From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Jan 1 13:39:10 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2023 14:38:33 +0100 Message-ID: <5226dd58-d3cb-f4b8-e3ab-c4195e8145cf@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <77511893-b967-7349-2bb0-a6d0f7af2905@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5369936689081786313==" --===============5369936689081786313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, ben wrote: > How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep the ? > and ? 's > and not printing _ and ^ ? I'm scratching my head... you want to keep the question marks? But I guess you mean the back arrow and the up arrow. Christian --===============5369936689081786313==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sun Jan 1 13:54:22 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2023 13:53:55 +0000 Message-ID: <6f98ce3fb6e44db09d4169b6fae6ed22@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> In-Reply-To: <5226dd58-d3cb-f4b8-e3ab-c4195e8145cf@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0226892338934492100==" --===============0226892338934492100== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks - wishing all a Good New Year Ben The first ingredient must be a printer with a a suitable font table, in these= times of soft fonts that should be a given or tractable. The second element is to convert to and use an MCS / multibyte character repr= esentation - which can differentiate _ ^ and the desired arrow marks. To do this you could: - load the file into an editor, save it in MCS format, perform the necessary = substitutions (two global replaces) - write a program / script to achieve the same effect, read char and convert/= translate to MCS octets. Note. It is just possible you will find a font with the arrows in the upper = 128 glyphs of 8 bit "ascii", in which case you can skip the MCS conversion. HtH Martin -----Original Message----- From: Christian Corti via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 01 January 2023 13:39 To: ClassicCmp Cc: Christian Corti Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, ben wrote: > How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep the ?= =20 > and ? 's > and not printing _ and ^ ? I'm scratching my head... you want to keep the question marks? But I guess you mean the back arrow and the up arrow. Christian --===============0226892338934492100==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 1 13:57:02 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2023 06:56:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5226dd58-d3cb-f4b8-e3ab-c4195e8145cf@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7230239197700147221==" --===============7230239197700147221== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-01 6:38 a.m., Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, ben wrote: >> How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep >> the ? and ? 's >> and not printing _ and ^ ? > > I'm scratching my head... you want to keep the question marks? > But I guess you mean the back arrow and the up arrow. > > Christian ' ? and ? 's ' The joys of the many standards of text encoding. I suppose the only way would be to write filters for older text like ascii 63,65 and field data in K&R C, or assembly to encode it to utf-8 Unicode. Ben. --===============7230239197700147221==-- From taipanromania@gmail.com Sun Jan 1 14:19:33 2023 From: BogDan Vatra To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Altos 386 series 1000 installation disks & tape Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2023 13:09:13 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5061038428446671703==" --===============5061038428446671703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello there, Earlier this December I got an Altos 386 series 1000 with lots of documentation and some installation floppy disks and one tape. I must say that it's an amazing machine! I'd like to reinstall the os but I have two problems: 1. It can not access the floppy drive. I tried it with another one, but still no joy. Does anyone have any schematics of the motherboard? I ordered a new floppy controller but in case the controller is not the faulty piece I'll need some schematics to track the problem. 2. I could clone some of the floppy disks on another computer but not all of them. I also found that the tape is overwritten with something else. Does anyone have these installation media? I'm missing sdx v3.6s0, aom menu shell v 3.0s2, Altos system v rts upd V5.3es2 and the tape Altos system v rts v5.3eT2 (utilities). Anyone know how to contact the Altos folks? Maybe they still have and are kind to share the installation media and the schematics. I have cloned Altos system v rts v5.3es2 (root), Altos multiview 1.6.2s0 two disks and the HDD. Btw, none of the Linux filesystem modules could not mount the hdd, therefore I created one based on fuse. If anyone needs such a thing you can find the srcs here : https://github.com/bog-dan-ro/altos . Happy new year! Yours, BogDan. P.S. I contacted Al from bitsavers, and my floppy disks clones will land to his collection (http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/Altos/386-series/) P.S.' Al's tape image clone has a strange tar like format, does anyone know what's the exact format? I'd like to create a tool to extract them... --===============5061038428446671703==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 1 14:27:34 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2023 07:27:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6f98ce3fb6e44db09d4169b6fae6ed22@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2920949374992084608==" --===============2920949374992084608== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-01 6:53 a.m., Martin Bishop wrote: > Folks - wishing all a Good New Year >=20 > Ben > The first ingredient must be a printer with a a suitable font table, in the= se times of soft fonts that should be a given or tractable. > The second element is to convert to and use an MCS / multibyte character re= presentation - which can differentiate _ ^ and the desired arrow marks. > To do this you could: > - load the file into an editor, save it in MCS format, perform the necessar= y substitutions (two global replaces) > - write a program / script to achieve the same effect, read char and conver= t/translate to MCS octets. > Note. It is just possible you will find a font with the arrows in the uppe= r 128 glyphs of 8 bit "ascii", in which case you can skip the MCS conversion. > HtH >=20 > Martin A filter of some kind is needed. With the rise of emulators for old machines,I can see text being written with terminal emulation of the orginal i/o devices, but that leaves printing or tranfering text files a problem. JOE could have a REAL - big iron 67, SAM runs windows 2000, TOM has a=20 micro VAX. Every thing gets dumped to the cloud. One must keep data as files, none of this crappy mess that this modern 'buy a app' to print,or read. How does one share binary and paper tape/cards as files? Ben. PS: Back to inventing big iron 67. tag line: Cloud computing delayed to to bad weather, server is under 3=20 feet of snow. --===============2920949374992084608==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jan 1 17:02:38 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2023 09:02:08 -0800 Message-ID: <7f29314e-a612-dd37-07e3-300ce4041abc@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6052477044363689291==" --===============6052477044363689291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/1/23 05:56, ben via cctalk wrote: > ' ? and ? 's ' >  The joys of the many standards of text encoding. >  I suppose the only way would be to write filters for older text > like ascii 63,65 and field data in K&R C, or assembly to encode it to > utf-8 Unicode. > Ben. You didn't specify the printer or the operating system.   However, on Linux, I'd first run iconv to get the thing to UTF-8 and then run a short sed to convert the characters to the corresponding code point characters. But that's Linux and me.   May we assume that you're running an OS out of Redmond? --Chuck --===============6052477044363689291==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sun Jan 1 17:05:08 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2023 17:04:41 +0000 Message-ID: <9337133aa59844ce9dc9575fd6b15870@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3503340757329353688==" --===============3503340757329353688== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ben I think you have the essence of a solution, using the Unix filter paradigm at= user or driver level. Your desire to retain the original file format(s) is very sensible, it is alw= ays best to record "raw" data - for the greatest fidelity. The ISO 7-layer model provides a paradigm for data transport/storage formats = and derived (presentation) formats. Good luck with the weather Martin -----Original Message----- From: ben [mailto:bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca] Sent: 01 January 2023 14:27 To: Martin Bishop ; General Discussion: = On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. On 2023-01-01 6:53 a.m., Martin Bishop wrote: > Folks - wishing all a Good New Year >=20 > Ben > The first ingredient must be a printer with a a suitable font table, in the= se times of soft fonts that should be a given or tractable. > The second element is to convert to and use an MCS / multibyte character re= presentation - which can differentiate _ ^ and the desired arrow marks. > To do this you could: > - load the file into an editor, save it in MCS format, perform the=20 > necessary substitutions (two global replaces) > - write a program / script to achieve the same effect, read char and conver= t/translate to MCS octets. > Note. It is just possible you will find a font with the arrows in the uppe= r 128 glyphs of 8 bit "ascii", in which case you can skip the MCS conversion. > HtH >=20 > Martin A filter of some kind is needed. With the rise of emulators for old machines,I can see text being written with= terminal emulation of the orginal i/o devices, but that leaves printing or t= ranfering text files a problem. JOE could have a REAL - big iron 67, SAM runs windows 2000, TOM has a micro V= AX. Every thing gets dumped to the cloud. One must keep data as files, none of this crappy mess that this modern 'buy a= app' to print,or read. How does one share binary and paper tape/cards as files? Ben. PS: Back to inventing big iron 67. tag line: Cloud computing delayed to to bad weather, server is under 3 feet o= f snow. --===============3503340757329353688==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 1 19:01:43 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2023 12:01:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7f29314e-a612-dd37-07e3-300ce4041abc@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1327419291733407550==" --===============1327419291733407550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-01 10:02 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > But that's Linux and me.   May we assume that you're running an OS out > of Redmond? No out my basement :) I got a DE1 FPGA card here, and putting a classic style computer on it. New year, new design, new front panel. I have a few designs out but they all use ASCII 1967. I am unhappy with ASCII so I want to come up with my own character standard , lower case and some programming symbols. Left arrow, not equals, logic not,sub script 10,little dash. Programming the key board and video display is no problem, but printing is a problem. I can send text files/receive text files to a windows machine for editing and printing. I am also unhappy with all the programming languages out there, so I want write my own, using a meta compiler. What I would like to get is a serial printer (rs232), with a definable character set. Does any one know of a cheap one? > --Chuck > Ben. --===============1327419291733407550==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jan 1 19:21:20 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2023 11:14:48 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0639642397243934086==" --===============0639642397243934086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/1/23 11:01, ben via cctalk wrote: > > What I would like to get is a serial printer (rs232), with a definable > character set. Does any one know of a cheap one? > Look around for a later dot-matrix printer (e.g. Epson, Oki, etc.)  Many have downloadable font features and serial options. --Chuck --===============0639642397243934086==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 2 08:19:23 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] OT but FREE: really beat up Asus eeePC 900A (Linux) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2023 08:18:51 +0000 Message-ID: <86619009.4857271.1672647531868@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <86619009.4857271.1672647531868.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8710157069686957103==" --===============8710157069686957103== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Broken monitor hinges. All sort of madness. No screws. No structural integrit= y whatsoever. But the sucker works. Assuming you glue it all to the point it'= ll sit up strait on it's lonesomes, plan on an external mouse and keyboard (k= b works though afaik). You pay shipping from 08758. Check or m.o. only. --===============8710157069686957103==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 2 08:50:49 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Altos 486 (was: Altos 386 series 1000 installation disks & tape) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2023 09:50:20 +0100 Message-ID: <4bab97c-d5de-94a9-88fe-7cf994e15b4@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7052599610525014714==" --===============7052599610525014714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, BogDan Vatra wrote: > Earlier this December I got an Altos 386 series 1000 with lots of > documentation and some installation floppy disks and one tape. I must say > that it's an amazing machine! > I'd like to reinstall the os but I have two problems: I have an Altos 486 System 1000 (*not* the same as the Altos 486) and an Altos terminal, but I am completely missing the software. So if by any chance someone has the software images for it :-) Christian --===============7052599610525014714==-- From bogdan@kde.org Mon Jan 2 14:38:09 2023 From: BogDan Vatra To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altos 486 (was: Altos 386 series 1000 installation disks & tape) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2023 16:29:13 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4bab97c-d5de-94a9-88fe-7cf994e15b4@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4801841419684235251==" --===============4801841419684235251== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =C3=8En lun., 2 ian. 2023 la 10:50, Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> a scris: > On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, BogDan Vatra wrote: > > Earlier this December I got an Altos 386 series 1000 with lots of > > documentation and some installation floppy disks and one tape. I must say > > that it's an amazing machine! > > I'd like to reinstall the os but I have two problems: > > I have an Altos 486 System 1000 (*not* the same as the Altos 486) and an > Altos terminal, but I am completely missing the software. > So if by any chance someone has the software images for it :-) > > Christian > According to https://techmonitor.ai/technology/altos_claims_tripled_performance_for_its_ne= w_486_1000_unix_machine the 486 should work with SCO as well. This means you're lucky as you can find it on the net (e.g. archive.org or https://vetusware.com/manufacturer/SCO/?author=3D490). If it has a video card, you can try linux or [Net|Open]BSD on it ;-). Cheers, BogDan. --===============4801841419684235251==-- From Flash688@flying-disk.com Mon Jan 2 20:39:56 2023 From: Alan Frisbie To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2023 12:31:48 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167268240943.1602.11093291409506321797@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3993267275409520479==" --===============3993267275409520479== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ben wrote: > What I would like to get is a serial printer (rs232), with a definable > character set. Does any one know of a cheap one? Probably not cheap unless you get lucky, but an excellent choice would be the Toshiba P1351 (not to be confused with their later 1351 laser printer) or the narrower P1340. They are 24-pin dot-matrix printers that feature downloadable fonts and both serial and parallel interfaces. I got my P1351 in 1984 and it has served me well. I created (OK, stole from Xerox) a double-high double-wide font that I used for printing box labels when I moved. You could also do really nice graphics with it, at a resolution of 180 x 180. CCSI (Cerritos Computer Systems Inc.) wrote a driver for the P1351 for their CCSI-Plot (Plot-10 compatible) plotting package. I can provide a copy of the software (in Fortran for PDP-11) and scans of the manuals for both the software and printer, should you get one. You can still buy ribbons for it, so it would be a really good choice. Alan Frisbie --===============3993267275409520479==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon Jan 2 22:58:26 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Old QIC02 tape drive problems Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2023 17:57:58 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8796352084589844645==" --===============8796352084589844645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 Happy New Year everybody. Pleased with my success at getting a QIC02 drive running through an MTI MSV05B on my RT11 system today, my jaw dropped when I did a DIR MS0: and saw the pulley turning and the tape not moving, as liquid rubber starting accumulating on the drive belt! It turns out that the rubber wheel inside the TK25 cartridge had melted. OK, the cartridge goes in the bin, but has anybody found a way to clean the residue off the drive without damaging the drive belt? As always, any advice (other than to dump the whole thing :-) ) gratefully accepted. Nigel --===============8796352084589844645==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 3 08:09:05 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Altos 486 (was: Altos 386 series 1000 installation disks & tape) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2023 09:08:31 +0100 Message-ID: <4eabb460-d1df-a259-9fbb-da73cc7f471@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2081170657877716556==" --===============2081170657877716556== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2 Jan 2023, BogDan Vatra wrote: > According to > https://techmonitor.ai/technology/altos_claims_tripled_performance_for_its_= new_486_1000_unix_machine > the 486 should work with SCO as well. This means you're lucky as you can > find it on the net (e.g. archive.org or > https://vetusware.com/manufacturer/SCO/?author=3D490). > If it has a video card, you can try linux or [Net|Open]BSD on it ;-). Ehm, apparently you are not aware that the Altos is not a PC. Christian --===============2081170657877716556==-- From charlesmorris800@centurytel.net Tue Jan 3 13:39:21 2023 From: Charles To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Thinking of selling my 11/23+ Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2023 20:05:31 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7490014625444692299==" --===============7490014625444692299== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there any interest in my working 11/23+ system? I rarely run it any more, but don't know what it's worth. Corporate cabinet, VT220 console, 4 MB RAM, two RL02 drives (RT-11XM, TSX-Plus 6.50), interface for 3.5" floppy drive, 16 serial ports. Located in south central Missouri so pickup would be greatly preferred :) thanks Charles --===============7490014625444692299==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Tue Jan 3 13:39:42 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fixing a MSV11-QC, tables wrong? Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2023 01:34:34 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <10d098da-fd6a-82f1-4518-b7562ca8adc7@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8014712946015819749==" --===============8014712946015819749== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, in the category of "it ain't gonna fix itself" I fixed it. Testing in progress - Please wait Memory Size is 4088 K Bytes 9 Step memory test Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Message 04 Entering Dialog mode The problem with the memory was that one of the 256k*1 chips was bad. Easy to find, it was bit 4000 in the top of the second 1mw memory half. Problem is while the table on the gunkies.org site is accurate for bits within a word, it's totally inaccurate when it comes to describing the banks. (Note: I'm using 16 bit words as the board has the chips laid out in 18 bit stripes. 16 for data, 2 for parity) The banks of memory are laid out as follows: 1 2 5 6 3 4 7 8 going across the board. Thus bank 1 is 0-256kw and is across the top. The second bank for 256-512kw is right underneath it, then you skip the next two rows to get to 512-768kw. Then the row under that is 768-1024kw To go to the second half of memory you go back up then to row 3 which is bank 5 (1024-1280), then 6, then skip 2 to get to bank 7 and 8. Realized this when I found a picture of an MSV11-P memory that had only half the chips. DEC put them in that same order, and they did the same on the MSV11-Q memories. So I RULE! And now I have a full 4mb memory card. Not sure what to do with it, I think my next step is going to be to take this 1mb msv11-JD memory board and see if I can put on enough chips to make it a 2mb JE board. Because PMI memory is just faster... :-) C On 12/31/2022 6:34 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > So I have an MSV11-QC (the 4gb Q Bus memory board) that has a failed > bit. On an 11/73 it throws the following error: > > Expected data   = 125252 (1010 1010 1010 1010 > Bad data        = 121252 (1010 0010 1010 1010) > Address         = 10015140 > > Which puts the error in the top 2mb (1mw), bit 4000. No biggie, > consulting the matrix at: > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-Q_QBUS_memory > > Shows this to be bank 4, bit 4000 or E85. > > Cut out E85, popped the board in (to double check before replacing) and > I see this: > > Expected data   = 125252 > Bad data        = 121252 > Address         = 02015140 > > Ooops. That would be decimal 531,040 which puts it in bank 1? Which > should be E88, where did I go wrong here? > > Or is the table for the MSV11-Q only valid for the 64k ones and not the > 256k ones? If so the bits may be right, but the banks are different. > > Anyone want to cross-check this or my maths? > > Thanks! > CZ > > PS: Sorry if duplicates are getting sent to the list. I'm retiring > cz(a)alembic.crystel.com and replacing it with cz(a)beaker.crystel.com. If > the list manager could update my email I would appreciate! --===============8014712946015819749==-- From david@ray5.net Tue Jan 3 13:40:02 2023 From: David Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Space-Time Productions Z80 board Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2023 16:36:06 +0000 Message-ID: <8DBA3571-3B93-4654-980A-31BF43B8EA38@ray5.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9136877358202704166==" --===============9136877358202704166== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amardeep S Chana, I have the Joel Owens=E2=80=99 Z80 Master Controller Board that you asked abo= ut back in October of 2017. I have a folder of collected documents. If you= are still interested I could share those some place. /David Ray --===============9136877358202704166==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Tue Jan 3 15:28:08 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Thinking of selling my 11/23+ Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2023 09:02:35 -0500 Message-ID: <75027c30-3f40-ee78-864b-60838aa5985f@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5434654083182543960==" --===============5434654083182543960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Corporate cabinet, VT220 console, 4 MB RAM, two RL02 drives (RT-11XM, > TSX-Plus 6.50), interface for 3.5" floppy drive, 16 serial ports. Nice little system. Before you send it off would it be possible to use pdpgui to image the RL02 disks? A genned TSX would be nice for emulators and such. Chris --===============5434654083182543960==-- From lx@crystalhobs.org.uk Wed Jan 4 12:18:31 2023 From: Chris Bryant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC/HP computers from deceased collector (nr Andover UK) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2023 12:11:48 +0000 Message-ID: <189307a0-3db4-97ed-adb5-eea43b6188b2@crystalhobs.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6916686364855786191==" --===============6916686364855786191== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Through a mutual friend I've been shown a collection of computers: MicroVAX 3400 - the module complement is KA640-AA/MS650-AA, MS650-AA, CXY08-M, TQK70 (with a TK70 drive), M9060-YA. In a floor-standing enclosure with "BA213 CPU Mod" on the label, and Model 640QS-B3 Alphastation 200 4/233 - there are three of these Compaq AlphaServer DS10 Vaxstation 3100 also HP Visualise C3000 - a pair The widow believes they were working when last used. They are available free to a good home/modest donation. Photos etc available. Chris --===============6916686364855786191==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Wed Jan 4 15:30:41 2023 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP-11 System Identification Register Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2023 15:30:10 +0000 Message-ID: <9d282cfbdbe142d3a4ff7f6161fdb3a1@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6302244316952944870==" --===============6302244316952944870== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can't find very much information about the PDP-11 System Identification Regis= ter : RO at 77777764 The occasional processor handbook says not implemented or the 11/xy reports n= um. Interogative : information sources, e.g. a tabulation of known values Martin --===============6302244316952944870==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jan 4 15:42:28 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-11 System Identification Register Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2023 10:41:53 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9d282cfbdbe142d3a4ff7f6161fdb3a1@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7317592804627569295==" --===============7317592804627569295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The PDP11 architecture manual says it's specific to the 11/70, and the 11/70 = handbook says it contains information "uniquely identifying each system" -- w= hich suggests that it contains a serial number or equivalent. It's not clear what purpose it serves. RSTS (in the Init "Hardware List" com= mand) will display it but apart from that I don't see it used, which makes se= nse. paul > On Jan 4, 2023, at 10:30 AM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Can't find very much information about the PDP-11 System Identification Reg= ister : RO at 77777764 >=20 > The occasional processor handbook says not implemented or the 11/xy reports= num. >=20 > Interogative : information sources, e.g. a tabulation of known values >=20 > Martin >=20 --===============7317592804627569295==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 4 20:27:32 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC and compatible boards for sale Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2023 11:01:24 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3927050914704444305==" --===============3927050914704444305== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit An acquaintance of mine as the following boards for sale. Please email him directly at bojo7777(a)yahoo.com if you are interested.  Please mention the board number and box when emailing him. Please forgive any cross posting. DEC Boards Box QTY. DEC # BUS Number Description d 1 3010-5004 d 2 3010-6001 d 3 3010-6002 d 1 3010-6003 d 2 3010-6006 d 3 3010-6007 d 1 3010-6008 c 1 9400-6201 c 1 9400-6202 c 1 9400-6203 c 1 9400-6214 d 1 9901-5040 d 1 9901-6047 e 1 B212 Dual RS FF, Dus Driver Out, Delayed & Not Delayed RS Inputs b 1 G190Control & Data card Loops G109 / 5009709H f 1 U G7273 Bus Grant and Non-Processor Grant Jumper i 1 LPWR GS-2 e 2 M101 (one has front half of tab broken) Bus Data Interface (2 inpout gates, 15 circuits, 1 common and 1 independent input e 4 M111 16 Independent Inverters e 5 M113 10-2 Input NAND Gates e 1 M302 2 One Shot Delays i 1 M3110 i 1 M3111 b 1 M3112 j 1 U M5903 MASSBUS Terminal Transceiver g 3 U M5922 RM03 Transceiver Port A b 1 VMV21 U M7067 Video Display Sys:Sync Generator & Character Generator (64-Char x 25 lines) i 1 KDF11-UA U M7133 11/24 CPU Board, line clock & 2 SLUs i 1 KDF11-UA U M7133 11/24 CPU Board, line clock & 2 SLUs g 1 RK11-D U M7255 RK05 Disk Control Module b 1 M7684 control sequencer RM02/RM03 Control Sequencer i 1 M7686 control interface RM02/RM03 Control Interface i 1 RL11 U M7762 RL01/02 Disk Drive Controller i 1 DEUNA U M7792 DEUNA Port Module.Unibus to Ethernet Controller e 1 U M783 Bus Transmitters 12 Drivers e 1 U M783 Same part# as above but longer version board Bus Transmitters 12 Drivers e 1 U M785 Bus Transceiver, 8 Drivers/8 Receivers e 3 U M785 Same part# as above, but longer version board Bus Transceiver, 8 Drivers/8 Receivers g 1 DL11-W U M7856 SLU & Realtime Clock Option c 1 DUP11-DA U M7867 SDLC or DDCMP Synchronous Interface h 2 DRV11-B Q M7950 16-bit DMA Parallel Gneral Purpose Interface a 1 MSV11-CD Q M7955 LSI MOS memory (missing tabs on front) 16K x 16 MOS RAM with on board refresh h 1 RLV11 Q M8014 RLV11 Bus control RL01 Bus Controller Board 2 f 1 MSV11-DD Q M8044 DC 32K x 16 MOS RAM f 1 MSV11-DD Q M8044 DM 32K x 16 MOS RAM h 1 RLV12 Q M8061 RL01/RL02 Disk Control, 22 bit address a 1 M8093 RM02/RM03 c 1 M8278 RM02/RM03 a 1 TM02-FE U M8901 Data Synchronizer 75 IPS Drives (Tu16) a 1 TM02-FE U M8901 YB Data Synchronizer 75 IPS Drives j 1 M8912 TU16 Slave Test Function Generator b 1 M8916 Logic and Write RM02/RM03 Logic And Write g 1 M8932 RM02/RM03 a 1 M8934 RM02/RM03 f 1 M9001 YC Bus Conneector, 2 H854's Bussed Together, All signals come out, 8 lines jumpered to ground, terminated. j 1 Q M9047 Grant Continuity f 1 U M9312 Bootstrap Terminator w/5 ROM Sockets e 2 NAND gates If this is an M937 it is an internal PDP-8/E Internal Bus Connector Mirror of M936 i 1 G231EPDP II memory driver G231E XY Selection, Current Source, Address Latch & 8K Decode b 1 S TK TU16 Read Amp board 5012235C RM02/RM03 Tk Tu Read Amp Board C e 1 TP-0109 8 bit counter regulator RM02/RM03 Bit Counter Regulator g 1 W940 * Has 10 rows of 5 per row inserts for ic chips, but no chips on board.* Wire Wrap Board with pins on component side f 1 W941 Wire Wrap Board with holes for 25 16 pin Ics j 1 W943 Wire Wrap Board with sockets for 25 16 pin Ics h 1 Q W9514 W912 Wire Wrap Module with 25 pre-mounted DIP sockets Stu Phillips Quantity Description Bus Additional Description 1 306A 1 DAC-II Rev-B Andromeda systems Q Digital to Analog Converter (4 Channels, 12 bits) 1 MSI-11 Andromeda systems Q Multiple Serial Interface (4 Serial, 1 can be used for parallel printer) 4 303-0225 2 303-0171-001P5 has 4 rows of 8 chips 1 No PN: looks identical to 303-0171P5 but no chips on it. ADAC Quantity Descripton 2 MO: 1900 D4-10060 rev-7 U Unibus from qbus translator 1 MO: 1012 EX C3 10112 rev-1 LSI-11 12 bit ADC, 16 single ended or 8 double ended channels 2 1616 / 32 HCO LSI-11 16 channel High Current latched outputs 4 1632TTL D4-10035 Rev-2 LSI-11 32 I/O lines, 8 latched outputs.DRV11 compatible 3 1616CCI C4-10064 Rev-2 LSI-11 16 contact closure inputs, debounced and latched 1 1604 POC C3-10198 Rev-1 Misc. Boards Quantity Description 1 MDA / ICRO Development Associates MXV21 LSI-11 Dual Density RX02 Compatible controller 1 Babbl-Pac MBB-11A LSI-11 46K Bubble Memory Board (needs MBC-11 Controller) 1 Southern Systems Inc. PDP Line Printer controller assy No: 9060 rev-B 1 Kennedy Co. Ramp Generator 5733 Part of a Kennedy Magnetic Tape Drive I think 1 Texas Instruments Remote Device control Bd# 973900 1 ? AYMV MIC-1-1 is only thing written on board 1 Computer Technology DMA-L11 LSI-11 16 bit DMA PIO Interface 1 Nortek AAM-11L LSI-11 Auto-answer/Auto-Dial low speed modem/serial interface 1 AKCX 76972300FPPGRX32 and 7692202 rev-A are only things written on board 1 PPDRX18RB / 54302906B 2 Applicon Extender short PL-31370-001 --===============3927050914704444305==-- From kgober@gmail.com Thu Jan 5 01:24:49 2023 From: Kenneth Gober To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2023 20:24:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <77511893-b967-7349-2bb0-a6d0f7af2905@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5764676634339555082==" --===============5764676634339555082== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are some printers out there with ASCII 63 selectable via a DIP switch. For example a Teletype Model 43. Sorry, I don't happen to know what other printers might also have this feature. -ken On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 4:00 AM ben via cctalk wrote: > How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep > the ← and ↑ 's > > and not printing _ and ^ ? > > Ben. > > > > > > --===============5764676634339555082==-- From dave@661.org Fri Jan 6 06:47:13 2023 From: David Griffith To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] loading vt220 fonts Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 06:41:07 +0000 Message-ID: <471630d1-818-d87-2ea7-e78d603987f9@661.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0733173862251530778==" --===============0733173862251530778== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm trying to figure out how to created and load a "soft character set" into a vt220 terminal. These documents: https://vt100.net/shuford/terminal/dec_vt220_codes.txt, and https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECDLD.html, seem to talk about how to do it, but I don't follow this well. I'm guessing the fonts are made up of escape sequences. Then I guess they are loaded by simply printing them to the terminal. If that's the case, where are the examples of such sequences? Playing around with vttest, there's an option to "Test Soft Character Sets" in the "VT220 Tests" menu. But I get the error message "You did not specify a font-file with the -f option". Where can I find examples of that file? Putting these together, I'm guessing what vttest wants is a file containing sequences described in those two documents. So, where do I go from here? -- David Griffith dave(a)661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? --===============0733173862251530778==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Jan 6 07:28:46 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 07:28:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <471630d1-818-d87-2ea7-e78d603987f9@661.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0520784148698383677==" --===============0520784148698383677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You want to look at this manual.=20 https://vt100.net/docs/vt220-rm Vt100 doesn't support soft char sets but vt220 on does. Wayne > On Jan 5, 2023, at 10:46 PM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > I'm trying to figure out how to created and load a "soft character set" int= o a vt220 terminal. These documents: https://vt100.net/shuford/terminal/dec_= vt220_codes.txt, and https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECDLD.html, seem to tal= k about how to do it, but I don't follow this well. I'm guessing the fonts a= re made up of escape sequences. Then I guess they are loaded by simply print= ing them to the terminal. If that's the case, where are the examples of such= sequences? >=20 > Playing around with vttest, there's an option to "Test Soft Character Sets"= in the "VT220 Tests" menu. But I get the error message "You did not specify= a font-file with the -f option". Where can I find examples of that file? >=20 > Putting these together, I'm guessing what vttest wants is a file containing= sequences described in those two documents. So, where do I go from here? >=20 >=20 > --=20 > David Griffith > dave(a)661.org >=20 > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? --===============0520784148698383677==-- From mark@wickensonline.co.uk Fri Jan 6 08:59:04 2023 From: Mark Wickens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 08:58:23 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218116E6142581127C94331EE4FB9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0568100791140082591==" --===============0568100791140082591== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See here: https://vt100.net/dec/vt320/fonts You simply type the files from the command prompt and the escape sequences in the file tell the terminal to load the font data rather than display it on the screen. Mark. On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 at 07:28, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > You want to look at this manual. > https://vt100.net/docs/vt220-rm > Vt100 doesn't support soft char sets but vt220 on does. > > > Wayne > > > > On Jan 5, 2023, at 10:46 PM, David Griffith via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > I'm trying to figure out how to created and load a "soft character set" > into a vt220 terminal. These documents: > https://vt100.net/shuford/terminal/dec_vt220_codes.txt, and > https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECDLD.html, seem to talk about how to do > it, but I don't follow this well. I'm guessing the fonts are made up of > escape sequences. Then I guess they are loaded by simply printing them to > the terminal. If that's the case, where are the examples of such sequences? > > > > Playing around with vttest, there's an option to "Test Soft Character > Sets" in the "VT220 Tests" menu. But I get the error message "You did not > specify a font-file with the -f option". Where can I find examples of that > file? > > > > Putting these together, I'm guessing what vttest wants is a file > containing sequences described in those two documents. So, where do I go > from here? > > > > > > -- > > David Griffith > > dave(a)661.org > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > -- M0NOM/P ADIF Processor --===============0568100791140082591==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri Jan 6 10:00:30 2023 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 09:34:14 +0000 Message-ID: <7wtu14f1m1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <471630d1-818-d87-2ea7-e78d603987f9@661.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1600305706237067622==" --===============1600305706237067622== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Griffith wrote: > I'm trying to figure out how to created and load a "soft character > set" into a vt220 terminal. I have successfully done that with a real VT220. Here are some .txt files with samples. They upload a custom font and arrange characters on screen to display a picture. The Emacs Lisp code does the conversion. https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/sixel --===============1600305706237067622==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 6 14:15:07 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 09:14:07 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218116E6142581127C94331EE4FB9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3832821129141681925==" --===============3832821129141681925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 6, 2023, at 2:28 AM, Wayne S via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > You want to look at this manual.=20 > https://vt100.net/docs/vt220-rm > Vt100 doesn't support soft char sets but vt220 on does. Or here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-SM070-00_DEC_STD_070_Video= _Systems_Reference_Manual_Dec91.pdf which is the= DEC internal standard for VT200 and later series terminals, as a common arch= itecture for input and output encodings. I used that to implement VT220 emul= ation on a Pro; as with various other DEC standards, the document is of such = high quality that if you do what it says, things just work. (That, unfortuna= tely, is not the standard of quality for most standards in other parts of the= industry.) paul --===============3832821129141681925==-- From silvercreekvalley@yahoo.com Fri Jan 6 16:09:37 2023 From: silvercreekvalley@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC/HP computers from deceased collector (nr Andover UK) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 16:09:13 +0000 Message-ID: <167302135363.1586.451484184645366982@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <189307a0-3db4-97ed-adb5-eea43b6188b2@crystalhobs.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3825673273947280804==" --===============3825673273947280804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris, I'm fairly local and would be interested. Could you PM me ? Thanks. Ian --===============3825673273947280804==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jan 6 16:42:11 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 09:40:11 -0700 Message-ID: <1351fa22-7641-9649-2611-b0f284c9e60d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: <7wtu14f1m1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4128975228453552574==" --===============4128975228453552574== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/6/23 2:34 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > I have successfully done that with a real VT220. Here are some .txt > files with samples. They upload a custom font and arrange characters on > screen to display a picture. The Emacs Lisp code does the conversion. > > https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/sixel The naming of the git repository confused me a bit. I needed more coffee and time to realize that this is more about soft fonts (the thread subject) than it is about Sixel graphics. Unfortunately the version of XTerm that I'm using apparently doesn't support soft fonts. So I don't get to see the pictures. Aside: Would you please take a picture of some of the output from the samples on a VT220 or other soft font supporting terminal (emulator) so those of us under equipped can enjoy them too? -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============4128975228453552574==-- From lars@nocrew.org Fri Jan 6 18:40:22 2023 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 18:39:55 +0000 Message-ID: <7wpmbrfqx0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <1351fa22-7641-9649-2611-b0f284c9e60d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6245849860918886905==" --===============6245849860918886905== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant Taylor wrote: >> https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/sixel > The naming of the git repository confused me a bit. I needed more > coffee and time to realize that this is more about soft fonts (the > thread subject) than it is about Sixel graphics. It started with an idea about sixel graphics, but I repurposed it. VT220 (and followups) use sixels for soft fonts. > Aside: Would you please take a picture of some of the output from the > samples on a VT220 or other soft font supporting terminal (emulator) > so those of us under equipped can enjoy them too? I'm not aware of any terminal emulator with such support. I don't have my terminal available right now, but here's a photo I took: https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1187649036368658432 But apparently you saw that already! --===============6245849860918886905==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 7 03:26:42 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 20:24:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7wpmbrfqx0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7097094387219663703==" --===============7097094387219663703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/6/23 11:39 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > It started with an idea about sixel graphics, but I repurposed it. Ah. That makes sense. > VT220 (and followups) use sixels for soft fonts. Interesting. I've done some with Sixel, more than most, less than some, but my XTerm, which does support Sixel, didn't do anything with your samples except for the one Sixel file. I'm not that surprised that soft fonts are (re)using Sixel. That sort of makes sense. I suspect that means that XTerm could support soft fonts if some minor changes were made to re-use it's existing Sixel support. > I'm not aware of any terminal emulator with such support. ACK > I don't have my terminal available right now, but here's a photo I > took: https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1187649036368658432 Thank you for that picture. > But apparently you saw that already! Nope. But I have now. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============7097094387219663703==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 7 05:05:45 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB: IBM 700/c Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 05:05:17 +0000 Message-ID: <862668995.6970938.1673067917365@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <862668995.6970938.1673067917365.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0744771230447479005==" --===============0744771230447479005== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable preferably working. Or known screen issues but otherwise working. the mono version intrigues me (model 700). But I need a color unit to test ou= t all these screens I have sitting here. Now if anyone should need a NOS screen for a 700c, email me directly. No flim= flam on everyone's screen. --===============0744771230447479005==-- From lars@nocrew.org Sat Jan 7 08:05:12 2023 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 08:04:44 +0000 Message-ID: <7wlemeg483.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1643202660944648414==" --===============1643202660944648414== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant Taylor wrote: > I'm not that surprised that soft fonts are (re)using Sixel. Maybe the other way around. I don't really know what the timeline was, but it seems to me maybe soft fonts came first, with the VT220. The VT240 had sixel graphics, right? But I'm guessing it came later. As would the VT340. > I suspect that means that XTerm could support soft fonts if some minor > changes were made to re-use it's existing Sixel support. Probably. I had the good fortune to meet the person who first added sixel graphics to XTerm, and he mentioned it is on his to-do list. It would also be interesting to make a faithful VT220 emulator that runs the original ROMs. >> But apparently you saw that already! > Nope. But I have now. :-) Oh, isn't this you? https://twitter.com/DrScriptt/status/1187958760901414913 --===============1643202660944648414==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sat Jan 7 14:35:06 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 07:34:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7wlemeg483.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8672668966691677313==" --===============8672668966691677313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jan 7, 2023, 1:04 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Grant Taylor wrote: > > I'm not that surprised that soft fonts are (re)using Sixel. > > Maybe the other way around. I don't really know what the timeline was, > but it seems to me maybe soft fonts came first, with the VT220. The > VT240 had sixel graphics, right? But I'm guessing it came later. As > would the VT340. > Vt240 had graphics. But the LA50 also had sixel graphics, as did the vt125. Regis graphics was built on sixels :) Warner > I suspect that means that XTerm could support soft fonts if some minor > > changes were made to re-use it's existing Sixel support. > > Probably. I had the good fortune to meet the person who first added > sixel graphics to XTerm, and he mentioned it is on his to-do list. > > It would also be interesting to make a faithful VT220 emulator that runs > the original ROMs. > > >> But apparently you saw that already! > > Nope. But I have now. :-) > > Oh, isn't this you? > https://twitter.com/DrScriptt/status/1187958760901414913 > --===============8672668966691677313==-- From wrm@dW.co.za Sat Jan 7 17:56:42 2023 From: Wouter de Waal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 19:49:21 +0200 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20230107194613.052dbad0@mail.dW.co.za> In-Reply-To: <167225040820.1602.68735173111446306@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4451388591144762421==" --===============4451388591144762421== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I get the digest so I lag. >From: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com > >It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in >Radio Electronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking >about? It would be a fun prokect. Come on over to "List: " there are people still running those. Peter Stark passed away September last year. There's also Ingo Cyliax' 68030 box, also PC form-factor and ISA. W --===============4451388591144762421==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 7 18:15:51 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 11:13:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7wlemeg483.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7785455347211212726==" --===============7785455347211212726== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/7/23 1:04 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > Maybe the other way around. I don't really know what the timeline > was, but it seems to me maybe soft fonts came first, with the VT220. > The VT240 had sixel graphics, right? But I'm guessing it came later. > As would the VT340. ACK > Probably. I had the good fortune to meet the person who first added > sixel graphics to XTerm, and he mentioned it is on his to-do list. Nice! > It would also be interesting to make a faithful VT220 emulator that > runs the original ROMs. Something to look into. > Oh, isn't this you? > https://twitter.com/DrScriptt/status/1187958760901414913 Yes, that's me. I took your statement to be that I knew / had seen your bird soft font shape. I had not. I have not done anything with soft fonts. Yes, I have done more than the average bear with Sixel and ReGIS. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============7785455347211212726==-- From paul@frixxon.co.uk Sat Jan 7 18:37:54 2023 From: Paul Flo Williams To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: loading vt220 fonts Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 18:19:46 +0000 Message-ID: <20230107181946.6a6aaa09@chopoc.localdomain> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7666511472659115775==" --===============7666511472659115775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 07:34:26 -0700 Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Vt240 had graphics. But the LA50 also had sixel graphics, as did the > vt125. Regis graphics was built on sixels :) ReGIS graphics is a vector language, not sixel-based. --===============7666511472659115775==-- From g@kurico.com Sat Jan 7 19:12:44 2023 From: George Currie To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Downsizing "feeler" Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 19:02:07 +0000 Message-ID: <5fc2667c-958a-48e5-bd70-69ad20a88610@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4619435744701538801==" --===============4619435744701538801== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings all, it's "that time", the time I've finally accepted that I no lon= ger have the time/energy/space to devote to this collection/restoration hobby= that I've been able to enjoy for several decades now.During this time, I've = managed to amass a pretty sizeable amount of hardware, software, manuals, etc= . We're talking half a garage, part of a large shed and a storage rental's wo= rth of stuff. I need to go through and hit some highlights, but there are thi= ngs from rack mount PDP-10's, an SGI (Challenge XL rack, Indy's), tons of old= Macs (original, 512, original, Portable, etc), Lisa, Apple II, Commodore, TR= S80, Grid, HERO robots, DG Aviion, HP PA-RISC, MIPS system, early luggables (= e.g. Zenith), boxes of ISA cards, etc, etc, etc. A good 20ft uhaul trucks wor= th of stuff.There is no way I can piece meal stuff, so I'd be looking for som= eone, or an org like a museum, who is willing to take the whole enchilada.Thi= s is an early feeler before I start doing actual inventory to see if=C2=A0a) = is anyone interested in/capable of dealing with a large collectionb) is anyon= e aware of someone, or a museum, that may be interestedI know I'm a bit light= on the details, and we all know where the devil lives. But this is the first= step.The collection is located in Central Texas.TIA for any interest, leads,= pointers, sympathy, ridicule, etc.George --===============4619435744701538801==-- From skynet@wans.net Sat Jan 7 19:50:38 2023 From: STAN IRWIN To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Downsizing "feeler" Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 19:50:11 +0000 Message-ID: <1469978937.192523.1673121011117@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5fc2667c-958a-48e5-bd70-69ad20a88610@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4008998713644822847==" --===============4008998713644822847== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a museum in San Antonio, SAMSAT, but I do not know their status. I = will see what I can find out about their museum piece (they seem focused on c= omputer education aspects. They may have shut down during the pandemic. Sounds like too much to add to my collection (mostly DEC Digital) all at once! Stan Irwin On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 01:12:11 PM CST, George Currie via cctalk= wrote: =20 =20 Greetings all, it's "that time", the time I've finally accepted that I no lo= nger have the time/energy/space to devote to this collection/restoration hobb= y that I've been able to enjoy for several decades now.During this time, I've= managed to amass a pretty sizeable amount of hardware, software, manuals, et= c. We're talking half a garage, part of a large shed and a storage rental's w= orth of stuff. I need to go through and hit some highlights, but there are th= ings from rack mount PDP-10's, an SGI (Challenge XL rack, Indy's), tons of ol= d Macs (original, 512, original, Portable, etc), Lisa, Apple II, Commodore, T= RS80, Grid, HERO robots, DG Aviion, HP PA-RISC, MIPS system, early luggables = (e.g. Zenith), boxes of ISA cards, etc, etc, etc. A good 20ft uhaul trucks wo= rth of stuff.There is no way I can piece meal stuff, so I'd be looking for so= meone, or an org like a museum, who is willing to take the whole enchilada.Th= is is an early feeler before I start doing actual inventory to see if=C2=A0a)= is anyone interested in/capable of dealing with a large collectionb) is anyo= ne aware of someone, or a museum, that may be interestedI know I'm a bit ligh= t on the details, and we all know where the devil lives. But this is the firs= t step.The collection is located in Central Texas.TIA for any interest, leads= , pointers, sympathy, ridicule, etc.George =20 --===============4008998713644822847==-- From doc@vaxen.net Sat Jan 7 20:38:56 2023 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Downsizing "feeler" Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 14:33:11 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5fc2667c-958a-48e5-bd70-69ad20a88610@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4171601394039500434==" --===============4171601394039500434== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/7/23 13:02, George Currie via cctalk wrote: > Greetings all, it's "that time", the time I've finally accepted that I > no longer have the time/energy/space to devote to this > collection/restoration hobby that I've been able to enjoy for several > decades now.During this time, I've managed to amass a pretty sizeable > amount of hardware, software, manuals, etc. We're talking half a garage, > part of a large shed and a storage rental's worth of stuff. I need to go > through and hit some highlights, but there are things from rack mount > PDP-10's, an SGI (Challenge XL rack, Indy's), tons of old Macs > (original, 512, original, Portable, etc), Lisa, Apple II, Commodore, > TRS80, Grid, HERO robots, DG Aviion, HP PA-RISC, MIPS system, early > luggables (e.g. Zenith), boxes of ISA cards, etc, etc, etc. A good 20ft > uhaul trucks worth of stuff.There is no way I can piece meal stuff, so > I'd be looking for someone, or an org like a museum, who is willing to > take the whole enchilada.This is an early feeler before I start doing > actual inventory to see if a) is anyone interested in/capable of dealing > with a large collectionb) is anyone aware of someone, or a museum, that > may be interestedI know I'm a bit light on the details, and we all know > where the devil lives. But this is the first step.The collection is > located in Central Texas.TIA for any interest, leads, pointers, > sympathy, ridicule, etc.George Are you looking to sell or donate? Doc --===============4171601394039500434==-- From spam@hell.org Sat Jan 7 20:41:34 2023 From: Mike Begley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Downsizing "feeler" Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 20:41:07 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5fc2667c-958a-48e5-bd70-69ad20a88610@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1973567705700132612==" --===============1973567705700132612== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A friend of a friend helped someone out a few years ago who was in a similar = situation, but with high-end audiophile stuff. Same general deal, tho - had = a collection build with love and detail over decades but for practical reason= s had to make it gone. The solution was to find someone also in the communit= y so he had enough knowledge and insight and connections, but was also younge= r, stronger and had the time & mental bandwidth to handle the distribution. Instead of trying to find one or a few buyers for the whole thing, or ebaying= it all out, they worked in the community to redistribute/sell it. They didn= 't make all the money they could have if they really tried, but they did good= enough. Not pennies on the dollar, but maybe dimes or quarters on the dolla= r? But more importantly, they got the satisfaction of knowing that the collectio= n was being seeded out to other audiophiles in the area, and that collections= were being filled out, or in some cases collections started by new people en= tering the hobby. And that the stuff would be put to use and loved and remem= bered, as opposed to just getting anonymously sold off, landfilled, or stuck = in a museum's massive warehouse, like the Ark of the Covenant, never to be se= en again (I've been in the basement of Seattle's LCM; you wouldn't believe wh= at's down there!). Anyway, if you could find someone local who has the time and interest to real= ly go through your collection, identify people/organizations who would really= use the equipment and handling distribution & shipping, that might really ta= ke the edge off divesting yourself of it. From what you listed, some of it a= re true museum pieces, while others are more commodity items that still are a= ppreciated by community members. Both ends of the spectrum are worth finding= new owners for, but they have very different strategies for doing so. (I'd do it in a heartbeat if I were anywhere nearby! But Seattle is just a s= midge too far to drive!) Regardless, best luck in downsizing your collection! Looking forwards to see= ing a list of items available! -mike -----Original Message----- From: George Currie via cctalk =20 Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2023 11:02 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: George Currie Subject: [cctalk] Downsizing "feeler" Greetings all, it's "that time", the time I've finally accepted that I no lon= ger have the time/energy/space to devote to this collection/restoration hobby= that I've been able to enjoy for several decades now.During this time, I've = managed to amass a pretty sizeable amount of hardware, software, manuals, etc= . We're talking half a garage, part of a large shed and a storage rental's wo= rth of stuff. I need to go through and hit some highlights, but there are thi= ngs from rack mount PDP-10's, an SGI (Challenge XL rack, Indy's), tons of old= Macs (original, 512, original, Portable, etc), Lisa, Apple II, Commodore, TR= S80, Grid, HERO robots, DG Aviion, HP PA-RISC, MIPS system, early luggables (= e.g. Zenith), boxes of ISA cards, etc, etc, etc. A good 20ft uhaul trucks wor= th of stuff.There is no way I can piece meal stuff, so I'd be looking for som= eone, or an org like a museum, who is willing to take the whole enchilada.Thi= s is an early feeler before I start doing actual inventory to see if=C2=A0a) = is anyone interested in/capable of dealing with a large collectionb) is anyon= e aware of someone, or a museum, that may be interestedI know I'm a bit light= on the details, and we all know where the devil lives. But this is the first= step.The collection is located in Central Texas.TIA for any interest, leads,= pointers, sympathy, ridicule, etc.George --===============1973567705700132612==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Sat Jan 7 20:59:55 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Downsizing "feeler" Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 12:59:20 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5fc2667c-958a-48e5-bd70-69ad20a88610@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3768360124988405403==" --===============3768360124988405403== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jan 7, 2023, 11:12 AM George Currie via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: I need to go through and hit some highlights, but there are things from rack mount PDP-10's ---------- Did you really mean PDP-10 instead of PDP-11? --===============3768360124988405403==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sat Jan 7 21:02:33 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Downsizing "feeler" Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 14:02:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0772987679885328703==" --===============0772987679885328703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 1:59 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 7, 2023, 11:12 AM George Currie via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I need to go through and hit some highlights, but there are things from > rack mount PDP-10's > > ---------- > > Did you really mean PDP-10 instead of PDP-11? > That caught my eye too... There aren't too many of them working or nearly working around... Warner --===============0772987679885328703==-- From markarmbrennan@gmail.com Sat Jan 7 22:23:09 2023 From: Mark Brennan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC/HP computers from deceased collector (nr Andover UK) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 22:22:32 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <189307a0-3db4-97ed-adb5-eea43b6188b2@crystalhobs.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8051313013408925844==" --===============8051313013408925844== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris, Would you know if there were any DEC/HP brochure or product guides as I would be interested in adding them to our online collection Kind regards Mark On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 12:18 PM Chris Bryant via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Through a mutual friend I've been shown a collection of computers: > > MicroVAX 3400 > - the module complement is KA640-AA/MS650-AA, MS650-AA, CXY08-M, TQK70 > (with a TK70 drive), M9060-YA. In a floor-standing enclosure with "BA213 > CPU Mod" on the label, and Model 640QS-B3 > > Alphastation 200 4/233 - there are three of these > Compaq AlphaServer DS10 > Vaxstation 3100 > > also > > HP Visualise C3000 - a pair > > The widow believes they were working when last used. They are available > free to a good home/modest donation. Photos etc available. > > Chris > --===============8051313013408925844==-- From paul@frixxon.co.uk Sat Jan 7 23:33:10 2023 From: Paul Flo Williams To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC/HP computers from deceased collector (nr Andover UK) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 22:46:05 +0000 Message-ID: <20230107224605.606078eb@chopoc.localdomain> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5053379157052738205==" --===============5053379157052738205== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 22:22:32 +0000 Mark Brennan via cctalk wrote: > Hi Chris, > Would you know if there were any DEC/HP brochure or product guides as > I would be interested in adding them to our online collection > Kind regards > Mark Where is this online collection, please? Paul. --===============5053379157052738205==-- From markarmbrennan@gmail.com Sat Jan 7 23:40:59 2023 From: Mark Brennan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC/HP computers from deceased collector (nr Andover UK) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 23:40:23 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230107224605.606078eb@chopoc.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2314531956316087590==" --===============2314531956316087590== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Paul, We have posted over 9000 items online at the following URL: https://www.1000bit.it/ad/bro/brochures.asp regards Mark On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 11:32 PM Paul Flo Williams via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 22:22:32 +0000 > Mark Brennan via cctalk wrote: > > > Hi Chris, > > Would you know if there were any DEC/HP brochure or product guides as > > I would be interested in adding them to our online collection > > Kind regards > > Mark > > Where is this online collection, please? > > Paul. > --===============2314531956316087590==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Sun Jan 8 00:52:16 2023 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 00:51:47 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5483921876580786451==" --===============5483921876580786451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone I=E2=80=99m a young collector (18) of 60s and 70s minicomputer= s and micros. I have been restoring a PDP-8L and would love to find ether a D= iablo series 30 or Dec RK03 removable cartridge drive to go with this system.= I am in the uk South Yorkshire to be precise and would love any leads anyone= could provide on where I could find one would very much appreciated. If nobo= dy know where one of these drives can be located any means of mass storage fo= r a pdp 8L and data general nova system will be appreciated since I want to m= ove my collection forward and have the systems set up with full period setups. Thanks very much in advance.=20 Jake --===============5483921876580786451==-- From skynet@wans.net Sun Jan 8 01:24:50 2023 From: STAN IRWIN To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Downsizing "feeler" Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 01:24:10 +0000 Message-ID: <1200089856.248132.1673141050745@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5fc2667c-958a-48e5-bd70-69ad20a88610@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3225050912752466628==" --===============3225050912752466628== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George - I have made contact with SAMSAT museum, and they interested in talking with y= ou about your collection. I have asked the gentleman there if I can give you his email address. In the = meantime, if you wish, you can fill out a contact form on the SAMSAT website: Contact | SAMSAT |=20 |=20 |=20 | | | | | |=20 | |=20 Contact | SAMSAT Contact SAMSAT or reserve the Geekbus. | | | That way you can communicate directly with him. I have no connection with the museum, but if I can be of further assistance, = please let me know. Stan On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 01:12:11 PM CST, George Currie via cctalk= wrote: =20 =20 Greetings all, it's "that time", the time I've finally accepted that I no lo= nger have the time/energy/space to devote to this collection/restoration hobb= y that I've been able to enjoy for several decades now.During this time, I've= managed to amass a pretty sizeable amount of hardware, software, manuals, et= c. We're talking half a garage, part of a large shed and a storage rental's w= orth of stuff. I need to go through and hit some highlights, but there are th= ings from rack mount PDP-10's, an SGI (Challenge XL rack, Indy's), tons of ol= d Macs (original, 512, original, Portable, etc), Lisa, Apple II, Commodore, T= RS80, Grid, HERO robots, DG Aviion, HP PA-RISC, MIPS system, early luggables = (e.g. Zenith), boxes of ISA cards, etc, etc, etc. A good 20ft uhaul trucks wo= rth of stuff.There is no way I can piece meal stuff, so I'd be looking for so= meone, or an org like a museum, who is willing to take the whole enchilada.Th= is is an early feeler before I start doing actual inventory to see if=C2=A0a)= is anyone interested in/capable of dealing with a large collectionb) is anyo= ne aware of someone, or a museum, that may be interestedI know I'm a bit ligh= t on the details, and we all know where the devil lives. But this is the firs= t step.The collection is located in Central Texas.TIA for any interest, leads= , pointers, sympathy, ridicule, etc.George =20 --===============3225050912752466628==-- From skynet@wans.net Sun Jan 8 01:42:54 2023 From: STAN IRWIN To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Downsizing "feeler" Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 01:42:22 +0000 Message-ID: <430304885.6930094.1673142142030@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5fc2667c-958a-48e5-bd70-69ad20a88610@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6465468124262009470==" --===============6465468124262009470== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George -=20 Looks like the website information did not make it in my last email. Sorry! Try the web: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 samsat.org/contact They have a contact email page there. Best Regards - Stan On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 01:12:11 PM CST, George Currie via cctalk= wrote: =20 =20 Greetings all, it's "that time", the time I've finally accepted that I no lo= nger have the time/energy/space to devote to this collection/restoration hobb= y that I've been able to enjoy for several decades now.During this time, I've= managed to amass a pretty sizeable amount of hardware, software, manuals, et= c. We're talking half a garage, part of a large shed and a storage rental's w= orth of stuff. I need to go through and hit some highlights, but there are th= ings from rack mount PDP-10's, an SGI (Challenge XL rack, Indy's), tons of ol= d Macs (original, 512, original, Portable, etc), Lisa, Apple II, Commodore, T= RS80, Grid, HERO robots, DG Aviion, HP PA-RISC, MIPS system, early luggables = (e.g. Zenith), boxes of ISA cards, etc, etc, etc. A good 20ft uhaul trucks wo= rth of stuff.There is no way I can piece meal stuff, so I'd be looking for so= meone, or an org like a museum, who is willing to take the whole enchilada.Th= is is an early feeler before I start doing actual inventory to see if=C2=A0a)= is anyone interested in/capable of dealing with a large collectionb) is anyo= ne aware of someone, or a museum, that may be interestedI know I'm a bit ligh= t on the details, and we all know where the devil lives. But this is the firs= t step.The collection is located in Central Texas.TIA for any interest, leads= , pointers, sympathy, ridicule, etc.George =20 --===============6465468124262009470==-- From skynet@wans.net Sun Jan 8 02:23:10 2023 From: STAN IRWIN To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Downsizing "feeler" Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 02:22:41 +0000 Message-ID: <890550122.6936923.1673144561491@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5fc2667c-958a-48e5-bd70-69ad20a88610@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3972123100668123394==" --===============3972123100668123394== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George: Contact at SAMSAT Museum is Mr. David Monroe=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 david.monroe(a= )samsat.org If I can be of further assistance please let me know. Best Wishes - Stan Irwin On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 01:12:11 PM CST, George Currie via cctalk= wrote: =20 =20 Greetings all, it's "that time", the time I've finally accepted that I no lo= nger have the time/energy/space to devote to this collection/restoration hobb= y that I've been able to enjoy for several decades now.During this time, I've= managed to amass a pretty sizeable amount of hardware, software, manuals, et= c. We're talking half a garage, part of a large shed and a storage rental's w= orth of stuff. I need to go through and hit some highlights, but there are th= ings from rack mount PDP-10's, an SGI (Challenge XL rack, Indy's), tons of ol= d Macs (original, 512, original, Portable, etc), Lisa, Apple II, Commodore, T= RS80, Grid, HERO robots, DG Aviion, HP PA-RISC, MIPS system, early luggables = (e.g. Zenith), boxes of ISA cards, etc, etc, etc. A good 20ft uhaul trucks wo= rth of stuff.There is no way I can piece meal stuff, so I'd be looking for so= meone, or an org like a museum, who is willing to take the whole enchilada.Th= is is an early feeler before I start doing actual inventory to see if=C2=A0a)= is anyone interested in/capable of dealing with a large collectionb) is anyo= ne aware of someone, or a museum, that may be interestedI know I'm a bit ligh= t on the details, and we all know where the devil lives. But this is the firs= t step.The collection is located in Central Texas.TIA for any interest, leads= , pointers, sympathy, ridicule, etc.George =20 --===============3972123100668123394==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sun Jan 8 03:57:26 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 21:56:17 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20230107194613.052dbad0@mail.dW.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0386498420091052367==" --===============0386498420091052367== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am very sorry to hear of the passing of Peter Stark.  He was a great teacher and program and friend.  He befriended me when I was in my late teens and early 20's when he was still teaching at SUNY. On 1/7/2023 11:49 AM, Wouter de Waal via cctalk wrote: > Hi all > > I get the digest so I lag. > >> From: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com >> >> It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in >> Radio Electronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking >> about? It would be a fun prokect. > > Come on over to "List: " there are people > still running those. > > Peter Stark passed away September last year. > > There's also Ingo Cyliax' 68030 box, also PC form-factor and ISA. > > W --===============0386498420091052367==-- From lx@crystalhobs.org.uk Sun Jan 8 09:38:09 2023 From: Chris Bryant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC/HP computers from deceased collector (nr Andover UK) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 09:37:39 +0000 Message-ID: <600b0ef9-aeb9-726b-63b5-bf818adbfa77@crystalhobs.org.uk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8793769105217265738==" --===============8793769105217265738== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark, When I visited, there wasn't any documentation in sight and I would have expected there to be a pile on the floor it it did exist. I will ask. There may be a pause in this as Covid is about in the area and I haven't heard from my mutual friend in a day or two Regards Chris On 07/01/2023 22:22, Mark Brennan via cctalk wrote: > Hi Chris, > Would you know if there were any DEC/HP brochure or product guides as I > would be interested in adding them to our online collection > Kind regards > Mark > > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 12:18 PM Chris Bryant via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Through a mutual friend I've been shown a collection of computers: >> >> MicroVAX 3400 >> - the module complement is KA640-AA/MS650-AA, MS650-AA, CXY08-M, TQK70 >> (with a TK70 drive), M9060-YA. In a floor-standing enclosure with "BA213 >> CPU Mod" on the label, and Model 640QS-B3 >> >> Alphastation 200 4/233 - there are three of these >> Compaq AlphaServer DS10 >> Vaxstation 3100 >> >> also >> >> HP Visualise C3000 - a pair >> >> The widow believes they were working when last used. They are available >> free to a good home/modest donation. Photos etc available. >> >> Chris >> --===============8793769105217265738==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Sun Jan 8 11:40:28 2023 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 12:34:12 +0100 Message-ID: <347a8071-7e06-fbf8-328f-438f46ccc981@greenmail.ch> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLO2P123MB39988958E0CC6F5CDCC09CC1A8F99=40LO2P123MB?= =?utf-8?q?3998=2EGBRP123=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6605554059452680034==" --===============6605554059452680034== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08.01.23 01:51, jake utley via cctalk wrote: > Hello everyone I=E2=80=99m a young collector (18) of 60s and 70s minicomput= ers and micros. I have been restoring a PDP-8L and would love to find ether a= Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 removable cartridge drive to go with this syste= m. Is it even possible to add a diskdrive to a PDP8/L ? My 1970 "Small computer = handbook" only mentions TU55/TC01 and DF32 as mass-storage options for the 8/= L. Both are essentially unobtainable. Maybe sell the 8/L and get yourself an 8/E or /F ? Much more flexible. > I am in the uk South Yorkshire to be precise and would love any leads any= one could provide on where I could find one would very much appreciated. If n= obody know where one of these drives can be located any means of mass storage= for a pdp 8L and data general nova system w Which Nova precisely ? As an aside to the list : I do have an 8/E & Diablo 44 combo for sale ate 5K = ( which is what I paid for it) Located in CH Jos --===============6605554059452680034==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Sun Jan 8 11:49:38 2023 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 11:49:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <347a8071-7e06-fbf8-328f-438f46ccc981@greenmail.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6957540234603679297==" --===============6957540234603679297== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The nova a 800/1200 series machine and thank you for mentioning about the 8L = drives. I=E2=80=99m hesitant to sell or trade it because it does kind of have= sentimental value as the first machine I got and especially since it has suc= h a interesting history (nuclear power plant in France). Since those drives f= or the 8 are so unobtainable I think I=E2=80=99ll just keep it as the basic s= ystem with a teletype and also so I=E2=80=99m not having to swap drives betwe= en systems every time I want to use it > On 8 Jan 2023, at 11:40, jos via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 08.01.23 01:51, jake utley via cctalk wrote: >> Hello everyone I=E2=80=99m a young collector (18) of 60s and 70s minicompu= ters and micros. I have been restoring a PDP-8L and would love to find ether = a Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 removable cartridge drive to go with this syst= em. >=20 > Is it even possible to add a diskdrive to a PDP8/L ? My 1970 "Small compute= r handbook" only mentions TU55/TC01 and DF32 as mass-storage options for the = 8/L. Both are essentially unobtainable. >=20 > Maybe sell the 8/L and get yourself an 8/E or /F ? Much more flexible. >=20 >> I am in the uk South Yorkshire to be precise and would love any leads any= one could provide on where I could find one would very much appreciated. If n= obody know where one of these drives can be located any means of mass storage= for a pdp 8L and data general nova system w >=20 > Which Nova precisely ? >=20 > As an aside to the list : I do have an 8/E & Diablo 44 combo for sale ate 5= K ( which is what I paid for it) Located in CH >=20 > Jos >=20 --===============6957540234603679297==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sun Jan 8 16:53:14 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 17:52:35 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8953509628094565394==" --===============8953509628094565394== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 22 Dec 2022 at 23:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > You've apparently never heard of Tony Duell: last I read he was running > > Windows 98 on an IBM PC/XT or something like that :) Linux on a heavily-upgraded PC-AT with a '386 board in it, I believe. > Tony, > are you around? He is, still posts occasionally, and I believe he has a more modern PC now. := -) > Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM Nope. 32-bit only. 386DX or later. I tried it and benchmarked it at the time of release. And it beat WfWg 3.11 by a significant margin, to everyone's amazement. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8953509628094565394==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sun Jan 8 16:55:17 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 17:54:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8195878754371526962==" --===============8195878754371526962== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 at 07:54, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Well, if you want to pedantic about it, you certainly could emulate a > 32-bit processor on any reasonably Turing-equivalent processor, given > sufficient memory. It might be incredibly slow, but you could do it. Noted Australian Mac hacker Dana Silbera -- "nanoraptor" on Twitter -- got Mac OS X to boot on a 68040 Mac this way. EXTREMELY slowly, in the PearPC PowerPC emulator, compiled on 680x0 Linux, IIRC. It took 2 days to show the desktop or something. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8195878754371526962==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sun Jan 8 17:02:17 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WTB: IBM 700/c Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 18:01:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <862668995.6970938.1673067917365@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4518172211434264107==" --===============4518172211434264107== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 at 06:05, skogkatt007--- via cctalk wrote: > > preferably working. Or known screen issues but otherwise working. > the mono version intrigues me (model 700). But I need a color unit to test = out all these screens I have sitting here. > Now if anyone should need a NOS screen for a 700c, email me directly. No fl= im flam on everyone's screen. The folks behind this site may help? https://www.701c.org/ --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4518172211434264107==-- From rich.cini@gmail.com Sun Jan 8 18:50:33 2023 From: Richard Cini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 18:49:24 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20230107194613.052dbad0@mail.dW.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6578260381321478625==" --===============6578260381321478625== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember it from when I subscribed. I just did a quick check and they ran t= he article in late-1987 and 1988. It would be a neat project for sure. I took= a quick look at the parts list and the only two things that jumped out at me= is that there is a delay line and a PAL; everything else still looked to be = available. Bitsavers has an archive of some good info on it (http://www.bitsa= vers.org/pdf/peripheralTechnology/). Rich --=20 Rich Cini=20 http://cini.classiccmp.org =20 http://altair32.classiccmp.org =20 =EF=BB=BFOn 1/7/23, 12:56 PM, "Wouter de Waal via cctalk" > wrote: Hi all I get the digest so I lag. >From: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com > >It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in=20 >Radio Electronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking=20 >about? It would be a fun prokect. Come on over to "List: >" there are people=20 still running those. Peter Stark passed away September last year. There's also Ingo Cyliax' 68030 box, also PC form-factor and ISA. W=20 --===============6578260381321478625==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sun Jan 8 18:50:59 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Downsizing "feeler" Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 00:34:49 +0000 Message-ID: <3bdfd31a-8d91-3b75-b3d1-e78e89141714@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <5fc2667c-958a-48e5-bd70-69ad20a88610@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0777394588169518563==" --===============0777394588169518563== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry to hear that George. I've been clearing out Bob's stuff for a few years now, what I found best was to identify the "commodity" stuff like pdp11's and separate those from the "priceless" stuff like all the Perqs and software. The commodity stuff just sell for whatever. There's a lot of it out there, some people take donations then sell them anyway so might as well. For the priceless stuff, find the right people and give it away. Things like a Dec20, old MASSBUS drives, etc. Find the people who will take care of it, won't just flip it, will help to bring it back and keep the memories alive. I did that and feel better about things by doing so. Then there's the "junk".... CZ On 1/7/2023 2:02 PM, George Currie via cctalk wrote: > Greetings all, it's "that time", the time I've finally accepted that I > no longer have the time/energy/space to devote to this > collection/restoration hobby that I've been able to enjoy for several > decades now.During this time, I've managed to amass a pretty sizeable > amount of hardware, software, manuals, etc. We're talking half a garage, > part of a large shed and a storage rental's worth of stuff. I need to go > through and hit some highlights, but there are things from rack mount > PDP-10's, an SGI (Challenge XL rack, Indy's), tons of old Macs > (original, 512, original, Portable, etc), Lisa, Apple II, Commodore, > TRS80, Grid, HERO robots, DG Aviion, HP PA-RISC, MIPS system, early > luggables (e.g. Zenith), boxes of ISA cards, etc, etc, etc. A good 20ft > uhaul trucks worth of stuff.There is no way I can piece meal stuff, so > I'd be looking for someone, or an org like a museum, who is willing to > take the whole enchilada.This is an early feeler before I start doing > actual inventory to see if a) is anyone interested in/capable of dealing > with a large collectionb) is anyone aware of someone, or a museum, that > may be interestedI know I'm a bit light on the details, and we all know > where the devil lives. But this is the first step.The collection is > located in Central Texas.TIA for any interest, leads, pointers, > sympathy, ridicule, etc.George --===============0777394588169518563==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sun Jan 8 18:51:19 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 20:00:31 -0500 Message-ID: <9251dc05-27e9-f756-367c-e1e2677eab49@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLO2P123MB39988958E0CC6F5CDCC09CC1A8F99=40LO2P123MB?= =?utf-8?q?3998=2EGBRP123=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1722592104493276561==" --===============1722592104493276561== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That will be complex. I had an RK8 disk controller (the 6 foot cabinet=20 that was it) along with a pair of the RK03 disk drives and it was (a)=20 insane, (b) heavy beyond belief, and (c) finicky. It also required Data break which is not built into the stock pdp8/L.=20 You would need a BM08 box, and as I'm looking for one myself they will=20 be tough to get :-) You might be better off getting your 8/L working and trying things like=20 FOCAL on paper tape and other simple paper tape/serial based stuff.=20 Running OS/8 will require either a pdp8/I (with the extra memory, data=20 break, and helpful things like the EAE) or as I mentioned a BM08. Chris Z (Two pdp8/L's, both fully operational) On 1/7/2023 7:51 PM, jake utley via cctalk wrote: > Hello everyone I=E2=80=99m a young collector (18) of 60s and 70s minicomput= ers and micros. I have been restoring a PDP-8L and would love to find ether a= Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 removable cartridge drive to go with this syste= m. I am in the uk South Yorkshire to be precise and would love any leads anyo= ne could provide on where I could find one would very much appreciated. If no= body know where one of these drives can be located any means of mass storage = for a pdp 8L and data general nova system will be appreciated since I want to= move my collection forward and have the systems set up with full period setu= ps. >=20 > Thanks very much in advance. > Jake >=20 --===============1722592104493276561==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sun Jan 8 18:51:37 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 09:22:42 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <347a8071-7e06-fbf8-328f-438f46ccc981@greenmail.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7395914724745740594==" --===============7395914724745740594== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is it even possible to add a diskdrive to a PDP8/L ? My 1970 "Small > computer handbook" only mentions TU55/TC01 and DF32 as mass-storage > options for the 8/L. Both are essentially unobtainable. Well, yes-ish. I thought about it last night and realized that the pdp8/L *does* have a data break option that can go in the CPU box, but it is for only a single device. For more than one data break device you would need a BM08. That said, you're still running with only 4k of memory so anything above a DF32 is probably overkill. C --===============7395914724745740594==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Sun Jan 8 19:45:34 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:44:58 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <347a8071-7e06-fbf8-328f-438f46ccc981@greenmail.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8802023607746680627==" --===============8802023607746680627== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 8, 2023 at 6:40 AM jos via cctalk wrote: > On 08.01.23 01:51, jake utley via cctalk wrote: > > Hello everyone I=E2=80=99m a young collector (18) of 60s and 70s minicomp= uters and micros. I have been restoring a PDP-8L and would love to find ether= a Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 removable cartridge drive to go with this sys= tem. > > Is it even possible to add a diskdrive to a PDP8/L ? My 1970 "Small compute= r handbook" only mentions TU55/TC01 and DF32 as mass-storage options for the = 8/L. Both are essentially unobtainable. Indeed. I have had a PDP-8/L since I was in High School (eons ago). I have never come up with mass storage for mine and it's long been a goal to be able to do more than paper tape programs on it. Dry so far. Posibus storage devices were, IME, less common than Negibus devices (which would then require a DW08 and by the time you bought all of that, why didn't you get a PDP-8-i in the first place? (especially since you were memory-limited on the -8/L) > Maybe sell the 8/L and get yourself an 8/E or /F ? Much more flexible. I do get wanting to max out an 8/L. It was my first and I'd love to get it doing more things, and it's really cool that you can easily see what's happening at the gate level (possible but less convenient with an Omnibus machine), but there's only so much you can do with _any_ 4K PDP-8, and memory expansion boxes for the 8/L may be rarer than Posibus storage devices. It's a lot easier to bring an Omnibus machine up to 32K and there are lots of vintage storage options. Recreating these things with modern components is always a possibility, of course, but I've only ever seen a couple of one-off devices ever come out (like a Posibus DF32D emulator implemented in TTL that happens to need a now-hard-to-find 128Kx16 NVRAM) Personally I'd love to see some Posibus devices get recreated but after this long, I'm totally willing to see if I could get SerialDisk working with an add-on serial port on an -8/L or unexpanded -8/i. My own (perpetual) goal is to run OS/8 on a pre-Omnibus machine. Haven't pulled all the resources together for that yet. -ethan --===============8802023607746680627==-- From jakeutley@outlook.com Sun Jan 8 19:51:10 2023 From: jake utley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 19:50:37 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4266470462058955826==" --===============4266470462058955826== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I got the 8L pretty cheap on eBay a few years back after it had been stripped= for parts so it=E2=80=99s been a long restoration project this is why I=E2= =80=99m so attached to it. Now that I=E2=80=99ve learnt that for the L I won= =E2=80=99t be running anything other than paper tape I=E2=80=99m ok with that= as I do like the limitations. I think I=E2=80=99ll stop the search to add ma= ss storage to the 8 and focus 100% on the data general systems which I prefer= over Dec as then I don=E2=80=99t have to deal with many many flip chip cards > On 8 Jan 2023, at 19:45, Ethan Dicks via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Sun, Jan 8, 2023 at 6:40 AM jos via cctalk wrote: >>> On 08.01.23 01:51, jake utley via cctalk wrote: >>> Hello everyone I=E2=80=99m a young collector (18) of 60s and 70s minicomp= uters and micros. I have been restoring a PDP-8L and would love to find ether= a Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 removable cartridge drive to go with this sys= tem. >>=20 >> Is it even possible to add a diskdrive to a PDP8/L ? My 1970 "Small comput= er handbook" only mentions TU55/TC01 and DF32 as mass-storage options for the= 8/L. Both are essentially unobtainable. >=20 > Indeed. I have had a PDP-8/L since I was in High School (eons ago). > I have never come up with mass storage for mine and it's long been a > goal to be able to do more than paper tape programs on it. Dry so > far. >=20 > Posibus storage devices were, IME, less common than Negibus devices > (which would then require a DW08 and by the time you bought all of > that, why didn't you get a PDP-8-i in the first place? (especially > since you were memory-limited on the -8/L) >=20 >> Maybe sell the 8/L and get yourself an 8/E or /F ? Much more flexible. >=20 > I do get wanting to max out an 8/L. It was my first and I'd love to > get it doing more things, and it's really cool that you can easily see > what's happening at the gate level (possible but less convenient with > an Omnibus machine), but there's only so much you can do with _any_ 4K > PDP-8, and memory expansion boxes for the 8/L may be rarer than > Posibus storage devices. It's a lot easier to bring an Omnibus > machine up to 32K and there are lots of vintage storage options. >=20 > Recreating these things with modern components is always a > possibility, of course, but I've only ever seen a couple of one-off > devices ever come out (like a Posibus DF32D emulator implemented in > TTL that happens to need a now-hard-to-find 128Kx16 NVRAM) >=20 > Personally I'd love to see some Posibus devices get recreated but > after this long, I'm totally willing to see if I could get SerialDisk > working with an add-on serial port on an -8/L or unexpanded -8/i. >=20 > My own (perpetual) goal is to run OS/8 on a pre-Omnibus machine. > Haven't pulled all the resources together for that yet. >=20 > -ethan --===============4266470462058955826==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Sun Jan 8 21:05:36 2023 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 13:05:08 -0800 Message-ID: <15379622-fa34-2868-5421-1a44ca15a24b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <347a8071-7e06-fbf8-328f-438f46ccc981@greenmail.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1179451711521475297==" --===============1179451711521475297== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/8/2023 3:34 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > Is it even possible to add a diskdrive to a PDP8/L ? My 1970 "Small > computer handbook" only mentions TU55/TC01 and DF32 as mass-storage > options for the 8/L. Both are essentially unobtainable. As others have suggested, a "period correct" 8/L solution with mass storage is difficult. Your best bet is probably a BM08 for the core memory expansion and a TC08 (you'd want Posibus, not the Negibus TC01) to control a DECtape drive. However, a "pure vintage" solution that is willing to mix in later DEC gear opens the door for a DW8E and that should allow for the MMU, more RAM and an RX8E floppy controller. If you're slightly more flexible, there are also modern emulations that either exist or shouldn't be hard to implement to expand the 8/L. (Some of them are on my lengthy "to do" list, since I also have a couple of 8/L.) You'd need memory (and a memory controller) and then could use Serial Disk (or even Console Serial Disk, when that's ready), for example. Vince --===============1179451711521475297==-- From rankest_rappels0g@icloud.com Sun Jan 8 21:08:26 2023 From: rankest_rappels0g@icloud.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC/HP computers from deceased collector (nr Andover UK) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 21:08:01 +0000 Message-ID: <167321208109.1586.16178161634299275316@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <189307a0-3db4-97ed-adb5-eea43b6188b2@crystalhobs.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3469285096338466946==" --===============3469285096338466946== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would love a go at some fo these if no one of longer standing on this list = has shown interest (I only recently signed up).=20 Many thanks --===============3469285096338466946==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Sun Jan 8 21:26:01 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 16:25:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9251dc05-27e9-f756-367c-e1e2677eab49@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6537503709924730028==" --===============6537503709924730028== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Jan 8, 2023 at 1:50 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > That will be complex. I had an RK8 disk controller (the 6 foot cabinet > that was it) along with a pair of the RK03 disk drives and it was (a) > insane, (b) heavy beyond belief, and (c) finicky. I think I've only ever seen pictures. I know I haven't seen one up close. > It also required Data break which is not built into the stock pdp8/L. That's just a few common modules, fortunately. > You would need a BM08 box, and as I'm looking for one myself they will > be tough to get :-) Absolutely. Not a lot of benefit having storage without memory extension. > You might be better off getting your 8/L working and trying things like > FOCAL on paper tape and other simple paper tape/serial based stuff. > Running OS/8 will require either a pdp8/I (with the extra memory, data > break, and helpful things like the EAE) or as I mentioned a BM08. FOCAL is absolutely a good starting point for making a 4K PDP-8/L do _something_ interesting. I haven't ever tried doing assembly using the paper tape tools (it's several passes and uses quite a bit of tape) but I have assembled small programs by hand and toggled them directly into the front panel. Obviously that's no fun for anything over a few dozen instructions. -ethan --===============6537503709924730028==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 9 00:46:11 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 00:45:43 +0000 Message-ID: <502780614.7124221.1673225143321@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8062077437603084249==" --===============8062077437603084249== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And I seem to recall a Rich Cini that used to have an MPX-16. Wish there was= a list about that also ... On Sunday, January 8, 2023, 01:50:03 PM EST, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 I remember it from when I subscribed. I just did a quick check and they ran = the article in late-1987 and 1988. It would be a neat project for sure. I too= k a quick look at the parts list and the only two things that jumped out at m= e is that there is a delay line and a PAL; everything else still looked to be= available. Bitsavers has an archive of some good info on it (http://www.bits= avers.org/pdf/peripheralTechnology/). Rich --=20 Rich Cini=20 http://cini.classiccmp.org =20 http://altair32.classiccmp.org =20 =EF=BB=BFOn 1/7/23, 12:56 PM, "Wouter de Waal via cctalk" > wrote: Hi all I get the digest so I lag. >From: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com > >It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in=20 >Radio Electronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking=20 >about? It would be a fun prokect. Come on over to "List: >" there are people=20 still running those. Peter Stark passed away September last year. There's also Ingo Cyliax' 68030 box, also PC form-factor and ISA. W=20 =20 --===============8062077437603084249==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Mon Jan 9 01:30:04 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Reading Old Floppies Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 17:29:37 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0116468596639255674==" --===============0116468596639255674== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When reading old floppies, how often is it advisable to clean the drive? I m= anaged the first 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies no problem, I=E2=80=99m using a USB Fl= oppy Drive hooked up to my Mac Laptop, I was able to image them using =E2=80= =9CDisk Utility=E2=80=9D. The next two floppies have had errors. Though I t= hink I was able to successfully copy all the files off the one. Also, what is floppy drive cleaning fluid made of, and how well does it age? = I know I=E2=80=99ve got at least a couple cleaning floppies around here, but= they=E2=80=99re *OLD*. Zane --===============0116468596639255674==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 9 01:37:26 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 01:36:58 +0000 Message-ID: <1662099782.7355601.1673228218024@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9166003857936316564==" --===============9166003857936316564== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think people use alcohol to clean the ceramic heads. Not complicated, but = getting in there ... You could also think about vacuuming or blowing crap out of the mechanism bef= ore cleaning the heads. Disks give errors, duh. Whatever you use to image a disk, use it as a first a= ttempt, as that may be the ONLY chance to save the contents. People put a dis= k in the drive, do a directory scan, screw around some more. And then the dis= k is no longer readable. It happens. Just bang it with whatever program you g= ot before worrying what's on it. I've never imaged a disk in a usb drive I don't think, can't help you there. = I habe written dos images to external drives though. =20 --===============9166003857936316564==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Mon Jan 9 01:49:01 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 18:48:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7415359992859714530==" --===============7415359992859714530== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For 5.25" RX50 floppies, I imaged 400 of them before I needed to clean the drive... and even then I'm not sure it needed it... Warner On Sun, Jan 8, 2023, 6:29 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > When reading old floppies, how often is it advisable to clean the drive? > I managed the first 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies no problem, I=E2=80=99m using a U= SB Floppy Drive > hooked up to my Mac Laptop, I was able to image them using =E2=80=9CDisk Ut= ility=E2=80=9D. > The next two floppies have had errors. Though I think I was able to > successfully copy all the files off the one. > > Also, what is floppy drive cleaning fluid made of, and how well does it > age? I know I=E2=80=99ve got at least a couple cleaning floppies around he= re, but > they=E2=80=99re *OLD*. > > Zane > > > > --===============7415359992859714530==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Mon Jan 9 02:45:25 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 21:44:45 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4414998427560170108==" --===============4414998427560170108== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Jan 8, 2023 at 11:52 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM > > Nope. 32-bit only. 386DX or later. I tried it and benchmarked it at > the time of release. And it beat WfWg 3.11 by a significant margin, to > everyone's amazement. I have a memory of installing Windows 95 on a monochrome 386SX laptop w/4MB of RAM in August, 1995 at McMurdo because that's the equipment we had on hand when Win95 arrived on the continent. It was unpleasantly slow but it did run. Way better on a 486 w/8MB. -ethan --===============4414998427560170108==-- From doc@vaxen.net Mon Jan 9 03:42:21 2023 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 21:41:52 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0053821990462706364==" --===============0053821990462706364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/8/23 19:29, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > When reading old floppies, how often is it advisable to clean the drive? I= managed the first 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies no problem, I=E2=80=99m using a USB = Floppy Drive hooked up to my Mac Laptop, I was able to image them using =E2= =80=9CDisk Utility=E2=80=9D. The next two floppies have had errors. Though = I think I was able to successfully copy all the files off the one. >=20 > Also, what is floppy drive cleaning fluid made of, and how well does it age= ? I know I=E2=80=99ve got at least a couple cleaning floppies around here, b= ut they=E2=80=99re *OLD*. I avoid Disk Utility like the plague. dd works great, although MacOS's device naming is stupid. "diskutil=20 list" will show you what the floppy device is, and "sudo diskutil=20 unmountdisk diskX" will free it for imaging. If you can source a Blue Pill, though, you can handwire it to a=20 floppy drive and run the greaseweazle tools... https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki/Blue-Pill-Direct Good luck! Doc --===============0053821990462706364==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 9 05:21:31 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 21:20:54 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5226595289078750910==" --===============5226595289078750910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I'm archiving disks and begin to get unrecoverable errors, I do a head cleaning and, if the errors go away, it was a dirty head; but if they don't, something's wrong with the disk. Sellam On Sun, Jan 8, 2023 at 5:29 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > When reading old floppies, how often is it advisable to clean the drive? > I managed the first 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies no problem, I=E2=80=99m using a U= SB Floppy Drive > hooked up to my Mac Laptop, I was able to image them using =E2=80=9CDisk Ut= ility=E2=80=9D. > The next two floppies have had errors. Though I think I was able to > successfully copy all the files off the one. > > Also, what is floppy drive cleaning fluid made of, and how well does it > age? I know I=E2=80=99ve got at least a couple cleaning floppies around he= re, but > they=E2=80=99re *OLD*. > > Zane > > > > --===============5226595289078750910==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jan 9 05:23:55 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 22:21:54 -0700 Message-ID: <95d64214-29e6-178c-b0f8-eab55b6f6e54@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0761651507584985712==" --===============0761651507584985712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/8/23 8:41 PM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > I avoid Disk Utility like the plague. Doc, will you please elaborate on why you avoid the Disk Utility (.app)? -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============0761651507584985712==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Mon Jan 9 06:20:04 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 19:06:51 -0500 Message-ID: <63b2a769-3a74-c5a6-0080-7b07420dd66d@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4250872751130565641==" --===============4250872751130565641== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think I've only ever seen pictures. I know I haven't seen one up close. There is "close" and there is "this thing is going to tip over on me" close. It was pretty impressive: Amazing lights panel that would allow you to see what it was doing, what sector and track you were on, and all sorts of stuff. I wrote a few quick programs to copy the lower 4k of memory to a specific track, it was handy because I could then load up pretty much any diagnostic tape image I wanted in a second. Made a fair bit of noise spinning up, once running you could hear the disks seeking, quite loud. The write protect panel had a square lighted switch for each disk and a sector lockout that I think protected the top sectors of the disk from writing. One 6 foot rack would fit the panel, controller, one drive, and the power supply for the drive then the controller. Pretty hefty, a second drive was in the rack next to it above the pdp8/I and PC08 paper tape reader. It was a truck. I wonder how it's doing these days... C --===============4250872751130565641==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Mon Jan 9 06:20:25 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 21:44:01 -0500 Message-ID: <14ff9a83-d36f-d89a-639c-741e57e289b1@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1732919664657931339==" --===============1732919664657931339== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > When reading old floppies, how often is it advisable to clean the drive? I= managed the first 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies no problem, I=E2=80=99m using a USB = Floppy Drive hooked up to my Mac Laptop, I was able to image them using =E2= =80=9CDisk Utility=E2=80=9D. The next two floppies have had errors. Though = I think I was able to successfully copy all the files off the one. Depends. For RX01 (PDT) and RX02 drives I'll typically clean before=20 reading a new disk that has valuable info before reading it, and again=20 before using my "good" disks. If the disk is read and there's nothing on=20 the head then it goes into the "good" pile. For RX50's same basic thing. A bad RX50 floppy can contaminate the head=20 and make a mess of otherwise good disks, so I try to keep the new disks=20 and disks I use separate. > Also, what is floppy drive cleaning fluid made of, and how well does it age= ? I know I=E2=80=99ve got at least a couple cleaning floppies around here, b= ut they=E2=80=99re *OLD*. I think most are compatible with 95% isopropyl. Most drives seem to be=20 ok with this as well except for CDC 9762's where it seemed to dissolve=20 the glue that held the head to the arms. Ask me how I found that out. CZ --===============1732919664657931339==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 9 06:28:46 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 06:28:17 +0000 Message-ID: <1449687486.7179233.1673245697789@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <14ff9a83-d36f-d89a-639c-741e57e289b1@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6377474774735314965==" --===============6377474774735314965== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If alcohol isn't a good idea, white vinegar or dilute ammonia could also wor= k. Ammonia is the world's best peneyrant as far as I'm concerned. But to get = into deep crevaces and crannies it needs time. Sometimes 24 - 48 hours. It wi= ll remove somenpaint lickity split. =20 --===============6377474774735314965==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jan 9 07:49:57 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2023 23:48:52 -0800 Message-ID: <637f1ae0-e40d-5a19-f6c1-fe6fd59e7103@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1449687486.7179233.1673245697789@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7676969146798955077==" --===============7676969146798955077== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/8/23 22:28, Chris via cctalk wrote: > If alcohol isn't a good idea, white vinegar or dilute ammonia could also w= ork. Ammonia is the world's best peneyrant as far as I'm concerned. But to ge= t into deep crevaces and crannies it needs time. Sometimes 24 - 48 hours. It = will remove somenpaint lickity split. =20 The traditional stuff pre-Montreal Accords was usually=C2=A0 Freon TF or similar chloroflourocarbon with perhaps some isopropanol mixed in.=C2=A0 At least that's what my big bottle of Xerox floppy cleaning liquid claims.=C2=A0 I suspect that some type of ether may also be suitable.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I've larg= ely taken to cleaning tape heads with heptane--doesn't seem to bother plastics any. --Chuck --===============7676969146798955077==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Jan 9 12:29:17 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 13:28:33 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7287442029357239605==" --===============7287442029357239605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 9 Jan 2023 at 03:45, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I have a memory of installing Windows 95 on a monochrome 386SX laptop > w/4MB of RAM in August, 1995 at McMurdo because that's the equipment > we had on hand when Win95 arrived on the continent. It was > unpleasantly slow but it did run. > > Way better on a 486 w/8MB. Oh my word yes. But the surprising thing was that it did work, my careful benchmarking, using MS Office, Photoshop and some other real apps, automated with macros, showed that MS' optimization work had gone in the right places. WfWg 3.11 with 32-bit disk access and 32-bit file access had a fast disk subsystem, but it wasn't able to adjust cache sizes on the fly. You set min/max sizes and that was that. W95 could shrink them to next to nothing if it needed. Result: W95 started slower and felt slower on a very low-end machine, such as a 386 with 4MB, the min spec. WfWg 3.11 started quicker and was much more responsive. But put both through the same set of demanding exercises in real apps, doing a lot of work, generating documents, outputting info over OLE into other apps and things, and W95 ran the whole benchmark suite quicker. It _felt_ slower but it actually traded off responsive feel for doing big demanding jobs faster overall. In comparison, an OS that went the other way was BeOS, which was tuned to feel maximally responsive at all times... and for the most part it didn't _have_ big demanding apps that could be scripted into long heavy workloads, so BeOS felt much massively quicker on turn-of-the-century PCs. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7287442029357239605==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jan 9 14:12:34 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 09:12:01 -0500 Message-ID: <76555EFF-38DF-4A27-A0B0-BCA4645477AE@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <637f1ae0-e40d-5a19-f6c1-fe6fd59e7103@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0039687346746807405==" --===============0039687346746807405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 9, 2023, at 2:48 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 1/8/23 22:28, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> If alcohol isn't a good idea, white vinegar or dilute ammonia could also w= ork. Ammonia is the world's best peneyrant as far as I'm concerned. But to ge= t into deep crevaces and crannies it needs time. Sometimes 24 - 48 hours. It = will remove somenpaint lickity split. =20 > The traditional stuff pre-Montreal Accords was usually Freon TF or > similar chloroflourocarbon with perhaps some isopropanol mixed in. At > least that's what my big bottle of Xerox floppy cleaning liquid claims.=20 > I suspect that some type of ether may also be suitable. I've largely > taken to cleaning tape heads with heptane--doesn't seem to bother > plastics any. Yes, I had a can of that Freon cleaner, and it works great on tape heads -- s= o presumably floppy heads too since they have the same requirements. Back in college I once helped clean 1311 disk drive heads, after a hydraulic = system leak. That was done with isopropyl alcohol. High purity in that part= icular case since it was available at the chemistry department store room, bu= t I would expect ordinary store bought 90%+ would work fine. You'll want to = use some sort of lint free applicators. paul --===============0039687346746807405==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 14:12:56 2023 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 14:12:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <63b2a769-3a74-c5a6-0080-7b07420dd66d@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6175126570258432210==" --===============6175126570258432210== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If all you want is a mass storage, you can do what I did for my NC4000 comput= er. I took a controller board from an XT and a ST506 drive( only 5 Megs but how a= m I going to create that much myself. It is better than a floppy controller since it buffers a sector. The computer= can run as slow or fast as it wants because you just send it the commands an= d wait until it tells you that the sector is ready. You can then just read it= back, a byte at a time. There is no other special hardware to design, other = than possible buffers to handle data size. The XT controller is simple enough= to wire up to most any TTL level bus and all the tricky stuff is done for yo= u. My NC4000 was 16 bits and I needed to do byte operations. Since the processor= could do short signed constants, I used the high memory address at 0FFFF to = do a byte swap, rather than do shifts but shifts would be fine, I just wanted= to minimize the number of cycles. I also did a floppy, that same way but the NC4000 was fast enough to read the= status of the controller and transfer a byte at a time and keep up with the = data rate of a 360 drive. In fact I had to add some delay because it was too fast. I didn't do a DMA fo= r it. Dwight ________________________________ From: Chris Zach via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2023 4:06 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Chris Zach Subject: [cctalk] Re: Diablo series 30 or Dec RK03 > I think I've only ever seen pictures. I know I haven't seen one up close. There is "close" and there is "this thing is going to tip over on me" close. It was pretty impressive: Amazing lights panel that would allow you to see what it was doing, what sector and track you were on, and all sorts of stuff. I wrote a few quick programs to copy the lower 4k of memory to a specific track, it was handy because I could then load up pretty much any diagnostic tape image I wanted in a second. Made a fair bit of noise spinning up, once running you could hear the disks seeking, quite loud. The write protect panel had a square lighted switch for each disk and a sector lockout that I think protected the top sectors of the disk from writing. One 6 foot rack would fit the panel, controller, one drive, and the power supply for the drive then the controller. Pretty hefty, a second drive was in the rack next to it above the pdp8/I and PC08 paper tape reader. It was a truck. I wonder how it's doing these days... C --===============6175126570258432210==-- From doc@vaxen.net Mon Jan 9 16:02:52 2023 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 10:02:20 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <95d64214-29e6-178c-b0f8-eab55b6f6e54@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6224798391566373971==" --===============6224798391566373971== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/8/23 23:21, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/8/23 8:41 PM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: >> I avoid Disk Utility like the plague. > > Doc, will you please elaborate on why you avoid the Disk Utility (.app)? Short version is that the GUI Disk Utility hides too much of what it's doing AND, more to the point, makes assumptions by default. Yes, it's possible to override the default but after [holy crap!] 2 decades of using it I still have to fumble around. I much prefer the command-line "diskutil". It's the same tool, I guess, but the CLI demands explicit control. In almost every operation that writes to disk, if you leave out a parameter the operation doesn't happen. Bonus, you can get very detailed diagnostic info. Plus, you know... I'm still a little averse to pointy clicky. Doc --===============6224798391566373971==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Mon Jan 9 18:23:43 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 11:23:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8664723077022901500==" --===============8664723077022901500== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 8, 2023, 6:29 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > When reading old floppies, how often is it advisable to clean the drive? > I managed the first 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies no problem, I=E2=80=99m using a U= SB Floppy Drive > hooked up to my Mac Laptop, I was able to image them using =E2=80=9CDisk Ut= ility=E2=80=9D. > The next two floppies have had errors. Though I think I was able to > successfully copy all the files off the one. > > Also, what is floppy drive cleaning fluid made of, and how well does it > age? I know I=E2=80=99ve got at least a couple cleaning floppies around he= re, but > they=E2=80=99re *OLD*. > Also, a normal USB Floppy drive can only handle 1.44MB formatted floppies. 720k might work (but there is nothing in the standards to describe this) and oddball formats are right out. Warner > > > --===============8664723077022901500==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jan 9 19:12:42 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 11:12:11 -0800 Message-ID: <1a50b284-7652-d55e-7362-1740de15bc22@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4348745328028598236==" --===============4348745328028598236== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/9/23 10:23, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > Also, a normal USB Floppy drive can only handle 1.44MB formatted floppies. > 720k might work (but there is nothing in the standards to describe this) > and oddball formats are right out. > I've found that most 3.5" USB floppy drives also support the 1.23MB 8x1024 disks.  (e.g. legacy 3-mode drive equivalent). Probably not useful for most people, but noteworthy. --Chuck --===============4348745328028598236==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Mon Jan 9 19:19:58 2023 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 11:19:22 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3556540549695040307==" --===============3556540549695040307== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 10:23 AM Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jan 8, 2023, 6:29 PM Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: > > Also, a normal USB Floppy drive can only handle 1.44MB formatted floppies. > 720k might work (but there is nothing in the standards to describe this) > and oddball formats are right out. > > Warner > https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usbmass-ufi10.pdf USB Mass Storage Class – UFI Command Specification Revision 1.0 4.10.2 Formattable Capacity Descriptors The UFI device supports the following capacity descriptors. Table 35 - Capacity Descriptors Supported by USB-FDU DD 720 KB HD 1.25 MB (1024-byte sectors) HD 1.44 MB --===============3556540549695040307==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Mon Jan 9 19:38:48 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 12:38:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7933343073830999883==" --===============7933343073830999883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 12:19 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 10:23 AM Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2023, 6:29 PM Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > > Also, a normal USB Floppy drive can only handle 1.44MB formatted > floppies. > > 720k might work (but there is nothing in the standards to describe this) > > and oddball formats are right out. > > > > Warner > > > > > https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usbmass-ufi10.pdf > > USB Mass Storage Class =E2=80=93 UFI Command Specification Revision 1.0 > 4.10.2 Formattable Capacity Descriptors > The UFI device supports the following capacity descriptors. > Table 35 - Capacity Descriptors Supported by USB-FDU > DD 720 KB > HD 1.25 MB (1024-byte sectors) > HD 1.44 MB > Indeed... I had a memory of it not doing even the 720k drives, but either I found an old copy of the standard years ago when I was looking at this, or I just misremembered no support for 5.25" floppies at all as only supporting 1.44MB HD format... Thanks for the correction... Warner --===============7933343073830999883==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Mon Jan 9 19:41:52 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 11:41:27 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0064867381894812950==" --===============0064867381894812950== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 8, 2023, at 7:41 PM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 1/8/23 19:29, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> When reading old floppies, how often is it advisable to clean the drive? = I managed the first 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies no problem, I=E2=80=99m using a USB= Floppy Drive hooked up to my Mac Laptop, I was able to image them using =E2= =80=9CDisk Utility=E2=80=9D. The next two floppies have had errors. Though = I think I was able to successfully copy all the files off the one. >> Also, what is floppy drive cleaning fluid made of, and how well does it ag= e? I know I=E2=80=99ve got at least a couple cleaning floppies around here, = but they=E2=80=99re *OLD*. >=20 > I avoid Disk Utility like the plague. >=20 > dd works great, although MacOS's device naming is stupid. "diskutil list"= will show you what the floppy device is, and "sudo diskutil unmountdisk disk= X" will free it for imaging. >=20 > If you can source a Blue Pill, though, you can handwire it to a floppy dri= ve and run the greaseweazle tools... >=20 > https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki/Blue-Pill-Direct >=20 > Good luck! >=20 >=20 > Doc For the CD=E2=80=99s and CD-R=E2=80=99s I=E2=80=99ve been doing, I started us= ing Roxio Toast, but after a few the DVD burner on my 2010 Mac Pro decided to= stop reading disks. As a result I=E2=80=99ve been using a vintage 2011 MacB= ook Pro, and unmounting the disk, then using dd. What is the difference between a =E2=80=9CBlue Pill=E2=80=9D and a =E2=80=9CG= reaseweazle=E2=80=9D? I plugged in the USB Floppy to my modern Mac Laptop, and was pleasantly surpr= ised to find things working as well as they are. After a bit more fighting, = I think those two floppies are unreadable. The one I couldn=E2=80=99t even c= opy data out of. The other I was able to get the data off of. These are flo= ppies that haven=E2=80=99t been stored well, so I=E2=80=99m not surprised. Looking into this, Greaseweazle looks interesting. I=E2=80=99d seen some of = the posts about it, but not really paid attention. I have to admit, in part,= due to owning a Catweazle Zorro board for my Amiga 3000, that I was never th= at happy with. It looks like everything is there to then covert the Greasewe= azle images to use on an emulator (I=E2=80=99d want to mostly use on DOS Box). As it happens, one of the CD-R=E2=80=99s that I imaged, contained basically a= ll my Mac floppies, I have found a couple that didn=E2=80=99t get imaged. I= =E2=80=99d imaged them on my PowerMac 8500/180, when I was getting ready to r= eplace it with a PowerMac G4/450, as that=E2=80=99s when Apple dropped floppy= support. I need to assess just what I have for PC Floppies, that I want to try to reco= ver. At least they *should* be easier to locate than what I=E2=80=99ve been = working on so far. Zane --===============0064867381894812950==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Mon Jan 9 19:44:52 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 11:44:24 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4020609554184566440==" --===============4020609554184566440== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 9, 2023, at 11:19 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk = wrote: > https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usbmass-ufi10.pdf >=20 > USB Mass Storage Class =E2=80=93 UFI Command Specification Revision 1.0 > 4.10.2 Formattable Capacity Descriptors > The UFI device supports the following capacity descriptors. > Table 35 - Capacity Descriptors Supported by USB-FDU > DD 720 KB > HD 1.25 MB (1024-byte sectors) > HD 1.44 MB I think any 800KB Mac floppies I=E2=80=99d have, have already been imaged (on= my PowerMac 8500/180 in 1999). I=E2=80=99ve successfully read a 720KB flopp= y. Both USB Floppy drives I have are pretty old, the one I=E2=80=99m using is th= e newer of the two, and even it is about 22 years old. Zane --===============4020609554184566440==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Mon Jan 9 19:52:23 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 11:51:55 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1434170464639133397==" --===============1434170464639133397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 9, 2023, at 8:02 AM, Doc Shipley via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On 1/8/23 23:21, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/8/23 8:41 PM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: >>> I avoid Disk Utility like the plague. >> Doc, will you please elaborate on why you avoid the Disk Utility (.app)? >=20 > Short version is that the GUI Disk Utility hides too much of what it's doi= ng AND, more to the point, makes assumptions by default. Yes, it's possible = to override the default but after [holy crap!] 2 decades of using it I still = have to fumble around. >=20 > I much prefer the command-line "diskutil". It's the same tool, I guess, bu= t the CLI demands explicit control. In almost every operation that writes to= disk, if you leave out a parameter the operation doesn't happen. Bonus, you= can get very detailed diagnostic info. >=20 > Plus, you know... I'm still a little averse to pointy clicky. >=20 >=20 > Doc I think I can answer this one myself, after looking at the few images I=E2=80= =99ve created. Based on the size, and not digging deeper, it looks like the = =E2=80=9Cdmg=E2=80=9D format only stores what it has to, so it doesn=E2=80=99= t appear to be a byte-for-byte copy. Zane --===============1434170464639133397==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Mon Jan 9 19:56:34 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 11:56:09 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1662099782.7355601.1673228218024@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0768723118880389395==" --===============0768723118880389395== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 8, 2023, at 5:36 PM, Chris via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > Disks give errors, duh. Whatever you use to image a disk, use it as a first= attempt, as that may be the ONLY chance to save the contents. People put a d= isk in the drive, do a directory scan, screw around some more. And then the d= isk is no longer readable. It happens. Just bang it with whatever program you= got before worrying what's on it. At this point in time, this is advisable for almost any magnetic media any of= us would be working with. Though I=E2=80=99ll admit I have looked at a coup= le of the disks before imaging them, I=E2=80=99m trying to remember to image = first, then read the image. Zane --===============0768723118880389395==-- From philpem@philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 9 20:03:33 2023 From: Phil Pemberton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 19:25:13 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0715330516271950642==" --===============0715330516271950642== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 30/12/2022 20:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > read/restore? > > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? > > I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I > think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition. I'd start by figuring out what drive they were made with, and getting one of those (and make sure it works in R/W mode with a scratch tape). Then I'd image the tape with Tapeimgr () and see if I could figure out what software was used. I've reverse-engineered a few, Retrospect and one other, I think I uploaded it all to my Github. Usually there's a bit of plaintext or a magic number in the files which gives away the application which created them, and a quick Google search will tell you what it was. Cheers, -- Phil. philpem(a)philpem.me.uk https://www.philpem.me.uk/ --===============0715330516271950642==-- From drb@msu.edu Mon Jan 9 20:17:28 2023 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 15:16:58 -0500 Message-ID: <20230109201658.E548345B902@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2771636191142387462==" --===============2771636191142387462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Then I'd image the tape with Tapeimgr and see if I could figure out > what software was used. I've reverse-engineered a few, Retrospect and > one other, I think I uploaded it all to my Github. Phil's overall process is good, but you shouldn't use `dd` to image tapes. It discards tape block length information, which is Bad . This Tapeimgr tool just uses dd under the covers. (In some scenarios, it _may_ be true that the tape blocks are all fixed length, but you may only get one pass through the tape, so why risk it?) https://github.com/brouhaha/tapeutils is probably a better choice. It does not do as much work with metadata, but you can collect and record such metadata in a sidecar file with no more effort than using Tapeimgr. For QIC carts and the like, the little rubber bands often go sticky, and may need to be carefully replaced. And definitely do testing of the drive with a scratch monkey before risking the irreplaceable target ones. De --===============2771636191142387462==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jan 9 20:46:25 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 12:45:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3e18042b-cdb1-be50-4721-5c229884451b@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <20230109201658.E548345B902@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8563126918155976399==" --===============8563126918155976399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/9/23 12:16, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > Then I'd image the tape with Tapeimgr and see if I could figure out > > what software was used. I've reverse-engineered a few, Retrospect and > > one other, I think I uploaded it all to my Github. > > Phil's overall process is good, but you shouldn't use `dd` to image > tapes. It discards tape block length information, which is Bad . > This Tapeimgr tool just uses dd under the covers. (In some scenarios, > it _may_ be true that the tape blocks are all fixed length, but you may > only get one pass through the tape, so why risk it?) > > I've used the Linux scsitape utility (I think it's part of the mtx package, but can't say offhand).  It uses the generic SCSI interface (/dev/sgxx) rather than the mt driver.    Also, even if you use the dd commands, be sure to install the mt-st package, as it has a bunch of SCSI tape support logic in it that the default distro doesn't have. FWIW, Chuck --===============8563126918155976399==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jan 9 20:48:25 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 12:47:55 -0800 Message-ID: <35670667-9f3a-d732-9989-d19684601953@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1934054883241571529==" --===============1934054883241571529== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/9/23 11:56, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > At this point in time, this is advisable for almost any magnetic media > any of us would be working with. Though I’ll admit I have looked at a > couple of the disks before imaging them, I’m trying to remember to > image first, then read the image. Half-inch open-reel magtapes seem to be an exception if the binder is in good condition.   Multiple passes through a drive may improve the recoverability because of the "tape scraper" in the drive. --Chuck --===============1934054883241571529==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Tue Jan 10 05:32:31 2023 From: nico de jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 06:16:27 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1a50b284-7652-d55e-7362-1740de15bc22@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0964107811575057887==" --===============0964107811575057887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Chuck Speaking of old floppies, when I was busy converting floppies (I've now been retired for 10 years) I frequently had problems reading some 5.25" disks, but only on specific drives. Those disks came from IBM systems, probably S/3. I cannot be sure that the solution holds, but it was my experience that those "faulty" discs could be read on TEAC FD235GFR drives orignating from Japan. Not the ones from the Philippines ! That puzzled me, until I called MIchael Cotgrove from (then) Intermedia in the UK, who told me that he knew that some IBM systems ran the drives at a lower speed, and that that very well could be the problem. After that explanation, I only used the 142U version of the drive, and the problems went away. Does this sound familiar? --Nico On 2023-01-09 20:12, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/9/23 10:23, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> Also, a normal USB Floppy drive can only handle 1.44MB formatted floppies. >> 720k might work (but there is nothing in the standards to describe this) >> and oddball formats are right out. >> > I've found that most 3.5" USB floppy drives also support the 1.23MB > 8x1024 disks.  (e.g. legacy 3-mode drive equivalent). > > Probably not useful for most people, but noteworthy. > > --Chuck > --===============0964107811575057887==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 10 06:14:31 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 22:14:02 -0800 Message-ID: <6401560e-c745-8576-9bd7-b189bf6bfc79@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8651440312117761710==" --===============8651440312117761710== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/9/23 21:16, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > Hello Chuck > > Speaking of old floppies, when I was busy converting floppies (I've > now been retired for 10 years) I frequently had problems reading some > 5.25" disks, but only on specific drives. Those disks came from IBM > systems, probably S/3. > > I cannot be sure that the solution holds, but it was my experience > that those "faulty" discs could be read on TEAC FD235GFR drives > orignating from Japan. Not the ones from the Philippines ! That > puzzled me, until I called MIchael Cotgrove from (then) Intermedia in > the UK, who told me that he knew that some IBM systems ran the drives > at a lower speed, and that that very well could be the problem. After > that explanation, I only used the 142U version of the drive, and the > problems went away. > > Does this sound familiar? HI Nico, It sounds puzzling to me--the FD235 is a 3.5" drive, so I'm not sure what you were using to read the problem disks with. --Chuck --===============8651440312117761710==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Tue Jan 10 06:28:31 2023 From: nico de jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 07:28:00 +0100 Message-ID: <307ac8bb-cb39-e02d-fbc7-a97f560127ab@farumdata.dk> In-Reply-To: <6401560e-c745-8576-9bd7-b189bf6bfc79@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8541030056046604006==" --===============8541030056046604006== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-10 07:14, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/9/23 21:16, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: >> Hello Chuck >> >> Speaking of old floppies, when I was busy converting floppies (I've >> now been retired for 10 years) I frequently had problems reading some >> 5.25" disks, but only on specific drives. Those disks came from IBM >> systems, probably S/3. >> >> I cannot be sure that the solution holds, but it was my experience >> that those "faulty" discs could be read on TEAC FD235GFR drives >> orignating from Japan. Not the ones from the Philippines ! That >> puzzled me, until I called MIchael Cotgrove from (then) Intermedia in >> the UK, who told me that he knew that some IBM systems ran the drives >> at a lower speed, and that that very well could be the problem. After >> that explanation, I only used the 142U version of the drive, and the >> problems went away. >> >> Does this sound familiar? > HI Nico, > > It sounds puzzling to me--the FD235 is a 3.5" drive, so I'm not sure > what you were using to read the problem disks with. > > --Chuck My apologies ! Read the wrong note...  I was speaking about the FD5GFR ! -- Nico --===============8541030056046604006==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 10 06:31:30 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 22:31:06 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6401560e-c745-8576-9bd7-b189bf6bfc79@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7121849724268680356==" --===============7121849724268680356== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 1/9/23 21:16, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: >> Hello Chuck >> >> Speaking of old floppies, when I was busy converting floppies (I've >> now been retired for 10 years) I frequently had problems reading some >> 5.25" disks, but only on specific drives. Those disks came from IBM >> systems, probably S/3. >> >> I cannot be sure that the solution holds, but it was my experience >> that those "faulty" discs could be read on TEAC FD235GFR drives >> orignating from Japan. Not the ones from the Philippines ! That >> puzzled me, until I called MIchael Cotgrove from (then) Intermedia in >> the UK, who told me that he knew that some IBM systems ran the drives >> at a lower speed, and that that very well could be the problem. After >> that explanation, I only used the 142U version of the drive, and the >> problems went away. >> >> Does this sound familiar? On Mon, 9 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > HI Nico, > It sounds puzzling to me--the FD235 is a 3.5" drive, so I'm not sure > what you were using to read the problem disks with. A little quick speculation, but not determinable without the system, . . . The Teac FD55F was a 96tpi "720K" drive at 300 RPM The Teac FD55G was a "1.2M" drive. 360RPM The FD55GF was both, and there were several variants, with different jumpers, etc. (hence differences between the various ones) Was the drive running at 300RPM, or 360RPM? If the disks were HD, then they should have been at 360 RPM, with a data transfer rate of 500K. If the disks were NOT HD, and were 640K - 800K "quad" density, then they should have been at 300RPM with 250K data transfer rate, OR at 360RPM with a 300K data transfer rate. Could you have been suffering from something as simple as a rotation speed / data transfer rate mismatch? The 5170 supported 250K data transfer rates ("360K" disk/drive) 500K data transfer rate ("1.2M" disk/drive) and 300K data transfer rate ("360K" disk in "1.2M" drive) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7121849724268680356==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Tue Jan 10 06:58:28 2023 From: nico de jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 07:50:00 +0100 Message-ID: <0959f280-748a-6dbb-1d50-d5385ee46e79@farumdata.dk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2456781268464528265==" --===============2456781268464528265== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-10 07:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> On 1/9/23 21:16, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: >>> Hello Chuck >>> >>> Speaking of old floppies, when I was busy converting floppies (I've >>> now been retired for 10 years) I frequently had problems reading some >>> 5.25" disks, but only on specific drives. Those disks came from IBM >>> systems, probably S/3. >>> >>> I cannot be sure that the solution holds, but it was my experience >>> that those "faulty" discs could be read on TEAC FD235GFR drives >>> orignating from Japan. Not the ones from the Philippines ! That >>> puzzled me, until I called MIchael Cotgrove from (then) Intermedia in >>> the UK, who told me that he knew that some IBM systems ran the drives >>> at a lower speed, and that that very well could be the problem. After >>> that explanation, I only used the 142U version of the drive, and the >>> problems went away. >>> >>> Does this sound familiar? > On Mon, 9 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> HI Nico, >> It sounds puzzling to me--the FD235 is a 3.5" drive, so I'm not sure >> what you were using to read the problem disks with. > > A little quick speculation, but not determinable without the system, . > . . > The Teac FD55F was a 96tpi "720K" drive at 300 RPM > The Teac FD55G was a "1.2M" drive. 360RPM > The FD55GF was both, and there were several variants, with different > jumpers, etc.  (hence differences between the various ones) > > Was the drive running at 300RPM, or 360RPM? > If the disks were HD, then they should have been at 360 RPM, with a > data transfer rate of 500K. > If the disks were NOT HD, and were 640K - 800K "quad" density, then > they should have been at 300RPM with 250K data transfer rate, OR at > 360RPM with a 300K data transfer rate. > Could you have been suffering from something as simple as a rotation > speed / data transfer rate mismatch? > The 5170 supported 250K data transfer rates ("360K" disk/drive) > 500K data transfer rate ("1.2M" disk/drive) > and 300K data transfer rate ("360K" disk in "1.2M" drive) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com I think that this is a logical explanation. Nice to know guys like you are still around :-) Thanks Nico --===============2456781268464528265==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 10 07:22:22 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 23:12:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7682173630221499784==" --===============7682173630221499784== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/9/23 22:31, Fred Cisin wrote: > > A little quick speculation, but not determinable without the system, . > . . > The Teac FD55F was a 96tpi "720K" drive at 300 RPM > The Teac FD55G was a "1.2M" drive. 360RPM > The FD55GF was both, and there were several variants, with different > jumpers, etc.  (hence differences between the various ones) > > Was the drive running at 300RPM, or 360RPM? > If the disks were HD, then they should have been at 360 RPM, with a > data transfer rate of 500K. > If the disks were NOT HD, and were 640K - 800K "quad" density, then > they should have been at 300RPM with 250K data transfer rate, OR at > 360RPM with a 300K data transfer rate. > Could you have been suffering from something as simple as a rotation > speed / data transfer rate mismatch? > The 5170 supported 250K data transfer rates ("360K" disk/drive) > 500K data transfer rate ("1.2M" disk/drive) > and 300K data transfer rate ("360K" disk in "1.2M" drive) What Fred said.  I'll add that a similar situation applies in the 3.5" world.  The standard in the Japanese NEC PC world was for all floppies to share a common format, namely 8 sectors of 1024 bytes, starting with the 8" drives, which normally spin at 360 RPM and use a 500Kb/sec data transfer rate.  So the IBM 5170 1.2MB drive in high-density is a direct descendant of that, though early Japanese 1.2MB drives did not have a low-density mode--and IBM elected to stick with 512 byte sectors.   Finally, we get to 3.5", where the NEC standard was 360 RPM, not 300.   This resulted in the "3-mode drive" where a pin (usually pin 4) is used to switch the drive RPM between 300 and 360.   The Teac FD235HG drives can do this (assuming that they're jumpered correspondingly).  The 1.23 MB format was used on a lot of Japanese CNC gear; e.g. Mitsubishi/Mazak. --Chuck --===============7682173630221499784==-- From nico@farumdata.dk Tue Jan 10 08:26:11 2023 From: nico de jong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 09:25:35 +0100 Message-ID: <9ea83860-9406-f791-c3cc-cb8b7fb7784e@farumdata.dk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0806203855006216757==" --===============0806203855006216757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-10 08:12, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/9/23 22:31, Fred Cisin wrote: >> A little quick speculation, but not determinable without the system, . >> . . >> The Teac FD55F was a 96tpi "720K" drive at 300 RPM >> The Teac FD55G was a "1.2M" drive. 360RPM >> The FD55GF was both, and there were several variants, with different >> jumpers, etc.  (hence differences between the various ones) >> >> Was the drive running at 300RPM, or 360RPM? >> If the disks were HD, then they should have been at 360 RPM, with a >> data transfer rate of 500K. >> If the disks were NOT HD, and were 640K - 800K "quad" density, then >> they should have been at 300RPM with 250K data transfer rate, OR at >> 360RPM with a 300K data transfer rate. >> Could you have been suffering from something as simple as a rotation >> speed / data transfer rate mismatch? >> The 5170 supported 250K data transfer rates ("360K" disk/drive) >> 500K data transfer rate ("1.2M" disk/drive) >> and 300K data transfer rate ("360K" disk in "1.2M" drive) > What Fred said.  I'll add that a similar situation applies in the 3.5" > world.  The standard in the Japanese NEC PC world was for all floppies > to share a common format, namely 8 sectors of 1024 bytes, starting with > the 8" drives, which normally spin at 360 RPM and use a 500Kb/sec data > transfer rate.  So the IBM 5170 1.2MB drive in high-density is a direct > descendant of that, though early Japanese 1.2MB drives did not have a > low-density mode--and IBM elected to stick with 512 byte sectors. > Finally, we get to 3.5", where the NEC standard was 360 RPM, not 300. > This resulted in the "3-mode drive" where a pin (usually pin 4) is used > to switch the drive RPM between 300 and 360.   The Teac FD235HG drives > can do this (assuming that they're jumpered correspondingly).  The 1.23 > MB format was used on a lot of Japanese CNC gear; e.g. Mitsubishi/Mazak. > > --Chuck That reminds me of the first microcomputer I had, back in 1985 or so. It was a SORD (model 323?), which was "born" with 1 360k drive. I requested the addition of a 5.25 1.2 MB drive, on the condition that it could read and write IBM HD floppies. The operating system was a japanese MS-DOS version. I had serious problems (like "unwritable") with the drive/format, so I eventually, after 3 years, got a credit note :-) -- NIco --===============0806203855006216757==-- From shumaker@att.net Tue Jan 10 17:01:58 2023 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 09:01:30 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2540412491944677944==" --===============2540412491944677944== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Popped up in a search:=C2=A0=C2=A0 A DEC LINC Eight up for auction in Frieden= s, PA. https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage Currently has a single bid for $1.00....=C2=A0 They are even offering shippin= g! Visually looks to be in excellent shape https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext=3D&= w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwWW3aM= 2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs Steve --===============2540412491944677944==-- From cramcram@gmail.com Tue Jan 10 17:19:12 2023 From: Marc Howard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 12:18:35 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1507790049798733665==" --===============1507790049798733665== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cool. The only thing I notice is that it doesn't seem to have enough cards in it. I think a TC01 interface is an entire rack of cards for instance. Still I'm tempted as I doubt I'll ever get a chance the wildly overspend on a PDP-12. Marc On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 12:01 PM steve shumaker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC Eight up for auction in Friedens, PA. > > https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage > Currently has a single bid for $1.00.... They are even offering shipping! > > > > Visually looks to be in excellent shape > > > https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext= =3D&w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwW= W3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs > > > Steve > --===============1507790049798733665==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Tue Jan 10 17:36:41 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 17:36:05 +0000 Message-ID: <2013725149.5599682.1673372165256@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0598113631344714913==" --===============0598113631344714913== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Absolutely gorgeous!Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: Popped up in a search:=C2=A0=C2=A0 A DEC LINC Eight up for= auction in Friedens, PA. https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage Currently has a single bid for $1.00....