From cclist@sydex.com Thu Dec 1 00:43:31 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 16:43:08 -0800 Message-ID: <06f09a70-48fe-458e-8c63-7c0077f59c5a@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0676590524829423903==" --===============0676590524829423903== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11/30/22 14:45, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > I have a kennedy 9100 with an unformatted pertec interface that I would > love to use for imaging tapes from my AS/400 > > It seems like strapping a logic analyzer to the read connector, and an > arduino on the command connector, may be fairly easily done? Has anyone > done that? I have to confess that I've never understood the Arduino thing. It seems to be limiting the functionality of an MCU in the name of convenience. An inexpensive STM32F4 or F7 MCU can have, depending on the package, over 100 5V tolerant GPIOs, lots of DMA channels, 15 timers, USB support, and even handle ethernet. It's just a matter of programming. F4 MCU dev boards are cheap. Maybe it's the 1000+ page reference manual that has people spooked? Or perhaps there's a revulsion for ARM MCUs.... Forgive me, I'm feeling a bit testy today... --Chuck --===============0676590524829423903==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Dec 1 00:55:27 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 19:55:06 -0500 Message-ID: <6FCD11EE-5932-4A8C-B58E-04BB16F13A60@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <06f09a70-48fe-458e-8c63-7c0077f59c5a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6642448932809312125==" --===============6642448932809312125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Nov 30, 2022, at 7:43 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 11/30/22 14:45, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: >> I have a kennedy 9100 with an unformatted pertec interface that I would >> love to use for imaging tapes from my AS/400 >>=20 >> It seems like strapping a logic analyzer to the read connector, and an >> arduino on the command connector, may be fairly easily done? Has anyone >> done that? >=20 > I have to confess that I've never understood the Arduino thing. It > seems to be limiting the functionality of an MCU in the name of convenience. Arduinos are widely used, exist in a bunch of variations and sizes, are very = cheap, come with a decent development environment... > An inexpensive STM32F4 or F7 MCU can have, depending on the package, > over 100 5V tolerant GPIOs, lots of DMA channels, 15 timers, USB > support, and even handle ethernet. >=20 > It's just a matter of programming. F4 MCU dev boards are cheap. Don't know that one, but I guess I should look > Maybe it's the 1000+ page reference manual that has people spooked? Or > perhaps there's a revulsion for ARM MCUs.... Many newer Arduinos are ARM; I've used both those and the earlier ones. =20 For some stuff I now like to go for Raspberry Pico, which is like a more-powe= rful Arduino for less money. My DDCMP controller uses one of those. paul --===============6642448932809312125==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 1 01:08:25 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 18:08:04 -0700 Message-ID: <1a4aaed7-521a-5ee6-7144-c45c13e40434@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <06f09a70-48fe-458e-8c63-7c0077f59c5a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9122164757706276960==" --===============9122164757706276960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-11-30 5:43 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/30/22 14:45, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: >> I have a kennedy 9100 with an unformatted pertec interface that I would >> love to use for imaging tapes from my AS/400 >> >> It seems like strapping a logic analyzer to the read connector, and an >> arduino on the command connector, may be fairly easily done? Has anyone >> done that? > > I have to confess that I've never understood the Arduino thing. It > seems to be limiting the functionality of an MCU in the name of convenience. > > An inexpensive STM32F4 or F7 MCU can have, depending on the package, > over 100 5V tolerant GPIOs, lots of DMA channels, 15 timers, USB > support, and even handle ethernet. > > It's just a matter of programming. F4 MCU dev boards are cheap. > > Maybe it's the 1000+ page reference manual that has people spooked? Or > perhaps there's a revulsion for ARM MCUs.... > > Forgive me, I'm feeling a bit testy today... > > --Chuck I have never needed more than a 8085, or stupid USB support, many moons ago. I suspect easy point and click software development is the thing today, and only the lastest tools will claim to be bug free, until next month. Ben feeling grumpy at the state of the art development tools at the moment looking for a good inexpensve PCB layout software. --===============9122164757706276960==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Dec 1 01:10:49 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 20:10:27 -0500 Message-ID: <2069E495-B067-4100-8831-49A9D0A5C693@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <06f09a70-48fe-458e-8c63-7c0077f59c5a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4569611764772044880==" --===============4569611764772044880== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Nov 30, 2022, at 7:43 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 11/30/22 14:45, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: >> I have a kennedy 9100 with an unformatted pertec interface that I would >> love to use for imaging tapes from my AS/400 >>=20 >> It seems like strapping a logic analyzer to the read connector, and an >> arduino on the command connector, may be fairly easily done? Has anyone >> done that? >=20 > I have to confess that I've never understood the Arduino thing. It > seems to be limiting the functionality of an MCU in the name of convenience. >=20 > An inexpensive STM32F4 or F7 MCU can have, depending on the package, > over 100 5V tolerant GPIOs, ... 5V tolerant does not mean 5V compatible. I have right now some 5V devices I = want to control, and it's not exactly clear whether a 3.3V device will drive = outputs high enough to reliably make 5V devices see them as high. Arduinos c= an be had in actual 5V models (5V power, standard 5V logic levels in and out)= . Not the fast ARM ones but for many purposes good enough. paul --===============4569611764772044880==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Thu Dec 1 13:36:10 2022 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2022 14:35:29 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2069E495-B067-4100-8831-49A9D0A5C693@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6722187737545558910==" --===============6722187737545558910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 08:10:27PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: [...] > 5V tolerant does not mean 5V compatible. I have right now some 5V devices > I want to control, and it's not exactly clear whether a 3.3V device will > drive outputs high enough to reliably make 5V devices see them as high. > Arduinos can be had in actual 5V models (5V power, standard 5V logic > levels in and out). Not the fast ARM ones but for many purposes good > enough. There's no single "standard 5V logic levels". The usual comparison is between TTL and CMOS of course, but there are also the subfamilies which are mostly compatible, right up until they aren't. Anyway, you can usually drive a TTL(-compatible) input from a 3.3V output because TTL treats anything above 2V as a logic 1. The "usually" caveat is because there are pathological devices out there, so check those datasheets to see if they're compatible. In particular, some microcontrollers can only source limited current and some rare old TTL devices are quite thirsty. (At least they won't get rarer if you try this, as you'll burn out the microcontroller first.) --===============6722187737545558910==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Dec 1 16:51:41 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2022 08:51:10 -0800 Message-ID: <02a06e4b-1e64-cba0-2179-67927beea453@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2422710411575880643==" --===============2422710411575880643== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/1/22 05:35, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote> > Anyway, you can usually drive a TTL(-compatible) input from a 3.3V output > because TTL treats anything above 2V as a logic 1. The "usually" caveat is > because there are pathological devices out there, so check those datasheets > to see if they're compatible. In particular, some microcontrollers can only > source limited current and some rare old TTL devices are quite thirsty. (At > least they won't get rarer if you try this, as you'll burn out the > microcontroller first.) A more significant issue is the substitution of 74HC for 74HCT logic in applications driven by TTL in bus applications, where the loading can be significant. Vih min tends to be around 3 volts for HC devices. Bottom line is that you may be able to get away with using an HC instead of an HCT device as a TTL bus receiver, but don't count on it always working. --Chuck --===============2422710411575880643==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Dec 1 17:33:47 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2022 12:33:23 -0500 Message-ID: <0EC99A05-889F-4781-9782-5FFCA0C414E2@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1213036840636069718==" --===============1213036840636069718== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 1, 2022, at 8:35 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 08:10:27PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> 5V tolerant does not mean 5V compatible. I have right now some 5V devices >> I want to control, and it's not exactly clear whether a 3.3V device will >> drive outputs high enough to reliably make 5V devices see them as high. >> Arduinos can be had in actual 5V models (5V power, standard 5V logic >> levels in and out). Not the fast ARM ones but for many purposes good >> enough. >=20 > There's no single "standard 5V logic levels". The usual comparison is > between TTL and CMOS of course, but there are also the subfamilies which are > mostly compatible, right up until they aren't. >=20 > Anyway, you can usually drive a TTL(-compatible) input from a 3.3V output > because TTL treats anything above 2V as a logic 1.=20 Good point. =20 In the one application I did earlier where I chose the 5V Arduino is a PS2 ke= yboard to LK201 converter, where I'm dealing with keyboards whose internals a= re unknown and might not be particularly tolerant of oddball levels. The one= I'm looking at now involves driving either HCT chips or digital radio ASICs = (HSP 50214/50215). The latter clearly say 2V is high enough, and input curre= nts are just a few microamps. The other difficulty is inputs, if the MCU isn't 5V tolerant. Raspberry Pico= isn't, for example. For input-only, a resistor divider is a sufficient solu= tion. For bidirectional wires it gets complicated, in that case I'd probably= have to use an honest to goodness translator IC. It looks like I dont have = that case at the moment, though. paul --===============1213036840636069718==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Thu Dec 1 19:59:35 2022 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2022 14:02:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <06f09a70-48fe-458e-8c63-7c0077f59c5a@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9150879148939769585==" --===============9150879148939769585== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 04:43:08PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/30/22 14:45, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > > I have a kennedy 9100 with an unformatted pertec interface that I would > > love to use for imaging tapes from my AS/400 > > > > It seems like strapping a logic analyzer to the read connector, and an > > arduino on the command connector, may be fairly easily done? Has anyone > > done that? > > I have to confess that I've never understood the Arduino thing. It > seems to be limiting the functionality of an MCU in the name of convenience. > It also gives portability across manufactures for the simple stuff and a consistant though not the most feature full enviornment that is the same for each board. You can use the low level functions of the chips if you want but then it won't be portable. Also a good amount of how to do X with it online. I use it for that reason. Good for small projects. I've used manufacturer specific enviornments in the past but see no need to. Last project was some remote sensors using ESP32. $8 for the board. Arm processor. --===============9150879148939769585==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Thu Dec 1 20:02:52 2022 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2022 15:02:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0860239857005338262==" --===============0860239857005338262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *ESP32 =3D Xtensa core https://dl.espressif.com/github_assets/espressif/xtensa-isa-doc/releases/down= load/latest/Xtensa.pdf On Thu, Dec 1, 2022, 2:59 PM David Gesswein via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 04:43:08PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 11/30/22 14:45, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > > > I have a kennedy 9100 with an unformatted pertec interface that I would > > > love to use for imaging tapes from my AS/400 > > > > > > It seems like strapping a logic analyzer to the read connector, and an > > > arduino on the command connector, may be fairly easily done? Has anyone > > > done that? > > > > I have to confess that I've never understood the Arduino thing. It > > seems to be limiting the functionality of an MCU in the name of > convenience. > > > > It also gives portability across manufactures for the simple stuff and > a consistant though not the most feature full enviornment that is the same > for each board. You can use the low level functions of the chips if you > want > but then it won't be portable. Also a good amount of how to do X with it > online. > > I use it for that reason. Good for small projects. > I've used manufacturer specific enviornments in the past but see no need > to. > > Last project was some remote sensors using ESP32. $8 for the board. Arm > processor. > --===============0860239857005338262==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Dec 1 20:34:47 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2022 12:34:19 -0800 Message-ID: <8673c5e3-58f9-91c4-6481-51a5bcf702df@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7210073756336920315==" --===============7210073756336920315== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/1/22 11:02, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > It also gives portability across manufactures for the simple stuff and > a consistant though not the most feature full enviornment that is the same > for each board. You can use the low level functions of the chips if you wan= t=20 > but then it won't be portable. Also a good amount of how to do X with it=20 > online. Don't a few libraries do that without saddling you with a development environment? I use opencm3 for a lot of ARM-related simplish MCU things. There was a stm32duino group, but it seems to have gone moribund. It appeared to concentrate mostly on the "blue pill" platform as well as the older Maple mini boards (anyone need any of those?) I had a brief encounter with the PIC32 Arduino Uno from Digilent, but I wasn't taken by it. --Chuck --===============7210073756336920315==-- From jay-tuhs9915@toaster.com Fri Dec 2 01:02:55 2022 From: Jay Logue To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Pertec controller; was: anybody need 1/2" tape drives? Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2022 13:02:51 -0800 Message-ID: <427d6b97-27e8-4b0f-ae26-04f930dd77d1@toaster.com> In-Reply-To: <8673c5e3-58f9-91c4-6481-51a5bcf702df@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3439793093959303548==" --===============3439793093959303548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/1/2022 12:34 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Don't a few libraries do that without saddling you with a development > environment? I assume you mean the IDE?  No reason to use that if you don't want to.  On the rare occasions I do Arduino development (mostly on the excellent Teensy ARM boards) I use my preferred editor and a simple makefile. As I see it, the value of Arduino is in its ability to reach people who otherwise wouldn't be able to master embedded development, either because they lack sufficient training, or because they simply have better things to do with their time.  I don't particularly need its simplicity, but I understand that others do. --Jay --===============3439793093959303548==-- From philip@axeside.co.uk Fri Dec 2 13:47:47 2022 From: Philip Belben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Stuff available in Somerset, England - Update and MORE STUFF Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2022 13:14:27 +0000 Message-ID: <00ff9b20-6ef5-9a72-742d-203259538795@axeside.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5381617471322769604==" --===============5381617471322769604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, I am still trying to declutter enough to empty the storage container, and have room to move around in my basement. I have decided not to renew the lease on the storage container on 10 January, so stuff needs to go by then. The following stuff will go in the skip if no one comes and collects it by early January: D-Scan video printer DECwriter 2 printing terminal A device for cleaning DEC RK05 platters, poor condition, mechanicals corroded, no cleaning pads or fluid - probably display only. The following stuff will probably also go in the skip: Teletype 43 (the dot-matrix Teletype - this is rare but boring; probably rare because boring) A wide range of other small dot-matrix printers - let me know if you are interested in anything of that nature, and I'll try and make a list. The following are available free to anyone prepared to collect: IBM System/23 Datamaster - complete with (yet another!) dot matrix printer. I have some software for this as well. ACT Sirius 1. A fairly complete system including some software (Wordstar and some accounting packages). I may need help disentangling Sirius stuff from Apricot stuff, since the same ACT logo often appears on both. The following are available, but I'd like to be offered a non-negative amount of money: Apple II systems. Four system units (I think they are two //e, one ][ plus and one ][ Europlus, but I can check. Some disk drives. I should be able to find a monitor or two. Quite a lot of manyals, plug-in cards, probably some software disks - but I may need help sorting out Apple II disks from others. Some of the plug-in cards are prototyping cards, and I think one has been set up to talk to some analogue gaming paddles. Research Machines 380Z. (One of the people who collected other stuff from me has expressed an interest in this, and his prior interest will be taken into account in considering offers.) I have a system box (I haven't yet looked inside) with diskette drives on the front; I also have a GIPB (IEEE-488) card and a rather nice I/O prototyping card - it is pre-populated with three PIO chips and one other large chip, all in wire-wrappable sockets, and lots of space for a homebrew interface. A Victor V86P laptop. I know nothing about this machine, but it has the Sirius logo on it (I think the Sirius 1 was sold under the Victor brand in some places, so this figures) As before, please reply to declutter(a)axeside.co.uk, whether or not you reply here. If I get interest in some of the machines, I'm happy to look more closely at them and try to answer queries. In general, I'd prefer people to come and collect stuff, but for the smaller items (e.g. the Victor laptop) I'd be happy to discuss shipping. Collecting stuff yourself is a more reliable way of getting the parts you need (e.g. cables), and of finding other stuff that I don't mind getting rid of. As regards the systems for which I want money, I do not guarantee to accept the highest offer; as I said, I have already had interest in the 380Z and this will be taken into account. Finally, I am trying to contact Anthony Sibley. We started making arrangements for him to collect some stuff, and then I stopped getting replies to my e-mails. Either he is not receiving them or I am not receiving his replies. Please get in touch, or your TU16 will go elsewhere, maybe even in the skip. Philip. --===============5381617471322769604==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sat Dec 3 18:10:30 2022 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Peripherals available in Dorset, England : Free to a Good Home Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2022 18:07:18 +0000 Message-ID: <388e1d7bb4f349bb8c931cf0fca6147e@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1951329288134194054==" --===============1951329288134194054== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks The following job lots are available as described but untested, stored in the= attic / house since last use : UMMV Lot A : Matsui B&W 13" 1420T SIL UHF & Scart 230V (may be useful as a retro monitor esp as exhibit) [operable when last in service ~?] Lot B : Samsung CLP-350 A4 Color Laser Enet 230V - contains consumables, level unknown - very streaky when last used + CLP-R350A Imaging Unit + CLP-W350A Waste Bin + CLP-C350A Cyan toner + CLP-Y350A Yellow toner + CLP-M350A Magenta toner [consumables BNIB] [operable but streaky when last in service ~2015] Lot C : Samsung CLP680 A4 Color Laser Enet 230V - contains consumables, level unknown - motion fault when last used "A1-4112" + CLT-K506L Black toner [consumable BNIB] [defective "A1-4112" when last in service ~2022] While these are on the margins of classic, I'm happy to give the community fi= rst refusal on a free to a good home basis. =20 Collection needs to be no later than next Thursday 8 December. If firm colle= ction arrangements have not been made by CoP Sunday they will be offered on G= umtree ... If they are still here after Thursday, they may go wheee. Apolog= ies for the short notice. Replies to ftagh(a)janefield.org will be regarded as offers. Collection offe= rs will be considered in the round, but the early bird is likely to have an a= dvantage, accepted offers will be honoured until the agreed collection time p= asses, thereafter the acceptance will lapse and they will be back in play. Martin --===============1951329288134194054==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sat Dec 3 18:33:43 2022 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] CORRECTION: Peripherals available in Dorset, England : Free to a Good Home Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2022 18:33:22 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2387011891354984412==" --===============2387011891354984412== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ftagh(a)janefield.net (NOT .org) Martin -----Original Message----- From: Martin Bishop via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 03 December 2022 18:07 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk(a)classiccmp.org= ) Cc: Martin Bishop Subject: [cctalk] Peripherals available in Dorset, England : Free to a Good H= ome Folks The following job lots are available as described but untested, stored in the= attic / house since last use : UMMV Lot A : Matsui B&W 13" 1420T SIL UHF & Scart 230V (may be useful as a retro m= onitor esp as exhibit) [operable when last in service ~?] Lot B : Samsung CLP-350 A4 Color Laser Enet 230V - contains consumables, level unknown - very streaky when last used + CLP-R350A Imaging Unit + CLP-W350A Waste Bin + CLP-C350A Cyan toner + CLP-Y350A Yellow toner + CLP-M350A Magenta toner [consumables BNIB] [operable but streaky when last in service ~2015] Lot C : Samsung CLP680 A4 Color Laser Enet 230V - contains consumables, level unknown - motion fault when last used "A1-4112" + CLT-K506L Black toner [consumable BNIB] [defective "A1-4112" when last in service ~2022] While these are on the margins of classic, I'm happy to give the community fi= rst refusal on a free to a good home basis. =20 Collection needs to be no later than next Thursday 8 December. If firm colle= ction arrangements have not been made by CoP Sunday they will be offered on G= umtree ... If they are still here after Thursday, they may go wheee. Apolog= ies for the short notice. Replies to ftagh(a)janefield.net will be regarded as offers. Collection offe= rs will be considered in the round, but the early bird is likely to have an a= dvantage, accepted offers will be honoured until the agreed collection time p= asses, thereafter the acceptance will lapse and they will be back in play. Martin --===============2387011891354984412==-- From rumi_ml@rtfm.hu Sun Dec 4 19:40:38 2022 From: Rumi Szabolcs To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2022 19:32:17 +0000 Message-ID: <20221204193217.0142a37a821b14d0fef5faf0@rtfm.hu> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558066B142EC58636245CF9BED299=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6218319792782325578==" --===============6218319792782325578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The Hungarian Central Institute of Physics (KFKI) in Soviet times used to make PDP and VAX clones branded as "TPA": http://hampage.hu/tpa/e_index.html Kudos to =C3=81kos Varga "Hamster", one of the earliest Hungarian DEC collectors for preserving this information back in the '90s. Regards, Sab On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:57:52 -0400 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > >=20 > > After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (= perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Sovi= ets. > >=20 > > I=E2=80=99m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and dep= ite poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, = depite not strictly a =E2=80=9CPDP=E2=80=9D, the VAX series was also cloned. >=20 > I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the > cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR > via India who had no problems with violating their agreements > with their allies. >=20 > Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the > VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country > in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC. >=20 > bill >=20 --=20 --===============6218319792782325578==-- From cctalk@snarc.net Sun Dec 4 23:24:00 2022 From: Evan Koblentz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Stuff available in Somerset, England - Update and MORE STUFF Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:49:56 +0000 Message-ID: <459ea16c-9c3b-fcd0-a025-79d1ce760848@snarc.net> In-Reply-To: <00ff9b20-6ef5-9a72-742d-203259538795@axeside.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0374201807501450300==" --===============0374201807501450300== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Doh! I saw the beginning of the subject line and got excited: I'm in Somerset ... New Jersey. On 12/2/22 08:14, Philip Belben via cctalk wrote: > Dear all, > > I am still trying to declutter enough to empty the storage container, > and have room to move around in my basement.  I have decided not to > renew the lease on the storage container on 10 January, so stuff needs > to go by then. > > The following stuff will go in the skip if no one comes and collects > it by early January: > > D-Scan video printer > > DECwriter 2 printing terminal > > A device for cleaning DEC RK05 platters, poor condition, mechanicals > corroded, no cleaning pads or fluid - probably display only. > > The following stuff will probably also go in the skip: > > Teletype 43 (the dot-matrix Teletype - this is rare but boring; > probably rare because boring) > > A wide range of other small dot-matrix printers - let me know if you > are interested in anything of that nature, and I'll try and make a list. > > The following are available free to anyone prepared to collect: > > IBM System/23 Datamaster - complete with (yet another!) dot matrix > printer.  I have some software for this as well. > > ACT Sirius 1.  A fairly complete system including some software > (Wordstar and some accounting packages).  I may need help > disentangling Sirius stuff from Apricot stuff, since the same ACT logo > often appears on both. > > The following are available, but I'd like to be offered a non-negative > amount of money: > > Apple II systems.  Four system units (I think they are two //e, one ][ > plus and one ][ Europlus, but I can check.  Some disk drives.  I > should be able to find a monitor or two.  Quite a lot of manyals, > plug-in cards, probably some software disks - but I may need help > sorting out Apple II disks from others.  Some of the plug-in cards are > prototyping cards, and I think one has been set up to talk to some > analogue gaming paddles. > > Research Machines 380Z.  (One of the people who collected other stuff > from me has expressed an interest in this, and his prior interest will > be taken into account in considering offers.)  I have a system box (I > haven't yet looked inside) with diskette drives on the front;  I also > have a GIPB (IEEE-488) card and a rather nice I/O prototyping card - > it is pre-populated with three PIO chips and one other large chip, all > in wire-wrappable sockets, and lots of space for a homebrew interface. > > A Victor V86P laptop.  I know nothing about this machine, but it has > the Sirius logo on it (I think the Sirius 1 was sold under the Victor > brand in some places, so this figures) > > As before, please reply to declutter(a)axeside.co.uk, whether or not you > reply here.  If I get interest in some of the machines, I'm happy to > look more closely at them and try to answer queries.  In general, I'd > prefer people to come and collect stuff, but for the smaller items > (e.g. the Victor laptop) I'd be happy to discuss shipping.  Collecting > stuff yourself is a more reliable way of getting the parts you need > (e.g. cables), and of finding other stuff that I don't mind getting > rid of. > > As regards the systems for which I want money, I do not guarantee to > accept the highest offer; as I said, I have already had interest in > the 380Z and this will be taken into account. > > Finally, I am trying to contact Anthony Sibley.  We started making > arrangements for him to collect some stuff, and then I stopped getting > replies to my e-mails.  Either he is not receiving them or I am not > receiving his replies.  Please get in touch, or your TU16 will go > elsewhere, maybe even in the skip. > > Philip. > --===============0374201807501450300==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Mon Dec 5 03:44:35 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2022 21:11:44 -0600 Message-ID: <20221205034415.3E6C48252B@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <20221204193217.0142a37a821b14d0fef5faf0@rtfm.hu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1048235539098166642==" --===============1048235539098166642== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm cleaning out my warehouse bit by bit, and started selling posters on the eBay. I have two of these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/334649989332 I sold one of these posters last week for $95+20 s/h. I listed the second one and the buyer of the first one submitted an offer for $300 and then for $500. Then a second guy offered $350. I declined all three, then did the rotten move of jacking the price to $350 because no one had yet bid, and now the second guy has bid $350. Not to humble brag, but what do I have here? I probably got them for free at a trade show. - John --===============1048235539098166642==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Dec 5 04:35:17 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2022 20:34:11 -0800 Message-ID: <007501d90862$d302e5e0$7908b1a0$@net> In-Reply-To: <20221205034415.3E6C48252B@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7881168133671924494==" --===============7881168133671924494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Not to humble brag, but what do I have here? I probably got > them for free at a trade show. Two idiots? I mean if I bought one poster for $95 and the same seller had a second one I would offer $95 for it again. Why would you offer $300 and then up it to $500? -Ali --===============7881168133671924494==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Dec 5 04:52:34 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2022 20:52:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007501d90862$d302e5e0$7908b1a0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1125772486029339741==" --===============1125772486029339741== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a few possible scenarios, . . . you hang it up in your cubicle, and your boss says, "I've got to have one of those! I'd pay many hundreds of dollars, DON'T LET IT GET AWAY!,..." I remember when the advertising outfit came around in Berkeley (they did them in every town). I did not pay the money to get my business on it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Sun, 4 Dec 2022, Ali via cctalk wrote: > >> Not to humble brag, but what do I have here? I probably got >> them for free at a trade show. > > Two idiots? I mean if I bought one poster for $95 and the same seller had a > second one I would offer $95 for it again. Why would you offer $300 and then > up it to $500? > > -Ali --===============1125772486029339741==-- From brianb1224@aol.com Mon Dec 5 04:57:20 2022 From: brianb1224 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2022 22:50:26 -0600 Message-ID: <1330265486.185892.1670216218699@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <20221205034415.3E6C48252B@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5045126226856712016==" --===============5045126226856712016== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually pretty smart. You probably should have worked for Commodore Amiga ma= rketing. Where is Commodore Amiga in the map ? -------- Original message --------From: John Foust via cctalk Date: 12/4/22 9:44 PM (GMT-06:00) To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc= : John Foust Subject: [cctalk] Old Silicon Valley pos= ter I'm cleaning out my warehouse bit by bit, and started selling posterson t= he eBay.I have two of these:https://www.ebay.com/itm/334649989332I sold one o= f these posters last week for $95+20 s/h.=C2=A0 I listed the second one and t= he buyer of the first one submitted an offer for $300 and then for $500.=C2= =A0 Then a second guy offered $350.I declined all three, then did the rotten = move of jacking the price to $350 because no one had yet bid, and now the sec= ond guy has bid $350. Not to humble brag, but what do I have here?=C2=A0 I pr= obably got them for free at a trade show.- John --===============5045126226856712016==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Dec 5 05:34:53 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2022 21:34:33 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1330265486.185892.1670216218699@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6257470555644808578==" --===============6257470555644808578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For someplace that actually generates some tourist and souvenir traffic, it made sense. It is negligible cost to produce, and is a much easier sell for Professor Harold Hill than convincing the townfolk that they need to start a youth band to counteract the trouble, right here in River City, of the pool hall. "You don't want YOUR business to be left off of the map" But when they do a "chamber of commerce" sell for every town and exceed saturation it doesn't work so well. Berkeley, Albany, El Cerrito, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6257470555644808578==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Dec 5 07:14:00 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2022 23:13:32 -0800 Message-ID: <6872c75f-3dec-dc77-49cf-8bafa10ec16c@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3896897975009070116==" --===============3896897975009070116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/4/22 21:34, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > For someplace that actually generates some tourist and souvenir traffic, > it made sense. > That's the funny thing about posters--some lapse into "what the heck was that about?" For example, I have a Cray 2 "Bubbles" poster that's been moldering in a closet for a couple of decades. I wonder how many today even remember the Cray 2. --Chuck --===============3896897975009070116==-- From romietoo9ibi@xx.vu Mon Dec 5 07:27:52 2022 From: Alexander Huemer To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 07:20:52 +0000 Message-ID: <20221205072052.zw4qxlnl3qdakhwg@ghost.xx.vu> In-Reply-To: <20221205034415.3E6C48252B@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1966774683927853326==" --===============1966774683927853326== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would be cool if those could be scanned before disappearing somewhere. -Alex On Sun, Dec 04, 2022 at 09:11:44PM -0600, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > I'm cleaning out my warehouse bit by bit, and started selling posters > on the eBay. > > I have two of these: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/334649989332 > > I sold one of these posters last week for $95+20 s/h. > > I listed the second one and the buyer of the first one submitted > an offer for $300 and then for $500. Then a second guy offered $350. > I declined all three, then did the rotten move of jacking the price > to $350 because no one had yet bid, and now the second guy > has bid $350. > > Not to humble brag, but what do I have here? I probably got > them for free at a trade show. > > - John > --===============1966774683927853326==-- From steven@malikoff.com Mon Dec 5 08:00:27 2022 From: steven@malikoff.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 17:51:16 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221204193217.0142a37a821b14d0fef5faf0@rtfm.hu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5449683738045342619==" --===============5449683738045342619== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable About 5 years ago I saved these pics off eBay of what looked to me like an Ea= stern Bloc PDP-11/15 console. As I have a (rebadged) 11/15, I thought they were interesting. These aren't my photos, I don't own them, saved for educational purposes only. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_01= .jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_02= .jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_03= .jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_04= .jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_05= .jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_06= .jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_07= .jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_08= .jpg Steve. --===============5449683738045342619==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon Dec 5 08:07:52 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 08:07:27 +0000 Message-ID: <1312014993.668535.1670227647336@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20221205072052.zw4qxlnl3qdakhwg@ghost.xx.vu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7609204590901227180==" --===============7609204590901227180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Watch PAWN stars do America WITH CHUM LEE=C2=A0 ETC. . The SF. Episode that r= an.=C2=A0 That poster was in it I believe=C2=A0 Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:27 AM, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote: It would be cool if those could be scanned before disappe= aring=20 somewhere. -Alex On Sun, Dec 04, 2022 at 09:11:44PM -0600, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I'm cleaning out my warehouse bit by bit, and started selling posters > on the eBay. >=20 > I have two of these: >=20 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/334649989332 >=20 > I sold one of these posters last week for $95+20 s/h.=C2=A0=20 >=20 > I listed the second one and the buyer of the first one submitted=20 > an offer for $300 and then for $500.=C2=A0 Then a second guy offered $350. > I declined all three, then did the rotten move of jacking the price=20 > to $350 because no one had yet bid, and now the second guy=20 > has bid $350.=20 >=20 > Not to humble brag, but what do I have here?=C2=A0 I probably got=20 > them for free at a trade show. >=20 > - John >=20 =20 --===============7609204590901227180==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Mon Dec 5 14:07:19 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 07:56:36 -0600 Message-ID: <20221205140659.DD60482533@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <20221205072052.zw4qxlnl3qdakhwg@ghost.xx.vu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7068918623572531987==" --===============7068918623572531987== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 01:20 AM 12/5/2022, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote: >It would be cool if those could be scanned before disappearing >somewhere. Yes, I have considered that. I have an Epson V850 Pro flatbed. I'd need to scan it carefully in pieces and then use some kind of stitching tool. I use Microsoft ICE for pictures. I have an architectural client with a large format printer that can also scan, but I think it's only 300 DPI. The only credit I see on it is "PhotoGraphics." No idea if they're still around. They'd still have copyright, so I couldn't really reproduce it. - John --===============7068918623572531987==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Mon Dec 5 14:49:40 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 08:48:19 -0600 Message-ID: <20221205144923.A0DA48253F@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <1312014993.668535.1670227647336@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2157397968575520561==" --===============2157397968575520561== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 02:07 AM 12/5/2022, you wrote: >Watch PAWN stars do America WITH CHUM LEE=C3=82 ETC. . The SF. Episode that= ran.=C3=82 That poster was in it I believe=C3=82=20 I don't see it. I see a guy with sci-fi posters at 38:00. https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3 Does anyone have a guess of its date of creation, based on companies that are there? - John --===============2157397968575520561==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 5 14:51:01 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 06:50:31 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221205144923.A0DA48253F@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6073517419246612643==" --===============6073517419246612643== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There's got to be a copyright date hidden somewhere in it. Sellam On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 6:49 AM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 02:07 AM 12/5/2022, you wrote: > >Watch PAWN stars do America WITH CHUM LEE ETC. . The SF. Episode that > ran. That poster was in it I believe > > I don't see it. I see a guy with sci-fi posters at 38:00. > > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3 > > Does anyone have a guess of its date of creation, based on > companies that are there? > > - John > > --===============6073517419246612643==-- From nospam212-cctalk@yahoo.com Mon Dec 5 14:54:14 2022 From: David Williams To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 08:53:46 -0600 Message-ID: <5605095b-5d52-8f93-d7f2-a7ca296f7439@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20221205072052.zw4qxlnl3qdakhwg@ghost.xx.vu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0782273806446712729==" --===============0782273806446712729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've seen several different versions of this map on archive.org over the years. Some as posters, some as calendars. David On 12/5/2022 1:20 AM, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote: > It would be cool if those could be scanned before disappearing > somewhere. > > -Alex --===============0782273806446712729==-- From rich.cini@verizon.net Mon Dec 5 14:57:16 2022 From: Richard Cini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 09:56:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5605095b-5d52-8f93-d7f2-a7ca296f7439@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6000617478626408894==" --===============6000617478626408894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this is pretty cool map; I've seen different versions too in publicat= ions like Computerworld and EE Times (long ago of course). I wonder if an int= eractive map exists somewhere, like overlaying all of the old addresses in Go= ogle Maps or something like that. Rich =EF=BB=BFOn 12/5/22, 9:54 AM, "David Williams via cctalk" wrote: I've seen several different versions of this map on archive.org over the = years. Some as posters, some as calendars. David On 12/5/2022 1:20 AM, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote: > It would be cool if those could be scanned before disappearing > somewhere. >=20 > -Alex --===============6000617478626408894==-- From jon@jonworld.com Mon Dec 5 15:14:28 2022 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 15:13:58 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0849434296799470416==" --===============0849434296799470416== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fry's also used to publish these maps, if this is what I think it is. On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 2:56 PM Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > > I think this is pretty cool map; I've seen different versions too in public= ations like Computerworld and EE Times (long ago of course). I wonder if an i= nteractive map exists somewhere, like overlaying all of the old addresses in = Google Maps or something like that. > > Rich > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 12/5/22, 9:54 AM, "David Williams via cctalk" wrote: > > I've seen several different versions of this map on archive.org over the > years. Some as posters, some as calendars. > > David > > On 12/5/2022 1:20 AM, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote: > > It would be cool if those could be scanned before disappearing > > somewhere. > > > > -Alex > > --=20 -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============0849434296799470416==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Mon Dec 5 15:23:42 2022 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 10:22:44 -0500 Message-ID: <05d401d908bd$6cfdbdf0$46f939d0$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <05d401d908bd$6cfdbdf0$46f939d0$.ref@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5844648939370692197==" --===============5844648939370692197== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to spam the list, but I find myself in need of some holiday cash (or positive PayPal balance, anyway) so I am offering a REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera for sale. This is ONLY THE CAMERA. You will need to have your own Cyclops interface board set or build an XYZ scope interface as in the manual: https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/Cromemco%2088%20ACC%2 0Manual.pdf This will be the camera I demonstrated at 2018 VCF East. All three circuit boards are clearly labeled REPLICA in the copper layer. Details of the construction and other photographs are on my web page: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/cyclops/index.html#Cromemco I would much rather sell it here to someone who clearly understands what they are getting, rather than dealing with ebay. I will also include a pair of REPLICA side panels (made from measurements of an original) that I had made last year. I would be happy to zoom with the buyer and demonstrate the camera in operation. Email me directly if interested. Thanks, Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============5844648939370692197==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Mon Dec 5 17:31:45 2022 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 12:31:13 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <05d401d908bd$6cfdbdf0$46f939d0$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2188686113667998042==" --===============2188686113667998042== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Was the image sensor a CCD/PD imager or clever use of a memory chip with a window? On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 10:23 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sorry to spam the list, but I find myself in need of some holiday cash (or > positive PayPal balance, anyway) so I am offering a REPLICA Cromemco > Cyclops > Camera for sale. This is ONLY THE CAMERA. You will need to have your own > Cyclops interface board set or build an XYZ scope interface as in the > manual: > > > > > https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/Cromemco%2088%20ACC%2 > 0Manual.pdf > > > > > This will be the camera I demonstrated at 2018 VCF East. All three circuit > boards are clearly labeled REPLICA in the copper layer. Details of the > construction and other photographs are on my web page: > > > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/cyclops/index.html#Cromemco > > > > I would much rather sell it here to someone who clearly understands what > they are getting, rather than dealing with ebay. I will also include a > pair > of REPLICA side panels (made from measurements of an original) that I had > made last year. I would be happy to zoom with the buyer and demonstrate > the > camera in operation. > > > > Email me directly if interested. > > > > Thanks, > > Bill S. > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > --===============2188686113667998042==-- From philip@axeside.co.uk Mon Dec 5 17:42:29 2022 From: Philip Belben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Stuff available in Somerset, England - Update and PICTURES Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 17:42:02 +0000 Message-ID: <854d4d03-645e-a7db-4855-003941fe4a3e@axeside.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <00ff9b20-6ef5-9a72-742d-203259538795@axeside.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5593668390481193832==" --===============5593668390481193832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit More updates. The person interested in the 380Z seems to be pulling out. Another person may be interested, but I am open to offers from people on the list (and elsewhere). It is hard to gauge prices for something this rare - I found very little on eBay, although there was a keyboard (just the keyboard!) that sold for £164 recently. I imagine I might make a thousand if I were to break it up and sell the parts individually. I don't want that to happen, so I am certainly not looking that sort of money; but I'd like to get something for it from an enthusiast. There are some pictures here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pdb11/albums/72177720304184790 You can see that the front panel is rather grubby (those diskette drives may need stripping down) and there is some corrosion on the back panel, especially around the power inlet. Otherwise it looks pretty clean. I don't know what monitor goes with this, otherwise it is pretty complete, too. I have quite a number of monitors whose system is unknown, so one of them may go with this. I have had a little interest in the Apple II stuff. I was wrong about the systems - I have one ][ plus, TWO ][ europlus and ONE //e. Also, the gaming paddles (six pairs!) are standard Apple ones, not related to the prototyping boards. These systems also don't have monitors, and the presence of UHF TV encoders among the video cards is ominous; but among the manuals is one for a monitor I think I have, so that could go with these. Pictures are here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pdb11/albums/72177720304213025 Again, price. Searching eBay suggests that these systems seem to sell for between £100 and £400 a time, and I am sure that Microsoft Z80 second processor card is worth something; so I'm looking for offers that take that into account. I am getting the most interest in the IBM S/23 Datamaster. I am in negotiations with a couple of people; I may post some pictures of that too before long. And finally, the D-SCAN video printer. Some pics here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pdb11/albums/72177720304217250 I also have a spare roll of colour transfer film for it. Nonetheless, I fear that one is going to end up in the skip. Philip. --===============5593668390481193832==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Mon Dec 5 17:55:08 2022 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 12:54:04 -0500 Message-ID: <05ed01d908d2$90f80cf0$b2e826d0$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5172498419566327390==" --===============5172498419566327390== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The image sensor is a MOSTEK MK4008P-9 or an AMI S4008-9. Cromemco used both= . They removed the lid and added a glass cover, but the cover is not necessa= ry. I have operated several cameras with no cover. If you scroll up to the = top of the page, you will see pictures of the chips. The memory cells in the= chips are three transistor design, allowing non-destructive reads. The devi= ce repeatedly reads the cell array, watching as they fade out due to charge l= eakage caused by light hitting the cell. Interestingly, the light sensitive = component in the cell is not the capacitor, but rather the transistor linked = to ground. The transistor is sensitive to visible light but is even more sen= sitive to infrared (just below visible). =20 Bill =20 From: Anders Nelson [mailto:anders.k.nelson(a)gmail.com]=20 Sent: Monday, December 05, 2022 12:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: William Sudbrink Subject: Re: [cctalk] REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera =20 Was the image sensor a CCD/PD imager or clever use of a memory chip with a w= indow? =20 On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 10:23 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk > wrote: Sorry to spam the list, but I find myself in need of some holiday cash (or positive PayPal balance, anyway) so I am offering a REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera for sale. This is ONLY THE CAMERA. You will need to have your own Cyclops interface board set or build an XYZ scope interface as in the manual: https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/Cromemco%2088%20ACC%2 = =20 0Manual.pdf This will be the camera I demonstrated at 2018 VCF East. All three circuit boards are clearly labeled REPLICA in the copper layer. Details of the construction and other photographs are on my web page: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/cyclops/index.html#Cromemco I would much rather sell it here to someone who clearly understands what they are getting, rather than dealing with ebay. I will also include a pair of REPLICA side panels (made from measurements of an original) that I had made last year. I would be happy to zoom with the buyer and demonstrate the camera in operation. Email me directly if interested. Thanks, Bill S. --=20 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com =20 --===============5172498419566327390==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Mon Dec 5 18:01:08 2022 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 13:00:03 -0500 Message-ID: <05f201d908d3$675c1570$36144050$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5947166184086849037==" --===============5947166184086849037== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Senior moment below=E2=80=A6 should (obviously) be just _above_ visible. =20 From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net]=20 Sent: Monday, December 05, 2022 12:54 PM To: 'Anders Nelson' ; 'General Discussion: On-To= pic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: [cctalk] REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera =20 The image sensor is a MOSTEK MK4008P-9 or an AMI S4008-9. Cromemco used both= . They removed the lid and added a glass cover, but the cover is not necessa= ry. I have operated several cameras with no cover. If you scroll up to the = top of the page, you will see pictures of the chips. The memory cells in the= chips are three transistor design, allowing non-destructive reads. The devi= ce repeatedly reads the cell array, watching as they fade out due to charge l= eakage caused by light hitting the cell. Interestingly, the light sensitive = component in the cell is not the capacitor, but rather the transistor linked = to ground. The transistor is sensitive to visible light but is even more sen= sitive to infrared (just below visible). =20 Bill =20 From: Anders Nelson [mailto:anders.k.nelson(a)gmail.com]=20 Sent: Monday, December 05, 2022 12:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: William Sudbrink > Subject: Re: [cctalk] REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera =20 Was the image sensor a CCD/PD imager or clever use of a memory chip with a w= indow? =20 On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 10:23 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk > wrote: Sorry to spam the list, but I find myself in need of some holiday cash (or positive PayPal balance, anyway) so I am offering a REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera for sale. This is ONLY THE CAMERA. You will need to have your own Cyclops interface board set or build an XYZ scope interface as in the manual: https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/Cromemco%2088%20ACC%2 = =20 0Manual.pdf This will be the camera I demonstrated at 2018 VCF East. All three circuit boards are clearly labeled REPLICA in the copper layer. Details of the construction and other photographs are on my web page: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/cyclops/index.html#Cromemco I would much rather sell it here to someone who clearly understands what they are getting, rather than dealing with ebay. I will also include a pair of REPLICA side panels (made from measurements of an original) that I had made last year. I would be happy to zoom with the buyer and demonstrate the camera in operation. Email me directly if interested. Thanks, Bill S. --=20 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com =20 --===============5947166184086849037==-- From ethan@757.org Mon Dec 5 18:03:14 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] A UK Vintage Computer exchange buddy? Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 12:55:41 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1711828007048151867==" --===============1711828007048151867== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I have looked at vintage UK computers on Facebook Marketplace and the like. The people usually will not post, especially to me in the USA. They are normally looking for local collection. Anyone in the UK want to be a vintage computer swap friend? Looking to get some systems from there and could help get systems from here in return. I am in the USA. Private message if interested! - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============1711828007048151867==-- From jon@jonworld.com Mon Dec 5 18:04:19 2022 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: A UK Vintage Computer exchange buddy? Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 18:03:51 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7223979480666093105==" --===============7223979480666093105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *waves frantically* What do you need? On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 6:02 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > I have looked at vintage UK computers on Facebook Marketplace and the > like. The people usually will not post, especially to me in the USA. They > are normally looking for local collection. Anyone in the UK want to be a > vintage computer swap friend? Looking to get some systems from there and > could help get systems from here in return. I am in the USA. > > Private message if interested! > > - Ethan > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============7223979480666093105==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Mon Dec 5 19:05:50 2022 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 14:05:18 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <05f201d908d3$675c1570$36144050$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6671456181240101113==" --===============6671456181240101113== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Today I learned, thank you! -- Anders Nelson On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 1:00 PM William Sudbrink wrote: > Senior moment below=E2=80=A6 should (obviously) be just _*above*_ visible. > > > > *From:* William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net] > *Sent:* Monday, December 05, 2022 12:54 PM > *To:* 'Anders Nelson' ; 'General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > *Subject:* RE: [cctalk] REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera > > > > The image sensor is a MOSTEK MK4008P-9 or an AMI S4008-9. Cromemco used > both. They removed the lid and added a glass cover, but the cover is not > necessary. I have operated several cameras with no cover. If you scroll > up to the top of the page, you will see pictures of the chips. The memory > cells in the chips are three transistor design, allowing non-destructive > reads. The device repeatedly reads the cell array, watching as they fade > out due to charge leakage caused by light hitting the cell. Interestingly, > the light sensitive component in the cell is not the capacitor, but rather > the transistor linked to ground. The transistor is sensitive to visible > light but is even more sensitive to infrared (just below visible). > > > > Bill > > > > *From:* Anders Nelson [mailto:anders.k.nelson(a)gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* Monday, December 05, 2022 12:31 PM > *To:* General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > *Cc:* William Sudbrink > *Subject:* Re: [cctalk] REPLICA Cromemco Cyclops Camera > > > > Was the image sensor a CCD/PD imager or clever use of a memory chip with > a window? > > > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 10:23 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Sorry to spam the list, but I find myself in need of some holiday cash (or > positive PayPal balance, anyway) so I am offering a REPLICA Cromemco > Cyclops > Camera for sale. This is ONLY THE CAMERA. You will need to have your own > Cyclops interface board set or build an XYZ scope interface as in the > manual: > > > > > https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/Cromemco%2088%20ACC%2 > 0Manual.pdf > > > > This will be the camera I demonstrated at 2018 VCF East. All three circuit > boards are clearly labeled REPLICA in the copper layer. Details of the > construction and other photographs are on my web page: > > > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/cyclops/index.html#Cromemco > > > > I would much rather sell it here to someone who clearly understands what > they are getting, rather than dealing with ebay. I will also include a > pair > of REPLICA side panels (made from measurements of an original) that I had > made last year. I would be happy to zoom with the buyer and demonstrate > the > camera in operation. > > > > Email me directly if interested. > > > > Thanks, > > Bill S. > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_-178727210965869595_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > --===============6671456181240101113==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Dec 5 20:35:52 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Stuff available in Somerset, England - Update and PICTURES Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 15:35:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <854d4d03-645e-a7db-4855-003941fe4a3e@axeside.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4780994505204488384==" --===============4780994505204488384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/5/22 12:42, Philip Belben via cctalk wrote: > > It is hard to gauge prices for something this rare - It's hard to gauge the prices on anything. Especially on the web. Not computer related but I have an old 22cal rifle that belonged to my father. And, as a child I fired it a few times, too. I would like to restore it if for no other reason than sentiment. A pristine, in like new condition version of one of these rifles is appraised at $100-$120. A bolt for this rifle sells for $118. Based on the prices found on the web it would cost over $500 to build one and it would not be pristine, like new. I frequently find the same thing when looking at vintage computer stuff. bill --===============4780994505204488384==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 5 20:46:25 2022 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Need power supplies? Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 12:45:58 -0800 Message-ID: <4918a44ebccc13f999be0abb2f1acf64369f3482.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <4918a44ebccc13f999be0abb2f1acf64369f3482.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1020703402661041063==" --===============1020703402661041063== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have two Power General FLU4-150 power supplies, apparently set up to be used in some kind of a server. They have an extra board that includes some Schottky diodes, presumably so they can be used in parallel without a failing one damaging a working one. I don't know the precise model numbers, but they provide +/- 5v and +/- 12v. One (or maybe both) would fit in a Postal Service medium flat-rate box. Yours for the price of a PDF shipping label. I also have five power supplies that appear to have come from Dell servers. I don't know their specs. They have a weird connector that actually has a Molex number (that I have forgotten). Let me know if you might want any of the Dell power supplies and I'll work out which box would be needed for shipping. If you can't use them for their originally-intended purposes, maybe you can convert them to lab-bench supplies. Van Snyder --===============1020703402661041063==-- From philip@axeside.co.uk Mon Dec 5 20:52:45 2022 From: Philip Belben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Stuff available in Somerset, England - Update and PICTURES Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 20:52:23 +0000 Message-ID: <3061df7f-3f62-4179-4a68-28cce9cf20f1@axeside.co.uk> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55802AD9208C4825DCC25BE2ED189=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7969372459832472719==" --===============7969372459832472719== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> It is hard to gauge prices for something this rare - > > It's hard to gauge the prices on anything.  Especially on the > web. > > Not computer related but I have an old 22cal rifle that belonged to > my father.  And, as a child I fired it a few times, too.  I would > like to restore it if for no other reason than sentiment. > > A pristine, in like new condition version of one of these rifles > is appraised at $100-$120.  A bolt for this rifle sells for $118. > Based on the prices found on the web it would cost over $500 to > build one and it would not be pristine, like new. > > I frequently find the same thing when looking at vintage computer > stuff. Alas, yes. The trouble is, people get an almost complete system, and then will pay quite a lot to get the last few bits they need. So the prices for components are mainly what someone will pay if they need that part to complete their system. As regards the 380Z, it is a nice machine, and not common, so I want it to go to an enthusiast, not be broken for parts. I only want a bit more than (say) two major components would fetch. I might accept even less than that, if I'm confident that the buyer really is an enthusiast. On the Apple II systems, however, these are common enough that I'm happy to split them up and sell the bits to make money, so I am hoping to get a fair ampount for the job lot. Maybe this'll be from someone who will break the systems up and sell the bits. I don't care. If I'm not offered enough, I'll do that myself. (Not to the extent of selling case parts separately, though - I have seen the case lid sold separately on eBay.) To anyone to whom I have quoted a possible price: if it's not acceptable, make me an offer! Philip. --===============7969372459832472719==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Dec 7 05:40:50 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] reset "pulse" stretcher need Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2022 23:35:21 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1801002904490154802==" --===============1801002904490154802== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This might be a bit off topic, so forgive me if so. The issue is a 24VAC motor with one connection to 24VAC and the other gated via two switches.  The first switch is a momentary one and the second is in parallel and connected to the motor.  A long enough momentary depression on the first switch actuates the electric motor enough to close the second switch, which then stays closed for 1 revolution. The problem is that a quick enough press and release of the first switch does not allow the motor to move far enough to close the second switch. Given the configuration, my general plan was a small one shot timer circuit that energized when the switch was initially depressed and then closed a relay in parallel with the first 2 switches, with a time period that was 1/10 to 1/2 the time of the motor revolution. a quick close and release of the first switch would start the timer, which would then close the parallel switch and then open it a short time later, and then the motor switch, which would still be closed, could signal the end of the cycle. But, I thought I'd ask around and see if a simpler option was available. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============1801002904490154802==-- From pat@vax11.net Wed Dec 7 14:44:25 2022 From: Patrick Finnegan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: reset "pulse" stretcher need Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 09:43:48 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6904338808006078337==" --===============6904338808006078337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 12:40 AM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > This might be a bit off topic, so forgive me if so. > > The issue is a 24VAC motor with one connection to 24VAC and the other > gated via two switches. The first switch is a momentary one and the > second is in parallel and connected to the motor. A long enough > momentary depression on the first switch actuates the electric motor > enough to close the second switch, which then stays closed for 1 > revolution. > > The problem is that a quick enough press and release of the first switch > does not allow the motor to move far enough to close the second switch. > > Given the configuration, my general plan was a small one shot timer > circuit that energized when the switch was initially depressed and then > closed a relay in parallel with the first 2 switches, with a time period > that was 1/10 to 1/2 the time of the motor revolution. a quick close and > release of the first switch would start the timer, which would then > close the parallel switch and then open it a short time later, and then > the motor switch, which would still be closed, could signal the end of > the cycle. > My two thoughts would be: 1) A 555-timer in one-shot mode 2) An S-R latch at is set by the push button, and cleared by 2nd switch Pat --===============6904338808006078337==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Wed Dec 7 15:08:28 2022 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: reset "pulse" stretcher need Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 10:07:56 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5235779660787396424==" --===============5235779660787396424== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That latch idea is neat! Both should work a treat. Anders On Wed, Dec 7, 2022, 9:44 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 12:40 AM Jim Brain via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > This might be a bit off topic, so forgive me if so. > > > > The issue is a 24VAC motor with one connection to 24VAC and the other > > gated via two switches. The first switch is a momentary one and the > > second is in parallel and connected to the motor. A long enough > > momentary depression on the first switch actuates the electric motor > > enough to close the second switch, which then stays closed for 1 > > revolution. > > > > The problem is that a quick enough press and release of the first switch > > does not allow the motor to move far enough to close the second switch. > > > > Given the configuration, my general plan was a small one shot timer > > circuit that energized when the switch was initially depressed and then > > closed a relay in parallel with the first 2 switches, with a time period > > that was 1/10 to 1/2 the time of the motor revolution. a quick close and > > release of the first switch would start the timer, which would then > > close the parallel switch and then open it a short time later, and then > > the motor switch, which would still be closed, could signal the end of > > the cycle. > > > > My two thoughts would be: > > 1) A 555-timer in one-shot mode > 2) An S-R latch at is set by the push button, and cleared by 2nd switch > > Pat > --===============5235779660787396424==-- From drb@msu.edu Wed Dec 7 16:43:27 2022 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: digest problem, starting with #115 Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 11:43:01 -0500 Message-ID: <20221207164301.AF67C45B5ED@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1345304303562429773==" --===============1345304303562429773== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has anyone else noticed that the list server is screwing up digest > emails, starting with Volume #115? Stan, Your subscription was set to "Summary Digest". I've switched it to "Plain Text Digests". Let's see if that makes things better. De --===============1345304303562429773==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Dec 7 17:26:21 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: reset "pulse" stretcher need Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 11:25:53 -0600 Message-ID: <1f98cad5-1199-18d7-974c-3a8695458349@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8177375597212561033==" --===============8177375597212561033== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/7/2022 8:43 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > My two thoughts would be: > > 1) A 555-timer in one-shot mode That was my thought as well. > 2) An S-R latch at is set by the push button, and cleared by 2nd switch Due to the vintage nature of the device, separating the switches and wiring them this way would require doing some invasive modification of the unit, and it's not mine to modify.  Though, I agree with other comments, this S-R latch idea is a cool one. > > Pat -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============8177375597212561033==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Wed Dec 7 17:29:27 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: reset "pulse" stretcher need Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:28:44 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3294290677611690881==" --===============3294290677611690881== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't suppose there's an extra NC contact on the motor switch/relay? If so, a relay would do, otherwise two relays. m On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 12:40 AM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > This might be a bit off topic, so forgive me if so. > > The issue is a 24VAC motor with one connection to 24VAC and the other > gated via two switches. The first switch is a momentary one and the > second is in parallel and connected to the motor. A long enough > momentary depression on the first switch actuates the electric motor > enough to close the second switch, which then stays closed for 1 > revolution. > > The problem is that a quick enough press and release of the first switch > does not allow the motor to move far enough to close the second switch. > > Given the configuration, my general plan was a small one shot timer > circuit that energized when the switch was initially depressed and then > closed a relay in parallel with the first 2 switches, with a time period > that was 1/10 to 1/2 the time of the motor revolution. a quick close and > release of the first switch would start the timer, which would then > close the parallel switch and then open it a short time later, and then > the motor switch, which would still be closed, could signal the end of > the cycle. > > But, I thought I'd ask around and see if a simpler option was available. > > Jim > > -- > > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > --===============3294290677611690881==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Dec 7 17:47:58 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: reset "pulse" stretcher need Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 11:47:37 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3607612705360921579==" --===============3607612705360921579== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/7/2022 11:28 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > I don't suppose there's an extra NC contact on the motor switch/relay? If > so, a relay would do, otherwise two relays. Sadly, no relay at all. Since I was afraid of being off topic on the list, I hesitated to annoy=20 folks with too much detail, but it's unfair to those helping, so my=20 apologies. The device in question is a 1960's era NuTone 8 note door chime=20 (doorbell). I don't know the exact model, but here are some links to=20 similar units: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DkbOVmMVrSTg http://northsideforyourhome.squarespace.com/nutone-vintage-door-chime/nutone-= lb42-westminster-8-note-chime/ I admit I grew up in a later period and I have lived under a rock for=20 part of my life, so I did not know such cool devices were once sold. If you can excuse the terrible narration, I put a small video together=20 to go over the unit, since I'd never seen such a cool piece of kit=20 before (living under the rock, so to speak). https://youtu.be/HhGMhiAjmRU The motor in question is a 3.6RPM "clock" motor, as far as I can tell.