From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Mar 1 08:26:03 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2023 02:25:47 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8052953761911571822==" --===============8052953761911571822== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can't help with booting DOS to a B: drive. But, in case of interest - I do keep the IBM PC 5150 notes here: Specifically as might be related here, I have some notes on using 4 disk drives: https://voidstar.blog/5150-setting-up-floppy-disk-controller/ And main point is, the DOS DRIVER.SYS might let you control the disk drive letters in a way that might help in some way. I think it was available pretty early on -- if not PC-DOS 1.0, at least PC-DOS 2.0. DEVICE=3D\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /d:2 /t:80 /s:9 DEVICE=3D\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /d:3 /t:80 /s:9 There is also a SUBST command. Can't remember if SUBST lets you override an existing letter -- I think is probably does. But if you don't have a B: drive at all, you can do something like: SUBST B: C:\UTILS Then the whole B: drive gets substitutes to that given folder. My more main IBM PC 5150 notes are here: https://voidstar.blog/ibm-pc-5150-notes/ On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 5:55=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Which versions of DOS let you boot off B: ? > > CORRECTION: > Although the default of DOS used to be A: then first HDD (usually C:), it > is the computer firmware, not DOS that decides that. > > The assumption that C: is the HDD can be annoying. I used to use PCs with > four floppies. If jumpered properly, the HDD was E:. > > > Many "modern" PCs, within the "CMOS" setup, have provision for changing > the boot sequence. Mostly, in order to default to booting from HDD, > rather than floppy, but also for CD or USB boot. > I do not know of any that permit selecting floppy B: for boot, but there > could exist some with that option, . . . > > On a PC with a single physical floppy, asking for any command with B: will > trigger a prompt to put the B: disk in drive A:, and have a phantom B: > that shares the physical drive with A: > > Swapping A: and B: is, of course, trivial to do with hardware, and/or > messing with the cable. (pin 10 of the cable [at the FDC] is A: and 12 is > B:, but the usual supplied cables are twisted and missing pins so that > every drive, on the drive itself is jumpered as if it were B:). An > untwisted cable, with switch[es] would be one way. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============8052953761911571822==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 1 12:51:07 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2023 07:50:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5287767004603279802==" --===============5287767004603279802== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Put a B sticker on the drive that boots, done. For a PC and any Tandon drive system there is a mechanical constraint to what drive is the boot drive. Jumpers and cable turn a generic tandon 100-x into the boot drive. It's not a ROM thing. The Osborne I *does* have a built-in ROM key-triggered A/B switch, DEC Robin too, Various others but not the PC BIOS. You could make the disk in drive A bootable, put a minimum OS on it, add a line ATTRIB B:; and PATH B; to an autorxec.bat that allows the computer to.pull most DOS files off the B drive, so you can have max space on the A drive for another program. There are books .from the period full of DOS tricks, but the OS level is not the hardware level. Blah blah Bill On Wed, Mar 1, 2023, 3:26 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Can't help with booting DOS to a B: drive. But, in case of interest - I do > keep the IBM PC 5150 notes here: > Specifically as might be related here, I have some notes on using 4 disk > drives: > > https://voidstar.blog/5150-setting-up-floppy-disk-controller/ > > And main point is, the DOS DRIVER.SYS might let you control the disk drive > letters in a way that > might help in some way. I think it was available pretty early on -- if not > PC-DOS 1.0, at least PC-DOS 2.0. > > DEVICE=\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /d:2 /t:80 /s:9 > DEVICE=\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /d:3 /t:80 /s:9 > > There is also a SUBST command. Can't remember if SUBST lets you override > an existing letter -- I think is probably does. > But if you don't have a B: drive at all, you can do something like: > SUBST B: C:\UTILS > Then the whole B: drive gets substitutes to that given folder. > > > My more main IBM PC 5150 notes are here: > > https://voidstar.blog/ibm-pc-5150-notes/ > > > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 5:55 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > Which versions of DOS let you boot off B: ? > > > > CORRECTION: > > Although the default of DOS used to be A: then first HDD (usually C:), it > > is the computer firmware, not DOS that decides that. > > > > The assumption that C: is the HDD can be annoying. I used to use PCs with > > four floppies. If jumpered properly, the HDD was E:. > > > > > > Many "modern" PCs, within the "CMOS" setup, have provision for changing > > the boot sequence. Mostly, in order to default to booting from HDD, > > rather than floppy, but also for CD or USB boot. > > I do not know of any that permit selecting floppy B: for boot, but there > > could exist some with that option, . . . > > > > On a PC with a single physical floppy, asking for any command with B: > will > > trigger a prompt to put the B: disk in drive A:, and have a phantom B: > > that shares the physical drive with A: > > > > Swapping A: and B: is, of course, trivial to do with hardware, and/or > > messing with the cable. (pin 10 of the cable [at the FDC] is A: and 12 > is > > B:, but the usual supplied cables are twisted and missing pins so that > > every drive, on the drive itself is jumpered as if it were B:). An > > untwisted cable, with switch[es] would be one way. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > > --===============5287767004603279802==-- From silvercreekvalley@yahoo.com Wed Mar 1 19:53:22 2023 From: Ian F To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-8/A FPP8/A Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2023 19:53:18 +0000 Message-ID: <167770039897.1516385.14762682271853401614@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <510489739.2296174.1677609303013@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7735505295385846839==" --===============7735505295385846839== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thats very interesting - a 10MHz 8 would have been quite something. --===============7735505295385846839==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Mar 1 23:36:21 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2023 15:36:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5172744146303881020==" --===============5172744146303881020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck once told us that DRIVPARM can be coerced into working on some of=20 the systemes that it won't work on, by inserting some Ctrl-A characters; DRIVPARM ^A^A^A /D:2 /F:2 BTW, FORMAT, DRIVER.SYS uses the tracks and sectors that you specify FORMAT E: /T:80 /N:9 ONLY to select WHICH ONE from the internal list. It WILL NOT let you=20 change a format, such as FORMAT E: /T:77 /N:8 unless it already has that format somewhere=20 in the internal list. https://retrocmp.de/fdd/8inch/drivparm.htm https://retrocmp.de/ms-kb/Q35766%20Supported%20Values%20for%20FORMAT%20:N%20a= nd%20:T%20Switches.txt /F:3 was once 8" SD /F:4 was once 8: DD Any machines, other than SCP that still support those? --===============5172744146303881020==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 1 23:54:18 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2023 15:54:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3450418645143489925==" --===============3450418645143489925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/1/23 15:36, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Chuck once told us that DRIVPARM can be coerced into working on some of > the systemes that it won't work on, by inserting some Ctrl-A characters; > DRIVPARM ^A^A^A /D:2 /F:2 >=20 >=20 > BTW, FORMAT, DRIVER.SYS uses the tracks and sectors that you specify > FORMAT E: /T:80 /N:9 > ONLY to select WHICH ONE from the internal list. It WILL NOT let you > change a format, such as > FORMAT E: /T:77 /N:8=C2=A0=C2=A0 unless it already has that format somewher= e in > the internal list. >=20 > https://retrocmp.de/fdd/8inch/drivparm.htm > https://retrocmp.de/ms-kb/Q35766%20Supported%20Values%20for%20FORMAT%20:N%2= 0and%20:T%20Switches.txt >=20 > /F:3 was once 8" SD > /F:4 was once 8: DD > Any machines, other than SCP that still support those? >=20 In PC DOS 3.2 and 3.3 When using PC DOS 3.2 or 3.3, DRIVPARM is undocumented but it can be made to work using this trick. In CONFIG.SYS, type: Normal DOS 4.0+ DRIVPARM set-up switches. \/ DRIVPARM ^A^A^A {switches} /\ Type Ctrl-A, not Shift-6 A. In MS-DOS's Edit, type Ctrl-P then Ctrl-A (you will see a smiley face on the screen). From https://www.doomi.ch/undocumented-dos-commands/ --Chuck --===============3450418645143489925==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Mar 2 18:43:38 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2023 10:43:30 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6897749463820670188==" --===============6897749463820670188== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I sent this before, but it didn't show up on the list; Part 1; >>> Which versions of DOS let you boot off B: ? Obviously, NO command that you run in DOS (which would be after it has=20 booted), will change the boot sequence, which is before DOS is present. Nor will such a change last through a boot (although MICROS~1 could have=20 included a tepid/partial boot, if they had wanted to.) DRIVER.SYS achieved prominence in DOS 3.20. PC-DOS 3.20 was the first time=20 that IBM supported a 3.5" ("720K") drive. Several other companies, other than= =20 IBM, already used 3.5" drives for laptops, such as Data General, Gavilan, etc= .=20 with their own drivers in MS-DOS, particularly version 2.11, which was simila= r=20 to 2.10, but used by OEMs that needed to customize MS- DOS. In many cases,=20 the 3.5" disk formats that those companies created were different from what i= s=20 supported in DOS 3.20 http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html IBM PC/JX was an IBM machine with 5.25" "720K" drives, but was never sold in = USA. Because IBM's 5170, and most already existing 286 machines, did not include=20 "720K" as any of the options in the "CMOS Setup" for identifying what kind of= =20 drive each physical drive was, DRIVER.SYS permitted creating a=20 logical/virtual/shadow drive that would share a physical drive, as E:, F:,=20 etc. LASTDRIVE was also needed if you already had more than two floppy drives and = a=20 HDD, to permit assigning drive letters past D: Another alternative was DRIVPARM ! It was a CONFIG.SYS command to alter the=20 parameters of floppy drives, WITHOUT creating any new logical drives or drive= =20 letters! DOS 3.20 and onwards. Something that has always confused me: DRIVPARM is documented in MS-DOS 3.20, but is not mentioned in the PC-DOS 3.2= 0=20 documantation. I used MS-DOS with DRIVPARM on a generic 286 machine, and it worked! I used PC-DOS with DRIVPARM on a generic 286 machine, and it worked! I used MS-DOS with DRIVPARM on a genuine 5170, and it failed, with a "BAD=20 CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" message (possibly mistaken on the exact wording) I used PC-DOS with DRIVPARM on a genuine 5170, and it failed, with a "BAD=20 CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" message (possibly mistaken on the exact wording) I used MS-DOS with DRIVPARM on a generic 286, with copy of the 5170 BIOS, and= =20 it failed, with a "BAD CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" message (possibly mistaken on the = exact wording) I used PC-DOS with DRIVPARM on a generic 286, with copy of the 5170 BIOS, and= =20 it failed, with a "BAD CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" message (possibly mistaken on the = exact wording) So, therefore, I concluded that DRIVPARM was incompatible with the IBM 5170=20 BIOS. But present in both MS-DOS 3.20 and PC-DOS 3.20, although it is=20 UNDOCUMENTED in PC-DOS. Chuck has mentioned that if you insert 3 Ctrl-A characters, it will work=20 on most; DRIVPARM ^A^A^A B: /F:2 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6897749463820670188==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Mar 2 18:45:42 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2023 10:45:38 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5859638460681284115==" --===============5859638460681284115== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resending Part 2 BTW, for the parameters for DRIVER.SYS, you can abbreviate the /t:80 /s:9 to = "/F:2" (and later, "/F:720") /0 was "360K" /1 was "1.2M" /2 was "720K" anybody remember the numbers for 8"? /d:2 meant you wanted the logical drive to use the third physical drive, /d:3= =20 meant you wanted the logical drive to use the fourth physical drive, /d:1=20 meant you wanted the logical drive to use the second physical drive, /d:0=20 meant you wanted the logical drive to use the firs physical drive, which you = could do if you used a "360K" format on the disk in the "720K" drive in A:=20 during booting. Machines that had "CMOS Setup" that supported 3.5" disk drives would let you = use a 3.5" drive as A: And 5.25" "Quad" drives (NON-HD 96tpi, such as Tandon TM100-4, Teac 55F, or=20 Shugart/matsushits 465) was generally indistinguishable to the PC from a 3.5"= =20 "720K". TRIVIAL nits on the webpage (URL that you posted): TRS80 Model II was 8" drives. (model 1 and 3 were 5.25") Although I have=20 heard of somebody kludging "1.2M" drives on one, I haven't seen it. The picture identifying locations shows the FDC on the motherboard. It was o= n=20 the FDC board, and "power connectors" is pointing at the drive internal data connectors; the power connectors are not visible in the picture= ,=20 because they are underneath. "Ive heard stories that the 37-pin external adapter can be used to read/write= =20 older 8 disk drives, but I never saw this in person. 8 disk drives were a bit= =20 before my time." modifications are needed to the FDC board to do so. Flagstaff Engineering did so, and sold a modified FDC plus 8" drive. The configuration switches on the motherboard of 5150 and 5160 can be set for= =20 up to four drives, and those should be discussed? Yes, as mentioned, with extra floppy drives, demented INSTALL programs, such = as MS-DOS 6.00, will insist on trying to install to your third floppy. SUGGESTION: a cheap vise works adequately for crimping flat IDC cables; I've = even done them with a block of wood and a hammer, and with vise-grips. NOTE: when I say "720K", "360K", "1.2M", I am using those as NAMES for those = disks, formats, and drives, not as necessarily the capacity. I am well aware= =20 that those names don't acknowledge that the "720K" drive is capable of other = formats, ranging from 640K to 800K, (or even more with short gaps, mixed=20 sector sizes, and/or other tricks). But, I have yet to see, other than=20 listing sample model numbers, names for the drive that are simple, and less=20 ambiguous. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5859638460681284115==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Mar 2 19:02:12 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2023 11:02:06 -0800 Message-ID: <00cb01d94d39$7c91e0f0$75b5a2d0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2442380723014651684==" --===============2442380723014651684== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > anybody remember the numbers for 8"? This is the official KB from MS on the topic: Standard Floppy Disk Formats Supported by MS-DOS ============================================================================ === Article ID: 75131 - View products that this article applies to. This article was previously published under Q75131 SUMMARY By using DRIVER.SYS and/or the DRIVPARM command in the CONFIG.SYS file, you can select a variety of floppy disk formats for use with MS-DOS. The tables below describe the standard floppy disk formats supported by various versions of MS-DOS and show the switches used for DRIVER.SYS and FORMAT.EXE. MORE INFORMATION The tables below include information on the following: Number of heads (sides) Number of cylinders (tracks) Number of sectors per track Total number of sectors Number of free sectors Number of sectors per cluster Total number of clusters Number of sectors per FAT (file allocation table) Number of FAT copies Number of root directory sectors Number of reserved sectors Number of hidden sectors Number of bytes per sector Number of bytes per cluster Number of root directory entries The media descriptor byte for each format What recording density was used to create the floppy disk Under what MS-DOS version this format was first supported What parameter to use with DRIVER.SYS for this format What parameter to use with FORMAT.EXE for this format Whether or not the changed-diskette line is supported NOTES 1.The switches shown for DRIVER.SYS can also be used for DRIVPARM. Example: The line "Device=C:\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /D:1 /F:9 /C" in the CONFIG.SYS file specifies that floppy disk drive B is a 2.88-megabyte (MB) 3.5-inch floppy disk drive that supports the changed-diskette line. Example: The line "DRIVPARM=/D:1 /F:9 /C" in the CONFIG.SYS file specifies that the floppy disk drive B is a 2.88-MB 3.5-inch floppy disk drive that supports the Change line. Example: The command "FORMAT B: /F:720" formats a double-sided double-density 720K floppy disk in a 1.44-MB or 2.88-MB 3.5-inch floppy disk drive that is installed in the computer as floppy disk drive B. 2.The following charts refer to "Clusters," whereas MS-DOS 5.0 and later refer to "Allocation Units." These two terms are equivalent and describe the same data structure. 3.Multiple formats with the same DRIVER.SYS switch is NOT an error. 4.Multiple formats with the same media descriptor byte does NOT indicate an error. 5.Valid media descriptor bytes for MS-DOS are listed below: Byte Capacity Media Size and Type --------------------------------------------------- F0 2.88 MB 3.5-inch, 2-sided, 36-sector F0 1.44 MB 3.5-inch, 2-sided, 18-sector F9 720K 3.5-inch, 2-sided, 9-sector F9 1.2 MB 5.25-inch, 2-sided, 15-sector FD 360K 5.25-inch, 2-sided, 9-sector FF 320K 5.25-inch, 2-sided, 8-sector FC 180K 5.25-inch, 1-sided, 9-sector FE 160K 5.25-inch, 1-sided, 8-sector FE 250K 8-inch, 1-sided, single-density FD 500K 8-inch, 2-sided, single-density FE 1.2 MB 8-inch, 2-sided, double-density F8 ----- Fixed disk 6.Both track and cylinder numbers are zero-based. For example, 360K 5.25-inch floppy disks have 40 tracks numbered 0 through 39. Similarly, head numbers and side numbers are also zero-based. For example, 360K 5.25-inch floppy disks have sides 0 and 1 (corresponding to heads 0 and 1). However sectors are one-based. For example, 360K 5.25-inch floppy disks have sectors numbered 1 through 9. Standard Floppy Disk Formats Supported by MS-DOS 3.5 Inch - Formatted Capacity 720K 1.44 MB 2.88 MB # of Heads (Sides) 2 2 2 # of Cyls (Tracks) 80 80 80 # of Sectors/Track 9 18 36 Total # of Sectors 1440 2880 5760 # of Free Sectors 1426 2847 5726 # Sectors/Cluster 2 1 2 Total # of Clusters 713 2847 2863 # Sectors/FAT 3 9 9 # of FAT Copies 2 2 2 # of Root Dir Sectors 7 14 15 # Reserved Sectors 1 1 1 # of Hidden Sectors 0 0 0 # of Bytes/Sector 512 512 512 # of Bytes/Cluster 1024 512 1024 # Root Dir Entries 112 224 240 Media Descriptor F9 F0 F0 Recorded Density Double High High MS-DOS Version Began 3.20 3.30 5.00 DRIVER.SYS Switch /F:2 /F:7 /F:9 FORMAT.EXE Switch /F:720 /F:1.44 /F:2.88 Change-Line Support YES YES YES 5.25 Inch - Formatted Capacity 160K 180K 320K 360K 1.2 MB # of Heads (Sides) 1 1 2 2 2 # of Cyls (Tracks) 40 40 40 40 80 # of Sectors/Track 8 9 8 9 15 Total # of Sectors 320 360 640 720 2400 # of Free Sectors 313 351 630 708 2371 # Sectors/Cluster 1 1 2 2 1 Total # of Clusters 313 351 315 354 2371 # of Sectors/FAT 1 2 1 2 7 # of FAT Copies 2 2 2 2 2 # of Root Dir Sectors 4 4 7 7 14 # Reserved Sectors 1 1 1 1 1 # of Hidden Sectors 0 0 0 0 0 # of Bytes/Sector 512 512 512 512 512 # of Bytes/Cluster 512 512 1024 1024 512 # Root Dir Entries 64 64 112 112 224 Media Descriptor FE FC FF FD F9 Recorded Density Double Double Double Double High MS-DOS Version Began 1.00 2.00 1.10 2.00 3.00 DRIVER.SYS Switch /F:0 /F:0 /F:0 /F:0 /F:1 FORMAT.EXE Switch /F:160 /F:180 /F:320 /F:360 /F:1.2 Change-Line Support NO NO NO NO YES 8-Inch - Formatted Capacity 250K 500K 1.2 MB # of Heads (Sides) 1 2 2 # of Cyls (Tracks) 77 77 77 # of Sectors/Track 26 26 8 Total # of Sectors 2002 4004 1232 # of Bytes/Sector 128 128 1024 # of Bytes/Cluster 512 512 1024 # Sectors/Cluster 4 4 1 Total # of Clusters 497 997 1227 # Reserved Sectors 1 4 1 # of Hidden Sectors 3 0 0 # Sectors/FAT 6 6 2 # of FAT Copies 2 2 2 # Root Dir Entries 68 68 192 Media Descriptor FE FD FE Recorded Density Single Single Double MS-DOS Version Began 1.00 2.00 2.00 Change-Line Support NO NO NO Article ID: 75131 - Last Review: May 12, 2003 - Revision: 2.0 APPLIES TO .Microsoft MS-DOS 1.0 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 2.11 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 3.1 .Microsoft MS-DOS 3.2 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 3.21 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 3.3 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 3.3a .Microsoft MS-DOS 4.0 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 4.01 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 5.0 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 5.0a .Microsoft MS-DOS 6.0 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 6.2 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 6.21 Standard Edition .Microsoft MS-DOS 6.22 Standard Edition Keywords: KB75131 --===============2442380723014651684==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Mar 2 19:38:16 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2023 11:37:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00cb01d94d39$7c91e0f0$75b5a2d0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4710804868054762262==" --===============4710804868054762262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/2/23 11:02, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> anybody remember the numbers for 8"? > > This is the official KB from MS on the topic: > > Standard Floppy Disk Formats Supported by MS-DOS > Japanese MS-DOS (used on NEC computers, mostly) used 1024 byte sectors in 8", 5.25" and 3.5" media. In fact, most USB floppy adapters support the NEC 1.23M format and Windows NT has understood it (given a capable drive) for many years. It's Microsoft, so why it's not included in the table is beyond me. For example, if you were to use a NEC APC (sold in the US) with 8" drives, you'd find this format. Sector size: 1024 Cluster size: 1024 Sectors/FAT 2 Media byte FE Root directory size 192 --Chuck --===============4710804868054762262==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Mar 2 19:56:36 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2023 11:56:32 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1472598513184214514==" --===============1472598513184214514== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is indeed strange that, MICROS~1 never seems to acknowledge the existence of the NEC variant. And yet, it made sense to have the same disk format parameters for three sizes of disk. Unfortunately, the otherwise excellent table leaves out the lines for DRIVER.SYS and FORMAT specifiers (if such existed) There are, of course, MANY other variants of MS-DOS disk formats, but mostly created by OEMs, not by Microsoft, and particularly with MS-DOS 2.11 and 3.31 . For example, 80 track 5.25" DD formats, such as Tandy 2000, IBM PC/JX, Dec Rainbow, etc., and 3.5" disks, such as HP, Gavilan, Data General, etc., before DOS 3.20. http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html (includes formats other than MS-DOS, such as CP/M, P-System, NEC and other with the Microsoft "Stand-Alone BASIC") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >>> anybody remember the numbers for 8"? > On 3/2/23 11:02, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> This is the official KB from MS on the topic: >> Standard Floppy Disk Formats Supported by MS-DOS On Thu, 2 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Japanese MS-DOS (used on NEC computers, mostly) used 1024 byte sectors > in 8", 5.25" and 3.5" media. In fact, most USB floppy adapters support > the NEC 1.23M format and Windows NT has understood it (given a capable > drive) for many years. > > It's Microsoft, so why it's not included in the table is beyond me. > > For example, if you were to use a NEC APC (sold in the US) with 8" > drives, you'd find this format. > > Sector size: 1024 > Cluster size: 1024 > Sectors/FAT 2 > Media byte FE > Root directory size 192 > > --Chuck --===============1472598513184214514==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Mar 2 23:26:09 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Using Gotek's to emulate RX50's. Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2023 18:25:59 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7139195704523102384==" --===============7139195704523102384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seems like it should be simple, but it is not. I have a pair of Goteks with the Flaashfloppy code and each one has a USB with 400k RX50 images on it. Both are set to drive 2, and a standard 40 pin floppy crossover cable allows me to emulate a pair of drives. Now, I want to replace the RX50 drive on my Pro/380 with this setup to allow it to install POS. However it does not work, the Pro fails startup with an error on the floppy controller board, and so far it looks like POS can't see the disks. So what is the difference between an RX50 and a pair of 5.25 drives, and is it possible for Flashfloppy to emulate whatever oddness is in a true rx50? CZ --===============7139195704523102384==-- From bdweb@mindspring.com Thu Mar 2 23:57:37 2023 From: Bjoren Davis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Gotek's to emulate RX50's. Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2023 15:52:32 -0800 Message-ID: <8b2f0da0-74e2-81c3-2c23-ff691c9901c7@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0664423058834071820==" --===============0664423058834071820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris, I, too, tried a similar thing. It mostly worked until there was a need to switch quickly between the two drives (booting the diagnostics, for example).  Then it worked strangely. What I believe may be going on is that the Pro is relying on the fact that, although there appear to be 2 drives attached, they are using the same head positioning -- they seek in parallel. I thought about hacking the Flashfloppy code to pay attention to the drive select and allow a single Gotek to emulate both drives (and take into account the parallel seeking), but I just ended up using a real RX50 to boot diagnostics and that was good enough at the time.  The big problem is that the Flashfloppy would need to have 2 disk images mounted at once.  There's a problem of limited RAM in the Flashfloppy, but there's also a problem of the UI which is really set up for only a single image. --Bjoren On 3/2/2023 3:25 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Seems like it should be simple, but it is not. > > I have a pair of Goteks with the Flaashfloppy code and each one has a > USB with 400k RX50 images on it. Both are set to drive 2, and a > standard 40 pin floppy crossover cable allows me to emulate a pair of > drives. > > Now, I want to replace the RX50 drive on my Pro/380 with this setup to > allow it to install POS. However it does not work, the Pro fails > startup with an error on the floppy controller board, and so far it > looks like POS can't see the disks. > > So what is the difference between an RX50 and a pair of 5.25 drives, > and is it possible for Flashfloppy to emulate whatever oddness is in a > true rx50? > > CZ --===============0664423058834071820==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Mar 4 04:45:12 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] QIC tapes Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2023 22:44:57 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3381991689322707737==" --===============3381991689322707737== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there anyone familiar with restoring or recovering QIC tapes? I have some original tapes from an IBM 5100. (DC300 media, I think?) A couple of them have the band loose -- I've seen these replaced in the past. One of them looks in decent condition, but want a second opinion before trying to read it in the IBM 5100. Can send preview images of the conditions. I do also have an external 5106 and, if the tapes are still readable, I should be able to make "fresh" backup copies (as far as the DC6150 media that I have which is from the 90's). From there, I'm not exactly sure how to digitally extract the content to have preserved. -SL --===============3381991689322707737==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sat Mar 4 06:40:12 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NextStep/Intel, 486's and Pentium overdrive, thoughts. Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2023 17:21:34 -0500 Message-ID: <00b8bccb-5539-c7ba-fecc-52d4068172a7@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6852114079188143037==" --===============6852114079188143037== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As part of fixing the Pro/380 I dug out and decided to get running my two Intel systems. These are Compaq Deskpro/XE systems. One is a 4100 which has an Intel 486/100 (25mhz, quad clock), the other I upgraded with a Pentium P524T overdrive chip at 83mhz (33mhz external clock). The P524T was an interesting duck: It's a 5 volt pentium, 32 bit external bus but they did double the amount of 64 bit on-chip cache so it can perk along quicker than one might think. Not many were sold, but I have one and there you go. It even has a little fan on the heat sink that is powered off the chip. Cute. The Deskpro/XE's were great systems, slimline, Compaq business audio, QVision video interface with 2mb of RAM, IDE drive, and oddly enough a 3 slot ISA bus. Most of the system ran at native 32 bit, so you just ran a slow network card in the ISA. They also had up to 32mb memory, and an optional memory cache card to speed things up. The systems had issues, both on-board batteries were dead, resulting in me having to find, download, run (not easy) and extract a setup floppy for this model as you can't do the system settings without it. Not quite an EISA config, but similar levels of stupidity in the ISA world. And one of them does not seem to see the ISA bus, but not a big deal as it will just be a DOS floppy maker. Anyway, finally got one of them running and decided to do some benchmarks. Booting NextStep 4.2, and tried out a few basic tests. Findings: For general booting and such the Pentium does not offer that much of an advantage. Time to go from login window to system quiet with 20mb memory (I load several apps by default) is: 486/100-121 seconds Pentium: 120 seconds Installing and removing the 256k cache card (an option I have one of) doesn't change the time much at all, maybe a second. Boosting memory to 32mb brought that number down to 84 seconds. Moral: Memory matters. Then I figured I would try a CPU intensive app: Good old NeXT Mandelbrot. While a true NeXT slab will kick the rear of any Intel chip (due to the on board DSP56001) I figured I would put the Pentium up against the 486/100 and running the 486 at 33mhz external bus (133mhz) in insane overclock mode.`So rendering the "Valley of Fear" (a complex subset) resulted in: Pentium, no external cache: 36 seconds. Pentium, external cache: 34 seconds. Not bad, cache really doesn't do a whole lot here. 486/100, no cache: 90 seconds. Wow, that is slow. 486/133, no cache: 65s. Faster, but very slow. So the addition of the Pentium makes a huge difference on floating point CPU intensive apps. I'm also guessing the extra large cache makes a difference as well for highly iterative loads. With this done I can continue looking for a 5.25 floppy to see about making more PRO disks. --===============6852114079188143037==-- From spacewar@gmail.com Sat Mar 4 19:46:15 2023 From: Eric Smith To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wanted: Apple III 5MB Profile HD driver file Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2023 12:46:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <361275273.4212399.1677167069307@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3348380202561924118==" --===============3348380202561924118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 08:44 Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 02/21/2023 10:48 PM CST Eric Smith via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > Profile trivia: > > > > The firmware _inside_ the Profile is strange in that it doesn't actually > > KNOW the size of the Profile it's installed into. At power up, when the > > drive reads the home block, the drive size is stored there. That's done > > when the drive is formatted. There is different formatter firmware for > 5MB > > and 10MB drives. > > I think that was rather common with early SASI/SCSI controller boards that > were separate from the drive. > That was done because the controller manufacturer didn't make the drives. A system integrator or even the end user was expected to use the controller with some arbitrarily selected drive. The Apple Profile was an entire preconfigured subsystem in a box. Apple bought the drive mechanism (only, no electronics, not even the normal drive electronics), built the controller, packaged it, and nothing was user-upgradeable. It wasn't even considered dealer-upgradeable. The controller and drive mechanism were permanently associated. If the drive mechanism failed, service replaced it with an identical mechanism. The Profile controller could deal with drives with a varying number of cylinders, hence the existence of both 5MB and 10MB models, but was not designed to support more heads like a general-purpose SASI bridge. --===============3348380202561924118==-- From rdowns@radix.co.uk Sat Mar 4 23:34:44 2023 From: Robin Downs To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] CTS-300 / DIBOL for RT-11 V5.x - Any source or downloads please? Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2023 23:34:31 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4826229279532372561==" --===============4826229279532372561== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all and thank you for reading I am trying to get my rebuilt PDP-11/23 running and able to compile and run D= IBOL code... I have RT11 up and working again, but cannot find a complete set of CTS-300 f= iles, with the DIBOL compiler FYI, I'm in the UK - and help greatly appreciated! Regards, Robin --===============4826229279532372561==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Sat Mar 4 23:47:15 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CTS-300 / DIBOL for RT-11 V5.x - Any source or downloads please? Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2023 15:47:00 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CPR3PR01MB68605453618631981DDDF44A9DB09=40PR3PR01MB?= =?utf-8?q?6860=2Eeurprd01=2Eprod=2Eexchangelabs=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0900934542607939158==" --===============0900934542607939158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 4, 2023, at 3:34 PM, Robin Downs via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi all and thank you for reading >=20 > I am trying to get my rebuilt PDP-11/23 running and able to compile and run= DIBOL code... >=20 > I have RT11 up and working again, but cannot find a complete set of CTS-300= files, with the DIBOL compiler >=20 > FYI, I'm in the UK - and help greatly appreciated! >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Robin I=E2=80=99ve not seen any, but would love to be proven wrong. --===============0900934542607939158==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sun Mar 5 04:06:44 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2023 23:06:34 -0500 Message-ID: <3c965f2d-891d-0fff-8472-d9817dbc4ebd@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9205480867487185918==" --===============9205480867487185918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, after banging my head against the wall for awhile this evening it looks like I have two flashfloppy drives working on my Pro/380. Well enough to boot from and install 3.2 options. The keys are these: 1) Use a flat 34 pin ribbon cable with three plugs in a straight line. I tried using one with the traditional flip, got frustrated at the extra complexity, and reterminated it as straight through all the way. 2) Set one drive to unit 0 (J2 installed) and the second to unit 1 (J3 installed) 3) This is the kicker: RX50's are Shugart drives. You have to go into the configuration and set the drives to Shugart. IBMPC doesn't work properly with the disk ready and disk swap signal, I stumbled on this when I found that flipping the disk image while it was seeking produced a brief access. Hah. 4) I set the ff.cfg also to read only to avoid stepping on the images by accident. So far it seems to be working, saw both drives in the file manager (I had built a minimum system with the floppies I had) and now I'm reformatting the RD53 drive and doing a full install. Should be as simple as turning the knob and hitting resume. Thanks to Bjoren for letting me know it kind of worked for him years ago which gave me the knowledge that it could work. One issue I can see is that since both "drives" use the same head, stupid software could assume that since drive 0 was seeked to track 30 then drive 1 should be at track 30 and thus no need to change tracks. So far I haven't seen this happen, but we shall see. Interesting. CZ --===============9205480867487185918==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sun Mar 5 05:07:17 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2023 22:07:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3c965f2d-891d-0fff-8472-d9817dbc4ebd@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1303863368409300558==" --===============1303863368409300558== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is very cool! Glad to see you got it working... On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 9:06=E2=80=AFPM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Ok, after banging my head against the wall for awhile this evening it > looks like I have two flashfloppy drives working on my Pro/380. Well > enough to boot from and install 3.2 options. > > The keys are these: > 1) Use a flat 34 pin ribbon cable with three plugs in a straight line. I > tried using one with the traditional flip, got frustrated at the extra > complexity, and reterminated it as straight through all the way. > > 2) Set one drive to unit 0 (J2 installed) and the second to unit 1 (J3 > installed) > Yea, that's how the two floppy setups on the DEC Rainbow were done. Flipped cables only were a IBM-PC thing at first, though others started using them later to emulate the PC... The few CP/M machines I've played with were more like the Rainbow than the IBM-PC, but there were so many CP/M machines I might have missed it... > 3) This is the kicker: RX50's are Shugart drives. You have to go into > the configuration and set the drives to Shugart. IBMPC doesn't work > properly with the disk ready and disk swap signal, I stumbled on this > when I found that flipping the disk image while it was seeking produced > a brief access. Hah. > Yes. Pin 34 is READY, not CHANGE, and it has to come ready for the controller to like the drive. I managed to get the GoTek working with this config, but I did this for a single drive on my Rainbow. Since I have the MFM emulator, I've only dabbled with the GoTek. > 4) I set the ff.cfg also to read only to avoid stepping on the images by > accident. > > So far it seems to be working, saw both drives in the file manager (I > had built a minimum system with the floppies I had) and now I'm > reformatting the RD53 drive and doing a full install. Should be as > simple as turning the knob and hitting resume. > Nice! > Thanks to Bjoren for letting me know it kind of worked for him years ago > which gave me the knowledge that it could work. One issue I can see is > that since both "drives" use the same head, stupid software could assume > that since drive 0 was seeked to track 30 then drive 1 should be at > track 30 and thus no need to change tracks. So far I haven't seen this > happen, but we shall see. > I've not seen this assumption in practice. Part of the reason is that, I was told years ago, was because many DEC Engineers had two separate drives instead of the RX-50 in their systems, so errors like this would be caught and fixed. I never encountered any when I ran my DEC Rainbow with two TEAC FD-55F drives in either MS-DOS or CP/M. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but it's been more of hypothetical than a common thing. I'd love to see if you stumbled over this... Warner --===============1303863368409300558==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Mar 5 05:28:41 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2023 21:28:35 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3c965f2d-891d-0fff-8472-d9817dbc4ebd@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1977589855372957335==" --===============1977589855372957335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Minor tangent: decades ago, very briefly, several manufacturers, such as Canon, introduced "dual" drives, that were the size of a regular floppy drive, but with two slots, with two sets of heads, etc., for people who wanted two floppy drives. There were two variations, differentiated mostly, but not entirely by price. One version had one head positioner, and the heads of both drives would be on the same cylinder. The other variation had independent head positioners. Although MOST uses would prefer the independent positioners, the one that shared a positioner, IFF the software understood, could copy disks much faster. If the software did not understand, then it was extremely slow, having to recalibrate for every track seek. Before long, however, those drives were replaced by dual drives that consisted of a 5.25" drive and a 3.5" drive, because, by that time people were less interested in having a pair of drives than they were in haveing both types. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Sat, 4 Mar 2023, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Ok, after banging my head against the wall for awhile this evening it > looks like I have two flashfloppy drives working on my Pro/380. Well > enough to boot from and install 3.2 options. > > The keys are these: > 1) Use a flat 34 pin ribbon cable with three plugs in a straight line. > I tried using one with the traditional flip, got frustrated at the > extra complexity, and reterminated it as straight through all the way. > > 2) Set one drive to unit 0 (J2 installed) and the second to unit 1 (J3 > installed) > > 3) This is the kicker: RX50's are Shugart drives. You have to go into > the configuration and set the drives to Shugart. IBMPC doesn't work > properly with the disk ready and disk swap signal, I stumbled on this > when I found that flipping the disk image while it was seeking > produced a brief access. Hah. > > 4) I set the ff.cfg also to read only to avoid stepping on the images > by accident. > > So far it seems to be working, saw both drives in the file manager (I > had built a minimum system with the floppies I had) and now I'm > reformatting the RD53 drive and doing a full install. Should be as > simple as turning the knob and hitting resume. > > Thanks to Bjoren for letting me know it kind of worked for him years > ago which gave me the knowledge that it could work. One issue I can > see is that since both "drives" use the same head, stupid software > could assume that since drive 0 was seeked to track 30 then drive 1 > should be at track 30 and thus no need to change tracks. So far I > haven't seen this happen, but we shall see. > > Interesting. > CZ > --===============1977589855372957335==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sun Mar 5 14:10:58 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2023 00:44:00 -0500 Message-ID: <4c673e3a-d9b9-5945-c5b5-399e41fbb20c@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1696133228915455755==" --===============1696133228915455755== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you Warner. Just takes time and staring at the thing for awhile. I now have a full POS 3.2 install and Pro/Toolkit. Looks like it is M+ 3.2 all right, over the next month I'll start poking around and see if I can tease out the drivers and such for a better Gen. I want Split I/D support. And if I do a snapshot of this real RD53 to Gesswin's emulator and use that as my main disk I can try things, trash the system, then revert to a snapshot in no time. First though I need to get Pro/Decnet working. POS 3.2 does installs differently than 2.0: It has the ability to have multiple "users" (nice) and as a part of that you don't "Install" apps from disk anymore. Instead you install them to a "System Library", then install them for that user using the normal "Install" but from "Library" instead of disk. Weird, but makes sense: The library install puts in everything that's privledged, and the menu install allows you to copy the additional files for specific users. I wonder if you can install the libraries on a DECNET mounted volume, that would be a *great* way to allow centralized software distribution, update, patching, and cut down on local disk space needs. In the early 1980's. *sigh* DEC totally blew it, didn't they. CZ On 3/5/2023 12:07 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > This is very cool! Glad to see you got it working... > > On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 9:06 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > > Ok, after banging my head against the wall for awhile this evening it > looks like I have two flashfloppy drives working on my Pro/380. Well > enough to boot from and install 3.2 options. > > The keys are these: > 1) Use a flat 34 pin ribbon cable with three plugs in a straight > line. I > tried using one with the traditional flip, got frustrated at the extra > complexity, and reterminated it as straight through all the way. > > 2) Set one drive to unit 0 (J2 installed) and the second to unit 1 (J3 > installed) > > > Yea, that's how the two floppy setups on the DEC Rainbow were done. > Flipped cables only were a IBM-PC thing at first, though others started > using them later to emulate the PC... The few CP/M machines I've played > with were more like the Rainbow than the IBM-PC, but there were so > many CP/M machines I might have missed it... > > 3) This is the kicker: RX50's are Shugart drives. You have to go into > the configuration and set the drives to Shugart. IBMPC doesn't work > properly with the disk ready and disk swap signal, I stumbled on this > when I found that flipping the disk image while it was seeking produced > a brief access. Hah. > > > Yes. Pin 34 is READY, not CHANGE, and it has to come ready for the > controller to like the drive. I managed to get the GoTek working with > this config, but I did this for a single drive on my Rainbow. Since I > have the MFM emulator, I've only dabbled with the GoTek. > > 4) I set the ff.cfg also to read only to avoid stepping on the > images by > accident. > > So far it seems to be working, saw both drives in the file manager (I > had built a minimum system with the floppies I had) and now I'm > reformatting the RD53 drive and doing a full install. Should be as > simple as turning the knob and hitting resume. > > > Nice! > > Thanks to Bjoren for letting me know it kind of worked for him years > ago > which gave me the knowledge that it could work. One issue I can see is > that since both "drives" use the same head, stupid software could > assume > that since drive 0 was seeked to track 30 then drive 1 should be at > track 30 and thus no need to change tracks. So far I haven't seen this > happen, but we shall see. > > > I've not seen this assumption in practice. Part of the reason is that, > I was told years ago, was because many DEC Engineers had two separate > drives instead of the RX-50 in their systems, so errors like this would be > caught and fixed. I never encountered any when I ran my DEC Rainbow > with two TEAC FD-55F drives in either MS-DOS or CP/M. That doesn't > mean they don't exist, but it's been more of hypothetical than a common > thing. I'd love to see if you stumbled over this... > > Warner > --===============1696133228915455755==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Mar 5 15:20:07 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Spurious spam filters Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2023 10:20:00 -0500 Message-ID: <6E3403A1-FB20-495B-8E52-FA608556306B@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8694885360607557791==" --===============8694885360607557791== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The notion that mailing lists can filter spam by sender email address is fund= amentally broken, at least when the addresses filtered are those of major ISP= s. The mistake is that the fact a particular ISP customer sends spam doesn't= mean that the millions of other customers do. Since the antispam "service" currently used by the cctalk list doesn't unders= tand this, can it be leaned on to fix their mistake? If not, could it be scr= apped? Unfortunately, this sort of wrongheaded behavior goes back decades; o= ne wonders what's wrong with the people who run these so-called services. paul --===============8694885360607557791==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Mar 5 15:20:26 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2023 10:20:18 -0500 Message-ID: <423C8D06-510C-4796-B305-E3E9F96FDE0B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <3c965f2d-891d-0fff-8472-d9817dbc4ebd@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7861214503171830974==" --===============7861214503171830974== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 4, 2023, at 11:06 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ...One issue I can see is that since both "drives" use the same head, stupi= d software could assume that since drive 0 was seeked to track 30 then drive = 1 should be at track 30 and thus no need to change tracks. So far I haven't s= een this happen, but we shall see. On the Pro, the software sees a fairly traditional CSR set with disk address = registers (sector and track). So an assumption like the one you worry about = would be in the controller, not the OS. If it works at all then that would s= ay the controller doesn't make that assumption. paul --===============7861214503171830974==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sun Mar 5 15:24:06 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2023 10:24:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <423C8D06-510C-4796-B305-E3E9F96FDE0B@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7169436829696531799==" --===============7169436829696531799== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On the Pro, the software sees a fairly traditional CSR set with disk addres= s registers (sector and track). So an assumption like the one you worry abou= t would be in the controller, not the OS. If it works at all then that would= say the controller doesn't make that assumption. >=20 Yup, things just seem to work. I even was able to boot the diagnostics=20 disk from virtual floppy, you just have to remember which Gotek is DZ1:=20 and which is DZ2: and wait a few seconds after switching for the Gotek's=20 to "settle down" when swapping images. But it works, my DECNA passes all diagnostics, and it looks like it also=20 passes the loopback tests for DECNET 3.2. Now to figure out how the TMS software works.... :-) CZ --===============7169436829696531799==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sun Mar 5 15:40:28 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2023 10:40:24 -0500 Message-ID: <2571b25e-837e-bd5d-a4d7-fa3b4ce006e5@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0805354689287132608==" --===============0805354689287132608== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Holy smokes. Poking around on these disk images it looks like these system have a FULL DECNET FILE SERVER as well. I'm guessing it would allow endpoints to get install files off a central Pro/350. Or maybe allow users to share files, do what Netware did, that sort of thing. Who know what else I can do with that..... This thing could do a lot more with 3.2 than it could with 2.0 software. Very interesting... CZ On 3/5/2023 10:24 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> On the Pro, the software sees a fairly traditional CSR set with disk >> address registers (sector and track).  So an assumption like the one >> you worry about would be in the controller, not the OS.  If it works >> at all then that would say the controller doesn't make that assumption. >> > > Yup, things just seem to work. I even was able to boot the diagnostics > disk from virtual floppy, you just have to remember which Gotek is DZ1: > and which is DZ2: and wait a few seconds after switching for the Gotek's > to "settle down" when swapping images. > > But it works, my DECNA passes all diagnostics, and it looks like it also > passes the loopback tests for DECNET 3.2. > > Now to figure out how the TMS software works.... :-) > > CZ --===============0805354689287132608==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Mar 8 01:05:12 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Age of Tape Formats? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 17:04:55 -0800 Message-ID: <228F2AB7-2E45-4125-A37D-61C578F86E13@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8907538000572319782==" --===============8907538000572319782== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape = formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or DC600A = cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that documents this= ? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is. Zane --===============8907538000572319782==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 8 01:23:23 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 17:23:14 -0800 Message-ID: <7bfe5ddf-7d55-0715-2c20-d26c571c3ee4@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <228F2AB7-2E45-4125-A37D-61C578F86E13@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1144622284997490422==" --===============1144622284997490422== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/7/23 17:04, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tap= e formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or DC600= A cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that documents th= is? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is Strictly speaking out of an orifice, I'd suggest that 9 track tapes in NRZI and PE first came around with the IBM 2400 series tapes, GCR with the 3400. Prior to the S/360, tape drives were largely 7 track and used NRZI in 200, 556 and 800 bpi densities (IBM 700 series drives). Of course, there are many outliers. As far as QIC-24 (DC600A), the applicable standard dates from 1983. https://www.qic.org/html/qicstan.html FWIW, --Chuck --===============1144622284997490422==-- From drb@msu.edu Wed Mar 8 01:30:19 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 20:30:06 -0500 Message-ID: <20230308013007.2648E3AA8E1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <228F2AB7-2E45-4125-A37D-61C578F86E13@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3582570765583202162==" --===============3582570765583202162== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I’m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700’ 9-Track tapes or DC600A > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the > spottier it is. For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages are fairly useful. De --===============3582570765583202162==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Mar 8 01:33:07 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 20:32:47 -0500 Message-ID: <34AF4A3C-5B85-45CD-BCEB-0617B13AA2D8@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <7bfe5ddf-7d55-0715-2c20-d26c571c3ee4@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4103099106218979012==" --===============4103099106218979012== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 7, 2023, at 8:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 3/7/23 17:04, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various ta= pe formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or DC60= 0A cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that documents t= his? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is >=20 > Strictly speaking out of an orifice, I'd suggest that 9 track tapes in > NRZI and PE first came around with the IBM 2400 series tapes, GCR with > the 3400. Was IBM the first for each of these? I'm a bit puzzled by "6250 700'" because the reel size has no bearing on the = format. 10 inch reels (1200 feet) were by far the most common but occasional= lly the smaller 600 foot ones would be seen. and in rare cases (the infamous = DEC TS05 comes to mind) 600' was all that they could handle. > Prior to the S/360, tape drives were largely 7 track and used NRZI in > 200, 556 and 800 bpi densities (IBM 700 series drives). Of course, > there are many outliers. I added the 14-track CDC drives to the Wikipedia article a while ago. And I'= ve been learning a bit about the oddball 10 track 1/2 inch tapes used on the = Electrologica X1 (and, apparently, on the Eliott (UK) as well). The X1 tape = is unusual in that it's somewhat like DECtape -- it supports random rewriting= but with variable length blocks limited by a size limit set at format time r= ather than a single fixed block size. paul --===============4103099106218979012==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 01:35:40 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 20:35:35 -0500 Message-ID: <99d73a02-94fa-8f16-4b36-3914661711a3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7bfe5ddf-7d55-0715-2c20-d26c571c3ee4@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2822154837454656965==" --===============2822154837454656965== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-03-07 20:23, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/7/23 17:04, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various ta= pe formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or DC60= 0A cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that documents t= his? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is > Strictly speaking out of an orifice, I'd suggest that 9 track tapes in > NRZI and PE first came around with the IBM 2400 series tapes, GCR with > the 3400. > > Prior to the S/360, tape drives were largely 7 track and used NRZI in > 200, 556 and 800 bpi densities (IBM 700 series drives). Of course, > there are many outliers. > > As far as QIC-24 (DC600A), the applicable standard dates from 1983. > > https://www.qic.org/html/qicstan.html > > FWIW, > --Chuck > > > I was a CE on a site with multiple Uniservo VI C units at Bell Canada in=20 1971-1975.=C2=A0 They were 200, 556, and 800 bpi NRZI, and were instilled at = that site in 1968.=C2=A0 We used a chemical called 'Visimag' to coat the tape= =20 and see the=C2=A0 physical bits and check that they were in line! You cannot = do that with later GCR densities! cheers, Nigel --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============2822154837454656965==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 8 03:07:25 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 19:07:16 -0800 Message-ID: <46beada9-a0fe-d574-4f4b-eca7863cbb98@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <34AF4A3C-5B85-45CD-BCEB-0617B13AA2D8@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3489244080911879281==" --===============3489244080911879281== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/7/23 17:32, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 7, 2023, at 8:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 3/7/23 17:04, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various t= ape formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or DC6= 00A cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that documents = this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is >> >> Strictly speaking out of an orifice, I'd suggest that 9 track tapes in >> NRZI and PE first came around with the IBM 2400 series tapes, GCR with >> the 3400. >=20 > Was IBM the first for each of these? For 9 track tapes, definitely. 7 track, that would go back to the IBM 726, but that was only 100 bpi. Later members of the series increase density. My experience is that with 7 track, the density matters mostly with writing. A drive set to 800 or 556 bpi can easily read 200 bpi. > I added the 14-track CDC drives to the Wikipedia article a while ago. And = I've been learning a bit about the oddball 10 track 1/2 inch tapes used on th= e Electrologica X1 (and, apparently, on the Eliott (UK) as well). The X1 tap= e is unusual in that it's somewhat like DECtape -- it supports random rewriti= ng but with variable length blocks limited by a size limit set at format time= rather than a single fixed block size. There were several vendor-specific tape formats early on, generally not interchangeable between vendor equipment, so I won't count those. --Chuck --===============3489244080911879281==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Mar 8 03:11:54 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Speaking of tapes.... Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 22:11:47 -0500 Message-ID: <58965499-5175-8b83-90e6-d3e4d1842e2e@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <46beada9-a0fe-d574-4f4b-eca7863cbb98@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5350984389529297589==" --===============5350984389529297589== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed in a Dectape 2 document that the tape drives are just DC100=20 models. Are there any specific documents on what kinds of signals should=20 be coming out or into them? I'd like to fix this TU58. CZ On 3/7/2023 10:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/7/23 17:32, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Mar 7, 2023, at 8:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 3/7/23 17:04, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>> I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various = tape formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or DC= 600A cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that documents= this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is >>> >>> Strictly speaking out of an orifice, I'd suggest that 9 track tapes in >>> NRZI and PE first came around with the IBM 2400 series tapes, GCR with >>> the 3400. >> >> Was IBM the first for each of these? >=20 > For 9 track tapes, definitely. 7 track, that would go back to the IBM > 726, but that was only 100 bpi. Later members of the series increase > density. My experience is that with 7 track, the density matters mostly > with writing. A drive set to 800 or 556 bpi can easily read 200 bpi. >=20 >=20 >> I added the 14-track CDC drives to the Wikipedia article a while ago. And= I've been learning a bit about the oddball 10 track 1/2 inch tapes used on t= he Electrologica X1 (and, apparently, on the Eliott (UK) as well). The X1 ta= pe is unusual in that it's somewhat like DECtape -- it supports random rewrit= ing but with variable length blocks limited by a size limit set at format tim= e rather than a single fixed block size. >=20 > There were several vendor-specific tape formats early on, generally not > interchangeable between vendor equipment, so I won't count those. >=20 > --Chuck >=20 >=20 --===============5350984389529297589==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Mar 8 04:34:52 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 20:34:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <34AF4A3C-5B85-45CD-BCEB-0617B13AA2D8@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0343158124406449839==" --===============0343158124406449839== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 7, 2023, at 5:32 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > I'm a bit puzzled by "6250 700'" because the reel size has no bearing on th= e format. 10 inch reels (1200 feet) were by far the most common but occasion= allly the smaller 600 foot ones would be seen. and in rare cases (the infamou= s DEC TS05 comes to mind) 600' was all that they could handle. I=E2=80=99ll be the first to admit my question is a bit strange. Basically I= =E2=80=99m trying to use the date that various media types were first introdu= ced to show the oldest possible date for a bunch of media I=E2=80=99m trying = to date. The 9-Track tapes have been inventoried as =E2=80=9C700 6250 BPI=E2= =80=9D, and I know they=E2=80=99re the smaller reels. Doing some digging, it= looks like 6250BPI tapes date back at least as far as 1971 with the IBM 3400= series drives, I=E2=80=99d thought that 6250 came about in the 80=E2=80=99s. Zane --===============0343158124406449839==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 04:38:40 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Speaking of tapes.... Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 04:38:25 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <58965499-5175-8b83-90e6-d3e4d1842e2e@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5230687502040991469==" --===============5230687502040991469== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:11 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > I noticed in a Dectape 2 document that the tape drives are just DC100 > models. Are there any specific documents on what kinds of signals should > be coming out or into them? > > I'd like to fix this TU58. The drive unit from a TU58 is just the head, motor, tacho sensor and a couple of microswitches. It contains no electronics at all (unless you count the LED and phototransistor in the tacho sensor). All the electronics to handle the signals from those is on the controller board. This consists of a simple 8085-based system (IIRC, 8085 processor, 8155 RAM/IO, ROM, serial interface, etc) and the analogue read amplifier etc. -tony --===============5230687502040991469==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 8 05:22:50 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 21:22:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2034196439661604855==" --===============2034196439661604855== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/7/23 20:34, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Mar 7, 2023, at 5:32 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'm a bit puzzled by "6250 700'" because the reel size has no bearing on t= he format. 10 inch reels (1200 feet) were by far the most common but occasio= nallly the smaller 600 foot ones would be seen. and in rare cases (the infamo= us DEC TS05 comes to mind) 600' was all that they could handle. >=20 > I=E2=80=99ll be the first to admit my question is a bit strange. Basically= I=E2=80=99m trying to use the date that various media types were first intro= duced to show the oldest possible date for a bunch of media I=E2=80=99m tryin= g to date. The 9-Track tapes have been inventoried as =E2=80=9C700 6250 BPI= =E2=80=9D, and I know they=E2=80=99re the smaller reels. Doing some digging,= it looks like 6250BPI tapes date back at least as far as 1971 with the IBM 3= 400 series drives, I=E2=80=99d thought that 6250 came about in the 80=E2=80= =99s. 10.5" 2400' reels were the lingua franca since at least 1953. Companies bought them by the semi-trailer load. Quite often, just wrapped and palletized. Smaller reels (e.g. 5" and 7") were often used to economize (particularly when shipping; got a bunch of those). 2400' on a 1.5 mil mylar base was the most common, but you could find 3600' on 1.0 mil base. 1/2 tape adoption was typically a lot slower than the "bleeding edge" we're used to today. 7-track tapes were still common in the early 1980s, particularly if you were running older iron (CDC 6000/CYBER, UNIVAC 1100). Fortunately, the tape doesn't really care what you put on it, so long as the grain size of the oxide supported the recording density. I've handled tapes recorded at 556 that were labeled as 6250-certified. You have to appreciate the fact that tape was for many years, the preferred interchange medium between different computers. The IRS for years accepted tax returns prepared on 9 track tape, for example. I recall having to babysit the customer at McClellan AFB because the tapes written on CDC 669 drives weren't being read on the customer's'IBM 3420 drives. It turned out that the 669 when operating start-stop would "crowd" the first few frames of a block; the drive wasn't quite at speed when those were written. While the 669s could read them fine, the 3420s barfed. It eventually meant flying in one of the firmware techs to tweak things. "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway." Andrew Tannenbaum, Computer Networks, 3rd ed., p. 83. (paraphrasing Dr. Warren Jackson, Director, University of Toronto Computing Services (UTCS) circa 1985) --Chuck --===============2034196439661604855==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 11:24:56 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 05:24:40 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6974429113270436599==" --===============6974429113270436599== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. Thanks, Steve --===============6974429113270436599==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 11:33:23 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 11:33:16 +0000 Message-ID: <0adb01d951b1$c6962450$53c26cf0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7125300123434959132==" --===============7125300123434959132== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane Healy via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 4:35 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Zane Healy > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? >=20 > On Mar 7, 2023, at 5:32 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I'm a bit puzzled by "6250 700'" because the reel size has no bearing on = the > format. 10 inch reels (1200 feet) were by far the most common but > occasionallly the smaller 600 foot ones would be seen. and in rare cases (t= he > infamous DEC TS05 comes to mind) 600' was all that they could handle. >=20 > I=E2=80=99ll be the first to admit my question is a bit strange. Basically= I=E2=80=99m trying to use > the date that various media types were first introduced to show the oldest > possible date for a bunch of media I=E2=80=99m trying to date. The 9-Track= tapes have > been inventoried as =E2=80=9C700 6250 BPI=E2=80=9D, and I know they=E2=80= =99re the smaller reels. Doing > some digging, it looks like 6250BPI tapes date back at least as far as 1971= with > the IBM 3400 series drives, I=E2=80=99d thought that 6250 came about in the= 80=E2=80=99s. >=20 > Zane >=20 Our Honeywell H3200 had 1200BPI NRZI 7-track drives..... http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/datapro/70C-480-01_7404_Honeywell_200_= 2000.pdf page 13 onwards... Needed chrome tape.... Dave =20 --===============7125300123434959132==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 11:55:06 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 11:54:50 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3129089989573987301==" --===============3129089989573987301== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points : There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it into 2 parts. And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the best known parts of the international trade ? On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings, > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > Thanks, > Steve > --===============3129089989573987301==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Mar 8 12:25:41 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 07:25:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230308013007.2648E3AA8E1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1249639494919080030==" --===============1249639494919080030== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > I’m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape > > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700’ 9-Track tapes or DC600A > > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that > > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the > > spottier it is. > > For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages > are fairly useful. What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato?  Not at all like the audio cassettes later used on home computers. bill --===============1249639494919080030==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 12:36:06 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:35:50 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580E7D85886EB3D7C382B57EDB49=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4512113093452751710==" --===============4512113093452751710== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some information about the origin of CUTS here : https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/8099/whats-the-difference-= between-kansas-city-tape-standard-and-cuts I recall a Logabax computer (a french office / accounting system that seems to e completely forgotten) in about 1975 that had a built-in mechanism that used audio cassettes. The tapes, if played on an audio system, were a series of tones not unlike CUTS - I guess the idea of recording as audio something intended to be sent over the telephone system was fairly obvious. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:25=E2=80=AFPM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > > I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of vario= us tape > > > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or= DC600A > > > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that > > > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the > > > spottier it is. > > > > For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages > > are fairly useful. > > What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato? Not at all > like the > > audio cassettes later used on home computers. > > > bill > > > --===============4512113093452751710==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Mar 8 14:12:02 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:11:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580E7D85886EB3D7C382B57EDB49=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0905225272607637358==" --===============0905225272607637358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 7:25 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >> > I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various= tape >> > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or D= C600A >> > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that >> > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the >> > spottier it is. >>=20 >> For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages >> are fairly useful. >=20 > What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato? Not at all like t= he > audio cassettes later used on home computers. I'm not familiar with PLATO cassettes. Are those attached to terminals? The= oldest data cassettes I know of are on the TI Silent 733 terminals -- which = were thought of as paper tape emulation done on audio cassettes, at 300 bps. = But I've never heard of anything like that on PLATO. The closest similar th= ing I can think of is floppy disks, which were used as peripherals to store "= micro TUTOR" programs for some later terminals. The current PLATO emulation = at cyber1.org supports this. Do you have any documents describing the cassettes you mentioned? paul --===============0905225272607637358==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Mar 8 15:07:24 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:07:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2251086245437875977==" --===============2251086245437875977== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/2023 9:11 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 7:25 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >>> > I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of vario= us tape >>> > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or= DC600A >>> > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that >>> > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the >>> > spottier it is. >>> >>> For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages >>> are fairly useful. >> What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato? Not at all like = the >> audio cassettes later used on home computers. > I'm not familiar with PLATO cassettes. Are those attached to terminals? T= he oldest data cassettes I know of are on the TI Silent 733 terminals -- whic= h were thought of as paper tape emulation done on audio cassettes, at 300 bps= . But I've never heard of anything like that on PLATO. The closest similar = thing I can think of is floppy disks, which were used as peripherals to store= "micro TUTOR" programs for some later terminals. The current PLATO emulatio= n at cyber1.org supports this. > > Do you have any documents describing the cassettes you mentioned? > > =09 Nope.=C2=A0 No data.=C2=A0 Somewhere here in the house I still have a cassett= e.=C2=A0 They were just like audio cassettes but much sturdier.=C2=A0 And had slides on the= =20 back where you breakout the write-protect tabs on audio cassettes.=C2=A0 I haven't= =20 seen a Plato terminal since very early 80's which is when I acquired the one=20 tape I have.=C2=A0 I seem to remember that if you put it in an audio cassette player= =20 all you got was noise.=C2=A0 No recognizable patterns.=C2=A0 But I could be wrong as = that=20 was a long time ago. I was hoping someone here had more info on it as I have always been curious. bill --===============2251086245437875977==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 8 15:24:59 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 07:24:40 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6525510136722450364==" --===============6525510136722450364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your middle-s= chooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality video. I assu= me that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your daughter=E2=80= =99s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of computers that = ultimately led to today=E2=80=99s devices and software. For once, our kids ca= n say =E2=80=9Caha, so this is where home computers came from?=E2=80=9D :)=20 In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can see= that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology of even= ts or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked about US= , UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what=E2=80=99s the fine line of telli= ng the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you managed = to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and machines. Well= done! Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFGreetings, >=20 > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). >=20 > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZ9mgSVJZoFc >=20 > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. >=20 > Thanks, > Steve --===============6525510136722450364==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Mar 8 15:26:03 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:25:50 -0500 Message-ID: <3CCA287E-0882-48E9-B369-A89A6B4FCE80@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558097E76CABF77A16380025EDB49=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6694085038561999195==" --===============6694085038561999195== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 3/8/2023 9:11 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>=20 >>> On Mar 8, 2023, at 7:25 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >>>> > I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of vario= us tape >>>> > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or= DC600A >>>> > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that >>>> > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the >>>> > spottier it is. >>>>=20 >>>> For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages >>>> are fairly useful. >>> What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato? Not at all like= the >>> audio cassettes later used on home computers. >> I'm not familiar with PLATO cassettes. Are those attached to terminals? = The oldest data cassettes I know of are on the TI Silent 733 terminals -- whi= ch were thought of as paper tape emulation done on audio cassettes, at 300 bp= s. But I've never heard of anything like that on PLATO. The closest similar= thing I can think of is floppy disks, which were used as peripherals to stor= e "micro TUTOR" programs for some later terminals. The current PLATO emulati= on at cyber1.org supports this. >>=20 >> Do you have any documents describing the cassettes you mentioned? >>=20 >> =09 >=20 >=20 > Nope. No data. Somewhere here in the house I still have a cassette. They > were just like audio cassettes but much sturdier. And had slides on the ba= ck > where you breakout the write-protect tabs on audio cassettes. I haven't se= en > a Plato terminal since very early 80's which is when I acquired the one tap= e I > have. I seem to remember that if you put it in an audio cassette player al= l you > got was noise. No recognizable patterns. But I could be wrong as that was= a long > time ago. >=20 > I was hoping someone here had more info on it as I have always been curious. >=20 > bill I posted a question in the "public notes" file on Cyber1, we'll see if anyone= has any memories of this. On the "sturdier" and write protect slides, that rings a vague bell -- I thin= k the cassettes supplied with the Silent 733 terminals looked like that. paul --===============6694085038561999195==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Mar 8 16:31:54 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:31:44 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1854889478281465694==" --===============1854889478281465694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/7/23 22:34, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > I=E2=80=99ll be the first to admit my question is a bit strange. Basically= I=E2=80=99m trying to use the date that various media types were first intro= duced to show the oldest possible date for a bunch of media I=E2=80=99m tryin= g to date. The 9-Track tapes have been inventoried as =E2=80=9C700 6250 BPI= =E2=80=9D, and I know they=E2=80=99re the smaller reels. Doing some digging,= it looks like 6250BPI tapes date back at least as far as 1971 with the IBM 3= 400 series drives, I=E2=80=99d thought that 6250 came about in the 80=E2=80= =99s. Wow!=C2=A0 I'd love to see the 1971 vintage GCR tape controller,=20 it must have been the size of a 360 CPU!=C2=A0 We had a GCR=20 controller from Storage Tech. in 1982 or so that was the=20 same size as a PDP 11/44 large cabinet.=C2=A0 CDC Keystone drives=20 (92185) had it integrated into the 680x controller micro,=20 which I thought was pretty amazing. Jon --===============1854889478281465694==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Mar 8 16:42:26 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:42:21 -0600 Message-ID: <4f42a8db-e35b-81b5-2365-5cf111490193@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1482209680565866291==" --===============1482209680565866291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Speaking of compatibility, we had a 360/50 many ages ago, and it was "permitted" to put the tape controller on the multiplexer channel.  This prevented long tape operations from locking up the disk controller on the selector channel.  The model /50 only had one selector.  But, if there was too much traffic on the multiplexer, it could cause data late issues.  We tried to read some of those tapes on our PDP-11, and the controller couldn't do it.  I got some Magna-See, and found that there were little gaps in the data records. These were quite obvious visually, so at least several character spaces.  Apparently, IBM's tape controller had a 2-character FIFO and would only start processing the end of record after a LONG gap of at least 5-10 characters.  Our Datum controllers immediately looked for a CRC after a 2-char gap, and got a CRC/LRCC error when it hit those little gaps.  This would be on 800 BPI NRZI tapes, of course. Jon --===============1482209680565866291==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Mar 8 16:45:18 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:45:12 -0600 Message-ID: <074800cf-50f3-2322-c227-c5767cf3af75@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <0adb01d951b1$c6962450$53c26cf0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9211027728423243674==" --===============9211027728423243674== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/23 05:33, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: >> > Our Honeywell H3200 had 1200BPI NRZI 7-track drives..... > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/datapro/70C-480-01_7404_Honeywell_20= 0_2000.pdf > > page 13 onwards... Needed chrome tape.... > > Dave The reason NRZI topped out at 800 BPI on 9-track was skew.=C2=A0=20 If you ever adjusted the skew using a skew tape, you could=20 clearly SEE on a scope how close 800 BPI came to the limits=20 of tape weave (and it WAS close). Jon --===============9211027728423243674==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 16:54:16 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:54:02 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2695064916669555744==" --===============2695064916669555744== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian, > There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After a > while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for continuous play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used without question. The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!! Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might focus more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind of bio on the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces"). Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" (training kit Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the PC-8001 in '79), it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France flag for the Micral-N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we just couldn't cover every item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we debated to not have popup flags at all, but I felt it was important to note that there was international involvement here. -Steve On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points : > > There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After a > while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. > > It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if > they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it into > 2 parts. > > And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes > machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the > description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it did > have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia also had > clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any other > countries have a history that was more complex than picking the best known > parts of the international trade ? > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making > about > > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > > > Thanks, > > Steve > > > --===============2695064916669555744==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 17:05:42 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 11:05:27 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5806744112106874238==" --===============5806744112106874238== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tarek, > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high > quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on > the history of computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) You got it, the hope is to help awareness and be something acceptable for schools to use. And part of this started when my daughter asked me "what was the first home computer?" I just couldn't give a simple answer :) She did the background (her signature is at the bottom left, "Carrion" -- and its subtle, but the gray at the top and bottom was intended to represent silica sand) and picked most of the system arrangement. Thanks! Steve On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality > video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your > daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of > computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, > our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) > In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can > see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology of > events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked > about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what’s the fine line of > telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you > managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and > machines. Well done! > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Greetings, > > > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making > about > > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > > > Thanks, > > Steve > --===============5806744112106874238==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 8 17:20:39 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:20:26 -0800 Message-ID: <663ff9ff-fd08-3eb6-4cf2-c47b9db5fc65@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <4323012A-A762-42CA-9DF1-23AE553029F9@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0931144120006418846==" --===============0931144120006418846== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/23 06:19, Paul Koning wrote: > I wouldn't exclude those, certainly not if they are relevant to the evoluti= on of the technology. Are X1 tapes (and Eliott tapes if they are the same fo= rmat, which I don't know) in some way anticipating LINCtape and DECtape? Are= they an independent invention of roughly the same concept? For that matter,= would you exclude DECtape on the grounds that it's single vendor? I hope no= t. For that matter, I suspect the Uniservo I format is specific to Univac, y= et you can't very well exclude that from a history of magnetic tape data reco= rding. I view "captive formats" such as DECtape to be evolutionary dead ends. Consider, for example, the Datamatic 1000 tapes--I doubt that more than a handful of people here have ever heard of the system. A captive format. Or the early Uniservo metal tapes? Or the tapes used in the IBM 2321 Data Cell or 3850 MSS? Captive formats and evolutionary dead-ends. How about the stuff that never made it out of the lab? Such as the CDC SCROLL? I suspect that I may be one of few who even have heard of the beast--yet it was included in our forward-looking boilerplate in STAR proposals. How about the 9 track 1/2" 3200 fci tapes? Not mentioned yet. Quarter-inch cartridge tapes were quite varied. Although looking the same at first glance, there were significant differences. Consider the Alphamat...Zetamat 3M series of quarter inch tapes. (e.g. DC600HC). No optical sensing of BOT/EOT/media type holes--all done with preformatting. Those were popular with ADIC crowd--I have a couple of those drives in the eventual case that someone digs a tape up from the trash heap of history. How about the adapters that allowed use of VHS cassette equipment for backup? All dead-ends. Before disks were affordable, or even available, half-inch tape was used as primary storage. Consider the 7090 IBSYS shops--all tape operations. --Chuck --===============0931144120006418846==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Mar 8 17:42:48 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:42:36 -0500 Message-ID: <56347354-B8DD-406B-8F62-7E10B779EEE0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <663ff9ff-fd08-3eb6-4cf2-c47b9db5fc65@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1537086024210253981==" --===============1537086024210253981== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 3/8/23 06:19, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 >=20 >> I wouldn't exclude those, certainly not if they are relevant to the evolut= ion of the technology. Are X1 tapes (and Eliott tapes if they are the same f= ormat, which I don't know) in some way anticipating LINCtape and DECtape? Ar= e they an independent invention of roughly the same concept? For that matter= , would you exclude DECtape on the grounds that it's single vendor? I hope n= ot. For that matter, I suspect the Uniservo I format is specific to Univac, = yet you can't very well exclude that from a history of magnetic tape data rec= ording. >=20 > I view "captive formats" such as DECtape to be evolutionary dead ends. >=20 > Consider, for example, the Datamatic 1000 tapes--I doubt that more than > a handful of people here have ever heard of the system. A captive format. >=20 > Or the early Uniservo metal tapes? I would disagree with that blanket assertion, for two reasons. One is that s= omething isn't an "evolutionary dead end" only if nothing later was inspired = by it and constructed, to some extent, along similar lines. In that sense th= e Uniservo tapes are not at all a dead end; instead, they are the ancestor of= all later tapes. Properties like metal vs. plastic media and 6 tracks vs. 7= or 9 or more are details. Second, I would consider a format to be significant if it had a major market = presence and major place in the technology space. In that sense, DECtape I c= learly belongs -- being either the primary or a significant secondary storage= device for a decade or two of some of the world's most successful computer l= ines. Similarly, is DLT a "dead end"? It was captive to some extent until it sprea= d out, but then LTO replaced it. On the other hand, isn't LTO clearly an evo= lutionary variant of DLT? I'd agree that there are a number of other formats that were neither signific= ant players nor a significant influence on later work. The CDC 14-track tape= s would fit that description, and the Eliot or X1 10-track tapes most likely = as well. But I would argue that "if it wasn't an industry or ISO standard it= doesn't count" is too restrictive a view, especially if you aim to produce a= history of the technology space. paul --===============1537086024210253981==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 17:54:17 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 17:54:02 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6529203983173942006==" --===============6529203983173942006== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like that you've included machines like the HP and IBM - sometimes these histories start with the Altair as being the first one at an affordable price, but I'm sure those desktop machines got to a lot of scientific homes before the enthusiasts machines began to appear. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:05=E2=80=AFPM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Tarek, > > > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high > > quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, > and your daughter=E2=80=99s friends. It would help raise awareness on > > the history of computers that ultimately led to today=E2=80=99s devices a= nd > software. For once, our kids can say =E2=80=9Caha, so this is where home co= mputers > came from?=E2=80=9D :) > > You got it, the hope is to help awareness and be something acceptable for > schools to use. And part of this started when my daughter asked me "what > was the first home computer?" I just couldn't give a simple answer :) > She did the background (her signature is at the bottom left, "Carrion" -- > and its subtle, but the gray at the top and bottom was intended to > represent silica sand) and picked most of the system arrangement. > > > Thanks! > Steve > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25=E2=80=AFAM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality > > video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your > > daughter=E2=80=99s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history = of > > computers that ultimately led to today=E2=80=99s devices and software. Fo= r once, > > our kids can say =E2=80=9Caha, so this is where home computers came from?= =E2=80=9D :) > > In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can > > see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology > of > > events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked > > about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what=E2=80=99s the fine l= ine of > > telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you > > managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and > > machines. Well done! > > > > Regards, > > Tarek Hoteit > > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFGreetings, > > > > > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making > > about > > > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > > > > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZ9mgSVJZoFc > > > > > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > > > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Steve > > > --===============6529203983173942006==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 8 17:59:23 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:59:05 -0800 Message-ID: <1EC6016E-65ED-4EDE-9776-37374B7EAE7E@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7834544060886912788==" --===============7834544060886912788== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable She made you proud!! If all our kids can get as excited and curious about the= history of computers as your daughter then the future will be so bright.=20 We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school timer= s, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFTarek, >=20 >> This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high >> quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, > and your daughter=E2=80=99s friends. It would help raise awareness on >> the history of computers that ultimately led to today=E2=80=99s devices and > software. For once, our kids can say =E2=80=9Caha, so this is where home co= mputers > came from?=E2=80=9D :) >=20 > You got it, the hope is to help awareness and be something acceptable for > schools to use. And part of this started when my daughter asked me "what > was the first home computer?" I just couldn't give a simple answer :) > She did the background (her signature is at the bottom left, "Carrion" -- > and its subtle, but the gray at the top and bottom was intended to > represent silica sand) and picked most of the system arrangement. >=20 >=20 > Thanks! > Steve >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25=E2=80=AFAM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your >> middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality >> video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your >> daughter=E2=80=99s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of >> computers that ultimately led to today=E2=80=99s devices and software. For= once, >> our kids can say =E2=80=9Caha, so this is where home computers came from?= =E2=80=9D :) >> In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can >> see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology of >> events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked >> about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what=E2=80=99s the fine li= ne of >> telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you >> managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and >> machines. Well done! >>=20 >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >>=20 >>> On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFGreetings, >>>=20 >>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making >> about >>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). >>>=20 >>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZ9mgSVJZoFc >>>=20 >>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the >>> final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Steve >>=20 --===============7834544060886912788==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 8 18:02:39 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:02:25 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <56347354-B8DD-406B-8F62-7E10B779EEE0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3924835989911491584==" --===============3924835989911491584== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/23 09:42, Paul Koning wrote: > Second, I would consider a format to be significant if it had a major marke= t presence and major place in the technology space. In that sense, DECtape I= clearly belongs -- being either the primary or a significant secondary stora= ge device for a decade or two of some of the world's most successful computer= lines. And all of them DEC. No IBM, CDC, UNIVAC, etc. As to what it inspired, I can't say. > Similarly, is DLT a "dead end"? It was captive to some extent until it spr= ead out, but then LTO replaced it. On the other hand, isn't LTO clearly an e= volutionary variant of DLT? But DLT was used in systems made by various manufacturers. Yes, it originated at DEC, purchased by Quantum and used on various systems. In fact, Quantum probably made the bulk of the drives, not DEC. Being a cross-vendor interchange medium, I'd include it. The same for DDS and 8mm (Exabyte) media. Exabyte didn't make computer systems, so it necessarily had to be cross-vendor. DDS is, of course, DAT re-imagined. How about the 2mm Pereos tapes? Never really took hold and used Sony audio mechanisms. I'd call that a dead-end, not being aware of anything that it inspired. --Chuck --===============3924835989911491584==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 8 18:08:11 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:07:58 -0800 Message-ID: <87b74b98-932d-f7e0-74ea-067aee9b9397@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <56347354-B8DD-406B-8F62-7E10B779EEE0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8147267305214464608==" --===============8147267305214464608== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca. 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century. A lack of foresight on the part of the script writers? What can we predict for the year 2250? --Chuck --===============8147267305214464608==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Wed Mar 8 18:09:36 2023 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 18:09:30 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8445084862596438865==" --===============8445084862596438865== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daughter would be= great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am right about t= he computer narrator, aren't I?).=20 -----Original Message----- From: Steve Lewis via cctalk =20 Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Steve Lewis Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Adrian, > There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After=20 > a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for continuous play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used without q= uestion. The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!! Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might focus m= ore on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind of bio on = the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces"). Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" (training kit= Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the PC-8001 in '79), i= t probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France flag for the Micral-N = -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we just couldn't cover every= item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we debated to not have popup flags= at all, but I felt it was important to note that there was international inv= olvement here. -Steve On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55=E2=80=AFAM Adrian Godwin via cctalk < cctalk(a)cl= assiccmp.org> wrote: > Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points : > > There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After=20 > a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. > > It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if=20 > they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it=20 > into > 2 parts. > > And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes=20 > machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the=20 > description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it=20 > did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia=20 > also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any=20 > other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the=20 > best known parts of the international trade ? > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24=E2=80=AFAM Steve Lewis via cctalk <=20 > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been=20 > > making > about > > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZ9mgSVJZoFc > > > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render=20 > > the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > > > Thanks, > > Steve > > > --===============8445084862596438865==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 18:19:25 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 18:19:19 +0000 Message-ID: <0dc001d951ea$80403930$80c0ab90$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <87b74b98-932d-f7e0-74ea-067aee9b9397@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3027690357110445438==" --===============3027690357110445438== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 6:08 PM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Chuck Guzis > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? > > I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca. > 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century. Yes, but Space 1999 still had slide rules.. > > A lack of foresight on the part of the script writers? > > What can we predict for the year 2250? > > --Chuck Dave --===============3027690357110445438==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 8 18:32:58 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:32:48 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0dc001d951ea$80403930$80c0ab90$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4181792165357389030==" --===============4181792165357389030== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/23 10:19, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Yes, but Space 1999 still had slide rules.. I thought this discussion by one of the JPL people working on the tape mechanism for Voyager (1980) might be interesting to some: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/2053/how-was-magnetic-tape-decay-pr= evented-in-voyager-1 --Chuck --===============4181792165357389030==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 18:35:27 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:35:10 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5642812213577199288==" --===============5642812213577199288== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 6:12=E2=80=AFAM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > I'm not familiar with PLATO cassettes. Are those attached to terminals? > The oldest data cassettes I know of are on the TI Silent 733 terminals -- > which were thought of as paper tape emulation done on audio cassettes, at > 300 bps. But I've never heard of anything like that on PLATO. The closest > similar thing I can think of is floppy disks, which were used as > peripherals to store "micro TUTOR" programs for some later terminals. The > current PLATO emulation at cyber1.org supports this. > The Silent 700 uses digital cassette tapes. I'm not sure what the actual difference is between them and audio cassettes except for the notch on the top side. Sellam --===============5642812213577199288==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Mar 8 18:37:14 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 11:54:16 -0600 Message-ID: <6533f21a-961a-37af-78d7-28987801e4f7@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <56347354-B8DD-406B-8F62-7E10B779EEE0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7615000588605695806==" --===============7615000588605695806== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hate to throw a spanner in the works but no one has mentioned U-Matic=20 tapes.=C2=A0 Normally used for video recording the early CD audio and CD-Rom = industry encoded the digital image on to U-Matic tapes which were then=20 used to drive the laser for writing to the CD Master. On 3/8/2023 11:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 3/8/23 06:19, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> I wouldn't exclude those, certainly not if they are relevant to the evolu= tion of the technology. Are X1 tapes (and Eliott tapes if they are the same = format, which I don't know) in some way anticipating LINCtape and DECtape? A= re they an independent invention of roughly the same concept? For that matte= r, would you exclude DECtape on the grounds that it's single vendor? I hope = not. For that matter, I suspect the Uniservo I format is specific to Univac,= yet you can't very well exclude that from a history of magnetic tape data re= cording. >> I view "captive formats" such as DECtape to be evolutionary dead ends. >> >> Consider, for example, the Datamatic 1000 tapes--I doubt that more than >> a handful of people here have ever heard of the system. A captive format. >> >> Or the early Uniservo metal tapes? > I would disagree with that blanket assertion, for two reasons. One is that= something isn't an "evolutionary dead end" only if nothing later was inspire= d by it and constructed, to some extent, along similar lines. In that sense = the Uniservo tapes are not at all a dead end; instead, they are the ancestor = of all later tapes. Properties like metal vs. plastic media and 6 tracks vs.