From seefriek@gmail.com Mon May 1 00:07:58 2023 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Anyone have an sn74s516? Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2023 20:07:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2382510942497910718==" --===============2382510942497910718== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm interested in recreating MMI application note AN-114 which describes adding an sn74s516 mult/div/acc chip to a 68000. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find an sn74s516 in the couple of years I've been looking. Does anyone have some they'd be willing to part with? KJ --===============2382510942497910718==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon May 1 00:22:56 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone have an sn74s516? Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2023 20:22:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0310609712172674765==" --===============0310609712172674765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 8:08 PM Ken Seefried via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm interested in recreating MMI application note AN-114 which describes > adding an sn74s516 mult/div/acc chip to a 68000. Unfortunately, I haven't > been able to find an sn74s516 in the couple of years I've been looking. > Does anyone have some they'd be willing to part with? > > KJ > I checked, don't have any, sorry. Bill --===============0310609712172674765==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Mon May 1 01:47:25 2023 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC RL device Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 01:47:17 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4286968653392481255==" --===============4286968653392481255== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone tell me what I picked up at a NH hamfest this weekend for $20? I s= ee it says RL01/RL02. I have two RL02 drives and some platters. None of which= I have gotten around to trying. Other than a copious amount of pine needles,= what can this be used for? Or maybe the right question is, should I not use = it for fear of destroying an RL platter? https://w2hx.com/?prefix=3Dx/VintageComp/Platter-Device/ 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos --===============4286968653392481255==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Mon May 1 02:28:10 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RL device Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2023 21:27:48 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB5269EE8A91E773EF77FFE2C8B56E9=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0947567146225759317==" --===============0947567146225759317== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 8:47=E2=80=AFPM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone tell me what I picked up at a NH hamfest this weekend for $20? I= see it says RL01/RL02. I have two RL02 drives and some platters. None of whi= ch I have gotten around to trying. Other than a copious amount of pine needle= s, what can this be used for? Or maybe the right question is, should I not us= e it for fear of destroying an RL platter? > > https://w2hx.com/?prefix=3Dx/VintageComp/Platter-Device/ Wow! Pretty neat - looks like a pack inspector for RK05, RL01/02, and RK06/07 based on the (blurry) instructions. Runout, at least, and certainly a few other measurements - would probably identify a pack that had been dropped hard enough to bend something (before you stuff it in a drive and ruin both). It doesn't look like a cleaner - I've seen an RK05 cleaner and it's a bit different - more about running a Texpad over the surface while slowly rotating than measuring anything. Cool find! -ethan --===============0947567146225759317==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon May 1 02:32:28 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RL device Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2023 22:32:13 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB5269EE8A91E773EF77FFE2C8B56E9=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1210274172506237781==" --===============1210274172506237781== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Can you send clear images of the entire thing in one shot, open and closed? And the ports. BIll On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 9:47 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone tell me what I picked up at a NH hamfest this weekend for $20? > I see it says RL01/RL02. I have two RL02 drives and some platters. None of > which I have gotten around to trying. Other than a copious amount of pine > needles, what can this be used for? Or maybe the right question is, should > I not use it for fear of destroying an RL platter? > > https://w2hx.com/?prefix=x/VintageComp/Platter-Device/ > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > > --===============1210274172506237781==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon May 1 02:36:42 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RL device Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2023 19:36:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB5269EE8A91E773EF77FFE2C8B56E9=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0998656606414713592==" --===============0998656606414713592== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It looks like a Turbo encabulator but it's missing the flux capacitor. Sellam On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 6:47 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone tell me what I picked up at a NH hamfest this weekend for $20? > I see it says RL01/RL02. I have two RL02 drives and some platters. None of > which I have gotten around to trying. Other than a copious amount of pine > needles, what can this be used for? Or maybe the right question is, should > I not use it for fear of destroying an RL platter? > > https://w2hx.com/?prefix=x/VintageComp/Platter-Device/ > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > > --===============0998656606414713592==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Mon May 1 06:16:16 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 07:16:04 +0100 Message-ID: <007d01d97bf4$69538c20$3bfaa460$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <006701d97ba3$3733fd20$a59bf760$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1715300018276497731==" --===============1715300018276497731== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I need to order higher tolerance ones. However, I was wondering, would a sens= ible strategy be to go through the ones that I have and find one that outputs= a voltage closer to the spec? Or would that just be storing up trouble for t= he future? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2023 9:35 PM > To: 'Wayne S' > Cc: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > Looks like the one I used is an L7812CV, which has a looser tolerance. I am > going to have to order some tighter tolerance parts. >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Wayne S > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2023 7:42 PM > > To: Wayne S > > Cc: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > > Posts ; Rob Jarratt > > > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > The CT version is 4%, the ACT is 2%. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Apr 30, 2023, at 11:37, Wayne S wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFSpec sheet for the 7812 shows 2 versions - 4% and 2% tolerance= s. So > > > the > > voltages your measuring are within the 4% part. Maybe you do need the > > 2% one. > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >> On Apr 30, 2023, at 11:26, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > >> =EF=BB=BFI think I have found a possible cause, but not too sure what = to do > > >> about it if I have. > > >> > > >> I had to replace the 7812 regulator that supplies Vstart. The new > > >> one has an output that seems to vary between 12.2 and 12.4V. The > > >> 7812 on the good PSU outputs a steady 12.1V. I think that is enough > > >> to cause the E3d comparator to turn the comparator off and allow > > >> its output to > > float high. > > >> > > >> I suspect I may have used one with a wide tolerance rather than a > > >> narrow one, or just have a bad one. It should be a genuine part as > > >> it came from CPC Farnell. Not quite sure why the output varies on > > >> the bad > > one though. > > >> > > >> Regards > > >> > > >> Rob > > >> > > >> > > >> --===============1715300018276497731==-- From go@ao-cs.com Mon May 1 06:26:45 2023 From: -Gary To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re 516s Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2023 23:17:58 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3046102938845762446==" --===============3046102938845762446== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have at least 5 in my stock. I could easily part with one or two. I would= rather trade rather than get cash. Do you have anything to offer in trade? -Gary --===============3046102938845762446==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Mon May 1 10:13:38 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 10:25:41 +0100 Message-ID: <01SQUHHW31JU8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <007d01d97bf4$69538c20$3bfaa460$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8994685248820750780==" --===============8994685248820750780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems a bit odd that a power supply from someone like DEC of that era would be designed to depend so critically on the absolute value of a rail used for startup purposes. The output of the replacement 7812 varying between 12.2V and 12.4V suggest th= at the 7812 itself could be faulty. Or maybe it could be oscillating due to a failure in the smoothing/reservoir/decoupling capacitors on either side of it, especially the 10uF and 2.2uF capacitors connected to it's output? It might = be useful to see what Vstart looks like with an oscilloscope. If the value of Vstart is really critical enough to change the state of E3d, I would suggest checking the resistors connected to the inputs and output of E3d, especially the 360k resistor. Assuming it is getting a reasonable power supply on pins 3 and 12 (whose value should not be critical), the output of E3d should depend solely on the relationship between the voltages at it's two inputs. If the output does not correspond with what the inputs say it should be, then the comparator itself is probably faulty. Regards, Peter Coghlan. >=20 > I need to order higher tolerance ones. However, I was wondering, would a > sensible strategy be to go through the ones that I have and find one that > outputs a voltage closer to the spec? Or would that just be storing up > trouble for the future? >=20 > Regards >=20 > Rob >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rob Jarratt > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2023 9:35 PM > > To: 'Wayne S' > > Cc: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Post= s' > > > > Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > >=20 > > Looks like the one I used is an L7812CV, which has a looser tolerance. I = am > > going to have to order some tighter tolerance parts. > >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Wayne S > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2023 7:42 PM > > > To: Wayne S > > > Cc: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > > > Posts ; Rob Jarratt > > > > > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > > > The CT version is 4%, the ACT is 2%. > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Apr 30, 2023, at 11:37, Wayne S wrote: > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFSpec sheet for the 7812 shows 2 versions - 4% and 2% toleran= ces. So > > > > the > > > voltages your measuring are within the 4% part. Maybe you do need the > > > 2% one. > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > >> On Apr 30, 2023, at 11:26, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> =EF=BB=BFI think I have found a possible cause, but not too sure wha= t to do > > > >> about it if I have. > > > >> > > > >> I had to replace the 7812 regulator that supplies Vstart. The new > > > >> one has an output that seems to vary between 12.2 and 12.4V. The > > > >> 7812 on the good PSU outputs a steady 12.1V. I think that is enough > > > >> to cause the E3d comparator to turn the comparator off and allow > > > >> its output to > > > float high. > > > >> > > > >> I suspect I may have used one with a wide tolerance rather than a > > > >> narrow one, or just have a bad one. It should be a genuine part as > > > >> it came from CPC Farnell. Not quite sure why the output varies on > > > >> the bad > > > one though. > > > >> > > > >> Regards > > > >> > > > >> Rob > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --===============8994685248820750780==-- From alexandre.tabajara@gmail.com Mon May 1 10:53:52 2023 From: Alexandre Souza To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RL device Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 07:53:36 -0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4754006631588536543==" --===============4754006631588536543== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Out of stock in the manufacturer, I am on the waiting list for one, it is used on my crystal ball. Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em dom., 30 de abr. de 2023 23:36, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> escreveu: > It looks like a Turbo encabulator but it's missing the flux capacitor. > > Sellam > > On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 6:47 PM W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > Can anyone tell me what I picked up at a NH hamfest this weekend for $20? > > I see it says RL01/RL02. I have two RL02 drives and some platters. None > of > > which I have gotten around to trying. Other than a copious amount of pine > > needles, what can this be used for? Or maybe the right question is, > should > > I not use it for fear of destroying an RL platter? > > > > https://w2hx.com/?prefix=x/VintageComp/Platter-Device/ > > > > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > > > > > --===============4754006631588536543==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon May 1 12:33:44 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RL device Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 08:33:12 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8487352901172782310==" --===============8487352901172782310== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Apr 30, 2023, at 10:27 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 8:47=E2=80=AFPM W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> Can anyone tell me what I picked up at a NH hamfest this weekend for $20? = I see it says RL01/RL02. I have two RL02 drives and some platters. None of wh= ich I have gotten around to trying. Other than a copious amount of pine needl= es, what can this be used for? Or maybe the right question is, should I not u= se it for fear of destroying an RL platter? >>=20 >> https://w2hx.com/?prefix=3Dx/VintageComp/Platter-Device/ >=20 > Wow! Pretty neat - looks like a pack inspector for RK05, RL01/02, and > RK06/07 based on the (blurry) instructions. Runout, at least, and > certainly a few other measurements - would probably identify a pack > that had been dropped hard enough to bend something (before you stuff > it in a drive and ruin both). >=20 > It doesn't look like a cleaner - I've seen an RK05 cleaner and it's a > bit different - more about running a Texpad over the surface while > slowly rotating than measuring anything. >=20 > Cool find! It would be nice to get a non-blurry photo of the instruction plate. It does= seem to say that it's both a cleaner and an inspection device. The inspecti= on part includes mirrors to let you view the platter surfaces (look for scrat= ch marks) as you rotate the pack slowly by hand. Yes, cleaning for packs of that vintage is fairly simple, a lint-free pad lik= e Texwipe, isopropyl alcohol as the cleaning solvent. High purity would be g= ood; 70% "rubbing alcohol" from the corner drugstore is not the best option. = :-) I can't quite figure out what the "runout" thing is. Runout seems like a fac= tory parameter, not something you'd check in the field. Or might it mean ver= tical distortion (warping) of the platter? That's not the normal meaning. I= have seen bent platters, but I'm not sure how you'd get runout in the normal= sense of the word even if a pack were dropped fairly hard. (The bent platte= r I remember was on an RP04 pack that was shipped to me for a customer on-sit= e support call; it was packaged badly by so the pack cover was banged which i= n turn pushed against the bottom platter and bent it upward. Oops.) paul --===============8487352901172782310==-- From marten@feldtmann.online Mon May 1 14:14:49 2023 From: Marten Feldtmann To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for datasheet of RTC M3001 ... Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 12:35:52 +0200 Message-ID: <5f278949-3476-8fba-895b-adf117255981@feldtmann.online> In-Reply-To: <9e3a491d-eb0f-5845-57c7-b9b6d9235865@kopriva.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2894581859250625073==" --===============2894581859250625073== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read the request at the ns32k site and I found out via another request, that the datasheet has been published in the Elektor Book "IC-Datenbuch teil 3". Perhaps you find an owner of that book. Marten --===============2894581859250625073==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Mon May 1 16:20:28 2023 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RL device Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 16:20:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0795623463227909469==" --===============0795623463227909469== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok thanks guys. Here is a better picture of the inside cover https://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Platter-Device/insidecover.jpg I would love to find a manual to this. There are lots of extra bits stored in= side a compartment. But I am not near the unit at this time. Anyone have any idea about where to find documentation? Or even what the name= /model of the product might be for googling? 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos =20 -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning via cctalk =20 Sent: Monday, May 1, 2023 8:33 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Ethan Dicks ; Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RL device > On Apr 30, 2023, at 10:27 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 8:47=E2=80=AFPM W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> Can anyone tell me what I picked up at a NH hamfest this weekend for $20? = I see it says RL01/RL02. I have two RL02 drives and some platters. None of wh= ich I have gotten around to trying. Other than a copious amount of pine needl= es, what can this be used for? Or maybe the right question is, should I not u= se it for fear of destroying an RL platter? >>=20 >> https://w2hx.com/?prefix=3Dx/VintageComp/Platter-Device/ >=20 > Wow! Pretty neat - looks like a pack inspector for RK05, RL01/02, and > RK06/07 based on the (blurry) instructions. Runout, at least, and=20 > certainly a few other measurements - would probably identify a pack=20 > that had been dropped hard enough to bend something (before you stuff=20 > it in a drive and ruin both). >=20 > It doesn't look like a cleaner - I've seen an RK05 cleaner and it's a=20 > bit different - more about running a Texpad over the surface while=20 > slowly rotating than measuring anything. >=20 > Cool find! It would be nice to get a non-blurry photo of the instruction plate. It does= seem to say that it's both a cleaner and an inspection device. The inspecti= on part includes mirrors to let you view the platter surfaces (look for scrat= ch marks) as you rotate the pack slowly by hand. Yes, cleaning for packs of that vintage is fairly simple, a lint-free pad lik= e Texwipe, isopropyl alcohol as the cleaning solvent. High purity would be g= ood; 70% "rubbing alcohol" from the corner drugstore is not the best option. = :-) I can't quite figure out what the "runout" thing is. Runout seems like a fac= tory parameter, not something you'd check in the field. Or might it mean ver= tical distortion (warping) of the platter? That's not the normal meaning. I= have seen bent platters, but I'm not sure how you'd get runout in the normal= sense of the word even if a pack were dropped fairly hard. (The bent platte= r I remember was on an RP04 pack that was shipped to me for a customer on-sit= e support call; it was packaged badly by so the pack cover was banged which i= n turn pushed against the bottom platter and bent it upward. Oops.) paul --===============0795623463227909469==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon May 1 16:32:52 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 3D Printing Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 12:32:45 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2162180121888410250==" --===============2162180121888410250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Are there any 3D printing experts hanging around here?  I need help. I want to print things like a bracket to mount my FreHD in a disk bay. Some other things, too.  The problem is the STL file wants to print these items vertically instead  of laying flat on the table.  Needless to say by the time it gets to the part where it wants to print the faceplate the object is unstable or, in some cases, completely tipped over. Is there any way to change the orientation of an object on the table using just the STL file? I have a Creality Ender 3 printer and their slicer software. bill --===============2162180121888410250==-- From drb@msu.edu Mon May 1 16:42:32 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3D Printing Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 12:42:27 -0400 Message-ID: <20230501164227.185A839F761@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580B00C7C18C875E946B338ED6E9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7438276552305380130==" --===============7438276552305380130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is there any way to change the orientation of an object on the table > using just the STL file? Creality's slicer software is a fork of Cura. Cura can rotate objects on the platform during the slicing process. Not sure I've ever actually used Creality's version, but in the more generic version I use, the workflow is something like this: 1. Click the object to select it. 2. Find and click the rotate button in the toolbar on the left (circular arrow); the object is now surrounded by a "gyroscope". 3. Use the arrows on the "gyroscope" to rotate the object. Seems like there was a button somewhere to pick a face of the object and make it coincident with the build platform, too. De --===============7438276552305380130==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Mon May 1 16:59:30 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3D Printing Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 09:59:24 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580B00C7C18C875E946B338ED6E9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1388528000978688453==" --===============1388528000978688453== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 1 May 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Are there any 3D printing experts hanging around here?? I need help. > > > I want to print things like a bracket to mount my FreHD in a disk bay. > > Some other things, too.? The problem is the STL file wants to print these=20 > items > > vertically instead? of laying flat on the table.? Needless to say by the ti= me=20 > it gets > > to the part where it wants to print the faceplate the object is unstable or= ,=20 > in some > > cases, completely tipped over. > > > Is there any way to change the orientation of an object on the table using = > just the > > STL file? > > Bill, you should be able to change the orientation of the part inside the=20 slicer. This is a feature of every slicer I've seen in the last 10 years. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============1388528000978688453==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon May 1 17:31:23 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RL device Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 17:31:13 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB5269C43F45B41F81DF43AE0AB56E9=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5650233198197512919==" --===============5650233198197512919== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 1, 2023, at 09:20, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOk thanks guys. Here is a better picture of the inside cover > https://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Platter-Device/insidecover.jpg >=20 > I would love to find a manual to this. There are lots of extra bits stored = inside a compartment. But I am not near the unit at this time. >=20 > Anyone have any idea about where to find documentation? Or even what the na= me/model of the product might be for googling? >=20 >=20 > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning via cctalk =20 > Sent: Monday, May 1, 2023 8:33 AM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Ethan Dicks ; Paul Koning > Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC RL device >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Apr 30, 2023, at 10:27 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 8:47=E2=80=AFPM W2HX via cctalk wrote: >>> Can anyone tell me what I picked up at a NH hamfest this weekend for $20?= I see it says RL01/RL02. I have two RL02 drives and some platters. None of w= hich I have gotten around to trying. Other than a copious amount of pine need= les, what can this be used for? Or maybe the right question is, should I not = use it for fear of destroying an RL platter? >>>=20 >>> https://w2hx.com/?prefix=3Dx/VintageComp/Platter-Device/ >>=20 >> Wow! Pretty neat - looks like a pack inspector for RK05, RL01/02, and >> RK06/07 based on the (blurry) instructions. Runout, at least, and=20 >> certainly a few other measurements - would probably identify a pack=20 >> that had been dropped hard enough to bend something (before you stuff=20 >> it in a drive and ruin both). >>=20 >> It doesn't look like a cleaner - I've seen an RK05 cleaner and it's a=20 >> bit different - more about running a Texpad over the surface while=20 >> slowly rotating than measuring anything. >>=20 >> Cool find! >=20 > It would be nice to get a non-blurry photo of the instruction plate. It do= es seem to say that it's both a cleaner and an inspection device. The inspec= tion part includes mirrors to let you view the platter surfaces (look for scr= atch marks) as you rotate the pack slowly by hand. >=20 > Yes, cleaning for packs of that vintage is fairly simple, a lint-free pad l= ike Texwipe, isopropyl alcohol as the cleaning solvent. High purity would be= good; 70% "rubbing alcohol" from the corner drugstore is not the best option= . :-) >=20 > I can't quite figure out what the "runout" thing is. Runout seems like a f= actory parameter, not something you'd check in the field. Or might it mean v= ertical distortion (warping) of the platter? That's not the normal meaning. = I have seen bent platters, but I'm not sure how you'd get runout in the norm= al sense of the word even if a pack were dropped fairly hard. (The bent plat= ter I remember was on an RP04 pack that was shipped to me for a customer on-s= ite support call; it was packaged badly by so the pack cover was banged which= in turn pushed against the bottom platter and bent it upward. Oops.) >=20 Runout was often checked in the field ( at least for my RM05 disk packs) by a= professional disk pack service using a dial gauge to see if any platters had= warped. Don=E2=80=99t know about Rl or Rk devices as i didn=E2=80=99t have a= ny. > paul >=20 --===============5650233198197512919==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon May 1 18:26:25 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3D Printing Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 14:26:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4857925071332065093==" --===============4857925071332065093== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Dennis and Gene.  That did the trick. I tried to do that but it seemed all I changed was view but with your suggestions I found the right button and am printing one of the odd pieces right now. Finally I can have enclosures for all these boards I run just sitting on top of the desk. bill --===============4857925071332065093==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Mon May 1 22:23:11 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 15:23:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SQUHHW31JU8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5524309733467447279==" --===============5524309733467447279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-May-01, at 2:25 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > It seems a bit odd that a power supply from someone like DEC of that era wo= uld > be designed to depend so critically on the absolute value of a rail used > for startup purposes. Further to Peter's point above, the 1988 NatSemi databook - which is to say, = from the era of this power supply - specs the 7812 output min-max to be 11.4 = to 12.6V (+/-5%). Your measured Vstart=3D12.4V is well within this. Looking at the schematic, nothing stands out where the distinction from 12 or= 12.1 would matter. You still haven't reported the IC power pin connections. If the neg-supply pi= ns are supplied by -12 rather than GND, it could explain the odd voltage seen= on the E3d +input. There are 3 explicit components in the design which provide -12V at startup. = They didn't throw those components in there just to fill up board space and l= ook pretty. Why would you expect the control circuit to be testable for valid= startup state when you haven't provided the startup environment? --===============5524309733467447279==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon May 1 23:28:34 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3D Printing Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 16:28:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558045474FA4D0EEC3E6A0ACED6E9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1224458039685508705==" --===============1224458039685508705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With all due respect, Bill, this is a 3D printing mailing list question. Sellam On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 11:26 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Thanks Dennis and Gene. That did the trick. > > I tried to do that but it seemed all I changed was view but with your > > suggestions I found the right button and am printing one of the odd > > pieces right now. > > > Finally I can have enclosures for all these boards I run just sitting on > top of > > the desk. > > > bill > > > --===============1224458039685508705==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon May 1 23:29:34 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Mon, 01 May 2023 19:29:25 -0400 Message-ID: <53EE89F6-EEAD-4EB0-B1B7-AF44F7890E1A@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7393796753590213679==" --===============7393796753590213679== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 1, 2023, at 6:23 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2023-May-01, at 2:25 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> It seems a bit odd that a power supply from someone like DEC of that era w= ould >> be designed to depend so critically on the absolute value of a rail used >> for startup purposes. >=20 > Further to Peter's point above, the 1988 NatSemi databook - which is to say= , from the era of this power supply - specs the 7812 output min-max to be 11.= 4 to 12.6V (+/-5%). Your measured Vstart=3D12.4V is well within this. > Looking at the schematic, nothing stands out where the distinction from 12 = or 12.1 would matter. The usual DEC spec for power supplies was +/- 5%. In reality there occasiona= lly were issues: FS told me on one occasion when we had DMC-11s not working r= ight that those actually need +5%, -0%, and that FS people knew this and woul= d adjust power supplies as needed. paul --===============7393796753590213679==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Tue May 2 06:40:06 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 07:39:57 +0100 Message-ID: <00e201d97cc0$e9742b90$bc5c82b0$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8377124577721922457==" --===============8377124577721922457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent Hilpert via cctalk > Sent: Monday, May 1, 2023 11:23 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: Brent Hilpert > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > On 2023-May-01, at 2:25 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > It seems a bit odd that a power supply from someone like DEC of that > > era would be designed to depend so critically on the absolute value of > > a rail used for startup purposes. > > Further to Peter's point above, the 1988 NatSemi databook - which is to say, > from the era of this power supply - specs the 7812 output min-max to be > 11.4 to 12.6V (+/-5%). Your measured Vstart=12.4V is well within this. > Looking at the schematic, nothing stands out where the distinction from 12 or > 12.1 would matter. > > You still haven't reported the IC power pin connections. If the neg-supply > pins are supplied by -12 rather than GND, it could explain the odd voltage > seen on the E3d +input. Sorry, I thought I had done this. The two LM339 comparator power pins are connected to Vstart and GND. The reason for the odd output of E3d seems to be that the positive input is actually higher than the negative one, but only by a small amount, and that small amount would seem to correspond to the slightly higher value of Vstart, because the negative input is the output of a voltage divider from Vstart to ISense -12V+, which is GND. > > There are 3 explicit components in the design which provide -12V at startup. > They didn't throw those components in there just to fill up board space and > look pretty. Why would you expect the control circuit to be testable for valid > startup state when you haven't provided the startup environment? Not quite sure what you mean here. I had advice from a friend to bench test the control module by providing 14V to the input of the 7812. On the good PSU I can see the PWM operate, on the bad one the PWM is shutdown. Regards Rob --===============8377124577721922457==-- From mattislind@gmail.com Tue May 2 06:54:52 2023 From: Mattis Lind To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 08:54:36 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00e201d97cc0$e9742b90$bc5c82b0$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3149235232541857433==" --===============3149235232541857433== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Not quite sure what you mean here. I had advice from a friend to bench test > the control module by providing 14V to the input of the 7812. On the good > PSU I can see the PWM operate, on the bad one the PWM is shutdown. > And what happens if you feed in exactly 12 V on the output of the 7812? Would the PWM work then? By using a lab supply you could check if the circuit is sensitive to variation in the 12V supply. /Mattis > > Regards > > Rob > > --===============3149235232541857433==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Tue May 2 07:19:31 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 08:19:25 +0100 Message-ID: <00e701d97cc6$6d3a5ad0$47af1070$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6284012952868328226==" --===============6284012952868328226== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That=E2=80=99s a good idea, I will try that =20 From: Mattis Lind =20 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2023 7:55 AM To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Rob Jarratt Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault =20 =20 =20 Not quite sure what you mean here. I had advice from a friend to bench test the control module by providing 14V to the input of the 7812. On the good PSU I can see the PWM operate, on the bad one the PWM is shutdown. =20 And what happens if you feed in exactly 12 V on the output of the 7812? Would= the PWM work then? By using a lab supply you could check if the circuit is s= ensitive to variation in the 12V supply. =20 =20 /Mattis =20 Regards Rob --===============6284012952868328226==-- From jon@jonworld.com Tue May 2 11:43:06 2023 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Current Loop Schematics Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 12:42:49 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7949015140092949712==" --===============7949015140092949712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone! I'm working on a project where I need to build an RS-232 to Current Loop adapter. I've seen some schematics on-line and the parts list seems pretty small, but does anyone have a specific set of instructions and schematics that they trust? Or does anyone in the UK have a spare adapter they'd like to send me? :D Thanks! -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============7949015140092949712==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue May 2 12:34:46 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 08:34:16 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4598723249232335893==" --===============4598723249232335893== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems surprisingly hard to find that, though this https://forum.vcfed.org/= index.php?threads/rs-232-to-current-loop-interface.47841/ is close. =20 Conceptually it's really easy. The main tricky part, certainly if you're dri= ving a mechanical terminal like a Teletype, is the current source. You need = something that can drive 20 mA into an inductive load. The classic answer wa= s to use a fairly high voltage with a big series resistor so the inductive im= pedance is much less than the resistance. A current regulator would be a mod= ern replacement. Also, for the case of the inductive load, you'd need a shun= t diode across the switch to absorb the voltage spike from the inductor when = the current is switched off, otherwise the switching transistor will be quick= ly destroyed. paul > On May 2, 2023, at 7:42 AM, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hi everyone! >=20 > I'm working on a project where I need to build an RS-232 to Current > Loop adapter. I've seen some schematics on-line and the parts list > seems pretty small, but does anyone have a specific set of > instructions and schematics that they trust? Or does anyone in the UK > have a spare adapter they'd like to send me? :D >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > --=20 > -Jon > +44 7792 149029 --===============4598723249232335893==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue May 2 13:06:14 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 14:05:57 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3761457120305936641==" --===============3761457120305936641== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 1:34=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > It seems surprisingly hard to find that, though this https://forum.vcfed.or= g/index.php?threads/rs-232-to-current-loop-interface.47841/ is close. > > Conceptually it's really easy. The main tricky part, certainly if you're d= riving a mechanical terminal like a Teletype, is the current source. You nee= d something that can drive 20 mA into an inductive load. The classic answer = was to use a fairly high voltage with a big series resistor so the inductive = impedance is much less than the resistance. A current regulator would be a m= odern replacement. Also, for the case of the inductive load, you'd need a sh= unt diode across the switch to absorb the voltage spike from the inductor whe= n the current is switched off, otherwise the switching transistor will be qui= ckly destroyed. The common version of the Model 33 Teletype with a current loop interface [1] has a bit of electronics inside. A little driver PCB with a couple of transistors on it, a power transformer for it and so on. The result is that although the interface is 20mA or 60mA current loop you are not driving the receive magnet directly and there are no high voltage spikes at the interface terminals. [1] This is by far the most common version of the Model 33 in the UK. If you do have to drive the solenoid directly then (as you're in the UK) look out for the RSGB [2] Teleprinter Handbook. Although, not surprisingly, this is biased towards amateur radio RTTY operation, it has a lot of information on mechanical teleprinters, how to drive them (with circuit diagrams) and so on. [2] Radio Society of Great Britain. Basically our equivalent of the ARRL. -tony --===============3761457120305936641==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Tue May 2 21:29:17 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 21:18:41 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1054552321492682031==" --===============1054552321492682031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Led Driver ICs may merit consideration, e.g. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/l= ed-driver-ics/7377975 for 20 mA. However, they usu have a not insignificant = voltage drop (a few Volts). I have used lots of 10 mA versions for sensing s= witch / relay closures, typically with an ACPL-217 as sense element. And, th= ese days, the catalogs are replete with LED drivers. The classic TLR solution, e.g. 1.25 V drop with an LM317, is written up by Ho= rrowitz and Hill as Current Sources - Three terminal regulator as current sou= rce [3rd Edn $9.3.14 A, pp620] and many data sheets / ANs. The LED drivers s= eem to work just as well, 10+ years ago the LM317 was my standard design. Martin -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 02 May 2023 14:06 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Tony Duell Subject: [cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 1:34=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > It seems surprisingly hard to find that, though this https://forum.vcfed.or= g/index.php?threads/rs-232-to-current-loop-interface.47841/ is close. > > Conceptually it's really easy. The main tricky part, certainly if you're d= riving a mechanical terminal like a Teletype, is the current source. You nee= d something that can drive 20 mA into an inductive load. The classic answer = was to use a fairly high voltage with a big series resistor so the inductive = impedance is much less than the resistance. A current regulator would be a m= odern replacement. Also, for the case of the inductive load, you'd need a sh= unt diode across the switch to absorb the voltage spike from the inductor whe= n the current is switched off, otherwise the switching transistor will be qui= ckly destroyed. The common version of the Model 33 Teletype with a current loop interface [1]= has a bit of electronics inside. A little driver PCB with a couple of transi= stors on it, a power transformer for it and so on. The result is that althoug= h the interface is 20mA or 60mA current loop you are not driving the receive = magnet directly and there are no high voltage spikes at the interface termina= ls. [1] This is by far the most common version of the Model 33 in the UK. If you do have to drive the solenoid directly then (as you're in the UK) look out for the RSGB [2] Teleprinter Handbook. Although, not surprisingl= y, this is biased towards amateur radio RTTY operation, it has a lot of infor= mation on mechanical teleprinters, how to drive them (with circuit diagrams) = and so on. [2] Radio Society of Great Britain. Basically our equivalent of the ARRL. -tony --===============1054552321492682031==-- From deramp5113@yahoo.com Wed May 3 05:32:41 2023 From: Mike Douglas To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 19:15:30 -0500 Message-ID: <1F21BFB9-25FE-423A-AE9D-144F0A1C56B5@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1F21BFB9-25FE-423A-AE9D-144F0A1C56B5.ref@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5810443198637542990==" --===============5810443198637542990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it=E2=80=99s specifically to interface to a model 33 Teletype, here=E2=80= =99s a design that works well and is pretty simple.=20 https://altairclone.com/teletype.html Mike --===============5810443198637542990==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Wed May 3 23:59:05 2023 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] The World Wide Web Date: Wed, 03 May 2023 19:58:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6076142689843307045==" --===============6076142689843307045== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 30 years ago the World Wide Web came into public existence. It has enabled cctalk to flourish. Murray 🙂 --===============6076142689843307045==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu May 4 00:09:45 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Wed, 03 May 2023 20:09:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0237509704638587925==" --===============0237509704638587925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/3/2023 7:58 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > 30 years ago the World Wide Web came into public existence. It has enabled > cctalk to flourish. > What did the World Wide Web have to do with mailing lists flourishing?  We had text based discussions long before that in the form of Usenet and Mailing lists. bill --===============0237509704638587925==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Thu May 4 00:19:49 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Wed, 03 May 2023 17:19:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55809BCED4AEF5CA8B403687ED6D9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5200221668072405643==" --===============5200221668072405643== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am with Murray on this one. Maybe because of the WWW and not via Gopher nor= BBS led some of us to discover cctalk.=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On May 3, 2023, at 5:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On 5/3/2023 7:58 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> 30 years ago the World Wide Web came into public existence. It has enabled >> cctalk to flourish. >>=20 >=20 > What did the World Wide Web have to do with mailing lists flourishing? We = had text based >=20 > discussions long before that in the form of Usenet and Mailing lists. >=20 >=20 > bill >=20 >=20 --===============5200221668072405643==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 4 03:08:56 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Wed, 03 May 2023 20:23:11 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55809BCED4AEF5CA8B403687ED6D9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7759822110781139950==" --===============7759822110781139950== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Don't forget fidonet (a network of bulletin board systems). On 5/3/2023 7:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/3/2023 7:58 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> 30 years ago the World Wide Web came into public existence. It has >> enabled >> cctalk to flourish. >> > > What did the World Wide Web have to do with mailing lists > flourishing?  We had text based > > discussions long before that in the form of Usenet and Mailing lists. > > > bill > > --===============7759822110781139950==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Thu May 4 12:59:28 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 05:59:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6040341294180257135==" --===============6040341294180257135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 3 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Don't forget fidonet (a network of bulletin board systems). > FidoNet is still a thing too. I'm the NC of Net 138. (which sadly, is now just myself and a couple of other nodes.) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6040341294180257135==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 4 14:21:43 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 08:13:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8696293072634665239==" --===============8696293072634665239== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I closed down my BBS nearly 30 years ago.  I ran Bit Wiz Opus (115/689) for a long time.   I've forgotten what it was called in FidoNet but my system was the gateway for net 115 to the back bone for several years.  At a telephone cost of over $100/month.  I shut it down sometime in the early 90's.  It ran on a 10MHz 286. It's nice to hear that Fidonet still exists though with direct email, blogs, forums, etc.  I'm quite surprised. But then, I play with 50 year old PDP-8 computers so who am I wonder why people keep old technology running😁.          Mike On 5/4/2023 7:59 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 3 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > >> Don't forget fidonet (a network of bulletin board systems). >> > FidoNet is still a thing too.  I'm the NC of Net 138. (which sadly, is > now just myself and a couple of other nodes.) > > g. > --===============8696293072634665239==-- From julf@julf.com Thu May 4 14:40:21 2023 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 16:35:06 +0200 Message-ID: <148da761-1661-22eb-83b9-4193343944d8@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1372250360697822327==" --===============1372250360697822327== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 04/05/2023 14:59, geneb via cctalk wrote: > FidoNet is still a thing too. So is USENET. Julf --===============1372250360697822327==-- From ethan@757.org Thu May 4 15:28:54 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 11:28:49 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <148da761-1661-22eb-83b9-4193343944d8@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5942812019778875457==" --===============5942812019778875457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> FidoNet is still a thing too. > So is USENET. > Julf And bigger than ever (storage size wise.) - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============5942812019778875457==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Thu May 4 15:30:29 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 08:30:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8739604135991414202==" --===============8739604135991414202== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 4 May 2023, Mike Katz wrote: > I closed down my BBS nearly 30 years ago.=C2=A0 I ran Bit Wiz Opus (115/689= ) for a=20 > long time.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I've forgotten what it was called in FidoNet but my = system was=20 > the gateway for net 115 to the back bone for several years.=C2=A0 At a tele= phone=20 > cost of over $100/month.=C2=A0 I shut it down sometime in the early 90's.= =C2=A0 It ran=20 > on a 10MHz 286. > > It's nice to hear that Fidonet still exists though with direct email, blogs= ,=20 > forums, etc.=C2=A0 I'm quite surprised. > > But then, I play with 50 year old PDP-8 computers so who am I wonder why=20 > people keep old technology running?. While there are still some nodes running on POTS, it's mostly over IP=20 these days. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============8739604135991414202==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Thu May 4 16:09:03 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 10:08:45 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3759023671223583689==" --===============3759023671223583689== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, May 4, 2023, 6:59 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 3 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > > Don't forget fidonet (a network of bulletin board systems). > > > FidoNet is still a thing too. I'm the NC of Net 138. (which sadly, is now > just myself and a couple of other nodes.) > Sadly, the node lists are super out of date... Warner g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > --===============3759023671223583689==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu May 4 16:47:48 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 12:47:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <148da761-1661-22eb-83b9-4193343944d8@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7713143986808112696==" --===============7713143986808112696== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/4/2023 10:35 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > On 04/05/2023 14:59, geneb via cctalk wrote: > >> FidoNet is still a thing too. > > So is USENET. > >     Julf I was going to jump in and say this but you beat me to it. I am involved in stuff on USENET all the time.  Many groups have been destroyed and are pretty much useless but many of them are still going strong. bill --===============7713143986808112696==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 4 17:04:48 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 11:10:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0840722436527225882==" --===============0840722436527225882== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Running over POTS has it's appeal from a historical standpoint but from a speed standpoint IP is orders of magnitude faster. I think the term I was looking for is Fidonet Echomail Co-ordinator.  And net 115 was the Chicago area. On 5/4/2023 10:30 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 4 May 2023, Mike Katz wrote: > >> I closed down my BBS nearly 30 years ago. I ran Bit Wiz Opus >> (115/689) for a long time.   I've forgotten what it was called in >> FidoNet but my system was the gateway for net 115 to the back bone >> for several years.  At a telephone cost of over $100/month.  I shut >> it down sometime in the early 90's. It ran on a 10MHz 286. >> >> It's nice to hear that Fidonet still exists though with direct email, >> blogs, forums, etc.  I'm quite surprised. >> >> But then, I play with 50 year old PDP-8 computers so who am I wonder >> why people keep old technology running?. > > While there are still some nodes running on POTS, it's mostly over IP > these days. > > g. > --===============0840722436527225882==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Thu May 4 17:09:08 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 10:09:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7304044060556280413==" --===============7304044060556280413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 4 May 2023, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, May 4, 2023, 6:59 AM geneb via cctalk wro= te: > >> On Wed, 3 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Don't forget fidonet (a network of bulletin board systems). >>> >> FidoNet is still a thing too. I'm the NC of Net 138. (which sadly, is now >> just myself and a couple of other nodes.) >> > > Sadly, the node lists are super out of date... > Are you getting a current one? The ones I get are up to date. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============7304044060556280413==-- From dillera@dillernet.com Thu May 4 17:26:32 2023 From: Andrew Diller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 13:26:23 -0400 Message-ID: <89039C2F-55C6-4E73-88E9-1FB2DCCA0F14@dillernet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0773238112891805072==" --===============0773238112891805072== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fidonet is def. a thing. There is a New Zealand group- FSXnet - that I found = when researching how to actually _join_ a Fidonet network. Docs for this from= the pov of someone that has never done it are few. I.E. it seem very hard to= find direction to join into Fidonet unless you are already there. https://fsxnet.nz/fsxnet/join This was done because I am setting up a BBS on a Macintosh SE running System = 6. There is a modern BBS being written today (in C) called SubText BBS that c= an connect up to Fidonet (I connected to FSX net after signing up and getting= a node assignment.). It's cool to get the network messages from all over the= globe on your local BBS. https://jcs.org/subtext My BBS is up: telnet to-> bbs.diller.org login as guest. It's running on a S= E w/ 4MB ram. Setting this up and getting things going was a fun diversion and using a Mac = SE for it was a blast as well. On Fidonet? Send me some mail: massive(a)21:3/178 thanks, -andy > On May 4, 2023, at 8:59 AM, geneb via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > On Wed, 3 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Don't forget fidonet (a network of bulletin board systems). >>=20 > FidoNet is still a thing too. I'm the NC of Net 138. (which sadly, is now = just myself and a couple of other nodes.) >=20 > g. >=20 > --=20 > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >=20 > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============0773238112891805072==-- From julf@julf.com Thu May 4 17:49:36 2023 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 19:41:30 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55802E3F4657C6F2E677E2DBED6D9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0273418587574778837==" --===============0273418587574778837== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Unfortunately my local ISP doesn't run a server any more. :( Back in the 80's I used to run the USENET (and UUCP) gateway for Finland. Julf On 04/05/2023 18:47, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/4/2023 10:35 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: >> On 04/05/2023 14:59, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> >>> FidoNet is still a thing too. >> >> So is USENET. >> >>     Julf > > I was going to jump in and say this but you beat me to it. > > > I am involved in stuff on USENET all the time.  Many groups have been > > destroyed and are pretty much useless but many of them are still going > > strong. > > > bill > > --===============0273418587574778837==-- From pat@vax11.net Thu May 4 17:52:15 2023 From: Patrick Finnegan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 13:51:54 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3160336459523647237==" --===============3160336459523647237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It seems like all of the good USENET providers are subscription services now. I'm not sure of any ISP that I've heard of who still runs one. Pat On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 1:49 PM Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > > Unfortunately my local ISP doesn't run a server any more. :( > > Back in the 80's I used to run the USENET (and UUCP) > gateway for Finland. > > Julf > > On 04/05/2023 18:47, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 5/4/2023 10:35 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > >> On 04/05/2023 14:59, geneb via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> FidoNet is still a thing too. > >> > >> So is USENET. > >> > >> Julf > > > > I was going to jump in and say this but you beat me to it. > > > > > > I am involved in stuff on USENET all the time. Many groups have been > > > > destroyed and are pretty much useless but many of them are still going > > > > strong. > > > > > > bill > > > > --===============3160336459523647237==-- From julf@julf.com Thu May 4 17:54:09 2023 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 19:54:11 +0200 Message-ID: <6bdd0ac7-7e23-f1d5-e68e-dd57876c976d@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7764108375702005125==" --===============7764108375702005125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A shame. :( Julf On 04/05/2023 19:51, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It seems like all of the good USENET providers are subscription > services now. I'm not sure of any ISP that I've heard of who still > runs one. > > Pat > > On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 1:49 PM Johan Helsingius via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Unfortunately my local ISP doesn't run a server any more. :( >> >> Back in the 80's I used to run the USENET (and UUCP) >> gateway for Finland. >> >> Julf >> >> On 04/05/2023 18:47, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 5/4/2023 10:35 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 04/05/2023 14:59, geneb via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> FidoNet is still a thing too. >>>> >>>> So is USENET. >>>> >>>> Julf >>> >>> I was going to jump in and say this but you beat me to it. >>> >>> >>> I am involved in stuff on USENET all the time. Many groups have been >>> >>> destroyed and are pretty much useless but many of them are still going >>> >>> strong. >>> >>> >>> bill >>> >>> --===============7764108375702005125==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu May 4 18:00:39 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 19:00:21 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6755294746258536568==" --===============6755294746258536568== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 4 May 2023 at 18:49, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > > Unfortunately my local ISP doesn't run a server any more. :( I use Eternal September, via Thunderbird. Works very well. Password requirements are annoying, and the initial setup is very non-intuitive, but follow the documentation and it works. https://www.eternal-september.org/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6755294746258536568==-- From julf@julf.com Thu May 4 18:24:51 2023 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 20:24:52 +0200 Message-ID: <3bc4651b-64eb-1cf8-5aa7-5c7da162ca10@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2039467417977630233==" --===============2039467417977630233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks! Wow, they even provide UUCP batches! Julf On 04/05/2023 20:00, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 4 May 2023 at 18:49, Johan Helsingius via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Unfortunately my local ISP doesn't run a server any more. :( > > I use Eternal September, via Thunderbird. Works very well. > > Password requirements are annoying, and the initial setup is very > non-intuitive, but follow the documentation and it works. > > https://www.eternal-september.org/ > --===============2039467417977630233==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu May 4 20:08:35 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 16:08:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0779317421774725189==" --===============0779317421774725189== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/4/2023 1:41 PM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > Unfortunately my local ISP doesn't run a server any more. :( Doesn't have to be local.  I use a server in Berlin. > > Back in the 80's I used to run the USENET (and UUCP) > gateway for Finland. > > I used to run a server at the University where I worked.  Used to score very high in ratings.  Had a satellite feed as well as the terrestrial ones and moved a lot of news in my time.  Those were good times. bill --===============0779317421774725189==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Thu May 4 20:23:54 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 13:23:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3505583257917109520==" --===============3505583257917109520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 4 May 2023, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > It seems like all of the good USENET providers are subscription > services now. I'm not sure of any ISP that I've heard of who still > runs one. > You can get free access via http://www.eternal-september.org/, however they don't carry any binary groups. (no loss really) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============3505583257917109520==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 4 20:32:09 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 13:31:57 -0700 Message-ID: <4e9d590f-7f87-d289-54d0-2dcabf072e19@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9112205272054261937==" --===============9112205272054261937== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/4/23 13:23, geneb via cctalk wrote: > You can get free access via http://www.eternal-september.org/, however > they don't carry any binary groups. (no loss really) > That's useful to know--I haven't been on usenet in perhaps 40 years. --Chuck --===============9112205272054261937==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 4 20:46:32 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 13:46:24 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4e9d590f-7f87-d289-54d0-2dcabf072e19@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4378920481259832002==" --===============4378920481259832002== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 5/4/23 13:23, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> You can get free access via http://www.eternal-september.org/, however >> they don't carry any binary groups. (no loss really) On Thu, 4 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > That's useful to know--I haven't been on usenet in perhaps 40 years. That's OK. Any flamewars that you were reading are probably still active. --===============4378920481259832002==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu May 4 21:10:48 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 14:10:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0343532590402303010==" --===============0343532590402303010== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 1:46=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/4/23 13:23, geneb via cctalk wrote: > >> You can get free access via http://www.eternal-september.org/, however > >> they don't carry any binary groups. (no loss really) > > On Thu, 4 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > That's useful to know--I haven't been on usenet in perhaps 40 years. > > That's OK. > Any flamewars that you were reading are probably still active. > That's not only really funny, but probably true. Sellam --===============0343532590402303010==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 4 21:35:33 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 15:31:07 -0500 Message-ID: <4918a36a-abae-8299-2bb4-c48dc04bfa10@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55803324022F839B841E5A51ED6D9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0697603229401385920==" --===============0697603229401385920== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit True but I don't miss 53K bps analog POTS modem speeds. My Internet varies between 700Mbps and 950Mbps.  I don't miss analog modem days in the least.  There is no nostalgia there. I consider analog modems similar to out houses.  An interesting historical factoid but not something to be missed🤣.   Or even reminisce about. On 5/4/2023 3:08 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/4/2023 1:41 PM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: >> Unfortunately my local ISP doesn't run a server any more. :( > > > Doesn't have to be local.  I use a server in Berlin. > >> >> Back in the 80's I used to run the USENET (and UUCP) >> gateway for Finland. >> >> > > I used to run a server at the University where I worked.  Used to score > > very high in ratings.  Had a satellite feed as well as the terrestrial > ones > > and moved a lot of news in my time.  Those were good times. > > > bill > > > --===============0697603229401385920==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Thu May 4 21:43:38 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 14:43:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4918a36a-abae-8299-2bb4-c48dc04bfa10@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2666815684474701214==" --===============2666815684474701214== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 4 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > True but I don't miss 53K bps analog POTS modem speeds. > > My Internet varies between 700Mbps and 950Mbps.  I don't miss analog modem > days in the least.  There is no nostalgia there. > Best of both worlds: https://tempestfpga.com/retromodem/ :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============2666815684474701214==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri May 5 04:53:28 2023 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 04:53:22 +0000 Message-ID: <7wmt2jjs59.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2637356446183379187==" --===============2637356446183379187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit geneb wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> It seems like all of the good USENET providers are subscription >> services now. > You can get free access via http://www.eternal-september.org/ There's also news.dotsrc.org. (formerly sunsite.dk) --===============2637356446183379187==-- From julf@julf.com Fri May 5 07:30:59 2023 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 09:30:58 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7757371668555409888==" --===============7757371668555409888== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 04/05/2023 22:46, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Any flamewars that you were reading are probably still active. I guess the site is called eternal-september for a reason :) Julf --===============7757371668555409888==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 5 17:59:19 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 11:44:12 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4918a36a-abae-8299-2bb4-c48dc04bfa10@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7534153149282651073==" --===============7534153149282651073== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > True but I don't miss 53K bps analog POTS modem speeds. > > My Internet varies between 700Mbps and 950Mbps.  I don't miss analog > modem days in the least.  There is no nostalgia there. > How ever the people still use them. Fast internet is only good about 1? km from the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really high speed internet needed for? Ben. --===============7534153149282651073==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Fri May 5 18:23:05 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 13:22:46 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6911586332073520229==" --===============6911586332073520229== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Summoning my inner "grumpy old man" but the lack of (or evolved?) Web standards produce webpages congested with large advertisements, embedded videos, etc that aren't useful for the site. I don't know what the average size is these days but seems pretty ridiculous. That and the number of trackers, my system ends up sending data to 12 websites just to view something of moderate interest. Similar to unoptimized programming and games, I don't see why there are 20gb patches (I assume just uncompressed videos) but there are probably some honest answers like 3d models. It just feels like unnecessary bloat. On Fri, May 5, 2023, 12:59 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > > Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really high > speed internet needed for? > > --===============6911586332073520229==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri May 5 18:59:31 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 13:24:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2516461562404506899==" --===============2516461562404506899== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I beg to differ with you. I get download speeds over 100 Mbps regularly.  A lot of download speed is dependent on the site being downloaded from's upload speed. Also, having very high speed internet allows for streaming on multiple devices.  Like when my wife watching something on the Roku TV and I'm in a zoom meeting. On 5/5/2023 12:44 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> True but I don't miss 53K bps analog POTS modem speeds. >> >> My Internet varies between 700Mbps and 950Mbps.  I don't miss analog >> modem days in the least.  There is no nostalgia there. >> > How ever the people  still use them. Fast internet is only good about > 1? km from > the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really > high speed internet needed for? > Ben. > > > --===============2516461562404506899==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri May 5 19:03:14 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 12:02:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5696063821938181336==" --===============5696063821938181336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 10:59 AM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really high > speed internet needed for? > Ben. > I do development that involves pulling large SCS trees, lots of fetching of rpms and isos. It's nice to have the bandwidth. Also bandwidth != latency ("multiplayer games"). --===============5696063821938181336==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri May 5 20:06:56 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 16:06:39 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5000457942232890080==" --===============5000457942232890080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/5/2023 1:44 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> True but I don't miss 53K bps analog POTS modem speeds. >> >> My Internet varies between 700Mbps and 950Mbps.  I don't miss analog >> modem days in the least.  There is no nostalgia there. >> > How ever the people  still use them. Fast internet is only good about > 1? km from > the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really > high speed internet needed for? > Ben. > > Downloading the latest FreeBSD ISO in less than a week?   :-) bill --===============5000457942232890080==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri May 5 20:22:17 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 13:22:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55808628DB97D1D3E7C1B209ED729=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3775553873556406822==" --===============3775553873556406822== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 1:06 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Downloading the latest FreeBSD ISO in less than a week? :-) > I took the question as more "why do you need a gigabit"? Comcast had kept slowly bumping us up over the term of several contracts, from 600mbit to 1200mbit and as I said, I use the speed mostly for work. We just cut the knot and got rid of cable TV but I'm pretty sure Netflix says one 4K stream requires less than 25mbit/sec. --===============3775553873556406822==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri May 5 20:26:35 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 16:26:12 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2814187618607016922==" --===============2814187618607016922== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No doubt many folks do have a need for speed but FWIW I get by fine with 6 Mbps D/L speed, streaming Youtube and local cable channels, browsing the web, email & fora, etc.; I've also got a fall-back 56K toll-free dial-up option which is still good for email and messaging when broadband is not available. Occasionally a bit more speed would be nice when downloading a particularly large file, but that's a good excuse to get up & stretch my legs, make a coffee or tea, or just sit outside getting some sun and fresh air. The best part is that together with my cell phone it only costs me C$ 50/mo. m On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 3:03=E2=80=AFPM Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 10:59=E2=80=AFAM ben via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really high > > speed internet needed for? > > Ben. > > > > I do development that involves pulling large SCS trees, lots of fetching of > rpms and isos. It's nice to have the bandwidth. > > Also bandwidth !=3D latency ("multiplayer games"). > --===============2814187618607016922==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 5 20:31:37 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 14:31:31 -0600 Message-ID: <4caafda1-1d07-22c4-baa5-e70dbe4c438f@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6879486476949703833==" --===============6879486476949703833== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-05-05 1:02 p.m., Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 10:59 AM ben via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really high >> speed internet needed for? >> Ben. >> > > I do development that involves pulling large SCS trees, lots of fetching of > rpms and isos. It's nice to have the bandwidth. > > Also bandwidth != latency ("multiplayer games"). True, until the last few years, I was on dial up speeds. Nice to have bandwidth for all UPDATES OS's think you need. The only really big download I have done for all the old DR WHO episodes. Now if I could find that link again. Ben. tagline "Don't you love FTL download speeds" --===============6879486476949703833==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 5 20:33:57 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 14:33:52 -0600 Message-ID: <56f54552-5af9-e1f2-5d5b-dd8b6a74769c@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55808628DB97D1D3E7C1B209ED729=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4374233821977882400==" --===============4374233821977882400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-05-05 2:06 p.