From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jun 1 00:01:40 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 17:01:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6287842748054549265==" --===============6287842748054549265== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards hurtling down the highway? --===============6287842748054549265==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jun 1 00:25:22 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 17:25:10 -0700 Message-ID: <1d2e08f6-b3ca-3f6d-54a5-738fdb3bdc96@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0463298370638470753==" --===============0463298370638470753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/31/23 17:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards > hurtling down the highway? I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. --===============0463298370638470753==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Jun 1 00:43:14 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 17:43:04 -0700 Message-ID: <0LkNiv-1qewsq09QR-00cSxU@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6541909704689617532==" --===============6541909704689617532== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >AH! NUTS! :)>Runs and ducks...That's actually pretty funny and much milder t= hen what I was screaming...-Ali --===============6541909704689617532==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Jun 1 01:41:20 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 19:37:54 -0500 Message-ID: <34baab7a-7bcf-af26-3ff0-054b93e4c11f@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3566197949404434114==" --===============3566197949404434114== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This has been covered here before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2549 The bit rate over internet over non-electronic transmission methods depends on several factors: 1. Speed of the mechanical transfer medium (Car, motorcycle, drone, air plane, sled dog, etc.). 2. The time is takes to traverse the distance. 3. The total amount of data being transported. For example a carrier pigeon carrying 1TB USB drive for 1 mile at 30 MPH achieves a speed of: 1 Mile at 30MPH will take 120 seconds.  8Tbits / 120S = 73.3 Gbits/S A UPS driver carrying a 20TB drive 60 miles traveling at 60MPH would achieve a speed of: 60 miles at 60 MPH will take 3600 seconds.  160TBits/3600S = 48GBits/S Fill that UPS truck with 100 20TB drives and the data rate increases by 100 time or 4.88TBits/S. However we are not discussing the latency 😁 On 5/31/2023 7:01 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards > hurtling down the highway? --===============3566197949404434114==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 02:17:48 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 19:17:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3459909119810443393==" --===============3459909119810443393== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 5:01=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards > hurtling down the highway? > This is actually a compelling thought. My answer: a lot. With regards to punched cards: I imagine I converted about 200,000 during the days when I provided that service, equalling an astounding 16 MEGABYTES of data(!!!!!!!) An addendum (and true story): I once converted 50,000 punched cards containing names of the dead, for Mountain View Cemetery in Oakland, California. Sellam --===============3459909119810443393==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Jun 1 02:27:45 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 19:40:09 -0500 Message-ID: <63a5aefd-6916-7d13-04b8-2a94d37e8192@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <1d2e08f6-b3ca-3f6d-54a5-738fdb3bdc96@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2725105806760688918==" --===============2725105806760688918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage density goes way up. On 5/31/2023 7:25 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/31/23 17:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards >> hurtling down the highway? > I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD > cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station > wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. > > --===============2725105806760688918==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jun 1 02:29:09 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 19:29:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4744763342906668355==" --===============4744763342906668355== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The exact quote by Andrew Tanenbaum is: "Never underestimate the=20 bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.". https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Andrew_S._Tanenbaum Randall Munroe has addressed the issue! : https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/ On Wed, 31 May 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 5:01=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards >> hurtling down the highway? >> > > This is actually a compelling thought. > > My answer: a lot. > > With regards to punched cards: I imagine I converted about 200,000 during > the days when I provided that service, equalling an astounding 16 MEGABYTES > of data(!!!!!!!) > > An addendum (and true story): I once converted 50,000 punched cards > containing names of the dead, for Mountain View Cemetery in Oakland, > California. > > Sellam --===============4744763342906668355==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jun 1 02:32:39 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 19:32:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <63a5aefd-6916-7d13-04b8-2a94d37e8192@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9193055555019554504==" --===============9193055555019554504== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards >>> hurtling down the highway? >> I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD >> cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station >> wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. On Wed, 31 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage density goes way up. Well, certainly more than tapes. A 22TB hard drive is physically smaller than 22 1TB Micro-SD cards? --===============9193055555019554504==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 03:04:07 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 20:03:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6995217438167064240==" --===============6995217438167064240== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 7:32=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards > >>> hurtling down the highway? > >> I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD > >> cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station > >> wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. > > On Wed, 31 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage density goes way up. > Well, certainly more than tapes. > > A 22TB hard drive is physically smaller than 22 1TB Micro-SD cards? > There's gotta be something like 1,000 1TB MicroSD cards per 22TB hard drive. Sellam --===============6995217438167064240==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Jun 1 13:27:10 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 08:26:59 -0500 Message-ID: <4c469420-ee7c-f012-8c0f-1d7ae3e5b506@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1031220378612527306==" --===============1031220378612527306== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/31/2023 10:03 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 7:32=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >>>>> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards >>>>> hurtling down the highway? >>>> I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD >>>> cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station >>>> wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. >> On Wed, 31 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>> Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage density goes way up. >> Well, certainly more than tapes. >> >> A 22TB hard drive is physically smaller than 22 1TB Micro-SD cards? >> > There's gotta be something like 1,000 1TB MicroSD cards per 22TB hard drive. > > Sellam if you go purely by cubic volume: 3.5" Drives are 146mm x 101.6mm x=C2=A0 25.4mm (full height) =3D 376,773.44 m= m=C2=B3 2.5" Drives are 100mm x 69.85mm x 19mm (full height) =3D 132,620 mm=C2=B3 uSD cards are=C2=A0 15mm x 11mm x 1 mm =3D 165 mm=C2=B3 2,283 1TB uSD cards will fit in the same cubic area as a 3.5" drive. 803 uSD cards will fit in the same cubic area as a 2.5" drive. The aforementioned 22TB drive was a 3.5" drive so therefore that=20 proverbial station wagon can hold 2,283 times more storage and therefor=20 bandwidth by carrying uSD cards instead of 22TB hard disk drives. Please note:=C2=A0 This calculation does not take into account that due to=20 the smaller volume of the uSD card more of them might be able to fit=20 into the station wagon than the equivalent number of hard drives. I will leave the determination of exactly how many 3.5" hard drives can=20 fit in that station wagon vs uSD cards. Tongue firmly implanted in cheek=F0=9F=98=81 --===============1031220378612527306==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Thu Jun 1 20:45:15 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 22:42:43 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0509822064355829750==" --===============0509822064355829750== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 04:26:56PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > > I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for > > > > comparison: > > > > > > > > 1K            102.4" > > > > 10K          85' > > > > 100K        853' > > > > 1M           1.6 Miles > > > > 10M         16.5 Miles > > > > 100M       165 Miles > > > > 1G            1,695 Miles > > > > 10G          16,947 Miles > > > > 100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences > > > > 1T             69.8 Earth Circumferences > > > On 2023-05-31 4:31 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards? > > On Wed, 31 May 2023, ben via cctalk wrote: > > No. I don't want to sink into a Black Hole, thank you. > > What is the capacity of the NSA Utah Data Center? Well, I'm sure there are persons that could tell you, but then they would have to kill you. And that would be bad, so let's not risk that. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============0509822064355829750==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Thu Jun 1 20:45:21 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 22:40:48 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7137069628758059920==" --===============7137069628758059920== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 05:01:34PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards hurtling > down the highway? $BIGNUM. But the latency is going to be orders of magnitude worse than the station wagon full of tapes, so there is that. Also, SD card reliability being what it is, expect some of that data to "evaporate" along to way, so you might need to look into applying erasure coding and some redundant copies ... SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============7137069628758059920==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 1 21:19:13 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 15:19:06 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6774791149234723539==" --===============6774791149234723539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-06-01 2:40 p.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 05:01:34PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards hurtling >> down the highway? > > $BIGNUM. > > But the latency is going to be orders of magnitude worse than the > station wagon full of tapes, so there is that. Also, SD card reliability > being what it is, expect some of that data to "evaporate" along to way, > so you might need to look into applying erasure coding and some redundant > copies ... > > SCNR, > Alex. I can see them them all flying out the open windows, once you hit the free way. --===============6774791149234723539==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jun 1 21:33:12 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 14:33:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3330660320012368185==" --===============3330660320012368185== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards >>> hurtling down the highway? > On 2023-06-01 2:40 p.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: >> $BIGNUM. >> But the latency is going to be orders of magnitude worse than the >> station wagon full of tapes, so there is that. Also, SD card reliability >> being what it is, expect some of that data to "evaporate" along to way, >> so you might need to look into applying erasure coding and some redundant >> copies ... On Thu, 1 Jun 2023, ben via cctalk wrote: > I can see them them all flying out the open windows, once you hit the free > way. You would not have windows open, and you would probably have them in cigar boxes, shoe boxes, and lots of old Amazon delivery boxes. But, there is another problem. None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! In 2012, I walked into the Toyota dealer, with checkbook in hand, and said, "I want to buy a Prius Station Wagon". The salesman said, "We don't have any station wagons." So, I turned and headed towards the door. He ran after me, and said, "but, we have this, which is kind of like a mini SUV.", and pointed to a Prius V ("Prius Alpha in other markets). It sure looked like a station wagon to me, and I bought it. They now have some "crossovers", that look like station wagons. And, of course, modern SUVs no longer look like jeeps, they look like a macho station wagon. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3330660320012368185==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jun 1 23:20:48 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 16:20:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3233b34b-7c80-53c8-0362-23c8c61f2ac9@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8153091093934318609==" --===============8153091093934318609== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/1/23 14:33, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > But, there is another problem. > > None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! > That's not true, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo all have wagons and I suppose one could consider the Subaru Outback to be one. Many SUVs remind me of light trucks. Take, for instance, the GMC Subdivision... I still have fond memories of my old Volvo Turbobrick... --Chuck --===============8153091093934318609==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Jun 1 23:37:27 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 18:37:13 -0500 Message-ID: <5c9ea78e-d96e-e898-f353-c8e9d3b1c1ac@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <3233b34b-7c80-53c8-0362-23c8c61f2ac9@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8389612143853775703==" --===============8389612143853775703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm sorry but Audi does not make a lowly station wagon😲 They use to make the all road which is basically a cross over. And they have several models of Avant (fancy snooty name for station wagon).😁 Audi has announced for 2025 the RS6 Avant Plug In Hybrid  (full specs haven't been released yet but think 600 to 800 HP in a wagon). That's not you fathers station wagon. On 6/1/2023 6:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/1/23 14:33, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> But, there is another problem. >> >> None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! >> > That's not true, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo all have wagons and I suppose one > could consider the Subaru Outback to be one. > > Many SUVs remind me of light trucks. Take, for instance, the GMC > Subdivision... > > I still have fond memories of my old Volvo Turbobrick... > > --Chuck > > --===============8389612143853775703==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Thu Jun 1 23:43:53 2023 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Station wagons (was: Re: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 16:43:46 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5c9ea78e-d96e-e898-f353-c8e9d3b1c1ac@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2594513019705891744==" --===============2594513019705891744== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/1/23 16:37, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I'm sorry but Audi does not make a lowly station wagon😲 I don't know about that.  My wife's Q7 sure looks like a station wagon to me. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…" --===============2594513019705891744==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jun 1 23:51:41 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Station wagons (was: Re: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 16:51:27 -0700 Message-ID: <8124f4d9-6573-face-a417-8f38474e5ee5@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5533332742872193211==" --===============5533332742872193211== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/1/23 16:43, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/1/23 16:37, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> I'm sorry but Audi does not make a lowly station wagon😲 > > I don't know about that.  My wife's Q7 sure looks like a station wagon > to me. > Mike did say " lowly" station wagon. For that matter, there's the Porsche Taycan Cross. The Volvo V90 Cross Country certainly does look like a wagon. As does the Mercedes E450 All-Terrain. Granted, none of them look like a Ford Country Squire, but progress... --Chuck --===============5533332742872193211==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jun 2 00:01:30 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 17:01:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3233b34b-7c80-53c8-0362-23c8c61f2ac9@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1020329772068192587==" --===============1020329772068192587== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> But, there is another problem. >> None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! On Thu, 1 Jun 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > That's not true, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo all have wagons and I suppose one > could consider the Subaru Outback to be one. > Many SUVs remind me of light trucks. Take, for instance, the GMC > Subdivision... > I still have fond memories of my old Volvo Turbobrick... I was actually just griping about the fad terminology. Most of them make things that I would call a "station wagon". But, Toyota insisted that they don't make "station wagons". I thought that my Prius V was a station wagon. It sure seemed like it to me. The dealer insisted that it was a "mini SUV" They have discontinued it. Audi makes an "all road"; Subaru makes an "Outback"; Volvo and Mercedes at least make "wagons", but nobody is willing to call what they make a "station wagon". I learned to drive in a '57 Chevy Station Wagon. I had a 1976 Civic Station Wagon, and a 1984 Civic Station Wagon. and a 2012 Prius V, that I thought was a station wagon. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1020329772068192587==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Fri Jun 2 06:51:33 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Disk-pack-based drives at LCM Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 06:51:24 +0000 Message-ID: <749991338.8869486.1685688684645@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <749991338.8869486.1685688684645.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4783105382785519754==" --===============4783105382785519754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all,=20 I just came across pictures on the LCM website about their SDS Sigma installa= tion there. On the pictures, one can see 10-platter disk packs in the corner and stored o= n the disk drives.=20 Did the LCM ever had these in operation, either for data retrieval or even de= mo purposes? I know of the Jim Austin Computer museum where they fixed a CDC 9766 drive bu= t it suffered a head crash after a few hours according to their description which led to gi= ving up the operation=20 of these drives. Greetings,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============4783105382785519754==-- From tih@hamartun.priv.no Fri Jun 2 10:45:03 2023 From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 12:44:52 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1350536751670718524==" --===============1350536751670718524== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred Cisin via cctalk writes: > Data will expand to fill slightly more than all available storage > capacity. - Boyle's law "The steady state of disks is full." --Ken Thompson -tih -- Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay --===============1350536751670718524==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 15:15:10 2023 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Station wagons (was: Re: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 10:14:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8124f4d9-6573-face-a417-8f38474e5ee5@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4787366143002239322==" --===============4787366143002239322== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable volvo 245 and mercedes w123 wagons were the best tanks for wgons On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 6:51=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/1/23 16:43, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 6/1/23 16:37, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm sorry but Audi does not make a lowly station wagon=F0=9F=98=B2 > > > > I don't know about that. My wife's Q7 sure looks like a station wagon > > to me. > > > Mike did say " lowly" station wagon. For that matter, there's the > Porsche Taycan Cross. > The Volvo V90 Cross Country certainly does look like a wagon. > As does the Mercedes E450 All-Terrain. > > Granted, none of them look like a Ford Country Squire, but progress... > > --Chuck > > --===============4787366143002239322==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 15:24:43 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 11:24:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6054757149982095788==" --===============6054757149982095788== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 4:45=E2=80=AFPM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 05:01:34PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards hurtli= ng > > down the highway? > > $BIGNUM. I did see an actual 1970s station wagon loaded with RL02 cartridges once, pulled up at the dock of Baker Systems, the large Computer Science building at Ohio State (I suspect they were cleaning out a machine room and someone wanted the packs. Obviously I didn't know the right person that day). At Pole, we saved all the raw sensor data from AMANDA and later Ice Cube to DLT-format tapes (increasing the media/drive density over time) once a year, and it quickly grew to the point that we were stuffing several hundred TB of tape into an LC-130 to ship back to Wisconsin. It took 3-4 months to read last year's data once it arrived. So maybe not a 747 full of magtape, but still, a couple of cubic meters of DLT tape going 850 miles in 3.5 hours (Pole to McMurdo) is pretty decent bandwidth. The MCM->NZ leg was on a jet (C-17) so it upped the bandwidth, but on a larger plane so the effective capacity utilization dropped. -ethan --===============6054757149982095788==-- From john@jfloren.net Fri Jun 2 16:06:44 2023 From: John Floren To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VT180 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 15:56:19 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4502938510477180034==" --===============4502938510477180034== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone on the list have a VT-180 a.k.a "Robin"? I got one for free a while ba= ck, but no disks. Wondering if anyone's in a position to make copies of their= working disks and mail them to me -- I could have blanks sent, of course. I'= m in the SF bay area. john --===============4502938510477180034==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Jun 2 16:25:52 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Station wagons (was: Re: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 18:25:35 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2486785594175472711==" --===============2486785594175472711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We're running two VOLVO 940 station wagons on LPG. Best cars we ever had! Ulli Adrian Stoness via cctalk schrieb am Fr., 2. Juni 2023, 17:15: > volvo 245 and mercedes w123 wagons were the best tanks for wgons > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 6:51 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On 6/1/23 16:43, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 6/1/23 16:37, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > >> I'm sorry but Audi does not make a lowly station wagon😲 > > > > > > I don't know about that. My wife's Q7 sure looks like a station wagon > > > to me. > > > > > Mike did say " lowly" station wagon. For that matter, there's the > > Porsche Taycan Cross. > > The Volvo V90 Cross Country certainly does look like a wagon. > > As does the Mercedes E450 All-Terrain. > > > > Granted, none of them look like a Ford Country Squire, but progress... > > > > --Chuck > > > > > --===============2486785594175472711==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Jun 2 16:33:00 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT180 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 11:32:56 -0500 Message-ID: <1944697816.521741.1685723576522@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Csgo3RX6YaEZWKX9lse25BuSWXhvY3JUgjcazjpBzXTooOBlAeT?= =?utf-8?q?jm7rupe81NLUMFcZkH3Eia5kDigKBzkr7EJwDPTsI4AeeLoe5X1zS4Bww=3D=40jf?= =?utf-8?q?loren=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5764595765911805674==" --===============5764595765911805674== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 06/02/2023 10:56 AM CDT John Floren via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Anyone on the list have a VT-180 a.k.a "Robin"? I got one for free a while = back, but no disks. Wondering if anyone's in a position to make copies of the= ir working disks and mail them to me -- I could have blanks sent, of course. = I'm in the SF bay area. >=20 > john I don't have a VT-180 or disks, but I think you can find disk images at this = link: http://www.gaby.de/sysdisk.htm In the list it says the Robin disk is in the archive, listed underneath the R= ainbow. Download the archive and look in the 1997 directory. The file robn-= cpm.td0 "should" be the boot disk image. Will I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla --===============5764595765911805674==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jun 2 16:41:40 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Station wagons (was: Re: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 09:41:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0120267711882178175==" --===============0120267711882178175== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/2/23 09:25, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk wrote: > We're running two VOLVO 940 station wagons on LPG. Best cars we ever had! Yup. Owned a 940. The problems I had wee mostly with (a) too many plastic parts and (b) lead-free solder. I reworked the relay box using good old leaded solder, but never did get around to fixing the sound system. --Chuck --===============0120267711882178175==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 17:23:40 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT180 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 13:23:22 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Csgo3RX6YaEZWKX9lse25BuSWXhvY3JUgjcazjpBzXTooOBlAeT?= =?utf-8?q?jm7rupe81NLUMFcZkH3Eia5kDigKBzkr7EJwDPTsI4AeeLoe5X1zS4Bww=3D=40jf?= =?utf-8?q?loren=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4250635198323862177==" --===============4250635198323862177== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have one, if the images dont work, I can make them and post online. If you want actual disks, let me know Bill On Fri, Jun 2, 2023, 12:06 PM John Floren via cctalk wrote: > Anyone on the list have a VT-180 a.k.a "Robin"? I got one for free a while > back, but no disks. Wondering if anyone's in a position to make copies of > their working disks and mail them to me -- I could have blanks sent, of > course. I'm in the SF bay area. > > john > --===============4250635198323862177==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 17:52:42 2023 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk-pack-based drives at LCM Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 10:52:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <749991338.8869486.1685688684645@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6466378950967563889==" --===============6466378950967563889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pierre, Yes, when LCM was open the Sigma-9 and the connected drives were up and operational, I can't remember what OS the system was running. Maybe CP-V or UTS? Lee On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 11:51=E2=80=AFPM P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I just came across pictures on the LCM website about their SDS Sigma > installation there. > On the pictures, one can see 10-platter disk packs in the corner and > stored on the disk drives. > Did the LCM ever had these in operation, either for data retrieval or even > demo purposes? > I know of the Jim Austin Computer museum where they fixed a CDC 9766 drive > but it suffered > a head crash after a few hours according to their description which led to > giving up the operation > of these drives. > > Greetings, > Pierre > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de > --=20 Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============6466378950967563889==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 20:38:47 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 13:38:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4725754896673922437==" --===============4725754896673922437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 8:24=E2=80=AFAM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I did see an actual 1970s station wagon loaded with RL02 cartridges > once, pulled up at the dock of Baker Systems, the large Computer > Science building at Ohio State (I suspect they were cleaning out a > machine room and someone wanted the packs. Obviously I didn't know > the right person that day). > It might've just been an enactment of the old adage for a video project. Maybe they dumped the carts afterwards? :( Sellam --===============4725754896673922437==-- From john@jfloren.net Fri Jun 2 20:45:21 2023 From: John Floren To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT180 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 20:35:44 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8318877896917982514==" --===============8318877896917982514== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since you've got one, maybe you can clear up my assumptions... I'd been figur= ing that once I got, say, Kermit up and running from a disk, I could use a se= rial cable to transfer disk images from my PC to the VT180 and write them to = disk that way. Being extremely unfamiliar with the system, though, I guess I'= m not sure that will work or not. Have you been able to do something like tha= t, or have you had to use tools like Greaseweazle to prepare disks from image= s? Thanks, john ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, June 2nd, 2023 at 10:23 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > I have one, if the images dont work, I can make them and post online. If > you want actual disks, let me know > Bill >=20 > On Fri, Jun 2, 2023, 12:06 PM John Floren via cctalk cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >=20 > wrote: >=20 > > Anyone on the list have a VT-180 a.k.a "Robin"? I got one for free a while > > back, but no disks. Wondering if anyone's in a position to make copies of > > their working disks and mail them to me -- I could have blanks sent, of > > course. I'm in the SF bay area. > >=20 > > john --===============8318877896917982514==-- From dittman@dittman.net Fri Jun 2 20:57:48 2023 From: Eric Dittman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT180 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 15:52:03 -0500 Message-ID: <4810ed98-38fb-5738-a258-9f7bcdf8d480@dittman.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CUxzq1VP9Z6QE4=5FJH18ACW6flSJA3UsI-RvJ7jW4xPc0t6W6l?= =?utf-8?q?MVBiOWeRSPFni0IHrO0yp3cIxPuk75xYahl7WF1hnzxIgHWt8Q6O7QPlwdE=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?jfloren=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1572817398498840638==" --===============1572817398498840638== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of the VT180, I have one but am missing the disk drives and cable. Does any have a spare they'd like to sell? -- Eric Dittman --===============1572817398498840638==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 20:58:22 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT180 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 16:56:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CUxzq1VP9Z6QE4=5FJH18ACW6flSJA3UsI-RvJ7jW4xPc0t6W6l?= =?utf-8?q?MVBiOWeRSPFni0IHrO0yp3cIxPuk75xYahl7WF1hnzxIgHWt8Q6O7QPlwdE=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?jfloren=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1588255514662499811==" --===============1588255514662499811== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Use Dunfield's image disk cp/m disks are easier than most to produce from an image. On Fri, Jun 2, 2023, 4:45 PM John Floren via cctalk wrote: > Since you've got one, maybe you can clear up my assumptions... I'd been > figuring that once I got, say, Kermit up and running from a disk, I could > use a serial cable to transfer disk images from my PC to the VT180 and > write them to disk that way. Being extremely unfamiliar with the system, > though, I guess I'm not sure that will work or not. Have you been able to > do something like that, or have you had to use tools like Greaseweazle to > prepare disks from images? > > Thanks, > > john > > > > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Friday, June 2nd, 2023 at 10:23 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have one, if the images dont work, I can make them and post online. If > > you want actual disks, let me know > > Bill > > > > On Fri, Jun 2, 2023, 12:06 PM John Floren via cctalk > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > > > wrote: > > > > > Anyone on the list have a VT-180 a.k.a "Robin"? I got one for free a > while > > > back, but no disks. Wondering if anyone's in a position to make copies > of > > > their working disks and mail them to me -- I could have blanks sent, of > > > course. I'm in the SF bay area. > > > > > > john > --===============1588255514662499811==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jun 2 21:18:05 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT180 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 14:18:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CUxzq1VP9Z6QE4=5FJH18ACW6flSJA3UsI-RvJ7jW4xPc0t6W6l?= =?utf-8?q?MVBiOWeRSPFni0IHrO0yp3cIxPuk75xYahl7WF1hnzxIgHWt8Q6O7QPlwdE=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?jfloren=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2754414294728111354==" --===============2754414294728111354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2 Jun 2023, John Floren via cctalk wrote: > Since you've got one, maybe you can clear up my assumptions... I'd been fig= uring that once I got, say, Kermit up and running from a disk, I could use a = serial cable to transfer disk images from my PC to the VT180 and write them t= o disk that way. Being extremely unfamiliar with the system, though, I guess = I'm not sure that will work or not. Have you been able to do something like t= hat, or have you had to use tools like Greaseweazle to prepare disks from ima= ges? With appropriate software, you should be able to create VT180 disks on a PC w= ith a 360K drive. (MFM, 48tpi) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2754414294728111354==-- From norwayjose@mac.com Fri Jun 2 22:14:08 2023 From: Rod Bartlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk-pack-based drives at LCM Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 18:07:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <749991338.8869486.1685688684645@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3232864067774293213==" --===============3232864067774293213== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't say I blame them. It was a lot of work to get a drive running after = a head crash. If it was a bad crash, there could be extensive cleaning to be= done followed by replacing one or more heads. Then the new heads had to be = aligned. If you hadn't cleaned thoroughly enough, you risked damaging the ex= pensive alignment disk. Once I came back from lunch to see the operators had 3 drives open. They kep= t swapping a disk pack which was giving I/O errors to new drives and were cra= shing heads along the way due to the damaged disk pack. I stopped them befor= e they spun up the pack on a 4th drive. That wasn't as bad as the time one o= f them dropped a disk pack and bent platters. That ripped heads completely o= ut of the mounting mechanism. Ah, the good old days! Rod > On Jun 2, 2023, at 2:51 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Hi all,=20 >=20 > I just came across pictures on the LCM website about their SDS Sigma instal= lation there. > On the pictures, one can see 10-platter disk packs in the corner and stored= on the disk drives.=20 > Did the LCM ever had these in operation, either for data retrieval or even = demo purposes? > I know of the Jim Austin Computer museum where they fixed a CDC 9766 drive = but it suffered > a head crash after a few hours according to their description which led to = giving up the operation=20 > of these drives. >=20 > Greetings,=20 > Pierre >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============3232864067774293213==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sat Jun 3 18:00:15 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 19:46:04 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2508359880454099136==" --===============2508359880454099136== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 02:33:07PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > But, there is another problem. > > None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa, so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============2508359880454099136==-- From knowak@alumni.calpoly.edu Sat Jun 3 18:01:15 2023 From: Kurt Nowak To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Tips on VME board access Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 09:33:03 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1001062741568196651==" --===============1001062741568196651== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have a Sun 3/110 with a faulty video section (hangs at boot when it polls the FB) and I want to be able to probe and troubleshoot the board. Does anyone have any tips on how to get at it since it's buried in the VME chassis. I was thinking of having an extension card made but thought I'd ask here and see what others have done first. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks -Kurt --===============1001062741568196651==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 3 18:26:06 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 12:25:48 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4029734799983404543==" --===============4029734799983404543== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-06-03 11:46 a.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 02:33:07PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> But, there is another problem. >> >> None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! > > Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and > Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which > are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that > a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa, > so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down > the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface). Getting older now, packing a sofa, next a love seat.:) > Kind regards, > Alex. But can it handle any kind of rack mount computer? Ben. --===============4029734799983404543==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sat Jun 3 20:05:48 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 21:54:42 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2661847219175898591==" --===============2661847219175898591== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 12:25:48PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-06-03 11:46 a.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 02:33:07PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > But, there is another problem. > > > > > > None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! > > > > Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and > > Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which > > are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that > > a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa, > > so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down > > the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface). > > Getting older now, packing a sofa, next a love seat.:) Hehe. > But can it handle any kind of rack mount computer? Depends. I'm pretty sure it won't fit a full height rack, but as long as the computer only occupies _part_ of the rack it might fit. I _have_ used the car to transport more than a dozen rack mounted machines to their new homes when our club had to clear out the bunker data center in the Swiss Alps (due to the place changing owners and the new owners having different plans). But those were almost all 1U pizza boxen, and reasonably current (hence off topic here) hardware to boot. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============2661847219175898591==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jun 3 20:30:50 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 13:30:39 -0700 Message-ID: <6d58c18b-65d4-b075-ad67-e8ce86a8d99f@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5908583779284063530==" --===============5908583779284063530== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/3/23 12:54, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: But can it handle any kind of rack mount computer? > > Depends. I'm pretty sure it won't fit a full height rack, but as long > as the computer only occupies _part_ of the rack it might fit. I _have_ > used the car to transport more than a dozen rack mounted machines to > their new homes when our club had to clear out the bunker data center > in the Swiss Alps (due to the place changing owners and the new owners > having different plans). But those were almost all 1U pizza boxen, > and reasonably current (hence off topic here) hardware to boot. Depends. I've transported a 32U rack in the back of a Gen2 Prius--just barely, but the hatch closed fully. --Chuck --===============5908583779284063530==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Sat Jun 3 21:54:05 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 17:53:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2005756927360247215==" --===============2005756927360247215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 4:38=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 8:24=E2=80=AFAM Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: > > > I did see an actual 1970s station wagon loaded with RL02 cartridges > > once, pulled up at the dock of Baker Systems, the large Computer > > Science building at Ohio State (I suspect they were cleaning out a > > machine room and someone wanted the packs....) > > It might've just been an enactment of the old adage for a video project. > Maybe they dumped the carts afterwards? :( This was in the late 80s when packs and such were still somewhat desirable. I did not see any cameras on the dock. -ethan --===============2005756927360247215==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jun 3 22:03:49 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 15:03:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2615853538211298928==" --===============2615853538211298928== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> But, there is another problem. >> None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and > Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which > are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that > a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa, > so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down > the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface). Yes, quite true. As stated previously, that was a gripe about fad terminology. Note the quotation marks in the original post. The same as Tony (ARD) being unable to do "Sneaker-Net", due to unavailability of "Sneakers" within his shopping range of his home. BTW, the 1992 movie "Sneakers" (was it renamed for UK showings?), with Robert Redford, Sidney Poitier, and James Earl Jones, was one of the first (if not "The First"), movie to out the existence of NSA. Many companies make suitable vehicles, but NONE of them are willing to call them "station wagons". If the Purchase Order explicitly specifies "Station Wagon", then will the bureaucrats in purchasing let you substitute a "Variant", instead of a "Station Wagon"? My 1957 Chevrolet, that I learned to drive in, was marketed as a "Station Wagon". It held sofas, String Bass, and Sousaphones (but never tried all of those at the same time). It would have easily held a full size rack, AND lot of tapes. I thought that my girlfriend's 1968 VW "Squareback" was a "Station Wagon", but apparently not. It easily held an MTST, but I doubt whether a full size rack would have fit. My 1984 Civic "Station Wagon" was marketed as a "Station Wagon". I'm not sure whether a full size rack would have fit. Maybe. My 2012 Prius V/Alpha; Toyota DENIED that it was a "Station Wagon", although it sure seemed to me to be one. I'm not sure whether a full size rack would have fit. Probably not. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2615853538211298928==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jun 3 22:06:31 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 15:06:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0483414036988129926==" --===============0483414036988129926== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 8:24=E2=80=AFAM Ethan Dicks via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I did see an actual 1970s station wagon loaded with RL02 cartridges >>> once, pulled up at the dock of Baker Systems, the large Computer >>> Science building at Ohio State (I suspect they were cleaning out a >>> machine room and someone wanted the packs....) > On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 4:38=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: >> It might've just been an enactment of the old adage for a video project. >> Maybe they dumped the carts afterwards? :( On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > This was in the late 80s when packs and such were still somewhat desirable. > > I did not see any cameras on the dock. The cameras would not be needed until it was "hurtling down the highway",=20 not at the loading dock, nor even PRNDL'ing in the parking lot. --===============0483414036988129926==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Jun 3 22:15:40 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 22:15:31 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0934312765910905022==" --===============0934312765910905022== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It=E2=80=99s amazing to me how small =E2=80=9Cfull size=E2=80=9D cars are the= se days. I saw my old 1961 Ford Falcon that used to be a small car and its bi= gger than my =E2=80=9Cluxury full size=E2=80=9D car today. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 3, 2023, at 15:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 8:24=E2=80=AFAM Ethan Dicks via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> I did see an actual 1970s station wagon loaded with RL02 cartridges >>>> once, pulled up at the dock of Baker Systems, the large Computer >>>> Science building at Ohio State (I suspect they were cleaning out a >>>> machine room and someone wanted the packs....) >=20 >> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 4:38=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk >> wrote: >>> It might've just been an enactment of the old adage for a video project. >>> Maybe they dumped the carts afterwards? :( >=20 > On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> This was in the late 80s when packs and such were still somewhat desirable. >>=20 >> I did not see any cameras on the dock. >=20 > The cameras would not be needed until it was "hurtling down the highway", n= ot at the loading dock, nor even PRNDL'ing in the parking lot. --===============0934312765910905022==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jun 3 22:55:12 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 15:55:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM5PR1001MB2185318D7AA77755CF2102C4E44FA=40DM5PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2185=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6983847668594890978==" --===============6983847668594890978== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Wayne S wrote: > It’s amazing to me how small “full size” cars are these days. I > saw my old 1961 Ford Falcon that used to be a small car and its bigger > than my “luxury full size” car today. The 1962 Ford Falcon "Squire Station Wagon" even had faux wood on the sides! The Ford Falcon, through 1965, was a "Compact car". My parents had a Ford Falcon Futura convertible. After 1966, Ford started making it larger, up to the 1970.5 "intermediate" car. Towards the end of the 1970s, American car companies finally started to got over their insistence that bigger is better, as small foreign cars started to eat their lunch. --===============6983847668594890978==-- From jdbryan@acm.org Sat Jun 3 23:25:28 2023 From: "J. David Bryan" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tips on VME board access Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 19:20:40 -0400 Message-ID: <20230603232524.CE677861B9@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1082898766737349179==" --===============1082898766737349179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kurt, On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 9:33, Kurt Nowak via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have any tips on how to get at it since it's buried in the > VME chassis. I was thinking of having an extension card made but > thought I'd ask here and see what others have done first. I don't know anything about VME, but Vector Electronics makes VME extenders: https://www.vectorelect.com/extenders.html ...which might save you some effort. -- Dave --===============1082898766737349179==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sun Jun 4 00:20:44 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 02:12:25 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2270327927950919921==" --===============2270327927950919921== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 03:03:43PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > But, there is another problem. > > > None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! > > On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and > > Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which > > are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that > > a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa, > > so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down > > the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface). > > Yes, quite true. > As stated previously, that was a gripe about fad terminology. > Note the quotation marks in the original post. > The same as Tony (ARD) being unable to do "Sneaker-Net", due to > unavailability of "Sneakers" within his shopping range of his home. > BTW, the 1992 movie "Sneakers" (was it renamed for UK showings?), with > Robert Redford, Sidney Poitier, and James Earl Jones, was one of the first > (if not "The First"), movie to out the existence of NSA. > > Many companies make suitable vehicles, but NONE of them are willing to call > them "station wagons". If the Purchase Order explicitly specifies "Station > Wagon", then will the bureaucrats in purchasing let you substitute a > "Variant", instead of a "Station Wagon"? So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers country) never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi" class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually) and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding down the rear seats to provide a flat surface. And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went away - there are still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful" (aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity"). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============2270327927950919921==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jun 4 00:37:29 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 17:37:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1190305941920742187==" --===============1190305941920742187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 5:20 PM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers > country) > never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist > there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi" > class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped > like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually) > and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding > down the rear seats to provide a flat surface In other words, a station wagon :) > And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went away - there are > still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody > makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a > different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got > a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you > think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting > worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful" > (aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity"). > It's because the station wagon has the connotation of being a perfect transportation machine for a large middle class family, and being middle class and having a large family are two concepts that are in the process of being stamped out by people who want neither. Bring back the station wagon! Sellam --===============1190305941920742187==-- From coryheisterkamp@gmail.com Sun Jun 4 00:48:04 2023 From: Cory Heisterkamp To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 19:47:35 -0500 Message-ID: <24108034-2D9A-4D47-B5D1-DCA7055928C6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5414623211156387359==" --===============5414623211156387359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 3, 2023, at 7:12 PM, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers country) > never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist > there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi" > class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped > like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually) > and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding > down the rear seats to provide a flat surface. >=20 > And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went away - there are > still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody > makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a > different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got > a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you > think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting > worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful" > (aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity"). >=20 > Kind regards, > Alex. > --=20 > "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison Here in the US, it wasn=E2=80=99t so much that they were considered =E2=80=98= big and wasteful=E2=80=99, it's that a station wagon has a connotation of bei= ng frumpy, something your parents or grandparents would have driven. Basicall= y, =E2=80=9Cnot cool=E2=80=9D. Ironically, it=E2=80=99s the older generations= that now prefer SUVs due to ease of getting in and out, and higher road visi= bility. The wife and I just purchased a 2018 Buick station wagon. Only offered here f= or 3 years, it=E2=80=99s really an Opel. Sales were abysmal. Nobody knows wha= t it was, nobody has seen one before, and on a recent 1000+ mile to the Dayto= n Hamvention, I never saw another one coming, nor going. Funnily, most though= t it was a Volvo or Mercedes of some sort. We love it. My tape measure says it=E2=80=99ll handle an 083 sorter on its back, and 30+ = MPG means a lot of vintage gear will be getting rescued in the near future. -C --===============5414623211156387359==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jun 4 00:50:38 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 17:50:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7132663143666396703==" --===============7132663143666396703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Many companies make suitable vehicles, but NONE of them are willing to call >> them "station wagons". If the Purchase Order explicitly specifies "Station >> Wagon", then will the bureaucrats in purchasing let you substitute a >> "Variant", instead of a "Station Wagon"? On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers country) > never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist > there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi" > class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped > like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually) > and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding > down the rear seats to provide a flat surface. yes. a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the highway. > And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went away - there are > still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody > makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a > different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got > a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you > think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting > worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful" > (aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity"). Although there EXIST a few [rare] situations where they are truly appropriate, to me, most SUV's are the perfect example of "big and wasteful". Its most common usage around here is as a commuting vehicle for one, or at most two people. I will have to admit that the "station wagon" shape incurs a tiny hit on aerodynamic efficiency vs a sedaan, but other than that, it dramatically increases the capacity of a sedan. I always prefer a "station wagon" over a sedan. I find it comical that the American automotive industry deems the term "station wagon" to almost be an obscenity, with "nobody would want to admit to having one". They think that it represents "stodgy" and "dull". Consider the 1800ES model of the Volvo 1800. My original comment was intended to be analogous to Tony (ARD)'s comment about problem with "sneaker-net" due to "sneakers" being unobtanium in UK. (yes, they do have some shoes that WE might consider to be the same as "sneakers") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7132663143666396703==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jun 4 01:18:48 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 18:18:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3098743574779167344==" --===============3098743574779167344== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 5:50=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > My original comment was intended to be analogous to Tony (ARD)'s > comment about problem with "sneaker-net" due to "sneakers" being > unobtanium in UK. (yes, they do have some shoes that WE might consider to > be the same as "sneakers") > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com Yes, for ARD's sake they could be referred to as "pedantics". Sellam --===============3098743574779167344==-- From barto@kdbarto.org Sun Jun 4 07:58:43 2023 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 21:06:57 -0700 Message-ID: <5967ED14-CB3B-459B-8903-B6D3FF1465ED@kdbarto.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9194477883441140722==" --===============9194477883441140722== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The reason for the =E2=80=9Cstation wagon=E2=80=9D going ways was the CAFE st= andards. The modern SUV is based on a TRUCK chassis, and thus not restricted in MPG ra= tings from the US government. If you have a =E2=80=9Cstation wagon=E2=80=9D that is a =E2=80=9Ccar=E2=80=9D= it is thus subject to CAFE standards. Ford only makes the Mustang as a car (and that more and more only as an E-car= at that), all other cars are SUV=E2=80=99s. Look at the car market from the standpoint of CAFE and you see that cars are = more and more based on a truck base with the fuel economy of a truck. All because the US government is short sigh= ted and myopic in what may happen if it choses to enforce some ideas of what fuel economy may be. Sorry for the rant, and the current ideas of what =E2=80=9Ccars=E2=80=9D are = is just beyond me. David From a Marketing type: Don't give me any technical reason why something can't be done. If you really believed in the product you'd make it work. David Barto barto(a)kdbarto.org > On Jun 3, 2023, at 5:12 PM, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 03:03:43PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> But, there is another problem. >>>> None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! >>=20 >> On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and >>> Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which >>> are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that >>> a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa, >>> so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down >>> the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface). >>=20 >> Yes, quite true. >> As stated previously, that was a gripe about fad terminology. >> Note the quotation marks in the original post. >> The same as Tony (ARD) being unable to do "Sneaker-Net", due to >> unavailability of "Sneakers" within his shopping range of his home. >> BTW, the 1992 movie "Sneakers" (was it renamed for UK showings?), with >> Robert Redford, Sidney Poitier, and James Earl Jones, was one of the first >> (if not "The First"), movie to out the existence of NSA. >>=20 >> Many companies make suitable vehicles, but NONE of them are willing to call >> them "station wagons". If the Purchase Order explicitly specifies "Station >> Wagon", then will the bureaucrats in purchasing let you substitute a >> "Variant", instead of a "Station Wagon"? >=20 > So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers country) > never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist > there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi" > class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped > like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually) > and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding > down the rear seats to provide a flat surface. >=20 > And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went away - there are > still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody > makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a > different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got > a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you > think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting > worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful" > (aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity"). >=20 > Kind regards, > Alex. > --=20 > "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============9194477883441140722==-- From skogtun@gmail.com Sun Jun 4 09:39:16 2023 From: Harald Arnesen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 11:39:08 +0200 Message-ID: <573d8b1f-3c81-123a-03fa-4254ae436c24@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4480083365650208329==" --===============4480083365650208329== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred Cisin via cctalk [04/06/2023 02.50]: > On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers countr= y) >> never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist >> there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi" >> class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped >> like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually) >> and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding >> down the rear seats to provide a flat surface. > yes. a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the highway. ...down the Autobahn. --=20 Hilsen Harald =D0=A1=D0=BB=D0=B0=D0=B2=D0=B0 =D0=A3=D0=BA=D1=80=D0=B0=D1=97=D0=BD=D1=96! --===============4480083365650208329==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 4 17:24:28 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 11:24:18 -0600 Message-ID: <5aba72a0-578c-45f1-df7f-8321825a0a01@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <573d8b1f-3c81-123a-03fa-4254ae436c24@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1672051839253651509==" --===============1672051839253651509== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-06-04 3:39 a.m., Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote: > Fred Cisin via cctalk [04/06/2023 02.50]: >> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers >>> country) >>> never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist >>> there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the >>> "Kombi" >>> class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped >>> like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually) >>> and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding >>> down the rear seats to provide a flat surface. > >> yes.  a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the highway. > > ...down the Autobahn. Down the Autobahn... https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/artifact/331/1893 --===============1672051839253651509==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sun Jun 4 18:56:10 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 14:55:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5aba72a0-578c-45f1-df7f-8321825a0a01@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7825853509005161668==" --===============7825853509005161668== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-06-04 13:24, ben via cctalk wrote: > > Down the Autobahn... > https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/artifact/331/1893 > I think the "bug" is in the back of a "beetle" :) --===============7825853509005161668==-- From rickb@bensene.com Sun Jun 4 19:03:23 2023 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 18:54:39 +0000 Message-ID: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346702937D943@mail2.bensene.com> In-Reply-To: <5aba72a0-578c-45f1-df7f-8321825a0a01@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3979012868939246923==" --===============3979012868939246923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 >> yes.=C2=A0 a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the highway. >=20 > ...down the Autobahn. Ben F. wrote regarding transport of data in a moving vehicle: > the Autobahn... > https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/artifact/331/1893 Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at the time, and, while the advertis= ement was very novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug= , the amount of data potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit = words, or 48K bits. Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the system would retain the conte= nt of its memory without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually = capable moving data from one point to another, albeit, not all that much data. Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it with a = gasoline or diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-= 8. If that were the case, the machine could actually process the data in it= s memory while it was moving down the road...something a station wagon full o= f reels of magnetic tape wouldn't be able to do. --===============3979012868939246923==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Sun Jun 4 19:04:22 2023 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tips on VME board access Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 14:07:07 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1605888238750369672==" --===============1605888238750369672== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did VME work long ago. We used extender cards to get better access. Sometimes a card didn't like being on an extender. Then we might move it to the end of the card cage and pull the end plate off to get access. Never worked with 3/110. If I remember Sun made some big VME boards. We only used 6U normal depth. Seem to be some extenders on ebay. Cheaper than when new... The ones we used were multilayer boards to try to give better signal integrity. If CPU is slot 1 system controller moving it can cause problems if you are trying to talk to other cards. On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 09:33:03AM -0700, Kurt Nowak wrote: > Hi all, > I have a Sun 3/110 with a faulty video section (hangs at boot when it polls > the FB) and I want to be able to probe and troubleshoot the board. Does > anyone have any tips on how to get at it since it's buried in the VME > chassis. I was thinking of having an extension card made but thought I'd > ask here and see what others have done first. Any thoughts would be > appreciated. Thanks > > -Kurt > > ------------------------------ --===============1605888238750369672==-- From rickb@bensene.com Sun Jun 4 20:16:05 2023 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 20:15:58 +0000 Message-ID: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346702937D97C@mail2.bensene.com> In-Reply-To: <04D22010-94E2-431B-8685-F59DBAF95BFD@kdbarto.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2101410746501864127==" --===============2101410746501864127== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Earlier today, I wrote: >> Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at the time, and, while the adver= tisement was very >> novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug, the amount= of data >> potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit words, or 48K bits. >> Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the system would retain the co= ntent of its memory >> without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually capable moving= data from one >> point to another, albeit, not all that much data. >> Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it with= a gasoline or >> diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-8. =C2=A0= =C2=A0If that were the case, >> the machine could actually process the data in its memory while it was mov= ing down the >> road...something a station wagon full of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't b= e able to do. To which David Barto replied: > Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable computer? > Runs, dodging and weaving. I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model 33-ASR Teletype in the passe= nger seat of=20 the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from its stand, it might be ab= le to sit on the seat, and be powered by the same generator that runs the Straight-8. The St= raight-8 came with a 110-baud current-loop serial I/O interface, so it'd just= be a matter of cabling it up to the Teletype. It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd be= far worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/. But, once stopp= ed somewhere pleasant, you could actually develop programs using the punched tape reader/punch on the 33ASR. = It'd definitely be an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek). =20 --===============2101410746501864127==-- From barto@kdbarto.org Sun Jun 4 21:05:29 2023 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 12:24:10 -0700 Message-ID: <04D22010-94E2-431B-8685-F59DBAF95BFD@kdbarto.org> In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346702937D943@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3089552896750299138==" --===============3089552896750299138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 4, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> yes. a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the highway. >>=20 >> ...down the Autobahn. >=20 >=20 > Ben F. wrote regarding transport of data in a moving vehicle: >=20 >> the Autobahn... >> https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/artifact/331/1893 >=20 > Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at the time, and, while the advert= isement was very novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW B= ug, the amount of data potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bi= t words, or 48K bits. >=20 > Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the system would retain the con= tent of its memory without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actuall= y capable moving data from one point to another, albeit, not all that much da= ta. >=20 > Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it with = a gasoline or diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PD= P-8. If that were the case, the machine could actually process the data in = its memory while it was moving down the road...something a station wagon full= of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't be able to do. >=20 Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable computer? Runs, dodging and weaving. David A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? David Barto barto(a)kdbarto.org --===============3089552896750299138==-- From davida@pobox.com Sun Jun 4 21:29:21 2023 From: David Arnold To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 07:23:27 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1181035385965058280==" --===============1181035385965058280== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had a Gen6 Golf wagon. Remarkably useful luggage capacity, but I don=E2=80= =99t think it would have fitted a full-depth rack through the tailgate.=20 Plenty of mag tape or SD-card space though.=20 d > On 4 Jun 2023, at 04:00, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 02:33:07PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wr= ote: >>=20 >> But, there is another problem. >>=20 >> None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s! >=20 > Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and=20 > Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which > are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that > a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa, > so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down > the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface).=20 >=20 > Kind regards, > Alex. > --=20 > "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============1181035385965058280==-- From davida@pobox.com Sun Jun 4 21:32:32 2023 From: David Arnold To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tips on VME board access Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 07:27:45 +1000 Message-ID: <16BD9490-F8F6-4F25-8CCF-FDCD2928FA2F@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5881849437375457991==" --===============5881849437375457991== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ve got a 3/260 (in storage sadly). IIRC, it=E2=80=99s pretty fussy = about what boards go in what slots, so moving to the end might be tricky.=20 I never tried an extender card though.=20 Not very helpful, sorry.=20 d > On 5 Jun 2023, at 05:04, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFDid VME work long ago. We used extender cards to get better access= . Sometimes > a card didn't like being on an extender. Then we might move it to the > end of the card cage and pull the end plate off to get access. Never worked > with 3/110. If I remember Sun made some big VME boards. We only used 6U nor= mal > depth. >=20 > Seem to be some extenders on ebay. Cheaper than when new... The ones we=20 > used were multilayer boards to try to give better signal integrity. >=20 > If CPU is slot 1 system controller moving it can cause problems if you are = > trying to talk to other cards. >=20 >> On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 09:33:03AM -0700, Kurt Nowak wrote: >> Hi all, >> I have a Sun 3/110 with a faulty video section (hangs at boot when it polls >> the FB) and I want to be able to probe and troubleshoot the board. Does >> anyone have any tips on how to get at it since it's buried in the VME >> chassis. I was thinking of having an extension card made but thought I'd >> ask here and see what others have done first. Any thoughts would be >> appreciated. Thanks >>=20 >> -Kurt >>=20 >> ------------------------------ --===============5881849437375457991==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jun 4 21:57:17 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 14:57:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346702937D97C@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2647310243942408544==" --===============2647310243942408544== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek). The original Osborne 1 had a 12V power input! Lee Felsenstein was asked how large and heavy the battery pack would be. He replied that it was not intended to be run portably on batteries, and that that was solely for getting it from one power source to another, and therefore the battery pack might be your car. At the time, Lee drove a Honda Accord (1920 pounds) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2647310243942408544==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jun 4 22:05:48 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 15:05:42 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3618460095307978551==" --===============3618460095307978551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at the time, and, while the=20 >>> . . .=20 >>> Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it wit= h=20 >>> a gasoline or diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run=20 the PDP-8. >> Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable computer? >> Runs, dodging and weaving. > I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model 33-ASR Teletype in the=20 > passenger seat of the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from=20 > its stand, it might be able to sit on the seat, and be powered by the=20 > same generator that runs the Straight-8. It is truly easy to remove the passenger seat. Just unlatch the adjuster and= =20 slide it forward off of the tracks. Then make brackets (out of the bottom of= =20 an old seat) to mount the base of the teletype to the brackets. I have known people who mounted equipment that way. Many/most VW owners did not clean and lube the tracks, so it was often=20 difficult to slide the seat, and the latch spring did not re-engage. Ralph=20 Nader mis-represented that as "Of VWs in accidents, 60%? had the seat come of= f=20 of the track." The CORRECT statistic was, "Of VWs in accidents, IN WHICH THE= RE=20 WAS SEAT DAMAGE, 60%? were the seat came off of the track." Which was, while= =20 still disconcerting and dangerous, trivial to repair by sliding it back on, a= nd=20 cleaning and lubing the track and latch, with no other damage. Removing the bottom of the back seat, and replacing it with a piece of plywoo= d=20 also provides a roomier and more secure base for the payload. Possibly even with enough room for a portable generator? (I don't know the=20 power requirements for the machine, but I do know that VW bugs are not very=20 amenable to trailering.) Be careful about putting weight on the back seat! VW had the battery under th= e=20 back seat, and many owners did not have a cover over the battery to protect=20 against shorting by the seat springs! A type 2 VW bus/van, preferably model 215 (with freight doors on both sides),= =20 would be far more suitable. Or one with sunroof? In some jurisdictions, the DMV would classify ones with any seats in addition= =20 to the driver's seat, as "Station Wagon"! To get commercial (lower cost) plates for my type 2 VW in Maryland, I had to = submit pictures showing that there were no other seats, and they even kicked = those back until I also included one showing that it did have a driver's seat. > It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd = be=20 > far worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/. But, once=20 > stopped somewhere pleasant, you could > actually develop programs using the punched tape reader/punch on the 33ASR.= =20 > It'd definitely be > an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek). . . . and, if you caravaned/carpooled, other vehicles could carry peripherals. No reason why we couldn't eventually have mobile computing! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3618460095307978551==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Sun Jun 4 22:14:17 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk-pack-based drives at LCM Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 22:14:09 +0000 Message-ID: <1738434398.10025397.1685916849828@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8657879018290059408==" --===============8657879018290059408== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Lee,=20 thanks for confirming this! To my knowledge, that would have been the only pl= ace world-wide in very recent past where 300MB drives based on disk packs wou= ld still (or again) be operational and actually be used! Simply amazing - and so unfortunate that it's closed! Greetings,=20 Pierre Am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 19:52:38 MESZ hat Lee Courtney Folgendes geschrieben:=20 Hi Pierre, Yes, when LCM was open the Sigma-9=C2=A0and the connected drives were up and = operational, I can't remember what OS the system was running. Maybe CP-V or U= TS?=C2=A0 Lee On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 11:51=E2=80=AFPM P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Hi all,=20 >=20 > I just came across pictures on the LCM website about their SDS Sigma instal= lation there. > On the pictures, one can see 10-platter disk packs in the corner and stored= on the disk drives.=20 > Did the LCM ever had these in operation, either for data retrieval or even = demo purposes? > I know of the Jim Austin Computer museum where they fixed a CDC 9766 drive = but it suffered > a head crash after a few hours according to their description which led to = giving up the operation=20 > of these drives. >=20 > Greetings,=20 > Pierre >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de >=20 --=20 Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============8657879018290059408==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Sun Jun 4 22:16:33 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk-pack-based drives at LCM Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 22:16:20 +0000 Message-ID: <313136611.9746532.1685916980906@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8172342250202413508==" --===============8172342250202413508== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rod,=20 I don't blame them either! Operating these drives means having access to spar= e heads, alignment equipment and and alignment pack - not taking into account= the work to be put in all of this! Anyway, thanks for sharing your anecdote with us :) Greetings,=20 Pierre >I can't say I blame them.=C2=A0 It was a lot of work to get a drive running = after a head crash.=C2=A0 If it was a bad crash, there >could be extensive cl= eaning to be done followed by replacing one or more heads.=C2=A0 Then the new= heads had to be >aligned.=C2=A0 If you hadn't cleaned thoroughly enough, you= risked damaging the expensive alignment disk. > >Once I came back from lunch to see the operators had 3 drives open.=C2=A0 Th= ey kept swapping a disk pack which was >giving I/O errors to new drives and w= ere crashing heads along the way due to the damaged disk pack.=C2=A0 I stoppe= d >them before they spun up the pack on a 4th drive.