=C2=A0 = It runs the "program", and the front doorbell switch engages the motor=20 momentarily to start the process. I came upon this slice of home ownership by way of my sister and brother=20 in law, who hosted thanksgiving at their "new to them" home, which looks=20 to have not been renovated since it was built in the early 1970's.=C2=A0 This= =20 chime, in addition to an 8 room NuTone intercom system, are installed in=20 the home to this day.=C2=A0 All of us think the system is impressive and must= =20 be kept in the home.=C2=A0 It actually took us a while to find this, as I=20 offhandedly commented we had to knock on the door since the lighted=20 doorbell didn't seem to do anything, which prompted BIL to note they had=20 lived there for a month and had yet to find the door bell in the home=20 (the lighted front button heavily suggested in operating unit=20 somewhere).=C2=A0 We finally found it in the entryway, disguised as a part of= =20 the Intercom system (made by the same company).=C2=A0 We were unsuccessful in= =20 diagnosing the issue in the moment, but I was able to take the unit home=20 to work on it. As the video notes, I was able to determine and address the immediate=20 issue, but I notice the timing issue I wanted to solve it before=20 returning the unit.=C2=A0 The video was mainly to explain to my sister and=20 BIL what had been wrong with the unit. Given the nature of the unit, the switch has to remain a NO SPST, and=20 I'd really prefer to not rewire the switch and disconnect it from the=20 24VAC, since some buttons assume they are being driven with 24VAC.=C2=A0 I=20 also prefer not to make any non removable changes to the unit.=C2=A0 I=20 figured adding something to the terminals is easily removeable and thus=20 fair game. It works as-is, but I can see people tapping the button too fast and=20 then my BIL deciding to replace the unit after annoying friends or=20 missing packages. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============3607612705360921579==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Dec 7 18:07:12 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: reset "pulse" stretcher need Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 10:06:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0341573987429165397==" --===============0341573987429165397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just glue the contactor thingy back onto the motor spindle. Done. Back to vintage computers. On Wed, Dec 7, 2022, 9:47 AM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 12/7/2022 11:28 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > I don't suppose there's an extra NC contact on the motor switch/relay? If > > so, a relay would do, otherwise two relays. > > Sadly, no relay at all. > > Since I was afraid of being off topic on the list, I hesitated to annoy > folks with too much detail, but it's unfair to those helping, so my > apologies. > > The device in question is a 1960's era NuTone 8 note door chime > (doorbell). I don't know the exact model, but here are some links to > similar units: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DkbOVmMVrSTg > > > http://northsideforyourhome.squarespace.com/nutone-vintage-door-chime/nuton= e-lb42-westminster-8-note-chime/ > > I admit I grew up in a later period and I have lived under a rock for > part of my life, so I did not know such cool devices were once sold. > > If you can excuse the terrible narration, I put a small video together > to go over the unit, since I'd never seen such a cool piece of kit > before (living under the rock, so to speak). > > https://youtu.be/HhGMhiAjmRU > > The motor in question is a 3.6RPM "clock" motor, as far as I can tell. > It runs the "program", and the front doorbell switch engages the motor > momentarily to start the process. > > I came upon this slice of home ownership by way of my sister and brother > in law, who hosted thanksgiving at their "new to them" home, which looks > to have not been renovated since it was built in the early 1970's. This > chime, in addition to an 8 room NuTone intercom system, are installed in > the home to this day. All of us think the system is impressive and must > be kept in the home. It actually took us a while to find this, as I > offhandedly commented we had to knock on the door since the lighted > doorbell didn't seem to do anything, which prompted BIL to note they had > lived there for a month and had yet to find the door bell in the home > (the lighted front button heavily suggested in operating unit > somewhere). We finally found it in the entryway, disguised as a part of > the Intercom system (made by the same company). We were unsuccessful in > diagnosing the issue in the moment, but I was able to take the unit home > to work on it. > > As the video notes, I was able to determine and address the immediate > issue, but I notice the timing issue I wanted to solve it before > returning the unit. The video was mainly to explain to my sister and > BIL what had been wrong with the unit. > > Given the nature of the unit, the switch has to remain a NO SPST, and > I'd really prefer to not rewire the switch and disconnect it from the > 24VAC, since some buttons assume they are being driven with 24VAC. I > also prefer not to make any non removable changes to the unit. I > figured adding something to the terminals is easily removeable and thus > fair game. > > It works as-is, but I can see people tapping the button too fast and > then my BIL deciding to replace the unit after annoying friends or > missing packages. > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > --===============0341573987429165397==-- From pat@vax11.net Wed Dec 7 18:12:53 2022 From: Patrick Finnegan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: reset "pulse" stretcher need Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 13:12:18 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2827542645676928894==" --===============2827542645676928894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 12:47 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 12/7/2022 11:28 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > I don't suppose there's an extra NC contact on the motor switch/relay? If > > so, a relay would do, otherwise two relays. > > Sadly, no relay at all. > > Since I was afraid of being off topic on the list, I hesitated to annoy > folks with too much detail, but it's unfair to those helping, so my > apologies. > > The device in question is a 1960's era NuTone 8 note door chime > (doorbell). I don't know the exact model, but here are some links to > similar units: > Given the constraints, I would use a time-delay relay like this, which will hold the relay for X amount of time after the input is released: https://www.zoro.com/dayton-encapsulated-timer-relay-1a-solid-state-5wml4/i/G= 1233267/ That one wants a contact closure for the input it appears, but there are other ones that take AC and DC inputs instead. Pat --===============2827542645676928894==-- From brain@jbrain.com Thu Dec 8 04:46:35 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: reset "pulse" stretcher need Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 22:46:10 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0443770690252093325==" --===============0443770690252093325== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/7/2022 12:06 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Just glue the contactor thingy back onto the motor spindle. Done. Not done, as that's not the concern I am trying to address.  I realize my posting is not fully on topic, but if you are annoyed, just don't respond and delete. Jim --===============0443770690252093325==-- From sieler@allegrosupport.com Thu Dec 8 20:15:38 2022 From: Stan Sieler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] digest problem, starting with #115 Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2022 19:43:01 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4769326932143242041==" --===============4769326932143242041== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Has anyone else noticed that the list server is screwing up digest emails, starting with Volume #115? Prior to #115, each message would start with: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2022 18:49:31 +0000 (WET) From: ... Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ident... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <01SKKMC7X5CG8WYOLI(a)beyondthepale.ie> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN As of 115, that demarcation has disappeared. Here's an example from #119, message #6: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Devin D To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Bcc: Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 12:48:23 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] Guidance on repairing Dec PDP 11 System Greetings, Note that that's *NOT* a "forwarded" message (in the normal CCTALK digest sense), but the start of a new message. Since most people are *EXTREMELY BAD* at trimming the messages they are replying to, the lack of proper message demarcation makes reading the digest quite difficult. Sadly, the listserver doesn't post the version number of the its code with each digest (well, as far as I could see), so I can't definitively tie this to a version change. Can this be reverted/fixed, please? thanks, Stan --===============4769326932143242041==-- From sieler@allegrosupport.com Thu Dec 8 20:16:14 2022 From: Stan Sieler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: digest problem, starting with #115 Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 23:26:17 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3679251173542120370==" --===============3679251173542120370== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dennis, The change to "Plain Text Digests" worked, thanks! Stan --===============3679251173542120370==-- From swperk@earthlink.net Sat Dec 10 18:15:37 2022 From: Stan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Unable to substitute a RaSCSI device for the hard drive in an HP Series 300 workstation Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 10:10:08 -0800 Message-ID: <000001d90cc2$a3b8b440$eb2a1cc0$@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2121592534418935488==" --===============2121592534418935488== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an HP R/382 workstation with a defective SCSI hard drive. I'd prefer t= o replace it with a RaSCSI instead of another ancient and failure-prone rotat= ing hard drive. Unfortunately, I my R/382 can't find the RaSCSI virtual drive= to initialize it. Has anyone successfully used an RaSCSI in an HP workstatio= n? If so, how did you do it? Thanks for your insights! Stan --===============2121592534418935488==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Sat Dec 10 23:27:38 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:27:02 -0600 Message-ID: <20221210232716.AFA4880B66@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <5605095b-5d52-8f93-d7f2-a7ca296f7439@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4085881065370023046==" --===============4085881065370023046== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The exception is that some libraries are starting to collect them with an eye on the future." I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. - John --===============4085881065370023046==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun Dec 11 00:59:45 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 19:59:18 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221210232716.AFA4880B66@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5722641186825308209==" --===============5722641186825308209== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it > was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > them with an eye on the future." > > I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever part with it!!) bill --===============5722641186825308209==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sun Dec 11 01:01:29 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 18:00:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580C3E0B9B0CBE0ADB1A556ED1E9=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2398190485099054808==" --===============2398190485099054808== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > > Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > > about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > > > I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it > > was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > them with an eye on the future." > > > > I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > > > I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > part with it!!) > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't many for sale ... Warner > --===============2398190485099054808==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Sun Dec 11 01:03:23 2022 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:03:04 -0800 Message-ID: <29E21081-369A-44C1-A200-134D7A3006B2@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: <20221210232716.AFA4880B66@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3510095106652871683==" --===============3510095106652871683== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder how accurate the map would be in present times, with all of the merg= ers, takeovers and acquisitions. Don Resor=20 Sent from someone's iPhone > On Dec 10, 2022, at 3:27 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. >=20 > I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it > was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and=20 > trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales=20 > have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The=20 > exception is that some libraries are starting to collect=20 > them with an eye on the future." >=20 > I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. >=20 > - John >=20 --===============3510095106652871683==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Sun Dec 11 01:18:38 2022 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:18:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4996269818006495384==" --===============4996269818006495384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org. Woul= d that reduce its auction value? ;) Don Resor=20 Sent from someone's iPhone > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. >>>=20 >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it >>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect >>> them with an eye on the future." >>>=20 >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever >> part with it!!) >>=20 >=20 > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't many > for sale ... >=20 > Warner >=20 >>=20 >=20 --===============4996269818006495384==-- From shumaker@att.net Sun Dec 11 01:18:58 2022 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:18:27 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221210232716.AFA4880B66@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8181262315463421267==" --===============8181262315463421267== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If there's that much interest, it might be worth taking to a FedEx shop and getting a high quality wide format scan. Steve On 12/10/22 3:27 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it > was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > them with an eye on the future." > > I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > - John > --===============8181262315463421267==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Sun Dec 11 01:24:06 2022 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:23:40 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0869786745345463108==" --===============0869786745345463108== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The one problem with that is how compressed the default scanning rate is set = too. I once asked if a oversized image could be scanned at a high quality scan rat= e of my choice and was told no, it would be scanned at a preset default. =20 Often times it=E2=80=99s the lowest denominator, unless you can do use a walk= up scanner and make all adjustments yourself. Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:18 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFIf there's that much interest, it might be worth taking to a FedEx= shop and getting a high quality wide format scan. >=20 > Steve >=20 >> On 12/10/22 3:27 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay >> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. >>=20 >> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it >> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and >> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales >> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The >> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect >> them with an eye on the future." >>=20 >> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. >>=20 >> - John >>=20 >=20 --===============0869786745345463108==-- From shumaker@att.net Sun Dec 11 01:53:09 2022 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:52:42 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2140302539597719729==" --===============2140302539597719729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've always been allowed to do my own when asked.=C2=A0 Their standard max=20 seems to be=C2=A0 600dpi raw tiff.=C2=A0 But, you are correct - if THEY do it= , you=20 get one of a couple preset functions - and usually pdf or jpg. Steve On 12/10/22 5:23 PM, Don R wrote: > The one problem with that is how compressed the default scanning rate is se= t too. > > I once asked if a oversized image could be scanned at a high quality scan r= ate of my choice and was told no, it would be scanned at a preset default. > > Often times it=E2=80=99s the lowest denominator, unless you can do use a wa= lk up scanner and make all adjustments yourself. > > Don Resor > > Sent from someone's iPhone > >> On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:18 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFIf there's that much interest, it might be worth taking to a FedE= x shop and getting a high quality wide format scan. >> >> Steve >> >>> On 12/10/22 3:27 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. >>> >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it >>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect >>> them with an eye on the future." >>> >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. >>> >>> - John >>> --===============2140302539597719729==-- From nospam212-cctalk@yahoo.com Sun Dec 11 02:35:37 2022 From: David Williams To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 20:35:11 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7931078257968101010==" --===============7931078257968101010== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/10/2022 7:18 PM, Don R via cctalk wrote: > I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org. Wo= uld that reduce its auction value? ;) >=20 > Don Resor It has been posted to archive.org in various different versions. David Williams --===============7931078257968101010==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Sun Dec 11 03:08:19 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 19:07:47 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1362024816982160807==" --===============1362024816982160807== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's an ugly poster imo. Useful info on price in case I ever see one at a garage sale but that's about it :-) On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:35 PM David Williams via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 12/10/2022 7:18 PM, Don R via cctalk wrote: > > I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org. Would > that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > Don Resor > > It has been posted to archive.org in various different versions. > > David Williams > --===============1362024816982160807==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Sun Dec 11 18:38:01 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 18:37:34 +0000 Message-ID: <2045655395.2294976.1670783854166@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3140394770756379920==" --===============3140394770756379920== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price up.Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk = wrote: I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.o= rg.=C2=A0 Would that reduce its auction value? ;) Don Resor=20 Sent from someone's iPhone > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. >>>=20 >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it >>> was popular...=C2=A0 he said "Dealers are collecting them and >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect >>> them with an eye on the future." >>>=20 >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever >> part with it!!) >>=20 >=20 > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't many > for sale ... >=20 > Warner >=20 >>=20 >=20 =20 --===============3140394770756379920==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Dec 11 19:40:25 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 11:39:52 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2045655395.2294976.1670783854166@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2241313435700562175==" --===============2241313435700562175== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, Do you remember the episode? Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > up.Ed# > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk > wrote: I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive= .org. > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > Don Resor > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > >>> > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why > it > >>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > >>> them with an eye on the future." > >>> > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > >>> > >> > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > >> part with it!!) > >> > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > many > > for sale ... > > > > Warner > > > >> > > > > > --===============2241313435700562175==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Sun Dec 11 20:20:16 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 20:19:47 +0000 Message-ID: <1040694280.2301589.1670789987452@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0608066071199528926==" --===============0608066071199528926== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sellam, Yes the episode was there special=C2=A0 held in San Francisco=C2=A0 i= n the pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before=C2=A0 the l= ist member was selling these?=C2=A0 Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham= wrote: Ed, Do you remember the episode? Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price up.Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =C2=A0 On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk wrote:=C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for uplo= ad to archive.org.=C2=A0 Would that reduce its auction value? ;) Don Resor=20 Sent from someone's iPhone > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. >>>=20 >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it >>> was popular...=C2=A0 he said "Dealers are collecting them and >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect >>> them with an eye on the future." >>>=20 >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever >> part with it!!) >>=20 >=20 > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't many > for sale ... >=20 > Warner >=20 >>=20 >=20 =20 --===============0608066071199528926==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Mon Dec 12 00:28:43 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 18:25:53 -0600 Message-ID: <20221212002819.1534482014@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7328884820018458948==" --===============7328884820018458948== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 07:18 PM 12/10/2022, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >If there's that much interest, it might be worth taking to a FedEx shop and = getting a high quality wide format scan. Their web site locator didn't specifically let me find which offices can do large format scanning. It also didn't say what resolution they can do. =20 I have an architect client who'd let me use his blueprint scanner/printer, but I think it's only 300 DPI. - John --===============7328884820018458948==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Mon Dec 12 00:29:07 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 18:28:03 -0600 Message-ID: <20221212002826.1A8C58202E@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <2045655395.2294976.1670783854166@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2968705958170482813==" --===============2968705958170482813== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 12:37 PM 12/11/2022, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. >Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price up.Ed# Again, I wanted the San Francisco episode you mentioned and I don't see this poster there. Can you point to it? - John At 08:48 AM 12/5/2022, John Foust wrote: >At 02:07 AM 12/5/2022, you wrote: >>Watch PAWN stars do America WITH CHUM LEE=C3=82 ETC. . The SF. Episode tha= t ran.=C3=82 That poster was in it I believe=C3=82=20 > >I don't see it. I see a guy with sci-fi posters at 38:00. > >https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3 > >Does anyone have a guess of its date of creation, based on >companies that are there? > >- John --===============2968705958170482813==-- From js@cimmeri.com Mon Dec 12 00:37:34 2022 From: js@cimmeri.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 19:28:04 -0500 Message-ID: <63967594.8000005@cimmeri.com> In-Reply-To: <20221212002819.1534482014@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4295324394714164367==" --===============4295324394714164367== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/11/2022 7:25 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: Their web site locator didn't specifically let me find which offices can do large format scanning. It also didn't say what resolution they can do. I have an architect client who'd let me use his blueprint scanner/printer, but I think it's only 300 DPI. - John 300 dpi is more than sufficient, since the image size itself should be very large. --===============4295324394714164367==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 00:46:18 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 16:45:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1040694280.2301589.1670789987452@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2868818264190589998==" --===============2868818264190589998== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the tip. I found the episode ==> https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon Valley poster never comes up. However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball machines. What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dialogue and annoying personalities. Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd still like to watch that. Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San Francisco in the > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list > member was selling these? Ed# > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > wrote: > Ed, > > Do you remember the episode? > > Sellam > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > up.Ed# > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk > wrote: I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org. > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > Don Resor > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > >>> > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why > it > >>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > >>> them with an eye on the future." > >>> > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > >>> > >> > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > >> part with it!!) > >> > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > many > > for sale ... > > > > Warner > > > >> > > > > > --===============2868818264190589998==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 01:08:11 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 17:07:36 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <82961900.860102.1670806793638@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6602952094510245796==" --===============6602952094510245796== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I watched the correct episode but posted the wrong link. Here is the link to the SF episode ==> https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3 Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:00 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > I said > Sf. You have link for Seattle. Try the sf one! > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:45 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > Thanks for the tip. > > I found the episode ==> > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > > I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon > Valley poster never comes up. > > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball > machines. > > What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dialogue > and annoying personalities. > > Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd > still like to watch that. > > Sellam > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San Francisco in the > > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list > > member was selling these? Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > > wrote: > > Ed, > > > > Do you remember the episode? > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > > up.Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk > > > wrote: I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org. > > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > Don Resor > > > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > >>> > > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why > > it > > >>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > >>> them with an eye on the future." > > >>> > > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > >>> > > >> > > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > > >> part with it!!) > > >> > > > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > > many > > > for sale ... > > > > > > Warner > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > --===============6602952094510245796==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Dec 12 01:20:33 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 17:20:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7096887627910743063==" --===============7096887627910743063== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 11 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for the tip. > I found the episode ==> > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon > Valley poster never comes up. > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball machines. > > What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dialogue > and annoying personalities. An importaant insight. It is "Antiques Roadshow" with "It's worth THAT much??!?" replaced with "Is that all that it's worth?" Some of the ducumentary material that used to be aired on the "History" channel has now been showing up on their spinoff "Story" channel. I like "Modern Marvels", except for the cringe-worthy shot in their credits where they do extreme abuse/misuse of a "Crescent"/adjustable wrench. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7096887627910743063==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon Dec 12 01:27:32 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 01:27:04 +0000 Message-ID: <2102756191.2356742.1670808424275@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0232855489005152091==" --===============0232855489005152091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check Seattle also I watched both same evening...when wa mixed in with art or= grunge rock.posters Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 6:07 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: I watched the correct episode but posted the wrong link. Here is the link to the SF episode =3D=3D> https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3 Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:00 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > I said > Sf. You have link for Seattle.=C2=A0 Try the sf one! > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:45 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > Thanks for the tip. > > I found the episode =3D=3D> > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > > I watched through the entire insidious thing.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, the Sili= con > Valley poster never comes up. > > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball > machines. > > What an obnoxious show.=C2=A0 It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dial= ogue > and annoying personalities. > > Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd > still like to watch that. > > Sellam > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special=C2=A0 held in San Francisco=C2= =A0 in the > > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before=C2=A0 the list > > member was selling these?=C2=A0 Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > > wrote: > > Ed, > > > > Do you remember the episode? > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > > up.Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > >=C2=A0 On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk > > > wrote:=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to a= rchive.org. > > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > Don Resor > > > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > >>> > > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why > > it > > >>> was popular...=C2=A0 he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > >>> them with an eye on the future." > > >>> > > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > >>> > > >> > > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > > >> part with it!!) > > >> > > > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > > many > > > for sale ... > > > > > > Warner > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > =20 --===============0232855489005152091==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Mon Dec 12 01:28:31 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 17:27:58 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8988189581137316017==" --===============8988189581137316017== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 4:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dialogue > and annoying personalities. Sure but most Fox News viewers are unable to tune their TVs into PBS, so they need an alternative :) --===============8988189581137316017==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon Dec 12 01:46:38 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 01:46:08 +0000 Message-ID: <785719893.2347407.1670809568544@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1658756708896399840==" --===============1658756708896399840== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable more than one poster or artwork from the one seller..... only episodes I watc= hed were sf and seattle.Seattle..Haha to be from a seller with more than one = offering... unless they pulled it... I am not going to rewatch them Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 6:07 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: I watched the correct episode but posted the wrong link. Here is the link to the SF episode =3D=3D> https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3 Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:00 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > I said > Sf. You have link for Seattle.=C2=A0 Try the sf one! > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:45 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > Thanks for the tip. > > I found the episode =3D=3D> > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > > I watched through the entire insidious thing.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, the Sili= con > Valley poster never comes up. > > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball > machines. > > What an obnoxious show.=C2=A0 It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dial= ogue > and annoying personalities. > > Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd > still like to watch that. > > Sellam > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special=C2=A0 held in San Francisco=C2= =A0 in the > > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before=C2=A0 the list > > member was selling these?=C2=A0 Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > > wrote: > > Ed, > > > > Do you remember the episode? > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > > up.Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > >=C2=A0 On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk > > > wrote:=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to a= rchive.org. > > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > Don Resor > > > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > >>> > > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why > > it > > >>> was popular...=C2=A0 he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > >>> them with an eye on the future." > > >>> > > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > >>> > > >> > > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > > >> part with it!!) > > >> > > > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > > many > > > for sale ... > > > > > > Warner > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > =20 --===============1658756708896399840==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 01:51:12 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 17:50:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2102756191.2356742.1670808424275@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1122482047286087180==" --===============1122482047286087180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ok Ed. I just skimmed through the Seattle episode and it's not in there either. In watching these two episodes, I've exceeded my television content consumption quota for about 2 years. I'm not doing this anymore. Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:27 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > Check Seattle also I watched both same evening...when wa mixed in with art > or grunge rock.posters > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 6:07 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > I watched the correct episode but posted the wrong link. > > Here is the link to the SF episode ==> > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3 > > Sellam > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:00 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > I said > > Sf. You have link for Seattle. Try the sf one! > > > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:45 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > > wrote: > > Thanks for the tip. > > > > I found the episode ==> > > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > > > > I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon > > Valley poster never comes up. > > > > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball > > machines. > > > > What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad > dialogue > > and annoying personalities. > > > > Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd > > still like to watch that. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > > > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San Francisco in > the > > > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list > > > member was selling these? Ed# > > > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > > > wrote: > > > Ed, > > > > > > Do you remember the episode? > > > > > > Sellam > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > > > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > > > up.Ed# > > > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk< > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > > > > > wrote: I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org > . > > > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > > > Don Resor > > > > > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > > > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to > pay > > > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > > >>> > > > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and > why > > > it > > > >>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > > >>> them with an eye on the future." > > > >>> > > > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > > > >> part with it!!) > > > >> > > > > > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > > > many > > > > for sale ... > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --===============1122482047286087180==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon Dec 12 02:40:15 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 02:39:48 +0000 Message-ID: <602163157.2352439.1670812788015@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4196305630561463106==" --===============4196305630561463106== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are 2each=C2=A0 2 hour=C2=A0 episodes=C2=A0 each skimming might not cat= ch it especially sine the poster is just one urem of a 4 item feature that us= out of 4 of video! videos!=C2=A0 Yea I am calling it quitting this topic too= !ED# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 6:07 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: I watched the correct episode but posted the wrong link. Here is the link to the SF episode =3D=3D> https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3 Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:00 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > I said > Sf. You have link for Seattle.=C2=A0 Try the sf one! > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:45 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > Thanks for the tip. > > I found the episode =3D=3D> > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > > I watched through the entire insidious thing.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, the Sili= con > Valley poster never comes up. > > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball > machines. > > What an obnoxious show.=C2=A0 It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dial= ogue > and annoying personalities. > > Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd > still like to watch that. > > Sellam > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special=C2=A0 held in San Francisco=C2= =A0 in the > > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before=C2=A0 the list > > member was selling these?=C2=A0 Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > > wrote: > > Ed, > > > > Do you remember the episode? > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > > up.Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > >=C2=A0 On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk > > > wrote:=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to a= rchive.org. > > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > Don Resor > > > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > >>> > > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why > > it > > >>> was popular...=C2=A0 he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > >>> them with an eye on the future." > > >>> > > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > >>> > > >> > > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > > >> part with it!!) > > >> > > > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > > many > > > for sale ... > > > > > > Warner > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > =20 --===============4196305630561463106==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 02:47:01 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 18:46:29 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <602163157.2352439.1670812788015@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1396137851059786951==" --===============1396137851059786951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit By "skimmed" I mean between and within each scene, including the interstitials. It's just not in there. Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 6:39 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > There are 2each 2 hour episodes each skimming might not catch it > especially sine the poster is just one urem of a 4 item feature that us out > of 4 of video! videos! Yea I am calling it quitting this topic too! > ED# > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 6:07 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > I watched the correct episode but posted the wrong link. > > Here is the link to the SF episode ==> > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3 > > Sellam > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:00 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > I said > > Sf. You have link for Seattle. Try the sf one! > > > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:45 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > > wrote: > > Thanks for the tip. > > > > I found the episode ==> > > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > > > > I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon > > Valley poster never comes up. > > > > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball > > machines. > > > > What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad > dialogue > > and annoying personalities. > > > > Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd > > still like to watch that. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > > > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San Francisco in > the > > > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list > > > member was selling these? Ed# > > > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > > > wrote: > > > Ed, > > > > > > Do you remember the episode? > > > > > > Sellam > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > > > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > > > up.Ed# > > > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk< > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > > > > > wrote: I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org > . > > > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > > > Don Resor > > > > > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > > > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to > pay > > > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > > >>> > > > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and > why > > > it > > > >>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > > >>> them with an eye on the future." > > > >>> > > > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > > > >> part with it!!) > > > >> > > > > > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > > > many > > > > for sale ... > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --===============1396137851059786951==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Mon Dec 12 03:01:40 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 19:01:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7293221741249149103==" --===============7293221741249149103== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 6:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > It's just not in there. > i couldn't see it either. I figured before someone posted a link they'd have watched it. If it is there, provide the timestamp. --===============7293221741249149103==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Dec 12 03:07:46 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 19:07:25 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6895384200688824347==" --===============6895384200688824347== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Human error, it could have been edited out in some local feeds, to make room for one more "personal injury" vulture commercial. On Sun, 11 Dec 2022, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 6:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> It's just not in there. >> > > i couldn't see it either. I figured before someone posted a link they'd > have watched it. If it is there, provide the timestamp. --===============6895384200688824347==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 07:21:17 2022 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 01:20:40 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1890741120136030222==" --===============1890741120136030222== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I haven't found the episode yet but this is their website with what I assume is the poster. https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-19= 90-price-check. They are asking $799.00. In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3. On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 6:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thanks for the tip. > > I found the episode =3D=3D> > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > > I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon > Valley poster never comes up. > > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball > machines. > > What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dialogue > and annoying personalities. > > Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd > still like to watch that. > > Sellam > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San Francisco in the > > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list > > member was selling these? Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > > wrote: > > Ed, > > > > Do you remember the episode? > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > > up.Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk< > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archi= ve.org. > > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > Don Resor > > > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > >>> > > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why > > it > > >>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > >>> them with an eye on the future." > > >>> > > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > >>> > > >> > > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > > >> part with it!!) > > >> > > > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > > many > > > for sale ... > > > > > > Warner > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > --===============1890741120136030222==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon Dec 12 07:50:02 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 07:49:31 +0000 Message-ID: <533293409.2383671.1670831371044@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4249353451860666533==" --===============4249353451860666533== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes that !s what I saw! But tie that to an episode now=C2=A0 Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 12:20 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: I haven't found the episode yet but this is their website wit= h what I assume is the poster. https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-19= 90-price-check. They are asking $799.00. In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3. On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 6:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thanks for the tip. > > I found the episode =3D=3D> > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > > I watched through the entire insidious thing.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, the Sili= con > Valley poster never comes up. > > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball > machines. > > What an obnoxious show.=C2=A0 It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dial= ogue > and annoying personalities. > > Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd > still like to watch that. > > Sellam > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special=C2=A0 held in San Francisco=C2= =A0 in the > > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before=C2=A0 the list > > member was selling these?=C2=A0 Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > > wrote: > > Ed, > > > > Do you remember the episode? > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > > up.Ed# > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > >=C2=A0 On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk< > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote:=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to a= rchive.org. > > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > Don Resor > > > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay > > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > >>> > > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why > > it > > >>> was popular...=C2=A0 he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > >>> them with an eye on the future." > > >>> > > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > >>> > > >> > > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > > >> part with it!!) > > >> > > > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > > many > > > for sale ... > > > > > > Warner > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > =20 --===============4249353451860666533==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Mon Dec 12 11:59:14 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 05:58:35 -0600 Message-ID: <20221212115851.AABFB8205D@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0405151253364079174==" --===============0405151253364079174== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 01:20 AM 12/12/2022, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >I haven't found the episode yet but this is their website with what I >assume is the poster. >https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-1= 990-price-check. >They are asking $799.00. That is a similar style, but not my poster. Mine was landscape, larger,=20 not branded by Apple. I can't read the copyright in the lower left. My listing is still up: https://www.ebay.com/itm/334649989332 - John --===============0405151253364079174==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 12:13:00 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 07:12:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4803680896283856319==" --===============4803680896283856319== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/12/22 02:20, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > I haven't found the episode yet but this is their website with what I > assume is the poster. > https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-= 1990-price-check. > They are asking $799.00. >=20 > In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3. >=20 Wasn't that the retail price back in the 80's? :-) bill --===============4803680896283856319==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 15:54:10 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 07:53:34 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4111661812603919520==" --===============4111661812603919520== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No wonder the prices on vintage computer stuff has been going through the roof on eBay over the past couple years. Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 11:20 PM John Herron via cctalk wrote: > I haven't found the episode yet but this is their website with what I > assume is the poster. > > https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-= 1990-price-check > . > They are asking $799.00. > > In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3. > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 6:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Thanks for the tip. > > > > I found the episode =3D=3D> > > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > > > > I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon > > Valley poster never comes up. > > > > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball > > machines. > > > > What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad > dialogue > > and annoying personalities. > > > > Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd > > still like to watch that. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > > > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San Francisco in > the > > > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list > > > member was selling these? Ed# > > > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > > > wrote: > > > Ed, > > > > > > Do you remember the episode? > > > > > > Sellam > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > > > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > > > up.Ed# > > > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk< > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > wrote: I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to > archive.org. > > > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > > > Don Resor > > > > > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > > > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to > pay > > > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > > >>> > > > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and > why > > > it > > > >>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > > >>> them with an eye on the future." > > > >>> > > > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > > > >> part with it!!) > > > >> > > > > > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > > > many > > > > for sale ... > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --===============4111661812603919520==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 16:05:06 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 08:04:31 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3207042144152337200==" --===============3207042144152337200== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's an Apple branded Silicon Valley poster, which explains the unbridled hype. There are many variations of this poster, over many years. I doubt just any old Silicon Valley poster would be fawned over as this one has been by the Pawn Stars clowns. Then again, people generally aren't very discerning in regards to stuff like this, so it's possible that they're establishing a floor in old computer poster prices. Get them while they're still cheap, folks. Sellam On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 11:20 PM John Herron via cctalk wrote: > I haven't found the episode yet but this is their website with what I > assume is the poster. > > https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-= 1990-price-check > . > They are asking $799.00. > > In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3. > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 6:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Thanks for the tip. > > > > I found the episode =3D=3D> > > https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4 > > > > I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon > > Valley poster never comes up. > > > > However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark > > 1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games > > and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball > > machines. > > > > What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad > dialogue > > and annoying personalities. > > > > Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd > > still like to watch that. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE wrote: > > > > > Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San Francisco in > the > > > pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list > > > member was selling these? Ed# > > > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham > > > wrote: > > > Ed, > > > > > > Do you remember the episode? > > > > > > Sellam > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice. > > > Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price > > > up.Ed# > > > > > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk< > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > wrote: I=E2=80=99m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to > archive.org. > > > Would that reduce its auction value? ;) > > > > > > Don Resor > > > > > > Sent from someone's iPhone > > > > > > > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to > pay > > > >>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties. > > > >>> > > > >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and > why > > > it > > > >>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and > > > >>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales > > > >>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The > > > >>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect > > > >>> them with an eye on the future." > > > >>> > > > >>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out. > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever > > > >> part with it!!) > > > >> > > > > > > > > Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't > > > many > > > > for sale ... > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --===============3207042144152337200==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 16:06:46 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 08:06:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221212115851.AABFB8205D@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6939394392247721193==" --===============6939394392247721193== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Holy crap, someone actually paid $810 for it? Sellam On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 3:58 AM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 01:20 AM 12/12/2022, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > >I haven't found the episode yet but this is their website with what I > >assume is the poster. > > > https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-= 1990-price-check > . > >They are asking $799.00. > > That is a similar style, but not my poster. Mine was landscape, larger, > not branded by Apple. I can't read the copyright in the lower left. > > My listing is still up: https://www.ebay.com/itm/334649989332 > > - John > > > --===============6939394392247721193==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Dec 12 19:26:44 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:26:22 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580E396275A347EA6328341EDE29=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0968153926149368698==" --===============0968153926149368698== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> I haven't found the episode yet but this is their website with what I >> assume is the poster. >> https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in= -1990-price-check. >> They are asking $799.00. >> In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3. On Mon, 12 Dec 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Wasn't that the retail price back in the 80's? :-) By similar logic, an Apple I should sell for $666.66 That is not a TRS-80 Model 3. That is a TRS-80 model 4. Differences include: [VISIBLE] white/beige instead of gray/grey/"Mercedes Silver" {VISIBLE] Nameplate between drives says "Radio Shack TRS-80 MODEL 4=20 MICROCOMPUTER" (you can get that nameplate on eBay for $12) 80x24 display,=20 revised memory mapping, capable of CP/M; "CP/M Plus" sold at RS. keyboard differences, including control key changes on the motherboard with several variations, (gate array, socket=20 for Z80), rearrangement of connectors, etc.) Bare machine was, indeed, in that price range (I think that it might have=20 been $599), but Radio Shack didn't like selling it that way. This one, and=20 what they usually sold, has two disk drives, and was $1699 (a lot of=20 money for RAM chips and drives) Our college administrators [should all be defenestrated] paid the same=20 price as new model 4's to have Radio Shack upgrade a few dozen model 3's=20 into model 4's (Our student lab-techs were quite capable of swapping=20 drives, and had pleaded to have them purchase BARE model 4's (at the same=20 price), and let the student lab-techs install drives from the model 3's,=20 or buy more drives, thereby doubling the number of available machines)=20 There were people WAITING for a turn to use VisiCalc, Electric Pencil, and=20 Scripsit. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0968153926149368698==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Mon Dec 12 19:36:33 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:30:49 -0600 Message-ID: <20221212193615.2D51182019@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7765314233912853777==" --===============7765314233912853777== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 09:53 AM 12/12/2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >No wonder the prices on vintage computer stuff has been going through the >roof on eBay over the past couple years. If you spent $1,000 on a Commodore 64 system in 1985, that's about $2,800 in today's dollars, courtesy of inflation. A working C-64 system might go for $700 on eBay today? But people were giving them away not long ago. It's the bathtub curve. I have a bunch of old Amiga posters up there now. I thought they'd fetch nice prices but they've seen little interest so far. I have other R(a)RE items I'll list. Who knows how they'll do. I have a NewTek Digiview digitizer that is the populated circuit board. The chips have not been sanded to remove their numbers, nor is it potted in epoxy like all the retail production units. I saw a recent sale of a Digiview-labelled parallel port gender-changer that went for $30. Go figure. I have at least one. At 10:06 AM 12/12/2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >Holy crap, someone actually paid $810 for it? They paid almost another $200 on top for the eBay global shipping program and custom duties, too, as I had said I'll only ship to the USA. - John --===============7765314233912853777==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Dec 12 20:03:11 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:02:45 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221212193615.2D51182019@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4938018871284369884==" --===============4938018871284369884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 12 Dec 2022, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > If you spent $1,000 on a Commodore 64 system in 1985, > that's about $2,800 in today's dollars, courtesy of inflation. > A working C-64 system might go for $700 on eBay today? But people > were giving them away not long ago. It's the bathtub curve. 40 years ago, a row of 16k ram chips (8 or 9 chips) sold for $100 to $300 (Radio Shack and IBM) 40 years ago, a 5 megabyte hard drive sold for $1000 to $3000 Radio Shack charged $500 for an SA-400 floppy drive with case and power supply. you might pay similar prices, but capacity has double about every 18 months (one variation of Moore's Law) --===============4938018871284369884==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 12 20:13:23 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:12:54 -0700 Message-ID: <533240fb-ed82-e0b2-bd49-19b98d7625a7@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3551850724168275655==" --===============3551850724168275655== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2022-12-12 1:02 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 12 Dec 2022, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >> If you spent $1,000 on a Commodore 64 system in 1985, >> that's about $2,800 in today's dollars, courtesy of inflation. >> A working C-64 system might go for $700 on eBay today?  But people >> were giving them away not long ago.  It's the bathtub curve. > > 40 years ago, a row of 16k ram chips (8 or 9 chips) sold for $100 to > $300 (Radio Shack and IBM) > > 40 years ago, a 5 megabyte hard drive sold for $1000 to $3000 > > Radio Shack charged $500 for an SA-400 floppy drive with case and power > supply. > > > you might pay similar prices, but capacity has double about every 18 > months (one variation of Moore's Law) > > How quick, does on forget this list, 1970's memory prices, $8K for 4K. I still think the PDP 11, has the highest mark up on ebay. Ben. --===============3551850724168275655==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 20:27:43 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 15:27:19 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <533240fb-ed82-e0b2-bd49-19b98d7625a7@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7587020870741772666==" --===============7587020870741772666== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/12/22 15:12, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-12-12 1:02 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Mon, 12 Dec 2022, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>> If you spent $1,000 on a Commodore 64 system in 1985, >>> that's about $2,800 in today's dollars, courtesy of inflation. >>> A working C-64 system might go for $700 on eBay today?  But people >>> were giving them away not long ago.  It's the bathtub curve. >> >> 40 years ago, a row of 16k ram chips (8 or 9 chips) sold for $100 to >> $300 (Radio Shack and IBM) >> >> 40 years ago, a 5 megabyte hard drive sold for $1000 to $3000 >> >> Radio Shack charged $500 for an SA-400 floppy drive with case and >> power supply. >> >> >> you might pay similar prices, but capacity has double about every 18 >> months (one variation of Moore's Law) >> >> > How quick, does on forget this list, 1970's memory prices, $8K for 4K. > I still think the PDP 11, has the highest mark up on ebay. Depends on whether your buying or selling. bill --===============7587020870741772666==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 21:31:32 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:30:58 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221212193615.2D51182019@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0264167535324311092==" --===============0264167535324311092== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit $700 for a C64? Egads, you've been watching too much bad cable TV. Nice payday on the poster. I going to speculate that it's specific to the Silicon Valley one because of the recent hype of the TV show. Sellam On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 11:36 AM John Foust via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > At 09:53 AM 12/12/2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > >No wonder the prices on vintage computer stuff has been going through the > >roof on eBay over the past couple years. > > If you spent $1,000 on a Commodore 64 system in 1985, > that's about $2,800 in today's dollars, courtesy of inflation. > > A working C-64 system might go for $700 on eBay today? But people > were giving them away not long ago. It's the bathtub curve. > > I have a bunch of old Amiga posters up there now. I thought they'd > fetch nice prices but they've seen little interest so far. > > I have other R(a)RE items I'll list. Who knows how they'll do. > > I have a NewTek Digiview digitizer that is the populated circuit board. > The chips have not been sanded to remove their numbers, nor is > it potted in epoxy like all the retail production units. > > I saw a recent sale of a Digiview-labelled parallel port gender-changer > that went for $30. Go figure. I have at least one. > > At 10:06 AM 12/12/2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > >Holy crap, someone actually paid $810 for it? > > They paid almost another $200 on top for the eBay global shipping program > and custom duties, too, as I had said I'll only ship to the USA. > > - John > > --===============0264167535324311092==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Mon Dec 12 22:02:44 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 16:02:14 -0600 Message-ID: <20221212220226.3B9A782028@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5783892291018528152==" --===============5783892291018528152== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 03:30 PM 12/12/2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >$700 for a C64? Egads, you've been watching too much bad cable TV. Hmm, not really. My memory was a little off... it was a C-128D system from my warehouse that sold a year ago for almost $700. - John --===============5783892291018528152==-- From me@larbob.org Mon Dec 12 22:05:12 2022 From: Larkin Nickle To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Free Tandem NonStop Himalaya K-Series Cyclone systems Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 21:57:33 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2526532812476868019==" --===============2526532812476868019== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This eBay seller reached out to me and said they had 4 of these things + a di= sk controller that they=E2=80=99re trying to get rid of ASAP, ignore the list= price and message them. I am not affiliated, had just previously messaged th= em inquiring if they had NonStop media for it and they do. I don=E2=80=99t ha= ve the means to go get these things so figured I=E2=80=99d post here so hopef= ully they don=E2=80=99t end up scrapped. [https://www.ebay.com/itm/255471320134](https://www.ebay.com/itm/255471320134= ?mkcid=3D16&mkevt=3D1&mkrid=3D711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=3DbA8yIY8bS72&sssrc=3D2= 349624&ssuid=3DXChl81rOQ3-&var=3D&widget_ver=3Dartemis&media=3DCOPY) --===============2526532812476868019==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 22:37:44 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old Silicon Valley poster Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 14:37:07 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6397a4f1.050a0220.f6108.c9a5SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7607023919262408621==" --===============7607023919262408621== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Commodore 64's generally sell for between $75-$200 these days on eBay. Finding good, working ones (working SID, VIC-II, etc.) with clean cases that don't have broken edges or inner tabs is getting harder. The C128D is a much different story. Those were not produced in nearly the numbers of the C64. I only came across one in all my days of collecting (that used to be in my collection). Sellam On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 2:02 PM John Foust wrote: > At 03:30 PM 12/12/2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > >$700 for a C64? Egads, you've been watching too much bad cable TV. > > Hmm, not really. My memory was a little off... it was a C-128D > system from my warehouse that sold a year ago for almost $700. > > - John > > --===============7607023919262408621==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 12 22:39:20 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free Tandem NonStop Himalaya K-Series Cyclone systems Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 14:38:47 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CECglnxV2-oCcGiagnIm5ke=5FV-8-JUfzLeBleHy1YwXXSHOJn?