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/5/2023 1:44 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>> True but I don't miss 53K bps analog POTS modem speeds. >>> >>> My Internet varies between 700Mbps and 950Mbps.  I don't miss analog >>> modem days in the least.  There is no nostalgia there. >>> >> How ever the people  still use them. Fast internet is only good about >> 1? km from >> the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really >> high speed internet needed for? >> Ben. >> >> > Downloading the latest FreeBSD ISO in less than a week?   :-) > > > bill > > REAL BDS'S COME ON MAGNETIC TAPE. BEN @ 110 BAUD. --===============4374233821977882400==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri May 5 20:35:49 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 16:35:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7441110538510605584==" --===============7441110538510605584== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The local cable channels here are served over ethernet and that works fine for me at 6 Mbps, with only a very occasional hiccup. m On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 4:22=E2=80=AFPM Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 1:06=E2=80=AFPM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Downloading the latest FreeBSD ISO in less than a week? :-) > > > > I took the question as more "why do you need a gigabit"? > > Comcast had kept slowly bumping us up over the term of several contracts, > from 600mbit to 1200mbit and as I said, I use the speed mostly for work. > > We just cut the knot and got rid of cable TV but I'm pretty sure Netflix > says one 4K stream requires less than 25mbit/sec. > --===============7441110538510605584==-- From web@loomcom.com Fri May 5 20:40:54 2023 From: Seth Morabito To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 13:30:33 -0700 Message-ID: <56f29e1d-f9dc-4852-8f21-509194c4afdc@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3704607881842775947==" --===============3704607881842775947== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 5, 2023, at 10:44 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > How ever the people still use them. Fast internet is only good about 1?=20 > km from > the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really high=20 > speed internet needed for? > Ben. When I had 1200 baud I wanted 2400. When I had 2400 baud I wanted 9600. When = I had 9600 I wanted 14.4, then 56K, then I wanted a leased line, then I wante= d a T1 but had to settle for ADSL. When I had ADSL I wanted SDSL, when I had = SDSL I wanted 10 Mbit, then 25 Mbit. A few years back when Comcast screwed me= over I got 100Mbit municipal fiber to the house, then upgraded to symmetric = gigabit a while later. I'll always take more, and I'm not ashamed of it! I wo= rk from home, it's nice to know I can be on a video meeting with 15 people an= d still download an ISO image in a few seconds while someone else in the hous= e games or watches videos. -Seth --=20 Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/ --===============3704607881842775947==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri May 5 20:41:13 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 21:40:56 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6769854408387875370==" --===============6769854408387875370== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 5 May 2023 at 21:26, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > No doubt many folks do have a need for speed but FWIW I get by fine with 6 > Mbps D/L speed, streaming Youtube and local cable channels, browsing the > web, email & fora, etc.; ... wow. I had 500Mb/s for ~CzK 1000/mth in Prague. Ballpark ₤30. Here in the Isle of Man I'm on 100Mb/s and it's a moderate pain. But for my 1st 2 months here, I had only 16Mb/s at my mum's, and it was horrible. > I've also got a fall-back 56K toll-free dial-up > option which is still good for email and messaging when broadband is not > available. I kept a POTS modem around for years but after 2002 or so, it just didn't seem worth it. Even from 512kb/s, dropping an order of magnitude felt like not being online at all. By the time I was on a few megabits/sec I mothballed the dialup device. I haven't had a landline since 2014 now. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6769854408387875370==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Fri May 5 20:45:15 2023 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 13:44:57 -0700 Message-ID: <1F1D97DE-7CBD-4E85-A8BB-8B65083C39BF@eschatologist.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1418601716134346919==" --===============1418601716134346919== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On May 4, 2023, at 10:51 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > It seems like all of the good USENET providers are subscription > services now. I'm not sure of any ISP that I've heard of who still > runs one. What about eternal-september.org? -- Chris --===============1418601716134346919==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri May 5 20:48:37 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 13:48:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4caafda1-1d07-22c4-baa5-e70dbe4c438f@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3069220106714797715==" --===============3069220106714797715== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 1:31=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk wrote: > > True, until the last few years, I was on dial up speeds. > I think you may be an outlier ;-) --===============3069220106714797715==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri May 5 20:51:16 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 16:50:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0818406743006674964==" --===============0818406743006674964== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Toll-free dial-up and the landline were very handy at my cottage, where the only moderately high-speed option was expensive satellite or microwave access. I also worked from home at the cottage; fortunately it only involved text-only remote access which also worked remarkably well at 56K; large file transfers (off-line backups etc.) ran at night. m On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 4:41=E2=80=AFPM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 5 May 2023 at 21:26, Mike Stein via cctalk > wrote: > > > > No doubt many folks do have a need for speed but FWIW I get by fine with > 6 > > Mbps D/L speed, streaming Youtube and local cable channels, browsing the > > web, email & fora, etc.; > > ... wow. > > I had 500Mb/s for ~CzK 1000/mth in Prague. Ballpark =E2=82=A430. > > Here in the Isle of Man I'm on 100Mb/s and it's a moderate pain. But > for my 1st 2 months here, I had only 16Mb/s at my mum's, and it was > horrible. > > > > I've also got a fall-back 56K toll-free dial-up > > option which is still good for email and messaging when broadband is not > > available. > > I kept a POTS modem around for years but after 2002 or so, it just > didn't seem worth it. Even from 512kb/s, dropping an order of > magnitude felt like not being online at all. By the time I was on a > few megabits/sec I mothballed the dialup device. > > I haven't had a landline since 2014 now. > > > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > --===============0818406743006674964==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri May 5 20:56:06 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 16:55:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <56f54552-5af9-e1f2-5d5b-dd8b6a74769c@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0660728614822255544==" --===============0660728614822255544== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/5/2023 4:33 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-05-05 2:06 p.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 5/5/2023 1:44 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>>> True but I don't miss 53K bps analog POTS modem speeds. >>>> >>>> My Internet varies between 700Mbps and 950Mbps.  I don't miss >>>> analog modem days in the least.  There is no nostalgia there. >>>> >>> How ever the people  still use them. Fast internet is only good >>> about 1? km from >>> the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really >>> high speed internet needed for? >>> Ben. >>> >>> >> Downloading the latest FreeBSD ISO in less than a week?   :-) >> >> >> bill >> >> > REAL BDS'S COME ON MAGNETIC TAPE. > BEN @ 110 BAUD. > I used to have a BSD Distro.  I think it was actually two tapes. But I also think I lost it during one of my moves.  I do still have a 9-track drive to read one if I ever have to, though.  :-) bill --===============0660728614822255544==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri May 5 21:03:48 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 17:03:24 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0224398074476093468==" --===============0224398074476093468== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think you might be surprised by how many people still have to use dial-up; at my cottage there is no cable service and high-speed fibre is finally just being installed this year as the area becomes more populous. Cell coverage is spotty, so a local hotspot is not always available or reliable and also not very fast, and satellite/microwave access is not affordable for everyone. m On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 4:48=E2=80=AFPM Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 1:31=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > True, until the last few years, I was on dial up speeds. > > > > I think you may be an outlier ;-) > --===============0224398074476093468==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri May 5 21:12:42 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 14:12:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0184718238314241278==" --===============0184718238314241278== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 2:03=E2=80=AFPM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > I think you might be surprised by how many people still have to use > dial-up; > obviously it still exists, a 1 sec Google search shows that: https://www.statista.com/statistics/185532/us-household-dial-up-internet-conn= ection-usage-by-state-2009/ but sub 1% nation wide is an outlier to me. your statistics may vary ;-) --===============0184718238314241278==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Fri May 5 21:13:18 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 17:13:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5171871325863306278==" --===============5171871325863306278== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 5 May 2023 at 16:41, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 5 May 2023 at 21:26, Mike Stein via cctalk > wrote: > > > > No doubt many folks do have a need for speed but FWIW I get by fine with > 6 > > Mbps D/L speed, streaming Youtube and local cable channels, browsing the > > web, email & fora, etc.; > > ... wow. > > I had 500Mb/s for ~CzK 1000/mth in Prague. Ballpark ₤30. > > Here in the Isle of Man I'm on 100Mb/s and it's a moderate pain. But > for my 1st 2 months here, I had only 16Mb/s at my mum's, and it was > horrible. > > I think it's generally a case of proximity to a population center. In a city in the US you can generally get very high speeds at reasonable cost, at least a couple of hundred mbit/s, but that decreases almost exponentially as you move farther out. I live in an area that I wouldn't classify as completely rural but it's not exactly suburban either and my options are limited to high prices for cable internet - I have 30 mbit/s down but only 5 mbit/s up for $40/mo, and that's essentially at cost because my provider is a cooperative. The commercial offerings are even worse. -Henry --===============5171871325863306278==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 5 22:56:13 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 15:55:58 -0700 Message-ID: <7418a2b4-b349-9d84-666f-2614484ea19f@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2502410675590602091==" --===============2502410675590602091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When we moved to this house 33 years ago, there was no cable (still isn't available), and wired POTS was it. About 12 wire miles from the CO, so 56K was just a dream. Maybe 15 years ago, I was approached by the local telco because they wanted to replaced deteriorating buried copper with fiber and needed some land for a terminal. I sold them about 300 sq. ft. that I didn't even know that I owned. They poured a concrete pad and set up some boxes on it. Initially, connection was 5 Mbps; a few years ago, I was offered 20 for a lifetime rate of USD$40/month. It was gradually bumped up to about 55 Mbps. It works for me--if I wanted to pay more, I could get 100. This is a rural area. If I go a half-mile up the road, the people there are still 12-13 wire miles from the CO with no broadband at all. If that weren't enough, cell coverage there is maybe a bar-and-a-half of 2G. Some use satellite, but during windy or wet weather, I understand that their speed falls to nearly worthless. Lots of big evergreen (Doug-fir and Ponderosa pine) trees here to lay waste to comms. A utility from a county south of here has been stringing fiber along the road, which has promise--but no estimates of when connectivity will be available. People evidently don't recall the bad old days of POTS where calls outside of your calling area was billed as long-distance and reception was noisy and slow. Back then, a leased line connected to a 208 modem would run you about 5 kilobucks/month for 4800 bps, sync. --Chuck --===============2502410675590602091==-- From bear@typewritten.org Fri May 5 23:36:47 2023 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 16:35:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7418a2b4-b349-9d84-666f-2614484ea19f@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0150755039156194567==" --===============0150755039156194567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 5, 2023, at 3:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > People evidently don't recall the bad old days of POTS where calls > outside of your calling area was billed as long-distance and reception > was noisy and slow. Back then, a leased line connected to a 208 modem > would run you about 5 kilobucks/month for 4800 bps, sync. And based on some of the complaints I=E2=80=99ve been reading lately from oth= er list members, I feel compelled to point out that all kinds of Real Work oc= curred within such constraints nonetheless, for decades, all over the world. ok bear. --===============0150755039156194567==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 6 00:21:50 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 18:21:44 -0600 Message-ID: <9c57ac95-6555-9505-dc4f-1372511f7f06@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6135953213519111550==" --===============6135953213519111550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-05-05 2:48 p.m., Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 1:31=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> >> True, until the last few years, I was on dial up speeds. >> >=20 > I think you may be an outlier ;-) You know a MOOSE could just walk and read this. 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=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A2=80=E2=A0=9C=E2=A0=81=E2=A0=80=E2=A1=8F=E2=A0=80=E2=A0= =80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A3=B0=E2=A3=AF=E2=A3=A4= =E2=A3=BD=E2=A0=83=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A2=A0=E2=A3=AF=E2=A3=AE=E2= =A3=BC=E2=A0=8F=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A2=80=E2=A3=BD=E2=A3=A5=E2=A0= =BC=E2=A1=87=E2=A0=80 =E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2= =A2=80=E2=A1=B4=E2=A3=8F=E2=A3=80=E2=A1=B4=E2=A0=9F=E2=A0=83=E2=A0=80=E2=A0= =80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=9B=E2=A0=9A=E2=A0=92= =E2=A0=89=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2= =A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=98=E2=A0=9B=E2=A0=93=E2=A0= =9A=E2=A0=81=E2=A0=80 =E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2= =A0=88=E2=A3=9B=E2=A3=97=E2=A2=9A=E2=A0=83=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0= =80=E2=A0=80 The real catch with the internet was getting a local provider that did not charge a arm and a leg for any service. When BBS's where around, long distance was still $1.00 a minute. Ben. =E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2= =A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0= =80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80=E2=A0=80= =E2=A0=80 --===============6135953213519111550==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 6 00:24:09 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 18:24:03 -0600 Message-ID: <989918bc-9671-94a1-3b40-4c162e6e6de2@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <68030709-9409-9cd6-c3af-a6f793851bd0@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5059491491108763657==" --===============5059491491108763657== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-05-05 2:57 p.m., Mike Katz wrote: > And for some more nostalgia: > > 4.5MB of punch cards (approx. 334 lbs): > That is old, a full sized skirt.:) --===============5059491491108763657==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat May 6 02:39:16 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 19:39:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <989918bc-9671-94a1-3b40-4c162e6e6de2@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3331261985705719521==" --===============3331261985705719521== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do remember the bad old days, when even a leased line was insufficiently fast or reliable to send a quantity of data. I recall many times taking the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with my Samsonite carry-on case and not so much as a toothbrush. On arrival, turn the contents of the case over to someone waiting at the gate, and catch the next flight home with an empty case. My case, which I still have, comfortably accommodates six 10.5" reels of tape. I remember flying on an USAF general's plane with several 844 disk packs. One time, I forgot my B-area badge, so the general gave me his. Nobody saluted, however. --Chuck --===============3331261985705719521==-- From shumaker@att.net Sat May 6 03:59:52 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 20:59:42 -0700 Message-ID: <57184957-0bcc-e1fa-6490-f4c66e79f66f@att.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5867954390147785190==" --===============5867954390147785190== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There used to be a running joke in the test center on Kwajalein Atoll about the C141 full of mission tapes having a higher bit rate than the undersea cable connecting us to the mainland. Steve On 5/5/23 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I do remember the bad old days, when even a leased line was > insufficiently fast or reliable to send a quantity of data. I recall > many times taking the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with my Samsonite > carry-on case and not so much as a toothbrush. On arrival, turn the > contents of the case over to someone waiting at the gate, and catch the > next flight home with an empty case. > > My case, which I still have, comfortably accommodates six 10.5" reels of > tape. > > I remember flying on an USAF general's plane with several 844 disk > packs. One time, I forgot my B-area badge, so the general gave me his. > Nobody saluted, however. > > --Chuck > > --===============5867954390147785190==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat May 6 04:26:14 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 21:26:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <57184957-0bcc-e1fa-6490-f4c66e79f66f@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6666303459535548053==" --===============6666303459535548053== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The iconic quote was Tannenbaum's "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway." On Fri, 5 May 2023, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > There used to be a running joke in the test center on Kwajalein Atoll about > the C141 full of mission tapes having a higher bit rate than the undersea > cable connecting us to the mainland. > > Steve --===============6666303459535548053==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 6 04:38:07 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 22:38:00 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0888102638699367099==" --===============0888102638699367099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-05-05 8:39 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I do remember the bad old days, when even a leased line was > insufficiently fast or reliable to send a quantity of data. I recall > many times taking the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with my Samsonite > carry-on case and not so much as a toothbrush. On arrival, turn the > contents of the case over to someone waiting at the gate, and catch the > next flight home with an empty case. > > My case, which I still have, comfortably accommodates six 10.5" reels of > tape. > > I remember flying on an USAF general's plane with several 844 disk > packs. One time, I forgot my B-area badge, so the general gave me his. > Nobody saluted, however. > > --Chuck > > And us POOR people get the Station Wagon. I remember them as a kid, but they have been replaced by king cabs. Ben. --===============0888102638699367099==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat May 6 06:06:35 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 23:06:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8262906094415224648==" --===============8262906094415224648== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AT&T recently ran a fiber line along the boulevard adjacent to the farm. The hold-up in ordering service is that they want a state-issued identification, which I don't have, and don't want to have. Their most incredibly obnoxiously stupid reason for this is (and I kid you not) "you will have our modem". Oh, I'm sorry, are you worried about your stupid $15 piece of plastic from China? No, it's not that, it's something sinister, and the rep is either told to give a stupid answer or truly believes the stupid answer they were told to give. I can easily get around the issue, but then, I've really always hated AT&T, because Ma Bell birthed Big Brother, and I'm sure that's the real reason they want to know who is connecting up to their service. I invested much time and trouble over the years getting away from them, only to eventually end up back under AT&T after they gobbled up every provider I signed up with to get away from them. This latest episode reminds me why I always tried to stay away from that garbage corporation. That being said, it's really hard to justify sticking with my shitty cellphone service as my internet gateway when I'm being tempted with cheap 300Mpbs bandwidth. The 5G "upgrade" was just a bait & switch: reception is no better than with the old 4G/LTE service, and dropouts as just as frequent. All these corporations are damned dirty shit-eating liars. This thread is thoroughly off-topic, but since we're here, I needed to vent. Sellam On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 9:38=E2=80=AFPM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-05-05 8:39 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I do remember the bad old days, when even a leased line was > > insufficiently fast or reliable to send a quantity of data. I recall > > many times taking the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with my Samsonite > > carry-on case and not so much as a toothbrush. On arrival, turn the > > contents of the case over to someone waiting at the gate, and catch the > > next flight home with an empty case. > > > > My case, which I still have, comfortably accommodates six 10.5" reels of > > tape. > > > > I remember flying on an USAF general's plane with several 844 disk > > packs. One time, I forgot my B-area badge, so the general gave me his. > > Nobody saluted, however. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > And us POOR people get the Station Wagon. I remember them as a kid, > but they have been replaced by king cabs. Ben. > > --===============8262906094415224648==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sat May 6 15:11:15 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 15:57:20 -0500 Message-ID: <68030709-9409-9cd6-c3af-a6f793851bd0@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <56f54552-5af9-e1f2-5d5b-dd8b6a74769c@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3510600252071911404==" --===============3510600252071911404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/5/2023 3:33 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-05-05 2:06 p.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 5/5/2023 1:44 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>>> True but I don't miss 53K bps analog POTS modem speeds. >>>> >>>> My Internet varies between 700Mbps and 950Mbps.  I don't miss >>>> analog modem days in the least.  There is no nostalgia there. >>>> >>> How ever the people  still use them. Fast internet is only good >>> about 1? km from >>> the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really >>> high speed internet needed for? >>> Ben. >>> >>> >> Downloading the latest FreeBSD ISO in less than a week?   :-) >> >> >> bill >> >> > REAL BDS'S COME ON MAGNETIC TAPE. > BEN @ 110 BAUD. > Wow, magnetic tape, how modern.  What about paper tape or punch cards (Holerith if you are old enough to remember that name). Also if we are talking about download speeds and protocols what about Carrier Pigeon Internet Protocol (CPIP or IPoCP).  This encompasses RFC-1149 & amended by  RFC-2549.  A carrier pigeon carrying a 1TB USB memory stick and flying at 40MPH (2/3's of it's maximum speed) for 40 miles would yield a data rate of 305,419,896 bps.  Not bad for analog🤣 And for some more nostalgia: 4.5MB of punch cards (approx. 334 lbs): --===============3510600252071911404==-- From chd@chdickman.com Sun May 7 00:59:28 2023 From: Charles Dickman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics Date: Sat, 06 May 2023 20:59:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1069374813850262719==" --===============1069374813850262719== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I built such a thing several years ago. (I would share the schematics, but eschema seems to have changed file formats.) I used a MAX232 for the RS232 side. There are lots of variations on that 5V supply RS232 converter that provide "real" RS232 levels. For the current loop side I referenced DEC schematics with the same function. There are lots of variations. KL8-JA has some nice old school stuff with some common mode rejection. KL8-E on the other hand is pretty minimalist. DL11-W has probably the last of the current loop designs and has opto-couplers for isolation. If you need to provide the current loop source, there are some Teletype schematics that include the loop current sources. Usually they are pretty primitive and include rectifiers directly connected to line voltage. Chuck On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 5:29=E2=80=AFPM Martin Bishop via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Led Driver ICs may merit consideration, e.g. > https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/led-driver-ics/7377975 for 20 mA. > However, they usu have a not insignificant voltage drop (a few Volts). I > have used lots of 10 mA versions for sensing switch / relay closures, > typically with an ACPL-217 as sense element. And, these days, the catalogs > are replete with LED drivers. > > The classic TLR solution, e.g. 1.25 V drop with an LM317, is written up by > Horrowitz and Hill as Current Sources - Three terminal regulator as current > source [3rd Edn $9.3.14 A, pp620] and many data sheets / ANs. The LED > drivers seem to work just as well, 10+ years ago the LM317 was my standard > design. > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: 02 May 2023 14:06 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Tony Duell > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics > > On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 1:34=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > It seems surprisingly hard to find that, though this > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/rs-232-to-current-loop-interface.= 47841/ > is close. > > > > Conceptually it's really easy. The main tricky part, certainly if > you're driving a mechanical terminal like a Teletype, is the current > source. You need something that can drive 20 mA into an inductive load. > The classic answer was to use a fairly high voltage with a big series > resistor so the inductive impedance is much less than the resistance. A > current regulator would be a modern replacement. Also, for the case of the > inductive load, you'd need a shunt diode across the switch to absorb the > voltage spike from the inductor when the current is switched off, otherwise > the switching transistor will be quickly destroyed. > > > The common version of the Model 33 Teletype with a current loop interface > [1] has a bit of electronics inside. A little driver PCB with a couple of > transistors on it, a power transformer for it and so on. The result is that > although the interface is 20mA or 60mA current loop you are not driving the > receive magnet directly and there are no high voltage spikes at the > interface terminals. > > [1] This is by far the most common version of the Model 33 in the UK. > > If you do have to drive the solenoid directly then (as you're in the > UK) look out for the RSGB [2] Teleprinter Handbook. Although, not > surprisingly, this is biased towards amateur radio RTTY operation, it has a > lot of information on mechanical teleprinters, how to drive them (with > circuit diagrams) and so on. > > [2] Radio Society of Great Britain. Basically our equivalent of the ARRL. > > -tony > --===============1069374813850262719==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sun May 7 08:54:12 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 09:54:06 +0100 Message-ID: <00b001d980c1$7b44cc10$71ce6430$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <00e701d97cc6$6d3a5ad0$47af1070$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5664049110186893317==" --===============5664049110186893317== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The comments about the tolerance of the 7812 were right, it doesn=E2=80=99t a= ppear to be an issue with the replacement 7812 regulator because when I tried= using the bench PSU to feed exactly 12V to the circuit from the output of th= e 7812 the comparator still gave the wrong result. It was still wrong if I ap= plied only 11V =20 I then looked at the value of Vz on the good and bad PSUs, when applying 12V = to the 7812 output. That was 5.4V in both the good and bad PSUs. Where I saw = a difference was on the -12V output, it was +0.4V on the good PSU and 0.56V o= n the bad one (the voltage varied so this was an average). I checked the volt= age drop across the current sense resistor. It is 0.01V on the good PSU and 0= .08V on the bad PSU, which would explain the higher positive voltage on the -= 12V output and the comparator being turned on. =20 I am wondering if there could be a problem on the -12V output circuit (PSU Sh= eet 3). I am struggling to understand the purpose of the two transistors and = the Zener diode there, but maybe one of them should be switched on and isn=E2= =80=99t. I am also unsure now as to which diode is doing the rectification (t= o -12V). Someone said it was the one attached to pin 6 of the transformer, bu= t is that right? Isn=E2=80=99t it the Zener diode half way across the page? =20 Regards =20 Rob =20 From: Rob Jarratt =20 Sent: 02 May 2023 08:19 To: 'Mattis Lind' ; rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; 'General Dis= cussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault =20 That=E2=80=99s a good idea, I will try that =20 From: Mattis Lind < mattislind(a)gmail.com>=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2023 7:55 AM To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On= -Topic and Off-Topic Posts < cctalk(a)classi= ccmp.org> Cc: Rob Jarratt < robert.jarratt(a)ntl= world.com> Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault =20 =20 =20 Not quite sure what you mean here. I had advice from a friend to bench test the control module by providing 14V to the input of the 7812. On the good PSU I can see the PWM operate, on the bad one the PWM is shutdown. =20 And what happens if you feed in exactly 12 V on the output of the 7812? Would= the PWM work then? By using a lab supply you could check if the circuit is s= ensitive to variation in the 12V supply. =20 =20 /Mattis =20 Regards Rob --===============5664049110186893317==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Sun May 7 10:32:56 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 10:33:41 +0100 Message-ID: <01SR2VRW4WFE8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <00b001d980c1$7b44cc10$71ce6430$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5812407782597938898==" --===============5812407782597938898== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > The comments about the tolerance of the 7812 were right, it doesn=E2=80=99t > appear to be an issue with the replacement 7812 regulator because when > I tried using the bench PSU to feed exactly 12V to the circuit from the > output of the 7812 the comparator still gave the wrong result. It was > still wrong if I applied only 11V > What do you mean by "gave the wrong result"? If the power supply to the comparator is "reasonable" and the comparator's output does not reflect what is happening at it's inputs, the comparator is faulty. If the comparator is giving the "wrong result" because it's inputs are telling it to, it is behaving correctly. With no mains supply connected and a positive startup voltage applied to Vstart and a negative startup voltage applied to the -12V line via a 2k7 resistor, you could try shorting the inputs of the comparator together and see whether this changes the comparator's output. I want to emphasise doing this without power going to the mains rectifier feeding the chopper so that if there is real overload, the magic smoke will not be released. If the output if the comparator is then "correct" and this output being "wrong" was the source of the PSU not working, then the PWM should start up like it does in the good power supply. This would confirm that there is a problem in the components providing and/or mmonitoring the -12V line. If the PWM does not start up, this suggests the problem is elsewhere. > > I then looked at the value of Vz on the good and bad PSUs, when applying > 12V to the 7812 output. That was 5.4V in both the good and bad PSUs. Where > I saw a difference was on the -12V output, it was +0.4V on the good PSU > and 0.56V on the bad one (the voltage varied so this was an average). I > checked the voltage drop across the current sense resistor. It is 0.01V > on the good PSU and 0.08V on the bad PSU, which would explain the higher > positive voltage on the -12V output and the comparator being turned on. > >=20 > > I am wondering if there could be a problem on the -12V output circuit > (PSU Sheet 3). I am struggling to understand the purpose of the two > transistors and the Zener diode there, but maybe one of them should be > switched on and isn=E2=80=99t. I am also unsure now as to which diode is do= ing > the rectification (to -12V). Someone said it was the one attached to > pin 6 of the transformer, but is that right? Isn=E2=80=99t it the Zener dio= de > half way across the page? > The TIP121 darlington transistor is a shunt regulator for the -12V line. The voltage at the base of the MPSA55 transistor varies with the -12V line because it is connected to the -12V line via the potential divider formed by the 1k24 and 1k10 resistors. If the voltage on the -12V line increases in the negative direction, the voltage at the base of the MPSA55 increases in proportion to it via the potential divider. It's emitter voltage is fixed by the zener diode so the MPSA55 is turned on more and it pulls more current through the base of the TIP121 which results in the TIP121 conducting more and pulling the -12V line down closer to it's correct voltage. The opposite happens if the -12V goes lower than it should be, the TIP121 is turned on less and this allows the -12V line to increase negatively to it's correct value. None of this circuitry should be doing very much until the chopper transformer is producing the source for the -12V line. I suppose if the TIP121 is sborted or the zener diode is shorted, it could be causing problems, however, from the test results etc we have=20 been given so far, I am not completely convinced there is a problem=20 with the -12V line. If a negative startup voltage is applied to the -12V line as well as a positive voltage to Vstart to better simultate startup conditions, it may reveal more about what is happening with the -12V line. It might then be possible to compare the voltages across the zener diodes in the working power supply and the non-working power supply for example. Regards, Peter. =20 > > Regards >=20 > =20 >=20 > Rob >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: Rob Jarratt =20 > Sent: 02 May 2023 08:19 > To: 'Mattis Lind' ; rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; 'General D= iscussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > =20 >=20 > That=E2=80=99s a good idea, I will try that >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: Mattis Lind < mattislind(a)gmail.com>= =20 > Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2023 7:55 AM > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: = On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < cctalk(a)clas= siccmp.org> > Cc: Rob Jarratt < robert.jarratt(a)n= tlworld.com> > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Not quite sure what you mean here. I had advice from a friend to bench test > the control module by providing 14V to the input of the 7812. On the good > PSU I can see the PWM operate, on the bad one the PWM is shutdown. >=20 > =20 >=20 > And what happens if you feed in exactly 12 V on the output of the 7812? Wou= ld the PWM work then? By using a lab supply you could check if the circuit is= sensitive to variation in the 12V supply. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > /Mattis >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > Regards >=20 > Rob >=20 >=20 --===============5812407782597938898==-- From david@kdbarto.org Sun May 7 15:20:23 2023 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 08:20:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <57184957-0bcc-e1fa-6490-f4c66e79f66f@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4310677689340924685==" --===============4310677689340924685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe it was Henry Spenser at a USENIX conference that said =E2=80=9CNeve= r underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with mag tape=E2=80= =9D. David > On May 5, 2023, at 8:59 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >=20 > There used to be a running joke in the test center on Kwajalein Atoll about= the C141 full of mission tapes having a higher bit rate than the undersea ca= ble connecting us to the mainland. >=20 > Steve >=20 > On 5/5/23 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I do remember the bad old days, when even a leased line was >> insufficiently fast or reliable to send a quantity of data. I recall >> many times taking the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with my Samsonite >> carry-on case and not so much as a toothbrush. On arrival, turn the >> contents of the case over to someone waiting at the gate, and catch the >> next flight home with an empty case. >>=20 >> My case, which I still have, comfortably accommodates six 10.5" reels of >> tape. >>=20 >> I remember flying on an USAF general's plane with several 844 disk >> packs. One time, I forgot my B-area badge, so the general gave me his. >> Nobody saluted, however. >>=20 >> --Chuck >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --===============4310677689340924685==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Sun May 7 15:35:57 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 11:35:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7091735949556357380==" --===============7091735949556357380== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck, Did you at least get a bag peanuts on the flight? Ken On Sun, May 7, 2023 at 11:20 AM David Barto via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I believe it was Henry Spenser at a USENIX conference that said “Never > underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with mag tape”. > > David > > > > On May 5, 2023, at 8:59 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > There used to be a running joke in the test center on Kwajalein Atoll > about the C141 full of mission tapes having a higher bit rate than the > undersea cable connecting us to the mainland. > > > > Steve > > > > On 5/5/23 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I do remember the bad old days, when even a leased line was > >> insufficiently fast or reliable to send a quantity of data. I recall > >> many times taking the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with my Samsonite > >> carry-on case and not so much as a toothbrush. On arrival, turn the > >> contents of the case over to someone waiting at the gate, and catch the > >> next flight home with an empty case. > >> > >> My case, which I still have, comfortably accommodates six 10.5" reels of > >> tape. > >> > >> I remember flying on an USAF general's plane with several 844 disk > >> packs. One time, I forgot my B-area badge, so the general gave me his. > >> Nobody saluted, however. > >> > >> --Chuck > >> > >> > > > > -- End of line JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey --===============7091735949556357380==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun May 7 16:50:35 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 09:50:24 -0700 Message-ID: <8ce11aa3-078e-0e8d-d01a-77970416c811@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8140502226355250175==" --===============8140502226355250175== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/7/23 08:35, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, > > Did you at least get a bag peanuts on the flight? > It was always a dinner flight, so I had my choice of chicken or mystery meat (the flight attendants called it that). If I was able to make reservations, I usually specified the kosher meal--better than warmed over TV dinners. --Chuck --===============8140502226355250175==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Sun May 7 18:59:39 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 11:58:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8ce11aa3-078e-0e8d-d01a-77970416c811@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3114623028303706437==" --===============3114623028303706437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did you ever choose the mystery meal? Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On May 7, 2023, at 9:50 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 5/7/23 08:35, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: >> Chuck, >>=20 >> Did you at least get a bag peanuts on the flight? >>=20 >=20 > It was always a dinner flight, so I had my choice of chicken or mystery > meat (the flight attendants called it that). If I was able to make > reservations, I usually specified the kosher meal--better than warmed > over TV dinners. >=20 > --Chuck >=20 >=20 --===============3114623028303706437==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun May 7 19:03:28 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 19:03:20 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SR2VRW4WFE8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6441137774517781908==" --===============6441137774517781908== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quick comment w/o looking at the schematic yet, is that zeners don=E2=80=99t = do rectification, but do do regulation. If you suspect bad a bad rectifier yo= u can easily check with a scope.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On May 7, 2023, at 03:33, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>=20 >> The comments about the tolerance of the 7812 were right, it doesn=E2=80=99t >> appear to be an issue with the replacement 7812 regulator because when >> I tried using the bench PSU to feed exactly 12V to the circuit from the >> output of the 7812 the comparator still gave the wrong result. It was >> still wrong if I applied only 11V >>=20 >=20 > What do you mean by "gave the wrong result"? If the power supply to the > comparator is "reasonable" and the comparator's output does not reflect > what is happening at it's inputs, the comparator is faulty. >=20 > If the comparator is giving the "wrong result" because it's inputs > are telling it to, it is behaving correctly. >=20 > With no mains supply connected and a positive startup voltage applied > to Vstart and a negative startup voltage applied to the -12V line via > a 2k7 resistor, you could try shorting the inputs of the comparator > together and see whether this changes the comparator's output. I want > to emphasise doing this without power going to the mains rectifier > feeding the chopper so that if there is real overload, the magic smoke > will not be released. >=20 > If the output if the comparator is then "correct" and this output being > "wrong" was the source of the PSU not working, then the PWM should start > up like it does in the good power supply. This would confirm that there > is a problem in the components providing and/or mmonitoring the -12V line. > If the PWM does not start up, this suggests the problem is elsewhere. >=20 >>=20 >> I then looked at the value of Vz on the good and bad PSUs, when applying >> 12V to the 7812 output. That was 5.4V in both the good and bad PSUs. Where >> I saw a difference was on the -12V output, it was +0.4V on the good PSU >> and 0.56V on the bad one (the voltage varied so this was an average). I >> checked the voltage drop across the current sense resistor. It is 0.01V >> on the good PSU and 0.08V on the bad PSU, which would explain the higher >> positive voltage on the -12V output and the comparator being turned on. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> I am wondering if there could be a problem on the -12V output circuit >> (PSU Sheet 3). I am struggling to understand the purpose of the two >> transistors and the Zener diode there, but maybe one of them should be >> switched on and isn=E2=80=99t. I am also unsure now as to which diode is d= oing >> the rectification (to -12V). Someone said it was the one attached to >> pin 6 of the transformer, but is that right? Isn=E2=80=99t it the Zener di= ode >> half way across the page? >>=20 >=20 > The TIP121 darlington transistor is a shunt regulator for the -12V line. > The voltage at the base of the MPSA55 transistor varies with the -12V line > because it is connected to the -12V line via the potential divider formed by > the 1k24 and 1k10 resistors. If the voltage on the -12V line increases > in the negative direction, the voltage at the base of the MPSA55 increases > in proportion to it via the potential divider. It's emitter voltage is > fixed by the zener diode so the MPSA55 is turned on more and it pulls more > current through the base of the TIP121 which results in the TIP121 > conducting more and pulling the -12V line down closer to it's correct > voltage. The opposite happens if the -12V goes lower than it should be, > the TIP121 is turned on less and this allows the -12V line to increase > negatively to it's correct value. >=20 > None of this circuitry should be doing very much until the chopper > transformer is producing the source for the -12V line. >=20 > I suppose if the TIP121 is sborted or the zener diode is shorted, it > could be causing problems, however, from the test results etc we have=20 > been given so far, I am not completely convinced there is a problem=20 > with the -12V line. >=20 > If a negative startup voltage is applied to the -12V line as well as > a positive voltage to Vstart to better simultate startup conditions, > it may reveal more about what is happening with the -12V line. > It might then be possible to compare the voltages across the zener > diodes in the working power supply and the non-working power supply > for example. >=20 > Regards, > Peter. >=20 >>=20 >> Regards >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Rob >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> From: Rob Jarratt =20 >> Sent: 02 May 2023 08:19 >> To: 'Mattis Lind' ; rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; 'General = Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> That=E2=80=99s a good idea, I will try that >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> From: Mattis Lind < mattislind(a)gmail.com= >=20 >> Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2023 7:55 AM >> To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion:= On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < cctalk(a)cla= ssiccmp.org> >> Cc: Rob Jarratt < robert.jarratt(a)= ntlworld.com> >> Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Not quite sure what you mean here. I had advice from a friend to bench test >> the control module by providing 14V to the input of the 7812. On the good >> PSU I can see the PWM operate, on the bad one the PWM is shutdown. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> And what happens if you feed in exactly 12 V on the output of the 7812? Wo= uld the PWM work then? By using a lab supply you could check if the circuit i= s sensitive to variation in the 12V supply. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> /Mattis >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Regards >>=20 >> Rob >>=20 >>=20 --===============6441137774517781908==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun May 7 19:18:21 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 12:18:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4174937245699566391==" --===============4174937245699566391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/7/23 11:58, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > Did you ever choose the mystery meal? > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit Only if it was the only choice left. On the menu, I think it was called "salisbury steak" --Chuck --===============4174937245699566391==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Sun May 7 22:53:29 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 15:53:21 -0700 Message-ID: <9DA20D3E-C0EA-40DA-9F7E-D881E018857B@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <00b001d980c1$7b44cc10$71ce6430$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5366041139621183632==" --===============5366041139621183632== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-May-07, at 1:54 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > The comments about the tolerance of the 7812 were right, it doesn=E2=80=99t= appear to be an issue with the replacement 7812 regulator because when I tri= ed using the bench PSU to feed exactly 12V to the circuit from the output of = the 7812 the comparator still gave the wrong result. It was still wrong if I = applied only 11V >=20 > I then looked at the value of Vz on the good and bad PSUs, when applying 12= V to the 7812 output. That was 5.4V in both the good and bad PSUs. Where I sa= w a difference was on the -12V output, it was +0.4V on the good PSU and 0.56V= on the bad one (the voltage varied so this was an average). I checked the vo= ltage drop across the current sense resistor. It is 0.01V on the good PSU and= 0.08V on the bad PSU, which would explain the higher positive voltage on the= -12V output and the comparator being turned on. From earlier measurements and the 45uA calc of current through the 51=CE=A9 s= ense resistor, the V across the 51=CE=A9 ISense-12 resistor should be only 0.= 002V. So a question is where is this 0.08V coming from? An unfulfilled -12V supply = for the E3 power pin might have been an explanation, as extra current might b= e drawn out of the E3d.+in input due to the +in being pulled below (negative = to) the=20 E3 -power pin. But you say that pin is connected to GND, so the source of the= 0.08V should be sought, some more comprehensive measurements around the E3d = inputs / ISenseR might help. From calculations from design/schematic: - E3d.+in should =3D 1/2 the voltage across the 51=CE=A9 ISense-12 resistor. - E3d.-in should =3D 0.033 V. - The trip condition to send the E3d output high (shutdown) is: V(ISR-12) >= 0.066V (V across ISense-12 Resistor). Also: Is that ISense-12 resistor really a 51=CE=A9 resistor? Or is it 5.1=CE= =A9 or 0.51=CE=A9? Again from calculation, 51=CE=A9 would imply a current lim= it of only 1.3mA, which is rather low. --===============5366041139621183632==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun May 7 23:08:55 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 16:08:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0696529616299808099==" --===============0696529616299808099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Salisbury is the place in England where they used to dump the unusable remnants of the animals that went to slaughter. Sellam On Sun, May 7, 2023 at 12:18 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 5/7/23 11:58, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > > Did you ever choose the mystery meal? > > > > Regards, > > Tarek Hoteit > > Only if it was the only choice left. On the menu, I think it was called > "salisbury steak" > > --Chuck > > --===============0696529616299808099==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sun May 7 23:16:10 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web Date: Sun, 07 May 2023 19:16:04 -0400 Message-ID: <9742e56d-769e-263d-bbf6-7ae76bbbbe93@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7836607537081409020==" --===============7836607537081409020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-05-07 19:08, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Salisbury is the place in England where they used to dump the unusable > remnants of the animals that went to slaughter. > > Sellam > > On Sun, May 7, 2023 at 12:18 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 5/7/23 11:58, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >>> Did you ever choose the mystery meal? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Tarek Hoteit >> Only if it was the only choice left. On the menu, I think it was called >> "salisbury steak" >> >> --Chuck >> >> Is that the plain truth? Sorry, couldn't resist! Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============7836607537081409020==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon May 8 07:16:55 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] do you have any western electric 498a diodes or know where I can get? Thanks ed sharpe Date: Mon, 08 May 2023 07:16:39 +0000 Message-ID: <1469724747.2920476.1683530199412@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1469724747.2920476.1683530199412.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8476227331356851624==" --===============8476227331356851624== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable do you have any western electric 498a diodes or know where I can get? Thanks = ed sharpe Sent from AOL on Android --===============8476227331356851624==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Mon May 8 12:03:21 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Mon, 08 May 2023 13:03:14 +0100 Message-ID: <00dc01d981a5$117dbbe0$347933a0$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <9DA20D3E-C0EA-40DA-9F7E-D881E018857B@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3412113438736564942==" --===============3412113438736564942== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent Hilpert > Sent: 07 May 2023 23:53 > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > On 2023-May-07, at 1:54 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > The comments about the tolerance of the 7812 were right, it doesn=E2=80= =99t > appear to be an issue with the replacement 7812 regulator because when I > tried using the bench PSU to feed exactly 12V to the circuit from the outpu= t of > the 7812 the comparator still gave the wrong result. It was still wrong if I > applied only 11V > > > > I then looked at the value of Vz on the good and bad PSUs, when applying > 12V to the 7812 output. That was 5.4V in both the good and bad PSUs. > Where I saw a difference was on the -12V output, it was +0.4V on the good > PSU and 0.56V on the bad one (the voltage varied so this was an average). I > checked the voltage drop across the current sense resistor. It is 0.01V on = the > good PSU and 0.08V on the bad PSU, which would explain the higher positive > voltage on the -12V output and the comparator being turned on. >=20 >=20 > From earlier measurements and the 45uA calc of current through the 51=CE=A9 > sense resistor, the V across the 51=CE=A9 ISense-12 resistor should be only= 0.002V. >=20 > So a question is where is this 0.08V coming from? An unfulfilled -12V supply > for the E3 power pin might have been an explanation, as extra current might > be drawn out of the E3d.+in input due to the +in being pulled below > (negative to) the > E3 -power pin. But you say that pin is connected to GND, so the source of t= he > 0.08V should be sought, some more comprehensive measurements around > the E3d inputs / ISenseR might help. I thought I had answered where the Vcc and GND are connected on the comparato= r. Vcc is connected to Vstart and GND to GND. I will look again at all the in= puts to check. >=20 > From calculations from design/schematic: > - E3d.+in should =3D 1/2 the voltage across the 51=CE=A9 ISense-12 resist= or. I measure 0.08V across the current sense resistor and indeed I found 0.04V on= the E3d +IN > - E3d.-in should =3D 0.033 V. And that is what I measured (actually 0.034V). > - The trip condition to send the E3d output high (shutdown) is: V(ISR-12)= > > 0.066V (V across ISense-12 Resistor). Indeed. The drop across the resistor is too high causing the comparator to tu= rn off, when it should be on and sinking current to allow the PWN to operate.= I think the comparator is working correctly, the problem seems to be the vol= tage drop across the resistor is genuinely too high, but I can't see why. Under the same test conditions, I measure a 0.01V drop across the resistor in= the good PSU. >=20 > Also: Is that ISense-12 resistor really a 51=CE=A9 resistor? Or is it 5.1= =CE=A9 or 0.51=CE=A9? > Again from calculation, 51=CE=A9 would imply a current limit of only 1.3mA,= which > is rather low. It is 51R, I have measured it (in circuit) and the colour coding confirms it.= The spec in the technical manual says the -12V is rated at 150mA max. Thanks Rob PS Will reply to Peter's email later when I have had a chance to understand i= t and to try the suggestions. --===============3412113438736564942==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon May 8 12:05:24 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: do you have any western electric 498a diodes or know where I can get? Thanks ed sharpe Date: Mon, 08 May 2023 08:05:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1469724747.2920476.1683530199412@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8352635910468017869==" --===============8352635910468017869== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More detail/context? On Mon, May 8, 2023, 3:16 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > do you have any western electric 498a diodes or know where I can get? > Thanks ed sharpe > > Sent from AOL on Android --===============8352635910468017869==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Mon May 8 12:38:57 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Mon, 08 May 2023 13:38:50 +0100 Message-ID: <00e601d981aa$0aa4b490$1fee1db0$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <01SR2VRW4WFE8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3135562786719722984==" --===============3135562786719722984== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Coghlan via cctalk > Sent: 07 May 2023 10:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: Peter Coghlan > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > > > > The comments about the tolerance of the 7812 were right, it doesn=E2=80= =99t > > appear to be an issue with the replacement 7812 regulator because when > > I tried using the bench PSU to feed exactly 12V to the circuit from > > the output of the 7812 the comparator still gave the wrong result. It > > was still wrong if I applied only 11V > > >=20 > What do you mean by "gave the wrong result"? If the power supply to the > comparator is "reasonable" and the comparator's output does not reflect > what is happening at it's inputs, the comparator is faulty. >=20 > If the comparator is giving the "wrong result" because it's inputs are tell= ing it > to, it is behaving correctly. Sorry for the loose language. I mean that the comparator is working correctly= but the output is not what should be expected, because its inputs are wrong. >=20 > With no mains supply connected and a positive startup voltage applied to > Vstart and a negative startup voltage applied to the -12V line via a 2k7 > resistor, you could try shorting the inputs of the comparator together and = see > whether this changes the comparator's output. I want to emphasise doing > this without power going to the mains rectifier feeding the chopper so that= if > there is real overload, the magic smoke will not be released. >=20 > If the output if the comparator is then "correct" and this output being > "wrong" was the source of the PSU not working, then the PWM should start > up like it does in the good power supply. This would confirm that there is= a > problem in the components providing and/or mmonitoring the -12V line. > If the PWM does not start up, this suggests the problem is elsewhere. >=20 I can tell you that if I remove the diode on the output of the -12V comparato= r then the PWM operates normally. > > > > I then looked at the value of Vz on the good and bad PSUs, when > > applying 12V to the 7812 output. That was 5.4V in both the good and > > bad PSUs. Where I saw a difference was on the -12V output, it was > > +0.4V on the good PSU and 0.56V on the bad one (the voltage varied so > > this was an average). I checked the voltage drop across the current > > sense resistor. It is 0.01V on the good PSU and 0.08V on the bad PSU, > > which would explain the higher positive voltage on the -12V output and the > comparator being turned on. > > > > > > > > I am wondering if there could be a problem on the -12V output circuit > > (PSU Sheet 3). I am struggling to understand the purpose of the two > > transistors and the Zener diode there, but maybe one of them should be > > switched on and isn=E2=80=99t. I am also unsure now as to which diode is = doing > > the rectification (to -12V). Someone said it was the one attached to > > pin 6 of the transformer, but is that right? Isn=E2=80=99t it the Zener d= iode > > half way across the page? > > >=20 > The TIP121 darlington transistor is a shunt regulator for the -12V line. > The voltage at the base of the MPSA55 transistor varies with the -12V line > because it is connected to the -12V line via the potential divider formed by > the 1k24 and 1k10 resistors. If the voltage on the -12V line increases in = the > negative direction, the voltage at the base of the MPSA55 increases in > proportion to it via the potential divider. It's emitter voltage is fixed = by the > zener diode so the MPSA55 is turned on more and it pulls more current > through the base of the TIP121 which results in the TIP121 conducting more > and pulling the -12V line down closer to it's correct voltage. The opposite > happens if the -12V goes lower than it should be, the TIP121 is turned on l= ess > and this allows the -12V line to increase negatively to it's correct value. >=20 > None of this circuitry should be doing very much until the chopper > transformer is producing the source for the -12V line. >=20 > I suppose if the TIP121 is sborted or the zener diode is shorted, it could = be > causing problems, however, from the test results etc we have been given so > far, I am not completely convinced there is a problem with the -12V line. >=20 > If a negative startup voltage is applied to the -12V line as well as a posi= tive > voltage to Vstart to better simultate startup conditions, it may reveal more > about what is happening with the -12V line. > It might then be possible to compare the voltages across the zener diodes in > the working power supply and the non-working power supply for example. Thanks for the explanation. I am getting a better understanding now. I have n= oticed a difference here between the good and the bad PSU. On the good PSU I = found the collector on TIP121 at 0V. On the bad PSU it was at +0.016V. The ba= se-emitter voltage drop is -0.02V on the good PSU and -0.09V on the bad one. = This is making it feel like the TIP121 may be faulty, would you agree? >=20 > Regards, > Peter. >=20 > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 02 May 2023 08:19 > > To: 'Mattis Lind' ; rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; 'General > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > > > > > That=E2=80=99s a good idea, I will try that > > > > > > > > From: Mattis Lind < > > mattislind(a)gmail.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2023 7:55 AM > > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: > > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Rob Jarratt < > > robert.jarratt(a)ntlworld.com> > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not quite sure what you mean here. I had advice from a friend to bench > > test the control module by providing 14V to the input of the 7812. On > > the good PSU I can see the PWM operate, on the bad one the PWM is > shutdown. > > > > > > > > And what happens if you feed in exactly 12 V on the output of the 7812? > Would the PWM work then? By using a lab supply you could check if the > circuit is sensitive to variation in the 12V supply. > > > > > > > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > --===============3135562786719722984==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Mon May 8 17:40:20 2023 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: do you have any western electric 498a diodes or know where I can get? Thanks ed sharpe Date: Mon, 08 May 2023 12:40:05 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1469724747.2920476.1683530199412@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4602382221252563524==" --===============4602382221252563524== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable tube style? On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 2:17=E2=80=AFAM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > do you have any western electric 498a diodes or know where I can get? > Thanks ed sharpe > > Sent from AOL on Android --===============4602382221252563524==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Mon May 8 22:57:52 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Mon, 08 May 2023 20:27:14 +0100 Message-ID: <01SR4ZNJZ9CU8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <00e601d981aa$0aa4b490$1fee1db0$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0664738635695064527==" --===============0664738635695064527== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Peter Coghlan via cctalk > > Sent: 07 May 2023 10:34 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Cc: Peter Coghlan > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > >=20 > > > > > > The comments about the tolerance of the 7812 were right, it doesn=E2=80= =99t > > > appear to be an issue with the replacement 7812 regulator because when > > > I tried using the bench PSU to feed exactly 12V to the circuit from > > > the output of the 7812 the comparator still gave the wrong result. It > > > was still wrong if I applied only 11V > > > > >=20 > > What do you mean by "gave the wrong result"? If the power supply to the > > comparator is "reasonable" and the comparator's output does not reflect > > what is happening at it's inputs, the comparator is faulty. > >=20 > > If the comparator is giving the "wrong result" because it's inputs are te= lling it > > to, it is behaving correctly. >=20 > Sorry for the loose language. I mean that the comparator is working correct= ly > but the output is not what should be expected, because its inputs are wrong. >=20 > >=20 > > With no mains supply connected and a positive startup voltage applied to > > Vstart and a negative startup voltage applied to the -12V line via a 2k7 > > resistor, you could try shorting the inputs of the comparator together an= d see > > whether this changes the comparator's output. I want to emphasise doing > > this without power going to the mains rectifier feeding the chopper so th= at if > > there is real overload, the magic smoke will not be released. > >=20 > > If the output if the comparator is then "correct" and this output being > > "wrong" was the source of the PSU not working, then the PWM should start > > up like it does in the good power supply. This would confirm that there = is a > > problem in the components providing and/or mmonitoring the -12V line. > > If the PWM does not start up, this suggests the problem is elsewhere. > >=20 >=20 > I can tell you that if I remove the diode on the output of the -12V > comparator then the PWM operates normally. >=20 > > > > > > I then looked at the value of Vz on the good and bad PSUs, when > > > applying 12V to the 7812 output. That was 5.4V in both the good and > > > bad PSUs. Where I saw a difference was on the -12V output, it was > > > +0.4V on the good PSU and 0.56V on the bad one (the voltage varied so > > > this was an average). I checked the voltage drop across the current > > > sense resistor. It is 0.01V on the good PSU and 0.08V on the bad PSU, > > > which would explain the higher positive voltage on the -12V output and = the > > comparator being turned on. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am wondering if there could be a problem on the -12V output circuit > > > (PSU Sheet 3). I am struggling to understand the purpose of the two > > > transistors and the Zener diode there, but maybe one of them should be > > > switched on and isn=E2=80=99t. I am also unsure now as to which diode i= s doing > > > the rectification (to -12V). Someone said it was the one attached to > > > pin 6 of the transformer, but is that right? Isn=E2=80=99t it the Zener= diode > > > half way across the page? > > > > >=20 > > The TIP121 darlington transistor is a shunt regulator for the -12V line. > > The voltage at the base of the MPSA55 transistor varies with the -12V line > > because it is connected to the -12V line via the potential divider formed= by > > the 1k24 and 1k10 resistors. If the voltage on the -12V line increases i= n the > > negative direction, the voltage at the base of the MPSA55 increases in > > proportion to it via the potential divider. It's emitter voltage is fixe= d by the > > zener diode so the MPSA55 is turned on more and it pulls more current > > through the base of the TIP121 which results in the TIP121 conducting more > > and pulling the -12V line down closer to it's correct voltage. The oppos= ite > > happens if the -12V goes lower than it should be, the TIP121 is turned on= less > > and this allows the -12V line to increase negatively to it's correct valu= e. > >=20 > > None of this circuitry should be doing very much until the chopper > > transformer is producing the source for the -12V line. > >=20 > > I suppose if the TIP121 is sborted or the zener diode is shorted, it coul= d be > > causing problems, however, from the test results etc we have been given so > > far, I am not completely convinced there is a problem with the -12V line. > >=20 > > If a negative startup voltage is applied to the -12V line as well as a po= sitive > > voltage to Vstart to better simultate startup conditions, it may reveal m= ore > > about what is happening with the -12V line. > > It might then be possible to compare the voltages across the zener diodes= in > > the working power supply and the non-working power supply for example. >=20 > Thanks for the explanation. I am getting a better understanding now. I have > noticed a difference here between the good and the bad PSU. On the good PSU > I found the collector on TIP121 at 0V. On the bad PSU it was at +0.016V. > The base-emitter voltage drop is -0.02V on the good PSU and -0.09V on the > bad one. This is making it feel like the TIP121 may be faulty, would you > agree? > I don't think we can draw any conclusions from voltage measurements around the TIP121 without the -12V line being approximately correct or at the very least being negative. It's collector voltage being 0V on the good PSU suggests there is no current flowing through the parallel 20R resistors and therefore no emitter-collector current through the TIP121 so it's not being switched on meaning that it's driver doesn't feel the need to pull the -12V line down nearer 0V because it's already low enough. (Maybe having a load is enough to keep it at the correct level and the shunt regulator only starts doing stuff if the load is less than expected or removed altogether? Or maybe the -12V line is not present when the test was done?) The collector voltage of the TIP121 on the bad PSU being slightly positive is probably due to the voltage on it's emitter (ie the -12V line) being positive instead of negative which makes it's bias conditions all wrong and any measurements around it mostly meaningless. How about applying -12V or slightly less from a bench supply current limited to about 150mA to the -12V line and seeing what happens? If the PSU and/or -12V load tries to draw more than that there would seem to be a real overload and further investigation is needed to find out what is drawing the current. Measure the voltage across the zener diode in the -12V regulator and compare with the good PSU. Also compare the voltage across the parallel 20R resistor= s. A larger voltage here would indicate more current being drawn through the TIP121. Under these conditions, there shouldn't be any voltage across the 51R current sensing resistor for the -12V line. If there is, it suggests there could be reverse leakage through the -12V rectifier diode. However, Brent's calculations show that the current trip value for the -12V line is as low as 1.3mA and I can't see any reason to disagree with his calculations or his conclusion that this seems very low (except that another tiny smidgen of current is available from the negative startup supply but this won't really have any bearing on things). If this is really the case, then placing something like a 5k6 resistor across the -12V line on the good PSU should cause enough current to flow for the trip to operate. Finding this level of leakage in the failed PSU is not going to be easy. On the other hand, if this test doesn't trip it, then please look very closely at the resistors and connections to the inputs of E3d and verify that they are as described on the circuit diagram. It seems very strange indeed to have a trip value as low as 1.3mA combined with a shunt regulator whose method of regulation is to pull the voltage down by drawing current from the supply line. Perhaps the shunt regulator might be able to pull enough current to cause the trip to operate if the -12V line was too high (in the negative sense) or if the shunt regulator was under the mistaken impression that the -12V line was too high? (This is a bit unlikely but the 115V/230V switch is set correctly, isn't it?) On the other other hand, if the manual says that the -12V line is supposed to be able to supply 150mA, then it doesn't make sense for the current trip to operate at 1.3mA and we must be going wrong somewhere. Regards, Peter. >=20 > >=20 > > Regards, > > Peter. > >=20 > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > Sent: 02 May 2023 08:19 > > > To: 'Mattis Lind' ; rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; 'Gener= al > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > > > > > > > > > That=E2=80=99s a good idea, I will try that > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Mattis Lind < > > > mattislind(a)gmail.