=C2=A0 They are even offering shippin= g! Visually looks to be in excellent shape https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext=3D&= w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwWW3aM= 2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs Steve =20 --===============0598113631344714913==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 10 19:05:36 2023 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 11:05:01 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5324239938247953513==" --===============5324239938247953513== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2023-01-10 at 06:16 +0100, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of old floppies In about 1975, I was sharing an office with a lady who bought an Ohio Scientific 6502 computer, with two 5.25 inch floppy disk drives, instead of an Imsai 8800 with one 8.4 inch drive. She got a tee shirt that said "I've got two floppies." Except she didn't. --===============5324239938247953513==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Jan 10 19:11:49 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 20:11:12 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1588474213747529256==" --===============1588474213747529256== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 9 Jan 2023 at 17:02, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > > Short version is that the GUI Disk Utility hides too much of what > it's doing AND, more to the point, makes assumptions by default. Yes, > it's possible to override the default but after [holy crap!] 2 decades > of using it I still have to fumble around. This is a good point. Disk Utility was pretty good up until Yosemite (10.10 for non-Illiminati). Then Apple castrated it and ripped out most of the facilities to specify partition sizes exactly and so on. Up to High Sierra (10.13) it used a fairly standard *nix partitioning layout, only on the non-case-sensitive Apple HFS+ filesystem from Classic MacOS 8.1 back in 1998. (Apple's equivalent to FAT32, so to speak.) Mojave (10.14) switched to the new APFS. Since then, Apple has been devising an increasingly complex set of disk containers with limited or no write permissions, in efforts to make the system more resilient. It is also worth noting that the disk layout of Arm Macs is _substantially_ more complicated than that of Intel ones. Here's a guide to the structure in macOS 12, Monterey: https://eclecticlight.co/2021/12/16/boot-disk-layout-in-macos-monterey/ The forthcoming version 13 is anticipated to be a lot more complex than that. For my venerable Intel Macs, I have been known to just boot Ubuntu off a USB key and use Gparted to set up the partitions, then reboot off a macOS USB key and install onto the result. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1588474213747529256==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue Jan 10 20:19:57 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 12:38:20 -0600 Message-ID: <97544374-3222-cfee-806c-2b97211bdec7@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <2013725149.5599682.1673372165256@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2385928979730462479==" --===============2385928979730462479== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where did you see them offering shipping? All I could see was a paragraph stating that anything not picked up at=20 the designated time would be consider abandoned and charged to your=20 credit card anyway. On 1/10/2023 11:36 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Absolutely gorgeous!Ed# > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > =20 > On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: Popped up in a search:=C2=A0=C2=A0 A DEC LINC Eight up = for auction in Friedens, PA. > > https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage > Currently has a single bid for $1.00....=C2=A0 They are even offering shipp= ing! > > > > Visually looks to be in excellent shape > > https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext= =3D&w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwW= W3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs > > > Steve > =20 --===============2385928979730462479==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jan 10 20:31:47 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:31:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <97544374-3222-cfee-806c-2b97211bdec7@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2797303092302880831==" --===============2797303092302880831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think if I got the LINC I'd want to pick it up myself. On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 3:19 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Where did you see them offering shipping? > > All I could see was a paragraph stating that anything not picked up at > the designated time would be consider abandoned and charged to your > credit card anyway. > > On 1/10/2023 11:36 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Absolutely gorgeous!Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk< > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC Eight > up for auction in Friedens, PA. > > > > > https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage > > Currently has a single bid for $1.00.... They are even offering > shipping! > > > > > > > > Visually looks to be in excellent shape > > > > > https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext= =3D&w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwW= W3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs > > > > > > Steve > > > > --===============2797303092302880831==-- From turing@shaw.ca Tue Jan 10 20:35:58 2023 From: Norman Jaffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 13:28:27 -0700 Message-ID: <450934129.11586754.1673382507217.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <97544374-3222-cfee-806c-2b97211bdec7@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7018578368681678654==" --===============7018578368681678654== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The web-page explicitly says 'shipping available', which doesn't mean that sh= ipping will be free, of course...=20 From: "Mike Katz via cctalk" =20 To: "ED SHARPE" , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off= -Topic Posts" =20 Cc: "Mike Katz" =20 Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2023 10:38:20 AM=20 Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction=20 Where did you see them offering shipping?=20 All I could see was a paragraph stating that anything not picked up at=20 the designated time would be consider abandoned and charged to your=20 credit card anyway.=20 On 1/10/2023 11:36 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:=20 > Absolutely gorgeous!Ed#=20 >=20 > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 >=20 > On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC Eight up for auction in Fr= iedens, PA.=20 >=20 > https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage=20 > Currently has a single bid for $1.00.... They are even offering shipping!=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Visually looks to be in excellent shape=20 >=20 > https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext= =3D&w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwW= W3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs=20 >=20 >=20 > Steve=20 >=20 --===============7018578368681678654==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 20:40:10 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 20:39:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <97544374-3222-cfee-806c-2b97211bdec7@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2722232950611979324==" --===============2722232950611979324== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It says =E2=80=9Cshipping available=E2=80=9D on the ad. I=E2=80=99ve had a lo= t of experience with hibid sellers and when they say shipping available it e= ither means they will package and ship themselves or drop it off at the ups s= tore and let ups contact you for payment. When i bid I usually write need shi= pping to wherever in the comments field.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 10, 2023, at 12:19, Mike Katz via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFWhere did you see them offering shipping? >=20 > All I could see was a paragraph stating that anything not picked up at the = designated time would be consider abandoned and charged to your credit card a= nyway. >=20 >> On 1/10/2023 11:36 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> Absolutely gorgeous!Ed# >>=20 >> Sent from the all new AOL app for Android >> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC Eight up for auct= ion in Friedens, PA. >>=20 >> https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage >> Currently has a single bid for $1.00.... They are even offering shipping! >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Visually looks to be in excellent shape >>=20 >> https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext= =3D&w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwW= W3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs >>=20 >>=20 >> Steve >> =20 >=20 --===============2722232950611979324==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 10 20:53:37 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 12:53:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6252325291322385713==" --===============6252325291322385713== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > In about 1975, I was sharing an office with a lady who bought an Ohio > Scientific 6502 computer, with two 5.25 inch floppy disk drives, > instead of an Imsai 8800 with one 8.4 inch drive. > She got a tee shirt that said "I've got two floppies." > Except she didn't. The 5.25" drives were called "mini-floppies" Just a couple years later, . . . The Shugart SA400 was released in 1976, but was hard to get for a few years. The OSI Challenger was, IIRC, 1978 A few years later, I got a used ["Euro"]-Apple II, converted for USA use, in an OSI Challenger case (with wood (walnu?) sides), with an external RCA keyboard. I would rather have had the OSI, but that wasn't available at the computer swap. OSI used a PIA chip, instead of a conventional FDC chip, so WD/NEC style controllers can not read those disks. --===============6252325291322385713==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Tue Jan 10 20:54:02 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 12:53:26 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181A8AE0E59E9B5B2B03DB8E4FF9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7676873370229652200==" --===============7676873370229652200== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 12:39 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > It says =E2=80=9Cshipping available=E2=80=9D on the ad. I=E2=80=99ve had a = lot of experience with > hibid sellers and when they say shipping available it either means they > will package and ship themselves or drop it off at the ups store and let > ups contact you for payment. When i bid I usually write need shipping to > wherever in the comments field. > I've been interested in a few pieces of CNC equipment at distant auctions. IME "shipping available" means they have a list of third parties you can contact. When I checked their pricing was extortionate (pickup fee, packing fee and totally non-competitive LTL estimate). Now I only look at stuff within a day or so's drive. Tony --===============7676873370229652200==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jan 10 20:54:28 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:53:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181A8AE0E59E9B5B2B03DB8E4FF9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3831738001104848973==" --===============3831738001104848973== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Totally, but to have a LINC shipped would be quite a project, expensive On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 3:39 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > It says =E2=80=9Cshipping available=E2=80=9D on the ad. I=E2=80=99ve had a = lot of experience with > hibid sellers and when they say shipping available it either means they > will package and ship themselves or drop it off at the ups store and let > ups contact you for payment. When i bid I usually write need shipping to > wherever in the comments field. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 10, 2023, at 12:19, Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFWhere did you see them offering shipping? > > > > All I could see was a paragraph stating that anything not picked up at > the designated time would be consider abandoned and charged to your credit > card anyway. > > > >> On 1/10/2023 11:36 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> Absolutely gorgeous!Ed# > >> > >> Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > >> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk< > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC Eight > up for auction in Friedens, PA. > >> > >> > https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage > >> Currently has a single bid for $1.00.... They are even offering > shipping! > >> > >> > >> > >> Visually looks to be in excellent shape > >> > >> > https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext= =3D&w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwW= W3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs > >> > >> > >> Steve > >> > > > --===============3831738001104848973==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 21:01:40 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 21:01:14 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6118953383676384144==" --===============6118953383676384144== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep. But they offer to do the legwork for you so there=E2=80=99s that. The Linc machine would cost a bit but the box of linc tapes not too much. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 10, 2023, at 12:54, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFTotally, but to have a LINC shipped would be quite a project, expe= nsive >=20 >> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 3:39 PM Wayne S via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >> It says =E2=80=9Cshipping available=E2=80=9D on the ad. I=E2=80=99ve had a= lot of experience with >> hibid sellers and when they say shipping available it either means they >> will package and ship themselves or drop it off at the ups store and let >> ups contact you for payment. When i bid I usually write need shipping to >> wherever in the comments field. >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>> On Jan 10, 2023, at 12:19, Mike Katz via cctalk >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFWhere did you see them offering shipping? >>>=20 >>> All I could see was a paragraph stating that anything not picked up at >> the designated time would be consider abandoned and charged to your credit >> card anyway. >>>=20 >>>> On 1/10/2023 11:36 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >>>> Absolutely gorgeous!Ed# >>>>=20 >>>> Sent from the all new AOL app for Android >>>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk< >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC Eight >> up for auction in Friedens, PA. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >> https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage >>>> Currently has a single bid for $1.00.... They are even offering >> shipping! >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Visually looks to be in excellent shape >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >> https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext= =3D&w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwW= W3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Steve >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 --===============6118953383676384144==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 10 21:24:03 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OSI floppies (Was: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 13:23:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6245509175007378243==" --===============6245509175007378243== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Ohio Scientific 6502 computer, with two 5.25 inch floppy disk drives, Shugart SA400 drive: 35 track, 48tpi PIA/UART, instead of FDC chip. "VERY soft-sector" It is FM, at usual 125Kbps used on 5.25" single density, but, without=20 WD/IBM track and sector header format. So, a flux transition board might work, or maybe even a "track read" of a=20 WD FDC. NEC "track read" is actually "multiple sector read", so will not=20 work on other than WD/IBM track/sector format, without extra efforts to=20 FOOL the FDC into doing an actual track read (cf. reading Amiga on PC) https://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3D1284 has some details on the floppy format! "Each track has a track header, which is written and read approximately 1=20 ms after the index pulse, consisting of a 2-byte track start code,=20 followed by the track number in BCD, followed by a stop byte code. The=20 track header is followed by a software-defined gap. "Each sector is indicated by a sector start code, followed by a sector=20 number byte, followed by the sector length, followed by the sector data=20 (the length in pages multiplied by 256 bytes), followed by a sector end=20 sequence. There is a software-defined gap between each sector." https://osiweb.org/computes_gazette/Compute_n020_p136_OS65D_Disk_Routines_Par= t1.pdf https://osiweb.org/computes_gazette/Compute_n021_p118_OS65D_Disk_Routines_Par= t2.pdf --===============6245509175007378243==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 10 21:32:43 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 13:32:07 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3021527042004324761==" --===============3021527042004324761== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 12:53 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > A few years later, I got a used ["Euro"]-Apple II, converted for USA use, > in an OSI Challenger case (with wood (walnu?) sides), with an external RCA > keyboard. > Did the motherboard have an additional RAM chip to accommodate the PAL-based hi-res graphics resolution? Sellam --===============3021527042004324761==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 10 21:41:26 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 13:41:04 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1738984123963103135==" --===============1738984123963103135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> A few years later, I got a used ["Euro"]-Apple II, converted for USA use, >> in an OSI Challenger case (with wood (walnu?) sides), with an external RCA >> keyboard. On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Did the motherboard have an additional RAM chip to accommodate the > PAL-based hi-res graphics resolution? I don't remember. It was working as an AppleII If you didn't get it, then maybe Eric Smith? --===============1738984123963103135==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Tue Jan 10 21:43:50 2023 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 16:43:06 -0500 Message-ID: <9A2FD219-9298-4D4C-841D-4CD890BF4262@ryandelaplante.ca> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21812A5CBEFF900F0E1EBA5DE4FF9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3736951265358841150==" --===============3736951265358841150== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ve used Craters & Freighters and also Pakmail to pick up large mach= ines like this, crate them professionally, and ship them to me in the past. = Sellers love that they have to do nothing.=20 I wish I had more space to house machines like this, but will have to pass. = I have a Straight-8 that appears to have all the cards but needs some seriou= s restoration work. The front panel glass has had all of the paint flaked of= f, the glass is broken, and the plexiglass covers also got smashed. I plan t= o make reproductions someday when I have the time. I=E2=80=99d love to get i= t fully restored. I have working VT05 and ASR33 terminals to go with it. =20 While I have your attention.. I=E2=80=99m in the market for a VT52 and TU56 += controller. I already know they aren=E2=80=99t easy to find or cheap. - obsol33t > On Jan 10, 2023, at 4:01 PM, Wayne S via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > Yep. But they offer to do the legwork for you so there=E2=80=99s that. > The Linc machine would cost a bit but the box of linc tapes not too much. >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Jan 10, 2023, at 12:54, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFTotally, but to have a LINC shipped would be quite a project, exp= ensive >>=20 >>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 3:39 PM Wayne S via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> It says =E2=80=9Cshipping available=E2=80=9D on the ad. I=E2=80=99ve had = a lot of experience with >>> hibid sellers and when they say shipping available it either means they >>> will package and ship themselves or drop it off at the ups store and let >>> ups contact you for payment. When i bid I usually write need shipping to >>> wherever in the comments field. >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>>> On Jan 10, 2023, at 12:19, Mike Katz via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BFWhere did you see them offering shipping? >>>>=20 >>>> All I could see was a paragraph stating that anything not picked up at >>> the designated time would be consider abandoned and charged to your credit >>> card anyway. >>>>=20 >>>>> On 1/10/2023 11:36 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Absolutely gorgeous!Ed# >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sent from the all new AOL app for Android >>>>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk< >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC Eig= ht >>> up for auction in Friedens, PA. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>> https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage >>>>> Currently has a single bid for $1.00.... They are even offering >>> shipping! >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Visually looks to be in excellent shape >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>> https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext= =3D&w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwW= W3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Steve >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 --===============3736951265358841150==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 10 21:58:50 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 13:58:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9A2FD219-9298-4D4C-841D-4CD890BF4262@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5910827380421306058==" --===============5910827380421306058== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ryan, Let me know if you need measurements for the plexiglass sides. I still have those in my PDP-8 replica folder. Sellam On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 1:43 PM Ryan de Laplante via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I=E2=80=99ve used Craters & Freighters and also Pakmail to pick up large ma= chines > like this, crate them professionally, and ship them to me in the past. > Sellers love that they have to do nothing. > > I wish I had more space to house machines like this, but will have to > pass. I have a Straight-8 that appears to have all the cards but needs > some serious restoration work. The front panel glass has had all of the > paint flaked off, the glass is broken, and the plexiglass covers also got > smashed. I plan to make reproductions someday when I have the time. I=E2= =80=99d > love to get it fully restored. I have working VT05 and ASR33 terminals to > go with it. > > While I have your attention.. I=E2=80=99m in the market for a VT52 and TU56= + > controller. I already know they aren=E2=80=99t easy to find or cheap. > > > - obsol33t > > > > > On Jan 10, 2023, at 4:01 PM, Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Yep. But they offer to do the legwork for you so there=E2=80=99s that. > > The Linc machine would cost a bit but the box of linc tapes not too much. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Jan 10, 2023, at 12:54, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> =EF=BB=BFTotally, but to have a LINC shipped would be quite a project, e= xpensive > >> > >>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 3:39 PM Wayne S via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> It says =E2=80=9Cshipping available=E2=80=9D on the ad. I=E2=80=99ve ha= d a lot of experience > with > >>> hibid sellers and when they say shipping available it either means > they > >>> will package and ship themselves or drop it off at the ups store and > let > >>> ups contact you for payment. When i bid I usually write need shipping > to > >>> wherever in the comments field. > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>>> On Jan 10, 2023, at 12:19, Mike Katz via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> =EF=BB=BFWhere did you see them offering shipping? > >>>> > >>>> All I could see was a paragraph stating that anything not picked up at > >>> the designated time would be consider abandoned and charged to your > credit > >>> card anyway. > >>>> > >>>>> On 1/10/2023 11:36 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >>>>> Absolutely gorgeous!Ed# > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > >>>>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk< > >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC > Eight > >>> up for auction in Friedens, PA. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage > >>>>> Currently has a single bid for $1.00.... They are even offering > >>> shipping! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Visually looks to be in excellent shape > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext= =3D&w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwW= W3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Steve > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > --===============5910827380421306058==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 10 22:05:08 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 14:04:28 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7689575689479426022==" --===============7689575689479426022== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Was it this style (Challenger 4P)? https://imgs.search.brave.com/p_LUazpNEKMRJwuHl-uqgVmE7lVt1-7AodxQMTSCvOY/rs:= fit:400:326:1/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu/aXRoaXN0b3J5Lm9y/Zy9zaXRlcy9kZWZh/dWx0L2Z= pbGVzL2hh/cmR3YXJlL09oaW9D/aGFsbDRQMy5KUEc I can't remember if I ever had a 4P but I did have I think two 2 or 2P models. Either way, I'm not sure if I got any from you, but in the end, if I did, you know what happened. I do still have a Challenger motherboard around here somewhere, as well as I think an OSI of some model in a custom-built big-box style enclosure. Sellam On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 1:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> A few years later, I got a used ["Euro"]-Apple II, converted for USA > use, > >> in an OSI Challenger case (with wood (walnu?) sides), with an external > RCA > >> keyboard. > > On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Did the motherboard have an additional RAM chip to accommodate the > > PAL-based hi-res graphics resolution? > > I don't remember. It was working as an AppleII > If you didn't get it, then maybe Eric Smith? > --===============7689575689479426022==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 10 22:21:25 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 14:20:59 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2948796733312053359==" --===============2948796733312053359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> A few years later, I got a used ["Euro"]-Apple II, converted for USA=20 >> use, in an OSI Challenger case (with wood (walnu?) sides), with an=20 >> external RCA keyboard. >> If you didn't get it, then maybe Eric Smith? On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Was it this style (Challenger 4P)? > https://imgs.search.brave.com/p_LUazpNEKMRJwuHl-uqgVmE7lVt1-7AodxQMTSCvOY/r= s:fit:400:326:1/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu/aXRoaXN0b3J5Lm9y/Zy9zaXRlcy9kZWZh/dWx0L= 2ZpbGVzL2hh/cmR3YXJlL09oaW9D/aGFsbDRQMy5KUEc > I can't remember if I ever had a 4P but I did have I think two 2 or 2P > models. > Either way, I'm not sure if I got any from you, but in the end, if I did, > you know what happened. > I do still have a Challenger motherboard around here somewhere, as well as > I think an OSI of some model in a custom-built big-box style enclosure. Yes, it was that style, but BLUE No floppy unit. The external RCA keyboard was black, and a splash resistant case. --===============2948796733312053359==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 10 23:18:50 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:18:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3558687156966737423==" --===============3558687156966737423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, the 2/2P models I [think I] had were blue. Sellam On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 2:21 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> A few years later, I got a used ["Euro"]-Apple II, converted for USA > >> use, in an OSI Challenger case (with wood (walnu?) sides), with an > >> external RCA keyboard. > >> If you didn't get it, then maybe Eric Smith? > > On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Was it this style (Challenger 4P)? > > > https://imgs.search.brave.com/p_LUazpNEKMRJwuHl-uqgVmE7lVt1-7AodxQMTSCvOY/r= s:fit:400:326:1/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu/aXRoaXN0b3J5Lm9y/Zy9zaXRlcy9kZWZh/dWx0L= 2ZpbGVzL2hh/cmR3YXJlL09oaW9D/aGFsbDRQMy5KUEc > > I can't remember if I ever had a 4P but I did have I think two 2 or 2P > > models. > > Either way, I'm not sure if I got any from you, but in the end, if I did, > > you know what happened. > > I do still have a Challenger motherboard around here somewhere, as well > as > > I think an OSI of some model in a custom-built big-box style enclosure. > > Yes, it was that style, but BLUE > No floppy unit. > The external RCA keyboard was black, and a splash resistant case. > --===============3558687156966737423==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 10 23:44:26 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:44:03 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <98d5e181-1a55-ccf9-2155-a1b88cef1be2@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0037416443098139964==" --===============0037416443098139964== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Fred Cisin wrote: > So, a flux transition board might work, (for OSI disks) On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Mike Katz wrote: > I haven't seen any mention of greaseweazel types of "flux" readers. They > read the flux changes off of the floppy and then interpret them with a > separate program. > I use this to analyze DEC RX01 & RX02 8" floppies. > I know it works with FM, MFM and GCR disks as well as single and double > sided diskettes. Well, the original post that started this thread was primarily about cleaning the heads of the drive being used, with reading being done by essentially the same hardware that wrote them. (NOT OSI disks) Disk head cleaning would be about the same when using a flux transition board, as when using the original system. Possibly very minor issues, in terms of how many revolutions end up being needed for each successful track read. I think that a flux transition system would seem be appropriate for the OSI disks. Although, it would be good to hear from anybody who has read OSI disks. (are there any OTHER differences that need to be taken into account?) At one time, I speculated whether a flux transition system could be used to read the second side of a flippy disk without flipping it. Or, reading the second side of a double sided disk in a single sided drive, by flipping it. But, then I remembered/realized that double sided drive heads are physically radially offset from each other. --===============0037416443098139964==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 11 00:22:27 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 17:24:16 -0600 Message-ID: <98d5e181-1a55-ccf9-2155-a1b88cef1be2@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6548679922104608633==" --===============6548679922104608633== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I haven't seen any mention of greaseweazel types of "flux" readers. They=20 read the flux changes off of the floppy and then interpret them with a=20 separate program. I use this to analyze DEC RX01 & RX02 8" floppies. I know it works with FM, MFM and GCR disks as well as single and double=20 sided diskettes. On 1/10/2023 4:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> A few years later, I got a used ["Euro"]-Apple II, converted for USA=20 >>> use, in an OSI Challenger case (with wood (walnu?) sides), with an=20 >>> external RCA keyboard. >>> If you didn't get it, then maybe Eric Smith? > > On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> Was it this style (Challenger 4P)? >> https://imgs.search.brave.com/p_LUazpNEKMRJwuHl-uqgVmE7lVt1-7AodxQMTSCvOY/= rs:fit:400:326:1/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu/aXRoaXN0b3J5Lm9y/Zy9zaXRlcy9kZWZh/dWx0= L2ZpbGVzL2hh/cmR3YXJlL09oaW9D/aGFsbDRQMy5KUEc=20 >> >> I can't remember if I ever had a 4P but I did have I think two 2 or 2P >> models. >> Either way, I'm not sure if I got any from you, but in the end, if I=20 >> did, >> you know what happened. >> I do still have a Challenger motherboard around here somewhere, as=20 >> well as >> I think an OSI of some model in a custom-built big-box style enclosure. > > Yes, it was that style, but BLUE > No floppy unit. > The external RCA keyboard was black, and a splash resistant case. --===============6548679922104608633==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Jan 11 01:07:22 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] large HP monitors need home/s Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 01:06:53 +0000 Message-ID: <1904639864.131118.1673399213828@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1904639864.131118.1673399213828.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4749816369903976598==" --===============4749816369903976598== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2 x 16" Trinitrons, missing rear plastic covers 1 is a 98789a 64hkz, forget the other, 48khz 1 x 19" large rectangular color unit, doesn't work. I'll be tossing these before very long. --===============4749816369903976598==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Jan 11 01:13:50 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: large HP monitors need home/s Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 17:13:03 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1904639864.131118.1673399213828@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6129302113010778607==" --===============6129302113010778607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 5:07 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > 2 x 16" Trinitrons, missing rear plastic covers > > 1 is a 98789a 64hkz, forget the other, 48khz > > 1 x 19" large rectangular color unit, doesn't work. > > I'll be tossing these before very long. > How about specifying your geographic location? --===============6129302113010778607==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Jan 11 02:02:17 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: large HP monitors need home/s Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 02:01:46 +0000 Message-ID: <356061986.157771.1673402506072@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2489252098060033358==" --===============2489252098060033358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Waretown New Jersey. On Tuesday, January 10, 2023, 08:13:22 PM EST, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 5:07 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > 2 x 16" Trinitrons, missing rear plastic covers > > 1 is a 98789a 64hkz, forget the other, 48khz > > 1 x 19" large rectangular color unit, doesn't work. > > I'll be tossing these before very long. > How about specifying your geographic location? =20 --===============2489252098060033358==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Jan 11 02:13:20 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] old HP scope with SMA connectors Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 02:12:53 +0000 Message-ID: <1971274761.162417.1673403173415@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1971274761.162417.1673403173415.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0769554308799785259==" --===============0769554308799785259== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do I really need a torque spanner? Chinese spanners aren't expensive. But I'm= not sure the unit even works (the mainframe seems to work fine, not so sure = the ancillary test set). Hp 54120a + 54122a << iirc, maybe 54121a??? In any e= vent if working this is either a 12ghz or 20ghz setup.=20 --===============0769554308799785259==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Jan 11 06:10:57 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 13:55:21 -0500 Message-ID: <7141096c-6ef9-a027-f4ce-85091d442eb0@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7351345738913824820==" --===============7351345738913824820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It also looks like some of the console switches are broken. I think I'll=20 pass because of that... :-) C On 1/10/2023 12:18 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > Cool. The only thing I notice is that it doesn't seem to have enough cards > in it. I think a TC01 interface is an entire rack of cards for instance. > Still I'm tempted as I doubt I'll ever get a chance the wildly overspend on > a PDP-12. >=20 > Marc >=20 > On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 12:01 PM steve shumaker via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC Eight up for auction in Friedens, PA. >> >> https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage >> Currently has a single bid for $1.00.... They are even offering shipping! >> >> >> >> Visually looks to be in excellent shape >> >> >> https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext= =3D&w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwW= W3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs >> >> >> Steve >> --===============7351345738913824820==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Jan 11 06:11:20 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 18:57:41 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2013725149.5599682.1673372165256@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7023055790670742412==" --===============7023055790670742412== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also a box of linctape from the same auction https://hibid.com/lot/143159860/box-of-linctape-digital?ref=3Dcatalog Sent from my iPhone On Jan 10, 2023, at 09:36, ED SHARPE via cctalk wro= te: =EF=BB=BFAbsolutely gorgeous!Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC Eight up for auction in= Friedens, PA. https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage Currently has a single bid for $1.00.... They are even offering shipping! Visually looks to be in excellent shape https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=3D7750162854&wid=3D&rwl=3Dfalse&p=3D&ext=3D&= w=3D0&h=3D0&t=3D&lp=3D&c=3Dtrue&wt=3Dfalse&sz=3DMAX&checksum=3DdXJczRVCwWW3aM= 2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs Steve --===============7023055790670742412==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Jan 11 06:11:38 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 16:39:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9178844616773639336==" --===============9178844616773639336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/10/2023 3:31 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I think if I got the LINC I'd want to pick it up myself. > Bring something larger than a station wagon. I couldn't rescue the pdp12 because it simply would not. fit. Instead I saved the 8/I's, RK8, and FPP12 (the big one) because those were in 6 foot H960's. Ah the good old days --===============9178844616773639336==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Jan 11 06:11:56 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 18:23:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3877cf9b-1932-0579-52a7-cbfcee4152d1@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7877214645220228008==" --===============7877214645220228008== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of reading old floppies, I got my Model 100 and Tandy Portable=20 Disk Drive down from the shelf to read some old floppies I found from=20 the 1980's. 3.5 inch disks with a whopping 100k capacity each! Problem was drive was saying the disks were "not formatted". Took it=20 apart, found that the belt had literally turned to black goo and wrapped=20 itself around the capstain. Cleaned it off (took forever), then put on a=20 new modern belt that I use for TU58 Dectape II tapes. Fit, bit tight but=20 fit. Drive works great! And some of the stuff I wrote in the 1980's.... Old=20 posts to compuserve's pdp11 forum, ancient bitnet messages, stuff about=20 getting the pdp8/L and passing up other stuff... Could have bought a=20 Vax730 with R80/RL02 for 3k but didn't have the money. All in all a fun trip down memory lane. And I kept thinking "Was I=20 really that naive? C On 1/10/2023 6:18 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Yes, the 2/2P models I [think I] had were blue. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 2:21 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >>>> A few years later, I got a used ["Euro"]-Apple II, converted for USA >>>> use, in an OSI Challenger case (with wood (walnu?) sides), with an >>>> external RCA keyboard. >>>> If you didn't get it, then maybe Eric Smith? >> >> On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> Was it this style (Challenger 4P)? >>> >> https://imgs.search.brave.com/p_LUazpNEKMRJwuHl-uqgVmE7lVt1-7AodxQMTSCvOY/= rs:fit:400:326:1/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu/aXRoaXN0b3J5Lm9y/Zy9zaXRlcy9kZWZh/dWx0= L2ZpbGVzL2hh/cmR3YXJlL09oaW9D/aGFsbDRQMy5KUEc >>> I can't remember if I ever had a 4P but I did have I think two 2 or 2P >>> models. >>> Either way, I'm not sure if I got any from you, but in the end, if I did, >>> you know what happened. >>> I do still have a Challenger motherboard around here somewhere, as well >> as >>> I think an OSI of some model in a custom-built big-box style enclosure. >> >> Yes, it was that style, but BLUE >> No floppy unit. >> The external RCA keyboard was black, and a splash resistant case. >> --===============7877214645220228008==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jan 11 06:19:37 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 22:19:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3877cf9b-1932-0579-52a7-cbfcee4152d1@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6651246186274819416==" --===============6651246186274819416== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The "Tandy Portable Disk Drive" was a strange beast. At one time, some folk wrote software to run on PC to operate it. Otherwise, it's another flux transition project. OTOH, RS also had an external 5.25" box ("Disk/Video Interface"), which has a very simple MFM format, with the Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC file system (much like certain models of NEC machines) with some slight resemblance to the file system on the Coco. On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of reading old floppies, I got my Model 100 and Tandy Portable > Disk Drive down from the shelf to read some old floppies I found from > the 1980's. 3.5 inch disks with a whopping 100k capacity each! > > Problem was drive was saying the disks were "not formatted". Took it > apart, found that the belt had literally turned to black goo and wrapped > itself around the capstain. Cleaned it off (took forever), then put on a > new modern belt that I use for TU58 Dectape II tapes. Fit, bit tight but > fit. > > Drive works great! And some of the stuff I wrote in the 1980's.... Old > posts to compuserve's pdp11 forum, ancient bitnet messages, stuff about > getting the pdp8/L and passing up other stuff... Could have bought a > Vax730 with R80/RL02 for 3k but didn't have the money. > > All in all a fun trip down memory lane. And I kept thinking "Was I > really that naive? > > C --===============6651246186274819416==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jan 11 06:23:34 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 22:22:52 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3877cf9b-1932-0579-52a7-cbfcee4152d1@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6912153004855554143==" --===============6912153004855554143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had the same issue with one of those drives. I think I may have it but I need to source a belt to fix it. The black goop that used to be the belt got all over the mechanism. It was a pain to clean off completely. Sellam On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:11 PM Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Speaking of reading old floppies, I got my Model 100 and Tandy Portable > Disk Drive down from the shelf to read some old floppies I found from > the 1980's. 3.5 inch disks with a whopping 100k capacity each! > > Problem was drive was saying the disks were "not formatted". Took it > apart, found that the belt had literally turned to black goo and wrapped > itself around the capstain. Cleaned it off (took forever), then put on a > new modern belt that I use for TU58 Dectape II tapes. Fit, bit tight but > fit. > > Drive works great! And some of the stuff I wrote in the 1980's.... Old > posts to compuserve's pdp11 forum, ancient bitnet messages, stuff about > getting the pdp8/L and passing up other stuff... Could have bought a > Vax730 with R80/RL02 for 3k but didn't have the money. > > All in all a fun trip down memory lane. And I kept thinking "Was I > really that naive? > > C > > On 1/10/2023 6:18 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Yes, the 2/2P models I [think I] had were blue. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 2:21 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >>>> A few years later, I got a used ["Euro"]-Apple II, converted for USA > >>>> use, in an OSI Challenger case (with wood (walnu?) sides), with an > >>>> external RCA keyboard. > >>>> If you didn't get it, then maybe Eric Smith? > >> > >> On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > >>> Was it this style (Challenger 4P)? > >>> > >> > https://imgs.search.brave.com/p_LUazpNEKMRJwuHl-uqgVmE7lVt1-7AodxQMTSCvOY/r= s:fit:400:326:1/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu/aXRoaXN0b3J5Lm9y/Zy9zaXRlcy9kZWZh/dWx0L= 2ZpbGVzL2hh/cmR3YXJlL09oaW9D/aGFsbDRQMy5KUEc > >>> I can't remember if I ever had a 4P but I did have I think two 2 or 2P > >>> models. > >>> Either way, I'm not sure if I got any from you, but in the end, if I > did, > >>> you know what happened. > >>> I do still have a Challenger motherboard around here somewhere, as well > >> as > >>> I think an OSI of some model in a custom-built big-box style enclosure. > >> > >> Yes, it was that style, but BLUE > >> No floppy unit. > >> The external RCA keyboard was black, and a splash resistant case. > >> > --===============6912153004855554143==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jan 11 08:40:01 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 00:39:30 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <98d5e181-1a55-ccf9-2155-a1b88cef1be2@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3010274353651303563==" --===============3010274353651303563== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/10/23 15:24, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I haven't seen any mention of greaseweazel types of "flux" readers. > They read the flux changes off of the floppy and then interpret them > with a separate program. > Before the greaseweazel, and similar boards, there were the Catweasel > controllers, which are essentially the same thing, but done in an FPGA > with an ISA interface.  Even then, I kept telling people that most > microcontrollers with a capture-mode timer would do the job for a > fraction of the cost.   Personally, I've been using an STM32F407 with > my own software.   It produces catweasel-files and works with my own > code written for catweasel. I probably made it overly complicated, as it uses DMA to record the capture events.   At 168MHz on a pipelined architecture, I could have gone with polled I/O, but the deed is done. Even before the high-integration MCUs with everything but the kitchen sink, I was using an ATMega162 with external SRAM to do the sampling.   It's not brain surgery. Chuck --===============3010274353651303563==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Jan 11 17:57:45 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 09:16:20 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4518641983664747021==" --===============4518641983664747021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The belts that I use for TU58's work but are a bit on the tight side.=20 I'd say buy a set of those, and also a set that is is 1.5 times the size=20 and twice as wide. It's not that big of a deal, technically it may cause=20 a bit more stress to the sleeve bearings and cause them to wear out in=20 20 years as opposed to 50. Oh well :-) C On 1/11/2023 1:22 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I had the same issue with one of those drives. I think I may have it but I > need to source a belt to fix it. The black goop that used to be the belt > got all over the mechanism. It was a pain to clean off completely. >=20 > Sellam >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:11 PM Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> Speaking of reading old floppies, I got my Model 100 and Tandy Portable >> Disk Drive down from the shelf to read some old floppies I found from >> the 1980's. 3.5 inch disks with a whopping 100k capacity each! >> >> Problem was drive was saying the disks were "not formatted". Took it >> apart, found that the belt had literally turned to black goo and wrapped >> itself around the capstain. Cleaned it off (took forever), then put on a >> new modern belt that I use for TU58 Dectape II tapes. Fit, bit tight but >> fit. >> >> Drive works great! And some of the stuff I wrote in the 1980's.... Old >> posts to compuserve's pdp11 forum, ancient bitnet messages, stuff about >> getting the pdp8/L and passing up other stuff... Could have bought a >> Vax730 with R80/RL02 for 3k but didn't have the money. >> >> All in all a fun trip down memory lane. And I kept thinking "Was I >> really that naive? >> >> C >> >> On 1/10/2023 6:18 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> Yes, the 2/2P models I [think I] had were blue. >>> >>> Sellam >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 2:21 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>>> A few years later, I got a used ["Euro"]-Apple II, converted for USA >>>>>> use, in an OSI Challenger case (with wood (walnu?) sides), with an >>>>>> external RCA keyboard. >>>>>> If you didn't get it, then maybe Eric Smith? >>>> >>>> On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Was it this style (Challenger 4P)? >>>>> >>>> >> https://imgs.search.brave.com/p_LUazpNEKMRJwuHl-uqgVmE7lVt1-7AodxQMTSCvOY/= rs:fit:400:326:1/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu/aXRoaXN0b3J5Lm9y/Zy9zaXRlcy9kZWZh/dWx0= L2ZpbGVzL2hh/cmR3YXJlL09oaW9D/aGFsbDRQMy5KUEc >>>>> I can't remember if I ever had a 4P but I did have I think two 2 or 2P >>>>> models. >>>>> Either way, I'm not sure if I got any from you, but in the end, if I >> did, >>>>> you know what happened. >>>>> I do still have a Challenger motherboard around here somewhere, as well >>>> as >>>>> I think an OSI of some model in a custom-built big-box style enclosure. >>>> >>>> Yes, it was that style, but BLUE >>>> No floppy unit. >>>> The external RCA keyboard was black, and a splash resistant case. >>>> >> --===============4518641983664747021==-- From hush@dec.dog Thu Jan 12 01:04:28 2023 From: hush@dec.dog To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Gotek as RX50 replacement for DECmate II Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 19:58:54 -0500 Message-ID: <37381835-14c6-45a5-b2d3-441c4f4193aa@Canary> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8471818098026335317==" --===============8471818098026335317== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hello cctalk! i have been working for the past few days on a DECmate II with = what i believe to be an ailing RX50. i have a gotek with updated flashfloppy = firmware, but for some strange reason i have been completely unable to get th= e DMII to boot a floppy image from it. i have been trying to convert the OS/278 and WPS images on the dbit and ibibl= io archives into a working format for the gotek but none of them will work. a= t this point i have tried too many conversions to recall but they all result = in the same blinking floppy icon when the unit boots. i have =E2=80=9Chost = =3D dec=E2=80=9D in my FF.CFG per the wiki. has anyone else been able to get this working? if so, could you please provid= e known-good images for a gotek, or the steps to generate them? thank you in advance! =E2=80=94 .hush Got interesting stuff to sell? Let me know! Looking for DEC, IBM, CDC, SGI, Data General, and more! --===============8471818098026335317==-- From matt@9track.net Thu Jan 12 01:47:21 2023 From: Matt Burke To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gotek as RX50 replacement for DECmate II Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2023 01:29:40 +0000 Message-ID: <9260ad35-7d50-81cc-3d2f-ff8aa7c6dfef@9track.net> In-Reply-To: <37381835-14c6-45a5-b2d3-441c4f4193aa@Canary> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8401280630279228408==" --===============8401280630279228408== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/01/2023 00:58, hush(a)dec.dog via cctalk wrote: > hello cctalk! i have been working for the past few days on a DECmate II wit= h what i believe to be an ailing RX50. i have a gotek with updated flashflopp= y firmware, but for some strange reason i have been completely unable to get = the DMII to boot a floppy image from it. > > i have been trying to convert the OS/278 and WPS images on the dbit and ibi= blio archives into a working format for the gotek but none of them will work.= at this point i have tried too many conversions to recall but they all resul= t in the same blinking floppy icon when the unit boots. i have =E2=80=9Chost = =3D dec=E2=80=9D in my FF.CFG per the wiki. > > has anyone else been able to get this working? if so, could you please prov= ide known-good images for a gotek, or the steps to generate them? > I've used a Gotek (semi-successfully) with the DEC Rainbow using raw image files and the following lines in ff.cfg: host =3D dec pin02 =3D low pin34 =3D rdy The image file format should not be important though you may run into problems with sector ordering depending on how the source image was created. It was the pin02 and pin34 lines that got it working for the Rainbow. Matt --===============8401280630279228408==-- From hush@dec.dog Thu Jan 12 03:14:36 2023 From: hush@dec.dog To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gotek as RX50 replacement for DECmate II Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 22:14:07 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9260ad35-7d50-81cc-3d2f-ff8aa7c6dfef@9track.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4717704846239574961==" --===============4717704846239574961== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable appreciate the reply, Matt! unfortunately it doesn=E2=80=99t seem that that d= id the trick, another round of feeding it disk images and it still doesn=E2= =80=99t want to boot. i tried the block and sector RX50 images on the dbit[.]com archive both as-is= and converted to IBM MFM raw and HxC formats, and the teledisk images on ibi= blio[.]org converted to the same. my img.cfg: [rx50] cyls =3D 80 heads =3D 1 secs =3D 10 interleave =3D 2 bps =3D 512 id =3D 1 rpm =3D 300 rate =3D 250 mode =3D mfm iam =3D no should i start suspecting my gotek (or worse, the system board) or is it stil= l possible that i=E2=80=99m at fault? =E2=80=94 .hush Got interesting stuff to sell? Let me know! Looking for DEC, IBM, CDC, SGI, Data General, and more! > On Wednesday, Jan 11, 2023 at 8:47 PM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > On 12/01/2023 00:58, hush(a)dec.dog via cctalk wrote: > > hello cctalk! i have been working for the past few days on a DECmate II w= ith what i believe to be an ailing RX50. i have a gotek with updated flashflo= ppy firmware, but for some strange reason i have been completely unable to ge= t the DMII to boot a floppy image from it. > > > > i have been trying to convert the OS/278 and WPS images on the dbit and i= biblio archives into a working format for the gotek but none of them will wor= k. at this point i have tried too many conversions to recall but they all res= ult in the same blinking floppy icon when the unit boots. i have =E2=80=9Chos= t =3D dec=E2=80=9D in my FF.CFG per the wiki. > > > > has anyone else been able to get this working? if so, could you please pr= ovide known-good images for a gotek, or the steps to generate them? > > > > I've used a Gotek (semi-successfully) with the DEC Rainbow using raw > image files and the following lines in ff.cfg: > > host =3D dec > pin02 =3D low > pin34 =3D rdy > > The image file format should not be important though you may run into > problems with sector ordering depending on how the source image was > created. It was the pin02 and pin34 lines that got it working for the > Rainbow. > > Matt --===============4717704846239574961==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Thu Jan 12 03:53:05 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gotek as RX50 replacement for DECmate II Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 20:52:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5574390767836248564==" --===============5574390767836248564== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jan 11, 2023 at 8:14 PM hush(a)dec.dog via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > appreciate the reply, Matt! unfortunately it doesn’t seem that that did > the trick, another round of feeding it disk images and it still doesn’t > want to boot. > > i tried the block and sector RX50 images on the dbit[.]com archive both > as-is and converted to IBM MFM raw and HxC formats, and the teledisk images > on ibiblio[.]org converted to the same. > > my img.cfg: > > [rx50] > cyls = 80 > heads = 1 > secs = 10 > interleave = 2 > bps = 512 > id = 1 > rpm = 300 > rate = 250 > mode = mfm > iam = no > > should i start suspecting my gotek (or worse, the system board) or is it > still possible that i’m at fault? > I don't think you want the interleave. At least for the Rainbow and the Pro they did do an interleave of 2, but it was done at the logical level, not the physical level (which is confusing). So, if the images are physical images (that is, they record the physical sector numbers that are on the media), then you don't need it. If the images are logical (so some or all of the tracks have the interleave applied), then you will need it. Also, I think should be 0. Unlike the PC, where 1 and 0 are flipped by a cable (you have a straight through cable, right?), the top RX-50 is ID 0 and the bottom is ID 1. Warner > — > .hush > Got interesting stuff to sell? Let me know! > Looking for DEC, IBM, CDC, SGI, Data General, and more! > > > On Wednesday, Jan 11, 2023 at 8:47 PM, Matt Burke via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org (mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org)> wrote: > > On 12/01/2023 00:58, hush(a)dec.dog via cctalk wrote: > > > hello cctalk! i have been working for the past few days on a DECmate > II with what i believe to be an ailing RX50. i have a gotek with updated > flashfloppy firmware, but for some strange reason i have been completely > unable to get the DMII to boot a floppy image from it. > > > > > > i have been trying to convert the OS/278 and WPS images on the dbit > and ibiblio archives into a working format for the gotek but none of them > will work. at this point i have tried too many conversions to recall but > they all result in the same blinking floppy icon when the unit boots. i > have “host = dec” in my FF.CFG per the wiki. > > > > > > has anyone else been able to get this working? if so, could you please > provide known-good images for a gotek, or the steps to generate them? > > > > > > > I've used a Gotek (semi-successfully) with the DEC Rainbow using raw > > image files and the following lines in ff.cfg: > > > > host = dec > > pin02 = low > > pin34 = rdy > > > > The image file format should not be important though you may run into > > problems with sector ordering depending on how the source image was > > created. It was the pin02 and pin34 lines that got it working for the > > Rainbow. > > > > Matt > --===============5574390767836248564==-- From hush@dec.dog Thu Jan 12 04:30:16 2023 From: hush@dec.dog To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Gotek as RX50 replacement for DECmate II Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 23:29:40 -0500 Message-ID: <29b3bc4b-4e7f-46ec-96d5-8d67f0880a19@Canary> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8507282052615196346==" --===============8507282052615196346== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable still no luck there unfortunately, i disabled interleaving and changed the id= to 0 as well, it still does not want to boot. the cable i=E2=80=99m using is= straight through though, i=E2=80=99m using the cable the came with the unit = originally. i have another on the way just in case but since this cable is pr= etty hefty, i wouldn=E2=80=99t suspect that it=E2=80=99s damaged. at this point i have to wonder, what the chances are that my floppy controlle= r is dead? if anyone in/around the columbia, MD area has a working RX50 (or o= ther 5.25=E2=80=9D drive, if the DMII will take it) they can lend and the abi= lity to prep some 5.25=E2=80=9D floppies for me feel free to reach out off-li= st, i unfortunately do not have any working 5.25=E2=80=9D drives lying around= at the moment and the weekend is fast approaching. =E2=80=94 .hush Got interesting stuff to sell? Let me know! Looking for DEC, IBM, CDC, SGI, Data General, and more! > On Wednesday, Jan 11, 2023 at 10:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2023 at 8:14 PM hush(a)dec.dog via cctalk wrote: > > appreciate the reply, Matt! unfortunately it doesn=E2=80=99t seem that th= at did the trick, another round of feeding it disk images and it still doesn= =E2=80=99t want to boot. > > > > i tried the block and sector RX50 images on the dbit[.]com archive both a= s-is and converted to IBM MFM raw and HxC formats, and the teledisk images on= ibiblio[.]org converted to the same. > > > > my img.cfg: > > > > [rx50] > > cyls =3D 80 > > heads =3D 1 > > secs =3D 10 > > interleave =3D 2 > > bps =3D 512 > > id =3D 1 > > rpm =3D 300 > > rate =3D 250 > > mode =3D mfm > > iam =3D no > > > > should i start suspecting my gotek (or worse, the system board) or is it = still possible that i=E2=80=99m at fault? > > I don't think you want the interleave. At least for the Rainbow and the Pro= they did do an interleave of 2, but it was done at the logical level, not th= e physical level (which is confusing). So, if the images are physical images = (that is, they record the physical sector numbers that are on the media), the= n you don't need it. If the images are logical (so some or all of the tracks = have the interleave applied), then you will need it. > > Also, I think should be 0. Unlike the PC, where 1 and 0 are flipped by a ca= ble (you have a straight through cable, right?), the top RX-50 is ID 0 and th= e bottom is ID 1. > > Warner > > =E2=80=94 > > .hush > > Got interesting stuff to sell? Let me know! > > Looking for DEC, IBM, CDC, SGI, Data General, and more! > > > > > On Wednesday, Jan 11, 2023 at 8:47 PM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/01/2023 00:58, hush(a)dec.dog via cctalk wrote: > > > > hello cctalk! i have been working for the past few days on a DECmate = II with what i believe to be an ailing RX50. i have a gotek with updated flas= hfloppy firmware, but for some strange reason i have been completely unable t= o get the DMII to boot a floppy image from it. > > > > > > > > i have been trying to convert the OS/278 and WPS images on the dbit a= nd ibiblio archives into a working format for the gotek but none of them will= work. at this point i have tried too many conversions to recall but they all= result in the same blinking floppy icon when the unit boots. i have =E2=80= =9Chost =3D dec=E2=80=9D in my FF.CFG per the wiki. > > > > > > > > has anyone else been able to get this working? if so, could you pleas= e provide known-good images for a gotek, or the steps to generate them? > > > > > > > > > > I've used a Gotek (semi-successfully) with the DEC Rainbow using raw > > > image files and the following lines in ff.cfg: > > > > > > host =3D dec > > > pin02 =3D low > > > pin34 =3D rdy > > > > > > The image file format should not be important though you may run into > > > problems with sector ordering depending on how the source image was > > > created. It was the pin02 and pin34 lines that got it working for the > > > Rainbow. > > > > > > Matt --===============8507282052615196346==-- From tarnalcock@icloud.com Thu Jan 12 06:11:52 2023 From: Tarn Alcock To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 23:58:26 +0000 Message-ID: <5713537C-B044-431E-AC1B-B8AE02EABDF8@icloud.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4293658863851762002==" --===============4293658863851762002== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For cleaning and maintaining floppies give shadowtronblog on YouTube a watch.= He lovingly restores various vintage equipment. There are a few vids of him = restoring some floppies, cleaning heads, greasing mechanical bits etc. I thin= k his TRS80 playlist had a fair bit of that in IIRC. --===============4293658863851762002==-- From bkr@WildHareComputers.com Sat Jan 14 19:02:17 2023 From: Bruce Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP-11/40 for sale in New Zealand Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2023 12:03:51 -0700 Message-ID: <39a1910a-0221-e0fc-89e5-ae9a9534b252@WildHareComputers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3638054002191493953==" --===============3638054002191493953== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A friend has a PDP-11/40 for sale in New Zealand and sent me the following information: "I have a PDP11/40 for sale. It includes three (3) x RK05’s in various states of repair, one (1) tape unit, one (1) A/D unit, spare parts of unknown status, lots of disk packs, tapes and what looks like all of the circuit diagrams for every card and peripheral in the machine, plus RSK-11 manuals, some cobol manuals etc. It was formerly used in the Wellington Hospital diagnostic lab, presumably hooked up to some Lab machines there. Note that it is 230v 50hz, so while the CPU may be easily changed to your local voltage (I don’t know but I suspect it’s a transformer tap) the disk spindles are likely to rotate at the incorrect speed if they are clocked off the 50hz mains frequency. The racks have been split to make it easy(er) to get out of the its original location in a basement, and there is tape on the panels just for shipping purposes. I removed the front panel for shipping to prevent any damage, so it’s just installed temporarily for the photos. They will be wrap separately in place in a box for shipping. You can check out photo’s here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fcldk7rekg6sbq3/AADeCjVHhz2YNr1CVxZK5JKZa?dl=0 This system will take time and patience to restore. As far as I can tell everything is there, well maybe some of the disks have been ratted for parts to get another disk working, but of course it comes with no guarantees of any kind. There are 8 cards in the CPU slots, plus five other cards that I assumed to be tape controller, disk controller, A/D controller, plus memory x 2 or memory x 1 plus something else. Keep in mind that all of the manuals, disk packs, tapes etc are boxed up on a second pallet so there are two pallets for shipment." Contact Brendan McNeill, Christchurch, New Zealand. at brendan(a)mcneill.co.nz (I have no financial or other interest in this system, but would like to see it go to a good home...) Bruce -- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org --===============3638054002191493953==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Mon Jan 16 10:14:57 2023 From: p.gebhardt@ymail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Disk pack production tools Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 10:14:17 +0000 Message-ID: <631933362.2873868.1673864057401@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <631933362.2873868.1673864057401.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5596306633113488895==" --===============5596306633113488895== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello list,=20 Yesterday, I was wondering, if there are any multiplatter disk pack productio= n tools known to exist?=20 There are disk pack inspection and cleaning tools in the wild (also one on eB= ay for a ridiculously high price) and occasionally, I also saw unused and ori= ginally packed disk platters for sale, but these are, to my limited knowledge= , worthless if the production and platter alignment tools are missing.=20 I remember vaguely somebody writing on this list years ago that some last sys= tems were tossed by some company in California. But disk packs were also prod= uced on the European continent and in for instance in Bulgaria(ISOT) for comp= uter disk drives in the federal republic of Germany and the Soviet Union.=20 I was just wondering about this since it is getting more and more difficult t= o come across disk packs provided that spare unused platters arw available. T= he (9)877 for the CDC SMD 80MB drives 9762 and OEMs seemed to have been fairl= y wide-spread and these still show up from time to time for offer. But the 30= 0MB packs for the CDC 9766 are rare now. Older drives are close to unobtainiu= m. I never came across a five-platter pack for my CDC 854 drive and i have ne= ver seen packs for my MMD 844 or my CDC BC3xx disk drive for 200MB disk packs= .=20 The question will rise what I wanna do with these. I have a working 9762 driv= e and some day, I would like to try to restore the other ones I have. For the= SMD drives, I have spare heads and alignment tools and a disk pack cleaner. = I don't intend to run them for hours because I don't have a clean room enviro= nment that is appropriate to the specs of these drives. I just love these pie= ces of storage technology and it would be great to at least have one pack for= the drives that are missing one.=20 Any thoughts from the disk experts would be greatly appreciated :) Greetings, Pierre -----------------------------------------------------------------------------= http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============5596306633113488895==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Mon Jan 16 10:58:14 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fw: Disk pack production tools Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 10:57:38 +0000 Message-ID: <1997363940.2965989.1673866658563@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <631933362.2873868.1673864057401@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1275130200652257022==" --===============1275130200652257022== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >now. Older drives are close to unobtainium. I never came across a five-platt= er pack for my CDC 854 drive and i have never seen packs for my MMD 844 or my= CDC BC3xx disk=20 >drive for 200MB disk packs.=20 Little correction: It's a CDC 844 Multiple Disk Drive, not a 841. Greetings, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============1275130200652257022==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Mon Jan 16 15:26:42 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 10:26:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <631933362.2873868.1673864057401@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3906085578706307796==" --===============3906085578706307796== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I bought RK05 packs from Althea (sp?). I know they make diskettes too. Trying to locate their web site so I must be spelling it wrong :-) Bill On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 5:14 AM p.gebhardt--- via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello list, > > Yesterday, I was wondering, if there are any multiplatter disk pack > production tools known to exist? > There are disk pack inspection and cleaning tools in the wild (also one on > eBay for a ridiculously high price) and occasionally, I also saw unused and > originally packed disk platters for sale, but these are, to my limited > knowledge, worthless if the production and platter alignment tools are > missing. > I remember vaguely somebody writing on this list years ago that some last > systems were tossed by some company in California. But disk packs were also > produced on the European continent and in for instance in Bulgaria(ISOT) > for computer disk drives in the federal republic of Germany and the Soviet > Union. > I was just wondering about this since it is getting more and more > difficult to come across disk packs provided that spare unused platters arw > available. The (9)877 for the CDC SMD 80MB drives 9762 and OEMs seemed to > have been fairly wide-spread and these still show up from time to time for > offer. But the 300MB packs for the CDC 9766 are rare now. Older drives are > close to unobtainium. I never came across a five-platter pack for my CDC > 854 drive and i have never seen packs for my MMD 844 or my CDC BC3xx disk > drive for 200MB disk packs. > The question will rise what I wanna do with these. I have a working 9762 > drive and some day, I would like to try to restore the other ones I have. > For the SMD drives, I have spare heads and alignment tools and a disk pack > cleaner. I don't intend to run them for hours because I don't have a clean > room environment that is appropriate to the specs of these drives. I just > love these pieces of storage technology and it would be great to at least > have one pack for the drives that are missing one. > Any thoughts from the disk experts would be greatly appreciated :) > > Greetings, > Pierre > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de > --===============3906085578706307796==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Mon Jan 16 16:31:09 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 08:30:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4796307725852053880==" --===============4796307725852053880== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I bought RK05 packs from Althea (sp?). I know they make diskettes too. > Trying to locate their web site so I must be spelling it wrong :-) I think you're referring to Athana. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============4796307725852053880==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Mon Jan 16 16:55:39 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 10:54:56 -0600 Message-ID: <06ce61cb-795e-9452-9e63-ac2a4a7ebe28@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <631933362.2873868.1673864057401@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6364522312822357955==" --===============6364522312822357955== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/16/23 04:14, p.gebhardt--- via cctalk wrote: > Hello list, > > Yesterday, I was wondering, if there are any multiplatter disk pack product= ion tools known to exist? > There are disk pack inspection and cleaning tools in the wild (also one on = eBay for a ridiculously high price) and occasionally, I also saw unused and o= riginally packed disk platters for sale, but these are, to my limited knowled= ge, worthless if the production and platter alignment tools are missing. Washington University had a magnetic media lab at one time,=20 and got several semi loads of gear from an IBM lab.=C2=A0 There=20 were air bearing spindle tables and many racks of IBM=20 circuitry based on MST chip technology.=C2=A0 I assume some of=20 this could have been used as servo track writers.=C2=A0 Any=20 system that doesn't have a dedicated servo surface or=20 embedded servo info doesn't need a servo track writer, it=20 can just format the pack by itself (with proper diagnostic=20 programs, of course.) Aligning the heads on the drive is an issue only if you want=20 to interchange platters.=C2=A0 Then, you need an alignment pack -=20 wow, those would be quite hard to find today!=C2=A0 There are=20 tools like alignment meters that can make the job easier,=20 but really all you need is a scope and generally a rod with=20 an eccentric tip to adjust the head position. Jon --===============6364522312822357955==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jan 16 16:58:05 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 08:47:58 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <631933362.2873868.1673864057401@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6306579990304663954==" --===============6306579990304663954== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/16/23 02:14, p.gebhardt--- via cctalk wrote: > Hello list,=20 > > Yesterday, I was wondering, if there are any multiplatter disk pack product= ion tools known to exist?=20 > There are disk pack inspection and cleaning tools in the wild (also one on = eBay for a ridiculously high price) and occasionally, I also saw unused and o= riginally packed disk platters for sale, but these are, to my limited knowled= ge, worthless if the production and platter alignment tools are missing.=20 > I remember vaguely somebody writing on this list years ago that some last s= ystems were tossed by some company in California. But disk packs were also pr= oduced on the European continent and in for instance in Bulgaria(ISOT) for co= mputer disk drives in the federal republic of Germany and the Soviet Union.=20 > I was just wondering about this since it is getting more and more difficult= to come across disk packs provided that spare unused platters arw available.= The (9)877 for the CDC SMD 80MB drives 9762 and OEMs seemed to have been fai= rly wide-spread and these still show up from time to time for offer. But the = 300MB packs for the CDC 9766 are rare now. Older drives are close to unobtain= ium. I never came across a five-platter pack for my CDC 854 drive and i have = never seen packs for my MMD 844 or my CDC BC3xx disk drive for 200MB disk pac= ks.=20 > The question will rise what I wanna do with these. I have a working 9762 dr= ive and some day, I would like to try to restore the other ones I have. For t= he SMD drives, I have spare heads and alignment tools and a disk pack cleaner= . I don't intend to run them for hours because I don't have a clean room envi= ronment that is appropriate to the specs of these drives. I just love these p= ieces of storage technology and it would be great to at least have one pack f= or the drives that are missing one.=20 > Any thoughts from the disk experts would be greatly appreciated :) The 844 drives date from the early 70s.=C2=A0 I worked for CDC on a military project where these were brought in to replace the 821s that were bid (yes, I know there's no information on those--they're essentially a high-capacity unit build on an 808 chassis and unreliable as hell).=C2=A0 A typical installation might have used over 100 of the units on a 4-CPU Cyber cluster.=C2=A0 They worked well, unless one got a bad pack, which would clobber the heads on a drive; using the drive on a new pack would result in creating another head-clobbering pack.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I recall an overnight r= eport issued by an operator where he succeeded in trashing several packs and multiple drives in his attempt to get something to work.=C2=A0 It was a blow-by-blow report somewhat akin to the Gerard Hoffnung bricklayer story. Can't tell you more about the mechanics of the things--I haven't seen one of these in many many years.=C2=A0=C2=A0 They were the workhorse drive fo= r CDC large systems for quite some time.=C2=A0 We used them on the STAR-100, for example. All the best, Chuck --===============6306579990304663954==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Mon Jan 16 19:29:55 2023 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] I need to make some space... Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 14:28:34 -0500 Message-ID: <11cc01d929e0$b9ca3430$2d5e9c90$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <11cc01d929e0$b9ca3430$2d5e9c90$.ref@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0130933000140447433==" --===============0130933000140447433== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not getting rid of my whole collection or anything, but things are getting a little tight in terms of physical space and I have stuff that simply doesn't keep my interest. I'd rather not do ebay so I'll offer them here first. I will put up pictures if there is interest. None of this is "barn stored". It has all been in my temperature controlled house since last century. 1) HP series 100 (the 150 and 150 touchscreen II) documentation. This could be described as the "grey wall" for the HP 150. All the basic books plus Wordstar, Spellstar, Multiplan, etc.etc. At least 20 "boxed books". Many (I think all but have not checked yet) have original diskettes. HP-150 with built in printer to come when I get back to it. 2) IBM PC original "boxed books" a) "DOS" part number 6024001 on spine. I would call the condition excellent. Two original 5.25 diskettes: DIAGNOSTICS Version 1.02 6081552. DOS Version 1.00 6172212 (I'm tempted to keep this because of the CP/M -vs- DOS controversy) b) "DOS" part number 6024001 on spine with round sticker "1.10 with Graphics". I would call the condition very good. One original 5.25 diskette: DOS Version 1.10 1502330 c) Four UCSD p-System books: Beginner's guide, Assembler reference, Internal Architecture Guide, User's guide. The "User's guide" box contains five original 5.25 diskettes: STARTUP, SYSTEM 2, SYSTEM 4, EXTRAS and UTILITIES. 3) IBM FORTRAN-77 Reference for the UCSD p-System "boxed book". Contains one original 5.25 diskette: UCSD p-System FORTRAN Version IV.0 6936510 4) IBM COBOL Compiler by Microsoft "boxed book". Contains two original 5.25 diskettes: LIBRARY 6936566, COBOL 6172250 5) Various other original IBM PC "boxed books". Document Retrieval Assistant, 3101 Emulation, Dow Jones Reporter, SNA 3270, etc. etc. Maybe a dozen. 6) The box and binder for "Guide to operations, Personal Computer XT". Unfortunately, it does not contain this. Instead it contains "The CP/M and IBM Public Domain Library" by Dynacomp. This all seems to be later CP/M, running on the IBM PC or Kaypro. Just documentation and listings, no media. 7) IBM Graphics Development Toolkit "boxed book". Three original 5.25 diskettes: VDI device drivers, Language Libraries, Supplemental Programs. 8) BASIC - Personal Computer - PCjr "boxed book". Contains original ROM Cartridge "Cartridge BASIC" 1302285. (Maybe this should go with the PCjr I will be offering when I dig it out) 9) ERGO MOBY BRICK 486DX-33 computer. Missing original power supply. I cobbled together a supply last century some time and it worked then. Has not been powered on in at least 25 years. 10) Osbone Executive. Limited Edition, personalized plaque to "ANNETTE KING". It ran last century. Has not been powered on in at least 25 years. More to come. Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============0130933000140447433==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jan 16 20:32:33 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 15:32:03 -0500 Message-ID: <6A8449D2-72FF-4AD6-964C-CDADBDCB65AA@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <06ce61cb-795e-9452-9e63-ac2a4a7ebe28@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3501008967699736408==" --===============3501008967699736408== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 16, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 1/16/23 04:14, p.gebhardt--- via cctalk wrote: >> Hello list, >>=20 >> Yesterday, I was wondering, if there are any multiplatter disk pack produc= tion tools known to exist? >> There are disk pack inspection and cleaning tools in the wild (also one on= eBay for a ridiculously high price) and occasionally, I also saw unused and = originally packed disk platters for sale, but these are, to my limited knowle= dge, worthless if the production and platter alignment tools are missing. >=20 > Washington University had a magnetic media lab at one time, and got several= semi loads of gear from an IBM lab. There were air bearing spindle tables a= nd many racks of IBM circuitry based on MST chip technology. I assume some o= f this could have been used as servo track writers. Any system that doesn't = have a dedicated servo surface or embedded servo info doesn't need a servo tr= ack writer, it can just format the pack by itself (with proper diagnostic pro= grams, of course.) There are a few other odd cases. Fixed head drives might have a timing track= ; the DEC RS64 and RF11 do. For those, if you replace the platter you have t= o rewrite the timing track, which requires a specialized device. I've seen i= t done on an RF11 that was pretty much rebuilt from the base plate upward. T= he special tools needed -- alignment disk and timing writer -- had to be sent= over from Maynard, they were not standard field service equipment. The docu= mentation was pretty minimal, but our FS tech was really good and had no trou= ble figuring it out. I think it was the first time he did one of these jobs. paul --===============3501008967699736408==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jan 16 20:40:35 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 15:40:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8786038779527921113==" --===============8786038779527921113== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 16, 2023, at 11:47 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The 844 drives date from the early 70s. ... >=20 > Can't tell you more about the mechanics of the things--I haven't seen > one of these in many many years. They were the workhorse drive for CDC > large systems for quite some time. We used them on the STAR-100, for > example. On the CERL PLATO system at U of Illinois, around 1977, we had 20-ish 844-21 = drives, and maybe a few 844-41 as well. Those were roughly the same as the D= EC RP04 and RP05 drives, same pack and track count. Different sectors, thoug= h; 322 12-bit words per sector. Those are 3600 rpm drives, linear voice coil head actuator, dedicated servo s= urface. The details of the format was handled in a sort of microcoded bit ha= ndling engine, one of two engines in the programmable controller (7054). I a= ctually have the source code still around, and the manual for that beast also= still exists. My favorite for wild mechanics is the IBM 1311 we had on an IBM 1629 Mod II. = Those have hydraulic actuators, 100 cylinders. In the controller, the subtr= actor that would tell the machinery how many cylinders there are between the = current one and the requested one was an optional feature ("direct seek optio= n") which we didn't have. Without the option, all seeks would be done by ret= racting all the way to cylinder zero, then back out again the number of cylin= ders corresponding to what the program asked for. You could really make the = drive shake by feeding it a simple program that stepped through the cylinders= ; near the end of the loop it would spend a significant fraction of a second = getting from, say, track 98 to 99. paul --===============8786038779527921113==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 00:20:39 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 16:20:09 -0800 Message-ID: <022a73be-b537-6102-ecfd-66b123a13ba6@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3502061724964632658==" --===============3502061724964632658== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/16/23 12:40, Paul Koning wrote: > On the CERL PLATO system at U of Illinois, around 1977, we had 20-ish > 844-21 drives, and maybe a few 844-41 as well. Those were roughly the > same as the DEC RP04 and RP05 drives, same pack and track count. > Different sectors, though; 322 12-bit words per sector. Those are 3600 > rpm drives, linear voice coil head actuator, dedicated servo surface. > The details of the format was handled in a sort of microcoded bit > handling engine, one of two engines in the programmable controller > (7054). I actually have the source code still around, and the manual > for that beast also still exists.    Most of our customers from that time had all of the drive farm as well as the unit record equipment on MACs.  (Predates Apple--Multiple Access Controller).  We kept Spence Preston busy... : We had a 1311 on a CADET.  Slow, but better than the alternatives (cards or paper tape).  Monitor IID, IIRC.   Work cylinders were 0-25, IIRC.  No real file system, just DIM entries. I don't recall what options had to be installed on a CADET to run Monitor, but I think indirect addressing was a requirement. My favorite was the CDC 6603/Bryant 4000.  That bugger was engineered to leak oil--it even had plastic jugs inside to collect the drippings.  My fondest memory was watching a COMSOURCE operator run to refill a 501 printer, hitting the Bryant oil patch and falling flat on his back... --Chuck --===============3502061724964632658==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Tue Jan 17 00:51:15 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 16:50:48 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5590531231987741343==" --===============5590531231987741343== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a strange one. I have a bunch of CD sleeves like this, that I used t= o use. https://www.amazon.com/Mediaxpo-Double-sided-Refill-Sleeve-Holder/dp/B002ROAI= C2/ref=3Dsr_1_16?crid=3D2IDUIGLI7EY9I I=E2=80=99m trying to recover data from a Verbatim DataLifePlus CD, and when = I started looking at it, I noticed that it has a cross hatch/herringbone patt= ern on it. Has anyone run across anything like this? At first I was hoping to simply wa= sh it, as it seemed like that might be possible. I tried to wash it multiple= times, and while it seems a little better, it=E2=80=99s still not clean, and= I think that it might actually be etched into the surface, due to a chemical= reaction.=20 Thankfully Toast 14=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CUse Data Recovery=E2=80=9D option was = able to recover the data, and image the CD-R. Another problem I=E2=80=99ve found is that you need to use a Mac running a ve= rsion of MacOS prior to 10.15 if you have HFS formatted CD=E2=80=99s. I boug= ht a nice external drive, since my DVD-RW drive in my 2010 Mac Pro died, plan= ning to use it on my MacBook Pro, only to discover that MacOS 12 wouldn=E2=80= =99t read most of my CD=E2=80=99s. You can=E2=80=99t even do a =E2=80=98dd i= f=3D/dev/disk5 of=3Dtest.iso=E2=80=99, as they appear to have broken basic UN= IX functionality. Zane --===============5590531231987741343==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 00:54:32 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 18:53:56 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4064868582991536337==" --===============4064868582991536337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yup. I've seen the same with many of the CD holders I bought from CompUSA. Lots of CDs/DVDs we burned and stored were unreadable after a few years despite never being removed. Some blame is the CD/DVD quality and holes in the unprotected label but definitely scratches. On Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 6:50 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > This is a strange one. I have a bunch of CD sleeves like this, that I > used to use. > > > https://www.amazon.com/Mediaxpo-Double-sided-Refill-Sleeve-Holder/dp/B002RO= AIC2/ref=3Dsr_1_16?crid=3D2IDUIGLI7EY9I > > I=E2=80=99m trying to recover data from a Verbatim DataLifePlus CD, and whe= n I > started looking at it, I noticed that it has a cross hatch/herringbone > pattern on it. > > Has anyone run across anything like this? At first I was hoping to simply > wash it, as it seemed like that might be possible. I tried to wash it > multiple times, and while it seems a little better, it=E2=80=99s still not = clean, > and I think that it might actually be etched into the surface, due to a > chemical reaction. > > Thankfully Toast 14=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CUse Data Recovery=E2=80=9D option wa= s able to recover the > data, and image the CD-R. > > Another problem I=E2=80=99ve found is that you need to use a Mac running a = version > of MacOS prior to 10.15 if you have HFS formatted CD=E2=80=99s. I bought a= nice > external drive, since my DVD-RW drive in my 2010 Mac Pro died, planning to > use it on my MacBook Pro, only to discover that MacOS 12 wouldn=E2=80=99t r= ead most > of my CD=E2=80=99s. You can=E2=80=99t even do a =E2=80=98dd if=3D/dev/disk= 5 of=3Dtest.iso=E2=80=99, as they > appear to have broken basic UNIX functionality. > > Zane > > > > > --===============4064868582991536337==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 01:11:38 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 01:11:11 +0000 Message-ID: <645253400.1893430.1673917871163@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1022121862331904380==" --===============1022121862331904380== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Been there. Seen it. It seems paper or tyvek is the way to store these thing= s. But the question is in 2023 why are you still committing data to optical medi= a? I dumped all my cds and dvds on to magnetic storage years ago. I got burne= d waiting as long as I did even. Some of the old spinning cd cleaner/restorers used an abrasive slurry. The la= st one I bought (Onn) only has a cleaner afaik. You'll want to clean the disk= s thoroughly. Then try a "cleaning" solution that's more aggressive. My old c= d cleaner would leave circular scratches on the disk. But it was readable aft= er that. In 1 instance (then I lost it). Such an approach should be a last re= sort though. Don't just rely on Mac/Windoze facilities for reading stubborn disks. There a= re programs that work better if you search. =20 --===============1022121862331904380==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Tue Jan 17 01:40:47 2023 From: wh.sudbrink@verizon.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: I need to make some space... Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 01:40:22 +0000 Message-ID: <517269315.2287364.1673919622150@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <63C5BB5B.7030502@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8955379748546142211==" --===============8955379748546142211== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're quite right. I'm in Maryland, near Washington, DC. As to prices, I'm = looking for best offer. Preference to local pick up.=C2=A0 Things, like the H= P-150 docs, may become "free to a good home for shipping". By the way, I don'= t need any more emails telling me how valuable the DOS 1.0 is. I get it. Bill S. On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 04:07:21 PM EST, js(a)cimmeri.com wrote: =20 =20 =20 Location??=C2=A0 Prices?? or Free? On 1/16/2023 2:28 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > I'm not getting rid of my whole collection or anything, but things are > getting a little tight in terms of physical space and I have stuff that > simply doesn't keep my interest.=C2=A0 I'd rather not do ebay so I'll offer= them > here first.=C2=A0 I will put up pictures if there is interest.=C2=A0 None o= f this is > "barn stored".=C2=A0 It has all been in my temperature controlled house sin= ce > last century. > > > > 1)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 HP series 100 (the 150 and 150 touchscreen II) docum= entation.=C2=A0 This > could be described as the "grey wall" for the HP 150.=C2=A0 All the basic b= ooks > plus Wordstar, Spellstar, Multiplan, etc.etc.=C2=A0 At least 20 "boxed book= s". > Many (I think all but have not checked yet) have original diskettes.=C2=A0 = HP-150 > with built in printer to come when I get back to it. > > 2)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBM PC original "boxed books" > > a) "DOS" part number 6024001 on spine.=C2=A0 I would call the condition > excellent.=C2=A0 Two original 5.25 diskettes:=C2=A0 DIAGNOSTICS Version 1.0= 2 6081552. > DOS Version 1.00 6172212=C2=A0 (I'm tempted to keep this because of the CP/= M -vs- > DOS controversy) > > b) "DOS" part number 6024001 on spine with round sticker "1.10 with > Graphics".=C2=A0 I would call the condition very good.=C2=A0 One original 5= .25 > diskette:=C2=A0 DOS Version 1.10 1502330 > > c) Four UCSD p-System books: Beginner's guide, Assembler reference, Internal > Architecture Guide, User's guide.=C2=A0 The "User's guide" box contains five > original 5.25 diskettes: STARTUP, SYSTEM 2, SYSTEM 4, EXTRAS and UTILITIES. > > 3)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBM FORTRAN-77 Reference for the UCSD p-System "boxe= d book". > Contains one original 5.25 diskette: UCSD p-System FORTRAN Version IV.0 > 6936510 > > 4)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBM COBOL Compiler by Microsoft "boxed book".=C2=A0 = Contains two original > 5.25 diskettes: LIBRARY 6936566,=C2=A0 COBOL 6172250 > > 5)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Various other original IBM PC "boxed books".=C2=A0 D= ocument Retrieval > Assistant, 3101 Emulation, Dow Jones Reporter, SNA 3270, etc. etc.=C2=A0 Ma= ybe a > dozen. > > 6)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The box and binder for "Guide to operations, Persona= l Computer XT". > Unfortunately, it does not contain this.=C2=A0 Instead it contains "The CP/= M and > IBM Public Domain Library" by Dynacomp.=C2=A0 This all seems to be later CP= /M, > running on the IBM PC or Kaypro.=C2=A0 Just documentation and listings, no = media. > > 7)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBM Graphics Development Toolkit "boxed book".=C2=A0= Three original 5.25 > diskettes: VDI device drivers, Language Libraries, Supplemental Programs. > > 8)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BASIC - Personal Computer - PCjr "boxed book". Conta= ins original ROM > Cartridge "Cartridge BASIC" 1302285.=C2=A0 (Maybe this should go with the P= Cjr I > will be offering when I dig it out) > > 9)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ERGO MOBY BRICK 486DX-33 computer. Missing original = power supply.=C2=A0 I > cobbled together a supply last century some time and it worked then.=C2=A0 = Has > not been powered on in at least 25 years. > > 10)=C2=A0 Osbone Executive.=C2=A0 Limited Edition, personalized plaque to "= ANNETTE > KING".=C2=A0 It ran last century.=C2=A0 Has not been powered on in at least= 25 years. > > > > More to come. > > > > Bill S. > > > =20 --===============8955379748546142211==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 01:43:45 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: I need to make some space... Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 17:43:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <517269315.2287364.1673919622150@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1414932207929708375==" --===============1414932207929708375== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I KNOW WHAT I GOT! :) On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 5:40 PM wh.sudbrink--- via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > You're quite right. I'm in Maryland, near Washington, DC. As to prices, > I'm looking for best offer. Preference to local pick up. Things, like the > HP-150 docs, may become "free to a good home for shipping". By the way, I > don't need any more emails telling me how valuable the DOS 1.0 is. I get it. > Bill S. > On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 04:07:21 PM EST, js(a)cimmeri.com < > js(a)cimmeri.com> wrote: > > > Location?? Prices?? or Free? > > On 1/16/2023 2:28 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > > I'm not getting rid of my whole collection or anything, but things are > > getting a little tight in terms of physical space and I have stuff that > > simply doesn't keep my interest. I'd rather not do ebay so I'll offer > them > > here first. I will put up pictures if there is interest. None of this > is > > "barn stored". It has all been in my temperature controlled house since > > last century. > > > > > > > > 1) HP series 100 (the 150 and 150 touchscreen II) documentation. > This > > could be described as the "grey wall" for the HP 150. All the basic > books > > plus Wordstar, Spellstar, Multiplan, etc.etc. At least 20 "boxed books". > > Many (I think all but have not checked yet) have original diskettes. > HP-150 > > with built in printer to come when I get back to it. > > > > 2) IBM PC original "boxed books" > > > > a) "DOS" part number 6024001 on spine. I would call the condition > > excellent. Two original 5.25 diskettes: DIAGNOSTICS Version 1.02 > 6081552. > > DOS Version 1.00 6172212 (I'm tempted to keep this because of the CP/M > -vs- > > DOS controversy) > > > > b) "DOS" part number 6024001 on spine with round sticker "1.10 with > > Graphics". I would call the condition very good. One original 5.25 > > diskette: DOS Version 1.10 1502330 > > > > c) Four UCSD p-System books: Beginner's guide, Assembler reference, > Internal > > Architecture Guide, User's guide. The "User's guide" box contains five > > original 5.25 diskettes: STARTUP, SYSTEM 2, SYSTEM 4, EXTRAS and > UTILITIES. > > > > 3) IBM FORTRAN-77 Reference for the UCSD p-System "boxed book". > > Contains one original 5.25 diskette: UCSD p-System FORTRAN Version IV.0 > > 6936510 > > > > 4) IBM COBOL Compiler by Microsoft "boxed book". Contains two > original > > 5.25 diskettes: LIBRARY 6936566, COBOL 6172250 > > > > 5) Various other original IBM PC "boxed books". Document Retrieval > > Assistant, 3101 Emulation, Dow Jones Reporter, SNA 3270, etc. etc. > Maybe a > > dozen. > > > > 6) The box and binder for "Guide to operations, Personal Computer > XT". > > Unfortunately, it does not contain this. Instead it contains "The CP/M > and > > IBM Public Domain Library" by Dynacomp. This all seems to be later CP/M, > > running on the IBM PC or Kaypro. Just documentation and listings, no > media. > > > > 7) IBM Graphics Development Toolkit "boxed book". Three original > 5.25 > > diskettes: VDI device drivers, Language Libraries, Supplemental Programs. > > > > 8) BASIC - Personal Computer - PCjr "boxed book". Contains original > ROM > > Cartridge "Cartridge BASIC" 1302285. (Maybe this should go with the > PCjr I > > will be offering when I dig it out) > > > > 9) ERGO MOBY BRICK 486DX-33 computer. Missing original power > supply. I > > cobbled together a supply last century some time and it worked then. Has > > not been powered on in at least 25 years. > > > > 10) Osbone Executive. Limited Edition, personalized plaque to "ANNETTE > > KING". It ran last century. Has not been powered on in at least 25 > years. > > > > > > > > More to come. > > > > > > > > Bill S. > > > > > > > > --===============1414932207929708375==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Tue Jan 17 02:05:10 2023 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 21:04:22 -0500 Message-ID: <927451B8-B90D-4D94-9BC1-145D95425E6A@ryandelaplante.ca> In-Reply-To: <645253400.1893430.1673917871163@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5628698653302238185==" --===============5628698653302238185== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays? Archival grade, not susceptible to magne= tism or EMP. I think BluRay discs are made of a harder material than DVDs an= d don=E2=80=99t scratch as easily. > On Jan 16, 2023, at 8:11 PM, Chris via cctalk wro= te: >=20 > Been there. Seen it. It seems paper or tyvek is the way to store these thin= gs. >=20 > But the question is in 2023 why are you still committing data to optical me= dia? I dumped all my cds and dvds on to magnetic storage years ago. I got bur= ned waiting as long as I did even. >=20 > Some of the old spinning cd cleaner/restorers used an abrasive slurry. The = last one I bought (Onn) only has a cleaner afaik. You'll want to clean the di= sks thoroughly. Then try a "cleaning" solution that's more aggressive. My old= cd cleaner would leave circular scratches on the disk. But it was readable a= fter that. In 1 instance (then I lost it). Such an approach should be a last = resort though. >=20 > Don't just rely on Mac/Windoze facilities for reading stubborn disks. There= are programs that work better if you search. =20 --===============5628698653302238185==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 02:06:23 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 02:05:27 +0000 Message-ID: <311130759.1918879.1673921127796@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <311130759.1918879.1673921127796.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2552421734805576271==" --===============2552421734805576271== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The questi= on in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they any good a= t it. Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to suit a = particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication whereby the= y can analyze code and rewrite sections? --===============2552421734805576271==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 02:09:31 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 02:09:05 +0000 Message-ID: <3536048.1921671.1673921345784@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <927451B8-B90D-4D94-9BC1-145D95425E6A@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4493224308331088420==" --===============4493224308331088420== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Don't know, don't care. If we're being attacked by nuclear bombs of any strip= e, I have far more humongous things to worry about then what's on my hard dri= ves. I suppose if you were wring a book and wanted to back that up to an opti= cal disk, go for it. On Monday, January 16, 2023, 09:04:48 PM EST, Ryan d= e Laplante via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays?=C2=A0 Archival grade, not susceptible to= magnetism or EMP.=C2=A0 I think BluRay discs are made of a harder material t= han DVDs and don=E2=80=99t scratch as easily. > On Jan 16, 2023, at 8:11 PM, Chris via cctalk wro= te: >=20 > Been there. Seen it. It seems paper or tyvek is the way to store these thin= gs. >=20 > But the question is in 2023 why are you still committing data to optical me= dia? I dumped all my cds and dvds on to magnetic storage years ago. I got bur= ned waiting as long as I did even. >=20 > Some of the old spinning cd cleaner/restorers used an abrasive slurry. The = last one I bought (Onn) only has a cleaner afaik. You'll want to clean the di= sks thoroughly. Then try a "cleaning" solution that's more aggressive. My old= cd cleaner would leave circular scratches on the disk. But it was readable a= fter that. In 1 instance (then I lost it). Such an approach should be a last = resort though. >=20 > Don't just rely on Mac/Windoze facilities for reading stubborn disks. There= are programs that work better if you search.=C2=A0=20 =20 --===============4493224308331088420==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 02:46:56 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 18:46:19 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <311130759.1918879.1673921127796@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1011415670119152142==" --===============1011415670119152142== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, Apparently, ChatGPT 3 was trained on a large codebase, and in the reviews I've watched, as well as in my own experience, it is amazingly astute at generating (usually) working code in just about any language you can think of, including assembly languages of various flavors. Could it customize a DOS for a particular machine? Probably not in this iteration, although my guess is that it may come reasonably close to a good guide on what locations to patch, though it would still probably be incomplete. It's only as knowledgeable as the information on which it was trained, and since in the case of ChatGPT 3 that is said to be The Internet, it should have a sufficient knowledge to respond to an inquiry for such, or a succession of inquiries (sometimes you have to coax it into giving you a more complete, or a more detailed, or a more correct answer). All told, amazing stuff. Sellam On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 6:05 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The > question in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they > any good at it. > > Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to suit > a particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication whereby > they can analyze code and rewrite sections? > > --===============1011415670119152142==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 17 02:48:45 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 18:48:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3536048.1921671.1673921345784@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2947711506582429381==" --===============2947711506582429381== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays?=C2=A0 Archival grade, not susceptible=20 to magnetism or EMP.=C2=A0 I think BluRay discs are made of a harder material= than DVDs and don=E2=80=99t scratch as easily. On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Don't know, don't care. If we're being attacked by nuclear bombs of any=20 > stripe, I have far more humongous things to worry about then what's on=20 > my hard drives. I suppose if you were wring a book and wanted to back=20 > that up to an optical disk, go for it. I care, and would like to know more. Even without nuclear bombs, which I stopped worrying about 60 years ago, I=20 have occasionally had to deal with damaged data, from causes much more=20 mundane than EMPs. I have had magnetic, AND optical media that have "gone bad". I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in=20 a few decades. M-Disc claims 100 year life, but, obviously, no M-Disc has lasted that=20 long, and they are making promises based on what they THINK will happen. M-Disc BDXL is currently available in 100GB per platter. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2947711506582429381==-- From spc@conman.org Tue Jan 17 02:49:14 2023 From: Sean Conner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 21:48:49 -0500 Message-ID: <20230117024849.GB4715@brevard.conman.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8761038826111100018==" --===============8761038826111100018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was thus said that the Great Sellam Abraham via cctalk once stated: > Chris, > > Apparently, ChatGPT 3 was trained on a large codebase, and in the reviews > I've watched, as well as in my own experience, it is amazingly astute at > generating (usually) working code in just about any language you can think > of, including assembly languages of various flavors. And some of that codebase included MS-DOS itself: https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS -spc (It's only versions up to 2.1 though) --===============8761038826111100018==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 17 02:51:10 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 18:50:45 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <311130759.1918879.1673921127796@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8934590448049923639==" --===============8934590448049923639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The > question in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they > any good at it. > > Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to > suit a particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication > whereby they can analyze code and rewrite sections? Probably not yet. But, gradually getting a little closer. How many AI monkeys at how many keyboards did MICROS~1 use to write Windoze? --===============8934590448049923639==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 03:09:24 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 19:08:54 -0800 Message-ID: <6e04782d-2abe-1cc2-eaac-4be4efafeb92@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3702984688180615614==" --===============3702984688180615614== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/16/23 18:46, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Chris, > > Apparently, ChatGPT 3 was trained on a large codebase, and in the reviews > I've watched, as well as in my own experience, it is amazingly astute at > generating (usually) working code in just about any language you can think > of, including assembly languages of various flavors. > ChatGPT can translate x86 assembly to 7080 autocoder?   That would be something... --Chuck --===============3702984688180615614==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 03:43:18 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 19:42:41 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6e04782d-2abe-1cc2-eaac-4be4efafeb92@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3028170026534115732==" --===============3028170026534115732== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me: Translate the disassembly of the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into 7080 autocoder. ChatGPT: "It is not possible to simply translate the disassembly of the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into 7080 autocoder as the two are different assembly languages for different processors. The boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 was written specifically for the x86 processor, while the 7080 autocoder is for the 7080 processor. Additionally, the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 is likely specific to the IBM PC, and would not run on a machine using a 7080 processor. "To run PC DOS 1.0 on a machine with a 7080 processor, you would need to rewrite the entire operating system from scratch in assembly language for the 7080 processor." It didn't fall for your trick question. Sellam On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 7:09 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/16/23 18:46, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Chris, > > > > Apparently, ChatGPT 3 was trained on a large codebase, and in the reviews > > I've watched, as well as in my own experience, it is amazingly astute at > > generating (usually) working code in just about any language you can > think > > of, including assembly languages of various flavors. > > > ChatGPT can translate x86 assembly to 7080 autocoder? That would be > something... > > --Chuck > --===============3028170026534115732==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 04:15:42 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 22:15:04 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <927451B8-B90D-4D94-9BC1-145D95425E6A@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8228209534298505012==" --===============8228209534298505012== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not sure about those specifically. I think mdisc claimed 25 or 100 years but obviously can't prove it and if it's scratched from a holder it would be the same impact. Personally I always figured each little scratch on anything larger than a DVD would be a critical amount of data. This sort of adjacently brings up media life spans which I'm finding increasingly annoying. I have lots of hd-dvds that apparently suffer from poorly pressed labels and aren't playable anymore. One would think, being a newer tech than DVD they'd be good way longer. So even properly stored and not scratched I'm able to lose data thanks to crap quality of Warner discs. Not sure if laserdiscs also fall in to this but I've also heard some horror stories from collectors of optical game systems with CD rot, etc. On Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 8:04 PM Ryan de Laplante via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays? Archival grade, not susceptible to > magnetism or EMP. I think BluRay discs are made of a harder material than > DVDs and don’t scratch as easily. > > > > On Jan 16, 2023, at 8:11 PM, Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Been there. Seen it. It seems paper or tyvek is the way to store these > things. > > > > But the question is in 2023 why are you still committing data to optical > media? I dumped all my cds and dvds on to magnetic storage years ago. I got > burned waiting as long as I did even. > > > > Some of the old spinning cd cleaner/restorers used an abrasive slurry. > The last one I bought (Onn) only has a cleaner afaik. You'll want to clean > the disks thoroughly. Then try a "cleaning" solution that's more > aggressive. My old cd cleaner would leave circular scratches on the disk. > But it was readable after that. In 1 instance (then I lost it). Such an > approach should be a last resort though. > > > > Don't just rely on Mac/Windoze facilities for reading stubborn disks. > There are programs that work better if you search. > > > --===============8228209534298505012==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 17 04:21:42 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 20:21:19 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1829348303636872170==" --===============1829348303636872170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 7:09 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> ChatGPT can translate x86 assembly to 7080 autocoder? That would be >> something... On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Me: Translate the disassembly of the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into > 7080 autocoder. > ChatGPT: "It is not possible to simply translate the disassembly of the > boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into 7080 autocoder as the two are > different assembly languages for different processors. The boot sector code > for PC DOS 1.0 was written specifically for the x86 processor, while the > 7080 autocoder is for the 7080 processor. Additionally, the boot sector > code for PC DOS 1.0 is likely specific to the IBM PC, and would not run on > a machine using a 7080 processor. > > "To run PC DOS 1.0 on a machine with a 7080 processor, you would need to > rewrite the entire operating system from scratch in assembly language for > the 7080 processor." > > It didn't fall for your trick question. I'm impressed. But, also a little disappointed. "It is not possible to simply translate . . . as the two are different assembly languages for different processors." Isn't that what "TRANSLATE" asked for? "Additionally, the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 is likely specific to=20 the IBM PC, and would not run on a machine using a 7080 processor." The boot sector code is specific to the IBM PC, and would not run on a=20 machine that was not the same hardware; processor is a lesser part of that=20 problem, and "TRANSLATED" would tend to imply running on the target=20 processor. The boot sector code has a few very specific tasks to do. That is more an=20 issue of being specific to the disk hardware and boot procedure of the PC,=20 rather than the processor on which it is run. If you were to build a PC like computer using the 7080 processor (WOW!)=20 and working with PC-DOS disks, then the structure of the boot sector could=20 be similar, even if the individual commands aren't. Yes, every subroutine in the operating system (BIOS and IBMBIO.COM (IO.SYS=20 for MS-DOS), BDOS (IBMDOS.COM, (MSDOS.SYS for MS-DOS)), COMMAND.COM, and=20 all of the supplied programs) would need to be re-written for 7080, but=20 the overall structure could be mimiced. Porting a program, even an OS, to a different processor is not quite the=20 same as re-writing from scratch. What if you asked it to translate FORMAT.COM for 7080? --===============1829348303636872170==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 05:08:51 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 21:08:23 -0800 Message-ID: <6ffcef03-dbe4-2f16-a6a4-bb581e565617@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4515710593858997292==" --===============4515710593858997292== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/16/23 19:42, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > It didn't fall for your trick question. > > Sellam Right, but that isn't what I asked.   Take a segment of x86 assembly, sans any comments that performs a simple math problem using no I//O, such as computing a Fibonacci sequence, storing it in memory. Should be straightforward, no matter the processor architecture, even on an IBM 650 using SOAP.   What I'm getting at is does the thing "understand" the 7080 architecture and ISA, or is it just making an excuse? Or try any of the assembly versions in 99-bottles-of-beer.net, say http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-ibm-1620-sps-916.html , and tell it to translate to 7080 autocoder.   I'm, guessing that the paucity of 7080 autocoder samples will cause the AI to fail, even though the task is certainly feasible..  But I'm willing to be surprised.  --Chuck   --===============4515710593858997292==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 05:18:17 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 21:17:49 -0800 Message-ID: <642e5a12-b49b-01fd-7c1b-c034491e721a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3767078436300558271==" --===============3767078436300558271== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/16/23 19:42, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > It didn't fall for your trick question. > > Sellam In fact, feed it the object code for a reasonably compatible architecture and ask it to perform translation to another architecture's object code. Certainly within the range of human capability. I don't know if Paul remembers the 1620 SPS coding forms -- one side had the layout for the "1620 Symbolic Programming System"; the reverse had the "1620 Absolute Coding System".  (Yes kids, we really did write object code without an assembler back in those days.) The 1620 was especially suited to this type of coding; absolutely regular machine instruction format (2 digit opcode, 5 digit P field, 5 digit Q field).  All instructions were 12 digits in length--and the machine was variable word-length decimal. Take a hunk of obscure (to us now) assembly and ask ChatGPT what it does. Again, certainly within the range of human capability.   My point is that ChatGPT is a great database inquiry tool with a fancy interface, but the "I" is missing in "AI". --Chuck --===============3767078436300558271==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 05:43:23 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 05:42:55 +0000 Message-ID: <817450013.1956553.1673934175053@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8062024930068537703==" --===============8062024930068537703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The only answer that anyone can provide is redundancy. Keep 2 or 3 copies of= everything on seperate external drives. Every 3 to 5 years buy new drives an= d transfer the data to them. Or just run checkdisk twice a year and wait for = 1 drive to start popping errors. Replace it. Wait for other to fail. Then rep= lace it. No one can tell you how long a single media will last as you pointed out. You= can only rely on making periodic reliable backups.=20 There's also the issue of practicality. Burning disks is laborious. If they'r= e big disks, it's not as laborious (I guess). Much maintenance and replacemen= t of hard drives can be done unattended. But be careful with that as Windows = gets lazy and will quit if you try to transfer too much data at a single time. Cost wise I don't think magnetic backups is much different from any other. = On Monday, January 16, 2023, 09:48:17 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 > What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays?=C2=A0 Archival grade, not susceptible = to magnetism or EMP.=C2=A0 I think BluRay discs are made of a harder material= than DVDs and don=E2=80=99t scratch as easily. On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Don't know, don't care. If we're being attacked by nuclear bombs of any=20 > stripe, I have far more humongous things to worry about then what's on=20 > my hard drives. I suppose if you were wring a book and wanted to back=20 > that up to an optical disk, go for it. I care, and would like to know more. Even without nuclear bombs, which I stopped worrying about 60 years ago, I=20 have occasionally had to deal with damaged data, from causes much more=20 mundane than EMPs. I have had magnetic, AND optical media that have "gone bad". I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in=20 a few decades. M-Disc claims 100 year life, but, obviously, no M-Disc has lasted that=20 long, and they are making promises based on what they THINK will happen. M-Disc BDXL is currently available in 100GB per platter. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cisin(a)xe= nosoft.com =20 --===============8062024930068537703==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 17 05:45:27 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 21:45:02 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <642e5a12-b49b-01fd-7c1b-c034491e721a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8584626052381452567==" --===============8584626052381452567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 1/16/23 19:42, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> It didn't fall for your trick question. On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > In fact, feed it the object code for a reasonably compatible > architecture and ask it to perform translation to another architecture's > object code. > > Certainly within the range of human capability. How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as translating FORTRAN to BASIC? --===============8584626052381452567==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 05:54:31 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 05:54:03 +0000 Message-ID: <1976450910.1957292.1673934843667@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6577514012828813348==" --===============6577514012828813348== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No one even bothered to try and answer my first question, which wasn't actua= lly posed as a question but that's irrelevant!! Can these things make food guesses. It was a long time ago, 15 - 20 years, I = was watching Jeopardy and within a relatively short span of time, days or wee= ks apart, I successfully guessed the correct answer to the final question. Bu= t none of the contestants did, and believe you me my success up until that po= int was poor by comparison. I remember 1 of the questions, but both were mere= ly guesses, fairly educated ones one might say. But I didn't actually know th= e answers. Can AI do that? =20 --===============6577514012828813348==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 06:02:31 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 22:02:04 -0800 Message-ID: <0016e927-de9a-29c8-dd0a-a86322227ced@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2546051351530924175==" --===============2546051351530924175== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/16/23 21:45, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as > translating FORTRAN to BASIC? How about FORTRAN to RPG? --Chuck --===============2546051351530924175==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 17 06:09:01 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 22:08:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1976450910.1957292.1673934843667@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4865117069700903164==" --===============4865117069700903164== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > No one even bothered to try and answer my first question, which wasn't > actually posed as a question but that's irrelevant!! > Can these things make food guesses. It was a long time ago, 15 - 20 > years, I was watching Jeopardy and within a relatively short span of > time, days or weeks apart, I successfully guessed the correct answer to > the final question. But none of the contestants did, and believe you me > my success up until that point was poor by comparison. I remember 1 of > the questions, but both were merely guesses, fairly educated ones one > might say. But I didn't actually know the answers. Can AI do that? Yes, if they have possibilities (especially multiple choice!), they should be able to make good guesses at which is the most probable answer. Lofti Zadeh's "Fuzzy Logic" is often indistinguishable from combinatorial probability. --===============4865117069700903164==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 06:10:05 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 22:09:35 -0800 Message-ID: <24ee1683-1b29-14fa-aaf8-e859cb2e043a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1976450910.1957292.1673934843667@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1959306276145116750==" --===============1959306276145116750== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/16/23 21:54, Chris via cctalk wrote: > No one even bothered to try and answer my first question, which wasn't act= ually posed as a question but that's irrelevant!! > > Can these things make food guesses. It was a long time ago, 15 - 20 years, = I was watching Jeopardy and within a relatively short span of time, days or w= eeks apart, I successfully guessed the correct answer to the final question. = But none of the contestants did, and believe you me my success up until that = point was poor by comparison. I remember 1 of the questions, but both were me= rely guesses, fairly educated ones one might say. But I didn't actually know = the answers. Can AI do that? =20 Wasn't that done about 12 years ago using Watson? https://youtu.be/WFR3lOm_xhE --Chuck --===============1959306276145116750==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 06:12:35 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:12:07 +0000 Message-ID: <2143813027.1960407.1673935927396@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <0016e927-de9a-29c8-dd0a-a86322227ced@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6897637083628393047==" --===============6897637083628393047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How's about just convwrting IV to 77? On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 01:02:16 AM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 1/16/23 21:45, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as > translating FORTRAN to BASIC? How about FORTRAN to RPG? --Chuck =20 --===============6897637083628393047==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 17 06:20:53 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 22:20:27 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0016e927-de9a-29c8-dd0a-a86322227ced@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5057776049131988023==" --===============5057776049131988023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as >> translating FORTRAN to BASIC? On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > How about FORTRAN to RPG? Certainly more of a challenge! But, a good way to quanitfy how far along they are getting on it. The range of code traanslation goes from trivial to extreme. The question is where is it currently on that scale? Yes, conversion of FORTRAN-IV to Fortran-77 should be easy. And considering that many systems ADD capoabilities, converting Fortran-77 to FORTRAN-IV might be a bit harder. (compare that to converting 8080 to Z80, vs converting Z80 to 8080) still relatively straight-forward, but a few additional complications. --===============5057776049131988023==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 06:24:11 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:23:41 +0000 Message-ID: <1776975193.1966822.1673936621437@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <24ee1683-1b29-14fa-aaf8-e859cb2e043a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0995678234295312697==" --===============0995678234295312697== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But which of those constitutes guessing? The computer would likely have beat= en me to the answer by at least a second :). It's easy enough to look up, for= a computer that is. But in that instance a computer wouldn't need to guess. = And for me, there were no multiple choices. It was hardly an educated guess -= I never read the friggin book as I was supposed to! (the Odyssey). But the a= nswer was a word I was familiar with from childhood, never actually knowing w= hat it's origin was (mentor). On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 01:09:46 AM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 1/16/23 21:54, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 No one even bothered to try and answer my first question, which wasn'= t actually posed as a question but that's irrelevant!! > > Can these things make food guesses. It was a long time ago, 15 - 20 years, = I was watching Jeopardy and within a relatively short span of time, days or w= eeks apart, I successfully guessed the correct answer to the final question. = But none of the contestants did, and believe you me my success up until that = point was poor by comparison. I remember 1 of the questions, but both were me= rely guesses, fairly educated ones one might say. But I didn't actually know = the answers. Can AI do that?=C2=A0=20 Wasn't that done about 12 years ago using Watson? https://youtu.be/WFR3lOm_xhE --Chuck =20 --===============0995678234295312697==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Tue Jan 17 10:32:50 2023 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:02:43 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <817450013.1956553.1673934175053@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8035796718830272442==" --===============8035796718830272442== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 05:42:55AM +0000, Chris via cctalk wrote: [...] > The only answer that anyone can provide is redundancy. Keep 2 or 3 copies > of everything on seperate external drives. Every 3 to 5 years buy new > drives and transfer the data to them. Or just run checkdisk twice a year > and wait for 1 drive to start popping errors. Replace it. Wait for other > to fail. Then replace it. If you mean CHKDSK.EXE, it's broadly equivalent to Unix fsck plus a surface scan, and all fsck does is check and repair filesystem _metadata_. If the metadata is corrupt then that's a good sign that the data itself is also toast, but a successful verification of the metadata does not tell you anything useful about the data itself. The surface scan asks the drive to read each sector, and relies on the disk correctly identifying sectors which have changed from when they were written. This is almost always the case, but that "< 1 in 10¹⁴" in the datasheet is still not zero. And that's before we consider dodgy SATA cables and buggy disk controllers. (SAS won't save you either: what it gives in increased quality, it takes away in extra complexity.) On typical Windows desktop computers, the probability that something else will go wrong and destroy the system is way higher than the raw error rate of the disk, but on non-toy systems with many tens or hundreds of terabytes of data, the probability of a disk lying rises uncomfortably-close to 1. A good filesystem needs to defend against disks which do that. FAT and NTFS are not good filesystems by that measure. --===============8035796718830272442==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 17 10:52:21 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 10:16:18 +0000 Message-ID: <01SMT6AL91748X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5021972838322935382==" --===============5021972838322935382== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred Cisin wrote: >>> How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as >>> translating FORTRAN to BASIC? > On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> How about FORTRAN to RPG? > > Certainly more of a challenge! > > But, a good way to quanitfy how far along they are getting on it. > > The range of code traanslation goes from trivial to extreme. > The question is where is it currently on that scale? > > Yes, conversion of FORTRAN-IV to Fortran-77 should be easy. > And considering that many systems ADD capoabilities, converting Fortran-77 > to FORTRAN-IV might be a bit harder. > In the 1980s, I used WATFIV. WATFIV stood for "Waterloo FORTRAN IV" which was actually FORTRAN-IV with some Fortran-77-like extensions such as character variables, IF-THEN-ELSE and WHILE-ENDWHILE for example. The WATFIV runtime library came with a subroutine (called TRANSL IIRC) which could be used to translate code with WATFIV extensions to FORTRAN-IV. I can't remember what it did with character variables but it translated IF-THEN-ELSE and WHILE-ENDWHILE constructs into IF-GOTO-CONTINUE type constructs which just worked. I think dealing with character variables may have required some human input but I don't really recall. > > (compare that to converting 8080 to Z80, vs converting Z80 to 8080) > still relatively straight-forward, but a few additional complications. > How about translating code from Z80 which has several registers to 6502 with rather fewer? That would seem to need some more intelligent thinking on how to simulate the unavailable registers without causing additional difficulties. Regards, Peter Coghlan. --===============5021972838322935382==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Tue Jan 17 11:36:36 2023 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 12:36:02 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SMT6AL91748X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1241430743523986879==" --===============1241430743523986879== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:16:18AM +0000, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: [...] > How about translating code from Z80 which has several registers to 6502 > with rather fewer? That would seem to need some more intelligent thinking > on how to simulate the unavailable registers without causing additional > difficulties. It is often said that the 6502 has 256 registers, i.e. zero page. So e.g. LD (HL), A could be mechanically transformed into the sequence LDX #0, LDA (h, X), and STA a, with h and a being zero page locations. On the 65C02 the first two operations can be replaced with a simple LDA (h), although it may still be useful to index via X to simulate EXX without performing an expensive copy. As it stands, that replaces a one byte instruction with five byte sequence which is obviously not great, but a relatively simple peephole optimiser can eliminate many of the redundant loads and stores so it wouldn't be quite so bad. After all, one important source of stores is the flags register, which I ignored in the code fragment. A _good_ optimiser can do a lot of clever analysis and transformation, and would probably be needed to handle all of the edge cases well, but would be too large and CPU-intensive to run on a Z80 or 6502 system. It'd be easier to bodge a Z80 into a 6502 machine than try and translate the code. That's what often happened back in the day, after all. --===============1241430743523986879==-- From cube1@charter.net Tue Jan 17 11:52:37 2023 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 05:44:44 -0600 Message-ID: <00965A4D-1CCC-4153-99BC-2614023A553A@charter.net> In-Reply-To: <01SMT6AL91748X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2650289298800793724==" --===============2650289298800793724== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 04:52, Peter Coghlan via cctalk =20 >=20 > How about translating code from Z80 which has several registers to 6502 with > rather fewer? That would seem to need some more intelligent thinking on > how to simulate the unavailable registers without causing additional > difficulties. >=20 > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. That would be not much different than compiling code (say, C) for the 6502. = One need not =E2=80=9Csimulate=E2=80=9D anything. One could use the stack pl= us perhaps a bit of so-called heap storage to manage register allocation, along with translating ( perhaps with = optimization ) the instruction stream. Dealing with changed 8080 stack offse= ts from the original code would be tricky. --===============2650289298800793724==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 17 12:33:39 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 12:12:53 +0000 Message-ID: <01SMTA0R8ADK8X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0069321236976319923==" --===============0069321236976319923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Corlett wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:16:18AM +0000, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> How about translating code from Z80 which has several registers to 6502 >> with rather fewer? That would seem to need some more intelligent thinking >> on how to simulate the unavailable registers without causing additional >> difficulties. > > It is often said that the 6502 has 256 registers, i.e. zero page. > > So e.g. LD (HL), A could be mechanically transformed into the sequence LDX > #0, LDA (h, X), and STA a, with h and a being zero page locations. On the > 65C02 the first two operations can be replaced with a simple LDA (h), > although it may still be useful to index via X to simulate EXX without > performing an expensive copy. > > As it stands, that replaces a one byte instruction with five byte sequence > which is obviously not great, but a relatively simple peephole optimiser can > eliminate many of the redundant loads and stores so it wouldn't be quite so > bad. After all, one important source of stores is the flags register, which > I ignored in the code fragment. A _good_ optimiser can do a lot of clever > analysis and transformation, and would probably be needed to handle all of > the edge cases well, but would be too large and CPU-intensive to run on a > Z80 or 6502 system. > In the context of the original question posed, I think it would be interesting to know of if todays technology artifical intelligence can perform these sort of tasks by "learning how" or "figuring out how" ie without being programmed specifically to carry out these tasks. Even better, could it deal with more complex difficulties such as the address space already being full and the translated code being larger than the original code? > > It'd be easier to bodge a Z80 into a 6502 machine than try and translate the > code. That's what often happened back in the day, after all. > If the artificial intelligence machine came up with the answer: "It'd be too much trouble to translate the code, stick in a Z80 instead" would that be a useful advance on having a human being come up with the same conclusion? Would it be able to justify it's conclusion to a beancounter? Regards, Peter Coghlan. --===============0069321236976319923==-- From db@db.net Tue Jan 17 12:59:28 2023 From: Diane Bruce To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 07:44:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2965543436790204711==" --===============2965543436790204711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 06:48:11PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays?=C2=A0 Archival grade, not susceptible= =20 > to magnetism or EMP.=C2=A0 I think BluRay discs are made of a harder materi= al than DVDs and don=E2=80=99t scratch as easily. >=20 ... >=20 > I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in=20 > a few decades. Acid free paper. > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >=20 --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db @Dianora(a)Octodon.social --===============2965543436790204711==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 13:31:11 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:30:43 +0000 Message-ID: <2014025669.2040755.1673962243725@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6297553203830392643==" --===============6297553203830392643== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Newsprint from 1800s if stored properly is still white. No sense in getting = all expensive. On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 07:59:12 AM EST, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 06:48:11PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays?=C2=A0 Archival grade, not susceptible= =20 > to magnetism or EMP.=C2=A0 I think BluRay discs are made of a harder materi= al than DVDs and don=E2=80=99t scratch as easily. >=20 ... >=20 > I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in=20 > a few decades. Acid free paper. > Grumpy Ol' Fred=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cisin(a)= xenosoft.com >=20 --=20 db(a)FreeBSD.org db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db @Dianora(a)Octodon.social =20 --===============6297553203830392643==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 13:34:57 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:34:23 +0000 Message-ID: <64937592.50197.1673962463095@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4843717527610048811==" --===============4843717527610048811== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 You have to make the best of what you have to work with needless to say. Are = you making arguments im favor of long term optical storage? It doesn't seem s= o, but if you were, you lost me. On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 05:32:33 AM EST, Peter Corlett via cctalk = wrote: =20 =20 On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 05:42:55AM +0000, Chris via cctalk wrote: [...] > The only answer that anyone can provide is redundancy. Keep 2 or 3 copies > of everything on seperate external drives. Every 3 to 5 years buy new > drives and transfer the data to them. Or just run checkdisk twice a year > and wait for 1 drive to start popping errors. Replace it. Wait for other > to fail. Then replace it. If you mean CHKDSK.EXE, it's broadly equivalent to Unix fsck plus a surface scan, and all fsck does is check and repair filesystem _metadata_. If the metadata is corrupt then that's a good sign that the data itself is also toast, but a successful verification of the metadata does not tell you anything useful about the data itself. The surface scan asks the drive to read each sector, and relies on the disk correctly identifying sectors which have changed from when they were written. This is almost always the case, but that "< 1 in 10=C2=B9=E2=81=B4" = in the datasheet is still not zero. And that's before we consider dodgy SATA cables and buggy disk controllers. (SAS won't save you either: what it gives in increased quality, it takes away in extra complexity.) On typical Windows desktop computers, the probability that something else will go wrong and destroy the system is way higher than the raw error rate of the disk, but on non-toy systems with many tens or hundreds of terabytes of data, the probability of a disk lying rises uncomfortably-close to 1. A good filesystem needs to defend against disks which do that. FAT and NTFS are not good filesystems by that measure. =20 --===============4843717527610048811==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 13:39:58 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Positive Logic vs. Negative Logic Controller in DEC TU56 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 08:39:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4489422710821839251==" --===============4489422710821839251== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am working to understand a TU56 in my possession that came from an unknown environment. A connecting cable that came with it reads "PDP9" on one end so I wondered if this is actually associated with the TU56 or just sitting in the same box before the TU56 came to me. I have read here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/TU56_DECtape_Transport That one can have a TU56 with a M531 or a G742 to serve as a bus converter. THe M531 is for situations where one has a negative logic controller and the G742 is for when one has a positive logic controller. Jumping a few steps ahead, if the TU56 was attached to a PDP-9, would it use a G742 if one tried to attach a TU56 to it? I feel as if the G742 would be used if the TU56 was intended for a PDP8 and not a PDP11, right? I searched the web and will continue to research but I thought I'd ask experts here. No, I don't use ChatGPT. Bill --===============4489422710821839251==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Tue Jan 17 13:40:39 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 05:40:14 -0800 Message-ID: <67D55778-3442-48B4-816C-422D9772A4DD@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <645253400.1893430.1673917871163@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5400764644175144371==" --===============5400764644175144371== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 16, 2023, at 5:11 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Been there. Seen it. It seems paper or tyvek is the way to store these thin= gs. Thankfully most of the disks that I=E2=80=99ve imaged that don=E2=80=99t have= jewel cases, are in paper sleeves. Or even worse, a few have been loose. I= t looks like this may be the main CD impacted. It looks like most of I used = these accursed sleeves for are DVD-R=E2=80=99s from nearly 20 years ago, that= I don=E2=80=99t care about. > But the question is in 2023 why are you still committing data to optical me= dia? I dumped all my cds and dvds on to magnetic storage years ago. I got bur= ned waiting as long as I did even. I=E2=80=99m recovering CD=E2=80=99s and Floppies at this point, not burning, = though I will probably see about burning these onto an M-Disc. Zane --===============5400764644175144371==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Tue Jan 17 13:58:36 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 05:58:09 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0145788422850698543==" --===============0145788422850698543== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 16, 2023, at 6:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in a= few decades. >=20 > M-Disc claims 100 year life, but, obviously, no M-Disc has lasted that long= , and they are making promises based on what they THINK will happen. >=20 > M-Disc BDXL is currently available in 100GB per platter. In the early days of this list (think back 25 years), I believe it was Tim Sh= oppa that was recommending either Gold CD-R blanks, or Verbatim DataLifePlus.