= 7 or 9 or more are details. > > Second, I would consider a format to be significant if it had a major marke= t presence and major place in the technology space. In that sense, DECtape I= clearly belongs -- being either the primary or a significant secondary stora= ge device for a decade or two of some of the world's most successful computer= lines. > > Similarly, is DLT a "dead end"? It was captive to some extent until it spr= ead out, but then LTO replaced it. On the other hand, isn't LTO clearly an e= volutionary variant of DLT? > > I'd agree that there are a number of other formats that were neither signif= icant players nor a significant influence on later work. The CDC 14-track ta= pes would fit that description, and the Eliot or X1 10-track tapes most likel= y as well. But I would argue that "if it wasn't an industry or ISO standard = it doesn't count" is too restrictive a view, especially if you aim to produce= a history of the technology space. > > paul > --===============7615000588605695806==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 8 18:40:08 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 11:39:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87b74b98-932d-f7e0-74ea-067aee9b9397@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4293923624946401694==" --===============4293923624946401694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-03-08 11:07 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca. > 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century. > > A lack of foresight on the part of the script writers? > > What can we predict for the year 2250? > > --Chuck > The use of the old tape drives as 'computers' still found in the movies. Ben. --===============4293923624946401694==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 8 18:43:20 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 10:42:59 -0800 Message-ID: <7C3CF687-E9A6-4A62-8638-1C94A4A39415@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB5269C78650D70001AC742B01B5B49=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4135192881623662260==" --===============4135192881623662260== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. I second that. Having the daughter as a narrator is perfect. No offense= , Steve.=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:09 AM, W2HX via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daught= er would be great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am ri= ght about the computer narrator, aren't I?).=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk =20 > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Steve Lewis > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers >=20 > Adrian, >=20 >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After=20 >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. >=20 > Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One > idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for continuous > play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons > since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used without= question. >=20 > The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!! > Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might focus = more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind of bio on= the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces"). >=20 > Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" (training k= it Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the PC-8001 in '79),= it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France flag for the Micral-= N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we just couldn't cover eve= ry item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we debated to not have popup fla= gs at all, but I felt it was important to note that there was international i= nvolvement here. >=20 > -Steve >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55=E2=80=AFAM Adrian Godwin via cctalk < cctalk(a= )classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points : >>=20 >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After=20 >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. >>=20 >> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if=20 >> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it=20 >> into >> 2 parts. >>=20 >> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes=20 >> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the=20 >> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it=20 >> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia=20 >> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any=20 >> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the=20 >> best known parts of the international trade ? >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24=E2=80=AFAM Steve Lewis via cctalk <=20 >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >>> Greetings, >>>=20 >>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been=20 >>> making >> about >>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). >>>=20 >>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZ9mgSVJZoFc >>>=20 >>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render=20 >>> the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Steve >>>=20 >>=20 --===============4135192881623662260==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Wed Mar 8 18:51:13 2023 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:42:58 -0600 Message-ID: <3712130f-baf8-c7b9-4cc9-80cedb6db219@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <2571b25e-837e-bd5d-a4d7-fa3b4ce006e5@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4422515262069543000==" --===============4422515262069543000== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Holy smokes. Poking around on these disk images it looks like these system have a FULL DECNET FILE SERVER as well." Are you referring to DECnet FAL on the PRO, or the little known PRO Cluster software? -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============4422515262069543000==-- From drb@msu.edu Wed Mar 8 19:03:22 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:03:18 -0500 Message-ID: <20230308190318.E60D23ACF35@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4711128475379027561==" --===============4711128475379027561== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Wow! I'd love to see the 1971 vintage GCR tape controller, it must > have been the size of a 360 CPU! We had a GCR controller from > Storage Tech. in 1982 or so that was the same size as a PDP 11/44 > large cabinet. CDC Keystone drives (92185) had it integrated into > the 680x controller micro, which I thought was pretty amazing. The IBM history pages seem to say that the initial 3420 offerings were 1600, in 1971, and that later models added GCR in 1973. The control unit, 3803, was similarly sized to the 3420 drive, iirc a bit shorter, but very roughly the same occupied square footage. https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3420.html De --===============4711128475379027561==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 19:13:29 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 13:13:13 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7C3CF687-E9A6-4A62-8638-1C94A4A39415@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1940439066241528350==" --===============1940439066241528350== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very informative and enjoyable. I echo the narration sentiment, maybe a little more life in the voice would hold attention. My only other comment is some of the information pictures go by pretty quickly. It'd be neat even in a slower slideshow version so I could take the time to read the ads and pictures :-) Of course that's coming from an enthusiast perspective. Regular viewer runtime suggestions are good (your 10-15m YouTube algorithm). On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 12:43 PM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > Yes. I second that. Having the daughter as a narrator is perfect. No > offense, Steve. > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:09 AM, W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFI loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daug= hter > would be great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am > right about the computer narrator, aren't I?). > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Steve Lewis > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers > > > > Adrian, > > > >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After > >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. > > > > Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One > > idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for > continuous > > play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons > > since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used > without question. > > > > The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!! > > Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might > focus more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind > of bio on the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces"). > > > > Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" > (training kit Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the > PC-8001 in '79), it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France > flag for the Micral-N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we > just couldn't cover every item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we > debated to not have popup flags at all, but I felt it was important to note > that there was international involvement here. > > > > -Steve > > > > > > > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55=E2=80=AFAM Adrian Godwin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points : > >> > >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After > >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. > >> > >> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if > >> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it > >> into > >> 2 parts. > >> > >> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes > >> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the > >> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it > >> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia > >> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any > >> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the > >> best known parts of the international trade ? > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24=E2=80=AFAM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Greetings, > >>> > >>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been > >>> making > >> about > >>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > >>> > >>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZ9mgSVJZoFc > >>> > >>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render > >>> the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Steve > >>> > >> > --===============1940439066241528350==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 19:14:14 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:13:58 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7C3CF687-E9A6-4A62-8638-1C94A4A39415@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8773460216414072050==" --===============8773460216414072050== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you should consider mentioning this somehow. Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor installed. A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. Bill On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 1:43 PM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > Yes. I second that. Having the daughter as a narrator is perfect. No > offense, Steve. > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:09 AM, W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daughter > would be great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am > right about the computer narrator, aren't I?). > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Steve Lewis > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers > > > > Adrian, > > > >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After > >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. > > > > Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One > > idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for > continuous > > play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons > > since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used > without question. > > > > The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!! > > Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might > focus more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind > of bio on the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces"). > > > > Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" > (training kit Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the > PC-8001 in '79), it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France > flag for the Micral-N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we > just couldn't cover every item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we > debated to not have popup flags at all, but I felt it was important to note > that there was international involvement here. > > > > -Steve > > > > > > > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points : > >> > >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After > >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. > >> > >> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if > >> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it > >> into > >> 2 parts. > >> > >> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes > >> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the > >> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it > >> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia > >> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any > >> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the > >> best known parts of the international trade ? > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Greetings, > >>> > >>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been > >>> making > >> about > >>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > >>> > >>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > >>> > >>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render > >>> the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Steve > >>> > >> > --===============8773460216414072050==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Mar 8 19:25:33 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:25:21 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1431224326163383637==" --===============1431224326163383637== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing scene > in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using the > machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people whonowned > surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you should > consider mentioning this somehow. >=20 > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > installed. >=20 > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type work, > not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; the PLA= TO system is a major source of early games, documented in several places. paul --===============1431224326163383637==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 19:37:06 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 19:37:01 +0000 Message-ID: <0e1f01d951f5$5b32e600$1198b200$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3782823308942653613==" --===============3782823308942653613== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Paul Koning > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing > > scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using > > the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people > > whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you > > should consider mentioning this somehow. > > > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > > installed. > > > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. > > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type > > work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. > > Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; the > PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several places. Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan Turing insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. He also wrote the "love letters" program..... .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1.... > > paul Dave --===============3782823308942653613==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Mar 8 19:39:47 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:39:39 -0500 Message-ID: <18854238-4344-4152-A884-45AAE51FE5BC@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <0e1f01d951f5$5b32e600$1198b200$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7770013932025095970==" --===============7770013932025095970== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, wrote: >=20 > ... > Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan Turing > insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. > In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > He also wrote the "love letters" program..... Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days ago = about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown version of = the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. paul --===============7770013932025095970==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 19:41:29 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:41:15 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0e1f01d951f5$5b32e600$1198b200$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4960612707561989611==" --===============4960612707561989611== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My point was that "home computing" does not equal playing computer games at home. That is something that evolved into the early 90's. Games were much less of a thing in home computing of the 70's. THere are always exceptions, there are always variations. It's not that games weren't there either, it's just that economically if you wanted to play games in the 70;s you bought a console or went to the arcade. Home computer games were inferior in the earliest versions b On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:37 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Koning via cctalk > > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM > > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > Cc: Paul Koning > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers > > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > > > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing > > > scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using > > > the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people > > > whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you > > > should consider mentioning this somehow. > > > > > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > > > installed. > > > > > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do > today. > > > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type > > > work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. > > > > Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; the > > PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several > places. > > Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan > Turing > insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. > In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > He also wrote the "love letters" program..... > .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1.... > > > > > paul > > Dave > > --===============4960612707561989611==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 19:44:06 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:43:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8781092283705601133==" --===============8781092283705601133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SO - To return to the video feedback - I think the author should comment on the evolution of what "Home Computing" is/was, the evolution in demographics of the home computer user, the cost, etc. Needs perspective Bill On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > My point was that "home computing" does not equal playing computer games > at home. That is something that evolved into the early 90's. Games were > much less of a thing in home computing of the 70's. THere are always > exceptions, there are always variations. It's not that games weren't there > either, it's just that economically if you wanted to play games in the 70;s > you bought a console or went to the arcade. Home computer games were > inferior in the earliest versions > b > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:37 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Paul Koning via cctalk >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM >> > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >> > Cc: Paul Koning >> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers >> > >> > >> > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk >> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the >> > > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing >> > > scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using >> > > the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people >> > > whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you >> > > should consider mentioning this somehow. >> > > >> > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor >> > > installed. >> > > >> > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do >> today. >> > > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type >> > > work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore >> users. >> > >> > Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; >> the >> > PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several >> places. >> >> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan >> Turing >> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. >> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the >> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. >> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. >> He also wrote the "love letters" program..... >> .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1.... >> >> > >> > paul >> >> Dave >> >> --===============8781092283705601133==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Wed Mar 8 19:45:01 2023 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 11:36:17 -0800 Message-ID: <006d01d951f5$44fba480$cef2ed80$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <228F2AB7-2E45-4125-A37D-61C578F86E13@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9031063235381308213==" --===============9031063235381308213== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you want authoritative sources I highly recommend: * IBM J. RES. DEVELOP. =E2=80=A2 VOL. 25 =E2=80=A2 NO. 5 =E2=80=A2 SEP= TEMBER 1981, has an article =E2=80=9CInnovations in the Design of Magnetic Ta= pe Subsystems=E2=80=9D * IBM Journal of Research and Development Vol. 47, No. 4, July 2003 ha= s an article =E2=80=9CFifty years of IBM innovation with information storage = on magnetic tape=E2=80=9D * Magnetic Recording, the First 100 Years, Daniel et al, Chapter 17, D= ata Storage On Tape * Magnetic Recording, Vol II: Computer Data Storage, Mee et al, Chapte= r 4 Data Storage * The Complete Handbook of Magnetic Recording, Jorgensen, Parts 4 and = 5 which deal with tape materials and transports The first ref above gives the date of IBM=E2=80=99s shipment of 6250 bpi as 1= 973, AFAIK that became the industry standard for =C2=BD r-t-r tape I have all of the above in my library and might be able to help u off line if= you have specific questions. =20 I=E2=80=99ve worked on tape articles in Wikipedia and they are for the most p= art pretty good. If u find any errors or omissions I hope u will update =20 If you are willing and able to share I=E2=80=99d like to see yr results =20 Good luck =20 Tom =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Zane Healy [mailto:healyzh(a)avanthar.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 5:05 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: [cctalk] Age of Tape Formats? =20 I=EF=BF=BDm working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape = formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=EF=BF=BD 9-Track tapes or DC600A = cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that documents this= ? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is. =20 Zane =20 =20 =20 --===============9031063235381308213==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Mar 8 19:49:56 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 13:49:39 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <18854238-4344-4152-A884-45AAE51FE5BC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9051069935820923482==" --===============9051069935820923482== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and=20 60's https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/restoring-the-heathkit-es-400-comp= uter https://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/heath.analog.1956.102646297.pdf https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/May2016_Heathkit_Restoration On 3/8/2023 1:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, wrote: >> >> ... >> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan Turi= ng >> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. >> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the >> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. >> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. >> He also wrote the "love letters" program..... > Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days ag= o about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown version o= f the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. > > paul > --===============9051069935820923482==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 19:53:06 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:52:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4659539474235733063==" --===============4659539474235733063== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and kenbak was not the first "home computer" when will that one die I don't know. ..NRI 832 pre-dates by at least 6 months :-) On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:49=E2=80=AFPM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and > 60's > > > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/restoring-the-heathkit-es-400-co= mputer > > https://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/heath.analog.1956.102646297.pdf > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/May2016_Heathkit_Restoration > > > > On 3/8/2023 1:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, < > dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan > Turing > >> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > >> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > >> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 > screen. > >> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > >> He also wrote the "love letters" program..... > > Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days > ago about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown > version of the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. > > > > paul > > > > --===============4659539474235733063==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 8 19:54:23 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 11:54:05 -0800 Message-ID: <8A90A5CD-5D9B-41F2-89D4-71549752C530@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0617618739423944968==" --===============0617618739423944968== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don=E2=80=99t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is= . One can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue= that the Altair is the first. It is unfair to make the author of the video b= e 100% perfect because it is too technical / debatable for the video: is it t= he microprocessor first? Or is it usage? Home vs, say, the Homebrew club, vs = Plato terminals etc. I personally think that the video is great as is, regard= less of the consensus on what truly is a home computer and what truly its evo= lution (eg different books are not even consistent in their story telling). M= aybe, this discussion leads to more videos by Steve and his daughter, or mayb= e it is time now that middle schoolers can tell us =E2=80=9Cwhat do THEY thin= k is a home or a personal computer=E2=80=9D.=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:44 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFSO - To return to the video feedback - I think the author should c= omment on > the evolution of what "Home Computing" is/was, the evolution in > demographics of the home computer user, the cost, etc. Needs perspective > Bill >=20 >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:41=E2=80=AFPM Bill Degnan wrote: >>=20 >> My point was that "home computing" does not equal playing computer games >> at home. That is something that evolved into the early 90's. Games were >> much less of a thing in home computing of the 70's. THere are always >> exceptions, there are always variations. It's not that games weren't there >> either, it's just that economically if you wanted to play games in the 70;s >> you bought a console or went to the arcade. Home computer games were >> inferior in the earliest versions >> b >>=20 >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:37=E2=80=AFPM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Paul Koning via cctalk >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM >>>> To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >>>> Cc: Paul Koning >>>> Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk >>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the >>>>> microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing >>>>> scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using >>>>> the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people >>>>> whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you >>>>> should consider mentioning this somehow. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor >>>>> installed. >>>>>=20 >>>>> A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do >>> today. >>>>> The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type >>>>> work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore >>> users. >>>>=20 >>>> Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; >>> the >>>> PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several >>> places. >>>=20 >>> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan >>> Turing >>> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. >>> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the >>> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. >>> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. >>> He also wrote the "love letters" program..... >>> .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1.... >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> paul >>>=20 >>> Dave >>>=20 >>>=20 --===============0617618739423944968==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Mar 8 19:55:37 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 13:55:30 -0600 Message-ID: <888016134.84605.1678305330041@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <1EC6016E-65ED-4EDE-9776-37374B7EAE7E@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1917908911324077092==" --===============1917908911324077092== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >=20 > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school tim= ers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! >=20 > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit >=20 That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long tim= e. Will --===============1917908911324077092==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:00:29 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:00:09 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <006d01d951f5$44fba480$cef2ed80$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7981752606407060884==" --===============7981752606407060884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, What an excellent bibliography for the topic. Thank you. Sellam On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Tom Gardner via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > If you want authoritative sources I highly recommend: > > * IBM J. RES. DEVELOP. =E2=80=A2 VOL. 25 =E2=80=A2 NO. 5 =E2=80=A2 S= EPTEMBER 1981, has an > article =E2=80=9CInnovations in the Design of Magnetic Tape Subsystems=E2= =80=9D > > * IBM Journal of Research and Development Vol. 47, No. 4, July 2003 > has an article =E2=80=9CFifty years of IBM innovation with information stor= age on > magnetic tape=E2=80=9D > > * Magnetic Recording, the First 100 Years, Daniel et al, Chapter > 17, Data Storage On Tape > > * Magnetic Recording, Vol II: Computer Data Storage, Mee et al, > Chapter 4 Data Storage > > * The Complete Handbook of Magnetic Recording, Jorgensen, Parts 4 > and 5 which deal with tape materials and transports > > The first ref above gives the date of IBM=E2=80=99s shipment of 6250 bpi as= 1973, > AFAIK that became the industry standard for =C2=BD r-t-r tape > > I have all of the above in my library and might be able to help u off line > if you have specific questions. > > > > I=E2=80=99ve worked on tape articles in Wikipedia and they are for the most= part > pretty good. If u find any errors or omissions I hope u will update > > > > If you are willing and able to share I=E2=80=99d like to see yr results > > > > Good luck > > > > Tom > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane Healy [mailto:healyzh(a)avanthar.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 5:05 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: [cctalk] Age of Tape Formats? > > > > I=EF=BF=BDm working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=EF=BF=BD 9-Track tapes or DC600A > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that documents > this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > --===============7981752606407060884==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:13:30 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:13:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2719948308599151361==" --===============2719948308599151361== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:49=E2=80=AFAM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and > 60's > > > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/restoring-the-heathkit-es-400-co= mputer > > https://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/heath.analog.1956.102646297.pdf > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/May2016_Heathkit_Restoration > > To say nothing of the Digi-Comp 1, the MINIVAC 601/6010, the GENIAC/BRAINIAC, and of course, SIMON (1950-51). Sellam > > On 3/8/2023 1:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, < > dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan > Turing > >> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > >> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > >> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 > screen. > >> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > >> He also wrote the "love letters" program..... > > Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days > ago about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown > version of the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. > > > > paul > > > > --===============2719948308599151361==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:16:00 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:15:45 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8A90A5CD-5D9B-41F2-89D4-71549752C530@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4651884486632821886==" --===============4651884486632821886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54=E2=80=AFAM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don=E2=80=99t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer = is. One > can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue > that the Altair is the first. It is unfair to make the author of the video > be 100% perfect because it is too Ha! Are you kidding, Tarek? This is the Classic Computers Mailing List. Pedantic arguments are a mandatory feature here :D > technical / debatable for the video: is it the microprocessor first? Or is > it usage? Home vs, say, the Homebrew club, vs Plato terminals etc. I > personally think that the video is great as is, regardless of the consensus > on what truly is a home computer and what truly its evolution (eg different > books are not even consistent in their story telling). Maybe, this > discussion leads to more videos by Steve and his daughter, or maybe it is > time now that middle schoolers can tell us =E2=80=9Cwhat do THEY think is a= home or > a personal computer=E2=80=9D. > All things considered, I agree that it's a good video. Sellam --===============4651884486632821886==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:18:30 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:18:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8A90A5CD-5D9B-41F2-89D4-71549752C530@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5574653894840543394==" --===============5574653894840543394== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One > can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue > that the Altair is the first. A very good argument could be made that it was the LINC (1962) ==> https://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/linc/ieee-article.htm At least one of the systems built ended up in the actual home of one of the engineers: quite possibly the first "home" computer. Sellam --===============5574653894840543394==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 8 20:21:38 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:21:20 -0800 Message-ID: <23744708-2D0F-449F-B711-8C3D6065BE57@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: <888016134.84605.1678305330041@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6492420109733723850==" --===============6492420109733723850== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Bill! When Steve posted the video about the history of computers, I thought somethi= ng like =E2=80=9Ccool to see another video=E2=80=9D But when he mentioned a m= iddle schooler helping, that changed the entire perspective for me. I am clos= e to 50. I have seen and been part of vintage and classic computing. I still = enjoy them and my kids, who are now 19 and 17, have heard me talking a lot ab= out computing. Yet, they had no curiosity on any of those. =E2=80=9CIt is a d= ad=E2=80=99s thing=E2=80=9D, they would say. Same thing happened with my sibl= ings at a younger age. I am a Gen X. My two siblings are one a Gen X and anot= her a Gen Y. My kids are a Gen Z. No one in my family had any interests. Then= I get frustrated when I hear my nieces, nephews or even my kids saying =E2= =80=9CChatGpt is so cool=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CTikTok does magic with the vide= os=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CInstagram has these cool filters.=E2=80=9D Yet, they= have no clue about everything or anything in tech that led to those creation= s. I try to bring back the topics of bits, bytes, ram, cpu, inventions in tec= h. They respond with nothing but a blank-I-am-bored face. None of these youn= ger generation are even curious about the Ataris, the Vectrex, the old machin= es, or even the legacy books that is on our shelves. Then I see the message f= rom Steve about his middle schooler. That is amazing. That is awesome! I rare= ly type on this newsgroup or any newsgroup. Steve=E2=80=99s post (and subsequ= ent update) about his middle schooler being curious and is helping with the v= ideo has made my day! I hope it did for all other fellow old-timers!=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:55 AM, wrcooke(a)wrcooke.net wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >>> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>=20 >> We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school ti= mers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! >>=20 >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >>=20 >=20 > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long t= ime. >=20 > Will --===============6492420109733723850==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:22:19 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:21:59 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <888016134.84605.1678305330041@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6934844242884269531==" --===============6934844242884269531== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55=E2=80=AFAM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > > > Regards, > > Tarek Hoteit > > > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > time. > > Will > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the planet? Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to inherently naive children. Sellam --===============6934844242884269531==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:31:54 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 15:31:39 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8933852767091003640==" --===============8933852767091003640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic computer that one person could operate. Bill On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:22 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > > > > > Regards, > > > Tarek Hoteit > > > > > > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > > time. > > > > Will > > > > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. > > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her > generation. > > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? > > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. > > Sellam > --===============8933852767091003640==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:37:57 2023 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 15:37:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2892486796319499227==" --===============2892486796319499227== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-03-08 2:13 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing scene > in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using the > machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people whonowned > surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you should > consider mentioning this somehow. > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > installed. > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type work, > not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. > > Bill > > Not to mention people who designed and built their own processors, I recall Byte had them as a feature article in an issue with a memorable front cover picture of a cascade small boards joined by jumper wire flowing to the floor off a table, that was apparently a working computer. Paul. --===============2892486796319499227==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Mar 8 20:40:10 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:40:06 -0600 Message-ID: <1529361434.92821.1678308006281@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0078296960612599877==" --===============0078296960612599877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 03/08/2023 2:21 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55=E2=80=AFAM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > > > > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > > > > > Regards, > > > Tarek Hoteit > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > > time. > > Will >=20 > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. >=20 > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. >=20 > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? >=20 > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. >=20 > Sellam Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. We = need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be preserved= past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered here show how e= asily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, very few young pe= ople are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I can't think of a = better idea than asking one of the few that IS interested. Can you? Will --===============0078296960612599877==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Mar 8 20:41:19 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:41:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5631093665145453877==" --===============5631093665145453877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since we are never going to completely agree on "First", "computer", "home computer", "home computing", (using a a terminal with a remote computer) might I suggest the works of Edmund Berkeley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniac https://www.instructables.com/GENIAC-Electric-Brain-Replica/ Full text of "Giant Brains, or, Machines That Think" https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.233530 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/68991 OB_tangent: I remember that Jim Warren said "machinew WHO think" On the issue of "first", many authors on the topic have personal "requirements" for it to be considered. (such as storage, video display, keyboard, HDD, etc.) "It wasn't REALLY a computer, unless it had ..." In MOST cases, they will declare the "first" to be one generation before they got one. CP/M users often choose Altair; People who started in PC will often pick CP/M; people who started with Windoze might pick DOS, Mac users declare Apple2, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5631093665145453877==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:43:07 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:42:50 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1529361434.92821.1678308006281@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4015473912023214843==" --===============4015473912023214843== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. > We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be > preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered here > show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, very > few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > interested. Can you? > But ask them what exactly? Sellam --===============4015473912023214843==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Mar 8 20:46:25 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:46:20 -0600 Message-ID: <1950011745.93865.1678308380574@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2194797096605797714==" --===============2194797096605797714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 03/08/2023 2:42 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: So, how do we get them interested? I > > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > > interested. Can you? >=20 > But ask them what exactly? >=20 > Sellam Some variation of "what is it that makes this interesting to you?" --===============2194797096605797714==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:46:28 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 15:46:11 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6140416754677968639==" --===============6140416754677968639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Running museum (kennettclassic.com) I meet with kids daily who are very interested in computing history. They all seem to know the Youtubers who specialize in vintage gaming and computing. These youtube channels are not always historically accurate but it's a start. Most younger people gravitate to systems made after 1990. They're not as interested in things they can't identify with. It's hard to just jump in. Computers are not like cars. Computers from 50 years ago are fundamentally different. Cars that are 50 years old can still drive the highways b On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. > > We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be > > preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered > here > > show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, > very > > few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I > > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > > interested. Can you? > > > > But ask them what exactly? > > Sellam > --===============6140416754677968639==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 8 20:51:17 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:50:58 -0800 Message-ID: <56C8BE91-B48C-4E33-A031-711B5C6B4D59@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1318112421857594439==" --===============1318112421857594439== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That is great news. I think these kids saw the 90s as NES (Mario), Sega (Son= ic), and their dads playing either Leisure Suite Larry and later Doom on the = PC. I think we need to find a way to pull them to this news group, rather tha= n them pulling us to their Discord chats, and then all of us would have to be= have with the kids around. :) Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:46 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFRunning museum (kennettclassic.com) I meet with kids daily who a= re very > interested in computing history. They all seem to know the Youtubers who > specialize in vintage gaming and computing. These youtube channels are not > always historically accurate but it's a start. Most younger people > gravitate to systems made after 1990. They're not as interested in things > they can't identify with. It's hard to just jump in. Computers are not > like cars. Computers from 50 years ago are fundamentally different. Cars > that are 50 years old can still drive the highways > b >=20 >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:43=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >>=20 >>> Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. >>> We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be >>> preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered >> here >>> show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, >> very >>> few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I >>> can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS >>> interested. Can you? >>>=20 >>=20 >> But ask them what exactly? >>=20 >> Sellam >>=20 --===============1318112421857594439==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:51:47 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 15:51:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1950011745.93865.1678308380574@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0900067433258824099==" --===============0900067433258824099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd invite any one here to docent the museum for a day, it will provide a lot of perspective as to the general public view on computer history. I learned quickly you can't fire\hose people, kids in particular with a lot of factoids. Most people just want to walk around and look, they don't need a lesson or want to be told anything. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:46=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 03/08/2023 2:42 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > So, how do we get them interested? I > > > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > > > interested. Can you? > > > > But ask them what exactly? > > > > Sellam > > Some variation of "what is it that makes this interesting to you?" > --===============0900067433258824099==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:56:36 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 15:56:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8A90A5CD-5D9B-41F2-89D4-71549752C530@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4484173403524712780==" --===============4484173403524712780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/2023 2:54 PM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > I don=E2=80=99t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer = is. One can argue Plato is one. There must be a Plato I don't know about.=C2=A0 The one I saw when I was in I= T at West Point was bigger than a desk.=C2=A0 Hardly what would have passed for a = home computer.=C2=A0 (Although it was only a few years later when I had an Apollo = in my home!!=C2=A0 :-)=C2=A0 It was almost as big. bill --===============4484173403524712780==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 8 20:57:06 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:56:47 -0800 Message-ID: <45E5080E-83D7-44FC-A43B-0EFCC836120F@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: <1950011745.93865.1678308380574@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2717378891033544741==" --===============2717378891033544741== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We can get them excited by thinking like them - videos (narrated by their kin= d not us) and we are in the background. We play old school games and make fun= of the 8bit sounds in front of them. Some might get curious and say =E2=80= =9Cwhy does this sound like that?=E2=80=9D Or =E2=80=9Cwhy this graphic looks= so different=E2=80=9D. Then we begin a short story =E2=80=9Conce upon a time= =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D but end it in 10 minute or less. Or, jokes aside, we cons= ult with Steve=E2=80=99s middle schooler cause, honesty, I have not heard of = any other person at that age truly interested.=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:46 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On 03/08/2023 2:42 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk >> wrote: > So, how do we get them interested? I >>> can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS >>> interested. Can you? >>=20 >> But ask them what exactly? >>=20 >> Sellam >=20 > Some variation of "what is it that makes this interesting to you?" --===============2717378891033544741==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 8 20:59:08 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:58:50 -0800 Message-ID: <54FFA975-0518-4569-B6D9-985C80B56370@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55809D1E905E29DA5159282EEDB49=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5818607306393567862==" --===============5818607306393567862== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Technically true. However, if I would reference the book =E2=80=9CThe Friendl= y Orange Glow=E2=80=9D on the history of Plato, there is a chapter I recall i= n which the author mentioned someone taking a terminal to their home=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:56 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On 3/8/2023 2:54 PM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >> I don=E2=80=99t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer= is. One can argue Plato is one. >=20 > There must be a Plato I don't know about. The one I saw when I was in IT at >=20 > West Point was bigger than a desk. Hardly what would have passed for a home >=20 > computer. (Although it was only a few years later when I had an Apollo in = my >=20 > home!! :-) It was almost as big. >=20 >=20 > bill >=20 >=20 --===============5818607306393567862==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Mar 8 20:59:29 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 15:59:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6448249542786811754==" --===============6448249542786811754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/2023 3:18 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54=E2=80=AFAM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I don=E2=80=99t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer= is. One >> can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue >> that the Altair is the first. > > A very good argument could be made that it was the LINC (1962) =3D=3D> > https://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/linc/ieee-article.htm > > At least one of the systems built ended up in the actual home of one of the > engineers: quite possibly the first "home" computer. I think the real argument is:=C2=A0 Does it have to be a computer made for=20 home use or just any computer that found it's way into a home. I had some good sized iron in my home in the early 80's. bill --===============6448249542786811754==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 8 21:01:25 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 13:01:08 -0800 Message-ID: <4B0E19B7-ABB2-47A3-96F8-ABC98E3725B9@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5215580001948554928==" --===============5215580001948554928== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We can ask them by saying =E2=80=9Cwe were at your age and had toys that we l= oved so much that we still talk about them 40 years or so later. If you have = a toy that you want to preserve that for 40 years, what would you do?=E2=80= =9D=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:43 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. >> We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be >> preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered here >> show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, very >> few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I >> can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS >> interested. Can you? >>=20 >=20 > But ask them what exactly? >=20 > Sellam --===============5215580001948554928==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Mar 8 21:04:26 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 16:04:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2558293435139219375==" --===============2558293435139219375== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/8/2023 2:49 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's > and 60's > > I forgot all about mt GE Analog computer from the late 50's. Still have it, it still works even though most of the insulation on the wiring has rotted away.  I keep meaning to rewire it but never seem to get to it. I should, though.  I have already showed my grandson how a slide rule works.  (My collection includes a hanging wall sliderule!!)  It might prove interesting to show him how you can do the same math on the analog computer. bill --===============2558293435139219375==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Mar 8 21:11:11 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 13:10:59 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55809D1E905E29DA5159282EEDB49=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7681141606656008279==" --===============7681141606656008279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got into it from EAM/cards. In 1970, I was working at National Space Sciences Data Center, building 26 at Goddard Space Flight Center. Doing gofer work for a British physicist studying the Van Allen belts, as part of an on-site contract. FORTRAN, APL, Gerber digitizer, and plotters (Calcomp and Stromberg). When I heard about microprocessors, it was obviously inevitable that computers were destined to become small and cheap. I was getting out during a collapse of aerospace, and I opened an auto repair shop for the 1970s. I declared that I would get back into computers when I could afford a table-top computer that could run a high level language, such as FORTRAN. I never said that that would be the first home computer, since I already knew some crazy hobbyists. I merely said that that would be the first one that I would get. About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into a store and buy one without pre-order?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7681141606656008279==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 21:25:16 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 13:24:57 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55803F0A2BCE33F42910BE4AEDB49=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5402277805994121905==" --===============5402277805994121905== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:04 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 3/8/2023 2:49 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's > > and 60's > > > > > > I forgot all about mt GE Analog computer from the late 50's. Still have > > it, it still works even though most of the insulation on the wiring has > > rotted away. I keep meaning to rewire it but never seem to get to it. > > I should, though. I have already showed my grandson how a slide rule > > works. (My collection includes a hanging wall sliderule!!) It might > > prove interesting to show him how you can do the same math on the > > analog computer. > > bill > I was able to score one of those for my collection off eBay not too long ago. They don't come around often (or cheaply, for that matter). Sellam --===============5402277805994121905==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 21:28:12 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 13:27:53 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2255397100889617112==" --===============2255397100889617112== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:11=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy > it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. > If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, > or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. > > Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider > them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you > count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into > a store and buy one without pre-order?) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com I'm sure specific dates are out there, but as far as generally, the Apple ][ and PET were available for actual purchase prior to the TRS-80, and between the Apple ][ and the PET, I believe the former shipped first. Sellam --===============2255397100889617112==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 8 21:39:43 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 13:39:33 -0800 Message-ID: <1be2f8be-8956-6a33-3ed6-a6ca0f3e6554@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <20230308190318.E60D23ACF35@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2997284526834072365==" --===============2997284526834072365== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar syndrome. --Chuck --===============2997284526834072365==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Mar 8 21:42:32 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 13:42:25 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1251552390363338973==" --===============1251552390363338973== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy >> it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. >> If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, >> or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. >> >> Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider >> them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you >> count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into >> a store and buy one without pre-order?) >> About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy >> it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. >> If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, >> or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. >> >> Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider >> them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you >> count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into >> a store and buy one without pre-order?) On Wed, 8 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I'm sure specific dates are out there, but as far as generally, the Apple > ][ and PET were available for actual purchase prior to the TRS-80, and > between the Apple ][ and the PET, I believe the former shipped first. LOCALLY, apparently different in other towns, TRS80 was the first one that I could walk into a store in Berkeley/Albany and walk out with one. Also, by supplying my own monitor and cassette player, $398 was by far the cheapest. (I did not say "best") It was easy to find RAM cheaper than the dealer. And, after I had splurged on the Expansion Interface when it came out (bringing the total price back up), It was easy to find cheap drives. A neighbor and I immediately got into building drive cases and power supplies and peddling those, RAM, and minor other odss and ends. (Such as the Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1251552390363338973==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 8 21:54:06 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 13:53:50 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1be2f8be-8956-6a33-3ed6-a6ca0f3e6554@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6029283320281654521==" --===============6029283320281654521== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:39=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially > used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In > 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early > existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar > syndrome. > I have what appears to be a stainless steel UNIVAC tape. It isn't crumbling away into dust anytime soon. Sellam --===============6029283320281654521==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 8 22:16:22 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:16:13 -0800 Message-ID: <1fec70e4-7aac-5545-0e54-ff838a944302@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3060292077246047313==" --===============3060292077246047313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/23 13:53, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:39=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially >> used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In >> 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early >> existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar >> syndrome. >> >=20 > I have what appears to be a stainless steel UNIVAC tape. It isn't > crumbling away into dust anytime soon. >=20 Heavy bugger,no? Nickel-plated Vicalloy (a type of phosphor-bronze). --Chuck --===============3060292077246047313==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Mar 8 22:27:50 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:27:33 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5762643461142712364==" --===============5762643461142712364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 8:31 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On 3/7/23 22:34, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ll be the first to admit my question is a bit strange. Basicall= y I=E2=80=99m trying to use the date that various media types were first intr= oduced to show the oldest possible date for a bunch of media I=E2=80=99m tryi= ng to date. The 9-Track tapes have been inventoried as =E2=80=9C700 6250 BPI= =E2=80=9D, and I know they=E2=80=99re the smaller reels. Doing some digging,= it looks like 6250BPI tapes date back at least as far as 1971 with the IBM 3= 400 series drives, I=E2=80=99d thought that 6250 came about in the 80=E2=80= =99s. >=20 > Wow! I'd love to see the 1971 vintage GCR tape controller, it must have be= en the size of a 360 CPU! We had a GCR controller from Storage Tech. in 1982= or so that was the same size as a PDP 11/44 large cabinet. CDC Keystone dri= ves (92185) had it integrated into the 680x controller micro, which I thought= was pretty amazing. >=20 > Jon >=20 https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3420.html It turns out that it was the 3420 models 2, 4, and 6 that were announced in M= arch 1973 that supported 6250. Zane --===============5762643461142712364==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Mar 8 22:30:56 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:30:41 -0800 Message-ID: <8232B7B7-BCA0-4C52-BE1F-783EB86628E7@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <87b74b98-932d-f7e0-74ea-067aee9b9397@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7428792575791165939==" --===============7428792575791165939== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca. > 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century. >=20 > A lack of foresight on the part of the script writers? >=20 > What can we predict for the year 2250? >=20 > --Chuck >=20 Tape is dead, Long live tape! Every time someone proclaims that tape is dead, I laugh. How many here reali= ze that there is now Tape-based Object Storage? Zane --===============7428792575791165939==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Mar 8 23:34:24 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 17:34:19 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230308190318.E60D23ACF35@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8602164603990681693==" --===============8602164603990681693== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/8/23 13:03, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > Wow! I'd love to see the 1971 vintage GCR tape controller, it must > > have been the size of a 360 CPU! We had a GCR controller from > > Storage Tech. in 1982 or so that was the same size as a PDP 11/44 > > large cabinet. CDC Keystone drives (92185) had it integrated into > > the 680x controller micro, which I thought was pretty amazing. > > The IBM history pages seem to say that the initial 3420 offerings were > 1600, in 1971, and that later models added GCR in 1973. The control > unit, 3803, was similarly sized to the 3420 drive, iirc a bit shorter, > but very roughly the same occupied square footage. > OK, well, 1973 would have been built from MST instead of SLT, that gives a huge density improvement. Thanks for the update, Jon --===============8602164603990681693==-- From jrr@flippers.com Wed Mar 8 23:40:21 2023 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NOS Tapes 3 X 3M DC 600A 60MB Cartridges (1991)...(speaking of tapes) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 15:33:16 -0800 Message-ID: <2461f4bc-29d2-e8c0-83df-1070a6a63df5@flippers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6084502861896386002==" --===============6084502861896386002== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone interested in 3 tapes - has Olympics logo - still in original wrapping? Ether pick up at my shop or pay for postage and handling... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============6084502861896386002==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Mar 8 23:43:48 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 17:43:44 -0600 Message-ID: <7d5fbc99-4316-0b31-427f-ff2962a00a91@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0292420907831661139==" --===============0292420907831661139== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/23 14:18, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54=E2=80=AFAM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I don=E2=80=99t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer= is. One >> can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue >> that the Altair is the first. > > A very good argument could be made that it was the LINC (1962) =3D=3D> > https://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/linc/ieee-article.htm > > At least one of the systems built ended up in the actual home of one of the > engineers: quite possibly the first "home" computer. > Yes, there is a "famous" picture of a LINC set up at the=20 bottom of the stairs of Mary Allen Wilkes parent's home=20 (Nobody wanted to carry the beast up the stairs...) This was in 1965.=C2=A0 She wrote the definitive OS for that=20 machine (LAP6). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Allen_Wilkes Jon --===============0292420907831661139==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Mar 8 23:46:38 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 17:46:33 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2031146180883545165==" --===============2031146180883545165== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/8/23 14:31, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) > computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A > relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic computer > that one person could operate. The Bendix G-15 also fits that description. Jon --===============2031146180883545165==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 01:41:54 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 17:41:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1fec70e4-7aac-5545-0e54-ff838a944302@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1389002238601017675==" --===============1389002238601017675== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:16=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/8/23 13:53, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:39=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially > >> used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In > >> 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early > >> existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar > >> syndrome. > >> > > > > I have what appears to be a stainless steel UNIVAC tape. It isn't > > crumbling away into dust anytime soon. > > > Heavy bugger,no? > Nickel-plated Vicalloy (a type of phosphor-bronze). > 1.76 pounds on the (aluminum?) reel. That doesn't seem like much, but it's on a 6" reel, and it definitely feels dense when held. Phosphor-bronze makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification. Sellam --===============1389002238601017675==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 02:01:45 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 21:01:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1033487228154386923==" --===============1033487228154386923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 6:46=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 3/8/23 14:31, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) > > computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A > > relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic > computer > > that one person could operate. > > The Bendix G-15 also fits that description. > > Jon > > John, I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that the G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal McBee LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so it's a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of personal computing, but I never read about them that way. Bill --===============1033487228154386923==-- From blstuart@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 9 03:10:09 2023 From: "Brian L. Stuart" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 03:11:21 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7781071086498197865==" --===============7781071086498197865== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 05:24:40AM -0600, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). >=20 > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZ9mgSVJZoFc Steve, I'll start by echoing what others have said in congratulating you and your daughter on an excellent video. =20 If you all are interested a different take on the origins of personal computing, here's a recording I made for use during the pandemic of a talk that I give every year to our freshmen at Drexel University. https://1513041.mediaspace.kaltura.com/media/Whence+Came+the+Personal+Compute= r/1_dq6va75g=20 If you'd like to go back even farther, here's a page I have on the ENIAC. At the bottom are links to a number of talks I've given on the subject: http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/eniac/ Again, good job, and I'm very happy to see that your daughter is interested in the history of computing. BLS --===============7781071086498197865==-- From chrise@pobox.com Thu Mar 9 03:29:46 2023 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 21:23:15 -0600 Message-ID: <4A3A1BE2-DDEE-403F-9F3E-B398B45AC73A@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <1fec70e4-7aac-5545-0e54-ff838a944302@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9204504153028926311==" --===============9204504153028926311== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 3/8/23 13:53, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:39=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially >>> used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In >>> 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early >>> existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar >>> syndrome. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I have what appears to be a stainless steel UNIVAC tape. It isn't >> crumbling away into dust anytime soon. >>=20 > Heavy bugger,no? > Nickel-plated Vicalloy (a type of phosphor-bronze). Yes, heavy. I have one too, from UNIVAC 1 Who can read them now? ;-) cje --===============9204504153028926311==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Mar 9 04:19:00 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 21:18:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3947316a-20dd-ac4e-1ef1-ca813dcc0582@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2087661598607296232==" --===============2087661598607296232== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I acquired an IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) today and am looking for advice on what I should do to check it out before, during, and after applying power for the first time. I'll try to get some pictures if anyone is interested. The label near the power switch says that it's an 8580-071. I have no idea how that compares to the hardware that's in it. There are two full size (5¼) hard drives, the controller card. I don't know what type of drives they are yet, they look to be MFM / RLL like in that they have the common cable and a per drive cable. There is a video card that has a daughter-card in the same slot like a thick sandwich. There is another card that I don't recognize. The card doesn't have any external connectors and it looks like it takes multiple (approximately 4"x4") daughter-cards. I am wondering if this is a memory expansion of some sort. There are two of what I believe are the memory boards between the back hard drive and the power supply. The battery is still in the system, but I didn't see any corrosion and it's away from the motherboard. There is also the degrading black foam used for air ducting. Blech. Q: What things should I do as part of checking out this system. I'd like to eventually power it up and see what is on the drives (if they will spin). I need to physically clean it with a damp rag and get some pictures of the system. Please share any pro-tips / gotchas / etc. that you think I could benefit from knowing. Thank you and have a good day. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============2087661598607296232==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Mar 9 04:30:00 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 20:23:12 -0800 Message-ID: <28be299c-0fa3-d8c6-d917-243ea4496b88@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <4A3A1BE2-DDEE-403F-9F3E-B398B45AC73A@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4025628334443398068==" --===============4025628334443398068== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/8/23 19:23, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Who can read them now? ;-) I suppose that you could rig something up as a streaming rig, but the metal was murder on heads; the Univservo I interposed a thin plastic tape between the metal and the head. Fortunately, the density was pretty low. Not easy--the contents would have to be special. But not gone forever. --Chuck --===============4025628334443398068==-- From bear@typewritten.org Thu Mar 9 07:02:25 2023 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:01:24 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3947316a-20dd-ac4e-1ef1-ca813dcc0582@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0707490243627905330==" --===============0707490243627905330== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 8:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The label near the power switch says that it's an 8580-071. I have no idea= how that compares to the hardware that's in it. That would be 16 MHz, one 70 MB ESDI HDD (IBM 0667). Maximum 2 MB on the plan= ar (2x 1 MB modules). > There is a video card that has a daughter-card in the same slot like a thic= k sandwich. likely 8514/A > There is another card that I don't recognize. The card doesn't have any ex= ternal connectors and it looks like it takes multiple (approximately 4"x4") d= aughter-cards. I am wondering if this is a memory expansion of some sort. Yes. > There are two of what I believe are the memory boards between the back hard= drive and the power supply. Yes. > Blech. Yes. > Please share any pro-tips / gotchas / etc. that you think I could benefit f= rom knowing. You=E2=80=99ll want the reference disk, and the option disks for the various = boards installed. The base reference disk should have the necessary files to = configure the ESDI controller and drives, might also have the necessary files= to configure the memory expansion boards (not sure). Probably won=E2=80=99t = have the 8514/A files so you=E2=80=99ll definitely need that option disk, unl= ess you copy a reference disk already customized with support for those optio= ns. ok bear. --===============0707490243627905330==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Thu Mar 9 07:03:21 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:27:30 -0800 Message-ID: <0D541CA3-1587-408E-94F7-2EF8DD375846@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0410701526674850606==" --===============0410701526674850606== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable :) it makes sense, Sellam, to inform her rather than she telling us, but agai= n she and others her age are the future. She will do it her way just like we,= at her age, did it our way. Funny: i just remembered a quote from Goonies - = =E2=80=9Cthis is our time=E2=80=9D =20 It is their time=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:22 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55=E2=80=AFAM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >>=20 >>> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>=20 >>=20 >>> We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school >> timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Tarek Hoteit >>>=20 >>=20 >> That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long >> time. >>=20 >> Will >>=20 >=20 > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. >=20 > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. >=20 > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? >=20 > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. >=20 > Sellam --===============0410701526674850606==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Thu Mar 9 07:03:24 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 12:28:18 -0800 Message-ID: <02AF896C-CA9B-4C8E-A2B3-727211ACACAC@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4699430478395501880==" --===============4699430478395501880== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF:) it makes sense, Sellam, to inform her rather than she telling us,= but again she and others her age are the future. She will do it her way just= like we, at her age, did it our way. Funny: i just remembered a quote from G= oonies - =E2=80=9Cthis is our time=E2=80=9D =20 It is their time=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:22 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55=E2=80=AFAM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >>> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school >> timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! >>> Regards, >>> Tarek Hoteit >> That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long >> time. >> Will >=20 > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. >=20 > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. >=20 > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? >=20 > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. >=20 > Sellam --===============4699430478395501880==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Thu Mar 9 07:03:27 2023 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 16:26:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3712130f-baf8-c7b9-4cc9-80cedb6db219@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4015637221689692068==" --===============4015637221689692068== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure yet. Will see in a week or so On March 8, 2023 1:42:58 PM EST, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: >"Holy smokes. Poking around on these disk images it looks like these system = have a FULL DECNET FILE SERVER as well." Are you referring to DECnet FAL on t= he PRO, or the little known PRO Cluster software? -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Con= trol-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============4015637221689692068==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 07:25:05 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 01:24:49 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <888016134.84605.1678305330041@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3602017912220958337==" --===============3602017912220958337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you all for the notes (and feedback). The 1964 skit of Patty Duke using that Univac-422 - all the markings of a personal computer right there, no doubt. But dragging that into a home doesn't make it a home computer. As engineers, sure, we're good with that - I don't even put cases on my computers. Air flow, pffff, overrated. Unless the AC cuts out in the summer. The original video title I had was "domesticating the computer." Like taming wild cats and wolves, and finally bringing them into our homes as tamed beasts that become our companions. Maybe I should go back to that title? Some thoughts: You can drag something like a LINC or Univac home, but it's still quite a beast - and you'll be on your own with what is essentially a one-off system (i.e. for finding parts and tech manuals). Even if they made 1000 of them at best, that's still rare to find an expert to help with those systems. A few technical folks could handle that - spending all evening loading some kind of software, and all weekend replacing tubes. But the typical consumer won't bother. One of my favorite references: https://www.tech-insider.org/personal-computers/research/acrobat/7807.pdf And here is my summary of that article: May 5 1966: (Steven B Gray founded Amateur Computer Society) 1966: book "We Built Our Own Computer" by A B Bolt (not much for 1967 - some CQ magazine kits that were never built) April 1968: ECHO IV (Jim Sutherland; 8K, 18 instructions, 160 kHz) (no highlights for 1969/1970 - but CTC/Datapoint was active around this time on their 3300) 1971: 1000 Minutemen I missile guidance processors became available in surplus 1971: first "computer kit" (Louis E Frenzel, 15 instructions) 1971: Kenbak-1 (65 instructions, audio cassette storage) 1972: Don Tarbell - editor program and assembler program early 1972: opening of "several used computer equipment stores" (used as in surplus) 1972: 8008, TTL price drops, 1101 programmable memory (and the 1702) 1972: Roger Amidon's 4-bit "Spider" (TTL, RTTY, featured in BYTE April 1977) Sept. 1972: Hal Chamberline, HAL-4096 (surplus IBM 1620 core, 16-bit system) Sept. 1972: Electronic Design article, 1024 ASCII chars on a TV set May 1973: EPD System One kit Sept. 1973: Don Lancaster TVT-1 Late 1973: Scelbi-8H ($2760 for 16KB, cassette IO, ASCII keyboard, o-scope output), defunct Dec. 1974 1973: PDP-8A under $900 July 1974: Radio Electronics Jonathan Titus, Mark-8 (est. 500 units built) Oct. 1974: SwTPC TVT-II kit and ASCII keyboard ($220 total) April 1975: *first deliveries *of Altair 8800 (kit had no IO, 10k sold by end of year per MITS) April 1975: first computer-club meeting (Bob Reiling, Gordon French) Fall 1975: MITS 4K/8K BASIC interpreters Fall 1975: SwTPC 6800-based microcomputer (end of first decade of "amateur computing") Other notes: 1969: Busicom/Intel contract for printer-calculator ($200 4004) 1971: Datapoint/Intel relationship ($200 8008, interrupt capability), Intel introduces 1101 and 1702 1972: National Semiconductor introduces IMP-16 ("user definable instruction set") 1973: Intel 8080 ("still required an external clock and multiple power supplies", vs 6800 required one TTL power supply) 1975-1976: "3rd gen microprocessors" Z-80, enhanced 8080 (on chip clock), 6502, TMS9900/TMS9980 (16-bit) 1977: "4th gen microprocessors" (actual "microcomputers in a single IC" -- microprocessor, ROM, programmable memory, IO on one chip) As to opinions from younger folks: one thing I'd like to say is "don't give up on them." Teenagers may be aloof and not seem interested now - but don't be overly discouraged. Years later, perhaps even decades, they may remember something about the experience and come back to it. I think my Ice Breaker with my daughter was playing 1987 Wheel of Fortune (or maybe 1988) on the IBM PC a couple years ago -- it's "fugly" in CGA but yet charming in its way. But the real kicker is, my daughter won (virtually) "5000 lbs of pot" when she won one of the rounds in that version, and we still laugh about that since it was so unexpected from a "family game from the 1980s". -Steve On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:55=E2=80=AFPM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > > > Regards, > > Tarek Hoteit > > > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > time. > > Will > --===============3602017912220958337==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 07:35:50 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 02:35:33 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580D341514AD22F992FB4D5EDB49=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5861173403353100618==" --===============5861173403353100618== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I had some good sized iron in my home in the early 80's. We (my family - I put up 1/3, my mother covered the other 2/3) got a PET in 1979. I came home from my first Dayton Hamvention in 1982 with a PDP-8. If a high school kid can scrounge a PDP-8 by the early 80s, I'm sure an adult with a real job could have done it a lot earlier. -ethan P.S. - 90% of what ran on that PET was games - commercial ones bought from Creative Computing and Instant Software and others, as well as lots of games typed in from books and magazines (Creative Computing, BYTE, Micro, etc). We didn't have a printer and the only storage was cassette tape, so word processing and other "serious" applications were off the table. I did have some utility firmware - an improved machine language monitor (NMON), which I used to write better games (hand port of Scott Adams' engine from BASIC to 6502 machine code), BASIC Toolkit, and BASIC Aid, used for writing better programs in BASIC. Yes, Bill, arcade games were better, but they cost $0.25 a play and I could play what games we had for hours on the PET. We didn't have an Atari or other home video game console. I also typed in and played several text adventures, something that was not available on a console or in an arcade. I'm not saying that nobody did "engineering work" on a home computer, but by 1980, we sure were playing a lot of games on home computers. --===============5861173403353100618==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Thu Mar 9 08:21:08 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 02:11:33 -0600 Message-ID: <6bcf26ed-5fbf-b3ca-43cf-6c2d11e01aff@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <28be299c-0fa3-d8c6-d917-243ea4496b88@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8936271660971789393==" --===============8936271660971789393== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/23 22:23, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/8/23 19:23, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> Who can read them now? ;-) > I suppose that you could rig something up as a streaming rig, but the > metal was murder on heads; the Univservo I interposed a thin plastic > tape between the metal and the head. Fortunately, the density was > pretty low. > > Not easy--the contents would have to be special. But not gone forever. > > --Chuck > > The Univac 3 had nothing but Uniservo 3 tape drives, and continually did=20 things between drives in most installations.=C2=A0 I read that most job steps= =20 consisted of putting the OS and other stuff on a tape prior to doing=20 something, then preparing another drive with the next step and a copy of=20 the OS. So any Uniservo U3 tape could have the OS and the job data on it. None=20 should be taken to have only data. And most operations programmed variants, so different installations=20 tapes would have differ flavors of the OS to suit their styles and needs. Not many had disk drives from what I saw, certainly none had Disk OS.=C2=A0=20 Some probably didn't run the software from the tape drives, but the tape=20 was the reason for the movies both fiction, bad TV and real machine=20 rooms in that era having so many drives. I don't think the U3 had metalic tape, but won't swear.=C2=A0 Didn't really=20 get a chance to look at the tape=C2=A0 when i had access to the Univac 3. My web page archived, and referenced by Wikipedia.=C2=A0 Photos taken when we= =20 had a Univac 3. Bill Donzelli may have tapes and residue from the system. Thanks Jim https://web.archive.org/web/20050901062918/http://jwstephens.com/univac3/page= _01.htm --===============8936271660971789393==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 10:15:54 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 04:15:38 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0840745746716284099==" --===============0840745746716284099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Grumpy Ol' Fred , On the GENIAC -- thanks for sharing that! It has this "killer app" called "Masculine=E2=80=93Feminine Testing Machine" Brilliant! On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:41=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Since we are never going to completely agree on > "First", > "computer", > "home computer", > "home computing", (using a a terminal with a remote computer) > > might I suggest the works of Edmund Berkeley. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniac > https://www.instructables.com/GENIAC-Electric-Brain-Replica/ > > Full text of "Giant Brains, or, Machines That Think" > https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.233530 > https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/68991 > > > OB_tangent: I remember that Jim Warren said "machinew WHO think" > > > On the issue of "first", many authors on the topic have personal > "requirements" for it to be considered. (such as storage, video display, > keyboard, HDD, etc.) "It wasn't REALLY a computer, unless it had ..." In > MOST cases, they will declare the "first" to be one generation before they > got one. CP/M users often choose Altair; People who started in PC will > often pick CP/M; people who started with Windoze might pick DOS, Mac > users declare Apple2, etc. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============0840745746716284099==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Mar 9 11:08:40 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 05:08:36 -0600 Message-ID: <1564935444.128815.1678360116362@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5472452331854570796==" --===============5472452331854570796== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 03/09/2023 1:24 AM CST Steve Lewis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Thank you all for the notes (and feedback). >=20 > The 1964 skit of Patty Duke using that Univac-422 - all the markings of a > personal computer right there, no doubt. But dragging that into a home > doesn't make it a home computer. As engineers, sure, we're good with that > - I don't even put cases on my computers. Air flow, pffff, overrated. > Unless the AC cuts out in the summer. >=20 > Steve, I think the video is very good and much needed. You and your daughter deserv= e kudos for it. =20 When I was watching it I had the urge to do what others have done -- sharpsho= ot it from my perspective. Then I remembered who the intended audience was an= d changed my perspective. With that change I realized it was spot on. Would= I have done it different? Sure. But that doesn't make mine "right" and you= rs "wrong." If your video gets ten young(er) people interested they can join= some mailing list like this in the future and argue endlessly about which on= e was "first." =20 So, congratulations to you and your daughter. It's a very nice video. =20 Will --===============5472452331854570796==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Mar 9 12:47:40 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 07:47:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0dc001d951ea$80403930$80c0ab90$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4311902858193673645==" --===============4311902858193673645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/8/2023 1:19 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk >> Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 6:08 PM >> To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >> Cc: Chuck Guzis >> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? >> >> I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca. >> 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century. > > Yes, but Space 1999 still had slide rules.. > It's 2023 and so do I.  Have started teaching my grandson what it is and how it works. bill --===============4311902858193673645==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 13:18:51 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 08:18:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0D541CA3-1587-408E-94F7-2EF8DD375846@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8836898423747447012==" --===============8836898423747447012== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:03 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > :) it makes sense, Sellam, to inform her rather than she telling us, but > again she and others her age are the future. She will do it her way just > like we, at her age, did it our way. Funny: i just remembered a quote from > Goonies - “this is our time” > > > > It is their time > > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > Sounds good until you think about it. b --===============8836898423747447012==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 13:20:41 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 08:20:24 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7208775458165229415==" --===============7208775458165229415== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First and foremost, try to boot the computer to make note of the configuration, if there is one still stored in the system. I don't expect the battery to have held the config but there is always hope. Make detailed notes if you're lucky enough to have the configs saved. Otherwise get a new battery before you do anything or you'll be spinning your wheels. Bill On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:02=E2=80=AFAM r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 8:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > The label near the power switch says that it's an 8580-071. I have no > idea how that compares to the hardware that's in it. > > That would be 16 MHz, one 70 MB ESDI HDD (IBM 0667). Maximum 2 MB on the > planar (2x 1 MB modules). > > > There is a video card that has a daughter-card in the same slot like a > thick sandwich. > > likely 8514/A > > > There is another card that I don't recognize. The card doesn't have any > external connectors and it looks like it takes multiple (approximately > 4"x4") daughter-cards. I am wondering if this is a memory expansion of > some sort. > > Yes. > > > There are two of what I believe are the memory boards between the back > hard drive and the power supply. > > Yes. > > > Blech. > > Yes. > > > Please share any pro-tips / gotchas / etc. that you think I could > benefit from knowing. > > You=E2=80=99ll want the reference disk, and the option disks for the various > boards installed. The base reference disk should have the necessary files > to configure the ESDI controller and drives, might also have the necessary > files to configure the memory expansion boards (not sure). Probably won=E2= =80=99t > have the 8514/A files so you=E2=80=99ll definitely need that option disk, u= nless > you copy a reference disk already customized with support for those options. > > > ok > bear. --===============7208775458165229415==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Mar 9 14:07:05 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:06:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4A3A1BE2-DDEE-403F-9F3E-B398B45AC73A@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5345277873253943295==" --===============5345277873253943295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:23 PM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFOn 3/8/23 13:53, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>>> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:39=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially >>>> used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In >>>> 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early >>>> existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar >>>> syndrome. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I have what appears to be a stainless steel UNIVAC tape. It isn't >>> crumbling away into dust anytime soon. >>>=20 >> Heavy bugger,no? >> Nickel-plated Vicalloy (a type of phosphor-bronze). >=20 > Yes, heavy. I have one too, from UNIVAC 1 >=20 > Who can read them now? ;-) >=20 > cje I saw an article reporting on that recently. An effort of the CHM, I think, = and yes, it definitely worked. Al, can you tell us more? paull --===============5345277873253943295==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Mar 9 14:17:10 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:16:35 -0500 Message-ID: <758A9A68-D66C-4642-ACA4-D178121F6008@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2513384267023443976==" --===============2513384267023443976== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:11 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > If you all are interested a different take on the origins of > personal computing, here's a recording I made for use during > the pandemic of a talk that I give every year to our freshmen > at Drexel University. >=20 > https://1513041.mediaspace.kaltura.com/media/Whence+Came+the+Personal+Compu= ter/1_dq6va75g=20 >=20 > If you'd like to go back even farther, here's a page I have > on the ENIAC. At the bottom are links to a number of talks > I've given on the subject: >=20 > http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/eniac/ On that sort of history: there's a neat document in the online archives of CW= I in Amsterdam, a course syllabus for a course on computer construction given= by prof. van Wijngaarden in February of 1948. I just completed an English t= ranslation of it, and I'm wondering if there might be a good home for that so= mewhere (once I proofread it). From the introduction: "The field is new. The Eniac is at the moment the only= working machine, while one of these days the Selective Sequence Electronic C= alculator from the I.B.M. will be demonstrated." paul --===============2513384267023443976==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Mar 9 15:36:05 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 08:35:49 -0700 Message-ID: <1f0a0a53-d982-8008-d32d-3f30eeded091@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1193142261368309911==" --===============1193142261368309911== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/9/23 6:20 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > First and foremost, try to boot the computer to make note of the > configuration, if there is one still stored in the system. Hum. That sort of surprises me. I naively assumed that there would be some work that I should do before powering the system on to make sure that there weren't any spicy components that would make me regret my choices. Did IBM not use Rifas? Is there any other hardware concerns? I am somewhat worried about stiction on the old hard drives. But I tend to not work on systems this old that have been sitting for a long time often enough to know what I should check. I'm guessing this system is from about a decade (or more) before failing capacitors were common place on ... economy systems. > I don't expect the battery to have held the config but there is > always hope. Agreed. This is far from my first time working with IBM PS/2s, so the lack of a configuration isn't a big concern to me. I'm well aware of reference disks / option disks / convenience partitions on models that support them. > Make detailed notes if you're lucky enough to have the configs saved. > Otherwise get a new battery before you do anything or you'll be > spinning your wheels. It's been just long enough since the last time I worked on a PS/2 that I can't remember if the battery was required at any power off or just power removed from the PSU. I've had different systems behavie differently in this regard with a dead BIOS battery. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1193142261368309911==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Mar 9 17:16:36 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 11:16:29 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7719005137435233404==" --===============7719005137435233404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/8/23 20:01, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 6:46=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 3/8/23 14:31, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) >>> computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A >>> relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic >> computer >>> that one person could operate. >> The Bendix G-15 also fits that description. >> >> Jon >> >> > John, > I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that the > G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal McBee > LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so it's > a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of personal > computing, but I never read about them that way There was an add-on analog element, (I've never seen one),=20 but the G-15 was definitely a digital machine with drum=20 memory and serial arithmetic.=C2=A0 It was used a LOT by highway=20 departments to plan "cut and fill" highway building=20 projects.=C2=A0 The difference may have been due to marketing=20 people, but my understanding was that the G-15 was often=20 used by one operator, and not shared like a corporate mainframe. Jon --===============7719005137435233404==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 17:31:51 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 12:31:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6508823029647600293==" --===============6508823029647600293== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > John, > > I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that the > > G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal McBee > > LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so > it's > > a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of > personal > > computing, but I never read about them that way > > There was an add-on analog element, (I've never seen one), > but the G-15 was definitely a digital machine with drum > memory and serial arithmetic. It was used a LOT by highway > departments to plan "cut and fill" highway building > projects. The difference may have been due to marketing > people, but my understanding was that the G-15 was often > used by one operator, and not shared like a corporate mainframe. > > Jon > > No doubt it was capable of being operated by a single user, but that to me does not make it a personal computer. The LGP-30 was used in schools and offices not targeted for industrial use. There is really no reason why any computer could not be a personal computer, if you know everything about it and use independently and operate for personal use. It's really impossible to claim any computer was the "first personal computer", but I like the LGP-30 as one of the first. I bet someone used the BENDIX for fun once in a while, too. BIll --===============6508823029647600293==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 18:01:19 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 10:01:03 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3902959431125833499==" --===============3902959431125833499== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of "personal computer". Somehow I feel like this debate has been had before. Probably here. Probably several times. Sellam On Thu, Mar 9, 2023, 9:31 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > John, > > > I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that > the > > > G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal > McBee > > > LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so > > it's > > > a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of > > personal > > > computing, but I never read about them that way > > > > There was an add-on analog element, (I've never seen one), > > but the G-15 was definitely a digital machine with drum > > memory and serial arithmetic. It was used a LOT by highway > > departments to plan "cut and fill" highway building > > projects. The difference may have been due to marketing > > people, but my understanding was that the G-15 was often > > used by one operator, and not shared like a corporate mainframe. > > > > Jon > > > > > No doubt it was capable of being operated by a single user, but that to me > does not make it a personal computer. The LGP-30 was used in schools and > offices not targeted for industrial use. There is really no reason why any > computer could not be a personal computer, if you know everything about it > and use independently and operate for personal use. It's really impossible > to claim any computer was the "first personal computer", but I like the > LGP-30 as one of the first. I bet someone used the BENDIX for fun once in > a while, too. > BIll > --===============3902959431125833499==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 9 18:08:56 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 11:08:49 -0700 Message-ID: <8e907ef4-557d-74d3-5f18-523e8e59938d@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7026787356699702650==" --===============7026787356699702650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-03-09 10:31 a.