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2023 7:55 AM > > > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General Discussi= on: > > > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > Cc: Rob Jarratt < > > > robert.jarratt(a)ntlworld.com> > > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not quite sure what you mean here. I had advice from a friend to bench > > > test the control module by providing 14V to the input of the 7812. On > > > the good PSU I can see the PWM operate, on the bad one the PWM is > > shutdown. > > > > > > > > > > > > And what happens if you feed in exactly 12 V on the output of the 7812? > > Would the PWM work then? By using a lab supply you could check if the > > circuit is sensitive to variation in the 12V supply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > --===============0664738635695064527==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue May 9 02:55:35 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Kennett Classic May 20th hack-a-thon and Swap Date: Mon, 08 May 2023 22:55:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5824149607785917703==" --===============5824149607785917703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kennett Classic May 20th hack-a-thon and Swap May 20th, 2023 | 9AM – 11PM 115 S. Union St. Kennett Square, PA (Hack-a-thon is in our large workspace "The Garage" across the street from the museum) Plenty of room for everyone, tables, chairs and power supplied. REGISTER NOW TO ENSURE YOUR SPACE Here is the URL for the EVENT REGISTRATION: https://www.kennettclassic.com/spring-hack-a-thon-may-20th-2023/ $5 / person (family) $10 / vendor Kids free. HACK-A-THON Any vintage computers (older than 20 years) you wish to restore, demo or sell during the day Hacking? Bring Your Tools (power strip, soldering irons, volt meters, screw drivers, spare parts) Dolly or cart to bring items in from the parking lot area. VENDORS Spaces for people who want to sell their items or exhibit/demo their projects. EXHIBITORS / DEMOS welcome! GENERAL PUBLIC There will be a pretty steady stream of visitors from the local community too. We have a growing vintage computing community in the South Eastern PA / North Delaware / North MD area. Saturdays are usually the busiest days at the museum, and downtown in Kennett. The museum will be open as usual for a Saturday, 12-5. Visit our event page for more details, contact, directions https://www.kennettclassic.com/spring-hack-a-thon-may-20th-2023/ EVENT MAILING LIST https://www.kennettclassic.com/contact.cfm Bring the Family! Things to do in Kennett Square https://www.kennettclassic.com/while-at-kennett-classic-food/ We're Nearby Longwood Gardens https://www.longwoodgardens.org Thank you. Bill Degnan Kennett Classic 484 732 741 https://www.kennettclassic.com Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/6130337163716721 --===============5824149607785917703==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Tue May 9 06:25:06 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 07:24:49 +0100 Message-ID: <000001d9823e$f55c4b30$e014e190$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <01SR4ZNJZ9CU8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8227093846891102239==" --===============8227093846891102239== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 > I don't think we can draw any conclusions from voltage measurements > around the TIP121 without the -12V line being approximately correct or at > the very least being negative. >=20 > It's collector voltage being 0V on the good PSU suggests there is no current > flowing through the parallel 20R resistors and therefore no emitter-collect= or > current through the TIP121 so it's not being switched on meaning that it's > driver doesn't feel the need to pull the -12V line down nearer 0V because i= t's > already low enough. (Maybe having a load is enough to keep it at the corre= ct > level and the shunt regulator only starts doing stuff if the load is less t= han > expected or removed altogether? Or maybe the -12V line is not present when > the test was done?) >=20 > The collector voltage of the TIP121 on the bad PSU being slightly positive = is > probably due to the voltage on it's emitter (ie the -12V line) being positi= ve > instead of negative which makes it's bias conditions all wrong and any > measurements around it mostly meaningless. I am going to read your answer more carefully later. But I wanted to check on= e thing. I measured the base-emitter voltage as negative in both cases, and y= et the TIP121 appears to be conducting on the bad PSU. Surely that means that= the TIP121 is not working correctly? >=20 > How about applying -12V or slightly less from a bench supply current limited > to about 150mA to the -12V line and seeing what happens? If the PSU > and/or -12V load tries to draw more than that there would seem to be a real > overload and further investigation is needed to find out what is drawing the > current. >=20 > Measure the voltage across the zener diode in the -12V regulator and > compare with the good PSU. Also compare the voltage across the parallel > 20R resistors. > A larger voltage here would indicate more current being drawn through the > TIP121. >=20 > Under these conditions, there shouldn't be any voltage across the 51R > current sensing resistor for the -12V line. If there is, it suggests there= could > be reverse leakage through the -12V rectifier diode. >=20 >=20 > However, Brent's calculations show that the current trip value for the -12V > line is as low as 1.3mA and I can't see any reason to disagree with his > calculations or his conclusion that this seems very low (except that another > tiny smidgen of current is available from the negative startup supply but t= his > won't really have any bearing on things). If this is really the case, then = placing > something like a 5k6 resistor across the -12V line on the good PSU should > cause enough current to flow for the trip to operate. Finding this level of > leakage in the failed PSU is not going to be easy. >=20 > On the other hand, if this test doesn't trip it, then please look very clos= ely at > the resistors and connections to the inputs of E3d and verify that they are= as > described on the circuit diagram. >=20 > It seems very strange indeed to have a trip value as low as 1.3mA combined > with a shunt regulator whose method of regulation is to pull the voltage > down by drawing current from the supply line. Perhaps the shunt regulator > might be able to pull enough current to cause the trip to operate if the -1= 2V > line was too high (in the negative sense) or if the shunt regulator was und= er > the mistaken impression that the -12V line was too high? >=20 > (This is a bit unlikely but the 115V/230V switch is set correctly, isn't it= ?) >=20 > On the other other hand, if the manual says that the -12V line is supposed = to > be able to supply 150mA, then it doesn't make sense for the current trip to > operate at 1.3mA and we must be going wrong somewhere. >=20 > Regards, > Peter. >=20 > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Peter. > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > > Sent: 02 May 2023 08:19 > > > > To: 'Mattis Lind' ; rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; > > > > 'General > > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That=E2=80=99s a good idea, I will try that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Mattis Lind < > > > > mattislind(a)gmail.com> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2023 7:55 AM > > > > To: rob(a)jarratt.me.uk; General > Discussion: > > > > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > > Cc: Rob Jarratt < > > > > robert.jarratt(a)ntlworld.com> > > > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not quite sure what you mean here. I had advice from a friend to > > > > bench test the control module by providing 14V to the input of the > > > > 7812. On the good PSU I can see the PWM operate, on the bad one > > > > the PWM is > > > shutdown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what happens if you feed in exactly 12 V on the output of the > 7812? > > > Would the PWM work then? By using a lab supply you could check if > > > the circuit is sensitive to variation in the 12V supply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > --===============8227093846891102239==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Tue May 9 07:00:12 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 00:00:05 -0700 Message-ID: <915C3362-E2D0-4077-80C4-6791F8FB605E@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <000001d9823e$f55c4b30$e014e190$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3166875164483251090==" --===============3166875164483251090== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-May-08, at 11:24 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I am going to read your answer more carefully later. But I wanted to check = one thing. I measured the base-emitter voltage as negative in both cases, and= yet the TIP121 appears to be conducting on the bad PSU. Surely that means th= at the TIP121 is not working correctly? The TIP121 would/could be conducting because under your test setup with no VS= tart-12 it's biased in the reverse-from-normal direction and could be conduct= ing in reverse through the BC junction. The 0.016V across the 10=CE=A9 R from= C-to-GND is nonetheless higher than would be expected from the trickle curre= nt available. Which brings me to this, in reply to earlier message: On 2023-May-08, at 5:03 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert >>=20 >> From earlier measurements and the 45uA calc of current through the 51=CE=A9 >> sense resistor, the V across the 51=CE=A9 ISense-12 resistor should be onl= y 0.002V. >>=20 >> So a question is where is this 0.08V coming from? An unfulfilled -12V supp= ly >> for the E3 power pin might have been an explanation, as extra current might >> be drawn out of the E3d.+in input due to the +in being pulled below >> (negative to) the >> E3 -power pin. But you say that pin is connected to GND, so the source of = the >> 0.08V should be sought, some more comprehensive measurements around >> the E3d inputs / ISenseR might help. >=20 > I thought I had answered where the Vcc and GND are connected on the compara= tor. Vcc is connected to Vstart and GND to GND. ... Yes, this was acknowledged. I was explaining how it might have been the sourc= e of the mystery 0.08V, so if/as it's not then here's another possibility: It's conceivable there is an oscillation being generated around this -12V ou= tput circuitry, perhaps by a bad semiconductor junction or because some of th= e junctions are operating in reverse to normal under the test setup in conjun= ction with the caps and inductors, the mystery voltage being generated in con= sequence. Have you poked around the -12V area with a scope, as opposed to mul= ti-meter V measurements?=20 --===============3166875164483251090==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Tue May 9 07:28:33 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 00:28:27 -0700 Message-ID: <97E6FE9B-C7A4-4C38-BF04-7AB75EC7C1AE@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <01SR4ZNJZ9CU8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7788649362472226226==" --===============7788649362472226226== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-May-08, at 12:27 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > However, Brent's calculations show that the current trip value for the -12V > line is as low as 1.3mA and I can't see any reason to disagree with his > calculations or his conclusion that this seems very low (except that another > tiny smidgen of current is available from the negative startup supply but > this won't really have any bearing on things). If this is really the case, > then placing something like a 5k6 resistor across the -12V line on the good > PSU should cause enough current to flow for the trip to operate. Finding > this level of leakage in the failed PSU is not going to be easy. >=20 > On the other hand, if this test doesn't trip it, then please look very > closely at the resistors and connections to the inputs of E3d and verify > that they are as described on the circuit diagram. >=20 > It seems very strange indeed to have a trip value as low as 1.3mA combined > with a shunt regulator whose method of regulation is to pull the voltage > down by drawing current from the supply line. Perhaps the shunt regulator > might be able to pull enough current to cause the trip to operate if the > -12V line was too high (in the negative sense) or if the shunt regulator > was under the mistaken impression that the -12V line was too high? >=20 > (This is a bit unlikely but the 115V/230V switch is set correctly, isn't it= ?) >=20 > On the other other hand, if the manual says that the -12V line is supposed > to be able to supply 150mA, then it doesn't make sense for the current trip > to operate at 1.3mA and we must be going wrong somewhere. I thought I must be off somewhere by 10^n when first doing the calc. The 51= =CE=A9 is 3 orders of magnitude away from the 0.01=CE=A9 on the other outputs= , so a similar diff could be anticipated on the current sense. The low current sense might be explained as follows: This power supply does not follow the more-common design of flyback switching= mains supplies. This supply is actually 2 (or 3) bucking regulators being fed from a mains-is= olation transformer, with the bucking regulation going to the PWM oscillator = then looping back to the driver on the primary side of the mains-isolation tr= ansformer. This is discernible in the presence of the freewheeling diodes bes= ide the rectifier diodes of the +5 & +12 outputs. DEC seemed to like doing th= is as the VaxMate supply from jarratt last year was of similar design. A gues= s is it may have made the inductor design easier, separating the flyback oper= ation out to separated inductors rather than in the all in the same mains tra= nsformer. I'm speculating the unusual shunt regulator in the -12V output is actually a = 'controlled freewheeling diode' for a -12V bucking step-down. The choke would= be stepping down the voltage from the -12 output secondary from something hi= gher down to the actual -12V output. With a higher V from the secondary, a lo= wer current is needed for the same energy throughput, and thus sense on a low= er max current from the secondary. However, one would anticipate the regulati= on V sense point in such operation to be on the other side of the choke than = what's shown in the schematic. --===============7788649362472226226==-- From dwerts@nrao.edu Tue May 9 16:54:52 2023 From: Dani Werts To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NRAO Data tapes Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 16:36:20 +0000 Message-ID: <7ed88560028e4ce180f3b978909c2369@nrao.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2677672351741244947==" --===============2677672351741244947== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm an employee with the National radio astronomy observatory here in Socorro= New Mexico. As part of our NGVLA upgrades, we are seeking to get rid of old data tapes fr= om the tape reel days of Computing. These contain things such as the boot loa= ders, OS, specific collection programs and antenna movement programs. I personally would hate to see these just wind up in the literal dumpster and= would like to see them sent out to a museum or an archiving body that can pr= eserve them and keep them safe as a dynamic part of history. If anyone is interested or knows someone who would be interested in the VLAs = data tape library please let me know. V/R Danielle Werts Front end engineer VLA Socorro New Mexico --===============2677672351741244947==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Tue May 9 17:00:42 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 10:00:36 -0700 Message-ID: <686A549D-A43D-4F37-90AB-43A4FB29A765@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <97E6FE9B-C7A4-4C38-BF04-7AB75EC7C1AE@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7671691958186060774==" --===============7671691958186060774== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-May-09, at 12:28 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > I thought I must be off somewhere by 10^n when first doing the calc. The 51= =CE=A9 is 3 orders of magnitude away from the 0.01=CE=A9 on the other outputs= , so a similar diff could be anticipated on the current sense. >=20 > The low current sense might be explained as follows: >=20 > ... > I'm speculating the unusual shunt regulator in the -12V output is actually = a 'controlled freewheeling diode' for a -12V bucking step-down. The choke wou= ld be stepping down the voltage from the -12 output secondary from something = higher down to the actual -12V output. With a higher V from the secondary, a = lower current is needed for the same energy throughput, and thus sense on a l= ower max current from the secondary. However, one would anticipate the regula= tion V sense point in such operation to be on the other side of the choke tha= n what's shown in the schematic. Thinking further this morning. The TIP121 is the wrong orientation or polarit= y to be acting as a freewheeling conductor (--explanation). However, that's t= he transistor section. The 121 has a built-in flyback diode which is the righ= t orientation (++explanation). Still some things that don't make sense though= , like the high EI ratio needed from the order 100 I difference (--explanatio= n), and how the load current would be supplied during the charge portion of t= he cycle (--explanation). --===============7671691958186060774==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Tue May 9 17:07:14 2023 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 16:59:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7ed88560028e4ce180f3b978909c2369@nrao.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6045255199186346227==" --===============6045255199186346227== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, May 9th, 2023 at 09:36, Dani Werts via cctalk wrote: > As part of our NGVLA upgrades, we are seeking to get rid of old data tapes = from the tape > reel days of Computing. These contain things such as the boot loaders, OS, = specific > collection programs and antenna movement programs. Reach out to the Computer History Museum (https://computerhistory.org/), they= might be interested. The Internet Archive might also be interested in copies. The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============6045255199186346227==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 9 17:09:17 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 10:09:00 -0700 Message-ID: <837330eb-2e03-97ac-4c8b-9473cf9dd67d@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <7ed88560028e4ce180f3b978909c2369@nrao.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3213327315000030130==" --===============3213327315000030130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It would be useful to know what systems these tapes were used on. All the best, --Chuck On 5/9/23 09:36, Dani Werts via cctalk wrote: > Hello, >=20 > I'm an employee with the National radio astronomy observatory here in Socor= ro New Mexico. > As part of our NGVLA upgrades, we are seeking to get rid of old data tapes = from the tape reel days of Computing. These contain things such as the boot l= oaders, OS, specific collection programs and antenna movement programs. > I personally would hate to see these just wind up in the literal dumpster a= nd would like to see them sent out to a museum or an archiving body that can = preserve them and keep them safe as a dynamic part of history. >=20 > If anyone is interested or knows someone who would be interested in the VLA= s data tape library please let me know. >=20 >=20 > V/R > Danielle Werts > Front end engineer > VLA Socorro New Mexico --===============3213327315000030130==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Tue May 9 17:48:55 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 17:57:52 +0100 Message-ID: <01SR63LBR0CI8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <000001d9823e$f55c4b30$e014e190$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7205445531182112851==" --===============7205445531182112851== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I am going to read your answer more carefully later. But I wanted to check > one thing. I measured the base-emitter voltage as negative in both cases, > and yet the TIP121 appears to be conducting on the bad PSU. Surely that > means that the TIP121 is not working correctly? > I'd be very reluctant to draw any conclusions from measurements made when the device is not biased correctly. As Brent says, there could be current flowing through the presumably forward biased base-collector junction. Also, this device is a not just a straighforward transistor. It's data sheet says it is a package containing two transistors and some other components, including a normally reverse biased diode between the collector and emitter terminals. A positive voltage of sufficient magnitude on it's emitter could be forward biasing this diode resulting in current flow through it and therefore also through the 20R resistors causing a voltage to be developed across them. I think a better way to determine if the TIP121 is causing excess current draw on the -12V line is to make the voltage at it's emitter approximately correct and see if it then draws enough current through itself to cause the excess current trip to operate. This current can then be measured by observing the voltage across the 20R resistors (or the smoke coming from them if they are not of sufficient power rating...). It should also be possible to observe the conditions around the zener diode and the MPSA55 and see if these components are behaving reasonably. Regards, Peter. --===============7205445531182112851==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Tue May 9 18:08:55 2023 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 18:08:46 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4956189214633724173==" --===============4956189214633724173== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see some altairs have a metal escutcheon on the bottom with the stylized wo= rds "MITS ALTAIR 8800 COMPUTER" whereas others, the front panel is just the d= ark faceplate top to bottom. What is the difference? Would one have been a ki= t and the other sold fully assembled? Or maybe later units vs earlier units? 73 Eugene W2HX Check out my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos --===============4956189214633724173==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue May 9 18:18:10 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 18:11:01 +0000 Message-ID: <9tLThKa55t1ZL9VbOHoYe1BJ3nX_F4cGdqa57RKfL2JWbKCy51CYT4Dvfo7ebXd-24HMqmAtOV2ga94fZNL31PaWNb5sD39aCuVgfkr9aI0=@glitchwrks.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBN9PR12MB52764CCE6D2BF168E1758227B5769=40BN9PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5276=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5933857518883541417==" --===============5933857518883541417== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Everyone lost the metal strip! It's sandwiched in between the trim of the out= er case and the dress panel. Some folks stuck it to the dress panel with glue= , double-sided tape, etc. Those are usually the machines which still have the= metal strip. Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, May 9th, 2023 at 14:08, W2HX via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > I see some altairs have a metal escutcheon on the bottom with the stylized = words "MITS ALTAIR 8800 COMPUTER" whereas others, the front panel is just the= dark faceplate top to bottom. What is the difference? Would one have been a = kit and the other sold fully assembled? Or maybe later units vs earlier units? >=20 >=20 > 73 Eugene W2HX > Check out my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos --===============5933857518883541417==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 9 18:21:26 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 11:21:06 -0700 Message-ID: <31be4cca-bef2-068b-f71d-f0cd75f2bfdb@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <7ed88560028e4ce180f3b978909c2369@nrao.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6930773493099810036==" --===============6930773493099810036== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/9/23 09:36, Dani Werts via cctalk wrote: > Hello, >=20 > I'm an employee with the National radio astronomy observatory here in Socor= ro New Mexico. > As part of our NGVLA upgrades, we are seeking to get rid of old data tapes = from the tape reel days of Computing. These contain things such as the boot l= oaders, OS, specific collection programs and antenna movement programs. > I personally would hate to see these just wind up in the literal dumpster a= nd would like to see them sent out to a museum or an archiving body that can = preserve them and keep them safe as a dynamic part of history. Funny coincidence--I just processed a 1981 9 track tape from Mauna Kea dealing with some Neptune observations. It's all binary, which makes me wonder if the client has the program to digest it--I wonder if said program might be in your collection of tapes. --Chuck --===============6930773493099810036==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 9 18:23:22 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 11:23:08 -0700 Message-ID: <03b6428c-bd57-dfb3-14ab-35cb34040617@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C9tLThKa55t1ZL9VbOHoYe1BJ3nX=5FF4cGdqa57RKfL2JWbKCy?= =?utf-8?q?51CYT4Dvfo7ebXd-24HMqmAtOV2ga94fZNL31PaWNb5sD39aCuVgfkr9aI0=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5188937889538180321==" --===============5188937889538180321== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/9/23 11:11, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > Everyone lost the metal strip! It's sandwiched in between the trim of the o= uter case and the dress panel. Some folks stuck it to the dress panel with gl= ue, double-sided tape, etc. Those are usually the machines which still have t= he metal strip. >=20 > Thanks, > Jonathan Yup, lost mine sometime in the 1980s. The stickum on the strip dried out pretty quickly. --Chuck --===============5188937889538180321==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Tue May 9 18:29:24 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 11:29:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBN9PR12MB52764CCE6D2BF168E1758227B5769=40BN9PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5276=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7896318604313163727==" --===============7896318604313163727== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-May-09, at 11:08 AM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > I see some altairs have a metal escutcheon on the bottom with the stylized = words "MITS ALTAIR 8800 COMPUTER" whereas others, the front panel is just the= dark faceplate top to bottom. What is the difference? Would one have been a = kit and the other sold fully assembled? Or maybe later units vs earlier units? I'm currently working on restoration of an 8800. On this unit, as Jonathan me= ntioned, the strip is glued/stuck on and some could easily be getting lost ov= er the years. Might note also that the Altair on/in the Pop Electronics issue is physically= vastly different than what shipped, it's not even the same case. --===============7896318604313163727==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 9 18:47:25 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 11:47:09 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3322019212697944154==" --===============3322019212697944154== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 9, 2023 at 11:29 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Might note also that the Altair on/in the Pop Electronics issue is > physically vastly different than what shipped, it's not even the same case. Yes. According to lore, that unit got lost in transit to Popular Electronics. My theories: 1) It actually did get lost in transit 2) MITS lied and said they sent it, but didn't, because they weren't ready with the prototype for the photoshoot and needed to buy more time to finish it 3) The UPS driver, being an aspiring if unscrupulous electronics and computer nerd, and tipped off as to what was in the package, "lost" it and took it home for himself To the extent that prototype is still out there, it would definitely be one of the few truly "holy grails" of the computer collecting hobby, along with the missing chunk of the Apple 1 prototype. Sellam --===============3322019212697944154==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Tue May 9 18:51:35 2023 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 18:51:26 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2389155936395235010==" --===============2389155936395235010== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok thanks everyone for the clarification.=20 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos =20 -----Original Message----- From: Brent Hilpert via cctalk =20 Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2023 2:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Brent Hilpert Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question=20 On 2023-May-09, at 11:08 AM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > I see some altairs have a metal escutcheon on the bottom with the stylized = words "MITS ALTAIR 8800 COMPUTER" whereas others, the front panel is just the= dark faceplate top to bottom. What is the difference? Would one have been a = kit and the other sold fully assembled? Or maybe later units vs earlier units? I'm currently working on restoration of an 8800. On this unit, as Jonathan me= ntioned, the strip is glued/stuck on and some could easily be getting lost ov= er the years. Might note also that the Altair on/in the Pop Electronics issue is physically= vastly different than what shipped, it's not even the same case. --===============2389155936395235010==-- From shumaker@att.net Tue May 9 20:03:12 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 13:03:04 -0700 Message-ID: <242c9ccd-193a-a980-7457-9d4c94dfc6dd@att.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7769279333896097820==" --===============7769279333896097820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A mostly similar variation has it that they shipped the unit via Railway Express Agency   (remember REA??)  and as the story goes, it was in transit when REA closed their doors unexpectedly and with no warning, went bankrupt. Steve On 5/9/23 11:47 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, May 9, 2023 at 11:29 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Might note also that the Altair on/in the Pop Electronics issue is >> physically vastly different than what shipped, it's not even the same case. > > Yes. According to lore, that unit got lost in transit to Popular > Electronics. > > My theories: > > 1) It actually did get lost in transit > 2) MITS lied and said they sent it, but didn't, because they weren't ready > with the prototype for the photoshoot and needed to buy more time to finish > it > 3) The UPS driver, being an aspiring if unscrupulous electronics and > computer nerd, and tipped off as to what was in the package, "lost" it and > took it home for himself > > To the extent that prototype is still out there, it would definitely be one > of the few truly "holy grails" of the computer collecting hobby, along with > the missing chunk of the Apple 1 prototype. > > Sellam --===============7769279333896097820==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 9 20:53:05 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 13:52:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <242c9ccd-193a-a980-7457-9d4c94dfc6dd@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4195409195750275389==" --===============4195409195750275389== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 9, 2023 at 1:03 PM steve shumaker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > A mostly similar variation has it that they shipped the unit via Railway > Express Agency (remember REA??) and as the story goes, it was in > transit when REA closed their doors unexpectedly and with no warning, > went bankrupt. > I don't believe I ever heard that story. Then again, I'm not sure where I got "UPS" from. Perhaps just an assumption on my part. I'm too young to remember REA, let alone having ever even heard of it. Interestingly, there is a tidbit in the REA Stupidpedia article about the Altair 8800 prototype: *In November 1975, REA Express terminated operations and filed for bankruptcy. During the railroad strike of October 1974, the first Altair 8800 microcomputer was lost. It had been shipped from Albuquerque to Popular Electronics magazine in New York via REA and never arrived.* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Express_Agency Very interesting. So it's now more plausible that a former REA employee might have the prototype stuffed away in their garage somewhere. Sellam --===============4195409195750275389==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Tue May 9 20:58:05 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 16:57:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8800175518964937698==" --===============8800175518964937698== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 9 May 2023 at 16:53, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > *In November 1975, REA Express terminated operations and filed for > bankruptcy. During the railroad strike of October 1974, the first Altair > 8800 microcomputer was lost. It had been shipped from Albuquerque to > Popular Electronics magazine in New York via REA and never arrived.* > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Express_Agency > > Very interesting. So it's now more plausible that a former REA employee > might have the prototype stuffed away in their garage somewhere. > I know that it's fun to believe that the prototype might still exist almost 50 years later, but given my experience with package shipping services I'd say that it's infinitely more probable that it somehow ended up so damaged that the shipping service just claimed that they "lost" it. After all, what's the probability that someone working for a small-time shipping service in the mid-'70s was going to have any idea about the value of a hobbyist computer, let alone any inclination to save it for 50 years? -Henry --===============8800175518964937698==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Tue May 9 21:07:51 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 16:07:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <31be4cca-bef2-068b-f71d-f0cd75f2bfdb@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9207556898936767341==" --===============9207556898936767341== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have an SEL 810A operating, which some of these tapes were likely written with. If any of the tapes are labelled I can quickly identify if it is an SEL product. -Eric On Tue, May 9, 2023, 1:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/9/23 09:36, Dani Werts via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I'm an employee with the National radio astronomy observatory here in > Socorro New Mexico. > > As part of our NGVLA upgrades, we are seeking to get rid of old data > tapes from the tape reel days of Computing. These contain things such as > the boot loaders, OS, specific collection programs and antenna movement > programs. > > I personally would hate to see these just wind up in the literal > dumpster and would like to see them sent out to a museum or an archiving > body that can preserve them and keep them safe as a dynamic part of history. > > Funny coincidence--I just processed a 1981 9 track tape from Mauna Kea > dealing with some Neptune observations. It's all binary, which makes me > wonder if the client has the program to digest it--I wonder if said > program might be in your collection of tapes. > > --Chuck > > > --===============9207556898936767341==-- From dwerts@nrao.edu Tue May 9 21:10:03 2023 From: Dani Werts To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes {External} Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 21:09:31 +0000 Message-ID: <2ad2f6c698dd47cfaf90a816f05250cc@nrao.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4873778052772267563==" --===============4873778052772267563== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric,=20 More than happy to send a reel or two your way.=20 Just give me some information and I can make it happen.=20 Danielle -----Original Message----- From: Eric Moore via cctalk =20 Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2023 3:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Eric Moore Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes {External} I have an SEL 810A operating, which some of these tapes were likely written w= ith. If any of the tapes are labelled I can quickly identify if it is an SEL = product. -Eric On Tue, May 9, 2023, 1:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/9/23 09:36, Dani Werts via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I'm an employee with the National radio astronomy observatory here=20 > > in > Socorro New Mexico. > > As part of our NGVLA upgrades, we are seeking to get rid of old data > tapes from the tape reel days of Computing. These contain things such=20 > as the boot loaders, OS, specific collection programs and antenna=20 > movement programs. > > I personally would hate to see these just wind up in the literal > dumpster and would like to see them sent out to a museum or an=20 > archiving body that can preserve them and keep them safe as a dynamic part = of history. > > Funny coincidence--I just processed a 1981 9 track tape from Mauna Kea=20 > dealing with some Neptune observations. It's all binary, which makes=20 > me wonder if the client has the program to digest it--I wonder if said=20 > program might be in your collection of tapes. > > --Chuck > > > --===============4873778052772267563==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Tue May 9 21:52:18 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 22:52:00 +0100 Message-ID: <001d01d982c0$7be3f910$73abeb30$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <01SR63LBR0CI8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8713918256129774829==" --===============8713918256129774829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Coghlan via cctalk > Sent: 09 May 2023 17:58 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Cc: Peter Coghlan > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 > > > > I am going to read your answer more carefully later. But I wanted to > > check one thing. I measured the base-emitter voltage as negative in > > both cases, and yet the TIP121 appears to be conducting on the bad > > PSU. Surely that means that the TIP121 is not working correctly? > > >=20 > I'd be very reluctant to draw any conclusions from measurements made > when the device is not biased correctly. As Brent says, there could be cur= rent > flowing through the presumably forward biased base-collector junction. > Also, this device is a not just a straighforward transistor. It's data she= et says it > is a package containing two transistors and some other components, > including a normally reverse biased diode between the collector and emitter > terminals. A positive voltage of sufficient magnitude on it's emitter coul= d be > forward biasing this diode resulting in current flow through it and therefo= re > also through the 20R resistors causing a voltage to be developed across > them. >=20 > I think a better way to determine if the TIP121 is causing excess current d= raw > on the -12V line is to make the voltage at it's emitter approximately corre= ct > and see if it then draws enough current through itself to cause the excess > current trip to operate. This current can then be measured by observing the > voltage across the 20R resistors (or the smoke coming from them if they are > not of sufficient power rating...). It should also be possible to observe = the > conditions around the zener diode and the MPSA55 and see if these > components are behaving reasonably. I will do all the suggested checks, but I won't be able to do this for a numb= er of days. However, I wanted to understand something in the meantime. The co= nditions I am applying are (I think!) what would happen during startup, and d= uring startup the control board has to make the PWM run, otherwise the main s= witching transistor won't operate and the transformer won't operate to produc= e the -12V in the first place. So surely in the startup condition I am applyi= ng (which is to supply Vstart from a bench PSU) is valid? Where is the flaw i= n my reasoning here? >=20 > Regards, > Peter. --===============8713918256129774829==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 9 23:01:19 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 16:01:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7571475979681718206==" --===============7571475979681718206== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > On Tue, May 9, 2023 at 1:03 PM steve shumaker via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> A mostly similar variation has it that they shipped the unit via Railway >> Express Agency (remember REA??) and as the story goes, it was in >> transit when REA closed their doors unexpectedly and with no warning, >> went bankrupt. On Tue, 9 May 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I don't believe I ever heard that story. Then again, I'm not sure where I > got "UPS" from. Perhaps just an assumption on my part. > I'm too young to remember REA, let alone having ever even heard of it. > Interestingly, there is a tidbit in the REA Stupidpedia article about the > Altair 8800 prototype: > *In November 1975, REA Express terminated operations and filed for > bankruptcy. During the railroad strike of October 1974, the first Altair > 8800 microcomputer was lost. It had been shipped from Albuquerque to > Popular Electronics magazine in New York via REA and never arrived.* > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Express_Agency > Very interesting. So it's now more plausible that a former REA employee > might have the prototype stuffed away in their garage somewhere. Think of a big brown UPS step-van, but GREEN. One more hypothesis: :-) It's still awaiting dellivery, but REA's deliveries are running a little late. They sent an email just last year, asking for delivery address confirmation, but the recipient assumed that it was phishing. :-) I don't know REA's late package algorithm. Back when REA was active (early 1970s), If UPS was unable to deliver a package on time, they would do it next, risking making all subsequent packages alsobe a day late. If Fedex was unable to deliver a package on time, they would put it at the END of the queue! That way, all of the subsequent packages would be on time, with just one package being horribly late. Their advertising was what PERCENTAGE OF THEIR packages were on time. I had something that really had to be on time, so I had it shipped to me Fedex. It was a WEEK late! (so that only one package was late) Both UPS and Fedex will sometimes falsely claim that they had made a delivery attempt. Does REA claim to have delivered the Altair? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred --===============7571475979681718206==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed May 10 01:43:25 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 18:43:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2483570859817818236==" --===============2483570859817818236== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 9, 2023 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Both UPS and Fedex will sometimes falsely claim that they had made a > delivery attempt. I've experienced this. > Does REA claim to have delivered the Altair? > I don't know that anyone can ever know at this point. I'm thinking to put out a small bounty for any verifiable information leading to knowledge of the fate of the shipment, and a larger bounty leading to the prototype itself. Anonimity guaranteed, no questions asked. Sellam --===============2483570859817818236==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed May 10 02:34:42 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 19:33:53 -0700 Message-ID: <34C8E26E-837E-4BD9-B30A-7F0FA96A2C30@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8096632259769790799==" --===============8096632259769790799== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not to complicate the haunt for the first Altair, but there is no guarantee t= hat it ever existed. Maybe it was an urban legend that it was shipped. If it = did, did it work? Might just buy the remaining issue of Popular Electronics f= eaturing the fake Altair.=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On May 9, 2023, at 6:43 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, May 9, 2023 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> Both UPS and Fedex will sometimes falsely claim that they had made a >> delivery attempt. >=20 >=20 > I've experienced this. >=20 >=20 >> Does REA claim to have delivered the Altair? >>=20 >=20 > I don't know that anyone can ever know at this point. >=20 > I'm thinking to put out a small bounty for any verifiable information > leading to knowledge of the fate of the shipment, and a larger bounty > leading to the prototype itself. Anonimity guaranteed, no questions asked. >=20 > Sellam --===============8096632259769790799==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Wed May 10 03:47:28 2023 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 22:47:18 -0500 Message-ID: <1229288570.1212225.1683690438427@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <7ed88560028e4ce180f3b978909c2369@nrao.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4953044608384265804==" --===============4953044608384265804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if those date to the first time I visited, where the PDP-11s were still installed :-) Are there still T-shirts available? Mine from that trip is trash :-) mcl --===============4953044608384265804==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Wed May 10 04:48:24 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Tue, 09 May 2023 22:48:05 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1229288570.1212225.1683690438427@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7610177249725023775==" --===============7610177249725023775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, May 9, 2023, 9:47 PM Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if those date to the first time I visited, where the PDP-11s > were still installed :-) > > Are there still T-shirts available? Mine from that trip is trash :-) > The pdp-11s were Gove by the time I got to tech in 85 I think mcl > --===============7610177249725023775==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed May 10 10:35:05 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 12:17:45 +0200 Message-ID: <6abe5d41-e94a-e79-2618-f2a5c4665155@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <01SR63LBR0CI8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8639627000722319866==" --===============8639627000722319866== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 9 May 2023, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Also, this device is a not just a straighforward transistor. It's data she= et > says it is a package containing two transistors and some other components, That's a Darlington power transistor with freewheeling diode and biasing=20 resistors for the second base. I really wonder why that fact has been=20 unmentioned, yet. Christian --===============8639627000722319866==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Wed May 10 11:55:07 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 12:03:36 +0100 Message-ID: <01SR75K1XYI48WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <001d01d982c0$7be3f910$73abeb30$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3405548317738932633==" --===============3405548317738932633== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I will do all the suggested checks, but I won't be able to do this for a > number of days. However, I wanted to understand something in the meantime. > The conditions I am applying are (I think!) what would happen during > startup, and during startup the control board has to make the PWM run, > otherwise the main switching transistor won't operate and the transformer > won't operate to produce the -12V in the first place. So surely in the > startup condition I am applying (which is to supply Vstart from a bench PSU) > is valid? Where is the flaw in my reasoning here? > The PSU also gives a kick start to the -12V line by applying some negative voltage probably around -15V to it via a 2k7 resistor (on sheet 1). If you are not providing this, perhaps this is why the -12V line is able to swing slightly positive and upset conditions in the -12V current sense circuit enough to prevent the PWM from starting? Even if you are providing this resistor limited -12V startup supply, could it be insufficient due to a faulty component leaking current from the -12V line to ground meaning that the -12V line does not become sufficiently negative to fulfil the startup conditions? Could the PWM be managing to start up and run for a cycle or two and then stop due to a fault in the PWM circuit somehow attempting to draw too much current from the -12V line? I don't see any connections from the -12V line to the PWM so this is probably not the case. Is this the same PSU whose chopper transistor exploded a while back? Could there be any carbon deposits remaining on the board or conductive remnants wedged under components etc causing leakage from the -12V line to ground? Regards, Peter. --===============3405548317738932633==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Wed May 10 16:11:38 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 question Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 16:11:24 +0000 Message-ID: <850748474.281807.1683735084788@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4854483069253379734==" --===============4854483069253379734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sellam, I hope=C2=A0 you do turn it up!Much cooler than an apple 1!Ed# Sent from AOL on Android=20 =20 On Tue, May 9, 2023 at 6:43 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Tue, May 9, 2023 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk= wrote: > > Both UPS and Fedex will sometimes falsely claim that they had made a > delivery attempt. I've experienced this. >=C2=A0 Does REA claim to have delivered the Altair? > I don't know that anyone can ever know at this point. I'm thinking to put out a small bounty for any verifiable information leading to knowledge of the fate of the shipment, and a larger bounty leading to the prototype itself.=C2=A0 Anonimity guaranteed, no questions ask= ed. Sellam =20 --===============4854483069253379734==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Thu May 11 06:01:12 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 22:53:44 -0700 Message-ID: <6549f2f1-4a77-9c33-2936-d872dc8271da@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7199910810611957314==" --===============7199910810611957314== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Odd fault on my Rev D KIM-1 popped up while writing code this afternoon (initially I thought I had a bug in my paper tape transmitter) - between $0280 and $029f, the upper 5 bits are stuck at zero. The rest of the address range seems fine. In particular, $0080-$009f, $0180-$019f and $0380-$039f work corr= ectly. This doesn't smell like a bad RAM chip to me or I would think there would be a bad bit throughout the entire 1K, so I suspect this is a data bus problem but I'm not sure where to start looking. Any guesses from the group? --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- require "std_disclaimer.pl"; ---------------------------------------------= -- --===============7199910810611957314==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu May 11 14:52:45 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 09:52:39 -0500 Message-ID: <6133b947-774c-7dfe-ddd0-4b950a8a35d2@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <6549f2f1-4a77-9c33-2936-d872dc8271da@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1965829196657226541==" --===============1965829196657226541== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/11/23 00:53, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > Odd fault on my Rev D KIM-1 popped up while writing code this afternoon > (initially I thought I had a bug in my paper tape transmitter) - between $0= 280 > and $029f, the upper 5 bits are stuck at zero. The rest of the address range > seems fine. In particular, $0080-$009f, $0180-$019f and $0380-$039f work co= rrectly. > > This doesn't smell like a bad RAM chip to me or I would think there would b= e a > bad bit throughout the entire 1K, so I suspect this is a data bus problem b= ut > I'm not sure where to start looking. Any guesses from the group? > Maybe an I/O device is sending on the bus when it should not=20 be.=C2=A0 Are there any devices that have a register range of=20 XX80 to XX9F? That probably needs the XX to be something like FF for=20 proper operation, but if the gate that decodes that part of=20 the address has failed, this might be what you would see. Jon --===============1965829196657226541==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Thu May 11 15:47:00 2023 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] OT: A list member in Japan? Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 11:46:28 -0400 Message-ID: <04da01d9841f$c0c6d8d0$42548a70$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <04da01d9841f$c0c6d8d0$42548a70$.ref@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4518642738520964135==" --===============4518642738520964135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a list member in Japan or soon traveling to Japan? I want to acquire something (not really vintage computer related) and the seller does not take paypal and I can't get funds to them. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============4518642738520964135==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Thu May 11 16:02:32 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: A list member in Japan? Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 09:02:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04da01d9841f$c0c6d8d0$42548a70$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0139702451692563111==" --===============0139702451692563111== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 8:47 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Is there a list member in Japan or soon traveling to Japan? I want to > acquire something (not really vintage computer related) and the seller does > not take paypal and I can't get funds to them. > Can you buy it via buyee.jp? --===============0139702451692563111==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Thu May 11 16:09:13 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 08:59:54 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6133b947-774c-7dfe-ddd0-4b950a8a35d2@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3517752205907238400==" --===============3517752205907238400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Odd fault on my Rev D KIM-1 popped up while writing code this afternoon >> (initially I thought I had a bug in my paper tape transmitter) - between $= 0280 >> and $029f, the upper 5 bits are stuck at zero. The rest of the address ran= ge >> seems fine. In particular, $0080-$009f, $0180-$019f and $0380-$039f work >> correctly. >> >> This doesn't smell like a bad RAM chip to me or I would think there would = be a >> bad bit throughout the entire 1K, so I suspect this is a data bus problem = but >> I'm not sure where to start looking. Any guesses from the group? >> > Maybe an I/O device is sending on the bus when it should not be.=C2=A0 Are = there any > devices that have a register range of XX80 to XX9F? (By the way, I had a typo in my message: it's the upper *six* bits, not five.) I thought about this, but the KIM is a pretty simple system. The only memory mapped device in that range (really, on the entire unit) are the RIOTs, and their RAM at $1780 is fine and does not echo. The KIM only does address decoding for 8K and echoes the rest, so the same fault is mapped at $2280, $4280, etc. I would think this would still suggest data is the problem. I suppose I could randomly replace the RAM and see what changes but again it seems weird to have a fault so neatly aligned and only in a specific range. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ---= -- --===============3517752205907238400==-- From cramcram@gmail.com Thu May 11 16:14:16 2023 From: Marc Howard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Are there any useful OCR programs for scanning old listings and producing text with proper formatting Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 12:12:50 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5471253470420142511==" --===============5471253470420142511== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Marc Howard [image: Attachments]May 10, 2023, 8:58 PM (15 hours ago) to cctalk-owner I have some listings I want to convert to ASCII. They're line printer output from a computer that existed from the mid-sixties to the early 70's (Agage AGT series). I can't find any OCR package that can take scanner output (either PDF or JPEG) and convert it to text with roughly the same number of spaces between words as was there originally. Seems like it would be an easy task. The input is non-proportional text from line printer output (actually it might have been printed on a Diablo hytype). And yet all I get is most of the characters with either no or single spacing between words. And it misses quite a bit of scanned characters at that. Anyone have any good experiences trying to do this? I've attached a PDF scan if you have a way to do a test run. Thanks, Marc Howard --===============5471253470420142511==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 11 16:24:15 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Are there any useful OCR programs for scanning old listings and producing text with proper formatting Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 12:23:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7828322123959987174==" --===============7828322123959987174== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 11, 2023, at 12:12 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Marc Howard > [image: Attachments]May 10, 2023, 8:58=E2=80=AFPM (15 hours ago) > to cctalk-owner > I have some listings I want to convert to ASCII. They're line printer > output from a computer that existed from the mid-sixties to the early 70's > (Agage AGT series). >=20 > I can't find any OCR package that can take scanner output (either PDF or > JPEG) and convert it to text with roughly the same number of spaces between > words as was there originally. >=20 > Seems like it would be an easy task. The input is non-proportional text > from line printer output (actually it might have been printed on a Diablo > hytype). And yet all I get is most of the characters with either no or > single spacing between words. And it misses quite a bit of scanned > characters at that. Tesseract supposedly can do this. There's a Tesseract fork, I don't remember= the name, that was tweaked specifically for listings. I believe it was a Ja= panese project. I often use ABBYY FineReader, which does a good job with tough source materia= l and has a good training feature. It will not lose spaces entirely, but as = you said, it does collapse multiple spaces. For dealing with listings of str= uctured material, like assembler output listings, I found that telling the pr= ogram to interpret the page as tabular material works well. That (usually) p= reserves line endings which is also important, and it breaks the material up = into columns so at least you can do a "pretty printer" type of cleanup on the= rows of "table fields" that result. paul --===============7828322123959987174==-- From holger.veit@iais.fraunhofer.de Thu May 11 22:02:21 2023 From: "Veit, Holger" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Did Intel's Insite User Program Library survive? Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 23:54:59 +0200 Message-ID: <3e3709f7-176e-1ad9-022b-9e596ea1ee9a@iais.fraunhofer.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4946588274028885304==" --===============4946588274028885304== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The PDF at=20 https://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/insite/1983_Insite_Users_Program_Library_= Catalog.pdf=20 lists various old user submitted software which could have been ordered=20 from Intel those days. Is there anything of that archived and downloadable somewhere? Regards Holger --===============4946588274028885304==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Thu May 11 23:08:35 2023 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Intel's Insite User Program Library survive? Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 16:07:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3e3709f7-176e-1ad9-022b-9e596ea1ee9a@iais.fraunhofer.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0295404841518049979==" --===============0295404841518049979== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Holt, You might ask the Intel Museum - contact info at the bottom of the web page here: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/company-overview/intel-museum.html When I was at Intel there was a small but active team in Folsom that was archiving software, IP, and other material for preservation. That may be a lead. I left Intel in 2014 so that group and effort could still be active, could be long gone, or anything in-between. Good luck! Lee On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 3:02=E2=80=AFPM Veit, Holger via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > The PDF at > > https://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/insite/1983_Insite_Users_Program_Librar= y_Catalog.pdf > lists various old user submitted software which could have been ordered > from Intel those days. > > Is there anything of that archived and downloadable somewhere? > > Regards > Holger > > > --=20 Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============0295404841518049979==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 11 23:24:11 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Did Intel's Insite User Program Library survive? Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 16:24:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3e3709f7-176e-1ad9-022b-9e596ea1ee9a@iais.fraunhofer.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2550885764175688714==" --===============2550885764175688714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/11/23 14:54, Veit, Holger via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > The PDF at > https://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/insite/1983_Insite_Users_Program_Librar= y_Catalog.pdf lists various old user submitted software which could have been= ordered from Intel those days. >=20 > Is there anything of that archived and downloadable somewhere? There appears to be some software here: https://www.intel-vintage.info/intelsofware.htm --Chuck --===============2550885764175688714==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Fri May 12 02:41:28 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 19:41:19 -0700 Message-ID: <50bca631-e4c5-7b69-dd08-d75029b6a7a1@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5141811644996663999==" --===============5141811644996663999== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I thought about this, but the KIM is a pretty simple system. The only memory > mapped device in that range (really, on the entire unit) are the RIOTs, and > their RAM at $1780 is fine and does not echo. >=20 > The KIM only does address decoding for 8K and echoes the rest, so the same > fault is mapped at $2280, $4280, etc. I would think this would still suggest > data is the problem. >=20 > I suppose I could randomly replace the RAM and see what changes but again it > seems weird to have a fault so neatly aligned and only in a specific range. With a simple step through program, *=3D$0000 r=3D$0280 inc w lda w sta $f9 sta r sta r+1 lda r sta $fb lda r+1 sta $fa jsr $1f1f jsr $1f6a cmp #$12 bne *-8 jsr $1f1f jsr $1f6a cmp #$15 bne *-5 jmp $0000 w .byt 0 it's actually an artifact of the monitor that the upper 6 were clear. Actuall= y, the stuck bit is entirely bit 2 (i.e., it goes 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 8 9 a b 8 9 a b and the high nybble is OK). Now that sounds more like a bad RAM chip, but why would it be *just* those addresses? Does that sound like a plausible failure = mode? --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ---------= -- --===============5141811644996663999==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Fri May 12 05:47:48 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 22:47:41 -0700 Message-ID: <773BDA96-EAE6-4FA1-BCB4-7CE5FC569921@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <50bca631-e4c5-7b69-dd08-d75029b6a7a1@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7138966362487683779==" --===============7138966362487683779== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-May-11, at 7:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > it's actually an artifact of the monitor that the upper 6 were clear. Actua= lly, > the stuck bit is entirely bit 2 (i.e., it goes >=20 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f > 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 8 9 a b 8 9 a b >=20 > and the high nybble is OK). Now that sounds more like a bad RAM chip, but w= hy > would it be *just* those addresses? Does that sound like a plausible failur= e mode? So I take it the KIM1 uses 6102 1K*1 RAM chips. (I'm seeing some modern redrawings, but is there no original schematic online= ?) Any RAM chip internally has the bits organized in a matrix. I haven't found a proper 6102 datasheet, but the most likely array size is ob= viously 32 * 32. Your bad address range of xx80::xx9F is a span of 32 on base-32 boundaries. So a failed internal driver or sense-amp for one row or column of one chip wo= uld produce your fault. That's a pretty plausible failure mode. Don't know how much luck you'll have finding a 6102. Cursorily it looks like it's just a CMOS version of the 2102, and pin-compati= ble, so that might be an alternative. The 2102 comes in low-power flavors (often but not always called 21L02). It also comes in various speeds so you might have to watch that, something li= ke a 21L02-3 might do. --===============7138966362487683779==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri May 12 12:05:42 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f Date: Fri, 12 May 2023 08:05:33 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <50bca631-e4c5-7b69-dd08-d75029b6a7a1@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1033635574936903320==" --===============1033635574936903320== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 11, 2023, at 10:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> I thought about this, but the KIM is a pretty simple system. The only memo= ry >> mapped device in that range (really, on the entire unit) are the RIOTs, and >> their RAM at $1780 is fine and does not echo. >>=20 >> The KIM only does address decoding for 8K and echoes the rest, so the same >> fault is mapped at $2280, $4280, etc. I would think this would still sugge= st >> data is the problem. >>=20 >> I suppose I could randomly replace the RAM and see what changes but again = it >> seems weird to have a fault so neatly aligned and only in a specific range. >=20 > ... > and the high nybble is OK). Now that sounds more like a bad RAM chip, but w= hy > would it be *just* those addresses? Does that sound like a plausible failur= e mode? Yes, if they are small RAM chips. For example, in a 1k DRAM chip (and perhap= s in slightly larger sizes too) the row size could be 32, which means that th= e failure of one row on one RAM chip would cause the failure of an aligned 32= byte range. paul --===============1033635574936903320==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Fri May 12 15:17:44 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f Date: Fri, 12 May 2023 08:17:37 -0700 Message-ID: <030ff15e-b2d9-d9c8-99e5-753d4732d673@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4729151469697694072==" --===============4729151469697694072== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. This board has NEC D2102AL-4 SRAMs on i= t, so I ordered a couple MM2102AN-4s which look equivalent. I'll swap one in when it arrives and see if that's the problem. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- I don't like losing anyways. -- Usain Bolt -------------------------------= -- --===============4729151469697694072==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri May 12 15:46:13 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f Date: Fri, 12 May 2023 10:46:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <50bca631-e4c5-7b69-dd08-d75029b6a7a1@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8613983117975699730==" --===============8613983117975699730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/11/23 21:41, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> I thought about this, but the KIM is a pretty simple system. The only memo= ry >> mapped device in that range (really, on the entire unit) are the RIOTs, and >> their RAM at $1780 is fine and does not echo. >> >> The KIM only does address decoding for 8K and echoes the rest, so the same >> fault is mapped at $2280, $4280, etc. I would think this would still sugge= st >> data is the problem. >> >> I suppose I could randomly replace the RAM and see what changes but again = it >> seems weird to have a fault so neatly aligned and only in a specific range. > With a simple step through program, > > *=3D$0000 > r=3D$0280 > > inc w > lda w > sta $f9 > sta r > sta r+1 > lda r > sta $fb > lda r+1 > sta $fa > > jsr $1f1f > jsr $1f6a > cmp #$12 > bne *-8 > > jsr $1f1f > jsr $1f6a > cmp #$15 > bne *-5 > > jmp $0000 > > w .byt 0 > > it's actually an artifact of the monitor that the upper 6 were clear. Actua= lly, > the stuck bit is entirely bit 2 (i.e., it goes > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f > 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 8 9 a b 8 9 a b > > and the high nybble is OK). Now that sounds more like a bad RAM chip, but w= hy > would it be *just* those addresses? Does that sound like a plausible failur= e mode? > If the failure affects the EPROM monitor,then any results=20 you get from the monitor are suspect. And, the c,d showing as 8,9 also fits the pattern of bad=20 locations reported earlier! Jon --===============8613983117975699730==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Fri May 12 15:51:43 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f Date: Fri, 12 May 2023 08:51:36 -0700 Message-ID: <427dfce5-5929-4952-b278-9c8706a3e6e4@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8839061689601968934==" --===============8839061689601968934== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > If the failure affects the EPROM monitor,then any results you get from the > monitor are suspect. No, what I mean is, the appearance of the upper six bits being dead was becau= se of how the monitor shifts in data from the keypad. Since bit 2 was always zer= o, it would look like everything above it was zero too because the bit shifts carried the error forward. A direct brute-force step through showed the actual issue and I should have just done that in the first place. The monitor works properly everywhere else outside of those locations, including from the TTY. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Ninety-nine percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. -----------------= -- --===============8839061689601968934==-- From trash80@internode.on.net Sat May 13 02:08:55 2023 From: trash80@internode.on.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Are there any useful OCR programs for scanning old listings and producing text with proper formatting Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 12:03:49 +1000 Message-ID: <01e801d9853f$28fd67f0$7af837d0$@internode.on.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3622555376262312488==" --===============3622555376262312488== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An issue dear to my heart - I have quite a quantity of documentation here to = scan so I did quite a bit of homework and testing on this. It may not exactly= be your issue, but I hope it helps.=20 For me, the issue was the quality of the documentation - print back in those = days was quite variable of course and over time documents may have deteriorat= ed. I find Adobe Acrobat the best tool using the ClearScan method for OCR. Most = OCR tools working with PDF place a searchable image or overlay in the documen= t. This can bloat file size and is not the same as ClearScan - retaining reas= onable file sizes was one of my criteria. I specifically tested this and foun= d Clear Scan documents to have smaller file size that OCR processing using ot= her methods. On my experience Clear Scan also tended to improve the quality o= f the type while faithfully preserving it.=20 For documents that I obtained as PDFs that ran into trouble being processed l= ike this, I found that exporting the file to TIFF and then creating a new PDF= from the TIFFs worked best (doing this is like dry cleaning for PDF). Downside - Acrobat is probably the most expensive of the PDF tools out here. This might help explain it a bit better: https://acrobatusers.com/tutorials/better-pdf-ocr-clearscan-smaller-looks-bet= ter/ There are some open-source alternatives that use a similar approach to ClearS= can but I have not specifically tested or evaluated them viz: https://github.com/ncraun/smoothscan Hope this helps! Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: Marc Howard via cctalk =20 Sent: Friday, May 12, 2023 2:13 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Cc: Marc Howard Subject: [cctalk] Are there any useful OCR programs for scanning old listings= and producing text with proper formatting Marc Howard [image: Attachments]May 10, 2023, 8:58=E2=80=AFPM (15 hours ago) to cctalk-ow= ner I have some listings I want to convert to ASCII. They're line printer ou= tput from a computer that existed from the mid-sixties to the early 70's (Aga= ge AGT series). I can't find any OCR package that can take scanner output (either PDF or JPEG) and convert it to text with roughly the same number of spaces between w= ords as was there originally. Seems like it would be an easy task. The input is non-proportional text from= line printer output (actually it might have been printed on a Diablo hytype)= . And yet all I get is most of the characters with either no or single spaci= ng between words. And it misses quite a bit of scanned characters at that. Anyone have any good experiences trying to do this? I've attached a PDF scan= if you have a way to do a test run. Thanks, Marc Howard --===============3622555376262312488==-- From deramp5113@yahoo.com Sat May 13 16:10:44 2023 From: Mike Douglas To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Altair 8800 question Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 08:12:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5649612104603976814==" --===============5649612104603976814== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a reproduction of the metal nameplate strip that looks very close to t= he original if you want one. $10 plus shipping. Mike D --===============5649612104603976814==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Sat May 13 21:48:49 2023 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 21:48:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <427dfce5-5929-4952-b278-9c8706a3e6e4@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3453533819629113241==" --===============3453533819629113241== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is unlikely that a 6 bits in a byte will fail, caused by a RAM, since each= RAM chip is only one bit, not a byte. It is more likely that one of the ROM chips is being doubly decoded. Since th= ese are decoded as 1 K blocks, it is likely a problem with the address block = decoder, the 74LS145. Just my guess. Dwight ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 12, 2023 8:51 AM To: Jon Elson via cctalk Cc: Cameron Kaiser Subject: [cctalk] Re: KIM-1 stuck bits from $280 to $29f > If the failure affects the EPROM monitor,then any results you get from the > monitor are suspect. No, what I mean is, the appearance of the upper six bits being dead was becau= se of how the monitor shifts in data from the keypad. Since bit 2 was always zer= o, it would look like everything above it was zero too because the bit shifts carried the error forward. A direct brute-force step through showed the actual issue and I should have just done that in the first place. The monitor works properly everywhere else outside of those locations, including from the TTY. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.com -- Ninety-nine percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. -----------------= -- --===============3453533819629113241==-- From cube1@charter.net Sun May 14 01:54:53 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Continental 50 Pin connector vs. AMP 200276 50 pin connector - same? Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 20:54:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5fb3f9f0-c08b-87f2-c1b0-fff3c0503a8b@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7307753793541124519==" --===============7307753793541124519== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Will reply in answer myself on this one: Firstly the paper tape reader is an HP 2748B - sorry about that typo (blush). Secondly the AMP connector I acquired was NOT compatible with the Continental connector on the paper tape reader. The pins on the AMP connector, while larger than those on the Winchester connector, were still a shade too small to make a reliable connection - the connector was clearly loose when mated. Which brings up the question: does anyone have a spare cable or 50 pin male Continental connector that I could purchase/trade for? Thanks. JRJ On 4/22/2023 6:14 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I have an HP 2875B paper tape drive that I want to interface to.  It has > a 50 pin block connector (using well under 1/2 the pins).  The connector > manufacturer was Continental. > > I have already discovered, the hard way, that it is not a winchester > connector - the pins on the 50 pin Winchester connector I just obtained > via ePay that otherwise fits are too small in diameter and won't make > contact.  I *could* increase their diameter using solder - but -- yuck. > > The other connectors of this sort I am familiar with that have the same > general overall size and pinout were made by AMP.  Does any one know if > the AMP connectors and the Continental connectors would be compatible? > > Thanks. > > JRJ --===============7307753793541124519==-- From rich@metasoftweb.com Sun May 14 13:47:19 2023 From: Rich To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] CPT Phoenix Jr system unit? Monitor and Keyboard Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 19:46:06 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1890172941373322686==" --===============1890172941373322686== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Chris, I saw this old post while searching for stuff related to the CPT Phoenix word= processors. I was an engineer at CPT Corp. from 1978 thru 1989 and helped d= esign the CPT 8100, 8500, 9000, and Phoenix systems. The original monitor that I have has burned-out and I am searching for a repl= acement. You seem to have found/acquired the exact monitor that I have been = looking for! Would you care to sell the monitor, and keyboard too, to me? I would be most= appreciative. It would certainly find welcome home, back with one of its or= iginal designers. Best regards, Rich Jones Metasoft, Inc. --===============1890172941373322686==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sun May 14 13:47:25 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Using Teledisk 2.16 to read old RX50 images Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 17:33:14 -0400 Message-ID: <51830c72-a399-842b-22e3-b8ea7aababd4@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4578528793309482308==" --===============4578528793309482308== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi! Well, after a good bit of work I have finally gotten my Compaq XE4000 up and running with Windows 98, the BIOS all set, a new battery, and of course a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy that seems to be working. I'd now like to start sucking the rare images I have here on RX50 into a TD0 format which can be converted to a .IMG format which can then be used on the mighty GoTek's to allow people to run such operating systems as: Micro RSTS 2.1 Micro RSX (I forget the exact version) Micro-11 Maint disks Ultrix 11 Version 2.0 (all 30 disks) Before I start popping these in I have a question: I just did a test using an XXDP floppy and the message I got included Single sided, double density Interleave 1:1 Sector Size is 512 And then for each track from 1 to 82 (?) it said "Data, No ID adding sector 110" Is this right? Something else I might need to do for reading RX50's? Thanks! CZ --===============4578528793309482308==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sun May 14 13:58:50 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Teledisk 2.16 to read old RX50 images Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 07:58:31 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <51830c72-a399-842b-22e3-b8ea7aababd4@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1947232213774634951==" --===============1947232213774634951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, May 14, 2023, 7:47 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hi! > > Well, after a good bit of work I have finally gotten my Compaq XE4000 up > and running with Windows 98, the BIOS all set, a new battery, and of > course a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy that seems to be working. > I'd avoid teledisk. I'd look at Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk. It produces those img files directly. It's linked from http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img/index.htm I'd now like to start sucking the rare images I have here on RX50 into a > TD0 format which can be converted to a .IMG format which can then be > used on the mighty GoTek's to allow people to run such operating systems > as: > > Micro RSTS 2.1 > Micro RSX (I forget the exact version) > Micro-11 Maint disks > Ultrix 11 Version 2.0 (all 30 disks) > Oh, these are interesting. http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/floppyimages/rx50/ Has some interesting goodies too, but none of these excrpt maybe yhe Micro RSTS stuff. Maybe if you get them imaged, you could send them to Al. If you are in Denver by chance, I'd be happy to help image these too. Warner Before I start popping these in I have a question: I just did a test > using an XXDP floppy and the message I got included > Single sided, double density > Interleave 1:1 > Sector Size is 512 > > And then for each track from 1 to 82 (?) it said > "Data, No ID adding sector 110" > > Is this right? Something else I might need to do for reading RX50's? > Thanks! > CZ > --===============1947232213774634951==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Sun May 14 14:55:49 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Teledisk 2.16 to read old RX50 images Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 07:55:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <51830c72-a399-842b-22e3-b8ea7aababd4@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2639745987642105699==" --===============2639745987642105699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 13 May 2023, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hi! > > Well, after a good bit of work I have finally gotten my Compaq XE4000 up an= d=20 > running with Windows 98, the BIOS all set, a new battery, and of course a=20 > 1.2mb 5.25 floppy that seems to be working. > > I'd now like to start sucking the rare images I have here on RX50 into a TD= 0=20 > format which can be converted to a .IMG format which can then be used on th= e=20 > mighty GoTek's to allow people to run such operating systems as: > Chris, you might want to find someone local to you with an AppleSauce -=20 it's going to do a much better job on those RX50's and will output=20 (simultaneously even!) IMG & IMD images. It can also create amazing flux-level images (which also include literal=20 images of the cookie contents) that can then be output to IMG, IMD, etc. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============2639745987642105699==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun May 14 16:12:39 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Teledisk 2.16 to read old RX50 images Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 09:12:28 -0700 Message-ID: <6853a31f-c16c-e8d8-9bc8-0566a994078c@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3507618411513760770==" --===============3507618411513760770== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/14/23 06:58, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, May 14, 2023, 7:47 AM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> Hi! >> >> Well, after a good bit of work I have finally gotten my Compaq XE4000 up >> and running with Windows 98, the BIOS all set, a new battery, and of >> course a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy that seems to be working. >> >=20 > I'd avoid teledisk. I'd look at Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk. It produces > those img files directly. It's linked from > http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img/index.htm ImageDisk may not be the answer either. A problem that crops up if you're trying to run TeleDisk under a Windows command prompt. That messes with the timing. TD is intended for use under real-mode DOS. That is, if you're in windows, shut down to a DOS command prompt. Do NOT assume that the Windows command prompt out of the GUI will do the job. Or just boot MS-DOS. There are certainly Linux programs that can also read RX50 floppies. If you want a brute-force read every sector on an RX50 program, I can pass that on to see if it works better for you. It knows the format of an RX50 disk, so doesn't have to guess. I use it myself (the author of TeleDisk), though increasingly, I'm relying on MCU-based solutions to handle floppies. I haven't touched TD since 1999, when we sold the rights to the program. It blows my mind that it's in use 24 years after its last incarnation. --Chuck --===============3507618411513760770==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sun May 14 17:03:28 2023 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Teledisk 2.16 to read old RX50 images Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 10:25:16 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6962809459949442631==" --===============6962809459949442631== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds good. Imagedisk however produces imd files, need to then convert to im= d files with the imdu /b command. Cz On May 14, 2023 9:58:31 AM EDT, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >On Sun, May 14, 2023, 7:47 AM Chris Zach via cctalk >wrote: > >> Hi! >> >> Well, after a good bit of work I have finally gotten my Compaq XE4000 up >> and running with Windows 98, the BIOS all set, a new battery, and of >> course a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy that seems to be working. >> > >I'd avoid teledisk. I'd look at Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk. It produces >those img files directly. It's linked from >http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img/index.htm > >I'd now like to start sucking the rare images I have here on RX50 into a >> TD0 format which can be converted to a .IMG format which can then be >> used on the mighty GoTek's to allow people to run such operating systems >> as: >> >> Micro RSTS 2.1 >> Micro RSX (I forget the exact version) >> Micro-11 Maint disks >> Ultrix 11 Version 2.0 (all 30 disks) >> > >Oh, these are interesting. > >http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/floppyimages/rx50/ > >Has some interesting goodies too, but none of these excrpt maybe yhe Micro >RSTS stuff. Maybe if you get them imaged, you could send them to Al. > >If you are in Denver by chance, I'd be happy to help image these too. > >Warner > >Before I start popping these in I have a question: I just did a test >> using an XXDP floppy and the message I got included >> Single sided, double density >> Interleave 1:1 >> Sector Size is 512 >> >> And then for each track from 1 to 82 (?) it said >> "Data, No ID adding sector 110" >> >> Is this right? Something else I might need to do for reading RX50's? >> > > > >Thanks! >> CZ >> --===============6962809459949442631==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun May 14 17:24:36 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Teledisk 2.16 to read old RX50 images Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 10:24:25 -0700 Message-ID: <2a569208-e92a-fba9-7d56-c0f36d7857b7@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <51830c72-a399-842b-22e3-b8ea7aababd4@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0330274258446746352==" --===============0330274258446746352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try this RX50 reader under real-mode MSDOS: https://icedrive.net/s/hNkxwzf61jfRai8jty6xRkbhxGFF Writes a sector-by-sector no-frills image file. --Chuck --===============0330274258446746352==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Mon May 15 06:04:09 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Teledisk 2.16 to read old RX50 images Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 20:26:30 -0400 Message-ID: <37dca549-6e67-d7fd-20be-2ac4541f7b27@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <6853a31f-c16c-e8d8-9bc8-0566a994078c@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5032278193454034473==" --===============5032278193454034473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks everyone for the comments. I managed to put up the IMD (not the IMG images as I am a bit too busy to convert) for MicroRSTS and MicroRSX up on my web site at: https://www.crystel.com/pdp/os Give them a try on an emulator and see if they load up the OS properly. Have to go back to work, so won't be able to fiddle with this more for awhile. If they do work then I'll tackle the Ultrix and some other things in the next week or two. CZ --===============5032278193454034473==-- From mattislind@gmail.com Mon May 15 06:51:42 2023 From: Mattis Lind To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Teledisk 2.16 to read old RX50 images Date: Mon, 15 May 2023 08:51:21 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <37dca549-6e67-d7fd-20be-2ac4541f7b27@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9008509128645940095==" --===============9008509128645940095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Great work! Can I ask you to snap a photo of each disk and store it along with the IMD-files with the same name but a JPG extension? It greatly helps when trying to use the disk-images to have this kind of meta information. Thanks, /Mattis Den mån 15 maj 2023 kl 08:04 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > Thanks everyone for the comments. I managed to put up the IMD (not the > IMG images as I am a bit too busy to convert) for MicroRSTS and MicroRSX > up on my web site at: > > https://www.crystel.com/pdp/os > > Give them a try on an emulator and see if they load up the OS properly. > Have to go back to work, so won't be able to fiddle with this more for > awhile. If they do work then I'll tackle the Ultrix and some other > things in the next week or two. > > CZ > --===============9008509128645940095==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon May 15 15:06:12 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Are there any useful OCR programs for scanning old listings and producing text with proper formatting Date: Mon, 15 May 2023 11:05:51 -0400 Message-ID: <8EA03792-D2E4-469D-8EF7-93DAFE7ABE46@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <01e801d9853f$28fd67f0$7af837d0$@internode.on.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3619860961030795870==" --===============3619860961030795870== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 12, 2023, at 10:03 PM, trash80--- via cctalk wrote: >=20 > An issue dear to my heart - I have quite a quantity of documentation here t= o scan so I did quite a bit of homework and testing on this. It may not exact= ly be your issue, but I hope it helps.=20 >=20 > For me, the issue was the quality of the documentation - print back in thos= e days was quite variable of course and over time documents may have deterior= ated. >=20 > I find Adobe Acrobat the best tool using the ClearScan method for OCR.=20 Admittedly it's been quite a while, but back years ago Adobe offered for a wh= ile a free OCR plugin for Adobe Acrobat (full edition). I tried it on one or= two documents -- for example a high quality scan of the Ethernet V2 spec (DI= X spec). It sort of worked, but the results were very bad. No training capability, an= d the editing features were even worse than the already pathetically bad PDF = editing features of Acrobat. I also used it on a scan of the A10-A flight manual. Same sort of outcome: i= t sort of worked but really poor quality. After that experience I tried Tesseract, which at the time wasn't ready yet. = (That was before the current neural net version.) Ended up buying ABBYY Fin= eReader, which was much better, particularly because it has a good quality tr= aining mechanism. I've still encountered material so bad that it isn't useab= le but a lot of stuff, including line printer listings, it can handle well en= ough. One of these days I should try the new Tesseract. =20 paul --===============3619860961030795870==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Mon May 15 17:36:47 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Continental 50 Pin connector vs. AMP 200276 50 pin connector - same? Date: Mon, 15 May 2023 10:36:28 -0700 Message-ID: <426213E3-E430-4A17-9BB4-D1B5A7CEA4B4@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0920564992733342383==" --===============0920564992733342383== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 4/22/2023 6:14 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> I have an HP 2875B paper tape drive that I want to interface to. It has a= 50 pin block connector (using well under 1/2 the pins). The connector manuf= acturer was Continental. >> I have already discovered, the hard way, that it is not a winchester conne= ctor - the pins on the 50 pin Winchester connector I just obtained via ePay t= hat otherwise fits are too small in diameter and won't make contact. I *coul= d* increase their diameter using solder - but -- yuck. >> The other connectors of this sort I am familiar with that have the same ge= neral overall size and pinout were made by AMP. Does any one know if the AMP= connectors and the Continental connectors would be compatible? On 2023-May-13, at 6:54 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Will reply in answer myself on this one: >=20 > Firstly the paper tape reader is an HP 2748B - sorry about that typo (blush= ). >=20 > Secondly the AMP connector I acquired was NOT compatible with the Continent= al connector on the paper tape reader. The pins on the AMP connector, while = larger than those on the Winchester connector, were still a shade too small t= o make a reliable connection - the connector was clearly loose when mated. >=20 > Which brings up the question: does anyone have a spare cable or 50 pin male= Continental connector that I could purchase/trade for? No spare connector, sorry. If it's of any help though, on my 2748 connector (the cord-plug-in end) the m= ale pin diameter is 0.061 ~ 0.062" (measured with a cheap micrometer, perhaps= the actual spec is 1/16=3D0.0625). I understand the confusion - I have on hand 3 different examples of ~0.062" d= ia. male pins. Cursorily they look the same and plug into the same female pin= , but are different in length and in the shoulder-housing-insert area. Then t= here are similar-looking pins that are ~0.040" diameter, which may be what yo= u acquired. These kind of look like they might be the 0.062 diameter: https://www.ebay.com/itm/115573632341 whereas these look like they could be the 0.040 diameter: https://www.ebay.com/itm/115573630849 But then you have to watch out to be getting the correct type of pin for the = housing one is using, for as stated above they can differ in that section of = the pin even though of the same mating diameter. --===============0920564992733342383==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue May 16 03:21:26 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Mon, 15 May 2023 22:16:07 -0500 Message-ID: <0132bf48-f83b-f3c2-65e1-65fd3dd389dd@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2383501056828122951==" --===============2383501056828122951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At the most recent CoCoFEST!, I brought home the old Glenside Club Computer Hard Drive.  The mechanism is an ST-251, and I was wondering if someone on-list would be willing to attempt to pull data off the drive. I have no ability to configure to read this drive type, and the data is not precious or anything, I just though we should try to pull it off for historical sake. I was not in the club when teh drive was in use, so I do not know what could be on it.  I assume BBS data, but it could be anything. Happy to post to someone who wants to give it a go.  If the drive needs to be destroyed to get the data, or if attempting to read the data destroys the drive, I will not hold anyone responsible. I don't even need the drive back, just data if it is recoverable. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============2383501056828122951==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue May 16 15:12:43 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 16:12:14 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8574372327014245010==" --===============8574372327014245010== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As you know I've recently restored a couple of CP/M luggable computers. I also have many other machines with floppy disk drives, 3", 3.5", 5.25" and 8" The machine I connect to the internet with is a more modern laptop runnng Windows 8.1. Essentially its only interfaces are USB ports. I would like to be able to : Download disk images (I assume in .IMD or .TD0 format) and write them to real floppy disks to use in my old machnes If possble, for the more common filesystems like MS-DOS or CP/M, be able to work with these images on the modern PC at the file level. For example, if I download a CP/M progam as a .COM file I'd like to be able to put it into a disk image of a Philips P2000C disk, then transfer that image to a real floppy and put it in a drive on the Philips machine. I understand there are designed based on a modern microcontroller that connecct to a USB port and a disk drive. Software on the PC translates between the disk image and the accurately-timed pulses corresponding to flux transitions on the disk. This unit links to a real disk drive, you run the software and it reads/writes a real disk in said disk drive. Now... I can handle a 'scope. I can handle a logic analyser. I can handle a soldering iron. I can handle an engineer's lathe. I can rebuld and align floppy disk drives. I can program most 8-bit micros along with PERQ microcode, PDP11 mahine code, etc BUT I don't have a clue when it comes to modern PCs, modern microcontrollers or USB ports. So what I am asking is for people to describe what to do as in : Buy this microcontroller board Buy this blank PCB and solder the components given in the BOM to it. Download this software and install it by doing this. Connect a standard floppy drive to this connector Run the software, specify the disk image file and sit back. -tony --===============8574372327014245010==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue May 16 15:21:16 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 11:21:08 -0400 Message-ID: <79BE6825-98CB-45E9-8F24-542D3B9522A7@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3127502842619714996==" --===============3127502842619714996== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 16, 2023, at 11:12 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >=20 > As you know I've recently restored a couple of CP/M luggable > computers. I also have many other machines with floppy disk drives, > 3", 3.5", 5.25" and 8" >=20 > The machine I connect to the internet with is a more modern laptop > runnng Windows 8.1. Essentially its only interfaces are USB ports. >=20 > I would like to be able to : >=20 > Download disk images (I assume in .IMD or .TD0 format) and write them > to real floppy disks to use in my old machnes >=20 > ... >=20 > So what I am asking is for people to describe what to do as in : > Buy this microcontroller board ... My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a standard PC floppy drive (a du= al drive if possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support). Then run Linux, use= the "fdparm" tool to set the media format if necessary, and copy the image w= ith "dd". Roughly speaking this is how I read and write RX50 floppies. More precisely,= I usually do it with my "rstsflx" tool, which (a) understands RSTS file syst= ems so I can manipulate things at that level, and (b) knows about RX50 interl= eaving and how to issue the ioctl that sets 10 sector per track format. paul --===============3127502842619714996==-- From kgober@gmail.com Tue May 16 20:01:15 2023 From: Kenneth Gober To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 16:00:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0132bf48-f83b-f3c2-65e1-65fd3dd389dd@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8962620278552522279==" --===============8962620278552522279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 11:21=E2=80=AFPM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > At the most recent CoCoFEST!, I brought home the old Glenside Club > Computer Hard Drive. The mechanism is an ST-251, and I was wondering if > someone on-list would be willing to attempt to pull data off the drive. > In my experience, reading the data from this type of drive is dramatically simplified if you have the original controller it was attached to. If you can get your hands on it, this job will be many many times easier, and doable without special equipment. -ken --===============8962620278552522279==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue May 16 20:16:29 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 15:16:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3413369566480544461==" --===============3413369566480544461== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/16/2023 3:00 PM, Kenneth Gober wrote: > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 11:21 PM Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: > > At the most recent CoCoFEST!, I brought home the old Glenside Club > Computer Hard Drive.  The mechanism is an ST-251, and I was > wondering if > someone on-list would be willing to attempt to pull data off the > drive. > > > In my experience, reading the data from this type of drive is > dramatically simplified if > you have the original controller it was attached to.  If you can get > your hands on it, this > job will be many many times easier, and doable without special equipment. > > -ken I did not know that. I do have the original controller, but it's a bit complicated. The controller is a Burke & Burke CoCo HDD controller.  I pulled the PCB from it.  Inside is 2 PCBs.  One looks like a standard 8 bit ISA card (WD1002A-WX1, no rev number), and the other is a small PCB that appears to adapt the ISA bus to the CoCo bus (4 MSI TTL and a CR2032 battery).  I assume just having the ISA card would be enough... Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============3413369566480544461==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue May 16 20:33:35 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 15:33:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2407490925841915645==" --===============2407490925841915645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I strongly recommend something like the Greaseweezle. This is a "flux recorder"  it does't know from format it just read and write flux transitions. There is another program that converts the flux transitions to formats.  Most formats are supported. Including low level formats like FM, MFM, GCR, etc.  As well has high level formats like CP/M, RX01/RX02, PC, Amiga, etc. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=greasezeezle On 5/16/2023 10:12 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > As you know I've recently restored a couple of CP/M luggable > computers. I also have many other machines with floppy disk drives, > 3", 3.5", 5.25" and 8" > > The machine I connect to the internet with is a more modern laptop > runnng Windows 8.1. Essentially its only interfaces are USB ports. > > I would like to be able to : > > Download disk images (I assume in .IMD or .TD0 format) and write them > to real floppy disks to use in my old machnes > > If possble, for the more common filesystems like MS-DOS or CP/M, be > able to work with these images on the modern PC at the file level. For > example, if I download a CP/M progam as a .COM file I'd like to be > able to put it into a disk image of a Philips P2000C disk, then > transfer that image to a real floppy and put it in a drive on the > Philips machine. > > I understand there are designed based on a modern microcontroller that > connecct to a USB port and a disk drive. Software on the PC translates > between the disk image and the accurately-timed pulses corresponding > to flux transitions on the disk. This unit links to a real disk drive, > you run the software and it reads/writes a real disk in said disk > drive. > > Now... I can handle a 'scope. I can handle a logic analyser. I can > handle a soldering iron. I can handle an engineer's lathe. I can > rebuld and align floppy disk drives. I can program most 8-bit micros > along with PERQ microcode, PDP11 mahine code, etc BUT I don't have a > clue when it comes to modern PCs, modern microcontrollers or USB > ports. > > So what I am asking is for people to describe what to do as in : > Buy this microcontroller board > Buy this blank PCB and solder the components given in the BOM to it. > Download this software and install it by doing this. > Connect a standard floppy drive to this connector > Run the software, specify the disk image file and sit back. > > -tony --===============2407490925841915645==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue May 16 20:54:22 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 15:54:13 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8366877991032126473==" --===============8366877991032126473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just having the ISA card will probably not be enough unless you can find an operating system that has drivers for that particular controller hardware and disk format. The color computer only had a few floppy formats (Coco, OS/9, Flex/StarDOS). As for hard disk formats, I have no idea.  I ran Flex and OS/9 on 6809 based computers with hard drives but what OS that controller was designed for I have no idea. Most of the CoCo floppy formats would probably not apply to even small hard drives due to limitations of their file structures.  For example Flex only supported 256 tracks and 256 sectors/track with each sector being 128 bytes (single density) or 256 bytes (double density).  That's a maximum size of 65536 sectors and 16,777,216 bytes.  OS/9 could handle larger drives but I don't remember the format they used. The ST-251 has 820 Cylinders, 6 heads and 17 Sectors/Track.  That's 83,640 sectors  or 42,823,680 bytes (512 byte sectors). Most likely there was some kind of driver for the CoCo that converted the ST-251 into smaller logical drives for the CoCo Operating system. In order to get the files off of the drive you will need to understand the actual high level format of boot sectors, root directory and sub directories as well as how the format ties sectors together into files. I'm sorry but I am not familiar with any CoCo OS hard disk formats. The STS-251 is a 50MB unformatted drive with On 5/16/2023 3:16 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 5/16/2023 3:00 PM, Kenneth Gober wrote: >> On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 11:21 PM Jim Brain via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>     At the most recent CoCoFEST!, I brought home the old Glenside Club >>     Computer Hard Drive.  The mechanism is an ST-251, and I was >>     wondering if >>     someone on-list would be willing to attempt to pull data off the >>     drive. >> >> >> In my experience, reading the data from this type of drive is >> dramatically simplified if >> you have the original controller it was attached to.  If you can get >> your hands on it, this >> job will be many many times easier, and doable without special >> equipment. >> >> -ken > > I did not know that. > > I do have the original controller, but it's a bit complicated. > > The controller is a Burke & Burke CoCo HDD controller.  I pulled the > PCB from it.  Inside is 2 PCBs.  One looks like a standard 8 bit ISA > card (WD1002A-WX1, no rev number), and the other is a small PCB that > appears to adapt the ISA bus to the CoCo bus (4 MSI TTL and a CR2032 > battery).  I assume just having the ISA card would be enough... > > Jim > --===============8366877991032126473==-- From drb@msu.edu Tue May 16 21:05:19 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 17:05:13 -0400 Message-ID: <20230516210513.A30D34B2D55@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <0132bf48-f83b-f3c2-65e1-65fd3dd389dd@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3826567885390397373==" --===============3826567885390397373== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > At the most recent CoCoFEST!, I brought home the old Glenside Club > Computer Hard Drive.  The mechanism is an ST-251, and I was wondering > if someone on-list would be willing to attempt to pull data off the > drive. I have no ability to configure to read this drive type, and > the data is not precious or anything, I just though we should try to > pull it off for historical sake. The best way to approach this, given the interchange issues with MFM disk controllers, is probably to use one of Dave Gesswein's MFM Emulator devices. It'll give you a flux image that can then be decode. There may not be a decoder for the CoCo format yet, but it's probably not too far different from other common things, so hopefully it could be constructed fairly easily. The MFMEmu community seems to be willing to help with this. De --===============3826567885390397373==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Tue May 16 21:43:42 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 22:43:35 +0100 Message-ID: <028201d9883f$77f25e30$67d71a90$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0132bf48-f83b-f3c2-65e1-65fd3dd389dd@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7924308576110139544==" --===============7924308576110139544== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, I would ask on here:- https://groups.google.com/d/forum/mfm-discuss to see if any one has one of these https://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm.shtml which will image an MFM disk so you are not re-reading and probably damaging = your original, an can then analyse the content at your leisure Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Brain via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 4:16 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Jim Brain > Subject: [cctalk] ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GC= CC) >=20 > At the most recent CoCoFEST!, I brought home the old Glenside Club Computer > Hard Drive. The mechanism is an ST-251, and I was wondering if someone on- > list would be willing to attempt to pull data off the drive. > I have no ability to configure to read this drive type, and the data is not= precious > or anything, I just though we should try to pull it off for historical sake= . I was not > in the club when teh drive was in use, so I do not know what could be on it= . I > assume BBS data, but it could be anything. >=20 > Happy to post to someone who wants to give it a go. If the drive needs to = be > destroyed to get the data, or if attempting to read the data destroys the d= rive, I > will not hold anyone responsible. I don't even need the drive back, just da= ta if it > is recoverable. >=20 > Jim >=20 > -- >=20 > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com --===============7924308576110139544==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Tue May 16 22:06:36 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 17:06:13 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230516210513.A30D34B2D55@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0125576232621947776==" --===============0125576232621947776== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 4:05 PM Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > At the most recent CoCoFEST!, I brought home the old Glenside Club > > Computer Hard Drive. The mechanism is an ST-251... < > The best way to approach this, given the interchange issues with MFM > disk controllers, is probably to use one of Dave Gesswein's MFM Emulator > devices. It'll give you a flux image that can then be decode. I have an MDM Emulator and it's nice, on those occasions you are trying to read a supported drive (it supports a _lot_ of encodings, but not every single platform). Two layers - fortunately in this case, the low-level format is known (WD1002A-WX1) and that's good. I'd totally expect an MFM Emulator to be able to pull bytes off the drive. I am not a CoCo person so I have no idea what tools can be used to pull files from a raw pile of disk blocks there. -ethan --===============0125576232621947776==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue May 16 22:30:44 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 22:30:36 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5651282882278169770==" --===============5651282882278169770== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony in response to your original idea of wanting to download images for use = on you existing machines ( did i get that right?), i think you have everythin= g you need already. Download the images to your win 8 box then use file tran= sfer software (kermit or xmodem) to serially transfer to the specific box you= want to use the software on and the use the floppy on that box to write the = floppies. It seems like there is a version of kermit made for every box imagi= nable. The only possible gotcha is does the box have a serial port.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On May 16, 2023, at 15:06, Ethan Dicks via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, May 16, 2023 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Dennis Boone via cctalk > wrote: >>> At the most recent CoCoFEST!, I brought home the old Glenside Club >>> Computer Hard Drive. The mechanism is an ST-251... > < >> The best way to approach this, given the interchange issues with MFM >> disk controllers, is probably to use one of Dave Gesswein's MFM Emulator >> devices. It'll give you a flux image that can then be decode. >=20 > I have an MDM Emulator and it's nice, on those occasions you are > trying to read a supported drive (it supports a _lot_ of encodings, > but not every single platform). >=20 > Two layers - fortunately in this case, the low-level format is known > (WD1002A-WX1) and that's good. I'd totally expect an MFM Emulator to > be able to pull bytes off the drive. I am not a CoCo person so I have > no idea what tools can be used to pull files from a raw pile of disk > blocks there. >=20 > -ethan --===============5651282882278169770==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 16 22:42:31 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 15:42:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181DEF85CDA889C6D0FF218E4799=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1214766201087520105==" --===============1214766201087520105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 16 May 2023, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Tony in response to your original idea of wanting to download images for > use on you existing machines ( did i get that right?), i think you have > everything you need already. Download the images to your win 8 box then > use file transfer software (kermit or xmodem) to serially transfer to > the specific box you want to use the software on and the use the floppy > on that box to write the floppies. It seems like there is a version of > kermit made for every box imaginable. The only possible gotcha is does > the box have a serial port. He would have to add a serial port (USB to serial dongle). Although, . . . many years ago, in the early days of USB, there was a cable and software provision for transferring files USB yo USB. 'course, it's doubtful that any of his other machines have USB. Similarly, he could buy a cheap external USB 3.5" drive. Write content to that drive on the modern machine, and read those floppies on the older machines. The readily avaailable one have firmware that only supports 720K, 1.4M, and [sometimes] NEC-style "mode 3". There do not seem to be any currently available USB external drives that support cnaything other than a 3.5" drive integrated with the controller. There ONCE was one with a non-integrated controller that could be modified for 3", 3.25', 5.25" or 8" I get the implication that he is considering USB flux-transition devices that could be coerced into acting as a general purpose floppy controller. --===============1214766201087520105==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue May 16 22:55:10 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 22:55:02 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0879904457410920734==" --===============0879904457410920734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, glad you chimed in.=20 If you have the original post, Tony wants to download different things images= for those machines, probably from the internet and use the software on those= machines via floppy. As another item, he acquired a coco computer hard disk= that he like to get the data from. A greezweasel was suggested.=20 So he has 2 somewhat related tasks. Sent from my iPhone > On May 16, 2023, at 15:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, 16 May 2023, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Tony in response to your original idea of wanting to download images for u= se on you existing machines ( did i get that right?), i think you have everyt= hing you need already. Download the images to your win 8 box then use file tr= ansfer software (kermit or xmodem) to serially transfer to the specific box y= ou want to use the software on and the use the floppy on that box to write th= e floppies. It seems like there is a version of kermit made for every box ima= ginable. The only possible gotcha is does the box have a serial port. >=20 > He would have to add a serial port (USB to serial dongle). >=20 > Although, . . . > many years ago, in the early days of USB, there was a cable and software pr= ovision for transferring files USB yo USB. 'course, it's doubtful that any o= f his other machines have USB. >=20 >=20 > Similarly, he could buy a cheap external USB 3.5" drive. Write content to = that drive on the modern machine, and read those floppies on the older machin= es. The readily avaailable one have firmware that only supports 720K, 1.4M, = and [sometimes] NEC-style "mode 3". >=20 > There do not seem to be any currently available USB external drives that su= pport cnaything other than a 3.5" drive integrated with the controller. There= ONCE was one with a non-integrated controller that could be modified for 3",= 3.25', 5.25" or 8" >=20 > I get the implication that he is considering USB flux-transition devices th= at could be coerced into acting as a general purpose floppy controller. >=20 >=20 --===============0879904457410920734==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Tue May 16 23:00:29 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 16:00:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8976417056262376318==" --===============8976417056262376318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 May 2023, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 11:21=E2=80=AFPM Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: > >> At the most recent CoCoFEST!, I brought home the old Glenside Club >> Computer Hard Drive. The mechanism is an ST-251, and I was wondering if >> someone on-list would be willing to attempt to pull data off the drive. >> > > In my experience, reading the data from this type of drive is dramatically > simplified if > you have the original controller it was attached to. If you can get your > hands on it, this > job will be many many times easier, and doable without special equipment. There's a gadget out there for imaging MFM drives - it uses a BeagleBone=20 as the core of it - I've got one, but I don't know how to use it well=20 enough for your task, but I'm sure someone else on this list has one. (this thing: https://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm.shtml) g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============8976417056262376318==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue May 16 23:04:09 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 16:04:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21815A2D6795994DDED30203E4799=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4051430480793742958==" --===============4051430480793742958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 May 2023, Wayne S wrote: > Fred, glad you chimed in. > If you have the original post, Tony wants to download different things imag= es for those machines, probably from the internet and use the software on tho= se machines via floppy. As another item, he acquired a coco computer hard di= sk that he like to get the data from. A greezweasel was suggested. > So he has 2 somewhat related tasks. Actually, the Coco harddisk was Jim Brain. So, we have unwittingly conflated two threads. I'm sure that Tony would like to add full function floppy capability to=20 his modern machine. That may be more difficult, but simply writing 3.5"=20 disk, with no other capabilities is trivial and cheap. For full function,=20 he needs to put together a more elaborate device. For Jim Brain's Coco disk, my inclination would be to image it on an ISA=20 machine using the WD controller. but, an argument was made that a flux=20 transition read might be a way to cut down on the number of reads. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4051430480793742958==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 16 23:36:39 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 16:36:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4611252524065006846==" --===============4611252524065006846== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/16/23 16:04, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > For Jim Brain's Coco disk, my inclination would be to image it on an ISA > machine using the WD controller.  but, an argument was made that a flux > transition read might be a way to cut down on the number of reads. Bear in mind that the datarate of a ST506 MFM hard drive is 5MHz, as opposed to 500KHz for an 8" MFM floppy, so the sample clock may have to run quite a bit faster--should not be a problem on any modern MCU. But also note that the data lines to the drive are *differential* not single-ended, so you'll also need RS422 receivers as well as proper termination. FWIW, Chuck --===============4611252524065006846==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 17 00:14:37 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 17:14:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1000212498869776878==" --===============1000212498869776878== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 16 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Most likely there was some kind of driver for the CoCo that converted > the ST-251 into smaller logical drives for the CoCo Operating system. One fellow, who used to be involved in Cocos, recalls one or more systems that handled it by MANY "virtual floppies" on the drive. I think that OS-9 may have had support for "big" drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1000212498869776878==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 17 00:30:57 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 17:30:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0862648252811145165==" --===============0862648252811145165== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, that would be "spot on", as the formatted capacity of an ST-251 was 40 Megabytes. When used with MS-DOS, prior to MS-DOS 3.31, it would be partitioned as two 20MB, or as a 32MB plus an 8MB. (V3.31 was the first version of MS-DOS to support a partition larger than 32MB) On Tue, 16 May 2023, Mike Katz wrote: > The biggest drive I remember seeing on OS/9 was 20MB or 40MB.  I > don't remember the File Allocation Table size or format. > > On 5/16/2023 7:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 16 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>> Most likely there was some kind of driver for the CoCo that >>> converted the ST-251 into smaller logical drives for the CoCo >>> Operating system. >> >> One fellow, who used to be involved in Cocos, recalls one or more >> systems that handled it by MANY "virtual floppies" on the drive. >> >> I think that OS-9 may have had support for "big" drives. >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0862648252811145165==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed May 17 01:02:08 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 19:24:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0977061423167580284==" --===============0977061423167580284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The biggest drive I remember seeing on OS/9 was 20MB or 40MB.  I don't remember the File Allocation Table size or format. On 5/16/2023 7:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 16 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> Most likely there was some kind of driver for the CoCo that converted >> the ST-251 into smaller logical drives for the CoCo Operating system. > > One fellow, who used to be involved in Cocos, recalls one or more > systems that handled it by MANY "virtual floppies" on the drive. > > I think that OS-9 may have had support for "big" drives. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0977061423167580284==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Wed May 17 01:36:21 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 19:36:05 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5682853521290554419==" --===============5682853521290554419== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, May 16, 2023, 8:30 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Well, that would be "spot on", as the formatted capacity of an ST-251 was > 40 Megabytes. > > When used with MS-DOS, prior to MS-DOS 3.31, it would be partitioned as > two 20MB, or as a 32MB plus an 8MB. > (V3.31 was the first version of MS-DOS to support a partition larger than > 32MB) > That's how I used it on my DEC Rainbow under MS-DOS 2.11 and later 3.10b. And recently under venix... Warner On Tue, 16 May 2023, Mike Katz wrote: > > > The biggest drive I remember seeing on OS/9 was 20MB or 40MB. I > > don't remember the File Allocation Table size or format. > > > > On 5/16/2023 7:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> On Tue, 16 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > >>> Most likely there was some kind of driver for the CoCo that > >>> converted the ST-251 into smaller logical drives for the CoCo > >>> Operating system. > >> > >> One fellow, who used to be involved in Cocos, recalls one or more > >> systems that handled it by MANY "virtual floppies" on the drive. > >> > >> I think that OS-9 may have had support for "big" drives. > >> > >> -- > >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5682853521290554419==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 17 01:57:35 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 18:57:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5303788179296746593==" --===============5303788179296746593== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> The biggest drive I remember seeing on OS/9 was 20MB or 40MB. I >>> don't remember the File Allocation Table size or format. >> Well, that would be "spot on", as the formatted capacity of an ST-251 was >> 40 Megabytes. >> When used with MS-DOS, prior to > MS-DOS 3.31, it would be partitioned as >> two 20MB, or as a 32MB plus an 8MB. >> (V3.31 was the first version of MS-DOS to support a partition larger than >> 32MB) On Tue, 16 May 2023, Warner Losh wrote: > That's how I used it on my DEC Rainbow under MS-DOS 2.11 and later 3.10b. > And recently under venix... OEM versions of MS-DOS, particularly 2.11 and 3.31 often had changes made by the OEM. Many minor ones, but also some major ones. I should have worded that, "V3.31 was the first version of MS-DOS to support a partition larger than 32MB, WITHOUT vendor/OEM modifications" Disk formats other than the primary ones were often added by OEMs, such as 80 track, and 3.5" prior to 3.20. There were numerous implementations of 3.5" drives starting with V2.11, many of which were not directly compatible with the mainstream ones that started with V3.20. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5303788179296746593==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Wed May 17 03:16:39 2023 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Teledisk 2.16 to read old RX50 images Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 03:16:36 +0000 Message-ID: <0ADF2AC8-568D-473A-8B23-502A6E3D28EC@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: <6853a31f-c16c-e8d8-9bc8-0566a994078c@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2167516321826918478==" --===============2167516321826918478== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ll chip in my 5 cents and say that i=E2=80=99ve had good experience= s with PUTR, a DOS based utility can can read, write, and mount a lot of DEC = formats. I quite successfully used it to make myself a few bootable RX50 flop= pies for my 11/23. Of course, YMMV, and you=E2=80=99ll need a DOS/9x machine to use it, but from= my experiences, it=E2=80=99s really quite powerful, and though i haven=E2=80= =99t used it for disk imaging, i=E2=80=99m pretty sure it supports that too. Josh. > On May 14, 2023, at 5:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 5/14/23 06:58, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> On Sun, May 14, 2023, 7:47 AM Chris Zach via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi! >>>=20 >>> Well, after a good bit of work I have finally gotten my Compaq XE4000 up >>> and running with Windows 98, the BIOS all set, a new battery, and of >>> course a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy that seems to be working. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I'd avoid teledisk. I'd look at Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk. It produces >> those img files directly. It's linked from >> http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img/index.htm >=20 > ImageDisk may not be the answer either. >=20 > A problem that crops up if you're trying to run TeleDisk under a Windows > command prompt. That messes with the timing. TD is intended for use > under real-mode DOS. That is, if you're in windows, shut down to a DOS > command prompt. Do NOT assume that the Windows command prompt out of > the GUI will do the job. Or just boot MS-DOS. >=20 > There are certainly Linux programs that can also read RX50 floppies. >=20 > If you want a brute-force read every sector on an RX50 program, I can > pass that on to see if it works better for you. It knows the format of > an RX50 disk, so doesn't have to guess. I use it myself (the author of > TeleDisk), though increasingly, I'm relying on MCU-based solutions to > handle floppies. >=20 > I haven't touched TD since 1999, when we sold the rights to the program. > It blows my mind that it's in use 24 years after its last incarnation. >=20 > --Chuck >=20 >=20 --===============2167516321826918478==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed May 17 03:35:23 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 20:35:09 -0700 Message-ID: <4310fdb9-fb9b-8a19-3846-1e0e21e266e9@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9090770848253451244==" --===============9090770848253451244== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/16/23 18:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> The biggest drive I remember seeing on OS/9 was 20MB or 40MB.  I >>>> don't remember the File Allocation Table size or format. >>> Well, that would be "spot on", as the formatted capacity of an ST-251 >>> was >>> 40 Megabytes. > >>> When used with MS-DOS, prior to >> MS-DOS 3.31, it would be partitioned as >>> two 20MB, or as a 32MB plus an 8MB. >>> (V3.31 was the first version of MS-DOS to support a partition larger >>> than >>> 32MB) On some controllers, DTC BXD06 BIOS for example, another DOS 2.x option was available. One could split a 32MB drive into two 16MB drives, each with a different BIOS (0x80 and 0x81) address. In the days of 16 bit sector addresses, disks got larger than PCDOS's ability to service them. One way around this was to incorporate a software shim in the BIOS to block 512 byte physical sectors into larger multiples (e.g. 1024, 4096, 8192...bytes). DOS could deal with this at the expense of more memory consumed for buffers, but it worked, sort of. Another option used was to address the disk via a network redirector, which accessed files by name, not absolute sector. All mostly forgotten today. --Chuck --===============9090770848253451244==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed May 17 03:56:19 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 04:56:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2374948485738997859==" --===============2374948485738997859== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 11:42 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, 16 May 2023, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > Tony in response to your original idea of wanting to download images for > > use on you existing machines ( did i get that right?), i think you have Yes. I've got the machines running, I see software for them on websites (including bitsavers), I want to use it. > > everything you need already. Download the images to your win 8 box then > > use file transfer software (kermit or xmodem) to serially transfer to > > the specific box you want to use the software on and the use the floppy > > on that box to write the floppies. It seems like there is a version of > > kermit made for every box imaginable. The only possible gotcha is does > > the box have a serial port. > > He would have to add a serial port (USB to serial dongle). That was the first thing I bought for this machine. And Kermit was one of the first things I installed. Last time I used it was yesterday to transfer an EPROM dump file from my HP95LX... But I really would like to get a more direct solution. As for the target machine having a serial port, one of the machines I want to get stuff onto is an Osborne 1A. The serial port on that is horrible. The baud rate generator divides down the master clock to get 19200Hz. That's fed to the serial chip which, amazingly for a Z80 machine, is a 6850. You can program that to divide by 16 (for 1200 baud) or divide by 64 (for 300 baud). That's it. OK, there's a jumper on the mainboard to double those rates, and a cut-n-wire modification in the technical manual for 9600 and 2400 baud, but.... > > Although, . . . > many years ago, in the early days of USB, there was a cable and software > provision for transferring files USB yo USB. 'course, it's doubtful that > any of his other machines have USB. If my other machines had USB I'd just put the files on a memory stick. > > > Similarly, he could buy a cheap external USB 3.5" drive. Write content to > that drive on the modern machine, and read those floppies on the older > machines. The readily avaailable one have firmware that only supports > 720K, 1.4M, and [sometimes] NEC-style "mode 3". I have one but AFAIK it only supports 1.4M. A format that few of my other machines support. > I get the implication that he is considering USB flux-transition devices > that could be coerced into acting as a general purpose floppy controller. EXACTLY! I was told that was the best solution for this sort of thing. Are there any downsides to doing it that way? If I do go that route, what are the options? I have no knowledge of them and thus no preference for one over another As I said at the start I am clueless about this. I really need somebody to talk me through it, what to get, what to build, what to download etc. -tony --===============2374948485738997859==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 17 04:29:09 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 21:29:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2018454697998451817==" --===============2018454697998451817== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Similarly, he could buy a cheap external USB 3.5" drive. Write content to >> that drive on the modern machine, and read those floppies on the older >> machines. The readily avaailable one have firmware that only supports >> 720K, 1.4M, and [sometimes] NEC-style "mode 3". On Wed, 17 May 2023, Tony Duell wrote: > I have one but AFAIK it only supports 1.4M. A format that few of my > other machines support. Have they stopped making ones that include 720K? That's something that almost all of your MFM machines could be coerced into handling. >> I get the implication that he is considering USB flux-transition devices >> that could be coerced into acting as a general purpose floppy controller. I am not adequately familiar with them. Last time that I tried to research it, I found that there had once been an external drive in which the USB and controller werenot integrated with the drive electronics, so that it could easily get a different drive connected. It is, of course, not available anywhere. I also saw a datasheet for a chip that was a USB floppy controller! It also does not seem to be available. But, that seems to now be the direction that flux transition devices are heading! > EXACTLY! I was told that was the best solution for this sort of thing. > Are there any downsides to doing it that way? > > If I do go that route, what are the options? I have no knowledge of > them and thus no preference for one over another > > As I said at the start I am clueless about this. I really need > somebody to talk me through it, what to get, what to build, what to > download etc. In the earlier days of the flux transition devices, I found it frustrating that many people talking about them would list "formats that it can handle", but fail to differentiate, and maybe not even know, the difference between creating an image that could be used for re-creating a copy, VS producing a collection of sectors, VS understanding the file systems to be able to extract files. As you know, my work in the 1980s and 1990s was in parsing alien file systems, and transferring files with simple INT13h sector reading. From what I've heard, there has been substantial progress on the flux transition devices, with decoding the track to sectors, and even support of some file systems! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2018454697998451817==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed May 17 04:50:50 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 23:50:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7115253193362801699==" --===============7115253193362801699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/16/2023 3:54 PM, Mike Katz wrote: > I'm sorry but I am not familiar with any CoCo OS hard disk formats. All valuable information, but I am not concerned about the FS format.  ONce the data can be retrieved from the platters, either I or others can write some code or create a way to view the files.  Mainly, I just need help getting the digital data off the HDD. Jim --===============7115253193362801699==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed May 17 04:52:08 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 23:52:01 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230516210513.A30D34B2D55@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6442446388226291117==" --===============6442446388226291117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/16/2023 4:05 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > At the most recent CoCoFEST!, I brought home the old Glenside Club > > Computer Hard Drive.  The mechanism is an ST-251, and I was wondering > > if someone on-list would be willing to attempt to pull data off the > > drive. I have no ability to configure to read this drive type, and > > the data is not precious or anything, I just though we should try to > > pull it off for historical sake. > > The best way to approach this, given the interchange issues with MFM > disk controllers, is probably to use one of Dave Gesswein's MFM Emulator > devices. It'll give you a flux image that can then be decode. > > There may not be a decoder for the CoCo format yet, but it's probably > not too far different from other common things, so hopefully it could be > constructed fairly easily. The MFMEmu community seems to be willing to > help with this. > > De David has already connected with me, and I am grateful to send the unit to him to see if he can retrieve anything.  And yes, once the data is off the drive, creating a decoder should not be overly difficult. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============6442446388226291117==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed May 17 04:53:05 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 23:52:56 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <028201d9883f$77f25e30$67d71a90$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8266505835913682182==" --===============8266505835913682182== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/16/2023 4:43 PM, dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com wrote: > Jim, > I would ask on here:- > > https://groups.google.com/d/forum/mfm-discuss > > to see if any one has one of these > > https://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm.shtml > > which will image an MFM disk so you are not re-reading and probably damagin= g your original, an can then analyse the content at your leisure That was my thought as well. Image the raw data, and then work on=20 decoding.=C2=A0 Dave Gesswein already reached out. Jim --===============8266505835913682182==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed May 17 04:54:58 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 21:54:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4914899159126542050==" --===============4914899159126542050== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/16/23 21:29, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> From what I've heard, there has been substantial progress on the flux > transition devices, with decoding the track to sectors, and even support > of some file systems! > For years I have been telling the community that flux transition is easy-peasy on modern MCUs. You have fast timers, "capture mode" and even DMA for the capture process. After that, it's mostly a matter of knowing the modulation method and ID address and data marker encoding. I routinely use (my own code) the method for getting at the guts of RX01/RX02 disks as well the oddball ones, such as Wang 2200 hard sector. My Pertec-interface tape controller is much the same--wiggle the right lines and stash the data on the internal SD card. It's not hard! --Chuck --===============4914899159126542050==-- From mokuba@gmail.com Wed May 17 08:58:36 2023 From: mokuba@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NRAO Data tapes Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 08:58:32 +0000 Message-ID: <168431391284.1516385.1034710405225293533@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <837330eb-2e03-97ac-4c8b-9473cf9dd67d@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8666500167835197385==" --===============8666500167835197385== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For some handy clarification - some of the tapes I saw seemed to be operating= system tapes for the MAX 32 computer. Labeled things like "MAX 32 O/S & SUPPORT PART 2 OF 2" and "MAX 32 GLS -C COM= PILER" 1600 BPI, 9 track.=20 Also has MODCOMP copyrights, leading to this line of machines: https://en.wik= ipedia.org/wiki/Modcomp So likely the Modcomp Classic. Copyright dates on the labeling indicated 1981= . So it would have been the latest and greatest OS for this system at the tim= e.=20 So this would have been the OS, according to that wiki article, controlling s= pace shuttle launch complex. Also tangentially related (Modcomp IV, their fir= st 32 bit computer) to the OS running PAVE PAWS initially. --===============8666500167835197385==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Wed May 17 11:08:05 2023 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 11:45:41 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4698304367571120629==" --===============4698304367571120629== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 17/05/2023 04:56, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > EXACTLY! I was told that was the best solution for this sort of thing. > Are there any downsides to doing it that way? > > If I do go that route, what are the options? I have no knowledge of > them and thus no preference for one over another > > As I said at the start I am clueless about this. I really need > somebody to talk me through it, what to get, what to build, what to > download etc. As I suspect that you have IBM PC compatible systems with 5.25" (high and normal density) and 3.5" (ditto) then I would think the easiest solution for you is to run DOS on such a machine and use Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk: http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img/index.htm. This assumes you have some way to get files (specifically IMD files) onto and off that system ... perhaps through a network connection? My preferred solution is to boot to DOS using a CF adapter and then - when finished imaging - to connect that CF card to a USB card reader that supports CF and is connected to a more modern machine for archiving, storage of the image or whatever. This all depends on the FDC on whatever motherboard you have being capable of reading/writing all the modes that you myriad collection requires (or at least the subset you want to use in this manner). TESTFDC (part of the ImageDisk package) will tell you exactly which modes work and don't work with your hardware. I do also have a FluxEngine that I want to get around to using - see http://cowlark.com/fluxengine/index.html for a list of formats it supports natively. The advantage would be that you are not limited by the PC FDC as the FluxEngine will read flux transitions directly from the connected floppy disk. FluxEngine connects via USB to whatever modern system you choose to use. However, getting the  Cypress PSoC5LP dev board might be a challenge right now given the continuing global supply shortage. FluxEngine supports IMD. If you want to put a random file on a floppy for something obscure then you need to find software (or a chain of software) that will build an IMD file. DOS will be easy, CP/M is probably simple enough, but after that I expect that you'll potentially need to do some digging for each new format. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============4698304367571120629==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed May 17 14:49:26 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 15:48:20 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7934822521633575728==" --===============7934822521633575728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 5:29=E2=80=AFAM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > >> Similarly, he could buy a cheap external USB 3.5" drive. Write content = to > >> that drive on the modern machine, and read those floppies on the older > >> machines. The readily avaailable one have firmware that only supports > >> 720K, 1.4M, and [sometimes] NEC-style "mode 3". > > On Wed, 17 May 2023, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have one but AFAIK it only supports 1.4M. A format that few of my > > other machines support. > > Have they stopped making ones that include 720K? I've never found one that claims to support 720K. OK, OK... When I have a little (?) spare time I'll pull my USB floppy drive to bits and try to work out just what the hardware consists of. > That's something that almost all of your MFM machines could be coerced > into handling. > > >> I get the implication that he is considering USB flux-transition devices > >> that could be coerced into acting as a general purpose floppy controller. > > I am not adequately familiar with them. Nor am I,which is why I am asking about them. I've heard they are a possible solution to my problems. I would like to know more, which ones exist, which are recomended (the Greaseweazel, the only one that has been seriously suggested to me, is at least open source and has schematics available), what they will do, etc And to jump to a later point you make, I want to know just what software tools exist to deal with the flux-transition file (if that's the term). For example for an FM or MFM disk image, are there tools to convert between a .IMD file and said flux transition file, between a .TD0 file and said flux transition file, etc. And what software tools exist to work on disk images. If I have a .IMD file of a CP/M disk, say, can I add a file to it, for example? -tony --===============7934822521633575728==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed May 17 14:59:56 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 15:59:07 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0943342161483598150==" --===============0943342161483598150== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 5:54 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/16/23 21:29, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > >> From what I've heard, there has been substantial progress on the flux > > transition devices, with decoding the track to sectors, and even support > > of some file systems! > > > > For years I have been telling the community that flux transition is > easy-peasy on modern MCUs. You have fast timers, "capture mode" and > even DMA for the capture process. [..] > It's not hard! It's not hard if you know about modern microcontrollers, know how to program them, know how to handle the USB interface back to the modern machine, know how to write programs on said modern machine to talk to the microcontroller over the USB interface and so on. I know NONE of that. It's not hard to rebuild a floppy drive and align it from scratch. It's not hard to understand the microcode in an HP9830 and its HP11305 disk control. It's not hard to replace heads in an RK05. It's not hard to wire up a processor from a pile of TTL chps. It's not hard to make an interface between a Trend HSR500P tape reader and a TRS-80 CoCo. It's not hard to rebullt a rotary telephone dial. it's not hard to repair a spring-driven chiming/striking clock. It's not hard to... I've done them all over the years. This does not mean I can design and build a flux-transition type of floppy disk reader/writer. Actually I probaably could if I had to but I understand such devices already exist so I'd rather use a known design if there is a recomended one, one that people have experience of. -tony --===============0943342161483598150==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed May 17 16:53:42 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 17:53:25 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8392408271204994118==" --===============8392408271204994118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 17 May 2023 at 05:29, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Have they stopped making ones that include 720K? I have 2 USB floppy drives and have successfully read 720 kB disks with them, and also MacOS 1.4 MB disks. I think they should also write 720 kB disks. What they won't handle are DD formats that don't use the standardPC disk controller: Amiga disk, DD Mac disks, etc. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8392408271204994118==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed May 17 17:02:18 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 12:02:05 -0500 Message-ID: <685bb476-5826-0205-a3bc-d6d52a381ef5@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4509448644630785319==" --===============4509448644630785319== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That is because Amiga uses GCR recording rather then FM or MFM. On 5/17/2023 11:53 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2023 at 05:29, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> Have they stopped making ones that include 720K? > I have 2 USB floppy drives and have successfully read 720 kB disks > with them, and also MacOS 1.4 MB disks. > > I think they should also write 720 kB disks. > > What they won't handle are DD formats that don't use the standardPC > disk controller: Amiga disk, DD Mac disks, etc. > --===============4509448644630785319==-- From r_a_feldman@hotmail.com Wed May 17 18:05:34 2023 From: Robert Feldman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 18:05:28 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2069669264876113122==" --===============2069669264876113122== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Message: 21 >Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 04:56:05 +0100 >From: Tony Duell >Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer > Club (GCCC) >As for the target machine having a serial port, one of the machines I >want to get stuff onto is an Osborne 1A. The serial port on that is >horrible. >-tony For CP/M computers such as the Osborne, you can read and write their diskette= s on an MS-DOS computer with a program like Media Master. KayPro disks are ha= rder, as there are problems formatting them on an MS-DOS computer. Bob --===============2069669264876113122==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 17 19:22:41 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 12:22:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <685bb476-5826-0205-a3bc-d6d52a381ef5@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8445182486778027767==" --===============8445182486778027767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> What they won't handle are DD formats that don't use the standardPC >> disk controller: Amiga disk, DD Mac disks, etc. The few external USB drives that I have tried can't even handle most of the stuff that a standard PCdisk controller can. Their firmware is locked in to a few specific formats, with no way to access a different file system, change sector size, etc. If you know of an external USB drive that does have the cpabilities of a standard PC disk controller, please tell us what you can of make, model, supplier, availability, etc. On Wed, 17 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > That is because Amiga uses GCR recording rather then FM or MFM. Apple2, Commodore 64, Mac 400K/800K, and many others are GCR. For the Mac 1.4M format, Apple switched to MFM, and it is similar to PC 1.4M, but with a different directory/file system. Amiga, however is NOT GCR! It is MFM, but without the IBM/WD track and sector layout. The NEC 765 is designed for MFM with the IBM/WD track and sector layout, so it is not designed for such a format. There are tricks to do it, anyway, by changing drive select in mid-read, etc. Far better to do it with a flux transition device. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8445182486778027767==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 17 19:38:12 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 12:38:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCH0PR18MB4195EF0834ED8F7609FBD982B57E9=40CH0PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?4195=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0548095123688683322==" --===============0548095123688683322== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> As for the target machine having a serial port, one of the machines I >> want to get stuff onto is an Osborne 1A. The serial port on that is >> horrible. On Wed, 17 May 2023, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: > For CP/M computers such as the Osborne, you can read and write their > diskettes on an MS-DOS computer with a program like Media Master. KayPro > disks are harder, as there are problems formatting them on an MS-DOS > computer. The earliest Osbornes were single density with ten 256 byte sectors per track. I was able to write some code on TRS80 model 1 to read those. Many PC FDCs, including the IBM 5150/5160, can not do FM/single-density. Then Osborne came out with a "double density upgrade". The MFM/Double-density Osborne disks are easy to do with PC, if you are familiar with INT13h and INT1Eh. But, my original stock 5150 PC could never read the original/early Osborne disks. Single sided Kaypro disks were not hard to do. Nothing special, other than smaller than ideal inter-sector gaps to squeeze ten 512 byte sectors per track. But, the double sided Kaypro disks had an incorrect value in the head number field of the sector headers of the second side! The WD controller used in the Kaypro ignored that field, but the NEC FDC insisted on a match. I tried some double-sided Kaypros, and found that they would work fine with disks that had the correct value in the head number field. So, I could format the disks in Kaypro double sided format on the PC, then copy files to those pseudo Kaypro disks on the Kaypro, and bring themback to the PC to read. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0548095123688683322==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed May 17 19:49:16 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 12:49:01 -0700 Message-ID: <43ada5d0-6871-ed71-399c-4ab192fa56b5@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3238088777103835417==" --===============3238088777103835417== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/17/23 12:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > If you know of an external USB drive that does have the cpabilities of a > standard PC disk controller, please tell us what you can of make, model, > supplier, availability, etc. Interestingly, the Micro Solutions Backpack floppy drives do have all the capabilities of a standard PC controller; they're basically and FDC, an 8051 MCU and some added SRAM. You can fire off FDC commands over a parallel interface (I know, "what's that?") For commercial applications, the USB Mass Storage Device standard is patterned after SCSI; as a matter of fact, it uses SCSI CDBs embedded in a USB packet to work. As users of SCSI floppy drives know, that's just a subset of the stuff that can be done with a legacy FDC setup. That isn't to say that someone hasn't rolled a one-off project for this--I know of at least one. It requires its own Windows drivers. As much as Tony doesn't like it, I need to point out that a modern MCU quite often has as much (or more) RAM, and runs faster than many older PCs. Consider, for example, the lowly STM32H7A3 series. 1.4MB of RAM, 2MB of program flash, 5 DMA controllers, ethernet, TFT LCD, up to 164 5V tolerant GPIOs, USB OTG...I won't go on. Why tinker around with a PC when your MCU is more powerful? I store my retrieved data on a 32GB SD card. Yeah, I know, this is a "classic" list and I shouldn't discuss anything much past an 80386. --Chuck --===============3238088777103835417==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed May 17 20:00:53 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 15:00:21 -0500 Message-ID: <935e66a2-5c23-cfd5-96fd-c32287fedf62@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8216194818767351420==" --===============8216194818767351420== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you have access to a Gimix SS-50 6809 or 6800 system, Gimix used the WD1791 in their double density disk controller.  That controller can do single and double density 5 1/2" and 8" disks (250KHz, 500KHz & 1MHz data rates). On 5/17/2023 2:38 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> As for the target machine having a serial port, one of the machines I >>> want to get stuff onto is an Osborne 1A. The serial port on that is >>> horrible. > > On Wed, 17 May 2023, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: >> For CP/M computers such as the Osborne, you can read and write their >> diskettes on an MS-DOS computer with a program like Media Master. >> KayPro disks are harder, as there are problems formatting them on an >> MS-DOS computer. > > The earliest Osbornes were single density with ten 256 byte sectors > per track.  I was able to write some code on TRS80 model 1 to read those. > Many PC FDCs, including the IBM 5150/5160, can not do FM/single-density. > > Then Osborne came out with a "double density upgrade".  The > MFM/Double-density Osborne disks are easy to do with PC, if you are > familiar with INT13h and INT1Eh. > > But, my original stock 5150 PC could never read the original/early > Osborne disks. > > > Single sided Kaypro disks were not hard to do.  Nothing special, other > than smaller than ideal inter-sector gaps to squeeze ten 512 byte > sectors per track. > > But, the double sided Kaypro disks had an incorrect value in the head > number field of the sector headers of the second side!  The WD > controller used in the Kaypro ignored that field, but the NEC FDC > insisted on a match.  I tried some double-sided Kaypros, and found > that they would work fine with disks that had the correct value in the > head number field.  So, I could format the disks in Kaypro double > sided format on the PC, then copy files to those pseudo Kaypro disks > on the Kaypro, and bring themback to the PC to read. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8216194818767351420==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 17 20:13:31 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 13:13:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <935e66a2-5c23-cfd5-96fd-c32287fedf62@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7752010463494966442==" --===============7752010463494966442== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 17 May 2023, Mike Katz wrote: > If you have access to a Gimix SS-50 6809 or 6800 system, Gimix used the > WD1791 in their double density disk controller.  That controller can do > single and double density 5 1/2" and 8" disks (250KHz, 500KHz & 1MHz data > rates). Some NEC 765 controllers, including the original 5150/5160 are hard-wried to not be able to do single density, and they have a limited range of data transfer rates. Other than that, 5170 style controllers can do double density 5.25" (sorry, there is no 5 1/2" disk), and 8". The ones that support single density (check Dave Dunfield's site) can do single and double density 5.25" and 8". The 1MHz data transfer rate is needed for the 2.8M 3.5". So, those capabilities are same as many NEC 765 PCs. But, the WD1791 includes a real TRACK READ! Try that for Amiga! The NEC 765 design does not have a real TRACK READ; instead, it offers a multiple sector read. --===============7752010463494966442==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed May 17 20:28:13 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 15:06:13 -0500 Message-ID: <20f6412f-cb8c-4e3b-d7bf-729f69ce5c9a@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <43ada5d0-6871-ed71-399c-4ab192fa56b5@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3574686170137679939==" --===============3574686170137679939== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have to agree with the folk on here who recommend some kind of flux reader/writer like the greaseweazle. It handles any format, handles most any data rate and has more ram/rom and cpu horsepower than an old PC.  And is the size of a deck of cards.  I have mine stored inside a dual 8" drive cabinet. Though I am only using single sided drives (for reading RX01/RX02 drives).  I know it can handle double sided drives. And all of the source is open source so you can modify it for any format you want. On 5/17/2023 2:49 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/17/23 12:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> If you know of an external USB drive that does have the cpabilities of a >> standard PC disk controller, please tell us what you can of make, model, >> supplier, availability, etc. > Interestingly, the Micro Solutions Backpack floppy drives do have all > the capabilities of a standard PC controller; they're basically and FDC, > an 8051 MCU and some added SRAM. You can fire off FDC commands over a > parallel interface (I know, "what's that?") > > For commercial applications, the USB Mass Storage Device standard is > patterned after SCSI; as a matter of fact, it uses SCSI CDBs embedded in > a USB packet to work. As users of SCSI floppy drives know, that's just > a subset of the stuff that can be done with a legacy FDC setup. > > That isn't to say that someone hasn't rolled a one-off project for > this--I know of at least one. It requires its own Windows drivers. > > As much as Tony doesn't like it, I need to point out that a modern MCU > quite often has as much (or more) RAM, and runs faster than many older > PCs. Consider, for example, the lowly STM32H7A3 series. 1.4MB of RAM, > 2MB of program flash, 5 DMA controllers, ethernet, TFT LCD, up to 164 5V > tolerant GPIOs, USB OTG...I won't go on. > > Why tinker around with a PC when your MCU is more powerful? I store my > retrieved data on a 32GB SD card. > > Yeah, I know, this is a "classic" list and I shouldn't discuss anything > much past an 80386. > > --Chuck > > --===============3574686170137679939==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed May 17 20:34:48 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 15:34:38 -0500 Message-ID: <20e9c078-e8ac-cdb4-af07-44f265558fb4@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5087579592447012735==" --===============5087579592447012735== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please forgive my typo, you are correct it was 5 1/4 inch not 5 1/2 inch. The read track function works somewhat on the WD1791 if it is able to sync up.  Sometimes you need to read a track several times to get it to read correctly.  It also starts reading at the first address mark it finds and ignores the index pulse. The WD1971 used a 1MHz clock for single and double density 5 1/4" disks and a 2MHz clock for single and double density 8" disks.  This gave the 8" disk double the data density of a 5 1/4" disk. When testing my formatting code on the Gimix controller I used the read track to verify that i was writing the sectors correctly. On 5/17/2023 3:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2023, Mike Katz wrote: >> If you have access to a Gimix SS-50 6809 or 6800 system, Gimix used >> the WD1791 in their double density disk controller.  That controller >> can do single and double density 5 1/2" and 8" disks (250KHz, 500KHz >> & 1MHz data rates). > > Some NEC 765 controllers, including the original 5150/5160 are > hard-wried to not be able to do single density, and they have a > limited range of data transfer rates. > > Other than that, 5170 style controllers can do double density 5.25" > (sorry, there is no 5 1/2" disk), and 8". > The ones that support single density (check Dave Dunfield's site) can > do single and double density 5.25" and 8". > > The 1MHz data transfer rate is needed for the 2.8M 3.5". > > So, those capabilities are same as many NEC 765 PCs. > > > But, the WD1791 includes a real TRACK READ!  Try that for Amiga! > The NEC 765 design does not have a real TRACK READ; instead, it offers > a multiple sector read. > --===============5087579592447012735==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Thu May 18 00:54:27 2023 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 02:25:17 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <685bb476-5826-0205-a3bc-d6d52a381ef5@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4011635953711135214==" --===============4011635953711135214== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 12:02:05PM -0500, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > That is because Amiga uses GCR recording rather then FM or MFM. Nope. You may have gotten confused with the Commodore 64 drives, which were very Special, or perhaps early Apple gear. The Amiga's disk controller supports both GCR and MFM, but MFM was used by default because it is higher-density and the blitter can be used to perform MFM decoding. It can read and write PC disks just fine using a third-party block device driver (one was later bought-in and shipped with Workbench), but the native format uses a different sector scheme which gets 880kiB on a DD disk instead of the usual 720kiB of the PC. Said third-party device drivers are flexible enough that they'll handle disks from other platforms which use PC-compatible disk controllers such as the Atari ST, Acorn Archimedes, Sun workstations, and later Apple Macs. The Amiga pretty much died before HD disks became standard, although some Amiga-compatible HD drives exist and gave 1760kiB per disk. These were like hen's teeth even back then. I have one and have never seen another. --===============4011635953711135214==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 18 01:38:37 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 18:38:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2191383123547135738==" --===============2191383123547135738== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> That is because Amiga uses GCR recording rather then FM or MFM. > On Thu, 18 May 2023, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > Nope. You may have gotten confused with the Commodore 64 drives, which > were very Special, or perhaps early Apple gear. > > The Amiga's disk controller supports both GCR and MFM, but MFM was used by > default because it is higher-density and the blitter can be used to perform > MFM decoding. It can read and write PC disks just fine using a third-party > block device driver (one was later bought-in and shipped with Workbench), > but the native format uses a different sector scheme which gets 880kiB on a > DD disk instead of the usual 720kiB of the PC. > > Said third-party device drivers are flexible enough that they'll handle > disks from other platforms which use PC-compatible disk controllers such as > the Atari ST, Acorn Archimedes, Sun workstations, and later Apple Macs. > > The Amiga pretty much died before HD disks became standard, although some > Amiga-compatible HD drives exist and gave 1760kiB per disk. These were like > hen's teeth even back then. I have one and have never seen another. It's an easy, and common, mistake to make, . . . Almost all other MFM formats use a track and sector layout based on what was developed by IBM, long before the PC. Traditionally, it was called "IBM format", but for the last 42 years, that name has only added to the confusion, because most people who were NOT in computers more than 40 years ago will mistakenly assume that the name is referring to IBM PC. To avoid that confusion, I call it "IBM/WD" format, which is less ambiguous, since although IBM developed the style of format, Western Digital had a major part in making it ubiquitous. The Amiga is MFM, but does not follow the IBM/WD format "standard". The NEC 765 FDC has trouble with it, because the NEC is looking for IBM/WD sectors and tracks. The NEC FDC can be TRICKED into reading it. Part of that involves changing drive select in mid-read. In the relatively early days, Amiga came out with a 5.25" drive and software to emulate PC! It was close enough in compatability to be able to run XenoCopy (once called "the acid test of compatability"!) and read SOME formats. But, people were displeased with the performance; it was as slow as an AT. They got the elephant to fly!, but people complained about the speed and payload. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2191383123547135738==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Thu May 18 04:06:39 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 05:06:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2818952012003506574==" --===============2818952012003506574== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 8:38 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > The earliest Osbornes were single density with ten 256 byte sectors per > track. I was able to write some code on TRS80 model 1 to read those. > Many PC FDCs, including the IBM 5150/5160, can not do FM/single-density. > > Then Osborne came out with a "double density upgrade". The > MFM/Double-density Osborne disks are easy to do with PC, if you are > familiar with INT13h and INT1Eh. It's odd... The Osborne had a double-density-capable disk controller chip (WD1793) from the start. The double density board is the necessary data separator and write precompensation stuff. I have it in my Osborne, thankfully. I also have the 80 column 'Screenpac' upgrade, which is not relevant here. -tony --===============2818952012003506574==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Thu May 18 04:12:06 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 05:11:48 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <43ada5d0-6871-ed71-399c-4ab192fa56b5@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7067677911799532235==" --===============7067677911799532235== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 8:49 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > As much as Tony doesn't like it, I need to point out that a modern MCU > quite often has as much (or more) RAM, and runs faster than many older > PCs. Consider, for example, the lowly STM32H7A3 series. 1.4MB of RAM, > 2MB of program flash, 5 DMA controllers, ethernet, TFT LCD, up to 164 5V > tolerant GPIOs, USB OTG...I won't go on. Now wait a second. I never said that in this thread. I said that I know nothing about them. I am NOT, repeat NOT, contemplating wiring up a load of TTL or AM2900 bit slice chips or... to make a floppy controller or a flux transition time recorder. I am happy to use a microcontroller. But as I know nothing about them I am looking for a solution that 'works'. I do not want to start having to rewrite the firmware. > > Why tinker around with a PC when your MCU is more powerful? I store my > retrieved data on a 32GB SD card. I enjoy classic computers which are simple enough for me to understand and to get to do what _I_ want. This does not mean they're the only thing I consider for solving a problem. -tony --===============7067677911799532235==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Thu May 18 04:16:40 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 05:16:21 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20f6412f-cb8c-4e3b-d7bf-729f69ce5c9a@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1726416396152213192==" --===============1726416396152213192== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 9:28 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I have to agree with the folk on here who recommend some kind of flux > reader/writer like the greaseweazle. OK, that's what I thought. Now what are the options. Greaseweazle or.... ? What are the advantages and disadvantates of each? For the Greaseweazle it looks like I can get one and it seems to be open source with schematics of the hardware. I'd prefer more buffering of the disk drive signals, but anyway. Will it do what I want? -tony --===============1726416396152213192==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 18 04:44:23 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 21:44:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3715111993547771329==" --===============3715111993547771329== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The earliest Osbornes were single density with ten 256 byte sectors per >> track. I was able to write some code on TRS80 model 1 to read those. >> Many PC FDCs, including the IBM 5150/5160, can not do FM/single-density. >> Then Osborne came out with a "double density upgrade". The >> MFM/Double-density Osborne disks are easy to do with PC, if you are >> familiar with INT13h and INT1Eh. On Thu, 18 May 2023, Tony Duell wrote: > It's odd... The Osborne had a double-density-capable disk controller > chip (WD1793) from the start. The double density board is the > necessary data separator and write precompensation stuff. > I have it in my Osborne, thankfully. I also have the 80 column > 'Screenpac' upgrade, which is not relevant here. No, but it sure did make it nicer to use! Sometime, I should ask Lee Felsenstein about what was going on. Perhaps, Adam was in a big hurry to get it released, and perhaps the double density was removed from the specs until the data separator and write precomp could be ready? Or, . . . maybe the early design had a 1771?, and then when they switched to the 1793, they removed the MFM functionality for existing orders? But, Adam would NEVER have delayed announcing an upgrade. THAT was his usual fatal foot-shot. I was right across the aisle at the Computer Faire when he announced the machine. We were peddling the Elcompco model 1, which was a TRS80 repackaged in a Halliburton attache case, with added data acquisition hardware. On the TRS80, the 1771 had serious problems unless/until you added a data deparator. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3715111993547771329==-- From labomb_s@yahoo.com Thu May 18 12:47:53 2023 From: Scott LaBombard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 12:47:41 +0000 Message-ID: <1456554693.2236809.1684414062264@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8800380990046536882==" --===============8800380990046536882== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re. other flux options, there's also the KryoFlux floppy controller, or if y= ou're an Apple user the applesauce floppy controller. The Greaseweazle is an open source solution, and likely the most cost effecti= ve.=C2=A0 On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:16:42 AM EDT, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 9:28=E2=80=AFPM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I have to agree with the folk on here who recommend some kind of flux > reader/writer like the greaseweazle. OK, that's what I thought. Now what are the options. Greaseweazle or.... ? What are the advantages and disadvantates of each? For the Greaseweazle it looks like I can get one and it seems to be open source with schematics of the hardware. I'd prefer more buffering of the disk drive signals, but anyway. Will it do what I want? -tony =20 --===============8800380990046536882==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Thu May 18 14:16:06 2023 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 15:15:59 +0100 Message-ID: <21242930-cb8e-7344-a5e3-cbc22fb0d61f@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0451429427474150093==" --===============0451429427474150093== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 18/05/2023 05:16, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > Now what are the options. Greaseweazle or.... ? What are the > advantages and disadvantates of each? > > For the Greaseweazle it looks like I can get one and it seems to be > open source with schematics of the hardware. I'd prefer more buffering > of the disk drive signals, but anyway. Will it do what I want? Both Greaseweazle and FluxEngine are open source software and based on (different) standard hardware. A ready built Greaseweazle is less than £25 and the PSoC? dev board the FluxEngine uses was about £20 but you get to solder on a connector. I picked the FluxEngine because I could get hold of the parts at the time, and I still think that's probably your main consideration. Software wise they seem to have similar capabilities. If you have a specific list of formats you care about you could check: Geaseweazel formats: https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki/Supported-Image-Types FluxEngine formats: http://cowlark.com/fluxengine/index.html There are other flux readers out there but they either don't seem to have much momentum behind them (so you might be stuck if you need a new format added) or they're closed like KyroFlux. At ~£25 you're unlikely to lose much with either of the two front runners :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============0451429427474150093==-- From ats@offog.org Thu May 18 14:39:09 2023 From: Adam Sampson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 15:01:20 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1931330566718194123==" --===============1931330566718194123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tony, I recently built the simplest "F1" version of Keir Fraser's Greaseweazle, and it works fine with a 3.5" drive. I'm using Linux, so my software recommendations may not be the same as you're after, but for reference here's what I did... Tony Duell via cctalk writes: > So what I am asking is for people to describe what to do as in : > Buy this microcontroller board A "blue pill" STM32F103C8T6 board. I bought a bag of 10 of these from an eBay seller in 2016, but they are still available from many suppliers. I've used a few of them for different projects -- they have a fast ARM CPU and lots of IO pins, but not much RAM. Be careful that there are also similar boards with "compatible" chips that may or may not work. The Greaseweazle project includes a test program that you can upload to the board (in the same way as the firmware below) to check whether a board will work. https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki/STM32-Fakes > Buy this blank PCB and solder the components given in the BOM to it. The schematics for the various versions of the interface are here: https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki/Design-Files The F1 circuit is so simple that I just built it on stripboard (using a hacksaw to split the tracks for the floppy connector). It connects the STM32's output pins directly to the floppy drive's inputs, which apparently doesn't work reliably with 5.25" drives; I will probably build a version with buffered outputs at some point. > Download this software and install it by doing this. Precompiled binaries of the Greaseweazle firmware for the STM32 are available here: https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle-firmware/releases/ I installed it by connecting a USB 3.3V serial adaptor to the STM32's serial pins, moving the boot mode jumper on the STM32 board to the programming position, pushing the reset button, and running: stm32flash -b 115200 -w hex/greaseweazle-firmware-f1-1.3.hex /dev/ttyUSB0 That's this tool: https://sourceforge.net/p/stm32flash/wiki/Home/ I then moved the jumper back to the normal position, disconnected the serial cable, plugged the board's USB connector into my computer, and it initialised happily as a USB device. (I did try building the firmware from source as well, but the result failed to complete USB initialisation -- I probably have a newer version of GCC than the developers are using. The Greaseweazle docs describe how to install the firmware a different way if you have a dedicated STM32 programming device.) > Connect a standard floppy drive to this connector I used an ex-PC 3.5" drive and cable. The F1 circuit connects all the drive select pins together so it only supports one drive, but both twisted and non-twisted cables will work. The fancier versions of the circuit feed the drive selects individually. > Run the software, specify the disk image file and sit back. The host software, written in Python, is available here: https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki/Download-Host-Tools It detects the USB device automatically if it's attached -- you don't have to configure anything. You can read a disk into an image file, assuming the disk is in a format that the tools know about, with a command like: gw read --format ibm.1440 MyDisk.img This will verify sector checksums as it goes and reread tracks if errors are detected. You can also read the raw flux transitions by specifying "raw" format, and process it later with disk-utilities. You can write an image file to a disk with a similar command: gw write --format amiga.amigados MyDisk.adf It's also apparently possible to use David Given's FluxEngine program to do the same kinds of thing -- I've not tried this yet but it looks interesting: http://cowlark.com/fluxengine/ Hope this helps, -- Adam Sampson --===============1931330566718194123==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 18 15:17:12 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 09:17:04 -0600 Message-ID: <8e3cf851-cef0-8daa-9f5e-52feb1482ede@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <21242930-cb8e-7344-a5e3-cbc22fb0d61f@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2222917377168418413==" --===============2222917377168418413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-05-18 8:15 a.m., Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > There are other flux readers out there but they either don't seem to > have much momentum behind them (so you might be stuck if you need a new > format added) or they're closed like KyroFlux. > > > At ~£25 you're unlikely to lose much with either of the two front > runners :-) But what if I want RS232 serial interface instead of USB? > Antonio > Ben. --===============2222917377168418413==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Thu May 18 15:48:28 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 16:48:01 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <21242930-cb8e-7344-a5e3-cbc22fb0d61f@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5622085263172732882==" --===============5622085263172732882== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 3:16=E2=80=AFPM Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > At ~=C2=A325 you're unlikely to lose much with either of the two front > runners :-) Unfortunately in my case that is not true. I ordered a Greaseweazle earlier today and downloaded the software. Of course there is no such thing as documentation.... I read on the web site that to use it under Windows 8.1 I had to install a device driver and to do that I needed a program called 'zadig.exe'. I downloaded that following the link on the Greaseweazle page. Now I don't yet have the Greaseweazle but I decided to just check that the programs would run. They do not The gw software itself falls over with a moan about a missing .dll. The bit I recognise is 'stdio'. No idea where or how to get htat. zadig was worse. I gave it permission to make changes but AFAIK didn't ask it to change anything. None-the-less I've lost RS232 communications (the USB-serial cable was plugged in at the time). I can find no way to get that to work again. So I've lost the ability to program and read PALs and EPROMs. talk to my palmtops, calcultors and other machines and so on. Bascially I can't do much.. I wish I'd never listened to people who said this was easy and would work fin= e. Never again. -tony --===============5622085263172732882==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 18 16:05:34 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 09:05:18 -0700 Message-ID: <1450b0b3-398e-d80e-beb5-9eea81f95355@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0895143131766528318==" --===============0895143131766528318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/18/23 08:48, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > I wish I'd never listened to people who said this was easy and would work f= ine. >=20 > Never again. >=20 I warned you about modern open-source, didn't I? I'm surprised that nobody suggested the Catweasel line. Probably one of the first, if not the first, transition recorder generally available. Ranges from the Mark I, which is an ISA device to the Mark 4, which is PCI. Long out of production--I suspect that Jens decided that he had to move on. Software for that was always open-source, yet nobody seems to remember it. I suspect that greasweazle appeals because it's cheap. There's also Kyroflux, DeviceSide, FluxEngine...using MCU based designs. The idea's the same. What I'm a bit surprised about is that there has been no emulation of a generic floppy controller offered. It can't be that complex; if I recall correctly the NEC 765 only used 1100 words of microcode. --Chuck --===============0895143131766528318==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Thu May 18 16:28:07 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 17:27:40 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1450b0b3-398e-d80e-beb5-9eea81f95355@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4623258217747081620==" --===============4623258217747081620== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 5:05=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/18/23 08:48, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > > I wish I'd never listened to people who said this was easy and would work= fine. > > > > Never again. > > > > I warned you about modern open-source, didn't I? Indeed you did. I should have listened to you. > I'm surprised that nobody suggested the Catweasel line. Probably one of > the first, if not the first, transition recorder generally available. > Ranges from the Mark I, which is an ISA device to the Mark 4, which is > PCI. Long out of production--I suspect that Jens decided that he had to > move on. Problem is that I have no ISA machines with a USB port. And nothing at all with PCI slots. > > Software for that was always open-source, yet nobody seems to remember it. > > I suspect that greasweazle appeals because it's cheap. There's also > Kyroflux, DeviceSide, FluxEngine...using MCU based designs. I am not going to try any of them. I just hope I can find some way to restore RS232 communications on this machine. As it is, I can neither do real work nor hobbies. > > The idea's the same. What I'm a bit surprised about is that there has > been no emulation of a generic floppy controller offered. It can't be > that complex; if I recall correctly the NEC 765 only used 1100 words of > microcode. I know the microcode for the DEC RX01 (FM only) which was published in the printset and the RX02 (FM and M2FM) which was never published but which I disassembled and commented were not hard to understand. -tony --===============4623258217747081620==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Thu May 18 16:32:15 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 17:32:00 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <28646669-d127-35b9-10ad-ff3c66b1e97b@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0346679613797202054==" --===============0346679613797202054== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 5:28 PM Mike Katz wrote: > > I run the greaseweazle under window 10 and windows 11. I havent' seen > any problems as of yet but I am using the command line utilities mostly. I was running from the command line too. Typing 'gw' just gets a dialogue box moaning that the program can't run because I don't have some .dll or other. But that's a minor issue. The loss of RS232 communications is a lot more serious. -tony --===============0346679613797202054==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 18 16:53:13 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 09:46:19 -0700 Message-ID: <72d13abf-6c79-72a2-1d65-e30c14c631ac@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6982268784597745901==" --===============6982268784597745901== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/18/23 09:32, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 5:28 PM Mike Katz wrote: >> >> I run the greaseweazle under window 10 and windows 11. I havent' seen >> any problems as of yet but I am using the command line utilities mostly. > > I was running from the command line too. Typing 'gw' just gets a > dialogue box moaning that the program can't run because I don't have > some .dll or other. > > But that's a minor issue. The loss of RS232 communications is a lot > more serious. Maybe I should pass my design to you. As with my Pertec interface controller, my disk version has the option to select either serial (TTL level RS232 async) or USB (CDC ACM) interfaces (compile-time option). Requires no special software on the host end. File transfer is via YMODEM-1K, however. Maybe that's a stumbling block for you. But I forgot that you don't like building stuff. --Chuck --===============6982268784597745901==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 18 17:28:14 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 11:28:47 -0500 Message-ID: <28646669-d127-35b9-10ad-ff3c66b1e97b@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0172532894130984848==" --===============0172532894130984848== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I run the greaseweazle under window 10 and windows 11.=C2=A0 I havent' seen=20 any problems as of yet but I am using the command line utilities mostly. On 5/18/2023 10:48 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 3:16=E2=80=AFPM Antonio Carlini via cctalk > wrote: > >> At ~=C2=A325 you're unlikely to lose much with either of the two front >> runners :-) > Unfortunately in my case that is not true. > > I ordered a Greaseweazle earlier today and downloaded the software. Of > course there is no such thing as documentation.... > > I read on the web site that to use it under Windows 8.1 I had to > install a device driver and to do that I needed a program called > 'zadig.exe'. I downloaded that following the link on the Greaseweazle > page. > > Now I don't yet have the Greaseweazle but I decided to just check that > the programs would run. They do not > > The gw software itself falls over with a moan about a missing .dll. > The bit I recognise is 'stdio'. No idea where or how to get htat. > > zadig was worse. I gave it permission to make changes but AFAIK didn't > ask it to change anything. None-the-less I've lost RS232 > communications (the USB-serial cable was plugged in at the time). I > can find no way to get that to work again. > > So I've lost the ability to program and read PALs and EPROMs. talk to > my palmtops, calcultors and other machines and so on. Bascially I > can't do much.. > > I wish I'd never listened to people who said this was easy and would work f= ine. > > Never again. > > -tony --===============0172532894130984848==-- From r_a_feldman@hotmail.com Thu May 18 18:49:09 2023 From: Robert Feldman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 18:49:02 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6229702878287133656==" --===============6229702878287133656== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Message: 23 >Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 17:32:00 +0100 >From: Tony Duell >Subject: [cctalk] > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 20:01:53 +0100 Message-ID: <84AADE05-17FE-4616-9563-F48BAD35A8EB@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: <79BE6825-98CB-45E9-8F24-542D3B9522A7@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4667530902873254688==" --===============4667530902873254688== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 > My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a standard PC floppy drive (a = dual drive if possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support). Then run Linux, u= se the "fdparm" tool to set the media format if necessary, and copy the image= with "dd". >=20 > Roughly speaking this is how I read and write RX50 floppies. More precisel= y, I usually do it with my "rstsflx" tool, which (a) understands RSTS file sy= stems so I can manipulate things at that level, and (b) knows about RX50 inte= rleaving and how to issue the ioctl that sets 10 sector per track format. >=20 > paul >=20 My views exactly.=20 I=E2=80=99ve had great experiences with a PIII Dell GX1. I=E2=80=99m most com= fortable in a Windows enviroment, and have found both PUTR, for DOS, and Omni= flop for Windows NT, to be perfectly suitable for writing disk images. PUTR i= s mainly for DEC=20 As for loading in/loading out files from images, there=E2=80=99s likely at le= ast something out there you can make use of. Even if there=E2=80=99s no host = OS native software for writing directly to images, there=E2=80=99s almost cer= tainly an emulator, which would work off disk images that can later be writte= n to real hardware disks. Ultimately, there are ways and means to do this, but ultimately an older PC w= ith a real floppy controller is by large the easiest way. Josh --===============4667530902873254688==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 18 19:03:01 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 12:02:51 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCH0PR18MB4195ED5D4FA54441E5EBC10AB57F9=40CH0PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?4195=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2584984320800649366==" --===============2584984320800649366== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can you fix it using MODE.com from a DOS prompt? Or, a full re-install of the USB-RS232 dongle? Long ago, I learned, the hard way, that I should always make a complete backup, or at least a restore point, before installing anything new, or making any change. I wish that I would remember to apply that lesson more consistently. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2584984320800649366==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 18 19:08:20 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 15:08:10 -0400 Message-ID: <63BE61A9-93DE-4D49-8822-824B14A7EDC2@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <84AADE05-17FE-4616-9563-F48BAD35A8EB@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4326383974316656627==" --===============4326383974316656627== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 18, 2023, at 3:01 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a standard PC floppy drive (a= dual drive if possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support). Then run Linux, = use the "fdparm" tool to set the media format if necessary, and copy the imag= e with "dd". >>=20 >> Roughly speaking this is how I read and write RX50 floppies. More precise= ly, I usually do it with my "rstsflx" tool, which (a) understands RSTS file s= ystems so I can manipulate things at that level, and (b) knows about RX50 int= erleaving and how to issue the ioctl that sets 10 sector per track format. >>=20 >> paul >>=20 >=20 > My views exactly.=20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve had great experiences with a PIII Dell GX1. I=E2=80=99m most c= omfortable in a Windows enviroment, and have found both PUTR, for DOS, and Om= niflop for Windows NT, to be perfectly suitable for writing disk images. PUTR= is mainly for DEC=20 >=20 > As for loading in/loading out files from images, there=E2=80=99s likely at = least something out there you can make use of. Even if there=E2=80=99s no hos= t OS native software for writing directly to images, there=E2=80=99s almost c= ertainly an emulator, which would work off disk images that can later be writ= ten to real hardware disks. This is why I avoid MS products. They don't offer stuff like that, which on = Unix is a perfectly normal operation available via dd or other ways. =20 paul --===============4326383974316656627==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Thu May 18 19:09:06 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 20:08:42 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5754075412711505865==" --===============5754075412711505865== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 8:03 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 18 May 2023, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: > > Can you fix it using MODE.com from a DOS prompt? > > Or, a full re-install of the USB-RS232 dongle? Depends on what you mean by a re-install... Asking Windows to check the driver and install the correct/latest one did not help. Deleting the driver totally and then removing/reconnecting the USB end of the interface cable got it to find the correct driver. So at least I can talk to my device programmers, etc, again. Quite why the software decided to replace that driver for me without telling me is a mystery. Needless to say I am not going to run it again. > > Long ago, I learned, the hard way, that I should always make a complete > backup, or at least a restore point, before installing anything new, or > making any change. > > I wish that I would remember to apply that lesson more consistently. 'Scratch monkeys' sprng to mind :-) -tony --===============5754075412711505865==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 18 19:10:02 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 12:09:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <84AADE05-17FE-4616-9563-F48BAD35A8EB@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3121351187845579202==" --===============3121351187845579202== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a standard PC floppy drive > (a dual drive if possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support). Hmmm. a modern laptop for connecting to the interwebs. with sneaker-net of thumb drives to: a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB), with floppy drives. THEN, the entire collection of fun machines. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3121351187845579202==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 18 19:15:10 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 12:15:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1320170789112247599==" --===============1320170789112247599== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>> >>> >> Can you fix it using MODE.com from a DOS prompt? >> Or, a full re-install of the USB-RS232 dongle? On Thu, 18 May 2023, Tony Duell wrote: > Depends on what you mean by a re-install... > Asking Windows to check the driver and install the correct/latest one > did not help. rarely does > Deleting the driver totally and then removing/reconnecting the USB end > of the interface cable got it to find the correct driver. So at least > I can talk to my device programmers, etc, again. That is EXACTLY what I mean by "full re-instaall" > Quite why the software decided to replace that driver for me without > telling me is a mystery. Needless to say I am not going to run it > again. perhaps an assumption that one would never have ANY other USB item connected other than it? Or "upgrading" some lower level part of the USB interface? >> Long ago, I learned, the hard way, that I should always make a complete >> backup, or at least a restore point, before installing anything new, or >> making any change. >> >> I wish that I would remember to apply that lesson more consistently. > > 'Scratch monkeys' sprng to mind :-) --===============1320170789112247599==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 18 19:20:21 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 12:20:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1450b0b3-398e-d80e-beb5-9eea81f95355@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5844169855554654116==" --===============5844169855554654116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 18 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The idea's the same. What I'm a bit surprised about is that there has > been no emulation of a generic floppy controller offered. It can't be > that complex; if I recall correctly the NEC 765 only used 1100 words of > microcode. That is exactly what I want. Fully transparent. Full implementation of INT13h, 1Eh plus the added functions of read/write a flux transition track, and simple command line software for image/write image of entire disk. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5844169855554654116==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu May 18 19:23:09 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 19:23:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0951536089972561449==" --===============0951536089972561449== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: flux images.=20 Tony, There are flux images on the internet archive if you want to practice u= sing them. Sent from my iPhone > On May 18, 2023, at 12:20, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, 18 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> The idea's the same. What I'm a bit surprised about is that there has >> been no emulation of a generic floppy controller offered. It can't be >> that complex; if I recall correctly the NEC 765 only used 1100 words of >> microcode. >=20 > That is exactly what I want. Fully transparent. > Full implementation of INT13h, 1Eh > plus the added functions of read/write a flux transition track, >=20 > and simple command line software for image/write image of entire disk. >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============0951536089972561449==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 18 20:19:43 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Paper Tape Reader Needed Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 15:19:34 -0500 Message-ID: <42719869-420b-ea19-1998-efcad1addedf@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <59b5c2e7-5007-6cc9-0f49-3def74173047@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5745655968508692817==" --===============5745655968508692817== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have just acquired a number of PDP-8 paper tapes.  My reader/punch is not working at the moment (neither is my PDP-8 but that's another story). I am looking to beg, borrow or buy a paper tape reader or reader/punch (stand alone or PC04) so that I can archive these tapes as they are getting more and more rare. I would prefer a serial (RS-232) reader or reader/punch but I could deal with a parallel and create my own parallel to serial converter or get some kind of USB to parallel adapter. There are several "hand pull" types of readers out there (like the OP-80A) but I am afraid of damaging the very old fanfold paper tape by using my inconsistent hand rather than some kind of motor driven mechanism which is designed for smooth paper tape flow. Does anyone have any ideas or something they have to sell or donate? Please contact me by email directly. Note:  This is also being posted to the VCF DEC Forum. Thank you,          Mike Katz          bitwiz(a)12bitsbe --===============5745655968508692817==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 18 20:47:01 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 16:46:48 -0400 Message-ID: <8E3BBCB1-5AA2-4B11-ADA9-7FCCC1F6FB77@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7664789439162270538==" --===============7664789439162270538== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 18, 2023, at 3:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a standard PC floppy drive (a= dual drive if possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support). >=20 > Hmmm. > a modern laptop for connecting to the interwebs. > with sneaker-net of thumb drives to: > a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB), with floppy d= rives. That would work but it doesn't need to be quite that old. My floppy-writing = machine is a Gateway Pentium machine, with Ethernet, running Linux. So when = I need stuff transferred I just scp it to that machine, then run whatever too= l I need to do the transfer (rstsflx or dd, depending on what I'm manipulatin= g). paul --===============7664789439162270538==-- From brain@jbrain.com Thu May 18 21:44:10 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 16:44:03 -0500 Message-ID: <1611b6e9-5f12-aab7-9a8d-26297e4e7027@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <63BE61A9-93DE-4D49-8822-824B14A7EDC2@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1979637235326210161==" --===============1979637235326210161== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/18/2023 2:08 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> As for loading in/loading out files from images, there=E2=80=99s likely at= =20 >> least something out there you can make use of. Even if there=E2=80=99s no = >> host OS native software for writing directly to images, there=E2=80=99s=20 >> almost certainly an emulator, which would work off disk images that=20 >> can later be written to real hardware disks.=20 > This is why I avoid MS products. They don't offer stuff like that, which o= n Unix is a perfectly normal operation available via dd or other ways. cygwin has always been my friend on Wintel boxes.=C2=A0 dd available there=20 and works just fine.=C2=A0 WSL can also be used, but cygwin has served me=20 fine so far. I guess, given the thread title, I should shamelessly plug that all of=20 you with latent Commodore 8 bit disk images can use ZoomFloppy via a=20 15X1/or PET drive and a USB connection to put those images onto disks.=C2=A0 = Grab one now from the store! Jim --===============1979637235326210161==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 18 22:45:21 2023 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 18:36:35 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8E3BBCB1-5AA2-4B11-ADA9-7FCCC1F6FB77@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1330492851247932148==" --===============1330492851247932148== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 18 May 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On May 18, 2023, at 3:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >>> My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a standard PC floppy drive (= a dual drive if possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support). >> >> Hmmm. >> a modern laptop for connecting to the interwebs. >> with sneaker-net of thumb drives to: >> a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB), with floppy = drives. > > That would work but it doesn't need to be quite that old. My floppy-writin= g=20 > machine is a Gateway Pentium machine, with Ethernet, running Linux. So whe= n=20 > I need stuff transferred I just scp it to that machine, then run whatever=20 > tool I need to do the transfer (rstsflx or dd, depending on what I'm=20 > manipulating). My imaging system hs an Abit KV8PRO motherboard, with an Athlon CPU,=20 onboard 10/100/1000 ethernet, 1 AGP 8X/4X slot, 5 PCI slots, SATA and IDE=20 drive support, 4 USB ports, and a SCSI card. The onboard floppy controller=20 will handle all formats except 128 byte/sector MFM. I haven't run across=20 anything yet that uses that format. I run either Linux or FreeDOS on the=20 system, depending on which tools I need. Dave Dunfield's IMD tools work great= =20 under FreeDOS, and I use Linux to transfer files in and out of the system. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============1330492851247932148==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu May 18 22:53:46 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper Tape Reader Needed Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 18:53:28 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42719869-420b-ea19-1998-efcad1addedf@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6163970396937545558==" --===============6163970396937545558== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where are you located Bill On Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:19 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I have just acquired a number of PDP-8 paper tapes. My reader/punch is > not working at the moment (neither is my PDP-8 but that's another story). > > I am looking to beg, borrow or buy a paper tape reader or reader/punch > (stand alone or PC04) so that I can archive these tapes as they are > getting more and more rare. > > I would prefer a serial (RS-232) reader or reader/punch but I could deal > with a parallel and create my own parallel to serial converter or get > some kind of USB to parallel adapter. > > There are several "hand pull" types of readers out there (like the > OP-80A) but I am afraid of damaging the very old fanfold paper tape by > using my inconsistent hand rather than some kind of motor driven > mechanism which is designed for smooth paper tape flow. > > Does anyone have any ideas or something they have to sell or donate? > > Please contact me by email directly. > > Note: This is also being posted to the VCF DEC Forum. > > Thank you, > > Mike Katz > bitwiz(a)12bitsbe > --===============6163970396937545558==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 18 23:02:26 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper Tape Reader Needed Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 18:02:16 -0500 Message-ID: <332140de-2251-5b99-97b3-2c1f6430dbb9@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1718973783806177801==" --===============1718973783806177801== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill, I live in the western suburbs of Chicago. Glen Ellyn to be precise (60137-3794).    Mike On 5/18/2023 5:53 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Where are you located > Bill > > On Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:19 PM Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: > >> I have just acquired a number of PDP-8 paper tapes. My reader/punch is >> not working at the moment (neither is my PDP-8 but that's another story). >> >> I am looking to beg, borrow or buy a paper tape reader or reader/punch >> (stand alone or PC04) so that I can archive these tapes as they are >> getting more and more rare. >> >> I would prefer a serial (RS-232) reader or reader/punch but I could deal >> with a parallel and create my own parallel to serial converter or get >> some kind of USB to parallel adapter. >> >> There are several "hand pull" types of readers out there (like the >> OP-80A) but I am afraid of damaging the very old fanfold paper tape by >> using my inconsistent hand rather than some kind of motor driven >> mechanism which is designed for smooth paper tape flow. >> >> Does anyone have any ideas or something they have to sell or donate? >> >> Please contact me by email directly. >> >> Note: This is also being posted to the VCF DEC Forum. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Mike Katz >> bitwiz(a)12bitsbe >> --===============1718973783806177801==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu May 18 23:48:01 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 16:47:55 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8302509312749704757==" --===============8302509312749704757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 18 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The idea's the same. What I'm a bit surprised about is that there has > been no emulation of a generic floppy controller offered. It can't be > that complex; if I recall correctly the NEC 765 only used 1100 words of > microcode. That is exactly what I want. Fully transparent. Full implementation of INT13h, 1Eh plus the added functions of read/write a flux transition track, and simple command line software for image/write image of entire disk. And, it would be nice to have it packaged as internal, with 34 pin drive connector and provision for a DC37, external dongle, with DC37 External in housing with dual 1.4M/1.2M drive, plus a DC37 --===============8302509312749704757==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 19 00:52:39 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 17:52:24 -0700 Message-ID: <7c931246-9506-a25f-58fe-2a69ca8a6bba@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0675430806320302783==" --===============0675430806320302783== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/18/23 16:47, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> The idea's the same.   What I'm a bit surprised about is that there has >> been no emulation of a generic floppy controller offered.  It can't be >> that complex; if I recall correctly the NEC 765 only used 1100 words of >> microcode. > > That is exactly what I want.  Fully transparent. > Full implementation of INT13h,  1Eh > plus the added functions of read/write a flux transition track, > > and simple command line software for image/write image of entire disk. > > > And, it would be nice to have it packaged as internal, with 34 pin drive > connector and provision for a DC37, Well, maybe someone will do that for you, but not me. It's probably doable, but I'm snowed under with work right now. I'm looking forward to tinkering with some designs using RISC-V MCUs (that's pronouced "risk-five" if you were wondering). Completely open architecture and, from the benchmarks I've seen, pretty darned fast. --Chuck --===============0675430806320302783==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri May 19 02:04:17 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper Tape Reader Needed Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 21:04:12 -0500 Message-ID: <85dff98a-bb47-b1c1-ed59-9c19e6f00f39@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <42719869-420b-ea19-1998-efcad1addedf@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6293165153237578623==" --===============6293165153237578623== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/18/23 15:19, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I have just acquired a number of PDP-8 paper tapes.  My > reader/punch is not working at the moment (neither is my > PDP-8 but that's another story). > > I am looking to beg, borrow or buy a paper tape reader or > reader/punch (stand alone or PC04) so that I can archive > these tapes as they are getting more and more rare. I have a stepper-sprocket EECO optical paper tape reader with motor-driven reels and spring arms.  One of the arms got broken off but it could still work with fan-fold tapes. It does have a 12 V parallel interface, however.  It is a 19" rack mount unit. Jon --===============6293165153237578623==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri May 19 05:30:43 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper Tape Reader Needed Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 15:31:35 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42719869-420b-ea19-1998-efcad1addedf@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8230581769381434875==" --===============8230581769381434875== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have just acquired a number of PDP-8 paper tapes.  My reader/punch is not working at the moment (neither is my PDP-8 but that's another story). > I am looking to beg, borrow or buy a paper tape reader or reader/punch > (stand alone or PC04) so that I can archive these tapes as they are > getting more and more rare. > I would prefer a serial (RS-232) reader or reader/punch but I could > deal with a parallel and create my own parallel to serial converter or > get some kind of USB to parallel adapter. > There are several "hand pull" types of readers out there (like the > OP-80A) but I am afraid of damaging the very old fanfold paper tape by > using my inconsistent hand rather than some kind of motor driven > mechanism which is designed for smooth paper tape flow. > Does anyone have any ideas or something they have to sell or donate? > Please contact me by email directly. > Note: This is also being posted to the VCF DEC Forum. > > Thank you, > >          Mike Katz >          bitwiz(a)12bitsbe --===============8230581769381434875==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri May 19 11:36:36 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 12:36:19 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2163480833718085031==" --===============2163480833718085031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 18 May 2023 at 20:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB) Hang on a minute. [1] Win98 on a 386? Really? It might work but it will be horribly horribly sl= ow. Win95 was just barely usable on a 386; I benchmarked it at release. [2] I don't think I ever heard of a 386 with USB, or a 386. with PCI slots to add a USB card. [3] Win98SE was, I _think_, maybe the first version to support USB _2_ and maybe the first version with USB key support as standard. This needed a driver on original 98. However it 100% definitely was _not_ the 1st ver with USB 1 support. That was Win95 OSR2, a.k.a. Win95B, in about 1996. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============2163480833718085031==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Fri May 19 12:42:24 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 05:42:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2565224055921454352==" --===============2565224055921454352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, May 19, 2023, 4:36 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > [3] Win98SE was, I _think_, maybe the first version to support USB _2_ > and maybe the first version with USB key support as standard. This > needed a driver on original 98. [4] Microsoft didn't add USB 2.0 support until Windows XP SP1. That USB 2.0 support was also back ported to Windows 2000 SP 4. Microsoft never added USB 2.0 support to Windows 98SE or Windows Me. [5] Microsoft first added USB mass storage support to Windows 2000. That was back ported to the original Windows Me release, but never to Windows 98SE. [6] Any USB 2.0 support on Windows 98SE or Me would have been provided by third-parties, same with any USB mass storage support on Windows 98SE. > --===============2565224055921454352==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri May 19 14:12:51 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 15:12:34 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0402039744682897513==" --===============0402039744682897513== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 13:42, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, May 19, 2023, 4:36 AM Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > [3] Win98SE was, I _think_, maybe the first version to support USB _2_ > > and maybe the first version with USB key support as standard. This > > needed a driver on original 98. > > > [4] Microsoft didn't add USB 2.0 support until Windows XP SP1. That USB 2.0 > support was also back ported to Windows 2000 SP 4. Microsoft never added > USB 2.0 support to Windows 98SE or Windows Me. https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000603.htm I I think that Windows ME had USB 2 at launch. Not sure. ME did support FireWire which cost me quite a lot of money on one job because I did not realise that was a difference between ME & 98 SE. > [5] Microsoft first added USB mass storage support to Windows 2000. That > was back ported to the original Windows Me release, but never to Windows > 98SE. Happy to accept that. It was easily added via any number of third-party drivers though. These were commonly available and in the early days of USB memory keys, it was not unusual for them to come with a floppy with Windows 9x driver. > > [6] Any USB 2.0 support on Windows 98SE or Me would have been provided by > third-parties, same with any USB mass storage support on Windows 98SE. For windows 98, that sounds very plausible. For Windows ME, I think it was built in. My apologies for poor capitalisation etc=E2=80=93 I am dictating these responses into my Mac as I have a broken right arm. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============0402039744682897513==-- From cube1@charter.net Fri May 19 14:35:09 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper Tape Reader Needed Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 09:35:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42719869-420b-ea19-1998-efcad1addedf@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8926028721555310701==" --===============8926028721555310701== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I live in Madison, WI, and have a DEC PC05 on a PDP-11 that can also host a Unibone board to make file transfers easy. I also have a recently restored HP 2748B, for which I have a simple Arduino interface with an Ethernet "hat" to read files into a PC. Neither is available for loan, but I'd be happy to read tapes in for those willing to make a day trip or mail them to me. The PC05 works well for fanfold tapes, but I have found it doesn't work well for larger spooled paper tapes, even though I made a couple of 3D printed inserts to provide a spool post on the input side and an extended guide on the output side. The mass of a large spool puts quite a bit of drag on the sprocket feed. But the HP 2748B works well for both. I'd also point out that there are repositories of a lot of PDP-8 paper tapes around, including: https://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/ which includes tape images from a couple of other repositories. So, aside from installation specific tapes, there is a pretty good chance that someone somewhere already has images. JRJ On 5/18/2023 3:19 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I have just acquired a number of PDP-8 paper tapes.  My reader/punch is > not working at the moment (neither is my PDP-8 but that's another story). > > I am looking to beg, borrow or buy a paper tape reader or reader/punch > (stand alone or PC04) so that I can archive these tapes as they are > getting more and more rare. > > I would prefer a serial (RS-232) reader or reader/punch but I could deal > with a parallel and create my own parallel to serial converter or get > some kind of USB to parallel adapter. > > There are several "hand pull" types of readers out there (like the > OP-80A) but I am afraid of damaging the very old fanfold paper tape by > using my inconsistent hand rather than some kind of motor driven > mechanism which is designed for smooth paper tape flow. > > Does anyone have any ideas or something they have to sell or donate? > > Please contact me by email directly. > > Note:  This is also being posted to the VCF DEC Forum. > > Thank you, > >          Mike Katz >          bitwiz(a)12bitsbe --===============8926028721555310701==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Fri May 19 16:00:34 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 09:00:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4435209067948567664==" --===============4435209067948567664== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, May 19, 2023, 7:12 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > I I think that Windows ME had USB 2 at launch. > That would have been impossible. Windows 2000 RTM date was December 15, 1999. Windows Me RTM date was June 19, 2000. Windows XP RTM date was August 24, 2001. The Intel Enhanced Host Controller Interface (EHCI) specification revision 1.0 is dated March 12, 2002, almost 2 years after Windows Me RTM. Windows XP SP1 was released on September 9, 2002, which was the first time Microsoft released any USB 2.0 support. Windows 2000 SP4 was released on June 26, 2003, which is when Microsoft released USB 2.0 support ported back to Windows 2000. At that point in time Windows Me was essentially dead and had been for a while. No one at Microsoft was interested in the effort required to port USB 2.0 support back to Windows Me. > --===============4435209067948567664==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri May 19 16:02:11 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 09:01:58 -0700 Message-ID: <738028da-da0d-bc1d-8e2b-584d7b40390d@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7263170878835468611==" --===============7263170878835468611== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/19/23 04:36, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2023 at 20:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> >> a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB) >=20 > Hang on a minute. >=20 > [1] Win98 on a 386? Really? It might work but it will be horribly horribly = slow. >=20 > Win95 was just barely usable on a 386; I benchmarked it at release. I'm not so sure about a 386 and Win98. Seems to me I tried to install 98SE on a 20MHz 386 years ago and it didn't work. Said 386 has a whopping 13MB of RAM, all located on a plug in card. The AT-sized motherboard is nothing but SSI/MSI TTL with no custom chipsets, so no room for RAM. ISTR that there was a Microsoft add-on for 95OSR2, but it wasn't great. My old Toshiba Infinia came with OSR2 and a USB "In Touch" module (I still have about 30 of the things, but that's another story) and it was far from standard protocol. In point of fact, if you plug the module in to a later system with USB, it's not seen at all. Somewhere around here, I still have the USB-to-USB file transfer gizmo; it was very early and, of course, one can't find drivers for it. > However it 100% definitely was _not_ the 1st ver with USB 1 support. >=20 > That was Win95 OSR2, a.k.a. Win95B, in about 1996. --Chuck --===============7263170878835468611==-- From drwho@virtadpt.net Fri May 19 16:16:18 2023 From: The Doctor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper Tape Reader Needed Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 16:16:00 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42719869-420b-ea19-1998-efcad1addedf@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2593216880214269039==" --===============2593216880214269039== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 13:19, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I have just acquired a number of PDP-8 paper tapes. My reader/punch is > not working at the moment (neither is my PDP-8 but that's another story). >=20 > I am looking to beg, borrow or buy a paper tape reader or reader/punch > (stand alone or PC04) so that I can archive these tapes as they are > getting more and more rare. If you can't find a working traditional paper tape reader, you might want to = look into building or borrowing an optical reader. https://hackaday.com/2022/04/16/paper-tape-reader-self-calibrates-speaks-usb/ http://www.e-basteln.de/computing/papertape/overview/ The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean. --===============2593216880214269039==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Fri May 19 21:24:34 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 22:24:26 +0100 Message-ID: <001301d98a98$4a889f30$df99dd90$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <01SR75K1XYI48WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1127791000003033425==" --===============1127791000003033425== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Coghlan via cctalk > Sent: 10 May 2023 12:04 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Cc: Peter Coghlan > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 >=20 > > > > I will do all the suggested checks, but I won't be able to do this for > > a number of days. However, I wanted to understand something in the > meantime. > > The conditions I am applying are (I think!) what would happen during > > startup, and during startup the control board has to make the PWM run, > > otherwise the main switching transistor won't operate and the > > transformer won't operate to produce the -12V in the first place. So > > surely in the startup condition I am applying (which is to supply > > Vstart from a bench PSU) is valid? Where is the flaw in my reasoning here? > > >=20 > The PSU also gives a kick start to the -12V line by applying some negative > voltage probably around -15V to it via a 2k7 resistor (on sheet 1). If you= are > not providing this, perhaps this is why the -12V line is able to swing slig= htly > positive and upset conditions in the -12V current sense circuit enough to > prevent the PWM from starting? >=20 > Even if you are providing this resistor limited -12V startup supply, could = it be > insufficient due to a faulty component leaking current from the -12V line to > ground meaning that the -12V line does not become sufficiently negative to > fulfil the startup conditions? >=20 > Could the PWM be managing to start up and run for a cycle or two and then > stop due to a fault in the PWM circuit somehow attempting to draw too much > current from the -12V line? I don't see any connections from the -12V line= to > the PWM so this is probably not the case. >=20 So, I did the following test. I used my bench PSU to apply +12V to the regula= tor output and -12V to the actual -12V output. Under these conditions the PWM= operated correctly. I repeated the test on the good PSU and the result was t= he same. The good PSU drew 13mA on the -12V line and 92mA from the regulator side. The= bad PSU was 16mA and 86mA respectively. When I test only applying +12V to th= e regulator output, the good PSU draws about 90mA and the bad one 140mA. It is worth repeating that the PWM operates correctly on the good PSU when I = only apply +12V to the regulator, but not on the bad one. I guess there must = be some kind of short somewhere, but really not sure where it might be. It ha= s to be something that is pulling the -12V line slightly higher. The only pla= ce where this seems like it could happen is around E1b I think. Perhaps there= is a path through the positive input to E1b to Vcc on the LM393 (Control Mod= ule Sheet 1). Does that seem logical? > Is this the same PSU whose chopper transistor exploded a while back? Could > there be any carbon deposits remaining on the board or conductive > remnants wedged under components etc causing leakage from the -12V line > to ground? The component nearest to the exploded transistor is the 10uF capacitor on the= output of the 12V regulator. There are some carbon deposits on it. I did a c= ursory check for resistance and ESR and it seemed OK. Regards Rob --===============1127791000003033425==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri May 19 21:58:05 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 22:57:47 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1987817546385774161==" --===============1987817546385774161== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 17:00, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > The Intel Enhanced Host Controller Interface (EHCI) specification revision > 1.0 is dated March 12, 2002, almost 2 years after Windows Me RTM. > > Windows XP SP1 was released on September 9, 2002, which was the first time > Microsoft released any USB 2.0 support. > > Windows 2000 SP4 was released on June 26, 2003, which is when Microsoft > released USB 2.0 support ported back to Windows 2000. I do remember that, because I carried around a USB key with an assortment of service packs, IE installers, etc. and it was sooooooo slow to copy W2K SP4 onto a machine -- until you had SP4 installed... > At that point in time Windows Me was essentially dead and had been for a > while. No one at Microsoft was interested in the effort required to port > USB 2.0 support back to Windows Me. OK, fair enough. I concede. I stand by the 95 stuff, though. 