=C2=A0 That wasn't as bad= as the time one of them dropped a disk pack >and bent platters.=C2=A0 That r= ipped heads completely out of the mounting mechanism. > >Ah, the good old days! > >Rod > On Jun 2, 2023, at 2:51 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Hi all,=20 >=20 > I just came across pictures on the LCM website about their SDS Sigma instal= lation there. > On the pictures, one can see 10-platter disk packs in the corner and stored= on the disk drives.=20 > Did the LCM ever had these in operation, either for data retrieval or even = demo purposes? > I know of the Jim Austin Computer museum where they fixed a CDC 9766 drive = but it suffered > a head crash after a few hours according to their description which led to = giving up the operation=20 > of these drives. >=20 > Greetings,=20 > Pierre >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============8172342250202413508==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sun Jun 4 22:50:50 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 00:39:05 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <573d8b1f-3c81-123a-03fa-4254ae436c24@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2406543287969798910==" --===============2406543287969798910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:39:08AM +0200, Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote: > Fred Cisin via cctalk [04/06/2023 02.50]: > > On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > > So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers cou= ntry) > > > never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist > > > there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Komb= i" > > > class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped > > > like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually) > > > and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding > > > down the rear seats to provide a flat surface. >=20 > > yes. a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the highway. >=20 > ...down the Autobahn. ... doing a sedate 160 km/h (100 miles/hour) because one is not in a hurry. Kind regards, Alex. --=20 "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============2406543287969798910==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sun Jun 4 22:50:53 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 00:37:33 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <24108034-2D9A-4D47-B5D1-DCA7055928C6@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7549107447528126542==" --===============7549107447528126542== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 07:47:35PM -0500, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > On Jun 3, 2023, at 7:12 PM, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > > So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers count= ry) > > never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist > > there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi" > > class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped > > like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually) > > and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding > > down the rear seats to provide a flat surface. > >=20 > > And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went away - there are > > still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody > > makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a > > different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got > > a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you > > think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting > > worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful" > > (aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity"). > >=20 > > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison >=20 > Here in the US, it wasn=E2=80=99t so much that they were considered =E2=80= =98big and wasteful=E2=80=99, it's that a station wagon has a connotation of = being frumpy, something your parents or grandparents would have driven. Basic= ally, =E2=80=9Cnot cool=E2=80=9D. Ironically, it=E2=80=99s the older generati= ons that now prefer SUVs due to ease of getting in and out, and higher road v= isibility. Eh, this engineer strongly prefers a _practical_ car. That's how I ended up with a Mercedes S204: - Diesel engine - I don't care about driving fast, I want an efficient engine with long service life, lots of torque is nice too - station wagon - I don't care about looks, I want the cargo space and I've used it quite a few times already, although I _do_ think it looks nice (as does my wife), but that is bonus - a _safe_ car - solid design and plenty of safety engineering to keep me and mine alive (and hopefully as minimally injured as possible) in case of an accident - a reliable car - that series has a pretty decent track record from what I can tell and actually doing the regular inspections on time and with the officially certified mechanics helps too I also found simple repairs (such as replacing one of the rear light clusters after I missed (well, I wish I'd _actually_ missed it) a bollard while reversing suprisingly simple: undo 5 screws, disconnect connector, pull old cluster, reconnect connector, put new cluster in, tighten down 5 screws, all done in < 2 min with zero prep (and I'm no mechanic). It also nicely hugs the road, with the suspension hitting the (for me) sweet point of giving you a solid road feel without rattling your teeth on every uneven spot. I'm not a fan of SUVs, mostly for two reasons: - higher center of gravity makes them too easy to roll - they tend to end up on the more heavy side, for which you pay in fuel consumption (the high build doesn't help with that either) and fuel in Europe is not cheap > The wife and I just purchased a 2018 Buick station wagon. Only offered here= for 3 years, it=E2=80=99s really an Opel. Sales were abysmal. Nobody knows w= hat it was, nobody has seen one before, and on a recent 1000+ mile to the Day= ton Hamvention, I never saw another one coming, nor going. Funnily, most thou= ght it was a Volvo or Mercedes of some sort. We love it. >=20 > My tape measure says it=E2=80=99ll handle an 083 sorter on its back, and 30= + MPG means a lot of vintage gear will be getting rescued in the near future.= -C Mine does about 32 mpg (7.2l/100km), which is pretty ok for 200 hp - the OM651 is a pretty decent engine. Put more than 160k km (100k miles) on it so far, plan for plenty more. Kind regards, Alex. --=20 "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============7549107447528126542==-- From rollerton@gmail.com Sun Jun 4 23:07:36 2023 From: Robert Ollerton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk-pack-based drives at LCM Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 16:07:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <313136611.9746532.1685916980906@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7425229061104734642==" --===============7425229061104734642== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cp-v at the LCM, system and swapping on 300MB packs. On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 3:16=E2=80=AFPM P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Hi Rod, > > I don't blame them either! Operating these drives means having access to > spare heads, alignment equipment and and alignment pack - not taking into > account the work to be put in all of this! > Anyway, thanks for sharing your anecdote with us :) > Greetings, > Pierre > > > >I can't say I blame them. It was a lot of work to get a drive running > after a head crash. If it was a bad crash, there >could be extensive > cleaning to be done followed by replacing one or more heads. Then the new > heads had to be >aligned. If you hadn't cleaned thoroughly enough, you > risked damaging the expensive alignment disk. > > > >Once I came back from lunch to see the operators had 3 drives open. They > kept swapping a disk pack which was >giving I/O errors to new drives and > were crashing heads along the way due to the damaged disk pack. I stopped > >them before they spun up the pack on a 4th drive. That wasn't as bad as > the time one of them dropped a disk pack >and bent platters. That ripped > heads completely out of the mounting mechanism. > > > >Ah, the good old days! > > > >Rod > > > On Jun 2, 2023, at 2:51 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I just came across pictures on the LCM website about their SDS Sigma > installation there. > > On the pictures, one can see 10-platter disk packs in the corner and > stored on the disk drives. > > Did the LCM ever had these in operation, either for data retrieval or > even demo purposes? > > I know of the Jim Austin Computer museum where they fixed a CDC 9766 > drive but it suffered > > a head crash after a few hours according to their description which led > to giving up the operation > > of these drives. > > > > Greetings, > > Pierre > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > > http://www.digitalheritage.de > > --===============7425229061104734642==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sun Jun 4 23:21:44 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk-pack-based drives at LCM Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 19:15:43 -0400 Message-ID: <6ed66b9d-9054-e54f-4c3a-cd79b937ab87@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5614158968764626633==" --===============5614158968764626633== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Last time I worked with large pack drives was the three RM03's in 2003=20 or so before I sent AI to LCM. One of the drives had dirty heads and I=20 cleaned them with isopropyl. Mounted a scratch pack and it exploded.=20 Other two drives were clean and worked fine before powering down,=20 parking, and putting away. CDC drives have glue or something that is not compatible with alcohol.=20 RL01/02/RK05/RK03's do not seem to have this issue, I have=20 cleaned/replaced those heads without issue. One important thing: Check the air filter before doing anything. On one=20 of my RL02's the heads were sanded down like cheese wedges and it took=20 me a bit to realize the filter was plugged and not enough air was going=20 over them to allow them to fly properly. Then again that system was used=20 at Solarex, where they cut wafers for solar panels. Filter was choked=20 with silicon dust. Oi.. CZ On 6/4/2023 7:07 PM, Robert Ollerton via cctalk wrote: > cp-v at the LCM, system and swapping on 300MB packs. > > > > On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 3:16=E2=80=AFPM P Gebhardt via cctalk > wrote: > >> Hi Rod, >> >> I don't blame them either! Operating these drives means having access to >> spare heads, alignment equipment and and alignment pack - not taking into >> account the work to be put in all of this! >> Anyway, thanks for sharing your anecdote with us :) >> Greetings, >> Pierre >> >> >>> I can't say I blame them. It was a lot of work to get a drive running >> after a head crash. If it was a bad crash, there >could be extensive >> cleaning to be done followed by replacing one or more heads. Then the new >> heads had to be >aligned. If you hadn't cleaned thoroughly enough, you >> risked damaging the expensive alignment disk. >>> Once I came back from lunch to see the operators had 3 drives open. They >> kept swapping a disk pack which was >giving I/O errors to new drives and >> were crashing heads along the way due to the damaged disk pack. I stopped >>> them before they spun up the pack on a 4th drive. That wasn't as bad as >> the time one of them dropped a disk pack >and bent platters. That ripped >> heads completely out of the mounting mechanism. >>> Ah, the good old days! >>> >>> Rod >>> On Jun 2, 2023, at 2:51 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk >> wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I just came across pictures on the LCM website about their SDS Sigma >> installation there. >>> On the pictures, one can see 10-platter disk packs in the corner and >> stored on the disk drives. >>> Did the LCM ever had these in operation, either for data retrieval or >> even demo purposes? >>> I know of the Jim Austin Computer museum where they fixed a CDC 9766 >> drive but it suffered >>> a head crash after a few hours according to their description which led >> to giving up the operation >>> of these drives. >>> >>> Greetings, >>> Pierre >>> >>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >>> http://www.digitalheritage.de >> --===============5614158968764626633==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jun 4 23:39:31 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 16:39:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346702937D97C@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1682429175570922040==" --===============1682429175570922040== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 1:16 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model 33-ASR Teletype in the > passenger seat of > the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from its stand, it might be > able to sit on the > seat, and be powered by the same generator that runs the Straight-8. The > Straight-8 came with a 110-baud current-loop serial I/O interface, so it'd > just be a matter of cabling it up to the Teletype. > > It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd > be far worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/. But, once > stopped somewhere pleasant, you could > actually develop programs using the punched tape reader/punch on the > 33ASR. It'd definitely be > an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek). Back in the late, great Silicon Valley circa late 1990s when we had the Ricochet packet-switched radio network (well before "smartphones") I had me a Psion Series 5 ARM-powered palmtop computer with a TCP/IP stack installed connected up to my 128Kbps Ricochet data modem and via telnet successfully logged into my server at home (connected to the internet, appropriately enough, through the early @Home cable internet with a fixed IP) and wrote an e-mail while hurtling westbound on I-580 over the Dublin Grade at about 75mph. I'm an experienced distracted driver, so it was perfectly safe. Those were the days. Sellam --===============1682429175570922040==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Mon Jun 5 00:46:04 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 21:28:11 +0100 Message-ID: <01SS6L26GT7C8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346702937D97C@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5765503105028022276==" --===============5765503105028022276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick Bensene wrote: > Earlier today, I wrote: >=20 >>> Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at the time, and, while the adve= rtisement was very >>> novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug, the amoun= t of data >>> potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit words, or 48K bit= s. > >>> Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the system would retain the c= ontent of its memory >>> without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually capable movin= g data from one >>> point to another, albeit, not all that much data. > >>> Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it wit= h a gasoline or >>> diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-8. =C2= =A0=C2=A0If that were the case, >>> the machine could actually process the data in its memory while it was mo= ving down the >>> road...something a station wagon full of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't = be able to do. > > To which David Barto replied: > >> Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable computer? > >> Runs, dodging and weaving. > > I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model 33-ASR Teletype in the pas= senger seat of=20 > the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from its stand, it might be = able to sit on the > seat, and be powered by the same generator that runs the Straight-8. The = Straight-8 came with a 110-baud > current-loop serial I/O interface, so it'd just be a matter of cabling it u= p to the Teletype. >=20 > It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd = be far worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/. > But, once stopped somewhere pleasant, you could actually develop programs u= sing the punched tape reader/punch on > the 33ASR. It'd definitely be an example of early "mobile computing". (Ton= gue firmly in cheek). =20 >=20 Please stop trying to discuss classic computers on the station wagons mailing= list. :-) --===============5765503105028022276==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 01:09:21 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 21:09:14 -0400 Message-ID: <1427649b-c962-29de-feef-873f8c966405@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346702937D97C@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3694681812256218623==" --===============3694681812256218623== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Difficult to get the 60Hz pure AC to sync the data bits, I would think! On 2023-06-04 16:15, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > Earlier today, I wrote: > >>> Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at the time, and, while the adve= rtisement was very >>> novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug, the amoun= t of data >>> potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit words, or 48K bit= s. >>> Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the system would retain the c= ontent of its memory >>> without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually capable movin= g data from one >>> point to another, albeit, not all that much data. >>> Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it wit= h a gasoline or >>> diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-8. =C2= =A0=C2=A0If that were the case, >>> the machine could actually process the data in its memory while it was mo= ving down the >>> road...something a station wagon full of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't = be able to do. > To which David Barto replied: > >> Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable computer? >> Runs, dodging and weaving. > I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model 33-ASR Teletype in the pas= senger seat of > the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from its stand, it might be = able to sit on the > seat, and be powered by the same generator that runs the Straight-8. The = Straight-8 came with a 110-baud current-loop serial I/O interface, so it'd ju= st be a matter of cabling it up to the Teletype. > > It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd = be far worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/. But, once sto= pped somewhere pleasant, you could > actually develop programs using the punched tape reader/punch on the 33ASR.= It'd definitely be > an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek). > --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============3694681812256218623==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 01:09:38 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2023 21:09:32 -0400 Message-ID: <57f40700-75d3-898a-268e-f7598e7c9c41@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB3346702937D97C@mail2.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0543325741914727579==" --===============0543325741914727579== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Back in the 70s, VW had a competition going when they came up with a=20 diagnostic connector (maybe pre-dating OBD2 or J1850?) to give it a name. An engineer that sat next to me came up with what I thought should have=20 been the winning entry, although I am not sure he entered it: "Debug the=20 Bug plug". I wonder if anybody has heard of this in the wild? cheers, Nigel On 2023-06-04 16:15, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > Earlier today, I wrote: > >>> Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at the time, and, while the adve= rtisement was very >>> novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug, the amoun= t of data >>> potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit words, or 48K bit= s. >>> Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the system would retain the c= ontent of its memory >>> without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually capable movin= g data from one >>> point to another, albeit, not all that much data. >>> Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it wit= h a gasoline or >>> diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-8. =C2= =A0=C2=A0If that were the case, >>> the machine could actually process the data in its memory while it was mo= ving down the >>> road...something a station wagon full of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't = be able to do. > To which David Barto replied: > >> Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable computer? >> Runs, dodging and weaving. > I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model 33-ASR Teletype in the pas= senger seat of > the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from its stand, it might be = able to sit on the > seat, and be powered by the same generator that runs the Straight-8. The = Straight-8 came with a 110-baud current-loop serial I/O interface, so it'd ju= st be a matter of cabling it up to the Teletype. > > It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd = be far worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/. But, once sto= pped somewhere pleasant, you could > actually develop programs using the punched tape reader/punch on the 33ASR.= It'd definitely be > an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek). > --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============0543325741914727579==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 03:35:42 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 04:35:28 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0041038914123698070==" --===============0041038914123698070== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 10:57 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek). > > The original Osborne 1 had a 12V power input! Actually it's +12.6V and +5.6V and you have to supply both voltages. It's one diode drop to the +5V (logic supply) and +12V (DRAM, disk motors, monitor supply), the -5V for the DRAM is produced on the logic board. I am told it was never used and that the Osborne battery pack came with an inverter to provide 110V AC. -tony --===============0041038914123698070==-- From julf@julf.com Mon Jun 5 06:43:32 2023 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 08:43:31 +0200 Message-ID: <172676d5-ef7d-9666-ae20-dee66a3021d3@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0616592318490474325==" --===============0616592318490474325== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/06/2023 00:37, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > Eh, this engineer strongly prefers a _practical_ car. That is why we have a Toyota Avensis station wagon - one of the last ones made. Never sold in the US. Unfortunately the successor (Camry) wich I liked because it has a linux-based entertainment system, doesn't seem to come in a station wagon variant. Julf --===============0616592318490474325==-- From robotguy@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 18:19:31 2023 From: robotguy@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 18:19:26 +0000 Message-ID: <168598916670.1516385.3754228109115453860@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1878122139861264649==" --===============1878122139861264649== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For various reasons (including, but not limited to, insanity and obsessivenes= s*) I am building a diode laser based tape punch. It's not specifically for a= classic comp, but I'd like to stick with standard format so that it'd be use= ful for making custom tapes for members in the future. I will probably need t= o make dozens of tapes so using actual, vintage rolls is out of the question.= Does anyone know if 1" tape is used for anything else and where I might find= some new? Otherwise I may have to add paper-slitter to my project list and m= ake my own. *I've had the idea of a lost-media ARG stuck in my head for years. --===============1878122139861264649==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 19:29:21 2023 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 15:29:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <168598916670.1516385.3754228109115453860@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5985372711563075423==" --===============5985372711563075423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is an awesome idea, please make it. How great would it be to load a receipt-paper roll (made of heavier stock of course), lase the holes and pass the paper over a vacuum slot to suck the chads. I was trying to come up with a mostly 3d-printable, cam-driven punch myself but of course it will never get done. Happy to provide any hardware/embedded help if wanted! -- Anders Nelson On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 2:19 PM Robotguy via cctalk wrote: > For various reasons (including, but not limited to, insanity and > obsessiveness*) I am building a diode laser based tape punch. It's not > specifically for a classic comp, but I'd like to stick with standard format > so that it'd be useful for making custom tapes for members in the future. I > will probably need to make dozens of tapes so using actual, vintage rolls > is out of the question. Does anyone know if 1" tape is used for anything > else and where I might find some new? Otherwise I may have to add > paper-slitter to my project list and make my own. > > > > > *I've had the idea of a lost-media ARG stuck in my head for years. > --===============5985372711563075423==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Jun 5 19:58:36 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 19:58:28 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0403494196167929879==" --===============0403494196167929879== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is this for ideas=E2=80=A6 https://www.instructables.com/DIY-Paper-TapePunch-Card-Maker-and-Reader/ Sent from my iPhone On Jun 5, 2023, at 12:29, Anders Nelson via cctalk = wrote: =EF=BB=BFThis is an awesome idea, please make it. How great would it be to lo= ad a receipt-paper roll (made of heavier stock of course), lase the holes and pass the paper over a vacuum slot to suck the chads. I was trying to come up with a mostly 3d-printable, cam-driven punch myself but of course it will never get done. Happy to provide any hardware/embedded help if wanted! -- Anders Nelson On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 2:19=E2=80=AFPM Robotguy via cctalk wrote: For various reasons (including, but not limited to, insanity and obsessiveness*) I am building a diode laser based tape punch. It's not specifically for a classic comp, but I'd like to stick with standard format so that it'd be useful for making custom tapes for members in the future. I will probably need to make dozens of tapes so using actual, vintage rolls is out of the question. Does anyone know if 1" tape is used for anything else and where I might find some new? Otherwise I may have to add paper-slitter to my project list and make my own. *I've had the idea of a lost-media ARG stuck in my head for years. --===============0403494196167929879==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 20:25:02 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 21:24:46 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM5PR1001MB21857C016DA9EB9F6497816BE44DA=40DM5PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2185=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6329767400174231085==" --===============6329767400174231085== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The perforations might be a problem but could this work ? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324481731229 On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 8:58=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > There is this for ideas=E2=80=A6 > > https://www.instructables.com/DIY-Paper-TapePunch-Card-Maker-and-Reader/ > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 5, 2023, at 12:29, Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: > > =EF=BB=BFThis is an awesome idea, please make it. How great would it be to = load a > receipt-paper roll (made of heavier stock of course), lase the holes and > pass the paper over a vacuum slot to suck the chads. > > I was trying to come up with a mostly 3d-printable, cam-driven punch myself > but of course it will never get done. > > Happy to provide any hardware/embedded help if wanted! > > -- > Anders Nelson > > > On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 2:19=E2=80=AFPM Robotguy via cctalk > wrote: > > For various reasons (including, but not limited to, insanity and > obsessiveness*) I am building a diode laser based tape punch. It's not > specifically for a classic comp, but I'd like to stick with standard format > so that it'd be useful for making custom tapes for members in the future. I > will probably need to make dozens of tapes so using actual, vintage rolls > is out of the question. Does anyone know if 1" tape is used for anything > else and where I might find some new? Otherwise I may have to add > paper-slitter to my project list and make my own. > > > > > *I've had the idea of a lost-media ARG stuck in my head for years. > > --===============6329767400174231085==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Mon Jun 5 20:39:55 2023 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 16:38:54 -0400 Message-ID: <058b01d997ed$bf60b650$3e2222f0$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <168598916670.1516385.3754228109115453860@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1892410867575793748==" --===============1892410867575793748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to the estate of a "silent key" I have more paper tape than I will eve= r use. If you are interested, let me know and I will sell you a couple of ro= lls. I have both beige and black. Bill Sudbrink -----Original Message----- From: Robotguy via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: Monday, June 05, 2023 2:19 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: robotguy(a)gmail.com Subject: [cctalk] Source for NEW (unused) punch tape For various reasons (including, but not limited to, insanity and obsessivenes= s*) I am building a diode laser based tape punch. It's not specifically for a= classic comp, but I'd like to stick with standard format so that it'd be use= ful for making custom tapes for members in the future. I will probably need t= o make dozens of tapes so using actual, vintage rolls is out of the question.= Does anyone know if 1" tape is used for anything else and where I might find= some new? Otherwise I may have to add paper-slitter to my project list and m= ake my own. *I've had the idea of a lost-media ARG stuck in my head for years. --=20 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============1892410867575793748==-- From r_a_feldman@hotmail.com Mon Jun 5 20:43:23 2023 From: Robert Feldman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 20:43:16 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5312959639701019635==" --===============5312959639701019635== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Message: 21 >Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 04:35:28 +0100 >From: Tony Duell >Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. > >On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 10:57=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> >> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: <> > an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek). >> >> The original Osborne 1 had a 12V power input! > >Actually it's +12.6V and +5.6V and you have to supply both voltages. >It's one diode drop to the +5V (logic supply) and +12V (DRAM, disk >motors, monitor supply), the -5V for the DRAM is produced on the logic >board. > >I am told it was never used and that the Osborne battery pack came >with an inverter to provide 110V AC. > >-tony It (the Osborne Powr-Pac (tm) ) has a what the manual says is a DC-DC inverte= r that plugged into a Gould lead-acid battery (or the cigarette-lighter socke= t in a car) at one end and the AC input of the Osborne 1 at the other. I have= read on this list that Lee denies that OCC ever sold them, but I have one th= at I bought for $50 at Compumat in Chicago on October 10, 1983 -- I still hav= e the unit, receipt, and User Registration card. It came with a glossy-printe= d grey-and-blue manual, like other contemporary OCC products. If anyone wants a copy, I can email you a PDF scan of the user manual. Bob --===============5312959639701019635==-- From john@jfloren.net Tue Jun 6 02:42:12 2023 From: John Floren To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 02:41:56 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV2PR12MB57270563E3FA3B9A770C758DB54DA=40LV2PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5727=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0139951956055104305==" --===============0139951956055104305== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, June 5th, 2023 at 1:43 PM, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > >Message: 21 >=20 > > Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 04:35:28 +0100 > > From: Tony Duell ard.p850ug1(a)gmail.com > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. > >=20 > > On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 10:57=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org wrote: > >=20 > > > On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: >=20 > <> > an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek). >=20 > > > The original Osborne 1 had a 12V power input! > >=20 > > Actually it's +12.6V and +5.6V and you have to supply both voltages. > > It's one diode drop to the +5V (logic supply) and +12V (DRAM, disk > > motors, monitor supply), the -5V for the DRAM is produced on the logic > > board. > >=20 > > I am told it was never used and that the Osborne battery pack came > > with an inverter to provide 110V AC. > >=20 > > -tony >=20 >=20 > It (the Osborne Powr-Pac (tm) ) has a what the manual says is a DC-DC inver= ter that plugged into a Gould lead-acid battery (or the cigarette-lighter soc= ket in a car) at one end and the AC input of the Osborne 1 at the other. I ha= ve read on this list that Lee denies that OCC ever sold them, but I have one = that I bought for $50 at Compumat in Chicago on October 10, 1983 -- I still h= ave the unit, receipt, and User Registration card. It came with a glossy-prin= ted grey-and-blue manual, like other contemporary OCC products. >=20 > If anyone wants a copy, I can email you a PDF scan of the user manual. >=20 > Bob It's funny that luggable power packs come up here as I'm trying to revive my = Otrona Attache... The power supply does nothing on AC input, even after a rec= apping, so I thought I'd investigate the "DC Power Option" described in the m= anual. Unfortunately I can't find any record that Otrona ever actually *sold*= a "DC Power Option", which would plug into an unpopulated 6-pin Molex connec= tor on the back of the device. Interestingly, the header inside the power sup= ply labeled "DC Option" is a 7-pin header, so I'm not sure which pin was "opt= ional" for the external connector! I'd just replace the power supply wholesale with a little ATX supply or somet= hing, but the machine needs 5V, 12V, -12V, and 15V; the latter is used to pow= er the CRT and represents a real challenge! I've yet to find anything that ou= tputs all 4 levels at a reasonable price. john --===============0139951956055104305==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 03:42:30 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 04:42:16 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CFWJOKhHD3gSD8Tfv72zYXqUYf1XJVWdH1T6rvLZlJJLbY=5FJD?= =?utf-8?q?=5FJ1wYB29RJzOrkDmizIvgQskeQDXskcrLaa6h4Fx0oOd7wg4BHDZjzOldrs=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40jfloren=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2662815785642624755==" --===============2662815785642624755== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 3:42=E2=80=AFAM John Floren via cctalk wrote: > It's funny that luggable power packs come up here as I'm trying to revive m= y Otrona Attache... The power supply does nothing on AC input, even after a r= ecapping, so I thought I'd investigate the "DC Power Option" described in the= manual. Unfortunately I can't find any record that Otrona ever actually *sol= d* a "DC Power Option", which would plug into an unpopulated 6-pin Molex conn= ector on the back of the device. Interestingly, the header inside the power s= upply labeled "DC Option" is a 7-pin header, so I'm not sure which pin was "o= ptional" for the external connector! > > I'd just replace the power supply wholesale with a little ATX supply or som= ething, but the machine needs 5V, 12V, -12V, and 15V; the latter is used to p= ower the CRT and represents a real challenge! I've yet to find anything that = outputs all 4 levels at a reasonable price. I consider the PSU to be as much a part of the original design as any other part of the machine and like to keep them original. The schematic for the power supply is in the technical manual. It appears there's a startup supply using the mains-frequency transformer T1 as well as the SMPSU part. If that's missing then I'd suspect something around the mains input side. I assume the fuse is good! The power switch is a little odd in that it uses the triac Q1 to switch the mains, controlled by the user switch. Maybe check round that area. -tony --===============2662815785642624755==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Tue Jun 6 05:37:12 2023 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 22:28:26 -0700 Message-ID: <00d801d99837$bbdc4ae0$3394e0a0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7975251008352361945==" --===============7975251008352361945== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi: =20 Doing some research for historical purposed =E2=80=93 no litigation at all = =E2=80=93 trying to identify the first =E2=80=9Clegal=E2=80=9D PC-DOS compati= ble PC, =E2=80=9Clegal=E2=80=9D in the sense that it=E2=80=99s BIOS was not a= copy of an IBM BIOS. Eagle gets the honor of being first MS-DOS compatible = and getting sued for copying IBM=E2=80=99s BIOS =F0=9F=98=8A =20 The Compaq Portable which shipped in November 1982 is generally credited with= the first legal MS-DOS compatible PC. AFAIK it could not run PC-DOS and tho= se applications which depended upon certain IBM BIOS commands would fail. =20 The first =E2=80=9Clegal=E2=80=9D BIOS is generally considered to be from Pho= enix which was announced in May 1984 and so far I have been unable to determi= ne its first system deployments. FWIW Wikipedia points to HP, Tandy and AT&T= as some time adopters of a Phoenix BIOS but my research so far is that Tandy= =E2=80=99s T1000 family announced in October and November of 1984 was the fir= st system to be PC-DOS compatible and it did not use a Phoenix BIOS! Such PC= -DOS compatible HP and AT&T systems were much later and the Tandy BIOS was wr= itten by programmers of Tandon Corporation, the OEM supplier of the first Tan= dy T1000s. =20 Can anyone identify a PC-DOS compatible PC announced earlier than October 198= 4? Citations would be greatly appreciated. =20 Thanks =20 Tom --===============7975251008352361945==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jun 6 06:03:41 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 23:03:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00d801d99837$bbdc4ae0$3394e0a0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4342243721674197847==" --===============4342243721674197847== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/5/23 22:28, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone identify a PC-DOS compatible PC announced earlier than October 1= 984? Citations would be greatly appreciated. That's a tricky one,I think. For example, if a single programmer read the IBM PC BIOS listing (or even disassembled it) and then wrote a new one from scratch, that derivative BIOS in the view of the IBM legal beagles would not have been legal. If, on the other hand, the same programmer never saw any of the code, but read the API description and wrote a BIOS, that would be legal. Both ERSO and Phoenix resorted to a "clean room" method where one team read the PC BIOS and wrote a description, which served as a specification for a derivative BIOS. I think that the descriptions were cleaned up a bit and published as the Phoenix BIOS books. But I think the first "clean room BIOS" was in the Columbia MPC-1600, June 1982. --Chuck --===============4342243721674197847==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 11:25:22 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 07:25:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0475664273748054056==" --===============0475664273748054056== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There were a articles in the more technical journal-type mags 1981/82 that discussed porting IBM DOS to non IBM 8088 systems that go into the mechanics of it. DOS v 1.25 was the OEM version for the early ports. *indirectly* from these you might find references to IBM BIOS porting and who did it, there. I have only print copies no scans. Bill On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 2:03 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/5/23 22:28, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > > Can anyone identify a PC-DOS compatible PC announced earlier than > October 1984? Citations would be greatly appreciated. > > That's a tricky one,I think. For example, if a single programmer read > the IBM PC BIOS listing (or even disassembled it) and then wrote a new > one from scratch, that derivative BIOS in the view of the IBM legal > beagles would not have been legal. > > If, on the other hand, the same programmer never saw any of the code, > but read the API description and wrote a BIOS, that would be legal. > > Both ERSO and Phoenix resorted to a "clean room" method where one team > read the PC BIOS and wrote a description, which served as a > specification for a derivative BIOS. I think that the descriptions were > cleaned up a bit and published as the Phoenix BIOS books. > > But I think the first "clean room BIOS" was in the Columbia MPC-1600, > June 1982. > > --Chuck > > > --===============0475664273748054056==-- From db@db.net Tue Jun 6 13:09:09 2023 From: db To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 08:58:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00d801d99837$bbdc4ae0$3394e0a0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4667485202289352360==" --===============4667485202289352360== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 05, 2023 at 10:28:26PM -0700, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Hi: >=20 > =20 >=20 > Doing some research for historical purposed =E2=80=93 no litigation at all = =E2=80=93 trying to identify the first =E2=80=9Clegal=E2=80=9D PC-DOS compati= ble PC, =E2=80=9Clegal=E2=80=9D in the sense that it=E2=80=99s BIOS was not a= copy of an IBM BIOS. Eagle gets the honor of being first MS-DOS compatible = and getting sued for copying IBM=E2=80=99s BIOS =F0=9F=98=8A >=20 > =20 >=20 > The Compaq Portable which shipped in November 1982 is generally credited wi= th the first legal MS-DOS compatible PC. AFAIK it could not run PC-DOS and t= hose applications which depended upon certain IBM BIOS commands would fail. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The first =E2=80=9Clegal=E2=80=9D BIOS is generally considered to be from P= hoenix which was announced in May 1984 and so far I have been unable to deter= mine its first system deployments. FWIW Wikipedia points to HP, Tandy and AT= &T as some time adopters of a Phoenix BIOS but my research so far is that Tan= dy=E2=80=99s T1000 family announced in October and November of 1984 was the f= irst system to be PC-DOS compatible and it did not use a Phoenix BIOS! Such = PC-DOS compatible HP and AT&T systems were much later and the Tandy BIOS was = written by programmers of Tandon Corporation, the OEM supplier of the first T= andy T1000s. >=20 > =20 FWIW I worked at a company here in Ottawa. Dynalogic. We produced a IBM look alike which had a BIOS not copied from the original IBM PC. In fact we used different UARTs and graphics card. Although I was not on the Bios team Don Bailey was. http://www.sce.carleton.ca/faculty/bailey/bailey_bio.shtml https://museum.eecs.yorku.ca/collections/show/7 >=20 > Can anyone identify a PC-DOS compatible PC announced earlier than October 1= 984? Citations would be greatly appreciated. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Thanks >=20 > =20 >=20 > Tom >=20 >=20 --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https:/@Octodon.social/@Di= anora --===============4667485202289352360==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jun 6 14:22:38 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 07:22:21 -0700 Message-ID: <86d76a59-445d-c3f7-d599-c9ca03a2efde@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8522811214338797924==" --===============8522811214338797924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/6/23 04:25, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > There were a articles in the more technical journal-type mags 1981/82 that > discussed porting IBM DOS to non IBM 8088 systems that go into the > mechanics of it. DOS v 1.25 was the OEM version for the early ports. > *indirectly* from these you might find references to IBM BIOS porting and > who did it, there. I have only print copies no scans. I was there, doing just that. Initially, we at Durango didn't think that strict 5150 compatibility at the BIOS level was necessary for the Poppy. In fact, as OEMs, DOS 1.25 was delivered with only a sample IO.SYS meant as a "skeleton". MS-DOS text mode, like CP/M, was considered to be good enough. In fact, MSDOS was never intended to be the ultimate target, but rather an interim goal as we waited for Intel to complete the kernel for Xenix on the 80286. Right from the first unit, we had sockets for both the 80186 and the 80286. Console I/O was done via serial connection. It's a shame that few know about the early 80286 systems. --Chuck --===============8522811214338797924==-- From js@cimmeri.com Tue Jun 6 15:08:53 2023 From: js@cimmeri.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 11:08:23 -0400 Message-ID: <6b44eba8-deda-88a0-2bc4-f9bee70f37c0@cimmeri.com> In-Reply-To: <86d76a59-445d-c3f7-d599-c9ca03a2efde@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8729557663485453978==" --===============8729557663485453978== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/6/2023 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/6/23 04:25, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> There were a articles in the more technical journal-type mags 1981/82 that >> discussed porting IBM DOS to non IBM 8088 systems that go into the >> mechanics of it. DOS v 1.25 was the OEM version for the early ports. >> *indirectly* from these you might find references to IBM BIOS porting and >> who did it, there. I have only print copies no scans. > I was there, doing just that. Initially, we at Durango didn't think > that strict 5150 compatibility at the BIOS level was necessary for the > Poppy. In fact, as OEMs, DOS 1.25 was delivered with only a sample > IO.SYS meant as a "skeleton". MS-DOS text mode, like CP/M, was > considered to be good enough. > > In fact, MSDOS was never intended to be the ultimate target, but rather > an interim goal as we waited for Intel to complete the kernel for Xenix > on the 80286. Right from the first unit, we had sockets for both the > 80186 and the 80286. Console I/O was done via serial connection. > > It's a shame that few know about the early 80286 systems. > > --Chuck As much as these writings are appreciated, I often find myself frustration by the assumption that the audience knows everything you're talking about.   Just what are you talking about?   I searched this entire thread for mentions of "Poppy" and "Durango" and these words don't occur before.   What is Poppy and Durango?    Not everyone was "there" and knows what you're talking about --===============8729557663485453978==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 15:37:30 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 11:37:12 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6b44eba8-deda-88a0-2bc4-f9bee70f37c0@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8272370274853898786==" --===============8272370274853898786== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck mentioned he world at Durango and there was a Poppy computer. I quick Google search turned up a mention here: https://www.nytimes.com/1983/11/30/business/sperry-introduces-personal-comput= er.html "Still later, they designed a 80186/80286 based 16-bit system, the Durango "Poppy"; MS-DOS was selected as the entry operating system." It didn't take much to find that. The Sperry PC or the Zenith H-150 might have been early Phoenix customers if the first Phoenix BIOS was released in May 1984. That said, it is not exactly the answer to the topic title as there were a few manufacturer's like Dynalogic that had a decent amount of DOS compatibility already. Santo On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 11:08=E2=80=AFAM js--- via cctalk wrote: > On 6/6/2023 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/6/23 04:25, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > >> There were a articles in the more technical journal-type mags 1981/82 > that > >> discussed porting IBM DOS to non IBM 8088 systems that go into the > >> mechanics of it. DOS v 1.25 was the OEM version for the early ports. > >> *indirectly* from these you might find references to IBM BIOS porting > and > >> who did it, there. I have only print copies no scans. > > I was there, doing just that. Initially, we at Durango didn't think > > that strict 5150 compatibility at the BIOS level was necessary for the > > Poppy. In fact, as OEMs, DOS 1.25 was delivered with only a sample > > IO.SYS meant as a "skeleton". MS-DOS text mode, like CP/M, was > > considered to be good enough. > > > > In fact, MSDOS was never intended to be the ultimate target, but rather > > an interim goal as we waited for Intel to complete the kernel for Xenix > > on the 80286. Right from the first unit, we had sockets for both the > > 80186 and the 80286. Console I/O was done via serial connection. > > > > It's a shame that few know about the early 80286 systems. > > > > --Chuck > > > As much as these writings are appreciated, I often find myself > frustration by the assumption that the audience knows everything you're > talking about. Just what are you talking about? I searched this > entire thread for mentions of "Poppy" and "Durango" and these words > don't occur before. What is Poppy and Durango? Not everyone was > "there" and knows what you're talking about > > > > --===============8272370274853898786==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jun 6 16:14:27 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 09:14:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6b44eba8-deda-88a0-2bc4-f9bee70f37c0@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3266654961174047613==" --===============3266654961174047613== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/6/23 08:08, js--- via cctalk wrote: >>=20 > As much as these writings are appreciated, I often find myself > frustration by the assumption that the audience knows everything you're > talking about.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just what are you talking about?=C2=A0=C2=A0 I s= earched this > entire thread for mentions of "Poppy" and "Durango" and these words > don't occur before.=C2=A0=C2=A0 What is Poppy and Durango?=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Not everyone was > "there" and knows what you're talking about That's funny--I typed in "Durango Poppy Computer" into my Google search bar and this was the first hit: https://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/998/retro-scan-of-the-wee= k-the-poppy-computer --Chuck --===============3266654961174047613==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue Jun 6 17:12:19 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 12:12:04 -0500 Message-ID: <2d68d0b1-b88b-3eb5-e951-c6cad9197f29@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <86d76a59-445d-c3f7-d599-c9ca03a2efde@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4053027631884278725==" --===============4053027631884278725== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I remember running SCO Xenix on a generic 286 with 1MB main RAM and an Intel Above Board with 4MB of RAM.  The Above Board board cost $4000 with the 4MB of RAM on it at the time. The Above Board was populated with 256K x 1 DRAMS so it had 128 chips on it.   64 on the main board and 64 on a daughter board. Now a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W has a lowly 512MB On 6/6/2023 9:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/6/23 04:25, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> There were a articles in the more technical journal-type mags 1981/82 that >> discussed porting IBM DOS to non IBM 8088 systems that go into the >> mechanics of it. DOS v 1.25 was the OEM version for the early ports. >> *indirectly* from these you might find references to IBM BIOS porting and >> who did it, there. I have only print copies no scans. > I was there, doing just that. Initially, we at Durango didn't think > that strict 5150 compatibility at the BIOS level was necessary for the > Poppy. In fact, as OEMs, DOS 1.25 was delivered with only a sample > IO.SYS meant as a "skeleton". MS-DOS text mode, like CP/M, was > considered to be good enough. > > In fact, MSDOS was never intended to be the ultimate target, but rather > an interim goal as we waited for Intel to complete the kernel for Xenix > on the 80286. Right from the first unit, we had sockets for both the > 80186 and the 80286. Console I/O was done via serial connection. > > It's a shame that few know about the early 80286 systems. > > --Chuck > > --===============4053027631884278725==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Tue Jun 6 17:23:25 2023 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 10:22:49 -0700 Message-ID: <016f01d9989b$882eedb0$988cc910$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3593112005102122776==" --===============3593112005102122776== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks but I'm pretty sure the Hyperion was not PC-DOS compatible. Wikipedia says,=20 "However, incompatibility with the IBM PC was a concern for buyers, since man= y programs of the time made direct calls to the system ROM, and the video dis= play and serial port used different integrated circuits than the IBM PC." =20 FWIW I remember as a PC clone user in the 1980s and into the 1990s acquiring = machines that only ran PC-DOS and only using PC-DOS up to and including at le= ast version 5. =20 Tom =20 -----Original Message----- From: db =20 Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2023 5:58 AM To: t.gardner(a)computer.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Post= s Cc: Tom Gardner Subject: Re: [cctalk] First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC =20 On Mon, Jun 05, 2023 at 10:28:26PM -0700, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Hi: >=20 > =20 >=20 > Doing some research for historical purposed no litigation at all trying= to identify the first legal PC-DOS compatible PC, legal in the sense tha= t it s BIOS was not a copy of an IBM BIOS. Eagle gets the honor of being fir= st MS-DOS compatible and getting sued for copying IBM s BIOS ?? >=20 > =20 >=20 > The Compaq Portable which shipped in November 1982 is generally credited wi= th the first legal MS-DOS compatible PC. AFAIK it could not run PC-DOS and t= hose applications which depended upon certain IBM BIOS commands would fail. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The first legal BIOS is generally considered to be from Phoenix which was= announced in May 1984 and so far I have been unable to determine its first s= ystem deployments. FWIW Wikipedia points to HP, Tandy and AT&T as some time = adopters of a Phoenix BIOS but my research so far is that Tandy s T1000 famil= y announced in October and November of 1984 was the first system to be PC-DOS= compatible and it did not use a Phoenix BIOS! Such PC-DOS compatible HP and= AT&T systems were much later and the Tandy BIOS was written by programmers o= f Tandon Corporation, the OEM supplier of the first Tandy T1000s. >=20 > =20 =20 FWIW I worked at a company here in Ottawa. Dynalogic. We produced a IBM look = alike which had a BIOS not copied from the original IBM PC. In fact we used different UARTs and graphics card. =20 Although I was not on the Bios team Don Bailey was. =20 http://www.sce.= carleton.ca/faculty/bailey/bailey_bio.shtml =20 https://museum.eecs.yorku.= ca/collections/show/7 =20 >=20 > Can anyone identify a PC-DOS compatible PC announced earlier than October 1= 984? Citations would be greatly appreciated. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Thanks >=20 > =20 >=20 > Tom >=20 >=20 =20 -- db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net= http://www.db.net/~db https:/@Octodon.social/@Diano= ra --===============3593112005102122776==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 17:54:17 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 13:54:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <016f01d9989b$882eedb0$988cc910$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3439477235486288560==" --===============3439477235486288560== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 1:23=E2=80=AFPM Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Thanks but I'm pretty sure the Hyperion was not PC-DOS compatible. > I don't want to get off-topic here but the Dynalogic Hyperion is MS-DOS compatible. I do have one or two of them. I have run up to MS-DOS 5.0 on it as well as the Hyperion branded MS-DOS 2.11. There are some extra configuration commands in that particular version. I have only tried PC-DOS 3.3 on this but not other versions and it works okay. There are varying degrees of MS-DOS compatibility. It is NOT one of the few early computers that ran a customized version of MS-DOS 1.25 and could only run that. Those had horrible compatibility. Without those specific boot disks, the computer will not run. I have an STM Personal computer that is like this and I don't have the correct MS-DOS 1.25 for it to boot. It's a paperweight without it, unfortunately. Saying that, the Hyperion is not 100% MS-DOS compatible but it is relatively high. Dynalogic used to have compatibility lists of out-of-the-box MS-DOS software that would run without issues. You can see an example here: https://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Dynalogic%20Hyperion/compatibility/Hyperion-= Tested-Software-February-1984.pdf Now, if you stated, "100% PC-DOS compatible", then you would be accurate. Santo > FWIW I remember as a PC clone user in the 1980s and into the 1990s > acquiring machines that only ran PC-DOS and only using PC-DOS up to and > including at least version 5. > > > > Tom > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: db > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2023 5:58 AM > To: t.gardner(a)computer.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Cc: Tom Gardner > Subject: Re: [cctalk] First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC > > > > On Mon, Jun 05, 2023 at 10:28:26PM -0700, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > > Hi: > > > > > > > > > > > > Doing some research for historical purposed no litigation at all > trying to identify the first legal PC-DOS compatible PC, legal in the > sense that it s BIOS was not a copy of an IBM BIOS. Eagle gets the honor > of being first MS-DOS compatible and getting sued for copying IBM s BIOS ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > The Compaq Portable which shipped in November 1982 is generally credited > with the first legal MS-DOS compatible PC. AFAIK it could not run PC-DOS > and those applications which depended upon certain IBM BIOS commands would > fail. > > > > > > > > > > > > The first legal BIOS is generally considered to be from Phoenix which > was announced in May 1984 and so far I have been unable to determine its > first system deployments. FWIW Wikipedia points to HP, Tandy and AT&T as > some time adopters of a Phoenix BIOS but my research so far is that Tandy s > T1000 family announced in October and November of 1984 was the first system > to be PC-DOS compatible and it did not use a Phoenix BIOS! Such PC-DOS > compatible HP and AT&T systems were much later and the Tandy BIOS was > written by programmers of Tandon Corporation, the OEM supplier of the first > Tandy T1000s. > > > > > > > > > > FWIW I worked at a company here in Ottawa. Dynalogic. We produced a IBM > look alike which had a BIOS not copied from the original IBM PC. > > In fact we used different UARTs and graphics card. > > > > Although I was not on the Bios team Don Bailey was. > > > > > http://www.sce.carleton.ca/faculty/bailey/bailey_bio.shtml > > > > > https://museum.eecs.yorku.ca/collections/show/7 > > > > > > > > Can anyone identify a PC-DOS compatible PC announced earlier than > October 1984? Citations would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > -- > > db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.n= et < > http://www.db.net/~db> http://www.db.net/~db > https:/@Octodon.social/@Dianora > > --===============3439477235486288560==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Tue Jun 6 17:55:41 2023 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 10:55:05 -0700 Message-ID: <019901d998a0$0a6ac8e0$1f405aa0$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4365278674292937298==" --===============4365278674292937298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck: Thanks but AFAICT the Columbia MPC-1600 was not PC-DOS compatible =20 MS-DOS and PC-DOS Because PC-DOS and MS-DOS share the same origins, the quest for a compatible = operating system isn=E2=80=99t formidable. To successfully emulate PC-DOS, we= at Columbia Data Products (CDP) provided a second BIOS and modified the MS-D= OS source code. MS-DOS requires its own BIOS to provide a well-defined interf= ace between the operating system and the hardware and peripherals. On the PC = or a compatible, however, the PC MS-DOS BIOS uses the ROM BIOS and its existi= ng low-level drivers. Therefore, the machine independent part of MS-DOS resid= es in RAM with the tailored MS-DOS BIOS. The resulting operating system behav= es like PC-DOS. Because the same level of documentation is not made available= for the PC-DOS BIOS Technical Aspects of IBM PC Compatibility Byte November 1983 This article was written by staffers at Columbia Data Products Inc. https://archive.org/stream/byte-magazine-1983-11/1983_11_BYTE_08-11_Inside_th= e_IBM_PC#page/n249/mode/2up=20 =20 Apparently Columbia like Compaq did independently develop their BIOS but with= the objective of MS-DOS compatibility and a I think a proprietary version th= ereof. And the article referenced says they both did a very good job This is also confirmed at History - Who were the first engineers to "cleanroom" the IBM PC BIOS? - Retrocomputing = Stack Exchange =20 I seem to recall the critical tests were some games that made extensive use o= f the IBM PC video BIOS calls. =20 Still looks like Phoenix or Tandon as the first with a PC-DOS compatible BIOS =20 Tom =20 -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis =20 Sent: Monday, June 05, 2023 11:03 PM To: Tom Gardner via cctalk Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC =20 On 6/5/23 22:28, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: =20 > Can anyone identify a PC-DOS compatible PC announced earlier than October 1= 984? Citations would be greatly appreciated. =20 That's a tricky one,I think. For example, if a single programmer read the IBM= PC BIOS listing (or even disassembled it) and then wrote a new one from scra= tch, that derivative BIOS in the view of the IBM legal beagles would not have= been legal. =20 If, on the other hand, the same programmer never saw any of the code, but rea= d the API description and wrote a BIOS, that would be legal. =20 Both ERSO and Phoenix resorted to a "clean room" method where one team read t= he PC BIOS and wrote a description, which served as a specification for a der= ivative BIOS. I think that the descriptions were cleaned up a bit and publis= hed as the Phoenix BIOS books. =20 But I think the first "clean room BIOS" was in the Columbia MPC-1600, June 19= 82. =20 --Chuck =20 =20 --===============4365278674292937298==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jun 6 17:59:37 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 10:59:26 -0700 Message-ID: <68fd9f27-9d8f-93e9-24da-c4c1eeb9c110@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <016f01d9989b$882eedb0$988cc910$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0432027976886603357==" --===============0432027976886603357== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/6/23 10:22, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Thanks but I'm pretty sure the Hyperion was not PC-DOS compatible. We have to be careful when tossing around the term "PC-DOS compatible". In particular, I'm reminded of a dodge used by Bill Godbout and his Compupro S-100 8086 and 8088 products. Early on, users wanted to be able to run MS-DOS programs. Microsoft, however, wanted an arm and a leg for the MS-DOS 1.x OEM kit--IIRC, around $50K. At the time, one could buy the pink-binder PC-DOS for about $40. So Compupro users wanting to run MS/PC-DOS were instructed to purchase the IBM-branded PC-DOS and Compupro supplied a substitute IBMBIO.COM file with instructions on how to create the hybrid. I don't know if this ever made it to 2.0, but it worked back then. Bottom-line, I'd rephrase that as "IBM 5150-compatible". --Chuck --===============0432027976886603357==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Tue Jun 6 18:42:51 2023 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 11:33:54 -0700 Message-ID: <01ac01d998a5$76387ea0$62a97be0$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5763744719466598720==" --===============5763744719466598720== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May I suggest compatibility is like pregnancy =E2=80=93 you either are or you= are not. =20 Hyperion never purported to be PC-DOS compatible and as noted it wasn=E2=80= =99t even offered as generic MS-DOS compatible. Just because it runs PC-DOS = 3.3 and some applications doesn=E2=80=99t establish that it was PC-DOS compat= ible =E2=80=93 meaning 100% compatible =F0=9F=98=8A =20 Tom=20 =20 =20 From: Santo Nucifora =20 Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2023 10:54 AM To: t.gardner(a)computer.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Post= s Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC =20 On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 1:23=E2=80=AFPM Tom Gardner via cctalk > wrote: Thanks but I'm pretty sure the Hyperion was not PC-DOS compatible. =20 I don't want to get off-topic here but the Dynalogic Hyperion is MS-DOS compa= tible. I do have one or two of them. =20 I have run up to MS-DOS 5.0 on it as well as the Hyperion branded MS-DOS 2.11= . There are some extra configuration commands in that particular version. I= have only tried PC-DOS 3.3 on this but not other versions and it works okay.= There are varying degrees of MS-DOS compatibility. It is NOT one of the few= early computers that ran a customized version of MS-DOS 1.25 and could only = run that. Those had horrible compatibility. Without those specific boot dis= ks, the computer will not run. I have an STM Personal computer that is like = this and I don't have the correct MS-DOS 1.25 for it to boot. It's a paperw= eight without it, unfortunately. =20 Saying that, the Hyperion is not 100% MS-DOS compatible but it is relatively = high. Dynalogic used to have compatibility lists of out-of-the-box MS-DOS so= ftware that would run without issues. You can see an example here: https://vi= ntagecomputer.ca/files/Dynalogic%20Hyperion/compatibility/Hyperion-Tested-Sof= tware-February-1984.pdf =20 Now, if you stated, "100% PC-DOS compatible", then you would be accurate. =20 =20 Santo =20 =20 =20 =20 FWIW I remember as a PC clone user in the 1980s and into the 1990s acquiring = machines that only ran PC-DOS and only using PC-DOS up to and including at le= ast version 5. Tom -----Original Message----- From: db >=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2023 5:58 AM To: t.gardner(a)computer.org ; General Disc= ussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Tom Gardner > Subject: Re: [cctalk] First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC On Mon, Jun 05, 2023 at 10:28:26PM -0700, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Hi: >=20 > =20 >=20 > Doing some research for historical purposed no litigation at all trying= to identify the first legal PC-DOS compatible PC, legal in the sense tha= t it s BIOS was not a copy of an IBM BIOS. Eagle gets the honor of being fir= st MS-DOS compatible and getting sued for copying IBM s BIOS ?? >=20 > =20 >=20 > The Compaq Portable which shipped in November 1982 is generally credited wi= th the first legal MS-DOS compatible PC. AFAIK it could not run PC-DOS and t= hose applications which depended upon certain IBM BIOS commands would fail. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The first legal BIOS is generally considered to be from Phoenix which was= announced in May 1984 and so far I have been unable to determine its first s= ystem deployments. FWIW Wikipedia points to HP, Tandy and AT&T as some time = adopters of a Phoenix BIOS but my research so far is that Tandy s T1000 famil= y announced in October and November of 1984 was the first system to be PC-DOS= compatible and it did not use a Phoenix BIOS! Such PC-DOS compatible HP and= AT&T systems were much later and the Tandy BIOS was written by programmers o= f Tandon Corporation, the OEM supplier of the first Tandy T1000s. >=20 > =20 FWIW I worked at a company here in Ottawa. Dynalogic. We produced a IBM look = alike which had a BIOS not copied from the original IBM PC. In fact we used different UARTs and graphics card. Although I was not on the Bios team Don Bailey was. http://www.sce.= carleton.ca/faculty/bailey/bailey_bio.shtml https://museum.eecs.yorku.= ca/collections/show/7 >=20 > Can anyone identify a PC-DOS compatible PC announced earlier than October 1= 984? Citations would be greatly appreciated. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Thanks >=20 > =20 >=20 > Tom >=20 >=20 -- > db(a)FreeBSD.org > db(a)db.net = http://www.db.net/~db https:/@= Octodon.social/@Dianora --===============5763744719466598720==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jun 6 18:47:23 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 14:47:11 -0400 Message-ID: <702739AD-42AF-4B3D-8C95-05AC13BC72C8@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <01ac01d998a5$76387ea0$62a97be0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0805705656034821003==" --===============0805705656034821003== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 6, 2023, at 2:33 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >=20 > May I suggest compatibility is like pregnancy =E2=80=93 you either are or y= ou are not. I'm reminded of a comment about the PDP-11 family: "A PDP-11/xx is compatible with a PDP-11/yy if and only if xx =3D=3D yy". :-) paul --===============0805705656034821003==-- From db@db.net Tue Jun 6 19:04:44 2023 From: db To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:04:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01ac01d998a5$76387ea0$62a97be0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0908313086043034877==" --===============0908313086043034877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 11:33:54AM -0700, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > May I suggest compatibility is like pregnancy =E2=80=93 you either are or y= ou are not. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Hyperion never purported to be PC-DOS compatible and as noted it wasn=E2=80= =99t even offered as generic MS-DOS compatible. Just because it runs PC-DOS = 3.3 and some applications doesn=E2=80=99t establish that it was PC-DOS compat= ible =E2=80=93 meaning 100% compatible =F0=9F=98=8A >=20 As we were painfully made aware when people tried to run comm programs and they didn't work because we used the Z8530 to get dual serial ports. Also Basic programs which thought they had a lot more memory to use because part of the Basic was in ROM suddenly ran into our RAM based gwbasic. In fact I worked on the graphics routines in our gwbasic and moving of the basic into higher memory.=20 You are absolutely right. The people who designed the original hardware were sure the market would go the same way with BIOS routines and people wouldn't poke around at the direct hardware. We were very wrong. Just before the end (for me anyway) we did a newer h/w revision starting from scratch keeping it 100% compatible but of course by then it was too late. I had very little to do with this project = but I believe it was sold to Commodore. This was a long time ago... The irony is, I never ended up with a Hyperion to take keep and the share options ended up being worthless. I always tell the kids to take the money as it is a sure thing but the share options are usually a crap shoot. Hope this interests someone. >=20 > Tom=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: Santo Nucifora =20 > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2023 10:54 AM > To: t.gardner(a)computer.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Po= sts > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC >=20 > =20 >=20 > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 1:23=E2=80=AFPM Tom Gardner via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > Thanks but I'm pretty sure the Hyperion was not PC-DOS compatible. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I don't want to get off-topic here but the Dynalogic Hyperion is MS-DOS com= patible. I do have one or two of them. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I have run up to MS-DOS 5.0 on it as well as the Hyperion branded MS-DOS 2.= 11. There are some extra configuration commands in that particular version. = I have only tried PC-DOS 3.3 on this but not other versions and it works oka= y. There are varying degrees of MS-DOS compatibility. It is NOT one of the f= ew early computers that ran a customized version of MS-DOS 1.25 and could onl= y run that. Those had horrible compatibility. Without those specific boot d= isks, the computer will not run. I have an STM Personal computer that is lik= e this and I don't have the correct MS-DOS 1.25 for it to boot. It's a pape= rweight without it, unfortunately. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Saying that, the Hyperion is not 100% MS-DOS compatible but it is relativel= y high. Dynalogic used to have compatibility lists of out-of-the-box MS-DOS = software that would run without issues. You can see an example here: https://= vintagecomputer.ca/files/Dynalogic%20Hyperion/compatibility/Hyperion-Tested-S= oftware-February-1984.pdf >=20 > =20 >=20 > Now, if you stated, "100% PC-DOS compatible", then you would be accurate. = >=20 > =20 >=20 > Santo >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > FWIW I remember as a PC clone user in the 1980s and into the 1990s acquirin= g machines that only ran PC-DOS and only using PC-DOS up to and including at = least version 5. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Tom >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: db >=20 > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2023 5:58 AM > To: t.gardner(a)computer.org ; General Di= scussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: Tom Gardner > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Jun 05, 2023 at 10:28:26PM -0700, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > Hi: >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > =20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > Doing some research for historical purposed no litigation at all tryi= ng to identify the first legal PC-DOS compatible PC, legal in the sense t= hat it s BIOS was not a copy of an IBM BIOS. Eagle gets the honor of being f= irst MS-DOS compatible and getting sued for copying IBM s BIOS ?? >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > =20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > The Compaq Portable which shipped in November 1982 is generally credited = with the first legal MS-DOS compatible PC. AFAIK it could not run PC-DOS and= those applications which depended upon certain IBM BIOS commands would fail. >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > =20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > The first legal BIOS is generally considered to be from Phoenix which w= as announced in May 1984 and so far I have been unable to determine its first= system deployments. FWIW Wikipedia points to HP, Tandy and AT&T as some tim= e adopters of a Phoenix BIOS but my research so far is that Tandy s T1000 fam= ily announced in October and November of 1984 was the first system to be PC-D= OS compatible and it did not use a Phoenix BIOS! Such PC-DOS compatible HP a= nd AT&T systems were much later and the Tandy BIOS was written by programmers= of Tandon Corporation, the OEM supplier of the first Tandy T1000s. >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > FWIW I worked at a company here in Ottawa. Dynalogic. We produced a IBM loo= k alike which had a BIOS not copied from the original IBM PC. >=20 > In fact we used different UARTs and graphics card. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Although I was not on the Bios team Don Bailey was. >=20 >=20 >=20 > http://www.sc= e.carleton.ca/faculty/bailey/bailey_bio.shtml >=20 >=20 >=20 > https://museum.eecs.york= u.ca/collections/show/7 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > Can anyone identify a PC-DOS compatible PC announced earlier than October= 1984? Citations would be greatly appreciated. >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > =20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > Thanks >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > =20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > Tom >=20 > >=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- >=20 > > db(a)FreeBSD.org > db(a)db.ne= t http://www.db.net/~db https:= /@Octodon.social/@Dianora >=20 >=20 --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https:/@Octodon.social/@Di= anora --===============0908313086043034877==-- From db@db.net Tue Jun 6 19:27:02 2023 From: db To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:26:51 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7940048239017755702==" --===============7940048239017755702== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 01:54:00PM -0400, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 1:23=E2=80=AFPM Tom Gardner via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > Thanks but I'm pretty sure the Hyperion was not PC-DOS compatible. > > >=20 > I don't want to get off-topic here but the Dynalogic Hyperion is MS-DOS > compatible. I do have one or two of them. I don't have one and I worked for them. ;) >=20 > I have run up to MS-DOS 5.0 on it as well as the Hyperion branded MS-DOS > 2.11. There are some extra configuration commands in that particular Sure the problem is on the early models when you wanted to try poking at the 8250 serial port which we did not have. We had a Z8530. I can't even remember what the graphics card was (I wasn't one of the H/W designers) but I remember Chris Sullivan worked hard on it. The graphics card emulated an IBM CGA and mono with double memory mapping. If you don't poke at the HW it's fine. > version. I have only tried PC-DOS 3.3 on this but not other versions and > it works okay. There are varying degrees of MS-DOS compatibility. It is > NOT one of the few early computers that ran a customized version of MS-DOS > 1.25 and could only run that. Those had horrible compatibility. Without > those specific boot disks, the computer will not run. I have an STM > Personal computer that is like this and I don't have the correct MS-DOS > 1.25 for it to boot. It's a paperweight without it, unfortunately. >=20 > Saying that, the Hyperion is not 100% MS-DOS compatible but it is > relatively high. Dynalogic used to have compatibility lists of > out-of-the-box MS-DOS software that would run without issues. You can see > an example here: > https://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Dynalogic%20Hyperion/compatibility/Hyperio= n-Tested-Software-February-1984.pdf Yes because people were poking at the raw hardware! There was no way around it eg. if you wanted a comm program since the BIOS did not support asy= nc interrupts with buffering etc. so one had to write their own and take over the serial port. *sigh* >=20 > Now, if you stated, "100% PC-DOS compatible", then you would be accurate. >=20 > Santo >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > FWIW I remember as a PC clone user in the 1980s and into the 1990s > > acquiring machines that only ran PC-DOS and only using PC-DOS up to and > > including at least version 5. I remember looking at the original source code. It... was pretty awful as I remember it. It was still labelled as QDOS in the source I saw. > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: db > > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2023 5:58 AM > > To: t.gardner(a)computer.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > > Posts > > Cc: Tom Gardner > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 05, 2023 at 10:28:26PM -0700, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Hi: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doing some research for historical purposed no litigation at all > > trying to identify the first legal PC-DOS compatible PC, legal in the > > sense that it s BIOS was not a copy of an IBM BIOS. Eagle gets the honor > > of being first MS-DOS compatible and getting sued for copying IBM s BIOS = ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Compaq Portable which shipped in November 1982 is generally credited > > with the first legal MS-DOS compatible PC. AFAIK it could not run PC-DOS > > and those applications which depended upon certain IBM BIOS commands would > > fail. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first legal BIOS is generally considered to be from Phoenix which > > was announced in May 1984 and so far I have been unable to determine its > > first system deployments. FWIW Wikipedia points to HP, Tandy and AT&T as > > some time adopters of a Phoenix BIOS but my research so far is that Tandy= s > > T1000 family announced in October and November of 1984 was the first syst= em > > to be PC-DOS compatible and it did not use a Phoenix BIOS! Such PC-DOS > > compatible HP and AT&T systems were much later and the Tandy BIOS was > > written by programmers of Tandon Corporation, the OEM supplier of the fir= st > > Tandy T1000s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FWIW I worked at a company here in Ottawa. Dynalogic. We produced a IBM > > look alike which had a BIOS not copied from the original IBM PC. > > > > In fact we used different UARTs and graphics card. > > > > > > > > Although I was not on the Bios team Don Bailey was. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.sce.carleton.ca/faculty/bailey/bailey_bio.shtml > > > > > > > > > > https://museum.eecs.yorku.ca/collections/show/7 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can anyone identify a PC-DOS compatible PC announced earlier than > > October 1984? Citations would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db= .net < > > http://www.db.net/~db> http://www.db.net/~db > > https:/@Octodon.social/@Dianora > > > > >=20 --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https:/@Octodon.social/@Di= anora --===============7940048239017755702==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jun 6 19:35:08 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 12:34:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00d801d99837$bbdc4ae0$3394e0a0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6904955474676076443==" --===============6904955474676076443== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 5 Jun 2023, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Hi: > Doing some research for historical purposed – no litigation at all – > trying to identify the first “legal” PC-DOS compatible PC, > “legal” in the sense that it’s BIOS was not a copy of an IBM BIOS. > Eagle gets the honor of being first MS-DOS compatible and getting sued > for copying IBM’s BIOS 😊 > The Compaq Portable which shipped in November 1982 is generally credited > with the first legal MS-DOS compatible PC. AFAIK it could not run > PC-DOS and those applications which depended upon certain IBM BIOS > commands would fail. Although Compaq was formed as a company in 1982, the Compaq luggable was not released until March 1983. In summer of 1983, I used one for a week, and used PC-DOS, in addition to the Compaq MS-DOS 1.25 (equivalent to PC-DOS 1.10) In talking about the PC ROM, much of the discussion is conflating the BIOS with the BASI*C ROMs. The 5150, as released in August 1981, had SIX ROM sockets. It had one 8K ROM for the BIOS, four 8K ROMs totaling 32K for BASIC, and one empty socket, which usually stayed empty. A company calling itself MBI sold an accessory ROM for that socket thatr added some trivial features. In 1981, IBM immediately released the "PC Technical Reference Manual" which included schematics, and source code for the BIOS ROM. The Wikipedia article on the Columbia incorrectly states that IBM released the specification, but not the code; NO, the manual had the full source code for the BIOS. Source code for the BASIC was not released. If you look at the source code, each "section" documenting the BIOS interrupts started with a block of comments detailing the documentation for using that interrupt. Those comments, in the beginning of each interrupt source code were plenty to serve as specification for writing a BIOS that PC-DOS would run on. But, that wasn't always good enough. Instead of calling DOS with MOV AH, 2 MOV DL, 42h INT 21h ; call DOS output to put a 'B' on the screen, you could MOV AH, 0fh ; ?was that the right function? MOV AL, 42h INT 10h ; call BIOS video which was faster. Or you could do a far call to the memory location of INT10h, instead of using the Interrupt Vector Table. That would require that not only INT 10h had to be compatible, but it would also have to be at the same memory location, which is asking for more compatabilty. Or, you could call the memory location of funtion 0Fh of Int10h, instead of the memory location of Int10h, instead of using the interrupt vector table, which is asking for more compatability. Or, you could ignore DOS and BIOS, and poke the character into video memory (Segment B000h for monochrome, segment B800h for CGA) DOS calls, calling BIOS calls was considered too slow for commercial software, if you were going to write the whole screen, so virtually all commercial software did direct memory access, and often bypassing DOS and BIOS for other actions, as well. THAT was where major incompatability occured. PC-DOS required that the BIOS functions exist, and that the Interrupt Vector Table point to them. Some commercial software products expected the BIOS functions to be at the same physical address (not just pointed to by the IVT), and therefore required that the BIOS be a closer copy than just compatible. When I released XenoCopy in 1983, I contracted with a publisher. They wanted to try to peddle licensing to IBM itself. For that, they insisted that I make a version of XenoCopy that would not run on anythying other than the real genuine IBM 5150 PC. I did that by accessing a location in the BASIC ROM. Once they found that they could not peddle it directly to IBM, all subsequent versions of XenoCopy that I wrote were compatible with almost anything that claimed compatability. When my royalties started to become later and later, I had to involve lawyers, and shut down the publisher, and then publish and market it myself. MS-DOS 1.25 differed from PC-DOS in that IBMBIO.COM and IBMDOS.COM were named IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS. PC-DOS had small programs BASIC.COM and BASICA.COM that added disk IO and a few other items to the ROM [Cassette] BASIC. BASICA.COM ("Advanced BASIC") was the full set, "BASIC.COM" was the minimal form for machines with inadequate RAM, with abbreviated error messages, etc. MS-DOS had GWBASIC.COM which was the equivalent of the full BASICA, but not requiring the ROM BASIC. Microsoft now refuses to remember what GW stood for in GWBASIC! At the time, they said that it was "GEE WIZ", but later said that it was "Greg Whitten"; and also said that the "MZ" at the beginning of the .EXE file header stood for "Mark Zbikowski". BTW, DOS will look for an internal command first; failing that, it will look for .EXE or .COM but if it finds one, it will ignore the extension! and process it as memory image of EXE file structure based on presence or absence of "MZ"!; then it will check for a .BAT file. Compaq RENAMED "GWBASIC.COM" to "BASICA.COM" (although it was a much larger file containing the entire BASIC, not just adding disk enhancements), so that batch files that mentioned "BASICA" would call it and still run. In 1983 or 1984?, PC-World magazine ran an article comparing compatability of the clones. They "tested" based on which software would run, such as "Flight Simulator". They used version 1.00 of XenoCopy, which deliberately would only run on real genuine IBM 5150 PC, although the versions of XenoCopy being sold by that time would run on ANYTHING that had compatability with INT13h, Int1Eh, Int10h, and had the text screen memory at B000h or B800h. They referred to XenoCopy as "the acid test of compatability" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com --===============6904955474676076443==-- From db@db.net Tue Jun 6 19:35:56 2023 From: db To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:35:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <86d76a59-445d-c3f7-d599-c9ca03a2efde@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8622710021738489126==" --===============8622710021738489126== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 07:22:21AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/6/23 04:25, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > There were a articles in the more technical journal-type mags 1981/82 that > > discussed porting IBM DOS to non IBM 8088 systems that go into the > > mechanics of it. DOS v 1.25 was the OEM version for the early ports. > > *indirectly* from these you might find references to IBM BIOS porting and > > who did it, there. I have only print copies no scans. >=20 > I was there, doing just that. Initially, we at Durango didn't think > that strict 5150 compatibility at the BIOS level was necessary for the > Poppy. In fact, as OEMs, DOS 1.25 was delivered with only a sample > IO.SYS meant as a "skeleton". MS-DOS text mode, like CP/M, was > considered to be good enough. Yep. Dynalogic expected the BIOS route to be the way it would go too. :-( ... >=20 > In fact, MSDOS was never intended to be the ultimate target, but rather > an interim goal as we waited for Intel to complete the kernel for Xenix > on the 80286. Right from the first unit, we had sockets for both the > 80186 and the 80286. Console I/O was done via serial connection. >=20 > It's a shame that few know about the early 80286 systems. I remember getting a ton of 286 manuals from Intel. >=20 > --Chuck >=20 >=20 --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https:/@Octodon.social/@Di= anora --===============8622710021738489126==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 19:39:22 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Commodore Hyperion was Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:39:05 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5460970828653108465==" --===============5460970828653108465== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 3:04=E2=80=AFPM db via cctalk wrote: > > Just before the end (for me anyway) we did a newer h/w > revision starting from scratch keeping it 100% compatible but > of course by then it was too late. I had very little to do with this > project > but I believe it was sold to Commodore. > > This was a long time ago... > > Tom, That is very interesting. I've seen Commodore Hyperion's in the same case but with the molded "Commodore" brand instead of "Hyperion" but figured they were just rebranded Hyperions. Would you happen to know if those were the 100% compatible versions? I know Commodore bought the rights but ended up making their own PCs that turned into Commodore's PC line and the Hyperion design disappeared. I'm wondering if they may have used the 100% compatible Hyperion internals for their models? Santo --===============5460970828653108465==-- From db@db.net Tue Jun 6 19:47:08 2023 From: db To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:46:56 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0052556567846959710==" --===============0052556567846959710== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 12:34:58PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2023, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > Hi: > > Doing some research for historical purposed =E2=80=93 no litigation at al= l =E2=80=93=20 ... >=20 > In talking about the PC ROM, much of the discussion is conflating the BIOS = > with the BASI*C ROMs. > The 5150, as released in August 1981, had SIX ROM sockets. It had one 8K=20 > ROM for the BIOS, four 8K ROMs totaling 32K for BASIC, and one empty=20 > socket, which usually stayed empty. A company calling itself MBI sold an=20 > accessory ROM for that socket thatr added some trivial features. We did not have the extra ROM sockets for the BASIC >=20 > In 1981, IBM immediately released the "PC Technical Reference Manual"=20 > which included schematics, and source code for the BIOS ROM. The=20 > Wikipedia article on the Columbia incorrectly states that IBM released the = > specification, but not the code; NO, the manual had the full source code=20 > for the BIOS. I gave my copy of that to someone on this list in Toronto a few years ago. >=20 > Source code for the BASIC was not released. >=20 > If you look at the source code, each "section" documenting the BIOS=20 > interrupts started with a block of comments detailing the documentation=20 > for using that interrupt. Those comments, in the beginning of each=20 > interrupt source code were plenty to serve as specification for writing a=20 > BIOS that PC-DOS would run on. Yep.=20 >=20 > But, that wasn't always good enough. Instead of calling DOS with > MOV AH, 2 > MOV DL, 42h > INT 21h ; call DOS output > to put a 'B' on the screen, you could > MOV AH, 0fh ; ?was that the right function? > MOV AL, 42h > INT 10h ; call BIOS video=20 > which was faster. > Or you could do a far call to the memory location of INT10h, instead of=20 > using the Interrupt Vector Table. That would require that not only INT=20 > 10h had to be compatible, but it would also have to be at the same memory=20 > location, which is asking for more compatabilty. > Or, you could call the memory location of funtion 0Fh of Int10h, instead=20 > of the memory location of Int10h, instead of using the interrupt vector=20 > table, which is asking for more compatability. >=20 > Or, you could ignore DOS and BIOS, and poke the character into video=20 > memory (Segment B000h for monochrome, segment B800h for CGA) > DOS calls, calling BIOS calls was considered too slow for commercial=20 > software, if you were going to write the whole screen, so virtually all=20 > commercial software did direct memory access, and often bypassing DOS and=20 > BIOS for other actions, as well. THAT was where major incompatability=20 > occured. Yep! The problem was, yes you could do dot per dot graphics using the INT cal= ls but that was very slow. ;) SO of course developers went for the bare metal. I wrote a tiny function for the first compiler we could get which was small model only, that stuffed the DS onto the stack and took a segment argument. A co-worker then wrote some graphics routines by passing the graphics segment, doing some graphics, then in the return the original DS was restored as part of the function. Of course, when the newer compilers came out it was obsolete. ;) >=20 > PC-DOS required that the BIOS functions exist, and that the Interrupt=20 > Vector Table point to them. Some commercial software products expected=20 > the BIOS functions to be at the same physical address (not just pointed to = > by the IVT), and therefore required that the BIOS be a closer copy than=20 > just compatible. >=20 Yep. >=20 > When I released XenoCopy in 1983, I contracted with a publisher. They=20 > wanted to try to peddle licensing to IBM itself. For that, they insisted=20 > that I make a version of XenoCopy that would not run on anythying other=20 > than the real genuine IBM 5150 PC. I did that by accessing a location in=20 > the BASIC ROM. Once they found that they could not peddle it directly to=20 > IBM, all subsequent versions of XenoCopy that I wrote were compatible with = > almost anything that claimed compatability. When my royalties started to=20 > become later and later, I had to involve lawyers, and shut down the=20 > publisher, and then publish and market it myself. Yikes! >=20 >=20 > MS-DOS 1.25 differed from PC-DOS in that IBMBIO.COM and IBMDOS.COM were=20 > named IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS. PC-DOS had small programs BASIC.COM and=20 > BASICA.COM that added disk IO and a few other items to the ROM [Cassette]=20 > BASIC. BASICA.COM ("Advanced BASIC") was the full set, "BASIC.COM" was=20 > the minimal form for machines with inadequate RAM, with abbreviated error=20 > messages, etc. MS-DOS had GWBASIC.COM which was the equivalent of the=20 > full BASICA, but not requiring the ROM BASIC. Yep I worked a bit with GWBASIC and in the end I had our graphics routines out-pacing the COMPAQ ones. ;) >=20 > Compaq RENAMED "GWBASIC.COM" to "BASICA.COM" (although it was a much=20 > larger file containing the entire BASIC, not just adding disk=20 > enhancements), so that batch files that mentioned "BASICA" would call it=20 > and still run. Yes we did that too. >=20 >=20 > In 1983 or 1984?, PC-World magazine ran an article comparing compatability = > of the clones. They "tested" based on which software would run, such as=20 > "Flight Simulator". They used version 1.00 of XenoCopy, which=20 > deliberately would only run on real genuine IBM 5150 PC, although the=20 > versions of XenoCopy being sold by that time would run on ANYTHING=20 > that had compatability with INT13h, Int1Eh, Int10h, and had the text=20 > screen memory at B000h or B800h. They referred to XenoCopy as "the acid=20 > test of compatability" - Diane --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https:/@Octodon.social/@Di= anora --===============0052556567846959710==-- From db@db.net Tue Jun 6 19:53:29 2023 From: db To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Commodore Hyperion was Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:53:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4865841812580123271==" --===============4865841812580123271== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 03:39:05PM -0400, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 3:04=E2=80=AFPM db via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > > > Just before the end (for me anyway) we did a newer h/w > > revision starting from scratch keeping it 100% compatible but > > of course by then it was too late. I had very little to do with this > > project > > but I believe it was sold to Commodore. > > > > This was a long time ago... > > > > > Tom, >=20 > That is very interesting. I've seen Commodore Hyperion's in the same case > but with the molded "Commodore" brand instead of "Hyperion" but figured > they were just rebranded Hyperions. Would you happen to know if those were > the 100% compatible versions? Yes most likely but again this wasn't really my side. I was in the SW side. My code ended up in places like IN:TOUCH, BASICA, ... etc. The editor was written by Don Lindsay.=20 It would have had to been come to think of it. I know we were developing for ourselves a 100% compatible but I was not privy to the sellout the Commodore. Don Bailey, Chris Sullivan and one other guy I can't remember his name were the HW folks.=20 >=20 > I know Commodore bought the rights but ended up making their own PCs that > turned into Commodore's PC line and the Hyperion design disappeared. I'm > wondering if they may have used the 100% compatible Hyperion internals for > their models? Yes. They must have. =20 >=20 > Santo >=20 P.S. One more fun fact, I saw at least one Hyperion case here in Ottawa turned upside down and used as a flower planter. Diane --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https:/@Octodon.social/@Di= anora --===============4865841812580123271==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 19:56:21 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Commodore Hyperion was Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 12:56:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8814083209551341806==" --===============8814083209551341806== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 12:39 PM Santo Nucifora via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 3:04 PM db via cctalk > wrote: > > That is very interesting. I've seen Commodore Hyperion's in the same case > but with the molded "Commodore" brand instead of "Hyperion" but figured > they were just rebranded Hyperions. Would you happen to know if those were > the 100% compatible versions? > > I know Commodore bought the rights but ended up making their own PCs that > turned into Commodore's PC line and the Hyperion design disappeared. I'm > wondering if they may have used the 100% compatible Hyperion internals for > their models? Are the Commodore Colts the line acquired from Hyperion or their own design? I don't believe I've ever seen a Commodore-badged Hyperion. Sellam --===============8814083209551341806==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Jun 6 20:02:14 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 13:02:14 -0700 Message-ID: <00fe01d998b1$cacfa720$606ef560$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3362358476444225872==" --===============3362358476444225872== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The 5150, as released in August 1981, had SIX ROM sockets. It had one > 8K > ROM for the BIOS, four 8K ROMs totaling 32K for BASIC, and one empty > socket, which usually stayed empty. A company calling itself MBI sold > an > accessory ROM for that socket thatr added some trivial features. > I always wondered if anyone made use of the extra BIOS sockets. Do you by any= chance recall what functions were added? -Ali --===============3362358476444225872==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 20:09:28 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Commodore Hyperion was Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 16:09:11 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7834542002038635529==" --===============7834542002038635529== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sellam, Bo Zimmerman at Zimmers.net has a picture of one here: http://www.zimmers.net/commie/canonical.php?UPTOP&cat=3DPC+Series&prod=3D1&mo= del=3DPC-3052 Here is one booting up on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DXFnPXH1Fy5w The quality is not great for either of them and there are no internal pictures, unfortunately. I don't know if it's the same one but it looks like the front mold was changed so there must have been more than one. The deal with Commodore/Hyperion was reported to be in 1984. The Commodore Colt came out in 1984. From what I've read, Commodore was trying to buy a PC before they started making their own. It would not be a leap for them to use what they learned from the 100% DOS compatible Hyperion to make the Colt because if they were working on the Colt, they wouldn't have needed the Hyperion. All speculation on my part as there is not a lot of information on this out there. Santo On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 3:56=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 12:39=E2=80=AFPM Santo Nucifora via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 3:04=E2=80=AFPM db via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > That is very interesting. I've seen Commodore Hyperion's in the same > case > > but with the molded "Commodore" brand instead of "Hyperion" but figured > > they were just rebranded Hyperions. Would you happen to know if those > were > > the 100% compatible versions? > > > > I know Commodore bought the rights but ended up making their own PCs that > > turned into Commodore's PC line and the Hyperion design disappeared. I'm > > wondering if they may have used the 100% compatible Hyperion internals > for > > their models? > > > Are the Commodore Colts the line acquired from Hyperion or their own > design? > > I don't believe I've ever seen a Commodore-badged Hyperion. > > Sellam > --===============7834542002038635529==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 20:13:12 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Commodore Hyperion was Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 13:12:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6878132274559021253==" --===============6878132274559021253== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 1:09=E2=80=AFPM Santo Nucifora via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sellam, > > Bo Zimmerman at Zimmers.net has a picture of one here: > > http://www.zimmers.net/commie/canonical.php?UPTOP&cat=3DPC+Series&prod=3D1&= model=3DPC-3052 > > Here is one booting up on Youtube: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DXFnPXH1Fy5w > > The quality is not great for either of them and there are no internal > pictures, unfortunately. I don't know if it's the same one but it looks > like the front mold was changed so there must have been more than one. > > The deal with Commodore/Hyperion was reported to be in 1984. The > Commodore Colt came out in 1984. From what I've read, Commodore was trying > to buy a PC before they started making their own. It would not be a leap > for them to use what they learned from the 100% DOS compatible Hyperion to > make the Colt because if they were working on the Colt, they wouldn't have > needed the Hyperion. I missed that Commodore re-badged the Hyperion. I was confusing "Dynalogic" (the company) with Hyperion (their portable computer model). A Commodore re-badged Hyperion is definitely something I've never seen. Pretty interesting. Sellam --===============6878132274559021253==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jun 6 20:21:22 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 13:21:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00fe01d998b1$cacfa720$606ef560$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5606427122688968783==" --===============5606427122688968783== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The 5150, as released in August 1981, had SIX ROM sockets. It had one >> 8K ROM for the BIOS, four 8K ROMs totaling 32K for BASIC, and one empty >> socket, which usually stayed empty. A company calling itself MBI sold >> an accessory ROM for that socket thatr added some trivial features. >> > On Tue, 6 Jun 2023, Ali wrote: > I always wondered if anyone made use of the extra BIOS sockets. Do you > by any chance recall what functions were added? I don't recall ever seeing any other than that MBI one. It's almost certainly still sitting in the socket of my first 5150. I never got around to using any of those functions. I don't remember the details, but I think that it might have added some print-screen functionality and some modes of the IBM printer (Epson MX80 with different ROM). Nothing that I ended up having need of. If/when I dig it out, how much should I ask for it? (Berkeley California) NO, Ed, I won't give it away AND pay shipping. EARLY 5150, but with trivial modifications, such as additional holes in brackets for 4 half-height drives, and probably has a different video board and disk controller than the IBM ones that I originally bought with it. At one time, I had a Plantronics 640x400 CGA-sorta-like video, and I used 8 inch drives with a Vista disk controller, a Maynard, and maybe one or two others (but only one disk controller at a time; I only did multiple controllers with 5160 and 5170) It had a D hole in the back panel, I might have punched an additional D hole, . . . I recall it having an unusual black power supply with a white switch (Did IBM run short of inventory supply?), but I might have replaced that at some point. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5606427122688968783==-- From db@db.net Tue Jun 6 20:23:07 2023 From: db To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Commodore Hyperion was Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 16:22:57 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1810294771008922194==" --===============1810294771008922194== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 04:09:11PM -0400, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > Sellam, >=20 > Bo Zimmerman at Zimmers.net has a picture of one here: > http://www.zimmers.net/commie/canonical.php?UPTOP&cat=3DPC+Series&prod=3D1&= model=3DPC-3052 Wow! News to me too. It appears that has the "Lemex" drives. (Our internal nickname for those, you know why.) >=20 > Here is one booting up on Youtube: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DXFnPXH1Fy5w >=20 > The quality is not great for either of them and there are no internal > pictures, unfortunately. I don't know if it's the same one but it looks > like the front mold was changed so there must have been more than one. Awesome! Only the early models shipped with that drive and although it was a cool design the spring used to break... >=20 > The deal with Commodore/Hyperion was reported to be in 1984. The > Commodore Colt came out in 1984. From what I've read, Commodore was trying > to buy a PC before they started making their own. It would not be a leap > for them to use what they learned from the 100% DOS compatible Hyperion to > make the Colt because if they were working on the Colt, they wouldn't have > needed the Hyperion. As I remember it, Commodore simply didn't want it made public they had=20 bought our design... >=20 > All speculation on my part as there is not a lot of information on this out > there. > Santo Indeed. >=20 > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 3:56=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 12:39=E2=80=AFPM Santo Nucifora via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 3:04=E2=80=AFPM db via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > That is very interesting. I've seen Commodore Hyperion's in the same > > case > > > but with the molded "Commodore" brand instead of "Hyperion" but figured > > > they were just rebranded Hyperions. Would you happen to know if those > > were > > > the 100% compatible versions? > > > > > > I know Commodore bought the rights but ended up making their own PCs th= at > > > turned into Commodore's PC line and the Hyperion design disappeared. I= 'm > > > wondering if they may have used the 100% compatible Hyperion internals > > for > > > their models? > > > > > > Are the Commodore Colts the line acquired from Hyperion or their own > > design? > > > > I don't believe I've ever seen a Commodore-badged Hyperion. > > > > Sellam > > >=20 --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https:/@Octodon.social/@Di= anora --===============1810294771008922194==-- From db@db.net Tue Jun 6 20:29:53 2023 From: db To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Commodore Hyperion was Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 16:29:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5055827124363946942==" --===============5055827124363946942== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 01:12:56PM -0700, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 1:09=E2=80=AFPM Santo Nucifora via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 > > Sellam, > > ... > > make the Colt because if they were working on the Colt, they wouldn't have > > needed the Hyperion. >=20 >=20 > I missed that Commodore re-badged the Hyperion. I was confusing > "Dynalogic" (the company) with Hyperion (their portable computer model). We went through ... several .... rebadging of the company name. Dynalogic was a small company before I joined it with a 6800 product already under their belts under Murray Bell. I imagine after I joined the usual growth spurt really meant we needed more money. We had Comterm buy a bit (Comterm a Montreal company) then Bytec then Bytec-Comterm I think. I *might* still have some stashes of the weekly new business cards downstairs. I remember when they *fired* the founder, Murray Bell. *sigh* It was a sad day. York U has a short section I believe they have some of the documents I donated on Dynalogic. https://museum.eecs.yorku.ca/exhibits/show/v_tour/item/53 >=20 > A Commodore re-badged Hyperion is definitely something I've never seen. > Pretty interesting. Judging from the drives shown in that photo, that would *not* have been the 100% compatible. >=20 > Sellam >=20 Diane --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db https:/@Octodon.social/@Di= anora --===============5055827124363946942==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jun 6 20:35:41 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 13:35:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4035985618330360405==" --===============4035985618330360405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > In 1983 or 1984?, PC-World magazine ran an article comparing compatability = of=20 > the clones. They "tested" based on which software would run, such as "Flig= ht=20 > Simulator". They used version 1.00 of XenoCopy, which deliberately would=20 > only run on real genuine IBM 5150 PC, although the versions of XenoCopy bei= ng=20 > sold by that time would run on ANYTHING that had compatability with INT13h,= =20 > Int1Eh, Int10h, and had the text screen memory at B000h or B800h. They=20 > referred to XenoCopy as "the acid test of compatability" After that, and because of that, I wrote, but never bothered completing=20 debugging nor finished sufficiently for retail release, a program=20 intended to quantify compatability, called "XenoPhobe : The Acid Test" It started by identifying the processor. I could only do that by side=20 effects of obscure code, such as checking the size of the pre-fetch=20 buffer, the multi-segment over-ride issue, etc. At one point, an article in MicroCornucopia discussed processor=20 identification, and mentioned "official Intel company internal methods".=20 I eventually found somebody at Intel who understood what I meant. He asked=20 that if I ever did find them, to send him a copy. It did an attempt at speed test, and did some direct to memory video. It checked Interrupt Vector Table for whether the BIOS interrupts pointed=20 to the same locations as IBM had, and checked some other location and ROM=20 specific items, such as the BASIC floating point accumulator. It looked for IBM text strings in the ROMs, etc. It was a fun diversion, but I did not think that it had any retail=20 potential. Certainly not enough to devote massive work towards doing it=20 right. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4035985618330360405==-- From r_a_feldman@hotmail.com Tue Jun 6 21:38:39 2023 From: Robert Feldman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 21:38:33 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4023860032285617337==" --===============4023860032285617337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Message: 7 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 02:41:56 +0000 >From: John Floren >Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >It's funny that luggable power packs come up here as I'm trying to revive my= Otrona >Attache... The power supply does nothing on AC input, even after a r= ecapping, so I >thought I'd investigate the "DC Power Option" described in th= e manual. Unfortunately I >can't find any record that Otrona ever actually *s= old* a "DC Power Option", which >would plug into an unpopulated 6-pin Molex c= onnector on the back of the device. >Interestingly, the header inside the pow= er supply labeled "DC Option" is a 7-pin >header, so I'm not sure which pin w= as "optional" for the external connector! > >I'd just replace the power supply wholesale with a little ATX supply or some= thing, but >the machine needs 5V, 12V, -12V, and 15V; the latter is used to p= ower the CRT and >represents a real challenge! I've yet to find anything that= outputs all 4 levels at a >reasonable price. > >john > I have an Otrona Attache 8:16 with the DC option, so it was sold. (I used bot= h the Osborne and the Otrona in Peru, so having a battery option was an advan= tage.) However, my Attache has the disk drives that both spin up at the same = time, and the DC option does not supply enough power to properly spin both dr= ives, so the computer will reboot if you try to read or write anything to dis= k while on DC! I=E2=80=99m traveling now, but will open up my Attache and take some picture= s for you in a couple of weeks. Bob --===============4023860032285617337==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jun 6 22:14:05 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:13:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2274482403509732709==" --===============2274482403509732709== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The only possible way to have 100% compatability is copyright infringement. But, you can certainly come up with something that is similar enough to do what you need." --===============2274482403509732709==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jun 6 23:30:22 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 19:30:08 -0400 Message-ID: <262B65E8-C9DD-48A5-BA9A-DBD3576A6AAD@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3091566026564236331==" --===============3091566026564236331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 6, 2023, at 6:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > "The only possible way to have 100% compatability is copyright infringement= . But, you can certainly come up with something that is similar enough to do= what you need." That's not always true. Another way to get it is to implement from sufficien= tly high quality specifications. The DIX Ethernet spec, and the DECnet specs= , are examples where if you do what they say you will have an interoperable i= mplementation. Unfortunately that level of quality is not common, but it can and has been do= ne. paul --===============3091566026564236331==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 7 00:01:50 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 17:01:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <262B65E8-C9DD-48A5-BA9A-DBD3576A6AAD@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7350599389700142994==" --===============7350599389700142994== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> "The only possible way to have 100% compatability is copyright infringemen= t. But, you can certainly come up with something that is similar enough to d= o what you need." On Tue, 6 Jun 2023, Paul Koning wrote: > That's not always true. Another way to get it is to implement from suffici= ently high quality specifications. The DIX Ethernet spec, and the DECnet spe= cs, are examples where if you do what they say you will have an interoperable= implementation. > Unfortunately that level of quality is not common, but it can and has been = done. Well, our discussion will be hindered by variations in the definitions of=20 compatability. And, we are discussing it in the context of IBM 5150! A perfect implementation of the specification is certainly one definition,=20 and should certainly give you something similar enough to do what you=20 need. In MOST cases. But, what if the specification itself is not perfect? If we, instead, define "100% compatability" as always behaving exactly the=20 same as the original, we might have problems. With something like the IBM PC, you might still run up against a=20 situation where somebody has exploited a bug, and the perfect=20 implementation is therefore not completely the same as the real world=20 example. We have to agree first about whether 100% compatability means a perfect=20 mplementation of the specification, or whether 100% compatability means=20 "bug for bug compatability". MY definition of 100% includes "bug for bug compatability". "Do you want it completely compatible, or do you want it to work RIGHT?" I can't off the top of my head come up with any GOOD examples, such as why=20 you might WANT to do any of the specific floating point divisions that=20 show that bug in certain early Pentiums, but should we call it completely=20 compatible with THAT model if it fails to give that particular wrong=20 result? but... In the screen capture section of XenoFont, the full 4000 bytes of text mode=20 video memory could not be done fast enough (unless I did it in sections=20 and synchronized when it happened) without a clash that produced a=20 mometary sparkle of "static". I declared that to be a FEATURE, and said=20 that that was "the flash going off" to tell you when the image got=20 captured. :-) And, believe it or not, some users LIKED that! A machine=20 that is enough faster than a 5150 to NOT get that "interference" might be=20 BETTER, but not behaving exactly the same. One of my students once was asking about the "freeze" of 5150 BASIC during=20 "garbage collection" and wondered about using that to get random=20 unexpected pauses and breaks for users doing long intensive tasks! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7350599389700142994==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 00:06:12 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 20:05:55 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3926997938700526724==" --===============3926997938700526724== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 8:01=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> "The only possible way to have 100% compatability is copyright > infringement. But, you can certainly come up with something that is > similar enough to do what you need." > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2023, Paul Koning wrote: > > That's not always true. Another way to get it is to implement from > sufficiently high quality specifications. The DIX Ethernet spec, and the > DECnet specs, are examples where if you do what they say you will have an > interoperable implementation. > > Unfortunately that level of quality is not common, but it can and has > been done. > > Well, our discussion will be hindered by variations in the definitions of > compatability. > And, we are discussing it in the context of IBM 5150! > > A perfect implementation of the specification is certainly one definition, > and should certainly give you something similar enough to do what you > need. In MOST cases. > > > I thought the goal back then was not 100% hardware compatibility, it was MS/IBM DOS compatibility. To be able to load/run/copy files from one PC to another, dBASE, Lotus, Wordstar, etc. I don't think most manufacturers cared as long as the software worked and you could make a printout using a standard printer of the day like an Epson or whatever. Bill --===============3926997938700526724==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 00:16:27 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 17:16:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1035396152350934946==" --===============1035396152350934946== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 1:21=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > If/when I dig it out, how much should I ask for it? (Berkeley California) > NO, Ed, I won't give it away AND pay shipping. :D > EARLY 5150, but with trivial modifications, such as additional holes in > brackets for 4 half-height drives, and probably has a different video > board and disk controller than the IBM ones that I originally bought with > it. At one time, I had a Plantronics 640x400 CGA-sorta-like video, and > I used 8 inch drives with a Vista disk controller, a Maynard, and maybe > one or two others (but only one disk controller at a time; I only did > multiple controllers with 5160 and 5170) > It had a D hole in the back panel, I might have punched an additional > D hole, . . . > I recall it having an unusual black power supply with a white switch (Did > IBM run short of inventory supply?), but I might have replaced that at > some point. > The primary distinguishing features of the very first run of 5150's are: 1) No "B" inside a circle stamped on the back panel 2) Only two case screws on lower right and left of back panel (none on top) 3) Black power supply Here's a photo that shows this =3D=3D> https://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5150/early/5150_early_case_rear.jpg Bill Degnan (from whom I learned all this) knows more about this. Sellam --===============1035396152350934946==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 7 00:20:54 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 17:20:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3849096846724312799==" --===============3849096846724312799== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 6 Jun 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I thought the goal back then was not 100% hardware compatibility, it was > MS/IBM DOS compatibility. To be able to load/run/copy files from one PC to > another, dBASE, Lotus, Wordstar, etc. I don't think most manufacturers > cared as long as the software worked and you could make a printout using a > standard printer of the day like an Epson or whatever. Most people, even those who explicitly stated that it was, were not intereste in 100% compatability, they just wanted something that would not give them unexpected incompatabilities. I tested all of my software on real IBM hardware. If it worked on the real hardware, but failed on a customer's "compatible", it would be a drag, but not the disaster that it would be if it had worked on my "compatible", but failed on the real thing. People who tested software on "compatible" machines sometimes got surprised. Trivial example: if the attribute of a text character is both reverse video AND bright, the PC CGA handled that differently than the Columbia CGA. F'rinstance, one of my early versions worked on 5150, but failed on a customer's AT&T 80186? machine. That was when I learned about the change in the size of the prefetch buffer. The fact that it had worked on 5150 helped the customer to understand that it wasn't "BAD software", but that it needed some tweaks to work with his "non-standard" machine. And fortunately easily remedied (an otherwise unnecessary JMP to flush the buffer) before the 5170 came out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3849096846724312799==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 7 00:29:09 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 17:29:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2949608681010022155==" --===============2949608681010022155== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 6 Jun 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > The primary distinguishing features of the very first run of 5150's are: > 1) No "B" inside a circle stamped on the back panel > 2) Only two case screws on lower right and left of back panel (none on top) > 3) Black power supply > > Here's a photo that shows this ==> > https://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5150/early/5150_early_case_rear.jpg > > Bill Degnan (from whom I learned all this) knows more about this. I will have to check for the 'B', but there are a few cubic meters of stuff to move to get to it. 2 case screws power supply was not only black, but had a white switch, instead of the red paddle. in addition to the round plugged hole, it might also have originally had a "D hole" for a DB25. When I mentioned such to my department chairman (an unusually competent fellow), he used department money to buy a Greenlee chassis punch, so we added those DB25 mounts to a few others as needed, instead of tying up a slot just for a bracket. --===============2949608681010022155==-- From john@jfloren.net Wed Jun 7 00:36:05 2023 From: John Floren To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 00:35:47 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV2PR12MB57274A196D993693FA7B1409B552A=40LV2PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5727=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7069043773406587503==" --===============7069043773406587503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, June 6th, 2023 at 2:38 PM, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > >Message: 7 >=20 > > Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 02:41:56 +0000 > > From: John Floren john(a)jfloren.net > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >=20 > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > >=20 > > It's funny that luggable power packs come up here as I'm trying to revive= my Otrona >Attache... The power supply does nothing on AC input, even after = a recapping, so I >thought I'd investigate the "DC Power Option" described in= the manual. Unfortunately I >can't find any record that Otrona ever actually= sold a "DC Power Option", which >would plug into an unpopulated 6-pin Molex = connector on the back of the device. >Interestingly, the header inside the po= wer supply labeled "DC Option" is a 7-pin >header, so I'm not sure which pin = was "optional" for the external connector! > >=20 > > I'd just replace the power supply wholesale with a little ATX supply or s= omething, but >the machine needs 5V, 12V, -12V, and 15V; the latter is used t= o power the CRT and >represents a real challenge! I've yet to find anything t= hat outputs all 4 levels at a >reasonable price. > >=20 > > john >=20 >=20 > I have an Otrona Attache 8:16 with the DC option, so it was sold. (I used b= oth the Osborne and the Otrona in Peru, so having a battery option was an adv= antage.) However, my Attache has the disk drives that both spin up at the sam= e time, and the DC option does not supply enough power to properly spin both = drives, so the computer will reboot if you try to read or write anything to d= isk while on DC! >=20 > I=E2=80=99m traveling now, but will open up my Attache and take some pictur= es for you in a couple of weeks. >=20 > Bob Thanks, Bob, that would be very helpful! I think the biggest thing is figurin= g out how the pack was wired into the J4 header on the PSU... if you've got t= he manuals for the DC option, it might have schematics too. john --===============7069043773406587503==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jun 7 00:49:44 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 17:49:46 -0700 Message-ID: <011801d998d9$f5879950$e096cbf0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3599611573339846074==" --===============3599611573339846074== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If/when I dig it out, how much should I ask for it? (Berkeley > California) The 5150 or the ROM? :) I don't know about either but prices have been getting ludicrous lately. I would be interested in playing around with the ROM so if you ever dig it up and dump the contents..... Or I can always take it off your hands at the next VCF West :D The black power supply might be an indication it is one of the early 64KB 5150s making it worth more... -Ali --===============3599611573339846074==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 7 01:04:12 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 18:04:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <011801d998d9$f5879950$e096cbf0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6712932644952645909==" --===============6712932644952645909== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> If/when I dig it out, how much should I ask for it? (Berkeley >> California) On Tue, 6 Jun 2023, Ali wrote: > The 5150 or the ROM? :) I don't know about either but prices have been > getting ludicrous lately. I would be interested in playing around with the > ROM so if you ever dig it up and dump the contents..... Or I can always take > it off your hands at the next VCF West :D The 5150. But, I don't think that it would have any effect on the pricing if I were to remove that after-market ROM. > The black power supply might be an indication it is one of the early 64KB > 5150s making it worth more... It is certainly nowhere near "THE first", nor even the first locally, but it is an early one. On August 12, 1981, I started checking out getting one. I bought it, the "Technical Reference Manual", a CGA board and FDC. I already had plenty of RAM, floppy drives, and CCTV monitors. I put 27 TRS80 RAM chips in, and a pair of floppy drives. Then, I bought a 192K ECC memory board (Boulder Creek Systems?) Then a "multi-function" card to get RS232 for modem, and to connect to my DTC300 serial HiType 1 daisy wheel printer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6712932644952645909==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 7 01:05:55 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 18:05:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7711673297365408070==" --===============7711673297365408070== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> In 1981, IBM immediately released the "PC Technical Reference Manual" >> which included schematics, and source code for the BIOS ROM. The > > I gave my copy of that to someone on this list in Toronto a few years ago. If you buy a replacement of the old manual, the V2.02 is quite a bit better. --===============7711673297365408070==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 03:04:02 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 04:03:47 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <702739AD-42AF-4B3D-8C95-05AC13BC72C8@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6388544487715415705==" --===============6388544487715415705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 7:47 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I'm reminded of a comment about the PDP-11 family: > > "A PDP-11/xx is compatible with a PDP-11/yy if and only if xx == yy". That I suspect is actually false. The11/05 and 11/10 were the same machine, ditto the11/35 and 11/40. --===============6388544487715415705==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 03:16:28 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 04:16:14 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CkWT2fVU2S9V0cPjamdmpVhb1vBLh3hY1tMbNeGe1VjKVstYn?= =?utf-8?q?=5FvTBphzU7SwD=5FlX0mCPG72AVTvAWReKviK3Cxc0DVt7wC8AI2Z=5FeeHYCLbU?= =?utf-8?q?=3D=40jfloren=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2481866915903614246==" --===============2481866915903614246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:36=E2=80=AFAM John Floren via cctalk wrote: > Thanks, Bob, that would be very helpful! I think the biggest thing is figur= ing out how the pack was wired into the J4 header on the PSU... if you've got= the manuals for the DC option, it might have schematics too. Be very careful with that J4 header. It appears that the 350V DC from the power line appears there! My guess is that the battery unit contained some kind of inverter and supplied that voltage to run the machine. -tony --===============2481866915903614246==-- From hughpyle@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 11:17:36 2023 From: Hugh Pyle To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] The Colony source Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 19:09:33 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4431993010804392771==" --===============4431993010804392771== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David A. Smith has posted the source code for The Colony (for Mac, PC and Amiga) - the first realtime 3d adventure game. https://github.com/Croquetx/thecolony --===============4431993010804392771==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 7 13:06:39 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 09:06:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8683934878381801669==" --===============8683934878381801669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > On Jun 6, 2023, at 11:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 7:47 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > >> I'm reminded of a comment about the PDP-11 family: >> >> "A PDP-11/xx is compatible with a PDP-11/yy if and only if xx == yy". > > That I suspect is actually false. The11/05 and 11/10 were the same > machine, ditto the11/35 and 11/40. True, but as a close enough to true bit of humor it serves quite well. paul --===============8683934878381801669==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 7 13:18:42 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Colony source Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 09:18:11 -0400 Message-ID: <9EC90176-CF86-4B3E-A52D-974E30F6504B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9161065028052892518==" --===============9161065028052892518== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 6, 2023, at 7:09 PM, Hugh Pyle via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > David A. Smith has posted the source code for The Colony > (for Mac, PC and Amiga) > - the first realtime 3d adventure game. >=20 > https://github.com/Croquetx/thecolony Early, sure. First, definitely not. There were games just like that, with (= more primitive, admittedly) 3D graphics on PLATO back around 1977. For that matter, it's interesting that the description mentions Bruce Artwick= 's "Flight Simulator" but not the earlier (and arguably direct ancestor) "air= fight" written on PLATO in 1976 by Brand Fortner. paul --===============9161065028052892518==-- From jon@jonworld.com Wed Jun 7 18:26:54 2023 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM RT Graphics Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 19:26:40 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0128225241450706996==" --===============0128225241450706996== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello! I have an IBM 6152 aka IBM RT system I rescued. (It may be a 6151?) I'm 90% sure it has colour graphics. The system does seem to POST correctly (according to the LED on the front) but the CRT is dead. I'm wondering if anyone has built an adapter to hook this to a VGA monitor. I'm a bit confused by the pinout. It has high and low bits for the RGB (and associated grounds for each colour.) So I'm not sure how that would work hooking to a more modern monitor. http://bio.gsi.de/DOCS/IBM/615x/faqshard.html Otherwise I need a crash course in fixing CRTs. -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============0128225241450706996==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Jun 7 18:44:14 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 13:44:07 -0500 Message-ID: <1387553187.69928.1686163447986@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4068502601653532249==" --===============4068502601653532249== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 06/07/2023 1:26 PM CDT Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hello! >=20 > I have an IBM 6152 aka IBM RT system I rescued. (It may be a 6151?) > I'm 90% sure it has colour graphics. The system does seem to POST > correctly (according to the LED on the front) but the CRT is dead. I'm > wondering if anyone has built an adapter to hook this to a VGA > monitor. >=20 > I'm a bit confused by the pinout. It has high and low bits for the RGB > (and associated grounds for each colour.) So I'm not sure how that > would work hooking to a more modern monitor. > http://bio.gsi.de/DOCS/IBM/615x/faqshard.html >=20 > Otherwise I need a crash course in fixing CRTs. >=20 > -- > -Jon > +44 7792 149029 I am not familiar with any of that equipment, but from the description here h= ttp://bio.gsi.de/DOCS/IBM/615x/faqshard.html#h33. it appears the video is two= bits of ttl level data for each color. That is how EGA did it, which I thin= k was about the same time frame (1985 ish.). The scan rates seem rather close= to EGA as well. It might be worthwhile to look into EGA interfacing. Will --===============4068502601653532249==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Jun 7 18:53:11 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 13:52:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1387553187.69928.1686163447986@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1857652280936566748==" --===============1857652280936566748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know that VGA used analog signals and sync rather than digital signals. On 6/7/2023 1:44 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > >> On 06/07/2023 1:26 PM CDT Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Hello! >> >> I have an IBM 6152 aka IBM RT system I rescued. (It may be a 6151?) >> I'm 90% sure it has colour graphics. The system does seem to POST >> correctly (according to the LED on the front) but the CRT is dead. I'm >> wondering if anyone has built an adapter to hook this to a VGA >> monitor. >> >> I'm a bit confused by the pinout. It has high and low bits for the RGB >> (and associated grounds for each colour.) So I'm not sure how that >> would work hooking to a more modern monitor. >> http://bio.gsi.de/DOCS/IBM/615x/faqshard.html >> >> Otherwise I need a crash course in fixing CRTs. >> >> -- >> -Jon >> +44 7792 149029 > I am not familiar with any of that equipment, but from the description here= http://bio.gsi.de/DOCS/IBM/615x/faqshard.html#h33. it appears the video is t= wo bits of ttl level data for each color. That is how EGA did it, which I th= ink was about the same time frame (1985 ish.). The scan rates seem rather clo= se to EGA as well. It might be worthwhile to look into EGA interfacing. > > Will --===============1857652280936566748==-- From bear@typewritten.org Wed Jun 7 18:54:01 2023 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 11:52:53 -0700 Message-ID: <58B21663-171A-4CE4-AD43-49939015536B@typewritten.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4376448706807428624==" --===============4376448706807428624== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 7, 2023, at 11:26 AM, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hello! >=20 > I have an IBM 6152 aka IBM RT system I rescued. (It may be a 6151?) You have a 6151, the 6152 has VGA graphics (is built inside a PS/2 Model 60) > I'm 90% sure it has colour graphics. The system does seem to POST > correctly (according to the LED on the front) but the CRT is dead. I'm > wondering if anyone has built an adapter to hook this to a VGA > monitor. You=E2=80=99re going to run into trouble, then, as the video signal is comple= tely incompatible with a normal VGA multisync monitor. It=E2=80=99s TTL color= , interlaced, with a horizontal scan frequency less than 31kHz. 720x512 inter= laced. The RT knows how to use a =E2=80=9Cstandard=E2=80=9D IBM PC MDA or EGA adapte= r. Might be better off using one of those instead, at least for now. ok bear. --===============4376448706807428624==-- From barto@kdbarto.org Wed Jun 7 19:33:50 2023 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fwd: [TUHS] Pixel 100/AP UNIX Computer Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 11:06:33 -0700 Message-ID: <4ED192FA-4C96-4655-B813-04E27B9D57DC@kdbarto.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Cvd=5FjVwFiVEnx4ENiJz4yAj5ukGfT=5F0HpUvpngjYkUdRw6a?= =?utf-8?q?Y4TxPLET6Cu2I7arMAlWaM7Hb-U-6Ch0rzZ1VEKxBG4earJpZ5RGOo2yYHeV4=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40protonmail=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6656114930922558833==" --===============6656114930922558833== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: segaloco via TUHS > Subject: [TUHS] Pixel 100/AP UNIX Computer > Date: June 7, 2023 at 12:17:14 AM PDT > To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society >=20 > After talking with the folks I bought the recent documents from, they let m= e know they are also selling a piece of hardware: https://www.ebay.com/itm/12= 5714380860 >=20 > After the link is an auction for an Instrumentation Laboratory Pixel 100/AP= . A small booklet included with the many documents I received indicates as o= f 1982 the Pixel 100/AP ran a System III derivative. The booklet goes on to = present a summary of user commands and options. Despite the System III basis= , included among these are the C shell and ex/vi. >=20 > I have no room for hardware or honestly at that price point it'd be worth t= he preservation effort. Hopefully it finds a good home, it includes an almos= t complete documentation set save for the small booklet I've got (which could= be separate promo material for all I know) >=20 > In any case, there were a few letters amongst the documents suggesting the = original owner was involved in the production of this system, particularly in= the area of OS details. If I find any noteworthy information I'll pass it a= long. >=20 > - Matt G. >=20 > P.S. If anyone knows of a preservation effort accepting new machines I can = pass this along. This was originally posted to =E2=80=9CThe Unix Historical Society=E2=80=9D e= mail list and I asked the original author for permission to forward it here. If anyone is interested in such equipment. David There are two ways to write error-free programs; only the third works. --Alan J. Perlis David Barto barto(a)kdbarto.org --===============6656114930922558833==-- From ylee@columbia.edu Wed Jun 7 20:52:32 2023 From: Yeechang Lee To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 13:47:09 -0700 Message-ID: <25728.60621.902879.864040@dobie-old.ylee.org> In-Reply-To: <01ac01d998a5$76387ea0$62a97be0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6852751059078729896==" --===============6852751059078729896== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom Gardner says: > May I suggest compatibility is like pregnancy =E2=80=93 you either are or > you are not. Agreed. This is why every non-highly compatible MS-DOS computer, like the Tan= dy 2000 and TI Professional, failed versus IBM. Even if a buyer only intended= to use Lotus=E2=80=94widely ported to various MS-DOS non-compatibles=E2=80= =94he would always have in the back of his mind "What if I want to run someth= ing else? What if I need to give a disk with data to someone with IBM?" > Hyperion never purported to be PC-DOS compatible and as noted it > wasn=E2=80=99t even offered as generic MS-DOS compatible. I was amazed to not see on Santo's February 1984 list of Hyperion-certified c= ompatible software Lotus or Flight Simulator. The latter, I can understand. T= he former made Hyperion dead on arrival. --=20 geo:37.783333,-122.416667 --===============6852751059078729896==-- From ylee@columbia.edu Wed Jun 7 20:59:54 2023 From: Yeechang Lee To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 13:59:47 -0700 Message-ID: <25728.61379.795790.441968@dobie-old.ylee.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0458892973247230336==" --===============0458892973247230336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable db says: > As we were painfully made aware when people tried to run comm > programs and they didn't work because we used the Z8530 to get dual > serial ports. Hyperion was not alone in having trouble with comm ports. Columbia University= (my alma mater) reported in January 1984 that unmodified Kermit ran on Compa= q and Columbia PCs, but Eagle and Seequa needed custom code. I highly recommend the Kermit mailing list archives ; it contains massive amounts of information for= anyone interested in classic computers. --=20 geo:37.783333,-122.416667 --===============0458892973247230336==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Wed Jun 7 21:14:31 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 14:14:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <25728.61379.795790.441968@dobie-old.ylee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0806292610448705923==" --===============0806292610448705923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jun 7, 2023, 1:59 PM Yeechang Lee via cctalk wrote: > db says: > > As we were painfully made aware when people tried to run comm > > programs and they didn't work because we used the Z8530 to get dual > > serial ports. > > Hyperion was not alone in having trouble with comm ports. Columbia > University (my alma mater) reported in January 1984 that unmodified Kermit > ran on Compaq and Columbia PCs, but Eagle and Seequa needed custom code. > > I highly recommend the Kermit mailing list archives < > http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ftp/e/info-kermit.txt>; it contains > massive amounts of information for anyone interested in classic computers. > The DEC Rainbow also hit these issues and needed its own custom version of kermit... Warner -- > geo:37.783333,-122.416667 > --===============0806292610448705923==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 21:33:37 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 17:33:32 -0400 Message-ID: <1393c529-0289-a28d-97e4-82a61dd3e501@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6408479484900771287==" --===============6408479484900771287== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-06-07 17:14, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jun 7, 2023, 1:59 PM Yeechang Lee via cctalk > wrote: > >> db says: >>> As we were painfully made aware when people tried to run comm >>> programs and they didn't work because we used the Z8530 to get dual >>> serial ports. >> Hyperion was not alone in having trouble with comm ports. Columbia >> University (my alma mater) reported in January 1984 that unmodified Kermit >> ran on Compaq and Columbia PCs, but Eagle and Seequa needed custom code. >> >> I highly recommend the Kermit mailing list archives< http://www.columbia.e= du/kermit/ftp/e/info-kermit.txt>; it contains >> massive amounts of information for anyone interested in classic computers. >> > The DEC Rainbow also hit these issues and needed its own custom version of > kermit... > > Warner > > But IIRC the DEC Rainbow never claimed to be IBM-compatible.=C2=A0 The very=20 lack of the 640mB limit and the video processor that enabled it which=20 let me run my company's spreadsheet without LIM memory proves that! --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============6408479484900771287==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 7 23:37:34 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 16:37:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <25728.60621.902879.864040@dobie-old.ylee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7753009788866691520==" --===============7753009788866691520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> May I suggest compatibility is like pregnancy – you either are or >> you are not. On Wed, 7 Jun 2023, Yeechang Lee via cctalk wrote: > Agreed. This is why every non-highly compatible MS-DOS computer, like > the Tandy 2000 and TI Professional, failed versus IBM. Even if a buyer > only intended to use Lotus—widely ported to various MS-DOS > non-compatibles—he would always have in the back of his mind "What if > I want to run something else? What if I need to give a disk with data to > someone with IBM?" Agreed. I ended up with a couple of Toshiba T300? machines. 80 track drives, and it could read 360K disks, but not RE-write sectors properly, and its native 80 track format was unreadble on PC without additional software. It had CGA video, but with the CGA video memory at segment B000h, instead of the usual B800h. Commercial software would not do MONO direct video, bacause it saw that it was CGA, so it would try to write to segment B800h. I easily configured PC-WRITE for the non-standard video address, and used them for a few years as dedicated word-processing logging machines. Then, Toshib NMRI in Silicon Valley needed to be able to handle Toshiba 80 track format disks for communication with home office, so I gave the T300s to them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7753009788866691520==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 7 23:41:05 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 16:40:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <25728.61379.795790.441968@dobie-old.ylee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6817032013315788590==" --===============6817032013315788590== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 7 Jun 2023, Yeechang Lee via cctalk wrote: > Hyperion was not alone in having trouble with comm ports. Columbia > University (my alma mater) reported in January 1984 that unmodified > Kermit ran on Compaq and Columbia PCs, but Eagle and Seequa needed > custom code. This is the first that I'v seen anybody with Seequa! The "Seequa Chameleon 325" was the only commercial PC to have 3.25" disk drives! (the format that Dysan bet the company on and went under) I haven't heard how many, if any, of the 325 models were ever built or sold. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6817032013315788590==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Thu Jun 8 00:09:19 2023 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CPT Phoenix Jr system unit? Monitor and Keyboard Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 17:09:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL3P223MB0289F1AA885B9DF0EA871865C67A9=40BL3P223MB?= =?utf-8?q?0289=2ENAMP223=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1953872490048404919==" --===============1953872490048404919== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry I missed this, you only sent it to the list and I haven't looked at the= list for a while. I've actually just acquired a CPT Phoenix Jr. computer to = go with my display and keyboard, so I now have a full system that I'm plannin= g to restore and use. In what way has your display failed? If it's dim a CRT rejuvenator might do t= he trick. And if it's just stopped working, it may just need a recap. I'd onl= y give up on it if the tube is necked or the yoke damaged and a new tube coul= dn't be sourced... That said, do you have any boot, utility, or other disks archived that the re= st of us could use with a system? -- Chris --===============1953872490048404919==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:19:55 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 19:19:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2141939313832109185==" --===============2141939313832109185== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 4:41=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 7 Jun 2023, Yeechang Lee via cctalk wrote: > > Hyperion was not alone in having trouble with comm ports. Columbia > > University (my alma mater) reported in January 1984 that unmodified > > Kermit ran on Compaq and Columbia PCs, but Eagle and Seequa needed > > custom code. > > This is the first that I'v seen anybody with Seequa! > > The "Seequa Chameleon 325" was the only commercial PC to have 3.25" disk > drives! (the format that Dysan bet the company on and went under) > I haven't heard how many, if any, of the 325 models were ever built or > sold. > I can't remember if I ever added a Seequa Chameleon to my collection. Definitely more rare than the Otrona Attache. Didn't the Gavilan also use 3.25" disks? I'm pretty sure I still have a Gavilan...somewhere. Sellam --===============2141939313832109185==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jun 8 02:52:40 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Gavilan (Was: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 19:52:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3238686494883851344==" --===============3238686494883851344== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> Hyperion was not alone in having trouble with comm ports. Columbia >>> University (my alma mater) reported in January 1984 that unmodified >>> Kermit ran on Compaq and Columbia PCs, but Eagle and Seequa needed >>> custom code. >> This is the first that I'v seen anybody with Seequa! >> The "Seequa Chameleon 325" was the only commercial PC to have 3.25" disk >> drives! (the format that Dysan bet the company on and went under) >> I haven't heard how many, if any, of the 325 models were ever built or >> sold. On Wed, 7 Jun 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I can't remember if I ever added a Seequa Chameleon to my collection. > Definitely more rare than the Otrona Attache. > Didn't the Gavilan also use 3.25" disks? > I'm pretty sure I still have a Gavilan...somewhere. No 3.25" for Gavilan. The Gavilan started out with 320K 3" disks; I don't remember what brand of=20 drive (there weren't many), nor the details of the format that they used. They then switched to single sided 3.5", using a Shugart SA300 drive, but=20 with Gavilan's custom curved faceplate on it. I was able to mount a=20 double sided drive of a different brand in it, without faceplate. But, once I got hold of some Shugart SA350 double sided drives, I could=20 switch the Gavilan faceplate onto those. Towards the end (Gavilan went under), they started to support double sided=20 3.5", with MS-DOS 2.11J? but their disk format was not the same format as=20 the 720K that IBM came up with for DOS 3.20 . (A few companies used 3.5" drives, with customization of MS-DOS 2.11 The first version of MS-DOS or PC-DOS to have built in support of 3.5"=20 720K was 3.20)=20 After Gavilan went under the Gavilan MS-DOS 2.11K and 2.11L were leaked=20 out, and supported the IBM 720K format. The external 5.25" drive was 360K. The printer was thermal and ink, so it could use plain paper, or thermal=20 paper, such as that for the Silent 700. Thermal plus ink gave good=20 quality. The bubble memory cartridges never caught on. The early Gavilans, as introduced at NCC 1983, were 8 line by 80 LCD=20 screen, then they switched to 16 line. Both had an RCA for composite externa= l monitor. Uncle Roger got several totes of my Gavilan stuff. A friend used a Gavilan, with external monitor for years as a=20 "compatible". There is a possibility that she might still have it. I still have never heard of a machine other than the Seequa Chameleon 325=20 that came with 3.25" drives, although a number of people hooked those=20 drives to PC. After MicroPro gave up on any Dysan distribution of=20 WordStar, I got some of their drives, alignment disks (many of which they=20 had ended up using as scratch disks!), etc. I doubt that anybody here needs/wants a repeat of the saga of the battle=20 of shirt pocket disks, and how Dysan bet the company and lost. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3238686494883851344==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Thu Jun 8 03:03:36 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 03:03:13 +0000 Message-ID: <1782899478.743384.1686193393025@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2614230880476204608==" --===============2614230880476204608== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dimmemory Selliam... that computer would run=C2=A0 pm.or msdos on saMe box. O= r 8band 16bit... bal in 80s eone how ended up with=C2=A0 one..=C2=A0Only one = I ever saw...ED#=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SMECC Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 7:19 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 4:41=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk= wrote: > On Wed, 7 Jun 2023, Yeechang Lee via cctalk wrote: > > Hyperion was not alone in having trouble with comm ports. Columbia > > University (my alma mater) reported in January 1984 that unmodified > > Kermit ran on Compaq and Columbia PCs, but Eagle and Seequa needed > > custom code. > > This is the first that I'v seen anybody with Seequa! > > The "Seequa Chameleon 325" was the only commercial PC to have 3.25" disk > drives!=C2=A0 (the format that Dysan bet the company on and went under) > I haven't heard how many, if any, of the 325 models were ever built or > sold. > I can't remember if I ever added a Seequa Chameleon to my collection. Definitely more rare than the Otrona Attache. Didn't the Gavilan also use 3.25" disks? I'm pretty sure I still have a Gavilan...somewhere. Sellam =20 --===============2614230880476204608==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 03:06:28 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 20:06:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <58B21663-171A-4CE4-AD43-49939015536B@typewritten.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8397956642799224829==" --===============8397956642799224829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 11:54=E2=80=AFAM r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > > > On Jun 7, 2023, at 11:26 AM, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > > > > Hello! > > > > I have an IBM 6152 aka IBM RT system I rescued. (It may be a 6151?) > > You have a 6151, the 6152 has VGA graphics (is built inside a PS/2 Model 60) > > > I'm 90% sure it has colour graphics. The system does seem to POST > > correctly (according to the LED on the front) but the CRT is dead. I'm > > wondering if anyone has built an adapter to hook this to a VGA > > monitor. > > You=E2=80=99re going to run into trouble, then, as the video signal is comp= letely incompatible with a normal VGA multisync monitor. It=E2=80=99s TTL col= or, interlaced, with a horizontal scan frequency less than 31kHz. 720x512 int= erlaced. > > The RT knows how to use a =E2=80=9Cstandard=E2=80=9D IBM PC MDA or EGA adap= ter. Might be better off using one of those instead, at least for now. > > ok > bear. All of the IBM RT 6151 systems I saw years ago (ugh, 36 years ago now...) must have all had Megapel display adapters attached to monochrome or grayscale monitors. That was the early days of Project Athena and X11. At the time they seemed like reasonably nice systems, comparable to the more common VAXstation 2000 systems. I imagine if you have an IBM RT 6151 system now without a Megapel display adapter, it would probably be difficult to find one. --===============8397956642799224829==-- From cctalk@classiccmp.org Thu Jun 8 05:18:16 2023 From: Yeechang Lee To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 14:50:44 -0700 Message-ID: <25728.64436.30247.698570@dobie-old.ylee.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1176186773240983398==" --===============1176186773240983398== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Warner Losh says: > The DEC Rainbow also hit these issues and needed its own custom > version of kermit... Yes, but DEC did not claim that Rainbow is fully PC compatible. Eagle and See= qua did. --=20 geo:37.783333,-122.416667 --===============1176186773240983398==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Thu Jun 8 05:33:01 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 23:32:44 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <25728.64436.30247.698570@dobie-old.ylee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6921335350448154260==" --===============6921335350448154260== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 11:18 PM Yeechang Lee via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Warner Losh says: > > The DEC Rainbow also hit these issues and needed its own custom > > version of kermit... > > Yes, but DEC did not claim that Rainbow is fully PC compatible. Eagle and > Seequa did. > True. It was some years later that we got code blue on the Rainbow to run IBM stuff.... Except even that wasn't completely there... And Yes, it was one reason I got it: it could have more memory than the PC, and that came in handy for some of the stuff I wound up doing with mine... Warner --===============6921335350448154260==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 10:12:54 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 06:12:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8758487187193203739==" --===============8758487187193203739== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 2:26=E2=80=AFPM Jonathan Katz via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have an IBM 6152 aka IBM RT system I rescued. (It may be a 6151?) > I'm 90% sure it has colour graphics. The system does seem to POST > correctly (according to the LED on the front) but the CRT is dead. I'm > wondering if anyone has built an adapter to hook this to a VGA > monitor. > > Do you have the Megapel adapter in your 6151 with the 3W3 connector? I have one in my 6150 and I was able to connect it to a VGA monitor (NEC Multisync) and I think I only created an adapter to go from 3W3 to Red, Green and Blue RCA plugs (component) that then went into a simple RGB component to VGA wired adapter (about 6 inches long) I already had. Part of the magic might be in that multisync monitor though. Here it is running AIX: https://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/IBM_PC_RT_running_AIX.j= pg I got the 3W3 connector and parts from Digikey. Here's what that looks like: https://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/IBM_RT_3W3_RGB-rotated.= jpg Please forgive the crude construction. I didn't think it would work but it did. Here is the RGB component to VGA adapter I also used: https://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/RGB2VGAadapter.jpg Hope this helps. Santo --===============8758487187193203739==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Thu Jun 8 11:34:54 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 07:34:44 -0400 Message-ID: <243967a6-8df0-5094-1543-218d5820fd4e@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2896749148900728159==" --===============2896749148900728159== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-06-08 06:12, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > I got the 3W3 connector and parts from Digikey. Here's what that looks > like: > https://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/IBM_RT_3W3_RGB-rotate= d.jpg > Please forgive the crude construction. I didn't think it would work but it > did. You still have the part numbers? --===============2896749148900728159==-- From santo.nucifora@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 12:20:25 2023 From: Santo Nucifora To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 08:20:09 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <243967a6-8df0-5094-1543-218d5820fd4e@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0723788768393563644==" --===============0723788768393563644== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking back, I did buy one from Digikey but it was not the right one. I bought mine from this ebay auction: https://www.ebay.com/itm/171649843131 Specifically, the "D-SUB 3W3 Male" item. I did not install the three metal coax covers that come with it. The end looks like this: https://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/IBM_RT_3W3_end.jpg Hope this helps. Santo On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 7:34=E2=80=AFAM emanuel stiebler wr= ote: > On 2023-06-08 06:12, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > > > I got the 3W3 connector and parts from Digikey. Here's what that looks > > like: > > > https://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/IBM_RT_3W3_RGB-rotate= d.jpg > > Please forgive the crude construction. I didn't think it would work but > it > > did. > > You still have the part numbers? > > --===============0723788768393563644==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Thu Jun 8 15:43:10 2023 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 11:43:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <168598916670.1516385.3754228109115453860@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8269963910409824280==" --===============8269963910409824280== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Someone did a paper-slitter in this thread https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/paper-tape-punch-service-and-reques= t.1242805/page-2#post-1319033 On Mon, Jun 05, 2023 at 06:19:26PM -0000, robotguy(a)gmail.com wrote: > For various reasons (including, but not limited to, insanity and obsessiven= ess*) I am building a diode laser based tape punch. It's not specifically for= a classic comp, but I'd like to stick with standard format so that it'd be u= seful for making custom tapes for members in the future. I will probably need= to make dozens of tapes so using actual, vintage rolls is out of the questio= n. Does anyone know if 1" tape is used for anything else and where I might fi= nd some new? Otherwise I may have to add paper-slitter to my project list and= make my own. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > *I've had the idea of a lost-media ARG stuck in my head for years. >=20 > ------------------------------ --===============8269963910409824280==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 15:52:52 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 16:52:35 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1745339828587230587==" --===============1745339828587230587== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think paper-slitters are pretty common. That is to say, if you go to anyone manufacturing adding machine rolls they will have the capability to make custom widths in rather small job lots. It's an industry comparable with printing (and often combined, for when till rolls with custom printing is desired). So it may be that although paper tape is no longer available from computer stationary suppliers, it can very easily be made in quite small MOQs. I don't know this for sure and I haven't called anyone, it's just a recollection from when my father ran a stationary business that till rolls aren't always high-volume products from till manufacturers but low-volume customised supplies made very flexibly. On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 4:43=E2=80=AFPM David Gesswein via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Someone did a paper-slitter in this thread > > > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/paper-tape-punch-service-and-requ= est.1242805/page-2#post-1319033 > > On Mon, Jun 05, 2023 at 06:19:26PM -0000, robotguy(a)gmail.com wrote: > > For various reasons (including, but not limited to, insanity and > obsessiveness*) I am building a diode laser based tape punch. It's not > specifically for a classic comp, but I'd like to stick with standard format > so that it'd be useful for making custom tapes for members in the future. I > will probably need to make dozens of tapes so using actual, vintage rolls > is out of the question. Does anyone know if 1" tape is used for anything > else and where I might find some new? Otherwise I may have to add > paper-slitter to my project list and make my own. > > > > > > > > > > *I've had the idea of a lost-media ARG stuck in my head for years. > > > > ------------------------------ > --===============1745339828587230587==-- From kiwi_jonathan@yahoo.com Thu Jun 8 16:06:53 2023 From: Jonathan Stone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 16:06:46 +0000 Message-ID: <767961914.333560.1686240406836@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5635818345420133323==" --===============5635818345420133323== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 05:20:28 AM PDT, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > I bought mine from this ebay auction:=C2=A0 https://www.ebay.com/itm/171649= 843131 >Specifically, the "D-SUB 3W3 Male" item.