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> > No doubt it was capable of being operated by a single user, but that to me > does not make it a personal computer. The LGP-30 was used in schools and > offices not targeted for industrial use. There is really no reason why any > computer could not be a personal computer, if you know everything about it > and use independently and operate for personal use. It's really impossible > to claim any computer was the "first personal computer", but I like the > LGP-30 as one of the first. I bet someone used the BENDIX for fun once in > a while, too. > BIll Quit changing the rules, BIG COMPUTERS make a great home computer. The cpu has been repainted and makes a lovely walk in kitchen. The power supplies make both a up stairs and down stairs bathroom. Three 4K single core bed rooms and master 8K bed room with extra big Cache. ... and FREE air conditioning, Coming soon to a DUMPSTER near you. I think the IBM-1130 would be the only vintage computer that be a the first personal computer, as It came with BASIC,FORTRAN IV and APL. Ben. --===============7026787356699702650==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 18:50:16 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 12:50:00 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1427404540242870847==" --===============1427404540242870847== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sellam, > It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of > "personal computer". One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on how it is originally financed. If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush." Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to decide what to do with it and who is authorized to use it. Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original context on how the system came to exist stands. Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small furniture or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right. A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it repeatable, if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") but (to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer product). -Steve > --===============1427404540242870847==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Mar 9 19:17:12 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 11:17:06 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7496438894954034851==" --===============7496438894954034851== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of > "personal computer". > Somehow I feel like this debate has been had before. Probably here. > Probably several times. > Sellam It is a permanent topic. Along with "First". ("proposed"/"designed"/"prototyped"/"announced"/"demonstrated"/"offered for sale"/"sold"/"delivered"/"retail availability without pre-order/waitlist") IBM PC/5150 was announced/released August 11, 1981. But, it was many months before I could take one home. I was able to take home a TRS80 first, but some other people were able to take home Apple first. (I insist that TRS80/PET/Apple2 was a TIE) It would help to clarify a bit of basic elements. ANY computer can be considered to be a personal computer. A pile of stones to use as an abacus is a personal computer. Marked sticks to use as a slide rule are a personal computer. When I first took the SATs, we were told "NO sliderules", but to bring our own scratch paper, including graph paper! What do you get when you slide two pieces of log graph paper past each other? The next time, they changed the rules, and they supplied the scratch paper, but still required the test takers to bring multiple #2 pencils, and didn't rule out pencils with a log scale down the side. Operated by single person is kinda arbitrary. Lots of people have "Geek Squad" set up their "personal computer", or have company IT people maintain it, and untangle user induced problems. I had a blind student, who sometimes got other people to help read the portions of the screen that the Votrax choked on. Some personal computers have more than one screen (great for progtramming). I've seen some with more than one keyboard. If two, or more people play a game on one, does that make it no longer a "personal" computer? In Fabrice Florin's Nova documentary, "Hackers : Wizards Of The Electronic Age", there is a scene of consensus joysticks. Size? Price? Weight? arbitrary. A Cray is a personal computer. If you were a billionaire, might you have one as a personal computer? The probability of my having serious money has kept me from fantasizing what I would have. Some people try to insert the word "reasonable". "The reasonable man adapts to the world; the unreasonable man tries to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw Would it work to limit it to machines that were designed, manufactured, and marketed for the purpose of being one? That invokes "intent". Therefore, ALL computers are personal computers. Whether a computer is a "HOME computer" involves where and how would you want to live? Do we count the one that the Vogons destroyed, that the mice had commissioned Magrathea to build? We did eventually come up with definitions of microcomputer/minicomputer/mainframe. "Can you pick it up"/"handtruck"/"union moving crew" "lose a screw in it"/"lose a screwdriver in it"/"lose a scope or a technician" (size/price/weight/architecture all have exceptions) So, maybe there is still hope for a definition. "Would you refuse others access to it?"/"only those you want to impress"/"Only family members"/"Only close friends, or those you want to have sex with" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7496438894954034851==-- From maxwell@buffalo.edu Thu Mar 9 19:22:09 2023 From: John Maxwell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:16:40 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f0a0a53-d982-8008-d32d-3f30eeded091@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0182637876349247504==" --===============0182637876349247504== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9-Mar-23 10h36. Grant Taylor wrote:=20 >On 3/9/23 6:20 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: >> First and foremost, try to boot the computer to make note of the=20 >> configuration, if there is one still stored in the system. Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you don't have = one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. I _should_ have = a copy of one lying around (or already imaged/archived) - the main problem is= finding the ADF (Adaptor Description Files) for the added features/cards. My= copy of the Reference Disk would not likely have any ADFs from obscure cards= , but should have the common files. Let me know if you need a copy. I recall = that I had a 'master diskette' with many collected ADFs which came through th= e lab. Would have to look for that one, if interested. ADFs were text files w= ith descriptions of hardware addresses and the like. >Hum. That sort of surprises me. I naively assumed that there would be some= work that I should do before powering the system on to make sure that there = >weren't any spicy components that would make me regret my choices. Did IBM = not use Rifas? Is there any other hardware concerns? Not sure of what you mean by 'Rifas' in the last question. Probably an acrony= m or other abbreviation of something I may know about, but nothing comes to m= y foggy brain presently. >I am somewhat worried about stiction on the old hard drives. "Stiction" is probably not your biggest concern regarding the hard drives. Th= e real problem could be stuck bearings - depending upon HDD model installed. = "Stiction" is the condition where the spindle motor did not have enough torqu= e to free the head from the platter surfaces - the drives used in all of the = PS/2 Model 80 machines that we saw were beefy enough to overcome any "stictio= n" condition. We, in the repair lab (years ago, of course), used to see this = on the original Apple Mac SE and SE/30 machines where a Sony 20Mb drive was u= sed (the model number has long since been forgotten and is irrelevant to our = discussion, of course) but we used to give them assistance to last a couple o= f startups (or at least one!) for backing up data by using our "inertial rota= tion" technique to physically spin the drive using hand motion. We would (wri= st-strap grounded, of course) grab with our free arm the drive in axial align= ment over the spindle and rotate the drive a few times around back and forth = in a snapping action. 95% of the time it would work to retrieve the data befo= re we would RMA the drive back to Apple. =20 >But I tend to not work on systems this old that have been sitting for a long= time often enough to know what I should check. >I'm guessing this system is from about a decade (or more) before failing cap= acitors were common place on ... economy systems. >> I don't expect the battery to have held the config but there is always=20 >> hope. >Agreed. >This is far from my first time working with IBM PS/2s, so the lack of a conf= iguration isn't a big concern to me. I'm well aware of reference disks / opt= ion disks / >convenience partitions on models that support them. >> Make detailed notes if you're lucky enough to have the configs saved.=20 >> Otherwise get a new battery before you do anything or you'll be=20 >> spinning your wheels. >It's been just long enough since the last time I worked on a PS/2 that I can= 't remember if the battery was required at any power off or just power remove= d from >the PSU. I've had different systems behavie differently in this rega= rd with a dead BIOS battery. The battery used is one of the old 6V photoflash types (cannot recall the mod= el, unfortunately). I have a few of them left in my collection - just ran int= o them in a box (with 2 or 3 left) a few months ago. Each still had over 6v (= no load) at the terminals. No idea how long they would last in application un= der load, though, even though the Model 80 didn't use too much current to hol= d things in config memory. Just my $0.02 (not even sure it was worth that much). Good luck with your 80. --===============0182637876349247504==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Mar 9 19:34:43 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 11:34:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2787789189294026429==" --===============2787789189294026429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not > just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable > product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or > obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it repeatable, > if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom > builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") but > (to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but > the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer > product). Tony Cole had a hobby/business of parting out decommissioned Crays. He also had a business ("VIPC"), assembling generic 5160 clones. At one time, he decided to build "the ultimate personal computer". He used a tower server case, which he had gold plated ("for RF shielding" :-) Top of the line AT motherboard, drives, video, etc. He and his "ultimate personal computer" made it onto the cover of many of the computer magazines. Which was incredibly great advertising for his generic clone business, and his Cray spare parts and souvenir business. Price and size of a personal computer depend on what you can afford, and how much room you have. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2787789189294026429==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Mar 9 19:39:52 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 11:39:47 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8629802173860436150==" --===============8629802173860436150== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Most important of all, for the video, your daughter should decide what parameters matter to her! On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Sellam, > >> It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of >> "personal computer". > > One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on > how it is originally financed. > > If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then > it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush." > Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and > whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to decide > what to do with it and who is authorized to use it. > > Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd > hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could > coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original context > on how the system came to exist stands. > > Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it > is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage > putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily > mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small furniture > or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right. > > > A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not > just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable > product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or > obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it repeatable, > if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom > builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") but > (to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but > the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer > product). > > > -Steve --===============8629802173860436150==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Mar 9 19:56:15 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 12:56:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3b63f8a5-228c-aed7-3276-beeee2bd83e0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR15MB48280B7FBC4B23D36C707638B3B59=40CO1PR15MB?= =?utf-8?q?4828=2Enamprd15=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1235935419006252782==" --===============1235935419006252782== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/9/23 10:16 AM, John Maxwell wrote: > Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you don't > have one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. Yep. I'm well aware. This is not my 1st PS/2 rodeo. I actually cut my teeth on used PS/2s in the mid-90s. > I _should_ have a copy of one lying around (or already imaged/archived) > - the main problem is finding the ADF (Adaptor Description Files) > for the added features/cards. The usual suspects in the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware newsgroup have already provided links to some ADF files for what they assume the boards likely are based on my descriptions. Aside: I thought that ADF was short for Auto Definition File. But I can see how Adapter works too. > My copy of the Reference Disk would not likely have any ADFs from > obscure cards, but should have the common files. Based on my descriptions, the presumption is that I've got a standard (for the model 80) ESDI controller, an 8514/A video card, and an IBM 386 Memory Expansion Adapter. I don't consider those to be too exotic. > Let me know if you need a copy. I recall that I had a 'master diskette' > with many collected ADFs which came through the lab. Would have to look > for that one, if interested. I'm always interested in growing my ADF collection. :-) > ADFs were text files with descriptions of hardware addresses and > the like. That sounds like what I remember. > Not sure of what you mean by 'Rifas' in the last question. Probably > an acronym or other abbreviation of something I may know about, > but nothing comes to my foggy brain presently. My understanding is that RIFA is a brand of capacitor which had a model like which is notorious for failing after time and they seemed to be common in the '90s. > "Stiction" is probably not your biggest concern regarding the hard > drives. The real problem could be stuck bearings - depending upon HDD > model installed. "Stiction" is the condition where the spindle motor > did not have enough torque to free the head from the platter surfaces > - the drives used in all of the PS/2 Model 80 machines that we saw > were beefy enough to overcome any "stiction" condition. We, in the > repair lab (years ago, of course), used to see this on the original > Apple Mac SE and SE/30 machines where a Sony 20Mb drive was used > (the model number has long since been forgotten and is irrelevant > to our discussion, of course) but we used to give them assistance > to last a couple of startups (or at least one!) for backing up data > by using our "inertial rotation" technique to physically spin the > drive using hand motion. We would (wrist-strap grounded, of course) > grab with our free arm the drive in axial alignment over the spindle > and rotate the drive a few times around back and forth in a snapping > action. 95% of the time it would work to retrieve the data before we > would RMA the drive back to Apple. *nod* That's what I was referring to as sticktion. I don't know the state of the bearings. Is there anything that I can or should do for them? > The battery used is one of the old 6V photoflash types (cannot recall > the model, unfortunately). I have a few of them left in my collection - > just ran into them in a box (with 2 or 3 left) a few months ago. Each > still had over 6v (no load) at the terminals. No idea how long they > would last in application under load, though, even though the Model > 80 didn't use too much current to hold things in config memory. ACK My assumption is that the Model 80 has been powered off for years, if not a decade or more. It's on the older end of a five computers I picked up from someone who wanted them hauled away. I'm not holding my breath that they powered the PS/2 on anytime in the last decade. ;-) > Just my $0.02 (not even sure it was worth that much). Good luck with > your 80. Thank you. You're sharing things that seem familiar. Which is appreciated because it means that my memory isn't that far out of calibration or bit rot. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1235935419006252782==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 20:04:05 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:03:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR15MB48280B7FBC4B23D36C707638B3B59=40CO1PR15MB?= =?utf-8?q?4828=2Enamprd15=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7221160274812925404==" --===============7221160274812925404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:22 PM John Maxwell via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 9-Mar-23 10h36. Grant Taylor wrote: > > >On 3/9/23 6:20 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > >> First and foremost, try to boot the computer to make note of the > >> configuration, if there is one still stored in the system. > > Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you don't > have one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. I > _should_ have a copy of one lying around (or already imaged/archived) - the > main problem is finding the ADF (Adaptor Description Files) for the added > features/cards. My copy of the Reference Disk would not likely have any > ADFs from obscure cards, but should have the common files. Let me know if > you need a copy. I recall that I had a 'master diskette' with many > collected ADFs which came through the lab. Would have to look for that one, > if interested. ADFs were text files with descriptions of hardware addresses > and the like. > That's my point, at least try the system see if it works as is, but assume the battery is just about dead if not completely. May have enough juice for one or two more boots. so get the info out of it you can. The chances a model 80 will smoke out or catch fire is less enough to make that a secondary concern. > > >Hum. That sort of surprises me. I naively assumed that there would be > some work that I should do before powering the system on to make sure that > there >weren't any spicy components that would make me regret my choices. > Did IBM not use Rifas? Is there any other hardware concerns? > > Not sure of what you mean by 'Rifas' in the last question. Probably an > acronym or other abbreviation of something I may know about, but nothing > comes to my foggy brain presently. no caps like that, this is an IBM. > >I am somewhat worried about stiction on the old hard drives. > Even if there is stiction you should still try to boot and capture as much info as you can first before you replace the battery. > > "Stiction" is probably not your biggest concern regarding the hard drives. > The real problem could be stuck bearings - depending upon HDD model > installed. "Stiction" is the condition where the spindle motor did not have > enough torque to free the head from the platter surfaces - the drives used > in all of the PS/2 Model 80 machines that we saw were beefy enough to > overcome any "stiction" condition. We, in the repair lab (years ago, of > course), used to see this on the original Apple Mac SE and SE/30 machines > where a Sony 20Mb drive was used (the model number has long since been > forgotten and is irrelevant to our discussion, of course) but we used to > give them assistance to last a couple of startups (or at least one!) for > backing up data by using our "inertial rotation" technique to physically > spin the drive using hand motion. We would (wrist-strap grounded, of > course) grab with our free arm the drive in axial alignment over the > spindle and rotate the drive a few times around back and forth in a > snapping action. 95% of the time it would work to retrieve the data before > we would RMA the drive back to Apple. > > >But I tend to not work on systems this old that have been sitting for a > long time often enough to know what I should check. > > > > I used to work at IBM when they sold these. Bill --===============7221160274812925404==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Mar 9 20:40:50 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 13:40:35 -0700 Message-ID: <42c32a29-356c-ef69-5e56-05b0d6df72a9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1869522644359873277==" --===============1869522644359873277== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/9/23 1:03 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > That's my point, at least try the system see if it works as is, but > assume the battery is just about dead if not completely. May have > enough juice for one or two more boots. so get the info out of it > you can. I'm curious, what do you think /might/ be about to be lost that's of value. Based on my understanding, the system seems fairly stock, an IBM ESDI controller, an IBM graphics controller, and what appears to be an IBM memory expansion. I naively assume that re-configuring those from the ground up would not be a problem. Of course that's predicated on a reference disk with the proper ADF files. I'm assuming that said reference disk, ADF files, and possibly option disk can be acquired. > The chances a model 80 will smoke out or catch fire is less enough > to make that a secondary concern. Thank you for that. > no caps like that, this is an IBM. Cool. I didn't think so. But it's been a long time since I've worked on a computer 25+ years old. I'm more cautious now than I was the last time I did so. > Even if there is stiction you should still try to boot and capture > as much info as you can first before you replace the battery. Based on previous experience with PS/2s, and re-configuring from the ground up, I'm not too worried. I'd be likely to acquire a new battery and another power source to connect to the battery terminals while I replace the battery. That being said, I should take my volt meter and see if there's anything at all. If it's dead, then there's not any point in hurrying. > I used to work at IBM when they sold these. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1869522644359873277==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 20:49:35 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:49:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42c32a29-356c-ef69-5e56-05b0d6df72a9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4350303682651112343==" --===============4350303682651112343== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:40 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/9/23 1:03 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > That's my point, at least try the system see if it works as is, but > > assume the battery is just about dead if not completely. May have > > enough juice for one or two more boots. so get the info out of it > > you can. > > I'm curious, what do you think /might/ be about to be lost that's of value. > > Based on my understanding, the system seems fairly stock, an IBM ESDI > controller, an IBM graphics controller, and what appears to be an IBM > memory expansion. I naively assume that re-configuring those from the > ground up would not be a problem. Of course that's predicated on a > reference disk with the proper ADF files. > I have worked on enough of these to not take chances. It's a pain if you have to guess. If you can't get into the hard drive you can't read the config.sys and autoexec.bat for clues, you can't run a diagnostics as easily. So it's just conservative, my approach. But yes you could just say this is a stock system I have the ref disks I don't see any need to worry. Sounds like you have worked on these enough to know and that's good enough for me. > > I'm assuming that said reference disk, ADF files, and possibly option > disk can be acquired. > > > The chances a model 80 will smoke out or catch fire is less enough > > to make that a secondary concern. > > Thank you for that. > > > no caps like that, this is an IBM. > > Cool. > > I didn't think so. But it's been a long time since I've worked on a > computer 25+ years old. I'm more cautious now than I was the last time > I did so. > > > Even if there is stiction you should still try to boot and capture > > as much info as you can first before you replace the battery. > > Based on previous experience with PS/2s, and re-configuring from the > ground up, I'm not too worried. > > I'd be likely to acquire a new battery and another power source to > connect to the battery terminals while I replace the battery. > > That being said, I should take my volt meter and see if there's anything > at all. If it's dead, then there's not any point in hurrying. > > > I used to work at IBM when they sold these. > > :-) > > THis goes without saying but don't remove the battery! b --===============4350303682651112343==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Mar 9 21:24:45 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:24:31 -0700 Message-ID: <19921e5e-2f90-e77a-2abe-44f5290193cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2265460976726372481==" --===============2265460976726372481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/9/23 1:49 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > I have worked on enough of these to not take chances. It's a pain if > you have to guess. If you can't get into the hard drive you can't read > the config.sys and autoexec.bat for clues, you can't run a diagnostics > as easily. So it's just conservative, my approach. But yes you could > just say this is a stock system I have the ref disks I don't see any > need to worry. Sounds like you have worked on these enough to know > and that's good enough for me. Fair enough. I think it's definitely safe to say that I know that razors are sharp and not to run with scissors. Your conservative approach sounds reasonable. Especially if I don't need to worry about components releasing magic smoke being a likely thing. > THis goes without saying but don't remove the battery! I completely agree, don't remove the battery if it's doing its job. But I'm not aware of any effective difference -- with regard to the configuration -- of a dead battery vs missing battery. When I mentioned power source, I was thinking along the lines of a booster pack plugged into the cigarette lighter powering clocks and the likes while replacing the main car battery. But if everything is, and has been, at zero volts for a while, then there's quite likely not anything to be saved. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============2265460976726372481==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 21:35:07 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:34:51 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3246230792071813270==" --===============3246230792071813270== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well thanks to ya'll prodding - I've brought it up to her again, and she actually said "hmm, alright, maybe" ! Next week happens to be our spring break - so..... we might give it a shot ! So probably no final rendering this weekend - but hopefully by the end of the month. On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 1:39=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Most important of all, for the video, > your daughter should decide what parameters matter to her! > > > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > Sellam, > > > >> It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition > of > >> "personal computer". > > > > One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on > > how it is originally financed. > > > > If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then > > it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush." > > Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and > > whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to > decide > > what to do with it and who is authorized to use it. > > > > Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd > > hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could > > coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original > context > > on how the system came to exist stands. > > > > Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it > > is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage > > putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily > > mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small > furniture > > or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right. > > > > > > A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not > > just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable > > product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or > > obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it > repeatable, > > if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom > > builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") > but > > (to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but > > the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer > > product). > > > > > > -Steve > --===============3246230792071813270==-- From w9gb@icloud.com Thu Mar 9 21:41:28 2023 From: Gregory Beat To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:33:50 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6629378054225815845==" --===============6629378054225815845== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BFIt has been a long-time (almost 40 years now) since I worked part-ti= me at an IBM dealer, BUT attended ALL the IBM hardware training (and later as= an early corporate PC center manager), including the wonderful OS/2 presenta= tions. I also selected that IBM model for my father=E2=80=99s business software, whi= ch required IBM hardware in late 1980s. Most of my documents went to on-line resources, like Tom=C3=A1=C5=A1 Slavotin= ik (Ardent Tool). Start with reading Tom=C3=A1=C5=A1 reference documents =E2=80=A6 to understan= d what you have. Ardent Tool of Capitalism maintained by Tom=C3=A1=C5=A1 Slavotinik current as of 3 March 2023 IBM PS/2 model 80 [8580] : =E2=80=9CWrangler=E2=80=9D https://www.ardent-tool.com/60_65_80/=20 8580-071 Type 1 Planar https://www.ardent-tool.com/8580/Planar_T1.html=20 =E2=80=94 The Diagnostic Disk and Support information for that model can be found there. That Disk and a Fresh battery (as required) is a Good Start. greg chicago =3D=3D Hi, I acquired an IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) today and am looking for advice on= what I should do to check it out before, during, and after applying power fo= r the first time. I'll try to get some pictures if anyone is interested. The label near the power switch says that it's an 8580-071. I have no idea h= ow that compares to the hardware that's in it. There are two full size (5=C2=BC) hard drives, the controller card. I don't = know what type of drives they are yet, they look to be MFM / RLL like in that= they have the common cable and a per drive cable. There is a video card that has a daughter-card in the same slot like a thick = sandwich. There is another card that I don't recognize. The card doesn't have any exte= rnal connectors and it looks like it takes multiple (approximately 4"x4") dau= ghter-cards. I am wondering if this is a memory expansion of some sort. There are two of what I believe are the memory boards between the back hard d= rive and the power supply. The battery is still in the system, but I didn't see any corrosion and it's a= way from the motherboard. There is also the degrading black foam used for air ducting. Blech. Q: What things should I do as part of checking out this system. I'd like to= eventually power it up and see what is on the drives (if they will spin). I need to physically clean it with a damp rag and get some pictures of the sy= stem. Please share any pro-tips / gotchas / etc. that you think I could benefit fro= m knowing. Thank you and have a good day. --=20 Grant. . . . unix || die --===============6629378054225815845==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Mar 9 21:42:24 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 13:42:13 -0800 Message-ID: <7f58c946-c50c-d86c-b213-f7fae79eabb6@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <6bcf26ed-5fbf-b3ca-43cf-6c2d11e01aff@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5374399070083706780==" --===============5374399070083706780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll toss a couple of old IBM magtape variations out: The IBM 728, used on SAGE. 7 track, but not your daddy's 7 track. 3 data tracks either side of a central clock track. Different from either of the pre- and post-series drives (727 and 729) that we have grown to love. And, of course, the 7340 hypertape. Inch-wide cartridge tape, 10 tracks, circa 1961. The 7000 series (e.g. 7070, 7090) used only 8 of the tracks. Does anyone know if the extra tracks were intended for use by the 7030 STRETCH? --Chuck --===============5374399070083706780==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 21:51:59 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:51:44 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8587423954294258772==" --===============8587423954294258772== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to open a huge can of worms.... but... I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" minicomputer. A minicomputer has a core CPU and memory (or racks of memory), then is "decked out" with data storage (racks of wall-sized tape decks), printers, pick-your-typewriter input (or two, or three), and maybe cabinets for serial IO or modem of some sort. So, sometimes I say mainframe when I really mean minicomputer (generally because mainframe just sounds cooler than "mini-computer" -- that is, mainframe clearly conveys the notion of "some big ass computer" whereas minicomputer just needs more clarification). What do you guys think? Or is a mainframe one of those giants so large, you walk inside its CPU? Or, is it like this... computer (a whole building, generally at least two story to support ac ducting and raised floor maintenance -- are these exclusively mainframes?) minicomputer (a single floor or room of a building or possibly a full top of a desk - and, these are NOT mainframes?) microcomputer (half a deck top or smaller, memory and accessories mostly self contained - doesn't necessarily have to have a microprocessor, but typically does) nanocomputer (modern MCU ? like Raspbery Pi) Also - on "personal computer", it's generally implied "digital electronic computers" so we don't have to dwell too much on rocks and beads as computers. Glad we didn't call them "coordinated electron pumpers" :) -Steve --===============8587423954294258772==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 22:00:21 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 16:00:05 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8777474542570543865==" --===============8777474542570543865== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually, to answer my own question: if "main frame" refers to the actual framing... well the PDP-1, PDP-10, PDP-10 were minicomputers and still required a lot of metal "framing" to set up. So, can't they be considered mainframes? (another notion is that mainframes are "multi-user" -- most early microcomputers were not multi-user, as they just barely supported the needs of one user; I'm not sure if the very first minicomputers were multi-user?) The term minicomputer has always been awkward to me -- "mini" in my head just means something smaller than me, which most minicomputers aren't (but they are much smaller than a building). But to say "mainframe" when showing a minicomputer then necessitates some explanation... Can't win :( -Steve On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:51 PM Steve Lewis wrote: > Not to open a huge can of worms.... but... > > I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" > minicomputer. > > A minicomputer has a core CPU and memory (or racks of memory), then is > "decked out" with data storage (racks of wall-sized tape decks), printers, > pick-your-typewriter input (or two, or three), and maybe cabinets for > serial IO or modem of some sort. > > So, sometimes I say mainframe when I really mean minicomputer (generally > because mainframe just sounds cooler than "mini-computer" -- that is, > mainframe clearly conveys the notion of "some big ass computer" whereas > minicomputer just needs more clarification). > > > What do you guys think? Or is a mainframe one of those giants so large, > you walk inside its CPU? > > Or, is it like this... > > computer (a whole building, generally at least two story to support > ac ducting and raised floor maintenance -- are these exclusively > mainframes?) > > minicomputer (a single floor or room of a building or possibly a full > top of a desk - and, these are NOT mainframes?) > > microcomputer (half a deck top or smaller, memory and accessories mostly > self contained - doesn't necessarily have to have a microprocessor, but > typically does) > > nanocomputer (modern MCU ? like Raspbery Pi) > > > Also - on "personal computer", it's generally implied "digital electronic > computers" so we don't have to dwell too much on rocks and beads as > computers. Glad we didn't call them "coordinated electron pumpers" :) > > > > -Steve > > --===============8777474542570543865==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Thu Mar 9 22:05:38 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:05:31 -0800 Message-ID: <4ae50af9-45f3-45c6-11ef-3622661d117e@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2560234860024537725==" --===============2560234860024537725== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This has been around the block: You can lose a screw in a micro. You can lose a screwdriver in a mini. You can get lost in a mainframe. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Merci d'eviter le "Top posting" ------------------------------------------= -- --===============2560234860024537725==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Mar 9 22:06:06 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:05:57 -0500 Message-ID: <0B1C9BD6-8AD0-4F2B-AF93-3FE5B97678E1@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2505076224343324447==" --===============2505076224343324447== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 9, 2023, at 4:51 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Not to open a huge can of worms.... but... >=20 > I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" > minicomputer. >=20 > A minicomputer has a core CPU and memory (or racks of memory), then is > "decked out" with data storage (racks of wall-sized tape decks), printers, > pick-your-typewriter input (or two, or three), and maybe cabinets for > serial IO or modem of some sort. >=20 > So, sometimes I say mainframe when I really mean minicomputer (generally > because mainframe just sounds cooler than "mini-computer" -- that is, > mainframe clearly conveys the notion of "some big ass computer" whereas > minicomputer just needs more clarification). >=20 > What do you guys think? Or is a mainframe one of those giants so large, > you walk inside its CPU? As so often this would be a matter of taste, so I'll just give my view. The term "minicomputer" is a marketing term introduced (or at least populariz= ed) by DEC. It roughly seems to mean a computer that's inexpensive by the st= andards of the day, moderately powerful, and often suitable for use for a sin= gle purpose, or by a single person at a time. =20 A minicomputer as a rule doesn't require specialist personnel, nor special po= wer or cooling. (VAXen push that a bit, especially the earlier large ones.) Conversely, a mainframe tends to be locked in a room with raised floors, spec= ial power and cooling systems, and dedicated operators to keep the machine ru= nning efficiently. I wonder if the term "mainframe" appeared around the same time as "minicomput= er" to distinguish the two. Way before when all computers were big and hairy= you wouldn't need a specific name for them. Obviously there are computers that could have been called "minicomputer" but = predated the term, like the LGP-30, Electrologica X1, and others -- machines = that were similar in size to a PDP-11, and could be powered and cooled in som= ething resembling a normal office space. paul --===============2505076224343324447==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Mar 9 22:09:41 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:09:27 -0500 Message-ID: <50EC8DDE-C7CD-4A03-85C5-72B36F217060@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4543920541155255748==" --===============4543920541155255748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 9, 2023, at 5:00 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Actually, to answer my own question: if "main frame" refers to the actual > framing... well the PDP-1, PDP-10, PDP-10 were minicomputers and still > required a lot of metal "framing" to set up. So, can't they be considered > mainframes? >=20 > (another notion is that mainframes are "multi-user" -- most early > microcomputers were not multi-user, as they just barely supported the needs > of one user; I'm not sure if the very first minicomputers were multi-user?) I wouldn't think so, but "multi-user" is in part an OS question. Many early = machines were large and expensive enough that they would have been called mai= nframes if the term had existed back then, but with small enough memory and l= ack of hardware facilities like interrupts that make a multi-user OS problema= tic. For that matter, recognizable operating systems didn't appear right at = the start. OS/360 is probably not the oldest software system to deserve the = name "operating system" but clearly many of the early machines, even large on= es, were handled by "bare metal programming". paul --===============4543920541155255748==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Mar 9 22:12:05 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:11:59 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8396242285446473137==" --===============8396242285446473137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Actually, to answer my own question: if "main frame" refers to the actual > framing... well the PDP-1, PDP-10, PDP-10 were minicomputers and still > required a lot of metal "framing" to set up. So, can't they be considered > mainframes? > (another notion is that mainframes are "multi-user" -- most early > microcomputers were not multi-user, as they just barely supported the needs > of one user; I'm not sure if the very first minicomputers were multi-user?) > The term minicomputer has always been awkward to me -- "mini" in my head > just means something smaller than me, which most minicomputers aren't (but > they are much smaller than a building). But to say "mainframe" when > showing a minicomputer then necessitates some explanation... Can't win :( > -Steve What is the ORIGIN of the term "mainframe"? Keep in mind that the term "Mini Computer" was invented by marketing people to be able to sell/rent computers to small businesses whose needs were small. LATER, it became obvious that many small businesses that succombed to the sales pitches for minicomputers were even better served by microcomputers, particularly several dedicated ones. Accounting needed a computer, but not much of one; payroll of even a few employees ends up requiring an accountant. And, inventory could use a computer, etc. If there is a graphic arts department, they could use a computer, but with seriously different characteristics. There was s'posedly some internal political issues at IBM about whether the Entry Systems Division (5150, etc.) would cut into the other depaartments. --===============8396242285446473137==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Mar 9 22:18:38 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:12:10 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4642846140368552245==" --===============4642846140368552245== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/9/23 13:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >... Use the NYT definition of a minicomputer from 1970. "Costs less than $25,000" (in 1970 dollars). --Chuck --===============4642846140368552245==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 22:20:54 2023 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:20:38 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8787478861372717860==" --===============8787478861372717860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or something else. Yet this is not the point of the video. Let’s enjoy what has been created and give encouragement to the creators. Kudos to them. Murray 🙂 --===============8787478861372717860==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Mar 9 22:30:51 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:30:43 -0500 Message-ID: <9400BBBE-4F9F-44AD-84FF-E3EAE17390CC@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0636905842273925906==" --===============0636905842273925906== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 9, 2023, at 5:20 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >=20 > A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a > book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is > playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated > with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or > something else. Sure, although that can get fuzzy. A 4004 microcomputer needs multiple chips= . Conversely, I don't think DEC would call an 11/83 a microcomputer even tho= ugh it uses a single chip (J-11) CPU. Ditto the various small VAXen. paul --===============0636905842273925906==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Mar 9 22:50:57 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:50:52 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9400BBBE-4F9F-44AD-84FF-E3EAE17390CC@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2323327584977002618==" --===============2323327584977002618== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 9, 2023, at 5:20 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a >> book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is >> playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated >> with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or >> something else. On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Sure, although that can get fuzzy. A 4004 microcomputer needs multiple=20 > chips. Conversely, I don't think DEC would call an 11/83 a=20 > microcomputer even though it uses a single chip (J-11) CPU. Ditto the=20 > various small VAXen. ALL attempts at dividing lines will have exceptions. I remember when there were attempts to draw the lines based on how much=20 memory each had. But, times change, and my phone is still not a=20 mainframe. BIG / BIGGER / BIGGEST Lose: screw / screwdriver / scope (or technician) pick it up / handtruck / forklift and union moving crew delivery: trunk of your car / delivery truck / moving vanS desk / room / building week's pay / year's pay / financing. sales clerk / visiting salesman / department presentations extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer sane / eccentric / raving lunatic SO is: annoyed / furious / long gone . . . --===============2323327584977002618==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 23:40:34 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:40:16 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9163278748059862438==" --===============9163278748059862438== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:18=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/9/23 13:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > >... > > Use the NYT definition of a minicomputer from 1970. "Costs less than > $25,000" (in 1970 dollars). > > --Chuck Like "vintage", or pornography, it's one of those things that you know it when you see it. Of course, everyone sees different. Your red may not be what I call red. &c. So basically we're doomed to misunderstand one another into eternity. Nothing new under the sun. Sellam > > --===============9163278748059862438==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Mar 9 23:43:40 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:43:25 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8243398010022807072==" --===============8243398010022807072== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of pornography, the ad on page 14 of 80 Micro magazine August 1980 was a bit of a shocker. https://archive.org/details/80-microcomputing-magazine-1980-08/page/n13/mode/= 2up On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 5:40=E2=80=AFPM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:18=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On 3/9/23 13:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > >... > > > > Use the NYT definition of a minicomputer from 1970. "Costs less than > > $25,000" (in 1970 dollars). > > > > --Chuck > > > Like "vintage", or pornography, it's one of those things that you know it > when you see it. > > Of course, everyone sees different. Your red may not be what I call red. > &c. > > So basically we're doomed to misunderstand one another into eternity. > > Nothing new under the sun. > > Sellam > > > > > > --===============8243398010022807072==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Thu Mar 9 23:44:18 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:43:59 -0800 Message-ID: <7099681D-B971-453A-B8AB-30ADD3E7862F@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0643849725301338629==" --===============0643849725301338629== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just ordered your book from Amazon. I am looking forward to reading it.=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 9, 2023, at 2:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Mar 9, 2023, at 5:20 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >>> A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a >>> book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is >>> playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associat= ed >>> with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or >>> something else. >=20 > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Sure, although that can get fuzzy. A 4004 microcomputer needs multiple ch= ips. Conversely, I don't think DEC would call an 11/83 a microcomputer even = though it uses a single chip (J-11) CPU. Ditto the various small VAXen. >=20 > ALL attempts at dividing lines will have exceptions. >=20 > I remember when there were attempts to draw the lines based on how much mem= ory each had. But, times change, and my phone is still not a mainframe. >=20 >=20 > BIG / BIGGER / BIGGEST >=20 > Lose: > screw / screwdriver / scope (or technician) >=20 > pick it up / handtruck / forklift and union moving crew >=20 > delivery: > trunk of your car / delivery truck / moving vanS >=20 > desk / room / building >=20 > week's pay / year's pay / financing. >=20 > sales clerk / visiting salesman / department presentations >=20 > extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer >=20 > sane / eccentric / raving lunatic >=20 > SO is: > annoyed / furious / long gone >=20 > . . . >=20 >=20 --===============0643849725301338629==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Mar 10 00:00:45 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 18:00:39 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2515698578187688954==" --===============2515698578187688954== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things for 5 more years.  After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to anyone. Interesting thoughts there. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============2515698578187688954==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 00:34:42 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 16:34:32 -0800 Message-ID: <51cfd1af-7cd3-4694-e85d-8dd6a6d55857@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6035010142655662956==" --===============6035010142655662956== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/9/23 16:00, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ > > Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, > noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to > handle things for 5 more years.  After that, he thinks the company will > not transfer to anyone. I recall reading a similar article about him. I can understand--nobody manufactures the things today, after all, not to mention the equipment for handling them. I'm sure that some will survive--witness paper tape. In the meantime, the conversion business is still good. --Chuck --===============6035010142655662956==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Mar 10 01:33:55 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 19:33:48 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3626407942698413836==" --===============3626407942698413836== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/9/23 15:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Not to open a huge can of worms.... but... > > I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" > minicomputer. Well, the IBM 709x was housed in 11 or more cabinets that were larger than the largest home refrigerator.  These cabinets were interconnected by cables containing 100 coax cables and had one-foot square connectors with 200 pins.  The 7094 had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit cards.  This was a TRULY huge computer system.  The 7030 STRETCH was built with similar technology, but way more of those cabinets. Jon --===============3626407942698413836==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 01:45:23 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:45:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6128096544853956407==" --===============6128096544853956407== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/9/23 17:33, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 3/9/23 15:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Well, the IBM 709x was housed in 11 or more cabinets that were larger > than the largest home refrigerator.=C2=A0 These cabinets were interconnected > by cables containing 100 coax cables and had one-foot square connectors > with 200 pins.=C2=A0 The 7094 had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit > cards.=C2=A0 This was a TRULY huge computer system.=C2=A0 The 7030 STRETCH = was > built with similar technology, but way more of those cabinets. https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/d7fd7af8c26e659d712bf029d2287c919847e49= 8/2-Figure2-1.png And that's not counting the stations or SBUs. 1970s. --Chuck --===============6128096544853956407==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Mar 10 01:56:56 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:56:28 -0500 Message-ID: <4C32AB64-3D47-444D-9465-F00010D7A830@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8675899750346658307==" --===============8675899750346658307== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 3/9/23 17:33, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/9/23 15:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Well, the IBM 709x was housed in 11 or more cabinets that were larger >> than the largest home refrigerator. These cabinets were interconnected >> by cables containing 100 coax cables and had one-foot square connectors >> with 200 pins. The 7094 had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit >> cards. This was a TRULY huge computer system. The 7030 STRETCH was >> built with similar technology, but way more of those cabinets. >=20 > https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/d7fd7af8c26e659d712bf029d2287c919847e= 498/2-Figure2-1.png >=20 > And that's not counting the stations or SBUs. 1970s. >=20 > --Chuck That picture serves to remind us of the packaging and cooling genius that wen= t into the CDC 6000 series machines, which could fairly be called the first s= upercomputers. Logic like that and more, but in a much smaller package so it= can run faster. I suppose it didn't hurd that timing margins were shrunk do= wn to microscopic values (and, if you try to analyze the design, sometimes th= ey become negative, but somehow the machine worked anyway). They added a bun= ch of amazing magic to the core memory as well. paul --===============8675899750346658307==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Mar 10 02:05:31 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 18:05:26 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4C32AB64-3D47-444D-9465-F00010D7A830@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4284916790617936330==" --===============4284916790617936330== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > That picture serves to remind us of the packaging and cooling genius > that went into the CDC 6000 series machines, which could fairly be > called the first supercomputers. Logic like that and more, but in a > much smaller package so it can run faster. I suppose it didn't hurd > that timing margins were shrunk down to microscopic values (and, if you > try to analyze the design, sometimes they become negative, but somehow > the machine worked anyway). They added a bunch of amazing magic to the > core memory as well. So, what defines a "supercomputer"? Microcomputer Minicomputer mainframe supercomputer "lose a screw" / "lose screwdriver" /"lose scope" / "lose technician" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4284916790617936330==-- From shumaker@att.net Fri Mar 10 02:24:25 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 18:24:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1998649280531400891==" --===============1998649280531400891== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable for the non mainframe folks here, what does SBU/SCU/SDU mean? Steve On 3/9/23 5:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/9/23 17:33, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/9/23 15:51, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >> Well, the IBM 709x was housed in 11 or more cabinets that were larger >> than the largest home refrigerator.=C2=A0 These cabinets were interconnect= ed >> by cables containing 100 coax cables and had one-foot square connectors >> with 200 pins.=C2=A0 The 7094 had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit >> cards.=C2=A0 This was a TRULY huge computer system.=C2=A0 The 7030 STRETCH= was >> built with similar technology, but way more of those cabinets. > https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/d7fd7af8c26e659d712bf029d2287c919847e= 498/2-Figure2-1.png > > And that's not counting the stations or SBUs. 1970s. > > --Chuck > > --===============1998649280531400891==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 02:40:56 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 18:40:41 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <51cfd1af-7cd3-4694-e85d-8dd6a6d55857@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3561611654653840785==" --===============3561611654653840785== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 4:34=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/9/23 16:00, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ > > > > Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, > > noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to > > handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will > > not transfer to anyone. > > I recall reading a similar article about him. I can understand--nobody > manufactures the things today, after all, not to mention the equipment > for handling them. > > I'm sure that some will survive--witness paper tape. In the meantime, > the conversion business is still good. > > --Chuck > Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage. I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? Sellam --===============3561611654653840785==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 03:52:05 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 19:51:54 -0800 Message-ID: <8d099750-48c7-47b7-a66d-b6aa37891401@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <4C32AB64-3D47-444D-9465-F00010D7A830@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6828856769531365499==" --===============6828856769531365499== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/9/23 17:56, Paul Koning wrote: > That picture serves to remind us of the packaging and cooling genius that w= ent into the CDC 6000 series machines, which could fairly be called the first= supercomputers. Logic like that and more, but in a much smaller package so = it can run faster. I suppose it didn't hurd that timing margins were shrunk = down to microscopic values (and, if you try to analyze the design, sometimes = they become negative, but somehow the machine worked anyway). They added a b= unch of amazing magic to the core memory as well. >=20 The STAR was Jim Thornton's brainchild, so he was quite familiar with the 6000 and 7000 series. I believe that the STAR used 7000 SCM core. Most of the pipeline units were 128 bits wide; caore bus width was 512+SECDED. A fair amount of effort was put into finding something that could feed the "STAR channel" at full bandwidth; hence, the 100K RPM STAR drum and the SCROLL. Neither of which made it out of the lab. It was a system of extremes. Apparently, in the beginning, Fairchild had huge problems producing the chips for the register file (256x64 bits). Neil Lincoln took over the project after Thornton got interested in other things, after the departure of Seymour. I remember seeing an excavator digging a trench around the employee parking lot at ARHOPS for some high-speed network experiments of T's. Not that Neil was a slouch in that department. Witness the liquid nitrogen-cooled ETA-10 super. This when people were waxing lyrical about Seymour's Fluorinert "Bubbles". Heady days back then--you almost needed a program to keep track of the various projects. --Chuck --===============6828856769531365499==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 03:54:40 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 19:54:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3f827949-397a-7deb-2ed0-6f12bed7fcc4@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5134996254685957601==" --===============5134996254685957601== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/9/23 18:24, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > for the non mainframe folks here, what does SBU/SCU/SDU mean? SBU-station buffer unit, but why not read about it in a contemporary article by Chuck Purcell? https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1500175.1500257 --Chuck --===============5134996254685957601==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Mar 10 03:57:10 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 19:57:04 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5498411148746802915==" --===============5498411148746802915== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage. > I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of > 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses large areas/sheets of magnetic material? Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses a liquid magnetic media that could be used for the coating, and might even be available, or would that also need to be bespoke manufactured? How precisely does the coating need to be put down? It certainly doesn't seem like a reasonable, PRACTICAL project. But we tend not to BE reasonable and practical. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5498411148746802915==-- From shumaker@att.net Fri Mar 10 04:06:59 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:06:51 -0800 Message-ID: <8d67e01f-9825-c16b-9092-ec8ecb860c4e@att.net> In-Reply-To: <3f827949-397a-7deb-2ed0-6f12bed7fcc4@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3180318715542863528==" --===============3180318715542863528== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks! Steve On 3/9/23 7:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/9/23 18:24, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> for the non mainframe folks here, what does SBU/SCU/SDU mean? > SBU-station buffer unit, but why not read about it in a contemporary > article by Chuck Purcell? > > https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1500175.1500257 > > --Chuck > > --===============3180318715542863528==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 04:10:26 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:10:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1879348304151365837==" --===============1879348304151365837== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As to what a "station" looked like: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/15/6d/fa/156dfa0a3b573b6ff9ca074d62fb19a9.jpg Those things with CRT terminals on them are stations--they handle the various I/O tasks. Basically, 16 bit minicomputers. The photo might be the installation at CDC ADL, from the low ceiling and cramped space. During the OPEC oil embargo, I made myself comfortable with a pillow borrowed from my room at the Ramada and a good book nestled between the SBUs. It was probably the warmest place for miles. The offices at ARHOPS, by contrast, had ice on the inside of the windows... Back then, in Sunnyvale, you had three choices if you were doing OS development. You could turn in your build materials to the STAR-1Bs at SVLOPS and hope that an all-night (the 1B ran at 1/100 the speed of the 100) session didn't end in a system crash. You could finagle some CE time at Lawrence Livermore, which was far from a sure thing (one of the reasons for having a DOE "Q" clearance). Or you could hop the "noon balloon" out of San Jose to the Twin Cities and use the STAR at ADL. If it was wintertime, my department in Sunnyvale had a "community parka" for those unfortunates visiting the land of ice sports. --Chuck --===============1879348304151365837==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Mar 10 04:14:31 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:14:26 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0978968681436136088==" --===============0978968681436136088== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage. > I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of > 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? In "Secret Life of Machines", season 2, episode 6, they make crude audio tape from powdered rust and sticky tape ("Scotch tape" for those unconcerned about trademarks) . . . would have to be a lot less crude than that --===============0978968681436136088==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 04:14:59 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:14:50 -0800 Message-ID: <0a0a1cb4-26f2-2bd2-0b5b-eec2f75957b9@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3490319914066017438==" --===============3490319914066017438== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of > 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust altogether. The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however. Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market... --Chuck --===============3490319914066017438==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 04:15:57 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:15:41 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7243389248115681923==" --===============7243389248115681923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 7:57=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage. > > I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches > of > > 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? > > Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses large areas/sheets of > magnetic material? > > Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses a liquid magnetic media > that could be used for the coating, and might even be available, or would > that also need to be bespoke manufactured? > > How precisely does the coating need to be put down? > > It certainly doesn't seem like a reasonable, PRACTICAL project. But we > tend not to BE reasonable and practical. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com Reasonable? Are you serious? We run decades, even half century old computing machines in our garages for fun. I would've suggested the manufacturers of debit/credit cards as a source for the magnetic material but that seems to be giving way to the chips. But I'll be willing to bet a supplier could be found on Ali Baba for some sort of magnetic thin film material. It would be cheating, but floppy disks won't be re-invented in a day. Ultimately, it would be fun to actually mix up the magnetic paste and apply it to a flexible mylar disc with a centrifuge. It would definitely be an adventure. And a very unreasonable one at that. Sellam --===============7243389248115681923==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Mar 10 04:34:15 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:34:10 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0a0a1cb4-26f2-2bd2-0b5b-eec2f75957b9@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3378304615705553734==" --===============3378304615705553734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of >> 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust > altogether. > > The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if > anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the > same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however. > > Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market... I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a "need" other than nostalgia. --===============3378304615705553734==-- From chrise@pobox.com Fri Mar 10 04:35:29 2023 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 22:29:36 -0600 Message-ID: <253BB04D-84CC-4447-8F0B-1F0BEB45C969@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1042226976890145915==" --===============1042226976890145915== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We still have ice on the inside of the windows up here =F0=9F=98=89 Nice of you guys to remember this history. Some of the STAR designers and te= am are still around and kicking. Just had lunch with four of them last Frida= y. I learned too that as they migrated the design from STAR to 205 to ETA10, som= e of that =E2=80=9Cmagic=E2=80=9D in the logic design became black magic as t= hey got stuff working, like stream instructions, but didn=E2=80=99t know how= or why :-) Simulation said it shouldn=E2=80=99t work but reality said it = did=E2=80=A6 cje -- Chris Elmquist > On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAs to what a "station" looked like: >=20 > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/15/6d/fa/156dfa0a3b573b6ff9ca074d62fb19a9.jpg >=20 > Those things with CRT terminals on them are stations--they handle the > various I/O tasks. Basically, 16 bit minicomputers. >=20 > The photo might be the installation at CDC ADL, from the low ceiling and > cramped space. During the OPEC oil embargo, I made myself comfortable > with a pillow borrowed from my room at the Ramada and a good book > nestled between the SBUs. It was probably the warmest place for miles. > The offices at ARHOPS, by contrast, had ice on the inside of the > windows... >=20 > Back then, in Sunnyvale, you had three choices if you were doing OS > development. You could turn in your build materials to the STAR-1Bs at > SVLOPS and hope that an all-night (the 1B ran at 1/100 the speed of the > 100) session didn't end in a system crash. You could finagle some CE > time at Lawrence Livermore, which was far from a sure thing (one of the > reasons for having a DOE "Q" clearance). Or you could hop the "noon > balloon" out of San Jose to the Twin Cities and use the STAR at ADL. If > it was wintertime, my department in Sunnyvale had a "community parka" > for those unfortunates visiting the land of ice sports. >=20 > --Chuck --===============1042226976890145915==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Mar 10 05:58:15 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 23:58:09 -0600 Message-ID: <2fac21d7-eca6-d964-befc-e906db8c810a@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3983747948145602539==" --===============3983747948145602539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/9/2023 10:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a > "need" other than nostalgia. I've actually considered trying to research finding equipment to manufacture such media, and/or recreating it.  Everyone needs another hobby, right? That said, in my day job, I've seen IT folks at times be their worst enemy in focusing so much energy in keeping outdated items running, only to discover a lack of support to upgrade/replace said items because they've removed the friction of staying with the outdated device/system. Part of me sees the same issue here.  It'd be expensive but not insurmountable to recreate lots of media options, and even more realistic if some of the old manufacturing equipment is still mothballed and not scrapped.  But, putting new floppy disk media into the market, even at inflated prices, would remove the friction IT resources have depended on to force governments and businesses to at least migrate to solid state replacements, if not fully upgraded systems. Obviously, the cost (and the fact that finding existing equipment to un-mothball is the much more realistic an option to pursue rather than trying to fabricate new equipment) is a significant roadblock, but I also hesitate for the above reason.  It's almost like a few more years need to pass, to force the remaining holdouts to realize floppydisk.com and eBay and the nature of rust glued onto mylar will not exist much longer at quality levels that companies can risk. Then, I'm hoping someone with deeper pockets than I starts production :-) Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============3983747948145602539==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 06:16:45 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 22:16:30 -0800 Message-ID: <7fc6de1f-5be9-a07c-c914-bdf8fd85708a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <7f58c946-c50c-d86c-b213-f7fae79eabb6@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6057845955243497984==" --===============6057845955243497984== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe that this photo shows a Datamatic 1000 tape next to a standard 1/2" drive. https://i.pinimg.com/564x/00/3e/7d/003e7d4e3a2478db0b9a7c94f2033252.jpg --Chuck --===============6057845955243497984==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri Mar 10 06:30:40 2023 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 06:30:35 +0000 Message-ID: <7w7cvp2k50.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3492769875859682658==" --===============3492769875859682658== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred Cisin wrote: > So, what defines a "supercomputer"? FLOPS --===============3492769875859682658==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri Mar 10 06:39:20 2023 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 06:39:16 +0000 Message-ID: <7w356d2jqj.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5768784290508720032==" --===============5768784290508720032== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Lewis wrote: > I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" > minicomputer. You may find people will disagree with that. I'm not sure what mainframe means either, but I'm asking around. Pysical size, I/O capacity, CPU offload to front ends, and users served seem to factor into it. > Actually, to answer my own question: if "main frame" refers to the actual > framing... well the PDP-1, PDP-10, PDP-10 were minicomputers and still > required a lot of metal "framing" to set up. So, can't they be considered > mainframes? I believe the term minicomputer was first applied to the PDP-8. It was kind of retroactively applied going back to the PDP-1. Whether the PDP-10 is a mini is sometimes hotly debated. IBM people say no, DEC peole say yes. > another notion is that mainframes are "multi-user" -- most early > microcomputers were not multi-user, as they just barely supported the needs > of one user; I'm not sure if the very first minicomputers were > multi-user? Kind of yes, but recally early computers were often operated in batch mode. Minis would typically do one task, or handle a few users. > The term minicomputer has always been awkward to me -- "mini" in my > head just means something smaller than me, which most minicomputers > aren't Consider that a minicomputer is larger than microcomputer. > But to say "mainframe" when showing a minicomputer I don't think that does a service to anyone. --===============5768784290508720032==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 06:46:25 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 22:46:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7w356d2jqj.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2186351497700161526==" --===============2186351497700161526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/9/23 22:39, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > Consider that a minicomputer is larger than microcomputer. Consider the terms (now rarely seen): "midicomputer" and "superminicomputer" --Chuck --===============2186351497700161526==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Mar 10 06:51:21 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FD-55 360kB HLS spares for sale? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 00:51:14 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0119695331585658565==" --===============0119695331585658565== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The USB FDC controller ICs finally arrived and I am working to clear the project desk to build a dev board.  As part of testing, I'm wondering if anyone has any working FD55B drives for sale with the HLS?  I am the market for 1-2 more, and I thought it'd be nice to get one for this project instead of trying to liberate one of my drives from a  working machine. I see the links on eBay (a few untested HLS variants and a working non HLS one available), but would prefer a working HLS B. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============0119695331585658565==-- From maxwell@buffalo.edu Fri Mar 10 06:57:22 2023 From: John Maxwell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 21:24:28 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3b63f8a5-228c-aed7-3276-beeee2bd83e0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6067881382653016188==" --===============6067881382653016188== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >On 3/9/23 10:16 AM, John Maxwell wrote: >> Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you=20 >> don't have one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. >Yep. I'm well aware. This is not my 1st PS/2 rodeo. I actually cut my tee= th on used PS/2s in the mid-90s. >> I _should_ have a copy of one lying around (or already=20 >>imaged/archived) >> - the main problem is finding the ADF (Adaptor Description Files) for=20 >> the added features/cards. >The usual suspects in the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware newsgroup have already p= rovided links to some ADF files for what they assume the boards likely are ba= sed >on my descriptions. >Aside: I thought that ADF was short for Auto Definition File. But I can se= e how Adapter works too. >> My copy of the Reference Disk would not likely have any ADFs from=20 >> obscure cards, but should have the common files. >Based on my descriptions, the presumption is that I've got a standard (for t= he model 80) ESDI controller, an 8514/A video card, and an IBM 386 Memory Exp= ansion >Adapter. I don't consider those to be too exotic. [snip] >I'm always interested in growing my ADF collection. :-) Is there a repository to where I can upload diskette images? What format is i= n widespread use these days? I use DiskImage (Ver5) and Dave Dunfield's Image= Disk (Ver1.17) - both work well. I seem to recall that DiskImage is a commerc= ial product and ImageDisk is still available for free. >> ADFs were text files with descriptions of hardware addresses and the=20 >> like. >That sounds like what I remember. >> Not sure of what you mean by 'Rifas' in the last question. Probably an=20 >> acronym or other abbreviation of something I may know about, but=20 >> nothing comes to my foggy brain presently. >My understanding is that RIFA is a brand of capacitor which had a model like= which is notorious for failing after time and they seemed to be common in th= e '90s. Not sure that IBM would use cheap *anything* in their equipment. [snip] >*nod* That's what I was referring to as sticktion. A word of warning, the "inertial rotation" procedure was great for smaller dr= ives, but you may break your arm applying this to an ESDI :-) >I don't know the state of the bearings. Is there anything that I can or sho= uld do for them? Aside from dismantling the drive, not really. Just cross your fingers and pra= y. Usually not a problem. I have an ST225 which had been powered off for two = decades and it came up fine in my DEC Rainbow! >> The battery used is one of the old 6V photoflash types (cannot recall=20 >> the model, unfortunately). I have a few of them left in my collection=20 >> - just ran into them in a box (with 2 or 3 left) a few months ago.=20 >> Each still had over 6v (no load) at the terminals. No idea how long=20 >> they would last in application under load, though, even though the=20 >> Model >> 80 didn't use too much current to hold things in config memory. >ACK >My assumption is that the Model 80 has been powered off for years, if not a = decade or more. It's on the older end of a five computers I picked up from s= omeone >who wanted them hauled away. I'm not holding my breath that they pow= ered the PS/2 on anytime in the last decade. ;-) It is my belief that these batteries should still be available from somewhere= . If I think of it when I get home, I'll dig out the box and relay the model = number. Provided that the box is still where I remember. >> Just my $0.02 (not even sure it was worth that much). Good luck with=20 >> your 80. >Thank you. You're sharing things that seem familiar. Which is appreciated = because it means that my memory isn't that far out of calibration or bit rot. --===============6067881382653016188==-- From go4retro@go4retro.com Fri Mar 10 06:57:25 2023 From: RETRO Innovations To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:54:44 -0600 Message-ID: <14a3efbf-583c-137a-550e-504cfcf4bf6a@go4retro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5152313035841895015==" --===============5152313035841895015== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things for 5 more years.  After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to anyone. Interesting thoughts there. Jim -- RETRO Innovations, Contemporary Gear for Classic Systems www.go4retro.com store.go4retro.com --===============5152313035841895015==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Fri Mar 10 06:57:30 2023 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 19:53:27 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1455404561593505984==" --===============1455404561593505984== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on somethin= g as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let 5.25 floppies go I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images.=20 Cz On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ > >Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting= that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle thing= s for 5 more years.=C2=A0 After that, he thinks the company will not transfer= to anyone. > >Interesting thoughts there. > >Jim > >--=20 >Jim Brain >brain(a)jbrain.com >www.jbrain.com > --===============1455404561593505984==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Mar 10 07:13:16 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:13:11 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0062423949934386817==" --===============0062423949934386817== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thats exactly the solution. Just keep a few floppies around so that you can = transfer a saved image back to floppy to be read by the machine that needs it. Personally, there was so much media manufactured that I think the machines th= at read the media will fail long before we run out of media. Wayne > On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:57 PM, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on someth= ing as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let 5.25 floppies go >=20 > I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images.=20 >=20 > Cz >=20 >> On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ >>=20 >> Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noti= ng that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle thi= ngs for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to= anyone. >>=20 >> Interesting thoughts there. >>=20 >> Jim >>=20 >> --=20 >> Jim Brain >> brain(a)jbrain.com >> www.jbrain.com >>=20 --===============0062423949934386817==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Mar 10 07:17:12 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:17:07 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR15MB4828D1A88639474CD7E8A68DB3B59=40CO1PR15MB?= =?utf-8?q?4828=2Enamprd15=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0164608371373757301==" --===============0164608371373757301== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Snip=20 On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:57 PM, John Maxwell via cctalk wrote: >>> On 3/9/23 10:16 AM, John Maxwell wrote: >>> Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you=20 >>> don't have one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. >>=20 >=20 > Is there a repository to where I can upload diskette images? What format is= in widespread use these days? I use DiskImage (Ver5) and Dave Dunfield's Ima= geDisk (Ver1.17) - both work well. I seem to recall that DiskImage is a comme= rcial product and ImageDisk is still available for free. Some may disagree , but i upload stuff like this to the Internet Archive. >=20 >>> ADFs were text files with descriptions of hardware addresses and the=20 >>> like. >=20 >> That sounds like what I remember. >=20 >>> Not sure of what you mean by 'Rifas' in the last question. Probably an=20 >>> acronym or other abbreviation of something I may know about, but=20 >>> nothing comes to my foggy brain presently. >=20 >> My understanding is that RIFA is a brand of capacitor which had a model li= ke which is notorious for failing after time and they seemed to be common in = the '90s. >=20 > Not sure that IBM would use cheap *anything* in their equipment. >=20 > [snip] >=20 >> *nod* That's what I was referring to as sticktion. >=20 > A word of warning, the "inertial rotation" procedure was great for smaller = drives, but you may break your arm applying this to an ESDI :-) >=20 >> I don't know the state of the bearings. Is there anything that I can or s= hould do for them? >=20 > Aside from dismantling the drive, not really. Just cross your fingers and p= ray. Usually not a problem. I have an ST225 which had been powered off for tw= o decades and it came up fine in my DEC Rainbow! >=20 >>> The battery used is one of the old 6V photoflash types (cannot recall=20 >>> the model, unfortunately). I have a few of them left in my collection=20 >>> - just ran into them in a box (with 2 or 3 left) a few months ago.=20 >>> Each still had over 6v (no load) at the terminals. No idea how long=20 >>> they would last in application under load, though, even though the=20 >>> Model >>> 80 didn't use too much current to hold things in config memory. >=20 >> ACK >=20 >> My assumption is that the Model 80 has been powered off for years, if not = a decade or more. It's on the older end of a five computers I picked up from= someone >who wanted them hauled away. I'm not holding my breath that they p= owered the PS/2 on anytime in the last decade. ;-) >=20 > It is my belief that these batteries should still be available from somewhe= re. If I think of it when I get home, I'll dig out the box and relay the mode= l number. Provided that the box is still where I remember. >=20 >>> Just my $0.02 (not even sure it was worth that much). Good luck with=20 >>> your 80. >=20 >> Thank you. You're sharing things that seem familiar. Which is appreciate= d because it means that my memory isn't that far out of calibration or bit ro= t. >=20 --===============0164608371373757301==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Fri Mar 10 07:30:20 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 01:30:14 -0600 Message-ID: <7ae9dd3d-6e4d-0b4b-78c1-3cbe07c72af5@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <7fc6de1f-5be9-a07c-c914-bdf8fd85708a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1807063448766530915==" --===============1807063448766530915== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/10/23 00:16, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I believe that this photo shows a Datamatic 1000 tape next to a standard > 1/2" drive. > > https://i.pinimg.com/564x/00/3e/7d/003e7d4e3a2478db0b9a7c94f2033252.jpg > > --Chuck > Hub size looks small on the 1/2" for later style tapes.  2" tape?  I wonder if that was linear?  Had to have impressive motors. Our Ampex 1/2" 7 track data tapes which ran 200ips to get any sort of bandwidth had huge motors on it.  One of the 3/4ips to 200ips machines with 10 push buttons, similar to the similar chart recorders with up to that speed. FWIW, OT, I visited a small TV production facility in Springfield Mo (got some excess equipment), and they had the Betacam, 3/4" Umatic, and a 1" machine for editing.  Most has gone to digital storage. They had a mirrored 22tb server, and used Mac and the like for production editing.  Most use was for a 3 camera studio, but could mostly do talking head direct to digital. Anyway never saw either a data or video 2" in person. thanks Jim --===============1807063448766530915==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Fri Mar 10 07:40:21 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:40:09 +0000 Message-ID: <1114191487.1075219.1678434009286@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <7fc6de1f-5be9-a07c-c914-bdf8fd85708a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3319631626498520406==" --===============3319631626498520406== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That reel of 3 onch tape is heavy...=C2=A0Ihave a reel and the 30 something t= rack tape head....gee I could rig a rrader.... ed# Sent from AOL on Android On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 11:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I believe that this photo shows a Datamatic 1000 tape next to a standard1/2" = drive. https://i.pinimg.com/564x/00/3e/7d/003e7d4e3a2478db0b9a7c94f2033252.jpg --Chuck =20 --===============3319631626498520406==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 10 09:15:33 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:15:17 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR15MB48280B7FBC4B23D36C707638B3B59=40CO1PR15MB?= =?utf-8?q?4828=2Enamprd15=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3495797865231092677==" --===============3495797865231092677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, John Maxwell wrote: > Nowhere do I see any mention of a Model 80 Reference Disk. If you don't > have one of these, you will not be able to configure the machine. I > _should_ have a copy of one lying around (or already imaged/archived) - https://ardent-tool.com/disks/ https://ardent-tool.com/disks/rf7080a.zip https://ardent-tool.com/8580/Common.html First result from Google. (The Model 80 is identical to the Model 70 in this respect. The 80 is the tower version of the 70 desktop) Christian --===============3495797865231092677==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 09:39:06 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 01:38:57 -0800 Message-ID: <338f465b-148d-851b-0ebf-777e6aa4e2c8@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <7ae9dd3d-6e4d-0b4b-78c1-3cbe07c72af5@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3086015110298582168==" --===============3086015110298582168== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/9/23 23:30, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/10/23 00:16, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I believe that this photo shows a Datamatic 1000 tape next to a standard >> 1/2" drive. >> >> https://i.pinimg.com/564x/00/3e/7d/003e7d4e3a2478db0b9a7c94f2033252.jpg >> >> --Chuck >> > Hub size looks small on the 1/2" for later style tapes.  2" tape?  I > wonder if that was linear?  Had to have impressive motors. Noted! Possibly a H400 drive that uses 3/4" tape (10 channel).? Very early in any case. --Chuck --===============3086015110298582168==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 10:12:53 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] domesticating the computer Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 04:12:37 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5113841401752497688==" --===============5113841401752497688== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (I think I prefer the original title of the video my daughter and I have been working on - but still open to opinions about it) Here is TAKE #10 (still AI narrated and a draft, but I found some Census data that may be interesting and had some other revisions that I hope some folks like!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eaolOAcvmg In the Description of the above, I have a note on where to get the image link if anyone is interested in that. Thanks again for the support and encouragement. Over the next week I hope to try out a Live Narration and wrap this up. -Steve summary of changes 0:28 expanded note on CRT (more time to press pause if you want to read) 5:04 new assembly line image, from actual TRS-80 "factory" (still using term "motherboard") 5:55 Apple2 date set to April (going with "announcement dates") revised "BYTE" quote (to be a little better organized) 6:46 revised intro of Z80 6:55 added Kildall image 7:12 revised intro of 6502 7:41 revised VisiCalc presentation (in 1979 he had split window, plotting, and freeze panes!) 9:42 clarify credit of suggesting 86-DOS to Paul Allen (instead of Bill) 10:11 minor revisions in Tandy 1000 presentation 12:31 revised wording of Alto description 13:35 shortend PC-5000 description slightly 13:47 added census report 13:55 (forgot delay in showing critters) 14:04 added online services note 14:22 (more personal computers! extra points if you can name them) --===============5113841401752497688==-- From ethan@757.org Fri Mar 10 12:49:40 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:49:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0a0a1cb4-26f2-2bd2-0b5b-eec2f75957b9@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8721557333788037252==" --===============8721557333788037252== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if > anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the > same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however. ATR Magnetics (www.atrtape.com) and others still produce audio tape. They have normal consumer-style stuff up to the 2" reels. Not sure if the 2" stuff they sell will work on digital machines like the Sony DASH machines. Cassette tapes are kind of back a little as well and apparently there are duplication houses for them again. -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============8721557333788037252==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Fri Mar 10 14:02:29 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 06:02:11 -0800 Message-ID: <4BDE5D7D-0E4A-4EC8-B9BE-CE484EC1CBE2@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: <14a3efbf-583c-137a-550e-504cfcf4bf6a@go4retro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8378682087435962138==" --===============8378682087435962138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Floppydisk.com also sells 100 promotional disks (no working disks) for $12. T= hey also sell 5.25 nonworking ones with different colors that can be used for= projects. I think those would be nice for making art projects at schools, ma= ncaves, and home offices. Good coffee coasters like the old days too.=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:57 PM, RETRO Innovations via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFhttps://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ >=20 > Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, notin= g that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle thin= gs for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to = anyone. >=20 > Interesting thoughts there. >=20 > Jim >=20 > --=20 > RETRO Innovations, Contemporary Gear for Classic Systems > www.go4retro.com > store.go4retro.com >=20 --===============8378682087435962138==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Mar 10 14:15:12 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:14:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7ae9dd3d-6e4d-0b4b-78c1-3cbe07c72af5@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5557979985255636076==" --===============5557979985255636076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 10, 2023, at 2:30 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 3/10/23 00:16, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I believe that this photo shows a Datamatic 1000 tape next to a standard >> 1/2" drive. >>=20 >> https://i.pinimg.com/564x/00/3e/7d/003e7d4e3a2478db0b9a7c94f2033252.jpg >>=20 >> --Chuck >>=20 > Hub size looks small on the 1/2" for later style tapes. 2" tape? I wonder= if that was linear? Had to have impressive motors. Early on the hub specs tended to vary. For example, the EL-X1 10-track 1/2 i= nch tape uses 1/2 inch instrumentation type reels (same as professional audio= reels) which have a bigger hub than the later standard 1/2 inch tapes, with = 3 notches. paul --===============5557979985255636076==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Mar 10 14:20:15 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:20:06 -0500 Message-ID: <84D77F4A-A809-4A31-B12B-4A77DB83B8CE@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0531259939653116575==" --===============0531259939653116575== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 9, 2023, at 11:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of >>> 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? >=20 > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust >> altogether. >>=20 >> The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if >> anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the >> same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however. >>=20 >> Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market... >=20 > I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a "need" o= ther than nostalgia. There's an old saying that the perfect business to be in is one large enough = for one vendor, too small for two. It certainly would be conceivable for som= oene to buy up the business when the current owner retires, if there's reason= to believe there is enough revenue to keep one or two people happy. It's no= different from the thousands or perhaps millions of small manufacturing busi= nesses. Curiously enough, some of these close down when the owner retires wi= thout an apparent effort to find a buyer -- I remember a local tote bag compa= ny, or for that matter the much lamented Lindsay Publications. For a nice example of a small business in our subject area, consider Ersatz-1= 1. paul --===============0531259939653116575==-- From Kevin@RawFedDogs.net Fri Mar 10 15:33:16 2023 From: Kevin Monceaux To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:05:20 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7701690575079399858==" --===============7701690575079399858== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 03:51:44PM -0600, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" > minicomputer. I've always considered a fully decked out minicomputer to be a fully decked out minicomputer. :-) > What do you guys think? Or is a mainframe one of those giants so large, > you walk inside its CPU? Mainframes used to be that large. But these days it's hard to tell by size. When I first got into mainframe operations as an IBM OS/390 operator at my previous employers near the end of the last century, the mainframe was over in the corner of the computer room and was about the size of two large commercial refrigerators back to back. I wish I had gotten into mainframe operations a little sooner. They had just recently migrated to that box from a water cooled IBM 3090 that filled half of the computer room. I would have loved to have gotten to know the 3090. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. --===============7701690575079399858==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Mar 10 15:41:55 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:41:46 -0500 Message-ID: <6ECC0318-29D3-4CFE-A595-72ED70697644@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8834481528132249317==" --===============8834481528132249317== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 10, 2023, at 10:05 AM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 03:51:44PM -0600, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" >> minicomputer. >=20 > I've always considered a fully decked out minicomputer to be a fully decked > out minicomputer. :-) >=20 >> What do you guys think? Or is a mainframe one of those giants so large, >> you walk inside its CPU? >=20 > Mainframes used to be that large. But these days it's hard to tell by size. Similarly, supercomputers tend to be physically small, because it can't be re= ally fast if it's big -- speed of light considerations. That's why supercomp= uter design has a major packaging and cooling element to it. Both the CDC 66= 00 (1964) and the Cray 1 show this very clearly: a great deal of effort went = into making them unusually small for the amount of stuff inside. You can't really get inside a 6600. You can get inside a Cray 1, just barely. paul --===============8834481528132249317==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Fri Mar 10 16:06:24 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:06:02 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <006d01d951f5$44fba480$cef2ed80$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8732345827967599114==" --===============8732345827967599114== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:36 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve worked on tape articles in Wikipedia and they are for the most= part pretty good. If u find any errors or omissions I hope u will update >=20 > If you are willing and able to share I=E2=80=99d like to see yr results >=20 > Good luck >=20 > Tom I can=E2=80=99t actually share the project I=E2=80=99m working on. Overall W= ikipedia has been an excellent resource for this, even for a couple 8mm forma= ts I was unaware of. One thing that strikes me as odd is that DLT III XT media is apparently from = 1995, while DLT IV media is from 1994?!? I=E2=80=99m not sure about that, an= d I was sure DLT IV wasn=E2=80=99t that old, but it might be. It=E2=80=99s a= lso possible that there are some problems with the DLT page on Wikipedia, sin= ce the age of the drives is given, not the media. The one that=E2=80=99s really hurt my brain is DC 600A, DC 1000, and DC 2000.= Using https://www.qic.org/html/qicstan.html and other info at https://www.q= ic.org/ I=E2=80=99m fairly confused. As best as I can tell: DC 600A =3D 1983 DC 1000 =3D 1994 DC 2000 =3D 1991 The problem I have is that with what I=E2=80=99m working on, I have indicatio= ns of DC 1000 being used in 1985. Zane --===============8732345827967599114==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Mar 10 16:14:42 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:14:38 -0600 Message-ID: <7b3af539-d318-71fb-32ce-8824f39c162e@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <0a0a1cb4-26f2-2bd2-0b5b-eec2f75957b9@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0958073636013627639==" --===============0958073636013627639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/9/23 22:14, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust > altogether. > Yup, my year-2000 pick and place machine had a 3.5" floppy drive, but I had no confidence that any old disks would be workable, and I had no other machines with drives for that.  So, I got one of those floppy emulators that takes a USB thumb drive and emulates a bunch of 1.44 MB floppies.  It worked great until I figured out how to get the network running on that machine.  (It runs Win 95 and needs it because user programs access hardware directly. Jon --===============0958073636013627639==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 16:44:52 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:44:36 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5337901197842754135==" --===============5337901197842754135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 8:06=E2=80=AFAM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:36 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I=E2=80=99ve worked on tape articles in Wikipedia and they are for the mo= st part > pretty good. If u find any errors or omissions I hope u will update > > > > If you are willing and able to share I=E2=80=99d like to see yr results > > > > Good luck > > > > Tom > > I can=E2=80=99t actually share the project I=E2=80=99m working on. Overall= Wikipedia has > been an excellent resource for this, even for a couple 8mm formats I was > unaware of. > > One thing that strikes me as odd is that DLT III XT media is apparently > from 1995, while DLT IV media is from 1994?!? I=E2=80=99m not sure about t= hat, and > I was sure DLT IV wasn=E2=80=99t that old, but it might be. It=E2=80=99s a= lso possible > that there are some problems with the DLT page on Wikipedia, since the age > of the drives is given, not the media. > > The one that=E2=80=99s really hurt my brain is DC 600A, DC 1000, and DC 200= 0. > Using https://www.qic.org/html/qicstan.html and other info at > https://www.qic.org/ I=E2=80=99m fairly confused. > > As best as I can tell: > DC 600A =3D 1983 > DC 1000 =3D 1994 > DC 2000 =3D 1991 > > The problem I have is that with what I=E2=80=99m working on, I have indicat= ions of > DC 1000 being used in 1985. > > Zane > A good resource for data on issues like this is the scans of old computer magazines or catalogs in either Google Books or the Internet Archive. Sellam --===============5337901197842754135==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Fri Mar 10 16:54:38 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:54:23 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2797615746258102183==" --===============2797615746258102183== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 10, 2023, at 8:44 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > A good resource for data on issues like this is the scans of old computer > magazines or catalogs in either Google Books or the Internet Archive. >=20 > Sellam Good idea, just need to get my google-fu working right. :-) I=E2=80=99ve also had to use a Law Magazine, and City Council transcripts in = this project, to put the timeline together. Zane --===============2797615746258102183==-- From rescue@hawkmountain.net Fri Mar 10 17:01:07 2023 From: rescue To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:52:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1383956612454249481==" --===============1383956612454249481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If properly care for and stored, I'd be willing to bet that the 5.25" floppies will be working after the flash replacements suffer bit rot and data loss from charge depletion .... though I might not be around to see that be a big problem :-) Don't toss your 5.25" floppies though :-).... I'll take 'em :-) .... (though I probably shouldn't :-) ). No 3.5" HD though.... I have enough of those to last a lifetime.... if they last :-) -- Curt On 2023-03-09 19:53, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on > something as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let > 5.25 floppies go > > I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to > images. > > Cz > > On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: >>https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ >> >>Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, >> noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to >> handle things for 5 more years.  After that, he thinks the company >> will not transfer to anyone. >> >>Interesting thoughts there. >> >>Jim >> >>-- >>Jim Brain >>brain(a)jbrain.com >>www.jbrain.com >> --===============1383956612454249481==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 17:26:54 2023 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:26:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6ECC0318-29D3-4CFE-A595-72ED70697644@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1278992197701115780==" --===============1278992197701115780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mainframe - Minicomputer = RAS and order magnitude better I/O On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:42 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mar 10, 2023, at 10:05 AM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 03:51:44PM -0600, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" > >> minicomputer. > > > > I've always considered a fully decked out minicomputer to be a fully > decked > > out minicomputer. :-) > > > >> What do you guys think? Or is a mainframe one of those giants so > large, > >> you walk inside its CPU? > > > > Mainframes used to be that large. But these days it's hard to tell by > size. > > Similarly, supercomputers tend to be physically small, because it can't be > really fast if it's big -- speed of light considerations. That's why > supercomputer design has a major packaging and cooling element to it. Both > the CDC 6600 (1964) and the Cray 1 show this very clearly: a great deal of > effort went into making them unusually small for the amount of stuff inside. > > You can't really get inside a 6600. You can get inside a Cray 1, just > barely. > > paul > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============1278992197701115780==-- From rescue@hawkmountain.net Fri Mar 10 17:29:40 2023 From: rescue To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] bryanipad.shop site.... Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:21:24 -0500 Message-ID: <58bf4cfcde4733821901be08199355cf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1398942740166093985==" --===============1398942740166093985== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently rejoined the list.... saw someone mention that site.... way too good to be true.... and with a bit of poking around .... looks like most if not all are scraped right from eBay. One item has the eBay price on the bryanipad.shop site crossed out and the lower price added..... I spent too much time on that site before vetting it.... Should have realized the pizza slice logo in the top left was a clear indicator to run away (faster) :-) --===============1398942740166093985==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Mar 10 18:12:34 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:12:19 -0700 Message-ID: <19249d5b-80d0-51b8-8f11-b9077e5e09c1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR15MB4828D1A88639474CD7E8A68DB3B59=40CO1PR15MB?= =?utf-8?q?4828=2Enamprd15=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6593503134887352852==" --===============6593503134887352852== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/9/23 2:24 PM, John Maxwell wrote: > Is there a repository to where I can upload diskette images? As others have indicated, the Internet Archive seems to be an acceptable place. There are some other places that are more subject matter specific. The A.T.C. comes to mind for IBM PS/2 stuff. > What format is in widespread use these days? I have long used a simple `dd` raw image created at the Linux command line. There are a number of tools that are compatible with the same format. > I use DiskImage (Ver5) and Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk (Ver1.17) - > both work well. I seem to recall that DiskImage is a commercial > product and ImageDisk is still available for free. When I inquired about archiving PC disks used in 'DOS / 'Windows (compatible) computers in the past, I learned that `dd` raw images and possibly an archive (e.g. zip) of the files on said disk is usually sufficient. It seems as if you need to start getting more complicated when you start playing outside of 'DOS / 'Windows (compatible) world. > Not sure that IBM would use cheap *anything* in their equipment. I don't know that RIFA was cheap, in any sense of the word. I think of it as a line of components that had a design flaw that likely results in an energetic failure at some point. > A word of warning, the "inertial rotation" procedure was great for > smaller drives, but you may break your arm applying this to an ESDI :-) Yep. I've done the "inertial rotation" a few times in the past. A few of which were full size (read: 3" x 5¼" x 6+" drives), which usually meant setting it up side down on a table (often with something smooth between the table and drive) and using both hands to twist on the motor axis specifically to avoid injuring myself. > Aside from dismantling the drive, not really. Just cross your fingers > and pray. Usually not a problem. I have an ST225 which had been > powered off for two decades and it came up fine in my DEC Rainbow! ACK > It is my belief that these batteries should still be available from > somewhere. If I think of it when I get home, I'll dig out the box > and relay the model number. Provided that the box is still where > I remember. Thank you. As others have mentioned, the batteries are available in some common locations. I don't think it will be too difficult to acquire one. Seeing as how the old battery is still in there I have the make and model. Then there's all the documentation around the web. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============6593503134887352852==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Fri Mar 10 18:18:11 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: bryanipad.shop site.... Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:17:51 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <58bf4cfcde4733821901be08199355cf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6707548887330816107==" --===============6707548887330816107== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for catching the scam here. I saw an Apple Iie for $99 on the site = with a monitor and keyboard that is too good to be true. The site is complete= with fraud and bs.=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 10, 2023, at 9:29 AM, rescue via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Recently rejoined the list.... >=20 > saw someone mention that site.... >=20 > way too good to be true.... and with a bit of poking around .... looks like= most if not all are scraped right from eBay. > One item has the eBay price on the bryanipad.shop site crossed out and the = lower price added..... >=20 > I spent too much time on that site before vetting it.... > Should have realized the pizza slice logo in the top left was a clear indic= ator to run away (faster) :-) >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============6707548887330816107==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Mar 10 18:21:02 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:20:54 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7w356d2jqj.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2553521869890280655==" --===============2553521869890280655== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/10/2023 1:39 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Kind of yes, but recally early computers were often operated in batch mode. > > Minis would typically do one task, or handle a few users. The first mainframe I worked on was single user, single tasking and all jobs were submitted as "batch" as in a batch of cards.  :-) Second Mainframe I worked on supported lots of users but to the user it was still small amount of interactive and the rest batch.  multi-user was done thru VM370 which made it look like we all were the only users on out machine. Third Mainframe I worked on  was primarily interactive with many user during the day and then ran lots of batch jobs at night. The first minis I worked on all supported lots of users and many simultaneous tasks.  Except the VAX when someone decided to run the Ada compiler and the machine ground to a halt so we all logged off and found something else to do. :-) > > Consider that a minicomputer is larger than microcomputer. Is is?  I have had PC's that were larger than some of the Minis I worked on. This whole mess is to complicated to ever sort out and loaded with more opinion than fact.  Probably because in reality all three terms are marketing speak and don't have real, verifiable definitions. bill --===============2553521869890280655==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 18:22:33 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:22:17 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3845115506281853829==" --===============3845115506281853829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A revised TAKE #10 version of the video is here to clean up some aspects (some notes in the Description; still DRAFT and unlisted) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_eaolOAcvmg On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 1:39=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Most important of all, for the video, > your daughter should decide what parameters matter to her! > > > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > Sellam, > > > >> It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition > of > >> "personal computer". > > > > One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on > > how it is originally financed. > > > > If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then > > it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush." > > Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and > > whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to > decide > > what to do with it and who is authorized to use it. > > > > Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd > > hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could > > coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original > context > > on how the system came to exist stands. > > > > Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it > > is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage > > putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily > > mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small > furniture > > or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right. > > > > > > A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not > > just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable > > product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or > > obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it > repeatable, > > if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom > > builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") > but > > (to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but > > the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer > > product). > > > > > > -Steve > --===============3845115506281853829==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Mar 10 18:24:33 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:24:26 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0771281256143958064==" --===============0771281256143958064== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/10/2023 11:52 AM, rescue via cctalk wrote: > > If properly care for and stored, I'd be willing to bet that the 5.25" > floppies will be working after the flash replacements suffer bit rot > and data loss from charge depletion .... though I might not be around > to see that be a big problem :-) I have floppies, 5 1/4" and 8" , that have sat around my basement in cardboard boxes for over 40 year that are all perfectly readable.  I expect to run out of hardware capable of reading them long before they become unreadable. bill --===============0771281256143958064==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Mar 10 18:28:17 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:28:10 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3066151547823964582==" --===============3066151547823964582== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > A revised TAKE #10 version of the video is here to clean up some aspects > (some notes in the Description; still DRAFT and unlisted) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eaolOAcvmg > The speech synthesis basically wrecks it for me, sorry. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============3066151547823964582==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 18:38:22 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:38:12 -0800 Message-ID: <8e27601a-ba27-d56e-1e31-5b9b671d683b@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558090E38BB64D11F6D1CF90EDBA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4815737787858939501==" --===============4815737787858939501== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/10/23 10:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > The first mainframe I worked on was single user, single tasking. S/360 DOS provided for one "background" memory partition and two "foreground" ones. Batch submissions would be background, with some installations using the smaller foreground ones for interactive use. I believe that one of the pioneers in this was IIT with their Chicago-area high school operation. IITRAN using remote TTYs on a 360/40. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IITRAN --Chuck --===============4815737787858939501==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Fri Mar 10 18:39:14 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VAXstation II GPX on ePay Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:41:16 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7062645457897100088==" --===============7062645457897100088== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wouldn=E2=80=99t normally post anything on eBay, but this looks like someth= ing someone should grab. I=E2=80=99ve no clue who the seller is, it=E2=80=99= s in Massachusetts.=20 https://www.ebay.com/itm/295558572706=EF=BF=BC DEC Digital Equipment Corp VaxStation II GPX system with boards & T K70 untes= ted ebay.com It is currently at $300. It could also be converted to a PDP-11 with the rig= ht boards. My PDP-11/73 started life as a MicroVAX II, and the BA123 is a gr= eat chassis. Of course it=E2=80=99s big and heavy. Zane --===============7062645457897100088==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Fri Mar 10 18:39:18 2023 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:25:13 -0500 Message-ID: <68E14293-0749-40B5-BA7C-6B6546CEB16C@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7989485843698431275==" --===============7989485843698431275== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe. I've seen a lot of floppy rot on some of these rx50s. Black stuff tran= sfers to the head then the head damages other floppies. Result is a mess and = I have to check heads on all new disks. Kind of like the tk50 tapes On March 10, 2023 11:52:29 AM EST, rescue via cctalk wrote: > >If properly care for and stored, I'd be willing to bet that the 5.25" floppi= es will be working after the flash replacements suffer bit rot and data loss = from charge depletion .... though I might not be around to see that be a big = problem :-) > >Don't toss your 5.25" floppies though :-).... I'll take 'em :-) .... (though= I probably shouldn't :-) ). > >No 3.5" HD though.... I have enough of those to last a lifetime.... if they = last :-) > >-- Curt > >On 2023-03-09 19:53, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on >> something as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let >> 5.25 floppies go >>=20 >> I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images. >>=20 >> Cz >>=20 >> On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk >> wrote: >>> https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ >>>=20 >>> Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, not= ing that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle th= ings for 5 more years.=C2=A0 After that, he thinks the company will not trans= fer to anyone. >>>=20 >>> Interesting thoughts there. >>>=20 >>> Jim >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Jim Brain >>> brain(a)jbrain.com >>> www.jbrain.com >>>=20 > --===============7989485843698431275==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 18:46:48 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:46:38 -0800 Message-ID: <0ecc9836-c302-fe6d-ab4b-3176a336179f@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5600366729202927676==" --===============5600366729202927676== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/10/23 06:14, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Hub size looks small on the 1/2" for later style tapes. 2" tape? I wonde= r if that was linear? Had to have impressive motors. >=20 > Early on the hub specs tended to vary. For example, the EL-X1 10-track 1/2= inch tape uses 1/2 inch instrumentation type reels (same as professional aud= io reels) which have a bigger hub than the later standard 1/2 inch tapes, wit= h 3 notches. As witnessed by some ijits rolling a 10.5" reel with 1/2" Ampex 456 audio tape down a road on a hill here a couple of weeks ago. It apparently took them two tries to fully unload the 2500' reel. It took me 3 days to collect and discard all of the tape, since nobody else wanted to. Still have the reel--and yes, the hub is smaller than the computer variety reel. --Chuck --===============5600366729202927676==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 18:58:52 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:58:43 -0800 Message-ID: <418299f3-4ad9-c64e-fdf6-99a447618054@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <68E14293-0749-40B5-BA7C-6B6546CEB16C@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8316909607642673008==" --===============8316909607642673008== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/10/23 09:25, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > Maybe. I've seen a lot of floppy rot on some of these rx50s. Black stuff tr= ansfers to the head then the head damages other floppies. Result is a mess an= d I have to check heads on all new disks. >=20 > Kind of like the tk50 tapes Cyclomethicone works a treat for recovering data from these shedding-like-an-angora-cat media. --Chuck --===============8316909607642673008==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Mar 10 19:00:32 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:00:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8e27601a-ba27-d56e-1e31-5b9b671d683b@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2584523456660283995==" --===============2584523456660283995== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 10, 2023, at 1:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 3/10/23 10:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> The first mainframe I worked on was single user, single tasking. >=20 > S/360 DOS provided for one "background" memory partition and two > "foreground" ones. Batch submissions would be background, with some > installations using the smaller foreground ones for interactive use. You mean DOS/360 as opposed to OS/360? I don't know that one. But OS/360 ca= me in three flavors: PCP, MFS, and MVS. PCP was strictly single user with un= it record I/O direct from/to the devices (no spooling). If you had enough me= mory you could run the multi-tasking OS variants, MFS or MVS. On the 360 mod= el 44 we used in college we didn't have enough memory so we were stuck with P= CP. It was interesting to realize IBM stuck people with the rough analog of RT-11= on a 128 kB machine -- twice the memory size that on a PDP-11 would support = a 16 user timesharing system. Apart from the lack of concurrency and no spooling, PCP also didn't have time= rs. We ran a lot of WATFIV (successor of WATFOR, a fast Fortran compiler for= educational use), but that would run a whole stack of programs as a single O= S job, using the timer to limit individual program. PCP wouldn't support tha= t so a stuck student program would force the canceling of the whole job, then= finding where in the stack of cards to resume and reload. Ugh. =20 I figured out how to hook to the interrupt vector of the "interrupt" button o= n the operator console panel (using a simple security defect in ECXP appendag= es), then tied that to the timer expiration in WATFIV. With that, the operat= or could kill a stuck student program with a single button push and WATFIV wo= uld go on to the next. =20 paul --===============2584523456660283995==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Fri Mar 10 19:47:33 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:47:17 -0800 Message-ID: <935F0EB9-CA2C-42D9-97AA-366515D49564@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8745162475089073145==" --===============8745162475089073145== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 9, 2023, at 1:51 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Not to open a huge can of worms.... but... >=20 > I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out" > minicomputer. >=20 > A minicomputer has a core CPU and memory (or racks of memory), then is > "decked out" with data storage (racks of wall-sized tape decks), printers, > pick-your-typewriter input (or two, or three), and maybe cabinets for > serial IO or modem of some sort. >=20 > So, sometimes I say mainframe when I really mean minicomputer (generally > because mainframe just sounds cooler than "mini-computer" -- that is, > mainframe clearly conveys the notion of "some big ass computer" whereas > minicomputer just needs more clarification). >=20 >=20 > What do you guys think? Or is a mainframe one of those giants so large, > you walk inside its CPU? >=20 > Or, is it like this... >=20 > computer (a whole building, generally at least two story to support ac > ducting and raised floor maintenance -- are these exclusively mainframes?) >=20 > minicomputer (a single floor or room of a building or possibly a full > top of a desk - and, these are NOT mainframes?) >=20 > microcomputer (half a deck top or smaller, memory and accessories mostly > self contained - doesn't necessarily have to have a microprocessor, but > typically does) >=20 > nanocomputer (modern MCU ? like Raspbery Pi) >=20 >=20 > Also - on "personal computer", it's generally implied "digital electronic > computers" so we don't have to dwell too much on rocks and beads as > computers. Glad we didn't call them "coordinated electron pumpers" :) >=20 >=20 >=20 > -Steve Oh, this is a definite can of worms. Looking back to the 80=E2=80=99s and early 90=E2=80=99s, when this was a litt= le more cut and dried. Computer - Any Computer, no matter the class Microcomputer - Desktop or Laptop, single user Minicomputer - Multi-User, either interactive and/or batch Mainframe - It=E2=80=99s all about the I/O!!! That includes being Multi-User= , typically both interactive and batch. These days a Mainframe itself might = take up a lot less space, but things like disk and tape are likely to still t= ake up a fair amount of space. Supercomputer - Number Cruncher Zane --===============8745162475089073145==-- From amp1ron@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 20:02:32 2023 From: Ron Pool To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAXstation II GPX on ePay Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:02:26 -0500 Message-ID: <016b01d9538b$3d0900a0$b71b01e0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4652792003811239503==" --===============4652792003811239503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the next couple of months I'll be making a trip to within a half hour driv= e of there. I've already contacted the seller to see if they could store that= VAXStation II for up to a couple of months so that I could pick it up on my = drive there. It's a 350 mile trip from where I live, but it would go great w= ith the MicroVAX II (without graphics) in a BA23 chassis that I picked up lat= e last year from about 15 miles away from this VAXStation II. I'd really lik= e to have a nice BA123 chassis system. It looks like that one should clean u= p pretty well. -- Ron Pool -----Original Message----- From: Zane Healy via cctalk =20 Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 11:41 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Zane Healy Subject: [cctalk] VAXstation II GPX on ePay I wouldn=E2=80=99t normally post anything on eBay, but this looks like someth= ing someone should grab. I=E2=80=99ve no clue who the seller is, it=E2=80=99= s in Massachusetts.=20 https://www.ebay.com/itm/295558572706=EF=BF=BC DEC Digital Equipment Corp VaxStation II GPX system with boards & T K70 untes= ted ebay.com It is currently at $300. It could also be converted to a PDP-11 with the rig= ht boards. My PDP-11/73 started life as a MicroVAX II, and the BA123 is a gr= eat chassis. Of course it=E2=80=99s big and heavy. Zane --===============4652792003811239503==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Mar 10 20:45:32 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:45:26 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19249d5b-80d0-51b8-8f11-b9077e5e09c1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7466671120109092971==" --===============7466671120109092971== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A word of warning, the "inertial rotation" procedure was great for > smaller drives, but you may break your arm applying this to an ESDI > :-) Not necessarily. Not all ESDI drives are physically large. In one generic PC, I used an ESDI drive, that I bought used, with a WD -7 controller. It was a 3.5" half-height 200MB drive. (my first ESDI, my first 3.5" HDD, and my first HDD over 100MB (I was using a lot of ST4096's in other machines)) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7466671120109092971==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Mar 10 20:47:12 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:46:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3947316a-20dd-ac4e-1ef1-ca813dcc0582@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0622571355172327172==" --===============0622571355172327172== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/8/23 9:18 PM, Grant Taylor wrote: > I acquired an IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) today and am looking for > advice on what I should do to check it out before, during, and after > applying power for the first time. After many comments here and elsewhere indicating that nothing should smoke, I went ahead and powered the system on. No smoke! But no beep nor video output nor keyboard LED activity either. (From known working monitor and keyboard.) It did sound like both drives spun up without a problem. I suspect that I'm going to need to take the thing fully apart and clean it and re-assemble it. I may need to end up acquiring / building the parallel port diagnostic light (LED) adapter to see if I'm getting /anything/ out of the system plainer or if it is truly only power to peripherals. Thank you all for the comments. If there is interest, I'll share pictures later. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============0622571355172327172==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 20:51:00 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:50:44 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <418299f3-4ad9-c64e-fdf6-99a447618054@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1728236927090293680==" --===============1728236927090293680== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 10:58 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/10/23 09:25, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Maybe. I've seen a lot of floppy rot on some of these rx50s. Black stuff > transfers to the head then the head damages other floppies. Result is a > mess and I have to check heads on all new disks. > > > > Kind of like the tk50 tapes > > Cyclomethicone works a treat for recovering data from these > shedding-like-an-angora-cat media. > > --Chuck > Please explain, Chuck. Sellam --===============1728236927090293680==-- From glg@grebus.com Fri Mar 10 20:51:10 2023 From: Gary Grebus To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:45:00 -0500 Message-ID: <72c8648a-0545-ba28-0689-79449a604f3f@grebus.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1845001880150307944==" --===============1845001880150307944== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/10/23 12:26, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: > Mainframe - Minicomputer = RAS and order magnitude better I/O That I think is the best distinction from the minicomputer era. Even within the same system architecture (e.g. VAX's) there were machines that were solidly mini's and those that tended toward mainframes. Implementation features like redundancy, data path retry, ECC in more places, separate maintenance processors, many I/O buses, and more memory bandwidth distinguished machines that aspired to be "big iron". And of course it all came with a corresponding "big price tag". --===============1845001880150307944==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 20:52:56 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:52:40 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558090E38BB64D11F6D1CF90EDBA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4113764566357367116==" --===============4113764566357367116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 10:21 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > This whole mess is to complicated to ever sort out and loaded with more > opinion than fact. Probably because in reality all three terms are > marketing speak and don't have real, verifiable definitions. > > bill > I declare you the winner here, Bill. Sellam --===============4113764566357367116==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 20:54:00 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:53:43 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0424298400769669032==" --===============0424298400769669032== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's helping arrange content and tempo, so it's been good for that (and why it is still a "draft"). We'll try to get it read (but no sound studio, so then you end up with dog barks, lawn mowers, and airplanes in the background haha). I don't think I can do attachments here, but could post the "script" instead. On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:28 PM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > A revised TAKE #10 version of the video is here to clean up some aspects > > (some notes in the Description; still DRAFT and unlisted) > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eaolOAcvmg > > > > The speech synthesis basically wrecks it for me, sorry. > > g. > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > --===============0424298400769669032==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 20:57:45 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:57:30 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0005405436179882623==" --===============0005405436179882623== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:47 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/8/23 9:18 PM, Grant Taylor wrote: > > I acquired an IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) today and am looking for > > advice on what I should do to check it out before, during, and after > > applying power for the first time. > > After many comments here and elsewhere indicating that nothing should > smoke, I went ahead and powered the system on. > > No smoke! > > But no beep nor video output nor keyboard LED activity either. (From > known working monitor and keyboard.) > > It did sound like both drives spun up without a problem. > > I suspect that I'm going to need to take the thing fully apart and clean > it and re-assemble it. > > I may need to end up acquiring / building the parallel port diagnostic > light (LED) adapter to see if I'm getting /anything/ out of the system > plainer or if it is truly only power to peripherals. > > Thank you all for the comments. If there is interest, I'll share > pictures later. > > -- > Grant. . . . > Don't underestimate the troubleshooting utility of re-seating every chip that is socketed. Sellam --===============0005405436179882623==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 21:12:19 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:12:09 -0800 Message-ID: <19fae09d-3a4a-d17c-b274-ebb98ca55749@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6965662794821247166==" --===============6965662794821247166== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/10/23 12:50, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Please explain, Chuck. Sure, bake the disks (I'm sure you know how to do this), then just before reading, coat the surface with a thin coat of cyclomethicone (the stuff has almost no surface tension, so a couple of drops works). It lubricates the surface temporarily; long enough to get a good read. Eventually, it evaporates, leaving you with the original surface. I've used it successfully on those wretched Wabash 5.25" floppies. I use the stuff on tapes as well. --Chuck --===============6965662794821247166==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Mar 10 21:22:59 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:22:43 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19fae09d-3a4a-d17c-b274-ebb98ca55749@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7570785306032567292==" --===============7570785306032567292== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 1:12=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/10/23 12:50, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > > Please explain, Chuck. > > Sure, bake the disks (I'm sure you know how to do this), then just > before reading, coat the surface with a thin coat of cyclomethicone (the > stuff has almost no surface tension, so a couple of drops works). It > lubricates the surface temporarily; long enough to get a good read. > Eventually, it evaporates, leaving you with the original surface. > > I've used it successfully on those wretched Wabash 5.25" floppies. > > I use the stuff on tapes as well. Just when you think you've heard of everything. How long have you been keeping this knowledge from us? https://www.amazon.com/Mystic-Moments-RMCYCL100-Cyclomethicone-Liquid/dp/B00I= 5HBBGW $15 for 125mL. Sounds like that would be good for hundreds of disks. Sellam > > --===============7570785306032567292==-- From Kevin@RawFedDogs.net Fri Mar 10 21:26:45 2023 From: Kevin Monceaux To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:26:35 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7791494850682590722==" --===============7791494850682590722== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 02:00:19PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > You mean DOS/360 as opposed to OS/360? I don't know that one. DOS/360 evolved into DOS/VS, DOS/VSE, and through a few other versions eventually evolving into today's z/VSE. > But OS/360 came in three flavors: PCP, MFS, and MVS. With OS/360 the latter two would have been MFT and MVT. MVS came later. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. --===============7791494850682590722==-- From m.zahorik@sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 10 21:32:42 2023 From: mike To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:32:33 -0600 Message-ID: <1A835DFF824A4510BF1854779EA89D49@Dumbbunny64> In-Reply-To: <19fae09d-3a4a-d17c-b274-ebb98ca55749@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9174623279491185901==" --===============9174623279491185901== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck can you give a few details about 'baking' disks? Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 03:12 PM To: Sellam Abraham via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die On 3/10/23 12:50, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Please explain, Chuck. Sure, bake the disks (I'm sure you know how to do this), then just before reading, coat the surface with a thin coat of cyclomethicone (the stuff has almost no surface tension, so a couple of drops works). It lubricates the surface temporarily; long enough to get a good read. Eventually, it evaporates, leaving you with the original surface. I've used it successfully on those wretched Wabash 5.25" floppies. I use the stuff on tapes as well. --Chuck --===============9174623279491185901==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Fri Mar 10 21:36:05 2023 From: paul.kimpel@digm.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 21:36:00 +0000 Message-ID: <167848416082.1516385.6891516215479678964@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6447787551240616345==" --===============6447787551240616345== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, the G-15 was definitely a digital computer, but I'm not aware that it ha= d any "add-on analog element," at least not any that was a standard Bendix pr= oduct. There was a differential analyzer, the DA-1, that attached to the G-15= and used some of its drum memory lines for storage, but it was a digital dif= ferential analyzer, not an analog one. There was a connector on the back of the G-15 cabinet to which a user could a= ttach data collection equipment, but this, too, was digital -- the external s= ignals were made available in a one-word "Input Register" the G-15 could enab= le, disable, and read, but any A-to-D had to be done by the external interfac= e to the system. As to the G-15 being a personal computer, I think it was pretty much in the s= ame league as the LGP-30 in that respect. They had similar electrical and flo= or-space requirements, and their costs were not all the different, either. It= was definitely a single-user system, and my impression is that the G-15 was = typically operated by the people programming it. Its design was not conducive= to closed-shop operations. There was at least one person who used a G-15 as their personal computer -- H= arry Huskey, the designer. Apparently the deal he made with Bendix to do the = design included him receiving a G-15 for his personal use. --===============6447787551240616345==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Fri Mar 10 21:57:43 2023 From: paul.kimpel@digm.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 21:57:39 +0000 Message-ID: <167848545981.1516385.3466865839467182731@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2489691034987089271==" --===============2489691034987089271== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The term "mainframe" comes from telephone switching technology -- the electro= mechanical kind from before the time of electronic telephone switches. Its as= sociation with computers is from the earliest days of the commercial computer= business and precedes the minicomputer era by quite a bit. As I understand it, in an electromechanical telephone switch, the "main frame= " (note the space) was the rack where the central control and switching compo= nents for the switch were located. In a computer system, it usually applies t= o the cabinet where the CPU and memory reside, perhaps including the I/O cont= rollers, as opposed to the peripheral components. The term "mainframe" is still used today for enterprise-class systems (to the= horror of their marketing and advertising minions), even though the mainfram= e components may be wholly contained a 1U module for a 19-inch rack. --===============2489691034987089271==-- From cclist@sytse.net Fri Mar 10 22:32:20 2023 From: Sytse van Slooten To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 23:27:09 +0100 Message-ID: <9E9320A3-278B-48F8-8002-BDB9717591F0@sytse.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558090E38BB64D11F6D1CF90EDBA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8609957037069946084==" --===============8609957037069946084== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The first mainframe I worked on was single user, single tasking and all job= s were >=20 > submitted as "batch" as in a batch of cards. :-) >=20 > Second Mainframe I worked on supported lots of users but to the user it was >=20 > still small amount of interactive and the rest batch. multi-user was done = thru >=20 > VM370 which made it look like we all were the only users on out machine. >=20 > Third Mainframe I worked on was primarily interactive with many user during >=20 > the day and then ran lots of batch jobs at night. The last mainframe I worked on was a 9020/9X2, some time in '95 or '96 maybe = - the biggest S390 IBM made, and for a while, I could use it as my personal c= omputer (in fact, a memo was sent across the organisation I worked in that on= e of the issues with the regulatory bodies had been caused by 'some persons r= egarding the production mainframes as their personal toy') although that happ= ened already before the 9020 generation Not that the 9020/9X2 was all play though. One of my duties was to narrate to= urs of the data center, and I usually built up the narrative to showing the n= ice and big dials of the water cooling. There were three - inlet temp, outlet= temp, and flow, IIRC. But I hadn't been there on the weekend the 9X2 was del= ivered, and I kind of assumed that the dials would be behind the same door. T= ook me 3 tries to find them... But another thing I remember from that tour is that I opened the door on one = of the CPU frames, but not as usual on the side where the water cooling was v= isible - the TCM array of 4x4, with that many red and blue hoses. On the othe= r side you had the power supplies, also in a 4x4 array - and probably more im= pressive if you read the labels. '3.3V 500A', that kind of thing - not sure I= remember correctly, it might've been 300A. But whichever, 16 of those, and t= hen times 10 for all 10 CPUs.=20 That made the distinction between mini and mainframe quite clear to me. Sure = there's a very broad middle ground, but nothing I ever saw in the mini space = was remotely on the same playing field as this stuff. -- my n=3D1, cheers all! Sytse --===============8609957037069946084==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Mar 10 22:36:49 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:36:34 -0700 Message-ID: <38e4f100-15db-d744-5027-03800c7d89ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1816317260678916775==" --===============1816317260678916775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/10/23 1:57 PM, Sellam Abraham wrote: > Don't underestimate the troubleshooting utility of re-seating every > chip that is socketed. Fair enough. Though I think there are very few socketed chips: Link - IBM PS/2 Model 80 "Type 1" (386DX-16) Planer - https://ardent-tool.com/8580/Planar_T1_Photo_Front.jpg I think this will become a slow / long term project. The system is going to get the battery removed, and then packed away for a move. Once moved and I have a workbench set up I'll get things back out and work on it some more. I'll probably do some reading ~> research, including A.T.C.. I'll likely try to acquire the parallel port test harness. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1816317260678916775==-- From kevin_anderson_dbq@yahoo.com Fri Mar 10 23:05:04 2023 From: Kevin Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 23:04:58 +0000 Message-ID: <680924789.2332535.1678489498117@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <680924789.2332535.1678489498117.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4190296018660484484==" --===============4190296018660484484== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I always thought of the distinctions this way (from my basis of exposure from= late 1970s through the 1980s) and from a higher educational setting primaril= y: Mainframe =3D repairs required multiple technicians, some possibly there full= -time; regular operator(s) present, and a locked door located between you and= the machine; entire specialized room with raised flooring, extra-high ampera= ge specialized power sources and wiring, and significant air conditioning Minicomputer =3D Vendor still provides a technician (just one) for repairs, w= ho drives in out in a station wagon; only a part-time operator only; an user = can be located in the same room; 240-volt wiring, but not particularly outlan= dish Microcomputer =3D Computer can sit on a desk or in a "normal" room; broken co= mputer taken by user to someplace to be repaired or self-repaired; typically = one user, and only 120-volt household or office power needed. Supercomputer =3D a really fast and specialized version (primarily focusing o= n high-speed mathematical computations) of a mainframe. Kevin Anderson --===============4190296018660484484==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Mar 10 23:11:50 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:11:40 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <680924789.2332535.1678489498117@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6974537396128556480==" --===============6974537396128556480== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: > I always thought of the distinctions this way (from my basis of exposure=20 > from late 1970s through the 1980s) and from a higher educational setting=20 > primarily: > Mainframe =3D repairs required multiple technicians, some possibly there fu= ll-time; regular operator(s) present, and a locked door located between you a= nd the machine; entire specialized room with raised flooring, extra-high ampe= rage specialized power sources and wiring, and significant air conditioning > Minicomputer =3D Vendor still provides a technician (just one) for repairs,= who drives in out in a station wagon; only a part-time operator only; an use= r can be located in the same room; 240-volt wiring, but not particularly outl= andish > Microcomputer =3D Computer can sit on a desk or in a "normal" room; broken = computer taken by user to someplace to be repaired or self-repaired; typicall= y one user, and only 120-volt household or office power needed. > Supercomputer =3D a really fast and specialized version (primarily focusing= on high-speed mathematical computations) of a mainframe. extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer Which machines needed 3-phase? --===============6974537396128556480==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Mar 10 23:20:30 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 18:20:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4269345194341205233==" --===============4269345194341205233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/10/2023 6:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: >> I always thought of the distinctions this way (from my basis of >> exposure from late 1970s through the 1980s) and from a higher >> educational setting primarily: >> Mainframe = repairs required multiple technicians, some possibly >> there full-time; regular operator(s) present, and a locked door >> located between you and the machine; entire specialized room with >> raised flooring, extra-high amperage specialized power sources and >> wiring, and significant air conditioning >> Minicomputer = Vendor still provides a technician (just one) for >> repairs, who drives in out in a station wagon; only a part-time >> operator only; an user can be located in the same room; 240-volt >> wiring, but not particularly outlandish >> Microcomputer = Computer can sit on a desk or in a "normal" room; >> broken computer taken by user to someplace to be repaired or >> self-repaired; typically one user, and only 120-volt household or >> office power needed. >> Supercomputer = a really fast and specialized version (primarily >> focusing on high-speed mathematical computations) of a mainframe. > > extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer > > Which machines needed 3-phase? Some PDP-11's although you can sometimes break them up and just use lots of 110/220 outlets.  And then you get to watch the lights in the house dim when you fire them up. Some Vaxen as well and some of those you cannot break up.  At least I never figured out how.  But the University electricians always did a good job of meeting my power needs. I would be willing to bet that the 1401, 360's and 4300 systems all required a bit more than you get out of a standard 100AMP 220 volt electrical feed. And Univac 1100's didn't run on commercial power at all but required a motor generator between  them and commercial power. bill --===============4269345194341205233==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 23:26:59 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:26:49 -0800 Message-ID: <2b47f432-e530-9f41-f33e-3d092766efba@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7665005077613191305==" --===============7665005077613191305== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/10/23 13:22, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Just when you think you've heard of everything. How long have you been > keeping this knowledge from us? >=20 > https://www.amazon.com/Mystic-Moments-RMCYCL100-Cyclomethicone-Liquid/dp/B0= 0I5HBBGW >=20 > $15 for 125mL. Sounds like that would be good for hundreds of disks. I've mentioned it multiple times on VCF and it's also mentioned on Herb Johnson's retrocomputing web site. I can't risk clobbering a client's disk or tape, particularly not one sent by an institution's achivist of whom I'd like to remain on the good side. D5/Cyclo has been a lifesaver. The stuff is slick but inert; it's used extensively in cosmetics and lotions. It's also somewhat volatile, so it evaporates after awhile. Hair detangler is a very notable use of it that even finds use in equine circles. I suspect that you could drink the stuff and not suffer anything but a bad stomach ache, but I'm not about to prove it. Another bottle of stuff that I keep around for softening rubber pinch rollers and capstans is methyl salicylate/oil of wintergreen. Smells to high heaven like arthritis cream. Mixed with a mild solvent (e.g. xylene) it softens hard rubber up quite nicely, but your shop smells like a gym locker room for a time. And of course, heptane for cleaning--dissolves glue, cleans tape heads, etc. without harming plastics or staining paper. FWIW, Chuck --===============7665005077613191305==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 23:30:21 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:30:10 -0800 Message-ID: <9f422f81-7dbe-2290-5ec4-71b11d129eb2@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1A835DFF824A4510BF1854779EA89D49@Dumbbunny64> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1894582776291715651==" --===============1894582776291715651== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/10/23 13:32, mike via cctalk wrote: > Chuck can you give a few details about 'baking' disks? I can tell you how I do it--an "oven" held at 58C +/- 0.5C with good air circulation. Mine is custom built, where the heat source is a 75W incandescent lamp, low-speed fan and PID controller. I've heard of some folks adapting food dehydrators for the purpose. I generally put stuff in for a day, then let things cool for a couple of hours. --Chuck --===============1894582776291715651==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 10 23:32:51 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:32:42 -0800 Message-ID: <1815d5be-ca29-a93b-b733-758396a43ff0@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6358886549241749915==" --===============6358886549241749915== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/10/23 15:11, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer > > Which machines needed 3-phase? Extra points for requiring an MG set furnishing 400Hz 3-phase. --Chuck --===============6358886549241749915==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Mar 10 23:58:05 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:57:59 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1815d5be-ca29-a93b-b733-758396a43ff0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6234218663902530186==" --===============6234218663902530186== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OB_3-phase anecdote: Shortly before I started teaching at the college (so I got all of the details secondhand), . . . They had a PDP (I don't even know what model) that they used for the prograamming classes. But, they had constant problems with the [after-market?] disk drive, so it was down a lot. Not good when students need it for their homework. One semester, it was down almost all semester. So, they decided to replace it with microcomputers. They sold it to a local school district, and bought a room full of 5150s. Plus an unreliable network ("can support up to 128 simultaaneous users"; "oh, we've never connected more than 8 at a time", and a single user could bring the network to its knees). The school district was thrilled to get the PDP. Then they had PG&E set up the power for it. Some PG&E technicians did not know the difference between "Delta" and "Wye"/"Y" three phase! Seriously dsmaged the machine. PG&E bought a replacement machine for the school district, on the condition that all involved go along with a false story that it had been a lighning strike! I started teaching at the college. Fortran, "Micorcomputer Disk Operating Systems", and later BASIC, PC Assembly language, C, and even COBOL. We had a room full of 5150s, and used the IBM Microsoft Fortran and COBOL. There are some problems with the first version of the IBM/Microsoft PC Fortran, but it was OK for teaching beginning programming. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6234218663902530186==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Mar 11 00:30:40 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:30:29 -0800 Message-ID: <1443bd93-a319-8fdf-cff1-b18dd067b1ca@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7810215269753074337==" --===============7810215269753074337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/10/23 15:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > OB_3-phase anecdote: > PG&E bought a replacement machine for the school district, on the > condition that all involved go along with a false story that it had been > a lighning strike! Doesn't seem to be an uncommon practice. I remember an electrician hooking up a 120V60Hz water cooler to the 250VDC supply used for welding. Sent the unit back for replacement because of "manufacturing defects". --Chuck --===============7810215269753074337==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Mar 11 00:38:08 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:38:03 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1443bd93-a319-8fdf-cff1-b18dd067b1ca@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5407081720461073199==" --===============5407081720461073199== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> OB_3-phase anecdote: >> PG&E bought a replacement machine for the school district, on the >> condition that all involved go along with a false story that it had been >> a lighning strike! On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Doesn't seem to be an uncommon practice. I remember an electrician > hooking up a 120V60Hz water cooler to the 250VDC supply used for > welding. Sent the unit back for replacement because of "manufacturing > defects". It wasn't even my first experience of it. When I built my auto repair garage (building built for me) in 1975, got three phase for the air compressor. Until we did our own testing, there was over 200 volts to the wall outlets. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5407081720461073199==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Mar 11 01:01:11 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:01:03 -0600 Message-ID: <6ab35ebf-a679-0768-01f9-1e886fa9acfa@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8626435034395589848==" --===============8626435034395589848== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/10/23 13:00, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mar 10, 2023, at 1:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 3/10/23 10:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >>> The first mainframe I worked on was single user, single tasking. >> S/360 DOS provided for one "background" memory partition and two >> "foreground" ones. Batch submissions would be background, with some >> installations using the smaller foreground ones for interactive use. > You mean DOS/360 as opposed to OS/360? I don't know that one. But OS/360 = came in three flavors: PCP, MFS, and MVS. MFT was Multiprogramming with a Fixed number of Tasks, MVT=20 was Multiprogramming with a Variable number of Tasks.=C2=A0 MFT=20 had "fixed" partitions, although the operator could "drain"=20 partitions and then rearrange them manually.=C2=A0 MVT=20 automatically rearranged partitions by looking at the memory=20 requirements of the next-up programs in the queue.=C2=A0 Well,=20 that all sounds great, except that allowing the user to ask=20 for completely random partition sizes ended up filling=20 memory with little chunks of odd-size partitions that left=20 memory fragmented.=C2=A0 So, the fix was to only allow partition=20 sizes in some standard quanta like 50 K.=C2=A0 If you asked for=20 37 K you would run in a 50K partition and be charged for it.=20 MVS was a 370 OS. Jon --===============8626435034395589848==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Mar 11 01:08:10 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:07:53 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5682292967458351137==" --===============5682292967458351137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 3:58=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > OB_3-phase anecdote: > That internet convention (OB) is so old now it's archaic, and vintage in and of itself. Amazing. > So, they decided to replace it with microcomputers. They sold it to a > local school district, and bought a room full of 5150s. Plus an > unreliable network ("can support up to 128 simultaaneous users"; "oh, > we've never connected more than 8 at a time", and a single user could > bring the network to its knees). > Typical. > The school district was thrilled to get the PDP. Then they had PG&E set > up the power for it. Some PG&E technicians did not know the difference > between "Delta" and "Wye"/"Y" three phase! Seriously dsmaged the > machine. > Typical. > PG&E bought a replacement machine for the school district, on the > condition that all involved go along with a false story that it had been a > lighning strike! > Ha! PG&E has always been involved in shady shit, but I never suspected insurance fraud. Sellam --===============5682292967458351137==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Mar 11 01:09:29 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:09:15 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1815d5be-ca29-a93b-b733-758396a43ff0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3483660891837050936==" --===============3483660891837050936== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/10/2023 6:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/10/23 15:11, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > >> extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer >> >> Which machines needed 3-phase? > Extra points for requiring an MG set furnishing 400Hz 3-phase. > Univac 1100 IBM 360/40 mounted in two 65 foot trailers and known as The Army Standard System bill --===============3483660891837050936==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Mar 11 01:10:42 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:10:21 -0600 Message-ID: <5e2114e0-df01-1712-e7fe-eb1239277d08@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <38e4f100-15db-d744-5027-03800c7d89ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6162379573712883146==" --===============6162379573712883146== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/10/23 16:36, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 3/10/23 1:57 PM, Sellam Abraham wrote: >> Don't underestimate the troubleshooting utility of >> re-seating every chip that is socketed. > > Fair enough. Certainly check the Power OK signal from the power supply, if that isn't working the whole system will be frozen. Jon --===============6162379573712883146==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Mar 11 01:20:31 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:20:27 -0600 Message-ID: <59b2f7f0-d3a5-e7fb-545c-d15870978263@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580A560A03FD36029334055EDBA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3020531392057324808==" --===============3020531392057324808== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/10/23 17:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/10/2023 6:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: >>> I always thought of the distinctions this way (from my >>> basis of exposure from late 1970s through the 1980s) and >>> from a higher educational setting primarily: >>> Mainframe = repairs required multiple technicians, some >>> possibly there full-time; regular operator(s) present, >>> and a locked door located between you and the machine; >>> entire specialized room with raised flooring, extra-high >>> amperage specialized power sources and wiring, and >>> significant air conditioning >>> Minicomputer = Vendor still provides a technician (just >>> one) for repairs, who drives in out in a station wagon; >>> only a part-time operator only; an user can be located >>> in the same room; 240-volt wiring, but not particularly >>> outlandish >>> Microcomputer = Computer can sit on a desk or in a >>> "normal" room; broken computer taken by user to >>> someplace to be repaired or self-repaired; typically one >>> user, and only 120-volt household or office power needed. >>> Supercomputer = a really fast and specialized version >>> (primarily focusing on high-speed mathematical >>> computations) of a mainframe. >> >> extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole >> transformer >> >> Which machines needed 3-phase? > > > Some PDP-11's although you can sometimes break them up and > just use > > lots of 110/220 outlets.  And then you get to watch the > lights in the house > > dim when you fire them up. > > > Some Vaxen as well and some of those you cannot break up.  > At least I never > > figured out how. The VAX 11/780 was wired for 208 V 3-phase, but all the internal power supplies ran line-line, so were single-phase. Also, the cooling blowers had 208V single-phase motors. The DECSystem 2020 (KL10B processor) ran directly off 3-phase power with a HUGE transformer in the bottom of the cabinet. > I would be willing to bet that the 1401, 360's and 4300 > systems all required a bit > > more than you get out of a standard 100AMP 220 volt > electrical feed. > > And Univac 1100's didn't run on commercial power at all > but required a motor > > generator between  them and commercial power. The IBM 360/50 and /65 used a "Converter Inverter" that converted 208 V 3-phase utility power to single-phase 120 V 2500 Hz sine wave power. All the logic supplies ran off that 2500-Hz power, and were astonishingly small. At least the mid-range 370's had built-in motor generators that converted 208V 3-phase power to 120/200 V 415 Hz 3-phase power. The internal supplies ran off that, vastly reducing the size of transformers and capacitors. Jon --===============3020531392057324808==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Mar 11 01:21:01 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:20:55 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6903161577137975451==" --===============6903161577137975451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> OB_3-phase anecdote: On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > That internet convention (OB) is so old now it's archaic, and vintage in > and of itself. Amazing. You rang? (cf. Maynard G. Krebs) >> The school district was thrilled to get the PDP. Then they had PG&E set >> up the power for it. Some PG&E technicians did not know the difference >> between "Delta" and "Wye"/"Y" three phase! Seriously dsmaged the >> machine. > Typical. >> PG&E bought a replacement machine for the school district, on the >> condition that all involved go along with a false story that it had been a >> lighning strike! > Ha! PG&E has always been involved in shady shit, but I never suspected > insurance fraud. Not necessarily insurance fraud, although certainly very possibly. An alternative would be that the school district would have filed a lawsuit, and PG&E would have been forced to do it. By voluntarily doing it, they avoid the lawsuit, avoid losing face, and setting MORE precedents for losing more lawsuits, and get some good tax dedustions. PG&E's lawyers know how to put a good spin on what they would have ended up having to do, anyway. -- Archaic and vintage Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6903161577137975451==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Mar 11 01:42:23 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:42:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1815d5be-ca29-a93b-b733-758396a43ff0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3777213939335823461==" --===============3777213939335823461== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 10, 2023, at 6:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 3/10/23 15:11, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer >>=20 >> Which machines needed 3-phase? >=20 > Extra points for requiring an MG set furnishing 400Hz 3-phase. >=20 > --Chuck CDC 6000 series is the one I know of. But they'd also use either 1 or 3 phas= e regular 50/60 Hz power. For example, the console display uses 3 phase 400 = Hz for its power supplies (nice for low ripple) and 60 Hz 110 V for fans. Th= e CPU cabinet takes 400 Hz power to run its power supplies but 60 Hz power fo= r the compressors that cool the Freon that cools the logic. As for 3 phase, PDP-11 CPUs did not, but some of the disk drives (like RP06) = do since they use 3 phase induction motors to drive the spindle. paul --===============3777213939335823461==-- From gavin@learn.bio Sat Mar 11 02:13:26 2023 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:13:12 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6ab35ebf-a679-0768-01f9-1e886fa9acfa@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8578773009027046764==" --===============8578773009027046764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:01 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 3/10/23 13:00, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > You mean DOS/360 as opposed to OS/360? > MFT was Multiprogramming with a Fixed number of Tasks, MVT > was Multiprogramming with a Variable number of Tasks. And all the OS/360 variants were so late that they introduced three other operating systems as a stopgap to allow IBM to actually ship systems that were usable by customers. First came Basic Operating System/360 (BOS/360), which was pretty much cards in and out (plus printer), Tape Operating System/360 (TOS/360) which was what it sounded like, and then a bit later in June 1966, Disk Operating System/360 (DOS/360). DOS was fully expected to just fade away once OS/360 was completed as it was assumed everyone would quickly upgrade, but in typical customer fashion it Simply Would Not Die and even lives on today a z/VSE. DOS was for some time the most popular operating system in the world. On the original question, yeah sure, there were/are "frames" holding things, but also IBM's word mainframe really just means "Big-ass computers made by IBM" and they like to get testy when someone calls something from another manufacturer a mainframe. So this is the definition assumed by anyone who has drunk enough of the IBM Coolaid (and the related myths about robustness and security). I'm a software person so I'm much more interested in the functionality and applications of a system when comparing them. So for example an HP 3000 "minicomputer" in retrospect was comparable to a mainframe because you did pretty much all the same things you would do on an IBM MVS system and many of them in very similar ways (the MPE OS and even some of the CPU hardware design like the two-bit Condition Code and Channel / Selector Channel setup were very clearly inspired by IBM). If you were a huge bank or Sears, etc. then you bought a mainframe because that was really your only option, but if you were a little bank in Guatemala,a medium sized wholesale distributor, consumer electronics, maternity clothing, or drugstore retail chain, etc. then you bought something like a 3000 and did all the same stuff (COBOL, block mode online terminals, batch, etc.) just way cheaper and more easily. Of course all these things were about the performance of a $1 microcontroller of today, so that seems like an acceptable categorization too :) G. --===============8578773009027046764==-- From shumaker@att.net Sat Mar 11 03:00:51 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:00:41 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4857722153164985911==" --===============4857722153164985911== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable that's still happening today.=C2=A0 Up here in the north woods, trees in=20 lines is a weekly thing and the PGE supers will tell you directly to=20 "make sure you get EVERYTHING that we broke" but not to worry about=20 receipts. steve On 3/10/23 5:07 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 3:58=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> OB_3-phase anecdote: >> > That internet convention (OB) is so old now it's archaic, and vintage in > and of itself. Amazing. > > >> So, they decided to replace it with microcomputers. They sold it to a >> local school district, and bought a room full of 5150s. Plus an >> unreliable network ("can support up to 128 simultaaneous users"; "oh, >> we've never connected more than 8 at a time", and a single user could >> bring the network to its knees). >> > Typical. > > >> The school district was thrilled to get the PDP. Then they had PG&E set >> up the power for it. Some PG&E technicians did not know the difference >> between "Delta" and "Wye"/"Y" three phase! Seriously dsmaged the >> machine. >> > Typical. > > >> PG&E bought a replacement machine for the school district, on the >> condition that all involved go along with a false story that it had been a >> lighning strike! >> > Ha! PG&E has always been involved in shady shit, but I never suspected > insurance fraud. > > Sellam --===============4857722153164985911==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Mar 11 03:36:26 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:36:16 -0800 Message-ID: <2cccb83c-8474-b1ef-a27d-f032244ec7c0@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8703162404750211146==" --===============8703162404750211146== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/10/23 17:42, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > CDC 6000 series is the one I know of. But they'd also use either 1 or 3 ph= ase regular 50/60 Hz power. For example, the console display uses 3 phase 40= 0 Hz for its power supplies (nice for low ripple) and 60 Hz 110 V for fans. = The CPU cabinet takes 400 Hz power to run its power supplies but 60 Hz power = for the compressors that cool the Freon that cools the logic. "Power for the basic computer consists of one 250 kva, 400 Hz motor-generator set. The motor-generator set has the capability of providing power to the CPU, MCS, I/O and the MCU. The optional memory requires the use of an additional 80 kva motor-generator set." Cooling? "Cooling for the basic computer consist of two 30-ton water-cooled condensing units. These units cool only the CPU, MCS and I/O sections. The MCU is air-cooled. With the optional memory, the basic computer requires an additional 10-ton condensing unit." --Chuck --===============8703162404750211146==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Mar 11 04:39:59 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 22:39:43 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7201228299133238797==" --===============7201228299133238797== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone here have a physical copy of 80 Microcomputing (TRS-80 themed) issue from August 1980? There is a better quality scan of a page I'm trying to get. Thanks, Steve --===============7201228299133238797==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Sat Mar 11 04:44:42 2023 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 04:44:37 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2806662492281428925==" --===============2806662492281428925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, There is a pretty good copy on archive.org https://archive.org/details/80-microcomputing-magazine-1980-08 Regards, Mark -----Original Message----- From: Steve Lewis via cctalk =20 Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Steve Lewis Subject: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Anyone here have a physical copy of 80 Microcomputing (TRS-80 themed) issue f= rom August 1980? There is a better quality scan of a page I'm trying to get. Thanks, Steve --===============2806662492281428925==-- From mhuffstutter@outlook.com Sat Mar 11 04:52:15 2023 From: Mark Huffstutter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FW: 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 04:52:07 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB626727F17C624C543A13F967C9BB9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?6267=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7949661603135389538==" --===============7949661603135389538== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, I missed the physical copy part, You might have already found this one on= line. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Mark Huffstutter=20 Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Steve, There is a pretty good copy on archive.org https://archive.org/details/80-microcomputing-magazine-1980-08 Regards, Mark -----Original Message----- From: Steve Lewis via cctalk =20 Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Steve Lewis Subject: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Anyone here have a physical copy of 80 Microcomputing (TRS-80 themed) issue f= rom August 1980? There is a better quality scan of a page I'm trying to get. Thanks, Steve --===============7949661603135389538==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sat Mar 11 04:55:27 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 22:55:21 -0600 Message-ID: <04416e85-4750-accf-57ad-1d94cdfa1739@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4996441242033426518==" --===============4996441242033426518== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/10/23 20:13, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > And all the OS/360 variants were so late that they introduced three > other operating systems as a stopgap to allow IBM to actually ship > systems that were usable by customers. First came Basic Operating > System/360 (BOS/360), which was pretty much cards in and out (plus > printer), The 1620's I resurrected at USL in Lafayette, La. were card in and out.  There was also a printer.  It had an assembler deck and a Fortran compiler. I suspect that the 360 would have slipped in there except for the fun getting arithmetic to match on the machines. Had 2 cpus,  one card reader / punch and a printer for the 1620. thanks Jim --===============4996441242033426518==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Mar 11 05:01:16 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 00:01:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB6267AC75D47746BB08951D2AC9BB9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?6267=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8498506663372216267==" --===============8498506663372216267== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not sure what you're asking for, can you clarify? Bill On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 11:52 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Ah, I missed the physical copy part, You might have already found this one > online. > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Huffstutter > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:45 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan > > Steve, > There is a pretty good copy on archive.org > > https://archive.org/details/80-microcomputing-magazine-1980-08 > > Regards, > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:40 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Steve Lewis > Subject: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan > > Anyone here have a physical copy of 80 Microcomputing (TRS-80 themed) > issue from August 1980? There is a better quality scan of a page I'm > trying to get. > > Thanks, > Steve > --===============8498506663372216267==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sat Mar 11 05:01:24 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 23:01:17 -0600 Message-ID: <13e5a8e2-4acb-a009-39ce-5e0e07dd8a98@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7410617507803795322==" --===============7410617507803795322== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/10/23 19:07, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> The school district was thrilled to get the PDP. Then they had PG&E set >> up the power for it. Some PG&E technicians did not know the difference >> between "Delta" and "Wye"/"Y" three phase! Seriously dsmaged the >> machine. >> This goes a bit sideways here.  I've dealt with a lot of power people, shady company or not, and the equipment they have isn't for amateurs that don't know the type of service or whatever.  Just doesn't fly. And as far as any dealings I know about, all of them put the order of the service responsibility on the customer.  The power company will put in what you order.  They could put in the wrong service, but again referring to the previous paragraph, there are many more issues with the equipment and people involved for someone to have not caught it.  I'd put the blame on the company at 5% as far as the story. As to the business issues, can't say.  Again, getting far into grassy knowl territory for someone not to talk, and there are a lot of PG&E people who would dearly love to drop that company into boiling oil as there are customers. No way to verify on my end, just observing the state of the story at this point from what I read here. (Not Sellam's story, clipped from his level of the tread). thanks Jim --===============7410617507803795322==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Mar 11 05:36:43 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 21:36:21 -0800 Message-ID: <52355e94-819b-02e2-d69b-3330ba5b15b0@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <04416e85-4750-accf-57ad-1d94cdfa1739@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1212927537695036053==" --===============1212927537695036053== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/10/23 20:55, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > The 1620's I resurrected at USL in Lafayette, La. were card in and out.  > There was also a printer.  It had an assembler deck and a Fortran compiler. But no 1311s? Shame. --Chuck --===============1212927537695036053==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Mar 11 05:41:19 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 21:40:59 -0800 Message-ID: <5614bb13-e01b-c9b5-4e1f-c001d31c4b38@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4385610498607556356==" --===============4385610498607556356== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/10/23 17:42, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > CDC 6000 series is the one I know of. But they'd also use either 1 or 3 ph= ase regular 50/60 Hz power. For example, the console display uses 3 phase 40= 0 Hz for its power supplies (nice for low ripple) and 60 Hz 110 V for fans. = The CPU cabinet takes 400 Hz power to run its power supplies but 60 Hz power = for the compressors that cool the Freon that cools the logic. I believe some of the tape drives used 208V 60Hz single-phase. I'm pretty sure the big disk drives (e.g. 808) had 3-phase spindle motors powered from the 240V feed. I'd have to check, however. 400Hz for the logic. I don't recall what the Bryant 4000 drives used, but I"m sure that bitsavers can tell you. --Chuck --===============4385610498607556356==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Mar 11 05:49:00 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 23:48:45 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4846535976063887702==" --===============4846535976063887702== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Was looking for a higher resolution scan of page 10 of August 1980 issue of 80 Microcomputing magazine. The one online has some "square markings" -- and maybe that's just the way it is, from the original photographs and how they got published in that issue. But finding a physical copy might clarify. But really after any image of a 1977-1978 inside-the-factory shot of Tandy, Commodore, or Apple (mostly on the "motherboard" assembly itself). I did find one from 1982 for Commodore (German factory), and an Apple one from 1984 (Macintosh assembly), but was hoping for a pre-1980 shot. -Steve On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:01 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm not sure what you're asking for, can you clarify? > Bill > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 11:52 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Ah, I missed the physical copy part, You might have already found this > one > > online. > > > > Mark > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Huffstutter > > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:45 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Subject: RE: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan > > > > Steve, > > There is a pretty good copy on archive.org > > > > https://archive.org/details/80-microcomputing-magazine-1980-08 > > > > Regards, > > Mark > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:40 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Steve Lewis > > Subject: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan > > > > Anyone here have a physical copy of 80 Microcomputing (TRS-80 themed) > > issue from August 1980? There is a better quality scan of a page I'm > > trying to get. > > > > Thanks, > > Steve > > > --===============4846535976063887702==-- From sytse@sytse.net Sat Mar 11 09:08:13 2023 From: Sytse van Slooten To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 00:26:16 +0100 Message-ID: <9C4D38C2-88EF-4C33-BE71-882D69FAA634@sytse.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2685995263761219934==" --===============2685995263761219934== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 > On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: >> I always thought of the distinctions this way (from my basis of exposure f= rom late 1970s through the 1980s) and from a higher educational setting prima= rily: >> Mainframe =3D repairs required multiple technicians, some possibly there f= ull-time; regular operator(s) present, and a locked door located between you = and the machine; entire specialized room with raised flooring, extra-high amp= erage specialized power sources and wiring, and significant air conditioning >> Minicomputer =3D Vendor still provides a technician (just one) for repairs= , who drives in out in a station wagon; only a part-time operator only; an us= er can be located in the same room; 240-volt wiring, but not particularly out= landish >> Microcomputer =3D Computer can sit on a desk or in a "normal" room; broken= computer taken by user to someplace to be repaired or self-repaired; typical= ly one user, and only 120-volt household or office power needed. >> Supercomputer =3D a really fast and specialized version (primarily focusin= g on high-speed mathematical computations) of a mainframe. >=20 > extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer >=20 > Which machines needed 3-phase? None that I am aware of - even the very power hungry 9021 'mainframes' I ment= ioned earlier could be powered from a single phase, if you wanted to. The pow= er company might have expressed a view, but that's a different subject. 3 pha= se is relevant to circular motion, not to the amount of power you need - alth= ough lots of electrical equipment tends to come in 3 phase versions, especial= ly if the amount of power goes up. And yes, my memory has been refreshed - it was 9021, not 9020 I meant in the = other post. --===============2685995263761219934==-- From nospam212-cctalk@yahoo.com Sat Mar 11 16:34:06 2023 From: David Williams To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 10:33:57 -0600 Message-ID: <31f987bc-ebaf-b184-c752-eeb8617c90da@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1647222047571539537==" --===============1647222047571539537== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I believe I have that issue, at least it is on my list of issues in the collection. Traveling at the moment but if you don't get it elsewhere I'll check when I am home tomorrow. David On 3/10/2023 11:48 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Was looking for a higher resolution scan of page 10 of August 1980 issue of > 80 Microcomputing magazine. > > The one online has some "square markings" -- and maybe that's just the way > it is, from the original photographs and how they got published in that > issue. But finding a physical copy might clarify. > > But really after any image of a 1977-1978 inside-the-factory shot of Tandy, > Commodore, or Apple (mostly on the "motherboard" assembly itself). I did > find one from 1982 for Commodore (German factory), and an Apple one from > 1984 (Macintosh assembly), but was hoping for a pre-1980 shot. > > > -Steve > > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:01 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I'm not sure what you're asking for, can you clarify? >> Bill >> >> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 11:52 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Ah, I missed the physical copy part, You might have already found this >> one >>> online. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Mark Huffstutter >>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:45 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>> Subject: RE: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan >>> >>> Steve, >>> There is a pretty good copy on archive.org >>> >>> https://archive.org/details/80-microcomputing-magazine-1980-08 >>> >>> Regards, >>> Mark >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Steve Lewis via cctalk >>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:40 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>> Cc: Steve Lewis >>> Subject: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan >>> >>> Anyone here have a physical copy of 80 Microcomputing (TRS-80 themed) >>> issue from August 1980? There is a better quality scan of a page I'm >>> trying to get. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Steve >>> >> --===============1647222047571539537==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Mar 11 16:38:35 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 09:38:20 -0700 Message-ID: <7dea5835-a176-a570-448c-eee3e9c87770@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: <5e2114e0-df01-1712-e7fe-eb1239277d08@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6015210942100732635==" --===============6015210942100732635== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/10/23 6:10 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Certainly check the Power OK signal from the power supply, if that > isn't working the whole system will be frozen. When I next spend some time on the system I will check the voltages from the power supply. Will I be able to get an accurate measurement if I remove the tails from the motherboard and drives? Or do I need to have some sort of load on the power supply? E.g. a sacrificial hard drive that I don't care about. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============6015210942100732635==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Mar 11 18:41:08 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 13:40:56 -0500 Message-ID: <055D7C3D-1055-4292-9EDA-956782A30756@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <9C4D38C2-88EF-4C33-BE71-882D69FAA634@sytse.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3853852836624915295==" --===============3853852836624915295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 10, 2023, at 6:26 PM, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>=20 >> Which machines needed 3-phase? >=20 > None that I am aware of - even the very power hungry 9021 'mainframes' I me= ntioned earlier could be powered from a single phase, if you wanted to. The p= ower company might have expressed a view, but that's a different subject. 3 p= hase is relevant to circular motion, not to the amount of power you need - al= though lots of electrical equipment tends to come in 3 phase versions, especi= ally if the amount of power goes up. True. I remember that the house where I grew up in Holland had 3 phase servi= ce because we were one of the (then unusual) households to have an electric c= ookstove. It was fed off 380 volt 3 phase power. But apart from circular motion (i.e., feeding motors) there is a second reaso= n to use three phase power: reduced ripple. Full wave rectification of n Hz = mains power gives you a 2n Hz ripple; full wave rectification of 3-phase n Hz= mains produces a 6 Hz ripple, and tha amplitude is a lot less as well. So t= he filters are much smaller, which is a non-trivial matter if you need to fil= ter several hundred amps. That of course assumes your power supplies are act= ually fed off the three phase mains, rather than being individual single phas= e supplies spread over the phases. The former was certainly the case with th= e CDC 6600, you can see it clearly in the schematics. paul --===============3853852836624915295==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Mar 11 18:47:27 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 13:47:21 -0500 Message-ID: <0AF22784-DAB1-4DD7-A447-74B8456D884C@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1346495685757522721==" --===============1346495685757522721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 10, 2023, at 9:13 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:01=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: >> On 3/10/23 13:00, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >>> You mean DOS/360 as opposed to OS/360? >=20 >> MFT was Multiprogramming with a Fixed number of Tasks, MVT >> was Multiprogramming with a Variable number of Tasks. >=20 > And all the OS/360 variants were so late that they introduced three > other operating systems as a stopgap to allow IBM to actually ship > systems that were usable by customers. First came Basic Operating > System/360 (BOS/360), which was pretty much cards in and out (plus > printer),=20 I thought it was called BCP (Basic Control Program)? I just saw it mentioned= once or twice, never used it though I did come across an executable file on = cards -- the 360/44 "Emulator" (for the missing SS instructions). paul --===============1346495685757522721==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Mar 11 18:48:26 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 13:48:18 -0500 Message-ID: <5A17882D-8CC4-4F3F-8417-CE66073A038C@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <52355e94-819b-02e2-d69b-3330ba5b15b0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3487875947565060389==" --===============3487875947565060389== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 11, 2023, at 12:36 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 3/10/23 20:55, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> The 1620's I resurrected at USL in Lafayette, La. were card in and out.=20 >> There was also a printer. It had an assembler deck and a Fortran compiler. >=20 > But no 1311s? Shame. Speaking of 1620 peripherals, I know there were paper tape reader/punch optio= ns for it. Has anyone ever encountered those in the wild? paul --===============3487875947565060389==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Mar 11 18:57:20 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 13:57:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <31f987bc-ebaf-b184-c752-eeb8617c90da@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0253124839406470738==" --===============0253124839406470738== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I checked, don't have it. b On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 11:34 AM David Williams via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I believe I have that issue, at least it is on my list of issues in the > collection. Traveling at the moment but if you don't get it elsewhere > I'll check when I am home tomorrow. > > David > > On 3/10/2023 11:48 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > Was looking for a higher resolution scan of page 10 of August 1980 issue > of > > 80 Microcomputing magazine. > > > > The one online has some "square markings" -- and maybe that's just the > way > > it is, from the original photographs and how they got published in that > > issue. But finding a physical copy might clarify. > > > > But really after any image of a 1977-1978 inside-the-factory shot of > Tandy, > > Commodore, or Apple (mostly on the "motherboard" assembly itself). I > did > > find one from 1982 for Commodore (German factory), and an Apple one from > > 1984 (Macintosh assembly), but was hoping for a pre-1980 shot. > > > > > > -Steve > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:01 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> I'm not sure what you're asking for, can you clarify? > >> Bill > >> > >> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 11:52 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Ah, I missed the physical copy part, You might have already found this > >> one > >>> online. > >>> > >>> Mark > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Mark Huffstutter > >>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:45 PM > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >>> Subject: RE: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan > >>> > >>> Steve, > >>> There is a pretty good copy on archive.org > >>> > >>> https://archive.org/details/80-microcomputing-magazine-1980-08 > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Mark > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > >>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:40 PM > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >>> Cc: Steve Lewis > >>> Subject: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan > >>> > >>> Anyone here have a physical copy of 80 Microcomputing (TRS-80 themed) > >>> issue from August 1980? There is a better quality scan of a page I'm > >>> trying to get. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Steve > >>> > >> > --===============0253124839406470738==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Sat Mar 11 19:52:14 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 13:51:59 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9f422f81-7dbe-2290-5ec4-71b11d129eb2@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6912345526319776895==" --===============6912345526319776895== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe a dumb question but would an easy bake oven be a good device or are they not good at holding temp control? I thought I had heard of a few folks using those for reflow jobs, etc. Especially since there's not risk of using an oven you might want out of later. The more I think about it though, the risk of a Fisher Price toy on someone's important data sounds sort of stupid. But might be a cheap home solution for less important data. On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 5:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/10/23 13:32, mike via cctalk wrote: > > Chuck can you give a few details about 'baking' disks? > > I can tell you how I do it--an "oven" held at 58C +/- 0.5C with good air > circulation. Mine is custom built, where the heat source is a 75W > incandescent lamp, low-speed fan and PID controller. I've heard of some > folks adapting food dehydrators for the purpose. > > I generally put stuff in for a day, then let things cool for a couple of > hours. > --===============6912345526319776895==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Mar 11 20:18:47 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 20:18:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4306915351222834913==" --===============4306915351222834913== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ve heard of people using electric toaster ovens for reflow work. Th= ere=E2=80=99s a few YouTube videos about it. Should work for baking tapes too= . I think there was quite a discussion about it on cctalk a few years ago. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 11, 2023, at 11:52, John Herron via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFMaybe a dumb question but would an easy bake oven be a good device= or are > they not good at holding temp control? >=20 > I thought I had heard of a few folks using those for reflow jobs, etc. > Especially since there's not risk of using an oven you might want out of > later. >=20 > The more I think about it though, the risk of a Fisher Price toy on > someone's important data sounds sort of stupid. But might be a cheap home > solution for less important data. >=20 >=20 >> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 5:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >>> On 3/10/23 13:32, mike via cctalk wrote: >>> Chuck can you give a few details about 'baking' disks? >>=20 >> I can tell you how I do it--an "oven" held at 58C +/- 0.5C with good air >> circulation. Mine is custom built, where the heat source is a 75W >> incandescent lamp, low-speed fan and PID controller. I've heard of some >> folks adapting food dehydrators for the purpose. >>=20 >> I generally put stuff in for a day, then let things cool for a couple of >> hours. >>=20 --===============4306915351222834913==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Mar 11 20:26:13 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 12:26:02 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2999159321449339388==" --===============2999159321449339388== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/11/23 11:51, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Maybe a dumb question but would an easy bake oven be a good device or are > they not good at holding temp control? No--you really need good temperature control for two reasons (at least in my experience): 1. Magnetic media on a mylar substrate doesn't have much thermal inertia, unlike a PCB. So when the temperature goes way above set point, it can do damage. Recall that you're working with plastics. 2. You're walking a fine line on temperature. Much higher, and the medium could be damaged, but too low and baking does little good. Check with the tapeheads people--the audio tape fraternity does a lot of this sort of thing. --Chuck --===============2999159321449339388==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Mar 11 20:38:38 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 12:38:23 -0800 Message-ID: <074f5137-d16d-6035-092a-d1fa0014b1aa@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <5A17882D-8CC4-4F3F-8417-CE66073A038C@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5537220361671817353==" --===============5537220361671817353== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/11/23 10:48, Paul Koning wrote: > Speaking of 1620 peripherals, I know there were paper tape reader/punch opt= ions for it. Has anyone ever encountered those in the wild? I've seen a 1621 paper tape unit, but never used it. That always seemed to be the wrong answer to the problem of input, particularly for programming work. I believe that it preceded the 1622 card reader/punch, so you're most likely to see it with CADETs. Apparently, there's one in the collection at Wigton in the UK. --Chuck --===============5537220361671817353==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Mar 11 21:28:02 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:27:48 -0500 Message-ID: <9302FFEF-E5A6-47DD-92C0-204C7BC525CB@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21819CDEF7CC448199E78FA9E4BB9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8575761586260471934==" --===============8575761586260471934== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 11, 2023, at 3:18 PM, Wayne S via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve heard of people using electric toaster ovens for reflow work. = There=E2=80=99s a few YouTube videos about it. Should work for baking tapes t= oo. I think there was quite a discussion about it on cctalk a few years ago. Yes, for example you can get an oven controller from Dbit (John Wilson, autho= r of Ersatz-11) to do that. I remember an article in a German ham radio maga= zine that discusses the subject, and points out that it's trickier than you m= ight think. The reason is that toaster ovens are basically IR heaters, so th= e temperature of the object depends on how much it absorbs. In the article t= here was a suggestion to attach the thermistor used by the controller to a se= cond PCB similar to the one being reflowed, so it would sense a temperature c= lose to that of the real board. paul --===============8575761586260471934==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Mar 11 21:29:11 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:28:59 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <074f5137-d16d-6035-092a-d1fa0014b1aa@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1740685545325807669==" --===============1740685545325807669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 11, 2023, at 3:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >=20 > On 3/11/23 10:48, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 >> Speaking of 1620 peripherals, I know there were paper tape reader/punch op= tions for it. Has anyone ever encountered those in the wild? >=20 > I've seen a 1621 paper tape unit, but never used it. That always seemed > to be the wrong answer to the problem of input, particularly for > programming work. =20 Dijkstra said as much when he evaluated the 1620 for possible use by the TU E= indhoven -- a big problem is that it was unable to handle arbitrary 8-bit dat= a. paul --===============1740685545325807669==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Sat Mar 11 22:30:56 2023 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 22:30:47 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <055D7C3D-1055-4292-9EDA-956782A30756@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2200615367650031778==" --===============2200615367650031778== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes I can concur with this. I operate some Navy transmitters (at home) and wh= ile on the vessel they used 3 phase power supplies which were physically smal= ler and produced less ripple. At home, I use a 1 phase power supply just fine= . These were 1KW output (4KW input) transmitters so not a lot of power but be= nefitted from low ripple. 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning via cctalk =20 But apart from circular motion (i.e., feeding motors) there is a second reaso= n to use three phase power: reduced ripple. Full wave rectification of n Hz = mains power gives you a 2n Hz ripple; full wave rectification of 3-phase n Hz= mains produces a 6 Hz ripple, and tha amplitude is a lot less as well. So t= he filters are much smaller, which is a non-trivial matter if you need to fil= ter several hundred amps. That of course assumes your power supplies are act= ually fed off the three phase mains, rather than being individual single phas= e supplies spread over the phases. The former was certainly the case with th= e CDC 6600, you can see it clearly in the schematics. paul --===============2200615367650031778==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Mar 11 22:34:23 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:34:13 -0800 Message-ID: <8b117031-c3ed-77c0-e94c-0fe94cb21f62@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7057815727535668780==" --===============7057815727535668780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/11/23 13:28, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 > Dijkstra said as much when he evaluated the 1620 for possible use by the TU= Eindhoven -- a big problem is that it was unable to handle arbitrary 8-bit d= ata. Oh heck, there's no way to test for a numeric blank. Compare works only for numeric data. The system can't tell the difference between a card punched with 8-4 or 8-4-1, for example. Lots of holes in the architecture. But that doesn't mean you couldn't do useful work with it. --Chuck --===============7057815727535668780==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Mar 11 22:46:04 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:45:54 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBL1PR12MB52691B6576A30D0C14FC15F6B5BB9=40BL1PR12MB?= =?utf-8?q?5269=2Enamprd12=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5339156501175077009==" --===============5339156501175077009== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/11/23 14:30, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Yes I can concur with this. I operate some Navy transmitters (at home) and while on the vessel they used 3 phase power supplies which were physically smaller and produced less ripple. At home, I use a 1 phase power supply just fine. These were 1KW output (4KW input) transmitters so not a lot of power but benefitted from low ripple. A full-wave 3-phase rectifier's output is about 96% DC (4% ripple). --Chuck --===============5339156501175077009==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Mar 12 01:48:20 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 19:48:14 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21819CDEF7CC448199E78FA9E4BB9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4383728693832879091==" --===============4383728693832879091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/11/23 14:18, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > I=E2=80=99ve heard of people using electric toaster ovens for reflow work. = There=E2=80=99s a few YouTube videos about it. Should work for baking tapes t= oo. I think there was quite a discussion about it on cctalk a few years ago. > > I have used a large GE toaster oven to reflow over 2000=20 boards. I got a ramp and soak thermocouple controller (it=20 allow you to program temp points and time intervals between=20 the points) and poke a micro-size thermocouple into a PC=20 board plated through hole.=C2=A0 Thus it controls actual board=20 temperature. Jon --===============4383728693832879091==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Mar 12 03:27:02 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 21:26:45 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <31f987bc-ebaf-b184-c752-eeb8617c90da@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7176190831729941884==" --===============7176190831729941884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Haven't found a physical copy yet (also been probing around on eBay). I'm just looking for a high resolution scan of page 10 of the images in the lower half (of inside "factory"). The ones at archive.org are "grainy" (but it could just be a side effect of the printing in that issue, so maybe there is no real improvement we can obtain). cc here if no other "cloud" option available: contact.steve.usa(a)gmail.com Thanks! Steve On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 10:34 AM David Williams via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I believe I have that issue, at least it is on my list of issues in the > collection. Traveling at the moment but if you don't get it elsewhere > I'll check when I am home tomorrow. > > David > > On 3/10/2023 11:48 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > Was looking for a higher resolution scan of page 10 of August 1980 issue > of > > 80 Microcomputing magazine. > > > > The one online has some "square markings" -- and maybe that's just the > way > > it is, from the original photographs and how they got published in that > > issue. But finding a physical copy might clarify. > > > > But really after any image of a 1977-1978 inside-the-factory shot of > Tandy, > > Commodore, or Apple (mostly on the "motherboard" assembly itself). I > did > > find one from 1982 for Commodore (German factory), and an Apple one from > > 1984 (Macintosh assembly), but was hoping for a pre-1980 shot. > > > > > > -Steve > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:01 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> I'm not sure what you're asking for, can you clarify? > >> Bill > >> > >> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 11:52 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Ah, I missed the physical copy part, You might have already found this > >> one > >>> online. > >>> > >>> Mark > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Mark Huffstutter > >>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:45 PM > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >>> Subject: RE: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan > >>> > >>> Steve, > >>> There is a pretty good copy on archive.org > >>> > >>> https://archive.org/details/80-microcomputing-magazine-1980-08 > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Mark > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > >>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:40 PM > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >>> Cc: Steve Lewis > >>> Subject: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan > >>> > >>> Anyone here have a physical copy of 80 Microcomputing (TRS-80 themed) > >>> issue from August 1980? There is a better quality scan of a page I'm > >>> trying to get. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Steve > >>> > >> > --===============7176190831729941884==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Mar 12 03:36:56 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] delphi, before 1990 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 21:36:41 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9118018204643589107==" --===============9118018204643589107== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey all, was Delphi accessible as a bulletin board before 1990? I'm only finding logos and info about Delphi post-1990. But for early 1980s, what as Delphi? Was it a telnet-sort-of-thing only accessed only from universities? I've searched through early BYTE and PC Mag and just not finding any advertisements about it. -Steve --===============9118018204643589107==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun Mar 12 03:54:44 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 03:54:37 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4010682075093080842==" --===============4010682075093080842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have you tried the worldradiohistory.com site. They have a lot of scanned com= puter mags. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 11, 2023, at 19:27, Steve Lewis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHaven't found a physical copy yet (also been probing around on eBa= y). I'm > just looking for a high resolution scan of page 10 of the images in the > lower half (of inside "factory"). The ones at archive.org are "grainy" > (but it could just be a side effect of the printing in that issue, so maybe > there is no real improvement we can obtain). >=20 > cc here if no other "cloud" option available: > contact.steve.usa(a)gmail.com >=20 > Thanks! > Steve >=20 >=20 >> On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 10:34=E2=80=AFAM David Williams via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> I believe I have that issue, at least it is on my list of issues in the >> collection. Traveling at the moment but if you don't get it elsewhere >> I'll check when I am home tomorrow. >>=20 >> David >>=20 >>> On 3/10/2023 11:48 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >>> Was looking for a higher resolution scan of page 10 of August 1980 issue >> of >>> 80 Microcomputing magazine. >>>=20 >>> The one online has some "square markings" -- and maybe that's just the >> way >>> it is, from the original photographs and how they got published in that >>> issue. But finding a physical copy might clarify. >>>=20 >>> But really after any image of a 1977-1978 inside-the-factory shot of >> Tandy, >>> Commodore, or Apple (mostly on the "motherboard" assembly itself). I >> did >>> find one from 1982 for Commodore (German factory), and an Apple one from >>> 1984 (Macintosh assembly), but was hoping for a pre-1980 shot. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -Steve >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:01=E2=80=AFPM Bill Degnan via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I'm not sure what you're asking for, can you clarify? >>>> Bill >>>>=20 >>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 11:52 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < >>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Ah, I missed the physical copy part, You might have already found this >>>> one >>>>> online. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Mark >>>>>=20 >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Mark Huffstutter >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:45 PM >>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >>>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>>>> Subject: RE: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan >>>>>=20 >>>>> Steve, >>>>> There is a pretty good copy on archive.org >>>>>=20 >>>>> https://archive.org/details/80-microcomputing-magazine-1980-08 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Mark >>>>>=20 >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Steve Lewis via cctalk >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 8:40 PM >>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >>>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>>>> Cc: Steve Lewis >>>>> Subject: [cctalk] 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan >>>>>=20 >>>>> Anyone here have a physical copy of 80 Microcomputing (TRS-80 themed) >>>>> issue from August 1980? There is a better quality scan of a page I'm >>>>> trying to get. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Steve >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 --===============4010682075093080842==-- From jim@deitygraveyard.com Sun Mar 12 03:59:38 2023 From: Jim Carpenter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: delphi, before 1990 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 22:59:07 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6086656221710350757==" --===============6086656221710350757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 10:36 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Hey all, was Delphi accessible as a bulletin board before 1990? Yes. Wikipedia says it was launched in 1981. I know I accessed it in the mid '80s. > But for early 1980s, what as Delphi? Was it a telnet-sort-of-thing only > accessed only from universities? It was a public online service like Compuserve, The Source, GEnie, Bix, etc.. It ran on VAX/VMS. Text only. They had direct dial-ups and access via Tymnet and Telenet. > I've searched through early BYTE and PC Mag and just not finding any > advertisements about it. Check Rainbow magazine for the Color Computer. You'll find ads for it there. Jim --===============6086656221710350757==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Mar 12 04:38:35 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: delphi, before 1990 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 20:38:30 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6135490976423276157==" --===============6135490976423276157== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 11 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Hey all, was Delphi accessible as a bulletin board before 1990? > I'm only finding logos and info about Delphi post-1990. > But for early 1980s, what as Delphi? Was it a telnet-sort-of-thing only > accessed only from universities? > I've searched through early BYTE and PC Mag and just not finding any > advertisements about it. They started in 1981, and expanded in 1983. They apparently still exist. http://forums.delphiforums.com/delphihistory/messages/10/1 Competing with AOL, Prodigy, Netcom, etc. In those days, the internet was not open to the public (guvmint, academia,=20 military, etc.), so, to some extent those "services" were trying to=20 compete with the internet. Also, in your historical research, if you have not already done so, you=20 and your daughter have got to watch "Hyperland". It was a 50 minute long BBC documentary in 1991? (PRE WWW) about the=20 future of the internet. It was written by Douglas Adams and Ted Nelson,=20 and starring Tom Baker. https://archive.org/details/DouglasAdams-Hyperland If you want subtitles/captions, 6 years ago, I created an .SRT (captions=20 file of it! https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4hCJm9ZEADCblVSVlBxdmZyREU/view?usp=3Ddrive= _web (400MB video with subtitles burned in) .SRT file: http://www.xenosoft.com/HyperlandCAPS_En_US_0_77.srt -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6135490976423276157==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Mar 12 07:01:50 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 23:01:38 -0800 Message-ID: <6ea0458e-1cf3-2515-6d96-ed3b72095770@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <8b117031-c3ed-77c0-e94c-0fe94cb21f62@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0374636951683639762==" --===============0374636951683639762== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/11/23 14:34, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/23 13:28, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 >> >> Dijkstra said as much when he evaluated the 1620 for possible use by the T= U Eindhoven -- a big problem is that it was unable to handle arbitrary 8-bit = data. >=20 Perhaps I need to elaborate on my earlier response for those not familiar with the 1620. First of all, the 1620 is a decimal machine, digit addressable with bits CF8421. C is the parity bit and only shows up on the console display--it's not something that a program sees. Second of all, the 1620 has no user-addressable registers--it's all memory-to-memory. Instructions are all 12 digits. Opcode 2 digits, P and Q fields 5 digits each. *Variable word length*, with words being addressed by the low-order digit and with the high-order digit flagged with the F bit. Negative numbers have the F bit set in the lowest order digit. Words may be grouped up into records, addressed by the lowest address of the record and terminated with the record mark (x8x2x). Addition, subtraction and multiplication on the CADET (model 1 1620) is done through tables in low memory, which must be loaded after boot time to get any useful work done. There are two modes for typewriter/printer/card/tape I/O--numeric (each digit represents a character) and alpha (pairs of digits represent characters). There are a a couple of special non-numeric bit combinations--the record mark (x8x2x bits), the numeric blank (x84xx) and the group mark (used for disk I/O) (x842x); any may carry a flag bit. As mentioned, the group mark is used for disk I/O when the contents of a group may contain records. On other I/O devices, the record mark determines the end of a record. There are rules about what can be on odd- or even-address boundaries. for example, an instruction must start on an even address boundary. The numeric blank prints as a space when doing numeric I/O. Otherwise, it cannot be used in math operations, nor can it be generated using them--you read it from an I/O device and move it around. There is no stack,but there is a single register that holds a single return address when a Branch-and-transmit instruction is executed. There is a single instruction that branches to the location held in that register; the register itself is not addressable. You can see that the limit is one call depth using this register--it's most handy when debugging because it can be display on the console lamps. Serious programs usually use the Branch and Transmit Immediate, where the Immediate (Q) field is deposited just ahead of the branch address. The custom is to use this field as a return address for subroutines. The 1620 comes with 20K digits of storage standard, with optional added memory to 40K or 60K digits. The maximum length of a numeric value is 20K digits. Given the variable-length nature of the machine, clearing memory to any value can be done with a single instruction. Hope this provides some background for what irked Dijkgstra. I should note that what I've described describes the Model 1 1620. The model 2 was considerably improved and even had an option for binary manipulation of values. The IBM 1710 was essentially a 1620 with interrupts, added I/O capabilities and a real-time clock and was used for industrial control. --Chuck --===============0374636951683639762==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Mar 12 07:14:04 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: delphi, before 1990 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 01:13:48 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6696337723403626014==" --===============6696337723403626014== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom Baker, the best Doctor of all? I'm in, grabbing popcorn. I recall using GEnie (at least once) and I recall hearing about Delphi. I was trying to find early versions of their logo, such as from early advertisements - but so far can only find "late model" versions. Then I started thinking about "how were they even advertised? having lots of phone numbers in different area codes would have been expensive, maybe they only advertised in a few cities back in those days?" But I don't remember any flyers about it - I think we just knew it from the local Computer Club, word of mouth. (I also remember Intel coming to early computers clubs, and raffling or tossing out a processor after a talk) On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 10:38=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, 11 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > Hey all, was Delphi accessible as a bulletin board before 1990? > > I'm only finding logos and info about Delphi post-1990. > > But for early 1980s, what as Delphi? Was it a telnet-sort-of-thing only > > accessed only from universities? > > I've searched through early BYTE and PC Mag and just not finding any > > advertisements about it. > > They started in 1981, and expanded in 1983. > They apparently still exist. > http://forums.delphiforums.com/delphihistory/messages/10/1 > > Competing with AOL, Prodigy, Netcom, etc. > > In those days, the internet was not open to the public (guvmint, academia, > military, etc.), so, to some extent those "services" were trying to > compete with the internet. > > > > Also, in your historical research, if you have not already done so, you > and your daughter have got to watch "Hyperland". > It was a 50 minute long BBC documentary in 1991? (PRE WWW) about the > future of the internet. It was written by Douglas Adams and Ted Nelson, > and starring Tom Baker. > > https://archive.org/details/DouglasAdams-Hyperland > > If you want subtitles/captions, 6 years ago, I created an .SRT (captions > file of it! > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4hCJm9ZEADCblVSVlBxdmZyREU/view?usp=3Ddri= ve_web > (400MB > > video with subtitles burned in) > .SRT file: > http://www.xenosoft.com/HyperlandCAPS_En_US_0_77.srt > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============6696337723403626014==-- From jim@deitygraveyard.com Sun Mar 12 08:30:23 2023 From: Jim Carpenter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: delphi, before 1990 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 04:29:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7869499646198795847==" --===============7869499646198795847== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 3:14 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Then I started thinking about "how were they even advertised? having lots > of phone numbers in different area codes would have been expensive, maybe > they only advertised in a few cities back in those days?" It would have been very expensive, which is why they had the links to Telenet and Tymnet. Telenet and Tymnet provided the phone numbers and is how most people connected. --===============7869499646198795847==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Mar 12 09:41:21 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] domesticating the computer (take #12) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 04:41:06 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0243226501382123851==" --===============0243226501382123851== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We're going to stick to the original title of "Domesticating the Computer" - since that's more in tune with the intended theme. TAKE #11: (reference, revision listed below) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLHcUbVO_G0 And here's the narration situation. My daughter said she'd try it, and she did :) But here's the problem, she has those painful metal braces. Point in fact, she got them tightened yesterday and in general speaking for very long isn't her favorite thing right now. So she's requested to just stick to being in the Art department (recall, she did the background art and overall arrangement and selection of the systems). But, I still wanted to share this Take#12 to show she is real and is involved in the project :) And also that there were a few visual updates planned. TAKE #12: (daughter narration) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2flzdzM-ZKM Here is a summary of some of the visual updates... 01:11 added the ComputerWorld article referencing Pillsbury Farms and Datapoint, in case there were any doubters about that. [ the article is from '73 and by that time they had been using the system for a couple years - I think the original sales contract is in a museum down in San Antonio still ] (she botched the Odyssey audio - and this is a casual draft, so it's just blanked out) 02:16 added a visual reference to Apollo program (since yes there are some people who didn't catch what that means) 05:03 updates to the "factory" photos (found shot of Tandy's wave soldering machine) [ I still am aware and agree the use of the word "motherboard" here isn't quite right -- but, acceptable anachronism? ] 05:21 (just wanted to point out - some complained I didn't mention the Sphere, which recently a runnable board was revived and demonstrated; can't fit em all, and the Sphere is mentioned at the bottom here as one of the "early competitors") 07:32 looking for more "zip-loc bag" examples (Scott Adams has spoken and confirms he used "baby bottle liners" - it's a small technicality that I may just address visually on screen); I'm hoping Ken and Roberta might have photos of some of their old HiRez adventure in bags, but I suspect that all burned in their house years ago ('91 or so?) (I wanted a small segment to explain why Zork couldn't be made available on cassette tape-- I content that Zork itself motivated the purchase of many early disk drives :) but that'll be for another day ) 07:49 minor updates for VisiCalc presentation (it's so neat that in '79, it had effectively Freeze Panes, split window, and could do Plotting!) Dan confirms that yes, "software patent" (lack of it) was an issue at the time 09:46 adjusted to give "credit" of 86-DOS to Paul Allen and Tim Patterson. 13:50 the census report of 8% of "households of computer" is an important part of the theme (...some bloopers at the end...) I now have two (separate) folks who can maybe help with the narration. If that comes together, then I'll add a note to a review of that in the description or comments of TAKE #11 and TAKE #12. -Steve (voidstar) --===============0243226501382123851==-- From auringer@tds.net Sun Mar 12 15:50:25 2023 From: Jon Auringer To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FW: 80 Micro Aug 1980 page scan Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 11:30:20 -0400 Message-ID: <1917608125.24526314.1678635020157.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218108835ADB6CDD62429195E4B89=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8409402217380635921==" --===============8409402217380635921== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does this help? https://flic.kr/p/2omGxh8 -Jon --===============8409402217380635921==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Sun Mar 12 16:28:15 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 09:27:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0766397961960866835==" --===============0766397961960866835== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. I a= lways wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else happen= s. Any recommendations of what is a must see at the museum and anything else = classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)?=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit --===============0766397961960866835==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Mar 12 16:52:13 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 11:51:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3558332905000897450==" --===============3558332905000897450== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. > I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else happens. Any recommendations > of what is a must see at the museum and anything else classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)? I've only been once a couple years ago. It's an excellent and worthwhile visit. I only had a day as well, and can't note on other nearby "classic computing" places (I think the DigiBarn is a bit further to the south, not sure if open to the public). But just a quick note about food: The cafeteria they had downstairs wasn't open at the time. You might prepare your own snack since as I recall there wasn't much eating options in the immediate area (there is a coffee and sandwich shop across the street, easy walking distance). -Steve --===============3558332905000897450==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sun Mar 12 16:59:32 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 12:59:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6459559353199741400==" --===============6459559353199741400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Digibarn computers have been moved to the SystemSource computer museum in Hunt Valley MD. BIll On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 12:52 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. > > I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else > happens. Any recommendations > > of what is a must see at the museum and anything else classic computing > nearby in one day only (March 15)? > > I've only been once a couple years ago. It's an excellent and worthwhile > visit. I only had a day as well, and can't note on other nearby "classic > computing" places (I think the DigiBarn is a bit further to the south, not > sure if open to the public). But just a quick note about food: The > cafeteria they had downstairs wasn't open at the time. You might prepare > your own snack since as I recall there wasn't much eating options in the > immediate area (there is a coffee and sandwich shop across the street, easy > walking distance). > > -Steve > --===============6459559353199741400==-- From shumaker@att.net Sun Mar 12 18:37:05 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 11:36:55 -0700 Message-ID: <2253cb97-9f6f-fa42-2bb6-bf551daaa66b@att.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8568860077597789713==" --===============8568860077597789713== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI:  DigiBarn is closed for good and all collections were transferred to a museum back east. Steve On 3/12/23 9:51 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >> I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. >> I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else > happens. Any recommendations >> of what is a must see at the museum and anything else classic computing > nearby in one day only (March 15)? > > I've only been once a couple years ago. It's an excellent and worthwhile > visit. I only had a day as well, and can't note on other nearby "classic > computing" places (I think the DigiBarn is a bit further to the south, not > sure if open to the public). But just a quick note about food: The > cafeteria they had downstairs wasn't open at the time. You might prepare > your own snack since as I recall there wasn't much eating options in the > immediate area (there is a coffee and sandwich shop across the street, easy > walking distance). > > -Steve --===============8568860077597789713==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Mar 12 19:24:27 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:24:13 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7669038116420157601==" --===============7669038116420157601== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week Tarek, I forgot, I have my own little CHM notes page here: https://voidstar.blog/vcf-west-2021/ Not much, since at the time not all the exhibits were re-opened yet - so there is much more to see now-a-days. May look into the schedule of their 1401 demo (I think they do fairly regularly, but schedule may vary). While in the area, I did make it over to Oakhurst to see the old Sierra (software company) buildings - it was meaningful to me, but it's a far drive. I have notes about it at the bottom of this page: https://voidstar.blog/san-francisco-california-2021/ -Steve On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 11:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. > I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else > happens. Any recommendations of what is a must see at the museum and > anything else classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)? > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit --===============7669038116420157601==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Mar 12 19:25:59 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 15:25:14 -0400 Message-ID: <0787951C-D2E0-4446-A264-1EA598F9ACB5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6ea0458e-1cf3-2515-6d96-ed3b72095770@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4299972035002102291==" --===============4299972035002102291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 12, 2023, at 3:01 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 3/11/23 14:34, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/11/23 13:28, Paul Koning wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Dijkstra said as much when he evaluated the 1620 for possible use by the = TU Eindhoven -- a big problem is that it was unable to handle arbitrary 8-bit= data. >>=20 >=20 > Perhaps I need to elaborate on my earlier response for those not > familiar with the 1620. > ... > There is no stack,but there is a single register that holds a single > return address when a Branch-and-transmit instruction is executed. > There is a single instruction that branches to the location held in that > register; the register itself is not addressable. > ... > Hope this provides some background for what irked Dijkgstra. Dijkstra's review can be seen here: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/ewd00xx/EW= D37.PDF paul --===============4299972035002102291==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Mar 12 19:26:36 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 15:26:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8b117031-c3ed-77c0-e94c-0fe94cb21f62@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6690393049438322410==" --===============6690393049438322410== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 11, 2023, at 5:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >=20 > On 3/11/23 13:28, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> Dijkstra said as much when he evaluated the 1620 for possible use by the T= U Eindhoven -- a big problem is that it was unable to handle arbitrary 8-bit = data. >=20 > Oh heck, there's no way to test for a numeric blank. Compare works only > for numeric data. The system can't tell the difference between a card > punched with 8-4 or 8-4-1, for example. Lots of holes in the > architecture. But that doesn't mean you couldn't do useful work with it. I agree entirely. What Dijkstra was doing was evaluating a number of machine= s to see if they would serve as the university's primary computer. And given= the 1620's limitations he had good reason to conclude that it's not well sui= ted for that job. Suited for more limited jobs? Definitely. paul --===============6690393049438322410==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Sun Mar 12 20:00:59 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 13:00:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6001659336337739048==" --===============6001659336337739048== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you so much. The links are extremely helpful. Actually, your entire blo= g is excellent, Steve=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 12, 2023, at 12:24 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week >=20 > Tarek, >=20 > I forgot, I have my own little CHM notes page here: > https://voidstar.blog/vcf-west-2021/ >=20 > Not much, since at the time not all the exhibits were re-opened yet - so > there is much more to see now-a-days. May look into the schedule of their > 1401 demo (I think they do fairly regularly, but schedule may vary). >=20 > While in the area, I did make it over to Oakhurst to see the old Sierra > (software company) buildings - it was meaningful to me, but it's a far > drive. I have notes about it at the bottom of this page: > https://voidstar.blog/san-francisco-california-2021/ >=20 > -Steve >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 11:28=E2=80=AFAM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. >> I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else >> happens. Any recommendations of what is a must see at the museum and >> anything else classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)? >>=20 >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit --===============6001659336337739048==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Sun Mar 12 20:21:37 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 15:21:21 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7981376516532924886==" --===============7981376516532924886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's a good question on other things to see. Google's campus is sort of near but I think you need to know someone that works at Google to eat there or hang out. There USED to be the awesome random parts store "Weird Stuff" but unfortunately they went under. Not sure if there's a list of cool stores in the area. On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 11:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California anything > else classic computing nearby? > --===============7981376516532924886==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sun Mar 12 20:42:53 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 15:42:47 -0500 Message-ID: <42685220-6155-6612-240b-f1cf57759aa8@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1030759541201592639==" --===============1030759541201592639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/12/23 15:00, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > Thank you so much. The links are extremely helpful. Actually, your entire b= log is excellent, Steve > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > >> On Mar 12, 2023, at 12:24 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >>> Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week >> Tarek, >> >> I forgot, I have my own little CHM notes page here: >> https://voidstar.blog/vcf-west-2021/ >> >> Not much, since at the time not all the exhibits were re-opened yet - so >> there is much more to see now-a-days. May look into the schedule of their >> 1401 demo (I think they do fairly regularly, but schedule may vary). >> >> While in the area, I did make it over to Oakhurst to see the old Sierra >> (software company) buildings - it was meaningful to me, but it's a far >> drive. I have notes about it at the bottom of this page: >> https://voidstar.blog/san-francisco-california-2021/ >> >> -Steve >> >> >> >> You might check the shops across the street on maps to see their hours.=C2=A0= =20 With the area, they are most likely to be open during hours when the=20 surrounding offices are occupied during the week, so on weekends as=20 mentioned earlier might need to go a bit to find food. But there are a=20 lot of spots around that are good. The Microdata 1600 I donated to the CHM is of course my favorite. In the=20 timeline part of the display Thanks Jim --===============1030759541201592639==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Sun Mar 12 23:05:14 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:04:49 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42685220-6155-6612-240b-f1cf57759aa8@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0880994575784072801==" --===============0880994575784072801== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Jim -> will take a photo of Microdata 1600! =E2=80=9CThe Microdata 1600 I donated to the CHM is of course my favorite. In= the timeline part of the display=E2=80=9D Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 12, 2023, at 1:43 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On 3/12/23 15:00, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >> Thank you so much. The links are extremely helpful. Actually, your entire = blog is excellent, Steve >>=20 >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >>=20 >>>> On Mar 12, 2023, at 12:24 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>> Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week >>> Tarek, >>>=20 >>> I forgot, I have my own little CHM notes page here: >>> https://voidstar.blog/vcf-west-2021/ >>>=20 >>> Not much, since at the time not all the exhibits were re-opened yet - so >>> there is much more to see now-a-days. May look into the schedule of their >>> 1401 demo (I think they do fairly regularly, but schedule may vary). >>>=20 >>> While in the area, I did make it over to Oakhurst to see the old Sierra >>> (software company) buildings - it was meaningful to me, but it's a far >>> drive. I have notes about it at the bottom of this page: >>> https://voidstar.blog/san-francisco-california-2021/ >>>=20 >>> -Steve >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> > You might check the shops across the street on maps to see their hours. Wi= th the area, they are most likely to be open during hours when the surroundin= g offices are occupied during the week, so on weekends as mentioned earlier m= ight need to go a bit to find food. But there are a lot of spots around that = are good. >=20 > The Microdata 1600 I donated to the CHM is of course my favorite. In the ti= meline part of the display > Thanks > Jim >=20 --===============0880994575784072801==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Sun Mar 12 23:13:31 2023 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:12:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6088861763726557988==" --===============6088861763726557988== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Intel Museum in Santa Clara is with a visit. On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 9:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. > I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else > happens. Any recommendations of what is a must see at the museum and > anything else classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)? > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============6088861763726557988==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Mar 13 03:52:51 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 20:52:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0690401880066639035==" --===============0690401880066639035== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 9:52 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. > > I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else > happens. Any recommendations > > of what is a must see at the museum and anything else classic computing > nearby in one day only (March 15)? > > I've only been once a couple years ago. It's an excellent and worthwhile > visit. I only had a day as well, and can't note on other nearby "classic > computing" places (I think the DigiBarn is a bit further to the south, not > sure if open to the public). But just a quick note about food: The > cafeteria they had downstairs wasn't open at the time. You might prepare > your own snack since as I recall there wasn't much eating options in the > immediate area (there is a coffee and sandwich shop across the street, easy > walking distance). > There are at least half a dozen or more eating options across the street, and several more within easy walking distance. Your favorite online mapping facility will confirm this. Sellam --===============0690401880066639035==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Mar 13 04:00:57 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:00:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7395532730179658348==" --===============7395532730179658348== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 9:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. > I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else > happens. Any recommendations of what is a must see at the museum and > anything else classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)? > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit The Silicon Valley of old is basically dead. The magic is gone. That being said, wherever you decide to go, you'll want to plan your travel between a very narrow window of time (I don't know what it is anymore, when I left it was between roughly 11am and 1pm but was constantly narrowing) during which you will want to be on the highways. Outside those hours and you will spend most of your time enjoying the sights of garbage-strewn highways and the sounds of Bay Area traffic. Besides the CHM, I can't think of anything that's even around anymore to consider to visiting otherwise. Even stupid Fry's is gone. Like I said, the Silicon Valley of old is dead. You might still catch a De Anza swap meet. Do they still hold it at De Anza, or did it get moved again? Or is that swap finally dead also? The DEC collectors group still meets, you might be able to time your visit with one of their regular meetings and meet at least a couple other longtime members of this list. Lee mentioned the Intel museum. I'm glad to hear that's still open. Is that place on Woz Way still open? I forget what it's called. Oh well, it was a good run. Sellam --===============7395532730179658348==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Mar 13 04:27:40 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:27:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2862018480628348281==" --===============2862018480628348281== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 12 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > The Silicon Valley of old is basically dead. The magic is gone. > That being said, wherever you decide to go, you'll want to plan your travel > between a very narrow window of time (I don't know what it is anymore, when > I left it was between roughly 11am and 1pm but was constantly narrowing) > during which you will want to be on the highways. Outside those hours and > you will spend most of your time enjoying the sights of garbage-strewn > highways and the sounds of Bay Area traffic. > Besides the CHM, I can't think of anything that's even around anymore to > consider to visiting otherwise. Even stupid Fry's is gone. Like I said, > the Silicon Valley of old is dead. > You might still catch a De Anza swap meet. Do they still hold it at De > Anza, or did it get moved again? Or is that swap finally dead also? > The DEC collectors group still meets, you might be able to time your visit > with one of their regular meetings and meet at least a couple other > longtime members of this list. > Lee mentioned the Intel museum. I'm glad to hear that's still open. Is > that place on Woz Way still open? I forget what it's called. > Oh well, it was a good run. . . . and that nostalgia of what we miss is what fueled stupid prices for a not-to-scale advertising map poster that mentioned some of what once was It used to be worth driving an hour to go to the Computer Literacy bookstore, . . . and the Foothill swap, before dawn, . . . even the John Craig Computer Swap America at the San Jose fairgrounds, . . . Electronics, Etc., and Al Lasher's are gone in Berkeley, Mike Quinn's at the Oakland airport, even Radio Shack is gone --===============2862018480628348281==-- From classiccmp@earthlink.net Mon Mar 13 04:41:12 2023 From: "David C. Jenner" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:35:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1182029134074636227==" --===============1182029134074636227== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I visited CHM in early 2018. I actually didn't go to CHM proper, but=20 arranged with them to visit a warehouse nearby where they store a lot of=20 stuff they don't display. I was able to see my "first personal computer" circa 1962. It was an=20 IBM 709, the last vacuum tube computer from IBM (I think). It had made=20 its way through a couple of stops from the Research Computer Laboratory=20 at the University of Washington to CHM. As an undergraduate, I started=20 working in the Lab as a Student Operator on the "late" shift=20 (10pm-6am?). Early in UW quarters there were often no "jobs" to run=20 through the system, and it sat idle. Plenty of time to fiddle with=20 learning assembler and Fortran. If you had something specific of interest, you might be able to arrange=20 something. I became a member to do this, and still am one today. Dave On 3/12/23 9:27 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. I= always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else happ= ens. Any recommendations of what is a must see at the museum and anything els= e classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)? >=20 > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit --===============1182029134074636227==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon Mar 13 04:44:43 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 00:44:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1469037434601301372==" --===============1469037434601301372== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 12:27 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 12 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > The Silicon Valley of old is basically dead. The magic is gone. > > > . . . and that nostalgia of what we miss is what fueled stupid prices for > a not-to-scale advertising map poster that mentioned some of what once was > > > It used to be worth driving an hour to go to the Computer Literacy > bookstore, . . . > and the Foothill swap, before dawn, . . . > even the John Craig Computer Swap America at the San Jose fairgrounds, . . > . > Electronics, Etc., and Al Lasher's are gone in Berkeley, > Mike Quinn's at the Oakland airport, even Radio Shack is gone > You can go watch the lines of people trying to get their money out of Silicon Valley Bank. I recall driving past the house with the garage that Apple started. Sushi places around there are good. Bill --===============1469037434601301372==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Mon Mar 13 04:58:02 2023 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:57:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3217e810-95d1-26d9-9fe7-7f56f8afa9ac@mainecoon.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1601010133805790130==" --===============1601010133805790130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/12/23 21:27, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > It used to be worth driving an hour to go to the Computer Literacy > bookstore, . . . and the Foothill swap, before dawn, . . . even the > John Craig Computer Swap America at the San Jose fairgrounds, . . . > Electronics, Etc., and Al Lasher's are gone in Berkeley, > Mike Quinn's at the Oakland airport, even Radio Shack is gone Thanks for warping me back to 1977.  Quinn's was an amazing place to get lost in, and both Electronics Etc. and Al Lasher's saved my ass on projects on more than a few occasions. Apparently I'm old.  Jeez. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…" --===============1601010133805790130==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Mon Mar 13 09:57:26 2023 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PSU of a 11/23SD?? Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 10:51:47 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8723378582257793401==" --===============8723378582257793401== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I have to repair an PSU of a 11/23 n a BA11 Box with an H9720 Backplane (with an KDJ-11A) that has run an CNC milling machine until 2 weeks before now. :-) This is a Fidia machine..never heard about it before. The problem is that a big 19000µF 40V capacitor in the PSU has failed and that I think because of that the 2nd of the two Nidec fans has finally failed. I'm in the process of cleaning the goo from the PSU-PCB, found a burnt 5A fuse and now I'm checking the Semiconductors... The problem is here that the Transistors (and diodes) have uncommon types printed on, an TO220 is named SJE2677, another one is labeled 12652-00 RCA..and so on. I've found a label with "0H780-B" on the PSU.. H780 PSU? Where can I get some schematics from that beast? It is a secondary switcher ist seems. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============8723378582257793401==-- From mattislind@gmail.com Mon Mar 13 10:18:31 2023 From: Mattis Lind To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PSU of a 11/23SD?? Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:18:13 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6795165035028355654==" --===============6795165035028355654== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That is a BA11-M box with a H780 supply. The schematics can be found in the KC780 document since the front end processor of the 11/780 is a PDP-11/03 with a RX01 drive. In the end of this document there is a schematic: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/MP00534_KC780_Nov77.pdf Good luck! /Mattis Den mån 13 mars 2023 kl 10:57 skrev Holm Tiffe via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > > Hi all, > > I have to repair an PSU of a 11/23 n a BA11 Box with an H9720 Backplane > (with an KDJ-11A) that has run an CNC milling machine until 2 weeks > before now. :-) This is a Fidia machine..never heard about it before. > > The problem is that a big 19000µF 40V capacitor in the PSU has failed > and that I think because of that the 2nd of the two Nidec fans has > finally failed. > I'm in the process of cleaning the goo from the PSU-PCB, found a burnt > 5A fuse and now I'm checking the Semiconductors... > > The problem is here that the Transistors (and diodes) have uncommon > types printed on, an TO220 is named SJE2677, another one is labeled > 12652-00 RCA..and so on. > I've found a label with "0H780-B" on the PSU.. H780 PSU? > Where can I get some schematics from that beast? It is a secondary > switcher ist seems. > > Regards, > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 > info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 > 741 > > --===============6795165035028355654==-- From djenner@earthlink.net Mon Mar 13 13:11:39 2023 From: "David C. Jenner" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:22:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3db7a1c4-46b2-3702-aae2-f4d2e43896be@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8057042777911597064==" --===============8057042777911597064== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I visited CHM in early 2018. I actually didn't go to CHM proper, but=20 arranged with them to visit a warehouse nearby where they store a lot of=20 stuff they don't display. I was able to see my "first personal computer" circa 1962. It was an=20 IBM 709, the last vacuum tube computer from IBM (I think). It had made=20 its way through a couple of stops from the Research Computer Laboratory=20 at the University of Washington to CHM. As an undergraduate, I started=20 working in the Lab as a Student Operator on the "late" shift=20 (10pm-6am?). Early in UW quarters there were often no "jobs" to run=20 through the system, and it sat idle. Plenty of time to fiddle with=20 learning assembler and Fortran. If you had something specific of interest, you might be able to arrange=20 something. I became a member to do this, and still am one today. Dave On 3/12/23 9:27 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > Hello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California next week. I= always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something else happ= ens. Any recommendations of what is a must see at the museum and anything els= e classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)? >=20 > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit --===============8057042777911597064==-- From ethan@757.org Mon Mar 13 13:42:40 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 09:42:35 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6035627893289318789==" --===============6035627893289318789== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Silicon Valley of old is basically dead. The magic is gone. The two suplus stores are gone (Halted and Weird Stuff Warehouse.) Only thing I can think of that I would recommend is the Musee Mechanique over in San Fran. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C3%A9e_M%C3%A9canique For suplus parts I guess you gotta go to Shenzhen these days. -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============6035627893289318789==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Mon Mar 13 16:48:26 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 09:48:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3266616759205526013==" --===============3266616759205526013== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I truly appreciate all the suggestions that I received for my computer histor= y museum visit this coming Wednesday including the food options and the nearb= y areas. Some notes about the =E2=80=9Cold Silicon Valley=E2=80=9D, the limit= ed food options, and some nearby technology shops being gone is sad, but it i= s what it is. It is all an outcome of the new generation and the disregard fo= r the old. I guess the old Silicon Valley is is one big partial museum, and t= he new are just the campuses of the big tech companies. Everything else is ju= st now virtual. I will still make the best out of the visit. Cheers! Thank you, again. =20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 12, 2023, at 9:28 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California nex= t week. I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something = else happens. Any recommendations of what is a must see at the museum and any= thing else classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)?=20 >=20 > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit --===============3266616759205526013==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Mar 13 20:51:47 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:51:33 -0400 Message-ID: <95C3A127-CE7A-4B59-AE2C-86F9DEA96DA7@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580E7D85886EB3D7C382B57EDB49=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5409605681007634591==" --===============5409605681007634591== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 8, 2023, at 7:25 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >> > I=E2=80=99m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various= tape >> > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700=E2=80=99 9-Track tapes or D= C600A >> > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that >> > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the >> > spottier it is. >>=20 >> For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages >> are fairly useful. >=20 > What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato? Not at all like t= he > audio cassettes later used on home computers. >=20 > bill I asked on Cyber1 and got a single reply, but it wasn't all that definitive: --- Was there any PLATO/NovaNet arrangements with Atari like there was for Texas Instruments computers? The TI system used a cartridge if I remember. Atari had ROM cartridges as well as a cassette attachment to store programs written in ATARI BASIC. The cassette device looked like a standard cassette recorder that was attached to the ATARI 800 using a proprietary serial port. Could this be what they were referring to? --- paul --===============5409605681007634591==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Mon Mar 13 21:00:57 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Atari PLATO was Re: Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 14:00:50 -0700 Message-ID: <6f5ee7a6-9233-e6aa-fb06-917157331ed4@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: <95C3A127-CE7A-4B59-AE2C-86F9DEA96DA7@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3068933535701883158==" --===============3068933535701883158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Was there any PLATO/NovaNet arrangements with Atari like > there was for Texas Instruments computers? Yes, though not exactly. The TI implementation was a true, full Micro-TUTOR runtime that ran Off-Line System lessons directly. Atari had a PLATO cartridge that could connect to a server via modem ("PLATO Homelink") and was arguably more functional than the contemporary PC Homelink, but the Micro-PLATO (*not* Micro-TUTOR) lessons on floppy disk for Apple II and Atari were ported to the 6502 and had no runtime or interpreter per se. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- You are not ready! -------------------------------------------------------= -- --===============3068933535701883158==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Mar 13 21:23:26 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Atari PLATO was Re: Re: Age of Tape Formats? Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 14:23:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6f5ee7a6-9233-e6aa-fb06-917157331ed4@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7167762069430238135==" --===============7167762069430238135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/13/23 14:00, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> Was there any PLATO/NovaNet arrangements with Atari like >> there was for Texas Instruments computers? >=20 > Yes, though not exactly. The TI implementation was a true, full Micro-TUTOR > runtime that ran Off-Line System lessons directly. Atari had a PLATO cartri= dge > that could connect to a server via modem ("PLATO Homelink") and was arguably > more functional than the contemporary PC Homelink, but the Micro-PLATO (*no= t* > Micro-TUTOR) lessons on floppy disk for Apple II and Atari were ported to t= he > 6502 and had no runtime or interpreter per se. I've got a Plato disk for an IBM PC, but it's kind of useless nowadays. --Chuck --===============7167762069430238135==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Mon Mar 13 21:54:22 2023 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Vintage den Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:54:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7395824976946338501==" --===============7395824976946338501== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Has anyone seen the latest on ArsTECHNICA journal on Brian Green’s “deluxe home vintage computer den”? Does it bring back many fond memories of the 70s and 80s. 🙂 Happy computing. Murray 🙂 --===============7395824976946338501==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Mon Mar 13 22:46:57 2023 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] [holm@freibergnet.de: Re: PSU of a 11/23SD??] Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 23:46:51 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0590851494757248984==" --===============0590851494757248984== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oh yes, that's looking good :-) Thank you very much Mattis! BTW: Some years before I helped to repair and administering the east german copy of an 11/780.. the Robotron RVS K1840. The console Processor of this beast was an Robotron K1620, the slowest PDP-11 ever made but it was enough to load the microcode :-) The 1620 used two 5,25" Floppies instead of the 8" one in the 11/780. Best regards, Holm Mattis Lind wrote: > That is a BA11-M box with a H780 supply. The schematics can be found in the > KC780 document since the front end processor of the 11/780 is a PDP-11/03 > with a RX01 drive. > In the end of this document there is a schematic: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/MP00534_KC780_Nov77.pdf > > Good luck! > > /Mattis > > Den mån 13 mars 2023 kl 10:57 skrev Holm Tiffe via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have to repair an PSU of a 11/23 n a BA11 Box with an H9720 Backplane > > (with an KDJ-11A) that has run an CNC milling machine until 2 weeks > > before now. :-) This is a Fidia machine..never heard about it before. > > > > The problem is that a big 19000µF 40V capacitor in the PSU has failed > > and that I think because of that the 2nd of the two Nidec fans has > > finally failed. > > I'm in the process of cleaning the goo from the PSU-PCB, found a burnt > > 5A fuse and now I'm checking the Semiconductors... > > > > The problem is here that the Transistors (and diodes) have uncommon > > types printed on, an TO220 is named SJE2677, another one is labeled > > 12652-00 RCA..and so on. > > I've found a label with "0H780-B" on the PSU.. H780 PSU? > > Where can I get some schematics from that beast? It is a secondary > > switcher ist seems. > > > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > > Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 > > info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 > > 741 > > > > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 ----- Ende weitergeleitete Nachricht ----- -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============0590851494757248984==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Mon Mar 13 23:12:30 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Mad Magazine latest issue about computers Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:12:08 -0700 Message-ID: <29213B35-C8C3-4483-8C9A-465CD93C3DB9@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8239629198430953036==" --===============8239629198430953036== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The latest issue of Mad Magazine (April 2023) is titled =E2=80=9CMAD Takes Ap= art Technology=E2=80=9D. The pages include reprints of past articles that rel= ate to computers, such as =E2=80=9Cif computers are so brilliant=E2=80=9D (Oc= t 1985), =E2=80=9C13 things you never want to hear from a computer guy=E2=80= =9D (May 2005), various y2k, and some 50s/60s tech humor. I posted the cover = photo here: https://ne.thote.it/@tarek/110018157647679272 Regards, Tarek Hoteit --===============8239629198430953036==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Mon Mar 13 23:17:54 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage den Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:17:35 -0700 Message-ID: <5077B555-DBA0-47C2-9F5B-27B2A53619B8@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2763825583742897449==" --===============2763825583742897449== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh yes it is so cool. We were talking about it with its owner IceBreaker on M= astodon https://mastodon.social/@particlesbbs/109999730168329945=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 13, 2023, at 2:54 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi, >=20 >=20 >=20 > Has anyone seen the latest on ArsTECHNICA journal on Brian Green=E2=80=99s > =E2=80=9Cdeluxe home vintage computer den=E2=80=9D? Does it bring back many= fond memories > of the 70s and 80s. =F0=9F=99=82 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Happy computing. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Murray =F0=9F=99=82 --===============2763825583742897449==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Mar 13 23:36:20 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mad Magazine latest issue about computers Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:36:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <29213B35-C8C3-4483-8C9A-465CD93C3DB9@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1475222137180190633==" --===============1475222137180190633== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 13 Mar 2023, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > The latest issue of Mad Magazine (April 2023) is titled =E2=80=9CMAD Takes = > Apart Technology=E2=80=9D. The pages include reprints of past articles that= =20 > relate to computers, such as =E2=80=9Cif computers are so brilliant=E2=80= =9D (Oct=20 > 1985), =E2=80=9C13 things you never want to hear from a computer guy=E2=80= =9D (May=20 > 2005), various y2k, and some 50s/60s tech humor. I posted the cover=20 > photo here: https://ne.thote.it/@tarek/110018157647679272 66 years ago, in 1957, Mad magazine had Donald E. Knuth's first published=20 article! "The Potrzebie System of Weights and Measures" Some fans consider his later works, such as "The Art Of Computer=20 Programming", to be even better. https://silezukuk.tumblr.com/post/616657913 https://www.webofstories.com/play/donald.knuth/8;jsessionid=3D3E388650ECC5A92= 8005E4566E389320E --===============1475222137180190633==-- From spc@conman.org Mon Mar 13 23:57:12 2023 From: Sean Conner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mad Magazine latest issue about computers Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 19:39:44 -0400 Message-ID: <20230313233944.GA12838@brevard.conman.org> In-Reply-To: <29213B35-C8C3-4483-8C9A-465CD93C3DB9@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8741258454863810974==" --===============8741258454863810974== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It was thus said that the Great Tarek Hoteit via cctalk once stated: > The latest issue of Mad Magazine (April 2023) is titled =E2=80=9CMAD Takes = Apart > Technology=E2=80=9D. The pages include reprints of past articles that relat= e to > computers, such as =E2=80=9Cif computers are so brilliant=E2=80=9D (Oct 198= 5), =E2=80=9C13 things > you never want to hear from a computer guy=E2=80=9D (May 2005), various y2k= , and > some 50s/60s tech humor. I posted the cover photo here: > https://ne.thote.it/@tarek/110018157647679272 Does it include a reprint of Donald Knuth's article "Potrzebie System of Weights and Measures"? -spc --===============8741258454863810974==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Tue Mar 14 01:06:06 2023 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tarek Hoteit ->Visiting the computer history museum Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:05:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3690988415855113712==" --===============3690988415855113712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I attended the Vintage Computer Faire at the Computer History Museum many a yr. ago. The museum wasn't opened yet then collecting many computer artifacts including the Cray-1. I also met Steve Wozniak who gladdened the heart of this Canadian nerd/geek/computer enthusiast. I'm looking forward to visiting the museum again in the not-too-distant future. There are computer museums here in Canada; one has Kenbak-1s. --===============3690988415855113712==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Mar 14 01:12:55 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Low cost logic analyzer Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:12:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7721967421845527434==" --===============7721967421845527434== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents, I've been doing logic debugging (on a fairly primitive software defined radio= I designed back in 1999) with an old Philips logic analyzer. It's not bad, = certainly fast enough (I need 100 Msamples/s, it can do twice that) and it's = more than wide enough (I need 32 channels). But its capture memory is micros= copic so I struggle to see more than one or two transactions, and I need to s= ee more than that. Some poking around shows various USB-connected logic analyzers for quite low = prices, and a number of them seem to have suitable specs. I also ran across = sigrok.org which seems to be an open source logic analysis framework that can= drive a bunch of those devices. Nice given that too many of them only come = with Windows software. I suspect there are others that have not too expensive logic analyzers and mi= ght be able to offer up suggestions or product reviews. paul --===============7721967421845527434==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue Mar 14 01:28:44 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 20:28:35 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0859601043514335842==" --===============0859601043514335842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/13/2023 8:12 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Gents, > > I've been doing logic debugging (on a fairly primitive software defined rad= io I designed back in 1999) with an old Philips logic analyzer. It's not bad= , certainly fast enough (I need 100 Msamples/s, it can do twice that) and it'= s more than wide enough (I need 32 channels). But its capture memory is micr= oscopic so I struggle to see more than one or two transactions, and I need to= see more than that. > > Some poking around shows various USB-connected logic analyzers for quite lo= w prices, and a number of them seem to have suitable specs. I also ran acros= s sigrok.org which seems to be an open source logic analysis framework that c= an drive a bunch of those devices. Nice given that too many of them only com= e with Windows software. > > I suspect there are others that have not too expensive logic analyzers and = might be able to offer up suggestions or product reviews. > > paul > If you have 8 or 16 channels to watch, the Saleae units are absolutely=20 incredible: https://www.saleae.com/ For more channels, I will admit I'm partial to old HP units, especially=20 the frames.=C2=A0 I have a 16702A here, which I love.=C2=A0 I have 3 333MHz L= A=20 boards in it 68 channels per board, 204 channels overall.=C2=A0 It's not=20 quite as trivial to use as the Saleae units, but it does offer remote=20 access via X or VNC. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============0859601043514335842==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Tue Mar 14 01:53:52 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:53:37 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5246981549871107630==" --===============5246981549871107630== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I completely agree about the Saleae devices. Very good software, nicely made hardware. They're not cheap though, and only go up to 16 channels. You can capture 16 channels with the very cheap Cypress FX2 dev boards (the older Saleae devices were pretty much that). I'd like to find a convenient solution for more width though - I have an HP16500B but it's huge and noisy. There are one or two possibilities in the sigrok hardware list but nothing I've tried yet. On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 1:28=E2=80=AFAM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 3/13/2023 8:12 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Gents, > > > > I've been doing logic debugging (on a fairly primitive software defined > radio I designed back in 1999) with an old Philips logic analyzer. It's > not bad, certainly fast enough (I need 100 Msamples/s, it can do twice > that) and it's more than wide enough (I need 32 channels). But its capture > memory is microscopic so I struggle to see more than one or two > transactions, and I need to see more than that. > > > > Some poking around shows various USB-connected logic analyzers for quite > low prices, and a number of them seem to have suitable specs. I also ran > across sigrok.org which seems to be an open source logic analysis > framework that can drive a bunch of those devices. Nice given that too > many of them only come with Windows software. > > > > I suspect there are others that have not too expensive logic analyzers > and might be able to offer up suggestions or product reviews. > > > > paul > > > If you have 8 or 16 channels to watch, the Saleae units are absolutely > incredible: https://www.saleae.com/ > > For more channels, I will admit I'm partial to old HP units, especially > the frames. I have a 16702A here, which I love. I have 3 333MHz LA > boards in it 68 channels per board, 204 channels overall. It's not > quite as trivial to use as the Saleae units, but it does offer remote > access via X or VNC. > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > --===============5246981549871107630==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Tue Mar 14 02:32:31 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:32:15 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3287726510269606699==" --===============3287726510269606699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are some nice mixed signal oscilloscopes made by Rigol (Chinese) at a very affordable price. They have a very deep capture buffer for both analog and digital signals. The build quality and capabilities of the MSO1104Z I have are outstanding. I got all the options included for free as a special offer (various decoding options, increased capture buffer depth, etc). IIRC none of the Rigol mixed signal scopes have more than 16 digital channels, but I never really needed more. There is an excellent review including teardown on David Jones' eevblog. All logic analysers I have used had a trigger output so that you can cascade multiple different ones to increase the number of channels captured. The only problem I can see with less than 32 channels would be if you have to trigger on a specific combination involving all 32 bits. Even that could be solved by a bit of external logic if you are desperate enough. Tom Hunter On Tue, 14 Mar 2023, 9:12 am Paul Koning via cctalk, wrote: > Gents, > > I've been doing logic debugging (on a fairly primitive software defined > radio I designed back in 1999) with an old Philips logic analyzer. It's > not bad, certainly fast enough (I need 100 Msamples/s, it can do twice > that) and it's more than wide enough (I need 32 channels). But its capture > memory is microscopic so I struggle to see more than one or two > transactions, and I need to see more than that. > > Some poking around shows various USB-connected logic analyzers for quite > low prices, and a number of them seem to have suitable specs. I also ran > across sigrok.org which seems to be an open source logic analysis > framework that can drive a bunch of those devices. Nice given that too > many of them only come with Windows software. > > I suspect there are others that have not too expensive logic analyzers and > might be able to offer up suggestions or product reviews. > > paul > > --===============3287726510269606699==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Tue Mar 14 03:30:22 2023 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage den Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 22:30:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5077B555-DBA0-47C2-9F5B-27B2A53619B8@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9148557643667991764==" --===============9148557643667991764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable what site is that? On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 6:17=E2=80=AFPM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Oh yes it is so cool. We were talking about it with its owner IceBreaker > on Mastodon https://mastodon.social/@particlesbbs/109999730168329945 > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > > On Mar 13, 2023, at 2:54 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFHi, > > > > > > > > Has anyone seen the latest on ArsTECHNICA journal on Brian Green=E2=80= =99s > > =E2=80=9Cdeluxe home vintage computer den=E2=80=9D? Does it bring back ma= ny fond memories > > of the 70s and 80s. =F0=9F=99=82 > > > > > > > > Happy computing. > > > > > > > > Murray =F0=9F=99=82 > --===============9148557643667991764==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Tue Mar 14 03:58:58 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vintage den Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 20:58:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6156463058815470290==" --===============6156463058815470290== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That is the social media alternative to Twitter. It is called Mastodon. It is= a decentralized network. More info is at https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/08/w= hat-is-mastodon/ Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 13, 2023, at 8:30 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFwhat site is that? >=20 >> On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 6:17=E2=80=AFPM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> Oh yes it is so cool. We were talking about it with its owner IceBreaker >> on Mastodon https://mastodon.social/@particlesbbs/109999730168329945 >>=20 >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >>=20 >>> On Mar 13, 2023, at 2:54 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFHi, >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Has anyone seen the latest on ArsTECHNICA journal on Brian Green=E2=80=99s >>> =E2=80=9Cdeluxe home vintage computer den=E2=80=9D? Does it bring back ma= ny fond memories >>> of the 70s and 80s. =F0=9F=99=82 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Happy computing. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Murray =F0=9F=99=82 >>=20 --===============6156463058815470290==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Tue Mar 14 05:39:10 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 00:38:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5356109586387468078==" --===============5356109586387468078== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm probing two DB25 connectors on the old IBM 5110 to figure out how to programmatically jiggle some pins and get some serial IO going. I've been working on writing a terminal emulator in its PALM machine code (now that we have an excellent assembler for it) - I may go lazy and just have it wrap around on the screen, instead of actually scrolling the screen (the display circuit apparently has no scrolling, you have to DIY). I've also written a kind of "synthesizer" to toy around with the timing of its speaker. It's a video I'll be working on after the "domesticating the home computer" stuff is done. Anyway, as an option slightly cheaper than the Saleae, I'm trying the 32-channel version of the DreamSourceLab U3Pro32. It's not horrible, I've 24 pins hooked up so far. I debated on if 2x16's would be better. Amazon is good about returns, but this little DSL probe is good enough, I'll be keeping it. DreamSourceLab DSLogic U3Pro32 USB-Based Logic Analyzer with 1GHz Sampling Rate, 2Gbits Memory, USB 3.0 Interface, 32 Channels -Steve On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 8:12 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Gents, > > I've been doing logic debugging (on a fairly primitive software defined > radio I designed back in 1999) with an old Philips logic analyzer. It's > not bad, certainly fast enough (I need 100 Msamples/s, it can do twice > that) and it's more than wide enough (I need 32 channels). But its capture > memory is microscopic so I struggle to see more than one or two > transactions, and I need to see more than that. > > Some poking around shows various USB-connected logic analyzers for quite > low prices, and a number of them seem to have suitable specs. I also ran > across sigrok.org which seems to be an open source logic analysis > framework that can drive a bunch of those devices. Nice given that too > many of them only come with Windows software. > > I suspect there are others that have not too expensive logic analyzers and > might be able to offer up suggestions or product reviews. > > paul > > --===============5356109586387468078==-- From curiousmarc3@gmail.com Tue Mar 14 07:03:43 2023 From: Curious Marc To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 00:03:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1273034220025986926==" --===============1273034220025986926== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The cafeteria is open, there is a Starbucks and even a nice Italian across th= e street if you want to treat yourself. On Wednesdays we have a demo of the I= BM 1401 at 3 pm, and before that the restoration team works on it from 10:30 = am on (it needs constant maintenance and repairs to keep it running). I shou= ld be there. Come around and say hi!=20 Google headquarters are up the road, worth a picture in front of the sign. Of= course a stop at Anchor Electronics in Santa Clara if you are interested in = vintage components. The slightly underwhelming Intel Museum in Santa Clara al= so. No more Weird Stuff, Halted and Excess Solutions unfortunately :-( Marc > On Mar 13, 2023, at 9:48 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI truly appreciate all the suggestions that I received for my comp= uter history museum visit this coming Wednesday including the food options an= d the nearby areas. Some notes about the =E2=80=9Cold Silicon Valley=E2=80=9D= , the limited food options, and some nearby technology shops being gone is sa= d, but it is what it is. It is all an outcome of the new generation and the d= isregard for the old. I guess the old Silicon Valley is is one big partial mu= seum, and the new are just the campuses of the big tech companies. Everything= else is just now virtual. I will still make the best out of the visit. Cheer= s! >=20 > Thank you, again. =20 >=20 > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit >=20 >> On Mar 12, 2023, at 9:28 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFHello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California ne= xt week. I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but something= else happens. Any recommendations of what is a must see at the museum and an= ything else classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)?=20 >>=20 >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit --===============1273034220025986926==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Tue Mar 14 07:59:27 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 07:50:51 +0000 Message-ID: <03deb40c6da5415aafbc33ef505fff28@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6567565255703819763==" --===============6567565255703819763== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Some options for consideration, not all meeting your specific requirement https://www.pctestinstruments.com/index.asp 34b wide, sync (200 MS/s) or asy= nc (500 MS/s) operation, fights with Win11 - driver upgrade required Had one for ~15 years, now has a few dead channels, merits consideration https://telonic.co.uk/product/siglent-sds1104x-e-4ch-100mhz-1gsa-s-super-phos= phor-oscilloscope/ https://telonic.co.uk/product/siglent-sla1016-mixed-signal-option/ https://telonic.co.uk/product/siglent-sds1000x-e-16la/ 4 ch CRO + 16 ch digits : OK as a basic scope and logic capture device My standard CRO these past few years, rarely used above 4 + 8 configuration "100 MHz" means this is not a signal characterisation scope - definitely chal= lenged above 50 MHz Note Based on bench experience I dont rate the equivalent Rigol boxes, e.g. D= S1074, the GUI is challenged and the HCI processor very sluggish. The Siglen= t is much more responsive and rather less clunky to drive. =20 https://digilent.com/shop/digital-discovery-portable-usb-logic-analyzer-and-d= igital-pattern-generator/=20 32 ch at 200 MS/s and pleasantly inexpensive If I was buying, I would consider trying one Martin From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 14 March 2023 01:13 Gents, I've been doing logic debugging (on a fairly primitive software defined radio= I designed back in 1999) with an old Philips logic analyzer. It's not bad, = certainly fast enough (I need 100 Msamples/s, it can do twice that) and it's = more than wide enough (I need 32 channels). But its capture memory is micros= copic so I struggle to see more than one or two transactions, and I need to s= ee more than that. Some poking around shows various USB-connected logic analyzers for quite low = prices, and a number of them seem to have suitable specs. I also ran across = sigrok.org which seems to be an open source logic analysis framework that can= drive a bunch of those devices. Nice given that too many of them only come = with Windows software. I suspect there are others that have not too expensive logic analyzers and mi= ght be able to offer up suggestions or product reviews. paul --===============6567565255703819763==-- From romietoo9ibi@xx.vu Tue Mar 14 09:04:35 2023 From: Alexander Huemer To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:57:47 +0100 Message-ID: <20230314085747.e6tmn6besds3caok@stacey.r0tty.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7032082848453371844==" --===============7032082848453371844== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 08:28:35PM -0500, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 3/13/2023 8:12 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Gents, > >=20 > > I've been doing logic debugging (on a fairly primitive software defined r= adio I designed back in 1999) with an old Philips logic analyzer. It's not b= ad, certainly fast enough (I need 100 Msamples/s, it can do twice that) and i= t's more than wide enough (I need 32 channels). But its capture memory is mi= croscopic so I struggle to see more than one or two transactions, and I need = to see more than that. > >=20 > > Some poking around shows various USB-connected logic analyzers for quite = low prices, and a number of them seem to have suitable specs. I also ran acr= oss sigrok.org which seems to be an open source logic analysis framework that= can drive a bunch of those devices. Nice given that too many of them only c= ome with Windows software. > >=20 > > I suspect there are others that have not too expensive logic analyzers an= d might be able to offer up suggestions or product reviews. > >=20 > > paul > >=20 > If you have 8 or 16 channels to watch, the Saleae units are absolutely > incredible: https://www.saleae.com/ The Chinese knockoffs of those are working beautifully and cost next to=20 nothing compared to the original. $50 vs $1300. Considering how well the=20 software works and how much memory depth you get, it is really amazing. I use one of those[1] since years with great pleasure. Those USB LAs are so cheap that there isn't a good reason not to have=20 one in the desk drawer. The limitation that must be understood is the number of channels. If you=20 need more than 16, then it's an entirely different ball game. There are=20 no cheap and small LAs that exceed 16. Many people go with used HP instruments. They do their job well, but are * expensive in comparison * noisy * bulky * obnoxious if you want to move traces to a PC I would only buy a large LA is you are really sure that you need more=20 than 16 channels. -Alex [1] https://www.aliexpress.com/i/33002975812.html --===============7032082848453371844==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Mar 14 09:47:18 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:47:07 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4008682932559990296==" --===============4008682932559990296== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 14 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis wrote: > I'm probing two DB25 connectors on the old IBM 5110 to figure out how to > programmatically jiggle some pins and get some serial IO going. I've This is easy since it is an I/O bus. The instructions are GETB, PUTB, STAT=20 and CTRL. In any case the corresponding control line is asserted. This means, a PUTB will put the device address on the X/Y lines, the data=20 byte onto the Bus Out lines, and assert Put Strobe. Oh yes, one interesting thing to note: the STAT instruction (usually to=20 get some status information from the device) will put the register=20 *number* onto the Bus Out lines. I think IBM did this to be able to select=20 one from several status bytes. They do this with the Printer Adapter, and=20 in a completely different and idiotic way with the Diskette Adapter. I had analysed the bus protocol many years ago, the result can be found=20 here in the section "External Bus": http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/ind= ex.html > it wrap around on the screen, instead of actually scrolling the screen (the > display circuit apparently has no scrolling, you have to DIY). No, the display circuitry just displays memory addresses $200-$5FF (normal=20 mode) or $000-$1FF (register display). It can't do anything else. > I've also written a kind of "synthesizer" to toy around with the timing of > its speaker. It's a video I'll be working on after the "domesticating the The "problem" with the speaker: it's a "self-beeping" device, i.e. it=20 beeps with voltage applied. So you can't use any form of PWM or the like=20 to have other frequencies. I've tried that with no success. Christian --===============4008682932559990296==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Tue Mar 14 10:49:42 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:22:36 +0000 Message-ID: <01SOZDXKO7QA8WVZFL@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6106545996807997102==" --===============6106545996807997102== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > There are some nice mixed signal oscilloscopes made by Rigol (Chinese) at a > very affordable price. > Until just over a year ago, buying very afforadable Russian oil and gas also seemed like a great idea with no downsides compared to getting these products elsewhere. Regards, Peter Coghlan. --===============6106545996807997102==-- From cclist@sytse.net Tue Mar 14 12:33:04 2023 From: Sytse van Slooten To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 13:32:55 +0100 Message-ID: <8D073EA4-F13B-4B4F-96E8-BCED8E859A46@sytse.net> In-Reply-To: <03deb40c6da5415aafbc33ef505fff28@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4325494058828532465==" --===============4325494058828532465== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I also use the pctestinstruments. One of its strong points is that it plays w= ell with virtualbox - I run it in a W7 guest on my centos desktop. The buffer= depth is usually a bit limiting though, and triggering is also somewhat basi= c. Another option that I haven't seen mentioned: use the built-in logic analyzer= s that the fpga tool chains come with - you'd have to wire up an fpga and sam= ple the signals you need, but all the complexity of triggering, buffering and= displaying would be done by the tool chain.=20 -- Sytse > On 14 Mar 2023, at 08:50, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Paul >=20 > Some options for consideration, not all meeting your specific requirement >=20 > https://www.pctestinstruments.com/index.asp 34b wide, sync (200 MS/s) or a= sync (500 MS/s) operation, fights with Win11 - driver upgrade required > Had one for ~15 years, now has a few dead channels, merits consideration >=20 > https://telonic.co.uk/product/siglent-sds1104x-e-4ch-100mhz-1gsa-s-super-ph= osphor-oscilloscope/ > https://telonic.co.uk/product/siglent-sla1016-mixed-signal-option/ > https://telonic.co.uk/product/siglent-sds1000x-e-16la/ > 4 ch CRO + 16 ch digits : OK as a basic scope and logic capture device > My standard CRO these past few years, rarely used above 4 + 8 configuration > "100 MHz" means this is not a signal characterisation scope - definitely ch= allenged above 50 MHz > Note Based on bench experience I dont rate the equivalent Rigol boxes, e.g.= DS1074, the GUI is challenged and the HCI processor very sluggish. The Sigl= ent is much more responsive and rather less clunky to drive. =20 >=20 > https://digilent.com/shop/digital-discovery-portable-usb-logic-analyzer-and= -digital-pattern-generator/=20 > 32 ch at 200 MS/s and pleasantly inexpensive > If I was buying, I would consider trying one >=20 > Martin >=20 > From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 > Sent: 14 March 2023 01:13 >=20 > Gents, >=20 > I've been doing logic debugging (on a fairly primitive software defined rad= io I designed back in 1999) with an old Philips logic analyzer. It's not bad= , certainly fast enough (I need 100 Msamples/s, it can do twice that) and it'= s more than wide enough (I need 32 channels). But its capture memory is micr= oscopic so I struggle to see more than one or two transactions, and I need to= see more than that. >=20 > Some poking around shows various USB-connected logic analyzers for quite lo= w prices, and a number of them seem to have suitable specs. I also ran acros= s sigrok.org which seems to be an open source logic analysis framework that c= an drive a bunch of those devices. Nice given that too many of them only com= e with Windows software. >=20 > I suspect there are others that have not too expensive logic analyzers and = might be able to offer up suggestions or product reviews. >=20 > paul >=20 --===============4325494058828532465==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Mar 14 14:39:40 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:39:31 -0400 Message-ID: <32AC007D-BFBD-4579-ABCA-6FEFC9C00400@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1674549194528374067==" --===============1674549194528374067== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 14, 2023, at 1:38 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > Anyway, as an option slightly cheaper than the Saleae, I'm trying the > 32-channel version of the DreamSourceLab U3Pro32. It's not horrible, I've > 24 pins hooked up so far. I debated on if 2x16's would be better. > Amazon is good about returns, but this little DSL probe is good enough, > I'll be keeping it. >=20 > DreamSourceLab DSLogic U3Pro32 USB-Based Logic Analyzer with 1GHz Sampling > Rate, 2Gbits Memory, USB 3.0 Interface, 32 Channels Thanks everyone. Some reactions to what I heard: The U3Pro32 happens to be what I was looking at when I spotted the link to si= grok.org. (Does anyone here have experience with that software?) Among othe= r things, it has a long list of supported devices, a lot of logic analyzers o= f various specs, many that look like the sort of low cost choices I was looki= ng for. I saw DreamSourceLab, Hantek, and a bunch of others offering 32 bit = wide analyzers. On HP: yes, perhaps. I used one of those back at DEC, in the mid 1980s. Nic= e machine, but my suspicion is that I'd run into the small memory problem aga= in that plagues me with the Philips/Fluke analyzer I use right now. I can see lots of 16 channel options including mixed oscilloscopes. That doe= sn't work for what I need, because I have (a) a control interface (EPP mode p= arallel port, so that's about 12-14 wires right there) plus the resulting int= ernal signals I want to see, plus a serial data link going the other way. 3= 2 channels is what I have right now and that's comfortable; 16 would mean a l= ot of fiddling around to keep switching which subset I can see. Also, I have= a Tek DAS602 so a new scope isn't all that appealing, especially the lower c= ost ones (much less bandwidth, though admittedly more memory) -- and while Ri= gol is less expensive than Tek it still has a fairly substantial price tag. I noticed the sigrok.org devices list mentions one that is open source hardwa= re, that sounds a bit like what Sytse was talking about. paul --===============1674549194528374067==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Tue Mar 14 15:07:26 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 15:07:10 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <32AC007D-BFBD-4579-ABCA-6FEFC9C00400@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7547022869143505372==" --===============7547022869143505372== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, I've used sigrok and sat on their IRC channel for quite a while. I've used the gpib analyser and extended a DMM driver to cover the hp34401A. The logic analyser client is probably the best application and is comparable with Saleae's own client. The streaming cli clients are also good, but I think the scope client is behind Zonenberg's glscopeclient. Sigrok is generally pretty good but is suffering developer shortage at present. The code quality is very good so this doesn't create a bug fixing issue but it does mean some recent feature additions haven't made it to the mainstream. If you (or anyone) has a taste for code reviewing I believe you'd be very welcome to help. I've also seen a recent patch to make it easier to use out-of-tree drivers for this very reason. I don't know much about that but it's an op[tion if you want to use the rasbperry pico as an acquisition engine. Open source and cross-platform credentials are excellent : in fact this causes a slight problem, as the Cypress FX3 which would otherwise be a good candidate as an acquisition engine can only be shipped with closed-source proprietary blobs, which stops it being used by sigrok. Any errors in the above are my own.. On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 2:39 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mar 14, 2023, at 1:38 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ... > > Anyway, as an option slightly cheaper than the Saleae, I'm trying the > > 32-channel version of the DreamSourceLab U3Pro32. It's not horrible, > I've > > 24 pins hooked up so far. I debated on if 2x16's would be better. > > Amazon is good about returns, but this little DSL probe is good enough, > > I'll be keeping it. > > > > DreamSourceLab DSLogic U3Pro32 USB-Based Logic Analyzer with 1GHz > Sampling > > Rate, 2Gbits Memory, USB 3.0 Interface, 32 Channels > > Thanks everyone. Some reactions to what I heard: > > The U3Pro32 happens to be what I was looking at when I spotted the link to > sigrok.org. (Does anyone here have experience with that software?) > Among other things, it has a long list of supported devices, a lot of logic > analyzers of various specs, many that look like the sort of low cost > choices I was looking for. I saw DreamSourceLab, Hantek, and a bunch of > others offering 32 bit wide analyzers. > > On HP: yes, perhaps. I used one of those back at DEC, in the mid 1980s. > Nice machine, but my suspicion is that I'd run into the small memory > problem again that plagues me with the Philips/Fluke analyzer I use right > now. > > I can see lots of 16 channel options including mixed oscilloscopes. That > doesn't work for what I need, because I have (a) a control interface (EPP > mode parallel port, so that's about 12-14 wires right there) plus the > resulting internal signals I want to see, plus a serial data link going the > other way. 32 channels is what I have right now and that's comfortable; > 16 would mean a lot of fiddling around to keep switching which subset I can > see. Also, I have a Tek DAS602 so a new scope isn't all that appealing, > especially the lower cost ones (much less bandwidth, though admittedly more > memory) -- and while Rigol is less expensive than Tek it still has a fairly > substantial price tag. > > I noticed the sigrok.org devices list mentions one that is open source > hardware, that sounds a bit like what Sytse was talking about. > > paul > > > > --===============7547022869143505372==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue Mar 14 18:06:06 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 18:00:02 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <32AC007D-BFBD-4579-ABCA-6FEFC9C00400@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2173509662566079740==" --===============2173509662566079740== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On HP: yes, perhaps. I used one of those back at DEC, in the mid 1980s. Nic= e machine, but my suspicion is that I'd run into the small memory problem aga= in that plagues me with the Philips/Fluke analyzer I use right now. We use several HP analyzers around here, all from the 80s. Even the "small" o= nes are 72 channel and more than sufficient for all your old computer needs. = The big ones have Ethernet and will talk X11 across the network, which is sup= er handy. The older models are serial-only, but can print to a ThinkJet emula= tor running on a PC. That's how I made e.g. this capture image: http://users.glitchwrks.com/~glitch/images/xtide/xt_ide_rev4/read_delay.gif Before getting my first HP 1650, I had an older Sony/Tektronix that suffered = from the "not deep enough capture memory" issue. Haven't run into that with t= he HPs yet, especially the big HP 16500 series. I've found that if I'm runnin= g out of memory depth, I'm probably not hooked up right. FWIW, I've ran into two hobbyists who were persuaded to buy used HP gear afte= r their Chinese knockoff Siglent analyzers started *driving* some of the chan= nels. Thanks, Jonathan --===============2173509662566079740==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Mar 14 18:38:43 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 14:38:12 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3ChzwCccAtv4JPyn1CMzcdJcdQthe8T=5FZyLiCT0HkIudCSX9Nw?= =?utf-8?q?8FMBEh-bQ8=5FDoBNr7F7NfMDwqJSK5LPQ0-b-OcqQPYHI8S7mkZeFOJOmp5E=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5780674069041418447==" --===============5780674069041418447== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 14, 2023, at 2:00 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On HP: yes, perhaps. I used one of those back at DEC, in the mid 1980s. Ni= ce machine, but my suspicion is that I'd run into the small memory problem ag= ain that plagues me with the Philips/Fluke analyzer I use right now. >=20 > We use several HP analyzers around here, all from the 80s. Even the "small"= ones are 72 channel and more than sufficient for all your old computer needs= . The big ones have Ethernet and will talk X11 across the network, which is s= uper handy. The older models are serial-only, but can print to a ThinkJet emu= lator running on a PC. That's how I made e.g. this capture image: >=20 > http://users.glitchwrks.com/~glitch/images/xtide/xt_ide_rev4/read_delay.gif >=20 > Before getting my first HP 1650, I had an older Sony/Tektronix that suffere= d from the "not deep enough capture memory" issue. Haven't run into that with= the HPs yet, especially the big HP 16500 series. I've found that if I'm runn= ing out of memory depth, I'm probably not hooked up right. Often that's true. The issue I'm fighting right now is on a baseband data tr= ansfer which occurs at 11k per second, and some of them seem to be getting me= ssed up. So there are long gaps in between. I only see one or two of them b= efore memory runs out. It may be what I need to do is unplug the serial link= , which is running with a continuous clock (6 MHz or so), that's probably suc= king up buffer entries. The analyzer I have is a Philips PM3585 -- 96 channels (though I don't have a= full set of cables and pods), 2k samples. So in theory, with some care and = enough wires unplugged, I should be able to see 100 or 200 cycles of the prob= lematic transfers. That might just be good enough. paul --===============5780674069041418447==-- From mark.tapley@swri.org Tue Mar 14 18:46:48 2023 From: "Tapley, Mark B." To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NextStep/Intel, 486's and Pentium overdrive, thoughts. Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 17:51:39 +0000 Message-ID: <4DDD7D29-026A-4388-B119-6F5A9F967DCC@swri.org> In-Reply-To: <00b8bccb-5539-c7ba-fecc-52d4068172a7@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2662418948052140815==" --===============2662418948052140815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, one question on the conclusion: was the Mandelbrot program set to use floatin= g point, or fixed-point arithmetic? I=E2=80=99m pretty sure the DSP version w= as fixed-point (integer, scaled) arithmetic to make it run faster. The conclu= sion might apply to the Pentium=E2=80=99s performance in integer tasks but no= t be relevant to floating-point tasks. - Mark On Mar 3, 2023, at 4:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] As part of fixing the Pro/380 I dug out and decided to get running my two Int= el systems. These are Compaq Deskpro/XE systems. One is a 4100 which has an I= ntel 486/100 (25mhz, quad clock), the other I upgraded with a Pentium P524T o= verdrive chip at 83mhz (33mhz external clock). The P524T was an interesting duck: It's a 5 volt pentium, 32 bit external bus= but they did double the amount of 64 bit on-chip cache so it can perk along = quicker than one might think. Not many were sold, but I have one and there yo= u go. It even has a little fan on the heat sink that is powered off the chip.= Cute. The Deskpro/XE's were great systems, slimline, Compaq business audio, QVision= video interface with 2mb of RAM, IDE drive, and oddly enough a 3 slot ISA bu= s. Most of the system ran at native 32 bit, so you just ran a slow network ca= rd in the ISA. They also had up to 32mb memory, and an optional memory cache = card to speed things up. The systems had issues, both on-board batteries were dead, resulting in me ha= ving to find, download, run (not easy) and extract a setup floppy for this mo= del as you can't do the system settings without it. Not quite an EISA config,= but similar levels of stupidity in the ISA world. And one of them does not s= eem to see the ISA bus, but not a big deal as it will just be a DOS floppy ma= ker. Anyway, finally got one of them running and decided to do some benchmarks. Bo= oting NextStep 4.2, and tried out a few basic tests. Findings: For general booting and such the Pentium does not offer that much of an advan= tage. Time to go from login window to system quiet with 20mb memory (I load s= everal apps by default) is: 486/100-121 seconds Pentium: 120 seconds Installing and removing the 256k cache card (an option I have one of) doesn't= change the time much at all, maybe a second. Boosting memory to 32mb brought that number down to 84 seconds. Moral: Memory= matters. Then I figured I would try a CPU intensive app: Good old NeXT Mandelbrot. Whi= le a true NeXT slab will kick the rear of any Intel chip (due to the on board= DSP56001) I figured I would put the Pentium up against the 486/100 and runni= ng the 486 at 33mhz external bus (133mhz) in insane overclock mode.`So render= ing the "Valley of Fear" (a complex subset) resulted in: Pentium, no external cache: 36 seconds. Pentium, external cache: 34 seconds. Not bad, cache really doesn't do a whole lot here. 486/100, no cache: 90 seconds. Wow, that is slow. 486/133, no cache: 65s. Faster, but very slow. So the addition of the Pentium makes a huge difference on floating point CPU = intensive apps. I'm also guessing the extra large cache makes a difference as= well for highly iterative loads. With this done I can continue looking for a 5.25 floppy to see about making m= ore PRO disks. --===============2662418948052140815==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue Mar 14 20:44:50 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 15:44:43 -0500 Message-ID: <33ae6db2-c0c2-79f7-b95a-438b6c134344@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3ChzwCccAtv4JPyn1CMzcdJcdQthe8T=5FZyLiCT0HkIudCSX9Nw?= =?utf-8?q?8FMBEh-bQ8=5FDoBNr7F7NfMDwqJSK5LPQ0-b-OcqQPYHI8S7mkZeFOJOmp5E=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6603241563230676388==" --===============6603241563230676388== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/14/2023 1:00 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> On HP: yes, perhaps. I used one of those back at DEC, in the mid 1980s. Ni= ce machine, but my suspicion is that I'd run into the small memory problem ag= ain that plagues me with the Philips/Fluke analyzer I use right now. > We use several HP analyzers around here, all from the 80s. Even the "small"= ones are 72 channel and more than sufficient for all your old computer needs= . The big ones have Ethernet and will talk X11 across the network, which is s= uper handy. As stated previously, I agree with this.=C2=A0 the 16500/1670X units have=20 replaceable cards for LA options galore, and the 16717s I have=C2=A0 are=20 2MB/4MB capture length.=C2=A0 If you capture based on a 1MHz clock, that's=20 multiple seconds of capture.=C2=A0 If that's not enough, feel free to put a=20 16760A card in for 68 channels of 400Mhz timing and 64MB of storage.=C2=A0 If= =20 you halve that and use 34 channels, you can get 800MHz timing, and I=20 think 128MB of storage, if I read the specs correctly.=C2=A0 You can also=20 trigger off the 16530/31 DSO card, or the 16521/22 function generator.=C2=A0 = If X scares you, VNC is available on these, which is what I use.=C2=A0 The=20 trigger syntax is odd but powerful. > > Before getting my first HP 1650, I had an older Sony/Tektronix that suffere= d from the "not deep enough capture memory" issue. Haven't run into that with= the HPs yet, especially the big HP 16500 series. I've found that if I'm runn= ing out of memory depth, I'm probably not hooked up right. I find I get lazy given how much I have.=C2=A0 Probably not good practice,=20 but it happens. I'll admit that I had higher hopes for the sigrok stuff, but maybe it's=20 just me.=C2=A0 I have a 34 channel LA here that can use the sigrok tools, but= =20 I've found my self continually frustrated by the entire system not=20 working or the data not being represented well so I can debug.=C2=A0 So, I've= =20 shied away from the sigrok in lieu of either using the absolutely=20 simplistic (but fast to set up) Saleae App or delving into the=20 16500/1670X unit to get what I need. As to this comment: On 3/14/2023 3:57 AM, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote: > The Chinese knockoffs of those are working beautifully and cost next to > nothing compared to the original. $50 vs $1300. Considering how well the > software works and how much memory depth you get, it is really amazing. > I use one of those[1] since years with great pleasure. > Those USB LAs are so cheap that there isn't a good reason not to have > one in the desk drawer. I have misgivings.=C2=A0 As a person who loves a bargain, Alexander has a=20 valid point, and I considered adding it to my initial response=20 (confession, as Alex does, I own one of them).=C2=A0 But, as some who worked = to bring a product to market only to see people on forums say "Skip=20 buying it from Jim for $$$$, you can build the same thing by yourself=20 for $ from AliExpress parts or buy this eBay knockoff for 2X$", I will=20 admit that is somewhat infuriating.=C2=A0 If the hobby community is not=20 willing to pay a bit of premium to support those who bring out the=20 products that benefit the community, the designers will get disgusted=20 and leave.=C2=A0 Thus, I'd say if a Saleae is something to pursue, try to buy= =20 one from them, to support their awesome GUI, and then drop by eBay and=20 grab 2 or 4 of the knockoffs to put in your toolbox or travel debugging=20 rucksack. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============6603241563230676388==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Tue Mar 14 20:54:40 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NextStep/Intel, 486's and Pentium overdrive, thoughts. Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 14:25:39 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4DDD7D29-026A-4388-B119-6F5A9F967DCC@swri.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7252215364233355521==" --===============7252215364233355521== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That is a good question. I seem to recall that when it was compiled for Next hardware that it used the DSP by default, but when compiled for other platforms it used their libraries. My guess is the Intel library used floating point. It fits in with other narratives about the Pentium chip, one of the biggest speed boosts was the new floating point system which was a different design over the 80386 type FPU that was in the 486 (the 486 was faster than the 386 for FPP because the unit was mounted on the die as opposed to a separate chip). C On 3/14/2023 1:51 PM, Tapley, Mark B. wrote: > Chris, > one question on the conclusion: was the Mandelbrot program set to use > floating point, or fixed-point arithmetic? I’m pretty sure the DSP > version was fixed-point (integer, scaled) arithmetic to make it run > faster. The conclusion might apply to the Pentium’s performance in > integer tasks but not be relevant to floating-point tasks. --===============7252215364233355521==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue Mar 14 21:16:26 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 21:16:02 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4449485055395799078==" --===============4449485055395799078== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > But, as some who worked > to bring a product to market only to see people on forums say "Skip > buying it from Jim for $$$$, you can build the same thing by yourself > for $ from AliExpress parts or buy this eBay knockoff for 2X$", I will > admit that is somewhat infuriating. If the hobby community is not > willing to pay a bit of premium to support those who bring out the > products that benefit the community, the designers will get disgusted > and leave.=20 Agree 100%. We stopped running XT-IDEs for a while due to the proliferation o= f knockoffs and the total indifference of a good portion of the community -- = some folks even get hostile when you suggest they maybe not buy knockoffs tha= t can't even abide by the terms of the open-source project license! I'd designed a universal "bolts to any existing XT-IDE and doesn't eat a slot= " CF adapter that never got run. After posting a development picture of the p= rototype, one of the knockoff folks ripped the design off before I had even r= eceived my quote from Keystone for the custom ISA brackets. No way was I goin= g to spend on a run of 500x custom brackets when someone was already ripping = off the idea. There are other things that we've chosen not to run for the sam= e basic reason, and others that won't get open sourced. > Thus, I'd say if a Saleae is something to pursue, try to buy > one from them, to support their awesome GUI, and then drop by eBay and > grab 2 or 4 of the knockoffs to put in your toolbox or travel debugging > rucksack. I'll go further and say don't buy knockoffs, period. It's nice to support the designers in some capacity, but buying knockoffs fue= ls the ecosystem that creates knockoffs. With our stuff, it's never been that= a single knockoff operation eats our lunch, it's that there's a zillion of t= hem that run maybe 100 boards and disappear. Death by a thousand cuts. They c= harge $1-5 less while running the cheapest possible boards, stuffing with sal= vaged chips, etc. Meanwhile, we're having to pay for runs of boards with hard= gold plating and buy genuine parts from Mouser. Thanks, Jonathan --===============4449485055395799078==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Tue Mar 14 21:35:42 2023 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 17:03:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3632599542459350624==" --===============3632599542459350624== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 10:32:15AM +0800, Tom Hunter wrote: > There are some nice mixed signal oscilloscopes made by Rigol (Chinese) at a > very affordable price. They have a very deep capture buffer for both analog > and digital signals. The build quality and capabilities of the MSO1104Z I > have are outstanding. I got all the options included for free as a special > offer (various decoding options, increased capture buffer depth, etc). IIRC > none of the Rigol mixed signal scopes have more than 16 digital channels, > but I never really needed more. I got the MSO5074 and was disappointed with price/value for the logic analyzer option. The hardware seems ok but the software is limited. They did fix one major bug I reported but said don't do that for the more minor bug. Some of the old logic analyzer's I have used have better user interface. One annoyance was you can bus signals but you can't turn off the raw signals so doesn't help screen crowding. It was just adding an additional decode that seemed to be a little odd. There were more but not recalling details now. --===============3632599542459350624==-- From romietoo9ibi@xx.vu Tue Mar 14 21:49:18 2023 From: Alexander Huemer To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 22:48:59 +0100 Message-ID: <20230314214859.5eddbkruwzqfayys@stacey.r0tty.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CdvAnWNFX6VWTrJDPeWoZA3z6A1HYwPjxl9nwlRxUCL2Hatgnzs?= =?utf-8?q?N8Kdc6fSPpJrZWaLKyCJoHtz0TqMkA8y2JHXxAjyEVQ1vdo1wWeaIseMI=3D=40gl?= =?utf-8?q?itchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6859573762566553201==" --===============6859573762566553201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 09:16:02PM +0000, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > But, as some who worked > > to bring a product to market only to see people on forums say "Skip > > buying it from Jim for $$$$, you can build the same thing by yourself > > for $ from AliExpress parts or buy this eBay knockoff for 2X$", I will > > admit that is somewhat infuriating. If the hobby community is not > > willing to pay a bit of premium to support those who bring out the > > products that benefit the community, the designers will get disgusted > > and leave.=20 >=20 > Agree 100%. We stopped running XT-IDEs for a while due to the proliferation= of knockoffs and the total indifference of a good portion of the community -= - some folks even get hostile when you suggest they maybe not buy knockoffs t= hat can't even abide by the terms of the open-source project license! >=20 > I'd designed a universal "bolts to any existing XT-IDE and doesn't eat a sl= ot" CF adapter that never got run. After posting a development picture of the= prototype, one of the knockoff folks ripped the design off before I had even= received my quote from Keystone for the custom ISA brackets. No way was I go= ing to spend on a run of 500x custom brackets when someone was already rippin= g off the idea. There are other things that we've chosen not to run for the s= ame basic reason, and others that won't get open sourced. >=20 > > Thus, I'd say if a Saleae is something to pursue, try to buy > > one from them, to support their awesome GUI, and then drop by eBay and > > grab 2 or 4 of the knockoffs to put in your toolbox or travel debugging > > rucksack. >=20 > I'll go further and say don't buy knockoffs, period. >=20 > It's nice to support the designers in some capacity, but buying=20 > knockoffs fuels the ecosystem that creates knockoffs. With our stuff,=20 > it's never been that a single knockoff operation eats our lunch, it's=20 > that there's a zillion of them that run maybe 100 boards and=20 > disappear. Death by a thousand cuts. They charge $1-5 less while=20 > running the cheapest possible boards, stuffing with salvaged chips,=20 > etc. Meanwhile, we're having to pay for runs of boards with hard gold=20 > plating and buy genuine parts from Mouser. It's not so black and white. There are severl indications that clones of Saleae LAs being on the=20 market is not due to some Chinese pirate shop stealing the original IP=20 against the will of the creators. * The main IC in a 16 channel Saleae LA is a Xilinx Spartan 6, which=20 makes it rather trivial to protect the bitstream to an extent that=20 makes it close to impossible to run it on contraband hardware. Saleae=20 chose not to make use of that. * The Saleae host software doesn't attempt to validate that the hardware=20 it talks to is genuine even though that would be trivial to do as=20 well. * No import stop of clones or anything like that was attempted by the=20 company. * Listings on eBay, etc. of Saleae clones are advertised as "Saleae",=20 which could easily be stopped by the company, that has happened=20 thousands of times for other products. Clones of Saleae devices are on the market since a long time. Saleae=20 brought out new hardware revisions since then, so the argument 'they=20 were taken by surprise' doesn't hold up. I see this as a marketing stunt. "Hobbyists can buy the cheap stuff from China, companies where things=20 matter will still buy from us. Word of mouth will help us." That strategy is working pretty well actually and does so for other=20 companies as well. Let's face it, there is a sizable number of people who will never ever=20 buy a logic analyzer for north of $1000. Either because they can't=20 afford it or are too greedy. That is not lost revenue for the company. =20 Either those people buy a clone or they don't have a Saleae product, end=20 of story. Should you buy a knockoff iphone? I don't know. Though a knockoff Saleae LA won't make you end up in hell. -Alex --===============6859573762566553201==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue Mar 14 21:55:25 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 16:55:12 -0500 Message-ID: <6ab3663a-5b03-e353-e6c7-2477232fc691@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CdvAnWNFX6VWTrJDPeWoZA3z6A1HYwPjxl9nwlRxUCL2Hatgnzs?