95/95A: FAT16 only, no USB. 95B: FAT32, USB, no IE4, no standard upgrade path. 95C: USB + IE4. 98 onwards: USB as standard; upgrades from 95 supported. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1987817546385774161==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 19 22:40:06 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 15:39:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2562528454069542649==" --===============2562528454069542649== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 19 May 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I do remember that, because I carried around a USB key with an > assortment of service packs, IE installers, etc. and it was sooooooo > slow to copy W2K SP4 onto a machine -- until you had SP4 installed... >> At that point in time Windows Me was essentially dead and had been for a >> while. No one at Microsoft was interested in the effort required to port >> USB 2.0 support back to Windows Me. > OK, fair enough. I concede. > I stand by the 95 stuff, though. > 95/95A: FAT16 only, no USB. > 95B: FAT32, USB, no IE4, no standard upgrade path. > 95C: USB + IE4. > 98 onwards: USB as standard; upgrades from 95 supported. Thanks, everybody for the reminders of the Windoze history. I remember, now, having a Swiss Army knife that had a small thumb drive in it, and having to load a driver into my mother's "e-Machine" Pentium Win98SE machine to copy my files to hers. I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with: "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use. I still suggest the possibility of a current machine for the interwebs, with thumb drive sneaker-net to an alder machine with USB and floppies. Tony already experienced one of the complications with trying to have more than one add-on device on the same machine. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2562528454069542649==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Sat May 20 09:36:04 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Sat, 20 May 2023 09:19:54 +0100 Message-ID: <01SRKZH2F9ZW8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <001301d98a98$4a889f30$df99dd90$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4164325029523486116==" --===============4164325029523486116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Peter Coghlan via cctalk > > Sent: 10 May 2023 12:04 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Cc: Peter Coghlan > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault > >=20 > >=20 > > > > > > I will do all the suggested checks, but I won't be able to do this for > > > a number of days. However, I wanted to understand something in the > > meantime. > > > The conditions I am applying are (I think!) what would happen during > > > startup, and during startup the control board has to make the PWM run, > > > otherwise the main switching transistor won't operate and the > > > transformer won't operate to produce the -12V in the first place. So > > > surely in the startup condition I am applying (which is to supply > > > Vstart from a bench PSU) is valid? Where is the flaw in my reasoning he= re? > > > > >=20 > > The PSU also gives a kick start to the -12V line by applying some negative > > voltage probably around -15V to it via a 2k7 resistor (on sheet 1). If y= ou are > > not providing this, perhaps this is why the -12V line is able to swing sl= ightly > > positive and upset conditions in the -12V current sense circuit enough to > > prevent the PWM from starting? > >=20 > > Even if you are providing this resistor limited -12V startup supply, coul= d it be > > insufficient due to a faulty component leaking current from the -12V line= to > > ground meaning that the -12V line does not become sufficiently negative to > > fulfil the startup conditions? > >=20 > > Could the PWM be managing to start up and run for a cycle or two and then > > stop due to a fault in the PWM circuit somehow attempting to draw too much > > current from the -12V line? I don't see any connections from the -12V li= ne to > > the PWM so this is probably not the case. > >=20 >=20 > So, I did the following test. I used my bench PSU to apply +12V to the > regulator output and -12V to the actual -12V output. Under these conditions > the PWM operated correctly. I repeated the test on the good PSU and the > result was the same. >=20 > The good PSU drew 13mA on the -12V line and 92mA from the regulator side. > The bad PSU was 16mA and 86mA respectively. When I test only applying +12V > to the regulator output, the good PSU draws about 90mA and the bad one 140m= A. >=20 > It is worth repeating that the PWM operates correctly on the good PSU when > I only apply +12V to the regulator, but not on the bad one. I guess there > must be some kind of short somewhere, but really not sure where it might be. > It has to be something that is pulling the -12V line slightly higher. The > only place where this seems like it could happen is around E1b I think. > Perhaps there is a path through the positive input to E1b to Vcc on the > LM393 (Control Module Sheet 1). Does that seem logical? Ok, it looks like there is not a severe leak from the -12V line to ground the= n. I am puzzled by the extra current draw on Vstart by the bad PSU but I'm not sure that tracking this down would lead us to the real problem. On the other hand, did you mention at one point that Vstart was varying? If this is the case, the reason for this would probably need to be found and fixed independent of whether it leads to finding the main problem as this is supposed to be a stable supply. I don't think there is likely to be any serious leakage via E1b because the link to the -12V line is via a 75K resistor which would limit any leakage current to roughly 160uA. Of course this applies if the resistor really is 75K and doesn't have carbon deposits bridging the tracks and connections around it to somewhere else. I would suggest looking carefully at the resistors around E3d to make sure they have the correct values, especially the 360K resistor and making sure there is no debris etc around these components that could be bridging any connections associated with them to somewhere else, also that no connections have been severed. Problems here could be leading to E3d falsely triggering when there is no real overload. It might be useful to check the voltages and resistor values in the -12V regulator and compare with same in the good power supply, especially the voltage across the zener diode. > > > > Is this the same PSU whose chopper transistor exploded a while back? Cou= ld > > there be any carbon deposits remaining on the board or conductive > > remnants wedged under components etc causing leakage from the -12V line > > to ground? >=20 > The component nearest to the exploded transistor is the 10uF capacitor on > the output of the 12V regulator. There are some carbon deposits on it. I did > a cursory check for resistance and ESR and it seemed OK. > This capacitor is probably there to ensure the 7812 doesn't oscillate. Looki= ng at Vstart with an oscilloscope should confirm that this is not an issue. If it doesn't have excessive leakage current and has approximately the correct capacitance, it is probably ok. However, if there is gunk trapped underneath it around the leads, this might account for the extra current draw on Vstart. The explosion could have had other bad effects. Maybe E3 got damaged by a surge in its power supply when the transistor blew up? Maybe the -12V rectifier was affected? It is probably not as robust as the rectifiers for the other lines and the chopper transistor shorting would have likely caused a big current pulse in the chopper transformer primary, leading in turn to surges at it's secondaries. Also the diode in parallel with the 51R sense resistor might be suspect. I'm not sure how to test these components comprehensively without trying replacements for them. If the 7812 was damaged at the time of the explosion, other components powered from Vstart could have experienced surges as well. Maybe stuff on the input side of the 7812 too? Regards, Peter.=20 > > Regards >=20 > Rob > --===============4164325029523486116==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sat May 20 11:22:06 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 20 May 2023 12:21:49 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5540303117395582790==" --===============5540303117395582790== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 23:40, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 19 May 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > I do remember that, because I carried around a USB key with an > > Thanks, everybody for the reminders of the Windoze history. ;-) > > I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop > with floppies and USB", > and replace my suggestion with: > "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use. Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases. I was startled to discover my (long gone) Athlon XP box could only handle a single floppy drive. The BIOS has no option for a 2nd. I can't imagine that was a significant cost saving. > I still suggest the possibility of a current machine for the interwebs, > with thumb drive sneaker-net to an alder machine with USB and floppies. Concur. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5540303117395582790==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat May 20 14:31:40 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 20 May 2023 07:25:39 -0700 Message-ID: <2160d696-169d-da7b-3964-2699033a877a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0215220019029930326==" --===============0215220019029930326== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/20/23 04:21, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I was startled to discover my (long gone) Athlon XP box could only > handle a single floppy drive. The BIOS has no option for a 2nd. > > I can't imagine that was a significant cost saving. It's a matter of pins. I believe that it started when the "SuperIO" chip started packing in more support for various peripheral functions and the 2 pins for drive select and motor control of an extra drive were viewed as least important. Earlier versions of the chip often allowed re-purposing the pins used for the parallel port as an interface for an extra floppy--you saw this on laptop systems, which often had only one floppy drive in any case. cf. Intel's PCISet chip sets. --Chuck --===============0215220019029930326==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Sun May 21 17:27:25 2023 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF Swap Meet June 10, 2023. Wall, NJ. Date: Sun, 21 May 2023 13:27:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4071257304957369429==" --===============4071257304957369429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable VCF will be having another Swap Meet this coming June 10 from 8AM to 2PM for the general public and 7AM for vendors. Signup here to reserve a spot. Same place as the previous swap meets in the big parking lot on Monmouth Boulevard in Wall, NJ . A change for this year is that we will have some food being sold by the South Monmouth Fire Museum. This will be a fundraiser for them and a welcome service for our attendees. All the information that you need is here: https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/ Take care, Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner VCF Mid-Atlantic Event Manager Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ --===============4071257304957369429==-- From r_a_feldman@hotmail.com Sun May 21 20:13:53 2023 From: Robert Feldman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks Date: Sun, 21 May 2023 20:13:46 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6160828393238924378==" --===============6160828393238924378== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Message: 6 >Date: Sat, 20 May 2023 07:25:39 -0700 >From: Chuck Guzis >Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. > >On 5/20/23 04:21, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >> I was startled to discover my (long gone) Athlon XP box could only >> handle a single floppy drive. The BIOS has no option for a 2nd. >> >> I can't imagine that was a significant cost saving. > >It's a matter of pins. I believe that it started when the "SuperIO" >chip started packing in more support for various peripheral functions >and the 2 pins for drive select and motor control of an extra drive were >viewed as least important. Earlier versions of the chip often allowed >re-purposing the pins used for the parallel port as an interface for an >extra floppy--you saw this on laptop systems, which often had only one >floppy drive in any case. cf. Intel's PCISet chip sets. > >--Chuck My main computer is a 15-year old Dell Precision T3400 (Core 2 Duo). It can h= andle multiple floppy drives, but the BIOS does not allow 360KB 5.25" disks, = only 1.2MB in that size. Bob --===============6160828393238924378==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun May 21 20:31:13 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks Date: Sun, 21 May 2023 13:31:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCH0PR18MB419511DCD22C2AA5AA53CCA1B5429=40CH0PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?4195=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6101187803869619604==" --===============6101187803869619604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 21 May 2023, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: > My main computer is a 15-year old Dell Precision T3400 (Core 2 Duo). It can= handle multiple floppy drives, but the BIOS does not allow 360KB 5.25" disks= , only 1.2MB in that size. Does it support "720K" 3.5"? If so, then the hardware can handle "360K" 5.25", and it is therefore a=20 shortage in the BIOS code. --===============6101187803869619604==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Mon May 22 09:40:06 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 10:38:54 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5695729668841754728==" --===============5695729668841754728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 12:22 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 23:40, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Fri, 19 May 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > > I do remember that, because I carried around a USB key with an > > > > Thanks, everybody for the reminders of the Windoze history. > > ;-) > > > > I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop > > with floppies and USB", > > and replace my suggestion with: > > "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use. > > Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from > the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and > dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like > Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases. > I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. The first problem is finding such a machine in known-working condition. Second-hand computer shops are few and far between and generally don't trade in machines that old. Similarly pawnbrokers ('Cash Converters' and the like) don't deal in them. I am not sure I would want to trust something from an unknown seller on the web. And of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to be able to test it before I buy it Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. I'll go on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually want. An PC is not in that category. Not to mention the fact that I doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go. Having it sent to me is inconvenient and I am not sure the machine would survive. Not to mention it would cost more than the machine is worth. Then there's the problem of keeping it going. It's not a PERQ :-) I realise that spare ICs always were unobtainium. But replacement modules -- disk drives, motherboards, etc are no longer made or easily available. I have no PCI cards in my collection at all. No ATX power supplies. I might be able to find a VGA monitor but that's pushing it. And of course no documentation. At least the Greaseweazle is open-source which is better than nothing. And drives. It was suggested that I get a double 5.25"/3.5" drive. Err, no. The 5.25" is going to be 80 cylinder (to handle 1.2M disks) which means writing to 40 cylinder disks is a bad idea. And I am not sure the software exists to do what I want on such a machine. I don't want to have to write it myself! -tony --===============5695729668841754728==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon May 22 13:14:19 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 13:14:09 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1768847702190672931==" --===============1768847702190672931== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 10:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. I forgot whom I was dealing with. > > I am not sure I > would want to trust something from an unknown seller on the web. That is unreasonable, IMHO, but it is on-brand. > And > of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to > be able to test it before I buy it This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think. > Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. Neither did I when I lived in the UK. I picked up PCs from various points in South London by simply bungeeing them onto the luggage rack of my bicycle. Monitors, I carried on public transport a few times. Easy now that flatscreens are the rule. The last one I bought, in September, I carried across Prague for over 1h on bus, metro and tram, in a backpack, while also pushing my then 3YO daughter in a pram... and that is a big 27" screen, too. > I'll go > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually > want. An PC is not in that category. I am sorry but that is simply rude, and in context, it is adding an insult to the prior insult. If you want the ability, get off your backside. If you don't, then suffer in silence. Don't call people stupid and then add "that is stupid because I can't be bothered." > Not to mention the fact that I > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go. Why would you have to? Who said you did? Nobody. You made this up, then called me stupid for words you put in my mouth. > Having it sent to me is inconvenient Nonsense. The bulk of commerce these days is mail order because it is *more* convenient. > Then there's the problem of keeping it going. Who said you had to? Nobody. But you said it was not of interest. If it fails, replace it. Problem solved. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1768847702190672931==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon May 22 15:53:59 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 08:53:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8269105529749685102==" --===============8269105529749685102== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I learned a long time ago that it's a waste of time to trying to help someone who, instead of focusing on solutions, just comes up with endless reasons why your suggestions won't work. Sellam On Mon, May 22, 2023, 6:14 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 10:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. > > I forgot whom I was dealing with. > > > > I am not sure I > > would want to trust something from an unknown seller on the web. > > That is unreasonable, IMHO, but it is on-brand. > > > And > > of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I > > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and > > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to > > be able to test it before I buy it > > This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think. > > > Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. > > Neither did I when I lived in the UK. > > I picked up PCs from various points in South London by simply > bungeeing them onto the luggage rack of my bicycle. > > Monitors, I carried on public transport a few times. Easy now that > flatscreens are the rule. The last one I bought, in September, I > carried across Prague for over 1h on bus, metro and tram, in a > backpack, while also pushing my then 3YO daughter in a pram... and > that is a big 27" screen, too. > > > I'll go > > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually > > want. An PC is not in that category. > > I am sorry but that is simply rude, and in context, it is adding an > insult to the prior insult. If you want the ability, get off your > backside. If you don't, then suffer in silence. Don't call people > stupid and then add "that is stupid because I can't be bothered." > > > > Not to mention the fact that I > > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go. > > Why would you have to? Who said you did? Nobody. You made this up, > then called me stupid for words you put in my mouth. > > > Having it sent to me is inconvenient > > Nonsense. The bulk of commerce these days is mail order because it is > *more* convenient. > > > Then there's the problem of keeping it going. > > Who said you had to? Nobody. > > But you said it was not of interest. If it fails, replace it. Problem > solved. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > --===============8269105529749685102==-- From js@cimmeri.com Mon May 22 16:30:39 2023 From: js@cimmeri.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 12:25:13 -0400 Message-ID: <71c6a4b1-cec9-15bb-4087-c0995dbcab29@cimmeri.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7964852508116104121==" --===============7964852508116104121== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>> I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop >>> with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with: >>> "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use. >> Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from >> the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and >> dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like >> Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases. > I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :) > The first problem is finding such a machine in known-working > condition. Second-hand computer shops are few and far between and > generally don't trade in machines that old. Similarly pawnbrokers > ('Cash Converters' and the like) don't deal in them. Don't they have eBay where you live? > ... > And of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to > be able to test it before I buy it. I wouldn't worry about the built in disk controller.  You can add the functionality you need with an Adaptec SCSI controller w/ floppy. > Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. I'll go > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually > want. An PC is not in that category. Not to mention the fact that I > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go. > Having it sent to me is inconvenient and I am not sure the machine > would survive. Not to mention it would cost more than the machine is > worth. Why do you need a monitor and keyboard?    And since you don't drive, again, have you heard of eBay? > Then there's the problem of keeping it going. Why do I not have this problem?    Keeping *anything* going, even our own bodies, is always a "problem." > I realise that spare ICs always were unobtainium. But replacement > modules -- disk drives, motherboards, etc are no longer made or easily > available. I have no PCI cards in my collection at all. No ATX power > supplies. I might be able to find a VGA monitor but that's pushing it. Then why even get up in the morning, if you're resigned to doom before even trying?   All of these things can be obtained.. EASILY.  A VGA monitor is NOT a challenge. > And drives. It was suggested that I get a double 5.25"/3.5" drive. > Err, no. The 5.25" is going to be 80 cylinder (to handle 1.2M disks) > which means writing to 40 cylinder disks is a bad idea. I use a 5.25" HD drive for 80 cylinder use, and simply plug in a 360k drive when needed. > And I am not sure the software exists to do what I want on such a > machine. I don't want to have to write it myself! Such software probably does exist.  If someone has had the same need, then it's been done. --===============7964852508116104121==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon May 22 17:10:24 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 13:10:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <71c6a4b1-cec9-15bb-4087-c0995dbcab29@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3233820811012834245==" --===============3233820811012834245== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thia is a good place to start http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/index.cfm. from here there are two complete how-to docs, software and images. Bill On Mon, May 22, 2023, 12:30 PM js--- via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > >>> I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 > desktop > >>> with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with: > >>> "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use. > >> Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from > >> the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and > >> dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like > >> Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases. > > I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. > > > It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :) > > > > The first problem is finding such a machine in known-working > > condition. Second-hand computer shops are few and far between and > > generally don't trade in machines that old. Similarly pawnbrokers > > ('Cash Converters' and the like) don't deal in them. > > > Don't they have eBay where you live? > > > > ... > > And of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I > > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and > > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to > > be able to test it before I buy it. > > I wouldn't worry about the built in disk controller. You can add the > functionality you need with an Adaptec SCSI controller w/ floppy. > > > > Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. I'll go > > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually > > want. An PC is not in that category. Not to mention the fact that I > > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go. > > Having it sent to me is inconvenient and I am not sure the machine > > would survive. Not to mention it would cost more than the machine is > > worth. > > > Why do you need a monitor and keyboard? And since you don't drive, > again, have you heard of eBay? > > > > > Then there's the problem of keeping it going. > > > Why do I not have this problem? Keeping *anything* going, even our > own bodies, is always a "problem." > > > > I realise that spare ICs always were unobtainium. But replacement > > modules -- disk drives, motherboards, etc are no longer made or easily > > available. I have no PCI cards in my collection at all. No ATX power > > supplies. I might be able to find a VGA monitor but that's pushing it. > > > Then why even get up in the morning, if you're resigned to doom before > even trying? All of these things can be obtained.. EASILY. A VGA > monitor is NOT a challenge. > > > And drives. It was suggested that I get a double 5.25"/3.5" drive. > > Err, no. The 5.25" is going to be 80 cylinder (to handle 1.2M disks) > > which means writing to 40 cylinder disks is a bad idea. > > > I use a 5.25" HD drive for 80 cylinder use, and simply plug in a 360k > drive when needed. > > > > And I am not sure the software exists to do what I want on such a > > machine. I don't want to have to write it myself! > > Such software probably does exist. If someone has had the same need, > then it's been done. > > > > > --===============3233820811012834245==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon May 22 18:09:17 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 13:09:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <71c6a4b1-cec9-15bb-4087-c0995dbcab29@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2262164721048204690==" --===============2262164721048204690== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/22/2023 11:25 AM, js--- via cctalk wrote: Hehe, I chuckled.  I have such a machine (triple boot, DOS, Windows, Linux) PII sitting here that used to be my primary machine (hand built from cheap parts at the old Omaha, NE monthly computer show), no eBay needed.  Machine does not get a lot of use anymore, but it fires right up when needed. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============2262164721048204690==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon May 22 20:49:31 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 13:49:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0488567260994880219==" --===============0488567260994880219== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 10:40, Tony Duell wrote: >> I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. >> And >> of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I >> certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and >> writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to >> be able to test it before I buy it On Mon, 22 May 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think. Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density (FM) reading and writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't. Although the 765 would have been capable of it, the 5150 FDC disabled that capability. It is available on only SOME implementations. Dave Dunfield wrote a small test program tocheck for FM/SD compatability. --===============0488567260994880219==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon May 22 21:30:58 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 14:25:01 -0700 Message-ID: <20887472-6fbf-a9f7-f0b0-e8ec233957f2@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7373794594473000830==" --===============7373794594473000830== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/22/23 13:49, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density (FM) reading and > writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't. > > Although the 765 would have been capable of it, the 5150 FDC disabled > that capability.  It is available on only SOME implementations. Another can/can't is formatting and writing disks with 128 byte MFM sectoring. The National Semi DP8473 is one that can do both (FM and 128 byte MFM). Curiously, it's late P3 and P4 motherboard systems that have the best track record for this. However, Intel was not a leader in this department. The original 82077 FDC could handle FM just fine, but the later 82077AA-1 could not. When I brought this issue up to Intel applications engineering, the response was "So--who needs FM in this day and age?" Fortunately, the pin-compatible NSC PC8477 retained the FM capability. I recall when Micro Solutions recalled a run of their CompatiCard IV controllers with the 82077AA-1 controllers and replaced the chips wit the National ones. SMSC SuperIO chips have a pretty good record in this matter. --Chuck --===============7373794594473000830==-- From tih@hamartun.priv.no Mon May 22 22:21:06 2023 From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 00:13:45 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8571269233748987379==" --===============8571269233748987379== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred Cisin via cctalk writes: > Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density (FM) reading and > writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't. For what it's worth, the Adaptec AHA-1542B SCSI controller contains a fully capable floppy interface as per the original IBM specification. -tih -- Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay --===============8571269233748987379==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon May 22 22:53:33 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 15:53:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6522843655894504470==" --===============6522843655894504470== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/22/23 15:13, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via cctalk wrote: > Fred Cisin via cctalk writes: >=20 >> Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density (FM) reading and >> writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't. >=20 > For what it's worth, the Adaptec AHA-1542B SCSI controller contains a > fully capable floppy interface as per the original IBM specification. That's a real NSC DP8473 or a clone of it. You can often find the same chip on Future Domain cwell-ontrollers as well as DTC ones as well some Ultrastor ones What's not known, is that with a simple jumper, a 2-drive controller can be changed to a 3 drive one (on the same cable). Both Ultrastor and DTC documented the 3-drive cable, but Adaptec and Future Domain never did. FWOW the 8473 in it's PLCC incarnation is fully capable of directly driving four floppies. Bitsavers even has a datasheet on the 4-drive capability in a PC-AT: http://www.bitsavers.org/components/national/_dataSheets/DP8473/AN-631_Design= _Guide_for_DP8473_in_a_PC-AT_Dec89.pdf Another tidbit is the Micro Solutions Backpack floppy with parallel port interface uses the 8473 and even has a configuration EEPROM to track 4 drives. The interface supports low-level hardware control. Some years ago, I even published the source to a driver for the thing on VCFed. I'm sure that it's been lost in the mists of time, however; VCF has lost a lot of content over the years. --Chuck --===============6522843655894504470==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Tue May 23 08:55:07 2023 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 10:45:56 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <738028da-da0d-bc1d-8e2b-584d7b40390d@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2391856314973098707==" --===============2391856314973098707== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 09:01:58AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/19/23 04:36, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 18 May 2023 at 20:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB) > > > > Hang on a minute. > > > > [1] Win98 on a 386? Really? It might work but it will be horribly > > horribly slow. > > > > Win95 was just barely usable on a 386; I benchmarked it at release. > > I'm not so sure about a 386 and Win98. Seems to me I tried to install > 98SE on a 20MHz 386 years ago and it didn't work. Said 386 has a > whopping 13MB of RAM, all located on a plug in card. The AT-sized > motherboard is nothing but SSI/MSI TTL with no custom chipsets, so no > room for RAM. [...] According to this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_98#System_requirements the lowliest machine supported is 486 with 16MB (Windows 98) or 24MB (Windows 98SE). However, "Users can bypass processor requirement checks with the undocumented /NM setup switch. This allows installation on computers with processors as old as the Intel 80386." But I have no way to verify this. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============2391856314973098707==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue May 23 09:41:36 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 10:41:11 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <71c6a4b1-cec9-15bb-4087-c0995dbcab29@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6437094081319911154==" --===============6437094081319911154== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 5:25=E2=80=AFPM js(a)cimmeri.com w= rote: > > On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > >>> I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desk= top > >>> with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with: > >>> "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use. > >> Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from > >> the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and > >> dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like > >> Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases. > > I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. > > > It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :) I do seriously wonder why nobody has been suggesting the flux-transition type of device. If it can be got to work then it would seem the ideal solution in that it can handle anything the disk drive [1] can handle, including non FM/MFM formats. Is it that such devices don't work, or what? The Greaseweazle has schematics, firmware source and application source all available (OK I don't know python but would be happy to spend time learning that if need be) and thus would seem to be easier to keep going than some unknown PC. [1] Actually, do any such devices handle hard-sector disks? There seems to be no technical reason why not, but I've never seen it listed as a capability. But as just about all my machines use soft-sectored disks this is not really an issue. [...] > I wouldn't worry about the built in disk controller. You can add the > functionality you need with an Adaptec SCSI controller w/ floppy. Which AFAIK is no longer made and not necessarily available. > > Why do you need a monitor and keyboard? And since you don't drive, > again, have you heard of eBay? Well,, I need a monitor so I can see I've typed the command correctly, use a GUI (if that's what the OS uses) and see error messages. I need a keyboard to type the commands, and indeed to satisfy the POST of most such machines. I do not have such things around. Very few of my computers are PCs. -tony --===============6437094081319911154==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue May 23 09:52:35 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 10:52:08 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3123543558012160448==" --===============3123543558012160448== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 2:14 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > > And > > of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I > > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and > > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to > > be able to test it before I buy it > > This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think. Not in my experience (back in the day). I had no end of problems with friends' PCs handling single-density disks. > > > I'll go > > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually > > want. An PC is not in that category. > > I am sorry but that is simply rude, and in context, it is adding an > insult to the prior insult. If you want the ability, get off your > backside. If you don't, then suffer in silence. Don't call people > stupid and then add "that is stupid because I can't be bothered." > I did not call you stupid. I called the suggestion stupid. Which I still consider it to be. I can be bothered. I could be bothered to design the darn thing from scratch, actually, which would probably take less time. > > > Not to mention the fact that I > > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go. > > Why would you have to? Who said you did? Nobody. You made this up, > then called me stupid for words you put in my mouth. > My experience is that most sellers, if selling a complete system, want the whole lot gone in one go. They do not want multiple visits to pick it up a bit at a time. And if the machine is not near me then fares quickly mount up if you have to make several trips. One other point I forgot is the size of such a machine. I don't have space for one. My house is not large and it's filled with things that interest me -- like classic computers, tools, electronic test gear, books, etc. > > Having it sent to me is inconvenient > > Nonsense. The bulk of commerce these days is mail order because it is > *more* convenient. Obviously you know my life better than I do. Having parcels delivered is inconvenient. I do have things to do that require me to be out of the house at certain times. I can't be in at a particular time necessarily. And many of the jobs I do can't be stopped because the doorbell rings. You try assembling a mechanism with tiny parts, many spring-loaded, and having to stop mid-way. It doesn't work. Don't tell me that the delivery company will give the time/date the parcel will be delivered. Such information is totally inaccurate in my experience. -tony --===============3123543558012160448==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Tue May 23 13:03:39 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 14:36:19 -0400 Message-ID: <6b6c2a2c-a096-969e-c92c-319331c236b4@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1621549705886176220==" --===============1621549705886176220== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/22/2023 11:53 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I learned a long time ago that it's a waste of time to trying to help > someone who, instead of focusing on solutions, just comes up with endless > reasons why your suggestions won't work. We used to call this "Asks for advice, argues with respondents. Meanwhile does anyone know if it's possible to install older versions of MicroRSTS using a single RX33 floppy? I'm testing these images and while the xxdp+ one works fine the MicroRSTS disk 1 starts to load, gets to track 15 (I love GoTeks) then the system stops. However the system does throw a "Starting system" message so it is reading the bootstrap. I'll hook up another FlashFloppy, but was wondering if it's just looking for a second disk on the "second" RX50 to finish boot. C --===============1621549705886176220==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue May 23 13:21:20 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 09:21:11 -0400 Message-ID: <2AC003D1-BF54-4542-BCAB-0A91F9BF6D3B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0702300108854182431==" --===============0702300108854182431== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 23, 2023, at 5:41 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 5:25=E2=80=AFPM js(a)cimmeri.com = wrote: >>=20 >> On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>>>> I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desk= top >>>>> with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with: >>>>> "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use. >>>> Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from >>>> the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and >>>> dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like >>>> Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases. >>> I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. >>=20 >>=20 >> It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :) >=20 > I do seriously wonder why nobody has been suggesting the > flux-transition type of device. If it can be got to work then it would > seem the ideal solution in that it can handle anything the disk drive > [1] can handle, including non FM/MFM formats.=20 Sure it is likely to work. But the point of the other suggestions, such as t= he one I wrote saying just to use a stock floppy drive, is that it offers ano= ther option that is easy. It would also be a particularly convenient choice = for anyone who already has such a system sitting in the closet, or can get hi= s hands on one easily. While those flux widgets have at times tempted me, I haven't had a requiremen= t for one yet, and unless at some point in the future I do, chances are I'll = just stick with my existing off the shelf PC. paul --===============0702300108854182431==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 23 14:40:57 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 07:40:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6377827117823459385==" --===============6377827117823459385== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/23/23 02:41, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > [1] Actually, do any such devices handle hard-sector disks? There > seems to be no technical reason why not, but I've never seen it listed > as a capability. But as just about all my machines use soft-sectored > disks this is not really an issue. Disclaimer: My business is strictly retrieving data from media--I care not one whit for creating copies. It's not what I do. That being said, flux-transition devices are extremely useful in this respect. One of my first experience with them, years ago, was retrieving source code from Future Data hard-sector disks for Lockheed. Back then, it was a Catweasel MK I that did the work. GCR encoded hard-sector 8" floppies. You can read disks that no LSI controller can handle. For example, closed-caption 8" HS floppies created on a Zilog ZDS with 132 byte sectors for Fox Home Video. Currently working with a bunch of Wang 2200 16-sector 8" floppies from the executive offices of Wang using my own MCU powered device. So can one read hard-sector floppies with all manner of weird and wonderful encodings with flux-transition devices, I'd say that the answer was "yes". The more difficult part is figuring out what to make of the data. --Chuck --===============6377827117823459385==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Tue May 23 16:58:16 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 09:57:49 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2600256993253645958==" --===============2600256993253645958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 23 May 2023, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 5:25=E2=80=AFPM js(a)cimmeri.com = wrote: >> >> On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>>>> I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desk= top >>>>> with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with: >>>>> "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use. >>>> Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from >>>> the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and >>>> dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like >>>> Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases. >>> I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. >> >> >> It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :) > > [1] Actually, do any such devices handle hard-sector disks? There > seems to be no technical reason why not, but I've never seen it listed > as a capability. But as just about all my machines use soft-sectored > disks this is not really an issue. > The AppleSauce can both image and write hard-sectored images. These Northstar images were created with it:=20 http://annex.retroarchive.org/disks/northstar/ It's the best imaging tool out there. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============2600256993253645958==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 23 19:51:38 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 12:51:26 -0700 Message-ID: <4734f566-94a2-18ef-3397-84ec6e2d735a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6761576368563846500==" --===============6761576368563846500== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/23/23 09:57, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > The AppleSauce can both image and write hard-sectored images. > These Northstar images were created with it: > http://annex.retroarchive.org/disks/northstar/ > > It's the best imaging tool out there. On their website, the product is sold out. I requires a Mac running OSX. And the guts, as you might imagine are pretty normal for this sort of thing--a Teensy 3.5 ARM board running at 120MHz. The rest is software. --Chuck --===============6761576368563846500==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Tue May 23 21:10:17 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 14:10:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4734f566-94a2-18ef-3397-84ec6e2d735a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6176288566417308719==" --===============6176288566417308719== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 23 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/23/23 09:57, geneb via cctalk wrote: > >> >> The AppleSauce can both image and write hard-sectored images. >> These Northstar images were created with it: >> http://annex.retroarchive.org/disks/northstar/ >> >> It's the best imaging tool out there. > > On their website, the product is sold out. I requires a Mac running > OSX. And the guts, as you might imagine are pretty normal for this sort > of thing--a Teensy 3.5 ARM board running at 120MHz. > Yep - Teensy 3.5 boards are basically unobtainium at this point - the designer is working towards an update that will use the Teensy 4.x > The rest is software. > You're correct. There's none better out there either. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6176288566417308719==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 23 21:27:55 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 14:27:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4251928580234963748==" --===============4251928580234963748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony, You are extraordinarily tedious. Sellam On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 2:52=E2=80=AFAM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 2:14=E2=80=AFPM Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > And > > > of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I > > > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and > > > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to > > > be able to test it before I buy it > > > > This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think. > > Not in my experience (back in the day). I had no end of problems with > friends' PCs handling single-density disks. > > > > > > > I'll go > > > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually > > > want. An PC is not in that category. > > > > I am sorry but that is simply rude, and in context, it is adding an > > insult to the prior insult. If you want the ability, get off your > > backside. If you don't, then suffer in silence. Don't call people > > stupid and then add "that is stupid because I can't be bothered." > > > > I did not call you stupid. I called the suggestion stupid. Which I > still consider it to be. > > I can be bothered. I could be bothered to design the darn thing from > scratch, actually, which would probably take less time. > > > > > > > Not to mention the fact that I > > > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go. > > > > Why would you have to? Who said you did? Nobody. You made this up, > > then called me stupid for words you put in my mouth. > > > > My experience is that most sellers, if selling a complete system, want > the whole lot gone in one go. They do not want multiple visits to pick > it up a bit at a time. > > And if the machine is not near me then fares quickly mount up if you > have to make several trips. > > One other point I forgot is the size of such a machine. I don't have > space for one. My house is not large and it's filled with things that > interest me -- like classic computers, tools, electronic test gear, > books, etc. > > > > > Having it sent to me is inconvenient > > > > Nonsense. The bulk of commerce these days is mail order because it is > > *more* convenient. > > Obviously you know my life better than I do. > > Having parcels delivered is inconvenient. I do have things to do that > require me to be out of the house at certain times. I can't be in at a > particular time necessarily. And many of the jobs I do can't be > stopped because the doorbell rings. You try assembling a mechanism > with tiny parts, many spring-loaded, and having to stop mid-way. It > doesn't work. > > Don't tell me that the delivery company will give the time/date the > parcel will be delivered. Such information is totally inaccurate in my > experience. > > -tony > --===============4251928580234963748==-- From js@cimmeri.com Tue May 23 22:34:27 2023 From: js@cimmeri.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 18:29:03 -0400 Message-ID: <6b13b805-1422-45ef-4566-b957d986d9d0@cimmeri.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6378215123245707347==" --===============6378215123245707347== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/23/2023 5:27 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Tony, > > You are extraordinarily tedious. > > Sellam He's also very funny, if you like dry British humor ) --===============6378215123245707347==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 23 22:38:24 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 15:38:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8376209059309673745==" --===============8376209059309673745== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/23/23 14:10, geneb wrote: > Yep - Teensy 3.5 boards are basically unobtainium at this point - the > designer is working towards an update that will use the Teensy 4.x The 4.x doesn't have 5V tolerant GPIO, which means that he'll need level-shifters. I note that STM32H7750vbt6 ARM7 dev boards are about 20 bucks on Aliexpress. 450Mhz, 1MB SRAM, 128KB of program flash and just about any peripheral you can think of--and a few you didn't. 5V tolerant GPIO, BTW. Vendor throws in a MicroSD socket and 8MB of QSPI RAM. USB C connector. Seems to be popular with the videocam crowd. ARM Silicon just gets better and better. I wonder if RISC-V will eventually overtake ARM. --Chuck --===============8376209059309673745==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Tue May 23 22:44:42 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 15:44:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6839955555003619480==" --===============6839955555003619480== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 23 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/23/23 14:10, geneb wrote: > >> Yep - Teensy 3.5 boards are basically unobtainium at this point - the >> designer is working towards an update that will use the Teensy 4.x > > The 4.x doesn't have 5V tolerant GPIO, which means that he'll need > level-shifters. > The chances of him not being aware of that are nonexistent. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6839955555003619480==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed May 24 09:03:27 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 10:03:13 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6b6c2a2c-a096-969e-c92c-319331c236b4@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2789561763571236438==" --===============2789561763571236438== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 2:03 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/22/2023 11:53 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > I learned a long time ago that it's a waste of time to trying to help > > someone who, instead of focusing on solutions, just comes up with endless > > reasons why your suggestions won't work. > > We used to call this "Asks for advice, argues with respondents. I have a different term for it. I call it 'being sensible' I feel it is very foolish to accept a piece of advice -- or any other information -- without questioning it. I have, alas, made that mistake too many times myself already and try to avoid doing so again. -tony --===============2789561763571236438==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed May 24 09:12:42 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 10:12:26 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2AC003D1-BF54-4542-BCAB-0A91F9BF6D3B@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6813067372960035968==" --===============6813067372960035968== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 2:21=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning wrote: > > I do seriously wonder why nobody has been suggesting the > > flux-transition type of device. If it can be got to work then it would > > seem the ideal solution in that it can handle anything the disk drive > > [1] can handle, including non FM/MFM formats. > > Sure it is likely to work. But the point of the other suggestions, such as= the one I wrote saying just to use a stock floppy drive, is that it offers a= nother option that is easy. It would also be a particularly convenient choic= e for anyone who already has such a system sitting in the closet, or can get = his hands on one easily. Given that conditional, this make a lot of sense. But the statement was originally made without the conditonal. In my first message I pointed out that I had 2 classes of computers . Classic computers which have floppy drives of various sizes but not USB ports. And this modern-ish laptop which has USB ports and no floppy drive. I think this sort-of implies I don't have an old-ish PC tucked away somewhere with USB ports and a floppy controller. > > While those flux widgets have at times tempted me, I haven't had a requirem= ent for one yet, and unless at some point in the future I do, chances are I'l= l just stick with my existing off the shelf PC. Sure, if you've got a solution that works for you, use it. In terms of bying something now, you can get a Greaseweazle in the UK for about =C2=A325.00 including postage. I suspect that getting an old PC would cost more than that -- the hardware may be cheaper, but getting it home won't be. And I can see disadvantages to using such a machine. But other that an Apple-based solution which is not applicable to me, I've not seen any messages here on the pros and cons of the various flux transition devices. -tony --===============6813067372960035968==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed May 24 09:26:42 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 10:26:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7900620794444413444==" --===============7900620794444413444== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 5:29 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Last time that I tried to research it, I found that there had once been an > external drive in which the USB and controller werenot integrated with the > drive electronics, so that it could easily get a different drive > connected. It is, of course, not available anywhere. > I also saw a datasheet for a chip that was a USB floppy controller! It > also does not seem to be available. > I have looked in my collection and found 2 external floppy drives with USB interfaces. Both, not surprisingly, are single 3.5" 1.4M units One contains a USB floppy drive. That is, after removing the plastic casing there's a disk drive inside only. The USB cable disappears into that. After removfn the top shielding cover from that, there's a tiny PCB with an ASIC on it. USB goes to that, so do the head connections. So all in one chip, probably not hackable The other drive is more interesting. There's a drive mechanism and a little PCB hung off the back. These are connected by a tapewire type of ribbon cable, I suspect (but have NOT done any tests yet, so this is a guess) that this is the interface used on some later laptop floppy drives -- that is much the same signals as on a Shugart floppy interface. The little PCB has the USB cable soldered to it. And 2 ICs. Alas some spoilsport has removed the numbers from them. One (14 pins) is probably a TTL buffer to drive the disk drive signals. The other (still an SMD dual-in-line package but closer pin pitch than the SOIC of the other chip) is presumably a USB floppy controller. When I have time I'll probe things and see if I can figure it out. -tony --===============7900620794444413444==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Wed May 24 10:02:01 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 05:54:42 -0400 Message-ID: <4a640951-0906-4af0-632c-39d128e42195@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7195658745206975728==" --===============7195658745206975728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-05-24 05:26, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 5:29 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> Last time that I tried to research it, I found that there had once been an >> external drive in which the USB and controller werenot integrated with the > Alas some spoilsport has removed the numbers from them. One (14 pins) > is probably a TTL buffer to drive the disk drive signals. The other > (still an SMD dual-in-line package but closer pin pitch than the SOIC > of the other chip) is presumably a USB floppy controller. When I have > time I'll probe things and see if I can figure it out. Some of the USB<->Floppy drives used the SMSC USB97CFDC like chips. Which basically was an 8051, USB and a 765 FDC in a chip ... --===============7195658745206975728==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed May 24 10:02:17 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ST-251 Data Recovery for Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 11:02:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4a640951-0906-4af0-632c-39d128e42195@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4713588369433126739==" --===============4713588369433126739== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 24, 2023 at 10:54=E2=80=AFAM emanuel stiebler = wrote: > > On 2023-05-24 05:26, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 5:29=E2=80=AFAM Fred Cisin via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> Last time that I tried to research it, I found that there had once been = an > >> external drive in which the USB and controller werenot integrated with t= he > > Alas some spoilsport has removed the numbers from them. One (14 pins) > > is probably a TTL buffer to drive the disk drive signals. The other > > (still an SMD dual-in-line package but closer pin pitch than the SOIC > > of the other chip) is presumably a USB floppy controller. When I have > > time I'll probe things and see if I can figure it out. > > Some of the USB<->Floppy drives used the SMSC USB97CFDC like chips. > Which basically was an 8051, USB and a 765 FDC in a chip ... > Unfortunately the data sheets for that series say that said chips come in a 100 pin PQFP package. This things has a lot few pins and only on 2 sides of the package. So not that. -tony --===============4713588369433126739==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Wed May 24 10:18:14 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Super I/O chips Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 06:18:07 -0400 Message-ID: <5f91038f-f6cb-f037-bd33-c7f7ea2de43b@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7356279561054554904==" --===============7356279561054554904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anybody out here, still in business using them? Which ones are still easily available? (I look for something which has 2 UARTs, FDC and IDE?) Thanks --===============7356279561054554904==-- From raymond.wiker@icloud.com Wed May 24 12:11:27 2023 From: raymond.wiker@icloud.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Super I/O chips Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 14:00:52 +0200 Message-ID: <0EB1B0D1-18B2-414F-81F4-1DB3D7968763@icloud.com> In-Reply-To: <5f91038f-f6cb-f037-bd33-c7f7ea2de43b@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5468248069781658104==" --===============5468248069781658104== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The C256Foenix FMX uses a SuperIO chip: https://wiki.c256foenix.com/index.php= ?title=3DICs > On 24 May 2023, at 12:18, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Anybody out here, still in business using them? > Which ones are still easily available? > (I look for something which has 2 UARTs, FDC and IDE?) > Thanks --===============5468248069781658104==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Wed May 24 12:25:08 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Super I/O chips Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 12:24:24 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0EB1B0D1-18B2-414F-81F4-1DB3D7968763@icloud.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4874693468371329054==" --===============4874693468371329054== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://www.microchip.com/en-us/products/embedded-controllers-and-super-io https://www.microchip.com/en-us/parametric-search.html/674 From a QL 0.5 mm pitch QFP will be as good as it gets, and a lot of the parts= are NRFND, EoL, etc Interesting that these parts continue to exist. Ano option would be an FPGA, e.g. Artix on a 48 pin DIP module, https://www.m= ouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Digilent/410-328-35 Martin -----Original Message----- From: Raymond Wiker via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 24 May 2023 13:01 To: cctalk Off-Topic Posts Cc: raymond.wiker(a)icloud.com Subject: [cctalk] Re: Super I/O chips The C256Foenix FMX uses a SuperIO chip: https://wiki.c256foenix.com/index.php= ?title=3DICs > On 24 May 2023, at 12:18, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Anybody out here, still in business using them? > Which ones are still easily available? > (I look for something which has 2 UARTs, FDC and IDE?) Thanks --===============4874693468371329054==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed May 24 13:37:28 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Super I/O chips Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 09:37:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3489940237463508705==" --===============3489940237463508705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone ever looked at using the P112 to read and write these classic format floppies?  I understand it can do 8" CPM floppies so that would imply the controller has all the needed modes. bill --===============3489940237463508705==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Wed May 24 14:25:21 2023 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Super I/O chips and Getting floppy images to/from real disks Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 15:25:13 +0100 Message-ID: <28134ea5.3e13.1884e264fc7.Webtop.122@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2364471317136411040==" --===============2364471317136411040== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interestingly, i'm looking at procuring a reasonably vintage laptop for a computer festival i'm planning to attend soon. It seems that many laptops of the PIII era use SuperIO chips, but i'm rather confused as to how "low level" they get. Some of you may remember my RCA MS2000. I've had great luck writing bootable images from a PIII machine with a "standard" 1.44mb floppy drive, despite the format being 70-track, SSDD. The machine's floppy controller uses a bona-fide NEC uPD765 though, so no surprises it worked fine... ( Here's a video of me playing around with it for the curious... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdKkaf-77dE ) I'm really asking if anyone has any recommendations for a laptop that is reasonably powerful, fairly modern (has USB), but also has a direct-connection floppy drive that can do device level shenanigans (via Omniflop) to allow me to write floppies in obscure formats. Bonus points if it can use it with a serial terminal emulator, and run the Emma02 RCA 1802 emulator on it as well. I, like Tony, don't drive, so i need something compact and portable for public transport travel. I've been eyeing up a Dell Latitude C series (C600?) But the whole SuperIO-over-parallel thing makes me think there might be proprietary drivers involved, preventing device level access of the floppy drives... Hopefully some of you might be a bit more wise. Cheers, Josh --===============2364471317136411040==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed May 24 16:32:48 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Super I/O chips and Getting floppy images to/from real disks Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 16:32:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <28134ea5.3e13.1884e264fc7.Webtop.122@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1177516990306141685==" --===============1177516990306141685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What op sys and version do you want to run on it? Windows changed the way dri= vers work after Xp so it may be an isshe. That made replacement of older PCs = that controlled equipment like xray, MRI, and industrial stuff impossible as = the manufacturers couldn=E2=80=99t write new drivers =E2=80=94 lost the knowl= edge thru mergers and retirements/buyouts. Sent from my iPhone > On May 24, 2023, at 07:25, Joshua Rice via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFInterestingly, i'm looking at procuring a reasonably vintage lapto= p for a computer festival i'm planning to attend soon. It seems that many lap= tops of the PIII era use SuperIO chips, but i'm rather confused as to how "lo= w level" they get. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Some of you may remember my RCA MS2000. I've had great luck writing bootabl= e images from a PIII machine with a "standard" 1.44mb floppy drive, despite t= he format being 70-track, SSDD. The machine's floppy controller uses a bona-f= ide NEC uPD765 though, so no surprises it worked fine... ( Here's a video of = me playing around with it for the curious... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= =3DqdKkaf-77dE ) >=20 >=20 >=20 > I'm really asking if anyone has any recommendations for a laptop that is re= asonably powerful, fairly modern (has USB), but also has a direct-connection = floppy drive that can do device level shenanigans (via Omniflop) to allow me = to write floppies in obscure formats. Bonus points if it can use it with a se= rial terminal emulator, and run the Emma02 RCA 1802 emulator on it as well. I= , like Tony, don't drive, so i need something compact and portable for public= transport travel. >=20 >=20 >=20 > I've been eyeing up a Dell Latitude C series (C600?) But the whole SuperIO-= over-parallel thing makes me think there might be proprietary drivers involve= d, preventing device level access of the floppy drives... Hopefully some of y= ou might be a bit more wise. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Cheers, Josh --===============1177516990306141685==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Wed May 24 18:29:45 2023 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Super I/O chips and Getting floppy images to/from real disks Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 19:29:39 +0100 Message-ID: <172084d5.159bd.1884f061958.Webtop.110@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21818D350C1AAFB568E8EDBAE4419=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6111589121762193696==" --===============6111589121762193696== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What op sys and version do you want to run on it? Windows changed the way drivers work after Xp so it may be an isshe. That made replacement of older PCs that controlled equipment like xray, MRI, and industrial stuff impossible as the manufacturers couldn’t write new drivers — lost the knowledge thru mergers and retirements/buyouts. As i say, i'm in the market for a laptop. Omniflop, the tool i used to write the RCA MicroDOS floppies, works well with Win2k, and i used a Dell GX1 running Win2K to write the disks. The direct drive-to-controller-to-OS links are what i'm after. No USB, Firewire, or serial/parallel interfaces between the controller and rest of the machine.Ideally, i'm after an early 2000's laptop. I've got a couple mid-2000's Dell laptops with floppy modules, but they interface over USB, which is a no-go for device-level stuff. I figure something from before, or the early days of USB 2.0 is where i need to look, but i've seen some machines that use/repurpose the parallel ports for floppy interfacing. If the SuperIO chip sends direct drive controls across the parallel port, as i've read somewhere, then i see no issue. But if the floppy controller is on the drive side of the parallel port, and the OS requires dedicated drivers to controll it, i imagine i won't have the drive-level control i require. --===============6111589121762193696==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Thu May 25 00:54:18 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 20:53:51 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2AC003D1-BF54-4542-BCAB-0A91F9BF6D3B@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4068137043161525127==" --===============4068137043161525127== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I realize he's a bit eccentric, (even more so than many of us ;-) ), but I think we're being a little hard on Tony, especially considering the many contributions he's made to our hobby over the years with reverse-engineered schematics and other obscure documentation. If there weren't so much water between us I'd happily drop off a small form-factor vintage PC that'd probably serve to extract/archive/whatever numerous diskette formats with the various format conversion programs of the day. But it sounds like he'll explore one of the flux-transition gizmos; good luck, Tony, and I hope you enjoy the experience! m On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 9:21=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On May 23, 2023, at 5:41 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 5:25=E2=80=AFPM js(a)cimmeri.com wrote: > >> > >> On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > >>>>> I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 > desktop > >>>>> with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with: > >>>>> "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to > use. > >>>> Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from > >>>> the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and > >>>> dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like > >>>> Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases. > >>> I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. > >> > >> > >> It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :) > > > > I do seriously wonder why nobody has been suggesting the > > flux-transition type of device. If it can be got to work then it would > > seem the ideal solution in that it can handle anything the disk drive > > [1] can handle, including non FM/MFM formats. > > Sure it is likely to work. But the point of the other suggestions, such > as the one I wrote saying just to use a stock floppy drive, is that it > offers another option that is easy. It would also be a particularly > convenient choice for anyone who already has such a system sitting in the > closet, or can get his hands on one easily. > > While those flux widgets have at times tempted me, I haven't had a > requirement for one yet, and unless at some point in the future I do, > chances are I'll just stick with my existing off the shelf PC. > > paul > > > --===============4068137043161525127==-- From harten@injectstar.de Thu May 25 06:59:56 2023 From: Harten To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 08:37:52 +0200 Message-ID: <054bf6a95a.harten@injectstar.