=C2=A0 [...] Note these are 50 Ohm impedance. I always assumed the OEM originals were 75 O= hm. I've not been able to find 75 Ohm equivalents in the past 3 years I've been l= ooking. OTOH I'm not a hardware person, I have no idea if a ~1.5cm-long connector mat= ters, especially if it's connected to a non-coaxial VGA cable, then to the VG= A input of a multi-sync flat panel display. (I'm not sufficiently retro to wa= nt to go back to carrying 19in sync-on-green CRTs) =20 --===============5635818345420133323==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jun 8 16:10:51 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 09:10:28 -0700 Message-ID: <1cde2171-f60b-f6d3-35a4-0944f4bbd58a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7247141735754398841==" --===============7247141735754398841== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/8/23 08:52, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > I think paper-slitters are pretty common. That is to say, if you go to > anyone manufacturing adding machine rolls they will have the capability to > make custom widths in rather small job lots. It's an industry comparable > with printing (and often combined, for when till rolls with custom printing > is desired). So it may be that although paper tape is no longer available > from computer stationary suppliers, it can very easily be made in quite > small MOQs. How does one, using modern equipment, both slit and perforate (feed holes) blank tape? Color me curious. --Chuck --===============7247141735754398841==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 16:21:51 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 17:21:36 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1cde2171-f60b-f6d3-35a4-0944f4bbd58a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4816618652638371485==" --===============4816618652638371485== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A slitter is a wide paper feed system with sharp-edged pulleys over which it passes. There are quite a few videos of this on youtube, it's surprisingly well documented. Because slitter manufacturers are selling to mom-and-pop outfits. I think the tape is supplied unpunched and the tape punch makes both feed holes and data holes. I could be wrong. On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/8/23 08:52, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > > I think paper-slitters are pretty common. That is to say, if you go to > > anyone manufacturing adding machine rolls they will have the capability > to > > make custom widths in rather small job lots. It's an industry comparable > > with printing (and often combined, for when till rolls with custom > printing > > is desired). So it may be that although paper tape is no longer available > > from computer stationary suppliers, it can very easily be made in quite > > small MOQs. > > How does one, using modern equipment, both slit and perforate (feed > holes) blank tape? Color me curious. > > --Chuck > --===============4816618652638371485==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Jun 8 16:32:49 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 11:32:38 -0500 Message-ID: <1de7e667-768d-2ca3-d1e3-e7e1eda48d56@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <767961914.333560.1686240406836@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6830846500946616610==" --===============6830846500946616610== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/8/23 11:06, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 05:20:28 AM PDT, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > >> I bought mine from this ebay auction:https://www.ebay.com/itm/171649843131 >> Specifically, the "D-SUB 3W3 Male" item. > [...] > > Note these are 50 Ohm impedance. I always assumed the OEM originals were 75= Ohm. > I've not been able to find 75 Ohm equivalents in the past 3 years I've been= looking. > > OTOH I'm not a hardware person, I have no idea if a ~1.5cm-long connector m= atters, especially if it's connected to a non-coaxial VGA cable, then to the = VGA input of a multi-sync flat panel display. (I'm not sufficiently retro to = want to go back to carrying 19in sync-on-green CRTs) A 1.5" long pigtail of the wrong impedance would have very=20 little effect if the pixel clock is under 100 MHz.=C2=A0 A 2 M=20 long VGA cable with a bunch of wires in a shield DEFINITELY=20 causes visible artifacts on a mid-frequency VGA.=C2=A0 A long=20 time ago I actually had to make my own VGA cables with HD15=20 connectors and RG-178 cable, because stock cables were total=20 crap! Jon --===============6830846500946616610==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Thu Jun 8 16:34:31 2023 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 12:34:04 -0400 Message-ID: <07e201d99a27$0a3e08e0$1eba1aa0$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <1cde2171-f60b-f6d3-35a4-0944f4bbd58a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4452372127948324002==" --===============4452372127948324002== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The punch (on an ASR33 anyway) punches the feed (center) holes. All the roll= s I have are completely unperforated. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2023 12:10 PM To: Adrian Godwin via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape On 6/8/23 08:52, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > I think paper-slitters are pretty common. That is to say, if you go to=20 > anyone manufacturing adding machine rolls they will have the=20 > capability to make custom widths in rather small job lots. It's an=20 > industry comparable with printing (and often combined, for when till=20 > rolls with custom printing is desired). So it may be that although=20 > paper tape is no longer available from computer stationary suppliers,=20 > it can very easily be made in quite small MOQs. How does one, using modern equipment, both slit and perforate (feed holes) blank tape? Color me curious. --Chuck --=20 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============4452372127948324002==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jun 8 16:50:09 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 12:49:41 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <767961914.333560.1686240406836@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5539043483097572909==" --===============5539043483097572909== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 8, 2023, at 12:06 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 05:20:28 AM PDT, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> I bought mine from this ebay auction: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1716498431= 31 >> Specifically, the "D-SUB 3W3 Male" item.=20 >=20 > [...] >=20 > Note these are 50 Ohm impedance. I always assumed the OEM originals were 75= Ohm. > I've not been able to find 75 Ohm equivalents in the past 3 years I've been= looking. >=20 > OTOH I'm not a hardware person, I have no idea if a ~1.5cm-long connector m= atters, especially if it's connected to a non-coaxial VGA cable, then to the = VGA input of a multi-sync flat panel display. (I'm not sufficiently retro to = want to go back to carrying 19in sync-on-green CRTs) Normal VGA connectors are DE-15, which have no defined impedance in the first= place. No, short unmatched segments like that don't matter at all, not at V= GA frequencies. If a cable claims to be VGA but isn't coax I would call it fake. An actual c= able carrying video signals does need to be coax, and does need to be the cor= rect impedance (i.e., 75 ohms).=20 paul --===============5539043483097572909==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Thu Jun 8 16:51:48 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 16:51:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <07e201d99a27$0a3e08e0$1eba1aa0$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9130462339373169473==" --===============9130462339373169473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The puches I have knowledge of do all 9 holes. Similarly, the blank tape stock (of my acquaintance) is unpunched. Martin -----Original Message----- From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 08 June 2023 17:34 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: William Sudbrink Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape The punch (on an ASR33 anyway) punches the feed (center) holes. All the roll= s I have are completely unperforated. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2023 12:10 PM To: Adrian Godwin via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape On 6/8/23 08:52, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > I think paper-slitters are pretty common. That is to say, if you go to=20 > anyone manufacturing adding machine rolls they will have the=20 > capability to make custom widths in rather small job lots. It's an=20 > industry comparable with printing (and often combined, for when till=20 > rolls with custom printing is desired). So it may be that although=20 > paper tape is no longer available from computer stationary suppliers,=20 > it can very easily be made in quite small MOQs. How does one, using modern equipment, both slit and perforate (feed holes) blank tape? Color me curious. --Chuck -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============9130462339373169473==-- From travispierce70@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 16:58:14 2023 From: Travis Pierce To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 10:57:54 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <07e201d99a27$0a3e08e0$1eba1aa0$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1017688103529820555==" --===============1017688103529820555== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a few saved searches on eBay. I think these are not a bad price. https://www.ebay.com/itm/392994905002 My GNT4601 punches the guide holes and uses unperforated tape too. On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 10:34 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The punch (on an ASR33 anyway) punches the feed (center) holes. All the > rolls I have are completely unperforated. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2023 12:10 PM > To: Adrian Godwin via cctalk > Cc: Chuck Guzis > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape > > On 6/8/23 08:52, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > > I think paper-slitters are pretty common. That is to say, if you go to > > anyone manufacturing adding machine rolls they will have the > > capability to make custom widths in rather small job lots. It's an > > industry comparable with printing (and often combined, for when till > > rolls with custom printing is desired). So it may be that although > > paper tape is no longer available from computer stationary suppliers, > > it can very easily be made in quite small MOQs. > > How does one, using modern equipment, both slit and perforate (feed > holes) blank tape? Color me curious. > > --Chuck > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > --===============1017688103529820555==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jun 8 17:01:25 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 13:01:09 -0400 Message-ID: <383CEA10-47A7-4E13-BFDD-5FB32CC285FF@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0988912773116791876==" --===============0988912773116791876== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 8, 2023, at 12:21 PM, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > A slitter is a wide paper feed system with sharp-edged pulleys over which > it passes. There are quite a few videos of this on youtube, it's > surprisingly well documented. Because slitter manufacturers are selling to > mom-and-pop outfits. >=20 > I think the tape is supplied unpunched and the tape punch makes both feed > holes and data holes. I could be wrong. That's right. Getting tape made to order might come in handy if you want odd sizes. 5 and = 8 channel tape is fairly common, but there was also 6 and 7 channel tape (in = widths specific to those types) which is far less common. I haven't seen 6 c= hannel tape since the 1970s when it was still used in typesetting equipment, = and I never heard of 7 channel tape until recently (it was used on some 1960s= era machines). I wonder if mylar tape for punching could be found, or made. That was seen o= ccasionally, for applications where a tape needed to be read many times. An = OS binary tape might want that. I also remember seeing it on a machine in my= father's lab, where it contained correction factors for a piece of precision= machinery. There seem to be two types of that tape: one is just mylar, shin= y, often metallized to make it reliably opaque for optical readers. The othe= r is a paper/mylar/paper sandwich that feels like plain paper tape but is muc= h stronger. I'm not sure where that was used. Perhaps in machines that like= d oil, such as Teletype machinery. paul --===============0988912773116791876==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jun 8 17:06:01 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 10:05:49 -0700 Message-ID: <27de4d84-beee-a4a5-7c4b-74f67655a44d@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3893537598902783609==" --===============3893537598902783609== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/8/23 09:51, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > The puches I have knowledge of do all 9 holes. > Similarly, the blank tape stock (of my acquaintance) is unpunched. That would figure in why I occasionally see tapes with irregularly-spaced feed holes. That clears that mystery up. Instead of plain paper tape, is there any objection to Mylar- or Mylar-coated tape? I note that several manufacturers recommend it. --Chuck --===============3893537598902783609==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jun 8 17:13:40 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 13:13:32 -0400 Message-ID: <13FB682F-C1C2-4CD3-A32F-462E52C0DE59@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <27de4d84-beee-a4a5-7c4b-74f67655a44d@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5915657791512192836==" --===============5915657791512192836== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 8, 2023, at 1:05 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 6/8/23 09:51, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >> The puches I have knowledge of do all 9 holes. >> Similarly, the blank tape stock (of my acquaintance) is unpunched. >=20 > That would figure in why I occasionally see tapes with > irregularly-spaced feed holes. That clears that mystery up. Ouch, that would be a case of a badly maintained punch. If you feed such tap= es into a reader that uses a sprocket feed wheel you'd have trouble. If it's= an optical reader with a plain wheel (friction feed) it will probably work o= k if the spacing errors are not so bad that they throw off the timing. > Instead of plain paper tape, is there any objection to Mylar- or > Mylar-coated tape? I note that several manufacturers recommend it. I just did a Google search for "cnc punch tape" and an ebay sale for new myla= r tape (1000 foot rolls) popped up. That should work great if your punch can= punch it reliably. I'm not sure if all of them do. Mylar tape is much stro= nger, so it's great for tapes that are read many times, but that's probably n= ot much of a consideration for modern hobby usage. It might explain why the = stuff shows up when you look at CNC applications, though -- between the need = to be able to do series production, and the abuse things get in a shop floor = setting... paul --===============5915657791512192836==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 17:18:42 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 18:18:26 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <383CEA10-47A7-4E13-BFDD-5FB32CC285FF@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1254080746696603497==" --===============1254080746696603497== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 6:01 PM Paul Koning wrote: > I wonder if mylar tape for punching could be found, or made. That was > seen occasionally, for applications where a tape needed to be read many > times. An OS binary tape might want that. I also remember seeing it on a > machine in my father's lab, where it contained correction factors for a > piece of precision machinery. > I've seen mylar tape used in a tiny loop where it controlled the movements of a printer platen. I don't recall now whether it was used for horizontal or vertical space - my recollection was the latter but it was a long time ago. I don't know why it wasn't controlled by ASCII - a good bit of the character set is dedicated to print head control. I think a different tape had to be installed to match the program that was being run. The machine was used for accountancy in about 1975, It was a bit like a large LA120 (but included the calculating part) and made by the french Logabax company. I worked in a manufacturing plant around 1985 where the (new) pick-and-place machine was controlled by a paper tape. The tape was punched on an ASR33 or similar. It seemed like an obsolete solution even though only just installed. I bought a very nice surplus Facit tape punch from a classified ad in Wireless World, built a serial to parallel interface and allowed the machine programmer to create the source on a word processor (which was our manufactured product) instead. --===============1254080746696603497==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jun 8 17:39:53 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 10:39:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0701819447873909396==" --===============0701819447873909396== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/8/23 10:18, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > I've seen mylar tape used in a tiny loop where it controlled the movements > of a printer platen. I don't recall now whether it was used for horizontal > or vertical space - my recollection was the latter but it was a long time > ago. The 12-channel tape used on line printers (e.g. IBM 1403), was, IIRC, Mylar-coated. Much wider than regular 1" paper tape, however. --Chuck --===============0701819447873909396==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 17:46:33 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 13:46:27 -0400 Message-ID: <91bf6096-c4ae-8ef3-e269-20401dc4faf2@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0528925402171384351==" --===============0528925402171384351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IIRC the Centronics 101 printers did this.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It was for vertical sp= acing=20 - you could put different loops in for different form lengths. I used to service them (mostly replacing heads) but never operated :-) cheers, Nigel On 2023-06-08 13:18, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 6:01=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning wrote: > >> I wonder if mylar tape for punching could be found, or made. That was >> seen occasionally, for applications where a tape needed to be read many >> times. An OS binary tape might want that. I also remember seeing it on a >> machine in my father's lab, where it contained correction factors for a >> piece of precision machinery. >> > I've seen mylar tape used in a tiny loop where it controlled the movements > of a printer platen. I don't recall now whether it was used for horizontal > or vertical space - my recollection was the latter but it was a long time > ago. > > I don't know why it wasn't controlled by ASCII - a good bit of the > character set is dedicated to print head control. I think a different tape > had to be installed to match the program that was being run. The machine > was used for accountancy in about 1975, It was a bit like a large LA120 > (but included the calculating part) and made by the french Logabax company. > > I worked in a manufacturing plant around 1985 where the (new) > pick-and-place machine was controlled by a paper tape. The tape was punched > on an ASR33 or similar. It seemed like an obsolete solution even though > only just installed. I bought a very nice surplus Facit tape punch from a > classified ad in Wireless World, built a serial to parallel interface and > allowed the machine programmer to create the source on a word processor > (which was our manufactured product) instead. --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============0528925402171384351==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Thu Jun 8 17:52:27 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 17:52:17 +0000 Message-ID: <1532650602.900076.1686246737100@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6298253600315121903==" --===============6298253600315121903== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pun h makes all=C2=A0 holesEd#=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SMECC=C2=A0 Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 9:21 AM, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: A slitter is a wide paper feed system with sharp-edged pulley= s over which it passes. There are quite a few videos of this on youtube, it's surprisingly well documented. Because slitter manufacturers are selling to mom-and-pop outfits. I think the tape is supplied unpunched and the tape punch makes both feed holes and data holes. I could be wrong. On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/8/23 08:52, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > > I think paper-slitters are pretty common. That is to say, if you go to > > anyone manufacturing adding machine rolls they will have the capability > to > > make custom widths in rather small job lots. It's an industry comparable > > with printing (and often combined, for when till rolls with custom > printing > > is desired). So it may be that although paper tape is no longer available > > from computer stationary suppliers, it can very easily be made in quite > > small MOQs. > > How does one, using modern equipment, both slit and perforate (feed > holes) blank tape?=C2=A0 Color me curious. > > --Chuck > =20 --===============6298253600315121903==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jun 8 18:14:04 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 14:13:55 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8055988179098002276==" --===============8055988179098002276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 8, 2023, at 1:18 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote: >=20 > ... > I've seen mylar tape used in a tiny loop where it controlled the movements = of a printer platen. I don't recall now whether it was used for horizontal or= vertical space - my recollection was the latter but it was a long time ago. = >=20 > I don't know why it wasn't controlled by ASCII - a good bit of the characte= r set is dedicated to print head control. I think a different tape had to be = installed to match the program that was being run. The machine was used for a= ccountancy in about 1975, It was a bit like a large LA120 (but included the c= alculating part) and made by the french Logabax company. Many line printers used a "VFD" tape (vertical format definition?) which is a= 12-channel tape with one row per line on the paper. The idea was that you c= ould tell the printer "skip to channel N" and it would advance the paper unti= l a hole in that channel was seen. By convention, channel 1 marks the top of= the page, and in fact typically that position was punched all the way across= so a skip to an "unused" channel would not produce runaway paper. Channels = other than 1 would be used for custom forms, where it would save time to skip= across part of the form rather than advancing line by line to the desired sp= ot. If you only ever used regular size paper this stuff wouldn't be obvious, but = an operator who had to handle other forms, like checks or label stock or anyt= hing else that wasn't just plain 60/66 line pages, would have to change the p= aper along with the matching format tape. Some printers had small local memo= ries that could be downloaded with the form definition tape data, avoiding th= e need for the operator to switch the tape manually. paul --===============8055988179098002276==-- From ylee@columbia.edu Thu Jun 8 18:20:36 2023 From: Yeechang Lee To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 11:20:28 -0700 Message-ID: <25730.7148.222971.972579@dobie-old.ylee.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6165000665973883420==" --===============6165000665973883420== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred Cisin says: > Then, Toshib NMRI in Silicon Valley needed to be able to handle > Toshiba 80 track format disks for communication with home office, so > I gave the T300s to them. So a Toshiba office did not have computer equipment compatible with what its = headquarters used? --=20 geo:37.783333,-122.416667 --===============6165000665973883420==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 18:26:29 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 19:26:12 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6241972295840246383==" --===============6241972295840246383== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This wasn't a large IBM lineprinter and I'm pretty sure it was 1" tape, but it may well have been inspired by those machines. It would likely have been used with custom fanfold paper for invoices, cheques etc. - certainly the same sort of customer-specific those machines dealt with, but for the small office. A predecessor to the PC. On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 7:13 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Jun 8, 2023, at 1:18 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote: > > > > ... > > I've seen mylar tape used in a tiny loop where it controlled the > movements of a printer platen. I don't recall now whether it was used for > horizontal or vertical space - my recollection was the latter but it was a > long time ago. > > > > I don't know why it wasn't controlled by ASCII - a good bit of the > character set is dedicated to print head control. I think a different tape > had to be installed to match the program that was being run. The machine > was used for accountancy in about 1975, It was a bit like a large LA120 > (but included the calculating part) and made by the french Logabax company. > > Many line printers used a "VFD" tape (vertical format definition?) which > is a 12-channel tape with one row per line on the paper. The idea was that > you could tell the printer "skip to channel N" and it would advance the > paper until a hole in that channel was seen. By convention, channel 1 > marks the top of the page, and in fact typically that position was punched > all the way across so a skip to an "unused" channel would not produce > runaway paper. Channels other than 1 would be used for custom forms, where > it would save time to skip across part of the form rather than advancing > line by line to the desired spot. > > If you only ever used regular size paper this stuff wouldn't be obvious, > but an operator who had to handle other forms, like checks or label stock > or anything else that wasn't just plain 60/66 line pages, would have to > change the paper along with the matching format tape. Some printers had > small local memories that could be downloaded with the form definition tape > data, avoiding the need for the operator to switch the tape manually. > > paul > > --===============6241972295840246383==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jun 8 19:29:59 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 12:29:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <25730.7148.222971.972579@dobie-old.ylee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4007654836285085663==" --===============4007654836285085663== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Then, Toshib NMRI in Silicon Valley needed to be able to handle >> Toshiba 80 track format disks for communication with home office, so >> I gave the T300s to them. On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, Yeechang Lee via cctalk wrote: > So a Toshiba office did not have computer equipment compatible with what it= s headquarters used? Yes The USA NMRI group had assumed that their Japanese counterparts would be=20 using PC formats, and apparently that was often/usually the case. They=20 could have asked the home office to send them machine(s), but I had some=20 handy. A friend was doing some engineering consulting for them, and was=20 thus able to solve the [very minor] problem immediately. I think that it=20 was intended to be a short-term loan while getting machine(s) shipped,=20 but I told them to keep them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4007654836285085663==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jun 8 20:15:48 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: First non-IBM PC-DOS Compatible PC Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 13:15:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <25730.7148.222971.972579@dobie-old.ylee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3316821343810550079==" --===============3316821343810550079== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Then, Toshib NMRI in Silicon Valley needed to be able to handle >> Toshiba 80 track format disks for communication with home office, so >> I gave the T300s to them. > On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, Yeechang Lee via cctalk wrote: > So a Toshiba office did not have computer equipment compatible with what it= s headquarters used? Instead, they could have bought a copy of 22Disk, XenoCopy, or Uniform. But the two T300s were cheaper. --===============3316821343810550079==-- From bdweb@mindspring.com Thu Jun 8 21:53:13 2023 From: Bjoren Davis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for information on Data General 602X magtape drive Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 16:44:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0692009834796874225==" --===============0692009834796874225== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello CCtalk, I recently bought the mortal remains of a Data General 602X magtape=20 drive on craigslist. Apparently it had been stored outside.=C2=A0 When I got it it had mudwasp=20 nests and mud all over it and everything that could rust had. When it was decomissioned it was just cut out, so it's missing its=20 chassis, hinges, controller board, power supplies, vacuum blower, vacuum=20 pressure limit switches, etc. The cables to the heads are just cut (no=20 connectors). But boy does it look cool, and it *does* have all three of its transport=20 motors and its console PCB. There's very little identifying information on the drive.=C2=A0 The front of = the drive has a label "9 TRACK 800 BPI".=C2=A0 The console PCB says=20 "COPYRIGHT =C2=A9 1973 BY DATA GENERAL CORP" "CONTROL BOARD FOR 75 I.P.S.=20 DRIVE=C2=A0=C2=A0 DGC NOVA 107-000275-17 /16" and has a sticker on the back=20 "DRAWING NO.=C2=A0 REV.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 005-005-525-02 005-001-= 743-11".=C2=A0 The date codes=20 on the few chips I can read place it from 1976.=C2=A0 I think all of this=20 adds up to this being a model 6021 or 6023. I've been slowly disassembling, cleaning, and repairing it.=C2=A0 The DG=20 documentation at bitsavers is really good, but, sadly, the schematics=20 are not available there. Does anyone have such schematics?=C2=A0 I'm especially interested in the=20 analog portion that connects to the heads, the connection to the BOT/EOT=20 sensor, and a schematic for the console board I actually do have. My goal is to replace all of the missing controller parts with some SOC=20 boards (e.g., a Teensy 4.1), ultimately to be able to use this drive to=20 read and write tapes.=C2=A0 I'd love to reuse the console board as it is.=C2= =A0=20 I've already replaced the vacuum blower with a $30 Bosch vacuum cleaner=20 I also bought on craigslist. Thanks. --Bjoren --===============0692009834796874225==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 22:06:30 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for information on Data General 602X magtape drive Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 15:06:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6983228387084275187==" --===============6983228387084275187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 2:53 PM Bjoren Davis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > When it was decomissioned it was just cut out, so it's missing its > chassis, hinges, controller board, power supplies, vacuum blower, vacuum > pressure limit switches, etc. The cables to the heads are just cut (no > connectors). So in other words, everything but the tape transport? My goal is to replace all of the missing controller parts with some SOC > boards (e.g., a Teensy 4.1), ultimately to be able to use this drive to > read and write tapes. I'd love to reuse the console board as it is. > Good luck. And I mean that sincerely. If starting with what (little) you have you end up with a working tape drive it will be quite the accomplishment. Sellam --===============6983228387084275187==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Fri Jun 9 00:09:07 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM RT Graphics Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 20:08:58 -0400 Message-ID: <00272c98-762f-5c0d-d15b-ce161dc40555@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0152845522432679942==" --===============0152845522432679942== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-06-08 08:20, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Looking back, I did buy one from Digikey but it was not the right one. > > I bought mine from this ebay auction: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/171649843131 >   Specifically, the "D-SUB 3W3 > Male" item.  I did not install the three metal coax covers that come > with it.  The end looks like this: > https://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/IBM_RT_3W3_end.jpg > > > Hope this helps. > Santo Hello Santo, looks good, just ordered some. THANKS! --===============0152845522432679942==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jun 9 11:07:05 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2023 13:06:54 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <383CEA10-47A7-4E13-BFDD-5FB32CC285FF@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0555335317195899352==" --===============0555335317195899352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, Adrian Godwin wrote: > Getting tape made to order might come in handy if you want odd sizes. > 5 and 8 channel tape is fairly common, but there was also 6 and 7 > channel tape (in widths specific to those types) which is far less > common. I haven't seen 6 channel tape since the 1970s when it was still > used in typesetting equipment, and I never heard of 7 channel tape until > recently (it was used on some 1960s era machines). 6 and 7 channel tapes should be the same width, i.e. 22.2 mm. The LGP-30 for example natively uses 7 channel tapes (was also common in the former GDR) but punches only 6 channels. Christian --===============0555335317195899352==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jun 9 11:10:10 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2023 13:09:56 +0200 Message-ID: <7e7e8cda-7c55-80b3-9d37-a1cd55472b5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2903806206458198080==" --===============2903806206458198080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The 12-channel tape used on line printers (e.g. IBM 1403), was, IIRC, > Mylar-coated. Much wider than regular 1" paper tape, however. All form control tapes I have are normal "paper" tapes. I have not seen such a mylar tape, yet. Christian --===============2903806206458198080==-- From info@schroeder-edv.de Fri Jun 9 11:50:53 2023 From: info@schroeder-edv.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for information on Data General 602X magtape drive Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2023 10:12:06 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1758889919516247254==" --===============1758889919516247254== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bjoren, nice to hear from an existing 6021 tape drive. I have the schematics on Microfiche. So I can make the pdf's. How can I send the scans to you? Where do you live? Regards Lothar --===============1758889919516247254==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jun 9 13:50:57 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2023 09:50:27 -0400 Message-ID: <8660E5A2-0832-462E-8C37-50A45A376B35@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0542991628454716880==" --===============0542991628454716880== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 9, 2023, at 7:06 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, Adrian Godwin wrote: >> Getting tape made to order might come in handy if you want odd sizes. 5 an= d 8 channel tape is fairly common, but there was also 6 and 7 channel tape (i= n widths specific to those types) which is far less common. I haven't seen 6= channel tape since the 1970s when it was still used in typesetting equipment= , and I never heard of 7 channel tape until recently (it was used on some 196= 0s era machines). >=20 > 6 and 7 channel tapes should be the same width, i.e. 22.2 mm. The LGP-30 fo= r example natively uses 7 channel tapes (was also common in the former GDR) b= ut punches only 6 channels. That may be true for some of them. But typesetting usage has 6 channels on t= ape sized to carry just 6. For example, the Linotype "Teletypesetter" handbo= ok clearly shows paper tape with 6 channels (3 on each side of the feed holes= ) filling the tape. (https://archive.org/details/LinotypeHandbookForTeletypes= etterOperation1951 and https://www.galleyrack.com/images/artifice/letters/pre= ss/compline/literature/linotype/sales/general/linotype-handbook-for-teletypes= etter-operation-1951-hms-1200rgb-031-tts-tape-2048x.jpg) I saw a specification of paper tape widths a while back, which is how I disco= vered there is such a thing as 7 channel tape, but I can't find it right now. paul --===============0542991628454716880==-- From mi@fritscholyt.de Fri Jun 9 14:30:37 2023 From: Michael Fritsch To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for information on Data General 602X magtape drive Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2023 16:22:19 +0200 Message-ID: <64b87ffd-41ec-b61e-50cd-871f78e86d45@fritscholyt.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6936717501283991323==" --===============6936717501283991323== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit @ Bjoren I have such a tape drive and some schematics and manuals too. If nothing got wrong, you should have received it already :-) I can take some pictures, if you want. @Lothar would you mind sending the pdf's of your microfiches, to me too? --micha --===============6936717501283991323==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 14:35:23 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2023 10:35:05 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <91bf6096-c4ae-8ef3-e269-20401dc4faf2@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7225359975040009769==" --===============7225359975040009769== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You recall correctly; I ran a 101 with my Commodore PET for several years and it did indeed use 1" 8 channel paper tape for vertical form control. Side note: because of its size and noise it was in the basement, connected to the PET in the upstairs office with a ~40 foot ribbon cable, contrary to official length limits. m On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 1:46 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > IIRC the Centronics 101 printers did this. It was for vertical spacing > - you could put different loops in for different form lengths. > > I used to service them (mostly replacing heads) but never operated :-) > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > > On 2023-06-08 13:18, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 6:01 PM Paul Koning > wrote: > > > >> I wonder if mylar tape for punching could be found, or made. That was > >> seen occasionally, for applications where a tape needed to be read many > >> times. An OS binary tape might want that. I also remember seeing it > on a > >> machine in my father's lab, where it contained correction factors for a > >> piece of precision machinery. > >> > > I've seen mylar tape used in a tiny loop where it controlled the > movements > > of a printer platen. I don't recall now whether it was used for > horizontal > > or vertical space - my recollection was the latter but it was a long time > > ago. > > > > I don't know why it wasn't controlled by ASCII - a good bit of the > > character set is dedicated to print head control. I think a different > tape > > had to be installed to match the program that was being run. The machine > > was used for accountancy in about 1975, It was a bit like a large LA120 > > (but included the calculating part) and made by the french Logabax > company. > > > > I worked in a manufacturing plant around 1985 where the (new) > > pick-and-place machine was controlled by a paper tape. The tape was > punched > > on an ASR33 or similar. It seemed like an obsolete solution even though > > only just installed. I bought a very nice surplus Facit tape punch from a > > classified ad in Wireless World, built a serial to parallel interface and > > allowed the machine programmer to create the source on a word processor > > (which was our manufactured product) instead. > > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > --===============7225359975040009769==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jun 9 14:44:07 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2023 07:43:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3481c119-3789-7f28-d069-9746e98e7bd4@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <7e7e8cda-7c55-80b3-9d37-a1cd55472b5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1221447698110184590==" --===============1221447698110184590== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/9/23 04:09, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The 12-channel tape used on line printers (e.g. IBM 1403), was, IIRC, >> Mylar-coated.  Much wider than regular 1" paper tape, however. > > All form control tapes I have are normal "paper" tapes. I have not seen > such a mylar tape, yet. > See comments here: https://ibm-1401.info/1403-CarriageControl.html The IBM tapes were sui generis, of a specific length and width and very often mylar-coated for durability. --Chuck --===============1221447698110184590==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jun 9 15:00:15 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2023 17:00:04 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8660E5A2-0832-462E-8C37-50A45A376B35@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5928763892290159027==" --===============5928763892290159027== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, Paul Koning wrote: > That may be true for some of them. But typesetting usage has 6 channels > on tape sized to carry just 6. For example, the Linotype Yes, but if I'm remembering correctly, the width is the same. Only the typesetter tapes have the sprocket holes in the center of the tape. But otherwise the tape is the same 22.2 mm. Or what width does the typesetting tapes have? For example, on the Friden highspeed readers, you can switch between normal and TTS, i.e. move the read block by a small amount to adapt to the different holes position. The tape guides stay the same. Christian --===============5928763892290159027==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 08:29:50 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 09:29:32 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3633749178237247240==" --===============3633749178237247240== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I've got the Greaseweazle software to run, but I don't know why, which is hardly encouraging. Installing various Windows updates, downloading .dlls, and puting the latter in various directories changed the error messages but it never actually worked. But downloading the latest Greaseweazle software did, it ran first time. So no idea what I was doing wrong (maybe 32 bit .vs. 64 bit Windows applications?) I can now get the list of commands when I run gw.exe. And can get help on them using the -h option. I've not tried connecting a drive yet, but the software can find and talk to the board (the green 'activity' LED turns on). For example 'gw rpm' which is used to check the drive speed by timing the index pulses times out and gives a 'no index' error which seems entrely reasonable. However I am not sure if I'll be able to use it. There is one very important thing missing : DOCUMENTATION. The 'wikii' on github is ridiculously incomplete. There is no user manual or man pages. The software source in python (a language I've never used) has very few comments and is not clear at all. It's not clear to me exactly what all the options are for, and when to use th= em. -tony --===============3633749178237247240==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 08:57:10 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 09:56:53 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0872009729085504227==" --===============0872009729085504227== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 9:29=E2=80=AFAM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > However I am not sure if I'll be able to use it. There is one very > important thing missing : DOCUMENTATION. The 'wikii' on github is > ridiculously incomplete. There is no user manual or man pages. The > software source in python (a language I've never used) has very few > comments and is not clear at all. > > It's not clear to me exactly what all the options are for, and when to use > them. > > -tony > I also got one ion the hope I'd be able to read a 1.44MB dos floppy that may or may not have some useful software on it. It installed and ran without issue on Linux but, like Tony, I'm finding the documentation a bit short. And I don't know much python either though I do find it fairly readable. I have tried the examples that do exist and they work as described. It's not clear though yet how to proceed though in the simplest case I think it has provided me with a 1.44MB image of a test floppy. Using it for non-DOS floppies may be more difficult but the main reason I'm unsure is that it's fairly quiet about what it does and I don't know yet how much recovery work it's done unbidden. I do believe the greaseweazle firmware includes some of the retry mechanism and may 'just work'. Note that the test floppy I'm using is easily readable. However, while I was waiting for the board, I looked around for software and as well as that recommended by the designer I also found some called fluxengine. This was written for a different adapter - actually a Cyprus dev board connected directly to a floppy socket, not a custom board, but it supports the greaseweazle adapter and only lose part of the functionality. I haven't investigated the documentation on that yet but it's very well presented and I have hopes that I wil be able to use it too. I'd recommend looking at it - it was very little trouble to get working. I didn't try it on Windows but it has support for that. https://github.com/davidgiven/fluxengine I think there were a couple of recommendations for greaseweazle here so I guess someone's found it useful before. I'm interested in any hints - if you send any to tony please cc me. Although Tony seems to have resolved his Windows problems, it did occur to me that this could be paired with a raspberry pi or clone to make a self-contained device with little cost or effort. -adrian --===============0872009729085504227==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 09:07:33 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:07:17 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6921464880854227583==" --===============6921464880854227583== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Further on the greaseweazle docs - there is a forum at https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/discussions which seems quite lively and may be the right place to start. On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 9:56 AM Adrian Godwin wrote: > On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 9:29 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> However I am not sure if I'll be able to use it. There is one very >> important thing missing : DOCUMENTATION. The 'wikii' on github is >> ridiculously incomplete. There is no user manual or man pages. The >> software source in python (a language I've never used) has very few >> comments and is not clear at all. >> >> It's not clear to me exactly what all the options are for, and when to >> use them. >> >> -tony >> > > I also got one ion the hope I'd be able to read a 1.44MB dos floppy that > may or may not have some useful software on it. > It installed and ran without issue on Linux but, like Tony, I'm finding > the documentation a bit short. And I don't know much python either though I > do find it fairly readable. > > I have tried the examples that do exist and they work as described. It's > not clear though yet how to proceed though in the simplest case I think it > has provided me with a 1.44MB image of a test floppy. Using it for non-DOS > floppies may be more difficult but the main reason I'm unsure is that it's > fairly quiet about what it does and I don't know yet how much recovery work > it's done unbidden. I do believe the greaseweazle firmware includes some of > the retry mechanism and may 'just work'. Note that the test floppy I'm > using is easily readable. > > However, while I was waiting for the board, I looked around for software > and as well as that recommended by the designer I also found some called > fluxengine. This was written for a different adapter - actually a Cyprus > dev board connected directly to a floppy socket, not a custom board, but it > supports the greaseweazle adapter and only lose part of the functionality. > I haven't investigated the documentation on that yet but it's very well > presented and I have hopes that I wil be able to use it too. I'd recommend > looking at it - it was very little trouble to get working. I didn't try it > on Windows but it has support for that. > https://github.com/davidgiven/fluxengine > > I think there were a couple of recommendations for greaseweazle here so I > guess someone's found it useful before. I'm interested in any hints - if > you send any to tony please cc me. > > Although Tony seems to have resolved his Windows problems, it did occur to > me that this could be paired with a raspberry pi or clone to make a > self-contained device with little cost or effort. > > -adrian > --===============6921464880854227583==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 09:29:39 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:29:24 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7151929784674597083==" --===============7151929784674597083== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to drip-feed this, but https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Rescuing_Floppy_Disks is a useful source on comparing various methods. It's clear that this type of interface has particularly strong support on Apple due to their previous use of non-IBM formats, and Amiga is also quite common (I think that's where greaseweazle started). --===============7151929784674597083==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jun 11 14:17:51 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 07:17:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5213991263196228667==" --===============5213991263196228667== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/11/23 02:29, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > Sorry to drip-feed this, but > https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Rescuing_Floppy_Disks is a useful > source on comparing various methods. It's clear that this type of interface > has particularly strong support on Apple due to their previous use of > non-IBM formats, and Amiga is also quite common (I think that's where > greaseweazle started). Fundamentally, it seems to me that they're all the same basic hardware, timing intervals between flux transitions. So other than the soaftware, what's the difference? --Chuck --===============5213991263196228667==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 14:44:47 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 15:44:29 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5237901376143015695==" --===============5237901376143015695== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Fundamentally, it seems to me that they're all the same basic hardware, > timing intervals between flux transitions. > > So other than the soaftware, what's the difference? I could make a stupid comment and ask 'what's the difference between a PDP8, PDP11, PERQ or HP9830?'. Apart from having finite memory, all are (I believe) equivalent to a Turing machine. But more seriously when I started asking about writing images to floppy disks, I asked what options were available and what I'd need. Apart from the (IMHO) stupid suggestion of a 1990's PC compatible, the only thing that was mentioned to me was the Greaseweazle. Nobody pointed me at web sites giving comparisons between the various methods and devices. -tony --===============5237901376143015695==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 11 15:22:07 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 09:21:52 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1298753257972672178==" --===============1298753257972672178== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-06-11 8:44 a.m., Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> Fundamentally, it seems to me that they're all the same basic hardware, >> timing intervals between flux transitions. >> >> So other than the soaftware, what's the difference? > > I could make a stupid comment and ask 'what's the difference between a > PDP8, PDP11, PERQ or HP9830?'. Apart from having finite memory, all > are (I believe) equivalent to a Turing machine. > A: the blinking lights. > But more seriously when I started asking about writing images to > floppy disks, I asked what options were available and what I'd need. > Apart from the (IMHO) stupid suggestion of a 1990's PC compatible, the > only thing that was mentioned to me was the Greaseweazle. Nobody > pointed me at web sites giving comparisons between the various methods > and devices. > > -tony I would of thought the AMIGA would have a say here, as it reads a disk track as just a bunch of flux transitions. Ben. --===============1298753257972672178==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jun 11 16:43:58 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 09:43:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8281983738905911349==" --===============8281983738905911349== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/11/23 08:21, ben via cctalk wrote: > I would of thought the AMIGA would have a say here, > as it reads a disk track as just a bunch of flux transitions. Other than the FBGA-equipped ones (e.g. Catweasel Mk 3-4) and a few others, all basically use the same "timer capture" facility in all but the most basic MCUs. For writing, one can, similarly, use the timer-based PWM facilities in the same chips. Other than timer clock rate and local RAM, they're pretty much the same from a hardware standpoint. I doubt that one can say that across the entire PDP-11 line. My own implementations use an 84 MHz timer clock (prescaling selected) with HF noise filtering and 192KB of local memory. Most of my analysis is done in the MCU, not relying on any PC/Apple host. No need for USB, (although I use it for speed and include an option to run using a UART) a dumb terminal would suffice for interface. Since the MCU includes a NIC, one could conceivable run it from a smartphone. --Chuck --===============8281983738905911349==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 17:11:30 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 18:11:13 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8735342305470009710==" --===============8735342305470009710== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would have liked to find that comparison site earlier. However I think I'd still have gone for greaseweazle. On Sun, 11 Jun 2023, 09:29 Tony Duell via cctalk, wrote: > Well, I've got the Greaseweazle software to run, but I don't know why, > which is hardly encouraging. > > Installing various Windows updates, downloading .dlls, and puting the > latter in various directories changed the error messages but it never > actually worked. But downloading the latest Greaseweazle software did, > it ran first time. So no idea what I was doing wrong (maybe 32 bit > .vs. 64 bit Windows applications?) > > I can now get the list of commands when I run gw.exe. And can get help > on them using the -h option. I've not tried connecting a drive yet, > but the software can find and talk to the board (the green 'activity' > LED turns on). For example 'gw rpm' which is used to check the drive > speed by timing the index pulses times out and gives a 'no index' > error which seems entrely reasonable. > > However I am not sure if I'll be able to use it. There is one very > important thing missing : DOCUMENTATION. The 'wikii' on github is > ridiculously incomplete. There is no user manual or man pages. The > software source in python (a language I've never used) has very few > comments and is not clear at all. > > It's not clear to me exactly what all the options are for, and when to use > them. > > -tony > --===============8735342305470009710==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 20:07:50 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 13:07:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV2PR12MB57270563E3FA3B9A770C758DB54DA=40LV2PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5727=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1166579200330969455==" --===============1166579200330969455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 1:43=E2=80=AFPM Robert Feldman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >Message: 21 > >Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 04:35:28 +0100 > >From: Tony Duell > >Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. > > > >On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 10:57=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > <> > an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek). > >> > >> The original Osborne 1 had a 12V power input! > > > >Actually it's +12.6V and +5.6V and you have to supply both voltages. > >It's one diode drop to the +5V (logic supply) and +12V (DRAM, disk > >motors, monitor supply), the -5V for the DRAM is produced on the logic > >board. > > > >I am told it was never used and that the Osborne battery pack came > >with an inverter to provide 110V AC. > > > >-tony > > It (the Osborne Powr-Pac (tm) ) has a what the manual says is a DC-DC > inverter that plugged into a Gould lead-acid battery (or the > cigarette-lighter socket in a car) at one end and the AC input of the > Osborne 1 at the other. I have read on this list that Lee denies that OCC > ever sold them, but I have one that I bought for $50 at Compumat in Chicago > on October 10, 1983 -- I still have the unit, receipt, and User > Registration card. It came with a glossy-printed grey-and-blue manual, like > other contemporary OCC products. > > If anyone wants a copy, I can email you a PDF scan of the user manual. > > Bob > Bob, I asked Lee if he could respond to this and here it is: "While I don=E2=80=99t recall saying that, I may well have - I know that I was involved in the engineering question of how safe it would be to use. The inverter produced 230 VDC, which it turned out could be safely fed to the 120VAC input without more than a single diode drop reverse voltage across an electrolytic filter capacitor. This was due to the power supply=E2= =80=99s design having a voltage doubler as the first stage. It was designed by a third party who presented it to Osborne who accepted it as a branded product - exactly how they supplied it is something I don=E2= =80=99t know (did the third party handle the production or did we?). If the question had ben posed to me as to whether it was a =E2=80=9Cbattery p= ack=E2=80=9D I might well have answered no because it never included batteries. Apologies for any confusion - I was always overloaded at Osborne and no one knew what a VP of Engineering=E2=80=99s job was until John Hanne came in in = 1983. I was relabeled =E2=80=9CR&D Fellow=E2=80=9D in 1981 and replaced with Ed Ric= hter." (I did get Lee's permission to post this, which was the cause of the delay in posting this as he hadn't seen my first request.) Sellam --===============1166579200330969455==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jun 12 00:25:05 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 17:24:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8537785719134405556==" --===============8537785719134405556== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm a bit surprised that there don't seem to be any adaptations that hook into the head pre-amps and use an ADC to give a view of what the read signal actually looks like. Maybe that's asking too much--there are certainly MCUs with sufficiently fast ADCs and memory to do this. --Chuck --===============8537785719134405556==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon Jun 12 03:35:48 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 04:35:31 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2239179684014389817==" --===============2239179684014389817== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 1:25 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I'm a bit surprised that there don't seem to be any adaptations that > hook into the head pre-amps and use an ADC to give a view of what the > read signal actually looks like. Maybe that's asking too much--there > are certainly MCUs with sufficiently fast ADCs and memory to do this. I suspect that would be too drive-specific for most users. Yes the head preamp outputs are nearly always available on testpoints on the drive PCB (you use them when doing a head alignment) but having to find them and connect to them could be non-trivial. At least with the flux transition interfaces all you have to do is plug into the normal drive ribbon cable connector. -tony --===============2239179684014389817==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon Jun 12 03:48:57 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 04:48:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0786442803651631396==" --===============0786442803651631396== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 9:07=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > "While I don=E2=80=99t recall saying that, I may well have - I know that I = was > involved in the engineering question of how safe it would be to use. > > The inverter produced 230 VDC, which it turned out could be safely fed to > the 120VAC input without more than a single diode drop reverse voltage > across an electrolytic filter capacitor. This was due to the power supply= =E2=80=99s > design having a voltage doubler as the first stage. I find that curious (read : I don't see how it could work, at least not reliably.) The power supply in the Osborne 1 and 1A is an Astec SMPSU. The input stage is the conventional one. Mains input goes through a filter circuit to a bridge rectifier. The output of the bridge rectifier goes to 2 electrolytic capacitors in series. There is a voltage selector link between one side of the AC input to the bridge rectifier and the centre tap of the capacitors. In the Osborne 1, this link is hidden on the PSU board and you have to dismantle the machine to get to it. On the 1A it's set by a little plug-in PCB in the mains input module on the back which you turn round for 115V or 230V mains. On 115V the link is in place. 2 of the diodes in the bridge and the 2 capactors form a voltage doubler circuit. Each capacitor charges to about 160V. You get 320V across the pair to feed the chopper. On 230V, the link is open. The bridge rectifier works as you might expect, the 2 capacitors get around 320V across them and charge equally (so about 160V on each). Again 320V to the chopper. Now if you feed in 230V DC with the link in the 115V position, one capacitor (only) will charge to the full 230V. That is more than the working voltage of said capacitor. The other will not charge at all from the input. Meaning the chopper circuit is fed from the charged capactior with another one in series. That one is liable to charge up with a reverse polarity due to the action of the chopper. Bang! -tony --===============0786442803651631396==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Mon Jun 12 06:08:07 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 14:07:50 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1439913146902442003==" --===============1439913146902442003== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is it really necessary to be always so confrontational? It is unpleasant. On Sun, 11 June 2023, 10:44 pm Tony Duell via cctalk, wrote: > > Fundamentally, it seems to me that they're all the same basic hardware, > > timing intervals between flux transitions. > > > > So other than the soaftware, what's the difference? > > I could make a stupid comment and ask 'what's the difference between a > PDP8, PDP11, PERQ or HP9830?'. Apart from having finite memory, all > are (I believe) equivalent to a Turing machine. > > But more seriously when I started asking about writing images to > floppy disks, I asked what options were available and what I'd need. > Apart from the (IMHO) stupid suggestion of a 1990's PC compatible, the > only thing that was mentioned to me was the Greaseweazle. Nobody > pointed me at web sites giving comparisons between the various methods > and devices. > > -tony > --===============1439913146902442003==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Mon Jun 12 09:50:27 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 09:50:21 +0000 Message-ID: <877e30639e794dacb367a9308bd21be1@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8595810696123707010==" --===============8595810696123707010== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is called feedback - directly given but fair and polite. Delays, filtering, non-linearities, distortion, etc reduce its effectiveness. Martin PS I shall omit, as unnecessary, a discourse on the benefits of feedback -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hunter via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 12 June 2023 07:08 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Tom Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Is it really necessary to be always so confrontational? It is unpleasant. On Sun, 11 June 2023, 10:44 pm Tony Duell via cctalk, wrote: > > Fundamentally, it seems to me that they're all the same basic=20 > > hardware, timing intervals between flux transitions. > > > > So other than the soaftware, what's the difference? > > I could make a stupid comment and ask 'what's the difference between a=20 > PDP8, PDP11, PERQ or HP9830?'. Apart from having finite memory, all=20 > are (I believe) equivalent to a Turing machine. > > But more seriously when I started asking about writing images to=20 > floppy disks, I asked what options were available and what I'd need. > Apart from the (IMHO) stupid suggestion of a 1990's PC compatible, the=20 > only thing that was mentioned to me was the Greaseweazle. Nobody=20 > pointed me at web sites giving comparisons between the various methods=20 > and devices. > > -tony > --===============8595810696123707010==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon Jun 12 11:59:02 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 12:58:42 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8000137743389877086==" --===============8000137743389877086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 7:08=E2=80=AFAM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Is it really necessary to be always so confrontational? It is unpleasant. Could you please indicate exactly which statement in my original message you object to? [And please don't top-post. It's annoying] -tony > > On Sun, 11 June 2023, 10:44 pm Tony Duell via cctalk, > wrote: > > > > Fundamentally, it seems to me that they're all the same basic hardware, > > > timing intervals between flux transitions. > > > > > > So other than the soaftware, what's the difference? > > > > I could make a stupid comment and ask 'what's the difference between a > > PDP8, PDP11, PERQ or HP9830?'. Apart from having finite memory, all > > are (I believe) equivalent to a Turing machine. > > > > But more seriously when I started asking about writing images to > > floppy disks, I asked what options were available and what I'd need. > > Apart from the (IMHO) stupid suggestion of a 1990's PC compatible, the > > only thing that was mentioned to me was the Greaseweazle. Nobody > > pointed me at web sites giving comparisons between the various methods > > and devices. > > > > -tony > > --===============8000137743389877086==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Mon Jun 12 13:06:45 2023 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 15:06:31 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4436562914737237669==" --===============4436562914737237669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 09:21:52AM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > I would of thought the AMIGA would have a say here, as it reads a disk > track as just a bunch of flux transitions. The Amiga has a choice of two fixed clock rates, both of which happen to correspond with common DD disk formats of the day. A (digital) PLL is used to nudge the frequency to synchronise with the incoming flux transitions when reading, but that's to handle wow and flutter, not formats using a different clock. This is sufficiently-limiting that the Amiga cannot use standard HD drives, but needs a special drive which drops to 150RPM when HD media is inserted so that the clock speed remains the same. --===============4436562914737237669==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jun 14 04:47:11 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2023 21:47:03 -0700 Message-ID: <023f01d99e7b$444b6ca0$cce245e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2625541246004378223==" --===============2625541246004378223== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So I had always heard the quote "640KB is enough memory" being attributed to Bill Gates. However, recently I was watching Dave Plummer on YT and he said that it is not true: https://youtu.be/bikbJPI-7Kg?t=372 And apparently the man himself has denied it as well but it just will not go away... https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PCWorld/story?id=5214635 So I guess like the napkin/disk story and the DR/IBM story this is another one of those vintage myths and folk lore with no real basis in reality.... -Ali --===============2625541246004378223==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jun 14 14:26:09 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PCs Limited XT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 10:25:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4690077501249333946==" --===============4690077501249333946== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am getting an error message when I boot up a recently donated PCs Limited XT clone. The error is ARC Turbo Board X Turbo System Error # 04 Does anyone have one of these boards, I believe the error means the board has been removed, and the system can't find it/bad board. If so, please advise the $$. I don't think the board is specific to PCs Limted, I found a general manual called "Turbo-XT Main Board" that seems to be the OEM of the PCs Limited-branded motherboard. I assume there is a separate daughterboard the the "Turbo" part. Yes? Thanks Bill --===============4690077501249333946==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jun 14 16:20:42 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 09:19:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <023f01d99e7b$444b6ca0$cce245e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5768045269544913300==" --===============5768045269544913300== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Based on other videos of Dave's that I've watched he doesn't really know what he's talking about so I wouldn't lend much credence to his apocrypha either. Sellam On Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 9:47 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > So I had always heard the quote "640KB is enough memory" being attributed > to > Bill Gates. However, recently I was watching Dave Plummer on YT and he said > that it is not true: > > https://youtu.be/bikbJPI-7Kg?t=372 > > And apparently the man himself has denied it as well but it just will not > go > away... > > https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PCWorld/story?id=5214635 > > So I guess like the napkin/disk story and the DR/IBM story this is another > one of those vintage myths and folk lore with no real basis in reality.... > > -Ali > > > > --===============5768045269544913300==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Wed Jun 14 16:52:31 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 12:52:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8618034316117464910==" --===============8618034316117464910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 12:21 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Based on other videos of Dave's that I've watched he doesn't really know > what he's talking about so I wouldn't lend much credence to his apocrypha > either. Agreed. Some months back, Dave put out one of his videos with a click-bait headline that was, well, false. He did not respond well to that being pointed out. His "insider knowledge" hasn't impressed me. > > So I had always heard the quote "640KB is enough memory" being attributed > > to Bill Gates > > > > And apparently the man himself has denied it as well but it just will not > > go away... > > > > https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PCWorld/story?id=5214635 It's entirely possible, even probable, BG didn't say exactly those words no matter what people think they remember. OTOH, I do remember, back in the day, that he _did_ make a similar statement, *but* unlike the myth, it wasn't to belittle PC users, but whatever he _did_ say was a caution to application programmers that the max available memory space _ought to_ be enough to write reasonable programs for the PC market, that there were ways to write programs that _would_ fit in 640K and you should be doing that. So I'm not gonna swear he said those words, I do remember something along those lines was said ~40 years ago. -ethan --===============8618034316117464910==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jun 14 16:56:23 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 09:56:17 -0700 Message-ID: <026901d99ee1$23ca48f0$6b5edad0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2314252646844148899==" --===============2314252646844148899== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Based on other videos of Dave's that I've watched he doesn't really > know > what he's talking about so I wouldn't lend much credence to his > apocrypha > either. > Well, I am willing to believe him given the PC World article that I also link= ed to in my original message.... And snopes.com.... But hey everyone is entit= led to their beliefs... ;) -Ali --===============2314252646844148899==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jun 14 17:02:19 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 10:02:24 -0700 Message-ID: <027001d99ee1$fe7019d0$fb504d70$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3486747743068133201==" --===============3486747743068133201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >that there were ways to write programs that _would_ fit in > 640K and you should be doing that. That sentiment is an entirely different statement and meaning from the quote = which is attributed to him. I won't comment on Dave's videos because I don't have enough "insider" knowle= dge to say how much is BS and how much is real. His technical stuff sound pre= tty ok/right and as far as click bait goes.... well it is YT and that=E2=80= =99s how you make money. Linus does the same thing and so do just about any o= f the other channels out there both computing and non-computing related ones.= Just be glad his video thumbnail is not a scantily dressed girl...=20 -Ali --===============3486747743068133201==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 14 17:02:29 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:02:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6702910505011853402==" --===============6702910505011853402== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 9:47 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > So I had always heard the quote "640KB is enough memory" being attributed > to > Bill Gates.=20 Along the same lines, I remember a supposed quote from Gates to the effect th= at program specifications are a waste of time because the code is the specifi= cation.=20 paul --===============6702910505011853402==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Jun 14 17:08:57 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 17:08:50 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4714372091735465221==" --===============4714372091735465221== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Open it up and take a look. Maybe the daughterboard it there and just needs r= eseating. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 14, 2023, at 07:26, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI am getting an error message when I boot up a recently donated PC= s Limited > XT clone. The error is >=20 > ARC Turbo Board > X Turbo System Error # 04 >=20 > Does anyone have one of these boards, I believe the error means the board > has been removed, and the system can't find it/bad board. If so, please > advise the $$. >=20 > I don't think the board is specific to PCs Limted, I found a general manual > called "Turbo-XT Main Board" that seems to be the OEM of the PCs > Limited-branded motherboard. I assume there is a separate daughterboard > the the "Turbo" part. Yes? >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Bill --===============4714372091735465221==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jun 14 17:58:59 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:58:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5239652456697346464==" --===============5239652456697346464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe I an state this here without getting a lot of flack apart feom of the youruber fan boys elsewhere... Shhhhh...but a lot of the youtubers who claim to be experts in vintage computing history or repairs are really just experts in Google and Wiki searching, with good speaking skills. Just saying. As far as the Bill Gates quote, I do remember reading an actual longer quote somewhere (?), the context was lost from a larger paragraph if one takes just the snippet statement IIRC. On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 12:52 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 12:21=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > Based on other videos of Dave's that I've watched he doesn't really know > > what he's talking about so I wouldn't lend much credence to his apocrypha > > either. > > Agreed. Some months back, Dave put out one of his videos with a > click-bait headline that was, well, false. He did not respond well to > that being pointed out. His "insider knowledge" hasn't impressed me. > > > > So I had always heard the quote "640KB is enough memory" being > attributed > > > to Bill Gates > > > > > > And apparently the man himself has denied it as well but it just will > not > > > go away... > > > > > > https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PCWorld/story?id=3D5214635 > > It's entirely possible, even probable, BG didn't say exactly those > words no matter what people think they remember. OTOH, I do remember, > back in the day, that he _did_ make a similar statement, *but* unlike > the myth, it wasn't to belittle PC users, but whatever he _did_ say > was a caution to application programmers that the max available memory > space _ought to_ be enough to write reasonable programs for the PC > market, that there were ways to write programs that _would_ fit in > 640K and you should be doing that. > > So I'm not gonna swear he said those words, I do remember something > along those lines was said ~40 years ago. > > -ethan > --===============5239652456697346464==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 14 17:59:20 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 10:59:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <027001d99ee1$fe7019d0$fb504d70$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8501926745706366930==" --===============8501926745706366930== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember when he was a programmer, and any of his programs would run in 64K. I remember when he didn't even have 64K. I remember when he used 8 bit processors. I remember when he used 16 bit processors. I remember when he used 32 bit processors. I remember when he distributed software on single sided floppy disks. I remember when he was a millionaire. He has been denying the 640K quote for more than 30 years. --===============8501926745706366930==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Jun 14 18:22:14 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:22:07 -0500 Message-ID: <170959973.1724037.1686766927748@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8051549294419777046==" --===============8051549294419777046== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 06/14/2023 12:58 PM CDT Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > As far as the Bill Gates quote, I do remember reading an actual longer > quote somewhere (?), the context was lost from a larger paragraph if one > takes just the snippet statement IIRC. >=20 Maybe the longer quote was "I never said no one will ever need more than 640K= ." ;) --===============8051549294419777046==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Wed Jun 14 18:46:48 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 12:46:31 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <170959973.1724037.1686766927748@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8728465507189181549==" --===============8728465507189181549== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 12:22 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 06/14/2023 12:58 PM CDT Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > > As far as the Bill Gates quote, I do remember reading an actual longer > > quote somewhere (?), the context was lost from a larger paragraph if one > > takes just the snippet statement IIRC. > > > > Maybe the longer quote was "I never said no one will ever need more than > 640K." ;) > There are two details that should be brought up. The quote is bogus, sure. Gates did work to increase the limit (There are stories of him getting the design changed from 512k to 640k, for example). He also has said that one shouldn't avoid the pc because of that.. which is way different than "never need" the quote uses... both of these are quite reasonable things... especially since obe of the original expanded memory schemes came from Microsoft in part... Warner --===============8728465507189181549==-- From vivianne@chinstrap.org Wed Jun 14 19:01:13 2023 From: vivianne@chinstrap.org To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for Itanium systems Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 17:29:30 +0000 Message-ID: <8450f6c8accf996e9a348250a89754f5@chinstrap.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4776769262409052001==" --===============4776769262409052001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I'm looking for various Itanium systems: IBM eServer xSeries 380 IBM IntelliStation Z Pro Type 6894 Fujitsu Celsius 880 Silicon Graphics 750 HP i2000 HP Integrity rx4610 Dell Precision Workstation 730 Dell PowerEdge 7150 If you have a system you want off your hands, I'll pay! Thanks, Vivianne --===============4776769262409052001==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jun 14 20:21:26 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 16:21:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSN6SPR01MB0055D9A2D596094DD2C86586E45AA=40SN6SPR01?