= =?utf-8?q?N8Kdc6fSPpJrZWaLKyCJoHtz0TqMkA8y2JHXxAjyEVQ1vdo1wWeaIseMI=3D=40gl?= =?utf-8?q?itchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9131266981451682045==" --===============9131266981451682045== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/14/2023 4:16 PM, Jonathan Chapman wrote: > There are other things that we've chosen not to run for the same basic=20 > reason, and others that won't get open sourced.=20 I will admit I am trending in that direction.=C2=A0 I put things as FLOSS=20 because I wanted the designs to outlast my involvement with the=20 community.=C2=A0 I thought if the design was open source and I wanted to or=20 had to depart (including the Great Departure), the designs would=20 continue to be available rather than disappear. But, so many people have=20 abused that idea.=C2=A0 Luckily, most of my stuff is not useful enough to=20 copy and sell online... Of course, not putting it out as open source infuriates folks as well,=20 especially those who believe in "right to repair" (I do as well, but=20 some people are pedantic about it and will not buy anything closed).=20 And, putting it out with a closed source license doesn't help, as people=20 still clone it, and they don't care about the legalities of it. > It's nice to support the designers in some capacity, but buying knockoffs f= uels the ecosystem that creates knockoffs. I'm waxing a bit pragmatic, I guess.=C2=A0 People gotta people, I figure. Jim --===============9131266981451682045==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Mar 14 22:23:23 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 15:23:13 -0700 Message-ID: <6b334699-8b54-ac0c-860e-5efdc88284f0@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <20230314214859.5eddbkruwzqfayys@stacey.r0tty.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6240392699303200711==" --===============6240392699303200711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/14/23 14:48, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote: > Let's face it, there is a sizable number of people who will never ever > buy a logic analyzer for north of $1000. Either because they can't > afford it or are too greedy. That is not lost revenue for the company. > Either those people buy a clone or they don't have a Saleae product, end > of story. The other alternative is to buy a used logic analyzer. Many times, these are available for pennies on the dollar. My HP 1663A cost me a grand total of $47 shipped. It was complete with pods, extra "grabbers" etc. Basically a device surplussed by a electronic test equipment rental outfit. Yes, it isn't new, but it has far more capabilities than I can use. For me setting up an LA is such a bother that I usually try to think things through, maybe using a 'scope to test things. For those problems that don't fit that mold, the LA is often the only tool to provide the answer. But that situation for me is pretty rare. --Chuck --===============6240392699303200711==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Mar 14 22:32:36 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 18:32:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0498951828440143597==" --===============0498951828440143597== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/14/2023 3:03 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > The cafeteria is open, there is a Starbucks and even a nice Italian across = the street if you want to treat yourself. On Wednesdays we have a demo of the= IBM 1401 at 3 pm, and before that the restoration team works on it from 10:3= 0 am on (it needs constant maintenance and repairs to keep it running). Just keep the temperature in the room down and it will be just fine.=C2=A0 :-) bill --===============0498951828440143597==-- From cclist@sytse.net Tue Mar 14 22:51:17 2023 From: Sytse van Slooten To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 23:51:08 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6b334699-8b54-ac0c-860e-5efdc88284f0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5990857041502272689==" --===============5990857041502272689== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 Mar 2023, at 23:23, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > On 3/14/23 14:48, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Let's face it, there is a sizable number of people who will never ever=20 >> buy a logic analyzer for north of $1000. Either because they can't=20 >> afford it or are too greedy. That is not lost revenue for the company. =20 >> Either those people buy a clone or they don't have a Saleae product, end=20 >> of story. >=20 > The other alternative is to buy a used logic analyzer. Many times, > these are available for pennies on the dollar. My HP 1663A cost me a > grand total of $47 shipped. It was complete with pods, extra "grabbers" > etc. Basically a device surplussed by a electronic test equipment rental > outfit. You don't get that option in Europe though. Haven't seen any of the better st= uff here, like, ever. I've stopped looking, because nothing turned up for yea= rs and years. At one point, I'd have considered selling multiple organs for o= ne of the later HP with all of the nice options - but I've learned to make do= what I have instead, mostly because nobody was selling. Logic analyzers are = brilliant if you know what is going wrong, and need to find proof that your t= heory is correct. But not necessarily for finding out the start of the proble= m - well, not for me at least, I can't speak for those who've had access to o= ne of those mythical HP things. About Saleae - nice physical design, but I'm not sure something with max 16 c= hannels merits the term 'logic analyzer'. And their stuff is way overpriced f= or what it is. Not that that makes it right to steal their design, their work= , their IP from them, obvs. But there are alternatives that are way cheaper a= nd more capable, and it seems like it is a business strategy kind of decision= for Saleae that they don't choose to compete on the technology front. If any= thing, I'm amazed that took them as far as it apparently has. -- Sytse --===============5990857041502272689==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Mar 15 00:05:04 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 19:04:56 -0500 Message-ID: <5a6f2dc4-07f1-3084-2a5a-6ff55e61bc10@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <20230314214859.5eddbkruwzqfayys@stacey.r0tty.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3122406628725590048==" --===============3122406628725590048== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/14/2023 4:48 PM, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote: > > * The main IC in a 16 channel Saleae LA is a Xilinx Spartan 6, The clones are of the older pre 2015 Cypress FX2 design, which was not easy to protect. I don't see any eBay listings for the newer stuff in clone format.  I do see Logic8/Logic16 clones for sale, but they are not the Xilinx variant. > * The Saleae host software doesn't attempt to validate that the hardware > it talks to is genuine even though that would be trivial to do as > well. When version 1.1.9 came out, they did just that, to try to protect the unit.  The backlash was incredible, since most of the clones had represented themselves as Saleae units, so the folks with now bricked units complained bitterly to Saleae.  They removed the check under pressure.  If you look at clone ads, you'll see 1.1.10+ as the app version, for exactly that reason. > * No import stop of clones or anything like that was attempted by the > company. I don't know how you would stop the import of clones.  The design is trivial and cannot be copyrighted (the specific PCB artwork could, but the clones never use that, they are much smaller and laid out differently. The controller is loaded from the PC, so I believe the clones didn't even need to pirate the SW. > * Listings on eBay, etc. of Saleae clones are advertised as "Saleae", > which could easily be stopped by the company, that has happened > thousands of times for other products. They seem reasonably successful.  I remember in mid 2010s, there were tons of listings.  Now, I see a single Logic16 (old Cypress-based clone) for $73 on eBay before I see actual used Logic16 Pro units.  But, I see a ton of Logic8 and Logic16 clones under generic names that are easy to identify as Logic clones. $9.00 (for 8 ch) to $50 (for 16). > Clones of Saleae devices are on the market since a long time. Saleae > brought out new hardware revisions since then, so the argument 'they > were taken by surprise' doesn't hold up. Is there a link where they said they were taken by surprise?  I think they were in the beginning, but that was in 2014.  If the quote is recent, I would agree, they've known for a while. > Though a knockoff Saleae LA won't make you end up in hell. I don't think I implied it would. I do have reservations about such a recommendation in general and how it could negatively affect this community, as people apply it to other products/projects. All that said, I will concede that the current Logic pricing is steep.  For the price of a 2023 Logic16Pro, I procured 2 complete 16XXX HP frames, made a fully loaded units with 2 function generators/3 333 MHz LA cards (204 channels)/100MHz DSO, and sold the extra 16500 frame with 2 100MHz+ cards onto to another community member.  Maybe Sigrok and a few of the less expensive 32/34 channel options is a better suggestion for the lower end option. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============3122406628725590048==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Wed Mar 15 01:42:45 2023 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 18:26:32 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6ab3663a-5b03-e353-e6c7-2477232fc691@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8648110871773533025==" --===============8648110871773533025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 14, 2023, at 2:55 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > On 3/14/2023 4:16 PM, Jonathan Chapman wrote: >> There are other things that we've chosen not to run for the same basic rea= son, and others that won't get open sourced.=20 >=20 > I will admit I am trending in that direction. I put things as FLOSS becaus= e I wanted the designs to outlast my involvement with the community. I thoug= ht if the design was open source and I wanted to or had to depart (including = the Great Departure), the designs would continue to be available rather than = disappear. But, so many people have abused that idea. Luckily, most of my st= uff is not useful enough to copy and sell online... If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else producing it isn't a k= nockoff, it's the system working as intended. -- Chris --===============8648110871773533025==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Mar 15 02:14:58 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 19:14:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55807B00D52E2763D74915EDEDBE9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5644874778100009903==" --===============5644874778100009903== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/14/2023 3:03 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > The cafeteria is open, there is a Starbucks and even a nice Italian across > the street if you want to treat yourself. On Wednesdays we have a demo of > the IBM 1401 at 3 pm, and before that the restoration team works on it from > 10:30 am on (it needs constant maintenance and repairs to keep it running). When I saw the 1401 at CHM, somehow it just seemed DIFFERENT than the one the college had had half a century ago. Then, I realized the the difference was that at the CHM one, everything was CLEAN, and it was without the pervasive smell of burnt oil from overheated items, and spills that hadn't been cleaned up. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5644874778100009903==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Mar 15 02:23:25 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 21:23:15 -0500 Message-ID: <3ff153f4-b44e-24d1-dabf-a5bfd2694469@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4489261541887948992==" --===============4489261541887948992== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/14/2023 8:26 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else producing it isn't a= knockoff, it's the system working as intended. > > -- Chris > Yep, naive on my part.=C2=A0 I would counter that if I had just published my = designs online with a commercial license, I doubt it would have made a=20 difference :-) Anymore, it seems people assume that if the files exist,=20 it's OK to copy and produce. It seems witholding some of the files/designs and/or sharing with a=20 trusted source who has permission to open source or otherwise publish it=20 after you are no longer interested in the thing is the only way to=20 accomplish my goal, at the expense of people who'd like to peruse the=20 internals for personal value or fix one. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============4489261541887948992==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Mar 15 02:57:38 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 02:57:18 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1629389125188629999==" --===============1629389125188629999== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else producing it isn't a= knockoff, it's the system working as intended. What is it when the design is open source, but they're not complying with the= terms of the license? That's what really bugs me, the "cost" of producing yo= ur own from one of our designs is attribution and releasing your design under= the same or a compatible license, but apparently that's too much to ask. Thanks, Jonathan --===============1629389125188629999==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Wed Mar 15 03:26:05 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 11:25:49 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SOZDXKO7QA8WVZFL@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6442339060342416731==" --===============6442339060342416731== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Be careful about throwing stones if you are living in a glass house. On Tue, 14 Mar 2023, 6:49 pm Peter Coghlan via cctalk, < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > There are some nice mixed signal oscilloscopes made by Rigol (Chinese) > at a > > very affordable price. > > > > Until just over a year ago, buying very afforadable Russian oil and gas > also > seemed like a great idea with no downsides compared to getting these > products > elsewhere. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > --===============6442339060342416731==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 15 03:55:18 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Persci 299 drives - park heads/lock? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 23:55:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8246956347087647980==" --===============8246956347087647980== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am working on an unknown status Persci 299 drive and one of the two drives is locked closed. Is this a "park" of some kind or is the drive broken? If it's a parked drive (only the drive 0 side) how do you unpark the drive? I can't seem to find any info on this. If I find anything I will post my findings. Thanks in advance Bill --===============8246956347087647980==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 15 05:16:09 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 22:15:47 -0700 Message-ID: <4B0FE2DD-2203-412B-9A54-8C77DEE1293F@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4103947567250258236==" --===============4103947567250258236== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Awesome. Thank you! I will be there tomorrow Wednesday.=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 14, 2023, at 12:03 AM, Curious Marc wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThe cafeteria is open, there is a Starbucks and even a nice Italia= n across the street if you want to treat yourself. On Wednesdays we have a de= mo of the IBM 1401 at 3 pm, and before that the restoration team works on it = from 10:30 am on (it needs constant maintenance and repairs to keep it runnin= g). I should be there. Come around and say hi!=20 > Google headquarters are up the road, worth a picture in front of the sign. = Of course a stop at Anchor Electronics in Santa Clara if you are interested i= n vintage components. The slightly underwhelming Intel Museum in Santa Clara = also. No more Weird Stuff, Halted and Excess Solutions unfortunately :-( > Marc >=20 >> On Mar 13, 2023, at 9:48 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFI truly appreciate all the suggestions that I received for my com= puter history museum visit this coming Wednesday including the food options a= nd the nearby areas. Some notes about the =E2=80=9Cold Silicon Valley=E2=80= =9D, the limited food options, and some nearby technology shops being gone is= sad, but it is what it is. It is all an outcome of the new generation and th= e disregard for the old. I guess the old Silicon Valley is is one big partial= museum, and the new are just the campuses of the big tech companies. Everyth= ing else is just now virtual. I will still make the best out of the visit. Ch= eers! >>=20 >> Thank you, again. =20 >>=20 >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >>=20 >>>> On Mar 12, 2023, at 9:28 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFHello. I am visiting the Computer History Museum in California n= ext week. I always wanted to check it out and spend a day there, but somethin= g else happens. Any recommendations of what is a must see at the museum and a= nything else classic computing nearby in one day only (March 15)?=20 >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Tarek Hoteit --===============4103947567250258236==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 15 05:20:13 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 22:19:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9127980623787004939==" --===============9127980623787004939== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 7:15=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On 3/14/2023 3:03 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > The cafeteria is open, there is a Starbucks and even a nice Italian > across > > the street if you want to treat yourself. On Wednesdays we have a demo > of > > the IBM 1401 at 3 pm, and before that the restoration team works on it > from > > 10:30 am on (it needs constant maintenance and repairs to keep it > running). > > When I saw the 1401 at CHM, somehow it just seemed DIFFERENT than the one > the college had had half a century ago. > > Then, I realized the the difference was that at the CHM one, everything > was CLEAN, and it was without the pervasive smell of burnt oil from > overheated items, and spills that hadn't been cleaned up. > Bonus Fun Fact: the address of the CHM is 1401 North Shoreline Boulevard. Sellam --===============9127980623787004939==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Mar 15 07:01:31 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 23:21:30 -0400 Message-ID: <2064a6ef-4e85-c2eb-5661-90a6e6dbfe84@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <5a6f2dc4-07f1-3084-2a5a-6ff55e61bc10@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1585246021063309829==" --===============1585246021063309829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been thinking about this discussion: I bought one of the cheap 8 channel units on Ebay and downloaded the Salee software. It works extremely well for debugging logic issues on my pdp8/L's but it has a few issues: The buffer size is miniscule, and I get data overruns at higher sample rates. It does not do analog signal analysis, only digital. So it's great for TTL logic, not so great for trying to figure out what's coming off the tape head on the TU58. So it can't work for everything, but it's an excellent introduction. My next step up will probably be the $500 8 channel unit, that can do analog and has a real buffer. So I wind up supporting the company anyway. CZ --===============1585246021063309829==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Mar 15 09:38:23 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 5110 external IO (was Re: Low cost logic analyzer) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 04:38:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7103233527809466161==" --===============7103233527809466161== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is easy since it is an I/O bus. The instructions are GETB, PUTB, STAT > and CTRL. In any case the corresponding control line is asserted. > This means, a PUTB will put the device address on the X/Y lines, the data > byte onto the Bus Out lines, and assert Put Strobe. > Oh yes, one interesting thing to note: the STAT instruction (usually to > get some status information from the device) will put the register > *number* onto the Bus Out lines. I think IBM did this to be able to select Alfred Arnold's AS assembler is working very good for with your mnemonics for PALM assembly. We debugged a few issues (including also that he supports the original IBM mnemonics - he had a few inconsistencies on those, but I think we got them all ironed out -- but in any case, I much prefer your mnemonics anyway). His newer AS build/updates as of this month should have all those fixes. I started preparing a library of assembly functions for basic things (like binary to decimal string conversion), and polling keyboard inputs - standard things I'd need to build up to the terminal program. Along the way, I got sidetracked into making this demo that I think is the first time anyone has showcased a special feature of the IBM 5110 character set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5ewb1BOgzE I got the DB25 pins wired up, and was going to start experimenting with those GETB, PUTB, CTRL and STAT opcodes. I don't have any actual serial IO card for the 5100 - but I figure I should be able to purely "bit bang" off the external IO in my own main-loop. It might only get 50 or 110 baud, but I'm fine with that -- anything to let me stream in some code without having to re-type it. Input would be the first goal: monitor the 8 data lines on the external pins, start writing one byte at a time to RWS (and just do something like press spacebar to toggle the writing). Then I use an MCU connected to those 8 data lines with some TBD timing (probably 330ohm resistors inline?). And I only need to support streaming in machine code (a binary produced by AS). That is, find some minimal bootloader (using GETB and CTRL?) to load a larger terminal program - then that terminal program should be able to interface with a WiModem ("RS232" device connected up with 3 pins). I'd be happy to just get the input loader working for starters, but I can't use the 5110 emulator for that and have to be hands on with the real system. That's the dream, anyway. My internal cassette deck on that system is still working, but that may not last forever (and in any case, I can't write new code from the PC onto a QIC tape in a format the 5110 understands). Note, I'm booked to go to VCF East this year, if anyone wants to talk 5100/5110 stuff. -Steve > --===============7103233527809466161==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Wed Mar 15 12:35:11 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:33:41 +0000 Message-ID: <4f3e25bac85741a98c369d7075fd1e23@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> In-Reply-To: <32AC007D-BFBD-4579-ABCA-6FEFC9C00400@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8937266947314908175==" --===============8937266947314908175== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A brief description of "built-in" FPGA logic analysers seems worthwhile, a va= luable if non-trivial option. Most FPGA vendors provide IP to implement in vivo logic analysers organically= in the FPGA fabric. Additionally, they provide a GUI to display / capture t= he data and to interactively configure qualifiers and triggering. The capabi= lities provided by AMD Xilinx, in Vivado, provide a good exemplar. https://docs.xilinx.com/r/en-US/ug936-vivado-tutorial-programming-debugging/U= sing-the-Vivado-Integrated-Logic-Analyzer https://www.xilinx.com/products/intellectual-property/ila.html https://www.xilinx.com/video/hardware/introduction-to-the-vivado-logic-analyz= er.html Pods such as the Digilent digital discovery, based on a Spartan-6 FPGA, menti= oned in my previous post typically use a USB host interface. The Vivado ILA = typically uses the (JTAG) programming link. Consequently, the commercial LA = pods and ILA technology are probably best viewed as cousins, interoperation m= ay be possible but is not a given. The standard use case for an ILA is during FPGA code (VHDL or Verilog) develo= pment, where the focus is on the internal FPGA logic; e.g. providing an execu= tion trace for a SIMD sequencer, for debug or verification. The use case Sys= te suggests is to connect a UUT to an FPGA (board) with the interest now in t= he external signals and logic; e.g. connecting an ADC EVB to an FPGA EVB to f= irstly inspect the interface signals and then exploit the data stream. Equal= ly, as Syste suggests, a suitable FPGA EVB could simply be employed as a logi= c analyser. The capability of the ILA will of course be bounded by the available resource= s and one's deviousness: - JTAG interface : in general, neither slow not fast - fast memory for acquisition and buffering : on a low end FPGA / SOC - 1 to = 2 Mbits of ~4 ns access time BRAM The "cost" of this "free" technology needs to be noted: - the FPGA EVB and JTAG interface will be relatively inexpensive - the FPGA vendors ILA IP and tools typically free - the XFU (exercise for User) elements are where the cost lies -- integrating UUT and FPGA EVB : modest effort / cost ? -- mastering Vivado, the ILA IP and block diagram configuration, VHDL/Verilog= , timing constraints, ... In summary, a useful capability is available but without FPGA expertise explo= itation would be difficult without a canned example Martin =3D=3D=3D From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 14 March 2023 14:40 I noticed the sigrok.org devices list mentions one that is open source hardwa= re, that sounds a bit like what Sytse was talking about. paul =3D=3D=3D=3D From: Sytse van Slooten via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 14 March 2023 12:33 Another option that I haven't seen mentioned: use the built-in logic analyzer= s that the fpga tool chains come with - you'd have to wire up an fpga and sam= ple the signals you need, but all the complexity of triggering, buffering and= displaying would be done by the tool chain.=20 -- Sytse =3D=3D=3D=3D From: Martin Bishop via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 14 March 2023 07:51 https://digilent.com/shop/digital-discovery-portable-usb-logic-analyzer-and-d= igital-pattern-generator/ 32 ch at 200 MS/s and pleasantly inexpensive If I was buying, I would conside= r trying one --===============8937266947314908175==-- From pbirkel@gmail.com Wed Mar 15 12:57:07 2023 From: pbirkel@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC DF03-AA Modem Documentation Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0400 Message-ID: <0cd501d9573d$a23c4260$e6b4c720$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4968819047072851756==" --===============4968819047072851756== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The DEC DF02 (300 Baud) and DF03 (300/1200 Baud) modems appear to be singularly lacking in online documentation. In the case of the DF03 those would be: EK-ODF03-IP - DF03 Illustrated Parts Breakdown EK-ODF03-PS - DF03 Modem Pocket Service Guide EK-ODF03-UG - DF03 Modem Users Guide Similarly for the DF02. (Note that the actual designations may use a zero rather than a capital letter O in the 4th position; references are inconsistent.) Does anyone have access to these documents? The only, and only slightly, useful technical documentation I've found are within the KC780 documentation (EK-KC780-TM-007_Jul84.pdf), which illustrates the required settings of the two pairs of DIP switches (or jumpers) on each of the two DF02/03 internal modules but doesn't define any of those settings. The functionality of the front panel push-button switches is not described either. Leads, experience, etc. appreciated, thank you, paul --===============4968819047072851756==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Wed Mar 15 14:22:28 2023 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 14:54:58 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CdvAnWNFX6VWTrJDPeWoZA3z6A1HYwPjxl9nwlRxUCL2Hatgnzs?= =?utf-8?q?N8Kdc6fSPpJrZWaLKyCJoHtz0TqMkA8y2JHXxAjyEVQ1vdo1wWeaIseMI=3D=40gl?= =?utf-8?q?itchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7906049407626512288==" --===============7906049407626512288== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 09:16:02PM +0000, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: [...] > It's nice to support the designers in some capacity, but buying knockoffs > fuels the ecosystem that creates knockoffs. With our stuff, it's never > been that a single knockoff operation eats our lunch, it's that there's a > zillion of them that run maybe 100 boards and disappear. Death by a > thousand cuts. They charge $1-5 less while running the cheapest possible > boards, stuffing with salvaged chips, etc. Meanwhile, we're having to pay > for runs of boards with hard gold plating and buy genuine parts from > Mouser. I'm not currently in the market for an XT-IDE--probably just as well as they seem to be out of stock---but this sort of product appeals to me and I'd buy one if I had an 8-bit ISA machine. $60 for the real deal is impulse-buy territory, and risking a knock-off to save $1-5 isn't worth it. However, I'd still much rather buy through AliExpress than the likes of Tindie, and it's only partly about the sticker price: AliExpress quotes an all-in price in euros including VAT and shipping, and give a delivery deadline, typically 14-30 days away, although I can choose to pay for a faster service. They take payment via iDeal and never see my card number. I pay the quoted amount and no more. The package typically arrives in the Netherlands within a fortnight, gets rubber-stamped through customs because AliExpress have prepaid the VAT on my behalf, and lands on my doorstep the following day. I know how long customs checks take because the package has tracking and I get frequent status updates. So: pay money and stuff turns up on time. This brings joy. Tindie quote a VAT-exclusive price (since it does not handle VAT at all) and shipping information is buried in their awful interface. AFAICT, it's $25 for the XT-IDE, or possibly that's just for a bare XT-IDE PCB, sent via an USPS's cheapest untracked service which takes about a month to get to the Netherlands. When it arrives, I'll be shaken down for some random amount of VAT and handling fees before the package is released from customs, and this adds a further week's delay even if I pay promptly. So: pay a lot more money, then wait indefinitely before paying even more money, then wait some more for stuff to turn up. The lack of tracking or deadline causes worry that it will never turn up. This does not bring joy. The greatest enemy of US small businesses is US business practices, particularly when it comes to shipping. If you impose unnecessary extra unpredictable expense and inconvenience which tells the rest of the world you don't really want to do business with them, don't act surprised when the rest of the world takes their custom elsewhere. --===============7906049407626512288==-- From ethan@757.org Wed Mar 15 15:05:59 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 11:05:54 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8985742574428716185==" --===============8985742574428716185== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else producing it > isn't a knockoff, it's the system working as intended. > -- Chris I remember a talk by LadyADA of Adafruit at HOPE about starting a company making open source hardware and success and all that. It's easy if you have the marketing and big revenue stream, but eventually people will copy the designs. Also there are cases where multiple people have the same idea, I have projects that I started and didn't finish but I bet if I look around someone else has made the same thing and filled in the gaps. The first XT-IDE I ever came across was on I think a Chinese site called Seed Studio. From memory it was a single CPLD (I think?) and EPROM, it was a pretty sexy design but I've never seen them in the wild. I reached out to them and they said they would produce them. Later I found out about other ones and own some of the Glitchworks ones and have bought a few of the TexElec ones for special laptops (Tandy 1400FD / Yamaha C1.) Also, big HP versus USB logic analyzer. I had one of those old HP logic analyzers a while ago and it was really slow. Way easier to use the USB ones when it comes to portability and software speed. Plus easier to store captures, share data without a GPIB plotter, etc. I have one of the DSLogic ones and it does what I need, and as I recally there is a hack where you can solder in a SMD DRAM IC and expand the memory (upgrading it DIY to a higher model) if one cares to. Don't know if it's a clone, didn't research it that hard. Sold the HP years ago, never up-paid for the Rigol with the logic analyzer functions since the USB ones were so much cheaper in comparison. -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============8985742574428716185==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Mar 15 15:48:07 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Persci 299 drives - park heads/lock? Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:47:58 -0500 Message-ID: <0e63809c-f9e9-321e-0b37-e6a491c024c5@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4221488206493422499==" --===============4221488206493422499== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/14/23 22:55, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I am working on an unknown status Persci 299 drive and one of the two > drives is locked closed. Is this a "park" of some kind or is the drive > broken? If it's a parked drive (only the drive 0 side) how do you unpark > the drive? I can't seem to find any info on this. If I find anything I > will post my findings. This is a dual 8" floppy drive with linear voice coil head positioning?  I used to have one of those. There are two 12V (I think) gear motors that operate the hub clamp arm.  The logic is very simple, press the button on the front, the motor should unclamp the hub, press a disk in the slot, the motor will clamp the hub.  Check the switch in the floppy slot to see if it thinks the floppy is in.  But, it seems anyway that the button has to take precedence over the floppy in sensor.  One possibility is that the motor has failed, you can unplug the motor and apply 12 V to it and see if it moves.  Otherwise, the full-bridge driver has gone bad.  Or, mayvbe just a bad connection where the motor plugs into the board. Jon --===============4221488206493422499==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 15 16:26:39 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Persci 299 drives - park heads/lock? Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:26:23 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0e63809c-f9e9-321e-0b37-e6a491c024c5@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6959339633938012926==" --===============6959339633938012926== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:48=E2=80=AFAM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 3/14/23 22:55, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I am working on an unknown status Persci 299 drive and one of the two > > drives is locked closed. Is this a "park" of some kind or is the drive > > broken? If it's a parked drive (only the drive 0 side) how do you unpark > > the drive? I can't seem to find any info on this. If I find anything I > > will post my findings. > > This is a dual 8" floppy drive with linear voice coil head > positioning? I used to have one of those. > > There are two 12V (I think) gear motors that operate the hub > clamp arm. The logic is very simple, press the button on > the front, the motor should unclamp the hub, press a disk in > the slot, the motor will clamp the hub. Check the switch in > the floppy slot to see if it thinks the floppy is in. But, > it seems anyway that the button has to take precedence over > the floppy in sensor. One possibility is that the motor has > failed, you can unplug the motor and apply 12 V to it and > see if it moves. Otherwise, the full-bridge driver has gone > bad. Or, mayvbe just a bad connection where the motor plugs > into the board. > > Jon > > I spent time with the drive, I could not find a clamp or screw that was holding the drive closed, I had never seen that found in a Persci drive before, but I guess that's the problem, bad motor holding it closed. Kinda weird but I can work from there. BIll --===============6959339633938012926==-- From ebruchez@gmail.com Wed Mar 15 16:37:52 2023 From: ebruchez@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:37:47 +0000 Message-ID: <167889826787.1516385.11348028535081354583@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1574111116725965972==" --===============1574111116725965972== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just wanted to say that the CHM is great. The exhibits are wonderfully done= , and yes, don't miss the 1401 demo if you can. But there is a lot, starting = with Hollerith machines and ENIAC panels all the way to more contemporary ite= ms. -Erik --===============1574111116725965972==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 15 16:57:54 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Visiting the computer history museum (chm) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 09:57:34 -0700 Message-ID: <1906D78A-2BF5-45F2-AE32-4319F0E74800@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: <167889826787.1516385.11348028535081354583@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6628817971358951153==" --===============6628817971358951153== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Will do ! Thank you=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 15, 2023, at 9:37 AM, ebruchez--- via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI just wanted to say that the CHM is great. The exhibits are wonde= rfully done, and yes, don't miss the 1401 demo if you can. But there is a lot= , starting with Hollerith machines and ENIAC panels all the way to more conte= mporary items. >=20 > -Erik --===============6628817971358951153==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Mar 15 17:17:39 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:17:33 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8822692105224593620==" --===============8822692105224593620== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/15/2023 10:05 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else producing it >> isn't a knockoff, it's the system working as intended. >>  -- Chris > > I remember a talk by LadyADA of Adafruit at HOPE about starting a > company making open source hardware and success and all that. It's > easy if you have the marketing and big revenue stream, but eventually > people will copy the designs. Also there are cases where multiple > people have the same idea, I have projects that I started and didn't > finish but I bet if I look around someone else has made the same thing > and filled in the gaps. My FLOSS experience has not been all bad.  Many linux distributions include tcpser or make it a package to install, and I have no doubt the OSS nature of it influenced that.  I've created lots of software that others have forked, improved, and folded back in.  I'm always appreciative. The same has happened with hardware designs.  And, if someone takes the files, modifies the design for a different use case, I actually appreciate that.  One can only itch so many scratches at once, and knowing that there are derived options for other use cases is a good feeling. > Also, big HP versus USB logic analyzer. I had one of those old HP > logic analyzers a while ago and it was really slow. Way easier to use > the USB ones when it comes to portability and software speed. Plus > easier to store captures, share data without a GPIB plotter, etc. I'll agree the HP is not my first go to when I want to debug something.  But, I found I had two distinct LA needs.  One was a spot or low quantity need, where 8-32 channels provided plenty of capability and simple triggers were fine (watch for a falling edge, etc.)  But, the other was 40-80 lines (full address and data busses for multiple busses, along with control signals) and complex triggering was needed (start tracing when address1 = $dfea and address2 = $00ea, etc, R/W low, Phi2 high, DMA low, the second time this occurs). At least when I checked, USB options providing those features were far out of my price range. But, take nothing I've said as dissing the USB options.  I literally have a unit in my carry on bag, along with some leads, since you never know when a bit of LA access will quickly help someone. It's the same with the scope situation (well, in my case, it's backwards).  I *love* my Tek2465 and I'm jsut so comfy firing it up and scoping a signal of interest.  But, it's not portable, so it stays on the bench.  I bought a Siglent1202 when they were too cheap to pass up (at Hamvention a few years back, show special), and it offers a lot of cool features the 2465 doesn't offer.  It's also more portable.  And, recently the Hantek 1070A was on sale at too good a price to pass up, so I picked one up. Hantek is awesome ti throw in the box for shows, in case someone needs a scope. Siglent sits on the bench and is used for capturing glitches and such, and the Tek is my comfy scope I use otherwise.  Thus, I trend to use the old school option, but I have the newer tech available since it offers advantages in some cases.  That said, I may sell teh Siglent/Hantek combo and look for a 200MHz dual channel USB scope with a built in screen (requiring a PC to read the trace is not always best use) Jim --===============8822692105224593620==-- From tpisek@pobox.com Wed Mar 15 20:36:48 2023 From: Todd Pisek To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Solaris Internals & Performance books Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 15:36:38 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5143695596090990173==" --===============5143695596090990173== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I no longer have a use for the following 2 books. Free for the taking. Solaris Internals: Solaris 10 and Opensolaris Solaris Performance and tools Email me at: tpisek at pobox dot com --===============5143695596090990173==-- From tpisek@pobox.com Wed Mar 15 22:24:15 2023 From: Todd Pisek To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Solaris books claimed Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:16:52 -0500 Message-ID: <48160671-B52E-4F0B-89B6-665D087E4A3E@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2907677884560230533==" --===============2907677884560230533== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They have a new home --===============2907677884560230533==-- From cc@alderson.users.panix.com Wed Mar 15 23:02:09 2023 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:02:05 -0400 Message-ID: <4PcQrY1FpqzfYm@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <7w356d2jqj.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3619166025190847471==" --===============3619166025190847471== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Still catching up. > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 06:39:16 +0000 > From: Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk > I believe the term minicomputer was first applied to the PDP-8. It was kind > of retroactively applied going back to the PDP-1. Whether the PDP-10 is a > mini is sometimes hotly debated. IBM people say no, DEC peole say yes. Lars, you have that backwards. DEC people *know* that the PDP-10 et seq. were mainframes (with the single exception of the DECSYSTEM-2020 office computer), while IBMers don't think anything not built by the Mother Ship is a mainframe (if it was build after the System/360 announcement, which came 3 weeks after the DEC announcement of the PDP-6, also a mainframe). Rich --===============3619166025190847471==-- From cc@alderson.users.panix.com Wed Mar 15 23:11:04 2023 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:55:55 -0400 Message-ID: <4PcQjR3cSHzfYm@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8260836117657690637==" --===============8260836117657690637== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jumping in late because the list blew up so badly on this topic. Yes, others have already commented on these things, but I'll add my US$0.02 worth anyway. > Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:00:05 -0600 > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > Actually, to answer my own question: if "main frame" refers to the actual > framing... well the PDP-1, PDP-10, PDP-10 were minicomputers and still > required a lot of metal "framing" to set up. So, can't they be considered > mainframes? Don't be fooled by the naming convention of a single computer manufacturer who was getting around GAO rules about computers. Before the coining of the term "minicomputer", most systems from Digital Equipment Corporation were classifi= ed as "small computers". This nomenclature covers the PDP-1, the PDP-4/7/9/15, and the PDP-5/8 (-8, -8i/l, -8e/f/m, -8A). However, the PDP-6 was marketed into the same customer space as IBM and the Seven Dwarfs (Burroughs, Univac, CDC, NCR, Honeywell, RCA, and GE), which became the BUNCH after RCA and GE sold their computer divisions to other members of the group. The PDP-6 were advertised as a multiuser system which featured built-in timesharing (an extra cost add-on feature of some of the others at the time) as well as batch processing. It supported large disks and drums, high speed printers and card reader/punches, and strings of magnetic tape drives. It required a staff of professional operators and systems programmers to run. By all measures, the PDP-6 was a 1964 mainframe computer. The PDP-10 was a reimplementation of the PDP-6 using a safer technology (the = -6 turned out to be fragile, and nearly bankrupted the company). The engineering for the -10 was done as a skunkworks project, and the mainframe nature of the system was hidden from Ken Olsen, the CEO/founder, but customers were not fooled and recognized it as a mainframe. > (another notion is that mainframes are "multi-user" -- most early > microcomputers were not multi-user, as they just barely supported the needs > of one user; I'm not sure if the very first minicomputers were multi-user?) Early mainframes were single user, in the sense that only one program could be run at a time. Spooling of jobs was invented to alleviate the time "wasted" = in having operators set up and reconfigure jobs, but it was still a one-at-a-time thing. Timesharing was an extra cost add-on based on research systems at places like MIT. The very first minicomputers were indeed single-user--but see below. > The term minicomputer has always been awkward to me -- "mini" in my head > just means something smaller than me, which most minicomputers aren't (but > they are much smaller than a building). But to say "mainframe" when > showing a minicomputer then necessitates some explanation... Can't win :( The term "minicomputer" was marketing speak: The first computer to receive t= he appellation was the PDP-8/e, which was the third generation of the PDP-8 fami= ly (where the PDP-5 is "generation zero"). The first generation PDP-8 fit into the back of a VW convertible (a famous marketing photo); the third would fit = on the passenger side front seat. It came out at a time when the miniskirt was = in full bloom, and everything in the marketing world was "Mini! Mini! Mini!"--ev= en when it wasn't. BTW, the PDP-8/i (second generation) *did* have an extra cost option to be a multiuser timesharing system, with an operating system called TSS-8. It was created by the engineers who built the PDP-10, because they wanted small syst= em users to have access to the cool features of that mainframe. (I was told this by one of the designers of the PDP-10, Bob Clements, who also worked on TSS-8= ). Rich --===============8260836117657690637==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Mar 15 23:32:35 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:32:25 -0400 Message-ID: <944D8AE1-43A8-404B-B251-06625B1C5492@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <4PcQjR3cSHzfYm@panix5.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0646376986060718666==" --===============0646376986060718666== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 15, 2023, at 6:55 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... >> (another notion is that mainframes are "multi-user" -- most early >> microcomputers were not multi-user, as they just barely supported the needs >> of one user; I'm not sure if the very first minicomputers were multi-user= ?) >=20 > Early mainframes were single user, in the sense that only one program could= be > run at a time. Spooling of jobs was invented to alleviate the time "wasted= " in > having operators set up and reconfigure jobs, but it was still a one-at-a-t= ime > thing. Timesharing was an extra cost add-on based on research systems at > places like MIT. Apart from spooling, which uncouples slow I/O from execution, there is also "= multiprogramming", which means being able to run more than one job concurrent= ly. Timesharing does that, of course, but I think multiprogramming was inten= ded to refer to batch systems that did so. An early example is the famous THE operating system: it spools all I/O and su= pports three concurrent jobs (two unrestricted and one limited to "small jobs= "). It has a number of interesting structural innovations, like a hierarchic= al design where details are handled in one layer and thereby no longer matter= to the layers above. Also semaphores, which it uses throughout, both for in= ternal synchronization and to synchronize with DMA hardware. paul --===============0646376986060718666==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Mar 15 23:40:28 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:40:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4PcQjR3cSHzfYm@panix5.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4336806009182859266==" --===============4336806009182859266== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 4:11 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The term "minicomputer" was marketing speak: The first computer to > receive the > appellation was the PDP-8/e, which was the third generation of the PDP-8 > family > (where the PDP-5 is "generation zero"). The first generation PDP-8 fit > into > the back of a VW convertible (a famous marketing photo); the third would > fit on > the passenger side front seat. It came out at a time when the miniskirt > was in > full bloom, and everything in the marketing world was "Mini! Mini! > Mini!"--even > when it wasn't. This, above all other explanations, rings the most true. I remember when the internet and e-mail became all the rage in the late 1990s, everything was eThis and eThat. And when Apple coined the iPhone, everything started to become iThis and iThat. So it makes complete sense that in the era of mini-everything, someone in the computer industry would grab onto the mini-zeitgeist. Thanks for the contributions to the discussion, Rich. Sellam --===============4336806009182859266==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Mar 15 23:46:52 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:46:43 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3COe-IZ2bPdYu=5FOqfDpSfdTWaQtvHRAItPaaZnJPtoX-qL8xCH?= =?utf-8?q?-PA89b57BdkMi7FsRWBFCnD9=5FHHcSElqlHJ-SedZAzJqCHgb00oIwVLdmTI=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0753122442134995598==" --===============0753122442134995598== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 14, 2023, at 10:57 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else producing it isn't = a knockoff, it's the system working as intended. >=20 > What is it when the design is open source, but they're not complying with t= he terms of the license? That's what really bugs me, the "cost" of producing = your own from one of our designs is attribution and releasing your design und= er the same or a compatible license, but apparently that's too much to ask. >=20 > Thanks, > Jonathan You're talking about GPL or equivalent there -- for which the FSF has at time= s been the enforcer. BSD style licenses require next to nothing of people co= pying (in particular, they don't require releasing the derived work). Personally I'm partial to BSD style licenses, though some of my open source w= ork was originally licensed under GPL. (I may change that at some point if I= want to bother.) That means I'm accepting the possibility that someone coul= d copy what I did and sell it as a closed product. Fine, so be it (that does= n't close what I did, of course). paul --===============0753122442134995598==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Mar 15 23:56:24 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:56:09 -0700 Message-ID: <45AC19EC-000F-476B-8CAF-600CCA61F701@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <4PcQjR3cSHzfYm@panix5.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9108921874854525070==" --===============9108921874854525070== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 15, 2023, at 3:55 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The term "minicomputer" was marketing speak: The first computer to receive= the > appellation was the PDP-8/e, which was the third generation of the PDP-8 fa= mily > (where the PDP-5 is "generation zero"). The first generation PDP-8 fit into > the back of a VW convertible (a famous marketing photo); the third would fi= t on > the passenger side front seat. It came out at a time when the miniskirt wa= s in > full bloom, and everything in the marketing world was "Mini! Mini! Mini!"--= even > when it wasn=E2=80=99t. The first time I saw a PDP-8 was in the Museum of American History in Washing= ton DC in 1990. Along with a straight-8, they had that marketing photo. Zane --===============9108921874854525070==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Mar 16 00:23:35 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:23:30 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <944D8AE1-43A8-404B-B251-06625B1C5492@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7346276291908517100==" --===============7346276291908517100== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/15/23 18:32, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Apart from spooling, which uncouples slow I/O from execution, there is also= "multiprogramming", which means being able to run more than one job concurre= ntly. Timesharing does that, of course, but I think multiprogramming was int= ended to refer to batch systems that did so. > Yes, the IBM 709x ran in single-job fashion.=C2=A0 I don't think=20 it had interrupts, so breaking off one program to schedule=20 another was not possible.=C2=A0 Also, it had no memory=20 protection.=C2=A0 We had a 7094 at Washington University in the=20 late 1960s, and it was the main computer resource on=20 campus.=C2=A0 When the moved up to a 360/50, they were able to=20 benefit from multiprogramming, and got a boost in=20 throughput, although the 7094 was QUITE a bit faster than=20 the 360/50. Jon --===============7346276291908517100==-- From bob@jfcl.com Thu Mar 16 01:05:00 2023 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Power supply for DEC VK100 GIGI? Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:54:49 -0700 Message-ID: <000601d957a1$e9946cf0$bcbd46d0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6632909454295652448==" --===============6632909454295652448== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A friend gave me a DEC VK100 (aka GiGi) recently. It's in really nice shape, but it is missing the power supply. Before I try to kludge something up with an ATX supply, I thought I'd ask if anybody knows where I might find an official replacement. Thanks, Bob --===============6632909454295652448==-- From drb@msu.edu Thu Mar 16 01:53:46 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Power supply for DEC VK100 GIGI? Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 21:53:42 -0400 Message-ID: <20230316015342.B8DAB47FC24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <000601d957a1$e9946cf0$bcbd46d0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7026310804453542639==" --===============7026310804453542639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A friend gave me a DEC VK100 (aka GiGi) recently. It's in really nice > shape, but it is missing the power supply. Before I try to kludge > something up with an ATX supply, I thought I'd ask if anybody knows > where I might find an official replacement. The board in the supply is an Astec, so might be findable other ways than just "the GIGI supply", but you probably don't have any of the fan, switch / plug assembly, or bent sheet metal either, I bet. Photo here: https://yagi.h-net.org/gigi_ps.jpg De --===============7026310804453542639==-- From bob@jfcl.com Thu Mar 16 02:24:50 2023 From: bob@jfcl.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Power supply for DEC VK100 GIGI? Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 02:24:47 +0000 Message-ID: <167893348716.1516385.17280948859508467601@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <20230316015342.B8DAB47FC24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6311360414783002470==" --===============6311360414783002470== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the picture. AFAIK this supply wasn't used in anything other than= the VK100 so that's the only source for a direct replacement. Kludging something up with a modern supply looks fairly easy; there's plent= y of room in there, but it will be ugly. Don't know what I'll do about the f= an, but the VK100 logic itself probably doesn't need a fan so whatever is bui= lt into the ATX will be enough. --===============6311360414783002470==-- From bob@jfcl.com Thu Mar 16 02:25:51 2023 From: bob@jfcl.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Power supply for DEC VK100 GIGI? Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 02:25:46 +0000 Message-ID: <167893354610.1516385.3788740696535936664@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <20230316015342.B8DAB47FC24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1000762819728829135==" --===============1000762819728829135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable P.S. Oh, and no - I don't have the subchassis for the supply, nor the fan, s= witch, IEC inlet or any of that fancy stuff. --===============1000762819728829135==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Thu Mar 16 02:35:36 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Power supply for DEC VK100 GIGI? Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:35:20 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167893354610.1516385.3788740696535936664@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1052037058410272950==" --===============1052037058410272950== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 7:25=E2=80=AFPM bob--- via cctalk wrote: > > P.S. Oh, and no - I don't have the subchassis for the supply, nor the fan,= switch, IEC inlet or any of that fancy stuff. Maybe something like a MEAN WELL RPT-60B open frame power supply would be easier to fit into the enclosure than an ATX power supply. Around $23 new at Mouser. --===============1052037058410272950==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Mar 16 02:51:46 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:46:08 -0700 Message-ID: <2addddcc-fcc9-dcf9-2273-e2a9d234b035@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6013315386319749081==" --===============6013315386319749081== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > On 3/15/23 18:32, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Apart from spooling, which uncouples slow I/O from execution, there is > also "multiprogramming", which means being able to run more than one > job concurrently.  Timesharing does that, of course, but I think > multiprogramming was intended to refer to batch systems that did so. > Where would you put JOSS? (1963) running on Johnniac? --===============6013315386319749081==-- From drb@msu.edu Thu Mar 16 02:57:34 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Power supply for DEC VK100 GIGI? Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 22:57:30 -0400 Message-ID: <20230316025731.02BD047FF0D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: <167893348716.1516385.17280948859508467601@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8778594762826210375==" --===============8778594762826210375== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Kludging something up with a modern supply looks fairly easy; there's > plenty of room in there, but it will be ugly. Don't know what I'll > do about the fan, but the VK100 logic itself probably doesn't need a > fan so whatever is built into the ATX will be enough. At least the ATX won't be full of RIFA caps? De --===============8778594762826210375==-- From cube1@charter.net Thu Mar 16 12:04:13 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 07:03:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6480974393861900654==" --===============6480974393861900654== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The 709x had data channels which ran asynchronously, and generated channel tr= aps =E2=80=94 i.e. interrupts. I don=E2=80=99t think it had a, say, 60Hz clo= ck, but I/O interrupts would allow a certain basic level of multiprogramming.= The IBM 1410 also had I/O interrupts, and even had a rudimentary optional t= eleprocessing supervisor. IBM turned some 1410s into a basic message switchi= ng system. Sent from my iPad > On Mar 15, 2023, at 19:23, Jon Elson via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 3/15/23 18:32, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> Apart from spooling, which uncouples slow I/O from execution, there is als= o "multiprogramming", which means being able to run more than one job concurr= ently. Timesharing does that, of course, but I think multiprogramming was in= tended to refer to batch systems that did so. >>=20 > Yes, the IBM 709x ran in single-job fashion. I don't think it had interrup= ts, so breaking off one program to schedule another was not possible. Also, = it had no memory protection. We had a 7094 at Washington University in the l= ate 1960s, and it was the main computer resource on campus. When the moved u= p to a 360/50, they were able to benefit from multiprogramming, and got a boo= st in throughput, although the 7094 was QUITE a bit faster than the 360/50. >=20 > Jon >=20 --===============6480974393861900654==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Thu Mar 16 15:06:06 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 23:05:41 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3163919952670045075==" --===============3163919952670045075== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FSF does not enforce anything. I repeatedly begged for help with Desktop CYBER which was GPL licensed and they did not even bother to reply. Tom Hunter On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 7:46 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mar 14, 2023, at 10:57 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else producing it > isn't a knockoff, it's the system working as intended. > > > > What is it when the design is open source, but they're not complying > with the terms of the license? That's what really bugs me, the "cost" of > producing your own from one of our designs is attribution and releasing > your design under the same or a compatible license, but apparently that's > too much to ask. > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > You're talking about GPL or equivalent there -- for which the FSF has at > times been the enforcer. BSD style licenses require next to nothing of > people copying (in particular, they don't require releasing the derived > work). > > Personally I'm partial to BSD style licenses, though some of my open > source work was originally licensed under GPL. (I may change that at some > point if I want to bother.) That means I'm accepting the possibility that > someone could copy what I did and sell it as a closed product. Fine, so be > it (that doesn't close what I did, of course). > > paul > > --===============3163919952670045075==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Mar 16 15:14:12 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 11:14:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2140390671436263483==" --===============2140390671436263483== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe they only do for GPL items of their own. paul > On Mar 16, 2023, at 11:05 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >=20 > FSF does not enforce anything. I repeatedly begged for help with Desktop > CYBER which was GPL licensed and they did not even bother to reply. >=20 > Tom Hunter --===============2140390671436263483==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Thu Mar 16 15:24:38 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 15:24:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2431669167907438963==" --===============2431669167907438963== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > FSF does not enforce anything. I repeatedly begged for help with Desktop > CYBER which was GPL licensed and they did not even bother to reply. I'm told by a friend at Red Hat that RH/IBM has a department for that kind of= thing and can/will provide legal help for outside projects. Thanks, Jonathan --===============2431669167907438963==-- From romietoo9ibi@xx.vu Thu Mar 16 16:31:55 2023 From: Alexander Huemer To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 17:31:44 +0100 Message-ID: <20230316163144.ndz3f2j23emku52j@stacey.r0tty.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7360502939361008335==" --===============7360502939361008335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > FSF does not enforce anything. https://gpl-violations.org/ They do though. -Alex --===============7360502939361008335==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Thu Mar 16 16:41:55 2023 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 16:41:47 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4347652707471166599==" --===============4347652707471166599== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I remember when the internet and e-mail became all the rage in the late 1990= s, everything was eThis and eThat. And when Apple coined the iPhone, everyth= ing started to become iThis and iThat. The "i"XXXX thing predated apple's use of it and certainly predated the iphon= e. Internet services ompanies like iVillage and many others were using it. So= me IBM internet software also used this but I can't recall the names. But sur= ely Apple jumped on the bandwagon with their iMac colorful cube thing in 1998= or thereabouts.=20 But in general, I agree with the sentiment. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos --===============4347652707471166599==-- From tpisek@pobox.com Thu Mar 16 17:56:30 2023 From: Todd Pisek To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] SmallTalk 80 books available Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 12:56:20 -0500 Message-ID: <94619F8D-16D9-43DE-BB8B-3462F214266D@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2298564411166707997==" --===============2298564411166707997== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have the following books free to a good home: SmallTalk-80: The Language & its Implementation SmallTalk-80: The Interactive Programming Environment SmallTalk-80: Bits of History, Words of Advice Email tpisek at pobox dot com --===============2298564411166707997==-- From tpisek@pobox.com Thu Mar 16 19:15:15 2023 From: Todd Pisek To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] SmallTalk books claimed Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 14:15:06 -0500 Message-ID: <83C80250-40E5-473C-8B2E-AFE1B6B706FB@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0177941819181203068==" --===============0177941819181203068== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit They’re gone --===============0177941819181203068==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Fri Mar 17 01:25:53 2023 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 21:25:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230316163144.ndz3f2j23emku52j@stacey.r0tty.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6560682265083476440==" --===============6560682265083476440== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:32 PM Alexander Huemer via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > FSF does not enforce anything. > > https://gpl-violations.org/ > They do though. > > -Alex > Go to 'News' on that site and the last news about an enforcement action was from 2013. If you actually want to pursue GPL violations, especially if it's related to a non-FSF sponsored project, you'll have better luck with the EFF or appealing to someone like Popehat/Ken White to help find some *pro bono * representation. KJ --===============6560682265083476440==-- From shumaker@att.net Fri Mar 17 02:02:42 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: List migration Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 19:02:34 -0700 Message-ID: <22d95bbc-aa28-e0ac-3652-d4c40365fc2a@att.net> In-Reply-To: <20220711053836.B91B93FBF07@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2440809150688532020==" --===============2440809150688532020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings sir! Who can I email to inquire about being rejected from the listserver as spam? Steve On 7/10/22 10:38 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Friends, > > The process of migrating the cctalk and cctech mailing lists to a new > host in Chicago is underway. This evening, I've moved the list mail > handling to the new server, and this message will be the first live > test. Assuming this works, you shouldn't have to change anything to > post to the list. > > The green web pages, the old "pipermail" list archives, and web access > to archives of new postings from this point still require a little work, > which I hope to complete in the next day or two. I will eventually > import the old pipermail archives into the new posting archive, but that > may take a little longer. > > The new hosting is provided by the Chicago Classic Computing group. > > Many thanks to Jay West for hosting the lists for 20 years! > > /Dennis Boone --===============2440809150688532020==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 17 02:14:13 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 19:14:02 -0700 Message-ID: <0bdbd7e3-cfa4-e31d-6161-51c46db56772@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3115699019766053818==" --===============3115699019766053818== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/15/23 17:23, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Yes, the IBM 709x ran in single-job fashion.  I don't think it had > interrupts, so breaking off one program to schedule another was not > possible.  Also, it had no memory protection.  We had a 7094 at > Washington University in the late 1960s, and it was the main computer > resource on campus.  When the moved up to a 360/50, they were able to > benefit from multiprogramming, and got a boost in throughput, although > the 7094 was QUITE a bit faster than the 360/50. Interrupts with IBM were a "if you need them, we have them". For example, the 1800 (industrial version of the 1130) and the 1710 (industrial version of the 1620) both had realtime clocks and interrupts. I find it interesting, tracing the evolution of Seymour Cray's thinking from the CDC 160A through the Cray 2. One cannot really understand, for example the thinking behind the 7600 without knowing the 6600 and its predecessors. The CDC 1604 (1959 (certainly had interrupts, both internal and external, but I do not believe it had memory protection. It did have a console loudspeaker driven by a 3-bit DAC, however. The CDC 3000 series (1962) had an interrupt capability as well as memory protection and realtime clock. When you get to the CDC 6000 era, the question of interrupts is interesting. Certainly the PPUs didn't have interrupt capability, but the CPU could be exchange-jumped by a PPU (usually PP0) to provide task-switching on demand. In general, however, CPU programs did not implement interrupt-handling as such. It is clear that Seymour initially intended most OS functions to be distributed among the PPs. I do believe that he abandoned that line of thought when it came to the 7600 and beyond. The dominant 7600 OS, SCOPE 2, was an interesting combination of privilege levels and overlapping storage protection. 7600 PPUs could not host an OS because they were confined to fixed buffer addresses in SCM. The 7600 PPs are pretty much confined to I/O. For whatever it's worth, --Chuck --===============3115699019766053818==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Mar 17 02:29:27 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: List migration Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 22:29:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <22d95bbc-aa28-e0ac-3652-d4c40365fc2a@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2571275934246194254==" --===============2571275934246194254== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you everyone. I think installing the pipermail list program on the new host, just to serve as an archive function but not turn on the mailer function would be the easiest way to do it. Translating or transferring to some other platform would be a PITA Bill On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 10:02 PM steve shumaker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings sir! > Who can I email to inquire about being rejected from the listserver as > spam? > > Steve > > On 7/10/22 10:38 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > Friends, > > > > The process of migrating the cctalk and cctech mailing lists to a new > > host in Chicago is underway. This evening, I've moved the list mail > > handling to the new server, and this message will be the first live > > test. Assuming this works, you shouldn't have to change anything to > > post to the list. > > > > The green web pages, the old "pipermail" list archives, and web access > > to archives of new postings from this point still require a little work, > > which I hope to complete in the next day or two. I will eventually > > import the old pipermail archives into the new posting archive, but that > > may take a little longer. > > > > The new hosting is provided by the Chicago Classic Computing group. > > > > Many thanks to Jay West for hosting the lists for 20 years! > > > > /Dennis Boone > > --===============2571275934246194254==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Fri Mar 17 02:38:31 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 22:38:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4ae50af9-45f3-45c6-11ef-3622661d117e@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8651130851504938003==" --===============8651130851504938003== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 5:05 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > This has been around the block: > > You can lose a screw in a micro. > You can lose a screwdriver in a mini. > You can get lost in a mainframe. We had an Amdahl in the middle of a multi-thousand-square-foot computer room (one of several) at work 25 years ago. I do not know/remember the model number but it was made of up several cabinets not in a line. It had such a convoluted layout that you could literally stand in the "middle" of it and not see outside. If you stood in exactly the right spot, the blank panels lined up and made the visual appearance of a box with no exits. You _could_ get lost in that one, as long as you didn't take half a step away. -ethan --===============8651130851504938003==-- From romietoo9ibi@xx.vu Fri Mar 17 07:13:20 2023 From: Alexander Huemer To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 08:13:03 +0100 Message-ID: <20230317071303.cfia44gjingktw23@stacey.r0tty.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9046009702443560540==" --===============9046009702443560540== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 09:25:31PM -0400, Ken Seefried wrote: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:32 PM Alexander Huemer via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > > FSF does not enforce anything. > > > > https://gpl-violations.org/ > > They do though. > > > > -Alex > > > > Go to 'News' on that site and the last news about an enforcement action was > from 2013. True. Though, Harald Welte, the person behind the project is still very active in the free software community and surely happy to help. > If you actually want to pursue GPL violations, especially if it's related > to a non-FSF sponsored project, you'll have better luck with the EFF or > appealing to someone like Popehat/Ken White to help find some *pro bono * > representation. That might be the case, I don't know these people. There is also the SFC[1] who are currently attacking John Deere for violating the GPL in their farm equipment[2], which is kind of a big deal. -Alex [1] https://sfconservancy.org/ [2] https://lwn.net/Articles/926330/ --===============9046009702443560540==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 17 08:02:54 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 02:02:45 -0600 Message-ID: <9adec334-e20e-0337-ff24-e57d9f058e3a@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6765532514752895031==" --===============6765532514752895031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-03-16 8:38 p.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 5:05=E2=80=AFPM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk > wrote: >> This has been around the block: >> >> You can lose a screw in a micro. >> You can lose a screwdriver in a mini. >> You can get lost in a mainframe. >=20 > We had an Amdahl in the middle of a multi-thousand-square-foot > computer room (one of several) at work 25 years ago. I do not > know/remember the model number but it was made of up several cabinets > not in a line. It had such a convoluted layout that you could > literally stand in the "middle" of it and not see outside. If you > stood in exactly the right spot, the blank panels lined up and made > the visual appearance of a box with no exits. >=20 > You _could_ get lost in that one, as long as you didn't take half a step aw= ay. >=20 > -ethan How did they upgrade the main frame after that? Ben. --===============6765532514752895031==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Fri Mar 17 09:51:14 2023 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PSU of a 11/23SD?? Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 10:51:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4551484042927083961==" --===============4551484042927083961== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The PSU (and the PDP11/73 in a BA11) is working again. After thorough cleaning of the PSU PCB (had to dismount the heatsink and the 3 TO3's, loosen the TO220's) I'vew checked the semiconductors..ok so far.= Fuse F2 was blown. Interestingly the electrolyte of that original Mallory cap seems to have some oil based blackish contents, it was impossible to remove that in a water/soap solution, even in a ultrasonic cleaner. I've finally used "white spirit" (Terpentinersatz in german)to clean up the things. I've mounted new fans (230V~ Types from EBMPABST (230V~ here anyways)) and now the pdp is working again, at least with ODT, don't have that RX02 from that machine here. Regards, Holm Mattis Lind wrote: > That is a BA11-M box with a H780 supply. The schematics can be found in the > KC780 document since the front end processor of the 11/780 is a PDP-11/03 > with a RX01 drive. > In the end of this document there is a schematic: >=20 > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/MP00534_KC780_Nov77.pdf >=20 > Good luck! >=20 > /Mattis >=20 > Den m=C3=A5n 13 mars 2023 kl 10:57 skrev Holm Tiffe via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: >=20 > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have to repair an PSU of a 11/23 n a BA11 Box with an H9720 Backplane > > (with an KDJ-11A) that has run an CNC milling machine until 2 weeks > > before now. :-) This is a Fidia machine..never heard about it before. > > > > The problem is that a big 19000=C2=B5F 40V capacitor in the PSU has failed > > and that I think because of that the 2nd of the two Nidec fans has > > finally failed. > > I'm in the process of cleaning the goo from the PSU-PCB, found a burnt > > 5A fuse and now I'm checking the Semiconductors... > > > > The problem is here that the Transistors (and diodes) have uncommon > > types printed on, an TO220 is named SJE2677, another one is labeled > > 12652-00 RCA..and so on. > > I've found a label with "0H780-B" on the PSU.. H780 PSU? > > Where can I get some schematics from that beast? It is a secondary > > switcher ist seems. > > > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > > Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 > > info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 > > 741 > > > > --=20 Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,=20 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============4551484042927083961==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Mar 17 10:36:06 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] domesticating the computer - call for last inputs Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 05:35:51 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0042145854605600684==" --===============0042145854605600684== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, I think we have a good narrated composition! It is still Unlisted since there are a few more things to finalize/decide. But unless we spot any major flaw in the rendering, this should be wrapped up over the next day or so. There are a few somewhat subtle easter eggs added. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPrHfUrhjQk > One question is: should this be set to "Yes it is for kids"? My understanding is Enabling that prevents Comments being enabled, but I'm not sure if there is any other benefit. But yes, this is NOT a documentary and is intended more for a middle/high school audience. Other decisions are things like final thumbnail and writing up the Description, credits, etc. And - recall - this wasn't intended as a "full history of computing", the focus was on the 1970s. But there is a brief segment towards the end that honors some pre-1970s work. Also, this may be the only "history of personal computer" related video that doesn't mention the word Gates or Wozniak [ that wasn't exactly intentional! ;) actually the original intent was to avoid any names at all, it wasn't a biography - but a few do end up mentioned ] Thanks for all the feedback and criticism - it won't be perfect for everyone, but I think it is far better than what we started with. My "technical review team" has included: Dennis Roberson (SCAMP/IBM 5100 lead engineer) Dan Bricklin (VisiCalc) Scott Adams (Adventure and many other games) Ken Williams (Sierra OnLine) -Steve --===============0042145854605600684==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Mar 17 13:11:01 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) wanted! Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 09:38:30 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1187528270061448592==" --===============1187528270061448592== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mandatory update for VMS V4.2 is still missing in my collection. Because of that, VMS V4.2 is not fully usable, neither can layered software be installed nor can it be upgraded to VMS V4.3. Who can help??? --===============1187528270061448592==-- From plamenspam@afterpeople.com Fri Mar 17 13:21:15 2023 From: Plamen Mihaylov To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) wanted! Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 15:21:09 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6753238137110727558==" --===============6753238137110727558== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I probably have microvms 4.2 mup On Friday, March 17, 2023, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The mandatory update for VMS V4.2 is still missing in my collection. > > Because of that, VMS V4.2 is not fully usable, > neither can layered software be installed nor can > it be upgraded to VMS V4.3. > > Who can help??? > --===============6753238137110727558==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Mar 17 13:25:43 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) wanted! Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 14:25:26 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8153285818286613660==" --===============8153285818286613660== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, that's great news! Could you please verify? Is it on diskette (probably RX50), tape (TK50) or an image for simh? Can I help you with other VMS software? Thanks a lot! Ulli Am Fr., 17. März 2023 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > I probably have microvms 4.2 mup > > On Friday, March 17, 2023, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The mandatory update for VMS V4.2 is still missing in my collection. > > > > Because of that, VMS V4.2 is not fully usable, > > neither can layered software be installed nor can > > it be upgraded to VMS V4.3. > > > > Who can help??? > > > --===============8153285818286613660==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Mar 17 13:26:01 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 09:25:54 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0bdbd7e3-cfa4-e31d-6161-51c46db56772@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0246515625780818020==" --===============0246515625780818020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 16, 2023, at 10:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 3/15/23 17:23, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Yes, the IBM 709x ran in single-job fashion. I don't think it had >> interrupts, so breaking off one program to schedule another was not >> possible. Also, it had no memory protection. We had a 7094 at >> Washington University in the late 1960s, and it was the main computer >> resource on campus. When the moved up to a 360/50, they were able to >> benefit from multiprogramming, and got a boost in throughput, although >> the 7094 was QUITE a bit faster than the 360/50. > ... > The CDC 1604 (1959 (certainly had interrupts, both internal and > external, but I do not believe it had memory protection. It did have a > console loudspeaker driven by a 3-bit DAC, however. I'm still trying to get a good answer to "when did the first commercial (as o= pposed to one-off lab) computer appear that had interrupts as a standard feat= ure?" It looks like there was the IBM 704, in 1958, with interrupts but some docume= ntation made me think it was an optional feature. The other machine from 195= 8 I can think of is the Electrologica X1. That is the machine that confronte= d Dijkstra with the need to develop new theory to deal with the non-sequentia= l behavior of machines with interrupts, and his Ph.D. thesis was the result. = The X1 is also interesting in that it has what much later would be called a = BIOS -- a ROM-resident software library that included I/O services including = dealing with interrupts, an assembler/loader, and an operator interface. Dij= kstra wrote that, and the source code is in an appendix of his thesis. paul --===============0246515625780818020==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Fri Mar 17 13:50:32 2023 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) wanted! Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 13:50:25 +0000 Message-ID: <003b01d958d7$6d050a00$470f1e00$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7748037703600092671==" --===============7748037703600092671== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wouldn't mind having a copy for completeness too... > -----Original Message----- > From: Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk > Sent: 17 March 2023 13:25 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Plamen Mihaylov ; Hans-Ulrich > H=C3=B6lscher > Subject: [cctalk] Re: VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) wanted! >=20 > Hi, > that's great news! > Could you please verify? > Is it on diskette (probably RX50), tape (TK50) or an image for simh? > Can I help you with other VMS software? >=20 > Thanks a lot! >=20 > Ulli >=20 > Am Fr., 17. M=C3=A4rz 2023 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: >=20 > > I probably have microvms 4.2 mup > > > > On Friday, March 17, 2023, Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > The mandatory update for VMS V4.2 is still missing in my collection. > > > > > > Because of that, VMS V4.2 is not fully usable, neither can layered > > > software be installed nor can it be upgraded to VMS V4.3. > > > > > > Who can help??? > > > > > --===============7748037703600092671==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Fri Mar 17 14:05:09 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) wanted! Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 07:04:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4443008719675536925==" --===============4443008719675536925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 17, 2023, 6:11 AM Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The mandatory update for VMS V4.2 is still missing in my collection. > > Because of that, VMS V4.2 is not fully usable, > neither can layered software be installed nor can > it be upgraded to VMS V4.3. > > Who can help??? http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/vax/vms/VMS_4.x/BB-BT05B-BE_VMS_4.2_85.tap.= gz http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/vax/vms/VMS_4.x/BB-FY83A-BE_VMS_4.2_mand_Ud= _85.tap.gz --===============4443008719675536925==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 17 15:08:28 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 08:08:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0668386471154682268==" --===============0668386471154682268== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/17/23 06:25, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 > I'm still trying to get a good answer to "when did the first commercial (as= opposed to one-off lab) computer appear that had interrupts as a standard fe= ature?" >=20 > It looks like there was the IBM 704, in 1958, with interrupts but some docu= mentation made me think it was an optional feature. The other machine from 1= 958 I can think of is the Electrologica X1. That is the machine that confron= ted Dijkstra with the need to develop new theory to deal with the non-sequent= ial behavior of machines with interrupts, and his Ph.D. thesis was the result= . The X1 is also interesting in that it has what much later would be called = a BIOS -- a ROM-resident software library that included I/O services includin= g dealing with interrupts, an assembler/loader, and an operator interface. D= ijkstra wrote that, and the source code is in an appendix of his thesis. >=20 I assume that you've seen Mark Smotherman's paper on this. UNIVAC seems to hold the distinction. https://people.computing.clemson.edu/~mark/interrupts.html --Chuck --===============0668386471154682268==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 17 15:22:39 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 08:22:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7330613990567531251==" --===============7330613990567531251== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anent the Smotherman paper. Woefully incomplete and inaccurate, but perhaps a starting point. https://people.computing.clemson.edu/~mark/interrupts.html For example, he cites the CDC CYBER 200 as 1981. Nope--CYBER was mostly a relabeling effort. For example, the 6600 became CYBER 74, the 7600 became CYBER 76. The CYBER 200 was the relabeled STAR 100, which had its origins ca. 1969. The "Invisible Package" was part of the original design, It was large, contained all 256 registers as well as a potload of machine state data--and, as a consequence was very slow. It was very complete, so a job could be interrupted and restarted from the "drop file" which contained an image of the job's memory as well as the invisible package. Very useful for debugging, as one could have several drop files, each marking a point in a program's execution. I've never satisfied myself as to the actual reason behind it. The STAR, being very large, was prone to hardware failures and jobs were usually very long (hours). The whole scheme made it possible to resume a job after a system error had occurred. --Chuck --===============7330613990567531251==-- From shumaker@att.net Fri Mar 17 15:32:35 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM RT PC Manuals free for shipping Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 08:32:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0641798289677160097==" --===============0641798289677160097== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Any interest here before I post them to EPay? Available for shipping cost from 95549: IBM RT PC AIX OS Communications Guide 59X7668 IBM RT PC AIX OS Messages Reference 59X9115 IBM RT PC INED 59X7643 These are the classic early slipcase style manuals.  They are in pristine condition.   All three are 1985 "First Editions" of the pub. I received them in an auction lot of of documents and have no need. Combined weight is ~13lbs. Steve --===============0641798289677160097==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Mar 17 15:43:06 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 11:42:37 -0400 Message-ID: <18A56BB4-5494-45A9-A255-FA6EA45DC5A2@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3644592133574741256==" --===============3644592133574741256== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 17, 2023, at 11:22 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >=20 > Anent the Smotherman paper. Woefully incomplete and inaccurate, but > perhaps a starting point. >=20 > https://people.computing.clemson.edu/~mark/interrupts.html I noticed the section on deferred interrupts, which mentions Cutler and "fork= " on RSX. It doesn't mention the similar mechanism, also called fork, in RT-= 11. I don't know if RT-11 was earlier or concurrent, nor whether the two cam= e up with it independently. =20 paul --===============3644592133574741256==-- From gavin@learn.bio Fri Mar 17 16:13:35 2023 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 11:13:20 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3666298128532896705==" --===============3666298128532896705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 9:38 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > We had an Amdahl in the middle of a multi-thousand-square-foot > computer room (one of several) at work 25 years ago. Heh, of the limited number of big Mainframe data centers I got to visit, every one had one big red Amdahl box among a vast field of IBM hardware. Once you had enough IBM systems IBM just assumed you were their bitch now and would pay whatever they asked for further systems. The solution was to buy a single Amdahl system thus getting your IBM sales rep summerily replaced with a much humbler one. G. --===============3666298128532896705==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri Mar 17 16:24:47 2023 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 16:24:38 +0000 Message-ID: <7wmt4bz6pl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <18A56BB4-5494-45A9-A255-FA6EA45DC5A2@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2744114678537188501==" --===============2744114678537188501== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Koning wrote: > I noticed the section on deferred interrupts, which mentions Cutler > and "fork" on RSX. It doesn't mention the similar mechanism, also > called fork, in RT-11. And, pray tell, what do these "fork" mean? I'm curious since Unix has fork as a verb, whereas Tenex has it as a noun. Presumably they both got it from the Berkeley 930 timesharing system, so maybe something got lost in translation on the way to the East coast. It would be intresting to compare against the meaning in RSX (11 not 15, I guess) and RT-11. --===============2744114678537188501==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Mar 17 16:34:55 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 12:34:42 -0400 Message-ID: <8E977EAC-C8D6-495A-854D-1C52A2366165@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <7wmt4bz6pl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2699841350506446708==" --===============2699841350506446708== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 17, 2023, at 12:24 PM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >=20 > Paul Koning wrote: >> I noticed the section on deferred interrupts, which mentions Cutler >> and "fork" on RSX. It doesn't mention the similar mechanism, also >> called fork, in RT-11. >=20 > And, pray tell, what do these "fork" mean? >=20 > I'm curious since Unix has fork as a verb, whereas Tenex has it as a > noun. Presumably they both got it from the Berkeley 930 timesharing > system, so maybe something got lost in translation on the way to the > East coast. It would be intresting to compare against the meaning in > RSX (11 not 15, I guess) and RT-11. The paper mentions it: "fork routines" which I think Linux calls "bottom half= ". These are functions executed as a consequence of an interrupt, but from a= queue and not with interrupts masked off. The idea is that an RTOS doesn't = want to block interrupts more than the minimum necessary, so operating system= s like RT11 and RSX in their interrupt handler capture the necessary hardware= state in memory, then queue a fork routine to do the real work later after i= nterrupts have once again been enabled. This goes by way of what RT11 origin= ally called a "fork queue" but was told to rename to "fork list" :-) Some other operating systems, like RSTS, have some amount of deferred process= ing but tend to do a lot, often all, the interrupt handling work at interrupt= level. That's ok for a timesharing system, but you wouldn't want to run tim= e critical stuff on it. And this is why RSTS does a comparatively poor job o= f supporting DDCMP over async lines. "Fork" in the Unix sense is something different and unrelated. paul --===============2699841350506446708==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Mar 17 16:39:15 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 12:38:46 -0400 Message-ID: <69756FFB-F15B-4725-9D01-5B681F452B17@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1496798530255912961==" --===============1496798530255912961== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 17, 2023, at 11:22 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >=20 > Anent the Smotherman paper. Woefully incomplete and inaccurate, but > perhaps a starting point. >=20 > https://people.computing.clemson.edu/~mark/interrupts.html On interrupt coalescing (mentioned under "performance techniques"), an early = -- perhaps first -- implementation is in the Electrologica X8. It uses queue= s guarded by semaphores to communicate with the I/O coprocessor CHARON, and t= he interrupts delivered in response are also controlled by a semaphore. The = initial count of that semaphore specifies how many I/O operations to complete= before an interrupt is done. Its semaphores are constructed around a hardwa= re primitive that adds a register to memory and delivers the result both to t= hat memory location and to the register, interlocked via a read/modify/write = core memory cycle. paul --===============1496798530255912961==-- From plamenspam@afterpeople.com Fri Mar 17 18:30:39 2023 From: Plamen Mihaylov To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) wanted! Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 16:48:31 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003b01d958d7$6d050a00$470f1e00$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3088106188896456517==" --===============3088106188896456517== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:50 PM Rob Jarratt wrote: > I wouldn't mind having a copy for completeness too... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk > > Sent: 17 March 2023 13:25 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Plamen Mihaylov ; Hans-Ulrich > > Hölscher > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) wanted! > > > > Hi, > > that's great news! > > Could you please verify? > > Is it on diskette (probably RX50), tape (TK50) or an image for simh? > > Can I help you with other VMS software? > > > > Thanks a lot! > > > > Ulli > > > > Am Fr., 17. März 2023 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > > > > > I probably have microvms 4.2 mup > > > > > > On Friday, March 17, 2023, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > The mandatory update for VMS V4.2 is still missing in my collection. > > > > > > > > Because of that, VMS V4.2 is not fully usable, neither can layered > > > > software be installed nor can it be upgraded to VMS V4.3. > > > > > > > > Who can help??? > > > > > > > > > --===============3088106188896456517==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Fri Mar 17 19:43:55 2023 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 19:27:47 +0000 Message-ID: <6561c9f7-16ce-7f71-e01e-f34cace89014@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <8E977EAC-C8D6-495A-854D-1C52A2366165@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1899421004450508633==" --===============1899421004450508633== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/03/2023 16:34, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > This goes by way of what RT11 originally called a "fork queue" but was told= to rename to "fork list" :-) The story was that Dave Cutler had a T-shirt made with "fork queue" on=20 it, but I don't know if that's actually true. Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============1899421004450508633==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Fri Mar 17 22:59:47 2023 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 18:59:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230317071303.cfia44gjingktw23@stacey.r0tty.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4079065608856358246==" --===============4079065608856358246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FSF hasn't done anything in at least a decade, but someone from there "is still around", so they're somehow relevant. People who actually are doing something (e.g litigating) are dismissed because you "don't know these people" (aside: there's someone who cares about open source who doesn't know who the EFF is?). But someone not previously mentioned is doing something, so...look! squirrel!? No wonder GPL violators operate with impunity. On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:13 AM Alexander Huemer via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 09:25:31PM -0400, Ken Seefried wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:32 PM Alexander Huemer via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > > > FSF does not enforce anything. > > > > > > https://gpl-violations.org/ > > > They do though. > > > > > > -Alex > > > > > > > Go to 'News' on that site and the last news about an enforcement action > was > > from 2013. > > True. > Though, Harald Welte, the person behind the project is still very active > in the free software community and surely happy to help. > > > If you actually want to pursue GPL violations, especially if it's related > > to a non-FSF sponsored project, you'll have better luck with the EFF or > > appealing to someone like Popehat/Ken White to help find some *pro bono * > > representation. > > That might be the case, I don't know these people. > There is also the SFC[1] who are currently attacking John Deere for > violating the GPL in their farm equipment[2], which is kind of a big > deal. > > -Alex > > [1] https://sfconservancy.org/ > [2] https://lwn.net/Articles/926330/ > --===============4079065608856358246==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Mar 17 23:48:38 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 16:48:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7673693776219401441==" --===============7673693776219401441== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I once heard a story from someone* who was told by a journalist that while said journalist was interviewing Richard Stallman he was [WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT COMMENCES HERE] picking the jam from between his toes and eating it. Make of that what you will, but if that isn't just a slander, that's the guy upon whose legacy everyone is relying. Sellam * remaining nameless On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:59 PM Ken Seefried via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > FSF hasn't done anything in at least a decade, but someone from there "is > still around", so they're somehow relevant. People who actually are doing > something (e.g litigating) are dismissed because you "don't know these > people" (aside: there's someone who cares about open source who doesn't > know who the EFF is?). But someone not previously mentioned is doing > something, so...look! squirrel!? > > No wonder GPL violators operate with impunity. > > On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:13 AM Alexander Huemer via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 09:25:31PM -0400, Ken Seefried wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:32 PM Alexander Huemer via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom Hunter via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > FSF does not enforce anything. > > > > > > > > https://gpl-violations.org/ > > > > They do though. > > > > > > > > -Alex > > > > > > > > > > Go to 'News' on that site and the last news about an enforcement action > > was > > > from 2013. > > > > True. > > Though, Harald Welte, the person behind the project is still very active > > in the free software community and surely happy to help. > > > > > If you actually want to pursue GPL violations, especially if it's > related > > > to a non-FSF sponsored project, you'll have better luck with the EFF or > > > appealing to someone like Popehat/Ken White to help find some *pro > bono * > > > representation. > > > > That might be the case, I don't know these people. > > There is also the SFC[1] who are currently attacking John Deere for > > violating the GPL in their farm equipment[2], which is kind of a big > > deal. > > > > -Alex > > > > [1] https://sfconservancy.org/ > > [2] https://lwn.net/Articles/926330/ > > > --===============7673693776219401441==-- From seefriek@gmail.com Sat Mar 18 00:19:29 2023 From: Ken Seefried To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 20:19:13 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8704796234398431814==" --===============8704796234398431814== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I once heard... You don't need hearsay. FSF leadership seems to be proud, and vocal, of things that make the rest of us cringe. On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 7:48 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I once heard a story from someone* who was told by a journalist that while > said journalist was interviewing Richard Stallman he was [WARNING: GRAPHIC > CONTENT COMMENCES HERE] picking the jam from between his toes and eating > it. > > Make of that what you will, but if that isn't just a slander, that's the > guy upon whose legacy everyone is relying. > > Sellam > > * remaining nameless > > On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:59 PM Ken Seefried via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > FSF hasn't done anything in at least a decade, but someone from there "is > > still around", so they're somehow relevant. People who actually are > doing > > something (e.g litigating) are dismissed because you "don't know these > > people" (aside: there's someone who cares about open source who doesn't > > know who the EFF is?). But someone not previously mentioned is doing > > something, so...look! squirrel!? > > > > No wonder GPL violators operate with impunity. > > > > On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:13 AM Alexander Huemer via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 09:25:31PM -0400, Ken Seefried wrote: > > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:32 PM Alexander Huemer via cctalk < > > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom Hunter via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > FSF does not enforce anything. > > > > > > > > > > https://gpl-violations.org/ > > > > > They do though. > > > > > > > > > > -Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > Go to 'News' on that site and the last news about an enforcement > action > > > was > > > > from 2013. > > > > > > True. > > > Though, Harald Welte, the person behind the project is still very > active > > > in the free software community and surely happy to help. > > > > > > > If you actually want to pursue GPL violations, especially if it's > > related > > > > to a non-FSF sponsored project, you'll have better luck with the EFF > or > > > > appealing to someone like Popehat/Ken White to help find some *pro > > bono * > > > > representation. > > > > > > That might be the case, I don't know these people. > > > There is also the SFC[1] who are currently attacking John Deere for > > > violating the GPL in their farm equipment[2], which is kind of a big > > > deal. > > > > > > -Alex > > > > > > [1] https://sfconservancy.org/ > > > [2] https://lwn.net/Articles/926330/ > > > > > > --===============8704796234398431814==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Mar 18 01:15:55 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: domesticating the computer - call for last inputs Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 20:15:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3679828406134744547==" --===============3679828406134744547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ok, the final is up! If anyone wants the background image, the link is in the description. Thank you all for helping to make this far better than what my daughter and I started with. Domesticating the Computer: how the appliance computer came to be - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTHV-qRf-0c On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Erik Bruchez wrote: > One question is: should this be set to "Yes it is for kids"? My >> understanding is Enabling that prevents Comments being enabled, but I'm >> not >> sure if there is any other benefit. But yes, this is NOT a documentary >> and is intended more for a middle/high school audience. > > > You probably shouldn't enable "Made for kids" as it will disable lots of > other features, including saving the video to a playlist including Watch > Later. So it's essentially all drawbacks and no benefits. > > -Erik > --===============3679828406134744547==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Mar 18 01:16:57 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Found more CAMAC stuff Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 20:16:52 -0500 Message-ID: <2303a221-a581-814d-eceb-330b1f197fa7@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3881470380573097194==" --===============3881470380573097194== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, I've lost track of the guy who was interested in collecting CAMAC bits.  