= =?utf-8?q?3Je8m4Qrm-sFVNxu2va5PkLg7qUhmYuEnpwEY6XaP13XgeYJtaQ7-eeTqQg=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?larbob=2Eorg=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5312490540438570681==" --===============5312490540438570681== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Enjoy this link instead: https://www.ebay.com/itm/255471320134 On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 2:04 PM Larkin Nickle via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > This eBay seller reached out to me and said they had 4 of these things + a > disk controller that they=E2=80=99re trying to get rid of ASAP, ignore the = list > price and message them. I am not affiliated, had just previously messaged > them inquiring if they had NonStop media for it and they do. I don=E2=80=99= t have > the means to go get these things so figured I=E2=80=99d post here so hopefu= lly they > don=E2=80=99t end up scrapped. > > [ > https://www.ebay.com/itm/255471320134](https://www.ebay.com/itm/25547132013= 4?mkcid=3D16&mkevt=3D1&mkrid=3D711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=3DbA8yIY8bS72&sssrc=3D= 2349624&ssuid=3DXChl81rOQ3-&var=3D&widget_ver=3Dartemis&media=3DCOPY) --===============5312490540438570681==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Dec 12 23:40:43 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free Tandem NonStop Himalaya K-Series Cyclone systems Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 16:38:59 -0700 Message-ID: <6ec0beaa-e548-66e5-6a5b-dd6c8dcc139b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3207196317534144395==" --===============3207196317534144395== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/12/22 3:38 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Enjoy this link instead: >=20 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/255471320134 Take a closer look at Rumi's original email. > On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 2:04 PM Larkin Nickle via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> [ >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255471320134](https://www.ebay.com/itm/2554713201= 34?mkcid=3D16&mkevt=3D1&mkrid=3D711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=3DbA8yIY8bS72&sssrc= =3D2349624&ssuid=3DXChl81rOQ3-&var=3D&widget_ver=3Dartemis&media=3DCOPY) Notice that there are actually two links there, one that's trimmed, the=20 one you provided, in addition to the normal one with all the tracking=20 metadata. ;-) --=20 Grant. . . . unix || die --===============3207196317534144395==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Dec 13 00:26:04 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Free Tandem NonStop Himalaya K-Series Cyclone systems Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 16:25:31 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6ec0beaa-e548-66e5-6a5b-dd6c8dcc139b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8217436103373227215==" --===============8217436103373227215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right. Well, the link just did not work for me no matter how I clicked on it, so I extracted the correct bits and re-produced them for everyone's convenience. You Are Welcome. Sellam On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 3:40 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/12/22 3:38 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Enjoy this link instead: > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/255471320134 > > Take a closer look at Rumi's original email. > > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 2:04 PM Larkin Nickle via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> [ > >> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/255471320134](https://www.ebay.com/itm/25547132013= 4?mkcid=3D16&mkevt=3D1&mkrid=3D711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=3DbA8yIY8bS72&sssrc=3D= 2349624&ssuid=3DXChl81rOQ3-&var=3D&widget_ver=3Dartemis&media=3DCOPY) > > Notice that there are actually two links there, one that's trimmed, the > one you provided, in addition to the normal one with all the tracking > metadata. ;-) > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > --===============8217436103373227215==-- From ball.of.john@gmail.com Tue Dec 13 03:56:08 2022 From: John Ball To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Four-Phase Systems Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 19:55:37 -0800 Message-ID: <705C1279A16548AABF311679C0D52E99@Sparks> In-Reply-To: <167086800739.1602.1994856989559221538@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1310795290244191056==" --===============1310795290244191056== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been working on a machine since early October that has seen a very rough life. My inventory found it to be an IV/70 that was upgraded with an IV/90 expansion chassis, an NP80 peripheral controller and a Wangco tape system that I only received the the formatter for. I've been trying to document most of the work so far on the vcfed forum and have a massive payload of board and cable photos & board slot arrangements. There was also boards for additional communication, disk and printing options I did not receive and by backwards chance whie I do not have a terminal display I DO have a keyboard, so that suddenly makes a keyboard-less terminal considerably more desireable to me. I've sent a copy of the images off to Al and to Gil Carrick over at the MITA but if anyone here wants a copy I can send them a compressed file. It's 720mb in total. He has also supplied me with some extra information and offered to loan a few items to assist in testing but he has software and card stacks I currently cannot image and are currently not imaged anywhere else that I have found. At this point I've nailed down power supply and capacitor issues and am still working with cabling and very, very little documentation, so I'm starting to run into problems finding solutions for a number of problems regarding damaged components and the IV/90 interconnect. I don't have the original IV/70 boardset for debugging. Sellam, it was alluded that one point you also had a system. Is that still the case? Does anyone have any additional information that can be grouped together while I'm working to get this machine running again? -John --===============1310795290244191056==-- From jf.secker@gmail.com Tue Dec 13 11:12:07 2022 From: jf.secker@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Searching documentation for Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:11:43 +0000 Message-ID: <167092990324.1586.4247000376757658280@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8247348996500797280==" --===============8247348996500797280== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello List, I have made an implementation of Sytse van Slootens PDP2011 MINC system ( htt= ps://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/pdp-11/minc/ ) on a Terasic DE10 Lite board. There exists documentation for the MINC system, but it is not complete.=20 Schematics and/or user guides for the DEC MINC modules MNCAG and MNCTP are st= ill missing and not to be found in the usual places. Maybe some of the contributors to this list own a MINC system wich contains t= hese modules. If so, they might have the documentation I am looking for and are willing to = share these. Thanks in advance! =20 Jan Secker --===============8247348996500797280==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Dec 13 11:27:10 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Searching documentation for Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:26:38 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167092990324.1586.4247000376757658280@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0903159403505220994==" --===============0903159403505220994== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 11:11 AM jf.secker--- via cctalk wrote: > > Hello List, > > I have made an implementation of Sytse van Slootens PDP2011 MINC system ( h= ttps://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/pdp-11/minc/ ) on a Terasic DE10 Lite boar= d. > There exists documentation for the MINC system, but it is not complete. > Schematics and/or user guides for the DEC MINC modules MNCAG and MNCTP are = still missing and not to be found in the usual places. > Maybe some of the contributors to this list own a MINC system wich contains= these modules. > If so, they might have the documentation I am looking for and are willing t= o share these. I do have a MINC with both those modules, but I don't think I have any documentation on them. I will check though, -tony --===============0903159403505220994==-- From harten@injectstar.de Wed Dec 14 16:28:35 2022 From: Harten To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Beehive Terminal Manual Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 18:21:04 +0200 Message-ID: <1144be565a.harten@injectstar.de> In-Reply-To: <2c86cb9e-1aba-5f6f-3d4d-3cbca3313e98@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8291719093488111530==" --===============8291719093488111530== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In message <2c86cb9e-1aba-5f6f-3d4d-3cbca3313e98(a)sydex.com> Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/8/22 00:13, Harten via cctalk wrote: >> For me, i'm talking about the Topper I. >> >>>From the various terminal manuals i could figure out some special >> keyboard functions, that work on the Topper too. > I haven't checked my own archives yet. If I find something, I'll > forward it on. > --Chuck Hi Chuck! A couple of years ago (2019) you were in contact with somebody on the vcfed.org forum. He had some disks for a Beehive CP/M machine which turned out to be for the Topper. For what model exactly wasn't be able to figured out. Another guy found the "Beehive International Topper Diagnostic System V1.1 Disk" among his Osborne stuff. The disks should be send to you for imageing. I hope this has be done. I'm still looking for the boot disk for the Topper 1. Rolf -- --===============8291719093488111530==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Dec 14 17:50:50 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Beehive Terminal Manual Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 09:50:21 -0800 Message-ID: <55938a9f-60f6-30a8-a9fb-d5b7cd85ce58@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <1144be565a.harten@injectstar.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1852119863809895109==" --===============1852119863809895109== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/14/22 08:21, Harten via cctalk wrote: > Hi Chuck! > > A couple of years ago (2019) you were in contact with somebody on the > vcfed.org forum. He had some disks for a Beehive CP/M machine which turned > out to be for the Topper. For what model exactly wasn't be able to figured > out. > > Another guy found the "Beehive International Topper Diagnostic System V1.1 > Disk" among his Osborne stuff. > > The disks should be send to you for imageing. I hope this has be done. > > I'm still looking for the boot disk for the Topper 1. > > Rolf > Hi Rolf! I don't recall getting any disks to image, but if it slipped my mind, I'll check my own files. All the best, Chuck --===============1852119863809895109==-- From christopher1400@gmail.com Fri Dec 16 01:36:48 2022 From: Christopher Satterfield To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Microinterfaces Corp Run/CPM/Z80 Software? Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 03:30:42 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3365861559863643629==" --===============3365861559863643629== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was wondering if anyone had one of these and/or maybe had the software floppy kicking around? It's an ISA card with a Z80 + RAM to shove into an ISA slot for CP/M compatibility. Of course, information's sparse online and forget software. Here's a picture of said card, https://i.imgur.com/eJh2on5.jpg . -Chris --===============3365861559863643629==-- From echristopherson@gmail.com Fri Dec 16 03:51:34 2022 From: Eric Christopherson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Microinterfaces Corp Run/CPM/Z80 Software? Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 21:51:01 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6310532318838107444==" --===============6310532318838107444== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 7:36 PM Christopher Satterfield via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Was wondering if anyone had one of these and/or maybe had the software > floppy kicking around? It's an ISA card with a Z80 + RAM to shove into an > ISA slot for CP/M compatibility. Of course, information's sparse online and > forget software. > > Here's a picture of said card, https://i.imgur.com/eJh2on5.jpg . > > -Chris > I have one and have imaged the disk that came with it, which is version 7.4 for Z80. I seem to remember reading there was an 8080 version around somewhere to; I've been wanting to find that one. I haven't tried out the card yet. Chris, I'm sending you an offlist email with a link to it. If anyone else wants it, please let me know. -- Eric Christopherson On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 7:36 PM Christopher Satterfield via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Was wondering if anyone had one of these and/or maybe had the software > floppy kicking around? It's an ISA card with a Z80 + RAM to shove into an > ISA slot for CP/M compatibility. Of course, information's sparse online and > forget software. > > Here's a picture of said card, https://i.imgur.com/eJh2on5.jpg . > > -Chris > -- Eric Christopherson --===============6310532318838107444==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Dec 16 16:17:19 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Microinterfaces Corp Run/CPM/Z80 Software? Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 08:16:50 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3488073345290322974==" --===============3488073345290322974== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 15 Dec 2022, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 7:36 PM Christopher Satterfield via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Was wondering if anyone had one of these and/or maybe had the software >> floppy kicking around? It's an ISA card with a Z80 + RAM to shove into an >> ISA slot for CP/M compatibility. Of course, information's sparse online and >> forget software. >> >> Here's a picture of said card, https://i.imgur.com/eJh2on5.jpg . >> >> -Chris >> > > I have one and have imaged the disk that came with it, which is version 7.4 > for Z80. I seem to remember reading there was an 8080 version around > somewhere to; I've been wanting to find that one. I haven't tried out the > card yet. > > Chris, I'm sending you an offlist email with a link to it. If anyone else > wants it, please let me know. Eric (or Chris), can you please upload the disk image along with photos & info about the board to the Internet Archive and to bitsavers? tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============3488073345290322974==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Dec 17 23:51:22 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] pc magazine Nov 1983 Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 17:50:46 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3295006904881888484==" --===============3295006904881888484== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have a November 1983 issue of PC Magazine? I did find one on eBay, but it apparently got lost in transit during recent storms. That issue has been digitally archived https://archive.org/details/PC-Mag-1983-11/ But I was hoping to come across a physical copy. Thanks! --===============3295006904881888484==-- From aaron@aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Dec 18 19:11:28 2022 From: Aaron Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: looking for DQ696 and RQDX3 Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 18:42:40 +0000 Message-ID: <87bko0wn6r.fsf@carbon.rhwyd.co.uk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4123106073190817829==" --===============4123106073190817829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Nigel, Toby Thain is currently without access to email but would like to speak to you about an RQDX3. He asked me to email you on his behalf. Would you be able to call him? Cheers, Aaron Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk writes: > Hi folk, > > I am still looking for a DQ696 to allow me to get ESDI drives going on > both my microVAX and 11/73 since the Webster RQD11 controller failed I > only have the one.  I'd also like to get old of an RQDX3 since I built > a Gesswein emulator and have nothing to test it with :-) > > Any help appreciated, > > Nigel -- https://aaronsplace.co.uk --===============4123106073190817829==-- From Wayne.Smith@warnerbros.com Tue Dec 20 02:22:26 2022 From: "Smith, Wayne" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: pc magazine Nov 1983 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 01:03:35 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167138641218.1602.14511492657332884376@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3901555311923084269==" --===============3901555311923084269== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great article on SCAMP - thanks for posting the link! -W Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 17:50:46 -0600 From: Steve Lewis Subject: [cctalk] pc magazine Nov 1983 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" Does anyone have a November 1983 issue of PC Magazine? I did find one on eBay, but it apparently got lost in transit during recent s= torms. That issue has been digitally archived https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://archive.org/details/PC-Mag-1983-11/__;!!A= Qdq3sQhfUj4q8uUguY!mBen-vS4a6lQgNy4-Vf6zdenz10mWKpQrVZcYspT85LN50FZWvwTwROc07= z-8mnHX4UvEuC7m9DEjlprL4pauoaGDyGK6aIBrQ$=20 But I was hoping to come across a physical copy. Thanks! --===============3901555311923084269==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 04:14:44 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: pc magazine Nov 1983 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 04:14:19 +0000 Message-ID: <852071722.1687361.1671509659569@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CPH7PR02MB90492BEB5922836BD3192C1E85EA9=40PH7PR02MB?= =?utf-8?q?9049=2Enamprd02=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5613233431555223180==" --===============5613233431555223180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes thanks for the link. But no issues of Swank get archived?? IT'S A JOKE (I actually had to verify that IA doesn't accept porn, as far as I can tell a= nyway, as I felt compelled to donate this time. No it doesn't seem consistent= with the mission, but you never know). =20 --===============5613233431555223180==-- From hush@dec.dog Tue Dec 20 17:56:02 2022 From: hush hush To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] unpleasant odor from VT100 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 12:55:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4415268787929020651==" --===============4415268787929020651== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i have a VT100 that is working fine (powers on, navigates setup, saves/restores settings, etc) but has an unpleasant burning/ozone odor coming from the rear of it. i suspect something is running hot but i am not sure what, i do not currently have an IR camera in my hands- working on that. the original power supply has failed and is currently in storage, so the terminal is being powered by an ATX power supply and adapter board for the time being. this eliminates the usual R27 as being the culprit. as best i can tell, the smell is strongest just above the power distribution board, around the neck of the CRT. appreciate any suggestions you might have! --===============4415268787929020651==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 20 18:09:57 2022 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: unpleasant odor from VT100 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 17:57:37 +0000 Message-ID: <01SLQHK13T548WYOLI@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8136883983080315588==" --===============8136883983080315588== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had something similar with a VT220. I didn't get around to investigating it before the flyback transformer failed :-( I can only suggest to run it for a short time with the cover off and the ligh= ts out while looking for any glows / discharges around the flyback transformer, the EHT cable, the EHT connector on the tube and the tube base connector. Regards, Peter Coghlan. Ps: Anyone got a flyback transformer for a VT220? > > i have a VT100 that is working fine (powers on, navigates setup, > saves/restores settings, etc) but has an unpleasant burning/ozone odor > coming from the rear of it. i suspect something is running hot but i am not > sure what, i do not currently have an IR camera in my hands- working on > that. the original power supply has failed and is currently in storage, so > the terminal is being powered by an ATX power supply and adapter board for > the time being. this eliminates the usual R27 as being the culprit. > > as best i can tell, the smell is strongest just above the power > distribution board, around the neck of the CRT. appreciate any suggestions > you might have! --===============8136883983080315588==-- From hush@dec.dog Tue Dec 20 22:06:49 2022 From: hush hush To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: unpleasant odor from VT100 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 17:06:15 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SLQHK13T548WYOLI@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7605025349300904635==" --===============7605025349300904635== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, thank you for the reply! i had to wait a bit for it to get dark enough, but i just checked and i could not see any visible arcing inside the chassis when the terminal is powered on. there is a slight buzzing noise coming from the problem area but i suspect that is normal. i did notice something new and potentially enlightening though, this time when i turned the terminal on i could see several lines stretching diagonally across the screen that were not there before. i also checked the transformer(?) above the power distribution board while the unit was powered on, it does not seem to be overheating. On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 1:09 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I had something similar with a VT220. I didn't get around to > investigating it > before the flyback transformer failed :-( > > I can only suggest to run it for a short time with the cover off and the > lights > out while looking for any glows / discharges around the flyback > transformer, > the EHT cable, the EHT connector on the tube and the tube base connector. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > Ps: Anyone got a flyback transformer for a VT220? > > > > > i have a VT100 that is working fine (powers on, navigates setup, > > saves/restores settings, etc) but has an unpleasant burning/ozone odor > > coming from the rear of it. i suspect something is running hot but i am > not > > sure what, i do not currently have an IR camera in my hands- working on > > that. the original power supply has failed and is currently in storage, > so > > the terminal is being powered by an ATX power supply and adapter board > for > > the time being. this eliminates the usual R27 as being the culprit. > > > > as best i can tell, the smell is strongest just above the power > > distribution board, around the neck of the CRT. appreciate any > suggestions > > you might have! > --===============7605025349300904635==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 22:27:37 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 22:27:13 +0000 Message-ID: <995926679.1996723.1671575233629@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <995926679.1996723.1671575233629.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8683224171581256954==" --===============8683224171581256954== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing discussion, = what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for imstance I have some que= stions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. Something tells me that= doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. --===============8683224171581256954==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Dec 20 22:29:11 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: unpleasant odor from VT100 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 14:28:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7266130812099723990==" --===============7266130812099723990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Might've just been a dead bug that got cooked. Check for a carcass. Sellam On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:06 PM hush hush via cctalk wrote: > Peter, thank you for the reply! i had to wait a bit for it to get dark > enough, but i just checked and i could not see any visible arcing inside > the chassis when the terminal is powered on. there is a slight buzzing > noise coming from the problem area but i suspect that is normal. > > i did notice something new and potentially enlightening though, this time > when i turned the terminal on i could see several lines stretching > diagonally across the screen that were not there before. i also checked the > transformer(?) above the power distribution board while the unit was > powered on, it does not seem to be overheating. > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 1:09 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I had something similar with a VT220. I didn't get around to > > investigating it > > before the flyback transformer failed :-( > > > > I can only suggest to run it for a short time with the cover off and the > > lights > > out while looking for any glows / discharges around the flyback > > transformer, > > the EHT cable, the EHT connector on the tube and the tube base connector. > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > > Ps: Anyone got a flyback transformer for a VT220? > > > > > > > > i have a VT100 that is working fine (powers on, navigates setup, > > > saves/restores settings, etc) but has an unpleasant burning/ozone odor > > > coming from the rear of it. i suspect something is running hot but i am > > not > > > sure what, i do not currently have an IR camera in my hands- working on > > > that. the original power supply has failed and is currently in storage, > > so > > > the terminal is being powered by an ATX power supply and adapter board > > for > > > the time being. this eliminates the usual R27 as being the culprit. > > > > > > as best i can tell, the smell is strongest just above the power > > > distribution board, around the neck of the CRT. appreciate any > > suggestions > > > you might have! > > > --===============7266130812099723990==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Dec 20 22:36:12 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 17:35:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <995926679.1996723.1671575233629@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2816775964228538890==" --===============2816775964228538890== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We used to shun anything newer than and including the IBM PC but time.marches on. You're safe if you discuss systems produced before 1990. After that put an OT in the front of your subject so as not to offend the purists. Personally I think anything built after 1995 is too new for cctalk, but thats just me. There are plenty of facebook groups for win 95/95+. Newer SGI, Amiga and Sun systems seem to be accepted compared to Mac and Wintel of the same year. There is a bias and it's very subjective. Bill Degnan Kennettclassic.com On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 5:27 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing > discussion, what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for imstance I > have some questions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. > Something tells me that doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. > --===============2816775964228538890==-- From mcquiggi@sfu.ca Tue Dec 20 22:41:38 2022 From: Kevin McQuiggin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: unpleasant odor from VT100 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 14:18:19 -0800 Message-ID: <61F74A74-475E-4EBD-96D5-645D4456E370@sfu.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7382532205601994729==" --===============7382532205601994729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Hush: There are dangerous - potentially lethal - voltages inside a CRT display, so = be very, very careful if you don=E2=80=99t have lots of experience with these= devices. Touch the high voltage points by mistake and you are likely dead o= n the spot. The issue probably relates to bad electrolytic capacitors in the high voltage= circuitry, or with the flyback transformer as another reader has commented. Best course of action as it doesn=E2=80=99t sound like you have a ton of high= voltage servicing experience with these devices is to visit an old school TV= repair shop. Techs there can probably figure out what the issue is. Schema= tics are available for VT terminals on bitsavers and similar sites. Not to be alarmist, but BE CAREFUL! Kevin Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 20, 2022, at 14:06, hush hush via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFPeter, thank you for the reply! i had to wait a bit for it to get = dark > enough, but i just checked and i could not see any visible arcing inside > the chassis when the terminal is powered on. there is a slight buzzing > noise coming from the problem area but i suspect that is normal. >=20 > i did notice something new and potentially enlightening though, this time > when i turned the terminal on i could see several lines stretching > diagonally across the screen that were not there before. i also checked the > transformer(?) above the power distribution board while the unit was > powered on, it does not seem to be overheating. >=20 >> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 1:09 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> I had something similar with a VT220. I didn't get around to >> investigating it >> before the flyback transformer failed :-( >>=20 >> I can only suggest to run it for a short time with the cover off and the >> lights >> out while looking for any glows / discharges around the flyback >> transformer, >> the EHT cable, the EHT connector on the tube and the tube base connector. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. >>=20 >> Ps: Anyone got a flyback transformer for a VT220? >>=20 >>>=20 >>> i have a VT100 that is working fine (powers on, navigates setup, >>> saves/restores settings, etc) but has an unpleasant burning/ozone odor >>> coming from the rear of it. i suspect something is running hot but i am >> not >>> sure what, i do not currently have an IR camera in my hands- working on >>> that. the original power supply has failed and is currently in storage, >> so >>> the terminal is being powered by an ATX power supply and adapter board >> for >>> the time being. this eliminates the usual R27 as being the culprit. >>>=20 >>> as best i can tell, the smell is strongest just above the power >>> distribution board, around the neck of the CRT. appreciate any >> suggestions >>> you might have! >>=20 --===============7382532205601994729==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Tue Dec 20 22:46:44 2022 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 22:46:18 +0000 Message-ID: <13f901d914c4$e00e0120$a02a0360$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <995926679.1996723.1671575233629@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5125423460347907749==" --===============5125423460347907749== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, We used to have two lists , cctech for on-topic & cctalk which mirrored ccte= ch and allowed off-topic, but the level off off-topic traffic was low, so if= I understand things we now only have one and it allows both on and off-topic= .. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris via cctalk > Sent: 20 December 2022 22:27 > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com > Subject: [cctalk] what is on topic? >=20 > Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing discussion= , what > exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for imstance I have some questi= ons > pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. Something tells me that > doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. --===============5125423460347907749==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 20 23:09:20 2022 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: unpleasant odor from VT100 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 22:21:59 +0000 Message-ID: <01SLQRTN0NXI8WYOLI@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8557619316761741965==" --===============8557619316761741965== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not familiar with the VT100 - I don't know where particular components are and which ones usually cause problems in that unit. My suggestion was aimed at CRT monitors in general. Hopefully someone who knows the VT100 better will reply with more specific suggestions. If you are getting multi-kilovolt arcing, I expect you would be hearing loud, sharp, cracking noises. I think what you need to look for is more of a very soft purple/blue corona discharge which is hard to spot and probably makes little or no noise. As I don't know the layout of the VT100, it is hard for me to suggest places to look for this other than in very general terms. It could be something like a pinhole in the EHT cable, EHT connector, flyback transformer etc allowing a corona discharge to something nearby that happens to be at a lower potential (which is everything where EHT is concerned). Maybe the plastic / rubber etc insulation of some of these components is breaking down and getting soft? Switch off and wait long enough for everthing to discharge before checking for this sort of stuff with bare fingers. If there is muck / grime / soot on the glass of the tube around the CRT final anode connector, this could be part of the problem. If you try cleaning this off, don't clean off the dark grey / black aquadag coating which is supposed to be there. There will be a gap in the aquadag around the final anode connector where there should just be clear glass. Best to clean with isopropyl alcohol or something similar that will evapourate completely afterwards. Whatever you use, make sure everthing EHT related is fully dry before switching on again. Similarly with muck around the connections to the flyback transformer. If the terminal has been stored in damp conditions, you could be getting internal discharge in the flyback transformer. If you suspect this is the case, someone more familiar with the VT100 may be able to advise how to get the flyback transformer dried out. I think it's unlikely on a small monitor like the VT100 but it might also be worth looking at the scan coils. If there are spark gaps across some of the connections to the tube base, either on the main PCB or on the tube base panel, if there is one, it may be worth peering at those looking for corona discharge. Again, I think this is unlikely on a small monitor though. Someone more familiar with the VT100 may be able to advise if it is safe to disconnect the tube heaters in order to get more darkness to look for corona discharge or if this would be likely do damage to anything. You could turn down the brightness so that there is less stray light from the screen. One more thing, give your eyes time to get accustomed to the darkness when checking for corona discharge. Be careful not to accidentally get too close to the EHT components in the dark though. The diagonal lines may be unrelated, again someone more familiar with the VT100 would have to comment. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > > Peter, thank you for the reply! i had to wait a bit for it to get dark > enough, but i just checked and i could not see any visible arcing inside > the chassis when the terminal is powered on. there is a slight buzzing > noise coming from the problem area but i suspect that is normal. > > i did notice something new and potentially enlightening though, this time > when i turned the terminal on i could see several lines stretching > diagonally across the screen that were not there before. i also checked the > transformer(?) above the power distribution board while the unit was > powered on, it does not seem to be overheating. > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 1:09 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I had something similar with a VT220. I didn't get around to >> investigating it >> before the flyback transformer failed :-( >> >> I can only suggest to run it for a short time with the cover off and the >> lights >> out while looking for any glows / discharges around the flyback >> transformer, >> the EHT cable, the EHT connector on the tube and the tube base connector. >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. >> >> Ps: Anyone got a flyback transformer for a VT220? >> >> > >> > i have a VT100 that is working fine (powers on, navigates setup, >> > saves/restores settings, etc) but has an unpleasant burning/ozone odor >> > coming from the rear of it. i suspect something is running hot but i am >> not >> > sure what, i do not currently have an IR camera in my hands- working on >> > that. the original power supply has failed and is currently in storage, >> so >> > the terminal is being powered by an ATX power supply and adapter board >> for >> > the time being. this eliminates the usual R27 as being the culprit. >> > >> > as best i can tell, the smell is strongest just above the power >> > distribution board, around the neck of the CRT. appreciate any >> suggestions >> > you might have! >> --===============8557619316761741965==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Tue Dec 20 23:42:09 2022 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 15:36:20 -0800 Message-ID: <7744DD48-3AAD-460D-B8EE-A0E2ACB3CA68@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <995926679.1996723.1671575233629@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6487725257834009909==" --===============6487725257834009909== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing discussion= , what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for imstance I have some q= uestions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. Something tells me th= at doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. The original rule, back around =E2=80=9996/97 was anything older than 10 year= s was on-topic. I think the idea behind that is still valid, but these days = a 10 year old system isn=E2=80=99t that much different from a current one. I= think at one point someone suggested it should be shifted to 20+ years. Zane --===============6487725257834009909==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 00:17:50 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 16:17:19 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7744DD48-3AAD-460D-B8EE-A0E2ACB3CA68@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6541486351300035868==" --===============6541486351300035868== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am going to ditto Zane because I basically could've written that same exact message like an infinite monkey on an infinite typewriter. Sellam On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 3:41 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing > discussion, what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for imstance I > have some questions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. > Something tells me that doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. > > The original rule, back around =E2=80=9996/97 was anything older than 10 ye= ars was > on-topic. I think the idea behind that is still valid, but these days a 10 > year old system isn=E2=80=99t that much different from a current one. I th= ink at > one point someone suggested it should be shifted to 20+ years. > > Zane > > > --===============6541486351300035868==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Dec 21 00:44:13 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 16:43:50 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4905499278098047296==" --===============4905499278098047296== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> The original rule, back around =E2=80=9996/97 was anything older than 10 y= ears was >> on-topic. I think the idea behind that is still valid, but these days a 10 >> year old system isn=E2=80=99t that much different from a current one. I t= hink at >> one point someone suggested it should be shifted to 20+ years. On Tue, 20 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I am going to ditto Zane because I basically could've written that same > exact message like an infinite monkey on an infinite typewriter. Many have argued that any specific "rule" would merely result in arguments=20 about the exact boundary. I thought that the "10 year rule", (if it was ever official or=20 acknowledged) advanced every year, so that now it would be about 40 years. If so, then by now, even the Osborne 1 (WCCF 1981), the 5150=20 (August/11/1981), and the Kaypro (WCCF 1982) are all now On-Topic. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4905499278098047296==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 21 00:44:36 2022 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 16:44:13 -0800 Message-ID: <697b20918f1e54ed410d79f61753b3d92a97a9d8.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7819372158697391076==" --===============7819372158697391076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Chris via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing > > discussion, what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for > > imstance I > > have some questions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. > > Something tells me that doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. > > > > The original rule, back around ’96/97 was anything older than 10 > > years was > > on-topic.  I think the idea behind that is still valid, but these > > days a 10 > > year old system isn’t that much different from a current one.  I > > think at > > one point someone suggested it should be shifted to 20+ years. Maybe it should be "Before Moore's Law was over." Processors hit 3 GHz about twenty years ago, and haven't gotten any faster. --===============7819372158697391076==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 00:46:58 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 16:46:26 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <697b20918f1e54ed410d79f61753b3d92a97a9d8.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4015164168153909576==" --===============4015164168153909576== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not true, I observed someone beating that dead horse within the past year. Sellam On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 4:44 PM Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Chris via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing > > > discussion, what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for > > > imstance I > > > have some questions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. > > > Something tells me that doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. > > > > > > The original rule, back around =E2=80=9996/97 was anything older than 10 > > > years was > > > on-topic. I think the idea behind that is still valid, but these > > > days a 10 > > > year old system isn=E2=80=99t that much different from a current one. I > > > think at > > > one point someone suggested it should be shifted to 20+ years. > > Maybe it should be "Before Moore's Law was over." Processors hit 3 GHz > about twenty years ago, and haven't gotten any faster. > > > --===============4015164168153909576==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Dec 21 00:50:56 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 16:50:35 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6720478927071450351==" --===============6720478927071450351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 20 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Not true, I observed someone beating that dead horse within the past year. Howzbout: INTERESTING, and olde enough to not be like the current stuff, I'd like to think that OQO might qualify, but not anything Dell or Gateway. --===============6720478927071450351==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Dec 21 01:06:22 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Digests? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 20:05:51 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1708416806084547220==" --===============1708416806084547220== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why have I started receiving virtually unreadable digests all of a sudden? I have made no changes to my preferences. bill --===============1708416806084547220==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 01:43:11 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 17:42:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3746150075802017315==" --===============3746150075802017315== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would suggest anything that introduced a new feature that was somewhat significant. So that fits the OQO because it was (at least one of) the first handheld PCs that could run Windows XP. But as someone else pointed out, there are a zillion PC forums where any question relating to any PC or Mac from the past 15-20 years can be answered. And then there's the simple web search for the same. Sellam On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 4:50 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 20 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Not true, I observed someone beating that dead horse within the past > year. > > > Howzbout: INTERESTING, and olde enough to not be like the current stuff, > > I'd like to think that OQO might qualify, but not anything Dell or > Gateway. > --===============3746150075802017315==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Dec 21 02:13:28 2022 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 21:13:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7744DD48-3AAD-460D-B8EE-A0E2ACB3CA68@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5622034832533248589==" --===============5622034832533248589== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 20 Dec 2022, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Chris via cctalk wro= te: >> >> Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing discussio= n, what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for imstance I have some = questions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. Something tells me t= hat doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. > > The original rule, back around ?96/97 was anything older than 10 years was = on-topic. I think the idea behind that is still valid, but these days a 10 y= ear old system isn?t that much different from a current one. I think at one = point someone suggested it should be shifted to 20+ years. I'm going to play the old fogey card and suggest that we should use a=20 specific year as a cutoff, rather than a floating limit. Something like 1986,= =20 or possibly a little later. As has been mentioned, there are many other=20 outlets for discussions about Windoze machines and i386+ systems. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============5622034832533248589==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Dec 21 02:25:52 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 18:25:21 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5964340627799812172==" --===============5964340627799812172== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 6:13 PM Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > I'm going to play the old fogey card and suggest that we should use a > specific year as a cutoff, rather than a floating limit. Something like > 1986, > or possibly a little later. As has been mentioned, there are many other > outlets for discussions about Windoze machines and i386+ systems. > When was the Transputer discontinued? I know I have a ISA card from 1989. > --===============5964340627799812172==-- From doug@doughq.com Wed Dec 21 02:45:46 2022 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 13:36:20 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5993273658628126357==" --===============5993273658628126357== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree that we should probably use the intent of a specific era. I believe that the world certainly dropped out of my personal definition of 'Classic' when the 386 came in. I have an interest in things up to and including 80186, and they certainly are not run of the mill. Just my thoughts. Doug Jackson On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 at 13:13, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 20 Dec 2022, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Chris via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing > discussion, what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for imstance I > have some questions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. > Something tells me that doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. > > > > The original rule, back around ?96/97 was anything older than 10 years > was on-topic. I think the idea behind that is still valid, but these days > a 10 year old system isn?t that much different from a current one. I think > at one point someone suggested it should be shifted to 20+ years. > > I'm going to play the old fogey card and suggest that we should use a > specific year as a cutoff, rather than a floating limit. Something like > 1986, > or possibly a little later. As has been mentioned, there are many other > outlets for discussions about Windoze machines and i386+ systems. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > --===============5993273658628126357==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 02:52:24 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 02:51:56 +0000 Message-ID: <488869872.1832770.1671591116714@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6599474284565769189==" --===============6599474284565769189== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity these days, I has tho= ught the suggestion about relaxing the rules might need discussing. I know there are people still using Windows 2003 puters, or a near equivalent= based on XP? But that's entirely irrelevant, as I'm quite sure you could fin= d someone out there still utilizing an 8088/286/386. Of course that's the dis= cretion of the sysop. As it stands there's at least 1 opinion for every ahole= attached to the person who types on this board. Whateber. The way I see it d= ang obsolete shouldd be open for discussion. =20 --===============6599474284565769189==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Dec 21 03:05:21 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 19:04:56 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <488869872.1832770.1671591116714@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1596723491306457068==" --===============1596723491306457068== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Well there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity these days, I has > thought the suggestion about relaxing the rules might need discussing. > I know there are people still using Windows 2003 puters, or a near > equivalent based on XP? But that's entirely irrelevant, as I'm quite > sure you could find someone out there still utilizing an 8088/286/386. > Of course that's the discretion of the sysop. As it stands there's at > least 1 opinion for every ahole attached to the person who types on this > board. Whateber. The way I see it dang obsolete shouldd be open for > discussion. To summarize: "On-Topic" == "Dang obsolete" --===============1596723491306457068==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Wed Dec 21 03:22:32 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 19:22:07 -0800 Message-ID: <35810efe-e287-2dd0-27b5-b235071cfc65@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9039357064681627604==" --===============9039357064681627604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I agree that we should probably use the intent of a specific era. >=20 > I believe that the world certainly dropped out of my personal definition of > 'Classic' when the 386 came in. >=20 > I have an interest in things up to and including 80186, and they certainly > are not run of the mill. Something like the HP LX series or even the portable ZEOS DOS palmtops would probably be on-topic. The OmniGo 100LX behind me has a Vadem equivalent of an 80186. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Beware the Lollipop of Mediocrity: lick it once, and you suck forever! ---= -- --===============9039357064681627604==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 03:24:09 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 22:23:30 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7143490596848067803==" --===============7143490596848067803== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone here been to the Kennett Classic museum? There is what was originally called the "post vintage" room that has stuff like NeXT, Sun, SGI, PS/2's, Windows 3.1, 386/486 laptops, GridPad/IBM Thinkpad, Go Pad, DEC Alphas workstations, etc. Now it's referred to as the "32-bit GUI workstation collection". I learned real fast that when highschool kids come to the museum they don't even know what a Commodore 64 was, not to mention anything older. So each era has it's vintage-of-that-era things. It's not our place because we're mostly experts in the older vintages to really have as much of a say in what is vintage for the late 90's early 2000's. Would it really be PCs, or is this the era of smart phones, IP networking dial up ISP, etc. It's not time yet for the XP/Win server 2003, not yet. But save these things and your ipADs and google glasses, and your blackberries and palm handhelds. Their day is coming in a few years. We have to avoid thinking it's just the next PC as "vintage" - the day of the desktop is kind of done except for gaming machines, as far as sales go. b On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 10:05 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > Well there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity these days, I has > > thought the suggestion about relaxing the rules might need discussing. > > I know there are people still using Windows 2003 puters, or a near > > equivalent based on XP? But that's entirely irrelevant, as I'm quite > > sure you could find someone out there still utilizing an 8088/286/386. > > Of course that's the discretion of the sysop. As it stands there's at > > least 1 opinion for every ahole attached to the person who types on this > > board. Whateber. The way I see it dang obsolete shouldd be open for > > discussion. > > To summarize: "On-Topic" == "Dang obsolete" > > > --===============7143490596848067803==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Wed Dec 21 03:47:02 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] BSD 2.11 on the DEC PRO Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 19:46:38 -0800 Message-ID: <789e5a6f-7653-43bf-6d51-5fa41fba39a3@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0693409475368382969==" --===============0693409475368382969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My PRO 380 runs Venix/PRO. Which is cool, but someone sent me this: https://www.frijid.net/blog/index.php/2015/06/07/182/ Allegedly this gets BSD 2.9 on, at least, the PRO 350. I'm particularly interested because it supports networking. Anyone tried this on their PRO? Or better still, an actual 380? --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Male Macintosh geeks are so predictable. All we think about is X. --------= -- --===============0693409475368382969==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 03:49:55 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 03:49:28 +0000 Message-ID: <1364627321.2072203.1671594568114@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7255156412468662707==" --===============7255156412468662707== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Windows 2003 and XP is about as obsolete now as the IBM PC was in 1995. Prob= ably more so. XP is popular on Vogons but I'm sure considerably less then 5% = of computers actually host it. There's also the issue of beating a dead horse. There will always and forever= (and forever...) be some esoteric issue to discuss about some bizzare and mo= stly unknown 8 bit system that 3 people on the whole of planet earth own (now= not to brag, but chances are there are a dozen or less Northstar Dimension o= wners (never mind users) out there. And I'm proud to be 1). Who am I going to= discuss that with?? And a larger issue is what? An even larger issue is why?= Well I got plans ... Lists of this sort are about tech and used by people who love it. Windows 11 = is not germain to these conversations. But what about, and I'm just putting t= his out there, making pre UEFI shtuff -on-? I don't even know how I personall= y feel about such a delineation. But the suggestion is there. Nostalgic weird= os like older tech. Yes often dang old. Now a Thinkpad T60p doesn't exactly s= eem dang old. But it's pretty much dang obsolete (can't remember what sort of= firmware it has but the processor, though 64 bit, is part of that hazy quasi= transitional grouping that had more similarities to a 32 bit chip). On T= uesday, December 20, 2022, 10:05:06 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Well there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity these days, I has=20 > thought the suggestion about relaxing the rules might need discussing. > I know there are people still using Windows 2003 puters, or a near=20 > equivalent based on XP? But that's entirely irrelevant, as I'm quite=20 > sure you could find someone out there still utilizing an 8088/286/386.=20 > Of course that's the discretion of the sysop. As it stands there's at=20 > least 1 opinion for every ahole attached to the person who types on this=20 > board. Whateber. The way I see it dang obsolete shouldd be open for=20 > discussion. To summarize:=C2=A0 "On-Topic" =3D=3D "Dang obsolete" =20 --===============7255156412468662707==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 03:53:39 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 03:53:09 +0000 Message-ID: <1161951367.2068640.1671594789201@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <35810efe-e287-2dd0-27b5-b235071cfc65@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5356188138412927480==" --===============5356188138412927480== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vadem made 186 clones? They made dense glue for V40 based Ampro sbc's. Never= knew they made cpus. Not saying they didn't, but if so that's a shocker to m= e. On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 10:22:18 PM EST, Cameron Kaiser via cctal= k wrote: =20 =20 > I agree that we should probably use the intent of a specific era. >=20 > I believe that the world certainly dropped out of my personal definition of > 'Classic' when the 386 came in. >=20 > I have an interest in things up to and including 80186, and they certainly > are not run of the mill. Something like the HP LX series or even the portable ZEOS DOS palmtops would probably be on-topic. The OmniGo 100LX behind me has a Vadem equivalent of an 80186. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- =C2=A0 Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)flood= gap.com -- Beware the Lollipop of Mediocrity: lick it once, and you suck forever! ---= -- =20 --===============5356188138412927480==-- From doug@doughq.com Wed Dec 21 04:02:46 2022 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 15:02:11 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1161951367.2068640.1671594789201@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4005368944417830070==" --===============4005368944417830070== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Off topic - but interesting. I had a very frustrating experience with an 80188 made by Innovasic. The SBC188 BIOS would halt if the chip was used because its power on behaviour was different to the Intel 80188. http://www.vk1zdj.net/?p=551 That's *many* hours of my life I won't get back. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 at 14:53, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Vadem made 186 clones? They made dense glue for V40 based Ampro sbc's. > Never knew they made cpus. Not saying they didn't, but if so that's a > shocker to me. > > > On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 10:22:18 PM EST, Cameron Kaiser via > cctalk wrote: > > > I agree that we should probably use the intent of a specific era. > > > > I believe that the world certainly dropped out of my personal definition > of > > 'Classic' when the 386 came in. > > > > I have an interest in things up to and including 80186, and they > certainly > > are not run of the mill. > > Something like the HP LX series or even the portable ZEOS DOS palmtops > would > probably be on-topic. The OmniGo 100LX behind me has a Vadem equivalent of > an > 80186. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser(a)floodgap.com > -- Beware the Lollipop of Mediocrity: lick it once, and you suck forever! > ----- > > --===============4005368944417830070==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Wed Dec 21 04:04:51 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 20:04:24 -0800 Message-ID: <915ca8e1-5581-f7a9-ce90-4d31cce42a32@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: <1161951367.2068640.1671594789201@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6323300720890064607==" --===============6323300720890064607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Something like the HP LX series or even the portable ZEOS DOS palmtops would probably be on-topic. The OmniGo 100LX behind me has a Vadem equivalent of an 80186. > Vadem made 186 clones? They made dense glue for V40 based Ampro sbc's. Nev= er knew they made cpus. Not saying they didn't, but if so that's a shocker to= me. It has a VG230 in it which apparently is a NEC V30HL variant. My mistake, it's an 8086 clone, not an 80186. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- NEWS ITEM: Energizer Bunny arrested, charged with battery ----------------= -- --===============6323300720890064607==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Dec 21 04:11:40 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 20:11:20 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1364627321.2072203.1671594568114@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4191481718050644102==" --===============4191481718050644102== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was not disagreeing with you. I thought that "dang obsolete" was an amusing wording; and applies to most=20 of my interests. These days, doing web browsing, email, and transcoding video, I use a=20 bunch of XP and Win7 machines, but my heart, and nostalgia, are with older=20 stuff. in the process of having to downsize considerably, I gave away my N*=20 Horizon, my TRS80s, and most of everything else. Soon, I will pack up my Poqets and OQOs. I am soon going to give the rest of my Leicas and large format cameras to=20 an old friend. I doubt that any "definition" could really be adequate to pin down the=20 topics to the fun stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Windows 2003 and XP is about as obsolete now as the IBM PC was in 1995. Pro= bably more so. XP is popular on Vogons but I'm sure considerably less then 5%= of computers actually host it. > > There's also the issue of beating a dead horse. There will always and forev= er (and forever...) be some esoteric issue to discuss about some bizzare and = mostly unknown 8 bit system that 3 people on the whole of planet earth own (n= ow not to brag, but chances are there are a dozen or less Northstar Dimension= owners (never mind users) out there. And I'm proud to be 1). Who am I going = to discuss that with?? And a larger issue is what? An even larger issue is wh= y? Well I got plans ... > > Lists of this sort are about tech and used by people who love it. Windows 1= 1 is not germain to these conversations. But what about, and I'm just putting= this out there, making pre UEFI shtuff -on-? I don't even know how I persona= lly feel about such a delineation. But the suggestion is there. Nostalgic wei= rdos like older tech. Yes often dang old. Now a Thinkpad T60p doesn't exactly= seem dang old. But it's pretty much dang obsolete (can't remember what sort = of firmware it has but the processor, though 64 bit, is part of that hazy qua= si transitional grouping that had more similarities to a 32 bit chip). On= Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 10:05:06 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> Well there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity these days, I has >> thought the suggestion about relaxing the rules might need discussing. >> I know there are people still using Windows 2003 puters, or a near >> equivalent based on XP? But that's entirely irrelevant, as I'm quite >> sure you could find someone out there still utilizing an 8088/286/386. >> Of course that's the discretion of the sysop. As it stands there's at >> least 1 opinion for every ahole attached to the person who types on this >> board. Whateber. The way I see it dang obsolete shouldd be open for >> discussion. > > To summarize:=C2=A0 "On-Topic" =3D=3D "Dang obsolete" > > --===============4191481718050644102==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 04:12:21 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 04:11:57 +0000 Message-ID: <860484070.1851302.1671595917720@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5068033108660536261==" --===============5068033108660536261== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think I've ever even heard of Innovasic. I guess given the degree to which it was utilzed, the 80188/80186 and their v= ariants would naturally have many manufacturers.=20 And I say this with all the warmth and cuddliness I can muster, the suggestio= n that the 80188 is off topic is just plain nuts. Sbc's and particularly 8018= 8/80186 based sbc's are a huge and fascinating topic.=20 I have to conclude there are spies embedded on this list who have been workin= g to take it down, by suggesting early pc's should be considered off topic.=20 On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:02:33 PM EST, Doug Jackson via cctalk = wrote: =20 =20 Off topic - but interesting. I had a very frustrating experience with an 80188 made by Innovasic. The SBC188 BIOS would halt if the chip was used because its power on behaviour was different to the Intel 80188. http://www.vk1zdj.net/?p=3D551 That's *many* hours of my life I won't get back. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 at 14:53, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 Vadem made 186 clones? They made dense glue for V40 based Ampro sbc's. > Never knew they made cpus. Not saying they didn't, but if so that's a > shocker to me. > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 10:22:18 PM EST, Cameron= Kaiser via > cctalk wrote: > >=C2=A0 > I agree that we should probably use the intent of a specific era. > > > > I believe that the world certainly dropped out of my personal definition > of > > 'Classic' when the 386 came in. > > > > I have an interest in things up to and including 80186, and they > certainly > > are not run of the mill. > > Something like the HP LX series or even the portable ZEOS DOS palmtops > would > probably be on-topic. The OmniGo 100LX behind me has a Vadem equivalent of > an > 80186. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- >=C2=A0 Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser(a)floodgap.com > -- Beware the Lollipop of Mediocrity: lick it once, and you suck forever! > ----- > > =20 --===============5068033108660536261==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 04:17:12 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 04:16:47 +0000 Message-ID: <1865858764.1845478.1671596207023@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <915ca8e1-5581-f7a9-ce90-4d31cce42a32@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0152806964897877895==" --===============0152806964897877895== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The point is Vadem made cpu's and I was unaware of that. The distinction between the v30/v40/80188/80186 is blurry. Non intel or nec v= ersions perhaps habe additional idiosyncrasies. On Tuesday, December 20, = 2022, 11:04:36 PM EST, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wr= ote: =20 =20 > > Something like the HP LX series or even the portable ZEOS DOS palmtops would probably be on-topic. The OmniGo 100LX behind me has a Vadem equivalent of an 80186. >=C2=A0 Vadem made 186 clones? They made dense glue for V40 based Ampro sbc's= . Never knew they made cpus. Not saying they didn't, but if so that's a shock= er to me. It has a VG230 in it which apparently is a NEC V30HL variant. My mistake, it's an 8086 clone, not an 80186. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- =C2=A0 Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)flood= gap.com -- NEWS ITEM: Energizer Bunny arrested, charged with battery ----------------= -- =20 --===============0152806964897877895==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Dec 21 04:20:21 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BSD 2.11 on the DEC PRO Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 23:19:58 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <789e5a6f-7653-43bf-6d51-5fa41fba39a3@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3296624119995075743==" --===============3296624119995075743== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hm. I've got a DECNA in my 380 and a Gotek floppy emulator so 21=20 floppies is not a terror (RX50's are not so reliable these days anyway).=20 Only big problem is that I would have to use either the RD50 or RD51=20 drives, would much prefer to use RD53's instead for some space... Still, interesting. If they have the source for the RD drive controller=20 and the RX50 controller it might port to 2.11..... On 12/20/2022 10:46 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > My PRO 380 runs Venix/PRO. Which is cool, but someone sent me this: >=20 > https://www.frijid.net/blog/index.php/2015/06/07/182/ >=20 > Allegedly this gets BSD 2.9 on, at least, the PRO 350. I'm particularly > interested because it supports networking. Anyone tried this on their PRO? = Or > better still, an actual 380? >=20 --===============3296624119995075743==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 04:28:59 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 04:28:35 +0000 Message-ID: <455704275.2072503.1671596915698@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5764250282534231771==" --===============5764250282534231771== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:11:27 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: I was not disagreeing with you. Ok. Wonderful. I guess we've sufficiently established that from henceforth an= ything dang-old is totally on topic. Any detractors? :) Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly entirely u= seless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of processing h.p. to = be efficient. And no transcodimg is necessary. Certainly not an expert. But I= should think older hardware would be very very slow. =20 --===============5764250282534231771==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Dec 21 04:34:13 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 20:33:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <455704275.2072503.1671596915698@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4791402696811019996==" --===============4791402696811019996== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Traffic on the list is so low I'm not seeing the issue. I'm also not seeing complaints about threads being off topic. Seems like solution seeking a problem. On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 8:28 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:11:27 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I was not disagreeing with you. > > > Ok. Wonderful. I guess we've sufficiently established that from henceforth > anything dang-old is totally on topic. Any detractors? :) > > Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly > entirely useless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of > processing h.p. to be efficient. And no transcodimg is necessary. Certainly > not an expert. But I should think older hardware would be very very slow. --===============4791402696811019996==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 04:44:43 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 23:44:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5867870655472303722==" --===============5867870655472303722== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Agreed (FWIW ;-) Admittedly there are many alternate sources out there for information (and misinformation) about relatively 'modern' systems, but there's also a lot of informed, reliable and, dare I say, mature folks here with much to contribute; it'd be a shame not to take advantage of their experience, regardless of the age of the issue in question. m On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 11:33 PM Tony Jones via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Traffic on the list is so low I'm not seeing the issue. I'm also not > seeing complaints about threads being off topic. Seems like solution > seeking a problem. > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 8:28 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:11:27 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > I was not disagreeing with you. > > > > > > Ok. Wonderful. I guess we've sufficiently established that from > henceforth > > anything dang-old is totally on topic. Any detractors? :) > > > > Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly > > entirely useless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of > > processing h.p. to be efficient. And no transcodimg is necessary. > Certainly > > not an expert. But I should think older hardware would be very very slow. > --===============5867870655472303722==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 04:46:21 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 20:45:46 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0264724707528651354==" --===============0264724707528651354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is really funny. Do you all realize how many times we've gone over this over the past 25 years? As Bill poignantly explained, maybe instead of trying to establish a cut-off date, we instead think outside of the box: If enough people object to a topic, it stops. Let's call it three objections. If three different people reply to a post objecting to it then whoosh, off it goes into the bit bucket, never to be spoken of again. Example: Someone A: Hey, is it OK if I talk about Windows 11? Someone B: Objection. Someone C: Objection. Someone D: Objection. Someone A: Ok, sorry [bashfully skulks away] Food for thought. Sellam On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 8:33 PM Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > Traffic on the list is so low I'm not seeing the issue. I'm also not > seeing complaints about threads being off topic. Seems like solution > seeking a problem. > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 8:28 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:11:27 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > I was not disagreeing with you. > > > > > > Ok. Wonderful. I guess we've sufficiently established that from > henceforth > > anything dang-old is totally on topic. Any detractors? :) > > > > Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly > > entirely useless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of > > processing h.p. to be efficient. And no transcodimg is necessary. > Certainly > > not an expert. But I should think older hardware would be very very slow. > --===============0264724707528651354==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Dec 21 04:55:24 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 20:55:01 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <455704275.2072503.1671596915698@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4321968355580235702==" --===============4321968355580235702== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly > entirely useless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of > processing h.p. to be efficient. And no transcodimg is necessary. > Certainly not an expert. But I should think older hardware would be very > very slow. Nothing fancy, and hardly ever doing any editing. Slow is OK Mostly just making MP4s from DVDs, for the added convenience of access, and eliminating risk of damaging the DVD. Multi-terabyte drives hold an amazing amount. And, yes, I do own and keep the DVDs. Doctor Who, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, One Step Beyond, Blake's 7, Red Dwarf, britcoms, movies, mostly comedy, old SciFi, and classics currently a totaal of about 4TB of MP4s. My volume is such that I just batch process; I rip using ANYDVD, usually on an XP machine, and then use Handbrake on Win7 to make MP4s. I start up a queue, and walk away. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4321968355580235702==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 04:58:24 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 04:57:56 +0000 Message-ID: <1663258325.1447846.1671598676531@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5804005375187913210==" --===============5804005375187913210== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nah. The nays would habe to outnumber the yays. You can always find 3 malcon= tents who hate everything. But that sucks as well because you get involved wi= th runoffs. And subsequently voter fraud, hangimg/dimpled/pregnant chads, sto= rming of the capitol server. Holey moley let's end this topic now. Voting doesn't work anyway when you live imside a caliphate. We have yet to h= ear from the Big Kahuna. On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:46:06 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctal= k wrote: =20 =20 This is really funny.=C2=A0 Do you all realize how many times we've gone over this over the past 25 years? As Bill poignantly explained, maybe instead of trying to establish a cut-off date, we instead think outside of the box: If enough people object to a topic, it stops.=C2=A0 Let's call it three objections.=C2=A0 If three different people reply to a post objecting to it t= hen whoosh, off it goes into the bit bucket, never to be spoken of again. Example: Someone A: Hey, is it OK if I talk about Windows 11? Someone B: Objection. Someone C: Objection. Someone D: Objection. Someone A: Ok, sorry [bashfully skulks away] Food for thought. Sellam On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 8:33 PM Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > Traffic on the list is so low I'm not seeing the issue.