= =?utf-8?q?MB0055=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3557825740587653761==" --===============3557825740587653761== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used to use (and service) PC Limited stuff back in the 90's at Macro.=20 I don't remember a turbo board, just a normal XT system board. Pop the=20 case open and check. If I recall PC Limited and Dell (what they became) came with call in=20 service from Xerox. Maybe give them a call? ;-) CZ On 6/14/2023 1:08 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Open it up and take a look. Maybe the daughterboard it there and just needs= reseating. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 14, 2023, at 07:26, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFI am getting an error message when I boot up a recently donated P= Cs Limited >> XT clone. The error is >> >> ARC Turbo Board >> X Turbo System Error # 04 >> >> Does anyone have one of these boards, I believe the error means the board >> has been removed, and the system can't find it/bad board. If so, please >> advise the $$. >> >> I don't think the board is specific to PCs Limted, I found a general manual >> called "Turbo-XT Main Board" that seems to be the OEM of the PCs >> Limited-branded motherboard. I assume there is a separate daughterboard >> the the "Turbo" part. Yes? >> >> Thanks >> >> Bill --===============3557825740587653761==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jun 14 21:47:35 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 17:47:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6191080984821674662==" --===============6191080984821674662== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Obviously I opened the box. So Inguess the Turbo board is just "motherboard" Bill On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 4:21 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I used to use (and service) PC Limited stuff back in the 90's at Macro. > I don't remember a turbo board, just a normal XT system board. Pop the > case open and check. > > If I recall PC Limited and Dell (what they became) came with call in > service from Xerox. Maybe give them a call? ;-) > > CZ > > On 6/14/2023 1:08 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > Open it up and take a look. Maybe the daughterboard it there and just > needs reseating. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Jun 14, 2023, at 07:26, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> I am getting an error message when I boot up a recently donated PCs > Limited > >> XT clone. The error is > >> > >> ARC Turbo Board > >> X Turbo System Error # 04 > >> > >> Does anyone have one of these boards, I believe the error means the > board > >> has been removed, and the system can't find it/bad board. If so, please > >> advise the $$. > >> > >> I don't think the board is specific to PCs Limted, I found a general > manual > >> called "Turbo-XT Main Board" that seems to be the OEM of the PCs > >> Limited-branded motherboard. I assume there is a separate daughterboard > >> the the "Turbo" part. Yes? > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Bill > --===============6191080984821674662==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Jun 14 21:49:57 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 21:49:49 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5323250308838865097==" --===============5323250308838865097== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or it was removed and the config wasn=E2=80=99t updated. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 14, 2023, at 14:47, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFObviously I opened the box. So Inguess the Turbo board is just > "motherboard" > Bill >=20 >> On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 4:21 PM Chris Zach via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >> I used to use (and service) PC Limited stuff back in the 90's at Macro. >> I don't remember a turbo board, just a normal XT system board. Pop the >> case open and check. >>=20 >> If I recall PC Limited and Dell (what they became) came with call in >> service from Xerox. Maybe give them a call? ;-) >>=20 >> CZ >>=20 >>> On 6/14/2023 1:08 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>> Open it up and take a look. Maybe the daughterboard it there and just >> needs reseating. >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>>> On Jun 14, 2023, at 07:26, Bill Degnan via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BFI am getting an error message when I boot up a recently donated= PCs >> Limited >>>> XT clone. The error is >>>>=20 >>>> ARC Turbo Board >>>> X Turbo System Error # 04 >>>>=20 >>>> Does anyone have one of these boards, I believe the error means the >> board >>>> has been removed, and the system can't find it/bad board. If so, please >>>> advise the $$. >>>>=20 >>>> I don't think the board is specific to PCs Limted, I found a general >> manual >>>> called "Turbo-XT Main Board" that seems to be the OEM of the PCs >>>> Limited-branded motherboard. I assume there is a separate daughterboard >>>> the the "Turbo" part. Yes? >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks >>>>=20 >>>> Bill >>=20 --===============5323250308838865097==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jun 14 21:57:51 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 16:57:46 -0500 Message-ID: <3fe266f9-f1c1-6095-8b3a-96fa5ab68119@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6774536775246033169==" --===============6774536775246033169== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > On 6/14/2023 1:08 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Open it up and take a look. Maybe the daughterboard it >> there and just needs reseating. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jun 14, 2023, at 07:26, Bill Degnan via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> I am getting an error message when I boot up a recently >>> donated PCs Limited >>> XT clone.  The error is >>> >>> ARC Turbo Board >>> X Turbo System Error # 04 ARC make me think of ARCNET, a very old network system.  Unless you want to connect with other machines running ARCNET, then this card would be of no use. (I could be wildly off base.) Jon --===============6774536775246033169==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Jun 14 22:05:41 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 17:05:37 -0500 Message-ID: <376984312.1802351.1686780337445@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1316540410303881029==" --===============1316540410303881029== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 06/14/2023 4:47 PM CDT Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Obviously I opened the box. So Inguess the Turbo board is just > "motherboard" > Bill >=20 Back in those days I made my living assembling and repairing those XT machine= s. The motherboards were almost universally from a handful of manufacturers = and generally referred to as "Turbo Motherboard XT." I never saw any type of daughterboard. Generally they had a switch that sele= cted "normal" (4.77 mhz) or "turbo" (8 or 10 or rarely 12 mhz.) Is this message you are getting a bios message or is it from dos trying to lo= ad? If it is bios, it is something I have never seen. If it is from dos, it= should be easy to get around it. The bios on almost all of them was either = ERSO, Award, or Phoenix. But my memory is starting to fade after 35 years. Will --===============1316540410303881029==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 14 22:36:06 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 15:35:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4127115825255157969==" --===============4127115825255157969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What cards are plugged into the motherboard? What video do you have connected? On 3 digit error codes, 4xx was monochrome video problems Do you get any beeps? Does it have a dipswitch (SW1)? What are the current settings of it? With all cards removed, and SW1 (if it has one) switches 5 and 6 off, do you get beeps? Do you have any other 5160s available? (consider swapping BIOS ROM) --===============4127115825255157969==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jun 14 23:16:50 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 19:16:23 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1454494459898236425==" --===============1454494459898236425== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guys...I just wanted to know if anyone has either an original user/tech guide or worked with the actual specific machine. Maybe there is a password reset util disk image floating around specific to the original PCs Limited system, or a backdoor password ...that's what I am after...the original stuff that came with it. I learned ctrl+alt+ - toggles Turbo/ regular mode, by trial and error. Bill On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 6:36 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > What cards are plugged into the motherboard? > > What video do you have connected? > > On 3 digit error codes, 4xx was monochrome video problems > > Do you get any beeps? > > Does it have a dipswitch (SW1)? What are the current settings of it? > With all cards removed, and SW1 (if it has one) switches 5 and 6 off, do > you get beeps? > > > Do you have any other 5160s available? (consider swapping BIOS ROM) > --===============1454494459898236425==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jun 15 01:11:40 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 21:11:32 -0400 Message-ID: <8eb12084-be41-7b82-a8c3-8e50a5b083ad@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4533458206019452729==" --===============4533458206019452729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sitting here paging in old stuff from my brain. I'll bet you have an=20 ArcNet card, and on the card it has a BIOS bootloader that was designed=20 to do a BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. Pull the card and it will probably boot normally off the floppy. CZ On 6/14/2023 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Guys...I just wanted to know if anyone has either an original user/tech > guide or worked with the actual specific machine. Maybe there is a > password reset util disk image floating around specific to the original PCs > Limited system, or a backdoor password ...that's what I am after...the > original stuff that came with it. > > I learned ctrl+alt+ - toggles Turbo/ regular mode, by trial and error. > > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 6:36 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> What cards are plugged into the motherboard? >> >> What video do you have connected? >> >> On 3 digit error codes, 4xx was monochrome video problems >> >> Do you get any beeps? >> >> Does it have a dipswitch (SW1)? What are the current settings of it? >> With all cards removed, and SW1 (if it has one) switches 5 and 6 off, do >> you get beeps? >> >> >> Do you have any other 5160s available? (consider swapping BIOS ROM) >> --===============4533458206019452729==-- From ylee@columbia.edu Thu Jun 15 02:17:49 2023 From: Yeechang Lee To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 19:17:41 -0700 Message-ID: <25738.29893.745847.568956@dobie-old.ylee.org> In-Reply-To: <023f01d99e7b$444b6ca0$cce245e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2093452716301563621==" --===============2093452716301563621== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A 100% verifiable quote about memory from 1981: > Apple Computer president, A. C. Markkula, Jr. is confident that > Apple products will continue to do well. =E2=80=9CThe IBM is more expensive > than the Apple II, and the Apple III offers better performance,=E2=80=9D he > says. > Markkula points out that publications have been incorrect in saying > that the IBM has more memory capacity than the Apple III. In fact, > Markkula says, both systems could support up to 256K RAM. Apple > however, currently offers 128K only. =E2=80=9CWe could offer more, but > frankly we don=E2=80=99t know what anyone would do with that memory.=E2=80= =9D "Old-Timers Claim IBM Entry Doesn=E2=80=99t Scare Them" , *InfoWorld*, 5 October 1981 --===============2093452716301563621==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jun 15 02:57:58 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 19:57:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <023f01d99e7b$444b6ca0$cce245e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7785273333831845243==" --===============7785273333831845243== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 13 Jun 2023, Ali via cctalk wrote: > So I had always heard the quote "640KB is enough memory" being attributed to > Bill Gates. However, recently I was watching Dave Plummer on YT and he said > that it is not true: > https://youtu.be/bikbJPI-7Kg?t=372 > And apparently the man himself has denied it as well but it just will not go > away... > https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PCWorld/story?id=5214635 > So I guess like the napkin/disk story and the DR/IBM story this is another > one of those vintage myths and folk lore with no real basis in reality.... "nobody needs more than 640K of memory now" would not be unreasonable. "nobody will ever need more than 640K of memory now" would be unreasonable. He has been denying it for more than 30 years. But, if he had said it, then he would certainly like to deny it. --===============7785273333831845243==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jun 15 05:06:18 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 22:06:02 -0700 Message-ID: <56d22f33-acbb-7647-10a6-7fed5490e170@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <25738.29893.745847.568956@dobie-old.ylee.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7555271390189873625==" --===============7555271390189873625== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I don't know about the 640KB quote, but he did say that OS/2 (what was to become Warp 3) had Microsoft's full commitment. (cf "The OS/2 handbook"). At the time he said it, MS was already developing NT and had not the slightest intention of honoring that statement. What I also remember is this: For the developers who paid for the advance copy of the "new OS/2" (about $3000, IIRC), MS sent out copies of NT 3.1. Under threat of lawsuit, they relented and refunded the advance payments. --Chuck --===============7555271390189873625==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Thu Jun 15 05:56:50 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 22:48:51 -0700 Message-ID: <4447AC46-23A8-412D-A7D1-70B1C9E51196@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <56d22f33-acbb-7647-10a6-7fed5490e170@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4807097765047569303==" --===============4807097765047569303== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jun 14, 2023, at 10:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Well, I don't know about the 640KB quote, but he did say that OS/2 (what > was to become Warp 3) had Microsoft's full commitment. (cf "The OS/2 > handbook"). At the time he said it, MS was already developing NT and > had not the slightest intention of honoring that statement. >=20 > What I also remember is this: >=20 > For the developers who paid for the advance copy of the "new OS/2" > (about $3000, IIRC), MS sent out copies of NT 3.1. Under threat of > lawsuit, they relented and refunded the advance payments. >=20 > --Chuck When shipped, Visual Basic v1 stated that it was for Windows and OS/2. I pur= chased it due to this. They only included the Windows version.=20 By the time MS released Windows 95, I had a system running Lotus SmartSuite f= or OS/2, which by then was owned by IBM. Lotus SmartSuite was so buggy that = I saw the writing on the wall, and bought my first Mac, a PowerBook 520c. I= =E2=80=99m typing this email on a Mac. If MS had delivered an OS/2 version o= f Visual Basic, there is a good chance I=E2=80=99d be typing this on Windows. Zane --===============4807097765047569303==-- From brain@jbrain.com Thu Jun 15 06:19:37 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 01:19:28 -0500 Message-ID: <55616ce2-d577-1981-b53b-53dce2f238a3@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <4447AC46-23A8-412D-A7D1-70B1C9E51196@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5684209303825671461==" --===============5684209303825671461== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/15/2023 12:48 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Jun 14, 2023, at 10:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Well, I don't know about the 640KB quote, but he did say that OS/2 (what >> was to become Warp 3) had Microsoft's full commitment. (cf "The OS/2 >> handbook"). At the time he said it, MS was already developing NT and >> had not the slightest intention of honoring that statement. >> >> What I also remember is this: >> >> For the developers who paid for the advance copy of the "new OS/2" >> (about $3000, IIRC), MS sent out copies of NT 3.1. Under threat of >> lawsuit, they relented and refunded the advance payments. >> >> --Chuck > When shipped, Visual Basic v1 stated that it was for Windows and OS/2. I p= urchased it due to this. They only included the Windows version. > > By the time MS released Windows 95, I had a system running Lotus SmartSuite= for OS/2, which by then was owned by IBM. Lotus SmartSuite was so buggy tha= t I saw the writing on the wall, and bought my first Mac, a PowerBook 520c. = I=E2=80=99m typing this email on a Mac. If MS had delivered an OS/2 version = of Visual Basic, there is a good chance I=E2=80=99d be typing this on Windows. > > Zane > > I worked for 3 years learning the internal communications APIs on OS/2=20 to support and enhance a common networking layer for Compuware=20 applications called "Generalized Communications Services (GCS)" as part=20 of the "GCS" team at that firm.=C2=A0 The layer was used by all of the OS/2=20 front ends connecting to legacy OS/370 mainframe apps that Compuware=20 sold (Xpediter, File-Aid, etc.).=C2=A0 I used to joke that all of that skill = was then useless as the world moved to NT.=C2=A0 In reality, there are lots=20 of similarities between the OS/2 and WinNT IPC and networking APIs, but=20 that made for a less interesting story! :-) GCS would no doubt cause people here to cringe, but I think it was=20 impressive for the time.=C2=A0 It provided a common naming service (ala DNS) = for protocols such as LU.2, LU6.2, Named Pipes, NetBIOS, and TCP/IP, and=20 offered a way to simulate full duplex operation over half duplex LU2=20 channels. It also worked with all of the Windows 3.1X 3270 emulators of=20 the day and offered the ability to send arbitrary length data over LU2,=20 even with the significant constraints of LU2 screen sizes. Efforts were=20 helped by realizing that most emulators would allow for very large=20 screen sizes (128x128, or sometimes even 128x512, which would allow 16kB=20 - 64kBto be transmitted in one packet).=C2=A0 There was a "hub" defined which= =20 could seamlessly convert from one protocol to another if the sending=20 code found out from the naming service that the receiver was on a=20 different protocol, as the sender would send to the hub, which would=20 convert and then send to the recipient. The emergence of TCP/IP on Windows for Workgroups, Win95, WinNT3.1, and=20 zOS spelled the end of GCS. As a further anecdote for those caring about 370, a man by the name of=20 Walter Falby at Compuware got so frustrated at IBM's initial TCP/IP=20 protocol stack for the zOS environment he borrowed by Comer networking=20 books and implemented (in 370 assembler) an entire TCP/IP protocol stack=20 (called HCI) I think Compuware sold to customers for a while until the=20 IBM code got better...=C2=A0 That developer reminded me so much of the "Mel" = of Internet Folklore fame. /me still has his copy of OS/2 v3 and Warp sitting here. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============5684209303825671461==-- From info@schroeder-edv.de Thu Jun 15 09:37:05 2023 From: Lothar =?utf-8?q?Schr=C3=B6der?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Floppy Tape Drives Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 09:36:59 +0000 Message-ID: <168682181944.1516385.15571932599165430266@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6480266526492130148==" --===============6480266526492130148== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I have a number of DC1000 tape cartridges, with and without relevant data on = them. I have 2 questions: 1. Has anybody the IRWIN TFORMAT software? 2. I want to make images from the cartridges. Has anybody done this? We tried with Linux Mint, but the drive is unknown. Thanks in advance Lothar --===============6480266526492130148==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jun 15 14:04:56 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Floppy Tape Drives Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 07:04:41 -0700 Message-ID: <00c20247-e0dc-c940-811b-8d3d6b0bf785@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <168682181944.1516385.15571932599165430266@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1344745617613708665==" --===============1344745617613708665== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/15/23 02:36, Lothar Schr=C3=B6der via cctalk wrote: > Hello, >=20 > I have a number of DC1000 tape cartridges, with and without relevant data o= n them. > I have 2 questions: >=20 > 1. Has anybody the IRWIN TFORMAT software? > 2. I want to make images from the cartridges. > Has anybody done this? > We tried with Linux Mint, but the drive is unknown. I still have the Irwin software somewhere. There also appears to be a copy of Irwin Eztape for DOS/Windows online at WinWorld PC https://winworldpc.com/product/ez-tape/3x-win Doubtless there are other copies out there. For these old floppytape drives and Linux, you need to go back to a very old version of Linux, say, Debian Sarge and install and configure the ftape driver software. I believe that you need a Linux with a kernel earlier than 2.6. --Chuck --===============1344745617613708665==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Jun 16 07:43:23 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 02:43:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <023f01d99e7b$444b6ca0$cce245e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3885411677458543161==" --===============3885411677458543161== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't think Gates ever actually said this - but that's just based on my own examination into this from a few years back. But, over the years I've done some thread programming, and I was once solving a problem by loading a lot of data into main memory (like 8-16GB of data to process as one huge chunk, on a system that only had 32GB total). A while later, I had a thought that actually maybe this quote has some merit. Maybe not the specific amount (of 640KB) - but the general notion that there is rarely a reason for a single application to consume the entirety of main memory. It may be better, especially with threads or multi-core, to work a problem in smaller chunks -- specifically, to work a problem in chunks smaller than the CPU cache. And in fact, I found a huge jump in my programs performance when I kept the buffers exactly 1 byte less than the CPU cache (at the time that was 1MB) - as soon as I went 1 byte over, I noticed a huge (~3X) hit in performance. Now that's just a single data point, and the old advise of "never optimize your program for performance too early" is probably still good. And especially most shops won't spend the time/resources to cache optimize their builds - I suspect some games do at startup, they maybe profile what your L3 cache size. Anyhow, years ago I recall coming across a quote or an article where Gates stated the IBM PC (or maybe the 8088 cpu itself) was designed or intended to only "last" about 10 years. Not that the system components itself would only last that long, but as it being a "useful" system. In that context, maybe he was right (if he had said it) - 640K was maybe "enough for anyone" for the remainder of the 1980s. I recall starting with 384KB (thinking anything past 128KB was "huge") and doing upgrades in the late 1980s to get to 640KB, and not getting into extended/expanded memory until the early 90s. This would be for "typical" household applications (taxes, small business, word processing) - obviously image processing (CAD, movie rendering, etc.) or multi-user servers do need more memory. I also recall that it was Intel that requested to keep it to 10 segments of 64KB (640KB), not really a Microsoft or MS-DOS doing. i.e. aspects beyond Microsoft wanted to reserve the "upper memory" for other stuff (video memory). You have 16 segments, how many to hold in reserve? Someone chose 6. Quick and Dirty OS indeed. On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:47 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > So I had always heard the quote "640KB is enough memory" being attributed > to > Bill Gates. However, recently I was watching Dave Plummer on YT and he said > that it is not true: > > https://youtu.be/bikbJPI-7Kg?t=372 > > And apparently the man himself has denied it as well but it just will not > go > away... > > https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PCWorld/story?id=5214635 > > So I guess like the napkin/disk story and the DR/IBM story this is another > one of those vintage myths and folk lore with no real basis in reality.... > > -Ali > > > > --===============3885411677458543161==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Fri Jun 16 08:08:57 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 09:08:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3173481935478878137==" --===============3173481935478878137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think what he meant was ' no application needs more than 640k - the rest is for the operating system' On Fri, 16 Jun 2023, 08:43 Steve Lewis via cctalk, wrote: > I don't think Gates ever actually said this - but that's just based on my > own examination into this from a few years back. > > But, over the years I've done some thread programming, and I was once > solving a problem by loading a lot of data into main memory (like 8-16GB of > data to process as one huge chunk, on a system that only had 32GB total). > > A while later, I had a thought that actually maybe this quote has some > merit. Maybe not the specific amount (of 640KB) - but the general notion > that there is rarely a reason for a single application to consume the > entirety of main memory. It may be better, especially with threads or > multi-core, to work a problem in smaller chunks -- specifically, to work a > problem in chunks smaller than the CPU cache. And in fact, I found a huge > jump in my programs performance when I kept the buffers exactly 1 byte less > than the CPU cache (at the time that was 1MB) - as soon as I went 1 byte > over, I noticed a huge (~3X) hit in performance. Now that's just a single > data point, and the old advise of "never optimize your program for > performance too early" is probably still good. And especially most shops > won't spend the time/resources to cache optimize their builds - I suspect > some games do at startup, they maybe profile what your L3 cache size. > > > Anyhow, years ago I recall coming across a quote or an article where Gates > stated the IBM PC (or maybe the 8088 cpu itself) was designed or intended > to only "last" about 10 years. Not that the system components itself would > only last that long, but as it being a "useful" system. In that context, > maybe he was right (if he had said it) - 640K was maybe "enough for anyone" > for the remainder of the 1980s. I recall starting with 384KB (thinking > anything past 128KB was "huge") and doing upgrades in the late 1980s to get > to 640KB, and not getting into extended/expanded memory until the early > 90s. This would be for "typical" household applications (taxes, small > business, word processing) - obviously image processing (CAD, movie > rendering, etc.) or multi-user servers do need more memory. > > I also recall that it was Intel that requested to keep it to 10 segments of > 64KB (640KB), not really a Microsoft or MS-DOS doing. i.e. aspects beyond > Microsoft wanted to reserve the "upper memory" for other stuff (video > memory). You have 16 segments, how many to hold in reserve? Someone > chose 6. Quick and Dirty OS indeed. > > > > On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:47 PM Ali via cctalk > wrote: > > > So I had always heard the quote "640KB is enough memory" being attributed > > to > > Bill Gates. However, recently I was watching Dave Plummer on YT and he > said > > that it is not true: > > > > https://youtu.be/bikbJPI-7Kg?t=372 > > > > And apparently the man himself has denied it as well but it just will not > > go > > away... > > > > https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PCWorld/story?id=5214635 > > > > So I guess like the napkin/disk story and the DR/IBM story this is > another > > one of those vintage myths and folk lore with no real basis in > reality.... > > > > -Ali > > > > > > > > > --===============3173481935478878137==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Fri Jun 16 09:05:15 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 09:05:03 +0000 Message-ID: <1248810036.441760.1686906303584@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2167793613996204477==" --===============2167793613996204477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weird but I even seem to remember someone saying "who woukd been more than 64= k" Ed#=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SMECC Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:43 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: I don't think Gates ever actually said this - but that's just= based on my own examination into this from a few years back. But, over the years I've done some thread programming, and I was once solving a problem by loading a lot of data into main memory (like 8-16GB of data to process as one huge chunk, on a system that only had 32GB total). A while later, I had a thought that actually maybe this quote has some merit.=C2=A0 Maybe not the specific amount (of 640KB) - but the general notion that there is rarely a reason for a single application to consume the entirety of main memory.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It may be better, especially with threa= ds or multi-core, to work a problem in smaller chunks -- specifically, to work a problem in chunks smaller than the CPU cache.=C2=A0 And in fact, I found a hu= ge jump in my programs performance when I kept the buffers exactly 1 byte less than the CPU cache (at the time that was 1MB) - as soon as I went 1 byte over, I noticed a huge (~3X) hit in performance.=C2=A0 Now that's just a sing= le data point, and the old advise of "never optimize your program for performance too early" is probably still good.=C2=A0 And especially most shops won't spend the time/resources to cache optimize their builds - I suspect some games do at startup, they maybe profile what your L3 cache size. Anyhow, years ago I recall coming across a quote or an article where Gates stated the IBM PC (or maybe the 8088 cpu itself) was designed or intended to only "last" about 10 years.=C2=A0 Not that the system components itself wo= uld only last that long, but as it being a "useful" system.=C2=A0 In that context, maybe he was right (if he had said it) - 640K was maybe "enough for anyone" for the remainder of the 1980s.=C2=A0 I recall starting with 384KB (thinking anything past 128KB was "huge") and doing upgrades in the late 1980s to get to 640KB, and not getting into extended/expanded memory until the early 90s.=C2=A0 This would be for "typical" household applications (taxes, small business, word processing) - obviously image processing (CAD, movie rendering, etc.) or multi-user servers do need more memory. I also recall that it was Intel that requested to keep it to 10 segments of 64KB (640KB), not really a Microsoft or MS-DOS doing.=C2=A0 i.e. aspects beyo= nd Microsoft wanted to reserve the "upper memory" for other stuff (video memory).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 You have 16 segments, how many to hold in reserve?=C2= =A0 Someone chose 6.=C2=A0 Quick and Dirty OS indeed. On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:47=E2=80=AFPM Ali via cctalk wrote: > So I had always heard the quote "640KB is enough memory" being attributed > to > Bill Gates. However, recently I was watching Dave Plummer on YT and he said > that it is not true: > > https://youtu.be/bikbJPI-7Kg?t=3D372 > > And apparently the man himself has denied it as well but it just will not > go > away... > > https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PCWorld/story?id=3D5214635 > > So I guess like the napkin/disk story and the DR/IBM story this is another > one of those vintage myths and folk lore with no real basis in reality.... > > -Ali > > > > =20 --===============2167793613996204477==-- From athornton@gmail.com Fri Jun 16 17:17:41 2023 From: Adam Thornton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 10:17:25 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5383962593119368237==" --===============5383962593119368237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 640K was maybe "enough for anyone" > > Weird but I even seem to remember someone saying "who woukd been more than > 64k" > Ed# SMECC > > > And let's not forget "what's the hardest part about emulating Gerald Ford on a PDP-8? Figuring out what to do with the other 3K." --===============5383962593119368237==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jun 16 18:10:35 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 11:10:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7123720386377262080==" --===============7123720386377262080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> 640K was maybe "enough for anyone" >> Weird but I even seem to remember someone saying "who woukd been more than >> 64k" On Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > And let's not forget "what's the hardest part about emulating Gerald Ford > on a PDP-8? Figuring out what to do with the other 3K." Now, let's be respectful to POTUS, even if his accomplishments didn't add up comparable to those of William Henry Harrison. --===============7123720386377262080==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Jun 16 18:46:11 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 13:24:42 -0500 Message-ID: <0f1cfe28-78a5-fffd-1791-1b12608ae686@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3303000496255218139==" --===============3303000496255218139== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was at a Comdex once in Chicago where the featured speaker was Bill Gates and he said that Microsoft would never write a program that needed more than 256K of memory. A few years later, Microsoft Exchange Server required a minimum of 256MB of memory to run. Just for comparison my new laptop has 128GB of memory. Let's not write better code, lets just add more memory and faster processors  <- Microsoft Programmers Mantra😕 --===============3303000496255218139==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 16 19:02:41 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 13:02:34 -0600 Message-ID: <977e1305-5c01-29cd-6e7b-e7f5b67e2e1a@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <0f1cfe28-78a5-fffd-1791-1b12608ae686@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5002824955974844668==" --===============5002824955974844668== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-06-16 12:24 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I was at a Comdex once in Chicago where the featured speaker was Bill > Gates and he said that Microsoft would never write a program that needed > more than 256K of memory. > > A few years later, Microsoft Exchange Server required a minimum of 256MB > of memory to run. > > Just for comparison my new laptop has 128GB of memory. > > Let's not write better code, lets just add more memory and faster > processors  <- Microsoft Programmers Mantra😕 Lets not blame Bill for everything, Ken , Jobs and Wozniak need their fair share. Graphics and file system buffers take up more space than you expect. Ben. --===============5002824955974844668==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jun 16 19:30:27 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 12:30:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <977e1305-5c01-29cd-6e7b-e7f5b67e2e1a@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3195012795424882957==" --===============3195012795424882957== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:02 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-06-16 12:24 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I was at a Comdex once in Chicago where the featured speaker was Bill > > Gates and he said that Microsoft would never write a program that needed > > more than 256K of memory. > > > > A few years later, Microsoft Exchange Server required a minimum of 256MB > > of memory to run. > > > > Just for comparison my new laptop has 128GB of memory. > > > > Let's not write better code, lets just add more memory and faster > > processors <- Microsoft Programmers Mantra😕 > > Lets not blame Bill for everything, > Ken , Jobs and Wozniak need their fair share. > Graphics and file system buffers take up more > space than you expect. > Completely silly. You can maybe group Jobs and Gates together in terms of programming skill, but where as Jobs stole ideas from others he at least did so with class. Olsen maybe made dumb predictions but at least his products worked well. And St. Woz shall not be impugned with such blasphemous associations. Sellam --===============3195012795424882957==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jun 16 19:41:05 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 12:40:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <977e1305-5c01-29cd-6e7b-e7f5b67e2e1a@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7360898561487653336==" --===============7360898561487653336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/16/23 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote: > Ken , Jobs and  Wozniak need their fair share. > Graphics and file system buffers take up more > space than you expect. I just transferred a DC150 tar tape. Total (uncompressed) file size was 11MB. What was on it? The complete source to Linux 1.0. --Chuck --===============7360898561487653336==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 16 19:49:06 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 13:48:59 -0600 Message-ID: <7abb754b-5abe-b34d-a10d-3f6b5f3436ae@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8796778147860735806==" --===============8796778147860735806== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-06-16 1:40 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/16/23 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> Ken , Jobs and  Wozniak need their fair share. >> Graphics and file system buffers take up more >> space than you expect. > > I just transferred a DC150 tar tape. Total (uncompressed) file size was > 11MB. What was on it? The complete source to Linux 1.0. > > --Chuck > What cpu? Minix was 16 bit code only. I suspect 16 bit code here as well. Remember 32 bit code is 2x the size of 16 bit stuff. Ben. --===============8796778147860735806==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jun 16 19:52:04 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 15:51:55 -0400 Message-ID: <2D16AB32-7A35-470D-BE6F-2D97B68A8E19@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6717350606225269411==" --===============6717350606225269411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 16, 2023, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 6/16/23 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Ken , Jobs and Wozniak need their fair share. >> Graphics and file system buffers take up more >> space than you expect. >=20 > I just transferred a DC150 tar tape. Total (uncompressed) file size was > 11MB. What was on it? The complete source to Linux 1.0. Somewhat earlier, the complete source for the RSTS-11 timesharing system fit = on 5 DECtapes, 1.5 MB. And that was assembly language, exhaustively commente= d. paul --===============6717350606225269411==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Fri Jun 16 19:53:52 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 13:53:34 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7abb754b-5abe-b34d-a10d-3f6b5f3436ae@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8263188372931956771==" --===============8263188372931956771== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 1:49 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-06-16 1:40 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/16/23 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Ken , Jobs and Wozniak need their fair share. > >> Graphics and file system buffers take up more > >> space than you expect. > > > > I just transferred a DC150 tar tape. Total (uncompressed) file size was > > 11MB. What was on it? The complete source to Linux 1.0. > > > > --Chuck > > > What cpu? > Minix was 16 bit code only. I suspect 16 bit code here as well. > Remember 32 bit code is 2x the size of 16 bit stuff. > Linux never ran on 16-bit hardware, though weird pseudo-forks like ELKs have. And 32-bit source code tends to be about the same length as 16-bit source code, at least in C. Object code... can vary somewhat. On Intel 32-bit code isn't 2x the size of 16-bit object code because the variable encoding generally encodes to the same length. The data will be bigger, especially addresses, and the 32-bit intel code usually programs the MMU, which 16-bit code can't really do (well, depending on how you rate the 286 memory model). Warner --===============8263188372931956771==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Jun 16 20:12:53 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 16:12:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2D16AB32-7A35-470D-BE6F-2D97B68A8E19@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7916963564901997896==" --===============7916963564901997896== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/16/2023 3:51 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jun 16, 2023, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 6/16/23 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Ken , Jobs and Wozniak need their fair share. >>> Graphics and file system buffers take up more >>> space than you expect. >> I just transferred a DC150 tar tape. Total (uncompressed) file size was >> 11MB. What was on it? The complete source to Linux 1.0. > Somewhat earlier, the complete source for the RSTS-11 timesharing system fi= t on 5 DECtapes, 1.5 MB. And that was assembly language, exhaustively commen= ted. > Wish I had a copy of that!! bill --===============7916963564901997896==-- From bear@typewritten.org Fri Jun 16 20:32:38 2023 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 13:31:26 -0700 Message-ID: <68187D4E-6AD8-4232-A8E6-FEA0341433F8@typewritten.org> In-Reply-To: <7abb754b-5abe-b34d-a10d-3f6b5f3436ae@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3889700341526328003==" --===============3889700341526328003== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 16, 2023, at 12:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > Remember 32 bit code is 2x the size of 16 bit stuff. Are you, like, trying to play the list for laughs, with this kind of comment? ok bear. --===============3889700341526328003==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jun 16 22:56:35 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 15:56:21 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7abb754b-5abe-b34d-a10d-3f6b5f3436ae@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6356256275102410551==" --===============6356256275102410551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/16/23 12:48, ben via cctalk wrote: > What cpu? > Minix was 16 bit code only. I suspect 16 bit code here as well. > Remember 32 bit code is 2x the size of 16 bit stuff. 32-bit, I'm afraid. To quote: WHAT IS LINUX? Linux is a Unix clone for 386/486-based PCs written from scratch by Linus Torvalds with assistance from a loosely-knit team of hackers across the Net. It aims towards POSIX compliance. It has all the features you would expect in a modern fully-fledged Unix, including true multitasking, virtual memory, shared libraries, demand loading, shared copy-on-write executables, proper memory management and TCP/IP networking. It is distributed under the GNU General Public License - see the accompanying COPYING file for more details. --Chuck --===============6356256275102410551==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 16 23:49:52 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:49:46 -0600 Message-ID: <53e96a0f-bd88-1fb9-428e-bac80d280013@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55800271D72FE0C87C33E14CED58A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7413332935881133670==" --===============7413332935881133670== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-06-16 2:12 p.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/16/2023 3:51 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Jun 16, 2023, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 6/16/23 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> Ken , Jobs and  Wozniak need their fair share. >>>> Graphics and file system buffers take up more >>>> space than you expect. >>> I just transferred a DC150 tar tape.  Total (uncompressed) file size was >>> 11MB.  What was on it?  The complete source to Linux 1.0. >> Somewhat earlier, the complete source for the RSTS-11 timesharing >> system fit on 5 DECtapes, 1.5 MB.  And that was assembly language, >> exhaustively commented. >> > > Wish I had a copy of that!! > > > bill > I think the hint is to send 5 BLANK DEC tapes. Ben. --===============7413332935881133670==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 16 23:54:17 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:54:12 -0600 Message-ID: <631e6bf6-a030-aa3f-4e9f-dcb6472706fa@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <68187D4E-6AD8-4232-A8E6-FEA0341433F8@typewritten.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7323049218621546296==" --===============7323049218621546296== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-06-16 2:31 p.m., r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On Jun 16, 2023, at 12:48 PM, ben via cctalk wro= te: >> >> Remember 32 bit code is 2x the size of 16 bit stuff. >=20 > Are you, like, trying to play the list for laughs, with this kind of commen= t? >=20 It is not? 3x's better. All I know after x86 programs keep growing faster than MORE's law. > ok > bear. Ben. --===============7323049218621546296==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 17 00:04:54 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 18:04:49 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3088900754729662654==" --===============3088900754729662654== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-06-16 4:56 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/16/23 12:48, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> What cpu? >> Minix was 16 bit code only. I suspect 16 bit code here as well. >> Remember 32 bit code is 2x the size of 16 bit stuff. > > 32-bit, I'm afraid. To quote: > > WHAT IS LINUX? > > Linux is a Unix clone for 386/486-based PCs written from scratch by > Linus Torvalds with assistance from a loosely-knit team of hackers > across the Net. It aims towards POSIX compliance. > > It has all the features you would expect in a modern fully-fledged > Unix, including true multitasking, virtual memory, shared libraries, > demand loading, shared copy-on-write executables, proper memory > management and TCP/IP networking. > > It is distributed under the GNU General Public License - see the > accompanying COPYING file for more details. > > --Chuck > Was that quote written for version #1. At risk of being a troll, when did Unix (PDP 11) not have all the the above. Other than TCP/IP networking, I don't see any of above features desirable, as I feel a need for more real time operating systems. How many OS's are complete in design that you don't need to bypass the OS like MS DOS. Ben. --===============3088900754729662654==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jun 17 00:17:12 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:17:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <631e6bf6-a030-aa3f-4e9f-dcb6472706fa@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0933910603067869423==" --===============0933910603067869423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> Remember 32 bit code is 2x the size of 16 bit stuff. > On 2023-06-16 2:31 p.m., r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: >> Are you, like, trying to play the list for laughs, with this kind of >> comment? On Fri, 16 Jun 2023, ben via cctalk wrote: > It is not? 3x's better. > All I know after x86 programs keep growing faster than MORE's law. 64 bit code is slightly larger than the same code for 32 bit, which is slightly larger than the same code for 16 bit, which is slightly larger than the same code for 8 bit. But, it ISN'T the same code. The programmer is told to rewrite it, and given twice as much space to put it in. That is what you see twice the size. Moore's law was about the doubling of transistors, and indirectly about doubling of capacity and speed. After his death, are there any efforts to repeal it, or at least not enforce it? Boyle's law is that the software will expand to fill all available memory and storage, and a little more. MICROS~1 technique for dealing with performance problems is to throw hardware at it. They are certainly not unique. MICROS~1 technique for dealing with performance complaints is to blame inadequacy of the user and their hardware. "You are running it on WHAT?? That hardware has been obsolete for MONTHS! I'm surprised that it would even fit!" On an 8 bit system, with 64K or less of RAM, a word processor would load one or two pages at a time into RAM. If you scrolled, it would fetch other pages as needed from disk. Document size was limited by disk capacity. With 640K of RAM,we got word processors that kept the entire document in RAM, and abandoned the technique of paging in portions of the documant as needed. Thus there was a smaller limit on document size. I used to give some of my students an asssignment of writing a program to sort a database that was too large to fit the whole thing in memory at one time. A few insisted that the ONLY answer was to get more memory. So, each new "generation" is larger, but the software depends on that, and won't even run on the previous generation of hardware. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0933910603067869423==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Sat Jun 17 02:26:12 2023 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 04:26:04 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6562841941448778935==" --===============6562841941448778935== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 02:43:06AM -0500, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > I don't think Gates ever actually said this - but that's just based on my > own examination into this from a few years back. > > But, over the years I've done some thread programming, and I was once > solving a problem by loading a lot of data into main memory (like 8-16GB of > data to process as one huge chunk, on a system that only had 32GB total). > > A while later, I had a thought that actually maybe this quote has some > merit. Maybe not the specific amount (of 640KB) - but the general notion > that there is rarely a reason for a single application to consume the > entirety of main memory. It may be better, especially with threads or > multi-core, to work a problem in smaller chunks -- specifically, to work a > problem in chunks smaller than the CPU cache. And in fact, I found a huge > jump in my programs performance when I kept the buffers exactly 1 byte less > than the CPU cache (at the time that was 1MB) - as soon as I went 1 byte > over, I noticed a huge (~3X) hit in performance. Now that's just a single > data point, and the old advise of "never optimize your program for [...] If you want to know about max possible speedup, try to run memtest - it requires booting into the mem testing procedure. Numbers are impressive, even if the best ones are for smallest (L1) caches. > Anyhow, years ago I recall coming across a quote or an article where Gates > stated the IBM PC (or maybe the 8088 cpu itself) was designed or intended > to only "last" about 10 years. Not that the system components itself would > only last that long, but as it being a "useful" system. In that context, > maybe he was right (if he had said it) - 640K was maybe "enough for anyone" [...] For those who would like more of BG sayings, here you are: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bill_Gates There you have it, 640KB (he denies) and 6-10 years is somewhere there, too... And some more. I guess we are all prisoners of our own mental frame. I recall that Ken Olsen (DEC founder), once quipped "There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home." - that was in 1977, according to wikiquote: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ken_Olsen This claim surprised me a bit. He denied himself a hell of lucrative future market. OTOH, he was born in 1926 (BillG in 1955) - back then a phone was still a luxury... An idea that everybody could have their own phone with unique number sounded like total bollocks, I suppose (also: do we have enough women to work at the switchboard). The idea that one could have something in place of radio broadcasting (but similar in function) which would have been tailored to each one's individual gusto? Ha... Then we have folks in DRI, who were surprised when, after releasing their latest CP/M (the one capable of multiuser/multitasking, cannot dig the exact version or quote source), they found out user used those capabilities to run few programs at once (on two terminals side by side) rather than for server-multiuser thingy. Their surprise surprised me, as I quickly learned to annex neighboring vt52 (I can only guess, vt52, but made in Poland, by Mera-Elzab - looked like this one: https://www.elzab.com.pl/images/historia/8%20Mera7953.jpg ) and have edt in one and compiler errors in another - it took me only few days of doing my small assignment on university VAX. Seeing how people make this kind of omissions, I am nowadays tempted to think they were not really using their own products, or at least not too hard. Did not challenge themselves as users. BG, while I am not at all his fan... well, not too much, on the one hand he sold quite a shitty tech and became disgustingly rich from it (and this very fact could be a one-line summary of what humanity is), on the other hand, let's imagine Linux won and all those clueless people call me in the middle of the night, shit, how do I run emacs, I barked a dog at it and computer still not running. Anyway, as much as I am not a fan, I think BG was quite competent. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============6562841941448778935==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Sat Jun 17 05:26:39 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 01:26:22 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4416157978076725562==" --===============4416157978076725562== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 10:26 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > I guess we are all prisoners of our own mental frame. I recall that > Ken Olsen (DEC founder), once quipped "There is no reason for any > individual to have a computer in his home." - that was in 1977, > according to wikiquote: > > https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ken_Olsen One version of that story is he told it to David Ahl who was trying to pitch a <$2000 PDP-8 for the home market (IIRC a configuration like a 4-slot box with a KK8A, some basic I/O and a smallish MOS RAM card - too small to compete with a "real" PDP-8 system). Ken's reaction was an element of what led to David going off to found Creative Computing, as the story goes. -ethan --===============4416157978076725562==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Jun 17 14:31:34 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 10:31:27 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6C5F31-9EAB-4A17-8A5A-94ED72860DF7@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2152267641607247391==" --===============2152267641607247391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 16, 2023, at 8:04 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2023-06-16 4:56 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 6/16/23 12:48, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> What cpu? >>> Minix was 16 bit code only. I suspect 16 bit code here as well. >>> Remember 32 bit code is 2x the size of 16 bit stuff. >> 32-bit, I'm afraid. To quote: >> WHAT IS LINUX? >> Linux is a Unix clone for 386/486-based PCs written from scratch by >> Linus Torvalds with assistance from a loosely-knit team of hackers >> across the Net. It aims towards POSIX compliance. >> It has all the features you would expect in a modern fully-fledged >> Unix, including true multitasking, virtual memory, shared libraries, >> demand loading, shared copy-on-write executables, proper memory >> management and TCP/IP networking. >> It is distributed under the GNU General Public License - see the >> accompanying COPYING file for more details. >> --Chuck >=20 > Was that quote written for version #1. > At risk of being a troll, when did Unix (PDP 11) not have all the the above= . Other than TCP/IP networking, I don't see any of above features > desirable, as I feel a need for more real time operating systems. BSD 2.11 had TCP/IP. Anyway, the thing that made Linux special is not its Un= ix nature but that it is an unencumbered Unix-compatible OS. That was a big = deal back in the days of restrictive licensing run by the likes of AT&T and m= any others. > How many OS's are complete in design that you don't need to bypass > the OS like MS DOS. > Ben. For what definition of "need"? =20 I have at times needed to go around the OS with MSDOS, with OS/360 and with R= T-11, but rarely if ever with others ranging from THE to RSTS to CDC NOS. Of= course it helps to be able to write device drivers, that takes care of a num= ber of the cases. And at times I have done modifications to the OS, thought = not usually large ones. The main exception I can think of is NetBSD, where I= worked on a storage product that had all the high-speeed functionality insid= e, or more precisely to the side of, NetBSD. That and the network stack in a= separate CPU core running an entirely different very skinny RTOS known as "Q= RQ". (That's a ham radio code for "please transmit faster".) paul --===============2152267641607247391==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Sat Jun 17 14:42:32 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 10:42:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3F6C5F31-9EAB-4A17-8A5A-94ED72860DF7@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4248287151799872833==" --===============4248287151799872833== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 at 10:31, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > BSD 2.11 had TCP/IP. > Later versions of 2.9BSD had TCP/IP though the hardware support was pretty limited. And you could probably use the present tense for 2.11BSD, it's still getting patches. -Henry --===============4248287151799872833==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Sat Jun 17 14:49:29 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 09:49:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2D16AB32-7A35-470D-BE6F-2D97B68A8E19@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7326953141524038211==" --===============7326953141524038211== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jun 16, 2023, 2:52 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jun 16, 2023, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 6/16/23 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Ken , Jobs and Wozniak need their fair share. > >> Graphics and file system buffers take up more > >> space than you expect. > > > > I just transferred a DC150 tar tape. Total (uncompressed) file size was > > 11MB. What was on it? The complete source to Linux 1.0. > > Somewhat earlier, the complete source for the RSTS-11 timesharing system > fit on 5 DECtapes, 1.5 MB. And that was assembly language, exhaustively > commented. Precisely. Let's not forget the real enemy here. Commenting our code. ;-) > > > --===============7326953141524038211==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sat Jun 17 15:01:47 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 09:02:00 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1180608120533156018==" --===============1180608120533156018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 6:04 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-06-16 4:56 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/16/23 12:48, ben via cctalk wrote: > > > >> What cpu? > >> Minix was 16 bit code only. I suspect 16 bit code here as well. > >> Remember 32 bit code is 2x the size of 16 bit stuff. > > > > 32-bit, I'm afraid. To quote: > > > > WHAT IS LINUX? > > > > Linux is a Unix clone for 386/486-based PCs written from scratch by > > Linus Torvalds with assistance from a loosely-knit team of hackers > > across the Net. It aims towards POSIX compliance. > > > > It has all the features you would expect in a modern fully-fledged > > Unix, including true multitasking, virtual memory, shared libraries, > > demand loading, shared copy-on-write executables, proper memory > > management and TCP/IP networking. > > > > It is distributed under the GNU General Public License - see the > > accompanying COPYING file for more details. > > > > --Chuck > > > > Was that quote written for version #1. > At risk of being a troll, when did Unix (PDP 11) not have all the the > above. Other than TCP/IP networking, I don't see any of above features > desirable, as I feel a need for more real time operating systems. > The PDP-11 never had useful virtual memory, the 8k segment size was simply too large to do anything other that interprocess protection and have a separate address space per process. It never had a useful mmap, so it never had useful shared libraries, it couldn't demand load binaries (they were loaded entirely at startup), there was no copy-on-write sharing. Not sure what 'proper memory management' meant, so can't comment on that.... AT&T PDP-11 unix never had TCP/IP from AT&T, though an early NCP version existed and BBN's TCP stack made V7 and newer have TCP. The BSD side had TCP/IP, running in a "separate" process from the kernel (it ran in supervisor mode, to get more address space out of the PDP-11 architecture while sharing the data segments). 2.9 had TCP/IP, but it wasn't until 2.10 or 2.11 that it was really stable. How many OS's are complete in design that you don't need to bypass > the OS like MS DOS. > I've evaluated several router products, years ago, that just used Lnux or FreeBSD to load an application that took over the machine... Warner --===============1180608120533156018==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Jun 17 16:38:05 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 12:37:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5079417014426372515==" --===============5079417014426372515== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/17/2023 10:42 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 at 10:31, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > >> BSD 2.11 had TCP/IP. >> > Later versions of 2.9BSD had TCP/IP though the hardware support was pretty > limited. And you could probably use the present tense for 2.11BSD, it's > still getting patches. > Ultrix-11, which was DEC version of Version 7 had TCP/IP.=C2=A0 I use it all = the time. bill --===============5079417014426372515==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sat Jun 17 16:45:44 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How much memory? Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 10:45:27 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580CF9323E0D06AFA42312CED59A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0038384612681029719==" --===============0038384612681029719== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 10:38 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 6/17/2023 10:42 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 at 10:31, Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> BSD 2.11 had TCP/IP. > >> > > Later versions of 2.9BSD had TCP/IP though the hardware support was > pretty > > limited. And you could probably use the present tense for 2.11BSD, it's > > still getting patches. > > > > Ultrix-11, which was DEC version of Version 7 had TCP/IP. I use it all > the time. > I believe the Ultrix 11 had the bsd 2.10 tcp code in it... it had a lot of Berkeley code in it... Warner bill > > > --===============0038384612681029719==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Jun 17 19:58:13 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM 5120/5110-3 casual notes / 8" disks question Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 14:57:58 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8068040076511801027==" --===============8068040076511801027== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I finally got an IBM 5120 earlier this month, to complement the 5100 and 5110 that I already have. It had a few issues, but I did manage to get it to "boot" to BASIC. I put together a few notes about it here. Nothing too exciting, but two things I've learned: (1) the 5120 does actually still have the video REVERSE feature. (2) the 5120 has both an external (red power switch) and internal power switch (internal one is at rear below disk drives). Notes here: https://voidstar.blog/ibm-5120-aka-ibm-5110-3/ IBM 5120 (aka IBM 5110-3) — voidstar My only question is: how "universal" are 8" disk? This 5120 only came with a single IBM 8" Diagnostics disk. It looks to be in fine condition, but I've no idea about the data. So far I haven't been able to read it - it's probably more hardware/drive issues, I'm still investigating. But I'm wondering if I had other 8" disks (3M SS/SD), should I be able to format/MARK them? I've used old tape decks and 5.25" drives - but 8" drives is all new territory for me. Also, I'll be talking about the 5100/5110 at VCF next Sunday on the 25th of this month, June. --===============8068040076511801027==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jun 17 21:03:35 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 5120/5110-3 casual notes / 8" disks question Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 14:03:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4421811922225553961==" --===============4421811922225553961== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > I finally got an IBM 5120 earlier this month, to complement the 5100 and > 5110 that I already have. > . . . > My only question is: how "universal" are 8" disk? This 5120 only came with > a single IBM 8" Diagnostics disk. It looks to be in fine condition, but > I've no idea about the data. > So far I haven't been able to read it - it's probably more hardware/drive > issues, I'm still investigating. But I'm wondering if I had other 8" > disks (3M SS/SD), should I be able to format/MARK them? > I've used old tape decks and 5.25" drives - but 8" drives is all new > territory for me. I do not know anything about 5120. But, several sources mention the drives as being 1.2M That would be double sided, double density. Are you sure that you want SS/SD? One article mentioned 256 bytes per sector, which would be consistent with double density, as single density 8" was usually 128 bytes per sector. You can usually get away with formatting a SD (FM) disk as DD (MFM), but SS and DS 8 inch are different! A few quick things about 8", (which you are likely to already know) 1) write protect is opposite of the way 5.25" does it; an open notch is write protected, you need to cover the write protect notch if you want to write. 2) single sided and double sided 8" disks have the index hole in the jacket in different places. Therefore, they are not fully interchangeable. single sided disks will often have a "1" on them; double sided sometimes have a "2" "1D" and "2D" are single and double sided, double density. Some drives have two sets of index sensors, to be able to handle both single and double sided; some do not. Punching additional holes in the jacket does work to convert one to the other, which ends up looking a lot like the index holes for the hard-sectored disks. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/3M/3M_Diskette_Reference_Manual_May83.pdf figure 3 shows the locations of the index holes With a SS and a DS side by side, it's obvious; if you don't have both, . . . If you imagine a line along the read/write slot, and a line from the center of the hub hole, the SS is at a 7 degree angle, and the DS is at a 26 degree angle -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4421811922225553961==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jun 17 21:17:26 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 5120/5110-3 casual notes / 8" disks question Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 14:17:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1503626395762569134==" --===============1503626395762569134== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > 1) write protect is opposite of the way 5.25" does it; an open notch is wri= te=20 > protected, you need to cover the write protect notch if you want to write. If I remember correctly, in the 1994 "Computer Bowl", Bil Gates' team was=20 unable to answer the question about where the write protect notch is on an=20 8" disk. It is on the front edge of the disk. That helps 8" disks to=20 leave loose write enable tabs that fall off where they can do more damage. --===============1503626395762569134==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Sun Jun 18 03:21:14 2023 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CPT Phoenix Jr system unit? Monitor and Keyboard Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 20:05:51 -0700 Message-ID: <286B981C-7C84-4A5A-8BD7-173BAC1702A4@eschatologist.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3491189101166195748==" --===============3491189101166195748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jun 7, 2023, at 5:09 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Sorry I missed this, you only sent it to the list and I haven't looked at t= he list for a while. I've actually just acquired a CPT Phoenix Jr. computer t= o go with my display and keyboard, so I now have a full system that I'm plann= ing to restore and use. I've set up a group at https://groups.io/g/cptphoenixjr for discussion and pr= eservation of the CPT Phoenix JR. I've just posted a little bit about how I'm going about trying to get the ROM= booting in emulation as a way to figure out how the hardware is attached. Of= course, if you or anyone else has knowledge here, that'd make everything a l= ot easier than working backwards from the ROM code and peripheral data sheets= . :) -- Chris --===============3491189101166195748==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Sun Jun 18 18:06:37 2023 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Bob Applegate passed away Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 14:06:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0244423518991797040==" --===============0244423518991797040== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just letting everyone know that Bob Applegate passed away a few days ago. He had been battling cancer for some time. He was involved with vintage computing for some time. Here is his website: http://www.corshamtech.com/ This is the website for his memorial: https://everloved.com/life-of/robert-applegate/ Take care, Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner VCF Mid-Atlantic Event Manager Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ jeffrey(a)vcfed.org --===============0244423518991797040==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sun Jun 18 23:56:01 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bob Applegate passed away Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 16:47:08 -0700 Message-ID: <51275073-8ff5-bc86-2cac-618797aa9a5e@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8200787205194704356==" --===============8200787205194704356== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Just letting everyone know that Bob Applegate passed away a few days ago. > He had been battling cancer for some time. He was involved with vintage > computing for some time. Here is his website: http://www.corshamtech.com/ >=20 > This is the website for his memorial: > https://everloved.com/life-of/robert-applegate/ Bob made great stuff. I bought a few KIM boards off him a few weeks back. He said the treatment wasn't going well, and it didn't seem like it would be lon= g. I'm glad he's at peace. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- "The ants are my friends/They're blowing in the wind" --------------------= -- --===============8200787205194704356==-- From ball.of.john@gmail.com Mon Jun 19 04:45:50 2023 From: John Ball To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 21:45:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3EC404CD8B474745905F36D5D7B67F9C@Sparks> In-Reply-To: <168684840922.2847341.7008609002791921921@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4388199750490542551==" --===============4388199750490542551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Along the same lines as the 640K quote, I vaguely remember reading a book that quoted Bill Gates when asked about developing any software for NeXTSTEP (Probably porting Microsoft Office to compete against Lotus Improv and Word Perfect) where his reply was "Develop for it? I'll piss on it!" It's been 20 years since I saw that book and I have never been able to confirm that was something he was quoted as saying, but it would then explain why Microsoft entirely ignored NeXTSTEP (or they were just too busy working on Windows and other unix ports). -John --===============4388199750490542551==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jun 19 08:38:49 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 5120/5110-3 casual notes / 8" disks question Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 10:38:37 +0200 Message-ID: <9a883176-d08e-b026-c9e5-d9a6bcb901b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2601472491895626925==" --===============2601472491895626925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Steve Lewis wrote: > My only question is: how "universal" are 8" disk? This 5120 only came with > a single IBM 8" Diagnostics disk. It looks to be in fine condition, but > I've no idea about the data. I can answer your question very quickly: A 5120 is exactly the same as a 5110 plus 5114. This said, the diagnostics and any software apply to both systems. You can take any 5110 floppy image and recreate a real floppy from it. The format BTW is "the" standard IBM format. The 5114/5120 can handle everything from single-sided single-density up to double-sided double-density. The firmware OTOH has a predefined set called "formats", ranging from 1 to 9, with an optional suffix indicating the number of additional directory tracks (only available with DD). The list is somewhere in the manual, e.g. format 1 is SS/SD 128 bytes/sect. 26 sects/track, and format 8b (b=blank) is DS/DD 512 bytes/sect. 15 sects/track. IIRC format 1-3 are SS/SD, 4-6 SS/DD and 7-9 DS/DD Christian --===============2601472491895626925==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon Jun 19 13:13:58 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Linotype and other printing machines available Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 09:13:40 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8200299267628437574==" --===============8200299267628437574== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Contact me off list if interested: Https://www.vintagecomputer.net/temp /KAP/ Items located in Kennett Square, PA USA. Bill Https://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm --===============8200299267628437574==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jun 19 13:40:02 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Linotype and other printing machines available Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 09:39:32 -0400 Message-ID: <6F0C9F98-46BE-4ED9-BF87-CF3819C65A80@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0703148834726885854==" --===============0703148834726885854== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice. Are there matrix magazines for the Linotype? There aren't any mounted= on it in the photos shown. paul > On Jun 19, 2023, at 9:13 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Contact me off list if interested: > Https://www.vintagecomputer.net/temp > /KAP/ >=20 > Items located in Kennett Square, PA USA. >=20 > Bill > Https://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm --===============0703148834726885854==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Mon Jun 19 14:41:31 2023 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Linotype and other printing machines available Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 14:41:21 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6F0C9F98-46BE-4ED9-BF87-CF3819C65A80@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0460992115669346451==" --===============0460992115669346451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What am I missing? I can't find any photos in the links provided. I can't eve= n find a subdirectory called linotype under the temp directory? 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos =20 -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning via cctalk =20 Sent: Monday, June 19, 2023 9:40 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: Linotype and other printing machines available Nice. Are there matrix magazines for the Linotype? There aren't any mounted= on it in the photos shown. paul > On Jun 19, 2023, at 9:13 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Contact me off list if interested: > Https://www.vintagecomputer.net/temp > /KAP/ >=20 > Items located in Kennett Square, PA USA. >=20 > Bill > Https://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm --===============0460992115669346451==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jun 19 14:51:47 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Linotype and other printing machines available Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 10:51:16 -0400 Message-ID: <6A4377AC-3D95-4858-B4E5-EF58E395705D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB52693F5730C201F287FD7E20B55FA=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1639275329727450929==" --===============1639275329727450929== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The link was mangled in the original email, a later one fixed it: Sellam: Https://www.vintagecomputer.net/temp/KAP paul > On Jun 19, 2023, at 10:41 AM, W2HX via cctalk wro= te: >=20 > What am I missing? I can't find any photos in the links provided. I can't e= ven find a subdirectory called linotype under the temp directory? >=20 >=20 > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos --===============1639275329727450929==-- From ryan@hack.net Mon Jun 19 15:44:10 2023 From: Ryan Brooks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bob Applegate passed away Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 10:36:48 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3444150674321195506==" --===============3444150674321195506== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/18/23 1:06 PM, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote: > Just letting everyone know that Bob Applegate passed away a few days ago. > He had been battling cancer for some time. He was involved with vintage > computing for some time. Here is his website: http://www.corshamtech.com/ > > This is the website for his memorial: > https://everloved.com/life-of/robert-applegate/ This is really a shame. He was extremely nice and thoughtful the few times I had chatted with him. He truly cared that his customers were having good experiences with his products, and he was an absolutely fountain of knowledge. He will be missed. --===============3444150674321195506==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Mon Jun 19 15:50:20 2023 From: Nico de Jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Floppy Tape Drives Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:50:12 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <168682181944.1516385.15571932599165430266@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2200570433779853924==" --===============2200570433779853924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello I believe I have the software at home, but I will not be able to check it bef= ore Tuesday, as I am out of town for the time being. As far as I remember, th= e IRWIN drive (at least the one I have) was seen as a floppy disk, and had to= be connected to the floppy controller. I=E2=80=99ll be back Nico Sendt fra Mail til Windows Fra: Lothar Schr=C3=B6der via cctalk Sendt: 15. juni 2023 11:37 Til: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Lothar Schr=C3=B6der Emne: [cctalk] Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Fl= oppy Tape Drives Hello, I have a number of DC1000 tape cartridges, with and without relevant data on = them. I have 2 questions: 1. Has anybody the IRWIN TFORMAT software? 2. I want to make images from the cartridges. Has anybody done this? We tried with Linux Mint, but the drive is unknown. Thanks in advance Lothar --===============2200570433779853924==-- From travispierce70@gmail.com Mon Jun 19 16:13:33 2023 From: Travis Pierce To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Floppy Tape Drives Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 10:13:16 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8769729637672197669==" --===============8769729637672197669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several versions of EZTape are on Minus as well. https://www.minuszerodegrees.net/software/software.htm There is a TFORMAT.COM in the 1.13 version. > > Hello, > > I have a number of DC1000 tape cartridges, with and without relevant data > on them. > I have 2 questions: > > 1. Has anybody the IRWIN TFORMAT software? > 2. I want to make images from the cartridges. > Has anybody done this? > We tried with Linux Mint, but the drive is unknown. > > Thanks in advance > Lothar > > --===============8769729637672197669==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Mon Jun 19 16:42:32 2023 From: nico de jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Floppy Tape Drives Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 18:16:09 +0200 Message-ID: <20ade9b4-4d26-f353-f5d6-96c701691d3a@farumdata.dk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6006879456746477177==" --===============6006879456746477177== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Lothar I checked my stock, and found the drive . Irwin Rhomat model 285-EE-10.=20 Sorry, but I could not find the software Regards Nico On 2023-06-19 17:50, Nico de Jong via cctalk wrote: > Hello > I believe I have the software at home, but I will not be able to check it b= efore Tuesday, as I am out of town for the time being. As far as I remember, = the IRWIN drive (at least the one I have) was seen as a floppy disk, and had = to be connected to the floppy controller. > I=E2=80=99ll be back > Nico > > Sendt fra Mail til Windows > > Fra: Lothar Schr=C3=B6der via cctalk > Sendt: 15. juni 2023 11:37 > Til: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Lothar Schr=C3=B6der > Emne: [cctalk] Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 = Floppy Tape Drives > > Hello, > > I have a number of DC1000 tape cartridges, with and without relevant data o= n them. > I have 2 questions: > > 1. Has anybody the IRWIN TFORMAT software? > 2. I want to make images from the cartridges. > Has anybody done this? > We tried with Linux Mint, but the drive is unknown. > > Thanks in advance > Lothar > --===============6006879456746477177==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Mon Jun 19 16:49:14 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bob Applegate passed away Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 12:48:57 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <51275073-8ff5-bc86-2cac-618797aa9a5e@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9219455525087893049==" --===============9219455525087893049== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 7:56=E2=80=AFPM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > Just letting everyone know that Bob Applegate passed away a few days ago. > > He had been battling cancer for some time. He was involved with vintage > > computing for some time. Here is his website: http://www.corshamtech.com/ > > > > This is the website for his memorial: > > https://everloved.com/life-of/robert-applegate/ > > Bob made great stuff. I bought a few KIM boards off him a few weeks back. He > said the treatment wasn't going well, and it didn't seem like it would be l= ong. Yeah. I saw his update from Memorial Day weekend where he said he wasn't feeling well. On top of everything else, sounded like it was close, and it was. Since I got a KIM-1 at VCF East and since Bob wasn't there, I made a point of ordering some accessories from Bob back in April. Doubly glad I did. > I'm glad he's at peace. Indeed. -ethan --===============9219455525087893049==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jun 19 21:42:46 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Floppy Tape Drives Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 14:42:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20ade9b4-4d26-f353-f5d6-96c701691d3a@farumdata.