Cleaning up our lab, I found a Kinetic Systems 3922 Z1A crate controller, and a 2926 Z1A ISA slot controller for it.  Anybody interested? Thanks, Jon --===============3881470380573097194==-- From steven@malikoff.com Sat Mar 18 09:40:06 2023 From: steven@malikoff.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP-11/05 early print set for download Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2023 19:34:52 +1000 Message-ID: <86cec8616784989527a5e49e3f7adbe8.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8595798583295428824==" --===============8595798583295428824== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable G'day all, I have just uploaded the engineering drawings for the early PDP-11/05, the= one with the solid (no slots) Mazak lower bezel and the M7261 with the unpopulated region. The latest date I can find in this print set is October 1973, Drawing release= 11/05-49. You can view or download it from https://archive.org/details/pdp-11-05-engine= ering-drawings-oct-1973 It is 147Mb in size, sorry about that but I didn't want the quality to drop t= oo much (the raw scans were ~350Mb). Regards, Steve. --===============8595798583295428824==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Mar 18 14:54:44 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-11/05 early print set for download Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:54:35 -0500 Message-ID: <46da6783-fcd5-0a20-a354-962210a1ab01@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <86cec8616784989527a5e49e3f7adbe8.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6480421509290426967==" --===============6480421509290426967== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/18/23 04:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > G'day all, > I have just uploaded the engineering drawings for the early PDP-11/05, = the one with the solid (no slots) Mazak lower bezel Huh?=C2=A0 Mazak made machine tools.=C2=A0 Did you mean Zamak=20 (zinc-based die casting alloy)? Jon --===============6480421509290426967==-- From ebruchez@orbeon.com Sat Mar 18 15:24:58 2023 From: Erik Bruchez To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: domesticating the computer - call for last inputs Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 19:46:56 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4911022180971278924==" --===============4911022180971278924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > One question is: should this be set to "Yes it is for kids"? My > understanding is Enabling that prevents Comments being enabled, but I'm not > sure if there is any other benefit. But yes, this is NOT a documentary > and is intended more for a middle/high school audience. You probably shouldn't enable "Made for kids" as it will disable lots of other features, including saving the video to a playlist including Watch Later. So it's essentially all drawbacks and no benefits. -Erik --===============4911022180971278924==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Sat Mar 18 15:37:06 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-11/05 early print set for download Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2023 15:36:50 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <46da6783-fcd5-0a20-a354-962210a1ab01@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2972732402117974587==" --===============2972732402117974587== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I thought it was Mazak too - eg https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Myford-Mazak-hand-dials-ML7-and-ML7R-/325571981560 On Sat, Mar 18, 2023 at 2:54=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 3/18/23 04:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > G'day all, > > I have just uploaded the engineering drawings for the early > PDP-11/05, the one with the solid (no slots) Mazak lower bezel > > Huh? Mazak made machine tools. Did you mean Zamak > (zinc-based die casting alloy)? > > Jon > > --===============2972732402117974587==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Sat Mar 18 18:20:02 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) wanted! Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2023 16:44:12 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1626886151216257226==" --===============1626886151216257226== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you very much, your tape image works perfectly. I'm sorry I missed the one at bitsavers, but maybe yours is a little different (MicroVMS vs. VMS). I will have a look at that later. Do you have the DEC order number for your tape - something beginning like "AG-*****-BN"? Can I do anything for you in return? Ulli P.S. Here is the installation log: *sim> att ts microvms42_mup.tapsim> c $ @sys$update:vmsinstal VAX/VMS Software Product Installation Procedure BJT It is 17-MAR-2023 at 17:46.Enter a question mark (?) at any time for help.* Are you satisfied with the backup of your system disk [YES]? * Where will the distribution volumes be mounted: msa0:Enter the products to be processed from the first distribution volume set.* Products: *Please mount the first volume of the set on MSA0:.* Are you ready? yes%MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, VMSMUP mounted on _MSA0:The following products will be processed: VMSMUP V4.2 Beginning installation of VMSMUP V4.2 at 17:47%VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product saveset A...Mandatory update for MicroVMS Version 4.2 1) Apply all fixes to the system 2) Create a file with the descriptions of all fixes 3) Both of the above* What would you like to do [3]: %VMSMUP-I-FIXDESC, The fixes are described in SYS$UPDATE:VMSMUP042.TXT* Do you want to purge files replaced by this installation [YES]? %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, VMSMUP mounted on _MSA0: 1) AUTHORIZE (patch image)%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols%PATCH-I-NOGBL, some or all global symbols not accessible%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]AUTHORIZE.EXE;1%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]AUTHORIZE.EXE;1%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]AUTHORIZE.EXE;1 2) BASRTL (miscellaneous fix) 3) BASRTL (patch image)%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]BASRTL.EXE;1 4) CTDRIVER (patch image)%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]CTDRIVER.EXE;1 5) DUDRIVER (patch image)%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]DUDRIVER.EXE;1 6) F11BXQP (patch image)%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]F11BXQP.EXE;1 7) LIBDECOMP (edit text file) 8) MAKEROOT (edit text file) 9) NCP (patch image)%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols%PATCH-I-NOGBL, some or all global symbols not accessible%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]NCP.EXE;110) NETDRIVER (patch image)%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols%PATCH-I-NOGBL, some or all global symbols not accessible%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]NETDRIVER.EXE;1%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]NETDRIVER.EXE;111) NODRIVER (new image)12) SETP0 (patch image)%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols%PATCH-I-NOGBL, some or all global symbols not accessible%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]SETP0.EXE;113) SMGRTL (miscellaneous fix)14) SPKITBLD (edit text file)15) STARTUP (edit text file)16) SYS (patch image)%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols%PATCH-I-NOGBL, some or all global symbols not accessible%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]SYS.EXE;1%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.VMSMUP042]SYS.EXE;117) VAXCRTLG (new image)%VMSINSTAL-I-MOVEFILES, Files will now be moved to their target directories... Installation of VMSMUP V4.2 completed at 17:48%VMSINSTAL-I-REBOOT, This product requires that the system be rebooted. SHUTDOWN -- Perform an Orderly System Shutdown%SHUTDOWN-I-BOOTCHECK, Performing reboot consistency check...%SHUTDOWN-I-CHECKOK, Basic reboot consistency check completed%SHUTDOWN-I-OPERATOR, This terminal is now an operator's console.%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-MAR-2023 17:45:44.43 %%%%%%%%%%%Operator status for operator _OPA0:CENTRAL, PRINTER, TAPES, DISKS, DEVICES, CARDS, NETWORK, CLUSTER, SECURITY,OPER1, OPER2, OPER3, OPER4, OPER5, OPER6, OPER7, OPER8, OPER9, OPER10, OPER11,OPER12%SHUTDOWN-I-DISLOGINS, Interactive logins will now be disabled.%SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit =3D 0, current interactive value =3D 1%SHUTDOWN-I-STOPQUEMAN, The queue manager will now be stopped.SHUTDOWN message from user SYSTEM at _OPA0: 17:45:44The system will shut down in 0 minutes; back up soon. Please log off.Reboot after VMSMUP V4.2 installation.1 terminal has been notified.%SHUTDOWN-I-SITESHUT, The site-specific shutdown procedure will now be invoked.%SHUTDOWN-I-STOPUSER, All user processes will now be stopped.%SHUTDOWN-I-REMOVE, All installed images will now be removed.%SHUTDOWN-I-DISMOUNT, All volumes will now be dismounted.%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-MAR-2023 17:45:44.76 %%%%%%%%%%%Message from user SYSTEM_OPA0:, The system shutdown was requested by the operator.%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-MAR-2023 17:45:44.78 %%%%%%%%%%%Logfile was closed by operator _OPA0:Logfile was SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;1%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-MAR-2023 17:45:44.79 %%%%%%%%%%%Operator _OPA0: has been disabled, username SYSTEM SYSTEM SHUTDOWN COMPLETE - USE CONSOLE TO HALT SYSTEM Infinite loop, PC: 80008D7E (BRB 80008D7E)sim> exitGoodbyeLog file closedLogging to file "VMS042-01.LOG"sim> b rq0 VAX/VMS Version V4.2 24-JUN-1985 08:00 %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-MAR-2023 17:46:06.56 %%%%%%%%%%%Logfile has been initialized by operator _OPA0:Logfile is SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;2%SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit =3D 64, current interactive value =3D 0 SYSTEM job terminated at 17-MAR-2023 17:46:06.75Username: SYSTEMPassword: Welcome to VAX/VMS version V4.2 Last interactive login on Friday, 17-MAR-2023 17:45 $ type SYS$UPDATE:VMSMUP042.TXT 1) AUTHORIZE (patch image) ! AUTHORIZE.EXE ! ! ECO01 JRL0077 26-Jun-1985 ! MODULE: UAFMAIN ! Finish final stage of conversion from explicit command ! prompting/parsing to implicit using CLI$DCL_PARSE ! ! ECO02 JRL0090 28-Jun-1985 ! MODULE: UAFPARSE ! Eliminate problem with parsing of /_RESTRICT ! ! ECO03 JRL0093 8-Jul-1985 ! MODULE: UAFMAIN ! Restore file modification messages when AUTHORIZE is ! quit with the CTRL/Z key. ! 2) BASRTL (miscellaneous fix) ! ! BASRTL.EXE ! ! KC1079 15-Jul-1985 ! Module: BAS$$UDF_WL ! Correct initialization of ISB$V_MAT_PRINT ! 3) BASRTL (patch image) ! BASRTL.EXE ! ! ECO01 KC1079 15-Jul-1985 ! MODULE: BAS$$UDF_WL ! Clear ISB$V_MAT_PRINT so MAT PRINT outputs the correct ! number of blank lines. 4) CTDRIVER (patch image) ! CTDRIVER.EXE ! ! ECO01 PL 03-JUL-1985 ! Module: CTDRIVER.MAR ! Fix setting of speed, crfill, and parity ! for non-VMS to VMS case. ! ! addr of CTDRIVER 5) DUDRIVER (patch image) ! DUDRIVER.EXE ! ! ECO02 ROW0473 7-JUL-1985 ! MODULE: DUTUSUBS ! Enhance new unit check for shadowing. 6) F11BXQP (patch image) ! F11BXQP.EXE ! ! ECO01 LMP0331 3-Jul-1985 ! MODULE: DEACCS ! Undo the change made in LMP0331 to enable the protection check ! on the write attributes call. ! 7) LIBDECOMP (edit text file) ! LIBDECOMP.COM ! ! ECO01 BJT0012 3-Jul-1985 ! Fix file type of SYS$LIBRARY:ERFLIB to be .TLB 8) MAKEROOT (edit text file) ! MAKEROOT.COM ! ! ECO01 BJT0013 08-Jul-1985 ! Make a 4608 block page file by default rather than a 4096 ! block file. 9) NCP (patch image) !NCP.EXE ! ! ! ECO 01 Sheryl Namoglu July 3, 1895 ! Remove the parsing that inserted an unnecessary ! space in front of all tracepoint names !10) NETDRIVER (patch image) ! NETDRIVER.EXE ! ! ECO 01 ADE0044 A. Eldridge 22-Mar-1985 ! MODULE: NETDRVNSP.MAR ! Change value of NSP$V_SEQ_NAR to reflect NSP definition -- ! was 14, is now 12. ! ! ECO 02 PRB0371 Paul Beck 3-JUL-1985 ! MODULE: NETDRVNSP.MAR ! Fix bug resulting in incorrect PROBE of receive buffer ! in IOPOST which led to ACCVIO being reported in the IOSB. ! IRP$W_BCNT is used for the probe, but was too large because ! some data segments had be pre-copied to the user buffer by ! NETDRIVER but not accounted for in IRP$W_BCNT. ! Fix involves accumulating the number of bytes copied to ! to user buffer by NETDRIVER in IRP$W_ABCNT and subtracting ! that count from IRP$W_BCNT prior to going to IOPOST. This ! correctly sets IRP$W_BCNT for the PROBE. !11) NODRIVER (new image) ! NODRIVER.EXE ! ! MMD0356 10-July-1985 ! Fix to scheduling the special receive no buffer, so that ! it is not queued after the circuit has been shut off. ! Also fix a branch in start_transmit which could cause the ! system to crash. !12) SETP0 (patch image) ! SETP0.EXE ! ! ECO01 JRL0092 2-Jul-1985 ! MODULE: SETPWD ! Make sure the text returned by SET_PASSWORD_GENERATE is upcased. !13) SMGRTL (miscellaneous fix) ! ! SMGRTL.EXE ! ! TS020 15-Jul-1985 ! Module: SMGDEF.SDL ! Remove curly braces from comments for VAX PASCAL. !14) SPKITBLD (edit text file) ! SPKITBLD.COM ! ! ECOnn JJO0011 11-Jul-1985 ! If using a TK50, don't use the /DENSITY qualifier on ! the BACKUP command.15) STARTUP (edit text file) ! STARTUP.COM ! ! ECO01 BJT0014 14-Jul-1985 ! Fix error in deleting symbol for tailored systems.16) SYS (patch image) ! SYS.EXE ! ! ECO28 BJT0011 21-Jun-1985 ! Set version number to "V4.2". ! ECO29 WMC0001 08-Jul-1985 ! Fix imagage activation from sequential device.17) VAXCRTLG (new image) ! ! VAXCRTLG.VUI Chris Nolan 28 June 1985 ! ! VAXCRTLG.EXE was built with a missing universal symbol, namely CC$_GFLOAT ! This new version contains the same code and data as the original shareable ! image, but with the additional universal symbol. ! $ sh sysVAX/VMS V4.2 on node 17-MAR-2023 17:47:35.66 Uptime 0 00:01:40 Pid Process Name State Pri I/O CPU Page flts Ph.Mem00000080 NULL COM 0 0 0 00:01:38.80 0 0 00000081 SWAPPER HIB 16 0 0 00:00:00.00 0 0 00000084 ERRFMT HIB 9 21 0 00:00:00.01 66 84 00000085 OPCOM LEF 9 15 0 00:00:00.00 154 177 00000086 JOB_CONTROL HIB 8 20 0 00:00:00.01 78 174 00000088 SYSTEM CUR 4 249 0 00:00:00.07 557 163 $ sh devDevice Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count CntDJA1: Online 0DUA0: Mounted 0 VAXVMSRL4 777794 60 1DUA2: Online 0DUA3: Online 0DYA0: Online 0DYA1: Online 0Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count CntMSA0: Online 0MTA0: Online 0Device Device Error Name Status CountOPA0: Online 0TTA0: Online 0TTA1: Online 0TTA2: Online 0TTA3: Online 0TTA4: Online 0TTA5: Online 0TTA6: Online 0TTA7: Online 0TTB0: Online 0TTB1: Online 0TTB2: Online 0TTB3: Online 0TTB4: Online 0TTB5: Online 0TTB6: Online 0TTB7: Online 0Device Device Error Name Status CountLPA0: Online 0Device Device Error Name Status CountPUA0: Online 1XEA0: Online 0 $ sh mem System Memory Resources on 17-MAR-2023 17:47:42.04Physical Memory Usage (pages): Total Free In Use Modified Main Memory (8.00Mb) 16384 13374 2917 93Slot Usage (slots): Total Free Resident Swapped Process Entry Slots 70 64 6 0 Balance Set Slots 51 47 4 0Fixed-Size Pool Areas (packets): Total Free In Use Size Small Packet (SRP) List 760 651 109 96 I/O Request Packet (IRP) List 521 442 79 208 Large Packet (LRP) List 7 4 3 1584Dynamic Memory Usage (bytes): Total Free In Use Largest Nonpaged Dynamic Memory 270336 143600 126736 142912 Paged Dynamic Memory 226816 59616 167200 58448Paging File Usage (pages): Free In Use Total DISK$VAXVMSRL4:[SYS0.SYSEXE]SWAPFILE.SYS 22328 672 23000 DISK$VAXVMSRL4:[SYS0.SYSEXE]PAGEFILE.SYS 38768 0 38768Of the physical pages in use, 2269 pages are permanently allocated to VMS. $ $ @sys$system:shutdown SHUTDOWN -- Perform an Orderly System ShutdownHow many minutes until final shutdown [0]: Reason for shutdown [Standalone]: Do you want to spin down the disk volumes [NO]? Do you want to invoke the site-specific shutdown procedure [YES]? Should an automatic system reboot be performed [NO]? When will the system be rebooted [later]: Shutdown options (enter as a comma-separated list): REBOOT_CHECK Check existence of basic system filesShutdown options [NONE]: %SHUTDOWN-I-OPERATOR, This terminal is now an operator's console.%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-MAR-2023 17:47:52.90 %%%%%%%%%%%Operator status for operator _OPA0:CENTRAL, PRINTER, TAPES, DISKS, DEVICES, CARDS, NETWORK, CLUSTER, SECURITY,OPER1, OPER2, OPER3, OPER4, OPER5, OPER6, OPER7, OPER8, OPER9, OPER10, OPER11,OPER12%SHUTDOWN-I-DISLOGINS, Interactive logins will now be disabled.%SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit =3D 0, current interactive value =3D 1%SHUTDOWN-I-STOPQUEMAN, The queue manager will now be stopped.SHUTDOWN message from user SYSTEM at _OPA0: 17:47:52The system will shut down in 0 minutes; back up later. Please log off.Standalone1 terminal has been notified.%SHUTDOWN-I-SITESHUT, The site-specific shutdown procedure will now be invoked.%SHUTDOWN-I-STOPUSER, All user processes will now be stopped.%SHUTDOWN-I-REMOVE, All installed images will now be removed.%SHUTDOWN-I-DISMOUNT, All volumes will now be dismounted.%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-MAR-2023 17:47:53.12 %%%%%%%%%%%Message from user SYSTEM_OPA0:, The system shutdown was requested by the operator.%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-MAR-2023 17:47:53.14 %%%%%%%%%%%Logfile was closed by operator _OPA0:Logfile was SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;2%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-MAR-2023 17:47:53.14 %%%%%%%%%%%Operator _OPA0: has been disabled, username SYSTEM SYSTEM SHUTDOWN COMPLETE - USE CONSOLE TO HALT SYSTEM Infinite loop, PC: 80008D7E (BRB 80008D7E)sim> exit* Am Fr., 17. M=C3=A4rz 2023 um 19:30 Uhr schrieb Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:50=E2=80=AFPM Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > I wouldn't mind having a copy for completeness too... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk > > > Sent: 17 March 2023 13:25 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > Cc: Plamen Mihaylov ; Hans-Ulrich > > > H=C3=B6lscher > > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) wanted! > > > > > > Hi, > > > that's great news! > > > Could you please verify? > > > Is it on diskette (probably RX50), tape (TK50) or an image for simh? > > > Can I help you with other VMS software? > > > > > > Thanks a lot! > > > > > > Ulli > > > > > > Am Fr., 17. M=C3=A4rz 2023 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Plamen Mihaylov via cct= alk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > > > > > > > I probably have microvms 4.2 mup > > > > > > > > On Friday, March 17, 2023, Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk < > > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > The mandatory update for VMS V4.2 is still missing in my > collection. > > > > > > > > > > Because of that, VMS V4.2 is not fully usable, neither can layered > > > > > software be installed nor can it be upgraded to VMS V4.3. > > > > > > > > > > Who can help??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --===============1626886151216257226==-- From steven@malikoff.com Sat Mar 18 20:48:05 2023 From: steven@malikoff.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-11/05 early print set for download Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 06:48:00 +1000 Message-ID: <0c6084103f7d20830b7c540cb8032f7f.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> In-Reply-To: <46da6783-fcd5-0a20-a354-962210a1ab01@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7375451171428654491==" --===============7375451171428654491== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jon said > On 3/18/23 04:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> G'day all, >> I have just uploaded the engineering drawings for the early PDP-11/05,= the one with the solid (no slots) Mazak lower bezel > > Huh?=C2=A0 Mazak made machine tools.=C2=A0 Did you mean Zamak > (zinc-based die casting alloy)? > > Jon It's Zamak in the US, and Mazak in the UK (possibly Europe too?) and other pa= rts of the world. I'm in the other parts of the world bit. Adrian said I thought it was Mazak too - eg https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Myford-Mazak-hand-dials-ML7-and-ML7R-/325571981560 I had those exact same original Mazak handwheel dials on my ML7, changed them= out for the machined resettable ones from Myford. Much nicer! --===============7375451171428654491==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sat Mar 18 21:36:33 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-11/05 early print set for download Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2023 17:36:27 -0400 Message-ID: <8f0f8326-35ef-a9aa-473a-ee75da4183b9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0c6084103f7d20830b7c540cb8032f7f.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6007346794888268896==" --===============6007346794888268896== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just like Anacin and Anadin - when things move across international=20 boundaries,local copyrights are a mess! On 2023-03-18 16:48, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Jon said >> On 3/18/23 04:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >>> G'day all, >>> I have just uploaded the engineering drawings for the early PDP-11/0= 5, the one with the solid (no slots) Mazak lower bezel >> Huh?=C2=A0 Mazak made machine tools.=C2=A0 Did you mean Zamak >> (zinc-based die casting alloy)? >> >> Jon > It's Zamak in the US, and Mazak in the UK (possibly Europe too?) and other = parts of the world. I'm in the other parts of the world bit. > > Adrian said > I thought it was Mazak too - eg > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Myford-Mazak-hand-dials-ML7-and-ML7R-/3255719815= 60 > > I had those exact same original Mazak handwheel dials on my ML7, changed th= em out for the machined resettable ones from Myford. Much nicer! > > > --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============6007346794888268896==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Mar 18 22:01:40 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-11/05 early print set for download Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2023 15:01:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8f0f8326-35ef-a9aa-473a-ee75da4183b9@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3688785209463364047==" --===============3688785209463364047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > Just like Anacin and Anadin - when things move across international > boundaries,local copyrights are a mess! In USA, copyright and trademark are handled by two different departments. Copyright registration is handled by Library of Congress. Although registration is not required, in the event of an infringement suit, it makes the copyright largely uncontestable, rendering THAT part of the suit moot. Trademark is handled by the Patent And Trademark Office. Registration is advisable. But even an unregistered trademark, if well documented, can be used to show "prior use", to defend in a suit, or to contest a new registration. Many trademarks have entered common usage, such as "kleenex" for facial tissue, or "Xerox", and are rather diluted, although still not available for competitors to use. In 1987, while doing some business at PTO (Patent and Trademark), I confirmed that "MS-DOS" was trademarked, whereas "PC-DOS was NOT trademarked. IBM considered it to be a description of the product, not the NAME. Similarly, you would not be able to trademark "DOS" due to extensive prior use. I don't know the details of what happened when Concurrent CP/M-86 was briefly marketed as "Concurrent PC-DOS". OB_Disclaimer: IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer), although I did costume as one on Halloween one year. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3688785209463364047==-- From ethan@757.org Sun Mar 19 14:44:14 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 10:44:09 -0400 Message-ID: <9f49a2fa-888b-fadd-cf36-14a4a8c9c512@757.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8754444796403550900==" --===============8754444796403550900== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I once heard a story from someone* who was told by a journalist that while > said journalist was interviewing Richard Stallman he was [WARNING: GRAPHIC > CONTENT COMMENCES HERE] picking the jam from between his toes and eating it. Oh, that's a thing of legend. Fear not, for there is video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ - Ethan --===============8754444796403550900==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Mar 19 14:58:16 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-11/05 early print set for download Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 09:58:10 -0500 Message-ID: <87b4721b-6335-e032-d7e9-4878e3c75b77@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <0c6084103f7d20830b7c540cb8032f7f.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4355983910160558050==" --===============4355983910160558050== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/18/23 15:48, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Jon said >> On 3/18/23 04:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >>> G'day all, >>> I have just uploaded the engineering drawings for the early PDP-11/0= 5, the one with the solid (no slots) Mazak lower bezel >> Huh?=C2=A0 Mazak made machine tools.=C2=A0 Did you mean Zamak >> (zinc-based die casting alloy)? >> >> Jon > > It's Zamak in the US, and Mazak in the UK (possibly Europe too?) and other = parts of the world. I'm in the other parts of the world bit. Wow, very interesting!=C2=A0 I never knew that.=C2=A0 (I wonder what=20 the Mazak people call their machines in UK/Europe?) Jon --===============4355983910160558050==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Sun Mar 19 15:09:16 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 15:08:56 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2878518520528798241==" --===============2878518520528798241== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Make of that what you will, but if that isn't just a slander, that's the > guy upon whose legacy everyone is relying. Everyone knows (or ought to, at this point) RMS is a weird guy and at best ma= kes some seriously questionable life choices and misinformed public statement= s. There's a reason he was forcibly removed from his position at MIT. I've me= t him in person, he's a weird guy. Both GNU and FSF have grown much larger than RMS. Thanks, Jonathan --===============2878518520528798241==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Sun Mar 19 15:35:19 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC Prom MRV11-C and MXV11-B2 ROMS Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:27:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1737290340328228521==" --===============1737290340328228521== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is it possible to use the MXV11-B2 Roms in an 18 bit MRV11-C Prom board?  Clearly they work in the 22 bit version, MRV11-D, but I don't have one of those. The intention is to put together a small PDP-11 in an H9281-AB backplane (18 bit) with an 11/23 or 11/73 CPU, Ram, disk controller, etc. --===============1737290340328228521==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Mar 19 16:12:00 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-11/05 early print set for download Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 09:06:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87b4721b-6335-e032-d7e9-4878e3c75b77@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0830427794285814246==" --===============0830427794285814246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/19/23 07:58, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Wow, very interesting!  I never knew that.  (I wonder what the Mazak > people call their machines in UK/Europe?) In my experience,"Mitsubishi". --Chuck --===============0830427794285814246==-- From atex57@mwt.net Sun Mar 19 19:49:20 2023 From: Ed To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-11/05 early print set for download Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 14:38:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4401465153188690541==" --===============4401465153188690541== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/19/23 11:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/19/23 07:58, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> Wow, very interesting!  I never knew that.  (I wonder what the Mazak >> people call their machines in UK/Europe?) > In my experience,"Mitsubishi". > > --Chuck > > I believe the parent company is Yamazaki. They use Mitsubishi in their controls. Ed. --===============4401465153188690541==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Tue Mar 21 11:38:56 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Wanted PDP-11 Paper Tape Software Source Tape Images Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 11:38:13 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5014210527468178011==" --===============5014210527468178011== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone point me to the source paper tapes for the classic Paper Tape Soft= ware programmes packages ? The IOX, ODT, FPMP and loader/dumper source paper tapes [e.g. DEC-11-XIOXA-A-= PA1 & 2] are on bit savers, but those for the assemblers / linkers seem not t= o be. That the assembler / linker sources were distributed is attested by the 1970'= s software catalogs; from their evident rarity I infer purchases were uncommo= n. While any archive of -PA tapes is of interest, those I'm particularly seeking= are: - DEC-11-UPLAA-A-PA1 to 12 PAL-11A (8k) (V007A) Source PTs [~=3D ASXA] - DEC-11-ASPA-PA1 to 11 PAL-11A (4k) (V002A) Source PTs [~=3D ASPA] - DEC-11-XIXLA-A-PA1 & 2 IOX LPT (V004A) Source PTs - DEC-11ULKSA-A-PA1 to 6 Link11S (V002A) Source PTs - also PAL11S sources, however they are not listed in the catalogs Equally, listings would be of value, e.g.: - DEC-11-ASPA-LA PAL-11A (V002A) (4k) Listing Electronic copies are all I require, although if someone has a cupboard full = of untranscribed physical paper tapes I could oblige. Yours in anticipation of being able to, hopefully, add the EIS instructions t= o PAL-11A's repertoire. Martin --===============5014210527468178011==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Mar 21 13:37:12 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wanted PDP-11 Paper Tape Software Source Tape Images Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 09:37:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7112316465091010897==" --===============7112316465091010897== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A while ago there was a reference to PDP-10 DECtape images (on Bitsavers?) fr= om that era. I remember it has early RSTS sources on it. It may have what y= ou're looking for as well. You'd want to look for files with the .P11 extens= ion because they were fed to the MACX11 cross-assembler. (I think the source= s for that cross-assembler are also on one of those tapes. Not those for MIM= IC, unfortunately.) paul > On Mar 21, 2023, at 7:38 AM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Can anyone point me to the source paper tapes for the classic Paper Tape So= ftware programmes packages ? >=20 > The IOX, ODT, FPMP and loader/dumper source paper tapes [e.g. DEC-11-XIOXA-= A-PA1 & 2] are on bit savers, but those for the assemblers / linkers seem not= to be. >=20 > That the assembler / linker sources were distributed is attested by the 197= 0's software catalogs; from their evident rarity I infer purchases were uncom= mon. >=20 > While any archive of -PA tapes is of interest, those I'm particularly seeki= ng are: >=20 > - DEC-11-UPLAA-A-PA1 to 12 PAL-11A (8k) (V007A) Source PTs [~=3D ASXA] >=20 > - DEC-11-ASPA-PA1 to 11 PAL-11A (4k) (V002A) Source PTs [~=3D ASPA] >=20 > - DEC-11-XIXLA-A-PA1 & 2 IOX LPT (V004A) Source PTs >=20 > - DEC-11ULKSA-A-PA1 to 6 Link11S (V002A) Source PTs >=20 > - also PAL11S sources, however they are not listed in the catalogs >=20 > Equally, listings would be of value, e.g.: >=20 > - DEC-11-ASPA-LA PAL-11A (V002A) (4k) Listing >=20 > Electronic copies are all I require, although if someone has a cupboard ful= l of untranscribed physical paper tapes I could oblige. >=20 > Yours in anticipation of being able to, hopefully, add the EIS instructions= to PAL-11A's repertoire. > Martin >=20 >=20 --===============7112316465091010897==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Tue Mar 21 13:41:54 2023 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB: Working IBM 9401-150 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 09:41:38 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7450448362273714400==" --===============7450448362273714400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, First time posting here... I am wondering if anyone knows of someone looking to get rid of a working (preferably) IBM AS/400e 9401-150? For local pickup it would need to be around the Atlanta, GA area in the US. Thanks! -Peter --===============7450448362273714400==-- From ik@yvanj.me Tue Mar 21 13:46:31 2023 From: Yvan Janssens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: Working IBM 9401-150 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 14:46:14 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4345863169886689272==" --===============4345863169886689272== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, Is there any particular reason why you need a model 150? Depending on your needs, you might be better off with eg a -170; a -170 will support the same software stack and will be significantly faster. Are you stuck with relying on Advanced/36 or similar? /y On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 at 14:42, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello everyone, > > First time posting here... > > I am wondering if anyone knows of someone looking to get rid of a working > (preferably) IBM AS/400e 9401-150? For local pickup it would need to be > around the Atlanta, GA area in the US. > > Thanks! > -Peter > -- Sent using CompuServe 1.22 --===============4345863169886689272==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Mar 21 13:47:08 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wanted PDP-11 Paper Tape Software Source Tape Images Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 09:46:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8015013816221899723==" --===============8015013816221899723== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit search for PDPGUI software. This is a good place to start to look for papertapes. Bill On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 7:39 AM Martin Bishop via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Can anyone point me to the source paper tapes for the classic Paper Tape > Software programmes packages ? > > The IOX, ODT, FPMP and loader/dumper source paper tapes [e.g. > DEC-11-XIOXA-A-PA1 & 2] are on bit savers, but those for the assemblers / > linkers seem not to be. > > That the assembler / linker sources were distributed is attested by the > 1970's software catalogs; from their evident rarity I infer purchases were > uncommon. > > While any archive of -PA tapes is of interest, those I'm particularly > seeking are: > > - DEC-11-UPLAA-A-PA1 to 12 PAL-11A (8k) (V007A) Source PTs [~= ASXA] > > - DEC-11-ASPA-PA1 to 11 PAL-11A (4k) (V002A) Source PTs [~= ASPA] > > - DEC-11-XIXLA-A-PA1 & 2 IOX LPT (V004A) Source PTs > > - DEC-11ULKSA-A-PA1 to 6 Link11S (V002A) Source PTs > > - also PAL11S sources, however they are not listed in the catalogs > > Equally, listings would be of value, e.g.: > > - DEC-11-ASPA-LA PAL-11A (V002A) (4k) Listing > > Electronic copies are all I require, although if someone has a cupboard > full of untranscribed physical paper tapes I could oblige. > > Yours in anticipation of being able to, hopefully, add the EIS > instructions to PAL-11A's repertoire. > Martin > > > --===============8015013816221899723==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Tue Mar 21 13:53:49 2023 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: Working IBM 9401-150 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 09:53:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6359392648501362905==" --===============6359392648501362905== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Yvan, I am looking for one to add to my collection of toys. Purely as a hobby item so I'm mainly thinking of keeping cost down, I'm also thinking of licensing and such. The 150 doesn't require a license from what I have read. Although I wouldn't turn down a 170 with a proper license if the price is right. :) -Peter On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 9:46 AM Yvan Janssens wrote: > Hi Peter, > > Is there any particular reason why you need a model 150? > > Depending on your needs, you might be better off with eg a -170; a -170 > will support the same software stack and will be significantly faster. > > Are you stuck with relying on Advanced/36 or similar? > > /y > > On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 at 14:42, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> First time posting here... >> >> I am wondering if anyone knows of someone looking to get rid of a working >> (preferably) IBM AS/400e 9401-150? For local pickup it would need to be >> around the Atlanta, GA area in the US. >> >> Thanks! >> -Peter >> > > > -- > > > > > Sent using CompuServe 1.22 > > --===============6359392648501362905==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Tue Mar 21 14:14:43 2023 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: Working IBM 9401-150 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 10:14:28 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4895158118679560562==" --===============4895158118679560562== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, I say a 170 would work too but power consumption is another reason I have been looking at the -150. -Peter On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 9:53 AM Peter Ekstrom wrote: > Hi Yvan, > > I am looking for one to add to my collection of toys. Purely as a hobby > item so I'm mainly thinking of keeping cost down, I'm also thinking of > licensing and such. > The 150 doesn't require a license from what I have read. Although I > wouldn't turn down a 170 with a proper license if the price is right. :) > > -Peter > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 9:46 AM Yvan Janssens wrote: > >> Hi Peter, >> >> Is there any particular reason why you need a model 150? >> >> Depending on your needs, you might be better off with eg a -170; a -170 >> will support the same software stack and will be significantly faster. >> >> Are you stuck with relying on Advanced/36 or similar? >> >> /y >> >> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 at 14:42, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> First time posting here... >>> >>> I am wondering if anyone knows of someone looking to get rid of a working >>> (preferably) IBM AS/400e 9401-150? For local pickup it would need to be >>> around the Atlanta, GA area in the US. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> -Peter >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> Sent using CompuServe 1.22 >> >> --===============4895158118679560562==-- From lyokoboy0@gmail.com Tue Mar 21 16:58:36 2023 From: devin davison To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: Working IBM 9401-150 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:58:20 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2583609332206578509==" --===============2583609332206578509== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a 170. Im in melbourne fl. I have been unable to move it, its in my living room, but you would need to load it into the car. It ipl's to a working install, but not sure what version. Sold off all my twinax terminals a while back. On Tue, Mar 21, 2023, 10:14 AM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Well, I say a 170 would work too but power consumption is another reason I > have been looking at the -150. > > -Peter > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 9:53=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom wrote: > > > Hi Yvan, > > > > I am looking for one to add to my collection of toys. Purely as a hobby > > item so I'm mainly thinking of keeping cost down, I'm also thinking of > > licensing and such. > > The 150 doesn't require a license from what I have read. Although I > > wouldn't turn down a 170 with a proper license if the price is right. :) > > > > -Peter > > > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 9:46=E2=80=AFAM Yvan Janssens wro= te: > > > >> Hi Peter, > >> > >> Is there any particular reason why you need a model 150? > >> > >> Depending on your needs, you might be better off with eg a -170; a -170 > >> will support the same software stack and will be significantly faster. > >> > >> Are you stuck with relying on Advanced/36 or similar? > >> > >> /y > >> > >> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 at 14:42, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Hello everyone, > >>> > >>> First time posting here... > >>> > >>> I am wondering if anyone knows of someone looking to get rid of a > working > >>> (preferably) IBM AS/400e 9401-150? For local pickup it would need to be > >>> around the Atlanta, GA area in the US. > >>> > >>> Thanks! > >>> -Peter > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent using CompuServe 1.22 > >> > >> > --===============2583609332206578509==-- From jos.fries@kpnmail.nl Thu Mar 23 14:20:58 2023 From: jos.fries@kpnmail.nl To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] LSI-11 Console-ODT Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 15:09:39 +0100 Message-ID: <001e01d95d91$1b72a6c0$5257f440$@kpnmail.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5439855473951796420==" --===============5439855473951796420== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For my LSI-11 simulator I developed an as accurate as possible implementation of the Console-ODT functionality as described in the "LSI11 PDP11/03 Processor Handbook" and the "Microcomputer and Memories Handbook". As might be expected from these handbooks, the description of the ODT functionality is not a complete specification and consequently during the development several questions arose on the reaction of ODT on the user input, such as: - What is the reaction on commands like "R0/RS/4@"? Will the last opened location be opened or the contents of the last opened location? - What is the reaction on a RUBOUT at the prompt? - What will be the value of the opened location when e.g. three digits are entered and these three digits are then rubbed out and the location is closed? Will the value of the last opened location be unchanged or will it be zero? - An address and a GO command can be separated by a semicolon. What is the reaction if characters other than the "G" are typed after the semicolon? - Etc., etc... Is there someone in (the vicinity of) the Netherlands with a functioning LSI-11 who would allow me to try out these commands or could anyone point me to someone who could facilitate that? I developed a complete test script for all LSI-11 ODT commands and "all" relevant situations and ideally I would like to carry out this test script to get a complete specification of the Console-ODT functionality. Regards, Jos --===============5439855473951796420==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Mar 23 14:33:53 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LSI-11 Console-ODT Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 10:33:46 -0400 Message-ID: <9B41F1C2-E5B2-4997-B5E6-5DF358947902@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <001e01d95d91$1b72a6c0$5257f440$@kpnmail.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3908884993576125862==" --===============3908884993576125862== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't have such a system, but my starting assumption would be that micro-OD= T in general matches the behavior of standard ODT -- which is documented in v= arious software manuals. Among other things, in ODT rubout isn't a character erase but a full cancel o= f the command. So if you type 3 digits then rubout, whatever was underway is= canceled and you're back at the prompt. paul > On Mar 23, 2023, at 10:09 AM, jos.fries--- via cctalk wrote: >=20 > For my LSI-11 simulator I developed an as accurate as possible > implementation of the Console-ODT functionality as described in the "LSI11 > PDP11/03 Processor Handbook" and the "Microcomputer and Memories Handbook". > As might be expected from these handbooks, the description of the ODT > functionality is not a complete specification and consequently during the > development several questions arose on the reaction of ODT on the user > input, such as: >=20 > - What is the reaction on commands like "R0/RS/4@"? Will the last opened > location be opened or the contents of the last opened location? > - What is the reaction on a RUBOUT at the prompt? > - What will be the value of the opened location when e.g. three digits are > entered and these three digits are then rubbed out and the location is > closed? Will the value of the last opened location be unchanged or will it > be zero? > - An address and a GO command can be separated by a semicolon. What is the > reaction if characters other than the "G" are typed after the semicolon? > - Etc., etc... >=20 > Is there someone in (the vicinity of) the Netherlands with a functioning > LSI-11 who would allow me to try out these commands or could anyone point me > to someone who could facilitate that? >=20 > I developed a complete test script for all LSI-11 ODT commands and "all" > relevant situations and ideally I would like to carry out this test script > to get a complete specification of the Console-ODT functionality. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Jos >=20 --===============3908884993576125862==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Thu Mar 23 14:34:19 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Sun E3500 Peripheral Power Supply? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 10:34:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1131823116418740117==" --===============1131823116418740117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I picked up the pieces of a few Sun E3500s a while back but it looks like I don't have enough for a complete system - I am missing the front Peripheral Power Supply, 300-1358 ( https://dogemicrosystems.ca/pub/Sun/System_Handbook/Sun_syshbk_V4.1/Devices/D= C_Power/DCPOWER_FDK_1358_195W.html ). I know there's one on eBay right now but I have extras of most other parts for these machines - rear power supplies, cooling modules, FC-AL boards, SBUS boards, etc. and would ideally like to arrange some sort of mutually beneficial swap. Let me know if you're interested and we can work something out. Shipping is probably not going to be prohibitively expensive but if there is someone local I'm in the greater Cleveland, OH area. -Henry --===============1131823116418740117==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Thu Mar 23 14:55:03 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LSI-11 Console-ODT Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 14:54:56 +0000 Message-ID: <20c54366836342398366c0b6e679909a@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> In-Reply-To: <001e01d95d91$1b72a6c0$5257f440$@kpnmail.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4510302716095367140==" --===============4510302716095367140== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The detail of each monitor (11/03, 11/23+, KXT-11) differs, and the LSI-11/03= was an early design. However, some monitor source code is available and will provide definitive an= swers; see e.g.=20 - http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1121/EK-KXTCA-HR-001_KXT11= -CA_ROM_Listing_198406.pdf - http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/t11/ Also, some bootloaders (M9312 is a good exemplar) and ODT provide similar beh= aviour; see e.g. - https://gunkies.org/wiki/M9312_ROM - https://ak6dn.github.io/PDP-11/M9312/ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-line_Debugging_Tool - http://www.bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-XPTSA-A-D= %20PDP-11%20Paper%20Tape%20Software%20Programming%20Handbook.pdf - http://www.vaxhaven.com/Paper_Tape_Archive esp DEC-11-UODPA-A-PB.ptap In each case it's a matter of reading the listings, source or binary code - o= r the documentation. Martin -----Original Message----- From: jos.fries--- via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 23 March 2023 14:10 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: jos.fries(a)kpnmail.nl Subject: [cctalk] LSI-11 Console-ODT For my LSI-11 simulator I developed an as accurate as possible implementation= of the Console-ODT functionality as described in the "LSI11 PDP11/03 Processor Handbook" and the "Microcomputer and Memories Handbook". As might be expected from these handbooks, the description of the ODT functio= nality is not a complete specification and consequently during the developmen= t several questions arose on the reaction of ODT on the user input, such as: - What is the reaction on commands like "R0/RS/4@"? Will the last opened = location be opened or the contents of the last opened location? - What is the reaction on a RUBOUT at the prompt? - What will be the value of the opened location when e.g. three digits are en= tered and these three digits are then rubbed out and the location is closed? = Will the value of the last opened location be unchanged or will it be zero? - An address and a GO command can be separated by a semicolon. What is the re= action if characters other than the "G" are typed after the semicolon? - Etc., etc... Is there someone in (the vicinity of) the Netherlands with a functioning LSI-11 who would allow me to try out these commands or could anyone point me = to someone who could facilitate that? I developed a complete test script for all LSI-11 ODT commands and "all" relevant situations and ideally I would like to carry out this test script to= get a complete specification of the Console-ODT functionality. Regards, Jos --===============4510302716095367140==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Thu Mar 23 16:21:11 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LSI-11 Console-ODT Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 11:20:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001e01d95d91$1b72a6c0$5257f440$@kpnmail.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8053290377086631049==" --===============8053290377086631049== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have an 11/03 and could do a screen share and run your script. Contact me off-list or on the ccmp discord. -Eric On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 9:21 AM jos.fries--- via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > For my LSI-11 simulator I developed an as accurate as possible > implementation of the Console-ODT functionality as described in the "LSI11 > PDP11/03 Processor Handbook" and the "Microcomputer and Memories Handbook". > As might be expected from these handbooks, the description of the ODT > functionality is not a complete specification and consequently during the > development several questions arose on the reaction of ODT on the user > input, such as: > > - What is the reaction on commands like "R0/RS/4@"? Will the last > opened > location be opened or the contents of the last opened location? > - What is the reaction on a RUBOUT at the prompt? > - What will be the value of the opened location when e.g. three digits are > entered and these three digits are then rubbed out and the location is > closed? Will the value of the last opened location be unchanged or will it > be zero? > - An address and a GO command can be separated by a semicolon. What is the > reaction if characters other than the "G" are typed after the semicolon? > - Etc., etc... > > Is there someone in (the vicinity of) the Netherlands with a functioning > LSI-11 who would allow me to try out these commands or could anyone point > me > to someone who could facilitate that? > > I developed a complete test script for all LSI-11 ODT commands and "all" > relevant situations and ideally I would like to carry out this test script > to get a complete specification of the Console-ODT functionality. > > Regards, > > Jos > > --===============8053290377086631049==-- From daniel@w1ngselectronics.com Thu Mar 23 16:22:06 2023 From: Daniel Daigle To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Nuking an MFM drive with a magnet, format/servo gone? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 16:22:01 +0000 Message-ID: <167958852162.1516385.1972083025920271476@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2204168338754419294==" --===============2204168338754419294== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Old MFM/RLL drives with stepper positioners generally have no servo. The same= can't be said of voice-coil positioned drives; they could use any means, inc= luding hardware optical servos, etc. but often used a surface and a head for = that purpose... so yes, you can render one of these drives useless with a mag= net if yours has a servo surface. (This is not the same as embedded servo, wh= ich places servo information -with- the data on the same surfaces.) --===============2204168338754419294==-- From daniel@w1ngselectronics.com Thu Mar 23 16:22:51 2023 From: Daniel Daigle To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LSI-11 Console-ODT Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 16:22:47 +0000 Message-ID: <167958856750.1516385.5780810768933418071@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <001e01d95d91$1b72a6c0$5257f440$@kpnmail.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8488390667768965717==" --===============8488390667768965717== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm nowhere near you, but if you wish, I can set it up so that you can TELNET= to my LSI-11 and use its ODT. --===============8488390667768965717==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Fri Mar 24 14:37:34 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Nuking an MFM drive with a magnet, format/servo gone? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 16:52:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167958852162.1516385.1972083025920271476@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1124681218509460927==" --===============1124681218509460927== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking from experience with an old RD54, yep. Put a magnet on the=20 outside case towards the bottom, spin the drive up and it's gone forever. On 3/23/2023 12:22 PM, Daniel Daigle via cctalk wrote: > Old MFM/RLL drives with stepper positioners generally have no servo. The sa= me can't be said of voice-coil positioned drives; they could use any means, i= ncluding hardware optical servos, etc. but often used a surface and a head fo= r that purpose... so yes, you can render one of these drives useless with a m= agnet if yours has a servo surface. (This is not the same as embedded servo, = which places servo information -with- the data on the same surfaces.) --===============1124681218509460927==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Fri Mar 24 19:06:43 2023 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Nuking an MFM drive with a magnet, format/servo gone? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 11:58:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000001d95e82$9f03dc10$dd0b9430$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1537007643742487715==" --===============1537007643742487715== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well the data are still there and could be retrieved with a sophisticated ser= vo on data system and/or a probe head on the data surfaces. Simpler to hit the spindle motor top dead center with a very large hammer rui= ning the bearings and crashing a few heads in the process. Even then the data are still there so nothing beats a multi-pass full disk wi= pe -----Original Message----- From: Chris Zach [mailto:cz(a)beaker.crystel.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2023 9:53 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Nuking an MFM drive with a magnet, format/servo gone? Speaking from experience with an old RD54, yep. Put a magnet on the outside c= ase towards the bottom, spin the drive up and it's gone forever. On 3/23/2023 12:22 PM, Daniel Daigle via cctalk wrote: > Old MFM/RLL drives with stepper positioners generally have no servo.=20 > The same can't be said of voice-coil positioned drives; they could use=20 > any means, including hardware optical servos, etc. but often used a=20 > surface and a head for that purpose... so yes, you can render one of=20 > these drives useless with a magnet if yours has a servo surface. (This=20 > is not the same as embedded servo, which places servo information=20 > -with- the data on the same surfaces.) --===============1537007643742487715==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Mar 24 19:17:28 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Nuking an MFM drive with a magnet, format/servo gone? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 12:17:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001d95e82$9f03dc10$dd0b9430$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6289847378124914659==" --===============6289847378124914659== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 24 Mar 2023, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Well the data are still there and could be retrieved with a sophisticated s= ervo on data system and/or a probe head on the data surfaces. > Simpler to hit the spindle motor top dead center with a very large hammer r= uining the bearings and crashing a few heads in the process. > Even then the data are still there so nothing beats a multi-pass full disk = wipe > * Mr. Drill Press enter the chat * :) g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6289847378124914659==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Mar 24 19:35:58 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: Working IBM 9401-150 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 15:35:41 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4114052288840379559==" --===============4114052288840379559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a 620. Big. On Tue, Mar 21, 2023, 12:58 PM devin davison via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a 170. Im in melbourne fl. > > I have been unable to move it, its in my living room, but you would need to > load it into the car. It ipl's to a working install, but not sure what > version. Sold off all my twinax terminals a while back. > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2023, 10:14 AM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Well, I say a 170 would work too but power consumption is another reason > I > > have been looking at the -150. > > > > -Peter > > > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 9:53 AM Peter Ekstrom > wrote: > > > > > Hi Yvan, > > > > > > I am looking for one to add to my collection of toys. Purely as a hobby > > > item so I'm mainly thinking of keeping cost down, I'm also thinking of > > > licensing and such. > > > The 150 doesn't require a license from what I have read. Although I > > > wouldn't turn down a 170 with a proper license if the price is right. > :) > > > > > > -Peter > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 9:46 AM Yvan Janssens wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Peter, > > >> > > >> Is there any particular reason why you need a model 150? > > >> > > >> Depending on your needs, you might be better off with eg a -170; a > -170 > > >> will support the same software stack and will be significantly faster. > > >> > > >> Are you stuck with relying on Advanced/36 or similar? > > >> > > >> /y > > >> > > >> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 at 14:42, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Hello everyone, > > >>> > > >>> First time posting here... > > >>> > > >>> I am wondering if anyone knows of someone looking to get rid of a > > working > > >>> (preferably) IBM AS/400e 9401-150? For local pickup it would need to > be > > >>> around the Atlanta, GA area in the US. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks! > > >>> -Peter > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent using CompuServe 1.22 > > >> > > >> > > > --===============4114052288840379559==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 24 19:43:07 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Nuking an MFM drive with a magnet, format/servo gone? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 12:42:52 -0700 Message-ID: <42658d11-c43c-1a7f-910c-903d39944315@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6133345797029253831==" --===============6133345797029253831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/24/23 12:17, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 24 Mar 2023, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > >> Well the data are still there and could be retrieved with a >> sophisticated servo on data system and/or a probe head on the data >> surfaces. >> Simpler to hit the spindle motor top dead center with a very large >> hammer ruining the bearings and crashing a few heads in the process. >> Even then the data are still there so nothing beats a multi-pass full >> disk wipe Tossing one into a burning slash pile works well, also. Melts that Zamac, it does. Don't ask me how I know. --Chuck --===============6133345797029253831==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Mar 24 19:51:50 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Nuking an MFM drive with a magnet, format/servo gone? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 12:51:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7912673575202041560==" --===============7912673575202041560== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Mar 24, 2023 at 12:17 PM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 24 Mar 2023, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > > Well the data are still there and could be retrieved with a > sophisticated servo on data system and/or a probe head on the data surfaces. > > Simpler to hit the spindle motor top dead center with a very large > hammer ruining the bearings and crashing a few heads in the process. > > Even then the data are still there so nothing beats a multi-pass full > disk wipe > > > > * Mr. Drill Press enter the chat * > The data is still where the holes aren't though ;) Sellam --===============7912673575202041560==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Fri Mar 24 20:06:15 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wanted PDP-11 Paper Tape Software Source Tape Images Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 20:02:30 +0000 Message-ID: <7b8478f7bfd34ce2a0e80df19f2189ed@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4854192181381848358==" --===============4854192181381848358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the suggestion http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp11gui My usual first stop for program sources and images is http://www.bitsavers.or= g/bits/DEC/mixed_media/ and the more obvious http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DE= C/pdp11/ Other repositories I'm acquaint with include: http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm=20 https://www.pcjs.org/software/dec/pdp11/tapes/=20 http://pdp-11.trailing-edge.com/www/freewareFAQ.html https://www.pdp-11.nl/ https://ak6dn.github.io/PDP-11/ If there are other places I should look, my ears and eyes are open : esp for = PDP-11 native assembler source code Martin -----Original Message----- From: Bill Degnan via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 21 March 2023 13:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wanted PDP-11 Paper Tape Software Source Tape Images search for PDPGUI software. This is a good place to start to look for papert= apes. Bill On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 7:39=E2=80=AFAM Martin Bishop via cctalk < cctalk(a)c= lassiccmp.org> wrote: > Can anyone point me to the source paper tapes for the classic Paper=20 > Tape Software programmes packages ? > > The IOX, ODT, FPMP and loader/dumper source paper tapes [e.g. > DEC-11-XIOXA-A-PA1 & 2] are on bit savers, but those for the=20 > assemblers / linkers seem not to be. > > That the assembler / linker sources were distributed is attested by=20 > the 1970's software catalogs; from their evident rarity I infer=20 > purchases were uncommon. > > While any archive of -PA tapes is of interest, those I'm particularly=20 > seeking are: > > - DEC-11-UPLAA-A-PA1 to 12 PAL-11A (8k) (V007A) Source PTs [~=3D ASXA] > > - DEC-11-ASPA-PA1 to 11 PAL-11A (4k) (V002A) Source PTs [~=3D ASPA] > > - DEC-11-XIXLA-A-PA1 & 2 IOX LPT (V004A) Source PTs > > - DEC-11ULKSA-A-PA1 to 6 Link11S (V002A) Source PTs > > - also PAL11S sources, however they are not listed in the catalogs > > Equally, listings would be of value, e.g.: > > - DEC-11-ASPA-LA PAL-11A (V002A) (4k) Listing > > Electronic copies are all I require, although if someone has a=20 > cupboard full of untranscribed physical paper tapes I could oblige. > > Yours in anticipation of being able to, hopefully, add the EIS=20 > instructions to PAL-11A's repertoire. > Martin > > > --===============4854192181381848358==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Fri Mar 24 20:32:08 2023 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: Working IBM 9401-150 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 16:31:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2360307442907295322==" --===============2360307442907295322== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Devin, Wish I had seen this earlier. One popped up right after I posted this and I snagged it. It is going to need a little work but I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty. -Peter On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 12:58 PM devin davison via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a 170. Im in melbourne fl. > > I have been unable to move it, its in my living room, but you would need to > load it into the car. It ipl's to a working install, but not sure what > version. Sold off all my twinax terminals a while back. > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2023, 10:14 AM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Well, I say a 170 would work too but power consumption is another reason > I > > have been looking at the -150. > > > > -Peter > > > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 9:53 AM Peter Ekstrom > wrote: > > > > > Hi Yvan, > > > > > > I am looking for one to add to my collection of toys. Purely as a hobby > > > item so I'm mainly thinking of keeping cost down, I'm also thinking of > > > licensing and such. > > > The 150 doesn't require a license from what I have read. Although I > > > wouldn't turn down a 170 with a proper license if the price is right. > :) > > > > > > -Peter > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 9:46 AM Yvan Janssens wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Peter, > > >> > > >> Is there any particular reason why you need a model 150? > > >> > > >> Depending on your needs, you might be better off with eg a -170; a > -170 > > >> will support the same software stack and will be significantly faster. > > >> > > >> Are you stuck with relying on Advanced/36 or similar? > > >> > > >> /y > > >> > > >> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 at 14:42, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Hello everyone, > > >>> > > >>> First time posting here... > > >>> > > >>> I am wondering if anyone knows of someone looking to get rid of a > > working > > >>> (preferably) IBM AS/400e 9401-150? For local pickup it would need to > be > > >>> around the Atlanta, GA area in the US. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks! > > >>> -Peter > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent using CompuServe 1.22 > > >> > > >> > > > --===============2360307442907295322==-- From steven@malikoff.com Sat Mar 25 02:26:49 2023 From: steven@malikoff.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Cards in the PDP-11/05 just sold on eBay Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 12:26:44 +1000 Message-ID: <7137d97fe229251843d41664abec2330.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8244051778704019244==" --===============8244051778704019244== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable G'day all, Just followed the sale of the 11/05 on eBay (#175655196586) that ended a sh= ort time ago. It's a remarkably clean and complete machine and am not surprised at the hamm= er price. I was curious what the quad-height card with two ribbon cables coming out the= sides was? It appears to have a couple leads as well, presumably going to the single-hei= ght board. Some sort of TTY interface? I presume non-DEC from the nylon handles. Steve --===============8244051778704019244==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Sat Mar 25 05:24:05 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Sun/Tronic House Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 22:23:17 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2341179461961291179==" --===============2341179461961291179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi. I came across an article about the "Sun/Tronic House" in the July/August = 1981 issue of Computers and Programming magazine. The article references the Apple 2 as the computer that controls everything i= n the house that also relies on solar energy. The house, per the article, is (or was) in Greenwich, Connecticut. I also fou= nd a photo of the house at https://www.1000bit.it/storia/apple/suntronic_hous= e.asp I am curious to know if the house and the Apple IIs are still there. Anyone h= as a clue? (A copy of the magazine is at https://archive.org/details/sim_computers-and-p= rogramming_july-august-1981_21_4 page 38). -- Regards, Tarek Hoteit --===============2341179461961291179==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sat Mar 25 09:06:59 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Nuking an MFM drive with a magnet, format/servo gone? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 15:36:16 -0400 Message-ID: <1cc62193-71d5-b5cd-31bd-6b4947acbce1@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4290448698427200814==" --===============4290448698427200814== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > * Mr. Drill Press enter the chat * Mrs. Dectape laughs at your attempts :-) C > > :) > > g. > --===============4290448698427200814==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Mar 25 13:34:42 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Cards in the PDP-11/05 just sold on eBay Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 09:34:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7137d97fe229251843d41664abec2330.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3122835214702164933==" --===============3122835214702164933== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I checked, not sure. I have worked on two of those for the old MARCH club before it became VCFed. Did not remember that board, but it could be an internal from panel board, or a ROM bootstrap board for a peripheral Bill On Fri, Mar 24, 2023, 10:27 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > G'day all, > Just followed the sale of the 11/05 on eBay (#175655196586) that ended a > short time ago. > It's a remarkably clean and complete machine and am not surprised at the > hammer price. > > I was curious what the quad-height card with two ribbon cables coming out > the sides was? > It appears to have a couple leads as well, presumably going to the > single-height board. > Some sort of TTY interface? I presume non-DEC from the nylon handles. > > Steve > > --===============3122835214702164933==-- From frank@tuccio.net Sat Mar 25 18:15:47 2023 From: Frank Tuccio To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] RIP Gordan Moore Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 13:58:34 -0400 Message-ID: <001501d95f43$6bc85940$43590bc0$@tuccio.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4417811640357934534==" --===============4417811640357934534== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With great sadness, the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation announces the passing of our founder, Gordon Moore. https://www.moore.org/article-detail?newsUrlName=in-memoriam-gordon-moore-19 29-2023 Frank Tuccio frank(a)tuccio.net --===============4417811640357934534==-- From jon@jonworld.com Sat Mar 25 19:57:59 2023 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Vermont Research Solid State Storage Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 19:57:45 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2275458469787237689==" --===============2275458469787237689== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone! Does anyone have documentation for a Vermont Research K2 Solid State Storage device? Looks like it emulates a CDC Lark. But it may also be configurable for other devices? Thanks! -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============2275458469787237689==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Mar 25 20:06:31 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RIP Gordan Moore Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 13:01:11 -0700 Message-ID: <1db5e778-34bb-466d-bcf8-50cfee7c2b2f@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <001501d95f43$6bc85940$43590bc0$@tuccio.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9046362480467181647==" --===============9046362480467181647== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/25/23 10:58, Frank Tuccio via cctalk wrote: > With great sadness, the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation announces the > passing of our founder, Gordon Moore. Would that we all could see our 94th birthday! --Chuck --===============9046362480467181647==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Mar 25 22:17:10 2023 From: Wayne Sudol To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sun/Tronic House Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:17:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3099226094220324447==" --===============3099226094220324447== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe try Google Earth to see? Do you know the address? The archive.org mag won't display page 38 unless you have an account. -----Original Message----- From: Tarek Hoteit via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, March 24, 2023 10:23 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Tarek Hoteit Subject: [cctalk] Sun/Tronic House Hi. I came across an article about the "Sun/Tronic House" in the July/August 1981 issue of Computers and Programming magazine. The article references the Apple 2 as the computer that controls everything in the house that also relies on solar energy. The house, per the article, is (or was) in Greenwich, Connecticut. I also found a photo of the house at https://www.1000bit.it/storia/apple/suntronic_house.asp I am curious to know if the house and the Apple IIs are still there. Anyone has a clue? (A copy of the magazine is at https://archive.org/details/sim_computers-and-programming_july-august-1981_2 1_4 page 38). -- Regards, Tarek Hoteit --===============3099226094220324447==-- From Michael@jongleur.co.uk Sat Mar 25 22:37:46 2023 From: Michael Mulhern To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Systron-Donner Block Programming Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:37:29 +1100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0047083589080579711==" --===============0047083589080579711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If anybody is interested in Systron-Donner Corporation, this booklet on =E2= =80=9CBlock Programming For Physical Systems=E2=80=9D was in a recent acquisition. Available at: https://archive.org/details/bpfps Michael. --=20 *Blog: RetroRetrospective =E2=80=93 Fun today with yesterday's gear=E2=80=A6= =E2=80=A6.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) --===============0047083589080579711==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Sat Mar 25 22:44:52 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Systron-Donner Block Programming Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 22:44:46 +0000 Message-ID: <2063749872.419548.1679784286140@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4538006969630310804==" --===============4538006969630310804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael - most excellent as we have analog computers in the museums displays= made by them!!! thanks Ed Sharpe - Archivist for SMECC=C2=A0 - Arizona=C2=A0 In a message dated 3/25/2023 3:37:46 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk(a)c= lassiccmp.org writes:=C2=A0 If anybody is interested in Systron-Donner Corporation, this booklet on =E2= =80=9CBlockProgramming For Physical Systems=E2=80=9D was in a recent acquisit= ion.=C2=A0Available at: https://archive.org/details/bpfps=C2=A0Michael.-- =C2= =A0=C2=A0*Blog: RetroRetrospective =E2=80=93 Fun today with yesterday's gear= =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6..**Podcast*: *Retro Comp= uting Roundtable * (Co-Host) --===============4538006969630310804==-- From Michael@jongleur.co.uk Sun Mar 26 00:12:51 2023 From: Michael Mulhern To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Personal Calculator =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=9CEntertainment?= =?utf-8?b?4oCd?= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 11:12:33 +1100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6915565722119165972==" --===============6915565722119165972== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Another recent acquisition is for all your handheld calculator enthusiasts. From 1975 here is “How To Entertain With Your Pocket Calculator” Click to: https://archive.org/details/htewypc Michael. -- *Blog: RetroRetrospective – Fun today with yesterday's gear…….. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) --===============6915565722119165972==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Sun Mar 26 01:46:46 2023 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Death of G. Moore Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 21:46:30 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0937186279315847969==" --===============0937186279315847969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Legendary discoverer of Moore's Law Gordon Moore passed away. Whether it truly is a 'law' is debatable but its effect on microprocessor development is hard to deny. Our industry/hobby or interest was built on a technology G. Moore helped to develop. Happy computing! Murray 🙂 --===============0937186279315847969==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Mar 26 02:19:48 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of G. Moore Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 19:19:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1765302943264892226==" --===============1765302943264892226== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How can we have "Happy Computing!", when amount of memory, speed, and chip density will no longer double every eighteen months? With Moore gone, who will enforce his law? Hardware will no longer be able to keep pace with software, particularly Windoze, whose requirements continue to double. Unlike Boyle's Law, software over-expands, to overfill all available space. Calling Moore's prediction a "law" was whimsical humor., like "Murphy's Law". It is an observation. But, systems programmers treated it as a guideline, and specification, so that every eighteen months, the operating system would have to require twice as much resources. And, the hardware builders came to rely on that. How do you force people to replace a perfectly good working computer with a new model of Dell, unless you DISCONTINUE the operating system, and replace it with one with new and additional resource requirements? All Intel based products should go dark for one clock cycle. (unlike Nixon's death, where we had eighteen and a half minutes of silence) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Legendary discoverer of Moore's Law Gordon Moore passed away. Whether it > truly is a 'law' is debatable but its effect on microprocessor development > is hard to deny. Our industry/hobby or interest was built on a technology > G. Moore helped to develop. > > Happy computing! > > Murray 🙂 --===============1765302943264892226==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Mar 26 02:46:33 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Death of G. Moore Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 19:46:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8494382959615491920==" --===============8494382959615491920== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 7:19=E2=80=AFPM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > All Intel based products should go dark for one clock cycle. (unlike One clock cycle is very RISCy. With Intel you'd need at least 5 to execute the same solemn silence. Nixon's death, where we had eighteen and a half minutes of silence) > He was framed. Sellam --===============8494382959615491920==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Mar 26 19:33:19 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] ATA-3 50-pin IDE Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 14:33:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7471058632963474287==" --===============7471058632963474287== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anyone familiar with the 50-pin IDE interface, which I think is called ATA-3? It is from around 1997-2002. Normally IDE is 40-pin, or in laptops might be a 44-pin. But in a COMPAQ Presario 1220, I've come across its hard drive that is using this 50-pin interface (two rows of 25-pin that are quite small/tightly spaced - moreso than even PCMCIA). I believe it is different (electrically) than the 1.8" 50-pin interface. I ordered a CF-to-50-pin adapter that is intended for those 1.8" drives, and it won't work on this ATA-2 port (system won't boot with it inserted). However, all my CF cards are larger than 2GB - so I'm not sure if that was the issue (don't think so, I think even with 8GB or larger it would still at least try to boot). The 2GB drive in this Presario (with the "weird' 50-pin IDE) contains Windows ME and Office 2000. That's cute, but I'm not so interested in that - I was hoping to image that drive for archive, then install something else (OS2). But I can't find any "ATA-3 to normal 40-pin IDE" adapter. I think the "6 extra pins" on this 50-pin (relative to normal 44-pin laptop drives of those days) -- 2 of those pins (5-6) aren't used (maybe a kind of key) and the 4 others (1-4) are vendor specific. So I may just be out of luck here in upgrading or replacing this drive with a more modern solution. But wanted to run it by the crew here before giving up. Thanks, -Steve / v* --===============7471058632963474287==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sun Mar 26 19:53:15 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ATA-3 50-pin IDE Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 21:52:57 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5430986056233136504==" --===============5430986056233136504== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 50 pin is usually SCSI.... I've never heard of an Ata standard that did that... 44 pin laptop was just 40 pin + power (and maybe cable select, I forget). There was an 80 pin cable standard, but that used 40 pin headers and special connectors to do primary/secondary better/faster especially for dma... So if it is ATA, I'm very curious to see what I missed back in the 90s... Warner On Sun, Mar 26, 2023, 9:33 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Is anyone familiar with the 50-pin IDE interface, which I think is called > ATA-3? It is from around 1997-2002. Normally IDE is 40-pin, or in > laptops might be a 44-pin. > > But in a COMPAQ Presario 1220, I've come across its hard drive that is > using this 50-pin interface (two rows of 25-pin that are quite > small/tightly spaced - moreso than even PCMCIA). > > I believe it is different (electrically) than the 1.8" 50-pin interface. I > ordered a CF-to-50-pin adapter that is intended for those 1.8" drives, and > it won't work on this ATA-2 port (system won't boot with it inserted). > However, all my CF cards are larger than 2GB - so I'm not sure if that was > the issue (don't think so, I think even with 8GB or larger it would still > at least try to boot). > > > The 2GB drive in this Presario (with the "weird' 50-pin IDE) contains > Windows ME and Office 2000. That's cute, but I'm not so interested in that > - I was hoping to image that drive for archive, then install something else > (OS2). But I can't find any "ATA-3 to normal 40-pin IDE" adapter. > > I think the "6 extra pins" on this 50-pin (relative to normal 44-pin laptop > drives of those days) -- 2 of those pins (5-6) aren't used (maybe a kind of > key) and the 4 others (1-4) are vendor specific. So I may just be out of > luck here in upgrading or replacing this drive with a more modern > solution. But wanted to run it by the crew here before giving up. > > Thanks, > > -Steve / v* > --===============5430986056233136504==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Sun Mar 26 19:54:36 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ATA-3 50-pin IDE Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 15:54:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0532953285448345098==" --===============0532953285448345098== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 at 15:33, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Is anyone familiar with the 50-pin IDE interface, which I think is called > ATA-3? It is from around 1997-2002. Normally IDE is 40-pin, or in > laptops might be a 44-pin. > > But in a COMPAQ Presario 1220, I've come across its hard drive that is > using this 50-pin interface (two rows of 25-pin that are quite > small/tightly spaced - moreso than even PCMCIA). > > Hi Steve, I have a vague memory of seeing one of those drives in a contemporary setting but that was quite some time ago. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with this specific laptop line though I did find a link to the parts listing: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/273186/Hp-Compaq-Presario-Presario-1200.htm= l?page=3D3#manual . That only lists potential drive spares, though that might be of use when trying to track down a pinout. Sorry I couldn't have been of more help. -Henry --===============0532953285448345098==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Mar 26 20:14:42 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ATA-3 50-pin IDE Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 13:14:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6796844919231504748==" --===============6796844919231504748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weren't many slimline CD-ROM/DVD drives 50 pin ATA? I've got one such in an HP ePC (P3) box. https://www.bixmart.com/Internal-Slim-50-Pin-PATA-DVD-Writer-Drive--8X-Double= -Layer-_p_34.html --Chuck --===============6796844919231504748==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Sun Mar 26 20:20:10 2023 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ATA-3 50-pin IDE Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:20:04 -0300 Message-ID: <1e0e574e-49ed-0780-1390-52b573d5dc1c@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0605455026730684694==" --===============0605455026730684694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have seen lots of laptop drives that would fit a 50 pin connector that is about 2mm pitch  Looking at the back of the drive from the left there are 44 pins in a group then 2 pins missing and the remaining 4 are for selecting master and slave. Paul. On 2023-03-26 4:33 p.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Is anyone familiar with the 50-pin IDE interface, which I think is called > ATA-3? It is from around 1997-2002. Normally IDE is 40-pin, or in > laptops might be a 44-pin. > > But in a COMPAQ Presario 1220, I've come across its hard drive that is > using this 50-pin interface (two rows of 25-pin that are quite > small/tightly spaced - moreso than even PCMCIA). > > I believe it is different (electrically) than the 1.8" 50-pin interface. I > ordered a CF-to-50-pin adapter that is intended for those 1.8" drives, and > it won't work on this ATA-2 port (system won't boot with it inserted). > However, all my CF cards are larger than 2GB - so I'm not sure if that was > the issue (don't think so, I think even with 8GB or larger it would still > at least try to boot). > > > The 2GB drive in this Presario (with the "weird' 50-pin IDE) contains > Windows ME and Office 2000. That's cute, but I'm not so interested in that > - I was hoping to image that drive for archive, then install something else > (OS2). But I can't find any "ATA-3 to normal 40-pin IDE" adapter. > > I think the "6 extra pins" on this 50-pin (relative to normal 44-pin laptop > drives of those days) -- 2 of those pins (5-6) aren't used (maybe a kind of > key) and the 4 others (1-4) are vendor specific. So I may just be out of > luck here in upgrading or replacing this drive with a more modern > solution. But wanted to run it by the crew here before giving up. > > Thanks, > > -Steve / v* --===============0605455026730684694==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun Mar 26 20:22:50 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ATA-3 50-pin IDE Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 20:22:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1e0e574e-49ed-0780-1390-52b573d5dc1c@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5577106020275382448==" --===============5577106020275382448== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can you post a picture somewhere? Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 26, 2023, at 13:20, Paul Berger via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI have seen lots of laptop drives that would fit a 50 pin connecto= r that is about 2mm pitch Looking at the back of the drive from the left the= re are 44 pins in a group then 2 pins missing and the remaining 4 are for sel= ecting master and slave. >=20 > Paul. >=20 >> On 2023-03-26 4:33 p.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >> Is anyone familiar with the 50-pin IDE interface, which I think is called >> ATA-3? It is from around 1997-2002. Normally IDE is 40-pin, or in >> laptops might be a 44-pin. >>=20 >> But in a COMPAQ Presario 1220, I've come across its hard drive that is >> using this 50-pin interface (two rows of 25-pin that are quite >> small/tightly spaced - moreso than even PCMCIA). >>=20 >> I believe it is different (electrically) than the 1.8" 50-pin interface. I >> ordered a CF-to-50-pin adapter that is intended for those 1.8" drives, and >> it won't work on this ATA-2 port (system won't boot with it inserted). >> However, all my CF cards are larger than 2GB - so I'm not sure if that was >> the issue (don't think so, I think even with 8GB or larger it would still >> at least try to boot). >>=20 >>=20 >> The 2GB drive in this Presario (with the "weird' 50-pin IDE) contains >> Windows ME and Office 2000. That's cute, but I'm not so interested in that >> - I was hoping to image that drive for archive, then install something else >> (OS2). But I can't find any "ATA-3 to normal 40-pin IDE" adapter. >>=20 >> I think the "6 extra pins" on this 50-pin (relative to normal 44-pin laptop >> drives of those days) -- 2 of those pins (5-6) aren't used (maybe a kind of >> key) and the 4 others (1-4) are vendor specific. So I may just be out of >> luck here in upgrading or replacing this drive with a more modern >> solution. But wanted to run it by the crew here before giving up. >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> -Steve / v* --===============5577106020275382448==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Mar 26 20:33:12 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ATA-3 50-pin IDE Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 15:32:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21814D6AB9A839241EB605EFE48A9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4236603251202409539==" --===============4236603251202409539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Picture is on the VCF discussion here: 50-pin ATA to 44-pin ATA conversion options | Vintage Computer Federation Forums (vcfed.org) https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/50-pin-ata-to-44-pin-ata-conversion= -options.1242427/#post-1307018 I could be wrong, maybe it is a SCSI interface. On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 3:22=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Can you post a picture somewhere? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 26, 2023, at 13:20, Paul Berger via cctalk > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFI have seen lots of laptop drives that would fit a 50 pin connec= tor > that is about 2mm pitch Looking at the back of the drive from the left > there are 44 pins in a group then 2 pins missing and the remaining 4 are > for selecting master and slave. > > > > Paul. > > > >> On 2023-03-26 4:33 p.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > >> Is anyone familiar with the 50-pin IDE interface, which I think is > called > >> ATA-3? It is from around 1997-2002. Normally IDE is 40-pin, or in > >> laptops might be a 44-pin. > >> > >> But in a COMPAQ Presario 1220, I've come across its hard drive that is > >> using this 50-pin interface (two rows of 25-pin that are quite > >> small/tightly spaced - moreso than even PCMCIA). > >> > >> I believe it is different (electrically) than the 1.8" 50-pin > interface. I > >> ordered a CF-to-50-pin adapter that is intended for those 1.8" drives, > and > >> it won't work on this ATA-2 port (system won't boot with it inserted). > >> However, all my CF cards are larger than 2GB - so I'm not sure if that > was > >> the issue (don't think so, I think even with 8GB or larger it would > still > >> at least try to boot). > >> > >> > >> The 2GB drive in this Presario (with the "weird' 50-pin IDE) contains > >> Windows ME and Office 2000. That's cute, but I'm not so interested in > that > >> - I was hoping to image that drive for archive, then install something > else > >> (OS2). But I can't find any "ATA-3 to normal 40-pin IDE" adapter. > >> > >> I think the "6 extra pins" on this 50-pin (relative to normal 44-pin > laptop > >> drives of those days) -- 2 of those pins (5-6) aren't used (maybe a > kind of > >> key) and the 4 others (1-4) are vendor specific. So I may just be out > of > >> luck here in upgrading or replacing this drive with a more modern > >> solution. But wanted to run it by the crew here before giving up. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> -Steve / v* > --===============4236603251202409539==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Sun Mar 26 20:40:46 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fortran question for Unix System-5 r3 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 16:40:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2142148133870790527==" --===============2142148133870790527== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Fortran question for Unix System-5 r3. When executing fortran programs requiring "input" the screen will show a blank screen. After entering input anyway the program completes under Unix System V *r3*. When the same program is compiled under Unix System V *r1* it works as expected. The user sees the prompt. Sounds like on Unix System V *r3* the output buffer is not being flushed. I tried re-compiling F77. No help. Is it possible to check the runtime libraries to see if fflush is missing? Fortran program follows: PROGRAM EASTER INTEGER YEAR,METCYC,CENTRY,ERROR1,ERROR2,DAY INTEGER EPACT,LUNA C A PROGRAM TO CALCULATE THE DATE OF EASTER PRINT '(A)',' INPUT THE YEAR FOR WHICH EASTER' PRINT '(A)',' IS TO BE CALCULATED' PRINT '(A)',' ENTER THE WHOLE YEAR, E.G. 1978 ' READ '(A)',YEAR C CALCULATING THE YEAR IN THE 19 YEAR METONIC CYCLE-METCYC METCYC = MOD(YEAR,19)+1 IF(YEAR.LE.1582)THEN DAY = (5*YEAR)/4 EPACT = MOD(11*METCYC-4,30)+1 ELSE C CALCULATING THE CENTURY-CENTRY CENTRY = (YEAR/100)+1 C ACCOUNTING FOR ARITHMETIC INACCURACIES C IGNORES LEAP YEARS ETC. ERROR1 = (3*CENTRY/4)-12 ERROR2 = ((8*CENTRY+5)/25)-5 C LOCATING SUNDAY DAY = (5*YEAR/4)-ERROR1-10 C LOCATING THE EPACT(FULL MOON) EPACT = MOD(11*METCYC+20+ERROR2-ERROR1,30) IF(EPACT.LT.0)EPACT=30+EPACT IF((EPACT.EQ.25.AND.METCYC.GT.11).OR.EPACT.EQ.24)THEN EPACT=EPACT+1 ENDIF ENDIF C FINDING THE FULL MOON LUNA=44-EPACT IF(LUNA.LT.21)THEN LUNA=LUNA+30 ENDIF C LOCATING EASTER SUNDAY LUNA=LUNA+7-(MOD(DAY+LUNA,7)) C LOCATING THE CORRECT MONTH IF(LUNA.GT.31)THEN LUNA = LUNA - 31 PRINT '(A)',' FOR THE YEAR ',YEAR PRINT '(A)',' EASTER FALLS ON APRIL ',LUNA ELSE PRINT '(A)',' FOR THE YEAR ',YEAR PRINT '(A)',' EASTER FALLS ON MARCH ',LUNA ENDIF END Any help would be appreciated, Ken -- WWL 📚 --===============2142148133870790527==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sun Mar 26 21:26:23 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ATA-3 50-pin IDE Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:26:07 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1e0e574e-49ed-0780-1390-52b573d5dc1c@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6674870112558728103==" --===============6674870112558728103== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 10:20 PM Paul Berger via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have seen lots of laptop drives that would fit a 50 pin connector that > is about 2mm pitch Looking at the back of the drive from the left there > are 44 pins in a group then 2 pins missing and the remaining 4 are for > selecting master and slave. > https://www.unitechelectronics.com/ide44pinout.gif which shows 44 pins + the '6' extra slots for cable select and keying. These are often called the '44 pin' interface... Warner > Paul. > > On 2023-03-26 4:33 p.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > Is anyone familiar with the 50-pin IDE interface, which I think is called > > ATA-3? It is from around 1997-2002. Normally IDE is 40-pin, or in > > laptops might be a 44-pin. > > > > But in a COMPAQ Presario 1220, I've come across its hard drive that is > > using this 50-pin interface (two rows of 25-pin that are quite > > small/tightly spaced - moreso than even PCMCIA). > > > > I believe it is different (electrically) than the 1.8" 50-pin > interface. I > > ordered a CF-to-50-pin adapter that is intended for those 1.8" drives, > and > > it won't work on this ATA-2 port (system won't boot with it inserted). > > However, all my CF cards are larger than 2GB - so I'm not sure if that > was > > the issue (don't think so, I think even with 8GB or larger it would still > > at least try to boot). > > > > > > The 2GB drive in this Presario (with the "weird' 50-pin IDE) contains > > Windows ME and Office 2000. That's cute, but I'm not so interested in > that > > - I was hoping to image that drive for archive, then install something > else > > (OS2). But I can't find any "ATA-3 to normal 40-pin IDE" adapter. > > > > I think the "6 extra pins" on this 50-pin (relative to normal 44-pin > laptop > > drives of those days) -- 2 of those pins (5-6) aren't used (maybe a kind > of > > key) and the 4 others (1-4) are vendor specific. So I may just be out of > > luck here in upgrading or replacing this drive with a more modern > > solution. But wanted to run it by the crew here before giving up. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Steve / v* > --===============6674870112558728103==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Mar 27 06:11:10 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:10:58 -0700 Message-ID: <007c01d96072$e68a6cb0$b39f4610$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1353115194572909860==" --===============1353115194572909860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the golden age of the floppy before its downfall caused by CD-R, CD-RW and flash USB a number of new technologies were introduced to allow for cheap removable storage (Yes MO drives existed but they were expensive). Many of the tech were a great step forward. For example the LS-240 drives from Panasonic/3M (Imation) allowed reading and writing to 120MB, 240MB, 1.44MB, and 720KB disks. They were also compatible with weird formats like IBM's XDF and even allowed the storage of 32MB on a standard 1.44MB floppy disk. To be backwards compatible they used a separate read/write head for regular floppies. However, none of the formats with backward compatibility read or wrote to 2.88MB ED disks. Anybody know why? Was it a licensing issue or the perception that ED compatibility wasn't really required or desired? Or was it technical? I am not sure if ED drives already made use of two read/write heads (one for 720/1.44 and one for 2.88) or just one? If it is the former one could see how it would be hard to have three separate read/write heads in one unit... On a separate note: was a TD (Triple Density) drive ever produced? Apparently the technology existed all the way back in 1989 and would have give 12.5MB on a standard physical sized (3.5") floppy: https://www-computerwoche-de.translate.goog/a/hitachi-maxell-bietet-nec-neue -12-5-mb-floppy-an,1155888?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wap p (original in German) -Ali --===============1353115194572909860==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Mar 27 06:18:25 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:18:20 -0700 Message-ID: <007d01d96073$ee0a7ab0$ca1f7010$@net> In-Reply-To: <007c01d96072$e68a6cb0$b39f4610$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2617972020619407473==" --===============2617972020619407473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To answer my own question apparently sun made a triple density drive: SUN 370-1420. Based on online pictures it uses a 34pin connector although I believe it is keyed differently than standard floppy drives. Also, I couldn't find any info on its capacity other than the standard 720/1.44. Any Sun enthusiasts can shed some light? -Ali > -----Original Message----- > From: Ali via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 11:11 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Cc: Ali > Subject: [cctalk] LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and > ?TD? drives > > In the golden age of the floppy before its downfall caused by CD-R, CD- > RW > and flash USB a number of new technologies were introduced to allow for > cheap removable storage (Yes MO drives existed but they were > expensive). > Many of the tech were a great step forward. For example the LS-240 > drives > from Panasonic/3M (Imation) allowed reading and writing to 120MB, > 240MB, > 1.44MB, and 720KB disks. They were also compatible with weird formats > like > IBM's XDF and even allowed the storage of 32MB on a standard 1.44MB > floppy > disk. To be backwards compatible they used a separate read/write head > for > regular floppies. However, none of the formats with backward > compatibility > read or wrote to 2.88MB ED disks. > > Anybody know why? Was it a licensing issue or the perception that ED > compatibility wasn't really required or desired? Or was it technical? I > am > not sure if ED drives already made use of two read/write heads (one for > 720/1.44 and one for 2.88) or just one? If it is the former one could > see > how it would be hard to have three separate read/write heads in one > unit... > > On a separate note: was a TD (Triple Density) drive ever produced? > Apparently the technology existed all the way back in 1989 and would > have > give 12.5MB on a standard physical sized (3.5") floppy: > https://www-computerwoche-de.translate.goog/a/hitachi-maxell-bietet- > nec-neue > -12-5-mb-floppy- > an,1155888?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wap > p (original in German) > > -Ali > > --===============2617972020619407473==-- From bear@typewritten.org Mon Mar 27 06:24:18 2023 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:23:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007d01d96073$ee0a7ab0$ca1f7010$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2244341068607663476==" --===============2244341068607663476== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 26, 2023, at 11:18 PM, Ali via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > To answer my own question apparently sun made a triple density drive: SUN > 370-1420. Based on online pictures it uses a 34pin connector although I > believe it is keyed differently than standard floppy drives. Also, I > couldn't find any info on its capacity other than the standard 720/1.44.=20 It=E2=80=99s a 1.2 MB format (360 RPM) as used in the Japanese market. ok bear. --===============2244341068607663476==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Mar 27 06:56:27 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:56:22 -0700 Message-ID: <0Lh8XB-1qCwWu2kw3-00oWoT@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2251595431596411924==" --===============2251595431596411924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >It=E2=80=99s a 1.2 MB format (360 RPM) as used in the>Japanese market.Ahh so= it is a triple mode drive not a triple density drive. Thanks! --===============2251595431596411924==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon Mar 27 07:04:00 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] QIC tape restorations (IBM 5100) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 02:03:43 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7738262910881128322==" --===============7738262910881128322== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've come across three original QIC tapes for the IBM 5100. DC300 I think, original IBM labels. They are in fair condition (the tape material itself seems fine, they are all on their reels), but the "rubbers" used to actually actuate the reels is degraded. I came across an article once on how to restore those (I think it involved gluing the rubber band directly to the ends of the media?) The three tapes are labeled as follows: 5721-XM3 THE IBM 5100 PROBLEM SOLVER LIBRARY TAPE PART NO. 1608361 E.C. NO 829643 DATE 7/29/76 (this one is in a form fitted sealed ziploc-like bag, which I haven't opened; the early magazine ads for the 5100 reference this solver library -- I assume it is a mix of BASIC and APL) 5721-EAB THE IBM 5100 BASIC COMPUTER AIDED INSTRUCTION TAPE PART NO. 1608376 E.C. NO 829482 DATE 11/13/75 VERSION 1 MOD 0 FEAT 9021 PROGRAM NO. 5721-EAB CARTRIDGE 3 OF 3 (what does FEAT mean? and sadly, I don't have cartridge 1 or 2, but I assume this is probably some BASIC code that runs some kind of tutorial about the system) TAPE PART NO. 1608705 E.C. NO 829637 DATE 1/10/77 DIAGNOSTIC CARTRIDGE. DO NOT ALTER THE CONTENTS OF THIS TAPE. (I believe when accessing the built in DCP, it has options to load and run additional diagnostics that would be contained on this tape -- I think "IMF" stuff, so it would be in native PALM machine code) Anyone interested in a restoration or any contacts to folks who have worked on QIC tape before? I have a working IBM 5100 (with working internal tape and external 5106), but I absolutely haven't tried to insert or use these tapes, and I have 0 experience in trying to extract data from raw media. I don't mind shipping them off to an expert - such as anyone who maybe can copy the data content to a new tape? (which I know is probably some specialized equipment - I probably can't self fund that, but I am interested to know what the options here might be) -Steve / v* --===============7738262910881128322==-- From tpisek@pobox.com Mon Mar 27 13:23:07 2023 From: Todd Pisek To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VAX books available Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:22:59 -0500 Message-ID: <120FA3DC-15F3-4DFE-9626-13F75A131DBC@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3182987840446273418==" --===============3182987840446273418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have the following 2 books available for the taking: VAX architecture Reference Manuals-1987 Version 4.4 VAX/VMS Internals & Data Structures Email tpisek at pobox dot com --===============3182987840446273418==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Mar 27 14:44:28 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 07:44:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007d01d96073$ee0a7ab0$ca1f7010$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3533005314786386199==" --===============3533005314786386199== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/26/23 23:18, Ali via cctalk wrote: > To answer my own question apparently sun made a triple density drive: SUN > 370-1420. Based on online pictures it uses a 34pin connector although I > believe it is keyed differently than standard floppy drives. Also, I > couldn't find any info on its capacity other than the standard 720/1.44. Any > Sun enthusiasts can shed some light? Most likely, the 3-mode drive. 