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I'm al= so not > seeing complaints about threads being off topic.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Seems like so= lution > seeking a problem. > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 8:28 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > >=C2=A0 On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:11:27 PM EST, Fred Cisin via ccta= lk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > I was not disagreeing with you. > > > > > > Ok. Wonderful. I guess we've sufficiently established that from > henceforth > > anything dang-old is totally on topic. Any detractors? :) > > > > Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly > > entirely useless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of > > processing h.p. to be efficient. And no transcodimg is necessary. > Certainly > > not an expert. But I should think older hardware would be very very slow. > =20 --===============5804005375187913210==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Wed Dec 21 05:10:15 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 22:09:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1663258325.1447846.1671598676531@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8301747428949100428==" --===============8301747428949100428== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So long as we don't talk about what is or isn't allowed, the list traffic is low enough not to need specific rules... Except maybe not talking about what is vintage. :p Warner Ps :p is retro emoji :). On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 9:58 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Nah. The nays would habe to outnumber the yays. You can always find 3 > malcontents who hate everything. But that sucks as well because you get > involved with runoffs. And subsequently voter fraud, > hangimg/dimpled/pregnant chads, storming of the capitol server. Holey moley > let's end this topic now. > > Voting doesn't work anyway when you live imside a caliphate. We have yet > to hear from the Big Kahuna. > On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:46:06 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via > cctalk wrote: > > This is really funny. Do you all realize how many times we've gone over > this over the past 25 years? > > As Bill poignantly explained, maybe instead of trying to establish a > cut-off date, we instead think outside of the box: > > If enough people object to a topic, it stops. Let's call it three > objections. If three different people reply to a post objecting to it then > whoosh, off it goes into the bit bucket, never to be spoken of again. > > Example: > > Someone A: Hey, is it OK if I talk about Windows 11? > Someone B: Objection. > Someone C: Objection. > Someone D: Objection. > Someone A: Ok, sorry [bashfully skulks away] > > Food for thought. > > Sellam > > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 8:33 PM Tony Jones via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Traffic on the list is so low I'm not seeing the issue. I'm also not > > seeing complaints about threads being off topic. Seems like solution > > seeking a problem. > > > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 8:28 PM Chris via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:11:27 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk > < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I was not disagreeing with you. > > > > > > > > > Ok. Wonderful. I guess we've sufficiently established that from > > henceforth > > > anything dang-old is totally on topic. Any detractors? :) > > > > > > Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly > > > entirely useless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of > > > processing h.p. to be efficient. And no transcodimg is necessary. > > Certainly > > > not an expert. But I should think older hardware would be very very > slow. > > > --===============8301747428949100428==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 05:13:05 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 05:12:40 +0000 Message-ID: <1042947288.1859097.1671599560769@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1042947288.1859097.1671599560769.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2977581456952160106==" --===============2977581456952160106== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This beast was given to me by a neighbor. Dual socket 604. Windows 2003 in so= me RAID configuration. I understand (or used to understand) RAID levels somew= hat. But iinm he tells me the OS is "split" over 6 scsi drives. Not getting t= his, but I don't need all the redundancy/striping. I want it all on 1 drive. = What to use to image what comstitutes 1 volume I guess. Norton Ghost? I have = an extra scsi drive, I can always restore the image to the 1 drive (yes?), be= fore or without alterimg the currently embedded stack. This thing is heavy. I secured a copy of the Corel Linux Starter Kit and want= to load it into the Poweredge. For chips and pringles. I have other pre uefi= boxes around but this is lying dormant. And 6 drives for my purposes is stup= id. And heavy. --===============2977581456952160106==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Dec 21 05:16:56 2022 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 00:16:30 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1042947288.1859097.1671599560769@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5500323215813455933==" --===============5500323215813455933== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > This beast was given to me by a neighbor. Dual socket 604. Windows 2003 in = > some RAID configuration. I understand (or used to understand) RAID levels=20 > somewhat. But iinm he tells me the OS is "split" over 6 scsi drives. Not=20 > getting this, but I don't need all the redundancy/striping. I want it all o= n=20 > 1 drive. What to use to image what comstitutes 1 volume I guess. Norton=20 > Ghost? I have an extra scsi drive, I can always restore the image to the 1 = > drive (yes?), before or without alterimg the currently embedded stack. I don't see any relevance at all to this list. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============5500323215813455933==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Dec 21 05:32:20 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 23:31:48 -0600 Message-ID: <71a99546-3d2a-c5ee-e850-ce016eab74ea@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <1663258325.1447846.1671598676531@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8419457395087349774==" --===============8419457395087349774== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, that's one nay for this topic. :-) Jim --===============8419457395087349774==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Dec 21 05:35:58 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 21:35:36 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5476190995308970686==" --===============5476190995308970686== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> This beast was given to me by a neighbor. Dual socket 604. Windows 2003 in >> some RAID configuration. I understand (or used to understand) RAID levels >> somewhat. But iinm he tells me the OS is "split" over 6 scsi drives. Not >> getting this, but I don't need all the redundancy/striping. I want it all >> on 1 drive. What to use to image what comstitutes 1 volume I guess. Norton >> Ghost? I have an extra scsi drive, I can always restore the image to the 1 >> drive (yes?), before or without alterimg the currently embedded stack. On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > I don't see any relevance at all to this list. Q: How long will it be before it IS on-topic? --===============5476190995308970686==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 21 05:40:44 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 22:40:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7744DD48-3AAD-460D-B8EE-A0E2ACB3CA68@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8649951429292298694==" --===============8649951429292298694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2022-12-20 4:36 p.m., Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Chris via cctalk wro= te: >> >> Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing discussio= n, what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for imstance I have some = questions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. Something tells me t= hat doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. >=20 > The original rule, back around =E2=80=9996/97 was anything older than 10 ye= ars was on-topic. I think the idea behind that is still valid, but these day= s a 10 year old system isn=E2=80=99t that much different from a current one. = I think at one point someone suggested it should be shifted to 20+ years. >=20 > Zane >=20 I think a sublist , for 8 and 16 bit micros might be a good idea.=20 Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist and Soviet PDP 11 might be on say the rare sublist. Ben. --===============8649951429292298694==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Dec 21 05:42:23 2022 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 00:41:58 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1008525195356598296==" --===============1008525195356598296== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 20 Dec 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> This beast was given to me by a neighbor. Dual socket 604. Windows 2003 >>> in some RAID configuration. I understand (or used to understand) RAID >>> levels somewhat. But iinm he tells me the OS is "split" over 6 scsi >>> drives. Not getting this, but I don't need all the redundancy/striping. I >>> want it all on 1 drive. What to use to image what comstitutes 1 volume I >>> guess. Norton Ghost? I have an extra scsi drive, I can always restore the >>> image to the 1 drive (yes?), before or without alterimg the currently >>> embedded stack. > > On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >> I don't see any relevance at all to this list. > > Q: How long will it be before it IS on-topic? A: As soon as someone creates a list for such things. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============1008525195356598296==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 06:03:55 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 06:03:31 +0000 Message-ID: <418859949.2073894.1671602611557@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7935516188082892302==" --===============7935516188082892302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why? Create another list becauae a minority of subscribers consider their op= inions paramount? Don't read what isn't of interest to you. Somewhat of a maj= ority of topics don't interest me. Should I complain that some topics are abo= ut stuff that is too old and irrelevant (and annoying, in actuality, yes it's= so) to some of us? My intent isn't to force my will on anyone. Nor even alter what is appropriat= e. My post posed a question. Some said go for it. I went for it. And 1 odious= objection was raised. Somebody just keep an accurate tally. On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 12:40:29 AM EST, ben via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 2022-12-20 4:36 p.m., Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Chris via cctalk wro= te: >> >> Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing discussio= n, what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for imstance I have some = questions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. Something tells me t= hat doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask. >=20 > The original rule, back around =E2=80=9996/97 was anything older than 10 ye= ars was on-topic.=C2=A0 I think the idea behind that is still valid, but thes= e days a 10 year old system isn=E2=80=99t that much different from a current = one.=C2=A0 I think at one point someone suggested it should be shifted to 20+= years. >=20 > Zane >=20 =C2=A0 I think a sublist , for 8 and 16 bit micros might be a good idea.=20 Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist and Soviet PDP 11=C2=A0 might be on say the rare sublist. Ben. =20 --===============7935516188082892302==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Dec 21 06:09:08 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 22:08:31 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <418859949.2073894.1671602611557@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4781679765130660354==" --===============4781679765130660354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 10:03 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Why? b/c Old people are a bit like old computers? Starting to slowly break down? Usually when I see such crankiness there is a ham call sign present :-) --===============4781679765130660354==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 06:15:30 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 06:15:10 +0000 Message-ID: <1383888135.1864375.1671603310772@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1034277838286344326==" --===============1034277838286344326== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I was considerably younger I told my mother that I was going to a Hamfe= st today. She replied "Oh how nice". Needless to say the woman enjoyed ham. As to the "odious objection", I think it was sent to me directly. Never mind.= And Odious Objector LOL LOL a joke, cut me some slack, will ya. On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 01:08:48 AM EST, Tony Jones via cctalk = wrote: =20 =20 On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 10:03 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 Why? b/c Old people are a bit like old computers?=C2=A0 Starting to slowly break d= own? Usually when I see such crankiness there is a ham call sign present :-) =20 --===============1034277838286344326==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Dec 21 06:19:52 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 00:19:26 -0600 Message-ID: <3caeb3bd-3b8b-b6f3-92a2-b5f226e2630c@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <418859949.2073894.1671602611557@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4186638779185757986==" --===============4186638779185757986== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist > As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet another list for them.  There are many fine forums for all of these machines.  The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed. --===============4186638779185757986==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 06:29:11 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 06:28:42 +0000 Message-ID: <1987999336.2085211.1671604122414@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <3caeb3bd-3b8b-b6f3-92a2-b5f226e2630c@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8256770173141337767==" --===============8256770173141337767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I keep hearing allusions to many forums. I think there are very few. I don't= do FB. Incidentally is selling allowed here? I really can't recall. On Wednesday= , December 21, 2022, 01:19:35 AM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist > As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet=20 another list for them.=C2=A0 There are many fine forums for all of these=20 machines.=C2=A0 The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't=20 ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about=20 these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed. =20 --===============8256770173141337767==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Dec 21 06:49:39 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 00:49:17 -0600 Message-ID: <79171db6-d9dc-21a8-e46f-39766339d7d3@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <1987999336.2085211.1671604122414@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1440505556695984305==" --===============1440505556695984305== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/21/2022 12:28 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I keep hearing allusions to many forums. I think there are very few. I do= n't do FB. There are many web forums. Just for CBM, there's lemon 64, vcforum,=20 atariage (yes, CBM on atariage), denial, Everything 64, and 6502.org=20 handles a few things.=C2=A0 If you can grok German, there's forum64.de Mailing lists include cbm-hackers. Apple, TI, Atari all have similar.=C2=A0 AtariAge handles all of them=20 nominally.=C2=A0 Retro Hackers also handles multiple. Jim --===============1440505556695984305==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 07:23:09 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 07:22:43 +0000 Message-ID: <1253910836.1873776.1671607363094@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <79171db6-d9dc-21a8-e46f-39766339d7d3@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2149775167259248416==" --===============2149775167259248416== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok for cbm and atari yes I'm familiar with most of those. I meant in general= . And specifically where would you go for server related discussions for pII = through socket 771? Every classic/vintage forum seems to adhere to a classic = in it's own right (but perhaps totally valid) definition of obsolete hardware= and software. Remember before this stuff was classic it was overwhelmingly c= onsidered to be obsolete junk. Win98/2000/XP has been moderately collectible = for a while. Don't care what category it falls into. Socket 775 stuff is more= or less just obsolete junk. There's a grouping between and contemporary some= what with those 2 and that's the early-ish server class, which no one may _ev= er_ care much about, because it's comparitively rare (few can relate) and lac= ks agp, so less then ideal for gaming. So where do I go for those discussions? As an aside 2000+\- beige boxes have become pretty collectible, and the large= r server cases like an Inwin A500 has a chassis that slides out. Real nifty. = It'll take a full size ssi-eeb mobo, and standard atx. If someone gets their = hands on 1 they'll likely toss the serverboard and replace it with something = more appropriate for gaming.=20 On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 01:49:24 AM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: On 12/21/2022 12:28 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I keep hearing allusions to many forums. I think there are very few. I don'= t do FB. There are many web forums. Just for CBM, there's lemon 64, vcforum, atariage (yes, CBM on atariage), denial, Everything 64, and 6502.org handles a few things. If you can grok German, there's forum64.de Mailing lists include cbm-hackers. Apple, TI, Atari all have similar. AtariAge handles all of them nominally. Retro Hackers also handles multiple. Jim =20 --===============2149775167259248416==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Dec 21 07:39:46 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 01:39:24 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1253910836.1873776.1671607363094@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5847003719761894647==" --===============5847003719761894647== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/21/2022 1:22 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Ok for cbm and atari yes I'm familiar with most of those. I meant in gene= ral. And specifically where would you go for server related discussions for p= II through socket 771? I admit Pentium and newer forums are a bit harder to find, but some=20 stuff is at: https://forums.tomshardware.com/ https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?forums/pentium-2nd-and-3rd-generation-class= -machines.1230007/ https://forums.anandtech.com/categories/hardware-and-technology.27/ The first two are probably closer to what you're looking for, though I=20 don't see server-specific groups. Jim --===============5847003719761894647==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 08:30:08 2022 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 08:29:41 +0000 Message-ID: <157c01d91516$5fa198b0$1ee4ca10$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1042947288.1859097.1671599560769@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1441623632951675357==" --===============1441623632951675357== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris via cctalk > Sent: 21 December 2022 05:13 > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com > Subject: [cctalk] Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 >=20 > This beast was given to me by a neighbor. Dual socket 604. Windows 2003 in > some RAID configuration. I understand (or used to understand) RAID levels > somewhat. But iinm he tells me the OS is "split" over 6 scsi drives. Not ge= tting > this, but I don't need all the redundancy/striping. I want it all on 1 driv= e. What to > use to image what comstitutes 1 volume I guess. Norton Ghost? I have an ext= ra > scsi drive, I can always restore the image to the 1 drive (yes?), before or= without > alterimg the currently embedded stack. If the RAID is Windows Software Raid only Windows will know. >=20 > This thing is heavy. I secured a copy of the Corel Linux Starter Kit and wa= nt to > load it into the Poweredge. For chips and pringles. I have other pre uefi b= oxes > around but this is lying dormant. And 6 drives for my purposes is stupid. A= nd > heavy. Dave --===============1441623632951675357==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Wed Dec 21 11:50:21 2022 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 11:44:29 +0000 Message-ID: <01SLRILS3QW28WYOLI@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <1364627321.2072203.1671594568114@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5035561867728630206==" --===============5035561867728630206== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Windows 2003 and XP is about as obsolete now as the IBM PC was in 1995. > Probably more so. XP is popular on Vogons but I'm sure considerably less > then 5% of computers actually host it. > > There's also the issue of beating a dead horse. There will always and > forever (and forever...) be some esoteric issue to discuss about some > bizzare and mostly unknown 8 bit system that 3 people on the whole of > planet earth own (now not to brag, but chances are there are a dozen or > less Northstar Dimension owners (never mind users) out there. And I'm > proud to be 1). Who am I going to discuss that with?? And a larger issue > is what? An even larger issue is why? Well I got plans ... > > Lists of this sort are about tech and used by people who love it. Windows > 11 is not germain to these conversations. But what about, and I'm just > putting this out there, making pre UEFI shtuff -on-? I don't even know > how I personally feel about such a delineation. But the suggestion is > there. Nostalgic weirdos like older tech. Yes often dang old. Now a > Thinkpad T60p doesn't exactly seem dang old. But it's pretty much dang > obsolete (can't remember what sort of firmware it has but the processor, > though 64 bit, is part of that hazy quasi transitional grouping that had > more similarities to a 32 bit chip). On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, > 10:05:06 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> Well there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity these days, I has >> thought the suggestion about relaxing the rules might need discussing. >> I know there are people still using Windows 2003 puters, or a near >> equivalent based on XP? But that's entirely irrelevant, as I'm quite >> sure you could find someone out there still utilizing an 8088/286/386. >> Of course that's the discretion of the sysop. As it stands there's at >> least 1 opinion for every ahole attached to the person who types on this >> board. Whateber. The way I see it dang obsolete shouldd be open for >> discussion. > > To summarize:  "On-Topic" == "Dang obsolete" > It seems that the previous list owner lost interest in this mailing list and turfed us over to someone else who doesn't really say anything some time ago. At least I think that's what happened. Nobody really said anything. So, can someone enlighten me on how to stop receiving mail from the list until the holidays and/or this discussion are over under the new regime? Regards, Peter Coghlan --===============5035561867728630206==-- From raymond.wiker@icloud.com Wed Dec 21 12:06:55 2022 From: raymond.wiker@icloud.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 12:57:22 +0100 Message-ID: <9F2EAD06-43E3-4ABB-A8E9-178F557D9042@icloud.com> In-Reply-To: <01SLRILS3QW28WYOLI@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2371980850689535620==" --===============2371980850689535620== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From the headers of your message (and most likely the one you responded to): To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Seems like this is the list for on-topic and off-topic discussions? Further, List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 21 Dec 2022, at 12:44, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> Windows 2003 and XP is about as obsolete now as the IBM PC was in 1995. >> Probably more so. XP is popular on Vogons but I'm sure considerably less >> then 5% of computers actually host it. >>=20 >> There's also the issue of beating a dead horse. There will always and >> forever (and forever...) be some esoteric issue to discuss about some >> bizzare and mostly unknown 8 bit system that 3 people on the whole of >> planet earth own (now not to brag, but chances are there are a dozen or >> less Northstar Dimension owners (never mind users) out there. And I'm >> proud to be 1). Who am I going to discuss that with?? And a larger issue >> is what? An even larger issue is why? Well I got plans ... >>=20 >> Lists of this sort are about tech and used by people who love it. Windows >> 11 is not germain to these conversations. But what about, and I'm just >> putting this out there, making pre UEFI shtuff -on-? I don't even know >> how I personally feel about such a delineation. But the suggestion is >> there. Nostalgic weirdos like older tech. Yes often dang old. Now a >> Thinkpad T60p doesn't exactly seem dang old. But it's pretty much dang >> obsolete (can't remember what sort of firmware it has but the processor, >> though 64 bit, is part of that hazy quasi transitional grouping that had >> more similarities to a 32 bit chip). On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, >> 10:05:06 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: =20 >>=20 >> On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>> Well there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity these days, I has = >>> thought the suggestion about relaxing the rules might need discussing. >>> I know there are people still using Windows 2003 puters, or a near=20 >>> equivalent based on XP? But that's entirely irrelevant, as I'm quite=20 >>> sure you could find someone out there still utilizing an 8088/286/386.=20 >>> Of course that's the discretion of the sysop. As it stands there's at=20 >>> least 1 opinion for every ahole attached to the person who types on this = >>> board. Whateber. The way I see it dang obsolete shouldd be open for=20 >>> discussion. >>=20 >> To summarize: "On-Topic" =3D=3D "Dang obsolete" >>=20 >=20 >=20 > It seems that the previous list owner lost interest in this mailing list > and turfed us over to someone else who doesn't really say anything some > time ago. At least I think that's what happened. Nobody really said > anything. >=20 > So, can someone enlighten me on how to stop receiving mail from the list > until the holidays and/or this discussion are over under the new regime? >=20 > Regards, > Peter Coghlan --===============2371980850689535620==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 13:34:31 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 08:33:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1042947288.1859097.1671599560769@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4606008025084513938==" --===============4606008025084513938== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So Chris, your subject should be OT: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 because this is not on topic for this list. After all of our comments about topic/off topic hopefully you understand what we're talking about. If it's newer than 1990 then your post could very well be off topic (OT) unless there is something novel about the item that makes it unique and worth pushing into newer time periods. To answer your question - read up about this Dell 2600's and the RAID array types available. There will have been a driver/setup CD that came with the system that allows the set up of the drives and RAID prior to installation of the operating system. RAID comes first, then the OS is installed on top of it as if the multiple drives were one logical hard drive. The original OS would have been something older than Win 2003. It is a good thing to have RAID if it works for redundancy purposes. You can't remove the RAID configuration stick the OS on one drive without the setup disk. That's not the mentality you're looking for here. I have one of these in my basement. It came with RedHat 6.2 I believe. Bill On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 12:12 AM Chris via cctalk wrote: > This beast was given to me by a neighbor. Dual socket 604. Windows 2003 in > some RAID configuration. I understand (or used to understand) RAID levels > somewhat. But iinm he tells me the OS is "split" over 6 scsi drives. Not > getting this, but I don't need all the redundancy/striping. I want it all > on 1 drive. What to use to image what comstitutes 1 volume I guess. Norton > Ghost? I have an extra scsi drive, I can always restore the image to the 1 > drive (yes?), before or without alterimg the currently embedded stack. > > This thing is heavy. I secured a copy of the Corel Linux Starter Kit and > want to load it into the Poweredge. For chips and pringles. I have other > pre uefi boxes around but this is lying dormant. And 6 drives for my > purposes is stupid. And heavy. > --===============4606008025084513938==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 13:39:38 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 08:39:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0832285452364392899==" --===============0832285452364392899== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I typically change the subject header when I reply to a post that I consider OT with the hopes that the original poster gets my point that way... On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 11:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > This is really funny. Do you all realize how many times we've gone over > this over the past 25 years? > > As Bill poignantly explained, maybe instead of trying to establish a > cut-off date, we instead think outside of the box: > > If enough people object to a topic, it stops. Let's call it three > objections. If three different people reply to a post objecting to it then > whoosh, off it goes into the bit bucket, never to be spoken of again. > > Example: > > Someone A: Hey, is it OK if I talk about Windows 11? > Someone B: Objection. > Someone C: Objection. > Someone D: Objection. > Someone A: Ok, sorry [bashfully skulks away] > > Food for thought. > > Sellam > > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 8:33 PM Tony Jones via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Traffic on the list is so low I'm not seeing the issue. I'm also not > > seeing complaints about threads being off topic. Seems like solution > > seeking a problem. > > > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 8:28 PM Chris via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:11:27 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk > < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I was not disagreeing with you. > > > > > > > > > Ok. Wonderful. I guess we've sufficiently established that from > > henceforth > > > anything dang-old is totally on topic. Any detractors? :) > > > > > > Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly > > > entirely useless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of > > > processing h.p. to be efficient. And no transcodimg is necessary. > > Certainly > > > not an expert. But I should think older hardware would be very very > slow. > > > --===============0832285452364392899==-- From dillera@dillernet.com Wed Dec 21 14:47:57 2022 From: Andrew Diller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 09:47:33 -0500 Message-ID: <213865A5-ACBB-4E21-AC8B-F51D1A5F5DD0@dillernet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2199960507673663054==" --===============2199960507673663054== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is also TinkerDifferent- which is growing in size quickly (covers all s= ystems, but is skewed a bit towards apple): https://tinkerdifferent.com/forums/pentium-6x86.185/ > On Dec 21, 2022, at 2:39 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > On 12/21/2022 1:22 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> Ok for cbm and atari yes I'm familiar with most of those. I meant in gene= ral. And specifically where would you go for server related discussions for p= II through socket 771? >=20 > I admit Pentium and newer forums are a bit harder to find, but some stuff i= s at: >=20 > https://forums.tomshardware.com/ >=20 > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?forums/pentium-2nd-and-3rd-generation-cla= ss-machines.1230007/ >=20 > https://forums.anandtech.com/categories/hardware-and-technology.27/ >=20 --===============2199960507673663054==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Dec 21 16:45:32 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 10:45:08 -0600 Message-ID: <87f973fd-51f3-6281-1b00-a48f4aedeb3e@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <488869872.1832770.1671591116714@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7962926013050116664==" --===============7962926013050116664== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/20/22 20:51, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Well there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity these days, I has = thought the suggestion about relaxing the rules might need discussing. > > I know there are people still using Windows 2003 puters, or a near equivale= nt based on XP? But that's entirely irrelevant, as I'm quite sure you could f= ind someone out there still utilizing an 8088/286/386. Of course that's the d= iscretion of the sysop. As it stands there's at least 1 opinion for every aho= le attached to the person who types on this board. Whateber. The way I see it= dang obsolete shouldd be open for discussion. We inherited an expensive piece of gear from a different=20 department in our university.=C2=A0 It came with an ISA-bus=20 computer that ran DOS 3.1=C2=A0 That computer was very cranky and=20 finally died.=C2=A0 I tried putting the hard drive in one of my=20 old computers, and it showed the instrument was working.=C2=A0=20 So, we bought an industrial PC with ISA slots that was=20 guaranteed to run software as far back as DOS.=C2=A0 Then, we=20 installed DOS 6.2 on it, and had to put in some fancy=20 drivers to get the ancient ANSI graphics the software=20 required to show up on the screen.=C2=A0 This thing doesn't even=20 use a mouse, you click the arrow keys and it highlights=20 boxes on the screen, then you hit F keys to activate options. I bought a Quad QSA30A pick and place machine, made around=20 2000.=C2=A0 It runs a Celeron 733 MHz CPU and has one ISA slot=20 that interfaces to a dual port memory card that connects to=20 a 68040 VME processor that runs the whole machine.=C2=A0 The PC=20 is just the user interface, and how you set up the assembly=20 job and deal with errors. The software runs under Win 95,=20 and needs to be 95 or 98 since the software goes directly to=20 the hardware. There is an "optimizer" that reorders the part=20 placement sequence and nozzle changes for faster production,=20 and it was (occasionally) screwing up the placement file.=C2=A0 I=20 got a slightly newer version of that program, and so far it=20 SEEMS to not cause the scrambling, but it was intermittent.=C2=A0=20 So, maybe that was a case of "bit rot". So, I still use some old PC systems by necessity. I also use an electronic design program (Protel 99 SE) that=20 originally ran on Win 95, then Win2K, and now I run it under=20 VirtualBox with Win XP on my Linux system. Jon --===============7962926013050116664==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 18:40:36 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 10:40:00 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1253910836.1873776.1671607363094@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7255894213724795421==" --===============7255894213724795421== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Old 8-bits are fun. All you need is a television generally and you're ready to go. Power it up, drop into BASIC, and start doing stuff. With a PC you need a keyboard, a monitor, a mouse probably, a desktop, some software, etc. How cumbersome. And uninteresting. And boring. Maybe not the greatest comparison but that's why I don't come to the ClassicCmp maillist expecting PC discussions. Sellam On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 11:22 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Ok for cbm and atari yes I'm familiar with most of those. I meant in > general. And specifically where would you go for server related discussions > for pII through socket 771? Every classic/vintage forum seems to adhere to > a classic in it's own right (but perhaps totally valid) definition of > obsolete hardware and software. Remember before this stuff was classic it > was overwhelmingly considered to be obsolete junk. Win98/2000/XP has been > moderately collectible for a while. Don't care what category it falls into. > Socket 775 stuff is more or less just obsolete junk. There's a grouping > between and contemporary somewhat with those 2 and that's the early-ish > server class, which no one may _ever_ care much about, because it's > comparitively rare (few can relate) and lacks agp, so less then ideal for > gaming. So where do I go for those discussions? > > As an aside 2000+\- beige boxes have become pretty collectible, and the > larger server cases like an Inwin A500 has a chassis that slides out. Real > nifty. It'll take a full size ssi-eeb mobo, and standard atx. If someone > gets their hands on 1 they'll likely toss the serverboard and replace it > with something more appropriate for gaming. > > On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 01:49:24 AM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 12/21/2022 12:28 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > I keep hearing allusions to many forums. I think there are very few. I > don't do FB. > > There are many web forums. Just for CBM, there's lemon 64, vcforum, > atariage (yes, CBM on atariage), denial, Everything 64, and 6502.org > handles a few things. If you can grok German, there's forum64.de > > Mailing lists include cbm-hackers. > > Apple, TI, Atari all have similar. AtariAge handles all of them > nominally. Retro Hackers also handles multiple. > > Jim > > > --===============7255894213724795421==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 18:52:45 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 18:52:17 +0000 Message-ID: <1734889416.2060209.1671648737629@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5763237128328719608==" --===============5763237128328719608== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So Jay West doesn't own the list anymore? Since when was the cutoff declared= to be 1990? No one is in charge here? What if a revolution takes place? Who = will martial the forces to put ot down and hang all the imsurgents? =20 --===============5763237128328719608==-- From shumaker@att.net Wed Dec 21 18:56:26 2022 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 10:55:57 -0800 Message-ID: <885f7aec-dc49-c4ac-9309-34c1ec936dcb@att.net> In-Reply-To: <3caeb3bd-3b8b-b6f3-92a2-b5f226e2630c@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2366346615380105437==" --===============2366346615380105437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OK..    Now that you mention it, I do have a CBM PET question.  I'm searching for replacement key tops for the chicklet keyboard.  There are stems available (apparently 3d printed) on EPay but no caps. Any suggestions on where to look?    I have the keyboard and it seems a little silly to spend $300 on EPay if I only need 3 keys Steve On 12/20/22 10:19 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist >> > As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet > another list for them.  There are many fine forums for all of these > machines.  The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't > ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about > these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed. > > --===============2366346615380105437==-- From shumaker@att.net Wed Dec 21 18:59:45 2022 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] new topic: CBM PET Keyboard Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 10:59:17 -0800 Message-ID: <8f15eed4-e713-1bc0-56cd-10daedc2d44c@att.net> In-Reply-To: <885f7aec-dc49-c4ac-9309-34c1ec936dcb@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3147569407930951368==" --===============3147569407930951368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit apologies for hijacking the "on topic" thread Steve On 12/21/22 10:55 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > OK.. Now that you mention it, I do have a CBM PET question.  I'm > searching for replacement key tops for the chicklet keyboard. There > are stems available (apparently 3d printed) on EPay but no caps. Any > suggestions on where to look?    I have the keyboard and it seems a > little silly to spend $300 on EPay if I only need 3 keys > > Steve > > On 12/20/22 10:19 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>> Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist >>> >> As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet >> another list for them.  There are many fine forums for all of these >> machines.  The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't >> ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about >> these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed. >> >> > --===============3147569407930951368==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 19:05:40 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 14:05:01 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1734889416.2060209.1671648737629@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4016887013873084548==" --===============4016887013873084548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, That was me saying after 1990, within the context that one should start thinking "is this on topic" if the thing is any newer, and I gave some examples of then it would be and not so much be in my opinion. I also mentioned that to high school kids interested in vintage computers, their *start* point is 1990 many of them based on what I have seen at Kennett Classic museum. They're interested in much newer stuff. Also, smartphones and devices, not just computers. But for this list, as we are today, we're vintage of the 8-bit era vintage computer hobbyist. b On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 1:52 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > So Jay West doesn't own the list anymore? Since when was the cutoff > declared to be 1990? No one is in charge here? What if a revolution takes > place? Who will martial the forces to put ot down and hang all the > imsurgents? --===============4016887013873084548==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 19:34:27 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 19:34:01 +0000 Message-ID: <1735509516.2290910.1671651241936@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4337488115095817208==" --===============4337488115095817208== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just don't remember anyone declaring this to be an 8-bit list. Back when I= was a member no one said pc stuff was off topic. Which is why I asked. And w= asn't aware JW didn't own or run tne list anymore. Evan Koblentz used to hate anything remotely connected to IBM for reasons (mo= re then likely) I won't get into. Everyone has a preference as to what a list= like this should focus on. Their preference is their business. But their pre= ference doesn't need to be forced on everyone else. Jay would chime me when i= t was needed and cite the rules. This is why I asked, expecting a moderator o= r someone well acquainted with the rules to read me the riot act. So Win2003 is off topic, but allowed as long as I say that it is. But I still= want to know when or even if this was formerly declared an 8 bit list.=20 As to your response to my other question, I need to know if ghost will reliab= ly image the 2003 imstall. As I want to keep it. The other issues I'll deal w= ith afterwards. I'm not sure I'll need a setup disk, of course it wouldn't hu= rt. But he warned me to enter setup each time it was powered on and specify '= raid' in one of the settings, for tbe default was 'scsi', and if I didn't mak= e that adjustment (I think because the backup battery is dead) it would wipe = out rje current OS. On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 02:05:19 PM EST, Bill Degnan via cctalk= wrote: =20 =20 Chris, That was me saying after 1990, within the context that one should start thinking "is this on topic" if the thing is any newer, and I gave some examples of then it would be and not so much be in my opinion.=C2=A0 I also mentioned that to high school kids interested in vintage computers, their *start* point is 1990 many of them based on what I have seen at Kennett Classic museum.=C2=A0 They're interested in much newer stuff.=C2=A0 Also, sma= rtphones and devices, not just computers. But for this list, as we are today, we're vintage of the 8-bit era vintage computer hobbyist. b On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 1:52 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 So Jay West doesn't own the list anymore? Since when was the cutoff > declared to be 1990? No one is in charge here? What if a revolution takes > place? Who will martial the forces to put ot down and hang all the > imsurgents? =20 --===============4337488115095817208==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Wed Dec 21 19:38:53 2022 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 11:32:34 -0800 Message-ID: <4F83D2A5-79E1-4043-B57D-025F94922855@snowmoose.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2292658746189092123==" --===============2292658746189092123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 21, 2022, at 11:05, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > But for this list, as we are today, we're vintage of the 8-bit era vintage > computer hobbyist. Is that what is on-topic for this list? To me those were kinda cute toys in the day. But I was using CYBERs and PDPs = and VAXen and Burroughs mainframes then. That stuff and JAWS-era workstations= and pre-Ultra Sun boxes are what interest me. Am I in the wrong place? --===============2292658746189092123==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 19:41:13 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 11:40:36 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <885f7aec-dc49-c4ac-9309-34c1ec936dcb@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5900281887282071353==" --===============5900281887282071353== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Steve. (Long time no talk.) My suggestion to you, as abhorrent as it may seem, is to buy a complete PET 2001, take your 3 keycaps, and part the rest out. Preferably one that's in crap shape. They aren't that uncommon. Sellam On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 10:56 AM steve shumaker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > OK.. Now that you mention it, I do have a CBM PET question. I'm > searching for replacement key tops for the chicklet keyboard. There are > stems available (apparently 3d printed) on EPay but no caps. Any > suggestions on where to look? I have the keyboard and it seems a > little silly to spend $300 on EPay if I only need 3 keys > > Steve > > On 12/20/22 10:19 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > >> Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist > >> > > As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet > > another list for them. There are many fine forums for all of these > > machines. The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't > > ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about > > these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed. > > > > > > --===============5900281887282071353==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 19:45:40 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 11:45:06 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7230532413474751551==" --===============7230532413474751551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will have to admit that, until I joined the CC list in 1997 when it was first launched by Bill Whitson (anyone ever heard from him since he last posted about sticking razorblades to the underside of his dashboard to thwart thieves, which apparently worked?) I didn't have much knowledge about computers before 1980, and I was amazed to learn that the first computers were being built in the 1930s (to say nothing of Charles Babbage's work in the 1830s). I was pretty much a neophyte of computer history. However, I quickly became interested in all machines of all eras after joining the mailing list. Sellam On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 11:05 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Chris, > That was me saying after 1990, within the context that one should start > thinking "is this on topic" if the thing is any newer, and I gave some > examples of then it would be and not so much be in my opinion. I also > mentioned that to high school kids interested in vintage computers, their > *start* point is 1990 many of them based on what I have seen at Kennett > Classic museum. They're interested in much newer stuff. Also, smartphones > and devices, not just computers. > > But for this list, as we are today, we're vintage of the 8-bit era vintage > computer hobbyist. > > b > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 1:52 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > So Jay West doesn't own the list anymore? Since when was the cutoff > > declared to be 1990? No one is in charge here? What if a revolution takes > > place? Who will martial the forces to put ot down and hang all the > > imsurgents? > --===============7230532413474751551==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 19:46:18 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 14:45:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <885f7aec-dc49-c4ac-9309-34c1ec936dcb@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4021326002085116310==" --===============4021326002085116310== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No personal experience but maybe this'll help: https://corei64.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=285 Sorry for encouraging inappropriate threads ;-) m On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 1:56 PM steve shumaker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > OK.. Now that you mention it, I do have a CBM PET question. I'm > searching for replacement key tops for the chicklet keyboard. There are > stems available (apparently 3d printed) on EPay but no caps. Any > suggestions on where to look? I have the keyboard and it seems a > little silly to spend $300 on EPay if I only need 3 keys > > Steve > > On 12/20/22 10:19 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > >> Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist > >> > > As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet > > another list for them. There are many fine forums for all of these > > machines. The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't > > ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about > > these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed. > > > > > > --===============4021326002085116310==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 19:59:26 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 11:58:51 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1735509516.2290910.1671651241936@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5770852537656247464==" --===============5770852537656247464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, This list was never declared to be exclusively an 8-bit affair. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. From the get go in 1997 when Bill Whitson founded the list, all computers of a vintage or obsolete nature were game for discussion. It's only after a few years and time marching on with its inevitable technological progress, and companies that were once industry stalwarts started to fall by the wayside, that we began to question what the cut-off is. And as far as the IBM PC, it was definitely vintage by the time the list was launched. The objections back in the day as I remember them were to questions pertaining to modern x86 or Macintosh systems that had plenty of forums elsewhere on the internet to engage in discussions of those (i.e. this is not a tech support forum) (...unless it's vintage tech). These days, however, I think it's fine to discuss 286/386/486 and even Pentium (below the II, at least) systems because they're sufficiently "vintage" now in the sense of the word that I think brings focus to the purpose and nature of this hobby. In the interest of putting this thread to rest, if I were to call the rule, I'd make it simple: don't bring up boring modern topics that have a better home somewhere else. And with that, I hope we can move on, or at least morph this thread into a more interesting topic. Sellam On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 11:34 AM Chris via cctalk wrote: > I just don't remember anyone declaring this to be an 8-bit list. Back > when I was a member no one said pc stuff was off topic. Which is why I > asked. And wasn't aware JW didn't own or run tne list anymore. > > Evan Koblentz used to hate anything remotely connected to IBM for reasons > (more then likely) I won't get into. Everyone has a preference as to what a > list like this should focus on. Their preference is their business. But > their preference doesn't need to be forced on everyone else. Jay would > chime me when it was needed and cite the rules. This is why I asked, > expecting a moderator or someone well acquainted with the rules to read me > the riot act. > > So Win2003 is off topic, but allowed as long as I say that it is. But I > still want to know when or even if this was formerly declared an 8 bit > list. > > As to your response to my other question, I need to know if ghost will > reliably image the 2003 imstall. As I want to keep it. The other issues > I'll deal with afterwards. I'm not sure I'll need a setup disk, of course > it wouldn't hurt. But he warned me to enter setup each time it was powered > on and specify 'raid' in one of the settings, for tbe default was 'scsi', > and if I didn't make that adjustment (I think because the backup battery is > dead) it would wipe out rje current OS. > On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 02:05:19 PM EST, Bill Degnan via > cctalk wrote: > > Chris, > That was me saying after 1990, within the context that one should start > thinking "is this on topic" if the thing is any newer, and I gave some > examples of then it would be and not so much be in my opinion. I also > mentioned that to high school kids interested in vintage computers, their > *start* point is 1990 many of them based on what I have seen at Kennett > Classic museum. They're interested in much newer stuff. Also, smartphones > and devices, not just computers. > > But for this list, as we are today, we're vintage of the 8-bit era vintage > computer hobbyist. > > b > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 1:52 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > So Jay West doesn't own the list anymore? Since when was the cutoff > > declared to be 1990? No one is in charge here? What if a revolution takes > > place? Who will martial the forces to put ot down and hang all the > > imsurgents? > --===============5770852537656247464==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 21 20:00:46 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 12:58:49 -0700 Message-ID: <80ad06c5-beb8-10a0-61f9-3bd5e7835e95@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: <7744DD48-3AAD-460D-B8EE-A0E2ACB3CA68@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6992691273724132655==" --===============6992691273724132655== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've not (yet) read 40+ messages in this thread. I'd borrow a measure from vehicle licensing in what defines a "classic" car. Specifically any care 25 years old or older. It's not a perfect line, but it is a relatively easy line. I find that a quarter of a century to be easier to remember than something else; 20 / 30 years. Of course, this is a guideline and things will fall either side thereof. Just my 2¢ worth. On 12/20/22 4:36 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > The original rule, back around ’96/97 was anything older than 10 > years was on-topic. I think the idea behind that is still valid, > but these days a 10 year old system isn’t that much different from > a current one. I think at one point someone suggested it should be > shifted to 20+ years. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============6992691273724132655==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 20:27:49 2022 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 14:27:13 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3277168535054354907==" --===============3277168535054354907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not sure but Ghost will at least tell you what it sees. Then you can choose to back it up. If you can tell it's the right size of the partition you expect then you should be good to go. You'd just need the raid partition or a regular drive of that size to restore it. The catch will be wether Ghost recognizes the raid card. On Wed, Dec 21, 2022, 7:34 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > So Chris, your subject should be OT: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 > because this is not on topic for this list. After all of our comments > about topic/off topic hopefully you understand what we're talking about. > If it's newer than 1990 then your post could very well be off topic (OT) > unless there is something novel about the item that makes it unique and > worth pushing into newer time periods. > > To answer your question - read up about this Dell 2600's and the RAID array > types available. There will have been a driver/setup CD that came with the > system that allows the set up of the drives and RAID prior to installation > of the operating system. RAID comes first, then the OS is installed on top > of it as if the multiple drives were one logical hard drive. The original > OS would have been something older than Win 2003. It is a good thing to > have RAID if it works for redundancy purposes. You can't remove the RAID > configuration stick the OS on one drive without the setup disk. That's not > the mentality you're looking for here. I have one of these in my > basement. It came with RedHat 6.2 I believe. > > Bill > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 12:12 AM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > This beast was given to me by a neighbor. Dual socket 604. Windows 2003 > in > > some RAID configuration. I understand (or used to understand) RAID levels > > somewhat. But iinm he tells me the OS is "split" over 6 scsi drives. Not > > getting this, but I don't need all the redundancy/striping. I want it all > > on 1 drive. What to use to image what comstitutes 1 volume I guess. > Norton > > Ghost? I have an extra scsi drive, I can always restore the image to the > 1 > > drive (yes?), before or without alterimg the currently embedded stack. > > > > This thing is heavy. I secured a copy of the Corel Linux Starter Kit and > > want to load it into the Poweredge. For chips and pringles. I have other > > pre uefi boxes around but this is lying dormant. And 6 drives for my > > purposes is stupid. And heavy. > > > --===============3277168535054354907==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Dec 21 20:37:48 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 12:37:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <432b7914-0a0f-4218-d7b6-a8d946817b9f@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4890187878122805215==" --===============4890187878122805215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 12:35 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > If old 8 bits are fun, older 12 bits are even more fun (50% more fun by > word size). > What about VLIW? Not that many places to discuss Itanic these days :) --===============4890187878122805215==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 20:51:40 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 20:51:15 +0000 Message-ID: <595195706.2312311.1671655875045@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <4F83D2A5-79E1-4043-B57D-025F94922855@snowmoose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5936818299863441050==" --===============5936818299863441050== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You see, you see. A lot of people are getting stressed oit! Somebody please = give me a pillow. And a candy bar would be nice. A draw the shades LOL On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 02:38:37 PM EST, Alan Perry via cctalk = wrote: =20 =20 =20 > On Dec 21, 2022, at 11:05, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > But for this list, as we are today, we're vintage of the 8-bit era vintage > computer hobbyist. Is that what is on-topic for this list? To me those were kinda cute toys in the day. But I was using CYBERs and PDPs = and VAXen and Burroughs mainframes then. That stuff and JAWS-era workstations= and pre-Ultra Sun boxes are what interest me. Am I in the wrong place? =20 --===============5936818299863441050==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Dec 21 20:52:14 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 13:45:41 -0600 Message-ID: <987c0f4b-ae77-44f3-c1db-f407f0fb9e7f@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8148941258980208291==" --===============8148941258980208291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There were many computers that predate the 8 bit microprocessor based computers. Most of these systems are 12 bits, 16 bits, 18 bits and 36 bits (I excluded 32 bits because I'm not familiar with any 32 bits systems that were not microprocessors) DEC, Data General, CDC, IBM, Honeywell, Amdahl, GE & Cray to name just a few systems that predate 1990 that are not 8 bit microprocessor based systems. All of these would be totally on topic. On 12/21/2022 1:05 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Chris, > That was me saying after 1990, within the context that one should start > thinking "is this on topic" if the thing is any newer, and I gave some > examples of then it would be and not so much be in my opinion. I also > mentioned that to high school kids interested in vintage computers, their > *start* point is 1990 many of them based on what I have seen at Kennett > Classic museum. They're interested in much newer stuff. Also, smartphones > and devices, not just computers. > > But for this list, as we are today, we're vintage of the 8-bit era vintage > computer hobbyist. > > b > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 1:52 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > >> So Jay West doesn't own the list anymore? Since when was the cutoff >> declared to be 1990? No one is in charge here? What if a revolution takes >> place? Who will martial the forces to put ot down and hang all the >> imsurgents? --===============8148941258980208291==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 21:04:09 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 21:03:41 +0000 Message-ID: <1001145413.2318736.1671656621127@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0761571984617726983==" --===============0761571984617726983== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sellam, I find nearly everything you said cogent and well appreciated. Espec= ially coming from someone like you who is a prime mover-shaker in this hobby.= I'd like to give a better more detailed reply, but don't have the time prese= ntly. And I realize people get tired of a topic when it's drawn out for too l= ong. But perhaps new insights can be brought to light when an old issue is re= visited.=20 I don't know, what do I know. No one ever said I was an authoriry on anything= . Except Suzi-Qs. And I can't even seem to find them anymore! On Wednesda= y, December 21, 2022, 02:59:10 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 Chris, This list was never declared to be exclusively an 8-bit affair.=C2=A0 I'm not sure where you're getting that from.=C2=A0 From the get go in 1997 when Bill Whitson founded the list, all computers of a vintage or obsolete nature were game for discussion.=C2=A0 It's only after a few years and time marching= on with its inevitable technological progress, and companies that were once industry stalwarts started to fall by the wayside, that we began to question what the cut-off is.=C2=A0 And as far as the IBM PC, it was definite= ly vintage by the time the list was launched.=C2=A0 The objections back in the d= ay as I remember them were to questions pertaining to modern x86 or Macintosh systems that had plenty of forums elsewhere on the internet to engage in discussions of those (i.e. this is not a tech support forum) (...unless it's vintage tech).=C2=A0 These days, however, I think it's fine to discuss 286/386/486 and even Pentium (below the II, at least) systems because they're sufficiently "vintage" now in the sense of the word that I think brings focus to the purpose and nature of this hobby. In the interest of putting this thread to rest, if I were to call the rule, I'd make it simple: don't bring up boring modern topics that have a better home somewhere else. And with that, I hope we can move on, or at least morph this thread into a more interesting topic. Sellam On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 11:34 AM Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 I just don't remember anyone declaring this to be an 8-bit list. Back > when I was a member no one said pc stuff was off topic. Which is why I > asked. And wasn't aware JW didn't own or run tne list anymore. > > Evan Koblentz used to hate anything remotely connected to IBM for reasons > (more then likely) I won't get into. Everyone has a preference as to what a > list like this should focus on. Their preference is their business. But > their preference doesn't need to be forced on everyone else. Jay would > chime me when it was needed and cite the rules. This is why I asked, > expecting a moderator or someone well acquainted with the rules to read me > the riot act. > > So Win2003 is off topic, but allowed as long as I say that it is. But I > still want to know when or even if this was formerly declared an 8 bit > list. > > As to your response to my other question, I need to know if ghost will > reliably image the 2003 imstall. As I want to keep it. The other issues > I'll deal with afterwards. I'm not sure I'll need a setup disk, of course > it wouldn't hurt. But he warned me to enter setup each time it was powered > on and specify 'raid' in one of the settings, for tbe default was 'scsi', > and if I didn't make that adjustment (I think because the backup battery is > dead) it would wipe out rje current OS. >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 02:05:19 PM EST, Bill = Degnan via > cctalk wrote: > >=C2=A0 Chris, > That was me saying after 1990, within the context that one should start > thinking "is this on topic" if the thing is any newer, and I gave some > examples of then it would be and not so much be in my opinion.=C2=A0 I also > mentioned that to high school kids interested in vintage computers, their > *start* point is 1990 many of them based on what I have seen at Kennett > Classic museum.=C2=A0 They're interested in much newer stuff.=C2=A0 Also, s= martphones > and devices, not just computers. > > But for this list, as we are today, we're vintage of the 8-bit era vintage > computer hobbyist. > > b > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 1:52 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > >=C2=A0 So Jay West doesn't own the list anymore? Since when was the cutoff > > declared to be 1990? No one is in charge here? What if a revolution takes > > place? Who will martial the forces to put ot down and hang all the > > imsurgents? > =20 --===============0761571984617726983==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 21:05:55 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Using Gesswein board with RQDX3 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 16:05:29 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5373740100444388302==" --===============5373740100444388302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Merry Christmas, everybody, I am trying to do the above. ZRQC comes up and says four drives of unknown type. Has anybody done this?  I figure there must be a configuration that needs to be done, but found nothing in the documentation to do it. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============5373740100444388302==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 21:41:40 2022 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 21:41:12 +0000 Message-ID: <1b0d01d91584$f2c78a50$d8569ef0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1943546147202433066==" --===============1943546147202433066== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, Win2003 had software raid. Does ghost see this? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: John Herron via cctalk > Sent: 21 December 2022 20:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: John Herron > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 >=20 > I'm not sure but Ghost will at least tell you what it sees. Then you can ch= oose to > back it up. If you can tell it's the right size of the partition you expect= then you > should be good to go. You'd just need the raid partition or a regular drive= of that > size to restore it. >=20 > The catch will be wether Ghost recognizes the raid card. >=20 > On Wed, Dec 21, 2022, 7:34 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > So Chris, your subject should be OT: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 > > because this is not on topic for this list. After all of our comments > > about topic/off topic hopefully you understand what we're talking about. > > If it's newer than 1990 then your post could very well be off topic > > (OT) unless there is something novel about the item that makes it > > unique and worth pushing into newer time periods. > > > > To answer your question - read up about this Dell 2600's and the RAID > > array types available. There will have been a driver/setup CD that > > came with the system that allows the set up of the drives and RAID > > prior to installation of the operating system. RAID comes first, then > > the OS is installed on top of it as if the multiple drives were one > > logical hard drive. The original OS would have been something older > > than Win 2003. It is a good thing to have RAID if it works for > > redundancy purposes. You can't remove the RAID configuration stick > > the OS on one drive without the setup disk. That's not the mentality > > you're looking for here. I have one of these in my basement. It came wi= th > RedHat 6.2 I believe. > > > > Bill > > > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 12:12 AM Chris via cctalk > > > > wrote: > > > > > This beast was given to me by a neighbor. Dual socket 604. Windows > > > 2003 > > in > > > some RAID configuration. I understand (or used to understand) RAID > > > levels somewhat. But iinm he tells me the OS is "split" over 6 scsi > > > drives. Not getting this, but I don't need all the > > > redundancy/striping. I want it all on 1 drive. What to use to image what > comstitutes 1 volume I guess. > > Norton > > > Ghost? I have an extra scsi drive, I can always restore the image to > > > the > > 1 > > > drive (yes?), before or without alterimg the currently embedded stack. > > > > > > This thing is heavy. I secured a copy of the Corel Linux Starter Kit > > > and want to load it into the Poweredge. For chips and pringles. I > > > have other pre uefi boxes around but this is lying dormant. And 6 > > > drives for my purposes is stupid. And heavy. > > > > > --===============1943546147202433066==-- From spc@conman.org Wed Dec 21 22:14:32 2022 From: Sean Conner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 16:50:53 -0500 Message-ID: <20221221215053.GA18382@brevard.conman.org> In-Reply-To: <1735509516.2290910.1671651241936@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0054010271749389226==" --===============0054010271749389226== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was thus said that the Great Chris via cctalk once stated: > I just don't remember anyone declaring this to be an 8-bit list. Back > when I was a member no one said pc stuff was off topic. Which is why I > asked. And wasn't aware JW didn't own or run tne list anymore. One rule I remember (from the early 2000s) is that anything 10 years or older is on-topic. At that point, it was pretty much stuff up to around 1990 or there abouts. I personally feel that MS-DOS is fine, and even Windows up through 2.x is okay, but Windows 3 or higher is probably not a fit for this list (aka, anything Wintel is not fine). As far as 1990 goes, that is now 30 years ago (nearly 33 in fact). The SGI I used in 1992 is probably on topic (as it was never mainstream, but a cool machine nonetheless), but not a PC from 1992. -spc --===============0054010271749389226==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 22:23:40 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 22:23:12 +0000 Message-ID: <1291436234.2349799.1671661392150@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20221221215053.GA18382@brevard.conman.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9120456684810618879==" --===============9120456684810618879== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 05:14:13 PM EST, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: One rule I remember (from the early 2000s) is that anything 10 years or older is on-topic. At that point, it was pretty much stuff up to around 1990 or there abouts. I personally feel that MS-DOS is fine, and even Windows up through 2.x is okay, but Windows 3 or higher is probably not a fit for this list (aka, anything Wintel is not fine). As far as 1990 goes, that is now 30 years ago (nearly 33 in fact). The SGI I used in 1992 is probably on topic (as it was never mainstream, but a cool machine nonetheless), but not a PC from 1992. -spc As a general rule, by my reckoning, something 1990 ish is the breakpoint for = what's truly vintage also. Sgi, Amiga, Atari, all vintage. 