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8005279636214825079==" --===============8005279636214825079== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have an Irsin 225 drive and associated software. I can post the latter if you'd like. --Chuck --===============8005279636214825079==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Tue Jun 20 06:10:55 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Dwight Elvey's KIM diagnostics board Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 23:03:39 -0700 Message-ID: <97f60e16-f18c-b259-c93c-0620a3a55fe2@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2047896878698977658==" --===============2047896878698977658== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have one of Dwight Elvey's KIM-1 diagnostics boards out there who would be willing to let me borrow it (I'm in southern California)? I would be happy to pay shipping and a rental cost, provide a deposit, etc. Please conta= ct me off list if you're willing and the arrangements you'd prefer. Yes, I'm aware schematics exist, but I was hoping not to place my ability to fix this unit entirely upon my ability to assemble a board if a working one is already out there. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- I went to San Francisco. I found someone's heart. Now what? --------------= -- --===============2047896878698977658==-- From plamenspam@afterpeople.com Tue Jun 20 17:08:16 2023 From: Plamen Mihaylov To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Floppy Tape Drives Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 20:08:00 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7777543819678549287==" --===============7777543819678549287== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have the same ftape drive and looking for a suitable solution to use tapeutils/dd on it. On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 12:42 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have an Irsin 225 drive and associated software. I can post the > latter if you'd like. > > --Chuck > --===============7777543819678549287==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jun 20 17:41:53 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Floppy Tape Drives Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 10:41:40 -0700 Message-ID: <1331ce47-dba2-4d41-2061-ee2b1139ab2f@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8429276342618197559==" --===============8429276342618197559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/20/23 10:08, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > I have the same ftape drive and looking for a suitable solution to use > tapeutils/dd on it. > Have you tried installing the ftape driver on a pre-2.6 kernel Linux? Old versions of NetBSD had a similar driver installation (used it, but don't recall the details--probably sometime around NetBSD 5 being the last one). Sometime after the 2.6 Linux kernel, the support for ftape was dropped completely. Another option might be to look for "hook APIs" in the DOS version of the Irwin software. --Chuck --===============8429276342618197559==-- From plamenspam@afterpeople.com Tue Jun 20 18:09:06 2023 From: Plamen Mihaylov To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Floppy Tape Drives Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 21:08:48 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1331ce47-dba2-4d41-2061-ee2b1139ab2f@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3557345210598476986==" --===============3557345210598476986== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have 2.2 kernel installed on that particular machine. What drivers/modules should I use? On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 8:41 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 6/20/23 10:08, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > > I have the same ftape drive and looking for a suitable solution to use > > tapeutils/dd on it. > > > > Have you tried installing the ftape driver on a pre-2.6 kernel Linux? > Old versions of NetBSD had a similar driver installation (used it, but > don't recall the details--probably sometime around NetBSD 5 being the > last one). > > Sometime after the 2.6 Linux kernel, the support for ftape was dropped > completely. > > Another option might be to look for "hook APIs" in the DOS version of > the Irwin software. > > --Chuck > > > --===============3557345210598476986==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Tue Jun 20 20:53:53 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Floppy recovery Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 14:53:35 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4765638613451911919==" --===============4765638613451911919== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK. I have just read in a bunch of Rainbow disks. Most of them read fine on the first, second or third try. Some have a sector or three amiss (I've not yet checked to see if those sectors are mapped to the filesystem or not). Some appear to be 'unformatted' though sometimes they read with errors. These disks have what appears to be some kind of grime/mold/??? on their surface. Is there a good way to read these diskettes? To clean the grime off and allow the floppy to spin (they all are super loud)... At the rate things are going, there will be 5-10 of these... Warner --===============4765638613451911919==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 20:59:52 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Floppy recovery Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 13:59:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5697264391005864367==" --===============5697264391005864367== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 1:53 PM Warner Losh via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > OK. I have just read in a bunch of Rainbow disks. Most of them read fine on > the first, second or third try. Some have a sector or three amiss (I've not > yet checked to see if those sectors are mapped to the filesystem or not). > Some appear to be 'unformatted' though sometimes they read with errors. > These disks have what appears to be some kind of grime/mold/??? on their > surface. > > Is there a good way to read these diskettes? To clean the grime off and > allow the floppy to spin (they all are super loud)... > > At the rate things are going, there will be 5-10 of these... > > Warner > This rig can do the job ==> https://www.ebay.com/itm/303620862566 Sellam --===============5697264391005864367==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jun 21 02:04:30 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Tape Control Software TFORMAT for Irwin 110/125 Floppy Tape Drives Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 19:04:13 -0700 Message-ID: <5e567cc8-1136-a8df-15bc-b9e7742bec76@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5390883313600684820==" --===============5390883313600684820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/20/23 11:08, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > I have 2.2 kernel installed on that particular machine. What > drivers/modules should I use? > You're looking for ftape for your particular distro. https://tldp.org/HOWTO/Ftape-HOWTO.html also: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/kernel/tapes/!INDEX.html If you're running the Debian version, the ftape package for Potato is here: https://sources.debian.org/src/ftape-tools/ Expect a bit of a struggle. Getting these old kernel modules working can be a bit challenging. Good luck! Chuck --===============5390883313600684820==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jun 21 02:06:44 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Floppy recovery Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 19:06:33 -0700 Message-ID: <0bfc779f-3c99-f681-dfd5-21bb18ace128@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1380695122378948301==" --===============1380695122378948301== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/20/23 13:59, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 1:53 PM Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> OK. I have just read in a bunch of Rainbow disks. Most of them read fine on >> the first, second or third try. Some have a sector or three amiss (I've not >> yet checked to see if those sectors are mapped to the filesystem or not). >> Some appear to be 'unformatted' though sometimes they read with errors. >> These disks have what appears to be some kind of grime/mold/??? on their >> surface. >> >> Is there a good way to read these diskettes? To clean the grime off and >> allow the floppy to spin (they all are super loud)... >> >> At the rate things are going, there will be 5-10 of these... Depends on what's making the noise. If it's dirt and heavy, I remove the cookie to a clean jacket after cleaning. If it's oxide shedding, I use a couple of drops of cyclomethicone on each side. Works every time. --Chuck --===============1380695122378948301==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jun 21 08:51:05 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Floppy recovery Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:50:49 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0bfc779f-3c99-f681-dfd5-21bb18ace128@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1678729350427518051==" --===============1678729350427518051== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 20 Jun 2023, Chuck Guzis wrote: > the cookie to a clean jacket after cleaning. If it's oxide shedding, I > use a couple of drops of cyclomethicone on each side. Is it essentially the same as silicone oil? Because cyclomethicone is just a category for three different cyclic siloxanes (D4, D5 and D6), namely cyclotetrasiloxane, cyclopentasiloxane and cyclohexasiloxane. D4 and D5 have been put on the ECHA list of forbidden substances in 2018. So, what exactly do you use? ;-) Christian --===============1678729350427518051==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jun 21 15:15:15 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Floppy recovery Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 08:15:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8789640956569736976==" --===============8789640956569736976== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/21/23 01:50, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 20 Jun 2023, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> the cookie to a clean jacket after cleaning.  If it's oxide shedding, I >> use a couple of drops of cyclomethicone on each side. > > Is it essentially the same as silicone oil? Because cyclomethicone is > just a category for three different cyclic siloxanes (D4, D5 and D6), > namely cyclotetrasiloxane, cyclopentasiloxane and cyclohexasiloxane. > D4 and D5 have been put on the ECHA list of forbidden substances in 2018. > So, what exactly do you use? ;-) This stuff: https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Decamethylcyclopentasiloxane The ECHA documents are linked. As far as I can determine, use has been restricted, not forbidden in the ECHA. The cosmetics industry would likely go bankrupt without it. I'm not suggesting that anyone drink it or bathe in it (although it is used in many shampoos), but then, neither am I suggesting people bathe in petrol either, although it's useful and carcinogenic. Manufacturing data shows that at least a hundred million tons of the stuff is manufactured yearly. I use it on disks and tapes because it's a lubricant that's both chemically inert and volatile; that is, after using, it evaporates and leaves the medium unaffected. Make your own decisions. --Chuck --===============8789640956569736976==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 03:47:07 2023 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 23:46:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8eb12084-be41-7b82-a8c3-8e50a5b083ad@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2105064756738091036==" --===============2105064756738091036== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. Could that be RPL? I have a WD800x ethernet card with netboot PROM sold with a "Netware ready" or some such workstation that it took me a bit to figure out was looking for an RPL boot server, not BOOTP/TFTP. On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 9:11=E2=80=AFPM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Sitting here paging in old stuff from my brain. I'll bet you have an > ArcNet card, and on the card it has a BIOS bootloader that was designed > to do a BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. > > Pull the card and it will probably boot normally off the floppy. > > CZ > > On 6/14/2023 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Guys...I just wanted to know if anyone has either an original user/tech > > guide or worked with the actual specific machine. Maybe there is a > > password reset util disk image floating around specific to the original > PCs > > Limited system, or a backdoor password ...that's what I am after...the > > original stuff that came with it. > > > > I learned ctrl+alt+ - toggles Turbo/ regular mode, by trial and error. > > > > Bill > > > > On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 6:36 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> What cards are plugged into the motherboard? > >> > >> What video do you have connected? > >> > >> On 3 digit error codes, 4xx was monochrome video problems > >> > >> Do you get any beeps? > >> > >> Does it have a dipswitch (SW1)? What are the current settings of it? > >> With all cards removed, and SW1 (if it has one) switches 5 and 6 off, do > >> you get beeps? > >> > >> > >> Do you have any other 5160s available? (consider swapping BIOS ROM) > >> > --===============2105064756738091036==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 04:04:20 2023 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 00:04:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5011827124304202910==" --===============5011827124304202910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Didn't see anyone mention it, but one should recall that the whole memory space on the 8088/8086 was 1M, so a 'limit' (whatever kind) of 640K wasn't the dumbest computer design decision ever made. In addition to that, Intel was telling people to get ready to jump to iAXP432 because 8086/80286 was nothing but a stopgap, and anyway the 80286 was for high-end minicomputer replacements, so why assume that more than 1M on an 8086-type CPU for PCs for an OS that was going to be obsoleted anyway was the future. KJ On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 1:26 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 10:26 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk > wrote: > > I guess we are all prisoners of our own mental frame. I recall that > > Ken Olsen (DEC founder), once quipped "There is no reason for any > > individual to have a computer in his home." - that was in 1977, > > according to wikiquote: > > > > https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ken_Olsen > > One version of that story is he told it to David Ahl who was trying to > pitch a <$2000 PDP-8 for the home market (IIRC a configuration like a > 4-slot box with a KK8A, some basic I/O and a smallish MOS RAM card - > too small to compete with a "real" PDP-8 system). > > Ken's reaction was an element of what led to David going off to found > Creative Computing, as the story goes. > > -ethan > --===============5011827124304202910==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 23 04:47:39 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 22:47:33 -0600 Message-ID: <80f9d068-4069-9f85-fc4a-1332dd3afdba@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1645295665092262502==" --===============1645295665092262502== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-06-22 10:04 p.m., Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > Didn't see anyone mention it, but one should recall that the whole memory > space on the 8088/8086 was 1M, so a 'limit' (whatever kind) of 640K wasn't > the dumbest computer design decision ever made. In addition to that, Intel > was telling people to get ready to jump to iAXP432 because 8086/80286 was > nothing but a stopgap, and anyway the 80286 was for high-end minicomputer > replacements, so why assume that more than 1M on an 8086-type CPU for PCs > for an OS that was going to be obsoleted anyway was the future. > > KJ > The 640K is a minor point.Look at the PDP 11 you had hoards virtual memory but code and data only 64kb each. Same as the Intel's small model. How long were OS's crippled by this fact? Did the iAXP432 just have 64kb segments as well? Ben. --===============1645295665092262502==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jun 23 07:37:54 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 09:37:43 +0200 Message-ID: <87562029-dd4e-cffa-b5be-3256d46de92@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2657993594186229065==" --===============2657993594186229065== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Ken Seefried wrote: > Didn't see anyone mention it, but one should recall that the whole memory > space on the 8088/8086 was 1M, so a 'limit' (whatever kind) of 640K wasn't Well, it only has 20 address bits. But it can address much more memory because it has additional information on some status pins about what segment register is used for adressing. So in theory, you could have one separate 1Mb of memory for each possible segment register. Or at least you could easily separate the stack from the other memory. Anyone here know of a design that actually made use of this? Christian --===============2657993594186229065==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 12:44:06 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 08:43:50 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7068839977973651545==" --===============7068839977973651545== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I didn't get all of the replies, until a thread already developed (below) with responses already embedded. I don't think there actually is a diagnostics disk or manual, this PCS Limited is ancient, before the corporate structure of the company was established. There are other Turbo XT motherboards that are almost right but no PCs LIMITED-specific documentation is a match to the motherboard. So, I just went forward and set up the PC working with what info I could find. I am more experienced with XT type IBM and clone systems than probably anything else, I think that PCs LIMITED box I have is just a generic clone with no frills, cheap XT clone. If it wasn't PCs Limited I'd probably not spend so much time on it. Bill On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 11:47 PM Ken Seefried via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. > > Could that be RPL? I have a WD800x ethernet card with netboot PROM sold > with a "Netware ready" or some such workstation that it took me a bit to > figure out was looking for an RPL boot server, not BOOTP/TFTP. > > On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 9:11 PM Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Sitting here paging in old stuff from my brain. I'll bet you have an > > ArcNet card, and on the card it has a BIOS bootloader that was designed > > to do a BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. > > > > Pull the card and it will probably boot normally off the floppy. > > > > CZ > > > > On 6/14/2023 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > Guys...I just wanted to know if anyone has either an original user/tech > > > guide or worked with the actual specific machine. Maybe there is a > > > password reset util disk image floating around specific to the original > > PCs > > > Limited system, or a backdoor password ...that's what I am after...the > > > original stuff that came with it. > > > > > > I learned ctrl+alt+ - toggles Turbo/ regular mode, by trial and error. > > > > > > Bill > > > > --===============7068839977973651545==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Jun 23 13:06:06 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 09:05:58 -0400 Message-ID: <20d1d694-f729-b1d4-0f49-7f4b7ed21bca@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8054969355941438467==" --===============8054969355941438467== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That was it, Remote Program Load. Simple protocol, ran at the MAC layer=20 if I recall, and worked. However it had an issue with routers and I=20 think BOOTP was easier to use with a "helper" on the switch or router to=20 handle it. Old stuff. But yes pull that ROM chip or Arcnet card and it should boot=20 to floppy or HD. CZ On 6/22/2023 11:46 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: >> BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. > Could that be RPL? I have a WD800x ethernet card with netboot PROM sold > with a "Netware ready" or some such workstation that it took me a bit to > figure out was looking for an RPL boot server, not BOOTP/TFTP. > > On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 9:11=E2=80=AFPM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > >> Sitting here paging in old stuff from my brain. I'll bet you have an >> ArcNet card, and on the card it has a BIOS bootloader that was designed >> to do a BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. >> >> Pull the card and it will probably boot normally off the floppy. >> >> CZ >> >> On 6/14/2023 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> Guys...I just wanted to know if anyone has either an original user/tech >>> guide or worked with the actual specific machine. Maybe there is a >>> password reset util disk image floating around specific to the original >> PCs >>> Limited system, or a backdoor password ...that's what I am after...the >>> original stuff that came with it. >>> >>> I learned ctrl+alt+ - toggles Turbo/ regular mode, by trial and error. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 6:36 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> What cards are plugged into the motherboard? >>>> >>>> What video do you have connected? >>>> >>>> On 3 digit error codes, 4xx was monochrome video problems >>>> >>>> Do you get any beeps? >>>> >>>> Does it have a dipswitch (SW1)? What are the current settings of it? >>>> With all cards removed, and SW1 (if it has one) switches 5 and 6 off, do >>>> you get beeps? >>>> >>>> >>>> Do you have any other 5160s available? (consider swapping BIOS ROM) >>>> --===============8054969355941438467==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 13:59:53 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 09:59:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20d1d694-f729-b1d4-0f49-7f4b7ed21bca@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5994039093283528403==" --===============5994039093283528403== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It boots fine, did I say it did not boot? I don't remember. There is no arcnet card, it's not the later model PCs LIMITED box, does not match the red label logo that came out in 1986 On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 9:06=E2=80=AFAM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > That was it, Remote Program Load. Simple protocol, ran at the MAC layer > if I recall, and worked. However it had an issue with routers and I > think BOOTP was easier to use with a "helper" on the switch or router to > handle it. > > Old stuff. But yes pull that ROM chip or Arcnet card and it should boot > to floppy or HD. > > CZ > > On 6/22/2023 11:46 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > >> BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. > > Could that be RPL? I have a WD800x ethernet card with netboot PROM sold > > with a "Netware ready" or some such workstation that it took me a bit to > > figure out was looking for an RPL boot server, not BOOTP/TFTP. > > > > On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 9:11=E2=80=AFPM Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> Sitting here paging in old stuff from my brain. I'll bet you have an > >> ArcNet card, and on the card it has a BIOS bootloader that was designed > >> to do a BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. > >> > >> Pull the card and it will probably boot normally off the floppy. > >> > >> CZ > >> > >> On 6/14/2023 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > >>> Guys...I just wanted to know if anyone has either an original user/tech > >>> guide or worked with the actual specific machine. Maybe there is a > >>> password reset util disk image floating around specific to the original > >> PCs > >>> Limited system, or a backdoor password ...that's what I am after...the > >>> original stuff that came with it. > >>> > >>> I learned ctrl+alt+ - toggles Turbo/ regular mode, by trial and error. > >>> > >>> Bill > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 6:36 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> What cards are plugged into the motherboard? > >>>> > >>>> What video do you have connected? > >>>> > >>>> On 3 digit error codes, 4xx was monochrome video problems > >>>> > >>>> Do you get any beeps? > >>>> > >>>> Does it have a dipswitch (SW1)? What are the current settings of it? > >>>> With all cards removed, and SW1 (if it has one) switches 5 and 6 off, > do > >>>> you get beeps? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Do you have any other 5160s available? (consider swapping BIOS ROM) > >>>> > --===============5994039093283528403==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jun 23 22:33:09 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 15:33:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1757481678357696376==" --===============1757481678357696376== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > It boots fine, did I say it did not boot? I don't remember. There is no > arcnet card, it's not the later model PCs LIMITED box, does not match the > red label logo that came out in 1986 You did not say it did not boot, but it was implied by saying that you got an error message when booting. Many of us misinterpreted that to mean an error message with unsuccessful boot, and asked questions about the configuration, and attempted to give some suggestions of things to try. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Still don't understand the questions about password reset/backdoor; 5160s do not generally have a password, and some folk conflated that question with CMOS (sometimes password protected) on 5170. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >>>> On 6/14/2023 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Guys...I just wanted to know if anyone has either an original user/tech >>>>> guide or worked with the actual specific machine. Maybe there is a >>>>> password reset util disk image floating around specific to the original >>>> PCs >>>>> Limited system, or a backdoor password ...that's what I am after...the >>>>> original stuff that came with it. >>>>> >>>>> I learned ctrl+alt+ - toggles Turbo/ regular mode, by trial and error. >>>>> >>>>> Bill --===============1757481678357696376==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 23:58:58 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 19:58:41 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0346231383207752569==" --===============0346231383207752569== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 6:33 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > It boots fine, did I say it did not boot? I don't remember. There is no > > arcnet card, it's not the later model PCs LIMITED box, does not match the > > red label logo that came out in 1986 > > You did not say it did not boot, but it was implied by saying that you got > an error message when booting. > Many of us misinterpreted that to mean an error message with unsuccessful > boot, and asked questions about the configuration, and attempted to give > some suggestions of things to try. > > Sorry for the misunderstanding. > > Still don't understand the questions about password reset/backdoor; 5160s > do not generally have a password, and some folk conflated that question > with CMOS (sometimes password protected) on 5170. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com Well, I appreciate that people answered my question. I sometimes ask questions and then proceed to work on it until I figure it out. There is a THESYS "MULTI/RAM card and that was the card with the password ROM. I found the dip switch "PW" and turned it off. Problem solved. The Turbo error #04 is still a mystery, but it does not prevent me from using the system. I am thinking there's an incorrect but incidental switch setting. It could be a RAM chip but I have no proof. Chkdsk returns an full 640K. Bill > > --===============0346231383207752569==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jun 24 01:58:07 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 18:57:54 -0700 Message-ID: <6ac2e496-5e54-a6f7-71bc-3cd3c0f92ef4@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3214653784944320948==" --===============3214653784944320948== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've got a few backup sets (potentially incomplete) done on MicroRSX that were created with BRU on RX50 media. I've cranked out some code to itemize the contents, but the file types are a mystery. I suppose that one has to live in that world to know (e.g. MSL) The sets appear to be (parts) of an incremental backup scheme; I think I've got at least one copy of the complete set. Would anyone be willing to have a look at the (ASCII) file catalog and suggest the application that may have created the files? Email me offlist if interested. --Chuck --===============3214653784944320948==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Sat Jun 24 17:36:22 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 12:36:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8047756169915035640==" --===============8047756169915035640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 6:59 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 6:33 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > > wrote: > > > On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > It boots fine, did I say it did not boot? I don't remember. There is > no > > > arcnet card, it's not the later model PCs LIMITED box, does not match > the > > > red label logo that came out in 1986 > > > Well, I appreciate that people answered my question. I sometimes ask > questions and then proceed to work on it until I figure it out. There is a > THESYS "MULTI/RAM card and that was the card with the password ROM. I > found the dip switch "PW" and turned it off. Problem solved. The Turbo > error #04 is still a mystery, but it does not prevent me from using the > system. I am thinking there's an incorrect but incidental switch setting. > It could be a RAM chip but I have no proof. Chkdsk returns an full 640K. > I'm very curious if it gets figured out or if there are any publications maybe around the time to help identify the parts Dell would have used. I could be thinking too simply for the college years he built them in his dorm so I'd imagine common off the shelf parts and generally just an IBM clone. I would think some other similar era computers would also have that error code. I started reading another person's post with a similar error on vcfed forums but I don't think they ever really solved it. There was an attempt to dump the bios to see what it might be checking (beyond my depth of knowledge). I guess that would let you know if it's a bios or other device printing the error. I assume you've booted it with no addon cards and still see the message. > --===============8047756169915035640==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Jun 24 17:46:22 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 13:46:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0936095730392339665==" --===============0936095730392339665== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think that the tubo mode is not happening, it's running like a regular XT. I have seen it go into Turbo mode once or twice, so there is a marginal chip somewhere that needs to be replaced. That's my final decision. Either way, I have filled the hard drive up with various software from the time period and put it out for people to use in the museum. If you're in the south-eastern PA area, feel free to stop by and check it out. The PC Limited machine from the VCForum I think is the same one as this one. I think the guy gave up on it and donated to the museum. It needed a new power supply, hard drive controller, disk drive to get it running again. I put MS DOS, removed the botched IBM DOS someone had attempted to load. Really, you're right. It's just a cheap clone, but it's a cheap clone that happens to be one of the first PCs made by what would become Dell Computer, worth saving and keeping running! B On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 1:36 PM John Herron via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 6:59 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 6:33 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > > > > wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > > It boots fine, did I say it did not boot? I don't remember. There > is > > no > > > > arcnet card, it's not the later model PCs LIMITED box, does not match > > the > > > > red label logo that came out in 1986 > > > > > > Well, I appreciate that people answered my question. I sometimes ask > > questions and then proceed to work on it until I figure it out. There > is a > > THESYS "MULTI/RAM card and that was the card with the password ROM. I > > found the dip switch "PW" and turned it off. Problem solved. The Turbo > > error #04 is still a mystery, but it does not prevent me from using the > > system. I am thinking there's an incorrect but incidental switch > setting. > > It could be a RAM chip but I have no proof. Chkdsk returns an full 640K. > > > > I'm very curious if it gets figured out or if there are any publications > maybe around the time to help identify the parts Dell would have used. I > could be thinking too simply for the college years he built them in his > dorm so I'd imagine common off the shelf parts and generally just an IBM > clone. I would think some other similar era computers would also have that > error code. > > I started reading another person's post with a similar error on vcfed > forums but I don't think they ever really solved it. There was an attempt > to dump the bios to see what it might be checking (beyond my depth of > knowledge). > > I guess that would let you know if it's a bios or other device printing > the error. I assume you've booted it with no addon cards and still see the > message. > > > > --===============0936095730392339665==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Jun 24 19:38:18 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 19:38:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6ac2e496-5e54-a6f7-71bc-3cd3c0f92ef4@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0663214921230891902==" --===============0663214921230891902== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we=E2=80=99ll all take a look?=20 Power of the internet! Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 23, 2023, at 18:58, Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI've got a few backup sets (potentially incomplete) done on MicroR= SX > that were created with BRU on RX50 media. I've cranked out some code to > itemize the contents, but the file types are a mystery. I suppose that > one has to live in that world to know (e.g. MSL) >=20 > The sets appear to be (parts) of an incremental backup scheme; I think > I've got at least one copy of the complete set. >=20 > Would anyone be willing to have a look at the (ASCII) file catalog and > suggest the application that may have created the files? >=20 > Email me offlist if interested. >=20 > --Chuck --===============0663214921230891902==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jun 24 23:39:16 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 16:39:01 -0700 Message-ID: <2a796720-9ae1-900b-fbcd-9d20283db024@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218199AED81ABA9125C54C58E420A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1206501909997525349==" --===============1206501909997525349== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: > Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? > Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. Does anyone recognize this stuff? --Chuck --===============1206501909997525349==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun Jun 25 06:10:20 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 07:10:00 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0421565523308802841==" --===============0421565523308802841== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Still trying to make sense of this thing. The problem is that one very important thing is missing. I refer to DODUMENTATION. I don't fall for this modern rubbish that a product with a thin manual is easy to use. No, the thicker the manual the better. It will probablt answr my questions. But the Greaseweazle has no documentation at all other than the built-in help, (which is what I'd expect, a reminder of the options if you know the product and can't remember the exact term used to, say, check the drive speed). If I type 'gw' at a command prompt I get the following, which at least gives the options. ------------------------------ C:\classic_computer\greaseweazle\greaseweazle-1.13>gw Usage: gw [--time] [action] [-h] ... --time Print elapsed time after action is executed -h, --help Show help message for specified action Actions: info Display information about the Greaseweazle setup. read Read a disk to the specified image file. write Write a disk from the specified image file. convert Convert between image formats. erase Erase a disk. clean Clean a drive in a zig-zag pattern using a cleaning disk. seek Seek to the specified cylinder. delays Display (and optionally modify) drive-delay parameters. update Update the Greaseweazle device firmware to latest (or specified) version. pin Change the setting of a user-modifiable interface pin. reset Reset the Greaseweazle device to power-on default state. bandwidth Report the available USB bandwidth for the Greaseweazle device. rpm Measure RPM of drive spindle. ------------------------- I can basically understand that So lets see how to write an image to a disk . I type gw write -h and get : ------------- C:\classic_computer\greaseweazle\greaseweazle-1.13>gw write -h usage: gw write [options] file Write a disk from the specified image file. positional arguments: file input filename options: -h, --help show this help message and exit --device DEVICE device name (COM/serial port) --drive DRIVE drive to read (default: A) --diskdefs DISKDEFS disk definitions file --format FORMAT disk format --tracks TSPEC which tracks to write --pre-erase erase tracks before writing (default: no) --erase-empty erase empty tracks (default: skip) --fake-index SPEED fake index pulses at SPEED --no-verify disable verify --retries N number of retries on verify failure (default: 3) --precomp PRECOMP write precompensation --dd DD drive interface DD/HD select (H,L) DRIVE: Drive (and bus) identifier: 0 | 1 | 2 :: Shugart bus unit A | B :: IBM/PC bus unit SPEED: Track rotation time specified as: rpm | ms | us | ns | scp | TSPEC: Colon-separated list of: c=SET :: Set of cylinders to access h=SET :: Set of heads (sides) to access step=[0-9] :: # physical head steps between cylinders hswap :: Swap physical drive heads h[01].off=[+-][0-9] :: Physical cylinder offsets per head SET is a comma-separated list of integers and integer ranges e.g. 'c=0-7,9-12:h=0-1' FORMAT options: acorn.adfs.160 acorn.adfs.1600 acorn.adfs.320 acorn.adfs.640 acorn.adfs.800 acorn.dfs.ds acorn.dfs.ss akai.1600 akai.800 amiga.amigados amiga.amigados_hd atari.90 atarist.360 atarist.400 atarist.440 atarist.720 atarist.800 atarist.880 coco.decb coco.decb.40t coco.os9.40ds coco.os9.40ss coco.os9.80ds coco.os9.80ss commodore.1541 commodore.1571 commodore.1581 dec.rx01 dec.rx02 dragon.40ds dragon.40ss dragon.80ds dragon.80ss ensoniq.1600 ensoniq.800 ensoniq.mirage gem.1600 ibm.1200 ibm.1440 ibm.160 ibm.1680 ibm.180 ibm.2880 ibm.320 ibm.360 ibm.720 ibm.800 ibm.dmf ibm.scan mac.400 mac.800 mm1.os9.80ds.hd32spt mm1.os9.80ds.hd36spt msx.1d msx.1dd msx.2d msx.2dd occ1.dd occ1.sd olivetti.m20 pc98.2d pc98.2dd pc98.2hd pc98.2hs raw.125 raw.250 raw.500 sci.prophet sega.sf7000 tsc.flex.dsdd tsc.flex.ssdd zx.trdos.640 Supported file suffixes: .a2r .adf .ads .adm .adl .d64 .d71 .d81 .d88 .dcp .dim .dsd .dsk .edsk .fdi .hdm .hfe .ima .img .imd .ipf .mgt .msa .raw .sf7 .scp .ssd .st .td0 .xdf ---------------- And this is where I get lost.. What are all the file suffixes (extensions?) Does the program determine the file type from that?What does each type of image file contain as regards metadata? If I specify a disk format, and there's also metadata giving the same type of information, which overrides the other? Or is it an error? What are all the pre-defined formats? What machines do they apply to? What is the exact definition of each one? What is a disk definitions file, what is its format? What are 'shugart bus units' and 'IBM/PC bus units'? As far as I can tell, the floppy drives on the IBM PC use the normal shugart SA400 interface Which options do I have to specify for a particular image file type? If I miss something, is it an error, or is there a default? In the latter case, what is it? I found somewhere a comment that certain image types were read only.It is not clear if this means they can be read by the gw software and written to a physical disk or that they can only be used with the 'read' option and thus can be created but not read. I suspect the former, but it is not specified. There should at least be the equivalent of manpages for this thing. It's getting to the point where it's going to be quicker for me to make my own device and learn how to write the software! -tony --===============0421565523308802841==-- From bear@typewritten.org Sun Jun 25 07:31:09 2023 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 00:29:54 -0700 Message-ID: <693E8888-E660-484C-821F-CBA7D12CE891@typewritten.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0490170050919643975==" --===============0490170050919643975== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 24, 2023, at 11:10 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >=20 > And this is where I get lost.. >=20 I do not understand your overbearing attitude of helplessness toward this pro= ject. I have known you on many occasions to go to far greater lengths to achi= eve far deeper understanding of far more complicated devices. Far less intell= igent people than you have managed somehow to marshal the necessary resources= to make useful headway with the damn thing. The majority of the questions yo= u=E2=80=99re demanding answers to seem to me like the kind of questions that = could be easily answered with about four minutes=E2=80=99 worth of simple exp= erimentation. What gives? ok bear. --===============0490170050919643975==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun Jun 25 08:43:18 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 09:43:04 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <693E8888-E660-484C-821F-CBA7D12CE891@typewritten.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1069877101629562533==" --===============1069877101629562533== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:31=E2=80=AFAM r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jun 24, 2023, at 11:10 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > > > And this is where I get lost.. > > > > I do not understand your overbearing attitude of helplessness toward this p= roject. I have known you on many occasions to go to far greater lengths to ac= hieve far deeper understanding of far more complicated devices. Far less inte= lligent people than you have managed somehow to marshal the necessary resourc= es to make useful headway with the damn thing. The majority of the questions = you=E2=80=99re demanding answers to seem to me like the kind of questions tha= t could be easily answered with about four minutes=E2=80=99 worth of simple e= xperimentation. It's a combination of things : I regard the Greaseweazle (or any other similar device) as a tool to help me to do something which I enjoy -- running classic computers. While I am happy to spend time improving my skills at using tools, I do not expect to have to guess at what the designer was doing. I also want to understand what my tools should be doing. Not what they seem to have done in the past. Getting some of my classics running is a big enough ob without having to worry whether or not some missing option in writing the boot disk image to a real disk has caused that disk to be mangled. The more I know to be correct, the better. I can sit down with the Greaseweazle board, the PC, a floppy drive and a logic analyser and probably find some combination of options that produces what look to be sensible signals on the Write Data line. But whether they are sensible signals is a much bigger problem. Yes, I like solving puzzles. But this shouldn't be a puzzle. If I want to solve a puzzle about reading and writing arbitrary disk formats the I'll design my own device to do it. -tony --===============1069877101629562533==-- From tingox@gmail.com Sun Jun 25 10:35:11 2023 From: Torfinn Ingolfsen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 12:34:53 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2a796720-9ae1-900b-fbcd-9d20283db024@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2484050055493709140==" --===============2484050055493709140== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 1:39 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: > > https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu > > Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files > themselves. > > Does anyone recognize this stuff? > > --Chuck > Not specifically, no. But the .RPT files might be reports - text files or printed output, so they might provide a clue. But I guess you have looked at them already and found no clues. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen --===============2484050055493709140==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Jun 25 12:36:50 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 13:36:42 +0100 Message-ID: <00c901d9a761$b27f6520$177e2f60$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <60EF46BC-E71A-4A9A-8368-45179B1D3E37@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2321086575711315683==" --===============2321086575711315683== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, It has taken me ages to get back to this, but I think I have hit an insurmountable problem. I reassembled the PSU after the PWM started working again and tested it with a dummy load and using two 100W light bulbs in series on the input side to limit the current. However, it did not work. I traced this to the 7812 regulator that supplies Vstart (PSU Sheet 1) not getting enough voltage to run, about 3.7VDC. In the same conditions the working one gets about 10 or 11VDC. I also noticed that on the good PSU the 100W bulbs pulsed and were fairly dim, but on the bad PSU they were brighter and glowed steadily. This made me suspect that the startup transformer may have been damaged. So I checked the output of the startup transformer. On the bad PSU this was about 2.4VAC, while on the working one it was about 12VAC. I lifted all 4 of the diodes connected to the startup transformer and they all tested OK. Sadly, I think this means the transformer must have been damaged. I have the facility to do a ring test on the transformer, but don't want to remove it unless there is a need to. Is there any other failure mode that I am not considering? I didn't check the inputs to the transformer, so something could be short on the input side and pulling the input to the startup transformer down. It is worth reminding anyone reading this, that the 7812 on PSU Sheet 1 did fail with a short to ground. I have included a couple of minor responses to Brent's last email to me below. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent Hilpert > Sent: 26 May 2023 17:24 > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > On 2023-May-25, at 1:43 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > > This evening I went to check Vstart for any oscillation. However, all of a > sudden, the current draw is down to 85mA and PWM has started working. I > am at a loss to explain it. I wondered if there might be a dry joint, but I have > tried a few light taps and shakes and it continues to work. Perhaps your idea > of some debris causing a short might explain it, otherwise I just don't know. > > Operation with only VStart+12 places the circuitry into an unspecified > operating region - a region outside of the design intentions. In part, several > semiconductor junctions and portions of circuitry are polarised opposite to > their normal/designed-for state. It is not surprising that you are seeing > odd/unpredictable behaviour under this operating environment, nor is it > surprising that it's different than the 'good' supply under the same operating > environment. > > So why was it in shutdown earlier the other day but not now? : > Who knows - it's operating in an unspecified region. Perhaps the room > temperature is 2 degrees higher. That's a serious point, not phase-of-the- > moon satire. Well, the weather here has indeed got a bit warmer. > > When you supplied the proper startup environment with both Vstart+12 and > Vstart-12 both the bad and good unit behaved as expected for the design. > > Why is the VStart+12 current draw higher when it was in shutdown versus > when the PWM controller IC is pulsing? : > Because in shutdown the 'Chopper Driver' transistor (PSU Sheet 2) is held > hard ON (conducting) (see datasheet). > Holding this transistor ON subtracts it's off-state current (~ 17mA) but adds > it's on-state base current (~ 37mA) and it's on-state collector current (~ > 73mA), for a net up-to ~ 93mA increase (may be less dependant on duty > cycle of PWM), to the Vstart+12 current. > Thanks for explaining that, it makes more sense now. I need to learn to look at other parts of the schematic beyond the immediate thing I am interested in because I keep missing things like this. > There remain two unexplained things here: > - Where was that unusual current-sense voltage that sends it into > shutdown coming from? > (I provided one potential explanation earlier, but it remains unknown > at this time). > > - The 51-ohm current-sense resistor in the -12V supply vs the mode > of operation of > the -12 supply remains unexplained/non-sensical. At the max current > you mentioned (150mA), > the V drop across that R would be >7V (!), which makes no sense. If I > had it in hand, I'd be > double-checking the drawing of that current-sense circuit around the > 51-ohm R as a start. Agreed that this does not make a lot of sense. I have checked the actual value of the resistor (in circuit) and it matches the schematic. I have also checked the schematic against the actual circuit and it really does seem like the schematic is correct. > > But this is not to say that either of these has anything to do with the fault you > were/are dealing with, they're just things that aren't understood at this point. > Either or both could be pursued out of curiosity or for the sake of > completeness. > > > > I am thinking I may put it back together and test with a light bulb in series. > --===============2321086575711315683==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun Jun 25 13:21:12 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 14:20:55 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00c901d9a761$b27f6520$177e2f60$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5693644818891302461==" --===============5693644818891302461== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 1:36 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > It has taken me ages to get back to this, but I think I have hit an > insurmountable problem. > > I reassembled the PSU after the PWM started working again and tested it with > a dummy load and using two 100W light bulbs in series on the input side to > limit the current. However, it did not work. I traced this to the 7812 > regulator that supplies Vstart (PSU Sheet 1) not getting enough voltage to > run, about 3.7VDC. In the same conditions the working one gets about 10 or > 11VDC. I also noticed that on the good PSU the 100W bulbs pulsed and were > fairly dim, but on the bad PSU they were brighter and glowed steadily. > > This made me suspect that the startup transformer may have been damaged. So > I checked the output of the startup transformer. On the bad PSU this was > about 2.4VAC, while on the working one it was about 12VAC. I lifted all 4 of > the diodes connected to the startup transformer and they all tested OK. > > Sadly, I think this means the transformer must have been damaged. I have the > facility to do a ring test on the transformer, but don't want to remove it > unless there is a need to. Is there any other failure mode that I am not > considering? I didn't check the inputs to the transformer, so something > could be short on the input side and pulling the input to the startup > transformer down. It is worth reminding anyone reading this, that the 7812 > on PSU Sheet 1 did fail with a short to ground. I wouldn't be too hasty to condemn the transformer. This is a mains transformer, not part of a switch mode power supply circuit. It takes in mains via the voltage selector switch, the centre tapped secondary is full-wave rectified twice to produce the +12V and -12V rails needed to get the rest of the supply going. Now, you mention the lamp limiter bulbs (series light bulbs, whatever you call them) are bright. That means they are dropping significant voltage. So the input voltage to the startup transformer will be less than mains. Which will lead to a low output from its secondary winding. Try disconnectng the mains feed to the main chopper circuit. Perhaps remove the mains bridge rectifier, or both of the inrush limiter thermistors. Anything to prevent power getting to the main chopper circuit. Power up again with the lamp limiter in series with the mains (of course). My guess is that then the bulbs will be dark and the startup transformer will give the right voltages. This would point to a problem with the chopper circuit. -tony > > I have included a couple of minor responses to Brent's last email to me > below. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brent Hilpert > > Sent: 26 May 2023 17:24 > > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > On 2023-May-25, at 1:43 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > This evening I went to check Vstart for any oscillation. However, all of > a > > sudden, the current draw is down to 85mA and PWM has started working. I > > am at a loss to explain it. I wondered if there might be a dry joint, but > I have > > tried a few light taps and shakes and it continues to work. Perhaps your > idea > > of some debris causing a short might explain it, otherwise I just don't > know. > > > > Operation with only VStart+12 places the circuitry into an unspecified > > operating region - a region outside of the design intentions. In part, > several > > semiconductor junctions and portions of circuitry are polarised opposite > to > > their normal/designed-for state. It is not surprising that you are seeing > > odd/unpredictable behaviour under this operating environment, nor is it > > surprising that it's different than the 'good' supply under the same > operating > > environment. > > > > So why was it in shutdown earlier the other day but not now? : > > Who knows - it's operating in an unspecified region. Perhaps the room > > temperature is 2 degrees higher. That's a serious point, not phase-of-the- > > moon satire. > > Well, the weather here has indeed got a bit warmer. > > > > > When you supplied the proper startup environment with both Vstart+12 and > > Vstart-12 both the bad and good unit behaved as expected for the design. > > > > Why is the VStart+12 current draw higher when it was in shutdown versus > > when the PWM controller IC is pulsing? : > > Because in shutdown the 'Chopper Driver' transistor (PSU Sheet 2) is held > > hard ON (conducting) (see datasheet). > > Holding this transistor ON subtracts it's off-state current (~ 17mA) but > adds > > it's on-state base current (~ 37mA) and it's on-state collector current (~ > > 73mA), for a net up-to ~ 93mA increase (may be less dependant on duty > > cycle of PWM), to the Vstart+12 current. > > > > Thanks for explaining that, it makes more sense now. I need to learn to look > at other parts of the schematic beyond the immediate thing I am interested > in because I keep missing things like this. > > > There remain two unexplained things here: > > - Where was that unusual current-sense voltage that sends it into > > shutdown coming from? > > (I provided one potential explanation earlier, but it remains > unknown > > at this time). > > > > - The 51-ohm current-sense resistor in the -12V supply vs the mode > > of operation of > > the -12 supply remains unexplained/non-sensical. At the max current > > you mentioned (150mA), > > the V drop across that R would be >7V (!), which makes no sense. If > I > > had it in hand, I'd be > > double-checking the drawing of that current-sense circuit around the > > 51-ohm R as a start. > > Agreed that this does not make a lot of sense. I have checked the actual > value of the resistor (in circuit) and it matches the schematic. I have also > checked the schematic against the actual circuit and it really does seem > like the schematic is correct. > > > > > But this is not to say that either of these has anything to do with the > fault you > > were/are dealing with, they're just things that aren't understood at this > point. > > Either or both could be pursued out of curiosity or for the sake of > > completeness. > > > > > > > I am thinking I may put it back together and test with a light bulb in > series. > > > > --===============5693644818891302461==-- From kgober@gmail.com Sun Jun 25 13:39:43 2023 From: Kenneth Gober To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 09:39:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2a796720-9ae1-900b-fbcd-9d20283db024@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7540982192219815037==" --===============7540982192219815037== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 7:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: > > https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu > > Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files > themselves. > > Does anyone recognize this stuff? > I don't recognize it, but the filenames give me a very database vibe. A database from back when each table was stored in a separate file. The RPT filenames hint to me that they are preformatted output (with escape codes) intended to be spooled to a specific printer later. The MSL files are small so may be either screen layout definitions or perhaps metadata describing the table files, which would be in the DTP files. I suspect the DTX files would be config/index files for the database application that managed all this, describing the content and relationships of the DTP and MSL files. -ken --===============7540982192219815037==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Jun 25 15:23:50 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 10:23:44 -0500 Message-ID: <02a8a0d4-4026-3fa6-2041-38ea6e2aa31f@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <00c901d9a761$b27f6520$177e2f60$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3586973034784318356==" --===============3586973034784318356== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/25/23 07:36, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > This made me suspect that the startup transformer may have been damaged. So > I checked the output of the startup transformer. On the bad PSU this was > about 2.4VAC, while on the working one it was about 12VAC. I lifted all 4 of > the diodes connected to the startup transformer and they all tested OK. > Well, apply current-limited 12 V DC to the output of the bridge rectifier and see what current it draws. Could be a failed capacitor or regulator, or something downstream of the regulator that has failed. (Maybe you have already checked this.) Jon --===============3586973034784318356==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Jun 25 16:32:12 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:32:04 +0100 Message-ID: <00df01d9a782$93ee10e0$bbca32a0$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <02a8a0d4-4026-3fa6-2041-38ea6e2aa31f@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3936835558967674728==" --===============3936835558967674728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Elson via cctalk > Sent: 25 June 2023 16:24 > To: Rob Jarratt via cctalk > Cc: Jon Elson > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > On 6/25/23 07:36, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > This made me suspect that the startup transformer may have been > > damaged. So I checked the output of the startup transformer. On the > > bad PSU this was about 2.4VAC, while on the working one it was about > > 12VAC. I lifted all 4 of the diodes connected to the startup transformer = and > they all tested OK. > > > Well, apply current-limited 12 V DC to the output of the bridge rectifier a= nd > see what current it draws. >=20 > Could be a failed capacitor or regulator, or something downstream of the > regulator that has failed. If you mean the 7812 on PSU Sheet 1 then I believe it is fine as I have alrea= dy tested it with a bench PSU supplying it with 15VDC and it works fine. >=20 > (Maybe you have already checked this.) >=20 > Jon --===============3936835558967674728==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Jun 25 16:33:47 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:33:40 +0100 Message-ID: <00e001d9a782$ccee0bc0$66ca2340$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0554791345124975073==" --===============0554791345124975073== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Tony. I removed the mains bridge rectifier and found it measured short= across two of its terminals, so I am ordering a replacement. I tested the PS= U, without the mains bridge rectifier and without the diodes on the output of= the startup transformer. I got 24VAC on the output of the , the lamp limiter= bulbs did not light and the fan in the power switch unit turned. So it looks= like the startup transformer is actually OK.=20 Regards Rob .> -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell > Sent: 25 June 2023 14:21 > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: Brent Hilpert ; Rob Jarratt > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 1:36=E2=80=AFPM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > It has taken me ages to get back to this, but I think I have hit an > > insurmountable problem. > > > > I reassembled the PSU after the PWM started working again and tested > > it with a dummy load and using two 100W light bulbs in series on the > > input side to limit the current. However, it did not work. I traced > > this to the 7812 regulator that supplies Vstart (PSU Sheet 1) not > > getting enough voltage to run, about 3.7VDC. In the same conditions > > the working one gets about 10 or 11VDC. I also noticed that on the > > good PSU the 100W bulbs pulsed and were fairly dim, but on the bad PSU > they were brighter and glowed steadily. > > > > This made me suspect that the startup transformer may have been > > damaged. So I checked the output of the startup transformer. On the > > bad PSU this was about 2.4VAC, while on the working one it was about > > 12VAC. I lifted all 4 of the diodes connected to the startup transformer = and > they all tested OK. > > > > Sadly, I think this means the transformer must have been damaged. I > > have the facility to do a ring test on the transformer, but don't want > > to remove it unless there is a need to. Is there any other failure > > mode that I am not considering? I didn't check the inputs to the > > transformer, so something could be short on the input side and pulling > > the input to the startup transformer down. It is worth reminding > > anyone reading this, that the 7812 on PSU Sheet 1 did fail with a short to > ground. >=20 > I wouldn't be too hasty to condemn the transformer. >=20 > This is a mains transformer, not part of a switch mode power supply circuit= . It > takes in mains via the voltage selector switch, the centre tapped secondary= is > full-wave rectified twice to produce the +12V and -12V rails needed to get = the > rest of the supply going. >=20 > Now, you mention the lamp limiter bulbs (series light bulbs, whatever you c= all > them) are bright. That means they are dropping significant voltage. So the > input voltage to the startup transformer will be less than mains. Which wi= ll > lead to a low output from its secondary winding. >=20 > Try disconnectng the mains feed to the main chopper circuit. Perhaps remove > the mains bridge rectifier, or both of the inrush limiter thermistors. Anyt= hing > to prevent power getting to the main chopper circuit. Power up again with > the lamp limiter in series with the mains (of course). My guess is that then > the bulbs will be dark and the startup transformer will give the right volt= ages. > This would point to a problem with the chopper circuit. >=20 > -tony >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > I have included a couple of minor responses to Brent's last email to > > me below. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Brent Hilpert > > > Sent: 26 May 2023 17:24 > > > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > > > Posts > > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > > > On 2023-May-25, at 1:43 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > This evening I went to check Vstart for any oscillation. However, > > > > all of > > a > > > sudden, the current draw is down to 85mA and PWM has started > > > working. I am at a loss to explain it. I wondered if there might be > > > a dry joint, but > > I have > > > tried a few light taps and shakes and it continues to work. Perhaps > > > your > > idea > > > of some debris causing a short might explain it, otherwise I just > > > don't > > know. > > > > > > Operation with only VStart+12 places the circuitry into an > > > unspecified operating region - a region outside of the design > > > intentions. In part, > > several > > > semiconductor junctions and portions of circuitry are polarised > > > opposite > > to > > > their normal/designed-for state. It is not surprising that you are > > > seeing odd/unpredictable behaviour under this operating environment, > > > nor is it surprising that it's different than the 'good' supply > > > under the same > > operating > > > environment. > > > > > > So why was it in shutdown earlier the other day but not now? : > > > Who knows - it's operating in an unspecified region. Perhaps the > > > room temperature is 2 degrees higher. That's a serious point, not > > > phase-of-the- moon satire. > > > > Well, the weather here has indeed got a bit warmer. > > > > > > > > When you supplied the proper startup environment with both Vstart+12 > > > and > > > Vstart-12 both the bad and good unit behaved as expected for the > design. > > > > > > Why is the VStart+12 current draw higher when it was in shutdown > > > versus when the PWM controller IC is pulsing? : > > > Because in shutdown the 'Chopper Driver' transistor (PSU Sheet 2) is > > > held hard ON (conducting) (see datasheet). > > > Holding this transistor ON subtracts it's off-state current (~ 17mA) > > > but > > adds > > > it's on-state base current (~ 37mA) and it's on-state collector > > > current (~ 73mA), for a net up-to ~ 93mA increase (may be less > > > dependant on duty cycle of PWM), to the Vstart+12 current. > > > > > > > Thanks for explaining that, it makes more sense now. I need to learn > > to look at other parts of the schematic beyond the immediate thing I > > am interested in because I keep missing things like this. > > > > > There remain two unexplained things here: > > > - Where was that unusual current-sense voltage that sends it > > > into shutdown coming from? > > > (I provided one potential explanation earlier, but it remains > > unknown > > > at this time). > > > > > > - The 51-ohm current-sense resistor in the -12V supply vs the > > > mode of operation of > > > the -12 supply remains unexplained/non-sensical. At the max > > > current you mentioned (150mA), > > > the V drop across that R would be >7V (!), which makes no > > > sense. If > > I > > > had it in hand, I'd be > > > double-checking the drawing of that current-sense circuit > > > around the 51-ohm R as a start. > > > > Agreed that this does not make a lot of sense. I have checked the > > actual value of the resistor (in circuit) and it matches the > > schematic. I have also checked the schematic against the actual > > circuit and it really does seem like the schematic is correct. > > > > > > > > But this is not to say that either of these has anything to do with > > > the > > fault you > > > were/are dealing with, they're just things that aren't understood at > > > this > > point. > > > Either or both could be pursued out of curiosity or for the sake of > > > completeness. > > > > > > > > > > I am thinking I may put it back together and test with a light > > > > bulb in > > series. > > > > > > > --===============0554791345124975073==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun Jun 25 16:51:48 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:51:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00e001d9a782$ccee0bc0$66ca2340$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6205117509514177370==" --===============6205117509514177370== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 5:33=E2=80=AFPM Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Thanks Tony. I removed the mains bridge rectifier and found it measured sho= rt across two of its terminals, so I am ordering a replacement. I tested the = PSU, without the mains bridge rectifier and without the diodes on the output = of the startup transformer. I got 24VAC on the output of the , the lamp limit= er bulbs did not light and the fan in the power switch unit turned. So it loo= ks like the startup transformer is actually OK. > It's possible that the rectifier just failed. Or it might have been damaged because it had to pass too much current due to a problem in the main chopper circuit. I would certainly check the chopper transistor for shorts now. -tony --===============6205117509514177370==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Jun 25 16:52:57 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:52:50 +0100 Message-ID: <00e601d9a785$7aa3e2b0$6feba810$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8098515890017962485==" --===============8098515890017962485== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Before I confuse matters too much I should point out that I was not using the= Rainbow power switch unit but one from a DECmate. I had erroneously thought = there was a fault with the Rainbow one. I think the fan supply may be differe= nt on the DECmate switch, so ignore the bit about the fan turning. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt > Sent: 25 June 2023 17:34 > To: 'Tony Duell' ; 'rob(a)jarratt.me.uk' > ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Cc: 'Brent Hilpert' > Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > Thanks Tony. I removed the mains bridge rectifier and found it measured > short across two of its terminals, so I am ordering a replacement. I tested= the > PSU, without the mains bridge rectifier and without the diodes on the output > of the startup transformer. I got 24VAC on the output of the , the lamp lim= iter > bulbs did not light and the fan in the power switch unit turned. So it look= s like > the startup transformer is actually OK. >=20 > Regards >=20 > Rob >=20 > .> -----Original Message----- > > From: Tony Duell > > Sent: 25 June 2023 14:21 > > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > > Posts > > Cc: Brent Hilpert ; Rob Jarratt > > > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 1:36=E2=80=AFPM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > It has taken me ages to get back to this, but I think I have hit an > > > insurmountable problem. > > > > > > I reassembled the PSU after the PWM started working again and tested > > > it with a dummy load and using two 100W light bulbs in series on the > > > input side to limit the current. However, it did not work. I traced > > > this to the 7812 regulator that supplies Vstart (PSU Sheet 1) not > > > getting enough voltage to run, about 3.7VDC. In the same conditions > > > the working one gets about 10 or 11VDC. I also noticed that on the > > > good PSU the 100W bulbs pulsed and were fairly dim, but on the bad > > > PSU > > they were brighter and glowed steadily. > > > > > > This made me suspect that the startup transformer may have been > > > damaged. So I checked the output of the startup transformer. On the > > > bad PSU this was about 2.4VAC, while on the working one it was about > > > 12VAC. I lifted all 4 of the diodes connected to the startup > > > transformer and > > they all tested OK. > > > > > > Sadly, I think this means the transformer must have been damaged. I > > > have the facility to do a ring test on the transformer, but don't > > > want to remove it unless there is a need to. Is there any other > > > failure mode that I am not considering? I didn't check the inputs to > > > the transformer, so something could be short on the input side and > > > pulling the input to the startup transformer down. It is worth > > > reminding anyone reading this, that the 7812 on PSU Sheet 1 did fail > > > with a short to > > ground. > > > > I wouldn't be too hasty to condemn the transformer. > > > > This is a mains transformer, not part of a switch mode power supply > > circuit. It takes in mains via the voltage selector switch, the centre > > tapped secondary is full-wave rectified twice to produce the +12V and > > -12V rails needed to get the rest of the supply going. > > > > Now, you mention the lamp limiter bulbs (series light bulbs, whatever > > you call > > them) are bright. That means they are dropping significant voltage. So > > the input voltage to the startup transformer will be less than mains. > > Which will lead to a low output from its secondary winding. > > > > Try disconnectng the mains feed to the main chopper circuit. Perhaps > > remove the mains bridge rectifier, or both of the inrush limiter > > thermistors. Anything to prevent power getting to the main chopper > > circuit. Power up again with the lamp limiter in series with the mains > > (of course). My guess is that then the bulbs will be dark and the startup > transformer will give the right voltages. > > This would point to a problem with the chopper circuit. > > > > -tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have included a couple of minor responses to Brent's last email to > > > me below. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Brent Hilpert > > > > Sent: 26 May 2023 17:24 > > > > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > > > > Posts > > > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > > > > > On 2023-May-25, at 1:43 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > This evening I went to check Vstart for any oscillation. > > > > > However, all of > > > a > > > > sudden, the current draw is down to 85mA and PWM has started > > > > working. I am at a loss to explain it. I wondered if there might > > > > be a dry joint, but > > > I have > > > > tried a few light taps and shakes and it continues to work. > > > > Perhaps your > > > idea > > > > of some debris causing a short might explain it, otherwise I just > > > > don't > > > know. > > > > > > > > Operation with only VStart+12 places the circuitry into an > > > > unspecified operating region - a region outside of the design > > > > intentions. In part, > > > several > > > > semiconductor junctions and portions of circuitry are polarised > > > > opposite > > > to > > > > their normal/designed-for state. It is not surprising that you are > > > > seeing odd/unpredictable behaviour under this operating > > > > environment, nor is it surprising that it's different than the > > > > 'good' supply under the same > > > operating > > > > environment. > > > > > > > > So why was it in shutdown earlier the other day but not now? : > > > > Who knows - it's operating in an unspecified region. Perhaps the > > > > room temperature is 2 degrees higher. That's a serious point, not > > > > phase-of-the- moon satire. > > > > > > Well, the weather here has indeed got a bit warmer. > > > > > > > > > > > When you supplied the proper startup environment with both > > > > Vstart+12 and > > > > Vstart-12 both the bad and good unit behaved as expected for the > > design. > > > > > > > > Why is the VStart+12 current draw higher when it was in shutdown > > > > versus when the PWM controller IC is pulsing? : > > > > Because in shutdown the 'Chopper Driver' transistor (PSU Sheet 2) > > > > is held hard ON (conducting) (see datasheet). > > > > Holding this transistor ON subtracts it's off-state current (~ > > > > 17mA) but > > > adds > > > > it's on-state base current (~ 37mA) and it's on-state collector > > > > current (~ 73mA), for a net up-to ~ 93mA increase (may be less > > > > dependant on duty cycle of PWM), to the Vstart+12 current. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for explaining that, it makes more sense now. I need to learn > > > to look at other parts of the schematic beyond the immediate thing I > > > am interested in because I keep missing things like this. > > > > > > > There remain two unexplained things here: > > > > - Where was that unusual current-sense voltage that sends it > > > > into shutdown coming from? > > > > (I provided one potential explanation earlier, but it > > > > remains > > > unknown > > > > at this time). > > > > > > > > - The 51-ohm current-sense resistor in the -12V supply vs > > > > the mode of operation of > > > > the -12 supply remains unexplained/non-sensical. At the max > > > > current you mentioned (150mA), > > > > the V drop across that R would be >7V (!), which makes no > > > > sense. If > > > I > > > > had it in hand, I'd be > > > > double-checking the drawing of that current-sense circuit > > > > around the 51-ohm R as a start. > > > > > > Agreed that this does not make a lot of sense. I have checked the > > > actual value of the resistor (in circuit) and it matches the > > > schematic. I have also checked the schematic against the actual > > > circuit and it really does seem like the schematic is correct. > > > > > > > > > > > But this is not to say that either of these has anything to do > > > > with the > > > fault you > > > > were/are dealing with, they're just things that aren't understood > > > > at this > > > point. > > > > Either or both could be pursued out of curiosity or for the sake > > > > of completeness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am thinking I may put it back together and test with a light > > > > > bulb in > > > series. > > > > > > > > > > --===============8098515890017962485==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun Jun 25 16:57:57 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 12:57:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2a796720-9ae1-900b-fbcd-9d20283db024@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5937699313577583367==" --===============5937699313577583367== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/24/2023 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: >> Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? >> Power of the internet! > Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: > > https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu > > Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files > themselves. > > Does anyone recognize this stuff? With the exception of CMD and TMP those are not RSX files at all.  You would need to read documentation on the application that created them to find out what they actually are. bill --===============5937699313577583367==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun Jun 25 17:00:41 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 18:00:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00e601d9a785$7aa3e2b0$6feba810$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2105918002240219246==" --===============2105918002240219246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 5:52=E2=80=AFPM Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Before I confuse matters too much I should point out that I was not using t= he Rainbow power switch unit but one from a DECmate. I had erroneously though= t there was a fault with the Rainbow one. I think the fan supply may be diffe= rent on the DECmate switch, so ignore the bit about the fan turning. It appears that there are 2 ways of powering (different types of) fans with this power supply. Whether one was used in the Rainbow and the other in the Decmate I know not. But anyway : A 12V DC fan running off the DC output of the power supply. This is the one shown in my schemtic for the supply. Note the jumper link in the fan power plug that means the supply doesn't get mains if you forget to plug the fan in. A 115V AC fan connected to the unused pair of pins on the AC input cable to the power supply (top right of the 'switch/fan assy' in my schematc. This uses the primary winding of the startup transformer as an autotransformer on 230V mains. Note that the latter fan will run if the chopper side of things is dead, the former won't. -tony --===============2105918002240219246==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Jun 25 17:05:19 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 18:05:12 +0100 Message-ID: <00e701d9a787$34805730$9d810590$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3120823116334215287==" --===============3120823116334215287== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes the chopper did blow up and I have since replaced it. So hopefully this i= s the last part that needs to be replaced! Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell > Sent: 25 June 2023 17:52 > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 5:33=E2=80=AFPM Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > > Thanks Tony. I removed the mains bridge rectifier and found it measured > short across two of its terminals, so I am ordering a replacement. I tested= the > PSU, without the mains bridge rectifier and without the diodes on the output > of the startup transformer. I got 24VAC on the output of the , the lamp lim= iter > bulbs did not light and the fan in the power switch unit turned. So it look= s like > the startup transformer is actually OK. > > >=20 >=20 > It's possible that the rectifier just failed. Or it might have been damaged > because it had to pass too much current due to a problem in the main > chopper circuit. I would certainly check the chopper transistor for shorts > now. >=20 > -tony --===============3120823116334215287==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jun 25 17:06:06 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 10:05:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0117925744865205282==" --===============0117925744865205282== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/25/23 06:39, Kenneth Gober wrote: > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 7:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > I don't recognize it, but the filenames give me a very database vibe. A > database from back when each table was stored in a separate file. > The RPT filenames hint to me that they are preformatted output (with > escape codes) intended to be spooled to a specific printer later. > The MSL files are small so may be either screen layout definitions > or perhaps metadata describing the table files, which would be in the > DTP files. I suspect the DTX files would be config/index files for > the database application that managed all this, describing the > content and relationships of the DTP and MSL files. I figured that there was a database application involved, but it's not clear if it was used simply for quick access or if it represents part of the data stored. I was hoping that the file layout might ring a bell in someone's mind and an application be identified. That's typical for a lot of what I run into--people back up data, but never the program that created it. Even worse, the backups are missing volumes, such that even if you had the restore program, it would error out. So for example, I have a number of partial backup sets, but they're missing the first volume. It's possible to dig data out of the rest from the backup block headers, but any association with a file name has been lost. BRU? Give me TAR any day... Makes for lots of fun and games. Thanks, anyway. --Chuck --===============0117925744865205282==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun Jun 25 17:06:51 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 18:06:44 +0100 Message-ID: <00e801d9a787$6b867de0$429379a0$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5937465163052091685==" --===============5937465163052091685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell > Sent: 25 June 2023 18:00 > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 5:52=E2=80=AFPM Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > > Before I confuse matters too much I should point out that I was not using > the Rainbow power switch unit but one from a DECmate. I had erroneously > thought there was a fault with the Rainbow one. I think the fan supply may > be different on the DECmate switch, so ignore the bit about the fan turning. >=20 > It appears that there are 2 ways of powering (different types of) fans with= this > power supply. Whether one was used in the Rainbow and the other in the > Decmate I know not. But anyway : >=20 > A 12V DC fan running off the DC output of the power supply. This is the one > shown in my schemtic for the supply. Note the jumper link in the fan power > plug that means the supply doesn't get mains if you forget to plug the fan = in. That is what I failed to notice and I thought that somehow there was a fault = in the switch unit.