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3942069933340149163==" --===============3942069933340149163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In message Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > I realize he's a bit eccentric, (even more so than many of us ;-) ), but I > think we're being a little hard on Tony, especially considering the many > contributions he's made to our hobby over the years with reverse-engineered > schematics and other obscure documentation. > > If there weren't so much water between us I'd happily drop off a small > form-factor vintage PC that'd probably serve to extract/archive/whatever > numerous diskette formats with the various format conversion programs of > the day. > > But it sounds like he'll explore one of the flux-transition gizmos; good > luck, Tony, and I hope you enjoy the experience! > > m > I also looked for a unique way to preserve data from old floppies. By now my equipment has grown and grown. Two old PC/ATs with different operating systems and different controlers incl. one catweasel MK4. Beside this stands a separate housing with different floppy drives and own power supply. For softsectored floppies that is enough gear, but meanwhile i came across some hardsectored ones. I bought a kryoflux with little, not to say no success on hardsecored disks. Now i have the Fluxteen here and i support the developer where i can. We managed writing hardsectored floppy for the Smaky 6, a swiss made computer. Things are going on if we all support him. At the moment he is implementing Apple II formats. I think this system a worth a closer look. Rolf -- --===============3942069933340149163==-- From harten@injectstar.de Thu May 25 07:00:02 2023 From: Harten To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Rexon 30 aka CMC 7030 information needed Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 08:51:59 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4240566645052190204==" --===============4240566645052190204== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently i digged out a system called Rexon 30, which was sold in germany/europe as a CMC 7030. The OS called RECAP BB was stored on a combined hard/removeable disk drive. There is no floppy or tapedrive at all. BB stands for a version of Business-Basic. The removeable pack got lost but there is a little hope that the OS is still on the fixed disc. There will be a lot of work for me before i can try to power up this system again. Maybe it never will. If anyone has information and/or software stored for this system, i would be glad if he/she can part it with me. Rolf -- --===============4240566645052190204==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Thu May 25 11:52:57 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 12:52:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6765509404977002275==" --===============6765509404977002275== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 1:54 AM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > I realize he's a bit eccentric, (even more so than many of us ;-) ), but I I am not 'a bit eccentric'. There is absolutely nothing mild about my eccentricities! > But it sounds like he'll explore one of the flux-transition gizmos; good > luck, Tony, and I hope you enjoy the experience! I've got a Greaseweazle V4 now. I haven't got the software working yet and I am treading carefully as an early attempt managed to mangle the drivers for my USB-RS232 cable which I depend on for a lot of work but I suspect I will get it working in the end and it will do what I need. At least it's open-source so I can read the software source code (maybe I'll have to learn Python). And I have schematics. What is odd is how many things were _not_ suggested. For example : A RPi can read files off a USB stick. Hang a floppy controller chip, possibly with buffer RAM, off the user port connector of one of those. Come up with a parallel interface between an RPi user port and ISAbus. Use that to transfer the disk images to a classic PC and go from there. It is not unheard-of for classic PCs -- even ISAbus ones -- to have 10Mbps ethernet. Most, if not all, 100Mbps ethernet ports will fall back to that. So use that to transfer the disk image. A disk image is almost certainly less than a megabyte for a classic machine, so it won't take long. USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot simpler. So use a card reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an interface for that to ISA bus. CF cards are essentially the same interface as PATA (IDE) disk drives. Go from there. Just about any of those would have been easier and more likely to use bits from my junk box/computer collection than trying to get an old, but not too old, PC -tony --===============6765509404977002275==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 25 14:55:56 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 07:55:45 -0700 Message-ID: <508f734b-08ea-3a44-dfc1-3a2561db966f@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7666964703616742353==" --===============7666964703616742353== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/25/23 04:52, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot simpler. So use a card > reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an > interface for that to ISA bus. That's my approach with my own setups. 32GB SD cards are very inexpensive and quite fast. So, rather than depend on a USB interface to transfer data real-time to a PC, I use the SD card as intermediate storage, later transferring the data off using either a card reader or YModem-1K via serial port or USB. The side benefit is that the SD card is large enough that I'll have a hard time filling it with things like floppy images over the next few years--so I've got an automatic backup. USB (or serial) is used mostly for commands and status (TTY emulator) and can be run from a cheap tablet. The MCU I use does have ethernet support, but I've found that to be unnecessary--the data volume isn't that great. For the programming language, I stick with C, not C++, not Python and plain old makefiles--that's what the support libraries are written in. I don't use an IDE, lest I become reliant on one--a text editor will do. I document the heck out of code. Over the 50 or so years that I've been cranking out gibberish, it's nice to go back to code that I wrote 30 or 40 years ago and still be able to read it. I'm all too aware of the changing trends in the industry--and how quickly they can change. I remember when there was a push in embedded coding not long ago to use Ada--where is that today? It's not that I resist technological change--I can and have written C++ and Python (what version?). On my desk sits a MicroPy board. I look forward to advances in technology, but I'm also aware of how "bleeding edge" trends can wither and get lost almost overnight. How many of you program in Zig? I imagine that in about 5 years, the main conversation will be about using an AI to write code. Of course, there will be a new language to instruct the AI... --Chuck --===============7666964703616742353==-- From jesse.cypresstech@gmail.com Thu May 25 15:49:58 2023 From: Jesse Dougherty To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] HP 1000 A400, A600, A700, A900, A990 Servers, parts, & accessories Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 17:41:37 +0000 Message-ID: <81d2a77b-a46f-be82-8030-6710bff873af@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3723046194229695891==" --===============3723046194229695891== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, we are getting overstocked on the 1000 series stuff and wanted to see if anyone needed anything. We have most everything you could have in the 1000 A-series hardware. If anyone needs any loaded up A990 boxes we have a bunch of them configured below for $1,400.00 A990 Server 14-slot Micro 1000 Server 1 x 12990x A990 CPU 1 x 12221B 8MB Memory 1 x C2247A 1GB SE SCSI Internal disk drive 1 x C150xx DDS DAT Internal Tape Drive 1 x 12016A SCSI Controller board 1 x 12009A HP-IB Interface board 1 x 12005A Serial Interface board 1 x 12006A Parallel interface board 1 x 12040A Asynchronous Multiplexer Interface (MUX) board 1 x 02430x Voltage Jumper Board 1 x 12230A Front-plane memory connector (CPU to memory connector) Feel free to email if you need any HP 1000 hardware. Thanks Jesse Dougherty Cypress Technology Inc jesse(a)cypress-tech.com --===============3723046194229695891==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu May 25 16:13:29 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 11:13:14 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <508f734b-08ea-3a44-dfc1-3a2561db966f@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6008192641741765894==" --===============6008192641741765894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck, I agree with you that well written and commented C is the way to go. The advantage to an IDE comes with debugging and easy access symbols and variables. I worked for Software Development Systems working on their Freeform (text based) and Single Step (windows based) debuggers.  Which gave me an up close experience with both types of interfaces. Over the years I have used printf and blinking LEDs for debugging but the ability to put breakpoints and watchpoints in code is immeasurable. I  have used GCC/GDB and command line debuggers and yes typing "bp 0x1234 -r 6 -h" works  quite well, however, double clicking on a line also works quite well and can be a little faster/easier to use.  Hover over a variable to get it's value is also very convenient. This is similar to the model editor (Vi) vs non-modal editor (emacs, brief) debate.  It comes down to personal preference. I have been programing since 1972 and have worked on all types of systems, compilers, assemblers, editors, IDE's, emulators, etc. And, over the years, I have found what works best for me  (for example, I have been using the brief editor keyboard layout for over 30 years) and that works best for me.  However, I have gone from simple assemblers without any debugging at all to full IDE's and TBH, for me, I find the IDE easier to use than command line debugging tools. The auto make generation that comes with IDE's is quite nice also. I will admit to using gcc/gdb for simple C code development without leaving the slickedit environment.    Mike On 5/25/2023 9:55 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/25/23 04:52, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > >> USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot simpler. So use a card >> reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an >> interface for that to ISA bus. > That's my approach with my own setups. 32GB SD cards are very > inexpensive and quite fast. So, rather than depend on a USB interface > to transfer data real-time to a PC, I use the SD card as intermediate > storage, later transferring the data off using either a card reader or > YModem-1K via serial port or USB. The side benefit is that the SD card > is large enough that I'll have a hard time filling it with things like > floppy images over the next few years--so I've got an automatic backup. > USB (or serial) is used mostly for commands and status (TTY emulator) > and can be run from a cheap tablet. The MCU I use does have ethernet > support, but I've found that to be unnecessary--the data volume isn't > that great. > > For the programming language, I stick with C, not C++, not Python and > plain old makefiles--that's what the support libraries are written in. > I don't use an IDE, lest I become reliant on one--a text editor will do. > I document the heck out of code. Over the 50 or so years that I've been > cranking out gibberish, it's nice to go back to code that I wrote 30 or > 40 years ago and still be able to read it. > > I'm all too aware of the changing trends in the industry--and how > quickly they can change. I remember when there was a push in embedded > coding not long ago to use Ada--where is that today? > > It's not that I resist technological change--I can and have written C++ > and Python (what version?). On my desk sits a MicroPy board. I look > forward to advances in technology, but I'm also aware of how "bleeding > edge" trends can wither and get lost almost overnight. How many of you > program in Zig? > > I imagine that in about 5 years, the main conversation will be about > using an AI to write code. Of course, there will be a new language to > instruct the AI... > > --Chuck > --===============6008192641741765894==-- From ggs@shiresoft.com Thu May 25 16:43:07 2023 From: Guy Sotomayor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 08:58:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <508f734b-08ea-3a44-dfc1-3a2561db966f@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0599518538741260477==" --===============0599518538741260477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/25/23 07:55, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/25/23 04:52, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > For the programming language, I stick with C, not C++, not Python and > plain old makefiles--that's what the support libraries are written in. > I don't use an IDE, lest I become reliant on one--a text editor will do. > I document the heck out of code. Over the 50 or so years that I've been > cranking out gibberish, it's nice to go back to code that I wrote 30 or > 40 years ago and still be able to read it. That's basically what I do too.  It's too easy to get stuck with an unsupported environment.  A text editor and makefiles mean that I can (generally) port my code over to any new environment fairly easily. > > I'm all too aware of the changing trends in the industry--and how > quickly they can change. I remember when there was a push in embedded > coding not long ago to use Ada--where is that today? ADA and SPARK (a stripped down version of ADA) are used heavily in embedded that has to be "safety certified".  SPARK also allows the code to be "proven" (as in you can write formal proofs to ensure that the code does what you say it does).  Ask me how I know.  ;-) -- TTFN - Guy --===============0599518538741260477==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 25 17:00:16 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 10:00:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4750577691920109477==" --===============4750577691920109477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/25/23 08:58, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > ADA and SPARK (a stripped down version of ADA) are used heavily in > embedded that has to be "safety certified".  SPARK also allows the code > to be "proven" (as in you can write formal proofs to ensure that the > code does what you say it does).  Ask me how I know.  ;-) I was aware of Ada's requirements in the defense- and aerospace-related industry. Is that where your experience lies? Is SPARK the "magic bullet" that's been searched for decades to write provably correct code? Now, let's hear from the Nim, Zig...etc. enthusiasts. There's a YT video that claims that Zig code execution is faster than assembly. Exactly how does that work? --Chuck --===============4750577691920109477==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 25 18:20:26 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 12:13:29 -0600 Message-ID: <05871569-cee0-e97e-2286-f49a0cb3486e@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8731604933816231867==" --===============8731604933816231867== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-05-25 5:52 a.m., Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 1:54 AM Mike Stein via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I realize he's a bit eccentric, (even more so than many of us ;-) ), but I > > I am not 'a bit eccentric'. There is absolutely nothing mild about my > eccentricities! > > >> But it sounds like he'll explore one of the flux-transition gizmos; good >> luck, Tony, and I hope you enjoy the experience! > > I've got a Greaseweazle V4 now. I haven't got the software working yet > and I am treading carefully as an early attempt managed to mangle the > drivers for my USB-RS232 cable which I depend on for a lot of work but > I suspect I will get it working in the end and it will do what I need. > > At least it's open-source so I can read the software source code > (maybe I'll have to learn Python). And I have schematics. > > What is odd is how many things were _not_ suggested. For example : > > A RPi can read files off a USB stick. Hang a floppy controller chip, > possibly with buffer RAM, off the user port connector of one of those. > > Come up with a parallel interface between an RPi user port and > ISAbus. Use that to transfer the disk images to a classic PC and go > from there. > > It is not unheard-of for classic PCs -- even ISAbus ones -- to have > 10Mbps ethernet. Most, if not all, 100Mbps ethernet ports will fall > back to that. So use that to transfer the disk image. A disk image is > almost certainly less than a megabyte for a classic machine, so it > won't take long. > > USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot simpler. So use a card > reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an > interface for that to ISA bus. > > CF cards are essentially the same interface as PATA (IDE) disk drives. > Go from there. > > Just about any of those would have been easier and more likely to use > bits from my junk box/computer collection than trying to get an old, > but not too old, PC > > -tony Would it be possible to build a small computer, 8088/8086 just for this? --===============8731604933816231867==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 25 18:47:25 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 14:47:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <05871569-cee0-e97e-2286-f49a0cb3486e@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4664674092169517010==" --===============4664674092169517010== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-05-25 5:52 a.m., Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > ... > It is not unheard-of for classic PCs -- even ISAbus ones -- to have > 10Mbps ethernet. Most, if not all, 100Mbps ethernet ports will fall > back to that.=20 Not only that, but all correctly implemented GigE devices will fall back not = just to 100 but also to 10 Mb/s. That's part of standards conformance, and f= rom what I can tell even low cost devices like D-Link or Netgear do this. Ye= s, including half duplex mode. paul --===============4664674092169517010==-- From ggs@shiresoft.com Thu May 25 19:06:40 2023 From: Guy Sotomayor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 10:06:01 -0700 Message-ID: <67028519-4b16-a236-590d-12b791b857ec@shiresoft.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1259724698081434252==" --===============1259724698081434252== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/25/23 10:00, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/25/23 08:58, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> ADA and SPARK (a stripped down version of ADA) are used heavily in >> embedded that has to be "safety certified".  SPARK also allows the code >> to be "proven" (as in you can write formal proofs to ensure that the >> code does what you say it does).  Ask me how I know.  ;-) > I was aware of Ada's requirements in the defense- and aerospace-related > industry. Is that where your experience lies? Is SPARK the "magic > bullet" that's been searched for decades to write provably correct code? I'm familiar with it from the higher end automotive perspective (self-driving cars).  Even when using C/C++ we have *lots* of standards that we have to adhere to (MISRA, CERT-C, ISO-26262, etc). The way SPARK works is that you have code and then can also provide proofs for the code.  Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if you want a platinum level proof). -- TTFN - Guy --===============1259724698081434252==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu May 25 19:19:05 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 14:13:58 -0500 Message-ID: <828609192.167427.1685042038650@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2290750406753819612==" --===============2290750406753819612== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 05/25/2023 11:13 AM CDT Mike Katz via cctalk w= rote: >=20 >=20 > Chuck, >=20 > I agree with you that well written and commented C is the way to go. >=20 > The advantage to an IDE comes with debugging and easy access symbols and > variables. >=20 Some IDEs can be convinced to use standard makefiles. I have used Eclipse th= at way. So you still have fully buildable (and maintainable) code should an = "upgrade" break stuff or the tool becomes unavailable. =20 Eclipse is a a java dog and keeping it up to date between versions is a pain,= but in my experience the benefits Mike mentioned are well worth it. Will --===============2290750406753819612==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 25 19:31:09 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 12:30:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <67028519-4b16-a236-590d-12b791b857ec@shiresoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0195111099923212385==" --===============0195111099923212385== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > The way SPARK works is that you have code and then can also provide > proofs for the code.  Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write > and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if > you want a platinum level proof). ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... --Chuck --===============0195111099923212385==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 25 19:36:13 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 12:36:02 -0700 Message-ID: <192766ba-0781-e3d5-4c32-1a0f30615552@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <828609192.167427.1685042038650@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8264208510490349135==" --===============8264208510490349135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/25/23 12:13, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Eclipse is a a java dog and keeping it up to date between versions is a pai= n, but in my experience the benefits Mike mentioned are well worth it. For an editor, I use Joe--available on platforms from MSDOS to Linux X64 as well as Windows. It's basically a re-hash of WordStar, which goes way back to the 8080 CP/M days. Of course, current Joe knows some C syntax, does correct highlighting, etc. About 40 years ago, I used emacs with the electric-C addon. It was okay. I still code my makefiles by hand. --Chuck --===============8264208510490349135==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 25 20:03:09 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 13:02:55 -0700 Message-ID: <820cd48a-8228-2082-75b0-d6fda7f82585@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6940793193554810311==" --===============6940793193554810311== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wondering what's marking Guy's posts with ***SPAM***. It's beginning to look like a Monty Python sketch. --Chuck --===============6940793193554810311==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 25 20:21:49 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 16:21:39 -0400 Message-ID: <54BC4BE9-EF5E-4A2C-8660-58393B8BB2BD@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4046671957177722731==" --===============4046671957177722731== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 25, 2023, at 3:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >=20 >> The way SPARK works is that you have code and then can also provide >> proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write >> and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if >> you want a platinum level proof). >=20 > ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... >=20 > --Chuck Yes. The problem is the gap between informal understanding and formal descri= ption. For many programmers, that gap occurs when the program source is crea= ted. If the programs are subjected to formal proofs, the gap occurs when the= formal specs are written. So such things are largely a non-solution. They may help a little if the gap= to the formal spec is smaller. If, as Guy is saying, the formal spec is lar= ger than the code, then obviously that won't be the case. Languages other than C and C++ have advantages in that they detect, or avoid,= a whole lot of bugs that C/C++ ignore, like bounds violations or memory leak= s. So Ada can be helpful in that some bugs are harder or impossible to creat= e, or more likely to be detected in testing. But, in spite of having taken a= very interesting week-long course on program proofs by pioneer E.W. Dijkstra= , I don't actually believe in those things. The 737MAX is a classic example of designers turning off their brains before = doing their work. It is obvious even to me (who have never created safety-se= nsitive software) that you don't attach systems with single points of failure= such as non-replicated sensors to a control system whose specific purpose is= to point the airplane nose DOWN. If you do your work with your brain disabl= ed you can't produce correct software, with or without formal proofs. paul --===============4046671957177722731==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Thu May 25 20:38:52 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 13:38:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0069776413342119865==" --===============0069776413342119865== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 25 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> > >> The way SPARK works is that you have code and then can also provide >> proofs for the code.  Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write >> and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if >> you want a platinum level proof). > > ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... > That wasn't a software problem, that was a criminally cheap management problem - they deleted the comparator for the AoA indexer to save money. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============0069776413342119865==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Thu May 25 20:43:46 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 21:43:39 +0100 Message-ID: <00d901d98f49$9687b140$c39713c0$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <01SRKZH2F9ZW8WW2SM@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4697631213357104615==" --===============4697631213357104615== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Coghlan via cctalk > Sent: 20 May 2023 09:20 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Cc: Peter Coghlan > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault >=20 >=20 >=20 > Ok, it looks like there is not a severe leak from the -12V line to ground t= hen. >=20 > I am puzzled by the extra current draw on Vstart by the bad PSU but I'm not > sure that tracking this down would lead us to the real problem. >=20 > On the other hand, did you mention at one point that Vstart was varying? > If this is the case, the reason for this would probably need to be found and > fixed independent of whether it leads to finding the main problem as this is > supposed to be a stable supply. >=20 > I don't think there is likely to be any serious leakage via E1b because the= link > to the -12V line is via a 75K resistor which would limit any leakage curren= t to > roughly 160uA. Of course this applies if the resistor really is 75K and do= esn't > have carbon deposits bridging the tracks and connections around it to > somewhere else. >=20 > I would suggest looking carefully at the resistors around E3d to make sure > they have the correct values, especially the 360K resistor and making sure > there is no debris etc around these components that could be bridging any > connections associated with them to somewhere else, also that no > connections have been severed. Problems here could be leading to E3d > falsely triggering when there is no real overload. >=20 > It might be useful to check the voltages and resistor values in the -12V > regulator and compare with same in the good power supply, especially the > voltage across the zener diode. >=20 > > > > > > Is this the same PSU whose chopper transistor exploded a while back? > > > Could there be any carbon deposits remaining on the board or > > > conductive remnants wedged under components etc causing leakage > from > > > the -12V line to ground? > > > > The component nearest to the exploded transistor is the 10uF capacitor > > on the output of the 12V regulator. There are some carbon deposits on > > it. I did a cursory check for resistance and ESR and it seemed OK. > > >=20 > This capacitor is probably there to ensure the 7812 doesn't oscillate. Loo= king > at Vstart with an oscilloscope should confirm that this is not an issue. I= f it > doesn't have excessive leakage current and has approximately the correct > capacitance, it is probably ok. However, if there is gunk trapped undernea= th > it around the leads, this might account for the extra current draw on Vstar= t. >=20 > The explosion could have had other bad effects. Maybe E3 got damaged by a > surge in its power supply when the transistor blew up? Maybe the -12V > rectifier was affected? It is probably not as robust as the rectifiers for= the > other lines and the chopper transistor shorting would have likely caused a > big current pulse in the chopper transformer primary, leading in turn to > surges at it's secondaries. Also the diode in parallel with the 51R sense > resistor might be suspect. >=20 > I'm not sure how to test these components comprehensively without trying > replacements for them. >=20 > If the 7812 was damaged at the time of the explosion, other components > powered from Vstart could have experienced surges as well. Maybe stuff on > the input side of the 7812 too? >=20 This evening I went to check Vstart for any oscillation. However, all of a su= dden, the current draw is down to 85mA and PWM has started working. I am at a= loss to explain it. I wondered if there might be a dry joint, but I have tri= ed a few light taps and shakes and it continues to work. Perhaps your idea of= some debris causing a short might explain it, otherwise I just don't know. I am thinking I may put it back together and test with a light bulb in series. Regards Rob --===============4697631213357104615==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 25 20:44:01 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 16:43:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4121477556321497645==" --===============4121477556321497645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 25, 2023, at 4:38 PM, geneb via cctalk wro= te: >=20 > On Thu, 25 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>=20 >>> The way SPARK works is that you have code and then can also provide >>> proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write >>> and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if >>> you want a platinum level proof). >>=20 >> ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... >>=20 > That wasn't a software problem, that was a criminally cheap management prob= lem - they deleted the comparator for the AoA indexer to save money. So? We know managers often don't know engineering or reliability, that's why= we have engineers. It's not just the job of the engineer to follow orders; = it's also his job to make the right thing happen, and to complain if it isn't. Engineers keeping quiet has been a key contributor in many spectacular failur= es, from the 737 MAX to the two Space Shuttle failures. paul --===============4121477556321497645==-- From ggs@shiresoft.com Thu May 25 22:17:14 2023 From: Guy Sotomayor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 14:32:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <54BC4BE9-EF5E-4A2C-8660-58393B8BB2BD@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8784901578746504327==" --===============8784901578746504327== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/25/23 13:21, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On May 25, 2023, at 3:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >>> The way SPARK works is that you have code and then can also provide >>> proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write >>> and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if >>> you want a platinum level proof). >> ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... >> >> --Chuck > Yes. The problem is the gap between informal understanding and formal desc= ription. For many programmers, that gap occurs when the program source is cr= eated. If the programs are subjected to formal proofs, the gap occurs when t= he formal specs are written. > > So such things are largely a non-solution. They may help a little if the g= ap to the formal spec is smaller. If, as Guy is saying, the formal spec is l= arger than the code, then obviously that won't be the case. In our particular case, we spend about 10x developing all of the=20 "safety" collateral (requirement docs, architecture docs, design docs,=20 etc) than actually writing, debugging and testing the code. Part of the problem is that most of the automotive safety standards were=20 developed for fairly simple use cases (1000s to a few 10's of 1000s=20 lines of code).=C2=A0 In our particular case, we're looking at 10's of=20 millions of lines of code and we've discovered that a lot of the=20 processes specified by the standards do not scale well to that level of=20 code.=C2=A0 :-/ > Languages other than C and C++ have advantages in that they detect, or avoi= d, a whole lot of bugs that C/C++ ignore, like bounds violations or memory le= aks. So Ada can be helpful in that some bugs are harder or impossible to cre= ate, or more likely to be detected in testing. But, in spite of having taken= a very interesting week-long course on program proofs by pioneer E.W. Dijkst= ra, I don't actually believe in those things. I don't either.=C2=A0 ;-)=C2=A0 Proofs are *hard* and take a special way of=20 thinking about the problem.=C2=A0 For example, prove that a doubly linked=20 list points only to elements allowed in the linked list (e.g. things=20 that have only been placed on the list) and that the forward and=20 backward pointers actually point to the elements they're supposed=20 to...and that's one of the simpler things that needs to be proved. It=20 gets *really* interesting when you try and prove that the scheduler is=20 actually scheduling the way it's supposed to.=C2=A0 :-/ > > The 737MAX is a classic example of designers turning off their brains befor= e doing their work. It is obvious even to me (who have never created safety-= sensitive software) that you don't attach systems with single points of failu= re such as non-replicated sensors to a control system whose specific purpose = is to point the airplane nose DOWN. If you do your work with your brain disa= bled you can't produce correct software, with or without formal proofs. Yes, in self-driving cars we do "sensor fusion" which allows us to=20 derive (and validate/replicate) data from various sensors.=C2=A0 For example,= =20 we use cameras, LIDAR, etc to validate each other's data. The point is=20 to not have a "single point of failure". --=20 TTFN - Guy --===============8784901578746504327==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Thu May 25 22:35:24 2023 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] MCAS (was: Re: Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.) Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 15:29:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8757295145523801828==" --===============8757295145523801828== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/25/23 12:30, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... I get your point, but it's a bad example.  MCAS worked precisely as specified, and while one could have a discussion regarding if those specifications were wrong, the logic was that a MCAS failure was indistinguishable from any other 737 trim runaway and was to be handled in the same fashion. Perhaps this is an example of Brooks' observation that most bugs in software are in fact bugs in specification. I can even sorta understand the thought processes behind the specs. While there were two hull losses, there have been many, many, many more MCAS failures; the only time they resulted in holes in the ground is when the trim runaway procedures weren't followed -- that being a sort of sobering thought given that there are all sorts of other things that can lead to that happening beyond MCAS. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…" --===============8757295145523801828==-- From stepleton@gmail.com Thu May 25 22:36:14 2023 From: Tom Stepleton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Recovering floppies attacked by mould Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 23:35:59 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2436690336083359044==" --===============2436690336083359044== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, Amidst all the floppy archiving discussion, here's a slightly different question: The weather is warmer now where I live, so it's starting to be a good time to do messy work outdoors. I have some mouldy floppy diskettes that I'd like to try to read (mostly 5.25"), plus a good flux reader. What is the best way to attempt to image these floppies? My thinking right now is that for each floppy I can attempt this procedure: - remove the mouldy cookie from the infected disk jacket; discard the latter - give the cookie the best clean I can (how?) and allow to dry - place the cookie in a clean disk jacket - attempt to image - clean floppy drive heads Does this seem like a sensible plan? If so, what would be the best way to clean as much mould off the cookie as I can? Tools that come to mind are distilled water (tap water here is full of chalk), dish soap, cyclomethicone, and of course more fearsome solvents. I have kimwipes, microfibre cloths, and... 200-grit sandpaper, I guess :-) Thanks for any advice, --Tom --===============2436690336083359044==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Thu May 25 22:43:31 2023 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 15:43:23 -0700 Message-ID: <1d6164ce-e815-8699-407f-6f82469d846c@mainecoon.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3821205341459883557==" --===============3821205341459883557== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/25/23 13:38, geneb via cctalk wrote: > That wasn't a software problem, that was a criminally cheap management > problem - they deleted the comparator for the AoA indexer to save money. Yes, but probably not Boeing's.  AoA disagree was an available option that most /airlines/ explicitly elected not to purchase. Part of the AD was requiring that system, plus limiting MCAS authority so that if you hadn't noticed the trim wheel whacking you in the side of the leg you at least couldn't get into a situation where it would take three people to overpower the combined trim and aeroloading forces, and notably, sim time to review trim runaway procedures.  It's not reassuring how many crews got trim runaway wrong in the sim. AoA disagreement on the B737 is weird anyway.  Each AoA sensor drives one half of the cockpit stall avoidance systems, so the way you typically tell that a sensor has failed is when the stick shaker on one side starts going nuts while the other one doesn't. Honestly, the biggest blame here probably belongs on the doorstep of Southwest. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…" --===============3821205341459883557==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Thu May 25 22:47:31 2023 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 23:47:24 +0100 Message-ID: <35c13078-0c52-9cf4-50c0-9ef947ee662f@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7495050066707862871==" --===============7495050066707862871== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 25/05/2023 19:47, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Not only that, but all correctly implemented GigE devices will fall back no= t just to 100 but also to 10 Mb/s. That's part of standards conformance, and= from what I can tell even low cost devices like D-Link or Netgear do this. = Yes, including half duplex mode. In ~1997 my ISP provided a Terajet 410 and that was very fussy about=20 what it would talk to; I couldn't get it to talk to my PC or laptop at=20 the time at 100MB/s ... in the end I just connected to it via a small=20 DEChub at 10MB/s and it worked perfectly. Right now my motherboard has a 2.5GB/s ethernet port and it needed=20 poking with ethtool to autonegotiate at 1Gbps with a TP-LINK TL-SG116.=20 No idea why yet and I probably won't know until I have a chance to power=20 both off and prod. So your statement about "correctly implemented GigE devices" is=20 technically correct (the best kind of 'correct'!) but I have yet to be=20 convinced that it's not describing the null set :-) Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============7495050066707862871==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Thu May 25 23:07:23 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 23:43:04 +0100 Message-ID: <01SRSR99GDBU8WXDOY@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <00d901d98f49$9687b140$c39713c0$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8624993282312901203==" --===============8624993282312901203== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > This evening I went to check Vstart for any oscillation. However, all of a > sudden, the current draw is down to 85mA and PWM has started working. I am > at a loss to explain it. I wondered if there might be a dry joint, but I > have tried a few light taps and shakes and it continues to work. Perhaps > your idea of some debris causing a short might explain it, otherwise I just > don't know. > This one is a real doozie :-( > > I am thinking I may put it back together and test with a light bulb in seri= es. > Go for it. I can't think of anything else to suggest trying at the moment. Regards Peter. --===============8624993282312901203==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu May 25 23:15:12 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Recovering floppies attacked by mould Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 16:15:00 -0700 Message-ID: <9cd43f9a-862f-77eb-add9-2c8903d9dbae@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4746205131810837966==" --===============4746205131810837966== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/25/23 15:35, Tom Stepleton via cctalk wrote: > Does this seem like a sensible plan? If so, what would be the best way to > clean as much mould off the cookie as I can? Tools that come to mind are > distilled water (tap water here is full of chalk), dish soap, > cyclomethicone, and of course more fearsome solvents. I have kimwipes, > microfibre cloths, and... 200-grit sandpaper, I guess :-) Sounds like a workable plan--I use distilled water and Kodak Photflo (a wetting agent), lint-free wipes and air-drying. I usually coat the cookie with a drop or two of cyclomethicone before reading, just as a precaution. --Chuck --===============4746205131810837966==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu May 25 23:34:30 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MCAS (was: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.) Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 19:34:19 -0400 Message-ID: <6D1B066C-1077-42FA-8B0F-DE7842FEB2F1@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4984328482638877392==" --===============4984328482638877392== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 25, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 5/25/23 12:30, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... >=20 > I get your point, but it's a bad example. MCAS worked precisely as specifi= ed, and while one could have a discussion regarding if those specifications w= ere wrong, the logic was that a MCAS failure was indistinguishable from any o= ther 737 trim runaway and was to be handled in the same fashion. Perhaps this= is an example of Brooks' observation that most bugs in software are in fact = bugs in specification. I'm not sure that observation is true anymore, with the "hack it until it sto= ps crashing" approach to software development that seems to have been brought= to us by the PC and gaming culture. In my work (storage servers) I would from time to time see bug reports closed= by the engineer as "works as designed". I would remind them that they are o= nly permitted to say that if (a) the program matches the spec, AND (b) the sp= ec is right. I would say "if you're not able to stand on a conference center= stage and explain to an audience of 1000 customers why the spec is right, yo= u can't use 'works as designed'. The bug may be in the spec rather than in = the code, but it's still a bug. Fix it." paul --===============4984328482638877392==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri May 26 00:12:20 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Recovering floppies attacked by mould Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 17:11:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7057353429673787989==" --===============7057353429673787989== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom, You may save yourself some time with this nifty contraption ==> https://www.ebay.com/itm/303620862566 It's a floppy disk cleaning apparatus. You place the floppy disk into the frame, apply your cleaning solution and cloth to the index opening, and then manually spin the disk. Sellam On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 3:36 PM Tom Stepleton via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings, > > Amidst all the floppy archiving discussion, here's a slightly different > question: > > The weather is warmer now where I live, so it's starting to be a good time > to do messy work outdoors. I have some mouldy floppy diskettes that I'd > like to try to read (mostly 5.25"), plus a good flux reader. What is the > best way to attempt to image these floppies? > > My thinking right now is that for each floppy I can attempt this procedure: > - remove the mouldy cookie from the infected disk jacket; discard the > latter > - give the cookie the best clean I can (how?) and allow to dry > - place the cookie in a clean disk jacket > - attempt to image > - clean floppy drive heads > > Does this seem like a sensible plan? If so, what would be the best way to > clean as much mould off the cookie as I can? Tools that come to mind are > distilled water (tap water here is full of chalk), dish soap, > cyclomethicone, and of course more fearsome solvents. I have kimwipes, > microfibre cloths, and... 200-grit sandpaper, I guess :-) > > Thanks for any advice, > --Tom > --===============7057353429673787989==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri May 26 00:28:08 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Recovering floppies attacked by mould Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 17:28:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2750666791303412554==" --===============2750666791303412554== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 25 May 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Tom, > You may save yourself some time with this nifty contraption ==> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/303620862566 > It's a floppy disk cleaning apparatus. You place the floppy disk into the > frame, apply your cleaning solution and cloth to the index opening, and > then manually spin the disk. It looks handy for mild cleaning, where the cookie doesn't need to be removed from the jacket. Some disks should be removed, and discard the old jacket, and not even put the disk into another jacket until it has had some cleaning. If leaving the disk in the jacket, . . . I have encountered plenty of 5.25" and 8" disks, where the disk doesn't turn freely. Rub the edge of the disk/jacket on a corner of a table, firmly enough that it is bowing SLIGHTLY. Do that for all four edges of the floppy jacket. The disk will now turn free-er. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2750666791303412554==-- From jrr@flippers.com Fri May 26 00:32:21 2023 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Recovering floppies attacked by mould Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 17:32:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7952467818969368144==" --===============7952467818969368144== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023/05/25 5:11 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Tom, > > You may save yourself some time with this nifty contraption =3D=3D> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/303620862566 > > It's a floppy disk cleaning apparatus. You place the floppy disk into the > frame, apply your cleaning solution and cloth to the index opening, and > then manually spin the disk. > > Sellam If you have a 3D printer then Thingiverse has 3.5 and 5.25 inch floppy=20 cleaner files: https://www.thingiverse.com/search?q=3Dfloppy+disc+cleaner&page=3D1&type=3Dth= ings&sort=3Drelevant John :-#)# > > On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 3:36=E2=80=AFPM Tom Stepleton via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> Amidst all the floppy archiving discussion, here's a slightly different >> question: >> >> The weather is warmer now where I live, so it's starting to be a good time >> to do messy work outdoors. I have some mouldy floppy diskettes that I'd >> like to try to read (mostly 5.25"), plus a good flux reader. What is the >> best way to attempt to image these floppies? >> >> My thinking right now is that for each floppy I can attempt this procedure: >> - remove the mouldy cookie from the infected disk jacket; discard the >> latter >> - give the cookie the best clean I can (how?) and allow to dry >> - place the cookie in a clean disk jacket >> - attempt to image >> - clean floppy drive heads >> >> Does this seem like a sensible plan? If so, what would be the best way to >> clean as much mould off the cookie as I can? Tools that come to mind are >> distilled water (tap water here is full of chalk), dish soap, >> cyclomethicone, and of course more fearsome solvents. I have kimwipes, >> microfibre cloths, and... 200-grit sandpaper, I guess :-) >> >> Thanks for any advice, >> --Tom >> --=20 John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============7952467818969368144==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri May 26 03:40:09 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Fri, 26 May 2023 04:39:51 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <05871569-cee0-e97e-2286-f49a0cb3486e@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0715265184878102107==" --===============0715265184878102107== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would it be possible to build a small computer, 8088/8086 > just for this? > I don't see why not, but given the choice I'd pick just about any other processor family. Probably a 68000. -tony --===============0715265184878102107==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Fri May 26 16:24:35 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Fri, 26 May 2023 09:24:23 -0700 Message-ID: <60EF46BC-E71A-4A9A-8368-45179B1D3E37@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <00d901d98f49$9687b140$c39713c0$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0525571461171009354==" --===============0525571461171009354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-May-25, at 1:43 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >=20 > This evening I went to check Vstart for any oscillation. However, all of a = sudden, the current draw is down to 85mA and PWM has started working. I am at= a loss to explain it. I wondered if there might be a dry joint, but I have t= ried a few light taps and shakes and it continues to work. Perhaps your idea = of some debris causing a short might explain it, otherwise I just don't know. Operation with only VStart+12 places the circuitry into an unspecified operat= ing region - a region outside of the design intentions. In part, several semi= conductor junctions and portions of circuitry are polarised opposite to their= normal/designed-for state. It is not surprising that you are seeing odd/unpr= edictable behaviour under this operating environment, nor is it surprising th= at it's different than the 'good' supply under the same operating environment. So why was it in shutdown earlier the other day but not now? : Who knows - it's operating in an unspecified region. Perhaps the room tempera= ture is 2 degrees higher. That's a serious point, not phase-of-the-moon satir= e. When you supplied the proper startup environment with both Vstart+12 and Vsta= rt-12 both the bad and good unit behaved as expected for the design. Why is the VStart+12 current draw higher when it was in shutdown versus when = the PWM controller IC is pulsing? : Because in shutdown the 'Chopper Driver' transistor (PSU Sheet 2) is held har= d ON (conducting) (see datasheet). Holding this transistor ON subtracts it's off-state current (~ 17mA) but adds= it's on-state base current (~ 37mA) and it's on-state collector current (~ 7= 3mA), for a net up-to ~ 93mA increase (may be less dependant on duty cycle of= PWM), to the Vstart+12 current. There remain two unexplained things here: - Where was that unusual current-sense voltage that sends it into shutdown c= oming from? (I provided one potential explanation earlier, but it remains unknown at thi= s time). - The 51-ohm current-sense resistor in the -12V supply vs the mode of operat= ion of=20 the -12 supply remains unexplained/non-sensical. At the max current you ment= ioned (150mA), the V drop across that R would be >7V (!), which makes no sense. If I had it= in hand, I'd be double-checking the drawing of that current-sense circuit around the 51-ohm = R as a start. But this is not to say that either of these has anything to do with the fault= you were/are dealing with, they're just things that aren't understood at thi= s point. Either or both could be pursued out of curiosity or for the sake of = completeness. > I am thinking I may put it back together and test with a light bulb in seri= es. --===============0525571461171009354==-- From philip@axeside.co.uk Sat May 27 19:47:41 2023 From: philip@axeside.co.uk To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 27 May 2023 20:13:12 +0100 Message-ID: <5da1624b-a53e-726b-418a-d459e1fae155@axeside.co.uk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5551114929563611227==" --===============5551114929563611227== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot simpler. So use a card > reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an > interface for that to ISA bus. Thinking of that, I had actually wondered whether one could transfer the appropriate image files from a modern PC (internet access) to a classic PC (disk drives) using a SCSI hard drive. Not if the modern PC is a laptop, I suppose. Tony, I don't recall what became of the AT with 486 replacement processor that used to be your main home machine.  ISTR it had loads of different floppy drives hung off it.  Is it still functional / repairable? Also, a passive ISA backplanes used to be fairly common.  Mine has (had?) a 486 [1], but I think there were pentium processor cards available.  I have no idea what your spares box might contribute in that line, though. Philip. [1] I found the backplane in a recent clearout, but I can't remember what cards it had in it. --===============5551114929563611227==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sat May 27 21:00:15 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 27 May 2023 22:51:11 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3134198678444397860==" --===============3134198678444397860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 02:47:06PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 2023-05-25 5:52 a.m., Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > ... > > It is not unheard-of for classic PCs -- even ISAbus ones -- to have > > 10Mbps ethernet. Most, if not all, 100Mbps ethernet ports will fall > > back to that.=20 >=20 > Not only that, but all correctly implemented GigE devices will fall back no= t just to 100 but also to 10 Mb/s. That's part of standards conformance, and= from what I can tell even low cost devices like D-Link or Netgear do this. = Yes, including half duplex mode. >=20 Yup, had that happen on one of my machines with a 100 MBit/s NIC wired to a GBit switch. It dropped all the way down to 10 MBit/s half-duplex and still lost packets at a hilarious rate - because the cable had gone bad. After replacing the cable it was back to 100 MBit/s. But the point is: the GBit switch followed along all the way down to 10 MBit/s half-duplex "hey, if that's all you can do, fine", just as the spec said it should. Kind regards, Alex. --=20 "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============3134198678444397860==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sat May 27 21:00:19 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MCAS (was: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.) Date: Sat, 27 May 2023 22:48:02 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6D1B066C-1077-42FA-8B0F-DE7842FEB2F1@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4303042924720159354==" --===============4303042924720159354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 07:34:19PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On May 25, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > >=20 > > On 5/25/23 12:30, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... > >=20 > > I get your point, but it's a bad example. MCAS worked precisely as speci= fied, and while one could have a discussion regarding if those specifications= were wrong, the logic was that a MCAS failure was indistinguishable from any= other 737 trim runaway and was to be handled in the same fashion. Perhaps th= is is an example of Brooks' observation that most bugs in software are in fac= t bugs in specification. >=20 > I'm not sure that observation is true anymore, with the "hack it until it s= tops crashing" approach to software development that seems to have been broug= ht to us by the PC and gaming culture. >=20 > In my work (storage servers) I would from time to time see bug reports clos= ed by the engineer as "works as designed". I would remind them that they are= only permitted to say that if (a) the program matches the spec, AND (b) the = spec is right. I would say "if you're not able to stand on a conference cent= er stage and explain to an audience of 1000 customers why the spec is right, = you can't use 'works as designed'. The bug may be in the spec rather than i= n the code, but it's still a bug. Fix it." Which is why among the more cynic^Wexperienced SREs (my line of work) we sometimes use the term "Working As Implemented" when the code behaves exactly as written (and ofteni as specified), but still does the wrong thing because it (usually) was written with wrong assumptions. Kind regards, Alex. --=20 "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============4303042924720159354==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sat May 27 21:05:01 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 27 May 2023 22:38:06 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7452885127075501119==" --===============7452885127075501119== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 12:30:52PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > > > > The way SPARK works is that you have code and then can also provide > > proofs for the code.  Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write > > and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if > > you want a platinum level proof). > > ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... That was Working As Implemented. Turns out, if you change the way the aircraft behaves under some conditions and you can't be bothered to tell the pilots about it, bad things are eventually going to happen. Bonus points for making safety related features extra-cost items (so your cheaper airlines won't buy them, with predictable results). Extra bonus points for having achieved regulatory capture and so being allowed to handwave "It will be fine, trust us" the certifications. One long term result is that European agencies learned to no longer trust the FAA. The root cause was that Boeing was trying to do things on the cheap, going "This is still your fathers old 737, just a little spruced up" when it was effectively a different plane - but admitting that would have triggered lots of expensive things (certifications, pilot training for a new aircraft, ...). There are businesses where you can get away with being cheap and there are types of business where a little extra profit will be paid for with _someones_ blood. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============7452885127075501119==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sat May 27 22:28:59 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sat, 27 May 2023 18:28:52 -0400 Message-ID: <394e1d61-0c32-f938-3e15-e4d9ffce5590@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2557931201869239038==" --===============2557931201869239038== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-05-27 16:38, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 12:30:52PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >>> The way SPARK works is that you have code and then can also provide >>> proofs for the code.  Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write >>> and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if >>> you want a platinum level proof). >> ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... > That was Working As Implemented. Turns out, if you change the way > the aircraft behaves under some conditions and you can't be bothered > to tell the pilots about it, bad things are eventually going to happen. > > Bonus points for making safety related features extra-cost items > (so your cheaper airlines won't buy them, with predictable results). > > Extra bonus points for having achieved regulatory capture and so > being allowed to handwave "It will be fine, trust us" the certifications. > > One long term result is that European agencies learned to no longer > trust the FAA. > > The root cause was that Boeing was trying to do things on the cheap, > going "This is still your fathers old 737, just a little spruced up" > when it was effectively a different plane - but admitting that would > have triggered lots of expensive things (certifications, pilot training > for a new aircraft, ...). > > There are businesses where you can get away with being cheap and > there are types of business where a little extra profit will be > paid for with _someones_ blood. > > Kind regards, > Alex. I think you have hit the nail on the head there, Alex. not wanting to cause airlines to analyse the cost of extra pilot training and thus compare to the cost of equivalent Airbus product. I have a friend who has a full 737 simulator in his house (no FO seat though) and he put me through a trim runaway. Two toggle switches down on the engine quadrant just disabled the system if the pilots knew what was happening! -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============2557931201869239038==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 27 22:42:58 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MCAS Date: Sat, 27 May 2023 16:42:49 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8249270437540413942==" --===============8249270437540413942== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-05-27 2:48 p.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 07:34:19PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On May 25, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 5/25/23 12:30, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>> ...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... >>> >>> I get your point, but it's a bad example. MCAS worked precisely as speci= fied, and while one could have a discussion regarding if those specifications= were wrong, the logic was that a MCAS failure was indistinguishable from any= other 737 trim runaway and was to be handled in the same fashion. Perhaps th= is is an example of Brooks' observation that most bugs in software are in fac= t bugs in specification. >> >> I'm not sure that observation is true anymore, with the "hack it until it = stops crashing" approach to software development that seems to have been brou= ght to us by the PC and gaming culture. >> >> In my work (storage servers) I would from time to time see bug reports clo= sed by the engineer as "works as designed". I would remind them that they ar= e only permitted to say that if (a) the program matches the spec, AND (b) the= spec is right. I would say "if you're not able to stand on a conference cen= ter stage and explain to an audience of 1000 customers why the spec is right,= you can't use 'works as designed'. The bug may be in the spec rather than = in the code, but it's still a bug. Fix it." >=20 >=20 > Which is why among the more cynic^Wexperienced SREs (my line of work) > we sometimes use the term "Working As Implemented" when the code behaves > exactly as written (and ofteni as specified), but still does the wrong > thing because it (usually) was written with wrong assumptions. >=20 > Kind regards, > Alex. How do prove it with typo-graphical errors in the docs? Ben. --===============8249270437540413942==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat May 27 22:58:51 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MCAS Date: Sat, 27 May 2023 15:58:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2546134363695018446==" --===============2546134363695018446== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/27/23 15:42, ben via cctalk wrote: > How do prove it with typo-graphical errors in the docs? > Ben. Bottom line to me is that people died as the result of bad practices. --Chuck --===============2546134363695018446==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Sat May 27 23:37:28 2023 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 01:37:18 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0778300088287397830==" --===============0778300088287397830== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 12:52:39PM +0100, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: [...] > USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot simpler. So use a card > reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an > interface for that to ISA bus. No need even to design anything or faff around copying files between formats as flash-to-IDE widgets are available from the likes of AliExpress for peanuts. Your choice of flash: CF, SD, mSATA, NVMe, there are widgets for them all and probably some I've missed. On the IDE side you've got the chose of male or female, 40- or 44-pin IDE. (Watch out for that "50-pin IDE" that some of the less knowledgable sellers have, unless you actually want SCSI.) Given free choice, I'm more inclined to go SD-to-IDE. CF cards may well emulate IDE devices and can use a passive adaptor and so feel more appropriate to the task, but unless you've got a nice cache of old CF cards which aren't knackered, the cost of new ones are prohibitive as they're intended for professional applications such as high-end digital cameras. SD cards are dirt cheap unless you're buying them by the terabyte (and not unreasonably expensive even then). For the specific case of a desktop PC, there are CF-to-IDE widgets mounted on a card slot bracket so you can swap cards without opening the machine (but powering-down is probably wise). These are completely passive and don't go into a slot, so can be installed in any machine it'll physically fit; ISA, PCIe, Zorro, whatever. Depending on clearances, it might even be able to share the same slot with a plug-in IDE controller. SD extension cables are a thing for smaller machines without card slots. I have one in my Amiga 1000 as the ribbon cable can be routed through quite small gaps in the case. --===============0778300088287397830==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun May 28 06:18:15 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 07:17:54 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5da1624b-a53e-726b-418a-d459e1fae155@axeside.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3801722265945138826==" --===============3801722265945138826== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 8:47 PM philip--- via cctalk wrote: > > > > USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot simpler. So use a card > > reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an > > interface for that to ISA bus. > > Thinking of that, I had actually wondered whether one could transfer the > appropriate image files from a modern PC (internet access) to a classic > PC (disk drives) using a SCSI hard drive. Not if the modern PC is a > laptop, I suppose. I suspect USB-SCSI interfaces exist but I've not looked into one. Since SCSI is a 'formatted' interface it shouldn't be too hard to make pseudo disk drive using flash memory. I must look into that to make a SASI drive for my P2000C. I suspect it's easier to use CF cards. At least some USB card readers can handle those. And the interface is essentially the same as the IDE hard disk.... > > Tony, I don't recall what became of the AT with 486 replacement > processor that used to be your main home machine. ISTR it had loads of > different floppy drives hung off it. Is it still functional / repairable? Still works, or at least it did when I last powered it up. But no easy way to read USB sticks or SD cards on it. -tony --===============3801722265945138826==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun May 28 09:25:54 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MCAS (was: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.) Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 10:25:35 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3813675356885737562==" --===============3813675356885737562== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 10:00 PM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > Which is why among the more cynic^Wexperienced SREs (my line of work) > we sometimes use the term "Working As Implemented" when the code behaves > exactly as written (and ofteni as specified), but still does the wrong > thing because it (usually) was written with wrong assumptions. I generally say 'Broken as designed' meaning it does what the design says it should, but what the design specifies is stupid. I often say that about bits of the ISA bus and things designed for it, for example. -tony --===============3813675356885737562==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sun May 28 12:55:08 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 14:42:45 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4303154874804633838==" --===============4303154874804633838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 07:17:54AM +0100, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 8:47 PM philip--- via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > > USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot simpler. So use a card > > > reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an > > > interface for that to ISA bus. > > > > Thinking of that, I had actually wondered whether one could transfer the > > appropriate image files from a modern PC (internet access) to a classic > > PC (disk drives) using a SCSI hard drive. Not if the modern PC is a > > laptop, I suppose. > > I suspect USB-SCSI interfaces exist but I've not looked into one. Adaptec USB2Xchange is one that kept popping up when I looked for just such a thing years ago. Acquired one some time ago (from EBay, because of course the product has been EoL for years). Haven't used it yet, but it presumably works reasonably well. > Since SCSI is a 'formatted' interface it shouldn't be too hard to make > pseudo disk drive using flash memory. I must look into that to make a > SASI drive for my P2000C. There is a whole collection of SCSI device emulators out there and they usually tend to use SD or CF cards for actual storage. > I suspect it's easier to use CF cards. At least some USB card readers > can handle those. And the interface is essentially the same as the IDE > hard disk.... It helps that a lot of the pro DSLR cameras used CF as storage for quite some time, so card readers for CF should be easy to find. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============4303154874804633838==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun May 28 13:32:40 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 14:32:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2988620363170368368==" --===============2988620363170368368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony, An instrument slightly more to your taste than a PC might a 16500b logic analyser. Perhaps you've already got one. I believe these can work with both LIF and MSDOS floppies and uses an IDE HDD (which can painlessly be replaced with CF card) in DOS format internally. I don't know if it will handle other than 3.5" formats but it's quite possible that the support for those formats is generic and it might work, given an appropriately mangled hardware interface. -adrian --===============2988620363170368368==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Sun May 28 14:42:05 2023 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 15:41:55 +0100 Message-ID: <74b192c1.1959d.18862cf0848.Webtop.110@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6110000134909763333==" --===============6110000134909763333== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------ Original Message ------ From: "Tony Duell via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: philip(a)axeside.co.uk; "Tony Duell" Sent: Sunday, 28 May, 2023 At 07:17 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. I suspect USB-SCSI interfaces exist but I've not looked into one. Since SCSI is a 'formatted' interface it shouldn't be too hard to make pseudo disk drive using flash memory. I must look into that to make a SASI drive for my P2000C. I'm suprised to hear you're familliar with the GreaseWeasel but have never heard of BlueSCSI. ( https://scsi.blue/ ). Though SASI compatability seems "possible but not guaranteed", being an open source project, you can probably wangle the existing PCB's/software to be SASI compliant. More research, that i can leave you to perform, will probably help with that endeavor. As for a means to interface SCSI to USB, they do exist, but are often expensive and of debatable compatibility. You will almost always have a much better experience with a SCSI PCI card in an (and i don't mean to push the subject) older PC. Still works, or at least it did when I last powered it up. But no easy way to read USB sticks or SD cards on it. -tony The XT-IDE ISA card is probably what you'll want. Though it doesn't "natively" support SD cards, there are IDE/CF adaptors to SD cards that can provide a means and ways of interfacing an older PC with modern media. ( https://users.glitchwrks.com/~glitch/xt-ide.html ) Anyway, you seem to truly have your heart set on the Greaseweasel. As long as you can write, or find, software that can turn the Weasels output into something useful, i'm sure it will suit your purposes fine. Of course, if you're archiving software froma truly unknown format, it will almost definitely be the best solutions. Getting useful data into and out of it is where the trouble will be. Good luck! Josh --===============6110000134909763333==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun May 28 14:54:56 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 15:54:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <74b192c1.1959d.18862cf0848.Webtop.110@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7126586321896367206==" --===============7126586321896367206== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm suprised to hear you're familliar with the GreaseWeasel but have > never heard of BlueSCSI. ( https://scsi.blue/ ). Though SASI > compatability seems "possible but not guaranteed", being an open source > project, you can probably wangle the existing PCB's/software to be SASI > compliant. More research, that i can leave you to perform, will probably > help with that endeavor. The only reason I've heard of the Greaseweazle is that it was recommended to me. I did ask at the start of this thread about other similar flux-transition interfaces but got no real information. On the grounds I could get a Greaseweazle easily, it was fairly inexpensive and it's open-source I've decided to give it a go. Still not managed to get the software working, which is probably down to the Windows installation on this machine. But I am going to take the adviceof some more knowledgeable friends before I change anything. I suspect that making a SASI-SD interface is something I could attempt myself. > Anyway, you seem to truly have your heart set on the Greaseweasel. As > long as you can write, or find, software that can turn the Weasels > output into something useful, i'm sure it will suit your purposes fine. > Of course, if you're archiving software froma truly unknown format, it > will almost definitely be the best solutions. Getting useful data into > and out of it is where the trouble will be. Most of my computers [1] use normal FM or MFM disks and I would hope the Greaseweazle software could handle that.If I can convert to/from a disk image file I can probably carry on on my own. One problem with the Greaseweazle is that there is no documentation. I would at least have expected the equivalent of a man page. Knowing what the options are, what it claims to be able to do, etc would be a good start! [1] I do have machines using GCR recording (Apple ][. Sirius (Victor 9000), etc). And M2FM (DEC RX02). And that odd double-density system used by Intel in the MDS800. But I can manage without being able to transfer to/from those, at least at the start. -tony > > Good luck! > > > Josh --===============7126586321896367206==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun May 28 15:12:23 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 16:12:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0797658258569715283==" --===============0797658258569715283== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > > Tony, > > An instrument slightly more to your taste than a PC might a 16500b logic > analyser. Perhaps you've already got one. I believe these can work with > both LIF and MSDOS floppies and uses an IDE HDD (which can painlessly be > replaced with CF card) in DOS format internally. I don't know if it will > handle other than 3.5" formats but it's quite possible that the support for > those formats is generic and it might work, given an appropriately mangled > hardware interface. Well, the hardware might be capable of doing other formats but it might not. Most if not all of the HP HPIB disk units are hardwired to be double density only, as is the HP4951C protocol analyser's internal disk controller and I could well believe a logic analyser would be the same. Standard PC floppy disks and all 3.5" LIF floppy disks are double density after all. In any case to handle other formats you'd have to do battle with the 16500's firmware whch I doubt is documented at that level. And I don't think schematics of the instrument exist anywhere, I believe the HP1630 was the last HP logic analyser to have schematics in the service manual (I do have one of those). If I want to do that much work I might as well make my own system from scratch. One problem with that (and a major plus-point of things like the Greaseweazle) is that traditional floppy disk controller ICs are either discontinued or at best EOL'ed. I don't like designing round parts that might not be available. -tony --===============0797658258569715283==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun May 28 15:36:07 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 08:35:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9138430781713165621==" --===============9138430781713165621== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/28/23 07:54, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> I'm suprised to hear you're familliar with the GreaseWeasel but have > Most of my computers [1] use normal FM or MFM disks and I would hope > the Greaseweazle software could handle that.If I can convert to/from a > disk image file I can probably carry on on my own. > > One problem with the Greaseweazle is that there is no documentation. I > would at least have expected the equivalent of a man page. Knowing > what the options are, what it claims to be able to do, etc would be a > good start! > > [1] I do have machines using GCR recording (Apple ][. Sirius (Victor > 9000), etc). And M2FM (DEC RX02). And that odd double-density system > used by Intel in the MDS800. But I can manage without being able to > transfer to/from those, at least at the start. All of these flux-transition gizmos, whether or not they're the Applesauce, Greaseweazle, Catweasel, Fluxengine, Deviceside.... work exactly the same way. A counter free-runs, and every time there's change in direction of magnetization on a disk, the value of the counter is sampled. The samples can be stored in memory, or send down a wire to a host computer. The index pulse is usually included in the sample. Microcontrollers are the natural choice for this, but you could implement the same in SSI TTL if push came to shove, provided that your design had the high-frequency headroom. Writing the data back is essentially an exercise in PWM. Again, a good fit for most microcontrollers. All the rest, as they say, is software. This is not the way a conventional floppy controller operates, since they hail from the bad old days of slower-speed logic. Much of the way they operate is encoded as a state machine in the form of specialized microcode. There is a fellow from Germany who managed program a PIC MCU (IIRC) to act as a floppy controller (read/write) for (at least) PC MFM floppies. I'll try to find the link in what I laughingly call my bookmarks, if anyone's interested. My feeling is that it was a "proof of concept" sort of thing and relied on some very tight loop code. --Chuck --===============9138430781713165621==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun May 28 15:45:43 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 16:45:25 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7836278131004697853==" --===============7836278131004697853== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 4:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > All of these flux-transition gizmos, whether or not they're the > Applesauce, Greaseweazle, Catweasel, Fluxengine, Deviceside.... work > exactly the same way. A counter free-runs, and every time there's > change in direction of magnetization on a disk, the value of the counter > is sampled. The samples can be stored in memory, or send down a wire to > a host computer. The index pulse is usually included in the sample. Sure, I understand that. But as I have no experience with such microcontrollers I am happy to let somebody else write the code. As for 'all working the same way, that does not mean I don't need documentation. The commands to the controlling software could be just about anything. > Microcontrollers are the natural choice for this, but you could > implement the same in SSI TTL if push came to shove, provided that your > design had the high-frequency headroom. It's not actually all that fast, at least not compared to some things I've worked with. Pulse rates around 1MHz or so. Yes you need to sample faster than that, but it's not a ridiculous rate. I guess that's why a simple microcontroller can do it in software. > > Writing the data back is essentially an exercise in PWM. Again, a good > fit for most microcontrollers. > > All the rest, as they say, is software. > > This is not the way a conventional floppy controller operates, since > they hail from the bad old days of slower-speed logic. Much of the way > they operate is encoded as a state machine in the form of specialized > microcode. In my much younger days I disassembled and commented the microcode in the RX02. And later the microcode in the HP11305 hard disk controller (which is similar in concept). They are elegantly written bits of tight code (as they have to be) but not that hard to understand (a lot harder to write!) -tony --===============7836278131004697853==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun May 28 16:34:59 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 09:34:43 -0700 Message-ID: <352b8168-f181-ee83-1ed0-7037e05afb78@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7729243686689149659==" --===============7729243686689149659== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/28/23 09:17, Tony Duell wrote: > I've come across the former and have the datasheets. From what I > recall it was common to use it a control store sequencer and have > microcode ROMs wider than the 8X300 needed, the extra bits were used > to directly control hardware. Power hog (well, it was bipolar) with a 3-bit opcode and a somewhat strange programming model. You could usually spot one by the 50 pin cerDIP and the external pass transistor. I think I still have a loose one in my hellbox--and at least two in old systems. --Chuck --===============7729243686689149659==-- From cruff@ruffspot.net Sun May 28 18:09:54 2023 From: Craig Ruff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Gb Ethernet and 10Mb links Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 11:46:02 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <168529320724.2847341.2278008942359130407@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7045429636938490418==" --===============7045429636938490418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI: The Ethernet standards dropped support for half duplex connections a few= years back, so that if you have something that depends on half duplex links = a recent Ethernet switch might not support it. --===============7045429636938490418==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Sun May 28 19:01:43 2023 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gb Ethernet and 10Mb links Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 15:01:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1730078536788775973==" --===============1730078536788775973== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I found that out the hard way recently when I acquired my AS/400 and the 10Mb/s card for it. It did not like talking to my 10/100/1000 switch at all. And of course I had recently gotten rid of my old 10Mb/s hub I had been saving for a couple of decades... Had to resort to eBay for an ancient hub. On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 2:09=E2=80=AFPM Craig Ruff via cctalk wrote: > FYI: The Ethernet standards dropped support for half duplex connections a > few years back, so that if you have something that depends on half duplex > links a recent Ethernet switch might not support it. --===============1730078536788775973==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun May 28 20:18:52 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gb Ethernet and 10Mb links Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 16:18:43 -0400 Message-ID: <98D696A8-F090-4D60-A640-AEC028AB45EB@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5876378817796883250==" --===============5876378817796883250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 28, 2023, at 1:46 PM, Craig Ruff via cctalk wrote: >=20 > FYI: The Ethernet standards dropped support for half duplex connections a f= ew years back, so that if you have something that depends on half duplex link= s a recent Ethernet switch might not support it. Dropped support for it on 10 Mb links? That seems like a crazy change to mak= e. I know it was defined but basically unused at higher speeds. paul --===============5876378817796883250==-- From cruff@ruffspot.net Sun May 28 20:58:46 2023 From: Craig Ruff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gb Ethernet and 10Mb links Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 14:58:29 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <98D696A8-F090-4D60-A640-AEC028AB45EB@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0711865499970116051==" --===============0711865499970116051== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 28, 2023, at 14:18, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 > Dropped support for it on 10 Mb links? That seems like a crazy change to m= ake. I know it was defined but basically unused at higher speeds. No just the half duplex part of the standard. The 10 Mb/s full duplex links a= re still supported.=20 --===============0711865499970116051==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sun May 28 21:50:11 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 22:49:54 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7805924916967376109==" --===============7805924916967376109== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 7:18=E2=80=AFAM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > > > Tony, I don't recall what became of the AT with 486 replacement > > processor that used to be your main home machine. ISTR it had loads of > > different floppy drives hung off it. Is it still functional / > repairable? > > Still works, or at least it did when I last powered it up. But no easy > way to read USB sticks or SD cards on it. > > -tony > That sounds too useful to give up on. What about using a gotek drive or similar to put a USB stick on the floppy bus, and/or one of the dos-based 3rd party IP stacks for ftp access ? --===============7805924916967376109==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Sun May 28 23:30:22 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gb Ethernet and 10Mb links Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 23:30:00 +0000 Message-ID: <1wTx8vXhtTUIe-mjhQmnq3Rlq0uWNtTyHVPxa_2ktCAhslZGSjsweUl8eYg1iA75CED1--vo9HrTyZ_ji7DUdmC0Dx3pxhZmYm1tEfkg5U4=@glitchwrks.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5075302549662843922==" --===============5075302549662843922== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Best thing to do is keep an old 10mbit switch or hub around with 100mbit or g= igabit uplink. Second best thing is to have a router that will talk 10mbit ha= lf duplex. I've also found some poorly behaved stuff that won't autonegotiate duplex eve= n with older switches, like my 3Com SuperStack II. Asante SCSI Ethernet adapt= ers come to mind. Had to set the duplex manually on the switch. Along those lines, 10gig copper interfaces often don't want to talk to 100mbi= t ports! Found that out when we had a switch fail and stuck an older 10/100 s= witch in just to get back up and running.=20 Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 13:46, Craig Ruff via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > FYI: The Ethernet standards dropped support for half duplex connections a f= ew years back, so that if you have something that depends on half duplex link= s a recent Ethernet switch might not support it. --===============5075302549662843922==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Mon May 29 18:03:20 2023 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gb Ethernet and 10Mb links Date: Mon, 29 May 2023 19:03:12 +0100 Message-ID: <4a982dcb-8eb2-df6b-b96a-3acda5dc04eb@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C1wTx8vXhtTUIe-mjhQmnq3Rlq0uWNtTyHVPxa=5F2ktCAhslZG?= =?utf-8?q?SjsweUl8eYg1iA75CED1--vo9HrTyZ=5Fji7DUdmC0Dx3pxhZmYm1tEfkg5U4=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1974895477105962654==" --===============1974895477105962654== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29/05/2023 00:30, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote > Along those lines, 10gig copper interfaces often don't want to talk to 100m= bit ports! Found that out when we had a switch fail and stuck an older 10/100= switch in just to get back up and running. I believe the 10Gb standard specifically prohibits autonegotiation, so=20 10G should not drop down to 1G or 100Mb/s. Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============1974895477105962654==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon May 29 22:49:08 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Anyone in or near Spain that can read 6250 GCR 9-track tape? Date: Mon, 29 May 2023 15:48:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7796315396336460143==" --===============7796315396336460143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I'd rather not put a customer through the throes of sending a 10.5" reel of tape written on a S/370 mainframe through international shipping. Anyone in the Barcelona area with the equipment and ability to handle reading this thing? Besides, I'm up to my ears in work. Thanks, Chuck --===============7796315396336460143==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Mon May 29 22:49:42 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gb Ethernet and 10Mb links Date: Mon, 29 May 2023 22:49:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4a982dcb-8eb2-df6b-b96a-3acda5dc04eb@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7289352028519394825==" --===============7289352028519394825== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I believe the 10Gb standard specifically prohibits autonegotiation, so > 10G should not drop down to 1G or 100Mb/s. It drops down to 1gig just fine, at least on everything I've tested. This is = of course over copper, not optical. Thanks, Jonathan --===============7289352028519394825==-- From jpstewart@personalprojects.net Mon May 29 23:34:58 2023 From: John-Paul Stewart To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gb Ethernet and 10Mb links Date: Mon, 29 May 2023 19:08:55 -0400 Message-ID: <8475a2c3-5b66-fbd5-b597-f0926f76d639@personalprojects.net> In-Reply-To: <4a982dcb-8eb2-df6b-b96a-3acda5dc04eb@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3089435369320611957==" --===============3089435369320611957== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/29/23 14:03, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I believe the 10Gb standard specifically prohibits autonegotiation, so > 10G should not drop down to 1G or 100Mb/s. Is that maybe only applicable to the 10G standards for optical fibre? According to Wikipedia 10GBASE-T supports autonegotiation: "10GBASE-T cable infrastructure can also be used for 1000BASE-T allowing a gradual upgrade from 1000BASE-T using autonegotiation to select which speed is used." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Gigabit_Ethernet#10GBASE-T "The autonegotiation specification was improved in the 1998 release of IEEE 802.3. This was followed by the release of the IEEE 802.3ab Gigabit Ethernet standard in 1999 which specified mandatory autonegotiation for 1000BASE-T. Autonegotiation is also mandatory for 1000BASE-TX and 10GBASE-T implementations." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonegotiation#Standardization_and_interoperab= ility --===============3089435369320611957==-- From plamenspam@afterpeople.com Tue May 30 08:11:38 2023 From: Plamen Mihaylov To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone in or near Spain that can read 6250 GCR 9-track tape? Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 11:11:20 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2282005901128644013==" --===============2282005901128644013== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you find someone within Europe let me know. I have some VSE 9track tapes, which can not be read with HP 7978B On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 1:49 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > List, > > I'd rather not put a customer through the throes of sending a 10.5" reel > of tape written on a S/370 mainframe through international shipping. > > Anyone in the Barcelona area with the equipment and ability to handle > reading this thing? Besides, I'm up to my ears in work. > > Thanks, > Chuck > --===============2282005901128644013==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Tue May 30 10:18:25 2023 From: nico de jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone in or near Spain that can read 6250 GCR 9-track tape? Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 11:59:29 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8260803253681351469==" --===============8260803253681351469== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have some tapedrives on our conversion system. M4 and Qualstar. Please mail me directly if you are interested Regards Nico de Jong www.datamuseum.dk On 2023-05-30 00:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > List, > > I'd rather not put a customer through the throes of sending a 10.5" reel > of tape written on a S/370 mainframe through international shipping. > > Anyone in the Barcelona area with the equipment and ability to handle > reading this thing? Besides, I'm up to my ears in work. > > Thanks, > Chuck --===============8260803253681351469==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue May 30 10:30:54 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 12:30:35 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00d901d98f49$9687b140$c39713c0$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0825397437990323142==" --===============0825397437990323142== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 25 May 2023, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I am thinking I may put it back together and test with a light bulb in > series. SMPUs don't like that, and don't even try a variable transformers. Christian --===============0825397437990323142==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Tue May 30 10:33:37 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 12:33:19 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2783311083318084904==" --===============2783311083318084904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What can/will go wrong in either case, and why? Ulli Am Di., 30. Mai 2023 um 12:30 Uhr schrieb Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > On Thu, 25 May 2023, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I am thinking I may put it back together and test with a light bulb in > > series. > > SMPUs don't like that, and don't even try a variable transformers. > > Christian > --===============2783311083318084904==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue May 30 10:41:47 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 11:41:25 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4036683937762335336==" --===============4036683937762335336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 11:33 AM Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk wrote: > > What can/will go wrong in either case, and why? The normally-given reason is that an SMPSU approximates to being a constant power load and draws more current if the input voltage is reduced. This can cause the chopper transistor to fail from having to handle too high a current. That said, I have run many, many SMPSUs with a light bulb in series with the mains input and had no problems at all. I run them with a minimal load (say 1A on the 5V line, so 5W power going there) and put, say, a 100W filament bulb in series with the mains. The voltage drop across the latter is <20V (I've measured it), given the local mains here is around 240V, that means the input to the SMPSU is well within the acceptable voltage range. And while the seres bulb probably won't save the chopper transistor if things go seriously wrong on the primary side of the supply, it probably will save the bridge rectifier, expensive fast-acting fuse and PCB tracks. Not to mention my nerves. -tony --===============4036683937762335336==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Tue May 30 11:22:06 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 12:21:49 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2990023316405220095==" --===============2990023316405220095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 11:30 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > SMPUs don't like that, and don't even try a variable transformers. > > In the 80s, i worked for a company making just-pre-PC 8086 machines. We manufactured the SMPSU in-house, designed by a specialist company. I was involved in training the technicians to repair them and built a debug rig with the designer's advice. This may not apply to all SMPUs but worked well for that design, which was fairly conventional. There was an isolation transformer followed by a variac. The procedure was to slowly bring up the variac until the control circuit was functioning, check the waveforms around that, and then increase the supply voltage while watching the chopper, control and output signals. This allowed the chopper to work at low current limited by the circuit resistance and slowly increase with supply voltage until the control circuit backed it off (which would happen quite quickly with no output load). I agree that low input voltage with a loaded output will stress the supply but done carefully as above it should be possible. I didn't use a lamp, but the idea there is that the maximum current in the case of a short is limited to lamp current rather than fuse current. I wouldn't do this with much of a load, but it's more likely to kill the chopper due to dissipation rather than peak current since it's rated to chop the full input DC rail into the transformer. Abuse might cause higher frequency cycling or longer on-time but shouldn't increase peak current. I'm happy to learn if I'm missing another mechanism. --===============2990023316405220095==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue May 30 13:11:50 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rainbow H7842 PSU Fault Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 14:11:34 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8358981214650402452==" --===============8358981214650402452== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:22 PM Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > > There was an isolation transformer followed by a variac. The procedure was > to slowly bring up the variac until the control circuit was functioning, > check the waveforms around that, and then increase the supply voltage while > watching the chopper, control and output signals. This allowed the chopper > to work at low current limited by the circuit resistance and slowly > increase with supply voltage until the control circuit backed it off (which > would happen quite quickly with no output load). I don't normally use a Variac when repairing SMPSUs but I've seen diagnostic procedures in official HP (etc) service manuals which tell you to use such a device to increase the input voltage to the supply. In some cases the the control circuit is separately powered and gets the full voltage all the time, you just vary the input voltage to the chopper circuit. I would assume that an HP service manual of that vintage gave a sensible procedure for that particular design of SMPSU. -tony --===============8358981214650402452==-- From philip@axeside.co.uk Tue May 30 16:09:25 2023 From: philip@axeside.co.uk To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 17:09:17 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6617524196964322016==" --===============6617524196964322016== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Tony, I don't recall what became of the AT with 486 replacement >> processor that used to be your main home machine. ISTR it had loads of >> different floppy drives hung off it. Is it still functional / repairable? > Still works, or at least it did when I last powered it up. But no easy > way to read USB sticks or SD cards on it. > > -tony I wasn't trying to solve the whole problem at once! A lot of people have recommended "sneakernet" to connect your modern laptop to an older machine with drives hung off it.  I was wondering about the latter half of this - what might be the older machine with the drives.  I think that AT would be a good choice. In which case we can move on to the former - what you are physically carrying from machine to machine. I still think a SCSI drive is a possibility.  You seem to be considering an SD card.  Some have suggested CF cards, with which I'm not familiar.  For that matter, whatever became of PCMCIA cards?  How big did they get anyway? Philip. --===============6617524196964322016==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue May 30 16:37:47 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 17:37:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3712436932175090862==" --===============3712436932175090862== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:09 PM philip--- via cctalk wrote: > > I wasn't trying to solve the whole problem at once! > > A lot of people have recommended "sneakernet" to connect your modern That's an expression which always sounds odd to me. The footwear known as 'sneakers' across the Pond is, I believe, called 'trainers' here. But (a) on this list I'll use 'trainer' to refer to one of the microprocessor evaluation/learning systems and (b) I've never owned such shoes and nor do I intend to. > laptop to an older machine with drives hung off it. I was wondering > about the latter half of this - what might be the older machine with the > drives. I think that AT would be a good choice. Actually, I think the AT is not the best choice for this. I don't think the disk controller I currently have in the machine handles single density correctly. And of course it only supports 2 drives, currently 80 cylinder 5.25 and 3.5" ones. A better choice might be my TRS-80 model 4. That disk controller certainly handles single density, although it won't handle the high density data rates used on 1.2M and 1.4M PC disks and 8" floppies. It's also a Western Digital controller chip which I much prefer to Intel-esque ones.I do have a hard disk on it too -- a 3rd party unit badged 'Cumana' > > In which case we can move on to the former - what you are physically > carrying from machine to machine. > > I still think a SCSI drive is a possibility. You seem to be considering > an SD card. Some have suggested CF cards, with which I'm not familiar. > For that matter, whatever became of PCMCIA cards? How big did they get > anyway? The size shouldn't be a problem Assuming I am transfering a disk image to write to a floppy, it shouldn't be much larger than the capacity of that floppy. 1MByte should be enough. -tony --===============3712436932175090862==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 30 17:08:46 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 10:08:29 -0700 Message-ID: <1bd2dd83-9896-288f-3c8d-a0e421e75ef5@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7868608156819534446==" --===============7868608156819534446== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still impressed that I can spend USD$3 for a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life and still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs. --Chuck --===============7868608156819534446==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue May 30 17:23:09 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 12:22:53 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1bd2dd83-9896-288f-3c8d-a0e421e75ef5@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1328695342348160972==" --===============1328695342348160972== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write the drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code, binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill half of that disk. A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now. Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more storage needs 😁? On 5/30/2023 12:08 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > "Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still impressed that I can spend USD$3 for > a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life and > still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs. > > --Chuck > > --===============1328695342348160972==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue May 30 18:09:25 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 14:09:17 -0400 Message-ID: <287445D6-42B5-4B05-BC63-EC80F2B563F9@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8267012619501815012==" --===============8267012619501815012== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 30, 2023, at 1:22 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write the= drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code, binaries= , executable, applications and the operating system and not fill half of that= disk. >=20 > A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now. >=20 > Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more stora= ge needs =F0=9F=98=81? Yes. We used to call that the "virtual disease" in honor of the fact that VMS appl= ications tended to be 5x or 10x the size of PDP-11 applications that do simil= ar things. As a result, developing for both by wring it for VMS and then bac= kporting to PDP-11 tended to give terminally bad performance, while going the= other way worked quite well. ("KOALA" which I'm not sure ever shipped, comes= to mind as an example of the former.) Disk drive growth is pretty amazing. My first hard drive was 256 kB (an RC-1= 1, on the college physics department PDP-11/20 in 1973). Amd even the big ha= rd drives on the main timesharing system weren't that much bigger (2.4 MB eac= h, a pair of RK05s). paul --===============8267012619501815012==-- From cube1@charter.net Tue May 30 18:12:56 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Continental 50 Pin connector vs. AMP 200276 50 pin connector - same? Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 13:12:52 -0500 Message-ID: <2efe802d-1963-fe83-6044-0d6f03fc5ac4@charter.net> In-Reply-To: <426213E3-E430-4A17-9BB4-D1B5A7CEA4B4@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0841061206012644225==" --===============0841061206012644225== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/15/2023 12:36 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >=20 > If it's of any help though, on my 2748 connector (the cord-plug-in end) the= male pin diameter is 0.061 ~ 0.062" (measured with a cheap micrometer, perha= ps the actual spec is 1/16=3D0.0625). >=20 > I understand the confusion - I have on hand 3 different examples of ~0.062"= dia. male pins. Cursorily they look the same and plug into the same female p= in, but are different in length and in the shoulder-housing-insert area. Then= there are similar-looking pins that are ~0.040" diameter, which may be what = you acquired. >=20 > These kind of look like they might be the 0.062 diameter: >=20 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/115573632341 >=20 > whereas these look like they could be the 0.040 diameter: >=20 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/115573630849 >=20 > But then you have to watch out to be getting the correct type of pin for th= e housing one is using, for as stated above they can differ in that section o= f the pin even though of the same mating diameter. >=20 Just for completeness, for the AMP connector (200276-4) on which the=20 pins are just a bit to small, the pins measure at .055" - close, but no=20 cigar. (1.4mm). JRJ --===============0841061206012644225==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue May 30 18:25:16 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 13:25:03 -0500 Message-ID: <80895337-84e8-9ba6-8ef3-a043b11549aa@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <287445D6-42B5-4B05-BC63-EC80F2B563F9@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8087567215721132831==" --===============8087567215721132831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No to mention the 32K 12 bit word (48k Byte) DF-32 fixed head hard disk. 16 Data tracks, 4 control tracks. 2048 bytes/track 10" disk (1/4" thick) 1100 BPI 50 LBS On 5/30/2023 1:09 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On May 30, 2023, at 1:22 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write th= e drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code, binarie= s, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill half of tha= t disk. >> >> A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now. >> >> Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more stor= age needs =F0=9F=98=81? > Yes. > > We used to call that the "virtual disease" in honor of the fact that VMS ap= plications tended to be 5x or 10x the size of PDP-11 applications that do sim= ilar things. As a result, developing for both by wring it for VMS and then b= ackporting to PDP-11 tended to give terminally bad performance, while going t= he other way worked quite well. ("KOALA" which I'm not sure ever shipped, com= es to mind as an example of the former.) > > Disk drive growth is pretty amazing. My first hard drive was 256 kB (an RC= -11, on the college physics department PDP-11/20 in 1973). Amd even the big = hard drives on the main timesharing system weren't that much bigger (2.4 MB e= ach, a pair of RK05s). > > paul > > --===============8087567215721132831==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Tue May 30 18:43:29 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 14:43:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1bd2dd83-9896-288f-3c8d-a0e421e75ef5@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1244391779144021247==" --===============1244391779144021247== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-05-30 13:08, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > "Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still impressed that I can spend USD$3 for > a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life I was looking for some files on my backup tapes, wondering if I have enough space on my drives to simply copy the tape to the disk, and then search. Finally hit me, that my DOS disk from back than was only 300MB :) > and > still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs. Look at it from the other side: you need two RL02s for a decent resolution picture of your dog this days :) --===============1244391779144021247==-- From jlw@jlw.com Tue May 30 18:55:57 2023 From: Jeff Woolsey To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 11:49:48 -0700 Message-ID: <2877fd3f-32cd-d4c4-ddc8-3853b03128d2@jlw.com> In-Reply-To: <1bd2dd83-9896-288f-3c8d-a0e421e75ef5@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4294393690995253101==" --===============4294393690995253101== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/30/23 10:08 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > "Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still impressed that I can spend USD$3 for > a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life and > still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs. > > --Chuck No kidding.  That 64GB fingernail can easily hide in clothing, almost making it disposable.  My favorite metric is how many copies of spinning rust at the entire computer center that  I worked at in 1980 could be stored on that card.  It's probably more than 10.  If you add hanging rust (magtape) the factor drops considerably, but it's likely still over unity.  Certainly for a 1TB SSD... I'm also amazed that I can put together a still reasonably impressive 14-year-old MacBook Pro for < $100.  That's $40 for the empty laptop as-is at a flea market, ~$15 for 8GB RAM, ~$45 for 960GB SSD.  I lucked out in that there was nothing wrong with the laptop. -- Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire --===============4294393690995253101==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 30 18:58:23 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 12:57:56 -0600 Message-ID: <283a19a7-937d-0aa1-b415-c9280a3807e9@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <1bd2dd83-9896-288f-3c8d-a0e421e75ef5@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0521648780951185703==" --===============0521648780951185703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-05-30 11:08 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > "Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still impressed that I can spend USD$3 for > a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life and > still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs. > > --Chuck > ... until it gets swallowed by the gold fish. Ben. --===============0521648780951185703==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue May 30 18:59:48 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 19:59:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2877fd3f-32cd-d4c4-ddc8-3853b03128d2@jlw.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8676927924935256167==" --===============8676927924935256167== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 19:56, Jeff Woolsey via cctalk wrote: > > I'm also amazed that I can put together a still reasonably impressive > 14-year-old MacBook Pro for < $100. That's $40 for the empty laptop > as-is at a flea market, ~$15 for 8GB RAM, ~$45 for 960GB SSD. I lucked > out in that there was nothing wrong with the laptop. My 2009 13" MBP was free, and that was in Czechia, not a rich land. Dead HDD. I put a spare in, installed a new copy of the latest OS, and after over 2 hours and dozens of reboots and several firmware updates, had a working Macbook. I copied the HDD onto an old SSD a friend gave me, and it was still in use til we left the country. Battery lasted a couple of hours, too. I'm currently working on Hackintoshing a newer laptop for my partner to use... -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8676927924935256167==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 30 19:00:02 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 11:59:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8922924359796422634==" --===============8922924359796422634== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:37=E2=80=AFAM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:09=E2=80=AFPM philip--- via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I wasn't trying to solve the whole problem at once! > > > > A lot of people have recommended "sneakernet" to connect your modern > > That's an expression which always sounds odd to me. The footwear known > as 'sneakers' across the Pond is, I believe, called 'trainers' here. > But (a) on this list I'll use 'trainer' to refer to one of the > microprocessor evaluation/learning systems and (b) I've never owned > such shoes and nor do I intend to. > Tony can't transfer data from one computer to another via removable magnetic media because he doesn't own the required footwear. Sellam --===============8922924359796422634==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue May 30 19:05:46 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 12:05:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <287445D6-42B5-4B05-BC63-EC80F2B563F9@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1258977513302138046==" --===============1258977513302138046== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 11:09=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On May 30, 2023, at 1:22 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: > > > > In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write > the drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code, > binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill > half of that disk. > > > > A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now. > > > > Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more > storage needs =F0=9F=98=81? > > Yes. > > We used to call that the "virtual disease" in honor of the fact that VMS > applications tended to be 5x or 10x the size of PDP-11 applications that do > similar things. As a result, developing for both by wring it for VMS and > then backporting to PDP-11 tended to give terminally bad performance, while > going the other way worked quite well. ("KOALA" which I'm not sure ever > shipped, comes to mind as an example of the former.) > > Disk drive growth is pretty amazing. My first hard drive was 256 kB (an > RC-11, on the college physics department PDP-11/20 in 1973). Amd even the > big hard drives on the main timesharing system weren't that much bigger > (2.4 MB each, a pair of RK05s). > Microschlock overcame the problem of its shitty code by taking advantage of Moore's Law: your computer is slow? It's not our software, you just don't have enough memory. But it didn't matter how much you increased your memory or hard drive space, Microsoft would just fill it up, needlessly. And then blame you when you didn't upgrade your hardware. Again. Sellam --===============1258977513302138046==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 30 19:05:53 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 13:05:47 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1361422892555943285==" --===============1361422892555943285== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-05-30 12:43 p.m., emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-05-30 13:08, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> "Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still impressed that I can spend USD$3 for >> a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life > > I was looking for some files on my backup tapes, wondering if I have > enough space on my drives to simply copy the tape to the disk, and then > search. Finally hit me, that my DOS disk from back than was only 300MB :) > >> and >> still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs. > > Look at it from the other side: you need two RL02s for a decent > resolution picture of your dog this days :) > And from this side, playing my Japanese game, every so often in town a dog blocks your path until you pet it. 18GB of game. Ben. PS. You have to feed the cat a fish. :) --===============1361422892555943285==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue May 30 19:11:29 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 14:11:10 -0500 Message-ID: <8decdb80-b2f6-e1f2-70d3-348b036f76ba@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1418379224328274363==" --===============1418379224328274363== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit /Look at it from the other side: you need two RL02s for a decent resolution picture of your dog this days :) / That's two 10.5" platters to store in decent size digital picture!!!! Each RL02 Platter is: Sides:                              2 Tracks:                            512 TPI:                                 256 Sectors/Track:               40 Bytes/Sector:                256 Formatted Capacity:    10.4 MB Who would ever need 10 megabytes of information???? Just for reference that's approx 16.5 miles of paper tape😲 --===============1418379224328274363==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue May 30 19:11:38 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 12:11:26 -0700 Message-ID: <4048e945-7cb2-5f1d-4fe0-117fa5c729a5@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <283a19a7-937d-0aa1-b415-c9280a3807e9@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6030707133382798349==" --===============6030707133382798349== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/30/23 11:57, ben via cctalk wrote: > ... until it gets swallowed by the gold fish. Or in my case, one of the dogs. I had one of those tiny chips slip between two panels in my workstation. Haven't retrieved it yet, but then it was "only" 16GB... --===============6030707133382798349==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed May 31 01:46:03 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 18:41:00 -0700 Message-ID: <008001d99360$f4c95900$de5c0b00$@net> In-Reply-To: <2877fd3f-32cd-d4c4-ddc8-3853b03128d2@jlw.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9055957350950001538==" --===============9055957350950001538== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > No kidding. That 64GB fingernail can easily hide in clothing Or make it easily edible... Say if you were munching on some nuts while waiti= ng... Ask me how I know.... *sigh* -Ali --===============9055957350950001538==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 31 01:56:31 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 18:56:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <008001d99360$f4c95900$de5c0b00$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3786713714531149768==" --===============3786713714531149768== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> No kidding. That 64GB fingernail can easily hide in clothing On Tue, 30 May 2023, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Or make it easily edible... Say if you were munching on some nuts while wai= ting... Ask me how I know.... *sigh* I heard that Duracell now has a "bitterant" coating on its 2032 batteries;=20 so that you will spit it out. --===============3786713714531149768==-- From lyokoboy0@gmail.com Wed May 31 01:57:53 2023 From: devin davison To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Identify these drive read heads pdp11 related? Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 21:57:35 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0010009514952231893==" --===============0010009514952231893== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I picked up boxes of these disk heads when i picked up a warehouse stockpile of pdp 11 computers. Any idea what they are to? I want to say floppy? I have 2 different types of heads, in boxes. Please see pics, and if anyone needs heads, im the guy that has a bunch to part with now. Let me know what kind of drive they are for if you can, i have no clue. https://i.postimg.cc/nrHTdwcV/20230528-182840.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/y8JjrRBR/20230528-182834.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/sfcTBywM/20230528-182821.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/2y2GgFVQ/20230528-182809.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/4N2w5PCZ/20230528-182617.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/W1Q8R4bH/20230528-182614.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/28S2hJK2/20230528-182606.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/25hwCf18/20230528-182555.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/DZ3xGw9X/20230528-182543.jpg --===============0010009514952231893==-- From rick@rickmurphy.net Wed May 31 02:49:45 2023 From: Rick Murphy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify these drive read heads pdp11 related? Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 22:42:48 -0400 Message-ID: <19e75cf9-66aa-788d-422d-23fa6b607521@rickmurphy.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5483636168100446794==" --===============5483636168100446794== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/30/2023 9:57 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > I picked up boxes of these disk heads when i picked up a warehouse > stockpile of pdp 11 computers. > > Any idea what they are to? I want to say floppy? I have 2 different types > of heads, in boxes. Please see pics, and if anyone needs heads, im the guy > that has a bunch to part with now. > > Let me know what kind of drive they are for if you can, i have no clue. Looks like RK05 heads to me. They have the right connector and tailpiece.     -Rick --===============5483636168100446794==-- From lyokoboy0@gmail.com Wed May 31 03:11:22 2023 From: devin davison To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify these drive read heads pdp11 related? Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 23:11:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19e75cf9-66aa-788d-422d-23fa6b607521@rickmurphy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6502081855777606517==" --===============6502081855777606517== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That would make sense, as I picked up 3 RK05 drives in the lot. Good to know what they go to now, perhaps i can sell some off to others that need them, and offset the cost of the pickup Thank you for the quick reply --Devin D. On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 10:49 PM Rick Murphy via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 5/30/2023 9:57 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > I picked up boxes of these disk heads when i picked up a warehouse > > stockpile of pdp 11 computers. > > > > Any idea what they are to? I want to say floppy? I have 2 different types > > of heads, in boxes. Please see pics, and if anyone needs heads, im the > guy > > that has a bunch to part with now. > > > > Let me know what kind of drive they are for if you can, i have no clue. > > Looks like RK05 heads to me. They have the right connector and tailpiece. > -Rick > > --===============6502081855777606517==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Wed May 31 05:08:12 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify these drive read heads pdp11 related? Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 23:58:42 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6165047992825264697==" --===============6165047992825264697== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All of them are for various hard drives.  None floppy of any sort. The first 4, 2840, 34, 21, and 09 all look like ones I'd use on a Western Dynex either 5mb or 10mb (capacity) drive.  100tpi or 200tpi. The others are progressively higher density, someone else may recognize them.  Epay periodically has some guy listing them for high prices, and though I'd never pay what he wants if you can find his listings, they might be a good reference if noone else here turns up with an answer. From the ages of the guys I knew in the 70s and 80s that serviced these, and their disposition of working on the hardware, they're probably all mid 70s, and not paying much attention to this sort of thing anymore.  They certainly knew the subject well, the ones I knew. A fellow I knew ran AHMCO  (After Hours Maintenance, Company), which was well named, as when does this crap fail.  anyway, hopefully someone has either memory or knowledge of these. I've got a few sets for my older Microdata Marathons, and Dynex drives in similar packaging. On a side note from my experience, wish more companies had used the pink plastic for bagging boards, and this foam, as I've not seen any of it broken down like many types of foam.  And I'm talking about Los Angeles air, which kills anything plastic with ozone. thanks Jim On 5/30/23 20:57, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > I picked up boxes of these disk heads when i picked up a warehouse > stockpile of pdp 11 computers. > > Any idea what they are to? I want to say floppy? I have 2 different types > of heads, in boxes. Please see pics, and if anyone needs heads, im the guy > that has a bunch to part with now. > > Let me know what kind of drive they are for if you can, i have no clue. > > https://i.postimg.cc/nrHTdwcV/20230528-182840.jpg > > > https://i.postimg.cc/y8JjrRBR/20230528-182834.jpg > > https://i.postimg.cc/sfcTBywM/20230528-182821.jpg > > https://i.postimg.cc/2y2GgFVQ/20230528-182809.jpg > > https://i.postimg.cc/4N2w5PCZ/20230528-182617.jpg > > https://i.postimg.cc/W1Q8R4bH/20230528-182614.jpg > > https://i.postimg.cc/28S2hJK2/20230528-182606.jpg > > https://i.postimg.cc/25hwCf18/20230528-182555.jpg > > https://i.postimg.cc/DZ3xGw9X/20230528-182543.jpg --===============6165047992825264697==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed May 31 05:19:09 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 22:19:10 -0700 Message-ID: <00ba01d9937f$6f7b9500$4e72bf00$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2236284518719818721==" --===============2236284518719818721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I heard that Duracell now has a "bitterant" coating on its 2032 > batteries; > so that you will spit it out. Fred, That's been there for a while. It is aimed at babies swallowing coin batteries of all sorts. Mine was pure stupidity. I had spent the whole weekend working on and rebuilding the image on an RPi that I use for a DNS server. I took out the Micro-SD card with the plans to image it for backup. I was munching on a bowl of nuts, tossing them back as it were, while I checked a few last minute things and suddenly I hear a non-nutty crunch. Spit it out and there is a tooth mark right through the Micro-SD. Apparently what I thought was a pistachio was my Micro-SD card. Suffice to say it was no longer working and I had no backup. Choice expletives were spewed throughout that day.... LOL -Ali --===============2236284518719818721==-- From plamenspam@afterpeople.com Wed May 31 08:58:49 2023 From: Plamen Mihaylov To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone in or near Spain that can read 6250 GCR 9-track tape? Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 11:58:32 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7340843056413937352==" --===============7340843056413937352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I would like to send you the tapes for dumping ( please provide me with your mailing details ), is it possible to send them back after this ? Best regards, Plamen On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 1:18 PM nico de jong via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > We have some tapedrives on our conversion system. M4 and Qualstar. > Please mail me directly if you are interested > Regards > Nico de Jong > www.datamuseum.dk > > > On 2023-05-30 00:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > List, > > > > I'd rather not put a customer through the throes of sending a 10.5" reel > > of tape written on a S/370 mainframe through international shipping. > > > > Anyone in the Barcelona area with the equipment and ability to handle > > reading this thing? Besides, I'm up to my ears in work. > > > > Thanks, > > Chuck > > > --===============7340843056413937352==-- From rick@rickmurphy.net Wed May 31 10:38:27 2023 From: Rick Murphy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identify these drive read heads pdp11 related? Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 06:38:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0228998961440027384==" --===============0228998961440027384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/30/2023 11:11 PM, devin davison wrote: > That would make sense, as I picked up 3 RK05 drives in the lot. Having looked at the entire set, just the first few are RK05 heads. Rectangular white plug, and a metal shaft tail. I didn't initially look at the full set and they're obviously from different drives.    -Rick --===============0228998961440027384==-- From john@yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed May 31 11:25:48 2023 From: John Many Jars To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Turbo 3.0 Command Line Compiler Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 12:25:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6917443287982658116==" --===============6917443287982658116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't normally beg for help, but I'm going to beg for help, because this would be really useful if I could get it to work. This guy: TURBO PASCAL (mark-ogden.uk) Has posted .MAC files that supposedly build a command line version of Turbo Pascal that lacks the editor, which would be really nice as I use RunCPM and an external editor to work on Turbo Pascal 3 for CP/M I've tried building and linking this with M80 and L80, and it doesn't seem to work. I really don't remember what I'm doing with these tools, which I haven't used for 30 years. More probably. I'm not sure if the author is even still alive, and I have no contact details for him...as this is a mirror of an old page. Anyone got any ideas? I'll buy you a beer if you meet me someplace in England. Thanks, Mark (aka John) --===============6917443287982658116==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Wed May 31 13:36:18 2023 From: nico de jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Anyone in or near Spain that can read 6250 GCR 9-track tape? Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 15:28:49 +0200 Message-ID: <20eaa495-b436-f7fb-a731-e15eb1f54b17@farumdata.dk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2965671531560432030==" --===============2965671531560432030== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Privat mail sent /Nico On 2023-05-31 10:58, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > I would like to send you the tapes for dumping ( please provide me with > your mailing details ), is it possible to send them back after this ? > > Best regards, > Plamen > > > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 1:18 PM nico de jong via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> We have some tapedrives on our conversion system. M4 and Qualstar. >> Please mail me directly if you are interested >> Regards >> Nico de Jong >> www.datamuseum.dk >> >> >> On 2023-05-30 00:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> List, >>> >>> I'd rather not put a customer through the throes of sending a 10.5" reel >>> of tape written on a S/370 mainframe through international shipping. >>> >>> Anyone in the Barcelona area with the equipment and ability to handle >>> reading this thing? Besides, I'm up to my ears in work. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Chuck >> >> --===============2965671531560432030==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed May 31 15:27:31 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo 3.0 Command Line Compiler Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 10:27:26 -0500 Message-ID: <07f41b55-9d1b-4ac2-0078-4b79cd032cee@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3594795591504906494==" --===============3594795591504906494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/31/23 06:25, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > I don't normally beg for help, but I'm going to beg for help, because this > would be really useful if I could get it to work. > > This guy: > > TURBO PASCAL (mark-ogden.uk) > > > Has posted .MAC files that supposedly build a command line version of Turbo > Pascal that lacks the editor, which would be really nice as I use RunCPM > and an external editor to work on Turbo Pascal 3 for CP/M > Well, this doesn't directly answer your question, but a few=20 years ago I resurrected a pretty complex Turbo Pascal=20 program that I used to run on Win 95 and Win 2K. I used Linux and the Free Pascal Compiler (FPC) and it did=20 an amazing job of correctly handling all the Borland=20 extensions (uses, unit, interface, $define, etc). Jon --===============3594795591504906494==-- From john@yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed May 31 15:37:54 2023 From: John Many Jars To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Turbo 3.0 Command Line Compiler Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 16:37:34 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <07f41b55-9d1b-4ac2-0078-4b79cd032cee@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8696547177283123854==" --===============8696547177283123854== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 May 2023 at 16:27, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > \Well, this doesn't directly answer your question, but a few > years ago I resurrected a pretty complex Turbo Pascal > program that I used to run on Win 95 and Win 2K. > > I used Linux and the Free Pascal Compiler (FPC) and it did > an amazing job of correctly handling all the Borland > extensions (uses, unit, interface, $define, etc). > > Jon > > Thanks Jon, I got it fixed, thanks to Mr. Buckle. I was trying to assemble it under RunCPM, but for some reason, it didn't like that. When I did under z80pack, it worked just fine. Well, kind of fine. The guy who did this seems to have patched it to like running on an Amstrad CPC, so if you use GotoXY it doesn't work. I just wrote my own... Take Care, Mark -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift --===============8696547177283123854==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 31 18:22:14 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 12:22:00 -0600 Message-ID: <309454cf-a4ff-1dd0-6c1d-d18ac90ce793@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <00ba01d9937f$6f7b9500$4e72bf00$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3127775554936621662==" --===============3127775554936621662== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-05-30 11:19 p.m., Ali via cctalk wrote: >> I heard that Duracell now has a "bitterant" coating on its 2032 >> batteries; >> so that you will spit it out. > > Fred, > > That's been there for a while. It is aimed at babies swallowing coin > batteries of all sorts. Mine was pure stupidity. I had spent the whole > weekend working on and rebuilding the image on an RPi that I use for a DNS > server. I took out the Micro-SD card with the plans to image it for backup. > I was munching on a bowl of nuts, tossing them back as it were, while I > checked a few last minute things and suddenly I hear a non-nutty crunch. > Spit it out and there is a tooth mark right through the Micro-SD. Apparently > what I thought was a pistachio was my Micro-SD card. Suffice to say it was > no longer working and I had no backup. Choice expletives were spewed > throughout that day.... LOL > > -Ali > AH! NUTS! :) Runs and ducks... --===============3127775554936621662==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Wed May 31 20:05:26 2023 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 21:52:18 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6630370235725097547==" --===============6630370235725097547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:22:53PM -0500, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write the > drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code, > binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill > half of that disk. A the first computer science class in school (very early 90s) our teacher held up a 3.5" 1.44M floppy and told us that "this can hold all you'll ever write" ... well, that aged worse than fresh milk ;-) > A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now. Indeed. The camera archive (2 people shooting DSLRs - strictly as a hobby, not professionals) here is at 1.5T now here and of course only ever growing. Even the compressed archive of my diploma thesis (written in LaTeX, as one does - so no bloated MS Word files) won't fit on a 1.44M floppy at 1.9M in size and that happened not that many years after the above overly optimistic statement. And anybody doing _any_ amount of programming outside of ones job surely has written way more source code than would ever fit on a 1.44M floppy, even after LZ4 compression. I know I did and I don't get to write much code these days. > Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more > storage needs 😁? "Too much storage capacity" is a thing that fundamentally cannot exist, data grows to fill available storage capacity eventually (and usually much sooner than one likes). ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============6630370235725097547==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 31 20:14:43 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 14:14:21 -0600 Message-ID: <4ba0f891-d084-88e0-f071-2646f666d1b3@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1888262753953243440==" --===============1888262753953243440== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-05-31 1:52 p.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:22:53PM -0500, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write the >> drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code, >> binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill >> half of that disk. > > A the first computer science class in school (very early 90s) our teacher > held up a 3.5" 1.44M floppy and told us that "this can hold all you'll > ever write" ... well, that aged worse than fresh milk ;-) > Looking at a BYTE from 1983, there was a Japanese 3 inch floppy, 500K raw. That must of lasted as long as the ad. > Kind regards, > Alex. Ben. --===============1888262753953243440==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 31 20:33:01 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 13:32:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8910752820924534718==" --===============8910752820924534718== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 May 2023, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > "Too much storage capacity" is a thing that fundamentally cannot exist, > data grows to fill available storage capacity eventually (and usually > much sooner than one likes). ;-) Data will expand to fill slightly more than all available storage capacity. - Boyle's law MICROS~1 works hard to make sure that their "requirements" keep up with Moore's law. After Moore's death, will his law continue to be enforced? --===============8910752820924534718==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed May 31 20:34:08 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 15:33:58 -0500 Message-ID: <26e8c714-cfba-21ec-65f9-5da819038607@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1195617506279658856==" --===============1195617506279658856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for comparison: 1K            102.4" 10K          85' 100K        853' 1M           1.6 Miles 10M         16.5 Miles 100M       165 Miles 1G            1,695 Miles 10G          16,947 Miles 100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences 1T             69.8 Earth Circumferences On 5/31/2023 2:52 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:22:53PM -0500, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write the >> drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code, >> binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill >> half of that disk. > A the first computer science class in school (very early 90s) our teacher > held up a 3.5" 1.44M floppy and told us that "this can hold all you'll > ever write" ... well, that aged worse than fresh milk ;-) > >> A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now. > Indeed. The camera archive (2 people shooting DSLRs - strictly as a hobby, > not professionals) here is at 1.5T now here and of course only ever growing. > > Even the compressed archive of my diploma thesis (written in LaTeX, > as one does - so no bloated MS Word files) won't fit on a 1.44M floppy > at 1.9M in size and that happened not that many years after the above > overly optimistic statement. > > And anybody doing _any_ amount of programming outside of ones job > surely has written way more source code than would ever fit on a 1.44M > floppy, even after LZ4 compression. I know I did and I don't get to > write much code these days. > >> Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more >> storage needs 😁? > "Too much storage capacity" is a thing that fundamentally cannot exist, > data grows to fill available storage capacity eventually (and usually > much sooner than one likes). ;-) > > Kind regards, > Alex. --===============1195617506279658856==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed May 31 21:04:58 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 16:04:53 -0500 Message-ID: <633427444.390263.1685567093291@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <26e8c714-cfba-21ec-65f9-5da819038607@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4397851545306399448==" --===============4397851545306399448== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 05/31/2023 3:33 PM CDT Mike Katz via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 >=20 > I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for > comparison: >=20 > 1K 102.4" > 10K 85' > 100K 853' > 1M 1.6 Miles > 10M 16.5 Miles > 100M 165 Miles > 1G 1,695 Miles > 10G 16,947 Miles > 100G 6.8 Earth Circumferences > 1T 69.8 Earth Circumferences >=20 NSA's intel on US citizens (that they don't collect): 37 AU Googles intel on World citizens (that they don't collect): 419 LY Will --===============4397851545306399448==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed May 31 22:31:49 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 15:31:38 -0700 Message-ID: <31b88d8c-d984-a15e-2509-cf79cf145f04@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <26e8c714-cfba-21ec-65f9-5da819038607@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1217180803533969834==" --===============1217180803533969834== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 5/31/23 13:33, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for > comparison: > > 1K            102.4" > 10K          85' > 100K        853' > 1M           1.6 Miles > 10M         16.5 Miles > 100M       165 Miles > 1G            1,695 Miles > 10G          16,947 Miles > 100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences > 1T             69.8 Earth Circumferences How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards? --Chuck --===============1217180803533969834==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed May 31 22:51:48 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 17:51:40 -0500 Message-ID: <95f66c36-8968-0510-343a-711c944ae7fd@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <31b88d8c-d984-a15e-2509-cf79cf145f04@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2314710799079083170==" --===============2314710799079083170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Believe it or not I thought of that and tons of paper tape Here are some other some other good comparisons: Reels of DECtape Reels of magnetic tape. 300 baud audio cassettes. Hours to print on a 110 baud Teletype Miles of Teletype paper or fanfold paper Tons of drum storage 14" platters end to end or tonnage Tons of 6810 (128 x 8 bit) or 2102 (1Kx1) memory chips length in HP-41C magnetic card strips Miles of ultrasonic memory wire Number of bubbles of bubble memory Tons of 1 bit memory tubes (and their current draw) I guess that's enough frivolity for now. On 5/31/2023 5:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/31/23 13:33, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for >> comparison: >> >> 1K            102.4" >> 10K          85' >> 100K        853' >> 1M           1.6 Miles >> 10M         16.5 Miles >> 100M       165 Miles >> 1G            1,695 Miles >> 10G          16,947 Miles >> 100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences >> 1T             69.8 Earth Circumferences > How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards? > > --Chuck > > --===============2314710799079083170==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 31 23:22:43 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 17:22:37 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <31b88d8c-d984-a15e-2509-cf79cf145f04@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3459293264428242090==" --===============3459293264428242090== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-05-31 4:31 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/31/23 13:33, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for >> comparison: >> >> 1K            102.4" >> 10K          85' >> 100K        853' >> 1M           1.6 Miles >> 10M         16.5 Miles >> 100M       165 Miles >> 1G            1,695 Miles >> 10G          16,947 Miles >> 100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences >> 1T             69.8 Earth Circumferences > > How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards? > > --Chuck > No. I don't want to sink into a Black Hole, thank you. --===============3459293264428242090==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 31 23:24:36 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 16:24:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <31b88d8c-d984-a15e-2509-cf79cf145f04@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0768065805821492559==" --===============0768065805821492559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UGFwZXIgdGFwZQo+PiAxS8KgwqDCoCDCoMKgwqAgwqDCoMKgIDEwMi40Igo+PiAxMEvCoMKgwqAg wqDCoMKgwqDCoCA4NScKPj4gMTAwS8KgwqDCoCDCoMKgwqAgODUzJwo+PiAxTcKgwqDCoCDCoMKg IMKgIMKgIDEuNiBNaWxlcwo+PiAxME3CoMKgwqAgwqDCoMKgwqAgMTYuNSBNaWxlcwo+PiAxMDBN wqDCoMKgIMKgwqAgMTY1IE1pbGVzCj4+IDFHwqDCoMKgIMKgwqDCoCDCoMKgwqAgMSw2OTUgTWls ZXMKPj4gMTBHwqDCoMKgIMKgwqDCoCDCoCAxNiw5NDcgTWlsZXMKPj4gMTAwR8KgwqDCoCDCoMKg wqAgNi44IEVhcnRoIENpcmN1bWZlcmVuY2VzCj4+IDFUwqDCoMKgIMKgwqDCoCDCoMKgwqDCoCA2 OS44IEVhcnRoIENpcmN1bWZlcmVuY2VzCj4KPiBIb3cgYWJvdXQgY29udmVydGluZyB0aGF0IHRv IHRvbnMgb2YgODAgY29sdW1uIHB1bmNoZWQgY2FyZHM/CgoxSyAgICAgICAgMTIuOCBjYXJkcyAo YXNzdW1pbmcgMSBieXRlIHBlciBjb2x1bW4sIGFuZCBub3QgcmVzZXJ2aW5nIGFueSBjb2x1bW5z CjEwayAgICAgICAxMjggY2FyZHMKMTAwSyAgICAgIDEyODAgY2FyZHMKMU0gICAgICAgIDYuNTU2 IGJveGVzCjEwTSAgICAgICA2NS41NiBib3hlcwoxMDBNICAgICAgNjU1LjYgYm94ZXMKMUcgICAg ICAgIDYsNzAwIGJveGVzCjEwRyAgICAgICA2NywwMDAgYm94ZXMKMTAwRyAgICAgIDY3MCwwMDAg Ym94ZXMKMVQgICAgICAgIDYsODcxLDk0OCBib3hlcwo= --===============0768065805821492559==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed May 31 23:27:01 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 16:26:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3306750718245148056==" --===============3306750718245148056== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for >>> comparison: >>> >>> 1K            102.4" >>> 10K          85' >>> 100K        853' >>> 1M           1.6 Miles >>> 10M         16.5 Miles >>> 100M       165 Miles >>> 1G            1,695 Miles >>> 10G          16,947 Miles >>> 100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences >>> 1T             69.8 Earth Circumferences > On 2023-05-31 4:31 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards? On Wed, 31 May 2023, ben via cctalk wrote: > No. I don't want to sink into a Black Hole, thank you. What is the capacity of the NSA Utah Data Center? --===============3306750718245148056==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed May 31 23:33:35 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks. Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 19:33:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <95f66c36-8968-0510-343a-711c944ae7fd@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0115216735563308087==" --===============0115216735563308087== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On May 31, 2023, at 6:51 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Believe it or not I thought of that and tons of paper tape >=20 > Here are some other some other good comparisons: >=20 > Reels of DECtape > Reels of magnetic tape. > 300 baud audio cassettes. > Hours to print on a 110 baud Teletype > Miles of Teletype paper or fanfold paper > Tons of drum storage > 14" platters end to end or tonnage > Tons of 6810 (128 x 8 bit) or 2102 (1Kx1) memory chips > length in HP-41C magnetic card strips > Miles of ultrasonic memory wire > Number of bubbles of bubble memory > Tons of 1 bit memory tubes (and their current draw) >=20 > I guess that's enough frivolity for now. Tons of Selectron or Williams tubes? :-) And what about tons of mercury del= ay line? paul --===============0115216735563308087==--