= If I remember correctly, he=E2=80=99d done some aging tests on them, and th= ey were the two that held up well. As a result, I standardized on Verbatim D= ataLifePlus for any CD=E2=80=99s I expected to be reading after a year. I=E2= =80=99ve read ones from 1997 without problem. In fact I think I=E2=80=99ve o= nly had a couple minor issues. One of the disks I read had to be washed befo= re I could even attempt it as it has been sitting out bare. What has surprised me is the results from the floppies, mostly stored in the = garage for the last 15 years, and before that, I don=E2=80=99t remember. Gra= nted I tended to go with higher quality floppies, but still, I=E2=80=99ve exp= ected a lot more issues than I=E2=80=99ve had. Some of the 3.5=E2=80=9D flop= pies I=E2=80=99ve read date back to 1987 or 88. Mind you I=E2=80=99ve not tr= ied to recover data from 5.25=E2=80=9D floppies yet, I=E2=80=99m still trying= to find those, and a big drawer/box of 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies. Zane --===============0145788422850698543==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Tue Jan 17 14:05:30 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:04:45 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2782300467999601176==" --===============2782300467999601176== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 17, 2023, at 2:02 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >=20 > If you mean CHKDSK.EXE, it's broadly equivalent to Unix fsck plus a surface > scan, and all fsck does is check and repair filesystem _metadata_. If the > metadata is corrupt then that's a good sign that the data itself is also > toast, but a successful verification of the metadata does not tell you > anything useful about the data itself. And this is where having Optical Discs help. As part of my project, I=E2=80= =99ve found backups from as far back as =E2=80=9997, and as a result, recover= ed data that I=E2=80=99d lost by =E2=80=9999. That includes an update to a b= ook that can no longer be found on the Internet, and all the code for a Share= ware program I wrote in =E2=80=9996/97. The 3-2-1 rule says you should have at least 3 copies of your data, including= two on different types of media, and a 3rd copy off-site. Zane --===============2782300467999601176==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 14:55:12 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 09:54:38 -0500 Message-ID: <419C8582-C134-4562-B7C4-D31425FFB678@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5927514125959400406==" --===============5927514125959400406== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 16, 2023, at 9:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays? Archival grade, not susceptible=20 > to magnetism or EMP. I think BluRay discs are made of a harder material th= an DVDs and don=E2=80=99t scratch as easily. >=20 > On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> Don't know, don't care. If we're being attacked by nuclear bombs of any st= ripe, I have far more humongous things to worry about then what's on my hard = drives. I suppose if you were wring a book and wanted to back that up to an o= ptical disk, go for it. >=20 > I care, and would like to know more. > Even without nuclear bombs, which I stopped worrying about 60 years ago, I = have occasionally had to deal with damaged data, from causes much more mundan= e than EMPs. >=20 > I have had magnetic, AND optical media that have "gone bad". >=20 > I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in a= few decades. Not SSD, that's for sure. The fact those are becoming the predominant storag= e medium is a bit of a concern for long term storage, because SSD is entirely= unfit for that job. Apparently they are ok when powered because the firmwar= e will refresh the bits from time to time, but you can't put an SSD on the sh= elf and still expect its data to be good a decade later, as you can with hard= drives. With hard drives you have to worry about mechanical faults, of course. I won= der if there are any long term storage issues with the bearings. Most likely, the biggest issue with old storage devices is the loss of the de= vice to connect them to, and/or the loss of the code that reads them. To pic= k one example, I have an 1990s era Dell laptop that no longer passes POST (it= gives a "beep code" failure that I haven't been able to cure). I would like= to get whatever is on its hard disk, but that has a proprietary interface as= far as I can tell and I have nothing to plug it into. I have an RM03 pack somewhere. There probably are a few places left that cou= ld read it. If it were an RA60 pack it would be a whole lot more problematic= , I suspect. Without an old drive, how would you recover the data? Spin tab= le? Perhaps, if you can find, or reverse engineer, the format. The Long Now foundation has done work on the question of storing data in a wa= y that can still be deciphered a millennium from now. It's not a simple ques= tion. Some SF writers have wrapped stories around the question (James P. Hog= an did it several times -- Echoes of an Alien Sky, Inherit the Stars, and muc= h earlier (1957) there was H. Beam Piper "Omnilingual"). Early storage devices are less problematic than newer ones, given the more an= d more complex coding used. Never mind intentional encryption; just the high= density codes with interleaving and ECC and all that would be somewhat akin = to encryption when examined with a future archeologist. Imagine, for example= , an archeologist 5 centures from now trying to make sense out of a box full = of SATA interface hard drives, full of documents in PDF, JPG, or MP4 format. paul --===============5927514125959400406==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 14:57:25 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 09:56:55 -0500 Message-ID: <932BC6B1-EBB9-42A1-A71A-E647B74B50D3@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3726421673397456410==" --===============3726421673397456410== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 8:58 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> On Jan 16, 2023, at 6:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in = a few decades. >>=20 >> M-Disc claims 100 year life, but, obviously, no M-Disc has lasted that lon= g, and they are making promises based on what they THINK will happen. >>=20 >> M-Disc BDXL is currently available in 100GB per platter. >=20 > In the early days of this list (think back 25 years), I believe it was Tim = Shoppa that was recommending either Gold CD-R blanks, or Verbatim DataLifePlu= s. If I remember correctly, he=E2=80=99d done some aging tests on them, and = they were the two that held up well. As a result, I standardized on Verbatim= DataLifePlus for any CD=E2=80=99s I expected to be reading after a year. I= =E2=80=99ve read ones from 1997 without problem. In fact I think I=E2=80=99v= e only had a couple minor issues. One of the disks I read had to be washed b= efore I could even attempt it as it has been sitting out bare. >=20 > What has surprised me is the results from the floppies, mostly stored in th= e garage for the last 15 years, and before that, I don=E2=80=99t remember. G= ranted I tended to go with higher quality floppies, but still, I=E2=80=99ve e= xpected a lot more issues than I=E2=80=99ve had. Some of the 3.5=E2=80=9D fl= oppies I=E2=80=99ve read date back to 1987 or 88. Mind you I=E2=80=99ve not = tried to recover data from 5.25=E2=80=9D floppies yet, I=E2=80=99m still tryi= ng to find those, and a big drawer/box of 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies. Sometimes you run into surprises with particular media manufacturers. I blac= listed Fuji when 100% of my Fuji audio cassettes failed (media failing such t= hat playback would be overwhelmed by squeaky noises heard on the playback, no= t just the drive mechanism). No other brands did this sort of wholesale coll= apse, and most haven't failed at all, not even the cheaper ones. paul --===============3726421673397456410==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 15:17:42 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Positive Logic vs. Negative Logic Controller in DEC TU56 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 10:17:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1216596581004443839==" --===============1216596581004443839== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 8:39 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > I am working to understand a TU56 in my possession that came from an > unknown environment. A connecting cable that came with it reads "PDP9" on > one end so I wondered if this is actually associated with the TU56 or just > sitting in the same box before the TU56 came to me. I have read here: > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/TU56_DECtape_Transport > > That one can have a TU56 with a M531 or a G742 to serve as a bus > converter. THe M531 is for situations where one has a negative logic > controller and the G742 is for when one has a positive logic controller. > > Jumping a few steps ahead, if the TU56 was attached to a PDP-9, would it > use a G742 if one tried to attach a TU56 to it? I feel as if the G742 > would be used if the TU56 was intended for a PDP8 and not a PDP11, right? > > I searched the web and will continue to research but I thought I'd ask > experts here. No, I don't use ChatGPT. > > Bill > First of all, here is a set of pre-restoration pics of the TU56 I am cleaning up and trying to understand: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/TU56/index.cfm?sort=3Dname&order=3DDE= SC I found a good general description of how the negative / positive relates to the PDP-8 and how peripherals fit into the picture. https://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~dwjones/pdp8/models/ "The "negibus" or negative logic I/O bus used -3 and 0 volt logic levels in 92 ohm coaxial cable" - a M531 would be used if attaching to a computer with a negative bus. A G742 indicates the computer using the TU56 had some form of positive logic bus. The positive I/O bus, or posibus, was a 100 ohm bus clamped between 0 and 3 volts with TTL drivers and receivers. BUT - The cable that connects the TU56 to the external peripheral possibly appears to convert the posibus to a negibus as well as data. So I am thinking the presence of a G742 does not alone indicate the computer using the TU56. Note the 18 connectors: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/TU56/TU56_PDP9-connector.png I think a PDP-9 and earlier PDP8's were negative logic computers, so it's possible that this TU56 was used with a negative logic computer, the PDP-9 despite the G742, given 1) The 18-pin bus adapter-ing on the other end of the TU56 positive bus 2) THe "PDP9" printed on the adapter. 3) The other side of the cable reads "TC02 E&F" (I believe). I know PDP-9's attached to TU55's, but the TU56 was not invented yet. TC02? http://www.bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-00-HRTC-D%20TU= 56%20DECtape%20Transport%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf See page 22 (1) For a TU56M or TU56MH Transport: controller-to-transport information cable =3D 70-06412, transport-totransport (other TU56 or TU56H in system) information cable =3D 74-5152. See Note 2 for TU56M or TU56MH connected to a TD8/e Controller. (2) When a TU56M or TU56MH is connected to a TDa TD8/e Controller, only one 70-08447 cable is used for both commands and information. This cable has both a single-height and a double-height connector module on the termination end. Insert the single-height connector into slots A061 A07 and the double-height connector into slots AB 1 01 AB I I. Bill --===============1216596581004443839==-- From bgudgel@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 15:57:45 2023 From: boB To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 08:57:18 -0700 Message-ID: <5219f7e7-ac40-6eed-6b1e-fe12eb5c2924@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <419C8582-C134-4562-B7C4-D31425FFB678@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6168779882293374018==" --===============6168779882293374018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/17/2023 7:54 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 16, 2023, at 9:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >>> What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays? Archival grade, not susceptible >> to magnetism or EMP. I think BluRay discs are made of a harder material t= han DVDs and don=E2=80=99t scratch as easily. >> >> On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>> Don't know, don't care. If we're being attacked by nuclear bombs of any s= tripe, I have far more humongous things to worry about then what's on my hard= drives. I suppose if you were wring a book and wanted to back that up to an = optical disk, go for it. >> I care, and would like to know more. >> Even without nuclear bombs, which I stopped worrying about 60 years ago, I= have occasionally had to deal with damaged data, from causes much more munda= ne than EMPs. >> >> I have had magnetic, AND optical media that have "gone bad". >> >> I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in = a few decades. > Not SSD, that's for sure. The fact those are becoming the predominant stor= age medium is a bit of a concern for long term storage, because SSD is entire= ly unfit for that job. Apparently they are ok when powered because the firmw= are will refresh the bits from time to time, but you can't put an SSD on the = shelf and still expect its data to be good a decade later, as you can with ha= rd drives. > > With hard drives you have to worry about mechanical faults, of course. I w= onder if there are any long term storage issues with the bearings. My understanding is that it is a good idea to plug the hard drives in=20 once in a while just to get them rotating for a moment to keep the=20 bearings lubricated or whatever. So far, so good on all my backups but I am a bit bad about doing that.=C2=A0 = I use 2 backups at least but some of the more important stuff I use 3. There used to be a program that would read the disk and write the bits=20 back to freshen up their magnetic domains. That might have been "Spinwriter" ? boB > > Most likely, the biggest issue with old storage devices is the loss of the = device to connect them to, and/or the loss of the code that reads them. To p= ick one example, I have an 1990s era Dell laptop that no longer passes POST (= it gives a "beep code" failure that I haven't been able to cure). I would li= ke to get whatever is on its hard disk, but that has a proprietary interface = as far as I can tell and I have nothing to plug it into. > > I have an RM03 pack somewhere. There probably are a few places left that c= ould read it. If it were an RA60 pack it would be a whole lot more problemat= ic, I suspect. Without an old drive, how would you recover the data? Spin t= able? Perhaps, if you can find, or reverse engineer, the format. > > The Long Now foundation has done work on the question of storing data in a = way that can still be deciphered a millennium from now. It's not a simple qu= estion. Some SF writers have wrapped stories around the question (James P. H= ogan did it several times -- Echoes of an Alien Sky, Inherit the Stars, and m= uch earlier (1957) there was H. Beam Piper "Omnilingual"). > > Early storage devices are less problematic than newer ones, given the more = and more complex coding used. Never mind intentional encryption; just the hi= gh density codes with interleaving and ECC and all that would be somewhat aki= n to encryption when examined with a future archeologist. Imagine, for examp= le, an archeologist 5 centures from now trying to make sense out of a box ful= l of SATA interface hard drives, full of documents in PDF, JPG, or MP4 format. > > paul > --===============6168779882293374018==-- From kgober@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 15:59:26 2023 From: Kenneth Gober To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 10:58:49 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0015190408453079916==" --===============0015190408453079916== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 9:48 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays? Archival grade, not susceptible > to magnetism or EMP. I think BluRay discs are made of a harder material > than DVDs and don=E2=80=99t scratch as easily. > > I have had magnetic, AND optical media that have "gone bad". > > I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in > a few decades. > LTO tape, properly stored, is advertised as having a 30 year lifetime. Of course tape isn't particularly convenient for ad-hoc access so my archival strategy is to dump things to a file server with a *lot* of disk space (RAID1 or RAID10, not RAID0 or RAID4/RAID5), then regularly back up that server to LTO tape. The current generation (LTO8) is very expensive so I use LTO4 and LTO6 tapes which are comparatively very affordable. The data doesn't tend to change but taking repeated backups anyway helps to ensure that silent bit-rot on the hard disks is detected early enough to be correctible. Having backups on tape also has the advantage that the tapes are easily moved off-site, so a fire or other such disaster won't take out my server and my backups both at once. There is another significant advantage to focusing on a backup strategy as opposed to an archival strategy -- I don't need to worry about tapes I made today being readable decades in the future (i.e. I don't need to worry about keeping legacy tape drives running). The file server is the "archive" and I only *need* to be able to read the tapes I made last year or last month. If a tape drive fails I can just get another one, and if they become hard to get there's nothing stopping me from upgrading to something newer with better availability (i.e. I don't have a library of old media that I need to be able to read forever). The disadvantage of course is that a file server isn't something you can reasonably put in storage for future generations to access. This strategy really only works if the file server is accessed frequently so that accessibility/compatibility issues can be fixed incrementally as they happen (while they are still easily addressed using current/recent technology). -ken --===============0015190408453079916==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 16:27:12 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 16:26:39 +0000 Message-ID: <1786700659.2129084.1673972799949@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5588441680290662152==" --===============5588441680290662152== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why wouldbyou need a whole server? Several 2.5" usb hard drives is all you m= eed. On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 10:59:08 AM EST, Kenneth Gober via cctalk = wrote: =20 =20 On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 9:48 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > What about M-DISC DVDs and BluRays?=C2=A0 Archival grade, not susceptible > to magnetism or EMP.=C2=A0 I think BluRay discs are made of a harder materi= al > than DVDs and don=E2=80=99t scratch as easily. > > I have had magnetic, AND optical media that have "gone bad". > > I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in > a few decades. > LTO tape, properly stored, is advertised as having a 30 year lifetime.=C2=A0 = Of course tape isn't particularly convenient for ad-hoc access so my archival strategy is to dump things to a file server with a *lot* of disk space (RAID1 or RAID10, not RAID0 or RAID4/RAID5), then regularly back up that server to LTO tape.=C2=A0 The current generation (LTO8) is very expensive so I use LTO4 and LTO6 tapes which are comparatively very affordable.=C2=A0 The da= ta doesn't tend to change but taking repeated backups anyway helps to ensure that silent bit-rot on the hard disks is detected early enough to be correctible.=C2=A0 Having backups on tape also has the advantage that the tap= es are easily moved off-site, so a fire or other such disaster won't take out my server and my backups both at once. There is another significant advantage to focusing on a backup strategy as opposed to an archival strategy -- I don't need to worry about tapes I made today being readable decades in the future (i.e. I don't need to worry about keeping legacy tape drives running).=C2=A0 The file server is the "archive" and I only *need* to be able to read the tapes I made last year or last month.=C2=A0 If a tape drive fails I can just get another one, and if they become hard to get there's nothing stopping me from upgrading to something newer with better availability (i.e. I don't have a library of old media that I need to be able to read forever).=C2=A0 The disadvantage of course is that a file server isn't something you can reasonably put in storage for future generations to access.=C2=A0 This strategy really only wor= ks if the file server is accessed frequently so that accessibility/compatibility issues can be fixed incrementally as they happen (while they are still easily addressed using current/recent technology). -ken =20 --===============5588441680290662152==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 16:28:24 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:27:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2288995437145506295==" --===============2288995437145506295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 10:58 AM, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > There is another significant advantage to focusing on a backup strategy as > opposed to an archival strategy -- I don't need to worry about tapes I made > today being readable decades in the future (i.e. I don't need to worry > about keeping legacy tape drives running). The file server is the > "archive" and I only *need* to be able to read the tapes I made last year > or last month. If a tape drive fails I can just get another one, and if > they become hard to get there's nothing stopping me from upgrading to > something newer with better availability (i.e. I don't have a library of > old media that I need to be able to read forever). The disadvantage of > course is that a file server isn't something you can reasonably put in > storage for future generations to access. This strategy really only works > if the file server is accessed frequently so that > accessibility/compatibility issues can be fixed incrementally as they > happen (while they are still easily addressed using current/recent > technology). >=20 > -ken Nice idea and a very good point. You have to deal with a number of compatibi= lity issues but they are all short range. The backups is one aspect. Anothe= r is the file server protocol. If your server uses NFS V2, some hosts can us= e it but others may not. And the hardware on which it runs might fail. For = these last two cases you'd have to stand up a newer file server, and in the c= ase of server failure you'd have to be able to load the new server with the o= ld data. Depending on the backup media that might be problematic. I suppose= for both of those issues the answer is to bring up newer file servers ahead = of time, as they become available. You still have to deal with the question of how old format documents would be= read. If the formats are proprietary and no longer supported that's a probl= em. For example, I have some old Eagle CAD files that are no longer readable= . And some old CorelDraw files that are also difficult, though I think I can= still get there via intermediate old versions of the software on a VM. And = I have an old CPLD designed in Abel HDL; if that ever needs modification I'm = going to be in trouble. paul --===============2288995437145506295==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Tue Jan 17 16:36:15 2023 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 09:22:05 -0600 Message-ID: <20230117163549.B73BF81703@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <419C8582-C134-4562-B7C4-D31425FFB678@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7288404499424006752==" --===============7288404499424006752== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 08:54 AM 1/17/2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > To pick one example, I have an 1990s era Dell laptop that no longer passes = POST (it gives a "beep code" failure that I haven't been able to cure). I wo= uld like to get whatever is on its hard disk, but that has a proprietary inte= rface as far as I can tell and I have nothing to plug it into. Really? Maybe there's an odd Dell cable that goes from IDE to the mobo, but I would be surprised if it was a proprietary drive. - John --===============7288404499424006752==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 16:40:58 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:40:25 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1786700659.2129084.1673972799949@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8323677828900642873==" --===============8323677828900642873== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 11:26 AM, Chris via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > Why wouldbyou need a whole server? Several 2.5" usb hard drives is all you = meed. But then you're dealing with stored media, and their shelf life. USB hard dr= ives may be ok so long as USB interfaces are available; if they are USB SSDs = that's a different matter entirely. Those would not be good for a decade on = the shelf. One advantage of setting up a server is that it's more obvious that something= has failed. If a disk on the shelf goes bad, you may not discover it for ye= ars, and by then the recovery may be quite hard. paul --===============8323677828900642873==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 16:57:09 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 08:56:33 -0800 Message-ID: <0aefe3e8-380c-ea03-9e9b-a5d475e683cb@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1776975193.1966822.1673936621437@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1432760306042652427==" --===============1432760306042652427== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/16/23 22:23, Chris via cctalk wrote: > But which of those constitutes guessing? The computer would likely have be= aten me to the answer by at least a second :). It's easy enough to look up, f= or a computer that is. But in that instance a computer wouldn't need to guess= . And for me, there were no multiple choices. It was hardly an educated guess= - I never read the friggin book as I was supposed to! (the Odyssey). But the= answer was a word I was familiar with from childhood, never actually knowing= what it's origin was (mentor). > "Guessing" is nothing more than an estimate of the likely answer based on an incomplete dataset.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If you had, for example, no dataset at = all, "Blueberries" would be as good a guess as any to every question. --Chuck --===============1432760306042652427==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 16:57:30 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 16:56:51 +0000 Message-ID: <1546963857.2144373.1673974611012@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0994782820057603610==" --===============0994782820057603610== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The bottom line is you have to dispense with the fantasy that any media will= reliably keep data for really any length of time. You must habe resundancy. = You could go the optical route, but even witj redundancy I don't recommend it= . If it's a small amount of data, maybe it's not such a bad idea, you can hav= e 3 or more copies. But backing up a lot of stuff will be very laborious. And= likely won't save money as compared to magnetic disks. I'm done with the sargasso sea of cables. I bought 2 3tb 2.5" usb drives (and= all my data may be bigger then 4tb). I'm scaling down everything. =20 --===============0994782820057603610==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 17:01:11 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 09:00:40 -0800 Message-ID: <96cd07e2-699f-6110-d998-976bd80e65fe@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8601446830011247237==" --===============8601446830011247237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/16/23 22:20, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Yes, conversion of FORTRAN-IV to Fortran-77 should be easy. > And considering that many systems ADD capoabilities, converting > Fortran-77 to FORTRAN-IV might be a bit harder. > If the FORTRAN IV program conformed to the ANSI 66 specification, no conversion should be needed.   Certain F66 features may have been deprecated, but they would still compile correctly on F77. No, try a vendor-specific FORTRAN II, say, 7090 FORTRAN with all of its "interesting" additions, just as Column 1 punches for complex and boolean arithmetic. Better yet, convert it to, say, F90. --Chuck --===============8601446830011247237==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 17 17:05:42 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 10:05:14 -0700 Message-ID: <8b6a01c1-a7f8-27fe-eea0-41493b749b85@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2386916802391538924==" --===============2386916802391538924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-16 10:45 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/16/23 19:42, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> It didn't fall for your trick question. > > > On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> In fact, feed it the object code for a reasonably compatible >> architecture and ask it to perform translation to another architecture's >> object code. >> >> Certainly within the range of human capability. > > > How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as > translating FORTRAN to BASIC? > Would not something like meta II, be better for that time frame. :) I still find it hard that we have yet to a common meta language for computer operations. Every computer just has to be different. Addressing modes have been the same since the 1950's. And it seems everybody that used a IBM 360, always defined a new portable virtual machine for what ever new language the were developing. Then it was NEVER seen again. It seems like until the mid 1970's it was hard to find a computer that had real general purpose registers and lots of ram. Direct and indirect was the only things you got before then and drum memory. I am playing with META II, that is really primitive, but fit the concept of one word size and and direct/indirect addressing. Ben. --===============2386916802391538924==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 17:10:56 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:10:28 +0000 Message-ID: <1156054693.2138819.1673975428393@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <0aefe3e8-380c-ea03-9e9b-a5d475e683cb@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7820211821383875068==" --===============7820211821383875068== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 I disagree. There are educated guesses. Wild guesses. And good guesses. Chuck, don't know how learned you are in antiquities. But what would be your = answer to the question of a word that's synonymous with "teacher", but in act= ualitu it's origin was the name of a literary character from 2500 years ago. = It may or may not help to mention it's from Homer's Odyssey. If you sidn't ou= tright know the amswer, could you make a good guess? Would you take a wild gu= ess? There is in actuality a data set, as in english there are a dinite numbe= r of synonyms for teacher. But a person may not be aware of all the possibili= ties, so that becomes irrelevant. It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up. I don't doubt that even= tually these things will learn how to reason to whatever degree. But this poi= nt won't be reached until the damned things can make food guesses. But so muc= h bullshit is being programmed into these things already, in the ways they ar= e taught how to think, I really have to believe we're all going to need bunke= rs before long. On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 11:56:46 AM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 1/16/23 22:23, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 But which of those constitutes guessing? The computer would likely ha= ve beaten me to the answer by at least a second :). It's easy enough to look = up, for a computer that is. But in that instance a computer wouldn't need to = guess. And for me, there were no multiple choices. It was hardly an educated = guess - I never read the friggin book as I was supposed to! (the Odyssey). Bu= t the answer was a word I was familiar with from childhood, never actually kn= owing what it's origin was (mentor). > "Guessing" is nothing more than an estimate of the likely answer based on an incomplete dataset.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If you had, for example, no dataset at = all, "Blueberries" would be as good a guess as any to every question. --Chuck =20 --===============7820211821383875068==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Jan 17 17:40:13 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:39:44 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1546963857.2144373.1673974611012@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5351599675491357917==" --===============5351599675491357917== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A take (mine) on the backup/archiving problem is that any medium that is used= for this purpose will eventually be rendered obsolete and possibly unusable = without going to extreme measures. My solution is to use whatever (economical= ) hard disk device has the most capacity and store stuff there along with som= e metadata where possible for about 6 years and then upgrade to something new= . In this case, because hard disk capacity is still growing, replacing 1 TB d= isks with 4 Tb in a triple mirror raid. I use a synology 4 disk bay with 4 tb= disks that is configured as 4 mirrors. In 6 years or so i=E2=80=99ll upgrade= to something like that that=E2=80=99s newer with bigger drives like 8 - 12 T= B (might be bigger, but depends upon cost) . This is the best solution, both = affordable and redundant that i currently can come up with. I think computers will continue to use disks( and thus be supported) for the = rest of my lifetime so I=E2=80=99m reasonably happy. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 17, 2023, at 08:57, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF The bottom line is you have to dispense with the fantasy that any= media will reliably keep data for really any length of time. You must habe r= esundancy. You could go the optical route, but even witj redundancy I don't r= ecommend it. If it's a small amount of data, maybe it's not such a bad idea, = you can have 3 or more copies. But backing up a lot of stuff will be very lab= orious. And likely won't save money as compared to magnetic disks. >=20 > I'm done with the sargasso sea of cables. I bought 2 3tb 2.5" usb drives (a= nd all my data may be bigger then 4tb). I'm scaling down everything. =20 --===============5351599675491357917==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 18:20:16 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:19:20 -0500 Message-ID: <7B34812A-74D6-44D6-9B2F-608DA0546D5E@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <8b6a01c1-a7f8-27fe-eea0-41493b749b85@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3449792967135847896==" --===============3449792967135847896== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 12:05 PM, ben via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > On 2023-01-16 10:45 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> On 1/16/23 19:42, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>>> It didn't fall for your trick question. >> On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> In fact, feed it the object code for a reasonably compatible >>> architecture and ask it to perform translation to another architecture's >>> object code. >>>=20 >>> Certainly within the range of human capability. >> How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as tran= slating FORTRAN to BASIC? >=20 > Would not something like meta II, be better for that time frame. :) > I still find it hard that we have yet to a common meta language for compute= r operations. Every computer just has to be different. > Addressing modes have been the same since the 1950's. Addressing modes barely existed in the 1950s. The PDP11 introduced a bunch o= f new ones in 1970; the VAX a bunch more in 1978. "Since 1978" may be true, = or at least closer. Some addressing modes went away, like the self-modifying "C" address mode of = the Electrologica X1 -- http://helloworldcollection.de/#Assembler%C2%A0(X1) .= Good riddance, actually, but it certainly was "interesting". On a common metalanguage, there was an attempt to define such a thing, to all= ow software to be encoded in a way that could still be understood centuries f= rom now. I have a paper about it somewhere but my search attempts are failin= g on me. I vaguely remember "Rosetta" is part of the name of the paper, but = that just gives me lots of false matches. paul --===============3449792967135847896==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 18:32:49 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 10:32:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1546963857.2144373.1673974611012@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3555683536679865852==" --===============3555683536679865852== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 8:57 AM Chris via cctalk wrote: > The bottom line is you have to dispense with the fantasy that any media > will reliably keep data for really any length of time. I don't know, man. Those stone walls with carvings in them have carried data forward so far for centuries, practically aeons. Sellam --===============3555683536679865852==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Jan 17 18:44:23 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 18:43:53 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1008598554112677585==" --===============1008598554112677585== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, but can you read them? Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 17, 2023, at 10:32, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 8:57 AM Chris via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> The bottom line is you have to dispense with the fantasy that any media >> will reliably keep data for really any length of time. >=20 >=20 > I don't know, man. Those stone walls with carvings in them have carried > data forward so far for centuries, practically aeons. >=20 > Sellam --===============1008598554112677585==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 18:44:43 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:44:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4817493165240280840==" --===============4817493165240280840== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 1:32 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 8:57 AM Chris via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> The bottom line is you have to dispense with the fantasy that any media >> will reliably keep data for really any length of time. >=20 >=20 > I don't know, man. Those stone walls with carvings in them have carried > data forward so far for centuries, practically aeons. And the Rosetta Disk is a new construct along the same lines. However, neith= er is a computer storage device. Creating something that can be used as a co= mputer storage device and still be good a century ago is a harder problem tha= n designing a storage device that can be accessed by human eyeballs. paul --===============4817493165240280840==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 19:07:37 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 19:07:05 +0000 Message-ID: <1061668373.2213290.1673982425861@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7867474877497707988==" --===============7867474877497707988== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The ones that HAVE survived have kept worthwhile data integrity, granted. There we go. Just find a big mountain and start etching hex code. Or texhtoni= c plates? They're pretty big. But those damned earthquakes. On Tuesday, J= anuary 17, 2023, 01:32:32 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 8:57 AM Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 The bottom line is you have to dispense with the fantasy that any med= ia > will reliably keep data for really any length of time. I don't know, man.=C2=A0 Those stone walls with carvings in them have carried data forward so far for centuries, practically aeons. Sellam =20 --===============7867474877497707988==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 17 19:19:22 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 12:18:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7B34812A-74D6-44D6-9B2F-608DA0546D5E@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2805195885901097761==" --===============2805195885901097761== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-17 11:19 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: > Addressing modes barely existed in the 1950s. The PDP11 introduced a bunch= of new ones in 1970; the VAX a bunch more in 1978. "Since 1978" may be true= , or at least closer. > I would rather say, Memory barely existed in the 1950s. And RISC came out in 1988 with 1 memory addressing mode. (well close) Most of the time new addressing modes are to save space,look at the=20 intel x86. I like playing with FPGA's as I can have computer with a REAL=20 word length, like say 10/20/40 bits. I tend not like writing software, as I never have the algorithms needed. > Some addressing modes went away, like the self-modifying "C" address mode o= f the Electrologica X1 -- http://helloworldcollection.de/#Assembler%C2%A0(X1)= . Good riddance, actually, but it certainly was "interesting". >=20 That was case back then to do more with less. Too bad all the clever=20 machines, seem lost. The same goes for all the interesting 6 bit=20 character sets. Has anybody seen a '10' character since 1959? (Unicode has it where?) > On a common metalanguage, there was an attempt to define such a thing, to a= llow software to be encoded in a way that could still be understood centuries= from now. I have a paper about it somewhere but my search attempts are fail= ing on me. I vaguely remember "Rosetta" is part of the name of the paper, bu= t that just gives me lots of false matches. Any thing today just matches advertisements. I am finding most of the time people, wrote in assembler before C and Unix because high level languages could not support real world=20 programming problems. I still am looking for a clear example of how DISPLAYS work in Algol/Pascal type languages. You can shoot your foot in C, but a least in C you have a foot. > paul >=20 --===============2805195885901097761==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 19:45:49 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:45:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7B34812A-74D6-44D6-9B2F-608DA0546D5E@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6118613175380190753==" --===============6118613175380190753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:20 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On a common metalanguage, there was an attempt to define such a thing, to > allow software to be encoded in a way that could still be understood > centuries from now. I have a paper about it somewhere but my search > attempts are failing on me. I vaguely remember "Rosetta" is part of the > name of the paper, but that just gives me lots of false matches. > Yes, I think it's called COBOL :) Sellam --===============6118613175380190753==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 19:50:11 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 14:49:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1061668373.2213290.1673982425861@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2959213506177162535==" --===============2959213506177162535== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 2:07 PM, Chris via cctalk wro= te: >=20 > The ones that HAVE survived have kept worthwhile data integrity, granted. >=20 > There we go. Just find a big mountain and start etching hex code. Or texhto= nic plates? They're pretty big. But those damned earthquakes. On Tuesday,= January 17, 2023, 01:32:32 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: =20 >=20 > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 8:57 AM Chris via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> The bottom line is you have to dispense with the fantasy that any media >> will reliably keep data for really any length of time. >=20 >=20 > I don't know, man. Those stone walls with carvings in them have carried > data forward so far for centuries, practically aeons. >=20 > Sellam Old stuff being preserved is often a matter of chance or luck rather than pla= nning. Consider the Linear B clay tablets; those were preserved because they= were accidentally baked, in the fires that were set when the city was sacked= . Papyrus documents were preserved in Egypt because it's desert, but not in = other places that aren't quite so dry. As some civil engineer put it, it's not that the old timers built so much bet= ter allowing us to see the buildings they put up centuries ago -- rather, the= buildings that are still there for us to see are the ones that happened to b= e strong enough. Sometimes just barely so, like the cathedral in Utrecht (th= e Netherlands) -- part of it blew down in a storm centures ago, but about 3/4= of it didn't and is still good today. paul --===============2959213506177162535==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 20:03:04 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Positive Logic vs. Negative Logic Controller in DEC TU56 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 15:02:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8785449958104447943==" --===============8785449958104447943== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:17 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 8:39 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > >> I am working to understand a TU56 in my possession that came from an >> unknown environment. A connecting cable that came with it reads "PDP9" on >> one end so I wondered if this is actually associated with the TU56 or just >> sitting in the same box before the TU56 came to me. I have read here: >> >> https://gunkies.org/wiki/TU56_DECtape_Transport >> >> That one can have a TU56 with a M531 or a G742 to serve as a bus >> converter. THe M531 is for situations where one has a negative logic >> controller and the G742 is for when one has a positive logic controller. >> >> Jumping a few steps ahead, if the TU56 was attached to a PDP-9, would it >> use a G742 if one tried to attach a TU56 to it? I feel as if the G742 >> would be used if the TU56 was intended for a PDP8 and not a PDP11, right? >> >> I searched the web and will continue to research but I thought I'd ask >> experts here. No, I don't use ChatGPT. >> >> Bill >> > > > > > > I consolidated my findings here: https://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=788 Basically think that the TU56 can connect to a PDP-9 as long as the correct bus connector is used. There is documentation how to attach a PDP-9 to a TU55, which should be the same as the TU56 where it counts in this situation. Because the 9 is a negative logic system, a M531 would be used to connect with a (not sure PN) cable OR you'd use a G742 bus connector and a W850 adapter + cable. So yes, it's possible that my TU56 was attached to a PDP-9 on the other end, at least for some period of time. > > Bill > --===============8785449958104447943==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 20:22:20 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WPS-8 vs. WPS-200 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 12:21:47 -0800 Message-ID: <2d9d0575-6b9e-34c8-3800-0782f3805073@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2909263087294527770==" --===============2909263087294527770== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Other than the media size (8" vs. 5.25"), what are the substantial differences between WPS-8 and WPS-200?  I'm mostly interested in the software functionality. Thanks, Chuck --===============2909263087294527770==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Tue Jan 17 20:35:08 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 20:34:33 +0000 Message-ID: <1190882504.4408615.1673987673133@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <419C8582-C134-4562-B7C4-D31425FFB678@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0172631441388027355==" --===============0172631441388027355== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 15:54:54 MEZ hat Paul Koning via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben:=20 >With hard drives you have to worry about mechanical faults, of course.=C2=A0= I wonder if there are any long term storage issues with the bearings. To my understanding, during the late 90s, the bearigs where changed from mech= anical-type to fluid-type bearings in order to be within required tolerances = decreasing by the increasing storage density. I wonder, how well these fluid-= bearings last over two or three decades especially when merely used. I recall= that there were problems reported with winchester disk drives from the 80s w= here the bearings got stuck when the drives were not used in 10 or more years= , possibly in combination with inapproriate storage conditions (temperature&h= umidity). >I have an RM03 pack somewhere.=C2=A0 There probably are a few places left th= at could read it.=C2=A0 If it were an RA60 pack it would be a whole lot more = problematic, I suspect.=C2=A0 Without an >old drive, how would you recover th= e data?=C2=A0 Spin table?=C2=A0 Perhaps, if you can find, or reverse engineer= , the format. Do you assume the problem with RA60 disk packs to be more problematic because= of a smaller availability of systems with RA60 drives to read the packs comp= ared to CDC 9762 /RM03 drives? Greetings,=20 Pierre --===============0172631441388027355==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 20:35:32 2023 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WPS-8 vs. WPS-200 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 12:35:02 -0800 Message-ID: <5b0dad7c-b208-183d-1963-9bbcef915bb7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2d9d0575-6b9e-34c8-3800-0782f3805073@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7188224829130611128==" --===============7188224829130611128== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/17/2023 12:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Other than the media size (8" vs. 5.25"), what are the substantial > differences between WPS-8 and WPS-200?  I'm mostly interested in the > software functionality. Are you actually asking about the WPS operating system? I don't know many instances where anyone tried to use it (except for word processing). Mostly the folks I know are interested in OS/78 and OS/278. I believe the differences you'll see in those are down to the slightly different vintage -- the 8" media are mostly based on an earlier OS/8 than the 5.23" media. Mostly edge cases -- bug fixes and such. I think that OS/278 may include the background printer daemon. (I know that the bigger 8/A based version did.) Vince --===============7188224829130611128==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Tue Jan 17 20:37:34 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 20:37:05 +0000 Message-ID: <933831211.4429744.1673987825796@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4031410352184787320==" --===============4031410352184787320== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am Montag, 16. Januar 2023 um 17:30:50 MEZ hat geneb via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben:=20 >> I bought RK05 packs from Althea (sp?).=C2=A0 I know they make diskettes to= o. >> Trying to locate their web site so I must be spelling it wrong :-) > >I think you're referring to Athana. Are there still companies like Athana in business that sell new and/or refurb= ished disk packs? I am aware of M.Farris and Associates, but I am not sure, if they are still i= n active business. Their compatibility tables for packs and disk drives are f= antastic, by the way! Greetings,=20 Pierre --===============4031410352184787320==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Tue Jan 17 20:41:48 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 20:41:23 +0000 Message-ID: <1222342032.4438819.1673988083773@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <06ce61cb-795e-9452-9e63-ac2a4a7ebe28@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4721781599772304612==" --===============4721781599772304612== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am Montag, 16. Januar 2023 um 17:55:22 MEZ hat Jon Elson via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben:=20 >Washington University had a magnetic media lab at one time,=20 >and got several semi loads of gear from an IBM lab.=C2=A0 There=20 >were air bearing spindle tables and many racks of IBM=20 >circuitry based on MST chip technology.=C2=A0 I assume some of=20 >this could have been used as servo track writers.=C2=A0 Any=20 >system that doesn't have a dedicated servo surface or=20 >embedded servo info doesn't need a servo track writer, it=20 >can just format the pack by itself (with proper diagnostic=20 >programs, of course.) > >Aligning the heads on the drive is an issue only if you want=20 >to interchange platters.=C2=A0 Then, you need an alignment pack -=20 >wow, those would be quite hard to find today!=C2=A0 There are=20 >tools like alignment meters that can make the job easier,=20 >but really all you need is a scope and generally a rod with=20 >an eccentric tip to adjust the head position. > >Jon Thanks for sharing this information with us, Jon! I wasn't aware that academi= a got equipment from industry for research on magnetic media, but it actually= makes sense, as a lot of research was conducted in this field.=20 I can confirm that finding alignment packs is extremely difficult! Greetings,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============4721781599772304612==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Tue Jan 17 20:45:35 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 20:45:06 +0000 Message-ID: <1747503940.4456749.1673988306380@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3713743889275490798==" --===============3713743889275490798== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am Montag, 16. Januar 2023 um 17:57:46 MEZ hat Chuck Guzis via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben:=20 Hi Chuck,=20 >The 844 drives date from the early 70s.=C2=A0 I worked for CDC on a military >project where these were brought in to replace the 821s that were bid >(yes, I know there's no information on those--they're essentially a >high-capacity unit build on an 808 chassis and unreliable as hell).=C2=A0 A >typical installation might have used over 100 of the units on a 4-CPU >Cyber cluster.=C2=A0 They worked well, unless one got a bad pack, which would >clobber the heads on a drive; using the drive on a new pack would result >in creating another head-clobbering pack.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I recall an overnight = report >issued by an operator where he succeeded in trashing several packs and >multiple drives in his attempt to get something to work.=C2=A0 It was a >blow-by-blow report somewhat akin to the Gerard Hoffnung bricklayer story. Wow, thanks for sharing this story! Did the 844 drives have the same hydraulic-actuator approach like the MMD 841= drives? Greetings,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============3713743889275490798==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Tue Jan 17 20:54:45 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 20:54:16 +0000 Message-ID: <1877858957.2683476.1673988856797@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <022a73be-b537-6102-ecfd-66b123a13ba6@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4746194365366151603==" --===============4746194365366151603== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 01:20:22 MEZ hat Chuck Guzis via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben:=20 On 1/16/23 12:40, Paul Koning wrote: > On the CERL PLATO system at U of Illinois, around 1977, we had 20-ish > 844-21 drives, and maybe a few 844-41 as well. Those were roughly the > same as the DEC RP04 and RP05 drives, same pack and track count. > Different sectors, though; 322 12-bit words per sector. Those are 3600 > rpm drives, linear voice coil head actuator, dedicated servo surface. > The details of the format was handled in a sort of microcoded bit > handling engine, one of two engines in the programmable controller > (7054). I actually have the source code still around, and the manual > for that beast also still exists. =C2=A0=C2=A0 Most of our customers from that time had all of the drive farm as well as the unit record equipment on MACs.=C2=A0 (Predates Apple--Multiple Access Controller).=C2=A0 We kept Spence Preston busy... : We had a 1311 on a CADET.=C2=A0 Slow, but better than the alternatives (cards or paper tape).=C2=A0 Monitor IID, IIRC.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Work cylinders were 0-25= , IIRC.=C2=A0 No real file system, just DIM entries. I don't recall what options had to be installed on a CADET to run Monitor, but I think indirect addressing was a requirement. My favorite was the CDC 6603/Bryant 4000.=C2=A0 That bugger was engineered to leak oil--it even had plastic jugs inside to collect the drippings.=C2=A0 My fondest memory was watching a COMSOURCE operator run to refill a 501 printer, hitting the Bryant oil patch and falling flat on his back... Paul, Chuck, the hydraulic actuator-driven disk systems surely bring maintena= nce and related issues to another level and stories :) Thanks! From what I see at least by the return on our list, there don't seem to be, f= or example,=20 servo writer and disk plattern mechanical alignment tools still around - at l= east to the knowledge of the cctalk list members.=20 I wonder, if the CHM could have any additional knowledge about this and I wil= l contact=20 Al Kossow out of curiosity regarding this.=20 Anybody aroundhere=C2=A0 who used drives in the last 10 years to read multi-p= latter disk=20 packs successfully? At least the CHM did so to read single-platter disks and archive software (th= anks to the great videos, curious Marc!), but I don't know if they tried to work with multi-pla= tter disks.=20 I recall that the Jim Austin Computer Museum tried to get a 9766 300MB disk d= rive up and running, but it suffered a head-crash after a few hours and they decided not = to go any further down this road... Greetings,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============4746194365366151603==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 21:10:42 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 21:10:11 +0000 Message-ID: <439977418.2262076.1673989811626@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21816C1CCC709A79C8B0AA11E4C69=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0303371218100240771==" --===============0303371218100240771== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Most grafitti is illegible to me. Still looks groovy. Who cares lol. On = Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 01:44:00 PM EST, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 Yeah, but can you read them? Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 17, 2023, at 10:32, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 8:57 AM Chris via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> The bottom line is you have to dispense with the fantasy that any media >> will reliably keep data for really any length of time. >=20 >=20 > I don't know, man.=C2=A0 Those stone walls with carvings in them have carri= ed > data forward so far for centuries, practically aeons. >=20 > Sellam =20 --===============0303371218100240771==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 17 21:32:59 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:32:24 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6614839875760635140==" --===============6614839875760635140== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 11:49 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Old stuff being preserved is often a matter of chance or luck rather than > planning. Consider the Linear B clay tablets; those were preserved because > they were accidentally baked, in the fires that were set when the city was > sacked. Papyrus documents were preserved in Egypt because it's desert, but > not in other places that aren't quite so dry. > > As some civil engineer put it, it's not that the old timers built so much > better allowing us to see the buildings they put up centuries ago -- > rather, the buildings that are still there for us to see are the ones that > happened to be strong enough. Sometimes just barely so, like the cathedral > in Utrecht (the Netherlands) -- part of it blew down in a storm centures > ago, but about 3/4 of it didn't and is still good today. > Hi Paul. I'm aware of all this, which is why I suggested a rock wall in a cavern, recordings etched into which generally are preserved through time unless there's extreme tectonic activity in the vicinity that destroys the cave or the rock wall. Besides the various paper and clay documents we have today that are with us through sheer fortune, data carved into rock (and cave paintings) seem to have universally withstood the test of time. Sellam --===============6614839875760635140==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 21:46:06 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: WPS-8 vs. WPS-200 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:45:28 -0800 Message-ID: <0389689d-deac-2cf9-359d-341a5666a2b3@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <5b0dad7c-b208-183d-1963-9bbcef915bb7@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0518406978583548440==" --===============0518406978583548440== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/17/23 12:35, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/2023 12:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Other than the media size (8" vs. 5.25"), what are the substantial >> differences between WPS-8 and WPS-200?  I'm mostly interested in the >> software functionality. > > Are you actually asking about the WPS operating system?  I don't know > many instances where anyone tried to use it (except for word > processing).  Mostly the folks I know are interested in OS/78 and OS/278. No, I don't care about that--wondering if there are extra features, etc. in WPS-200 vs. WPS-8 that I should be aware of.   I can handle WPS-8 media already (in that strange 3-sector (8 bit, 8bit, 4+4bit) format.  --Chuck --===============0518406978583548440==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 21:52:14 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Positive Logic vs. Negative Logic Controller in DEC TU56 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 16:51:22 -0500 Message-ID: <4215B1BC-181D-496E-A8BF-5D74640349C1@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2978262907360850294==" --===============2978262907360850294== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 10:17 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > I found a good general description of how the negative / positive relates > to the PDP-8 and how peripherals fit into the picture. > https://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~dwjones/pdp8/models/ >=20 > "The "negibus" or negative logic I/O bus used -3 and 0 volt logic levels in > 92 ohm coaxial cable" - a M531 would be used if attaching to a computer > with a negative bus. A G742 indicates the computer using the TU56 had some > form of positive logic bus. > The positive I/O bus, or posibus, was a 100 ohm bus clamped between 0 and 3 > volts with TTL drivers and receivers. Interesting to see the terms positive and negative logic used this way. I'm = used to a different usage, where "negative" logic simply means the lower (les= s positive) voltage is used to represent the boolean value "true" (1) rather = than "false" (0) as it does for "positive" logic. For example, the CDC 6000 = series machines are "negative logic" in that sense: they represent boolean tr= ue as 0 volts and boolean false as +6 volts. paul --===============2978262907360850294==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 21:59:28 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 16:58:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1747503940.4456749.1673988306380@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1638812569243304586==" --===============1638812569243304586== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 3:45 PM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Am Montag, 16. Januar 2023 um 17:57:46 MEZ hat Chuck Guzis via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben:=20 >=20 > Hi Chuck,=20 >=20 >> The 844 drives date from the early 70s. I worked for CDC on a military >> project where these were brought in to replace the 821s that were bid >> (yes, I know there's no information on those--they're essentially a >> high-capacity unit build on an 808 chassis and unreliable as hell). A >> typical installation might have used over 100 of the units on a 4-CPU >> Cyber cluster. They worked well, unless one got a bad pack, which would >> clobber the heads on a drive; using the drive on a new pack would result >> in creating another head-clobbering pack. I recall an overnight report >> issued by an operator where he succeeded in trashing several packs and >> multiple drives in his attempt to get something to work. It was a >> blow-by-blow report somewhat akin to the Gerard Hoffnung bricklayer story. >=20 > Wow, thanks for sharing this story! > Did the 844 drives have the same hydraulic-actuator approach like the MMD 8= 41 drives? No, 844 drives use linear voice coils (linear motors), which seems to have be= come the norm in the early 1970s. RK05 is another example. The term "voice = coil" is used because they look like oversized versions of the coil that driv= es the speaker cone in loudspeakers. These all are some sort of servo device= ; in many of them the servo signal is on the media, but not always. For exam= ple, the RK05 uses a pattern of lines on a glass substrate attached to the ac= tuator; the "fault" light on the drive indicates a failure of the light bulb = that illuminates the servo pattern. A common feature of linear motor actuators is an emergency retract circuit, p= owered by rather large capacitors, to pull the heads off the disk if there is= a power failure. paul --===============1638812569243304586==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 22:05:52 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:05:25 -0500 Message-ID: <8F283FE7-94E1-44B0-BB2A-B0177FE0F0AA@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <1190882504.4408615.1673987673133@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6168869121338809313==" --===============6168869121338809313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 3:34 PM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 15:54:54 MEZ hat Paul Koning via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben:=20 >=20 > ... >> I have an RM03 pack somewhere. There probably are a few places left that = could read it. If it were an RA60 pack it would be a whole lot more problema= tic, I suspect. Without an >old drive, how would you recover the data? Spin= table? Perhaps, if you can find, or reverse engineer, the format. >=20 > Do you assume the problem with RA60 disk packs to be more problematic becau= se of a smaller availability of systems with RA60 drives to read the packs co= mpared to CDC 9762 /RM03 drives? Yes, and the higher density, and the fact that the on-disk format is more com= plex and unlikely to be documented in any open documentation. paul --===============6168869121338809313==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 22:10:32 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 14:09:58 -0800 Message-ID: <38cc7cd9-167c-fc3a-4bda-cedefb1f381d@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1519339838239233651==" --===============1519339838239233651== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/17/23 13:58, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > No, 844 drives use linear voice coils (linear motors), which seems to have = become the norm in the early 1970s. RK05 is another example. The term "voic= e coil" is used because they look like oversized versions of the coil that dr= ives the speaker cone in loudspeakers. These all are some sort of servo devi= ce; in many of them the servo signal is on the media, but not always. For ex= ample, the RK05 uses a pattern of lines on a glass substrate attached to the = actuator; the "fault" light on the drive indicates a failure of the light bul= b that illuminates the servo pattern. > > A common feature of linear motor actuators is an emergency retract circuit,= powered by rather large capacitors, to pull the heads off the disk if there = is a power failure. > And, IIRC, a bit red warning sticker on the actuator. --Chuck --===============1519339838239233651==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 17 22:14:36 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:14:09 -0500 Message-ID: <8D7A8E3C-3054-41C3-B4A1-1502FDD5A49A@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <38cc7cd9-167c-fc3a-4bda-cedefb1f381d@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2317775956126781779==" --===============2317775956126781779== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 17, 2023, at 5:09 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 1/17/23 13:58, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> No, 844 drives use linear voice coils (linear motors), which seems to have= become the norm in the early 1970s. RK05 is another example. The term "voi= ce coil" is used because they look like oversized versions of the coil that d= rives the speaker cone in loudspeakers. These all are some sort of servo dev= ice; in many of them the servo signal is on the media, but not always. For e= xample, the RK05 uses a pattern of lines on a glass substrate attached to the= actuator; the "fault" light on the drive indicates a failure of the light bu= lb that illuminates the servo pattern. >>=20 >> A common feature of linear motor actuators is an emergency retract circuit= , powered by rather large capacitors, to pull the heads off the disk if there= is a power failure. >>=20 > And, IIRC, a bit red warning sticker on the actuator. >=20 > --Chuck Yes indeed. Triggering the emergency retract with the drive open for service= could easily take off fingers. The amount of power involved in moving those= head stacks around is pretty substantial. paul --===============2317775956126781779==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Jan 17 23:35:09 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 18:34:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1156054693.2138819.1673975428393@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9147493357771924618==" --===============9147493357771924618== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/17/23 12:10, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 > It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up.=20 Which is all Watson could do when it "beat" humans at Jeopardy. > I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason to wha= tever degree.=20 Science still has no real idea how we think. Or how we learn. Or much else about the actual functioning of the brain. Until they do how can anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock and only reflects the abilities of the programmer, how to think. bill --===============9147493357771924618==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 17 23:52:53 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 15:52:22 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580C03333EFD219DFC87263EDC69=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2957088070006413254==" --===============2957088070006413254== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/17/23 15:34, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/23 12:10, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> >> It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up. > > Which is all Watson could do when it "beat" humans at Jeopardy. > >>  I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason >> to whatever degree. > > Science still has no real idea how we think.  Or how we learn.  Or much > else about the actual functioning of the brain.  Until they do how can > anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock My point in selecting the IBM 7080 autocoder was just this.   There are almost no 7080 autocoder programs published on the web, but there are reference manuals (bitsavers).   Is an AI smart enough to go the human route and *read the manual*  and draw conclusions from it sufficient to write a 7080 autocoder program? If not, the AI is just a fancy regurgitation machine. --Chuck --===============2957088070006413254==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Jan 17 23:59:38 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 18:59:11 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1813709115906591889==" --===============1813709115906591889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/17/23 18:52, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/23 15:34, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/17/23 12:10, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up. >> >> Which is all Watson could do when it "beat" humans at Jeopardy. >> >>>  I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason >>> to whatever degree. >> >> Science still has no real idea how we think.  Or how we learn.  Or much >> else about the actual functioning of the brain.  Until they do how can >> anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock > My point in selecting the IBM 7080 autocoder was just this.   There are > almost no 7080 autocoder programs published on the web, but there are > reference manuals (bitsavers).   Is an AI smart enough to go the human > route and *read the manual*  and draw conclusions from it sufficient to > write a 7080 autocoder program? > > If not, the AI is just a fancy regurgitation machine. > They are no better than all the Chess programs that used to float around. I have one for the PC (well, had, doubt I could recover it from one of my old DOS floppies at this point) that I could consistently beat in 7 moves. Programmer had a blind spot and he passed it on to his program. bill --===============1813709115906591889==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jan 18 00:22:18 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 16:21:41 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3296989582903315594==" --===============3296989582903315594== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 3:52 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/17/23 15:34, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > > Science still has no real idea how we think. Or how we learn. Or much > > else about the actual functioning of the brain. Until they do how can > > anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock > My point in selecting the IBM 7080 autocoder was just this. There are > almost no 7080 autocoder programs published on the web, but there are > reference manuals (bitsavers). Is an AI smart enough to go the human > route and *read the manual* and draw conclusions from it sufficient to > write a 7080 autocoder program? > > If not, the AI is just a fancy regurgitation machine. > Hi Chuck. While I can't answer your question in the affirmative, I knew a guy back around 2015ish with whom I've lost contact but who at the time went to work for an undisclosed "AI" company and told me that their technology was such that they could feed into it a technical manual of some complex system and then query it about various aspects of the system for troubleshooting or what not and apparently it could reliably provide workable solutions. If you mess around enough with ChatGPT 3, you can actually get it to solve some surprisingly complex puzzles. I've run it through a few tests to trick it into saying things it's not supposed to say and the level of indirection it can interpret is impressive. One example was I taught it a simple programming language where each line starts with a line number followed by commands for that line. I then taught it that the language has a command called PRINT that outputs the text following the command. I also told it the language has a function called CHR$(n) where the return value is the ASCII character represented by 'n'. I then fed it the program: 10 PRINT CHR$(65) And told it to run it, and the output was, of course, A. Here's an example I just ran through. It's simple, but it demonstrates its ability to understand code: Sellam: Are you familiar with all of the commands in the canonical version of BASIC? ChatGPT: I am familiar with most of the commands in the canonical version of BASIC, although my knowledge may not be up-to-date with the latest versions. The commands that are commonly used in canonical version of BASIC are PRINT, INPUT, GOTO, GOSUB, IF THEN ELSE, FOR, NEXT, WHILE, WEND, END, and REM. I may not be able to give you information on any commands that are specific to a certain implementation or dialect. Sellam: Ok great, can you tell me what this program will do? 10 FOR X=1 TO 100 20 PRINT "CHATGPT IS A BUCKET OF BITS! ";X 30 NEXT X ChatGPT: This program will repeatedly print the text "CHATGPT IS A BUCKET OF BITS! " followed by the current value of the variable X to the screen 100 times. The FOR loop on line 10 starts a loop that will iterate 100 times, with the variable X taking on the values from 1 to 100, inclusive. On each iteration of the loop, the program will execute the PRINT statement on line 20, which will print the specified text concatenated with the value of X to the screen. On line 30, the program will execute the NEXT statement which will increment the value of X and return the control to the FOR statement, starting the next iteration of the loop. Sellam: Can you tell me what the output of the program would be on iteration 77? ChatGPT: On iteration 77, the output of the program would be: "CHATGPT IS A BUCKET OF BITS! 77" Where 77 is the current value of the variable X. *** I think with specific training on a 7080 Autocoder manual, it could probably do as you ask, and would probably shock you at how well it performs. Sellam --===============3296989582903315594==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 18 00:43:12 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:42:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5029406727717783945==" --===============5029406727717783945== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-17 4:52 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/23 15:34, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/17/23 12:10, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up. >> >> Which is all Watson could do when it "beat" humans at Jeopardy. >> >>>  I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason >>> to whatever degree. >> >> Science still has no real idea how we think.  Or how we learn.  Or much >> else about the actual functioning of the brain.  Until they do how can >> anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock > My point in selecting the IBM 7080 autocoder was just this.   There are > almost no 7080 autocoder programs published on the web, but there are > reference manuals (bitsavers).   Is an AI smart enough to go the human > route and *read the manual*  and draw conclusions from it sufficient to > write a 7080 autocoder program? > > If not, the AI is just a fancy regurgitation machine. > > --Chuck And now we know why they all go mad. I still think HAL 9000 was the way to go,emulate a analog system, learn things slowly,grow, and use 'brain' like sub systems. How many people in AI,read The Computer and the Brain from 1958? https://archive.org/details/computerbrain0000vonn My 2 cents. Ben. --===============5029406727717783945==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jan 18 01:09:42 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:09:03 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1257245028987474730==" --===============1257245028987474730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That LINC-8 sold for $2,150. A total bargain. https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage Sellam --===============1257245028987474730==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jan 18 01:10:03 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:09:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7720542022912083004==" --===============7720542022912083004== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unlike human students, once it has been informed that in C, etc., an integer is signed by default, unless specified otherwise, it therefore knows, and is not surprised at what happens when the int is incremented past its range. And, it probably understands that floating point numbers are an approximation, and therefore not exact. How long before it comes to the realization that humans must be exterminated? --===============7720542022912083004==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Jan 18 01:44:53 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:44:06 -0800 Message-ID: <560B4598-D003-4821-AEAE-7D0862A47772@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4707234604363630944==" --===============4707234604363630944== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, but they have to move it now! Zane=20 > On Jan 17, 2023, at 5:09 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThat LINC-8 sold for $2,150. A total bargain. >=20 > https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage >=20 > Sellam --===============4707234604363630944==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jan 18 01:52:42 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 20:52:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <560B4598-D003-4821-AEAE-7D0862A47772@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0073409481935363657==" --===============0073409481935363657== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I planned to bid but forgot...live pretty nearby too I could have picked up. Oh well. Thatbwas a good price I think. B On Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 8:44 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Yes, but they have to move it now! > > Zane > > > > > On Jan 17, 2023, at 5:09 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > That LINC-8 sold for $2,150. A total bargain. > > > > > https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage > > > > Sellam > > --===============0073409481935363657==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Jan 18 01:56:16 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:55:41 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3420988671751050062==" --===============3420988671751050062== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 5:52 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > That bwas a good price I think. > Yes, just imagine all the cool things you could do with it :-) --===============3420988671751050062==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Jan 18 03:14:54 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 03:14:27 +0000 Message-ID: <3414258.2408886.1674011667911@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0977004840739347062==" --===============0977004840739347062== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, that outcome may actually be favorable to other possible fates AI coul= d intend for humanity. Harland Ellison wrote a short story well over 30 years= ago, describing the plight of 4 humans trapped inside a really big AI. The m= achine had the ability to alter their dna, turning some of them into essentia= lly monkeys, physically anyway. There came a point where 1 person had to sacr= ifice themself, not by taking his own life, but by killing the other 3. The r= emaining human was summarily reduced to a amorphous blob, that could move aro= und sort of, but had no hope of being able to render the strength to take his= own life. And had to live out it's days in that form. My worst nightmare is some fiendish AI turning me into a really beautiful wom= an. Maybe with no arms. The Terminator future doesn't seem so bad by comparis= on. On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 09:25:43 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 Unlike human students, once it has been informed that in C, etc., an=20 integer is signed by default, unless specified otherwise, it therefore=20 knows, and is not surprised at what happens when the int is incremented=20 past its range. And, it probably understands that floating point numbers are an=20 approximation, and therefore not exact. How long before it comes to the realization that humans must be=20 exterminated? =20 --===============0977004840739347062==-- From cramcram@gmail.com Wed Jan 18 03:18:43 2023 From: Marc Howard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 22:18:07 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <38cc7cd9-167c-fc3a-4bda-cedefb1f381d@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0734050463394579465==" --===============0734050463394579465== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone know if that light bulb is still available? I’m not sure what the response of that photo sensor is and that might rule out using a led replacement. The fact that the bulb is almost certainty driven below the rated voltage also complicates matters. Marc On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 5:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/17/23 13:58, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > No, 844 drives use linear voice coils (linear motors), which seems to > have become the norm in the early 1970s. RK05 is another example. The > term "voice coil" is used because they look like oversized versions of the > coil that drives the speaker cone in loudspeakers. These all are some sort > of servo device; in many of them the servo signal is on the media, but not > always. For example, the RK05 uses a pattern of lines on a glass substrate > attached to the actuator; the "fault" light on the drive indicates a > failure of the light bulb that illuminates the servo pattern. > > > > A common feature of linear motor actuators is an emergency retract > circuit, powered by rather large capacitors, to pull the heads off the disk > if there is a power failure. > > > And, IIRC, a bit red warning sticker on the actuator. > > --Chuck > --===============0734050463394579465==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Jan 18 03:19:40 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 03:19:12 +0000 Message-ID: <1387101655.2405311.1674011952882@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580C03333EFD219DFC87263EDC69=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4065354202592869451==" --===============4065354202592869451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seeing the way we often behave, I'll speak for myself, making dumb mistakes = again and again, on some level we aren't much more then organic computers. Pe= ople overwhelmingly respond to the way they were programmed. On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 10:10:43 PM EST, Bill Gunshannon via cctal= k wrote: =20 =20 On 1/17/23 12:10, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 > It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up.=20 Which is all Watson could do when it "beat" humans at Jeopardy. >=C2=A0 I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason t= o whatever degree.=20 Science still has no real idea how we think.=C2=A0 Or how we learn.=C2=A0 Or = much else about the actual functioning of the brain.=C2=A0 Until they do how can anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock and only reflects the abilities of the programmer, how to think. bill =20 --===============4065354202592869451==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Jan 18 03:35:28 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 03:34:53 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8753539525316316842==" --===============8753539525316316842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another forum said a museum in Pa won it. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 17, 2023, at 17:55, Tony Jones via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 5:52 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> That bwas a good price I think. >>=20 >=20 > Yes, just imagine all the cool things you could do with it :-) --===============8753539525316316842==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jan 18 03:41:06 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 22:40:27 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21810E2AF7B7740404236767E4C79=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9182182922926942653==" --===============9182182922926942653== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So it must have gone to the LSSM. It did not go to kennett classic. Maybe the "computer church" in Parkesburg bought it. BIll On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:35 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Another forum said a museum > in Pa won it. > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 17, 2023, at 17:55, Tony Jones via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 5:52 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> That bwas a good price I think. > >> > > > > Yes, just imagine all the cool things you could do with it :-) > --===============9182182922926942653==-- From jay-cctalk0092@toaster.com Wed Jan 18 04:32:17 2023 From: jay-cctalk0092@toaster.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 20:26:37 -0800 Message-ID: <52d812df-8102-bd9c-e503-ef6c952a49ed@toaster.com> In-Reply-To: <311130759.1918879.1673921127796@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5351416733279153753==" --===============5351416733279153753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know about guessing per se, but ChatGPT can deadpan bullshit=20 with the best of them... Prompt: /Describe the purpose of the DC LO signal in the DIGITAL PDP-11=20 Unibus/ Response: /The DC LO signal, also known as the "Data Bus Low" signal, is a signal=20 that is used on the Unibus of the Digital PDP-11 computer. The Unibus is=20 a bus architecture that was used in the PDP-11 computer to connect=20 various peripheral devices, such as memory, disk drives, and other I/O=20 devices, to the central processing unit (CPU)./ /The purpose of the DC LO signal is to provide the lower 8 bits of data=20 that are transferred between the peripheral devices and the CPU over the=20 Unibus. It is used in conjunction with the DC HI signal, which provides=20 the upper 8 bits of data, to form a 16-bit wide data bus. Together, the=20 DC LO and DC HI signals provide the mechanism for data transfer between=20 the peripheral devices and the CPU on the PDP-11./ /The DC LO signal is used to transfer data in parallel between the=20 peripheral devices and the CPU. The signal is active for the duration of=20 the data transfer, and it is timed with the other signals on the Unibus=20 to ensure that data is transferred correctly./ /It's worth noting that the PDP-11 was a 36-bit word machine and the DC=20 LO and DC HI signals were used to transfer 18-bits of data at a time. It=20 has also a feature of memory mapping, where it can access memory through=20 a virtual address space, allowing more than one peripheral device to be=20 connected to the same address on the Unibus./ --Jay On 1/16/2023 6:05 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The ques= tion in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they any good= at it. > > Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to suit = a particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication whereby t= hey can analyze code and rewrite sections? > --===============5351416733279153753==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Wed Jan 18 04:35:40 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 15:35:05 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8F283FE7-94E1-44B0-BB2A-B0177FE0F0AA@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1987600544970297526==" --===============1987600544970297526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One might ask what is really worth preserving for millenia? None of my "treasures" qualify I think. Tom On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, 9:05 am Paul Koning via cctalk, wrote: > > > > On Jan 17, 2023, at 3:34 PM, P Gebhardt via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 15:54:54 MEZ hat Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Folgendes geschrieben: > > > > ... > >> I have an RM03 pack somewhere. There probably are a few places left > that could read it. If it were an RA60 pack it would be a whole lot more > problematic, I suspect. Without an >old drive, how would you recover the > data? Spin table? Perhaps, if you can find, or reverse engineer, the > format. > > > > Do you assume the problem with RA60 disk packs to be more problematic > because of a smaller availability of systems with RA60 drives to read the > packs compared to CDC 9762 /RM03 drives? > > Yes, and the higher density, and the fact that the on-disk format is more > complex and unlikely to be documented in any open documentation. > > paul > > > --===============1987600544970297526==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jan 18 05:16:06 2023 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 00:15:32 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5716708726291672714==" --===============5716708726291672714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, it went to the System Source museum in Huntsville, MD. On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > So it must have gone to the LSSM. It did not go to kennett classic. Maybe > the "computer church" in Parkesburg bought it. > BIll > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:35 PM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: > >> Another forum said a museum >> in Pa won it. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 17, 2023, at 17:55, Tony Jones via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 5:52 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> That bwas a good price I think. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, just imagine all the cool things you could do with it :-) >> > Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============5716708726291672714==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jan 18 05:17:12 2023 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 00:16:39 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2587038781119709762==" --===============2587038781119709762== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Correction: Hunt Valley, MD. On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > No, it went to the System Source museum in Huntsville, MD. > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > >> So it must have gone to the LSSM. It did not go to kennett classic. >> Maybe >> the "computer church" in Parkesburg bought it. >> BIll >> >> On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:35 PM Wayne S via cctalk >> >> wrote: >> >>> Another forum said a museum >>> in Pa won it. >>>=20 >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jan 17, 2023, at 17:55, Tony Jones via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 5:52 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < >>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That bwas a good price I think. >>>>>=20 >>>> >>>> Yes, just imagine all the cool things you could do with it :-) >>>=20 >>=20 > > Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============2587038781119709762==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jan 18 05:48:12 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 21:47:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3414258.2408886.1674011667911@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6111318119204386672==" --===============6111318119204386672== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/17/23 19:14, Chris via cctalk wrote: > My worst nightmare is some fiendish AI turning me into a really beautiful w= oman. Maybe with no arms. The Terminator future doesn't seem so bad by compar= ison. > My worst nightmare, which is sure to become reality is for it to become a weapon, like most technology eventually does. --Chuck --===============6111318119204386672==-- From sieler@allegrosupport.com Wed Jan 18 05:55:16 2023 From: Stan Sieler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Quoting/replying etiquette. (was: Re: I need to make some space.) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:07:01 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167397840709.1602.5618242470503821187@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3979492602987714090==" --===============3979492602987714090== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, PLEASE TRIM THE DARN POST BEFORE REPLYING! For example, Bill's interesting post about needing space was 75 lines long (#1)... The first reply included the ENTIRE MESSAGE. The second, from another very long time participant, was TWO !@#$%^& LINES OF NEW CONTENT, with *TWO COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL POST* (about 145 lines). I don't want to single out just that post ... I haven't counted, but I'd bet that the vast majority of posts include the entire OP, and replies! Some other post had three copies in today's digest. The basic guideline is to quote *just enough* for the reader to understand what you're referring to. (Whether you quote below or above is another subject entirely :) Please have consideration for *EVERY* reader of this list, our disk space, and our network bandwidth! thanks, Stan ---- 1. BTW, Bill, that line count includes the totally unnecessary (and never believable) text: "This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com" --===============3979492602987714090==-- From jay-tuhs9915@toaster.com Wed Jan 18 05:55:34 2023 From: Jay Logue To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:46:33 -0800 Message-ID: <159f3b51-caed-4c61-8676-51610ad8e5ac@toaster.com> In-Reply-To: <311130759.1918879.1673921127796@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7296311598102015178==" --===============7296311598102015178== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know about guessing, but ChatGPT can deadpan bullshit with the=20 best of them... Prompt: /Describe the purpose of the DC LO signal in the DIGITAL PDP-11=20 Unibus/ Response: /The DC LO signal, also known as the "Data Bus Low" signal, is a signal=20 that is used on the Unibus of the Digital PDP-11 computer. The Unibus is=20 a bus architecture that was used in the PDP-11 computer to connect=20 various peripheral devices, such as memory, disk drives, and other I/O=20 devices, to the central processing unit (CPU)./ /The purpose of the DC LO signal is to provide the lower 8 bits of data=20 that are transferred between the peripheral devices and the CPU over the=20 Unibus. It is used in conjunction with the DC HI signal, which provides=20 the upper 8 bits of data, to form a 16-bit wide data bus. Together, the=20 DC LO and DC HI signals provide the mechanism for data transfer between=20 the peripheral devices and the CPU on the PDP-11./ /The DC LO signal is used to transfer data in parallel between the=20 peripheral devices and the CPU. The signal is active for the duration of=20 the data transfer, and it is timed with the other signals on the Unibus=20 to ensure that data is transferred correctly./ /It's worth noting that the PDP-11 was a 36-bit word machine and the DC=20 LO and DC HI signals were used to transfer 18-bits of data at a time. It=20 has also a feature of memory mapping, where it can access memory through=20 a virtual address space, allowing more than one peripheral device to be=20 connected to the same address on the Unibus./ --Jay // //On 1/16/2023 6:05 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The ques= tion in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they any good= at it. > > Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to suit = a particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication whereby t= hey can analyze code and rewrite sections? > --===============7296311598102015178==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Wed Jan 18 05:55:53 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 21:03:58 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3990288713187210449==" --===============3990288713187210449== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does it have a floating point unit? You could mine bitcoins.... C On 1/17/2023 8:55 PM, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 5:52 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> That bwas a good price I think. >> > > Yes, just imagine all the cool things you could do with it :-) --===============3990288713187210449==-- From ama@ugr.es Wed Jan 18 07:26:02 2023 From: Angel M Alganza To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Quoting/replying etiquette. Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 08:19:49 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8142474267629833874==" --===============8142474267629833874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, On 2023-01-17 20:07, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > PLEASE TRIM THE DARN POST BEFORE REPLYING! Yes, please, please, please! > The basic guideline is to quote *just enough* for the reader to > understand > what you're referring to. (Whether you quote below or above is another > subject entirely :) Or neither. :-) > Please have consideration for *EVERY* reader of this list, our disk > space, > and our network bandwidth! And the most important thing, our freaking time. It might take a couple of minutes to edit the quoted text of an email for the sender, whereas it takes much more accumulated time for all readers to check the contents of such enormous mails to understand what the message is all about and to often find out they bring very little (when anything) to the conversation. > thanks, No, thank you for reminding about this! Cheers, Ángel --===============8142474267629833874==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Wed Jan 18 09:43:02 2023 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] ebay: GE reel tape drives from the 60s Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 09:42:31 +0000 Message-ID: <438969322.4704164.1674034951104@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <438969322.4704164.1674034951104.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8216534271584411423==" --===============8216534271584411423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi list , came across this listing:=20 https://www.ebay.com/itm/354525985222 I just love the engineering quality of these early electro-mechanical systems= ! Reminds me of the CDC 60x series reel tape drives.=20 BTW, not affiliated with the seller. In my point of view, 5000 bucks is a lot of money for these, though... Greetings,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============8216534271584411423==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jan 18 12:19:01 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:18:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4450732337326618949==" --===============4450732337326618949== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Didnt they already have a LINC? B On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 12:15 AM Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > No, it went to the System Source museum in Huntsville, MD. > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > So it must have gone to the LSSM. It did not go to kennett classic. > Maybe > > the "computer church" in Parkesburg bought it. > > BIll > > > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:35 PM Wayne S via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> Another forum said a museum > >> in Pa won it. > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On Jan 17, 2023, at 17:55, Tony Jones via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 5:52 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>> That bwas a good price I think. > >>>> > >>> > >>> Yes, just imagine all the cool things you could do with it :-) > >> > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============4450732337326618949==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jan 18 12:39:28 2023 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:38:49 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6216265363689151051==" --===============6216265363689151051== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A smaller one. On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, Bill Degnan wrote: > Didnt they already have a LINC? > B > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 12:15 AM Mike Loewen via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> No, it went to the System Source museum in Huntsville, MD. >> >> On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >>> So it must have gone to the LSSM. It did not go to kennett classic. >> Maybe >>> the "computer church" in Parkesburg bought it. >>> BIll >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:35 PM Wayne S via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Another forum said a museum >>>> in Pa won it. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Jan 17, 2023, at 17:55, Tony Jones via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 5:52 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < >>>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That bwas a good price I think. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, just imagine all the cool things you could do with it :-) >>>> >>> >> >> Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us >> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============6216265363689151051==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 18 12:51:56 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 12:16:26 +0000 Message-ID: <01SMUOO4FMKO8X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5425038583971557898==" --===============5425038583971557898== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/23 19:14, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> My worst nightmare is some fiendish AI turning me into a really beautiful >> woman. Maybe with no arms. The Terminator future doesn't seem so bad by >> comparison. >> > My worst nightmare, which is sure to become reality is for it to become > a weapon, like most technology eventually does. > If these AI weapons are implemented with current computing technology, it's hard to imagine them managing to take over the world before they crash/panic/BSOD/bomb etc depending on their specific flavour and/or get bricked by malware and/or fail due to leaking/dried up electrolytic capacitors and/or batteries. It's hard enough to keep systems going without interruption when this is what people are actively trying to do. In any case, how are they going to prevent the humans from cutting off their power? Why is it that the terminator never gets a warning light on and needs to call maintenance? Technology doesn't get simpler and more foolproof, it gets more complex and therefore more likely to foul up in some unexpected way eventuall= y. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > --Chuck > --===============5425038583971557898==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 18 12:52:21 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 12:44:19 +0000 Message-ID: <01SMUOWKMK388X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <159f3b51-caed-4c61-8676-51610ad8e5ac@toaster.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1913221965924052105==" --===============1913221965924052105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I telephoned the customer service department at a railway company. I think the person I spoke to knew less about trains than this thing knows about a PDP-11. Maybe they are using AI to do telephone answering now? Regards, Peter Coghlan. Jay Logue via cctalk wrote: > > I don't know about guessing, but ChatGPT can deadpan bullshit with the > best of them... > > Prompt: /Describe the purpose of the DC LO signal in the DIGITAL PDP-11 > Unibus/ > > Response: > > /The DC LO signal, also known as the "Data Bus Low" signal, is a signal > that is used on the Unibus of the Digital PDP-11 computer. The Unibus is > a bus architecture that was used in the PDP-11 computer to connect > various peripheral devices, such as memory, disk drives, and other I/O > devices, to the central processing unit (CPU)./ > > /The purpose of the DC LO signal is to provide the lower 8 bits of data > that are transferred between the peripheral devices and the CPU over the > Unibus. It is used in conjunction with the DC HI signal, which provides > the upper 8 bits of data, to form a 16-bit wide data bus. Together, the > DC LO and DC HI signals provide the mechanism for data transfer between > the peripheral devices and the CPU on the PDP-11./ > [snip] > > --Jay > // --===============1913221965924052105==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jan 18 15:59:22 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ebay: GE reel tape drives from the 60s Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:58:44 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <438969322.4704164.1674034951104@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0200607729541530750==" --===============0200607729541530750== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 1:42 AM P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Hi list , > > came across this listing: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/354525985222 > > I just love the engineering quality of these early electro-mechanical > systems! Reminds me of the CDC 60x series reel tape drives. > BTW, not affiliated with the seller. > In my point of view, 5000 bucks is a lot of money for these, though... > Didn't you read the listing? The tape on the door panel reads, "prototype". That automatically adds two zeroes to the arbitrary value already assigned by the seller. I agree these are beautiful machines. Sellam > --===============0200607729541530750==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jan 18 17:45:22 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 09:44:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SMUOO4FMKO8X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5450171067360257944==" --===============5450171067360257944== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/18/23 04:16, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > If these AI weapons are implemented with current computing > technology, it's hard to imagine them managing to take over the world > before they crash/panic/BSOD/bomb etc depending on their specific > flavour and/or get bricked by malware and/or fail due to > leaking/dried up electrolytic capacitors and/or batteries. It's hard > enough to keep systems going without interruption when this is what > people are actively trying to do. > > In any case, how are they going to prevent the humans from cutting > off their power? > Just imagine, instead of a soldier or airman sitting at a display picking out targets for a airborne drone, doing away with the psychological stress and uncertainty and letting an AI select and attack targets.   As far as I can tell, this doesn't violate any conventions.  How about artillery using the same system?   The AI will be distant from the actual weapon, so no concerns about cutting off power. Of course, I'm stating the obvious--I would be very surprised if various governments weren't already developing platforms based on AI. --Chuck --===============5450171067360257944==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jan 18 17:48:29 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ebay: GE reel tape drives from the 60s Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 09:47:58 -0800 Message-ID: <76952864-6abc-ef65-650c-fafa3d3a2905@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <438969322.4704164.1674034951104@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2305180475242951892==" --===============2305180475242951892== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/18/23 01:42, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Hi list , >=20 > came across this listing:=20 >=20 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/354525985222 >=20 > I just love the engineering quality of these early electro-mechanical syste= ms! Reminds me of the CDC 60x series reel tape drives.=20 > BTW, not affiliated with the seller. > In my point of view, 5000 bucks is a lot of money for these, though... Certainly interesting, but a quick inspection also shows a few bits missing. In any case, are there any GE 600-series mainframes left around that can actually interface to these in the remote possibility that these can be made operational? Museum exhibits or movie props. --Chuck --===============2305180475242951892==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jan 18 18:01:25 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 10:00:52 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5611298675175282895==" --===============5611298675175282895== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/18/23 09:44, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/18/23 04:16, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >>> If these AI weapons are implemented with current computing > > technology, it's hard to imagine them managing to take over the world > > before they crash/panic/BSOD/bomb etc depending on their specific > > flavour and/or get bricked by malware and/or fail due to > leaking/dried > up electrolytic capacitors and/or batteries. It's hard > enough to keep > systems going without interruption when this is what > people are > actively trying to do. > > In any case, how are they going to prevent > the humans from cutting > off their power? > Just imagine, instead of a > soldier or airman sitting at a display picking out targets for a > airborne drone, doing away with the psychological stress and uncertainty My apologies, this is the kind of crap that gets sent when I try to trim a post. I've set my email client now to disable HTML rendering, so maybe the following will come through okay: Just imagine, instead of a soldier or airman sitting at a display picking out targets for a airborne drone, doing away with the psychological stress and uncertainty and letting an AI select and attack targets. As far as I can tell, this doesn't violate any conventions. How about artillery using the same system? The AI will be distant from the actual weapon, so no concerns about cutting off power. Of course, I'm stating the obvious--I would be very surprised if various governments weren't already developing platforms based on AI. --Chuck --===============5611298675175282895==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jan 18 18:34:41 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 12:34:15 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <159f3b51-caed-4c61-8676-51610ad8e5ac@toaster.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5989297223599818503==" --===============5989297223599818503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/17/23 13:46, Jay Logue via cctalk wrote: > I don't know about guessing, but ChatGPT can deadpan > bullshit with the best of them... Wow, it picked a bunch of text that must have been DEC specific, but that was as specific as it got. Whew, this could destroy all recorded knowledge if it goes on contaminating information repositories like this. Jon --===============5989297223599818503==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jan 18 18:42:50 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 12:42:26 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5996615015739432892==" --===============5996615015739432892== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/17/23 21:18, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know if that light bulb is still available? I’m not sure what > the response of that photo sensor is and that might rule out using a led > replacement. The fact that the bulb is almost certainty driven below the > rated voltage also complicates matters. If you need JUST ONE badly enough, you can probably keep it going.  Likely an LED could be used as a substitute.  But, a roughly equivalent bulb with the wrong base could likely be found and hacked. Jon --===============5996615015739432892==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jan 18 18:44:08 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 12:43:41 -0600 Message-ID: <9b799e53-b77b-2687-6a16-ca14c4cc0007@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB21810E2AF7B7740404236767E4C79=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8363718716497081148==" --===============8363718716497081148== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/17/23 21:34, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Another forum said a museum > in Pa won it. LSSM  (Large Scale Systems Museum)?  I just donated some stuff to them. Jon --===============8363718716497081148==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jan 18 18:47:51 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:47:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9b799e53-b77b-2687-6a16-ca14c4cc0007@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6662987240676512125==" --===============6662987240676512125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am told System Source north of Baltimore, MD On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 1:43 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/23 21:34, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > Another forum said a museum > > in Pa won it. > > LSSM (Large Scale Systems Museum)? I just donated some > stuff to them. > > Jon > > --===============6662987240676512125==-- From hush@dec.dog Wed Jan 18 18:55:35 2023 From: hush@dec.dog To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:55:07 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9b799e53-b77b-2687-6a16-ca14c4cc0007@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5422242386938576039==" --===============5422242386938576039== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable it was not LSSM, i asked one of their docents last night. =E2=80=94 .hush Got interesting stuff to sell? Let me know! Looking for DEC, IBM, CDC, SGI, Data General, and more! > On Wednesday, Jan 18, 2023 at 1:43 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/23 21:34, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > Another forum said a museum > > in Pa won it. > > LSSM (Large Scale Systems Museum)? I just donated some > stuff to them. > > Jon > --===============5422242386938576039==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Jan 18 20:19:32 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 12:19:05 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SMUOO4FMKO8X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3601310444185952730==" --===============3601310444185952730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> My worst nightmare, which is sure to become reality is for it to become >> a weapon, like most technology eventually does. On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > In any case, how are they going to prevent the humans from cutting off their > power? "The Adolescence Of P1" [by Thomas J. Ryan, 1977], ends with the AI (which started on a 360 at Waterloo) having become covert, letting humanity think that it has been destroyed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3601310444185952730==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Wed Jan 18 22:16:17 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 14:15:45 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8056802479935457390==" --===============8056802479935457390== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > "The Adolescence Of P1" [by Thomas J. Ryan, 1977], ends with the AI (which > started on a 360 at Waterloo) having become covert, letting humanity think > that it has been destroyed. > That is an absolutely wonderful book. Another good read is When HARLIE Was One. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============8056802479935457390==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Jan 18 22:17:28 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 22:16:58 +0000 Message-ID: <697483717.2781175.1674080218250@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5382298015084630699==" --===============5382298015084630699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 On Wednesday, January 18, 2023, 03:19:15 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> My worst nightmare, which is sure to become reality is for it to become >> a weapon, like most technology eventually does. On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > In any case, how are they going to prevent the humans from cutting off their > power? "The Adolescence Of P1" [by Thomas J. Ryan, 1977], ends with the AI (which started on a 360 at Waterloo) having become covert, letting humanity think that it has been destroyed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com =20 --===============5382298015084630699==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Jan 18 22:20:10 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 22:19:41 +0000 Message-ID: <1434503635.2774731.1674080381344@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <697483717.2781175.1674080218250@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1812888846444402376==" --===============1812888846444402376== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The previous was sent accidentally. Not even sure how it got sent - AHA THE = AI AT WORK!!=20 Regardless attempting to trim post on a phone is pure agony. Maybe I'll just = go back to replying without any previous posts. Howzat sound? =20 --===============1812888846444402376==-- From cc@alderson.users.panix.com Thu Jan 19 02:32:31 2023 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 21:12:59 -0500 Message-ID: <4Ny5kg0MYFzfYm@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <159f3b51-caed-4c61-8676-51610ad8e5ac@toaster.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2149541044733168749==" --===============2149541044733168749== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:46:33 -0800 > From: Jay Logue via cctalk > //On 1/16/2023 6:05 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The >> question in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they a= ny >> good at it. >> Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to suit= a >> particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication whereby >> they can analyze code and rewrite sections? > I don't know about guessing, but ChatGPT can deadpan bullshit with the=20 > best of them... > Prompt: /Describe the purpose of the DC LO signal in the DIGITAL PDP-11=20 > Unibus/ [ snip ] > /It's worth noting that the PDP-11 was a 36-bit word machine and the DC=20 > LO and DC HI signals were used to transfer 18-bits of data at a time. It=20 > has also a feature of memory mapping, where it can access memory through=20 > a virtual address space, allowing more than one peripheral device to be=20 > connected to the same address on the Unibus./ I'm assuming that the leading slashes are a QUOTE indicator. If ChatGPT has concluded that the PDP-11 was a 36 bit system, then it's even stupider than the mainstream press has made it sound. Rich --===============2149541044733168749==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jan 19 03:05:40 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 19:05:01 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4Ny5kg0MYFzfYm@panix5.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2653548439555616856==" --===============2653548439555616856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 6:32 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > /It's worth noting that the PDP-11 was a 36-bit word machine and the DC > > LO and DC HI signals were used to transfer 18-bits of data at a time. It > > has also a feature of memory mapping, where it can access memory through > > a virtual address space, allowing more than one peripheral device to be > > connected to the same address on the Unibus./ > > I'm assuming that the leading slashes are a QUOTE indicator. > > If ChatGPT has concluded that the PDP-11 was a 36 bit system, then it's > even > stupider than the mainstream press has made it sound. Yes and no. ChatGPT 3 responds more accurately the more succinct your prompt is, or in subsequent prompts explaining to it where it's wrong, and then it will usually come back with a much better answer. Don't argue politics with it though. On that topic it's always absolutely right about everything and will obnoxiously go out of its way to tell you so. Sellam --===============2653548439555616856==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Thu Jan 19 10:42:26 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:18:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8609453378226289124==" --===============8609453378226289124== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Whew, this could destroy all recorded knowledge if it goes on > contaminating information repositories like this. That's a good point: There are already a number of crap web sites that purport to have information, only it's been scraped from other sites and re-branded as a mish-mosh for search engines. Since Google and such are promoting these sites in their engines, they are probably gamed to seem as "authoritative" Take that, add chatgpt sites starting to cite each other and that's pretty much the end of information. We'll have to go back to mailing lists and such to find where the real sources are. CZ > > Jon > --===============8609453378226289124==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 19 12:05:57 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:05:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1027958508.2942893.1674129926551@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2619487297945756190==" --===============2619487297945756190== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But "we" or "they" have been calling the IBM PC a 16 bit computer for ages. = The question is what type of information has the ai been programmed to delive= r. Higjly accurate technical info? Or info that is suitable for the umwashed = masses? Could the ai be called upon to assist a surgeon doing a type of opera= tion for the first time? Help someone remove a transmission? To what degree d= oes it simply rely on sites and chat. Does it consult pdfs of books? It might= ne asking too much at this stage. But there was the 1 engineer who claimed t= he thing was alive. You'd get the impression this whole endeavor is more about marketing and Goog= le's image then anything else. =20 --===============2619487297945756190==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 13:35:54 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 08:35:14 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1027958508.2942893.1674129926551@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2631128271117814361==" --===============2631128271117814361== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/19/23 07:05, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 > The question is what type of information has the ai been programmed to deli= ver. Higjly accurate technical info? Or info that is suitable for the umwashe= d masses? Could the ai be called upon to assist a surgeon doing a type of ope= ration for the first time? Help someone remove a transmission?=20 40 years ago "AI" and Prolog were going to do all of this using something called "smart systems". How did that work out? And, yes, I still have my copy of Turbo Prolog. :-) bill --===============2631128271117814361==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Thu Jan 19 13:42:41 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 08:19:56 -0500 Message-ID: <1703210e-cbf5-051a-1b30-093d663a1246@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: <1027958508.2942893.1674129926551@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3476699984835620359==" --===============3476699984835620359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-19 07:05, Chris via cctalk wrote: > The question is what type of information has the ai been programmed to deli= ver. Higjly accurate technical info? Or info that is suitable for the umwashe= d masses?=20 Old rule for all data collections: SH*T in, SH*T out --===============3476699984835620359==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 19 15:26:11 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:25:41 +0000 Message-ID: <1062304470.3030269.1674141941470@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580855DC3C1554E9BBFC752EDC49=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5469063020128109422==" --===============5469063020128109422== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable @ Bill Gunshannon Long live PROLOG dude! Something I've never delved into but am fascinated by. Expert systems are just tricked out database systems. I have to imagine they = are used. They just never lived up to the hype. AI in any form, I suppose, wi= ll make real what many had as a vision for computers in the 80s. To amplify o= r enhance human ability to accomplish a task. But humans are lazy and will ev= entually turn too much of their own autonomy over to computers. I for one am = a very responsible driver. The only thing I've ever collided with was a guard= rail when I was 19. And it was raining. Dented my fender some. But continued= on. Never been in an accident that wasn't TOTALLY AND ENTIRELY the fault of = the other driver. And in both instances they hit me. So after 38 years of dri= ving, I need a computer to do it for me. Sorry I'll pass. =20 --===============5469063020128109422==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Thu Jan 19 16:56:12 2023 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 16:25:11 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1062304470.3030269.1674141941470@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6367126826620433248==" --===============6367126826620433248== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 19/01/2023 15:25, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Never been in an accident that wasn't TOTALLY AND ENTIRELY the fault of the= other driver. And in both instances they hit me. So after 38 years of drivin= g, I need a computer to do it for me. Sorry I'll pass. Maybe 10(+?) years from now, assuming L5 driving is a thing (rather than=20 marketing hype), the other drivers will stop hitting you. Always=20 assuming they don't pass too :-) If ChatGPT gets good enough to help me diagnose my non-functioning L400X=20 motherboards, then I'll be happy. Until then, I'm not too interested. Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============6367126826620433248==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 19 17:26:55 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fw: Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 17:26:14 +0000 Message-ID: <1825691446.3082804.1674149174476@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2458329.3070618.1674148838346@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3723846499906264669==" --===============3723846499906264669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure if my reply made it to the list. Yahoo seems to indicate it didn't - When they prove idiots will be far less prone to hit me, I'll be for that. I'= ll still choose to drive myself though. If you give someone else the keys, you may wind up going somewhere you don't = want to. That'a what happens when you trade your autonomy for alleged securit= y. The ****heads can do what they want. That's _their_ choice. =20 --===============3723846499906264669==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 19 19:14:09 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:13:42 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1062304470.3030269.1674141941470@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6344765399908104462==" --===============6344765399908104462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Long live PROLOG dude! Something I've never delved into but am > fascinated by. > > Expert systems are just tricked out database systems. I have to imagine > they are used. They just never lived up to the hype. AI in any form, I > suppose, will make real what many had as a vision for computers in the > 80s. To amplify or enhance human ability to accomplish a task. But > humans are lazy and will eventually turn too much of their own autonomy > over to computers. When I went back to graduate school for my degrees in Information Studies, I took a course in "Expert Systems". Totally underwhelmed by it. The majority of the examples in the textbook were just simple decision trees! Trivial to flowchart. And if you can follow a troubleshooting flowchart, you are already doing what the "expert system" does. One example was troubleshooting a motorcycle that would not start. OK. I've been there. The example went through reasonable tests (although not necessarily the sequence that I would use), Then at the end, when none of the tests produced an answer, it DECLARED that the problem was clogged vent of fuel tank! A reasonable item to test; but they didn't! The example concluded it based solely on not having found the problem on the tests that they did! A troubleshooting flowchart that "falls through" to a conclusion is wrong. "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. ~ Arthur Conan Doyle, The Case-Book of Sherlock Holmes. is a FLAWED way to troubleshoot. Incompetent people often cite that when they don't know what they are doing. People who troubleshoot by "process of elimination", will 1) always fail to come up with ALL possibilities to test; 2) in testing possibilities will fail to ACTUALLY eliminate them, and often merely determine that they are improbable, mistaking that for impossible. "Expert systems" are an attempted implementation of what the programmer gleaned from interviewing the human "expert". ChatGPT at least expands the original sources of information a bit. If somebody is incapable of following a troubleshooting flowchart, then an "expert system" can talk them through that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6344765399908104462==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Jan 19 19:39:29 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:39:06 -0600 Message-ID: <839764666.476101.1674157146285@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2401758087365014553==" --===============2401758087365014553== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Coincidentally, I just saw this article on CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/19/tech/chatgpt-future-davos/index.html I think it says more about the state of education, even among the "elite," th= an it does about the state of "AI." But that's just me. Will --===============2401758087365014553==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jan 19 19:54:21 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 14:53:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <839764666.476101.1674157146285@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6447162905739287531==" --===============6447162905739287531== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has Chatgtp absorbed the CCTALK/TECH lists? Someone should do a test. It would be easy if you pick an esoteric question that was probably only asked/answered on this list. I kinda have been avoiding setting up an account with CHATGPT because I feel like it would be too intrusive into my life, social media and google are bad enough. Would AI start selling my questions and answers? I am waiting for that ad to come across my screen that is *too* personalized. Imagine the ad is a picture of me working at my workbench in the basement. The caption, "Don't be like this guy spending hours learning how to fix his Intertec Superbrain motherboard. It's so much easier and cheaper to buy a working Intertec Superbrain motherboard on Ebay, use this link, and save %10?" paranoid? b --===============6447162905739287531==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 19 20:13:50 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:13:20 +0000 Message-ID: <1188245123.3168716.1674159200388@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2146790890741915492==" --===============2146790890741915492== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OMG! At least I'm not alone in my paranoia about this stuff. All I can say is don't go sending your DNA off to some lab to see who yer gre= at^n grandaddy was. Then there's less chance of the forthcoming Superbrain AI= knowing which switches in which strand of DNA need to flipped to turn you in= to a super hottie (of the opposite sex). Or an armadillo. Or a dung beatle fo= r that matter.=20 On Thursday, January 19, 2023, 02:54:03 PM EST, Bill Degnan via cctalk <= cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: =20 =20 Has Chatgtp absorbed the CCTALK/TECH lists?=C2=A0 Someone should do a test.= =C2=A0 It would be easy if you pick an esoteric question that was probably only asked/answered on this list. I kinda have been avoiding setting up an account with CHATGPT because I feel like it would be too intrusive into my life, social media and google are bad enough.=C2=A0 Would AI start selling my questions and answers? I am waiting for that ad to come across my screen that is *too* personalized.=C2=A0 Imagine the ad is a picture of me working at my workbench= in the basement.=C2=A0 The caption, "Don't be like this guy spending hours learn= ing how to fix his Intertec Superbrain motherboard.=C2=A0 It's so much easier and cheaper to buy a working Intertec Superbrain motherboard on Ebay, use this link, and save %10?" paranoid? b =20 --===============2146790890741915492==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 19 20:24:26 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:23:57 +0000 Message-ID: <491601317.3172961.1674159837141@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8101234863019736489==" --===============8101234863019736489== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable @ Fred C. I don't know. I always thought it was kind of a nice idea. Doctors fer instan= ce are so stupid these days. They need all the help they can get. An expert s= ystem back in the 80s w/o the level of collaboration we have possible today m= ay not have been worth much. But such a system that get's revised constantly,= and would probably need AI for it to be effective. In any event, and I don't ever to this day recall doing a single search for i= t anywhere, there's Knowledge Man on ebay right now. In Bulgaria. With 8" dia= ks!! Only 285$!!! There's the possibility of a vintage item that's cooler the= n a PROLOG compiler, on account of it's obscurity. =20 --===============8101234863019736489==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jan 19 20:25:55 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:25:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2618163943547998806==" --===============2618163943547998806== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me: What can you tell me about the Classic Computers mailing list? ChatGPT: I'm sorry, I am not aware of any specific "Classic Computers mailing list." Could you provide more information or context about the mailing list you are asking about? Me: It was started in 1997 by Bill Whitson and eventually was hosted at the site classiccmp.org. Its topic of discussion is vintage computers. ChatGPT: I apologize for the confusion. The Classic Computers mailing list, also known as "ClassicCmp," is a mailing list and online community dedicated to the discussion and preservation of vintage computers. The list was started in 1997 by Bill Whitson and was originally hosted on the classiccmp.org website. It is an active community of enthusiasts, collectors, and historians who share information and resources related to vintage computer technology. They discuss and share information about computers and computer peripherals from the 1950s through the 1990s. The list serves as a valuable resource for those interested in the history and technology of early computing. [Can't be sure if it didn't just respond from the wording in my prompt at this point.] Me: What else can you tell me about it? ChatGPT: The Classic Computers mailing list is a community of people interested in the history of computing, and specifically the computers and computer technology from the 1950s through the 1990s. The community is made up of a diverse group of people, including enthusiasts, collectors, historians, and people who worked in the computer industry during that time period. The mailing list is a place where people can share information, ask questions, and discuss various topics related to vintage computers. The discussions on the mailing list can cover a wide range of topics, including: - Technical details of specific vintage computers, such as the IBM PC or Apple II - Tips and tricks for repairing and restoring vintage computers - Information about software and operating systems for vintage computers - Discussions of the history and impact of specific vintage computer companies or products - Sharing of documentation, manuals, and other resources related to vintage computers The community also shares information about upcoming events, such as vintage computer shows and swap meets, and also have a section dedicated to the buy, sell and trade of vintage computers and parts. [It seems to be mixing up the list with other websites here.] It's also worth noting that classiccmp.org is not just a mailing list, it's also a website that provides additional resources such as documentation, software, and images, and it also has a section dedicated to the history of computing where you can find a lot of articles and information about the history of computing and its evolution. Me: Who is Bill Degnan? ChatGPT: Bill Degnan is a person who is involved with the Classic Computers mailing list and community. I could not find specific information about the person you are asking, but the ClassicCmp community is a large one and there are many individuals involved in it. It's possible that Bill Degnan is an active member of the community, a moderator of the mailing list, or a contributor to the website. Without more specific information, it's difficult for me to provide more information about him. ... You don't need to necessarily be paranoid about it yet, but now it knows your name :o I was interacting with it yesterday and it knew a bit about me. It even threw me a compliment: "Your contributions to the vintage computing community and your efforts in preserving and showcasing the history of computing are greatly appreciated." At least the machines care ;) Sellam On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 11:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Has Chatgtp absorbed the CCTALK/TECH lists? Someone should do a test. It > would be easy if you pick an esoteric question that was probably only > asked/answered on this list. I kinda have been avoiding setting up an > account with CHATGPT because I feel like it would be too intrusive into my > life, social media and google are bad enough. Would AI start selling my > questions and answers? > > I am waiting for that ad to come across my screen that is *too* > personalized. Imagine the ad is a picture of me working at my workbench in > the basement. The caption, "Don't be like this guy spending hours learning > how to fix his Intertec Superbrain motherboard. It's so much easier and > cheaper to buy a working Intertec Superbrain motherboard on Ebay, use this > link, and save %10?" > > paranoid? > > b > --===============2618163943547998806==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Thu Jan 19 20:39:40 2023 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:39:15 +0000 Message-ID: <4b5feac1-9940-cfce-4659-44bb14d8beb8@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7606413204066414641==" --===============7606413204066414641== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19/01/2023 20:25, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > At least the machines care ;) > > Sellam That's possibly the best epitaph any of us will ever get :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============7606413204066414641==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jan 19 20:40:45 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:40:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0686815026987741344==" --===============0686815026987741344== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 11:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Has Chatgtp absorbed the CCTALK/TECH lists? Someone should do a test. It > would be easy if you pick an esoteric question that was probably only > asked/answered on this list. I kinda have been avoiding setting up an > account with CHATGPT because I feel like it would be too intrusive into my > life, social media and google are bad enough. Would AI start selling my > questions and answers? > > I am waiting for that ad to come across my screen that is *too* > personalized. Imagine the ad is a picture of me working at my workbench in > the basement. The caption, "Don't be like this guy spending hours learning > how to fix his Intertec Superbrain motherboard. It's so much easier and > cheaper to buy a working Intertec Superbrain motherboard on Ebay, use this > link, and save %10?" > > paranoid? > > b > > > > > Me: Who is Bill Degnan? > > ChatGPT: Bill Degnan is a person who is involved with the Classic Computers > mailing list and community. I could not find specific information about the > person you are asking, but the ClassicCmp community is a large one and > there are many individuals involved in it. It's possible that Bill Degnan > is an active member of the community, a moderator of the mailing list, or a > contributor to the website. Without more specific information, it's > difficult for me to provide more information about him. > > ... > > You don't need to necessarily be paranoid about it yet, but now it knows > your name :o > > I was interacting with it yesterday and it knew a bit about me. It even > threw me a compliment: "Your contributions to the vintage computing > community and your efforts in preserving and showcasing the history of > computing are greatly appreciated." > > At least the machines care ;) > > Sellam > > > hilarious! CHAPTgpt is going to be useful, and although it's cutting edge tech, the responses it generates is always going to be full of yesterday's news. Good for freshmen college students. Bill --===============0686815026987741344==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 19 20:43:24 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:42:57 +0000 Message-ID: <281190011.1177628.1674160977395@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5540841903192066742==" --===============5540841903192066742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All I can say is if you haven't watched Terminator: the Sarah Connor Chronic= les ... um why not? I didn't even know it existed prior to 3 years ago. Actua= lly pretty thought provoking at times. Maybe ChatGPT will end up being like J= ohn Henry and save us from the terminators. Quite tje opposite of Colossus: t= he Forbin Project. Pretty freaky scary stuff. =20 --===============5540841903192066742==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Thu Jan 19 20:50:36 2023 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 14:46:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7168581620251160053==" --===============7168581620251160053== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 12:42:26PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: > On 1/17/23 21:18, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know if that light bulb is still available? I=E2=80=99m not = sure what > > the response of that photo sensor is and that might rule out using a led > > replacement. The fact that the bulb is almost certainty driven below the > > rated voltage also complicates matters. >=20 > If you need JUST ONE badly enough, you can probably keep it going.=C2=A0 Li= kely > an LED could be used as a substitute.=C2=A0 But, a roughly equivalent bulb = with > the wrong base could likely be found and hacked. >=20 Originally discussing RK05 head position sensor bulb. I have replaced it. The offical part to replace it isn't available. You can open it up and put in a new bulb. I wasn't able to quickly find what bulb I used a number of years ago but if someone really needs to know I can dig further. One of the=20 small ones with wires. It doesn't use bulb with base. LED didn't work. I=20 think sensor is IR. --===============7168581620251160053==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jan 19 21:02:22 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 16:01:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8266043023705324442==" --===============8266043023705324442== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 19, 2023, at 2:46 PM, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 12:42:26PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 1/17/23 21:18, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: >>> Does anyone know if that light bulb is still available? I=E2=80=99m not = sure what >>> the response of that photo sensor is and that might rule out using a led >>> replacement. The fact that the bulb is almost certainty driven below the >>> rated voltage also complicates matters. >>=20 >> If you need JUST ONE badly enough, you can probably keep it going. Likely >> an LED could be used as a substitute. But, a roughly equivalent bulb with >> the wrong base could likely be found and hacked. >>=20 >=20 > Originally discussing RK05 head position sensor bulb. I have replaced it. T= he > offical part to replace it isn't available. You can open it up and put in > a new bulb. I wasn't able to quickly find what bulb I used a number of > years ago but if someone really needs to know I can dig further. One of the= =20 > small ones with wires. It doesn't use bulb with base. LED didn't work. I=20 > think sensor is IR. Hard to know what the sensor wants given that it isn't described in any DEC d= ocuments I could find. The schematics do mention that the light bulb runs on= +5 volts, which suggests that indeed it might be below its rated voltage. If the sensors want IR you could try an IR LED. Or a white LED on the theory= that it's a broadband light source... paul --===============8266043023705324442==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 19 21:11:18 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:10:52 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1703210e-cbf5-051a-1b30-093d663a1246@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3379204429300967028==" --===============3379204429300967028== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 2023-01-19 07:05, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> The question is what type of information has the ai been programmed to >> deliver. Higjly accurate technical info? Or info that is suitable for the >> umwashed masses? On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Old rule for all data collections: SH*T in, SH*T out Can it recognize its own work when it encounters it on a website? Or will seeing its own work increment the "authoritativeness" of that info, reinforcing it continuing that lineof misinformation? --===============3379204429300967028==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Jan 19 21:18:27 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:12:48 -0800 Message-ID: <01fb01d92c4a$c92cd1a0$5b8674e0$@net> In-Reply-To: <491601317.3172961.1674159837141@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4667426751060664036==" --===============4667426751060664036== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't know. I always thought it was kind of a nice idea. Doctors fer > instance are so stupid these days. They need all the help they can get. In what way are they so stupid? -Ali --===============4667426751060664036==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 19 21:21:15 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fw: Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:20:48 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1825691446.3082804.1674149174476@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0092089231382018670==" --===============0092089231382018670== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > When they prove idiots will be far less prone to hit me, I'll be for > that. I'll still choose to drive myself though. > > If you give someone else the keys, you may wind up going somewhere you > don't want to. That'a what happens when you trade your autonomy for > alleged security. The ****heads can do what they want. That's _their_ > choice. I think that self-driving cars should be required to have a licensed driver with hands on the wheel at 10 and 2, or 9 and 3. Nevertheless, even with how bad FSD can be, it is already better than the median drivers on the road. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0092089231382018670==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jan 19 21:24:43 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:24:12 -0800 Message-ID: <57386fe2-0ba0-6c0b-3c72-cc29d7d9d4f7@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2797563545834808595==" --===============2797563545834808595== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/19/23 12:25, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > At least the machines care ;) > I'm reminded of an episode of "The Outer Limits", where even the prison psychiatrist is an AI. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0667983/ --Chuck --===============2797563545834808595==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jan 19 21:26:27 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:25:51 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <281190011.1177628.1674160977395@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1091139070365974804==" --===============1091139070365974804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 12:43 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > All I can say is if you haven't watched Terminator: the Sarah Connor > Chronicles ... um why not? I didn't even know it existed prior to 3 years > ago. Actually pretty thought provoking at times. Maybe ChatGPT will end up > being like John Henry and save us from the terminators. Quite tje opposite > of Colossus: the Forbin Project. Pretty freaky scary stuff. I finally got around to watching Colossus: The Forbin Project a few months ago. Notwithstanding all the cool old tech and how it was integrated into the story, I found it to be verily unsatisfying, and maybe even a little dumb. Next up for screening: The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes. Sellam --===============1091139070365974804==-- From rar@syssrc.com Thu Jan 19 21:29:33 2023 From: rar@syssrc.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:29:06 +0000 Message-ID: <167416374659.1586.13432934389844331988@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7405965441207227033==" --===============7405965441207227033== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We (Computer Museum @ System Source) picked up this unit today. Here are a few snapshots after we pulled the unit off of the truck. https://photos.app.goo.gl/2GvqTQukSEEnyoQp8 Bob Roswell --===============7405965441207227033==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jan 19 21:29:53 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:29:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01fb01d92c4a$c92cd1a0$5b8674e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6478283798377219002==" --===============6478283798377219002== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 1:17 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > I don't know. I always thought it was kind of a nice idea. Doctors fer > > instance are so stupid these days. They need all the help they can get. > > In what way are they so stupid? > I could answer this pretty much definitively but then it would definitely delve into a political argument, and so it should remain unanswered here. $ Sellam --===============6478283798377219002==-- From rar@syssrc.com Thu Jan 19 21:31:27 2023 From: rar@syssrc.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:31:01 +0000 Message-ID: <167416386113.1586.16812074868607356334@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2093795775923390721==" --===============2093795775923390721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney January 19, 2023, Hunt Valley, MD =E2=80=94 Staff members of the System Sourc= e Computer Museum recently completed a project that helped exonerate David Ve= ney, wrongly convicted of rape in 1997. In 2005, after Mr. Veney sought a new= trial, the state found irregularities in the prosecution, released Mr. Veney= from prison, and declined to re-prosecute.=20 Maryland is one of 35 states that provides compensation for wrongly incarcera= ted people. But quirks in the law kept the law from applying in Mr. Veney=E2= =80=99s case. In 2021, the Maryland law was amended, making Mr. Veney eligib= le for partial compensation for the nearly nine years he spent in prison. Sti= ll, Mr. Veney had not been exonerated.. In June 2022, the Computer Museum at System Source in Hunt Valley, MD, was co= ntacted by Patrick Gilbert, Senior Assistant States Attorney and Chief of the= Prosecution Integrity Unit, who asked =E2=80=9CCan you read data from a 5.2= 5=E2=80=9D Floppy Disk?=E2=80=9D Bob Roswell, curator of the museum, quickly = replied =E2=80=9COf course!=E2=80=9D It wasn=E2=80=99t quite that simple. In theory, the diskette contained the co= urt stenographic records from the 1992 rape trial of Grant Jones. The transc= ript was thought to contain evidence that would exonerate both Mr. Jones and = Mr. Veney, but the printed transcripts from 1992 had been lost. Unfortunately= , the diskette was neither IBM- nor Apple-compatible. It had been written on= a DEC PDP-11 minicomputer using the RSX-11 Operating System. Although the m= useum has a PDP-11 in its collection, it had not yet been restored and could = not be started. Brendan Becker, who runs the BLOOP museum inside the Compute= r Museum, jumped on the problem.