=20 >=20 > A 115V AC fan connected to the unused pair of pins on the AC input cable to > the power supply (top right of the 'switch/fan assy' in my schematc. This u= ses > the primary winding of the startup transformer as an autotransformer on > 230V mains. >=20 > Note that the latter fan will run if the chopper side of things is dead, the > former won't. >=20 > -tony --===============5937465163052091685==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Sun Jun 25 19:16:02 2023 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 21:15:53 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2a796720-9ae1-900b-fbcd-9d20283db024@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4603888076061101849==" --===============4603888076061101849== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: > > Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? > > Power of the internet! > > Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: > > https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu > > Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files > themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: cat theXfile.x | strings | less It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. Also, comparing cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c cat theXfile.x | wc -c would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of it is something else. All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============4603888076061101849==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jun 25 19:34:21 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 12:34:04 -0700 Message-ID: <993945ad-b499-6801-87b5-dfc534c6619d@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8990065058996525947==" --===============8990065058996525947== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/25/23 12:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you > can: I know what's in the files, that's easy. What I don't know is what created/used them. Recovering the content is fairly straightforward. Similarly, even on the BRU backup sets that are missing volume 1, I can recover most of the data, but all I'll have is file numbers, not names. So no one knows what used these files? Thanks, Chuck --===============8990065058996525947==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun Jun 25 19:39:59 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 19:39:52 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1982457987339683318==" --===============1982457987339683318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and lookin= g for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual st= udio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Co= de, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is= it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk w= rote: =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wro= te: On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we=E2=80=99ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: cat theXfile.x | strings | less It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. Also, comparing cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c cat theXfile.x | wc -c would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of it is something else. All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============1982457987339683318==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun Jun 25 19:44:08 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 19:44:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181EB2869F5FD91E5CE7D85E421A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8699484477230555197==" --===============8699484477230555197== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame. So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S wrote: =EF=BB=BF Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them = and looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like= visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL= Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is= it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk w= rote: =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wro= te: On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we=E2=80=99ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: cat theXfile.x | strings | less It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. Also, comparing cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c cat theXfile.x | wc -c would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of it is something else. All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============8699484477230555197==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sun Jun 25 19:50:47 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 13:50:29 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181E108BB235C9BF2A41A6EE421A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5930329863558192163==" --===============5930329863558192163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 1:44 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame. > So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ? > Chances are good if it is 86, then there'd be a pro port... these were reported extensively in the trade rags of the day, but sales weren't so it may be hard to say. Also, there were a few accounting packages that were also on cp/m and the PC so that might help... Though connecting press reports to these files might be hard... Warner Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S wrote: > >  Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and > looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like > visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, > MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl > > Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? > Is it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk > wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: > Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? > Power of the internet! > > Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: > > https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu > > Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files > themselves. > > If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you > can: > > strings < theXfile.x | less > > Sometimes also: > > hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less > > Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: > > cat theXfile.x | strings | less > > It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case > of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. > > Also, comparing > > cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c > cat theXfile.x | wc -c > > would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of > it is something else. > > All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. > > HTH > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** > --===============5930329863558192163==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun Jun 25 19:54:01 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 19:53:54 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181E108BB235C9BF2A41A6EE421A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4214817625004579572==" --===============4214817625004579572== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Might want to look at the login.cmd file and see if any logical variables/com= mands are defined that might give clues. Also, the .rpt files might have a header that gives some info about the progr= am. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:44, Wayne S wrote: =EF=BB=BF The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame. So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S wrote: =EF=BB=BF Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them = and looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like= visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL= Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is= it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk w= rote: =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wro= te: On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we=E2=80=99ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: cat theXfile.x | strings | less It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. Also, comparing cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c cat theXfile.x | wc -c would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of it is something else. All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============4214817625004579572==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun Jun 25 20:02:56 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 20:02:50 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218183771E601E3B940ED57BE421A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0396810766141962275==" --===============0396810766141962275== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .dtx files IIRC were created by Tex and Latex which fit in with rsx11 and DE= C software. So maybe that is it? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:53, Wayne S wrote: =EF=BB=BF Might want to look at the login.cmd file and see if any logical var= iables/commands are defined that might give clues. Also, the .rpt files might have a header that gives some info about the progr= am. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:44, Wayne S wrote: =EF=BB=BF The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame. So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S wrote: =EF=BB=BF Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them = and looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like= visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL= Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is= it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk w= rote: =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wro= te: On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we=E2=80=99ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: cat theXfile.x | strings | less It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. Also, comparing cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c cat theXfile.x | wc -c would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of it is something else. All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============0396810766141962275==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jun 25 20:45:35 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 13:45:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181EB2869F5FD91E5CE7D85E421A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5159369277552711035==" --===============5159369277552711035== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/25/23 12:39, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and look= ing for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual = studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source = Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl >=20 > Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? = Is it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? The volume label pretty much says it all--it's an office journal of phone calls, mail, conversations, etc. Basically standard commercial CYA notes. Was there a MicroRSX application sold for this task? My guess is that the customer will happy for a simple un-indexed linear list, so I'll go with that. --Chuck --===============5159369277552711035==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Jun 25 21:13:38 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 16:13:32 -0500 Message-ID: <3b0ec999-0882-c6b8-23a9-7d8a621985b3@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5360071498970678157==" --===============5360071498970678157== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/25/23 14:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: >>> Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? >>> Power of the internet! >> Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: >> >> https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu >> >> Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files >> themselves. > If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you > can: > > strings < theXfile.x | less > > Sometimes also: > > hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less > On Linux, I use od to pick through files to figure out what format they are.  Lots of archive and compressor programs put a few bytes at the beginning that identifies what utility was used. od -c filename | more give a page by page look at the ASCII character representation. od -x is hex output of 16-bit words, od -d does 16-bit words as decimal, and so on. Jon --===============5360071498970678157==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Jun 25 21:18:51 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 16:18:44 -0500 Message-ID: <72a70ffe-da85-2f56-fd8b-2bc8d9207e2a@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21812B01645509BF378A072CE421A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6600951672456277803==" --===============6600951672456277803== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/25/23 15:02, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > .dtx files IIRC were created by Tex and Latex which fit in with rsx11 and = DEC software. So maybe that is it? > I tried to compile TeX for RSX-11M on an 11/45, and it was=20 an utter failure.=C2=A0 Maybe somebody hacked TeX down to fit on=20 an 11, but I never heard of it.=C2=A0 We did get it running on=20 VAX/VMS on a 11/780.=C2=A0 The versions of TeX I have used=20 produce .dvi files, which can then be converted to .ps or .pdf. Jon --===============6600951672456277803==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jun 25 21:24:12 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 14:24:02 -0700 Message-ID: <0ee4afe7-6b47-b48b-8781-889131b4905b@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <3b0ec999-0882-c6b8-23a9-7d8a621985b3@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5290106041310955070==" --===============5290106041310955070== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/25/23 14:13, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > od -x is hex output of 16-bit words, od -d does 16-bit words as decimal, > and so on. I have a small bash script that looks like this: #! /bin/bash for x in $*; do hexdump -C $x | less; done --Chuck --===============5290106041310955070==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun Jun 25 23:59:19 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 19:59:07 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181EB2869F5FD91E5CE7D85E421A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1550257858517599361==" --===============1550257858517599361== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/25/2023 3:39 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and look= ing for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual = studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source = Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl > > Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? = Is it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications.=C2=A0 Trying to=20 guess what application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.=C2=A0= =20 Does the "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have created those files? bill --===============1550257858517599361==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jun 26 00:00:27 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 20:00:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181E108BB235C9BF2A41A6EE421A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8991757147237042358==" --===============8991757147237042358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/25/2023 3:44 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame. > So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ? See my previous response.  :-) bill --===============8991757147237042358==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Mon Jun 26 00:05:39 2023 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 02:05:31 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <993945ad-b499-6801-87b5-dfc534c6619d@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4442284715792335531==" --===============4442284715792335531== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 12:34:04PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/25/23 12:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > > > If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you > > can: > > I know what's in the files, that's easy. What I don't know is what > created/used them. Recovering the content is fairly straightforward. Perhaps you could have some luck with file command: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_(command) and: mkdir /tmp/checks cp kart*.fs /tmp/checks/kart ## this is something in Forth cp kart*.awk /tmp/checks/kart2 ## and something in awk cp /usr/share/file/magic.mgc /tmp/checks/img ## file's own magic database finally: --- $ file /tmp/checks/* /tmp/checks/img: magic binary file for file(1) cmd (version 16) (little endian) /tmp/checks/kart: ASCII text /tmp/checks/kart2: awk or perl script, ASCII text So it sometimes works, might work for you, too. Perhaps there is some older magic database which could contain the relevant info (later scrapped as no longer needed). Perhaps there could be a magick database for classic interest. No more ideas (for now, at least). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============4442284715792335531==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jun 26 00:26:34 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:26:22 -0700 Message-ID: <21a01ee5-c013-816f-cefe-3e614128c11a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580E8A317B8FC4E64EC9A35ED21A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7840673684671140139==" --===============7840673684671140139== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications.  Trying to > guess what > > application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.  > Does the > > "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have > > created those files? The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. --Chuck --===============7840673684671140139==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Jun 26 02:00:45 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 02:00:38 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <21a01ee5-c013-816f-cefe-3e614128c11a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6065433166352131202==" --===============6065433166352131202== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember that th Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 25, 2023, at 17:26, Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to >> guess what >>=20 >> application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.=20 >> Does the >>=20 >> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have >>=20 >> created those files? >=20 > The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. >=20 > Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. >=20 > --Chuck --===============6065433166352131202==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Jun 26 02:01:19 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 02:01:13 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181745F1AD2B4E79FDBFE97E426A=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5651064457007112351==" --===============5651064457007112351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry disregard.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 25, 2023, at 19:00, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI remember that th >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >>> On Jun 25, 2023, at 17:26, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFOn 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to >>> guess what >>>=20 >>> application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.=20 >>> Does the >>>=20 >>> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might ha= ve >>>=20 >>> created those files? >>=20 >> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. >>=20 >> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. >>=20 >> --Chuck --===============5651064457007112351==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jun 26 11:16:36 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 07:16:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <21a01ee5-c013-816f-cefe-3e614128c11a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3744468514038408301==" --===============3744468514038408301== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications.  Trying to >> guess what >> >> application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. >> Does the >> >> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have >> >> created those files? > The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. > > Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. Actually, there was.  It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It consisted of a number of packages and was a complete business operations system. bill --===============3744468514038408301==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 12:05:46 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 07:05:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9012333021700048870==" --===============9012333021700048870== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VCF SW was this past weekend near Dallas, Texas. Here are some highlights from my perspective. https://voidstar.blog/vcf-southwest-2023/ Most photos you can click to enlarge (Edge has bugs with WordPress, you may need to scroll up/down a little bit to get the click thing working) Cheers, Steve --===============9012333021700048870==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 12:12:05 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 13:11:48 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6796284870469316438==" --===============6796284870469316438== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 1:06 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > VCF SW was this past weekend near Dallas, Texas. > > Here are some highlights from my perspective. > > https://voidstar.blog/vcf-southwest-2023/ > > > Most photos you can click to enlarge (Edge has bugs with WordPress, you may > need to scroll up/down a little bit to get the click thing working) I may be talking nonsense, but you describe the Tektronix 4054 as a 6800-based system. I thought the 4051 used that processor, but the 4052 and 4054 used a board of AM2900-series bitslice chips that implement a processor with an instruction set similar to the 6800 but with no BCD operations and some 16 bit extensions. -tony --===============6796284870469316438==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jun 26 14:07:09 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 10:07:00 -0400 Message-ID: <5EBA253C-F0FC-44B9-80A0-024BB39C468C@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558055145B43185ADCDC0863ED26A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0977140530192990349==" --===============0977140530192990349== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to >>> guess what >>>=20 >>> application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. >>> Does the >>>=20 >>> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might ha= ve >>>=20 >>> created those files? >> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. >>=20 >> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. >=20 >=20 > Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It consiste= d of a > number of packages and was a complete business operations system. >=20 >=20 > bill On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a trimmed-down va= riant of "ALL-IN-ONE". paul --===============0977140530192990349==-- From jbglaw@lug-owl.de Mon Jun 26 14:37:58 2023 From: Jan-Benedict Glaw To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] H7819-AA / VAXstation 4000/90 and 4000/96 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 16:28:36 +0200 Message-ID: <20230626142836.tlo4taiitflaucva@lug-owl.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3609779142319451156==" --===============3609779142319451156== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi! As I'm preparing to setup my old hardware, I fetched two VAXstations (4000/90 and /96) from storage and cleaned one of them throughoutly. Then I gave power (to both of them), but both won't really start: all 8 diag LEDs are on (--> power available but CPU didn't start executing instructions.) I took the PSU (from the cleaned /90), a DEC H7819-AA, and measured it. Unfortunately I didn't find pinouts or schematics at a first search. The plate states that there should be 3.3V, 5V, 12V, -12V and -9V. I found most of that: +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | o | | DEC H7819-AA PSU 10 +---+ 1 | | (view at the bottom side) | | | | | | | | | | | | 18 +---+ 9 | | o | | +-------+ +-------+ | | | Fan | | Fan | | +----------------+-------+----+-------+----------------------------+ With above pin numbering, this is what I could find / measure / deduce: 3V3 brown 10 1 blue 12V 3V3 brown 11 2 black GND GND black 12 3 red 5V GND black 13 4 red 5V GND black 14 5 black GND 5V red 15 6 black GND 5V red 16 7 white -12V 5V red 17 8 blue (0.78V) (4.91V) lilac 18 9 brown (-1.65V) Most values look plausible, except those three in parentheses. At least one of them should probably be -9V wrt. GND I guess, but that's totally absent. And what's the other two? (If I got the colors wrong: Please forgive, I'm red-green blind.) That could be some "power-okay" indicator, or external switch-off? Maybe anybody has faced these issues and can point me to some docs or "well known to be failing" capacitors? I'd be quite grateful for any hints! :) ...and hope that maybe the above drawing/measurements will be helpful for anybody else later on. Thanks, Jan-Benedict -- --===============3609779142319451156==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 14:45:32 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: H7819-AA / VAXstation 4000/90 and 4000/96 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 15:45:14 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230626142836.tlo4taiitflaucva@lug-owl.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3035941474712531395==" --===============3035941474712531395== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:38 PM Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > > Hi! > > As I'm preparing to setup my old hardware, I fetched two VAXstations > (4000/90 and /96) from storage and cleaned one of them throughoutly. > > Then I gave power (to both of them), but both won't really start: > all 8 diag LEDs are on (--> power available but CPU didn't start > executing instructions.) > > I took the PSU (from the cleaned /90), a DEC H7819-AA, and measured > it. Unfortunately I didn't find pinouts or schematics at a first > search. The plate states that there should be 3.3V, 5V, 12V, -12V and > -9V. I found most of that: > > > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | o | > | DEC H7819-AA PSU 10 +---+ 1 | > | (view at the bottom side) | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | 18 +---+ 9 | > | o | > | +-------+ +-------+ | > | | Fan | | Fan | | > +----------------+-------+----+-------+----------------------------+ > > With above pin numbering, this is what I could find / measure / deduce: > > 3V3 brown 10 1 blue 12V > 3V3 brown 11 2 black GND > GND black 12 3 red 5V > GND black 13 4 red 5V > GND black 14 5 black GND > 5V red 15 6 black GND > 5V red 16 7 white -12V > 5V red 17 8 blue (0.78V) > (4.91V) lilac 18 9 brown (-1.65V) > > Most values look plausible, except those three in parentheses. At > least one of them should probably be -9V wrt. GND I guess, but that's > totally absent. And what's the other two? (If I got the colors wrong: > Please forgive, I'm red-green blind.) That could be some "power-okay" > indicator, or external switch-off? I don't know this machine at all (too modern :-)) but that -9V sounds at thought it might be for an internal ethernet transceiver. Now an ethernet transceiver is supposed to be isolated from ground and one way of helping with that is to have a totally isolated 9V output on the power supply with its own 'ground', not connected to the ground for the rest of the supplies. Using a high impedence voltmeter like most DMMs, you'd see random noise voltages on those 2 lines wrt the normal ground. What voltage do you measure between the suspect blue and brown wires? Connect your meter between them, not to the black ground and something else. -tony 'There is no such thing as ground' -- Don Vonada --===============3035941474712531395==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jun 26 14:48:11 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 07:46:52 -0700 Message-ID: <75a69cbd-0a1b-0963-dace-c81a012ce9f1@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558055145B43185ADCDC0863ED26A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3312833041611536169==" --===============3312833041611536169== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/26/23 04:16, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Actually, there was.  It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It > consisted of a > > number of packages and was a complete business operations system. That would fit perfectly, given the source of the disks, which were probably created by an executive assistant/secretary. The selection of files archived by BRU would also likely be dictated by the package. The contents of most of the files containing text seem to be consistent with a journal/notebook kept by such a person. At least this ties down the source, if not the use of the data. Welcome to my world. Now, on to a batch of Wang 2200 floppies whose content that not even Jim Battle appears to recognize. --Chuck --===============3312833041611536169==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:57:44 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 11:57:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4554153440561221604==" --===============4554153440561221604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think you're right - I hadn't realized such a shift from the 4051, but makes sense. Demos of the original 4051 that I've seen, the system seemed "painfully slow." Updated to try to clarify, thanks! On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 7:12 AM Tony Duell wrote: > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 1:06 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > > > > VCF SW was this past weekend near Dallas, Texas. > > > > Here are some highlights from my perspective. > > > > https://voidstar.blog/vcf-southwest-2023/ > > > > > > Most photos you can click to enlarge (Edge has bugs with WordPress, you > may > > need to scroll up/down a little bit to get the click thing working) > > I may be talking nonsense, but you describe the Tektronix 4054 as a > 6800-based system. I thought the 4051 used that processor, but the > 4052 and 4054 used a board of AM2900-series bitslice chips that > implement a processor with an instruction set similar to the 6800 but > with no BCD operations and some 16 bit extensions. > > -tony > --===============4554153440561221604==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Jun 26 17:36:23 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 10:36:20 -0700 Message-ID: <006701d9a854$b90a75d0$2b1f6170$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8604728606701328239==" --===============8604728606701328239== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > VCF SW was this past weekend near Dallas, Texas. >=20 > Here are some highlights from my perspective. >=20 > https://voidstar.blog/vcf-southwest-2023/ >=20 Man there is always cooler stuff at the other VCFs the n VCFW. Just looking a= t those pictures the Compaq 468 Portable is nice and the NEC Multisync XL imm= ediately caught my eye. I've had my eye out for one of those for a loooong ti= me. Nice pictures and thanks for sharing! -Ali --===============8604728606701328239==-- From jbglaw@lug-owl.de Mon Jun 26 18:06:15 2023 From: Jan-Benedict Glaw To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: H7819-AA / VAXstation 4000/90 and 4000/96 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 20:06:08 +0200 Message-ID: <20230626180608.semwwoln4ooslji7@lug-owl.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2842810035937921647==" --===============2842810035937921647== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tony! On Mon, 2023-06-26 15:45:14 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:38=E2=80=AFPM Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > > As I'm preparing to setup my old hardware, I fetched two VAXstations > > (4000/90 and /96) from storage and cleaned one of them throughoutly. > > > > Then I gave power (to both of them), but both won't really start: > > all 8 diag LEDs are on (--> power available but CPU didn't start > > executing instructions.) > > > > I took the PSU (from the cleaned /90), a DEC H7819-AA, and measured > > it. Unfortunately I didn't find pinouts or schematics at a first > > search. The plate states that there should be 3.3V, 5V, 12V, -12V and > > -9V. I found most of that: > > > > > > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > | o | > > | DEC H7819-AA PSU 10 +---+ 1 | > > | (view at the bottom side) | | | > > | | | | > > | | | | > > | 18 +---+ 9 | > > | o | > > | +-------+ +-------+ | > > | | Fan | | Fan | | > > +----------------+-------+----+-------+----------------------------+ > > > > With above pin numbering, this is what I could find / measure / deduce: > > > > 3V3 brown 10 1 blue 12V > > 3V3 brown 11 2 black GND > > GND black 12 3 red 5V > > GND black 13 4 red 5V > > GND black 14 5 black GND > > 5V red 15 6 black GND > > 5V red 16 7 white -12V > > 5V red 17 8 blue (0.78V) > > (4.91V) lilac 18 9 brown (-1.65V) > > > > Most values look plausible, except those three in parentheses. At > > least one of them should probably be -9V wrt. GND I guess, but that's > > totally absent. And what's the other two? (If I got the colors wrong: > > Please forgive, I'm red-green blind.) That could be some "power-okay" > > indicator, or external switch-off? >=20 > I don't know this machine at all (too modern :-)) but that -9V sounds > at thought it might be for an internal ethernet transceiver. Now an > ethernet transceiver is supposed to be isolated from ground and one > way of helping with that is to have a totally isolated 9V output on > the power supply with its own 'ground', not connected to the ground > for the rest of the supplies. >=20 > Using a high impedence voltmeter like most DMMs, you'd see random > noise voltages on those 2 lines wrt the normal ground. >=20 > What voltage do you measure between the suspect blue and brown wires? > Connect your meter between them, not to the black ground and something > else. Did that any you're totally right here: Using pin 8 (blue) as GND, pin 9 (brown) becomes -9V. Just the lila wire remaining as a mystery. HOWEVER! A Polish friend suggested that even with all LEDs lit (which is as severe as it gets), it might just be a dead RTC chip. I dremel'd it open and soldered some wires, added a battery (not yet with a proper battery clip) and ... it started up. So I learned something about the PSU (--> most of its external pinout), the usage of -9V for ethernet (would never guessed that!) and that the stupid battery-backed RAM may completely kill a machine. Just added a PiSCSI, uploaded a NetBSD ISO image, configured a 2 GB HDD and fired up again: >>> sh conf KA49-A V1.0-006-V4.0 08-00-2B-35-5D-DF 128MB DEVNBR DEVNAM INFO ------ -------- -------------------------- 1 NVR ?? 001 0016 3 DZ OK 4 CACHE OK 5 MEM OK 128MB 0A,0B,0C,0D=3D16MB, 1E,1F,1G,1H=3D16MB=20 6 FPU OK 7 IT OK 8 SYS OK 9 NI OK 10 SCSI OK 1-RZ28M 3-SCSI 6-INITR =20 11 AUD OK >>> sh dev VMS/VMB ADDR DEVTYPE NUMBYTES RM/FX WP DEVNAM R= EV ------- ---- ------- -------- ----- -- ------ -= -- EZA0 08-00-2B-35-5D-DF DKA100 A/1/0 DISK 2.10GB FX RZ28M 0= 568 DKA300 A/3/0 RODISK 370.80MB RM WP SCSI 2= 304 ..HostID.. A/6 INITR Thanks for the help! MfG, JBG --=20 --===============2842810035937921647==-- From rickb@bensene.com Mon Jun 26 18:37:47 2023 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 18:37:39 +0000 Message-ID: <93D530611751954583A9D24BAB33467029430A1E@mail2.bensene.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7563172543323948810==" --===============7563172543323948810== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony D. wrote: > I may be talking nonsense, but you describe the Tektronix 4054 as a 6800-ba= sed system. I=20 > thought the 4051 used that processor, but the 4052 and 4054 used a board of= AM2900-series > bitslice chips that implement a processor with an instruction set similar t= o the 6800 > but with no BCD operations and some 16 bit extensions. No nonsense at all, Tony. You are correct. The architecture of the 4052 and= 4054 were definitely bitslice microcoded implementations of the 6800 CPU, wi= th the omissions and additions as you mentioned. The memory architecture of these computers was also heavily modified to allow= bank switching of RAM and ROM programmatically to create an address space th= at provided more memory capacity than the 64K address space of the 6800 used = in the 4051. =20 The display subsystem was also modified to allow additions of graphics co-pro= cessors for doing things like display list processing and refresh vector grap= hics which were drawn at a lower intensity so that the vectors would not be s= tored on the screen. Later, a special CRT was made for the 4054 that had a= unique storage CRT that had two layers, a green layer and a yellow/orange la= yer of phosphor that could be triggered by different beam intensities, both i= n storage and "write-through" mode that allowed three-color (yellow/orange, g= reen, and a mix of the two IIRC), refreshed vector graphics at up to 1000 vec= tors per second. Still, it was just fast enough for simple animated graphi= cs for things like games and graphical editors that would use refresh graphic= s for placing an object, then writing it in storage mode once it was placed. The special three-color tube was not available in the 4052, only the 4054, bu= t the add-on boards for providing the vector write-thru display were compatib= le with the 4052. The microcoded CPU and improved memory architecture of the 4052/4054 made the= machines significantly faster at compute-bound tasks. I/O and display were = not sped up much by the new architecture, as the speed at which vectors and t= ext could be written to the storage tube display was limited by the tube itse= lf, so graphics intensive stuff wasn't all that much faster than the 4051. = If the graphics involved computing the vectors in real-time, that type of gra= phics would be faster on the 4052/4054 due to the significantly faster comput= ing speed of the 2901-based 6800 "clone/extension". Things like GPIB I/O we= re more limited by the peripheral devices than the CPU itself, so things like= I/O to the GPIB 4907 8" floppy disc drives, wasn't all that much faster. I have a 4051 and a 4052A, both working. Comparing them side-to-side doing = compute bound things (like finding prime numbers) clearly shows the speed adv= antage of the bit-slice architecture in the 4052. Drawing "canned" graphics= is slightly faster on the 4052 simply because the interpretation of the BASI= C code that does the drawing runs significantly faster, which does make a sma= ll, but noticeable difference in the time it takes to render an image, with t= he 4052A finishing any given drawing a bit sooner than the 4051. Floppy dis= c access on the 4907 doesn't seem to be much faster other than the faster spe= ed of interpretation of the BASIC program, with the actual speed of reading/w= riting being about the same due mostly to the speed of GPIB transactions, and= the fixed rate that data is read/written to the floppy. The 4050-series computers were quite amazing for their time. Nothing else ex= cept hugely expensive graphics systems that ran on minicomputers, such as tho= se made by Evans & Sutherland and others, could exceed the capabilities of th= e 4050-series machines (especially the 4052 and 4054), and the 4050-series ma= chines fit on a desktop and were (other than being rather heavy) relatively p= ortable, very easy to use/program, and cost dramatically less than anything e= lse. =20 DVST was a great technology at a time when large amounts of high-speed random= access memory was very expensive. Magnetic core that was fast enough was q= uite expensive and complex, and IC-based RAM was just beginning to have reaso= nable capacity, but still ran somewhat slowly, and was also initially quite e= xpensive. As the price of fast, high-capacity IC-based RAM came down, rast= er type display systems with bitmapped display memory, and even dedicated bli= tter hardware for shifting bits around in display memory, made cost-effective= machines with at least equivalent (monochrome) display capability in terms o= f resolution, along with everything (including characters) being refreshed gr= aphics straight out of the framebuffer RAM. Once that occurred, the market = for DVST shrunk quite dramatically. Desktop workstations (like Sun, Apollo, = Perq, etc.) with graphics capabilities that met or exceeded those of the 4050= -series quickly took the place of these watershed machines. -Rick -- Rick Bensene, Curator The Old Calculator (and some computers, too) Museum Beavercreek, Oregon USA --===============7563172543323948810==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Mon Jun 26 20:25:51 2023 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 15:17:29 -0500 Message-ID: <573c0b98-6267-2f66-d15a-ad8447563825@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <2a796720-9ae1-900b-fbcd-9d20283db024@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2841345647422481995==" --===============2841345647422481995== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit   Some of the filenames  (eg ATOZ013.MSL)  suggest that the DEC product A-TO-Z might be involved. This was an RSX based product for small offices. -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)comcast.ne --===============2841345647422481995==-- From jbglaw@lug-owl.de Mon Jun 26 20:59:10 2023 From: Jan-Benedict Glaw To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: H7819-AA / VAXstation 4000/90 and 4000/96 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 22:58:59 +0200 Message-ID: <20230626205859.msn3xfotvioxhund@lug-owl.de> In-Reply-To: <20230626180608.semwwoln4ooslji7@lug-owl.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7714396325725723369==" --===============7714396325725723369== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! On Mon, 2023-06-26 20:06:08 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > Just added a PiSCSI, uploaded a NetBSD ISO image, configured a 2 GB > HDD and fired up again: >=20 >=20 > >>> sh conf >=20 > KA49-A V1.0-006-V4.0 > 08-00-2B-35-5D-DF > 128MB >=20 > DEVNBR DEVNAM INFO > ------ -------- -------------------------- > 1 NVR ?? 001 0016 > 3 DZ OK > 4 CACHE OK > 5 MEM OK > 128MB 0A,0B,0C,0D=3D16MB, 1E,1F,1G,1H=3D16MB=20 > 6 FPU OK > 7 IT OK > 8 SYS OK > 9 NI OK > 10 SCSI OK > 1-RZ28M 3-SCSI 6-INITR =20 > 11 AUD OK >=20 > >>> sh dev >=20 > VMS/VMB ADDR DEVTYPE NUMBYTES RM/FX WP DEVNAM = REV > ------- ---- ------- -------- ----- -- ------ = --- > EZA0 08-00-2B-35-5D-DF > DKA100 A/1/0 DISK 2.10GB FX RZ28M = 0568 > DKA300 A/3/0 RODISK 370.80MB RM WP SCSI = 2304 > ..HostID.. A/6 INITR Just for the record: I tried booting with "b dka3" and failed. However, writing the full device name as shown ("b dka300") works like a charm! So this 4000/90 (with its old V1.0 ROM) is now up'n'running with a patched DS1287 and a simulated disk. That setup should allow me to easily automate NetBSD testing and maybe do some first steps with VMS. (Any good introduction material? I've never used VMS.) MfG, JBG --=20 --===============7714396325725723369==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jun 26 20:59:36 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 13:59:26 -0700 Message-ID: <37b18940-5170-6f0b-a02d-69352a98b93d@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <573c0b98-6267-2f66-d15a-ad8447563825@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6377160487830083877==" --===============6377160487830083877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/26/23 13:17, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > =C2=A0 Some of the filenames=C2=A0 (eg ATOZ013.MSL)=C2=A0 suggest that the = DEC product > A-TO-Z might be involved. This was an RSX based product for small offices. As I mentioned, it fits perfectly. In particular when I look at the backup file, I run into this: > 0000b030 3b 00 30 31 30 31 44 55 30 3a 5b 41 54 4f 5a 4d |;.0101DU0:[ATO= ZM| > 0000b040 4f 44 5d 41 32 55 4d 41 49 4e 2e 4d 4e 55 20 20 |OD]A2UMAIN.MNU= | > 0000b050 20 20 20 20 4d 45 4e 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 | MEN = | > 0000b060 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 ff ff | .= ..| | ...| I did find a brief overall description of A2Z/A-to-Z here: > https://www.1000bit.it/js/web/viewer.html?file=3D%2Fad%2Fbro%2Fdigital%2Fde= c%2Dguide%2Da%2Dto%2Dz%2Epd --Chuck --===============6377160487830083877==-- From legalize@xmission.com Mon Jun 26 21:39:33 2023 From: Richard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 15:07:30 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6057722330284329057==" --===============6057722330284329057== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [private reply] In article you write: >On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 1:06 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: >> >> VCF SW was this past weekend near Dallas, Texas. >> >> Here are some highlights from my perspective. >> >> https://voidstar.blog/vcf-southwest-2023/ >> >> >> Most photos you can click to enlarge (Edge has bugs with WordPress, you >may >> need to scroll up/down a little bit to get the click thing working) > >I may be talking nonsense, but you describe the Tektronix 4054 as a >6800-based system. I thought the 4051 used that processor, but the >4052 and 4054 used a board of AM2900-series bitslice chips that >implement a processor with an instruction set similar to the 6800 but >with no BCD operations and some 16 bit extensions. My understanding is that it was a strict superset of 6800 with some unused opcodes implemented fo faster math instructions. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Terminals Wiki The Computer Graphics Museum Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) --===============6057722330284329057==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jun 26 22:49:12 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 18:49:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5EBA253C-F0FC-44B9-80A0-024BB39C468C@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3823408829402814673==" --===============3823408829402814673== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/26/2023 10:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to >>>> guess what >>>> >>>> application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. >>>> Does the >>>> >>>> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might h= ave >>>> >>>> created those files? >>> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. >>> >>> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. >> >> Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It consist= ed of a >> number of packages and was a complete business operations system. >> >> >> bill > On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a trimmed-down = variant of "ALL-IN-ONE". > The Software Sourcebook list only MicroRSX as the OS supporting the various pieces of A-to-Z.=C2=A0 There is no listing for anything called A2Z. bill --===============3823408829402814673==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Mon Jun 26 23:35:12 2023 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 23:35:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6253414113136013684==" --===============6253414113136013684== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, Thank You very much for taking the time to post your Mini-tour! I agree with the earlier poster, sure looks like a lot Of Cool stuff there at Southwest. Would have loved to have Seen that ADS-B "Radar" setup in person! I've never seen an HP-9830A that gorgeous, and with the Companion HP-9866A printer no less, wow! I had forgotten "END OF LINE" from Cylons in the Galactica Second series, but I always pretty much considered that they'd Copped it. The "END OF LINE" quote I remember best was issued By the Evil MCP Master Control Program in the original TRON, in 1982. My best memory is seeing it in a big theater, now gone, with A big crowd of fellow Nerds. The first time got quite a humorous=20 Response from the crowd... Thank You! Mark -----Original Message----- From: Steve Lewis via cctalk =20 Sent: Monday, June 26, 2023 5:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Steve Lewis Subject: [cctalk] VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights VCF SW was this past weekend near Dallas, Texas. Here are some highlights from my perspective. https://voidstar.blog/vcf-southwest-2023/ Most photos you can click to enlarge (Edge has bugs with WordPress, you may n= eed to scroll up/down a little bit to get the click thing working) Cheers, Steve --===============6253414113136013684==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Tue Jun 27 06:27:18 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 08:26:57 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580B0626E9024F2EAF13E0EED26A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3004760484754375709==" --===============3004760484754375709== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A-to-Z is listed in https://doc.lagout.org/science/0_Computer%20Science/0_Computer%20History/old-= hardware/dec/pdp11/catalogs/PDP_Systems_and_Options_Catalog_1988_Jul-Dec.pdf at several pdf pages, e.g. 54 & 412. It says: A-to-Z Base System The A-to-Z Base System is a user-installable, multiuser base system that sup- ports up to ten concurrent users on MicroPDP-11 and sixteen or more concur- rent users on MicroVAX. The A-to-Z Base System includes menu-driven system management functions as well as the ability to install Micro/RSX and/or MicroVAX applications. Inherent in the system are the menu manager and flow-control processor, which insulate the end user from the system-level inter- face without isolating the developer or system manager from the functions avail- able at the operating system level. The A-to-Z Base System for MicroPDP-11 includes the Micro/RSX operating system software, whereas the other A-to-Z Base Systems require the purchase of MicroVMS as prerequisite software. SPD 18.16 The latest version I know of is A-to-Z V2.2A from 1988. Ulli Am Di., 27. Juni 2023 um 00:49 Uhr schrieb Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > > On 6/26/2023 10:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >>> On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>>> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to > >>>> guess what > >>>> > >>>> application created those files is likely to be a study in > frustration. > >>>> Does the > >>>> > >>>> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that > might have > >>>> > >>>> created those files? > >>> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. > >>> > >>> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. > >> > >> Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It > consisted of a > >> number of packages and was a complete business operations system. > >> > >> > >> bill > > On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a > trimmed-down variant of "ALL-IN-ONE". > > > > The Software Sourcebook list only MicroRSX as the OS supporting the various > > pieces of A-to-Z. There is no listing for anything called A2Z. > > > bill > > > > --===============3004760484754375709==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Jun 27 11:31:30 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 07:31:21 -0400 Message-ID: <4b061ea3-5771-596b-784d-47329c6fd5fa@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8804352523980952095==" --===============8804352523980952095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like P/OS for the Professional. I've heard of All-in-One, but=20 didn't realize they built something that was as bad an annoying as P/OS.=20 I wonder if it included Prose as a word processor. Speaking of which, I wonder if those apps would run on a regular=20 pdp11/83 running RSX111M+. Maybe not the menu system, but the text/REGIS=20 apps like the editor and Pro/DATARIEVE should probably run. Hm. I'm currently thinking of ways to try and get true M+ to run on the Pro.=20 Console serial isn't an issue, there is a way to activate that on the=20 printer port. The trick is the drivers, and if it's possible to have the=20 POS drivers for the disk drive and floppy controller somehow load into a=20 genned M+ system via VMR and/or CON. But it would be interesting to get POS apps running on a real pdp11. If=20 they are user level it should not require a recompile. The real question=20 is Synergy window manager: Did it access video memory directly or did it=20 do the screen via REGIS drivers. I wonder because the video cards are=20 different between the Pro/350 and 380.... Chris On 6/27/2023 2:26 AM, Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk wrote: > A-to-Z is listed in > https://doc.lagout.org/science/0_Computer%20Science/0_Computer%20History/ol= d-hardware/dec/pdp11/catalogs/PDP_Systems_and_Options_Catalog_1988_Jul-Dec.pdf > at several pdf pages, e.g. 54 & 412. > > It says: > > A-to-Z Base System > > The A-to-Z Base System is a user-installable, multiuser base system that > sup- > ports up to ten concurrent users on MicroPDP-11 and sixteen or more concur- > rent users on MicroVAX. The A-to-Z Base System includes menu-driven system > management functions as well as the ability to install Micro/RSX and/or > MicroVAX applications. Inherent in the system are the menu manager and > flow-control processor, which insulate the end user from the system-level > inter- > face without isolating the developer or system manager from the functions > avail- > able at the operating system level. The A-to-Z Base System for MicroPDP-11 > includes the Micro/RSX operating system software, whereas the other A-to-Z > Base Systems require the purchase of MicroVMS as prerequisite software. > > SPD 18.16 > > The latest version I know of is A-to-Z V2.2A from 1988. > > Ulli > > > > Am Di., 27. Juni 2023 um 00:49 Uhr schrieb Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > >> On 6/26/2023 10:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to >>>>>> guess what >>>>>> >>>>>> application created those files is likely to be a study in >> frustration. >>>>>> Does the >>>>>> >>>>>> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that >> might have >>>>>> created those files? >>>>> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. >>>>> >>>>> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. >>>> Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It >> consisted of a >>>> number of packages and was a complete business operations system. >>>> >>>> >>>> bill >>> On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a >> trimmed-down variant of "ALL-IN-ONE". >> The Software Sourcebook list only MicroRSX as the OS supporting the various >> >> pieces of A-to-Z. There is no listing for anything called A2Z. >> >> >> bill >> >> >> >> --===============8804352523980952095==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jun 27 13:27:46 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 09:27:37 -0400 Message-ID: <4232CF27-9FF0-41A2-AA5B-3783D5BD4E34@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <4b061ea3-5771-596b-784d-47329c6fd5fa@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3247878589159696140==" --===============3247878589159696140== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:31 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Sounds like P/OS for the Professional. I've heard of All-in-One, but didn't= realize they built something that was as bad an annoying as P/OS. I wonder i= f it included Prose as a word processor. Different thing, I believe. Various projects get mixed up in my head, but here are some pieces as I remem= ber them. Corrections welcome because it's quite possible I slipped some bit= s. There's ALL-IN-ONE, a VMS based business software system. It included, I thi= nk, word processing and an email system, fancier than MAIL11 and not at all a= ppreciated by engineers but inflicted on DEC non-engineering personnel. There's A-to-Z, which aimed to be something similar but small enough to run o= n a PDP-11. ("A2Z" is not its official name but it isn't surprising to see t= hat appear as an internal marker in files.) I though there was a RSTS versio= n of it, I may be mistaken. Given that it ran on RSX it would not have been = a large stretch to build it on RSTS under its RSX runtime system. There was also at one time the "KO project", called that because it was appar= ently started under Ken Olsen's personal direction. That was a software proj= ect to build something similar. I don't think what it produced actually beca= me ALL-IN-ONE but maybe it was. Among other things, it involved the creation= of a new programming language called KOALA. That could run on both VMS and = PDP-11 systems, so the theory was that the KO project output could do so as w= ell. In practice that failed utterly because of the "virtual disease" -- tho= se applications ran fine on a VMS system with adequate memory, but on a PDP-1= 1 with 64 kB address space they would page like mad and performance was total= ly unacceptable. P/OS is none of these things and the stuff I described above is much newer (e= arly 1980s if I remember right -- certainly well after I started at DEC which= was 1978). paul --===============3247878589159696140==-- From jon@jonworld.com Tue Jun 27 14:42:19 2023 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM/RT help Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 15:42:02 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5793219639495477751==" --===============5793219639495477751== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey folks, Now that I'm done moving house I have time to wrench on the 6150. Before moving it worked; you'd power it on, the LCD status countdown would get to an OK value, but the CRT wasn't legible. I figured I'd be wrenching on the CRT. Instead, now when I power it on, it powers on for a second or two and then shuts off. I'm assuming this indicates a short or power-draw somewhere. I've reseated the CPU and RAM cards, the peripherals, and unplugged the hard drives (2x ESDI) and floppy in case they had a fault that was drawing too many amps and causing the power supply to shut-down. I noticed nothing on the CPU or RAM boards (exploded caps, etc.) What should I look at next? -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============5793219639495477751==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Jun 27 16:34:27 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM/RT help Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 11:34:21 -0500 Message-ID: <81fed593-83b8-69c3-99ee-541b6e2bd7d9@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0919424311771338261==" --===============0919424311771338261== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/27/23 09:42, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > Hey folks, > > Now that I'm done moving house I have time to wrench on the 6150. > Before moving it worked; you'd power it on, the LCD status countdown > would get to an OK value, but the CRT wasn't legible. I figured I'd be > wrenching on the CRT. > > Instead, now when I power it on, it powers on for a second or two and > then shuts off. I'm assuming this indicates a short or power-draw > somewhere. I've reseated the CPU and RAM cards, the peripherals, and > unplugged the hard drives (2x ESDI) and floppy in case they had a > fault that was drawing too many amps and causing the power supply to > shut-down. I noticed nothing on the CPU or RAM boards (exploded caps, > etc.) > > What should I look at next? > Well, if it has Tantalum caps, I'd suspect those. if there's just one card with Tantalum, pull it out and see if it stays powered on.  Then, you can try to determine which cap is bad.  It could also be a power supply issue.  Maybe a dummy load that lightly loads all the voltages would be good for testing. Jon --===============0919424311771338261==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 17:12:58 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM/RT help Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 13:12:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <81fed593-83b8-69c3-99ee-541b6e2bd7d9@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3124249907529822144==" --===============3124249907529822144== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jun 27, 2023, 12:34 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 6/27/23 09:42, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Hey folks, > > > > Now that I'm done moving house I have time to wrench on the 6150. > > Before moving it worked; you'd power it on, the LCD status countdown > > would get to an OK value, but the CRT wasn't legible. I figured I'd be > > wrenching on the CRT. > > > > Instead, now when I power it on, it powers on for a second or two and > > then shuts off. I'm assuming this indicates a short or power-draw > > somewhere. I've reseated the CPU and RAM cards, the peripherals, and > > unplugged the hard drives (2x ESDI) and floppy in case they had a > > fault that was drawing too many amps and causing the power supply to > > shut-down. I noticed nothing on the CPU or RAM boards (exploded caps, > > etc.) > > > > What should I look at next? > > > I would plug it in to the same place it was working to confirm a known-working supply source longer works. I'd this is not conveniently possible try a plug that has zero load on it. Eliminate the new variable (new socket in new location) before start changing caps like its a home.computer. the RT has a sophisticated power supply. There may be redundancy built in as well. Bill > --===============3124249907529822144==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Jun 27 20:17:33 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 16:17:26 -0400 Message-ID: <333c7627-44df-a1a2-788c-5a1c049f108b@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <4232CF27-9FF0-41A2-AA5B-3783D5BD4E34@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2060449144332927453==" --===============2060449144332927453== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Different thing, I believe. Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two=20 departments working on the same concept and coming up with completely=20 different, but equally oddball solutions. > There's A-to-Z, which aimed to be something similar but small enough to run= on a PDP-11. ("A2Z" is not its official name but it isn't surprising to see= that appear as an internal marker in files.) I though there was a RSTS vers= ion of it, I may be mistaken. Given that it ran on RSX it would not have bee= n a large stretch to build it on RSTS under its RSX runtime system. Yeah, I sort of remember this in the 80's. It was an attempt to break=20 into the office automation world where companies like Wang and that=20 weird word processing system were attempting to stave off PC's and=20 Netware/286. Didn't work well > P/OS is none of these things and the stuff I described above is much newer = (early 1980s if I remember right -- certainly well after I started at DEC whi= ch was 1978). The more I look at POS the more I realize it really could have been=20 good. With TMS at the front desk plus a shared 2400 baud modem plus=20 thinwire Ethernet, a small boot disk, one system with an RD53, and a=20 couple of LA50's and you would have a darn impressive office system. Too=20 bad the usual happened. But I am now curious to see if I can get the POS apps to run on M+. Why not. > paul > > --===============2060449144332927453==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Tue Jun 27 23:26:16 2023 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 00:26:09 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <333c7627-44df-a1a2-788c-5a1c049f108b@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4270388518381606970==" --===============4270388518381606970== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 27/06/2023 21:17, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Different thing, I believe. > > Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two > departments working on the same concept and coming up with completely > different, but equally oddball solution Like the VAX 6000 and the VAX 9000 :-) Having competing teams wasn't unusual in DEC, at least for a portion of its history. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============4270388518381606970==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Jun 28 00:11:54 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 20:11:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0160858879389044793==" --===============0160858879389044793== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/27/2023 7:26 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 27/06/2023 21:17, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> > Different thing, I believe. >> >> Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two >> departments working on the same concept and coming up with completely >> different, but equally oddball solution > > Like the VAX 6000 and the VAX 9000 :-) Having competing teams wasn't > unusual in DEC, at least for a portion of its history. > > Reading about the two different versions was interesting. The PDP-11 version comes complete with a version of Micro-RSX making it basically a turnkey system. More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes on RX02 and RL02 disks. I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks. bill --===============0160858879389044793==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 28 00:15:08 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 20:14:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4588725023850802049==" --===============4588725023850802049== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:26 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 27/06/2023 21:17, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> > Different thing, I believe. >>=20 >> Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two departments= working on the same concept and coming up with completely different, but equ= ally oddball solution >=20 > Like the VAX 6000 and the VAX 9000 :-) Having competing teams wasn't unusua= l in DEC, at least for a portion of its history. It was a long running operating principle of Ken Olsen, and one of the worst = management notions in the history of the world. He didn't just do it with in= dividual projects, though that's bad enough -- he had whole product family or= ganizations competing. A notorious example I know well was the network produ= cts group (building routers and bridges and terminal servers, out of Littleto= n) competing with the Loe End network products group (building smaller router= s and bridges and terminal servers, out of Maynard.=20 Once in a while there was some connection between the two, as in the DEChub f= amily which came out of LENAC (90 series) but evolved to include products fro= m NAC as well (900 series, like the DECbridge 900 FDD/Ethernet bridge I worke= d on. But the misguided notion that DEC had enough money to burn that it cou= ld build two product lines and cancel one of them, or have each take a fracti= on of the available market, surely is part of why DEC failed as a business in= the long run. paul --===============4588725023850802049==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jun 28 01:17:08 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Need AUI cable Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 21:16:59 -0400 Message-ID: <1d41ee9d-24a3-e54c-2fef-62bf8154f852@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0181469819543785023==" --===============0181469819543785023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone in MD got an AUI cable (few feet long) I can steal so I don't have to remove the bolts from the Pro/380's Ethernet socket or the pins on my 10bt ethernet MAU? Friendly note: If you try to boot a Pro/380 running POS 3.2 with Decnet installed and don't have the loopback plug the system will crash hard with a numeric error on the display. Noted. CZ --===============0181469819543785023==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Wed Jun 28 01:19:26 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 18:19:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1d41ee9d-24a3-e54c-2fef-62bf8154f852@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8121171498305461715==" --===============8121171498305461715== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Anyone in MD got an AUI cable (few feet long) I can steal so I don't have to > remove the bolts from the Pro/380's Ethernet socket or the pins on my 10bt > ethernet MAU? I just cheat and use a straight through DB-15 (waiting for someone to tell me it's a DQ-15 or something instead ;), like a PC joystick cable or some such. > Friendly note: If you try to boot a Pro/380 running POS 3.2 with Decnet > installed and don't have the loopback plug the system will crash hard with a > numeric error on the display. Noted. Duly noted for the one I have here, but it runs Venix/PRO. Gotta try 2.9BSD o= ne of these days. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT =3D=3D 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce --------= ------ --===============8121171498305461715==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jun 28 01:26:15 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 20:26:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55809E9EE8848A2039311BE1ED24A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7693460910330285310==" --===============7693460910330285310== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/27/23 19:11, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes on > RX02 and RL02 disks. > > I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL > disks. Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02, and VMS supported "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console computer so you could mount it just like any other device. Jon --===============7693460910330285310==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Jun 28 01:37:48 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 01:37:32 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1d41ee9d-24a3-e54c-2fef-62bf8154f852@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4742573446155241316==" --===============4742573446155241316== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These are my go-to for short ones: https://www.ebay.com/itm/233295839501 Not affiliated with seller, just a satisfied customer. Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, June 27th, 2023 at 21:16, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Anyone in MD got an AUI cable (few feet long) I can steal so I don't > have to remove the bolts from the Pro/380's Ethernet socket or the pins > on my 10bt ethernet MAU? >=20 > Friendly note: If you try to boot a Pro/380 running POS 3.2 with Decnet > installed and don't have the loopback plug the system will crash hard > with a numeric error on the display. Noted. >=20 > CZ --===============4742573446155241316==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 01:49:27 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 21:49:11 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55809E9EE8848A2039311BE1ED24A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6641341269875648550==" --===============6641341269875648550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit asOn Tue, 27 Jun 2023 at 20:11, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks. > > One of my father's fondest memories as a sysadmin for the radio astronomy folks at Bell Labs was replacing the VAX, I believe an 11/750, with Sun equipment. They had RL02 packs on that machine. -Henry --===============6641341269875648550==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jun 28 01:58:25 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 21:58:20 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7033915138368001481==" --===============7033915138368001481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02, and VMS supported > "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console computer so you could > mount it just like any other device. > I thought it was an RX01 on an 11/03? It's an RX02? CZ > Jon > --===============7033915138368001481==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 28 02:35:09 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 19:35:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2970375242210209980==" --===============2970375242210209980== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 27 Jun 2023, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> Anyone in MD got an AUI cable (few feet long) I can steal so I don't have = to >> remove the bolts from the Pro/380's Ethernet socket or the pins on my 10bt >> ethernet MAU? > > I just cheat and use a straight through DB-15 (waiting for someone to tell = me > it's a DQ-15 or something instead ;), like a PC joystick cable or some such. Since you asked for it, the PC joystick connector was a DA-15; the PC VGA connector was a DE-15. A DB-9 was a 25 pin connector (often serial), and often with pins 1-8 and=20 20. I don't know which pins would be present on a DB-15. --===============2970375242210209980==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 03:27:20 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 04:26:57 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1d41ee9d-24a3-e54c-2fef-62bf8154f852@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3122631436039938745==" --===============3122631436039938745== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 2:17 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone in MD got an AUI cable (few feet long) I can steal so I don't > have to remove the bolts from the Pro/380's Ethernet socket or the pins > on my 10bt ethernet MAU? For a few inches, which would be enough here I think, I've used an IDC DA15 plug and socket crimped onto the normal ribbon cable. Technically it's wrong but the reflections on that length of cable won't matter. -tony --===============3122631436039938745==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Wed Jun 28 04:58:08 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 23:52:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0336054237300863295==" --===============0336054237300863295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If we're being pedantic.... ;-) On 6/27/23 9:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Since you asked for it, the PC joystick connector was a DA-15; > the PC VGA connector was a DE-15. Wasn't PC VGA considered a /High/ /Density/ DE-15? > A DB-9 was a 25 pin connector (often serial), and often with pins 1-8 > and 20.  I don't know which pins would be present on a DB-15. I'm not tracking. How is a DB-9 (pin) *cough* DE-9 *cough* a 9-pin connector? How does that make it to the DB-25? Or are you meaning to say that many DB-25 pin serial ports were really wired up as if they were a 9-pin serial port, independent of the physical connector? DB-15??? Did you mean DA-15? I'll see myself out now. ;-) Grant. . . . --===============0336054237300863295==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Wed Jun 28 05:00:26 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 00:00:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9187430668455409537==" --===============9187430668455409537== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tony's email makes me ask more questions than I have (smart alack) answers to. Maybe ~> hopefully I can ~> will learn something. On 6/27/23 10:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > For a few inches, which would be enough here I think, I've used an IDC > DA15 plug and socket crimped onto the normal ribbon cable. Technically > it's wrong but the reflections on that length of cable won't matter. Isn't 10Base quite resilient? Especially at these distances? Though I don't know if AUI is considered 10Base in and of itself. Doesn't it become 10Base5 / 10Base2 / 10Base-T based on what transceiver is on the other side of / attached to the other end of the AUI cable? I'm assuming that MAU is meant for multiple stations to connect an AUI cable into and it then connects to the ostensibly 10Base network. -- I originally read and was replying as if Chris was trying to take the AUI port on his Pro/380 and connect it to an AUI port on a hub / switch. My concern being that both AUI ports would be the same gender and assuming that there are (at least) a pair of transceivers converting each device from AUI to 10Base to connect to each other. Grant. . . . --===============9187430668455409537==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Jun 28 05:13:00 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 20:44:28 -0400 Message-ID: <389cf6e3-6f1c-60ff-95c6-97b77c1658ce@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55809E9EE8848A2039311BE1ED24A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8234300923965396509==" --===============8234300923965396509== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes on RX02 and RL02 > disks. > > I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks. > Sure. The 8600 and 11/730 used an RL02 as the boot/startup media. RX02 is a bit odd, but I could see that being supported on a Unibus adapter which existed for the big systems and the BI systems. Maybe the 11/730 was the entry level All in One, at least before Microvax became popular CZ --===============8234300923965396509==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Jun 28 05:13:06 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Need AUI cable Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 21:16:33 -0400 Message-ID: <580bb621-3db2-142c-6d85-f96a575d9d54@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5023099094518661425==" --===============5023099094518661425== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone in MD got an AUI cable (few feet long) I can steal so I don't have to remove the bolts from the Pro/380's Ethernet socket or the pins on my 10bt ethernet MAU? Friendly note: If you try to boot a Pro/380 running POS 3.2 with Decnet installed and don't have the loopback plug the system will crash hard with a numeric error on the display. Noted. CZ --===============5023099094518661425==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 28 05:13:26 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 22:13:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8352865438635449038==" --===============8352865438635449038== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > If we're being pedantic.... ;-) >> Since you asked for it, the PC joystick connector was a DA-15; >> the PC VGA connector was a DE-15. On Tue, 27 Jun 2023, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Wasn't PC VGA considered a /High/ /Density/ DE-15? It is sometimes caalled that. >> A DB-9 was a 25 pin connector (often serial), and often with pins >> 1-8 and 20.  I don't know which pins would be present on a DB-15. > I'm not tracking. How is a DB-9 (pin) *cough* DE-9 *cough* a 9-pin > connector? How does that make it to the DB-25? > Or are you meaning to say that many DB-25 pin serial ports were really > wired up as if they were a 9-pin serial port, independent of the > physical connector? > DB-15??? Did you mean DA-15? > I'll see myself out now. ;-) With many boxes of used cables, often there will be cables that are DB-25, but with 16 pins missing in the 25 pin connector, often leaving pins 1-8 and 20, and gaps where other pins could have been.. I call THAT a DB-9 :-) Similarly, if a DB-25 has 10 pins missing from the 25 pin connector, then I call THAT a DB-15. DA, DC, DE connectors are a different size D shell than the DB, which is the one commonly used for a 25 pin cable. --===============8352865438635449038==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 28 12:19:27 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 08:18:57 -0400 Message-ID: <4D51711B-B594-42E4-9819-B0E21F9B3964@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4094628119930177455==" --===============4094628119930177455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 28, 2023, at 1:13 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > DA, DC, DE connectors are a different size D shell than the DB, which is th= e one commonly used for a 25 pin cable. There is also DD, though I've never seen one in the wild. DA is the shell fo= r AUI connectors, DC is used for RS-422 (37 pins) I think. All of these come in regular density and high density variations. For most o= f them, regular is 2 rows and HD is 3 -- so a VGA connector is a DE-15, high = density DE shell connector. But the DD regular density is 3 rows and the hig= h density is 4 rows. Meanwhile, on AUI cables: the difficulty with plugging a transceiver into the= Pro is that the Pro uses regular nuts, for a plug that secures by screws. T= hat's non-standard, since the AUI spec calls for the "turret" and sliding lat= ch type. So a standard AUI cable wouldn't be a real cure because you'd still= have that mismatch. A simple solution is an adapter. I bought one from L-com: https://www.l-com.= com/d-sub-aui-to-db15-adapter-male-female which says that it is "discontinued= " but also shows "available: 11" so perhaps you can still get one. Failing t= hat, an option would be to get a "socket saver" -- which is just a thin devic= e with a connector at each end, intended to save the device connectors from w= ear -- and remove the transceiver-side fastener so the transceiver can plug i= n. That second option doesn't give you a secure attachment but it's likely g= ood enough. paul --===============4094628119930177455==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 28 12:23:39 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 08:23:32 -0400 Message-ID: <2EB0D9E2-5A3F-4F3E-A6FD-5CD4BD09A533@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4673148124772739512==" --===============4673148124772739512== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 28, 2023, at 1:00 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Tony's email makes me ask more questions than I have (smart alack) answers = to. Maybe ~> hopefully I can ~> will learn something. >=20 > On 6/27/23 10:26=E2=80=AFPM, Tony Duell wrote: >> For a few inches, which would be enough here I think, I've used an IDC DA1= 5 plug and socket crimped onto the normal ribbon cable. Technically it's wron= g but the reflections on that length of cable won't matter. >=20 > Isn't 10Base quite resilient? Especially at these distances? Very definitely. The Ethernet spec gives a 50 meter limit for the AUI cable = length, and describes it as a controlled impedance cable with shielded twiste= d pairs. But I agree with Tony that for short lengths a plain ribbon cable w= ould do just fine. And "short" I would define as "electrically short" -- muc= h less than a wavelength, so one meter is likely still ok if you need that mu= ch. > Though I don't know if AUI is considered 10Base in and of itself.