386 pc's, I tend t= o say no, but wouldn't howl about it. There's a lot of shooting from the hip = , but my opinion is real close to Sean's and a lot of other people. And like = someone said there is loads of expertise on forums like this. It's seems a sh= ame not to tap into it. =20 --===============9120456684810618879==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 21 23:15:15 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: OT: Win2K+3 on a Dell Poweredge 2600 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 16:13:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1042947288.1859097.1671599560769@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4416596628087793840==" --===============4416596628087793840== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/20/22 10:12 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > This beast was given to me by a neighbor. Dual socket 604. Windows > 2003 in some RAID configuration. It might help us to know what model the Dell server is. > I understand (or used to understand) RAID levels somewhat. But iinm he > tells me the OS is "split" over 6 scsi drives. That could mean many different things. Aside: Is "iinm" short of "if I'm not mistaken"? > Not getting this, but I don't need all the redundancy/striping. I > understand (or used to understand) RAID levels somewhat. But iinm he > tells me the OS is "split" over 6 scsi drives. Not getting this, but > I don't need all the redundancy/striping. I want it all on 1 drive. It's technically possible, though unlikely, that the RAID is of really small drives, and you may need the aggregate space of multiple drives to do the install. Though I'd be surprised if they are smaller than 4.3 GB drives, and Windows 2003 itself will easily fit in that space. > What to use to image what comstitutes 1 volume I guess. It really depends what the RAID technology is. PowerEdge servers used a combination of PowerEdge RAID Controller (a.k.a. PERC) cards (read: hardware) and / or Windows (read: software) RAID technologies. -- At least from Dell. There are lots of other more esoteric options too. You / we really need to know what /type/ of RAID is used to be able to move forward with any certainty. > Norton Ghost? If it's a PERC and it presents itself to the BIOS as a SCSI card, then chances are decent that you can get (Norton) Ghost to work on the drive. Aside: There's every chance that Ghost will refuse to work on a server OS and require you to use a different version. -- This was the case with PowerQuest's PartitionMagic vs ServerMagic. Further Aside: I'd expect that PQ-SM would at lease see the /logical/ /volume(s)/, even if it was software RAID. I don't think there was much change between NT's software RAID and Windows 2000 / 2003 counterparts. This is assuming that you do the cloning from outside of Windows, which is usually a safe bet. I have routinely used Acronis TrueImage from inside of Windows to backup systems. I believe that such a backup can be used to restore to bare metal. Acronis even has options for -- what I think they call -- disaster recovery that will allow the backup and / or restore process to inject generic drivers into the recovered system so that you can restore to dissimilar hardware. All of this ignores what i consider to be the elephant in the room. -- What is on the server that you care about retaining? Or why don't you just blow it away and do a fresh install of Windows on the drive configuration that you want? > I have an extra scsi drive, I can always restore the image to the 1 > drive (yes?), before or without alterimg the currently embedded stack. Maybe. Probably. Capacity /may/ be an issue. Especially if there's software other than /just/ Windows Server 2003 that you want to retain; e.g. application data. > This thing is heavy. I secured a copy of the Corel Linux Starter Kit > and want to load it into the Poweredge. For chips and pringles. I > have other pre uefi boxes around but this is lying dormant. And 6 > drives for my purposes is stupid. And heavy. If you're going to install Corel Linux, do you even really care about the Windows installation? There is actually a chance that installing Linux on the spare drive may be one of the better paths moving forward. I say this because it should be possible to make Linux see just about any type of RAID on the system. Chances are extremely good that Linux will see the PERC -- if that's what it is -- as well as Microsoft Dynamic Volume -- if it's software RAID inside of Windows. At least I think Linux's Dynamic Volume support includes software RAID. You probably have many more tools available in Linux to image the logical volume(s), whether they be hardware and / or software. PartImage comes to mind. Once you have the image, you can then do away with the RAID as it exists and do whatever you want with the rest of the drives. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============4416596628087793840==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 23:31:25 2022 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 15:30:49 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1291436234.2349799.1671661392150@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6376655479418028607==" --===============6376655479418028607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 100's of replies later... The first rule of Off-Topic Club is that you do not talk about Off-Topic Club. --===============6376655479418028607==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Thu Dec 22 01:33:06 2022 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 02:32:36 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <455704275.2072503.1671596915698@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6206442853495160557==" --===============6206442853495160557== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 04:28:35AM +0000, Chris via cctalk wrote: [...] > Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly > entirely useless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of > processing h.p. to be efficient. And no transcodimg is > necessary. Certainly not an expert. But I should think older > hardware would be very very slow. From my rather limited experience, it grossly depends on cache size vs size of movie frame, at least for some kinds of processing. I can, (well, could) have seen it very well - processing (say, denoising) a 1:1.85 ratio material with 560x304 resolution was going with, say, acceptable speed. Of course I would love it ten times, hundred, thousand times faster, because, why not. But, acceptable. Increase frame size twofold (because experimenting - is it worth to process like this, will results be any better?), still fits in cache, I still can live with it even if it is circa four times slower. Increase fourfold, eightfold, and it seems to choke my 8-10yo cpu. So, yeah, modern formats, 4K and whatnot, they would not fit in cache. On the positive side, even old cpu for which new Windows is "too good to install" can still do a lot of sound processing - which is, again, as far as I understand it, related to cpu cache vs problem size. And why would anybody waste cpu cycles on showing all the Windows menus and stuff :-). Unless you guys talk about video crunching on PDP-8? (runs and ducks) -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============6206442853495160557==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Thu Dec 22 01:45:27 2022 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 02:44:56 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9106107127029583836==" --===============9106107127029583836== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 04:17:19PM -0800, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I am going to ditto Zane because I basically could've written that same > exact message like an infinite monkey on an infinite typewriter. > > Sellam Turing Monkey? Does it have infinite roll of paper? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============9106107127029583836==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 22 02:39:29 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 19:39:05 -0700 Message-ID: <83f36c6a-6150-461e-0fbd-85fb2826b9e6@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9127620805168822519==" --===============9127620805168822519== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-12-21 6:44 p.m., Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 04:17:19PM -0800, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> I am going to ditto Zane because I basically could've written that same >> exact message like an infinite monkey on an infinite typewriter. >> >> Sellam > > Turing Monkey? Does it have infinite roll of paper? > Forget that, when does get he his bananas. :) Ben. --===============9127620805168822519==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Dec 22 02:42:26 2022 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Gesswein board with RQDX3 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 21:41:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6533205349527479730==" --===============6533205349527479730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 21 Dec 2022, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > I am trying to do the above. ZRQC comes up and says four drives of unknown = > type. > > Has anybody done this?=C2=A0 I figure there must be a configuration that ne= eds to=20 > be done, but found nothing in the documentation to do it. Have you tried contacting Dave Gesswein directly? He's usually very=20 responsive to questions, and is a DEC guru. https://www.pdp8online.com/ Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============6533205349527479730==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 22 02:54:01 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 19:53:34 -0700 Message-ID: <7b1bca90-a2b9-6c93-8f8f-c59047ac3a86@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4207969808899562231==" --===============4207969808899562231== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-12-21 6:32 p.m., Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 04:28:35AM +0000, Chris via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly >> entirely useless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of >> processing h.p. to be efficient. And no transcodimg is >> necessary. Certainly not an expert. But I should think older >> hardware would be very very slow. > >>From my rather limited experience, it grossly depends on cache size vs > size of movie frame, at least for some kinds of processing. I can, > (well, could) have seen it very well - processing (say, denoising) a > 1:1.85 ratio material with 560x304 resolution was going with, say, > acceptable speed. Of course I would love it ten times, hundred, > thousand times faster, because, why not. But, acceptable. Increase > frame size twofold (because experimenting - is it worth to process > like this, will results be any better?), still fits in cache, I still > can live with it even if it is circa four times slower. Increase > fourfold, eightfold, and it seems to choke my 8-10yo cpu. > > So, yeah, modern formats, 4K and whatnot, they would not fit in cache. > > On the positive side, even old cpu for which new Windows is "too good > to install" can still do a lot of sound processing - which is, again, > as far as I understand it, related to cpu cache vs problem size. And why > would anybody waste cpu cycles on showing all the Windows menus and > stuff :-). > > Unless you guys talk about video crunching on PDP-8? (runs and ducks) > Modern computers still need to faster, for real I/O. This is PDP 1 here. https://spacewar.oversigma.com/ Ben. --===============4207969808899562231==-- From steven@malikoff.com Thu Dec 22 03:16:41 2022 From: steven@malikoff.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DLV11 M7940 SLU header wire colours? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 13:16:18 +1000 Message-ID: <6a13e36b02237f8c5288a1acffb9e08e.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0036509013430169950==" --===============0036509013430169950== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry this post isn't about whether something is regarded as classic or not. I am almost done putting together a little 4-card Qbus machine using a H9281-= BA card frame. Eschewing a piece of plywood, the frame, power supply, fans, Heeltoe POR board are all mounted on a clear acrylic A4-sized office 'In Tray= ' I picked up at a recycling centre. Hence I've named it PERSPEX-11 :) So.. For a DLV11 EIA serial connection, I am about to wire up a fly lead cable to = go from an M7940 SLU (no dash version) 40-pin header to a DB25P. After finding the pinout on page 178 in the 1980 Interfaces Handbook, on head= er J1 I know only need the usual basic RS232 setup: J - Received Data F - Transmitted Data B - Signal Ground M to E loopback I have a blank 40-pin header shell and a pile of DuPont leads of all colours = ready to slot into their respective locations in the header. I could use any colours but I'd really like to use the original colours for the above wir= es. So, the only wire colour reference in the handbook is for a J1 and J2 header = DRV11 pinout on page 275. Pin B is Black, and Transmit is Red but Pin J Receive is marked as Orange/Ground, for that device. Also M and E don't have = their colours specified for the loopback wire. I've also looked at the Gunkies 'DEC asynchronous serial line pinout' page wh= ich has the pinout but it doesn't mention the original wire colours sadly. Could someone point me to what colours the M7940 cable should be? Thanks for any help, Steve. --===============0036509013430169950==-- From decguy@songdog.eskimo.com Thu Dec 22 03:23:53 2022 From: "Guy N." To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 19:11:46 -0800 Message-ID: <1671678706.1969.73.camel@moondog> In-Reply-To: <995926679.1996723.1671575233629@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5460630184349674838==" --===============5460630184349674838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, funny, I was just thinking of asking this same question as I resurrect a Mac G4 from about 2001, running Mac OS 9 (not OS X). There's a whole website and forum[1] for that, though. I read this list a lot more than I post. I enjoy some of the tales of old machines, especially anything DEC. Sometimes I learn things from tangentially off-topic posts (like discussions of software tools and image file formats best for making archival copies of documentation, or the best formulation for trapping fruit flies in the kitchen). Personally, I'm not very interested in C64, TRS-80, or peecees, but that's just me. It takes me a trivial amount of time to delete a message and move on to the next if I'm not interested. Since the average traffic is low, I don't have a problem with a low bar for "on topic". Perhaps a good but blurry line is "old enough not to be of much practical use anymore for most people, but significant in the history of computing for some reason"? [1] http://www.macos9lives.com, for anyone else playing with such toys. --===============5460630184349674838==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Dec 22 04:16:37 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] transcoding etc. was Re: Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 04:16:10 +0000 Message-ID: <488345427.2211188.1671682570810@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3206452343440903641==" --===============3206452343440903641== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I obtained a copy of Image Processing in C recently, with the disk, a book w= hich is nearly vintage in it's own right. Back in the 90s I wanted to digitiz= e my then vast library of books. That book, which I foumd at a library, seeme= d a good starting point. Truth is though it really didn't seem practical prio= r to the availability of cheap digital cameras. And transcoding would have a = necessary service as the only framegrabber I had at the time was some weird l= ittle box for a Mac. And the only mac I had was a IIx. It's surprising what y= ou can accomplish sometimes with very little. But sometimes you need a little= more for the job too be even feasible. I abandoned =20 --===============3206452343440903641==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Dec 22 04:23:46 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 04:23:21 +0000 Message-ID: <744617221.2419440.1671683001104@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1671678706.1969.73.camel@moondog> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5133368012668611112==" --===============5133368012668611112== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep. It's called dang old Guy. Anything dang-old is like totally appropriate= dude. On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 10:23:36 PM EST, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: Perhaps a good but blurry line is "old enough not to be of much practical use anymore for most people, but significant in the history of computing for some reason"? [1] http://www.macos9lives.com, for anyone else playing with such toys. =20 --===============5133368012668611112==-- From cedric@cedric.net Thu Dec 22 10:18:18 2022 From: Cedric Amand To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 11:08:28 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8522965072464048522==" --===============8522965072464048522== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey everyone, No - I won't ask if this is on topic or not :) I'm currently re= paring an ALPS plotter ( a Tandy "ce 150" equivalent ) and it's not the first= time I face the same problem ; how to replace NiCD batteries. In the past wh= at I did is actually order new NiCd ( you can still find them here in Europe,= well actually out of europe but in eastern countries close to europe ) Howev= er they are at best NOS nowadays, that does "work" enough for moderate use (I= 've done that on vintage laptops) This time I'd like to go a bit beyond that = and replace the NiCd with modern NiMH (the plotter coils and motors will bene= fit the extra power) However the trickle chagre of NiCd applied to NiMH will = either kill my batteries or kill me in a house fire. I see small $1 NiMH 5S c= harging boards on Aliexpress, I thought I might use that, try to shove it it = the CE150 (or other devcies with the same problem) TL-DR : Before I re invent= the wheel here ; Has anyone developed a proper way to replace NiCd with N iMH in vintage (mostly portable) equipment ? And I mean not simply swapping t= he batteries, I don't want that, I want a proper charge process. --===============8522965072464048522==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Thu Dec 22 11:05:26 2022 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLV11 M7940 SLU header wire colours? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 11:04:59 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6a13e36b02237f8c5288a1acffb9e08e.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7174385260994610300==" --===============7174385260994610300== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve You will find some additional write up of the DLV11J (M9740) in LSI11SeytemsS= erviceManualAug81.pdf page no ~270 et seq see e.g. https://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/LSI-11_Systems_Service_Manual_Au= g81.pdf However, additional enlightenment is limited to the cab kit and MP part numbe= rs, e.g. BC05C; which may yeild wire colours. As the M - E link is a ground strap to the differential receiver I would incl= ine to using black wire (cf gnd line). I must have seen a genuine DLV11J cab kit about 40 years ago. However, I can= recollect nothing but home brew substitutes / replacements thereafter; the c= olor code being driven by the colors of stock 3-core cable. FWIW VanDamme au= dio cable makes nice 232 cables (very flexible), drain as ground : e.g. https= ://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/audio-cable/3658775 Finally, I shall relate a tale I was told in a bar. Once upon a time some a l= ady museum conservator was fussing over matching the paint color on Glen Doug= las' tender https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/62469-glen-douglas-n= br-256-lner-9256-lner-2469-br-62469/ An unkind soul pointed out that the pai= nt she wanted to match was from the 1959 refit, and that the old mens paint c= ould easily have been a different hue. Personaly, I would fuss over using th= e correct gauge of wire / crimps / housing and just make a note of the color = scheme. HtH; Martin -----Original Message----- From: Steve Malikoff via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 22 December 2022 03:16 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: steven(a)malikoff.com Subject: [cctalk] DLV11 M7940 SLU header wire colours? Sorry this post isn't about whether something is regarded as classic or not. I am almost done putting together a little 4-card Qbus machine using a H9281-= BA card frame. Eschewing a piece of plywood, the frame, power supply, fans, H= eeltoe POR board are all mounted on a clear acrylic A4-sized office 'In Tray'= I picked up at a recycling centre. Hence I've named it PERSPEX-11 :) So.. For a DLV11 EIA serial connection, I am about to wire up a fly lead cable to = go from an M7940 SLU (no dash version) 40-pin header to a DB25P. After finding the pinout on page 178 in the 1980 Interfaces Handbook, on head= er J1 I know only need the usual basic RS232 setup: J - Received Data F - Transmitted Data B - Signal Ground M to E loopback I have a blank 40-pin header shell and a pile of DuPont leads of all colours = ready to slot into their respective locations in the header. I could use any = colours but I'd really like to use the original colours for the above wires. So, the only wire colour reference in the handbook is for a J1 and J2 header = DRV11 pinout on page 275. Pin B is Black, and Transmit is Red but Pin J Recei= ve is marked as Orange/Ground, for that device. Also M and E don't have their= colours specified for the loopback wire. I've also looked at the Gunkies 'DEC asynchronous serial line pinout' page wh= ich has the pinout but it doesn't mention the original wire colours sadly. Could someone point me to what colours the M7940 cable should be? Thanks for any help, Steve. --===============7174385260994610300==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Dec 22 11:57:22 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] "Classic" RAM chips, #FREE, #RARE, #VINTAGE Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 05:56:56 -0600 Message-ID: <826370110.196177.1671710216644@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6829490268803554644==" --===============6829490268803554644== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think my original message didn't go through (forgot to select plain text in= stead of html.) If it did I apologize for spamming the list. I'm clearing out some clutter so I can get to some more clutter to clear it o= ut. Much of my clutter is classic computer related (at least by my definitio= n.) But it needs to go. I have an assortment of old dynamic RAM chips: 1M x 1 approx 35 256K x 4 approx 40 to 50 256K x 1 approx 80 to 100 They are various speeds, mostly between 100ns and 150 ns If anyone wants them, let me know. You pay shipping. Otherwise they go to t= he landfill. You can contact me off-list. Will I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla --===============6829490268803554644==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Dec 22 14:03:56 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Classic" RAM chips, #FREE, #RARE, #VINTAGE Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 09:03:29 -0500 Message-ID: <00b7fbb3-a06b-b6ba-450e-ce7102c991cb@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <826370110.196177.1671710216644@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5562120740172481964==" --===============5562120740172481964== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Will! I could use some 256x1 chips to upgrade and fix a pdp11/23+, 40 or so=20 would do it. US address, we could do a quick paypal for the shipping. Chris On 12/22/2022 6:56 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > I think my original message didn't go through (forgot to select plain text = instead of html.) If it did I apologize for spamming the list. >=20 > I'm clearing out some clutter so I can get to some more clutter to clear it= out. Much of my clutter is classic computer related (at least by my definit= ion.) But it needs to go. >=20 > I have an assortment of old dynamic RAM chips: > 1M x 1 approx 35 > 256K x 4 approx 40 to 50 > 256K x 1 approx 80 to 100 >=20 > They are various speeds, mostly between 100ns and 150 ns > If anyone wants them, let me know. You pay shipping. Otherwise they go to= the landfill. >=20 > You can contact me off-list. >=20 > Will >=20 >=20 > I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by ma= rried men. Nikola Tesla --===============5562120740172481964==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Dec 22 14:04:27 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Classic" RAM chips, #FREE, #RARE, #VINTAGE Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 09:04:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00b7fbb3-a06b-b6ba-450e-ce7102c991cb@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6004700157975025418==" --===============6004700157975025418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aw shoot, sorry that went to the whole list.... C --===============6004700157975025418==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Dec 22 14:27:13 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Classic" RAM chips, #FREE, #RARE, #VINTAGE Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 08:26:48 -0600 Message-ID: <1022981822.214565.1671719208570@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <826370110.196177.1671710216644@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1909114557956686617==" --===============1909114557956686617== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/22/2022 5:56 AM CST Will Cooke via cctalk w= rote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > I have an assortment of old dynamic RAM chips: > 1M x 1 approx 35 > 256K x 4 approx 40 to 50 > 256K x 1 approx 80 to 100 >=20 The RAM chips are all spoken for.=20 I also have a selection of old PC CPUs ranging from 8088s and V20 compatible = to early Pentium and compatibles (e.g. AMD K6) If anyone is interested conta= ct me off list. I have about 15 total. I can do a quick inventory if anyone= is interested. Will --===============1909114557956686617==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Thu Dec 22 15:25:53 2022 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: unpleasant odor from VT100 Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 15:25:28 +0000 Message-ID: <72aeafe846ff4f63bfdf0b55a551c78d@WINHEXBEEU125.win.mail> In-Reply-To: <01SLQHK13T548WYOLI@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4214258449414420153==" --===============4214258449414420153== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter If you are still listening through the "on topic" noise - see below Martin >>I had something similar with a VT220. I didn't get around to investigating= it before the flyback transformer failed :-( >>I can only suggest to run it for a short time with the cover off and the li= ghts out while looking for any glows / >>discharges around the flyback transf= ormer, the EHT cable, the EHT connector on the tube and the tube base connect= or. >>Regards, >>Peter Coghlan. >>Ps: Anyone got a flyback transformer for a VT220? I don't have a laid apart flyback transformer, but I could provide a VT220 of= the YMMV kind. I'm in Dorset, UK, please reply off list. Best Regards Martin --===============4214258449414420153==-- From brain@jbrain.com Thu Dec 22 15:52:30 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 09:52:03 -0600 Message-ID: <21ac6417-9de8-8405-6171-a56e718f98cc@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5677468793360207847==" --===============5677468793360207847== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/22/2022 4:08 AM, Cedric Amand via cctalk wrote: > Hey everyone, No - I won't ask if this is on topic or not :) I'm currently = reparing an ALPS plotter ( a Tandy "ce 150" equivalent ) and it's not the fir= st time I face the same problem ; how to replace NiCD batteries. In the past = what I did is actually order new NiCd ( you can still find them here in Europ= e, well actually out of europe but in eastern countries close to europe ) How= ever they are at best NOS nowadays, that does "work" enough for moderate use = (I've done that on vintage laptops) This time I'd like to go a bit beyond tha= t and replace the NiCd with modern NiMH (the plotter coils and motors will be= nefit the extra power) However the trickle chagre of NiCd applied to NiMH wil= l either kill my batteries or kill me in a house fire. I see small $1 NiMH 5S= charging boards on Aliexpress, I thought I might use that, try to shove it i= t the CE150 (or other devcies with the same problem) TL-DR : Before I re inve= nt the wheel here ; Has anyone developed a proper way to replace NiCd with N > > iMH in vintage (mostly portable) equipment ? And I mean not simply swapping= the batteries, I don't want that, I want a proper charge process. I apologize that I don't have an answer to the main question on how to=20 upgrade from NiCD to NiMH, as I considered it for a similar portable=20 printer a few years back, but decided I was not willing to incur the=20 risk for the usage I envisioned. My comment has more to do with the statements about NiCD batteries you=20 made.=C2=A0 Is there a size constraint that hinders finding new cells to use?= =20 I find brand new NiCD batteries of quite a few sizes all over, as many=20 folks use them to re-pack portable tool batteries and other similar=20 uses.=C2=A0 I've repacked quite a few NICD containing systems (Old HP=20 portable computer, camcorder, printers) with these new NiCDs, which all=20 are smaller, have more storage capacity, and are brand new. If you decide to continue with NiCD and send cell dimensions, I'm happy=20 to see what I can find that's new. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============5677468793360207847==-- From cedric@cedric.net Thu Dec 22 16:02:51 2022 From: Cedric Amand To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 17:02:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <21ac6417-9de8-8405-6171-a56e718f98cc@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0203402154166722424==" --===============0203402154166722424== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jim, Maybe this is specific to europe but NiCds are hard to come by here, = they are prohibited since 2008 And even more prohibited since 2017 ( they als= o exclude medical equipment ) I used to source them in ex-ussr countries but = even there they are hard to come by nowadays, quite expensive, and usually ne= w old stock from 10+ years ago which hardly qualifies as renewing your batter= y pack, even if it's usually better than the 40+ years batteries. On top of t= hat they are usually 700mAh, which isn't much by today's standards I'll be tr= ying to shove 2400mAh NiMH in my CE150, the question remains, do I keep the N= iCd trickle charge (many people did and seem to stil be alive) or do I go the= extra mile and use a proper NiMh charger ( that'll blink when batteries are = full and stop the charge ) You could also argue wether or not a $1 nimh charg= er from Aliexpress does any good to my safety. I'm surprised "replacing nicd = with modern equivalents" doesn't seem to have much attention Le 2022-12-22 16= :52, Jim Brain via cctalk a =C3=A9crit : > > On 12/= 22/2022 4:08 AM, Cedric Amand via cctalk wrote: > > Hey everyone, No - I won'= t ask if this is on topic or not :) I'm currently reparing an ALPS plotter ( = a Tandy "ce 150" equivalent ) and it's not the first time I face the same pro= blem ; how to replace NiCD batteries. In the past what I did is actually orde= r new NiCd ( you can still find them here in Europe, well actually out of eur= ope but in eastern countries close to europe ) However they are at best NOS n= owadays, that does "work" enough for moderate use (I've done that on vintage = laptops) This time I'd like to go a bit beyond that and replace the NiCd with= modern NiMH (the plotter coils and motors will benefit the extra power) Howe= ver the trickle chagre of NiCd applied to NiMH will either kill my batteries = or kill me in a house fire. I see small $1 NiMH 5S charging boards on Aliexpr= ess, I thought I might use that, try to shove it it the CE150 (or other devci= es with the same problem) TL-DR : Before I re invent the wheel here ; Has any= one developed a proper way to replace NiCd with N > > > > iMH in vintage (mos= tly portable) equipment ? And I mean not simply swapping the batteries, I don= 't want that, I want a proper charge process. > > I apologize that I don't ha= ve an answer to the main question on how to > upgrade from NiCD to NiMH, as I= considered it for a similar portable > printer a few years back, but decided= I was not willing to incur the > risk for the usage I envisioned. > > My com= ment has more to do with the statements about NiCD batteries you > made. Is t= here a size constraint that hinders finding new cells to use? > I find brand = new NiCD batteries of quite a few sizes all over, as many > folks use them to= re-pack portable tool batteries and other similar > uses. I've repacked quit= e a few NICD containing systems (Old HP > portable computer, camcorder, print= ers) with these new NiCDs, which all > are smaller, have more storage capacit= y, and are brand new. > > If you decide to continue with NiCD and send cell d= imensions, I'm happy > to see what I can find that's new. > > Jim > > -- > Ji= m Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > --===============0203402154166722424==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Dec 22 16:10:23 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 10:09:53 -0600 Message-ID: <359908721.237997.1671725393218@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4988986174607772849==" --===============4988986174607772849== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/22/2022 10:02 AM CST Cedric Amand via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi Jim, Maybe this is specific to europe but NiCds are hard to come by here= , they are prohibited since 2008 And even more prohibited since 2017 ( they a= lso exclude medical equipment ) I used to source them in ex-ussr countries bu= t even there they are hard to come by nowadays, quite expensive, and usually = new old stock from 10+ years ago which hardly qualifies as renewing your batt= ery pack, even if it's usually better than the 40+ years batteries. On top of= that they are usually 700mAh, which isn't much by today's standards I'll be = trying to shove 2400mAh NiMH in my CE150, the question remains, do I keep the= NiCd trickle charge (many people did and seem to stil be alive) or do I go t= he extra mile and use a proper NiMh charger ( that'll blink when batteries ar= e full and stop the charge ) You could also argue wether or not a $1 nimh cha= rger from Aliexpress does any good to my safety. I'm surprised "replacing nic= d with modern equivalents" doesn't seem to have much attention Le 2022-12- 22 16:52,=20 Hi Cedric, I can't answer your question either; I've dealt with the same dilemma on a f= ew occasions. But as Jim mentioned, I have not had trouble getting NiCds her= e in the US (new from China.) However, the reason I'm posting is that there is a website with tons of good = information on different battery types, including charging, that may or may n= ot be of some use to you https://batteryuniversity.com/articles Perhaps you can find some info there that helps. Will --===============4988986174607772849==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Dec 22 16:12:43 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Classic" RAM chips, #FREE, #RARE, #VINTAGE Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 10:12:21 -0600 Message-ID: <1466356577.238644.1671725541501@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <1022981822.214565.1671719208570@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8471558921184054561==" --===============8471558921184054561== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 > I also have a selection of old PC CPUs ranging from 8088s and V20 compatibl= e to early Pentium and compatibles (e.g. AMD K6) If anyone is interested cont= act me off list. I have about 15 total. I can do a quick inventory if anyone = is interested. >=20 > Will The CPUs are now spoken for. But there is likely to be some more "treasure" = buried around here, so don't go away :-) Will --===============8471558921184054561==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Dec 22 16:58:55 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 08:49:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <359908721.237997.1671725393218@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1298808603105700963==" --===============1298808603105700963== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I can't speak with any authority on the NiMH vs. NiCd substitution, except that I've replaced them on low-draw devices and used the same charger.  After 20 years of doing this, I can't claim to have destroyed any NiMH, though I can certainly appreciate the self-limiting of overcharge on NiCd cells. On some small tools taking NiCds, however, I've substituted Li-ion rechargeables (3.6v->3 NiCd) and used the low-cost charger PCBs that are usually sold as 3 or 4 in a snap-apart package.   Those have worked well for me.   I wonder if changing a couple of resistors on those could suit NiMH charging. FWIW, I've salvaged the Li-ion cells from discarded vaping e-cigs.    Those generally are fairly high quality and run about 600 maH capacity at 3.6V.  Why they're used in a non-rechargable application is anyone's guess. --Chuck --===============1298808603105700963==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Dec 22 17:18:08 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 09:17:30 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7913043234109047702==" --===============7913043234109047702== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 8:58 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Why they're used in a non-rechargable application is anyone's > guess. > Probably because of the characteristic of their discharge in conjunction with the heating coil. Sellam > --===============7913043234109047702==-- From fritzm@fritzm.org Thu Dec 22 17:48:57 2022 From: Fritz Mueller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLV11 M7940 SLU header wire colours? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 09:48:20 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6a13e36b02237f8c5288a1acffb9e08e.squirrel@webmail04b.register.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6139079972868078544==" --===============6139079972868078544== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 21, 2022, at 7:16 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >=20 > For a DLV11 EIA serial connection, I am about to wire up a fly lead cable t= o go from an M7940 SLU (no dash version) 40-pin header to a DB25P =E2=80=A6 I= could use any colours but I'd really like to use the original colours for th= e above =E2=80=A6 The BC05C cable is described in full, including wire colors, in the docs for = the Unibus DL11 (for example, PDF page 21 of the engineering drawings at http= ://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/DL11_schem_Mar78.pdf, or table 3-6 on PDF= page 34 of the user manual at http://www.bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.u= q.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-HDLAA-B-D%20DL11%20Asynchronous%20Line%20Interface%20Manu= al.pdf) Specifically, for the pins asked: J - receive data - orange/white F - transmit data - white/blue E/M - interlock - red The ground wiring is a bit involved: Pin 7 on the D-sub is connected multiple: - cable shield to Berg B - brown/white to Berg UU - black jumper to D-sub pin 1 =E2=80=A6and pin 1 on the D-sub is connected multiple: - cable shield to Berg A - blue/white to Berg VV - black jumper to D-sub pin 7 --===============6139079972868078544==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Thu Dec 22 17:57:14 2022 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 09:50:59 -0800 Message-ID: <92E7E0A2-9B3B-455E-A3FE-E533A3B77B0C@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1513688350240369644==" --===============1513688350240369644== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anything up to 64-bit has been on topic over the life of this list. Though 6= 4-bit initially was pushing it, less so now, as I=E2=80=99d definitely consid= er something like a Sun Ultra 2, or DEC Alpha to be very much on topic. I de= finitely participated in discussions of early Macintosh systems back around = =E2=80=9997. I doubt I participated much (if at all) in discussions of early= PC=E2=80=99s. I=E2=80=99ve always viewed discussion of off-topic PC=E2=80= =99s to be of more interest, though I am starting to look at vintage PC=E2=80= =99s a bit differently (simply due to wanting to still access some vintage so= ftware, and needing to move off Parallels Desktop on my Mac). While I probably wouldn=E2=80=99t want to participate in a discussion of them= , I=E2=80=99d argue that a =E2=80=9CWillamette=E2=80=9D Pentium 4 is sufficie= ntly vintage, and something of an odd-ball today. Same with any PPC based Ma= c. While I have Intel based Mac=E2=80=99s that are 10+ old, I don=E2=80=99t = consider them to be classic, especially as one is still in nearly daily use. I like your proposal of, "don't bring up boring modern topics that have a bet= ter home somewhere else." Having seen another of your posts, I=E2=80=99m left to wonder how many of us = had our eyes opened by this list back in 1997. In my case having worked on s= ome systems decidedly =E2=80=9Cvintage=E2=80=9D systems, prior to joining the= list helped spark my interest. That and my love of Operating Systems. I wa= nt to say that I found the list after picking up my first couple vintage comp= uters, back when you could find them at Goodwill cheap.=20 Zane > On Dec 21, 2022, at 11:58 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > This list was never declared to be exclusively an 8-bit affair. I'm not > sure where you're getting that from. From the get go in 1997 when Bill > Whitson founded the list, all computers of a vintage or obsolete nature > were game for discussion. It's only after a few years and time marching on > with its inevitable technological progress, and companies that were once > industry stalwarts started to fall by the wayside, that we began to > question what the cut-off is. And as far as the IBM PC, it was definitely > vintage by the time the list was launched. The objections back in the day > as I remember them were to questions pertaining to modern x86 or Macintosh > systems that had plenty of forums elsewhere on the internet to engage in > discussions of those (i.e. this is not a tech support forum) (...unless > it's vintage tech). These days, however, I think it's fine to discuss > 286/386/486 and even Pentium (below the II, at least) systems because > they're sufficiently "vintage" now in the sense of the word that I think > brings focus to the purpose and nature of this hobby. >=20 > In the interest of putting this thread to rest, if I were to call the rule, > I'd make it simple: don't bring up boring modern topics that have a better > home somewhere else. >=20 > And with that, I hope we can move on, or at least morph this thread into a > more interesting topic. >=20 > Sellam --===============1513688350240369644==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Dec 22 17:58:13 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 09:57:35 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <92E7E0A2-9B3B-455E-A3FE-E533A3B77B0C@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8416038356664420255==" --===============8416038356664420255== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 9:51 AM Zane Healy wrote: > > Having seen another of your posts, I=E2=80=99m left to wonder how many of u= s had > our eyes opened by this list back in 1997. In my case having worked on > some systems decidedly =E2=80=9Cvintage=E2=80=9D systems, prior to joining = the list helped > spark my interest. That and my love of Operating Systems. I want to say > that I found the list after picking up my first couple vintage computers, > back when you could find them at Goodwill cheap. > We all in some way owe a debt of gratitude to Bill Whitson (wherever he is these days) for bringing us all together and being the impetus for so much of what this hobby has become today. Sellam --===============8416038356664420255==-- From marvin@west.net Thu Dec 22 19:19:51 2022 From: Marvin Johnston To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 11:12:45 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2939555440407043620==" --===============2939555440407043620== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After all is said and done, my observations since the time this listserver was up in Washington is that anything OT has a very short "shelf life." That would suggest most people here have a working brain and thus, like the definition of pornography, they know OT when they see it. A long way of saying OT or not is being well served by the choice of most people here on what they post... with the exception of the waaay too long discussion, Re: what is on topic?, currently taking place. --===============2939555440407043620==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Dec 22 19:26:18 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 11:25:40 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4150048893629761588==" --===============4150048893629761588== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 11:19 AM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > After all is said and done, my observations since the time this > listserver was up in Washington is that anything OT has a very short > "shelf life." That would suggest most people here have a working brain > and thus, like the definition of pornography, they know OT when they see > it. > Hi Marvin. Except they invariably end up carrying on way too long, like this discussion has :D Sellam --===============4150048893629761588==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Dec 22 19:30:09 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:29:30 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0624345970519365172==" --===============0624345970519365172== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "what is vintage" has been a discussion since the beginning. It's when no one asks that I wonder if anyone cares. So I am ok with it. :-) b On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 2:25 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 11:19 AM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > After all is said and done, my observations since the time this > > listserver was up in Washington is that anything OT has a very short > > "shelf life." That would suggest most people here have a working brain > > and thus, like the definition of pornography, they know OT when they see > > it. > > > > Hi Marvin. > > Except they invariably end up carrying on way too long, like this > discussion has :D > > Sellam > --===============0624345970519365172==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Thu Dec 22 19:30:34 2022 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:29:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4546663890981260578==" --===============4546663890981260578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 5:35 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > We used to shun anything newer than and including the IBM PC but > time.marches on. You're safe if you discuss systems produced before 1990. > After that put an OT in the front of your subject so as not to offend the > purists. Personally I think anything built after 1995 is too new for > cctalk, but thats just me. As mentioned elsewhere, the old "10 year" rule is long irrelevant. I think 1995 is a good general cut-off for a strictly time-based threshold, but it's not a hard boundary - PPC Macs I would think should still be in bounds. A softer rule would probably be "(nearly) anything goes except nearly-current Windows PCs". If a machine can run WinXP, it's too new. Also as mentioned, there are plenty of lists about modern PCs. -ethan --===============4546663890981260578==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Dec 22 19:42:24 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 19:41:53 +0000 Message-ID: <1971869897.2633062.1671738113899@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6242025511755675658==" --===============6242025511755675658== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here here!=20 On Thursday, December 22, 2022, 02:29:48 PM EST, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: "what is vintage" has been a discussion since the beginning. It's when no one asks that I wonder if anyone cares. So I am ok with it. :-) b On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 2:25 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 11:19 AM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > After all is said and done, my observations since the time this > > listserver was up in Washington is that anything OT has a very short > > "shelf life." That would suggest most people here have a working brain > > and thus, like the definition of pornography, they know OT when they see > > it. > > > > Hi Marvin. > > Except they invariably end up carrying on way too long, like this > discussion has :D > > Sellam > =20 --===============6242025511755675658==-- From shumaker@att.net Thu Dec 22 19:49:35 2022 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 11:49:02 -0800 Message-ID: <51fb62d5-05b5-c31f-0a99-d99716b20953@att.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4087931139930394711==" --===============4087931139930394711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No kidding!   It has been a while.  I've pretty much been lurking without much to say here since I lost all my toys in the fires two years ago.   Managed to replace a couple Heathkit units since then but with prices what they are, it'll never be what it was. I did score a PET 2001-8 that seems complete to include the keyboard (with keys missing).  Been watching EBay for parts boxes but even those are usually serious money now. I'll keep watching though! I was hoping someone had already put some effort into 3d printing the keys as a solution - figured someone here would know about if it was done.  Mike Stein pointed me at a complete set of replacement labels for the key tops so that's start. Enjoy!     Happy Holidays! Steve On 12/21/22 11:40 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Hi Steve. > > (Long time no talk.) > > My suggestion to you, as abhorrent as it may seem, is to buy a complete PET > 2001, take your 3 keycaps, and part the rest out. Preferably one that's in > crap shape. They aren't that uncommon. > > Sellam > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 10:56 AM steve shumaker via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> OK.. Now that you mention it, I do have a CBM PET question. I'm >> searching for replacement key tops for the chicklet keyboard. There are >> stems available (apparently 3d printed) on EPay but no caps. Any >> suggestions on where to look? I have the keyboard and it seems a >> little silly to spend $300 on EPay if I only need 3 keys >> >> Steve >> >> On 12/20/22 10:19 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >>> On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>>> Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist >>>> >>> As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet >>> another list for them. There are many fine forums for all of these >>> machines. The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't >>> ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about >>> these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed. >>> >>> >> --===============4087931139930394711==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Dec 22 19:50:54 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:42:20 -0500 Message-ID: <07F8D50D-E39D-4F0E-B021-93E33E9ACA26@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4953301916243269716==" --===============4953301916243269716== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 22, 2022, at 11:49 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I can't speak with any authority on the NiMH vs. NiCd substitution, > except that I've replaced them on low-draw devices and used the same > charger. After 20 years of doing this, I can't claim to have destroyed > any NiMH, though I can certainly appreciate the self-limiting of > overcharge on NiCd cells. I just read the battery chapter of the ARRL Amateur Radio Handboo, which disc= usses this particular point at some length. Among many other points it says (a) you can trickle charge a NiCd but not a N= iMH, and (b) NiMH requires a more complex charging algorithm than NiCd, so th= at NiMH chargers are also capable of charging NiCd batteries safely, but NiCd= chargers cannot charge NiMH cells without the risk of damage. I suspect NiMH charger circuits can be found. Buying $3 Chinese ones may wor= k, or not; I keep remembering that China disallows selling unsafe equipment w= ithin the country but doesn't have any rules against exporting such things. paul --===============4953301916243269716==-- From shumaker@att.net Thu Dec 22 19:52:25 2022 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PET chicklet key labels Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 11:51:54 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6411149375620939563==" --===============6411149375620939563== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks -  I've never seen that before.   It'll definitely help with the restoration. Steve On 12/21/22 11:45 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > No personal experience but maybe this'll help: > https://corei64.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=285 > > Sorry for encouraging inappropriate threads ;-) > > m > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 1:56 PM steve shumaker via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> OK.. Now that you mention it, I do have a CBM PET question. I'm >> searching for replacement key tops for the chicklet keyboard. There are >> stems available (apparently 3d printed) on EPay but no caps. Any >> suggestions on where to look? I have the keyboard and it seems a >> little silly to spend $300 on EPay if I only need 3 keys >> >> Steve >> >> On 12/20/22 10:19 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >>> On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>>> Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist >>>> >>> As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet >>> another list for them. There are many fine forums for all of these >>> machines. The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't >>> ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about >>> these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed. >>> >>> >> --===============6411149375620939563==-- From shumaker@att.net Thu Dec 22 20:11:16 2022 From: steve shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 12:10:44 -0800 Message-ID: <19bd7602-7793-0044-ba40-111e6af40500@att.net> In-Reply-To: <51fb62d5-05b5-c31f-0a99-d99716b20953@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3117150056475526483==" --===============3117150056475526483== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit well..  apologies - this was not intended for the list. Steve On 12/22/22 11:49 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > No kidding!   It has been a while.  I've pretty much been lurking > without much to say here since I lost all my toys in the fires two > years ago.   Managed to replace a couple Heathkit units since then but > with prices what they are, it'll never be what it was. > > I did score a PET 2001-8 that seems complete to include the keyboard > (with keys missing).  Been watching EBay for parts boxes but even > those are usually serious money now. I'll keep watching though! I was > hoping someone had already put some effort into 3d printing the keys > as a solution - figured someone here would know about if it was done.  > Mike Stein pointed me at a complete set of replacement labels for the > key tops so that's start. > > Enjoy!     Happy Holidays! > > Steve > > > On 12/21/22 11:40 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> Hi Steve. >> >> (Long time no talk.) >> >> My suggestion to you, as abhorrent as it may seem, is to buy a >> complete PET >> 2001, take your 3 keycaps, and part the rest out.  Preferably one >> that's in >> crap shape.  They aren't that uncommon. >> >> Sellam >> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 10:56 AM steve shumaker via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> OK..    Now that you mention it, I do have a CBM PET question.  I'm >>> searching for replacement key tops for the chicklet keyboard. There are >>> stems available (apparently 3d printed) on EPay but no caps. Any >>> suggestions on where to look?    I have the keyboard and it seems a >>> little silly to spend $300 on EPay if I only need 3 keys >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> On 12/20/22 10:19 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist >>>>> >>>> As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet >>>> another list for them.  There are many fine forums for all of these >>>> machines.  The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't >>>> ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about >>>> these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed. >>>> >>>> >>> > --===============3117150056475526483==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Dec 22 20:33:57 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 12:33:28 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <07F8D50D-E39D-4F0E-B021-93E33E9ACA26@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0112177516891111455==" --===============0112177516891111455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/22/22 11:42, Paul Koning wrote: > I just read the battery chapter of the ARRL Amateur Radio Handboo, which di= scusses this particular point at some length. > > Among many other points it says (a) you can trickle charge a NiCd but not a= NiMH, and (b) NiMH requires a more complex charging algorithm than NiCd, so = that NiMH chargers are also capable of charging NiCd batteries safely, but Ni= Cd chargers cannot charge NiMH cells without the risk of damage. > > I suspect NiMH charger circuits can be found. Buying $3 Chinese ones may w= ork, or not; I keep remembering that China disallows selling unsafe equipment= within the country but doesn't have any rules against exporting such things. > > =09 I've done a little reading on the subject of NiMH charging.=C2=A0 The nub of it appears to be that slow charge is best and should be discontinued when the cell voltage reaches 1.55V--the idea being to limit the temperature rise within the cell.=C2=A0 I've seen circuits using discrete components (transistors) and those adapting voltage regulators and even microcontrollers.=C2=A0 I haven't run across a single IC dedicated to the process yet--I suspect there must be one out there somewhere.=C2=A0=C2=A0 My driveway blinking beacon lights seem to do quite well charging them from a plain old PV solar cell--they've lasted for years. All of this is child's play when compared to the problem of charging Li-ion cells.=C2=A0 There, ICs like the TP4056 appear to reign supreme. FWIW, --Chuck --===============0112177516891111455==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Thu Dec 22 20:38:45 2022 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Gesswein board with RQDX3 Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:30:10 -0600 Message-ID: <6e0ee5cc-6b94-3e59-7930-8b25a34ee81c@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1758510873047654377==" --===============1758510873047654377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C2=A0I'm using several of these, on PRO380s, and on RQDX3s on MicroVAXes and=C2=A0 a BA23 11/73. Lessee, did you create the container file for the disk? And make sure it's the same file name used in the command line that sta= rts up the service? Did you do the command that tells the service to start at system boot time? And, my favorite problem in setting these up - are the cables plugged in right on both ends of both cables? I had to span the vector space of linear combinations of plug orientations to get it to work, since my cables didn't have keyways, and how to plug 'em in was not obvious. When it works, it works great. Only problem is that I have to pause a bit after powering on the system, to let the automatic file backup finish before the 11/73 tries to access it. If you don't get anywhere, David Gesswein=C2=A0 is very helpful sorting out problems. -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============1758510873047654377==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Dec 22 21:05:37 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 13:04:55 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <51fb62d5-05b5-c31f-0a99-d99716b20953@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1233864655717895751==" --===============1233864655717895751== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 11:49 AM steve shumaker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > No kidding! It has been a while. I've pretty much been lurking > without much to say here since I lost all my toys in the fires two years > ago. Managed to replace a couple Heathkit units since then but with > prices what they are, it'll never be what it was. > Whaaaaat? I'll e-mail you privately. > I did score a PET 2001-8 that seems complete to include the keyboard > (with keys missing). Been watching EBay for parts boxes but even those > are usually serious money now. I'll keep watching though! I was hoping > someone had already put some effort into 3d printing the keys as a > solution - figured someone here would know about if it was done. Mike > Stein pointed me at a complete set of replacement labels for the key > tops so that's start. > Ask on the VCFed forums about 3D printed keycaps. I'm guessing someone has surely done that by now. If not, you can probably find someone who can and will. As far as PET 2001 prices, they're still lower than I think they should be but they're definitely climbing. You bought that one from me way back when for a good price. Sad to hear it is no longer. I sold one earlier in the year that had been heavily modified into a portable unit but I hope it didn't get parted out (however I think that's why the guy bought it). It was an interesting unit. In fact, I'll contact that buyer and see if he did end up disassembling it. If he did, maybe he has some extra keycaps for you. Sellam --===============1233864655717895751==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Dec 22 21:05:56 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 13:05:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19bd7602-7793-0044-ba40-111e6af40500@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8746205750261776380==" --===============8746205750261776380== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops. On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 12:10 PM steve shumaker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > well.. apologies - this was not intended for the list. > > Steve > > On 12/22/22 11:49 AM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > > No kidding! It has been a while. I've pretty much been lurking > > without much to say here since I lost all my toys in the fires two > > years ago. Managed to replace a couple Heathkit units since then but > > with prices what they are, it'll never be what it was. > > > > I did score a PET 2001-8 that seems complete to include the keyboard > > (with keys missing). Been watching EBay for parts boxes but even > > those are usually serious money now. I'll keep watching though! I was > > hoping someone had already put some effort into 3d printing the keys > > as a solution - figured someone here would know about if it was done. > > Mike Stein pointed me at a complete set of replacement labels for the > > key tops so that's start. > > > > Enjoy! Happy Holidays! > > > > Steve > > > > > > On 12/21/22 11:40 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi Steve. > >> > >> (Long time no talk.) > >> > >> My suggestion to you, as abhorrent as it may seem, is to buy a > >> complete PET > >> 2001, take your 3 keycaps, and part the rest out. Preferably one > >> that's in > >> crap shape. They aren't that uncommon. > >> > >> Sellam > >> > >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 10:56 AM steve shumaker via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> OK.. Now that you mention it, I do have a CBM PET question. I'm > >>> searching for replacement key tops for the chicklet keyboard. There are > >>> stems available (apparently 3d printed) on EPay but no caps. Any > >>> suggestions on where to look? I have the keyboard and it seems a > >>> little silly to spend $300 on EPay if I only need 3 keys > >>> > >>> Steve > >>> > >>> On 12/20/22 10:19 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > >>>> On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > >>>>> Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist > >>>>> > >>>> As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet > >>>> another list for them. There are many fine forums for all of these > >>>> machines. The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't > >>>> ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about > >>>> these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > --===============8746205750261776380==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Dec 22 21:29:31 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 15:29:08 -0600 Message-ID: <1004210507.305275.1671744548536@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6286684750707628291==" --===============6286684750707628291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/22/2022 2:33 PM CST Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > I haven't run across a single IC dedicated to the > process yet--I suspect there must be one out there somewhere. >=20 > FWIW, > --Chuck There are quite a few. Mouser lists 278 that claim NiMh capability. All but= 9 of those are multi-chemistry. https://www.mouser.com/c/semiconductors/integrated-circuits-ics/power-managem= ent-ics/battery-management/?battery%20type=3DAlkaline%2C%20NiCd%2C%20NiMH%7C~= Lead%20Acid%2C%20LiFePO4%2C%20Li-Ion%2C%20Li-Polymer%2C%20Li-Phosphate%2C%20N= iCd%2C%20NiMH~~Lead%20Acid%2C%20NiCd%2C%20NiMH%7C~LiFePO4%2C%20Li-Ion%2C%20Li= -Polymer%2C%20NiCd%2C%20NiMH%2C%20SuperCap~~LiFePO4%2C%20Li-Ion%2C%20Li-Polym= er%2C%20NiMH%7C~Li-Ion%2C%20Li-Polymer%2C%20NiCd%2C%20NiMH%7C~Li-Ion%2C%20NiC= d%2C%20NiMH~~Li-Ion%2C%20NiMH%7C~NiCd%2C%20NiMH~~NiMH&product=3DCharge%20Mana= gement&rp=3Dsemiconductors%2Fintegrated-circuits-ics%2Fpower-management-ics%2= Fbattery-management%7C~Battery%20Type&sort=3Dpricing Will --===============6286684750707628291==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Dec 22 21:30:46 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 13:30:17 -0800 Message-ID: <378e33a3-4f98-ae20-dce8-02ab176a2764@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <07F8D50D-E39D-4F0E-B021-93E33E9ACA26@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1695555741364353314==" --===============1695555741364353314== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/22/22 11:42, Paul Koning wrote: > I just read the battery chapter of the ARRL Amateur Radio Handboo, > which discusses this particular point at some length. > Among many other points it says (a) you can trickle charge a NiCd but not a= NiMH, and (b) NiMH requires a more complex charging algorithm than NiCd, so = that NiMH chargers are also capable of charging NiCd batteries safely, but Ni= Cd chargers cannot charge NiMH cells without the risk of damage. > > I suspect NiMH charger circuits can be found. Buying $3 Chinese ones may w= ork, or not; I keep remembering that China disallows selling unsafe equipment= within the country but doesn't have any rules against exporting such things. > > A good read on the issues of NiMH battery charging can be read here: https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/electronic_components/battery-tech= nology/nimh-nickel-metal-hydride-charging.php It pretty much says that "you're damned if you and damned if you don't".=C2=A0=C2=A0 I wonder how many really good NiMH battery chargers are o= ut there.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Give me LiFePO=E2=82=84 any day! --Chuck --===============1695555741364353314==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Thu Dec 22 21:32:14 2022 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 13:24:21 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6089245029357944032==" --===============6089245029357944032== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dec 22, 2022, at 11:29 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 5:35 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: >> We used to shun anything newer than and including the IBM PC but >> time.marches on. You're safe if you discuss systems produced before 1990. >> After that put an OT in the front of your subject so as not to offend the >> purists. Personally I think anything built after 1995 is too new for >> cctalk, but thats just me. >=20 > As mentioned elsewhere, the old "10 year" rule is long irrelevant. >=20 > I think 1995 is a good general cut-off for a strictly time-based > threshold, but it's not a hard boundary - PPC Macs I would think > should still be in bounds. >=20 > A softer rule would probably be "(nearly) anything goes except > nearly-current Windows PCs". If a machine can run WinXP, it's too > new. Also as mentioned, there are plenty of lists about modern PCs. >=20 > -Ethan For PC=E2=80=99s, being able to run WinXP is an interesting cutoff, and I thi= nk makes sense. Though in my case, my need for WinXP is due to a 35mm film s= canner that only works with the OEM software, and that only runs on WinXP. C= urrently I use it via Parallels Desktop running on a 2010 Mac Pro. People lu= cky enough to have drum scanners run them with potentially older hardware, es= pecially if connected to a Mac. I=E2=80=99ll argue that Intel-based Macs or newer are off-topic, and I say th= at even though I=E2=80=99m a heavy user of Macs, even 10+ year old ones, incl= uding having software that only runs on even older ones. I=E2=80=99d also argue pretty much any DEC Alpha, Sun, HP-UX, SGI IRIX, or no= n-PC IBM system is on topic. Even the current IBM z16 Mainframe is something= of a classic in my mind. :-) Zane --===============6089245029357944032==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Dec 22 21:47:51 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Using Gesswein board with RQDX3 Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 16:47:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6e0ee5cc-6b94-3e59-7930-8b25a34ee81c@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6283492252487547309==" --===============6283492252487547309== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 22, 2022, at 3:30 PM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I'm using several of these, on PRO380s, and on RQDX3s on MicroVAXes > and a BA23 11/73. Lessee, did you create the container file for the > disk? And make sure it's the same file name used in the command line that s= tarts > up the service? Did you do the command that tells the service to start > at system boot time? And, my favorite problem in setting these up - are > the cables plugged in right on both ends of both cables? I had to span > the vector space of linear combinations of plug orientations to get it > to work, since my cables didn't have keyways, and how to plug 'em in was > not obvious. When it works, it works great. Only problem is that I have > to pause a bit after powering on the system, to let the automatic file > backup finish before the 11/73 tries to access it. If you don't get > anywhere, David Gesswein is very helpful sorting out problems. Worth pointing out is that RDxx device sizes on RQDX3 and on the Pro are not = the same, because the Pro always uses 16 sectors per track even if the device= has longer tracks. Also: the device needs to be formatted. paul --===============6283492252487547309==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Dec 22 21:51:22 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 16:50:31 -0500 Message-ID: <3B012017-E954-4E67-ABD5-4F7B722AACDA@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <378e33a3-4f98-ae20-dce8-02ab176a2764@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7461793551957663298==" --===============7461793551957663298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 22, 2022, at 4:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >=20 > On 12/22/22 11:42, Paul Koning wrote: >> I just read the battery chapter of the ARRL Amateur Radio Handboo, which d= iscusses this particular point at some length. >> Among many other points it says (a) you can trickle charge a NiCd but not = a NiMH, and (b) NiMH requires a more complex charging algorithm than NiCd, so= that NiMH chargers are also capable of charging NiCd batteries safely, but N= iCd chargers cannot charge NiMH cells without the risk of damage. >>=20 >> I suspect NiMH charger circuits can be found. Buying $3 Chinese ones may = work, or not; I keep remembering that China disallows selling unsafe equipmen= t within the country but doesn't have any rules against exporting such things. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > A good read on the issues of NiMH battery charging can be read here: >=20 > https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/electronic_components/battery-te= chnology/nimh-nickel-metal-hydride-charging.php >=20 > It pretty much says that "you're damned if you and damned if you don't".=20 Yes, that looks similar to what I read. One interesting point in the discuss= ion I saw is that it said slow charging is not recommended for NiMH because t= he right way to detect end of charge is by voltage drop, and that drop is eve= n smaller if the charge rate is low. So to have reliable detection of "fully= charged" you need to go reasonably fast. Interesting. paul --===============7461793551957663298==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Dec 22 21:54:23 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 13:53:45 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2964918371196013181==" --===============2964918371196013181== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 1:31 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > For PC=E2=80=99s, being able to run WinXP is an interesting cutoff, and I t= hink > makes sense. Zane > You've apparently never heard of Tony Duell: last I read he was running Windows 98 on an IBM PC/XT or something like that :) Sellam --===============2964918371196013181==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Dec 22 22:36:54 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 22:36:24 +0000 Message-ID: <1466046948.2692570.1671748584764@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1466046948.2692570.1671748584764.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1133786468410176196==" --===============1133786468410176196== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I must have asked numerous times on numerous forums how this is done. Did you= ever take a close look at the paint on a 5150 or 5170 (or hell even any IBM = monitors that are age appropriate, but those aren't metal). Did you notive th= e wormy, orange pealy finish. I don't think anyone has seriously attempted to= explain how to accomplish that. It's not simply a sligjtly gritty texture as= in the case of modern atx cases, that can be done with a spray can, sort of. Do they simply cause the spray gun to spit on the final coat, perhaps while t= he previous coat is still tacky? --===============1133786468410176196==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Dec 22 22:39:14 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:38:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1466046948.2692570.1671748584764@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1238053045265000877==" --===============1238053045265000877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, I don't know specifically about the IBM PC, but I think what you're describing is powder coating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_coating Sellam On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 2:36 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > I must have asked numerous times on numerous forums how this is done. Did > you ever take a close look at the paint on a 5150 or 5170 (or hell even any > IBM monitors that are age appropriate, but those aren't metal). Did you > notive the wormy, orange pealy finish. I don't think anyone has seriously > attempted to explain how to accomplish that. It's not simply a sligjtly > gritty texture as in the case of modern atx cases, that can be done with a > spray can, sort of. > > Do they simply cause the spray gun to spit on the final coat, perhaps > while the previous coat is still tacky? > --===============1238053045265000877==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Thu Dec 22 22:40:46 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:40:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1466046948.2692570.1671748584764@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5744899482601863677==" --===============5744899482601863677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Traditionally Polane was used. (Sherwin Williams) Raptor is similar. I had a long discussion with their rep along the lines of "ok, but how much is the paint and how much is the application". It turns out it's a bit of both. Obviously you're not going to get texture with a very high pressure applicator. On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 2:36 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > I must have asked numerous times on numerous forums how this is done. Did > you ever take a close look at the paint on a 5150 or 5170 (or hell even any > IBM monitors that are age appropriate, but those aren't metal). Did you > notive the wormy, orange pealy finish. I don't think anyone has seriously > attempted to explain how to accomplish that. It's not simply a sligjtly > gritty texture as in the case of modern atx cases, that can be done with a > spray can, sort of. > > Do they simply cause the spray gun to spit on the final coat, perhaps > while the previous coat is still tacky? > --===============5744899482601863677==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Dec 22 22:41:48 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:41:23 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7036696271939158801==" --===============7036696271939158801== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > You've apparently never heard of Tony Duell: last I read he was running > Windows 98 on an IBM PC/XT or something like that :) Tony, are you around? My experience was that Windoze 3.00 was the last that could be installed on an 8088. Win 3.10 and above demanded at least a few K of RAM above the 1MB boundary. (Himem.sys, A20) You could easily get away (3.10, 3.11) with 512K plus 64K addressed with A20. There MIGHT be some clever tricks to fool the SETUP program, which also installed SMARTDRV. Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7036696271939158801==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Thu Dec 22 22:42:17 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:41:42 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3499779377876843643==" --===============3499779377876843643== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 2:38 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Chris, > > I don't know specifically about the IBM PC, but I think what you're > describing is powder coating. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_coating Powder coating is just a durable finish. It can be textured or flat. Polane and Raptor are urethenes. Usually catalyzed. --===============3499779377876843643==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Thu Dec 22 22:50:20 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:49:44 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7988497945158663488==" --===============7988497945158663488== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 2:41 PM Tony Jones wrote: > > Polane and Raptor are urethenes. Usually catalyzed. > https://industrial.sherwin-williams.com/na/us/en/general-industrial/catalog/p= roduct/products-by-industry.11543145/polane-t-polyurethane-enamel.9197969.html "Widely used for coating business machines and computers because of resistance to stains, chemicals and abrasion and for long-term durability - Texturing minimizes surface irregularities and provides a three-dimensional appearance" You'll want to be using a supplied air system to safely spray a 2K. --===============7988497945158663488==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Dec 22 23:02:27 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 15:02:01 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2403128020285493251==" --===============2403128020285493251== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> We used to shun anything newer than and including the IBM PC but >>> time.marches on. You're safe if you discuss systems produced before 1990. >>> After that put an OT in the front of your subject so as not to offend the >>> purists. Personally I think anything built after 1995 is too new for >>> cctalk, but thats just me. >> As mentioned elsewhere, the old "10 year" rule is long irrelevant. >> I think 1995 is a good general cut-off for a strictly time-based >> threshold, but it's not a hard boundary - PPC Macs I would think >> should still be in bounds. >> >> A softer rule would probably be "(nearly) anything goes except >> nearly-current Windows PCs". If a machine can run WinXP, it's too >> new. Also as mentioned, there are plenty of lists about modern PCs. On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > For PC’s, being able to run WinXP is an interesting cutoff, and I > think makes sense. Another possible exception for banning XP: I think that the OQO is interesting enough to call for inclusion. It is a handheld, running XP. Screen slides partway off to reveal a keyboard. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2403128020285493251==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Dec 22 23:15:28 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 23:15:01 +0000 Message-ID: <2073891804.2696114.1671750901247@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8735226298494152571==" --===============8735226298494152571== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So this polane stuff creates the texture when used with any airgun? Everythi= ng I have is small, not ideal for painting a car, but more then adequate for = covering a 5170 case. Artist equipment. And I have a somewhat larger gun that= has a gravity fed canister that can hold upwards of 4oz. of paint. The compr= essors I have can go from 20 to maybe 120psi iinm. The question is can this polane stuff be had in small quantities. And in the = color I want. What's a 2K? =20 --===============8735226298494152571==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Dec 22 23:17:52 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:34:40 -0800 Message-ID: <6d43e634-6671-5e46-c405-5d6563699c46@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <3B012017-E954-4E67-ABD5-4F7B722AACDA@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1677916355349718288==" --===============1677916355349718288== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/22/22 13:50, Paul Koning wrote: > Yes, that looks similar to what I read. One interesting point in the > discussion I saw is that it said slow charging is not recommended for > NiMH because the right way to detect end of charge is by voltage drop, > and that drop is even smaller if the charge rate is low. So to have > reliable detection of "fully charged" you need to go reasonably fast. > Interesting. What I gathered was that once a cell is fully charged, anything beyond that is converted into heat.  It also mentions that simply sticking a thermistor in the battery compartment is not a reliable way of gauging end-of-charge.  So charging at a very low rate (say, 0.01C) will probably not cause much in the way of heating, but will take forever, which explains my driveway lights--they charge during daylight hours and only discharge at night at a low rate (there's  an interesting circuit there that boosts the 1.2V and blinks 3 high-intensity LEDs about once per second.   Clearly, the little PV cells can't supply much current. The problem that I have with NiMH cells is that they do occasionally spring a leak, with a nasty cleanup job afterwards.  I've not run across a leaky Li-ion cell yet (knock on wood). That's not to say that Li-ion cells are without their quirks.  I recently almost discarded a AA-sized 14500 cell because the output voltage had suddenly dropped to the point where none of my chargers would even see it.  So I put it on a corner of my workbench against the time when I had accumulated several and could turn them in for disposal.  A couple of days ago, I picked up the cell and checked it with my voltmeter and it read 3.5V.  Put it in the charger, and slowly charged to capacity.   What happened during the month or so that it sat on my workbench, I cannot say. --Chuck --===============1677916355349718288==-- From brain@jbrain.com Thu Dec 22 23:30:54 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 17:30:18 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4833174028178483531==" --===============4833174028178483531== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/22/2022 5:02 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Another possible exception for banning XP: > I think that the OQO is interesting enough to call for inclusion. > It is a handheld, running XP.   Screen slides partway off to reveal a > keyboard. /me looks at his OQO 2, which still works (and has XP on it, as I recall).  Battery is no more, though. it has the docking station as well.  Bought new in 2005 or something. --===============4833174028178483531==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Dec 22 23:31:15 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 17:30:21 -0600 Message-ID: <846066875.320953.1671751821363@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <6d43e634-6671-5e46-c405-5d6563699c46@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6769452803720082055==" --===============6769452803720082055== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/22/2022 4:34 PM CST Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > That's not to say that Li-ion cells are without their quirks. I > recently almost discarded a AA-sized 14500 cell because the output > voltage had suddenly dropped to the point where none of my chargers > would even see it. So I put it on a corner of my workbench against the > time when I had accumulated several and could turn them in for > disposal. A couple of days ago, I picked up the cell and checked it > with my voltmeter and it read 3.5V. Put it in the charger, and slowly > charged to capacity. What happened during the month or so that it sat > on my workbench, I cannot say. >=20 > --Chuck A VERY large percentage of LiIon batteries have a protection circuit built in= to prevent over-discharge. Even a lot of the "standard" cell types (e.g. 18= 650s) The circuit disconnects the battery from its terminals if the voltage = drops too low, showing near 0 volts out. If it just barely meets the cutoff,= it may recover enough to re-activate the circuit, making it possible to rech= arge it. Often, you can open the case, skip over the circuit board to access= the battery cell directly, and add a small amount of charge to reactivate it= . Then it will work normally. I've done this a few times. Will I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla --===============6769452803720082055==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Thu Dec 22 23:33:51 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 15:33:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2073891804.2696114.1671750901247@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0817494865257843163==" --===============0817494865257843163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you ever tried to fix textured drywall or lathe/plaster? It's always down to playing with various settings and trial/error if you want to match a specific finish. These coatings facilitate a texture but they won't do it for you. If you apply at a high pressure they're not going to do anything. You can spray Raptor flat if you so wish. I think you may be able to get Raptor in a quart but Polane is likely a gallon. Plus the hardener. Then you get into color. You'll need to have your local industrial finish shop tint based on your codes or apply a compatible (color) topcoat, emphasis on compatible. Then you get into application, you're usually applying at a low pressure, wider tip if you want to get a textured finish. I doubt your setup is this. 2K is 2-part catalyzed. Read up on health effects of isocyanates. On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 3:15 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > So this polane stuff creates the texture when used with any airgun? > Everything I have is small, not ideal for painting a car, but more then > adequate for covering a 5170 case. Artist equipment. And I have a somewhat > larger gun that has a gravity fed canister that can hold upwards of 4oz. of > paint. The compressors I have can go from 20 to maybe 120psi iinm. > > The question is can this polane stuff be had in small quantities. And in > the color I want. > > What's a 2K? > > --===============0817494865257843163==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Dec 22 23:38:02 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 23:37:34 +0000 Message-ID: <288852092.2701023.1671752254547@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6107188264469865153==" --===============6107188264469865153== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok I'll stick with rustoleum then. I'll attempt to mimic the original textur= e even if not so perfect. =20 --===============6107188264469865153==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Dec 22 23:52:04 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 15:51:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4706870264887504856==" --===============4706870264887504856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 12/22/2022 5:02 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> Another possible exception for banning XP: >> I think that the OQO is interesting enough to call for inclusion. >> It is a handheld, running XP.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Screen slides partway off to rev= eal a=20 >> keyboard. > > /me looks at his OQO 2, which still works (and has XP on it, as I recall).= =C2=A0=20 > Battery is no more, though. > > it has the docking station as well.=C2=A0 Bought new in 2005 or something. There is a common problem, that if that battery is discharged below some=20 threshold, it won't charge on the normal charger(s). But, SOMETIMES, if=20 you open the battery and force a little bit of charge into it, sometimes=20 that will revive it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4706870264887504856==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Dec 23 00:38:28 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 16:37:59 -0800 Message-ID: <8f274d1f-5ac4-1754-dec3-ac7b28bbde22@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <288852092.2701023.1671752254547@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0359879785493202711==" --===============0359879785493202711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/22/22 15:37, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Ok I'll stick with rustoleum then. I'll attempt to mimic the original text= ure even if not so perfect. =20 On the same subject, but slightly off topic, whatever happened to the "wrinkle finish" (I think that's what it was called) that you'd often see on old panels? My recollection is that it was a baked-in process that resulted in a very tough finish.=C2=A0 I've got at least one toolbox done this way. --Chuck --===============0359879785493202711==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Dec 23 00:59:55 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 16:59:20 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8f274d1f-5ac4-1754-dec3-ac7b28bbde22@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1202649959531628565==" --===============1202649959531628565== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck, You can buy that in a spray can at the hardware store. I've used it before for some of the replicas I've built. It works great. Sellam On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 4:38 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/22/22 15:37, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > Ok I'll stick with rustoleum then. I'll attempt to mimic the original > texture even if not so perfect. > On the same subject, but slightly off topic, whatever happened to the > "wrinkle finish" (I think that's what it was called) that you'd often > see on old panels? > > My recollection is that it was a baked-in process that resulted in a > very tough finish. I've got at least one toolbox done this way. > > --Chuck > --===============1202649959531628565==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Dec 23 01:01:46 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 17:01:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3475106627006119099==" --===============3475106627006119099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 4:59 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Chuck, > > You can buy that in a spray can at the hardware store. I've used it before > for some of the replicas I've built. It works great. > If you can achieve a textured finish using a rattle can you're a better man than I! --===============3475106627006119099==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Dec 23 01:04:27 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 20:03:54 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <846066875.320953.1671751821363@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8411277181625860388==" --===============8411277181625860388== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 22, 2022, at 6:30 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 12/22/2022 4:34 PM CST Chuck Guzis via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> That's not to say that Li-ion cells are without their quirks. I >> recently almost discarded a AA-sized 14500 cell because the output >> voltage had suddenly dropped to the point where none of my chargers >> would even see it. So I put it on a corner of my workbench against the >> time when I had accumulated several and could turn them in for >> disposal. A couple of days ago, I picked up the cell and checked it >> with my voltmeter and it read 3.5V. Put it in the charger, and slowly >> charged to capacity. What happened during the month or so that it sat >> on my workbench, I cannot say. >>=20 >> --Chuck >=20 > A VERY large percentage of LiIon batteries have a protection circuit built = in to prevent over-discharge. Even a lot of the "standard" cell types (e.g. = 18650s) The circuit disconnects the battery from its terminals if the voltag= e drops too low, showing near 0 volts out. If it just barely meets the cutof= f, it may recover enough to re-activate the circuit, making it possible to re= charge it. Often, you can open the case, skip over the circuit board to acce= ss the battery cell directly, and add a small amount of charge to reactivate = it. Then it will work normally. I've done this a few times. >=20 > Will That rings a bell. The battery chapter I mentioned says that Li cells need p= rotective circuits, so any loose cells or battery assemblies you buy have tha= t built-in as a standard component. The only people who get to see bare cell= s are those who assemble their own battery packs. So car makers take in 1865= 0 cells by the shipload, without built-in protection because they supply that= protection as part of their packs. But when ordinary civilians buy lithium = cells we get protected ones. paul --===============8411277181625860388==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Dec 23 01:05:41 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 17:05:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1540265111871951963==" --===============1540265111871951963== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 4:59 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> Chuck, >> You can buy that in a spray can at the hardware store. I've used it before >> for some of the replicas I've built. It works great. On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > If you can achieve a textured finish using a rattle can you're a better man > than I! I won't claim to be a better man than you, but, 45 some years ago, there were rattle cans of "krinkle finish" sold in auto parts stores. Looked OK for valve covers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1540265111871951963==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Fri Dec 23 01:11:57 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 17:11:09 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1424329815813226269==" --===============1424329815813226269== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 5:05 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I won't claim to be a better man than you, but, > 45 some years ago, there were rattle cans of "krinkle finish" sold in auto > parts stores. Looked OK for valve covers. > A wrinkle finish isn't what I thought this was about. Plus gotta find it in the color you want, or top coat with something compatible. Very hard to achieve a finish like polane out of a rattle can. --===============1424329815813226269==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Dec 23 01:21:56 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 17:21:32 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2073986976633479800==" --===============2073986976633479800== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > If you can achieve a textured finish using a rattle can you're a better > man than I! > On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 5:05 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> I won't claim to be a better man than you, but, >> 45 some years ago, there were rattle cans of "krinkle finish" sold in auto >> parts stores. Looked OK for valve covers. On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: > A wrinkle finish isn't what I thought this was about. Plus gotta find it > in the color you want, or top coat with something compatible. > Very hard to achieve a finish like polane out of a rattle can. True. But, some "textured finish" from a "rattle can" is possible. Just not the=20 right textures, nor colors, for the current need. Although, if you go to=20 the specialty stores in 1977, you could ask them what else was available,=20 . . . --===============2073986976633479800==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Dec 23 01:26:45 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 01:26:18 +0000 Message-ID: <234015414.2506749.1671758778483@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6323813646129695407==" --===============6323813646129695407== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You all aren't referring to that hammered look? And regarding a textured finish, I have a cheapo Raidmax atx case I got from = Newegg about 4 years ago. 12.09$ after the rebate. Shipped. It and other case= s I've bought in the last few years all seem to habe that slightly gritty app= earance. Sellam and others said powder coating could be a possibility. But I = don't understand how that could be done economically. Regardless the village = boob was playing around with a spray can one day. And if you know nothing abo= ut spraying canned paint, you need to apply as many coats as possible, thereb= y achieving nice even coverage, and avoid the drips. After 1 coat I saw a sil= ilar gritty finish to the atx case, but the "beads" of paint were larger. So = maybe just maybe these things are painted with a finer tipped airgun. When I = try it I'll report back. As for painting a 5170 case, I'll apply the final 2 coats perhaps at an angle= , and adjuat the nosel so it sneezes all over the thing. Again we'll see. On Thursday, December 22, 2022, 08:01:30 PM EST, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 4:59 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Chuck, > > You can buy that in a spray can at the hardware store. I've used it before > for some of the replicas I've built. It works great. > If you can achieve a textured finish using a rattle can you're a better man than I! =20 --===============6323813646129695407==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Dec 23 02:08:52 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 19:07:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0080695947076292331==" --===============0080695947076292331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/22/22 3:41 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM I don't think "happy" is how I would describe that. Would it run? Maybe. Would I want to run it like that? Nope. Not at all. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============0080695947076292331==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Dec 23 02:10:10 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 19:08:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1020628676601054405==" --===============1020628676601054405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/22/22 2:24 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > For PC’s, being able to run WinXP is an interesting cutoff Why use a cut off that's based on a date? After all, the list is a moving / sliding window. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1020628676601054405==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Dec 23 02:16:36 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 18:16:10 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7056854610168262601==" --===============7056854610168262601== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I don't think "happy" is how I would describe that. > Would it run? Maybe. > Would I want to run it like that? Nope. Not at all. I stand corrected. "Run", no. "limp along", yes It could do a few useful things; but was far from suitable for general purpose. "Happy"??!? as in a "happy holiday season" --===============7056854610168262601==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Fri Dec 23 02:46:27 2022 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 18:45:48 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1100943050131175550==" --===============1100943050131175550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 6:16 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM > > On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I don't think "happy" is how I would describe that. > > Would it run? Maybe. > > Would I want to run it like that? Nope. Not at all. > > I stand corrected. > "Run", no. > "limp along", yes > It could do a few useful things; but was far from suitable for general > purpose. > Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially) operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor. You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor. > --===============1100943050131175550==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Dec 23 02:50:36 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 18:50:07 -0800 Message-ID: <7dcf81e2-7866-1141-939a-4f32b7ed0e45@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <234015414.2506749.1671758778483@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5518389311201000313==" --===============5518389311201000313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/22/22 17:26, Chris via cctalk wrote: > You all aren't referring to that hammered look? No, hammertone is something else.  What I'm talking about is the finish that you'd often see rack panels (I do have a blank in hammertone, however)., usually black.  Kennedy toolboxes (maybe still do) had a rough finish like that. There's also a finish you'd often see in car trunks--"spatter coat"--a textured finish with multicolored globs of paint.  That *is* possible with a rattle can. --Chuck --===============5518389311201000313==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Dec 23 02:51:22 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 18:50:44 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3488235800204894023==" --===============3488235800204894023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seems a bit impossible to me as well but Fred has made computers do things that would make ordinary men involuntarily lose their bladder so I look forward to the story/explanation. Sellam On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 6:46 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 6:16 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM > > > > On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > I don't think "happy" is how I would describe that. > > > Would it run? Maybe. > > > Would I want to run it like that? Nope. Not at all. > > > > I stand corrected. > > "Run", no. > > "limp along", yes > > It could do a few useful things; but was far from suitable for general > > purpose. > > > > Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially) > operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor. > > You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor. > > > > --===============3488235800204894023==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Dec 23 02:52:44 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 18:52:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7dcf81e2-7866-1141-939a-4f32b7ed0e45@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4667319186650248370==" --===============4667319186650248370== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 6:50 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > There's also a finish you'd often see in car trunks--"spatter coat"--a > textured finish with multicolored globs of paint. That *is* possible > with a rattle can. > > --Chuck > Yes, I've used it, though I've forgotten the application and can't remember how it turned out. It was a long while ago. Sellam --===============4667319186650248370==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Dec 23 02:54:31 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: painting computer cases Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 18:54:02 -0800 Message-ID: <08f46b4f-aefd-78ef-c2ec-6351675afe3c@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <234015414.2506749.1671758778483@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6659030357621669845==" --===============6659030357621669845== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/22/22 17:26, Chris via cctalk wrote: > You all aren't referring to that hammered look? > You used to see the wrinkle coat in black on all manner of WWII military electronics.   Some examples here: https://www.radioblvd.com/WWII_Communications_%20Equipment.htm --Chuck --===============6659030357621669845==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Dec 23 03:24:00 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 21:23:36 -0600 Message-ID: <410643619.448333.1671765816403@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8447174985329077033==" --===============8447174985329077033== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/22/2022 8:45 PM CST Glen Slick via cctalk=20 >=20 > Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially) > operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor. >=20 > You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor. >=20 > > Well, there's always Linux on an 8 bit microcontroller... https://hackaday.com/2012/03/28/building-the-worst-linux-pc-ever/ Will I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla --===============8447174985329077033==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Dec 23 03:31:30 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 19:31:02 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1079077837586261368==" --===============1079077837586261368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM >>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>>> I don't think "happy" is how I would describe that. >>>> Would it run? Maybe. >>>> Would I want to run it like that? Nope. Not at all. >>> I stand corrected. >>> "Run", no. >>> "limp along", yes >>> It could do a few useful things; but was far from suitable for general >>> purpose. > On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 6:46 PM Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: >> Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially) >> operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor. >> >> You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor. >> On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Seems a bit impossible to me as well but Fred has made computers do things > that would make ordinary men involuntarily lose their bladder so I look > forward to the story/explanation. Well, some of that was just being ignorant that certain things weren't=20 "possible" until after they were done. but, really, nothing fancy. If you have A computer, and need it to do many different things=20 adequately, you have much greater requirements, than if you have MANY=20 computers, many of which are dedicated to specific tasks. "Telephone log", "order entry", "order processing", "bookkeeping and=20 accounting" don't require much; "documentation" and "desktop publishing" need a bit more, but different needs. And NONE of those should EVER be on=20 the same machines used for software development and testing. Software development calls for more speed, for decent compile, assmble,=20 and link times. Software testing must be done on a variety of machines, specifically=20 including ones at the level of the customer. XenoCopy 1.000 was tested on 5150. And that was ALL that it ran=20 on. Changes had to be made when "compatible" machines came out. Many companies make the mistake of providing state of the art machines to=20 their testers, who therefore don't experience the kinds of problems that=20 the customers get on crappy machines. For example, when an operating system company uses high end RELIABLE=20 machines for testing, they don't experience the problems, and end up with=20 very poor error handling. For example, Microsoft was unaware that a disk error, even a minor one,=20 could/would corrupt the content being written to disk by write cacheing in=20 SMARTDRV. When that was reported to them by Win3.1 beta testers, their=20 response was LITERALLY, "That's a hardware issue; NOT OUR PROBLEM." They=20 had to do a major free "update" towards DOS 6.2x because of that (SMARTDRV=20 was the only issue that actually forced that free update; the "problems=20 with disk compression" were virrtually ALL SMARTDRV.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1079077837586261368==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Dec 23 04:21:13 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 04:19:49 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3811881192526527603==" --===============3811881192526527603== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 10:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > You've apparently never heard of Tony Duell: last I read he was running > > Windows 98 on an IBM PC/XT or something like that :) > > Tony, > are you around? QSL The only 'classic' Windows system I have is an HP150. Of course that is a specially modified version of Windows1 (doesn't even have overlapping windows) Alas I have had to get a more modern PC to have access to the internet and this list. I don't regard it as a computer. I do not know how to program it, I do not know how to interface it. It does what the manufacturers want, not what I want. And we call this progress. Still got all my classics though, and a few more. Spent the last couple of months sorting out a strange 68020 box called a Stride 440. I guess that's on-topic here. -tony --===============3811881192526527603==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Dec 23 04:55:40 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] looking for a laptop Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 04:55:11 +0000 Message-ID: <1149392760.2750071.1671771311449@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1149392760.2750071.1671771311449.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7110874049284798958==" --===============7110874049284798958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone partimg with some dang-old thing? It has to work. I'm leaning towards = a mono screen. I'm leaning against Zeniths, got 2 Minisports. But anything is= possible. IBM produced a Kanji subbish laptop some years ago. I want to say it had a 28= 6. Anyone know? --===============7110874049284798958==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Dec 23 06:55:16 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 22:54:44 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1088640044846054377==" --===============1088640044846054377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/22/22 18:45, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially) > operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor. > > You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor. Well, if you want to pedantic about it, you certainly could emulate a 32-bit processor on any reasonably Turing-equivalent processor, given sufficient memory.  It might be incredibly slow, but you could do it. --Chuck --===============1088640044846054377==-- From steven@malikoff.com Fri Dec 23 08:53:09 2022 From: steven@malikoff.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DLV11 M7940 SLU header wire colours? Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 18:52:42 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2245871294226953398==" --===============2245871294226953398== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Martin and Fritz for figuring out the DLV11 wiring colours, that's = exactly what I needed and I appreciate it very much! Also there is a lot that I hadn't looked at before in those links, much appre= ciated. Certainly hadn't considered the wire gauge size too critically but I'll use what I've got for starters. Chasing up the BC0n cable details le= d me to Malcolm/Avitech's BC01 cable page, which also helps. I hope to power it up before Christmas, fingers crossed the M7270 and M8044 b= oards work. I have yet to check the jumpers on these. I can relate to the locomotive paint story in a way. I have an old WWII jeep,= and rivet counters obsess over the _exact_ shade of WWII Olive Drab paint. This is exacerbated by most WWII film being black and white, and = period colour film may not be regarded as perfect (although George Stevens' WWII footage on Kodachrome might come close) so finding good = unfaded/undamaged paint examples isn't always easy. Now I had someone tell me they really thought my jeep was a great match to "r= eal" OD, to which I replied that I had actually painted it in Khaki, which is closer to a brown than a green. Being a completely flat paint, when = it's wet it temporarily changes appearance to gloss dark green. So I just say to people not to worry too much and the OD paint they use is bo= und to match exactly to at least one of the ~650,000 jeeps produced. Thanks cctalk list, wishing you all ice-cold Chrissie beers and barbie (Oz BB= Q) for the season, Steve --===============2245871294226953398==-- From gordon+cctalk@drogon.net Fri Dec 23 10:16:46 2022 From: gordon+cctalk@drogon.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 10:10:41 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8733937500158980297==" --===============8733937500158980297== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Cedric Amand via cctalk wrote: > Hey everyone, No - I won't ask if this is on topic or not :) I'm > currently reparing an ALPS plotter ( a Tandy "ce 150" equivalent ) and > it's not the first time I face the same problem ; how to replace NiCD > batteries. In the past what I did is actually order new NiCd ( you can > still find them here in Europe, well actually out of europe but in > eastern countries close to europe ) However they are at best NOS > nowadays, that does "work" enough for moderate use (I've done that on > vintage laptops) This time I'd like to go a bit beyond that and replace > the NiCd with modern NiMH (the plotter coils and motors will benefit the > extra power) However the trickle chagre of NiCd applied to NiMH will > either kill my batteries or kill me in a house fire. I see small $1 NiMH > 5S charging boards on Aliexpress, I thought I might use that, try to > shove it it the CE150 (or other devcies with the same problem) TL-DR : > Before I re invent the wheel here ; Has anyone developed a proper way to > replace NiCd with N > > iMH in vintage (mostly portable) equipment ? And I mean not simply > swapping the batteries, I don't want that, I want a proper charge > process. There are a few interesting videos on the BigClive YouTube channel about this - smart vs. dumb chargers and the 2nd one where he makes his own somewhat dumb charger. Might be worth a watch, but the tl;dr seems to be that trickle charging is just fine and probably better for them - according to BigClive. The issue might be the charging mechanism in that vintage kit more than anything else though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yFwhWeqyq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVnAH17f4jg Gordon --===============8733937500158980297==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Dec 23 11:39:58 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: looking for a laptop Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 05:39:32 -0600 Message-ID: <1771821797.476421.1671795572853@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <1149392760.2750071.1671771311449@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0531752367848231460==" --===============0531752367848231460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/22/2022 10:55 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Anyone partimg with some dang-old thing? It has to work. I'm leaning toward= s a mono screen. I'm leaning against Zeniths, got 2 Minisports. But anything = is possible. >=20 > IBM produced a Kanji subbish laptop some years ago. I want to say it had a = 286. Anyone know? Hi Chris, I have a couple of 386sx laptops I'm pondering getting rid of. I would have = to dig them out to give you all the details. Contact me off list if interest= ed. Will I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla --===============0531752367848231460==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Dec 23 12:54:12 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 12:53:38 +0000 Message-ID: <675988788.2594199.1671800018816@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5191538276984500414==" --===============5191538276984500414== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 On Friday, December 23, 2022, 01:54:57 AM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 12/22/22 18:45, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially) > operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor. > > You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor. Well, if you want to pedantic about it, you certainly could emulate a 32-bit processor on any reasonably Turing-equivalent processor, given sufficient memory. It might be incredibly slow, but you could do it. --Chuck I was going to say assembly language texts and maybe even Intel docs give exa= mples of substituting 2 or more instructions to replace a newer processors in= structions, that the earlier one never heard of. Not sure if that's what Fred= was talking about. Who cares about W95/98. I want to see NT 4.0 running on PC Peanut. =20 --===============5191538276984500414==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Dec 23 13:18:00 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic? Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 08:17:27 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5357795538555846250==" --===============5357795538555846250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/22/22 22:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Software development calls for more speed, for decent compile, assmble, > and link times. > Come on Fred. You have been around long enough to know this isn't really true. It's nice to have but we did just fine developing real software (not Candy Crush Saga) back when turnaround time on a compile could easily be more than 24 hours. The things you mention above have only made developers more lazy. bill --===============5357795538555846250==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Dec 23 17:22:09 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: pc magazine Nov 1983 Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 12:21:33 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6835784967220061904==" --===============6835784967220061904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, I do have a physical copy of Nov 83 PC Mag in the Kennett Classic library, not for sale. 745 pages. Is there something you're looking to have scanned? If so, please contact me through kennettclassic.com/contact.cfm Bill On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 6:51 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Does anyone have a November 1983 issue of PC Magazine? > > I did find one on eBay, but it apparently got lost in transit during recent > storms. > > That issue has been digitally archived > https://archive.org/details/PC-Mag-1983-11/ > > But I was hoping to come across a physical copy. > > > Thanks! > --===============6835784967220061904==-- From charlesmorris800@centurytel.net Fri Dec 23 18:54:31 2022 From: Charles To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Searching for a few good TI Silent 700 parts Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 12:37:02 -0600 Message-ID: <1ff69c7b-1c8a-7c21-8f98-eca05966d18c@centurytel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7656323345681029140==" --===============7656323345681029140== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a Silent 700 terminal that only needs a printhead (several missing pixels on mine) and three keyswitches (I have the keytops so it doesn't matter which ones). My other 700 is fully functional and it'd be nice to finish fixing the other one too! Can anyone help? thanks Charles --===============7656323345681029140==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Dec 23 18:56:53 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Searching for a few good TI Silent 700 parts Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 10:56:19 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1ff69c7b-1c8a-7c21-8f98-eca05966d18c@centurytel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8705410340635854746==" --===============8705410340635854746== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Charles. Which specific model? I have a 745 sans keyboard that can be parted out further. Sellam On Fri, Dec 23, 2022, 10:54 AM Charles via cctalk wrote: > I have a Silent 700 terminal that only needs a printhead (several > missing pixels on mine) and three keyswitches (I have the keytops so it > doesn't matter which ones). > > My other 700 is fully functional and it'd be nice to finish fixing the > other one too! Can anyone help? > > thanks > > Charles > > --===============8705410340635854746==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Dec 23 20:10:07 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 21:09:33 +0100 Message-ID: <73b430fa-da9-4177-7346-a3eb61807054@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5875309433279092291==" --===============5875309433279092291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 23 Dec 2022, gordon+cctalk(a)drogon.net wrote: > dumb charger. Might be worth a watch, but the tl;dr seems to be that trickle ^^^^^ The what ??? Christian --===============5875309433279092291==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Fri Dec 23 20:37:50 2022 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Toronto CompuFest ads Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 15:31:02 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF13E39-913B-4691-A3BC-F48F2A4F1182@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4257378857006374536==" --===============4257378857006374536== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember seeing full page CompuFest ads in the Toronto Star back around 199= 6-1997. CompuFest was one of the highlights of the year for me and I tried t= o go every year with friends. Has anyone ever seen one of those old ads onl= ine anywhere? Or maybe you have a newspaper or magazine with the ad that I m= ight be able to buy from you? obsol33t --===============4257378857006374536==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Dec 23 21:40:25 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 16:39:53 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <73b430fa-da9-4177-7346-a3eb61807054@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0569063682279442921==" --===============0569063682279442921== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 23, 2022, at 3:09 PM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 23 Dec 2022, gordon+cctalk(a)drogon.net wrote: >> dumb charger. Might be worth a watch, but the tl;dr seems to be that trick= le > ^^^^^ >=20 > The what ??? That's American social media slang for "too long, didn't read". I guess in t= his case it means "summary". paul --===============0569063682279442921==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Fri Dec 23 22:00:45 2022 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 22:00:22 +0000 Message-ID: <84DFDED1-378B-4754-A6A9-26DC5198636E@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: <488869872.1832770.1671591116714@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1915771689096329132==" --===============1915771689096329132== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The subject to f that is and what isn=E2=80=99t vintage computing is an argum= ent as ancient as the computer itself. Fact is, it=E2=80=99s a moving target.= As every year passes, products you can categorise as =E2=80=9Cvintage=E2=80= =9D changes at different rates. For example: IBM PC=E2=80=99s have largely st= andardised and =E2=80=9Cstagnated=E2=80=9D in the last 10-50 years. A machine= from 2010 is largely similar in operation as a machine from 2022. However, a= n iPhone from 2010 (such as the iPhone 4), is woefully obsolete compared to m= odern offerings. Certain product lines and categories age worse than others. = Another example is the PPC Macintosh line. Radically different, and largely u= nsuported, this range of computers were only discontinued in 2006, but i=E2= =80=99m sure there=E2=80=99s no argument that they=E2=80=99re pretty on-topic= .=20 What is defined as on-topic and off-topic is something we can argue until the= cows come home, but utimately it=E2=80=99s a matter of opinion. However, i b= elieve that this list, in particular, seems to aim at the weird and wonderful= , regardless of decades. There=E2=80=99s people on this list who are experts = at the Apollo Guidance Computer, there are people here who understand the BeB= ox. There=E2=80=99s people here who have experience with Cray supercomputers = and Connections Machines supercomputers.=20 There=E2=80=99s places to discusss early 00=E2=80=99s winboxes, 8-bit home co= mputers, or video games consoles. But ultimately, if i=E2=80=99m interested i= n information on some obscure 70=E2=80=99s-80=E2=80=99s-90=E2=80=99s-00=E2=80= =99s box of chips, i bet this list is the place i can get an answer. I think, in general, this list is ultimately aimed at the =E2=80=9Cweird and = wacky=E2=80=9D, and not any sort of age. Even if that is pretty frab run-of-t= he-mill stuff like modern winboxes or 8-bit consoles. Looking to see how to r= ig an acoustic modem and a 5.25=E2=80=9D drives to a Server 2003 machine? Her= e=E2=80=99s a good place. Looking for ROMs for your C64? Probably not. Cheers,=20 Josh Rice --===============1915771689096329132==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Fri Dec 23 22:11:17 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 14:01:08 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <73b430fa-da9-4177-7346-a3eb61807054@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8594253403220233644==" --===============8594253403220233644== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiA+IGR1bWIgY2hhcmdlci4gTWlnaHQgYmUgd29ydGggYSB3YXRjaCwgYnV0IHRoZSB0bDtkciBz ZWVtcyB0byBiZSB0aGF0IHRyaWNrbGUKPiDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDC oMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKg wqDCoMKgIF5eXl5eCj4gVGhlIHdoYXQgPz8/CgpUb28gbG9uZzsgZGlkbid0IHJlYWQKCi0tIAot LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0gcGVyc29uYWw6IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cu Y2FtZXJvbmthaXNlci5jb20vIC0tCiAgQ2FtZXJvbiBLYWlzZXIgKiBGbG9vZGdhcCBTeXN0ZW1z ICogd3d3LmZsb29kZ2FwLmNvbSAqIGNrYWlzZXIoYSlmbG9vZGdhcC5jb20KLS0gSWYgQmFyYmll IGlzIHNvIHBvcHVsYXIsIHdoeSBkbyB5b3UgaGF2ZSB0byBidXkgaGVyIGZyaWVuZHM/IC0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLQoK --===============8594253403220233644==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Dec 23 22:28:46 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 22:28:08 +0000 Message-ID: <205743270.2957197.1671834488738@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <84DFDED1-378B-4754-A6A9-26DC5198636E@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8088342838907173470==" --===============8088342838907173470== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's about being dang-old or not. Nuff said I feel. As far as deeming PPC Macs on topic, it sort of makes me cringe. They're inte= resting, especially the earlier ones. But we already have the Quadra series, = weird and wonderful enough to be inaugurated as classic certainly. Remember c= lassic, vintage, retro, old, and dang-old don't have to mean the same thing. = The 68040 based Macs were the pinnacle of what began with the Macintosh II. P= eople who owned Tandy 1000s and 2000s drooled when the Tandy 3000 was release= d. Likewise with really every new generation of Macs. The Quadras sorta kinda= marked the end of a period. New technologies were brought in to advance the = line. I have my own way of looking at things. As if anyone cared. =20 --===============8088342838907173470==-- From mcquiggi@sfu.ca Fri Dec 23 22:35:21 2022 From: "Kevin McQuiggin (SFU)" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing NiCd with NiMH in a pro way. Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 14:34:44 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0235175887586533272==" --===============0235175887586533272== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you can=E2=80=99t be bothered to read a document then I don=E2=80=99t thin= k you can have any valid opinion or comment on it. =20 Sent from my iPad > On Dec 23, 2022, at 14:11, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>> dumb charger. Might be worth a watch, but the tl;dr seems to be that tric= kle >> ^^^^^ >> The what ??? >=20 > Too long; didn't read >=20 > --=20 > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com= / -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.= com > -- If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? -----------= ---- >=20 --===============0235175887586533272==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Dec 24 02:57:56 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 02:57:25 +0000 Message-ID: <1660296770.2995311.1671850645882@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1820696449.374352.1671850543239@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3679677076299372951==" --===============3679677076299372951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An Indy for instance, is it much faster then a similarly clocked PowerMac? W= hat about an Indigo 2 IMPACT 10000. Does that blow most PMs away? Anyone using an I2 or Indy with regularity? I have a purple box somewhere. I = foumd the teal boxes much more visually appealing. =20 --===============3679677076299372951==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Dec 24 05:36:37 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 00:36:01 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1660296770.2995311.1671850645882@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6750760742351670603==" --===============6750760742351670603== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was using an Octane regularly up to about a month ago b On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 9:57 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > An Indy for instance, is it much faster then a similarly clocked > PowerMac? What about an Indigo 2 IMPACT 10000. Does that blow most PMs away? > > Anyone using an I2 or Indy with regularity? I have a purple box somewhere. > I foumd the teal boxes much more visually appealing. --===============6750760742351670603==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Dec 24 06:02:29 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 06:01:17 +0000 Message-ID: <1111356659.2795365.1671861677735@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6840471661554426570==" --===============6840471661554426570== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok. Did you love it? Was it fun? What were you using it for? As I've said I have an I2 and 2 Indy's here. The Indy's are just, well, so ni= fty and sleek. 1 of the Indy's has a nice graphics card. The I2 is maxed out = I think. I always said if I were going to go retro Unix, other then playing around wit= h Linux, I'd opt for HP-UX. But the Indy's I've held onto for some reason. Th= e I2 will be rehomed before very long. I think the damned thing is missing th= e door. And to think I once had stacks of the things. I got rid of my Sun stash ages ago. =20 --===============6840471661554426570==-- From erik@baigar.de Sat Dec 24 10:20:50 2022 From: "Dr. Erik Baigar" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 11:14:19 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1660296770.2995311.1671850645882@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5391248341670299338==" --===============5391248341670299338== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi There! > An Indy for instance, is it much faster then a similarly clocked > PowerMac? What about an Indigo 2 IMPACT 10000. Does that blow most PMs > away? Hmm, never used MACs of that generation. Graphics performance of the SGIs was awesome for its day. Still using an Octane (2*R12k) from time to time with old software I compiled for it and very impressive still is the responsiveness of the OS: Most other OSes still today let you feet that there is load on the CPU. With the SGIs you do not feel that so much if working in a terminal for example. I also have got dual monitors, video compressor and crystal eyes on the Octane ;-) Octane greatly improved in memory performance (well above GB/s) over the earlier SGIs and I lot of other competitors... Unfortunately my maxed out Indigo2 suffered a maniboard failure recently and does not boot any more... Best wishes and merry Xmas, Erik. ''~`` ( o o ) +------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.---------------------------+ | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | | Salzstrasse 1 .oooO Vintage Computer | | D87616 Marktoberdorf ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist / Physicist | | erik(a)baigar.de +----\ (----( )-----------------------------+ | www.baigar.de | \_) ) / +----------------------+ (_/ --===============5391248341670299338==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 24 15:21:52 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 10:21:26 -0500 Message-ID: <7267f02a-5e92-be60-c0e5-377ebc295f18@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <1660296770.2995311.1671850645882@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1393514125881405474==" --===============1393514125881405474== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I still use my Indigo Elan from time to time. Oddly enough it was I who=20 discovered the interesting issue that ultimately sank SGI's graphics=20 market when evaluating Hollidance on the Elan vs a baseline Indy. Nice little system and runs SimCity. C On 12/23/2022 9:57 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > An Indy for instance, is it much faster then a similarly clocked PowerMac= ? What about an Indigo 2 IMPACT 10000. Does that blow most PMs away? >=20 > Anyone using an I2 or Indy with regularity? I have a purple box somewhere. = I foumd the teal boxes much more visually appealing. --===============1393514125881405474==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Dec 24 15:26:57 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 07:26:22 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7267f02a-5e92-be60-c0e5-377ebc295f18@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8045161537533118896==" --===============8045161537533118896== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You're single-handedly responsible for the downfall of SGI? Do tell. Sellam On Sat, Dec 24, 2022, 7:21 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I still use my Indigo Elan from time to time. Oddly enough it was I who > discovered the interesting issue that ultimately sank SGI's graphics > market when evaluating Hollidance on the Elan vs a baseline Indy. > > Nice little system and runs SimCity. > > C > > On 12/23/2022 9:57 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > An Indy for instance, is it much faster then a similarly clocked > PowerMac? What about an Indigo 2 IMPACT 10000. Does that blow most PMs away? > > > > Anyone using an I2 or Indy with regularity? I have a purple box > somewhere. I foumd the teal boxes much more visually appealing. > --===============8045161537533118896==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 24 15:34:34 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 10:34:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6865317791007690603==" --===============6865317791007690603== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, but I found that even the incredible graphics cards they built=20 couldn't keep up with the pace of generic processors just increasing in=20 speed at an exponential rate. This also took out chips like the Elsa=20 Gloria cards, exceptionally fast, but eclipsed by Pentium processors=20 pretty quickly. Was interesting to go back and forth before we figured this out. C On 12/24/2022 10:26 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > You're single-handedly responsible for the downfall of SGI? >=20 > Do tell. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > On Sat, Dec 24, 2022, 7:21 AM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> I still use my Indigo Elan from time to time. Oddly enough it was I who >> discovered the interesting issue that ultimately sank SGI's graphics >> market when evaluating Hollidance on the Elan vs a baseline Indy. >> >> Nice little system and runs SimCity. >> >> C >> >> On 12/23/2022 9:57 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>> An Indy for instance, is it much faster then a similarly clocked >> PowerMac? What about an Indigo 2 IMPACT 10000. Does that blow most PMs awa= y? >>> >>> Anyone using an I2 or Indy with regularity? I have a purple box >> somewhere. I foumd the teal boxes much more visually appealing. >> --===============6865317791007690603==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Sat Dec 24 17:02:35 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 17:02:08 +0000 Message-ID: <1799408588.3076935.1671901328151@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <7267f02a-5e92-be60-c0e5-377ebc295f18@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4000386850822805222==" --===============4000386850822805222== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don"t know what an Elan is. I do seem to recall suddenly an Indy with no gra= phics output, intended to be used as a headless server. On Saturday, December 24, 2022, 10:21:36 AM EST, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: I still use my Indigo Elan from time to time. Oddly enough it was I who discovered the interesting issue that ultimately sank SGI's graphics market when evaluating Hollidance on the Elan vs a baseline Indy. Nice little system and runs SimCity. C On 12/23/2022 9:57 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > An Indy for instance, is it much faster then a similarly clocked PowerMac? = What about an Indigo 2 IMPACT 10000. Does that blow most PMs away? > > Anyone using an I2 or Indy with regularity? I have a purple box somewhere. = I foumd the teal boxes much more visually appealing. =20 --===============4000386850822805222==-- From dillera@dillernet.com Sat Dec 24 17:22:56 2022 From: Andrew Diller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 12:22:30 -0500 Message-ID: <301A3907-7F69-4110-8042-94A281106E27@dillernet.com> In-Reply-To: <1799408588.3076935.1671901328151@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0645620591945162934==" --===============0645620591945162934== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Elan is a class of graphics chips in a given (early) SGI. It's the top level = of the Express set. http://archive.irixnet.org/sgistuff/hardware/graphics/express.html I thought the end of SGI hinged on two things: banking on the Itanium and giv= ing up on MIPS, and their Graphics experts went off to found a company called= Nvidia... the rest was inevitable. For anyone that still uses a SGI and has a later IRIX installed I've worked w= ith a team that has ported a whole slew of modern software over to IRIX to ma= ke them fairly useable today. Later systems mostly - but quite a few people l= ove their Indys and are running what we built: SGUG-RSE (Silicon Graphics Use= r Group's RPM Software Env).=20 How to setup RSE: https://forums.sgi.sh/index.php?threads/setup-the-official-sgug-repo-upgrade-= openssh.660/ RSE sources: https://github.com/sgidevnet/sgug-rse It's fun if you are into SGI and want to run some stuff that is slightly rele= vant. > On Dec 24, 2022, at 12:02 PM, Chris via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > Don"t know what an Elan is. I do seem to recall suddenly an Indy with no gr= aphics output, intended to be used as a headless server. >=20 >> Anyone using an I2 or Indy with regularity? I have a purple box somewhere.= I foumd the teal boxes much more visually appealing. I use my Fuel and my teal Indigo2 pretty regularly- there is a of course a gr= oup of people who do CGI work on these old systems for the authentic feels an= d I dabble in that and IRIX sysadmin- it's a refreshing change from Linux and= systemd lol. -andy --===============0645620591945162934==-- From charlesmorris800@centurytel.net Sat Dec 24 19:46:34 2022 From: Charles To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Searching for a few good TI Silent 700 parts Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 13:40:57 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <167190480917.1602.4150950175892211140@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3100635451896014960==" --===============3100635451896014960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In fact it is a 745 :) If the printhead has all its pixels working, I'd like to buy it. No keyboard at all, or just nonfunctional? Those particular keyswitches seem to be unobtainium nowadays... thanks Charles On 12/24/22 12:00, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 10:56:19 -0800 > From: Sellam Abraham > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Searching for a few good TI Silent 700 parts > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Hi Charles. > > Which specific model? > > I have a 745 sans keyboard that can be parted out further. > > Sellam > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2022, 10:54 AM Charles via cctalk > wrote: > >> I have a Silent 700 terminal that only needs a printhead (several >> missing pixels on mine) and three keyswitches (I have the keytops so it >> doesn't matter which ones). >> >> My other 700 is fully functional and it'd be nice to finish fixing the >> other one too! Can anyone help? >> >> thanks >> >> Charles >> >> --===============3100635451896014960==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 24 20:17:39 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 15:17:15 -0500 Message-ID: <95261558-56f7-3568-cf08-b6a58169f0df@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <1799408588.3076935.1671901328151@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3083164023821444510==" --===============3083164023821444510== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It was the top of the line SGI Indigo/Iris series. 4 GE7 Geometry=20 engines (50mflops each), Z buffer, Raster manager, and 24 bit video. A=20 worthy system without a doubt. The big thing missing was texture memory, it didn't have it. Still I=20 think it could do 4 light sources on the cars and neat stuff like that. The Indigo2 Extreme was in the I2 platform but with 8 GE7's. They made a=20 half chip version of it that they called Elan. The GE11+Texture memory=20 of the High and Max Impact systems was a lot better. CZ On 12/24/2022 12:02 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Don"t know what an Elan is. I do seem to recall suddenly an Indy with no = graphics output, intended to be used as a headless server. >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Saturday, December 24, 2022, 10:21:36 AM EST, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > I still use my Indigo Elan from time to time. Oddly enough it was I who > discovered the interesting issue that ultimately sank SGI's graphics > market when evaluating Hollidance on the Elan vs a baseline Indy. >=20 > Nice little system and runs SimCity. >=20 > C >=20 > On 12/23/2022 9:57 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> An Indy for instance, is it much faster then a similarly clocked PowerMac?= What about an Indigo 2 IMPACT 10000. Does that blow most PMs away? >> >> Anyone using an I2 or Indy with regularity? I have a purple box somewhere.= I foumd the teal boxes much more visually appealing. > =20 --===============3083164023821444510==-- From ethan@757.org Sat Dec 24 21:13:13 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 16:12:49 -0500 Message-ID: <2cce170-aa54-6912-406f-789cd4e09518@757.org> In-Reply-To: <1799408588.3076935.1671901328151@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7527613751567922815==" --===============7527613751567922815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Don"t know what an Elan is. I do seem to recall suddenly an Indy with no gr= aphics output, intended to be used as a headless server. The SGI Challenge S is an Indy sized machine that is meant as a server.=20 They get rid of the graphics and replace it with a board that adds a 2nd=20 network interface and two additional differental SCSI interfaces. - Ethan --===============7527613751567922815==-- From ethan@757.org Sat Dec 24 21:15:48 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 16:15:25 -0500 Message-ID: <89a53990-b2c3-a25c-ef71-74ef1bc8582d@757.org> In-Reply-To: <301A3907-7F69-4110-8042-94A281106E27@dillernet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4801447168063075547==" --===============4801447168063075547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I thought the end of SGI hinged on two things: banking on the Itanium > and giving up on MIPS, and their Graphics experts went off to found a > company called Nvidia... the rest was inevitable. Founder of SGI wrote a book and in it he said he wanted to get into the PC Graphics card market and thought the writing was on the wall but the gravy train from the gov buyers was too good. Until it wasn't. I remember (in the workplace) when we started seeing PC clusters take the place of the big SGI boxes. For a while there was a claim that the graphics output on SGI was more accurate and the PC stuff fudged it (important in sims I guess) but we see where it all ended up. Really without the US government as a customer I wonder how many of these companies could have made it on industry alone. - Ethan --===============4801447168063075547==-- From pete@dunnington.plus.com Sat Dec 24 21:31:56 2022 From: Pete Turnbull To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 21:23:22 +0000 Message-ID: <3b1531cb-7dd7-9b7f-0bea-30392e1875a3@dunnington.plus.com> In-Reply-To: <1799408588.3076935.1671901328151@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7975779887540934288==" --===============7975779887540934288== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 24/12/2022 17:02, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Don"t know what an Elan is. I do seem to recall suddenly an Indy with no = graphics output, intended to be used as a headless server. That was a Challenge. the Indigo Elan is an Indigo with a particular=20 higher-end graphics card. I still have an Indy running 24/7, providing various services on my=20 network. It has 24-bit graphics and a 100baseT Ethernet interface, but=20 it's not much used other than as a server these days. Not the most=20 efficient but somehow it's always seemed like more trouble to migrate=20 things. --=20 Pete Pete Turnbull --===============7975779887540934288==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Dec 26 22:42:59 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Searching for a few good TI Silent 700 parts Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 14:42:20 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2878786324059287117==" --===============2878786324059287117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Charles. I'll try to check out whether or not the unit prints later this afternoon or evening and get back to you. I had some people wanting keyboards for their homebrew projects, and these things being so common and (to me) boring I had no compunctions parting out the keyboard for it, which I sold as a complete module. So I have the rest of the unit waiting for someone like you to come along. Sellam On Sat, Dec 24, 2022 at 11:46 AM Charles via cctalk wrote: > In fact it is a 745 :) If the printhead has all its pixels working, I'd > like to buy it. > > No keyboard at all, or just nonfunctional? Those particular keyswitches > seem to be unobtainium nowadays... > > thanks > > Charles > > On 12/24/22 12:00, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 2 > > Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 10:56:19 -0800 > > From: Sellam Abraham > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Searching for a few good TI Silent 700 parts > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Message-ID: > > < > CAHJBWnT0UF8_89CO8FN8g3Bdo63OskjkZPoF9WEODNXEwdpFgw(a)mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > Hi Charles. > > > > Which specific model? > > > > I have a 745 sans keyboard that can be parted out further. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2022, 10:54 AM Charles via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> I have a Silent 700 terminal that only needs a printhead (several > >> missing pixels on mine) and three keyswitches (I have the keytops so it > >> doesn't matter which ones). > >> > >> My other 700 is fully functional and it'd be nice to finish fixing the > >> other one too! Can anyone help? > >> > >> thanks > >> > >> Charles > >> > >> --===============2878786324059287117==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Dec 26 22:53:56 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Searching for a few good TI Silent 700 parts Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 14:53:31 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4487250238871894377==" --===============4487250238871894377== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 26 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I had some people wanting keyboards for their homebrew projects, and these > things being so common and (to me) boring I had no compunctions parting out > the keyboard for it, which I sold as a complete module. So I have the rest > of the unit waiting for someone like you to come along. I remember when a PORTABLE TERMINAL was really exciting! On at least some of them, there were documented jumpers to separate the modem from the terminal and use either or both with a odd homemade cable to a connector on the back. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4487250238871894377==-- From jpw@coherent-logic.com Mon Dec 26 23:31:17 2022 From: "John P. Willis" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Searching for Cisco Catalyst 3920 Token Ring switch firmware Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 16:24:43 -0700 Message-ID: <577242424.474344.1672097083349.JavaMail.zimbra@coherent-logic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6813563934002704197==" --===============6813563934002704197== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, As the subject implies, I'm on a search for Cisco Catalyst 3920 Token Ring sw= itch firmware.=20 AFAIK, these units are actually from a company Cisco acquired. They definitel= y don't run IOS or CatOS, and have an odd full-screen interactive menu interface. It worked when I rece= ived it, but after a power outage, the firmware got corrupted, leaving all interfaces effectively dead. = It seems that there is no official way to get a copy of the image from a working unit, either, as= I've had people attempt it. The general naming pattern is supposedly cat3900-main-gz.x-y-z.bin, where [I = believe] x, y, and z would represent some sort of version information. If anyone has this file, or any leads as to where I might find it, I'd be for= ever grateful. Apparently, even Cisco employees cannot find it nowadays. Thanks much, jpw --===============6813563934002704197==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 02:20:21 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 02:19:48 +0000 Message-ID: <683940579.3261269.1672107588251@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <683940579.3261269.1672107588251.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9072699443499419578==" --===============9072699443499419578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It cannot rely on bios/ms-dos services for compiling preferably. Iow I'd like= to perform what I want to do on the target machine itself, LOL which is hyst= erical as I've never even seen it boot even once. I could complie on a standa= rd pc I suppose and pop a disk in the Northstar Dimension. It would be nice i= f it's optimized for it's 80186. Or at least supports it's instructions. My g= oal is to get MINIX running on it, as the original Netware-86 OS has proven t= o be more rare then really anything else. From there I'd like to figure out h= ow to support the pc compatible (or so we're told) logic boards that are plug= ged into the motherboard like standard isa cards, and even have 34 contacts o= n their card edge. It would be nice if someone had the ideal compiler package they don't need an= d could sell. --===============9072699443499419578==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Dec 27 02:44:25 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 18:44:00 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <683940579.3261269.1672107588251@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7345194008628768750==" --===============7345194008628768750== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > It cannot rely on bios/ms-dos services for compiling preferably. Iow I'd > like to perform what I want to do on the target machine itself, LOL > which is hysterical as I've never even seen it boot even once. I could > complie on a standard pc I suppose and pop a disk in the Northstar > Dimension. It would be nice if it's optimized for it's 80186. Or at > least supports it's instructions. My goal is to get MINIX running on it, > as the original Netware-86 OS has proven to be more rare then really > anything else. From there I'd like to figure out how to support the pc > compatible (or so we're told) logic boards that are plugged into the > motherboard like standard isa cards, and even have 34 contacts on their > card edge. Am I misunderstanding something? (or over-reacting to a typo?) 8 bit ISA cards, for 5150/5160 have 62 contacts. not 34 I thought that the Northstar Dimension had same/similar 16 bit ISA (5170) is 98 pins? (including the 62 pin bus) Apple 2 is 50 S100 is 100 SA400/450 (5.25") floppy interface is 34 contacts. SA800/850 (8") interface is 50 contacts --===============7345194008628768750==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Dec 27 03:21:47 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 19:21:19 -0800 Message-ID: <91a55bc5-ce8e-2ac7-04e9-5c78c1b81802@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <683940579.3261269.1672107588251@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6950264514549961108==" --===============6950264514549961108== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/26/22 18:19, Chris via cctalk wrote: > It cannot rely on bios/ms-dos services for compiling preferably. Iow I'd li= ke to perform what I want to do on the target machine itself, LOL which is hy= sterical as I've never even seen it boot even once. I could complie on a stan= dard pc I suppose and pop a disk in the Northstar Dimension. It would be nice= if it's optimized for it's 80186. Or at least supports it's instructions. My= goal is to get MINIX running on it, as the original Netware-86 OS has proven= to be more rare then really anything else. From there I'd like to figure out= how to support the pc compatible (or so we're told) logic boards that are pl= ugged into the motherboard like standard isa cards, and even have 34 contacts= on their card edge. > > It would be nice if someone had the ideal compiler package they don't need = and could sell. I'm not sure that I understand what you're after, but if you want a period-correct x86 C, Lattice C was what we used and what Microsoft recommended. https://winworldpc.com/product/lattice-c/2x However, note that LC is not ANSI C90 conforming.