the thread > tangentially (I even changed the title) so perhaps this happens only rarely > on cctalk. OK no more from me on SCAMP #1, I'll sincerely try and find > something more interesting and on-topic before posting next time. --===============7228523155199799481==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jul 31 23:53:05 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SCAMP at 61 (IBM Scientific Computer And Modular Processor) was Re: SCAMP at 50 (IBM 5100) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 16:46:12 -0700 Message-ID: <32d931f5-b3a7-d778-64f9-72db45376409@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3277032961564280384==" --===============3277032961564280384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I note that "SCAMP" has be (re) used several times in the bit-bashing biz. The NS SC/MP (INS8060) MPU was regularly called "Scamp". Unisys also had a multi-chip module for their "A" series mainframes called "Scamp": http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/unisysaseries Finally, there's a recent entry of a homebrew 16-bit CPU called "Scamp": https://github.com/jes/scamp-cpu ...and then there's the German Shepherd crossbred dog that lives across the road, also known as "Scamp". It's getting hard to keep my Scamps straight. --Chuck --===============3277032961564280384==--