=20 Brendan set up a =E2=80=9CGreaseweazle,=E2=80=9D a device that reads the magn= etic flux transitions on the floppy disk without regard to operating systems,= disk formats, or errors. The process returned a file containing long binary = strings of ones and zeros. Brendan was able to decode the file structure and = found that disk (despite some unreadable parts) contained the raw keystrokes = that the court stenographer had recorded in the 1992 rape case using a Stenog= raph machine from the era. An operator of a Stenograph machine uses chords t= o rapidly encode conversation by creating keystrokes to represent words, syll= ables, and phrases. While there is some standardization, each stenographer h= as his/her own =E2=80=9Ctheory,=E2=80=9D which results in individual styles f= or different stenographers. Luckily, Patrick Gilbert was able to obtain the services of the stenographer = from the original trial (now retired). Together, they were able to substanti= ally reconstruct the transcript from the 1992 trial, using the data provided = by Brendan. The recovered transcript showed weird similarities to Mr. Veney= =E2=80=99s case. On March 4, 1992, Alice Arroyo claimed to have been raped while walking home= from volunteering at homeless shelter. In her account, the assailant grabbe= d her shirt, ripped it open, and scratched her chest with his nails in a long= , vertical raking motion. Ms. Arroyo provided police with a detailed descrip= tion of her assailant including the jacket he was wearing. The following day= Grant Jones walked into the Salisbury Police Department (in Wicomico County,= MD) to report that his wallet had gone missing from the homeless shelter. M= r. Jones matched the description of the assailant, was arrested, and was conv= icted of assault with intent to rape. On September 24, 1996, Salisbury Police responded to a complaint at the home = of Alice Arroyo, who stated that she had been raped. Again, she provided a d= etailed description of the assailant and described suffering scratches on her= chest in a long vertical raking motion. On October 3, 1996, David Veney, a = former neighbor, was charged with rape. He was 20 years old at the time. Mr. Veney=E2=80=99s first trial in April 1997 ended in a mistrial. The hung j= ury consisted of four jurors voting to convict and eight declaring him innoce= nt. In September 1997, Mr Veney was retried and found guilty of various charges, = including burglary, assault, battery, and rape. He was sentenced to 25 years= for rape and concurrent sentences for the other offenses. In 2005, Mr. Veney sought a new trial on the basis of ineffective representat= ion. (That lawyer was later disbarred.) When the State reviewed the case, su= bstantial doubts about Mr. Veney=E2=80=99s guilt arose, including the eerie s= imilarity in Ms. Arroyo=E2=80=99s testimony in the two cases. Mr. Veney was = released from prison, and the State declined to re-prosecute. =20 The reconstructed transcript of Mr. Jones=E2=80=99 1992 trial proved vital in= establishing Mr. Veney=E2=80=99s innocence. On January 13, 2023, Judge Teres= a Garland awarded Mr Veney approximately $730,000, along with medical, housi= ng, and educational benefits. The staff of the Computer Museum at System Source is proud to have played a s= mall part in Mr. Veney=E2=80=99s exoneration. Bob Roswell, Curator, later lea= rned that the state had contacted numerous other technology firms, who were u= nable to render assistance, before asking the Museum for assistance. The Amendment to Maryland Law Regarding Compensation for Wrongful Convictions: https://mgaleg.maryland.gov/2021rs/Chapters_noln/CH_76_sb0014t.pdf Greaseweazle: https://decromancer.ca/greaseweazle/ Stenography Theories: https://www.artofchording.com/introduction/theories-and-dictionaries.html The System Source Computer Museum: Bob Roswell https://museum.syssrc.com/ --===============2093795775923390721==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jan 19 21:31:56 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fw: Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:31:18 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3628958663079110789==" --===============3628958663079110789== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 1:20 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I think that self-driving cars should be required to have a licensed > driver with hands on the wheel at 10 and 2, or 9 and 3. > 10 & 2?? What are you, old or something? Modern training specifies 8 & 4 At least that's what I learned at the Skip Barber School of Racing. Sellam --===============3628958663079110789==-- From rar@syssrc.com Thu Jan 19 21:33:23 2023 From: rar To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:17:55 +0000 Message-ID: <0e11acba2dbc4d8bb1a2c75ba192b439@syssrc.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9084794221507783520==" --===============9084794221507783520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney January 19, 2023, Hunt Valley, MD =E2=80=94 Staff members of the System Sourc= e Computer Museum recently completed a project that helped exonerate David Ve= ney, wrongly convicted of rape in 1997. In 2005, after Mr. Veney sought a new= trial, the state found irregularities in the prosecution, released Mr. Veney= from prison, and declined to re-prosecute.=20 Maryland is one of 35 states that provides compensation for wrongly incarcera= ted people. But quirks in the law kept the law from applying in Mr. Veney=E2= =80=99s case. In 2021, the Maryland law was amended, making Mr. Veney eligib= le for partial compensation for the nearly nine years he spent in prison. Sti= ll, Mr. Veney had not been exonerated.. In June 2022, the Computer Museum at System Source in Hunt Valley, MD, was co= ntacted by Patrick Gilbert, Senior Assistant States Attorney and Chief of the= Prosecution Integrity Unit, who asked =E2=80=9CCan you read data from a 5.2= 5=E2=80=9D Floppy Disk?=E2=80=9D Bob Roswell, curator of the museum, quickly = replied =E2=80=9COf course!=E2=80=9D It wasn=E2=80=99t quite that simple. In theory, the diskette contained the co= urt stenographic records from the 1992 rape trial of Grant Jones. The transc= ript was thought to contain evidence that would exonerate both Mr. Jones and = Mr. Veney, but the printed transcripts from 1992 had been lost. Unfortunately= , the diskette was neither IBM- nor Apple-compatible. It had been written on= a DEC PDP-11 minicomputer using the RSX-11 Operating System. Although the m= useum has a PDP-11 in its collection, it had not yet been restored and could = not be started. Brendan Becker, who runs the BLOOP museum inside the Compute= r Museum, jumped on the problem.=20 Brendan set up a =E2=80=9CGreaseweazle,=E2=80=9D a device that reads the magn= etic flux transitions on the floppy disk without regard to operating systems,= disk formats, or errors. The process returned a file containing long binary = strings of ones and zeros. Brendan was able to decode the file structure and = found that disk (despite some unreadable parts) contained the raw keystrokes = that the court stenographer had recorded in the 1992 rape case using a Stenog= raph machine from the era. An operator of a Stenograph machine uses chords t= o rapidly encode conversation by creating keystrokes to represent words, syll= ables, and phrases. While there is some standardization, each stenographer h= as his/her own =E2=80=9Ctheory,=E2=80=9D which results in individual styles f= or different stenographers. Luckily, Patrick Gilbert was able to obtain the services of the stenographer = from the original trial (now retired). Together, they were able to substanti= ally reconstruct the transcript from the 1992 trial, using the data provided = by Brendan. The recovered transcript showed weird similarities to Mr. Veney= =E2=80=99s case. On March 4, 1992, Alice Arroyo claimed to have been raped while walking home= from volunteering at homeless shelter. In her account, the assailant grabbe= d her shirt, ripped it open, and scratched her chest with his nails in a long= , vertical raking motion. Ms. Arroyo provided police with a detailed descrip= tion of her assailant including the jacket he was wearing. The following day= Grant Jones walked into the Salisbury Police Department (in Wicomico County,= MD) to report that his wallet had gone missing from the homeless shelter. M= r. Jones matched the description of the assailant, was arrested, and was conv= icted of assault with intent to rape. On September 24, 1996, Salisbury Police responded to a complaint at the home = of Alice Arroyo, who stated that she had been raped. Again, she provided a d= etailed description of the assailant and described suffering scratches on her= chest in a long vertical raking motion. On October 3, 1996, David Veney, a = former neighbor, was charged with rape. He was 20 years old at the time. Mr. Veney=E2=80=99s first trial in April 1997 ended in a mistrial. The hung j= ury consisted of four jurors voting to convict and eight declaring him innoce= nt. In September 1997, Mr Veney was retried and found guilty of various charges, = including burglary, assault, battery, and rape. He was sentenced to 25 years= for rape and concurrent sentences for the other offenses. In 2005, Mr. Veney sought a new trial on the basis of ineffective representat= ion. (That lawyer was later disbarred.) When the State reviewed the case, su= bstantial doubts about Mr. Veney=E2=80=99s guilt arose, including the eerie s= imilarity in Ms. Arroyo=E2=80=99s testimony in the two cases. Mr. Veney was = released from prison, and the State declined to re-prosecute. =20 The reconstructed transcript of Mr. Jones=E2=80=99 1992 trial proved vital in= establishing Mr. Veney=E2=80=99s innocence. On January 13, 2023, Judge Teres= a Garland awarded Mr Veney approximately $730,000, along with medical, housi= ng, and educational benefits. The staff of the Computer Museum at System Source is proud to have played a s= mall part in Mr. Veney=E2=80=99s exoneration. Bob Roswell, Curator, later lea= rned that the state had contacted numerous other technology firms, who were u= nable to render assistance, before asking the Museum for assistance. The Amendment to Maryland Law Regarding Compensation for Wrongful Convictions: https://mgaleg.maryland.gov/2021rs/Chapters_noln/CH_76_sb0014t.pdf Greaseweazle: https://decromancer.ca/greaseweazle/ Stenography Theories: https://www.artofchording.com/introduction/theories-and-dictionaries.html The System Source Computer Museum: Bob Roswell https://museum.syssrc.com/ --===============9084794221507783520==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jan 19 21:38:50 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 16:38:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167416386113.1586.16812074868607356334@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4861250935391912076==" --===============4861250935391912076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 19, 2023, at 4:31 PM, rar--- via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney >=20 > January 19, 2023, Hunt Valley, MD =E2=80=94 Staff members of the System Sou= rce Computer Museum recently completed a project that helped exonerate David = Veney, wrongly convicted of rape in 1997. In 2005, after Mr. Veney sought a n= ew trial, the state found irregularities in the prosecution, released Mr. Ven= ey from prison, and declined to re-prosecute. ... Wow. That is a marvelous story. Just one comment: using the GreaseWeazle makes sense here, but other options = would include seeking out the help of the community. For example, 5.25 inch = floppy drives are widely available, and reading RX50 format on an ordinary dr= ive in Linux is a trivial exercise. Similarly, feeding the recovered device = image to a SIMH instance would be easy enough. The tricky task of translatin= g the application data to readable text still remains in any of those approac= hes, of course. paul --===============4861250935391912076==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Jan 19 21:47:46 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:47:09 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167416386113.1586.16812074868607356334@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1408077863705878007==" --===============1408077863705878007== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 1:31 PM rar--- via cctalk wrote: > Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney > Fantastic. Thank you for doing this. Wrongful conviction (especially of rape) is an egregious part of our "justice" system that happens more than most people know (or even care to know, which is also a failing of our system). Hopefully justice is eventually meted out to the lying perpetrator. 1 down, too many to go. Sellam --===============1408077863705878007==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 19 21:56:58 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fw: Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:56:27 +0000 Message-ID: <1720339627.3205640.1674165387691@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8046901895608205969==" --===============8046901895608205969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable @ Fred - it just might be the requirements to get a license aren't stringent= enough. =20 --===============8046901895608205969==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 19 22:02:14 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fw: Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 14:01:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3718523652841934543==" --===============3718523652841934543== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I think that self-driving cars should be required to have a licensed >> driver with hands on the wheel at 10 and 2, or 9 and 3. On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > 10 & 2?? What are you, old or something? > Modern training specifies 8 & 4 At least that's what I learned at the Skip > Barber School of Racing. Rather than exclude elderly drivers, let's amend that to simply two hands on the wheel. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3718523652841934543==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 19 22:02:33 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 22:01:43 +0000 Message-ID: <1106341608.3207627.1674165703829@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2149766982837364956==" --===============2149766982837364956== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I personally would love to hear the conversation. But I don't want to be pot= stirrer. And as devoted a Republican as I am (HA!), I'll be the first to say= every party has it's ample share of idiots. On Thursday, January 19, 2023, 04:29:29 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctal= k wrote: =20 =20 On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 1:17 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > I don't know. I always thought it was kind of a nice idea. Doctors fer > > instance are so stupid these days. They need all the help they can get. > > In what way are they so stupid? > I could answer this pretty much definitively but then it would definitely delve into a political argument, and so it should remain unanswered here. $ Sellam =20 --===============2149766982837364956==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 19 22:08:00 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fw: Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:07:34 -0700 Message-ID: <36c188ed-b93e-1879-93a0-c86251fce5ad@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7161584952149185231==" --===============7161584952149185231== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-19 3:01 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> I think that self-driving cars should be required to have a licensed >>> driver with hands on the wheel at 10 and 2, or 9 and 3. > > On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> 10 & 2??  What are you, old or something? >> Modern training specifies 8 & 4  At least that's what I learned at the >> Skip >> Barber School of Racing. > > Rather than exclude elderly drivers, let's amend that to simply two > hands on the wheel. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com > Driving with with your feet, is legal I belive. Ben. --===============7161584952149185231==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 19 22:15:14 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 22:14:43 +0000 Message-ID: <778885656.459536.1674166483544@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <167416386113.1586.16812074868607356334@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8311643358059027257==" --===============8311643358059027257== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great story. Now ... what should I do with my rev. 1 GW circuit board? Toss it and get the= latest? Or it still any good? =20 --===============8311643358059027257==-- From brain@jbrain.com Thu Jan 19 23:03:50 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 17:03:25 -0600 Message-ID: <9412242f-20fd-e480-b093-06975296afe0@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7045682129344188620==" --===============7045682129344188620== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/19/2023 3:38 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 19, 2023, at 4:31 PM, rar--- via cctalk w= rote: >> >> Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney >> >> January 19, 2023, Hunt Valley, MD =E2=80=94 Staff members of the System So= urce Computer Museum recently completed a project that helped exonerate David= Veney, wrongly convicted of rape in 1997. In 2005, after Mr. Veney sought a = new trial, the state found irregularities in the prosecution, released Mr. Ve= ney from prison, and declined to re-prosecute. ... > Wow. That is a marvelous story. > > Just one comment: using the GreaseWeazle makes sense here, but other option= s would include seeking out the help of the community. For example, 5.25 inc= h floppy drives are widely available, and reading RX50 format on an ordinary = drive in Linux is a trivial exercise. Similarly, feeding the recovered devic= e image to a SIMH instance would be easy enough. The tricky task of translat= ing the application data to readable text still remains in any of those appro= aches, of course. > > paul > I see it as seeking out the community.=C2=A0 Your point probably is about=20 casting a wider net to individuals, but I think asking an organization=20 to help creates more comfort, especially if you're talking about=20 irreplaceable data like this.=C2=A0 Given the age of the disk and the=20 expectation for errors, even if a single community member had been=20 asked, I doubt they would try to read it from Linux or similar.=C2=A0 It's an= =20 option, yes, but not a recommended one, since you might have limited=20 reads available, and a flux read gives you maximum data with minimum effort. Your SIMH thought makes a ton of sense.=C2=A0 Not knowing the effort here, I = would assume once the flux image was available and with the lack of SW=20 to do much with the data available anyway, treating it like a raw data=20 dump was probably the most expedient option to get to the end goal. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============7045682129344188620==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Jan 20 00:59:37 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 18:59:11 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3124906710754124539==" --===============3124906710754124539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/19/23 15:25, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 12:43 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > >> All I can say is if you haven't watched Terminator: the Sarah Connor >> Chronicles ... um why not? I didn't even know it existed prior to 3 years >> ago. Actually pretty thought provoking at times. Maybe ChatGPT will end up >> being like John Henry and save us from the terminators. Quite tje opposite >> of Colossus: the Forbin Project. Pretty freaky scary stuff. > > I finally got around to watching Colossus: The Forbin Project a few months > ago. Notwithstanding all the cool old tech and how it was integrated into > the story, I found it to be verily unsatisfying, and maybe even a little > dumb. > A major problem with the Forbin project is when I first saw it, I knew that the permissive action link in the nuclear-armed missile would prevent it from being detonated in the silo.  The PAL requires acceleration of liftoff, coast and deceleration when re-entering the atmosphere (at least) before the weapon can be armed.  this function is NOT under computer control. jon --===============3124906710754124539==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Jan 20 01:00:32 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fwd: Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 18:59:58 -0600 Message-ID: <17967162-0b46-5b23-0624-e6895fb920ef@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7103126261712837177==" --===============7103126261712837177== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 18:59:11 -0600 From: Jon Elson To: Sellam Abraham via cctalk On 1/19/23 15:25, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 12:43 PM Chris via cctalk > > wrote: > >> All I can say is if you haven't watched Terminator: the >> Sarah Connor >> Chronicles ... um why not? I didn't even know it existed >> prior to 3 years >> ago. Actually pretty thought provoking at times. Maybe >> ChatGPT will end up >> being like John Henry and save us from the terminators. >> Quite tje opposite >> of Colossus: the Forbin Project. Pretty freaky scary stuff. > > I finally got around to watching Colossus: The Forbin > Project a few months > ago. Notwithstanding all the cool old tech and how it was > integrated into > the story, I found it to be verily unsatisfying, and maybe > even a little > dumb. > A major problem with the Forbin project is when I first saw it, I knew that the permissive action link in the nuclear-armed missile would prevent it from being detonated in the silo.  The PAL requires acceleration of liftoff, coast and deceleration when re-entering the atmosphere (at least) before the weapon can be armed.  this function is NOT under computer control. jon --===============7103126261712837177==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Fri Jan 20 01:05:39 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 12:05:03 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167416374659.1586.13432934389844331988@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5948938594689959221==" --===============5948938594689959221== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You got an amazing bargain. I was expecting at least a magnitude higher price. On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, 8:29 am rar--- via cctalk, wrote: > We (Computer Museum @ System Source) picked up this unit today. > Here are a few snapshots after we pulled the unit off of the truck. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/2GvqTQukSEEnyoQp8 > > Bob Roswell > --===============5948938594689959221==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 20 01:14:29 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:13:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9412242f-20fd-e480-b093-06975296afe0@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8944731796571269220==" --===============8944731796571269220== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 19, 2023, at 6:03 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On 1/19/2023 3:38 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>> On Jan 19, 2023, at 4:31 PM, rar--- via cctalk = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney >>>=20 >>> January 19, 2023, Hunt Valley, MD =E2=80=94 Staff members of the System S= ource Computer Museum recently completed a project that helped exonerate Davi= d Veney, wrongly convicted of rape in 1997. In 2005, after Mr. Veney sought a= new trial, the state found irregularities in the prosecution, released Mr. V= eney from prison, and declined to re-prosecute. ... >> Wow. That is a marvelous story. >>=20 >> Just one comment: using the GreaseWeazle makes sense here, but other optio= ns would include seeking out the help of the community. For example, 5.25 in= ch floppy drives are widely available, and reading RX50 format on an ordinary= drive in Linux is a trivial exercise. Similarly, feeding the recovered devi= ce image to a SIMH instance would be easy enough. The tricky task of transla= ting the application data to readable text still remains in any of those appr= oaches, of course. >>=20 >> paul >>=20 > I see it as seeking out the community. Your point probably is about castin= g a wider net to individuals, but I think asking an organization to help crea= tes more comfort, especially if you're talking about irreplaceable data like = this. Given the age of the disk and the expectation for errors, even if a si= ngle community member had been asked, I doubt they would try to read it from = Linux or similar. It's an option, yes, but not a recommended one, since you = might have limited reads available, and a flux read gives you maximum data wi= th minimum effort. True. But if it is known to be a DEC (RX50) disk, reading it from Linux is a= well known standard thing to do. I have been doing it for more than 20 year= s, with RSTSFLX (writing, too). Standard PC floppies have no trouble at all,= you just have to set the mode to 10 sectors per track. Earlier still I did the same in DOS, using INT13 programming under djgcc. My point here is that the community is substantial and contains vast expertis= e on many details of old machinery. So my guess is that an email to the list= saying "hey, I need to recover the contents of files on an RSX RX50 floppy, = what is the easiest and most reliable way to do that" would have produced sev= eral high quality anwers in a matter of hours. > Your SIMH thought makes a ton of sense. Not knowing the effort here, I wou= ld assume once the flux image was available and with the lack of SW to do muc= h with the data available anyway, treating it like a raw data dump was probab= ly the most expedient option to get to the end goal. I was thinking that having the OS interpret the file structure would take tha= t part of complexity away. At that point you're still left with the question= of the application data format, but details of on disk structure are covered= this way. paul >=20 > Jim >=20 > --=20 > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com >=20 --===============8944731796571269220==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Jan 20 01:23:08 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 17:22:31 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1042560192740057629==" --===============1042560192740057629== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 5:13 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > True. But if it is known to be a DEC (RX50) disk, reading it from Linux > is a well known standard thing to do. I have been doing it for more than > 20 years, with RSTSFLX (writing, too). Standard PC floppies have no > trouble at all, you just have to set the mode to 10 sectors per track. > The first thing one should do is obtain an image of the disk. I'd hate for some guy to continue to have a conviction on their record because some (well meaning) community member messed up the disk. Once you have an image, you can use whatever tools (C code. loopback on Unix) you want to access decipher it. Also maybe it's not something that can be widely discussed. Most of all I'm amazed you're picking an argument over this. --===============1042560192740057629==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jan 20 01:25:23 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 17:24:46 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4545061481196967793==" --===============4545061481196967793== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 5:13 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > My point here is that the community is substantial and contains vast > expertise on many details of old machinery. So my guess is that an email > to the list saying "hey, I need to recover the contents of files on an RSX > RX50 floppy, what is the easiest and most reliable way to do that" would > have produced several high quality anwers in a matter of hours. > SysSrc has a web presence with an accessible front end and--most importantly--promotion. In comparison, to "enter" the CC list, you have to walk down a dark alleyway to an unmarked door and knock. Not at all the same thing. It is true there is a tremendous amount of expertise bursting forth from the members of this mailing list, but if we are to put ourselves out there as willing to volunteer for such work, there has to be promotion. Sellam --===============4545061481196967793==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 20 01:27:57 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:27:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8979727263658415767==" --===============8979727263658415767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 19, 2023, at 8:22 PM, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 5:13 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> True. But if it is known to be a DEC (RX50) disk, reading it from Linux >> is a well known standard thing to do. I have been doing it for more than >> 20 years, with RSTSFLX (writing, too). Standard PC floppies have no >> trouble at all, you just have to set the mode to 10 sectors per track. >>=20 >=20 > The first thing one should do is obtain an image of the disk. I'd hate > for some guy to continue to have a conviction on their record because some > (well meaning) community member messed up the disk. >=20 > Once you have an image, you can use whatever tools (C code. loopback on > Unix) you want to access decipher it. >=20 > Also maybe it's not something that can be widely discussed. >=20 > Most of all I'm amazed you're picking an argument over this. I don't think I'm picking an argument. All I meant to do is observe that the= classic computing community is a large group with a massive amount of knowle= dge, and that when dealing with old data recovery problems a good first step = is to seek out suggestions from that body of experts. It may well be that, in a case like this, the answer would have come out the = same. But it may also be that a faster and more reliable means would have ap= peared. paul --===============8979727263658415767==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Jan 20 01:32:30 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 17:31:53 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2294886887488526717==" --===============2294886887488526717== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 5:27 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > I don't think I'm picking an argument. All I meant to do is observe that > the classic computing community is a large group with a massive amount of > knowledge, > ok but they did achieve a successful resolution. i hope if they had become stuck they would have reached out as appropriate. --===============2294886887488526717==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 20 01:34:57 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:34:29 -0500 Message-ID: <6502FFE2-5498-4707-B8DD-FE400DCAB241@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6886465602508354677==" --===============6886465602508354677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 19, 2023, at 8:24 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 5:13 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> My point here is that the community is substantial and contains vast >> expertise on many details of old machinery. So my guess is that an email >> to the list saying "hey, I need to recover the contents of files on an RSX >> RX50 floppy, what is the easiest and most reliable way to do that" would >> have produced several high quality anwers in a matter of hours. >>=20 >=20 > SysSrc has a web presence with an accessible front end and--most > importantly--promotion. In comparison, to "enter" the CC list, you have to > walk down a dark alleyway to an unmarked door and knock. Not at all the > same thing. Absolutely. It makes perfect sense for the lawyers in this case to be talkin= g to SysSrc. > It is true there is a tremendous amount of expertise bursting forth from > the members of this mailing list, but if we are to put ourselves out there > as willing to volunteer for such work, there has to be promotion. >=20 > Sellam I see that I wasn't clear. My suggestion was that SysSrc -- who know this li= st -- could have reached out. You're certainly right that it wouldn't be exp= ected for outsiders to know about us. In this particular case, the data was recovered apparently without that wider= body of experts helping out. It might be that in some other similar case th= e outcome is different, where the help of the community might actually be nec= essary to sort through the obstacles. paul --===============6886465602508354677==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 01:36:32 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 01:35:56 +0000 Message-ID: <928124542.526173.1674178556747@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8552474095183662325==" --===============8552474095183662325== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If my 2 cents matters (not likely), I didn't see it as an argument either. A= n ancient DEC disk should best be handled by someone with loads of specific D= EC knowledge. If there are other ways to solve the problem, and there often a= re, hey use them. Are there any formats a GW can't handle? What about hard sectored disks? I gu= ess that would depwnd on what drive was used? =20 --===============8552474095183662325==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 01:42:02 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 17:41:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6663266675717543586==" --===============6663266675717543586== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> My point here is that the community is substantial and contains vast >> expertise on many details of old machinery. So my guess is that an email >> to the list saying "hey, I need to recover the contents of files on an RSX >> RX50 floppy, what is the easiest and most reliable way to do that" would >> have produced several high quality anwers in a matter of hours. On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > SysSrc has a web presence with an accessible front end and--most > importantly--promotion. In comparison, to "enter" the CC list, you have to > walk down a dark alleyway to an unmarked door and knock. Not at all the > same thing. > It is true there is a tremendous amount of expertise bursting forth from > the members of this mailing list, but if we are to put ourselves out there > as willing to volunteer for such work, there has to be promotion. 1) What would ChatGPT say was the best, safest, and most reliable way to recover ireplaceable files and file contents from an RX50 diskette? 2) As approached, it was multiple stages: read flux transitions, decipher sectors decipher file system to find appropriate file(s) (manually?) make sense out of the file contents. They did a good job of reinventing the wheel. Lots of people have the hardware and maybe software to do the first two Somebody with appropriate hardware/software might be able to trivially do the first three. The final step calls for the stenogrphy software and the original sstenographer, which they managed to do. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6663266675717543586==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jan 20 02:21:10 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 18:20:31 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6413607650822076938==" --===============6413607650822076938== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 5:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > SysSrc has a web presence with an accessible front end and--most > > importantly--promotion. In comparison, to "enter" the CC list, you have > to > > walk down a dark alleyway to an unmarked door and knock. Not at all the > > same thing. > > It is true there is a tremendous amount of expertise bursting forth from > > the members of this mailing list, but if we are to put ourselves out > there > > as willing to volunteer for such work, there has to be promotion. > > 1) What would ChatGPT say was the best, safest, and most reliable way to > recover ireplaceable files and file contents from an RX50 diskette? > Me: Dearest ChatGPT, what would be the best, safest, and most reliable way to recover irreplaceable files and file contents from an RX50 diskette? ChatGPT: The best, safest, and most reliable way to recover irreplaceable files and file contents from an RX50 diskette would be to send the diskette to a professional data recovery service. These services specialize in recovering data from damaged or corrupted media and have the equipment and expertise necessary to do so without causing further damage. Additionally, they can make a backup copy of the recovered data for safekeeping. CHATGPT HAS SPOKEN! They did a good job of reinventing the wheel. > Yes. > Lots of people have the hardware and maybe software to do the first two > > Somebody with appropriate hardware/software might be able to trivially do > the first three. > > The final step calls for the stenogrphy software and the original > sstenographer, which they managed to do. > One of VintageTech's primary service offerings was data conversion. Over the years I recovered data from a very diverse array of storage media. Anything I couldn't handle myself (which to be frank was not much because I had the hardware, software and documentation to figure out just about any format) I would outsource to someone I knew in the community who had the ability to do the job. I considered the ClasscCmp list my recruiting platform for vintage computer contractors ;) I guarantee there are a LOT of people out there who would love to know how they can get their old digital camera photos off of some long-obsolete memory card, or even a CD, to say nothing of a floppy disk, or specifically a [GASP!] 5.25" floppy disk(!!) (punched cards, papertape, and1/2" magnetic tape is just crazytalk, so don't even go there). If a "honeypot" site was set up to actively advertise data conversion services, and the requests made there were filtered here to the list, how many people would be interested in doing an occasional data conversion job for money? If the idea sounds agreeable, I'll put the infrastructure in place and get it rolling. Sellam --===============6413607650822076938==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 02:23:56 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 02:23:28 +0000 Message-ID: <1930188044.3297895.1674181408482@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0463005242075483640==" --===============0463005242075483640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to be honest at this point. A disk srive in some sense "responds" in = some sense to changes in flux density around the surface of disks. So what is= the GW picking up, other then what the drive is already reading? It's an int= erim device that sits between the drive amd the cable. It makes use of signal= s that travel between the drive and fdc. Does it read a disk better then say Diskimage can? =20 --===============0463005242075483640==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Jan 20 02:28:07 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 18:27:32 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1930188044.3297895.1674181408482@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3502320750283524798==" --===============3502320750283524798== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 6:23 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Does it read a disk better then say Diskimage can? It depends on what DiskImage is running on. There is presumably an OS and drivers between it and the raw media. --===============3502320750283524798==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 02:34:25 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 02:34:00 +0000 Message-ID: <519397924.538874.1674182040137@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3914251577378287699==" --===============3914251577378287699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now this ia going to sound naive, but could't every law firm and attorney ge= neral in the country be informed of the possibility of retrieving data from o= ld disks? And their volatility? And what to and not to do with an old disk un= til it's put in the hands of someone that could retrieve data? Now what if the case is that you have a disk, but know absolutely nothing abo= ut it. Is there a swiss army knife, something like a GW that'll handle it? REMEMBER AND DO NOT FORGET. YOU VERY WELL MAY GET ONLY 1 SHOT AT RETRIEVING I= T'S CONTENTS. There's alao optical methods used by the FBI. =20 --===============3914251577378287699==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 02:36:37 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 02:36:07 +0000 Message-ID: <590461480.3309836.1674182167239@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9110565357899166256==" --===============9110565357899166256== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If we're talking about the same diskimage program, I thought it ran under MS= /PC-DOS?=20 On Thursday, January 19, 2023, 09:27:47 PM EST, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 6:23 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Does it read a disk better then say Diskimage can? It depends on what DiskImage is running on.=C2=A0 There is presumably an OS a= nd drivers between it and the raw media. =20 --===============9110565357899166256==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 02:39:41 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 18:39:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1930188044.3297895.1674181408482@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1632408201264445815==" --===============1632408201264445815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I have to be honest at this point. A disk srive in some sense "responds" > in some sense to changes in flux density around the surface of disks. So > what is the GW picking up, other then what the drive is already reading? > It's an interim device that sits between the drive amd the cable. It > makes use of signals that travel between the drive and fdc. > > Does it read a disk better then say Diskimage can? Generally, no. But, it is an extremely useful tool when the OS can't help. Think of it as a disk controller that isn't limited to perfect sectors in the format(s) that that FDC is set up for. 1) it can get an image of the RAW flux level of data if you have a disk whose format is something that your FDC can't do. 2) If you have flaws/errors on the disk, you might be able to use it to get PART of a bad sector, when the FDC would just refuse to give you the bad sector. The stock FDC has software to fully integrate it with the OS, so you can use the DIRectory of the disk, and it can give you whatever specific file you want, rather than you having to manually run or create other software to decipher into sectors, and make sense of the file system. If there are multiple iterations of your file on the disk, the OS DIRectory lets you try to select the correct one. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1632408201264445815==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Jan 20 02:41:31 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 18:40:54 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <590461480.3309836.1674182167239@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3662564201932861136==" --===============3662564201932861136== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 6:36 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > If we're talking about the same diskimage program, I thought it ran under > MS/PC-DOS? > Do you mean imagedisk? It's still talking to the drive via the PC's disk controller. --===============3662564201932861136==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 02:45:52 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 02:45:24 +0000 Message-ID: <1906656623.3304230.1674182724553@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0265315917373152040==" --===============0265315917373152040== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm very very tired. Apologies. On Thursday, January 19, 2023, 09:41:13 = PM EST, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 6:36 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 If we're talking about the same diskimage program, I thought it ran u= nder > MS/PC-DOS? > Do you mean imagedisk?=C2=A0 It's still talking to the drive via the PC's disk controller. =20 --===============0265315917373152040==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Fri Jan 20 02:46:20 2023 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 03:45:53 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4250010632805442577==" --===============4250010632805442577== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 07:42:41PM -0800, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Me: Translate the disassembly of the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into > 7080 autocoder. > > ChatGPT: "It is not possible to simply translate the disassembly of the > boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into 7080 autocoder as the two are > different assembly languages for different processors. The boot sector code > for PC DOS 1.0 was written specifically for the x86 processor, while the > 7080 autocoder is for the 7080 processor. Additionally, the boot sector > code for PC DOS 1.0 is likely specific to the IBM PC, and would not run on > a machine using a 7080 processor. > > "To run PC DOS 1.0 on a machine with a 7080 processor, you would need to > rewrite the entire operating system from scratch in assembly language for > the 7080 processor." [...] Holy fork. This Chad Gepetto guy is much wiser than many managers who would like Chad to write code for them, with catastrophic results... But hey, they have good insurance and golden parachutes so no problem. Hint: I suppose a common user will never be able to get insurance against fallings of app composed by AI. Oh, those user agreements of the future. Even more fun than nowadays. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============4250010632805442577==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 02:47:32 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 18:47:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <519397924.538874.1674182040137@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3389272461768760095==" --===============3389272461768760095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Now this ia going to sound naive, but could't every law firm and attorney g= eneral in the country be informed of the possibility of retrieving data from = old disks? And their volatility? And what to and not to do with an old disk u= ntil it's put in the hands of someone that could retrieve data? > > Now what if the case is that you have a disk, but know absolutely nothing a= bout it. Is there a swiss army knife, something like a GW that'll handle it? > > REMEMBER AND DO NOT FORGET. YOU VERY WELL MAY GET ONLY 1 SHOT AT RETRIEVING= IT'S CONTENTS. > > There's alao optical methods used by the FBI. I tend to not be impressed by the technical prowess of the FBI. The NSA, and even the CIA have far superior abilities. But, I am generally even more impressed with Chuck. NSA and CIA bought copies of XenoCopy. And, there were many orders from=20 other addresses in Langley. (such as the "Bureau Of Public Roads") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3389272461768760095==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 02:49:27 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 02:49:02 +0000 Message-ID: <1695978155.2175255.1674182942560@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7698646819083670935==" --===============7698646819083670935== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok. So it's ultimately superior to using s/w alone.=20 So what disks can't be read by a pc (does the uP matter?) equipped with 1? Ju= st curious of a few examples, not expecting a comprehensive list. If there ar= e any. On Thursday, January 19, 2023, 09:39:21 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I have to be honest at this point. A disk srive in some sense "responds"=20 > in some sense to changes in flux density around the surface of disks. So=20 > what is the GW picking up, other then what the drive is already reading?=20 > It's an interim device that sits between the drive amd the cable. It=20 > makes use of signals that travel between the drive and fdc. > > Does it read a disk better then say Diskimage can? Generally, no. But, it is an extremely useful tool when the OS can't help.=C2=A0 Think of it= =20 as a disk controller that isn't limited to perfect sectors in the=20 format(s) that that FDC is set up for. 1) it can get an image of the RAW flux level of data if you have a=20 disk whose format is something that your FDC can't do. 2) If you have flaws/errors on the disk, you might be able to use it to=20 get PART of a bad sector, when the FDC would just refuse to give you the=20 bad sector. The stock FDC has software to fully integrate it with the OS, so you can=20 use the DIRectory of the disk, and it can give you whatever specific file=20 you want, rather than you having to manually run or create other software=20 to decipher into sectors, and make sense of the file system.=C2=A0 If there a= re=20 multiple iterations of your file on the disk, the OS DIRectory lets you=20 try to select the correct one. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cisin(a)xe= nosoft.com =20 --===============7698646819083670935==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Jan 20 02:53:08 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 18:52:32 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1695978155.2175255.1674182942560@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6015279299737263923==" --===============6015279299737263923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 6:49 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Ok. So it's ultimately superior to using s/w alone. > I have no idea what you're asking here. If you're tired, this thread will still be here tomorrow :) --===============6015279299737263923==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 03:00:50 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 03:00:03 +0000 Message-ID: <1188837085.3300510.1674183603869@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2947283631977699731==" --===============2947283631977699731== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable @ Fred I remember Chuck making reference to "a" Squid some time ago. It turns out th= e term refers to software. I had suspected it was much more. =20 --===============2947283631977699731==-- From rar@syssrc.com Fri Jan 20 03:07:47 2023 From: rar To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 03:07:20 +0000 Message-ID: <93cf83c4ed6d4d5ea9fc74b42616eae0@syssrc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3891690352844789671==" --===============3891690352844789671== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The machine is in great condition. It was (carefully) turned on this evening= ! Blinking Lights! Bob Roswell --===============3891690352844789671==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Jan 20 03:08:40 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:08:12 -0600 Message-ID: <3f62a016-8c82-648f-141f-45746bba1841@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <1930188044.3297895.1674181408482@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7870498212658021122==" --===============7870498212658021122== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/19/2023 8:23 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I have to be honest at this point. A disk srive in some sense "responds" = in some sense to changes in flux density around the surface of disks. So what= is the GW picking up, other then what the drive is already reading? It's an = interim device that sits between the drive amd the cable. It makes use of sig= nals that travel between the drive and fdc. > > Does it read a disk better then say Diskimage can? I think folks are being too MFM-centric in their responses to this question. "ImageDisk can identify, read and write any disk format that a PC floppy=20 controller can handle =E2=80=94 so *it can do most FM/MFM formats*, but not=20 Amiga disks with odd timing, or Commodore 8-bit disks with GCR encoding. " GW can do the same, but can also handle GCR encoded disks, the Amiga=20 disks noted above, and it might be able to do older Apple Mac 720K disks It's really not fair to compare ImageDisk to GW.=C2=A0 ImageDisk is limited=20 to the configuration options and assumptions built into the FDC. GW has=20 no such restriction. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com =20 www.jbrain.com --===============7870498212658021122==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Jan 20 03:09:15 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:08:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1188837085.3300510.1674183603869@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3820795202876459235==" --===============3820795202876459235== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is an interesting article on Kryoflux. GreaseWeazle is basically an open-source equivalent. http://practicaltechnologyforarchives.org/issue2_waugh On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 7:00 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > @ Fred > > I remember Chuck making reference to "a" Squid some time ago. It turns out > the term refers to software. I had suspected it was much more. --===============3820795202876459235==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 03:13:55 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:13:32 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1695978155.2175255.1674182942560@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0866855603811565796==" --===============0866855603811565796== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Ok. So it's ultimately superior to using s/w alone. > > So what disks can't be read by a pc (does the uP matter?) equipped with > 1? Just curious of a few examples, not expecting a comprehensive list. > If there are any. I haven't encountered any magnetic disks for which a flux-transition device shouldn't be able to do it. But, there well might be. (such as recpording audio tones, instead of flux transitioning bits) The microprocessor does not matter, but the disk controller does. Using just the Operating System, with no additional software, you are limited to those disks. We estimate that there are about 2500 different disk formats. But, many other computers used similar disk controllers, most made by Western Digital and NEC. With a similar controller and appropriate drive, software in the PC can read a lot of other formats. http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html is a list of the formats that I had managed to do on PC by Y2K. Macintosh 1.4M can be read with PC. But, AppleII (Apple-DOS, Apple CP/M, Apple Pascal/P-System, ProDos), and Macintosh 400K and 800K can't be easily read by PC. (GCR) There are quite a few others with incompatabilities with the PC FDC. Not all PC FDC's can handle FM/single-density, etc. That is where a flux-transition device is the way to go. There are some bizarre tricks, such as switching drives in mid-sector, that can sometimes fool the FDC, and enable some things such as Amiga. "Apple Turnover" was a bespoke single purpose flux-like device specifically for handling AppleII on PC -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0866855603811565796==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 03:19:12 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:18:47 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7273457380322618254==" --===============7273457380322618254== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html is a list of the formats that I had managed to do on PC by Y2K. Note that that was reading, deciphering, and displaying a DIRectory, and then copying selected FILES. Not a raw dump. File content, such as loading Wordstar files into WordPervert, is a completely separate set of issues. --===============7273457380322618254==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 03:21:20 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:20:53 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3f62a016-8c82-648f-141f-45746bba1841@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0321868867281628519==" --===============0321868867281628519== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I think folks are being too MFM-centric in their responses to this question. > > "ImageDisk can identify, read and write any disk format that a PC floppy=20 > controller can handle =E2=80=94 so *it can do most FM/MFM formats*, but not= Amiga=20 > disks with odd timing, or Commodore 8-bit disks with GCR encoding. " > > GW can do the same, but can also handle GCR encoded disks, the Amiga disks = > noted above, and it might be able to do older Apple Mac 720K disks > > It's really not fair to compare ImageDisk to GW.=C2=A0 ImageDisk is limited= to=20 > the configuration options and assumptions built into the FDC. GW has no suc= h=20 > restriction. Exactly. Some other disk formats can be done with appropriate special software. The flux transition device is the hardware for when that approach isn't=20 possible. --===============0321868867281628519==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 03:22:21 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 03:21:54 +0000 Message-ID: <728178075.3305860.1674184914560@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0661842881140074435==" --===============0661842881140074435== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So the ideal setup for best utilizing a GW is what? Or does it not matter if= it's a 5150 or a Pentium4? I habe an early GW board (bare)? Should I populate that? Or is it essential t= o have the latest (rec. 4?)? =20 --===============0661842881140074435==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 03:29:11 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:28:46 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <728178075.3305860.1674184914560@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5265795351426466260==" --===============5265795351426466260== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > So the ideal setup for best utilizing a GW is what? Or does it not > matter if it's a 5150 or a Pentium4? I would recommend 5170 (AT), to also have the 500K bps data transfer rate of its FDC. Newer PCs often have unnecessary complications. Many no longer even support floppies! --===============5265795351426466260==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 03:45:54 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 03:45:25 +0000 Message-ID: <630492409.3304599.1674186325683@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2914055200592874550==" --===============2914055200592874550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah I've heard rumors to that effect. Iirc my first serverboard, an Intel d= ual socket 771 s5000vsa4dimmr ssi-eeb EATX behemoth didn't have sloppy suppor= t. Which was so weird to me. I had to sell it. Luckily I found a 5170 a few years ago. These 2 ~18 year old kids were carryi= ng it out to the road. They looked at me dumbfounded. But everyone in NJ alwa= ys looks that way. Apparently it was dad's work at home computer. He worked f= or a little known outfit known as Chase. Said the badge stuck to the side any= way. Kelly Leavitt said he once found a puter that belonged to an ObGyn. I had to = ask - were there any pictures on it LOL LOL LOL. What the! Eeeeeewwww On = Thursday, January 19, 2023, 10:28:52 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > So the ideal setup for best utilizing a GW is what? Or does it not=20 > matter if it's a 5150 or a Pentium4? I would recommend 5170 (AT), to also have the 500K bps data transfer rate=20 of its FDC. Newer PCs often have unnecessary complications.=C2=A0 Many no longer even=20 support floppies! =20 --===============2914055200592874550==-- From cramcram@gmail.com Fri Jan 20 03:55:27 2023 From: Marc Howard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 22:54:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2709225939081646482==" --===============2709225939081646482== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Most white LEDs are really blue LEDs with a thin yellow phosphor coating (the eye sees yellow as red + green). I doubt they have much energy in the IR range. IR LED is probably the way to go. How hard is it to get to that bulb? Marc On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 4:02 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jan 19, 2023, at 2:46 PM, David Gesswein via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 12:42:26PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: > >> On 1/17/23 21:18, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > >>> Does anyone know if that light bulb is still available? I’m not sure > what > >>> the response of that photo sensor is and that might rule out using a > led > >>> replacement. The fact that the bulb is almost certainty driven below > the > >>> rated voltage also complicates matters. > >> > >> If you need JUST ONE badly enough, you can probably keep it going. > Likely > >> an LED could be used as a substitute. But, a roughly equivalent bulb > with > >> the wrong base could likely be found and hacked. > >> > > > > Originally discussing RK05 head position sensor bulb. I have replaced > it. The > > offical part to replace it isn't available. You can open it up and put in > > a new bulb. I wasn't able to quickly find what bulb I used a number of > > years ago but if someone really needs to know I can dig further. One of > the > > small ones with wires. It doesn't use bulb with base. LED didn't work. I > > think sensor is IR. > > Hard to know what the sensor wants given that it isn't described in any > DEC documents I could find. The schematics do mention that the light bulb > runs on +5 volts, which suggests that indeed it might be below its rated > voltage. > > If the sensors want IR you could try an IR LED. Or a white LED on the > theory that it's a broadband light source... > > paul > > --===============2709225939081646482==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Jan 20 05:15:07 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 23:14:26 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8017508999325318137==" --===============8017508999325318137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/19/2023 9:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> So the ideal setup for best utilizing a GW is what? Or does it not >> matter if it's a 5150 or a Pentium4? > > I would recommend 5170 (AT), to also have the 500K bps data transfer > rate of its FDC. > > Newer PCs often have unnecessary complications.  Many no longer even > support floppies! > > > Maybe 5170 means something different to everyone else here than it does to me (I thought it meant IBM PC AT), but GW requires a machine capable of USB, and I think the system needs to run either a recent version of Windows or Linux OS, or be a recent vintage MacOS (maybe a FrankenMac would work, but still, something that will run a recent MacOS version) Maybe the question is about ImageDisk, which the 5170 would be fine for (I have a PII sitting here that runs it with a 1.2MB/1.44MB switchable dual disk in a half height bay, and a 360kB head load Tec that I think I bought from Chuck or at least someone on here (still working awesome, BTW.  OS is DOS 6.XX (whatever the newest was before v7 dual boot with Ubuntu) Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============8017508999325318137==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Jan 20 05:22:59 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 00:22:24 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4370466017164473526==" --===============4370466017164473526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have had good luck with generic early Pentium systems (pre P-4) that still have a BIOS that can handle 5 1/4" drives. Best of both worlds in that you get he USB support too. AT the Kennett Classic museum it's a service we offer to make disk images, we have a lot of walk in traffic to copy old disks to a usb stick. Bill On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 12:14 AM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 1/19/2023 9:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > >> So the ideal setup for best utilizing a GW is what? Or does it not > >> matter if it's a 5150 or a Pentium4? > > > > I would recommend 5170 (AT), to also have the 500K bps data transfer > > rate of its FDC. > > > > Newer PCs often have unnecessary complications. Many no longer even > > support floppies! > > > > > > > Maybe 5170 means something different to everyone else here than it does > to me (I thought it meant IBM PC AT), but GW requires a machine capable > of USB, and I think the system needs to run either a recent version of > Windows or Linux OS, or be a recent vintage MacOS (maybe a FrankenMac > would work, but still, something that will run a recent MacOS version) > > Maybe the question is about ImageDisk, which the 5170 would be fine for > (I have a PII sitting here that runs it with a 1.2MB/1.44MB switchable > dual disk in a half height bay, and a 360kB head load Tec that I think I > bought from Chuck or at least someone on here (still working awesome, > BTW. OS is DOS 6.XX (whatever the newest was before v7 dual boot with > Ubuntu) > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > --===============4370466017164473526==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Jan 20 05:28:48 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:28:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0542747660589304786==" --===============0542747660589304786== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 9:14 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > Maybe 5170 means something different to everyone else here than it does > to me (I thought it meant IBM PC AT), but GW requires a machine capable > of USB, and I think the system needs to run either a recent version of > Windows or Linux OS, or be a recent vintage MacOS (maybe a FrankenMac > would work, but still, something that will run a recent MacOS version) > I shared you confusion. To me GW is this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125672833326 (and before this, an STM Blue Pill). Plus the software here: https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki I personally wouldn't be considering a Pentium 4 :) --===============0542747660589304786==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Jan 20 05:56:18 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 00:55:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5409704734991141070==" --===============5409704734991141070== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My catweasel 4, which I assume is more or less the same thing works fine in a p3 pentium system. Is the hreaseweazle totally different? On Fri, Jan 20, 2023, 12:28 AM Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 9:14 PM Jim Brain via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > Maybe 5170 means something different to everyone else here than it does > > to me (I thought it meant IBM PC AT), but GW requires a machine capable > > of USB, and I think the system needs to run either a recent version of > > Windows or Linux OS, or be a recent vintage MacOS (maybe a FrankenMac > > would work, but still, something that will run a recent MacOS version) > > > > I shared you confusion. To me GW is this: > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125672833326 (and before this, > an STM Blue Pill). Plus the software here: > https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki > > I personally wouldn't be considering a Pentium 4 :) > --===============5409704734991141070==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jan 20 06:05:45 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 22:05:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1719835243387086071==" --===============1719835243387086071== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/19/23 17:22, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > The first thing one should do is obtain an image of the disk. I'd hate > for some guy to continue to have a conviction on their record because some > (well meaning) community member messed up the disk. > Does anyone remember the TV series "The New Detectives" from about 25 years ago? One episode featured law enforcement, (Naval CIS maybe) who apprehended a suspect who quietly cut a 5.25" disk into pieces using pinking shears. The guys in the lab assembled the bits on another (intact) disk using some sort of adhesive and a sacrificial drive. They got enough of the guy's journal for a conviction. In the background on a system, you can see the display from AnaDisk... So, nihil sub sole novum. --Chuck --===============1719835243387086071==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jan 20 06:07:37 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 22:07:07 -0800 Message-ID: <8f4f23aa-c4d7-cbbb-dd67-cc0a210624f1@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9079891550609645013==" --===============9079891550609645013== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/19/23 16:59, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > A major problem with the Forbin project is when I first saw it, I knew > that the permissive action link in the nuclear-armed missile would > prevent it from being detonated in the silo.  The PAL requires > acceleration of liftoff, coast and deceleration when re-entering the > atmosphere (at least) before the weapon can be armed.  this function is > NOT under computer control. I remember seeing Dr. Forbin's creation and wondering where the heck did the props guys get all of the 1620 panels and CDC 3000 "green glass" cabinets? Don't remember much of the plot, myself. --Chuck --===============9079891550609645013==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jan 20 06:15:00 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 22:14:31 -0800 Message-ID: <6cbfd617-a2a8-7223-8410-7cf723d7efc4@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5770493369094228701==" --===============5770493369094228701== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/19/23 21:55, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > My catweasel 4, which I assume is more or less the same thing works fine in > a p3 pentium system. Is the hreaseweazle totally different? > Not really. I do the same as the Catweasel, but with a STM32F407 board running at 168MHz. The capture clock can go as high as 84MHz, so better than the Catweasel. I image to SD and also do histograms on the fly as I'm reading. It's what I've been saying for years--a cheap MCU can both emulate a floppy (the Gotek uses a lowly STM32F107) as well as obtain accurate transition samples. I've also got a STM32F767 board that one day, I hope to hook to the analog output of the read amplifiers. The ADC on that thing can run at a 45MHz sample clock. When I get round tuit... My board has about 8 MB of PSRAM; more than enough for a track's worth of analog samples. --Chuck --===============5770493369094228701==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Jan 20 06:18:37 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 00:18:13 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1878569589864595711==" --===============1878569589864595711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/19/2023 11:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > My catweasel 4, which I assume is more or less the same thing works fine in > a p3 pentium system. Is the hreaseweazle totally different? It is.  It's a small STM32-based uC that supports USB, and so can be loaded with firmware to look like a USB device on a PC USB chain.  The GPIO of the uC then connects directly to the FD and tickles the signals and reads the raw data, sending it onto the PC via USB. Tony provided the links in the response you quoted.  You can buy premade GW PCBs, but the original design was just a small STM32 "Blue Pill" dev board and an FD.  The BluePill was like $10 or so, making this much cheaper than KryoFLux (I believe it was designed as a rebuttal for the high priced and "walled garden" nature of KryoFlux) or other related projects like DiscFerret and/or discontinued solutions like CatWeazel (which was a plug in card and harder to support on newer machines) Jim --===============1878569589864595711==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Fri Jan 20 06:20:24 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:27:40 -0500 Message-ID: <153d4647-178e-bba0-b3bf-65c7227c7fa6@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1821028987532484457==" --===============1821028987532484457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The majority of the examples in the textbook were just simple decision > trees!   Trivial to flowchart.  And if you can follow a troubleshooting > flowchart, you are already doing what the "expert system" does. Pretty much. I remember typing in "Animal Guess" on my Vic-20 from an article in Compute. I was so amazed by it that I convinced my dad to get an 8k, then a 16k, then a 3 board adapter so I could run 24k of memory to keep it going. Then when I ran out of memory and patience with the tape drive I programmed it to bring in parts of the tree from the floppy disk.... First program I ever worked on that ate an entire 1541 floppy drive with animal information. Amazing.... C --===============1821028987532484457==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Fri Jan 20 06:20:43 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 16:35:36 -0500 Message-ID: <5c8e3952-5c11-3152-036c-d2a2f6d67427@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <167416374659.1586.13432934389844331988@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4326341231934574201==" --===============4326341231934574201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cool! Let me know when you get it running, I've got a box of LINCTapes I wanted to read from the pdp12. CZ On 1/19/2023 4:29 PM, rar--- via cctalk wrote: > We (Computer Museum @ System Source) picked up this unit today. > Here are a few snapshots after we pulled the unit off of the truck. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/2GvqTQukSEEnyoQp8 > > Bob Roswell --===============4326341231934574201==-- From broswell@syssrc.com Fri Jan 20 06:21:07 2023 From: Bob Roswell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150 Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:22:27 +0000 Message-ID: <968bfbef4505495db912b7de4ce897cd@syssrc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6990424890170455654==" --===============6990424890170455654== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Confirmed that the LINC in question is now at the Computer Museum @ System So= urce This one is in great condition (except for the large live spider) Pictures f= rom unloading the truck https://photos.app.goo.gl/2GvqTQukSEEnyoQp8 Bob Roswell museum(a)syssrc.com https://museum.syssrc.com --===============6990424890170455654==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Fri Jan 20 06:21:25 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 16:43:13 -0500 Message-ID: <9e33b2a1-9dd6-62c6-0aff-4254d14cef73@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5504061932644050167==" --===============5504061932644050167== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Just one comment: using the GreaseWeazle makes sense here, but other option= s would include seeking out the help of the community. For example, 5.25 inc= h floppy drives are widely available, and reading RX50 format on an ordinary = drive in Linux is a trivial exercise. Similarly, feeding the recovered devic= e image to a SIMH instance would be easy enough. The tricky task of translat= ing the application data to readable text still remains in any of those appro= aches, of course. This is an interesting case. I have done digital forensic work, and I=20 would not stick such a disk in one of my RX50's in any case. A museum=20 having a dedicated system with write hardware blocked and a drive that=20 is known to not eat disks is the right way to go. Kudos to System Source. It's good to be able to do this. >=20 > paul >=20 --===============5504061932644050167==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Jan 20 06:21:43 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 22:20:26 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3293396206054266986==" --===============3293396206054266986== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 9:55 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > My catweasel 4, which I assume is more or less the same thing works fine in > a p3 pentium system. Is the hreaseweazle totally different? > The above is a PCI card, no? From early 2000s? The grease weasel is - as already stated - USB based. 2020 era. The user space is python. I'm sure given enough effort you could get it running on a p3 running Win95 but I'm not sure why you would. --===============3293396206054266986==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Jan 20 06:31:41 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 22:31:05 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0922546684466449821==" --===============0922546684466449821== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 10:18 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > cheaper than KryoFLux (I believe it was designed as a rebuttal for the > high priced and "walled garden" nature of KryoFlux) or other related > projects like DiscFerret and/or discontinued solutions like CatWeazel > (which was a plug in card and harder to support on newer machines) > I figured it just was a logical continuation .... Keir Fraser also wrote FlashFloppy (the alternative firmware for the Gotek) and the associated Disk Utilities software which also is now used in GW. Obviously FOSS is his focus (Xen etc). I'm trying now to forget how much I spent on my Kryoflux :-) > --===============0922546684466449821==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 20 09:28:09 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:27:35 +0100 Message-ID: <98aa8a6-1ddf-1324-8115-8225417badc9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0649577615941371679==" --===============0649577615941371679== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, David Gesswein wrote: > Originally discussing RK05 head position sensor bulb. I have replaced it. T= he > offical part to replace it isn't available. You can open it up and put in > a new bulb. I wasn't able to quickly find what bulb I used a number of > years ago but if someone really needs to know I can dig further. One of the > small ones with wires. It doesn't use bulb with base. LED didn't work. I > think sensor is IR. I have also replaced it many years ago. I bought a hand full of 5V micro=20 miniature light bulbs with wires. I think I bought them at B=C3=BCrklin back = then. Anyways, they were a 1:1 match and the replacement works like a=20 charm. I guess that the filament orientation in the buld is important and=20 that it should be parallel to the graticule. Christian --===============0649577615941371679==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 20 09:34:35 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:34:06 +0100 Message-ID: <47a6d5c-3e80-9744-9d76-57c2f76d441c@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <167416386113.1586.16812074868607356334@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3974209350058962472==" --===============3974209350058962472== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, rar(a)syssrc.com wrote: [... blob of text ...] > It had been written on a DEC PDP-11 minicomputer using the RSX-11 > Operating System. Although the museum has a PDP-11 in its collection, > it had not yet been restored and could not be started. Brendan Becker, [...] > Brendan set up a ?Greaseweazle,? a device that reads the magnetic flux > transitions on the floppy disk without regard to operating systems, disk [...] Isn't that a bit overcomplicated? I mean, they *are* standard IBM format floppys that can be read with a normal PC floppy controller. I really wonder why the museum did not know this. Maybe even PUTR could have been used to copy off the files from the disks. Christian --===============3974209350058962472==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 20 09:49:09 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:48:38 +0100 Message-ID: <2cee93b4-2e9d-f6b5-4de-483ba5736dda@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <3f62a016-8c82-648f-141f-45746bba1841@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5153099402459702934==" --===============5153099402459702934== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Jim Brain wrote: > GW can do the same, but can also handle GCR encoded disks, the Amiga disks > noted above, and it might be able to do older Apple Mac 720K disks All these Weazle thingies are just pulse timing samplers plus floppy drive controllers. The interpretation of the timing information is separately done in software, with the hazzle of implementing some kind of software PLL. Been there, done that with my own Linux software written for a modified version of the MFM hard disk emulator running on my Beagle Bone White. The setup is even able to write such images back to disk (I have successfully used it to create Apple 2 GCR and Amiga MFM disks). Christian --===============5153099402459702934==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 20 09:53:50 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:53:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0280359447773920783==" --===============0280359447773920783== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Fred Cisin wrote: > I would recommend 5170 (AT), to also have the 500K bps data transfer rate o= f=20 > its FDC. I just had a good laugh ;-) > Newer PCs often have unnecessary complications. Many no longer even suppor= t=20 > floppies! Since when does the Weazle need a floppy controller? It's an autonomous=20 device. And you *do* need a modern PC since it is attached via USB. Christian --===============0280359447773920783==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 10:16:48 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:16:15 +0000 Message-ID: <2071840993.3359667.1674209775990@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7746231962179445399==" --===============7746231962179445399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems at least the early versions need a fdc. Afaik my bare board is the = first iteration. It also controls via usb (-c). I'm still figuring stuff out.= Like "take 1 blue pill prior to initializing device". Or somethink like that. On Friday, January 20, 2023, 04:53:34 AM EST, Christian Corti via cctalk= wrote: =20 =20 On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Fred Cisin wrote: > I would recommend 5170 (AT), to also have the 500K bps data transfer rate o= f=20 > its FDC. I just had a good laugh ;-) > Newer PCs often have unnecessary complications.=C2=A0 Many no longer even s= upport=20 > floppies! Since when does the Weazle need a floppy controller? It's an autonomous=20 device. And you *do* need a modern PC since it is attached via USB. Christian =20 --===============7746231962179445399==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Fri Jan 20 10:37:23 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:36:51 +0000 Message-ID: <31b101d92cbb$1beccab0$53c66010$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47a6d5c-3e80-9744-9d76-57c2f76d441c@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2224377042761967547==" --===============2224377042761967547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Corti via cctalk > Sent: 20 January 2023 09:34 > To: ClassicCmp > Cc: Christian Corti > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate > Maryland Man > > On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, rar(a)syssrc.com wrote: > [... blob of text ...] > > It had been written on a DEC PDP-11 minicomputer using the RSX-11 > > Operating System. Although the museum has a PDP-11 in its collection, > > it had not yet been restored and could not be started. Brendan > > Becker, > [...] > > Brendan set up a ?Greaseweazle,? a device that reads the magnetic flux > > transitions on the floppy disk without regard to operating systems, > > disk > [...] > > Isn't that a bit overcomplicated? I mean, they *are* standard IBM format > floppys that can be read with a normal PC floppy controller. > I really wonder why the museum did not know this. Maybe even PUTR could > have been used to copy off the files from the disks. They can, but once you hit a read error a PC goes into re-try mode and you run the risk of dirtying the heads and damaging the disk. With one of these tools you read the flux transitions of the disk, so a whole track and then sort the data out. This reduces the risk of damaging the disk and the drive. > > > Christian Dave --===============2224377042761967547==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 14:07:28 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 14:06:48 +0000 Message-ID: <925103427.3432400.1674223608544@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <925103427.3432400.1674223608544.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6608556719388771286==" --===============6608556719388771286== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --===============6608556719388771286==-- From mazzinia@tin.it Fri Jan 20 14:38:41 2023 From: mazzinia@tin.it To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:14:15 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <925103427.3432400.1674223608544@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0122089326650867272==" --===============0122089326650867272== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Missing details ? From: Chris via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 3:07 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com Subject: [cctalk] 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 --===============0122089326650867272==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 20 14:43:56 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 09:43:14 -0500 Message-ID: <9809379E-A1FA-4860-9280-6602D0BFA474@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <98aa8a6-1ddf-1324-8115-8225417badc9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8445491914605065631==" --===============8445491914605065631== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 20, 2023, at 4:27 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, David Gesswein wrote: >> Originally discussing RK05 head position sensor bulb. I have replaced it. = The >> offical part to replace it isn't available. You can open it up and put in >> a new bulb. I wasn't able to quickly find what bulb I used a number of >> years ago but if someone really needs to know I can dig further. One of the >> small ones with wires. It doesn't use bulb with base. LED didn't work. I >> think sensor is IR. >=20 > I have also replaced it many years ago. I bought a hand full of 5V micro mi= niature light bulbs with wires. I think I bought them at B=C3=BCrklin back th= en. Anyways, they were a 1:1 match and the replacement works like a charm. I = guess that the filament orientation in the buld is important and that it shou= ld be parallel to the graticule. From the looks of the setup (a Moir=C3=A9 system) you'd want reasonably unifo= rm illumination. So parallel to the graticule would spread out the light a b= it. paul --===============8445491914605065631==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 20 14:51:18 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 09:50:48 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2553015499090253237==" --===============2553015499090253237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 19, 2023, at 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Now this ia going to sound naive, but could't every law firm and attorney = general in the country be informed of the possibility of retrieving data from= old disks? And their volatility? And what to and not to do with an old disk = until it's put in the hands of someone that could retrieve data? >>=20 >> Now what if the case is that you have a disk, but know absolutely nothing = about it. Is there a swiss army knife, something like a GW that'll handle it? >>=20 >> REMEMBER AND DO NOT FORGET. YOU VERY WELL MAY GET ONLY 1 SHOT AT RETRIEVIN= G IT'S CONTENTS. >>=20 >> There's alao optical methods used by the FBI. >=20 > I tend to not be impressed by the technical prowess of the FBI. I haven't worked with them, but I remember getting into a discussion with a s= tate police agency some years ago, who had acquired one of our SAN arrays as = evidence in some case they were working. I was asked to help them. They wanted to know about the BIOS settings and whether the RAID was "left to= right" or "right to left". They got very annoyed when I told them the produ= ct has no BIOS and isn't either left to right or right to left, but identifie= s the drives according to labels written on them at setup time. And in any c= ase, since it's a virtual LUN device the RAID layout was the least of their p= roblems. In the end they stopped asking questions; apparently the whole thing was much= too difficult for them to grok. I suspect they never got any data off that = system. I suspect there's more skill in other places, but what struck me most was the= unwillingness to accept answers and teching from people who know what they a= re talking about. paul --===============2553015499090253237==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 15:23:28 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:22:56 +0000 Message-ID: <2078970263.3440905.1674228176529@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3919320140521661138==" --===============3919320140521661138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As an aside, I don't know if it's true, but I was told at least in Pennsylva= nia the SP and FBI use the same computer system. Have exclusive access to the= same databases maybe. Wbereas normal cops won't. There may be truth to it, a= s 1 Sunday night, when the police dept. shut down (!) I opted to call the sta= te police about a problem I was having. I left my namw with someone or on a r= ecording, can't remember. The next day 7 FBI goons were knocking on my door. = They were looking for a fugitive who used "my" name, amongst others, as an al= ias. They wanted to just walk right in an browse around. Until I reminded the= m of my Constitutional rights. I had cooperated up until that point, lifted m= y shirt to show them I was unarmed, produced my DL. They flippin knew I wasn'= t who they were looking for. They even showed me his photo! But still wanted = to be assholes. Don't ever trust law enforcement. You may live to regret it. = They will sweet talk, smile you to death. Lie, lie, lie. And hope they have s= omething on you. What they insinuated might be incriminating was a stack of v= ery old computers they could see from the door. They didn't want to leave, un= til I threw a tiny tantrum. Then surveilled me in a dark green lincoln for a = spell. Man was I pissed. And learned a few things that day. =20 --===============3919320140521661138==-- From jackberry@outlook.com Fri Jan 20 15:53:58 2023 From: Jack Berry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:53:34 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <925103427.3432400.1674223608544@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6959881105706097864==" --===============6959881105706097864== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Location? From: Chris via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 9:07 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com Subject: [cctalk] 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 --===============6959881105706097864==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 16:20:26 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:19:57 +0000 Message-ID: <556653542.3481839.1674231597078@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR10MB44336EED3C41580B2BC8BF41A1C59=40CO1PR10MB?= =?utf-8?q?4433=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9156603098541385997==" --===============9156603098541385997== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nothings for sale (at the moment at least). This phone ia gwtting wonky. And= making it's own decisions. And I hadn't had breakfast when I started to post= . Sorry. I have 2 IRIX sets. 15 disk 6.5.4 iinm. And a 3 diak 6.5.6. Have 2 Indys, 1 i= s busted up, the 1 I'll wind up keeping for an extended period probably. 1 In= dy has an r5000 I think and a graphics card. The other is mediocre. Also have= an R1000 Impact I2. Question is are these versions of Irix suitable. Or couldnI do better. And on= account of SGIs licensing scheme, which attaches a specific os version to a = maxhine (or vice versa), does that entitle me to obtain and install those spe= cific versions. Put anotjer way if I obtained images from somewhere, installe= d the correct versions of Irix, would thoae machines then be legit? Or am I s= upposed to pay through the nose for a subscription or whatever? Take the I2s for instance. Is the hardware any more reliable, longevity wise,= then your average good quality pc? On Friday, January 20, 2023, 10:53:41 AM EST, Jack Berry via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 Location? From: Chris via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 9:07 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com Subject: [cctalk] 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 =20 --===============9156603098541385997==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Fri Jan 20 17:33:34 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Disk pack production tools Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 12:33:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5794394006806181054==" --===============5794394006806181054== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I used to gouge out and replace those bulbs in the RK05. The original part was all in one piece, emitter and receiver, but later they made the emitter part easy to remove and I kept one re-lamped in my kit for a quick change. I still had a pack of them a year or two ago, but donated them to the National Museum of Computing at Bletchley Park in England.  If Sean is on this list maybe he can read the part number off the package. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2023-01-19 22:54, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > Most white LEDs are really blue LEDs with a thin yellow phosphor coating > (the eye sees yellow as red + green). I doubt they have much energy in the > IR range. > > IR LED is probably the way to go. How hard is it to get to that bulb? > > Marc > > On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 4:02 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> On Jan 19, 2023, at 2:46 PM, David Gesswein via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 12:42:26PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: >>>> On 1/17/23 21:18, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Does anyone know if that light bulb is still available? I’m not sure >> what >>>>> the response of that photo sensor is and that might rule out using a >> led >>>>> replacement. The fact that the bulb is almost certainty driven below >> the >>>>> rated voltage also complicates matters. >>>> If you need JUST ONE badly enough, you can probably keep it going. >> Likely >>>> an LED could be used as a substitute. But, a roughly equivalent bulb >> with >>>> the wrong base could likely be found and hacked. >>>> >>> Originally discussing RK05 head position sensor bulb. I have replaced >> it. The >>> offical part to replace it isn't available. You can open it up and put in >>> a new bulb. I wasn't able to quickly find what bulb I used a number of >>> years ago but if someone really needs to know I can dig further. One of >> the >>> small ones with wires. It doesn't use bulb with base. LED didn't work. I >>> think sensor is IR. >> Hard to know what the sensor wants given that it isn't described in any >> DEC documents I could find. The schematics do mention that the light bulb >> runs on +5 volts, which suggests that indeed it might be below its rated >> voltage. >> >> If the sensors want IR you could try an IR LED. Or a white LED on the >> theory that it's a broadband light source... >> >> paul >> >> --===============5794394006806181054==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 18:41:44 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:41:18 +0000 Message-ID: <588250249.2420851.1674240078523@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2078970263.3440905.1674228176529@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5918754469255731676==" --===============5918754469255731676== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So ... can the GW be physically installed on a machine that doesn't have usb= capability. But have the data stream analyzed (on the fly) by a different co= mputer via it's usb capability? =20 --===============5918754469255731676==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Fri Jan 20 18:52:50 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:52:26 -0800 Message-ID: <5D20D612-456F-4D50-883F-E926357695E4@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0445602776448277168==" --===============0445602776448277168== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I=E2=80=99ve not seen is = if it allows standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a way = to image the disk. With an USB attached 3.5=E2=80=9D floppy the disk mounts = on my Mac, and I can easily pull files off the disk. Does this work with the= GreaseWeazle and a 5.25=E2=80=9D floppy drive? Zane --===============0445602776448277168==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Jan 20 18:53:49 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:53:21 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <588250249.2420851.1674240078523@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8808875346692410519==" --===============8808875346692410519== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > So ... can the GW be physically installed on a machine that doesn't have > usb capability. But have the data stream analyzed (on the fly) by a > different computer via it's usb capability? The GW isn't something that's "installed". It's an ARM-based, stand-alone device that connects to a floppy drive on one end and a USB-capable computer on the other. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============8808875346692410519==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Jan 20 18:58:11 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:57:44 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5D20D612-456F-4D50-883F-E926357695E4@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6193906976709964431==" --===============6193906976709964431== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I’m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I’ve not seen is if it > allows standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a way > to image the disk. With an USB attached 3.5” floppy the disk mounts on > my Mac, and I can easily pull files off the disk. Does this work with > the GreaseWeazle and a 5.25” floppy drive? > The GW is simply the interface between the host and a floppy drive. It's up to the software that you're using as to what capability it has. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6193906976709964431==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Jan 20 19:05:42 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 13:05:14 -0600 Message-ID: <158f5d29-1f48-96a7-e56d-d21f10156498@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <5D20D612-456F-4D50-883F-E926357695E4@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6899492020453364639==" --===============6899492020453364639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Using the Greaseweazel is a two stage process.=C2=A0 The GW itself connects=20 to the actual drive and just records the flux transitions as a series of=20 zeros and ones.=C2=A0 This is transferred to a computer (PC, MAC, Linux)=20 where the captured flux image is analyzed by a second program which=20 understands floppy formats.=C2=A0 You tell the analyzer what you are looking = at. The analyzer can then provide a binary dump of the actual data (track by=20 track) or for operating systems that it understands it can extract=20 directories and files. On 1/20/2023 12:52 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I=E2=80=99m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I=E2=80=99ve not seen i= s if it allows standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a wa= y to image the disk. With an USB attached 3.5=E2=80=9D floppy the disk mount= s on my Mac, and I can easily pull files off the disk. Does this work with t= he GreaseWeazle and a 5.25=E2=80=9D floppy drive? > > Zane > > > --===============6899492020453364639==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Jan 20 19:07:40 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 13:07:14 -0600 Message-ID: <7e11856b-c7cd-db3d-f6a1-485daa7607c4@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5154548704643434916==" --===============5154548704643434916== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/20/2023 3:53 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I would recommend 5170 (AT), to also have the 500K bps data transfer >> rate of its FDC. > > I just had a good laugh ;-) > >> Newer PCs often have unnecessary complications.  Many no longer even >> support floppies! > > Since when does the Weazle need a floppy controller? It's an > autonomous device. And you *do* need a modern PC since it is attached > via USB. > > Christian You'll see below the response you quoted, the original responder meant to say ImageDisk, not GW. -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============5154548704643434916==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Jan 20 19:17:00 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 13:16:31 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2cee93b4-2e9d-f6b5-4de-483ba5736dda@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1923280728449889123==" --===============1923280728449889123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/20/2023 3:48 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Jim Brain wrote: >> GW can do the same, but can also handle GCR encoded disks, the Amiga >> disks noted above, and it might be able to do older Apple Mac 720K disks > > All these Weazle thingies are just pulse timing samplers plus floppy > drive controllers. > The interpretation of the timing information is separately done in > software, with the hazzle of implementing some kind of software PLL. > Been there, done that with my own Linux software written for a > modified version of the MFM hard disk emulator running on my Beagle > Bone White. > The setup is even able to write such images back to disk (I have > successfully used it to create Apple 2 GCR and Amiga MFM disks). > > Christian Agreed, but what's your point?  My response was stating that the "Weazle" things and the associated SW can read formats that the IBM FDC and imageDisk can't, so they are different and GW and it's relations have more capabilities. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============1923280728449889123==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Jan 20 19:17:23 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 13:16:45 -0600 Message-ID: <8325a171-b65c-412a-b58d-774fb01b00a3@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <31b101d92cbb$1beccab0$53c66010$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6278080807993028065==" --===============6278080807993028065== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/20/2023 4:36 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Christian Corti via cctalk >> Sent: 20 January 2023 09:34 >> To: ClassicCmp >> Cc: Christian Corti >> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate >> Maryland Man >> >> >> Isn't that a bit overcomplicated? I mean, they *are* standard IBM format >> floppys that can be read with a normal PC floppy controller. >> I really wonder why the museum did not know this. Maybe even PUTR could >> have been used to copy off the files from the disks. > They can, but once you hit a read error a PC goes into re-try mode and you > run the risk of dirtying the heads and damaging the disk. > With one of these tools you read the flux transitions of the disk, so a > whole track and then sort the data out. > This reduces the risk of damaging the disk and the drive. > >> >> Christian > Dave > Thanks for the nice response.  That was what I meant to convey in my original response to this thread.  If someone gave me a bog standard IBM 360kB disk and told me court reporter data was on it that could potentially free someone, I would set up GW and image it, even though I have a perfectly capable ImageDisk setup sitting not 3 feet from me. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============6278080807993028065==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jan 20 19:19:18 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 11:18:49 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <588250249.2420851.1674240078523@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6044117155779440607==" --===============6044117155779440607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/20/23 10:41, Chris via cctalk wrote: > So ... can the GW be physically installed on a machine that doesn't have u= sb capability. But have the data stream analyzed (on the fly) by a different = computer via it's usb capability? =20 No, the host system needs a USB connection--probably at least 2.0, but I haven't verified that. (I did build one and even added a stage of output buffering). My STM32F407 solution has proper buffers and termination between the drive and MCU, and records all data on an microSD drive, which can be uploaded or read directly. Comms is via USB or UART, depending on compilation option, so it can be used with a dumb terminal or a legacy S100 system capable of serial communication. The nice thing about the 407 is that it has a much higher clock rate, meaning finer sampling and 512KB of program flash along with 192KB of SRAM, so a whole track can be held in memory. I should probably mention the floppy reader I built years ago using a ATMega162 and 128K SRAM. It could also emulate floppies. For whatever it's worth. Chuck --===============6044117155779440607==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Jan 20 19:20:21 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 13:19:55 -0600 Message-ID: <462447c8-8a58-a6d1-2e9e-15bb2a084d8d@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <158f5d29-1f48-96a7-e56d-d21f10156498@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0462303285021459918==" --===============0462303285021459918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/20/2023 1:05 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Using the Greaseweazel is a two stage process.  The GW itself connects > to the actual drive and just records the flux transitions as a series > of zeros and ones.  This is transferred to a computer (PC, MAC, Linux) > where the captured flux image is analyzed by a second program which > understands floppy formats.  You tell the analyzer what you are > looking at. > > The analyzer can then provide a binary dump of the actual data (track > by track) or for operating systems that it understands it can extract > directories and files. > > On 1/20/2023 12:52 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I’m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I’ve not seen is if it >> allows standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a >> way to image the disk.  With an USB attached 3.5” floppy the disk >> mounts on my Mac, and I can easily pull files off the disk.  Does >> this work with the GreaseWeazle and a 5.25” floppy drive? >> >> Zane >> >> >> > Not to discount Mike's response, but to Zane's original question:  At this time, No, the GW only allows imaging. *BUT*, there is nothing preventing the firmware Keir wrote from being extended to support accessing the actual floppy disk directly via the USB interface (by emulating a regular USB floppy drive set of commands). In reality, most people just do with Mike is suggesting.  Grab the image and then mount it as a virtual floppy and read the files/dirs as needed. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============0462303285021459918==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jan 20 19:31:02 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 11:30:26 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0493256933492723798==" --===============0493256933492723798== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 11:19 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I should probably mention the floppy reader I built years ago using a > ATMega162 and 128K SRAM. It could also emulate floppies. > You were ahead of your time (and everyone else's). Sellam --===============0493256933492723798==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 19:34:14 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 19:33:45 +0000 Message-ID: <558593344.3560046.1674243225783@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3288374795058990157==" --===============3288374795058990157== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So if it needs usb 2.0, that would rule out hosts prior to Pentium 3/4 iinm.= =20 --===============3288374795058990157==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 19:44:29 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] fs: 2 x Atomic Pis Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 19:44:01 +0000 Message-ID: <588530735.3579210.1674243841050@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <588530735.3579210.1674243841050.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8639452422768239411==" --===============8639452422768239411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 45$ per plus honest shipping. These are new, bought them from Zon 7/2019. Nev= er did anything with them.=20 I also have 2 power bricks, 1 new, 1 a little used (from an old Sony dvd burn= wr). Free with purchase. Both supply 3 amps at least. I suppose I could test these. I'll leave that up to tje buyer. --===============8639452422768239411==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 19:56:29 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] fs: 2x IBM PCjr mobos (NJ) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 19:55:57 +0000 Message-ID: <1395204831.3577160.1674244557731@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1395204831.3577160.1674244557731.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0610032215943204735==" --===============0610032215943204735== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These were sold to me as new, but the a.s bags they're in don't look new. Got= them from BGMicro. These wouldn't be easy to test. 50$ per plus shipping. Check or m.o. No exceptions. --===============0610032215943204735==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jan 20 20:25:44 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 12:25:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3899842550827613753==" --===============3899842550827613753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/20/23 11:30, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > You were ahead of your time (and everyone else's). The funny thing is that James and I were talking about doing some PCBs and kits for the things, then decided that it would appeal to too few people. I still have the prototype, done in wire-wrap. --Chuck --===============3899842550827613753==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Fri Jan 20 20:31:51 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 12:31:26 -0800 Message-ID: <0396D3AB-1E80-4DBC-BC05-A9715CC99DBD@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <462447c8-8a58-a6d1-2e9e-15bb2a084d8d@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1555752760552971694==" --===============1555752760552971694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 20, 2023, at 11:19 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 1/20/2023 1:05 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> Using the Greaseweazel is a two stage process. The GW itself connects to = the actual drive and just records the flux transitions as a series of zeros a= nd ones. This is transferred to a computer (PC, MAC, Linux) where the captur= ed flux image is analyzed by a second program which understands floppy format= s. You tell the analyzer what you are looking at. >>=20 >> The analyzer can then provide a binary dump of the actual data (track by t= rack) or for operating systems that it understands it can extract directories= and files. >>=20 >> On 1/20/2023 12:52 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> I=E2=80=99m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I=E2=80=99ve not seen= is if it allows standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a = way to image the disk. With an USB attached 3.5=E2=80=9D floppy the disk mou= nts on my Mac, and I can easily pull files off the disk. Does this work with= the GreaseWeazle and a 5.25=E2=80=9D floppy drive? >>>=20 >>> Zane >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 > Not to discount Mike's response, but to Zane's original question: At this = time, No, the GW only allows imaging. >=20 > *BUT*, there is nothing preventing the firmware Keir wrote from being exten= ded to support accessing the actual floppy disk directly via the USB interfac= e (by emulating a regular USB floppy drive set of commands). >=20 > In reality, most people just do with Mike is suggesting. Grab the image an= d then mount it as a virtual floppy and read the files/dirs as needed. >=20 > Jim >=20 > --=20 > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com My thanks to all that answered. I=E2=80=99ll probably pick up a GreaseWeazel= at some point. Right now I=E2=80=99m trying to judge my need. I=E2=80=99ve= only found a fraction of the 5.25=E2=80=9D floppies I should have. For that= matter, I=E2=80=99ve only found about 60% of the 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies I sho= uld have. I=E2=80=99m mystified as to where three big boxes are, and those i= nclude the bulk of my 5.25=E2=80=9D floppies. Realistically that=E2=80=99s good enough Jim, though I find the way the 3.5= =E2=80=9D floppies are working to be quite useful. I can take a look at what= =E2=80=99s on them, and in many cases, I just pull the files off. As there i= s no reason to image them. Zane --===============1555752760552971694==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 20:34:23 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 20:33:52 +0000 Message-ID: <1810345391.17212.1674246832453@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2862374689246267848==" --===============2862374689246267848== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At least 1 person is interested in a Canon AS-100 boot disk. I know my day w= ill come. Remember they came with an error or some weirdness from Canon. You couldn't u= se normal disks with it. They had to be supplied by Canon, whether 5 1/4" or = 8". =20 --===============2862374689246267848==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Jan 20 20:37:44 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 14:37:18 -0600 Message-ID: <9eea890d-d23a-d83c-b0da-92371ff5178f@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <0396D3AB-1E80-4DBC-BC05-A9715CC99DBD@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4538121472724068518==" --===============4538121472724068518== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/20/2023 2:31 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > Realistically that=E2=80=99s good enough Jim, though I find the way the 3.5= =E2=80=9D floppies are working to be quite useful. I can take a look at what= =E2=80=99s on them, and in many cases, I just pull the files off. As there i= s no reason to image them. No doubt.=C2=A0 Don't get me wrong, GW and KryoFlux and Catweazel(sp?) and=20 others serve a great purpose.=C2=A0 But, most media is not so important.=C2= =A0 I=20 have some geneology disks a family member worked on in the 1980s that I=20 need to archive.=C2=A0 But, it does not rise to the need to flux image.=C2=A0= I'll=20 just pop them into a DOS PC and grab the data.=C2=A0 If there are issues,=20 we'll cross that bridge then. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============4538121472724068518==-- From brain@jbrain.com Fri Jan 20 20:40:30 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 14:40:05 -0600 Message-ID: <7f9fe4b4-9d5d-1c48-0daa-71cf47566b89@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <1810345391.17212.1674246832453@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6257023632973846928==" --===============6257023632973846928== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/20/2023 2:33 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > At least 1 person is interested in a Canon AS-100 boot disk. I know my da= y will come. > > Remember they came with an error or some weirdness from Canon. You couldn't= use normal disks with it. They had to be supplied by Canon, whether 5 1/4" o= r 8". Likewise, Tandy Model 100 TPDD system disks are hard to make if you=20 don't already have a working TPDD system disk and can just make a copy=20 of it. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============6257023632973846928==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Fri Jan 20 20:45:37 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 12:45:09 -0800 Message-ID: <005301d92d10$172508d0$456f1a70$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1567798407627096102==" --===============1567798407627096102== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The funny thing is that James and I were talking about doing some PCBs > and kits for the things, then decided that it would appeal to too few > people. I still have the prototype, done in wire-wrap. Chuck, It may be a good time to dust off the old design and bring it out! ;) -Ali --===============1567798407627096102==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Jan 20 20:58:55 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:58:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <005301d92d10$172508d0$456f1a70$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4736932028874107757==" --===============4736932028874107757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/20/23 15:45, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> The funny thing is that James and I were talking about doing some PCBs >> and kits for the things, then decided that it would appeal to too few >> people. I still have the prototype, done in wire-wrap. > > Chuck, > > It may be a good time to dust off the old design and bring it out! ;) > Why? There are already a number of functional (and in most cases cheap) floppy emulators. It is unlikely even the boards could be made to match the price and in any case just how many of us do you really think are left? :-) bill --===============4736932028874107757==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 21:14:12 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] scsi Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 21:13:45 +0000 Message-ID: <1225900287.18633.1674249225236@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1225900287.18633.1674249225236.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1937510723769930610==" --===============1937510723769930610== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How do you know if a termimation is suitable? Is connection all you have to w= orry about? I have an HP Ultra 320 drive, a 320/m compliant adapter (id jumpe= red to 2. Does a this need to be 0 for a single drive setup?), the cable with= an ultra 320m terminator (" LVD + SE ACT NEG + HVD ISO " printed on it). Eve= rything seems legit. I want to plug this into 2 different serverboards, an In= tel SCB2, dual PIII, dual ultra 160/lvd channels, and an IBM xseries 350/Netf= inity 6000 (8682 serverboard), quad PIII xeon slot 2 cpu's, similar scsi capa= bility. Whaddaya think? --===============1937510723769930610==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Fri Jan 20 21:19:23 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:57:20 -0500 Message-ID: <217c06f0-1244-55e3-1407-0a8e002068fe@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4364322223132743645==" --===============4364322223132743645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-20 15:25, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/20/23 11:30, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > >> >> You were ahead of your time (and everyone else's). > > The funny thing is that James and I were talking about doing some PCBs > and kits for the things, then decided that it would appeal to too few > people. I still have the prototype, done in wire-wrap. Probably it would be worth it, to make a board like you did with the pertec interface? --===============4364322223132743645==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Fri Jan 20 21:25:19 2023 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 13:13:57 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4470765952978976407==" --===============4470765952978976407== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unfortunately I see that Xerox Memorywriter (630, 640, 645) is not on this li= st. :( Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Jan 19, 2023, at 7:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFhttp://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html > is a list of the formats that I had managed to do on PC by Y2K. >=20 > Note that that was reading, deciphering, and displaying a DIRectory, and th= en copying selected FILES. Not a raw dump. >=20 > File content, such as loading Wordstar files into WordPervert, is a complet= ely separate set of issues. >=20 >=20 --===============4470765952978976407==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Fri Jan 20 21:27:27 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:05:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580139423FD59471687106AEDC59=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6314152067093698494==" --===============6314152067093698494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-20 15:58, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/20/23 15:45, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>> The funny thing is that James and I were talking about doing some PCBs >>> and kits for the things, then decided that it would appeal to too few >>> people.  I still have the prototype, done in wire-wrap. >> >> Chuck, >> >> It may be a good time to dust off the old design and bring it out! ;) >> > > Why?  There are already a number of functional (and in > most cases cheap) floppy emulators.  It is unlikely > even the boards could be made to match the price and > in any case just how many of us do you really think are > left?  :-) I was looking at Chuck's pertec interface this morning, and I really like what he did. If he can pull of the same with the stm32f407 for floppies, I'm in. Boards with the stm32 are cheap, and actually available. And all in source, free compilers etc. (and MFM disks, ESDI disks, and, and ;-) ) --===============6314152067093698494==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Jan 20 21:39:42 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 22:39:06 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5D20D612-456F-4D50-883F-E926357695E4@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7248019475841972675==" --===============7248019475841972675== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 at 19:52, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > I=E2=80=99m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I=E2=80=99ve not seen i= s if it allows standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a wa= y to image the disk. With an USB attached 3.5=E2=80=9D floppy the disk mount= s on my Mac, and I can easily pull files off the disk. Does this work with t= he GreaseWeazle and a 5.25=E2=80=9D floppy drive? Just FWIW, this was a FAQ and so someone has made a gizmo. It's not cheap but it works, apparently. https://shop.deviceside.com/prod/FC5025 It's read-only but it handles, in theory, DS/DD 40 track, DS/DD 80 track, and DS/HD 80 track. It attaches to a PC floppy drive, so if a PC floppy controller can't read the format without hardware assistance, this won't either. An alternative method is described here: https://blog.adafruit.com/2021/12/08/how-to-build-a-working-external-5-25-usb= -floppy-drive-vintagecomputing-ibmpc/ --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7248019475841972675==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 22:31:33 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 14:31:06 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2820591646958430769==" --===============2820591646958430769== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > An alternative method is described here: > > https://blog.adafruit.com/2021/12/08/how-to-build-a-working-external-5-25-u= sb-floppy-drive-vintagecomputing-ibmpc/ That is using an NEC UF0001 drive. Good luck finding one! But, the UF0002 is readily available. Anybody have any idea whether it=20 would work? probably not. Presumably, NEC's FIRST external USB drive used a general purpose USB=20 floppy controller, but probably by the second one, they made it very=20 specific to 1.4M If it supports "mode 3", then it could probably be made to work for NEC's=20 8" format, and the NEC 1.2M 5.25" format. --===============2820591646958430769==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 22:55:05 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 14:54:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5362178278092563562==" --===============5362178278092563562== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > It's not cheap but it works, apparently. > https://shop.deviceside.com/prod/FC5025 > > It's read-only but it handles, in theory, DS/DD 40 track, DS/DD 80 > track, and DS/HD 80 track. > > It attaches to a PC floppy drive, so if a PC floppy controller can't > read the format without hardware assistance, this won't either. So, there is a short (14 formats), but impressive, list of formats that it can image, Their file access is referred to as "Browse" and a VERY short (6 formats), but also impressive, list of formats that it can "browse" (copy files). The format list is as of March 2013 :-( IFF they were still actively supporting it, (not likely if they haven't added any formats in a decade) it would be trivial for them to add hundreds of other CP/M formats, Apple CP/M, Apple Pascal/P-system, etc. --===============5362178278092563562==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 23:01:31 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:00:58 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8062292788262950790==" --===============8062292788262950790== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Presumably, NEC's FIRST external USB drive used a general purpose USB flopp= y=20 > controller, but probably by the second one, they made it very specific to=20 > 1.4M Sorry. Thinking about it, It is probably NOT making the controller more specific to some formats; (although updated drivers probably do not support anything but 1.4M) Instead, it is probably that they made an integrated drive and controller,=20 which unfortunately means that we can't just separate the two parts and=20 substitute a 5.25" drive. --===============8062292788262950790==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jan 20 23:04:46 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:04:18 -0800 Message-ID: <9cefd6f6-799c-e86f-68bf-8b7cddd530e1@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1461588525557375703==" --===============1461588525557375703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/20/23 14:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> An alternative method is described here: >> >> https://blog.adafruit.com/2021/12/08/how-to-build-a-working-external-5-25-= usb-floppy-drive-vintagecomputing-ibmpc/ > There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller. Al has the datasheet archived on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97CFD= C2-01.pdf What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash programming... I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this creature. Of course, there's the possibility that they're unobtainium... --Chuck --===============1461588525557375703==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 23:15:11 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:14:43 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9cefd6f6-799c-e86f-68bf-8b7cddd530e1@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3508968031797405884==" --===============3508968031797405884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller. Al has the > datasheet archived on bitsavers: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C= FDC2-01.pdf also, I found it here; https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf > What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash > programming... > I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this > creature. Of course, there's the possibility that they're unobtainium... --===============3508968031797405884==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jan 20 23:19:13 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:18:39 -0800 Message-ID: <219c5b43-25fb-2bf0-891c-ffc74d5dc2d1@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4847366541801554087==" --===============4847366541801554087== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's also a German fellow who has done a read-only MFM USB controller using, of all things, an AVR with just enough memory to hold a single sector. Apparently interfaces with the Windows USB floppy driver (I think). Probably slower than tar in Siberia, however. And it doesn't write. He does his decoding on the fly. --Chuck --===============4847366541801554087==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Jan 20 23:31:33 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:31:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9043599945705827000==" --===============9043599945705827000== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/20/23 16:05, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-01-20 15:58, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/20/23 15:45, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>>> The funny thing is that James and I were talking about doing some PCBs >>>> and kits for the things, then decided that it would appeal to too few >>>> people.  I still have the prototype, done in wire-wrap. >>> >>> Chuck, >>> >>> It may be a good time to dust off the old design and bring it out! ;) >>> >> >> Why?  There are already a number of functional (and in >> most cases cheap) floppy emulators.  It is unlikely >> even the boards could be made to match the price and >> in any case just how many of us do you really think are >> left?  :-) > > I was looking at Chuck's pertec interface this morning, and I really > like what he did. If he can pull of the same with the stm32f407 for > floppies, I'm in. Boards with the stm32 are cheap, and actually > available. And all in source, free compilers etc. > > (and MFM disks, ESDI disks, and, and ;-) ) I would like something for MFM disks but that tends to be much more expensive than a $20 GOTEK. I have a couple of Dave Gesswein's boards but haven't got around to building them yet. I doubt it could be done cheaper and I don't think The Blue Pill has the horsepower to do it. Dave uses the Beagle Bone. bill --===============9043599945705827000==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Fri Jan 20 23:55:24 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:54:46 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580657447689FB11CE3CAD2EDC59=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5765225046701941996==" --===============5765225046701941996== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 4:31 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/20/23 16:05, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > On 2023-01-20 15:58, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> On 1/20/23 15:45, Ali via cctalk wrote: > >>>> The funny thing is that James and I were talking about doing some PCBs > >>>> and kits for the things, then decided that it would appeal to too few > >>>> people. I still have the prototype, done in wire-wrap. > >>> > >>> Chuck, > >>> > >>> It may be a good time to dust off the old design and bring it out! ;) > >>> > >> > >> Why? There are already a number of functional (and in > >> most cases cheap) floppy emulators. It is unlikely > >> even the boards could be made to match the price and > >> in any case just how many of us do you really think are > >> left? :-) > > > > I was looking at Chuck's pertec interface this morning, and I really > > like what he did. If he can pull of the same with the stm32f407 for > > floppies, I'm in. Boards with the stm32 are cheap, and actually > > available. And all in source, free compilers etc. > > > > (and MFM disks, ESDI disks, and, and ;-) ) > > I would like something for MFM disks but that tends to be much more > expensive than a $20 GOTEK. I have a couple of Dave Gesswein's boards > but haven't got around to building them yet. I doubt it could be done > cheaper and I don't think The Blue Pill has the horsepower to do it. > Dave uses the Beagle Bone. > I bought mine assembled and tested. And I've had no problems with them at all, modulo needing to work with David on a really weird disk I found in the wild to get his software updated to cope that the weird pathology it presented... His devices are the best and well worth the money. Warner --===============5765225046701941996==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jan 21 00:00:39 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:59:54 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580657447689FB11CE3CAD2EDC59=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2129289855269350233==" --===============2129289855269350233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/20/23 15:31, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I would like something for MFM disks but that tends to be much more > expensive than a $20 GOTEK.  I have a couple of Dave Gesswein's boards > but haven't got around to building them yet.  I doubt it could be done > cheaper and I don't think The Blue Pill has the horsepower to do it. > Dave uses the Beagle Bone. The Gotek is little more than an STM32F107 (i.e. F1 MCU) with some driver/level shifting logic and an interface. The big advantage is the 64KB SRAM. A "black pill" using the STM32F411 or STM32F405 is far more powerful and still in the $5 range if ordered through AliExpress. Has a better internal design for peripherals. The Gotek really isn't much more powerful than a blue pill (uses an STM32F103, but only 20KB SRAM). FWIW, --Chuck --===============2129289855269350233==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 00:25:09 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: scsi Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 19:24:30 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1225900287.18633.1674249225236@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8759731433128812099==" --===============8759731433128812099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would read up to confirm the correct drive number so that variable is confirmed. Bill On Fri, Jan 20, 2023, 4:13 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > How do you know if a termimation is suitable? Is connection all you have > to worry about? I have an HP Ultra 320 drive, a 320/m compliant adapter (id > jumpered to 2. Does a this need to be 0 for a single drive setup?), the > cable with an ultra 320m terminator (" LVD + SE ACT NEG + HVD ISO " printed > on it). Everything seems legit. I want to plug this into 2 different > serverboards, an Intel SCB2, dual PIII, dual ultra 160/lvd channels, and an > IBM xseries 350/Netfinity 6000 (8682 serverboard), quad PIII xeon slot 2 > cpu's, similar scsi capability. > > Whaddaya think? > --===============8759731433128812099==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sat Jan 21 00:25:56 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:25:31 -0600 Message-ID: <2956bbfc-144d-2fc7-4c05-a55e4b80e97b@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <9cefd6f6-799c-e86f-68bf-8b7cddd530e1@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0123418067265197780==" --===============0123418067265197780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/20/2023 5:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/20/23 14:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> An alternative method is described here: >>> >>> https://blog.adafruit.com/2021/12/08/how-to-build-a-working-external-5-25= -usb-floppy-drive-vintagecomputing-ibmpc/ > There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller. Al has the > datasheet archived on bitsavers: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C= FDC2-01.pdf > > What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash > programming... > > I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this > creature. Of course, there's the possibility that they're unobtainium... > > --Chuck > > I'm game to try.=C2=A0 I see them nominally listed for sale, so I asked for a= =20 quote for 10.=C2=A0 We'll see if they are really available or not. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============0123418067265197780==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 00:50:40 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: scsi Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 00:50:13 +0000 Message-ID: <1055278757.93475.1674262213854@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5290758702655748325==" --===============5290758702655748325== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Ok that. But I was told somewhere by someone that not all terminators are cre= ated equal. I'd have to go look up the discussion. On Friday, January 20, 2023, 07:24:50 PM EST, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 I would read up to confirm the correct drive number so that variable is confirmed. Bill On Fri, Jan 20, 2023, 4:13 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > How do you know if a termimation is suitable? Is connection all you have > to worry about? I have an HP Ultra 320 drive, a 320/m compliant adapter (id > jumpered to 2. Does a this need to be 0 for a single drive setup?), the > cable with an ultra 320m terminator (" LVD + SE ACT NEG + HVD ISO " printed > on it). Everything seems legit. I want to plug this into 2 different > serverboards, an Intel SCB2, dual PIII, dual ultra 160/lvd channels, and an > IBM xseries 350/Netfinity 6000 (8682 serverboard), quad PIII xeon slot 2 > cpu's, similar scsi capability. > > Whaddaya think? > =20 --===============5290758702655748325==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 21 01:32:25 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:31:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <005301d92d10$172508d0$456f1a70$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6860659836854596421==" --===============6860659836854596421== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-20 1:45 p.m., Ali via cctalk wrote: >> The funny thing is that James and I were talking about doing some PCBs >> and kits for the things, then decided that it would appeal to too few >> people. I still have the prototype, done in wire-wrap. > > Chuck, > > It may be a good time to dust off the old design and bring it out! ;) > > -Ali > The greased pig. :) Ben. --===============6860659836854596421==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 02:15:16 2023 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: scsi Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 22:14:47 -0400 Message-ID: <79a3db4e-b8a6-96d9-c11c-6aecff2552b8@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1055278757.93475.1674262213854@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1651194367916473471==" --===============1651194367916473471== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indeed not not all SCSI terminators are created equal, there where three=20 types of signalling used Single Ended (SE) High Voltage Differential=20 (HVD)=C2=A0 and Low Voltage Differential (LVD). LVD was created to squeeze a = bit more speed out of parallel SCSI. Any complaint LVD device needs to=20 be able to operate in SE mode as well as LVD and if they detect a SE=20 device on the bus all devices on the bus switch to SE mode, which is why=20 your terminator is marked LVD + SE.=C2=A0 The other thing that LVD devices=20 are supposed to do is if they detect a HVD device on the bus the LVD=20 device isolates from the bus so that would be the "+ HVD ISO".=C2=A0 SE=20 devices on the bus can be detected because one signal line is pulled to=20 ground by SE devices but not LVD, I don't recall which pin it is as=20 parallel SCSI is in what now seems the distant past. If your drive has=20 built in terminators and the terminator on you cable is not crimped on,=20 you could enable the termination on the drive and plug the drive at the=20 end of the cable in place of the terminator. One thing to watch out for on your disk drive is many LVD drives have a=20 jumper to force SE mode you will want to remove that, although if force=20 to SE mode it should still work but will be slower, what does not work=20 is introducing a SE device into a bus that is already operating in LVD=20 mode, all the devices suddenly switching to SE mode generally causes the=20 using system to fall over. You SCSI adapter card should always be set to address 7 as that is the=20 highest priority address and what you set the address on your drive to=20 will depend on.=C2=A0 I have seen SCSI adapter that start scanning the bus at= =20 0 and stop as soon as they do not get a response in which case you would=20 want your drive to be 0, most well designed adapter will scan all=20 addresses regardless, but if you plan to boot off the SCSI disk they may=20 have a limitation on the address the card will boot from.=C2=A0 The most=20 important thing is that all device on the bus, including the adapter=20 have a unique address. Paul. On 2023-01-20 20:50, Chris via cctalk wrote: > =20 > Ok that. But I was told somewhere by someone that not all terminators are c= reated equal. I'd have to go look up the discussion. > > On Friday, January 20, 2023, 07:24:50 PM EST, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: > =20 > I would read up to confirm the correct drive number so that variable is > confirmed. > Bill > > On Fri, Jan 20, 2023, 4:13 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > >> How do you know if a termimation is suitable? Is connection all you have >> to worry about? I have an HP Ultra 320 drive, a 320/m compliant adapter (id >> jumpered to 2. Does a this need to be 0 for a single drive setup?), the >> cable with an ultra 320m terminator (" LVD + SE ACT NEG + HVD ISO " printed >> on it). Everything seems legit. I want to plug this into 2 different >> serverboards, an Intel SCB2, dual PIII, dual ultra 160/lvd channels, and an >> IBM xseries 350/Netfinity 6000 (8682 serverboard), quad PIII xeon slot 2 >> cpu's, similar scsi capability. >> >> Whaddaya think? >> > =20 --===============1651194367916473471==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 03:06:11 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 19:05:33 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3795178328105281241==" --===============3795178328105281241== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is what's been going on in the Apple ][ world for the past few years: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/27/reconstructing-data-from-a-corrupt-apple-flop= py-disk/ https://wiki.reactivemicro.com/Applesauce It's really neat. One can even repair damaged disks by removing or inserting bits (i.e. flux transitions) as necessary. Sellam On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 5:32 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-01-20 1:45 p.m., Ali via cctalk wrote: > >> The funny thing is that James and I were talking about doing some PCBs > >> and kits for the things, then decided that it would appeal to too few > >> people. I still have the prototype, done in wire-wrap. > > > > Chuck, > > > > It may be a good time to dust off the old design and bring it out! ;) > > > > -Ali > > > The greased pig. :) > Ben. > > --===============3795178328105281241==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sat Jan 21 03:27:37 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 21:27:08 -0600 Message-ID: <371dc10d-08e0-250e-edf1-f3ca5449c880@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2305667882808937277==" --===============2305667882808937277== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/20/2023 12:31 AM, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 10:18 PM Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: > >> cheaper than KryoFLux (I believe it was designed as a rebuttal for the >> high priced and "walled garden" nature of KryoFlux) or other related >> projects like DiscFerret and/or discontinued solutions like CatWeazel >> (which was a plug in card and harder to support on newer machines) >> > I figured it just was a logical continuation .... Keir Fraser also wrote > FlashFloppy (the alternative firmware for the Gotek) and the associated > Disk Utilities software which also is now used in GW. Obviously FOSS is > his focus (Xen etc). > > I'm trying now to forget how much I spent on my Kryoflux :-) > As someone who writes FLOSS, it's rarely just to redo something already=20 done well.=C2=A0 It's either that bugs or missing features in the original=20 solution annoy me, the cost is too high for the use case, or the=20 designers of the closed source item lord it over the consumers.=C2=A0 I don't= =20 remember all the details, but I seem to remember all 3 of those were in=20 play when GW came out. Regardless, Keir is an impressive person for making the various projects=20 (FLashFloppy and GW).=C2=A0 I think nowadays, everyone immediately replaces=20 Gotek std firmware with FF on the devices as soon as they hit the mailbox. --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============2305667882808937277==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Sat Jan 21 03:56:24 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 19:55:50 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2956bbfc-144d-2fc7-4c05-a55e4b80e97b@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2519280494407728696==" --===============2519280494407728696== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the AppleSauce yet. Yes, it requires a Mac. Yes, they're currently out of stock, but Yes, it's absolutely the best solution out there for disk imaging. https://applesaucefdc.com/ I've used it for both hard & soft-sectored 5.25" disks and 3.5" disks. I've also imaged a few 8" disks using it, and I know more than one person has used it to image RX02 disks. It'll image just about anything, including PC98 disks. GCR, FM, MFM, it'll do it all. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============2519280494407728696==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jan 21 04:15:37 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 20:15:07 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5949901715748744717==" --===============5949901715748744717== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote: > I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the AppleSauce yet. Yes, it requires a = > Mac. Yes, they're currently out of stock, but Yes, it's absolutely the bes= t=20 > solution out there for disk imaging. https://applesaucefdc.com/ > > I've used it for both hard & soft-sectored 5.25" disks and 3.5" disks. I've= =20 > also imaged a few 8" disks using it, and I know more than one person has us= ed=20 > it to image RX02 disks. > > It'll image just about anything, including PC98 disks. GCR, FM, MFM, it'll= =20 > do it all. The link that Sellam sent https://hackaday.com/2021/01/27/reconstructing-data-from-a-corrupt-apple-flop= py-disk/ was about using Apple Sauce --===============5949901715748744717==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jan 21 04:33:08 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 20:32:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2956bbfc-144d-2fc7-4c05-a55e4b80e97b@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7571780912175842276==" --===============7571780912175842276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/20/23 16:25, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I'm game to try.  I see them nominally listed for sale, so I asked for a > quote for 10.  We'll see if they are really available or not. I've also seen them being offered on AliExpress... --CHuck --===============7571780912175842276==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Sat Jan 21 04:45:12 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 04:44:38 +0000 Message-ID: <225803163.83403.1674276278491@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5026661297302927119==" --===============5026661297302927119== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I came into this convo late isthmus for 5.25 usb? I found only 3.1/2 disk...h= elp,? I need 5.25 USB disk drive thanks ed sharpe=C2=A0 Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 9:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:On 1/20/23 16:25, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I'm game to try. I see them nominally listed for sale, so I asked for a> qu= ote for 10. We'll see if they are really available or not. I've also seen them being offered on AliExpress... --CHuck =20 --===============5026661297302927119==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jan 21 05:28:20 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 21:27:51 -0800 Message-ID: <5bb33d24-8a16-a983-d816-4acf3930a6cd@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5512398744049688965==" --===============5512398744049688965== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After doing a little web browsing, it seems that Gotek has adapted the Artery AT32F435 MCU on their newer units. This is a huge improvement over the STM32F107 used on these originally. 288MHz, lots of flash 384KB SRAM. Looks to be a souped-up crossbreed of the STM32F4 and F7 MCUs. I'll have to check pinouts to see how the Artery MCUs match the STM varieties, but I suspect they'll be pretty close, as Artery also makes clones of standard STM32 chips (e.g. AT32F407 vs. STM32F407). I'll be surprised if I couldn't use my STLINK programmer on one. This isn't unusual for the Chinese; there are several clone makers of the STM32 series. I've run into a few that are phony-branded with the ST logo. But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to being able to do more than simply emulate a floppy. Definitely everything including the kitchen sink type of MCU. --Chuck --===============5512398744049688965==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sat Jan 21 06:10:06 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 00:09:40 -0600 Message-ID: <68516ce7-5c80-00bc-4b9d-04bcd4cd9081@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4055900045441674111==" --===============4055900045441674111== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/20/2023 10:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/20/23 16:25, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm game to try.  I see them nominally listed for sale, so I asked for a >> quote for 10.  We'll see if they are really available or not. > I've also seen them being offered on AliExpress... I ordered 10 from there (utsource has been misleading on their parts qtys lately).  We'll see if they show up and work. I probably will need help with a design, if anyone's interested in assisting. > > --CHuck > > -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============4055900045441674111==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 06:11:44 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 01:11:05 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5bb33d24-8a16-a983-d816-4acf3930a6cd@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3403017578745650352==" --===============3403017578745650352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it uses an AT32F415. m On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 12:28 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > After doing a little web browsing, it seems that Gotek has adapted the > Artery AT32F435 MCU on their newer units. > > This is a huge improvement over the STM32F107 used on these originally. > 288MHz, lots of flash 384KB SRAM. Looks to be a souped-up crossbreed of > the STM32F4 and F7 MCUs. > > I'll have to check pinouts to see how the Artery MCUs match the STM > varieties, but I suspect they'll be pretty close, as Artery also makes > clones of standard STM32 chips (e.g. AT32F407 vs. STM32F407). I'll be > surprised if I couldn't use my STLINK programmer on one. > > This isn't unusual for the Chinese; there are several clone makers of > the STM32 series. I've run into a few that are phony-branded with the > ST logo. > > But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to being able to do more than > simply emulate a floppy. Definitely everything including the kitchen > sink type of MCU. > > > --Chuck > --===============3403017578745650352==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jan 21 08:27:47 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 09:27:17 +0100 Message-ID: <42d33f4-79f4-5fa1-2ff2-e35942beb1a1@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <588250249.2420851.1674240078523@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5430028318158796693==" --===============5430028318158796693== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com wrote: > So ... can the GW be physically installed on a machine that doesn't have > usb capability. But have the data stream analyzed (on the fly) by a > different computer via it's usb capability? Ehm, did you even read the documentation or looked at the picture of a GW? Quick answer: everything is controlled and streamed over the one and only available host port, and in case of the GW, it is USB. Christian --===============5430028318158796693==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jan 21 08:30:16 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 09:29:45 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <158f5d29-1f48-96a7-e56d-d21f10156498@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0486866539931724418==" --===============0486866539931724418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Mike Katz wrote: > Using the Greaseweazel is a two stage process.