=C2=A0 But it will run fine on a 5150.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The run-time, of course, is your own lookout. --Chuck --===============6950264514549961108==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Dec 27 03:22:40 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 19:22:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3debf387-6c41-cf28-853e-32bdd89b38fb@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <683940579.3261269.1672107588251@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1550766908676889352==" --===============1550766908676889352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/26/22 18:19, Chris via cctalk wrote: > It cannot rely on bios/ms-dos services for compiling preferably Huh?   Exactly what should it do for file I/O? --Chuck --===============1550766908676889352==-- From toby@telegraphics.net Tue Dec 27 03:38:40 2022 From: Toby Thain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 22:38:13 -0500 Message-ID: <0a7c75c0-85a6-ad24-631d-bdd63f9f4c8e@telegraphics.net> In-Reply-To: <683940579.3261269.1672107588251@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5274200810419151697==" --===============5274200810419151697== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2022-12-26 9:19 p.m., Chris via cctalk wrote: > It cannot rely on bios/ms-dos services for compiling preferably. Iow I'd li= ke to perform what I want to do on the target machine itself, LOL which is hy= sterical as I've never even seen it boot even once. I could complie on a stan= dard pc I suppose and pop a disk in the Northstar Dimension. It would be nice= if it's optimized for it's 80186. Or at least supports it's instructions. My= goal is to get MINIX running on it, as the original Netware-86 OS has proven= to be more rare then really anything else. From there I'd like to figure out= how to support the pc compatible (or so we're told) logic boards that are pl= ugged into the motherboard like standard isa cards, and even have 34 contacts= on their card edge. >=20 > It would be nice if someone had the ideal compiler package they don't need = and could sell. Two comments from a friend who's not on the list (who also has a=20 NorthStar, fwiw): - Borland released Turbo C 2.0 as freeware/abandonware, and that=20 definitely supports real mode 8086 - People compile Minix with Amsterdam Compiler Kit --Toby --===============5274200810419151697==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 03:46:26 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 03:46:00 +0000 Message-ID: <754839793.3502094.1672112760435@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <3debf387-6c41-cf28-853e-32bdd89b38fb@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2393925972822183524==" --===============2393925972822183524== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not all compilers were designed specifically to run on an ibm pc. If the com= piler itself utilzes bios fumction calls to display anything, it will not run= on anything but an pc or compatible. If you're referring to saving object co= de to disk, well I giess that's a good question. But there were compilers pri= or to tje 5150, and even after, a few of which, I have to imagine, had some o= ther means to save files. Was the development platform for the D* a pc? Maybe it was for all I know. Se= eing it sought emulate pc (hardwate) I guess it could seem natural. But not a= necessity as it was a type of server that allowed individual pc compatible S= IXTY TWO pin cards to boot and run a pc os and applications. The D* booted it= 's own dos. Which may or may not be Netwate-86 itself, can't say. I have.my own manuals for this thing (but can't find them) and it seems every= piece of documentation that ever existed is available for download. So I I o= nly have a cursory underatanding of this beast at the moment. Maybe I'm just = assuming it doesn't habe some low level pc s/w xompatibility ... On Monda= y, December 26, 2022, 10:22:22 PM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 12/26/22 18:19, Chris via cctalk wrote: > It cannot rely on bios/ms-dos services for compiling preferably Huh?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Exactly what should it do for file I/O? --Chuck =20 --===============2393925972822183524==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Tue Dec 27 03:52:07 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 19:51:30 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0a7c75c0-85a6-ad24-631d-bdd63f9f4c8e@telegraphics.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3477828625664420584==" --===============3477828625664420584== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 7:38 PM Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-12-26 9:19 p.m., Chris via cctalk wrote: > > It cannot rely on bios/ms-dos services for compiling preferably. Iow I'd > like to perform what I want to do on the target machine itself, LOL which > is hysterical as I've never even seen it boot even once. Why? Can't you just use a cross compiler. It's been ages since I looked but I thought there were ones that targetted old DOS. --===============3477828625664420584==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 03:55:02 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 03:54:36 +0000 Message-ID: <703181512.3280629.1672113276670@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0793419519918141058==" --===============0793419519918141058== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It boots it's own software. If it was that pc compatible, MINIX wouldn't nee= d a port. On Monday, December 26, 2022, 10:51:47 PM EST, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: Why? Can't you just use a cross compiler. It's been ages since I looked but I thought there were ones that targetted old DOS. =20 --===============0793419519918141058==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 04:00:44 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 03:59:54 +0000 Message-ID: <591021676.3496983.1672113594295@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5480294964254313494==" --===============5480294964254313494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Very helpful especially the comment about the Amsterdam compiler. It's just r= eal nice to have a complete compiler package, manuals and all. Anything relea= sed back then will compiler for 16 bits. It just would be real fancy to have = an actual 80186 compliler that compiled on this machine I guess, as how else = could it function? The guts of this thing may have more compatibility then I'= m aware. Your friend has a Dimenaion? That's functional??? On Monday, December 26, 2022, 10:38:23 PM EST, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: Two comments from a friend who's not on the list (who also has a NorthStar, fwiw): - Borland released Turbo C 2.0 as freeware/abandonware, and that definitely supports real mode 8086 - People compile Minix with Amsterdam Compiler Kit --Toby =20 --===============5480294964254313494==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Dec 27 04:09:23 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 20:08:52 -0800 Message-ID: <238fc529-f71e-91f3-8a70-37ea3e5553e2@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <754839793.3502094.1672112760435@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1138809509529380263==" --===============1138809509529380263== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/26/22 19:46, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Not all compilers were designed specifically to run on an ibm pc. If the c= ompiler itself utilzes bios fumction calls to display anything, it will not r= un on anything but an pc or compatible. If you're referring to saving object = code to disk, well I giess that's a good question. But there were compilers p= rior to tje 5150, and even after, a few of which, I have to imagine, had some= other means to save files. > It seems to me that you're conflating the IBM PC BIOS and MS-DOS.=C2=A0=C2=A0= LC was available for a wide variety of platforms. We ran Lattice on a non-PC compatible (80186 with no memory-mapped display) To quote the page I pointed to: "Lattice C was ported to MVS, VMS, Unix, OS/2, Amiga, Atari ST, and Sinclair." My point being that the file I/O of the system hosting the compiler would be used. If you're running it on an x86-based MSDOS OS, you'll use MSDOS I/O. =C2=A0 That does not imply a PC, only an x86 machine that can host MSDOS. =C2=A0 If you want vintage, I think that there's a K&R C source on github: https://github.com/AoiMoe/knrcc Some time ago, I revisited some code I wrote in the late 1970s-early 1980s and found that gcc didn't like it at all. As mentioned, there are a host of C cross-compilers. --Chuck --===============1138809509529380263==-- From steven@malikoff.com Tue Dec 27 04:42:07 2022 From: Steve Malikoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 14:41:35 +1000 Message-ID: <22499265-35ea-4d66-a572-25309283b79f@malikoff.com> In-Reply-To: <683940579.3261269.1672107588251@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3439233467089356764==" --===============3439233467089356764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 27-Dec-22 12:19 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > It cannot rely on bios/ms-dos services for compiling preferably. Iow > I'd like to perform what I want to do on the target machine itself, > LOL which is hysterical as I've never even seen it boot even once. I > could complie on a standard pc I suppose and pop a disk in the > Northstar Dimension. It would be nice if it's optimized for it's > 80186. Or at least supports it's instructions. My goal is to get MINIX > running on it, as the original Netware-86 OS has proven to be more > rare then really anything else. From there I'd like to figure out how > to support the pc compatible (or so we're told) logic boards that are > plugged into the motherboard like standard isa cards, and even have 34 > contacts on their card edge. It would be nice if someone had the ideal > compiler package they don't need and could sell. I don't know anything about the Dimension, can it boot regular MSDOS floppies? Circa late 80s I used to recompile the Minix 1-point-something kernel and utilities under Minix on a plain 8088 clone with two (IIRC 360k) floppies only, no HD. The Minix C compiler (Toby mentioned Amsterdam, that sounds like it) took a loooong while, but it was doable and actually worked. I still have all the diskettes for it somewhere. --===============3439233467089356764==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Dec 27 04:46:13 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 20:45:45 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <754839793.3502094.1672112760435@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7181659211215086191==" --===============7181659211215086191== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Not all compilers were designed specifically to run on an ibm pc. If the > compiler itself utilzes bios fumction calls to display anything, it will > not run on anything but an pc or compatible. If you're referring to > saving object code to disk, well I giess that's a good question. But > there were compilers prior to tje 5150, and even after, a few of which, > I have to imagine, had some other means to save files. In general, a compiler will use the operating system for its file I/O. CP/M, MS-DOS, etc. The problem that you are referring to, and yes, it is a real problem, is generally an issue of programs that go below DOS, and even below the BIOS, and do hardware access of video memory, keyboard, etc. for "improved performance". It is impractical to do a graphical user interface without doing that. Therefore, what you want is a "command line" based compiler. Those tend to be hardware agnostic. Many/most of those were before ANSI C, and complied with the compiler author's interpretations of the K&R holy scripturees. So, there are differences, such as whether puts() appends a newline by default, etc. One small one that I found was quick and easy to get started with, was the DeSmet "Personal C Compiler"; it tends to work fine on MS-DOS macines that are VERY NOT PC compatible. For larger projects, Lattice C was the major workhorse for most developers. A graphical "IDE" ("Integrated Develpment Environment", TOTALLY unrelated to IDE "Integrated Device Electronics", as used on hard drives) is where you would encounter the difficulties. But, even some of those will sometimes work on some machines that are only "close" to PC compatible. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7181659211215086191==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 05:23:48 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 05:23:21 +0000 Message-ID: <1218315115.3289559.1672118601648@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <238fc529-f71e-91f3-8a70-37ea3e5553e2@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2568288085423405191==" --===============2568288085423405191== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not conflating anything. Most of the time screen i/o is accomplished usi= ng bios calls. That's with ms-dos/pc-dos software (whatever the percentage of= the time). But it's feally irrelevant if it's dos compatible or not, as any = code can make use of the bios subroutines. That's an immediate show stopper i= f you can't get feedback from the compiler. Please no references to early tim= e sharing Basically when I say PC I mean in the sense of IBM PC. Unless I was being car= eless I wouldn't refer to a Zenith Z-100 as a pc. You alluded to a program needing hosting on a specific platform. Off the top = of my head I couldn't think of a means whereby a compiler could be generic en= ough to run on a variety of computers that simply have an 80x86. I have to re= read Fred's post ... If you wrote 8086 cose in the 70s it was 16 bit. Gcc compiles to 16 bit? Fran= kly can't remember but am having difficulty understanding why it would. I gue= ss I'm forgettting gcc owes it's existence to Richard S., not Linus T. On= Monday, December 26, 2022, 11:09:04 PM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 12/26/22 19:46, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 Not all compilers were designed specifically to run on an ibm pc. If = the compiler itself utilzes bios fumction calls to display anything, it will = not run on anything but an pc or compatible. If you're referring to saving ob= ject code to disk, well I giess that's a good question. But there were compil= ers prior to tje 5150, and even after, a few of which, I have to imagine, had= some other means to save files. > It seems to me that you're conflating the IBM PC BIOS and MS-DOS.=C2=A0=C2=A0= LC was available for a wide variety of platforms. We ran Lattice on a non-PC compatible (80186 with no memory-mapped display) To quote the page I pointed to: "Lattice C was ported to MVS, VMS, Unix, OS/2, Amiga, Atari ST, and Sinclair." My point being that the file I/O of the system hosting the compiler would be used. If you're running it on an x86-based MSDOS OS, you'll use MSDOS I/O. =C2=A0 That does not imply a PC, only an x86 machine that can host MSDOS. =C2=A0 If you want vintage, I think that there's a K&R C source on github: https://github.com/AoiMoe/knrcc Some time ago, I revisited some code I wrote in the late 1970s-early 1980s and found that gcc didn't like it at all. As mentioned, there are a host of C cross-compilers. --Chuck =20 --===============2568288085423405191==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 05:41:01 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 05:40:33 +0000 Message-ID: <1062938385.3505091.1672119633998@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6242012830857379333==" --===============6242012830857379333== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok now some things are coming back. Borland compilers work from the ms-dos c= ommand line. Bcc 5.5? came with an old textbook. But the Dimension, although = I assume has some sort of command line structure, doesn't have an ms-dos comm= and line. So let's just say tje program got up and running, even compiled cod= e (all that assumes a lot). How is it going to save the .obj file. The file s= tructure of Northstar dos would have to be identical to ms-dos, 8.3. It would= have to be able to read an ms-dos formatted disk. And the main kicker is the= object codw format, creating a 256 byte psp. Amongst other shit I have to as= sume. Or does ms-dos itself handle some of that. Is a compiler'a executable f= ormat compatible with this. This thing is binary compatible in a broad sense.= But can you simply for instance run Linux wares on bsd? =20 --===============6242012830857379333==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 05:44:26 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 05:43:59 +0000 Message-ID: <537047503.3280515.1672119839313@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1062938385.3505091.1672119633998@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8205179575732025728==" --===============8205179575732025728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All I can say with some certainty is this thing will read ms-dos formatted f= loppies. How else could it run ibm pc software if it didn't. The individual j= umbo isa card-motherboards are doled out their rations internally from the se= rver departmemt. No drices excwpt what tje server itself has. =20 --===============8205179575732025728==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Dec 27 05:50:37 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 21:50:13 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <537047503.3280515.1672119839313@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5744457050615860237==" --===============5744457050615860237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it can run PC software, then it can handle DOS disk I/O. But BIOS=20 and/or direct hardware access may be totally incompatible. On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > All I can say with some certainty is this thing will read ms-dos formatted = floppies. How else could it run ibm pc software if it didn't. The individual = jumbo isa card-motherboards are doled out their rations internally from the s= erver departmemt. No drices excwpt what tje server itself has. --===============5744457050615860237==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Tue Dec 27 05:55:38 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 22:54:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1062938385.3505091.1672119633998@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6398357185751306253==" --===============6398357185751306253== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK. You guys are all over the place. I do think you are confusing Compiler and Run Time first off. I ran Turbo C on my DEC Rainbow which had MS-DOS compatibility but not PC-DOS/PC BIOS compatibility. TCC would run in this environment (modulo it's use of INT 18 which I did a hack to allow on the Rainbow which used that interrupt for its screen code). TCC would read files off the disk with MS-DOS calls to open the file, etc. Same with writing. It worked on all machines because it did this. It was no different than MASM or other command line compilers at the time which generally (but not always) avoided PC BIOS calls. For the Rainbow, if I wanted to use vanilla DOS, I used the default run time. If I wanted to use an optimized version that I had back then (but haven't seen recently), I had to add a bunch of command line flags to get it to swap out what's the equivalent of libc.a and crt0.o on Unix/Linux. So, you could write a program than runs on any MS-DOS computer. Or, you could use your own libc to do the low-level stuff and have it run on a specific computer. It would still need to be MS-DOS (though CP/M 86 was possible with a .EXE to .CMD converter and there were also hacks to convert the .OBJ files to .o files that some Unix-based loaders could cope with, but I really haven't seen those anywhere in a long time, though I've not needed to look). DOS handled all the weird formatting differences between a DEC Rainbow, IBM-PC and whatever other weird thing TCC ran in (at least in the early days). There was also no official support for the DEC Rainbow after the first TCC release (which is why I had to do the INT 18 hacks). If you wanted to run on raw hardware, though, you'd need to write a boot loader, which is way beyond the scope of this email :). Of course, you can use dosbox or similar to run the old-school compilers / assemblers to generate the binaries on Linux / FreeBSD. I've done this lately... So if it is running MS-DOS, there's a chance you can run TCC at least on it (at least early versions). The early versions were more MS-DOS-centric and less 'only runs on PC-DOS' at least. I moved on to FreeBSD/Linux around this time, so I don't know how things evolved. Warner On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 10:40 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Ok now some things are coming back. Borland compilers work from the > ms-dos command line. Bcc 5.5? came with an old textbook. But the Dimension, > although I assume has some sort of command line structure, doesn't have an > ms-dos command line. So let's just say tje program got up and running, even > compiled code (all that assumes a lot). How is it going to save the .obj > file. The file structure of Northstar dos would have to be identical to > ms-dos, 8.3. It would have to be able to read an ms-dos formatted disk. And > the main kicker is the object codw format, creating a 256 byte psp. Amongst > other shit I have to assume. Or does ms-dos itself handle some of that. Is > a compiler'a executable format compatible with this. This thing is binary > compatible in a broad sense. But can you simply for instance run Linux > wares on bsd? --===============6398357185751306253==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Dec 27 06:04:20 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 22:03:51 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1218315115.3289559.1672118601648@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5926855543151272990==" --===============5926855543151272990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/26/22 21:23, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I'm not conflating anything. Most of the time screen i/o is accomplished u= sing bios calls. That's with ms-dos/pc-dos software (whatever the percentage = of the time). But it's feally irrelevant if it's dos compatible or not, as an= y code can make use of the bios subroutines. That's an immediate show stopper= if you can't get feedback from the compiler. Please no references to early t= ime sharing Sure you are.=C2=A0 Lattice had no IDE; it was strictly command-line driven--if the input required a text editor, it was up to you to furnish one. =C2=A0 If the MSDOS hosting system used a BIOS, fine.=C2=A0 But not all = did.=C2=A0 Consider the MSDOS platforms that interfaced to a simple serial terminal.=C2=A0 In any case, console and file I/O is done via the DOS API.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 How DOS does things is no concern of the compiler. This is the way before fancy screen I/O that we did things.=C2=A0 Before that, it was with punched cards. --Chuck --===============5926855543151272990==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 06:30:10 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 06:29:41 +0000 Message-ID: <274233478.3297777.1672122581332@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0284916520640969568==" --===============0284916520640969568== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At no point was I asking for or expecting a recommendation of a compiler wit= h an ide. In fact it never entered my mind. If QuickC would run lock, stock, = and barrel on a Northstar Dimension I wouldn't be asking for anything. I did = say the compiler couldn't rely on typical IBM PC facilities to talk to the sc= reen. Then you brought up disk (file) i/o, which was a perfectly valid point,= and I said so. So in the final analysis I guess I'll be writing w hatever on= a "real" pc. Sorry for wasting the list's time. What I wanted may not exist. Were you referring to the Poppy? How did programs talk to the disk drive? = On Tuesday, December 27, 2022, 01:04:00 AM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 12/26/22 21:23, Chris via cctalk wrote: >=C2=A0 I'm not conflating anything. Most of the time screen i/o is accomplis= hed using bios calls. That's with ms-dos/pc-dos software (whatever the percen= tage of the time). But it's feally irrelevant if it's dos compatible or not, = as any code can make use of the bios subroutines. That's an immediate show st= opper if you can't get feedback from the compiler. Please no references to ea= rly time sharing Sure you are.=C2=A0 Lattice had no IDE; it was strictly command-line driven--if the input required a text editor, it was up to you to furnish one. =C2=A0 If the MSDOS hosting system used a BIOS, fine.=C2=A0 But not all = did.=C2=A0 Consider the MSDOS platforms that interfaced to a simple serial terminal.=C2=A0 In any case, console and file I/O is done via the DOS API.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 How DOS does things is no concern of the compiler. This is the way before fancy screen I/O that we did things.=C2=A0 Before that, it was with punched cards. --Chuck =20 --===============0284916520640969568==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 07:42:08 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 07:41:35 +0000 Message-ID: <111344093.3522600.1672126895111@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8312311930739043969==" --===============8312311930739043969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The server itself is not pc compatible. The plug in card (motherboards) are = what are meant to run ibm pc software. The server runs Netware-86 or a tinker= ed with version, maybe strait out of the box, but regardless N-86 is super du= per unobtainium. I suppose what happens is the machine is started, the server= boots. The motherboards then are initialized, served up ms-dos, served up ap= plication software. Externally each of the server's motherboard cards has som= e kind of terminal attached (the terminal is a Northstar keyboard that looks = identical to a Keytronic 5151? But for the logo. And has a modular connector.= The monitor is identical to those seen with the Eagle-2 again but for the lo= go. I have 1 of the keyboards, an IBM 5151 monitor, but nothing else. There m= ay have been an intermediary circuit board that tied the k/b+monitor together= and interfaced to the back of the server (the expansion card actually). My unit was kind of banged up but has a hard drive, the most banged up part o= f the whole shlameel. It belonges to a hassidic man in Chicago who was runnin= g his bisiness with it I assume. It got beat up in shipping, couldn't complai= n as he sent me it free but asked what 2 hours of his time was worth after th= e fact. I pp'd him 50$. The dimenaion mobo doesn't look like any pc anyone has ever aeen. In fact the= innards are a bit of a horror movie. The p/s is big and nasty and is unenclo= sed. There's all kinds of shit hanging of the mainboard, including the pc-car= ds. It'll be a work in progreas for some time. Loads of fun though. Dead bugs. On Tuesday, December 27, 2022, 12:50:19 AM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: If it can run PC software, then it can handle DOS disk I/O. But BIOS and/or direct hardware access may be totally incompatible. On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > All I can say with some certainty is this thing will read ms-dos formatted = floppies. How else could it run ibm pc software if it didn't. The individual = jumbo isa card-motherboards are doled out their rations internally from the s= erver departmemt. No drices excwpt what tje server itself has. =20 --===============8312311930739043969==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Tue Dec 27 09:03:13 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 03:02:32 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <683940579.3261269.1672107588251@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0388379475323685723==" --===============0388379475323685723== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't followed the full thread here, but perhaps this might help: when I ported DestinyHunter (destinyhunter.org) from the 6502-based PET to the IBM PC, I gathered some notes on that process here https://destinyhunter.org/ibm-5150-development-notes/ Basically: programming on an actual vintage MS-DOS system is very painful these days. For starters, the 8.3 filenames and lack of COPY-PASTE. True, there are some vintage editors that will have a form of copy-paste. Another issue is some of those old editors are limited to 32KB or 64KB files (which with comments, sometimes you might get to pretty large files), and such old editors might not have multi-file support (like having .h and .c open at the same time). I programmed many years in the "old DOS days" with 8.3 filenames - reliving that wasn't for me. BUT, it is do-able. I did try Turbo C 2.0 to make a real-mode .com (the notes in the page setup a 486-emulation in 86BOX with a DOS 6.0 configuration). Since I had a project that already used long filenames, that was another reason I wanted to cross-compile from a modern system instead. If all the existing code was already in 8.3 filenames, maybe it would have been less of an issue. But in any case, the modern system is faster, so you can experiment and compile things in a few seconds -- but then you have to transfer the resulting binary to your vintage system (I was able to use FTP, but I can understand that' not being easy for everyone). As another option: I came across the WATCOM C/C++ compiler, but (AFAIK) it's no longer maintained and getting a "reliable" download of it was a challenge. All I recall was I ended up using version 1.9 instead of 2.0. It is an IDE of sorts, though I mostly still used an external editor (notepad++). I can't recall why I didn't use Lattice - maybe it/was Commercial? Another compiler is the Intel iC-86, but you end up having to use the Borland TLINK anyway with that. NOTE: I think both Turbo C and WATCOM C have code generation options for 80186 - although offhand I can't think of any specific code that would need/use 80186 features. And each of these compilers does have a slightly different variation of C (with some settings dials inside on how compliant to be). Another note: despite using _TINY_, Borland C is still going to make an EXE - you have to use Microsoft DOS 2.10 - 3.21 to run EXE2BIN to convert it to a .com. The next mess is "standard libraries." Borland was great, but they royally confused a whole generation of developers on what the "standard C library" actually meant. Like, conio.h is not standard. But regardless - when implementing the "C standard library" for disk I/O, no one would be re-implementing FAT -- that'd miss the whole point of having a "DOS". They'd implement it in terms of software interrupts - that hopefully were compatible between PC/DR/MS-DOS. "Self Booters" (like early versions of Zork, Microsoft Flight Simulator, early versions of King's Quest) had to implement their own file systems (and it's why they aren't easy to copy, since they use a non-MS-DOS format). Thinking about it now, I think making a self-booter disk of DestinyHunter might be an interesting challenge. For reference, some notes are as follows: https://www.cs.uaf.edu/2011/fall/cs301/lecture/11_18_bootblock.html http://philipstorr.id.au/pcbook/book1/post.htm That is, the IBM PC BIOS is pre-programmed to examine the first sector for code, and do the work of copying 512 bytes to RAM and running it. What you choose to do in that boot loader is then up to you (or the OS) -- which can't be any MS-DOS interrupt calls. I'm not sure what existing code could be borrowed to read additional bytes from the disk (an annotated disaassembly of the BIOS, or examining the MS-DOS code in github maybe as a starting point). Nothing in the "standard" library of Borland Turbo C or WATCOM C, etc. really helps here (none of the fopen, fscanf, stuff). So it's not that the compiler you're seeking doesn't exist -- but some "off the shelf" utility functions doesn't readily exist. You'd have to borrow or re-implement much of what MS-DOS is already doing (if the 180KB format was ok). Again, the early MS-DOS source code is out on github as a starting reference... As far as writing it specifically to the first sector of a 5.25" disk -- I never found a "USB adapter" for a 5.25" disk drive; plenty for the 3.5" drives, but maybe the 525" drw too much power for USB?). Good Luck! On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 8:20 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > It cannot rely on bios/ms-dos services for compiling preferably. Iow I'd > like to perform what I want to do on the target machine itself, LOL which > is hysterical as I've never even seen it boot even once. I could complie on > a standard pc I suppose and pop a disk in the Northstar Dimension. It would > be nice if it's optimized for it's 80186. Or at least supports it's > instructions. My goal is to get MINIX running on it, as the original > Netware-86 OS has proven to be more rare then really anything else. From > there I'd like to figure out how to support the pc compatible (or so we're > told) logic boards that are plugged into the motherboard like standard isa > cards, and even have 34 contacts on their card edge. > > It would be nice if someone had the ideal compiler package they don't need > and could sell. > --===============0388379475323685723==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 14:32:15 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 14:31:41 +0000 Message-ID: <1127205849.3579436.1672151501097@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4464060775065594047==" --===============4464060775065594047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apparently Northstar's dos is yet another amended version of ms-dos. I suppo= se it was supplied for basic tasks, as it couldn't possibly provide all the f= eatures supplied by Netware. So whereas this may not be as difficult as I tho= ught, there are still significant hurdles. The floppy drive's transfer rate i= s 250kbits/s. That probably isn't significant. =20 --===============4464060775065594047==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Tue Dec 27 15:11:59 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 08:11:24 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1127205849.3579436.1672151501097@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5417064304988583240==" --===============5417064304988583240== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Dec 27, 2022, 7:31 AM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Apparently Northstar's dos is yet another amended version of ms-dos. I > suppose it was supplied for basic tasks, as it couldn't possibly provide > all the features supplied by Netware. So whereas this may not be as > difficult as I thought, there are still significant hurdles. The floppy > drive's transfer rate is 250kbits/s. That probably isn't significant. The Dimension machine you have is PC compatible, more or less, according to the various places I found last night. In that era, MS-DOS provided part of the solution. It did the program loading and filesystem services. The ROMs provided the rest. The difference between the different MS-DOS versions for things like the Rainbow, Victor, Tandy etc were all in the IO.SYS file that handled the device drivers for the machines in question. It also handled the different floppy formats and often times hid the second stage boot loader in funky, machine specific places. In that era too a lot of software was in the ROMs and that's where 90-95% of the non-timing incompatibility was: The ROM routines weren't complete in the early clones (of which the Dimension was). And that was before there was one video card standard, so going direct to video memory was tricky (possible, and a lot of people did it, but there were many articles about how to probe for what's there, how to structure your code to make it less hard but still fast, etc). I suspect there is more there than you think, but probing it, or recreating the boot disks may require some unique to the machine fiddling... Warner > --===============5417064304988583240==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Dec 27 15:19:48 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 10:19:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4907140595190432192==" --===============4907140595190432192== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't have it handy, but there was a copy run by the Gimpel family near Philadelphia (don't remember the company name) whose well-respected C products worked on IBM DOS, OS/2, MAC and Amiga. I have versions for most if not all. So, I'd say that "general purpose" can yet be broken down by processor but there were companies who ported their C's to various platforms, at least in the microcomputer / microprocessor world. Bill On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 10:11 AM Warner Losh via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Dec 27, 2022, 7:31 AM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > Apparently Northstar's dos is yet another amended version of ms-dos. I > > suppose it was supplied for basic tasks, as it couldn't possibly provide > > all the features supplied by Netware. So whereas this may not be as > > difficult as I thought, there are still significant hurdles. The floppy > > drive's transfer rate is 250kbits/s. That probably isn't significant. > > > The Dimension machine you have is PC compatible, more or less, according to > the various places I found last night. > > In that era, MS-DOS provided part of the solution. It did the program > loading and filesystem services. The ROMs provided the rest. The difference > between the different MS-DOS versions for things like the Rainbow, Victor, > Tandy etc were all in the IO.SYS file that handled the device drivers for > the machines in question. It also handled the different floppy formats and > often times hid the second stage boot loader in funky, machine specific > places. > > In that era too a lot of software was in the ROMs and that's where 90-95% > of the non-timing incompatibility was: The ROM routines weren't complete in > the early clones (of which the Dimension was). And that was before there > was one video card standard, so going direct to video memory was tricky > (possible, and a lot of people did it, but there were many articles about > how to probe for what's there, how to structure your code to make it less > hard but still fast, etc). > > I suspect there is more there than you think, but probing it, or recreating > the boot disks may require some unique to the machine fiddling... > > Warner > > > > --===============4907140595190432192==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Tue Dec 27 16:15:23 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 08:14:50 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1127205849.3579436.1672151501097@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8320526130466308469==" --===============8320526130466308469== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Apparently Northstar's dos is yet another amended version of ms-dos. I > suppose it was supplied for basic tasks, as it couldn't possibly provide > all the features supplied by Netware. So whereas this may not be as > difficult as I thought, there are still significant hurdles. The floppy > drive's transfer rate is 250kbits/s. That probably isn't significant. Based on what I've read, the Dimension is "fully" PC compatible, which leads me to believe that there's not going to be any compatibility issues regarding screen i/o.. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============8320526130466308469==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Dec 27 16:33:41 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 08:33:15 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1127205849.3579436.1672151501097@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6650478803609389025==" --===============6650478803609389025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Apparently Northstar's dos is yet another amended version of ms-dos. I > suppose it was supplied for basic tasks, as it couldn't possibly provide > all the features supplied by Netware. So whereas this may not be as > difficult as I thought, there are still significant hurdles. The floppy > drive's transfer rate is 250kbits/s. That probably isn't significant. That is 5.25" MFM/"Double density" or 8" FM single density. --===============6650478803609389025==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Dec 27 17:47:14 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 09:46:12 -0800 Message-ID: <9e8f6181-1f9b-b2d0-470f-ae1c669b5fb9@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5495091104834239982==" --===============5495091104834239982== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/27/22 01:02, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > asically: programming on an actual vintage MS-DOS system is very painful > these days. For starters, the 8.3 filenames and lack of COPY-PASTE. > True, there are some vintage editors that will have a form of copy-paste. > Another issue is some of those old editors are limited to 32KB or 64KB > files (which with comments, sometimes you might get to pretty large files), > and such old editors might not have multi-file support (like having .h and > .c open at the same time). I programmed many years in the "old DOS days" > with 8.3 filenames - reliving that wasn't for me. BUT, it is do-able. 8.3 was luxurious.  How about 8 with no period or 6.3 or just trays I will say this about the old systems--by the time you sat down at the keypunch or sent your code to the keypunch pool, you had desk-checked your code carefully because it might be hours before you got to see the result.  It instilled a certain discipline.  You want interactive terminals?  How about a TTY?  The point is that a good programmer back in the day had his code written before setting pencil to coding form.  It used to be a joy watching the good veteran programmers sit down at a keypunch (the work is essentially "blind") without so much as a set of notes and turn out a complete program module from memory. To this day, my choice of editor is Joe on Linux--mostly because I need some program to get things down in bits.   I'm not a perfect touch-typist, as my high-school summer session typing teacher would have told you.   A simple editor works wonders if you've already written the code in your head.   One of the joys of programming low-end MCUs in my dotage is that I can write code pretty much from scratch. Modern WYSWYG editors with all of their styles and fonts are more of a burden to me because I can't simply write things down; they have to look good also.  For example, my idea of a table may not match the canned version in the editor, so I have to struggle. Granted, I'm old and should be rummaging around for a couple of pennies for my eyes.  026s and 407s have long become museum curiosities--and I suppose that I should join them. But I had to have my say.   Now get off my lawn! --Chuck --Chuck --===============5495091104834239982==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Dec 27 17:54:50 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 12:54:17 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <238fc529-f71e-91f3-8a70-37ea3e5553e2@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8067226608659256523==" --===============8067226608659256523== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/26/22 23:08, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >: > > "Lattice C was ported to MVS, VMS, Unix, OS/2, Amiga, Atari ST, and > Sinclair." > The TRS-80.... You left out the TRS-80... bill --===============8067226608659256523==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 20:57:36 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 20:57:07 +0000 Message-ID: <2019002207.3488252.1672174627580@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4908951464810351771==" --===============4908951464810351771== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll pull it out and take photos of the mainboard later. Ve shall see. That = scary monster sure didn't look like a pc to me. On Tuesday, December 27, 2022, 11:15:06 AM EST, geneb via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Apparently Northstar's dos is yet another amended version of ms-dos. I=20 > suppose it was supplied for basic tasks, as it couldn't possibly provide=20 > all the features supplied by Netware. So whereas this may not be as=20 > difficult as I thought, there are still significant hurdles. The floppy=20 > drive's transfer rate is 250kbits/s. That probably isn't significant. Based on what I've read, the Dimension is "fully" PC compatible, which=20 leads me to believe that there's not going to be any compatibility issues=20 regarding screen i/o.. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby.=C2=A0 Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! =20 --===============4908951464810351771==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 02:48:15 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 02:47:44 +0000 Message-ID: <432420923.3784843.1672195664159@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <432420923.3784843.1672195664159.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8232308678894246533==" --===============8232308678894246533== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in Radio Elec= tronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking about? It would be = a fun prokect. --===============8232308678894246533==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Dec 28 02:59:10 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 20:58:42 -0600 Message-ID: <09df3cdc-20c8-30fa-05df-a4d2261c4230@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: <432420923.3784843.1672195664159@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1169310702705884590==" --===============1169310702705884590== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/27/2022 8:47 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in Radio El= ectronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking about? It would b= e a fun prokect. I remember it, and I believe I have all those issues, as a project to=20 complete at some point. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============1169310702705884590==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Dec 28 03:04:55 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 21:04:23 -0600 Message-ID: <955209688.998371.1672196663414@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <09df3cdc-20c8-30fa-05df-a4d2261c4230@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6898793807029861484==" --===============6898793807029861484== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://peripheraltech.com/PT68K2 > On 12/27/2022 8:58 PM CST Jim Brain via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 >=20 > On 12/27/2022 8:47 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in Radio = Electronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking about? It would= be a fun prokect. > I remember it, and I believe I have all those issues, as a project to > complete at some point. >=20 > Jim >=20 > -- > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla --===============6898793807029861484==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 03:05:16 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 03:04:22 +0000 Message-ID: <1446428532.3794090.1672196662131@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <09df3cdc-20c8-30fa-05df-a4d2261c4230@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6680437866845849822==" --===============6680437866845849822== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What will you do for firmware? I do believe the developer was around, maybe = still is. But wanted an enormous amount of money. On Tuesday, December 27, 2022, 09:58:51 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On 12/27/2022 8:47 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in Radio El= ectronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking about? It would b= e a fun prokect. I remember it, and I believe I have all those issues, as a project to=20 complete at some point. Jim --=20 Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com =20 --===============6680437866845849822==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Wed Dec 28 03:08:25 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 19:07:51 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <955209688.998371.1672196663414@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8269082513466578176==" --===============8269082513466578176== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 7:04 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > http://peripheraltech.com/PT68K2 $399-450. Ouch. Too bad there aren't open-source Gerbers as I have most of the parts for this knocking around. > > > > > > On 12/27/2022 8:58 PM CST Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > On 12/27/2022 8:47 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > > It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in > Radio Electronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking about? > It would be a fun prokect. > > I remember it, and I believe I have all those issues, as a project to > > complete at some point. > > > > Jim > > > > -- > > Jim Brain > > brain(a)jbrain.com > > www.jbrain.com > > I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by > married men. Nikola Tesla > --===============8269082513466578176==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Dec 28 03:09:33 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 21:09:09 -0600 Message-ID: <1104391071.998589.1672196949841@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <1446428532.3794090.1672196662131@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4204919911587159334==" --===============4204919911587159334== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable boot eprom download -- scroll down https://peripheraltech.com/PT68K1A.htm > On 12/27/2022 9:04 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > What will you do for firmware? I do believe the developer was around, maybe= still is. But wanted an enormous amount of money. > On Tuesday, December 27, 2022, 09:58:51 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 12/27/2022 8:47 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in Radio = Electronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking about? It would= be a fun prokect. > I remember it, and I believe I have all those issues, as a project to > complete at some point. >=20 > Jim >=20 > -- > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla --===============4204919911587159334==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 03:37:07 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 03:36:40 +0000 Message-ID: <1599270898.3582891.1672198600934@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1104391071.998589.1672196949841@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3442272046580073001==" --===============3442272046580073001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Those are for a different board. Maybe close enough? On Tuesday, December 27, 2022, 10:09:16 PM EST, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 boot eprom download -- scroll down https://peripheraltech.com/PT68K1A.htm > On 12/27/2022 9:04 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > What will you do for firmware? I do believe the developer was around, maybe= still is. But wanted an enormous amount of money. > On Tuesday, December 27, 2022, 09:58:51 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 12/27/2022 8:47 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > It's a IBM PC form factor 68000 based project that was featured in Radio = Electronics. Anyone remember it or even know what I'm talking about? It would= be a fun prokect. > I remember it, and I believe I have all those issues, as a project to > complete at some point. >=20 > Jim >=20 > -- > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla =20 --===============3442272046580073001==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 03:40:09 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 03:39:23 +0000 Message-ID: <538375514.3809259.1672198763369@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8481773457558092723==" --===============8481773457558092723== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't have the whole range of articles, but often pcb artwork was included= right in the magazine. Better then nuffin. On Tuesday, December 27, 2022, 10:08:08 PM EST, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 7:04 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > http://peripheraltech.com/PT68K2 $399-450. Ouch. Too bad there aren't open-source Gerbers as I have most of the parts for this knocking around. =20 --===============8481773457558092723==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Dec 28 03:48:01 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 21:47:37 -0600 Message-ID: <419801612.737057.1672199257758@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <1599270898.3582891.1672198600934@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0144870614387711269==" --===============0144870614387711269== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/27/2022 9:36 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Those are for a different board. Maybe close enough? >=20 If you read the description it says the only difference is the clock chip, wh= ich I believe is "fully" compatible. --===============0144870614387711269==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Dec 28 03:52:54 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 22:52:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <419801612.737057.1672199257758@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8451711284363546349==" --===============8451711284363546349== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Which issue of Radio Electronics? Bill On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 10:47 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 12/27/2022 9:36 PM CST Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > Those are for a different board. Maybe close enough? > > > > If you read the description it says the only difference is the clock chip, > which I believe is "fully" compatible. > --===============8451711284363546349==-- From brain@jbrain.com Wed Dec 28 03:56:31 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 21:56:02 -0600 Message-ID: <1c138fd6-4697-2608-32c7-16187de94abb@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2709905452148733234==" --===============2709905452148733234== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/27/2022 9:52 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Which issue of Radio Electronics? "Build the PT-68K" Oct 1987 and Nov 1987 and Dec 1987 and Jan 1988 and Feb 1988 and Apr 1988 and May 1988 and Jun 1988 and Jul 1988 and Aug 1988 and Sept 1988 and Dec 1988 and Jan 1989 --===============2709905452148733234==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Dec 28 03:58:06 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 21:57:36 -0600 Message-ID: <60231582.737532.1672199856365@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4816598393438744317==" --===============4816598393438744317== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/27/2022 9:52 PM CST Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Which issue of Radio Electronics? > Bill >=20 I don't know which issues it's in, but they are all here: https://worldradiohistory.com/Radio_Electronics%20_Master_Page.htm --===============4816598393438744317==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 04:12:43 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 04:12:16 +0000 Message-ID: <1381561112.3589978.1672200736773@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <60231582.737532.1672199856365@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7508020706423783757==" --===============7508020706423783757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While not necessarily the basis fir the pt68k, there was a similar European = project computer that was touched on a month or 2 earlier. I have not seen or= heard any other mention anywhere else though. The box they had it in had an = exceptionally sexy bezel. There was also Fidel Castros Cuban computer. I want to say that was 8088 base= d, but don't really know. Hell they're probably still using them! On Tuesday, December 27, 2022, 10:57:46 PM EST, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 =20 > On 12/27/2022 9:52 PM CST Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Which issue of Radio Electronics? > Bill >=20 I don't know which issues it's in, but they are all here: https://worldradiohistory.com/Radio_Electronics%20_Master_Page.htm =20 --===============7508020706423783757==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Dec 28 04:14:17 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 22:13:50 -0600 Message-ID: <2036331639.737957.1672200830193@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <60231582.737532.1672199856365@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4439722253671618136==" --===============4439722253671618136== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/27/2022 9:57 PM CST Will Cooke via cctalk w= rote: >=20 >=20 > > On 12/27/2022 9:52 PM CST Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > >=20 > > Which issue of Radio Electronics? > > Bill > >=20 > I don't know which issues it's in, but they are all here: > https://worldradiohistory.com/Radio_Electronics%20_Master_Page.htm They appear to start in Oct 87 and there is one article on DRAM for it as lat= e as June 88. https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio-Electronics/80s/1987/Radio-Electr= onics-1987-10.pdf --===============4439722253671618136==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 04:29:21 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 04:28:52 +0000 Message-ID: <1588201397.3588994.1672201732638@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1381561112.3589978.1672200736773@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6391940573999093237==" --===============6391940573999093237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "While not necessarily the basis fir the pt68k, there was a similar European= project computer that was touched on a month or 2 earlier. I have not seen o= r heard any other mention anywhere else though. The box they had it in had an= exceptionally sexy bezel." March and May 1987. It was nothing more then an intro to a project they could= have featured. But that bezel! =20 --===============6391940573999093237==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Dec 28 06:32:13 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 01:31:32 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1588201397.3588994.1672201732638@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5969381896898663557==" --===============5969381896898663557== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks everyone who responded. I believe I have all of these in the library at Kennet Classic, donated by the Wilmington public library. We rescued them from the trash heap. Bill On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 11:29 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > "While not necessarily the basis fir the pt68k, there was a similar > European project computer that was touched on a month or 2 earlier. I have > not seen or heard any other mention anywhere else though. The box they had > it in had an exceptionally sexy bezel." > > March and May 1987. It was nothing more then an intro to a project they > could have featured. But that bezel! --===============5969381896898663557==-- From david4602@gmail.com Wed Dec 28 18:02:08 2022 From: David Schmidt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] imd2raw.c correction - linearizing ImageDisk images Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 13:01:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0654571775637696632==" --===============0654571775637696632== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been a few versions of the utility imd2raw.c floating around that will take Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk-created images (i.e. an .IMD file) and make a linear binary image devoid of any metadata. This is similar to the function of Dave's IMDU.COM program's /b switch. I've corrected a problem with the assumption that all imd2raw.c descendants to date have made: sectors that have a skew (i.e. not 1-1 interleaved) weren't linearized correctly. The skewed sectors need to be written out in "sorted" order, which is not necessarily captured/physical order. This is easily verified by comparing output from "IMDU /b" to earlier imd2raw outputs on any .IMD that has a sector skew that isn't 1, 2, 3 [...]. It's up on github here: https://github.com/RetroFloppy/imd2raw --===============0654571775637696632==-- From jjacocks@mac.com Wed Dec 28 19:52:39 2022 From: Alexander Jacocks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 14:45:00 -0500 Message-ID: <1FA923DC-C047-4F70-8326-E18B6191F1FD@mac.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1013160316768753997==" --===============1013160316768753997== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 28, 2022, at 1:31 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThanks everyone who responded. I believe I have all of these in t= he > library at Kennet Classic, donated by the Wilmington public library. We > rescued them from the trash heap. > Bill That looks like an exceptionally cool project. If anyone here thinking of rec= reating the gerbers? I=E2=80=99d be interested in a board if that happens. There are a number of 68000 based machines currently available, but this one = is quite appealing due to the ease of expansion. - Alex --===============1013160316768753997==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Dec 28 20:00:31 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: imd2raw.c correction - linearizing ImageDisk images Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 11:59:56 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6816250911276188034==" --===============6816250911276188034== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/28/22 10:01, David Schmidt via cctalk wrote: > There have been a few versions of the utility imd2raw.c floating around > that will take Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk-created images (i.e. an .IMD file) > and make a linear binary image devoid of any metadata. This is similar to > the function of Dave's IMDU.COM program's /b switch. > > I've corrected a problem with the assumption that all imd2raw.c descendants > to date have made: sectors that have a skew (i.e. not 1-1 interleaved) > weren't linearized correctly. The skewed sectors need to be written out in > "sorted" order, which is not necessarily captured/physical order. This is > easily verified by comparing output from "IMDU /b" to earlier imd2raw > outputs on any .IMD that has a sector skew that isn't 1, 2, 3 [...]. > > It's up on github here: > https://github.com/RetroFloppy/imd2raw David, may we assume that the original IMDU does things correctly? Thanks, Chuck --===============6816250911276188034==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Dec 28 20:58:35 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: imd2raw.c correction - linearizing ImageDisk images Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 12:58:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8579608659869080553==" --===============8579608659869080553== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I've corrected a problem with the assumption that all imd2raw.c descendants >> to date have made: sectors that have a skew (i.e. not 1-1 interleaved) >> weren't linearized correctly. The skewed sectors need to be written out in >> "sorted" order, which is not necessarily captured/physical order. This is >> easily verified by comparing output from "IMDU /b" to earlier imd2raw >> outputs on any .IMD that has a sector skew that isn't 1, 2, 3 [...]. >> It's up on github here: >> https://github.com/RetroFloppy/imd2raw On Wed, 28 Dec 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > David, may we assume that the original IMDU does things correctly? Ah, but what is "correctly"? It is one thing if you are going to use it to recreate a physical disk; quite another if you intend to use the image in an emulator. Machine A has sectors on the disk numbered 1,2,3,4,5, but the file content is in sectors 1,4,2,5,3 Machine B has sectors ordered on the disk as 1,4,2,5,3, but the file content is in sectors 1,2,3,4,5 ... and many others ALL of those are equally valid ways to get around disk I/O that can't handle 1:1 One machine uses track 0A,1A,2A...39A,0B,1B,2B... next machine uses tracks 0A,0B,1A,1B... Another machine uses track 0A,1A,2A...39A,39B,38B,37B... . . . and severaal others and many others. "Sorted" order might or might not be captured physical order, unless you happen to know what that machine did. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8579608659869080553==-- From david4602@gmail.com Wed Dec 28 21:05:55 2022 From: David Schmidt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: imd2raw.c correction - linearizing ImageDisk images Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 21:05:28 +0000 Message-ID: <167226152896.1586.13082637144273396755@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2904067318137410116==" --===============2904067318137410116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck Guzis wrote: > David, may we assume that the original IMDU does things correctly? "Correctly" is not a word I'd necessarily use - but what is true is that the = original imd2raw.c does it *differently* than IMDU.COM. I am using IMDU as m= y oracle, and have tuned imd2raw.c so that it matches what IMDU does (with re= spect to sector ordering). It's the case that various tools can make their own assumptions about sector = skew (or not), and can compensate (or not) as they see fit. IMDU's contract = is that you'll get a binary image out in logical rather than physical sector = order. --===============2904067318137410116==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Wed Dec 28 21:06:17 2022 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 12:28:47 -0800 Message-ID: <634818C3-63F7-4421-A35D-45F80EE28E97@eschatologist.net> In-Reply-To: <419801612.737057.1672199257758@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3447773811650264613==" --===============3447773811650264613== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dec 27, 2022, at 7:47 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >> On 12/27/2022 9:36 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> Those are for a different board. Maybe close enough? >=20 > If you read the description it says the only difference is the clock chip, = which I believe is "fully" compatible. That=E2=80=99s the difference between the PT68K1 and PT68K1A. The system feat= ured in Peter Stark=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CBuild the PT-68K=E2=80=9D series in Ra= dio-Electronics was actually the PT68K2, which is the version with PC-XT slot= s, keyboard support, and PCB size/layout. There don=E2=80=99t seem to be ROM = images on the web site for that. They do exist on Bitsavers, look for Peripheral Technology. =E2=80=94 Chris --===============3447773811650264613==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 21:20:00 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 21:19:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1386688719.3821095.1672262366459@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <634818C3-63F7-4421-A35D-45F80EE28E97@eschatologist.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5908873732106114473==" --===============5908873732106114473== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 This file (mp68k4.zip)?: http://bitsavers.org/bits/PeripheralTechnology/ That file contains the original roms as supplied with tne Radio Electronics v= ersion? On Wednesday, December 28, 2022, 04:05:51 PM EST, Chris Hanson vi= a cctalk wrote: =20 =20 On Dec 27, 2022, at 7:47 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >> On 12/27/2022 9:36 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> Those are for a different board. Maybe close enough? >=20 > If you read the description it says the only difference is the clock chip, = which I believe is "fully" compatible. That=E2=80=99s the difference between the PT68K1 and PT68K1A. The system feat= ured in Peter Stark=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CBuild the PT-68K=E2=80=9D series in Ra= dio-Electronics was actually the PT68K2, which is the version with PC-XT slot= s, keyboard support, and PCB size/layout. There don=E2=80=99t seem to be ROM = images on the web site for that. They do exist on Bitsavers, look for Peripheral Technology. =C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Chris =20 --===============5908873732106114473==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Dec 28 21:23:19 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: imd2raw.c correction - linearizing ImageDisk images Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 13:22:44 -0800 Message-ID: <0b466147-8fd7-5fac-d43c-6a9495eb636e@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <167226152896.1586.13082637144273396755@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8953821724753562269==" --===============8953821724753562269== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/28/22 13:05, David Schmidt via cctalk wrote: > It's the case that various tools can make their own assumptions about > sec= tor skew (or not), and can compensate (or not) as they see fit. > IMDU's contract is that you'll get a binary image out in logical > rather than physical sector order. Just to clarify, if the formatted order is 1,3,5,2,4, IMDU will return the sectors numbered as 1,2,3,4,5, right? Works for me for data recovery.=C2=A0 Probably works for the original equipment, but not optimally. --Chuck --===============8953821724753562269==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 21:37:15 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 21:36:48 +0000 Message-ID: <1957636054.3814443.1672263408315@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1386688719.3821095.1672262366459@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8912697791774026832==" --===============8912697791774026832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What was the name of Steve Ciarcia's outfit, Micromint? I see no entries for= that. That bizarro-world IBM compatible he offered years ago is insane enoug= h to love. Want to build me one. =20 --===============8912697791774026832==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Dec 28 21:58:52 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 15:58:28 -0600 Message-ID: <2051118449.1197677.1672264708015@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <1957636054.3814443.1672263408315@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1615656574557530543==" --===============1615656574557530543== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/28/2022 3:36 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > What was the name of Steve Ciarcia's outfit, Micromint? I see no entries fo= r that. That bizarro-world IBM compatible he offered years ago is insane enou= gh to love. Want to build me one. His company was Micromint. The computer was the MPX-16 https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Consumer/Archive-Byte-IDX/IDX/80s/82-83= /Byte-1982-12-OCR-Page-0044.pdf --===============1615656574557530543==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 22:02:43 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 22:02:15 +0000 Message-ID: <790447734.4055564.1672264935501@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2051118449.1197677.1672264708015@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6296980683356415126==" --===============6296980683356415126== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's only page 1 lol.=20 Artwork for the board/s never was published as I recall. I wonder if he still= has it. On Wednesday, December 28, 2022, 04:58:34 PM EST, Will Cooke via cctalk = wrote: =20 =20 =20 > On 12/28/2022 3:36 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > What was the name of Steve Ciarcia's outfit, Micromint? I see no entries fo= r that. That bizarro-world IBM compatible he offered years ago is insane enou= gh to love. Want to build me one. His company was Micromint.=C2=A0 The computer was the MPX-16 https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Consumer/Archive-Byte-IDX/IDX/80s/82-83= /Byte-1982-12-OCR-Page-0044.pdf =20 --===============6296980683356415126==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Dec 28 22:07:48 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 16:07:23 -0600 Message-ID: <1777226367.1199853.1672265243528@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <790447734.4055564.1672264935501@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9065107434981636220==" --===============9065107434981636220== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, I know it's just one page of one article of a series of them. The rest = are in the pages of Byte, which are on the same web site. There is also a sto= ry about it on the web, written by Steve. With the name and date from that on= e page, a quick search turns up lots of stuff. > On 12/28/2022 4:02 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > That's only page 1 lol. >=20 > Artwork for the board/s never was published as I recall. I wonder if he sti= ll has it. > On Wednesday, December 28, 2022, 04:58:34 PM EST, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > > On 12/28/2022 3:36 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrot= e: > >=20 > >=20 > > What was the name of Steve Ciarcia's outfit, Micromint? I see no entries = for that. That bizarro-world IBM compatible he offered years ago is insane en= ough to love. Want to build me one. > His company was Micromint. The computer was the MPX-16 >=20 > https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Consumer/Archive-Byte-IDX/IDX/80s/82-= 83/Byte-1982-12-OCR-Page-0044.pdf I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla --===============9065107434981636220==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Dec 28 22:21:32 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 22:21:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1777226367.1199853.1672265243528@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8470218187200186852==" --===============8470218187200186852== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Circuitcellar magazine is still around. I think Steve sold it a while ago the= n bought it back just a few years ago. Try contacting him at https://circuitc= ellar.com Sent from my iPhone On Dec 28, 2022, at 14:07, Will Cooke via cctalk wr= ote: =EF=BB=BFYeah, I know it's just one page of one article of a series of them. = The rest are in the pages of Byte, which are on the same web site. There is a= lso a story about it on the web, written by Steve. With the name and date fro= m that one page, a quick search turns up lots of stuff. On 12/28/2022 4:02 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: That's only page 1 lol. Artwork for the board/s never was published as I recall. I wonder if he still= has it. On Wednesday, December 28, 2022, 04:58:34 PM EST, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: On 12/28/2022 3:36 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: What was the name of Steve Ciarcia's outfit, Micromint? I see no entries for = that. That bizarro-world IBM compatible he offered years ago is insane enough= to love. Want to build me one. His company was Micromint. The computer was the MPX-16 https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Consumer/Archive-Byte-IDX/IDX/80s/82-83= /Byte-1982-12-OCR-Page-0044.pdf I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla --===============8470218187200186852==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 22:39:25 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 22:38:56 +0000 Message-ID: <1350059872.4047514.1672267136241@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181CBBC6145730D27240CC5E4F29=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6931424747181490338==" --===============6931424747181490338== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I contacted CCI years ago. I didn't know he acquired it. Inquiry sent. --===============6931424747181490338==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Dec 28 22:48:33 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 14:48:10 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1957636054.3814443.1672263408315@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0374603034356415032==" --===============0374603034356415032== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 28 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > What was the name of Steve Ciarcia's outfit, Micromint? I see no entries > for that. That bizarro-world IBM compatible he offered years ago is > insane enough to love. Want to build me one. micromint MPX-16 I had two of them, one having the optional board for 5150/5160 keyboard. I ran the DeSmet compiler on them. 20? years ago, I had to give away a lot of stuff, including them. I think that Sellam got them, but much of his collection was lost. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0374603034356415032==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Dec 28 23:20:52 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 15:20:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8152662189232653112==" --===============8152662189232653112== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, Those don't sound familiar, are they SBCs? If I did end up with them, it's a crap shoot as to whether they'll turn up or not. I was left with 20% of the collection and I've gone through about 25% of that 20%, and I re-discover neat and interesting stuff all the time as I continue to dig through boxes. Sellam On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 2:48 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 28 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > What was the name of Steve Ciarcia's outfit, Micromint? I see no entries > > for that. That bizarro-world IBM compatible he offered years ago is > > insane enough to love. Want to build me one. > > micromint MPX-16 > > I had two of them, one having the optional board for 5150/5160 keyboard. > I ran the DeSmet compiler on them. > > 20? years ago, I had to give away a lot of stuff, including them. I think > that Sellam got them, but much of his collection was lost. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============8152662189232653112==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Dec 28 23:40:55 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 15:40:31 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2708638878151246955==" --===============2708638878151246955== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not likely to show up. They looked generally like a PC motherboard. They had 9 62 pin ISA slots, with alternate (5) positioned same as 5150=20 (could use a 5150 case), and then another 4 placed in between those. (for those who don't remember, 5150 (PC) had 5 slots; 5160 (XT) had 8=20 slots, but the spacing was different. Also, one slot of the XT had=20 "timing difference(s)", so IBM filled it with a "FREE" serial port, so=20 that people wouldn't plug other boards into it.) I MIGHT have had one in an aftermarket 5150 case (same as aftermarket 5160=20 case, but with removable back slot panel, with a 5 slot panel) One was loose - instead of a case, it rested on top of an issue of=20 MicroTimes. I did not have top covers on many of my machines. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Wed, 28 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Fred, > > Those don't sound familiar, are they SBCs? > > If I did end up with them, it's a crap shoot as to whether they'll turn up > or not. I was left with 20% of the collection and I've gone through about > 25% of that 20%, and I re-discover neat and interesting stuff all the time > as I continue to dig through boxes. > > Sellam > > On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 2:48 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>> What was the name of Steve Ciarcia's outfit, Micromint? I see no entries >>> for that. That bizarro-world IBM compatible he offered years ago is >>> insane enough to love. Want to build me one. >> >> micromint MPX-16 >> >> I had two of them, one having the optional board for 5150/5160 keyboard. >> I ran the DeSmet compiler on them. >> >> 20? years ago, I had to give away a lot of stuff, including them. I think >> that Sellam got them, but much of his collection was lost. >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >> --===============2708638878151246955==-- From david4602@gmail.com Thu Dec 29 00:09:16 2022 From: David Schmidt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: imd2raw.c correction - linearizing ImageDisk images Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 00:08:50 +0000 Message-ID: <167227253084.1586.10844598151509820682@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <0b466147-8fd7-5fac-d43c-6a9495eb636e@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1298457639604344250==" --===============1298457639604344250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck Guzis wrote: > Just to clarify, if the formatted order is 1,3,5,2,4, IMDU will return > the sectors numbered as 1,2,3,4,5, right? A visual way to think about this is with IMDV. If you bring up a skewed imag= e in IMDV and move forward through the sectors with the right arrow, it incre= ments the _logical_ sectors by one (and you may see the _physical_ sectors fl= ip all over the place). So it outputs disk images in the order you'd see the= m coming out of the upper-right hand side of the screen, the logical sector o= rder. I believe that is in keeping with what you wrote above. > Works for me for data recovery.=C2=A0 Probably works for the original > equipment, but not optimally. It is not at all good for original equipment. It is good for emulation and m= anipulation tools. The original .IMD has all the metadata to "do the right t= hing" for reconstituting a disk image for real hardware. A linear image is f= or when you've shed the mortal coil. (Sorry for the delayed responses... the website is giving "server errors" unt= il a few hours pass after a thread is updated. It's quite annoying. Since I= normally consume digests, the website is where I need to go to make individu= al responses.) --===============1298457639604344250==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Dec 29 00:21:42 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 00:21:11 +0000 Message-ID: <1947527447.4087341.1672273271720@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4542185966626005932==" --===============4542185966626005932== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do seem to recall some off the wall looking case in the articles. I'm not = going to reread them right now. I was under the misconceived assumption these= would all be foumd in such a case. On Wednesday, December 28, 2022, 06:40:38 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: =20 =20 Not likely to show up. They looked generally like a PC motherboard. They had 9 62 pin ISA slots, with alternate (5) positioned same as 5150=20 (could use a 5150 case), and then another 4 placed in between those. (for those who don't remember, 5150 (PC) had 5 slots; 5160 (XT) had 8=20 slots, but the spacing was different.=C2=A0 Also, one slot of the XT had=20 "timing difference(s)", so IBM filled it with a "FREE" serial port, so=20 that people wouldn't plug other boards into it.) I MIGHT have had one in an aftermarket 5150 case (same as aftermarket 5160=20 case, but with removable back slot panel, with a 5 slot panel) One was loose - instead of a case, it rested on top of an issue of=20 MicroTimes. I did not have top covers on many of my machines. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cisin(a)xe= nosoft.com On Wed, 28 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Fred, > > Those don't sound familiar, are they SBCs? > > If I did end up with them, it's a crap shoot as to whether they'll turn up > or not.=C2=A0 I was left with 20% of the collection and I've gone through a= bout > 25% of that 20%, and I re-discover neat and interesting stuff all the time > as I continue to dig through boxes. > > Sellam > > On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 2:48 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>> What was the name of Steve Ciarcia's outfit, Micromint? I see no entries >>> for that. That bizarro-world IBM compatible he offered years ago is >>> insane enough to love. Want to build me one. >> >> micromint MPX-16 >> >> I had two of them, one having the optional board for 5150/5160 keyboard. >> I ran the DeSmet compiler on them. >> >> 20? years ago, I had to give away a lot of stuff, including them.=C2=A0 I = think >> that Sellam got them, but much of his collection was lost. >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cis= in(a)xenosoft.com >> =20 --===============4542185966626005932==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Dec 29 00:38:45 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 16:38:21 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1947527447.4087341.1672273271720@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5604302448022811076==" --===============5604302448022811076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I do seem to recall some off the wall looking case in the articles. I'm=20 > not going to reread them right now. I was under the misconceived=20 > assumption these would all be foumd in such a case. The two that I had both came as just motherboards. I put one, along with an ordinary 5160 power supply (had to make a cable)=20 into an aftermarket case for 5150/5160, using the 5150 back panel, which=20 gave me external access to every other slot of the MPX-16. I considered putting into a Compaq luggable case. The other one sat on top of an issue of MicroTimes, on top of a two drawer=20 file cabinet, with disk drives and the power supply sitting next to it.=20 That power supply, which happened to come along with that motherboard was=20 long and thin, and didn't fit anything else that I owned. I had a=20 terminal on another file cabinet next to it. I think that I ran MS-DOS 2.00 I don't remember them being offered in cases, ready to use, but they may=20 well have been, despite my not being interested in that configuration. In those days, I sometimes soldered sockets onto bare generic xt/5160=20 motherboards. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > On Wednesday, December 28, 2022, 06:40:38 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk= wrote: > > Not likely to show up. > > They looked generally like a PC motherboard. > They had 9 62 pin ISA slots, with alternate (5) positioned same as 5150 > (could use a 5150 case), and then another 4 placed in between those. > (for those who don't remember, 5150 (PC) had 5 slots; 5160 (XT) had 8 > slots, but the spacing was different.=C2=A0 Also, one slot of the XT had > "timing difference(s)", so IBM filled it with a "FREE" serial port, so > that people wouldn't plug other boards into it.) > > > I MIGHT have had one in an aftermarket 5150 case (same as aftermarket 5160 > case, but with removable back slot panel, with a 5 slot panel) > One was loose - instead of a case, it rested on top of an issue of > MicroTimes. > > I did not have top covers on many of my machines. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cisin(a)= xenosoft.com > > > On Wed, 28 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > >> Fred, >> >> Those don't sound familiar, are they SBCs? >> >> If I did end up with them, it's a crap shoot as to whether they'll turn up >> or not.=C2=A0 I was left with 20% of the collection and I've gone through = about >> 25% of that 20%, and I re-discover neat and interesting stuff all the time >> as I continue to dig through boxes. >> >> Sellam >> >> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 2:48 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>>> What was the name of Steve Ciarcia's outfit, Micromint? I see no entries >>>> for that. That bizarro-world IBM compatible he offered years ago is >>>> insane enough to love. Want to build me one. >>> >>> micromint MPX-16 >>> >>> I had two of them, one having the optional board for 5150/5160 keyboard. >>> I ran the DeSmet compiler on them. >>> >>> 20? years ago, I had to give away a lot of stuff, including them.=C2=A0 I= think >>> that Sellam got them, but much of his collection was lost. >>> >>> -- >>> Grumpy Ol' Fred=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ci= sin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5604302448022811076==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Dec 29 00:42:47 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 18:42:22 -0600 Message-ID: <2092263877.1221949.1672274542690@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <1947527447.4087341.1672273271720@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0639925001766620597==" --===============0639925001766620597== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 12/28/2022 6:21 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > I do seem to recall some off the wall looking case in the articles. I'm not= going to reread them right now. I was under the misconceived assumption thes= e would all be foumd in such a case. >=20 Apparently they sold a LOT of them, according to Steve in this article: Let me warn any budding entrepreneurs that these four events test your gambli= ng tactics more than your business acumen. In my case, Ciarcia=E2=80=99s Circ= uit Cellar was the product 30 years ago, along with the supporting manufactur= ing company. It grew quickly and afforded certain luxuries (e.g., Porsches, B= MWs, Ferraris, etc.) typically necessary in our culture to designate achievem= ent. Too little business was not an issue. Will --===============0639925001766620597==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Dec 29 01:36:34 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 19:36:05 -0600 Message-ID: <1828098633.1226189.1672277765161@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <2092263877.1221949.1672274542690@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5366251053639925753==" --===============5366251053639925753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I should probably put the right parts in. https://circuitcellar.com/cc-blog/ciarcia-onward-upward/ "Let me warn any budding entrepreneurs that these four events test your gambl= ing tactics more than your business acumen. In my case, Ciarcia=E2=80=99s Cir= cuit Cellar was the product 30 years ago, along with the supporting manufactu= ring company. It grew quickly and afforded certain luxuries (e.g., Porsches, = BMWs, Ferraris, etc.) typically necessary in our culture to designate achieve= ment. Too little business was not an issue. The =E2=80=9Ctoo much business=E2=80=9D event happened right after the introd= uction of the IBM PC. Circuit Cellar was the third company in the country to = market an IBM PC clone. I thought it was a good idea. Everybody who couldn=E2= =80=99t get a real IBM PC started banging on our door for an MPX-16. We got $= 1 million in orders in just a few weeks! What was I supposed to do? Certainly= not what 99% of you would have done=E2=80=94I stopped taking orders!" > On 12/28/2022 6:42 PM CST Will Cooke via cctalk w= rote: >=20 >=20 > > On 12/28/2022 6:21 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrot= e: > >=20 > >=20 > > I do seem to recall some off the wall looking case in the articles. I'm n= ot going to reread them right now. I was under the misconceived assumption th= ese would all be foumd in such a case. > >=20 > Apparently they sold a LOT of them, according to Steve in this article: > Let me warn any budding entrepreneurs that these four events test your gamb= ling tactics more than your business acumen. In my case, Ciarcia=E2=80=99s Ci= rcuit Cellar was the product 30 years ago, along with the supporting manufact= uring company. It grew quickly and afforded certain luxuries (e.g., Porsches,= BMWs, Ferraris, etc.) typically necessary in our culture to designate achiev= ement. Too little business was not an issue. >=20 > Will I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla --===============5366251053639925753==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Thu Dec 29 03:26:24 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 19:25:43 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1c138fd6-4697-2608-32c7-16187de94abb@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0154462206160175298==" --===============0154462206160175298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 7:56 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > "Build the PT-68K" > Oct 1987 and Nov 1987 and Dec 1987 and Jan 1988 and Feb 1988 and Apr > 1988 and May 1988 and Jun 1988 and Jul 1988 and Aug 1988 and Sept 1988 > and Dec 1988 and Jan 1989 > On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 7:57 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > I don't know which issues it's in, but they are all here: > https://worldradiohistory.com/Radio_Electronics%20_Master_Page.htm Wow reading those old articles is interesting. Reminds one how far we've moved from the computer hobbyist era, truly a byegone era. Of course I'd forgotten how magazines spooned out an article 4 pages per month to maintain subscriptions. If only they had foreseen the era of Netflix binging. I merged all the issues, removed all the unrelated pages, deskewed and OCRd. If anyone is interested (assuming the info is public domain) I can upload somewhere. --===============0154462206160175298==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Dec 29 04:12:20 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 04:11:51 +0000 Message-ID: <336132290.4124707.1672287111052@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8881817402018421516==" --===============8881817402018421516== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just want to know if Desmet will run on it. IT'S A JOKE But then again maybe there was a Desmet for 68k. Hmmm. --===============8881817402018421516==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Thu Dec 29 04:31:38 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 04:31:09 +0000 Message-ID: <599667256.4129846.1672288269919@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1828098633.1226189.1672277765161@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8153117636642020182==" --===============8153117636642020182== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So Columbia, Compaq, Circuit Cellar? It probably wouldn't have been dirt cheap to put together, over a grand, whic= h was not a lot considering. But it seems he must have fumbled the ball. He c= ould habe been really big time. On Wednesday, December 28, 2022, 08:36:15 PM EST, Will Cooke via cctalk = wrote: =20 =20 I should probably put the right parts in. https://circuitcellar.com/cc-blog/ciarcia-onward-upward/ "Let me warn any budding entrepreneurs that these four events test your gambl= ing tactics more than your business acumen. In my case, Ciarcia=E2=80=99s Cir= cuit Cellar was the product 30 years ago, along with the supporting manufactu= ring company. It grew quickly and afforded certain luxuries (e.g., Porsches, = BMWs, Ferraris, etc.) typically necessary in our culture to designate achieve= ment. Too little business was not an issue. The =E2=80=9Ctoo much business=E2=80=9D event happened right after the introd= uction of the IBM PC. Circuit Cellar was the third company in the country to = market an IBM PC clone. I thought it was a good idea. Everybody who couldn=E2= =80=99t get a real IBM PC started banging on our door for an MPX-16. We got $= 1 million in orders in just a few weeks! What was I supposed to do? Certainly= not what 99% of you would have done=E2=80=94I stopped taking orders!" > On 12/28/2022 6:42 PM CST Will Cooke via cctalk w= rote: >=20 >=20 > > On 12/28/2022 6:21 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrot= e: > >=20 > >=20 > > I do seem to recall some off the wall looking case in the articles. I'm n= ot going to reread them right now. I was under the misconceived assumption th= ese would all be foumd in such a case. > >=20 > Apparently they sold a LOT of them, according to Steve in this article: > Let me warn any budding entrepreneurs that these four events test your gamb= ling tactics more than your business acumen. In my case, Ciarcia=E2=80=99s Ci= rcuit Cellar was the product 30 years ago, along with the supporting manufact= uring company. It grew quickly and afforded certain luxuries (e.g., Porsches,= BMWs, Ferraris, etc.) typically necessary in our culture to designate achiev= ement. Too little business was not an issue. >=20 > Will I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by marr= ied men. Nikola Tesla =20 --===============8153117636642020182==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Dec 29 04:34:01 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PT-68K Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 20:33:37 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <599667256.4129846.1672288269919@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6288954923467439482==" --===============6288954923467439482== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Naah. If you were big time, then you spent your time with legal battles,=20 marketing, etc. and didn't get a chance to play with the fun stuff. On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, Chris via cctalk wrote: > So Columbia, Compaq, Circuit Cellar? > > It probably wouldn't have been dirt cheap to put together, over a grand, wh= ich was not a lot considering. But it seems he must have fumbled the ball. He= could habe been really big time. > > On Wednesday, December 28, 2022, 08:36:15 PM EST, Will Cooke via cctalk= wrote: > > I should probably put the right parts in. > https://circuitcellar.com/cc-blog/ciarcia-onward-upward/ > > > "Let me warn any budding entrepreneurs that these four events test your gam= bling tactics more than your business acumen. In my case, Ciarcia=E2=80=99s C= ircuit Cellar was the product 30 years ago, along with the supporting manufac= turing company. It grew quickly and afforded certain luxuries (e.g., Porsches= , BMWs, Ferraris, etc.) typically necessary in our culture to designate achie= vement. Too little business was not an issue. > > The =E2=80=9Ctoo much business=E2=80=9D event happened right after the intr= oduction of the IBM PC. Circuit Cellar was the third company in the country t= o market an IBM PC clone. I thought it was a good idea. Everybody who couldn= =E2=80=99t get a real IBM PC started banging on our door for an MPX-16. We go= t $1 million in orders in just a few weeks! What was I supposed to do? Certai= nly not what 99% of you would have done=E2=80=94I stopped taking orders!" > > > >> On 12/28/2022 6:42 PM CST Will Cooke via cctalk = wrote: >> >> >>> On 12/28/2022 6:21 PM CST Chris via cctalk wrot= e: >>> >>> >>> I do seem to recall some off the wall looking case in the articles. I'm n= ot going to reread them right now. I was under the misconceived assumption th= ese would all be foumd in such a case. >>> >> Apparently they sold a LOT of them, according to Steve in this article: >> Let me warn any budding entrepreneurs that these four events test your gam= bling tactics more than your business acumen. In my case, Ciarcia=E2=80=99s C= ircuit Cellar was the product 30 years ago, along with the supporting manufac= turing company. It grew quickly and afforded certain luxuries (e.g., Porsches= , BMWs, Ferraris, etc.) typically necessary in our culture to designate achie= vement. Too little business was not an issue. >> >> Will > > I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by ma= rried men. Nikola Tesla --===============6288954923467439482==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Dec 29 14:34:05 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Manual for MDB MLSI-LP11 Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 09:33:37 -0500 Message-ID: <6740f1ff-ddd0-c288-e015-0e8e2317e89b@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3522856666128391475==" --===============3522856666128391475== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My re-build of a BA23 11/73 system continues.  I have one of these MDB printer controllers but cannot make it do anything more that home page on the laser using RT-11 Does anybody have a manual or know where I can download one. An extensive search using google just brings up a data sheet. Happy New Year to all, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============3522856666128391475==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 04:16:00 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] wtb: mainly Intel branded 80x86 based Multibus boards Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 04:15:18 +0000 Message-ID: <288493619.4222756.1672373718967@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <288493619.4222756.1672373718967.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7455151051760359248==" --===============7455151051760359248== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And if Jonas (Stynx) from Germany is on here, please send me an e-mail. I'll = reply to private e-mails only (from anyone). --===============7455151051760359248==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 06:52:55 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] fs: Panasonic/Matsushita 9" open frame monitor Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 06:52:28 +0000 Message-ID: <273045551.4241360.1672383148347@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <273045551.4241360.1672383148347.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3581613969027070693==" --===============3581613969027070693== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 40$ + usps. New in battered box. Apparently this is monochrome and composite = (ntsc). It will require a wired connector, or simply soldering wires to a 1 s= ided card edge connection. Also requires an external 12vdc 1amp supply. A few= components are required, potentiometer, 3 diodes, and a resistor if you want= graphics. Best done by someone with prior wirimg/soldering experience, but n= ot much.=20 As is, final sale. Check or m.o. Ships from 08758. --===============3581613969027070693==-- From skogkatt007@yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 06:55:14 2022 From: skogkatt007@yahoo.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] wtb: Panasonic 15" TTL (5151 compattible) open frame monitor Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 06:54:45 +0000 Message-ID: <1146612099.4456268.1672383285217@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1146612099.4456268.1672383285217.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4854483708973763507==" --===============4854483708973763507== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Send an email please. --===============4854483708973763507==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Fri Dec 30 12:23:55 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Saturn-Calc Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 07:23:28 -0500 Message-ID: <4c5f94c9-7406-f409-cbee-0fb6299618ac@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2828948597954299264==" --===============2828948597954299264== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would like to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. Does anybody know of a source? cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============2828948597954299264==-- From mark@matlockfamily.com Fri Dec 30 19:40:30 2022 From: Mark Matlock To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 13:40:38 -0600 Message-ID: <20082909-144D-498A-A264-51CB187B9325@matlockfamily.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1251300746366564945==" --===============1251300746366564945== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 30, 2022, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from RT11= backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would like to se= e again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! >=20 > I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appear = to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. >=20 > Does anybody know of a source? >=20 > cheers, >=20 > Nigel Nigel, I=E2=80=99ve been trying to find a working distribution for PDP-11 Saturn= -Calc and Graph for some years now. I had a licensed copy many years ago for = RSX11M but it no longer works. I do have a working copy of Saturn-Calc and Gr= aph (but not WP) for VMS on my MV3100-80 but not the VMS distribution. I have managed to contact the lead programmer that developed Saturn=E2=80= =99s software through a former president of the company. The programmer belie= ves he has a copy of the source code for PDP-11 and VAX on a CDROM that is in= a storage unit. He has retired overseas and come back home where the storage= unit is a couple times a year and I=E2=80=99m hoping he can find the CDROM o= n his next trip back. I can keep you posted on our progress in trying to reco= ver this software. It helps that the programmer is interested in making the S= aturn products available as it may need to be recompiled or at least relinked= to be compatible with the newest versions of PDP-11 operating systems with Y= 2K etc.=20 We thought we had it recovered a couple years ago when nine RX50 floppie= s were found in Australia that were from a distributor that could be used to = generate new customer distributions, but there was no documentation and some = info was missing. Also, manuals for the Saturn products have not been scanned= so we are looking for them as well. If you had some specific Saturn Calc spreadsheets that you wanted data e= xtracted from, I might be able to help you with my working VMS version of Cal= c. Saturn Calc was a great product that we used a great deal back in the day.= The Saturn Graph product supported VT340s with the mouse and could generate = plots a wide variety of HP and other plotters, printers, etc. Best Regards, Mark --===============1251300746366564945==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Fri Dec 30 20:18:18 2022 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Restoring unknown format backup tapes Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 14:17:40 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6323948548519362791==" --===============6323948548519362791== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and read/restore? Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition. --===============6323948548519362791==-- From malcolm@avitech.com.au Fri Dec 30 22:15:33 2022 From: Malcolm Macleod To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 147, Issue 1 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 08:49:35 +1100 Message-ID: <0edb01d91c98$9d4d8410$d7e88c30$@avitech.com.au> In-Reply-To: <167242320822.1602.15831315297434652444@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3784981201897974243==" --===============3784981201897974243== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Message: 4 >Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 07:23:28 -0500 >From: Nigel Johnson Ham >Subject: [cctalk] Saturn-Calc >To: cctalk >Message-ID: <4c5f94c9-7406-f409-cbee-0fb6299618ac(a)gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > >Hi all, > >My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from >RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would like to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! > >I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > >Does anybody know of a source? > >cheers, > >Nigel Hi Nigel, I have what appears to be a complete set of RX50 disks for CAL, WPS and GRF. Images are here -> http://avitech.com.au/?page_id=2570 I haven't tried them. Regards, Malcolm --===============3784981201897974243==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Dec 31 01:02:12 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 17:01:35 -0800 Message-ID: <67281402-437f-ebdf-777b-2f8006e751e3@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4783543942496385050==" --===============4783543942496385050== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/30/22 12:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > read/restore? > > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? > > I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I > think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition. The tape substrate itself, being mylar, is very durable, but it's toast if stretched.  Most likely, the internal tension band has either gone slack or has broken and should be replaced, or else tape tangles can result.   Most importantly, details are necessary (what kind of carts, what drive manufacturer and model, etc.)   There are lots of potential variations.   To be frank, I hate the damned stuff. --Chuck -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer --===============4783543942496385050==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Dec 31 01:37:40 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:37:01 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <67281402-437f-ebdf-777b-2f8006e751e3@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7713968698500364874==" --===============7713968698500364874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THere were certain tape manufacturers and plastic/metal clip marks and wear patters that were typical of certain types of drives reading certain types of tapes. Maybe high resolution photos of a few used tapes will reveal clues. A tape ejected 30 times will have certain patterns of wear in certain places. I have lots of different types of tapes, I am happy to compare your used tape photos with anything I might have that would be similar. Not a guaranteed solution, but it might help narrow down candidate systems. Bill On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 8:01 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/30/22 12:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > > read/restore? > > > > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? > Then > > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? > > > > I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I > > think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition. > The tape substrate itself, being mylar, is very durable, but it's toast > if stretched. Most likely, the internal tension band has either gone > slack or has broken and should be replaced, or else tape tangles can > result. Most importantly, details are necessary (what kind of carts, > what drive manufacturer and model, etc.) There are lots of potential > variations. To be frank, I hate the damned stuff. > > --Chuck > > > -- > --Chuck > > Sent from my digital computer > --===============7713968698500364874==-- From jpstewart@personalprojects.net Sat Dec 31 01:45:41 2022 From: John-Paul Stewart To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:02:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0184504466778560095==" --===============0184504466778560095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/30/22 15:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > read/restore? > > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? It is unlikely that the tapes are in tar format, so tar on Linux won't help. The chance that they are in tar format is much higher if they're from Amix (Amiga Unix) instead of AmigaOS. There is a better possibility that the tapes were created by BRU since AmigaOS 2.x (and maybe later) included a version of that. BRU is now Argest Backup, if you need to go down that road. It is also possible that the tapes were created with any of the many third-party backup applications that existed for AmigaOS. In any case, using dd (not tar) on Linux to copy the tapes to disk to "interpret" and "sort out files afterwards" is at least a starting point. Other list members are better qualified to comment on the physical aspects of doing that without destroying the fragile old tapes. --===============0184504466778560095==-- From kgober@gmail.com Sat Dec 31 02:04:21 2022 From: Kenneth Gober To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 21:03:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4c5f94c9-7406-f409-cbee-0fb6299618ac@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9167411635044171871==" --===============9167411635044171871== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks > appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > Is it possible the images are 'physical' disk images rather than 'logical' disk images and have sector interleaving applied? That can cause things to appear in odd places. -ken --===============9167411635044171871==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Dec 31 02:04:41 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 18:04:06 -0800 Message-ID: <46b41622-ce30-28f7-5357-ea2623bda12b@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3894737695716849619==" --===============3894737695716849619== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/30/22 17:37, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > THere were certain tape manufacturers and plastic/metal clip marks and wear > patters that were typical of certain types of drives reading certain types > of tapes. Maybe high resolution photos of a few used tapes will reveal > clues. A tape ejected 30 times will have certain patterns of wear in > certain places. I have lots of different types of tapes, I am happy to > compare your used tape photos with anything I might have that would be > similar. > Not a guaranteed solution, but it might help narrow down candidate systems. > Bill > Heck, I'd just unspool a bit of the stuff, drop some Kyread on it and have a gander with the old microscope.  That can at least tell me how many tracks are involved. But being a quarter-inch cartridge leaves a lot of ground open.  For instance, what if these tapes are Iotaamat-formatted?  A regular QIC drive will have nothing to do with them.  There were other manufacturers (Cipher 525) comes to mind that do not use standard formatting techniques.  On some of the later 8mm Travan carts, the tape is will-o'-the-wisp thin. FWIW, Chuck   --===============3894737695716849619==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Sat Dec 31 03:49:00 2022 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 22:48:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <89a53990-b2c3-a25c-ef71-74ef1bc8582d@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7086187953929356415==" --===============7086187953929356415== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I went to Onyx2/Origin 2000 training in Mountain View in the building that is now the Computer History Museum and I met a lot of Gov folks but I also met a lot of oil people who used SGIs to crunch data. At the time no one could touch them but that too changed As for workstations the one I remember being a real competitor was Intergraph. They had dual pentium pro boxes with proprietary cards that ran NT and Softimage. Microsoft bought Softimage to compete with SGI and SGI bought Alias Wavefront On Sat, Dec 24, 2022, 4:15 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Really without the US government as a customer I wonder how many of these > companies could have made it on industry alone. > > - Ethan > --===============7086187953929356415==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 31 04:44:27 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 23:44:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2312404141785682690==" --===============2312404141785682690== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I have TSX/RX02 versions of Saturn stuff out there already. Where is it.... Ah here: https://www.crystel.com/pdp/ Wow, I have a dsm11 disk image there too? Weird. And the XT Tool kit guide (prior to when it was called the Pro/350). Let me know if those contain anything interesting. Chris On 12/30/2022 9:03 PM, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks >> appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. >> > Is it possible the images are 'physical' disk images rather than 'logical' > disk images and have > sector interleaving applied? That can cause things to appear in odd > places. > > -ken --===============2312404141785682690==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 31 09:00:51 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] How to print old files. Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 02:00:22 -0700 Message-ID: <77511893-b967-7349-2bb0-a6d0f7af2905@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6425638992370620195==" --===============6425638992370620195== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep the ← and ↑ 's and not printing _ and ^ ? Ben. --===============6425638992370620195==-- From hpyle@cabezal.com Sat Dec 31 14:41:34 2022 From: Hugh Pyle To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 09:33:35 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <77511893-b967-7349-2bb0-a6d0f7af2905@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6403587341800163907==" --===============6403587341800163907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a 'Teleprinter' font, which is close, but doesn't include the backward arrow: https://web.archive.org/web/20000819043545/ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/= mzanzig/FREE.HTM On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 4:00 AM ben via cctalk wrote: > How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep > the =E2=86=90 and =E2=86=91 's > > and not printing _ and ^ ? > > Ben. > > > > > > --===============6403587341800163907==-- From labomb_s@yahoo.com Sat Dec 31 14:57:17 2022 From: Scott LaBombard To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 14:56:24 +0000 Message-ID: <1139967668.3339176.1672498584861@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <77511893-b967-7349-2bb0-a6d0f7af2905@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5021353535164756581==" --===============5021353535164756581== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember having to do something like that some years ago. If the ASCII fil= e isn't too long and you can manage with manual edits, you can load the docum= ent into an editor that supports 'alt' codes. On Windows, I just tried Micros= oft Word. Hold the alt key down and enter the 2-digit code (on the numeric keypad) for = the symbol you wish... =E2=86=91 is 24, and =E2=86=90 is 27. Just did a quick= test and both printed fine on my HP printer, although as I recall the result= ing symbols didn't look quite like the arrows in the original document. On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 04:00:33 AM EST, ben via cctalk wrote: =20 =20 How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep=20 the =E2=86=90 and =E2=86=91 's and not printing _ and ^ ? Ben. =20 --===============5021353535164756581==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Sat Dec 31 16:32:38 2022 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Manual for MDB MLSI-LP11 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:23:57 -0500 Message-ID: <1903bca7-bf1c-a1b6-fbd7-b33498ba7412@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6740f1ff-ddd0-c288-e015-0e8e2317e89b@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0693293780237411765==" --===============0693293780237411765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/29/2022 9:33 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > My re-build of a BA23 11/73 system continues.  I have one of these MDB > printer controllers but cannot make it do anything more that home page > on the laser using RT-11 > > Does anybody have a manual or know where I can download one. > > An extensive search using google just brings up a data sheet. > > Happy New Year to all, > > Nigel > > I remember having a 11/03 system at work back in 1984 that had an attached printer with what looked like an ordinary parallel printer connector.  However, the signal protocols for the printer interface were different than the standard parallel interface everyone was using on their PC's.  I think they were close but you needed a printer that understood the DEC protocols.  Shouldn't be surprising to anyone from that era. Doug --===============0693293780237411765==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Sat Dec 31 16:37:06 2022 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:28:25 -0500 Message-ID: <35185fa8-dc89-5a1d-a7f8-a17e7a6f3c6f@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <4c5f94c9-7406-f409-cbee-0fb6299618ac@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4583036146518152449==" --===============4583036146518152449== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/30/2022 7:23 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from > RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would > like to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! > > I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks > appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > > Does anybody know of a source? > > cheers, > > Nigel > > I have some DEC format 8 inch floppies from the mid 1980's that may have Saturn WP on it.  It rings a bell, I think I had a copy at one time.  Long, long time ago.  I can't read the floppies (got no drive), anyone in the Wash DC area that can read them would help. Doug --===============4583036146518152449==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sat Dec 31 16:39:32 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:39:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <35185fa8-dc89-5a1d-a7f8-a17e7a6f3c6f@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5637694604638508885==" --===============5637694604638508885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/31/22 11:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 12/30/2022 7:23 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from >> RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would >> like to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! >> >> I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks >> appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. >> >> Does anybody know of a source? >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> >> > I have some DEC format 8 inch floppies from the mid 1980's that may have > Saturn WP on it.  It rings a bell, I think I had a copy at one time. > Long, long time ago.  I can't read the floppies (got no drive), anyone > in the Wash DC area that can read them would help. Tim Shoppa? bill --===============5637694604638508885==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sat Dec 31 18:50:27 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 21:12:46 -0500 Message-ID: <68914cf4-9f2f-45e8-9bdd-fd37cafa56de@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7559817525754651289==" --===============7559817525754651289== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I have TSX/RX02 versions of Saturn stuff out there already. Where is it.... Ah here: https://www.crystel.com/pdp/ Wow, I have a dsm11 disk image there too? Weird. And the XT Tool kit guide (prior to when it was called the Pro/350). Let me know if those contain anything interesting. Chris On 12/30/2022 9:03 PM, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks >> appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. >> > Is it possible the images are 'physical' disk images rather than 'logical' > disk images and have > sector interleaving applied? That can cause things to appear in odd places. > > -ken --===============7559817525754651289==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sat Dec 31 18:50:44 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 12:55:36 -0500 Message-ID: <5d430876-8e07-904e-1a73-b4f776c543cf@beaker.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580AAB10CA87FC8FAA4DF21EDF19=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6186451851535367263==" --===============6186451851535367263== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> I have some DEC format 8 inch floppies from the mid 1980's that may >> have Saturn WP on it.  It rings a bell, I think I had a copy at one >> time. Long, long time ago.  I can't read the floppies (got no drive), >> anyone in the Wash DC area that can read them would help. Well, I'm located south of Baltimore and have been doing pdp11's for about 30 years now. Currently I have running and tested the following equipment: 11/83 with ESDI, TK70, RL02, and RX02 drives 11/23+ with RQDX3, TK50, RX50 drives 11/24 with 1mb of memory and an RL11 controller 2 pdp8/L's fully operational, no peripherals. 11/05, 16kw memory, RX11 Professional/380 with RD53, DECNA, and RX50's. PDT11/150 that works (fun but not too useful) One of Dave Gesswin's MFM emulators and a pile of RD50-54 drives One of those Gotek floppy things flashed for RX50 support I can reconfigure one of the RL02's to be an RL01 for read only if needed. So if you need media checked out I can give it a go. Somewhere I have an HP SCSI 9 track drive that could be pressed into service and one of these days I'll fix and test the CDC 9457 Lark drives. CZ --===============6186451851535367263==-- From steveplatz@lavabit.com Sat Dec 31 19:53:27 2022 From: Steve Platz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Debugging possible RAM faults on OCC1 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:43:44 -0800 Message-ID: <20221231194344.GA5223@charmes> In-Reply-To: <167250960701.1602.17452442834799907655@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0221335786553042446==" --===============0221335786553042446== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recently got an Osborne 1a, which needed a lot of cleaning and had probably= been stored in a barn for some time. After getting the drive parts to move f= reely again and removing a blown cap on the power supply, the machine will st= art up and the screen is green, although it's just showing some random charac= ters. I understand from someone's advice that some RAM may have gone bad. At = this point I'm not sure if I should continue to try to get this going, or jus= t resign it to someone with better resources for diagnosing the issues. If an= yone has some advice for moving forward with this, I'd be interested to liste= n. Some context: this is my first such restoration endeavor. Thanks - Steve On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 12:00:07PM -0600, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wro= te: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >=20 > To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or > body 'help' to > cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org >=20 > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner(a)classiccmp.org >=20 > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." >=20 > Today's Topics: >=20 > 1. Re: Saturn-Calc (Mark Matlock) > 2. Restoring unknown format backup tapes (John Herron) > 3. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 147, Issue 1 (Malcolm Macleod) > 4. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (Chuck Guzis) > 5. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (Bill Degnan) > 6. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (John-Paul Stewart) > 7. Re: Saturn-Calc (Kenneth Gober) > 8. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (Chuck Guzis) > 9. Re: SGI vs. Mac (Christian Liendo) > 10. Re: Saturn-Calc (Chris Zach) > 11. How to print old files. (ben) > 12. Re: How to print old files. (Hugh Pyle) > 13. Re: How to print old files. (Scott LaBombard) > 14. Re: Manual for MDB MLSI-LP11 (Douglas Taylor) > 15. Re: Saturn-Calc (Douglas Taylor) > 16. Re: Saturn-Calc (Bill Gunshannon) >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 13:40:38 -0600 > From: Mark Matlock > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <20082909-144D-498A-A264-51CB187B9325(a)matlockfamily.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >=20 >=20 > > On Dec 30, 2022, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote: > >=20 > > Hi all, > >=20 > > My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from RT= 11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would like to = see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! > >=20 > > I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appea= r to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > >=20 > > Does anybody know of a source? > >=20 > > cheers, > >=20 > > Nigel >=20 > Nigel, > I=E2=80=99ve been trying to find a working distribution for PDP-11 Satu= rn-Calc and Graph for some years now. I had a licensed copy many years ago fo= r RSX11M but it no longer works. I do have a working copy of Saturn-Calc and = Graph (but not WP) for VMS on my MV3100-80 but not the VMS distribution. >=20 > I have managed to contact the lead programmer that developed Saturn=E2= =80=99s software through a former president of the company. The programmer be= lieves he has a copy of the source code for PDP-11 and VAX on a CDROM that is= in a storage unit. He has retired overseas and come back home where the stor= age unit is a couple times a year and I=E2=80=99m hoping he can find the CDRO= M on his next trip back. I can keep you posted on our progress in trying to r= ecover this software. It helps that the programmer is interested in making th= e Saturn products available as it may need to be recompiled or at least relin= ked to be compatible with the newest versions of PDP-11 operating systems wit= h Y2K etc.=20 >=20 > We thought we had it recovered a couple years ago when nine RX50 flopp= ies were found in Australia that were from a distributor that could be used t= o generate new customer distributions, but there was no documentation and som= e info was missing. Also, manuals for the Saturn products have not been scann= ed so we are looking for them as well. >=20 > If you had some specific Saturn Calc spreadsheets that you wanted data= extracted from, I might be able to help you with my working VMS version of C= alc. Saturn Calc was a great product that we used a great deal back in the da= y. The Saturn Graph product supported VT340s with the mouse and could generat= e plots a wide variety of HP and other plotters, printers, etc. >=20 > Best Regards, > Mark >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 14:17:40 -0600 > From: John Herron > Subject: [cctalk] Restoring unknown format backup tapes > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" >=20 > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > read/restore? >=20 > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? >=20 > I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I > think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition. >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 08:49:35 +1100 > From: "Malcolm Macleod" > Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 147, Issue 1 > To: > Cc: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <0edb01d91c98$9d4d8410$d7e88c30$@avitech.com.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >=20 >=20 > >Message: 4 > >Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 07:23:28 -0500 > >From: Nigel Johnson Ham > >Subject: [cctalk] Saturn-Calc > >To: cctalk > >Message-ID: <4c5f94c9-7406-f409-cbee-0fb6299618ac(a)gmail.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed > > > >Hi all, > > > >My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from > >RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would like > to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! > > > >I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appear > to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > > > >Does anybody know of a source? > > > >cheers, > > > >Nigel >=20 > Hi Nigel, >=20 > I have what appears to be a complete set of RX50 disks for CAL, WPS and GRF. >=20 > Images are here -> http://avitech.com.au/?page_id=3D2570 >=20 > I haven't tried them. >=20 > Regards, > Malcolm >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 17:01:35 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes > To: John Herron via cctalk > Message-ID: <67281402-437f-ebdf-777b-2f8006e751e3(a)sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 >=20 > On 12/30/22 12:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > > read/restore? > > > > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Th= en > > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? > > > > I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I > > think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition. > The tape substrate itself, being mylar, is very durable, but it's toast > if stretched.=C2=A0 Most likely, the internal tension band has either gone > slack or has broken and should be replaced, or else tape tangles can > result.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Most importantly, details are necessary (what kind of c= arts, > what drive manufacturer and model, etc.)=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are lots of pote= ntial > variations.=C2=A0=C2=A0 To be frank, I hate the damned stuff. >=20 > --Chuck >=20 >=20 > --=20 > --Chuck >=20 > Sent from my digital computer >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:37:01 -0500 > From: Bill Degnan > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" >=20 > THere were certain tape manufacturers and plastic/metal clip marks and wear > patters that were typical of certain types of drives reading certain types > of tapes. Maybe high resolution photos of a few used tapes will reveal > clues. A tape ejected 30 times will have certain patterns of wear in > certain places. I have lots of different types of tapes, I am happy to > compare your used tape photos with anything I might have that would be > similar. > Not a guaranteed solution, but it might help narrow down candidate systems. > Bill >=20 > On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 8:01 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 > > On 12/30/22 12:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > > > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > > > read/restore? > > > > > > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > > > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > > > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? > > Then > > > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? > > > > > > I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I > > > think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition. > > The tape substrate itself, being mylar, is very durable, but it's toast > > if stretched. Most likely, the internal tension band has either gone > > slack or has broken and should be replaced, or else tape tangles can > > result. Most importantly, details are necessary (what kind of carts, > > what drive manufacturer and model, etc.) There are lots of potential > > variations. To be frank, I hate the damned stuff. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > -- > > --Chuck > > > > Sent from my digital computer > > >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:02:37 -0500 > From: John-Paul Stewart > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 >=20 > On 12/30/22 15:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > > read/restore? > >=20 > > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Th= en > > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? >=20 > It is unlikely that the tapes are in tar format, so tar on Linux won't > help. The chance that they are in tar format is much higher if they're > from Amix (Amiga Unix) instead of AmigaOS. >=20 > There is a better possibility that the tapes were created by BRU since > AmigaOS 2.x (and maybe later) included a version of that. BRU is now > Argest Backup, if you need to go down that road. >=20 > It is also possible that the tapes were created with any of the many > third-party backup applications that existed for AmigaOS. >=20 > In any case, using dd (not tar) on Linux to copy the tapes to disk to > "interpret" and "sort out files afterwards" is at least a starting point. >=20 > Other list members are better qualified to comment on the physical > aspects of doing that without destroying the fragile old tapes. >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 21:03:37 -0500 > From: Kenneth Gober > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" >=20 > On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 > > I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks > > appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > > >=20 > Is it possible the images are 'physical' disk images rather than 'logical' > disk images and have > sector interleaving applied? That can cause things to appear in odd places. >=20 > -ken >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 18:04:06 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes > To: Bill Degnan via cctalk > Message-ID: <46b41622-ce30-28f7-5357-ea2623bda12b(a)sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 >=20 > On 12/30/22 17:37, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > THere were certain tape manufacturers and plastic/metal clip marks and we= ar > > patters that were typical of certain types of drives reading certain types > > of tapes. Maybe high resolution photos of a few used tapes will reveal > > clues. A tape ejected 30 times will have certain patterns of wear in > > certain places. I have lots of different types of tapes, I am happy to > > compare your used tape photos with anything I might have that would be > > similar. > > Not a guaranteed solution, but it might help narrow down candidate system= s. > > Bill > > > Heck, I'd just unspool a bit of the stuff, drop some Kyread on it and > have a gander with the old microscope.=C2=A0 That can at least tell me how > many tracks are involved. >=20 > But being a quarter-inch cartridge leaves a lot of ground open.=C2=A0 For > instance, what if these tapes are Iotaamat-formatted?=C2=A0 A regular QIC > drive will have nothing to do with them.=C2=A0 There were other manufacture= rs > (Cipher 525) comes to mind that do not use standard formatting > techniques.=C2=A0 On some of the later 8mm Travan carts, the tape is > will-o'-the-wisp thin. >=20 > FWIW, > Chuck >=20 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 22:48:23 -0500 > From: Christian Liendo > Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" >=20 > I went to Onyx2/Origin 2000 training in Mountain View in the building that > is now the Computer History Museum and I met a lot of Gov folks but I also > met a lot of oil people who used SGIs to crunch data. At the time no one > could touch them but that too changed >=20 > As for workstations the one I remember being a real competitor was > Intergraph. They had dual pentium pro boxes with proprietary cards that ran > NT and Softimage. Microsoft bought Softimage to compete with SGI and SGI > bought Alias Wavefront >=20 > On Sat, Dec 24, 2022, 4:15 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 > > > > Really without the US government as a customer I wonder how many of these > > companies could have made it on industry alone. > > > > - Ethan > > >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 10 > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 23:44:03 -0500 > From: Chris Zach > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed >=20 > I think I have TSX/RX02 versions of Saturn stuff out there already.=20 > Where is it.... >=20 > Ah here: https://www.crystel.com/pdp/ >=20 > Wow, I have a dsm11 disk image there too? Weird. And the XT Tool kit=20 > guide (prior to when it was called the Pro/350). >=20 > Let me know if those contain anything interesting. >=20 > Chris >=20 > On 12/30/2022 9:03 PM, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks > >> appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > >> > > Is it possible the images are 'physical' disk images rather than 'logical' > > disk images and have > > sector interleaving applied? That can cause things to appear in odd=20 > > places. > > > > -ken >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 02:00:22 -0700 > From: ben > Subject: [cctalk] How to print old files. > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <77511893-b967-7349-2bb0-a6d0f7af2905(a)jetnet.ab.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed >=20 > How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep=20 > the =E2=86=90 and =E2=86=91 's >=20 > and not printing _ and ^ ? >=20 > Ben. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 09:33:35 -0500 > From: Hugh Pyle > Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" >=20 > There's a 'Teleprinter' font, which is close, but doesn't include the > backward arrow: > https://web.archive.org/web/20000819043545/ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage= s/mzanzig/FREE.HTM >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 4:00 AM ben via cctalk > wrote: >=20 > > How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep > > the =E2=86=90 and =E2=86=91 's > > > > and not printing _ and ^ ? > > > > Ben. > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 14:56:24 +0000 (UTC) > From: Scott LaBombard > Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. > To: ben via cctalk > Message-ID: <1139967668.3339176.1672498584861(a)mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 >=20 > I remember having to do something like that some years ago. If the ASCII f= ile isn't too long and you can manage with manual edits, you can load the doc= ument into an editor that supports 'alt' codes. On Windows, I just tried Micr= osoft Word. > Hold the alt key down and enter the 2-digit code (on the numeric keypad) fo= r the symbol you wish... =E2=86=91 is 24, and =E2=86=90 is 27. Just did a qui= ck test and both printed fine on my HP printer, although as I recall the resu= lting symbols didn't look quite like the arrows in the original document. > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 04:00:33 AM EST, ben via cctalk wrote: =20 > =20 > How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep=20 > the =E2=86=90 and =E2=86=91 's >=20 > and not printing _ and ^ ? >=20 > Ben. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:23:57 -0500 > From: Douglas Taylor > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Manual for MDB MLSI-LP11 > To: Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk > Message-ID: <1903bca7-bf1c-a1b6-fbd7-b33498ba7412(a)comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed >=20 > On 12/29/2022 9:33 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > > My re-build of a BA23 11/73 system continues.=C2=A0 I have one of these M= DB=20 > > printer controllers but cannot make it do anything more that home page=20 > > on the laser using RT-11 > > > > Does anybody have a manual or know where I can download one. > > > > An extensive search using google just brings up a data sheet. > > > > Happy New Year to all, > > > > Nigel > > > > > I remember having a 11/03 system at work back in 1984 that had an=20 > attached printer with what looked like an ordinary parallel printer=20 > connector.=C2=A0 However, the signal protocols for the printer interface we= re=20 > different than the standard parallel interface everyone was using on=20 > their PC's.=C2=A0 I think they were close but you needed a printer that=20 > understood the DEC protocols.=C2=A0 Shouldn't be surprising to anyone from = > that era. >=20 > Doug >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 15 > Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:28:25 -0500 > From: Douglas Taylor > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc > To: Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk > Message-ID: <35185fa8-dc89-5a1d-a7f8-a17e7a6f3c6f(a)comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed >=20 > On 12/30/2022 7:23 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from=20 > > RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would=20 > > like to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! > > > > I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks=20 > > appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > > > > Does anybody know of a source? > > > > cheers, > > > > Nigel > > > > > I have some DEC format 8 inch floppies from the mid 1980's that may have=20 > Saturn WP on it.=C2=A0 It rings a bell, I think I had a copy at one time.= =C2=A0=20 > Long, long time ago.=C2=A0 I can't read the floppies (got no drive), anyone= =20 > in the Wash DC area that can read them would help. >=20 > Doug >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 16 > Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:39:04 -0500 > From: Bill Gunshannon > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Message-ID: prd06.prod.outlook.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed >=20 > On 12/31/22 11:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/30/2022 7:23 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from=20 > >> RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would=20 > >> like to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! > >> > >> I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks=20 > >> appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > >> > >> Does anybody know of a source? > >> > >> cheers, > >> > >> Nigel > >> > >> > > I have some DEC format 8 inch floppies from the mid 1980's that may have = > > Saturn WP on it.=C2=A0 It rings a bell, I think I had a copy at one time.= =20 > > Long, long time ago.=C2=A0 I can't read the floppies (got no drive), anyo= ne=20 > > in the Wash DC area that can read them would help. >=20 > Tim Shoppa? >=20 > bill >=20 >=20 >=20 > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 148, Issue 1 > ************************************** --===============0221335786553042446==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Dec 31 20:08:25 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Debugging possible RAM faults on OCC1 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 12:07:56 -0800 Message-ID: <36705e3f-5d4b-1548-c32d-08d22c60a3c5@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <20221231194344.GA5223@charmes> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4528124452936506646==" --===============4528124452936506646== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/31/22 11:43, Steve Platz via cctalk wrote: > I recently got an Osborne 1a, which needed a lot of cleaning and had probab= ly been stored in a barn for some time. After getting the drive parts to move= freely again and removing a blown cap on the power supply, the machine will = start up and the screen is green, although it's just showing some random char= acters. I understand from someone's advice that some RAM may have gone bad. A= t this point I'm not sure if I should continue to try to get this going, or j= ust resign it to someone with better resources for diagnosing the issues. If = anyone has some advice for moving forward with this, I'd be interested to lis= ten. Some context: this is my first such restoration endeavor. Thanks - Steve > You're actually pretty far along, as opposed to having a brick.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Because of the storage conditions, do clean any sockets and contacts to see if some of the problems can be resolved.=C2=A0 Bad RAM on a system this old isn't unusual.=C2=A0 Schematics are on Bitsavers.org. Cheers, Chuck --===============4528124452936506646==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 31 23:34:45 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fixing a MSV11-QC, tables wrong? Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 18:34:18 -0500 Message-ID: <10d098da-fd6a-82f1-4518-b7562ca8adc7@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6569277843503156189==" --===============6569277843503156189== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So I have an MSV11-QC (the 4gb Q Bus memory board) that has a failed bit. On an 11/73 it throws the following error: Expected data = 125252 (1010 1010 1010 1010 Bad data = 121252 (1010 0010 1010 1010) Address = 10015140 Which puts the error in the top 2mb (1mw), bit 4000. No biggie, consulting the matrix at: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-Q_QBUS_memory Shows this to be bank 4, bit 4000 or E85. Cut out E85, popped the board in (to double check before replacing) and I see this: Expected data = 125252 Bad data = 121252 Address = 02015140 Ooops. That would be decimal 531,040 which puts it in bank 1? Which should be E88, where did I go wrong here? Or is the table for the MSV11-Q only valid for the 64k ones and not the 256k ones? If so the bits may be right, but the banks are different. Anyone want to cross-check this or my maths? Thanks! CZ PS: Sorry if duplicates are getting sent to the list. I'm retiring cz(a)alembic.crystel.com and replacing it with cz(a)beaker.crystel.com. If the list manager could update my email I would appreciate! --===============6569277843503156189==-- From cz@beaker.crystel.com Sun Jan 1 14:19:14 2023 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fixing a MSV11-QC, tables wrong? Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 17:33:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0992901945240971967==" --===============0992901945240971967== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So I have an MSV11-QC (the 4gb Q Bus memory board) that has a failed bit. On an 11/73 it throws the following error: Expected data = 125252 (1010 1010 1010 1010 Bad data = 121252 (1010 0010 1010 1010) Address = 10015140 Which puts the error in the top 2mb (1mw), bit 4000. No biggie, consulting the matrix at: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-Q_QBUS_memory Shows this to be bank 4, bit 4000 or E85. Cut out E85, popped the board in (to double check before replacing) and I see this: Expected data = 125252 Bad data = 121252 Address = 02015140 Ooops. That would be decimal 531,040 which puts it in bank 1? Which should be E88, where did I go wrong here? Or is the table for the MSV11-Q only valid for the 64k ones and not the 256k ones? If so the bits may be right, but the banks are different. Anyone want to cross-check this or my maths? Thanks! CZ --===============0992901945240971967==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:25 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 10:22:37 -0600 Message-ID: <7fcce723-9b66-0314-7d33-ad536be90347@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2529088484986277381==" --===============2529088484986277381== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After seeing way more than a dozen messages about what is on topic I=20 question whether this topic is on topic. Tongue firmly planting in cheek=F0=9F=98=81. Maybe we should apply some topical antiseptic and kill off this topic. On 12/21/2022 1:39 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 12/21/2022 1:22 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> =C2=A0 Ok for cbm and atari yes I'm familiar with most of those. I meant=20 >> in general. And specifically where would you go for server related=20 >> discussions for pII through socket 771? > > I admit Pentium and newer forums are a bit harder to find, but some=20 > stuff is at: > > https://forums.tomshardware.com/ > > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?forums/pentium-2nd-and-3rd-generation-cla= ss-machines.1230007/=20 > > > https://forums.anandtech.com/categories/hardware-and-technology.27/ > > The first two are probably closer to what you're looking for, though I=20 > don't see server-specific groups. > > Jim > --===============2529088484986277381==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:25 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: what is on topic? Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 13:07:39 -0600 Message-ID: <432b7914-0a0f-4218-d7b6-a8d946817b9f@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3802842991784814223==" --===============3802842991784814223== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If old 8 bits are fun, older 12 bits are even more fun (50% more fun by word size). And who needs BASIC in ROM (or on cassette), just toggle in your program with the switch register😁 or load it by paper tape😛. On 12/21/2022 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Old 8-bits are fun. All you need is a television generally and you're ready > to go. Power it up, drop into BASIC, and start doing stuff. > > With a PC you need a keyboard, a monitor, a mouse probably, a desktop, some > software, etc. How cumbersome. And uninteresting. And boring. > > Maybe not the greatest comparison but that's why I don't come to the > ClassicCmp maillist expecting PC discussions. > > Sellam > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 11:22 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > >> Ok for cbm and atari yes I'm familiar with most of those. I meant in >> general. And specifically where would you go for server related discussions >> for pII through socket 771? Every classic/vintage forum seems to adhere to >> a classic in it's own right (but perhaps totally valid) definition of >> obsolete hardware and software. Remember before this stuff was classic it >> was overwhelmingly considered to be obsolete junk. Win98/2000/XP has been >> moderately collectible for a while. Don't care what category it falls into. >> Socket 775 stuff is more or less just obsolete junk. There's a grouping >> between and contemporary somewhat with those 2 and that's the early-ish >> server class, which no one may _ever_ care much about, because it's >> comparitively rare (few can relate) and lacks agp, so less then ideal for >> gaming. So where do I go for those discussions? >> >> As an aside 2000+\- beige boxes have become pretty collectible, and the >> larger server cases like an Inwin A500 has a chassis that slides out. Real >> nifty. It'll take a full size ssi-eeb mobo, and standard atx. If someone >> gets their hands on 1 they'll likely toss the serverboard and replace it >> with something more appropriate for gaming. >> >> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 01:49:24 AM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> >> On 12/21/2022 12:28 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >>> I keep hearing allusions to many forums. I think there are very few. I >> don't do FB. >> >> There are many web forums. Just for CBM, there's lemon 64, vcforum, >> atariage (yes, CBM on atariage), denial, Everything 64, and 6502.org >> handles a few things. If you can grok German, there's forum64.de >> >> Mailing lists include cbm-hackers. >> >> Apple, TI, Atari all have similar. AtariAge handles all of them >> nominally. Retro Hackers also handles multiple. >> >> Jim >> >> >> --===============3802842991784814223==--