8x1024 sectors on each track, giving a capacity of about 1.23MB. Many PCs of the era could also handle the drives, which would change spindle speed from 300 to 360 RPM. 3 mode drives were manufactured right up until the end, but usually were configured as 2-mode (720/1.44) unless jumpering changes were made to the drive. As an example, consider the very popular Samsung SFB-321B drive. Used in many PCs; the OEM data sheet should still be online describing the jumper changes. But Teac FD321HG and some HF drives could be made to do the same trick, as well as Mitsubishi and Canon drives that I've worked with. I don't know if the Mitsumis could do it also, but it wouldn't surprise me. Many USB floppy drives will also handle 3-mode media and I believe that Windows NT supported it right from at least 4.0. The 1.23MB format was very popular in Japan, originating, I believe, with NEC, who had the idea that all floppies should mimic the 8" drives. Simplified things quite a bit. Since Japan was also dominant in CNC PLCs, you'll find that the 1.23M format is one used by Mitsubishi/Mazak on much of their gear. --Chuck --===============3533005314786386199==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Mar 27 14:49:43 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 07:49:32 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007c01d96072$e68a6cb0$b39f4610$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6409562190920440931==" --===============6409562190920440931== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/26/23 23:10, Ali via cctalk wrote: > In the golden age of the floppy before its downfall caused by CD-R, CD-RW > and flash USB a number of new technologies were introduced to allow for > cheap removable storage (Yes MO drives existed but they were expensive). > Many of the tech were a great step forward. For example the LS-240 drives > from Panasonic/3M (Imation) allowed reading and writing to 120MB, 240MB, > 1.44MB, and 720KB disks. They were also compatible with weird formats like > IBM's XDF and even allowed the storage of 32MB on a standard 1.44MB floppy > disk. To be backwards compatible they used a separate read/write head for > regular floppies. However, none of the formats with backward compatibility > read or wrote to 2.88MB ED disks. ED never caught on, I suspect because of very little bang-for-the-buck. The disks never came down very far off the $5/disk level. Too little, too late. As far as high-density floppies, there were many contenders, all failing to capture significant market share. I still have a pile of Caleb "IT" drives and disks offering 144 MB, for example. However, the LS120 drives do have a practical use--I put them in later systems with IDE connectors that would otherwise go unused (the primary-use connections are SATA), when I'm building a system into an older case that still has a place for a 3.5" floppy. Linux still recognizes the the drive. --Chuck --===============6409562190920440931==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Mar 27 14:54:56 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 10:54:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4085824219119289636==" --===============4085824219119289636== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/27/2023 10:49 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > However, the LS120 drives do have a practical use--I put them in later > systems with IDE connectors that would otherwise go unused (the > primary-use connections are SATA), when I'm building a system into an > older case that still has a place for a 3.5" floppy. Linux still > recognizes the the drive. LS120's were the most unreliable format I ever used.  Disks were frequently unreadable mere weeks after making them and the drives were so touchy even a slight bump was enough to make them unusable.  I still have one or two of the drives and a handful of disks around here somewhere but I would never consider trying to use them again. bill --===============4085824219119289636==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Mar 27 15:24:10 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:24:00 -0700 Message-ID: <0fbaf947-ac4f-ca43-1513-2a2d58e9dd92@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55808F21A8B69D2837B38EE8ED8B9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5892714695351497354==" --===============5892714695351497354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/27/23 07:54, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > LS120's were the most unreliable format I ever used.  Disks were frequently > > unreadable mere weeks after making them and the drives were so touchy > > even a slight bump was enough to make them unusable.  I still have one > > or two of the drives and a handful of disks around here somewhere but I > would I confess to never owning an authentic LS120 disk. The drives work fine for reading 1.44M 3.5" HD floppies, however--and do so at twice the speed of a legacy floppy. --Chuck --===============5892714695351497354==-- From rescue@hawkmountain.net Mon Mar 27 15:27:25 2023 From: rescue To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QIC tape restorations (IBM 5100) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 11:27:18 -0400 Message-ID: <919540fc769de37501673483975b8959@localhost> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8982314907906263829==" --===============8982314907906263829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-03-27 03:03, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > I've come across three original QIC tapes for the IBM 5100. DC300 I > think, > original IBM labels. > > They are in fair condition (the tape material itself seems fine, they > are > all on their reels), but the "rubbers" used to actually actuate the > reels > is degraded. I came across an article once on how to restore those > (I > think it involved gluing the rubber band directly to the ends of the > media?) QIC media is not glued to the bands. The band is a fixed loop that runs off the driven wheel in the cartridge, and via friction (with the media side of the tape!) operates each wheel (source and take up) and the appropriate proportional speed (based on the amount of tape on the wheels) to maintain tape tension. These bands shrink, dry out, or completely deteriorate with age (3M fairs better generally). You can take some hot water (possibly even boiling (but I haven't tried that hot)), and drop the removed band into the hot water. You will see it shrink. Then reinstall the band. The process sucks, and it can be difficult to avoid having the tape tension be too loose or too tight. If the tape was not rewound, then the magnetic surface where the band was sitting for years may likely be ruined and non recoverable. If the tape was rewound, then the spots where the band was sitting do not contain recorded material, and you have a good chance of data recovery (I use tape copy software under Linux to make an image of a tape I can write back out... used do the same on Suns years ago). I went through most of my QIC tapes and imaged them. Most tapes I recovered, some tapes I partially recovered, and only one tape was I unable to recover anything worthwhile. Having a good drive with a non deteriorated drive roller is a must. These rollers turn to goo with time. -- Curt > > The three tapes are labeled as follows: > > 5721-XM3 > THE IBM 5100 PROBLEM SOLVER LIBRARY > TAPE PART NO. 1608361 > E.C. NO 829643 DATE 7/29/76 > (this one is in a form fitted sealed ziploc-like bag, which I > haven't > opened; the early magazine ads for the 5100 reference this solver > library > -- I assume it is a mix of BASIC and APL) > > > 5721-EAB > THE IBM 5100 BASIC COMPUTER AIDED INSTRUCTION > TAPE PART NO. 1608376 > E.C. NO 829482 DATE 11/13/75 > VERSION 1 MOD 0 FEAT 9021 > PROGRAM NO. 5721-EAB CARTRIDGE 3 OF 3 > (what does FEAT mean? and sadly, I don't have cartridge 1 or 2, but I > assume this is probably some BASIC code that runs some kind of > tutorial > about the system) > > > TAPE PART NO. 1608705 > E.C. NO 829637 DATE 1/10/77 > DIAGNOSTIC CARTRIDGE. DO NOT ALTER THE > CONTENTS OF THIS TAPE. > (I believe when accessing the built in DCP, it has options to load > and run > additional diagnostics that would be contained on this tape -- I > think > "IMF" stuff, so it would be in native PALM machine code) > > > Anyone interested in a restoration or any contacts to folks who have > worked > on QIC tape before? I have a working IBM 5100 (with working internal > tape > and external 5106), but I absolutely haven't tried to insert or use > these > tapes, and I have 0 experience in trying to extract data from raw > media. > > I don't mind shipping them off to an expert - such as anyone who > maybe can > copy the data content to a new tape? (which I know is probably some > specialized equipment - I probably can't self fund that, but I am > interested to know what the options here might be) > > -Steve / v* --===============8982314907906263829==-- From rescue@hawkmountain.net Mon Mar 27 16:43:35 2023 From: rescue To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] looking for cable for Sun Sbus Expansion Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 12:35:15 -0400 Message-ID: <5462232546fe760158774ed32435f7ef@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5158145494274347342==" --===============5158145494274347342== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have 2 Sbus Expansion chassis, one Sun, and one Integrix (IIRC). I have the expansion chassis and the sbus controllers, but on both cases I do not have the cables. By looking at it, I believe they probably both use the same cable. Anyone out there have one or two cables to spare ? Thanks, -- Curt --===============5158145494274347342==-- From rescue@hawkmountain.net Mon Mar 27 17:38:48 2023 From: rescue To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 13:38:38 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7478326821551201202==" --===============7478326821551201202== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking for MCM68764 and I could probably use some TMS2532 as well. I'm also always on the lookout for blank bipolar proms (chips stargin with 82S, and compatables). Anyone have any of these they don't need. New, used, needing erasing, doesn't matter. If you have any, let me know how many you have (of each if you have both type) and what you are looking to get for them. If you need more standard/bigger EPROMs, I can trade too.... have a number of 2764, 27256, have some 27128 I think too, and maybe some 27512 ? I'd have to go digging. Thanks, -- Curt --===============7478326821551201202==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Mar 27 18:07:52 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 14:07:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6767789120758753234==" --===============6767789120758753234== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 68764s and 2532s are still available if you look hard enough; if you can't find any, with a couple of jumpers the unusual TMS2564 can replace both of them m. On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 1:38 PM rescue via cctalk wrote: > > Looking for MCM68764 and I could probably use some TMS2532 as well. > > I'm also always on the lookout for blank bipolar proms (chips stargin > with 82S, and compatables). > > Anyone have any of these they don't need. New, used, needing erasing, > doesn't matter. > > If you have any, let me know how many you have (of each if you have > both type) and what you are looking to get for them. > > If you need more standard/bigger EPROMs, I can trade too.... have a > number of 2764, 27256, have some 27128 I think too, and maybe some 27512 > ? > I'd have to go digging. > > Thanks, > > -- Curt > > --===============6767789120758753234==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Mar 27 18:45:28 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 13:45:21 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5800403645549901057==" --===============5800403645549901057== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/27/2023 1:07 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > 68764s and 2532s are still available if you look hard enough; if you can't > find any, with a couple of jumpers the unusual TMS2564 can replace both of > them As can a 23XX Adapter (shameless plug, but gerbers are available for anyone to roll their own). Jim --===============5800403645549901057==-- From linimon@portsmon.org Mon Mar 27 21:20:13 2023 From: Mark Linimon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 16:10:25 -0500 Message-ID: <128747970.144236.1679951425626@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4623597515172462935==" --===============4623597515172462935== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 03/27/2023 5:38 PM GMT rescue via cctalk wrote: > have a number of 2764, 27256, have some 27128 I think too Myself as well, probably down to 1702s. Right now with some current money trouble they are looking like assets :-/ mcl --===============4623597515172462935==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Mar 27 22:42:32 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 15:42:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007c01d96072$e68a6cb0$b39f4610$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8264802031008715887==" --===============8264802031008715887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My floptical drive (20MB SCSI) could also handle 1.4M My 2.8M drive (Micro-Solutions "Backpack" parallel port) could also handle 1.4M My LS120 (IDE) could also handle 1.4M My Amlyn drives (disk-changer with 5 disks) was 1.2M per disk. The disks in the changer cartridges were 1.2M, with an extra hole in the jacket for the changer to grab. My Weltec drive (180RPM) did 1.2M in a 5160. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8264802031008715887==-- From jrr@flippers.com Tue Mar 28 00:17:02 2023 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:16:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <128747970.144236.1679951425626@privateemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2972712849420779707==" --===============2972712849420779707== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023/03/27 2:10 p.m., Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: >> On 03/27/2023 5:38 PM GMT rescue via cctalk wrot= e: >> have a number of 2764, 27256, have some 27128 I think too > Myself as well, probably down to 1702s. Right now with some current money > trouble they are looking like assets :-/ > > mcl I'm looking for 100 lot quantities of 2716s...something a bit better=20 than the Chinese remarks (and very thin legs) would be nice! Thanks! John :-#)# --=20 John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============2972712849420779707==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Tue Mar 28 01:24:17 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 18:23:59 -0700 Message-ID: <0B0C79C0-46E0-42E8-B5B0-12CE348F9CC1@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55808F21A8B69D2837B38EE8ED8B9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8452248288764659749==" --===============8452248288764659749== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 27, 2023, at 7:54 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 > LS120's were the most unreliable format I ever used. Disks were frequently >=20 > unreadable mere weeks after making them and the drives were so touchy >=20 > even a slight bump was enough to make them unusable. I still have one >=20 > or two of the drives and a handful of disks around here somewhere but I wou= ld >=20 > never consider trying to use them again. Worse than a Zip disk?!?! Zane --===============8452248288764659749==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Tue Mar 28 02:37:17 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 21:37:01 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0B0C79C0-46E0-42E8-B5B0-12CE348F9CC1@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5205158992344368314==" --===============5205158992344368314== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I never had problems with zip disks myself, but never dove into the floppy things since the price seemed prohibitive. The only problem I experienced with a zip disk was a too many folders deep error but that was from some program or operating system that didn't follow a FAT16 rule or something. What I liked was with a SCSI external I could use it between my PC and Amigas. On Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 8:24 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Mar 27, 2023, at 7:54 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > LS120's were the most unreliable format I ever used. Disks were > frequently > > Worse than a Zip disk?!?! > > Zane > > > --===============5205158992344368314==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Mar 28 04:04:00 2023 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for EPROMs Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 20:53:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3F0E6044-C8AD-4056-9FD6-1E1B7EF5C860@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7037910091515472230==" --===============7037910091515472230== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You might try Utsource. utsource.net Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Mar 27, 2023, at 5:17 PM, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2023/03/27 2:10 p.m., Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 03/27/2023 5:38 PM GMT rescue via cctalk wr= ote: >>> have a number of 2764, 27256, have some 27128 I think too >> Myself as well, probably down to 1702s. Right now with some current money >> trouble they are looking like assets :-/ >>=20 >> mcl >=20 > I'm looking for 100 lot quantities of 2716s...something a bit better than t= he Chinese remarks (and very thin legs) would be nice! >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > John :-#)# >=20 > --=20 > John's Jukes Ltd. > 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 > Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) > flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" >=20 --===============7037910091515472230==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Mar 28 05:34:42 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 22:34:34 -0700 Message-ID: <008e01d96136$fd0fce20$f72f6a60$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6004096266488052386==" --===============6004096266488052386== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I never had problems with zip disks myself, but never dove into the > floppy > things since the price seemed prohibitive. I can't say either technology has been bad to me. I have found IDE and SCSI z= ip drives excellent for exchanging large amount of data between vintage and m= odern system. The LS240 drives are very reliable as well and I have not had a= ny media issues. Plus, like Chuck said, they are so much faster than standard= FDDs for regular floppy disks. -Ali --===============6004096266488052386==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Mar 28 05:34:45 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 22:34:34 -0700 Message-ID: <008f01d96136$fddd0930$f9971b90$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3791477708545188346==" --===============3791477708545188346== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My floptical drive (20MB SCSI) could also handle 1.4M Yes, those could only write 20MB max though. Still pretty cool for the time. > > My 2.8M drive (Micro-Solutions "Backpack" parallel port) could also > handle 1.4M The BackPack drives are nice for quick testing or adding a temporary drive. I have only seen the 2.88MB version once on eBay and it was too rich for my blood. > > My LS120 (IDE) could also handle 1.4M So could the LS240. The LS240 could also write 32MB on a bog standard 1.44MB floppy although with limitations. It was like old school CD-RW. You had to erase the whole disk to make changes... > My Amlyn drives (disk-changer with 5 disks) was 1.2M per disk. The > disks in the changer cartridges were 1.2M, with an extra hole in the > jacket for the changer to grab. I have a similar system for 3.5" disks but for use with the Macintosh: https://www.macintoshrepository.org/26135-jukebox-five https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJsFxLQJaTY The plus side is that it does not need special disks. You can use standard 3.5" floppies. I think the floppy drive did not get its due. I mean for a technology that was so integral to the home computer segment it was very evolutionary and not revolutionary and evolved at a snail's pace. There were obviously some very cool floppy alternatives, which not only improved it but maintained backwards compatibility, but poor market introduction (Sony HiFD), cost (flopticals), or expensive media (ED disks) prevented large scale acceptance. Call me old fashioned but even to this day my new builds (ok my last new build was 10 years ago but still) have a FDD in them. I just feel better knowing I have one in there. --===============3791477708545188346==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Mar 28 07:27:24 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 00:27:19 -0700 Message-ID: <00a501d96146$bb453420$31cf9c60$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4129811772879565632==" --===============4129811772879565632== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Most likely, the 3-mode drive. 8x1024 sectors on each track, giving a > capacity of about 1.23MB. Many PCs of the era could also handle the > drives, which would change spindle speed from 300 to 360 RPM. 3 mode > drives were manufactured right up until the end, but usually were > configured as 2-mode (720/1.44) unless jumpering changes were made to > the drive. Chuck, Yes, R. Stricklin (Bear) verified it as such. So have you ever seen a Tri Density drive? Or was it just a paper announcement that never made it out of the lab? I'd figure if anyone may have seen one it would be you ;) -Ali --===============4129811772879565632==-- From ken.unix.guy@gmail.com Tue Mar 28 13:31:32 2023 From: KenUnix To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Unix System V r1 -> Unix System V r3 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 09:31:12 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7739326816687853265==" --===============7739326816687853265== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Has anyone been successful in communicating using cu or some other method to transfer files between two SIMS running Unix V ? If so I would appreciate some help. Thanks, Ken -- WWL 📚 --===============7739326816687853265==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Mar 28 14:44:29 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 10:44:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0B0C79C0-46E0-42E8-B5B0-12CE348F9CC1@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2795413094120633163==" --===============2795413094120633163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/27/2023 9:23 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > On Mar 27, 2023, at 7:54 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> LS120's were the most unreliable format I ever used.  Disks were >> frequently >> >> unreadable mere weeks after making them and the drives were so touchy >> >> even a slight bump was enough to make them unusable.  I still have one >> >> or two of the drives and a handful of disks around here somewhere but >> I would >> >> never consider trying to use them again. > > Worse than a Zip disk?!?! Can't say.  Never had a Zip Drive. bill --===============2795413094120633163==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Mar 28 15:41:44 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:41:30 -0700 Message-ID: <499b7b7c-f1e0-a7d2-bab6-b26bdcdcd45e@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <00a501d96146$bb453420$31cf9c60$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7570763129564215495==" --===============7570763129564215495== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/28/23 00:27, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Yes, R. Stricklin (Bear) verified it as such. So have you ever seen a Tri > Density drive? Or was it just a paper announcement that never made it out of > the lab? I'd figure if anyone may have seen one it would be you ;) Sure; consider the very common Samsung SFD-321B, particularly page 5: https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/900360/Samsung/SFD-321B/1 Another type of "tri-Density" drive is the fairly common Teac FD-235J, which can do 720K, 1.44M and 2.88M. I've got a couple installed in older systems. They're all configured as media-sense, so the controller doesn't have to do anything special, other than support the 1M transfer rate. One surprise that I had was with a Toshiba Infinia P1 desktop--it came configured to support the 1.23M 360RPM mode in addition to the 720K and 1.44M 300 RPM modes. --Chuck --===============7570763129564215495==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Mar 28 22:31:48 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 15:31:44 -0700 Message-ID: <00f801d961c5$141a9bc0$3c4fd340$@net> In-Reply-To: <499b7b7c-f1e0-a7d2-bab6-b26bdcdcd45e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7481945018319353672==" --===============7481945018319353672== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Sure; consider the very common Samsung SFD-321B, particularly page 5: >=20 .... > Another type of "tri-Density" drive is the fairly common Teac FD-235J, > which can do 720K, 1.44M and 2.88M. I've got a couple installed in > older systems. =20 Chuck, I don't know if we are talking about different things? You are speaking about= a 3 Mode drive that allows 1.2MB on 3.5" drives. I am asking about a Tri Den= sity (as in SD, HD, ED, TD) drive. Supposedly these drives were going to use = longitudinal recording (vs. the perpendicular recording used in ED drives) to= fit 12.5MB on a 3.5" disk. I had linked a press release in the OP:=20 www-computerwoche-de.translate.goog/a/hitachi-maxell-bietet-nec-neue-12-5-mb-= floppy-an,1155888?_x_tr_sl=3Dde&_x_tr_tl=3Den&_x_tr_hl=3Den&_x_tr_pto=3Dwapp I always thought the Mode 3 drives recorder 1.2MB on a standard 1.44MB floppy= (kind of like how QD drives recorded 720KB on a 1.2MB disk). The drives were going to be called: PC FD810.1. Doing a Google search bring u= p some pictures of disks so maybe the drives did make it out in Japan?=20 https://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/dr000/auc0312/us= ers/4f92de2852282d0c4055f15836cd43f760275f36/i-img1200x675-1672137143s8ehmb27= 1085.jpg Or am I missing something? -Ali --===============7481945018319353672==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Mar 28 22:39:24 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 15:39:20 -0700 Message-ID: <00fc01d961c6$2390a080$6ab1e180$@net> In-Reply-To: <00f801d961c5$141a9bc0$3c4fd340$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3410122873866059823==" --===============3410122873866059823== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 > https://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/dr000/auc0 > 312/users/4f92de2852282d0c4055f15836cd43f760275f36/i-img1200x675- > 1672137143s8ehmb271085.jpg >=20 Looking at this picture it indicates the disk is 406TPI which is significantl= y higher than the 96TPI used with 1.2MB HD drives. Also from Wiki: 2TD drive in NEC PC-88 VA3 3 1=E2=81=842-inch TD 1988 ca. 9= .3 MB 12.5 MB[13] (13 MB unformatted) -Ali --===============3410122873866059823==-- From Wayne.Smith@warnerbros.com Tue Mar 28 23:31:11 2023 From: "Smith, Wayne" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sun/Tronic House Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 14:49:37 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001e01d9617f$9860c580$c9225080$@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2072346566373069082==" --===============2072346566373069082== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did some research as to where Dean and Molly (Mary Alice) Hendrickson lived= and the address I come up with is 20 Interlaken Road, Greenwich, CT 06830. = There is no street view on Google but from the satellite photo it looks like = it could be the same house as I seem some of what appear to be similar curved= features on the roof. From: Tarek Hoteit via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, March 24, 2023 10:23 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Tarek Hoteit Subject: [cctalk] Sun/Tronic House Hi. I came across an article about the "Sun/Tronic House" in the July/August 1981 issue of Computers and Programming magazine. The article references the Apple 2 as the computer that controls everything i= n the house that also relies on solar energy. The house, per the article, is (or was) in Greenwich, Connecticut. I also fou= nd a photo of the house at https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.1000bit.it= /storia/apple/suntronic_house.asp__;!!AQdq3sQhfUj4q8uUguY!kmCjCStYOiJwcIejpow= MXz3RahyIlXB9fWARk3IPPyKfq1ZKxiuzHJhM1UVDOzPAQAXzGVkSp6DrTP8UJaMkQYKvhsw$=20 I am curious to know if the house and the Apple IIs are still there. Anyone h= as a clue? (A copy of the magazine is at https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://archive.org/details/sim_computers-and-pro= gramming_july-august-1981_2__;!!AQdq3sQhfUj4q8uUguY!kmCjCStYOiJwcIejpowMXz3Ra= hyIlXB9fWARk3IPPyKfq1ZKxiuzHJhM1UVDOzPAQAXzGVkSp6DrTP8UJaMkCvAPUgI$=20 1_4 page 38). -- Regards, Tarek Hoteit --===============2072346566373069082==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Mar 28 23:38:31 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 16:38:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00f801d961c5$141a9bc0$3c4fd340$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5115384319132949218==" --===============5115384319132949218== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Sure; consider the very common Samsung SFD-321B, particularly page 5: >> . . .=20 >> Another type of "tri-Density" drive is the fairly common Teac FD-235J, >> which can do 720K, 1.44M and 2.88M. I've got a couple installed in >> older systems. On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, Ali via cctalk wrote: > I don't know if we are talking about different things? You are speaking=20 > about a 3 Mode drive that allows 1.2MB on 3.5" drives. I am asking about=20 > a Tri Density (as in SD, HD, ED, TD) drive. Supposedly these drives were=20 > going to use longitudinal recording (vs. the perpendicular recording=20 > used in ED drives) to fit 12.5MB on a 3.5" disk. I had linked a press=20 > release in the OP: > www-computerwoche-de.translate.goog/a/hitachi-maxell-bietet-nec-neue-12-5-m= b-floppy-an,1155888?_x_tr_sl=3Dde&_x_tr_tl=3Den&_x_tr_hl=3Den&_x_tr_pto=3Dwapp > I always thought the Mode 3 drives recorder 1.2MB on a standard 1.44MB=20 > floppy (kind of like how QD drives recorded 720KB on a 1.2MB disk). Not quite the same way as recording 720K on 1.2M drive. Far more than you wanted to go through: 720K on a 1.2M drive is using all 80 tracks, but recording each track at=20 the density used by 360K drives. a 360K drive, in PC format, has 9 512=20 byte sectors, for 4,608 bytes per track, plus sector headers, gaps and=20 other overhead.. About 6.25K unformatted capacity. Other disk formats,=20 with different number of bytes per sector and/or sectors per track can=20 haveup to 5120 bytes of data per track (5 x 1024). It normally does that=20 by using 250,000 bits per second at 300RPM. Some 1.2M drives switch back=20 and forth between 300 RPM and 360RPM. If the drive is at 300 RPM then you=20 need 250,000 bits per second to do 360K, or "720"/"QD". If the drive is=20 at 360RPM, then you need 300,000 bits per second. 360K on a 1.2M drive is double stepping, to get 48tpi, and using=20 250,000bps at 300 RPM, or 300,000bps at 360RPM 1.2M is typically 15 512 byte sectors, with 360 RPM and 500,000 bits=20 per second. 8"DD is the same. What NEC did was to have 8 1024 byte sectors as their format on their 8"DD=20 and 5.25" HD disks, with the usual 360RPM and 500,000 bits per second. 8 x 1024 gives slightly more capacity then 15 x 512. "1.4M" is usually 18 512 byte sectors, with 500,000 bits per second at 300=20 RPM. But, THEN what NEC did differently than everybody else, is that they sped=20 up their 3.5" drives to 360 RPM, so that they had the same format on their=20 3.5" disks as on their 5.25"HD and their 9"DD. A "mode 3" 3.5" drive needs to be able to do both 300 RPM for "1.4M", AND=20 be able to do 360RPM for the NEC format. "SD"/"Single Density" is FM. There is a clock pulse and a data pulse for=20 1, and a clock pulse and gap (no pulse) for a 0. So, there are two pulses=20 (or a pulse and a missing pulse) for each bit. Some engineers call that=20 "half density" "DD"/"Doble Density" is MFM. MFM permits almost twice as much data to be=20 crammed into the same space. It does that by leaving out the clock pulse=20 when it is between two data pulses. Since you, therefore, won't have=20 continuous clock and data pulses, the distance between pulses is almost=20 double, permitting using a higher data transfer rate, for almost twice as=20 much data per track. The marketing people called that "double density",=20 and AFTER they started doing that, they began to refer to FM as "single=20 density". Therefore, the term "double density" first occurs in the=20 literature BEFORE the term "single density" was ever used (much like=20 "World War 2" occured in newspapers of the time, BEFORE anybody ever=20 called the previous one "World War 1") "HD"/"High Density" is MFM. Improvements in hardware and media made it so=20 that you could get away with twice as much data per track. It is ACTUALLY=20 just "double density", with twice the data rate. "ED"/"Extended density" is MFM. Use of barrium ferrite media and=20 perpendicular recording permitted squeezing more. It is 1,000,000 bits=20 per second. 8" is 48tpi, with an unformatted capaciy of 500K SS or 1M DS "360K" 5.25" is 48tpi, with an unformmatted capcity of 500K. "1.2M" is 96tpi, with an unformatted capacity of 1.5?M "720K", "1.4M", and "2.8M" are all 135 tracks per inch "720K" has an unformatted capacity of 1M "1.4M" has an unformatted capacity of 2M "2.8M" has an unformatted capacity of 4M=20 The disk that you linked a picture of says "406TPI"! Therefore, it presumably has about three times as many tracks. (240?),=20 which, if it does a 1,000,000 bits per second, with track density the same=20 as "2.8M", would give it an UNFORMATTED capacity of 12M, and a formatted=20 (data) capacity of about 8.5M. A "TD" drive, if it also handles "720K"/"1.4M" would need both types of=20 heads, and be able to handle both 135tpi and 406TPI. And the FDC would=20 need to do 250,000 bps, 500,000 bps, and 1,000,000 bps. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > The drives were going to be called: PC FD810.1. Doing a Google search bring= up some pictures of disks so maybe the drives did make it out in Japan? > > https://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/dr000/auc0312/= users/4f92de2852282d0c4055f15836cd43f760275f36/i-img1200x675-1672137143s8ehmb= 271085.jpg > > Or am I missing something? > > -Ali --===============5115384319132949218==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 29 00:02:24 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:02:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00f801d961c5$141a9bc0$3c4fd340$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8282099630481385116==" --===============8282099630481385116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/28/23 15:31, Ali via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I don't know if we are talking about different things? You are speaking abo= ut a 3 Mode drive that allows 1.2MB on 3.5" drives. I am asking about a Tri D= ensity (as in SD, HD, ED, TD) drive. Supposedly these drives were going to us= e longitudinal recording (vs. the perpendicular recording used in ED drives) = to fit 12.5MB on a 3.5" disk. I had linked a press release in the OP:=20 >=20 Oh, you mean the Japanese TD disks. As far as I know only one machine was produced that used them, the NEC PC 88-VA3: https://necretro.org/PC-88_VA3 It was an expensive market flop. You might try to hunt down a drive if you're a collector, but as far as I know, the PC88-VA3 systems never made it outside of Japan. Still have my Caleb UHD144 drives, though--144MB on a 3.5" preformatted floppy. Drive also reads and writes 1.44M and 720K floppies. And, then there was the Sony HiFD--another disaster. https://pro.sony/s3/cms-static-content/operation-manual/3864865212.pdf --Chuck --===============8282099630481385116==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Mar 29 00:03:43 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:03:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00fc01d961c6$2390a080$6ab1e180$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0136623671419474022==" --===============0136623671419474022== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> https://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/dr000/auc0 >> 312/users/4f92de2852282d0c4055f15836cd43f760275f36/i-img1200x675- >> 1672137143s8ehmb271085.jpg > > Looking at this picture it indicates the disk is 406TPI which is > significantly higher than the 96TPI used with 1.2MB HD drives. > > Also from Wiki: 2TD drive in NEC PC-88 VA3 3 1⁄2-inch TD 1988 ca. 9.3 > MB 12.5 MB[13] (13 MB unformatted) 3.5" disks for "720K" and "1.4M" are 135TPI. 80 tracks. An exception was the Epson Geneva PX-8, which was 67.5TPI, with 40 tracks. YES, that disk has about three times the track to track density of a "normal" 3.5" disk. With three times as many tracks, using otherwise identical parameters of "2.9M", it would have three times the capaciy. They could also have tracks further in and/or further out, to have slightly more than 24 tracks. Also, of course, beware of how many bytes are in a "megabyte". A "MebiByte" is 1,048,576 bytes. (2^20, or 1024*1024) Non-computer people often call 1,000,000 a "megabyte" (10^6) "1.4M" disks (1,474,560 bytes of data / 1.474 SI Megabytes / 1.40625 Mebibytes) are often called "1.44M", because that number is derived from 1,024,000 bytes per "megabyte" (2^10 * 10^6, 1000 * 1024), giving 1.44. I can find no defensible reason for that corrupted size for a "megabyte". Therefore, I call them "1.4M" (1.40625), NOT "1.44M" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0136623671419474022==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 29 00:34:31 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:34:20 -0700 Message-ID: <472eb0d7-611b-5ee6-4990-ee0fcfb14c88@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8089753912010718108==" --===============8089753912010718108== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/28/23 17:03, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > "1.4M" disks (1,474,560 bytes of data / 1.474 SI Megabytes / 1.40625 > Mebibytes) are often called "1.44M", because that number is derived from > 1,024,000 bytes per "megabyte" (2^10 * 10^6, 1000 * 1024), giving 1.44. > I can find no defensible reason for that corrupted size for a "megabyte". > Therefore, I call them "1.4M" (1.40625), NOT "1.44M" > Unfortunately, we're stuck with the terminology. We probably should call them 2.0 megabyte floppies (at 500Khz, you can fit 12,500 unformatted 8 bit bytes on a track, so 12,500*2*80 = is exactly 2,000,000 bytes. Or, as the young clerk at the Fedex counter asked the other day, "What's a floppy disk?". Yes, Fred, we're THAT old. --Chuck --===============8089753912010718108==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Mar 29 01:06:43 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 18:06:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <472eb0d7-611b-5ee6-4990-ee0fcfb14c88@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2749775030798063991==" --===============2749775030798063991== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> "1.4M" disks (1,474,560 bytes of data / 1.474 SI Megabytes / 1.40625 >> Mebibytes) are often called "1.44M", because that number is derived from >> 1,024,000 bytes per "megabyte" (2^10 * 10^6, 1000 * 1024), giving 1.44. >> I can find no defensible reason for that corrupted size for a "megabyte". >> Therefore, I call them "1.4M" (1.40625), NOT "1.44M" On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Unfortunately, we're stuck with the terminology. We probably should > call them 2.0 megabyte floppies (at 500Khz, you can fit 12,500 > unformatted 8 bit bytes on a track, so 12,500*2*80 = is exactly > 2,000,000 bytes. When the NeXt computer came out, they called its drives "4 Megabyte", even though they had the same drive mechanism, and they worked fine with IBM "2.88M" media :-) I don't have a problem with unformatted capacity, so long as it is consistently applied, and not compared with somebody else's formatted capacity. > Or, as the young clerk at the Fedex counter asked the other day, "What's > a floppy disk?". Yes, Fred, we're THAT old. At Comdex and West Coast Computer Faire, I used an advertising slogan of "save your data from extinction". In the booth, we had some inflatable dinosaurs, including a T. Rex taking a bite out of an 8" Verbatim disk. Some kid came up and told my assistant, "That's not real!" Bob replied, "Well, of course not, they won't let us bring live dinosaurs into the exhibt hall." The kid responded, "not that, stupid. There's no such thing as a disk like that." Bob was unable to get the kid to believe that 8" disks had once existed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2749775030798063991==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 29 01:43:19 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 18:35:49 -0700 Message-ID: <943b7160-9660-e569-1859-903e815fa39b@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0011707430885696816==" --===============0011707430885696816== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/28/23 18:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > At Comdex and West Coast Computer Faire, I used an advertising slogan of > "save your data from extinction".  In the booth, we had some inflatable > dinosaurs, including a T. Rex taking a bite out of an 8" Verbatim disk. > Some kid came up and told my assistant, "That's not real!" > Bob replied, "Well, of course not, they won't let us bring live > dinosaurs into the exhibt hall." The kid responded, "not that, stupid.  > There's no such thing as a disk like that." > Bob was unable to get the kid to believe that 8" disks had once existed. The shipment that was being returned via Fedex, was, in fact 70 8 inch diskettes, ca. 1983--all read just fine. I guess that's a concern for our current removable media, be it Blu-ray DVD, USB pen drive, microSD card, or cloud. I wonder how much of that will still be accessible after 40 years. Or if it will matter... --Chuck --===============0011707430885696816==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Wed Mar 29 02:10:49 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sun/Tronic House Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 19:10:20 -0700 Message-ID: <81C63608-8ACB-4DCA-9D16-EE953B910DD6@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CPH7PR02MB904906B26CF1D75DB0863CCF85889=40PH7PR02MB?= =?utf-8?q?9049=2Enamprd02=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8028310569916523493==" --===============8028310569916523493== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Awesome. Thank you so much.=20 Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 28, 2023, at 4:31 PM, Smith, Wayne via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI did some research as to where Dean and Molly (Mary Alice) Hendri= ckson lived and the address I come up with is 20 Interlaken Road, Greenwich, = CT 06830. There is no street view on Google but from the satellite photo it = looks like it could be the same house as I seem some of what appear to be sim= ilar curved features on the roof. >=20 > From: Tarek Hoteit via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org] > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2023 10:23 PM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Tarek Hoteit > Subject: [cctalk] Sun/Tronic House >=20 > Hi. I came across an article about the "Sun/Tronic House" in the July/August > 1981 issue of Computers and Programming magazine. > The article references the Apple 2 as the computer that controls everything= in the house that also relies on solar energy. > The house, per the article, is (or was) in Greenwich, Connecticut. I also f= ound a photo of the house at https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.1000bit.= it/storia/apple/suntronic_house.asp__;!!AQdq3sQhfUj4q8uUguY!kmCjCStYOiJwcIejp= owMXz3RahyIlXB9fWARk3IPPyKfq1ZKxiuzHJhM1UVDOzPAQAXzGVkSp6DrTP8UJaMkQYKvhsw$=20 > I am curious to know if the house and the Apple IIs are still there. Anyone= has a clue? >=20 > (A copy of the magazine is at > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://archive.org/details/sim_computers-and-p= rogramming_july-august-1981_2__;!!AQdq3sQhfUj4q8uUguY!kmCjCStYOiJwcIejpowMXz3= RahyIlXB9fWARk3IPPyKfq1ZKxiuzHJhM1UVDOzPAQAXzGVkSp6DrTP8UJaMkCvAPUgI$=20 > 1_4 page 38). > -- > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit >=20 >=20 --===============8028310569916523493==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Mar 29 02:13:07 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 19:13:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <943b7160-9660-e569-1859-903e815fa39b@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4399056277504808096==" --===============4399056277504808096== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The shipment that was being returned via Fedex, was, in fact 70 8 inch > diskettes, ca. 1983--all read just fine. > I guess that's a concern for our current removable media, be it Blu-ray > DVD, USB pen drive, microSD card, or cloud. I wonder how much of that > will still be accessible after 40 years. Or if it will matter... Technologically, it seems possible to make media that will last a while. Verbatim claims 100 years for their MDISC BluRry. But, obviously, that is an extrapolation, and never tested with real world experience. But, will it be possible to convince managers to spend $20 per disc, when discs are available for a dollar or two, with an expected life of 1 to 5 years? When I was at NASA half a century ago, some of us brought up the possibility of inconveniences that would eventually result from using two decimal digits for the year in everything. We were told that nothing that we did would matter in 30 years. But, I heard that they eventually were looking for people to patch GLSP (Generalized Least Squares Program (FORTRAN)) In 40 years, the disks will be in the hands of antiquarians, who collect, but would never uncork, valuables. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4399056277504808096==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Mar 29 09:19:02 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:18:57 -0700 Message-ID: <0ae801d9621f$7e599a90$7b0ccfb0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4637392131806053023==" --===============4637392131806053023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck, > Oh, you mean the Japanese TD disks. As far as I know only one machine > was produced that used them, the NEC PC 88-VA3: >=20 > https://necretro.org/PC-88_VA3 Yep, that the one. >=20 > It was an expensive market flop. You might try to hunt down a drive if > you're a collector, but as far as I know, the PC88-VA3 systems never > made it outside of Japan. No interest in collecting. I am just surprised it didn't catch on assuming co= st of drive and media wasn't atrocious. In 1989 I was still using a 5160 w/ a= 10MB HDD (in fact I ran Win 3 on that machine with a NEC CPU upgrade). Havin= g an almost formatted capacity of 10MB, on even a $10 floppy disk, would have= been phenomenal. That=E2=80=99s why I am surprised these floppy alternatives= did not catch on especially when the ZIP drive took over the market like wil= d fire without even offering backward compatibility.... >=20 > Still have my Caleb UHD144 drives, though--144MB on a 3.5" preformatted > floppy. Drive also reads and writes 1.44M and 720K floppies. From what I understand the Caleb was too little too late. Zip had already est= ablished dominance and LS120 was on the market.=20 >=20 > And, then there was the Sony HiFD--another disaster. Well when the first generation becomes known for mangling your data.... I bla= me Sony and poor execution for that one. If they had done it right a 200MB 3.= 5" disk drive in the late 90s would have still been awesome especially since = it had backwards compatibility. I think the same can be said of the LS240 dri= ves half a decade sooner in introduction and they would have taken over every= thing. -Ali --===============4637392131806053023==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Mar 29 09:19:09 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:18:57 -0700 Message-ID: <0ae901d9621f$7ed5f680$7c81e380$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7623657593031363976==" --===============7623657593031363976== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Far more than you wanted to go through: > Fred, Not at all. As always lots of wisdom condensed into a short post. This one is going into my "Posts to Save" folder! > "2.8M" has an unformatted capacity of 4M > The disk that you linked a picture of says "406TPI"! > Therefore, it presumably has about three times as many tracks. (240?), > which, if it does a 1,000,000 bits per second, with track density the > same > as "2.8M", would give it an UNFORMATTED capacity of 12M, and a > formatted > (data) capacity of about 8.5M. > Perfectly predicted and exactly as the PR announcement and info I have found says it should be! From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floppy_disk_formats#Physical_compositi on Density Tracks tpi bpi Coercivity Unformatted capacity per side Triple[14] 240 406.5 36,700 6,500 KB -Ali --===============7623657593031363976==-- From maxwell@buffalo.edu Wed Mar 29 11:31:53 2023 From: John Maxwell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 21:12:52 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <391917ba-9589-cf6c-55df-d7d046b78859@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6120683490483340276==" --===============6120683490483340276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris, I had a bunch of 1.2Mb 5-1/4" drives that, unfortunately, may have been di= scarded over the past year. I mainly hung on to all of the 360K FDDs that I c= ame across, which are more difficult to find. I know that I still have some N= OS 1.2Mb units (never been powered up, but also not taken out of their origin= al plastic bags either.) I bought these new from a local computer store (stil= l in business, but now doing mostly consulting work, unfortunately) many year= s ago (early 2000's) to support some clients that used them. I have (or had) = used, tested 1.2Mb drives also.=20 Alas, I am near Buffalo, NY and not too close to MD, but am willing to pac= k and ship. I see from the replies that I have read that nobody has offered d= rives. If you are still interested, I can look up the models of the units tha= t I still have and from which I can part. Best, -John -----Original Message----- From: Chris Zach via cctalk =20 Sent: Sunday, 26 February, 2023 19:42 To: CCTalk mailing list Cc: Chris Zach Subject: [cctalk] Need a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy Oi. So after finally getting things going I started copying the Pro/380 OS files = to a bunch of 1.2mb floppies. Great. However after a bit I started getting er= rors, and found that the disks were getting gouges in the tracks. Sure enough= disassembly of my 1.2mb Teac showed that debris had become embedded in the d= isk head and cleaning is not possible. Terrific. Tossing the drive, this is not the first time I have had this probl= em with these disks so I am dumpstering all of the old floppies and just boug= ht 40 new ones in sealed boxes. However I'm now in need of a 1.2mb floppy drive. Anyone have a good working s= pare that I can beg/borrow/buy in the MD area? Thanks! CZ (I really should have pitched these disks; they came from a basement with an = oil heater for 20 years and are quite honestly garbage. Only thing worse were= disks from Solarex which literally had silicon dust on them that chewed any = drive. Oh well, live and learn) --===============6120683490483340276==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Mar 29 11:47:36 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 07:47:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR15MB4828BE7A2714F1CDB786C900B3889=40CO1PR15MB?= =?utf-8?q?4828=2Enamprd15=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1171816045003606729==" --===============1171816045003606729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We have a case or two of 1.2m diskette, we sell by the box or individually at Kennett Classic (kennettclassic.com) not sure how far you are from the MD/PA/DE border Bill On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 7:32 AM John Maxwell via cctalk wrote: > Hi Chris, > I had a bunch of 1.2Mb 5-1/4" drives that, unfortunately, may have been > discarded over the past year. I mainly hung on to all of the 360K FDDs that > I came across, which are more difficult to find. I know that I still have > some NOS 1.2Mb units (never been powered up, but also not taken out of > their original plastic bags either.) I bought these new from a local > computer store (still in business, but now doing mostly consulting work, > unfortunately) many years ago (early 2000's) to support some clients that > used them. I have (or had) used, tested 1.2Mb drives also. > > Alas, I am near Buffalo, NY and not too close to MD, but am willing to > pack and ship. I see from the replies that I have read that nobody has > offered drives. If you are still interested, I can look up the models of > the units that I still have and from which I can part. > > Best, > -John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Zach via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, 26 February, 2023 19:42 > To: CCTalk mailing list > Cc: Chris Zach > Subject: [cctalk] Need a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy > > Oi. > > So after finally getting things going I started copying the Pro/380 OS > files to a bunch of 1.2mb floppies. Great. However after a bit I started > getting errors, and found that the disks were getting gouges in the tracks. > Sure enough disassembly of my 1.2mb Teac showed that debris had become > embedded in the disk head and cleaning is not possible. > > Terrific. Tossing the drive, this is not the first time I have had this > problem with these disks so I am dumpstering all of the old floppies and > just bought 40 new ones in sealed boxes. > > However I'm now in need of a 1.2mb floppy drive. Anyone have a good > working spare that I can beg/borrow/buy in the MD area? > > Thanks! > CZ > > (I really should have pitched these disks; they came from a basement with > an oil heater for 20 years and are quite honestly garbage. Only thing worse > were disks from Solarex which literally had silicon dust on them that > chewed any drive. Oh well, live and learn) > --===============1171816045003606729==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Mar 29 13:46:58 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:44:45 -0400 Message-ID: <451e6a1b-14be-6900-1ad6-86e12eaba2cb@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR15MB4828BE7A2714F1CDB786C900B3889=40CO1PR15MB?= =?utf-8?q?4828=2Enamprd15=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0927519699816247087==" --===============0927519699816247087== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John! Thanks for the reply. I've been a bit busy but yes I would love to=20 replace this drive and be able to read these 400k RX50 floppies. If you have a pair of the Teac type drives that will work in a PC-AT=20 type system I'd be happy to pay for shipping and whatnot via Paypal.=20 Given the number of Pro/350 install floppies I'd like to image I might=20 want to have a spare. Just drop me an amount off-list, and thank you for the help! Chris On 3/28/2023 5:12 PM, John Maxwell via cctalk wrote: > Hi Chris, > I had a bunch of 1.2Mb 5-1/4" drives that, unfortunately, may have been= discarded over the past year. I mainly hung on to all of the 360K FDDs that = I came across, which are more difficult to find. I know that I still have som= e NOS 1.2Mb units (never been powered up, but also not taken out of their ori= ginal plastic bags either.) I bought these new from a local computer store (s= till in business, but now doing mostly consulting work, unfortunately) many y= ears ago (early 2000's) to support some clients that used them. I have (or ha= d) used, tested 1.2Mb drives also. >=20 > Alas, I am near Buffalo, NY and not too close to MD, but am willing to = pack and ship. I see from the replies that I have read that nobody has offere= d drives. If you are still interested, I can look up the models of the units = that I still have and from which I can part. >=20 > Best, > -John >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Zach via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, 26 February, 2023 19:42 > To: CCTalk mailing list > Cc: Chris Zach > Subject: [cctalk] Need a 1.2mb 5.25 floppy >=20 > Oi. >=20 > So after finally getting things going I started copying the Pro/380 OS file= s to a bunch of 1.2mb floppies. Great. However after a bit I started getting = errors, and found that the disks were getting gouges in the tracks. Sure enou= gh disassembly of my 1.2mb Teac showed that debris had become embedded in the= disk head and cleaning is not possible. >=20 > Terrific. Tossing the drive, this is not the first time I have had this pro= blem with these disks so I am dumpstering all of the old floppies and just bo= ught 40 new ones in sealed boxes. >=20 > However I'm now in need of a 1.2mb floppy drive. Anyone have a good working= spare that I can beg/borrow/buy in the MD area? >=20 > Thanks! > CZ >=20 > (I really should have pitched these disks; they came from a basement with a= n oil heater for 20 years and are quite honestly garbage. Only thing worse we= re disks from Solarex which literally had silicon dust on them that chewed an= y drive. Oh well, live and learn) --===============0927519699816247087==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 29 15:36:27 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 08:36:18 -0700 Message-ID: <063da9cb-790a-b491-080a-e558b9e9d0bd@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <0ae801d9621f$7e599a90$7b0ccfb0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1726013107484525025==" --===============1726013107484525025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/29/23 02:18, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> Still have my Caleb UHD144 drives, though--144MB on a 3.5" preformatted >> floppy. Drive also reads and writes 1.44M and 720K floppies. >=20 >>From what I understand the Caleb was too little too late. Zip had already e= stablished dominance and LS120 was on the market.=20 I think that Zip drives benefitted largely from the support of Apple. Some Performa models had a Zip drive as standard equipment and there was the USB Imation Superdrive targeted toward Mac users. FWIW, I buy Superdrives even if the drive inside isn't known to work. The enclosure is very nice for standard 3.5" drives. Very often, the things come up for auction without the USB dongle and wall wart PSU--and a floppy stuck inside. I have the dongle and PSU, so it's mostly a matter of plugging the thing into a PC and issuing an "eject" command. The plastic ejection button on the things often deforms so that the ejection switch can't be activated manually. It's a minor fix to reform the button. --Chuck --===============1726013107484525025==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Mar 29 16:40:39 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:40:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0ae901d9621f$7ed5f680$7c81e380$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3509190324006349125==" --===============3509190324006349125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> "2.8M" has an unformatted capacity of 4M >> The disk that you linked a picture of says "406TPI"! >> Therefore, it presumably has about three times as many tracks. (240?), >> which, if it does a 1,000,000 bits per second, with track density the >> same as "2.8M", That should read "density within each track", as "track density" could mean how close the tracks are to each other, and this is one third the track to track distance. >> would give it an UNFORMATTED capacity of 12M, and a formatted >> (data) capacity of about 8.5M. > Density Tracks tpi bpi Coercivity Unformatted capacity per side > Triple[14] 240 406.5 36,700 6,500 KB --===============3509190324006349125==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Mar 29 16:57:09 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:56:58 -0700 Message-ID: <33edd971-9757-3d3d-df65-20241de35adb@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <063da9cb-790a-b491-080a-e558b9e9d0bd@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5962707901993065604==" --===============5962707901993065604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/29/23 08:36, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/29/23 02:18, Ali via cctalk wrote: >=20 >>> Still have my Caleb UHD144 drives, though--144MB on a 3.5" preformatted >>> floppy. Drive also reads and writes 1.44M and 720K floppies. >> >> >From what I understand the Caleb was too little too late. Zip had already= established dominance and LS120 was on the market.=20 >=20 Forgot to mention: The attraction for the Caleb drive was price. The disks retailed for $5 the each. One problem that I've noticed is that the drive doesn't play well on a PATA bus.Regardless of setting for master or slave, very often if there's another device on the bus, the Caleb will either disappear itself or the bus will hang. When the drive works, it works well. Eject is mechanical, so no issues with a powered eject. All in all, I think the reason the Caleb failed with market penetration is that it was woefully underfunded. --Chuck --===============5962707901993065604==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Wed Mar 29 21:09:13 2023 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for IBM 2723 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 17:08:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5959212599502057446==" --===============5959212599502057446== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey all, So, being the new owner of a AS/400 9401-150, I am looking for a 2723-9406 LAN card for it. Does anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with by chance? -Peter --===============5959212599502057446==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Thu Mar 30 05:03:51 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ATA-3 50-pin IDE Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 01:03:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3300189146830083857==" --===============3300189146830083857== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How about this? http://www.cablesonline.com/slnocd50pinj.html m On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 4:33=E2=80=AFPM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Picture is on the VCF discussion here: > > 50-pin ATA to 44-pin ATA conversion options | Vintage Computer Federation > Forums (vcfed.org) > < > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/50-pin-ata-to-44-pin-ata-conversi= on-options.1242427/#post-1307018 > > > > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/50-pin-ata-to-44-pin-ata-conversi= on-options.1242427/#post-1307018 > > > I could be wrong, maybe it is a SCSI interface. > > > > On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 3:22=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: > > > Can you post a picture somewhere? > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Mar 26, 2023, at 13:20, Paul Berger via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFI have seen lots of laptop drives that would fit a 50 pin conn= ector > > that is about 2mm pitch Looking at the back of the drive from the left > > there are 44 pins in a group then 2 pins missing and the remaining 4 are > > for selecting master and slave. > > > > > > Paul. > > > > > >> On 2023-03-26 4:33 p.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > >> Is anyone familiar with the 50-pin IDE interface, which I think is > > called > > >> ATA-3? It is from around 1997-2002. Normally IDE is 40-pin, or in > > >> laptops might be a 44-pin. > > >> > > >> But in a COMPAQ Presario 1220, I've come across its hard drive that is > > >> using this 50-pin interface (two rows of 25-pin that are quite > > >> small/tightly spaced - moreso than even PCMCIA). > > >> > > >> I believe it is different (electrically) than the 1.8" 50-pin > > interface. I > > >> ordered a CF-to-50-pin adapter that is intended for those 1.8" drives, > > and > > >> it won't work on this ATA-2 port (system won't boot with it inserted). > > >> However, all my CF cards are larger than 2GB - so I'm not sure if that > > was > > >> the issue (don't think so, I think even with 8GB or larger it would > > still > > >> at least try to boot). > > >> > > >> > > >> The 2GB drive in this Presario (with the "weird' 50-pin IDE) contains > > >> Windows ME and Office 2000. That's cute, but I'm not so interested in > > that > > >> - I was hoping to image that drive for archive, then install something > > else > > >> (OS2). But I can't find any "ATA-3 to normal 40-pin IDE" adapter. > > >> > > >> I think the "6 extra pins" on this 50-pin (relative to normal 44-pin > > laptop > > >> drives of those days) -- 2 of those pins (5-6) aren't used (maybe a > > kind of > > >> key) and the 4 others (1-4) are vendor specific. So I may just be out > > of > > >> luck here in upgrading or replacing this drive with a more modern > > >> solution. But wanted to run it by the crew here before giving up. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> > > >> -Steve / v* > > > --===============3300189146830083857==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Thu Mar 30 13:22:03 2023 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 3.5' 1.44 & 720K compatible Read/Write FDDs Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 02:26:11 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6891988959742061664==" --===============6891988959742061664== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a list of floppy disk drives which could read and write both 3.5" 1.44mb and 720k diskettes? A product line of musical instruments (General Music/Ahlborn-Galanti) I service use 3.5" 720K DD floppy disk drives. I've never had any problems formatting or backing up data files prior on other instruments. Tuesday, I attempted to format a floppy disk using the instrument's internal FDD prior to backing up the data files. After the format an error appears "corrupted data". Which could mean so several different things from a bad floppy drive, etc. I currently have one box of Sony MFD-2DD 3.5" 720K Double Density Floppy diskettes which were bought new a few years ago, kept in their box, and stored in a dust free place. I've used them prior for the same purpose with no problems. I'd like to be able to verify at home that the diskettes haven't all suddenly gone bad. Thanks Don Resor --===============6891988959742061664==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Thu Mar 30 15:54:10 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] MIT Lisp Machine and ucode recovered Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 10:53:53 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5843108421654262680==" --===============5843108421654262680== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Originating in 1960, Lisp is second only to Fortran as the oldest programming language still in use today. Historically used for research, artificial intelligence, and mathematics, Lisp remains relevant in these fields, as well as in quantum computing research and other cutting-edge applications. In the mid-1970s, researchers sought high-performance, single-user, interactive machines due to the constraints of running their code on large multi-user mainframes. Such machines would allow for more efficient and flexible research and development. Richard Greenblatt at the MIT AI Lab spearheaded the development of the first dedicated Lisp machines, including the successful CONS machine and later CADR machines. MACSYMA, a symbolic mathematics program written in Lisp which consumed significant resources on the PDP-10 running ITS, was a key motivator for the Lisp Machine's creation. LispM hackers in residence, including Daniel Weinreb (DLW), David Moon (MOON), Richard Stallman (RMS), John L. Kulp (JLK), Mike McMahon (MMcM), and others, were responsible for the overall system development. Kulp designed the legendary Space Cadet keyboard, known for its unique key arrangements and symbols, and Moon and Weinreb wrote the first and second Lisp Machine editors (EINE, ZWEI) respectively. Brad Parker developed the first working CADR simulator (usim), which emulates the MIT CADR, and with the Lisp Machine microcode running on top, allows users to explore the historic system and its unique features. Until recently, only up until system 78 of the LISP operating system and microcode from MIT could be emulated. Alfred M. Szmidt (AMS) received copies of backup tapes containing systems 98 and 99, dating from 1983 and 1984, respectively, and was able to get them running after a decade of effort. The bootstrap process was an impressive hack, due to the Lisp Machine's use of network booting and a mixture of compiled and uncompiled code. Szmidt has now iterated the distribution to system 100 with all of his fixes included. This marks the first time in 35 years that anyone can use this environment, designed to support AI and computational research at the cutting edge. The windowing and graphical feel of the environment stand out, and the Lisp machine and CADR processor allow users to dive deep into the operating system's inner workings. The line between compiled and source code is thin, and users can open and read almost everything. The CADR machine served as the foundation for commercial products sold by LISP Machines, Inc., founded by Richard Greenblatt, and Symbolics, founded by MIT AI Lab ex-administrator Russell Noftsker. The emulator provides a glimpse into the height of 80s MIT hacker culture by booting to MIT System 100. Find more information and try the system out yourself via AMS's announcement post: https://tumbleweed.nu/r/bug-lispm/forumpost/7475d8a3db Or visit https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 -Eric --===============5843108421654262680==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Thu Mar 30 15:59:32 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Call for Speakers - VCF Southwest (VCFSW) coming to Dallas in June! Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 10:59:14 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3264950734787282046==" --===============3264950734787282046== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Vintage Computer Enthusiasts! VCF SouthWest (VCFSW) is returning to Dallas after a long hiatus! We will be gathering June 23rd to 25th, details at https://www.vcfsw.org/ We are seeking speakers, exhibitors, vendors, sponsors, and volunteers! We already have some great speakers and panels lined up, and are looking for people with stories to tell about computing in Texas especially. Details and a sign up form are on the website for signing up as an exhibitor or vendor, and speakers can contact the organizers at vcfsouthwest(a)gmail.com Vendor and exhibitor tables are $50 each, and we have a limited number of tables available inside. After the inside tables are sold, we will consider selling outdoor vendor spaces if there is demand. Sponsor packages are available, starting at $250. This includes prime vendor space if desired, and placement of the sponsors logo and promotional materials proportionate to the amount of the sponsorship. Please contact us with any questions, ideas, or concerns. Thank you for being awesome and supporting the vintage computer community! --===============3264950734787282046==-- From ethan@757.org Thu Mar 30 16:24:30 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3.5' 1.44 & 720K compatible Read/Write FDDs Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 12:24:25 -0400 Message-ID: <8b2be6a5-904f-f53c-dfce-799de99f956d@757.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAJeY9Hoa11JKjwHiCj/qBjUBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6745948679833623084==" --===============6745948679833623084== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is there a list of floppy disk drives which could read and write both 3.5" > 1.44mb and 720k diskettes? Replace any SMD electrolytic caps on the drive pcb if there are any. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============6745948679833623084==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Mar 30 17:24:58 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3.5' 1.44 & 720K compatible Read/Write FDDs Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 10:24:35 -0700 Message-ID: <4b238e4e-f27b-0d4b-45a8-5178c70303d5@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <8b2be6a5-904f-f53c-dfce-799de99f956d@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7391558282576722715==" --===============7391558282576722715== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/30/23 09:24, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> Is there a list of floppy disk drives which could read and write both >> 3.5" >> 1.44mb and 720k diskettes? Absent any alignment issues, or dirty heads, just about any HD drive (e.g. Teac FD235HF) is equally facile in both DD and HD media. Quite often, a DD-only (e.g. Teac FD235F) drive will have performance inferior to that of the HD-DD drives. Other issues that might crop up in reqplacement, such as READY on pin 34 versus DISK CHANGED, does have to be taken into account. --Chuck --===============7391558282576722715==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Thu Mar 30 17:27:23 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MIT Lisp Machine and ucode recovered Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 12:27:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5802718535333120962==" --===============5802718535333120962== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is great to see.  One note, you'll need to install libx11-dev (on Ubuntu 22 anyway) then build it.  Now to figure out how to play with it. thanks Jim On 3/30/23 10:53, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > Originating in 1960, Lisp is second only to Fortran as the oldest > programming language still in use today. Historically used for research, > artificial intelligence, and mathematics, Lisp remains relevant in these > fields, as well as in quantum computing research and other cutting-edge > applications. > > In the mid-1970s, researchers sought high-performance, single-user, > interactive machines due to the constraints of running their code on large > multi-user mainframes. Such machines would allow for more efficient and > flexible research and development. Richard Greenblatt at the MIT AI Lab > spearheaded the development of the first dedicated Lisp machines, including > the successful CONS machine and later CADR machines. > > MACSYMA, a symbolic mathematics program written in Lisp which consumed > significant resources on the PDP-10 running ITS, was a key motivator for > the Lisp Machine's creation. > > LispM hackers in residence, including Daniel Weinreb (DLW), David Moon > (MOON), Richard Stallman (RMS), John L. Kulp (JLK), Mike McMahon (MMcM), > and others, were responsible for the overall system development. Kulp > designed the legendary Space Cadet keyboard, known for its unique key > arrangements and symbols, and Moon and Weinreb wrote the first and second > Lisp Machine editors (EINE, ZWEI) respectively. > > Brad Parker developed the first working CADR simulator (usim), which > emulates the MIT CADR, and with the Lisp Machine microcode running on top, > allows users to explore the historic system and its unique features. > > Until recently, only up until system 78 of the LISP operating system and > microcode from MIT could be emulated. Alfred M. Szmidt (AMS) received > copies of backup tapes containing systems 98 and 99, dating from 1983 and > 1984, respectively, and was able to get them running after a decade of > effort. The bootstrap process was an impressive hack, due to the Lisp > Machine's use of network booting and a mixture of compiled and uncompiled > code. Szmidt has now iterated the distribution to system 100 with all of > his fixes included. > > > This marks the first time in 35 years that anyone can use this environment, > designed to support AI and computational research at the cutting edge. The > windowing and graphical feel of the environment stand out, and the Lisp > machine and CADR processor allow users to dive deep into the operating > system's inner workings. The line between compiled and source code is thin, > and users can open and read almost everything. > > The CADR machine served as the foundation for commercial products sold by > LISP Machines, Inc., founded by Richard Greenblatt, and Symbolics, founded > by MIT AI Lab ex-administrator Russell Noftsker. The emulator provides a > glimpse into the height of 80s MIT hacker culture by booting to MIT System > 100. > > Find more information and try the system out yourself via AMS's > announcement post: > https://tumbleweed.nu/r/bug-lispm/forumpost/7475d8a3db > > Or visit https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 > > -Eric --===============5802718535333120962==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Thu Mar 30 17:34:49 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MIT Lisp Machine and ucode recovered Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 12:34:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3606269913976734055==" --===============3606269913976734055== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is a hello world: (format t "Hello, World!") It kinda works, need to throw maybe a \n on it, no idea what options format takes. It kicks you to the debugger pretty quick, where you get to find out you need to go read the usim documentation on key mappings, unless you have a knight or space cadet keyboard laying around and properly mapped, lol. Good times, it is definitely very different and weird. -Eric On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 12:27 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > This is great to see. One note, you'll need to install libx11-dev (on > Ubuntu 22 anyway) > then build it. Now to figure out how to play with it. > > thanks > Jim > > On 3/30/23 10:53, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > > Originating in 1960, Lisp is second only to Fortran as the oldest > > programming language still in use today. Historically used for research, > > artificial intelligence, and mathematics, Lisp remains relevant in these > > fields, as well as in quantum computing research and other cutting-edge > > applications. > > > > In the mid-1970s, researchers sought high-performance, single-user, > > interactive machines due to the constraints of running their code on > large > > multi-user mainframes. Such machines would allow for more efficient and > > flexible research and development. Richard Greenblatt at the MIT AI Lab > > spearheaded the development of the first dedicated Lisp machines, > including > > the successful CONS machine and later CADR machines. > > > > MACSYMA, a symbolic mathematics program written in Lisp which consumed > > significant resources on the PDP-10 running ITS, was a key motivator for > > the Lisp Machine's creation. > > > > LispM hackers in residence, including Daniel Weinreb (DLW), David Moon > > (MOON), Richard Stallman (RMS), John L. Kulp (JLK), Mike McMahon (MMcM), > > and others, were responsible for the overall system development. Kulp > > designed the legendary Space Cadet keyboard, known for its unique key > > arrangements and symbols, and Moon and Weinreb wrote the first and second > > Lisp Machine editors (EINE, ZWEI) respectively. > > > > Brad Parker developed the first working CADR simulator (usim), which > > emulates the MIT CADR, and with the Lisp Machine microcode running on > top, > > allows users to explore the historic system and its unique features. > > > > Until recently, only up until system 78 of the LISP operating system and > > microcode from MIT could be emulated. Alfred M. Szmidt (AMS) received > > copies of backup tapes containing systems 98 and 99, dating from 1983 and > > 1984, respectively, and was able to get them running after a decade of > > effort. The bootstrap process was an impressive hack, due to the Lisp > > Machine's use of network booting and a mixture of compiled and uncompiled > > code. Szmidt has now iterated the distribution to system 100 with all of > > his fixes included. > > > > > > This marks the first time in 35 years that anyone can use this > environment, > > designed to support AI and computational research at the cutting edge. > The > > windowing and graphical feel of the environment stand out, and the Lisp > > machine and CADR processor allow users to dive deep into the operating > > system's inner workings. The line between compiled and source code is > thin, > > and users can open and read almost everything. > > > > The CADR machine served as the foundation for commercial products sold by > > LISP Machines, Inc., founded by Richard Greenblatt, and Symbolics, > founded > > by MIT AI Lab ex-administrator Russell Noftsker. The emulator provides a > > glimpse into the height of 80s MIT hacker culture by booting to MIT > System > > 100. > > > > Find more information and try the system out yourself via AMS's > > announcement post: > > https://tumbleweed.nu/r/bug-lispm/forumpost/7475d8a3db > > > > Or visit https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 > > > > -Eric > > --===============3606269913976734055==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Mar 30 17:48:25 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3.5' 1.44 & 720K compatible Read/Write FDDs Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 10:48:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4b238e4e-f27b-0d4b-45a8-5178c70303d5@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0994730902850448596==" --===============0994730902850448596== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 30 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Absent any alignment issues, or dirty heads, just about any HD drive > (e.g. Teac FD235HF) is equally facile in both DD and HD media. Quite > often, a DD-only (e.g. Teac FD235F) drive will have performance inferior > to that of the HD-DD drives. > Other issues that might crop up in reqplacement, such as READY on pin 34 > versus DISK CHANGED, does have to be taken into account. some of the exceptions: The drives in many IBM PS/2 machines don't seem to have a media sensor, so they can't tell the difference between "720K" and "1.4M" disks. "720K" is about 600 Oersted, and "1.4M" is about 750 Oersted, so they are close enough that sometimes one can get away with using the wrong one. There once existed single sided drives. Such as the original Shugart SA300 They were used in early Gavilans, but were replaceable with double sided, especially the SA350, which could use the Gavilan's custom SA300 bezel, Epson Geneva PX8 was 40 cylinders, intead of 80, with 67.5tpi, instead of the usual 135tpi. "2.8M" will also work, it has a media sensor for te ED disks. The original Sony FULL height drives were at 600RPM, and had a different interface. The Tandy Portable Disk Drive, for the model 100, was weird and a half. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0994730902850448596==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Thu Mar 30 19:27:21 2023 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MIT Lisp Machine and ucode recovered Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 14:27:15 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1863958873216460038==" --===============1863958873216460038== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/30/23 12:34, Eric Moore wrote: > Here is a hello world: > > (format t "Hello, World!") > > It kinda works, need to throw maybe a \n on it, no idea what options=20 > format takes. > > It kicks you to the debugger pretty quick, where you get to find out=20 > you need to go read the usim documentation on key mappings, unless you=20 > have a knight or space cadet keyboard laying around and properly=20 > mapped, lol. > > Good times, it is definitely very different and weird. > > -Eric > > > > On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 12:27=E2=80=AFPM jim stephens via cctalk=20 > wrote: > > This is great to see.=C2=A0 One note, you'll need to install libx11-dev > (on > Ubuntu 22 anyway) > then build it.=C2=A0 Now to figure out how to play with it. > > thanks > Jim > I've found a few things, will post my rough notes below.=C2=A0 I noted some=20 things that get other than the debug prompt from the system. The keyboard mapping in the usim document I found doesn't match what=20 this usim is doing, so finding an accurate usim would be nice. Also having no experience here, a document on how to bring this up from=20 the keyboard to something more useful would be great, besides a usim=20 manual.=C2=A0 I've got hints of that in the documentation on bitsavers, but=20 no document approaching it from the direction of how to use it. I thought maybe Genera would be useful as a guide but not looking like=20 that now.=C2=A0 That's why I put in a link anyway. thanks Jim **************** *documents* Genera guide, might be slightly useful to try things outl http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/symbolics/software/genera_8/Genera_Use= r_s_Guide.pdf Bitsavers CADR documentation http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/cadr/ Lisp machine manual 1981 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/cadr/chinual_4thEd_Jul81.pdf broken up manual http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/cadr/chinual_6thEd_Jan84/ Window system guide http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/cadr/Weinreb_Moon-Lisp_Machine_Manual_Jan_19= 79.pdf top level of source site https://tumbleweed.nu/ *Examples* (format t "Hello, World!") (room) (time) (working-storage-area) fails spectacularly, gets lots of interesting=20 crap.=C2=A0 probably restart machine till real info is found.=C2=A0 Somewhere someone suggested finding=20 usim docs.=C2=A0 not found at this point in the notes. (print-disk-label) puts out a lot of stuff. (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time)) https://tumbleweed.nu/r/usim/doc/trunk/README.md from this page: https://tumbleweed.nu/r/lm-3/uv/operat.html f1 is the button on the keyboard. I Inspector menu shows up hitting the buttons across the top two boxes crashed usim, or at least=20 it exits. bottom box has what usually shows up when you bomb out with a bad function Keys from the README.md file are inaccurate, but here they are.=C2=A0 F1=20 works as for me. F2 propmts network.=C2=A0 Not sure where they are defined. Telnet doesn't work at least on my box.=C2=A0 I did manage to try to connect = to a host, and usim loops. |[kbd] F1 =3D escape F2 =3D system F3 =3D network F4 =3D abort F5 =3D help F6= =3D=20 clear F7 =3D call F11 =3D end F12 =3D break | --30-- --===============1863958873216460038==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 31 01:24:46 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3.5' 1.44 & 720K compatible Read/Write FDDs Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:24:35 -0700 Message-ID: <2c801483-acd4-c3be-de44-c01740cc52e0@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6188544454353060943==" --===============6188544454353060943== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/30/23 10:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > The drives in many IBM PS/2 machines don't seem to have a media sensor, > so they can't tell the difference between "720K" and "1.4M" disks. > "720K" is about 600 Oersted, and "1.4M" is about 750 Oersted, so they > are close enough that sometimes one can get away with using the wrong one. Those PS/2 drives often have peculiar IBM-specific interfaces. For example, some are 40 pin instead of 34. Or power is shared on the same cable as signals, etc. You're not likely to consider them. > There once existed single sided drives. Such as the original Shugart > SA300 They were used in early Gavilans, but were replaceable with double > sided, especially the SA350, which could use the Gavilan's custom SA300 > bezel, > > Epson Geneva PX8 was 40 cylinders, intead of 80, with 67.5tpi, instead > of the usual 135tpi.> > The original Sony FULL height drives were at 600RPM, and had a different > interface. > > The Tandy Portable Disk Drive, for the model 100, was weird and a half. But none of those are high-density drives. I'll add one of the issues may be drive-select setting for non-PC devices. It's easy enough to get around, however. --Chuck --===============6188544454353060943==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Mar 31 01:42:20 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3.5' 1.44 & 720K compatible Read/Write FDDs Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:42:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2c801483-acd4-c3be-de44-c01740cc52e0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2392370787166987762==" --===============2392370787166987762== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, those are not the drives you want. None of those exceptions. I was merely listing sone of the weird ones to avoid (or use for weird stuff) IF I remember correctly (unrefreshed dynamic wet-ware RAM), 34 pins of the 40 pins of the PS/2 drive were the same, and the other 6 pins had the power. I think that you could simply take a 40 pin cable, connected to the drive, and split off those 6 pins, and crimp a 34 pin connector on the remainder for the FDC end. Or, the other way around - a friend had generic drives in his PS/2. But, I have no idea where my notes went to, for the pinout of which of the 6 were which, and/or disk/change VS Ready, how they did the drive select, and possibly a few other minor weirdnesses. Pinout for PS/2 should be readily available. generic drives are still readily available and cheaper, so leave the PS/2 drive to the people with PS/2s. On Thu, 30 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/30/23 10:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> The drives in many IBM PS/2 machines don't seem to have a media sensor, >> so they can't tell the difference between "720K" and "1.4M" disks. >> "720K" is about 600 Oersted, and "1.4M" is about 750 Oersted, so they >> are close enough that sometimes one can get away with using the wrong one. > > Those PS/2 drives often have peculiar IBM-specific interfaces. For > example, some are 40 pin instead of 34. Or power is shared on the same > cable as signals, etc. > > You're not likely to consider them. > > >> There once existed single sided drives. Such as the original Shugart >> SA300 They were used in early Gavilans, but were replaceable with double >> sided, especially the SA350, which could use the Gavilan's custom SA300 >> bezel, >> >> Epson Geneva PX8 was 40 cylinders, intead of 80, with 67.5tpi, instead >> of the usual 135tpi.> >> The original Sony FULL height drives were at 600RPM, and had a different >> interface. >> >> The Tandy Portable Disk Drive, for the model 100, was weird and a half. > > But none of those are high-density drives. > > I'll add one of the issues may be drive-select setting for non-PC > devices. It's easy enough to get around, however. > > --Chuck --===============2392370787166987762==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri Mar 31 05:34:39 2023 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MIT Lisp Machine and ucode recovered Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 05:34:32 +0000 Message-ID: <7wpm8pv5zr.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8964991911423650634==" --===============8964991911423650634== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Moore wrote: > Here is a hello world: > (format t "Hello, World!") > It kinda works, need to throw maybe a \n on it, no idea what options format > takes. Do it like this: (format t "~&Hello, World!~%") Looks like Common Lisp documentation works for the System 100 FORMAT: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/22_c.htm --===============8964991911423650634==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Mar 31 12:52:14 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:51:59 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7185346237221948249==" --===============7185346237221948249== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Star Trek simulation game TREK7 was written in FORTRAN by Donald M. Ecclestone in the early 70ties for the PDP-10. The game was ported to VAX computers running VMS in 1978 by the author with the help of Dan Gahlinger. For some years TREK7 fell into a deep slumber until in 1993 Dan Gahlinger decided to revive it, but some severe bugs remained, hindering any successful round of game. Last year I began to work on the problems still present in TREK7. After detecting and fixing more than 60 bugs (mostly caused by transcription errors) step by step, the game is playable again now. Dan Gahlinger backed out of the project and I am the maintainer of TREK7 now. For details see: https://gunkies.org/wiki/TREK7 Former TREK7 players please give me a shout! Ulli The VAXorcist --===============7185346237221948249==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Fri Mar 31 12:59:17 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 07:59:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8229362057910253953==" --===============8229362057910253953== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Congrats! I am looking for star trek for fortran 4 if anyone knows where it is. Thanks, -Eric On Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 7:52 AM Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Star Trek simulation game TREK7 was written in FORTRAN by Donald M. > Ecclestone in the early 70ties for the PDP-10. > > The game was ported to VAX computers running VMS in 1978 by the author with > the help of Dan Gahlinger. > > For some years TREK7 fell into a deep slumber until in 1993 Dan Gahlinger > decided to revive it, but some severe bugs remained, hindering any > successful round of game. > > Last year I began to work on the problems still present in TREK7. > > After detecting and fixing more than 60 bugs (mostly caused by > transcription errors) step by step, the game is playable again now. > > Dan Gahlinger backed out of the project and I am the maintainer of TREK7 > now. > > For details see: https://gunkies.org/wiki/TREK7 > > Former TREK7 players please give me a shout! > > Ulli > The VAXorcist > --===============8229362057910253953==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Mar 31 17:53:59 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 19:53:43 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0215755233449308109==" --===============0215755233449308109== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good luck! What platform (hardware/operating system) do you want to use for the game? Eric Moore schrieb am Fr., 31. März 2023, 14:59: > Congrats! I am looking for star trek for fortran 4 if anyone knows where > it is. > > Thanks, > > -Eric > > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 7:52 AM Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> The Star Trek simulation game TREK7 was written in FORTRAN by Donald M. >> Ecclestone in the early 70ties for the PDP-10. >> >> The game was ported to VAX computers running VMS in 1978 by the author >> with >> the help of Dan Gahlinger. >> >> For some years TREK7 fell into a deep slumber until in 1993 Dan Gahlinger >> decided to revive it, but some severe bugs remained, hindering any >> successful round of game. >> >> Last year I began to work on the problems still present in TREK7. >> >> After detecting and fixing more than 60 bugs (mostly caused by >> transcription errors) step by step, the game is playable again now. >> >> Dan Gahlinger backed out of the project and I am the maintainer of TREK7 >> now. >> >> For details see: https://gunkies.org/wiki/TREK7 >> >> Former TREK7 players please give me a shout! >> >> Ulli >> The VAXorcist >> > --===============0215755233449308109==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Fri Mar 31 18:07:24 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:07:07 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4025777770023657694==" --===============4025777770023657694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No OS, SEL 810A FORTRAN IV COMPILER for my purposes, and data general nova for a friend. Really any fortran 4 game would be great. -Eric On Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 12:53 PM Hans-Ulrich Hölscher < vaxorcist(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > Good luck! > What platform (hardware/operating system) do you want to use for the game? > > Eric Moore schrieb am Fr., 31. März 2023, 14:59: > >> Congrats! I am looking for star trek for fortran 4 if anyone knows where >> it is. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -Eric >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 7:52 AM Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> The Star Trek simulation game TREK7 was written in FORTRAN by Donald M. >>> Ecclestone in the early 70ties for the PDP-10. >>> >>> The game was ported to VAX computers running VMS in 1978 by the author >>> with >>> the help of Dan Gahlinger. >>> >>> For some years TREK7 fell into a deep slumber until in 1993 Dan Gahlinger >>> decided to revive it, but some severe bugs remained, hindering any >>> successful round of game. >>> >>> Last year I began to work on the problems still present in TREK7. >>> >>> After detecting and fixing more than 60 bugs (mostly caused by >>> transcription errors) step by step, the game is playable again now. >>> >>> Dan Gahlinger backed out of the project and I am the maintainer of TREK7 >>> now. >>> >>> For details see: https://gunkies.org/wiki/TREK7 >>> >>> Former TREK7 players please give me a shout! >>> >>> Ulli >>> The VAXorcist >>> >> --===============4025777770023657694==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Mar 31 18:16:00 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 20:15:45 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3284718906069729976==" --===============3284718906069729976== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TREK7 is probably Fortran IV as it dates back to the early 70ties. Have a look at the link in my first mail. Ulli Eric Moore schrieb am Fr., 31. M=C3=A4rz 2023, 20:= 07: > No OS, SEL 810A FORTRAN IV COMPILER for my purposes, and data general nova > for a friend. > > Really any fortran 4 game would be great. > > -Eric > > > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 12:53 PM Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher < > vaxorcist(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Good luck! >> What platform (hardware/operating system) do you want to use for the game? >> >> Eric Moore schrieb am Fr., 31. M=C3=A4rz 2023, = 14:59: >> >>> Congrats! I am looking for star trek for fortran 4 if anyone knows where >>> it is. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -Eric >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 7:52 AM Hans-Ulrich H=C3=B6lscher via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> The Star Trek simulation game TREK7 was written in FORTRAN by Donald M. >>>> Ecclestone in the early 70ties for the PDP-10. >>>> >>>> The game was ported to VAX computers running VMS in 1978 by the author >>>> with >>>> the help of Dan Gahlinger. >>>> >>>> For some years TREK7 fell into a deep slumber until in 1993 Dan >>>> Gahlinger >>>> decided to revive it, but some severe bugs remained, hindering any >>>> successful round of game. >>>> >>>> Last year I began to work on the problems still present in TREK7. >>>> >>>> After detecting and fixing more than 60 bugs (mostly caused by >>>> transcription errors) step by step, the game is playable again now. >>>> >>>> Dan Gahlinger backed out of the project and I am the maintainer of TREK7 >>>> now. >>>> >>>> For details see: https://gunkies.org/wiki/TREK7 >>>> >>>> Former TREK7 players please give me a shout! >>>> >>>> Ulli >>>> The VAXorcist >>>> >>> --===============3284718906069729976==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Fri Mar 31 18:25:17 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 08:57:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2340255956314675780==" --===============2340255956314675780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nice! I always wondered if this would run on a split I/D pdp11. Time to check... C On 3/31/2023 8:51 AM, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk wrote: > The Star Trek simulation game TREK7 was written in FORTRAN by Donald M. > Ecclestone in the early 70ties for the PDP-10. > > The game was ported to VAX computers running VMS in 1978 by the author with > the help of Dan Gahlinger. > > For some years TREK7 fell into a deep slumber until in 1993 Dan Gahlinger > decided to revive it, but some severe bugs remained, hindering any > successful round of game. > > Last year I began to work on the problems still present in TREK7. > > After detecting and fixing more than 60 bugs (mostly caused by > transcription errors) step by step, the game is playable again now. > > Dan Gahlinger backed out of the project and I am the maintainer of TREK7 > now. > > For details see: https://gunkies.org/wiki/TREK7 > > Former TREK7 players please give me a shout! > > Ulli > The VAXorcist --===============2340255956314675780==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Fri Mar 31 18:38:19 2023 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:37:07 -0400 Message-ID: <0ebe01d963ff$cd0ef4a0$672cdde0$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7727763320880363985==" --===============7727763320880363985== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In 1979, on an HP3000, we used to play a game called galaxy. It seems somewh= at like the description on your web page but I'm sure it allowed for more tha= n four players. I don't know if Frank McConnell still reads this list, maybe= he knows if there was any relation between the two. One thing I remember is= that, if you ran the game and no one else was on, you could go hunting derel= icts, ships that were still in the game database, left when someone disconnec= ted without properly exiting the game. Whenever the game was running, it wou= ld continue to update the position of these ships, based on their last speed.= The long range sensor display could zoom out to show the whole universe and= you could see a cloud of derelict ships at the extreme edges. Bill S. --=20 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============7727763320880363985==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Mar 31 18:40:21 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:39:50 -0400 Message-ID: <7C5AFB50-9279-4FB7-9590-C765DFEF1063@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <0ebe01d963ff$cd0ef4a0$672cdde0$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7270604904537695572==" --===============7270604904537695572== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder if there is a connection with the very popular (mid 1970s) PLATO gam= e "empire". That was a Star Trek inspired game with graphics, up to 30 playe= rs, four teams. paul > On Mar 31, 2023, at 2:37 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: >=20 > In 1979, on an HP3000, we used to play a game called galaxy. It seems some= what like the description on your web page but I'm sure it allowed for more t= han four players. I don't know if Frank McConnell still reads this list, may= be he knows if there was any relation between the two. One thing I remember = is that, if you ran the game and no one else was on, you could go hunting der= elicts, ships that were still in the game database, left when someone disconn= ected without properly exiting the game. Whenever the game was running, it w= ould continue to update the position of these ships, based on their last spee= d. The long range sensor display could zoom out to show the whole universe a= nd you could see a cloud of derelict ships at the extreme edges. >=20 > Bill S. >=20 >=20 > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com --===============7270604904537695572==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Mar 31 20:40:41 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 22:40:20 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7790678788696298918==" --===============7790678788696298918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The TREK7 sources compile perfectly with: *fortran /nof77 treka.for* The VMS HELP says: *$ help fortran /nof77 FORTRAN /F77 (D) /NOF77 Controls whether FORTRAN-77 interpretation rules are used for those statements that have a meaning that is incompatible with FORTRAN IV-PLUS. The default is /F77. If you specify /NOF77, the compiler selects FORTRAN IV-PLUS interpretations in cases of incompatibility.* Looks like it's really FORTRAN IV, but maybe with some VMS specifics and extensions ... Ulli Am Fr., 31. März 2023 um 20:15 Uhr schrieb Hans-Ulrich Hölscher < vaxorcist(a)googlemail.com>: > TREK7 is probably Fortran IV as it dates back to the early 70ties. > Have a look at the link in my first mail. > Ulli > > Eric Moore schrieb am Fr., 31. März 2023, 20:07: > >> No OS, SEL 810A FORTRAN IV COMPILER for my purposes, and data general >> nova for a friend. >> >> Really any fortran 4 game would be great. >> >> -Eric >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 12:53 PM Hans-Ulrich Hölscher < >> vaxorcist(a)googlemail.com> wrote: >> >>> Good luck! >>> What platform (hardware/operating system) do you want to use for the >>> game? >>> >>> Eric Moore schrieb am Fr., 31. März 2023, >>> 14:59: >>> >>>> Congrats! I am looking for star trek for fortran 4 if anyone knows >>>> where it is. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -Eric >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 7:52 AM Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < >>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The Star Trek simulation game TREK7 was written in FORTRAN by Donald M. >>>>> Ecclestone in the early 70ties for the PDP-10. >>>>> >>>>> The game was ported to VAX computers running VMS in 1978 by the author >>>>> with >>>>> the help of Dan Gahlinger. >>>>> >>>>> For some years TREK7 fell into a deep slumber until in 1993 Dan >>>>> Gahlinger >>>>> decided to revive it, but some severe bugs remained, hindering any >>>>> successful round of game. >>>>> >>>>> Last year I began to work on the problems still present in TREK7. >>>>> >>>>> After detecting and fixing more than 60 bugs (mostly caused by >>>>> transcription errors) step by step, the game is playable again now. >>>>> >>>>> Dan Gahlinger backed out of the project and I am the maintainer of >>>>> TREK7 >>>>> now. >>>>> >>>>> For details see: https://gunkies.org/wiki/TREK7 >>>>> >>>>> Former TREK7 players please give me a shout! >>>>> >>>>> Ulli >>>>> The VAXorcist >>>>> >>>> --===============7790678788696298918==-- From henry.r.bent@gmail.com Fri Mar 31 20:59:45 2023 From: Henry Bent To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 20:59:24 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4118712334295786693==" --===============4118712334295786693== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 12:52 Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Star Trek simulation game TREK7 was written in FORTRAN by Donald M. > Ecclestone in the early 70ties for the PDP-10. > Does this original version survive? In any case, this VMS version is very interesting and I look forward to trying it out. -Henry > --===============4118712334295786693==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Fri Mar 31 21:04:57 2023 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 23:04:42 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2727697348174298937==" --===============2727697348174298937== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, no - the PDP-10 version apparently did not survive. But there's still some PDP-10 specific code contained (commented out) in the TREK7 sources and I think a backport should be possible. Unfortunately I'm not good at the PDP-10 and its operating system(s), so I could only help with my FORTRAN knowledge ... Ulli Am Fr., 31. März 2023 um 22:59 Uhr schrieb Henry Bent via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>: > On Fri, Mar 31, 2023, 12:52 Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The Star Trek simulation game TREK7 was written in FORTRAN by Donald M. > > Ecclestone in the early 70ties for the PDP-10. > > > > Does this original version survive? In any case, this VMS version is very > interesting and I look forward to trying it out. > > -Henry > > > > --===============2727697348174298937==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Mar 31 21:52:33 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TREK7 is back! - TREK7 FORTRAN Multi-User Game (PDP-10/VAX) Revived Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:52:19 -0700 Message-ID: <45371672-8610-f463-9bee-bae6db8421ed@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6082714945673524922==" --===============6082714945673524922== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/31/23 14:04, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk wrote: > Sorry, no - the PDP-10 version apparently did not survive. > But there's still some PDP-10 specific code contained (commented out) in > the TREK7 sources and I think a backport should be possible. > Unfortunately I'm not good at the PDP-10 and its operating system(s), so I > could only help with my FORTRAN knowledge ... > Ulli FORTRAN was used for a lot of entertainment software back then. Chess 3.0 most definitely was (CDC FORTRAN), as well as Adventure (PDP-10 FORTRAN). Neither was "straight" FORTRAN IV, as there was no official (X3.4.3 or X3.9) ban on vendor "extensions"--and vendors went bonkers extending the language. All one need do is to look in the back of McCracken's FORTRAN IV book. That being said, it was certainly possible to write "portable" FORTRAN, but day-to-day, nobody did. There was no "character" type in F66; indeed the world was a mixture of 6- and 8-bit "byte" systems--and many were not byte-addressable. There wasn't even an official collating sequence, so the only test that could meaningfully be made on an integer holding a character value was equality or inequality. Read in the alphabet using 80A1 format and do all your character manipulation by referring to that. Numeric FORTRAN benchmarks (i.e. real benchmark code that was used to qualify a vendor for a given contract) were pretty much the rule. --Chuck --===============6082714945673524922==--