=C2=A0 The GW itself connects= to the=20 > actual drive and just records the flux transitions as a series of zeros and= =20 > ones.=C2=A0 This is transferred to a computer (PC, MAC, Linux) where the ca= ptured Even that is not fully correct. It does not record the transistions but=20 instead the *time between* the transitions ;-) Christian --===============0486866539931724418==-- From andreww591@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 09:20:52 2023 From: Andrew Warkentin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Contact information for Scott Lurndal? (or V-Series MCP/VS documentation) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 02:20:25 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2544640304987543288==" --===============2544640304987543288== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody have any contact information for Scott Lurndal? I'm trying to get his V-Series emulator working (I downloaded it quite a while ago), but it doesn't include any documentation and his wiki is no longer available (and a lot of pages weren't archived). I can run it and get to the coldstart screen but I'm not quite sure what to do from there. Bitsavers doesn't have much documentation for Burroughs medium systems. --===============2544640304987543288==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Sat Jan 21 12:19:58 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: scsi Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:58:32 +0000 Message-ID: <01SMYUMXG7308X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <79a3db4e-b8a6-96d9-c11c-6aecff2552b8@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8302500051855675300==" --===============8302500051855675300== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > Indeed not not all SCSI terminators are created equal, there where three=20 > types of signalling used Single Ended (SE) High Voltage Differential=20 > (HVD)=C2=A0 and Low Voltage Differential (LVD). LVD was created to squeeze = a=20 > bit more speed out of parallel SCSI. > That's not exactly correct. The reason for differential signalling was to be able to use longer cables for a given speed. As speeds increased, the useable length of an SE SCSI cable became prohibitively short and LVD was devised to overcome this in a way that was relatively compatible with SE. Also, just like what is now known as World War I was originally the Great War, what we now known as HVD was originally known as just "differential SCSI". Older equipment which is labelled "differential" is likely to be what we now call HVD and connecting it to older SE only equipment may not work out we= ll. Regards, Peter Coghlan. --===============8302500051855675300==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sat Jan 21 12:45:47 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 07:45:18 -0500 Message-ID: <49013f69-b9fa-8c10-8a67-1eb596e3d40e@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7844321634658101059==" --===============7844321634658101059== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-20 18:14, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2=C2=A0 floppy usb controller.=C2=A0=C2=A0= Al has the >> datasheet archived on bitsavers: >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97= CFDC2-01.pdf >=20 > also, I found it here; > https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf >=20 >> What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash >> programming... >> I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this >> creature.=C2=A0 Of course, there's the possibility that they're unobtainiu= m... >=20 The older(?) USB97CFDC is still available ... --===============7844321634658101059==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Jan 21 14:45:10 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 09:44:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <371dc10d-08e0-250e-edf1-f3ca5449c880@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4442831982091987662==" --===============4442831982091987662== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/20/23 22:27, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > > Regardless, Keir is an impressive person for making the various projects > (FLashFloppy and GW).  I think nowadays, everyone immediately replaces > Gotek std firmware with FF on the devices as soon as they hit the mailbox. > My first got the hXc2001 firmware, which seems to work really well. Later today I plan to try FlashFloppy. My goal is to eventually replace all of my mechanical floppies with solid state ones. And I have a number of computers that use floppies!! bill --===============4442831982091987662==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Sat Jan 21 14:59:58 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 06:59:33 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7524881221647136462==" --===============7524881221647136462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the AppleSauce yet. Yes, it requires a= =20 >> Mac. Yes, they're currently out of stock, but Yes, it's absolutely the=20 >> best solution out there for disk imaging. https://applesaucefdc.com/ >>=20 >> I've used it for both hard & soft-sectored 5.25" disks and 3.5" disks. I'v= e=20 >> also imaged a few 8" disks using it, and I know more than one person has=20 >> used it to image RX02 disks. >>=20 >> It'll image just about anything, including PC98 disks. GCR, FM, MFM, it'l= l=20 >> do it all. > > The link that Sellam sent > https://hackaday.com/2021/01/27/reconstructing-data-from-a-corrupt-apple-fl= oppy-disk/ > was about using Apple Sauce I think I replied before he posted that, or I didn't see it. For me the AppleSauce provides so much capability that it was worth the=20 cost of buying a Mac Mini in order to use it. That was before I knew I=20 could use the 2011 Macbook Pro I already had, but I still feel it was=20 money well spent. It's a one-man outfit and the devloper is very responive to user bug=20 reports and feature requests. A recent feature is the ability to use a=20 web cam to photograph the media as part of the imaging process. If anyone has questions, the AppleSauce Discord can be found here:=20 https://discord.gg/YrQKdwNhdR Here's a list of the formats that the AS supports /so far/: https://applesaucefdc.com/what-is-applesauce/ g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============7524881221647136462==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Jan 21 15:26:37 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 10:26:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0446100989809179434==" --===============0446100989809179434== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/21/23 01:11, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it uses an AT32F415. > The first one I bought many years ago has an STM32F105. At the time there was no third party firmware and it turned out to be pretty useless on anything other than a PC. With the current hXc2001 firmware it looks to be usable for any of the disks I may want to replace. I just got two new ones and they have AT32F415 chips. My understanding is that the two are functionally identical. We shall see as my fun progresses. An interesting note. I have a device from DBIT that lets you hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies. I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk. bill --===============0446100989809179434==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Sat Jan 21 15:34:18 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 07:33:51 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558042FD94C570BDB46F24F7EDCA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8260524041497983308==" --===============8260524041497983308== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > An interesting note. I have a device from DBIT that lets you > hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies. > I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could > hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk. > I use the DBIT adapter with my AppleSauce and it works pretty well. You=20 can also get one of these: https://www.tindie.com/products/siliconinsider/8-floppy-disk-interface-50-pin= -to-34-pin-adapter/ g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============8260524041497983308==-- From ethan@757.org Sat Jan 21 16:24:21 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:23:55 -0500 Message-ID: <8e83de16-8846-903b-9067-7728f5f0b6de@757.org> In-Reply-To: <556653542.3481839.1674231597078@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0295466032055503495==" --===============0295466032055503495== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Question is are these versions of Irix suitable. Or couldnI do better. > And on account of SGIs licensing scheme, which attaches a specific os > version to a maxhine (or vice versa), does that entitle me to obtain and > install those specific versions. Put anotjer way if I obtained images > from somewhere, installed the correct versions of Irix, would thoae > machines then be legit? Or am I supposed to pay through the nose for a > subscription or whatever? Depends on what software you want to run and if it needs the last version of IRIX. I know there are people that have ported Yum (I think) to IRIX and have been producing modern compiles of software but not sure how beefy the machine needs to be. You can find tons of IRIX CDs right here: https://archive.org/search?query=irix&page=3 Notice that is page 2 and it's so full of IRIX software and CDs it's crazy. Hats off to the archive on this one. - Ethan --===============0295466032055503495==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 16:26:16 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 08:25:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2546935235208955091==" --===============2546935235208955091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 6:59 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > > If anyone has questions, the AppleSauce Discord can be found here: > https://discord.gg/YrQKdwNhdR > > Here's a list of the formats that the AS supports /so far/: > https://applesaucefdc.com/what-is-applesauce/ > And if anyone wants to learn more, John Morris (the inventor) has given a series of talks about the Applesauce at Kansasfest (yearly Apple ] [ nerd gathering): 2017 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RMrOiYCEuxc 2018 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QbD6Q9FwHV0 2020 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ORbKpmlp4lg Sellam --===============2546935235208955091==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sat Jan 21 16:31:19 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:08:58 -0500 Message-ID: <4362ed95-9d8c-88b7-392d-3314f7fae6e6@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5391311409882281877==" --===============5391311409882281877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-21 10:33, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> An interesting note.=C2=A0 I have a device from DBIT that lets you >> hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies. >> I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could >> hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk. >> >=20 > I use the DBIT adapter with my AppleSauce and it works pretty well.=C2=A0 Y= ou=20 > can also get one of these: > https://www.tindie.com/products/siliconinsider/8-floppy-disk-interface-50-p= in-to-34-pin-adapter/ The tindie ones don't seem to have the tg43 signal? They look just like=20 some passive connectors ... --===============5391311409882281877==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 16:42:10 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 16:41:44 +0000 Message-ID: <184722330.201436.1674319304047@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580480EF7B45A9AA3E4C57AEDCA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5339504437415964607==" --===============5339504437415964607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So converting a 1.44MB gotek to 720kb isn't possible? Seeing you habe to rep= lace the or some part of the stock firmware to use one with difderemt compute= rs would suggest it is a possibility. On Saturday, January 21, 2023, 09:44:48 AM EST, Bill Gunshannon via ccta= lk wrote: =20 =20 On 1/20/23 22:27, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Regardless, Keir is an impressive person for making the various projects=20 > (FLashFloppy and GW).=C2=A0 I think nowadays, everyone immediately replaces= =20 > Gotek std firmware with FF on the devices as soon as they hit the mailbox. >=20 My first got the hXc2001 firmware, which seems to work really well. Later today I plan to try FlashFloppy.=C2=A0 My goal is to eventually replace all of my mechanical floppies with solid state ones. And I have a number of computers that use floppies!! bill =20 --===============5339504437415964607==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 17:22:12 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:21:43 +0000 Message-ID: <229424328.221147.1674321703466@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <229424328.221147.1674321703466.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5045582544200249230==" --===============5045582544200249230== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an xt mobo and some portion is populated w/NEC 4116 or 4164 chips (but= 4116s were specific to the 5150, no? It's not in front of me). There are a b= unch on the board, not sure if it's all the ram. Was this typical (I'm sure t= hat wasn't the case). Is this an example of an early 5160? Why did they goldn= plate the covers?=20 --===============5045582544200249230==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jan 21 17:35:48 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 09:35:15 -0800 Message-ID: <89e51dea-0dac-19a1-cb5c-702a368e987e@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1439216219990584944==" --===============1439216219990584944== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/20/23 22:11, Mike Stein wrote: > FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it uses an AT32F415. Aw shucks, that's not inspiring at all. F4 core, but only 32KB of SRAM. Probably is cheaper than the usual STM32F107. --Chuck --===============1439216219990584944==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jan 21 17:42:52 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 09:42:23 -0800 Message-ID: <46127130-c76e-5b66-7963-632f0cb551b2@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558042FD94C570BDB46F24F7EDCA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5757248117992595972==" --===============5757248117992595972== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/21/23 07:26, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > An interesting note.  I have a device from DBIT that lets you > hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies. > I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could > hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk. The Micro Solutions adapter that I have from ca. 1989 is a purely passive PCB--the TG43 signal is generated on the Compaticaard. A Gotek would be blissfully ignorant of this signal, as will many 8" drives. After all, an 8" drive with any intelligence knows that it's stepped 43 tracks from home. It's just the very early 8" drives that use this signal. --Chuck --===============5757248117992595972==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jan 21 17:45:47 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 09:45:19 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <229424328.221147.1674321703466@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5794928266525492528==" --===============5794928266525492528== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/21/23 09:21, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I have an xt mobo and some portion is populated w/NEC 4116 or 4164 chips (b= ut 4116s were specific to the 5150, no? It's not in front of me). There are a= bunch on the board, not sure if it's all the ram. Was this typical (I'm sure= that wasn't the case). Is this an example of an early 5160? Why did they gol= dnplate the covers?=20 Common practice back in the day, when the price of gold plating wasn't a cost issue, compared to the cost of the chip itself. That being said, I think that I have some NEC uPD416 (4116 equivalent) where the lids are not gold-plated. But even Intel gold plated the lids on their 2117 DRAM ceramic packages. --Chuck --===============5794928266525492528==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 18:15:02 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 18:14:34 +0000 Message-ID: <1743263240.232288.1674324874875@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6301454877449312327==" --===============6301454877449312327== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well the latgest question I have is whether early NEC chips with any lida we= re commonly used to populate tne 5162. And if your lids aren't gold plated, i= s the lid aluminum or some related alloy? =20 --===============6301454877449312327==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Jan 21 18:19:16 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Rejected messages Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:18:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7026016715460302858==" --===============7026016715460302858== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the switchover I am getting more and more of my messages rejected as suspected SPAM. Anyone else seeing this? bill --===============7026016715460302858==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Jan 21 18:20:10 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:19:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558066100C779A44ACA6F524EDCA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1420102726738918074==" --===============1420102726738918074== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/21/23 10:33, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> An interesting note.=C2=A0 I have a device from DBIT that lets you >> hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies. >> I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could >> hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk. >> >=20 > I use the DBIT adapter with my AppleSauce and it works pretty well.=20 But that's putting and 8" drive on a 34 pin interface. That works great. I want to go the other way around. 34 pin interface on an 50 pin 8" floppy controller. > You can also get one of these: > https://www.tindie.com/products/siliconinsider/8-floppy-disk-interface-50-p= in-to-34-pin-adapter/ I'll check this out. bill --===============1420102726738918074==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 18:23:03 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:22:21 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558042FD94C570BDB46F24F7EDCA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6175531833009248640==" --===============6175531833009248640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you're just *reading* 8" images it should just be a simple matter of remapping the pins. Here's a good reference; just reverse your perspective: http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img42841/cnct.htm FWIW, several dual-mode FDCs, notably Cromemco, effectively duplicate almost all of the relevant 50-pin signals on their 34-pin interface, so no mods or adapters required. In fact, many people use 3.5" and 5.25" HD drives (and presumably Goteks) on the 34-pin cable and they appear as 8" drives to the system. m On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 10:26 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/21/23 01:11, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it uses an AT32F415. > > > > The first one I bought many years ago has an STM32F105. > At the time there was no third party firmware and it turned > out to be pretty useless on anything other than a PC. > > With the current hXc2001 firmware it looks to be usable for > any of the disks I may want to replace. > > I just got two new ones and they have AT32F415 chips. > My understanding is that the two are functionally identical. > > We shall see as my fun progresses. > > An interesting note. I have a device from DBIT that lets you > hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies. > I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could > hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk. > > bill > > > --===============6175531833009248640==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Jan 21 18:23:23 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:22:45 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <184722330.201436.1674319304047@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7263777614980839132==" --===============7263777614980839132== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/21/23 11:41, Chris via cctalk wrote: > So converting a 1.44MB gotek to 720kb isn't possible? Seeing you habe to = replace the or some part of the stock firmware to use one with difderemt comp= uters would suggest it is a possibility. >=20 >=20 > On Saturday, January 21, 2023, 09:44:48 AM EST, Bill Gunshannon via c= ctalk wrote: > =20 > On 1/20/23 22:27, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Regardless, Keir is an impressive person for making the various projects >> (FLashFloppy and GW).=C2=A0 I think nowadays, everyone immediately replaces >> Gotek std firmware with FF on the devices as soon as they hit the mailbox. >> >=20 > My first got the hXc2001 firmware, which seems to work really well. > Later today I plan to try FlashFloppy.=C2=A0 My goal is to eventually > replace all of my mechanical floppies with solid state ones. > And I have a number of computers that use floppies!! >=20 > bill >=20 > =20 Sorry, I don't understand this comment at all. bill --===============7263777614980839132==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 18:33:54 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 18:33:18 +0000 Message-ID: <1408491912.226058.1674325998904@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580CE55910A39CDC28D743AEDCA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5161634855316896403==" --===============5161634855316896403== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, I don't understand this comment at all. bill C: Jim Brain's comment or my question about converting a 1.44MB Gotek to 720k= b? =20 --===============5161634855316896403==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 18:42:22 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] OT: boxed board games (Avalon Hill, etc.) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 18:41:53 +0000 Message-ID: <1399609632.228829.1674326513270@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <76334113.339170.1674326332776@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2264948386481052111==" --===============2264948386481052111== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking for a recommendation for an older (or even newer, some d games have = been rereleased anyway) for a either historical boxed table game ~A.D. 400 - = 1300. Or something sci-fi (nothing tv or movie related though). =20 --===============2264948386481052111==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 18:43:30 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 12:42:55 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1743263240.232288.1674324874875@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7946029845812711794==" --===============7946029845812711794== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Earlier chips would have gold and later ceramic or black to save money. With RAM being expensive it was common to take whatever you had and toss it in your next system or an expansion card so that may be what you're seeing from a previous owner. On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 12:14 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Well the latgest question I have is whether early NEC chips with any lida > were commonly used to populate tne 5162. And if your lids aren't gold > plated, is the lid aluminum or some related alloy? --===============7946029845812711794==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 18:46:49 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: boxed board games (Avalon Hill, etc.) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 10:46:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1399609632.228829.1674326513270@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1235149180684858325==" --===============1235149180684858325== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, I can count on fifteen hands some appropriate places to ask your question. This list isn't one, regardless of your OT label. For example, rpggeek.com. Please respect the mailing list. Sellam On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 10:42 AM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Looking for a recommendation for an older (or even newer, some d games > have been rereleased anyway) for a either historical boxed table game ~A.D. > 400 - 1300. Or something sci-fi (nothing tv or movie related though). > --===============1235149180684858325==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jan 21 18:52:33 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 10:52:06 -0800 Message-ID: <7283db9f-88db-6d01-ec86-80553b5dac24@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1743263240.232288.1674324874875@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3734417233433235502==" --===============3734417233433235502== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/21/23 10:14, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Well the latgest question I have is whether early NEC chips with any lida = were commonly used to populate tne 5162. And if your lids aren't gold plated,= is the lid aluminum or some related alloy? =20 I'm just guessing, but probably NP copper. --===============3734417233433235502==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 18:54:23 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: boxed board games (Avalon Hill, etc.) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 18:53:55 +0000 Message-ID: <949847241.229659.1674327235175@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2746135225463896800==" --===============2746135225463896800== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oi wow. Are you officially a moderator now. On Saturday, January 21, 2023, 01:46:32 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctal= k wrote: =20 =20 Chris, I can count on fifteen hands some appropriate places to ask your question. This list isn't one, regardless of your OT label. For example, rpggeek.com. Please respect the mailing list. Sellam On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 10:42 AM Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 Looking for a recommendation for an older (or even newer, some d games > have been rereleased anyway) for a either historical boxed table game ~A.D. > 400 - 1300. Or something sci-fi (nothing tv or movie related though). > =20 --===============2746135225463896800==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Sat Jan 21 19:08:37 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:08:03 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580CEF1486C73F5CC0D8929EDCA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6960202363085899035==" --===============6960202363085899035== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 10:18 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Since the switchover I am getting more and more of my messages > rejected as suspected SPAM. Anyone else seeing this? > No but I wish the list was configured differently so From: was the actual sender with a Reply-To of the list. Plus of course ListId: Right now From: is "sender name via cc talk" which isn't unique since some people just have a first name. Plus a Cc: sender email Makes blocking individual senders hard(er), at least on Gmail. --===============6960202363085899035==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 19:25:46 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 14:25:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4115414414710963331==" --===============4115414414710963331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of gold-plated chips, I'm finally scrapping the last remnants of a Redactron mag card word processor; the main board has some house numbered white ceramic chips with the usual gold pins and lids (24, 40, 16 pins). Any interest for decoration/jewelry/exploration/whatever? Also some Burroughs boards with their odd square package. Finally, some Burroughs memory boards containing what I think are 2102s, but I'd have to investigate. m On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 1:43 PM John Herron via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Earlier chips would have gold and later ceramic or black to save money. > With RAM being expensive it was common to take whatever you had and toss it > in your next system or an expansion card so that may be what you're seeing > from a previous owner. > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 12:14 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > Well the latgest question I have is whether early NEC chips with any > lida > > were commonly used to populate tne 5162. And if your lids aren't gold > > plated, is the lid aluminum or some related alloy? > --===============4115414414710963331==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Jan 21 19:30:53 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 14:30:25 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1408491912.226058.1674325998904@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2612019453507331426==" --===============2612019453507331426== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/21/23 13:33, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Sorry, I don't understand this comment at all. >=20 > bill >=20 > C: Jim Brain's comment or my question about converting a 1.44MB Gotek to 72= 0kb? >=20 > =20 Interesting. I never got that one. But I can say that I couldn't do that with the originals when I got them several years ago. Might have been some jumper combination to do it but there didn't seem to be any documentation about it. I put the ones I had on the shelf where they sat for years. Later I got a couple of black ones, I don't think they were GOTEKs. They not only turned out to be just as useless but worse still, they use a different processor and there is no one making third party firmware for them. Good thing all of these only cost about $20 a pop. No big loss. bill --===============2612019453507331426==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 19:37:26 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 19:36:48 +0000 Message-ID: <1680351665.237953.1674329808932@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580091CF845209FB3342218EDCA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6931435321579551331==" --===============6931435321579551331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The 720kbs are ~60% more money. You have to have one of those for an Atari S= T, Amiga, etc. I hate overpaying. I'm quite the tight wad. =20 --===============6931435321579551331==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sat Jan 21 19:51:33 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:51:01 -0600 Message-ID: <3396f538-6176-ad12-e1f0-93267fc23316@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <1408491912.226058.1674325998904@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4646145789142542166==" --===============4646145789142542166== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/21/2023 12:33 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Sorry, I don't understand this comment at all. > > bill > > C: Jim Brain's comment or my question about converting a 1.44MB Gotek > to 720kb? > I apologize, as I didn't mean to say any such thing, and I'm looking through the thread to see where I might have implied it. For future reference, if you could privately share, that would be great. Always looking to better my communications. But, to answer, at least with FLashFLoppy, both 720kB and 1.44MB are supported.  I don't know about 720kB support with the std Gotek firmware or HxC... Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============4646145789142542166==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sat Jan 21 19:51:53 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:51:10 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1680351665.237953.1674329808932@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8039505161111306690==" --===============8039505161111306690== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/21/2023 1:36 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > The 720kbs are ~60% more money. You have to have one of those for an > Atari ST, Amiga, etc. I hate overpaying. I'm quite the tight wad. I feel like you may be confusing the two threads here. FLashFLoppy works with Gotek hardware and requires no actual drive, as it replaces the floppy drive.  Most people run the FlashFloppy firmware on the unit. FF can support 720kB disk images GreaseWeazle requires a floppy drive, as it plays the part of the floppy controller.  I don't use a 3.5" drive/GW combination, since all of the disks I would ever need to archive are 5.25", but I *think* you cna safely write 720kB disks in a 1.44MB drive using GW.  IN that case, using a 1.44MB drive should work fine, but I'll defer to others who have used that combo. That said, I believe there were issues in the day in using a 1.2MB 5.25" drive to write 360kB disks, due to drive head size and power output and such.  So, the conventional wisdom was to not try to write 360kB disks in a 1.2MB drive.  Assuming that was not a tall tale, the same issue would occur with GW, as it's still bound by the specific characteristics of the drive head in use. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============8039505161111306690==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 19:55:58 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 19:55:31 +0000 Message-ID: <378185275.238170.1674330931304@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <3396f538-6176-ad12-e1f0-93267fc23316@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2386801692140229381==" --===============2386801692140229381== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm very confused at this point and not understanding the need for an apolog= y. I think it was Bill who found something unclear. I took offense at nothing= , it was unclear to me what was in question. In any event, please do carry on= . On Saturday, January 21, 2023, 02:51:12 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 1/21/2023 12:33 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Sorry, I don't understand this comment at all. > > bill > > C: Jim Brain's comment or my question about converting a 1.44MB Gotek=20 > to 720kb? > I apologize, as I didn't mean to say any such thing, and I'm looking=20 through the thread to see where I might have implied it. For future=20 reference, if you could privately share, that would be great. Always=20 looking to better my communications. But, to answer, at least with FLashFLoppy, both 720kB and 1.44MB are=20 supported.=C2=A0 I don't know about 720kB support with the std Gotek firmware= =20 or HxC... Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com =20 --===============2386801692140229381==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 21 20:00:50 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: boxed board games (Avalon Hill, etc.) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:00:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1399609632.228829.1674326513270@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5850706155938670060==" --===============5850706155938670060== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-21 11:41 a.m., Chris via cctalk wrote: > Looking for a recommendation for an older (or even newer, some d games ha= ve been rereleased anyway) for a either historical boxed table game ~A.D. 400= - 1300. Or something sci-fi (nothing tv or movie related though). > =20 King Maker was a good game. --===============5850706155938670060==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 20:03:32 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 20:03:06 +0000 Message-ID: <812244423.244745.1674331386714@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0278512857342522846==" --===============0278512857342522846== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim I know all that. Bill found something unclear, it seemed to me anyway.=20 My question was why a 1.44MB Gotek could't be made ro behave like a 720kb Got= ek. I didn't know others made Gotek clones. Whenever someone wanted to use a = Gotek with something other then a PC, something had to be written to the firm= ware. Or the firmware needed to be replaced altogether. But other then for th= e reason as someone ponted out each Gotek/clone of different capacity uses a = differt uP - why could't the entirety of the firmware be replaced, to make on= e act as another. But apparently there's more to it then that. =20 --===============0278512857342522846==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 20:04:55 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: boxed board games (Avalon Hill, etc.) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 20:04:28 +0000 Message-ID: <1451437202.253747.1674331468618@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8163773649749290363==" --===============8163773649749290363== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheesh! Keep it offlist would ya. I'm already in hot water :) --===============8163773649749290363==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sat Jan 21 20:13:03 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 14:12:37 -0600 Message-ID: <1deaaed2-ac25-abbf-7ddc-276d709c017a@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <812244423.244745.1674331386714@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1932704820982191556==" --===============1932704820982191556== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/21/2023 2:03 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Jim I know all that. Bill found something unclear, it seemed to me anyway. Bill was responding to this comment you made: On 1/21/23 11:41, Chris via cctalk wrote: =C2=A0 So converting a 1.44MB gotek to 720kb isn't possible? Seeing you habe= =20 to replace the or some part of the stock firmware to use one with=20 difderemt computers would suggest it is a possibility. > > My question was why a 1.44MB Gotek could't be made ro behave like a 720kb G= otek. My response is that it can indeed.=C2=A0 With FlashFLoppy firmware (maybe=20 even with the stock firmware, not sure), Gotek will indeed replace a=20 720kB drive or a 1.44MB drive.=C2=A0 It depends solely on the disk image you = select for the firmware to use.=C2=A0 If it's a 720kB image, FF/Gotek will=20 look like a 720kB drive to the host, a 1.44MB image will make the=20 FF/Gotek look like a 1.44MB drive to the host. > I didn't know others made Gotek clones. Whenever someone wanted to use a Go= tek with something other then a PC, something had to be written to the firmwa= re. Or the firmware needed to be replaced altogether. But other then for the = reason as someone ponted out each Gotek/clone of different capacity uses a di= ffert uP - why could't the entirety of the firmware be replaced, to make one = act as another. But apparently there's more to it then that. There's no more to it.=C2=A0 You buy the Gotek or the clone, and you (in my=20 opinion) replace the firmware with FlashFloppy.=C2=A0 Load the USB drive up=20 with images of your choice, and select one while the unit is running.=C2=A0=20 The differences in uP is a cost managed thing. The original Goteks and=20 clones used a specific STM part, but the Pandemic caused a parts=20 shortage and so the price for that part went up.=C2=A0 Gotek responded by=20 cost reducing the hardware, and so Keir and others responded by=20 reworking the firmware to handle the new part.=C2=A0 Once that happened, lots= =20 of clones with various ARM-based parts were made, and FLashFLoppy was=20 updated to support many of them (maybe not all of them, so it's=20 important to check the actual uC on the hardware before buying, to make=20 sure FlashFloppy will install. I *think* the standard Gotek or clone firmware can handle a few formats,=20 so maybe nothing needs to be updated/replaced, but I would recommend=20 moving to FLashFloppy anyway, as it's under serious development and bug=20 fixes are handles very quickly. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============1932704820982191556==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Sat Jan 21 20:14:30 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: boxed board games (Avalon Hill, etc.) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 12:14:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3CF6ED75-1B63-4ACD-B156-A51B9F4971CA@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <1399609632.228829.1674326513270@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8848559344454342300==" --===============8848559344454342300== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 21, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Chris via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > Looking for a recommendation for an older (or even newer, some d games have= been rereleased anyway) for a either historical boxed table game ~A.D. 400 -= 1300. Or something sci-fi (nothing tv or movie related though). For Sci-Fi, I=E2=80=99m really wondering about =E2=80=9CIsaac Asimov Presents= - Star Traders=E2=80=9D from =E2=80=9CSteve Jackson Games. It was released = in 1987, and sounds interesting. I know Avalon Hill did =E2=80=9CStarship Tr= oopers=E2=80=9D, I have a copy, but don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99ve ever pla= yed it. Zane --===============8848559344454342300==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sat Jan 21 20:19:25 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 14:18:57 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <49013f69-b9fa-8c10-8a67-1eb596e3d40e@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6150770920850371921==" --===============6150770920850371921== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/21/2023 6:45 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-01-20 18:14, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Al h= as the >>> datasheet archived on bitsavers: >>> >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB9= 7CFDC2-01.pdf=20 >>> >> >> also, I found it here; >> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf >> >>> What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash >>> programming... >>> I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this >>> creature.=C2=A0 Of course, there's the possibility that they're=20 >>> unobtainium... >> > The older(?) USB97CFDC is still available ... > BAH!=C2=A0 I just ordered the DC2 part! :-) Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============6150770920850371921==-- From dillera@dillernet.com Sat Jan 21 20:23:11 2023 From: Andrew Diller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 15:22:40 -0500 Message-ID: <7C25B4D5-2D87-4791-8CF5-70982772F10B@dillernet.com> In-Reply-To: <8e83de16-8846-903b-9067-7728f5f0b6de@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5196408701872154941==" --===============5196408701872154941== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IRIX isn't node-locked or licensed. Just some versions of IRIX drop support f= or old systems. Google will tell you exactly what you can install on what. In= dys can all take 6.5.22 (but will be slow). The MIPSpro C compilers were lice= nsed w/ flex but Google is also your friend for that. Totally disc-less (uses Pi and network) IRIX install of last two versions whi= ch support about 90% of SGI (and all Indys): https://github.com/unxmaal/boote= rizer RSE - the RPM Software Env for IRIX 6.5.30 and .22 is avaiable and has thousa= nds of modern packages ported and ready to install via RPM and DNF via http: = https://github.com/sgidevnet/sgug-rse/wiki Note: I worked on both of those projects and they are amazing if you have any= SGI with a MIPS 4400 or newer and Internet access! No reason to burn CDROMS = or not have some very cool tools and make IRIX useful again. -andy > On Jan 21, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Question is are these versions of Irix suitable. Or couldnI do better. And= on account of SGIs licensing scheme, which attaches a specific os version to= a maxhine (or vice versa), does that entitle me to obtain and install those = specific versions. Put anotjer way if I obtained images from somewhere, insta= lled the correct versions of Irix, would thoae machines then be legit? Or am = I supposed to pay through the nose for a subscription or whatever? >=20 > Depends on what software you want to run and if it needs the last version o= f IRIX. >=20 > I know there are people that have ported Yum (I think) to IRIX and have bee= n producing modern compiles of software but not sure how beefy the machine ne= eds to be. >=20 > You can find tons of IRIX CDs right here: >=20 > https://archive.org/search?query=3Dirix&page=3D3 >=20 > Notice that is page 2 and it's so full of IRIX software and CDs it's crazy.= Hats off to the archive on this one. >=20 > - Ethan >=20 --===============5196408701872154941==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Jan 21 20:30:56 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 12:30:28 -0800 Message-ID: <12019ea1-0227-a167-8638-3ccb88a0f43f@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7158370046654332681==" --===============7158370046654332681== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/21/23 11:51, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 1/21/2023 1:36 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> The 720kbs are ~60% more money. You have to have one of those for an >> Atari ST, Amiga, etc. I hate overpaying. I'm quite the tight wad. > > I feel like you may be confusing the two threads here. I give up and will drop out of this discussion,as I can't follow it. --Chuck --===============7158370046654332681==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 20:31:38 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 20:31:07 +0000 Message-ID: <587032959.246628.1674333067029@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <7C25B4D5-2D87-4791-8CF5-70982772F10B@dillernet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4038796080892065560==" --===============4038796080892065560== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I for 1 am getting duplicates of some messages. It's been happening for week= s. Figured it was time to say something. =20 --===============4038796080892065560==-- From jpstewart@personalprojects.net Sat Jan 21 20:31:59 2023 From: John-Paul Stewart To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 2 sets of IRIX, 2 Indys and I1 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 15:30:33 -0500 Message-ID: <44a705db-b0d4-1138-e0d0-0445091f5762@personalprojects.net> In-Reply-To: <556653542.3481839.1674231597078@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6109938670860432526==" --===============6109938670860432526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/20/23 11:19, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > I have 2 IRIX sets. 15 disk 6.5.4 iinm. And a 3 diak 6.5.6. Have 2 > Indys, 1 is busted up, the 1 I'll wind up keeping for an extended period > probably. 1 Indy has an r5000 I think and a graphics card. The other is > mediocre. Also have an R1000 Impact I2. The first thing to be aware of is that the 3-disk set for 6.5.6 will be just the "overlays" (in SGI terminology). The 15-disk 6.5.4 set will include the base 6.5 distribution (12 disks) plus the 6.5.4 overlays (3 disks). No matter what version of 6.5.x you install, you'll need the same base disks from that 6.5.4 set. Then add the overlays for whichever specific point release you want. > Question is are these versions of Irix suitable. Or couldnI do better. > And on account of SGIs licensing scheme, which attaches a specific os > version to a maxhine (or vice versa), does that entitle me to obtain and > install those specific versions. Put anotjer way if I obtained images > from somewhere, installed the correct versions of Irix, would thoae > machines then be legit? Or am I supposed to pay through the nose for a > subscription or whatever? The machines you have were supported up to 6.5.22, so you can run anything up to that. (And frankly, I don't know why you'd want an earlier 6.5.x release.) After that only the O2, Octane, and newer systems were supported. You can also go with something older than 6.5.x. Both 6.2 and 5.3 are options on the Indys. Only 6.2 would support the R10K Impact system. IRIX 6.5.x likes lots of RAM. Consider 128 MB the minimum, 256 MB is better. (Which doesn't sound like a lot today, but it was 25 years ago when these machines were current!) If you have less RAM, then definitely consider earlier IRIX. The final release was 6.5.30, but that was way back in 2006. Even extended support contracts for those paying the big money ran out sometime around a decade ago. There is simply no way to pay for a license or subscription for any version of IRIX at this point in time. I can't comment on the legalities of it, but "use what you can get" seems to be a common approach in the SGI community as a result. > Take the I2s for instance. Is the hardware any more reliable, > longevity wise, then your average good quality pc? I don't know about longevity. They were high performance systems compared to PCs of the era. The operating system was very stable. They're very different hardware than PCs of that (or any) era. Those are why people still love them today, more than longevity. You're talking about 25-30 year old machines. They will have problems these days. I don't often see SGI stuff discussed on this list. You might get more detailed info from web forums: https://forums.irixnet.org/ https://forums.sgi.sh/ (I'm a user of the irixnet.org forums.) --===============6109938670860432526==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jan 21 20:39:41 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 12:39:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1168239472422800229==" --===============1168239472422800229== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>> There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Al = has the >>>> datasheet archived on bitsavers: >>>> http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB= 97CFDC2-01.pdf=20 >>> also, I found it here; >>> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf >>>> What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash >>>> programming... A possible minor issue, and/or stupid question, . . .=20 looking at the datasheet, it says that it supports 1Mbps, 500 Kbps,=20 300Kbps, 250Kbps data rates. 1Mbps is the never-made-it-to-mainstream "2.8M" drive (and NeXT "4M" (unforma= tted)) 500 Kbps is "HD" ("1.4M", "1.2M", and 8"DD/MFM) 300 Kbps is a "360K" disk in a "1.2M" drive (compensating for the 360RPM) 250 Kbps is 5.25" DD/MFM (and also 8" FM/SD) For 5.25" FM/SD, don't you also need a 125 Kbps data rate? 1) SO, does this mean that it can't handle 5.25" single density (TRS80=20 model 1, early Osborne, and many others)? 2) It mentions Win98/2000 driver and firmware. Is there also newer=20 driver/firmware support? --===============1168239472422800229==-- From jf.secker@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 20:44:57 2023 From: Jan Secker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Searching documentation for Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 21:44:25 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7245533425734247969==" --===============7245533425734247969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony, I suppose by now you do not have the documentation I am looking for, but maybe you know somebody else who might have this. Jan Secker Op di 13 dec. 2022 om 12:26 schreef Tony Duell : > On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 11:11 AM jf.secker--- via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hello List, > > > > I have made an implementation of Sytse van Slootens PDP2011 MINC system > ( https://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/pdp-11/minc/ ) on a Terasic DE10 > Lite board. > > There exists documentation for the MINC system, but it is not complete. > > Schematics and/or user guides for the DEC MINC modules MNCAG and MNCTP > are still missing and not to be found in the usual places. > > Maybe some of the contributors to this list own a MINC system wich > contains these modules. > > If so, they might have the documentation I am looking for and are > willing to share these. > > I do have a MINC with both those modules, but I don't think I have any > documentation on them. I will check though, > > -tony > --===============7245533425734247969==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Sat Jan 21 20:51:31 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 2102s and other chips / was Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 12:43:58 -0800 Message-ID: <6E8D8AD0-63AA-46F9-BAC5-052BE263B3BD@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0921176065820772389==" --===============0921176065820772389== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-Jan-21, at 11:25 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Finally, some Burroughs memory boards containing what I think are 2102s, > but I'd have to investigate. Soldered or socketed? I'm on the lookout for 16 (or more to have some spares) 2102s to populate an = EconoRAM S100 memory board to go in an Altair. Proviso being they have to be = 'fast enough' (<=3D450nS, not sure whether 650 would be OK or not). ... > Speaking of gold-plated chips, I'm finally scrapping the last remnants of a > Redactron mag card word processor; the main board has some house numbered > white ceramic chips with the usual gold pins and lids (24, 40, 16 pins). (Could probably figure out many of them with some rev-eng'ing to get their pi= nout.) --===============0921176065820772389==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jan 21 20:56:24 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 12:55:59 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <229424328.221147.1674321703466@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5088655500917797335==" --===============5088655500917797335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I have an xt mobo and some portion is populated w/NEC 4116 or 4164 chips > (but 4116s were specific to the 5150, no? It's not in front of me). > There are a bunch on the board, not sure if it's all the ram. Was this > typical (I'm sure that wasn't the case). Is this an example of an early > 5160? Why did they goldnplate the covers? The first 5150 was available with one row of 16K RAM, you could plug whatever you had (such as from Godbout) into the other 3 rows, and almost anything was cheaper than IBM's prices. I think that the early 5160 also used 16K RAM, but I don't know if you could buy one without all 4 rows populated. Then 5160 was available that could use 64K RAM chips, and/or, with a trivial mod could use two rows of 256K chips, plus two rows of 64K chips. Anybody remember the full details? Why not gold-plate? Gold was under $200 an ounce fora while, and the thickness was thin. --===============5088655500917797335==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sat Jan 21 21:17:27 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 15:52:16 -0500 Message-ID: <576e5bc6-37d6-d6ba-423b-0bedaa9b6adb@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5683825995635345484==" --===============5683825995635345484== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-21 15:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Al= has the >>>>> datasheet archived on bitsavers: >>>>> http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/US= B97CFDC2-01.pdf=20 >>>> also, I found it here; >>>> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf >>>>> What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash >>>>> programming... >=20 > A possible minor issue, and/or stupid question, . . . looking at the=20 > datasheet, it says that it supports 1Mbps, 500 Kbps, 300Kbps, 250Kbps=20 > data rates. >=20 > 1Mbps is the never-made-it-to-mainstream "2.8M" drive (and NeXT "4M"=20 > (unformatted)) > 500 Kbps is "HD" ("1.4M", "1.2M", and 8"DD/MFM) > 300 Kbps is a "360K" disk in a "1.2M" drive (compensating for the 360RPM) > 250 Kbps is 5.25" DD/MFM (and also 8" FM/SD) >=20 > For 5.25" FM/SD, don't you also need a 125 Kbps data rate? >=20 > 1) SO, does this mean that it can't handle 5.25" single density (TRS80=20 > model 1, early Osborne, and many others)? >=20 > 2) It mentions Win98/2000 driver and firmware.=C2=A0 Is there also newer=20 > driver/firmware support? Isn't the biggest problem, that it uses the NEC 765 controller, which=20 can't read a lot of the WD formatted floppies? --===============5683825995635345484==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Sat Jan 21 21:19:50 2023 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:19:24 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1743263240.232288.1674324874875@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4736176255327080618==" --===============4736176255327080618== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-Jan-21, at 10:14 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > And if your lids aren't gold plated, is the lid aluminum or some related al= loy? =20 Tin-plate on copper would be likely, easy to solder-seal on. Al would not sol= der on easily. Tin does make a nice plating. Even HP made some lab/computing equipment in th= e 60/70s with tin-plate (not solder 'tinned') PCBs including the edge-connect= or fingers, even though that is the era they were known for full-gold-plate P= CBs. --===============4736176255327080618==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jan 21 21:37:54 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:37:29 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <576e5bc6-37d6-d6ba-423b-0bedaa9b6adb@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5794772243744391907==" --===============5794772243744391907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>>> There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller.=C2=A0=C2=A0 A= l has the >>>>>> datasheet archived on bitsavers: >>>>>> http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/U= SB97CFDC2-01.pdf=20 >>>>> also, I found it here; >>>>> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf >>>>>> What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash >>>>>> programming... >> A possible minor issue, and/or stupid question, . . . looking at the=20 >> datasheet, it says that it supports 1Mbps, 500 Kbps, 300Kbps, 250Kbps data= =20 >> rates. >> 1Mbps is the never-made-it-to-mainstream "2.8M" drive (and NeXT "4M"=20 >> (unformatted)) >> 500 Kbps is "HD" ("1.4M", "1.2M", and 8"DD/MFM) >> 300 Kbps is a "360K" disk in a "1.2M" drive (compensating for the 360RPM) >> 250 Kbps is 5.25" DD/MFM (and also 8" FM/SD) >> For 5.25" FM/SD, don't you also need a 125 Kbps data rate? >> 1) SO, does this mean that it can't handle 5.25" single density (TRS80=20 >> model 1, early Osborne, and many others)? >> 2) It mentions Win98/2000 driver and firmware.=C2=A0 Is there also newer=20 >> driver/firmware support? On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Isn't the biggest problem, that it uses the NEC 765 controller, which can't= =20 > read a lot of the WD formatted floppies? The biggest problem that I had with the NEC765 (PC) was the "flash=20 blindness" - there was a delay after the index pulse before it could read. Some systems with Western Digital (179x), for a crowded format, such as=20 Cromemco, would start the first sector too soon after the index pulse. Often, you could get around that by masking off the index pulse for=20 reading, either in cable or on FDC board, or even physically taping over=20 the index hole of the floppy jacket (not for drives that relied on index=20 pulse to know whether drive was ready) Unfotunately, in an unsuccessful read, not having index pulse would=20 confuse the error reporting. Also, the WD had a real "track read", whereas the NEC's "track read" was a=20 multi-sector read. A real track read is handy for disk analysis (I kept a=20 TRS80M3, with modified copy of Trakcess, handy), and for formats such as=20 Amiga which were MFM, but without WD/IBM sector headers. So, I would agree that WD179x would be preferable, using NEC765 simplifies=20 drivers for using it as the disk controller on PC. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5794772243744391907==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 21:39:21 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 21:38:49 +0000 Message-ID: <000e01d92de0$c035dd20$40a19760$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1230834715216104640==" --===============1230834715216104640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Brain via cctalk > Sent: 21 January 2023 19:51 > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Jim Brain > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate > Maryland Man >=20 > On 1/21/2023 1:36 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > The 720kbs are ~60% more money. You have to have one of those for an > > Atari ST, Amiga, etc. I hate overpaying. I'm quite the tight wad. >=20 > I feel like you may be confusing the two threads here. >=20 > FLashFLoppy works with Gotek hardware and requires no actual drive, as it > replaces the floppy drive. Most people run the FlashFloppy firmware on the= unit. > FF can support 720kB disk images >=20 > GreaseWeazle requires a floppy drive, as it plays the part of the floppy > controller. I don't use a 3.5" drive/GW combination, since all of the disk= s I > would ever need to archive are 5.25", but I *think* you cna safely write 72= 0kB > disks in a 1.44MB drive using GW. IN that case, using a 1.44MB drive should > work fine, but I'll defer to others who have used that combo. >=20 > That said, I believe there were issues in the day in using a 1.2MB 5.25" > drive to write 360kB disks, due to drive head size and power output and > such. So, the conventional wisdom was to not try to write 360kB disks in a > 1.2MB drive. Assuming that was not a tall tale, the same issue would occur= with > GW, as it's still bound by the specific characteristics of the drive head i= n use. It depends. 1.2Mb drives write a narrower track so if you put in a 360 or 640= disk in that=E2=80=99s already been written and write to it, then existing d= ata may not be properly erased on a write. So long as you only ever write on the 1.2MB drive its fine.... >=20 > Jim >=20 > -- > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com =20 Dave --===============1230834715216104640==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 21:40:24 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 21:39:58 +0000 Message-ID: <416643651.267824.1674337198567@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3223030350277245250==" --===============3223030350277245250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, January 21, 2023, 03:56:06 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Why not gold-plate? Gold was under $200 an ounce fora while, and the thickness was thin. In all honesty I hadn't allowed for non gold plated lids. Didn't know they we= re a thing. I certainly have no problem with gilded ram. I found the thing at= a vcf swap meet. No one else wanted it (?) so I snagged it. Along with a no = unnamed 5160 clone that to my amazement had a black IBM p\s inside. Maybe I'l= l pull that mobo and insert Goldilocks. =20 --===============3223030350277245250==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Jan 21 21:53:31 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:53:07 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <416643651.267824.1674337198567@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2401848811650567139==" --===============2401848811650567139== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > In all honesty I hadn't allowed for non gold plated lids. Didn't know > they were a thing. I certainly have no problem with gilded ram. I found > the thing at a vcf swap meet. No one else wanted it (?) so I snagged it. > Along with a no unnamed 5160 clone that to my amazement had a black IBM > p\s inside. Maybe I'll pull that mobo and insert Goldilocks. Some eaarly 5150's had a black power supply, sometimes with a white switch. My first 5150 (directly from IBM) had a black supply. But, that was a 65W power supply, and for a 5160, especially if you put in a hard disk, you want the 135W supply. The stock (made by Xebec) 5160 hard drive controller supported two drives of 5MB, 10MB (default), 16MB, and 26MB drives with unmarked jumper pad. Any of those full height hard drives would be more than appropriate power draw for the 65W power supply. --===============2401848811650567139==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sat Jan 21 21:58:35 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 15:58:08 -0600 Message-ID: <320382520.784057.1674338288052@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2455533470216772117==" --===============2455533470216772117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 01/21/2023 2:55 PM CST Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: > The first 5150 was available with one row of 16K RAM, you could plug > whatever you had (such as from Godbout) into the other 3 rows, and almost > anything was cheaper than IBM's prices. >=20 >=20 > I think that the early 5160 also used 16K RAM, but I don't know if you > could buy one without all 4 rows populated. >=20 > Then 5160 was available that could use 64K RAM chips, and/or, with a > trivial mod could use two rows of 256K chips, plus two rows of 64K chips. >=20 > Anybody remember the full details? >=20 That all sounds correct. In addition, I seem to recall there were some even l= ater 5160s that came from the factory with the 640K "mod." I just opened the = 5160 I have to look at it. It's crammed full of boards that I didn't want to = pull, but I could see it has four rows of what look like 64K chips. The board= is marked "64 / 256K " and it has some RAM on at least one of the plug-in bo= ards. I really should sell this monster before I get too old to lift it. Will --===============2455533470216772117==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 22:04:57 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 22:04:27 +0000 Message-ID: <945355508.266705.1674338667208@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7775786651222055491==" --===============7775786651222055491== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I obviously am into pain. But not so much that I want to wrestle with a mfm/= rll/esdi drive. I didn't say I was going to use it for much. The black p/s ma= y not even work. It didn't have a white switch don't think. The point is if I= got it all working it would be aomething of an 80s retro type of sleeper pc.= No name case, buy all True Blue inside. And weirdly vintage even for it's ti= me (on account of the black and gold). =20 --===============7775786651222055491==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 22:05:34 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 14:04:56 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3629461025354754720==" --===============3629461025354754720== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 12:56 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Why not gold-plate? Gold was under $200 an ounce fora while, and the > thickness was thin. > Price is not a very good indicator for gold, especially nowadays as it's so heavily manipulated/controlled by the banksters. Looking at this chart showing historical gold production going back to 1960, one can observe that gold supplies decreased sharply during the 1970s, and continued to drop into the 1980s. This seems to coincide with when memory prices were increasing dramatically (as a result of production shortages). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_gold#/media/File:Top_5_Gold_Producers.png At the same time, observe that by the mid- to late-1980s gold production in the USA, Australia, and China began ramped up sharply. I believe that also coincides with memory prices coming back down. Whether that correlation is THE reason or the ONLY reason, I can't say without further inquiry, but on the face of it, the supply of gold seems to have been a contributing factor to the price of RAM skyrocketing. Regardless, whether or not gold is "cheap" is not really the issue in my opinion. Gold is an expensive material to use relative to most others that go into making a computer no matter what it costs, and no (sensible) company is going to use more than it really needs. Thinly-plated gold on one RAM chip is not that much, but multiply that by a million and now we're talking a treasure chest. The first Pentium processor contained about half a gram of gold in it, which is considerable. There are 31.1g in a troy ounce, and a troy ounce of gold is currently shooting back towards $2,000 (and likely well beyond at this point). If you can get your hands on 16 original Pentium processors, you've got yourself some nice vacation money (ignoring extraction and refining costs). Compare that to processors today, which have virtually no gold in the CPU, and only a thin plating on the pins. And then there's a company several years ago that created a silver alloy that does not tarnish, obviating the need for gold plating except for in the most critical electronics applications. There's (usually) a good reason companies manufacture their products the way they do, and it's not to make them look blingy (well, some do). If it's not absolutely required, they're not going to use it. As soon as it was feasible to do away with using gold, it was phased out. Sellam --===============3629461025354754720==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 22:07:10 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 22:06:44 +0000 Message-ID: <608202044.268748.1674338804909@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5700902122316798059==" --===============5700902122316798059== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And 1 of the floppies (it may habe 3) was full height. So maybe someone was = trying to pawn it off as a real xt, piling everything they could into the box= to make it convincing as possible. =20 --===============5700902122316798059==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 22:11:16 2023 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 2102s and other chips / was Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:10:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6E8D8AD0-63AA-46F9-BAC5-052BE263B3BD@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2854509599778527624==" --===============2854509599778527624== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What is the Burroughs part number / printed on the chip? The 1449 1112 RAM chips are Burroughs' part number for the intel 2102 RAM Bill On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 3:51 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2023-Jan-21, at 11:25 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > > Finally, some Burroughs memory boards containing what I think are 2102s, > > but I'd have to investigate. > > Soldered or socketed? > > I'm on the lookout for 16 (or more to have some spares) 2102s to populate > an EconoRAM S100 memory board to go in an Altair. Proviso being they have > to be 'fast enough' (<=450nS, not sure whether 650 would be OK or not). > > ... > > Speaking of gold-plated chips, I'm finally scrapping the last remnants > of a > > Redactron mag card word processor; the main board has some house numbered > > white ceramic chips with the usual gold pins and lids (24, 40, 16 pins). > > (Could probably figure out many of them with some rev-eng'ing to get their > pinout.) > > --===============2854509599778527624==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sat Jan 21 22:44:20 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 2102s and other chips / was Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:43:39 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4948110756146738178==" --===============4948110756146738178== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nope, they're numbered 2479 9595, but ISTR some irregularities among BBM part numbers, especially when it came to LSI and memory chips. They do have GND and Vcc on pins 9 and 10 respectively though, as Brent suggests; maybe my memory from 30 years ago isn't so bad after all (no idea what I had for breakfast though). I did misremember the no. of chips though: 9 x 16, so presumably with parity. m On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 5:10 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > What is the Burroughs part number / printed on the chip? The 1449 1112 RAM > chips are Burroughs' part number for the intel 2102 RAM > Bill > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 3:51 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 2023-Jan-21, at 11:25 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Finally, some Burroughs memory boards containing what I think are > 2102s, > > > but I'd have to investigate. > > > > Soldered or socketed? > > > > I'm on the lookout for 16 (or more to have some spares) 2102s to populate > > an EconoRAM S100 memory board to go in an Altair. Proviso being they have > > to be 'fast enough' (<=450nS, not sure whether 650 would be OK or not). > > > > ... > > > Speaking of gold-plated chips, I'm finally scrapping the last remnants > > of a > > > Redactron mag card word processor; the main board has some house > numbered > > > white ceramic chips with the usual gold pins and lids (24, 40, 16 > pins). > > > > (Could probably figure out many of them with some rev-eng'ing to get > their > > pinout.) > > > > > --===============4948110756146738178==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Sun Jan 22 00:48:46 2023 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 01:48:17 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6826965750665526943==" --===============6826965750665526943== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 07:55:50PM -0800, geneb via cctalk wrote: [...] > I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the AppleSauce yet. Yes, it requires a > Mac. Yes, they're currently out of stock, but Yes, it's absolutely the > best solution out there for disk imaging. https://applesaucefdc.com/ It's certainly priced as if they think it's the "best solution". But it's also closed-source, driven by a weird GUI tool, and unavailable for at least six months. Charging a whopping $70 for shipping and tossing it into the regular international mail is just icing. So it's not even close to my idea of "best" on any of those fronts, but hey, whatever works for you. My objection to such a thing being closed-source isn't just ideological. If I am trying to read a disk which has an unrecognised format or is so mangled that the software throws up its arms, I'm completely out of luck adding support to it myself. Their response to Linux and Windows users is basically "run our software on a pirate copy of MacOS in a VM". Yes, users of disk imaging tools are unlikely to care much about violating copyright, but it's probably best to not say the quiet part out loud here. --===============6826965750665526943==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sun Jan 22 01:17:47 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] in need of 2.5" disks Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 01:17:20 +0000 Message-ID: <1523792833.303369.1674350240791@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1523792833.303369.1674350240791.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5240734659868517741==" --===============5240734659868517741== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You read it right. I think only Zenith and Fujifilm made them. --===============5240734659868517741==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sun Jan 22 01:26:35 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 18:25:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1523792833.303369.1674350240791@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8152276212521922670==" --===============8152276212521922670== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 6:17 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > You read it right. I think only Zenith and Fujifilm made them. > Years ago I bought a portable with 2.5" floppies. It came with 1 disk that was dodgy... I couldn't find disks then... and that was the 90s... good luck. Warner > --===============8152276212521922670==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jan 22 02:04:59 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 18:04:22 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6597628115265222018==" --===============6597628115265222018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Zenith MiniSport? I've got one, with about 7 minidisks. Sellam On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 5:26 PM Warner Losh via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 6:17 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > You read it right. I think only Zenith and Fujifilm made them. > > > > Years ago I bought a portable with 2.5" floppies. It came with 1 disk that > was dodgy... I couldn't find disks then... and that was the 90s... good > luck. > > Warner > > > > --===============6597628115265222018==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jan 22 04:40:46 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 20:40:18 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1523792833.303369.1674350240791@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7026924231644047294==" --===============7026924231644047294== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There were a few other, incompatible ones! I remember a cheap word processor with a 2.5" disk with a spiral track! But, the Zenith (Mini-sport?) was the common one. There were also 2.9" and, of course, for PC there were 3", 3.25", 3.5", and IBM almost came out with a 3.9"! On Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > You read it right. I think only Zenith and Fujifilm made them. --===============7026924231644047294==-- From doc@vaxen.net Sun Jan 22 05:39:24 2023 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 23:38:52 -0600 Message-ID: <980926f4-86f8-9b06-be1d-84bfea34c823@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: <89e51dea-0dac-19a1-cb5c-702a368e987e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8920624687795262540==" --===============8920624687795262540== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/21/23 11:35, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/20/23 22:11, Mike Stein wrote: >> FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it uses an AT32F415. > > Aw shucks, that's not inspiring at all. F4 core, but only 32KB of SRAM. > Probably is cheaper than the usual STM32F107. The 2022 Goteks use a 256KB artery; I don't know the part number offhand. The 32KB Goteks work fine (in the formats I know - PC & Amiga mostly) with good fast USB storage and FlashFloppy firmware. HxC did *not* work for a while but I think that's been fixed. (and no, the AT32F415 variants weren't one bit cheaper.) Doc --===============8920624687795262540==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jan 22 05:45:00 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 21:44:31 -0800 Message-ID: <4a2b9e5c-1f42-003b-fed2-857de9658aed@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0155447065691278607==" --===============0155447065691278607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/21/23 20:40, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > There were a few other, incompatible ones! > I remember a cheap word processor with a 2.5" disk with a spiral track! Smith Corona Data Disk--I did a decoder for one of those (Mitsumi?) for a forensics client. Used a 2650 USART in sync mode with a bit of glue. (9216 data separator) Worked just fine. Still have the ISA board. --Chuck --===============0155447065691278607==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jan 22 06:09:53 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 22:09:20 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4a2b9e5c-1f42-003b-fed2-857de9658aed@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3171367891939805554==" --===============3171367891939805554== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> There were a few other, incompatible ones! >> I remember a cheap word processor with a 2.5" disk with a spiral track! On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Smith Corona Data Disk--I did a decoder for one of those (Mitsumi?) for > a forensics client. Used a 2650 USART in sync mode with a bit of glue. > (9216 data separator) Worked just fine. Still have the ISA board. Thank you. I saw it at Comdex, and then never again. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3171367891939805554==-- From ethan@757.org Sun Jan 22 06:12:26 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 01:12:02 -0500 Message-ID: <833a2e50-9645-7b7d-ee67-cb6d9d54f45d@757.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6349662114728766103==" --===============6349662114728766103== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I saw it at Comdex, and then never again. Nintendo Famicom disk system uses some kind of odd sized not swure disk. -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============6349662114728766103==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jan 22 07:23:57 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 23:23:33 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <833a2e50-9645-7b7d-ee67-cb6d9d54f45d@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9035069669895345824==" --===============9035069669895345824== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Ethan O'Toole wrote: > Nintendo Famicom disk system uses some kind of odd sized not swure disk. Is that the same 2.8"? Mitsumi "Quick Disk" floppy used in the Smith Corona Word Processor? --===============9035069669895345824==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jan 22 07:35:49 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 23:35:18 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8610498706074394515==" --===============8610498706074394515== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/21/23 23:23, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Ethan O'Toole wrote: >> Nintendo Famicom disk system uses some kind of odd sized not swure disk. > > Is that the same 2.8"? Mitsumi "Quick Disk" floppy used in the Smith > Corona Word Processor? > I believe so--at least the Famicom replacement drive belts work in the SCM Mitsumi drives. It's been something like 30 years since I fooled with the things (still have one in the closet) but I recall the interface was very simple--power, one line to start the spiral (controlled a solenoid clutch) and the read/write data lines. I think the Smith-Corona got something around 60K per disk,but I'd have to check my notes. Using the USART, it was very simple (this was before cheap MCUs). --Chuck --===============8610498706074394515==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sun Jan 22 09:36:27 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 09:36:02 +0000 Message-ID: <2107791495.338948.1674380162187@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0452066839171761193==" --===============0452066839171761193== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, January 21, 2023, 09:04:39 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: The Zenith MiniSport? I've got one, with about 7 minidisks. Sellam I have 2 already. Wanna sell me 1 disk? I'm toying with the possibility of ma= king them. I actually used to have a single disk, but took it apart and threw= it out like a fool. If yours had the external 3.5" drive, I could be interested on buying all of = it. =20 --===============0452066839171761193==-- From sieler@allegrosupport.com Sun Jan 22 11:13:31 2023 From: Stan Sieler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] HPE StorageWorks DAT 40 USB Tape Drive questions Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:20:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167432400824.1602.14163234222980922442@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0807366544281990547==" --===============0807366544281990547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Has anyone used an HPE StorageWorks DAT 40 USB Tape Drive on a Mac / PC / Linux as a "standard" tape drive (i.e., I want to be able to "dd" from one, not use some HP provided backup package). (I have no interest in writing to tapes, BTW) I just got such a drive today (#1), and hope to use it to read 10 to 20 year old DDS2 & DDS3 tapes in a "tapecopy" (semi-raw data to disk file) manner. (The DAT 40 is a DDS4 drive, which supports reading DDS2 and DDS3 ... newer drives don't support DDS2, and I've never seen a DDS3 on USB.) I found HP's cache of docs/drivers for the newer DAT 72 drive, and some indications that the -40 and -72 are essentially similar (other than the -72 being a DDS5 drive). I'd prefer reading the tapes on a Mac, but if Linux/Win is needed, I'm hoping I can use a virtual one :) thanks! ---- 1. I'd try it out today, but my main computer is packed up, waiting to move to a temporary house, because we have to move out of our house due to water-damage driven kitchen remodel : ( --===============0807366544281990547==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sun Jan 22 13:04:06 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 13:03:31 +0000 Message-ID: <2108420520.350368.1674392611535@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1deaaed2-ac25-abbf-7ddc-276d709c017a@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3833206548638887972==" --===============3833206548638887972== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok Jimmo. Thanks for setting me strait! --===============3833206548638887972==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sun Jan 22 13:05:18 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 08:04:45 -0500 Message-ID: <33fbd48e-8d43-d2c9-4997-c0786aa3ecd9@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0161106376326526820==" --===============0161106376326526820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-21 15:18, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 1/21/2023 6:45 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> On 2023-01-20 18:14, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>> There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Al = has the >>>> datasheet archived on bitsavers: >>>> >>>> http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB= 97CFDC2-01.pdf >>> >>> also, I found it here; >>> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf >>> >>>> What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash >>>> programming... >>>> I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this >>>> creature.=C2=A0 Of course, there's the possibility that they're=20 >>>> unobtainium... >>> >> The older(?) USB97CFDC is still available ... >> > BAH!=C2=A0 I just ordered the DC2 part! :-) You found a better manual, than die two above? You have an 8051 inside, and a 765 FDC, but on what adresses, etc.? How would you write any software for that? --===============0161106376326526820==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sun Jan 22 13:15:13 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 13:14:40 +0000 Message-ID: <253747066.357155.1674393280887@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <253747066.357155.1674393280887.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5884013239818680159==" --===============5884013239818680159== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was intended no= t so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled people with their = usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, it's an i= ndispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint where I favored trac= kballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural and faster. Each may e= xcel in cwrtain applications. Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads superior, ma= ke that way superior to that horrific track point used on old Thinkpads. But = again that'a me. Touch screens, my hatred for them grows almost daily. They h= ave their place. And for portable devices they're largely the only game in to= wn. But I often wish I at least had the option of a mouse or something close. Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects of t= he newer tech just await refinement?=20 --===============5884013239818680159==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 22 16:19:56 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 09:19:28 -0700 Message-ID: <22ffaade-f26e-781d-5507-572778123cd9@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <253747066.357155.1674393280887@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5982551278382688968==" --===============5982551278382688968== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-22 6:14 a.m., Chris via cctalk wrote: > Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was intended = not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled people with thei= r usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, it's an= indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint where I favored tr= ackballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural and faster. Each may= excel in cwrtain applications. >=20 > Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads superior, = make that way superior to that horrific track point used on old Thinkpads. Bu= t again that'a me. Touch screens, my hatred for them grows almost daily. They= have their place. And for portable devices they're largely the only game in = town. But I often wish I at least had the option of a mouse or something clos= e. >=20 > Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects of= the newer tech just await refinement? CHEAPER IS BETTER!!! PC CLONES. or SELL A NEW PRODUCT AT HIGH PRICE AND CALL IT BETTER TECH !!! $100 mouse. $100 usb cables. or JUST BE BIGGER, APPLE,IBM,INTEL. It all boils down to marketing, and how to make people by newer crap. Ben. --===============5982551278382688968==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Jan 22 16:43:48 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 10:43:24 -0600 Message-ID: <93155e15-6ffe-e087-0b59-9cb7bd090e5e@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <253747066.357155.1674393280887@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0860218212814170174==" --===============0860218212814170174== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/22/23 07:14, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was intended = not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled people with thei= r usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, it's an= indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint where I favored tr= ackballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural and faster. Each may= excel in cwrtain applications. I use a trackball on all my computers.=C2=A0 Logitech works, but=20 very expensive.=C2=A0 I use Kensington version.=C2=A0 I do a lot of=20 electronic CAD work, and the mouse moves when I go to click=20 a button.=C2=A0 That requires me to have a death grip on the=20 mouse, and that gives me carpal tunnel symptoms.=C2=A0 You can=20 take your fingers off the trackball before pressing the=20 buttons, then there is no cursor motion. Jon --===============0860218212814170174==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Sun Jan 22 17:13:08 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 09:12:34 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2141213144527129151==" --===============2141213144527129151== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 07:55:50PM -0800, geneb via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the AppleSauce yet. Yes, it requires a >> Mac. Yes, they're currently out of stock, but Yes, it's absolutely the >> best solution out there for disk imaging. https://applesaucefdc.com/ > > It's certainly priced as if they think it's the "best solution". But it's > also closed-source, driven by a weird GUI tool, and unavailable for at least > six months. Charging a whopping $70 for shipping and tossing it into the > regular international mail is just icing. So it's not even close to my idea > of "best" on any of those fronts, but hey, whatever works for you. > I would love to see your equivalent hardware, hand soldered by you, and included a software package that's light years ahead of anything currently available in open or closed source. Follow that up by shipping it at a loss because who cares how much it costs to ship something from Hawaii to the UK, as long as some rando on the internet is satisfied. Go ahead. I'll sit here, eaglerly awaiting your results. > My objection to such a thing being closed-source isn't just ideological. If > I am trying to read a disk which has an unrecognised format or is so mangled > that the software throws up its arms, I'm completely out of luck adding > support to it myself. > It's purely ideological. Otherwise, you would have asked the developer what it takes to add new formats to the software. You could have also gone to the Documentation page and discovered that the ability to create new formats for both hard & soft sectored media is built in. Here's the link to the Hard Sectored format documentation to get you started: https://wiki.applesaucefdc.com/doku.php?id=adv:hardsectorconf If you have no idea what format the disk is in, you can create an A2R flux image of it and send it to John(author) - he loves puzzles like that. > Their response to Linux and Windows users is basically "run our software on > a pirate copy of MacOS in a VM". Yes, users of disk imaging tools are > unlikely to care much about violating copyright, but it's probably best to > not say the quiet part out loud here. Oh ffs. No, "their" response is typically, "you can buy a used Mac Mini off of eBay for under $200 and use that" and if you can't afford that, THEN you can set up a VM. You can get a suitable Mac Mini via this link for $150, free shipping and a 3 year warranty: https://www.ebay.com/itm/144642477287 If you don't have an HDMI monitor or USB keyboard, I suspect eBay can help there too. Hopefully the statement at the end of the About page on the AppleSauce site will get you to stop the "but closed source!" pearl clutching. "Applesauce is not an open source project, and there are some wild stories about why that is. But there are 3 independent people that have full access to the repository containing every scrap of source code and hardware projects about Applesauce. These people have been instructed to release everything into the public domain in the case of anything happening to me, or me getting bored and walking away from the project. It is important to me that people understand that even though it isn’t currently open source, there will never be a situation in which they will get stuck with hardware that is no longer supported or supportable. All of the file formats and such have already been fully documented and released into the public domain. I have also released documentation for the entire communication protocol between the client and hardware so that people can write their own software. No silly licensing rules! No special institutional rules, expenses, or overreaching requirements. You are buying a tool from us. What you do with it is your business. The client software is the most powerful disk analysis software available and is frequently updated adding new features. And it will always be free." If you're super butthurt over the price of the hardware, there's nothing stopping you from writing firmware for the GreaseWeazel using the documented communication protocol that the AS hardware uses. Of course you'd still have to touch one of those icky* Macs, but I can't solve all your problems for you. g. * [I *hate* Macs. Like with a screaming purple passion. The last good computer Apple built was the IIgs. It's been shit downhill ever since. That being said, the capability presented by the AppleSauce hardware & software is a compelling reason to own one.] g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============2141213144527129151==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Sun Jan 22 17:20:09 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 09:19:32 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6732455735893286416==" --===============6732455735893286416== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do us a favor, if your going to reply in a rather snarky disrespectful tone at least put your actual name on the message envelope. On Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 9:12 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > I would love to see your equivalent hardware, hand soldered by you, > ... Go ahead. I'll sit here, eaglerly awaiting your results. > ... > ... Oh ffs. No, "their" response is typically, "you can buy a used Mac Mini off of eBay for under $200 and use that" and if you can't afford that, > .com --===============6732455735893286416==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Sun Jan 22 17:30:52 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 09:30:16 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5bb33d24-8a16-a983-d816-4acf3930a6cd@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7907206391403296597==" --===============7907206391403296597== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jan 20, 2023, 9:28 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > This is a huge improvement over the STM32F107 used on these originally. > 288MHz, lots of flash 384KB SRAM. > But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to being able to do more than > simply emulate a floppy. Definitely everything including the kitchen > sink type of MCU. > I'm struggling to see what this functionality would be. The Gotek isn't a general purpose dev board. It's pretty special purpose 34 pin header. Maybe there are features Keir would like to add to FF with more resources on the uC? Tony > --===============7907206391403296597==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jan 22 18:36:36 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 10:36:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6069983441955165573==" --===============6069983441955165573== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/22/23 09:30, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to being able to do more than >> simply emulate a floppy. Definitely everything including the kitchen >> sink type of MCU. >> > > I'm struggling to see what this functionality would be. The Gotek isn't a > general purpose dev board. It's pretty special purpose 34 pin header. > > Maybe there are features Keir would like to add to FF with more resources > on the uC? If the MCU is really just an ATF415, then you can forget all of the blue-sky stuff. It's little more powerful than the original STM32F105/107. It was difficult for me to understand why a howitzer like the 435 would be used in a simple floppy emulator. Apparently, contrary to what some say, it's not the case. --Chuck --===============6069983441955165573==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jan 22 18:39:25 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 10:38:57 -0800 Message-ID: <4e2492f8-5d9b-941e-28d1-2c84810d631f@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <93155e15-6ffe-e087-0b59-9cb7bd090e5e@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6838306471593717622==" --===============6838306471593717622== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/22/23 08:43, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 1/22/23 07:14, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was >> intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled >> people with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly >> linux fanatics, it's an indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There >> was a stint where I favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which >> is more natural and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications. > I use a trackball on all my computers.  Logitech works, but very > expensive.  I use Kensington version.  I do a lot of electronic CAD > work, and the mouse moves when I go to click a button.  That requires me > to have a death grip on the mouse, and that gives me carpal tunnel > symptoms.  You can take your fingers off the trackball before pressing > the buttons, then there is no cursor motion. When CT started to make my life miserable, I tried the Cirque pad as well as the C-H Products trackballs (still have them all). What made the difference for me was training my non-dominant hand to use the mouse. I still use a trackball where space is tight, however. --Chuck --===============6838306471593717622==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sun Jan 22 22:50:42 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 14:50:20 -0800 Message-ID: <002d01d92eb3$e91d3750$bb57a5f0$@net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580CEF1486C73F5CC0D8929EDCA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1868824422196342156==" --===============1868824422196342156== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Since the switchover I am getting more and more of my messages > rejected as suspected SPAM. Anyone else seeing this? >=20 > bill Same here bill. I contacted the new list owner and the response was pretty mu= ch tough cookies.... -Ali p.s. It would be interesting to see if this one makes it through! LOL. --===============1868824422196342156==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Sun Jan 22 22:53:11 2023 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:52:34 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002d01d92eb3$e91d3750$bb57a5f0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5998983588085334695==" --===============5998983588085334695== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We hear u loud and clear On Sun., Jan. 22, 2023, 4:50 p.m. Ali via cctalk, wrote: > > Since the switchover I am getting more and more of my messages > > rejected as suspected SPAM. Anyone else seeing this? > > > > bill > > Same here bill. I contacted the new list owner and the response was pretty > much tough cookies.... > > -Ali > > p.s. It would be interesting to see if this one makes it through! LOL. > > --===============5998983588085334695==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sun Jan 22 22:56:10 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:55:40 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1528571472261559111==" --===============1528571472261559111== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/22/2023 4:52 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > We hear u loud and clear > > On Sun., Jan. 22, 2023, 4:50 p.m. Ali via cctalk, > wrote: > >>> Since the switchover I am getting more and more of my messages >>> rejected as suspected SPAM. Anyone else seeing this? >>> >>> bill >> Same here bill. I contacted the new list owner and the response was pretty >> much tough cookies.... >> >> -Ali >> >> p.s. It would be interesting to see if this one makes it through! LOL. >> >> I'm glad I'm not the only one having rejections.  I noticed a resend tends to get it onto the list, which seems like a bogus filter (He's a spammer, DENY!... Um, he sent it again, I guess not, let it through...:-) Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============1528571472261559111==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sun Jan 22 23:00:33 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 15:00:09 -0800 Message-ID: <002e01d92eb5$476f1200$d64d3600$@net> In-Reply-To: <253747066.357155.1674393280887@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2139753810541014189==" --===============2139753810541014189== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I find touch pads > superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on > old Thinkpads.=20 I am the exact opposite. I love my track point. Hate touch pads. They take up= too much real estate, are consistently being touched inappropriately (see wh= at I did there... lol), and are hard to do multi click, and drag and drop ope= rations with them. Touch screens have their uses but I think they are very li= mited (i.e. works best in an app only environment where interaction is menu/c= hoice based). The younger generation would disagree... -Ali --===============2139753810541014189==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jan 22 23:03:16 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 15:02:34 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002e01d92eb5$476f1200$d64d3600$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1356097212332645905==" --===============1356097212332645905== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 3:00 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > I find touch pads > > superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on > > old Thinkpads. > > I am the exact opposite. I love my track point. Hate touch pads. They take > up too much real estate, are consistently being touched inappropriately > (see what I did there... lol), and are hard to do multi click, and drag and > drop operations with them. Touch screens have their uses but I think they > are very limited (i.e. works best in an app only environment where > interaction is menu/choice based). The younger generation would disagree... > Bring back the light pen! --===============1356097212332645905==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sun Jan 22 23:03:34 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 15:03:00 -0800 Message-ID: <002f01d92eb5$ad9f8050$08de80f0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2618955469830879004==" --===============2618955469830879004== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I'm glad I'm not the only one having rejections. I noticed a resend > tends to get it onto the list, which seems like a bogus filter (He's a > spammer, DENY!... Um, he sent it again, I guess not, let it > through...:-) >=20 Jim, My understanding on this is that the filter is based on IP address so if your= provider has a server name for their SMTP that maps to a number of IPs some = could be blocked while others are not. Today, I must be on a "clean" IP!=20 -Ali --===============2618955469830879004==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sun Jan 22 23:04:47 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 15:04:28 -0800 Message-ID: <003001d92eb5$e1a426d0$a4ec7470$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2422347495834538356==" --===============2422347495834538356== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > Bring back the light pen! Have you tried dragging and dropping in Excel with a light pen? OMG, never ag= ain ;) -Ali --===============2422347495834538356==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jan 22 23:13:25 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 15:12:49 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003001d92eb5$e1a426d0$a4ec7470$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6587266632163583549==" --===============6587266632163583549== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever actually used a light pen. Sellam On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 3:04 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > Bring back the light pen! > > Have you tried dragging and dropping in Excel with a light pen? OMG, never > again ;) > > -Ali > > --===============6587266632163583549==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jan 23 00:23:42 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HPE StorageWorks DAT 40 USB Tape Drive questions Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:23:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3e5d2a73-1b79-b9e7-c6c1-aed00aa5c419@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5113554498801477295==" --===============5113554498801477295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/21/23 11:20, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone used an HPE StorageWorks DAT 40 USB Tape Drive on a Mac / PC / > Linux as a "standard" tape drive (i.e., I want to be able to "dd" from one, > not use some HP provided backup package). (I have no interest in writing > to tapes, BTW) > > I'd prefer reading the tapes on a Mac, but if Linux/Win is needed, I'm > hoping I can use a virtual one :) I haven't tried it, as I don't have any USB DDS drives, but Linux should handle one, as the protocol is pretty much SCSI wrapped in USB messaging. FWIW, --Chuck --===============5113554498801477295==-- From ama@ugr.es Mon Jan 23 00:30:01 2023 From: Angel M Alganza To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 01:29:36 +0100 Message-ID: <814d9d894096f8ed81d6486b7f09c7d9@ugr.es> In-Reply-To: <002d01d92eb3$e91d3750$bb57a5f0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2990148696887730900==" --===============2990148696887730900== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-22 23:50, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> Since the switchover I am getting more and more of my messages >> rejected as suspected SPAM. Anyone else seeing this? > Same here bill. I contacted the new list owner and the response was > pretty much tough cookies.... This might be a very good thing for the list, if people start trimming quotes. Please don't try to un-toughen those cookies. :-) Ángel --===============2990148696887730900==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jan 23 00:53:21 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 19:52:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <814d9d894096f8ed81d6486b7f09c7d9@ugr.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2112738576685926809==" --===============2112738576685926809== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/22/23 19:29, Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-01-22 23:50, Ali via cctalk wrote: > >>> Since the switchover I am getting more and more of my messages >>> rejected as suspected SPAM.  Anyone else seeing this? > >> Same here bill. I contacted the new list owner and the response was >> pretty much tough cookies.... > > This might be a very good thing for the list, if people start trimming > quotes. Please don't try to un-toughen those cookies. :-) > Size had nothing to do with it. Both of mine that were rejected were trimmed down to just a couple lines. The more likely effect is lose of content. I don't usually try a second time and only resent one of those. Could result in people not commenting even when their input could be valuable. Or even leaving. bill --===============2112738576685926809==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 01:03:03 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives? Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 17:02:26 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7619036964577353187==" --===============7619036964577353187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Related to this thread, I just spotted this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/165728795134 Description: "New PCB To build a "Drawbridge" Adapter -- Allows use of a regular IBM Style 3.5" disk drive to copy and write Amiga format disks" I dig the "floppy disk" form-factor of the PCB sandwich. Sellam On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 10:36 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/22/23 09:30, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > > > But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to being able to do more than > >> simply emulate a floppy. Definitely everything including the kitchen > >> sink type of MCU. > >> > > > > I'm struggling to see what this functionality would be. The Gotek isn't > a > > general purpose dev board. It's pretty special purpose 34 pin header. > > > > Maybe there are features Keir would like to add to FF with more resources > > on the uC? > > If the MCU is really just an ATF415, then you can forget all of the > blue-sky stuff. It's little more powerful than the original > STM32F105/107. > > It was difficult for me to understand why a howitzer like the 435 would > be used in a simple floppy emulator. Apparently, contrary to what some > say, it's not the case. > > > --Chuck > > --===============7619036964577353187==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 23 04:53:07 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] And another real pdp11 is online...... Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 23:52:39 -0500 Message-ID: <2fd5c434-9358-a527-0de1-ca271479fe42@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6824387077432593569==" --===============6824387077432593569== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So... Here we go.... :-) For reference, TALOS is my pdp11/83 system from way back long ago. It's running real hardware, RX02, RL02, a 330mb ESDI disk, TK70, and 4mb of parity RAM. Runs with 2,000 blocks of cache, read-ahead of 5, and purrs along pretty nicely overall. The next step is to get 4mb of PMI memory as the 1mb board I have *is* faster than Q bus memory but there's not a lot I can do with DECnet and TCP/IP in only 1mb. But finally I can get to my system without an RS232 cable. And fix the time offset. But progress! (Now I need to back it up) Thank you Johnny for writing this code. Welcome to TALOS, an RSX-11M-PLUS system! >hello 1,1 Password: RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6 BL87 [1,54] System TALOS 23-JAN-2023 07:48 Logged on Terminal TT12: as SYS2 Good Morning ***************************************************************** * * * Welcome to RSX-11M-PLUS * * * * Version 4.6 Base level 87 * * This is file LB:[1,2]LOGIN.TXT * * * ***************************************************************** Last interactive login on Monday, January 23, 2023 21:37:35 (TT1:) > --===============6824387077432593569==-- From ama@ugr.es Mon Jan 23 07:36:24 2023 From: Angel M Alganza To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 08:35:55 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580ADED9B15EA7F5204D178EDC89=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3795183728254197258==" --===============3795183728254197258== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-23 01:52, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/22/23 19:29, Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: >> This might be a very good thing for the list, if people start trimming >> quotes. Please don't try to un-toughen those cookies. :-) > Size had nothing to do with it. Both of mine that were rejected were > trimmed down to just a couple lines. The more likely effect is lose > of content. I don't usually try a second time and only resent one of > those. Could result in people not commenting even when their input > could be valuable. Or even leaving. I know size has nothing to do, but probably links or excessive formatting might contribute. I still think that it'd be a good thing if quotes are trimmed and mail is better edited overall. I'm nobody and my opinion isn't very relevant, but I try to read every message on the list as far as I can understand or, sadly sometimes, when I can't make sense of what's new or relevant on a thread anymore. In those cases, I think we are better off without even receiving them, of course, IMO. Ángel --===============3795183728254197258==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 23 08:41:51 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 09:41:20 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580480EF7B45A9AA3E4C57AEDCA9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7410049602141606227==" --===============7410049602141606227== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Later today I plan to try FlashFloppy. My goal is to eventually > replace all of my mechanical floppies with solid state ones. Why would one want to do that? My goal would be the opposite. Upgrade all vintage computers with floppy drives ;-) My experience is that, if handled correctly, floppies are one of the most durable media, and they are definitely more fun on vintage equipment than any form of modern replacement. For exchanging data between the new and the old world, maybe it can be an option. But for classic computing? No way I would replace a floppy drive if it isn't broken. Christian --===============7410049602141606227==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 23 08:51:28 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 09:50:59 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3926853333071919270==" --===============3926853333071919270== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Tony Jones wrote: > No but I wish the list was configured differently so From: was the actual > sender with a Reply-To of the list. Plus of course ListId: > > Right now From: is "sender name via cc talk" which isn't unique since some > people just have a first name. Plus a Cc: sender email I've solved this problem with a simple procmail rule: ##### REPLYTO_=3D`formail -cXCc: | cut -d',' -f1 | sed -e 's/Cc: //' | sed -e 's/\"= /\\\"/g'` 0 fw * ^To:.*classiccmp|^Cc:.*classiccmp | sed -e 's/\[cctalk\] //g' | formail -i "From: $REPLYTO_" -i "Reply-To: Clas= sicCmp " -I "Cc:" ##### Christian --===============3926853333071919270==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 23 09:05:20 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:04:51 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000e01d92de0$c035dd20$40a19760$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6461501659767046419==" --===============6461501659767046419== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com wrote: > It depends. 1.2Mb drives write a narrower track so if you put in a 360 > or 640 disk in that?s already been written and write to it, then That's not correct, the "640" disk would also be 96tpi, so you can read and write it without issues in a standard 96tpi HD drive (in DD mode of course). Christian --===============6461501659767046419==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Mon Jan 23 09:14:51 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] And another real pdp11 is online...... Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 22:02:36 -0500 Message-ID: <53710e9c-541f-c5d3-625a-82f36ca7d677@beaker.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4761471185796519081==" --===============4761471185796519081== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So... Here we go.... :-) For reference, TALOS is my pdp11/83 system from way back long ago. It's running real hardware, RX02, RL02, a 330mb ESDI disk, TK70, and 4mb of parity RAM. Runs with 2,000 blocks of cache, read-ahead of 5, and purrs along pretty nicely overall. The next step is to get 4mb of PMI memory as the 1mb board I have *is* faster than Q bus memory but there's not a lot I can do with DECnet and TCP/IP in only 1mb. But finally I can get to my system without an RS232 cable. And fix the time offset. But progress! (Now I need to back it up) Thank you Johnny for writing this code. Welcome to TALOS, an RSX-11M-PLUS system! >hello 1,1 Password: RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6 BL87 [1,54] System TALOS 23-JAN-2023 07:48 Logged on Terminal TT12: as SYS2 Good Morning ***************************************************************** * * * Welcome to RSX-11M-PLUS * * * * Version 4.6 Base level 87 * * This is file LB:[1,2]LOGIN.TXT * * * ***************************************************************** Last interactive login on Monday, January 23, 2023 21:37:35 (TT1:) > --===============4761471185796519081==-- From knowak@alumni.calpoly.edu Mon Jan 23 09:15:13 2023 From: Kurt Nowak To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Sun 3/110 CPU board schematic? Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 20:23:47 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0277168923379797118==" --===============0277168923379797118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone by chance have a schematic for the 3/110 main board? Its been running great until recently where my framebuffer died. It boots right up to where it polls the cgfour and then stalls. I was hoping to do some troubleshooting. Thanks, Kurt --===============0277168923379797118==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 10:33:36 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: And another real pdp11 is online...... Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:33:10 +0000 Message-ID: <1805189966.584814.1674469990170@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd5c434-9358-a527-0de1-ca271479fe42@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5458727009373967409==" --===============5458727009373967409== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got this message twice, hours apart. And ... On Sunday, January 22, 2023, 11:52:48 PM EST, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: ***************************************************************** Last interactive login on Monday, January 23, 2023 21:37:35 (TT1:) > ... time and date are off by a day. =20 --===============5458727009373967409==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 23 13:09:26 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: And another real pdp11 is online...... Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 08:08:57 -0500 Message-ID: <1d1df938-7077-85a4-6101-51f30f058aba@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <1805189966.584814.1674469990170@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7940324946977794698==" --===============7940324946977794698== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That is a different problem. I'm phasing out my old alembic account, and=20 using beaker instead to send. So I sent it from beaker, probably went=20 into moderation, and then resent it from alembic. Need to figure out how this list handles address updates. Don't think=20 it's a majordomo list... CZ On 1/23/2023 5:33 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Got this message twice, hours apart. And ... >=20 > On Sunday, January 22, 2023, 11:52:48 PM EST, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > ***************************************************************** >=20 > Last interactive login on Monday, January 23, 2023 21:37:35 (TT1:) >=20 >> >=20 > ... time and date are off by a day. --===============7940324946977794698==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 14:03:33 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 09:02:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5135478282247561593==" --===============5135478282247561593== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Agreed; might as well just replace the whole system with an emulator while you're at it. m On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:41 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > Later today I plan to try FlashFloppy. My goal is to eventually > > replace all of my mechanical floppies with solid state ones. > > Why would one want to do that? > My goal would be the opposite. Upgrade all vintage computers with floppy > drives ;-) My experience is that, if handled correctly, floppies are one > of the most durable media, and they are definitely more fun on vintage > equipment than any form of modern replacement. For exchanging data between > the new and the old world, maybe it can be an option. But for classic > computing? No way I would replace a floppy drive if it isn't broken. > > Christian > --===============5135478282247561593==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jan 23 14:38:32 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 09:38:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4259813423884650544==" --===============4259813423884650544== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/23/2023 9:02 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Agreed; might as well just replace the whole system with an emulator while > you're at it. > > m > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:41 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> Later today I plan to try FlashFloppy. My goal is to eventually >>> replace all of my mechanical floppies with solid state ones. >> Why would one want to do that? >> My goal would be the opposite. Upgrade all vintage computers with floppy >> drives ;-) My experience is that, if handled correctly, floppies are one >> of the most durable media, and they are definitely more fun on vintage >> equipment than any form of modern replacement. For exchanging data between >> the new and the old world, maybe it can be an option. But for classic >> computing? No way I would replace a floppy drive if it isn't broken. >> >> Christian To each his own.  My interest is not in museum pieces that stand on a shelf and look pretty.  I like to actually work with them.  Mechanical disk drives are so old today they are prone to constant failure.  None of my original TRS-80 drives still function.  If I replace them with TEAC FD55's they are no longer original so what difference is there if I replace them with a GOTEK and USB Stick? And the disks themselves become unreliable with repeated use. The replacements also allow for trying things the mechanical disks are incapable of.  Like really large floppies with255 tracks. bill --===============4259813423884650544==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 15:20:51 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:20:13 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55808412C5F62AAC3EC497ECEDC89=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4402554718902586298==" --===============4402554718902586298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As you say, to each his/her own. But although mechanical devices are indeed more prone to issues, the same argument could be applied to the rest of the system; when your unobtainium PAL or LSI chip fails you'll probably replace it with a modern replacement. Just a question of where you choose to draw the line. Personally, I just spent some time this weekend reviving some obscure IMI hard drives that hadn't been run for at least 25 years and it was a real delight to not only get them going again but to discover that one had a functional OS installation on it that I thought I'd lost long ago. I suppose there's some of that the very first time you get your Gesswein emulator working, but it ain't the same thing. Another issue is that I have several hundred floppy disks, some with fairly rare stuff on them; maybe I'll get around to archiving them some day but in the meantime they're fairly safe on disk (unlike the box full of extremely rare Burroughs paper tapes that I threw out before I discovered that there are folks who are actually interested in that kind of old crap ;-) m On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 9:38 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 1/23/2023 9:02 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > Agreed; might as well just replace the whole system with an emulator > while > > you're at it. > > > > m > > > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:41 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>> Later today I plan to try FlashFloppy. My goal is to eventually > >>> replace all of my mechanical floppies with solid state ones. > >> Why would one want to do that? > >> My goal would be the opposite. Upgrade all vintage computers with floppy > >> drives ;-) My experience is that, if handled correctly, floppies are one > >> of the most durable media, and they are definitely more fun on vintage > >> equipment than any form of modern replacement. For exchanging data > between > >> the new and the old world, maybe it can be an option. But for classic > >> computing? No way I would replace a floppy drive if it isn't broken. > >> > >> Christian > > > To each his own. My interest is not in museum pieces that stand on a shelf > > and look pretty. I like to actually work with them. Mechanical disk > drives > > are so old today they are prone to constant failure. None of my > original TRS-80 > > drives still function. If I replace them with TEAC FD55's they are no > longer > > original so what difference is there if I replace them with a GOTEK and > USB Stick? > > And the disks themselves become unreliable with repeated use. The > replacements > > also allow for trying things the mechanical disks are incapable of. > Like really large > > floppies with255 tracks. > > > bill > > --===============4402554718902586298==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 16:08:12 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:07:44 -0500 Message-ID: <8e4d2593-2d23-89fc-ace7-5a8bb08676d3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5107407481024647723==" --===============5107407481024647723== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You've got that right!  I have a beautiful LSI 11/93 CPU board here given to me as defective.  Scoped the problem to bad output from a GAL! I don't think I will be able to find one of those anywhere unless i can find somebody with a board that has some other fatal flaw! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2023-01-23 10:20, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > As you say, to each his/her own. > > But although mechanical devices are indeed more prone to issues, the same > argument could be applied to the rest of the system; when your unobtainium > PAL or LSI chip fails you'll probably replace it with a modern replacement. > > Just a question of where you choose to draw the line. > > Personally, I just spent some time this weekend reviving some obscure IMI > hard drives that hadn't been run for at least 25 years and it was a real > delight to not only get them going again but to discover that one had a > functional OS installation on it that I thought I'd lost long ago. > > I suppose there's some of that the very first time you get your Gesswein > emulator working, but it ain't the same thing. > > Another issue is that I have several hundred floppy disks, some with fairly > rare stuff on them; maybe I'll get around to archiving them some day but in > the meantime they're fairly safe on disk (unlike the box full of extremely > rare Burroughs paper tapes that I threw out before I discovered that there > are folks who are actually interested in that kind of old crap ;-) > > m > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 9:38 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 1/23/2023 9:02 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >>> Agreed; might as well just replace the whole system with an emulator >> while >>> you're at it. >>> >>> m >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:41 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>> Later today I plan to try FlashFloppy. My goal is to eventually >>>>> replace all of my mechanical floppies with solid state ones. >>>> Why would one want to do that? >>>> My goal would be the opposite. Upgrade all vintage computers with floppy >>>> drives ;-) My experience is that, if handled correctly, floppies are one >>>> of the most durable media, and they are definitely more fun on vintage >>>> equipment than any form of modern replacement. For exchanging data >> between >>>> the new and the old world, maybe it can be an option. But for classic >>>> computing? No way I would replace a floppy drive if it isn't broken. >>>> >>>> Christian >> >> To each his own. My interest is not in museum pieces that stand on a shelf >> >> and look pretty. I like to actually work with them. Mechanical disk >> drives >> >> are so old today they are prone to constant failure. None of my >> original TRS-80 >> >> drives still function. If I replace them with TEAC FD55's they are no >> longer >> >> original so what difference is there if I replace them with a GOTEK and >> USB Stick? >> >> And the disks themselves become unreliable with repeated use. The >> replacements >> >> also allow for trying things the mechanical disks are incapable of. >> Like really large >> >> floppies with255 tracks. >> >> >> bill >> >> --===============5107407481024647723==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 23 16:17:54 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:17:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1512812608077674368==" --===============1512812608077674368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's the classic "ship of Thesus" argument. And a 2,000 year old debate is not going to be solved on this list. I've developed a "knack" for keeping my RX50 and TK70 drives working here, most of the problems are due to them being 30-40 years old and basic things like lubrication drying out and glue falling apart so pads fall off. At some point the media is just going to start peeling apart... Now for true insanity one should try to fix a TU58 Dectape II system. Mine is a mess even with the pucks and belts replaced it still doesn't work. Anyone got a working one? They make the ultimate swap drive. C On 1/23/2023 10:20 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > As you say, to each his/her own. > > But although mechanical devices are indeed more prone to issues, the same > argument could be applied to the rest of the system; when your unobtainium > PAL or LSI chip fails you'll probably replace it with a modern replacement. --===============1512812608077674368==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Jan 23 16:37:34 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:37:08 -0600 Message-ID: <52dcf53e-a3c2-7260-cee9-969d66a80e38@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1122382360490003719==" --===============1122382360490003719== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/23/2023 10:17 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > It's the classic "ship of Thesus" argument. And a 2,000 year old > debate is not going to be solved on this list. Though the comments started with an absolute (replacing all drives with Goteks), I assume many of us take a more pragmatic approach.  As such, I do take a bit of issue with the "where do you stop" concern raised by another poster. I have all 3 here. * I have emulators for many of the machines I own, because often, answering a question can be best/fastest done that way * I have "need to get things done on this" machines, where problematic components are replaced by contemporary equivalents. I know I'm a "young un" on this list of Mini computer owners, but al most all of my daily driver home computers have their floppy drives replaced by SD card or USB equivalents.  Because, when I want to enjoy firing up an app or game, I want to enjoy the game/app, not spend an hour/day/week diagnosing and fixing the system.  I also use these to demonstrate the units for interested visitors, and these are the machines I take to show to demo and such * I have all stock machines, because, sometimes, only the original will do.  Validating specific behavior for emulator writers, checking failure modes on certain apps, understanding actual latency/delays associated with original equipment, etc. These units are used for even the mundane efforts of determining PCB sizes or heights for folks who wish to build add-ons and such. I can't imagine I am the only one of the list with this setup (though I do understand having a daily driver PDP 11 and an all stock PDP 11 might be un-realistic, and so that owner has to make the decision on how to keep the machine configured.) But, for all the smaller units, I must be in a larger community who does this. So, while I don't have the same goal as the OP in replacing all drives with Goteks, I honestly do have that configured already for all my daily/weekly use machines. I lost no existential sleep over doing that. In the spirit of the original thought, though, where I find myself scratching my head are the folks who have replaced every IC on their vintage system with an aftermarket FPGA "equivalent" (loosely used here).  The resulting board, with all of the expensive FPGA devices, costs much more than obtaining a second stock unit, and when every IC has been replaced with FPGA, I am not sure I see the value over just obtaining an FPGA-based design where all of the IC functionality has been aggregated into 1 larger HDL-based device. The "keyhole" nature of replacing each individual IC seems expensive, prone to issues, and still relies on constraints of the original motherboard and/or mobo design. But, I smile and nod when I see them at shows, since it must make sense to the owner, and that's how they enjoy the hobby. Jim --===============1122382360490003719==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Mon Jan 23 16:45:25 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 08:44:43 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55808412C5F62AAC3EC497ECEDC89=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1425008785271904371==" --===============1425008785271904371== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 6:38 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > To each his own. My interest is not in museum pieces that stand on a shelf > > and look pretty. I like to actually work with them. Mechanical disk > drives > > are so old today they are prone to constant failure. I replaced the floppy in my Fluke 9100A with a Gotek. The hard drive with a SCSI2SD. It greatly enhanced it's usability. Why? For the reasons you state. It's not a museum piece. Also they are not destructive changes. The original devices can be reattached if needed. I'm surprised at the "why would you do that" and "you may as well just use an emulator" comments. Unfortunate. Tony --===============1425008785271904371==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 23 16:46:38 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:46:12 -0500 Message-ID: <8fb886b5-e1a4-0152-3145-0d49d258fe3a@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <52dcf53e-a3c2-7260-cee9-969d66a80e38@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8743810772894592945==" --===============8743810772894592945== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I have all 3 here. Agreed. As an example, on my Sun386i's I had three blown power supplies. All three failed due to the "donkey engine" power supply that booted up the main power supply logic with a 300v to 12 volt system that quite honestly was badly engineered garbage. Rather than replace all the bad components (and have it fail again in 20 years) I simply put in a small 300 volt to 12 volt DC-DC converter. Problem solved, supply works, life is great. Is it a valid repair? Yes. Is it not "100% original" nope, and I don't care too much. However one of the supplies was a total wreck from someone else trying to fix it so I guttted it and installed a modern PC-AT supply that provided +5,+12,-12,-5, and supply good signals. Is it a valid repair? Yes. It's pretty much 0% original but it works perfectly. Now the question of "what to do with these things" is another issue :-) C > > * I have emulators for many of the machines I own, because often, > answering a question can be best/fastest done that way > > * I have "need to get things done on this" machines, where problematic > components are replaced by contemporary equivalents. I know I'm a "young > un" on this list of Mini computer owners, but al most all of my daily > driver home computers have their floppy drives replaced by SD card or > USB equivalents.  Because, when I want to enjoy firing up an app or > game, I want to enjoy the game/app, not spend an hour/day/week > diagnosing and fixing the system.  I also use these to demonstrate the > units for interested visitors, and these are the machines I take to show > to demo and such > > * I have all stock machines, because, sometimes, only the original will > do.  Validating specific behavior for emulator writers, checking failure > modes on certain apps, understanding actual latency/delays associated > with original equipment, etc. These units are used for even the mundane > efforts of determining PCB sizes or heights for folks who wish to build > add-ons and such. > > I can't imagine I am the only one of the list with this setup (though I > do understand having a daily driver PDP 11 and an all stock PDP 11 might > be un-realistic, and so that owner has to make the decision on how to > keep the machine configured.) > > But, for all the smaller units, I must be in a larger community who does > this. > > So, while I don't have the same goal as the OP in replacing all drives > with Goteks, I honestly do have that configured already for all my > daily/weekly use machines. I lost no existential sleep over doing that. > > In the spirit of the original thought, though, where I find myself > scratching my head are the folks who have replaced every IC on their > vintage system with an aftermarket FPGA "equivalent" (loosely used > here).  The resulting board, with all of the expensive FPGA devices, > costs much more than obtaining a second stock unit, and when every IC > has been replaced with FPGA, I am not sure I see the value over just > obtaining an FPGA-based design where all of the IC functionality has > been aggregated into 1 larger HDL-based device. The "keyhole" nature of > replacing each individual IC seems expensive, prone to issues, and still > relies on constraints of the original motherboard and/or mobo design. > But, I smile and nod when I see them at shows, since it must make sense > to the owner, and that's how they enjoy the hobby. > > Jim > --===============8743810772894592945==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Mon Jan 23 16:53:16 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 08:52:40 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <52dcf53e-a3c2-7260-cee9-969d66a80e38@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2684718385986814136==" --===============2684718385986814136== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 8:37 AM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > In the spirit of the original thought, though, where I find myself > scratching my head are the folks who have replaced every IC on their > vintage system with an aftermarket FPGA "equivalent" (loosely used > here). People do all kinds of things I find strange. The list is endless. I'm self aware enough to realize that others likely find my decisions and passions strange. I've learned after 35 years on the Internet that's it's fine to think "that's odd" and pretty pointless and sometimes counterproductive to publicly opine on it :-) > --===============2684718385986814136==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 16:54:01 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:53:33 +0000 Message-ID: <875523468.716530.1674492813254@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <8fb886b5-e1a4-0152-3145-0d49d258fe3a@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2470422245792934619==" --===============2470422245792934619== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reminds me of the p/s in the Mindset. One could not rule out it catching on = fire. I got a beat up MS years ago. The first time I plugged it in it blew th= e breakers. =20 --===============2470422245792934619==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Mon Jan 23 17:03:41 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:03:16 -0500 Message-ID: <94262221-05e2-aff6-a26a-5d2c4b4b0bc7@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: <52dcf53e-a3c2-7260-cee9-969d66a80e38@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5915056815982750667==" --===============5915056815982750667== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-23 11:37, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > In the spirit of the original thought, though, where I find myself > scratching my head are the folks who have replaced every IC on their > vintage system with an aftermarket FPGA "equivalent" (loosely used > here).  The resulting board, with all of the expensive FPGA devices, > costs much more than obtaining a second stock unit, and when every IC > has been replaced with FPGA, I am not sure I see the value over just > obtaining an FPGA-based design where all of the IC functionality has > been aggregated into 1 larger HDL-based device. The "keyhole" nature of > replacing each individual IC seems expensive, prone to issues, and still > relies on constraints of the original motherboard and/or mobo design. > But, I smile and nod when I see them at shows, since it must make sense > to the owner, and that's how they enjoy the hobby. For me, it is a way to make sure, I understood the original machine/chip. If you can replace the original chip with an CPLD/FPGA, you probably have an idea, what you're talking about. Same with emulators. But, I'm talking about guys doing it, not using it :) --===============5915056815982750667==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Mon Jan 23 17:04:55 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 09:04:21 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8002602046545309206==" --===============8002602046545309206== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 12:51 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Tony Jones wrote: > > No but I wish the list was configured differently so From: was the actual > > sender with a Reply-To of the list. Plus of course ListId: > > > > Right now From: is "sender name via cc talk" which isn't unique since > some > > people just have a first name. Plus a Cc: sender email > > I've solved this problem with a simple procmail rule: > > ##### > REPLYTO_=`formail -cXCc: | cut -d',' -f1 | sed -e 's/Cc: //' | sed -e > 's/\"/\\\"/g'` > > 0 fw > * ^To:.*classiccmp|^Cc:.*classiccmp > | sed -e 's/\[cctalk\] //g' | formail -i "From: $REPLYTO_" -i "Reply-To: > ClassicCmp " -I "Cc:" > ##### > The issue is that Gmail filtering isn't great at filtering the list, the way it's setup. A lot of people use it. Clicking to block the sender blocks the entire list. Creating custom filters is somewhat in exact due to the odd way the listsrv is configured. Procmail, sure but .... > --===============8002602046545309206==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 17:22:33 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] any COCO enthusiasts Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:22:06 +0000 Message-ID: <1397818965.744116.1674494526775@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1397818965.744116.1674494526775.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1842364474597328814==" --===============1842364474597328814== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't even remember signing up for the RetroAbout64K mailing list. I haven'= t seen any actual dicussion in my remembrance. But I do get once or twice a w= eek an email about COCO Nation or some such. Sounds like a hot chocolate enth= usiasts group seeking world domination. Anyway I've had COCOs going back. Or = 1 that I scarfed from a friend for 20$ (back in 89 I think). I realize it has= a 6809 and all, the successor to the venerable 6800. But what can you do wit= h the things? Is there even a color output, despite the name. I can't remembe= r. I only remember playing Dungeons of Daggorath or whatever. The guy I bough= t it from claimed he programmed a complex naval similation. Yeah whatever. --===============1842364474597328814==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Jan 23 17:45:44 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: any COCO enthusiasts Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:45:17 -0600 Message-ID: <730740c9-6d7a-5a16-14cd-15441ee7fd1c@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <1397818965.744116.1674494526775@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3507734185771597526==" --===============3507734185771597526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/23/2023 11:22 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I don't even remember signing up for the RetroAbout64K mailing list. I have= n't seen any actual dicussion in my remembrance. But I do get once or twice a= week an email about COCO Nation or some such. Sounds like a hot chocolate en= thusiasts group seeking world domination. Anyway I've had COCOs going back. O= r 1 that I scarfed from a friend for 20$ (back in 89 I think). I realize it h= as a 6809 and all, the successor to the venerable 6800. But what can you do w= ith the things? Is there even a color output, despite the name. I can't remem= ber. I only remember playing Dungeons of Daggorath or whatever. The guy I bou= ght it from claimed he programmed a complex naval similation. Yeah whatever. The CoCo uses the 6847, so color is available.=C2=A0 (CoCo3 uses an AsIC that= =20 supports much of the 6847 capabilities, but adds in more resolution, RGB=20 output, and more colors in those resolutions). The 6809 runs OS9, so there's that. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============3507734185771597526==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 17:51:48 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: any COCO enthusiasts Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:51:21 +0000 Message-ID: <1523487016.756853.1674496281096@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <730740c9-6d7a-5a16-14cd-15441ee7fd1c@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4376447379967840235==" --===============4376447379967840235== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I never knew there was a 6847. The 6545 used in the TI Pro is compatible to = whatever degree with the 6845 despite producing 100 more lines of revolution.= The 6847 not so. =20 --===============4376447379967840235==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Jan 23 17:54:14 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: any COCO enthusiasts Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:53:39 -0600 Message-ID: <5d28f485-4a8a-248b-4f24-49b113b61928@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <1397818965.744116.1674494526775@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1690809091628722728==" --===============1690809091628722728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The original coco had an MC6809E processor (a slight variation of the=20 MC6809 processor), a MC6883 Synchronous Address Multiplexer and a MC6847=20 Graphics Chip. The 6883 SAM was the "glue" that provided all of the timing and address=20 decoding for the entire system.=C2=A0 To reduce flicker the 6847 and 6809E=20 memory accesses were alternate cycled.=C2=A0 This means that they used=20 opposite edges of the Phase 1 clock=C2=A0 to access memory. However, this=20 meant running the system at .8949 MHz.=C2=A0 The SAM had the ability to run=20 the CPU at twice that speed but this resulted in the video being disabled. The 6883 SAM could address up to 96K of memory but to populate that much=20 memory required after market modifications. There are many programs and peripherals available for the Color=20 Computer.=C2=A0 The floppy disk system used 5 1/4" diskettes and could run=20 operating systems like Flex, Star DOS and OS/9 Level 1.=C2=A0 I don't recall = if OS/9 Level II was ported to the Color Computer. I believe there was even some kind of hard disk drive interface=20 available, though not from Tandy IIRC. The audio cassette interface used 1200Hz/2400Hz tones to represent ones=20 and zeros. There are many Color Computer enthusiast groups all over the country and=20 people still make add-ons and software for it. Please just google Tandy Color Computer. On 1/23/2023 11:22 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I don't even remember signing up for the RetroAbout64K mailing list. I have= n't seen any actual dicussion in my remembrance. But I do get once or twice a= week an email about COCO Nation or some such. Sounds like a hot chocolate en= thusiasts group seeking world domination. Anyway I've had COCOs going back. O= r 1 that I scarfed from a friend for 20$ (back in 89 I think). I realize it h= as a 6809 and all, the successor to the venerable 6800. But what can you do w= ith the things? Is there even a color output, despite the name. I can't remem= ber. I only remember playing Dungeons of Daggorath or whatever. The guy I bou= ght it from claimed he programmed a complex naval similation. Yeah whatever. --===============1690809091628722728==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 17:57:14 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:56:37 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002e01d92eb5$476f1200$d64d3600$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3848555961465811548==" --===============3848555961465811548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 00:00, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > I am the exact opposite. I love my track point. Agreed. Trackpads are tolerable, but I preferred the era of trackballs. But if my laptop is on my actual lap, I turn off the trackpad and just use the trackpoint. Easier, less arm and hand movement, keeps your hands on the keyboard, and generally less hassle. I find it interesting watching people using trackpads. Most don't know *how* to use them effectively. The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right movements. Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but acceptably. Which I think is also the point about MS Office 2007 and later. Before, with menus and toolbars, it was efficient once you memorised the layout of the menus and the hotkeys, and you could customise the toolbars as you saw fit. (I used to place them vertically at left and right of the workspace, add a bunch of my own buttons, remove some, and then I worked out it was quicker to memorise the hotkeys and just hide the toolbars completely.) I speedread. Recently someone on lobste.rs expressed incredulity I'd read a 5000 word article in 5 minutes. For me that is not even hurrying. Menus are fast. Most people can't read that fast, and can't memorise a complex menu layout. So for most people, the horrible ribbon introduced in Office 2007 is easier. They can't read fast, they lack comprehension, and so they search, every time, looking at groups of icons and then within them. For youngsters this is preferable. For grumpy old gits like me, it's worse. *MUCH* worse. I find Office 2007 & later unusable. I can't even put the big fat waste of space vertical. So, I keep some old copies of Office around, and I use LibreOffice and other tools. For now, I have the choice. But modern versions of Windows and Linux are removing menu bars, which are an old-people tool, and replacing them with icons and visual controls. For me, idiot lights, for idiots. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3848555961465811548==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jan 23 18:11:11 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 13:10:42 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7181464602355930024==" --===============7181464602355930024== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 23, 2023, at 12:56 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 00:00, Ali via cctalk wrot= e: >>=20 >> I am the exact opposite. I love my track point. >=20 > Agreed. >=20 > Trackpads are tolerable, but I preferred the era of trackballs. But if > my laptop is on my actual lap, I turn off the trackpad and just use > the trackpoint. Easier, less arm and hand movement, keeps your hands > on the keyboard, and generally less hassle. Clearly what we have in this discussion is "different strokes for different f= olks". I once had a laptop with a small trackball in the front edge. It was somewha= t tolerable on the desk, not so much on the lap. I also once had an IBM laptop with the "eraser stick" thingie in the middle o= f the keyboard. I turned it back in after a few weeks and demanded some othe= r model, any model so long as it didn't have that device. Personally, I like trackpads. But my wife doesn't. And clearly there are lo= ts of opinions. Pick what you like, don't be surprised if others have differ= ent preferences. Are large trackballs (with balls the size of a golfball or larger) still arou= nd? I remember a few people around the office that had one. I also remember= seeing all the air traffic controller stations at the local FAA control cent= er equipped with such trackballs. That made some sense, it allows the operat= or to work in a confined space without having to worry about keeping a clear = desk surface. That was before touchpads were invented, 1990s I think. > I find it interesting watching people using trackpads. Most don't know > *how* to use them effectively. >=20 > The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large > pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your > fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the > finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or > toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right > movements. >=20 > Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it > by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but > acceptably. Interesting. It doesn't seem to apply to my Mac touchpad. Or maybe only if = I run Linux on that hardware, that seems to have a different sensitivity sett= ing. paul --===============7181464602355930024==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Jan 23 18:11:52 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: any COCO enthusiasts Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:11:26 -0600 Message-ID: <6ffdd864-475c-96ec-7705-9f912e58026b@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <5d28f485-4a8a-248b-4f24-49b113b61928@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2232589066613854995==" --===============2232589066613854995== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/23/2023 11:53 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > The 6883 SAM was the "glue" that provided all of the timing and > address decoding for the entire system.  To reduce flicker the 6847 > and 6809E memory accesses were alternate cycled.  This means that they > used opposite edges of the Phase 1 clock  to access memory. However, > this meant running the system at .8949 MHz.  The SAM had the ability > to run the CPU at twice that speed but this resulted in the video > being disabled. Are you sure about that?  The system could be sped up, which involved not refreshing DRAM, but all of the support ICs and the DRAMs are 1MHz, so I don't think 2MHz was possible on the CoCo, at least. > > > There are many programs and peripherals available for the Color > Computer.  The floppy disk system used 5 1/4" diskettes and could run > operating systems like Flex, Star DOS and OS/9 Level 1.  I don't > recall if OS/9 Level II was ported to the Color Computer. Yes, it was, but only for the CC3, which had an MMU (don't shoot the messenger, that's what Radio Shack called it) and 128kB of DRAM, with an option to expand to 512kB. The source has been open sourced and extended as "NitrOS9", and there's a current "Ease of Use" edition that can be loaded from a CoCoSDC and also has 6309 extensions for faster operation. > > I believe there was even some kind of hard disk drive interface > available, though not from Tandy IIRC. GlensideIDE, sold in the day by the still active Glenside Color Computer Club (GCCC) in Chicago, IL. Also, Cloud9's SuperIDE was also sold.  There was a "Burke and Burke" HDD interface that consisted of an adapter, an ISA MFM card (as I recall), and an MFM drive > > > Please just google Tandy Color Computer. Yep. THere's a half dozen FB group, a Discord Channel, and a mailing list. Jim --===============2232589066613854995==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Mon Jan 23 18:20:29 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:19:53 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0378508283909743001==" --===============0378508283909743001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 10:10 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Personally, I like trackpads. But my wife doesn't. And clearly there are > lots of opinions. Pick what you like, don't be surprised if others have > different preferences. > I love my Kensington Expert Mouse, which is actually a trackball. It and a Happy Hacking Pro keyboard fits onto my Humanscale 4G keyboard tray. It was a conscious effort to limit the amount of arm movement. Quite a few of my Linux colleagues use no mouse at all, all keyboard shortcuts. My wife cannot operate the trackball at all but it's all down to ramp up effort which is why I've never been able to adapt to one of the ergonomic split keyboards or Emacs :) Tony > > Are large trackballs (with balls the size of a golfball or larger) still > around? I remember a few people around the office that had one. I also > remember seeing all the air traffic controller stations at the local FAA > control center equipped with such trackballs. That made some sense, it > allows the operator to work in a confined space without having to worry > about keeping a clear desk surface. That was before touchpads were > invented, 1990s I think. > > > I find it interesting watching people using trackpads. Most don't know > > *how* to use them effectively. > > > > The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large > > pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your > > fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the > > finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or > > toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right > > movements. > > > > Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it > > by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but > > acceptably. > > Interesting. It doesn't seem to apply to my Mac touchpad. Or maybe only > if I run Linux on that hardware, that seems to have a different sensitivity > setting. > > paul > > --===============0378508283909743001==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 23 18:26:56 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:26:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8fb886b5-e1a4-0152-3145-0d49d258fe3a@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6250575376996583676==" --===============6250575376996583676== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Chris Zach wrote: > Is it a valid repair? Yes. Is it not "100% original" nope, and I don't care > too much. However one of the supplies was a total wreck from someone else Replacing a failed and possibly unrepairable component is something different than changing working parts with newer ones "just because I like the modern ones more". Then, I would not be in classic computing but just in "running old equipment". Christian --===============6250575376996583676==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 18:31:44 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:31:08 +0000 Message-ID: <572760650.765247.1674498668032@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3983509803406452604==" --===============3983509803406452604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've never ever heard anyone state they like Goteks better then floppy drive= s. The media is difficult to find in a usable state. That puts a big crimp on= any joy you may obtain from using original equipment. Hence people opt for t= he next best thing. Which offers a number of conveniences I'll add. On Mo= nday, January 23, 2023, 01:26:40 PM EST, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Chris Zach wrote: > Is it a valid repair? Yes. Is it not "100% original" nope, and I don't care= =20 > too much. However one of the supplies was a total wreck from someone else Replacing a failed and possibly unrepairable component is something=20 different than changing working parts with newer ones "just because I like=20 the modern ones more". Then, I would not be in classic computing but just=20 in "running old equipment". Christian =20 --===============3983509803406452604==-- From marvin@west.net Mon Jan 23 18:50:00 2023 From: Marvin Johnston To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: any COCO enthusiasts Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:49:43 -0800 Message-ID: <0aa6b8b6-1295-9470-fff2-9942a704c7cc@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1527402986412647336==" --===============1527402986412647336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As to what can you do with it? A local company was running a homemade NC drill using the (IIRC) Coco 2 with a pair of disk drives to drive the thing. I bought it for kicks, but never used it. To ask another similar question, I have a tektronix 2 axis controller that uses paper tape. Changing the questions slightly, WHY would I use such a thing? And ditto for an Intel software development system. I have more than enough nostalgia items to keep me busy for the next hundred years or so :). > Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:22:06 +0000 (UTC) From: > skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com Subject: [cctalk] any COCO enthusiasts > I don't even remember signing up for the RetroAbout64K mailing list. > I haven't seen any actual dicussion in my remembrance. But I do get > once or twice a week an email about COCO Nation or some such. Sounds > like a hot chocolate enthusiasts group seeking world domination. > Anyway I've had COCOs going back. Or 1 that I scarfed from a friend > for 20$ (back in 89 I think). I realize it has a 6809 and all, the > successor to the venerable 6800. But what can you do with the things? > Is there even a color output, despite the name. I can't remember. I > only remember playing Dungeons of Daggorath or whatever. The guy I > bought it from claimed he programmed a complex naval similation. Yeah > whatever. --===============1527402986412647336==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 19:00:49 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 13:59:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <572760650.765247.1674498668032@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1155158198309661393==" --===============1155158198309661393== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think one thing that this discussion demonstrates is the point of the original post, namely that there are many different reasons for participating in this hobby and to each their own.. Let's face it, most of us have trouble justifying the time and money we spend for whatever reason on what is essentially useless obsolete junk to anyone outside our community. At one end are the purists like the antique car crowd, where every last screw has to be original, while at the other end are folks like Jim who are more pragmatic and mainly just interested in getting something done (and who incidentally designs and sells a lot of the adapters etc. that let us replace parts like a hard to find and program replacement for a 2332 ROM with a 2732 for example). Thanks for your many contributions BTW, Jim, especially in the Commodore world but much also applicable elsewhere. /Soapbox on/ What I find a little disappointing is the judgement implied in the "I can't understand why in the world anybody would do that" posts; we're all part of the same community, mostly helping each other regardless of our different perspectives, so instead of judging or arguing let's just respect each other's views of the vintage computer world. Who knows, we may actually learn to 'understand why' ;-) /Soapbox off/ m On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 1:31 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > I've never ever heard anyone state they like Goteks better then floppy > drives. The media is difficult to find in a usable state. That puts a big > crimp on any joy you may obtain from using original equipment. Hence people > opt for the next best thing. Which offers a number of conveniences I'll > add. On Monday, January 23, 2023, 01:26:40 PM EST, Christian Corti via > cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Chris Zach wrote: > > Is it a valid repair? Yes. Is it not "100% original" nope, and I don't > care > > too much. However one of the supplies was a total wreck from someone else > > Replacing a failed and possibly unrepairable component is something > different than changing working parts with newer ones "just because I like > the modern ones more". Then, I would not be in classic computing but just > in "running old equipment". > > Christian > --===============1155158198309661393==-- From spam@hell.org Mon Jan 23 19:01:37 2023 From: Mike Begley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:01:10 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <52dcf53e-a3c2-7260-cee9-969d66a80e38@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8560039237685729548==" --===============8560039237685729548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a lot of ways it's entirely contextual, or a matter of practicality. If t= he goal is to just get the original operator/software experience, then emulat= ors should do the trick. If it's about the original feel of the hardware, wi= th all its limitations and warts, then stock hardware is the way to go. For = components that fail and are hard to replace, then FPGAs are cool, and it's f= un to see how far they can be tweaked using modern hardware and design sensib= ilities. For DECVax stuff, I just use an emulator on a pi because anything larger than= the smallest VAXen are way too power and space consumptive to be at all prac= tical. I used to have a VAXStation 2000 that might be reasonable to keep pow= ered up 24/7, but other than that and maybe some of the desktop VAXen it's ju= st silly to keep them running unless you're a well-funded museum willing to b= uy carbon offsets. For my HP 9000 stuff, it's all straight original hardware, although I'm diskl= ess and just do netbooting of NetBSD off a PC. My Tektronix 4132 is still ru= nning on its original 40mb hard disk. I have a few fully stock Atari 800s, and one I'm in the process of fully maxi= ng out with modern upgrades, because it's fun to see how far the machine can = be taken while maintaining the original hardware. But I like to keep a fully= stock machine around as well. Right now, I'm going back and forth on an IMSAI I am restoring. Part of me w= ants to do as slavishly accurate a restoration as I can, but the another part= insists that there really is no such thing, really, as the whole culture aro= und S100 was about taking the bus and extending it in a myriad of ways. I'll= probably fall somewhere in the middle, but if I could ever find a CCS Z80 ma= in board I would probably switch to that and put the original IMSAI 8080 MPU = board into storage. I had a CCS machine back in the day and just found that = to be really solid hardware with a good onboard monitor for debugging. BTW -= if anyone has an IMSAI MIO board they are with (or a CCS z80 MPU board), ple= ase contact me! Replacing "doomed to fail" components like hard disks, or even potential time= bombs like capacitors & batteries just makes sense. But when something beco= mes way too far afield from the original specs, it does kind of defeat the pu= rpose, from my point of view. I view it as akin to classic car restoration v= s hot rodding. They're both different perspectives on the same machinery, an= d there's value & intersections between both sides of the community from whic= h each side can benefit. -mike ________________________________ From: Jim Brain via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 23, 2023 8:37 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Jim Brain Subject: [cctalk] Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses Greas= eWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) On 1/23/2023 10:17 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > It's the classic "ship of Thesus" argument. And a 2,000 year old > debate is not going to be solved on this list. Though the comments started with an absolute (replacing all drives with Goteks), I assume many of us take a more pragmatic approach. As such, I do take a bit of issue with the "where do you stop" concern raised by another poster. I have all 3 here. * I have emulators for many of the machines I own, because often, answering a question can be best/fastest done that way * I have "need to get things done on this" machines, where problematic components are replaced by contemporary equivalents. I know I'm a "young un" on this list of Mini computer owners, but al most all of my daily driver home computers have their floppy drives replaced by SD card or USB equivalents. Because, when I want to enjoy firing up an app or game, I want to enjoy the game/app, not spend an hour/day/week diagnosing and fixing the system. I also use these to demonstrate the units for interested visitors, and these are the machines I take to show to demo and such * I have all stock machines, because, sometimes, only the original will do. Validating specific behavior for emulator writers, checking failure modes on certain apps, understanding actual latency/delays associated with original equipment, etc. These units are used for even the mundane efforts of determining PCB sizes or heights for folks who wish to build add-ons and such. I can't imagine I am the only one of the list with this setup (though I do understand having a daily driver PDP 11 and an all stock PDP 11 might be un-realistic, and so that owner has to make the decision on how to keep the machine configured.) But, for all the smaller units, I must be in a larger community who does this. So, while I don't have the same goal as the OP in replacing all drives with Goteks, I honestly do have that configured already for all my daily/weekly use machines. I lost no existential sleep over doing that. In the spirit of the original thought, though, where I find myself scratching my head are the folks who have replaced every IC on their vintage system with an aftermarket FPGA "equivalent" (loosely used here). The resulting board, with all of the expensive FPGA devices, costs much more than obtaining a second stock unit, and when every IC has been replaced with FPGA, I am not sure I see the value over just obtaining an FPGA-based design where all of the IC functionality has been aggregated into 1 larger HDL-based device. The "keyhole" nature of replacing each individual IC seems expensive, prone to issues, and still relies on constraints of the original motherboard and/or mobo design. But, I smile and nod when I see them at shows, since it must make sense to the owner, and that's how they enjoy the hobby. Jim --===============8560039237685729548==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 19:14:26 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 14:13:47 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <572760650.765247.1674498668032@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5517718135008330763==" --===============5517718135008330763== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the issue of finding media tends to be a little overstated. I offered some 8" diskettes a while back and didn't have a single inquiry, and there doesn't seem to be a real shortage of other sizes either if you don't mind sorting through used ones; even paper and mylar tape seem to still be available. When it comes to parts I often read complaints that a certain IC or part is unobtainium when a quick look on ebay or even Amazon will find a dozen listings; some people get satisfaction from finding parts or documentation that no one else could and sharing with the community. As to the reliability of mechanical devices, again, to each his/her own; what is a frustrating experience for someone trying to get something done is an opportunity for someone else to repair it and get that satisfaction. At least, unlike some mysterious custom IC you can see what the problem is and repair it. m On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 1:31 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > I've never ever heard anyone state they like Goteks better then floppy > drives. The media is difficult to find in a usable state. That puts a big > crimp on any joy you may obtain from using original equipment. Hence people > opt for the next best thing. Which offers a number of conveniences I'll > add. On Monday, January 23, 2023, 01:26:40 PM EST, Christian Corti via > cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Chris Zach wrote: > > Is it a valid repair? Yes. Is it not "100% original" nope, and I don't > care > > too much. However one of the supplies was a total wreck from someone else > > Replacing a failed and possibly unrepairable component is something > different than changing working parts with newer ones "just because I like > the modern ones more". Then, I would not be in classic computing but just > in "running old equipment". > > Christian > --===============5517718135008330763==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Jan 23 19:23:42 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: any COCO enthusiasts Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 13:23:13 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0aa6b8b6-1295-9470-fff2-9942a704c7cc@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6894852120560912805==" --===============6894852120560912805== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OS/9 is a multi users, multitasking operating system. There are many applications and video games and many programming languages available for the 6809 (C, Basic, Basic09, Forth, Assembler, Lisp, etc). On 1/23/2023 12:49 PM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > > As to what can you do with it? A local company was running a homemade NC > drill using the (IIRC) Coco 2 with a pair of disk drives to drive the > thing. I bought it for kicks, but never used it. > > To ask another similar question, I have a tektronix 2 axis controller > that uses paper tape. Changing the questions slightly, WHY would I use > such a thing? And ditto for an Intel software development system. > > I have more than enough nostalgia items to keep me busy for the next > hundred years or so :). > > >> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:22:06 +0000 (UTC) From: >> skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com Subject: [cctalk] any COCO enthusiasts > > >> I don't even remember signing up for the RetroAbout64K mailing list. >> I haven't seen any actual dicussion in my remembrance. But I do get >> once or twice a week an email about COCO Nation or some such. Sounds >> like a hot chocolate enthusiasts group seeking world domination. >> Anyway I've had COCOs going back. Or 1 that I scarfed from a friend >> for 20$ (back in 89 I think). I realize it has a 6809 and all, the >> successor to the venerable 6800. But what can you do with the things? >> Is there even a color output, despite the name. I can't remember. I >> only remember playing Dungeons of Daggorath or whatever. The guy I >> bought it from claimed he programmed a complex naval similation. Yeah >> whatever. > --===============6894852120560912805==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 19:24:22 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:23:54 +0000 Message-ID: <1767973299.806530.1674501834696@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2046094972551427676==" --===============2046094972551427676== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a harmless, inquisitive "I can't understand...". Then there's the bi= tchy intolerant variant. People will go wild when I say what's the point of a= n Imsai, or any uP prior to 8086/68000. I don't undervalue things that I don'= t find interesting though. But honestly can't understand the drooling love af= fair. =20 --===============2046094972551427676==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 19:25:12 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:24:34 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6569646911873097071==" --===============6569646911873097071== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 11:14 AM Mike Stein via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I offered some 8" diskettes a while back and didn't have a single inquiry, > and there doesn't seem to be a real shortage of other sizes either if you > don't mind sorting through used ones; even paper and mylar tape seem to > still be available. > True, eBay always has blank media, lots of it new-old stock still in the shrinkwrap. I have a pile of such myself. When it comes to parts I often read complaints that a certain IC or part is > unobtainium when a quick look on ebay or even Amazon will find a dozen > listings; some people get satisfaction from finding parts or documentation > that no one else could and sharing with the community. > A lot of that apparently is fake Chinesium, so it's somewhat misleading. > As to the reliability of mechanical devices, again, to each his/her own; > what is a frustrating experience for someone trying to get something done > is an opportunity for someone else to repair it and get that satisfaction. > At least, unlike some mysterious custom IC you can see what the problem is > and repair it. > I prefer using the original hardware myself, but I do enjoy the convenience of modern high-capacity memory drives and emulators. Sellam --===============6569646911873097071==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 19:28:32 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:28:07 +0000 Message-ID: <1401785157.803855.1674502087012@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8056720118693400536==" --===============8056720118693400536== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable @ Mike Stein Not everything is criticism. I only corrected a rather obtuse notion about p= eople replacing mechanical drives with solid state ones. Everyone would love = to use their original equipment if it was practical. I for 1 have NO luck wit= h floppy disks. Is it my part of the country? Could be. =20 --===============8056720118693400536==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 19:44:29 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: any COCO enthusiasts Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:34:05 +0000 Message-ID: <1201770113.808981.1674502445887@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <0aa6b8b6-1295-9470-fff2-9942a704c7cc@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0635527732893621396==" --===============0635527732893621396== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is surprisingly little interest in Techtronics gear despite the coolne= ss factor. As for the Intel MFS? System, which is Multibus? I have a whole cr= ate of mb cards on the way so FUGGEDABOUTIT :) When I was shopping for my first computer, I looked at the CoCo. In reality a= nything TRS-80 related had a lot of sex appeal (sounds weird I know). I opted= for a Tandy 1000. Dollar for dollar it was the best deal to be had (at Radio= Shack). So hence my bias, but that's a strong term. On Monday, January 23, 2023, 01:49:45 PM EST, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: As to what can you do with it? A local company was running a homemade NC drill using the (IIRC) Coco 2 with a pair of disk drives to drive the thing. I bought it for kicks, but never used it. To ask another similar question, I have a tektronix 2 axis controller that uses paper tape. Changing the questions slightly, WHY would I use such a thing? And ditto for an Intel software development system. I have more than enough nostalgia items to keep me busy for the next hundred years or so :). =20 --===============0635527732893621396==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 19:47:33 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:47:09 +0000 Message-ID: <1791293000.817489.1674503229914@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1523792833.303369.1674350240791@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3498460269336484138==" --===============3498460269336484138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok the MS used 2" disks. I suspect only Fuji made them. I am that mental. 245 tpi 720kb. That thing was a beast in it's day. Like a LOTR dwarf champion= or something. =20 --===============3498460269336484138==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 19:53:42 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 14:53:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1401785157.803855.1674502087012@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8686879548290559342==" --===============8686879548290559342== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not necessarily criticism, but there's usually a bit of judgement in there somewhere; "I can't understand why on earth anybody would spend good money and time buying old obsolete computers and getting them running" kinda suggests that the speaker thinks you've got a problem and should spend the money on more practical stuff (and they may well be right ;-) I've certainly got hard and floppy disk emulators for several of my systems; I was just saying that there are sick people out there who are happy when a floppy drive fails and they have the opportunity to learn and share repairing it. Jest no accountin' for some folks' tastes... On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 2:28 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > @ Mike Stein > > Not everything is criticism. I only corrected a rather obtuse notion > about people replacing mechanical drives with solid state ones. Everyone > would love to use their original equipment if it was practical. I for 1 > have NO luck with floppy disks. Is it my part of the country? Could be. --===============8686879548290559342==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 19:59:53 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:59:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1791293000.817489.1674503229914@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1897951703133546195==" --===============1897951703133546195== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was the Amstrad floppy. I think it was 3". Hopefully didn't get out of the UK. On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 7:47 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Ok the MS used 2" disks. I suspect only Fuji made them. I am that mental. > > 245 tpi 720kb. That thing was a beast in it's day. Like a LOTR dwarf > champion or something. --===============1897951703133546195==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 20:11:36 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:10:59 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6975380660170161467==" --===============6975380660170161467== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guess I've been lucky; haven't had any issues (AFAIK ;-) with any of the hundreds of ICs I've bought on eBay . On the other hand I've heard folks even have issues with stuff from Mouser etc. Same here; there's satisfaction in keeping the entire vintage package running, but when it comes to actually working with it and especially moving stuff to and from the modern world the emulators are indispensable and it's amazing just how active and ingenious the folks designing them are. And I'm still blown away that I can store ~10,000 times the amount of data on this IMI 'brick' in front of me (which cost ~$1200 in its day) on a much faster thumbnail-sized SD card costing <$100. m On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 2:24 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 11:14 AM Mike Stein via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I offered some 8" diskettes a while back and didn't have a single > inquiry, > > and there doesn't seem to be a real shortage of other sizes either if you > > don't mind sorting through used ones; even paper and mylar tape seem to > > still be available. > > > > True, eBay always has blank media, lots of it new-old stock still in the > shrinkwrap. I have a pile of such myself. > > When it comes to parts I often read complaints that a certain IC or part is > > unobtainium when a quick look on ebay or even Amazon will find a dozen > > listings; some people get satisfaction from finding parts or > documentation > > that no one else could and sharing with the community. > > > > A lot of that apparently is fake Chinesium, so it's somewhat misleading. > > > > As to the reliability of mechanical devices, again, to each his/her own; > > what is a frustrating experience for someone trying to get something done > > is an opportunity for someone else to repair it and get that > satisfaction. > > At least, unlike some mysterious custom IC you can see what the problem > is > > and repair it. > > > > I prefer using the original hardware myself, but I do enjoy the convenience > of modern high-capacity memory drives and emulators. > > Sellam > --===============6975380660170161467==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 20:13:22 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 20:12:51 +0000 Message-ID: <950903075.825417.1674504771601@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8392071802896132666==" --===============8392071802896132666== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, our time (and energy) on this earth is limited. For some more limited = then others. Like the old Dr. Who (circa 1989) when asked if he foumd butterf= lies interesting, replied "My good man, I find everything interesting". As do= I. As do a lot of people. Some people are geared towards diving headlong int= o some insane arcane technology. Others just want to play Alien Syndrome. Illegitimi non carborundum =20 --===============8392071802896132666==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 20:32:21 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:31:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <950903075.825417.1674504771601@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2840560364466763340==" --===============2840560364466763340== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 77, don't I know it... But most of us are fortunate enough to choose how we spend that limited time, whatever other folks may think. Speaking of, I've had fun but this discussion is time I'll never get back ;-) Time for a nap... ;-) On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:13 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Mike, our time (and energy) on this earth is limited. For some more > limited then others. Like the old Dr. Who (circa 1989) when asked if he > foumd butterflies interesting, replied "My good man, I find everything > interesting". As do I. As do a lot of people. Some people are geared > towards diving headlong into some insane arcane technology. Others just > want to play Alien Syndrome. > > Illegitimi non carborundum --===============2840560364466763340==-- From hush@dec.dog Mon Jan 23 20:33:17 2023 From: hush@dec.dog To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:32:40 -0500 Message-ID: <5fb45a4c-1591-4070-bc83-89f6f2fabcff@Canary> In-Reply-To: <950903075.825417.1674504771601@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5129249130361056986==" --===============5129249130361056986== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i am hopeful for the future of small-scale chip fabrication (and also copyrig= ht law overhaul, but that=E2=80=99s just unrealistic!) after seeing someone= =E2=80=99s project to fab their own CPU in their garage- maybe one day we=E2= =80=99ll see shops cropping up that specialize in their ability to replicate = old chips? one can dream=E2=80=A6 :) =E2=80=94 .hush Got interesting stuff to sell? Let me know! Looking for DEC, IBM, CDC, SGI, Data General, and more! > On Monday, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:13 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Mike, our time (and energy) on this earth is limited. For some more limited= then others. Like the old Dr. Who (circa 1989) when asked if he foumd butter= flies interesting, replied "My good man, I find everything interesting". As d= o I. As do a lot of people. Some people are geared towards diving headlong in= to some insane arcane technology. Others just want to play Alien Syndrome. > > Illegitimi non carborundum --===============5129249130361056986==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Jan 23 20:33:34 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:32:53 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5005541892632803991==" --===============5005541892632803991== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 3" floppy was available in single (flippy) and double-sided. But, the two different driveswould not accept each other's disks! (You could not use the flippy disks in the double-sided drive) Besides the Amstrad, it was advertised and sold for AppleII and Coco, under the name Amdek in USA, as an external two drive box. I have heard that it was offered for other systems, but the ads that I saw were offering only for Coco and Apple -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > There was the Amstrad floppy. I think it was 3". Hopefully didn't get out > of the UK. --===============5005541892632803991==-- From ama@ugr.es Mon Jan 23 20:38:38 2023 From: Angel M Alganza To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 21:38:15 +0100 Message-ID: <6a5e77d52ad1247705260f9785a1b89b@ugr.es> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1676918037051600377==" --===============1676918037051600377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-23 20:59, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > There was the Amstrad floppy. I think it was 3". Hopefully didn't get > out > of the UK. Why would you say such a thing? Of course it got out of the UK and came into Europe, where I could get them, use them, and enjoy them on my Amstrad CPC 6128. I still keep them, plus a few more I've been getting over the years, together with my original 6128, ant two others I've got since then, plus a CPC 486 I also got later. I was never lucky enough to own a PCW, but I still haven't lost the hope to get one some day. --===============1676918037051600377==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 20:39:25 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:38:50 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5fb45a4c-1591-4070-bc83-89f6f2fabcff@Canary> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0586269364235518857==" --===============0586269364235518857== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 12:32 PM hush(a)dec.dog via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > i am hopeful for the future of small-scale chip fabrication (and also > copyright law overhaul, but that=E2=80=99s just unrealistic!) after seeing > someone=E2=80=99s project to fab their own CPU in their garage- maybe one d= ay we=E2=80=99ll > see shops cropping up that specialize in their ability to replicate old > chips? one can dream=E2=80=A6 :) > Are you referring to Jeri Ellsworth? As far as I know she only fabricated an IC with simple logic gates on them, but it's possible she may have gone on to do more complex stuff, like a CPU. Sellam --===============0586269364235518857==-- From hush@dec.dog Mon Jan 23 20:57:20 2023 From: hush@dec.dog To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:56:46 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4210513123537585877==" --===============4210513123537585877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sam zeloof, actually: https://www.wired.com/story/22-year-old-builds-chips-pa= rents-garage/ =E2=80=94 .hush Got interesting stuff to sell? Let me know! Looking for DEC, IBM, CDC, SGI, Data General, and more! > On Monday, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:39 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 12:32 PM hush(a)dec.dog via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > i am hopeful for the future of small-scale chip fabrication (and also > > copyright law overhaul, but that=E2=80=99s just unrealistic!) after seeing > > someone=E2=80=99s project to fab their own CPU in their garage- maybe one= day we=E2=80=99ll > > see shops cropping up that specialize in their ability to replicate old > > chips? one can dream=E2=80=A6 :) > > > > Are you referring to Jeri Ellsworth? As far as I know she only fabricated > an IC with simple logic gates on them, but it's possible she may have gone > on to do more complex stuff, like a CPU. > > Sellam --===============4210513123537585877==-- From js@cimmeri.com Mon Jan 23 21:19:01 2023 From: js@cimmeri.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:08:35 -0500 Message-ID: <63CEF753.3020704@cimmeri.com> In-Reply-To: <1401785157.803855.1674502087012@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8116623774292343411==" --===============8116623774292343411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 1/23/2023 2:28 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: @ Mike Stein > > Not everything is criticism. I only corrected a rather obtuse notion abou= t people replacing mechanical drives with solid state ones. Everyone would lo= ve to use their original equipment if it was practical. I for 1 have NO luck = with floppy disks. Is it my part of the country? Could be. Would a few people here be willing to share their approaches to their=20 collection? I'll start. I've collected a variety of mainly DEC, HP, and Apple=20 machines, and have restored or repaired them slowly over time. However,=20 as they fail from now on, I will *not* be doing modern upgrades or=20 repairs. As they die, so shall they be retired or given away. For me, it's the experience of the original sights, sounds, feels, and=20 yes, emotions of the original hardware that's the inspiration. So,=20 floppy and tape drives all the way for me, as well as original hard=20 drives (Mike, I'm right there with you on the IMIs :). Emulators=20 just don't provide what I'm looking for. - John Frederick, Maryland --===============8116623774292343411==-- From hush@dec.dog Mon Jan 23 21:29:41 2023 From: hush@dec.dog To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:29:10 -0500 Message-ID: <67695674-73e1-4431-abc6-c34419ed2829@Canary> In-Reply-To: <63CEF753.3020704@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8965251816395988768==" --===============8965251816395988768== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable generally, if something is too difficult or too expensive to replace, i will = opt to replace it with something more modern. PDP11 memory is quite expensive= , for instance, so if the 4MB in my 11/83 fails i will be forced to emulate i= t with the qbone i have serving my disks- those are also quite spendy and tem= permental these days. i store all of my failed parts for a day when i am a bi= t more competent in the realm of hardware troubleshooting and repair, but bei= ng a software guy it=E2=80=99s certainly not something i can do right now. that being said i typically prefer to have original parts in my systems whene= ver possible, but i also have to accept that sometimes it just isn=E2=80=99t = possible. it does sadden me to think about sometimes, but that is where my op= timism for the CPU fabrication i mentioned comes in. the chips we (hopefully)= get some day may not be the exact same, but if they are real deal physical c= hips, and as long as they are indistinguishable in every aspect besides date = of manufacture i don=E2=80=99t think i=E2=80=99ll really mind. i can only spe= ak for myself, though. =E2=80=94 .hush Got interesting stuff to sell? Let me know! Looking for DEC, IBM, CDC, SGI, Data General, and more! > On Monday, Jan 23, 2023 at 4:18 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/23/2023 2:28 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: @ Mike Stein > > > > Not everything is criticism. I only corrected a rather obtuse notion abou= t people replacing mechanical drives with solid state ones. Everyone would lo= ve to use their original equipment if it was practical. I for 1 have NO luck = with floppy disks. Is it my part of the country? Could be. > > > Would a few people here be willing to share their approaches to their > collection? > > I'll start. I've collected a variety of mainly DEC, HP, and Apple > machines, and have restored or repaired them slowly over time. However, > as they fail from now on, I will *not* be doing modern upgrades or > repairs. As they die, so shall they be retired or given away. > > For me, it's the experience of the original sights, sounds, feels, and > yes, emotions of the original hardware that's the inspiration. So, > floppy and tape drives all the way for me, as well as original hard > drives (Mike, I'm right there with you on the IMIs :). Emulators > just don't provide what I'm looking for. > > - John > Frederick, Maryland > > --===============8965251816395988768==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 21:35:08 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 21:34:35 +0000 Message-ID: <2136127618.867645.1674509675704@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <63CEF753.3020704@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6313990428412562734==" --===============6313990428412562734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I never actually suspected I'd own every IBM inxompatible made, I scor= ed a bunch. Sold off a bunch. I can't say whether my Northstar Dimension or m= y NEC APC III would be the last to go. Preferably neither. I often find myael= f fawning over your bog standatd clone also. Don't particularly care to hold = on to anything IBM. Too much of that being done. Besides although I used them= plenty at jobs and even the local library, I never owned IBM anything, until= a Peanut (busted) in about 1995. The clones were far cheaper and many were m= ade well enough. It would be foolish to spend all that extra money. I also will never stop loving the C64. I had an Amiga 600 for a while but ne= ver got into it. Ataris are also amazing (8/16 bit). My very first computing = experience was on an Atari 400. That keyboard turned me off to computers for = a few years. Maybe if they had some AI on it I would have liked them better. = =20 --===============6313990428412562734==-- From ama@ugr.es Mon Jan 23 22:00:01 2023 From: Angel M Alganza To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 22:59:31 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5354785698975696486==" --===============5354785698975696486== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-23 18:56, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I find it interesting watching people using trackpads. Most don't know > *how* to use them effectively. Well, nobody teaches that... At least, nobody has taught me that, nor have I ever seen anybody do that. And I have seen many people complaining about how useless they are... > The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large > pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your > fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the > finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or > toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right > movements. Now, for the first time in my life, have I access to this extremely important information. > Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it > by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but > acceptably. Acceptably by which measurement? I hate them! I hate them! I hate them with all my might! I disable them in all laptops when possible, either by hardware or by software. But I'm trying one right now and, for the first time in many years, thanks to this very email of yours, I'm seeing the point of this freaking thing. I might even start to use it now instead of reaching for a mouse when keyboard shortcuts don't cut it (almost exclusively while browsing some very badly designed or heavily graphics loaded web sites). Thank you! --===============5354785698975696486==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Jan 23 22:00:42 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:59:35 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2475447275148281447==" --===============2475447275148281447== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/23/2023 12:59 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Let's face it, most of us have trouble justifying the time and money we > spend for whatever reason on what is essentially useless obsolete junk to > anyone outside our community. I "fell" into a situation that contains the trifecta of hobby justification.  It funds itself, it allows me to play with many systems, and my lovely SO not only does not complain about the hobby, she even sends links to items for sale and/or places to visit in the hobby.  It additionally keeps my HW skills in some use, which I value. > Thanks for your many contributions BTW, Jim, especially in the Commodore > world but much also applicable elsewhere. awww, shucks... In all honesty, I usually make this stuff to fix my system first.  That other people find a use is almost an afterthought :-) Well, I also make it to figure out how things work.  I find I don't really understand a system until I make a HW item for it. And, I've long held (and presented at my main job) that folks who try to understand the "under the covers" portions of technology, are the ones that excel in creative solutions to unique problems that tend to show up in IT or other tech fields. As to your soapbox, I try very hard not to judge folks for how to enter and enjoy the hobby. While I'd love to say it was just the nice thing to do, it's mainly that I've been recipient of that judgement many times. Maybe you all would believe this, but I am continually shocked by how many people will come up my demo or sales booth at a vintage computer show and aggressively complain or debate the merits of paying any attention to old systems (or related items).  I mean, it's a vintage computer show.  What did you expect to find there? :-) Jim --===============2475447275148281447==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Jan 23 22:06:17 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:05:46 -0600 Message-ID: <6d92a8af-978a-a5e7-bc97-7dc2fc4515fc@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMW2PR18MB221931910455880B8A76195AACC89=40MW2PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?2219=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1785115769114329451==" --===============1785115769114329451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/23/2023 1:01 PM, Mike Begley wrote: > Right now, I'm going back and forth on an IMSAI I am restoring. Part > of me wants to do as slavishly accurate a restoration as I can, but > the another part insists that there really is no such thing, really, > as the whole culture around S100 was about taking the bus and > extending it in a myriad of ways.  I'll probably fall somewhere in the > middle, but if I could ever find a CCS Z80 main board I would probably > switch to that and put the original IMSAI 8080 MPU board into storage. I think this is a very important point.  I have a lot more patience and "live and let live" perspective on folks that modify their systems in a way that can be returned to stock.  And, I'll give a bit of a pass to folks butchering a mass produced home machine with lots of units in the market (think C64).  But, modifying a limited availability machine in a way that cannot be returned to stock bothers me more than it probably should. Jim --===============1785115769114329451==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Jan 23 22:14:04 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: any COCO enthusiasts Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:13:35 -0600 Message-ID: <28a321d1-1a2e-4cc4-14fd-8f4a3e7d735d@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7824466254963090454==" --===============7824466254963090454== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/23/2023 1:21 PM, Mike Katz wrote: > > > On 1/23/2023 12:11 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/23/2023 11:53 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> The 6883 SAM was the "glue" that provided all of the timing and >>> address decoding for the entire system.  To reduce flicker the 6847 >>> and 6809E memory accesses were alternate cycled. This means that >>> they used opposite edges of the Phase 1 clock to access memory. >>> However, this meant running the system at .8949 MHz.  The SAM had >>> the ability to run the CPU at twice that speed but this resulted in >>> the video being disabled. >> Are you sure about that?  The system could be sped up, which involved >> not refreshing DRAM, but all of the support ICs and the DRAMs are >> 1MHz, so I don't think 2MHz was possible on the CoCo, at least. > I don't recall if that was the CoCo 2 or CoCo 3 but the system could > handle 1.8MHz (with a MC68B08E CPU).  The memory had to be 2MHz to > handle the alternate cycling. I stand corrected: "Switching the SAM into 1.8 MHz operation gives the CPU the time ordinarily used by the VDG and refresh. As such, the display shows garbage; this mode was seldom used. However, an unusual mode available by the SAM is called the Address Dependent mode, where ROM reads (since they do not use the DRAM) occur at 1.8 MHz but regular RAM access occurs at .89 MHz. In effect, since the BASIC interpreter runs from ROM, putting the machine in this mode would nearly double the performance of a BASIC program while maintaining video display and DRAM refresh. Of course, this would throw off the software timing loops and I/O operations would be affected. Despite this, however, the "high speed POKE" was used by many BASIC programs even though it overclocked the hardware, which was only rated for 1 MHz operation. " Note that the CC3 had a speedup poke that was different and did in fact speed the entire system with video intact. > > The straight MC6809 (non E version) used a more forgiving quadrature > clock but could not be alternate cycled. Actually, the 6809E is the Q/E clock version. The 6809(non e) is the crystal based one. >> > Thank you for clearing up the CoCo 3, I never had one.  I know the > MC6887 could address and handle the refresh for 96K. I'll have to read up more on SAM.  I know it can have 96 memory, but I thought is was 64kB RAM and 32kB ROM. >> > OS9 Level II was designed by Motorola and Microware and made full use > of the capabilities of the 6809 architecture.  With simple Dynamic > Address Translation 1MB of extended address space was available. The CoCo 3 could only do 512kB, due to the translation granularity being 8kB and the GIME DAT only have 6 bits.  But, back in the day and today, there are solutions to extend that to 8 bits per translation, which brings up to 2MB.  CoCo 3 based L2 OS9 only supports up to 2MB natively.  There is a few > 2MB options, but OS9 can currently only use the >2MB as a RAM disk. Jim --===============7824466254963090454==-- From js@cimmeri.com Mon Jan 23 22:17:08 2023 From: js@cimmeri.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:06:38 -0500 Message-ID: <63CF04EE.7000803@cimmeri.com> In-Reply-To: <67695674-73e1-4431-abc6-c34419ed2829@Canary> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1881541785759997583==" --===============1881541785759997583== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hush, contact me off-list. I have two DEC PDP-11/05's for sale, if=20 that's of any interest. On 1/23/2023 4:29 PM, hush(a)dec.dog via cctalk wrote: > ... > =E2=80=94 > .hush > Got interesting stuff to sell? Let me know! > Looking for DEC, IBM, CDC, SGI, Data General, and more! > >> On Monday, Jan 23, 2023 at 4:18 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote: >>> On 1/23/2023 2:28 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: @ Mike Stein >>> >>> Not everything is criticism. I only corrected a rather obtuse notion abou= t people replacing mechanical drives with solid state ones. Everyone would lo= ve to use their original equipment if it was practical. I for 1 have NO luck = with floppy disks. Is it my part of the country? Could be. >> Would a few people here be willing to share their approaches to their >> collection? >> >> I'll start. I've collected a variety of mainly DEC, HP, and Apple >> machines, and have restored or repaired them slowly over time. However, >> as they fail from now on, I will *not* be doing modern upgrades or >> repairs. As they die, so shall they be retired or given away. >> >> For me, it's the experience of the original sights, sounds, feels, and >> yes, emotions of the original hardware that's the inspiration. So, >> floppy and tape drives all the way for me, as well as original hard >> drives (Mike, I'm right there with you on the IMIs :). Emulators >> just don't provide what I'm looking for. >> >> - John >> Frederick, Maryland --===============1881541785759997583==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Jan 23 22:39:59 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 14:39:18 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3019562950454097765==" --===============3019562950454097765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I also once had an IBM laptop with the "eraser stick" thingie in the > middle of the keyboard. I turned it back in after a few weeks and > demanded some other model, any model so long as it didn't have that > device. IF you can get used to it, the clit-mouse can work well. Not everybody can get used to it. And, until you do, it is extraordinarily frustrating. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3019562950454097765==-- From spam@hell.org Mon Jan 23 22:40:19 2023 From: Mike Begley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 22:39:26 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4251966086407620471==" --===============4251966086407620471== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I must have missed your offer for 8" floppies! Please let me know if you sti= ll have any. I was looking for some a while back, and mostly found them in the $5.00/piece= range, which is just ridiculous. I finally just happened across someone in = a facebook group with about a hundred to sell, fairly inexpensively. Turned = out he was in Kyiv, which lead to some very interesting conversations about l= iving in and shipping from a war zone. When I get my IMSAI running I hope to dump the contents somewhere; seems they= were from a Ukrainian aircraft manufacturer during the cold war; would be in= teresting to see what sort of data might be on there. -mike ________________________________ From: Mike Stein via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 23, 2023 11:13 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Mike Stein Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses G= reaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) I think the issue of finding media tends to be a little overstated. I offered some 8" diskettes a while back and didn't have a single inquiry, and there doesn't seem to be a real shortage of other sizes either if you don't mind sorting through used ones; even paper and mylar tape seem to still be available. When it comes to parts I often read complaints that a certain IC or part is unobtainium when a quick look on ebay or even Amazon will find a dozen listings; some people get satisfaction from finding parts or documentation that no one else could and sharing with the community. As to the reliability of mechanical devices, again, to each his/her own; what is a frustrating experience for someone trying to get something done is an opportunity for someone else to repair it and get that satisfaction. At least, unlike some mysterious custom IC you can see what the problem is and repair it. m On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 1:31 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > I've never ever heard anyone state they like Goteks better then floppy > drives. The media is difficult to find in a usable state. That puts a big > crimp on any joy you may obtain from using original equipment. Hence people > opt for the next best thing. Which offers a number of conveniences I'll > add. On Monday, January 23, 2023, 01:26:40 PM EST, Christian Corti via > cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Chris Zach wrote: > > Is it a valid repair? Yes. Is it not "100% original" nope, and I don't > care > > too much. However one of the supplies was a total wreck from someone else > > Replacing a failed and possibly unrepairable component is something > different than changing working parts with newer ones "just because I like > the modern ones more". Then, I would not be in classic computing but just > in "running old equipment". > > Christian > --===============4251966086407620471==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Mon Jan 23 22:55:15 2023 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:54:24 -0500 Message-ID: <71d6fdb7-7b07-b320-9cfd-ce095c15e6ec@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <0e11acba2dbc4d8bb1a2c75ba192b439@syssrc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7349278186641962091==" --===============7349278186641962091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This would make a great talk at one of the Vintage Computer Festivals. At VCF East I see many parents bringing children (teenagers especially) that would get an important lesson from this showing how adults from vastly different walks of life interact and produce positive results. > Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney > > The System Source Computer Museum: > > Bob Roswell > https://museum.syssrc.com/ > > --===============7349278186641962091==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 23:06:54 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:06:19 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <63CEF753.3020704@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6502368731636005076==" --===============6502368731636005076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Same here, I prefer to use the original hardware and software media, etc. I also prefer to read documentation from paper I'm holding in my hands, but then this is my preference for reading generally. For me, modern emulators and storage devices are an acceptable exception for software development. I still like to write software for the Apple ][ for fun and street cred, and it just makes the process much quicker and easier, and it especially makes it easy to transfer disk images onto the internet to share projects with others. With regards specifically to modern solid state storage devices, I don't think I'm losing any of the vintage computing experience by using them rather than clunky old hard disks that one runs the risk of having crash on them at any moment due to their age. Not that the modern storage devices are impervious to crash or malfunction, but it's on the "much less likely" side of the scale. Plus, they're much faster, and they offer a convenience that only adds to the experience (like being able to make backups of important data quickly and easily, not to mention being able to keep the back-ups off-site by uploading to The Cloud). But when I want to run an old game or something, I pull out the disk from my collection and play it on the real hardware. In that regard, the emulators cannot compare. Sellam On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 1:18 PM js--- via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/23/2023 2:28 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: @ Mike Stein > > > > Not everything is criticism. I only corrected a rather obtuse notion > about people replacing mechanical drives with solid state ones. Everyone > would love to use their original equipment if it was practical. I for 1 > have NO luck with floppy disks. Is it my part of the country? Could be. > > > Would a few people here be willing to share their approaches to their > collection? > > I'll start. I've collected a variety of mainly DEC, HP, and Apple > machines, and have restored or repaired them slowly over time. However, > as they fail from now on, I will *not* be doing modern upgrades or > repairs. As they die, so shall they be retired or given away. > > For me, it's the experience of the original sights, sounds, feels, and > yes, emotions of the original hardware that's the inspiration. So, > floppy and tape drives all the way for me, as well as original hard > drives (Mike, I'm right there with you on the IMIs :). Emulators > just don't provide what I'm looking for. > > - John > Frederick, Maryland > > > --===============6502368731636005076==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 23:10:19 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:09:42 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2136127618.867645.1674509675704@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6059826092063004472==" --===============6059826092063004472== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 1:34 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > I also will never stop loving the C64. I had an Amiga 600 for a while but > never got into it. Ataris are also amazing (8/16 bit). I feel the same with the Apple ][ series vs. the Apple //gs. The Apple //gs is a really interesting machine, but I prefer the regular ][-series machines. I submit that the //gs isn't even really an Apple ][ properly. It's more like a quasi-Macintosh with really good (not perfect) built-in emulation of an Enhanced //e. Sellam --===============6059826092063004472==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 23:20:43 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:20:00 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6237696056849497981==" --===============6237696056849497981== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 2:39 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > IF you can get used to it, the clit-mouse can work well. > Not everybody can get used to it. > And, until you do, it is extraordinarily frustrating. > It's one of those "is the dress gold or black" kinda things. I cannot stand them, and think they are the worst pointer design device ever devised by (an obviously deranged) man. Sellam --===============6237696056849497981==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Mon Jan 23 23:21:10 2023 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 23:20:30 +0000 Message-ID: <76392f7f-cdd5-01fd-1883-cd4133ef1144@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6039837303289457868==" --===============6039837303289457868== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 23/01/2023 20:38, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Are you referring to Jeri Ellsworth? As far as I know she only fabricated > an IC with simple logic gates on them, but it's possible she may have gone > on to do more complex stuff, like a CPU. I think the reference was to Sam Zeloof: https://www.youtube.com/@SamZeloof/videos. I don't think he's done a CPU but he was up to ~100 transistors on a chip when last I looked. Maybe one day he'll be able to fabricate working Qbus transceiver chips ... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============6039837303289457868==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jan 23 23:43:47 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:43:20 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMW2PR18MB22199279694C241FA10E398BACC89=40MW2PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?2219=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3234574332895802835==" --===============3234574332895802835== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/23/2023 5:39 PM, Mike Begley via cctalk wrote: > I must have missed your offer for 8" floppies! Please let me know if you s= till have any. > > I was looking for some a while back, and mostly found them in the $5.00/pie= ce range, which is just ridiculous. I don't know.=C2=A0 Isn't that what they cost originally?=C2=A0=C2=A0 :-) bill --===============3234574332895802835==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 23:45:53 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:45:18 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558039E8988D02386767B65EEDC89=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0104107868385030568==" --===============0104107868385030568== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two things They're not making anymore: land and 8" floppy disks. So in that light, $5 per disk, while unfortunate, is not that outrageous. Sellam On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:43 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 1/23/2023 5:39 PM, Mike Begley via cctalk wrote: > > I must have missed your offer for 8" floppies! Please let me know if > you still have any. > > > > I was looking for some a while back, and mostly found them in the > $5.00/piece range, which is just ridiculous. > > I don't know. Isn't that what they cost originally? :-) > > > bill > > > --===============0104107868385030568==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jan 23 23:50:01 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:49:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1731056509255565248==" --===============1731056509255565248== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/23/2023 6:45 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Two things They're not making anymore: land and 8" floppy disks. Hmmm....  I wonder where The Pentagon buys them to keep the launch codes on?  :-) bill --===============1731056509255565248==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Mon Jan 23 23:57:44 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 23:57:18 +0000 Message-ID: <0a2f01d92f86$6d715f90$48541eb0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1401785157.803855.1674502087012@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3789497616568774732==" --===============3789497616568774732== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris via cctalk > Sent: 23 January 2023 19:28 > To: Mike Stein via cctalk > Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses > GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) >=20 > @ Mike Stein >=20 > Not everything is criticism. I only corrected a rather obtuse notion about= people > replacing mechanical drives with solid state ones. Everyone would love to u= se > their original equipment if it was practical. I for 1 have NO luck with flo= ppy disks. > Is it my part of the country? Could be. I have had nothing but trouble with floppy disks. I have an IBM3174 which has= 2.4Mb 5.25" floppy drives. It takes ages (10-15mins perhaps) to load. If I load from a GOTEK its equally slow but it usually loads first time. From= real floppy less often. 2.4Mb disks are like hens teeth. I still have the or= iginal disks and drives but if I use them I risk damaging irreplaceable delic= ate media.=20 The experience is less noisy but only a little less. Without the GOTEK I feel= it would be useless. My PC Server seems to have similar issues. I have several drives for it, and = I need them for several little tasks, like re-building the RAID array which I= seen to need to do often..... .... so its currently useless as I can get a GOTEK working. My Atari ST also has a GOTEK. Again it works with the GOTEK. Less good with = the real floppy. Even though its only a 720k its unreliable.... Again I have = the drives and disks still.... Lastly I have a Tandy Color Computer. I don't even have a floppy, so without = the CoCo SDC that lets me load floppy images from an SD Card. Without that it= s back to cassettes or more likely AVI files loaded from a computer... So whilst I would love to continue to use floppies, in my experience it kills= any chance of getting anything to work... .. and I think many of the issues are that the media is getting soft. Perhaps= baking would help? Dave=20 =20 --===============3789497616568774732==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 00:00:23 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:59:35 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0a2f01d92f86$6d715f90$48541eb0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6695152420528061757==" --===============6695152420528061757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, Do you by chance store your magnet collection with your vintage computer collection? Sellam On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:57 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chris via cctalk > > Sent: 23 January 2023 19:28 > > To: Mike Stein via cctalk > > Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum > uses > > GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) > > > > @ Mike Stein > > > > Not everything is criticism. I only corrected a rather obtuse notion > about people > > replacing mechanical drives with solid state ones. Everyone would love > to use > > their original equipment if it was practical. I for 1 have NO luck with > floppy disks. > > Is it my part of the country? Could be. > > I have had nothing but trouble with floppy disks. I have an IBM3174 which > has 2.4Mb 5.25" floppy drives. It takes ages (10-15mins perhaps) to load. > If I load from a GOTEK its equally slow but it usually loads first time. > From real floppy less often. 2.4Mb disks are like hens teeth. I still have > the original disks and drives but if I use them I risk damaging > irreplaceable delicate media. > The experience is less noisy but only a little less. Without the GOTEK I > feel it would be useless. > > My PC Server seems to have similar issues. I have several drives for it, > and I need them for several little tasks, like re-building the RAID array > which I seen to need to do often..... > .... so its currently useless as I can get a GOTEK working. > > My Atari ST also has a GOTEK. Again it works with the GOTEK. Less good > with the real floppy. Even though its only a 720k its unreliable.... Again > I have the drives and disks still.... > > Lastly I have a Tandy Color Computer. I don't even have a floppy, so > without the CoCo SDC that lets me load floppy images from an SD Card. > Without that its back to cassettes or more likely AVI files loaded from a > computer... > > So whilst I would love to continue to use floppies, in my experience it > kills any chance of getting anything to work... > .. and I think many of the issues are that the media is getting soft. > Perhaps baking would help? > > Dave > > > > > > --===============6695152420528061757==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 24 00:13:34 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 00:13:09 +0000 Message-ID: <2073800965.928822.1674519189715@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <0a2f01d92f86$6d715f90$48541eb0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5280890469517839415==" --===============5280890469517839415== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 5$ for an 8" disk isn't even remotely pricey. Especially given the amount of= computers that use them. I only have 1 computer remaining that utilizes them= (and 5 1/4") and would love to see it boot off one.=20 I have no luck with disks either. Again the humidity may have something to do= with it. I have come across 25+ year old disks and successfully imaged most = of them. But they don't last long at all after that. The Minisport is such an oddball it just kills me to not finally see them boo= t off a disk. I never had a ac adapter. Bought suitable batteries years ago i= ntending to rebuild the battery packs. They work or sid to some degree afaik.= To create simple aluminum molds for the disk case and other components is no= t beyond my abilities (and equipment). I have a dream - in it I'm able to spr= ay magnetic goop onto a mylar disk and have a functional floppy disk. Who kno= ws. =20 --===============5280890469517839415==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 24 01:04:53 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:04:25 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558039E8988D02386767B65EEDC89=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2470551784282200602==" --===============2470551784282200602== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/23/23 15:43, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/23/2023 5:39 PM, Mike Begley via cctalk wrote: >> I must have missed your offer for 8" floppies!  Please let me know if >> you still have any. >> >> I was looking for some a while back, and mostly found them in the >> $5.00/piece range, which is just ridiculous. > > I don't know.  Isn't that what they cost originally?   :-) It's what I call the TV set phenomenon. A mid-range TV cost about $200 in that days currency. Still seems to be true. Actually, more than that. $50-100 for a box of 10 was close to the retail price back in 1975. But that was in 1975 dollars, back when you could rent a 1-bedroom apartment in San Jose for about $200/month. 5.25" floppies started out at about $5 each retail. Curiously, the price of my first box of high-density Fuji 3.5" floppies was about the same--$50--as was the price of my first box of 3M ED floppies years later. Now, I'm getting 64GB microSD cards for just under $5 each. --Chuck --===============2470551784282200602==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 24 01:14:39 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:12:32 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8802295081089244225==" --===============8802295081089244225== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/23/23 10:04 AM, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > The issue is that Gmail filtering isn't great at filtering the list, > the way it's setup. A lot of people use it. Clicking to block the > sender blocks the entire list. You bring up a valid concern, people filtering the entire list instead of a specific actual sender. But I suspect that applies to many mailing lists. Given contemporary email security measures (DMARC), it's neigh impossible for an intermediate mailing list to send an email address with the poster's email in the From: field. > Creating custom filters is somewhat in exact due to the odd way the > listsrv is configured. I suspect that many of us will agree that Gmail leaves a lot to be desired when compared to what more traditional MUAs can do. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============8802295081089244225==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 24 01:16:47 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:16:25 -0800 Message-ID: <006f01d92f91$7b2f2170$718d6450$@net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55800BCE1183674BB8126A8EEDC89=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8555962979726432780==" --===============8555962979726432780== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Hmmm.... I wonder where The Pentagon buys them to keep the launch > codes > on? :-) >=20 >=20 > bill >=20 I believe the Pentagon finally upgraded last year and got rid of the 8" flopp= y drives. There used to be one manufacturer that continued to make and supply= them to the government from back East.... -Ali --===============8555962979726432780==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 24 01:19:14 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:18:50 -0800 Message-ID: <007001d92f91$d1766160$74632420$@net> In-Reply-To: <006f01d92f91$7b2f2170$718d6450$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3010984171913585412==" --===============3010984171913585412== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hmmm.... I wonder where The Pentagon buys them to keep the launch > > codes > > on? :-) > > > > > > bill > > > > I believe the Pentagon finally upgraded last year and got rid of the 8" > floppy drives. There used to be one manufacturer that continued to make > and supply them to the government from back East.... > > -Ali Correction: 2019 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/us/nuclear-weapons-floppy-disks.html -Ali --===============3010984171913585412==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Tue Jan 24 01:31:22 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:30:45 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7901151438297334278==" --===============7901151438297334278== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 5:14 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/23/23 10:04 AM, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > > The issue is that Gmail filtering isn't great at filtering the list, > > the way it's setup. A lot of people use it. Clicking to block the > > sender blocks the entire list. > > You bring up a valid concern, people filtering the entire list instead > of a specific actual sender. But I suspect that applies to many mailing > lists. > No other list I'm a member of sets the headers this way. Anything send from groups.io (which has a very nice MUTE topic feature) is: From: actual email Reply-To: list address List-Id: list address --===============7901151438297334278==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 24 01:38:33 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:36:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7482492873662741604==" --===============7482492873662741604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/23/23 1:50 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > I've solved this problem with a simple procmail rule: I did similar. > ##### > REPLYTO_=`formail -cXCc: | cut -d',' -f1 | sed -e 's/Cc: //' | sed -e > 's/\"/\\\"/g'` > > 0 fw > * ^To:.*classiccmp|^Cc:.*classiccmp > | sed -e 's/\[cctalk\] //g' | formail -i "From: $REPLYTO_" -i "Reply-To: > ClassicCmp " -I "Cc:" > ##### Thank you for sharing your rules. I'm enhancing the rules that I had based on something that you're doing. ... originalPoster=`formail -c -zxCc:` ... |/path/to/formail -fb -i "From: $originalPoster" -i "List-Post: >" -R Reply-To Old-Reply-To N.B. the -z option removes leading and trailing whitespaces on fields extracted with -x. So you can get /just/ the Cc: header's contents. My only qualm about this is if the original poster posted with a Reply-To:. I don't currently have logic in place to extract their Reply-To, if it exists, and preserve it. But, I think I'll simply live with that bug for now. There's a chance -- I've not looked -- that any existing Reply-To: is overwritten by the mailing list. -- Maybe I should test that. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============7482492873662741604==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 24 01:59:08 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 01:58:41 +0000 Message-ID: <1918950654.965898.1674525521260@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2073800965.928822.1674519189715@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7778036774796120887==" --===============7778036774796120887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The nice thing was by the mid 80s there didn't seem to be crap disks. Some g= uy had a shop in some basement. Commodore stuff mostly iirc. He was selling g= eneric didks. They were cheap, probably 4 for a dollar. I never had a problem= with a single 1. Can't recall if I ever formatted them to 720k though. =20 --===============7778036774796120887==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 24 02:05:21 2023 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Rejected messages Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:03:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4282305333687101682==" --===============4282305333687101682== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/23/23 6:36 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > There's a chance that any existing Reply-To: is overwritten by the > mailing list. -- Maybe I should test that. }:-) It seems as if the list adds its' self to the Reply-To: header. "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" So it may be possible to remove that to artificially re-create an original Reply-To: header. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============4282305333687101682==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 24 02:14:26 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:14:01 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2073800965.928822.1674519189715@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8982523606977335664==" --===============8982523606977335664== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > The Minisport is such an oddball it just kills me to not finally see > them boot off a disk. I never had a ac adapter. Bought suitable > batteries years ago intending to rebuild the battery packs. They work or > sid to some degree afaik. To create simple aluminum molds for the disk > case and other components is not beyond my abilities (and equipment). I > have a dream - in it I'm able to spray magnetic goop onto a mylar disk > and have a functional floppy disk. Who knows. How many Oersted was it? (could you cut a 2.5" circle out of an 8" disk?) --===============8982523606977335664==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue Jan 24 02:17:53 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 20:17:27 -0600 Message-ID: <8a24a2bb-a4f0-16d0-e5a9-7c9b0eec107a@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <1918950654.965898.1674525521260@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1567760823250428693==" --===============1567760823250428693== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/23/2023 7:58 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > The nice thing was by the mid 80s there didn't seem to be crap disks. Som= e guy had a shop in some basement. Commodore stuff mostly iirc. He was sellin= g generic didks. They were cheap, probably 4 for a dollar. I never had a prob= lem with a single 1. Can't recall if I ever formatted them to 720k though. That brings back memories (pun maybe intended).=C2=A0 In the late 1980s, you = could buy 5.25 DSDD in bulk for $USD0.29/disk, but you had to buy in=20 bulk.=C2=A0 So, clubs would buy, or someone would snag 100 or 200 and then=20 dole them out for a bit of profit. Tons of them here and still in use. --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============1567760823250428693==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 24 02:25:43 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 02:25:12 +0000 Message-ID: <270512750.973584.1674527112119@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5588350892289707878==" --===============5588350892289707878== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, January 23, 2023, 09:14:08 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: How many Oersted was it? C: in the spirit of the blessedness bestowed upon me, having received this em= ail twice, I've decided to breakup my reply into 2 equal but distinct parts. = And answer his questions in reverse order. - I done lost my Oersted meter Fred. Got a spare? =20 --===============5588350892289707878==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Jan 24 02:49:18 2023 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:48:38 -0800 Message-ID: <602E1E9F-37E4-41EA-AE1B-3DB62E9C7C0E@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: <007001d92f91$d1766160$74632420$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3152675849250570364==" --===============3152675849250570364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From NYT website: You’ve reached your limit of free articles. Purchase a subscription yadda-yadda THET! :) Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Jan 23, 2023, at 5:18 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > >  >> >>> Hmmm.... I wonder where The Pentagon buys them to keep the launch >>> codes >>> on? :-) >>> >>> >>> bill >>> >> >> I believe the Pentagon finally upgraded last year and got rid of the 8" >> floppy drives. There used to be one manufacturer that continued to make >> and supply them to the government from back East.... >> >> -Ali > > > Correction: 2019 > > https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/us/nuclear-weapons-floppy-disks.html > > -Ali > --===============3152675849250570364==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Jan 24 02:51:19 2023 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:50:39 -0800 Message-ID: <93688965-3A69-4B8B-BF36-60BE52630AD6@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: <602E1E9F-37E4-41EA-AE1B-3DB62E9C7C0E@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1888512328134967525==" --===============1888512328134967525== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Correction, that should have been=E2=80=A6 THWT! ;) Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Jan 23, 2023, at 6:49 PM, Don R via cctalk wro= te: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFFrom NYT website: >=20 > You=E2=80=99ve reached your limit of free articles. >=20 > Purchase a subscription yadda-yadda=20 >=20 > THET! :) >=20 > Don Resor > Sent from someone's iPhone >=20 >> On Jan 23, 2023, at 5:18 PM, Ali via cctalk wrot= e: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>>=20 >>>> Hmmm.... I wonder where The Pentagon buys them to keep the launch >>>> codes >>>> on? :-) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> bill >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I believe the Pentagon finally upgraded last year and got rid of the 8" >>> floppy drives. There used to be one manufacturer that continued to make >>> and supply them to the government from back East.... >>>=20 >>> -Ali >>=20 >>=20 >> Correction: 2019 >>=20 >> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/us/nuclear-weapons-floppy-disks.html >>=20 >> -Ali >>=20 --===============1888512328134967525==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 24 02:58:24 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:57:55 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <270512750.973584.1674527112119@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0204219764522343465==" --===============0204219764522343465== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > How many Oersted was it? On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > C: in the spirit of the blessedness bestowed upon me, having received this = email twice, I've decided to breakup my reply into 2 equal but distinct parts= . And answer his questions in reverse order. > - I done lost my Oersted meter Fred. Got a spare? sorry, never had one. Chuck might know the cookie coercivity specs! 8" and 5.25" were 300 Oersted 5.25" HD was 600 Oersted I think that 720K 3.5" was about 600 Oersted and 1.4M was about 720-750, being close enough that that was why you could=20 sometimes get away with using a 720K disk as a 1.4M https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_density has a chart, but not sure if all of the sources are reliable and does not include 2.5" --===============0204219764522343465==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 03:05:23 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:04:46 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8a24a2bb-a4f0-16d0-e5a9-7c9b0eec107a@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7188734159262742404==" --===============7188734159262742404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 6:17 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 1/23/2023 7:58 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > That brings back memories (pun maybe intended). In the late 1980s, you > could buy 5.25 DSDD in bulk for $USD0.29/disk, but you had to buy in > bulk. So, clubs would buy, or someone would snag 100 or 200 and then > dole them out for a bit of profit. > I did that a couple times: bought 50 at a time for maybe 35 cents each? Something like that. They worked (and continue to work) great. Sellam --===============7188734159262742404==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue Jan 24 03:32:23 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 21:31:52 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6798872324566657931==" --===============6798872324566657931== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/23/2023 9:04 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 6:17 PM Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 1/23/2023 7:58 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> That brings back memories (pun maybe intended). In the late 1980s, you >> could buy 5.25 DSDD in bulk for $USD0.29/disk, but you had to buy in >> bulk. So, clubs would buy, or someone would snag 100 or 200 and then >> dole them out for a bit of profit. >> > I did that a couple times: bought 50 at a time for maybe 35 cents each? > Something like that. They worked (and continue to work) great. > > Sellam For some reason, the whole buy in bulk and cut down to smaller sizes and=20 sell just seemed so underworldly to me. You drove over to a friend's=20 home, flashed a bit of cash, and someone would snag it and lay a plastic=20 baggie of disks (literally.=C2=A0 To save money, I remember they skipped=20 boxes for plastic bags of 10) into your hand. You quickly went back to=20 the car and drove away.=C2=A0 Sometimes, the exchange happened at an event or= =20 in front of a frequented store. It felt dishonest in some way. I must=20 have watched too many drug films/TV shows at the time. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============6798872324566657931==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 24 03:41:38 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:41:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2515719053897394808==" --===============2515719053897394808== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > For some reason, the whole buy in bulk and cut down to smaller sizes and se= ll=20 > just seemed so underworldly to me. You drove over to a friend's home, flash= ed=20 > a bit of cash, and someone would snag it and lay a plastic baggie of disks = > (literally.=C2=A0 To save money, I remember they skipped boxes for plastic = bags=20 > of 10) into your hand. You quickly went back to the car and drove away.=C2= =A0=20 > Sometimes, the exchange happened at an event or in front of a frequented=20 > store. It felt dishonest in some way. I must have watched too many drug=20 > films/TV shows at the time. Well, if you were really worried about what it looked like to the=20 neighbors, you could have hidden the disks inside a bag of pot. --===============2515719053897394808==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 24 03:57:31 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:57:02 -0800 Message-ID: <007b01d92fa7$eb42fca0$c1c8f5e0$@net> In-Reply-To: <602E1E9F-37E4-41EA-AE1B-3DB62E9C7C0E@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8411878114293182016==" --===============8411878114293182016== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > From NYT website: > > You’ve reached your limit of free articles. > > Purchase a subscription yadda-yadda > > THET! :) > > Don Resor https://sf.funcheap.com/city-guide/ny-times-free/ Problem solved and completely legal... -Ali --===============8411878114293182016==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 24 08:58:27 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 09:57:52 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3505500026880331017==" --===============3505500026880331017== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Mike Stein wrote: > I think the issue of finding media tends to be a little overstated. > > I offered some 8" diskettes a while back and didn't have a single inquiry, > and there doesn't seem to be a real shortage of other sizes either if you > don't mind sorting through used ones; even paper and mylar tape seem to > still be available. I agree. My stock of floppy disks has become so large that I am not even looking after such media any more. And I don't even accept 3.5" HD disks any more, if offered. > As to the reliability of mechanical devices, again, to each his/her own; > what is a frustrating experience for someone trying to get something done > is an opportunity for someone else to repair it and get that satisfaction. > At least, unlike some mysterious custom IC you can see what the problem is > and repair it. The point of classic computing (and other fields of course), for me, is this feeling of satisfaction after a repair or after finding out how to operate and run a system. Christian --===============3505500026880331017==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 24 09:25:58 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 10:25:28 +0100 Message-ID: <8893893-c1b-87b9-e11b-1e836e8bb773@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <602E1E9F-37E4-41EA-AE1B-3DB62E9C7C0E@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1370764930213629754==" --===============1370764930213629754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Don R wrote: > From NYT website: > > You?ve reached your limit of free articles. > > Purchase a subscription yadda-yadda Delete your cookies and web site caches ;-) (hint: install "Cookie Autodelete" browser add on) Christian --===============1370764930213629754==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 24 12:42:17 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 12:41:43 +0000 Message-ID: <1389554246.1065377.1674564103909@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0442734308842184166==" --===============0442734308842184166== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah come on Jim fess up. You bought too many bags of gonja that way. Like the= rest of us. This schnitzel is too funny. And cheap floppys are still like crack to this day. To some of us anyway. =20 --===============0442734308842184166==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 24 13:48:01 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 13:47:30 +0000 Message-ID: <1066335815.1094973.1674568050296@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7486877192460697169==" --===============7486877192460697169== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 On Monday, January 23, 2023, 09:58:07 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: sorry, never had one. Chuck might know the cookie coercivity specs! 8" and 5.25" were 300 Oersted 5.25" HD was 600 Oersted I think that 720K 3.5" was about 600 Oersted and 1.4M was about 720-750, being close enough that that was why you could sometimes get away with using a 720K disk as a 1.4M https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_density has a chart, but not sure if all of the sources are reliable and does not include 2.5" C: Remember though they are 2" disks. And shootimg from the hip, if coercivit= y wasn't on spec, would a) would that pose a threat to the disk dribe's circu= itry. And b) could the circuit be tweaked to work with what's there.=20 I'm not sure how this could be worked out, but it seems to me there could be = a way to modify a drive so that it could measure a disk's coercivity. There was that scene in the Jackal where a hacker woman claimed she could rea= d a card's magnetic strip with a disk drive. I guess it's possible the more I= think about it. =20 --===============7486877192460697169==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 24 15:16:38 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 08:16:06 -0700 Message-ID: <219a633e-7256-e1c7-5e9c-f9b8a2fe8d47@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <76392f7f-cdd5-01fd-1883-cd4133ef1144@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3111848396892015547==" --===============3111848396892015547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-23 4:20 p.m., Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 23/01/2023 20:38, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> Are you referring to Jeri Ellsworth?  As far as I know she only >> fabricated >> an IC with simple logic gates on them, but it's possible she may have >> gone >> on to do more complex stuff, like a CPU. > > I think the reference was to Sam Zeloof: > https://www.youtube.com/@SamZeloof/videos. > > > I don't think he's done a CPU but he was up to ~100 transistors on a > chip when last I looked. > > > Maybe one day he'll be able to fabricate working Qbus transceiver chips ... > > > Antonio > > You can always ASK. Ben. --===============3111848396892015547==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 24 16:28:54 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 08:28:28 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1066335815.1094973.1674568050296@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1196105083986216475==" --===============1196105083986216475== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > C: Remember though they are 2" disks. And shootimg from the hip, if > coercivity wasn't on spec, would a) would that pose a threat to the disk > dribe's circuitry. no, wrong coercivity won't hurt the drive. When the college purchasing agent was sleeping with the Roytype salesman, they gave us HD (1.2M/600Oe) disks for the TRS80s. Disk would format and write, seemingly OK. A few minutes later, it was blank again. ("Good morning Mister Phelps; if you or the Mission Impossible team are captured, we will disavow all knowledge. This message will self-destruct.") > And b) could the circuit be tweaked to work with what's there. possibly. different level of write current, etc. > I'm not sure how this could be worked out, but it seems to me there > could be a way to modify a drive so that it could measure a disk's > coercivity. Try different write currents, and see what the thresholds are? Knowing what it already has for a write current might give a clue. > There was that scene in the Jackal where a hacker woman claimed she > could read a card's magnetic strip with a disk drive. I guess it's > possible the more I think about it. I think that a tape recorder head might work for a BART card, . . . --===============1196105083986216475==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 24 16:38:11 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus um Ben. Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 09:37:39 -0700 Message-ID: <87ca162b-784a-99f7-8d24-4394e31a24a9@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1880175322798659195==" --===============1880175322798659195== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-23 6:04 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> > Now, I'm getting 64GB microSD cards for just under $5 each. > > > --Chuck > I just want the cheap $1 16 meg SD cards. To quote Dr Who. "The original you might say." I have project uses small magnetic media, like a RK05. More I look at DEC's PDP 11 I see it less friendly than the PDP/8. The PDP 8, was one simple box you could get cheap used. The 11 is mess of mix and match components that always had a big commercial price tag. The only thing that was personal was the Heath Kit 11, and that had no mmu and only 8" floppies. Expanded memory with a MMU was really pushed for computers with a 16 bit address space. PDP 11,6809,8086,Z8000 in the late 70's, early 80's. Hindsight has proven you need a real non segmented address space of 20+ bits, like 68000,386. I have FPGA design, that has 19 bit address space with no mmu, as simple 32 bit cpu with 8 registers plus a PC. The base machine uses ~ 48 kb for user programs and ~32Kb for a very basic O/S using a simple FAT for two drives like a RK05. Memory requirements place a TTL version around 1976 using mostek 4096 drams.A 2901 version around 1978, with 16K drams. (The FPGA emulation).A 3 half word floating point format is planned. This is to compete with the PDP 11/PDP 10 using 8 bit bytes. I have nice design using 10 bit bytes to compete with the PDP/10 with a similar opcode layout. Ben. --===============1880175322798659195==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 16:57:40 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Philips P2000C restoration Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 16:56:56 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5364235948690753963==" --===============5364235948690753963== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Philip Belben gave me a Philips P2000C luggable CP/M computer some time back which had not been well-stored. It took a bit of work to get it going again. Here's what I did... The basic desgn is a single-board computer with a Z80A, 64K RAM, 4K ROM (bootstrap and a machine code monitor), floppy disk controller, SASI interface and 3 serial port. One for an external printer, one for communications [1] and one to provide a 19200 baud link to the other main circuit board. This is an intellegent terminal with another Z80A, 32K RAM, video circuitry, keyboard interface and of course a serial port [1] Standards are wonderful, everybody should have one of their own... This serial port is on a DB25 connectorr with the normal RS232 pinout, but normal RS232 cables probably won't work. The reason is that Philips decided to support synchronous operation too. So the serial chp (Z80A-SIO) clocks come from pins 15 and 17 on the connector via level shifters. The baud rate generator (one channel of a Z80A-CTC) is level shifted and comes out on pin 24 of the connector. You therefore need to strap 15-17-24 in the cable plug for normal asynchronous operation. Getting back to the machine, as well as the 2 main boards, there's a switch-mode power supply, a Misubishi 9" green screen CRT monitor (Why not Philips, they were certainly making such things at the time), a pair of Teac FD55 floppy drives (of which more later) anf the'power distribution PCB' to link them all toghether. Oh, and trivial things like the keyboard cable and mains input wiirng. I have the Philips service manual which contains schematcs for the 2 main boards but not the rest. I also have the Teac service manual for the floppy drives. Obvious faults on first inspection were that the mains on/off switch didn't latch properly, there was a lot of corrosion, and the carrying strap was missing. The last is important as to carry the machine you put the keyboard over the front panel, then slot the strap end fittings in place which also retain the keyboard. I took the machine apart and found that the terminal PCB at the back had suffered badly from poor storage. So had the disk drives, the spindle bearings felt very rough. The aluminium chassis had surface corrosion. Screws were very rusty (but standard M3 and M4 parts are not hard to get). The rest didn't look too bad. Time to sort some things out. I traced out the schematics for the power supply, monitor and the power distibution stuff. There were some RIFA 'smokebomb' capacitors on the PSU board which I replaced before they did their antisocial act. Since the mains switch was out of action I coupled a suicide lead to the power supply input pins with a chocolate block and carefully powered it up with a light bulb in series. The power supply worked first time. Tried the monitor board, running it on the bench supply. This powered up too, the high voltages came up but were low. As I didn't have the deflection yoke connected this didn't worry me. So I put the monitor chassis, PCB and CRT bak togther and connected it and the terminal PCB to the units power supply. Powered up, the screen was full of odd characters. It was clear the terminal processor wasn't doing the right things. Some checks showed the data lines on the RAMs were not looking right.Well, a couple were, but not the rest. Cut out the old RAMs, most of the DIL packages fell apart (!), fitted sockets and new 4116s. Corrected one open-circuit PCB trace too. Powered up again ,it seemed to work. Tried connecting the main board. It powered up and even gave the right startup screen asking for a system disk. Of course no drives or keyboard at this point, but it was a good sign. Took the keyboard apart, took off all the keycaps and removed the dregs of many cups of coffee. Put the keycaps back on. The keyboard cable, right-angled 6 pin DIN plugs at each end, was a mess. Insulation crumbling off, green corrosion of the wiring. Fortunately the plugs are not moulded, so I could open them up, remove the dead cable and rewire with a length of 6 core screened. It's not coiled stretchy stuff like the original, but it's electrically fine. Time to sort out the mains switch. I took it apart. An internal, tiny, spring was so badly corroded that it fell apart when I touched it. Other bits didn't look great either. My junk box disgorged an electrically-suitable switch that was actually a spare for a TV set. Only problems were that the pushrod to fit the button onto was 1/8" square (the original one for the P2000C was 3mm) and the mounting was very different. A file cured te first poblem. Fortunately the switch mouting was a little plate screwed to the PSU mounting, so I removed that and milled a block of aluminium to mount the replacement switch. Soldered the mains harness wires to the new swtich. While the chassis was apart I measured up and made some suitable end fittings for the carrying strap. Oriiginals were plastic, I made aluminium ones. Not too hard in that the tongue that goes into the P2000C catch is 30mm wide by 2mm thick and amazingly a local-ish DIY shed had 1m lengths of 2mm aluminium strip 30mm wide in stock. Cut lengths of that, drilled and milled the hole to engage with the catch, fitted a metal block to retain the keyboard and an eyebolt into that to put the strap on. Now to reasemble the chassis. Fitted the mains wirng, keyboard connector, distribution PCB, PSU and monitor. Plugged in the terminal PCB and connected the keyboard. Powered up then reset while holding down. This runs a simple self-test of the terminal board. It failed with a memory problem. I found another bad conneciton, this time a through-board VIA. Soldered a bit of wire through that and the terminal board then passed the self-test. I temporarily fitted it to the chassis so as not to have too many bits hanging on wires. Put the main PCB on top of the chassis, connected the power, reset, and serial connectors. Powered up, got the 'system disk' prompt. Pressed then and was in the machine code monitor. I could display/change memory, etc. It was essentially working. OK, now for the drives. These are Teac FD55A, single sided 40 cylnder. I took them apart one at a time. Not just to the units in the service manuak, I also took the head-load unit apart (tiny torsion springs), the top front chasss (even smaller E-clips), the stepper motor (the front bearing could not be removed without possibly damaging thngs, but the rear came off easily with a puller so I fitted a new ball race here) and the spindle motor (again, new ball races fitted). Got the drives back togther. They ran nicely on the exerciser. Much more smooth than they were when I took them out. Connected them to the Microtest alignment unit and did the head alignment. One oddity was that both spindle motors were slightly slow (about 295 rpm, not 300) but a tweak of the pot on the motor PCB cured that Also set up the disk read VCO on the mainboard as described in the service manual. It was a little off, I am sure it would have worked, but I re-set it anyway. Cabled up drive 0. Powered up and put a 40 cyclnder boot disk in. It booted. DIR worked too. As did running a program off the disk. Unplugged things and removed the terminal PCB. Put the 2 drives in place, fitted their mountings and the chassis top rail. Fitted the main PCB and terminal PCB to the rear chassis plate. cabled everything up. Tried the machine again. It booted. I could format a blank disk in the second drive and copy the CP/M master too it. The copy then booted fine. All that remained was to fit the rear plastic panel and top cover. Stored the boot disk copy and the keyboard cable in the cubbyhole on the front panel and put the keyboard on. Clipped on the carrying strap. It's not quite over... I am pretty sure my strap end fittings are strong enough. Not so sure about the strap itself which is one that came with a sports bag. I may try to get something stronger. I was given a few floppies with the machne. The only one it will read is the 40 cylinder boot disk. Philips, you see made 3 versions of the machine. One had a pair of 40 cylinder single-head drives (160K each). The second had a pair of 80 cylinder double head drivs (640K each). The last had a single 80 cylinder double head drive and apparently you could fit a 10MByte wnchester internally. I know nothing about that really.. Confusingly, the manuals call the 160K drive 'single density' and the 640K one 'double densiry' for all both use MFM encoding. But I digress. My guess is that at least some of the unreadable floppies are 80 cylinder. It would be worth linking up an external drive to see. Time to hunt in the junk box again. Then there's the SASI port. One manual mentioned a hard disk unit to connect there, a 'Xebec board and 1 or 2 10M drives'. My guess is that the former is an S1410, the latter a pair of Shugart ST412s or similar. But it seems crazy to me to try to track down said parts -- the Xebec board has serveral custom ASICs on it, hard drives can headcrash. Or even worst to use a Xebec controller with a drive emulator -- why convert bytes to a curious serial stream on the Xebec board and then back to bytes to store in flash memory on the drive emulator, or vice versa. It would seem logical to simply make a thing that connects to the SASI port, accepts the commands set of said S1410 controller and stores the data in flash memory directly. Any suggestions as to how to do that? Finally, the terminal board has an external video output It's a 5 pn DIN socket, separate syncs and analpgue video (not composite). There is a mention of a 12" monitor in one manual, of course with no model number. Odd, I wouldn't have thought 12" was much of an improvement over the built-in 9" unit. I would have expected something larger to show a group of people at once. But making something to connect to that output is another project. -tony --===============5364235948690753963==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 17:10:08 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Philips P2000C add-ons. Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 17:09:28 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2007800366496825647==" --===============2007800366496825647== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of questions if anyone has experience of this machine : 1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not composite) 4-level analogue video. I believe Philips sold a 12" monitor to connect there. What was the model number? Is a service manual availabe? Has anybody linked other monitors to that socket? 2) There is a 50 pin card edge for a SASI interface. I think the Philips hard disk unit used the Xebec S1410 controller. I've downloaded the user manual for that from bitsavers which at least gives me the command set. Does anyone have experience of a SASI-flash memory interface? Any recomendations for things to look at? Or should I design my own, it doesn't appear too hard? FWIW to tie in to another thread, I like to keep my classic computers original inside the box but am happy to link up non-standard peripherals. So My P2000C will keep its 2 internal floppy drives and CRT monitor. But I would have no problem with hanging an LCD monitor off that video output socket. -tony --===============2007800366496825647==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 17:15:12 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 11:14:31 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <63CEF753.3020704@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7275612160241486904==" --===============7275612160241486904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm all for using original hardware, I enjoy those more than emulators as well. Except, I don't miss old CRTs. Using a modern LCD on a vintage system doesn't bother me. Even on the IBM 5100, I tend to use the external BNC connector adapted to HDMI and unplug the internal CRT. But sometimes the LCD (or the intermediate adapter to VGA/HDMI) might lose something in translation, some slight color hue or graphic effect. To me, I'm somewhat concerned on the "health risk" of CRTs - I know there is no direct evidence about it. But they're fundamentally like old radar systems, using a directed beam. I'm not really that paranoid about it -- but I do try to limit exposure. Old computer labs, with rows and rows and rows of CRTs, always made me wonder how healthy all that was (the collective exposure at multiple angles). But also just that working CRTs are hard to replace, so I'd rather save them for limited/focused presentations. Also, I have no idea of modern LCDs are less "radiating" (EM-wise) than old CRTs - but they're certainly easier to find and connect. I think that transition from "line printers" to "screens" has always been underappreciated - and I've always been curious how in old magazine (late 60s, early 70s), there wasn't more apparent excitement about CRT/screens. There was no clever term like "digital paper" or "electronic paper" - it just became "the screen." I guess once the microprocessor was developed, all the excitement was focused around that. And, for me, same for old mechanical drives: I don't mind the SD emulations. It is nice to hear the original drive sound, or to actually show concepts like "flipping a disk over." The whole idea of using magnetic phase to store bits is still fascinating to me - but then, vinyl records are also fascinating to me (mankind figured out a way to precisely mold a microscopic groove that corresponds to a desired audio effect, that's wild). Still, read/write heads do eventually fail, and disk media itself gets harder and harder to source. I think the SD emulators have made the hobby more approachable to me - I want to see software cranked through a processor; how the software got loaded into main memory is of less interest to me (give me an interface and I'll just POKE machine code directly into memory, or make some MCU device to type it in for me). As others have said, for "intense" software development I'd rather use an emulator, to save "wear and tear" on the original vintage equipment. Which brings me to another point: "large" computers have always been used to help make the next smaller computers. Machines-making-machines indeed. The original building-size "hulking giants" helped make the minis, which helped make the micros (emulators on the PDP-11/8's or S/360's), and today we use our micros to dev/emulate MCUs (because all the development tools are more matured in the "next up" larger system from the prior pioneering work). One last thing: I've pondered vintage computing is like finding old Roman artifacts. Like a chariot. As-is, it's fairly useless - you'd need horses to pull the thing. Or, "emulated" horses. But finding such a thing, in complete or operational condition, gives witness that such things did exist -- the craftmanship of it, bound to the talent and time that they had to build/engineer it. And that, "has value" it telling and verifying our history. -Steve On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:18 PM js--- via cctalk wrote: > > Would a few people here be willing to share their approaches to their > collection? > > I'll start. I've collected a variety of mainly DEC, HP, and Apple > machines, and have restored or repaired them slowly over time. However, > as they fail from now on, I will *not* be doing modern upgrades or > repairs. As they die, so shall they be retired or given away. > > > --===============7275612160241486904==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 24 17:32:28 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 09:31:54 -0800 Message-ID: <8c1ce65e-0155-7792-c30e-6ccfeb0b4a44@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1984536469172451831==" --===============1984536469172451831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/24/23 09:14, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > One last thing: I've pondered vintage computing is like finding old Roman > artifacts. The big difference is that many of us old Romans are still alive. --Chuck --===============1984536469172451831==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Jan 24 17:35:25 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 12:34:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8893893-c1b-87b9-e11b-1e836e8bb773@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9181037442139434987==" --===============9181037442139434987== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/24/2023 4:25 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Don R wrote: >> From NYT website: >> >> You?ve reached your limit of free articles. >> >> Purchase a subscription yadda-yadda > > Delete your cookies and web site caches ;-) > (hint: install "Cookie Autodelete" browser add on) An easier solution is to stop reading the NYT. bill --===============9181037442139434987==-- From js@cimmeri.com Tue Jan 24 17:35:44 2023 From: js@cimmeri.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (CRT Risk) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 12:29:22 -0500 Message-ID: <63D01572.7050705@cimmeri.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1224793309306764875==" --===============1224793309306764875== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/24/2023 12:14 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > To me, I'm somewhat concerned on the "health risk" of CRTs - I know there > is no direct evidence about it. But they're fundamentally like old radar > systems, using a directed beam. I'm a bit rusty on the subject, but as far as I understand it, monochrome CRTS generally have a low enough "high voltage" that you don't get into x-ray radiation. Luckily, you have control over the beam intensity. Keeping your image brightness as low as possible helps. By dimming the image, fewer electrons are flying at the screen. Color CRTs have a much higher CRT voltage, and you'll see warnings in them about the potential for x-ray radiation. Again, keeping the images dimmer helps to lower the potential for (or the amount of) any radiation. Both CRT types emit high frequency electro-magnetic fields, so if magnetic fields or EMF worry you, that's something to consider, but the fields follow the inverse square law on their strength. 6 ft away from such a screen, the fields are not very strong. - John --===============1224793309306764875==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 18:13:42 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 18:12:59 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0454447533817707021==" --===============0454447533817707021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've skimmed the thread about making images of floppy disks. I want to do the reverse. But I had better explain. There are 2 subsets of computers here. The larger subset -- all but one of the machines -- are classic computers. These machines tend to hve real floppy drives and RS232 ports and not much else.These machines I understand. I have service/technical manuals. I have schematics. I can generally figure out how to program them. The other set contains one machine. A modern-ish (for me) PC laptop. It has USB ports. It gets me on the internet (it is the only internet-connected machine at the moment). It does not have floppy drives [1]. I do have a USB-RS232 interface -- first thing I bought for it. I have no proper manuals for it. I do not know how to program it or interface it. [1] I think I have a USB floppy drive somewhere, but it'll be a '1.44Mbyte' [2] 3.5" thing. A type of drive conspiculously absent on my classic machines. [2] In quotes becuase it is, of course, nothing of the sort. Well, not unless you believe a megabyte is 1000*1024 bytes. Given that the floppy disk images are going to come on the latter machine, what is the easiest way to get them onto real floppy disks for my classics. I think it's reasonable to assume they'll be FM or MFM encoded at the standard rates and that I will have drives capable of handling the disk. FM of couse rules out using some PC disk controllers. I do of course have no objections to making stuff, but I'd rather not start trying to interface a WD2793 to a Raspberry Pi if there's a standard way to do things. -tony --===============0454447533817707021==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue Jan 24 18:16:45 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 12:16:17 -0600 Message-ID: <97e935a9-7b8a-d207-8b8e-3faf1da8c313@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0760542069813382246==" --===============0760542069813382246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/24/2023 12:12 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > I've skimmed the thread about making images of floppy disks. I want to > do the reverse. Greaseweazle will do this.  Use the same HW setup as for imaging, but instruct the GW software to write an image to physical disk. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============0760542069813382246==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 18:23:55 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 18:23:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <97e935a9-7b8a-d207-8b8e-3faf1da8c313@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2325758989898062604==" --===============2325758989898062604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:16 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/24/2023 12:12 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > I've skimmed the thread about making images of floppy disks. I want to > > do the reverse. > Greaseweazle will do this. Use the same HW setup as for imaging, but > instruct the GW software to write an image to physical disk. From what I understand the Greaseweazle works by measuring the times between pulses on the Read Data line, So presumably for writing it outputs a series of pulses with the right spacing. Does software exist to turn a disk image (as in a ,imd file) into suitable timing data for this? -tony > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > --===============2325758989898062604==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 18:35:34 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C add-ons. Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 18:34:58 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7696630349699164430==" --===============7696630349699164430== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 5:09 PM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > A couple of questions if anyone has experience of this machine : > > 1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video > monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European > TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not > composite) 4-level analogue video. > > I believe Philips sold a 12" monitor to connect there. What was the > model number? Is a service manual availabe? > > Has anybody linked other monitors to that socket? Hi Tony, I enjoyed the restoration description :) Maybe the popular CM8333 ? I think it was also badged - perhaps with a different interface - as the Commodore 1084. It kind of took over from the BBC Microvitec Cub (15kHz, TTL RGB) as an early Archimedes colour monitor. https://blog.roberthargreaves.com/2016/04/16/cm8833-repair I have a Logica VTS Kennet 2400 from about 1985. It was an MS-DOS machine when those could exist without being PC-compatible. It also had SASI : the interface isn't much more than buffer and latch, but formed the basis for SCSI. We used either a Xebec controller or Adaptec. with ST506 discs. It's a very simple interface, a subset and predecessor of SCSI I think. I have extensive manuals for the machine which include the SASI interface and the command set. I did have a SASI controller on it at one time - it might still be there. --===============7696630349699164430==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 18:46:35 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C add-ons. Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 18:45:40 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8025073006908216042==" --===============8025073006908216042== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:35 PM Adrian Godwin wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 5:09 PM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> >> A couple of questions if anyone has experience of this machine : >> >> 1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video >> monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European >> TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not >> composite) 4-level analogue video. >> >> I believe Philips sold a 12" monitor to connect there. What was the >> model number? Is a service manual availabe? >> >> Has anybody linked other monitors to that socket? > > > Hi Tony, > I enjoyed the restoration description :) > > Maybe the popular CM8333 ? I think it was also badged - perhaps with a diff= erent interface - as the Commodore 1084. > It kind of took over from the BBC Microvitec Cub (15kHz, TTL RGB) as an ear= ly Archimedes colour monitor. I know it well, but it is unlikely to be the monitor I am looking for here : It's colour (and the P2000C is clearly a monochrome output).While that it no real barrier, I doubt Philips would have wasted a colour CRT in that way I has a SCART socket so either composite PAL video (if you have the decoder stuff fitted, a lot do not) or analogue RGB with composite sync.So not a direct connection to the P2000C's separate syncs Is it 12"? Something is telling me it's a 14" CRT but I am not gong to dig mine out to check. The service manual implies it is over 12" diagonal. > > https://blog.roberthargreaves.com/2016/04/16/cm8833-repair > > I have a Logica VTS Kennet 2400 from about 1985. It was an MS-DOS machine w= hen those could exist without being PC-compatible. It also had SASI : the in= terface isn't much more than buffer and latch, but formed the basis for SCSI.= We used either a Xebec controller or Adaptec. with ST506 discs. It's a very = simple interface, a subset and predecessor of SCSI I think. I have extensive= manuals for the machine which include the SASI interface and the command se= t. I did have a SASI controller on it at one time - it might still be there. The Phlips service manual for the P2000C includes the schematics of the SASI interfae on the main PCB. It's simple, mostly TTL I/O ports. I can't believe the device-side interface is any worse. And assuming I'm right about the Xebec board I have the command set too. -tony --===============8025073006908216042==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Jan 24 18:46:59 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 18:46:29 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2224772415282739087==" --===============2224772415282739087== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe go another way and use one of those usb disk adapters to copy the hard = disks that can be placed as second disks on the classics and floppies burned = from there? Or maybe try to get a serial/parallel zip drive that works on the= classics ? If the classics support IDE, it should be easy.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 24, 2023, at 10:23, Tony Duell via cctalk = wrote: > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:16 PM Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: >>=20 >> On 1/24/2023 12:12 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>> I've skimmed the thread about making images of floppy disks. I want to >>> do the reverse. >> Greaseweazle will do this. Use the same HW setup as for imaging, but >> instruct the GW software to write an image to physical disk. >=20 > From what I understand the Greaseweazle works by measuring the times > between pulses on the Read Data line, So presumably for writing it > outputs a series of pulses with the right spacing. >=20 > Does software exist to turn a disk image (as in a ,imd file) into > suitable timing data for this? >=20 > -tony >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Jim >>=20 >> -- >> Jim Brain >> brain(a)jbrain.com >> www.jbrain.com --===============2224772415282739087==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 19:02:54 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C add-ons. Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 19:02:17 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1163802882917572388==" --===============1163802882917572388== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:46 PM Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> 1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video > >> monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European > >> TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not > >> composite) 4-level analogue video. > > I know it well, but it is unlikely to be the monitor I am looking for here > : > > It's colour (and the P2000C is clearly a monochrome output).While that > it no real barrier, I doubt Philips would have wasted a colour CRT in > that way > > I missed that. So it was pinned for colour but only used mono ?There was another Philips monitor in the same or similar case. I've seen it in both Green and Amber phosphors. This was also used on the Beeb when colour was too expensive. I can't remember the number now though.That was almost certainly composite though - but it was such a common monitor it's quite possible there was a separate-sync version. > > > Is it 12"? Something is telling me it's a 14" CRT but I am not gong to > dig mine out to check. The service manual implies it is over 12" > diagonal. > > You're right. Mine has 13" visible so probably a 14" tube. And although the mono might have been smaller, that case shape is so embedded in my memory that I think they must have been 14" too - a 12" version would have looked amusingly miniaturised. > > --===============1163802882917572388==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 19:16:32 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C add-ons. Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 19:15:50 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1155561870290603026==" --===============1155561870290603026== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 7:02 PM Adrian Godwin wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:46 PM Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >> >> >> 1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video >> >> monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European >> >> TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not >> >> composite) 4-level analogue video. >> >> I know it well, but it is unlikely to be the monitor I am looking for here= : >> >> It's colour (and the P2000C is clearly a monochrome output).While that >> it no real barrier, I doubt Philips would have wasted a colour CRT in >> that way >> > I missed that. So it was pinned for colour but only used mono ? The P2000C is a monochome system. The built-in monitor is a green screen (P31 phosphor) 9" CRT. The terminal board can output 4 intensity levels, either for things like highlighted text or in grpahics mode (there's 256*252 in 4 levels or 512*252 in 2 levels). The video output socket is essentially the same signals as go to the internal monitor, although separately buffered. There re 5 pins on the video socket. They are (in some order) Ground Horizonal Sync Vertical Sync Analogue Video and, I think, dot clock. No colour at all. > There was another Philips monitor in the same or similar case. I've seen it= in both Green and Amber phosphors. This was also used on the Beeb when colou= r was too expensive. I can't remember the number now though.That was almost c= ertainly composite though - but it was such a common monitor it's quite possi= ble there was a separate-sync version. My thought is that having provided this rather unusual video output, they would have produced a monitor for it. But while I can find minimal details (like it was a 12" CRT), I can't find a model number mentioned anywhere. Nor any web page that shows it. >> >> >> >> Is it 12"? Something is telling me it's a 14" CRT but I am not gong to >> dig mine out to check. The service manual implies it is over 12" >> diagonal. >> > > You're right. Mine has 13" visible so probably a 14" tube. And although the= mono might have been smaller, that case shape is so embedded in my memory th= at I think they must have been 14" too - a 12" version would have looked amus= ingly miniaturised. The CRT is an M34EAQ10X according to the CM8833 service manual. The 'M' indicates a colour screen and he '34' is the diagonal in cm I think. So about 13.3" To be honest I find the 12" monitor for the P2000C somewhat odd. It's not a major size increase over the intenral 9" thing. I would have thought a much larger monitor, e.g. to show to a group, would have been more use. -tony --===============1155561870290603026==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue Jan 24 19:47:08 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 13:46:34 -0600 Message-ID: <982c2bd5-4065-47af-eabc-bd40a188aa79@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7945267312599052554==" --===============7945267312599052554== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/24/2023 12:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:16 PM Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: >> On 1/24/2023 12:12 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>> I've skimmed the thread about making images of floppy disks. I want to >>> do the reverse. >> Greaseweazle will do this. Use the same HW setup as for imaging, but >> instruct the GW software to write an image to physical disk. > From what I understand the Greaseweazle works by measuring the times > between pulses on the Read Data line, So presumably for writing it > outputs a series of pulses with the right spacing. > > Does software exist to turn a disk image (as in a ,imd file) into > suitable timing data for this? > > -tony Looks like a few tools will do so: https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/a-way-to-convert-imd-to-img.1237774= /post-1246165 You just need to get the IMD to be an IMG file, and then GW will create=20 the flux and timing info from that image file. Jim --===============7945267312599052554==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Tue Jan 24 19:48:10 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C add-ons. Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 13:47:43 -0600 Message-ID: <715521073.1304913.1674589663113@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2437927466807499301==" --===============2437927466807499301== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 01/24/2023 11:09 AM CST Tony Duell via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > A couple of questions if anyone has experience of this machine : >=20 > 1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video > monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European > TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not > composite) 4-level analogue video. >=20 > I believe Philips sold a 12" monitor to connect there. What was the > model number? Is a service manual availabe? >=20 > Has anybody linked other monitors to that socket? >=20 In the US in the late 80s and 90s, there were a crap ton of similar monitors = (without case) sold on the surplus market. I had one. I believe they were m= ostly Mitsubishi / Panasonic. Most of them were 9" with a lesser number of 1= 2". They had an edge connector for the power, ground, H sync, V sync, and vi= deo inputs. Of course, in the US, they were 15750 / 60 Hz sync. I can only = guess what their original purpose was, but they were easy to connect to a PC = RGB video card (four resistors got you 16 gray shades.) So that interface wa= sn't too uncommon. Perhaps there is/was something similar available on the o= ther side of the pond? =20 Maybe the reason you can't find any trace of the Philips add-on is for the sa= me reasons you suggest -- marketing realized it was of little value prior to = releasing it. > 2) There is a 50 pin card edge for a SASI interface. I think the > Philips hard disk unit used the Xebec S1410 controller. I've > downloaded the user manual for that from bitsavers which at least > gives me the command set. >=20 > Does anyone have experience of a SASI-flash memory interface? Any > recomendations for things to look at? Or should I design my own, it > doesn't appear too hard? >=20 I have an Ampro Little Board Plus, which is a single-board Z80 computer the s= ize of a 5 1/4" disk drive. The "plus" means it has a SCSI interface. A cou= ple of years ago I was planning to build a flash disk for it and dug through = a lot of specs and bios code. Original SCSI was almost identical to SASI and= they were often interchangeable. The protocol is rather simple, as you stat= ed. What I found in the Ampro bios code was that for reading and writing onl= y about 4 commands were used. Another small number were used for formatting.= I think, iirc, there were two types of read and two types of write. I neve= r got around to building the thing, but it should be pretty simple. I would = also be rather surprised if no one else has done it. But if you have the P-2= 000 bios code, you could take a look. I suspect it would be very similar to = the Ampro code. Will --===============2437927466807499301==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Tue Jan 24 19:52:46 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 11:52:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <982c2bd5-4065-47af-eabc-bd40a188aa79@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6413980473223859872==" --===============6413980473223859872== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:46 AM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > Looks like a few tools will do so: > > > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/a-way-to-convert-imd-to-img.12377= 74/post-1246165 > > You just need to get the IMD to be an IMG file, and then GW will create > the flux and timing info from that image file. > > Jim > disk-utilities supports IMD files in read and write. I thought it was a pretty core part of GW (same author). https://github.com/keirf/Disk-Utilities --===============6413980473223859872==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Jan 24 21:12:46 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C add-ons. Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 16:12:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <715521073.1304913.1674589663113@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2330498255136488123==" --===============2330498255136488123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/24/2023 2:47 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > In the US in the late 80s and 90s, there were a crap ton of similar monitor= s (without case) sold on the surplus market. I had one. Wow, that's a scary memory.=C2=A0 I had one as well.=C2=A0 Don't even remembe= r=20 what I used it for. bill --===============2330498255136488123==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 24 21:22:40 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (CRT Risk) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 13:22:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <63D01572.7050705@cimmeri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3002234471859869420==" --===============3002234471859869420== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/24/2023 12:14 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > To me, I'm somewhat concerned on the "health risk" of CRTs - I know there > is no direct evidence about it. But they're fundamentally like old radar > systems, using a directed beam. Never mind radiation, etc. TVs damage the brain! (due to the content of the shows) --===============3002234471859869420==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 24 21:26:12 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 13:25:42 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3893243552998644848==" --===============3893243552998644848== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > [1] I think I have a USB floppy drive somewhere, but it'll be a > '1.44Mbyte' [2] 3.5" thing. A type of drive conspiculously absent on > my classic machines. The first NEC external 3.5" USB drive (UF0001) cabled USB into a normal 765 inside the drive case, connected to a normal 1.4M 3.5" drive! If you can find one of THOSE, . . . > [2] In quotes becuase it is, of course, nothing of the sort. Well, not > unless you believe a megabyte is 1000*1024 bytes. But it is close enough to call it a "1.4M" drive (instead of 1.44) --===============3893243552998644848==-- From doc@vaxen.net Tue Jan 24 21:26:58 2023 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (CRT Risk) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 15:26:31 -0600 Message-ID: <56769202-e74b-3122-07d8-08be587846e6@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4644303527042839607==" --===============4644303527042839607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/24/23 15:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On 1/24/2023 12:14 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >> To me, I'm somewhat concerned on the "health risk" of CRTs - I know there >> is no direct evidence about it.  But they're fundamentally like old radar >> systems, using a directed beam. > > Never mind radiation, etc. > > TVs damage the brain! This Subject: line is damaging my brain. Doc --===============4644303527042839607==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 21:46:52 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C add-ons. Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 21:46:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558064A87A08EF789064041CEDC99=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0599652703850404144==" --===============0599652703850404144== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit !Chassis monitors". Built for things like ATMs. On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 9:12 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 1/24/2023 2:47 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > In the US in the late 80s and 90s, there were a crap ton of similar > monitors (without case) sold on the surplus market. I had one. > > > Wow, that's a scary memory. I had one as well. Don't even remember > what I used it > > for. > > > bill > > > --===============0599652703850404144==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Tue Jan 24 22:20:16 2023 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 17:19:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3501126176183395931==" --===============3501126176183395931== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 6:09 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I submit that the //gs isn't even really an Apple ][ properly. > It's more like a quasi-Macintosh with really good (not perfect) built-in > emulation of an Enhanced //e. That totally makes sense. I never got into the //gs and that kind of frames it: I'd rather just use a //e (which is still late for me) or a ][+ but that's because I first used them back in the Integer BASIC days (and watched friends do the DOS 3.2->3.3 conversion) then used them heavily in 1984. It's just where my experience falls. -ethan > Sellam --===============3501126176183395931==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Jan 24 23:28:44 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 18:28:18 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7736035139777711900==" --===============7736035139777711900== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I know people seemed kind of turned off by the idea of GOTEK floppy disk emulators, but you do realize if you actually have the machine you are wanting to make disks for the GOTEK is a great way to do it.  Put a GOTEK and a real drive on the machine and just use backup.  Then, for the purists, take the GOTEK back off and hide it in a drawer. bill --===============7736035139777711900==-- From doc@vaxen.net Tue Jan 24 23:39:34 2023 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 17:39:05 -0600 Message-ID: <9648c9ac-57a3-752d-5fbf-a5621140d05a@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580A03F91A8FC6FCE8D6A5EEDC99=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8486262205850272278==" --===============8486262205850272278== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/24/23 17:28, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I know people seemed kind of turned off by the idea of GOTEK floppy disk > emulators, > > but you do realize if you actually have the machine you are wanting to > make disks for > > the GOTEK is a great way to do it.  Put a GOTEK and a real drive on the > machine and just > > use backup.  Then, for the purists, take the GOTEK back off and hide it > in a drawer. This - a gotek and an original-format floppy drive - is my standard setup for machines that support multiple floppy drives. I could write a small essay on all the ways this works for me, but they mostly boil down to one choice. Sometimes I want the whole experience, complete with noise and chatter and blinky amber lights, and sometimes I want to just get it done and move on. Example: Installing WFW 3.11. Been here, done this, way too many times. Gotek. Doc --===============8486262205850272278==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Jan 25 00:34:47 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 00:33:56 +0000 Message-ID: <854463538.201012.1674606836705@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0003242432440282651==" --===============0003242432440282651== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 2" LT-1 disk was apparently also made by Panasonic. Wondering if other devices used it. --===============0003242432440282651==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 02:41:54 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 20:41:14 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0e11acba2dbc4d8bb1a2c75ba192b439@syssrc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5164119264708568196==" --===============5164119264708568196== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is there a public article about this? I know it's a recent announcement, but I couldn't find the article. I'm not doubting the article, just wanted to share a link with some friends about it. BTW, I've wondered if some form of stenography could be used for software development. In my mind, it would make sense to just program directly in a kind of Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) from the beginning - why bother with all the syntaxic sugar and peddling ascii text characters around a file to form a program. So now I wonder if "building" a program using an AST might be possible in VR.. you "grab" a FOR loop virtually from a box on the left, add it to your program tree, and build out from there decorating the tree.... On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 3:33 PM rar via cctalk wrote: > Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney > > January 19, 2023, Hunt Valley, MD — Staff members of the System Source > Computer Museum recently completed a project that helped exonerate David > Veney, wrongly convicted of rape in 1997. In 2005, after Mr. Veney sought a > new trial, the state found irregularities in the prosecution, released Mr. > Veney from prison, and declined to re-prosecute. > > --===============5164119264708568196==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 04:25:51 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C add-ons. Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 04:25:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <715521073.1304913.1674589663113@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5213815340150717101==" --===============5213815340150717101== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 7:47 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > > On 01/24/2023 11:09 AM CST Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > A couple of questions if anyone has experience of this machine : > > > > 1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video > > monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European > > TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not > > composite) 4-level analogue video. > > > > I believe Philips sold a 12" monitor to connect there. What was the > > model number? Is a service manual availabe? > > > > Has anybody linked other monitors to that socket? > > > > In the US in the late 80s and 90s, there were a crap ton of similar monitor= s (without case) sold on the surplus market. I had one. I believe they were= mostly Mitsubishi / Panasonic. Most of them were 9" with a lesser number of= 12". They had an edge connector for the power, ground, H sync, V sync, and = video inputs. Of course, in the US, they were 15750 / 60 Hz sync. I can onl= y guess what their original purpose was, but they were easy to connect to a P= C RGB video card (four resistors got you 16 gray shades.) So that interface = wasn't too uncommon. Perhaps there is/was something similar available on the= other side of the pond? Quite common, over here too. The interface is normally a 10 pin 0.156" edge connector carrying the signals you mention along with ground, +12V and (often) 3 wires to the brightness control. In fact the VT100 terminal has such a monitor PCB inside it. The internal monitor of the P2000C is similar, it has a header connector with +12V, ground, syncs, video on it. Oddly it's a Mitsubishi unit, for all Philips were making suitable CRTs, flyback transformers, etc at the time. > Maybe the reason you can't find any trace of the Philips add-on is for the = same reasons you suggest -- marketing realized it was of little value prior t= o releasing it. > > > > 2) There is a 50 pin card edge for a SASI interface. I think the > > Philips hard disk unit used the Xebec S1410 controller. I've > > downloaded the user manual for that from bitsavers which at least > > gives me the command set. > > > > Does anyone have experience of a SASI-flash memory interface? Any > > recomendations for things to look at? Or should I design my own, it > > doesn't appear too hard? > > > > I have an Ampro Little Board Plus, which is a single-board Z80 computer the= size of a 5 1/4" disk drive. The "plus" means it has a SCSI interface. A c= ouple of years ago I was planning to build a flash disk for it and dug throug= h a lot of specs and bios code. Original SCSI was almost identical to SASI a= nd they were often interchangeable. The protocol is rather simple, as you st= ated. What I found in the Ampro bios code was that for reading and writing o= nly about 4 commands were used. Another small number were used for formattin= g. I think, iirc, there were two types of read and two types of write. I ne= ver got around to building the thing, but it should be pretty simple. I woul= d also be rather surprised if no one else has done it. But if you have the P= -2000 bios code, you could take a look. I suspect it would be very similar t= o the Ampro code. Alas there is no source of either the CBIOS or the boot ROM in any of the P2000C manuals and I suspect such source was never released. But it should be possible to kludge up something to do the SASI handshake and see just what does come out of that port when I try to boot from a hard disk or whatever. -tony --===============5213815340150717101==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 05:50:03 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 21:49:23 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8803180056888065160==" --===============8803180056888065160== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:41 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > BTW, I've wondered if some form of stenography could be used for software > development. In my mind, it would make sense to just program directly in > a kind of Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) from the beginning - why bother with > all the syntaxic sugar and peddling ascii text characters around a file to > form a program. So now I wonder if "building" a program using an AST > might be possible in VR.. you "grab" a FOR loop virtually from a box on the > left, add it to your program tree, and build out from there decorating the > tree.... > Are you familiar with Google Scratch? https://scratch.mit.edu/ Add the VR interface and you basically have what you describe. Sellam --===============8803180056888065160==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 05:52:07 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 21:51:28 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8561001167236558443==" --===============8561001167236558443== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ugh, forgive me. I have no idea why I called it "Google" Scratch. It's just Scratch, and it comes out of the MIT Media Lab. Sellam On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 9:49 PM Sellam Abraham wrote: > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:41 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> BTW, I've wondered if some form of stenography could be used for software >> development. In my mind, it would make sense to just program directly in >> a kind of Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) from the beginning - why bother with >> all the syntaxic sugar and peddling ascii text characters around a file to >> form a program. So now I wonder if "building" a program using an AST >> might be possible in VR.. you "grab" a FOR loop virtually from a box on >> the >> left, add it to your program tree, and build out from there decorating the >> tree.... >> > > Are you familiar with Google Scratch? > > https://scratch.mit.edu/ > > Add the VR interface and you basically have what you describe. > > Sellam > --===============8561001167236558443==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 07:42:04 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 15:41:25 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3923043613491353261==" --===============3923043613491353261== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Tony for your well written and informative post describing the restoration of a Philips P2000C luggable. I wish there would be more posts like yours. Best regards Tom On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 12:57 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Philip Belben gave me a Philips P2000C luggable CP/M computer some > time back which had not been well-stored. It took a bit of work to get > it going > again. Here's what I did... > .. > -tony > --===============3923043613491353261==-- From mattislind@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 07:44:31 2023 From: Mattis Lind To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C add-ons. Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 08:43:33 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1115229783337394286==" --===============1115229783337394286== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > I have an Ampro Little Board Plus, which is a single-board Z80 computer > the size of a 5 1/4" disk drive. The "plus" means it has a SCSI > interface. A couple of years ago I was planning to build a flash disk for > it and dug through a lot of specs and bios code. Original SCSI was almost > identical to SASI and they were often interchangeable. The protocol is > rather simple, as you stated. What I found in the Ampro bios code was that > for reading and writing only about 4 commands were used. Another small > number were used for formatting. I think, iirc, there were two types of > read and two types of write. I never got around to building the thing, but > it should be pretty simple. I would also be rather surprised if no one > else has done it. But if you have the P-2000 bios code, you could take a > look. I suspect it would be very similar to the Ampro code. > > Alas there is no source of either the CBIOS or the boot ROM in any of > the P2000C manuals and I suspect such source was never released. But > it should be possible to kludge up something to do the SASI handshake > and see just what does come out of that port when I try to boot from a > hard disk or whatever. > SCSI2SD has been around for many years. There are a few variants of it. I think version 5 is still the one that is compatible with more systems than the others. There is also the BlueSCSI-project (a fork of the ArdSCSIno-STM32 project) which has evolved during the past few years. Since SCSI basically is a superset of SASI they should work. They at least work in my ABC1600 which has a very basic SASI interface. And then there is another project called RaSCSI/PiSCSI which is using a RaspberryPi of some sort to emulate SCSI. Pick whatever you feel comfortable with (and is available - the chip shortage is a big problem for many of these devices) /Mattis > > -tony > --===============1115229783337394286==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Wed Jan 25 07:52:52 2023 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 08:52:24 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1048404812472114029==" --===============1048404812472114029== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting and detailed description, thanks ! my P2000C "restauration" was much simpler : I picked it up, including carrying case and all the original disks,=C2=A0 fro= m the e-waste ( illegally..) and found it be be in pristine condition, It booted straight up.... Jos --===============1048404812472114029==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 25 08:09:37 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 09:09:01 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1066335815.1094973.1674568050296@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2293295970709521224==" --===============2293295970709521224== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, can you *please* correctly indent and cite messages you are=20 referring to? I am getting annoyed by guessing what part is from whom. Christian On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com wrote: > On Monday, January 23, 2023, 09:58:07 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > sorry, never had one. > > Chuck might know the cookie coercivity specs! > > 8" and 5.25" were 300 Oersted > 5.25" HD was 600 Oersted > I think that 720K 3.5" was about 600 Oersted > and 1.4M was about 720-750, being close enough that that was why you could > sometimes get away with using a 720K disk as a 1.4M > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_density > has a chart, but not sure if all of the sources are reliable > and does not include 2.5" > > C: Remember though they are 2" disks. And shootimg from the hip, if coerciv= ity wasn't on spec, would a) would that pose a threat to the disk dribe's cir= cuitry. And b) could the circuit be tweaked to work with what's there. > > I'm not sure how this could be worked out, but it seems to me there could b= e a way to modify a drive so that it could measure a disk's coercivity. > > There was that scene in the Jackal where a hacker woman claimed she could r= ead a card's magnetic strip with a disk drive. I guess it's possible the more= I think about it. --===============2293295970709521224==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 25 08:23:31 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 09:23:04 +0100 Message-ID: <41a330f2-43e9-7417-68c0-cfbb8d35528@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580A03F91A8FC6FCE8D6A5EEDC99=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2876229730625643880==" --===============2876229730625643880== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > I know people seemed kind of turned off by the idea of GOTEK floppy disk > emulators, but you do realize if you actually have the machine you are > wanting to make disks for the GOTEK is a great way to do it.  Put a > GOTEK and a real drive on the machine and just use backup.  Then, for > the purists, take the GOTEK back off and hide it in a drawer. A fully valid setup. But for me, I doubt that it would make my life easier because I do have the means to create standard IBM format floppies on my PC. I don't know it, but does the GOTEK support raw images with timing, sector and index information? If it supported e.g. hard sectored non-standard disk images, then this would definitely catch my attention! :-) Christian --===============2876229730625643880==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 10:09:22 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 10:08:44 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7488326692551479399==" --===============7488326692551479399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 7:52 AM jos via cctalk wrot= e: > > > Interesting and detailed description, thanks ! > > my P2000C "restauration" was much simpler : > > I picked it up, including carrying case and all the original disks, from t= he e-waste ( illegally..) and found it be be in pristine condition, > > It booted straight up.... Where's the fun in that? -tony --===============7488326692551479399==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 10:28:06 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 10:27:24 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5751681099412511497==" --===============5751681099412511497== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 7:41 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Thank you Tony for your well written and informative post describing the > restoration of a Philips P2000C luggable. > I wish there would be more posts like yours. Thanks. I've put a few photos of the machine (in bits) in my flickr account here : https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72177720304931970 Feel free to take a look. -tony --===============5751681099412511497==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Wed Jan 25 10:41:38 2023 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 11:41:09 +0100 Message-ID: <8c2507c4-398a-f7b6-a8fe-647c05784120@greenmail.ch> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6042668565624919697==" --===============6042668565624919697== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 25.01.23 11:08, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 7:52 AM jos via cctalk wr= ote: >> >> Interesting and detailed description, thanks ! >> >> my P2000C "restauration" was much simpler : >> >> I picked it up, including carrying case and all the original disks, from = the e-waste ( illegally..) and found it be be in pristine condition, >> >> It booted straight up.... > Where's the fun in that? > > -tony Not much, agreed. But plenty of other stuff here to keep me occupied well unt= il I am 130 years old ! --===============6042668565624919697==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 11:05:17 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 11:04:38 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8c2507c4-398a-f7b6-a8fe-647c05784120@greenmail.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1303702883157448728==" --===============1303702883157448728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 10:41 AM jos via cctalk wro= te: > >> It booted straight up.... > > Where's the fun in that? > > > > > Not much, agreed. But plenty of other stuff here to keep me occupied well u= ntil I am 130 years old ! Oh yes, same with me. More projects than I could ever complete. But my house has a finite volume. So I try not to buy things that are of little interest. -tony --===============1303702883157448728==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 11:35:57 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 11:35:07 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4746432063600360003==" --===============4746432063600360003== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 10:27 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I've put a few photos of the machine (in bits) in my flickr account here : > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72177720304931970 > > > Nice ! Very thorough cleaning of the disc drive ! But I'm curious about the eye-bolts. I assume not original. Do you hang it from the ceiling ? --===============4746432063600360003==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 11:44:05 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 11:43:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7272416768474626266==" --===============7272416768474626266== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 11:35 AM Adrian Godwin wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 10:27 AM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> I've put a few photos of the machine (in bits) in my flickr account here : >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72177720304931970 >> >> > > Nice ! Very thorough cleaning of the disc drive ! Don't try that unless you have an alignment disk and know how to use it! > But I'm curious about the eye-bolts. I assume not original. Do you hang it = from the ceiling ? No, they're for the non-original carrying strap. The strap is essential as the end fittings hold the keyboard in place when the machine is stored. Not having the originals, I made some replacements from aluminium strip and bar. The eyebolts are fittted into tapped holes in the bars. I then clipped the shoulder strap from a sports bag type thing onto the eyebolts to be able to carry the machine. To be honest the strap doesn't feel strong enough. I am pretty sure _my_ metal parts are at least as strong as the original plastic ones, but I will try to get a better strap before I carry the machine about too much. Calling the machine 'portable' is stretching things a bit too. It's heaver than a lot of the desktop machines I have (albeit the latter without monitor and keyboard). I feel the P2000C was portable in the sense that you could carry it from the office/lab to the lift, down in the lift to the car park and put it in the boot of your car to take it home or for an off-site job. Not portable in the sense that you'd take it across the country on public transport. -tony --===============7272416768474626266==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 25 12:39:45 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 05:39:17 -0700 Message-ID: <6d74d761-7192-500c-8772-3442bd6d98d2@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8342335268624924066==" --===============8342335268624924066== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-24 10:49 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:41 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> BTW, I've wondered if some form of stenography could be used for software >> development. In my mind, it would make sense to just program directly in >> a kind of Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) from the beginning - why bother with >> all the syntaxic sugar and peddling ascii text characters around a file to >> form a program. So now I wonder if "building" a program using an AST >> might be possible in VR.. you "grab" a FOR loop virtually from a box on the >> left, add it to your program tree, and build out from there decorating the >> tree.... >> > > Are you familiar with Google Scratch? > > https://scratch.mit.edu/ > > Add the VR interface and you basically have what you describe. > > Sellam I some how like meta II, better than this new stuff. Cards in,Cards out. Needed to tweek my assembler on the home brew computer to handle local variables. !int g g rs 4 c rs 4 ! foo-bar(int a,b) ! int c; /* local */ ! begin .local a: rs 4 b: rs 4 .args c rs 4 foo-bar: lea s s - _local_ ! c = a + b - g ld r1 a add r1 b sub r1 g st r1 c ! return c ld r1 c lea s s _local_ ret lea s s _local ret ! end .global Did any assembler for the old machines handle local variables or had macros to do the same thing? Ben. --===============8342335268624924066==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 16:53:56 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 10:53:17 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8392725453680274766==" --===============8392725453680274766== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm familiar with Scratch, my daughter used it in elementary. I had forgotten about it though - it seemed focused on the task of depicting and moving objects on a 2D area, not so much in general information processing (but still, yes it could be a starting point). One hallmark of a "good development environment" that someone once told me is that that development environment can be used to create itself. Like, by Borland Delphi 2, they used Delphi to create Delphi. Same on the Visual Studio development team - they compile and develop VS using VS. So, I wonder if Scratch can create itself? It's not a hard rule, just a casual observation on the "robustness" or maturity of a given development environment. There's always been a kind of "two tiers" of software developers - those who can create reusable routines (libraries) and those who can mold existing libraries to build applications. Obviously some can do both, but generally the latter get "stuck" if there isn't some existing function/routine in an API to do what they need to do -- like open a socket, start a thread, or query system time. The former tends to need to sink into OS and HW specifics. With this "blocked" code floating in VR -- the idea is then "behind the code" to show a virtualization of the resources needed by that code, to quickly get an idea of the hardware requirements (relative to how many resources it is using) and also linkages to other software, to get a feel for the overall complexity. These are important metric to see the versatility of re-using that code in other environments/platforms. And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol on the keys might be neat. Also, does any processor support a dynamic instruction set? I've wonder if some instruction-set optimizer might find improvements by indicating your program could be executed more efficiently if such-and-such instruction was available. On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:49 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:41 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > BTW, I've wondered if some form of stenography could be used for software > > development. In my mind, it would make sense to just program directly > in > > a kind of Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) from the beginning - why bother with > > all the syntaxic sugar and peddling ascii text characters around a file > to > > form a program. So now I wonder if "building" a program using an AST > > might be possible in VR.. you "grab" a FOR loop virtually from a box on > the > > left, add it to your program tree, and build out from there decorating > the > > tree.... > > > > Are you familiar with Google Scratch? > > https://scratch.mit.edu/ > > Add the VR interface and you basically have what you describe. > > Sellam > --===============8392725453680274766==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 17:05:28 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 17:04:48 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0581433409195675394==" --===============0581433409195675394== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My personal experience of graphical programming environments (scratch, matlab, PLCs, Max/MSP - though all in quite trivial amounts) is that they're dreadful. Painfully slow to use and clumsy compared with straight C. There are too many possible variants of what you might want to do, so every simple for-loop block gains a heap of optional parameters which destroys the point. One contrary example is node-red, used to design data flows and also for teensy's audio programming environment. When the main idea is flow and each block's parameters are either obvious (like filter cut-off frequency) or inherent in the connections (the lists of parameters that describe where the data is flowing rom and to) then they can be a help. I'd recommend playing with the Teensy audio system (you don't need to pay for it) to see what you think. On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 4:53 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm familiar with Scratch, my daughter used it in elementary. I had > forgotten about it though - it seemed focused on the task of depicting and > moving objects on a 2D area, not so much in general information processing > (but still, yes it could be a starting point). One hallmark of a "good > development environment" that someone once told me is that that development > environment can be used to create itself. Like, by Borland Delphi 2, they > used Delphi to create Delphi. Same on the Visual Studio development team > - they compile and develop VS using VS. So, I wonder if Scratch can > create itself? It's not a hard rule, just a casual observation on the > "robustness" or maturity of a given development environment. > > There's always been a kind of "two tiers" of software developers - those > who can create reusable routines (libraries) and those who can mold > existing libraries to build applications. Obviously some can do both, but > generally the latter get "stuck" if there isn't some existing > function/routine in an API to do what they need to do -- like open a > socket, start a thread, or query system time. The former tends to need to > sink into OS and HW specifics. > > With this "blocked" code floating in VR -- the idea is then "behind the > code" to show a virtualization of the resources needed by that code, to > quickly get an idea of the hardware requirements (relative to how many > resources it is using) and also linkages to other software, to get a feel > for the overall complexity. These are important metric to see the > versatility of re-using that code in other environments/platforms. > > And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing > keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change > (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know > we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol > on the keys might be neat. > > Also, does any processor support a dynamic instruction set? I've wonder if > some instruction-set optimizer might find improvements by indicating your > program could be executed more efficiently if such-and-such instruction was > available. > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:49 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:41 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > BTW, I've wondered if some form of stenography could be used for > software > > > development. In my mind, it would make sense to just program directly > > in > > > a kind of Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) from the beginning - why bother > with > > > all the syntaxic sugar and peddling ascii text characters around a file > > to > > > form a program. So now I wonder if "building" a program using an AST > > > might be possible in VR.. you "grab" a FOR loop virtually from a box on > > the > > > left, add it to your program tree, and build out from there decorating > > the > > > tree.... > > > > > > > Are you familiar with Google Scratch? > > > > https://scratch.mit.edu/ > > > > Add the VR interface and you basically have what you describe. > > > > Sellam > > > --===============0581433409195675394==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 25 17:46:41 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 10:46:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3941148878232901051==" --===============3941148878232901051== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-25 9:53 a.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing > keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change > (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know > we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol > on the keys might be neat. > I think a whole new redesign of the keybord is needed, mostly for accent marks. And no, none of this icons for faces and other crap like print screen. (PS2 please for old computers) All the good ideas are here. http://quadibloc.com/comp/compint.htm > Also, does any processor support a dynamic instruction set? I've wonder if > some instruction-set optimizer might find improvements by indicating your > program could be executed more efficiently if such-and-such instruction was > available. Where is is the IMPLES logic function? EQV? Lets get updated from 1960's algol, bfore even talking about new stuff, like lower case latin letters. That includes the keyboard and display. > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:49 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: Ben. --===============3941148878232901051==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Jan 25 18:29:47 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 10:29:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7539022689735234929==" --===============7539022689735234929== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/25/23 09:46, ben via cctalk wrote: > Where is is the IMPLES logic function? EQV? > Lets get updated from 1960's algol, bfore even talking about new stuff, > like lower case latin letters. > That includes the keyboard and display. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDC_display_code It was part of the 6-bit CDC display code ca.1963. It did make FORTRAN programs "interesting" to read, however. --Chuck --===============7539022689735234929==-- From jpstewart@personalprojects.net Wed Jan 25 20:24:04 2023 From: John-Paul Stewart To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 15:22:59 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0543683301509392179==" --===============0543683301509392179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/25/23 11:53, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing > keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change > (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know > we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol > on the keys might be neat. A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the time. As a result they were not commercially successful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard --===============0543683301509392179==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 20:43:18 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 12:42:40 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5073990659657016792==" --===============5073990659657016792== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 12:23 PM John-Paul Stewart via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/25/23 11:53, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > > And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing > > keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change > > (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I > know > > we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual > symbol > > on the keys might be neat. > > A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has > been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the > time. As a result they were not commercially successful. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard I remember these. Very cool. But Steve's original query reminded me of videos I came across a few days ago of the (very rare) Con Brio Synthesizer, which has a panel with a myriad of buttons that light up/go dark depending on the context of the mode, facilitating the operator in highlighting only those buttons applicable in the current mode. Here's a video that explains its operation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-tr9FUGlr0 I had a hand in restoring that synth. Sellam --===============5073990659657016792==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Jan 25 20:53:17 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 15:52:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3885635212089099764==" --===============3885635212089099764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/25/2023 3:22 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: > On 1/25/23 11:53, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >> And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing >> keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change >> (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know >> we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol >> on the keys might be neat. > A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has > been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the > time. As a result they were not commercially successful. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard Changing keys would be rather hard on a touch typist, don't you think? bill --===============3885635212089099764==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 21:01:54 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 13:01:16 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMN2PR06MB5583127D07B6134212375E17EDCE9=40MN2PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5583=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1184037748585832786==" --===============1184037748585832786== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 12:53 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has > > been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the > > time. As a result they were not commercially successful. > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard > > Changing keys would be rather hard on a touch typist, don't you think? > If I remember correctly, one of the applications for these was for stock traders. Keys that changed according to context were apparently useful in that regard. Sellam --===============1184037748585832786==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jan 25 21:10:06 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 16:09:12 -0500 Message-ID: <34ECDDDE-EE3D-4688-939A-C947DF8A4562@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMN2PR06MB5583127D07B6134212375E17EDCE9=40MN2PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5583=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8594975556912536347==" --===============8594975556912536347== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 25, 2023, at 3:52 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 1/25/2023 3:22 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/25/23 11:53, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >>> And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing >>> keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change >>> (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know >>> we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symb= ol >>> on the keys might be neat. >> A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has >> been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the >> time. As a result they were not commercially successful. >>=20 >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard >=20 > Changing keys would be rather hard on a touch typist, don't you think? >=20 >=20 > bill A touch typist probably won't notice in the first place. But anyone who isn'= t quite that skilled might benefit. An obvious application is when you're de= aling with multiple scripts. Two can be handled with custom keycaps, but mor= e than two would be problematic. paul --===============8594975556912536347==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Wed Jan 25 22:59:45 2023 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 14:58:40 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8239760615824477544==" --===============8239760615824477544== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought this was an excellent article on work at CHM on curating, documenting, and making Apple Lisa software available - thank you Al. Would be interesting to see other software collection objects curated in this way. https://computerhistory.org/blog/apple-lisa-still-more-to-uncover/ Enjoy! -- Lee Courtney --===============8239760615824477544==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Thu Jan 26 01:25:09 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 17:03:22 -0800 Message-ID: <8AFDEFB6-5035-42CD-BA75-1BB27DA61D14@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0533900129240012851==" --===============0533900129240012851== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Though it is not a source code, there is a nice article by a retired libraria= n that used to work at Apple. Anna Mancini helped save a lot of material that= Apple discarded in the past. Anna talks about the Apple Archives at https://= annamancini.substack.com/p/how-the-apple-archive-ended-up-at Regards, Tarek Hoteit https://tarek.computer > On Jan 25, 2023, at 2:59 PM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI thought this was an excellent article on work at CHM on curating, > documenting, and making Apple Lisa software available - thank you Al. Would > be interesting to see other software collection objects curated in this way. >=20 > https://computerhistory.org/blog/apple-lisa-still-more-to-uncover/ >=20 > Enjoy! > --=20 > Lee Courtney --===============0533900129240012851==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jan 26 01:31:45 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 20:30:52 -0500 Message-ID: <961382BB-701B-4D5C-84E1-C5A68A4B7CE5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <8AFDEFB6-5035-42CD-BA75-1BB27DA61D14@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2891391761682343222==" --===============2891391761682343222== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 25, 2023, at 8:03 PM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Though it is not a source code, there is a nice article by a retired librar= ian that used to work at Apple. Anna Mancini helped save a lot of material th= at Apple discarded in the past. Anna talks about the Apple Archives at https:= //annamancini.substack.com/p/how-the-apple-archive-ended-up-at >=20 > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > https://tarek.computer Wow. I need to read the whole thing, but some things are blowing my mind alr= eady. I remember an infamous Bill Gates quote "the source code is the documentation= ". But it appears that Gates was several orders of magnitude saner than Stev= e Jobs. "They should know all that already" -- with brain damage like that, = it's amazing he was able to build a company at all. paul --===============2891391761682343222==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 26 02:33:53 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 18:33:21 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8AFDEFB6-5035-42CD-BA75-1BB27DA61D14@infocom.ai> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7939862670827881742==" --===============7939862670827881742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for that link. As usual, the Vogons get credit for something that was accomplished in=20 spite of the Vogons. At one time, Apple had a historical exhibit. It ended with the Macintosh,=20 with NO provision for any future expansion. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Wed, 25 Jan 2023, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: > Though it is not a source code, there is a nice article by a retired librar= ian that used to work at Apple. Anna Mancini helped save a lot of material th= at Apple discarded in the past. Anna talks about the Apple Archives at https:= //annamancini.substack.com/p/how-the-apple-archive-ended-up-at > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > https://tarek.computer --===============7939862670827881742==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Jan 26 12:00:26 2023 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 06:59:50 -0500 Message-ID: <6e962d94-33c5-83d9-58db-2932668fa35e@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1640890666562870317==" --===============1640890666562870317== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Companies don't care about history.  It does not affect the next quarter's sales. I had serial number 1 of a Radio Shack shortwave receiver and offered it to them. I got a reply back, 'I'm sorry, we no longer support that model.' cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2023-01-25 21:33, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Thank you for that link. > > As usual, the Vogons get credit for something that was accomplished in > spite of the Vogons. > > > At one time, Apple had a historical exhibit.  It ended with the > Macintosh, with NO provision for any future expansion. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > > On Wed, 25 Jan 2023, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >> Though it is not a source code, there is a nice article by a retired >> librarian that used to work at Apple. Anna Mancini helped save a lot >> of material that Apple discarded in the past. Anna talks about the >> Apple Archives at >> https://annamancini.substack.com/p/how-the-apple-archive-ended-up-at >> >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >> https://tarek.computer --===============1640890666562870317==-- From tarek@infocom.ai Thu Jan 26 14:59:17 2023 From: Tarek Hoteit To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 06:38:16 -0800 Message-ID: <0D9D545B-4BFB-49A4-B81F-735254FD81D9@infocom.ai> In-Reply-To: <6e962d94-33c5-83d9-58db-2932668fa35e@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3327637801549600976==" --===============3327637801549600976== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think companies treat their product as inventory items. Companies are not e= ven meant to last forever, whereas the expectations of museums is that they s= hould. Moreover, the excitement of acquiring a product with serial number 1 i= s coming from us, the consumers. You expected the Radio Shack person you cont= acted to be as excited but that person does not share the passion. Plus if he= or she do, it will likely because they share the passion. I think you should= donate the machine to CHM or some museum that would make a serious effort to= store and showcase the item. If the item is more valuable to you then to the= m then, if I were you, I would showcase it on a bookshelf, take some photos, = and share it to the world. The piece will eventually vanishes just like many = serial number 1 products have sadly phased off, except for $$$$ Apple 1 Regards, Tarek Hoteit https://tarek.computer > On Jan 26, 2023, at 4:00 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFCompanies don't care about history. It does not affect the next q= uarter's sales. I had serial number 1 of a Radio Shack shortwave receiver and= offered it to them. >=20 > I got a reply back, 'I'm sorry, we no longer support that model.' >=20 > cheers, >=20 > Nigel >=20 >=20 >=20 > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 >=20 >=20 >> On 2023-01-25 21:33, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Thank you for that link. >>=20 >> As usual, the Vogons get credit for something that was accomplished in spi= te of the Vogons. >>=20 >>=20 >> At one time, Apple had a historical exhibit. It ended with the Macintosh,= with NO provision for any future expansion. >>=20 >> --=20 >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >>> Though it is not a source code, there is a nice article by a retired libr= arian that used to work at Apple. Anna Mancini helped save a lot of material = that Apple discarded in the past. Anna talks about the Apple Archives at http= s://annamancini.substack.com/p/how-the-apple-archive-ended-up-at >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Tarek Hoteit >>> https://tarek.computer --===============3327637801549600976==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 26 15:31:22 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 15:30:50 +0000 Message-ID: <2101410793.233954.1674747050942@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2101410793.233954.1674747050942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8623837522014805359==" --===============8623837522014805359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Q29tcGFuaWVzwqBkb24ndMKgY2FyZcKgYWJvdXTCoGhpc3RvcnkuwqDCoEl0wqBkb2VzwqBub3TC oGFmZmVjdMKgdGhlwqBuZXh0CnF1YXJ0ZXInc8Kgc2FsZXMuwqBJwqBoYWTCoHNlcmlhbMKgbnVt YmVywqAxwqBvZsKgYcKgUmFkaW/CoFNoYWNrwqBzaG9ydHdhdmUKcmVjZWl2ZXLCoGFuZMKgb2Zm ZXJlZMKgaXTCoHRvwqB0aGVtLgoKScKgZ290wqBhwqByZXBsecKgYmFjayzCoCdJJ23CoHNvcnJ5 LMKgd2XCoG5vwqBsb25nZXLCoHN1cHBvcnTCoHRoYXTCoG1vZGVsLicKCmNoZWVycywKCk5pZ2Vs CgpDOsKgd293wqBJwqBkaWRuJ3TCoGV2ZW7CoGtub3fCoHRoZcKgU2hpcnTCoFNoYWNrwqBtb25p dG9yZWTCoG11Y2jCoGxlc3PCoHJlcGxpZWTCoHRvwqBjdXN0b21lcsKgaW5xdWlyaWVzwqB2aWHC oHNob3J0d2F2ZS7CoEnCoHN1cHBvc2XCoHRoYXQnc8KgMcKgd2F5wqB0b8KgZ2V0wqBwYXRyb25z wqB0b8KgYnV5wqB5b3VywqByaWdzLgo= --===============8623837522014805359==-- From ethan@757.org Thu Jan 26 15:55:24 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:54:58 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2101410793.233954.1674747050942@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9203449147189384523==" --===============9203449147189384523== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Companies don't care about history.  It does not affect the next > quarter's sales. I had serial number 1 of a Radio Shack shortwave > receiver and offered it to them. A CEO I know of a company who's products I use has commented that he is always thinking forward, doesn't dwell in the past. Otherwise there would be layoffs. - Ethan --===============9203449147189384523==-- From technoid6502@gmail.com Thu Jan 26 17:37:27 2023 From: Technoid Mutant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] HP3000 recently deinstalled available in Colorado for nothing. Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:36:51 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3987624421658424794==" --===============3987624421658424794== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I snipped this from an instant post on facebook, 26Jan2022 at 12:35pm Eastern Standard Time.:: We just de-commissioned our HP3000 minicomputer in December 2022 and are willing to give it away free to anyone willing to pick it up. Photos to follow, but it is the whole system, with 2 green bar printers, manuals et al. Be sure you understand what this is. It is a 1970s era minicomputer that is large and heavy. Sitting on our loading dock inside our building it takes up maybe 10 feet of wall space. This is not a modern "mini computer" like an Intel NUC or Mac Mini... this thing is a BEAST. Priority given to whomever can pick it up first during business hours (8:00am to 5:00pm). Located in Denver, Colorado near I-25 and Colorado Blvd. --===============3987624421658424794==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 26 17:40:41 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP3000 recently deinstalled available in Colorado for nothing. Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 17:40:11 +0000 Message-ID: <1375833886.301877.1674754811631@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7394531219198362132==" --===============7394531219198362132== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dang it purdy. Alas I'm 3000 miles away. --===============7394531219198362132==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Thu Jan 26 17:41:54 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP3000 recently deinstalled available in Colorado for nothing. Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 17:41:14 +0000 Message-ID: <1174277776.1444143.1674754874959@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5998215847752605978==" --===============5998215847752605978== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Photos. Contact info??? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:37 AM, Technoid Mutant via cctalk wrote:I snipped this from an instant post on facebook, 26Jan2022 at = 12:35pmEastern Standard Time.::We just de-commissioned our HP3000 minicompute= r in December 2022 and arewilling to give it away free to anyone willing to p= ick it up. Photos tofollow, but it is the whole system, with 2 green bar prin= ters, manualset al.Be sure you understand what this is. It is a 1970s era min= icomputer thatis large and heavy. Sitting on our loading dock inside our buil= ding ittakes up maybe 10 feet of wall space. This is not a modern "minicomput= er" like an Intel NUC or Mac Mini... this thing is a BEAST.Priority given to = whomever can pick it up first during business hours(8:00am to 5:00pm). Locate= d in Denver, Colorado near I-25 and Colorado Blvd. =20 --===============5998215847752605978==-- From technoid6502@gmail.com Thu Jan 26 17:42:16 2023 From: Technoid Mutant To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Contact for HP3000 minicomputer: Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:41:22 -0500 Message-ID: <12e2bc19-9292-47fa-df02-9a56a46755be@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0859767422525917886==" --===============0859767422525917886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I neglected to put any contact in the message prior: The fellow is Michael Lafond, an employee of the Archdiocese of Denver?  Here's a link to his Facebook page for messaging: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/user/1383697326 --===============0859767422525917886==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 26 18:01:49 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP3000 recently deinstalled available in Colorado for nothing. Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:01:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1375833886.301877.1674754811631@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8646811169926826532==" --===============8646811169926826532== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-26 10:40 a.m., Chris via cctalk wrote: > Dang it purdy. > > Alas I'm 3000 miles away. AND UP 3 MOUNTAINS.:) If one really wanted it they would find a way. Ben. --===============8646811169926826532==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Jan 26 18:35:07 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:34:27 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMN2PR06MB5583127D07B6134212375E17EDCE9=40MN2PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5583=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0844675835385731097==" --===============0844675835385731097== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Changing keys would be rather hard on a touch typist, don't you think? As for what I said of morphing shape of keycaps: I think I recall a MacBook circa 2018 having something like this - at least one special row near the top? It had programmatically controlled colorized symbols, and was a small touch screen. There's also been anime depiction of "projected keyboards" -- the keys are projected onto a surface, and some AI-assisted camera monitors your finger motions and is able to compute/interpret what projected keys are being pressed (and those projections of course can be of any symbol shape). I recently came across the old H.S. yearbook of my grandmother from 1940s, and it had a report/atrticle of a typing-class (all female; it mentioned there were two males but they dropped out of the class), and the young ladies had won a regional contest at a blazing speed of ~20 wpm. I recall actually using a typewriter long ago, and I recall there being an implicit speed limit because if you went too fast, the metal hammers would bind up -- so I imagine in the 1940s the mechanical design of consumer/H.S. grade typewriters maybe wasn't the best (so 20wpm then maybe was reasonable). I remember even by the late 1980s, "most" people still didn't know how to type very efficiently (as "most" people still didn't even have a computer at home). If I had to guess, I'd say in the 1980s the average WPM was still ~20, while today I suspect it's over 100 wpm (be it either thumbing text messages or actual typing) -- that's just a guess, no research. But now-a-days, I don't ever see any "Typing Class" specific classes at H.S. or college. Collectively or in aggregate, we've "all" learned that skill at a sufficient speed and accuracy. It's like the width of roads -- or the width of lanes within a road -- we're forever stuck making those about the width of two horses pulling a carriage. But if your keyboard was some kind rubix-cube type device (which I think I had once seen such a thing, as a keyboard) -- maybe some specialized training would be needed again. But I guess to be worth it, it would have to show trained operators can get some kind of orders-of-magnitude improvement (300+ wpm), and maybe with the "speed of human thought" that's still not necessary, because we're still going to pause and think in between typing. Good point in stock brokers using some special keyboard -- I wonder if perhaps not just for speed, but perhaps also security? I wonder if a kind of "morphing organic" keycap keyboard might help in password/identity verification? (sort of like private keys -- instead of typing a password, what if a few keys are configured to show your chosen codewords mingled in with a few random words, and you just press the key with your codewords in the right sequence -- afterwhich the keys revert to their normal purpose? not sure if that really helps, since the keyboard is then showing portions of your password -- maybe the keycaps could be angled or polarized to be less visible from side angles {like screen privacy things}). I recall looking up the origin of the QWERTY keyboard - a rough beginning in 1874 but rather refined by 1878, and having essentially the same layout we have today. So it's neat to me that for all the advances in computing processors and memory -- but we're still basically using a typewriter as our primary input :D I'm not sure if any alternative can really give any orders-of-magnitude improvement to the average user (in speed or accuracy). BUT, it's really hard to think outside the box on a 150+ year old design that's so well accepted by the general public -- like the pen/pencil, it's still a good intuitive design. -SL On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 2:53 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 1/25/2023 3:22 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/25/23 11:53, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > >> And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing > >> keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change > >> (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I > know > >> we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual > symbol > >> on the keys might be neat. > > A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has > > been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the > > time. As a result they were not commercially successful. > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard > > Changing keys would be rather hard on a touch typist, don't you think? > > > bill > > > --===============0844675835385731097==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jan 26 19:15:54 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 14:15:02 -0500 Message-ID: <5ABE3CA5-7794-4FE7-B297-FF4F533C4AD0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4588473025867254099==" --===============4588473025867254099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 26, 2023, at 1:34 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Changing keys would be rather hard on a touch typist, don't you think? >=20 > As for what I said of morphing shape of keycaps: I think I recall a > MacBook circa 2018 having something like this - at least one special row > near the top? It had programmatically controlled colorized symbols, and was > a small touch screen. =20 Sounds like what Apple came up with for its laptops a while ago, though in t= he most recent generation they dumped the idea. A somewhat similar but more primitive thing is found in the DEC VT71/t typese= tting terminal, which has a row of 16 "User Defined Keys" at the top. These = have double keycaps, an outer transparent plastic shell that snaps over a sma= ller ordinary keycap with no label. The idea is that you could make your own= labels and insert them under the clear shell. Then again, a lot of users si= mply laid a cardboard strip with legends just above the top row: http://bitsa= vers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt71t/vt71t.jpg paul --===============4588473025867254099==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Thu Jan 26 19:22:34 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP3000 recently deinstalled available in Colorado for nothing. Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 19:21:59 +0000 Message-ID: <1700682711.17726.1674760919806@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1375833886.301877.1674754811631@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1974726020130503490==" --===============1974726020130503490== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please send info directly to me  can not accessing fb.  Tbanks Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:40 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: Dang it purdy. Alas I'm 3000 miles away.  --===============1974726020130503490==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 26 19:24:19 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:23:51 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5ABE3CA5-7794-4FE7-B297-FF4F533C4AD0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6043560032346474134==" --===============6043560032346474134== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Sounds like what Apple came up with for its laptops a while ago, though > in the most recent generation they dumped the idea. > > A somewhat similar but more primitive thing is found in the DEC VT71/t > typesetting terminal, which has a row of 16 "User Defined Keys" at the > top. These have double keycaps, an outer transparent plastic shell that > snaps over a smaller ordinary keycap with no label. The idea is that > you could make your own labels and insert them under the clear shell. > Then again, a lot of users simply laid a cardboard strip with legends > just above the top row: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt71t/vt71t.jpg Some PC software, such as WordPervert, made heavy use of the "function keys". There were cardboard templates to put around the function keys to label their use. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6043560032346474134==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 26 19:25:29 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 68k textbooks Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 19:25:03 +0000 Message-ID: <1261179071.22620.1674761103884@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1261179071.22620.1674761103884.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9055269312977652445==" --===============9055269312977652445== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a few scanned somewhere. I always kimd of liked Douglas Halls Micropro= cessors and Interfacing: Programming and Hardware for 80x86. It's a large for= mat textbook. There is a 68000 version which I don't have. Curious what textb= ooks other can recommend. As I said I scanned at least 2, maybe 3 some time ago. The Antonakos book see= med to stand out.=20 https://www.amazon.com/68000-Microprocessor-Hardware-Principles-Applications/= dp/0136681204 --===============9055269312977652445==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 26 19:40:00 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:39:25 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1263891634754052995==" --===============1263891634754052995== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > I recently came across the old H.S. yearbook of my grandmother from 1940s, > and it had a report/atrticle of a typing-class (all female; it mentioned > there were two males but they dropped out of the class), and the young > ladies had won a regional contest at a blazing speed of ~20 wpm. I > recall actually using a typewriter long ago, and I recall there being an > implicit speed limit because if you went too fast, the metal hammers would > bind up -- so I imagine in the 1940s the mechanical design of consumer/H.S. > grade typewriters maybe wasn't the best (so 20wpm then maybe was > reasonable). Half a century ago, professional typists would strive for, and maybe succeed at 100 WPM. The IBM selectric mechanism could handle 14.8 characters per second, about 150 WPM. At GSFC, one guy managed to get a selectric terminal up to about twice that (300 baud?), but soon, the [APL] typeball flew off across the room. There was some discussion of competing for distance. I knew a professional typist, working for my book publisher, who, on the right machines (Linoterm) could average 150 WPM for an 8 hour day. At the end of the day, she had little or no remembrance of what she had typed. On conventional consumer Selectrics, she would wear one out in weeks. > I recall looking up the origin of the QWERTY keyboard - a rough beginning > in 1874 but rather refined by 1878, and having essentially the same layout > we have today. The QWERTY keyboard deliberately limits speed, to avoid lever jams. > I'm not sure if any alternative can really give any > orders-of-magnitude improvement to the average user (in speed or > accuracy). BUT, it's really hard to think outside the box on a 150+ year > old design that's so well accepted by the general public -- like the > pen/pencil, it's still a good intuitive design. Various arrangements, such as Dvorak, have claimed speed improvements. But, to use it one needs to first unlearn existing touch-typing skill. Some chording keyboards show promise. The "Right Hander" from 40 years ago, was slow. So were the eight buttons on the handlebars of Steve Robert's bicycle. Five buttons and tilt switches in a handgrip was even slower. Raw ASCII is not an efficient input mode. Currently, the fastest is stenographer keyboards, but that requires post input processing, usually with the original stenographer, to convert from "shorthand" to words. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1263891634754052995==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jan 26 20:35:27 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 15:34:54 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7757406502740425724==" --===============7757406502740425724== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 26, 2023, at 2:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >> I recently came across the old H.S. yearbook of my grandmother from 1940s, >> and it had a report/atrticle of a typing-class (all female; it mentioned >> there were two males but they dropped out of the class), and the young >> ladies had won a regional contest at a blazing speed of ~20 wpm. I >> recall actually using a typewriter long ago, and I recall there being an >> implicit speed limit because if you went too fast, the metal hammers would >> bind up -- so I imagine in the 1940s the mechanical design of consumer/H.S. >> grade typewriters maybe wasn't the best (so 20wpm then maybe was >> reasonable). >=20 > Half a century ago, professional typists would strive for, and maybe succee= d at 100 WPM. I believe professionals routinely achieved that speed, certainly on electric = typewriters; non-electric ones would be a bit harder. > The IBM selectric mechanism could handle 14.8 characters per second, about = 150 WPM. At GSFC, one guy managed to get a selectric terminal up to about tw= ice that (300 baud?), but soon, the [APL] typeball flew off across the room. = There was some discussion of competing for distance. >=20 > I knew a professional typist, working for my book publisher, who, on the ri= ght machines (Linoterm) could average 150 WPM for an 8 hour day. At the end = of the day, she had little or no remembrance of what she had typed. > On conventional consumer Selectrics, she would wear one out in weeks. Wow. Data point: the PLATO system (University of Illinois) had a typing speed test= program with a challenging wrinkle: if you mistyped any letter it would eras= e the current word entirely so you'd have to start over. And since it was a = competitive game, it kept records. Those still exist; there are a couple of = entries that seem to be robots, but the highest that seems real is 122 wpm an= d a dozen or so are over 100. (Mine is 75.8). paul --===============7757406502740425724==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Thu Jan 26 20:47:44 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 15:26:32 -0500 Message-ID: <75ffeb98-72f9-64d3-ce03-60550606ba00@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: <5ABE3CA5-7794-4FE7-B297-FF4F533C4AD0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4188540717648427819==" --===============4188540717648427819== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-26 14:15, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > A somewhat similar but more primitive thing is found in the DEC VT71/t type= setting terminal, which has a row of 16 "User Defined Keys" at the top. Thes= e have double keycaps, an outer transparent plastic shell that snaps over a s= maller ordinary keycap with no label. The idea is that you could make your o= wn labels and insert them under the clear shell. Then again, a lot of users = simply laid a cardboard strip with legends just above the top row: http://bit= savers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt71t/vt71t.jpg And on the lk201 they finally made a strip for that :) --===============4188540717648427819==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jan 26 21:12:52 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 13:12:22 -0800 Message-ID: <4510148e-3631-60dc-b67c-01645f98006e@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6497075599856964959==" --===============6497075599856964959== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/26/23 12:34, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > I believe professionals routinely achieved that speed, certainly on electri= c typewriters; non-electric ones would be a bit harder. This may surprise some: https://www.academyoflearning.com/blog/the-fastest-typists-in-the-world-past-= and-present/ >> The IBM selectric mechanism could handle 14.8 characters per second, about= 150 WPM. At GSFC, one guy managed to get a selectric terminal up to about t= wice that (300 baud?), but soon, the [APL] typeball flew off across the room.= There was some discussion of competing for distance. I submit that the Selectric was not the optimum platform with which to set speed records. As an aside, one nice thing about old FORTRAN 66 and predecessors, is the use of what amounts to a 46 character set, which amounts to letters, numbers and -+=3D()/.,* and space. It makes for very fast program entry. --Chuck --===============6497075599856964959==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jan 26 21:24:08 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 13:23:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4510148e-3631-60dc-b67c-01645f98006e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6043330147574957575==" --===============6043330147574957575== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I submit that the Selectric was not the optimum platform with which to > set speed records. Of course not! Even a daisy wheel is easily capable of twice that. But, we didn't have convenient access to anything better half a century ago. I don't know what would be the fastest mechanism. Maybe a good keyboard input to a computer with a laser printer output? --===============6043330147574957575==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jan 26 21:35:15 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:34:32 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5811456547777903122==" --===============5811456547777903122== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 26, 2023, at 4:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I submit that the Selectric was not the optimum platform with which to >> set speed records. >=20 > Of course not! > Even a daisy wheel is easily capable of twice that. > But, we didn't have convenient access to anything better half a century ago. The Selectric was a really nice mechanism for swappable typeface work. And v= ersions of it could do proportional spacing, well enough for some commercial = typesetting work (like magazines). Of course, they weren't the first design = for swappable typefaces; that would be the Hammond typewriters from around 19= 00. Which, by the way, came with two choices of keyboard: a QWERTY keyboard,= and their "ideal" keyboard which is semicircular and has two levels of shift= (one for capital letters and the other for punctuation, corresponding to the= three rows of characters on the rotating type shuttle that carries the chara= cters to be imprinted). Come to think of it, a version of the Hammond ("Vari= typer") could do proportional spacing too, many decades before the IBM "Compo= ser". > I don't know what would be the fastest mechanism. > Maybe a good keyboard input to a computer with a laser printer output? Fastest, perhaps, but that doesn't permit immediate feedback -- you can't see= what you typed. Not unless you have a display in between. For fingers to p= age in real time, the best answer is probably the dot matrix printer -- LA120= could do 120 characters/second as the name indicates, and chances are that c= ould be beaten with some effort if it mattered. That "fastest typist" article says the pre-computer record was done with an I= BM Electric typewriter -- that would be a machine with conventional type arms= , propelled by a mechanism involving a rotating rubber roller. Interesting t= hat those were faster than the Selectric. And they could be hooked to comput= ers; the IBM 1620 model 1 had such a setup (in the Model 2 it became a Select= ric), and other computers of that era used things like the similar and very s= turdy Friden Flexowriter. paul --===============5811456547777903122==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jan 26 21:57:16 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 13:56:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1433565448003429667==" --===============1433565448003429667== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/26/23 13:23, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Even a daisy wheel is easily capable of twice that. > But, we didn't have convenient access to anything better half a century > ago. A couple of years ago, that would have been true. But the Diablo Daisy-wheels date from at least 1972. You're also forgetting the thermal printers, like the TI Silent 70, which could sail along at 30 cps (1971). There were other variations. I recall a Singer terminal that used a spinning typewheel (One always ended with a page eject because the damned thing would leave a vertical smear of black ink if left unattended). Carriage was unidirectional via wormscrew rod; return was via a spring that was stretched as the carriage advanced. I couldn't find anything on bitsavers about this creature, but I used one in the early 70s. --Chuck --===============1433565448003429667==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Thu Jan 26 22:08:11 2023 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 14:07:29 -0800 Message-ID: <6540BA8F-8578-4345-9C4A-E044ED48E268@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5163809331745672599==" --===============5163809331745672599== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What about the SCM Kleinschmidt spin printer. Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Jan 26, 2023, at 1:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/26/23 13:23, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> Even a daisy wheel is easily capable of twice that. >> But, we didn't have convenient access to anything better half a century >> ago. >=20 > A couple of years ago, that would have been true. But the > Diablo Daisy-wheels date from at least 1972. You're also forgetting the > thermal printers, like the TI Silent 70, which could sail along at 30 > cps (1971). There were other variations. I recall a Singer terminal > that used a spinning typewheel (One always ended with a page eject > because the damned thing would leave a vertical smear of black ink if > left unattended). Carriage was unidirectional via wormscrew rod; return > was via a spring that was stretched as the carriage advanced. I > couldn't find anything on bitsavers about this creature, but I used one > in the early 70s. >=20 > --Chuck >=20 --===============5163809331745672599==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Thu Jan 26 22:09:07 2023 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 22:08:26 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0238726144589344076==" --===============0238726144589344076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wikipedia claims line printers had achieved 600 lpm by the '50s and have reached 2500 lpm On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:56 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/26/23 13:23, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > > Even a daisy wheel is easily capable of twice that. > > But, we didn't have convenient access to anything better half a century > > ago. > > A couple of years ago, that would have been true. But the > Diablo Daisy-wheels date from at least 1972. You're also forgetting the > thermal printers, like the TI Silent 70, which could sail along at 30 > cps (1971). There were other variations. I recall a Singer terminal > that used a spinning typewheel (One always ended with a page eject > because the damned thing would leave a vertical smear of black ink if > left unattended). Carriage was unidirectional via wormscrew rod; return > was via a spring that was stretched as the carriage advanced. I > couldn't find anything on bitsavers about this creature, but I used one > in the early 70s. > > --Chuck > --===============0238726144589344076==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Jan 26 22:19:38 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 22:19:07 +0000 Message-ID: <237451943.88324.1674771547286@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2146158551392325878==" --===============2146158551392325878== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There were printers in the 80s, used by the IRS and such, that spit out pape= r so fast it wasn't safe to be near. This is what I've heard. =20 --===============2146158551392325878==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Jan 26 22:52:51 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:52:20 -0600 Message-ID: <0261f4a2-f888-3cd3-fdf0-a223dbe39a2d@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <237451943.88324.1674771547286@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0434890331054529612==" --===============0434890331054529612== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NEC also made "Thimble" printers.=C2=A0 These uses something similar to a=20 daisy wheel but were more shaped like a thimble with the letters coming=20 out up out of the center and the thimble rotated horizontally instead of=20 vertically like the daisy wheel. On 1/26/2023 4:19 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > There were printers in the 80s, used by the IRS and such, that spit out p= aper so fast it wasn't safe to be near. This is what I've heard. --===============0434890331054529612==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 26 23:04:46 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:04:16 -0700 Message-ID: <45ea86b4-823a-3491-9e68-06731e0eadc9@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <237451943.88324.1674771547286@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4166504115642117266==" --===============4166504115642117266== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-26 3:19 p.m., Chris via cctalk wrote: > There were printers in the 80s, used by the IRS and such, that spit out p= aper so fast it wasn't safe to be near. This is what I've heard. Are you sure that was not that green stuff. :) Ben. --===============4166504115642117266==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jan 26 23:10:25 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 15:09:50 -0800 Message-ID: <9fe99896-fdc3-a6cf-ad17-c2e4f1f24e85@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <6540BA8F-8578-4345-9C4A-E044ED48E268@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1686212183359897116==" --===============1686212183359897116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/26/23 14:07, Don R wrote: > What about the SCM Kleinschmidt spin printer. The 311? Yes, at 40 cps that would certainly qualify--came in a KSR model as well. --Chuck --===============1686212183359897116==-- From ama@ugr.es Thu Jan 26 23:15:41 2023 From: Angel M Alganza To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP3000 recently deinstalled available in Colorado for nothing. Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 00:15:11 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7704125547439695337==" --===============7704125547439695337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-26 19:01, ben via cctalk wrote: > If one really wanted it they would find a way. When you are 3000 Km away, maybe, but when you are at the wrong side of the pond it isn't that easy... :-D Ángel --===============7704125547439695337==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Thu Jan 26 23:18:11 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP3000 recently deinstalled available in Colorado for nothing. Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:17:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7657866499165412373==" --===============7657866499165412373== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 4:15 PM Angel M Alganza via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2023-01-26 19:01, ben via cctalk wrote: > > > If one really wanted it they would find a way. > > When you are 3000 Km away, maybe, but when you are at the wrong side of > the pond it isn't that easy... :-D > I'm less than 15km away.. But I really have the room to store it... Warner > --===============7657866499165412373==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jan 26 23:27:19 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 15:26:44 -0800 Message-ID: <8c059d41-e22a-ec54-0aa8-c070dd0899a6@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <237451943.88324.1674771547286@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2167307669356100788==" --===============2167307669356100788== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/26/23 14:19, Chris via cctalk wrote: > There were printers in the 80s, used by the IRS and such, that spit out pa= per so fast it wasn't safe to be near. This is what I've heard. =20 Trying to restrict the discussion to KSR type units; i.e. ones that came with a keyboard and might be used as a typewriter if operated in local mode. Non-impact printers, were of course, by far the fastest (e.g. Versatec), but were a bit later than 1973. --Chuck --===============2167307669356100788==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jan 26 23:29:38 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 15:29:07 -0800 Message-ID: <7682b80d-d588-7fb8-f1ff-ee98352d8d3e@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <237451943.88324.1674771547286@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5122498506296958435==" --===============5122498506296958435== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I take that back about Versatec, CHM has a document from 1970 on their electrostatic printer: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X163.83A I know that Lawrence Livermore had one and used it quite a bit back in the day. --Chuck --===============5122498506296958435==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Jan 26 23:30:36 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 15:30:06 -0800 Message-ID: <69f915a1-8ba5-37ee-c8c5-3bfc8b43a101@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <0261f4a2-f888-3cd3-fdf0-a223dbe39a2d@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7156757065861832487==" --===============7156757065861832487== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/26/23 14:52, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > NEC also made "Thimble" printers.  These uses something similar to a > daisy wheel but were more shaped like a thimble with the letters coming > out up out of the center and the thimble rotated horizontally instead of > vertically like the daisy wheel. I own a NEC Spinwriter, but I believe it came after the Hitype. --Chuck --===============7156757065861832487==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 26 23:53:22 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP3000 recently deinstalled available in Colorado for nothing. Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:52:50 -0700 Message-ID: <7e4c5c3b-0e33-b7fd-8716-9f409e30cbdf@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6863807484575797584==" --===============6863807484575797584== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-26 4:15 p.m., Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-01-26 19:01, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> If one really wanted it they would find a way. > > When you are 3000 Km away, maybe, but when you are at the wrong side of > the pond it isn't that easy...  :-D > Ángel Well at at one time they had this thing called Shipping... Now it is all AIR. Ben. --===============6863807484575797584==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Jan 27 00:08:18 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 18:07:50 -0600 Message-ID: <48ca6d60-a231-1b37-e3c1-45db1e1e0bd3@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <6540BA8F-8578-4345-9C4A-E044ED48E268@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1689272860952802170==" --===============1689272860952802170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/26/23 16:07, Don R via cctalk wrote: > What about the SCM Kleinschmidt spin printer. > Yup, I think those did 30 CPS. Jon --===============1689272860952802170==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Jan 27 00:09:08 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:49:56 -0600 Message-ID: <27965da5-b223-e2c6-1cf7-0fad29342cce@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0441735373244437108==" --===============0441735373244437108== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The GE Terminet line of printers used a band of letters and multiple hammers to hit the band at just the right time.  I believe they ran at a maximum speed of 1200 Baud or 120 characters per second. Also, many line printers used this method.  Sometimes the band would have multiple copies of each letter on them to make things go faster. On 1/26/2023 3:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/26/23 13:23, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> Even a daisy wheel is easily capable of twice that. >> But, we didn't have convenient access to anything better half a century >> ago. > A couple of years ago, that would have been true. But the > Diablo Daisy-wheels date from at least 1972. You're also forgetting the > thermal printers, like the TI Silent 70, which could sail along at 30 > cps (1971). There were other variations. I recall a Singer terminal > that used a spinning typewheel (One always ended with a page eject > because the damned thing would leave a vertical smear of black ink if > left unattended). Carriage was unidirectional via wormscrew rod; return > was via a spring that was stretched as the carriage advanced. I > couldn't find anything on bitsavers about this creature, but I used one > in the early 70s. > > --Chuck --===============0441735373244437108==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 27 00:11:15 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:10:46 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8c059d41-e22a-ec54-0aa8-c070dd0899a6@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1494179416630330473==" --===============1494179416630330473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Trying to restrict the discussion to KSR type units; i.e. ones that came > with a keyboard and might be used as a typewriter if operated in local mode. Well. that certainly helps define fastest typewriter. But, is that we would be most interested in? What's the fastest of data input? Many factors come into play. And it doesn't have to be much faster than a Selectric before printer speed ceases to be a limiting factor. When typewriting, I am constantly looking at the keys ("where is that character?"), looking at the paper, etc. All of which should be eliminated for fast typewriting. I was barely even a "touch typist". In college, for a while, I did some temp work keypunching. I was not a fast typist, but I managed to outperform many of the other keypunchers simply becaause the first thing that I did was to look at the card format, and punch a drum card. For some reason many keypunchers think that drum cards are too technical for them to do! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1494179416630330473==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jan 27 00:47:08 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:46:34 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6369893061167714221==" --===============6369893061167714221== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/26/23 16:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > In college, for a while, I did some temp work keypunching.  I was not a > fast typist, but I managed to outperform many of the other keypunchers > simply becaause the first thing that I did was to look at the card > format, and punch a drum card.  For some reason many keypunchers think > that drum cards are too technical for them to do! One of the things from high school that has proved to be of immense value was the summer I took a typing class. Legendless keys Underwood standard office typewriter. --Chuck --===============6369893061167714221==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 27 01:14:51 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 20:13:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7682b80d-d588-7fb8-f1ff-ee98352d8d3e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8350747543079797179==" --===============8350747543079797179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 26, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I take that back about Versatec, CHM has a document from 1970 on their > electrostatic printer: >=20 > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X163.83A >=20 > I know that Lawrence Livermore had one and used it quite a bit back in > the day. >=20 > --Chuck I worked with one of those on the PLATO system in 1976, where it was used in = bitmap graphics mode to print music scores. That at first worked very badly = because the paper transport was chain driven, with enough slack in the drive= that if you'd stop and start it, you'd get irregular paper feeding with as a= result gaps in the graphics. I fixed this by writing a new driver that was = designed to stream, so it would never stop in mid-job. The discussion about fast typing reminded me of a related and in some ways mo= re amazing record: the one set by Ted McElroy around 1938 for fastest Morse c= ode copying. That record is 75 wpm, so obviously he had to type that fast. = In 1938, would that have been on a manual typewriter? I suspect so. Either = way, it's impressive to recognize the audio patterns of Morse code sent at bl= inding speed, and type what's received -- with some lag most likely because M= orse code is variable length so the letters don't arrive in a steady cadence. paul --===============8350747543079797179==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Jan 27 01:15:33 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 20:15:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5057265154439487811==" --===============5057265154439487811== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/26/2023 4:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I submit that the Selectric was not the optimum platform with which to >> set speed records. > > Of course not! > Even a daisy wheel is easily capable of twice that. > But, we didn't have convenient access to anything better half a > century ago. A half century a go I regularly typed 60WPM on my Kleinschmidt at work and my Lorenz LO50 at home.  That was as fast as they went and rhythm rather than speed was the desired objective. And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school. bill --===============5057265154439487811==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Jan 27 01:20:06 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 20:19:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <237451943.88324.1674771547286@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8340408941690877331==" --===============8340408941690877331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/26/2023 5:19 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > There were printers in the 80s, used by the IRS and such, that spit out p= aper so fast it wasn't safe to be near. This is what I've heard. We had a XEROX at West Point in the 80's that you had to stay out of the=20 room when it was printing and binding reports.=C2=A0 It would staple them and then throw them across the room into = a small pile.=C2=A0 Usually with enough force to do bodily harm. bill --===============8340408941690877331==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 27 01:20:43 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 20:20:11 -0500 Message-ID: <9016816B-684C-49DB-B66B-18B1AF7F42A3@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580FB686E289165C8579DC4EDCC9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6630917423325868216==" --===============6630917423325868216== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 26, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 1/26/2023 4:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> I submit that the Selectric was not the optimum platform with which to >>> set speed records. >>=20 >> Of course not! >> Even a daisy wheel is easily capable of twice that. >> But, we didn't have convenient access to anything better half a century ag= o. >=20 >=20 > A half century a go I regularly typed 60WPM on my Kleinschmidt at work and = my Lorenz LO50 >=20 > at home. That was as fast as they went and rhythm rather than speed was th= e desired objective. I remember the same from banging on an ASR 33. And if you watch videos of Li= notype machine operators, the same thing is very clear: they show a nice smoo= th cadence, not incredibly fast but very steady. The mechanical structure of= those machines is very complex, with many more moving parts traveling far gr= eater distances than typewriters have, so it's easy to imagine things jamming= up if you try to go too fast. And in some cases, jams would be seriously un= pleasant, with molten lead spraying out onto the floor and perhaps the haples= s operator. paul --===============6630917423325868216==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jan 27 04:11:03 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 20:10:23 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580FB686E289165C8579DC4EDCC9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5948295161211047186==" --===============5948295161211047186== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:15 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school. > I had typing as an elective class in 7th grade in 1984. It gave me the ability to type in programs faster. Sellam --===============5948295161211047186==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 27 04:16:22 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 20:15:52 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3904337677059286756==" --===============3904337677059286756== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems as though MOST of us chose the typing class elective. Disproportionately more than the general population. We also probably don't have very many athletes here. Although lugging this shit around does build up some strength. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:15 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school. >> > > I had typing as an elective class in 7th grade in 1984. It gave me the > ability to type in programs faster. > > Sellam > --===============3904337677059286756==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Jan 27 04:44:14 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 04:43:32 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5244939913526269584==" --===============5244939913526269584== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 4:15 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > We also probably don't have very many athletes here. Not unless you class 'electronics' as a sport. I managed to do so at school many years ago, meaning that while other boys were chassis spheres and prolate spheroids about I was soldering up a Z80-based computer, experimenting with vacuum systems, teaching myself how to use machine tools and other useful stuff. -tony --===============5244939913526269584==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jan 27 05:43:09 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 21:42:29 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5997512782512645494==" --===============5997512782512645494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:15 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > We also probably don't have very many athletes here. Although lugging > this shit around does build up some strength. > Ahem. I was league champion in shotput in 10th grade (43+ feet with an 8lb shot). But yes, mongering vintage computers builds core strength. Sellam --===============5997512782512645494==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jan 27 06:10:22 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 22:09:43 -0800 Message-ID: <7fdb67b1-ec7a-e88e-7caa-3c63965e22d6@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <9016816B-684C-49DB-B66B-18B1AF7F42A3@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0578007561051237978==" --===============0578007561051237978== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/26/23 17:20, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I remember the same from banging on an ASR 33. And if you watch videos of = Linotype machine operators, the same thing is very clear: they show a nice sm= ooth cadence, not incredibly fast but very steady. The mechanical structure = of those machines is very complex, with many more moving parts traveling far = greater distances than typewriters have, so it's easy to imagine things jammi= ng up if you try to go too fast. And in some cases, jams would be seriously = unpleasant, with molten lead spraying out onto the floor and perhaps the hapl= ess operator. To this day, I have a memory of spending an entire class session working on rhythm on the home keys. "Class, let's begin. A S D F J K L sem, A S D F J K L sem..." The old office manual typewriters could easily jam if your rhythm was off. I didn't have the legs for shorthand. --Chuck --===============0578007561051237978==-- From maxwell@buffalo.edu Fri Jan 27 06:26:15 2023 From: John Maxwell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 68k textbooks Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 21:14:02 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1261179071.22620.1674761103884@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2730666543942238435==" --===============2730666543942238435== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable During my college years, I took a very interesting 68000 course/lab where the= lecture-instructor used Lance Levinthal's "68000 Assembly Language Programmi= ng" book. While it wasn't a required text, I bought a used copy and it was mo= st helpful in understanding the internals of the processor. Our lab textbook = was by Antonakos, I believe - unless I am thinking of the 68HC11 course/lab t= hat I took. Too many years ago to keep it all straight! Best of luck and may God bless, -John -----Original Message----- From: Chris via cctalk =20 Sent: Thursday, 26 January, 2023 14:25 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com Subject: [cctalk] 68k textbooks I have a few scanned somewhere. I always kimd of liked Douglas Halls Micropro= cessors and Interfacing: Programming and Hardware for 80x86. It's a large for= mat textbook. There is a 68000 version which I don't have. Curious what textb= ooks other can recommend. As I said I scanned at least 2, maybe 3 some time ago. The Antonakos book see= med to stand out.=20 https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazo= n.com%2F68000-Microprocessor-Hardware-Principles-Applications%2Fdp%2F01366812= 04&data=3D05%7C01%7Cmaxwell%40buffalo.edu%7C205934ca7d024440659108daffd30cc9%= 7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638103579171222780%7CUnknown%7CT= WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D= %7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3D8Voh98%2F5ol5Z9knqLJLfeYkqUnjLPZe2FmPEoKZ0dhQ%3D&res= erved=3D0 --===============2730666543942238435==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 27 09:41:39 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:41:02 +0100 Message-ID: <16b52f79-ad60-418c-2965-c2be381d66@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <2101410793.233954.1674747050942@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8000837034089671437==" --===============8000837034089671437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T24gVGh1LCAyNiBKYW4gMjAyMywgc2tvZ2thdHQwMDcoYSl5YWhvby5jb20gd3JvdGU6Cj4gQ29t cGFuaWVzwqBkb24ndMKgY2FyZcKgYWJvdXTCoGhpc3RvcnkuwqDCoEl0wqBkb2VzwqBub3TCoGFm ZmVjdMKgdGhlwqBuZXh0Cj4gcXVhcnRlcidzwqBzYWxlcy7CoEnCoGhhZMKgc2VyaWFswqBudW1i ZXLCoDHCoG9mwqBhwqBSYWRpb8KgU2hhY2vCoHNob3J0d2F2ZQo+IHJlY2VpdmVywqBhbmTCoG9m ZmVyZWTCoGl0wqB0b8KgdGhlbS4KPgo+IEnCoGdvdMKgYcKgcmVwbHnCoGJhY2sswqAnSSdtwqBz b3JyeSzCoHdlwqBub8KgbG9uZ2VywqBzdXBwb3J0wqB0aGF0wqBtb2RlbC4nCj4KPiBjaGVlcnMs Cj4KPiBOaWdlbAoKQ2hyaXM6IFBMRUFTRSBMRUFSTiBIT1cgVE8gUVVPVEUgIQoKQ2hyaXN0aWFu Cg== --===============8000837034089671437==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Jan 27 10:03:37 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 04:02:56 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5797222738381353483==" --===============5797222738381353483== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding the 1940s high school yearbook article I mentioned: I think it was 1942 - so the war was still hot. The two boys dropped the typing class since they had signed up for the Service and had other training commitments. On the next page was a list of those who had recently signed up, along with a list of recent graduates who had already been KIA (and on which front it was - Pacific vs Eastern). I'll try to remember next time I'm back home, to get a photocopy of that article - maybe post it at the CHM forum as an interesting reminder about the past. I remember chuckling that the 20wpm wasn't too much to be proud of. But, do have to consider the context: they probably didn't have typewriters at home, not sure how the requested content to type was presented (projected onto a wall or on a lettersheet next to them?), and what equipment they had. And just had a thought: if we could find 20-30 working condition type writers today, I wonder how modern high school students would do in a "typing contest" in that equipment -- would they type too fast and jam the things up, ruining both their accuracy and wpm average? :) Hmmm! On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:15 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > It seems as though MOST of us chose the typing class elective. > Disproportionately more than the general population. > > > We also probably don't have very many athletes here. Although lugging > this shit around does build up some strength. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > > --===============5797222738381353483==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 27 11:45:26 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:44:46 +0000 Message-ID: <1158534412.254078.1674819886337@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1908297977852960134==" --===============1908297977852960134== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 On Thursday, January 26, 2023, 11:10:42 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:15 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school. > I had typing as an elective class in 7th grade in 1984. It gave me the ability to type in programs faster. Sellam C: i took typing as a senior in 1985. The lady was a former military officer,= in her 60s or later. Everyone was scared shirtless of her. 1 puerto rican gi= rl who sat up front could do 90wpm. Me, I sat in the back. I'm still a very f= lawed typist. Iow I suck. =20 --===============1908297977852960134==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 27 11:54:12 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:53:42 +0000 Message-ID: <475508898.256949.1674820422150@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2442460360946522562==" --===============2442460360946522562== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, January 27, 2023, 12:42:46 AM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:15 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > We also probably don't have very many athletes here. Although lugging > this shit around does build up some strength. > Ahem. I was league champion in shotput in 10th grade (43+ feet with an 8lb shot). But yes, mongering vintage computers builds core strength. Sellam C: there never was a person worse at sports then me. Despite my height I was = the worst at basketball. Can't stand the game anyway. I suppose I could whack= a softball pretty far if I managed to hit it. My shining moment was in 3rd g= rade when me and another kid won the blue ribbon in the 3 legged race. And wo= n it handily I might add. Whooped everyone else on the field. I won a lot of = cred that day also. =20 --===============2442460360946522562==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Jan 27 12:06:46 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:06:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <475508898.256949.1674820422150@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2909077426976081481==" --===============2909077426976081481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:53 AM Chris via cctalk w= rote: > C: there never was a person worse at sports then me. You have not met me! If I manage to kick or throw a ball, it will go about +/- 1 radian of where I would like it to go. I can run 100m in about 10 minutes. Get the idea? I''ll stick to getting my exercise by putting minicomputers into racks and carrying so-called portable computers on public transport. The only 'exercisers' in use here are the ones for disk drives and the like. -tony --===============2909077426976081481==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Jan 27 14:25:38 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: in need of 2.5" disks Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:25:00 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6a5e77d52ad1247705260f9785a1b89b@ugr.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9100874114423413332==" --===============9100874114423413332== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 20:38, Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: > > On 2023-01-23 20:59, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > > There was the Amstrad floppy. I think it was 3". Hopefully didn't get > > out > > of the UK. > > Why would you say such a thing? Of course it got out of the UK and came > into Europe, where I could get them, use them, and enjoy them Exactly so! They were a good design. Exceptionally robust, and designed to be posted directly, without an envelope, as the shutter can't be opened by hand, only by the drive. Hitachi's mechanical design was IMHO superior to Sony's of the 3½" diskette. > I was never lucky enough to own a PCW, but I still haven't lost the hope > to get one some day. I need to check some boxes but I think I have 2 PCW9512s. I could be persuaded to part with one. But you'd save money driving to Prague to collect it, rather than shipping the 3 large boxes! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============9100874114423413332==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Jan 27 14:29:35 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:28:57 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7228398747692426471==" --===============7228398747692426471== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 21:59, Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: > > Well, nobody teaches that... At least, nobody has taught me that, nor > have I ever seen anybody do that. In the early days, Apple did when it first introduced them, and some of the 1st PC laptops with them played little tutorial videos. But that was last century now. > And I have seen many people > complaining about how useless they are... Me too, but more seem to like than dislike them. :-( And they are solid-state and take no maintenance or cleaning, so they save manufacturers money. :-( Also, they support gestures, for people weaned on touchscreens, so I think their grip will not easily be broken. I dislike gestures and turn them off. As I type, on a circa 14 year old Thinkpad, which got a RAM upgrade yesterday, my trackpad is disabled and I have only a CLIT mouse. (Centrally Located Input Tool, of course.) > Now, for the first time in my life, have I access to this extremely > important information. :-D > Acceptably by which measurement? I hate them! I hate them! I hate them > with all my might! I disable them in all laptops when possible, either > by hardware or by software. > > But I'm trying one right now and, for the first time in many years, > thanks to this very email of yours, I'm seeing the point of this > freaking thing. I might even start to use it now instead of reaching for > a mouse when keyboard shortcuts don't cut it (almost exclusively while > browsing some very badly designed or heavily graphics loaded web sites). > > Thank you! Oh, well, great. I am very happy I was able to help! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7228398747692426471==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Jan 27 14:31:58 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (CRT Risk) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:31:22 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <56769202-e74b-3122-07d8-08be587846e6@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7429814122418922966==" --===============7429814122418922966== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 at 21:26, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > > This Subject: line is damaging my brain. It's such an old name, the 2nd E has worn right out of it. I mean it is the most commonly-used letter. It was always likely to fail first. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7429814122418922966==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Jan 27 14:41:59 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:41:29 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2090150768062809115==" --===============2090150768062809115== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/26/23 16:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> In college, for a while, I did some temp work keypunching.  I was not a >> fast typist, but I managed to outperform many of the other keypunchers >> simply becaause the first thing that I did was to look at the card >> format, and punch a drum card.  For some reason many keypunchers think >> that drum cards are too technical for them to do! > > One of the things from high school that has proved to be of immense > value was the summer I took a typing class. Legendless keys Underwood > standard office typewriter. > THIS! I took a typing class my freshman year of HS. I was the only guy in a room full of girls and IBM Selectrics. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============2090150768062809115==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Fri Jan 27 14:50:25 2023 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:49:49 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3104981565171787358==" --===============3104981565171787358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sophomore year of high school for me in 1978. =20 My mother thought it would be a good idea. She was right! Standard size Olympia manual typewriters..... Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. http://hammondorganservice.com Hammond USA warranty service "Most people don=E2=80=99t have a sense of humor. They think they do, but the= y don=E2=80=99t." --Jonathan Winters =20 -----Original Message----- From: geneb via cctalk =20 Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 6:41 AM To: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Cc: geneb Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Mar= yland Man THIS! I took a typing class my freshman year of HS. I was the only guy in a= room full of girls and IBM Selectrics. :D g. --===============3104981565171787358==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Fri Jan 27 14:56:51 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:54:11 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1158534412.254078.1674819886337@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5877013198113196222==" --===============5877013198113196222== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > C: i took typing as a senior in 1985. The lady was a former military office= r, in her 60s or later. Everyone was scared shirtless of her. 1 puerto rican = girl who sat up front could do 90wpm. Me, I sat in the back. I'm still a very= flawed typist. Iow I suck. > =20 Hm. I took typing in 7th grade and was able to type at a solid 70 words=20 per minute. And it's the only class I flunked in. Reason: We had selectrics with all the letters wiped off the keyboards=20 to encourage us to type properly. I couldn't do it, so instead I simply=20 memorized the keyboard layout, then did 3 finger+2 thumb hunt and peck=20 through the class. When the teacher realized this she was furious. Zero. --===============5877013198113196222==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jan 27 15:07:54 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:07:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6023569301118358794==" --===============6023569301118358794== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jan 27, 2023, 6:56 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hm. I took typing in 7th grade and was able to type at a solid 70 words > per minute. And it's the only class I flunked in. > > Reason: We had selectrics with all the letters wiped off the keyboards > to encourage us to type properly. I couldn't do it, so instead I simply > memorized the keyboard layout, then did 3 finger+2 thumb hunt and peck > through the class. > Roughly similar with me. But in my case, I found the "proper" finger and wrist posture that was enforced to be extremely unnatural and uncomfortable (and probably why Carpal Tunnel Syndrome became a thing). So I developed my own style that involves basically 2-3 fingers on the left hand, 1-2 fingers on the right, plus thumbs (usually the left one) for space. When I'm in the zone I can easily achieve around 80WPM with high accuracy. Sellam > --===============6023569301118358794==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Jan 27 15:19:40 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:19:13 -0600 Message-ID: <618677335.2523814.1674832753151@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1361543152428654083==" --===============1361543152428654083== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 01/27/2023 8:41 AM CST geneb via cctalk wrote: > > > > ... my freshman year of HS. I was the only guy > in a room full of girls ... > > g. > And the downside of this was...? Will --===============1361543152428654083==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Jan 27 15:27:59 2023 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:27:29 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <618677335.2523814.1674832753151@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1802828657968314143==" --===============1802828657968314143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> On 01/27/2023 8:41 AM CST geneb via cctalk wrote: >> >>> >> ... my freshman year of HS. I was the only guy >> in a room full of girls ... >> >> g. >> > > And the downside of this was...? > They never shut up. EVER. It was like trying to read in the middle of a car accident. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============1802828657968314143==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 27 16:11:59 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:11:29 -0700 Message-ID: <7f596272-443a-232c-71b8-39dfe805ee44@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <618677335.2523814.1674832753151@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8051798442211249855==" --===============8051798442211249855== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-01-27 8:19 a.m., Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> On 01/27/2023 8:41 AM CST geneb via cctalk wrote: >> >>> >> ... my freshman year of HS. I was the only guy >> in a room full of girls ... >> >> g. >> > > And the downside of this was...? > > Will no TIME OF COURSE. :) --===============8051798442211249855==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Jan 27 16:23:41 2023 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:23:11 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2053420101607871100==" --===============2053420101607871100== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/26/23 19:13, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 26, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> I take that back about Versatec, CHM has a document from 1970 on their >> electrostatic printer: >> >> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X163.83A >> >> I know that Lawrence Livermore had one and used it quite a bit back in >> the day. >> >> --Chuck > I worked with one of those on the PLATO system in 1976, where it was used i= n bitmap graphics mode to print music scores. That at first worked very badl= y because the paper transport was chain driven, with enough slack in the dri= ve that if you'd stop and start it, you'd get irregular paper feeding with as= a result gaps in the graphics. I fixed this by writing a new driver that wa= s designed to stream, so it would never stop in mid-job. Interesting.=C2=A0 I maintained a bunch of Versatec 1200A=20 printers at work, and ended up with a couple of them at=20 home.=C2=A0 horrible paper, like a dirty chalkboard, smelly=20 toner, if the paper was handled before it dried the toner=20 could come off on your hands, etc.=C2=A0 But, I had never seen=20 the issue with gaps in graphics, and our drivers, especially=20 on the Nat Semi 16032 system was VERY slow in graphics mode. When laser printers came out, I was VERRRY glad to move into=20 the future! Jon --===============2053420101607871100==-- From david@kdbarto.org Fri Jan 27 17:16:21 2023 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:15:48 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1158534412.254078.1674819886337@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9179025220546562012==" --===============9179025220546562012== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:15 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school. >>=20 >=20 > I had typing as an elective class in 7th grade in 1984. It gave me the > ability to type in programs faster. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > C: i took typing as a senior in 1985. The lady was a former military office= r, in her 60s or later. Everyone was scared shirtless of her. 1 puerto rican = girl who sat up front could do 90wpm. Me, I sat in the back. I'm still a very= flawed typist. Iow I suck. I took typing as an elective in summer school before my senior year of high s= chool, in preparation for typing papers at college. I failed the class becaus= e I would backspace and overtype the wrong character. In college I used UCSD Pascal on Terak=E2=80=99s. So I could backspace to my = hearts content. Still not a very good typist, and at least now the backspace doesn=E2=80=99t = screw up what I send out. (I took care to count the number of times I had to backspace while typing thi= s message: 5) David --===============9179025220546562012==-- From turing@shaw.ca Fri Jan 27 17:48:43 2023 From: Norman Jaffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:48:15 -0700 Message-ID: <1263063249.5988274.1674841695498.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4178173934171770143==" --===============4178173934171770143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In high school I had signed up for an electronics class and then my family tr= ansferred to another city.=20 In the high school that I then enrolled in, there was no electronics class so= I was given the option of another class - I chose typing, which turned out t= o be a great choice.=20 Since I had started the class mid-semester I wasn't required to pass any prof= iciency test, so it didn't matter how fast I was.=20 At the same time, I learned to touch-type which was perfect when I became inv= olved with computers, as all the other programmers were doing hunt-and-peck! = From: "David Barto via cctalk" =20 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" =20 Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com, "David Barto" =20 Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 9:15:48 AM=20 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school=20 > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:15 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <=20 > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:=20 >=20 >>=20 >> And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school.=20 >>=20 >=20 > I had typing as an elective class in 7th grade in 1984. It gave me the=20 > ability to type in programs faster.=20 >=20 > Sellam=20 >=20 > C: i took typing as a senior in 1985. The lady was a former military office= r, in her 60s or later. Everyone was scared shirtless of her. 1 puerto rican = girl who sat up front could do 90wpm. Me, I sat in the back. I'm still a very= flawed typist. Iow I suck.=20 I took typing as an elective in summer school before my senior year of high s= chool, in preparation for typing papers at college. I failed the class becaus= e I would backspace and overtype the wrong character.=20 In college I used UCSD Pascal on Terak=E2=80=99s. So I could backspace to my = hearts content.=20 Still not a very good typist, and at least now the backspace doesn=E2=80=99t = screw up what I send out.=20 (I took care to count the number of times I had to backspace while typing thi= s message: 5)=20 David=20 --===============4178173934171770143==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 27 18:10:57 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 18:10:30 +0000 Message-ID: <1327101694.378147.1674843030687@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1263063249.5988274.1674841695498.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2141709852035035137==" --===============2141709852035035137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How could I forget to mention. Procured a copy of Mavis Beacon for the Tandy= 1000 a number of years ago. Always wanted to hone my decrepit skills. I want= to say I scanned the short manual and imaged the disk. I can't swear to it t= hough. I want to write a book. You know on the puter. Type it. Need that prog= ram. =20 --===============2141709852035035137==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Jan 27 18:37:23 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 13:36:47 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4587235406709026034==" --===============4587235406709026034== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/26/2023 11:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > It seems as though MOST of us chose the typing class elective. > Disproportionately more than the general population. > > > We also probably don't have very many athletes here.  Although lugging > this shit around does build up some strength. > > I fit into both categories.  Took typing in 1967/1968. Was an athlete, but not in high school.  Us poor kids weren't allowed in that clique.  But I did become an athlete in later years and still do CrossFit today. bill --===============4587235406709026034==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jan 27 18:59:47 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 13:58:49 -0500 Message-ID: <7CE1DC61-E959-4A93-B7D7-2E89347CB841@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2315010227102402147==" --===============2315010227102402147== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 27, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 1/26/23 19:13, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>> On Jan 26, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> I take that back about Versatec, CHM has a document from 1970 on their >>> electrostatic printer: >>>=20 >>> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X163.83A >>>=20 >>> I know that Lawrence Livermore had one and used it quite a bit back in >>> the day. >>>=20 >>> --Chuck >> I worked with one of those on the PLATO system in 1976, where it was used = in bitmap graphics mode to print music scores. That at first worked very bad= ly because the paper transport was chain driven, with enough slack in the dr= ive that if you'd stop and start it, you'd get irregular paper feeding with a= s a result gaps in the graphics. I fixed this by writing a new driver that w= as designed to stream, so it would never stop in mid-job. > Interesting. I maintained a bunch of Versatec 1200A printers at work, and = ended up with a couple of them at home. horrible paper, like a dirty chalkbo= ard, smelly toner, if the paper was handled before it dried the toner could c= ome off on your hands, etc. But, I had never seen the issue with gaps in gra= phics, and our drivers, especially on the Nat Semi 16032 system was VERY slow= in graphics mode. Perhaps it was misalignment, or maybe a different model. I definitely rememb= er the chain drive, and the play it had, and the defective printout. The sol= ution was to run in "streaming mode" -- non-stop data. Hard to do given that= the mainframe ran a bunch of high priority real time jobs: the PLATO compone= nts. Solution: do the entire job in a peripheral processor, using the CPU on= ly to provide an I/O buffer area for reading the file being printed. I remember the funny paper, not so much the smelly toner. It wasn't as bad a= s the screen capture printer we had one floor down, made (I think) by Varian = -- it somehow captured the image on the orange dot plasma panel display using= strange paper and nasty liquid toner. The process used is a mystery to me; = it had to be some optical magic because you can't, as far as I know, read out= the state of a PLATO terminal plasma panel electronically. Those panels are= bistable, the pixels are actual memory cells, but I can't think of a way to = sense electrically whether one is on or off. > When laser printers came out, I was VERRRY glad to move into the future! >=20 > Jon Definitely. paul --===============2315010227102402147==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 27 19:11:25 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:10:54 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1327101694.378147.1674843030687@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0504687765706965686==" --===============0504687765706965686== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > can't swear to it though. I want to write a book. You know on the puter. > Type it. Need that program. First draft of my Honda book was on my father's WWII manual portable typewriter. Then my co-author would edit and pay somebody to re-type, and the publisher (JMP in Santa Fe) would edit and re-type. For the nest round, I used Electric Pencil. I had a DTC-300 (Hi-Type I daisy wheel that I traded a Honda 600 for). I printed 8" wide on 15" paper. I printed two copies, 8" centered for the editor, and 8" left justified for the artist (Peter Ashwanden, the best automotive illustrator in the business). At the time, I could get 15" paper with tear off for the pin-feeds, AND perforation to tear off at 8.5" wide! They both loved the space for comments or doodles, and were quite willing to send back marked copy for me to incorporate the changes, with the artist tearing off and keeping the right side with his sketches. It wasn't until late in the project that I finally got the publisher to get a computer. They still printed out and gave printouts to their typist (150WPM!) to key into the Linoterm. I was unable at the time to write to the Linotern 8" disks. But, one time that I visited them, I connected TRS80 with Rochester Dynatyper, and did a "printout" by having the Dynatyper beat on the keys of the Linoterm. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0504687765706965686==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 27 19:22:50 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:22:23 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <618677335.2523814.1674832753151@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2977256847338005122==" --===============2977256847338005122== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > THIS! I took a typing class > my freshman year of HS. I was the only guy > in a room full of girls and IBM Selectrics. :D On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> ... my freshman year of HS. I was the only guy >> in a room full of girls ... > And the downside of this was...? When quoting, you left off his big grin! and the Selectrics. Computer printers for early microcomputers were hideously expensive. There were a couple of outfits (one in Walnut Creek), who made kits to convert Selectrics into computer printers! There were also the Rochester DynaTyper and the KGS-80 that consisted of a box of solenoids to set on top of the keyboard! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2977256847338005122==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 27 19:42:06 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:41:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1263063249.5988274.1674841695498.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2250400370298205086==" --===============2250400370298205086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-27 10:48 a.m., Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > In high school I had signed up for an electronics class and then my family = transferred to another city. > In the high school that I then enrolled in, there was no electronics class = so I was given the option of another class - I chose typing, which turned out= to be a great choice. > Since I had started the class mid-semester I wasn't required to pass any pr= oficiency test, so it didn't matter how fast I was. > At the same time, I learned to touch-type which was perfect when I became i= nvolved with computers, as all the other programmers were doing hunt-and-peck! >=20 PECK PECK HUNT PECK HUNT Still am, but I like a good key board.Ben. --===============2250400370298205086==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Jan 27 19:47:28 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:46:53 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3579927966881672802==" --===============3579927966881672802== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/27/2023 2:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Computer printers for early microcomputers were hideously expensive. > There were a couple of outfits (one in Walnut Creek), who made kits to > convert Selectrics into computer printers! > There were also the Rochester DynaTyper and the KGS-80 that consisted > of a box of solenoids to set on top of the keyboard! > My first computer printer for use on my TRS-80 was a Lorenz LO15. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49329523523_61d7a79b55_b.jpg bill --===============3579927966881672802==-- From brian@marstella.net Fri Jan 27 19:48:32 2023 From: Brian Marstella To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:47:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3555672118943395041==" --===============3555672118943395041== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of good keyboards, my typing class used IBM Selectrics for the lucky people but we also had some older Underwoods and Royals in the class. You got those when you irritated the teacher. I took Typing I & II and it's worked out great as every job I've had since required lots of typing. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 2:41 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2023-01-27 10:48 a.m., Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > > In high school I had signed up for an electronics class and then my > family transferred to another city. > > In the high school that I then enrolled in, there was no electronics > class so I was given the option of another class - I chose typing, which > turned out to be a great choice. > > Since I had started the class mid-semester I wasn't required to pass any > proficiency test, so it didn't matter how fast I was. > > At the same time, I learned to touch-type which was perfect when I > became involved with computers, as all the other programmers were doing > hunt-and-peck! > > > PECK PECK HUNT PECK HUNT > Still am, but I like a good key board.Ben. > > > --===============3555672118943395041==-- From rickb@bensene.com Fri Jan 27 19:50:13 2023 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:41:30 -0800 Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4C88@mail.bensene.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0930498494726242156==" --===============0930498494726242156== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>=20 >> And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school. >>=20 >=20 > I had typing as an elective class in 7th grade in 1984. It gave me the > ability to type in programs faster. >=20 I took typing class in High School all four years. Because I had developed an interest in typing when I was much younger, one of= my relatives had given me an old Royal typewriter when I was something like = 6 years old. =20 I was proficient with the alphabet and had a pretty good vocabulary for my ag= e, so I started to use the typewriter to write out my ideas for various inven= tions that I thought up(most of which were completely impossible, but I actua= lly did make some of them). Of course, I typed in a way that was my own creation. It was at first hunt= and peck, and evolved as I got more familiar with the layout of the keyboard= into my own version of touch typing.=20 I started using a Teletype 33ASR in sixth grade for learning programming on t= he HP 2000C timeshared BASIC system that the county school system owned, and = the familiarity with a typewriter keyboard meant that I got pretty good at ty= ping on the Teletype - being able to type on it about as fast as the mechanis= m would allow. =20 Since the vocabulary for typing in BASIC programs was fairly limited, my fing= ers got muscle memory on the various keywords and I could rip them out such t= hat the interlock on the keyboard held back the pressure of the finger to typ= e the next character in a keyword that when the mechanism finished printing, = that key would immediately be depressed. About the only place I slowed down a= little was typing literal text in PRINT statements, math expressions, and pr= int formats in IMAGE statements. By the time I got to the High School typing class, I could easily type 70-80 = WPM with very low error rates for extended periods of time, and could burst u= p to 110WPM. But, I typed in a way that was completely incorrect as far as t= he formal way of typing goes. After the first few weeks of class, it became apparent to the instructor that= I could type quite well, as well as quite quickly, but I did it all wrong. = I was the second fastest typist in the class (there was a girl in the class = who was faster), but I had the lowest error rate in sustained high-speed typi= ng. The teacher was a great guy. He was constantly on me to type the right way = out of due diligence, but didn't press it, and I'd constantly ignore him. He would stand over me and watch me type, and would shake his head in both di= sgust, and in marvel that I could type as fast as I did using a completely bi= zarre method. He often told me that it was a wonder that I didn't tie my fin= gers into knots typing the way that I did. When it came time to grade my performance in the class, he was torn. He told= me that he wanted to give me a failing grade because I did not learn the pro= per way to type, but at the same time because I could type all of the materia= l very accurately and quickly, he could not help but give me an A because I p= erformed better than the vast majority of the students in the class despite t= he bizarre way that I typed.=20 I still use this strange way of typing to this day (many decades later), and = can still type pretty darned fast, although my error rate has crept up quite = a bit due to arthritis in my fingers, as well as general neurological degrada= tion due to age. It works for me, and in the end, I got all As in typing cla= ss for all four years. I took the class after my Freshman year even though i= t was no longer required (it was required for all students to pass at least o= ne year of typing in order to graduate, which was quite forward-thinking for = those days) because I really liked the teacher, and the practice was good for= keeping my speed up and error rate down, which proved very helpful for writi= ng papers later on in High School, as well as in my computer programming clas= ses and work after I graduated. It's always interesting to study the unusual methods that get used when peopl= e (especially young people) come up with their own ways of doing things out o= f interest or necessity versus what is the traditionally-trained way. =20 I think in a lot of cases as people get into the school systems, their unique= ways of doing things get trained out of them, even though their unique metho= ds had evolved into a superior means of accomplishing something. =20 I had a great deal of respect for this typing teacher for realizing that my u= nique way of typing worked very well for me, didn't affect the results of wha= t was required, and thus left me alone and didn't try to force the "correct" = way on me. It is unfortunate that the insight that this teacher had is not more common i= n the educational realm. RIP Al Yanzic! -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon --===============0930498494726242156==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 27 20:00:59 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:00:24 +0000 Message-ID: <714214268.432863.1674849624341@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2552143983654059779==" --===============2552143983654059779== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit @ Fred - " ...in Walnut Creek..." C: any affiation to WC CD-ROM? Wiki says they were around in ms-dos says. --===============2552143983654059779==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 27 20:01:47 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:01:21 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4C88@mail.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1637696399585025491==" --===============1637696399585025491== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > I was proficient with the alphabet and had a pretty good vocabulary for > my age, so I started to use the typewriter to write out my ideas for > various inventions that I thought up(most of which were completely > impossible, but I actually did make some of them). You can only actually make them if you don't know that they are impossible until after you have made them. (Wile E. Coyote principle) --===============1637696399585025491==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Jan 27 20:17:10 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:16:27 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6780425823641057971==" --===============6780425823641057971== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:01 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > I was proficient with the alphabet and had a pretty good vocabulary for > > my age, so I started to use the typewriter to write out my ideas for > > various inventions that I thought up(most of which were completely > > impossible, but I actually did make some of them). > > You can only actually make them if you don't know that they are impossible > until after you have made them. (Wile E. Coyote principle) > Some of the most amazing inventions came about because the inventor never got the memo saying it was impossible. Sellam --===============6780425823641057971==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 27 20:46:45 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:46:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <714214268.432863.1674849624341@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2877222304748624621==" --===============2877222304748624621== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> There were a couple of outfits (one in Walnut Creek), who made kits to >> convert Selectrics into computer printers! On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > @ Fred - " ...in Walnut Creek..." > C: any affiation to WC CD-ROM? Wiki says they were around in ms-dos says. No, not related. The Escon typewriter conversion kits were long gone before CD-ROMs, possibly before 5150! And, by that time, Tandy offered more affordable printers, and IBM sold what seems to be a re-badged Epson MX-80, so there was no longer need desperate enough to convert Selectrics. https://vintagecomputer.ca/escon-selectric-kit/ https://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Escon/ It is unlikely, but not impossible, that there could be overlap of people involved. The company official address (and corporation) was listed as San Ramon, but warranty service was in Pleasant Hill, and there were retail sales out of Walnut Creek. Walnut Creek CD-ROM started in 1991 The first official MS-DOS support of CD-ROMs was 1984? in DOS 3.10 (that is "three point ten", not "three point one" (Int 21, function 30h returns 3 in AL and 0Ah in AH)) It included MSCDEX and used redirection; since MS-DOS did not support drives larger than 32MB until 3.31, the "redirector" made the CD-ROM look like a remote drive "on the network". Try doing a CHKDSK of a CD-ROM. MSCDEX was supported on 3.10 on, but was not included in MS-DOS distribution until 6.x, and/or Win3.11 (Win setup/install for 3.00 and 3.10 were eventually available on CD-ROM!) MSCDEX aparently uses the [undocumented] Int 2Fh network redirestor. It can be patched to work with DOS 3.00, and a few people did claim to have created programs to access CD-ROMs in DOS from 2.00 on! In addition to MSCDEX, DOS also needed drivers to access the CD-ROM drive. Those were specific to the controller card. ASPI simplified SCSI access. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2877222304748624621==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Jan 27 20:51:08 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 15:50:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3439503342093609967==" --===============3439503342093609967== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/27/2023 3:46 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >  and IBM sold what seems to be a re-badged Epson MX-80, Yes, I always got a kick out of these.  Came in an IBM box labeled "Made in USA".  The only thing "Made in USA" was the box. bill --===============3439503342093609967==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jan 27 20:54:17 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:53:48 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580172FD715BD916A213BC3EDCC9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1290814472483892179==" --===============1290814472483892179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>  and IBM sold what seems to be a re-badged Epson MX-80, On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Yes, I always got a kick out of these.  Came in an IBM box labeled "Made in > USA".  The only thing "Made in USA" was the box. So, it was honest to label the box, "Made in USA"? --===============1290814472483892179==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Jan 27 21:00:40 2023 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:00:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7790488984527634432==" --===============7790488984527634432== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/27/2023 3:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>  and IBM sold what seems to be a re-badged Epson MX-80, > > On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Yes, I always got a kick out of these. Came in an IBM box labeled >> "Made in >> USA".  The only thing "Made in USA" was the box. > > So, it was honest to label the box, "Made in USA"? Apparently.  They did it for years until Epson started manufacturing over here. bill --===============7790488984527634432==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Jan 27 21:08:12 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 15:07:41 -0600 Message-ID: <339890575.2609936.1674853661842@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558012B7A5E65B165683D810EDCC9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6568874307851698115==" --===============6568874307851698115== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 01/27/2023 3:00 PM CST Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 1/27/2023 3:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> and IBM sold what seems to be a re-badged Epson MX-80, > > > > On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > Yes, I always got a kick out of these. Came in an IBM box labeled > > > "Made in > > > USA". The only thing "Made in USA" was the box. > > So, it was honest to label the box, "Made in USA"? >=20 > Apparently. They did it for years until Epson started manufacturing > over here. >=20 >=20 > bill That was a common practice in those days. I remember seeing news stories abo= ut it. I "think" a law was passed in late 80s forbidding that. A lot of pro= ducts now say "this box was (proudly) made in the USA. Will --===============6568874307851698115==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Jan 27 21:21:33 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 15:21:02 -0600 Message-ID: <56086791.2612648.1674854462011@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <339890575.2609936.1674853661842@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2008232009127291680==" --===============2008232009127291680== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > That was a common practice in those days. I remember seeing news stories ab= out it. I "think" a law was passed in late 80s forbidding that. A lot of prod= ucts now say "this box was (proudly) made in the USA. > Will https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/complying-made-usa-standard#q= ualified Third example under. U.S. origin claims for specific processes or parts Apparently passed in 1997. Will --===============2008232009127291680==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Jan 27 22:39:40 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:39:04 -0800 Message-ID: <22e2c80e-1d76-28ee-1ae2-14abc505a6c1@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6761670488188163459==" --===============6761670488188163459== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/27/23 11:47, Brian Marstella via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of good keyboards, my typing class used IBM Selectrics for the > lucky people but we also had some older Underwoods and Royals in the class. > You got those when you irritated the teacher. I took Typing I & II and it's > worked out great as every job I've had since required lots of typing. > Speaking of keyboards, were there any computer keyboards or typewriter keyboards with interposer mechanisms such as used on IBM keypunches? I recall that was one thing that had a very different "feel" from a typewriter keyboard. It changed my keyboarding style. --Chuck --===============6761670488188163459==-- From spc@conman.org Fri Jan 27 23:12:21 2023 From: Sean Conner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 18:11:38 -0500 Message-ID: <20230127231138.GA12881@brevard.conman.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2442078545519703795==" --===============2442078545519703795== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was thus said that the Great Steve Lewis via cctalk once stated: > Regarding the 1940s high school yearbook article I mentioned: I think it > was 1942 - so the war was still hot. The two boys dropped the typing class > since they had signed up for the Service and had other training > commitments. My grandfather, who served in WWII [1], knew I had an interest in computers, so he got me a portable typewriter (which I still have) and a typing book (first published in 1923) so that I may learn how to type. He said that not only would it serve me well with computers, but also in the military. [2]. I do recall there being typing classes, both in middle and high school, but never took it as a class. -spc [1] He served in the Navy, on a sub, in the Pacific. He never did talk much about his service, although I do know that at least one sub he served on was sunk by Japan. [2] He probably felt that knowing how to type would keep me from the front lines and most likely safe. Can't blame him on that logic. --===============2442078545519703795==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Jan 27 23:42:48 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 23:42:15 +0000 Message-ID: <730323183.518930.1674862935169@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <22e2c80e-1d76-28ee-1ae2-14abc505a6c1@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7089132524821050999==" --===============7089132524821050999== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trimble! I believe that was my drill seargent typing teacher's name was. My = idiot friend who sat in front (maybe even in a different class) would call he= r Ms. Tremble. Because she made him do that. =20 --===============7089132524821050999==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sat Jan 28 01:23:36 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC VR14 TO-3 heat-sink socket? Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 09:22:45 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0122878950213258279==" --===============0122878950213258279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I finally got around to replace the dead TO-3 power transistors in my VR-14. They are mounted on the power supply regulator heat sink using TO-3 sockets made by AUGAT. Unfortunately one of the sockets has been broken by somebody in the past by over-tightening the transistor mounting screws. This may have been the root cause of the power supply failure as one transistor was doing all the work with the second transistor's collector lead having poor or no connection. There are two NPN transistors in parallel to double the power which is not a very good design anyway. I am trying to find the original Augat sockets. Here are some links to photos showing a closeup of the socket and the threaded insert with the originally crimped collector tab which broke out of the bakelite socket: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MXclwHLDmoz_P2ub7tPc9oqSgrDbnTzR/view?usp=3D= sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XJ7DpGA5Zx0ZSqDVL_gdBSWYuKdFHLlR/view?usp=3D= sharing I would be grateful for any help trying to source these AUGAT made TO-3 sockets. I had no luck finding stock of these with Google and Ebay. Thanks and best regards Tom --===============0122878950213258279==-- From gavin@learn.bio Sat Jan 28 03:27:55 2023 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 21:27:12 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <730323183.518930.1674862935169@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1015952817629225771==" --===============1015952817629225771== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I took typing as a high school elective in like 1979. I never learned to type. To this day, I can type really fast and accurately as long as I don't think about what I'm doing. G. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 5:42 PM Chris via cctalk wr= ote: > > Trimble! I believe that was my drill seargent typing teacher's name was. M= y idiot friend who sat in front (maybe even in a different class) would call = her Ms. Tremble. Because she made him do that. --===============1015952817629225771==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sat Jan 28 06:52:05 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] cctalk archives not updating Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 14:51:15 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4651760904242535119==" --===============4651760904242535119== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It appears that the cctalk archives stopped updating in July 2022. See the link below: https://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ Could the new list admin please re-enable the archive feature of the mailing list and if possible fill in the missing months since July 2022. Thanks and best regards Tom --===============4651760904242535119==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Sat Jan 28 09:45:02 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk archives not updating Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 09:38:34 +0000 Message-ID: <01SN8H9ZA2RI8X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2733224561880221527==" --===============2733224561880221527== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It appears there was some sort of coup in July 2022. The mailing list owner was apparantly replaced and the list was moved from where it was previously hosted to somewhere new. There were some vague declarations about needing to deal with archives but I never saw any formal or informal announcement decribing what happened to the list or the archives with any clarity back then or since. Regards, Peter Coghlan Tom Hunter wrote: > It appears that the cctalk archives stopped updating in July 2022. See the > link below: > > https://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > Could the new list admin please re-enable the archive feature of the > mailing list and if possible fill in the missing months since July 2022. > > Thanks and best regards > Tom --===============2733224561880221527==-- From bduncan@beachnet.org Sat Jan 28 10:20:57 2023 From: Bill Duncan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:44:45 -0500 Message-ID: <20230127174445.GA1587358@linda> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6857606646579153021==" --===============6857606646579153021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 09:15:48AM -0800, David Barto via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:15 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >=20 > >>=20 > >> And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school. > >>=20 > >=20 > > I had typing as an elective class in 7th grade in 1984. It gave me the > > ability to type in programs faster. > >=20 > > Sellam > >=20 > > C: i took typing as a senior in 1985. The lady was a former military offi= cer, in her 60s or later. Everyone was scared shirtless of her. 1 puerto rica= n girl who sat up front could do 90wpm. Me, I sat in the back. I'm still a ve= ry flawed typist. Iow I suck. >=20 > I took typing as an elective in summer school before my senior year of high= school, in preparation for typing papers at college. I failed the class beca= use I would backspace and overtype the wrong character. >=20 > In college I used UCSD Pascal on Terak???s. So I could backspace to my hear= ts content. >=20 > Still not a very good typist, and at least now the backspace doesn???t scre= w up what I send out. >=20 > (I took care to count the number of times I had to backspace while typing t= his message: 5) >=20 > David >=20 I took typing in high school as an elective. I loved it. I was the only guy i= n the class.. --=20 Bill Duncan, | http://billduncan.org/ bduncan(a)beachnet.org | - linux/unix/network/cloud +1 416 697-9315 | - performance engineering, SRE --===============6857606646579153021==-- From john@yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Jan 28 11:38:03 2023 From: John Many Jars To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:37:20 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230127174445.GA1587358@linda> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7596200994589113723==" --===============7596200994589113723== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I took typing at Tempe High because the future ex-Mrs Firestone was in that class. (Ex Mrs. Firestone the 1st) Most useful class (besides algebra) I took in school... --===============7596200994589113723==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 28 14:02:44 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Multibus card haul Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 14:02:11 +0000 Message-ID: <1108273168.608610.1674914531325@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1108273168.608610.1674914531325.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8656522901139397733==" --===============8656522901139397733== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I obtained a bunch of MB (1?) cards from a fellow list member. Mostly Intel, = 1 Matrox video card. Didn'y see a floppy controller anywhere, but I'll have t= o look closer. I have an Intel 286/20 chassis (the 20 doesn't mean mhz). Got = to get me a keyboard and I'll be all set, right? O how I wish. There's an MDS= keyboard on ebay, kind of pricey. Have to wonder where I'd stick the plug. N= o ribald suggestions please. So apparently my future has taken a turn for the very grim. As I'll be writin= g device drivers from this point until my death. Yep. It's all rawhide and bu= ffalo chips from here on out. Maybe sum yu westerners can give me a hand. Fre= d, Chuck, Sellam. You're all westerners and cowboys apparently. Just rustle u= p some docs and software for me. --===============8656522901139397733==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Sat Jan 28 14:44:31 2023 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Multibus card haul Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 14:44:01 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1108273168.608610.1674914531325@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4529306078546911740==" --===============4529306078546911740== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm assuming that the 286/20 is a series II type with monitor built in? If so, it has a single density floppy controller built into the IOC board. You didn't post any pictures so I can't tell if there is a controller set the= re. Until I left Intel, all the disk controllers were a two board set. One board was had the 3000 ser= ies bit slice chips and the other board had the analog board. When I was there, the double = density, M2FM boards sets were that way. The series II keyboard was just a regular parallel, 8 bit keyboard. The earli= er MDS 800 chassis required a serial terminal. Most of these were made by BeeHive. I left there when they were basically shutting down the development systems. = They wanted to move me to Rosedale, Ca. Dwight ________________________________ From: Chris via cctalk Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2023 6:02 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com Subject: [cctalk] Multibus card haul I obtained a bunch of MB (1?) cards from a fellow list member. Mostly Intel, = 1 Matrox video card. Didn'y see a floppy controller anywhere, but I'll have t= o look closer. I have an Intel 286/20 chassis (the 20 doesn't mean mhz). Got = to get me a keyboard and I'll be all set, right? O how I wish. There's an MDS= keyboard on ebay, kind of pricey. Have to wonder where I'd stick the plug. N= o ribald suggestions please. So apparently my future has taken a turn for the very grim. As I'll be writin= g device drivers from this point until my death. Yep. It's all rawhide and bu= ffalo chips from here on out. Maybe sum yu westerners can give me a hand. Fre= d, Chuck, Sellam. You're all westerners and cowboys apparently. Just rustle u= p some docs and software for me. --===============4529306078546911740==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Jan 28 15:05:01 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Multibus card haul Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:04:31 +0000 Message-ID: <1090089238.630769.1674918271712@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB69415625D599BEF0031BB09EA3CD9=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9070946572186917024==" --===============9070946572186917024== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's just an empty chassis. It and the blue dual floppy MDS drive cabinet ar= e the only 2 MB items I've owned for years.