= Doesn't it become 10Base5 / 10Base2 / 10Base-T based on what transceiver is= on the other side of / attached to the other end of the AUI cable? Correct. The AUI cable is defined for 10 Mb/s Ethernet, and the transceiver = at the far end attaches it to 10Base5 or 2 or T or even "broad" (Ethernet ove= r cable TV). paul --===============4673148124772739512==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 12:31:49 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 08:31:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4D51711B-B594-42E4-9819-B0E21F9B3964@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6322281391644589922==" --===============6322281391644589922== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I probably have one here in Landenberg which is on the PA side of the MD/PA border if you can find no other sources. Not in front of me to verify, but I think I have three plastic bins of them along with related parts. Bill On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 8:19 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jun 28, 2023, at 1:13 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > DA, DC, DE connectors are a different size D shell than the DB, which is > the one commonly used for a 25 pin cable. > > There is also DD, though I've never seen one in the wild. DA is the shell > for AUI connectors, DC is used for RS-422 (37 pins) I think. > > All of these come in regular density and high density variations. For > most of them, regular is 2 rows and HD is 3 -- so a VGA connector is a > DE-15, high density DE shell connector. But the DD regular density is 3 > rows and the high density is 4 rows. > > Meanwhile, on AUI cables: the difficulty with plugging a transceiver into > the Pro is that the Pro uses regular nuts, for a plug that secures by > screws. That's non-standard, since the AUI spec calls for the "turret" and > sliding latch type. So a standard AUI cable wouldn't be a real cure > because you'd still have that mismatch. > > A simple solution is an adapter. I bought one from L-com: > https://www.l-com.com/d-sub-aui-to-db15-adapter-male-female which says > that it is "discontinued" but also shows "available: 11" so perhaps you can > still get one. Failing that, an option would be to get a "socket saver" -- > which is just a thin device with a connector at each end, intended to save > the device connectors from wear -- and remove the transceiver-side fastener > so the transceiver can plug in. That second option doesn't give you a > secure attachment but it's likely good enough. > > paul > > --===============6322281391644589922==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 13:27:18 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 14:27:00 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4D51711B-B594-42E4-9819-B0E21F9B3964@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0009796194491454525==" --===============0009796194491454525== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 1:19=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > On Jun 28, 2023, at 1:13 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > > DA, DC, DE connectors are a different size D shell than the DB, which is = the one commonly used for a 25 pin cable. > > There is also DD, though I've never seen one in the wild. DA is the shell = for AUI connectors, DC is used for RS-422 (37 pins) I think. The DD50 (standard density) has been used for SCSI-1 (maybe old Sun machines?) amongst other places. I've certainly used them. I did once fit an ST412 interface onto a DD50 socket. There's a total of 54 wires on the 34 pin control and 20 pin data cables of course but enough wires unused on the latter than you can get away with 50 pins. I've seen a DD78 on some HP device but I forget what. DC37 was used for RS449, PC external floppy drives,etc. DC62 was the connector for the IBM5161 expansion unit. There are DA26 and DB44 connectors but I don't think I've ever used them. FWIW I have seen Centronics parallel interfaces on DA15 connectors (there are enough pins for 8 data lines, strobe, busy, ground and a few other signals). There is NO standardisation, I've got a Tandata videotext terminal, a Philips videotext terminal and an HP2225P printer here and they don't even agree on the ground and data lines. -tony --===============0009796194491454525==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 13:29:35 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 14:29:18 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4537730674699740563==" --===============4537730674699740563== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 6:13 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > With many boxes of used cables, often there will be cables that are DB-25, > but with 16 pins missing in the 25 pin connector, often leaving pins 1-8 > and 20, and gaps where other pins could have been.. I call THAT a DB-9 > The DE9 serial port includes RingIndicator (pin 22 on the DB25 one) but not protective ground (pin 1 of the DB25). I've found a number of cables that therefore wire 10 pins -- 1-8,20,22. You can call that a DB10 if you like (I don't) -tony --===============4537730674699740563==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Jun 28 13:44:41 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 13:44:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8805552308131882679==" --===============8805552308131882679== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > For a few inches, which would be enough here I think, I've used an IDC > DA15 plug and socket crimped onto the normal ribbon cable. Technically > it's wrong but the reflections on that length of cable won't matter. That's how Sun VME Ethernet boards are set up, the board itself is way back n= ear the VME connectors and small (or a Multibus in a converter, and small). C= an't be too bad if Sun did it on serious business workstations, right?! Thanks, Jonathan --===============8805552308131882679==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Jun 28 13:46:03 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 13:45:41 +0000 Message-ID: <9Gw6HPVoRdvXu_sMeEZY7TSoTVA9Tei7ex_wodwxFeYpQjHREjyCfGozKdbxtYxemBonGXL766uD674eswvB8oPHiPZNQSnq8t6qVjeEFSw=@glitchwrks.com> In-Reply-To: <4D51711B-B594-42E4-9819-B0E21F9B3964@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5946903939677011868==" --===============5946903939677011868== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > There is also DD, though I've never seen one in the wild. Old SCSI uses DD-50. I've also seen it used on Pertec tape controllers and mu= ltiport serial cards. Thanks, Jonathan --===============5946903939677011868==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 13:48:26 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 14:48:06 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0491990060822742804==" --===============0491990060822742804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 6:00 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Tony's email makes me ask more questions than I have (smart alack) > answers to. Maybe ~> hopefully I can ~> will learn something. I was being a bit of a smart alec too. The point I was making is that a bit of normal IDC ribbon cable is not electrically the correct cable for an AUI interface but it won't matter over a few inches. The correct cable is 4 twisted pairs with a overall screen (shield). One pair is thicker wires than the other 3 and is used for the power. This cable was very hard to get by the metre when I needed some about 30 years ago, and a full reel was several hundred pounds. I was lucky enough to be given a couple of metres as an 'offcut' by a gentleman who worked in network support. You probably need something like that if you're makng a 1m cable. But not for what the OP is trying to do. > > On 6/27/23 10:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > For a few inches, which would be enough here I think, I've used an IDC > > DA15 plug and socket crimped onto the normal ribbon cable. Technically > > it's wrong but the reflections on that length of cable won't matter. > > Isn't 10Base quite resilient? Especially at these distances? There are 2 problems with the wrong cable. Firstly will it carry the current for the power supply pins? My experience is that it will, at least for most transceivers. The second is that the characteristic impedance is wrong. It's actually not too far off but... This will cause reflections. It won't matter on a few inches as the reflections will take about a nanosecond to get back and will die out in << the bit time. It may matter on longer cables. > > Though I don't know if AUI is considered 10Base in and of > itself. Doesn't it become 10Base5 / 10Base2 / 10Base-T based on what > transceiver is on the other side of / attached to the other end of the > AUI cable? AFAK AUI is not 10baseAnything for the reason you give > > I'm assuming that MAU is meant for multiple stations to connect an AUI MAU is something like 'media access unit' and is the official name for a transceiver. Due to the fact that there had to be a certain distance between transceivers on the cable, there were things that had multiple AUI connectors to link to computers (these were normally male DA15s on the unit, so a normal transceiver cable would work) and a further AUI connector (normally a female DA15) for a transceiver onto the 'real' ethernet. DEC's DELNI is a common-ish example of such a unit, I think the printset is on bitsavers > cable into and it then connects to the ostensibly 10Base > network. -- I originally read and was replying as if Chris was trying > to take the AUI port on his Pro/380 and connect it to an AUI port on a > hub / switch. My concern being that both AUI ports would be the same > gender and assuming that there are (at least) a pair of transceivers > converting each device from AUI to 10Base to connect to each > other. There is no real equivalent of an 'AUI null modem cable' (should that be 'null transceiver cable'?) If you want to link 2 computer-type ports together you need the equiavelent of 2 transceivers. Probably the easiest is a pair of 10baseT transceivers and a crossover 8p8c cable If you want to link 2 transceivers together on the AUI side then that's a network bridge. Even a basc one is quite a lot of electronics. If you want it to only pass on packets for particular machines then it gets very complicated, one that I picked up last year contains a 68020 CPU _and_ a board containing a 16 bit processor made from 2900-series bitslice stuff -tony --===============0491990060822742804==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 13:53:58 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 14:53:17 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CmIa1XohkdvtyAgQhbjreH34YcnusfaJd2lKZ1VCA7LY-DCPByz?= =?utf-8?q?Z=5FkEICcTKGg0NvUD3q2Ysw9sW5vRA46vHnIeZskzEdjBCTH3V6Bdq96ec=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4245855569830529630==" --===============4245855569830529630== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 2:44=E2=80=AFPM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > > For a few inches, which would be enough here I think, I've used an IDC > > DA15 plug and socket crimped onto the normal ribbon cable. Technically > > it's wrong but the reflections on that length of cable won't matter. > > That's how Sun VME Ethernet boards are set up, the board itself is way back= near the VME connectors and small (or a Multibus in a converter, and small).= Can't be too bad if Sun did it on serious business workstations, right?! > As a PERQ-fanatic, I'd better not give my prejudiced views on Sun :-) But seriously. Sun machines work on the ethernet just fine. So it shows you can break the rules a bit... -tony --===============4245855569830529630==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Jun 28 13:56:48 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 13:56:39 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4948798128148601598==" --===============4948798128148601598== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > There is no real equivalent of an 'AUI null modem cable' (should that > be 'null transceiver cable'?) >=20 > If you want to link 2 computer-type ports together you need the > equiavelent of 2 transceivers. This (or devices like it) is probably the only single-piece two station "null= modem adapter": https://i.imgur.com/qiMh9Tc.jpg It's a twin tap, with two AUI connectors. If you drop an intrusive BNC or N t= ap in there and terminate it, it'd act like a "null modem" for AUI. > If you want to link 2 transceivers together on the AUI side then > that's a network bridge. Even a basc one is quite a lot of > electronics. DEC's full wirespeed bridge was supposedly considered something of an enginee= ring miracle at the time and occupies 2U of rack space! Thanks, Jonathan --===============4948798128148601598==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jun 28 14:28:51 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 09:28:45 -0500 Message-ID: <614c38f1-047f-1eb6-082e-c6948ce0573d@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1307338613815648386==" --===============1307338613815648386== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/27/23 20:58, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02, and VMS >> supported "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console >> computer so you could mount it just like any other device. >> > I thought it was an RX01 on an 11/03? It's an RX02? Yup, I think you are right!  memory fades over 40 years! Jon --===============1307338613815648386==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 28 14:37:01 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:36:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBOC4nBXpgb=5FyErSgt2MEJNRk6OVkfTy9zhusthjehZnI8SYd?= =?utf-8?q?f439z7hnO26=5FoduttOZNX4FnRPbLdBrjGLMDamIHdFwEEKsWUYqZxkw6aIg=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7589944948903137864==" --===============7589944948903137864== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 28, 2023, at 9:56 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... >> If you want to link 2 transceivers together on the AUI side then >> that's a network bridge. Even a basc one is quite a lot of >> electronics. >=20 > DEC's full wirespeed bridge was supposedly considered something of an engin= eering miracle at the time and occupies 2U of rack space! 3U. But yes, it took some pretty good wizardry to run at that speed with the= machinery of the time, certainly at that cost. Along the same lines, design= ing the DECbridge-900 was quite an interesting exercise. While it doesn't ru= n quite at 6 x Ethernet wire speed, it does manage about 60k packets per seco= nd. More importantly, it includes algorithms to ensure that spanning tree pa= ckets are always handled even if the device is presented with an overload. Y= ou can see it in US patent 6,301,224. The DECbridge-900 achieved that perfor= mance with forwarding in software, in a Motorola 68040 at 25 MHz, with a litt= le help from a 64-entry CAM. For wiring two 10Mb Ethernet NICs together, a bridge will certainly serve, as= will a pair of transceivers. A repeater will also do the job. Or a DELNI, = which isn't technically a repeater; I don't think it is a device described by= the standard at all, just a piece of magic that interoperates with the stand= ard by suitable magic. paul --===============7589944948903137864==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Wed Jun 28 14:40:09 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:31:52 -0400 Message-ID: <0ee228e7-154f-fc89-014a-8f2e14bae8e6@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <580bb621-3db2-142c-6d85-f96a575d9d54@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7178821584034413771==" --===============7178821584034413771== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a real DEC AUI cable and live in MD.  I think it is 10 feet long. Doug On 6/27/2023 9:16 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Anyone in MD got an AUI cable (few feet long) I can steal so I don't > have to remove the bolts from the Pro/380's Ethernet socket or the > pins on my 10bt ethernet MAU? > > Friendly note: If you try to boot a Pro/380 running POS 3.2 with > Decnet installed and don't have the loopback plug the system will > crash hard with a numeric error on the display. Noted. > > CZ > --===============7178821584034413771==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 28 14:40:59 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:40:48 -0400 Message-ID: <526EB0C5-3E95-43E6-A49A-B12A7835BA4D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7137707204775243517==" --===============7137707204775243517== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 28, 2023, at 9:48 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 6:00=E2=80=AFAM Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: >>=20 >> Tony's email makes me ask more questions than I have (smart alack) >> answers to. Maybe ~> hopefully I can ~> will learn something. >=20 > I was being a bit of a smart alec too. The point I was making is that > a bit of normal IDC ribbon cable is not electrically the correct cable > for an AUI interface but it won't matter over a few inches. >=20 > The correct cable is 4 twisted pairs with a overall screen (shield). > One pair is thicker wires than the other 3 and is used for the power. > This cable was very hard to get by the metre when I needed some about > 30 years ago, and a full reel was several hundred pounds. I was lucky > enough to be given a couple of metres as an 'offcut' by a gentleman > who worked in network support. You probably need something like that > if you're makng a 1m cable. But not for what the OP is trying to do. Not for one meter. For 50 meters, sure, although a piece of Cat 5 Ethernet c= able for the signals along with a separate wire pair for power may well be an= entirely adequate substitute. The rule of thumb I would use is that any wro= ng-impedance connection shorter than a 5 percent or so of the wavelength isn'= t a problem. For 10 Mb/s Ethernet that translates to 1.5 to 2 meters. This is also why "UHF" connectors are acceptable at RF frequencies (but not a= t UHF frequencies, never mind what they call themselves). paul --===============7137707204775243517==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 28 14:44:11 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:44:01 -0400 Message-ID: <89492571-EFE3-403F-BF61-2355A1F47327@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <0ee228e7-154f-fc89-014a-8f2e14bae8e6@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4590036205495986694==" --===============4590036205495986694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keep in mind that a Pro does not accept a real AUI cable. It takes a cable w= ith an AUI connector (slide lock type) at the transceiver end, but a DA-15 co= nnector with the conventional screw fasteners as you'd find on a serial port = for the computer end. If you try a real AUI cable you're right back at the p= roblem Chris was trying to solve, which is that the connector has the posts f= or the slide lock, but the computer has the nuts for the screws, and the conn= ector can't mate because the two are in each other's way. aul > On Jun 28, 2023, at 10:31 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I have a real DEC AUI cable and live in MD. I think it is 10 feet long. > Doug >=20 > On 6/27/2023 9:16 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Anyone in MD got an AUI cable (few feet long) I can steal so I don't have = to remove the bolts from the Pro/380's Ethernet socket or the pins on my 10bt= ethernet MAU? >>=20 >> Friendly note: If you try to boot a Pro/380 running POS 3.2 with Decnet in= stalled and don't have the loopback plug the system will crash hard with a nu= meric error on the display. Noted. >>=20 >> CZ >>=20 >=20 --===============4590036205495986694==-- From pat@vax11.net Wed Jun 28 14:47:08 2023 From: Patrick Finnegan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:46:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <614c38f1-047f-1eb6-082e-c6948ce0573d@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4065355139079038391==" --===============4065355139079038391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 10:28=E2=80=AFAM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 6/27/23 20:58, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02, and VMS > >> supported "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console > >> computer so you could mount it just like any other device. > >> > > I thought it was an RX01 on an 11/03? It's an RX02? > > Yup, I think you are right! memory fades over 40 years! > Yes, it's an RX01. (I just booted one of mine last month). Pat --===============4065355139079038391==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jun 28 15:10:31 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:10:24 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <526EB0C5-3E95-43E6-A49A-B12A7835BA4D@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5445430706142787031==" --===============5445430706142787031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/28/23 09:40, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jun 28, 2023, at 9:48 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 6:00=E2=80=AFAM Grant Taylor via cctalk >> wrote: >>> Tony's email makes me ask more questions than I have (smart alack) >>> answers to. Maybe ~> hopefully I can ~> will learn something. >> I was being a bit of a smart alec too. The point I was making is that >> a bit of normal IDC ribbon cable is not electrically the correct cable >> for an AUI interface but it won't matter over a few inches. >> >> The correct cable is 4 twisted pairs with a overall screen (shield). >> One pair is thicker wires than the other 3 and is used for the power. >> This cable was very hard to get by the metre when I needed some about >> 30 years ago, and a full reel was several hundred pounds. I was lucky >> enough to be given a couple of metres as an 'offcut' by a gentleman >> who worked in network support. You probably need something like that >> if you're makng a 1m cable. But not for what the OP is trying to do. I did make up an AUI cable out of 4 separate shielded twisted-pair cables. J= ust tie-wrapped them together. Jon --===============5445430706142787031==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Jun 28 16:02:15 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 08:23:49 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4D51711B-B594-42E4-9819-B0E21F9B3964@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8814895751147092903==" --===============8814895751147092903== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Meanwhile, on AUI cables: the difficulty with plugging a transceiver into t= he Pro is that the Pro uses regular nuts, for a plug that secures by screws. = That's non-standard, since the AUI spec calls for the "turret" and sliding l= atch type. So a standard AUI cable wouldn't be a real cure because you'd sti= ll have that mismatch. Yup, it's a DEC thing, however the DEQNA cab kits do the proper cam and=20 lock interface. I thought about removing the nuts, but went with=20 ordering a cable and I'll pull the studs off it to make it work. Sub=20 optimal but that is DEC (also I remember AUI cables did come with screws=20 so other vendors did this in the early days as well) Ordered from Ebay, all well. Next step is to start figuring out how to=20 VMR the POS.SYS file and see how the drivers are in there. CZ > A simple solution is an adapter. I bought one from L-com: https://www.l-co= m.com/d-sub-aui-to-db15-adapter-male-female which says that it is "discontinu= ed" but also shows "available: 11" so perhaps you can still get one. Failing= that, an option would be to get a "socket saver" -- which is just a thin dev= ice with a connector at each end, intended to save the device connectors from= wear -- and remove the transceiver-side fastener so the transceiver can plug= in. That second option doesn't give you a secure attachment but it's likely= good enough. > > paul > --===============8814895751147092903==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 16:07:17 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:06:58 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7789692879932186170==" --===============7789692879932186170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 5:02 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Yup, it's a DEC thing, however the DEQNA cab kits do the proper cam and > lock interface. I thought about removing the nuts, but went with > ordering a cable and I'll pull the studs off it to make it work. Sub > optimal but that is DEC (also I remember AUI cables did come with screws > so other vendors did this in the early days as well) Classic PERQs certainly did (4-40 UNC jackposts and screws rather than the slidelock). That's one reason I had to make my own AUI cable. Of course a couple of weeks later I spotted a couple of cables with DA15 connectors being thrown out. I grabbed them, they turned out to be genuine ICL PERQ AUI cables... -tony --===============7789692879932186170==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 16:15:17 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:14:59 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB6267D8B223E9B82C94B9401FC926A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?6267=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1618102021193225215==" --===============1618102021193225215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 12:35 AM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote: > I've never seen an HP-9830A that gorgeous, and with the > Companion HP-9866A printer no less, wow! What I'd like to see is an HP9830 with the HP9880 disk system (an HP7900A drive with a special controller). Any still working? -tony --===============1618102021193225215==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 28 16:42:59 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 12:42:52 -0400 Message-ID: <9A8281E6-AF0B-4A0D-AD32-1B7C4C1706AA@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8557328640403390710==" --===============8557328640403390710== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 28, 2023, at 8:23 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> Meanwhile, on AUI cables: the difficulty with plugging a transceiver into = the Pro is that the Pro uses regular nuts, for a plug that secures by screws.= That's non-standard, since the AUI spec calls for the "turret" and sliding = latch type. So a standard AUI cable wouldn't be a real cure because you'd st= ill have that mismatch. >=20 > Yup, it's a DEC thing, however the DEQNA cab kits do the proper cam and loc= k interface. I thought about removing the nuts, but went with ordering a cabl= e and I'll pull the studs off it to make it work. Sub optimal but that is DEC= (also I remember AUI cables did come with screws so other vendors did this i= n the early days as well) Yes, DEC usually did things per the standard, which makes sense since after a= ll they wrote a lot of it, but the Pro (and apparently a few other devices) d= id it strangely. As for other vendors, I've heard that. The DEC case is so strange partly bec= ause of DEC's tradition of following standards, and partly from the fact that= with the Pro you have a cable with one standard and one non-standard connect= or. Did you look at the L-com adapter? That's the ideal answer, if you can still= get one. Or if some other vendor offers the same thing. I have one of thos= e on my Pro, along with a couple of "connector savers" to allow normal connec= tors to connect without bumping into the plastic shell of the Pro. paul --===============8557328640403390710==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Jun 28 17:10:14 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 13:10:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <389cf6e3-6f1c-60ff-95c6-97b77c1658ce@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2676251782936715318==" --===============2676251782936715318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/27/2023 8:44 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes on RX02 and >> RL02 disks. >> >> I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks. >> > Sure. The 8600 and 11/730 used an RL02 as the boot/startup media. Don't know the 8600.  Wasn't the RL02 on the 11/730 actually connected to a PDP-11 that functioned as a console?  Surely no version of VMS ever fit on a 10M disk, did it? > RX02 is a bit odd, but I could see that being supported on a Unibus > adapter which existed for the big systems and the BI systems. But the question would have been why?  :-) > > Maybe the 11/730 was the entry level All in One, at least before > Microvax became popular > > Maybe, but can you see a small office running an 11/730 just to get those particular apps?  :-) bill --===============2676251782936715318==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Jun 28 17:15:05 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 13:14:51 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2931000996609101904==" --===============2931000996609101904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/28/2023 8:23 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Meanwhile, on AUI cables: the difficulty with plugging a transceiver >> into the Pro is that the Pro uses regular nuts, for a plug that >> secures by screws.  That's non-standard, since the AUI spec calls for >> the "turret" and sliding latch type.  So a standard AUI cable >> wouldn't be a real cure because you'd still have that mismatch. > > Yup, it's a DEC thing, however the DEQNA cab kits do the proper cam > and lock interface. I thought about removing the nuts, but went with > ordering a cable and I'll pull the studs off it to make it work. Sub > optimal but that is DEC (also I remember AUI cables did come with > screws so other vendors did this in the early days as well) > Not necessarily a DEC thing.  TEMPEST PC's (and other TEMPEST boxes like fiber ethernet transceivers)  also had screw connectors rather than the spring clip ones. bill --===============2931000996609101904==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Wed Jun 28 18:14:16 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:14:10 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4D51711B-B594-42E4-9819-B0E21F9B3964@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7771547834176016929==" --===============7771547834176016929== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 50 pin DD connectors are alive and well on the backplanes of some day job ATR= s with new electronics in the old VME form factor. 3 x 16 STPs pass through = them very nicely en route to front panel connectors. Both dense, decently ro= bust and legacy compliant. More generally, if you have access to a Daniels AFM8 crimp tool and positione= r, the Harting crimp contact Dsubs are very good for odd jobs; e.g. https://= uk.rs-online.com/web/p/d-sub-connectors/1007759 The turned pin contacts are = much preferable to the bent tin ones e.g. https://www.peigenesis.com/en/shop/= part-information/M3902964369/TRI/EACH/301791.html Unfortunately, while the b= odies are inexpensive the pins and infrastructure are not. More positively, = the connectors don't noticeably degrade with rework. Martin -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 28 June 2023 13:19 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable > On Jun 28, 2023, at 1:13 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > DA, DC, DE connectors are a different size D shell than the DB, which is th= e one commonly used for a 25 pin cable. There is also DD, though I've never seen one in the wild. DA is the shell fo= r AUI connectors, DC is used for RS-422 (37 pins) I think. All of these come in regular density and high density variations. For most o= f them, regular is 2 rows and HD is 3 -- so a VGA connector is a DE-15, high = density DE shell connector. But the DD regular density is 3 rows and the hig= h density is 4 rows. Meanwhile, on AUI cables: the difficulty with plugging a transceiver into the= Pro is that the Pro uses regular nuts, for a plug that secures by screws. T= hat's non-standard, since the AUI spec calls for the "turret" and sliding lat= ch type. So a standard AUI cable wouldn't be a real cure because you'd still= have that mismatch. A simple solution is an adapter. I bought one from L-com: https://www.l-com.= com/d-sub-aui-to-db15-adapter-male-female which says that it is "discontinued= " but also shows "available: 11" so perhaps you can still get one. Failing t= hat, an option would be to get a "socket saver" -- which is just a thin devic= e with a connector at each end, intended to save the device connectors from w= ear -- and remove the transceiver-side fastener so the transceiver can plug i= n. That second option doesn't give you a secure attachment but it's likely g= ood enough. paul --===============7771547834176016929==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Jun 28 18:20:40 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:20:08 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580EBEA318F1EB0747D9FD6ED24A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1605755160844584597==" --===============1605755160844584597== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Not necessarily a DEC thing. TEMPEST PC's (and other TEMPEST boxes like > fiber >=20 > ethernet transceivers) also had screw connectors rather than the spring > clip ones. It's semi-common on random old stuff, yeah. I've got a Cisco IGS that uses ja= ckscrews, and have had a pretty good number of ISA Ethernet boards that use e= ither jackscrews in the usual D-SUB location, or the really wide-set ones tha= t like two transceivers fit. For the Cisco IGS, there's a part # for an adapter cable with jackscrews on t= he router end and slide latches on the transceiver end, but they rarely show = up. I have one or two for it, but have not found more. Protip: Ungermann-Bass made jackscrew transceivers both ways (wide and standa= rd) and they're usually cheap. Thanks, Jonathan --===============1605755160844584597==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Wed Jun 28 19:59:39 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 14:59:33 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3048488280115318988==" --===============3048488280115318988== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/28/23 8:48 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > I was being a bit of a smart alec too. I'm glad that I was / you were / we are as I think this is shaping up to be another very interesting thread where I learn a lot of minutia that I wouldn't otherwise learn. #todayIlearned :-D --===============3048488280115318988==-- From gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net Wed Jun 28 20:09:40 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 15:09:33 -0500 Message-ID: <78036595-9651-68a4-1e2b-a8b18bfaa408@tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6415896177966287303==" --===============6415896177966287303== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/28/23 12:13 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > It is sometimes caalled that. ;-) > With many boxes of used cables, often there will be cables that are > DB-25, but with 16 pins missing in the 25 pin connector, often leaving > pins 1-8 and 20, and gaps where other pins could have been..  I call > THAT a DB-9 :-) Similarly, if a DB-25 has 10 pins missing from the 25 > pin connector, then I call THAT a DB-15. That's ... different than I would have expected. I can see the logic. But I don't think I would have gotten there on my own without seeing / reading examples. > DA, DC, DE connectors are a different size D shell than the DB, which is > the one commonly used for a 25 pin cable. ACK --===============6415896177966287303==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jun 28 21:21:37 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Found the DSM orange manual Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:21:29 -0400 Message-ID: <40dde144-9a85-6919-7f37-fa771c638898@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0966416833239143251==" --===============0966416833239143251== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While looking for my RSX11 DECNET manual (because the online version doesn't have any examples of commands which is why you look in the manual in the first place) I found a copy of the DSM binder AA-K676B-TK and ilk. Is this online or does anyone else have it? CZ --===============0966416833239143251==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jun 28 21:30:11 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:29:59 -0400 Message-ID: <120E57BD-A4B3-4D17-824E-AE6C34335376@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <40dde144-9a85-6919-7f37-fa771c638898@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1641128107340194605==" --===============1641128107340194605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 28, 2023, at 5:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > While looking for my RSX11 DECNET manual (because the online version doesn'= t have any examples of commands which is why you look in the manual in the fi= rst place) I found a copy of the DSM binder AA-K676B-TK and ilk. >=20 > Is this online or does anyone else have it? It sure doesn't seem to be on-line. In fact, Googling that document number p= roduces exactly one hit (another DEC document which mentions this document in= the text). Getting that scanned would be neat. paul --===============1641128107340194605==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jun 28 21:37:41 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:37:34 -0400 Message-ID: <7dee1be3-d657-4dc3-a46c-c19637301587@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <120E57BD-A4B3-4D17-824E-AE6C34335376@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0084885063802979727==" --===============0084885063802979727== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, it's huge. As in totally fills a large DEC binder. Seems to have=20 the following: Introduction to DSM Language reference User's Guide XDT reference Release Notes Would go well with that copy of DSM I have imaged on an RD52 drive. So does anyone in MD have access to a faster scanner than mine (Pixma 870)? CZ On 6/28/2023 5:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jun 28, 2023, at 5:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> While looking for my RSX11 DECNET manual (because the online version doesn= 't have any examples of commands which is why you look in the manual in the f= irst place) I found a copy of the DSM binder AA-K676B-TK and ilk. >> >> Is this online or does anyone else have it? > It sure doesn't seem to be on-line. In fact, Googling that document number= produces exactly one hit (another DEC document which mentions this document = in the text). Getting that scanned would be neat. > > paul --===============0084885063802979727==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jun 28 22:22:24 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 15:22:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7dee1be3-d657-4dc3-a46c-c19637301587@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5420489073993901299==" --===============5420489073993901299== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If a few of us were to chip in very small donations, what would it cost to=20 have a commercial scanning service company, with high speed auto-feed=20 scanners, scan it? I admit that I had to GOOGLE what DSM stood for. At the risk of offending many others, I would think that documentation for=20 the 5150 could be called "DSM-IV" On Wed, 28 Jun 2023, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Well, it's huge. As in totally fills a large DEC binder. Seems to have the = > following: > > Introduction to DSM > > Language reference > > User's Guide > > XDT reference > > Release Notes > > Would go well with that copy of DSM I have imaged on an RD52 drive. > > So does anyone in MD have access to a faster scanner than mine (Pixma 870)? > > CZ > > On 6/28/2023 5:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>=20 >>> On Jun 28, 2023, at 5:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk =20 >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> While looking for my RSX11 DECNET manual (because the online version=20 >>> doesn't have any examples of commands which is why you look in the manual= =20 >>> in the first place) I found a copy of the DSM binder AA-K676B-TK and ilk. >>>=20 >>> Is this online or does anyone else have it? >> It sure doesn't seem to be on-line. In fact, Googling that document numbe= r=20 >> produces exactly one hit (another DEC document which mentions this documen= t=20 >> in the text). Getting that scanned would be neat. >> >> paul --===============5420489073993901299==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jun 29 00:18:01 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:17:55 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7485137223640304417==" --===============7485137223640304417== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At the risk of offending many others, I would think that documentation for > the 5150 could be called "DSM-IV" For those who need explanation of my inept attempts at humour, . . . (I probably shouldn't even try) DSM-IV is "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual" for mental disorders, and is the primary reference in most libraries on such (yes, I was a librarian for a while). 5150 is current slang, and the California code, for involuntary psychiatric committment of those who are a danger to themselves or others. Some feel that that was a coincidentally excellent name for IBM's entry into the personal computer market. --===============7485137223640304417==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jun 29 01:23:43 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:23:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <005e01d9aa27$49854ee0$dc8feca0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0411093606171486880==" --===============0411093606171486880== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> DSM-IV is "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual" for mental disorders, >> and is On Wed, 28 Jun 2023, Ali wrote: > Fred, > You are showing your age ;). The DSM-V has been out for a while now and the > first revision (DSM V-TR TR=Text Revision, gotta love the Psych guys...) is > coming out (is out?) soon My age is getting quite difficult to hide. The "new" (now 10? years old) edition (DSM-V) is not without controversy, such as grief/depression; there are actually some who still prefer to use the DSM-IV. When we put the DSM-V on the shelf in Reference, we had some patrons asking us to bring back the DSM-IV. But yes, my joke should probably have been worded DSM-V --===============0411093606171486880==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 02:43:51 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 22:43:33 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6736611549998901717==" --===============6736611549998901717== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone have the 2716 ePROM listing for IMSAI Basic. Version 1.4 or whatever. I once had it, can't find my copy. If not 2716, I'll take any listing that I can convert somehow. Thanks Bill --===============6736611549998901717==-- From shumaker@att.net Thu Jun 29 02:51:51 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 19:51:42 -0700 Message-ID: <78b12ae8-2b6e-ad36-82fe-c2cfd0e14231@att.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0223534279830593363==" --===============0223534279830593363== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That would be the Imsai 8K BASIC?  If so, I have the assembler listing as part of the Imsai manual set. Steve On 6/28/23 7:43 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Anyone have the 2716 ePROM listing for IMSAI Basic. Version 1.4 or > whatever. I once had it, can't find my copy. If not 2716, I'll take any > listing that I can convert somehow. > Thanks > Bill --===============0223534279830593363==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 03:01:05 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 23:00:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <78b12ae8-2b6e-ad36-82fe-c2cfd0e14231@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6468871450164384638==" --===============6468871450164384638== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve I was looking for the original prom listing format files. Not sure if theyre 1702 2708 2716 or ?? On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 10:51 PM steve shumaker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > That would be the Imsai 8K BASIC? If so, I have the assembler listing > as part of the Imsai manual set. > > Steve > > On 6/28/23 7:43 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone have the 2716 ePROM listing for IMSAI Basic. Version 1.4 or > > whatever. I once had it, can't find my copy. If not 2716, I'll take any > > listing that I can convert somehow. > > Thanks > > Bill > > --===============6468871450164384638==-- From doug@doughq.com Thu Jun 29 03:04:45 2023 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 12:56:54 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <78b12ae8-2b6e-ad36-82fe-c2cfd0e14231@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8439662206122767526==" --===============8439662206122767526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wait !! - there was BASIC in ROM for the IMSAI? How was the memory laid out? What I/O devices did it expect? Does it run with a Z80 CPU, or only the 8080? Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 at 12:51, steve shumaker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > That would be the Imsai 8K BASIC? If so, I have the assembler listing > as part of the Imsai manual set. > > Steve > > On 6/28/23 7:43 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone have the 2716 ePROM listing for IMSAI Basic. Version 1.4 or > > whatever. I once had it, can't find my copy. If not 2716, I'll take any > > listing that I can convert somehow. > > Thanks > > Bill > > --===============8439662206122767526==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 03:54:39 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 20:54:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7085592902784051072==" --===============7085592902784051072== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:01 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Steve > I was looking for the original prom listing format files. Not sure if > theyre 1702 2708 2716 or ?? This IMSAI 8K BASIC Version 1.4 manual says 32 chips in two IMSAI PROM 4 boards. That would be 32 256-byte 1702 EPROMs. One board starting at address 0, the second board starting at address 4KB, and RAM starting at address 8KB. https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/imsai/imsai_8k_basic.pdf --===============7085592902784051072==-- From shumaker@att.net Thu Jun 29 03:54:43 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 20:54:36 -0700 Message-ID: <85aab57b-b96a-6e07-b17a-cdb7294c1293@att.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2380892006398043138==" --===============2380892006398043138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry then,  This is the assembly source listing. Steve On 6/28/23 8:00 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Steve > I was looking for the original prom listing format files. Not sure if > theyre 1702 2708 2716 or ?? > > On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 10:51 PM steve shumaker via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> That would be the Imsai 8K BASIC? If so, I have the assembler listing >> as part of the Imsai manual set. >> >> Steve >> >> On 6/28/23 7:43 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> Anyone have the 2716 ePROM listing for IMSAI Basic. Version 1.4 or >>> whatever. I once had it, can't find my copy. If not 2716, I'll take any >>> listing that I can convert somehow. >>> Thanks >>> Bill >> --===============2380892006398043138==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Thu Jun 29 05:50:09 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 00:50:02 -0500 Message-ID: <5bd42061-5740-799d-c077-4a40e4eaae84@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7280975907098295624==" --===============7280975907098295624== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/28/23 21:43, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Anyone have the 2716 ePROM listing for IMSAI Basic. Version 1.4 or > whatever. I once had it, can't find my copy. If not 2716, I'll take any > listing that I can convert somehow. > Thanks > Bill Possibly the Prom-4 board with 1702s.  As mentioned 2 boards = 8k. Each chip is 256 bytes, possibly harvest the code from the listing? I'm sure Bill is looking for someone with the image, or the chip masters. I looked @ the listing provided, it's assembled for org 0x00. There's a different org for CPM.  So you can't use the CPM binary in rom unless you put a rom at 0 to jump to the CPM binary, and I'm guessing it has conditional assembly for the serial drivers. http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/IMSAI/PROM/PROM-4.htm Will be interesting to archive if someone comes up with it.  Wonder if anyone with the basics for the clone boards may have a basic which could be used that runs on such as the Altair or Imsai clone? I know the Altair clone has a number of alternative boot images you can select from, could swear one is Basic, but don't have the documents handy here. thanks Jim --===============7280975907098295624==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Thu Jun 29 06:10:32 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:42:45 -0400 Message-ID: <4aca4924-1156-2841-db8d-3192ae0988ab@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580430BADBE1F7B19DF3DB2ED24A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8987831530728724130==" --===============8987831530728724130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Don't know the 8600.  Wasn't the RL02 on the 11/730 actually connected > to a PDP-11 > > that functioned as a console?  Surely no version of VMS ever fit on a > 10M disk, did it? > Nope, there was a big "multifunction" card that ran the RM80 and RL02 drive. I think it bypassed the Unibus for data which is what allowed the R80 to run on such a weird little system. I don't know if it could handle more than one RL02, but the R80 used a personality module that was basically SMD with the stupid DEC twist and was the same module that worked on the RM80 (which I still have here, should dig it out and fire it up. Worked a decade ago...) > But the question would have been why?  :-) >Maybe, but can you see a small office running an 11/730 just to get those particular Sure, the 11/730 was marketed as an office system, in a cool little cabinet with the R80 on the bottom, CPU, and a little top loading RL02. Perfect for the 1980's office. Well until Microvax. CZ --===============8987831530728724130==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 06:19:21 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 23:19:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1535167678925975670==" --===============1535167678925975670== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 7:43 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone have the 2716 ePROM listing for IMSAI Basic. Version 1.4 or > whatever. I once had it, can't find my copy. If not 2716, I'll take any > listing that I can convert somehow. > Thanks > Bill Here's a machine readable version of the 8KB Version 1.4 source code, and a hex file of an assembled version of that code: http://cini.classiccmp.org/zips/IMSAI%20BASICs.zip --===============1535167678925975670==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jun 29 07:52:17 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 09:52:06 +0200 Message-ID: <98a0b4a0-d1d-d563-dc8b-33e0614922@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB6267D8B223E9B82C94B9401FC926A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?6267=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2151306939218721984==" --===============2151306939218721984== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 26 Jun 2023, Mark Huffstutter wrote: > I've never seen an HP-9830A that gorgeous, and with the > Companion HP-9866A printer no less, wow! That setup was quite usual I think. We also have the 8" disk station from Infotek (alas, the interface module has been lost, I can't find it). It is stacked on top of the 9830 and below the printer. We also have several peripherals, like HP the papertape reader, plotter, serial I/O and external cassette unit. Christian --===============2151306939218721984==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jun 29 07:58:54 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 09:58:46 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580430BADBE1F7B19DF3DB2ED24A=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8595043739004088109==" --===============8595043739004088109== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 28 Jun 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Don't know the 8600.  Wasn't the RL02 on the 11/730 actually connected > to a PDP-11 that functioned as a console?  Surely no version of VMS ever > fit on a 10M disk, did it? The 730 does not have a PDP-11 as frontend. It uses the RB730 integrated disk controller with attachments for the RL02 and R80 drives. The R80 provides 120MB of storage, enough for a small VMS installation. And as it's a Unibus machine, you can add more peripherals. Christian --===============8595043739004088109==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 12:36:42 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 08:36:24 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4443722113784914874==" --===============4443722113784914874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's in the Imsai Basic manual as a choice for loading g the software. I had the ROM set (8 proms) but I must have overwritten them a long time ago. So, I wanted to make a new set, hoping someone had the eprom files avail so I could make. If not I will build a new setsome.other way. Does anyone have the papertape image of IMSAI basic 1.3 or 1.4? Bill On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 11:04 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Wait !! - there was BASIC in ROM for the IMSAI? > > How was the memory laid out? What I/O devices did it expect? > > Does it run with a Z80 CPU, or only the 8080? > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug(a)doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 at 12:51, steve shumaker via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > That would be the Imsai 8K BASIC? If so, I have the assembler listing > > as part of the Imsai manual set. > > > > Steve > > > > On 6/28/23 7:43 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > Anyone have the 2716 ePROM listing for IMSAI Basic. Version 1.4 or > > > whatever. I once had it, can't find my copy. If not 2716, I'll take > any > > > listing that I can convert somehow. > > > Thanks > > > Bill > > > > > --===============4443722113784914874==-- From wdonzelli@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 13:23:39 2023 From: William Donzelli To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] HP2100A available Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 09:23:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8620873059908858346==" --===============8620873059908858346== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is on Discord. I have an HP 2100A with a paper tape punch (a HP labelled Facit), tape punch (HP), and an 7900A disc. The thing is in decent shape - full of cards. The keyswitch is out of the thing, but I am pretty sure I still have it. Right now, I have me hands on the 2100A and Facit paper tape punch (with bracket) - can I get $1000 for this combo? When I get my hands on the reader and 7900A ( I think they are just buried!), we can deal with them later, as I do not like to sell what my hands are not on. Located around Kingston NY. Oh, I have a 5 foot rack for this thing, still back at the old house. -- Will --===============8620873059908858346==-- From wdonzelli@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 13:49:05 2023 From: William Donzelli To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP2100A available Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 09:48:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0395133353809343770==" --===============0395133353809343770== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This has sold! -- Will On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 9:23=E2=80=AFAM William Donzelli wrote: > > This is on Discord. > > I have an HP 2100A with a paper tape punch (a HP labelled Facit), tape > punch (HP), and an 7900A disc. The thing is in decent shape - full of > cards. The keyswitch is out of the thing, but I am pretty sure I still > have it. > > Right now, I have me hands on the 2100A and Facit paper tape punch > (with bracket) - can I get $1000 for this combo? When I get my hands > on the reader and 7900A ( I think they are just buried!), we can deal > with them later, as I do not like to sell what my hands are not on. > Located around Kingston NY. > > Oh, I have a 5 foot rack for this thing, still back at the old house. > > -- > Will --===============0395133353809343770==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Thu Jun 29 21:19:25 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 22:19:18 +0100 Message-ID: <017d01d9aacf$5d785660$18690320$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <00e801d9a787$6b867de0$429379a0$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4846181132732000254==" --===============4846181132732000254== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you to everyone who helped me with this. The PSU if finally fixed. I ha= ve posted about it on my blog: https://robs-old-computers.com/2023/06/29/h784= 2-finally-fixed/ Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt > Sent: 25 June 2023 18:07 > To: 'Tony Duell' ; rob(a)jarratt.me.uk > Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > ; 'Brent Hilpert' > Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tony Duell > > Sent: 25 June 2023 18:00 > > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk > > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > ; Brent Hilpert > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 5:52=E2=80=AFPM Rob Jarratt > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Before I confuse matters too much I should point out that I was not > > > using > > the Rainbow power switch unit but one from a DECmate. I had > > erroneously thought there was a fault with the Rainbow one. I think > > the fan supply may be different on the DECmate switch, so ignore the bit > about the fan turning. > > > > It appears that there are 2 ways of powering (different types of) fans > > with this power supply. Whether one was used in the Rainbow and the > > other in the Decmate I know not. But anyway : > > > > A 12V DC fan running off the DC output of the power supply. This is > > the one shown in my schemtic for the supply. Note the jumper link in > > the fan power plug that means the supply doesn't get mains if you forget = to > plug the fan in. >=20 > That is what I failed to notice and I thought that somehow there was a faul= t in > the switch unit. >=20 > > > > A 115V AC fan connected to the unused pair of pins on the AC input > > cable to the power supply (top right of the 'switch/fan assy' in my > > schematc. This uses the primary winding of the startup transformer as > > an autotransformer on 230V mains. > > > > Note that the latter fan will run if the chopper side of things is > > dead, the former won't. > > > > -tony --===============4846181132732000254==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Fri Jun 30 00:48:04 2023 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 00:47:55 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <98a0b4a0-d1d-d563-dc8b-33e0614922@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8246060424422189575==" --===============8246060424422189575== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow......!! Very nice collection there, Christian! Mark -----Original Message----- From: Christian Corti via cctalk =20 Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 12:52 AM To: Mark Huffstutter via cctalk Cc: Christian Corti Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Southwest 2023 some highlights On Mon, 26 Jun 2023, Mark Huffstutter wrote: > I've never seen an HP-9830A that gorgeous, and with the Companion=20 > HP-9866A printer no less, wow! That setup was quite usual I think. We also have the 8" disk station from Inf= otek (alas, the interface module has been lost, I can't find it). It is stack= ed on top of the 9830 and below the printer. We also have several peripherals, like HP the papertape reader, plotter, seri= al I/O and external cassette unit. Christian --===============8246060424422189575==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 02:39:54 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 22:39:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4761972717055374031==" --===============4761972717055374031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So I was able to get the listing for the PROMs by using the HEX file of IMSAI BASIC 1.4 from.Rich Cini's website. I was able to then pull the Intel papertape file image using Teraterm to capture the log of the session while using to load BASIC into the IMSAI. I can use the log to make an ePROM-friendly file. Imsai 8K basic fills 0000..1FDB and stores programs from 2000, so you need some RAM after IFFFh (8K). My IMSAI has an IMSAI SIO serial card. Bill On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:36 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > It's in the Imsai Basic manual as a choice for loading g the software. > > I had the ROM set (8 proms) but I must have overwritten them a long time > ago. > > So, I wanted to make a new set, hoping someone had the eprom files avail > so I could make. > > If not I will build a new setsome.other way. Does anyone have the > papertape image of IMSAI basic 1.3 or 1.4? > > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 11:04 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Wait !! - there was BASIC in ROM for the IMSAI? >> >> How was the memory laid out? What I/O devices did it expect? >> >> Does it run with a Z80 CPU, or only the 8080? >> >> Kindest regards, >> >> Doug Jackson >> >> em: doug(a)doughq.com >> ph: 0414 986878 >> >> >> >> On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 at 12:51, steve shumaker via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > That would be the Imsai 8K BASIC? If so, I have the assembler listing >> > as part of the Imsai manual set. >> > >> > Steve >> > >> > On 6/28/23 7:43 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> > > Anyone have the 2716 ePROM listing for IMSAI Basic. Version 1.4 or >> > > whatever. I once had it, can't find my copy. If not 2716, I'll take >> any >> > > listing that I can convert somehow. >> > > Thanks >> > > Bill >> > >> > >> > --===============4761972717055374031==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 02:56:17 2023 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 22:56:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <80f9d068-4069-9f85-fc4a-1332dd3afdba@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3301859674475602586==" --===============3301859674475602586== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not sure how any of that relates to my post. On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 12:47 AM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-06-22 10:04 p.m., Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > > Didn't see anyone mention it, but one should recall that the whole memory > > space on the 8088/8086 was 1M, so a 'limit' (whatever kind) of 640K > wasn't > > the dumbest computer design decision ever made. In addition to that, > Intel > > was telling people to get ready to jump to iAXP432 because 8086/80286 was > > nothing but a stopgap, and anyway the 80286 was for high-end minicomputer > > replacements, so why assume that more than 1M on an 8086-type CPU for PCs > > for an OS that was going to be obsoleted anyway was the future. > > > > KJ > > > The 640K is a minor point.Look at the PDP 11 you had hoards virtual > memory but code and data only 64kb each. Same as the Intel's small > model. How long were OS's crippled by this fact? > Did the iAXP432 just have 64kb segments as well? > Ben. > > > --===============3301859674475602586==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 03:02:25 2023 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 23:02:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87562029-dd4e-cffa-b5be-3256d46de92@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6641416476052140751==" --===============6641416476052140751== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That's a good point, though like you I don't know of anything that ever tried to take advantage of that theory (though I wouldn't have been paying enough attention at the time to confidently comment, so...). Since it's not 'common knowledge' that it was done, I'd surmise either 1) the reality is harder than the theory, or 2) it made more sense to wait for Intel chips with less limitations, which seemed to me to be what was going on at the time. But certainly an interesting 'what if'. KJ On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 3:37 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Ken Seefried wrote: > > Didn't see anyone mention it, but one should recall that the whole memory > > space on the 8088/8086 was 1M, so a 'limit' (whatever kind) of 640K > wasn't > > Well, it only has 20 address bits. But it can address much more memory > because it has additional information on some status pins about what > segment register is used for adressing. So in theory, you could have one > separate 1Mb of memory for each possible segment register. Or at least you > could easily separate the stack from the other memory. > Anyone here know of a design that actually made use of this? > > Christian > --===============6641416476052140751==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 03:02:45 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 20:02:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2403155275178427338==" --===============2403155275178427338== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 7:39 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > So I was able to get the listing for the PROMs by using the HEX file of > IMSAI BASIC 1.4 from.Rich Cini's website. I was able to then pull the > Intel papertape file image using Teraterm to capture the log of the session > while using to load BASIC into the IMSAI. I can use the log to make an > ePROM-friendly file. Sounds like a convoluted way to convert a HEX file into a binary file, or whatever you mean by an EPROM friendly file. I imagine most EPROM programmers can directly take an Intel HEX file as an input file. If you needed a binary file, you could also use SRecord 1.65 srec_cat to convert the Intel HEX file to a binary file, and split it up into smaller chunks if you need to split the 8KB binary into smaller EPROMs. https://srecord.sourceforge.net/ --===============2403155275178427338==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 03:12:14 2023 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PCs Limited XT Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 23:11:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20d1d694-f729-b1d4-0f49-7f4b7ed21bca@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4309758681257616262==" --===============4309758681257616262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting thought. I don't think I ever had to look for a layer 3 RPL helper. RPL seems to have fallen out of favor around the time IP took over the world. On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 9:06=E2=80=AFAM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > That was it, Remote Program Load. Simple protocol, ran at the MAC layer > if I recall, and worked. However it had an issue with routers and I > think BOOTP was easier to use with a "helper" on the switch or router to > handle it. > > Old stuff. But yes pull that ROM chip or Arcnet card and it should boot > to floppy or HD. > > CZ > > On 6/22/2023 11:46 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > >> BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. > > Could that be RPL? I have a WD800x ethernet card with netboot PROM sold > > with a "Netware ready" or some such workstation that it took me a bit to > > figure out was looking for an RPL boot server, not BOOTP/TFTP. > > > > On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 9:11=E2=80=AFPM Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> Sitting here paging in old stuff from my brain. I'll bet you have an > >> ArcNet card, and on the card it has a BIOS bootloader that was designed > >> to do a BOOTP load of a DOS from a Netware or 3Com server. > >> > >> Pull the card and it will probably boot normally off the floppy. > >> > >> CZ > >> > >> On 6/14/2023 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > >>> Guys...I just wanted to know if anyone has either an original user/tech > >>> guide or worked with the actual specific machine. Maybe there is a > >>> password reset util disk image floating around specific to the original > >> PCs > >>> Limited system, or a backdoor password ...that's what I am after...the > >>> original stuff that came with it. > >>> > >>> I learned ctrl+alt+ - toggles Turbo/ regular mode, by trial and error. > >>> > >>> Bill > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 6:36 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> What cards are plugged into the motherboard? > >>>> > >>>> What video do you have connected? > >>>> > >>>> On 3 digit error codes, 4xx was monochrome video problems > >>>> > >>>> Do you get any beeps? > >>>> > >>>> Does it have a dipswitch (SW1)? What are the current settings of it? > >>>> With all cards removed, and SW1 (if it has one) switches 5 and 6 off, > do > >>>> you get beeps? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Do you have any other 5160s available? (consider swapping BIOS ROM) > >>>> > --===============4309758681257616262==-- From mumpsdev@icloud.com Fri Jun 30 03:50:09 2023 From: Tommy Chang To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 20:42:45 -0700 Message-ID: <0A90C628-DEC1-40D9-A9B8-22B664BBA460@icloud.com> In-Reply-To: <7dee1be3-d657-4dc3-a46c-c19637301587@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0034000530522543398==" --===============0034000530522543398== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, As a MUMPS programmer, I would definitely be interested=E2=80=A6 A former bo= ss lent me his copy once. I should have scanned it.=20 Tommy Chang Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 28, 2023, at 2:37 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFWell, it's huge. As in totally fills a large DEC binder. Seems to = have the following: >=20 > Introduction to DSM >=20 > Language reference >=20 > User's Guide >=20 > XDT reference >=20 > Release Notes >=20 > Would go well with that copy of DSM I have imaged on an RD52 drive. >=20 > So does anyone in MD have access to a faster scanner than mine (Pixma 870)? >=20 > CZ >=20 >> On 6/28/2023 5:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>=20 >>>> On Jun 28, 2023, at 5:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> While looking for my RSX11 DECNET manual (because the online version does= n't have any examples of commands which is why you look in the manual in the = first place) I found a copy of the DSM binder AA-K676B-TK and ilk. >>>=20 >>> Is this online or does anyone else have it? >> It sure doesn't seem to be on-line. In fact, Googling that document numbe= r produces exactly one hit (another DEC document which mentions this document= in the text). Getting that scanned would be neat. >>=20 >> paul --===============0034000530522543398==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Fri Jun 30 07:11:53 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 02:11:42 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4712289869061040462==" --===============4712289869061040462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/29/23 21:39, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > So I was able to get the listing for the PROMs by using the HEX file of > IMSAI BASIC 1.4 from.Rich Cini's website. I was able to then pull the > Intel papertape file image using Teraterm to capture the log of the session > while using to load BASIC into the IMSAI. I can use the log to make an > ePROM-friendly file. > > Imsai 8K basic fills 0000..1FDB and stores programs from 2000, so you need > some RAM after IFFFh (8K). > > My IMSAI has an IMSAI SIO serial card. > > Bill > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:36 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > > for those who come by 5 years from now, hopefully these links work: Basic Listing: http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/Imsai/Imsai%208K%20Basic.pdf This seems to have the hex images: http://cini.classiccmp.org/zips/IMSAI%20BASICs.zip I know there's a bit of a fuss about archive . org but they don't seem to have most of the useful data in the Richard Cini pages slurped up.  Will see if that can be remedied.  I'd like such things if they can inhale them to be there in case something happens to the classiccmp . org servers. thanks Jim --===============4712289869061040462==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Jun 30 07:42:49 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 03:42:41 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0A90C628-DEC1-40D9-A9B8-22B664BBA460@icloud.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6345433756076186990==" --===============6345433756076186990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Okies. Another unique thingie in my life, need to get it out there. So any suggestions on companies that can do the scans in or around Baltimore MD? I'd do it for endless beer privileges at future meets/get togethers :-) CZ On 6/29/2023 11:42 PM, Tommy Chang wrote: > Hello, > > As a MUMPS programmer, I would definitely be interested… A former boss > lent me his copy once. I should have scanned it. > > Tommy Chang > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 28, 2023, at 2:37 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> Well, it's huge. As in totally fills a large DEC binder. Seems to >> have the following: >> >> Introduction to DSM >> >> Language reference >> >> User's Guide >> >> XDT reference >> >> Release Notes >> >> Would go well with that copy of DSM I have imaged on an RD52 drive. >> >> So does anyone in MD have access to a faster scanner than mine (Pixma >> 870)? >> >> CZ >> >>> On 6/28/2023 5:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>>>> On Jun 28, 2023, at 5:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk >>>>> wrote: >>>> While looking for my RSX11 DECNET manual (because the online >>>> version doesn't have any examples of commands which is why you look >>>> in the manual in the first place) I found a copy of the DSM binder >>>> AA-K676B-TK and ilk. >>>> >>>> Is this online or does anyone else have it? >>> It sure doesn't seem to be on-line. In fact, Googling that document >>> number produces exactly one hit (another DEC document which mentions >>> this document in the text). Getting that scanned would be neat. >>> >>> paul --===============6345433756076186990==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 12:58:22 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IMSAI BASIC PROM set? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 08:58:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5672314607735300105==" --===============5672314607735300105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:12 AM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 6/29/23 21:39, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > So I was able to get the listing for the PROMs by using the HEX file of > > IMSAI BASIC 1.4 from.Rich Cini's website. I was able to then pull the > > Intel papertape file image using Teraterm to capture the log of the > session > > while using to load BASIC into the IMSAI. I can use the log to make an > > ePROM-friendly file. > > > > Imsai 8K basic fills 0000..1FDB and stores programs from 2000, so you > need > > some RAM after IFFFh (8K). > > > > My IMSAI has an IMSAI SIO serial card. > > > > Bill > > > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:36 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > > > > > > for those who come by 5 years from now, hopefully these links work: > Basic Listing: > http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/Imsai/Imsai%208K%20Basic.pdf > This seems to have the hex images: > http://cini.classiccmp.org/zips/IMSAI%20BASICs.zip > > I know there's a bit of a fuss about archive . org but they don't seem > to have most of the useful data in the Richard Cini pages slurped up. > Will see if that can be remedied. I'd like such things if they can > inhale them to be there in case something happens to the classiccmp . > org servers. > > thanks > Jim > I don't remember the exact story but Dan Roganti I think had something to do with assembling or at least mirroring the images. He made the original eProm set we were playing with back in the 2000's.. Dan hosted his copy and site on Bob Applegates old TwoCows-hosted web site applegate.org. That server went down and everything lost with it....I always thought *I* had a copy hosted on vintagecomputer.net....you never know until you need it. So, yes it would be nice if there were more copies of a pretty historic program than just Rich's site, as reliable as it appears to have been. I will upload a copy to vintagecomputer.net/imsai/ (for future person) Bill --===============5672314607735300105==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Fri Jun 30 13:03:06 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 03:42:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0A90C628-DEC1-40D9-A9B8-22B664BBA460@icloud.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9179509443452077636==" --===============9179509443452077636== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okies. Another unique thingie in my life, need to get it out there. So any suggestions on companies that can do the scans in or around=20 Baltimore MD? I'd do it for endless beer privileges at future meets/get=20 togethers :-) CZ On 6/29/2023 11:42 PM, Tommy Chang wrote: > Hello, > > As a MUMPS programmer, I would definitely be interested=E2=80=A6 A former = boss lent me his copy once. I should have scanned it. > > Tommy Chang > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 28, 2023, at 2:37 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFWell, it's huge. As in totally fills a large DEC binder. Seems to= have the following: >> >> Introduction to DSM >> >> Language reference >> >> User's Guide >> >> XDT reference >> >> Release Notes >> >> Would go well with that copy of DSM I have imaged on an RD52 drive. >> >> So does anyone in MD have access to a faster scanner than mine (Pixma 870)? >> >> CZ >> >>> On 6/28/2023 5:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>>>> On Jun 28, 2023, at 5:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>>> While looking for my RSX11 DECNET manual (because the online version doe= sn't have any examples of commands which is why you look in the manual in the= first place) I found a copy of the DSM binder AA-K676B-TK and ilk. >>>> >>>> Is this online or does anyone else have it? >>> It sure doesn't seem to be on-line. In fact, Googling that document numb= er produces exactly one hit (another DEC document which mentions this documen= t in the text). Getting that scanned would be neat. >>> >>> paul --===============9179509443452077636==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jun 30 13:15:42 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 09:15:33 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1095971449749843021==" --===============1095971449749843021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 30, 2023, at 3:42 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Okies. Another unique thingie in my life, need to get it out there. >=20 > So any suggestions on companies that can do the scans in or around Baltimor= e MD? I'd do it for endless beer privileges at future meets/get togethers :-) >=20 > CZ I've used scanning services at Staples. In my case, large format scanning, b= ut I think the store I went to also had a letter size scanner with a feeder. Another possibility would be to find someone nearby interested in helping who= works at a company that uses modern copiers/scanners/fax machines. Copiers = are often "digital copiers" which means they are actually a scanner feeding a= printer, and "scan to USB stick" tends to be one of the features. Those wil= l scan at typical office copier speeds. Some will do the job in color, if yo= u need that. paul --===============1095971449749843021==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Jun 30 20:39:59 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Oh Q-Bus, you can be a fickle mistress at times.... Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 16:39:51 -0400 Message-ID: <8630337c-98de-d6e0-37a2-f0f8ae07d106@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6480960856906783772==" --===============6480960856906783772== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So I had a fellow list member show up and trade me an AUI cable for reading some of his old RX01/02 disks to see if there was anything on them. Not a big deal, TALOS (my 11/83) has pretty much everything: 11/83 CPU board with FPJ11 MSV11-QD card with 4mb memory (lots o' disk cache) RXV21 plus RX02 drive RLV12 plus two RL02 drives (and an RL01 in a pinch) TQK70 and TK70 tape drive DELQA Ethernet DZQ11 4 port serial board And the MTI ESDI disk controller with a 330mb half height ESDI disk Overall it's a pretty fast and solid system. I have RT11 on DU4:, RSXM+ on DU0:, and plenty of power to do anything. However when we fired it up we got nothing on the terminal. Great. So I went to TITAN, which is another BA23 equipped 11/73 with: 11/73-B board wo FPJ11 2mb memory (Datamation) TQK70+TK50 (my other TK70 doesn't write properly for some God unknown reason) DEQNA Ethernet (it works) DHV11 8 port serial board That odd little 3016 real time clock board I never seem to get around to loading drivers for RQDX3 jumpered for RD54 running RSX11M+ (not bad with cache) 20mb HH drive with XXDP+ utils 40mb HH drive with RT11 5.4 all drivers (last version that supports the TU58) That worked, we were able to move over the RXV21 and read the disks, but I was wondering what was wrong with my main system. So after he left I pulled it apart. Problem seems to be the MTI card was not booting up properly, and since it holds the Q bus in a frozen state until the disk spins to ready it was blocking the system. Pulled it, cleaned the pins with 1500 grit sandpaper, put it back in, it now works. Great. So every once in awhile I guess I have to check the pins on these old 11's. They run well and are starting to be used more, but they still have weird problems from time to time. CZ --===============6480960856906783772==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Jun 30 20:52:01 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Found the DSM orange manual Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 15:49:54 -0500 Message-ID: <2a6d264f-9faa-4974-21df-101d14ad55b3@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6043511816400831887==" --===============6043511816400831887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm in the western suburbs of Chicago but if the manual is unbound (3=20 ring or 18 hole cerlock) where the pages will fit into a document feeder=20 I have a Xerox copier/printer/scanner that can do double sided scanning. You pay postage both ways, I am happy to scan it for you. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mike On 6/30/2023 8:15 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jun 30, 2023, at 3:42 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Okies. Another unique thingie in my life, need to get it out there. >> >> So any suggestions on companies that can do the scans in or around Baltimo= re MD? I'd do it for endless beer privileges at future meets/get togethers :-) >> >> CZ > I've used scanning services at Staples. In my case, large format scanning,= but I think the store I went to also had a letter size scanner with a feeder. > > Another possibility would be to find someone nearby interested in helping w= ho works at a company that uses modern copiers/scanners/fax machines. Copier= s are often "digital copiers" which means they are actually a scanner feeding= a printer, and "scan to USB stick" tends to be one of the features. Those w= ill scan at typical office copier speeds. Some will do the job in color, if = you need that. > > paul > --===============6043511816400831887==--