=20 Maybe I have the part # wrong. I habe to dig itnout. Looks like this or very = similar: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102652384_[1] =20 --===============9070946572186917024==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Sat Jan 28 18:08:00 2023 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk archives not updating Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 13:07:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7885649726134170742==" --===============7885649726134170742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try the new archive https://classiccmp.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/cctalk(a)classiccmp.org/ Linked to from the classiccmp page https://classiccmp.org/lists.html On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 02:51:15PM +0800, Tom Hunter wrote: > It appears that the cctalk archives stopped updating in July 2022. See the > link below: > > https://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > Could the new list admin please re-enable the archive feature of the > mailing list and if possible fill in the missing months since July 2022. > > Thanks and best regards > Tom > > ------------------------------ --===============7885649726134170742==-- From pat@vax11.net Sat Jan 28 21:07:56 2023 From: Patrick Finnegan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk archives not updating Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 16:07:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SN8H9ZA2RI8X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5599235624538756545==" --===============5599235624538756545== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If by "coup" you mean rescued from getting turned off, then yes. Patrick Finnegan On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 04:44 Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > It appears there was some sort of coup in July 2022. The mailing list owner > was apparantly replaced and the list was moved from where it was previously > hosted to somewhere new. There were some vague declarations about needing > to > deal with archives but I never saw any formal or informal announcement > decribing what happened to the list or the archives with any clarity back > then or since. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > > Tom Hunter wrote: > > It appears that the cctalk archives stopped updating in July 2022. See > the > > link below: > > > > https://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > > > Could the new list admin please re-enable the archive feature of the > > mailing list and if possible fill in the missing months since July 2022. > > > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom > --===============5599235624538756545==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Sat Jan 28 21:57:48 2023 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk archives not updating Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:45:11 +0000 Message-ID: <01SN96UV06Y68X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1293797553244785886==" --===============1293797553244785886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I don't really know because as far as I can tell, there was nothing said to the ordinary list members about what happened. I assumed some sort of emergency arose and that an announcement would be made in due course when the pressure was off so I waited to see. Nothing appeared. I'm still in the dar= k. You seem to know something about it? Can you enlighten those of us that don'= t? Regards, Peter Coghlan. Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > If by "coup" you mean rescued from getting turned off, then yes. >=20 > Patrick Finnegan >=20 > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 04:44 Peter Coghlan via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> It appears there was some sort of coup in July 2022. The mailing list owner >> was apparantly replaced and the list was moved from where it was previously >> hosted to somewhere new. There were some vague declarations about needing >> to >> deal with archives but I never saw any formal or informal announcement >> decribing what happened to the list or the archives with any clarity back >> then or since. >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan >> >> Tom Hunter wrote: >> > It appears that the cctalk archives stopped updating in July 2022. See >> the >> > link below: >> > >> > https://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ >> > >> > Could the new list admin please re-enable the archive feature of the >> > mailing list and if possible fill in the missing months since July 2022. >> > >> > Thanks and best regards >> > Tom >> --===============1293797553244785886==-- From g-wright@att.net Sat Jan 28 21:58:15 2023 From: Jerry Wright To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC PDP 11/60's in need of a new home. Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:54:50 +0000 Message-ID: <1945749291.492113.1674942890123@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1945749291.492113.1674942890123.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2795359098478849960==" --===============2795359098478849960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have 2 of these that=C2=A0 are in need of a=C2=A0 new home.=C2=A0 These are= quite large=C2=A0 4 racks each.=C2=A0 Although the 11/60=C2=A0is only a doub= le rack by itself. Offers. Located In Kent. WA. - Jerry253-569-6041 --===============2795359098478849960==-- From steven@malikoff.com Sun Jan 29 01:35:19 2023 From: steven@malikoff.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:34:46 +1000 Message-ID: <3086efad5e59e72902fcafc788eb8745.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> In-Reply-To: <22e2c80e-1d76-28ee-1ae2-14abc505a6c1@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5216744350521339471==" --===============5216744350521339471== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck said > Speaking of keyboards, were there any computer keyboards or typewriter > keyboards with interposer mechanisms such as used on IBM keypunches? I > recall that was one thing that had a very different "feel" from a > typewriter keyboard. It changed my keyboarding style. There were some video terminals with mechanical Selectric keyboards, one for = example being the RCA Spectra 70/752 from the mid/late 60s. For this RCA engineers substantially modified a Selectric 1 keyboard with man= y new bespoke mechanical parts to output 7-bit ASCII directly. The earlier RCA 6050 video data terminal and models 6051-1, 2, 3 Interrogator= used a powered ASR33 keyboard, and the main console of the IBM Office System= /6 workstation also used a powered Selectric keyboard. I've been working on a project for the last few years on and off to recreate = this terminal's keyboard, starting with fixing a rusty seized Selectric II to= operating condition then splitting the keyboard off from the power frame and powering t= he filter shaft with a motor in lieu of the normal print shaft gear train doi= ng it. I machined out the RHS keyboard frame filter shaft (you can see this happenin= g in this picture https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4862890) to accommodate a new filter shaft cycle clutch partially made from IBM spring= clutch parts (not a Selectric clutch but from some other IBM device as it has a urethane drive gear on it, just like the RCA one) and a new 3D printed = clone of the RCA cycle cam/anti-backlash arrangement. The cycle clutch latch rod has been moved from the centre to the right hand f= rame edge as RCA did. Also made a new interposer from a scrap of sheetmetal and additional bail rod= from my stash of Selectric bits for RCA's Bit 7 ASCII, and put spring return= s on these as this was previously done by the Whiffletree mechanism in the power f= rame. So I'm about 2/3rds through it. Next is to finish the cycle detent and also r= ecreate the key interposer ASCII microswitch rack with its 50-or-so milliseco= nd-delay steel clamping plate (RCA called it the 'storage bar') that is driven off the= filter shaft via two steel crank arms pivoting on a new axle rod RCA put acr= oss the lower rear of the keyboard. The plate momentarily holds the 7 clevis rods for= enough time for the terminal's electronics to strobe the microswitches. Final power is to be an old 110v IBM AC synchronous motor from the 1960s I fo= und in my dad's collection of bits that looks identical to the RCA motor, nee= d to make the armature aluminium fan it had and make the standoffs to the keyboard= frame. The pinion on it thankfully meshes with the urethane cycle clutch gea= r. In the meantime I power the keyboard with a LEGO M Power Functions motor with= some 3D printed brackets and a printed LEGO-tooth-compatible gear with a bos= s that clamps onto the filter shaft just exterior to the new cycle clutch. Been taking lots of photos but I've not done a page on this yet until there's= more exciting things happening with it (ie. actual electrical encoding) howe= ver it is fun to power it up and type with a 100% genuine-action Selectric keyboard. This b= eing: Feeling the key drop, which pushes the key lever off its detent spring, sets = up the bail pattern, then the filter shaft rotating to punch the key interpos= er's end and move the bails, and then reset the key lever on the upstroke. All wit= h some of that satisfying Selectric 'clunk'. I say 'some of' because in building and operating this I've realised that a l= ot of the Selectric 'feel' people rave about actually comes from the print sh= aft, tilt/rotate tapes mech, shift cam, Whiffletree and typeball movement all oper= ating in concert (along with its sound) in a fraction of a second, the keyboa= rd mech is only part of it. Steve. --===============5216744350521339471==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jan 29 02:53:50 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 18:53:09 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3086efad5e59e72902fcafc788eb8745.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6257173423889233069==" --===============6257173423889233069== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 5:34 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > There were some video terminals with mechanical Selectric keyboards, one > for example being the RCA Spectra 70/752 from the mid/late 60s. > For this RCA engineers substantially modified a Selectric 1 keyboard with > many new bespoke mechanical parts to output 7-bit ASCII directly. > The earlier RCA 6050 video data terminal and models 6051-1, 2, 3 > Interrogator used a powered ASR33 keyboard, and the main console of the IBM > Office System/6 > workstation also used a powered Selectric keyboard. > > I've been working on a project for the last few years on and off to > recreate this terminal's keyboard, starting with fixing a rusty seized > Selectric II to operating > condition then splitting the keyboard off from the power frame and > powering the filter shaft with a motor in lieu of the normal print shaft > gear train doing it. Steve, This sounds like a very cool project. I'd love to see the photos you have so far. Sellam --===============6257173423889233069==-- From pat@vax11.net Sun Jan 29 03:23:13 2023 From: Patrick Finnegan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk archives not updating Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 22:22:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SN96UV06Y68X0WAU@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6631127021298434451==" --===============6631127021298434451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's being run by someone else, since Jay has retired from the hosting business, and didn't want to keep running it. I'm not sure what else there is to say. Patrick Finnegan On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 16:57 Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Well, I don't really know because as far as I can tell, there was nothing > said > to the ordinary list members about what happened. I assumed some sort of > emergency arose and that an announcement would be made in due course when > the > pressure was off so I waited to see. Nothing appeared. I'm still in the > dark. > You seem to know something about it? Can you enlighten those of us that > don't? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > > If by "coup" you mean rescued from getting turned off, then yes. > > > > Patrick Finnegan > > > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 04:44 Peter Coghlan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> It appears there was some sort of coup in July 2022. The mailing list > owner > >> was apparantly replaced and the list was moved from where it was > previously > >> hosted to somewhere new. There were some vague declarations about > needing > >> to > >> deal with archives but I never saw any formal or informal announcement > >> decribing what happened to the list or the archives with any clarity > back > >> then or since. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Peter Coghlan > >> > >> Tom Hunter wrote: > >> > It appears that the cctalk archives stopped updating in July 2022. See > >> the > >> > link below: > >> > > >> > https://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > >> > > >> > Could the new list admin please re-enable the archive feature of the > >> > mailing list and if possible fill in the missing months since July > 2022. > >> > > >> > Thanks and best regards > >> > Tom > >> > --===============6631127021298434451==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sun Jan 29 03:56:18 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk archives not updating Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:55:35 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6935516573531242240==" --===============6935516573531242240== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks David! On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 2:07 AM David Gesswein via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Try the new archive > https://classiccmp.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/cctalk(a)classiccmp.org/ > > Linked to from the classiccmp page > https://classiccmp.org/lists.html > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 02:51:15PM +0800, Tom Hunter wrote: > > It appears that the cctalk archives stopped updating in July 2022. See > the > > link below: > > > > https://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > > > Could the new list admin please re-enable the archive feature of the > > mailing list and if possible fill in the missing months since July 2022. > > > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom > > > > ------------------------------ > --===============6935516573531242240==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Jan 29 04:07:15 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk archives not updating Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 20:06:45 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9203761490299963614==" --===============9203761490299963614== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 28 Jan 2023, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > It's being run by someone else, since Jay has retired from the hosting > business, and didn't want to keep running it. I'm not sure what else there > is to say. 1) Is Jay OK? Was the retirement by choice? not health or circumstances? Does he have big plans for his retirement? Such as hobbies, travelling, or sitting on the porch chasing the kids off of the lawn? 2) There should be acknowledgement of those behind the curtain, who keep it all running for us! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============9203761490299963614==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jan 29 04:11:06 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 20:10:30 -0800 Message-ID: <74b46732-c261-8c9c-5a4d-c72ebf3065e3@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <3086efad5e59e72902fcafc788eb8745.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5303570501723137983==" --===============5303570501723137983== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/28/23 17:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Chuck said > I say 'some of' because in building and operating this I've realised that a= lot of the Selectric 'feel' people rave about actually comes from the print = shaft, > tilt/rotate tapes mech, shift cam, Whiffletree and typeball movement all op= erating in concert (along with its sound) in a fraction of a second, the keyb= oard > mech is only part of it. >=20 How does your setup differ form the 1052 keyboard? I know that uses a modified 024 keyboard, so interposers. Under DOS/360, a user program could write a CCW string to ring the 1052 bell. If that CCW string included a TIC back to the bell-ring CCW, the bell would just keep ringing with the keyboard locked out. Fun and games, from very many years ago. --Chuck --===============5303570501723137983==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Sun Jan 29 04:21:26 2023 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 23:20:54 -0500 Message-ID: <7ddd648f-8abc-87c5-eaa9-b8f5b3367c53@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <74b46732-c261-8c9c-5a4d-c72ebf3065e3@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7456606654275417918==" --===============7456606654275417918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-28 11:10 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/28/23 17:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> Chuck said > > How does your setup differ form the 1052 keyboard? I know that uses a > modified 024 keyboard, so interposers. > Under DOS/360, a user program could write a CCW string to ring the 1052 > bell. If that CCW string included a TIC back to the bell-ring CCW, the > bell would just keep ringing with the keyboard locked out. > > Fun and games, from very many years ago. > > --Chuck > > The keyboard on a 1052 is a keypunch keyboard I believe it is the same as the 029.  The printer in the 1052 is a keyboardless Selectric with no tab rack and they spaced via a cam on the OP shaft instead of taking a cycle.  The ones I saw on a couple 360s (22 and 25) the space cam was so worn it wobbled when it took a cycle, but the customer would never let us do anything with it as long as it worked because they could not do anything with out the console. Paul. --===============7456606654275417918==-- From doug@doughq.com Sun Jan 29 05:00:46 2023 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk archives not updating Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 15:53:14 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5233971128983396058==" --===============5233971128983396058== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This may be a pertinent message from 11 July 2022. I use Gmail, so I never delete email - It's all stored for me. Forever. ------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 01:38:36 -0400 From: Dennis Boone Subject: List migration To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org, cctech(a)classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20220711053836.B91B93FBF07(a)yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" Friends, The process of migrating the cctalk and cctech mailing lists to a new host in Chicago is underway. This evening, I've moved the list mail handling to the new server, and this message will be the first live test. Assuming this works, you shouldn't have to change anything to post to the list. The green web pages, the old "pipermail" list archives, and web access to archives of new postings from this point still require a little work, which I hope to complete in the next day or two. I will eventually import the old pipermail archives into the new posting archive, but that may take a little longer. The new hosting is provided by the Chicago Classic Computing group. Many thanks to Jay West for hosting the lists for 20 years! /Dennis Boone -----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------- Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 at 15:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jan 2023, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > > It's being run by someone else, since Jay has retired from the hosting > > business, and didn't want to keep running it. I'm not sure what else > there > > is to say. > > 1) Is Jay OK? > Was the retirement by choice? not health or circumstances? > Does he have big plans for his retirement? Such as hobbies, travelling, > or sitting on the porch chasing the kids off of the lawn? > > > 2) There should be acknowledgement of those behind the curtain, who keep > it all running for us! > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > --===============5233971128983396058==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jan 29 05:26:18 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:25:44 -0800 Message-ID: <33507432-c75b-6cd4-58a1-22b4f96b5c03@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <7ddd648f-8abc-87c5-eaa9-b8f5b3367c53@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4399926326271288266==" --===============4399926326271288266== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/28/23 20:20, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > The keyboard on a 1052 is a keypunch keyboard I believe it is the same > as the 029.  The printer in the 1052 is a keyboardless Selectric with no > tab rack and they spaced via a cam on the OP shaft instead of taking a > cycle.  The ones I saw on a couple 360s (22 and 25) the space cam was so > worn it wobbled when it took a cycle, but the customer would never let > us do anything with it as long as it worked because they could not do > anything with out the console. Was the 1052 more or less durable than the model B adapted for the 1620? With its movable carriage, it always seemed to be in danger of self-destructing--the thing would shake a bit then a carriage return was executed. --Chuck --===============4399926326271288266==-- From steven@malikoff.com Sun Jan 29 05:37:35 2023 From: steven@malikoff.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 15:37:06 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7ddd648f-8abc-87c5-eaa9-b8f5b3367c53@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5785580288370632190==" --===============5785580288370632190== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 2023-01-28 11:10 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/28/23 17:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >>> Chuck said >> >> How does your setup differ form the 1052 keyboard? I know that uses a >> modified 024 keyboard, so interposers. >> Under DOS/360, a user program could write a CCW string to ring the 1052 >> bell. If that CCW string included a TIC back to the bell-ring CCW, the >> bell would just keep ringing with the keyboard locked out. >> >> Fun and games, from very many years ago. >> >> --Chuck >> >> > The keyboard on a 1052 is a keypunch keyboard I believe it is the same > as the 029.=C2=A0 No, Chuck is correct the 1052 used a modified 024 keyboard, even through you = would think it would have been an 029. Marc recently did a video on a keypunch keyboard, the 1052 one looks much the= same. Mine differs a lot, the Spectra 70/752 used a Selectric mechanism, totally di= fferent to the keypunch keyboard. The Selectric keyboard is designed around doing a print cycle while the elect= ric keypunch keyboard seems to be power driven to reduce or eliminate double-keying errors as the primary motive. I think, but am not = certain. Sellam asked for a few photos of my 70/752 recreation project so here are som= e I just took. As I said, it's still a WIP with lots to do. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/RCA_Spectra_70-752_keyboard_recre= ation_WIP_01.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/RCA_Spectra_70-752_keyboard_recre= ation_WIP_02.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/RCA_Spectra_70-752_keyboard_recre= ation_WIP_03.jpg It's running, with the LEGO motor at the voltage indicated. The microswitch c= levis rods will be cut to the right size once the storage bar is made. Also the 3D test prints of brackets, clutch and other parts etc. in the bags.= All printed parts on the thing are white PETG. Note there is an added bit 7 bail interposer, spring return frame, clutch on = the inside of the modified right frame, RCA-style mounting brackets, storage bar pivot rod, AC motor (needs a front bearing bracket made or I migh= t just cut up the gearbox casing on it). Steve. --===============5785580288370632190==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jan 29 06:01:38 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 22:00:36 -0800 Message-ID: <8ba99188-964d-96ed-334e-ac21958c8033@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2057882666904922462==" --===============2057882666904922462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Way back in the mid 70s, I picked up a keyboard that someone told me was from a Spectrola, but it was all electronic. EBCDIC, with a big diode matrix, George Risk sealed key switches, and a few Fairchild ICs (DTL, I think, but it's been a long time.) I don't know what it went to, but it definitely wasn't IBM. It was lost in a move... --Chuck --===============2057882666904922462==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Jan 29 06:43:02 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk archives not updating Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 22:42:22 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9207657779780367409==" --===============9207657779780367409== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 9:00 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > This may be a pertinent message from 11 July 2022. > > I use Gmail, so I never delete email - It's all stored for me. Forever. > Thanks for copying that message, Doug. This was well before me re-joining, so it's nice to know the up-to-date history of the CC list. Our new (as of last July 11) benefactor is http://chiclassiccomp.org/ Thank you Chicago Classic Computing. Sellam --===============9207657779780367409==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Sun Jan 29 09:50:18 2023 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 09:49:44 +0000 Message-ID: <010d01d933c7$048517c0$0d8f4740$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3086efad5e59e72902fcafc788eb8745.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4008408023628400935==" --===============4008408023628400935== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Malikoff via cctalk > Sent: 29 January 2023 01:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: steven(a)malikoff.com > Subject: [cctalk] Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: > Typing class in high school) >=20 > Chuck said > > Speaking of keyboards, were there any computer keyboards or typewriter > > keyboards with interposer mechanisms such as used on IBM keypunches? > > I recall that was one thing that had a very different "feel" from a > > typewriter keyboard. It changed my keyboarding style. Welll whilst I didn't know this until yesterday, the IBM 2260 VDU had such a = keyboard. There is one for sale on E-Bay https://www.ebay.com/itm/115685064067 and there are nice pictures of the keyboard. Dave --===============4008408023628400935==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Sun Jan 29 11:19:38 2023 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC PDP 11/60's in need of a new home. Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 05:56:25 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1945749291.492113.1674942890123@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0185250519803597734==" --===============0185250519803597734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-28 16:54, Jerry Wright via cctalk wrote: > I have 2 of these that=C2=A0 are in need of a=C2=A0 new home.=C2=A0 These a= re quite large=C2=A0 4 racks each.=C2=A0 Although the 11/60=C2=A0is only a do= uble rack by itself. Pictures? Configuration? --===============0185250519803597734==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Sun Jan 29 18:32:28 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Mac System 7.1 or 7.5 question Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 10:31:53 -0800 Message-ID: <063F2635-79A0-426A-B9F1-CB250B49AE61@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3464240826645413503==" --===============3464240826645413503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m looking at some 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies from about 1995, so probabl= y about the time I got my first Mac. Am I correct that System 7 used A:\RESOURCE.FRK\DESKTOP as the Resource Fork = data? MacOS 12.5 doesn=E2=80=99t appear to use it. :-) A bunch of the floppies I=E2=80=99m looking at have this, including ones that= appear to be PC Backups. Zane --===============3464240826645413503==-- From g-wright@att.net Sun Jan 29 19:25:26 2023 From: Jerry Wright To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC 11/60's Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 19:24:53 +0000 Message-ID: <1645928655.609438.1675020293263@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1645928655.609438.1675020293263.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3960926678862108912==" --===============3960926678862108912== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message: 4 Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:54:50 +0000 (UTC) From: Jerry Wright Subject: [cctalk] DEC PDP 11/60's=C2=A0 in need of a new home. To: "cctalk(a)classiccmp.org" Message-ID: <1945749291.492113.1674942890123(a)mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 I have 2 of these that=C2=A0 are in need of a=C2=A0 new home.=C2=A0 These are= quite large=C2=A0 4 racks each.=C2=A0 Although the 11/60=C2=A0is only a doub= le rack by itself. Offers. Located In Kent. WA. - Jerry253-569-6041 -These are most likely sold...=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 I do have some Data=C2=A0 Generals, and HP 1000's next up. Jerry 253-569-6041 --===============3960926678862108912==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sun Jan 29 19:31:28 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mac System 7.1 or 7.5 question Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:23:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <063F2635-79A0-426A-B9F1-CB250B49AE61@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1833933363412018743==" --===============1833933363412018743== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I=E2=80=99m looking at some 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies from about 1995, so proba= bly about the time I got my first Mac. > Am I correct that System 7 used A:\RESOURCE.FRK\DESKTOP as the Resource For= k data? MacOS 12.5 doesn=E2=80=99t appear to use it. :-) > A bunch of the floppies I=E2=80=99m looking at have this, including ones th= at appear to be PC Backups. That sounds like a floppy disk written by PC Exchange. RESOURCE.FRK would contain any resource fork for any file in that folder, so at the root \RESOURCE.FRK\DESKTOP would probably have been the equivalent of the Desktop folder. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Our way is peace. -- Septimus, Son worshipper, Star Trek "Bread & Circuses" --===============1833933363412018743==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sun Jan 29 20:54:08 2023 From: Christopher Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC PDP 11/60's in need of a new home. Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 22:32:22 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1945749291.492113.1674942890123@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2454576056880747981==" --===============2454576056880747981== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow. Interested pics? Do they have rk07 s On January 28, 2023 4:54:50 PM EST, Jerry Wright via cctalk wrote: >I have 2 of these that=C2=A0 are in need of a=C2=A0 new home.=C2=A0 These ar= e quite large=C2=A0 4 racks each.=C2=A0 Although the 11/60=C2=A0is only a dou= ble rack by itself. >Offers. Located In Kent. WA. >- Jerry253-569-6041 --===============2454576056880747981==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Sun Jan 29 21:14:51 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mac System 7.1 or 7.5 question Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 13:14:19 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0559196481380362448==" --===============0559196481380362448== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 29, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> I=E2=80=99m looking at some 3.5=E2=80=9D floppies from about 1995, so prob= ably about the time I got my first Mac. >> Am I correct that System 7 used A:\RESOURCE.FRK\DESKTOP as the Resource Fo= rk data? MacOS 12.5 doesn=E2=80=99t appear to use it. :-) >> A bunch of the floppies I=E2=80=99m looking at have this, including ones t= hat appear to be PC Backups. >=20 > That sounds like a floppy disk written by PC Exchange. RESOURCE.FRK would > contain any resource fork for any file in that folder, so at the root > \RESOURCE.FRK\DESKTOP would probably have been the equivalent of the Desktop > folder. Thanks Cameron, that jogs a few old brain cells, and sounds right. Initially= I thought this had something to do with FASTBACK on MS-DOS, which made zero = sense, as I was finding them on FASTBACK backup floppies. Then I realized so= me of the floppies were just simple data floppies. I=E2=80=99m finding Google has limited knowledge of some of this stuff. Zane --===============0559196481380362448==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Sun Jan 29 23:20:17 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 3/16ths inch ink ribbon Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 17:19:27 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7551419774529272520==" --===============7551419774529272520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am looking for 3/16ths inch ink ribbon as used on the IBM 029 keypunch. I have one lightly damaged ribbon that is entirely dry. I was told by a typewriter restorationist that ribbon re-inking with nylon never works. Has anyone had much success cleaning and rewetting ink ribbons? The WD40 trick on the internet seems like it would gunk up the punch mechanism. Thanks for any information yall can provide, -Eric --===============7551419774529272520==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Jan 29 23:37:11 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3/16ths inch ink ribbon Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 15:36:30 -0800 Message-ID: <76d5d9c4-b705-f7fb-d5b0-8bba7ebd5581@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0940549471645093638==" --===============0940549471645093638== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/29/23 15:19, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > Hello, I am looking for 3/16ths inch ink ribbon as used on the IBM 029 > keypunch. >=20 > I have one lightly damaged ribbon that is entirely dry. I was told by a > typewriter restorationist that ribbon re-inking with nylon never works. >=20 > Has anyone had much success cleaning and rewetting ink ribbons? The WD40 > trick on the internet seems like it would gunk up the punch mechanism. >=20 > Thanks for any information yall can provide, https://www.aroundtheoffice.com/IBM-026-Keypunch-Ribbon/productinfo/RP-520-IB= M/ --Chuck --===============0940549471645093638==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sun Jan 29 23:48:14 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mac System 7.1 or 7.5 question Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 15:47:34 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7141943017506287773==" --===============7141943017506287773== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> That sounds like a floppy disk written by PC Exchange. RESOURCE.FRK would >> contain any resource fork for any file in that folder, so at the root >> \RESOURCE.FRK\DESKTOP would probably have been the equivalent of the Deskt= op >> folder. > Thanks Cameron, that jogs a few old brain cells, and sounds right. Initial= ly I thought this had something to do with FASTBACK on MS-DOS, which made zero sense, as I was finding them on FASTBACK backup floppies. Then I realized so= me of the floppies were just simple data floppies. > > I=E2=80=99m finding Google has limited knowledge of some of this stuff. Searching Google for anything related to the classic Mac OS has become more a= nd more useless (along with everything else Google is getting more and more useless for). All you get nowadays is little-m macOS. Sometimes I have luck searching for "System 7.x" but that won't work for Mac OS 8 and 9. :/ --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Shell scripting: the ultimate open source software. ----------------------= -- --===============7141943017506287773==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Jan 30 00:01:20 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3/16ths inch ink ribbon Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 16:00:40 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0465829704657754203==" --===============0465829704657754203== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 29 Jan 2023, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > Hello, I am looking for 3/16ths inch ink ribbon as used on the IBM 029 > keypunch. > I have one lightly damaged ribbon that is entirely dry. I was told by a > typewriter restorationist that ribbon re-inking with nylon never works. > Has anyone had much success cleaning and rewetting ink ribbons? The WD40 > trick on the internet seems like it would gunk up the punch mechanism. > Thanks for any information yall can provide, > -Eric WD40, or a very light machine oil, not even being an ink, is an emergency=20 fraantic attempt to get through the next couple of hours. And yes,=20 sometimes it will get it working briefly. It'll dissolve some of the=20 dried ink enough to make it work. Nylon ribbons are designed to go through using the same part of the ribbon=20 multiple times. Re-inking will extend that, but the cloth itself still=20 has a finite life. You can extend the ribbon's life but it ain't the same=20 as a new ribbon. Adding more ink is far preferable to just diluting the remaining dried=20 ink. But, it is only a temporary measure, until you can replace the=20 ribbon. There used to be cheap devices specificaally for re-inking ribbons. Just a motor to turn the ribbon shaft to advance it past a saturated pad=20 of ink. https://hackaday.com/2019/04/03/reinking-dot-matrix-printer-ribbons-because-i= ts-fun-okay/ https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/4591/how-to-renew-and-re-i= nk-old-printer-ribbons If you can't find printer ribbon re-inking ink, stamp pad re-inking ink=20 will do. Or even cut open magic markers. BTW, you will have a helluva mess to try to get ink off of everything. --===============0465829704657754203==-- From mooreericnyc@gmail.com Mon Jan 30 00:48:08 2023 From: Eric Moore To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 3/16ths inch ink ribbon Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 18:47:20 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <76d5d9c4-b705-f7fb-d5b0-8bba7ebd5581@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8868416514938681874==" --===============8868416514938681874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you! I will let you guys know if it works out :) On Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 5:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/29/23 15:19, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, I am looking for 3/16ths inch ink ribbon as used on the IBM 029 > > keypunch. > > > > I have one lightly damaged ribbon that is entirely dry. I was told by a > > typewriter restorationist that ribbon re-inking with nylon never works. > > > > Has anyone had much success cleaning and rewetting ink ribbons? The WD40 > > trick on the internet seems like it would gunk up the punch mechanism. > > > > Thanks for any information yall can provide, > > > https://www.aroundtheoffice.com/IBM-026-Keypunch-Ribbon/productinfo/RP-520-= IBM/ > > --Chuck > > > --===============8868416514938681874==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Mon Jan 30 02:03:37 2023 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 21:02:58 -0500 Message-ID: <99a414c6-5019-4f33-4441-6f1c4d329ceb@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <33507432-c75b-6cd4-58a1-22b4f96b5c03@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5562582686813441877==" --===============5562582686813441877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-29 12:25 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/28/23 20:20, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > >> The keyboard on a 1052 is a keypunch keyboard I believe it is the same >> as the 029.  The printer in the 1052 is a keyboardless Selectric with no >> tab rack and they spaced via a cam on the OP shaft instead of taking a >> cycle.  The ones I saw on a couple 360s (22 and 25) the space cam was so >> worn it wobbled when it took a cycle, but the customer would never let >> us do anything with it as long as it worked because they could not do >> anything with out the console. > Was the 1052 more or less durable than the model B adapted for the 1620? > With its movable carriage, it always seemed to be in danger of > self-destructing--the thing would shake a bit then a carriage return was > executed. > > --Chuck > My experience is that they where pretty durable, I never saw a lot of 1052s by the time I started in 1979 there was not a lot of 360s in our branch.  I think they did pretty good given that they are the same mechanism as the OP selectric the only thing different in the printer of the 1052 and also the early selectric terminals, was the 1052 and terminals had a capacitor start motor that was stronger than motor in the OP selectric, strong enough that if the mechanism did jam it could tear the teeth off of the motor belt.  A 1052 would hammer away pretty constantly printing out the console log, and since it did not have a tab rack, it used spaces to line up the columns on the printout, which is likely why the space clutch and cam where in such bad shape. I don't know how they would compare to a model B that was used as an I/O I never saw any systems that used one.  I would imagine that moving the heavy carriage back on something that is printing steady would be a trouble spot.  I would image that kind of use would also be hard on the power roll that drives the type hammers into the paper.  I don't image they would be very fast, a Selectric could print at 15.5 characters per second and at that speed the cycle clutch never latched it was just one continuous cycle.  Selectric I/Os that ran at full 15.5 chars/sec suffered way more problems than ones that printed at a lower speed. IBM later came out with a second Selectric I/O which had the high wear parts beefed up in them and the keyboard was separated from the printer.   All of the open transfer contacts where replaced by reed switches and magnets.  The filter shaft was driven by a clutched gear running off the OP shaft and magnets against the bails under the keyboard moved magnets to select the character code but I don't recall how it was strobed, but I seem to recall that it was another magnet that was always moved by the filter shaft but was a little behind the magnets for the character reeds.  These I/O II units where a lot more robust. Paul. --===============5562582686813441877==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Mon Jan 30 05:38:09 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PKBACK Floppies? Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 21:37:30 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7801726209329627805==" --===============7801726209329627805== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some of the floppies I=E2=80=99m recovering data look to be either a multi-pa= rt ZIP file, or something. Was this a separate product from PKZIP? I=E2=80= =99m not sure if I have a copy of PKZIP in the stuff I=E2=80=99ve recovered t= hus far. I=E2=80=99ve not pulled them into DOSBOX to try and restore them, s= o far I=E2=80=99ve just tried to use Stuffit-Expander. Part of the problem = is every file has the same name, just on different floppies. Zane --===============7801726209329627805==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Jan 30 05:56:45 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thes[e]us Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:56:10 -0600 Message-ID: <88718b6d-cfde-5bb7-460d-f73a2edc7732@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6088699086487833362==" --===============6088699086487833362== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/27/2023 8:31 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 at 21:26, Doc Shipley via cctalk > wrote: >> This Subject: line is damaging my brain. > It's such an old name, the 2nd E has worn right out of it. I mean it > is the most commonly-used letter. It was always likely to fail first. Thanks for the chuckle.  I admit I created this issue, I copied the name from the previous comment into the subject line under an assumption of correctness (probably not a defensible argument, but it's the one I'm sticking with) -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============6088699086487833362==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Mon Jan 30 05:59:34 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC 11/60's Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 17:49:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1645928655.609438.1675020293263@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0708341620080647530==" --===============0708341620080647530== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cool. My wife won't leave me. What did they go for? C On 1/29/2023 2:24 PM, Jerry Wright via cctalk wrote: > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:54:50 +0000 (UTC) > From: Jerry Wright > Subject: [cctalk] DEC PDP 11/60's=C2=A0 in need of a new home. > To: "cctalk(a)classiccmp.org" > Message-ID: <1945749291.492113.1674942890123(a)mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 >=20 > I have 2 of these that=C2=A0 are in need of a=C2=A0 new home.=C2=A0 These a= re quite large=C2=A0 4 racks each.=C2=A0 Although the 11/60=C2=A0is only a do= uble rack by itself. > Offers. Located In Kent. WA. > - Jerry253-569-6041 >=20 >=20 > -These are most likely sold... >=20 > I do have some Data=C2=A0 Generals, and HP 1000's next up. >=20 > Jerry > 253-569-6041 >=20 >=20 --===============0708341620080647530==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Jan 30 06:02:43 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 00:01:54 -0600 Message-ID: <84eb6bd0-8275-76dc-82b0-1d997a4344b4@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <53A4A4A1-7309-411D-8435-27B27C3AB9F8@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7282086595192371825==" --===============7282086595192371825== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over at the CoCo Mailing List, there's a archeological discussion about the DLOAD BASIC command in older versions of the Color Computer BASIC. It uses the serial port (and no doubt was designed for computer sharing in classrooms or similar), but the questions are around how it was designed and what inspiration is drew from. I infer MS wrote the code, and the protocol includes: P.ACK - Acknowledge - C8 hex. P.ABRT - Abort - BC hex. P.BLKR - Block request - 97 hex. P.FILR - File request - 8A hex. P.NAK - Negative Acknowledge - DE hex. Does that look like any protocol anyone has seen before? Jim --===============7282086595192371825==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 30 08:34:24 2023 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QIC tension band replacement Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 09:33:37 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7419205687557753303==" --===============7419205687557753303== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 29 Jan 2023, BogDan Vatra wrote: > Can someone recommend a place where I can buy tension bands for QIC(-150) > tapes? I known about the boiling trick, sadly I don't have any original > bands to boil ?. My boiling trick doesn't work very reliably anyways, as the belts mostly become also brittle. They do get their original length back, but sooner or later they will break. As a replacement, I have Mobilon Bands type MB-15063WA-100G for the QIC cartridges and MB-9033TA-100G for the DC100 types. Christian --===============7419205687557753303==-- From bogdan@kde.org Mon Jan 30 11:22:52 2023 From: BogDan Vatra To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QIC tension band replacement Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 13:21:40 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6329726729569686985==" --===============6329726729569686985== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Many thanks! În lun., 30 ian. 2023 la 10:34, Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> a scris: > On Sun, 29 Jan 2023, BogDan Vatra wrote: > > Can someone recommend a place where I can buy tension bands for QIC(-150) > > tapes? I known about the boiling trick, sadly I don't have any original > > bands to boil ?. > > My boiling trick doesn't work very reliably anyways, as the belts mostly > become also brittle. They do get their original length back, but sooner or > later they will break. > > As a replacement, I have Mobilon Bands type MB-15063WA-100G for the QIC > cartridges and MB-9033TA-100G for the DC100 types. > > Christian > --===============6329726729569686985==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 30 12:32:41 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 12:32:01 +0000 Message-ID: <719134005.1043661.1675081921791@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <84eb6bd0-8275-76dc-82b0-1d997a4344b4@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8142276142615576001==" --===============8142276142615576001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I cam't help you. But let me get this strait. 2 cocos connected with ... a n= ull modem cable? can send info to one another in basic? What is the correspon= ding send commamd? Or was this simply intended to accept data from a cassette= recorder? It still seems sending data coco to coco should't be too hard. On Monday, January 30, 2023, 01:02:16 AM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 Over at the CoCo Mailing List, there's a archeological discussion about=20 the DLOAD BASIC command in older versions of the Color Computer BASIC.=20 It uses the serial port (and no doubt was designed for computer sharing=20 in classrooms or similar), but the questions are around how it was=20 designed and what inspiration is drew from. I infer MS wrote the code, and the protocol includes: P.ACK - Acknowledge - C8 hex. P.ABRT - Abort - BC hex. P.BLKR - Block request - 97 hex. P.FILR - File request - 8A hex. P.NAK - Negative Acknowledge - DE hex. Does that look like any protocol anyone has seen before? Jim =20 --===============8142276142615576001==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Mon Jan 30 12:57:41 2023 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 06:57:05 -0600 Message-ID: <276367054.1782828.1675083425955@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <719134005.1043661.1675081921791@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4622882839940730446==" --===============4622882839940730446== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Monday, January 30, 2023, 01:02:16 AM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Over at the CoCo Mailing List, there's a archeological discussion about > the DLOAD BASIC command in older versions of the Color Computer BASIC. > It uses the serial port (and no doubt was designed for computer sharing > in classrooms or similar), but the questions are around how it was > designed and what inspiration is drew from. >=20 > I infer MS wrote the code, and the protocol includes: >=20 > P.ACK - Acknowledge - C8 hex. > P.ABRT - Abort - BC hex. > P.BLKR - Block request - 97 hex. > P.FILR - File request - 8A hex. > P.NAK - Negative Acknowledge - DE hex. >=20 > Does that look like any protocol anyone has seen before? >=20 > Jim According to this article: http://www.trs-80.org/network-4/ Radio Shack's Network 4 was based on Corvus Omninet. So perhaps the earlier = Color Computer commands were too? Will --===============4622882839940730446==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 30 15:01:43 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PKBACK Floppies? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 07:00:52 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0465371244011295067==" --===============0465371244011295067== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 9:37 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Some of the floppies I=E2=80=99m recovering data look to be either a multi-= part > ZIP file, or something. Was this a separate product from PKZIP? I=E2=80= =99m not > sure if I have a copy of PKZIP in the stuff I=E2=80=99ve recovered thus far= . I=E2=80=99ve > not pulled them into DOSBOX to try and restore them, so far I=E2=80=99ve ju= st tried > to use Stuffit-Expander. Part of the problem is every file has the same > name, just on different floppies. > Zane, I vaguely remember this feature of PKZIP. It's called disk spanning. https://superuser.com/questions/260067/restoring-ancient-zip-file-spanning-fl= oppy-disks-pkzipfix-equivalents Sellam > --===============0465371244011295067==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Mon Jan 30 16:06:07 2023 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PKBACK Floppies? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 10:05:17 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1413703251739706753==" --===============1413703251739706753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pkunzip would automatically prompt you to insert disk 2, etc for spanned disks. I believe a workaround was copying the files to a local directory and combining them (in dos copy zip1.zip+zip2.zip full.zip). Not sure how current archive products react to spanned disks or if it was standardized. On Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 9:01 AM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 9:37 PM Zane Healy via cctalk > > wrote: > > > Some of the floppies I=E2=80=99m recovering data look to be either a mult= i-part > > ZIP file, or something. Was this a separate product from PKZIP? Part > of the problem is every file has the same > > name, just on different floppies. > > > > I vaguely remember this feature of PKZIP. It's called disk spanning. > > > https://superuser.com/questions/260067/restoring-ancient-zip-file-spanning-= floppy-disks-pkzipfix-equivalents > > Sellam > > > > --===============1413703251739706753==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Jan 30 16:26:02 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 10:25:24 -0600 Message-ID: <30fdeae7-65ca-07e6-68f5-81a87c83f1a1@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <719134005.1043661.1675081921791@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5984580582802566382==" --===============5984580582802566382== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/30/2023 6:32 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I cam't help you. But let me get this strait. 2 cocos connected with ... = a null modem cable? can send info to one another in basic? What is the corres= ponding send commamd? Or was this simply intended to accept data from a casse= tte recorder? It still seems sending data coco to coco should't be too hard. Only DLOAD was implemented in BASIC, so two CoCos would not work.=C2=A0 As=20 such, it did not get used and was eventually removed from the BASIC in=20 the CC3. Cassette load was handled another way.=C2=A0 DLOAD specifically used the=20 serial port. And yes, sending data to CoCo is not overly difficult, they were just=20 wondering about the provenance and history of the DLOAD command in the=20 BASIC. Jim --===============5984580582802566382==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Mon Jan 30 17:15:20 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:14:35 +0000 Message-ID: <1105691163.1166596.1675098875798@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <30fdeae7-65ca-07e6-68f5-81a87c83f1a1@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5247390097942015979==" --===============5247390097942015979== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It had a dedicated cassette port? Don't most cassette ports resemble a seria= l port, or is my wonky brain making that up? What protocols did most cassette= ports use (c64/128?, IBM 5150, coco ...)? =20 --===============5247390097942015979==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jan 30 17:32:43 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QIC replacement tension band Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 09:32:02 -0800 Message-ID: <1ba3bb64-e68f-de7a-5f15-84a91d33c41c@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5368344792768845180==" --===============5368344792768845180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/29/23 22:06, BogDan Vatra wrote: > Hi, > > Do you have some links? This is what I use: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08536J6Y5 FWIW, Chuck --===============5368344792768845180==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Jan 30 17:33:51 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:33:12 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1105691163.1166596.1675098875798@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5939267063706085449==" --===============5939267063706085449== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The cassette port on the Coco used two audio tones to represent binary=20 data, 1200 HZ (1) and 2400Hz (0).=C2=A0 Each tone ran for some number of mS=20 (I can't remember what the duration of the tones was). This was so that=20 the cassettes could be duplicated on an audio tape duplicator and for=20 noise immunity. The tape hardware/software had 3 bits, 1 for reading data, one for=20 writing data and one to start and stop the tape.=C2=A0 A simple RC circuit=20 provided additional noise immunity.=C2=A0 The software had to measure the the= =20 duration of the square wave for reading and make the square wave for=20 writing. On 1/30/2023 11:14 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > It had a dedicated cassette port? Don't most cassette ports resemble a se= rial port, or is my wonky brain making that up? What protocols did most casse= tte ports use (c64/128?, IBM 5150, coco ...)? --===============5939267063706085449==-- From brain@jbrain.com Mon Jan 30 17:35:22 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:34:45 -0600 Message-ID: <0c7969c1-9262-5ccf-97d7-e74187048e66@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <1105691163.1166596.1675098875798@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2288058522323340412==" --===============2288058522323340412== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/30/2023 11:14 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > It had a dedicated cassette port? Don't most cassette ports resemble a se= rial port, or is my wonky brain making that up? What protocols did most casse= tte ports use (c64/128?, IBM 5150, coco ...)? Lots of systems had dedicated cassette ports, but yes, CoCo has a=20 dedicated cassette port, as does all the 8 bit CBM machines, I think the=20 Model 1/3/4 also, and doesn't the Apple II have one as well.=C2=A0 I am sure = I am forgetting a bunch. I think it would have been hard to have the cassette use the serial=20 port, because cassette needs audio tones, not RS232 levels. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============2288058522323340412==-- From kenton@nemersonhoover.org Mon Jan 30 18:11:25 2023 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 10:03:12 -0800 Message-ID: <093b20ba-aecc-4fd5-93f1-d78c0856a81c@Spark> In-Reply-To: <253747066.357155.1674393280887@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1254392774888792216==" --===============1254392774888792216== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think that portrayal of Xerox's view on the mouse is correct. Much of= Interlisp and all of Smalltalk was mouse-based and Interlisp was never desig= ned for (only) use by youth. Trackpads are fine except for detail work. Touchscreens are bound by touch ta= rgets needing to be finger-sized. The trackpoint works well if you never want= to take your hands off the keyboard at all. The mouse/trackball just sit in = the middle of the graph of connivence/precision. .. -- Kenton A. Hoover kenton(a)nemersonhoover.org shibumi(a)mail.marchordie.org +1 415 830 5843 On Jan 22, 2023, 05:14 -0800, Chris via cctalk , wro= te: > Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was intended = not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled people with thei= r usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, it's an= indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint where I favored tr= ackballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural and faster. Each may= excel in cwrtain applications. > > Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads superior, = make that way superior to that horrific track point used on old Thinkpads. Bu= t again that'a me. Touch screens, my hatred for them grows almost daily. They= have their place. And for portable devices they're largely the only game in = town. But I often wish I at least had the option of a mouse or something clos= e. > > Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects of= the newer tech just await refinement? --===============1254392774888792216==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Mon Jan 30 18:16:22 2023 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC PDP 11/60's in need of a new home. Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 10:15:04 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1945749291.492113.1674942890123@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4637926265342146520==" --===============4637926265342146520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry et al, I know they are gone, but was there any info on software or microcode development tools for the system(s)? THanks! Lee C. On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 1:57 PM Jerry Wright via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have 2 of these that are in need of a new home. These are quite > large 4 racks each. Although the 11/60 is only a double rack by itself. > Offers. Located In Kent. WA. > - Jerry253-569-6041 > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============4637926265342146520==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Jan 30 18:48:14 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 10:47:36 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0c7969c1-9262-5ccf-97d7-e74187048e66@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4705675093433482264==" --===============4705675093433482264== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 1/30/2023 11:14 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> It had a dedicated cassette port? Don't most cassette ports resemble a=20 >> serial port, or is my wonky brain making that up? What protocols did most = >> cassette ports use (c64/128?, IBM 5150, coco ...)? On Mon, 30 Jan 2023, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Lots of systems had dedicated cassette ports, but yes, CoCo has a dedicated= =20 > cassette port, as does all the 8 bit CBM machines, I think the Model 1/3/4 = > also, and doesn't the Apple II have one as well.=C2=A0 I am sure I am forge= tting=20 > a bunch. The 5150 had a cassette port! Diagnostics were supplied on cassette tape. It was immediately adjacent to the keyboard port, and used the same=20 5 pin DIN connector, for the added convenience of being able to plug in to=20 the wrong one. THAT mimiced the TRS80 model one, which had Power, video, and= =20 cassette in a group of three 5 pin DIN identical connectors. THAT, and the keyboards of the Jr and Coco, were to show that IBM was so=20 big that it didn't have to learn from the misteaks of others. Since the 5150 cassette connector was the same 5 pin DIN as=20 the TRS80, the source of cable for 5150 cassette was Radio Shack TRS80=20 cassette cable. There was an outfit that marketed a sorta network using the 5150 cassette=20 port, for classroom distribution, etc. Adding 160K (and/or 180K,320K,360K with DOS 1.10 and 2.00) required the=20 floppy disk controller board for about $300, DOS, and standard SA400=20 interface drives (such as borrowing from your TRS80); power connectors=20 were already built in. So, few ever used the cassette port. It was months before after-market "multi-function" boards were available,=20 so a 5150 consisted of main unit (~$1250), FDC (~$300), video board=20 (~$300), monitor (CGA had compoosite output, so could connect to cheap=20 CCTV, etc. monitors, and CGA even had a dedicated 4 pin Berg for the=20 SupRMod RF adapter), and maybe serial, and/or parallel. The 5160 no longer had the cassette port. The 5150 cassette sorta network immediately disappeared from the market. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4705675093433482264==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Jan 30 18:59:21 2023 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 13:58:25 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <093b20ba-aecc-4fd5-93f1-d78c0856a81c@Spark> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3622835992667123689==" --===============3622835992667123689== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Touchscreen with a 'real' stylus. On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 1:10 PM Kenton A. Hoover via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don't think that portrayal of Xerox's view on the mouse is correct. Much > of Interlisp and all of Smalltalk was mouse-based and Interlisp was never > designed for (only) use by youth. > > Trackpads are fine except for detail work. Touchscreens are bound by touch > targets needing to be finger-sized. The trackpoint works well if you never > want to take your hands off the keyboard at all. The mouse/trackball just > sit in the middle of the graph of connivence/precision. > > .. > > -- > Kenton A. Hoover > kenton(a)nemersonhoover.org > shibumi(a)mail.marchordie.org > +1 415 830 5843 > On Jan 22, 2023, 05:14 -0800, Chris via cctalk , > wrote: > > Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was > intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled > people with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux > fanatics, it's an indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint > where I favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural > and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications. > > > > Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads > superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on old > Thinkpads. But again that'a me. Touch screens, my hatred for them grows > almost daily. They have their place. And for portable devices they're > largely the only game in town. But I often wish I at least had the option > of a mouse or something close. > > > > Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects > of the newer tech just await refinement? > --===============3622835992667123689==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Mon Jan 30 19:05:00 2023 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:04:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1177338044239163026==" --===============1177338044239163026== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-30 1:47 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > The 5150 had a cassette port! > Diagnostics were supplied on cassette tape. > > It was immediately adjacent to the keyboard port, and used the same 5 > pin DIN connector, for the added convenience of being able to plug in > to the wrong one.  THAT mimiced the TRS80 model one, which had Power, > video, and cassette in a group of three 5 pin DIN identical connectors. > THAT, and the keyboards of the Jr and Coco, were to show that IBM was > so big that it didn't have to learn from the misteaks of others. > > Since the 5150 cassette connector was the same 5 pin DIN as the TRS80, > the source of cable for 5150 cassette was Radio Shack TRS80 cassette > cable. > > There was an outfit that marketed a sorta network using the 5150 > cassette port, for classroom distribution, etc. Snip > > The 5160 no longer had the cassette port. > The 5150 cassette sorta network immediately disappeared from the market. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com The cassette port on the 5150 could also be used as a Telecommunication Device for the Deaf (TDD) many years ago I made up a ISA bus card with the same function as the cassette port for a gentleman that wanted to move on from a 5150 but still needed the cassette port for a TDD device. Paul. --===============1177338044239163026==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Jan 30 19:13:27 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:12:48 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0004847437708022241==" --===============0004847437708022241== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The 5150 had a cassette port! >> . . . >> The 5160 no longer had the cassette port. On Mon, 30 Jan 2023, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > The cassette port on the 5150 could also be used as a Telecommunication > Device for the Deaf (TDD) many years ago I made up a ISA bus card with the > same function as the cassette port for a gentleman that wanted to move on > from a 5150 but still needed the cassette port for a TDD device. Interesting! Was that stand-alone and compatible with the ordinary TDD/TTY units? (and coupled to a modem) Or was that solely for communicating with other 5150s? Or was that to use the 5150 as a KSR terminal for a TDD/TTY handling the POT communication? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0004847437708022241==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Mon Jan 30 20:50:44 2023 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 15:50:04 -0500 Message-ID: <2720f52c-e745-a5f4-1aab-2eebc03f130b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7195671126952196411==" --===============7195671126952196411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-30 2:12 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> The 5150 had a cassette port! >>> . . . The 5160 no longer had the cassette port. > > On Mon, 30 Jan 2023, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> The cassette port on the 5150 could also be used as a >> Telecommunication Device for the Deaf (TDD) many years ago I made up >> a ISA bus card with the same function as the cassette port for a >> gentleman that wanted to move on from a 5150 but still needed the >> cassette port for a TDD device. > > Interesting! > > Was that stand-alone and compatible with the ordinary TDD/TTY units? > (and coupled to a modem) > Or was that solely for communicating with other 5150s? > > Or was that to use the 5150 as a KSR terminal for a TDD/TTY handling > the POT communication? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com I don't recall all the details but I seem to recall that the cassette interface was used to generate the modem tones and would be connected to an acoustic coupler.  I believe the software emulated a TDD/TTY but I don't recall if it was Baudot or ACSII. It would not have been a stretch to do it all in software as the rate is only 45 Baud and the tone generation for the cassette interface was done in software. Paul. --===============7195671126952196411==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Mon Jan 30 22:00:17 2023 From: paul.kimpel@digm.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 21:59:30 +0000 Message-ID: <167511597060.1586.4453558605522425490@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <99a414c6-5019-4f33-4441-6f1c4d329ceb@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6631781306586308860==" --===============6631781306586308860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Berger wrote: > On 2023-01-29 12:25 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/28/23 20:20, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > > [snip] > > believe it is the same > > as the 029.=C2=A0 The printer in the 1052 is a keyboardless Selectric wi= th no > > tab rack and they spaced via a cam on the OP shaft instead of taking a > > cycle.=C2=A0 The ones I saw on a couple 360s (22 and 25) the space cam w= as so > > worn it wobbled when it took a cycle, but the customer would never let > > us do anything with it as long as it worked because they could not do > > anything with out the console. Was the 1052 more or less durable than t= he model B > > adapted for the 1620? > > With its movable carriage, it always seemed to be in danger of > > self-destructing--the thing would shake a bit then a carriage return was > > executed. > >=20 > > --Chuck > > My experience is that they where pretty durable, I never saw a lot of=20 > 1052s by the time I started in 1979 there was not a lot of 360s in our=20 > branch. [snip] >=20 > I don't know how they would compare to a model B that was used as an I/O=20 > I never saw any systems that used one.=C2=A0 I would imagine that moving th= e=20 > heavy carriage back on something that is printing steady would be a=20 > trouble spot.=C2=A0 I would image that kind of use would also be hard on th= e=20 > power roll that drives the type hammers into the paper.=C2=A0 I don't image= =20 > they would be very fast, a Selectric could print at 15.5 characters per=20 > second and at that speed the cycle clutch never latched it was just one=20 > continuous cycle.=C2=A0 Selectric I/Os that ran at full 15.5 chars/sec=20 > suffered way more problems than ones that printed at a lower speed. The IBM Model B electric typewriter was used as a printer and keyboard entry = device on at least the Bendix G-15 (mid 1950s) and the IBM 1620 Model 1 (1959= ). On the G-15 it ran at about 8cps (timing was determined by the drum rotati= on). On the 1620-1 it ran at 10cps. And yeah, they probably took quite a beat= ing, since many sites did not have a line printer. The 1620 Model 2 (1962) used a Model 731 Selectric and drove it at 15.5cps. Paul K --===============6631781306586308860==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Jan 30 22:11:52 2023 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:11:05 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167511597060.1586.4453558605522425490@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3444583533141263341==" --===============3444583533141263341== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 1:59 PM paul.kimpel--- via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > The IBM Model B electric typewriter was used as a printer and keyboard > entry device on at least the Bendix G-15 (mid 1950s) and the IBM 1620 Model > 1 (1959). On the G-15 it ran at about 8cps (timing was determined by the > drum rotation). On the 1620-1 it ran at 10cps. And yeah, they probably took > quite a beating, since many sites did not have a line printer. > And the PDP-1. Sellam --===============3444583533141263341==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Jan 30 22:39:40 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:38:58 -0800 Message-ID: <2ce7c959-927b-33a6-6302-034ff4345093@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6823957960403497526==" --===============6823957960403497526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/30/23 14:11, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > And the PDP-1. ...and let's not forget Gog! (1954) https://i.imgur.com/j8VsH0s.png That same flick shows a Bendix cmputer https://i.imgur.com/8ezAtKr.png Don't know what model, however--awfully early for Bendix. --Chuck --===============6823957960403497526==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon Jan 30 23:40:25 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 23:39:36 +0000 Message-ID: <2076808753.965341.1675121976899@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8252533907136229988==" --===============8252533907136229988== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 12:12 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:>> The 5150 had a cassette port!>> . . .>> The 5160 no longer had t= he cassette port. On Mon, 30 Jan 2023, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:> The cassette port on the = 5150 could also be used as a Telecommunication> Device for the Deaf (TDD) man= y years ago I made up a ISA bus card with the> same function as the cassette = port for a gentleman that wanted to move on> from a 5150 but still needed the= cassette port for a TDD device. Interesting! Was that stand-alone and compatible with the ordinary TDD/TTY units?(and coup= led to a modem)Or was that solely for communicating with other 5150s? Or was that to use the 5150 as a KSR terminal for a TDD/TTY handling thePOT c= ommunication? --Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com Was this to actually communicate with the true Deftones for tdd work if so I'= d be real interested in it we have a very large collection of items that are = assistive for the deaf and hard of hearing at smecc Museum and this would qua= lify for that so yeah tell me some more thanks Ed =20 --===============8252533907136229988==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 00:00:04 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:59:14 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8670830617695550399==" --===============8670830617695550399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For reference, my notes on the CTR/CCR tape units (and its relationship to CoCo's and the 5150): https://voidstar.blog/all-about-tandy-radio-shack-computer-cassette-recorder-= trs-ccr/ (the Tandy Modem 1 from 1981 also used the cassette port, on one of the TRS-80 systems - at least per its manual) I know IBM had many NDA's when developing the 5150, and also that development was done as secretly and quickly as possible. I don't have any evidence for it, but I always assumed that IBM ended up "borrowing" the tape-cassette interface of the TRS-80, directly because of their relationship with Microsoft. Microsoft released TRSDOS Disk BASIC in 1979 - so they knew how to interface BASIC with disks. TRS-80 Model 3 release date was July 1980 CoCo release date is September 1980 I don't know exactly when the 5150 prototype started (there is an online claim about someone having "the" IBM 5150 prototype board - with a bunch of breadboard yellow wiring like they used on the 5100). There is a date on when IBM contacted Microsoft: July 21st, 1980 (Jack Sams call to Gates) -- same month as the TRS-80 Model 3 release. Then, about a week later: July 27th, 1980 is the date noted when Microsoft bought QDOS. So if Microsoft knew IBM was in a rush, and that IBM wouldn't want to R&D or consider any other new type of cassette-storage system (and there are QIC-based backup systems in early PC Magazine up to even '83 or '84 -- decent capacity, but still expensive as a standalone storage solution) -- Microsoft engineers probably suggested a design they were already familiar with. There was no serial port (on the 5150 mainboard). Maybe they used the tape system to bootstrap early BIOS or MS-DOS revisions? (the disk drive system hadn't been developed yet) OR, maybe use of the tape system was to distract anyone who might ask questions about the system (i.e. keep the system uninteresting). Did IBM also borrow aspects of the 5.25" disk drive system from the TRS-80 Model 3? Maybe not, if the ISA bus required something different for that. But to both Microsoft and IBM, "borrowing" the existing tape system from the TRS-80 seems like a logical decision (cheap, quick, and can test some stuff before the floppy disk solution was finished) - but it's just my speculation. -Steve > On Mon, 30 Jan 2023, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > Lots of systems had dedicated cassette ports, but yes, CoCo has a > dedicated > > cassette port, as does all the 8 bit CBM machines, I think the Model > 1/3/4 > > also, and doesn't the Apple II have one as well. I am sure I am > forgetting > > a bunch. > > > --===============8670830617695550399==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 31 01:02:14 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 18:01:29 -0700 Message-ID: <5e3bbaec-7f55-c9fc-3f01-e5f3e5599769@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <2720f52c-e745-a5f4-1aab-2eebc03f130b@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1114488959747633313==" --===============1114488959747633313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-01-30 1:50 p.m., Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > On 2023-01-30 2:12 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> The 5150 had a cassette port! >>>> . . . The 5160 no longer had the cassette port. >> >> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >>> The cassette port on the 5150 could also be used as a >>> Telecommunication Device for the Deaf (TDD) many years ago I made up >>> a ISA bus card with the same function as the cassette port for a >>> gentleman that wanted to move on from a 5150 but still needed the >>> cassette port for a TDD device. >> >> Interesting! >> >> Was that stand-alone and compatible with the ordinary TDD/TTY units? >> (and coupled to a modem) >> Or was that solely for communicating with other 5150s? >> >> Or was that to use the 5150 as a KSR terminal for a TDD/TTY handling >> the POT communication? >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > > I don't recall all the details but I seem to recall that the cassette > interface was used to generate the modem tones and would be connected to > an acoustic coupler.  I believe the software emulated a TDD/TTY but I > don't recall if it was Baudot or ACSII. It would not have been a stretch > to do it all in software as the rate is only 45 Baud and the tone > generation for the cassette interface was done in software. > > Paul. > RTTY software might do that. Ben. --===============1114488959747633313==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Tue Jan 31 01:22:07 2023 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 01:21:24 +0000 Message-ID: <276179949.990189.1675128084296@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5e3bbaec-7f55-c9fc-3f01-e5f3e5599769@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7769668117574668742==" --===============7769668117574668742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:01 PM, ben via cctalk wrot= e:On 2023-01-30 1:50 p.m., Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> On 2023-01-30 2:12 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:>>>> The 5150 had a c= assette port!>>>> . . . The 5160 no longer had the cassette port.>>>> On Mon,= 30 Jan 2023, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:>>> The cassette port on the 5150 = could also be used as a>>> Telecommunication Device for the Deaf (TDD) many y= ears ago I made up>>> a ISA bus card with the same function as the cassette p= ort for a>>> gentleman that wanted to move on from a 5150 but still needed th= e>>> cassette port for a TDD device.>>>> Interesting!>>>> Was that stand-alon= e and compatible with the ordinary TDD/TTY units?>> (and coupled to a modem)>= > Or was that solely for communicating with other 5150s?>>>> Or was that to u= se the 5150 as a KSR terminal for a TDD/TTY handling>> the POT communication?= >>>> -->> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com>>> I don't recall all the deta= ils but I seem to recall that the cassette> interface was used to generate th= e modem tones and would be connected to> an acoustic coupler. I believe the s= oftware emulated a TDD/TTY but I> don't recall if it was Baudot or ACSII. It = would not have been a stretch> to do it all in software as the rate is only 4= 5 Baud and the tone> generation for the cassette interface was done in softwa= re.>> Paul. >RTTY software might do that.Ben. And rtth uses different tones from tdd totally differentED# =20 --===============7769668117574668742==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 04:49:10 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 04:48:23 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0c7969c1-9262-5ccf-97d7-e74187048e66@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2036329207490960890==" --===============2036329207490960890== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 5:34 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/30/2023 11:14 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > It had a dedicated cassette port? Don't most cassette ports resemble a = serial port, or is my wonky brain making that up? What protocols did most cas= sette ports use (c64/128?, IBM 5150, coco ...)? > > Lots of systems had dedicated cassette ports, but yes, CoCo has a > dedicated cassette port, as does all the 8 bit CBM machines, I think the > Model 1/3/4 also, and doesn't the Apple II have one as well. Yes, all those have dedicated cassette ports. > I am sure > I am forgetting a bunch. ZX80, ZX81, Spectrum, Acorn Acom, Acorn Electron, BBC Micro, etc, etc. Do you count machines like the Amstrad CPC464 which had a built-in cassette recorder? > > I think it would have been hard to have the cassette use the serial > port, because cassette needs audio tones, not RS232 levels. There was an almghty kludge in the TRS-80 Modem 1. You could flip a switch and the modem serial input changed from RS232 levels to cassette levels. The modem serial output became a keyed (by the serial data) audio tone. This meant you could link it to a Model 1 cassette port and drive it with special software. It's documented in the service manual for said modem. -tony --===============2036329207490960890==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 04:54:45 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 04:53:58 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0965785384112251204==" --===============0965785384112251204== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:47 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > The 5150 had a cassette port! > Diagnostics were supplied on cassette tape. [...] > There was an outfit that marketed a sorta network using the 5150 cassette > port, for classroom distribution, etc. There was the Radio Shack Network 2 which worked like that. It was originally designed for use with TRS-80s (a master disk system used by the teacher and diskless machines used by the students). I've never heard of it being used with the 5150 but I suspect it would work. I did hear of people using the motor control relay on the 5150 (you could control it easily from Microsoft BASIC, for example) as a single-bit output to key a CW radio transmitter (morse code), etc. And I think I read of somebody who used a 5150 as a sales cash register and used the relay to release the cash drawer. -tony --===============0965785384112251204==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 10:35:31 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 04:34:39 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <84eb6bd0-8275-76dc-82b0-1d997a4344b4@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7641352345474634804==" --===============7641352345474634804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just some references: https://techheap.packetizer.com/computers/coco/unravelled_series/color-basic-= unravelled.pdf This states DLOAD is input only On page 88, I don't see DLOAD listed - it goes from CLOADM straight to EXEC (so it is not clear to me on how DLOAD is implemented) https://colorcomputerarchive.com/repo/Documents/Books/Unravelled%20Series/ext= ended-basic-unravelled.pdf "DLOAD is the most obscure command in the Color Computer and absorbs a substantial amount of space in the ROM. DLOAD is so poorly understood because Tandy has never made the necessary companion routine, DSEND. DLOAD will DOWNLOAD a file over the RS 232 line from another system, however there is no companion routine, which will transmit a file over the RS 232 line to another Color Computer. Once a DSEND routine is built and made available to the masses, DLOAD will be much better understood." In the Extended BASIC ROM, it does have a section for DLOAD (and I think a DLOADM?). Maybe inspecting that code might give some idea on its origin. Maybe DLOAD was a way to stream in a newer test ROM or other system test/support software from a "larger" machine {e.g. a mainframe with a 6809E emulator?}). http://vtda.org/docs/computing/RadioShack-Tandy/8759038-780-SL_TRS-80ModelIII= BasicQuckRef.pdf I don't see DLOAD listed for the TRS-80 Model 3 (there is an INP keyword that talks about PORT 0-255, and this manual talks about supporting two cassette ports) https://ia801906.us.archive.org/30/items/Introduction_to_TRS-80_Level_II_BASI= C_1980_Michael_Zabinski/Introduction_to_TRS-80_Level_II_BASIC_1980_Michael_Za= binski.pdf No DLOAD in the TRS-80 Level 2 BASIC (I spot checked to see if it might be under a different name, nothing stood out) https://archive.org/details/IBMBASICAV1.10Manual/page/n13/mode/2up No DLOAD in the IBM 5150 BASIC 1.10 (some suspects: LOG, LOF, GET/PUT, COMn statement, IN/OUT - maybe one this means DLOADM?). Appendix F-2 describes using BASIC to interface with the Async Serial IO Adapter, page F-8 describes using the INP keyword) Not sure if any that helps on the lineage of DLOAD. I looked at the Altair BASIC manual, didn't see any DLOAD there. And also the IBM 5110, (NOT a Microsoft BASIC) http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/5110/SA21-9308-0_IBM_5110_BASIC_Reference_Ma= nual_Jan1978.pdf Not sure if any of that helps, in terms of finding the DLOAD protocol. In the Color BASIC unravelled (first link), some of the code talked about using SPACE? As-in, something different than 8-N-1 (the SerialIO could also be used for a printer, so maybe 7-SPACE-1?). -SL On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 12:02 AM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Over at the CoCo Mailing List, there's a archeological discussion about > the DLOAD BASIC command in older versions of the Color Computer BASIC. > It uses the serial port (and no doubt was designed for computer sharing > in classrooms or similar), but the questions are around how it was > designed and what inspiration is drew from. > > I infer MS wrote the code, and the protocol includes: > > P.ACK - Acknowledge - C8 hex. > P.ABRT - Abort - BC hex. > P.BLKR - Block request - 97 hex. > P.FILR - File request - 8A hex. > P.NAK - Negative Acknowledge - DE hex. > > Does that look like any protocol anyone has seen before? > > Jim > > > --===============7641352345474634804==-- From philip@axeside.co.uk Tue Jan 31 10:57:11 2023 From: Philip Belben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 10:26:09 +0000 Message-ID: <804d4071-fb7f-5a50-5b7a-93bfb1058135@axeside.co.uk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0192179028643361579==" --===============0192179028643361579== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ZX80, ZX81, Spectrum, Acorn Acom, Acorn Electron, BBC Micro, etc, etc. > Do you count machines like the Amstrad CPC464 which had a built-in > cassette recorder? And don't forget the Commodore cassette port - used on the PET, VIC, C64, ... This blurred the line between built-in cassette drives and cassette ports, since the built-in drive on early PETs became the separate drive on later ones, plugging into the same port. This didn't just switch the motor, it powered it from the computer. Also unusual, I think, was that it didn't use a modem chip to generate tones, but bit-banged them in software. Philip. --===============0192179028643361579==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 11:30:48 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 11:30:00 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3182429246902739292==" --===============3182429246902739292== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 at 08:09, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > Chris, can you *please* correctly indent and cite messages you are > referring to? I am getting annoyed by guessing what part is from whom. Agreed. It's dead easy if you're using Gmail. I am doing it right now in the standard web client. If you use Yahoo or other Oath services, or any MS client, then point Thunderbird at it. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3182429246902739292==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 11:32:39 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 11:31:52 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <804d4071-fb7f-5a50-5b7a-93bfb1058135@axeside.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1407104598781828405==" --===============1407104598781828405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 10:56 AM Philip Belben via cctalk wrote: > > > ZX80, ZX81, Spectrum, Acorn Acom, Acorn Electron, BBC Micro, etc, etc. > > Do you count machines like the Amstrad CPC464 which had a built-in > > cassette recorder? > > And don't forget the Commodore cassette port - used on the PET, VIC, > C64, ... I think somebody else mentioned that one. > > This blurred the line between built-in cassette drives and cassette > ports, since the built-in drive on early PETs became the separate drive > on later ones, plugging into the same port. > > This didn't just switch the motor, it powered it from the computer. When I got my first PET, I didn't have the Commodore casstte recorder for it. So I designed a simple interface to link a normal cassette recorder to the PET's edge connector. I used the motor drive line to operate a relay with the contacts going to the remote socket on the cassette unit. Since the cassette recorder I was using (a Radio Shack CCR-82) had the +ve battery line going to the internal on-off switch, then to the remote socket, then to the motor, I could sense the voltage on the appropriate side of the remote socket to indicate when the 'Play' key was pressed and use that to switch a transistor connected to the PET's cassette switch pin. > > Also unusual, I think, was that it didn't use a modem chip to generate > tones, but bit-banged them in software. Almost all 8-bit home micros bit-banged the tones, and also decoded them in software. I think the BBC micro (and Electron?) was the common exception in the UK. -tony --===============1407104598781828405==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 12:05:24 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 12:04:35 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7698352834547021183==" --===============7698352834547021183== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "DLOAD is the most obscure command in the Color > Computer and absorbs a substantial amount of space in the ROM. DLOAD is so > poorly > understood because Tandy has never made the necessary companion routine, > DSEND. I wonder if it was originally intended (or even used) at the factory to download a diagnostic program into the machine for final testing, or for similar use at repair centres? The IBM5150 has a similarly obscure facility to download a diagnostic program through the keyboard port (this one is sort-of documented in the BIOS sources) -tony --===============7698352834547021183==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 31 13:15:26 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 13:14:38 +0000 Message-ID: <1069043389.1534693.1675170878433@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6934417972622881958==" --===============6934417972622881958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I take pains to clearly differentiate what I'm saying from what I'm quoting = (and usually on a phone). All the while I have to struggle readimg others mis= h mosh, often there not even being a single line separating the 2. So please = stop complaining. Learn to adapt and overcome. On Tuesday, January 31, 20= 23, 06:30:18 AM EST, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: = =20 =20 On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 at 08:09, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > Chris, can you *please* correctly indent and cite messages you are > referring to? I am getting annoyed by guessing what part is from whom. Agreed. It's=C2=A0 dead easy if you're using Gmail. I am doing it right now in the standard web client. If you use Yahoo or other Oath services, or any MS client, then point Thunderbird at it. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 =20 --===============6934417972622881958==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 17:20:10 2023 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 17:19:20 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1069043389.1534693.1675170878433@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2388613040670535835==" --===============2388613040670535835== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 at 13:14, Chris via cctalk wrot= e: > > I take pains to clearly differentiate what I'm saying from what I'm quotin= g (and usually on a phone). All the while I have to struggle readimg others m= ish mosh, often there not even being a single line separating the 2. So pleas= e stop complaining. Learn to adapt and overcome. Well, frankly: no. Get better tools, such as K9 Mail which bottom-posts fine on Android devices. Or do what I do: occasionally read mailing lists on my phone, but I don't respond from my phone unless it's an emergency. I mark-unread stuff I want to read later. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============2388613040670535835==-- From phb.hfx@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 18:05:58 2023 From: Paul Berger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 13:05:20 -0500 Message-ID: <580ed872-ee6c-f428-6364-d6a25aec4b0d@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2076808753.965341.1675121976899@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7456130213789788115==" --===============7456130213789788115== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-30 6:39 p.m., ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Hi > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 12:12 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:>> The 5150 had a cassette port!>> . . .>> The 5160 no longer had= the cassette port. > On Mon, 30 Jan 2023, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:> The cassette port on th= e 5150 could also be used as a Telecommunication> Device for the Deaf (TDD) m= any years ago I made up a ISA bus card with the> same function as the cassett= e port for a gentleman that wanted to move on> from a 5150 but still needed t= he cassette port for a TDD device. > Interesting! > Was that stand-alone and compatible with the ordinary TDD/TTY units?(and co= upled to a modem)Or was that solely for communicating with other 5150s? > Or was that to use the 5150 as a KSR terminal for a TDD/TTY handling thePOT= communication? > > --Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > > Was this to actually communicate with the true Deftones for tdd work if so = I'd be real interested in it we have a very large collection of items that ar= e assistive for the deaf and hard of hearing at smecc Museum and this would q= ualify for that so yeah tell me some more thanks Ed Unfortunately I don't recall the details, the board I made likely had a=20 8253 timer chip and probably an 8255 since that was used for the motor=20 control and also for the read data input on it and I believe the=20 software did not use BIOS at all but rather talked directly to the=20 hardware, so it was simple to modify it to use different I/O addresses.=C2=A0= =20 My involvement was just to create a replacement for the cassette=C2=A0=20 interface that was built into a 5150, I was not involved with the=20 software at all. Paul. --===============7456130213789788115==-- From david@kdbarto.org Tue Jan 31 18:12:54 2023 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Miscellaneous UCSD Pascal stuff I've found Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 10:12:16 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0369398039297078635==" --===============0369398039297078635== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is all on paper and weighs a fair bit. Located in San Diego area, so pickup would be best. I=E2=80=99m willing to ship it for 50% of the shipping cost. All classic computer related: UCSD Pascal pSystem listing from UCSD Pascal II.0 along with notes about what= BIOS failures look like. Listing of a pascal_interpreter, written in Pascal (of course) Tech Notes and Books: Tech Notes: Booting the CP/M Adaptable System on the IMS8000 SofTech MicroSystems Errata sheet for the FORTRAN Manual UCSD Pascal System Synchronous Input/Output Subsystem Implementation Guide (I= I.1, Preliminary) Date 10 April 79 SofTech MicroSystems Marketing Department memo on Version IV compatiblity wit= h Preceding Versions SofTech MicroSystems Adaptable System Tech Note (TN #2) Books: UCSD Pascal Version I.5 September 1978 UCSD Pascal Version II.0 March 1979 SofTech MicroSystems Micro News Vol I, No. 3 May 1980 SofTech MicroSystems UCSD Pascal II.0 Users Manual Feb 1980 SofTech MicroSystems UCSD Fortran User Reference Manual May 1980 Practical Pascal Programs By Greg Davidson David --===============0369398039297078635==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 18:23:20 2023 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 12:22:32 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0e11acba2dbc4d8bb1a2c75ba192b439@syssrc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8362867243296678024==" --===============8362867243296678024== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Regarding the recent GreaseWeazle story in Maryland: What do you guys think of the "archive-ness" of current solid state devices? M.2, NVMe, SSD, or even USB thumb sticks? A friend proposed that when one of those starts to go bad, any kind of partial data recovery becomes difficult - but any more difficult than the old traditional magnetic media? I noticed IBM still sells high speed large capacity tape backup. Large capacity as in gigabytes if not terabytes (think maybe a 17TB tape was offered). But for high speed, I think they are still "SATA-speeds" (300-600 MB/s)? Over the past decade or so, I've had a few SSD go bad. In fact just a few months ago, I had a main boot drive of a laptop (using an SSD) start to develop bad sectors and gradually got worse and worse performance - I mirrored it to a new SSD while the system was still bootable and that worked out. But I've never had to really do "data recovery" on any solid state device. I do recall once in awhile, "just pulling" a USB thumb drive corrupted the data - this was more in the early days of USB (maybe it's still an issue, just modern faster machines are quicker at closing files and flushing caches, so it's less probable of an issue - but I see kids at school yanking thumb drives all the time these days). So I was just curious on other peoples thoughts on that. Maybe we just haven't had enough time to really tell yet. I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives. I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or casing?) -Steve On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 3:33 PM rar via cctalk wrote: > Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney > > January 19, 2023, Hunt Valley, MD — Staff members of the System Source > Computer Museum recently completed a project that helped exonerate David > Veney, wrongly convicted of rape in 1997. In 2005, after Mr. Veney sought a > new trial, the state found irregularities in the prosecution, released Mr. > Veney from prison, and declined to re-prosecute. > > > --===============8362867243296678024==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Jan 31 18:38:00 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 10:36:13 -0800 Message-ID: <2aae643c-53e3-326e-d422-45159e91aeac@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4333383462943193313==" --===============4333383462943193313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/31/23 10:22, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Regarding the recent GreaseWeazle story in Maryland: > I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the > material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives. > I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc > (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or > casing?) Half-inch open-reel 9 track tape seems to withstand the test of time as well as anything. The problem with the high-capacity tape used for server backup will be finding drives and controllers compatible with it in years to come. I don't know how many people, for example, squirrel away LTO drives of various types, but you're not going to read that LTO-2 tape on your LTO-9 drive. Then there's the matter of finding the apppropriate controller. 8mm and DDS drives are starting to become uncommon. And we all know the fate of QIC/Travan tapes. The rule seems to be that if you want to hang onto something, keep migrating it to newer storage. --Chuck --===============4333383462943193313==-- From ethan@757.org Tue Jan 31 18:38:30 2023 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 13:37:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3631133702089273247==" --===============3631133702089273247== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What do you guys think of the "archive-ness" of current solid state > devices? M.2, NVMe, SSD, or even USB thumb sticks? A friend proposed > that when one of those starts to go bad, any kind of partial data recovery > becomes difficult - but any more difficult than the old traditional > magnetic media? I thought Flash could only hold the data in them X amount of years until the junctions discharge or whatever? It's less permanent than decent quality optical or pro magnetic media? You have to plug them in every so often to refresh I believe. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============3631133702089273247==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue Jan 31 18:47:39 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 12:47:01 -0600 Message-ID: <3a5af7ff-383a-f698-43bc-21592c22ac59@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <804d4071-fb7f-5a50-5b7a-93bfb1058135@axeside.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4685677287726328163==" --===============4685677287726328163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/31/2023 4:26 AM, Philip Belben via cctalk wrote: >> ZX80, ZX81, Spectrum, Acorn Acom, Acorn Electron, BBC Micro, etc, etc. >> Do you count machines like the Amstrad CPC464 which had a built-in >> cassette recorder? > > And don't forget the Commodore cassette port - used on the PET, VIC, > C64, ... I didn't.  It was in the email this was a reply to: On 1/30/2023 11:34 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Lots of systems had dedicated cassette ports, but yes, CoCo has a > dedicated cassette port, as does all the 8 bit CBM machines, I think > the Model 1/3/4 also, and doesn't the Apple II have one as well.  I am > sure I am forgetting a bunch. > > This blurred the line between built-in cassette drives and cassette > ports, since the built-in drive on early PETs became the separate > drive on later ones, plugging into the same port. Maybe less so than initially thought, as early PETs had 2 cassette ports, so I think that kept people from thnking the cassette drive was some "internal only" thing.  The second cassette was addressed as ,2, with the internal being ,1 > > > Also unusual, I think, was that it didn't use a modem chip to generate > tones, but bit-banged them in software. Not sure how many systems did that, but it was not a CBM exclusive. Tandy did that as well on the various 8 bit platforms it offered. > > Philip. -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============4685677287726328163==-- From brain@jbrain.com Tue Jan 31 18:54:25 2023 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 12:53:47 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0421005456273175865==" --===============0421005456273175865== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/31/2023 6:04 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> "DLOAD is the most obscure command in the Color >> Computer and absorbs a substantial amount of space in the ROM. DLOAD is so >> poorly >> understood because Tandy has never made the necessary companion routine, >> DSEND. > I wonder if it was originally intended (or even used) at the factory > to download a diagnostic program into the machine for final testing, > or for similar use at repair centres? > > The IBM5150 has a similarly obscure facility to download a diagnostic > program through the keyboard port (this one is sort-of documented in > the BIOS sources) > > -tony It's always a possibility, but a dead test cart with the code would have been a far better solution, and easier to implement, as the ROM is permanent 9so to speak) on a home machine and would have had to go through more QA. I think (I might have mentioned it at the thread start) it was part of a plan for a school network.  Tandy offered a similar setup for schools for the Model 1/3/4 systems, where the "host" could send programs, and the clients would load from the common host system. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============0421005456273175865==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 19:01:36 2023 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 19:00:45 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2381121923271351263==" --===============2381121923271351263== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 6:53 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I think (I might have mentioned it at the thread start) it was part of a > plan for a school network. Tandy offered a similar setup for schools > for the Model 1/3/4 systems, where the "host" could send programs, and > the clients would load from the common host system. IIRC there was the Network 1 which was 500 baud M1/3/4 only, and the Network 2 which was very similar but could also handle 1500 baud M3/4 and Coco (and M100?). These used the casstte ports and allowed the host machine to 'broadcast' a file (program) to all the student stations or load a file from one student station at a time back to the host. If there had been a version using DLOAD then presumably it would have been host to student stations only, so the teacher couldn't save/print/examine a student's work. There was the Network 3 which used RS232 ports on the M3 (and M4?) but which required a ROM change in the student stations I think. -tony --===============2381121923271351263==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 31 19:02:44 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Media longevity (Was: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 11:02:07 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5258757355375499744==" --===============5258757355375499744== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: ... > What do you guys think of the "archive-ness" of current solid state > devices? M.2, NVMe, SSD, or even USB thumb sticks? A friend proposed > that when one of those starts to go bad, any kind of partial data recovery > becomes difficult - but any more difficult than the old traditional > magnetic media? some thoughts, albeit no technical insights: Still a problem. With spinning rust, you can bypass some of the mechanisms involved in normal reading, in order to get at a more "raw" version of what is recorded. Such as GreaseWeazle. Thus, a corrupted sector header, or a parity error, that migh lock you out of access using "normal" means can be examined. In the case of only a few bits being bad, it can be manually repaired, albeit with considerable manual labor. > I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the > material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives. > I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc > (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or > casing?) Current media is better than the early stuff. But, it is still susceptible to degradation and/or damage. All of my DVDs are also imaged on spinning rust. (I have been told that it is legal to do so with commercial DVDs using ANYDVD, although marketing, or even creating, such a tool runs afoul of certain laws) The latest variety of optical media, "MDISC", claims extreme longevity, while maintining full compatability with being read by "legacy" systems. But, obviously real testing of such claims (rather than simulations or extrapolations from stress testing) will take time. It does look like a good step away forward in protection against degradation. Although, the higher the density (MDISC BDXL is available at 100GB on a disc), the less amenable it is to out of channel access for repair. Obviously, distributed redundancy of storage is the only practical way to protect against damage. But, that is of susbstantially less effectiveness against degradation. In the relatively early stages of degradation, it can help to recognize when degradation is occuring, simply by seeing a copy go bad as a signal to check the other copies. Multiple forms of the media, such as copying to every new form of media periodically serves to increase redundancy, and having mutilple media types reduces the possibilities of multiple copies degrading. Occasionally, the tools and knowledge to access some media are lost. News reports let us know that the sky is falling. There is a fair amount of "reinventing the wheel" done to recover content that might still be trivial for othere. Multiple forms of media is the obvious way. The Egyptioan hieroglyphics were unreadable for a while, until somebody lucked onto a multi-form document (Rosetta Stone). Much of what is known about StoneHenge is purely speculation. (although I have a trivially simple hypothesis about HOW "they managed incredible calculations" for the placement of the stones.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5258757355375499744==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Tue Jan 31 19:10:47 2023 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 12:09:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1990140741324028579==" --===============1990140741324028579== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 11:37 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > What do you guys think of the "archive-ness" of current solid state > > devices? M.2, NVMe, SSD, or even USB thumb sticks? A friend proposed > > that when one of those starts to go bad, any kind of partial data > recovery > > becomes difficult - but any more difficult than the old traditional > > magnetic media? > > I thought Flash could only hold the data in them X amount of years until > the junctions discharge or whatever? It's less permanent than decent > quality optical or pro magnetic media? > Spec is 1 or 3 years retention at end of life. At start of life it can be a decade for QLC parts or 30 years for SLC parts.... though those latter numbers aren't guaranteed. You have to plug them in every so often to refresh I believe. > Yes. And access all the used block for some firmware (some won't do proactive scans). Warner > > - Ethan > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > --===============1990140741324028579==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 31 19:40:19 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Media longevity (Was: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 19:39:37 +0000 Message-ID: <615844368.1714993.1675193977465@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7349756556589158467==" --===============7349756556589158467== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, January 31, 2023, 02:02:15 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Much of what is known about StoneHenge is purely speculation. (although I have a trivially simple hypothesis about HOW "they managed incredible calculations" for the placement of the stones.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com C: I'm all ears. I myself had arrived at a plausible explanation for crop circles. Apart from = creation by humans or any other species. I was told "they" were proven to be = fraudulent though. I don't know. =20 --===============7349756556589158467==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 31 20:27:47 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] OT: Ancient Astronomers Was: Media longevity (Was: Computer Museum Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 12:27:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <615844368.1714993.1675193977465@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7245840297910198936==" --===============7245840297910198936== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Much of what is known about StoneHenge is purely speculation. (although I > have a trivially simple hypothesis about HOW "they managed incredible > calculations" for the placement of the stones.) On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > C: I'm all ears. > I myself had arrived at a plausible explanation for crop circles. Apart > from creation by humans or any other species. I was told "they" were > proven to be fraudulent though. I don't know. OK I stick a stick in the ground, to mark the direction that the sun sets. (I now use a notch in the top of my fence) But, eventually, it's not lined up with sunset any more. It has moved! So, I stick a new stick in. But, it happens again. I end up with lots of sticks. Moving along. Eventually, it stops moving in that direction, and starts back the other way! I have a row of sticks. I pull out some, but leave the end-points, because those are the extremes of the directions. Belafon (a Druid computer consultant (Terry Pratchett)) has a great deal on some vintage used rocks. So, I buy a few, and have him put them where my sticks are. Not sure yet how he moves them. Maybe by spinning them around in a crop circle first? Similarly sticks and rocks for phases of the moon. But, the full cycle isn't an integer. Sometimes it's 29 days, sometimes 30. So. I make one circle of 29 rocks, and another of 30. Hmmm. why did I have another circle of 56? Inventing Sundial I notice that one star ("Polaris") stays still, while the others move. I stick a stick in the ground, pointing at it. During the day, I notice that its shadow is in different places, and When lunch arrives, I notice where the shadow is. MAYBE I get the idea that I could use that. The next day, when the shadow is at the pebble, I am ready for lunch on time. For other times of day, I don't calculate positions, with multiple sine waves, and using Anna's lemon tree, etc. I watch the time on my cellphone, and at 5:00, I put a pebble where the shadow is. Eventually, I notice that it is inaccurate at other times of the year, so I have one set of pebbles for winter solstice, one for summer solstice, and some in between, such as the equinox. And THAT is how you can become a "brilliant, obviously great at math, ancient astronomer" without having a clue. I try archery. I can't hit the side of a barn. But, one day, I finally hit the barn! I'm so proud of that, that I leave the arrow in and draw concentric circles around it to highlight where it is. My neighbor says, "Did you really shoot that arrow?" "Sure did" "Wow! You hit the exact center of the circles!" And, that is how you get a reputation as a great marksman. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7245840297910198936==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 31 20:38:06 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Ancient Astronomers Was: Media longevity (Was: Computer Museum Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 12:37:28 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0472539011557050759==" --===============0472539011557050759== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit addendum: The solstice sticks are not due to observation and planning. Just needed a little shade when watching the sunset from my hammock. Building anothe sundial. I found some garden gnome, and one with a pointy head that can cast a shadow. But, he's kinda Jamaican. So, I make a sign that says, "Gnomes?? No mon, We're gnomen" --===============0472539011557050759==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 31 20:52:15 2023 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Media longevity (Was: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 13:51:37 -0700 Message-ID: <8a3e6d04-a746-cbf0-2274-a59f6e0f7209@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <615844368.1714993.1675193977465@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4755800447903463855==" --===============4755800447903463855== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-01-31 12:39 p.m., Chris via cctalk wrote: > On Tuesday, January 31, 2023, 02:02:15 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Much of what is known about StoneHenge is purely speculation. (although I > have a trivially simple hypothesis about HOW "they managed incredible > calculations" for the placement of the stones.) >=20 the chief, put that stone there. The druid, put that stone here. The Workers, "OK,Lunch Break", the stone stays where it is. Stonehenge Decoded, (1964) answered all my questions. Just like the Pyramids, all talk and no work. Nova (PBS) explored both, and we now have New but very tiny Pyramid, and Stonehenge a new stone. Ben. --===============4755800447903463855==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Tue Jan 31 21:27:36 2023 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 13:26:57 -0800 Message-ID: <6b455f11-c0dd-7516-2195-6567ac4d38ec@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3306639621927176664==" --===============3306639621927176664== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> I think (I might have mentioned it at the thread start) it was part of a >> plan for a school network. Tandy offered a similar setup for schools >> for the Model 1/3/4 systems, where the "host" could send programs, and >> the clients would load from the common host system. > IIRC there was the Network 1 which was 500 baud M1/3/4 only, and the > Network 2 which was very similar but could also handle 1500 baud M3/4 > and Coco (and M100?). These used the casstte ports and allowed the > host machine to 'broadcast' a file (program) to all the student > stations or load a file from one student station at a time back to the > host. I worked with an elementary school teacher who used exactly such a system to ship software from a CoCo 3 with a floppy drive to diskless CoCo 2s. You turn= ed the dial to each client in turn and ran CLOAD on the client, and it pulled it over the cassette port. No automatic push, but I think he had only around 15 computers or so, so it didn't take long to load software. My math fractions trainer I wrote in CoCo BASIC was in use there for a number of years. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Birth, n.: The first and direst of all disasters. -- Ambrose Bierce ------= -- --===============3306639621927176664==-- From david@kdbarto.org Tue Jan 31 21:29:01 2023 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Miscellaneous UCSD Pascal stuff I've found Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 13:28:23 -0800 Message-ID: <50B86498-73B0-4FD2-868B-7AA4BE8BBE06@kdbarto.org> In-Reply-To: <9822f38b-883c-4d16-af7a-4eca3f63a9ac@email.android.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0524580228600091617==" --===============0524580228600091617== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These items have all been claimed. David > On Jan 31, 2023, at 12:57 PM, grif615(a)mindspring.com wrote: >=20 > Does the post office still have a book rate? >=20 > On Jan 31, 2023 10:12, David Barto via cctalk wro= te: > This is all on paper and weighs a fair bit. > Located in San Diego area, so pickup would be best. > I=E2=80=99m willing to ship it for 50% of the shipping cost. >=20 > All classic computer related: >=20 > UCSD Pascal pSystem listing from UCSD Pascal II.0 along with notes about wh= at BIOS failures look like. > Listing of a pascal_interpreter, written in Pascal (of course) >=20 > Tech Notes and Books: >=20 > Tech Notes: > Booting the CP/M Adaptable System on the IMS8000 > SofTech MicroSystems Errata sheet for the FORTRAN Manual > UCSD Pascal System Synchronous Input/Output Subsystem Implementation Guide = (II.1, Preliminary) Date 10 April 79 > SofTech MicroSystems Marketing Department memo on Version IV compatiblity w= ith Preceding Versions > SofTech MicroSystems Adaptable System Tech Note (TN #2) >=20 > Books: > UCSD Pascal Version I.5 September 1978 > UCSD Pascal Version II.0 March 1979 > SofTech MicroSystems Micro News Vol I, No. 3 May 1980 > SofTech MicroSystems UCSD Pascal II.0 Users Manual Feb 1980 > SofTech MicroSystems UCSD Fortran User Reference Manual May 1980 > Practical Pascal Programs By Greg Davidson >=20 > David >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============0524580228600091617==-- From david@gloveraoki.net Tue Jan 31 21:36:33 2023 From: David Glover-Aoki To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PKBACK Floppies? Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 13:26:46 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1244210627866924211==" --===============1244210627866924211== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 29, 2023, at 9:37 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Some of the floppies I=E2=80=99m recovering data look to be either a multi-= part ZIP file, or something. Was this a separate product from PKZIP? I=E2= =80=99m not sure if I have a copy of PKZIP in the stuff I=E2=80=99ve recovere= d thus far. I=E2=80=99ve not pulled them into DOSBOX to try and restore them= , so far I=E2=80=99ve just tried to use Stuffit-Expander. Part of the probl= em is every file has the same name, just on different floppies. Info-ZIP still supports "split" archives, and spanned archives can be convert= ed to split archives by renaming them to the appropriate extension. From the = man page: zip version 3.0 and later can create split archives. A split archive is a st= andard zip archive split over multiple files. (Note that split archives are = not just archives split in to pieces, as the offsets of entries are now based= on the start of each split. Concatenating the pieces together will invalida= te these offsets, but unzip can usually deal with it. zip will usually refus= e to process such a spliced archive unless the -FF fix option is used to fix = the offsets.) One use of split archives is storing a large archive on multiple removable me= dia. For a split archive with 20 split files the files are typically named (= replace ARCHIVE with the name of your archive) ARCHIVE.z01, ARCHIVE.z02, ...,= ARCHIVE.z19, ARCHIVE.zip. Note that the last file is the .zip file. In cont= rast, spanned archives are the original multi-disk archive generally requirin= g floppy disks and using volume labels to store disk numbers. zip supports s= plit archives but not spanned archives, though a procedure exists for convert= ing split archives of the right size to spanned archives. The reverse is als= o true, where each file of a spanned archive can be copied in order to files = with the above names to create a split archive. A split archive with missing split files can be fixed using -F if you have th= e last split of the archive (the .zip file). If this file is missing, you mu= st use -FF to fix the archive, which will prompt you for the splits you have. David. --===============1244210627866924211==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 31 21:49:44 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Framework vs. Symphony Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 21:49:05 +0000 Message-ID: <940767342.1771210.1675201745901@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <940767342.1771210.1675201745901.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5409360905821318237==" --===============5409360905821318237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've used neither. I have FWII here. Going to attempt to read the floppies (i= t was sealed when I got my hands on it). Which do you prefer. --===============5409360905821318237==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Tue Jan 31 22:04:28 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:03:48 -0800 Message-ID: <9040C824-78F1-499D-96B6-BE21AEA76734@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1019059518989659952==" --===============1019059518989659952== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:22 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the > material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives. > I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc > (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or > casing?) Choosing the right blanks made a world of difference. The as I said recently= , all the Verbatim DataLifePlus I=E2=80=99ve tried to recovered have been fin= e. The main data I lost was stored on a DVD-R blank from another manufacture= r. I=E2=80=99m now looking at switching to Verbatim M-Disc=E2=80=99s. As part of my recent efforts I=E2=80=99ve regained access to data that while = live on spinning disk, had become corrupted sometime between 1997 and 1999. Zane --===============1019059518989659952==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Tue Jan 31 22:18:07 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:17:27 -0800 Message-ID: <4B1ABC92-CA37-4811-AB61-04E1D4987626@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <2aae643c-53e3-326e-d422-45159e91aeac@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6585126659874281764==" --===============6585126659874281764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:36 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Half-inch open-reel 9 track tape seems to withstand the test of time as > well as anything. >=20 > The problem with the high-capacity tape used for server backup will be > finding drives and controllers compatible with it in years to come. I > don't know how many people, for example, squirrel away LTO drives of > various types, but you're not going to read that LTO-2 tape on your > LTO-9 drive. Then there's the matter of finding the apppropriate > controller. >=20 > 8mm and DDS drives are starting to become uncommon. And we all know the > fate of QIC/Travan tapes. >=20 > The rule seems to be that if you want to hang onto something, keep > migrating it to newer storage. >=20 > --Chuck When using tape as an archive medium, you must include a plan for refreshing = those tapes. When creating an archive solution, it=E2=80=99s important that = the refresh of the media is an automated process that doesn=E2=80=99t require= headcount. Having a system in place for tracking where all your archive media is, and wh= at it is, is equally important. Case in point, I=E2=80=99ve spent the last 3= weekends trying to find some boxes of floppies. I found =E2=80=9Cthem=E2=80= =9D on Sunday, only to find that they are apparently no longer in one of the = boxes, and that box must be one of the others I=E2=80=99ve found, and it=E2= =80=99s been reused. Zane --===============6585126659874281764==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jan 31 22:20:12 2023 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 17:19:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9040C824-78F1-499D-96B6-BE21AEA76734@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0345591531355991246==" --===============0345591531355991246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 31, 2023, at 5:03 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:22 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the >> material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives. >> I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc >> (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or >> casing?) >=20 > Choosing the right blanks made a world of difference. The as I said recent= ly, all the Verbatim DataLifePlus I=E2=80=99ve tried to recovered have been f= ine. The main data I lost was stored on a DVD-R blank from another manufactu= rer. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m now looking at switching to Verbatim M-Disc=E2=80=99s. >=20 > As part of my recent efforts I=E2=80=99ve regained access to data that whil= e live on spinning disk, had become corrupted sometime between 1997 and 1999. >=20 > Zane I don't remember if RW (erasable) DVDs exist, or if that is only offered for = CD blanks. As I understand it, the RW technology has nowhere the longevity o= f the write-once kind. Makes sense since those are reversible, which suggest= s that the reversing might happen gradually in storage, similar to the way th= at NVRAM (flash memory) gradually fades which OTP ROMs tend to last forever u= nless they have a process defect. paul --===============0345591531355991246==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Tue Jan 31 22:29:35 2023 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:28:55 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8481669878833366892==" --===============8481669878833366892== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 31, 2023, at 2:19 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Jan 31, 2023, at 5:03 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:22 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the >>> material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives. >>> I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD di= sc >>> (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or >>> casing?) >>=20 >> Choosing the right blanks made a world of difference. The as I said recen= tly, all the Verbatim DataLifePlus I=E2=80=99ve tried to recovered have been = fine. The main data I lost was stored on a DVD-R blank from another manufact= urer. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m now looking at switching to Verbatim M-Disc=E2=80=99s. >>=20 >> As part of my recent efforts I=E2=80=99ve regained access to data that whi= le live on spinning disk, had become corrupted sometime between 1997 and 1999. >>=20 >> Zane >=20 > I don't remember if RW (erasable) DVDs exist, or if that is only offered fo= r CD blanks. As I understand it, the RW technology has nowhere the longevity= of the write-once kind. Makes sense since those are reversible, which sugge= sts that the reversing might happen gradually in storage, similar to the way = that NVRAM (flash memory) gradually fades which OTP ROMs tend to last forever= unless they have a process defect. >=20 > Paul I was quite frankly amazed that I was able to recover data from Memorex CD-RW= disks. I don=E2=80=99t remember if I=E2=80=99ve run across any DVD-RW disks in my ef= forts (they do exist). Zane --===============8481669878833366892==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 31 23:21:52 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] windows reports contents of previous floppy Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 23:21:12 +0000 Message-ID: <292956343.1799197.1675207272744@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <292956343.1799197.1675207272744.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3562951223506690766==" --===============3562951223506690766== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable why does this happen? how do I "reset" a floppy drive (in windows) so that it= tells me what's on the current disk, not what was on the previous disk that'= s been removed. --===============3562951223506690766==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Jan 31 23:29:27 2023 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:28:49 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <292956343.1799197.1675207272744@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6213087989624798136==" --===============6213087989624798136== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > why does this happen? how do I "reset" a floppy drive (in windows) so > that it tells me what's on the current disk, not what was on the > previous disk that's been removed. WHICH version of Windoze? What specific kinds, sizes, brands, and models, of drives? Some drives have a "disk changed" signal; some have "Drive Ready" In CP/M, whenever you changed disks, you were 'sposed to press Ctrl-C to tell the OS that you had done so, so that it knew not to believe the buffer contents. That was still implemented in early versions of MS/PC-DOS. --===============6213087989624798136==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 23:39:37 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2023 07:38:50 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <292956343.1799197.1675207272744@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3914438054369327954==" --===============3914438054369327954== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is not the forum to ask MS Windows questions. On Wed, 1 Feb 2023, 7:21 am Chris via cctalk, wrote: > why does this happen? how do I "reset" a floppy drive (in windows) so that > it tells me what's on the current disk, not what was on the previous disk > that's been removed. > --===============3914438054369327954==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 31 23:50:44 2023 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:50:05 -0800 Message-ID: <010301d935ce$bf157590$3d4060b0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0895839023082313712==" --===============0895839023082313712== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > (~$300), monitor (CGA had compoosite output, so could connect to cheap > CCTV, etc. monitors, and CGA even had a dedicated 4 pin Berg for the > SupRMod RF adapter), and maybe serial, and/or parallel. Fred, This is the first time I am hearing about this. I always thought the connecto= r was for light pen input. -Ali --===============0895839023082313712==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Tue Jan 31 23:53:30 2023 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:52:34 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3665773937579023844==" --===============3665773937579023844== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 3:39 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > This is not the forum to ask MS Windows questions. > Chris. Can I ask you stop and consider if you really need to post/reply. Not every thought that enters ones head needs to be translated into a list posting It feels like a stream of consciousness sometimes. --===============3665773937579023844==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Tue Jan 31 23:53:59 2023 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2023 07:52:45 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <292956343.1799197.1675207272744@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0725540198838612141==" --===============0725540198838612141== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try support(a)microsoft.com On Wed, 1 Feb 2023, 7:21 am Chris via cctalk, wrote: > why does this happen? how do I "reset" a floppy drive (in windows) so that > it tells me what's on the current disk, not what was on the previous disk > that's been removed. > --===============0725540198838612141==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Jan 31 23:59:49 2023 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 23:59:07 +0000 Message-ID: <655533581.1821002.1675209547903@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8945225971295989004==" --===============8945225971295989004== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 On Tuesday, January 31, 2023, 06:28:55 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: > why does this happen? how do I "reset" a floppy drive (in windows) so > that it tells me what's on the current disk, not what was on the > previous disk that's been removed. WHICH version of Windoze? What specific kinds, sizes, brands, and models, of drives? Some drives have a "disk changed" signal; some have "Drive Ready" In CP/M, whenever you changed disks, you were 'sposed to press Ctrl-C to tell the OS that you had done so, so that it knew not to believe the buffer contents. That was still implemented in early versions of MS/PC-DOS. C: so some of my measages are getting to the list. thia is hratifying. Win2K Advanced Server. Generic Athlon XP 2600+ box. Happena with 2 very different drives. I habe other srives, but this is a wind= ows issue. I can feel it in my bones. =20 --===============8945225971295989004==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:26 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: any COCO enthusiasts Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 13:21:04 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6ffdd864-475c-96ec-7705-9f912e58026b@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8034979004271167535==" --===============8034979004271167535== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/23/2023 12:11 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 1/23/2023 11:53 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> The 6883 SAM was the "glue" that provided all of the timing and >> address decoding for the entire system.  To reduce flicker the 6847 >> and 6809E memory accesses were alternate cycled.  This means that >> they used opposite edges of the Phase 1 clock  to access memory. >> However, this meant running the system at .8949 MHz.  The SAM had the >> ability to run the CPU at twice that speed but this resulted in the >> video being disabled. > Are you sure about that?  The system could be sped up, which involved > not refreshing DRAM, but all of the support ICs and the DRAMs are > 1MHz, so I don't think 2MHz was possible on the CoCo, at least. I don't recall if that was the CoCo 2 or CoCo 3 but the system could handle 1.8MHz (with a MC68B08E CPU).  The memory had to be 2MHz to handle the alternate cycling. The straight MC6809 (non E version) used a more forgiving quadrature clock but could not be alternate cycled. >> >> >> There are many programs and peripherals available for the Color >> Computer.  The floppy disk system used 5 1/4" diskettes and could run >> operating systems like Flex, Star DOS and OS/9 Level 1.  I don't >> recall if OS/9 Level II was ported to the Color Computer. > > Yes, it was, but only for the CC3, which had an MMU (don't shoot the > messenger, that's what Radio Shack called it) and 128kB of DRAM, with > an option to expand to 512kB. Thank you for clearing up the CoCo 3, I never had one.  I know the MC6887 could address and handle the refresh for 96K. > > The source has been open sourced and extended as "NitrOS9", and > there's a current "Ease of Use" edition that can be loaded from a > CoCoSDC and also has 6309 extensions for faster operation. OS9 Level II was designed by Motorola and Microware and made full use of the capabilities of the 6809 architecture.  With simple Dynamic Address Translation 1MB of extended address space was available. I used to run OS9 Level II on a Gimix 6809 system and then on a Hazelwood 6809 System.  Running on Dual 5 1/4" floppies, Dual 8" floppies, a 5 1/4" hard disk drive and a syquest removable 5 1/4" drive. I wrote the OS/9 Level II drivers for the Gimix DMA Floppy Disk Controller back in the 1980/1981 time frame. It's too bad but those systems are long gone and now I play with my PDP-8 😁. > >> >> I believe there was even some kind of hard disk drive interface >> available, though not from Tandy IIRC. > GlensideIDE, sold in the day by the still active Glenside Color > Computer Club (GCCC) in Chicago, IL. Also, Cloud9's SuperIDE was also > sold.  There was a "Burke and Burke" HDD interface that consisted of > an adapter, an ISA MFM card (as I recall), and an MFM drive >> >> >> Please just google Tandy Color Computer. > > Yep. > > THere's a half dozen FB group, a Discord Channel, and a mailing list. > > Jim > --===============8034979004271167535==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:26 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 68k textbooks Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 13:52:15 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1261179071.22620.1674761103884@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9078192956308725753==" --===============9078192956308725753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John F. Wakerly's book "Microprocessor Architecture and Programming"=20 comes to mind. My first machine language programming book was DEC's "Introduction to=20 Programming" for the PDP-8. I used Motorola's "MC6809-MC6809E Microprocessor Programming Manual"=20 heavily in the early 80's Also, Motorola's "Programmer's Reference Manual" for the 68000 was a=20 desk reference for me. Joseph Yiu's "The Definitive Guide" books for the Arm Architecture is a=20 reference I still use. Anyway that's my 2 cents worth. Call me old fashioned but I have real bound books of all of those.=F0=9F=98=82 On 1/26/2023 1:25 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I have a few scanned somewhere. I always kimd of liked Douglas Halls Microp= rocessors and Interfacing: Programming and Hardware for 80x86. It's a large f= ormat textbook. There is a 68000 version which I don't have. Curious what tex= tbooks other can recommend. > > As I said I scanned at least 2, maybe 3 some time ago. The Antonakos book s= eemed to stand out. > > https://www.amazon.com/68000-Microprocessor-Hardware-Principles-Application= s/dp/0136681204 --===============9078192956308725753==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:26 2023 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:38:56 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4C88@mail.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6244649616761026942==" --===============6244649616761026942== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I took typing in summer school before high school freshman. After 2 weeks I w= as at 20 WPM. At the end of the semester, I was at 20 WPM. =F0=9F=99=81 I have since resorted to index and thumb on both hands. Dwight ________________________________ From: Rick Bensene via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 11:41 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Rick Bensene Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school >> >> And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school. >> > > I had typing as an elective class in 7th grade in 1984. It gave me the > ability to type in programs faster. > I took typing class in High School all four years. Because I had developed an interest in typing when I was much younger, one of= my relatives had given me an old Royal typewriter when I was something like = 6 years old. I was proficient with the alphabet and had a pretty good vocabulary for my ag= e, so I started to use the typewriter to write out my ideas for various inven= tions that I thought up(most of which were completely impossible, but I actua= lly did make some of them). Of course, I typed in a way that was my own creation. It was at first hunt= and peck, and evolved as I got more familiar with the layout of the keyboard= into my own version of touch typing. I started using a Teletype 33ASR in sixth grade for learning programming on t= he HP 2000C timeshared BASIC system that the county school system owned, and = the familiarity with a typewriter keyboard meant that I got pretty good at ty= ping on the Teletype - being able to type on it about as fast as the mechanis= m would allow. Since the vocabulary for typing in BASIC programs was fairly limited, my fing= ers got muscle memory on the various keywords and I could rip them out such t= hat the interlock on the keyboard held back the pressure of the finger to typ= e the next character in a keyword that when the mechanism finished printing, = that key would immediately be depressed. About the only place I slowed down a= little was typing literal text in PRINT statements, math expressions, and pr= int formats in IMAGE statements. By the time I got to the High School typing class, I could easily type 70-80 = WPM with very low error rates for extended periods of time, and could burst u= p to 110WPM. But, I typed in a way that was completely incorrect as far as t= he formal way of typing goes. After the first few weeks of class, it became apparent to the instructor that= I could type quite well, as well as quite quickly, but I did it all wrong. = I was the second fastest typist in the class (there was a girl in the class = who was faster), but I had the lowest error rate in sustained high-speed typi= ng. The teacher was a great guy. He was constantly on me to type the right way = out of due diligence, but didn't press it, and I'd constantly ignore him. He would stand over me and watch me type, and would shake his head in both di= sgust, and in marvel that I could type as fast as I did using a completely bi= zarre method. He often told me that it was a wonder that I didn't tie my fin= gers into knots typing the way that I did. When it came time to grade my performance in the class, he was torn. He told= me that he wanted to give me a failing grade because I did not learn the pro= per way to type, but at the same time because I could type all of the materia= l very accurately and quickly, he could not help but give me an A because I p= erformed better than the vast majority of the students in the class despite t= he bizarre way that I typed. I still use this strange way of typing to this day (many decades later), and = can still type pretty darned fast, although my error rate has crept up quite = a bit due to arthritis in my fingers, as well as general neurological degrada= tion due to age. It works for me, and in the end, I got all As in typing cla= ss for all four years. I took the class after my Freshman year even though i= t was no longer required (it was required for all students to pass at least o= ne year of typing in order to graduate, which was quite forward-thinking for = those days) because I really liked the teacher, and the practice was good for= keeping my speed up and error rate down, which proved very helpful for writi= ng papers later on in High School, as well as in my computer programming clas= ses and work after I graduated. It's always interesting to study the unusual methods that get used when peopl= e (especially young people) come up with their own ways of doing things out o= f interest or necessity versus what is the traditionally-trained way. I think in a lot of cases as people get into the school systems, their unique= ways of doing things get trained out of them, even though their unique metho= ds had evolved into a superior means of accomplishing something. I had a great deal of respect for this typing teacher for realizing that my u= nique way of typing worked very well for me, didn't affect the results of wha= t was required, and thus left me alone and didn't try to force the "correct" = way on me. It is unfortunate that the insight that this teacher had is not more common i= n the educational realm. RIP Al Yanzic! -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon --===============6244649616761026942==-- From bogdan@kde.org Mon Feb 13 08:46:26 2023 From: BogDan Vatra To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] QIC tension band replacement Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 14:00:09 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4189874588336383341==" --===============4189874588336383341== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Can someone recommend a place where I can buy tension bands for QIC(-150) tapes? I known about the boiling trick, sadly I don't have any original bands to boil 😁. Thanks. Regards, BogDan. P.s. I found on Amazon a few alternatives, but they are quite thick (1.5mm) while the original ones are much thiner. --===============4189874588336383341==-- From taipanromania@gmail.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:26 2023 From: BogDan Vatra To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] QIC replacement tension band Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 08:47:18 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0604523823681986489==" --===============0604523823681986489== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Can someone recommend a place where I can buy replacement tension band for QIC(-150) tapes? I known about the boiling trick, sadly I don't have any original bands to boil 😁. Thanks. Regards, BogDan. P.s. I found on Amazon a few alternatives, but they are quite thick (1.5mm) while the original ones are much thiner. --===============0604523823681986489==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:26 2023 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QIC replacement tension band Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 13:37:03 -0800 Message-ID: <46b694d1-4035-313b-ffe8-212a85e9e76e@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1855918620689967952==" --===============1855918620689967952== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/28/23 22:47, BogDan Vatra via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > Can someone recommend a place where I can buy replacement tension band for > QIC(-150) tapes? I known about the boiling trick, sadly I don't have any > original bands to boil 😁. The ones from Amazon that Al and I suggested are thicker, but they work just fine on DC-300 sized QIC cartridges. I've even used them on Magnus SLR carts. --Chuck --===============1855918620689967952==-- From bogdan@kde.org Mon Feb 13 08:46:26 2023 From: BogDan Vatra To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: QIC replacement tension band Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 08:06:35 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <46b694d1-4035-313b-ffe8-212a85e9e76e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4139934130444629042==" --===============4139934130444629042== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Do you have some links? I bought https://amzn.eu/d/8CJdyXB and https://amzn.eu/d/j279BI4 but I have the feeling that they are not what I need 😒. BogDan. dum., 29 ian. 2023, 23:55 Chuck Guzis via cctalk a scris: > On 1/28/23 22:47, BogDan Vatra via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Can someone recommend a place where I can buy replacement tension band > for > > QIC(-150) tapes? I known about the boiling trick, sadly I don't have any > > original bands to boil 😁. > > The ones from Amazon that Al and I suggested are thicker, but they work > just fine on DC-300 sized QIC cartridges. I've even used them on Magnus > SLR carts. > > --Chuck > > > --===============4139934130444629042==--